I have just read the Transit Authority's RTO Employees Newsletter- "Running Times". There is extensive coverage about the new R142's. All cars are expected to be in full passanger service by the end of 2001. The number 7 line will be receiving R62A cars according to TA Vice President Joseph Hoffman. These cars will be coming from the Number 6 Line. The article describes the many features of the R142's and states that these cars are expected to remain in service for 40 years.They are also expected to travel 100,000 miles between mechanical failures. The cars have 2 air conditioning systems so that if one fails, the other will remain operational. They also have increased soundproofing, and an air bag suspension system for a quieter and smoother ride. The R143's for the IND and BMT division are expected to arrive in the beginning of 2001, the article states.
Joseph Hoffman is the Subway Division Senior Vice President. He has the final word on car assignments, design, and maintenance of the fleet. One thing, I wonder. Will there be enough R62A's for the number 7 line? There will be 10 cars, not 11 since these are married pairs.
Only time will tell if this will work out. I guess we will see when this plan takes effect at the end of the year.
what happens to the #6 line then ?? and where do the WF33-36 cars go ??
so we have to see until the end of the year ?? I was told the redbirds would ride last on the # 7 !!!!
by many tranist workers..etc.... oh well this story does seem to change with every day !!!!
lots of luck expecting the 142s to remain in service the way the long lived - WF-33-36s did !!
however i would belleve this with a r 62 !!!! dont count on these computer controlled air conditioning cars
to flawelessly perform for 40 years straight with too many complex systems to go wrong !!!
I will never forget how in atlanta georgia with a brand new system and brand new trains how often the
on board computers failed ( including climate controls ) many of them had to be bypassed and overidden !!!frozen doors etc..
all anyone can do is hope any new junk train can last for at least 10 years !! even here in los angeles
the rolling stock is showing aging and decay and this is southern california !!
I'd bet you twenty dollars that if I offered you a cab ride in one of those R142's to videotape the ride, you would take it. All cars, even the R26s had "teething problems" when they were new. The R10s had truck problems when new. As well as the R46, which is probably the better of the fleet reliability wise.It happened with Septa, BArt and will enevitably happen with the TA again. Tell us something we DON"T know.
you would have to allow me to shoot a vidieo from the inside of the transverse cab !! center railfan window etc...
i probably would like the clear unscratched up glass and new glass view from the center window !!
but how would the new car handle the same old beat up tracks smoother ???? we will see !!!!
TREVOR LOGAN says this fall he could put me inside so i could shoot the first railfan vidieo with
the new R -142s so i want you to know i would really enjoy that !! the new unscratched up glass would make
a railfan vidieo look like an old r 21-22- split window clear no glass view !! ( look foward to shooting inside the cab) !!
I had posted this info about one month ago. Nothing has changed since
R62A cars can be configured into 11 car trains, with one single and 2 5 car sets making up a train. I wonder where the extra R62A cars will be coming from, as their aren't enough on the 6 line to completely equip the 7 line.
They will probably come from the 3 Line. They run in single cars and 5-Car sets.
They can also be confgured into 6 car sets.
Darn it! I promised all my friends (non-railfan) that there would be nice new cars (142s) on the 7 line in a few years. Well, most of those friends haven't even been on the Manhattan IRT so it will be new to them.
They have only 250 R62A on the #6 line (#1651-1900); don't think that's enough to field a full fleet on the #7 - they need something like 300 cars not counting spares.
Wayne
man!!! stop making sense !!!.................
Most likely, the 7 will wind up with a mix, just as the 6 has now.
-Hank
Hopefully the mix will be of R-142s and R-62s.
NO REDBIRDS ON THE 7!!!!
dont hold your breath !
I don't know the car count for each line. Also in a few years when all is said and done and the 325 additional cars are received for the IRT to run increased service and all the redbirds are gone, then the puzzle as to where the R62 and 62A's be assigned will be solved. I did read the employee newsletter. I heard Reuter say at one time he wants all Lex. trains be R142's. And of course Mosholu Yd. does not have enough R62's to completely outfit the #4 line completely right now. I like the #7 getting R62A's as these cars have traditional, proven technology. Run the unlinked R62A in the middle of the train with the conductor so alternate operating positions are availiable if needed. I can envision this if I can approximate the car service requirements accurately: #1 gets all R62's (and 62A's if additional cars are needed; #2, 4, 5, & 6 would be R142's; #3, 7 & shuttle get R62A's.
1886-1890 and 1896-1900 are on the 3 line
BM34x
Yeah, right!
Again, they're saying they're going to assign R62A's to the 7 train. How many times have they said that before and never did it? The 7 is not getting R62A's. It's not going to happen. There's been speculation on this board off and on about R62A's going from the 6 to the 7 for so long. I've got to see it to believe it.
They will start to migrate over from the 6 to the 7 a train at a time beginning in June (at the earliest) when the R-142s successfully complete their qualification testing and regular deliveries begin.
IF they have proven themself successful by that time ??
That's what I meant by passing the qualification test.
We shall see . . .
You know what is next for the No7 line - OPTO. All the signs are there. Full width cabs, self contained line. We've seen it all before.
Simon
Swindon UK
that would be dangerous!! ..( like the 142s)...!..how are you going ot operate OPTO on the flushing #7 safely??
The same way as most other countries run their systems. Where there is a will there is a way. OPTO is as I understand at already in use on the G line late at night.
Simon
Swindon UK
If (when) the Number 7 line goes OPTO, what will happen to the Conductors??
Will they be offered train operator/Motor(wo)man positions as a promotion, or re-deployed to other roles within the TA.
Regards
Rob :^)
The #7 line can not go OPTO! You cannot run eleven car trains with only the motorman. on a foggy night or bright day he probably couldn't see the red lights on the last four cars to see if someone's stuck in the doors. The G has opto at night because it only runs four car trains! And anyway, railfans will protest the addition of transverse cab cars on the line with one of the best views in the city and demand that the TA convert them back to half-length cab cars (the TA of course won't, but there will still be protesting, at least on this board).
With R62A cars, the 7 can indeed go OPTO at night, with 5 car trains.
AS much as I am not in favour of OPTO it is enevitable. Closed circuit TV will ensure that long trains do not pose safety problems, trains will run as 10 car with perhaps extra trains being run. Trains themselves may even be fitted with CCTV. I am sure that it will happen and the introduction of the R62a's with full width cabs is the starter
i have seen vidieo cameras on doors in the back etc........a lot more to maintain !!....... like this on buses what happens when the vidieo fails ?? less trains ??
solution ; RE-HIRE CONDUCTOR.s.....!
What happens when a conductor calls in sick? You get a new guy in.
What happens when the camera breaks? You install a new one.
I didn't know the 7 had shorter trains at night.
i didnt either when i was there at night last november 1999 and march 2000 !!......
Me too, I thought they ran 11 cars 24/7........I just don't think OPTO will happen at all once the R62A are re-assigned there. The ridership is just too heavy. Service is too frequent. That one man would have a long walk if a door hangs up in the last car, he/she also has a lot of cars to check in case of a BIE due to a pulled energency cord, or a lot of cabs to check if some low life breaks into a cab and starts to make unauthorized announcements/obscenities on the PA system. Or maybe y'all want OPTO and just put TSS's at every other station! More chiefs than indians?
One more thing. Don't they run trains on the #7 90 seconds apart during the rush? And every second counts. Because of OPTO, there is a delay of several seconds at every station as the T/O has to take a full service brake, move to the door position, insert the key and open/close doors. Then another several seconds as he gets back into the seat and releases the brakes. Those extra seconds will add up to minutes and fewer trains would have to run due to increased running time even if it is 2 minutes.
The way to make OPTO more effective is to have flat screen video monitors in the cab.
Nobody is trying to justify using OPTO on the 7 during the rush hours. However, nightime OPTO service is feasible, and will probably be instituted when the R62's get x-fered to the Flushing line.
i could not see this at stations like 5th avenue...and sone other station... with ..11 car trains??.....!!!
Not with 11 cars, but with a single 5 car unit, like other OPTO trains.
But then you've got the ballgames. You most certainly cannot run 5-car trains game days. They run 10-cars in July and August when they pull the R33s from the trains. Baseball loads are almost always SRO. Afte rgames, they generally have 2 platform conductors at the station, and they still can't get the trains out of there on time. I don't think Opto will work on the 7 any time of day, until the line is semi-automated. The only way it will work is if the doors open automatically and the trains start themselves, similar to WMATA.
-Hank
Don't worry this year. You won't need 10 or 11 cars for a last place team. But there will be S.R.O. on the Jerome Av Line, especially at 161 & River. You'll need 20 cars on that line!!!
Last place team? Does the 7 stop at Turner field?
I hear the Expos aren't too thrilled with the prospect of (off his) Rocker being traded to them.
The Mets in last place? Puh-leeeaze!! This isn't the late 70s or 1993.
Yes, game days would require full length train service. But non-game nights, OPTO would work fine.
Moving to the door position is really a moot point. All but 4 platforms on this line are on the same side of the train as the motorman's position. Additionally, the motorman need only be looking out when closing the doors. The doors could be opened from the motorman's regular position. But again, The ridership on the 7 is just too heavy for the line to go OPTO at any hour unless it's semi-automated.
-Hank
with the volume on the 7 line even at 3 am opto would never work give me a break!
Yeah it would. 3 AM, the trains are half empty.
I would think the same as happened in London. There must be a lot of conductors.
Simon
on the g?? with less cars and late at night !! to me i think it is dangerous as a woman in atlanta was dragged almost dead
caught in a subway door at the back of the train because of OPTO one person one operator !!!!!! you need a conductor !!
just because some transit systems like CHICAGO etc... are so #@**^*# dammed cheap to hire and pay
a conductor which has proven to be safe !.... OPTO is not safe at all !!
There have been numerous dragging incidents in New York, nearly all of which were on TPTO (two person) trains.
Not nearly all, ALL. If there were such an incident on an OPTO train, you bet your ass they would have passed a law up in Albany blocking progress forever. There was a rape that occured on the last car of an OPTO G train, and the politicians jumped all over it as 'Why OPTO should be stopped.' Of course, it was pointed out numerous times in the press by both reporters and TA employees that unless the train had a 10-man crew, it would still have occured. With no other passengers in the last car, and with no crewman EVER in a position in the last car, it was said it was an occurance that would occur on any train in the system away from rush hour.
-Hank
Just goes to show you, an anecdote beats a fact every time.
Thank you for your support.
i know that draging passenger accidents and deaths can and do happen even with conductors and motormen
working together but at least every safety effort should be made ( including not making the motorman do everything 0
such as ONE PERSON ONE OPERATOR- plus- STATION ANNOUNCEMENTS......
it does interest me that this trememdous load be placed on you chicagomotorman and IT AINT FAIR TO YOU !!
Thank you. I am very disaappointed the railfans of Chicago didn't come to me and my co-workers aid.
Unfortunatly, transit management does not pay attention to railfans. The industry is beginning to learn that someone who has an interest other than a paycheck may make a more motivated employee. However, work in the industry (paid or unpaid) and you begin to have a sightly different view of what we call "foamers".
Like I said in another post, the verbiage about OPTO sounds suspiciously like what was said 80 years ago as the streetcar industry converted from two-man to one-man.
thank you very much chicagomotorman your official posts set the truth solid in steel and concrete !!
the rest of the threads missed the boat on this subject ( thank you )..!
'Official Posts'? PROVE that he's an actual Chicago motorman. I could call myself 'President of the USA'. Just because I look the part, doesn't mean I can play the part.
Again, READ CAREFULLY! Nothing EVER posted here is official, since one can very rarely prove the true idnetities of the posters.
-Hank
I see ....only YOUR posts are official.........I stand corrected !! ......( thank you ) .....
You know, Salaamallah, every time I start to regret calling you to task for your inane logic, you seem to take a quantum leap further away from reality. I agree with Hank. Other than the fact that Chicagomotorman seems to have an IQ on par with yours, what makes his post 'Official'? As the governor of Chicago, I like to know, Officially?
Steve, he's got PEBCAK (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair) so no rational post or position ever gets through. If you've read enough, you know exactly what I mean.
Door operation happens when the train is stopped, which means that the operator is doing nothing. There is little increase in simultaneous responsibilty.
In cities with OPTO like, say, Atlanta, the train operator doesn't really operate the train, since it is automated. So all the T/O is doing is making station announcements and opening the doors, just exactly like what a conductor does. Why have two people on a train when one will just sit up front staring out the window?
remember when ( in atlanta ) and because there was no conductor passengers had to pull the EMERGENCY CORD !!
and that poor woman was DRAGGED in a MARTA TRAIN door jam 200 feet ???.....!!
That's happened more times than I can count in NYC, WITH a conductor. Your arguement is completely moot.
-Hank
i know that draging passenger accidents and deaths can and do happen even with conductors and motormen
working together but at least every safety effort should be made ( including not making the motorman do everything 0
such as ONE PERSON ONE OPERATOR- plus- STATION ANNOUNCEMENTS......
it does interest me that this trememdous load be placed on you chicagomotorman and IT AINT FAIR TO YOU !!
Thank you. I am very disaappointed the railfans of Chicago didn't come to me and my co-workers aid.
Unfortunatly, transit management does not pay attention to railfans. The industry is beginning to learn that someone who has an interest other than a paycheck may make a more motivated employee. However, work in the industry (paid or unpaid) and you begin to have a sightly different view of what we call "foamers".
Like I said in another post, the verbiage about OPTO sounds suspiciously like what was said 80 years ago as the streetcar industry converted from two-man to one-man.
thank you very much chicagomotorman your official posts set the truth solid in steel and concrete !!
the rest of the threads missed the boat on this subject ( thank you )..!
'Official Posts'? PROVE that he's an actual Chicago motorman. I could call myself 'President of the USA'. Just because I look the part, doesn't mean I can play the part.
Again, READ CAREFULLY! Nothing EVER posted here is official, since one can very rarely prove the true idnetities of the posters.
-Hank
I see ....only YOUR posts are official.........I stand corrected !! ......( thank you ) .....
You know, Salaamallah, every time I start to regret calling you to task for your inane logic, you seem to take a quantum leap further away from reality. I agree with Hank. Other than the fact that Chicagomotorman seems to have an IQ on par with yours, what makes his post 'Official'? As the governor of Chicago, I like to know, Officially?
Steve, he's got PEBCAK (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair) so no rational post or position ever gets through. If you've read enough, you know exactly what I mean.
Door operation happens when the train is stopped, which means that the operator is doing nothing. There is little increase in simultaneous responsibilty.
In cities with OPTO like, say, Atlanta, the train operator doesn't really operate the train, since it is automated. So all the T/O is doing is making station announcements and opening the doors, just exactly like what a conductor does. Why have two people on a train when one will just sit up front staring out the window?
remember when ( in atlanta ) and because there was no conductor passengers had to pull the EMERGENCY CORD !!
and that poor woman was DRAGGED in a MARTA TRAIN door jam 200 feet ???.....!!
That's happened more times than I can count in NYC, WITH a conductor. Your arguement is completely moot.
-Hank
CCTv systems give the train operator a clearer view then a conductor looking down the tracks. The best implimentation of this would be in cab flat screen monitors or heads up displays so that the TO does not have to look outside the car at all.
if the cctv breaks down or fails then go back to a conductor ???
Replace the broken equipment.
Simple answer. Move the platform observation monitors to the operator's position. For those stations that don't have them, install them.
The problem with OPTO on the Flushing is the passenger load factor:basically the Flushing runs at rush or near-rush capacity almost all day; whereas the G is very,very low capacity,even during the rush.....
Plus the Flushing Line is 11-car trains pretty much 24/7, except in the summer when some of the R-33WFs are pulled. Even if they don't bring any R-62 singles over to the 7, you'd still be talking about a 10-car, 512-foot train compared with the 300-foot, six-car G trains that run OTPO. Two-hunndred-plus feet is a big difference when looking out the front of a train.
5 car trains during the nightime hours would be adequate for late night Flushing service (except during late running games at Shea Stadium). So I'd expect OPTO to show up on the Flushing line as soon as enough R62A cars have been transferred there.
RIGHT !!!......( thank you sir )....stop making sense...!!
I was in Palm Springs, CA all of the past week so I was unable to comment until now. My question is what will the 6 and other IRT lines get?
When the R26-29 and R33-36 retire will they do a fantrip on all IRT lines.
I'm sure somebody will. I'm ready for an R33 trip totally equipped with #7 line single cars.
Make sure that Pigs is invited to this fantrip this way we can make sure he has a fantrip seat right under a noisy fan.
Wayne
And of course, the fantrip would have to be in July or August.
The whole train would have broken fans that just made an annoying screech
LOL
And hope it's not too hot. We don't want deja vu all over again (that's Yogi's line, not mine) as it occurred on Sept. 11, 1973. I won't go any further.
When R these Fan Trips?
please respond.
thank you
Hmmm... how appropriate for a fantrip :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah. You'll never where a single unit might end up after the fantrip. Remember 6688 and the fantrip in 87?
RIM SHOT!
-Stef
And don't tell Pigs that a trip is being run with all singles. It's his worst nightmare.......
-Stef
That's OK, pork gives me nightmares too... and I'm told, by those who eat it, that bacon is best when it's fried to a crisp...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I suspect (and hope) that the members of the ERA would charter a few "Farewell to the Redbirds" fantrips ....
--Mark
late last night i received word of a last minute change in scheduling for this month's transit transit show... it was originally scheduled to highlight the successful testing of the r-142's, but yesterday's unfortunate event in the bronx resulted in a sudden change of shows... a couple of days after the excellent article in the daily news about me, i was approached by the producers of transit transit to appear in a full half hour show featuring well adjusted railfans... they filmed several hours of me in my r-9 motorman's cab as well as sitting in front of my television set and addressing the world on my opinions on transit via webtv... the taping went perfectly, except for a brief interlude when the two hosts of the segment got into a vicious verbal and pie fight over some personal matters that had long been brewing between them... to me that was the best part of the show...
word got out that they were going to do a heypaul half hour special, and they began to receive nasty letters suggesting that i had steamed over my towline, thrown down a yellow dye marker, and had conducted a search for a key to the food locker that did not exist... all these nasty rumors from a bunch of disloyal officers caused them to shelve the episode...
but events yesterday while testing the r-142's made it imperative to substitute another show for the one that they had done on the new equipment... as a result, make sure you tune in and tape for posterity this month's transit transit show and remember to have a
HAPPY APRIL FOOL'S DAY
I think New York City should forget about the old & rotting elevated lines & replace them with new monorail lines. This New York City , hence the "New" in New York.
Ah, back to the future, when the Els and the subways were separate and incompatible.
Would the capacity on a 2 track monorail be anywhere near the capacity on a 2 track el?
No big difference, but where would the trains go? The lines can be replaced with new concrete els.
Miami's Rappid transit all elevated because of the high water table looks like a monorail because of the the concrete towers and track bed. Precast concrete can be very creative.
A Cantalevered Concrete L on each side of 2nd Ave would be cool. Good looking without interupting the sacred traffic that dosen't move very well anyway.
Or maybe a center running 2 track system would work. Dare to dream
A two track L would not look muck different that a people mover track.
Would the capacity on a 2 track monorail be anywhere near the capacity on a 2 track el?
Assuming a loading of 190 passengers per car on an 10 car train, with trains operating on three minute headways, a two track el can carry 38,000 persons per hour per direction (pphpd). The only the heavy-transport class monorail I could find pphpd figures for was Urbanaut; it's designer claims a maximum pphdd of 40,000 persons.
CH.
The MONORAIL SOCIETY has an interesting website, if you would like to delve deeeper. www.monorails.org.
Some of the Japanese monorails definitely approach heavy rail in terms of capacity.
The MONORAIL SOCIETY has an interesting website, if you would like to delve deeeper. www.monorails.org.
Been there, done that. :-) http://faculty.washington.edu/~jbs/itrans/ is another useful reference.
Some of the Japanese monorails definitely approach heavy rail in terms of capacity.
Unfortunately, most of the high-capacity Japanese monorails are supported (e.g. Alweg-type) rather than suspended (e.g. Safege-type). I have my doubts that Alweg-descended monorails could survive a New York winter without incurring huge bills for end-to-end guideway heating. For New York, a narrow-beam suspended monorail, like Aerorail, would be a better idea, as such designs are far less vulnerable to winter conditions than their supported counterparts.
CH.
With the (not so unexpected) departure of Tom Prendeghast from the LIRR, one has to ask, what plans does the MTA Board have. TP's departure could be an indication that the MTA has decided to make some internal organizational structure changes. Changes that would have the LIRR presidency degraded by another level of MTA beaurocracy. One rumor has it that there will be a new office created in the MTA, "Pesident of MTA Commuter Railroads". This makes some sense as LIRR and Metro-North trains will both use Grand Central Station and Metro-North can now use Penn Station. It's long been rumored that the LIRR is exploring "One-seat commuting" from points on Long Island to Poukeepsie or even Albany. Therefore, a commuter railroad Czar makes some sense as the old borders fade. The two questions then become, WHO? WHEN?
One name mentioned is Senior VP Joe Hofmann. This could explain TPs sudden departure (as LIRR head) since he might not want to be subbordinate to his former subbordinate (he was Senior VP when JH was Chief Mechanical Officer). The other rumor is that the head of MNRR would move over to the LIRR and the MNRR position would be assumed by (MAL).
Of course, rumors at the TA are a way of life. But considering the number of the old guard at Jay Street who have opted to stick around for a while longer (rather than retire), One would have to think that they believe that there just may be some movement at the top very soon.
Who's MAL?
I'd hope for the BLEs sake that Hoffman does not get the position. He would be the type to challenge the LIRR's FRA status on the grounds they don't do freight. The MTA is desperate to get rid of the governing body the way they did with SIRTOA.
However, the LIRR will never get rid of the FRA status, as it connects with the national rail system at many places. Same problem with PATH.
SIR was able to not put up with FRA since right now it's isolated from the rest of the US rail system. IF the connections are ever put back, the FRA comes back with it.
Never is a very long time and FRA regulations can be changed or even footnoted to accommodate an exception.
As to the FRA, we've been living with a "kinder, gentler FRA" during the last 8 years. Depending on the inhabitant of the Executive Mansion in 2001, we may be seeing a difference. I keep a file cabinet of records of BSM's Transportation Department updated, partly in fear of a possible FRA oversight of the streetcar museums. We already have a streetcar museum that has FRA oversight. The FRA claims jursidiction over the Fort Collins Municipal Railway because FMCR (A 503C corporation) has 3 grade crossings on their line - which is not connected to the national rail system. It's a recreation of a streetcar line.
I talk to the steam railroad guys. The constant dealing with the FRA takes a lot of the fun out of it.
Talk to your counterparts at PATH. I'm sure they'd love to make it go away. I suspect they secretly envy NYCT.
[Talk to your counterparts at PATH. I'm sure they'd love to make it go away. I suspect they secretly envy NYCT.]
As I understand it, they tried, eliminating most of the connections as possible to the RR sytem. But it's not that easy to get rid of creepy bureaucrats! The FRA retained authorization because the PATH trains run *next to* the RR tracks.
Its weird that I have never seen 7750-7859, 8570-8685, 8686-8803 and 8806- 9305 SERIES on the #7 line. Well I have never seen World's Fair version on the #5 line or the #2 line Ive seen only on the World's Fair version on the #4 and #6 lines once in a while.
Worlds fair cars were originally purchased for the #7 line. Surplus went to the #6 line. It is so difficult to get cars from the rest of the IRT to the #7 line that they have not seen anything but Worlds Fair cars for over 30 years. When the 7 has to get new cars, the only way I can imagine the TA getting them to the seven would be to run them up to Concorse yd. on the 4, then running them down the D to DeKalb, then back north on the N to Queensboro Plaza.
When the handful of R-36 WF cars were first moved to the mainline, they spent their time on the No. 1 line. I don't think they made their way over to the Lex until the mid-1980s.
Thanks. I wasn't around before the 1980s so I figured they were always on the 6.
In 1978, I saw several R36 W.F. cars on the #4 near 170th Street.
The city of San Francisco and his honor the honorable WILLIE BROWN and the SAN FRANCISCO GIANTS ...
somehow swindeled the city of san francisco residents into CORPORATE WELFARE and so parts of downtown were
cleared away and the poor residents of San Francisco were forced out of thier residences into homelessness to
build this new baseball stadium !! ( according to the accounts of KGO 810 am radio in that city !!!
Now the plot thickens IF you drive your automobile pick up truck and or van ALMOST NO PARKING @might as well be none !
anyway the idea is that the good people of San Francisco would walk ride a bike charter vans and buses and...........................
..........here it goes folks................. RAIL-TRANSPORTATION...!!..... ( easy-er said than done !! ) .......... oh well
AND thats where the NIGHTMARE began !!!
AS I was monotoring KGO and KCBS radio station(s) as thier signals drift down to the los angeles county areas
at night the horror undfolds....
BART performed the best in getting the GIANTS baseball fans both in and out but could have left a lot to be
desired !! AND there were not enough trains to servive wall to wall fans pouring out of GIANTS STADIUM !!!
however it was reported on KGO radio that this was the best of the PUBLIC TRANSIT SYSTEMS IN SAN FRANCISCO !!
the next WORSE was the MUNI-BUS-and SAM TRAN- and-AC TRANSIT- etc the gridlock was a nightmare !!
But what in the hell did you expect putting San Franciscos GIANT STADIUM in the middle of downtown ?? RIGHT !!!!
i do not know if any CABLE CARS were in use around this area !!! ...............( no report here !! )..........
THE MUNI RAIL was reported to be a DISASTER !! you name it it whent wrong call it and it happened !!!!!!
EVERYBODY WAS TOTALLY MAD !!!! callers to the talk radio there flooded the station with complaints about
how trains passsed packed stations up discharging passengers out then they are stranded and no pick ups !!
MUNI TRAINS doing express runs and NO SERVICE being done !! ( reminds me of atlanta when the braves game ends )
and so all night long every possible nightmare happened !!!...... I suppose eventually they all got home !!!!!
FINALLY a rail system similar to METROLINK in southern california STRANDED thier passengers STUCK DEAD
while in service STALLED DEAD TRAINS....... packed with GIANTS baseball fans trying to get home in the
RURAL and SUB-BURBS type areas !! STRANDED & stuck dead on a .rail !!!!!!.....WOW !!!!!!!!
the new ballpark i am told is beautiful to see check out thier website !!
FINALLY this reminds me how the lost angeles BLUE LINE is not handled to the events at the STAPLES CENTER !!
thank you for reading please excuse my errors !!
It would have been easier if you used normal punctuation and didn't capitalize every other word.
PacBell park is actually the ONLY one of the new stadiums that has been built with very little in the way of public subsidy. Bay Area voters repeatedly rejected tax plans and bond plans to build the new stadium.
The new stadium has extremely limited parking, and it's the only stadium anyone is aware of the actually has a ferry terminal. Fans will be expected to use mass transit too and from the game, which the planners believe won't be too much of a problem, except for weekday afternoon games. Weekend games should have enough on-street parking available, but weekdays it is expected that most of the people attending games at the new park will have already arrived in the city, and thus are parked elsewhere or used mass transit to get there. There will be special schedules and addtional service on the bus, rail, LRV, and BART lines that serve the station area, additional cars will be added to trains, and additional service will aslo be added. This is the only one of the current crop of new stadiums that was planned from the begining to be a real downtown park, and will make use of many existing facilities. There are bound to be teething problems while they fine-tune things in the early part of the season, but by the third week of home games, everything is expected to be running smoothly. The transportation support would be expected of any major stadium,because if the fans can't get to the games, why would the team stay?
-Hank
ok your only response was a
spell check and i was looking for responses from persons who
experenced this DISASTER !!!
mr hank?? were you there to tell us all on subtalk how ""everything is going to be allright ""
and if it is alright with you sir if you live in the BAY AREA of san francisco what and
how differently you would handle public transportation to GIANTS STADIUM which was built in the WORST POSSIBLE LOCATION of the city of san francisco ???
besides a spell check how would you remedy the problem of public transit to and from the GIANTS BASEBALL games ??? your proven solution to this problem will do just fine !!
I wait for your answer to this !!
Some people that I know in San Francisco were worried about cappacity problems. Not enough trains and is the new streetcar link finished? I know the ridership on the F Market/ Embarcadero is higher than expected causing equipment shortages there.
There are some things in the works to fix the problems. For the first few games, I think people expected that there would be some bugs.
If you are a transit fan help look for solutions, not just find fault.
what did THE BAY AREA TRANSIT etc.. tell anyone what they were going to do to ??? TRANSIT DISASTER IN SAN FRANCISCO !!
to speculate and hit and miss on this is not gong to solve the problem as to what to do and what was thier plans etc...
about public tranist to and from sell out GIANTS STADIUM EVENTS !!! which was a total failure !!! .....
You see they KNEW what the problem was and is BEFORE the stadum was built !! and what they should have done right !!
I dont go for he BULL as to why this couldnt have been done right in the first place !!! like things are going to improve what ??
ESPECIALLY when all of the BAY AREA TRANSIT so called ""experts"" knew in advance !!! what in the hell were these fools doing ??
wait so they can get it right after the fact ????? hold your breath .......( I hope not too long ) !!!!!
another reason not to answer the census i did not !!!! THE MYTH OF PUBLIC TRANSIT etc....
The N Line terminates by the Stadium which is also a couple blocks or less from Cal-Train. The F Line is a Surface line and does not go near the stadium. If the trains are packed, Muni could devert trains of the JKLM to the stadium terminal.
Perhaps that'll even out once the Newark PCC's arrive although you know I will miss them terribly.
Wayne
Current service to/from the ballpark is LRV(Bredas not the older boeings). The platforms along the southern Embarcadero line (MMX) are all center/high level. thus not PCC usable. While I did not go to the game, I was watching cars/trains passing thru Embarcadero Station(Muni level) yesterday evening around 7 PM. There seemed to be adequate service running that direction. Muni at least made the effort. BART also added extra cars to regular runs. The real loser was CalTrain(the ex Southern Pacific SF-San Jose mainline suburban service). They blew it big time vastly under estimating ridership. Reports in the local press speak of crush loaded trains skipping platforms packed with waiting passengers.
If I remember correctly Muni still has some older PCCs in the Geneva Barn that can be rehabed for the F Line, also the F Line can use Museum Cars which they use on Summer Weekends/
response to last two posts : at least they could have tried to plan the horrific crowd overflow coming out of
GIANTS STADIUM in san francisco !! no efforts were made to do this !! A RAIL TRANSIT DISASTER !!!!
then why go to the new ballpark if the PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION in SAN FRANCISCO failed to serve the people !!
what i think will happen is that GIANTS BASEBALL FANS will stay away from thier new ballpark crammed right
into the middle of downtown in the worst posssible place !!!!
I don't know what part of my post you read, but I sure as hell didn't see a spell check. According to the SF Chronicle and KRON-TV, the only problems they had with the first exhibition game was with Caltrain, who appartly under-estimated what their passenger load would be. Overall, many parking-lot owners were not happy, as very few people drove to the park. Many fans consider the location excellent. I don't know where you got your information from, but the area where the ballpark was built was previously several dozen abandoned warehouses, and very few residents. No one is homeless due to the stadium construction.
As for the corporate welfare angle, you should stop smoking that stuff. PacBell park was paid for in full by the Giants, not the city.
-Hank
Hell, I'd take that S.F. deal in a minute here in NYC. And we could get it if we just stood fast. It's time to get off our knees for this stuff.
[Hell, I'd take that S.F. deal in a minute here in NYC. And we could get it if we just stood fast. It's time to get off our knees for this stuff.]
Don't hold your breath. NYC politician have to be the most cowardly bunch in the entire country. As I've pointed out before, just look at the way corporations can extort millions in tax breaks and other incentives by making ludicrous relocation threats. Sports teams can and will do the same.
the only reason the problem will take care of itself is because the attendance at GIANTS STADIUM
will fall off ( like at candelstick park ) the Giants baseball team ususlly is not one of the top winners type
here in los angeles and in anehiem the same low attendance when they are not winning !!!!!
THEN WITH LOWER RAIL & TRANSIT DEMAND .......( then transit to and from giants stadium will work ) ...!!!!!
san francisco to me reminds me of a little new york i do agree with you you would probably move there !!
especially if you visited san francisco !!!! or the BAY AREA !!!! Too bad CORPORATE WELFARE built thier stadium !
Corporate Welfare did not build the stadium. San Franciscans repeatedly voted down measures to publicly fund the stadium. It was built completely with private money.
corporate welfare built GIANTS STADIUM just like the RCA Doom and the GEORGIA doom the indy colts Doom
all supported by welfare corporate welfare some like in St Louis straight out the taxpayers DOLE robbing money
from MASS TRANSIT and transportation and highway and street(s) etc......while driving cross country i tuned into talk radio st louis ...
( by the way on talk radio in st louis that subject was being discussed ) ( also in San Francisco with WILLIE BROWN on KGO news talk 810.!! dont believe me ask bernie ward and ray taliferro and they will back me up with the truth about this new GIANTS STADIUM - WELFARE QUEEN !.......!!!
and how kickbacks money under he table cuts on mass transit except muni rail excluding salary hikes for transit operators there !!
And how corporate welfare was tried on Los Angeles except we here are "" hip to this CORPORATE -WELFARE- JIVE ...!!!
another reason why we lost the st louis rams !!! GOOD RIDDANCE we can watch them on TELEVISION.... BYE !! BYE
I feel for the poor victims of San Francisco especially the poor folks there who now have to pay out of thier pockets !!
It sems that like in SEATTLE and now in SAN DIEGO this scam is being used against the people !!
no wonder we refuse to co-operate with the census !! So that more Corporate Welfare can go to those who DONT NEED IT THE MOST !!
however when the seats empty and native san francisco residents who know mass transit is not working for
GIANTS STADIUM events and they cannot count on bart & muni to get it right they will stay away !!.
Well, living here in the Bay Area, i must disagree. Pac Bell Park was actually put in just the right place to encourage people to use mass transit. On opening day, the San Jose Mercury News fan a full page article (not an advert) about how driving to the park, and especially parking there, is nearly impossible and fans should take Caltrain or BART/MUNI. They're even offering special game-day fares. Pac Bell park isn't taking anything away from rapid transit, or public transit in general.
But that's just my opinion.
ian
were you in any way close to the ballpark area to see how the three rail transit systems worked or failed ??
also when ballgames only draw small crowds that should not be hard to service them right ??
i know what a nightmare it is around pasadenas rose bowl when we have events here !! ( for example )...
caltrain had the worst service of all muni second bart number three somewhat better buses no report !!
The problem with the Rose Bowl versus Pac Bell Stadium is obvious. You of all people know that transit in LA is a myth, right?
Hey Pigs: If Big Sal doesn't know I do. When I go tothe Rose Bowl I park a half mile away and walk to the stadium. It is good exercise and I beat the traffic. Trying to drive out of that place is next to impossible and there is no train or trolley that can get you there. Just the plain old automobile.
Yes, Colorado Boluevard could definitely use a subway at least on the days between Dec. 29 and Jan. 1 each year.
First of all Big Sal, the place is practicaly sold out for this entire season. The fans are especially enthusiastic about their new ballpark which is a far cry from windy and cold Candlestick. The new park means the city of San Francisco is still big league in sports and it means the Giants are in town to stay. I hope to able to procure tickets somehow when the Mets come to SF and for a Dodger series since the Giants and Dodgers is still the greatest rivalry in baseball. Go Mets!!!
my name is not sal_ when the newness fades off as it will soon the attendance will fall off too !! san francisco does not have
the big money of the braves dodgers yankees orioles etc... when i did like to watch sports it seems the little teams
like the cubs white sox red sox san diego milwaulkee seattle royals reds pirates and the small teams usually are left
are usually left out of playoffs etc... if i had it my way the giants dodgers would still be in new york !!
i wish i still could be a california angels fan but the $6 parking and high general admission fees food costs etc ...TOO HIGH !! how can you afford to attend a sports event today ?? they kill me with prices so high its out of the reach of regular working class folks !!
enjoy your new GIANTS STADIUM experence!. We have a new STAPLES CENTER here in los angeles right next to
the BLUE LINE and in future posts i would like to discuss how that was a failure too and the details and proff.
No wonder the giants will stay in san francisco they got the PORK they wanted a brand new STADIUM !!
( you must live in the bay area ) ...
maybe they will finally get CAL-TRAIN and muni right as they should have planned it in the first place !!
i remember WILLIE MAYS when he hit a HOMERUN in dodger stadium off of sandy koufax !!
and i remember back in the 1960s when the dodgers swept the yahkees 4 games straignt !!
MAN !!!! THOSE WHERE THE GOOD OLD DAYS !! enjoy your new stadium !!..you paid for it !!
and my name is not ...sal_...!!!
I live in Arcadia Salaam. I just meant that when I visit SF I can go to a new ballpark and watch in comfort. I'm a baseball nut.
$6 parking too high? GA ticket prices too high?HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Try going to a Rangers game. $150 for a nosebleed seat so you can watch the SUCK. Not to mention $18-$30 for parking (depends on how close you want to get)
-Hank
cool off fellah !!....I STOPPED going to sports events in the early 1980's HAHAHAHA..???
anyway sports turns me off !!... BUT if you want to feed corporate welfare and catch a nosebleed as you said ,.......
hope first you cant open the windows on a stuffy little R-142 with the A.C. has failed on the way to your
rangers game !!! (salaam) NOT SAL_....!! ......
This is the THIRD time I'm telling you, PacBell Park was entirely PRIVATELY FINANCED. The SF Giants took out a loan to build the stadium. What this shows is you never pay attention to FACTS. It also shows that many threats of teams to move to other lacales are simply empty threats. There are a number cities (Las Vegas, Richmond VA for example) that would instantly hand out tax breaks and a taxpayer-financed stadium to get a team.
I think that Montreal is also financing their new stadium patially private.
-Hank
It's like talking to a wall. I even tried sending a private, friendly e-mail about using a word processor to compose the message before posting. What came back to my box? A double mail of the same thing we find here, with two exact copies. And totally ignoring what I sent.
Oh, well. Live and Learn.
As to the public trough:
We didn't learn here. The O's play in a taxpayer-financed/suported stadium. They sell out 99% of the games. And the average fan can't afford to go. I've been there 3 times since 1992. And every time I went by streetcar (aka Light Rail).
According to the (massive and growing) economic literature about how monopoly sports leagues screw communities, threats to leave can be divided into two categories.
For small and medium sized metro areas like Baltimore, teams may indeed leave -- since the leagues ensure that the number of such metro areas with teams is lower than the number that could support them, thus leading to a game of musical chairs.
For major metro areas such as New York, Boston, and San Francisco, the teams are not going to leave. But they can play different parts of the region off against each other, ie. New York vs. New Jersey, and the number of New York area teams is kept below the number the area could support, leading to sky high ticket prices and rich TV contracts.
That's why the Pittsburgs of the world cannot compete with the Yankees. If there were three of four teams here dividing the regional market, each would be no richer than Pittsburg.
[For small and medium sized metro areas like Baltimore, teams may indeed leave -- since the leagues ensure that the number of such metro areas with teams is lower than the number that could support them, thus leading to a game of musical chairs.
For major metro areas such as New York, Boston, and San Francisco, the teams are not going to leave. But they can play different parts of the region off against each other, ie. New York vs. New Jersey]
In practical terms, playing off the different parts of the region against one another works just as well as threatening to leave the area entirely. From the typical NYC standpoint, there's no difference between the New Jersey Yankees and, say, the Las Vegas Yankees or the Charlotte Yankees. King George therefore can get massive tax breaks merely by holding out the spectre of Newark or the Meadowlands. And we have learned by sorry experience that NYC politicians lack the courage to stand up to these threats.
Hey Pete: Take a page from Los Angeles. When the football moguls tried to hold us up for tax-supported funds so they could get rich off of our sweat we told them to hit the road. We don't have pro-football and most of us don't give a damn. We turn on our TV's and see some choice games every Sunday, instead of what happened before------a blackout because our lousy teams couldn't sell out in a crummy stadium that was too big in the first place. We will eventually get pro football, but on our terms, not Taglispews. We're still big league, though. See our my Lakers gutted your Knicks Sunday. What a wipeout. Maybe even the Dodgers might do something for a change.
[Hey Pete: Take a page from Los Angeles. When the football moguls tried to hold us up for tax-supported funds so they could get rich off of our sweat we told them to hit the road. We don't have pro-football and most of us don't give a damn. We turn on our TV's and see some choice games every Sunday, instead of what happened before------a blackout because our lousy teams couldn't sell out in a crummy stadium that was too big in the first place. We will eventually get pro football, but on our terms, not Taglispews.]
What worked in Los Angeles won't necessarily cut the mustard in NYC. It's probably fair to say that cities have a collective spirit or sense of self, an agglomeration of individual viewpoints as filtered through the news media. This point is relevant because Los Angeles and NYC have very different spirits. From what I've gathered, Los Angeles is a city which, depsite its share of problems, is pretty confident about its future. In other words, most people probably feel that the city's best years are yet to come (and statistics might bear this out; the loss of population to other western cities and towns apparently has been stopped and possibly reversed). What all this means is that the people in Los Angeles have enough confidence in their city and in themselves to take in stride the loss of a football team. They know it won't be the end of the world.
NYC is rather different. There's a pervasive sense among New Yorkers, something I deplore for that matter, that the city's golden years were well in the past and that the future is dangerous at best. Witness the oceans of tears still being shed over the demolition of the old Penn Station, 35 years after the fact, in many cases by people who weren't even born at the time. With this hankering for the past - and even more significantly, fear of the future - New Yorkers would never do anything to risk the loss of a sports team. They would fear that the team's departure would be the first step down the path to ruin.
if a football team wants to move here (los angeles ) they can pay for the rebuild of the colisuem themselves !!!
It's also a fact that New York (and fans in the northeast in general) are more strongly tied to their teams than those in the L.A. area, in part because a lot of people out there are either new arrivals or just-passing-throughs, and don't have the roots in one single area fans in New York (or Boston, or Philly) do.
In the case of football, the fans never got strongly tied to the Raiders, since they fell apart after winning the Super Bowl just after arriving at the Coliseum, while Georgia and Dominic made the mistake of moving the Rams out of the central L.A. area and down to Aneheim. That would have been like the Jets and Giants moving out of New York City to Trenton instead of the Meadowlands and expecting all their fans to follow them down there.
People in the northern part of the L.A. basin don't seem to really care what happens to the teams down at Disneyland, so if the Angels, say, were to suddenly decide to pick up and move to Las Vegas, it would also be met by apathy. But if some rich Brooklynite were to buy the Dodgers and take them back east, then there would be some howling.
I used to like going to anehiem stadium but ......long story ........ ( by the way I agree with your post )....
let them howl !!
[But if some rich Brooklynite were to buy the Dodgers and take them back east, then there would be some howling.]
Subway door openings would have to be widened so Brooklynites could get their heads through :-)
(There's a pervasive sense among New Yorkers, something I deplore for that matter, that the city's golden years were well in the past and that the future is dangerous at best).
Actually, that is the point of view of people with power, the white welfare crowd. They still hold all the public offices despite their dwindling numbers, and their goal is to take as much as they can with them as they walk out the door. They see all those immigrants and yuppies swarming in and think the world is coming to an end. I beg to differ.
The city's view of itself, and the country's view of the city, is going the other way. It's one of the few real cities left standing.
Young people are piling in here like crazy. One dot-com has 1,000 openings, but they want to stay here because this is where the college grads want to come -- not Oskosh.
Wait until the census comes out and the city's population is recorded as 8,250,000 or so, a new record and 750,000 above 1990. (It was actually much higher than recorded in 1990, 1980, and 1970 too). Believe me I have reasons for this forecast, and you heard it here first.
Freddie and Nelson have been getting nowhere fast in their attempts to get Rudy to partially fund their retractable-dome, Roll-A-Grass® stadium they want to replace Shea with.
I wonder if they will start making threats to leave, or sell to Chuck Dolan, who may be able to build a new park with his funds alone.
The Shea location is an excellent one, with the LIRR, IRT and GCP all nearby.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm not going to another Mets game until the stadium issue is settled -- without my pocket being picked.
A chance for Hillary to win my vote: ask the state to help fund it. LOL
i totally agree with both of you larry littlefield and peter rosa !! right on topic !!....
you proved what i posted about GIANTS STADIUM 100% .!!!! at least they could have got the transit right !!
THey proved you NOTHING. You have yet to provide any sort of substatiation to your claim that PacBell park was taxpayer-funded, which it wasn't.
-Hank
then the mayor of san francisco WILLIE BROWN lied right ??...... it was his BABY !!!.........
he admitted this on KGO 810 am radio !!....
to hank and dan it was put out that GIANTS STADIUM was not corporate welfare financed and i know that HANK
believes that GIANTS STADIUM was privately financed 100%?? and of cource if you believe that hank-&-dan.....
then i have some prime beachfront property to sell you cheap in denver colorado where corporate welfare also
worked anginst the taxpayers & NEW STADIUMS.!. now they are trying to pull this scam of building a new PADRAE STADIUM !!
A nice shiny new corporate welfare stadium for the rockies baseball and the broncos football!! taxpayer paid again !!
maybe the baltamore orioles got it right as far as mass transit to and from thier stadium however corporate welfare
like what happened in tampa bay with a DOOM (dome) that still is being paid by the taxpayes DOLE like also in baltmore ??
OH WELL we here in lost angeles have ENOUGH problems like the BELLMONT school complex gone bad !!
and the HOLE IN THE GROUND red line subway was a boon-doggle.!! ( green line that refuses to go into the irport ) and police scandals etc....
ONE IDIOT COMMISONER mark ridley thomas tried to put CORPORATE WELFARE to re model the los angeles
colisuem ( you know the former home of the losangeles-DISNEYLAND-st louis RAMS............good riddance !! ).............
WE SAID HERE HELL NO go and build your stadiums with taxpayers expense in cities like SAN FRANCISCO !!
and finally the TRANSIT-NIGHTMARE that the mayor willie brown promished woud not happen !!!!!
thats why larry and peter i agree more with you ....re: .Sports Teams Threat to Leave... we said here ADIOS ST LOUIS RAMS !!
finally ......... too bad we cant seem to rebuild our rail transit system !!
Leave me OUT of your insane, 3 year-old generated posts, if you please. The less I hear of you, the better I like it.
One good thing:
I live on the East coast - you're on the West. There's a whole country between us.
it does not matter where and on what coast you live in the west or east coast the on topic discussion is how
public transportation is waisted and not used !! to boast saying "" i live on the east coast"" does not mean mistakes cant and have not been made there too !!
( this is to dan there is a whole lot of distance between the east and west coasts ) ....!!!!! like for example light rail in all of the us cities
especially in cities ( including the east coast ).......... saying that the diesel bus would place rail syatems better !! what a joke ! like a question to
be made there too like why did new jersey replace its light rail system instead of keeping what they had !!
the transit myth us coined whenever any rail system is destroyed by the vehicle manufacturing companies and
the oil companies dont let them do this to you on the east coast dan !! and corporate welfare sports stadiums !!
they had three rail transit systems in place and blew all three in san francisco what a shame !! AND
on opening day of GIANTS STADIUM which was built at the taxpayers expense !! .. also i thought SUBTALK
was not only for the EAST COAST ONLY !! ....( dan ) .!!
YOU ARE A MORON. Read somthing besides 'The Onion' and the 'National Enquirer'. The Giants funded their new stadium COMPLETELY with a bank loan. The bought the land, the drove the piles, the bought the concrete, they sold the seats. NO PART OF PacBell park was paid for with tax dollars, you cement-headed, ignorant, jelly-for-brains JACKASS!!!!!!
Congratulations on being the first person to be enough of an idiot to anger me enough to tell someone else to FUCK OFF ASSHOLE!
-Hank
I apologize to all readers who will see this before it gets deleted (as well it should) except Salaam Allah, and to you Dave, for not keeping my anger in check. From the early days of this board until today, I have contributed, joined, and participated in many a discussion. I learned a lot about the subways, city planning, and transportation in general.
Looking back at it, I have no regrets whatsoever. It needed saying. Dozens of well-reasoned posts from myself and others, an open letter explaining to him why so many of us posted replies to him insulting him and such, and I tried in vain to refrain from that. In the end, it seems that 'ignorance' will always beat fact and reason. As much as I have enjoyed visiting, contributing, and joining members on field trips, I must say, this will likely be the last time I post a message here. Anyone who feels the need to contact me, my email address is above.
Goodbye, and above all, good riddance, Salaam Allah. You bring shame to the name of a man who stands for peace and love of all mankind. I hope you're happy.
-Hank
wait a minute !! dont run away answer the rail-fan-window-post !!
i dont need your apology !!
Hank - I read this post cold and don't know what percipitated it. There are a precious few people here who offer anything in the way of meaningful dialog. You are one of them without you and the handful of others this will become a forum for
A) People asking serious questions.
B)People asking stupid questions (and yes, there are stupid questions)
C)People posting their opinions either sane or inane.
Again, I don't know what percipitated this but I'd ask that you reconsider, if only to add balance to the preponderance of ignorance that now hangs on our asses.
Steve
What precipitated it is all there. In short, I'm tired of seeing post after post after post that's more than impossible to read. I'm tired of the repetitive posts, harking on things long disproved. I'm tired of reading people keeping score. I'm tired of trying to control my temper every time I reply to a post by the terminaly uninformed, only to read as a reply to that 'Oh, YEAH??' Then I read the rest of the replies to both the new posts and the original post, and all I see is the same thing, repeated over and over again, increasingly difficult to read, and increasingly stupid. I'm tired of spending my valuable time weeding out those posts that are simply idiotic and repetitve. I'm tired of trying to explain things as simply as possible to persons whose brains have been nuetered. It's completely ruined the experience of this board for me, and I'm sure several others. I'm not the type to sit idly by and what has become our 'society' (to put in one way) come crashing to a halt. I tried to be proactive, I tried working to solve the problem, and now, I'm going to ignore the problem, and it WILL go away. As the number of moron posts increase, the number of intelligent and/or informative posts (no matter how imperfect) will decrease slowly to zero, at which point this board no longer needs to exist.
-Hank
PS-I expect (since I will most likely lurk here occasionally, and not post; I refuse to hide my identity) to see many a repetitve post calling me a liar now, since my 'apology' post was supposed to be my last. But mark my words, the majority of the discussions will simply degenerate as others decide that it's not worth their time to weed out the idiocy.
-Hank
He has proven, more than anyone else, the importance of a killfile. The search utility lets you search for messages posted by a particular author. The opposite needs to be true.
[I'm tired of trying to control my temper every time I reply to a post by the terminaly uninformed, only to read as a reply to that 'Oh, YEAH??' ... I'm tired of trying to explain things as simply as possible to persons whose brains have been nuetered.]
It's totally pointless trying to hold a rational discussion with Salaam Allah. No matter how clearly you explain yourself, he won't get the point and will respond with nonsense. So it's easier just to ignore him.
[I'm tired of spending my valuable time weeding out those posts that are simply idiotic and repetitve.]
Do what I do, and don't bother reading his posts.
The Big Sal can be difficult but let's not write him completely off yet.
my name is not big sal__ this thread needs to die off !! or is that asking for too much ?
my name is not big sal__ this thread needs to die off !! or is that asking for too much ?..
Already done.
-Hank
Hank, Peter makes a good suggestion which seems to work for me too, i.e. I'll read most of the first posts in a thread then skip the rest if it nonsense or not to my liking OR as I've said before ... just because the phone rings doesn't mean you have to answer it. If you just have to reply, count to ten, maybe twice, and read what you've wrote before you click ... if it inflames the topic, use the backspace key, i.e. let the thread die ... if the looney starts it up again, ignore it.
As you also said, this site can bring a lot of joy and learning. Many of us have something we can teach the others, you included, but stay focused on the fun part and the nonsense won't bother you as much.
Case in point, the past few days I have been enjoying talking to Todd & Conrad about SIRT 366 & 388. I'm also still hopping for a Field Trip on the SIRT, hint hint ... still have never been on that line :-)
Walking thru the weeds & worring about a tick bite isn't my cup of tea, e.g. my mom up in Ct has been bit several times.
Mr t__:^)
If you are so tired of arguing with him, why don't you just IGNORE him. Any post here has it's author's name right next to it. Itseems rather obvious that YOU wish to perpetuate the problem as much as he does.
Just ignore him. Got that? I-G-N-O-R-E
I've been doing it for awhile now. I see his name next to a post, I ignore it. VERY EASY to do.
posting a name then adding flamage .....what is the point ??...I take any chat room or subtalk e-mail etc... with a small grain of salt !
not as exclusive format for east coast rail systems only !! HOWEVER it does seem that some of you have this set idea (s) .....yours only etc...
as to how all things should go in this format... as for myself even ""heypaul" and some others we want to
""lighten up"' and not take everything about RAIL TRANSIT WORLDWIDE so serious as SOME of you do !
i would like to thank the webmaster for learning experence to where to go and shoot pictures and vidieos etc....
and i am still in contact with those who enjoy my vidieos and they enjoy what i send them !!
to me this is what most of us subtalkers are all about not doing SPELL CHECKS on everything and everybody that puts up a post !!!
and also putting up open posts with another subtalker to ______________*^#*^#**!!!!! and even hate e -mails ........boys please grow up !!
There's no reason to stop posting just because of Salaamallah. Just ignore the schmuck, like I do.
I would never post your name on subtalk mr schmuck !! andI would not flam you as you have just done !!
may I from now on may i call you mr schmuck as you do ?? is that ok with you ??"
an open apology to all except hank ..? ... give me a break.. no thank you .!!..
For you to quit would be absolutely wrong. You have kept your cool in this futile war a lot longer than I have, and have come out with well thought out arguments, which of course were for naught considering who they were directed at. It is obvious that the fabric of SubTalk has been rocked because of this menace. Nobody else has caused such emotional response. Blocking his respondents will not put an end to it. Blocking him is simple and will end the threads that can only lead to sorrow.
Of course, perhaps for suggesting that and for continuing to participate in these threads I might be blocked, so if I'm gone, don't be surprised.
I understand you frustration. Without mentioning names, there are several people whose posts I do not read under any circumstances since I feel they don't have too much to offer. But that is simply my opinion.
finally this nut named dan who insists on taking subtalk down to its lower level since _______ you know who he is !!
you know its a shame hat some poeple are looking for a fight with the WWF why dont they go to those chat rooms ?
thank you bill !!
Hank,
There is no real need to apologize to us. I think at some point Sal pissed us all off. Some responded, some didn't.
We just have to ignore him and hope to god that he goes away.
I've been in this situation on bustalk more than once and learned my lesson quite well.
Let's just go on, SUBWAY FOREVER! R142 FOREVER!
R142 Boi 2K
like i said before many of us do not take subtalk e-mails and chat rooms with a very small grain of salt !!
especially 142 type idiots who insist on disrespect and mispells someones name worng with intention and malace !!
what lesson did you learn on bustalk ?? little boys need to grow up !! i dont take this forum serious as some of you
who think that somehow your life hangs on every word like this SPELLCHECK squad but yet you mispell peoples names !! example; my name is not ...sal___
remember to pay your $ 666.oo lifetime membership fee !... I will leave getting pissed off or mad to some of you idiots !!
it would be a waste of my time !!
Come on Big Sal, let's put this stuff to bed once and for all. We should all be buddies and "friendly" rivals on this site. There's enough room for various opinions without anyone getting mad. Relax! I think The Big Sal is bigger than that.
Fred,
If you want to extend the proverbial olive branch you might consider beginning by calling Salaam by his proper name. He at least deserves that much respect.
thank you very much sir !! we can agree and disagree SHOUT etc ( no flamage ) but at least i try to spell
your name right ! ( thank you )...
Salaam: I was meaning The Big Sal as a compliment like you are the Big Guy, but it didn't come out right I guess, so no more. From now on it's Salaam. Chao.
fine with me......... i thought it was being used as a insult or flamage ( maybe i went to far on this )......... !! ( thank you )......
maybe you would like to see the detroit people mover on vidieo !!
Fred, perhaps you should be saying "Can't we all just get along?" The peacemaker rap is getting as tiring as Salaamallah's slaughtering of the english language. Please don't take this as a critism - just an observation.......
Hey Dude: You are a tough one. The fact is I usually never run from a controversy of any kind, but I've grown fond of my colleagues on this website and, if we are going to have any rivalries, let's keep them friendly. But it;s nice to know that someone out there looks as me as a "good guy". Enjoy your weekend.
............please .......... kill this thread.....(thank you)......
this thread should DIE ...!!
Gary: You are right, no more Big Sal. Actually I was calling him The Big Sal, like the Big Salmon, Salami, Salad. It was meant as a compliment, but I can see that it wasn;t from what I've been hearing. I stand corrected. Salaam from now on.
like i said before many of us do not take subtalk e-mails and chat rooms with a very small grain of salt !!
especially 142 type idiots who insist on disrespect and mispells someones name worng with intention and malace !!
what lesson did you learn on bustalk ?? little boys need to grow up !! i dont take this forum serious as some of you
who think that somehow your life hangs on every word like this SPELLCHECK squad but yet you mispell peoples names !! example; my name is not ...sal___
remember to pay your $ 666.oo lifetime membership fee !... I will leave getting pissed off or mad to some of you idiots !!
it would be a waste of my time !!
Come on Big Sal, let's put this stuff to bed once and for all. We should all be buddies and "friendly" rivals on this site. There's enough room for various opinions without anyone getting mad. Relax! I think The Big Sal is bigger than that.
Fred,
If you want to extend the proverbial olive branch you might consider beginning by calling Salaam by his proper name. He at least deserves that much respect.
thank you very much sir !! we can agree and disagree SHOUT etc ( no flamage ) but at least i try to spell
your name right ! ( thank you )...
Salaam: I was meaning The Big Sal as a compliment like you are the Big Guy, but it didn't come out right I guess, so no more. From now on it's Salaam. Chao.
fine with me......... i thought it was being used as a insult or flamage ( maybe i went to far on this )......... !! ( thank you )......
maybe you would like to see the detroit people mover on vidieo !!
Fred, perhaps you should be saying "Can't we all just get along?" The peacemaker rap is getting as tiring as Salaamallah's slaughtering of the english language. Please don't take this as a critism - just an observation.......
Hey Dude: You are a tough one. The fact is I usually never run from a controversy of any kind, but I've grown fond of my colleagues on this website and, if we are going to have any rivalries, let's keep them friendly. But it;s nice to know that someone out there looks as me as a "good guy". Enjoy your weekend.
............please .......... kill this thread.....(thank you)......
this thread should DIE ...!!
Gary: You are right, no more Big Sal. Actually I was calling him The Big Sal, like the Big Salmon, Salami, Salad. It was meant as a compliment, but I can see that it wasn;t from what I've been hearing. I stand corrected. Salaam from now on.
NOT FOREVER! 40-45 years, maybe 50, then the replacements come in, but NOT FOREVER.
1.) Who is currently planning on going on the SIR/SIRT trip? I ask b/c it has been a while since this was discussed and plans change.
2.) And now that I hopefully have your attention I ask that you let me have it for one minute more. I just would like to ask every one to take a deep breath and walk away from their computers (or at least SubTalk) for 15 minutes to cool off.
Everyone here is a human being (or show some traits of, as in pigs case) and therefore has feelings, has emotions, has rights to speak, has the tendancy to respond to taunts, and has the capability to balance all of these things.
I hope we all can show that trait here.
There is no need to use a person's name in a subject unless it is a question to/for him/her. If it is obvious who is being spoken about, the regular SubTalkers will understand. Now any one who lurks in here for the next few days (or longer) will see this thread and automatically be biased against the individual mentioned.
There is alot to be said to "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all." Silence can be deafening. This goes to all of you. Both the attack-ers and attack-ies need to hold your tounges a bit more.
It is very obvious that attacks (personal or b/c of views and opinions) breed more of the same.
Lets just see if calm, rational, thought-out posts can have the same results. Mind you there is nothing wrong with humor. Just leave it as such.
Original post -> reply -> joke -> -> a few "ha ha" posts.
Instead of:
Original post -> reply -> joke -> -> flame -> flame -> flame -> flame -> flame -> flame
All be warned - if your posts are flames / trolls / full of holier-than-thou attitude / or simply juvinile beyond the purpose of a lightening of the mood, I will ignore you. Please do not make me tune out fellow rail fans.
Thank you for your time and I hope we can all let those flame threads die right here and now.
If you reply to my original question please do not include any of this text so we can all drop it and get on with our lives.
-- David
I'll be there, with extra arms to carry equipment. I'll probably meet people at Port Richmond. I gave directions to Port Richmond, but we seem to have no anticpated meeting time at that location.
-Hank
We'll be there (weather permitting), and we probably will also start from Port Richmond. I e-mailed Mark with a few questions a few weeks ago including the one of the exact meeting location, but he has not answered. I presume he will post all the details soon.
[YOU ARE A MORON. Read somthing besides 'The Onion' and the 'National Enquirer'.]
Like the _Weekly World (12-year-old has Elvis' baby) News_?
I went to the ballpark just before the Saturday game (didn't have a ticket, so I just walked around a little) from Berkeley. I got on BART at Downtown Berkeley and took it to Montgomery Station (to avoid any crowds at Embarcadero). The train didn't seem any more crowded than normal, although there were a few Giants fans on board. I switched to the Muni Metro, there were only about 10-15 people on the platform. About 30 seconds after I got there an inbound K marked Mission Bay came, when it got to Embarcadero a big crowd of giants fans got on, at Folsom there was another crowd, at Brannan it didn't look like anyone got on but a couple people got off, and pretty much everyone including myself got off at 2nd & King (the station in front of the ballpark). There were trains arriving from Embarcadero on both sides of the platform, it looked like the N, J, & K were the only lines going there. Every time a train arrived at the station there was another one coming around the curve, everything seemed to run smoothly, there was no disaster, no nightmare, no gridlock (traffic was actually lighter than normal). I don't know about CalTrain, though.
cal train was the worst muni was second however a BART was the only one who halfway got it right !!
did you check on muni and cal-train that same night ?? on kgo radio thats where most of the complaints
came from and there were BART complaints too ( maybe not at the time you were there ) and did you
hang around the BART stations to see if after the two trains you saw that there were others in backup ??
according to all who called the talk radio stations there they would all disagree with you !!!
Talk radio attracts fringe wackos. And PacBell park was PRIVATELY FINANCED by the GIANTS, not the Bay Area taxpayers.
-Hank
then the mayor of san francisco willie brown lied right ? just like in st louis right ??and now in seattle and san diego!!
You tell me where he said anything about how the city of SF built the stadium for the giats (I'd like to see the SOURCE for this information) and I'll tell you then if he lied or not. Until then, you're just a fringe wacko.
-Hank
CalTrain, with a history of horrible service, provided horrible service according to everything I've heard. But there were NO big problems reported at all with BART or Muni (except from you, who wasn't there), and I personally witnessed and heard of no problems while I was there, except for one ferry having to wait a few minutes to dock because there was no room (and that problem is there because the ferry landing isn't finished yet). Muni had breda lrvs lined up past the station, probably to handle the crowds after the game.
bart was the least offender and made mistakes also but muni drew many complaints and yes cal train was the worst !!
i agree with most fo waht you said !!
bart was the least offender and made some mistakes also but muni drew many complaints and yes cal train was the worst !!
i agree with most fo what you said !!..
On Thursday I visited the Trolley musuem at Steamtown in Scranton. There are very nice displays which are educational and entertaining. Cars on display include surburbans from Philadephia and one section of the museum which is closed off to the public for restoring cars, but you can see whats happening in it because of the large glass doors.
Rides are expected to start on Memorial day and admission is $3.00.
On Thursday I visited the Trolley musuem at Steamtown in Scranton. There are very nice displays which are educational and entertaining. Cars on display include surburbans from Philadephia and one section of the museum which is closed off to the public for restoring cars, but you can see whats happening in it because of the large glass doors.
Rides are expected to start on Memorial day and admission is $3.00.
The phone of the museum is (570) 963-6590
If you've never seen a 1925 SIRT Standard Steel Car Company car, Seashore acquired #366 in 1993. Today while at Seashore, I had to tow it to get to a car which it was blocking (no, it doesn't move under its own power). Four new pictures from today have been posted by Dave on the Museum Car Roster Page; just scroll down to "SIRT 366" then click on the thumbnails. By the way, it was towed by our electric locomotive #300, which is seen nearby in two of the pictures.
More Seashore shuffling tomorrow!
Nice to see her get a breath of fresh air.
BTW, the link to Dave's page is a great place to take a peek on the status of some of your favorite old cars !
Mr t__:^)
BTW, the SIRT #366 car has rebuilt motors, a like-new air compressor, and has the roof painted.
Otherwise it is reasonably weather-tight, a protective tarp has just been purchased and will be installed shortly.
It is mechanically complete, just needs a lot of "TLC", lots of time, and some money...
Well Conrad yesterday I lovingly towed it back to Fairview Yard, where
it awaits your tarp and all the TLC, time, and money people can donate.
It was nice to see "Coney Island Yard" defoliated, so hopefully
sometime in the not so distant future we can have a yard dedicated
to rapid transit vehiles. (For those unfamiliar with Seashore,
our barns and yards are jammed with vehicles. "Coney Island Yard"
is envisioned as a rapid transit vehicle area, so that they can
be given care and protection -- and also free up space for our
trolley collection.)
I like that idea. Personally I'd like to see my own Museum house it's RT vehicles apart from the Trolley Collection.....
-Stef
I wonder if Gibbs 3352 ever paid a visit to the real Coney Island Yard before its retirement.
One of these days, when I'm at NH (Shoreline), I'll have to ask how weather tight sister 388 is, as she's outside with no tarp too. A member of the 3/4 ton crew has a special affection for these cars, so make sure you keep good notes on your restoration efforts.
Mr t__:^)
The fellows at Branford (pardon me, Shore Line!) have done a neat job on #388 thusfar. As I gather the Branford folks got some parts when the SIRT was scrapping the cars in the early 70s that will make the restoration easier (seats, windows, etc.)
I don't know what we'll do, probably use Cambridge Tunnel car windows and make new seats. Seashore's car 366 is more complete mechanically than 388 but is in worse physical shape (rust). The underbody is excellent, though, except around the anticlimbers. Lots of minor collision damage.
Car 388 sits outside but it is buttoned up, glazed, and has a cosmetic paint job, so it's stabilized, which is a great start.
[Car 388 sits outside but it is buttoned up, glazed, and has a cosmetic paint job, so it's stabilized, which is a great start.]
One of the folks here, who is also a SubTalker, did some more of the same to our Standard recently ... maybe someday they'll roll again under their own power ! Meanwhile don't hide 366 as Lou, formally of SI, now of Brooklyn will want to see her in July, as will the rest of us subway buffs.
Mr t__:^)
Did you get that Todd?????
Seriously, good for you folks at Shore Line. I was a member there in the late 70s/early 80s, I remember when the B type and H&M car came. I did a little work there but I was just a teenager then so I couldn't do much.
You folks seem to have realized that cosmetic jobs are often all a vehicle needs (I wish I could get that through to some of the folks at Seashore). Often if you just make a car look good someone else will come along and spend time and effort on the mechanical side of things. Doing an entire restoration job yourself is enough to tire anyone. At least if a car looks good the public will understand what it is and was about.
Wish we had more of that spirit at Seashore!
Got it, Conrad. Hopefully you will be at Seashore the day that the SubTalk fantrip takes place in July. I know that the group will want to see all of our NYC collection. Last summer's mini-field trip was a great success, and hopefully this summer's will be bigger and better!
Conrad my friend I think you have it in a nut shell ...
"You folks seem to have realized that cosmetic jobs are often all a vehicle needs ... Often if you just make a car look good someone else
will come along and spend time and effort on the mechanical side of things."
While cosmetic work may be enough for a car in great mechanical shape like the R-17 or the R-9, as you well know the big "M" word is money. There is just never enough to go around, so the mngt. of a museum has their budget meeting and they decide what they can afford to restore, meanwhile a group of folks, like the 3/4 ton crew, is willing to come up and do meaningful work. Mngt. reacts to this by finding something else for us to do that everyone can see when we're done, but it doesn't cost a lot of cash. Our current newsletter editor is very good about shouting from the roof tops about all the little things that are getting done at Shoreline ... this may be motivating even more members to drop by. We also have a member who is very good at shaking down the local vendors for free stuff, e.g. a truck load of trap rock here, some wire there ... now if only this translates to more customers the "M" word will be less of an issue.
I wish you folks in Kennebunkport, Kingston, and elsewhere all the best in your similar efforts to make progress saving our favorite cars
and look forward to hearing your reports of same.
Mr t__:^)
Very well said, Conrad. It seems that we have lost the art of the broom job at Seashore. Major projects are great, but if you can do something to spruce up an eyesore over a couple of weekends, people feel like they accomplished something, and the place looks a lot better.
Also looking forward to seeing some more subtalkers at Seashore.
Thank you all for the welcome at Shoreline last month!
Gerry
I was on Brooklyn late last week and stopped in the Info Center at 370 Jay. There is now a "Multiligual" edition of The Map dated March 2000. It is in the same basic format as the earlier subway maps of its type. That is, some of the narrative and system information is in various languages (in addtion to English). Only the Subway side of the map has this. The RR side is in all English as before.
The front the the MAP is pinkish with the flags of 9 different countires above the "the" and the date.
Before the Macdonald Ave. trolley tracks were paved over, I used to see what were either freight or work trains operating there from time to time. Where did they originate and what was their destination ?
That's the former South Brooklyn RR (SBK) Trains ran from 2nd Ave and 39st, via the West End line and the lower level of the 9th Ave station, and then on street trackage. There are 1 or 2 customers left, but I don't think any of them are on the street trackage any longer. The line has been used in the past to deliver subway cars to CI yard from the interchange with the NY Cross Harbor (NYCH) in the area near what is now the Brooklyn Costco at 38st.
-Hank
[There are 1 or 2 customers left, but I don't think any of them are on
the street trackage any longer.]
Hank, could you somehow find out who these 1 or 2 customers are? As far as I know SBK has no other clients outside of it's parent company, in the form of movements of equipment between other RRs and the NYCT system.
Doug aka BMTman
The last two companies that I knew of that had deliverys made by the South Brooklyn where Davidson Pipes and some company where
they hald pickle juice. I dont know whether or not these ompanies are still in buisness or if they still use the Freight Service.
Golds Horseradish one one of the last customers to use the freight service but they are long gone now. I think they moved out to Long Island.
Yes, I believe they (Gold's Horesradish - the very best, IMHO) moved to Hempstead. They seem like a nice outfit, when they moved they started a van service from Brooklyn so they could keep their old employees.
Another fairly big SBK customer was Roberts Food. I don't know their product line but I know they were into restaurant and catering supply. At one time they had their own tank cars that were small enough to fit under the el.
My understanding is that the Davidson Pipe site was quite a cause celebre during the Lindsay Administration. Supposedly the TA owned the land and wanted to build a replacement for 5th Ave Depot there. Allegedly Davidson threatened to move from the city if they were evicted and "played the race card". Since they employed a number of local area residents, who happened to be minorities, they threatened to sue on the basis of racial discrimination. So the issue died and 5th Ave was rebuilt on its old site.
Any embellishment from anyone old enough to have voted for (or against) Lindsay????
Very informative post, Conrad. Thanks. I'm going to add your info into my files on the subject of former SBK clients.
BTW, I'm not sure if (or how many of) our fellow SubTalkers are aware that the old Davidson Pipe lot was actually the original BRT Elevated storage facility (at the time of electrification). It later became the original SBK-interchange yard, then Davidson Pipe and then (currently) the Costco warehouse.
Once the BRT became the BMT, the original yard was moved to/combined with the current 36th Street NYCT maintenance facility across from Green-Wood Cemetary.
Doug aka BMTman
In fact, while the site was being cleared, one of the service pits was exposed. We were able to salvage some PCC operator's seats, tools and some other neat things. Unfortunately, the contractor destroyed an interesting mechanical car lift.
FYI, sometime around 1978 or so Wilbur Smith Associates (I heard Mr. Smith was a friend of Robert Moses) did a detailed study of the SBK that is a neat slice in time - pictures, maps, and a detailed client description.
WSA is very much still in business. Typically they will give stuff like that away (particularly if you tell them you're a college student doing a paper on the topic).
Maybe worth pursuing if you have a genuine interest in the topic.
Davidson Pipe I was aware of since that was the location where the SBK would sometimes lay-up their diesels. Davidson had a HUGE area that is now the current Costco Warehouse and parking lot. Davidson Pipe sold off that property in the late 80's and relocated to a smaller facility over on 50th and 2nd (less than a 1/2 mile down the Avenue from their original site).
Another client was a Cocoa importing company (exact name and location is not known) somewhere within the Bush Terminal area.
Doug aka BMTman
I don't know where that CostCo is, but in earlier days new subway trains were brought in by the more direct route of Bay Ridge LIRR to Parkville, then McDonald Ave. surface tracks to CI Yard.
Costco is between 2nd and 3rd Aves. and 37th and 39th Sts.
It has two floors, and these really cool flat escalators*. Cart wheels are specially modified so they stay in place and don't roll while on the escalator.
*Less steep than a true escalator, and no steps, it's a moving ramp. It consists of metal plates like an escalator.
Sounds like a good candidate for the ramps at Broadway / Naussa , but only a dream
avi
Those type of escalators -- that are more accurately called 'moving sidewalks' -- are in use as Newark Airport, LAX and Miami Airport.
I believe the old Burlington Mill exhibit in mid-town Manhattan was the first place I ever saw those movers in use.
I think idealistic urban planners back in the 40's and 50's thought that cities in the future would be criss-crossed with these moving sidewalks as an added form of mass transit!
Doug aka BMTman
SEE RUMOUR hUMOUR
But this thing is on an incline, the airport walkways are flat.
There is actually a fair incline to one end of one of them at Newark.
Is it anything like the ramp escalators at the mall on Metropolitan Av just W/O the "M" terminal? It goes to the roof parking and food court and people wheel shopping carts up and down it. Until I saw your post I thought it was unique in the city.
I don't know about shopping carts..I remember when Caldor was there, they employed people to place items in large bins and they went up those ramps that way...I don't know about now since Caldor was turned into Big K-mart..But I know one thing...At least one of those damned ramps is always inoperable.
Subways
Part 3
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Join Annie Cheney as she explores life and survival underground in
a three-part series on the subways to be aired during Morning Edition.
Subways
Part 2
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Join Annie Cheney as she explores life and survival underground in
a three-part series on the subways to be aired during Morning Edition.
Subways
Part 1
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Join Annie Cheney as she explores life and survival underground in
a three-part series on the subways to be aired during Morning Edition.
So, tonight(Sat) I just checked the SF MUNI LRV website which was showing many outbound trains including a 4 car set apparently a ballpark train. They appear to be doing the advertised--filling up as the game breaks and dispatching many trains. Huzzah!
why then did the callers at kgo radio there report total rail transit failure especially at the end of opening day ?? huzzah??
Because the program tried to claim that such a thing happened in it's typical sensationalist tactic. Those that didn't believe either didn't listen or didn't call, if they did, then they were screened off. Each radio station has an agenda, KGO's agenda seems to be to complain either about the stadium, the transit system or both.
As a rule I do not pay much attenton to radio call in shows. Most of the callers never went to the game.
one caller was stuck on a CAL-TRAIN while on a cell phone two hours still dead waiting on the tracks !!
he was live on bernie wards kgo newstalk 810 on the a.m. dial the signal was recieved strong after 8 pm pst a signal heard all over the west coast and canada and on real audio on the KGO NEWSTALK 810 and KCBS ALL NEWS ALL THE TIME CBS 24 NEWS STATION !!
along with in the bay area interviews and news report of the on going and unfolding as it was happening live....
transit disaster(s) along with the 100% total dissatisfaction with all transit service especially CAL-TRAIN
and MUNI LIGHT RAIL SYSTEMS !! .................... so did these callers all lie??..........you be the judge ..!!
what i would like is to hear posts of actual VICTIMS OF THIS TRANSIT DISASTER(S) .!!!
then explain kcbs cbs radio in the bay area ( oh yes they had an agenda too !! ) ...........
I heard that the new IRT subway lines will have a new terminal this is the way how is going to work:
#8 Lexington Avenue Local Pelham Exp- between BB and Pelham Bay Park.
#10 Lexington Avenue Exp Bx Thru Exp- between 238 St and Flatbush replacing the #5 train between 238 St and 180 St and Bowling Green and Flatbush.
#11 Flushing Exp- between Times Square and terminating either Willets Point or Main Street (no idea).
#13 Broadway- 7 Ave Exp- between 137 St and New Lots Ave. (just how it happen in 1998 when #3 service was reroute to 137 St)
#14 Lexington/Jerome Ave Exp- between Woodlawn and Utica Ave replacing #4 at nightime and it will run Exp along Jerome Ave. If you have any questions you would write to me.
What happened to #12? Where did you hear about these new lines going into service?
No questions, but read the new post about Bronx thru-express.
Actually, the official plan for the unused numbers is as follows:
#8: The Third Avenue El will be built as light rail, from 156th & Third to 204th & Webster. Non-stop, $3.00 fare, no transfers.
#10: From Dyre via Bronx Express, Lexington Exp, South
Ferry Loop, 7th Av local, switch to express track north of 34th, then express, Lenox, Bronx local to 241st. This will operate on alternate rainy Thursdays in July, from 12:00 midnight to 12:34 AM, on a 6.5-minute headway, except during a solar eclipse.
#11, #12, #13: Three-way skip-stop from Main Street via Flushing express to Queensboro Plaza, then switch to BMT Broadway to 57th, then reverse through 63rd Street into Queens Blvd express tracks, then reverse into Crosstown Line (replacing the G), through to Smith-9th, then reverse via F to Bway-Lafayette, then reverse and wrong-rail through Chrystie Street, over Williamsburg Bridge and Broadway-Brooklyn to Eastern Parkway, into Canarsie Line and reverse to 8th Avenue. [Since Metropolitan and Lorimer will NOT be all-stop stations, none of the three will transfer to itself.] Will run 24/7, 2.5-minute headway at all times, 3-car trains, double-ended with conductor.
:-) :-)
Could somebody tell me if the R27/30 rollsigns have signs of "W","V" if somebody knows tell me what is read on the sign tell me what direction its says.
The R30 had the "V" rollsigns when all these cars had their signs replaced in 1983-4. The "W" rollsign was installed in some cars that had their signs replaced again in 1988.
The V had the 1980's type "Avenue of Americas (6th Ave) local" on it. The W had the later style which included all branches of a line: "Astoria-Broadway".
I ride the bus and will ride the the Light Rail lines Everyday In The Phoenix, Arizona Metro Area because I cant afford to Purchace a car and all the expences that accompany a car and at 19$ a month (My Company pays the 15$ difference in Monthly Bus Passes) You cant beat that cost with a car. None of the anti-transit avoacates think about the % of Residents who have to use transit due to Age (Under 18/(21 in NYC) and our Elders (Over 6-) and also persons with disabilitys to get to work/school/shopping. All of us need public transit. Taxi rates are unaffordable for day to day needs (As Example Where I Live in metro phoenix Cab service is unreguated and the major cab companys charge 3.00 per mile and if you want to go to the airport on top of the milage charge a $10 airport fee is charged. (Only 3 taxi companys are allowed to pickup/dropoff at airport these companies are licenced by the airport)
So true!
Where I live outside of Newark, NJ, the buses are kind of slow, but they get me around.
There are two things that I hate, though. One, the fact that the Newark Subway is shut down on the weekends and I dread having to take the substitute bus. It runs half as often (or seems to do so, anyway) and takes twice as long to make the trip from Franklin to Penn (almost 25 minutes!). Also, the fact that on Sundays, the bus that normally stops at my corner takes a different route, leaving no bus service at my corner. I have to walk either a 1/4 mile in one direction or 1 mile in the other to get a bus. In addition, they run infrequently.
With that aside, I would like to add that sometimes when I have free time, I will go "sightseeing" on the NJ Transit buses. It's somewhat surprising how far a trip on one or two buses can take you.
Someday Tucson will also wake up and get a voter-approved mandate to build light rail, or something better than SunTran and the usual hare-brained ideas to widen roads and build new interstates. I have to use my NYC driver smarts to get around all the rush-hour back-ups caused by development which has far outpaced transportation planning and forecasting. Can't wait to try out the LRV up there in Phoenix. Maybe a city-to-city rail link soon? We can only hope.
[None of the anti-transit avoacates think about the % of Residents who have to use transit due to Age (Under 18/(21 in NYC) ]
The driving age in NYC is 18. It is 16 in the rest of the state.
It varies between 17 and 18 depending on Drivers' Ed completion. One can drive when one is 16 IN a Drivers' Ed class. One can also obtain a license at age 16, one just won't be able to use it in New York City.
I've never quite understood that. After all, under the federal reciprocity legislation (which, if you accept federal funds for any kind of transportation, you agree to abide by), a jurisdiction must recognize a valid operator's license or permit issued by any other United States jurisdiction, as long as the operator is at least 14 years of age and is abiding by the rules established for the permit or license which they have. Thanks to this legislation, my younger daughter drove through the Lincoln Tunnel at rush hour, down the West Side to Battery Park, via the Staten Island Ferry, and across Staten Island and back to New Jersey via Outerbridge Crossing, just after her fifteenth birthday (in North Carolina you can obtain a learner's permit at 15, providing you have taken driver's ed first).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Could somebody tell me why sometimes on the R38 trains on the "A" line you could find on the rollsigns marked "Rockaways" Queens because I seen it alot(doesn't that mean that it is going to both Rockaways) because the only thing that was used was for the Rockaway robin-round "H" service of which that line had been abandoned for like 8 years and ran to both Rockaways maybe thats why the train is marked like that.
The R38 rollsigns were installed before the round robin night service was discontinued. I always found that "The Rockaways" sign a bit strange, as it's too vague and could confuse an inexperienced rider.
When you see that sign on an R38, the person who changed the sign made an error. There is no more round robin service.
Other day i was on F line heading back to manhattan & i got to Queens Plaza i saw a conductor on G line. I thought those line are used only OPTO for 24/7. Also i saw 8 cars with #6052-53, #6055-54, #6074-75, & #6077-76 on G line. Any way i don't trust OPTO because it very danger for people getting on the train & i don't want to see OPTO on Lexington Av, 7th Ave/Broadway Line in the future.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
OPTO service on the G line is limited to nights only. However, when it gets cut back to Court Sq. full time when 63rd. St opens, it could go OPTO 24/7.
OPTO is in effect on the Saturday and Sunday schedules only (Court Sq. service). The TA day starts on the midnite tour. In other words, the G is not OPTO evenings and midnites Monday thru Friday,when 6 car R46's are operated. It can be OPTO only when 4 cars are operated, from Friday PM till Monday morning shortly after the midnite crews come in. Friday PM G trains have daily PM crews so it is not OPTO. They are simply getting ready for OPTO implementation after midnite.
Now back up your claim on OPTO being unsafe, or is it just that the extra person somehow makes you feel safer?
Can anybody validate whether Phila. has ever had an mishap with the OPTO on the M-4'S ?
Their trains are shorter.
You know, if you go back in the archives of several of the musuems, you will find that many of the anti-OPTO arguements are exactly waht was said in the 1920's and 30's as streetcar systems converted their two-man cars to one-man.
The last line in Baltimore to have Two-man crews was the 26 line to Sparrows Point, where the Bethlehem Steel Company had the largest tidewater steel plant in the world. The traffic at shift change was so heavy that MU trains were used until after World War II. In the early 1950's the traffic was still heavy, but PCC cars were introduced in 1952, replacing the MU semi-convertibles. PCC's (except for CSL, PE, Illinois Terminal and a few cars in Philadelphia) were strictly one-man. In other words, OPTO.
Speaking of Anti-OPTO movements, I remember a while back finding writings on trains on the B line: "OPTO kills!", etc. I also saw on a signal just south of the Bronx Park East station "OPTO makes me sick!" Some people just don't like OPTO.
Some streetcar lines in Chicago became OPTO in later years. All of their prewar PCCs were converted to one-man operation in 1952 along with a few dozen postwar Green Hornets. You can still see evidence of this on IRM's Blue Goose #4021. There is a body panel where the second center exit door used to be, and the space for the door engine is still visible. Green Hornet 4391 OTOH, remained a two-man car. Cottage Grove and Western were OPTO routes during their final years, and because of cost savings brought on by OPTO, the Western Ave. route returned to weekend streetcar service when all other remaining routes were substituting buses on weekends. The last two routes, Broadway-State and Clark-Wentworth, used two-man PCCs until the end of operation.
You know, if you go back in the archives of several of the musuems, you will find that many of the anti-OPTO arguements are exactly what was said in the 1920's and 30's as streetcar systems converted their two-man cars to one-man.
The last line in Baltimore to have Two-man crews was the 26 line to Sparrows Point, where the Bethlehem Steel Company had the largest tidewater steel plant in the world. The traffic at shift change was so heavy that MU trains were used until after World War II. In the early 1950's the traffic was still heavy, but PCC cars were introduced in 1952, replacing the MU semi-convertibles. PCC's (except for CSL, PE, Illinois Terminal and a few cars in Philadelphia) were strictly one-man. In other words, OPTO.
Just weekends. Read the FAQ.
does anyone know what service will run in the new tunnel at 63rd st
when it is complete?
I know, but I'm not telling :-)
Seriously, nobody knows because the plan isn't finished yet! About once every couple of weeks, somebody asks this question. There isn't an answer yet...when there is, you can be sure that SubTalkers will be among the first to know.
David
["About once every couple of weeks, somebody asks this question."]
Also, every so often, somebody offers what purports to be THE official answer.
Not only has the plan not been finalized, but even the "final" plan could always change AFTER implementation. (Such things have been known to happen.)
The only plan that I heard of, and this was some time ago. Was to re route the F through the 63 Street conection and have J Trains operate through the Crystie Street Conection, up 6 Avenue, 53 Street and Local to 179 Street. Cutting the G service back to Court Square perminatly. No changes to the E And R Service. M Trains to operate to Broad Street at all times except during rush hour, when service would be extended to Bay Parkway.(If they decide not to cut the Nassau Street Service through the Montague Street Tunnel perminatly.) and Chambers Street on the weekend. Rush hour Z Trains to operate between Eastern Parkway and Broad Street (Chambers Street should M service to Bay Parkway be eliminated.) The J service to operate Express Stops Only betwwen Eastern Parkway and Marcy Avenue during the peak direction in rush hour. B service to operate along Broadway to 57 Street except during Midnight hours where service operate to 36 street + 4 Avenue. There are variations to this plan. By the time they get around to opening the connection, the T.A. would likely come up with something totally different.
No, wait. I heard that the A,B, Q, 3, SS, MJ and the Nassau St loop trains will all provide service through 63rd. St. In fact, every line will be rerouted through 63rd. St to satisfy every railfan's fantasy service plan.
sarcasm mode: OFF
It would not surprize me as to what will end running through that connection.
LOL
Yes. Everything will be running through 63rd. St. All trains will be running express and local, and service begins at midnight tonight.
Kind of like BMT standard 2779 at Ocean Parkway, eh? There's a photo in Subway Cars of the BMT with that car sitting almost sideways in that station, having taken out just about everything in its path.
Yeah, I know that picture. Gotta love the caption: looks like the station got the worst of it.
I would not be surprise if the Q is express from 179-Brighton Bch via 63. 7 days a week. But we do not what will happen..............
BM34x
There is no definitive answer yet. Currently, the plan is to extend the Q to either Continental Ave or to 179th St.
Pros:
Parallel 6th Avenue Service through Manhattan- One Lcl. & one Exp.
Con:
Redundant service
requires 140 cars or 14 trains which are currently not available.
Stay tuned for further details.
As I said before, it's a perfect chance to give the Redbirds an 18-month reprieve until enough R-143s arrive to fulfill the needs of the extended Q service. Move the `birds over to the B division as the 142s come in, adjust the trip cocks, put platform extenders on them and use them for rush hour-only service on some of the less-heavily used lines. Take the extra trains that had been used during AM/PM rush and use them to suppliment the Q to Continental or 179th St.
It would be a flashback in time to when the Low Vs were outfitted with extenders for use on the Culver Shuttle in 1959. And going a little while with narrow trains during rush hour makes more sense than finishing up the 63rd St. tunnel later this year and then waiting until 2002 to use it fully because of a shortage of B Division rolling stock.
12 R-36s = 600 feet. 12 Car Trains on the Q line. Let's see - 3 door openings per car X 12 cars = 36 openings per train-side. 60 foot cars have 4 per side X 10 cars = 40 openings per train-side. It might slow down the line & I doubt that it would be seriously considered by senior management but it is an interesting thought.
Let's see the 75-footers are:
3 door openings per car x 8 cars = 32 openings per train side.
Doesn't senior management consider these and advantage - fewer moving parts?
Actually, you are incorrect about that too. The R-44, R-46 and R-68 have single door operators so 4 openings = 8 door panels = 8 door operators. At the same time, the R-32s have 5 operators for 8 panels. More door panels = less dwell time all the time. More parts = more breakdowns only when they fail. Your argument here is way below your usual standard.
I think you meant 4 door openings per car x 8 cars =32 openings per train side.
avid
I suppose if the R-62s are headed over to the Flushing line, you grab some of the R-33WFs and create 11-car trains for B division rush hour use, which would give you 11 x 3 = 33 doors per side, still short of the 60-footers door total but in line with eight 75-foot trains.
Of course, there would be certain posters of the swine persuasion on this board that would squeal over keeping the R-33WFs in service, but we'd be talking about a problem two months out of the year and only during rush hour.
And only until something better came along.
Yes, only until there are enough R-143s to make up the 14 train deficit Train Dude says will occur if the Q runs through 63rd St. to Continental and/or 179th St. Once the 143s arrive in a couple of years, the modified B Division Redbirds would go to the scrapper.
Also, if they were used only during rush hours on the Eastern Division, you would only need eight- or nine-car trains (hello, R-33WF), since a 10-car train of Redbirds wouldn't fit in the 480-foot long stations.
510' trains (10 redbirds) can operate on every single eastern division BMT line except the M north of Myrtle, because the Metropolitian Ave. terminal platform was shortened to 480' when it was rebuilt 15 years ago. All other stations are 530' - 550' long.
10% fewer openings but also x% fewer passengers due to the narrower width?
See! They shouldnt have gone scrap-happy in 1990 and 1993! Numbskulls! Despite the lack of A/C the overhauled R10 and R30 would certainly have made up for this gap.
Perhaps if they factor the 216 R143's into the picture...
Wayne
The order of R-143s, with the option cars, will certainly make up the defecite. However, that does not take into account the planned scrapping of the 196 R-38s, 10 R-32s and about 100 R-40S.
Answer: run em till they fall apart.
They would have had to do some wheel turning on the R-10s, if the excruciating noise level on some of them was due to flat spots. You're right, though: they could have been mothballed.
I don't quite figure your arithmetic there. The same maximum number of express trains during the morning rush, per hour, is 27, regardless of whether it is composed of E and F or E or Q trains. That means that the difference would be for the local. If I understand correctly, the G has 6 trains per hour in the morning rush. It would be cut to Court Square, probably reducing the need to 4. It would be replaced, say by the F (running as local) which might require up to perhaps 8 during the hour. That's a net of 6 extra trains per hour, or max. 9 for an hour and a half of the morning rush. How do you get 14?
Well let's see. Q now goes to 21 St. LIC. It will be running out to 179th St. If you are going to maintain the same headway, then you need more trains. Operations-Planning puts that number at 14 more trains. I am not sure how they calculate it but their numbers for every other line work.
Interesting. Maybe Operations Planning means 14 more Q trains for running express from Jamaica-Hillside Av in the morning rush. But then 2 less would be needed on the G. Also, only 8 or 9 for an F local (10 minute headways, via 63rd St. 24/7), surely less than needed now for the F express (4-5 minute headways).
This scheme (Q running express in all 3 boroughs, 16/7?) would be great for railfans and more importantly, good for commuters and possibly for the MTA as well. The only possible stumbling block, in my estimation, is related to half the Manhattan Bridge being closed. This is because of the increased number of southbound Qs needed for the morning rush that would share the downtown express track (probably on Broadway, as the switching of M.B. sides apparently will happen soon) with the D and the West End. But there would be ways of getting around this problem, too.
Easiest way to calculate the 14 train number:
Take the time it takes to travel, making local stops, from Queensbridge to 179th St., and divide that time by the shortest headway (6 minutes on the Q,during rush hour). Basic math.
so by your math 27 minutes (21st - 179th St.) divided by 6 minutes (headway) = 14 trains. Hey Chris, that works great, and it's basic math too. Gee I guess I missed short division.
I failed to add the amount of time a train would take to go OOS at 179th until the time it goes back in service Manhattan-bound. Plus you'd have to add a safety margin should a train or two need to be taken out of service. And remember, since trains will be needed to travel in both directions, the number would have to be doubled. So, if we add 9 minutes to turn a train around at 179th, (36) then divide by 6 (6), multiply by 2 account for trains in both directions (12), then add 2 trains for a safety margin, you come up with 14. Sorry for the confusion.
HAHAHAHAHA, Sounds like the math I learned at Brooklyn Tech. We called it Fenagle's Law. Get the answer and then make the facts fit. Actually, I'm not sure about the 14 number. The 14 represents the number of Q trains that would need to be layed up in Queens every night and not necessarilly the number of trains that would be added to Q service. That number could be more or less. The real issue was whether to add additional trackage in Jamaica Yard (25 tracks to be exact) or to lay the 14 trains up on D3 & D4 south of 71st Ave. Sorry if I unintentionally misled anyone.
[HAHAHAHAHA, Sounds like the math I learned at Brooklyn Tech. We called it Fenagle's Law. Get the answer and then make the facts fit]
At high school we had Zimmermann's constant (Z) , you added multiplied etc. it with the incorrect result you got to get the right answer. I have to add that the teacher was not one of the brightest.
Arti
At Brookhaven National Labs we call it ( + or - the fudge factor)being any value needed to meet your requirements .
avid
When visiting Chernoble, I foud they are more precise, and take what ever they get, the first time and it is cast in concrete
(Humour)
avid
Fenagle's Law sounds vaguely familiar, but it has been 31 years since I graduated there. No doubt, Brooklyn Tech was the best school in the city for learning how to ride the subways. But for that two stiff prices had to be paid: no girls and machine shop.
Anyway, let me try to remember freshman algebra with Mr. Sam Cohen (who taught there since the school's founding to about 1966-7, 45 years I think).
E + F = 27 express trains per hour in morning rush, now
E + Q = 27 express trains per hour in morning rush, come 08/01 (possibly).
If E is constant, then F now = Q then.
In other words, the number of trains added to the Q (exp. via 63rd) are subtracted from the F. No net of additional trains.
But F (possibly) will go local (via 63rd) to Forest Hills. Say 10 trains per hour (per direction) (6 min. headway). It will replace G which has 6 trains per hour (per direction) (10 min. headway). That's a net of 10 per hour - 6 per hour = 4 per hour. Figure two directions, x 1-1/2 hours of rush and add to the figure Cris' comment that two extra are needed for turn-around. What does that leave us with?
If I got this problem wrong, Sam Cohen, if still alive, I am sure would have some choice words for me. I won't quote him.
31 years ago? God that makes ne feel old since I graduated 33 years ago along with several other sub-talkers. Sounds like we could have a Brooklyn Tech reunion here.
I wish I could join you, but I dropped out of Tech.
-Hank
That doesn't make you a bad guy. Where did you end up?
Curtis, in St. George. I graduated only 6 months late (I was class of '93 at Tech), (despite the school's screwup) and took 4 years of college before deciding I'd be better off at this point working. A good student, I wasn't.
-Hank
That's basically what I did. I just wanted to show the logic behind the TA's 14 train figure.
The other day, I was watchin THe Pick-up Artist, and near the end, you see both Robert Downey Jr.'s character (Jack Jericho) and Molly Ringwald's character (Randy Jensen) going into, what looks like a Coney Island subway station. In that scene, the 2 are being mugged by a guy who starts singing "Blue Suade Shoes." Jericho joins him in singing the song, and the 2 escape. Now my question is - does anybody know where that is exactly? Is that the Stillwell Ave station or was that some other station around there, because I've been to Coney Island thousands of times (usually take the Culver line, living in Jackson Heights,) and I know that there's no subway station in Coney Island. Anybody know? Tanx.
"Broadway Jorge" Catayi
Can anyone give me some post-1943 information about what are now Chicago's Purple, Brown and Yellow Lines?
Thanks.
Purple was north shore lakeshore route to Waukegan It is now a howard to Evanston shuttle with Peak express service to the loop.
Yellow was North shore skokie valley route to Milwaukee, with some CTA local service between Howard and Demster. (the yellow, SKOKIE SWIFT now is non stop from dempster to howard.)
I think the Brown was and still is the ravenswood.
The Purple line is/was the Evanston Express, which used to be more of an express than it is now. At one time, it ran nonstop between Howard and Merchandise Mart, but since it shared trackage with Ravenswood trains from the Loop to Belmont (and still does), trains would often have to stop between stations. Some years ago, Belmont and Fullerton were added as station stops, and nowadays, Purple line trains make all stops from Belmont south. One nice improvement has been the rebuilding of Addison station from having outside platforms to a center island platform. In this way, Red line trains stay on the inner tracks north of Belmont, while Purple line trains have the outer tracks all to themselves. During non-rush hours, Purple line trains operate as a shuttle between Howard and Willmette (sp).
The Yellow line, as previously mentioned, is the Skokie Swift which operates during rush hours over a remnant of the North Shore's Skokie Valley route. It came into being in 1964, a year after the North Shore line went out of business, and still uses overhead catenary while the rest of the L uses third rail.
A few more details on these operations:
From November 3, 1913 to February 22, 1931, Ravenswood was through-routed with the Kenwood Branch. On February 23, 1931, the base service became Ravenswood-Loop only, with some rush hour trips through-routed with Englewood and Normal Park. Upon opening of the State Street subway on October 17, 1943, all Ravenswood service was through-routed with Englewood and Normal Park via the subway. This continued until July 31, 1949, when Ravenswood trains once again operated only as far south as the Loop via the "L."
Evanston was through-routed with Jackson Park from November 3, 1913 to July 31, 1949, with additional trips operating only between Howard and Jackson Park beginning in 1919. Through operation was via the subway from October 17, 1943. In the July 31, 1949 service rearrangement it switched to its present pattern, with a base shuttle service between Howard and Linden supplemented with rush hour express service to the Loop. In the 1950's there were also some mid-day Evanston Shopper's Special runs to the Loop.
The Niles Center line operated only as a shuttle between Howard and Dempster through its relatively brief life, 1925 to March 26, 1948. Confusingly, some Jackson Park-Howard or Jackson Park-Evanston trains did carry head signs listing Niles Center as a destination; but this always involved an across-the-platform transfer at Howard. The North Shore continued to use the same trackage (without making the local stops)until January 21 1963; and the CTA's Skokie Swift was inaugurated over the line on April 20, 1964. Even during the fifteen months when there was no revenue service on the line, the eastern half continued to be used for equipment moves to and from CTA's Skokie Shops.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Why are Evanston trains not through routed with Howard-Dan Ryan trains during off hours then?
Tradition, I guess - they weren't through routed when I lived there in the late '70s either, back when the line went to Jackson Park.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It doesn't make a lick of sense to terminate one train where another begins and continues down the line. This happens with yellow and red trains too, but that's for obvious reasons.
Red line trains are have more cars. The two shuttles Purple and Yellow use short trains to feed the red line where there is cappacity Howard is also a moajor north side bus hub.
So, run extended purple trains instead of some red line trains. The rest of the red trains would still go to Howard.
Well, IIRC there are platform length issues in Evanston that would make this a problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IIRC, the platforms in Evanston can accommodate 6-car trains while Red line platforms can handle 8-car trains.
I believe you're right. It's been too long since I've ridden them to remember for sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Yellow line, as previously mentioned, is the Skokie Swift which operates during rush hours over a remnant of the North Shore's Skokie Valley route. It came into being in 1964, a year after the North Shore line went out of business, and still uses overhead catenary while the rest of the L uses third rail.
Actually, when the Skokie Valley Route opened (1923, I believe) until 1950, L train shuttles operated between Howard and Niles Center (now the Dempster St/Skokie station) with several intermediate stops. L service was re-instituted as the non-stop Skokie Swift in 1964 after the North Shore Line stopped running about 1 1/2 yrs. earlier.
For a more detailed history, see Chicago ''L''.org
-- Ed Sachs
Thanks. I stand corrected.
Two things I saw yesterday while riding the R5 to Doylestown.
1) A new mosaic depicting the Philadelphia Museum of Art is being installed at the rear wall of the Regional Rail ticket/waiting area below the tracks.
2)While waiting for the crews to change at Suburban Station, I was surprised to see a blue SEPTA diesel #60 hauling ballast. We followed it up to Temple and I assume it went to Wayne Junction and Roberts Yard.
I actually haven't seen anybody mention it, which surprises me.
When the summer pick starts in the IRT (tentatively scheduled for June 4), weekday rush Bronx thru-express service will change. In the AMs, southbound 5 trains from Dyre Ave will make all stops from E. 180 to 3rd Ave. Southbound 2 trains from White Plains Rd will run express from E. 180 to 3rd Ave. In the PMs, this will be reversed, ie northbound trains will run express. No official word on what 5 trains from 238 will do, but they will PROBABLY also run local. This change will hopefully reduce congestion at E 180, as 2 trains will no longer be held while 5s cross their track to get into M Track.
The 5 White Plains service will also be Express.
That would be obvious because the 238th Street 5 trains parallel the 2 trains in the Bronx from that point south.
AFter the changes occur let's see how long it lasts before politics comes into play and it gets changed back.
Well, I'm glad the MTA has finally decided to do this. What took them so long to finally make this switch? I hated waiting for the 5 to cross in front of my 2 train, which already took forever because it makes so many stops in the Bronx and Harlem. Making the 2 express in the Bronx will make it faster.
I have been noticing two small television sets on some platforms on the Lexington Avenue lines.
These sets are in this box like structure and can be found either in the middle or the beginning of the platforms.
One place you can see them is at the beginning of the Jackson Avenue platform of the Northbound 2/5.
Does anybody know what those tv sets are used for? I figure they maybe CCTV, but for what reason and why only on some platforms? Thanks.
They're also at Brighton line and 6th Ave express stations.. I have often wondered what they were for also..
ian
I don't believe this was asked.
[Does anybody know what those tv sets are used for? I figure they maybe CCTV, but for what reason and why only on some platforms?]
I was simply stating that I wondered the same thing.
ian
There are also TV sets showing local news on platforms at Port Washington and Great Neck.
Never been able to figure out why, because the train noise renders it impossible to hear. Looks like more money down the old drain...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The ones at Babylon and sometimes Mineola and Hicksville tend to have the volume surge up about 30 seconds before the train arrives. It would make more sense if the volume would go up as the train was actually entering the station.
Occasionally I have seen the TV screens at Mineola show delays announcements after an automated NBC style chime followed by "May I have your attention please." Then it shows the information on the screen (which you can never see due to the glare from the sun. If it is in front of you, the sun is in your eyes. Behind you, it reflects.)
When this happens there usually is no announcement over the PA, and people have no idea what is going on due to the low volume of the TVs.
[There are also TV sets showing local news on platforms at Port Washington and Great Neck.
Never been able to figure out why, because the train noise renders it impossible to hear. Looks like more money down the old drain...]
Ronkonkoma too. Usually you can't hear a thing, but every so often the volume suddenly increases about 5000% and practically leaves you deaf.
Are you talking about the conductor's screens? There are cameras along the platform that are shown on the screens, so the conductor knows when to close the doors on curved and/or crowded platforms.
I guess that is what they are. It's strange. At Jackson Avenue they are at the beginning of the platform - I'm not sure if they are also at the middle of the platform.
I guess the motorman would need to get a clear view of the station platform also. This platform is pretty straight and doesn't get anymore crowded than the other stations. Perhaps they are testing the system at this particular station.
OPTO lurks in the wings...
Have you seen the platforms at these stations? Their either curved, or make a dip. It's a CCTV system that allows the conductor and sometimes the motorman to see that the doors are clear and the train can proceed on a limited-visibility platform such at 34st/6th Ave IND, South Ferry, Union Square, etc.
-Hank
At some stations, like Woodhaven/Queens Blvd, there are two boxes like this. The reason? G trains and other 8 (60') car length trains use one, and R trains and other 10 car length trains use another. I also see them at Smith & 9th Streets station.
5x60=300, 4x75=300
Wouldn't the center of an 8 car R-46 train and a 10 car R-32 train be in the same place?
I think that the second set of TV's would be for shorter G trains with 6 or 4 cars/OPTO.
It seems to me that R-40's are different, though. The conductors always use the alternate compartment than the T/O's. I always wondered about that. Someone enlighten me.
dave
No door controls in the cab at the slant end of an R40. No propulsion and brake controls in the square end cab.
Doesn't that offset the conductor from the stop markers by sixty feet?
So the conductor can see parts of the platform that are out of view easily. They have them at Wall Street on the J/M/Z heading to Queens for this reason.
Many congrats to 3 new Trolley Car Operators who are also SubTalkers, passed their road tests on 4/1, Doug aka BMTMan, Mr. t. and Lou from Brooklyn.
Now, I know that I will have to fight for the brake handle. Gosh darn it! Do I have to share the handle?
Just Kidding.
Cheers,
Stef
Actually there were nine in the class, 8 passed. If you qualifiy as a "pilot" you can stand next to me while I've got the handle ;-)
Mr t
If I were interested, in the upcoming months, in hitching a ride up to the Shoreline Trolley Museum from NYC, preferably the Queens area. Anyone willing to give a potential volunteer and fellow Subtalker a lift on a regular basis, assuming my upcomig job permits?
I don't have a car unfortunately, or you'd be riding with me. I too need to hitch a ride, but may be Mr. t or Doug aka BMTman can help.
Worst case scenario, you can always grab Metro North up to NH and take a cab or bus.
-Stef
I have the wheels but not the time. Working 6 days a week is not exacly my cup of tea. Damn computers!!!
Congrats to all of you! I only wish that my March schedule had permitted me to join the class ... but for better or worse that's my annual vacation to see my grandsons and as much as I love trolleys I love those boys more!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was looking through the R27/R30 pages and found a picture of R30 8357 in the Coney Island yard. (http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r2730/r30-8357.jpg) Parked next to it was an MBTA PCC car, number 3204! Does anyone know what this car was doing there? The picture is dated 10/13/79, a time when the MBTA was still using PCCs on the Green Line. Was this car being stored there for some reason? It looks to be in pretty good shape at the time of the photo. Perhaps it was there for some sort of event? Anyone with a clue as to what this car was doing in NYC, please post!
It was stored for the Trolley Museum of New York (Kingston NY).
Three MBTA PCCs were stored at Coney Island temporarily before being moved to Kingston. See http://www.mhrcc.org/tmny/tmnymbta.html.
That's a great picture. Since there's no trolley pole or wire there did they rig it to use the 3rd rail or did they just push/pull it there?
These cars have not been operated since they left Boston. They were moved to Kingston by flatbed truck. They will need a substantial amount of work to be made operable again. The trucks and undercarriage have bad rust from road salt.
The trucks and undercarriage are not usually the problem areas on these cars. Far more insidious are the posts running up the side of the car between windows. These are spot welded to the side sheets, leaving spaces between the posts and sheets where rust could form. Leaks through the roof monitor added to the problem. Consequently the side sheets buckle and the windows distort and even crack. This is more evident in the all electrics than in any other class. On the other hand, the battery box is below the floor and isolated from the main frame so the sagging rear end found on most Boston PCC cars doesn't happen to these. All of these cars left Boston in fairly good condition. With a good inspection, new batteries, cleaning of low voltage contacts, lubrication and some TLC they should be able to be made operational. We did it with 3127 at Seashore - the all electrics wouldn't be too much more difficult.
Contributions of manpower and money welcome. :-) TMNY has several cars which need basic stabilization done urgently. There are also a number of cars still off-site that need to be moved, which will strain the museum's resources.
Today's NY Times (www.nytimes.com) is reporting that business leaders, financial analysts and others have concluded that the proposed MTA capital plan would be a financial disaster, and leave the transit system with BOTH higher fares AND a return to deferred maintenance and decline a-la the 1970s.
At least people have caught on before the deed was done.
I too am glad to see that the plan's weaknesses have been exposed. That's the good part. The bad part is that no one seems to have any alternative ideas _other_ than having the taxpayers cough up more and more $$$. Absolutely nowhere in the article was there the barest mention of private financing for the expansion plans. True, the scope of the plans might make government $$$ unavoidable, but it would have been nice to hear even some discussion of alternatives.
(The bad part is that no one seems to have any alternative ideas _other_ than having the taxpayers cough up more and more $$$).
Just remember, transporation is one area where New York spends LESS than the rest of the U.S. Throw in contractors that get MORE, and you see we have a problem.
Transit is capital intensive(duh!). The likelihood that the capital needs will shrink sigificantly is zilch. The sham that bonds (or any other securities) can ever be repaid out of fares is a 19th century fantasy. The real question is what can be done to extract the money from the upstate pork barrelers.
(What can be done to extract money from the upstate pork barrelers).
The only way that will ever happen is as part of a deal to eliminate the downstate pork barrellers as well. Sadly, the opposite deal seems to hold.
Just when you thought you've heard it all, Steven Speilberg, -- impressed with the Daily News coverage of our beloved R-9 cab owner -- has bought the rights to the heypaul story.
Mr. Cruise, the first actor signed, at a press conference was quoted as saying, "I've had some challenging roles in the past where I've played a race car driver, pool shark and international spy, but I find portraying this math tutor somewhat more intriguing. He's a character that the common man can related to, and at the same time there is this unusal angle to the role because he has part of a subway train in his apartment. This could be my most challenging role of my career."
Filming is due to start sometime in late 2000.
Doug aka BMTman
P.S. HAPPY BELATED APRIL FOOLS!!!!!!!!!
doug--- i personally do not like the choice of tom
cruise to play me--- i would rather have maurice
gosfield (aka pfc dwayne doberman), but he is
unavailable due to death--- i noticed that there is
no response to either of our april fool's posts
doug... i think we're too good for this place... why
waste good material on an audience that's more interested
in the musical tones of the r-142's
Yes Tom Cruise will play the part ,but dies in the firt scene when he steppes on a very fresh,very tacky piece of chewing gum on an R/33 going into retirement and parked at the far end of the Flushing meadow yard and forgotten.At the end of the movie he is postumoously awarded the Polish National Hide & Seek Award and his Mummified remains are Displayed on top of the Information Booth at G.C.
The End
Ps In a cameo part the real Heypaul is seen gettig into a stretch limo in front of MTA headquaters on Madison Avenue.
LOL!!!
Sounds like a great Speilberg ending to me! :-)
Entertainment Tonight has reported that 'Heypaul: The Movie' is budgeted at $35 Million, with $20 million of that going to catering fees alone. Another $8 million has been promised to Mr. Cruise, leaving a whooping $7 million for actual filming of the life and times of Mr. Kronenberg.
A cast of thousands (mostly unknowns) has been assembled, with many being homeless people randomly rounded up and promised new refrigerator boxes if they appeared in the movie as extras.
Doug aka BMTman
The word is out "Heypaul" will host his own "Cooking with Heypaul" featuring "Card Board Jungle " recipies. Guest visitor will bring there own or improvised utinsiles, substitue ingrediants and party favors.
The trend will be toward Subway car emptying , gaseous dishes for under $.75. He will tour the world seeking the perfect menu to meet all the strict standards of slug worshiping cultures thriving in autoreclaimtion centers in all major cities.
His book "Extra Chunky Gravey and Bisquets" is now on Sale Farms and Ignoble. If you hurry , you can still make the Book Singhing!
avid
With those catering fees the PASTRAMI had better be good.
Peace,
Andee
I'm sorry but pastrami is obsolete. We urge you to switch to FoodTM brand Futurami meat like product.
I was leaving the Hunters Point Avenue LIRR station, recording sounds. After I left, I noticed a closed subway entrance next door to 2100 49th Avenue. (BTW, the open entrances are across the street.) Any info on this closed entrance?
Before the present IRT Flushing Line was constructed, there was a trolley turnaround loop in that area. Wonder if that closed entrance is part of it ....
--Mark
Maybe that closed entrance connects to the closed entrance at Essex Street, the site of another former trolley turnaround loop.
That would be a loooooooong walk!
Walk? No! The trollies run between the two terminals!
Nope ... I've been in the Essex St trolley terminal and didn't see any connecting passageway :)
--Mark
a native new yorker told me that a 5 day tourist unlimited use subway pass could be attained for a flat rate.. i just wanted to know if it was true. anyone?
[a native new yorker told me that a 5 day tourist unlimited use subway pass could be attained for a flat rate.. i just wanted to know if it was true. anyone?]
It's a 7-day unlimited pass, and costs $17.
There's also a one-day unlimited pass for $4 and a 30-day for $63.
do i purchase these passes at a booth? and what exactly do i ask for? 7 day tourist subway pass?
You ask for 7 day an unlimited ride Metrocard. They are on sale in token booths, in Metrocard machines, and in many hotels.
And they're not just for tourists.
There are no tourist passes !!!!
The is a 'Fun Pass' go from first use until Midnight the same day (available only from Metrocard vending machines)
There is also a 7 day unlimited which expires at midnight the 1 week later after the first swipe (swipe on Monday and the card expires at midnight the following Sunday). Available at all token booths and vending machines !!!
Enjoy the visit !!!
[The is a 'Fun Pass' go from first use until Midnight the same day (available only from Metrocard vending machines)]
Please don't mind a little nit picking on my part ... the one day Fun Pass, which is just a internal name, is good until 3 AM the next day. The 7 day & monthly unlimiteds expire at midnight, so hold on to you golden slippers. The point being that you'll almost never get the full 24 hours, they add 3 AM so you don't have to buy a second to get home.
P.S. There is also a "Single Ride" ticket for 1.50, but that's only go for two hours, so be careful at the machines.
Mr t__:^)
[Single ride tickets]
What is What do you get when you mix a token with a bus transfer?
ICYDK, that was Jeopardy! themed. Now, the explanation.
Bus transfers expire in 2 hours, so do the single ride tickets.
No Subway-Bus or vice versa transfers, just like bus transfers.
They can be used in either the subway or the bus, just like tokens.
Regis, that's my final answer!
The Fun Pass is also available from newsstands and other off-system vendors.
Another message mentions how and where you buy the 7-day passes. The one-day passes ("Fun Passes") are available at newsstands and at MetroCard vending machines found in many subway stations, but they are *not* sold at token booths.
[The one-day ..."Fun Passes" ... but they are *not* sold at token booths.]
Right you are, but they sell another kind of fun pass for $1.50, it's called a TOKEN and doesn't ever expire, until used that is.
This person isn't ever going to ask us another question ?
Mr t__:^)
One of the catches in the Metrocard system is that the Metrocard vending machines generally deliver plain Metrocards, with no identifying wrapping. Sometimes a rider with several cards in his pocket needs to remember which card is 1-day, which card is per ride. The outsider arriving in Grand Central might try the transit museum store (located adjacent to Metro North's small waiting room at the west end of the main concourse), where all Metrocards are sold with identifying wrappers. If one arrives in Penn Station, Fun Passes (and the other cards, too) are generally available in their wrappings at any Hudson News stand. If I buy a Metrocard from a vending machine, I try to mark the back in some way to indicate its type.
You can get a receipt, it tells you the card you bought and it's serial number, but looking at receipts and checking serial numbers all the time isn't convenient.
I usually get mine from the MTA web site via credit card. It comes with a pass for the Subway Museum with each order. The funny thing about that, it comes from out of state....Texas.
Is is total incompetence or total indifference to the ridership when
1 - The sign at 14th and Lex northbound local platform STILL says
'Late nights take 4 to 125th ST for #6 on lower level. The number 6 started 24 hour operations in October
2 - Announcements on #4 and #5 on weekends at Brooklyn Brigde and Fulton say 'Change for J, M, Z when J and M aren't running
3 - Redbirds going north on Lexington still have the southbound destination signs showing after going around the loops.
4 - It took them over 6 months to correct the sign at the enterance to Bowling Green (Metrocad to Metrocard)
Im sure there are many, many other examples.
Its too bad that the offending parties can't be docked a few hundred dollars if they don't shape up.
23rd st station (local) has a sign about 5 trains to Pelham Bay.
I think it got installed when 6 started 24h operation.
Arti
Since this is not an official MTA NYCT Website, this may not be the most benificial venue to air your complaints. Why not call the NYCT directly? 1-718-330-1234
Done so may times I can't count !!
They say 'thank you' but then I think it ends up in the garbage.
They rarely listen to politicians, so a single passenger wont be listened to !!!!.
NONESENSE. Every time there is a customer complaint related to my operation, I have to thoroughly investigate it and write a detailed report about my findings and what action I took to correct it if applicable. Every customer complaint, unless anonymous, gets a written reply.
To Train dude-do you work for the TA ?
Yes I do. I work in the Department of Subways/Division of Car Equipment.
That's nothing! 63rd Drive had a sign at the west end of the Manhattan bound platform showing N trains to Coney Island and F local trains (I don't remember exactly what the times were for the F) until about 1997 or 1998.
Is is total incompetence or total indifference to the ridership when
1 - The sign at 14th and Lex northbound local platform STILL says
'Late nights take 4 to 125th ST for #6 on lower level. The number 6 started 24 hour operations in October
Complaining about a sign that hasn't been changed since October.... Boy are we spoiled these days ;-)))
Original IRT and BMT signage lasted well into the 1970's -- long after many of the service patterns had changed. I even vaguely recall signs directing people to the Second Avenue El -- 20 YEARS after it came down. Now we complain about the MTA failing to change signs in 4 months -- from my perspective THAT'S FAST!!!
Back in the days of David Gunn, who incidently rode the subways to work, nobody really demanded better of the TA. We had double letter signage for years after it was discontinued. I remember an EE sign at 59 and Lex as late as four years ago but no one cared. We now have a president who only seems to show up after a wreck or for a ceremony so they don't know what is going on but the supervisory force created under David Gunn which mushroomed into a supervisory force of over 5000 SHOULD know and act when something out of the ordinary is reported. So to answer your question, it is total incompetence. Maybe not total indifference if one could prove that our TOP managers do ride the subways to work. Why should elected and appointed officials really care anyway? They are charged with the management of the school system but don't trust their own work enough to place their own kids in it.
I think too much emphasis is placed on things like signage and announcements, because they are easy to measure, as opposed to service frequency, consistency, and speed, and crowding, which are more difficult to measure. The latter have improved.
Really? Then what's all this talk about the higher passenger load causing crowding and a resulting need for more cars?
I think a car shortage has affected some lines, but in general where there is crowding it's due to infrastructure issues.
1. Too many lines west of 5th Avenue, no Second Avenue Subway.
2. Manhattan Bridge deterioration; half the tracks out.
3. Queens Blvd line not connected to the 63rd St tunnel.
Crowding STILL isn't as bad as in the 1980s on the F, the A/C, and the IRT in Brooklyn. The only place I really see it is on the Brighton and the Lex. If they had carried out the orignial MTA plan, and made an intellegent decision about the Manny B in 1982, we wouldn't be in this situation.
There is no official car shortage. The division of car equipment is required to provide 547 trains daily. This is done without fanfare. Hence, no car shortage
(The division of car equipment is required to provide 547 trains daily. This is done without fanfare. Hence, no car shortage)
The term car shortage is used here in another sense. If the MTA decided it wanted to run 570 trains, could it be done withnout the arrival of the new cars? More specifically, could the number of B division trains be increased prior to the arrival of the R143s? My sense is, no. If there are additional cars available, I'm sure there would be lots of opinions as to where to put them.
With the current numbers and fleet sizes, some shops are on the cusp of discomfort when it comes to making service. Meaning that they are very close to max on their hold counts each AM. IF push came to shove, there are things every shop can do to push an extra train or two out into service. But, to address your hypothetical question, I doubt whether we could squeeze an extra 23 trains out every AM given the current fleet size.
Where would transit put all those cars? Track space is full as it is during the morning rush hour and during off hours they have enough trains laid up. In short new york has if anything too many cars
You MUST go to an additional car per trainto increase capacity!
Relocate the storage area stealing platform space that now denies the use of 660 ft 6th and 8th ave trains.
The ny merto area will grow , population WILL grow , Demand for transit will grow , Might as well let the current generation enjoy the benifits now ,of the enevidible..
Sounds like we need another yard, too.
It's easy to confuse apples and oranges. If you are talking about main line capacity for more trains,Some lines can handle more service. The 63rd St line will increase capacity on the Queens Blvd line, for example. Other lines could absorb shorter headways comfortably. Lest we restart the thread, the Lexington line is not one of them. As for storage for more cars, we know that space is not adequate but neither is it a priority. The land has been available for several years to add 25 tracks to Jamaica yard. This would eliminate the need for mai-line storage under current service needs or would hold the 14 Q trains scheduled to be layed up on Queens Blvd. plus 10 or 11 other e & F trains currently layed up on D-4 track north of Continental Avenue. We're about to find out how elastic our yards can be as Redbirds, as they are replaced by R-142s) are stored throughout the system and kept in readiness should the need arise. Concourse yard will be storing a minimum of 40 redbirds in addition to its normal compliment of A division, B division and C division cars.
BTW: Plans are in the works to move cars 1438 & 1440 to make room for the redbirds.
What's the C division?
C division is the division that governs the operation of work trains.
Post complaints about signage to nyc.transit--there's an MTA phantom there who gets these things fixed right away.
Last night on Fox I saw the most bullshit car ad on Fox. It shows a group of commuters riding a commuter train. From the looks on their faces it seems as if they would be rather eating cow dung. Then, on the freeway next to the tracks, drives up a guy in a red GM convertable. All the people in the train watch him as he drives next to the train, having the time of his life. Then the train enters a tunnel and the people look at eachother, all looking very depressed. The ad was about how a GM credit card can help you realize your "dream" of buying a GM car.
After seeing this I couldn't believe that with all the environmental impact, recent gas prices, insurance costs etc. GM is still up to its old tricks of trying to brainwash people to abandon transit and get on the roads. If the commercial had tried to be accurate the guy in the car would have been stuck in traffic, he would have been chokeing on exasut fumes from the truck in front of him (top was down) and there would be a hose, on one end connected to his wallet, on the other end connected to the gas tank, insurance agent, parking lot attendant and police officer. I just can't believe what bullshit this was.
Yup, this stuff still goes on. Remember the people waiting at a bus stop in the rain (with a passing car spalshing them) as the hot young chick gets in her entry level economy car (forget which one). The auto industry is so desperate they are even trying to lure the last few transit riders out of their car, with the "transit is for losers" theme.
That's why I try to keep my kids from watching much TV.
[Last night on Fox I saw the most bullshit car ad on Fox. It shows a group of commuters riding a commuter train. From the looks on their faces it seems as if they would be rather eating cow dung.]
I ride the LIRR. I'll take the cow dung any day.
OK, so why don't your drive instead?
[OK, so why don't your drive instead?]
If riding on the LIRR is like eating cow dung, driving on the Long Island Expressway during rush hour is like eating month-old, fermented, worm-filled pig* dung.
* = by "pig," I mean the kind with a curly tail that goes "oink oink." I don't mean the Royal Island kind.
YUMMMMEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!
Looks like I picked the wrong time to SubTalk and dine.
-Hank :)
I'm kind of surprised that an auto maker considers commuters a major market for a new car.
Out my way, people don't ride the commuter rail because it's cheap (it isn't) or because they don't have a car (they do--and parking it at the train station is one of the bigger hassles) or because they feel they're being environmentally sensitive (gimme a break).
They mostly ride because driving is too much a pain in the butt.
Subliminally, maybe GM is trying to convey the idea that localities shouldn't "waste" money on new commuter rail when every one really wants a new car instead.
[I'm kind of surprised that an auto maker considers commuters a major market for a new car.
They mostly ride because driving is too much a pain in the butt.
Subliminally, maybe GM is trying to convey the idea that localities shouldn't "waste" money on new commuter rail when every one really wants a new car instead.]
It would be interesting to find out what agency created that ad. My guess is that it was *not* based in NYC, as surely someone at the agency would have noted the point you mentioned and brought it to GM's attention.
ISTR that GM has or had a "captive" agency as part of its corporate structure and therefore effectively does at least some of its ads in-house. If so, it's easier to understand why GM came out with this particular ad. The company's headquarters in in Detroit, which along with Houston is one of the two major metropolitan areas in the United States that are completely without rail transit (unless you count downtown Detroit's People Mover as a form of transit, which is sort of stretching things). It's entirely possible that the people who created and approved the ad have as much knowledge of rail transit as I do of Bulgarian folk dancing.
Well, you know, car ads are always obnoxious. Consider the VW campaign:
"In the road of life there are passengers and there are drivers. Drivers wanted."
The commercials showed caffeine-crazed go-getters speeding like crazy.
Look at the assorted jabronies on the bus in "Speed." Sandy Bullock is the only passenger who looks like she can tie her own shoes.
That's the reality of what mass transit 'customers' are thought of in the ad inductry and in Hollywood.
www.forgotten-ny.com
(Transit passengers not well thought of)
The flip side is that lots of ads have shown people on the train recently, and that was only one to show transit travel in a bad light (there is the opera singing commuter out there as well).
Ten years ago, no one even showed people on a train. Because the advertizing industry is here, I get the feeling that the ads are showing transit to be more prominent than it is. You are also getting more people capable of buying a car living in urban environments than actually do.
(Of course, these commercials may only be shown in the NYC area, with others shown in other regions).
Re: the opera singing commuters. It's a Guinness commercial, and Irish/British/European companies are less likely to have the popular American perception of public transit.
I agree that this GM Credit commercial is the first I've heard of (haven't seen it) in a long time that was really anti-transit. I don't count the "only every eight minutes" apartment-by-the-elevated Burger King ad as being anti-transit.
"Ten years ago, no one even showed people on a train."
Everyone likes to make fun of all the twentysomethings-in-New-York shows on television, as they consist of self-centered characters living in much bigger apartments than anyone with their jobs could afford in reality. But, IMHO, at least they show "beautiful people" who don't have cars. The shows don't draw attention to the fact that the characters don't drive, but you wouldn't expect them to (they're entertainment, not social commentary) and at least they show characters popularly seen as "successful" not needing to own a car.
How about the ad showing so old lay enjoying the bikers breath. It was several years ago , but it occasionally pops up.
avid
I've enjoyed your breath ever since Ninety-sixth Street?
[Look at the assorted jabronies on the bus in "Speed." Sandy Bullock is the only passenger who looks like she can tie her own shoes.]
And remember, she was riding the bus only because her driver's license had been suspended for speeding.
Off topic: Speaking of Sandra Bullock, she's an excellent example of a once-big star whose career is sinking like the Titanic. Five years ago, she was one of the hottest "properties" in Hollwood. And today? If she doesn't land another big hit, and soon, she'll be a trivia question before the decade is out.
Well, Julia Roberts was on a cold streak for a long time, and now she's the biggest money maker in Hollywood...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sandy Bullock was also the star of "While You Were Sleeping", the 1995 CTA based romantic comedy
If you like Sandra Bullock, be sure to see "Who Shot Patakango". It could be her first movie. It may go in the record books as one of the worst movies ever made.
[If you like Sandra Bullock, be sure to see "Who Shot Patakango". It could be her first movie. It may go in the record books as one of the worst movies ever made.]
Even before that, in 1990 or thereabouts, Ms. Bullock (then a complete unknown) appeared in an ultra-low-budget turkey called "Fire on the Amazon." It was so bad, indeed, that the studio decided not to release it. Some years later, after "Speed" made Ms. Bullock a big star, the studio finally released "Fire on the Amazon" to video. Quite a flurry of interest soon developed because rumor had it that in a few scenes she appeared, as the French would say, deshabille. Yet legions of lusty video renters were disappointed. In none of these scenes did Ms. Bullock actually show, as the British would say, any naughty bits. During the filming she had placed flesh-colored tape over the aforementioned naughty bits just to make sure that there was no accidental exposure.
I suspect that Blockbuster, Hollywood Video, etc. no longer stock "Fire on the Amazon." Pity.
Didn't Sandra Bullock look great driving that GM Fishbowl? She can be my bus driver any day.
Chuck Greene
Do you mean she can be your BUS DRIVER, or do you mean she can DRIVE YOUR BUS?
-Hank :)
(Double-entedre pun should've been EXPECTED!)
Rim Shot!!!
cant some of you subtalkers not use such foul language like bull___!! tv car ad.
what about children and young people who use the internet and visit this forum ??
or do you even care ?.....!!!
Bovine scatology TV car ad.
This page is mostly for New Yorkers and I'm sure they are used to alot worse.
What I noticed from that ad is that the train looks fake.
The outside looks like it may be a subway car such as the R-32 or other model with corrugated sides under the windows. But the interior is obviously a mock-up. No subway cars look like that. I assume, of course, that the train was supposed to be from NYC since it looked like one from the outside.
sounds like exactly what they did to los angeles !! ............!
I think you are taking this ad way too seriously. GM is trying to inject a little humor into it's advertising, so what. Lighten up a bit. I don't think the point of the ad is that 'transit is for the slugs' but that you will enjoy yourself more in a GM product than on the railroad, subway, etc.
"but that you will enjoy yourself more in a GM product than on the railroad, subway, etc."
I know, that's the problem. They are saying that its better to commute in a GM product than in that stupid train. However, the ad failed to show all the realities of highway commuting and instead showed a guy flying along on an empty road. Well sure if I could get gas for $.75 and I had all the roads to my self I'd drive to, but in the real world driving sucks. This ad can only trick people into a life of misery and waste as they work for their car. Plus the ad was for the GM credit card that put %5 towards a new GM car. The ad implied that the ppl in the train could use this card because they were otherwise too poor to afford one. They are basically saying poor trash = transit, rich privilaged = car.
Driving is always better than a bus, except in an extremely parking deprived area like Manhattan. I don't live near a subway, my preffered method of commuting is drive, park on streets near subway express stop, take subway.
Buses scare me and I have no clue how the fare system works. I much prefer driving (or in my town walking or biking) and then riding the rails. BTW how do you reach the pedals and do you have a human mask so that people driving next to you won't freak out.
Actually, the Boarsheviks had a robot. I would climb in and my pig movements would be translated to the human like robot. However the head would still show, so that really SCARES people. The Boarsheviks are working on that. Since those bastards got rid of me, they constantly send pigs over to take back their robot, but I make believe I don't speak Oinklish and they go away. I would give it back to them, but the Organization of Independent Neutral Kentuckians which I know lard isn't as rich doesn't have these fancy robots. They can't even afford to finish building their office! We all telecommute. I hope to turn this around however, I mean it was I who brought prosperity to the Boarsheviks.
GM and the oil companies and others ripped out the rail systems we once had here in los angeles .!!
That's why it's >>>>LOST ANGELES<<<
Gee, I kinda liked that ad. I think I'm gonna buy that red convertible.
I saw in Septa's free paper this morning a writeup (in the Septa
section) about public hearings being held for service restoration to
Wawa on the (now) Media/Elwyn line.
Amazing - Septa restoring service. I feel myself getting faint... :)
On a sad note, the Newtown tracks have been paved over up in Newtown
about .2 miles from the end of the line at a crossing, and there's
some concrete structure being build in the middle of the tracks
that I'm guessing isn't a coal bin. *sigh*
I stopped by the terminus in West Chester to see what it looked like. Restoration of service would be great. I think some tourist line already runs on it and the wires are pretty much intact (saw some loose ends near the Rt. 202 bridge though). I'm sure they could get enough ridership to warrent the $$. Besides W. Chester the line directly serves Chaney College and the Wawa station is right off Rt. 1.
It won't be SEPTA's first extension. Keep in mind that the Airport line, Hatboro to Warminster, Media to Elwyn, West Manayunk to Ivy Ridge, Paoli to Thorndale, and (long ago) Fox Chase electrification all happened as a result of SEPTA's actions. We like to dump on SEPTA but it does a decent job sometimes.
What do you mean Hatboro to Warminster? The Reading did that and the Fox Chase extention to. Might have used some public funds, but the Reading was still in control. Also you can call Ivy Ridge an extention because it used to go all the way to Norristown and now it only goes to Cynwyd. Also remember back in 1994 when SEPTA went out all the way to Parksburg. I'd hardly call Thorndale an extention, its more like a re-tention. I don't mean to rag on your or SEPTA, but we should all realize that they cut more than they extended. I think that all things considered, SEPTA is doing a bang up job and is making a real turn-around. In the future I can see the West Chester line back open, same with the R8 line to that centre of sprall, Newtown (possibly with wires). I can also see restoration of service to Coatsville and Parksburg. Far in the future I can even see service to Reading (possibly using the PRR RoW to Noristown as its route. I can see it crossing a restored Flat Rock bridge and continuing on into Suburban Station. As a pipe dream I would like to see the R2 extended to Perryville and a link up with MARC. This would provide an Amtrak alternative to all those budget minded travelers on the NEC.
I certainly would enjoy a way to DC by avoiding Amtrak (cheap).
Didn't I hear something about service to Quakertown?
That's part of the study to reactivate the line off of the R5 at Lansdale.
SEPTA has also finally decided on a full commuter rail option ofr the Schuykill Valley Metro and is considering dual-mode engines for the line. You can find more information at the DVARP site.
I had the great pleasure of being back in NYC last week and riding
from Penn Station up to 57th & 7th on the R. I think it was an R44 I
was on (NY stencilled walls, 75', 4 door) and I noticed a very nice
mooing coming from the trucks. Did these have the old motor gearings?
Its an R46. R44 is on the A and C, R46 is on F, G, R, and occasionally the E.
R44's are not on the C. They are on the A and Rockaway Shuttle. If any 75 foot long cars run on the C, it would have to be the R46 cars from the G line. The cars that look anything like R-44 cars are the R110B cars.
R44's and R46's are virtually identical looking. The difference is that the R44 has a gray painted stripe down the length of the car, whereas the R46's exterior is completely bare stainless steel. Their braking systems make distinctivly sounds, and there are some minor interior cosmetic differences. Mechanically, they're quite different and are totally incompatible.
There were a few instances where R44 cars did run on the C, I think there was a post claiming that one such 8-car set of R44's did run on the C.
That post was quite a while ago, though.
Nick
Is the R-68 on the F at all?
No, but you'd think it would, seeing as how it has one of its two yards as Coney Island. Also, I wonder why R-46s aren't on the N, D, and Q. The digital signs can show N and D, since I saw such signs as N to Canal St. on the first 2 cars of a Jamaica bound R and D to Queens Plaza on a train leaving Jamaica Yard (before they fenced off the overpass over the Grand Central). I also saw the codes for these routes on the list inside the cab.
Then again, if the F ran R68s they would not be able to leave some at Jamaica overnight or on the Hillside exp tracks (go against concentration of fleet).
Subway cars are assigned to maintenance shops, not to yards. R-46s can be seen in Coney Island Yard (the part called "City Yard"), but they're not assigned to Coney Island Shop. The electronic signs on the R-46s (and R-44s) can display hundreds of readings, some of which will never be used (but they're there "just in case").
David
1,042 different messages (some 3 lines) to be exact.
... all of which were printed in various editions of NYD ERA's "Bulletin".
--Mark
Any way they can be made available on the net?
Since it's copyrighted material by the ERA, you'd have to ask them if they'd be willing to post it on their website.
--Mark
Unfortunately, we don't have a website at the moment, but we hope to have one up shortly (yes, I know I've said that before ).
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
That's a lot of messages. What sort of 3-line messages are there?
Queensbound F trains use a 3-line message.
F|to179 ST/QUEENS|
F| 6 AV LOCAL |
F| QUEENS EXPRESS|
In case you've never seen it, there it is.
Would "F CROSSTOWN LOCAL|F to179 ST/QUEENS" or "F CROSSTOWN LOCAL|F to CONEY ISLAND" happen to be one of them?
I remember seeing R-46 cars on the Q line once. This was a while back. Maybe the Q line didn't have enough R68 cars (which were running on the line at that time. R40 slants were still on the B).
I also saw an R46 set on the B back in 1995, for about a week.
A few years ago, there were a some R44/46 gap trains staged in a few locations for the PM rush. They were staged on various storage tracks in Manhattan. They were used on whatever line needed them: A/C for the R44's and B/D/E/F/N/Q/R for the R46's. After the rush, the trains were returned to Jamaica/Pitkin/207 to be in place for the next AM rush.
I did see one set of R46's signed up as a "D" train around the same time layed up on the Second Ave. stub tracks. It was there for several days.
The R-46s did run on the D line back in the early 80s, I think. They were removed because Brighton Beach residents complained of excessive vibrtion from their trucks (and replcaed with R-10s). Now with car fleets assigned to maintenence shops, it kind of makes sense that they don't run on the D line.
--Mark
Every R46 is assigned to the Jamaica Yard, and none to coney Island. Which is why all R46 cars run on the EFGR lines.
Mercifully, no.
Wayne
when they first came out I did catch 1 or 2 F's of r 68's but they were thenmoveed to where they are now
I remember once while I was waiting at the Lexington Av/53 St station, a short train of what I believe to be R68's. It sounded its horn and passed through the station. I don't remember what direction it was running. I do remember that there was no sign in the front. I saw the flourescent lights that light up the sign, but there was no sign there.
R68's on the F? Never saw it, and I don't think I will. Unless the R46's get scrapped and the R68's take their place.
THe R68 had a few cars assigned to the F in 1987. None since.
I once saw an 8 car train of R68s signed up as an "N" go through 71/continental ave. It went through the Jamaica Yard leads. I never saw it again.
Not since 1987
When I was a child in the 1960's, there was an abandoned train station at the northern end of the Bronx botanical gardens, where Mosholu Parkway begins. I do not know if it is still there, although it could be. Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks.
Well, the Botanical Gardens station is still there. There is, if I remember correctly, an abandoned station building there.
Besides the Metro North Botanical Gardens station, I've never heard of another Botanical Gardens station. Is there an abandoned New York Central railroad line anywhere near there? That's the only logical explanation I can think of.
Besides the Metro North Botanical Gardens station, I've never heard of another Botanical Gardens station. Is there an abandoned New York Central railroad line anywhere near there? That's the only logical explanation I can think of.
The March issue of the "Tripper" has a nice picture (although small) of Subtalkers as Spacemen. Stef, Thurston, Lou S and Lou L are all pictured during the R-17 steel dust clean-up. Stef, Is that you in the background, sitting down? With those spacesuit like outfits, it would be impossible to identify anyone.
Oh, I see you've been reading the Tripper haven't you old friend? Well yes, I'm sitting down in the background while Lou L. (Lou from Bklyn) looks positively extraterrestrial, Mr. t is at his side, and Lou S. is at the far left. This really was fan appreciaition day, PLAYING IN THE R-17 MUCK! We enjoyed the muck and got down and dirty with the axiflow fans which protrude from the car ceiling. I'd like to do more when possible.
I love the title of this post!!!!
-Stef
You know, the "Tripper" is a great way to keep up with what is going on up there when one can't be there in person. I look forward to it every month, but the US Mail really let me down by waiting till today to deliver the March issue. I wanted to tell you that it looks like all of 6688's lights are on in the picture, and the lenses are clean. I really would have thought that steel dust would have really been building up in those covers, because of that high pressure air that you were using.
Since I took that award-winning photograph, I can tell you that Mr. Jeff H. accidentally created Steff with being Lou Shavell, 3rd.
And yes, besides qualifying on trolley cars, Lou and Thurston have passed most of their NASA Space Shuttle training!!
Doug aka BMTman
You worked on the steel dust cleanup, did you have one of those outfits on when you took that picture? One never gets to see the photographer.
Yes, I can attest to wearing one of those "body condoms".
Doug aka BMTman
We all had the outfits. Unfortunately, mine was a little on the small side and I ripped mine up in a matter of minutes. It didn't matter though - I was wearing old rags so I continued on. The ultimate picture would have been me kicking the muck around, and for even more laughs, a picture of my face covered in grit. How do you like that? Even the project leader headed for the hills while I took a mouthful of dirt. Yuk! As bad as that sounds, I'm interested in going back up there and doing a little more work. Some repairs need to be made and maybe I can clean a little more around the 3rd and 4th fans when it is convenient. Did someone say we were wearing body condoms? Shame on you Doug!
Dougie was right. The son of Lou S. assisted us on this day and he rightfully deserves credit in the picture. That day I came late, due to errands that had to be run and couldn't be avoided.
-Stef
I just realized that we have never had an official Subtalk Chat. Now I know that the exulted Website Host does not like chats and probably won't provide a chat service here, but I still think we could make regulurly schedualed chats work. So first does anybody already have a chat room on one of their sites or does anyone know of another transit chat room that we could use. If the answer to both of those is "NO" then I know this kid who has an industrial strength (ie meant for large groups) chat room on his Conrail page. I forget the address, but he is always trying (in vain) to set up Conrail-Talk chats. I could send a few e-mails and "rent" it out for an evening if that is people here would actually come and chat.
Try the site with the BAHN message board. It is http://beseendb.looksmart.com/chat/. Also, we could set something up in AOL's People Connection for the AOL members. I have brought this idea up before.
The problem with AOL is that people have to sell their soul to the devil to participate in those chat rooms (selling one's soul to the devil is the same as joining AOSmell). Remember when I criticized WebTV? I would definitely join that before I join AOL.
I WOULD RIDE IN AN R-33 SINGLE EVERY DAY FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE BEFORE I WOULD JOIN AOL!
Well, If anyone wants one, I have a chat capable of holding 50 at any time. You first have to register your name with the server. It's at WWW.TALKCITY.COM
If anyone is interested, Mail me for the room name.
I wouldn't say I don't like chats. My bias against them is that there are so many chat systems out there, it is not worth the effort to install a special one here. I also don't think that a web browser is the optimal interface for real-time-chat. The only ones that really work are Java based and Java just blows, especially if you're behind a firewall. A chat on an IRC server I think would be a good idea.
Well most of the Java chats I've been in have worked fine. The one I was regering to was really no-frills and designed to accomidate large amounts of people. Due to a long and involved story I have vowed never to use ICQ or IRC.
SubForum has a chatroom if you've never noticed. I am unsure if membership is required, you don't need membership to read messages or post, so I assume the same is true of the chatroom.
My Dutch Forgotten Fans tell me that Canarsie's Varkens Hook Road means "pigs corner" or "corner where pigs are sold".
Make of that what you will.
www.forgotten-ny.com
That's where the Boarsheviks wanted to build their headquarters, since they were stupid enough not to re-elect me as Chairpig of the Board (that's BOARd), that deal fell through.
Don't worry about me though, I'm now the larder of the Organization of Independent Neutral Kentuckians.
So, that's why the PIGvolution has stalled
president of the transverse cab car club inc ...!!
One Pig Train Operation -- they need a roomy cab :->
100% total agreement !! you stole my thunder ( thanks )....
There is a gentlemen by the name of George Kelleher who is one of your fellow volunteers at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine. I had the distinct pleasure of having George as my guide at the Connecticut Trolley Museum in Windsor Locks 2 years ago. He was one of the nicest and most knowledgable guides that I ever encountered. Do you know if George plans to be at Windsor Locks again on Sundays this upcoming Summer ? If so I would like to make a return visit and encourage my fellow posters on this website to do likewise. I feel we can all learn a lot from this man.
KING SOLOMON
I agree George is an excellent guide. However I don't know of his plans for this summer. If I see him at Seashore I'll be sure to ask him.
I am typing on my daughter's computer at home so I got on this Website, but since Friday I have been unable to get on at my school where I wow my students with my historical brilliance. What is not so brilliant is the fact that I haven't a clue as to why I can't get on. All I do when I hit the Subtalk button is get something like ------Urel-- and a lot of mumbo jumbo that says my attempt didn't go through. When I tried to get on my colleague;s machine I did. What gives? Is their some way to get on? Was this site down for a time?Hey Dave Pirrmann, help me out. What gives? It's getting to me like Mission Impossible for me at school. Come on guys, someone out there give me an effort. I need to get back on in school. I'll look for some answers tomorrow on my E=Mail. Thanks for listening.
I am no expert but, it sounds like a firewall problem. Have you tried talking to your network administrator?
Peace,
Andee
I'm not sure what his problem is, but I've also been having a problem. Is it just a coincidence that Dave has been letting the number of messages on line grow (in response to expressions of interest in older messages being left on the system) and the system's response time has been slowing down noticeably. Maybe it's just that more of us are trying to get on at the same time. At any rate, since browser software will "time out" after a certain period without response, it is possible that the machine which can't get through has a time out setting in its browser options which is set too low to tolerate the slower response time.
Well, like I told you in email, without some more detailed error messages, ("something like Urel" is hardly helpful) I can't be of much use. Obviously you can tell that lots of people are getting here and able to post. Is your problem only happening at school and not at home? Perhaps there is a network help desk at your school that could do some investigation.
My problem has been at home. I have no problem getting to the main area of Sub-talk or any other site. But when I click on Sub-talk or try to go directly I get a Connection Timed Out.
I think it may have something to do with the cookies established by Sub-Talk. I tried to get to subtalk using another screen name I have in AOL and it went thru w/o a problem. I then took a chance and reloaded the AOL software and had AOL's Internet software reload - effectively "wiping out" the cookies and so far it has worked fine.
Dave, this did not happen until you instituted the password control on postings.
Alan: I just found out that I'm bag on Subtalk on my computer. I don;t know for how long, nor am I getting my hopes too high. I have been doing a slow burn since Friday. Maybe the worst is over, but who knows. Something was (maybe still is) amiss. Some of my tech people are going to be busy over Easter break because I want none of this to bug me when I get back.
I guess misery loves company. I also have trouble sometimes getting into this field of subtalk. I get a connection time out also. I go into other fields with no problem at all.Only this field gives me problems sometimes. I thought it was my computer but feel better now knowing I'm not the only one with this problem. Maybe too many people in at the same time. Either way, the website operators need to look into this problem. BIG AL
Big Al: Yes they do. And fast. I was doing a slow burn for four days because of it. My people here said it was Subtalk's fault, Dave said it was my server's fault. Who the hell knows? All I know was that I was in drydock for four days and it stunk. I'm back on now but, then again, who knows for how long? I just hope this doesn;t happen again.
Fred,
The problem has to be somewhere in this site. If I am having problems
via AOL and you are having problems via your IP etc, etc, etc, then it can't be us.
Dave, you are going to have to breakdown and look into the problem.
Allan
Look, 68452 SubTalk hits so far this week, 102215 last week, and 300 or so posts in the past two days says there's not a significant problem with the server. The whole site does over a million HTTP requests a week. Of course there are times where the server is congested, the network is down, etc. What do you really expect me to do with the resources I have? Do you think I'm a Yahoo or Amazon with infinite resources here? When I see some cash coming into the site to buy a fancy-schmancy new server and move to a super-well connected backbone ISP, I'll be the first to agree improvements can be made. We've been through this before. If you really want something for nothing I could host the site on GeoCities with stupid pop up ads, banner ads, and watermarks.
[Do you think I'm a Yahoo or Amazon with infinite resources here?]
Dunno about Yahoo, but the way Amazon keeps hemorraging cash, before long you probably *will* have more resources than they do :-)
Dave, you're doing a great job. Yes, we all get frustrated a bit, but most of us have been around this stuff from both sides long enough to recognize that there are many factors affecting the access quality. Based on what I see your only limiting factor is your success, and I think we can all live with that!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Dave: How much in contributions would it take from each of us in order for you to get a super connected ISP? I wouldn't mind giving my fair share. You have to understand that this Subtalk is big stuff to us. There is no other place on my computer, any program, any website that I can compare to this one. So if you have to ask for donations, and that is what it takes, then do so. We'll see if the others are as much for keeping this site in A-1 condition as we are. By the way, I couldn't get on the first time I tried this morning. When I got on the NYCsubway.org site, I quickly hit subtalk before it said document complete below. When I waited for the document complete the second time I got right on. Is their a connection there? Maybe?
Given the amount of disk space we take up and size of total transfers a month (about 1.5 gig disk space, about 50 gig of transfers a month) it would cost a couple thousand a month to host it on a serious, business-class, well connected web hosting site. Believe me, no amount of contributions will ever add up to that. The volume that this site does each month places it way out of the realm of "personal web site" and well into "business" categories for pricing. I think panix.com would charge around $2500/month and I don't consider them particularly well connected or primarily in the business of running web hosting farms...
Well you answered that one for me. It was just an idea, but as long as I can get on Subtalk I'm happy. It was a rough four days when I couldn't and what's strange is that I still don;t have a clue as to why.
I have no trouble getting on Subtalk! Maybe it is your ISP?
His school is his ISP.
Hey Dave: How much in contributions would it take from each of us in order for you to get a super connected ISP? I wouldn't mind giving my fair share. You have to understand that this Subtalk is big stuff to us. There is no other place on my computer, any program, any website that I can compare to this one. So if you have to ask for donations, and that is what it takes, then do so. We'll see if the others are as much for keeping this site in A-1 condition as we are. By the way, I couldn't get on the first time I tried this morning. When I got on the NYCsubway.org site, I quickly hit subtalk before it said document complete below. When I waited for the document complete the second time I got right on. Is their a connection there? Maybe?
Given the amount of disk space we take up and size of total transfers a month (about 1.5 gig disk space, about 50 gig of transfers a month) it would cost a couple thousand a month to host it on a serious, business-class, well connected web hosting site. Believe me, no amount of contributions will ever add up to that. The volume that this site does each month places it way out of the realm of "personal web site" and well into "business" categories for pricing. I think panix.com would charge around $2500/month and I don't consider them particularly well connected or primarily in the business of running web hosting farms...
Well you answered that one for me. It was just an idea, but as long as I can get on Subtalk I'm happy. It was a rough four days when I couldn't and what's strange is that I still don;t have a clue as to why.
I have no trouble getting on Subtalk! Maybe it is your ISP?
His school is his ISP.
Does anyone knows how to obtain information on the St Louis Car Co.
on the internet?
The company does not exist as a builder. Another company of that same name is in the private railcar business.
Try typig this into your search engine:
rapid transit car builders destroyed by the New York City Transit Authority
Don't be suprised if you see Pullman show up as well.
question is to the TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB.............. (experts) ......especially the 142s worshipers!!
etc...... after a close study of the illustrated subway car roster on this site and looking thru all of the THUMNAILS
of the R-142s. When the air conditioning fails as they all do !!....... Where can you open up the side windows for
fresh air like you can do with the REDBIRDS !!!...........! WHAT ?? sealed windows ?? like most buildings.!!
SalaamAllah 4
R142er's 0
yea !! i am trying to ask on a stuffy day with the R-142s packed with people and the air conditioning QUITS !!!...
( it breaks down and fails )......AND DONT WORRY IT WILL HAPPEN !!... maybe sooner than later ..!!?
NOBODY HAS AN ANSWER ( except for personal attcaks and flamage ) watch and see the NEGATIVE-response!
As I posted a few minutes ago (people, PLEASE, when you post a question, wait for the answer before posting the question again), the R-142 has windows that can open. And NYCT is known for having VERY reliable air conditioning.
David
I think the R-142s are being equipped with two roof air conditioners, to serve as redundancy if one fails. Also, the design of these A/C units is supposed to make it real easy to lift one out and put another back in.
--Mark
Yep. Stuff that's trickling 'up' from PCs. If your modem goes bad, you swap it out. If an A/C unit on the 142 goes bad, you swap it out, repair the broken one, and swap it back in to replace the next unit that fails. We do that at work with our printers. When one fails, we immediately send out a replacement, and the broken printer goes for repair, then retuns to us. The downside of this is that until recently, no one bothered to record the serial numbers, so now no one knows where the OOW printers are.
-Hank
hope you enjoy the stuffed no air no window to open etc... heat eat and enjoy !!
You must have missed page three, Ministry of Truth , paragragh 3 subsection 19.
The air conditionar will NEVER FAIL.
So there you are.
avid
Another case of PEBKAC.
Problem Exists Between Keyboard and Chair
pebkac..??...like in flamage ..?
No, PEBKAC like your brain and your fingers don't interface. It's pretty obvious.
heypaul doesn't suffer from it.
Neither does anyone else who posts on SubTalk. Many of us tried to to help you be a better poster, but PEBKAC hinders every attempt to help.
The earlier comment (which due to PEBKAC didn't take) mentioned that I'm on the East Coast and you're on the West Coast. That means there are about 3680 miles separating us, which is just dandy with me. I have my streetcars, Philadelphia (and even New York) is a short travel away, and I never worry about you showing up on my doorstop. (Not that you would be welocomed. Other people who frequent SubTalk have been visitors to my area.
when you loose the go to flamage and personal attacks ..... transverse -cab-club-members. ...of cource !!
Hey Sal, learn how to spell and learn how to speak English! Then maybe you might make just a little sense. Nah ... not even then! R142's all the way!
call my name right first !! my name is not sal_.....when will you learn english enough to spell my name right ?
my name is not sal_ mr english !!
Actually, we in the helpdesk industry write it as 'PEBCAK' on our form ID-10-T when we take the calls. I believe it's a standard practice, although it varies from company to company. My current company doesn't use the ID-10-T, we use 'Quality-of-Service' reports. Ick.
-Hank
?????.....!!!!!!
B"H
You mean there's air conditioning on the NYC subway? How come i'm always the last to know?
04/04/2000
Now wait a minute Salaam. Even though you're on the west coast, there may be a easy solution to this. When the 142's are being tested near a station, maybe a SubTalker can call out to the crew asking if the side windows open. Since these cars are reputed to be soundproofed, the crew will have to open the side window to hear what the SubTalker is shouting about. That should reveal the great mystery of those side windows.
It sure beats that cold shower followed by a cold beer to wash down that kosher hot dog imported from Newark Penn Station!!!
!!!!!!!GET MAD!!!!!........not really!
Bill Newkirk
Instead of 'scoring' like an adolescant, why not either back up the arguement with facts, or dispute it. In this case, Salaam (and you) are wrong. The 142 indeed has windows that open. Read a little futher down, and you'll see how the A/C units will be repaired.
-Hank
you see what I mean south ferry..??... I win again ! salaam100....... transverse cab car club........ 0....ZERO..!!!
Man, with you and South Ferry things just go in one ear and out the other. We in the Transverse Car Club have our facts and you, Big Sal, and your pal South Ferry both have your ignorance and your stupidity. Hank asked you to back your unjustified hatred of the R142's with facts or to dispute the argument instead of "scoring like adolescents," which both of you are acting like. But rather back up your ridiculous hatred of the R142's, you say "I win again!" You live 3000 miles away in La-la land and have never been in one of the new cars. Therefore, you don't know how well the A/C works, so once again you come off sounding like a moron. You win nothing!
Sal, I'm gonna tell you the same thing I told South Ferry. Get a plane ticket to New York sometime in the next few months. Ride the R142s for yourself. Shoot a video of them if you want to. If you still don't like them, then you can put them down. But until then, stop bashing the R142's!
can you spell someones name correctly ?? mu name is not sal __!!
Like David and I posted a little ways back, the R142 windows can open. Also to the R142 is designed with a dual HVAC system, so that if one fails you still have one going strong. And if both fail, windows can be opened.
My GOD!
This is exactly what was talked about in the (David Pirmann, A disturbed poster) post, why is there such negativity to the new cars. And if it is because your loosing railfan windows, BOO HOO! Eventually all the subway cars in the system will be like that. Especially with the TA talking about replacing the R38-R42 class cars. Give it up! You can disrespect the "Transverse Cab Car Club" all you want. In the end, a all Transverse Cab Car fleet is where the TA is heading. Accept it, I DID! Be a man about and stop b!tc#ing about it.
A Fresh Air, the only spot your gonna get fresh air is if you on a elevated line, otherwise you can kill that fresh air comment. Besides you live in LA, you don't have to contend with these cars.
R142 Fans even the score: NOW IT'S 2 AND QUICKLY GAINING!
R142 Boi 2K
i agree with u all the way. beside i luv the R 142's more than i luv the red birds. i'm the type to dislike out dated things. by the way, it is common sense to have windows that open. of course the mta would order that. i think that what was told about windows locked shut is a big rumor
boo hoo !! when you are stuck standing room only MAD and ANGRY when you think back in your mind just how right
salaamallah is and how you are just too proud to admit it !!hope you bring an oxygen mask on that day ....you will need it!!
THE TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB will need it !! ....I remember ATLANTA when the AC fails ENJOY IT WHEN IT HAPPENS TO YOU !!!
also i have been on trains& buses when smelly people with thier awful breath and no side window to open !!! and no AC.!
we have this problem on the blue green and sometimes the red line too !! ( here in los angeles ) the AC fails here too !!
you dont like that i told the TRUTH on this also buildings with no windows to open what sick person thought of hat idea ?
....
Listen up and listen up real good. I didn't bring smart a$$ness into this conversation. Further more, your negativity is not needed.
I could care less how much you hate the new R-142 subway cars. It's going to be like that.........Redbird fans and R142 fans.
But I have come to realize that you are the kind of person that must be right. EVEN THOUGH YOU LIVE IN LA and I SEE THE R-142 CARS ON A REGULAR. Whatever!
I'm going to leave it as that because your heading this into a argument and I'm not Pigs, I will tell you about yourself outside of the board.
R142 Boi 2K aka Trevor Logan Junior
As has been stated previously on this thread,
THE R-142"s HAVE WINDOWS THAT OPEN
PAY ATTENTION!!
Peace,
Andee
THANK YOU ANDEE! I hope placing it in huge "red" moving letters opened his dag-on eyes!
Trevor
Don't bet on it. 8->
their (there?) At the post.........
and their off!!!!!!
Peace,
Andee
UH OH...I'M IN BIG TROUBLE NOW
Peace,
Andee
This is going to be quite funny when he responds to this! He needs to open up his eyes, the Redbirds is not the most important thing in the fleet.
Trevor
However, since he suffers from PEBCAK (Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard) no rational or sensible remark will ever take hold.
You could post anything that was patently untrue and he'd reply to it.
What we all ought to do is just ignore him for 30 days or so. Read, but don't reply. Betcha he just might go bother somebody else.
you sound like a PEBCAK to me! and what truth have you ever posted ? also all you seem to do is flam -flim-flam.!!
and what sense did your last post say N-O-T-H-I-N-G.!!...... did you forget dan this is forum for rail transit !!
( just wanted to remind you ) ON TOPIC!...........also you idiot my name is not sal_.!!
falmage!...flamage..!!....and my name is not sal_...for the 6th time.!! still no proff and or photos of how you can open
up side windows on the r142 ........!! NOW!! which one of you attackers have open up ....ANY SIDE WINDOW....
....... on the new junkers the r-142s ?? AND when did you do this and your proff... not taking a axe like ""heypaul"
said that was what you were going to have to do !! again just like I said buildings with no windows you can open up !!
maybe the windows in the r-142s wont even open up in an emergency !!!......my name is not sal_..!!!
VERY few people have been on the R-142s, since they're not in service yet...and of those, very few people post here on SubTalk. I have seen the R-142 test train with my own two eyes (OK, four if you count my glasses). The windows most definitely do open. In fact, the windows on some of the cars WERE open so that wiring could be run from under the car to equipment temporarily set up inside the car for testing purposes.
It's one thing to deliver an informed opinion. It's quite another to blather on, from 3,000 miles away, about something one knows N-O-T-H-I-N-G about, and to keep blathering on even in the face of facts presented by not one, not two, but several posters. Since I don't want to feed this blathering, I hereby resolve never to answer another Salaamallah posting -- I don't need the headache.
David
3000 miles away and called the shots right !! still didnt tell us where the sealed shut windows open ( and proff)....
oh well you said...n-o-t-h-i-n-g.. right ? take excedrin for headaches you cause to yourself !! by the way you answered
the last post but didnt bring the proff with you !! when test wiring was run was the windows INSTALLED as they would
have been when they so called go into test breakdown service or are you going to tell us some more baloney about how you missed this
100% !! and not from 30 feet away yet alone how i called it right from 3000 .!! how about that !
Smelly people with awful breath? Failing A/C? Standing room only? Sounds like riding the Redbirds to me. You've obviously never been on a Redbird or for that matter, the NYC Subway.
Say your goodbyes to Redbirds now. Because my #2 line is finally going to have the most modern rolling stock in the system and it will finally get the respect it deserves! The 2 was denied new cars when the R62/62A's came on the scene. It will not be denied again! They me be painted red, but to me they are the same old smelly graffiti-covered wrecks they were when I rode them as a kid. Don't tell me how lucky I am to have them on my line, or that I'll be sorry when they're gone, because believe me, I won't! I have been patiently waiting for 15 years to see new cars on the 2. Finally, they're on their way. And nobody's going to stop them from coming.
long ...long post ..!! still said nothing ! still have more windows to open on the redbirds and older cars...!
thats if you still can open up a window without an ax on a 142 !....you will be lucky if they last 15 years
hope this answers your flamage !
That's right!
The #2 and #5 lines have been suffering for too long. They deserve the new cars, it's sad that the 7 line will not see them and the 6 line doesn't even deserve them, lol!
Just let Sal think what he wants, he lives 3,000 miles away and really has no stability to what he says, we see the cars in person he don't (And with the windows open, lol).
R142 Boi 2K
true true! the #2 and 5 needs them bad. those redbirds need to go. windows do open, how they got the wiring through for testing(common sense they do open!) besides if the ac(HVAC) STOPS WORKING, of course they care about the passengers health and open the windows. maybe they don't do it in California but they do em' here
Thank You Man, I'm glad to see some people come up with some dag-on common sense to them. R142 are going to rein supreme, and in the words of Sal "I'll eat crow" if they don't. lol!
R142 Boi 2K
go to the subway museum and open up some real SIDE WINDOWS !! now we are making SENSE !.
OH MY GAWD!...HE SPELLED "SENSE" CORRECTLY. Will miracles never cease!
Peace,
Andee
question .............. did you go to the subway museum to see some real side windows ? yes or no ?? ..........??!!............!...........
...
On the real chief, I go to the NYTM on a regular, so kill it! Let it go, your gonna have your opinion and others are going to have theres, oh never mind, talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.
Peace
R142 Boi 2K
the museum car fleet side windows proves my point !! ( i rest my case ! ) ......... mr. brick wall !!
What point, you have yet to prove a point, all you said was the musuem car windows open, oooooooooo! Anyone who is a transit buff knows that. Also I expect you to show the same amount of respect I show you. The next time you decide to get smart with me on this board (mr. brick wall), I will handle you differently and in e-mail. Make this my first and last time warning you.
R142 Boi 2K
i will send you a message i dont want other subtalkers to read on your and my e mail
( thank you )......... none of thier business ..... i saw your handle and thought you were someone else
my sincere apology !.......
I'll let it go, Apology Accepted!
R142 Boi 2K
I hope you will acept my apologies as you have an excellent transit site and i mistook you for someone else !!
i sent you some other info thru you e mail with an apology.. !
as for the other subtalkers the museum fleet was as a comparison to the r-142 only !!
after this threrad this side window issue should die with this post and die off and go 100% away !!
is that allright with the rest of you ?? ...................... LET THIS GO !!!...... ( Thank You )......
Apology Accepted!
R142 Boi 2K
thank you sir !! your website is excellent bus and rail car thumnails etc...
i will try to send you bus and rail of los angeles and san diego as well !!!
my website www.homestead.com/asiaticcommunications/recordingservices.html
besides Los Angeles doesn't have fresh air either!!!! (ROFL)
dont go to HOUSTON TEXAS they have us 100% beat now they are the leader !!
dont go to HOUSTON TEXAS they have us 100% beat now they are the leader !!..
ROTFLMAO
ok rotflmao! soon los angeles will be beat in the worst smog by houstion and atlanta !!! so we are third place,
in air pollution in the united states !! not anything to sneeze at ! we should have kept our original rail system !..
Everyone,
Sal is not going to reason with us with any common sense. For someone that lives 3,000 miles away seem to know everything about the TA's Subway Fleet.
We live here and some of us see the R142s on a regular and some of us have been on the cars, I'm one that has. ALL WINDOWS OPEN, WE KNOW THAT! So if Sal can't get it throw his thick LA Smog filled skull, then let's just leave it alone, we know we are right cuz we see that cars and well, HE DON'T!
R142 Boi 2K
>>>Witness the oceans of tears still being shed over the demolition of the old Penn Station, 35 years after
the fact, in many cases by people who weren't even born at the time. <<<
So, was the old Penn all it was cracked up to be? I know they had compromised the design in the later years by adding intrusive elements of modernization.
The broader question is, do we in fact worship old designs more than we should?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Speaking as one of those tear-shedders who was born a bit less than a decade after the demolition of Penn Station, I can only imagine, with the help of the many photographs, of course, what it must have been like to experience it. Personally, I believe it *must* have been worth saving, considering with what it was replaced. (I recall reading a Pennsylvania Railroad official bragging about how the station under Madison Square Garden would be the "best in the world." And he said it with a straight face.)
The literature mentions that many in the early 60's thought it was "ugly" or "monolithic" or just plain "old." Many will argue the merits of Grand Central over Penn till they die. Yes, it was too big and pink (well, more gray by then) and out-of-place in 1963, but it still provided an excellent venue for what would become, and is even more so now becoming, an essential service to the city.
Believe me, I am not one of those guys who thinks, "Just because it's new, it's bad." I would probably feel much differently had the old Penn Station been replaced by something other than a compressed pit, suffocating under a sports arena. Witness some of the "modern" European train stations. The whole event of Penn Station's destruction is, in fact, a metaphor for what happened to railroading in general after WWII: Limping along, broke, broken and tucked away, where we could all forget about it, only to support it, in all variations of the word, when we absolutely *had* to.
So, it's not that we "worship old designs more than we should." The loss I feel, though never really having had Penn Station to lose, stems not so much from missing the design, but from the realization of the significance of the place. What I mean is, think about how many millions of people passed through the building on the way to the rest of their lives - to home, to war, to friends and family, and to work. Even the most insignificant passer-by could not have forgotten Penn Station! Please pardon me for becoming sentimental, but those memories need space to live.
Can you imagine feeling this way about LaGuardia Airport?
I was at the original Penn Station, or what was left of it, on July 20, 1965, when we rode in from Linden, NJ on our way to the World's Fair. To be honest, I don't remember anything except the announcer's voice booming over the loudspeakers in whatever was being used for a waiting room (was the main waiting room still there by then?).
It's a shame it was torn down. At one time, there was a proposal to demolish the promenade area, convert it to a parking lot, and keep the main waiting room and concourse.
Stylistically, it had the current Penn beat, hands down. The current one is truely a dump, and probbably should be demolished, along with MSG, and replaced with a totally new one - and I don't think tearing up the Post Office (equally historic) is the right thing to do.
But the layout of the old, and current Penn station is just horrible. No amount of face lifts is going to fix the twisted platforms, narrow stairs, low ceilings, etc.
With talk of a new MSG surfacing, growing traffic in Penn, a possible breakup / elimanation of Amtrak, and more, I think it's high time everyone sit down and design a whole new MSG, and Penn station.
Ok - Here's a question - if you design a replacement, with a clean sheet of paper, cost being no object, etc - how would you do it?
My ideas:
a) realign all the tracks and platforms to a)make them all straight, and all the platforms of uniform size.
b) raise the ceiling a bit and conceal all the wrieing, pipes, etc. Just because it's track level doesn't mean it all has to look ugly.
c) Make EVERYTHING, LIRR, NJT, Amtrak, Acela all one level. get rid of stairs / escalators and the bottlenecks they cause.
d) Provide ample access to all tracks. open up as much space as possible on the main level
e) the main level would have HIGH ceilings in it.
f) Track soignage, at both the main level, and track level, would be industrial type flat screens, and centrally controlled.
g) Station announcements would be centrally controlled and inteligable (the NJT ones sure are)
f) A generally better layout. why does the LIRR - the largest customer in Penn, also have a tiny, tiny space to work in?
g) Stylistically, I'd want it to be Art Deco :)
Anyone else got any ideas?
First because you have 2 tracks expanding into 21 and then back to 4 tracks in about 4.3 blocks, you're going to get some crimping at the ends. The only way to remove the curving is to shorten all the platforms which would hurt capasity and train's fitting. Second, who said wires and pipes look bad. Third, the LIRR does get its fair share. It has almost exclusive access to 8 tracks (14-21). NJT exclusevely uses 4 (1-4). Amtrak and NJT share the 9 that are left (5-13) in about a 1/2 ratio so LIRR gets 8, NJT gets about 7 and Amtrak uses about 6. That sounds about fair.
Now you've all heard my Penn Station plan before, but here it is again.
1) Bulldoze MSG and dump it in the Meddowlands (for spite).
2) Bulldoze GCT and dump it in the ocean (for revenge).
3) Completely re-build Penn Station to its 1911 splendor.
4) Return control of Penn Station signaling to the 4 towers (A, C, KN, JO)
Its that simple.
[LIRR gets 8, NJT gets about 7 and Amtrak uses about 6. That sounds about fair.]
Except that it's completely out of proportion to actual use. The general consensus is that Amtrak hogs space.
>>>The general consensus is that Amtrak hogs space.<<<
True, but it's their house.
Peace,
Andee
Yes, Penn Station was amazing. It just had a monumentalism to it that I don't think even Grand Central matched.
When you arrived at Penn (at least on the long distance level) you knew you had arrived in a big City. The soaring heights inside the main waiting room had a little of the effect of a cathedral. The wide and ornate staircases had a real grandeur, like in a fabulous mansion (or maybe Emperor Ming's palace).
I remember my first time seeing Penn Station as a little kid. Smoke from the cook fires on the dining cars drifted to the top of the skylights in the main waiting room giving a sort of diffused light which gave me the impression I was outdoors.
Yes, the degradation in later years was bad, espeically in the entrance hall, but just as the expression goes that you can put perfume on a pig..., the deterioration of Penn was putting mud on a Queen, the royalty still shone through.
Does that answer your question? :-)
I forget who said it, but after MSG was built, he said something like, "Before, one would enter New York like a god, now one just scuttles in like a rat." I wasn't alive when the old Penn station was there, but from the pictures, it would have sucked to see them demolish it.
My only memories of it were just as they started demolition, with all the protective coverings over the interior driveway for the taxis. I don't really recall much of the inside from those early trips, but remember the complete mess the place was for the next 20 years (espeically the LIRR section between 32nd and 33rd streets).
Not only were the financial problems the Pennsy had a killer for the station, but it was in a far less desirable business location (at the time) than Grand Central, which also benefitted from having Walter Cronkite in a CBS studio there while Penn Station was in its decline in the 1950s. Very good PR for the place.
Also the commuters running on the New York Central and New Haven lines were on the whole more affluent at the time than those riding to Long Island or New Jersey, which also helped make Grand Central the more economically attractive of the two main rail terminals to businesses and advertisers. And fortunately, the New York Central had enough back-area space to stick in the Pan Am Building and make some extra cash in the early 1960s without destroying the main concourse. That was impossible to do with the Garden.
[Not only were the financial problems the Pennsy had a killer for the station, but it was in a far less desirable business location (at
the time) than Grand Central, which also benefitted from having Walter Cronkite in a CBS studio there while Penn Station was in its decline in the 1950s. Very good PR for the place.]
Location is an often-overlooked point. From what I've read, the area around Penn Station was the heart of the (now diminished) garment district, which had a definite low-rent atmosphere. It's really only been in the last 20 or so years that the west side has become a more desirable business location.
Why didn't they put the Garden over that 9-10th St. pit?
Seventh Avenue is a far more desirable location than Ninth Avenue.
A perfect answer for this thread -- No direct mass transit access! When the old Garden was built in 1925, it had a Ninth Ave. el stop on the west end, and the Broadway local a block to the south. By 1932, the Eighth Ave. subway was built, and it had an exit right at the front door.
From MSG's stanpoint back in 1962 -- before the celebrity-laden $1,000 courtside seats -- Eighth Ave. between 31st and 33rd streets was a near perfect location to get people to and from the building. The A, AA and E right below, the 1, 2 and 3 at Seventh Ave., PATH a block a way and the LIRR and Pennsylvania Railroad running right underneath the building. And from the neighborhood's point of view, it also was a good deal at the time, because the real estate values in the area did go up with the addition of the Garden and the Penn Plaza towers.
Could the values have gone up if Penn Station had never been torn down -- of course, but not back in the 1960s when most major passenger rail stations were left to rot. If it could have made it into the 1980s, it likely would have experienced a revival like Union Station in Washington.
On the whole, I would rather Penn Station had survived the way it was, but from MSG's standpoint, the move down to 33rd Street has been wildly successful.
I for one remember Old Penn - in all it's faded, late 50's glory. When they tore it down and dumped the rubble in the Jersey Meadows (aka swamp) so they could build the place where Jimmy Hoffa was supposedly dumped, I SWORE I would never get off a train in the basement of a d****d sports palace. And I never have. I get off in Newark and take the Hudson Tubes to 33rd Street. At first we had the K's, change to the Black Cars at Exchange Place. A wonderful trip, especially on the Black Cars - roaring through the tubes in pitch blackness (what's a headlight?), broken only by the glow of the signals and the frequent repeaters. Even 37 years later and with the PA cars, it's still a great ride
What did you think of that "clamshell" ticket counter they stuck in the main waiting room in, IIRC, 1957?
I've always wondered this: What stood at 200 Park Avenue before the PanAm building was built?
Six hotdog vendors,a pretzel guy and a fresh fruit wagon, thats my guess. Oh ya, a baglady sitting on an old milk box, the kind that was used instead of Jack stands.
avid
[Yes, Penn Station was amazing. It just had a monumentalism to it that I don't think even Grand Central matched.
When you arrived at Penn (at least on the long distance level) you knew you had arrived in a big City.]
Yet let us not forget that the old Penn Station had a quite different role than the current one. Its glory days coincided with the glory days of long distance train travel. Commuter traffic, in contrast, was relatively low (many LIRR riders went to Flatbush, Hunterspoint or LIC, while Pennsylvania RR riders mostly went to Exchange Place). As a station mainly serving long-distance travelers, Penn Station almost *had* to have an aura of grandeur.
Today, the new Penn Station is mainly a commuter destination. People who ride the train every day aren't likely to be particularly interested in a grandiose station - keeping in mind that the great majority of them are not railfans. Long distance train travel is way down, and in any event Amtrak (and, by extension, its stations) has a utilitarian aspect unlike the prestigious trains of yesteryear.
Today, the new Penn Station is mainly a commuter destination. People who ride the train every day aren't likely to be particularly interested in a
grandiose station - keeping in mind that the great majority of them are not railfans. Long distance train travel is way down, and in any event Amtrak
(and, by extension, its stations) has a utilitarian aspect unlike the prestigious trains of yesteryear.
If stations were made more grand and awe inspiring as in the past, do you think that that may cause more people to become railfans and maybe make public transportation more attactive?
-- David
[If stations were made more grand and awe inspiring as in the past, do you think that that may cause more people to become railfans and maybe make public transportation more attactive?]
I doubt it. People will use public transportation if it's more convenient and less expensive than the alternatives. The most grandiose station won't help with either factor. I suppose you might get a few more railfans, but that's hardly enough to justify the massive costs of building huge, ornate stations.
[irst because you have 2 tracks expanding into 21 and then back to 4 tracks in about 4.3 blocks, you're going to get some crimping at the ends. The only way to remove the curving is to shorten all the platforms which would hurt capasity and train's fitting. Second, who said wires and pipes look bad. Third, the LIRR does get its fair share. It has almost exclusive access to 8 tracks (14-21). NJT exclusevely uses 4 (1-4). Amtrak and NJT share the 9 that are left (5-13) in about a 1/2 ratio so LIRR gets 8, NJT gets about 7 and Amtrak uses about 6. That sounds about fair.]
OTOH, having lived and worked in the neighborhood of GCT for many years I can say that it never ceased to have a magical effect on me as I walked through it--on the way to the subway!
Penn Station had more than a merely functional role, and I wouldn't understimate the importance of that. After all, wouldn't a modern tower be more efficient than the New York Public Library, with its time consuming steps and silly lions?
I recall reading somewhere that the cost of the monumental steps to Columbia's Low Library amounted to something like 25% of the cost of the building. These buildings are a reminder of a time when we cared about something other than efficiency.
Now that MSG is moving, I think we should take advantage of a rare, probably irreplaceable opportunity to fix a mistake, and rebuild the original, this time as a gateway not just to the remains of Amtrak and the commuter lines but to the region's three airports. Functionally, there's no need for it; financially, there's no justification for it. Overall, I'd say the argument is overwhelmingly in favor of doing it.
If the only way Penn Station could be rebuilt was that GCT had to be torn down, the station crammed into a basement and MSG built on top of it for a period not to be less than 38 years would you do it?
No. Coming from a die-hard Pennsy fan like myself, that's a difficult thing to say, but no, I would not want to destroy Grand Central. The unfortunate loss of the greatest RR station east of the Mississippi, if not the entire North American continent, does not justify the destruction of another significant monument to the golden age of railroading. Penn Station was a tragic loss, but at the same time it was a noble sacrifice, because the realization of that loss provided the catalyst for the historic preservation movement that has saved and reused countless other buildings in this country and, indeed, around the world during the past thirty-five years - including GCT.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What RR station west of the Mississippi could compete with Penn for grandeur?
By the way, I am biased because of where I grew up, but I believe that 30th st station is the nicest on the continent. Grand Central is the only one that can come close. What do those who saw Penn Station think of 30th in comparison?
What RR station west of the Mississippi could compete with Penn for grandeur?
Well, I've heard that Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal is quite a station, and I'm sure that there are other passionate partisans of other stations out there as well. Since I've not visited many out that way I don't know - of the ones I know from experience, New York Penn is the greatest. 30th is also a nice station, especially since its renovation, but it doesn't convey anywhere near the majesty that NYP did, nor even GCT.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, I suppose Union Station in Houston would now qualify as the nation's most cavernous railroad station, since they've attatched the left field entrance to the Astros' new Enron Field to the main entrance of the railroad station. No other train station in the country fits 50,000 people and has a 250-foot high retractable roof. Only problem is, I don't think Amtrak's Sunset Limited even stops there anymore.
Check out http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/special/enron2/498812
How can you call yourself a Pensy fan and not activly strive to spite the New York Central System. They have been laughing at us for 38 years! Are you going to let them get away with that? If we can't have our station then why should they have theirs. I think that the residents North of the city (who BTW think they are better than ppl on Long Island and New Jersey) deserve to go a few decades having arrive in to city every day, in a BASEMENT. I would loose no sleep if a terrorist blew up GCT at 2 AM when nobody was around to get hurt. Besides with GCT out of the way 30th St. will win the nicest station award hands down.
I think that the residents North of the city (who BTW think they are better than ppl on Long Island]
Well, can you blame them? They have Metro North, you have the LIRR. Seems to me someone has to take responsibility for poor choice in railroads . . .
[If the only way Penn Station could be rebuilt was that GCT had to be torn down, the station crammed into a basement and MSG built on top of it for a period not to be less than 38 years would you do it?]
Only if the sandwich included the programmers who put the bugs in Windows 2000 . . . all kidding aside, I can't compare the two, because I while I have childish recollections of Penn Station--the cab ride into the columns struck me as exceedingly cool--that's all they are. But Penn was apparently the grander of the two.
Paul, I absolutely agree - it was an incredibly monumental structure. As another poster commented, it made you feel like you had ARRIVED in a place of IMPORTANCE.
My memories of the station are from the late '50s and '60s, when my mother and I would be taking the Broadway Limited on one of our regular trips to Chicago. We would always arrive at Penn well in advance of the train's departure, normally arriving by taxi from GCT or, if we had come to the city the day before, from our city place on Gramercy Park. I would explore every nook and cranny of the grand waiting room until the train would be called and we would head for our bedroom in the next-to-last car of the train. Then it was off to dinner in the diner (first seating) shortly after passing Trenton (I don't think it stopped, but I may be wrong) and off to bed once we had arrived in Harrisburg. On our return, of course, we were in more of a hurry, so Penn was more of a blur - rushing for a taxi to GCT and the next train north to Poughkeepsie. But I still have fond memories of looking up at that huge high ceiling, far more impressive in my eyes than that of Grand Central, welcoming us back.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Have you made the trip lately? As I've never been there, I have been thinking of visiting Chicago, and making a round trip on the Three Rivers (the present day equivalent of the Broadway Limited). Or maybe one way I'll try the Lake Shore Limited, but I *have* to go through PA at least once by train. I was going to go the whole nine -- get a sleeper and do it in some semblance of style. Try to travel through Horseshoe Curve during daylight, etc. Worth it or no?
BTW, Amtrak's Expansion plan calls for a 3rd daily long distance train running through Pennsylvania "The Manahattan Limited." I wonder why they don't call it the Broadway Limited? Maybe because they don't do the name much justice?
Amtrak had a Broadway Limited, until it got cut back to NY-Pittsburgh and renamed to the Three Rivers. Amtrak made some kind of vague promise when they extended the Three Rivers to Chicago that they would resume using the name Broadway Limited after the train got sleeping cars and a diner. The Three Rivers got the old Heritage sleepers, but still has no diner. I wonder if Amtrak even remembers this.
"BTW, Amtrak's Expansion plan calls for a 3rd daily long distance train running through Pennsylvania 'The Manahattan Limited.'"
And they project an extension of the existing Chicago-Detroit "Twilight Limited" through Canada to Niagara Falls and then via the Empire Route to New York City. To avoid customs delays, the train would make no stops in Canada; that is, no stops from Dearborn, MI to Niagara Falls, NY. The proverbial "sealed train," as it were.
That would make two daily Chicago-New York trains by the southern Northeast Corridor route and two by the northern Empire Service route. And with the Northeast Corridor trains (or Acela, when they get it going eventually) connecting Philly and NY, the Chicago-Philly "Pennsylvanian" is practically another Chicago-NY train.
Now if Amtrak could only bring the "Cardinal" up to daily service (three times a week -- BAH!) so that there would be two daily trains from Chicago to Washington DC, and reinstate Chicago-Florida service via Atlanta (the lack of it is scandalous), I think that we'd almost have ourselves a real railway system. :^)
It will interesting to see if those trains do get added. On one hand, I am excited to see amtrak acting as if they want to grow, not just survive. They say they can reactivate equipment and improve utilization to equip these trains - if they can, I think it would be a real turnaround for them - a can-do attitude at amtrak seems like a change, definitely for the better.
On the other hand, if they fall flat on their faces with the expansions and/acela it will be tough to defend them when they end up not being self-sufficient in 2003.
I sometimes wonder if they should keep the long distance trains they have now for political reasons and throw all their energy into developing mid-distance corridors - that is where amtrak makes the most sense cause that's where trains make the most sense. They should be pushing the Midwest high speed rail thing HARD, for instance.
[I sometimes wonder if they should keep the long distance trains they have now for political reasons and throw all their energy into developing mid-distance corridors - that is where amtrak makes the most sense cause that's where trains make the most sense. They should be pushing the Midwest high speed rail thing HARD, for instance.]
That makes a *lot* of sense. Conventional trains can't compete with the speed of air for long distance travel. Train service should be offered where it offers real utility.
OTOH, the long distance runs have enormous potential for tourism if run on a less frequent schedule. They should be packaged as such, with traditional stock and service--like the Orient Express.
I haven't ridden the train out there in many years. I was in Chicago last December for the first time in 21 years (my wife and I lived there briefly in the late '70s) when my daughter was checking out law schools but didn't even have the time to ride the "L". Horseshoe Curve is wonderful - I went trackside a couple of years ago - but in the old days it was actually more impressive by night, especially heading upgrade past a slow freight belching smoke and with a downgrade train or two passing as well. Memories!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Imagine if the action to preserve Grand Central was taken to preserve the old Penn Station.
The demolition of Penn Station created the preservation movement. Unfortunately, it quickly went to the other extreme: we not only preserve great buildings like Penn Station, but tenements as well.
[The demolition of Penn Station created the preservation movement. Unfortunately, it quickly went to the other extreme: we not only preserve great buildings like Penn Station, but tenements as well.]
Preservation may have its limits even today. NYU is probably going to be able to demolish a building that has some historical significance. Edgar Allen Poe lived in the building, at 85 West Third Street, in 1845-46 and wrote at least some of _The Cask of Amontillado_ there. What's even worse, in my view, is that NYU wants the site for an expansion of its law school ... just what we need, more law school graduates who can't get real jobs and will go around bringing dubious lawsuits (sigh).
(Preservation may have its limits even today. NYU is probably going to be able to demolish a building that has some historical significance).
NYU is (LOL) a non-profit, and in New York City non-profits get to do whatever they want, including building huge non-residential buildings in residential areas. NYC wants all the low income housing and tax-exempt property it can get. Its taxpaying, job creating businesses that are "anti-neighborhood."
[NYU is (LOL) a non-profit, and in New York City non-profits get to do whatever they want, including building huge non-residential buildings in residential areas. NYC wants all the low income housing and tax-exempt property it can get. Its taxpaying, job creating businesses that are "anti-neighborhood."]
In fairness, both NYU and Columbia are huge operations that contribute significantly to the City's economy.
[In fairness, both NYU and Columbia are huge operations that contribute significantly to the City's economy.]
But not as much as they could. Neither institution specializes in engineering and computer science, the fields in demand in today's economy. Having a place like MIT or Caltech would be far better for the city's economy even if it employed fewer people than the existing universities.
[ [In fairness, both NYU and Columbia are huge operations that contribute significantly to the City's economy.]
But not as much as they could. Neither institution specializes in engineering and computer science, the fields in demand in today's economy. Having a place like MIT or Caltech would be far better for the city's economy even if it employed fewer people than the existing universities.]
Columbia's engineering school does lag in quality by comparison to the rest of the university. That seems a shame, but how would you beef it up? That would presumably require a massive infusion of capital to biuld new facilities and steal faculty.
As I understand it, there's been some effort to juice up the local biotech effort.
It seems to me that given the current growing popularity of the country's top schools (and the highway robbery tuitions they're getting away with), it would make sense for the City to help local institutions expand. For example, Columbia College has only 4,000 students, making it the smallest college in the Ivy League. With applications and selectivity at an all time high, it would make sense for the school to expand. NYU is already huge, but could attract better students if it had a real campus. So suppose the City gave Governor's Island to Columbia and endowed a new high tech campus? By moving the business and law school there, they could open up space for undergraduates and the Arts and Sciences on Morningside Heights. Or they could give it to NYU and fund a campus extension for Columbia over the HH Parkway and onto landfill in the river. There are lots of possibilities, which, because neither Columbia nor NYU are ever going to be hard up for students, offer certain results.
[...it would make sense for the City to help local institutions expand. For example, Columbia College has only 4,000 students, making it the smallest college in the Ivy League. With applications and selectivity at an all time high, it would make sense for the school to expand. NYU is already huge, but could attract better students if it had a real campus. So suppose the City gave Governor's Island to Columbia and endowed a new high tech campus? By moving the business and law school there, they could open up space for undergraduates and the Arts and Sciences on Morningside Heights. Or they could give it to NYU and fund a campus extension for Columbia over the HH Parkway and onto landfill in the river.]
Interesting ideas, but I don't know if they'd work too well in practice. It seems as if NYU's campus-in-the-City location is a big part of the reason why it's become so popular.* To a probably somewhat lesser extent, Columbia's compact Morningside Heights campus also might be attractive to many potential students. City-provided facilites on Governor's Island or elsewhere simply might not prove too popular. Possibly something in the line of a research center, only loosely connected with either university, might do better in that location.
* = rumor has it that NYU's applications shot up after the TV show _Felicity_ went on the air. Dunno if that's true, but in any event the show's ratings have slumped big-time this season - said to be attributed in part to the star's (I can't remember her name) ugly, rather Sapphic hairstyle.
[Interesting ideas, but I don't know if they'd work too well in practice. It seems as if NYU's campus-in-the-City location is a big part of the reason why it's become so popular.* To a probably somewhat lesser extent, Columbia's compact Morningside Heights campus also might be attractive to many potential students. City-provided facilites on Governor's Island or elsewhere simply might not prove too popular. Possibly something in the line of a research center, only loosely connected with either university, might do better in that location.
* = rumor has it that NYU's applications shot up after the TV show _Felicity_ went on the air. Dunno if that's true, but in any event the show's ratings have slumped big-time this season - said to be attributed in part to the star's (I can't remember her name) ugly, rather Sapphic hairstyle.]
Sadly enough, I'd say that both schools have benefitted much more from shows that portray the City in a positive light than from any actual change in their academic standing. I have the uncomfortable feeling sometimes that the City's fortunes were destroyed by Johnny Carson and resurrected by Seinfeld. . . .
Anyway, I'm not talking about moving either school *out* of the City. As you say, Manhattan is a terrific draw right now. But I have some contact with prospective students, and know that many are turned off by Columbia's adjacency to Harlem (perceived incorrectly as a risk factor) and the not very idyllic nature of the NYU campus. A river extension of CU would just be part of Manhattan, but a facility on Governor's Island would have to be connected by frequent, free 24-hour high speed ferry service.
One possibility (don't know if I mentioned it, because I can't scroll back) would be to move CU's business and law schools to Governor's Island (what better location than the tip of Manhattan), leaving more room for undergrads on Morningside Heights; unlike undergraduates, professional students apply to schools on the basis of educational reputation rather than locale, and the professional schools needn't be adjacent to the others. (Actually, I think the City's current proposal for Governor's Island includes some graduate student housing).
There are many possibilities, but central to all of them is the notion that an inevestment of a billion or two would pay off in almost no time if it meant that these insistutions could expand, and that that would be true in times good and bad. Sports stadia will never pay for themselves, and a larger convention center, while desireable, may not pay off either. I can't think of any other area that has a guaranteed payoff like this. It's a particularly sensible use of Governor's Island, given that no one will ever use a park there (how to get there?) and that the usual artsy-craftsy downtown revival type proposals will just waste money.
The same free ferry you suggested would work for a park as well.
[The same free ferry you suggested would work for a park as well.]
And would presumably be used for one, because the fort area is landmarked and I think any realistic campus proposal would include some public parkland. But Lower Manhattan is not a particularly residential area, and I doubt that business people would have time to take the ferry during lunch hour. Too bad, really--if the island were more proximate to the many residential areas that lack access to parks, I'd say make a park of the whole thing.
[One possibility (don't know if I mentioned it, because I can't scroll back) would be to move CU's business and law schools to Governor's Island (what better location than the tip of Manhattan), leaving more room for undergrads on Morningside Heights; unlike undergraduates, professional students apply to schools on the basis of educational reputation rather than locale, and the professional schools needn't be adjacent to the others. (Actually, I think the City's current proposal
for Governor's Island includes some graduate student housing).]
Yet remember that one of the reasons why the Coast Guard left Governor's Island was the high cost of providing 24/7 ferry service. While Columbia is presumably an affluent institution, I'm sure they too would find the cost burdensome.
My original point was that New York needs a first-rate engineering/CS oriented university like MIT or Caltech. Even a second-tier engineering school, like those found at Purdue or Texas A&M, would be a welcome addition. I simply don't believe that either Columbia or NYU is capable of changing its orientation sufficiently to add a major engineering or CS school - both institutions are simply too used to churning out lawyers and social workers. For that reason, spending (probably hundreds of) millions on new campuses would be solving yesterday's problems.
[Yet remember that one of the reasons why the Coast Guard left Governor's Island was the high cost of providing 24/7 ferry service. While Columbia is presumably an affluent institution, I'm sure they too would find the cost burdensome.
My original point was that New York needs a first-rate engineering/CS oriented university like MIT or Caltech. Even a second-tier engineering school, like those found at Purdue or Texas A&M, would be a welcome addition. I simply don't believe that either Columbia or NYU is capable of changing its orientation sufficiently to add a major engineering or CS school - both institutions are simply too used to churning out lawyers and social workers. For that reason, spending (probably hundreds of) millions on new campuses would be solving yesterday's problems.]
Fortunately we're talking private operation here. A high speed, 24 hour ferry service would require perhaps 4 full time employees, at a net cost of perhaps $240,000/year, plus the cost of maintaining and fueling the craft. That sort of expense is trivial for an instution of this sort; consider that CU already offers 24 hour/day Morningside Heights shuttle bus service as well as regular buses to Baker Field, Lamont Dougherty, and Nevin Labaratories.
Columbia already has a fair engineering school--according to US news, it's ranked 26 academically. But apart from Caltech it's small potatoes compared to the competition:
School/Research Spending/PhD Candidates
1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology $177.0 208
1 Stanford University $87.5 191
1 University of California–Berkeley $89.1 180
1 California Institute of Technology $47.3 58
6 University of Michigan–Ann Arbor $130.6 169
7 Georgia Institute of Technology $148.5 173
10 Purdue University $93.3 164
18 Texas A&M University $106.6 118
26 Columbia $35.7 48
It seems to me that it's more practical to grow an institution than create one from scratch. Put in some spiffy facilities, endow some chairs, and the professors will come, but an entirely new institution would take years to create, cost much more, and lack name recognition.
As to spending money on campuses, I agree that that would be a foolish investment from a practical perspective if it were just a matter of providing better facilities for existing students. But that's not what I'm referring to. I'm not familiar with the situation at NYU, but without even including engineering Columbia could easily expand by several thousand students, along with the professors and support staff, if it had the space and capital support. That would be a significant addition to the local economy.
In response to the idea that NYC needs a great engineering school, there can be no doubt that it is true. New York Polytechnic, in Brroklyn, recently received an enormous endowment from a former professor who was a business associate to Warren Buffet. I wonder if this might be the time for NY Polytechnic to consider a merger with NYU or Columbia, since it might parlay its new-found wealth into the academic major leagues with the aid of the name and connections one of those institutions might provide. What do you think?
[In response to the idea that NYC needs a great engineering school, there can be no doubt that it is true. New York Polytechnic, in Brroklyn, recently received an enormous endowment from a former professor who was a business associate to Warren Buffet. I wonder if this might be the time for NY Polytechnic to consider a merger with NYU or Columbia, since it might parlay its new-found wealth into the academic major leagues with the aid of the name and connections one of those institutions might provide. What do you think?]
That's an interesting idea. I don't know enough about Brooklyn Polytechnic to say. How much of an endowment?
As I recall from the Times' coverage of last year, it was many hundreds of milions of dollars.
[As I recall from the Times' coverage of last year, it was many hundreds of milions of dollars.]
I have a feeling it would take even more than that.
It could be worse. They could become planners instead and write hugely useless MISes and EISes that consumee 5 years, millions of $$$ and not a few trees while the rest of us sit on our hands waiting for necessary public works projects.
Some of us fed up City Planners now believe there is nothing better to do than become consultants and try to get on the MTA handout gravy train. I guess you'll need about $10,000 in seed money for the pols. We have a better chance of getting a $million dollar consulting contract than seeing real transit improvments in our lifetime. All to do work the MTA could, or should, have done in-house, or incorprated in the construction bid.
[he demolition of Penn Station created the preservation movement. Unfortunately, it quickly went to the other extreme: we not only preserve great buildings like Penn Station, but tenements as well.]
And other mediocrities. But isn't that the story with regulation in general? Egregious violations lead to pesky, meddlesome bureaucracies. If businesses (and other entitites) behaved with more social conscience, there would be less need for red tape.
[So, was the old Penn all it was cracked up to be? I know they had compromised the design in the later years by adding intrusive elements of modernization.
The broader question is, do we in fact worship old designs more than we should?]
From what I have read, the old Penn Station was in rather sorry shape for a number of years before its demise. The Pennsylvania RR's deteriorating financial position mean less $$ for station maintenance, as you'd expect. Some of the things I've seen claimed that the station was at its finest in the 1930's. After the frenzy of activity during World War II, Penn Station went steadily downhill during the postwar years.
I was fourtunate to be able to ride the Culver Shuttle before it closed. Two things that stand out most about the line. The line was single track, using what was once the Southbound Local Track. I would use the 13 Avenue Stop. This station was a typical el station. On the mezzaine there were doors which lead up to stairs going to the platform level. In front of doors which lead up to the abandon side there was a big wooden which read: All Trains On Other Side. It amazed me that some people would tatly ignor it and accually wait for a train. Never mind the fact the if they bothered to look down from the edge of the platform, they would seen no tracks. Some of these people would get mad and storm downstairs to yell at the Railroad Clerk. The Fort Hamilton Parkway was the same, but I never got off at this station. station.
I remember as a teen I used to ride it all the time railfanning because I actually thought it was the only line left in the city to use standards. I remember the motormen were always friendly and kept the cab door open. Then one day I got off a "J" train at Bway Junction with the intention of changing for the IND when I spotted from the corner of my eye:
STANDARDS ON THE "LL"!!!
EUREKA!!!
Well, although I still occasionally used the Culver from the West End to the "F" Train, I basically rode the Canarsie Line to railfan the standards.
I remember as a teen I used to ride it all the time
railfanning because I actually thought it was
the only line left in the city to use standards. I
remember the motormen were always friendly and kept
the cab door open. Then one day I got off a "J"
train at Bway Junction with the intention of
changing for the IND when I spotted from the corner
of my eye:
STANDARDS ON
THE "LL"!!!
EUREKA!!!
Well,
although I still occasionally used the Culver from
the West End to the "F" Train, I basically rode the
Canarsie Line to railfan the standards.
I remember as a teen I used to ride it all the time
railfanning because I actually thought it was
the only line left in the city to use standards. I
remember the motormen were always friendly and kept
the cab door open. Then one day I got off a "J"
train at Bway Junction with the intention of
changing for the IND when I spotted from the corner
of my eye:
STANDARDS
ON
THE "LL"!!!
EUREKA!!!
Well,
although I still occasionally used the Culver from
the West End to the "F" Train, I basically rode the
Canarsie Line to railfan the standards.
looks like you've contracted salaam allah disease.
[ looks like you've contracted salaam allah disease ]
Uh-oh. Is that dangerous?
Do I have to put mosquito netting around my house?
Innoculations are expensive and hard to find, but it is safe to say that preventative medical care is advisable for those who do not want to fall victim to this annoying infliction.
Symtoms: repeated postings and/or use of ALL CAPS and excessive exclamation points even though they are not needed.
Nah, just use a good larvacide and empty out your bird-bath.
Wayne
Not unless that running gag villain Sal Monella shows up.-)
No, just get the killfile injection and no more infection.
It was 3 in the morning after a hard night at work, I was half asleep, but determined to get the red font html to work and kept on getting it wrong!
By the way, those standards on the "LL" and the Culver Shuttle had railfan windows that opened and I got a Kosher hot dog somewhere off the Culver Shuttle.
That's why you should PREVIEW messages.
And remember to TERMINATE your color or font selections so that they don't carry over onto the rest of the page.
On one or two occasions, a train of BMT standards would pull into Lorimer St. with the front storm door being held shut with a 2x6 jammed diagonally across the doorway. Apparently, that storm door wouldn't lock. But if the storm doors on the BMT standards were powered, wouldn't they stay closed anyway? Or was the power feature disabled during rebuilding?
04/10/2000
[On one or two occasions, a train of BMT standards would pull into Lorimer St. with the front storm door being held shut with a 2x6 jammed diagonally across the doorway.]
I've seen that many times, although you may have seen the classic "shoe paddle" doing the honors. Never saw that on the D-Type storm doors.
Bill Newkirk
I presume that practice wouldn't be allowed today.
Funny you should mention that. Broadway Junction is where I saw the BMT standards for the first time, on July 20, 1967. Frankly, I was unimpressed. Let's leave it at that. I will say I feel differently about them now.
Yes, I too have found memories of the Culver Shuttle. I rode it about a week prior to it's demise.
Most of those memories were gathered from my high school days when -- I have to admit -- I cut class on occasion and became familiar with the system. That was also the time I "discovered" the South Brooklyn Railway. I never knew such a thing as a Kings County freight line existed until I did those mid-day excursions on the F train and the Culver El(at that time I was living in Flatbush and the Brighton was my home line).
Doug aka BMTman
This line could've been saved, had anyone gave a damn. Thru service with a restored northbound track might have re-energized this line.
Going back to a thread a couple of months ago, if the MTA had known in the mid-1970s what a disaster the Manhattan Bridge was going to become a few years later, they could have save the Culver, built a couple of flying junctions at either end, and hooked up the West End service to run via Church Ave./Jay Street and the Rutgers tunnel instead of via Fourth Ave.
It would have allowed two Sixth Ave. lines to use Rutgers, and cut the number of lines using the remaining link over the Manny B from 3 to 2. Plus, it would have allowed local and express service to Manhattan between Chruch and Jay without getting the people at Carroll Gardens all worked up.
Oh, and it would have made the ghost of Mayor Hylan smile to see his IND Park Slope line recapture another BMT route to Coney Island.
04/04/2000
"Going back to a thread a couple of months ago, if the MTA had known in the mid-1970s what a disaster the Manhattan Bridge was going to become a few years later, they could have save the Culver, built a couple of flying junctions at either end, and hooked up the West End service to run via Church Ave./Jay Street and the Rutgers tunnel instead of via Fourth Ave."
This is a classic case of the TA shooting itself in the foot with a cannon! Those stations two stations should have been removed, lay down a new track on the center of the structure and paint the structure. Preserve the structure for emergency moves only. Now that the structure is down, buildings are popping up on the ROW. TOO LATE!!
Bill Newkirk
I couldn't agree with you more. The BMTs policy was that any asset they owned they retained. The Chestnut Street connector, Broadway Ferry stub, etc all stood long beyond their period of use. Much of this stuff was lost during the war, as scrap.
Imagine if the Bway ferry stub survived.... the recent bridge rehab would have been a non-event.
Chestnut St. connector?
I'm not sure but wasn't that the flying junction between the Jamaica El and the LIRR Bklyn line? There used to be LIRR trains to Long Is from lower Manhattan over the Williamsburg. (Using the MP41's which were the LIRR's Rapid Transit cars resembling the Low V's)
That's the one.
04/05/2000
{Chestnut St. connector? }
Commonly known as the Chestnut Street Incline. This was the connection between the LIRR's Atlantic Branch and the BRT Broadway-Jamaica line. This is how the BRT ran their "gate cars" to the Rockaways in the summer and the LIRR ran their MP-41's to Chambers St. This connection closed Sept.17,1917, but the structure stood until World war II and was removed for scrap. There is still a small remnant of this connection on the (J) line. Don't know between what stations but there is a single girder in the center of the structure for a track to allow a crossover.
Bill Newkirk
Is a Chestnut Street Incline ROW tour in the Future?
avid
Not without a time machine.
The T.A. would have save a ton of money on overtime alone just by keeping the line open as a connection from Ditmas Avenue to 9 Avenue. A switch at the south of Ditmas Avenue would have allowed work trains from the I.N.D. to go directly to 36 Street Yard from Ditmas Avenue, instead of going around Stillwell Avenue or going into Coney Island Yard.
A friend of mine was a motorman on the Culver Shuttle line in its last days. He told me some interesting anecdotes.
Apparently at night the line ran like a taxi service. The one train would be kept at 9th Avenue and the crew would sleep in the crew room. If a clerk sold any tokens he would call the crew room and the train would come out to pick up the passenger. They would key open one door and take the passenger whereever he wanted to go. They wouldn't bother stopping at intermediate stations or go all the way to McDonald Ave if the passenger wanted to go to 9th Ave.
The line was a favorite of crews working doubles/overtime since the night runs in particular were so easy.
Conrad, although I definitely believe you that your friend told you that I think he was either exaggerating or pulling your leg because I'm sure there were as many people getting on at Ditmas changing from the IND as getting on at the 2 middle stations.
When I first started on the job, you still had motorman and conductors that worked that line. The schedule was only followed on paper only. Crews would reguarly blow trips or just widen out the headway, so that they would reduce the number of trips.
When I was a teen I used to ride it alot to ride the Standards because I thought that the Culver & Franklyn Shuttles were the only lines that still had Standards. (I was wrong, the 14th St Canarsie Line-"LL" still had 'em and when I found out I started riding that line instead!) As a railfan I would be at the railfan window and strike up conversation with the motormen. I remember a few saying it was the best line to work since it had the most layover time. Of course as a teenaged railfan I never understood that. I figured the more time driving the better!!
When I was a teen I used to ride it alot to ride the
Standards because I thought that the Culver &
Franklyn Shuttles were the only lines that still had
Standards. (I was wrong, the 14th St Canarsie
Line-"LL" still had 'em and when I found out I
started riding that line instead!) As a railfan
I would be at the railfan window and strike up
conversation with the motormen. I remember a few
saying it was the best line to work since it had the
most layover time. Of course as a teenaged railfan
I never understood that. I figured the more time
driving the better!!
Perhaps I should have elaborated and said that his stories concerned the midnight service only. He claimed it was not uncommon for each intermediate station to have only 2-3 registrations per overnight shift.
You make a very interesting point, though, I'm not certain what the folks at Ditmas Ave did late at night. Obviously they could get off an F train and head to the shuttle without ever being seen by a token clerk. Hence my friend's stories become suspect, as you said.
Perhaps it was common knowledge to tell the token clerk at Ditmas Ave you wanted a shuttle train, or perhaps the crews did maybe every other trip, as Mr. Cool J said, I don't know. My friend is long since retired, he told me these anecdotes about 1979 or so.
BTW, I recall sometime before they tore the structure down there was some plan for a linear park on the old SBK r-of-w. Guess that never happened. Was it just an excuse to get rid of the el? I do remember seeing the roadbed being used as impromptu bocce courts though!
The shuttle would have been a neat place for a headway recorder. Years ago on the Mattapan line had one at Mattapan on the trolley wire. The operators learned late at night that all they had to do was climb on the roof of the car and trip the recorder with a broom handle. It took a few verified complaints of hour-long waits in Milton for a trolley to rectify the situation!
The broom handle is a great story, but that's all it is. A headway recorder is simply a trolley contactor. The wheel/slider must contact a shoe to complete the circuit and send the signal. What the operators probably did was to either pull up far enough to trip the contactor and then either back up, pulling the pole as the car went under the contactor, or use the front pole on a double ender (like a Type 4 or 5) to trip it.
Unless the operator possesed a metal broom handle, it doesn't work and it's really messy!
The switch brooms have a metal tip at the end of a wooden handle for cleaning out girder rail grooves. I'm certain that is what they used to bridge the gap between the wire and the headway recorder.
The Brits has this web site that has the profile of major rail projects. New York is listed. But how can the site justifiy NY Transit has only four lines?
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/new_york/specs.html
Also, where do they get the city population of 13.2 million from?
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/new_york/specs.html
Peace,
Andee
If it weren't for the MTA logo and designation, I would guess the four lines they're talking about would be the IRT, BMT, IND and PATH. But even if you just went by the major north-south lines in Manhattan, there would still be five lines -- Eighth Ave., Seventh, Ave. Sixth, Ave. Broadway and Lexington Ave.
Maybe they are dumping NY Subway, LIRR, MNRR, and SIRT together. Still the information is misleading as the web page talks about subway projects.
...and for the number of cars on order, it says 200. Aren't there over 1,000 R142's on order?
1,040 IIRC.
One thousand EIGHTY.
1,460 if you count the option orders on both.
Anyone heard anything on these [the option orders]? Perhaps it is too early to call.
Wayne
If you click on "return to main profile," the profile contradicts the specifications and says that the system has "25 interconnected lines"
Maybe they mean IRT, BMT, IND, and PATH?
As for the population being 13.2 million, maybe they took in the entire metropolitan area? Or counted the people and rats?
[As for the population being 13.2 million, maybe they took in the entire metropolitan area? Or counted the people and rats?]
The NY Metro Area's population is about 19 million. And if you counted the "track rabbits," you'd be up to about 100 million.
A few weeks ago, I complained that radio "traffic and transit" reports usually give all kinds of detail about the roads, and then typically throw in a perfuntory "transit on or close to schedule."
Todd Glickman among others explained that the reason for this was that the only source for transit delays would be the TA itself, whereas the status of roads can be seen from the air.
Well, WNYC seems to have altered what they say a little bit in order to reflect this.
Over the past few days, I have been hearing local "Morning Edition" host Mark Hilan give the traffic report, and then say that there are "no reported delays" in transit.
Of couse, I wish that it *were* possible to have extensive, detailed radio transit reports. But, given the inherent difficulties, I am glad to hear WNYC use the more precise language of "no reported delays" in place of the unjustifiedly conclusory "transit on or close to schedule".
I haven't heard this anywhere else yet, but I hope it spreads.
Ferdinand Cesarano
What would happen to an engineer if he/she missed a station stop on a regular run? Would that person be disciplined or written up? Last night I was on the 5:50pm train out of Penn Station with the first stop being Bayside. As the train got nearer to the station, the train just kept going until the engineer realized that he/she had pasted the station. We finally all got off at Douglaston and had to wait 15 mins for a westbound train to bring us back. Could the engineer put the M-1 in reverse?
I often take that train but didn't last night. Was any kind of explanation given?
As usual, no real explanation was given because that would admit to a mistake, which they would never do. The conductor just apologized for the inconvenience and directed us to go to the westbound platform to return to Bayside.
Yes-they can go in reverse. If the overshoot the station by a couple of feet they can back uo so all cars are on the platform.
Could - yes. To an M-1 or M-3 there is no difference in foward or reverse.
Would or Should - absolutely not. It's hard enough to back up a bus or truck safely but 10 or 12 85 foot cars just wouldn't be done. In order for it to be done, the brakeman would need to 'flag' the engineer back from the rear car.
However, from the sound of things, if the engineer realized his mistake and threw the train into emergency, he could be a half mile past the station by the time the train stopped (depending on speed). T'is wiser and safer to go to the next station & hope no one is irate enough to report it.
The engineer slowed the train down midway between the Bayside station and the Cross Island Pkwy. bridge. As you said, the engineer just decided to go to the next station. Yes, there were plenty of irate customers, when are there never on the LIRR. It must have a been a long day for that engineer to have made that mistake. Lucky for all of us it we not raining yesterday evening.
Fortunately it's not a common occurrence although it happens often enough. I was recently riding a LIRR train that normally stops at Woodside. I was facing backwards, chatting with the engineer when I noticed that we had entered the station and the train was still on the post. Realizing that it was too late, I chided the engineer by saying, "Oh ^%%^#&, are we skipping Woodside today?". With that the train went into emergency and we put 4 cars out of the other end of the station. However we did stop and everyone that had to, did get off. More common is where the engineer will forget and make an unscheduled stop. That can be just as annoying when you are tired and want to get home.
I wonder if the frequency of missed stops on the LIRR has any correlation with:
A) the engineer's door being open; and
B) the door being open and the engineer chatting.
Actually, there's probably no need to wonder.
Chuck
Well on this train the door was open, but the engineer was not talking to anyone at the time.
[A) the engineer's door being open; and
B) the door being open and the engineer chatting.]
Next to the lack of non-resident parking at many LIRR stations, that is second on my list of "pet peeves" about the LIRR
Bob
lirrhistory.com
A strong circumstantial case can be made of your argument, however, it is only circumstantial. I spoke to this particular engineer for nearly 2 years and this was the first such mishap. If my talking to the engineer was a detriment to the safe operation of the train, then so should be the use of radio communications, which the engineer must always be listening to.
We've all operated motor vehicles and have spoken to passengers. I'm sure Todd G. can tell us that in the cockpit of jetliners, there is occassional casual conversation. DO captains of ocean liners ban everyone from the bridge of their ships?
If you are looking for a culprit, look to confusing work programs, look to boredum and look to fatigue as the culprit. I'm quite sure based on my own personal observation and my own personal experience, those are far more detrimental to safe operation of a train than an open cab door and/or polite conversation.
Boredom and fatigue is it, and a good argument for ATO. I've missed an occasional exit, and daydreamed past my subway stop, plenty of times. But I will say this -- I've never had a missed stop on the subway. The difference is that the subways (I believe) always stop at every station when in regular service, while the LIRR does not.
I've been on subway trains that have blown by stations, signals and work gangs. Cab door closed, no radio playing and the train operator just dozed off. Boredum and fatigue.... But if there was someone actually talking to the train operator, perhaps there would not have been those mishaps.
The engineer on my train a few weeks back, you should have seen him.
Talking with the cab door open, prop against the storm door, smoking, talking to his friend and not even watching where he was going.
Steve, I can add that FAA regulations require that conversations in the cockpit of commercial aircraft flying below 10,000 feet be limited to those necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft. Jump seaters (i.e. visitors to the cockpit who are there with the permission of the FAA and airline) are reminded to remain silent until the plane is above 10,000 feet (and again when decending below 10,000 feet) unless it is something of a critical nature.
While I have had many jump seat rides (yes, with permission of the FAA and airline) I can't say that I've seen any missed stops :-)
I have an interesting tale about "missed stops" on airlines.
There was one flight, to say "Chicago," for the sake of the story (I forget the actual city). Well, the flight's destination was Midway airport but the pilot decided to land at O'Hare instead. He didn't realize his mistake until he pulled up to the terminal.
:-)
A few years back, Delta had 2 unrelated incidents back to back where pilots actually landed at the wrong airports. Incidents were days apart as i remember it.
That is nothing. I heard 2 days ago a russian pilot mistook a highway for the airport runway. Nearly crashed his tupelov134 and 80 passengers
One of those, IIRC, was a flight scheduled to land at LGA that instead touched down at JFK. At least they were in the same city! The other flight was out in the midwest somewhere and the airports weren't even in the same state.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wouldn't put radio communication in the same category as conversation with a passenger. One is a necessary part of safely operating the train, and one is, well, a diversion.
I wasn't meaning to imply that conversation should be forbidden, or that the door should be closed at all times. There's no "line in the sand" over what consitutes non-distracting chat and an engrossing conversation. Obviously, there's a need for the engineer and crew to communicate -- whether over the radio, "channel 4", or in person. And, the P.R. of being friendly with passengers and small children often goes a long way towards customer satisfaction.
At the same time, I have a real problem with engineers simply chatting it up with off-duty colleagues, or just riding with the door open. It would seem logical that, at least at night, the light coming from the interior of the train would significantly reduce the engineer's ability to see what's happening out the front window. Not to mention the obvious potential for distraction that chatter holds.
I recognize that in many situations there's little the engineer can do in the event of an emergency. I don't know the stopping distance for a 12-car crowded LIRR train going 70MPH, but it's probably beyond the line of sight on most LIRR stretches anyway.
Still, the fact that the engineer frequently has more than a thousand people depending on him to operate the train safely means that he/she should at least give the perception of being concerned about safety. An engineer who misses a station stop -- like a conductor who opens on the wrong side -- simply wasn't paying enough attention to their job, and was putting lives at unneccesary risk.
Chuck
Charles conducters dont open doors on wrong side. If it ever has happened it is clearly the fault of signals. Dont laugh. I remember it happening several years ago and Peter Vallone was screaming about it and Transit said it was a signal failure. As far as trains running stops becuse of engineers it never happens either. Just never happened since that would mean writting an incident report and bad publicity. I remember Conducter Steinbach telling me about such an incident during rush hour on a day he was scheduled for a safety hearing. The train was kept in service albeit with supervision the whole trip
If a subway T/O did the same thing you guys would fry him/her.
Peace,
Andee
Look, Andre, please don't speak for me and I won't grunt for you.
If and when the subject is raised legitimately, I'll respond.
My Dear Mr Kreisler,
This forum is no place for insults.
Peace,
Andee
[If a subway T/O did the same thing you guys would fry him/her.]
I don't know what official policy would be, and I'm certainly not trying to minimize the inconveniece of a skipped stop on the LIRR, but the fact remains that skipping a stop on the subway is indicative of a bigger blunder than would be the case on the LIRR. With the exception of a couple of skip-stop services, a subway train is supposed to stop at every platform. It's pretty clear under these circumstances that a T/O who misses a station has been extremely inattentive to say the least.
Things are different on the LIRR and of course on other commuter lines as well. At least during rush hour, some trains are locals and stop at every station, while others are expresses and skip many of them. It's easier to understand how an engineer can get confused and think he's supposed to skip a particular station. For instance, in the situation that started off this thread, it's possible that the engineer usually operated a train that skipped Bayside, and didn't realize until too late that he was supposed to stop there.
This brings back those fond memories of my flowering youth. I'm on this R/10 "A" express headind to Howard Beach . WE're at Hoyt, and an announcement squawks out of the add on P.A. boses that had been installed. 'This train is taking the Local track , making Express stops ONLY! So off we go and we go through the next three stops, local stops. Then we approach Nostrand Ave. and slow , justas we did at the three previous station , but thats all , the T.O. keeps going.
Then we hear from the P.A. " Hey Man , you gonna stop this thing anywhere?" We proceeded thru Kingston-Throop and finally came to a halt at Utica Ave. I thought is was great, we were making nice time, but so other weary travelars were making creases on there faces.
I guess the lower level of Nostrand just didn't register as an Express stop.
Stuff Happens
avid
Back in '84, I was on a Queensbound 'E' in the middle of the night, intending to get off at Roosevelt. The train went right through Roosevelt without stopping, an act made particularly galling by the fact that we were running express on the LOCAL track. To rub further salt in the wounds, we kept going nonstop on the local track all the way to Continental without the operator realizing his mistake and perhaps atoning by stopping at Elmhurst before too much damage was done.
The operator and conductor were confronted by an angry mob at Continental. We were basically told to take a flying leap and catch a train back to Roosevelt. When I called it in, the customer service rep was similarly apathetic.
One morning, the '7' stopped at Queensboro Plaza, the conductor made the proper announcements, and the DOORS NEVER OPENED. (Of course, there was an 'N' patiently waiting across the platform!) This was almost repeated at Court House Square, if not for people on the platform bellowing at the conductor to open the freakin' doors, idiot!
Several times on the '1/9' and 'J/Z' rush hour skip-stop services, the crew apparently forgot which train is supposed to stop at which stations.
Don't get me started on BUS DRIVERS.
Random drug testing!
avid
During the Rego Park parking garage collapse when the Queens Blvd line was split in two, any and all trains were running on any lines. A 6 car R46 "E" train that had come off the G was running as a shuttle from 71st to Jamaica Ctr. The train skipped 75th, Union Tpk, and Van Wyck Blvd on the local track. The train stopped at the middle of the platform (4 car marker?) at Jamaica Van Wyck. The conductor told him to keep going over the PA, and he proceeded to Sutphin! At Sutphin the conductor instructed him to pull up to the front of the platform. He did, and the doors opened. Many disgruntled passengers that day.
I remember once I was on an F train coming from Coney Island. The train went express from Kings Highway to 18th Avenue. We were on the local track the whole way, and didn't slow down until we were approaching 18th Avenue. It reminded me of how LIRR trains pass stations on the platforming track at full speed, blowing the horn and stuff like that.
I can't forget the time I was on the LIRR to Jamiaica and we were scheuled to stop at Forest Hills. T/O over shot the station by 3 cars. We stayed at the station for a good 15 mins while the conducter kept saying over the P.A. "No good Charile. No good at all"
Metrocard.cjb.net
The first two cars on a train stopping at Forest Hills were closed. The engineer stopped so that the closed cars made the platform. Only people in the second 2 cars could exit.
Another time the first 2 cars had been closed, but were opened due to crowding. At Kew Gardens and Forest Hills the 1st 2 cars overshot.
Once, because of a hurried connection at Jamaica, they decided to Double Stop at Kew Gardens and Forest Hills to save passengers the trouble of going through 4 cars, especially with those impossible to open end doors between pairs. One person at Forest Hills thought he had missed the train and was calling someone to tell them he would be late. He was surprised that he had gotten a second chance to board the train and yelled a "thank you" to the conductor.
Here's the plan:
The system runs on a two track loop, e.g., connect the Lex and the 7th Ave via South Ferry and somewhere in the Bronx. There are only two trains: one on the clockwise loop, one on the counter-clockwise loop. The trains are the length of the loop. There is no front or back of the train because it too is a continuous loop. (There is no operator either.)
There is only one station. It is, you guessed it, the length of the entire system. However there are entrances at every street corner (automated fare collection). The station has no name, but tile mossaics inform passengers of every street along the route.
Here's how it works:
You enter the system at any point along the route. The train is standing with it's doors open. The chime sounds and the doors close. It then moves forward seven blocks (or some other fixed distance) and stops. You can get off seven, 14, 21, etc. blocks further along the loop than you entered.
I haven't worked out how much it would cost to construct this theoretically perfect system. :)
Bill
For the curves on this loop, gap fillers would be installed on the train and extend before the doors open.
What happens when one of the trains goes Bad Order? What happens if (God forbid) somebody gets attacked on the train? What do you do when it's time for maintainence?
This would not happen in a perfect system.
Righteo!! However, if man builds it, it breaks sooner or later. Nobody walking around today is perfect. Nothing lasts unless you take care of it. And every machine mankind has ever made wears out and is either fixed or junked.
However, as a flight of fancy, it's a winner!!
This morning my F and my wife's F about an hour apart both crawled through the tunnel and I saw at least 3 or 4 track workers hugging the wall as the train went through the tunnel, I know there isn't usually work done durng rush hour, so what was broken???
They must have really liked the wall a whole lot.
;-)
Sarcasm:OFF
after the recent daily news article highlighting my accomplishments, i received a phone call from mustapha mond, leader of brave new transit world... he offered me a job as consulting tutor at the department of hatcheries and reeducation... i went down and was given a tour of the facilities...
in the department of hatcheries all new infants had to listen to a tape telling them how lucky they were to be born in the era of the r-142... this was going to be the happiest time on earth... railfan windows were no good... nobody wanted to look out the front window... everybody wanted to watch the message board in the train... red is a bad color... silver is a wonderful color...
i was also shown the facilities of the department of reeducation for older transit buffs... they were put in a darkend room and shown pictures of the r-142's which through the wonders of digital editing actually seemed to be operating... in the background was an audio feed explaining how wonderful rapid transit would be in the year 2008, when the r-142's would be entering regular passenger service...
i really wasn't interested in working for them and was not surprised when a background check of my postings on the subtalk message board proved that i would not be an ideal candidate for the job... in fact i was warned by mustapha mond that if i didn't embrace the new i was in danger of being sent for reeducation myself...
.....yea...dont forget to tell them ""heypaul".... when the air conditioning fails on those old junk 142s that you cannot
open up any side window or even a front window like you could on a R-21-22. !!! side windows on r-10 bmt B R-1-9s !!.!
salaam, you are getting all bent out of shape over
the issue of sealed windows... i have it from up
high in the design and testing department, that each
car will be provided with 4 fire axes to be used to
knock out the car windows in the event of an air
conditioning failure... the fire axes will be hidden
away carefully, so as to avoid unauthorized use by
any mass murderers or troubled postal workers...
yea>!! ....the TRANSVERSE-CAB-CAR-CLUB.....will be happy to hear this !! because that will be the only way
you and I and anyone else will be able to open up any windows to get in some fresh air !!
LOL
Folks--
Was in Newark yesterday and managed to pick up a copy of the new light rail schedule. Some things to note:
a) Schedule is show effective April *17*. I guess the weekend of April 15-16 is a tryout period.
b) BOTH branches will operate at 15 minute intervals, 7 days a week, from 5:30 AM until approximately 11 PM. There is NO difference shown between weekday and weekend schedules. Therefore, trains will run every 7-8 minutes between Exchange Place and Liberty State Park, every 15 minutes between Liberty State Park and West Side Avenue, and every 15 minutes between Liberty State Park and East 34th Street in Bayonne.
c) After approximately 11 PM, trains will run at 20 minute intervals through the entire system. The trains from West Side Avenue will operate as shuttles to Liberty State Park.
d) It appears that trains will lay up overnight at West Side Avenue and at East 34th Street, but not at Exchange Place. (Of course, that's from reading the schedule. It's possible those trains may run light back to Liberty State Park at night, and reverse the trip in the morning.)
Opening day is coming...
Michael
The schedule is now available on-line at:
http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us/hblrail.htm
(If someone would be kind enough to post the "how-to" for creating an actual link, I promise to save it this time.)
Actually, from the schedule, it appears that most trains will lay up at Liberty State Park overnight. At around 11 PM, there are three runs (operating outside the normal 15 or 20 minute headways) that terminate at or near Liberty State Park. Also, at the end of the night, there are two more runs which terminate at Liberty State Park.
From what I was able to guess-timate, it looks like there are 8 trains in service during the main part of the day. At least 5 lay up at Liberty, and it looks like none at Exchange Place. I can't really hazard a guess on what happens to the other 3 until I have a paper copy of the schedule. Staring at my computer screen for too long just doesn't cut it for me. Guess I'm just not e-ready.
Chuck
The HTML code is
(a href="URL")link text(/a)
Replace the parentheses with the corresponding angle brackets.
Also replace URL with the URL of the document you're linking (keep the URL in the double quote marks), and replace the "link text" with the text you want to appear in the link text
Here's an example of this code at work.
The Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Schedule
Check this out. Here's the code for sticking an image in the link.
(a href="URL")(img src="URL_Of_Image")(/a)
Same replacements as above, this time change the URL_Of_Image to the URL of the image. Again, keep the URL in the double quote marks.
Here's an example of this code at work.
Please note that both are case sensitive. Watch those URLs!
Many thanks. I'll see if I can put it to good use soon.
Chuck
You don't use parentheses, this is how the tags REALLY should look:
<a href="URL">link text</a>
<a href="URL"><img src="URL_Of_Image")</a>
There also some more you might want to know:
<font color="name_of_color">text to be colored</font>
<marquee>text to scroll from side to side</marquee>
Is the MTA selling advertisements in stations similar to the way they do it for cars: selling full or half stations of ad space to advertisers? I've noticed this at the 74th Street (7) and 116th Street (A B C). Is this happening anywhere else?
Is the MTA selling advertisements in stations similar to the way they do it for cars: selling full or half stations of ad space to advertisers? I've noticed this at the 74th Street (7) (Pop-Tarts Toaster Muffins) and 116th Street (A B C) (EAB). Is this happening anywhere else?
How was the tunnel between 33rd Street and GC built, cut and cover? Somehow the old RR tunnel didn't get damaged. Do the tracks split and go around it and is this the reason that the station is on 33rd street?
Arti
The express tracks in the vicinity of 33rd St are lower than the local tracks. This enabled the IRT to tunnel beneath the Park Ave trolley tunnel. I think that section was done using traditional boring methods at that time (hand digging and dynamite). No cut and cover there.
--Mark
But not without problems. One of the worst cave-ins during construction of the IRT was at 37th St. and Park Ave., which ended up killing the lines construction foreman and forced August Belmont to buy up nearby damaged property. Anything that bad probably took out the tunnel at that location as well.
Parsons nearly quit as chief engineer after the incident.
--Mark
Thanks, that was my other theory.
Arti
Transit will not add trains.. In order to add trains they have to pay salaries. Transit hates paying hardworking employees when they could use the money on overpaid underworked management
There has not been a crash in over TWO years. It is very hard to make the public and politicions support a multi billion spending plan without any apperent need. Remember the williamsburg crash? How they needed new signals for billions of dollars? Remember the Union Square derailment? How they hired illegial aliens to fix the signals?
Looks like robert johnson (yes, in lowercase letters) is back spreading his conspiracy theories - I wonder where they'll lead this time!
Stay tuned,
subfan
I agree it would appear that robert johnson is back
Peace,
Andee
[Looks like robert johnson (yes, in lowercase letters) is back spreading his conspiracy theories - I wonder where they'll lead this time! ]
Same e-mail birds_are_fun@hotmail.com
Arti
I know - I first thought it was him from the content; then the e-mail address confirmed it.
subfan
R68A-5200 has asked before
"What color is the floor of 5200"
The answer is that 5200 has tan floors
Oh my god!!! That message still exists? Thanks lincoln. Here's a penny and a 5.
The message does not still exist. I remembered it because Trying to learn more about myself was a response to one of my messages
Yea I"ve been looking too, since the original post. Thanks for the answer.
Be prepared to be challenged about a zillion times.pink,blue,maroon,etc,
8->
Peace,
Andee
I dunno if LIRR's Electric Commuter Cars can go to Hunter's point avenue or Long Island City, but on my last Railfan Trip, I noticed in Long Island City and Hunter's point, there are Tracks with Third Rails. Can anyone explain this?
Yes, the LIRR M-1 and M-3 cars CAN go to Hunterspoint and LIC.
The tracks with the third rails at LIC Yard are now on the south side. They were installed in the early 1970's when through trains of M-1's ran from Hunterspoint to Huntington (and were stored mid-day at LIC).
Years ago, it was the north six tracks at LIC which were electrified, as evidenced by a 1930's photo in "Electric Heritage of the LIRR". There were also station sheds between each pair of tracks (1-2, 3-4, 5-6) in the photo. Capitoning for that particular photo mentioned that the third rail was removed from LIC Yard right after the DD-1's were retired in 1951. When the north side of LIC Yard was electrified, there was some pretty substantial fencing preventing people from entering the yard along the north side. As it was a fairly busy terminal in those days, passengers used the station building at the west end to gain access to the platforms.
As I recall, a M-1 or M-3 does arrive at LIC at about 3:45 pm every day. I don't know if any others arrive during the day.
That one is a deadhead getting ready for the 5 something PM train to Ronkonkoma from Hunterspoint. The high platform at LIC is not near the track with 3rd rail, and therefore the train cannot pick up passengers there.
This is true. The trainset sits on the southern most part of the yard.
Given the astounding amount of service to LIC, why doesn't the LIRR just leave one electric platform (2 tracks), and run LIC -> Hunterspoint Ave? Seems to be a better idea than rebuilding the yard - there's just not much service to there - I don't know WHY LIC still exists myself...
Train storage.
Exactly. In the morning, the yard is full of bi-levels.
So does that mean the 5:29 Train to Ronkonkoma is a M-3 or a DE30?
Can't tell. I'm on my way home at that time.
TUNE TO NY 1 FOR DETAILS
We ain't all got cable.
-Hank
Summary of the plan:
o NYC gets an extra $300 million to study a full length Second Avenue subway, instead of studying just part of it.
o Any construction would occur in the next capital plan, when the MTA is very deep in debt.
o NYC subway fares will back bonds for commuter rail projects.
It is an OUTRAGE!
[Summary of the plan:
o NYC gets an extra $300 million to study a full length Second Avenue subway, instead of studying just part of it.]
So it costs $300 million more to **study** the full line rather than the stubway? Am I reading a Kafka novel???
No, because in a Kafka novel the kiosk/agent booth would be built and staffed but you would be told to wait for some magical moment before entering. Then as you approached your final breath, the gates would be closed and the booth shut.
($300 million for study)
Let's use the 1968 MTA study, then hire the contractor who was building the LA subway for $200 million per mile. Even assuming moderately higher costs, we should be able to get the section to 125th Street built for a $billion.
[Let's use the 1968 MTA study, then hire the contractor who was building the LA subway for $200 million per mile. Even assuming moderately higher costs, we should be able to get the section to 125th Street built for a $billion.]
It's a nice argument--you should really write it up for the Op-Ed Page.
Hire the Willie B contractor. He'ld get it done 6 years early.
[Hire the Willie B contractor. He'ld get it done 6 years early.]
Soon as he's done with his school system boiler contract
The only good news is that the Daily News editorial page called bullshit bullshit. I have written to them several times (with same boring number some of you have seen). There is no way to be sure my warning that bullshit was coming had anything to do with it, but I am satisfied nonetheless.
NY Times and Silver -- Second Avenue Subway Approved. Pataki and the MTA -- just a study.
[NY Times and Silver -- Second Avenue Subway Approved. Pataki and the MTA -- just a study.]
I can't for the life of me figure out why they're being so wish-washy on this. Perhaps they're counting on the crowds from the LIRR extension to produce a customer revolt five years from now.
I know, sorry about that but NY1 does not have a link up. When they do I will provide a hyperlink
Peace,
Andee
They used to have the sound portion of their broadcast streaming via Real Audio at their website ny1.com, but the last time I tried it, the link was inactive.
Surprise, it is on their web site in on-demand video. Just go to http://www.ny1.com/VideoAudio/index.html then go to choose first selection and pick `transit', and then click play newscast. The clip's about 90 seconds long in Real Audio format.
AS PROMISED,
HERE IT IS
Peace,
Andee
[We ain't all got cable. ]
It's on the web
http://www.ny1.com
Arti
I post that transit hasnt had any crashes in 2 years and all of a sudden transit gets money. Coincidence?
OK !!!! here we go.... I might as well post what the transverse cab car club hates the most.... here we go again !!
THE RAILFAN WINDOW ...(get mad ).. now side windows cant be opened any more but dont worry...
I will be there in NEW YORK to railfan vidieotape the 2 5 4 6 7 and hopefully the rockways daylight !!
ok fellow subtalkers ( get mad ) and here comes the flamage !!!..... lets go ..! railfan windows.... right on !!!
just think the motorman will probably be
the ONLY person on-board getting a cooldown
from a hot humid summer day.. why?? cuz
he has a whole entire railfan window to
roll sideways and open that precious door..
while the rest are stuck packed in tight
and jabbed with sealed-up windows sweating
like mere pigs...
so how much R ur Railfan videos? what lines did u tape?
Does anyone know how crowded a 7
train going toward Flushing is at 8AM on a weekday while crossing the East
River? Or any other examples of commuting in the reverse peak direction?
Most of those going outbound in the AM are probably heading for buses to the suburbs. Most of the city's employment outside Manhattan is near Manhattan -- ie. Long Island City, the Hub, Downtown Brooklyn. The two exceptions are the two airports, which are not hooked up to transit.
Most of those exiting and Prospect Park station in the morning are kids heading for Bishop Ford H.S.
How serene is a IRT 1 or 9
wallowing north into westchester..
now THAT's a thought!~
[How serene is a IRT 1 or 9
wallowing north into westchester..
now THAT's a thought!~]
I took that line north to school for years. Always plenty of seats, and in those days only half the trains went past 137th St. They were only eight cars long, too.
Morning reverse peak express trains on Queens Blvd line have only a few empty seats, sometimes standing room only. Local trains can either be crowded or completely empty, due to 20 minute waits for a G, then immediately behind is the R.
Afternoon reverse peak on Queens Blvd line are half empty (only in cars at ends of train, center cars have standing room only).
Afternoon reverse peak on flushing line are almost completely empty. (I have never seen reverse morning rush on 7, but I would imagine it is the same).
Afternoon reverse rush on Sea Beach, Bay Ridge, and Culver line is pretty empty as well.
All this talk of empty trains makes me think of the area Donald Trump wants to build on at the west side . I think it refered to as the westside yards . Maybe MTA needs a day storage area to await the evening rush?
Lets kick this dog arounr for a while.
Is it big enough, how to reach it?
who or what lines use it ?
What reverse peak service gets Cut?
Yad yad yad yad....
avid
There's already a West Side Yard right across the street from the Javits Center that serves the LIRR.
Do you mean the area next to the Joe Dimaggio Highway, near where ABC has a studio?
--Mark
yes
avid
I reverse commute from my house in Woodside to Queens College. I take the 7 to Main Street for the Q25/34. Sometimes the crowds compare to peak direction travel, sometimes it isn't.
I sometimes take the 7 across town in the am to get off at Grand Central. I've never seen more than a handful of people stay on the train to Queens
Attention all Broad Street Subway riders:
Starting yesterday or today, Track 4 (generally northbound local) was closed
between the crossover south of Olney Terminal to the crossover north of Olney
Terminal for trackwork, hence all northbound trains stopping at Olney will come
on track 3 (the express track).
are there any museum train runs planned there of the 1928 broad street subway cars??
maybe they have thier own webpage ??
DON'T COUNT ON IT
If there's one transit agency you can bet will never run a fantrip, museum run, open abandoned facilities or otherwise open or use outdated property, than it's Some Expensive, Putrid Transit System, good ol' SEPTA(or, as I prefer, SEPTIC).
For all the R-68 bashers, time to eat some real humble pie. For March, Concourse shop will set an All-time record MDBF for a Southern Division maintenance Shop. The MDBF when finalized will be over 280,000 miles. The 12 month moving MDBF will be in excess of 125,000 miles. Remember, Concourse Shop has all R-68s.
NOTE: The above statement is made with due pride and with the full knowledge that Mr. Bauman will post his monthly objection to MDBF calculations.
Congratulations, keep up the good work
Question: does the increase in maintenance efficiency mean that fewer spares and required, and more trains can be put on the road in places where lack of track capacity is not an issue?
The reality of the situation is the D line uses 30 trains or 240 cars. Concourse Shop has a fleet of 276 cars leaving a spare factor of 36 cars. With 8 out of service daily for inspection and 4 out of service for projects and scheduled maintenance, that leaces just 6 4-car units as actual spares (provided none are out of service due to mechanical failure. That keeps us comfortable but it's really not a great cushion. The trick is to maitain that cushion daily and that's done through lots of work. Part of the increase in the MDBF is directly related to the extra care and preventive maintenance done to spare trains & cars when not needed for service.
Do they normally rotate the units that are kept as spares, or are the same spares used every day until "something" happens?
Spares become spares most times by a matter of chance unless I request a specific car remain in the yard for a specific reason.
Since Concourse R68 cars are 4-car units, are they like R62s that have spare parts available after marrying into 5-car units?
If so, do spare parts also contribute to high MBDF of Concourse R68s?
Chaohwa
The R-44s, R-46s and R-68As are also linked into 4 car units. I'd like to think that our aggressive maintenance programs have something to do with the fleet success.
I don't think it's so much a matter of extra or spare parts as it is a matter of unnecessary parts. The biggest single factor in the increased reliability must be the elimination of the electric and mechanical coupler. This was replaced by hard-wire and a link bar.
Is that all that connects them, a link bar and a wire? No air pipe?
Yes, in fact an air pipe was added. There are the standard brake pipe and straight air connections. In addition, a Main Reservir pipe has been added. This will help to maintain a more constant main reservoir supply despite the loss of a compressor.
The biggest single factor in the increased reliability must be the elimination of the electric and mechanical coupler.
Really? Suppose ALL the previous failures were due to coupler failures. There used to be 7 couplers per train, now there is only 1. One would expect that the MDBF would instantaneously increase 7-fold with the intorduction of link bars.
This has not ocurred. Your latest figures indicate that the increase is only 4-fold (from 50K to 200K). Also this increase has been gradual over a 6 year period.
This behavior would suggest that the introduction of the link bars has been much less important factor for increased MDBF than has been postulated.
Your 7-1 ratio is not a valid probability calculation. If
all failures that get lumped into MDBF were coupler-related, then
it would be true (approximately, since you neglect the minor
effect of a failure at the head-end coupler which will can
cause loss of motorman's indication).
MDBF is a silly number anyway, like on-time performance. The
real numbers to watch (which are not, AFAIK, calculated by CED)
are Mean Distance Between Critical Failure, i.e. when a failure
causes a condition that non-trivially delays service, and
availability, which is a complicated metric because it combines
MDBF, MTTR and PM scheduling.
When electric portion failures occur, they are generally critical
failures that result in the train being taken out of service and
passengers discharged. OTOH, permanent linked sets will decrease
availability. In order to properly calculate the effects, you'd
have to know how many failures, before linking, were coupler-related
as a percentage of total failures, and then extrapolate based on
the current number of failures how many additional failures we would
have with the extra couplers.
I was trying to ascertain the importance of the link bars on the overall MDBF metric. Clearly, its importance is proportional to the relative incidence of coupler failures. The extreme example that I gave shows the maximum possible improvement for link bars.
Any deviation from that figure can be used to estimate the relative frequency of coupler failures. Suppose only half the failures were actually coupler failures, then the improvement in MDBF would be only 350%. In fact the immediate improvement in MDBF after the introduction of link bars was less than 25%. This would suggest that couplers accounted for only 3.6% of all failures.
MDBF is a silly number anyway, like on-time performance.
Management prefers to use a single silly metric - especially one that is easy to manipulate. It can be used to hide their failures. The beauty of these statistics is that they can redefine them, to demonstrate any degree of management proficiency. The miscalculation of MDBF with the link bar introduction and changing the definition for late trains illustrate this point.
I believe that availability is a better number to use, if a single metric must be used to show the physical state of the operating fleet. My reason is that it shows a broader picture of the entire maintenance process. Availability can also be manipulated so the public won't be protected from management over-achievers.
In order to properly calculate the effects, you'd have to know how many failures, before linking, were coupler-related as a percentage of total failures, and then extrapolate based on the current number of failures how many additional failures we would have with the extra couplers.
I think one can do some "reverse engineering" of the type illustrated above to ascertain the numbers you require. This has the advantage of not having to accept the NYCT's data at face value:-)
You make an interesting point. A train going out of service due to loss of indication caused by a dead bulb is a very simple 30 second repair procedure even when including time train traveling light. A derailment however means the train will take several days at least till it can be returned to service. Also train dude mentioned it takes TWO days just to send the train to yards and return it to service. It would be much more realistic to have percentage of time trains are available for service than amount of miles. The present way a train could sit 3 years awaiting repairs and no one would even care. A realignment of procedures would further help in decrease of unnneeded subway cars. Thanks again for idea
Somehow I've gotten the impression that a surplus of rolling stock is not a mojor problem at this time.
I don't want to get into a debate over that which can not be proven but I said THE BIGGEST SINGLE FACTOR. Nowhere did I say it was the only factor. Clearly by elimiating the couplers, we eliminated far more points of possible failure than just the coupler. We've eliminated bake valves and master controllers. We've eliminated MDCs and key switches. We've eliminated coupler control boxes, electric portion relays, zone relays and cutting valves. By eliminating those components we've also made it possible to modify the was cars are maintained - leading to increased efficiency and productivity. What you need to do is realize that this is not a finished product but mearly a work in progress.
...We've eliminated bake valves and master controllers. We've eliminated MDCs and key switches. We've eliminated coupler control boxes, electric portion relays, zone relays and cutting valves....
I've always thought that the link bars were far more effective for providing spare parts than for increasing MDBF.
30 trains means 60 units. with 6 units spare you have 10 percent spare. Do trains break down so much that you have to keep maintaining them? And do they actually take so much time to fix?
Getting back to a long ago discussion we had about conductor steinbach you said he was only one person and there are 5000 employes in car division True but that is like saying Dave Gunn didnt really get rid of graffitti. It was the car cleaners that did it. True Gunn probably never cleaned a car in his life unless it was for show publicity and conducter steinbach never fixed a subway car but they both set into place a new system with tremendous improvement. Please email me since I am going away for a few days and dont know when I will return
"30 trains means 60 units. with 6 units spare you have 10 percent spare. Do trains break down so much that you have to keep maintaining them? And do they actually take so much time to fix?"
No - you maintain them so they don't break down. What is so much time to fix? How long does it take to repair an automobile? How long does it take to repair a jet? The answer is that it takes time to properly repair a subway car and the time varies depending on the type of repair necessary. Here's a question for you. How long does it take to replace a traction motor?
How long does it take to
replace a traction motor?
Wouldn't you simply swap the truck with a spare, and then send the
blown truck to CI or 207 for overhaul?
Yes it is easier to swap the truck - which is exactly the point I was trying to make. Now, how long does it take to get a truck swapped?
I asked my Dad who worked at 207th Street Shoppe and he said it was a good day's work to get the cars up on the crane and the truck or trucks undone and onto the other car. He couldn't give me hours/minutes but I'd guess it would take anywhere from six hours (for a crack team) and up to do this job.
He gave R10s as an example; he worked on those most frequently.
Wayne
Keeping in mind that the original question was something like "How long does it take to repair a train?". Here is the answer to my hypothetical question. From the time the traction motor is found defective:
1 day to transfer the car to Coney Island
1 day in Coney Island yard to be loaded onto drop-table conga line
One day to change the truck and dress the car.
One day to arrange for the transfer back to Concourse Shop.
One day for the transfer.
One day to bring the car in & make sure everything is tight & right before relaeasing it to service.
That's 6 days if everything goes as scheduled. Other repairs not requiring work in the overhaul shop are dependent on the availability of parts and adequate labor, not to mention space in the shop. I hope that explains why a 10% spare factor is just adequate.
If the defective car were part of a linked set would not the entire 4 car section have to be sent to Coney Island thereby losing 3 otherwise OK cars for the duration?
And in the case of lesser repairs on linked sets: Having to bring in a 4 or 5 car section with only one car in need of work would IMHO, call for some creative use of space in the shop,wouldn't it?
Exactly correct. Therefore when a car is brought in for 'running repairs' we try to schedule other preventive maintenance operations.
Especially in the case of Concourse Shop where we have three 8-car tracks, scheduling of maintenance must be done with lots of planning to maximize the limited space we have.
Other than CI & 207, what other barns currently have the ability
to change out a truck?
Pelham Diesel.
This may come as a suprise but many shops have the ability to change trucks. Concourse Shop has two 50-Ton "Rail Lift" screw jacks that can easily lift one end of a subway car. We frequently de-truck cars to make repairs on the trucks. Truck changes are not done because we don't have spare trucks and transporting the car to the overhaul shop is cheaper than transporting the trucks to the barns. Jamaica Shop has 4 similar jacks and other shops are currently purchasing them.
For those of us who don't have to deal with such things ourselves, it would seem that transporting a truck (which is a lot smaller) would be cheaper than transporting a whole car (which is a lot bigger).
Why is it cheaper to transport the whole car?
Man-hours, I suppose. You have to pay people to load the trucks on a flatbed or flatcar, then pay someone to drive it to and from Concourse. Sending the train requires 2 people to run the train from Concourse to CIY, then they'll probably be bringing back a train that was sent back previously.
-Hank
It depends on how one calculates the cost for a repair. The 6 day repair requires 3 days of car travel or arranging car travel. If the repair were done at the Concourse, one could expect a 3 day turnaround.
If you were to factor in the cost of an increased spare factor - due in part to a bloated MTTR, then loading trucks on flatcars is relatively inexpensive.
Maybe someone should design a small, light-weight frame with a coupler at one end to which one could swiftly and easily attach a pair of trucks. Then couple the fram to the back end of a train thats going there anyone and tow the trucks through the system.
If Amtrak can transport freight behind its passenger trains, why not the TA.
Oops. Pardon the sloppy post. Fram=frame. Anyone=anyway.
Not so coincidentally, we've talked about just such an arrangement. There are a number of safety issues that would need to be surmounted but the real resistance, I fear would come from the TWU. However, if you look at the idea in the light of day, there are some logistical problems with it. They are:
1) The truck(s) could not be dragged behind road trains and would need to be pulled by light trains. Therefore, there would be no savings in moving the truck to the trains VS trains to the trucks.
2) There are only a certain number of spare trucks available and the logistics of having & storing trucks at every maintenance facility would be more costly than the current JIT plan for production of trucks currently used by NYCT.
There are only a certain number of spare trucks available and the logistics of having & storing trucks at every maintenance facility would be more costly than the current JIT plan for production of trucks currently used by NYCT.
Would having & storing trucks at every maintenance facility improve fleet availability?
Yeah, that's what I thought....I remember Jamaica got a bunch
of those jacks. Before this discussion of changing trucks gets
much further, let's remind our viewers that with proper
preventive maintenance such as blowing out dirt from the motors
and changing the brushes before they resemble carbon paper, and with
periodic motor overhaul which gives the armatures a dip and bake,
traction motors rarely blow. If a train is running around with
one car with a traction fault, BFD....still OK for service and
you'll send it to the overhaul shop when it is convenient. Doesn't
make sense to have every inspection shed have major repair facilities.
I'll bet the majority of your road failures that come back in to
Concourse are doors, HVAC and lights?
Absolutely correct on both counts. Doors are the largest single cause of failure for two reasons. First because of their numbers. There are 16 doors & operators on an R-68 while only 2 HVAC units, one brake unit, 4 traction motors, one propulsion package etc. Second is that it's the one operating part of the car that customers actually get their hands (feet, shoulders and asses) on, routinely. As such, they take an inordinate beatng that the other components do not. It's a tribute to Vapor, Wabco & Westcode that they perform as well as they do.
What exactly is a "propulsion package." The controls? Until I read this post I had thought it was a traction motor.
What exactly is a "propulsion package."?
It is another term for a switch group, aka group switch.
It is the set of _stuff_ under the car (contactors, relays,
solid state logic, etc.) that applies power to the motors,
sets up dynamic braking connections, and regulates acceleration
and braking by changing the grid resistor connections. Typically
it is all mounted in a single large box.
It does not include the master controllers up in the cabs, couplers,
train line wiring, grids, traction motors, field shunts, etc.
Mystery solved. Thanks. I'll save my question about field shunts for another day.
30 trains means 60 units. with 6 units spare you have 10 percent spare
There are 36 spare cars joined in 4 car units. Shouldn't that make 9 spare units for a 15% spares?
As usual, nice job!!
--Mark
That's great news. Keep it up!
Every fall the time reverts to standard time and that leads to my question. Some train runs are over 1 hour in lnegth. A train may leave 179 at 0103(approx. time) at 0200 the time reverts to 0100. At 0103 Standard time there would be a second 0103 from 179 or would they hold it for 1 minute to avoid two trains with the same call letters.
If a train has trouble and radios control how would control know if it left at daylight time or standard time unless the crew states the station where they are (or just passed or will approach)
I have two hypotheses:
1. Disambiguation by adding "Daylight" or "Standard" as a suffix to the call sign.
2. The first station that the train leaves after the change over from daylight to standard time and the time it left.
Every train crew has a unique identifying "run number." No two crews on the same line will have the same run number. Plus, a supplemental schedule will have been issued to "patch" the time change.
This way, if crew 106 has the 1:03 EDT train and crew 109 has the 1:03 EST train (as an example), a call from "F-line crew 106 train operator" will be totally unambiguous.
I note NY TA crews have distinct numbers but what about the trains?
In London, for example, every train has a 'Run Number' when it departs a yard for the first time in the morning and retains that number throughout the day until its last return to a yard, even though it might enter and leave a yard during the mid-day hours when not in traffic.
In the movie 'Taking of Pelham 1-2-3', Pelham 1-2-3 was given as the 'train' [identification] Number.
What is the REAL NYCTA practice please? And are these numbers shown in the employee TTs for example.
What exactly is(was) the commuter tax? What did it tax?
I just saw on WPIX channel 11 that NJ and CT commuters no longer have to pay it to get to NY.
The commuter tax had nothing at all to do with transit or transit fares. It was a NYC income tax that was withheld from the paychecks of people working in NYC but whose residence was outside the 5 Boroughs. It applied not only to NJ & Connecticut residents but those who lived in NY State (but outside NYC) as well. It was recently repealed by the State legislature much to the chagrin of Mayor Rudy.
To clarify, the State Legislature (a body only slighly smarter than Salaam W. Allah) repealed it only for New York residents, people living out of state still had to pay it. Now, the courts turned that down and the commuter tax is totally gone.
The commuter tax was partial compensation for the fact that the metro areas poor are bottled up in NYC, where NYC residents had to pay for them. I say partial because it was nowhere near enough to offset the added burden, leading to the higher taxes that NYC residents and businesses pay, and the inferior services.
I think it is only fair that the state now fund the entire non-federal share of welfare and Medicaid expenditures, as nearly all other states do.
Not to mention compensating us for letting all those foreigners (i.e. citizens of Connecticut and other strange places) into OUR city.
Well, not totally gone. For city workers such as cops and firemen who live out of the city there is still the TOTALLY ILLEGAL 1127 tax which means we have to pay the same city taxes as if we were residents. This includes ALL income, even income earned ouside the city such as second jobs or bank interest. (I live in Nassau and had to include my bank interest from a local Nassau bank and even a triple I won at a Vermont dog track on my 1127 tax form) They say we signed for it when we were hired but: There was no choice, either you sign it or not get hired- and...They never explained what we were signing or gave us enough time to read the legalese fine print.
[Well, not totally gone. For city workers such as cops and firemen who live out of the city there is still the TOTALLY ILLEGAL 1127 tax which means we have to pay the same city taxes as if we were residents. This includes ALL income, even income earned ouside the city such as second jobs or bank interest. They say we signed for it
when we were hired but:
1.There was no choice, either you sign it or not get hired- and...
2.They never explained what we were signing or gave us enough time to read the legalese fine print.]
It could be worse - the city could impose residency requirements for all employees, cops and firefighters included (unless there's a state law prohibiting it, which I don't believe there is).
Baltimore tried that one (no increased tax, but you gotta live there) too, but the unions got it fixed so that unless you wanna be a boss (Department Head for the civ's, Captain and above for the cops and firefighters) you can live anywhere else. My brother-in-law works for the City Comptroller's office (writes bond-issue specs and is also system adminstrator (Novell) for his office) and lives in Harford County.
In the NYPD the entry civil service test and the promotional tests they now give extra points for city residency. Since I'm not a city resident I was totally against it at first but then I started thinking, considering how much better the suburban schools are compared to the NYC schools its just an equalizing handicap!!!!!!
Is it worth it to rent a dummy apt and claim residency? Or use friends apt?
I'm sure its done alot with the entry level exam since they are not on the job yet and have nothing to lose but probably done very little on promotional exams. The department will definitely investigate anyone moving from the suburbs to the city before a promotional exam to make sure its a real move and not too many guys will risk their jobs for the few points. Also you know people will definitely drop dimes when they realize other guys are getting extra points for residency and therefore much better list numbers and the other guys live down the block from them in Suffolk or Nassau!! Promotions=more money.
would any one talk? I take a test I would just tell my co workers i took it and maybe what I thought of it. How would anyone know what address I put down If called first it just means I did better. Also from what I saw from my days in transit most just want the day off with pay which is why train operator is open competitive now
It only takes one. Would you take a promotional exam which would result in you either getting the promotion or losing your job entirely? That's really playing double or nothing.
"Dimes"? Are pay phones cheaper out in the sticks all of a sudden? Or are you giving away your age?
A founding pillor of the United states is No taxation without representation. Politicions are taxing but not giving representation. It sounds to me like you might have a very strong constitionial challange. Why limit this just to new york city income tax why not port authority with its tolls tax for non citizens? Get the idea?
Only citizens have the franchise in a democracy. Foreignors pay taxes in exchange for us tolerating their continued presence.
(It could be worse - the city could impose residency requirements for all employees, cops and firefighters included unless there's a state law prohibiting it, which I don't believe there is).
Yes there is a state law. It says that other parts of the state can exclude residents of New York City from taking public jobs, but New York City cannot impose a residency requirement. Yes, its true. It is just one more ripoff of New York City, along with the STAR program, the school aid formula, the Medicaid local share formula, etc. etc.
As to the purpose of the extra points for residency in the Police Department, I'm not sure I agree. It does make sense to have a police force that mirrors the makeup of the population that it polices, and the environment that people live in. But by that measure, however, a cop who grows up in East New York (or Newark) should be getting the extra points, even if he or she moves out to Dix Hills after getting the job. The points should not go to a cop who grows up in Dix Hills (or rural Wisconsin) but moves to the south shore of Staten Island after getting the job.
As long as their making non-residents pay full NYC income tax in the form of the 1127 tax, they shouldn't be giving the extra points to city residents.
[As long as their making non-residents pay full NYC income tax in the form of the 1127 tax, they shouldn't be giving the extra points to city residents.]
NYC income tax is trivial compared to the contribution they would be making to the local economy and the tax base if they lived in the City.
And, in all fairness, the NYC tax is much smaller than the NYS tax on the same income. Not that I wouldn't rather have the money in my pocket.
Well, not totally gone. For city workers such as
cops and firemen who live out of the city there is
still the TOTALLY ILLEGAL
1127 tax which means we have to pay the same city
taxes as if we were residents. This includes ALL
income, even income earned ouside the city such as
second jobs or bank interest. (I live in Nassau
and had to include my bank interest from a local
Nassau bank and even a triple I won at a Vermont dog
track on my 1127 tax form) They say we signed
for it when we were hired but: There was no
choice, either you sign it or not get hired-color="red">DURESS" and...They never
explained what we were signing or gave us enough
time to read the legalese fine print.
I'd gladly give up the commuter tax for City employees -- in return for a residency requirement. The thought of NYC Board of Education employees sending their kids to NYC schools tickles me pink.
But then where would the next generation of teachers come from?
To further clarify:
1. ONLY the CITY's commuter tax was repealed (for state residents) and then struck down (for all).
2. The STATE of New York, of course, keeps its commuter tax.
3. YONKERS, of course, keeps its commuter tax, in the interest of "home rule" (the same argument that was rejected for NYC).
I've been pondering for months where 5 old SMEE Cars wound up, since they no longer reside in Westchester Yard. Well, it seems I found them! By accident! Riding on the BX10 past the Jerome Maintenance Facility on the Paul Av side, I discovered something peculiar that I hadn't noticed previously. I wasn't sure what I was seeing, but I thought it deserved a second look. I walked by the facility and I felt like I discovered a pot of gold. Sitting at the entrance on Paul Av was R-17 #6895, and R-22 #7486. I wasn't sure, where these cars were coming from when I saw them previously, but I know for sure where they are. 6895 call Mosholu Yard home, and so does 7486. Although I didn't see them, I'm sure the R-12/R-14 combo is also stored here along with an R-21 #7267. It looks like there's hope fpr the lost sheep. While their companions went to the scrap line it looks like these cars will be brought back to fight another day. This is a Momentous Occasion. The shop superintendant who left Westchester Yard took the cars with him, and his possessions now reside at the yard on Jerome Av. I'd say a working Museum Train of retired SMEEs is on the way (perhaps for a 2004 celebration?) So let's see: 5 cars, outside of the Museum, plus the 4 inside, we can have a 9 car IRT Train. If there's a spare R-15 somewhere, I'd sure like to know and we can make a 10 Car Train. What significant about the 4 cars in the Museum is that they never ran in a mixed consist together, in the 4 original paint schemes. Certainly, the cars in as delivered paint schemes is bound to make money. What do you think?
-Stef
04/04/2000
Just caught this on UPN Ch.9 news tonight. UMTA intentionally crashed a set of Silverliners into a concrete wall at their Pueblo, Colorado facility. The purpose was to study what happens when passenger cars crash and how passengers can be better protected.
These Silverliners are from SEPTA, a camera close up on the second car revealed car number #245. What a shame! These cars could have been sold to a small time railroad and converted into diesel coaches instead of being ruined. They're Budd built, built to last. Perhaps they could have used those graffittied LIRR M-1's that are being sidelined at Holban yard. Don't know what speed they were traveling when they hit the wall, but considering they were stainless steel, they weren't damaged that bad. End vestibule area got crunched.
Bill Newkirk
[Just caught this on UPN Ch.9 news tonight. UMTA intentionally crashed a set of Silverliners into a concrete wall at their Pueblo, Colorado facility. The purpose was to study what happens when passenger cars crash and how passengers can be better protected.]
It doesn't sound like a particularly useful test. In real life, rail cars aren't likely to crash into concrete barriers - they crash into other rail cars. Crashing the Silverliners into other rail cars probably would have given more realistic results.
There was a longer segment on one of those "news magazine" shows on the networks last night -- I think it was NBC. I think the main reason for the test was to see how various types of seats reacted to the crash. The passenger compartments were loaded with all sorts of cameras and crash dummies, and the video from them was rather intriguing. I think my wife is still a bit P.O.'d at me, because I was pretty much ignoring her while watching this segment.
The train was crashed into a brick wall at 26 MPH. Someone who's a lot better than I am at physics can probably confirm that those results can be extrapolated into a train moving at a speed somewhat higher than 26 MPH crashing into a somewhat movable object. By doing it this way, you save the other rail cars for more tests.
Chuck
Most commuter cars with vestibules have "crush zones" there; these include the detested and despicable (and, thankfully, gone) LIRR MP-75s among other cartypes.
A crash using the M-1s? That might be interesting. I've seen varying degrees of damage involving them, ranging from a little bump (#9621 at Floral Park), a minor impact (#9045 - cowl and bonnet got cracked; on view at HolBan yard) and total destruction (MNRR M-1 after being hit by an M-4; flew over the anticlimber to flatten the M-1 like a pancake - lucky nobody was in it!)
Wayne
too bad they can't
volunteer this act
to the r142's
perhaps a final use for the 110's
You also could crash an R68 into a barrier at top speed. Little damage would result, because it would have been going only 3 m.p.h.
LOLROTF. You can say that again. That's a kneeslapper.
I'd like to see them run a BMT standard into a concrete wall. That car would smash through with nary a scratch and keep right on going.
Let's not start that again, please. Ride the R142s when they go into service. If you don't like them after riding them, then you'll have a reason to put them down. Enough is enough! Stop bashing the R142's until you have ridden them!
I don't wanna wait till they go in service..
I already despise them for the mere fact of
the members they are replacing. Free Speech.
I saw it too.
My first impression - poor Silverliner!!! also note they stripped the traction gear. WHY? That's something that's going to affect the outcome. In fact, the entire insides were stripped.
Also - note the cab got crushed.
But most importantly - note how passengers went *flying*, even though this was a fairly low speed head on.
My guess why - the car didn't crumple. If it crumples (slightly), the car decellerates somewhat slower, and so do the passengers. This is why modern automobiles crunch up in accidents. It's better to slow something gradually (figuratively speaking), then to stop it suddenly.
Of course, this, the tendancy for non articulated cars to go all over in derailments, etc, will be lost on the FRA, who will probbably start requiring seatbelts in trains in a few years.
Bigger, heavier , stronger doesn't automatically mean safer.
Besides - head ons and rear end collisions are very rare these days, and would be even rarer if automatic safety devices were mandatory on *all* heavy rail equipment.
How many head ons or rear end collisions has the LIRR had since they installed ASC?
Well the barrier test is good for determining the effects on passengers inside the train. Unless the drop it off a cliff, that Silverliner isn't really going to get destroyed, but the people inside might. In Europe they have traded structural integrety for speed and economy, so when they get in accidents you don't want to be inside. Remember that German ICE train that dis-integrated. In the Chase MD crash there was also about a 150 mph rate of clousure, but the Amfreets survived relitivly intact and only 25 people were killed compared to over 100 on the German train. Remember that heavier = better. You should try not to absorb the impact, but to plow through whatever you are impacting with. Makes me miss my 1974 Ford LTD.
Explains why the TA/MTA has always favored heavier cars than other systems. (Photos and memories of those wooden cars at Malborne Street might also have played a factor in that over the years)
Now I want to see what happens if a redbird r33 is crashed into that wall. Passangers will go flying and the damn thing will go through the wall like it wasn't even there. They maybe old but they are strong.
No - the body will separate from the car at the beltline and get squished like an accordion beause of the rust factor.
--Mark
I don't know if they're as strong as you'd think.
There's a photo among the R-21/22 types at NY Subway Resources, up at
Morris Park Avenue of one of the 7600 series cars, and it didn't look like it was too strong there.
If you wanna talk strong, think about an R-1/9 type or a BMT Standard........
Yes, but it was hit by a steeple cab.
On the other hand, an R22 work train suffered a pretty grevious injury when it got hit by an R62A at 103d Street. The R62A suffered only a bruised bonnet and broken glass. The R22 was crumpled up pretty bad. Ditto for the R21 vs. the R33 at Utica Avenue portal in 1981 - the older car got the worst of it.
Not sure if the noses of the R33 and R36 cars are positioned differently than their R21 and R22 ancestors...
Side impact is where the Redbirds do better than their more modern counterparts. #8884 (though he bent his frame) did NOT split in two when he picked the switch. Yes, he was scrapped. He bent but he did not break. Had that been an R62 or R62A, you may have had damage comparable to that done to R62 #1440, with carbody penetration. Look what happened to R62A #1909 - at low speed under similar conditions.
Wayne
What happened to 1909?
R62A #1909 picked a switch south of Hunts Point Avenue on November 24 1996 and derailed sideways into a curtain wall. She took a very bad dent in one side and may have suffered frame damage. It did not require she be cut up on the spot like #8884 was but it has her out of action to this day, awaiting disposition or repair.
Wayne
8884 was never cut up on the spot, rather it was chipped on the side to allow clearance for transport to Livonia Yard, 9 track.
And then what became of it? You mean to say it may still be intact? I was under the impression that it had to be cut up on the spot.
-Stef
No. Around 1997, the car was at Livonia. I don't know if it is still there but it was rolled down there on it's own trucks. The car was bent at the frame but by some minor shaving, it was able to be moved through the tunnels to Livonia. It's mate was turned into a silly contraption called a rail adhesion car.
Yes, I've seen #8885, she is a Yellowbird and wears a sign "Gel Applicator Car", usually seen at E 180th Street yard.
Thanks for the info on #8884 - I had been informed that the car was scrapped/cut up on the spot. Perhaps it's still sitting at the back of Livonia yard...
Wayne
The BMT standards have become urban legend when it comes to indestructibility. What else can you say about a car that could take out a row of I-beams or plow through a station sideways and suffer scrapes and bruises, or at worst, a broken light bulb?
In the Chase MD crash there was also about a 150
mph rate of clousure, but the Amfreets survived relitivly intact and only 25 people were
killed compared to over 100 on the German train.
Relatively intact? The diner (Amtrak calls it a "Cafe Car") was mashed flat and coach #21236 was pretty much telescoped by the coach behind it after piggybacking on top of the diner. If the diner was open for business (which it wasn't, thank God) the death toll would have been considerably higher.
As for the ICE train - it fell apart like cheap cardboard. AdTranz - PTUI! You get what you pay for. Too bad so many had to die.
Wayne
I thought I saw the number being 241.....and I thought they said it was going 26 MPH.
I saw the crash and checked my records. The units used were old MP-85 (MA-1B) SILVERLINERS. From what I can tell they still have pleanty left, but does anyone know how many Budds they gave to USDoT? I also know that a few years ago SEPTA still had 5 de-powered PIONEER III electrics. I hope they are still stored at Jenkintown and not in line to be federal test subjects because those cars are historical atrifacts. They were like the first modern MU's and the first (I think) to use all stainless steel construction. Can anyone comment on the status of these great cars and SEPTA's surviving Blueliner?
Who knows. Electric preservation, especially maineline MU stuff, doesn't have any appeal in the US*. You can find plenty of people out there who'll get emotional over some rusted out steamer (there's even talk of an F-40 preservation), but very few who will even think about a bunch of MUs on the scrap line.
The Pioneer IIIs, AFAIK, were more or less failures, slow to accelerate, required manual notching (I'm not sure if they were always like this), and generally unreliable.
They may have been the first all stainless MUs - the Washboards were carbon / stainless composites (a BAD THING)), and I believe beat the MP-85s by a few years. They were also the first "rectifier" MUs, with water cooled ignitrons (technically easier to do). Air blast ignitrons were used in later '85s and the Arrows and other GE-equipped stuff, including the M-2,I believe. The disasterous Westinghouse equipped Metroliners were probbably the first all sillicon MUs in the US (world?).
BTW - there are no EP-5s (first modern US electric passenger loco) around, and AFAIK, all the E33s and E44s (first modern freight electrics) left do not have their main transformers (thanks to the EPA and PCB paranoia - there's still thousands if not millions of PCB transformers in service all over the US)
I'm sure when the E-60s (complete disasters) and AEM-7 (complete sucesses) go, they'll all be uncerimoniously scrapped, along with all the M-1s**. After all, electric equipment isn't important, just the vital backbone of the 3 largest commuter RRs in the US...
*Not so in Europe, naturally.
** Diasater? Success? I'd call the MP-54s a success, and the M-1s were a HUGE step forward in comfort, but I'm not sure about the reliability, and they were never really used to their full potential...
I just heard that Governer Pataki is backing a full length Second Avenue Subway.
Any guess as to how long this will take to build?
Judging from the 63rd street tunnel (how many years behind schedule?)can we expect this to be built this century?
If George decides to run for a third term in 2002, look for them to turn the first shovel of asphalt sometime that year.
That doesn't mean they're going to finish it, just that if it can get a few more votes, you might see some movement, espeically if Bush beats out Gore and wants to toss some federal $$ Pataki's way. If Gore wins, then wait until 2004, when he'll come to New York with Senator Clinton and some vote-getting mass transit start-up bucks.
What I heard on the news, it will take 25 years to build at a cost of 8 billion dollars from the Bronx to lower Manhattan.
[What I heard on the news, it will take 25 years to build at a cost of 8 billion dollars from the Bronx to lower Manhattan.]
As opposed to the original IRT, a line of about the same length which, built at the turn of the century with picks, shovels, and dynamite, took just 4.
LONGER. The line went to 145 Street. Although it went only to City Hall when opened, not to South Ferry, are we really sure that they'll build a Water Street line as opposed to connecting to Nassau Street?
They'd be better off connecting to Nassau Street and the Rutgers Tunnel, as the RPA proposed, rather than building a new line to Nassau Street. There is plenty of Lower Manhattan subway capacity as it is -- the trains through the Montigue Tunnel are half-empty, and those coming down from Willie B are completely empty after Chambers. The Broad Street line is one of the best in the system -- it should be used. A direct link to the Rutgers and on to DeKalb would allow a shortcut to Midtown.
If they did that, it would be best to keep the current four-track set-ups at Chambers and Canal, and use the two north tracks for the Second Ave. connection and from ther through to Nassau Street, while the two south tracks could be used for the J/M/Z terminating at Chambers, since it's less likely someone would actually want to go from Brooklyn to Brooklyn via the Willie B and Montague Street tunnel than go to downtown Brooklyn from Second Ave.
BTW -- I'm posting this message on Netscape 6, and it looks weird typing it out, so I'm sorry in advance if it doesn't post right.
Posted fine.
Not true. During workdays, the 2 stops below Chambers (Fulton and Broad Sts.) are the busiest on the whole line.
The solution I've used in my Second Avenue plans is slightly different: New track down to stations at Chatham Square and Park Row (with transfers at Park Row), and then a track connection to Nassau Street. (The old Nassau Loop tracks are too tight for this use, anyway.)
On the Rutgers link - the way I see it, going through the Rutgers tunnel is the exclusive job of the Houston local(s). Instead, the Chrystie St connection will be shifted completely over to the 2nd Avenue line: the express tracks will link up with the north side Manhattan Bridge tracks, and one branch of the local tracks will be turned onto the Williamsburg Bridge. This leaves the Houston expresses to tunnel into the other part of my proposed system: the Utica Avenue line to Kings Plaza.
The other connections that I have proposed for the 2nd Avenue Subway are track connections from midtown 2nd Avenue to 63rd Street Tunnel to Queens, and 63rd Street Tunnel from Broadway to Upper East Side 2nd Avenue. Transfers would be made at 2nd/Houston, 14th Street, and 42nd/Grand Central Terminal.
Why would you run lines from one residential area to another?
Arti
[They'd be better off connecting to Nassau Street and the Rutgers Tunnel, as the RPA proposed, rather than building a new line to Nassau Street. There is plenty of Lower Manhattan subway capacity as it is -- the trains through the Montigue Tunnel are half-empty, and those coming down from Willie B are completely empty after Chambers. The Broad Street line is one of the best in the system -- it should be used. A direct link to the Rutgers and on to DeKalb would allow a shortcut to Midtown.]
I think you're right. The only problem with doing that is greater walking distance to businesses along water street. But it's far more important to have a real 4 track express from GCT to Chambers--otherwise the line will draw little traffic from the Lex. (If that's absolutely impossible due to budget constraints, they should still trade that final stretch for a 2 track link from GCT to the Bway express above 14th Street, which would provide essentially the same service).
The RPA seems to have overproposed on this one, with a new tunnel linking the 2nd Avenue to the Atlantic Avenue line. With all that excess capacity at Rutgers, Nassau, and the Willy B, it makes much more sense to bring in Airtrains and in lieu of the RPA's high amenity hybrid Atlantic Avenue service, a combination of Atlantic Avenue/JMZ superexpresses, with the former going up the Broadway line while the latter come down to Broad Street.
On April 10, I fired off a skeleton proposal for a privately built Second Avenue line to Community Boards 3, 6, 8, and 11. Obviously, the MTA could not care less about the Second Avenue Subway and I think that everybody at this site realize it. Therefore, a proposal for an elevated line will be molded from this process by the community using either conventional rail, monorail, or cable technology (www.aerobus.com). I plan to unveil the details at the MTA Capital Meeting in June. That may be the only move that could bring the shovels out at this point.
[On April 10, I fired off a skeleton proposal for a privately built Second Avenue line to Community Boards 3, 6, 8, and 11. Obviously, the MTA could not care less about the Second Avenue Subway and I think that everybody at this site realize it. Therefore, a proposal for an elevated line will be molded from this process by the community using either conventional rail, monorail, or cable technology (www.aerobus.com). I plan to unveil the details at the MTA Capital Meeting in June. That may be the only move that could bring the shovels out at this point.]
While I share your skepticism over the government's intentions to build the 2nd Avenue subway, and agree 100% that the best way to do it would be privately (and watch how quickly government agencies turn into defensive monopolies when someone proposes running something privately), I'd say that the chance of a new el on 2nd Ave is something less than zero. The real estate is just too valuable.
Elevated lines are not the unsavory monsters that many community leaders find repulsive. These are new above ground lines using state-of-the-art technology. Furthermore, if the monorail option is selected by the communities as their preferred alternative, the effect may even be less.
This is why I sent that information to the community boards. They will be able to decide for themselves.
The only way to sell a new EL in NYC is to first replace a piece of an old El with new conbstruction using the new technology proposed for the new El. In other words, you have to show everone a sample. My candidate for replacement: that g-dawfull mess at Queensboro Plaza. If you can make that quiet and attractive, you can build an El anywhere you want.
Wow, that would really tie things up for years on two lines going into Manhattan, even if the complex is a gawdawful mess.
If they ever did to a test line, a more likely candidate would be one of the branch routes, like the A going to Lefferts or the 4 at the far north end near Woodlawn. That would limit the overall disruption to the system.
On April 10, I fired off a skeleton proposal for a privately built Second Avenue line to Community Boards 3, 6, 8, and 11. Obviously, the MTA could not care less about the Second Avenue Subway and I think that everybody at this site realizes it. Therefore, a proposal for an elevated line will be molded from this process by the community using either conventional rail, monorail, or cable technology (www.aerobus.com). I plan to unveil the details at the MTA Capital Meeting in June. That may be the only move that could bring the shovels out at this point.
[LONGER. The line went to 145 Street. Although it went only to City Hall when opened, not to South Ferry, are we really sure that they'll build a Water Street line as opposed to connecting to Nassau Street?]
And it gained a few blocks by going across as well . . .
I'm not sure about Nassau/Water Street. I'd rather have them save some money by using Nassau Street then boring a tunnel for four tracks. I think they'll be doing something we'll regret one day if they stick us with a permanent 2 track job.
The reasons for the delay are more financial than technical. No one at the MTA or elsewhere in government wants to make too tight a commitment to this project. (They might be more reasonable if LIRR East Side Access wasn't at the top of the list.)
Los Angeles built 17 miles of subway in 14 years, although that was slow because of financial reasons too. Washington, DC, built a 100 mile system in about 34 years, although not all of it was underground.
As for $8 billion dollars; the Port Authority is spending over $9 billion to rebuilt Kennedy Airport, including new terminals and the AirTrain.
[The reasons for the delay are more financial than technical. No one at the MTA or elsewhere in government wants to make too tight a commitment to this project. (They might be more reasonable if LIRR East Side Access wasn't at the top of the list.)
Los Angeles built 17 miles of subway in 14 years, although that was slow because of financial reasons too. Washington, DC, built a 100 mile system in about 34 years, although not all of it was underground.
As for $8 billion dollars; the Port Authority is spending over $9 billion to rebuilt Kennedy Airport, including new terminals and the AirTrain.]
It makes economic sense under such circumstances to save up and build the project at the end. I recognize that there are fiscal and politial realities here--people need to be fooled into thinking that something is happening right away, and as things now stand local government couldn't sit on cash--but the result is an almost criminally inefficient use of capital that would put any business out of business.
Backing a full length 2nd Ave. line assures it's demise again. It's too expensive to be reasonably funded. The lower pricetag for the stubway would have given it's chances of actual construction a bigger bost.
[Backing a full length 2nd Ave. line assures it's demise again. It's too expensive to be reasonably funded. The lower pricetag for the stubway would have given it's chances of actual construction a bigger bost.]
If the line were built over a 10 year period at the MTA's projected cost of $8 billion/year, the total would come to less than $1 billion/year. That's less than 3% of the muncipal budget alone; a 3% budget cut in all other areas, apportioned as desired, would do the trick, and it's hard to think of an area that doesn't have a lot more than 3% fat. So would a $1 fare hike. So would eliminating featherbedding and overstaffing at the MTA. And why those massive subsidies to provide LIRR riders with astoudingly bad service? The LIRR is terminally ill. Fire everybody in it and give the operation to New Jersey Transit. (I'm a lot more serious than you might think.)
New York State spends $1 billion/year on educating twice as many doctors as the state actually uses. How about using some of that? And while we're at it, replace that steak they serve at Riker's Island with minimially nutritious slop, and when the prisoners riot, use it as an opportunity to keep them off the streets for another year or two.
I could go on, but the problem isn't a lack of money, it's porkbarelling on a massive scale. Everyone from the beggar on the corner to the Mediocrity in Albany is in for his cut.
[If the line were built over a 10 year period at the MTA's projected cost of $8 billion/year, the total would come to less than $1 billion/year. That's less than 3% of the muncipal budget alone; a 3%
budget cut in all other areas, apportioned as desired, would do the trick, and it's hard to think of an area that doesn't have a lot more than 3% fat. So would a $1 fare hike. So would eliminating
featherbedding and overstaffing at the MTA. And why those massive subsidies to provide LIRR riders with astoudingly bad service? The LIRR is terminally ill. Fire everybody in it and give the operation to New Jersey Transit. (I'm a lot more serious than you might think.)]
Not that it should take anything close to ten years in the first place. Public support for the Second Avenue line would be a lot greater if the danged thing could be built in a short enough period of time to actually be useful. Most of the people today who might use the line will have moved away by the time it's actually built, assuming the MTA's preposterous timetable is followed.
[Not that it should take anything close to ten years in the first place. Public support for the Second Avenue line would be a lot greater if the danged thing could be built in a short enough period of time to actually be useful. Most of the people today who might use the line will have moved away by the time it's actually built, assuming the MTA's preposterous timetable is followed.]
Has anybody figured out the cost of tying up all that capital? If they're really going to take that long to build it, they should do nothing until the last five years.
04/10/2000
A full lenght 2nd Ave Subway could never be built in one fell swoop because of the tremendous amount of capital needed to fund this. The line will have to be built in sections until a full lenght is achieved.
Remember Brooklyn's Fulton Street subway? Was it built in whole with a connection to the Rockaways? No, it was done in sections. Why? perhaps not enough capital to fund it?
Bill Newkirk
Wartime shortages too.
[04/10/2000
A full lenght 2nd Ave Subway could never be built in one fell swoop because of the tremendous amount of capital needed to fund this. The line will have to be built in sections until a full lenght is achieved.
Remember Brooklyn's Fulton Street subway? Was it built in whole with a connection to the Rockaways? No, it was done in sections. Why? perhaps not enough capital to fund it?
Bill Newkirk]
Actually, most of the City's transit lines were built in fell swoops, because no private company would do anything as stupid as tying up capital in projects that can't be used. Basic economics: any businessman who suggested a strategy of builidng something slowly would be fired on the spot.
In the case of the Second Avenue Subway, the City could easily finance the project by allocating 2-1/2% of the municipal budget for 8 years. The $1 billion already allocated in state funds would reduce that to 7, or one year longer than the actual construction period.
[Actually, most of the City's transit lines were built in fell swoops, because no private company would do anything as stupid as tying up capital in projects that can't be used. Basic economics: any businessman who suggested a strategy of builidng something slowly would be fired on the spot.]
Which is why you probably won't see many former government employees involved in private real estate development :-)
[In the case of the Second Avenue Subway, the City could easily finance the project by allocating 2-1/2% of the municipal budget for 8 years. The $1 billion already allocated in state funds would reduce that to 7, or one year longer than the actual construction period.]
With the City's overstaffing and monstrous levels of Medicaid spending, making such a reallocation would be child's play.
I think the Long Island Railroad would have had a problem with the city running A trains to the Rockaways in 1940.
Other than that, I agree that starting the upper part of the Second Ave. line is more likely to get the lower part built, but only if it's done in a continuous process, where the planning and contract letting is done as the upper section is being finished, which is pretty much the way things were done between 1904 and 1940.
The negative side is if the upper Second Ave. work, or the LIRR Grand Central connection, becomes "Son of Big Dig" -- a money pit of pork that wipes out any other construction plans for years to come because it's so over budget.
In that case, not building the line all at once would mean funding for lower Second Ave. could fall victim to the public's anger over the first part of the project's cost. Hopefully, if they get the thing started soon enough, the Boston fiasco will still be fresh enough in everyone's memory to create a measure of restraint against the same kind of waste on the project.
[I think the Long Island Railroad would have had a problem with the city running A trains to the Rockaways in 1940.
Other than that, I agree that starting the upper part of the Second Ave. line is more likely to get the lower part built, but only if it's done in a continuous process, where the planning and contract letting is done as the upper section is being finished, which is pretty much the way things were done between 1904 and 1940.
The negative side is if the upper Second Ave. work, or the LIRR Grand Central connection, becomes "Son of Big Dig" -- a money pit of pork that wipes out any other construction plans for years to come because it's so over budget.
In that case, not building the line all at once would mean funding for lower Second Ave. could fall victim to the public's anger over the first part of the project's cost. Hopefully, if they get the thing started soon enough, the Boston fiasco will still be fresh enough in everyone's memory to create a measure of restraint against the same kind of waste on the project.]
Do you know how much they're planning to spend on the entire LIRR GCT access project?
[I think the Long Island Railroad would have had a problem with the city running A trains to the Rockaways in 1940.
Other than that, I agree that starting the upper part of the Second Ave. line is more likely to get the lower part built, but only if it's done in a continuous process, where the planning and contract letting is done as the upper section is being finished, which is pretty much the way things were done between 1904 and 1940.
The negative side is if the upper Second Ave. work, or the LIRR Grand Central connection, becomes "Son of Big Dig" -- a money pit of pork that wipes out any other construction plans for years to come because it's so over budget.
In that case, not building the line all at once would mean funding for lower Second Ave. could fall victim to the public's anger over the first part of the project's cost. Hopefully, if they get the thing started soon enough, the Boston fiasco will still be fresh enough in everyone's memory to create a measure of restraint against the same kind of waste on the project.]
Do you know how much they're planning to spend on the entire LIRR GCT access project?
Do you know how much they're planning to spend on the entire LIRR GCT access project?
4.6 billion.
Arti
[Do you know how much they're planning to spend on the entire LIRR GCT access project?
4.6 billion.
Arti
That's completely insane! We're talking about a 1 mile tunnel and a little terminal. The killer is that you don't really need either, given that *the Metro North tunnels are already there,* as are the lower level platforms at GCT. All they'd have to do is connect the 63rd St. tunnel, convert 2 tracks to LIRR standards, and bring some Metro North trains down the West Side line instead--that would solve the Lexington overcrowding problem at the same time.
[That's completely insane! We're talking about a 1 mile tunnel and a little terminal. ]
I agree, that's why I posted the cost of Eurotunnel (about $7B incl. everything) few weeks ago.
Arti
[I agree, that's why I posted the cost of Eurotunnel (about $7B incl. everything) few weeks ago.
Arti]
And thanks for it--I've used that quote several times. Then too, the Second Avenue Subway would cost more than sending one of three four man crews to Mars. And as someone else pointed out, that $1 billion "study" will cost as much as the new line in LA, which is longer than the stubway.
Also $4.6B for GC access is an estimate, Eurotunnels estimate was about $4.5B. THe main reason for the cost overruns was the uniqueness of the project, tunneling equipment custom made etc.
Arti
I can't believe you are seriously suggesting turning it all over to NJT.... I was thinking the same thing about 10 minutes ago.
[I can't believe you are seriously suggesting turning it all over to NJT.... I was thinking the same thing about 10 minutes ago.]
The Lord works in mysterious ways since he joined that union . . .
This century? Which century is that?
Building a Second Ave subway in this century would probably break all construction speed records, as this century has only 8.5 months left. However, even if 2000 was the real begininning of the 21st. century, I'd doubt we'd see the Second Ave. line in that century as well.
this is something i am looking foward to taking myself and my wife on a short vacation on ..... METROLINK !!
plan to park and then ride from GLENDALE near the R -30s !! (yes)!........
then catch a ride south thru orange county to the OCENSIDE terminal then guess what ??
transfer to the SAN DIEGO TROLLEY !! Finally on the return trip the train has a yes.............RAILFAN WINDOW !
I'm not one to nitpick, but the San Diego Trolley does not connect with Metrolink at Oceanside or anywhere else. However, you can catch a Coaster train, San Diego's commuter line, at Oceanside, and ride that to Old Town station in San Diego, where direct connections are possible with the trolley. Enjoy your trip.
ok then why did the metrolink operator tell me this ?? i looked at thier website called them at thier.. 800
number this guy comes on and tells me oceanside has a san diego trolley connection.. !!??
what i am saying is i called thier number !! ( oh well ) ...
Their information operator obviously made a mistake. They are only human.
Metrolink does NOT have schedules south of Oceanside. From Oceansde to San Diego, the "Coaster" is the commuter agency. Unfortunately, connections between Metrolink and Coaster are NOT very good. The "Coaster" uses the same type of equipment as Metrolink, though their locomotives are different (Metrolink uses F59 and F59PHI units; Coaster uses F40PH-2C's and a pair of leased Amtrak F40's).
If you wish to take a one-seat ride from Los Angeles to San Diego, there is the Amtrak "San Diegan". They run either Amfleet/Horizon single-level equipment, or California Amtrak cars. Yesterday (4-4), one of th trains passed my residence and had a brand new "Surfliner" car in it (now we know why the new Amtrak F59PHI's got painted the way they did -- the "Surfliner" cars match!) The "Surfliner" cars appear very similar to the California Amtrak cars but are painted in a bright blue and silver paint scheme.
thats why i said the operator at metrolink was wrong and gave me wrong information ... i agree with your post !
thank you !!
I will be staying in San Francisco for one week next month and I was hoping the subtalkers would be able to answer a few questions for me.
Is it easy to take transit from the airport to downtown or should I bite the bullet and take a cab?
Is MUNI photo-friendly or do I have to hide my camera?
Where are the Streetcar yards and trolleybus garages?
Have the new ETBs gone into service yet? How many Flyer E800s are still around?
Are there any one week all you can ride passes?
What are some good spots for streetcar shots?
Is there any interesting transit in Oakland?
Thanks in advance and Regards from Toronto
Rob
Rob
Check this link for SF Muni information http://www.transitinfo.org/Muni/.
>Is it easy to take transit from the airport to downtown or should I
>bite the bullet and take a cab?
There's a shuttle bus to the BART Colma station but there's no direct rail, yet. It's probably easier to use one of those hotel van services.
> Is MUNI photo-friendly or do I have to hide my camera?
Never had a problem...
> Where are the Streetcar yards and trolleybus garages?
The streetcar facility is on San Jose Ave. in the Balboa Park section of SF (next to the Balboa Park BART station or take the J K or M streetcars. If you take a look at the ETB wire map (offsite link) you'll see the locations of the ETB depots.
> Are there any one week all you can ride passes?
Yes. You can buy them from vendors or at hotels or at the cable car ticket booths among other places. They are scratch-off folders, not electronic tickets. They allow use of all MUNI lines (bus, streetcar/metro, and cable car lines BUT NOT BART) for the time selected. BART has their own farecard system.
> What are some good spots for streetcar shots?
Check out our SF pics (San Francisco) for some ideas. Around the Geneva car house and LRV facility will have some good shots. Alongside the Mission Dolores Park will have some nice views. There's some interesting vantage points along the J's PRW between Mission and Geneva. Two tunnels, with views at West Portal station and both ends of the Sunset Tunnel. The area around the Mint Division yard will have some nice shots. And don't forget the PCC's on Market St. and Embarcadero.
> Is there any interesting transit in Oakland?
Just BART (in subway) and buses...
-Dave
Looks like I may be visiting Toronto in May. When do you pln on being in San Fran?
--Mark
To answer your questions:
There IS transit from the airport to downtown, but certain routes do not allow baggage on board. Samtrans is the operator, buses have red/blue striping on a white body. There IS an "Airporter" bus from outside the baggage claims to a downtown terminal for around ten bucks. These are Greyhound-type buses. They also drop at a few downtown hotels too.
Take all the pictures you want of Muni, they don't seem to give a crap about anything. I've even walked right through their shops and nobody said anything but "Hi, how's it going?"
The streetcar/trolley shops are near the "Balboa Park" BART station. You can also use Muni streetcar routes J, K, or M to get to the shops. There's only one for the rail system. Cablecar barn is at Washington & Mason; it's right on the Powell-Mason or Powell-Hyde cablecar line. Muni historical vehicles are kept on trackage alongside the U.S. Mint, near Church & Duboce on the J or N lines.
Trolleybus garages -- Presidio division is at Presidio & Geary. Potrero Division is in the area of 18th & Potrero. Only two of the new ETB's are being tested; still plenty of the Flyer E800's. I'd guess that 85-90% of the original 345-unit fleet is still around.
Yes, there are weekly passes, the best way to do it. I think they run $12.00.
Good spots for streetcar shots? Anywhere along Market Street (upper end less traffic) or the new Embarcadero Line. Mostly PCC's in these areas. For Boeing's out around Balboa Park. For Breda's, anywhere on the N line.
Interesting transit in Oakland? Not in my book, but others may have something they like over there.
>Is it easy to take transit from the airport to downtown or should I bite the bullet and take a cab?
Depends what you consider easy. From SFO, SamTrans route BX goes to the Colma BART station, KX goes downtown but does not allow luggage, 193 goes to Daily City BART, and 292 also goes downtown. From Oakland airport, the AirBART shuttle goes to Coliseum BART, so does AC Transit line 58. Line A goes to downtown SF after taking a detour through downtown Oakland.
>Is MUNI photo-friendly or do I have to hide my camera?
I've never has any problems.
>Is there any interesting transit in Oakland?
Depends on what interests you. Other than BART theres just buses and a few transbay ferry lines. Amtrak trains run down the middle of the street through Jack London Square. The most scenic AC Transit line I've been on is the
59 between Jack London Square and the Montclair district, it's not very interesting from a transit perspective, though.
It's my understanding that the 2nd Ave. Subway is going to be built to B Division specifications. If that's the case, then how is rolling stock placement and trainyard storage/maintenance going to take place unless the line is tied into B Division Tracks? The only logical choice would seem to be the N/R connection via 63rd St. if the line is built only as far as 125th St. Even if the full line is built in Manhattan, this 63rd St. connection seems necessary.
I think that's the likely connection point; there may be another one downtown near Grand Street (legend says Grand St's outside walls are easily torn down revealing a wider platform and a trackway).
The full-length 2nd Ave subway is planned for in the state's next budget. Now all they have to do is get the feds to cough up a measly 12 billion dollars and we'll be all set.
Looking forward to a "big dig" of our own ....
--Mark
Not even. The 1950's version was fully funded with a huge bond act, but that money was "diverted" to other projects. I'll believe it when the first R32 rolls up the new line (and they'll be running that far into the future too!)
[Not even. The 1950's version was fully funded with a huge bond act, but that money was "diverted" to other projects. I'll believe it when the first R32 rolls up the new line (and they'll be running that far into the future too!)]
That means money was diverted at least two times. And when the next fiscal crisis hits, and we realize that the MTA took on an onerous debt during the Pataki years?
Gee, maybe we should raise taxes and just build the damn thing already.
[Gee, maybe we should raise taxes and just build the damn thing already.]
Really. Or raise the fare, or cut useless expenditures, or something. Considering that NYC gets shafted on the money that goes through Albany, it would be in the City's interest to raise the peak fare so that commuters (and City residents both) paid a fairer share.
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*limited time is whenevery this post get pulled from the board.
**Free, as long as I get some form of money.
***The nice wind that YOU won't be able to enjoy because it's a TRANSVERSE CAR!
ok! whats the point ?? FLAMAGE .... or political - incorrectness maybe the SPELL CHECK goon squad !!
whatever it is please keep us informed ! I can hardly wait too see where this goes ....... 142s junk ..... and ends !!!
Now I know this was written before I wrote my calm down message but I had to comment on two things.
You have made comments to other posters about using foul language and how that may be offensive. But you yourself have renamed the thread using a number that many people could find offensive. I could think that it was just a random number indicating a tremendous cost, but I have seen this before.
Second you complain about the flamage that the previous message contained, then you added to the fire with your last comment of the quality of a certain new car class. Don't expect the flames to stop when you wave them on.
Your postings putting down the R142s are exactly the same as people shortening your name - it is done to get a rise out of people.
I personally have no issues with you or any other posters. I only have issues with threads and this one is getting close to my limit...
-- David
I just knew I shouldn't have answered this phone call. Yep, it's just what I thought more nonsense :-( Some folks have entirely too much free time on their hands.
.... First you have to rise and shine... and then pay your fine... then ride the r-142s ....DUMMY-LINE..!!!
I remember singing the "Dummy Line" song in kindergarten.
I.. heard it in day camp 1959 ..!! " riding on the dummy (r-142) on the dummy dummy line..!!
Yes I am Robert Johnson
Thanks for your honesty.
-- David
Thanks for the kilfiles!
-Hank
Several months ago I mentioned to youi that on the search engine you can only search for years 1995-1998 You said that you would eventually get to it when you redesigned the web page. Since then you inserted the password program but the dates remain obsolete
The second question I have is since 1995 when this site has started hard drive capibility has greatly increased. A 10 gig hardrive is pretty much standard and even 73 gig drives are available. Why cant you get a new hard drive big enough to hold al the messages for reveiwing? Messages dont take up a lot of space
It's not a matter of the disk space it's a matter of the ability of the software to search the messages without overwhelming the machine. The existing SubTalk software puts a pretty high load on the server and I don't think it is adequate to use for searching over 100,000 messages. Some better system needs to be designed and written and it is simply not a priority of mine at this time.
Dave does a great job with this site. We all appreciate new features on the web pages, and the many great photos he adds. Please remember that this is a labor of love with little or no reward. (In fact it costs him money!) Anything he accomplishes for us is great!
Gerry
Dave, have you ever considered using the kind of software that railroad.net uses for its forums. Each response is apparently added to the end of the file containing the thread being responded to rather than being stored as a separate file. Less flexible. You load whole threads, not individual postings. But it's got to be less of a burden on the processor since there are fewer items to search through.
Wednesday April 5 6:47 AM ET
Norway Town Evacuated As Train Explosion Feared
By Lise Merete Olaussen
LILLESTROEM, Norway (Reuters) - Police evacuated residents from two towns near Oslo on Wednesday, fearing a giant explosion after a train carrying more than 100 tonnes of propane gas collided with another train and caught fire.
More than 2,000 people, including schoolchildren and hospital patients, were evacuated after the collision at 1 a.m. (2300 GMT Tuesday) at Lillestroem station, about 20 kms (12 miles) north of the capital.
Police cordoned off an area stretching 800 meters (yards) from the station, and also covering a part of the neighboring town of Raelingen.
They warned residents the train could explode in a gigantic fireball that could destroy nearby buildings and send a shower of debris and glass cascading over the area.
No one was hurt in the crash, which happened when one train inexplicably ran into the back of another on one of Norway's busiest lines. One of the trains was carrying 104 tonnes of liquid propane.
``We believe that all the people are out of the area,'' deputy police chief Asbjoern Gran told Reuters. ``An explosion would be extremely violent.''
One propane tank was ruptured in the accident and was on fire. Firefighters chose to let the blaze rage, reckoning it would eventually burn out without exploding.
The main danger was that a sealed tank on the next wagon, containing about 44 tonnes of propane, could be heated by the fire and explode. Firefighters tried to cool the second tank by hosing it with water.
Blaze To Last Hours
``It could take many hours for the fire to burn out,'' Gran said. It was unclear whether residents would have to spend the night away from their homes, in sub-zero temperatures.
All rail services along the line, including express trains to and from Oslo airport north of Lillestroem, were cancelled. A total of 25,000 people live in Lillestroem and 15,000 in Raelingen.
The crash was Norway's second major accident this year. Nineteen people died in January when two passenger trains collided head-on in south Norway, apparently after a driver ignored a red light. Streets of Lillestroem, whose main claim to fame is a soccer team in Norway's elite division, were virtually deserted and blanketed with snow in crisp sunshine.
``It's kind of scary because we still don't know what's going on,'' said 17-year-old Anne Torbjoernsen.
Others complained that police had waited until after dawn before deciding to evacuate residents. Police said they initially believed that the fire would be brought under control.
Tuesday April 4, 6:31 pm Eastern Time
Reinforced train seats offer more protection
By John Norton
PUEBLO, Colo., April 4 (Reuters) - Tests by federal safety officials on Tuesday showed that reinforced seats in passenger trains can protect people from being thrown about the rail car during an accident.
In a test crash of two passenger rail cars conducted by the Federal Railroad Administration at the Transportation Technology Center, the second car derailed slightly but it appeared that most of the dummies aboard either remained in their seats or near the seat.
In a previous test crash test in November, the only dummies that remained in their seats were ones wearing seat belts.
In Tuesday's test, the seats had stronger reinforcement on their pedestals and the backs of the seats were constructed differently to absorb the shock of the dummies striking them, engineers said.
The tests are carried out to verify what engineers expect will happen in rail crashes as they try to come up with safer rail cars.
The test was conducted at about 26 mph, but because the rail cars are crashing into a concrete-reinforced steel wall the impact is the equivalent of one train hitting another at about 70 mph, engineers said.
``Rail transportation is already a very safe mode of travel. We intend to make it safer,'' U.S. Secretary of Transportation Rodney Slater said.
Slater and other federal, local and state officials witnessed the crash test on the Colorado prairie, about 30 miles east of Pueblo.
Inside the cars were 13 crash test dummies in a variety of seat configurations, some wearing seat belts and some not.
In addition to the dummies, there were about 200 other monitoring devices to test the force of the impact and other results such as derailment and lateral movement of the cars.
Kristine Severson, a mechanical engineer with the DOT's Volpe National Transportation Systems Center, said facing rear offers an advantage to passengers, but only if the seat is well secured.
Next November a test crash will be carried out with a passenger train striking a freight locomotive.
Friday March 31 12:48 PM ET
CSX Rail System Found Dangerous
WASHINGTON (AP) - Concerned about a series of derailments, federal railroad inspectors found deteriorating track conditions in the CSX Transportation system used by passenger, freight and commuter trains up and down the East Coast.
CSX President Ronald Conway ``was very appropriately appalled by what we have found ... and he committed to work very diligently to address those concerns,'' George Gavalla, the Federal Railroad Administration's associate administrator for safety, said today.
Gavalla said his agency had audited CSX in 1997 and became concerned because it hadn't seen a reduction in derailments and other problems. A new safety audit was launched in February.
``The main concern was the lack of quality control in CSX track inspection maintenance programs,'' Gavalla said. He said the railroad has promised to initiate safety programs that go beyond federal standards.
Problems were found in track conditions used by Amtrak and commuter rail lines and in one case insufficient repairs were made following a derailment, Gavalla said.
The audit found a 60 percent increase in track-caused accidents over five years on the 22,700-mile system, according to a report in The Washington Post.
The review found many instances in which the distance between the rails had spread wide enough to risk derailments.
Two such wide areas were found in the District of Columbia on the line used by Amtrak, Virginia Railway Express and all north-south CSX freight trains. The defects were repaired immediately after they were found.
Defects were also found in Florida, Pennsylvania and Maryland
Two of three recent track-caused derailments were caused by wide track, including a minor derailment of Amtrak's Chicago-Washington Capitol Limited at Connellsville, Pa., on Jan. 30.
Federal safety standards dictate the conditions of railroad track including the gauge, or distance between tracks. Railroads are supposed to inspect their tracks twice a week and, when problems are found, either make immediate repairs or slow traffic over the area until it can be fixed.
The special safety audit is not a rare event, Gavalla said. ``We always have inspectors on every railroad virtually every day.
RICHMOND, Va., March 31 /PRNewswire/ -- John W. Snow, chairman and chief executive officer of CSX Corporation which owns and operates the largest freight railroad in the eastern half of the United States, responded to a front-page story in today's Washington Post concerning Federal Railroad Administration findings of track defects on the railroad's 23,400 route-mile network.
``There can be no compromise on any safety condition on our railroad,'' Snow said. ``We recognize some problems and openly welcome the FRA's draft report in the spirit it is offered -- a genuine and sincere interest in assuring even greater safety on our railroad.
``I have studied the draft report and discussed its findings personally with FRA Administrator Molitoris,'' Snow added. ``CSX will continue to work closely with FRA officials and our labor unions to ensure safe rail operations. Our people, the Amtrak riders and commuters who are carried on our network, our customers and the communities we serve must have complete trust in our commitment to the highest safety standards.''
CSX has repaired or is in the process of repairing all of the defects identified in the report. ``Where work is in progress, operations have been modified to ensure safe movement of trains,'' Snow noted.
Snow will be personally heading an internal company review of all track maintenance and improvement programs to make sure these efforts are fully effective.
In the past four years CSX has invested more than $4 billion in railroad capital improvements. Of this total, $791 million has been spent on rail replacement and repair, cross ties and surfacing of the roadbed.
CSX Corporation, headquartered in Richmond, Va., operates the largest rail network in the eastern United States, and also provides intermodal, container- shipping and contract logistics services.
SOURCE: CSX Corporation
Yes arti I am Robert Johnson
Thursday March 30, 2:53 pm Eastern Time
U.S. train-bus collision claims third child
CHATTANOOGA, Tenn., March 30 (Reuters) - A third child has died from injuries suffered this week when a train slammed into a school bus at a crossing on the Georgia-Tennessee border, a hospital spokeswoman said on Thursday.
Amber Pritchett, 9, died late Wednesday at Erlanger Medical Center in Chattanooga, said hospital spokeswoman Sharon Cahill, who declined additional comment.
Kayla Silvers, 6, and Daniel Pack, 9, died at the scene of the collision on Tuesday. An 8-year-old boy and a 5-year-old girl remained in critical condition, and another boy was in fair condition at the hospital,
Rhonda Cloer, 34, the bus driver whose daughter is in critical condition, was discharged from the hospital on Wednesday.
On Thursday, a team of National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) investigators postponed a reenactment of the crash due to bad weather at the site where the school bus was sliced in half by a fast-moving freight train near Tennga, Georgia, about 30 miles (48 km) east of Chattanooga.
Investigators examined the train's ``black box,'' which recorded the engineer blowing his horn and applying the brakes before impact, and a video camera aboard the bus that monitored the students.
Residents near the crash site, marked only by a sign with no crossing gates or warning lights, said it could be difficult for drivers to spot oncoming trains because of a curve in the tracks and a clump of encroaching pine trees.
NTSB Chairman Jim Hall said he was curious about any followup to recommendations from a 1998 safety board study on crashes at rail crossings that lack warning lights or gates.
``I'm very concerned, and I personally do not believe any passive grade crossings should be crossed by a bus carrying school children,'' Hall said.
The average cost of warning light systems are about $150,000 per crossing.
The train involved in the crash was a 33-car CSX Corp.freight hauling finished automobiles from Cincinnati, Ohio, to Tampa, Florida. It was traveling 55 mph (88 kph) just before the accident, the company said.
For many years of traveling on the Fulton Ave line , when ever I'm at East New York I wonder why the station walls were built with the indentations {(4) at the east end of the platforms.
I know the Bayridge Branch rus underneath, but why the indents?
Another question always pops into mind when I'm in that area is "Where were the punchouts east of the station planned to go to , to the LIRR, to Canarsie, to the Bway LIne?
Exactly what station are you referring to? Broadway/East New York, Utica Ave., Rockaway Ave.???
You mention having been in East New York. That's a geographic area -- not necessarily referring to one of three stations within that particular neighborhood on the Fulton line.
The Bay Ridge Line runs underneath the Fulton Line only at the Broadway-East New York station location (this also goes for the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Branch). I'm not sure what those indentations you saw mean on the Fulton line. Perhaps another SubTalk can shed some light here.
Doug aka BMTman
Under the Broadway-East New York Station.Ther \e are what appears to be 4 sealed up sections on the walls of both local tracks, at the eastern most end of the station. I,m guessing the Bayridge branch is beneath this level . But why not a smooth wall?
Then moving east into the tunnel are what appeare as pre-built cut outs. Where was the intended destination, LIRR under Atlantic ave, the Canarsie LIne , The Jamaica/Bway line?
avid
Ps Variety Magazine hinted at a series of "Heypaul Spy Thriller Movies"soon to go to Contract.
[Under the Broadway-East New York Station.Ther \e are what appears to be
4 sealed up sections on the walls of both local tracks, at the eastern
most end of the station. I,m guessing the Bayridge branch is beneath
this level . But why not a smooth wall?]
Avid, I'll have to pay more attention on my next ride back from downtown, and do alittle detective work at the eastern most end of the platforms.
BTW, much appreciated your "Heypaul humor" there with those "Spy Thriller Movies". At least there are some of us who frequent here who were born with funnybones ;-)
Later,
Doug aka BMTman
It has been revealed from unnamed sources that Leonardo De Capria will play a youthful "HEYPAUL" in the coming blockbuster "Secrets of the Mistress of The Welded Ribbon.
a page from the Screen play revealed...
He stood restlessly, shifting his lean muscled weight from side to side in a hungry anticapation. A light bead of persperation began to form above his upper lip. His palms began to become ever so slightly moist. He new in his every fiber , THE time was soon. His sixth sense could detect her approach. Was it her scent? Was it the soft wisper of air moving across his cheek? Then he caught a glimpse of her as she came steadely closer. There romance grew from a casual meeting several years earlier.
She was older then he, but only by a scant five years. She had watched him grow from an child to an audacios young man.It was she who brought him from a mere boy to a full man. This occasion was like many before. While his mind drifted she took the opportunity to glide before him . There was a certain glow about her that only he could see, it was for him, and him alone.She presented herself to him , for his inspection, he liked what he saw. He took a few trembling steps towards her. She sighed, his breath was in short deliberate gasps.She opened herself wide to him . He moved closer and gently forced himself deeper and deeper into her welcoming warmth. He was totally engulfed as she closed around him.A wonderful warm sense of wellbeing , of belonging flooded his every fiber. She was the first to move,to slowly rock, and he followed her every movement like a mirror. The dance had begun, they were like one as their frenze began to build. She began to moan , to heave , and to sigh as she led the pace. He was quick to follow with moves of his own while in his mind he wished it could go on forever. A ritual was being played and not for the first time.The movements reached higher and higher until a crescendo had once again been achieved. Slowly the tempo lessened and her grip on him loosened. Then the final hearbreak , as he tumbled out ,as her grip was now too loose to hold him to her.They both stopped, she sighed , he turned his back to her as she waited for more, but none was coming. He left her alone and in the dark .
He climber the stairs as she called to him from the dark. He couldn't even look back. The F" train moved on to the next one waiting her favors.
"CUT" "THATS A TAKE"
"MAKEUP MAKEUP DO SOMETIME WITH HIS FACE, HE"S ALL SWEATY"
"WARDROBE GET HIM A FRESH SHIRT"
"YA DID REAL GOOD KID!"
Avid
Very clever!(and not for the kiddies!)
Have you ever taken serious creative writing courses? I think you have a real talent there.
BTW, I hope heypaul gets to read it before he killfiles this enter site.
Doug aka BMTman
Nothing formal,in my wild youth I was always getting into some kind of situation where a good line of B.S. was able to smooth things over.
Then ,when part of the Green Machine ,I learned to see the absurd in a humorist light. I guess things sort of fell into place like dominoes, things that can be take two or more ways.
Heypaul has printed a denial, of coarse this was to be expected after it was revealed by unnamed sauces , DEMI MOORE will play Heypaul in one of his Master of disguise characters in the coming Multi-star block buster Movie "Secrets of the Bavarian Sausage Gruppen Fuerer"
Inside sources are trying to root out more info on this developing Expose'
avid
Items found in his Motormen cab have been Traced to Roswell, Nevada, about 1947-48 . It has time travel capibilities! That explains his success on the Stock Market.
Just in from disgrunteled gardener in the film capital of Queens, Astoria, an unofficial page of the screen play . "Secrets of the Bavarian Sausage Gruppen Fuerer" with Demi Moore as "Heypaul" Master of Disguise.
After returning from the Merkel meat market, our hero unwrapped the 1/4 lb of Braunswiger and read the coded message . He had to use his "Platform and Mezzenine Inspectors secret decoding ring". His lip quivered with excitement as he slowly read the message a fifth time.He immeadatly began to set his afairs in order, he put the cat out, he drained a bottle of flat Ginger Ale. He went into the bedroom to the nightstand and put the lid on a tin of salted Peanuts. He was ready.
He headed to the "Motormens Cab", a quick look around, wait a minute , he dashed to the bathroom and flushed the toilet. Now he was ready, back to the "Motormens Cab", A few quick adjustments, check the pressure in the Dump Sludge Eliminator, OK , Extra fuses, OK, Bottle of Carl Ehmeres Mustard with Horseradish , OK . SET....
He pushed the Break Controler the full distance, compressed air could be heard venting, Ligths dimed twice, flickered , then came on full and very very bright. An ear splitting noise accompanied by a mild and pleasing vibration seized the "Motormens Cab" . Now an extremely brillant flash of light similar to the arc of light when a slow moving subway moves over a switch during a snow storm rocked the "CAB". The smell of OZONE was in the air. Not Ozone Park, OZONE the gas. You know O3.
When the ringing of the ears deminished, and vision slowly went from Deep Purple to a dull flat orange , the door was opened. Sun light streamed in , and out stepped "Trudy von Spitzen-Winkler" virtious Sausage Maiden. She had arrived the village of Donglefloggen, Bavaria.
When she turned around to take the measure of the area, she saw she had just exited from "Das Postal Wagon Kaputan". As she bent over to gather up her baskets of Grossenwurst, her ample cleavage caught the eye of her chilhood benifactor, Hans Kindermauler.
Hans ran across the tracks of the shortline feeder branch of Das Clomper und Krashen Railway. He clutched Trudy to him in his Special way and remarked " Was ein Biggen Sausage Maiden you have become my little liebschen. You must kommen zu miner hausen for lunch, ya? Since Trudy was a little sausage maiden of eleven or zwelfe , every Tuesday when Frau Kindermauler would go from Donglefloggen to Munich for Hans's Pretzels ,trudy woud join Uncle Hans for lunch. Unfortunatly, every Tuesday , Hans painted all the Kitchen chairs except one . So Trudy had to sit on Uncle Has's lap. This was also the day Uncle has woul clean the big mirror , and it was always on the opposite side of the kitchen table. Uncle hans was such a creature of habit. He loved to play little food games with Trudy. When they finished there lunch Trudy would go to visit her friend Carl Frankenmuller, a young sausage maker very close to Trudys age. She loved his sausage, it was always firm, tastie and Fresh. Carl enjoyed her visits, it was when he would show her his meat. He was proud of his meat, and so was Trudy. She loved to tell the other Sausage maiden of Donglefloggen how nice and firm and choice Herr Frankenmueller meat was. They never got to see his meat, it always went to the Sausage Gruppen Fuerer. He would then take to the Big citieslike Berlin.The Suasage Gruppen Fuerer was always trying to find out Carls secret to keeping his sausage firm and fresh. He alway wondered "Was ist ein secret engreediant. " He must trick Trudy into finding out and telling him.
As Trudy left the kitchen to visit Carl , she saw Uncle Hans run for "Das Hausen inns das bock aus ein Hausen. He must have eaten too much?
Ya das ist it, Uncle Hans Gulppen grossen grub.She must tell Uncle Hans to stop wearing Hids Railway beltbuckel , it always poked her when they had lunch on Tuesdays. As she walked through the village all the old men came to her and said good morgan frauline Trudy, virtious Sausage Maiden, Its always good to see you. It's also good to see you took our advice to save material and use less on your lovely new blouse. Ya ya you are ein gut frauline!When she arrived at Carls, she found him in tears. She ran to him, and through her arms around his head and held him close. She asked " Was ist mit uns, you big blibberschlaffen." He answered that he had been drafted into the Bavarian Field Kitchen Fusseleers.
This had to be the Work of Otto Grossenschnitzel the Sausage Gruppen Fuerer. He had many friends in such places , that could cause this to happen. Carl handed Trudy an Envelope, Grabbed her, near the table, she grabbed his meat and as the kissed his sausage popped. She ran back to "DAS Postal Wagon Kaupten" slammed the door behind her , and hit the controller.
When Heypaul came to , he was stretch across the bed in his dingy room. The room the Agency set up as a Safe house. In his had was an envelope. Scrawled across the front "Das Secret ingreediants mit das sausage for Grossenwurst,spleckenwurst und weiner inn das blanket
avid
Roswell is in New Mexico, not Nevada!!!!!
He must have confused the space alien crash site from the space alien storage site. An uderstandable mistake.
BTW - Did you know Sam Donaldson went to school in Roswell shortly after the reported mystery ship crash. Ever check out Sam's eybrows? Coincidence, or not?
We used to have a young lady who worked as a teller in the bank near my house. This was in the early 1970's, and this young lady had eyebrows that slanted upward at a 45 degree angle and always kept her hair combed over the tips of her ears. I wonder.......
isnt there another area 51 in arizona or las vegas or something like that ??
where is area 51 ?? new mexico ? arizona ? nevada ?? ever seen the vidieo game ??....
Area 51 is in Southern Nevada. The alleged 1947 UFO crash site is just north of Roswell, N.M.
The old Walker Air Force Base big hanger is being used by Nova to assemble RTS buses. The aliens have been gainfully employed since MCI open up the plant. The runway are still active as Boeing uses the former USAF base to test flight their new airplanes.
Several notable military brats born there includes John Denver and Demi Moore.
What's the deal with New Mexico? It's not new and it's not Mexico!
Unless you were the people in charge of selling tickets to the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta. They kept people from New Mexico from buying tickets designated for U.S. sales, and told them they would have to submit requests with the other international ticket buyers. To them, it WAS Mexico.
When people ask me why I love trains so much, I will now point them to this post.
Very good!
--Mark
there is no truth to a heypaul spy thriller
series...
i am about to sign a contract to star in "the
maurice gosfield story---life in the slow lane "...
i will be playing the role of pfc dwayne doberman,
just as soon as i can put on 100 pounds, it's an
ideal role for me since i dislike changing my
clothes and rarely shower...
hey avid reader... who are you?... you seem to have a subversive sense of humor... if you care to
identify yourself, e-mail we with info... please
mark in the subject area of the e-mail "6 7/8"
which was one of the 3 stooges prison numbers, to
help expedite the processing of your e-mail...
Wednesday March 29 9:52 PM ET
Utah Woman Killed by Commuter Train
SOUTH SALT LAKE, Utah (AP) - A woman rushing across the tracks to catch a commuter train was struck and killed by the train Wednesday morning.
Witnesses told police the woman had parked her car in a lot adjacent to the station and was hurrying to reach the center platform when the accident occurred.
The two-car, downtown-bound train was pulling into the station when Delores Betenes, 63, was killed.
South Salt Lake police said no one else was hurt. Light rail service was temporary halted while police investigated, and trains were rerouted.
For those of you who are members of the New York Division of the ERA, I encourage you to read the article in this month's The Bulletinon the routing options for the LIRR to Grand Central Terminal, as part of the East Side Access project. It is on pages 17-19, and authored by NYC-based transportation planner Subutay Musluoglu.
No matter which option is selected, the construction is going to be fascinating to watch (currently scheduled to begin in 2002).
If you're not an NYD/ERA member, I'll bet if you join up now they'll send you the April edition so you can read it! You can contact them at P.O. Box 3001, NY, NY 10008.
Yes, Todd .. good article, and it had a few pictures of the 63rd St tunnel's LIRR level.
--Mark
Tuesday March 28, 2:01 pm Eastern Time
Bombardier shuts Belgian plant, workers stage sit-in
BRUSSELS, March 28 (Reuters) - Canadian engineering firm Bombardier said on Tuesday it was closing one of its two Belgian sites due to overcapacity in the European railway industry, sparking an employee sit-in.
Bombardier said it would shut down its factory in Manage, southern Belgium, which made rail wagons and employed 397 staff.
``The European ferrous metal industry has been confronted for many years by an overcapacity which caused a restructuring of this industry and a strong decline in prices,'' Bombardier told the Belga news agency.
Bombardier has a second plant in Bruges, employing 767 people, making rail wagons, underground trains and trams.
Southern Belgian regional government head Elio Di Rupo joined union chiefs in urging Bombardier to reconsider its decision.
DOES ANYONE PRESENTLY KNOW WHERE THE R110'S ARE RUNNING IN PASSENGER SERVICE AND IF POSSIBLE CAN YOU GIVE ME SPECIFIC DETAILS( EXAMPLE: LINE, TIME, DAY )?
THANKS
DAN
On The C Line effective like a day ago, on the 9:56 out of 168th Street, the 11:23 out of Euclid Avenue
I don't know if this is every day, but this is the thrid time I've caught the R-110B in this time slot.
R142 Boi 2K
When can I expect the R-110B to arrive at Canal St Station going towards 168th from Euclid? Will 12:15 be too late?
Does the R-110B run on weekends?
Thanks!
Nick
When I rode it on the 11:23 out of Euclid, We got to 168th at 12:43pm. To be safe get to canal, going northbound at 12:00pm, Just to be safe!
I don't know about weekend R110B service on the "C"!
R142 Boi 2K
Does this train only make one trip a day?
Yes one trip everyday, suppose!
R142 Boi 2K
Could that qualify as the longest shuttle?
avid
Rode on the R110B's yesterday. It was the 10:06 out of 168th Street. (The sign above the end route sign said "C1001.") I got on the train at 59th Street and rode it all the way to Euclid Avenue. I even made some recordings. The Voice is alive and well. It said "It is 11 O'clock" after the train left Utica Avenue, and said "This is the last stop on this train. Everyone please leave the train." twice as the train approached Euclid Avenue. However, station announcements were being made the old-fashioned way. There was an old advertisement in Car #3005. A kid drinking something from a straw. Three pointers pointintg to the kid, the straw, and the drink in the cup. At the other end of the pointers, "YOU," "SHUTTLE BUS," "IKEA." (How old is that ad?)
I also recorded the doorbell while aboard Car #3002 (The only car to have audible doorbells). I recorded the trip from 59th Street to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, then recordings at 11:00, and between Shepherd Avenue and Euclid Avenue. Between Spring and Canal Strets, someone asked "Are you testing to see that everything's working properly?" I think he was thinking that I had the microphone out, and headphones over my ears. He must be listening for something wrong.
I got on a Manhattan-bound A train at Euclid Avenue. Just as it was about to leave, I saw the R-110B's ready to make the return trip to 168th Street.
I will put the recordings up on my web site around 12:00 today. I will post a message here with a link to the web site. The sounds will be there.
The site's up! Check it out!
The site's up! Check it out!
Click here to go.
Nice Site,
I gave you a link from my site, TransiTALK at http://street.to/transitalk, the link is placed on our Transit Interrealted Links Page.
R142 Boi 2K
I ride the R/44's alot and the R/46's almost as much. Now i as you, has anyone ever wondered who designed the arm rests next to the windows? If you did not have an upper arm , they might be comfortable,.
the R/46 was a tad better, but not in your comfort zone.
The next Peeve about the R/44's is the carbon steel band that was once painted Blue. It's current color , silver , reminds me of DUCT TAPE. I think snow white would look better, or Bus stop yellow or a checkerboard pattern, but the Duct Tape look is Yuickie!
Next peeve , the color of the benches in the R/32,R/38,R/40 and R/40M's. Why weren't they pastel color coordinated with the apricot,orange and tangereen line the R/44,R/46 and R/68's?
Dark grey , whats that all about?
As a Railfan and a steady rider my moode must be lifted.
avid.
The benches on the R-32 to R-42 were color coordinated to the trains' original blue-toned colors. They just didn't bother to paint the bench seats the way they did on the R-26/R-28s.
Grey was the TA's preferred fiberglass color in the period from 1962-69 on both subways and buses. Before that, they tried red plastic seats (with little indentations) on a couple of R-17s, then went with the pink seats on the R-26 through R-30 trains, and opted for lime green plastic bucket seats on the last (9000 series) of the old-style GM buses and the first few thousand of the fishbowls.
I think they should stick with the "autumn leaves" seat color scheme in the R44-46 and later cars. The grey benches remind one of prison, heavy industry, freight transportation, and other dehumnaizing environments for the lesser folks.
I'd love to see them go back to those great red padded seats that occassionally showed up in the R-1/9s, but as a realist, unless the MTA came up with some non-slashable material (or booby trapped the seats if they were slashed), that's not going to happen, so the R-44/R-46 design is the best looking and most comfortable for now.
04/06/2000
(or booby trapped the seats if they were slashed)
You mean like those exploding bags of money the bank robbers get?
TO DYE FOR?
Bill Newkirk
Rim shot!!!
Why did the MTA get rid of all the blue! No blue-silver paint scheme on the R-26 - R-36! No blue doors on R-32s! No blue stripe on R-44/46s! That's why we're stuck with light blue-gray stripes on R-44s.
They decided (rightly) that they didn't need to paint things that needed no painting, like stainless steel. Somehow, the doors on the redbirds are painted, but I suspect it's because they spray-paint the cars, and just mask the windows. Those doors, I believe, are stainless.
And since the perception of transit is that it's 'dirty', a nice, shiny stainless train attracts riders.
Oh, on Magnetic Schedule night at Shea (opening day) it was discovered that the doors on the redbirds are non-magnetic, while other metal components were.
-Hank
I for one love colors, and the charcoal grey benches in the GOH'd equipment simply stinks. All they did was enamel over the original aqua blue. You can see it where the paint has worn off. Poor choice of color, but it hides the dirt.
I'd have had different sets of R44/R46 cars with different colored seats, like they did on the LIRR M-1s when they were new.
LIRR original seat colors:
variation 1: Brown and black only (the original 9000 series cars)
variation 2: Brown, olive green and black (9100s, some 9200s)
variation 3: Orange, red and charcoal grey (some 9400s)
variation 4: Aqua, yellow, bone and black (9500s and 9600s)
variation 5: Bone, red, charcoal grey (all others, all M-3s when new)
Please correct me if I'm in error on the above since I am relying on 25-year-old memories.
Wayne
04/06/2000
And what made it interesting was when top or bottom cushions of totally different color was thrown in. No match?, BIG DEAL ! Since this is the LIRR, perfection don't count!
Bill Newkirk
JERUSALEM (AP) - When Edith Tzirer straggled out of a liberated Nazi concentration camp in 1945, her lungs were so ravaged by tuberculosis, she was too weak to walk.
Her protector was a handsome young stranger who gave her a piece of bread and a cup of tea on that cold January day outside Krakow, Poland. And then he carried the 14-year-old girl two miles from the train station where he found her.
Tzirer wept Thursday as she reintroduced herself to the man she says comforted her more than a half-century ago - Pope John Paul II.
``I was a little girl again,'' said Tzirer, 69, who now lives in Israel. ``It was 50 years ago, and everything that happened then came back now.''
Tzirer was one of six Holocaust survivors who formally greeted the pope during his poignant visit Thursday to Yad Vashem, Israel's Holocaust memorial on a hilltop on the western edge of Jerusalem.
The pontiff himself can't recall the long-ago day or the teenage girl of half a century past.
``The pope does not dismiss her story out of hand. But he can't remember the details,'' said Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said. ``She is quite specific. The pope says it is 'quite possible,' because he was in the area at that time.''
For Tzirer, that day in Poland is still as vivid as if it were yesterday. She says she was shocked in 1978 when she saw a picture of her old savior, Karol Wojtyla, in a French magazine, and learned he had just become the pope.
``He was strong and tall, an athlete,'' Tzirer said in an interview with Israeli television. ``I asked myself, why me? Why?''
Regardless of what transpired on that day 55 years ago, the pope and the gray-haired survivors were filled with emotion that transcended the politics and diplomacy of Thursday's remembrance. More than a half-century ago, they were surrounded by the terrible Nazi slaughter commemorated at the memorial by an eternal flame that burns in memory of the 6 million who died.
``I remember my Jewish friends and neighbors, some of whom perished, while others survived,'' said the pope. He met Thursday with several Jewish boyhood friends who grew up with him in Wadowice, Poland, but now live in Israel.
The pope was 19 when the Nazis invaded his homeland in 1939, and he witnessed the persecution of Jews throughout the war years. Wadowice's 2,000 Jews disappeared. Some managed to flee, but others were deported to Nazi camps and died there.
There is no trace of Jewish life in Wadowice now, and Thursday's reunion was the first time most of the survivors have seen the pope since those terrible days.
The wartime experience has strongly influenced John Paul's 22-year papacy, and Jewish leaders say no other pope has done as much to overcome the historical friction between Roman Catholics and Jews.
``This is a turning point for Jews and Christians,'' said Eli Zborowski, another of the Holocaust survivors who greeted the pope.
Zborowski, a Polish native who now lives in New York, said he would have liked the pope to apologize Thursday for the church's silence during the Holocaust. But he said the pontiff's decision to speak at Yad Vashem was still momentous.
``What he did is a very positive thing that will change history,'' Zborowski said.
Even for Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, the ceremony was deeply personal. Addressing the pontiff, Barak paid tribute to his grandparents, who perished in the Treblinka death camp in Nazi-occupied Poland.
``When my grandparents, Elka and Shmuel Godin, mounted the death trains ... near their home in Warsaw, headed toward their fate at Treblinka - the fate of 3 million Jews in your homeland - you were there and you remembered,'' he said.
A while back some one had posted up that there were going to be changes occring to the white plains and dyre lines. the 2 and 5 from 241st and 238th will run express between east 180th and 3rd aves in the Bronx while the 5 from dyre will run the local. My concern is that there will be less service on the 2 now that it is an express. This will affect the ENIRE LINE all the way to brookyn. I don't get it. Isn't any way to do this with out pulling service off the 2?? And the explaination for it is that it allows the 2 to not wait for the 5 to cross and enter the station. now why is this sugeesstion not mentioned for the Brookyln part why not have the 5 run to new lots and make the 2 local stops before switching over and the 4 run from utica the way that it is??? this would allow the local to not get held up all the times since the 3 would be on local with the 2. Could someone please explain this in full detail because i really don't get this at all. Thanks.
I don't know about that idea. That makes no sense, It would be a lot better if the 5 became a all day Bronx-Thru Express, something like what the 7 is doing. Make the 2 Express, I don't about that!
R142 Boi 2K
At no time did I say ANYTHING about a cut in service on the 2. Currently, southbound 2 trains have FOUR constricting points during the AM rush - E. 180 St, South of Jackson Ave, North of 135 St and Franklin Ave. There is not much that can be done aboutthe junction with the 3 north of 135 St. As long as there is a Bronx thru-express, there will be the occasional delay at Jackson Ave for some train. If the 2 and 3 both ran to Flatbush while the 4 and 5 ran to Utica/ New Lots, the crowd changing trains at Franklin would overwhelm the station. Therefore, in order to give some help to the 2, the decision was made to swap thru-express service with the 5.
This is to inform those who may be interested in my unique problem. There are three computers in my classroom. One is mine and the other two are for my students. The problem is I can't get on Subtalk on my computer for some mysterious reason, but can get on with the other two. I can get on NYCSUBWAY.ORG and all its programs and parts but not Subtalk. To me that makes my computer obsolete because without Subtalk I'm a man with no hands and legs. I'm hoping Big Dave can solve this problem, but if this message goes through at least I know I can still communicate with you. And yes, my daughter at home is letting me use her computer that I bought for her. She is leaving for a trip to Philadelphia in two weeks, and she needs some spending money. I'm sure you guys out there know what I mean.
I'm still not clear why you think it's my problem when you can clearly see that it works from 2 of your 3 computers. I strongly suspect the problem has got something to do with your broken computer. I really don't have the time to track down these phantom problems.
It's not your problem but I thought you might be able to help. I will try to get someone tech people here to check my computer. For a time I didn't get on this one after I posted a message. I'll keep plugging away.
Did you ever write anything that got Dave Pirmann angry? I once did and he bared me from posting from that computer. I was however able to read messages. Perhaps you or someone else did exactly that. You say others have access to that computer. Maybe someone saw the page open and wanted to get you in trouble
Could be. But I don't recall having anything nasty going on with Dave. If there was I would expect him to be up front with me because I have no use at all for a phony or someone who won;t come clean. That other matter of the page being open, that might fly. I have left my room with this website on. Makes for an interesting theory.
Have you had anyone check the time out setting on the computer? I've noticed that SubTalk has slowed down recently. (Come to think of it, the solution will depend on what happens when you try to go to the message index. If you are getting a "no response" message from your browser, it's probably a time out problem. If, on the other hand, nothing at all is happening and the computer just sits there staring at you without any error messages appearing, you may simply not be waiting long enough for Dave's overloaded system to catch up with itself.)
What kind/how old is your machine? pentium/486/386? Modem? 56K/33K/28K/9.8K?
I'm back on for the past three days. I just hope the worst is over. I have come to the conclusion that something was amiss; I just don;t know what. My machine is two years old, a Dell with a pentium processor designed for Microsoft Windows 95.
It's a school. It's most likely hooked to a T1 line though a LAN.
Assuming your school has a firewall, compare the configuration of a machien that gets through with the one that is causing you difficulty. Perhaps something is preventing cgi scripts from executing on the problem computer.
--Mark
I'm back on Mark, though I don;t know for how long. I hope the problem is ended. It is quite a mystery. I just happened to click and all of a sudden I was on. Who knows for how long? And one other thing, I keep getting a duplicate submission when I know I only click down once. I wonder what that duplicate submission is all about.
Fred,
Could someone have reset the browser's pref's (when you were not around) to reject cookies??
My wife is also a teacher, and twice her students (mostly 7th & 8th) have fooled with either machine. Due to this she will not let students use her personal laptop.
As to the duplicate posts, check the mouse settings - could be set too sensitive. (possible student foolery?)
Also check your browser's cache settings. Re: duplicates, do you have this problem with anything else coming up twice? If so, you may have a hardware problem in your keyboard or mouse. If it's only this one thing (duplicate postings), beats me.
[Perhaps something is preventing cgi scripts from executing on the problem computer. ]
CGI executes on the server.
Arti
Found this site where you can have all the fun you want in learning how to crash trains and dropping runs
http://www.signalcc.com/
If you play with "Train Dispatcher" from Signal Computer Consultants (whose website the link goes to), you can NOT "crash" trains. The program won't allow it.
But you can surely "drop" or "miss" a schedule.
--http://www.napanet.net/~jlbaker
There's this guy in a bar, just looking at his drink. He stays like that for
half-an-hour. Then, this big trouble-making truck driver steps next to him,
takes the drink from the guy, and just drinks it all down.
The poor man starts crying. The truck driver says: "Come on man, I was just
joking. Here, I'll buy you another drink. I just can't see a man crying."
"No, it's not that. This day is the worst of my life. First, I fall asleep, and
I go late to my office. My boss, outrageous, fires me. When I leave the
building, to my car, I found out it
was stolen. The police, they say they can do nothing. I get a cab to return
home, and when I leave it, I remember I left my wallet and credit cards there.
The cab driver just drives
away. I go home, and when I get there, I find my wife in bed with the gardener.
I leave home, and come to this bar. And just when I was thinking about putting
an end to my life, you
show up and drink my poison..."
Rim shot!
This was back in the mid to late 1980's. And the B & D on the 6th ave line went as far as 34th street. Now, my question is, what cars were used on those lines,. the 6th av line. I know the B used the R-40, but what about the D? It looked like an R-44 or R-46 without a closing door chime. Anybody remember? tanx :)
What you mentioned are the R40M and R42 cars.
Chaohwa
The northern D route used the R42. The northern B route shared the R42's assigned to the K. The southern B used the R40 slant/R27-30, and the occasional R16, until early 1987, when the southern B was almost exclusivly R40 slant. The southern D used a similiar smorgasbord of R40/R42/R32 until the R68's starting replacing them in late 86/early 87.
Tanx for the info guys, really appreciate it.
I remember very well when the B and D were only known as the West End and Brighton Expresses. The terminals were Times Square, 42nd Street and Coney Island's Stillwell Avenue. What was strange was when they reached 42nd Street they just didn;t reverse course but went a short distance beyond 42nd where they then changed course and re-entered the station. We always used to guess which train would arrive first and make bets on it. The usual sequence was the Brighton, West End and Sea Beach with the West End always between the other two. When we went to our grandparents' houses (both sides of the family), my parents would always hope the Sea Beach came first because if it didn;t, we'd have to wait another train or two for it, or take whichever train came first and have a scene on board because their bratty son would wail for the Sea Beach. After awhile, my parents found it was easier to wait for the Sea Beach. They knew they had a fanatic son even when he was seven or eight.
yes.... and remember not just the big railfan windows but the large huge SIDE WINDOWS !! 1956-1959.. for me !
( thats what i was saying about the R-142s ! ).......
yes.... and remember not just the big railfan windows but the large huge SIDE WINDOWS !! 1956-1959.. for me !
( thats what i was saying about the R-142s ! ).......dont believe me ? visit the subway museum and compare !
All:
I did some work this morning on implementing basic killfiles. For those of you who don't know what that is, essentially it is a list of posters from whom you do not wish to see any posts. When viewing the message index or followup threads, these people's posts will not be listed.
To edit your killfile, click the Change Display Style link on the Message Index page for each Talk. (Each Talk has a separate killfile because each Talk has a separate cookie to hold the data-- to make a global cookie would be a PITA at this point.)
The entries in the killfile field should be poster's handles exactly as they appear in their posts one per line. Cut and paste is your best bet to get it right. Capital letters and punctuation/spacing are critical, including extra spaces at the end of the lines, so be careful. (And you all thought that the username/password system really didn't have any other useful benefits.) I didn't hard-code a limit to how many people you could killfile but there may be some inherent limit to the length of a cookie.
I didn't try all the possible combinations of threading/chronological, forward/reverse so it may not work for certain combinations. I tried it with Message Index set to Chronological. The usual "it works for me" mantra applies, if it doesn't work for you, check the Chronological format first, and if it works then, drop me a line and give me specifics on your original message display parameters. But before you send me a message be sure you've double checked the spelling/spacing of the handles on your list.
And remember, if you read SubTalk from different computers, the cookie doesn't follow you. You'll have to reinitialize your killfile list from each computer that you read SubTalk from. This is because cookies are stored in your browser's configuration and not here on my server...
-Dave
It worked fine for me - salaamallah has been *plonked*!!!
Thanks, Dave.
Instead of being rude, why don't you just keep who you do a killfile on to yourself?
i dont think so !! by the way can any one answer the r-142 side window question with proff ?
This is worth the wait...
The window is at the right side of this image. Notice the cable running from the window, taped to the side of car 6301 towards the bottom. If the side window couldn't open, they wouldn't be able to run the cable down the side of the car the way it is. The side windows CAN open up. The only side windows that can't open are the windows that have the side destination signs. FINAL ANSWER!
Bless you, my son.
a hasty quick not level and probably robbed from some other gif or jpeg that someone else took etc....
picture was posted the photography was so-so.! etc...... you know even on money trains and work cars...
when the side passenger doors open fresh air can finally come in after the AC has failed !!
my question still is why didnt you take this picture yourself of the side-passenger-windows ??
and show how the riding passenger public can open and or close them up for fresh air when the A.C. fails ??
so you show the pasenger doors !! so what ?? ( oh well )..... still cant get a answer with proff !!
i want to move on to some other on topic subject you all flunked this one !! forget it and lets drop it !!
We flunked NOTHING, it was you that flunked.
The killfile still shows messages when they are in a thread (not a direct response), you can open the message two levels up and see it.
While I believe the current impostion of a killfile is good, I also think that there should be an option to kill everything downthread some levels. I know that might be difficult, so what we have now is good.
a hasty quick not level and probably robbed from some other gif or jpeg that someone else took etc....
You're kidding, right?
Did you scroll the picture to the right to see it in its entirety? That passenger window is the same type as the R-62's passenger window (and the R-68, R-46, R-44, R-42, R-40, R-36WF, R-38GOH and R-32GOH to name a few.) They all open at the top inwards.
--Mark
are you sure ( question ) and have you put your hands on this yet ?? ok maybe it looks like a small window at the top
but are you sure it is not sealed shut ?? now if you can open it and have with your own hands .............
then i guess the so called TCCB and R-142 clubs win !! i like a challenge even if i lose ( this time )... thanks !!
its not a big deal to me !! it is just like these sick buildings that you cant open up a window for fresh air ! ( example )
thank you for your post if you can open up that side window on that r-142 with your own hands,.......you win !!!! ...fair enough ?..!!....
Just wait until they enter passenger service. Maybe someone will get a shot of the side window open.
Take a look at this picture of 7215: http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142a-7215.jpg
The first window is open.
Thanks for pointing that out, Mark - you are absolutely correct, I can see part of the hinge mechanism on the right-hand side of the window that would only be visible when the window is open.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i asked to kill this thread please !
Oh look at that the window IS open.
HERE'S THE PROOF!!
Thank you,
Andee
my closing point is that the museum trains had real side windows etc......... END THIS THREAD !!
How do we know thats an R-142?
Yes, I guess it could really be a cleverly disguised photo of an R-16, with all the carbon steel body around the car number plaque covered over through careful use of the Photoshop editing tools :)
You'd have to be pretty crispy to not know that a R142, look a the R142 ONLY Red Stripe! and the testing wires.
R142 Boi 2K
B division cars, like the R16, CAN'T run on A Division lines! The picture was taken at the Gun Hill Road station on the Dyre Avenue (5) line. I know because I was the one pressing the shutter button. The R16s had side windows like the ones you see on the R26 through 36 (Mainline) cars, but the older style. The window in my picture is like the ones on the R62.
My R-16 comment was sarcasm, based on the Oliver Stone-like paranoia some people have shown towards believing anything about the R-142s.
Besides, they also didn't have the little red round emergency glass over the main window (sarcasm again)...
I am emailing it to you however to keep it private
Uh, thanks, but you don't need to post here to tell me to check my email.
-dave
Thank you, Dave. It works like a charm. No more looking at posts bt our favorite LA whipping boy.
Thank you for continuing to make nycsubway.org one the the best rail web sites around.
Yes. I'm able to read the board without Alka-Seltzer!
-Hank
Is having the killfile more reasonable than banning anyone from the board? I would like to know. Sounds like free speech isn't being infringed upon, regardless of how absurd someone's statements may seem. Being banned might bring up issues of free speech if someone cries foul.
Whatever the case maybe, hang in there and don't let anyone here get to you.
I haven't used the killfile yet, but we'll see.
-Stef
Yep, it is better. I did however find a loophole: Messages still appear if they are not the direct response to a message you are looking at, but are in the thread. Even with that, it lets me open all the messages (so they appear purple) without having to grip a stress ball.
I really don't see the need for it as the name of the poster is listed on each post so one could make the decision whether to click or not. If one uses it it could cause some confusion as you could still click on replies to the killfile subject (I assume) and you wouldn't know what the reply is talking about.
Also I'd bet the pigs person that originally asked for the killfile will still monitor SalaamAllah's posts since he always did before when he had the choice to skip 'em.
Jeffrey, I tend to agree with you. It seems to me that some of our clients here are among those that have no channel buttons on their TV remotes, etc. I don't know why it's so hard to ignore those you don't agree with or particularly like... it's one of those human nature things I guess. Anyway, the killfile is there to use it if you want it, or not use it if you don't want to. If it keeps some posters around who are normally decent contributors it's worth the effort to code it.
Thank you, Dave. The problem as whole isn't that I'm not trying to ignore certain posts, but the fact that they seem to be everywhere, no matter the topic. There's literally no way to avoid them. Additionally, several pieces of information have come from the rebuttal posts, only to run into the same blockhead.
-Hank
I tend to think some of the guys have fun harassing our resident subway photographer. He has never been as vicious as some of his detractors and sometimes I think he might be a little autistic, especially when he repeats the same thing over and over. Anyway his too worst detractors are teens and Salaam is in his 50's. If anything there should be some respect in that regard.
Who are they? I'm no teen.
-Hank
Who's the second one then?
[I tend to think some of the guys have fun harassing our resident subway photographer. He has never been as vicious as some of his detractors and sometimes I think he might be a little autistic, especially when he repeats the same thing over and over. Anyway his too worst detractors are teens and Salaam is in his 50's. If anything there should be some respect in that regard.]
Well, I enjoyed ragging on the schmuck, before killfiling him, and I'm considerably closer to my 50's than to my teen years.
I'm certainly not an expert in this regard, but I don't believe his absurd repetitive posts are something related to autism. He's just an idiot.
I'm in my 50's, and I started the PEBCAK comment, since that seems to describe the problem better than anything else. I sent him a nicely worded e-mail describing a way to reduce\eliminate the worst features of his posts. What came back to my box? An e-mail that looked and read exactly like what he puts in his posts. And the reply had nothing about my nice suggestion.
I ragged on him, too, and usually the rag got a standard, not-to-the-point reply. Dave's killfile was welcome because it has me avoid him and keeps me focused on real discussions.
Nobody, not Pigs or robert johnson has irritated me as much as our LA problem. So, no more salaamallah for me.
I think that the entire cause of my irritating others has to do with the LA problem. I don't post that pigs taking over crap anymore, do I?
salaam and many posters response to him have helped me see something very interesting here...
salaam certainly goes on and on about things that he feels strongly about...
well from my view of this message board, many of you when the opportunity presents itself go on and on about your special issues:
1) the poor
2) limousine liberals
3) democrats
4) unions
salaam may be repetetive, but usually there is no meanness behind his words...
on the other hand, people have spoken here about social issues with a meanness and racism that is
disturbing to read, especially when it is accompanied by a smugness and righteousness that comes from the comfortable
whereas i previously thought that many of you were racist, i think i will accept peter's analysis of salaam: you are a bunch of schmucks and idiots...
as well as being terminally boring
i intend to engage the ultimate killfile... i will no longer be part of this scene...
What bothers me is when people claim racism when it clearly doesn't exist (not that racism doesn't exist at all). Give us an example of a racist posting as opposed to a person who happens to be white criticizing a person who happens to be black or vice-versa?
Say it ain't so heypaul.....
While I agree with some of your observations, bare in mind that if we were to meet some of the posters who you associate with 'negative' postings, it's possible (just possible) you might find them amenible and quite sociable as people.
Paul, please don't judge everyone here 100% on how and what they might post about. Give this place another chance.
Your company here is certainly appreciated by a good number of SubTalkers.
Doug aka BMTman
Paul, you are right in a way. Some of the most disturbing posts I've read on this board has been when someone has gotten killed doing something not so smart such as subway surfing or crossing through railroad crossing gates. Half the people on the board posts with a smugness that these people definitely deserved death and showed very little or no compassion or sympathy. The worst was when that poor lady in her 50's got hit by a train in Bethpage a few months back. People were posting with such a hatred and a vengence against her calling her stupid and alot of other things. I thought the postings were infantile. Who here hasn't done some stupid things??
I also think that the criticism of the Bethpage crossing woman was a bit harsh, but the subway surfers deserved theirs. One could have thought the gates malfunctioned because one saw no train coming, but the "surfers" just deserved their Darwin awards*.
*Darwin didn't invent the statement "Survival of the fittest"
Paul, let me suggest that you do as I do - read what pleases you, ignore what doesn't, and post as it pleases you to do so. I post less frequently than I once did, but that's because I find that I have less to say lately that hasn't been said before, either by myself or someone else. But I'm not going away, at least not yet, and I would hope that you would stay around too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think we may have exhausted the topic of the subway, at least until something new happens.
Don't go. The growing ledgend and myth of the "Life and Exciting Times of Heypaul would a shallow echo, a dimming shadow, a lost treasure of everydayness. The common man needs a common man hero. With out you we will not get Tom Seleck to consider signing on for" Revenge of the Gruppen Kitchen Fusseleers" or "Sausage Troops from Das Zipplin,s . You will stunt a budding mindless humor.
avid
i dont blame you heypaul i feel the same! especially after the racist hate cowards who send me e mail !
Maybe you shouldn't flood people's Inboxes with duplicate e-mails.
what are you posting about ?? i dont do that !!
As Voltaire said, "Does a book displease you? Refute it. Does it bore you? Don't read it."
Replace book with post, of course.
In that case, I like Voltaire.. The post DOES displease me, so I refute it. Unfortunately, the same seems to be true for the original poster. Except instead of refuteing, he repeats the original arguement, no matter the facts presented nor the astounding odds against him.
-Hank
As you say it's just as easy to tune out whoever you want to on these boards. But some people post so many times a day with so much inanity and repetition that just seeing their handle clutters up the board. The killfile option is a good idea. And maybe if certain persons are "killed" by many other users they will get the hint by the lack of response to their postings and go back into their basements and hide, hopefully with their modems unplugged. Anything that helps maintain reasonable discourse and disagreements here is a good idea.
why do you insist on flaning me by name ?
Thank you!!!
Some people seem to only post garbage (not saying names) and it will make it easier to find on topic posts.
Thanks, again!
Thank you very much for your efforts, Dave!
All I had to do is killfile THREE people (and I used the term loosely) and 99.99% of the pure, unadulterated bullpuckey has disappeared into this air!!!
Hopefully theose three won't resort to using sneaky, alternate e-mails to obtain new posting handles. (Of course, they way they've acted to gain killfile status, it won't take them long to "show their colors" so to speak.)
I did some work this morning on implementing basic killfiles. For those of you who don't know what that is, essentially it is a list of posters from whom you do not wish to see any posts. When viewing the message index or followup threads, these people's posts will not be listed.
The killfile works perfectly for me on the main message index. However, it doesn't seem to work at all on the thread response lists attached to individual messages.
Can you look into this?
Thanks.
CH.
It takes some fine tuning. As of this writing, they don't appear in the responses, but if the post you're reading was a reply, you get to see what it was a reply to, which is fine with me.
-Hank
I LIKE IT!
Good show, Dave!
Wayne
Dave,
Would it be too much work if you also added support to killfile by e-mail address?
Thanks in advance!
Nick
What's the point? People are not required to post their email address. Handles show up by default and in fact since people cannot arbitrarily change them it should be sufficient to block with.
it means that rather than being kicked off subtalk or a chatroom ...... ( for example )..........
any subtalker becomes non visable to no-one.......... finally everybody wipes each other out and the board
goes blank and wipes out and crashes !! ...................????..........!!!!.............................?
No. Some people do post on-topic things that are enjoyable to read. Those people won't be in the killfiles and as long as those people post cleanly, there will still be a message or two to read.
i have seen a lot of off topic posts !!....etc....and they were not clean either !! enjoyable ?? thats the real question !!...
For what it's worth, I asked during the SubTalk chat whether people were using the killfiles. No one said they were; I got about four or five "no"'s and "no ways".
-Dave
Well, *I* am using them -- and there are THREE particular people I have added to the killfile list. And believe me, since I did, I can read SubTalk witout 99% of the manure. It's nice to be able to come in here and not see 40 off-topic rant/rave posts from one particular poster, and 20 more from another who posted some rather inane stuff that I just couldn't waste time trying to sift through.
Maybe nobody else wants to admit using them publicly.
I added 2 names.
-Hank
I have one name on my killfile list - Salaamallah.
i have one name on my killfile peter rosa !
Likewise.
Me, too.
I have one on my list ....p...rosa .!!
That's one of them. You can guess the other.
-Hank
you are one of those people..........too !! ( no guess who the other one is......... want a hint ? )...............
I don't know that I'll want to use a killfile unless one person was rally garbaging up the board.
If there were a "threadkill" I'd probably use that, just to cut out threads I wasn't interested in or that have meagposts of extraneous matter.
Also might cut down on bandwidth usage. I don't know if that's a big deal technically.
I killed one person. Ever since, all the garbage on the board is gone and it takes less time to find intresting posts since I don't have so much garbage in the way.
I left the chat before you asked that but I would have said yes, I am using the killfile.
I use the killfile on my home computer, but don't use it at work. Subtalk seems a lot more tranquil at home :-)
I am
Arti
I'm not. I figure that I can read the handle and decide.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not using it myself.
They were called SubTalk Live before they became ChatHam Square.
The new chats vary. I prefer the off topic conversations, but only because there is too much bus chat, or at least that's my perception.
Other than that, I see it as a great way to know the other SubTalkers.
When I get bored, I usually leave the window open if I'm doing something else, otherwise, I come back later (File->Create Shortcut).
Now I have no problem with the Census, but my university and possibly the federal govt. is trying to scam students. My school is trying to get all the students to fill out their census forms as if they lived HERE instead of their home town. Excuse me but I don't vote in local Middletown elections, I don't vote in CT state elections, I don't pay taxes here and I AM NOT A RESIDENT HERE. I am proud to be a New Jersey citizen. I consider myself to live in New Jersey and to go on learning vacations to Connecticut. Why on earth would I want to send MY representation and MY federal $$ to CT? At most I would get to enjoy years worth of my "benifits" before I was shafted for another 7. The worst part is that most people are going to fall for it.
-It's your future, don't send it somewhere else!
i did not want to answer this off topic post but that is only ONE of the many reasons why i responded with a big
felt pen to the census 2000,1990,1980&1970 ...census....... with the only response as ( drop dead ) !! and we have never ever co-operated with the enumerators either !.. you see if only the senseless census - government would leave well enough alone and persons who do not trust giving out free personal information ( privacy invasions )..etc...!!!!.. i meet people everyday who didnt fill this stuff out and i agree with them 100% none of us co-operated !! ha!! ha!ha!!
And they would get it right if ( government) would do it right !! finally this will be the lowest census count ever 40%!!
it should have been "0" .....ZERO...!! ......I love it how they lie to us and tell us how mass rail transit will be improved !!
like how the myth of public transit in los angeles........ new york, new jersey , count your blessings !! ......
It isn't a scam -- the issue is where are you on April 1. New Jersey hates this, because so many Jersey residents go to college elsewhere. It doesn't help NYC either, because so many of its residents are, well, upstate. The college thing is also one of the reasons that affluent White people get counted twice. The school counts the kids in the dorms, but their parents put them down also. Second homes are another reason.
As for not responding to the forms, it appears to be a Black Thang. A map of response rates by census tract looks the same as percent Black by tract. It isn't income or eduation -- middle income Black neighbhoods are low too. Hell I walked around very pleasant Black neighborhoods counting doorbells, and everyone seemed happy to see me and knew the census was coming. These same places have response rates in the 20s so far.
The Latinos are filling them out. So are many of the Asians. Not Afro-Americans. The question is, when NYC loses money due to another undercount, who will be made to suffer?
[It isn't a scam -- the issue is where are you on April 1. New Jersey hates this, because so many Jersey residents go to college
elsewhere. It doesn't help NYC either, because so many of its residents are, well, upstate.]
At first I didn't realize what you meant by "upstate." Then it dawned on me :-)
Well I have already been counted on my form at home and it has been sent in. Is there any way to stop the school from reporting me when I don't fill out the form they gave me?
I don't think there is any way to do it. You'll be counted in Connecticut, which means you'll be counted twice while the poor get counted not at all -- just the way the Republicans planned it.
THIS STINKS! THIS IS TOTAL BS! Wait, they just gave me a census form. If I junk it how could they then go and count me besides sending around a person to whom I would explain I have already been counted. If they are just going to send their own records into the census, why send out the forms in the foist place.
republicans-democrats cut food stamps to the needy etc?!! whats the difference between the two parties ??
i voted for ralph nader ! and.... you will be suprised how many people in the east coast who refuse the census !
You voted for Nader? Didn't you one say you once had a corvair? (I might be wrong) Well Ralph Nader got famous crucifying the Corvair in his book "Unsafe At Any Speed". And I loved Chevy's version of the VW Beetle with the engine in the back!!!
i owned a few corvairs and a vw van almost loaded the corvair engine into it !! the corvair van was my favorite !!
i did not agree with nader attacking general motors ONLY and letting ford and crysler and amc ..mispelled something @
and i did not think the corvair was not so bad as he said it was !! at least i never had all the problems you might have heard !!
most small cars today are smaller han a corvair !.... ok no seatbelts padded dash and no airbags !!.......!
i own the book you posted also !! the corvair was very backyard mechanic frendly and easy to work on !! not like the cars of today !
and automobiles had in my young years.. a lot of experence working on air colled vw engines and corvair engines as well !!!
contridiction in voting for nader...... yes but rather than let my ballot be a zero i held my nose and checked him !!
he said he was for rail and mass transit !! that was better than the other bozos out there !! ( not much to vote for ! )...
he said ( ralph nader ) that he ws in favor and would promote mass rail transit etc........
The Corvar was a great car and Ralph was wrong!!!!! The VW Beatle and Microbus were much mor likely to roll
I agree with you there !! thats why I owned a VW type 2 1971 (bus) and the corvair greebrier 1961- 1964 (bus )
those VW bugs were dangerous especially to head on accidents !!..
I thought the problem with the Corvair was that the wheels tended to fall off!
that will happen to any gm car or any other that you dont torque your wheels on !!
wheels fall of of other cars !
Well it would seem that Salaamallah's protest about not filling out the census may have borne fruit.
Since the deadline for filling out the census passed on April 1st, it appears that the U.S.
population stands at 13,462.
--Mark
I hope he and Trent Lott will be happy when Afro-Americans get screwed AGAIN.
black americans have been as you posted have been"screwed" since before the first senseless census !!
Non co-operation and refusing to do the census is the least anyone can do when government ( not just trent lott )
screws all of the american people with lies about how free information must just be'' handed over '' to the census ?
So on a non violent basis and like going on strike refusing and resisting is required and is the 40% who did answer SOME of thier census forms with one or two answers only and left 90% of the rest of the 2000 census form blank !! ......................... I wrote DROP DEAD on my form ! even when i was riding the subway in new york most people told me that they had limited and no intent in cooperating with
this invasion of privacies ( the long form especially ) &.... 60 % that are refusing resisting !! and the short form too !!
...
Well, I see your point about getting counted twice. On the other hand, while you are in college, you live a lot more in CT than in NJ. Jersey may be your home, but you are living in CT. And that is where you are using government services.
I understand why they use a uniform rule. They should make it very clear that parents are not to include college students living in dorms. But when people won't even bother to fill the form out, how would they get them to read directions...
While in the long run, the second avenue will be a good thing, what will happen to 2nd Avenue during construction? Are there any plans as to what to do on that major street?
I think that 1st and/or 3rd Avenue should become 2 way during construction paralel to road closures. To avoid bottlenecks on small streets, the traffic pattern would start at the first crosstown street before the construction (ie, road closed at 76th Street, the traffic pattern on 1st Avenue starts at 79th Street. If the closure ended at 90th Street, the 2 way pattern would go until 86th Street). There would be 2 southbound lanes on one or both avenues in those zones.
Also, where will the line end in downtown? Does anyone know where stops will be? Also, will new stations be built on the 7 at the UN or on 60th and 63rd at second for a connection to the 2nd Avenue Subway?
I read in the papers today that they expect it would take 16-25 years to build a full-length Second Ave. subway. I would think that in 25 years, they could build a subway from NYC to LA! Why could it possibly take so long? It seems to me that they should be able to build it in 8-10 years.
Bob, if you want the answer, come on up here to the land of The Big Dig :-)
Seriously, if the 2nd Ave. construction and the LIRR->GCT construction is going on at the same time, it could be quite the interesting times for NYC -- from both a construction and financial standpoint!
At least I'll be eligible for the Senior Citizen discount by then!
What they should consider doing is completing the project in stages. Build the "stubway" from 63rd to 125th Street and begin running it. Then complete 63rd to, say 42nd and open that, etc. Of course, then you run the risk of an adverse economy preventing the full completion at some point.
Also, didn't the Big Dig in Boston run into several topographical surprises (resulting in some novel engineering solutions) which have slowed it down (as well as fancy accounting). I thought Manhattan's underground was pretty well mapped out during the last century of Subway construction. There shouldn't be very many surprises there which would slow things down.
Hoo boy.
See the Big Dig Web site for all of the surprises.
[I read in the papers today that they expect it would take 16-25 years to build a full-length Second Ave. subway. I would think that in 25 years, they could build a subway from NYC to LA! Why could it possibly take so long? It seems to me that they should be able to build it in 8-10 years.]
It is ridiculous and inexcusable. And it absolutely would not happen in the private sector. Today's _Wall Street Journal_ had an article about General Motors' plans to build a new assembly plant in Lansing, one that will occupy a 1,500-acre site - almost two Central Parks - and is expected to cost more than one BILLION dollars. It didn't say how long construction is expected to take, but given that the plant will be used for assembly of new cars styles now under development, I'd say three, maybe four years, tops.
There would be no need to close 2nd ave to traffic. They could cover the street as they build like they did when they built 63 street tunnel or 3 sections of 2nd ave subway already built. Also according to second ave subway bids I have, yes the subway full length can be built in 6 years MAXIMUM
When construction began the first time in 1972, it was projected that the entire line would take 10 to 15 years to complete.
I haven't seen a proper schedule of how they'd plan to build the line, but the amount of time is going to depend on how much of the city you're willing to have torn up at once, and the amount to labor and equipment that you can afford to commit to the project. A realistic construction schedule can't be generated until there are more details about how the line would be built. Any time estimate you're seeing is pure speculation, probably based on other recent projects. This number probably includes the design lag, so I'd interpret it if it's approved for construction, it could be done in 16-25 years.
If you begin with a design and environmental impact statement in year 1, and have construction going on in year 20, you are going to have to redo the design and EIS in year 20, because conditions will have changed. This project will be done in a decade, beginning now, or not at all. It's the Second Avenue Scamway.
Larry, don't you know how to sing any other songs?
[I haven't seen a proper schedule of how they'd plan to build the line, but the amount of time is going to depend on how much of the city you're willing to have torn up at once, and the amount to labor and equipment that you can afford to commit to the project. A realistic construction schedule can't be generated until there are more details about how the line would be built. Any time estimate you're seeing is pure speculation, probably based on other recent projects. This number probably includes the design lag, so I'd interpret it if it's approved for construction, it could be done in 16-25 years.]
It does *not* take 16-25 years to build a subway in Manhattan. Five is more like it, working at a comfortable pace. And it makes absolutely no sense to tie up capital that long; they'd be better off not doing anything for 10-20 years, and building it then.
As far as tying up the capital for so long, that's one of the reasons that some cities/states do prolonged rehabilitation projects on functionally obsolete bridges. It's easier on the budget to spread, say 30 million over 10-15 years than 20 million over 5 years for new construction.
Yes, you probably could build a subway in Manhattan in 5 years, but you'd pay dearly for it, in terms of capital expenditures on the contracts themselves, and in terms of tearing up all of Second Avenue until the tunnel structure itself is completed. Most MTA contracts I've seen aren't big on incentives for finishing early (Williamsburg being the exception) and a tight schedule will mean much higher prices from the contractors.
Waiting longer makes things more difficult in many respects. Recently, material prices have kept pace with inflation, but if you were to see spikes in something like cement prices, you're old price estimates are out the window. Additionally, the construction labor pool is seriously short. For all of the talk about how much the unions make, they still have trouble attracting enough people for all of the positions that they can fill. This will mean higher costs for labor, and if the labor requirements are too large, i.e. you're trying to build too much at once, then you won't be able to find enough people at any price. Believe me, many large contractors are paying significant amounts of money to skilled workers to keep them around, above and beyond union scale.
I was under the impression that the plan was to bore most of the tunnel instead of cut and cover. Doesn't that eliminate the kind of surface surface disruption you are talking about? On the other hand, how many boring machines can be used in one tunnel? Anyone know how many feet per day one of these machines advances or how many feet long the whole project will be?
As for the paper work, you would think that the environmental advantages of the project (or of any new subway in a city of this size, for that matter) would be so obvious that Congress would be willing to pass a law exempting the project from most of the regulatory crap.
[As for the paper work, you would think that the environmental advantages of the project (or of any new subway in a city of this size, for that matter) would be so obvious that Congress would be willing to pass a law exempting the project from most of the regulatory crap.]
Hard to see how that could be done. For one thing, there are safety issues and environmental hazards (asbestos covered pipes, for example). For another, what do you do with all that landfill? For another, bureaucrats *never* cut out regulatory crap.
There are a bunch of reasons why you can't build a subway as fast as you could in 1904. How many died building the original IRT, and how many were maimed? Safety practices slow things down relative to then. How many utilities had to be moved to build the original IRT? I'd guess a lot less. Perhaps they will bore a lot of the tunnel, but that requires big shafts to get the machinery down there. Lots of utilities to move.
How many large buildings lined the route of the original IRT when it was built? They complicate the digging a lot.
I don't mean to minimize the beauracratic stupidity that will string out this project, but it is a bit silly to compare building a subway in manhattan now to building one in 1904.
25 years is ridiculous though. That's a lack of commitment on the part of the people at the very top. It could certainly be done in something like 10.
Another thing - we keep hearing "studies" being mentioned. Are they really studies (gee, should we build this?) or are they designs - how exactly will we build this? Designing a subway in manhattan understandably takes some time (shouldn't take 5 years though!!!!)
I found it curious that when DC built the Green Line from U street up to Fort Totten (which took about 5 years, but was built through an area far less dense than 2nd avenue, with only 2 stations along it) they were scheduled to finish "structural work" a full 2 years before the line opened to the public! I had trouble figuring out what they could be doing down there for two years _after_ the tunnels were built.
Does anyone know when the green line to branch avenue will open?
[There are a bunch of reasons why you can't build a subway as fast as you could in 1904. How many died building the original IRT, and how many were maimed? Safety practices slow things down relative to then. How many utilities had to be moved to build the original IRT? I'd guess a lot less. Perhaps they will bore a lot of the tunnel, but that requires big shafts to get the machinery down there. Lots of utilities to move.
How many large buildings lined the route of the original IRT when it was built? They complicate the digging a lot.]
Today's more stringent safety requirements certainly add to the project's cost, but I don't see how they would slow it down significantly. Whatever delays vs. the 1904 work might result from safety requirements would be far more than made up for by more advanced equipment. As far as the utilities are concerned, it should be noted that Second Avenue has fewer underground utility lines than the other avenues - something done in anticipation of the subway work.
All this talk of federal EIS requirements assume NYC will get federal money. It won't. Sure, the feds might designate a portion of the money we would have gotten anyway to the project, but that just means NYC and State would have to come up with more of their own for routine capital needs.
NY State could exempt the project from state and local procedural bullshit, and construction could begin. THEN a consultant could be hired to do an EIS on the effect of construction. It should be cheaper, since it could be measured instead of projected (projections are usually 10 times the actual impact in futile attempt to avoid environmetal lawsuits -- the environmentalists HATE the idea of actually measuring, say, the ACTUAL impact of one large store and using to project the future effect of one proposed in similar location).
The FEDs could be begged for money later in the project. Again, Boston got extra money for the Big Dig because Tip O'Neil was Speaker of the House. To make up for it, the entire Northeast saw its share of national transporation spending cut below its share of population (let alone tax payments) the next time the law was up for authorization.
[The FEDs could be begged for money later in the project. Again, Boston got extra money for the Big Dig because Tip O'Neil was Speaker of the House.]
In the Boston Sunday Globe headlines, the cover story is a report on how the Big Dig's enormous cost overruns were being covered up by state officials. But this quote reveals a lot:
"...Project officials shifted $400 million in project and related costs to other state agencies, primarily the MBTA."
No wonder the T is coming up short on funding. I wouldn't be surprised if the Cellucci administration hates it.
I've been wondering the same thing about the 63rd St./Queens Blvd. connector. The tunnel's finished already. How long does it take to install rails, signals, lighting, etc. in a tunnel that's only a few blocks long?
[I've been wondering the same thing about the 63rd St./Queens Blvd. connector. The tunnel's finished already. How long does it take to install rails, signals, lighting, etc. in a tunnel that's only a few blocks long?]
Ever pass a government construction project? They just sit there, day after day, with nobody doing anything, and that's where the time goes! It's fairly obscene.
Many times, and I've always wondered why.
My favorite current example is the work on the outer roadway on the South side of the 59th St. bridge. I've been expecting it to re-open for months now. The work seemed to be moving along at a reasonable rate (for a govt project) until it reached about 98% of completion. Now? Nothing.
[Many times, and I've always wondered why.]
Maybe someone can answer that? In private business, work gets done quickly because the contractor doesn't get paid until it does.
[There are a bunch of reasons why you can't build a subway as fast as you could in 1904. How many died building the original IRT, and how many were maimed? Safety practices slow things down relative to then.]
Not by much. After all, they had to dig the thing by hand.
[How many utilities had to be moved to build the original IRT? I'd guess a lot less.]
Again, not really. The water mains, sewers, and gas pipes were already in place. Fewer telephone pairs and less electrical capacity, but the difference isn't that significant.
[Perhaps they will bore a lot of the tunnel, but that requires big shafts to get the machinery down there. Lots of utilities to move.
How many large buildings lined the route of the original IRT when it was built? They complicate the digging a lot.]
Most of the Second Avenue route is straight and easy by comparison to the route of the original IRT, which tunneled under a little mountain, flew over a valley, crossed a river, and had to deal with the shuttle route, the NY Central, and the old Lexington Avenue train tunnel. Consider the difficulty of building the line through the foundations of the Times Tower for example). Lower Manhattan remains difficult, but I think you'll find that overall things haven't changed that much or have become easier (no streetcar lines to rebuild, for example).
[I don't mean to minimize the beauracratic stupidity that will string out this project, but it is a bit silly to compare building a subway in manhattan now to building one in 1904. 25 years is ridiculous though.]
According to what's been posted here, contractors generally mention five or six years as a reasonable time frame. The RPA, which has proposed building a much more elaborate line with an extension in the Bronx and a new tunnel to Brooklyn, estimats 10 years for the entire project using existing deep bore technology. It really doesn't take that long to build a subway, even if governemnt does it!
[As far as tying up the capital for so long, that's one of the reasons that some cities/states do prolonged rehabilitation projects on functionally obsolete bridges. It's easier on the budget to spread, say 30 million over 10-15 years than 20 million over 5 years for new construction.]
But it costs a *lot* more money. If coming up with the cash is the problem (something I question, given that government typically issues bonds for these things), then it would make more sense economically to set aside a certain amount of cash every year and earn interest on it until the project could be built towards the end of the period.
[Yes, you probably could build a subway in Manhattan in 5 years, but you'd pay dearly for it, in terms of capital expenditures on the contracts themselves, and in terms of tearing up all of Second Avenue until the tunnel structure itself is completed. Most MTA contracts I've seen aren't big on incentives for finishing early (Williamsburg being the exception) and a tight schedule will mean much higher prices from the contractors.
Waiting longer makes things more difficult in many respects. Recently, material prices have kept pace with inflation, but if you were to see spikes in something like cement prices, you're old price estimates are out the window. Additionally, the construction labor pool is seriously short. For all of the talk about how much the unions make, they still have trouble attracting enough people for all of the positions that they can fill. This will mean higher costs for labor, and if the labor requirements are too large, i.e. you're trying to build too much at once, then you won't be able to find enough people at any price. Believe me, many large contractors are paying significant amounts of money to skilled workers to keep them around, above and beyond union scale.]
But five years seems to be fairly standard for building a line of that length. We aren't talking about fast tracking here, because subway construction lends itself to multiple sites and contractors. The labor pool might be more of a problem, but with nothing much going on now in the way of office construction I find it hard to believe that sufficient workers couldn't be rounded up. The original IRT was built by 3400 workers in a four year period, working with axes, shovels, and dynamite. We use more power equipment today, but that only reduces the size of the labor requirement. Surely a city of 8 million or so, several hundred thousand of whom receive public assistance, can come up with a few thousand people to do grunt work and, in the case of the more able, learn skilled trades? I know that there are difficulties--the GC's I know run around like headless chickens trying to keep up with a labor pool that's frequently scary in its lack of competence--but much of our infrastructure was built with unskilled labor immigrant. Isn't that just the sort of thing we need to get people off welfare?
>>>I read in the papers today that they expect it would take 16-25 years to build a full-length Second Ave.
subway. I would think that in 25 years, they could build a subway from NYC to LA! Why could it
possibly take so long? It seems to me that they should be able to build it in 8-10 years. <<<
Unions, brotha!
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Unions, brotha!]
Genesis, after God joined the Deity's Union:
1. On the first day, God rested. 2. And on the second day, God rested. 3. And on the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh days He did the same thing.
Also, will new stations be built on the 7 at the UN or on 60th and 63rd at second for a connection to the 2nd Avenue Subway?
I asked the same question a few months back. The response that was given indicated that, due to the grades on the 7 line at that point, it would not be practical to construct a station. Apparently the tunnel is sloped sufficiently that (1) it would be difficult to precisely stop a train on the downgrade, or to start one on the upgrade, and (2) the slope of the station platform would be dangerous for pedestrians. A third reason given, not related to the grade, was that there was little room surrounding the tubes at that point for station construction.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It would be interesting to find out what the downgrade is at the south end of the Rector Street station on the N/R, and how close that is to the grade for the 7 train between First and Second Aves.
I know that from about the midway point of the station at Rector to the south end, the tile row that starts near the platform ends up at the ceiling, which means about a one level drop in 300 feet.
What about Q, a station between 1st and 2nd avenues would somewhat attract the people now using Lex line at 59th and 68th streets.
Arti
[Also, will new stations be built on the 7 at the UN or on 60th and 63rd at second for a connection to the 2nd Avenue Subway?
I asked the same question a few months back. The response that was given indicated that, due to the grades on the 7 line at that point, it would not be practical to construct a station. Apparently the tunnel is sloped sufficiently that (1) it would be difficult to precisely stop a train on the downgrade, or to start one on the upgrade, and (2) the slope of the station platform would be dangerous for pedestrians. A third reason given, not related to the grade, was that there was little room surrounding the tubes at that point for station construction.]
Very interesting. But since it's ridiculous not to have a connection there, why not build a third tunnel segment with a flat stretch and increased grades to make up for it, move both lines over, then do the same thing, this time modifyiing the temporarily empty far side tunnel, then move that train back, then turn the central tunnel segment into the new station? Assuming there's room for it, of course.
Seems like whatever the complexity it would be cheaper and more functional than extending the shuttle and cheaper than a spur (though I rather like the RPA's idea of originating the express segment in GCT).
Did my eyes deceive me or has the western entrance and exit to this station been removed? This used to be the way that students and faculty at Franklin K Lane HS arrived at school. I have the impression that a number of the two entrance stations on Jamaica Ave have lost one of their entrances, and I am guessing it was because of low usage. Did someone goof and remove the west entrance instead of the east?
Yes, the Eldert's lane enterance has been removed, about 10 years ago, IIRC. Only the 75th St. enterance remains.
Chris,
I thought my best chance of an answer would be from you. I noticed the absence of the stairs from the platform level, and I assume that the stairs from the street to the mezzanine were removed as well. My big question is did they remove the entire mezzanine or waiting room from the elevated structure? I guess it is possible that it is still hanging there unused, just below the steel track girders, and completely inaccessible.
If students and faculty are still permitted to ride the trains, they are apparently walking to the east end, to use the 75th St entrance.
Yes, the entire mezzanine was removed. Many J stations had mezzanines removed during their rehab in 1989-90. The Forest Pkway and 102nd. St. mezzanines were removed from their respective stations, thus necessitating ths station's name to be changed.
I had two favorite stations on the line, 168th St and 111th St. 168th St is completely gone and 111th St no longer serves the purpose for which I liked it.
If you mean that the 111th St. middle track no longer stores layed up trains, you'd be suprised to see that it does use them occasionally. However, that track is in abysmal shape.
In those old days before Oct 13th 1950, 111th St was the terminal for the east end of the Lexington Ave Line during rush hour. It was fascinating in those days to stand near the east end of the "to city" platform, and see three car gate trains sent west increased to five car trains at the beginning of rush hour. Near the end, five car trains were reduced to three cars. Normally a dozen or more extra cars were stored on the middle track between the platforms during non-rush hours. Actual coupling and uncoupling was done on the middle track to the east of the station toward 121st St. Control of the operation seemed to be from a small building at the east end of the "to city" platform. It was a very busy place during rush hour, and an interesting operation to watch. Remember that every other train was a "Steel" through train for 168th St.
The exit to 113th St. had been closed for some time prior to being dismantled. I remember visiting some family friends who live on 113th St. back in 1978, and after getting off the train, I had to hoof it all the way back to the 111th St. end of the station to exit. Also, the Saturday school I had attended in Brooklyn moved to Holy Child Jesus School in 1970, which was on 111th St. and next to the station. By then, however, my father was driving us there each Saturday, much to my dismay. We wouldn't have made it on time by bus and subway.
"I had to hoof it"
Glad to hear you were in my shoes (or actually, feet).
You like that, eh? Put it this way: I walk fast.
Not only is there no longer an entrance at Eldert (formerly Elderts) Lane for the Elderts Lane station, but there is also no longer an entrance at Forest Parkway for the Forest Parkway station.
This is presumably why the new maps no longer use those names, instead calling those stations "75th Street" and "85th Street", respectively.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I never cease to be amazed at everything that has changed since I left. Knowing the traffic that the Elderts Lane entrance had from that school, and the fact that the school is still there makes the closure of the entrance seem sort of stupid. Perhaps the demolition of Dexter Park contributed, although people for Dexter Park should have used the 75th St entrance. I just realized that Dexter Park was probably torn down almost forty years ago.
I am hundreds of miles away, trying to understand changes to a station I haven't seen since 1954. That's sort of stupid in itself.
"I am hundreds of miles away, trying to understand changes to a station I haven't seen since 1954. That's sort of stupid in itself."
Not stupid in the least!!
Your efforts keep you in touch with your roots, and also allow people who are younger to benefit from your perspective. I, as a current resident of that area, read everything you post with great interest!
Also, I look for posts of yours on questions that involve the history of my neighborhood, and I am disapponted when I don't see them. For example, a few weeks ago, I asked about the history of Woodhaven Blvd. Certain things suggested to me that Woodhaven Blvd. was, for much of this century, not really considered to be the major thoroughfare that it is today.
I got several very good answers to that question, including a look at an old map (thanks to Kevin Walsh) which showed the street pattern that formerly existed in Rego Park before Woodhaven was widened. This showed the old route of Trotting Course Lane, and several other cool things.
However, one thing I was hoping to get but didn't was a personal memory from you. Of course, this was my own fault, because I accidentally referred in my post to "Karl M." instead of "Karl B." in my post.
But, nevertheless, this is just one example to illustrate that there are many, many topics of discussion for which a guy with first-hand memories of 1954 is very handy to have around.
Ferdinand Cesarano
This station was once listed as a Brooklyn Station since Elderts Lane is in Brooklyn and the station straddles the Brooklyn Queens Border. When they closed the exit for Elderts Lane and renamed the station it is now listed as a Queens Station.
Does anybody knows about the details of what happen on the Manny-B reroutes back in 1982,and also about the Willie-B emergencey closing in 1988.
I'm not sure myslef, but take a look at the FAQ.
From 4/88 to 6/88, the bridge was closed do to structural problems (cars and trains). Re-routes were almost exactly the same as last summer's closure. The only difference was that the Z didn't as yet exist.
i would like to reccomend the vidieotape for all ( you know who you are ) etc.....
last series of posts from dave-hank-pig-(you know the rest ) and you didnt prove anything at all...
so to answer all of the last racist hate posts etc... rent.....GEORGE -ORWELLS....ANNIMAL-FARM .....!!
( you should own it to study and review and review !) .. maybe you have seen this film and or vidieo !!!
it reminds me about all of the negative flamage threads some of you have sent not just to me including racist
attacks and e mail as well !! when you watch ANNIMAL FARM find out what annimal you are in the film !!
in the end the PIGS win ( the transverse cab car co and supporters etc...) SPELLCHECK HELL SQUAD !!
other internet and subtalk and chat rooms have taught me that racism hate evil flamage personal attacks
are alive and well in america !! AND when i thought that the subject of "" rail transit systems worldwide ""..
was exempt from this same ANNIMAL FARM madness, I found out how wrong I was in that !!
finally after recieving a nice e-mail from heypaul he was right there are a lot of very lowlifes who hide
as weak cowards with no strength and or bone at all !! they ( some of you ) hide behind your computer
screens and hide your slime with your personal attacks that you would never do to my or anyones face !!
ANNIMAL FARM by GEORGE ORWELL ..!! also i agreed with heypaul life is certanly worth more than
some of the idiots that call themselves subtalkers and thier off topic harrassing flamage posts !!
i guess i do blame myself some of you fools out there aint worth it .... !!
DO NOT GET THE MOVIE!!! READ THE BOOK!!!
I read the book this year and was given the test that is given to 12th graders in NYC. If you haven't read it, it is a great book.
BTW, Dave, I am not attempting to turn SubTalk into Amazon.com2 but it was one of the better books I read in school this year.
Hey Salaam, the book "Animal Farm" is alot better than the movie.
yea !... the book is better than the cartoon film- is that not how it usually goes!!?... i do agre with you there !!
like the second taking of pelham 1-2-3.. was not even close to the.. first film !! ... now about the rest of my last post ?....
Hey Pigs, do you know Napoleon or do you hang with Snowball's crew. Also can I get you opinion on this, four legs good, 2 legs better?
Two legs are better, I walk on them unless I need to run somewhere when I use 4 for better stability. And I know neither of them, but I am aware of their work, and Napoleon sucks! He totally bastardised Animalism!
Thanks Dav!
Here's The Question--
I have noticed that on the R-142s that the "storm doors" or the doors passengers use to switch cars have been changed from the traditional 1 door to the (new?) two door style. Why has this been done? Wouldnt this make it harder to switch cars is a passanger has children and has to use both hands to slide open the two doors, or is this an engineering improvement and am I just missing the point?
Thx
Funniest thing I ever saw with split car end doors was on the LIRR years ago. They actually had a few (VERY few) MP54 motor trailers left (the 1000 series) that had these things. You'd pull one side shut, an the other side would automatically shut.
Well, one conductor stuck his head through a set of these doors into the passenger compartment to call out a station name, then pulled the already-opened half of the door near his front, shut. Guess he didn't realize what car he was in, the other half of the door hit him in the back of the head and knocked his hat off, which rolled right down the steps of the moving train onto the roadbed!!
And wouldn't you know, he pulls the emergency brake rope, the train shudders to a stop and he walks back to get the hat. We sat there, between Amityville and Copiague for about five minutes!! Anyone that didn't see the door/hat situation would never have known what happened. And this was in the days before radios.....
The R-110a also has this feature. I have never been on either the 110a or 142, but I think they both open if one is opened because the doors are opened an equal distance from the center to allow the wires to go through. The Amtrak Turboliner also has double end doors, though they automatically slide open when a button is pushed.
Maybe they are NJ transit style. There is a button near the bottom half. Push it and the doors open. The new Comet 4 has this feature.
But not with double doors. I especially like the button near the floor to kick when my hands are full (both NJT and AMTRAK). If you want to check it out, the Turboliner departs Albany 12:NOON, and Poughkeepsie at 1:01 and arrives in NYP at 2:25 PM weekdays. It returns to Albany Monday thru Thursday at 4:30, first stop Rhinecliff-Kingston. Unreserved. Fare is from $19 to $23. Train consists of 2 Buisness class cars / engines, 2 coaches, 1 coach / café car.
This is true both doors open when you open either one. This is done for ADA compliance, making the doorway wide enough for a wheel chair to pass. One larger door would be too heavy.
Peace,
Andee
The doors are wired together, so that opening one opens the other equally. The passage between cars is now supposed to be wide enough for a wheelchair.
-Hank
Why on earth would a weelchair passenger go between cars! And why would the MTA encourage passage between cars? Remember those "Don't take the risk" ads of the late 80's? How 'bout those passengers are prohibited to ride between cars stickers?
Another example of MTA "ingeniousness", to allow handicapped people to go into the same dangerous areas as non-handicapped folk.
Hey, if its equal access they want, its equal access they get. BTW does riding b/t the cars give one any cool railfan views. I think it might be cool in some of the trans-river tubes.
Riding between cars on R-44/46/68 cars is neat, especially on sharp curves. I was only able to do this 2 times. On the Rock Pk. shuttle, it is neat to look down while going over the bridge to Broad Channel. On an R-68 N I unwillingly went through the tunnel to Manhattan in between cars as I could not hold on and hit the little switch to allow me into the next car at the same time. Don't remember what it looked like, had to close eyes due to wind (R68s appear to go faster from between cars.) To find an unlocked door on 75' cars look for the blue light to be lit on the exterior end of the car. On R-46 only: blue light cab cars at cab end - this indicates an unlocked cab. Useful to see the codes / messsages for digital signs (on a metal plate inside cab).
It may be "neat" but it is not safe. Those doors are locked for a reson.
--Mark
It may be "neat" but it is not safe. Those doors are locked for a reason. (Man I can't spell today to save my life!)
--Mark
No reason for Rock Pk. shuttle - tracks were designed for 85' cars, and no sharp curves.
Also no reason for Franklyn S. Straight line!
Understandable on B'way line near Canal (can't even see next car's storm door due to sharp curve).
Slightly unrelated: Why are they locking end doors on R40 slants! I couldn't get to the front of the Q without running along the platform!
That's news to me. When the slants were new, the storm doors on the A ends were locked because it was deemed too dangerous. This was before all that extra stuff got grafted on. A few years back when they were still running on the B, I made my way through the train to the first car in pouring rain - passing between cars while the train was pausing at a station stop.
Americans with
Disabilities
Act
Remember, even disabled people have the right to do dangerous things. I doubt the MTA really wants this, rather, they're being forced into it by yet another well intentioned, but misguided ferderal law.
I'm waiting for the ADA people to start demanding elevators in every subway station. That would only cost what? 5, 6 billion?
I remember Evil Keneviel on the radio years ago. I always found the M series design to be particularly stupid though, esp given that you'r passing between cars unprotected at speeds that easily approach 80 mph. why the LIRR/Metro-North never went with an A car B car design (like the '54s were), is beyond me.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
Peace,
Andee
or the one..
This brings up a question I've had for a while.
Why aren't subway cars articulated?
I recall seeing the triple set at the Transit Museum and they were indeed articulated.
Metro-North and LIRR also have articulated connections. Why don't NYC subway cars have them also. I figure cost may have something to do with it, am I right. Seems that for the going cost of a subway car - how much more can an articulated connection cost?
Apparently New York City doesn't have articulated subway cars because the BMT went out of business in 1940 :)
The IND did consider articulation before it decided on the R-1 design.
From my History of the Independent Subway:
Various studies had been done to determine the "optimal" type car for minimizing station dwell time. With the success of the BMT's D-type Triplexes, articulation was considered for a while because of its economies (two bodies sharing one truck) but in the end, articulation was not chosen. Instead of one larger side door opening in a single frame on each side, two side doors, half the size, slid open in one frame. This has been the standard on nearly all car orders ever since.
I guess John Madison (he designed the R-1) never considered an articulated unit with 2 sliding doors instead of one, ala the Triplex.
--Mark
--Mark
Correct me if I am wrong but IIRC the IND also considered 6 doors per side.
Peace,
Andee
That I don't know.
--Mark
AND seats in the middle
Peace,
Andee
Neither MN or LIRR cars are articulated. Articulated generally means that both cars share a truck, like the TGV, talgo, or many LRVs.
With commuter stuff, it's not really needed, though with high speed stuff, it's pretty much a nessecity, as it leads to greater stability.
that said, the bombardier cars on MN have an awffuly close connection through them, much better than the Ms or the (sl)amfleets.
Hey Phil, I know this is off topic but since we both share the other riding hobby have you been biking lately? I just bought a new battery for my hog and took a nice ride to Jones Beach taking the Meadowbrook to and the Wantagh from. Now I gotta get a battery for my rice burner.
Well....
Unfortuently, I'm stuck up at school in Hartford right now :(
Next weekend I finally move into an apartment andI'll have the bike up here. 7 more days...
I need to pick up a handle bar clamp for my Wide glide - the current one is forming what appear to be minor stress cracks - so I figure I'll replace it now, instead of later.
Was on the bike a bit over spring break (but it was cold all that week) - I can't come down for weekend (as much as I'd love to), because I've got a saturday class now (ugh) and the professor is kinda a pain about attendance.
Anyway, Thursday afternoon, I'm gonna be on a MN train to NYC, friday morning, picking up that part I need, and riding all day, then saturday riding all the way up here, then off to Boston Sunday (somehow - I wanna go to the MIT swap fest to get a signal generator, oscilloscope, and other electronic goodies. but a BIG 500 series Tek scope just isn't going to fit safely on the bike with me) then I'll be riding at least to class and a lot on the weekends.
Only thing is, tight connections on Bombardier Shoreliners and the similar Bombardier cars on NJT is that when switching, a gap develops between the connections and an unnatentive person might slip their hand in by accident and get it crushed when the gap disappears. On the NJT Bombariders I have seen the gap get so large that less than half the connection actually went to the next car, the rest went to open space.
The most interesting was when the Peck bridge in Bridgeport was being rebuilt. The temporary bridge was AMAZINGLY twisted. And restricted to 15mph. It was weird looking down an M-2 and seeing open air where the next car should have been. Also being able to sit in the first car, look to the left or right, and see your train next to you.
To this day, I'm impressed that they managed that tight a turn with no problems.
One thing that always bugged me about the M-series design was how far into the car the trucks are. There's quite a few feet hanging over. For some reason, this seems unstable. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I've noticed the Acela stuff is pretty extreme too.
I think you're confusing articulated with diaphram. Articualted generally means (in transit terms) that there are two bodies sharing a common wheelset. A diaphram is the rubber or vinal edge around a door opening that keeps the connection between the two seperate cars (or articulated bodies) somewhat weatherproof.
If these were installed on NYCT cars, you can bet they'd be vandalized within an hour. On Amtrak cars, there is no gap between the cars, the threshhold plates are flexible, and meet each other flush.
-Hank
Yes, Mr Eisenstein, you're right. That is what I meant. I meant that the cars are joined so close that there is a very small gap between the cars.
I could see this diaphragm being vandalized, but I wonder if it would be possible to get the subway cars to meet closer than they do now. It seems that the gaps between even the A Division cars are still quite hazardous if you don't look where you're going.
Thanks
I would think that it could be easier to evacuate a disabled person on a wheelchair given the wider width of the storm door.
--Mark
The bi-directional doors are also on the 200-series rebuilt (1996/97) Pullman-Standard MBTA Purple Line Commuter Rail cars. In order to generate an opening large enough for a wheelchair, a single panel door won't work -- as it would be too large to "hide" when opened and still keep the doorway centered. Two-panel doors allow each panel to be half-sized, so that they can stow into opposite pockets.
Umm, two examples of perfectly good reasons for someone to be passing between cars, and why disabled people would have to be able to pass between cars:
1) Not every car will be on the platform at the next station. I don't know about the New York City commuter lines, but this is very common on Chicago's Metra at the smaller stations.
2) Emergency evacuation, but some of the cars are in a dangerous place to exit the train, so the conductor orders that the passengers move to a particular car to exit the train.
It's easy to call the MTA stupid for doing something that YOU can't see why they did it that way. But just because you can't think of the reason doesn't mean there isn't one.
[Not every car will be on the platform at the next station.]
I can think of 2 places where this is the case in the New York City Subway.
• South Ferry on the 1 and 9 lines, where only the first 5 cars open their doors.
• 145th Street on the 3 line, where only the first 4 cars open their doors*.
*The Conductor's position is between the 4th and 5th cars of the train, since trains on the 3 line are 9 cars long.
Very true, except that a handicapped passenger in the rear set of the train still would have problems since the storm doors of cab cars are the same as the regular ones. Many times I have seen evacuations done through the first few cars (one just today (well, yesterday)).
I thought changing cars that way was dangerous! Now they made it so WHEELCHAIRS can get through? PLEASE!
I thought changing cars that way was dangerous! Now they made it so WHEELCHAIRS can get through? PLEASE! Safety first.
Excuse me ladies and gentlemen, I,m homeless,have AIDS,lost my job ,my wife ran of with my lawter, my dog joined the space program, and I'm hungry. I slept in a shelter last night and my motorized wheel chair was chairjacked! I'm not receiving any city,state or federal funding except Social security ,free out patient clinic treatment at the Methadon center at Bellevue Med center. Althouth some of you saw me carry my wheel chair down the stairs and my legs look full ,muscled and my expensive Nike's show wear , I need to trouble you for a penny,nickle,dime , quarter ,Visa or Mastercharge. Thank you brother , thank you, God bless you . Would you please get the door. YOO, I said Please get the door!!
Excuse me me ladies and gentlemen.........
avid
You think they've invaded the subways long enough...now they're invading SubTalk! HaHaHa!
The City of Tel Aviv is seriously discussing the construction of a new light rail subway between the city center and the Diamond Exchange. The new line is projected to cost 600 million Shekels (@$ 125 million US Dollars.
[The City of Tel Aviv is seriously discussing the construction of a new light rail subway between the city center and the Diamond Exchange. The new line is projected to cost 600 million Shekels (@$
125 million US Dollars.]
In NYC, it'd cost a few billion shekels and take five times as long. God bless America.
Tel Aviv is a beach city. It is built on sand. They will NEVER finish building it. Just like New York transit will never finish building second avenue subway
By the way Jerusalem is also doing some subway construction
There used to be a subway in Haifa. I think it was called the
Carmelite. I rode it in 1983, but when I went back in 1988, it was
closed.
No it was 2 cars in a hill and one car moved the second car like a ski lift A subway uses seperate cars or trains
Haifa has an underground funicular system
The Karmelit was re-opened several years after you saw it closed. It is actually an underground cable car, not a subway. It has six stations with two two-car units serving them. As one goes up, the other comes down.
As of this year, the Haifa Karmelit is still in operation...I thought it was a subway my first time seeing it during a port visit to Haifa Shipyards (I'm a Sailor)
It looks like the Haifa Karmelit will be getting a shot in the arm from the building of a large municipal business center going on not far from the station at its lowest end and the anticipated opening of a new station of the commuter rail line adjacent to the new building complex, allowing transfers between the commuter railway and the Karmelit.
I am a former R32 Q Brighton Express rider, now ex-patriate living in a small town approximately 60 miles north of Tel Aviv. There was talk about building a Tel Aviv subway when I arrived here in 1978. I am told that the talk dates back to the 1950s. They are still talking and the former Prime Minister dug a hole with a shovel in north Tel Aviv to start it. I do not know if the hole he made is still there. The Tel Aviv subway is about as likely to get built as is the 2nd Avenue subway in New York. But then again, every now and then there occurs a miracle in the land of Zion and Jerusalem.
i hope u understand
It's two weeks too early, but at least it was Rosh Hodesh (new month, new moon), today. So, two weeks in advance, Hag Pesah Sameah to you too!
please email me i have a lot to ask u
Sorry, I can't figure out how to get this computer to make the connection.
[The Tel Aviv subway is about as likely to get built as is the 2nd Avenue subway in New York. But then again, every now and then there occurs a miracle in the land of Zion and Jerusalem.]
It will take a mega-miracle to get the Second Avenue line built in New York - Moses parting the Red Sea is child's play by comparison.
The Israel commuter railroad (diesel, not electric), which has had a station near the Diamond Center of Tel Aviv for about 50 years, opened several years ago another station in Tel Aviv, which has since had attached to it massive buildings and the largest shopping mall in the country. The commuter railroad connects the cities of Haifa and Tel Aviv, about 80 miles apart, with towns in between, to the town of Nahariyya near the northern border. It has flourished since the Rabin administration, and if I recall correctly, the number of passengers has tripled since then. It is now being connected to Be'er Sheva' in the south. Hopefully, it will eventually be connected to Elat.
[The Israel commuter railroad ...]
How much are the fares and what part of the operating costs do they cover?
Arti
The fare depends on how far one travels. It is somewhat less than the bus. Soldiers ride free, I think the army paying the railway a flat rate for this service. As far as I know it is not subsidized, although capital projects are funded through the Port Authority (since this linkage, the railway has fluorished). What the tremendous volume of passengers these days, I doubt that subsidies are necessary.
isn't there also a line to Jerusalem?
It has been closed. The trip took twice or thrice as long than by bus or car. Too bad, Jerusalem really needs a modern rail connection to get in and out.
When did it close? I used to pass it all the time on my way from Ateret Cohanim in the old cty of Jerusalem to my parents in Avraham Avinu in Chevron, right by the curve in Derech Chevron.
subfan
I remember around 25 years ago an incident that occurred during rush hour on a crowded Brooklyn bound F train. At the Kings Highway station, where the platform is on the left side of the train. The conductor mistakenly opened the doors on the right side instead where there was nothing but a 60 foot drop off the El structure to Macdonald Ave. below. They were very lucky that nobody fell out since the train was packed.
On NJT a year ago the conductor accidentally opened the front and back sections of the 10 car train at a 6 car station (Linden). There were people leaning on the doors who did not expect this to happen, and while nobody fell, it would have been painful to fall the 3 or 4 feet to the ground if you weren't expecting it.
Also, on the Main St. 7 local, the conductor opened the side that is usually closed off except on days of special/sporting events and not the normal side. After the train left many people were confused at the chains blocking the stairs to the exit.
Also, some stations (like Hoyt-Schermerhorn and 59th Street IND) have signs that say "WRONG SIDE - DO NOT OPEN." I think it would be pretty obvious if there is a wall on one side of the track that the side with the wall is the wrong side. They should have such signs on Elevated stations or other stations where it is likely that someone would fall out, JIC the C/R doesn't change sides by the time the train stops.
I remember a few days ago, a TO missed the 11 mark at Junction Boulevard. I guess the TO was a new one because another TO was telling him stuff about what to do. The TO off the controls often told the TO on the controls to brake when coming into a station and was telling him that its always OK to stop short of the mark because you can slowly pull up, but can't stop long because you can't back the train up. Anyway, the TO "student" finally stopped the train at Junction Blvd far enough that the first set of doors was not facing the platform. TO "teacher" says "Give him [CR] 2 buzzes" The doors opened and the TO "teacher" just stood in the open doorway until the doors closed. Good thing he was there.
more important is stopping short. The train operator was wrong. Conducters will open the doors as soon as the train stops and they are rouphly on the marker. If the train goes too far the train operater can hit the circuit breakers and make sure the front doors dont open. The rear doors can not be controlled likewise
I remember several years back a passenger killed at either Harrison or
Mamaronek on New Haven Line when the doors opened over the viaduct and
he fell to the street.
NJT Leaves the doors open on Hoboken division trains especially if they are long and inbound during afternoon rush hour (too annoying to mess with trapdoors.) Nobody is stupid enough to fall out, though it is windy if the doors on both sides are open and you may loose your balance. Many times I have seen people hop off before it stops while the train was entering Hoboken.
That used to be very common on the LIRR's diesel lines.
The train operator was NOT wrong. If the train stops short of the marker, proper procedure is to give the CR one LONG buzz and then pull up to the marker. Proper procedure for bypassing the marker and putting doors off the platform is to call Control and turn yourself in. All in all, better to stop short then to overshoot.
The BSS cars in Phila had a foot button that would trip out the door control relays. Anytime the m/m didn't want the doors to open he just had to depress that button. They would stay shut or close if already open.
In Boston we have signal buzzers and bells (no indication light except on the #3 red line cars). The m/m depresses a mushroom that activates a buzzer when the doors are all closed and it is OK to proceed. If he overshoots or stops short he gives the guard one long bell; two bells is the "all clear" signal.
I read in Passenger Transport a while back that the TA is looking into some positive protection system for door control - ie, some interface between the platform and train that would only allow the doors to open if the train is properly berthed. Anybody have more info?
They added switches to an R46 or R44 set that require the motorman to depress the switch before the conductor can open the doors.
-Hank
The last I heard, it was done on 3 R-44 consists. The motorman hits an enable switch that activates the door circuits on one side of the car. This 'enables' the C/R to open the doors ONLY on the side that the train operator has energizes.
Has anybody noticed several sets of mixed r-38 (8 cars) and r-32 (2 cars) on the A line? I also noticed that the motorman end of the r-32's is different than the variety found on the E line.
Any information?
Not sure, but I think it as mentioned awhile back that some of the R32's were rebuilt by GE up at Hornell, and those are the ones that will be seen mated to R38's on occasion. I think there were 10 or 20 cars done by GE, someone please correct me if I'm wrng.
It was 10 cars done up at Hornell!
R142 Boi 2K
10 cars were done, 2 cannibalized for parts. Interior identical to that of R38 except more poles (10).
The following R32's were GOH'ed along with the R38's GOH and so the fronts look identical: 3594/95, 3880/81, 3892/93, 3934/35 (out of service at 207Yd., cannibalized for spare parts), and 3936/37.
A few of them even have places where the marker lights and LOCAL/EXP signs would be! This picture demonstrates. You might have to scroll to see the whole thing. (I tested it at 800x600 and it came out OK. The part I want you to see fills a maximized browser whose width is almost 800 pixels wide.)
Info:
Cropped Image
Subject: R32 car #3893 (C)
Original Image Size: 257K
Dimensions 1536x1024
Above Picture Size: 47.5K
Dimensions: 832x343
Camera Location: Downtown Platform of the 42nd Street-8th Avenue Station
Picture Taken on 19 January 2000 by R.M.
All 10 cars are like that.
A fellow E line Motorman (and frequent SubTalk Visitor and ocassional Poster) and I were talking about the idea advocated here by some contributors: instead of scrapping, why not put extenders on the door sills (ala Staten Island cars used on the Culver local many years ago) so they could be used on the B division till the R143's come in. His conclusion: never happen. Unsafe. Why? I'm sure you have seen on ocassion, particularly around school dismissal time, young people, after they get off the train, ride "side saddle" on the door threshold and hold on to the roof. When the train picks up speed, the youth jumps off. With the extender, that problem will increase dramatically since there will be more room on the side. There is a big safety push in the TA right now. There are posters on the stations and cars, sometimes kind of corny, reminding passengers about safety (your mother...). Employees have gone to all day Dupont safety courses to reinforce safe work habits and they get constant reminders in the field. Surely, the TA will not do something which will be an invitation for passengers to injure themselves, even by their own stupidity!
Door extenders were used on old Lo-V cars on the Culver Shuttle, not the SIRT cars, which were the same width as standard B division cars.
subfan
That would be a problem. In the area between the doors, the MTA could put in extenders that sloped away from the train at a 30 degree right angle, which would make riding there about like trying to ride on the rear window of a Slant-40. But at the doorways themelves, there really wouldn't be anything you could do that would be cheap and easy (I'm sure they could come up with retratable extenders for the doors, but for cars that would be scrapped in less than two years, that would be stupid)
I supposed the bean counters could do a risk-benefit anaylsis and decide if the extra traffic they could add on the B Division over an 18-month or so period by using the modified `birds would be worth the possible liability the MTA could incur from an injured or dead side-rider, and whether or not the added platform at the doors would encourage more people to do it.
Going by the lame-brained (and in two cases, de-brained) roof surfers over the past few months, I think you're going to have teens trying dangerous stunts no matter what type of car the MTA runs.
Unfortuneatly, we live in an age of hyper-litigation, and non-accountability
A 30 Degree right angle?
I agree, but I figure there has the be some way to do it. Perhaps with a spring-loaded beam on the outside of the door, or some kind of block that moves with the doors.
-Hank
Right angle with the 90 and 60 degree angles at the bottom and the 30 degree at the top, of course.
If there was enough space between the door and the frame for a spring-activated thin plate to sprea out over the door extenders and then retract when the door opens, that might work, but it would have to be a pretty powerful spring to keep some of the local yutes from just pressing it against the door with their feet. Anything that strong would probably be too costly to justify installing on the Redbirds for what would only be a short period of use on the B Division.
As it stands now on the midnight redbirds are being used to get most out of these cars on the 6 line before they're scrapped. some nights all you see are redbirds.. why would for a short period of time redbirds be modified for service in the B division? its not cost efficient for a car fleet that'll be scrapped in 3 -4 years anyhow.
There still might be some "special" and "experimental" routes worth running, on the margin, if you had the cars. This is especially true in outer Brooklyn.
For example, one might run some express trains on the Culver/West End from Stillwell to Church/36th Street, inbound in the morning, outbound in the afternoon. Riders could hop an express, then switch to a local. The train would deadhead back to make another run.
Another example might be a super express on the BMT Broadway Line that turned around before entering Manhattan.
Or -- (no platform extenders required) a shuttle express on the Jerome Avenue line, that turned around at Yankee Stadium.
Consider squeezing blood out of a stone!
Re-assign the cream of the crop of LIRR M-1 coaches to be retired
to replace theOFF PEAK R/44's on the Rockaway Park shuttle
and the OFF PEAK
R/44's on the SIRT, In both instances this would include any Spares
that are on Stand-by . How many total cars and full sets,(8) cars
would be recovered? I'm drownding at clutching at straws , I
know a committee is being formed now in Far Rock and S.I. to
hunt me down.
avid
You know, how bad ARE the M1s? Long Islanders seem to think they are entitled to more than NYC residents, and LIRR workers are not the best. I'd bet that if you put them up in the Concourse shop the Dude could get MDBF up, at least for a while. If the 85 footers could make the turns, it might be nice to have a D roar down Central Park West at commuter rail speed.
I don't don't think they could make the turns, and dwell time , loading and unloading with only 2 set of doors would be a bottleneck for a RAPID transit system . but off peak shuttle service looks tempting.
avid
That could've been feasible had they not severed to old connection between the LIRR Far Rock station and the IND Far Rock station.
That could've been feasible had they not severed the old connection between the LIRR Far Rock station and the IND Far Rock station.
[As it stands now on the midnight redbirds are being used to get most out of these cars on the 6 line before they're scrapped. some nights all you see are redbirds.. why would for a short period of time redbirds be modified for service in the B division? its not cost efficient for a car fleet that'll be scrapped in 3 -4 years anyhow.]
The original idea was to alleviate temporary overcrowding on the L.
What I was talking about was non-mechanical (and therefore fairly cheap) platform extenders on the cars so they could be used in rush hour service on some of the less-heavily used lines. That would free up some of the regular B Division cars (R-40Ms and R-42s if we're talking Redbirds on the Eastern Division) to be used on the Q in order to open up the 63rd St. connector to full service earlier than is possible now, with the B Division car shortage.
The question there would be -- How much would putting platform extenders on 200 or so IRT cars cost, and how many more riders could the MTA expect to get by relieving overcrowding on the B Division lines going to Queens (or Brooklyn on the L). If you added capacity and addition fares from people currently turned off by the sardine-like E and F trains, then the cost of the extenders could be justified.
Bill from Maspeth brought up the fact that the extenders would be more tempting for side riders, so the bean counters at Jay Street would have to determine not only the cost-effectiveness of modifying the `birds for use for 18 months to two years (until the R-143s arrive), but also if they might increase the MTA's potential liability from some idiot riding on the side and then wrapping himself on a beam or a tunnel wall.
The Low Vs modified for the Culver only lasted about two years on that line before they went to the scrapper when the R-27/30s showed up, so it has been done before for just a short-term solution.
[A 30 Degree right angle?
I agree, but I figure there has the be some way to do it. Perhaps with a spring-loaded beam on the outside of the door, or some kind of block that moves with the doors.
-Hank]
How about a simple platform switch? Stand on the gap filler, train no go. Virtually no wiring, and it would eliminate any possible hazard to the innocent, clueless, drunk, or deranged.
I can solve the car shortage problem quickly and easily.
All it takes is a pair of wire cutters. Train Dude should
catch my drift.
[I can solve the car shortage problem quickly and easily.
All it takes is a pair of wire cutters. Train Dude should
catch my drift.]
You mean separate the car sets?
You mean separate the car sets?
No, I should think it would take more than a pair of wire
cutters to do that!
I'll give you another hint...I'm thinking of a number between 5 and 7
[A fellow E line Motorman (and frequent SubTalk Visitor and ocassional Poster) and I were talking about the idea advocated here by some contributors: instead of scrapping, why not put extenders on the door sills (ala Staten Island cars used on the Culver local many years ago) so they could be used on the B division till the R143's come in. His conclusion: never happen. Unsafe. Why? I'm sure you have seen on ocassion, particularly around school dismissal time, young people, after they get off the train, ride "side saddle" on the door threshold and hold on to the roof. When the train picks up speed, the youth jumps off. With the extender, that problem will increase dramatically since there will be more room on the side. There is a big safety push in the TA right now. There are posters on the stations and cars, sometimes kind of corny, reminding passengers about safety (your mother...). Employees have gone to all day Dupont safety courses to reinforce safe work habits and they get constant reminders in the field. Surely, the TA will not do something which will be an invitation for passengers to injure themselves, even by their own stupidity!]
If boys are going to flirt with Darwin there's nothing you can do. Remember that boy who lay down in the middle of the highway, or the kid who was mauled by the polar bear? Some kids are so dumb they hop across the tops of moving elevators. Nothing could be more futile than calibrating safety procedures to people who not only intentionally flout basic safety precautions, but do so with the specific intention of courting risk. And beyond the fact that many are being inconvenienced to benefit a few microcephalics, I have a suspicion that these attempts to compensate for people's irresponsibility contribute to the growth of that irresponsibility in the first place.
Assume for the moment that these Dawinian-busters had brains and no one would ever attempt such a feat.
In this age of insurance-for-everything and lawsuits-are-us, I agree that this would never happen.
Imagine if an R-9 type fan were still in use and a tall person got cut on it accidentally ... you'd have multi-million dollar suits up to the kazoo.
--Mark
I saw this graffitti on one of the "You can never be too safe" signs:
"Use condoms!"
sage advice, just not what they meant, I believe...
Saw that same exact grafitti. Forgot where.
I think 47-50th street concourse, by the Starbux...
Great advice for the subway surfers that survive.
Back about 2 weeks ago, I was subfanning on the search for R142/R142A's on the 5 when to my disappointment, there were no R142's...but.....
At Dyre Ave, I noticed that the front car of the next consist southbound was #7821 with that R21 storm window! I ran into the 4th car, and went to the first car to find a person there. That person is none other than Henry R32 #3730!
Anyway, we did chat about various subway topics, and looked out the window and I had wind blowing on my hair. But during the ride, there were a group of teenagers causing trouble on that front car, and interestingly had to skip Jackson Ave because of them. It was at 149/GC when those troublemakers were pulled off the train....
Anyway, we talked until I had to get off at Fulton, just about riding the entire run. I am not sure if Henry got to ride the inner loop of South Ferry though.
This happens to be the 2nd SubTalker I met in person!
Nick
I didn't get to ride the inner loop, but I got off at Bowling Green and got to see 7821 with the Gray sign and R21 storm door enter Bowling Green on the other side (first time I was able to see it enter a station).
I met a few fellow subtalkers last fall while in the city, although that was prearranged. The highlight of the day was a nice express run on a Q train along the Brighton line.
Being a Bostonian, I try to do some subfanning whenever I go back to my native NYC.
My last two trips produced some very productive results.
First trip was an interesting mix of trains...
The two A trains I got were pure R-38 trains. One of the number plates on one of the R-38 cars had a font which is different than the normal font used for R-38 number plates. That car number is #4119, using a Bold Arial/Helvetica type font.
I did manage to cover the normally unused 63rd St - 57th/7th Ave set of tracks because of a GO. Some of the R-68A's had yellow S signs, while the others had orange B signs. I kinda analogize that shuttle train to the unexpected guest to the Oscars (William Fulgear). That train consist was (S)5026-5025-5027-5028-5120-5119-5117-5118(N).
Then, my trip to Dyre, but I stopped over for a stop at Coliseum Books and then got on at Columbus Circle. Strange, strange happenings there, with a GO in effect. The 3 was running local on the southbound side, while on the northbound side, the 2 was running on the local track, but skipped the station (as normal).
Then, the years of our lives temptation struck again after getting off at 72nd, and a 3 came first, so I don't have the consist, but I rode on #1969, the year that the Mets pulled the improbable...win the World Series after a horrendous start!
Anyway, I did get on a redbird #2 at 135th towards E 180th, needing to transfer for a 5. On E 180th, all 2 and 5 northbound trains used the middle track. The 2 had a GO going express to Gun Hill Road northbound!
While waiting for a 5, I saw car #8888 on a southbound 2, which was I believe to have been the 9th car of that consist.
Anyway, my Dyre trip was covered on an earlier post, but after getting off at Fulton, I decided to take a short cut to my home, so I took an A, R-38 cars, one of two such sightings and boardings.
Then at Bway Junction, I saw the expected Slant R40s, with the odd couple 4426-4429.
The second trip, which was four days after I left, was by all means a totally hidden from view trip, as I had told no one other than a few of my friends and classmates, and was a day trip.
I managed to get to the SIR, but I got a rare boarding indeed, an R32 set on the R! No such luck on the N when I went south and stopping over before getting on that R. That car was #3640, and I took that to 86th, did some shopping and then went to Staten Island via S53. After getting off at Grasmere is when my SIR adventure began....
I really learned a hard lesson with SIR. Don't ride it if time is not on your side, as I waited almost 20 minutes for one at Grasmere going towards St. George. In fact I covered the whole line round trip and all the cars were R44 and numbered from 388 to 466 (numbers were unchanged by GOH done on them, if any was done). It took me almost a good 2 hours to cover the entire line round trip, and at the time I rode it, three stations were "last car only" stops: Tompkinsville, Richmond Valley and Atlantic stations, where Atlantic and Tompkinsville (under construction) had platforms which could only accomodate one car!
Anyway, end of my long post....
Nick
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000405/bc6.html
[http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000405/bc6.html]
It's an interesting article--nice to hear that Pataki's doing something positive for a change. Knowing him, that means he's feeling some political pressure from the RPA/Straphanger's Coalition campaign and the general enough-is-enough feeling about transportation conditions on the East Side.
Now may a good time to write Pataki and others supporting his actions (and criticising the inexcusable timetable and irresponsible financing).
thats the best thing a republican has ever done! i commend him! if that was grueliani, then this wouldn't happen.
Don't believe the bullshit. Pataki is in favor of studying a Second Avenue subway and pushing it so far in the future it never happens. It's 1967 and 1950 all over again.
Well, I'll believe Pataki once the groundbreaking starts.
Just like I'll believe all this LiPA stuff 5 years from now when my rates are low, and the lights are still on in the summer. I don't think that's gonna happen either.
Frankly, I don't see a third term in Pataki's future, though I'm sure he'll dangle a 2nd ave line in front of everyone to get it.
I really wish the politicians (ALL OF THEM) would cut the crap and build the damm thing already.
What's to study? They've had the plans sitting for a few decades.
I'd hate to want to see how these clowns (and the "transportation planning" types) would have handled things in 1900 - we'd probbly have a single light rail line from Wall Street to 34th street, and super clogged superhighways all over.
And I highly doubt NYC would be the major city it is now.
[Frankly, I don't see a third term in Pataki's future, though I'm sure he'll dangle a 2nd ave line in front of everyone to get it.]
Think so? He's a true mediocrity, but I'm not sure the voters have caught on to that yet.
[I'd hate to want to see how these clowns (and the "transportation planning" types) would have handled things in 1900 - we'd probbly have a single light rail line from Wall Street to 34th street, and super clogged superhighways all over.]
Bottom line: just about the entire subway system was built in the 40 years since the government took it over; in the 60 years since, virtually nothing has been done. It seems that London is about to privatize the system, and we should do the same.
If you were to privatize the system it will lose the state funding it receives. For example new jersey transit is a private company and not owned by the state they do however get funds from the state but not a much as if it was owned by the state they receive funding because it is called new jersey transit
If NJT is a private company, why is its website saying that the corporation is owned by the State of New Jersey, with a 7 member board of directors appointed by the governor?
Actually, Pataki has chosen to reserve judgement on the proposed bond act that will finance the 2nd Avenue Subway.
[Actually, Pataki has chosen to reserve judgement on the proposed bond act that will finance the 2nd Avenue Subway.]
The article I read said that he had withheld his approval until he was sure that the actual bond issue was free of local pork. And he promised that if the bond issue isn't passed or isn't satisfactory, he would find the financing elsewhere.
Of course, one has to question whether he actually intends to build it in the first place . . .
What i'd like to know is if the 2nd avenue has been discussed for so long and almost constructed in the 1970's why do about 1 billion dollars have to be spent to design and more studies? this is rediculous. IF the line were in construction phase during the 70's weren't blueprints drawn up and studies done, how much could changed between then and now? I could see utility lies possibly added since then but sewer and other infrastructure couldn't have dramatically changed. By the time the 2nd ave line is started costs will have shot up causing another reason for delay. So lets just say that if anything 30 years will pass before anything is done, lets face it the line will never be completed. Lexington Avenue riders will have to continue enduring cattle car conditions unless THEY speak louder at the POLLS and let the politicians know they want some action done and not more STUDYING done one ghost subway line. It probably will be a century before this line is ever started I won't say COMPLETED.
It will be completed when the current cycle shifts back towards public works as opposed to NIMBYism and general obstructionism. It isn't happening now however. They're just trying to scam taxpayers out of their money. I'm sure the politicians working on paying for these studies are in bed with the consultants and will get a cut of the loot.
[What i'd like to know is if the 2nd avenue has been discussed for so long and almost constructed in the 1970's why do about 1 billion dollars have to be spent to design and more studies? this is rediculous. IF the line were in construction phase during the 70's weren't blueprints drawn up and studies done, how much could changed between then and now? I could see utility lies possibly added since then but sewer and other infrastructure couldn't have dramatically changed. By the time the 2nd ave line is started costs will have shot up causing another reason for delay. So lets just say that if anything 30 years will pass before anything is done, lets face it the line will never be completed. Lexington Avenue riders will have to continue enduring cattle car conditions unless THEY speak louder at the POLLS and let the politicians know they want some action done and not more STUDYING done one ghost subway line. It probably will be a century before this line is ever started I won't say COMPLETED.]
Yes, it's been studied *twice*; the plans exist, and the $1 billion (which is far more than it would take to study it even if they needed to) is a total scam.
Part of the expense will cover the time it will take to actually read all of the old studies.
[Part of the expense will cover the time it will take to actually read all of the old studies.]
LOL--I don't think there's any question that there's work involved, but $1 billion is nevertheless ridiculous!
If discussing the Second Avenue Subway gets the LIRR to GCT built, then it will have done its job. Then the Second Avenue EIS could say the Second Avenue Subway need not be built because everyone with a job is going to move out to Long Island where there is decent mass transit connections to Midtown.
[If discussing the Second Avenue Subway gets the LIRR to GCT built, then it will have done its job. Then the Second Avenue EIS could say the Second Avenue Subway need not be built because everyone with a job is going to move out to Long Island where there is decent mass transit connections to Midtown.]
The fact that they're spending $4.8 billion, more than half the cost of the Second Avenue subway, to benefit 160,000 LIRR commuters when 1.4 million Lexington Avenue Subway commuters are in a sardine can is obscene. LIRR riders are already subsidized to an insane degree; what I don't understand is why the City doesn't use its veto power to block the project.
[If you were to privatize the system it will lose the state funding it receives. For example new jersey transit is a private company and not owned by the state they do however get funds from the state but not a much as if it was owned by the state they receive funding because it is called new jersey transit]
Not necessarily true. For example, NYC's private bus companies receive subsidies. In an ideal world, there would be few subsidies at all, public or private. But we don't live in one. Roads receive massive subsidies, and as a matter of fairness and practicallity similar subsidies have to be allocated to rail.
And, in any case, his premise that NJT is private is incorrect. As I noted in my previous post on this, NJT is owned by the State of New Jersey.
[And, in any case, his premise that NJT is private is incorrect. As I noted in my previous post on this, NJT is owned by the State of New Jersey.]
True
[Don't believe the bullshit. Pataki is in favor of studying a Second Avenue subway and pushing it so far in the future it never happens. It's 1967 and 1950 all over again.]
But people *will* start asking questions five years from now--I hope.
(But people *will* start asking questions five years from now--I hope).
Because of all the debt the MTA will be taking on, when 2005 rolls around people will be told that not only will no cars be purchased for five years, but if any money is spent on new projects (other than finishing the almost-done LIRR to GCT) the rest of the system will fall apart. If there is a recession, there will be no new investment AND the rest of the system will fall apart.
[If there is a recession, there will be no new investment AND the rest of the system will fall apart.]
The evntual scenario, since eventually there will be one.
I posted some detail about this on the BusTalk side. Not too much about subways, except R-142s being tested on Dyre Ave, AND for Doug the BMT man a shot of last years 5 boro bike tour in May.
Mr t__:^)
check it out
But they're not the subway companies.
And the IND (as a subway operator) was never a stock corporation.
Cute.
cant have everything
[But they're not the subway companies.]
FYI:
IRT = IRT Property Company, an Atlanta-based REIT involved in the development and management of community shopping centers in the Southeast.
IND = American Industrial Property, a Taxas-based REIT involved in the development of light industrial properties.
BMT = Blackrock Insured Municipal Term Trust, a NYC-based mutual fund.
A new club has been created for the R-142 fans in us all!
Click Here to Join the R-142 Club
This is serious, no jokes!
R142 Boi 2K
Folks--
Check out http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us/noprot/travelad.htm (can't find my instructions to create the link, sorry. But they're here somewhere...)
The short version is this:
Inaugural special: Saturday, April 15, noon-6 PM
Full service Sunday, April 16.
I'll wait till things calm down before I take my first ride.
Michael
the link for creating this goes like
< A H R E F = " [address here] " > TEXT HERE < / a >
so the link for that site would be:
Click HERE to go to the site
Too many spaces.
<A HREF="address here">TEXT HERE</a>
I was always wondering, because I will be going to Penn station on this Saturday, do the Dual-modes run on weekends? also, some lines like Speonk and Oyster bay have Dual-modes to Penn Station, does the Montauk have any? I mean from Montauk all the way to Penn Station?
Yes and No. From my observations near Wantagh on Saturday and Sunday mornings, the dual modes (the 500's) show up on the east end of scheduled trains sometimes, using the diesel mode and presumably not going to/from Penn Station. Through Wantagh on weekend mornings we sometimes see what I call "driver ed," eight-coach trains, with a 500 on each end rushing along the Babylon Branch, then soon returning at high speed. They often sound like they are in electric mode. I would be surprised that any weekend service is given to/from Penn Station with the dual-modes. It should be easy to check the timetables for that, as through dual mode service lacks the "Change at Jamaica" footnote. On weekdays, one often sees a 500 in service where you would expect a 400. You probably realize that weekend railfanning on the LIRR is much tamer than seeing a Friday afternoon rush. Best wishes.
Per the schedule, there is no dual mode service running through to Penn on the weekends. There are 4 dual mode trains in each direction during the week. One each to/from Speonk and Oyster Bay, and two on the Port Jefferson branch.
Does anyone know how many 500 series (dual mode) engines LIRR has?
I read there are 23 or 26 DM engines, though the highest # I've seen was 518.
Thanks, Henry --
I wonder if they've all been delivered yet or if they're all working. I was sure that they'd introduce a few more DM trips with the March schedule, but there's still only 4 inbound AM and 4 outbound PM. So that's only 8 of the DM locos in use at any time.
Chuck
Hmm... can't they get better utilization of their coveted dual mode equipment than 1 trip per rush? Do the DMs run a large portion of the electrified territory express? Assuming they do (they should!) then wouldn't they be able to get more than one trip out of the oyster bay set?
That assumption would only apply to a short distance type of route.
The PJ-NYP route is probably 60 miles in length so that only a one way trip per rush and not even a round trip is possible.
I guess you couldn't if you want those trains to be heading in at the peak of the rush.
It is possible on PJ line! Leave PJ at 5:44 AM, arrives in Penn at 7:20. Allot lots of time for error, leaves at 9:16, arrives in PJ at 11:10. Allot lots more time for error, leaves PJ at 1:10 PM. Arrives in NYP at 3:09. Allot still more time, leave at 4:19 or 4:49 PM. Stay in PJ until next day. Midday service is achievable with only one train.
Layover at Penn from 7:20 till 9:16 during the rush? I think that is poor utilization of equipment!
And wouldn't that clog up the platforms? I suppose he means laying up in one of the NYC yards.
Put it in westside. And anyway, I didn't come up with this out of the blue. The 1998 brest cancer victory direct train from NYC to Port Jervis left at that time +- 5 minutes on a Monday. It was the same equipment as the 5:44 AM from Port Jefferson, arrival at Penn 7:20 AM. It would have to be, since at that time it was the only dual mode train on the LIRR. They did it then, they can do it now.
I meant Port Jefferson, not Jervis.
[some lines like Speonk and Oyster bay have Dual-modes to Penn Station, does the Montauk have any? I mean from Montauk all the way to Penn Station?]
No. Speonk's as far east as they go.
I remember back around 1993 I saw a strange sign on one of the stations along Central Park West with a "C" blue sign and believe it or not a "B" blue sign does any other stations have different signs with color of incorrect routes. If you know write to me.
At Stillwell Avenue, the B and D signs in the vicinity of the passageway above the platforms. They're yellow instead of the correct orange.
I guess this dates back to the time when the B and D were running up Broadway instead of 6th Avenue because of something happening on the Manhattan Bridge.
Are you sure it was a blue "B" and not a blue "K"?
Even though the K had been discontinued by then (in early 1988 actually) some of the stations along CPW may have still had the blue "K" on either the entrance of on the station signs (people or should I say vandals would always peel off the new route signs and reveal the previous ones).
The lineup button consoles at 125th St. still referred to the K for the 168th St.-bound local lineup as late as 10/98. IIRC, that particular button was marked, "B/K". I wonder if they've changed it, now that the B and C have swapped terminals.
If one is BK, is the other one McD?
I seem to remember this, too.
It was either 86th or 96th, and the sign had *three* route indicators, none of which was K. Perhaps blue B-circle, blue C-diamond, and orange B-circle.
all diamond
I know some cars cannot show certain routes correctly. R68s can only show Q in Broadway colors. A few R46s can show the R only in a Brown Circle. One can only show it in a brown diamond R. Some R26's have Grey 5 signs.
I once saw a Not in Service 5 signed up as a Green SS.
[Some R26's have Grey 5 signs. ]
Why grey?
Arti
Gray was the color used for the #5 line before they color-coded the lines in the late 1970's.
Actually, the #5 started off as black when the first color-coded maps came out in 1967-1968. I believe it went to grey with the 1972 map.
It is my opinion that what appears to be a grey sign on the R26/R28 cars is actually a green sign that has faded due to exposure to the sun. Certain colors and dyes tend to discolor/fade faster than others. I wonder if any R29 #6 signs look grey...
Wayne
The color for the #5 from 1967 to 1979 was black and was shown as such on the 1967,68 and 69 subway maps. It was those computer designed maps which first appeared in 1972 which caused the confusion.The #5 was shown as a black disc in the route guide section. However on the map itself black dots indicated the subway stops so it was necessary to lighten up the black to a rather dark gray. The front of the map cover did however shown both the B and 5 in a gray circle.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[It was those computer designed maps which first appeared in 1972 ]
Did they really use computers for design in 1972? What computers?
Arti
I still see the yellow Q's and even saw an orange N and an orange R believe it or not. And, check this out, I see the F paired along with the G & R on the signs entering Elmhurst Ave, Grand Ave/Newtown, Woodhaven Blvd, etc etc, along Queens Blvd. As you know, the F goes express through those stations.
Late nights, the F runs local.
-Hank
Oh that's right, I forgot about that. Tanx Hank.
How about the E F G N sign at the entrance to Kew Gardens in the underpass next to the parkway. The N never went past 71st, and the G never went past there until after the R was sent out there, and then cut out at nights.
My guess is that they simply used a sign that was made up for 71st, Roosevelt, or Queens Plaza.
I also forgot to post this sign that I remember seening to at 168 Street station entrace their are some "B" letters signs shown their.
When I was younger I would always look at signs in the stations because you were able to see the old route, destination,etc..because they would just stick new stickers on top of the old ones.I'm pretty sure I remember seeing (underneath) a sign that the G and the N were going to go to archer avenue and that's probably why you saw that at kew gardens station.
You're not imagining things! The original signs on the Archer Ave Extension had more 'service notes' than 'The Map'! All they did was sticker them over. I don't know if these signs are still there, but they mentioned the G going down the line Rush Hours.
-Hank
F runs local late nights and weekends
At 86th and cpw street there is a blue diamond
I arrived home today to find, to my surprise, a present from the NYC Transit Museum: A full color 2000 calendar! It has some terrific pictures, though most of them are of current generation cars, buses, stations, etc., so it doesn't really compete with our friend Newkirk Images' calendar -- I'll hang them both!
I don't know how non-members can receive one, but you might try the Museum stores. (I am a Contributing Member of the Museum, so I can't even tell you if all members got one.)
I am very impressed that they even got one of my pet peeves right: It's "Daylight SAVING Time" (not SAVINGS).
My grandmother got this too and sent it to me. I already had the other one so I probably won't use it. Why did people like my grandmother and you get one? The letter with it says "Dear Employees".
Mine said "Dear Supporter of the NYC Transit Museum..." I am a Contributing Charter Member. Perhaps some of our fellow SubTalkers have more information.
My Grandmother is a member of the museum, not sure if she supports it. Other question for you or any other SubTalker and that is why did we get this in April? I'm never gonna use this as a calandar because I got it once a third of the year was already over.
We have a family membership and received the calender about a week ago. I had assumed that it had just arrived because our membership had recently been renewed.
And, Todd, wasn't the EST/DST concept changed several years ago making EST the proper term all year regardless of the time change? (Or is it a case of deficient memory?)
I got the calandar, too. It is because I am a New York Transit Museum Member.
Chaohwa
Wait a minute..It's APRIL. That calendar is shorting you 3 months!
-Hank
I rec'd mine back in November. But then, I know a person who knows a person who works for the NYCTA.
04/06/2000
I am a Transit Museum member and I received one too. Picture quality doesn't measure up to the genuine article!
BTW- YUP, am working on 2001 and all color images have been chosen. Can't say what they're like, but the front cover is interesting. Sorry, have to keep you all in suspense until the summer!!
Bill Newkirk
You got yours late, Todd. Mine came in the mail early last month.
They were also free for the taking at the museum about a month ago, too.
Speaking of the museum, when IS it supposed to close for renovations now, anyway?? It keeps getting put off ....
--Mark
As Mark said they were also avail. at the Brooklyn TA Museum store, free for the taking.
You can tell that I'm a rail fan if you come to my office since there are FIVE calendars hanging:
- Bill Newkirk's
- LIRR
- WABCO
- TA Bus
- TA general ... the one of this thread
And this month I see: LIRR M-1's going to Long Beach; M-1 at Jamaica; power washing a RTS wheels; New Flyer signed for M103; SBR move on Bay Ridge.
Mr t__:^)
wow!!! cHECK OUT mISS jUNE!!!!!
-hANK
hANK,
Are you referring to the train or the operator? I think the train's a hippo, and the operator's a man.
Anyway, I kinda prefer the 2nd (lower) September model!
I haven't seen the calendar, So I guess I'm talking about the train. I was joking, you know...
-Hank :)
A couple of years ago, I found a copy of the 1998 Subway Guide. I found it on the bridge that carries Queens Boulevard over the Sunnyside Yard.
Today, I found a calendar. On the front it says "TRACK 2000" and has a picture of the vacuum train in front of Yankee Stadium. It is most likely a mixed image because the tracks don't turn in front of Yankee Stadium the way they do in the picture. The Yankee Stadium part has the "24 World Championships" banner, and the "Louisville Slugger" smokestack to its right.
The picture was taken from the vicinity of 157th Street and Ruppert Place. There are no subway tracks in that area. The nearest subway tracks are above River Avenue, 1 block east.
The calendar had pictures of people who worked for different departments under the division of Track.
Anyway, I think those were good finds.
Ugly MultiCulti March 2000 Subway maps?
What the Hell is the MTA thinking?
The MTA is just trying to be multi-cultural.
R142 Boi 2K
Does anyone know where and when the R33 and R29 fan trips will be? Also, will this be like the R26 Fan trip when they put the cars on the B-Division like B4? As a matter of fact, A motorman I know, had pics of a Redbird on the F line on the last fan trip.
Lets just hope that the R33 Singles fan trip isn't in the summer. Whew, or if it is, they add an AC to it, or take off the roof.
may i ask what a fantrip is ??
It's like a charter bus,except you charter the train and bring it to places that you can photograph it. You have fan that are willing to pay the extra $$ to ride it one more time.
BTW, one fan trip I was on was the Q's on the Third Ave El in the Bronx. Our train died on Gun Hill Road. We could not find a car knocker with Q car experience.
Q's on the Bronx Third Av El?? Was that part of a big fantrip throughout the city? The Q's last ran on the Myrtle so I assume they were kept at the train yard at Bway Junction. It must've taken a whole day to get up to the 3rd Av El.
The Qs ran on the 3rd Ave. el in express service until the el was abandoned in 1955, then went back to the BMT. There was a farewell trip of sorts back then, but I'm not sure if the Qs were used.
do they run fan trips in the fall ??
Open all the windows and open all the storm doors. (They have that little hook to lock the doors open.) Put the fans on full and a great breeze will go through the cars.
Hope car 9336 is not on the train. Looks like a regular R33 (no center lighting track, no blinking lights).
If this fan trip should happen, it would be the last fan trip on equipment that needs to be painted. Everything now is unpainted metal.
Maybe they would repaint a car or two in older paint schemes? Blue-Silver, World's Fair? Unlikely, though I'd like to see a blue-silver car run the NYC transit system again.
I'm told that during the Gunn era, when the R-36 cars were being painted into what are now called Redbird colors, the folks at the Coney Island paint shop volunteered to paint the R-36s back into World's Fair colors -- and were turned down. It's unlikely that things have changed since.
David
Think it would have been kool to see the WF cars in their orginal colors with the old TA logo don't like the new MTA logo that buses and subways are wearing now.
My 2 favorite TA logos in order were the Blue and Red TA and the Multicolored M. A close third is MSBA's italic MSBA in Orange and Blue aligned with the stripe. Now it's just Long Island Bus. How creative.
also what is a fan-trip...?? is it extra trains when sports events are run ??
04/09/2000
also what is a fan-trip...?? is it extra trains when sports events are run ??
No Salaam, a Fan Trip is one charter train, usually chartered by a group. As stated before, a premium price is paid by the group through ticket sales for a special charter on a prearranged schedule of photo stops and photo run-bys. You would like the the photo run bys, which benefits movie and video photographers.
Fan trips are rare these days on the TA usually because of high insurance cost. Add to this General Orders for repairs on certain lines and out of service "Museum" cars that would make a fan trip special.
The Electric Railroaders Association here in New York put on some great fan trips years ago. My favorite was the "Farewell to the Jamaica El fantrip. With the closing of Jamaica-168th St and a few stations south, the ERA chartered D-types in the morning trip to Jam-168, lunch at Coney Island-Stillwell and B-types for a final trip to Jam-168 for the afternoon segment. Two types of museum cars and lunch at Nathan's, those were the good old days!
Bill Newkirk
one day i hope to be lucky enough to be there when a fan trip goes down !!
and will there be any museum or fan trips this year ( if you have the info ) thank you !!
sure would like to participate in this !! thank you mr newkirk !!
04/10/2000
Salaam,
With 2004 on the horizon, the NYC Subway system will be celebrating 100 years of subway service. There had better be some Museum cars up and running to commemorate this. Our subway will mark 100 years only once, if a government grant or private sponsership be needed to see the B & D types as well as the R1-9's running so be it.
There are no fan trips on the horizon, but I predict a farewell to the Redbirds fantrip sometime in the future. The last farewell to the Redbirds was with the R-30's in May of 1993. So I'm pretty sure a fitting farewell to the IRT Redbirds will be a must! Just keep yourself tuned here, a fantrip would be announced.
Bill Newkirk
LOL@add an AC or take off the roof. I'd love to go on an R-33 fan trip. The first train I ever rode, back in August 1978 at the age of 3 months, was an R-33 7. "Wow he remembers that???" lol, no just guessing, but I know it was the 7. I will miss these cars in a way, yet, I look forward to the R62's on the 7 line. I can now see silver instead of red out my window 2 long blocks away from Roosevelt ave.
There aren't any fantrips such as these planned right now, to the best of my knowledge.
The Redbird pictures you may have seen were likely the "Farewell to the R-30 Fantrip" in May of 1993. The R-30s were the "Redbirds" of the IND/BMT Division and generally have the same dimensions of the other 60' cars (R-32, 38, 40 and 42).
--Mark
Hi All,
I'm a huge subway buff but don't post here very often- I'm a 10th grader and am doing a report as well as an oral history (possible interviews with SubTalkers) on the subway. I have narrowed the topics down to two specific aspects.
1. The construction methods and engineering feats of the subway (Including all three divisions)
or...
2. The way the subway has effected the neighboorhoods that it runs through. I have heard that Washington Heights etc... had been a very affluent neghboorhood in the past and could try to make a connection between the infiltration of mass transit and "decline" of the neighboorhood.
Personally I find the construction and engineering process to be much more interesting and was wondering what your opinions were. Which do you feel will be easier to research and interview people on? The subway brought many novel technologies to the world when it was created that are still being used in engineering today.
Thanks for your input and feedback...
Please tell me if I could interview you for either of these topics.
-Harry
2. The way the subway has effected the neighboorhoods that it runs through. I have heard that Washington
Heights etc... had been a very affluent neghboorhood in the past and could try to make a connection between the
infiltration of mass transit and "decline" of the neighboorhood.
Personally I find the construction and engineering process to be much more interesting and was wondering what
your opinions were. Which do you feel will be easier to research and interview people on? The subway brought
You could try to make that connection, but it wouldn't stick. If
anything, rapid transit *made* neighborhoods, especially in the
outer boroughs.
Stick to construction and engineering. There is a lot more primary
material on those topics, starting with the book that the IRT
put out ca 1910, which has been scanned and loaded somewhere on
this (nycsubway.org) site.
Your question 2 is actually quite complicated, and perhaps not answerable in the context of a high school paper. (Indeed, perhaps nobody knows the answer . . . .)
The advent of transit certainly created many neighborhoods such as Manhattann above e.g. 96th St. and the Bronx. Transit existed in Washington Heights for many decades before that neighborhood went into "decline". It is very likely that the problems in Washington Heights are independent of the existance of the subway, but one can argue it either way. A similar situation holds for the Bronx, which was a desirable neighborhood in the '30s and '40s -- long after mass transit was built there.
Sometimes the installation of mass transit can cause a neighborhood to go up. The best example I can think of is the Davis Square area in Somerville, MA (Boston). Boston's Red Line was brought to Davis Square in the mid-1980s when it was a dying, working-class shopping district. After the opening of the subway there, it became a mecca for young people, drawn by cheap rents and a slightly funky ambience. Now it is the East Village of Boston, filled with hip bars and clubs, and rents in the area are very much higher than those in similar areas with no transit, and no cachet.
On the other hand, there are plenty of areas with subway access and absolutely no cachet. I think you could argue that subway access and neighborhood quality are independent variables.
Take Lower East Side.
Arti
The advent of transit certainly created many neighborhoods such as Manhattann above e.g. 96th St. and the Bronx. Transit existed in Washington Heights for many decades before that neighborhood went into "decline". It is very likely that the problems in Washington Heights are independent of the existance of the subway, but one can argue it either way. A similar situation holds for the Bronx, which was a desirable neighborhood in the '30s and '40s -- long after mass transit was built there.
Indeed. The Grand Boulevard & Concourse became "the place to be" when the IND Concourse Line opened beneath it in the mid-1930s.
In addition, the argument that a subway line causes a neighborhood to decline is not new. In 1929, Joseph McKee used that same argument to try to get the Els already established in the outer boroughs torn down. From my History of the Independent Subway:
Joseph McKee, president of the Board of Alderman in 1929, was not in favor of the elevated portions in the outer boroughs. He felt it would depreciate property values and slow business and residential development, and used the IRT Jerome Ave El as an example. He felt the Els would have to be replaced later on; they were a menace to traffic. Never mind that the cost of an El was estimated to be 1/4 that of a new subway. It turned out that building an El doubled land values, but a subway would increase land values from 4 to 12 times!
--Mark
What might make an interesting paper is a comparison of the construction methods employed by all three divisions (IRT, BMT and IND) and how they "matured" over the years.
--Mark
I agree with the others that accurately measuring the impact of transit on a neighborhood is well beyond the scope of any high school paper. Stick with engineering feats.
As a specific note, though, I'll offer up the suggestion that the decline in Washington Heights came more from the combination of drugs and easy access to the GW bridge than from all other sources combined.
Flame Bait!
Now that I've lured you with a deceptive Subject line, let
me get to my real complaint, about Subtalk Posters. Not
the individuals on this discussion forum, but the car cards
put out by the MTA bearing the "SubTalk" title.
Some of these are marginally useful, such as the MetroCard
instructions. Others are inane. I believe the current top
prize for poor composition and grammar goes to the following:
PLEASE DON'T SLIP, TRIP OR FALL.
They are the leading cause of accidents, both here and
in the bathtub.
It troubles me to no end that someone, or perhaps several people,
actually received payment to draft this drivel. What the hell
does it mean??!! Discarding the lame attempt at humor, which
ranks up there with the podiatrist's ad that says "...great
strides (no pun intended) have been made in the field of podiatry...",
we have not only a dangling pronoun, but an incorrect analysis
of accident theory. Are slips, trips and falls causes of
accidents, or are they in fact the accident? Moreover, I don't
understand the logic of requesting that passengers PLEASE not
have an accident?!
What's next? "Please, don't have a heart attack, stroke or
epileptic seizure" Oy!
"Flame Bait" indeed !
As you may know from my previous comments, I'm selective about what I click on. So I think here's a serious fellow, who I also consider a friend, must be a post of profound significance ... you got me.
Mr t__:^)
A good one, Jeff!
I have also wondered if the SubTalk Poster telling you what to do if your Metrocard doesn't work encourages crime: Please Swipe Again.
As for the grammar, we all know that a preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with. VEY!
I just saw a commercial that had a quick clip of an R40 displaying an orange circle on the front, but the clip was over before I caught the letter. I think it might have been the F. What lines does the R40 run on?
It would have to have been a Q; not an F.
Slant R40 can be found on the "Q", "N" and "L" lines. On the weekends, the "B" line has one or two trains of them.
Straight-ended R40, also known as R40M, can be found on the "J", "L",
"M" and "Z" lines.
Wayne
Of course if the film clip was 30 years old it could've been the "F" as if I remember correctly they started on the "F".
But I think when they ran on the F it was with the big rectangular color block with the huge letter F. By the time the Slants got the circle lettering, they were over on the A.
And it weren't ORANGE, either - it was Magenta. You are correct - they got the bullet sign when they were transferred from Jamaica-Yard to Pitkin/207th Street in 1977.
Wayne
Wasn't that about the time the R-42s were also fitted with bullet signs as well? I think they redid both of those car classes at the same time.
I remember very well the first time I tried to identify an F train of slant R-40s at 34th St. My mother had to point out the humungous magenta F to the right of the storm door; I was looking for signs above the storm door.
The R-40s premier on the Q Line mostly, with some on the L as well, on the weekend you can see some on the B and L, and at least on two separate occassions I've seen a set on the J line But that was during the GO.
R142 Boi 2K
Forgot about the N line too!
R142 Boi 2K
The M does get a rare R40 slant set from time to time. The M was pure R40 slant during the Williamsburg bridge closure at only 4 cars per train!
Nick
Not a single slant R40 set has run on the J line in at least a decade. The only slants on the Eastern Division are regularly assigned to the L. A few from time to time run on the M, but this is unusual.
Since I ride the L train twice daily, I can say with much gusto that the R-40's (both slant and modified) are happily running almost exclusively on the Canarsie line. The J Line also has some R-40's, but for whatever reasons the slant-R40's are a rare site on the Jamacia line.
Doug aka BMTman
I believe the Slant R40 lacks the "Z" sign, so they choose not to run them on the "J" and "Z" lines. I have never seen a Slant R40 on the "J" or "Z". The R40M and R42 both have "Z" signs in their rolls.
Recently, R40 #4370 thru #4397, a total of 28 cars, have transferred from Coney Island to the Eastern Division and make their homes on the "L"; that's enough rolling stock for 3 1/2 full consists.
Wayne
What did Coney Island get as a result of the switch?
That's a good question! As far as I know - nothing, since these belonged to the "Q" fleet. This move was reported in the NY Era Bulletin but did not state a reason or mention a corresponding reverse move from Coney Island.
Wasn't one set of Slant R40 damaged by cascading water during the Union Square water main break a month or so ago?
Wayne
Yep, this is why no slant R40 has appeared on the J line for as long as I can remember. The slants were GOH'd before the R40M/R42, probably before the Z route was planned.
The L and Q with occasional apperances on the B, D, and N.
Not currently on the "D" - their entire fleet works out of Concourse Yard, where no Slant R40 shows its shovel nose.
The other lines, Yes.
Wayne
Why were the R110s past up? R110A IRT looks almost identical to the 142s a few minor changes but overall the same car built by kawasaki where are they? The R110B for the IND division built by bombarder now sits in 207th st yard and has not left the yard in 2yrs and yes both companys are producing the R142s. So all you happy R142 fans don't celebrate yet besides you will still have to deal with redbirds for at least another 3 to 5 more years.
R-110s were not really past up, they were the brain children for the R142-R142A-R143 Order.
The R-110A is somewhere wonder around the 239th Street Yard the last time I saw it. As for the R-110B it makes one weekday daily trip on the "C" line leaving 168th at 9:56a or 10:06a to Euclid and Back to 168th, Every once in a blue it'll make the 1:43 out of 168th Street.
R142 Boi 2K
Ok I'll buy that but everytime I go to 207th st the R110s are in the repair house useually broken up 4 of the cars are in the back of the house the others are on the yard tracks I went inside the ones in the house and power was cut on them like they were sitting there I went back 2 days later still in the same place does not look like they were being used they did however they did have "C" line route signs displayed. But if they are using this train don't you think they would run it on the "A" line instead of a local?
With only six working cars, there aren't enough R-110Bs left to run on the A line, so for now, they can only run on the C.
What do you mean by six working cars? I have it as six cab cars and three trailers. The cars that are in the repair house look like they are not moved they are facing the rear entrance of the pit area
Yes Six cars, when they run them on the C line, which is just about daily, the run in a ABAABA consist.
I have slides of this to prove this fact, recent ones like within the past month!
R142 Boi 2K
I have slides of this to prove this fact, recent ones like within the past month!
If you can, please submit these slides to Dave so we can see them in the Illustrated car roster. -Nick
Why can't they run all nine cars? It was running the A line when it was deliverd for testing. I was at 207th yard today 4 R110s behind a row of R38s having work done.
These cars are used for spare parts for the other six cars....
BM34x
It's not a ten car train, so that means that there is a 5-car R-110B rolling around, which makes no since because how and where are you gonna run a 5-car B Division train sent.
Maybe that was part of the 6 Car set, while the 4 cars sat outside, the other two where inside for maintenance, because they can't run a 5-Car R-110B while 4 Cars sit in the yard. Only 9-Cars where built. And only 3 cars became spare part cars.
R142 Boi 2K
Two cabs and one trailer were cannibalized for parts.
Was there ever a time that the Brighton Beach local ran only between Coney Island and Franklin Ave. over the tracks of what is now the Franklin Ave. Shuttle ? If so, what was the time period ?
There was both local and express at various time and on various days from Franklin Avenue down the Brighton, terminating at Kings Highway, Brighton Beach, Coney Island or via the Sea Beach to the Nassau Loop.
However, the implication of your question is: "a time when all the Brighton Locals went to Franklin Avenue, and all the Expresses via DeKalb."
Yes, on Saturdays c.1963. It was the final stage before Saturday Brighton Express service was ended for good. The regular express fleet of Triplexes provided the Franklin Local service, while R27/30s provided the Express service to Manhattan.
A couple of questions: Were the Triplexes on the Franklin local signed up as #7s? Also, the R-27s on the express ran local in Manhattan on Saturdays, Q signs and all, correct?
4/10/2000
[Were the Triplexes on the Franklin local signed up as #7s? ]
i've seen some black and white slides of the D-Types on the Brighton-Franklin and they were indeed signed up #7.
Bill Newkirk
Yes, the Triplexes were signed 7 on the Saturday opeation and the R27s were signed Q. On Sunday the R27s were signed QB.
All Brighton line trains used the shuttle tracks before the Flatbush Ave connection was built between Dekalb Ave. and Prospect Park, opening in 1920. Until then, the only way Brighton line trains could access Manhattan was via a connection to the Fulton St el just north of the present day Franklin Ave. terminal.
As Paul states in his response, weekend summer service from Franklin to Coney Island continued until 1963, but this service went express south of Prospect Park.
In its last few years, Summer Sunday Brighton Franklin service ran local, so that there were two Brighton Locals on Sunday. I don't know what the point of this was except to slow service and make the service less attractive and hasten its complete discontinuance.
Does anyone know where I can get the posted answers to the recent motorman exam? I think they were posted recently in 'The Chief' but I didn't buy it. Is there an online posting of answers??
Thanks
Is there an online posting of questions?
Other than Baltimore, National Capital, Seashore, Shore Line, Arden, TMNY and Orange Empire does any other museum have air-electric PCC's in the collection? Baltimore has the only Pullman-Standard built standard 46 foot Air-Electric, all the others are St. Louies.
Also, Seashore has Pullmans in its collection, but they are all Boston cars, which have the left side center door. Therefore they are non-standard 46 foot air-electrics.
I think the Brooklyn trolley museum has two PCC's from Boston awaiting restoration sitting outside the musuem on the dock.
Yes, forgot about them. The Boston "Picture Window" PCC's were air-electrics. I also believe they are GE cars.
Question 2: Of the PCC's in museums, how many are Westinghouse and how many are GE.
Our (BSM) 7407 is a Westinghouse.
Hey Dan, will you be volunteering on Sunday May 14 next month?
Hoping to see you then.
B&QT #1000 (TMNY) and #1001 (Shoreline) are GE.
Actually, we have three of them down here. Two outside (3299 and 3321), and one inside being worked on (3303). And yep they definitely are AIR.
Technically, these are the third body style, which was used on this last Pullman order for Boston only. This series was the third to last (TTC and SFMuni were delivered after) North American PCC order delivered. This series was retired in 1986.
They are primarily GE equipment, but Westinghouse is all over in the ancilliaries.
Paso Del Norte Streetcar Preservation Society has 9 (NINE) 1937 air-electric "standard" cars in storage. San Diego has one also (a repatriation), and a restaurant in El Paso has one too.
The El Paso cars are Westinghouse, and were the first cars delivered to the West Coast when new for San Diego. The only real modifications they recieved is to get a LARy style controller installed in the rear and a front pole for the backwards movements to the carhouse from the line. I have a photo of one car with a unique LARy style pole on it.
Do you count the "Dallas Cars" by Pullman, or Red Arrows (I think that's what the SEPTA's by Brill are called), i.e. dbl enders.
Shoreline former T #3323; SEPTA #8, #18, #21 (I think one of these was traded away to another museum).
Mr t__:^)
The Red Arrow cars are not considered PCC cars, even though they have many PCC features. They do not have PCC trucks, so under the ERPCC/TRC rules, they don't count. Even San Francisco's Magic Carpet cars are not considered PCC by the same rule.
The Brill built Rad Arrow cars are conidered Brillliners, which is not a PCC.
The ex-Dallas/Boston double end cars are true PCC's.
Yet most visitors to a museum would think ... it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, gee it must be a duck ????
I thought the same about pre-PCC trolleys, but now I'm beginning to SEE that they aren't all the same.
Dan, I do understand where your question is comming from and am not trying to start something here, just haveing a little fun.
BTW, I assume the one "Clark" PCC was cut up ?
P.S. "The Brill built Rad Arrow cars are conidered Brillliners, which is not a PCC." Didn't they also make a single way version that looks like a PCC, but has circular windows on the doors, or was that still another firm ?
Mr t__:^)
The "Clark Bar" car, PCC 1000 is alive and in stais at TMNY. Check with them for current status.
Brill did build a single-end version of the Brillliner. 25 or so went to Atlantic City, 3 went to Philadelphia and 1 each went to Baltimore and Cincinatta as a single car test. No further were produced, and the Red Arrow cars were the last railcar production from Brill in 1941.
The basic problem with the Brillliner was that it was "close but no cigar". Close enough to the genuine article but with it's own problems. The Brill 99ER1 truck rode pretty well, but not as well as a Clark B2. The square ends caused some problems, for example 7501 (the Baltimore car) was barred from the Guilford Ave. Elevated because of the skirts. The car eventually got standard PCC resiliant wheels, but it's non-standard feature got it scrapped in the 56 purge. Cincinatti's went to scrap in1953 along with their 1 Pullman, as Toronto didn't want them when the bought the others in 1952.
Don't know whether its "Air-electric" or not, but the Rock Hill Trolley Museum has a former SEPTA PCC which was re-guaged recently from Philly Wide to Standard.
If anyone's interested, here is the link for
The Rockhill Trolley Museum
I've added to my list, thanks.
Tell me about the RT, Rapid Transit Car. Looks like you have some other interesting items there too.
Mr t__:^)
I Like that Brill subway car - I've never seen one like that. In fact, I never knew Brill built subway cars - only trolleys. It kind of looks like our long-lost Bluebird up front.
wayne
3323 is no longer with us. 18 and 21 sit outside in the traps put on by Bill W., and 8 resides in Barn 5, 53 Track. Remember the car that was behind the R-17 when she was stored temporarily there while 1602 got worked on in the shop?
#8 got a cosmetic paint job, and only one of it's trucks was regauged. She still needs to have the ther truck redone. The car only sees limited movement.
-Stef
Oops I meant to say tarps put on the car, not traps! Sorry.
[#8 got a cosmetic paint job, and only one of it's trucks was regauged. She still needs to have the there truck redone. The car only sees limited movement.]
SEPTA Brilliner #8, which I thought was 18, looks mighty fine inside & out (I was able to climb onboard recently), but the big DO NOT MOVE sign hints at what you said. I believe #21 is the one in rather poor shape ... I do like PCCs you know.
Mr t__:^)
The Halton County Radial Railway has a 1938 class A1 air electric PCC from Toronto in their collection. The car is in beautiful shape both cosmetically and operationally, but unfortunately sees very little use for no good reason.
-Robert King
Illinois Railway Museum has a CSL air-electric PCC.
Click here.
AND they have a pair of 1926-vintage, 65-ton, Pullman-Standard Illinois Central Heavy Metal MU Coaches (with Pantographs) which are undergoing restoration! WOW! Talk about rolling thunder!
Click here to view these behemoths.
The page says it's under construction but there are images on it - takes a minute or two to load.
NB. These beasts are of the same breed that had the October 30,1972 accident with the tin-can Bilevel. I can tell by the interior light fixtures.
Wayne
IRM didn't stop there. They also have several old "Big Orange" South Shore Pullmans. When they were first built, they weighed in at 60 tons apiece, then when they were lengthened during WWII, they gained an additional 15 tons. I doubt if even a BMT standard could withstand a collision with one of those hulks. A Triplex, maybe.
IRM's Blue Goose 4021, the lone survivor of CSL's prewar PCC fleet, was part of CTA's private collection for years. A few years back, CTA made it known they didn't want to keep their collection anymore and IRM stepped in. Also included in the acquisition was Old Pullman #460, a sister of 144 which IRM has had for a long time, and Seashore's 225 (I hope that's the right number). 4021 is decked out in its original paint scheme, but does not run and does not have its front destination curtain. It was originally built for two-man operation, but was converted for OPTO in 1952 and remains in this setup in that it has pedals (bicycle-type hand controls were used in the two-man setup), plus one center exit door was sealed off.
There was another IC site I wandered into during my travels, and one of the photos was of IC MU #1501, circa 1970, as delivered. Seeing the Pullman MUs and then seeing THIS....made my blood run cold.
Here's a picture of the above IC MU (Highliner), as delivered.
Wayne
I know what you mean. Looks can be deceiving.
It is tin, naught but tin. They can't even withstand minor collisions amongst themselves.
wayne
Maybe tinfoil would be a better word. Those 1926 Pullmans certainly ripped through those sleek newer cars as though they were tinfoil. You can't mess with the laws of physics, either, even if you never studied law.
Remember Doc Brown's response to Marty's suggestion in Back to the Furute II as they hovered over Biff's car while following him?
Marty: Let's land on him. We'll cripple his car.
Doc: Marty, he's in a '46 Ford; we're in a DeLorean. He'd rip through us like we were tinfoil.
I can't help but feel that a BMT standard would have ripped through an R-62 in the same manner.
75 Tons each! Geez, that's the SUPER-HEAVYWEIGHT class. What kind of motors did they have to pull THAT weight? How long were they originally and after the modification?
Triplex? Nah, would have flattened them too. Would have rode right up the sill and over the top. Munch! Slurp!
Wayne
All of the Big Orange South Shore cars were originally 60 feet long and weighed 60 tons apiece. They had four 210-horsepower motors (GE, IIRC) and rode on Baldwin trucks. Can you imagine the R-1/9s and R-10s having that kind of horsepower? Whoooooeeeee!!! Like other interurban cars of that era, those Pullmans had generous speed capabilities, and were able to max out at 90 mph. There was a story of how Sam Insull, who singlehandedly upgraded the North Shore and South Shore lines during the 1920s, while on his way back to Chicago from South Bend in 1931, wanted to know if his train could go any faster than the 85-90 mph it was doing even though the motorman had the controller up against the brass. The motorman started kicking in 5, maybe 10 pounds of air and kicking it off right away, inducing a pronounced vibration. Even though it slowed the train down somewhat, it had the desired effect.
A total of 18 cars out of 64 were lengthened during the late 40s. Some retained their coach-style windows while others received picture windows and air conditioning. These beasts grew to 77 feet in length and, as you observed, 75 tons. Their motors were more than capable of handling the extra weight, especially after roller bearings were installed at the same time. In addition, heavier rail was laid along the line - 115-pound, IIRC.
There is a picture in South Shore - the Last Interurban of a Pullman posed next to a Birney streetcar in South Bend. Talk about David and Goliath! That interurban, even at 60 feet in length, looks humungous next to that little streetcar.
I made one round trip to Chicago and back to South Bend on them on April 1 and 2, 1967, and for the life of me, I can't remember if they moaned and groaned the way New York's prewar subway cars did. My aunt rode on them many, many times, but even she couldn't give me a definitive answer. Having been built in the 1920s, they more than likely had spur-cut bull and pinion gears. I know the North Shore cars moaned and groaned; I saw and heard Shoreline's 709 during a trolley pageant in 1980.
P. S. Keep in mind that even after their metamorphosis, a single South Shore stretch Pullman weighed THIRTY TONS LESS than one Triplex unit. I'd still say it would have been a fair fight.
The Chicago car I think is 50' long and 9' wide
Yes, and its trucks were mounted 3 inches off center so that two of them could pass each other. Chicago's streetcar tracks were laid closer together than in other cities, even though they were standard gauge.
1 - Evan thanks for the link to IRM, I didn't have it bookmarked.
2 - At Shoreline we run #1001 to the end of the line, even though she has to go backwards with a pilot to come back. Last Fall there was a bunch of us enjoying the ride when someone heard over the radio that the Mets had made it into the playoffs (the Yanks were already in), so it was just the thing to happen during "Autumn in NY, A Subway Series"
isn't life great ?
Mr t__:^)
The air-electric PCC at TMNY, B&QT #1000, was built by Clark Equipment. Click here.
I was reading all the posts about how people wanted a Subtalk chat, well i put one on my site. It should work for all browers. It's on right now is anybody wants to talk. I am going to try to organize a chat meeting where we can talk to each other in real time. I though that 8 would be a good time. I will be in the chat at that time if anyone wants to say something to me. In order to get to the chat type
chat.cjb.net/metrocard *or* Just go to metrocard.cjb.net and then click 'MetroCard Chat'
Hope to "see" you at eight
Metrocard.cjb.net
That's the same type of chat that the Conrail kid had. Its great for large groups. I'll be there!
I'll see if I can get there.
Pgitty, I'd ask people to let you know when the best time is so we can meet once or twice a week at the time most SubTalkers are available. Personally, I like Wednesday and/or Saturdays at 8.
BTW: We may be at least 1 member short. King Solomon may not be able to get on if Shabbat hasn't ended. I was at evening services last night but can't tell you when it ends this week.
On a 3 train this morning I saw what had to be the most distasteful and just plain bad-taste advertisement of all time. It wasn't one of those "have you been injured" lawyers. It wasn't Dr. Zizmor. It wasn't even that soft-core spread for KC Reaction shoes. No, this ad, depicting doctors wearing these space-suit like outfits, was for the city's Hospitals and Health Care Corporation and touted the virtues of the public hospitals.
It's been well established that the city's ludicrously high expenditures on indigent health care - its Medicaid spending is greater than the entire state of California's - have left transit, among much else, starved for money. Were the city to lower its per capita Medicaid spending to the national average, with an adjustment for the area's higher cost of living, there'd be more than ample funds for the Second Avenue line ... and yes, people needing health care services would be cared for quite well.
Oh, and if things weren't bad enough already, I had always thought that the city had 13 public hospitals. The ad listed all of them. There are twenty.
They also advertise heavily on local TV stations. What a waste of money. It's a 3rd rate hospital system that is an enormous drain on the NYC economy.
[They also advertise heavily on local TV stations. What a waste of money. It's a 3rd rate hospital system that is an enormous drain on the NYC economy.]
It's hard to figure out just what the city hospitals are trying to accomplish by running ads. Certainly not because they're hoping to attract more patients. The city hospitals have a "captive audience" of people without health insurance. Anyone who could afford anything better would be more likely to consult a Madagascar witch doctor than visit a city hospital.
I think that they are trying to attract more insured patients. Notice how they portray the city hospitals as clean lovely places. Sort of the Starbucks of medicine.
[I think that they are trying to attract more insured patients. Notice how they portray the city hospitals as clean lovely places. Sort of the Starbucks of medicine.]
I was in the lobby at Bellevue one. It's the only hospital I've ever seen that was visibly filthy.
Back during 79-84 I was recruiting doctors out of residency training, or from private pratice with admitting privilages in city hospitals. Our unwritten policy was not to waste our time on these hospital, that the private hospitals have better training programs and better doctors on staff.
It was hard to find AMG's in city hospitals.
If it makes you feel any better Pete, the "private" "non-profit" hosptials have been draining us much more than the HHC, since Rudy whipped the HHC into shape.
The HHC laid off lots of people to cut back the bloat. As a result, while they used to require supplemental financing the city hospitals now break even on Medicaid alone, even though they care for the uninsured. The privates charge just as much for Medicaid and dump the uninsured on the HHC. They need the money to pay for all those buildings they built over the FDR in the 1980s, and all the people that staff them. The pay scale is also much higher in the privates.
[If it makes you feel any better Pete, the "private" "non-profit" hosptials have been draining us much more than the HHC, since Rudy whipped the HHC into shape.]
Do I feel better? Dunno, being ripped off by the "private" hospitals instead of by the city hospitals is sort of like losing your life savings at the casino from playing the slots instead of from playing blackjack. You're still broke, no matter what.
I know this has been discussed here before, BUT- could you take a set of PA units, and run them on the IRT, and vice-versa with,say, a train of Redbirds and put them on the PATH? Or would there be clearence problems somewhere? I know they both were made to the same 'general' set of specs, but this needs to be asked out of curiosity...
Also, just why was the IRT made smaller than 'normal' RR specs anyway? Economy? Or were the motors of the day not powerful enough? Or maybe they hoped to interchange with the Belmont-owned els someday? My guess would be the motors-the first sets of LIRR m.u.s were about the same size also...
>>>Also, just why was the IRT made smaller than 'normal' RR specs anyway?<<<
One of the reasons is that Belmont did not want the IRT to be able to run freight. Hence, the smaller dimensions.
Peace,
Andee
Why would Belmont not want the IRT to be able to run freight?
Maybe because he didn't want freight deliveries jamming up regular train service?
My understanding is that orignially the NY Times planned to deliver newspapers by subway.
The Brooklyn Eagle did.
-Hank
When was the last time someone floated the idea of delivering freight on the subway? I can't imagine when it would make sense, but somebody must have thought it would be a good idea for some situation.
[When was the last time someone floated the idea of delivering freight on the subway? I can't imagine when it would make sense, but somebody must have thought it would be a good idea for some situation.]
A friend of mine, a rail buff, suggested this to his mother, who works for the Times, when he was a child. She mentioned it to some contacts in the Lindsay administration, and believe it or not, they actually studied the notion.
I'm not 100% sure this is true. Wasn't mail and the New York Times delivered using the subway tracks during off peak hours?
--Mark
PATH is short but wide. IRT is short and narrow.
The IRT later connected to the els in the Bronx, which MAY explain the width of the cars...to fit on the Bronx el. It's only my theory.
> PATH is short but wide. IRT is short and narrow.
Well, it depends on what you're comparing it to. For nstance the PA-4's are 51'0 over the anticlimbers and 9' 2.75" wide, which falls into the "narrow" class (compared to the IND/BMT, anyway).
It was a trip to Budapest, I believe, that gave William Barclay Parsons his ideas for the NY subway. Didn't Budapest have a subway before 1900? Are its dimensions similar?
--Mark
According to
Metroplanet it was opened 1896 and uses fixed catenary.
Arti
The Budapest subway was built near the surface, with a flat tunnel roof. That's where that idea came from.
According to PATH Officials: A PATH train CAN ran on the IRT but an IRT train car can NOT run on PATH due to the profiles of the PATH cars. In fact, PATH advised that when they (PATH) use the Sperry Rail Car, they can use only one specific car due to clearance problems.
Does MTA South Brooklyn Railway (Sbk) use the West End Subway Line To the Coney Island yard for freight service.
I saw an ad yesterday on the 7 train advocating better transit for New York. In the ad, there was a Washington Metrorail train on the Red line. The sign on the car closest to the camera said "Rhode Island Ave," white text on red background. This is likely to be an old picture, dating to the time when WMATA was in its infancy. The last time I rode a WMATA train, (When the base fare was $1), I saw flipdot signs on the cars.
Here's my question:
Do any trains still use scroll signs, or have they all been converted to flipdots?
Except for the non revenue equipment (clearnace car, money cars) all rolling stock have been converted or delivered with the floppin dots.
All are flipdot. The Rohrs came with them but were changed when they turned out to be such a failure. See "The Story of Metro". It is out of print, but some libraries have it.
Wow that's gotta be old! The last time the Red Line terminated at Rhode Island Avenue was 1978.
Wayne
i couldn't believe it! with my own two eyes, i seen a few teens (probably cutting school) trying to vandalize an Astoria-bound N train this morning at Queens borrow plaza. they all got their markers readay to do some graffiti on the doors as they close. i guess the conducter was trying to fight them off with opening and closing the doors repeatedly, but that wasn't the case. another one of them hood rats held up the train in another car and did graffiti in another car. it was horrible! not to offend our young subtalkers but, these kids who have no direction are the reason why the subway along the 7 and N lines are filled up with graffiti. i wish there was a cop at the station so i could laugh at them on their way to the precinct. but one question always lingers, what do these vandals get out of destroying government property? why do they still do it when it won't be there later?
Let me tell you the other side of a similar story.
A few weeks ago, I was riding a southbound D train with several of my cleaners. Right in front of me a 'student' began writing on the glass in black magic marker. My cleaners looked at me, wondering what I would do. I could have called for police via radio but instead chose to confront the miscreant.
I identified myself & flashed my badge. I then took the magic marker and his school pass to get hias ID. Fortunately, the incident ended without a physical confrontation. Several days later his friends, male and female, began acting in arowdy manner on the train. It went on for several weeks, each day getting louder and more obnoxious. I finally had enough. I contacted the TA community relations department who contacted the school and the police. On March 1, the Pastor of the school marched every student who traveled by subway, into the Bedford Park subway station. He asked that I pick out the mis-behaving students which I did. He then ripped into them publically and loudly. After that he asked the 2 police officers (one in uniform and one plain clothes) to explain what could happen the next time they misbehaved on my train.
To make a long story very short, Roberto appologized and has been a model commuter ever since. He and his fellow classmates have an open invitation to tour our facility and I've been asked to speak at the school on 'Career Day'. I'm not saying that every delinquent can be turned around by early intervention but it seems to have worked in this case.
[interesting story of "reforming" youthful vandals]
I'm glad things seemed to turn out well, but I (reluctantly) have to point out one thing. It's apparent from your account that the kids in question attended a religious (probably Catholic) school. That indicates that they probably were innately more responsible and had better home lives than typical public school students - not to mention the fact that they probably had notably higher I.Q. scores. Their rowdiness and vandalism therefore might have been a result of youthful boisterous behavoir, as opposed to their being hardened criminal types as you'd be much more likely to find in a public school.
I somehow doubt that public school students would have reformed so well under similar circumstances.
And try to picture a public school principal bothering to do what the head of this school did -- not to mention the public school parents' reactions when they learned that their children had been taken illegally and without the parents' knowledge to appear in a police line up.
BTW: don't Protestants run any religious schools? (Jews do but we don't have "pastors.")
Down South, yes, but the majority of those are designed to perpetuate segregation rather than for any real religious purpose. (Not all of them - Raleigh has Episcopalian elementary (St. Timothy's) and high (Hale) schools that are truly religious in intent, and multicultural in enrollment - but they are the exception to the general rule.) Most of the so-called "Christian" schools in North Carolina, at least, offer a decidedly inferior education than the public schools do. Fortunately, they have declined dramatically in number and enrollment levels in the past fifteen years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[BTW: don't Protestants run any religious schools? (Jews do but we don't have "pastors.")]
Anon-e-mouse already has answered that, but I should point out that Catholicism was uniquely suited toward running schools because of its religious-orders system. In other words, until relatively recent times the Catholic church had an ample supply of inexpensive labor to run schools, namely the nuns and, to a lesser extent, brothers. Being celebate and having taken vows of poverty, they weren't paid much. Starting in about the late 1950's to early 1960's, their numbers began to diminish, at rates which increased as time went on. Catholic schools increasingly had to turn to outsiders ("lay" teachers) to fill their teaching ranks. And lay teachers had to be paid considerably more than nuns, although in most cases their salaries were notably lower than public school teachers. While not too many Catholic schools actually have had to close, you certainly aren't going to see many new ones opening.
I went to a Quaker school. I guess they are protestants.
like scratching up windows ??
"Their rowdiness and vandalism therefore might have been a result of youthful boisterous behavoir, as opposed to their being hardened criminal types as you'd be much more likely to find in a public school. I somehow doubt that public school students would have reformed so well under similar circumstances."
But isn't that a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy? The private school kid and the public school kid (separately) graffiti trains and are caught. The private school kid's action is perceieved as youthful indiscretion and the authorities decide to go light on a "reformable" youth. The public school kid's action are seen as symptoms of deeper criminality, and the authorities decide to impose harsher penalties in order to make an example of him; he's an "unreformable" youth anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in being tough on crime; I'm a strong believer in the death penalty, longer imprisonment, and less parole. But there's been too much demonization of teenagers in the media and popular perception in recent years. Despite the drop in youth crime of the last decade or so (contrary to the late-1980's "superpredator" predictions), isolated incidents like Columbine -- and a dozen school shootings in a year in a nation of a quarter-billion citizens are STILL isolated incidents -- have led to a (mis)perception that "the kids are out of control."
The response has been two-fold:
1) Zero-tolerance policies in the schools, that treat nail clippers the same as switchblades, Midol the same as cocaine, and clearly harmless verbal jokes as serious death threats. Very equitable, in that a rule is applied consistently in all cases, but also very unfair. Not every kid who writes a story in Lit class about a character killing people, or who draws a picture of same, actually wants to kill anyone. But instead of getting discreet counseling within the school environment (that is, while still attending classes normally), the immediate response is suspension, most often followed by the summoning of the police. Hell, I went to Catholic grade and high school, and all sorts of students made idle fantasy talk about killing unpopular teachers. I would imagine that there have been students imagining their teacher dead as long as there has been formal education! Students SHOULD be punished for violating school rules, even picayune ones like sharing legal non-prescription meds and carrying nail clippers. But the PENALTY that is imposed for the violation should be measured to the severity of the offense. Policies that impose immediate suspension in all cases regardless of severity do not adhere to this most basic rule of justice.
2) The criminalization of all sorts of juvenile offenses that have previously been universally handled in the juvenile justice system. I have no problem with cases being sent to the adult criminal courts when the juvenile court judge concludes that the tools available to him or her will not suffice and that the offender would not benefit from such tools. I agree that there are "hardened" youth offenders beyond the help of juvenile court, fit only for punishment. But the state legislatures have been robbing the judges of their power to decide cases by declaring entire classes of offenses as automatically and without exception removed from juvenile court jurisdiction and sent to criminal court, with the defendant treated as an adult. And I don't mean stuff like murder and rape.
A kid caught with a gun on school property in an inner-city school may not automatically be a "hardened" gang-banger beyond help. Ditto with a kid who falls in with the wrong crowd and assists in an armed holdup of a store. I am ***NOT*** advocating that these kid's actions should not have consequences, or that they should be exonerated because they had the proverbial bad childhood. But the existence of the juvenile justice system is society's recognition that youthful indiscretions DO occur and that SOME children who commit crimes may be salvageable with proper intervention. Who fits into that category and who is hardened and beyond help is more related to how they were brought up and who they associate with than to the offense they committed. What the legislatures have done is declare that all youths who commit a particular offense are ipso facto unsalvageable; no need for a petty thing like fact-finding or examination of individual offenders by judges or shrinks.
Sorry, but this topic is a pet peeve of mine. Harsh penalties automatically applied to children in a unthinking manner, without any discretion or deliberation, ***don't*** result in law-abiding and respectable citizens, much as some people would like to believe it. Punishment must be swift and sure, but it must also be FAIR, or the bitterness of obvious and unremedied injustice will turn otherwise-decent kids into exactly what we're trying NOT to create.
[interesting post]
I'm also a very strong law-and-order type, and I must say that I agree with most of what you said. Young people today have indeed been demonized, and school punishments have become way too inflexible. Yet I'm rather hard-pressed to find much sympathy for subway vandals. Scratching windows or doing other sorts of damage is not the kind of crime (unlike, for example, shoplifting or auto theft) that produces monetary gain. It's simply an expression of contempt for other riders, indeed for society in general, an expression that's done in the most primitive manner. I find that worse in many respects than a gain-producing crime.
The next time you see this, call 1-877-NYCT-555 and give them the info.
i couldn't believe it! with my own two eyes, i seen a few teens (probably cutting school) trying to vandalize an Astoria-bound N train this morning at Queens borrow plaza. they all got their markers readay to do some graffiti on the doors as they close.
You know how male cats (and other animals) urinate to mark their territory? The graffiti kidz are doing the same thing--marking their territory with spray paint and permanent marker rather than urine.
You know how we stop male cats from marking their territory? The same thing will work with the graffiti kidz.
Punishment should be cruel and unusual: it works better.
CH.
Too drastic. Just make them wear big scarlet Gs on their clothes and ban them for life from all MTA facilities.
The metrocard turnstiles are not easy for left-handers to use. Why was no thought given to that and are there any remedies in the forseeable future?
Because the majority of people are right-handed, and no.
-Hank
On the contrary, it's all a sinister plot. It's actually easier to do a left-handed backhand swipe than to do a righ-handed forehand swipe.
Rightees and wrongees
but the do have lefty hammers and screwdriveres
(humour)
avid
There was plenty of thought given to it. They just don't want us lefties on the trains. I've overcome this heinous plot by walking through the turnstiles backward. My leftie swipe is oh-so-smooth, and others are taking notice.
Everybody's following my lead. Check out the turnstiles at Penn Station some morning -- at least 20% of the entrants are walking through backward. Since only about 15% of the population is leftie, it's clear I'm even getting sympathy support from some righties and ambi-s. (You are aware that ambi-s are just repressed lefties, aren't you)
I've found that civil disobedience is the best way to fight the rightie power. Stand on the left on escalators. Walk on the left on stairways and platforms.
Come to the next meeting of the Leftie Railfans. Tonight at 6:30, on the lower-level platform at 7th Avenue Manhattan. I believe that's the only "leftie-friendly" platform in the system.
chech your roots, you may be from the U.K., Hong Kong, Ireland, Japan
Austrilia, New Zealand or Singapor
avid
chech your roots, you may be from the U.K., Hong Kong, Ireland, Japan Austrilia, New Zealand or Singapor
Shouldn't that be Czech your roots?
Heh..
CH -- Incorrigible punster. Do not encourage.
That's another thing that always bewildered me - ever notice how a LOT of escalators in subway stations, the left one is the up one? I know Grand Central on the 7 is (or was) like this, and I know there's a few others that slip my mind now....
I'm not sure if it's lefty or British resistance that's doing it.
BTW - I believe some commutter RR in Chicago still has left hand running.
One other evil escalator thing I read was that some kids once got the keys for Otis ones (they all use the same key..), and went to a local shopping mall and set all the escalators so that they all went to the ground floor. Thus, those shopping on the upper levels / basement could exit, but shoppers entering the store wishing to go upstairs were out of luck.
Oh yeah, you do *not* want to be one those things when someone hits the emergency stop.
Does the T/A still have those "enter to start" ones?
As for the lefty thing, when the up on breaks, it makes sense to reverse the down one, because it's easier to walk down. Then when they fix it, they just send it down rather than reversing the other one, I've seen it done a million times at school, it takes a few days to rectify.
And I've been on many an escalator (also at school) that stops for whatever reason (not because someone hits the button, they just have crappy escalators). It's not as jarring as you make it out to be.
As for the enter to start, the TA still has those, I've just never seen it in use, the escalator just stays on.
Oh, and there might be another reason for the wrong escalator direction. When both escalators are sent up (in most cases, never both down) during the rush, and they have to set it back for the next one, perhaps the wrong one empties out first and they just decide to reverse that and not bother waiting for everyone to finish climbing the other one.
Escalators at school? Boy have times changed!!!
And then they complain that the youth of America are flabby and overweight. No need to spend money of sports programs; just make them climb the stairs.
I'm not going to climb between the second floor and the ninth floor!
I don't blame you. That's insane. Certainly wouldn't do it if you lived in an apartment building.
-Hank
Yes. Point taken. I forgot how big NYC high schools are. Where I grew up they were all two or three floors.
Speaking as a "leftie". When has any thought ever been given to US? We always have to adapt to their world. But, the one in ten rules apply.
Peace,
Andee
This lefty has no problem swiping with his right hand. I can't write with my right hand, I can't cut with my right hand (nor can I cut with standard scissors in either hand), but I have no problem aiming for a slot with my right hand. Am I atypical?
>>>I can't write with my right hand, I can't cut with my
right hand (nor can I cut with standard scissors in either hand), but I have no problem aiming for a slot
with my right hand. Am I atypical? <<<
I swipe with my right hand, bowl with my left, bat left-handed, throw with my right, and eat with both.
I'm not ambidextrous, just f!@#ed up...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I write left, throw left, bat right, shoot right, am 95% ambilateral. I also don't have any trouble with the Baltimore subways ticket reading slot. Slot is on right. (Stick ticket/pass in slot, turnstyle grabs it, runs it through the reader, returns ticket/pass to user. This is entry. For exit, same procedure, except turnstyle keeps ticket, returns pass.
The scissor manufacturers solved the right/left problem by making almost all scissors with equal handles and blades ground to cut either was. Old style scissors were built for handedness. For a lefthander to use a standard scissor without hurting the hand was to turn it upside down - where it promptly refused to cut.
On streetcars the controller is operated by the left hand and the brake by the right. This was a leftover from horse days, where the driver held the reins in the left and handled the brake with the right. On one series of subway cars (BMT Standard) wasn't the controller and brake reversed? Why?
The TA did take left-handed persons into account when they designed the current turnstile. It was demonstrated that with some practice, a left handed person can swipe their card while standing with their back to the entrance and then pass backwards through the turnstile.
...while reading a Hebrew advertisement through "rear-view mirror"
glasses and reciting, in descending order, the list of prime
numbers less than 1024.
Next I guess train operators will be asking for the controller handle to be placed on the left and brake handle on the right. (That's the way the 1924 MBTA Blue Line cars are configured. Maybe the designer was a lefty?)
Next I guess train operators will be asking for the controller handle to be placed on the left and brake handle on
the right. (That's the way the 1924 MBTA Blue Line cars are configured. Maybe the designer was a lefty?)
Huh Todd? Controller on left, brake on right. That's the way it
was on most streetcars and rapid transit. Notable exception: BRT/BMT
Sorry Jeff, my error. I meant that the Boston 1924 Blue Line trains were brake left, controller right.
Were they put back to "normal" when rebuilt with SMEE controls
in the 1950s?
Nope, the brake handle is on the left. Release is at the 9:00 position; full apply at 7:00, emergency at 6:00, and handle off at 5:00.
The controller is 3-point automatic (switching, series, parallel); the handle small. Power off is 3:00 o'clock and parallel at 6:00.
Next time I'm at Seashore I'll hop in an snap a pix.
I just do a backhand swipe when I go through. You just have to make sure you get the card down low enough to register.
Now those right-handed card insertion slots on the D.C. Metro -- those things are a royal pain in the butt for left-handers.
Maybe Congress will pass a bill declaring lefties eligible under ADA, and we can get a left-handed card slot installed at each station, the way they have that one lefthanded folding desk at the end of each aisle in college lecture halls.
I could never learn to use them. I was so used to writing with my elbow hanging in the air, I had to use a "right-handed" desk.
Is it my imagination, or are the posters on SubTalk disproportionately left handed?
You get that from this thread because of the many left handers who are coming forward.
Oops! That message was intended as a response to KMA!
[The TA did take left-handed persons into account when they designed the current turnstile. It was demonstrated that with some practice, a left handed person can swipe their card while standing with their back to the entrance and then pass backwards through the turnstile.]
But why bother? Swiping a card doesn't take a great deal of manual dexterity. "Handedness" is relevant when it comes to activities requiring reasonably fine motor skills, such as writing. Card swiping is unlikely to matter.
Try that attitude with toilet paper! Don't just sit there laughing ,
go try it.
(humour)
avid
You don't think that that requires fine motor skills?
Maybe some of us lefties could learn to (gasp!) adapt.
I, for one, am left-handed with pen and spoon, and right-handed with keyboards and, yes, MetroCard swiping.
It seems easiest to just hold out the card in my right hand while walking up to the turnstile, and let the card slide through as I keep walking. Works 9 times out of 10.
In for a penny in for a pound.
How mobbed are the platforms on S.I.
Which is the most crowded Station there?
How can this pot be Sweetened?
I beseech all experts out there to stand and deliver.
Lets Go!
Whats the dwell time on LIRR at Copaigue?
Can S.I. live with what ever it is?
A BOLD and Dangerous A V I D
Replace the entire fleet of S.I. with the cream of the crop of LIRR M-1. Recoup the R/44
2. Viola , you just solved the 63rd st. tunnel car shortfall.
3. Bolt the doors and windows , here come the S.I. Trotters looking for there 44's back.
avid
The only way the SIR will convert to M1 cars would be if they re-instituted fare collection. Otherwise, the cars would be destroyed by vandalism. There's already a call for it, as vandalism and crime on the trains have doubled since the fare was eliminated. Most passengers interviewed are of the opinion that free isn't worth it if this is what they have to live with.
-Hank
04/07/2000
BAD IDEA!
The LIRR M-1's are beat to hell!
SIRwy would do better with new equipment from scratch.
Bill Newkirk
GOH them again. Put in hard seats, maybe digital signs (never mind, only 2 destinations). Get double the required amount for the line and use the extra cars for replacement parts. The M-1s wouldn't be there for long, just until the 143s get in (in 2-7 years). Then get rid of the M-1s, return the R-44s (or something else in their place). It'd be nice to have a railfan window on SIR from an M-1.
SIR has more than 2 destinations (there are rush hour short-turns, express service, etc.), but GOHing the M-1s is a pretty good idea. The bodies were built by Budd, and as I understand it have stainless steel framing, so they ought to last "forever." The problem with the cars isn't with the bodies (unless I'm sadly mistaken--and I've never heard ANYTHING bad about the condition of the carbodies), it's with the equipment, and the equipment can be upgraded/replaced. In fact, some of the M-1s were already overhauled and will not be replaced under the current M-7 procurement.
David
Would this give them enough equipment to restore service to South Beach?
But the ROW is gone, so what's the point?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Only if the M1s ar converted to run on rubber tires. The tracks are completely gone, as in a majority of the ROW. BTW, similar story on the North Shore. The ROW is there, but not intact, and in no condition for service at all.
-Hank
What if the SIR was converted to Light Rail and South Beach was made street running?
Great idea. Now, all we have to do is find someone willing to put the amusments back in at South Beach (so that there will be an attraction to promote ridership) and willing to pay for reinstalling the line.
04/09/2000
What if the SIR was converted to Light Rail and South Beach was made street running?
Pigs,
Just two problems:
1) The old South Beach ROW ran through where the Verrazano Bridge toll plaza is today.
2) The old ROW is built on in places and in residental neighborhoods. Beware the NIMBY's !
Bill Newkirk
You mean beware of NIMLR!
-Hank :)
(Not In My Living Room)
That's why the street running!
It sounds like a good idea. If the M-1s can handle the curve going into and out of St. George, they should do it.
I presume "vandalism" refers mainly to the possibility of people slashing the seats with knives. The seats are made of molded foam rubber, right? So, unlike the red vinyl seats that were once used on the subways (or even the more common fake straw seats), cutting the seat covers will not allow the padding to be readily removed, right? If some seats do get slashed, just cover the cut with some duct tape and put the cars back on the road. Don't do any extensive repairs, that would only reward the vandals. I doubt it would be much of a problem for long.
As for the question of whether two doors per car can handle the crowds (brought up in another thread that touched on this subject): if commuter trains into Penn Station and GCT can discharge all their passengers through the same two doors, why shouldn't SIR trains into St. George be able to do likewise? There would hardly be a problem at any other station, would there?
Wouldn't be too much of an issue.
-Hank
NJT uses duct tape and sometimes stitching when someone slashes seats on Comet IIs, but never on anything else.
[NJT uses duct tape and sometimes stitching when someone slashes seats on Comet IIs, but never on anything else.]
This seat-slashing business was a real problem in the days of cotton and rattan, but I wonder if it has to be a real problem today. Use cheap, easily removeable cushions made of foam with a vinyl wrapping. Buy a cushion covering machine. When a cushion is slashed or dirty, swap it out and stick it into the cushion covering machine. Voila! And while you're at it, set up some stakeouts and sentence any kids caught slashing seats to seat replacement duty--se how they like losing their evenings and weekends for a year.
04/08/2000
Yes, the LIRR M-1's are really beat to hell!! Don't let that shiny stainless steel body fool you, there's more than meets the eye. I have friends in the LIRR who say the M-1's are in their worse shape in years. In fact, the LIRR stopped overhauling the cars a few years ago. If anything, repairs are made when the cars bug out. The overhauls of years ago would insure better reliability, but no more.
I don't see why there is much call for spending taxpayer money to overhaul these cars that the LIRR doesn't want to overhaul, but to replace outright. I don't know when SIRwy will need a new fleet, but a friend of mine who is a superintendant there says the R-44's (MUE-2's) are doing fine since their last overhaul. Are any of us hearing any complaints about the SIRwy fleet? Not me.
The point here is that before you know it, the R-143's will be here. The new CBTC signal system on the (L) should be in place when the 143's arrive and the southside Manhattan Bridge tracks will reopen as well as the 63rd St. connector. This will all happen at the same time, it is all planned!
As a railfan it's nice to dream and fantasize a bit, but in all reality, recycling old redbirds with with body skirts and rehabbing old commuter cars its' own railroad wants to unload is not facing up to the real world.
The real world is that the every taxpayer dollar spent for capital projects and equipment replacement is scrutinized very closely. Money is closely budgeted for these items and that doesn't include rehabbing old M-1's for a couple of years service and Redbirds with body skirts for the same. Take a look at the GOHing of the R-32's thru 42's back in the late 80's. It's been twelve some odd years since the were shipped off to M&K etc. They're still running and have a very good MDBF rate too. The money spent on them was for an extended period of service until their replacements can be secured. It was all planned back in the 80's, everything we see today with new technology (R-142,143's, CBTC, AC traction motors etc). I don't think it is in the best interest in the MTA to waste money on rolling stock that has out lived it's life in comparison to newer equipment that will be more efficient both operationally and maintenance wise.
To shorten this long rant................I do not agree!
Bill Newkirk
But are the R-143s going to come in the same time as the 63rd St. connector will be completed? From what I've heard the connection is going to come in about the same time the bulk of the R-142s arrive, not the R-143s, which is what this thread is mainly about -- the fact that the B Division will have the ability to increase capacity from Queens to midtown Manhattan without having the rolling stock to do so for a few years down the line.
That reminds me: I've been wondering how you can use an AC motor when the power supply is 600VDC.
There are semiconductor inverters on board that convert the DC to 3-phase AC. Moreover motor characteristics can be changed by adjusting the frequency, phase and amplitutde of the AC drive.
And that eliminates brushes, commutators, field windings, resistances, assorted mechanical contactors,(all associalted with the DC series wound motor) and makes regen braking a breeze.
Baltimore's been running AC motored LRV's since 1992, and that's been the least trouble prone component. The cars themselves have a fleet availabilty record approaching 95 per cent.
AC traction ain't rocket science any more.
And that eliminates brushes, commutators, field windings, resistances, assorted mechanical contactors,(all associalted with the DC series wound motor) and makes regen braking a breeze.
Semiconductor control for DC motors has been around for 35 years. The transit industry and NYCT just chose to ignore it. The elevator industry is the largest consumer of electric motors of the size required for mass transit. They started using chopper speed control in the 1970's. They started switching to AC motors in the mid 1980's.
However, even the DC semiconductor control still required series wound motors (there's those commutators and fields and the resistance grids.
Modern AC traction dispenses with all that.
As to the NYCT, it is well known that it is one of of the most conservative properties for mechanicals. The R142/143 are the first large car purchase that does not have outside framed trucks. The inside framed truck has been a staple in the rail transit industry for at least 40 years. The only rail transit property that eschewed the modern truck designs was the New York City Transit Authority. That doesn't make them bad, just very conservative.
The last 4 R-32 trucks were odd balls as far as the standardization of the fleet. That's the Pioneer III trucks. On top of that the R-46 had Rockwell trucks, which were later replaced with the NYCTA-GSI standard trucks
You can't blame the TA for being conservative, look at their past experience with new trucks. (You say your basement walls are cracking, and you live near the Sea Beach line.....)
Conservative, yes in 1970, when inside frame truck technology was no longer a trial object, but in everyday use. Every rail rapid transit operator was using them, with very few problems. Not the TA. They became the dinosaurs of rapid transit. Who else is still using nose suspended axle hung traction motors? Nobody else. Right angle and hypoid gearing was intorduced in 1936! And inside frame trucks were not "new" when the TA had problems with the Rockwell trucks.
It's conservative transit inertia on a massive scale.
04/10/2000
Let's say that the TA converted the entire subway fleet over night to AC traction equipment (Don't laugh, just a question).
Barring the use of air conditioners, would the NYC subway system be cooler, the same, or hotter than traditional DC propulsion and motors?
Bill Newkirk
Probably cooler, as AC traction dispenses with resistance grids and the associated heat. And the use of regeration in braking reduces heat from brake shoes.
This issue came up a month or two ago in a thread about the R142 proulsion system. The heat generated by the propulsion systems would be less, but the major source of heat is the HVAC, not the propulsion.
Correct. We went into an extensive calculation of this.
The new tech trains will regen, dumping the kinetic energy
back into the third rail rather than wasting it as heat. However,
there are many conditions which can prevent this, and the cars
carry conventional grid resistance so they can fallback on dissipative
dynamic braking.
I read in the newspaper that it is braking that causes the bulk of the heat.
That just goes to show that you can't always believe everything you read.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So then why should I believe you? After all, I'm only reading this.
Wrong. The major source of heat is the customers. While the A/C mechanism may (actually does) originate some heat due to the friction of its moving parts and the warming associated with current moving through wires, most of the heat that it moves from inside the car originated either in the environment outside the car or as body heat.
The A/C's used in subway cars are refrigerators not heat pumps. Heat is generated in the compression cycle and vented to the outside of the car. Heat is absorbed in the expansion cycle from the inside of the car.
The first and second laws of theremodynamics combine to ensure that more energy must be expended in the compression cycle than is absorbed in the expansion cycle. Generally a lot more for air conditioners. The frictional and ohmic heat sources are relatively minor.
And furthermore let us remember the distinction between heat
(thermal energy) and temperature, as well as thermal resistance.
The heat energy transfered into air at the condenser coils
directly raises the air temperature to perhaps 150F. The
condenser/air interface has very low thermal resistance because
the air is forced to flow over an extruded surface area in
the condenser fins. Although the total heat energy rate (power)
of dynamic braking may actually be higher, the grid resistors
do not lose heat to the air as readily.
Moreover, heating of the tunnels is not the real issue. Heating
of the stations is what affects passenger discomfort. When trains
dwell in the stations the heat from the HVAC is being dumped
under the platform. When the train leaves, all that hot air rises and
gets trapped by the station roof. At the same time, very little
heat is being transfered at the grid resistors as there is no
airflor over them when the train is in the station (the MCM control
packages, which used forced-air cooling, are all retired)
I've always thought the reason for NYC's subway's being as hot as they are is the presence of a large network of steam pipes just above the ceilings of most of the stations and tunnels. In most other subways I've ridden, particularly Chicago's, the stations and tunnels are actually a bit cooler during the summer months than the surface.
Or am I wrong about this?
-- David
Chicago, IL
The ground is a great heat resevoir. The stations dissipate their heat through thermal conduction with their surroundings - the ground.
The stations are cooler than the surface at the beginning of summer. However from August onwards, the ground temperature rises to prevent much heat dissipation, or reverse its direction. From then on, the stations are are hotter than the surface, which is air temperature.
I think it has to do with the sheer volume of trains -- and people -- throwing heat into the subway. At Prospect Park on the F, the station is indeed cool during the summer. It is at major Manhattan stations, with many times more trains pulling through, that the heat builds up. My typical ride home on the last day of a heat wave features sweltering heat at Chambers Street, sweltering heat at Jay Street, and cool temperatures at my home station.
[I've always thought the reason for NYC's subway's being as hot as they are is the presence of a large network of steam pipes just above the ceilings of most of the stations and tunnels. In most other subways I've ridden, particularly Chicago's, the stations and tunnels are actually a bit cooler during the summer months than the surface.
Or am I wrong about this?]
Two factors combine to make NYC's stations hot in the summer--air condtioning and bad ventilation. The original, 4 car IRT was cooler than outside for most of the year. It got hotter when the line was extended, apparently because ventilation no longer worked properly.
But the real killer was the addition of air conditioning; after the AC was installed, the busy stations went from hot to intolerable.
The flip side of this is that the capital plans are too tight, too bureancratic, and too inflexible to account for every contingency. Everybody likes shiny new equipment and master plans, but when demand goes up and the system runs short on cars, people get stuck with the result. To me the question should not be *should* the MTA do something to alleviate short term conditions, but *what* should the MTA do to alleviate short term conditions. Welding gap fillers on the old redbirds could be done for a penny and a song. Sure, it wouldn't be pretty, but if it would relieve overcrowding for the next couple of years I'm all for it, and lawyers and plans and 50-year tunnel construction projects be damned.
The BMT would have done it. The TA won't.
[The BMT would have done it. The TA won't.]
I think any private company would.
04/09/2000
Let me address the suggestion of installing body skirts on the Redbirds to fill in those gaps. It was done on some Low-v's for the Culver Shuttle back in the late 50's. But that was a dinky shuttle line with 4 stations.
Now retrofit Redbirds with those skirts and what line will you run them on? Not the Franklin Shuttle, you'll have your extra equipment you asked for, but the bodies are smaller yet making it a bit cramped inside withn those standees.
What's done is done, and scrapping those perfectly good yet R-30's was a blunder. Hopefully the TA will learn from their mistake by mothballing the best Redbirds......JUST IN CASE !! Maybe the TA could have acquired those old Red Line (Boston) or retired TTC (Toronto) subway cars for an emergency fleet. Now that would have been interesting!
Bill Newkirk
[et me address the suggestion of installing body skirts on the Redbirds to fill in those gaps. It was done on some Low-v's for the Culver Shuttle back in the late 50's. But that was a dinky shuttle line with 4 stations.
Now retrofit Redbirds with those skirts and what line will you run them on? Not the Franklin Shuttle, you'll have your extra equipment you asked for, but the bodies are smaller yet making it a bit cramped inside withn those standees.
What's done is done, and scrapping those perfectly good yet R-30's was a blunder. Hopefully the TA will learn from their mistake by mothballing the best Redbirds......JUST IN CASE !! Maybe the TA could have acquired those old Red Line (Boston) or retired TTC (Toronto) subway cars for an emergency fleet. Now that would have been interesting!
]
There was talk here that the MTA was thinking of mothballing some redbirds as a backup. The astounding thing to me is that they don't routinely mothball the last generation of cars for contingency use--take them off somewhere into the country and leave them somewhere.
Using cars from Boston and Toronto would never have worked. The old Boston MBTA cars were 2" too wide, and the Toronto TTC cars ran on a wider guage. Also, neither cars had tripcocks.
04/10/2000
{Using cars from Boston and Toronto would never have worked. The old Boston MBTA cars were 2" too wide, and the Toronto TTC cars ran on a wider guage. Also, neither cars had tripcocks}
I believe those Boston (Red Line) cars were of BMT/IND dimensions. I responded to others ideas of Redbirds (IRT) with body skirts for use on BMT/IND lines to alleviate a car shortage.
As far as tripcocks are concerned, the ex-SIRT cars on the BMT never had them until they were added in 1955 for BMT service.
Bill Newkirk
Tripcocks are a relatively easy install. SIRT cars don't have them, but the former JFK express R46 that served in 1990-91 had them for a few days; they were later removed.
-Hank
The SIR doesn't really need them. They have large headways except for times during rush hour. The roadway is pretty straight with a long sight distance. If they install signals let it be cab signals.
Well sports fans out there in TVland here are the results.
Main Idea, Replace S.I. R. T. fleet with , now pay careful attention, THE CREAM OF THE CROP, of M-1s.
This was to free up as many as possible cars to make up for the short fall expected when the 63rd St Tunnel goes into service.
The M-1s meet FRA requirements and the SIRT-R44 meet 63rd St measurements.
Would Redbirds make for a better short term replacement? What woul it cost to bring the Redbirds to FRA Standards?
I would also advocate the use of M-1s for the Shuttle service on the Rockaway Park branch during NON rush hour and NON beach season, again to free up R44s for the car shortfall. The riding public deserve some comfort. If this can be achieved by moving around the furniture, lets do it.
As far as vandalism goes , its been along time since I've been to S.I. How is service Free ? Are there no Metro card readers? Could someone be kind enough to explain the fare practice on S.I.
Thanks
avid
04/10/2000
Avid reader,
To begin with, the LIRR won't be giving up any M-1's, cream of the crop or otherwise until the new M-7's arrive, which should be around the time the R-143's do. The cream of the crop M-1's you described I have been told will be overhauled along with the M-3's. Perhaps to mirror the M-7's and conversion to AC traction motors etc.
The not to be rebuilt M-1's may not be scrapped even after the M-7's arrive because the cream of the crops will be withdrawn from service for rebuilding. There is a car shortage now and commuters who pay big bucks for monthly tickets complain of standing due to short trains.
As far as seeing any M-1's on SIRwy or the Rockaway Shuttle, don't hold your breath! That will never happen, not because I don't want to see them on TA property but the TA won't want them on their property.
Also, The R-143's will arrive for the (L) and (M) lines a couple of years from now. Remember, the R-143's will supplement the roster, they won't replace anything. The replacements of the R-38,40S,40M,42 and unrebuilt R-32's (the ones that aren't due for the upcoming overhaul) will be in the future when the R-143's are all in and running.
Bill Newkirk
Tnx Bill, I thought perhaps a little juggeling , some help with smoke and mirrors would see the Extended Q line or what ever the 63rd tunnel service is to be, would ease the Ta short fall.
The topic sure generated a nice responce though!
avid
[Would Redbirds make for a better short term replacement? What woul it cost to bring the Redbirds to FRA Standards?
]
That's a good idea!
Who will be comming to Mark W's trip this Sunday?
It will about the SIR North Shore Line. We will walk the viaduct where the abandoned stations are and the open cut.
Hopefully we will be able to walk through the Arlington Yard and down the West shore branch.
Now, I don't think we could do this but it would be great if we could walk over the AK drawbridge to NJ.
Its all in the "Upcomming Events" section.
> Now, I don't think we could do this but it would be great if we
> could walk over the AK drawbridge to NJ.
Not unless you want to get wet... the bridge is kept in the raised position.
-Dave
You mean they wouldn't lower it for a bunch of pedestrians?
There is more water traffic then railroad (ie NONE) traffic so the bridge is in the raised positon 24/7. There is no operator present so no one to lower it for ya. Kinda like the bridges over the harlem river, call 24hrs in advance for them to open except this is in reverse.
Weren't one of those bridges opened on the night of July 13, 1977 at just the "right" time?
Did something unusual happen then?
Well, if I'm right about the opening, there would have been no electricity to lower it.
Kinda like the bridges over the harlem river, call 24hrs in advance for them to open...
Same with bridge S. of Broad Channel A S
As long as the weather cooperates I will be there.
-- David
Can't walk the West Shore, it cuts through private property (GATX)
-Hank
due to switch work at Jay Street these changes will be in effect from 1201am till 4pm on Sunday 4/9/2000.
A:Local in Brooklyn. Northbound runs via F to West 4th and then local to 59th. Southbound runs normal to Chambers and then run wrong to Jay Street via the Northbound (207 bound) track.
B: Local Stilwell to 168
B Shuttle: 57/7th*the BMT N/R station) to Queensbridge
C: Suspended
D: Southbound runs local from 47-50 to West 4th from 1201am till 530 AM
E: Local in Queens-both ways
F: Southbound- runs via G line. Northbound Normal. ALSO: from 530am to 4pm additional F trains runs from 179 to Delancey.
Single track shuyttle from 1201am till 530 am from Broadway/Lafayette to Delancey.
G: Normal
R: shuttle only from 95/Bay Ridge to 36/Brooklyn.
Shuttle Bus 1: 7th ave F line to 9th street and 4th Ave F/R.
Shuttle Bus 2: Southbound only: Delancey to east Broadway.(Norhtbound bus runs light).
How do I get to my station?
Manhattan F Stops-- use E to 7th ave for D.
Brooklyn F: E to West 4th for A. York -- Northbound A at Jay Street.
Second Ave, Delancey- D to Broadway Lafayyete and Shuttle train.
East Broadway- Change at Delancey for Shuttle bus.
C customers-- use A or B.
R Customers-- use E or N.
**This post is based on official Station Department Bulletin.
OY VEY! Let's hope they're not doing this on April 15th!
Wayne
Ahh, what a wonderful birthday present for Mr. R16.
This morning I was on R38 A #4041 (coductors cab) We did wrong rail from Chambers to Jay. At Bway-Nassau, the motorman lost indication. It was funny because he said I dont have indication and then sarted to proceed. Passengers were confused and talking amongst themselves. One lady on the train kept saying, "Just get me the f--k to Bklyn." At Kingston, this had a girl about 7 years old selling flowers. THIS WAS 2:30am!!!!!!!!! Abuse?
3TM
"Motorman didn't have indication and then started to proceed." A number of things may of happened. He may have said that because the doors in his car were closed for a reasonable amount of time and was inquiring. Maybe the c/r didn't have it either, then some wise acre decided to let go of the doors. Maybe the c/r forgot to turn the key momentarily, or maybe the c/r gave him 2 short buzzes, m/m used the side door bypass and indication came in after the train started to move. It was Friday nite/ Sat. morning lots of nuts around. Don't forget that a train is a very complex machine and sometimes things happen.
The c/r had his indication, the m/m did not. We spent @ least 5 minutes @ Bway-Nassau. I know there is a lot of nuts around but a seven year selling flowers 2am, much less awake. They got off at Kingston when the cops came on. A man had too much to drink at 42St. The platform became hs bed for the night.............
3TM
Our first chat is Saturday at 8 PM in the chatroom at metrocard.cjb.net. It would be nice to have regularly scheduled chats in that room. We would want to meet at a time that is convienent to most. Please post the best 3 times (Eastern Time, who ever reads this in the end doesn't know your time zone) for you and maybe Pgitty can use the results to schedule more chats. I will bring the topic up Saturday night.
Thanks.
BTW, Wednesday and Saturday at 8 are good for me!
For those of you who are not in the EASTERN time zone of the US, here are the conversions.
Central: -1 Hour
Mountain: -2
Pacific: -3
I think that covers almost all the SubTalkers, those of you overseas or in Alaska , Arizonia, Indiana, and Hawaii, you will need to do the conversion for yourselves.
Why is the Special Weekend Service still included when there is only 1 line under that category (the J)? It is a waste of space.
Also, the current map STILL has the Lenox Avenue Line marked as part time. No one has bothered to change it since the Rehab ended.
Maybe they decided that the bus service is more cost efficient than the train shuttle.
ARe you sure that the train shuttle is still running?
The train shuttle's discontinuance had nothing to do with the rehab. It was replaced in 1995 (I have to check my 1994 map to make sure).
What are you talking about? I asked why they made a category for just one line on the service guide and why no one has changed the Lenox Avenue Line from part time service. Also, why is the Rockway Shuttle ommitted from the service guide? It is still a train in the NYC Subway, last time I checked.
The Lenox Line is still part time. That is why they didn't change it.
The Rockaway Shuttle is still there. Look under the A train lisitng.
I would love to know which edition of The Map you are looking at. I checked back to September 1999 and the indications for the Lenox Line and Rockaway Shuttle were the same in that edition.
As far as the single category for just one line - why not? It is not hurting anyone.
The Lenox line is full-time. The 2 runs at all times.
February 2000. The 2 runs all the time. AND, to be a full time line on the front of the older maps, the line had to run from 6AM-12AM daily (there were and still are exceptions, the 5 is marked part time between 149/GC and Bowling Green even though it meets the full time requirements on that stretch of the line).
1. Yes, the #2 is shown as Part-Time at 110th, 116th, 125th, 135th. Obviously an oversight.
2. The #3 train is still replaced by a bus overnight. It's a picked run out of Mother Hale Depot. Officially, the route is MSH (Manhattan Shuttle), but the destination signs still read "L3" from the Lenox Invert construction project.
3. The Rockaway shuttle, with blue S-circle, is mentioned in the A listing under Primary Service. It make some sort of sense, since that particular shuttle exists solely to feed the A.
4. The Special Weekend service does seem a waste withonly the J listed. Actually, the B-to-Queensbridge should appear there as well.
The bold letters are feor lines that always stop from 6A-12A.
Yeah, I was wondering why they have 2 and 3 as part time service in that area?????
3TM
I am very concerned that while we should be heading for a better future, we may be retreating to a worse one. But that aside, a little more than ten years ago the city's economy, and subway ridership, reached a peak at a lower level than today. How would you compare late 1980s conditions with today?
-- There are fewer panhandlers.
-- There is less crime.
-- In 1988-89, I frequently could not board an F train after 7:25 a.m., and frequently had to wait for a C train to squeeze in at Jay Street. Today, I can almost always board an F train at 8:15, and can almost always board an A train.
-- The 2/3 train from Brooklyn are also much less crowded than in 1988-89.
-- Out of service trains are less common than in 1988-89.
-- The overall consumer price index is up 38 percent since 1989. The subway fare is up from $1.00 to $1.50, except if you buy ten or more rides, in which case it is up 36 percent. The fare covers a higher share of costs than in 1989.
-- I can by an unlimited ride card once per month with a credit card.
Sounds better. However, the next capital plan, and the lack of significant system expansions in the past and future could make it worse in 10 years, however.
It seems odd that rush hour trains are less crowded today than they were in 1989. It's not as if there are new lines open today :-) Could it be attributable to changing employment patterns?
Absolutely. Flex time and telecommuting has had a significant impact on ridership patterns.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What train line are you riding? Rush-hour ridership and congestion is as strong, or even stronger than ever.
[Rush-hour ridership and congestion is as strong, or even stronger than ever. ]
That's only true of the Brighton Line and only between Kings Highway and DeKalb. All other lines have seen a decrease in congestion (but an increase in ridership)
The Brighton is crowded, and so are the Lex and the Queens Blvd line. But that is due to the deterioration of the Manhattan Bridge, and the lack of a Second Avenue Subway and 63rd St tunnel connection. Were it not for those infrastructure errors of the past, we'd have a pretty good system right now.
The fare is 25% less (32 with the bonus) if one takes a bus.
From previous threads, I gather that the "Pelham 1-2-3" naming convention is still in use. Two questions:
1. Is the name based on the scheduled departure time or the actual departure time?
2. What happens if two trains leave a terminal at the same time, such as might happen at Coney Island?
Thanks,
Bill
I believe that it is based on Line, Origin, and Scheduled Time of Departure. Such as...
1430 Nancy Coney
or something along the line of that.
Wouldn't Pelham 123 really have been Pelham 1323?
Yes. Since the book and movie were produced, the TA went to military time.
In general, the call letters of a train follow this format:
Departure Time, Departing Terminal, Arriving Terminal - so that the 123 Pelham - Brooklyn Bridge would have left Pelham Bay Park at 1:23 AM.
B Division trains use the following - Departure Time, Line Identifier in Military Alphabet, Departing Terminal, Arriving Terminal - resulting in a 1006 November Stillwell - Ditmars
What are all the words for the letters anyway. All I know are B - Bronco, D - Delta, R - Romeo.
I wouldn't call the time used as military time...it's actually 24 hour time...the military plans events based on a 24 hour time frame...the military uses a phonectic alphabet that police departments and NYCTA adapted and changed for their use.
A-alpha G-golf M-mike S-sierra Y-yankee
B-bravo H-hotel N-november T-tango Z-zulu
C-charlie I-india O-oscar U-uniform
D-delta J-juliet P-papa V-victor
E-echo K-kilo Q-quebec (kaybeck) W-whiskey
F-foxtrot L-lima R-romeo X-x-ray
What about shuttles, would they just say "Times Square shuttle on track one" ?
People working in Manhattan, both Manhattan residents and those commuting in from elsewhere, are about the most affluent people anywhere. Collectively, they earn about $200 billion per year at work. If they were willing to devote 1/2 of one percent of their earnings to improving the quality of their commute, such a tax would raise $1 billion per year. That's just $2 per week for those earning $20,000 per year; $10 per week for those earning $100,000 per year. As for those earning $1,000,000 per year, they can afford to make a contribution to the future.
The construction of LIRR to Grand Central access, the Second Avenue Subway, and LIRR and MetroNorth to Lower Manhattan -- if we were to stop the ripoffs and get rid of the procedural bullshit -- could probably be built for ten years at that tax rate, if the politicians didn't steal the money for something else.
The way I would do it is to create connections to have the Second Avenue Subway take the place of the BMT Broadway Line, with four tracks south from the 60th Street tunnel. Then hook up the BMT Broadway Line to MetroNorth (curving into the Central Park Subway at 63rd St from Park Avenue and down the express tracks) and the LIRR (curving off from the Penn Station tunnels down 5th Avenue into the BMT local tracks at 23rd Street, and on to Whitehall). More of the TA's capacity would be on the east side, where it is needed. LIRR riders could get on at Montauk and get off at the World Trade Center.
The future, and the quality of life, either matter of they don't/
[The way I would do it is to create connections to have the Second Avenue Subway take the place of the BMT Broadway Line]
So trains from Astoria, Forest Hills will go to 2nd Avenue? This would make it very difficult for people working in Midtown to get there from Astoria and even more overcrowd E and F.
Arti
<Then hook up the BMT Broadway Line to MetroNorth (curving into the Central Park Subway at 63rd St from Park Avenue and down the express tracks)>
You're still thinking about this? It doesn't look like you realize the value of the Broadway line - if this is done, then 6th Ave express riders would be probably taking the 7 line to get to Times Square, which is quite crowded already. And what would you do with the severed 60th Street line to Astoria? Some of these inconsistencies would disappear if you let Astoria-34th Street operation continue, but I would prefer keeping the entire Broadway line.
They could sell Liberty Island and Staten Island back to New Jersey. We'd pay them the billions it would take to build the 2nd Ave. subway.
You can take Staten Island, we'll accept $5 for it.
If you want to control Liberty Island, you better be prepared for WAR.
Let's get real.
The money from Staten Island and Liberty Island would go to pay the expenses of the consultants New York hired for the "Feasibility Study of the Sale of Staten and Liberty Islands to New Jersey."
So New York would end up with NO Staten Island, NO Liberty Island and NO 2nd Avenue Subway.
However, the concept of selling New York off piecemeal might have merit. Imagine if Manhattan were sold off in parts to New Jersey, Connecticut and Arkansas (since Arkansans seem suddenly so interested in us). We could conduct our border wars in one compact place and build the 2nd Avenue Subway with the proceeds of the spectator tickets.
Well, actually, only one person in Arkansas seems really interested in New York City (heck, Wal-Mart won't even come in, and those Arkansas people go everywhere else). But I don't think she has the money to buy any part of the city right now, unless those Chinese `businessmen' friends of her husband get very, very generous again.
Hillary won't be buying the city. She'll be selling it out to get votes elsewhere, just like all Democrat politicians.
And of course the Republicans would never do that.
Who to hate more? Well, the Republicans don't pretend they are not out to screw us. It's obvious. The Democrats pretend they are on our side. Their hypocracy is sickening.
[Who to hate more? Well, the Republicans don't pretend they are not out to screw us. It's obvious. The Democrats pretend they are on our side. Their hypocracy is sickening.]
NYC voters have no one but themselves to blame. By voting in a near-monolithic bloc for Democrats (Guiliani being the one notable exception), they've more or less guaranteed that neither party will care about their concerns. The Republicans have written off the city as hopeless, while the Democrats can take it for granted.* Note that the same end result would occur if the city always went for Republicans. If city voters were more of a swing group, they'd get more attention from both parties and everyone would benefit.
* = this is the same reason why TV networks consistently ignore older viewers ("older" meaning 50 and over in this context). It really isn't because older people are more resistant to advertising pitches, which is the conventional belief. It's instead because older people watch plenty of TV no matter what's showing. The networks don't need to court their viewership because they've already got it.
Also advertisers think older people are pretty set in what they're going to buy as far as brand loyalty goes, and targeting shows and their commercials towards them won't attract any new customers.
As far as the elections go, the best example of voters in play in New York is the deal Staten Island got from Giuliani and Pataki on the SI Ferry and the SIRT with the "one city one fare" Metrocard introduction. Would they have gotten it if Cuomo and Dinkins were still in power? Maybe, but probably not, because the borough votes Republican.
[ Would they have gotten it if Cuomo and Dinkins were still in power? Maybe, but probably not, because the borough votes Republican.]
Cuomo was opposed to fare discounts on the basis that they hurt the poor, who can't afford to buy Metrocards.
[As far as the elections go, the best example of voters in play in New York is the deal Staten Island got from Giuliani and Pataki on the SI Ferry and the SIRT with the "one city one fare" Metrocard introduction. Would they have gotten it if Cuomo and Dinkins were still in power? Maybe, but probably not, because the borough votes Republican.]
Staten Island votes mostly but not entirely Republican. If indeed it were diehard Republican, there probably would have been no ferry and SIRT deal because Pataki and Giuliani could have taken its voters for granted. Nothing like being a "swing" area to have the politicians fawning all over you.
It also didn't hurt that they periodically threaten to secede.
[NYC voters have no one but themselves to blame. By voting in a near-monolithic bloc for Democrats (Guiliani being the one notable exception), they've more or less guaranteed that neither party will care about their concerns. The Republicans have written off the city as hopeless, while the Democrats can take it for granted.* Note that the same end result would occur if the city always went for Republicans. If city voters were more of a swing group, they'd get more attention from both parties and everyone would benefit.]
I've often wondered about that. For all that NYC is a democratic stronghold, we've elected two Republican mayors in my lifetime. In both cases, they seemed powerless to bring anything to the City and ended up in conflict with the Republican governors. Doesn't do the Republicans much good with the public.
It seems to me that the Republican party let a wonderful opportunity slip through its claws here. A Republican mayor and governor could have worked together to make the state competitive again. Instead, it seems that Pataki satisifed himself with stealing more from the City while leaving the bulk of the bloat unchallenged and untouched. It's been left to Giuliani to cut where he could.
[As for those earning $1,000,000 per year, they can afford to make a contribution to the future. . . .
The construction of LIRR to Grand Central access, the Second Avenue Subway, and LIRR and MetroNorth to Lower Manhattan -- if we were to stop the ripoffs and get rid of the procedural bullshit -- could probably be built for ten years at that tax rate, if the politicians didn't steal the money for something else.
The way I would do it is to create connections to have the Second Avenue Subway take the place of the BMT Broadway Line, with four tracks south from the 60th Street tunnel. Then hook up the BMT Broadway Line to MetroNorth (curving into the Central Park Subway at 63rd St from Park Avenue and down the express tracks) and the LIRR (curving off from the Penn Station tunnels down 5th Avenue into the BMT local tracks at 23rd Street, and on to Whitehall). More of the TA's capacity would be on the east side, where it is needed. LIRR riders could get on at Montauk and get off at the World Trade Center.
The future, and the quality of life, either matter of they don't]
At a billion dollars a year for seven years (assuming the state contributes that $1 billion we'll end up paying for anyway), building a full length 2nd Avenue line is well within the City's fiscal capability. But are tax hikes are in the cards now? People have expressed a willingness in surveys to pay higher fares for a 2nd Avenue line; it seems to me that we should raise the money by charging a Manhattan automobile commutation fee--bridge tolls plus a peak period garage tax in the business areas (waived for those who have paid the bridge tolls) would take care of that--and raising the fare to $2.25 during peak periods. I agree though that the important thing at this point is just to get the line built, wherever the money comes from.
Why take LIRR trains down the Bway line when they can come in via Atlantic Avenue and the underutilized JMZ? Also, there's bandwidth for MN trains on the West Side line/A. That diversion would leave the MN tunnels and the Bway line free to handle subway riders from the Bronx and Queens. AFAI can tell, we can bring the commuter RR's to Lower Manhattan, accomdodate the airport trains, and provide ample service to all subway riders except those along 2nd Avenue for perhaps $1 billion.
(PS I got your email but haven't been able to respond since my copy of Outlook Express is screwed up--it looks like I may have to reinstall Windows 2000 to get it going again, something I'm not exactly anticipating . . .)
...... I have past experence with driving different kinds of buses in my younger days... ( example ) .......and...............
driving different type of buses for the going downhill EASTERN AIRLINES .. and driving them around while they are GOING MAD !!
picking up & droping off eastern employees from terminal to terminal etc... shuttle services and in and out of the Atlanta Airport !! ( etc )... This is similar to most transit bus operators have to do etc....
My other job was driving motorcoaches & school buses for atlanta schools and charter services !!...
To me I would vote that the BUS DRIVER has a more difficult task then a motorman or train operator
It is not an easy task however i would give a slight Edge to most bus drivers ! What do you think SUBTALK ?...!!
Definitely bus drivers. They have to deal with people, with fare collection, with traffic, etc. Motorman are sheltered inside their cab.
By the way, I drove a yellow medallion cab during my college years to support the tuition and although you might think I'm nuts I actually thought the job was fun!!!
well thats a tough job too !! the reason why i asked the question is because the bus operator makes more
decisions than even a pilot has to make . A bus driver makes more decisions than any motorman ........
i agree with you ! As far as your cab job i did a car club jypsy type operation myself !! ( illegal cab 1975 )...
First of all, let me just say that I am somewhat new to this board, so if the "Money Train" movie has been discussed before, which I'm sure it as, and these subjects already discussed, which I'm sure they have, my apologies for any redundancies.
I'm aware that the revenue collection car shown in the movie was a mockup to make it look dramatic and that the actual money trains are yellow and black.
BUT - - -
Who is actually in control of the money train? Is it anything like the setup in the movie?
Is the undercover police work anything like in the movie?
I also know that the train operation and trip-stop system is nothing like in the movie and that a rear-ending is hard to acheive with the signal system.
And why would the Command Center have a model board that looks like the back of a 1980's subway map???
The Taking of Pelham One-Two-Three - now that's a real movie. Not only a real subway movie, but a real "people's" movie. Not like today's pop-culture-fad-teen-crazed-sex-seeking-gossip-instigating-who's-sleeping-with-who-who's-naked-in-what-scene-type movies, most of which make me sick.
And that's why you'll hardly see me at Loews, Sony, or General Cinemas unless it's a military-motiffed movie, which I like (such as the upcoming Rules of Engagement).
And yes, I'm 16 years old myself and look at what I have to share my school with . . .
Anyway, forgive me for ranting, but TTOP123 is my all-time favorite movie, not just because of the subway factor, but the fact that it is a realistic, down-to-earth, movie about the common man and that the producers didn't find it nessecary to lower themselves and load it with all sorts of sexual perversions and innuendoes to make it appealing and to cajole money out of the public.
Why did I see the money train car from the movie (51050) in Coney Island Yd near the pair of R-30s under the platform of Avenue X on the F line on Tuesday, but on Friday it was gone. I thought they had gotten rid of it years ago. It couldn't be operational, one of the doors was missing.
[Why did I see the money train car from the movie (51050) in Coney Island
Yd near the pair of R-30s under the platform of Avenue X on the F line
on Tuesday, but on Friday it was gone. I thought they had gotten rid of
it years ago. It couldn't be operational, one of the doors was missing.]
I have the answer to your question: "Money Train" car 51050 was moved near track 40 for display at today's Car Equipment Rodeo over by the Coney Island Overhaul Shops.
I'm sure it'll be back on the track over by the paint shop area by next week (if not tomorrow).
I was able to snap off a few shots of the car (with a display sign siting the fact that CI yards built four identical cars the movie).
Of course RPC had their fleet of antique subway cars on display as well.
Doug aka BMTman
Yes Doug,
RPC tries it's best getting the vintage cars cleaned up and ready for display. It was great seeing you and heypaul again.
-Mark
Yes the Ta uses a work train to collect from subway stations. And the TA even has a fleet of armored cars that still come out of the old Jay Street building.
TA has a title I believe of "revenue collection agent" or somthing like that. Not a cop but a guard if you will though I've seen cops on the money train. They are all in uniform except for the operator
With OPTO (One Person Train Operation) there is no longer a conductor on the train, the motorman operates the train.
And yes the command center board looks like that it was never connected to the system but they are building a new one. The people who work in "Command" are a certian type of dispatcher title that slips the mind.
Hope that helps and does not have too many errors.
They use several 2 car yellow R-22 work trains with bars over the windows, many are stored at Concorse Yd (at least 0R/1R 720 and 721), one goes to Jamaica Yd (0R/1R 719) every morning and goes by 71/continental at around 7, +- 20 minutes. They drop the money off at a special platform somewhere in Brooklyn (Jay St?) built solely for that purpose. Check the Revenue and Rider car roster on this site for more info.
The Jay Street station on the IND has two island platforms, if you look on the West wall you'll see a roll up door. That's where the money train stops.
Mr t__:^)
A fond look at the last days of the LIRR diesels...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Diesel/diesel.html
Kevin,
Excellent Page!!!!!
However 2 corrections:I definitely remember on some (not too many) old diesel cars where the toilets had a hole and emptied on the track. You could actually see the trackbed when looking down.Unless I misunderstood what you meant, isn't there four places where there are direct connections between the subway and the LIRR? Didn't you forget Atlantic & Flatbush?
Not to mention Hunterpoint and LIC. And since when did they move Jamaica Station to Parsons/Archer. Last I looked it was at Sutfin Blvd, wasn't it.
Hunterspoint Avenue and LIC are close calls but no cigar. You're right abt Sutphin...fixed.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Not to mention Hunterpoint and LIC. And since when did they move Jamaica Station to Parsons/Archer. Last I looked it was at Sutfin Blvd, wasn't it?
/*I definitely remember on some (not too many) old diesel cars where the toilets had a hole and emptied on the track. You could actually see the trackbed when looking down.*/
This was a "feature" the old electrics (MP-54) had.
I remember once hearing a funny story involving a bathroom,a woman occupying it, an electric, the east river tunnels, and air pressure changes. I'm running late now, so I'll leave it as an excercise for the reader to figure out what happened.
Amfleet bathroom used to dump on the tracks. They had signs that said "do not flush while in stations, important safety inspections being performed under train."
Of course, evil people would flush anyway. Repeattedly. Especially if they were in the first car, and at New Haven.
Nobody's bathrooms do this anymore (much to the relief of evironmentalists and Amtrak engine change crews everywhere), thanks to the EPA.
Phew! Those filthy diesel coaches!
One of my last rides aboard them found me stuck in car #2801. The lavatory, whose door was ajar, had a large, malodorous puddle emanating from it and spreading across the car floor. The smell of it was absolutely VILE! After finding myself unable to tolerate it (I DID have a seat on this crowded car, albeit bottomless), I repaired to the open platform where I spent the remainder of my journey.
Wayne
But Wayne, after all is said and done, you ARE gonna miss those open platorms between cars!!! I do already!!!
Metro North and NJT still have them, but its not the same. That rubber thing between the cars makes it impossible to feel any kind of wind if the doors are closed. Also, the metal things above the coupler don't screech whenever the train bounces (that doesn't happen too much either!).
Perhaps I'd miss them if I still smoked, but I haven't had a smoke since March 2, so...
Wayne
>>>>2.Unless I misunderstood what you meant, isn't there four places where there are direct
connections between the subway and the LIRR? Didn't you forget Atlantic & Flatbush? <<<
BUSTED!
I'll fix the page...
Very nice page, Kevin. The diesel engines are very handsome and I will miss them (especially my old friend #621), but NOT the despicable Coaches they used to pull. May they rust in pieces.
wayne
Take a look at a Hagstrom in the Jamaica area.
On the main line, just outside Jamaica to the west, you will find a station called Westbridge.
Westbridge hasn't been there since 1939!
www.forgotten-ny.com
That company seems to do a lot of that. Are they deliberately leaving rails on their maps long after they are gone in the real world to help out nostalgic trains buffs or do they just not bother to keep their maps updated?
For example: the Hudson County NJ map shows an old rail line on Essex Street in Jersey City, right where the new tracks were installed. Personal inspection of the site before construction began showed no such rail line visible.
Maybe Hagstrom is doing what some textbook publishers do - deliberately introducing mistakes or failing to update certain information, in order to facilitate prosecution of plagiarists.
(In plain English, it's easier to prove that they copied your work word-for-word if they also copied the errors!)
It isn't just Hagstrom. On our (BSM) line, we pass the filled in tunnel portal for Glen Edwards Avenue. The street used to pass under the B&O belt line and connected to a street in lower Hampden. The street vanished in the early 1950's, yet was shown on Rand McNally maps until the early 1980's. We've got a car stop there called (of course) Glen Edwards Avenue.
[Maybe Hagstrom is doing what some textbook publishers do - deliberately introducing mistakes or failing to update certain information, in order to facilitate prosecution of plagiarists.]
Possible, but unlikely. "Copyright traps" on maps seem to be less common nowadays than they were in the past. Most such deliberate errors (at least the ones that have been identified, of course) have involved adding nonexistent tiny, dead-end streets. In other words, the mistakes have to be minor enough as to avoid confusing anyone, and also minor enough that a plagarist wouldn't be likely to catch onto them. I would imagine that a decades-gone train station would be a poor choice for a copyright trap because it could be confusing to legitimate users and probably wouldn't slip past a plagarist.
Another thing I have noticed about the Hagstrom maps: they still show the White Plains Rd. line as part of the "East Side IRT" (two thin parallel lines) and the Dyre Ave. line as part of the "West Side IRT" (heavy solid black line). It hasn't been that way since 1965.
They make a point about being up-to-date as far as roads go, but don't seem terribly interested in updating rail information.
Maybe somebody should tell Hagstrom that the IRT and BMT Companies haven't existed in 50+ years!!
(Nah. Hagstrom would probably respond by suing to have the companies recreated, just to keep the maps accurate.)
And recreating the BMT and the IRT as private companies would be a bad idea????
One or the other, not both, and turn the whole system over to it.
Better yet, if 21st Century does a good job running the HBLR line, turn the NYC subways over to them for, say, 5 years, with 5 year renewals based on performance criteria.
That error's been corrected.
However, Westbridge is still there. It is marked as a FREIGHT station (with a white square as opposed to a black one). It's on Map 12, grid coordinate K12. They haven't gotten around to removing the abandoned stations on the Montauk branch either.
Speaking of Hagstrom maps - does anyone know where Ivy Close is in Forest Hills Gardens? It used to be on the Hagstrom maps, now I don't see it any more. They didn't build over that street, did they?
Wayne
If you look in Brooklyn, you will also see the Parkville station on the Bay Ridge line (as well as a portion of the connection with the Culver Line). Parkville hasn't seen passenger service since 1924!
They also show a Bay Ridge station at First Ave. and 65th St.
Holy Time-warp, Bob!
To be fair, the word "Parkville" was wiped from the latest 5-Boro in 1998, and Parkville was shown as a freight transfer station for years. I'm not sure how recently Parkville survived as freight transfer between LIRR and SBR...
I believe Bay Ridge station survives as a freight stop, though there's no platforms or anything.
For those who weren't there on our tour of the Bklyn waterfront last summer, an oddity of the Bay Ridge is that it has platforms in the big Army Terminal building. Elvis Presley debarked here en route to his army hitch in Germany in 1958.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, I believe Parkville Junction was last used as an SBK transfer station about 20 years ago. Once McDonald Avenue was repaved Parville in regards to railroad traffic was a moot issue.
Doug aka BMTman
Don't feel bad. The DeLorme "Street Atlas USA" (all versions) still show the "Pennsylvania Railroad". Only 32 years out of date.....
Which is why I never trust those electronic map packages.
-Hank
I'm with you, Hank. Doesn't seem to matter which brand you buy, they allhave the same errors!
It's my understanding that all the brands get their database information from the same source, so that would explain it.
Ben Franklyn's Philadelplia map shows Pennsylvania and Reading Railroad Routes.
So does Monopoly game boards!!!
Yeah, it does. ALso the B&O and Shortline. I mentioned to a freind of mine that they should maake the game slightly more realistic by updating the prices and costs equal to inflation. $120 school tax, HA!
-Hank
Just for everyones FYI: if you go to Mickey D's & get The Short Line Monopoly sticker hang on to it with your life! Thats the Rare piece of the RR set....
I've heard of the other three RRs in the world outside the monopoly game, but was there actually a RR known as the "Shortline"? If so, where did it run?
[I've heard of the other three RRs in the world outside the monopoly game, but was there actually a RR known as the "Shortline"? If so, where did it run?]
I believe it actually was a bus line.
Parker Bros cheated?
AHEM......ShortLine IS a bus line..runs from NYC up to the Hudson Valley, Catskills,etc [my dad drove for them for many years...]. The Short Line space in MONOPOLY I believe refers to any short line R.R. When the game was 'invented' [or at least adapted to Atlantic City..] The Pennsy, B&O, and Reading were all area railroads, and needing a fourth, he just called it Short Line for that reason
What about the Atlantic City & Shoreline RR....an interurban that connected AC and Ocean City. It originated at the foot of Virginia Ave and the Boardwalk, ran thru the city and over the Somers Pt. trestle to OC. It was abandoned in early 1948.
Carl M.
Im missing Mediterranean, Virginia, Ventnor, and Boardwalk to win something........
3TM
Is it still $5 for Baltic and Mediterranean or did they resurrect the collectible glass?
Still $5. Everybody's missing Ventnor. Anyway, the Prowler is an ughly car; I'd rather take the money. The Boardwalk stamp is probably non-existant.
Wayne
How can all of you guys eat there? Don't you have any respect for your arteries and heart?
I'm not playing this year's Monopoly! Except for now, when I'm done reading SubTalk, I'll go there to try that new sandwich they have.
Whenever I ride a 2 or 3 train that's just passed Fulton northbound, the conductor could theoretically make this announcement:
This is Park Place, the next stop will be Chambers Street followed by Fourteenth Street.
When I really wish he or she would say:
This is Park Place, the next stop will be Luxury Tax, followed by Boardwalk.
Now, if there could be a station named Go with a $200 payoff to anyone using it.-)
AND passing through.
Go is actually like Free Parking (the REAL Free Parking), you get nothing for standing there, you would get the $200 anyway.
If the game was based on NY, Free Parking would be $50.00 parking.
I'm surprised there isn't a New York City version of Monopoly (at least I haven't heard of one), because there is a Denver version. It was offered a few years back, and I grabbed a set. You'd figure the subway system would take the place of one of the railroads, and the LIRR would be substituted for one of the others.
While it's true that you're not supposed to get anything for landing on Free Parking, many of us who have played the game have had our own house rules which did allow some sort of monetary award.
[I'm surprised there isn't a New York City version of Monopoly (at least I haven't heard of one), because there is a Denver version. It was offered a few years back, and I grabbed a set. You'd figure the subway system would take the place of one of the railroads, and the LIRR would be substituted for one of the others.]
There is one. I don't know how the subway figures in, however.
Here are the spaces of transportation in New York Monopoly.
(From Go, Clockwise.)
League of Mutual Taxi Owners - A drawing of a Taxi
MTA New York City Transit - A drawing of the MTA logo and a bus
MTA Metro-North Railroad - A drawing of the MTA logo and the train that's in the regular Monopoly
United Airlines - A picture of a United Airlines plane
This is for the Authorized Edition (the one the MB made) I don't know what the other one looks like.
DO NOT PASS
Metrocard.cjb.net
DO NOT COLLECT $200
I did see a version which had the traditional railroad squares labelled for the "D Train", "N Train", and two others. They had a picture of the front of an R-44/46 type with the appropriate route markers on the corresponding squares.
Microsoft Encarta Maps still shows the Erie Main Line still intact, which means the next time I go to our library, I'll have to watch out for a freight coming through the main stacks room! Where the HELL do they get these databases from???
I worked with a guy who had done a lot of GIS and mapping work. He explained that back in the 80s they had college interns enter mapping information into a computers for the first time. It's never really been updated since then. Pretty much any electronic map has its roots in these databases. Not only was the quality of the original work suspect, but it is now approaching the 20 year mark. You're now relying on the publisher to 'correct' all those changes. Of course, many of them couldn't be bothered.
[I worked with a guy who had done a lot of GIS and mapping work. He explained that back in the 80s they had college interns enter mapping information into a computers for the first time. It's never really been updated since then. Pretty much any electronic map has its roots in these databases. Not only was the quality of the original work suspect, but it is now approaching the 20 year mark. You're now relying on the publisher to 'correct' all those changes. Of course, many of them couldn't be bothered.]
Back in the old Soviet Union during the Cold War days, maps were considered at least partially classified. The few U.S. tourists in Moscow found it very difficult to get about, as the only city street maps available were inaccurate, hand-drawn versions. It seems almost like we're returning to those days right here in the good old USA!
I thought the Erie Mainline went from Hoboken through Suffern to Port Jervis. NJT and Metro North run trains on this route every day. If it wasn't the Erie Mainline before NJT and Metro North took over, what was it? And where was the mainline?
The Erie Main Line used to run directly through the towns of Harriman, Monroe, Goshen,and Middletown. What the current MN/NJT service now runs on used to be a freight-only line called the Graham Line, with most of the stations literally out in the middle of nowhere, or strategically equidistant from several smaller bedroom towns....for example: Salisbury Mills/Cornwall is a 10 minute drive or less from Washingtonville, New Windsor, Cornwall, etc... The old Main was abandoned in 1982 by Conrail, and is now totally unusable...Especially in Goshen and Middletown, where there has been construction over where the old ROW used to be...For example, Middletown took the old Erie station, refurbished it, and added on to it for a new public library (and did a real fine job too- they matched the brick and design very nicely,looks very seamless...)
Thanks for the info. I rode the train from Hoboken to Suffern a few weeks ago. I believe that most of the NJT Main Line to Suffern is the same allignment as the Erie Main Line along that stretch, isn't it? Do you know where the current Port Jervis tracks depart the old ROW.
Actually, the Bergen County line was rerouted from its original ROW at some point north of Rutherford. I'm not sure where or when. There are two tracks in decent condition which go west, and rejoin the B.C. line sometime later.
The Main line for a while ran on a short one track section from just south of Kingsland, and rejoins the existing tracks near the swamp. Look at the Hagstrom Bergen County map and you'll see it.
The old Erie Main survives until a point past the present day Harriman platform. There is a junction there which still goes to the big chemical factory there, this was where the Erie Main turned northwest.
>>>>Don't feel bad. The DeLorme "Street Atlas USA" (all versions) still show the "Pennsylvania Railroad". Only 32
years out of date..... <<<<
I get the feeling that DeLorme consulted atlases from 50 years ago or more; it still shows an Old Bowery bay Road in Astoria. Old Belcher Hydes show that that road was there once, but it's been built over since the 1920s! Similar errors are found elsewhere....
www.forgotten-ny.com
My Hagstrom atlas of Union, Hudson and Essex counties still shows stations on the CNJ in Jersey City, extra stations on the NEC like South Elizabeth and stations on the CNJ from CP-Adiline to Elizabethport. However they did remember to remove the CNJ Newark Bay lift bridge.
My Bergen Co. one shows South Patterson (Main Line). All that's left of that station are the small brown signs.
Need Help!
A couple of years back I picked up a flyer at a train show advertising a computer game "Trolley Time Challenge" by Challenge Products of Charlotte, NC. I was wondering if the game is still available, and if so, has anyone in SubTalk land actually tried it?
If you have tried it, what do you think of it? It seems there are computer games for diesels and steam, but none, other than this one, that would approach as close as possible the actual operation of traction. (ie, non SMEE brakes, controller, etc)
HELP!!!!!!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Actually, there was a game that just came out in Japan for the Japanese Playstation that is a train driving simulator focusing on Subway/LRV driving. The game is hard to find, as it is only being released in Japan for Japanese Playstations, but it looks to be an excellent game. The game is fourth in a series of train driving sims, the other three focusing more on commuter/express operation. I have one of the games, and I am waiting for this one to arrive through an importer. The one that I already have is excellent, featuring a wide variety of commuter trains, as well as a couple of the Japanese Shinkansen, or bullet trains. The game that has just been released focuses on subway and LRV operation in Nagoya, Japan, and features a number of different subway lines, as well as a street running LRV. You can check out
this site for more info on the games, and feel free to contact me if you want to know more.
Trolley Time Challenge is very much around. I've played with it at a couple of shows where they have had a booth and enjoyed it, but I'm not into computer games so I can't offer any real observations. Their web page is here: Challenge Products.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yup I did beta testing on it and his Frieght Challenge game as well. Good game but it's 16bit but I still play it on the laptop when traveling.
Can you help me identify two Brooklyn streets, etc? (1) Joe G. has several great old bus photos taken at "Washington Plaza." At what streets is this located? And what "el" line is pictured in the background? (2) I have a photo I took Christmas day '91, of an IRT "redbird" sitting on a concrete overpass on the way into a yard somewhere in the east part (I think!!) of Brooklyn. I took the photo from a 4-lane street divided by a median, which runs underneath this concrete overpass. The sloped roofs of the yard's shop can be seen in the background. Could this be the East New York yards? And does anyone have any idea what street I was on? (I'll scan the photo if this will help). Thanks!
Although Kevin Walsh (a frequent poster here) from forgotten-ny.com is probably the one to ask I'm guessing that Washington Plaza was/is the bus terminal at the foot of the Williamsburg Bridge and that the concrete overpass is bridging Linden Boulevard ??
>>>>Although Kevin Walsh (a frequent poster here) from forgotten-ny.com is probably the one to ask I'm
guessing that Washington Plaza was/is the bus terminal at the foot of the Williamsburg Bridge and that
the concrete overpass is bridging Linden Boulevard ?? <<<<
Play my music!
This sounds like a job for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Washington Plaza is indeed the trolley, and now, bus terminal at the foot of the Willlliamsburg on the Brooklyn side. In fact, there's a statue of the man who was first in war, first in peace, and first to get a Metrocard right there.
The concrete overpass SOUNDS like the one that goes over Linden en route to the yards, but Dave In Milwaukee said it was a four lane street; Linden has way more than that. I don't hang out in that part of town much, so perhaps the overpass goes over another street in the area...
Thanks, Forgotten New York Man. I knew I could count on you. So, if Washington Plaza is located at the foot of the Williamsburg Bridge, the El pictured overhead would have to be the J-M-Z. Am I correct?? Also, I took a closer look at my photo. I guess there are six lanes on that street by the yards (Linden Blvd?). But there's also a street that runs along (i.e, parallel to) the concrete overpass. Any idea what it is?? And what line sends IRT trains come into that yard? The 2 & 3?
Well, Linden Boulevard (NY-27) has a main road with seven lanes (center buffer/left turning lane), the median is flush. There are one lane service roads (New York speak for frontage roads) on each side separated from the main road by narrow raised malls and parallel parking lanes on the service roads adjacent to the sidewalk side.
Dear Mr. Royal Island: My photo is from '91. Maybe they removed the median and made a left-turn lane since then? Or, could there be any other cross-streets running under the concrete overpasses right near the yard? And do you know what street runs parallel to the viaduct? Much thanks to you and Mr. Forgotten for helping out a NY fan in the midwest (I can't scoot over to Bkln right away to check it out myself!)
No, I remember it from the eighties, it was like that all the time.
The only street that runs parallel to it is Ashford St. Livonia Yard is home of the 3 line, but you will see 4 and 5's and an occasionally 2 stored in there..........
BM34x
When Linden Blvd goes under the overpass, it does indeed have a center median with left turn bays, as well as a service road on each side seperated from the main road by another raised island. the two streets that run parallel to the overpass are Elton St and Linwood St: Elton to the west and Linwood to the east.
The city has done a good job by getting the system back to what is supposed to look. But they need to do better. So what they need to do is:
1. Build that Second Avenue Subway Line. (My version)
2. Rebuild the track placement on the Manhattan Bridge, and the DOT needs to fully fix the Manhattan Bridge.
3. When kids have committed crimes and they have been sent to Community Service they should be sent to stations and clean up the graffiti in those stations.
4. Kids that are seen doing graffiti/scratching the glass should be sent to Community service and fined, and their parents have to pay for the clean up to remove that piece of glass and/ or graffiti on the body of the train.
5. Use a new material on the windows so that scratching the glass is a thing of that past.
6. Start to fix the neglected station in the Bronx like 183 Street Stations on the D and 4. A lot of stations in the Bronx are being neglected. It seems that important Manhattan station comes before these stations all the time. I say an old station w/ a new look my make a neighborhood proud and help to maintain it.
7. Repaint the tunnels to remove graffiti. Or put graffiti proof cement in the tunnels.
8. Start soon.
9. I say make the 5 and Q full time expresses.
Thank you
Christopher Rivera
Most of this sounds reasonable to me. In fact, NYCT is soliciting bids right now for design work on station rehabs on 3 Woodlawn Line stations: 167th Street, Fordham Road, and Woodlawn (any engineers out there? Bids are due 4/17!). NYCT does station rehabilitations in a specific order, based on a combination of factors, including condition and level of use.
As to Second Avenue, who knows? Politicians are at least TALKING about the project as if it will happen, which is more than they've done in many, many years. It SHOULD get done, no doubt about it.
The Manhattan Bridge is being done, very slowly. The switch from the A/B tracks to the H tracks should happen late next year, and it is hoped to have full service on all four tracks by 2004.
The new subway cars will have windows with a "sacrificial" layer of plastic that can be removed when scratched and replaced at a lower cost than replacing the window glass.
As to making the #5 and the Q full-time expresses, riding on the Dyre Aenue and Brighton segments during the hours these services don't run (or run as shuttles) doesn't warrant full-time operation. Besides, with all the General Orders throughout the system, they'd probably be cancelled more often than they'd operate!
NYCT once had a program under which vandals, turnstile jumpers, etc. could be sentenced to graffiti removal and other such things. It was called WARP (Work Alternative Restitution Program). I'm not sure it's still around. What's needed is for the courts to take such crimes seriously and mete out appropriate sentences.
NYCT washes tunnels on a regular basis, but I don't know what's used, beyond high-pressure water. There was a plan a number of years ago to remove graffiti on a regular basis from open-cut areas of the system (such as the Brighton Line between Prospect Park and Newkirk Avenue), but it fell victim to the cutbacks of the early 1990s before it could ever be started.
David
Sounds good Dave. But is it really going to happen. How do you know this; do you work for the TA? The NY Subway should be a model for the rest of the world and should not be neglected as it has been. I wonder who really is at fault for this unsavory situation?
Is what really going to happen? The Jerome Av station rehabs? It's on the MTA website, under Capital Programs.
David
Well David, since you are in the know, tell me about the West End and the Sea Beach lines. When is the refurbishment coming there? Or is that way back on the backburner? Some of those stations are in dire need of repair.
Sorry, but no West End or Sea Beach stations are in the 2000-2004 MTA Capital Program Proposal (October 1999).
David
If the #5 and "Q" can't be made full-time expresses, at least make the "Q" an express on weekends, say, between 7AM and 9PM.
#5 service should be continued to Brooklyn weekdays during midday hours.
Wayne
I think that the Q should run on the weekends. The 5 current pattern is good enough now. There are enough bottlenecks at Franklin junction during rush hour. Middays are not worth. Besides the 4 does a good job of supplying service. Plus with GO on the 3 line, like Dave said, it would never get started. I would probably send the 5 to Atlantic if that at all.......
The 161-YS Bronx bound side on the 4 line is getting work. I heard it shoud be done by Tuesdays home opener.......
BM34x
For this coming summer, look for 4 service to terminate at Atlantic Ave during the middays, because of ongoing work from Utica to New Lots.
It is already doing that now.............
3TM
Don't confuse "the city" with NYC Transit.
NYC Transit is a STATE agency (part of the MTA) which operates subway and bus service within the five boroughs.
"The City" is Rudy. He has stated for the record that he'd like to control the entire MTA (including Transit, Long Island Bus, Bridges & Tunnels, and the regional railroads). Of course, he'll never try because CONTROL necessarily entails RESPONSIBILITY, financial and otherwise. If that happens, it's the '70s all over again.
>>>>1. Build that Second Avenue Subway Line. (My version)
2. Rebuild the track placement on the Manhattan Bridge, and the DOT needs to fully fix the Manhattan
Bridge. <<<'
As for the $$$$?
>>>>3. When kids have committed crimes and they have been sent to Community Service they should be sent
to stations and clean up the graffiti in those stations.
4. Kids that are seen doing graffiti/scratching the glass should be sent to Community service and fined,
and their parents have to pay for the clean up to remove that piece of glass and/ or graffiti on the
body of the train. <<<<
Sharpton, Hillary, Jose Serrano, Siegel the ACLU guy, etc would object.
Actually I'd like everything on your list. I'd like full time round the clock express service too. My only thought is that on lengthy express runs, miscreants would have more opportunity to attend to their calling, since there would be less escape for victims...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hillary? Are you New Yorkers nuts or just lacking in any pride whatsoever? She is playing New York like a fiddle and using it as a stepping stone for a run at the White House. And if you think that she will do anything except make excuses for the thugs and bums that will come out of the woodwork when Rudy leaves the Mayor's job, then you're even nuttier. AND...if you believe that carpetbagger is going to do anything for the subway system---then you guys in Gotham are as looony as they come.
Why are you posting this? Was Kevin endorsing Hillary?
>>>>Was Kevin endorsing Hillary? <<<<
He don't know me very well, do he?
Kevin, it wasn't directly meant for you. I have been told where you stand, but others read these strands and maybe it is food for thought for them. Of course, I'm not sure Rudy is such a big subway fan himself but at least he's a New Yorker. AND-----any New Yorker, resident, native, etc, should take pride in its subway system. It should be, as I mentioned before, a model for the rest of the world.
It already is. And, besides, as Franklin said: "A wiser man learns from other people's mistakes."
Agree with you on everything. There are factors, though, that seem to be mitigating in Her Highness's favor.
1) Creampuff questions from the press. Hillary has not had to face one challenging interview yet, except for that guy in Buffalo who asked about her marriage.
Tomasky interviewed her in New York magazine last week, and pretty much let her ramble on. This week the gossip guy in the News lobbed her some fungos about how she's enjoying life in Chappaqua. Add to that the fact that her Hollywood pals treat her to another testimonial every week, which the press duly reports unquestioningly.
The speculation was that her highness would have a difficult time from the NY press corps. Since most of them want her elected, the press has been her best friend and will probably continue to be.
2) Giuliani has a tin ear as to how the press would like him to behave. After the Dorismond incident, the press played it up that he is 'unrepentant' about his tactics. He should have known that he would be savaged for releasing Dorismond's police record. In a close race like this one, it has cost him ten points in some polls, and as long as the press allows Sharpton and Clinton to rail on unchallenged, Giuliani will continue to be tagged with the hothead label.
And he hasn't got Tom Hanks or Susan Sarandon around for photo ops when he's behind, either.
And, to get back on topic, I've heard nobody ask her about mass transit; a senator certainly has some say in how much money is allocated to public transportation. Will she support more money for transit or continue to funnel the $$$$ to the state roads?
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Giuliani has a tin ear as to how the press would like him to behave. After the Dorismond incident, the press played it up that he is 'unrepentant' about his tactics. He should have known that he would
be savaged for releasing Dorismond's police record. In a close race like this one, it has cost him ten points in some polls, and as long as the press allows Sharpton and Clinton to rail on unchallenged,
Giuliani will continue to be tagged with the hothead label.]
I'm not too worried about his drop in the polls. The election's still several months off, and voters tend to have short-term memories. By the time November rolls around, I suspect that this whole incident will have largely blown over.
Victims escape into the next car. Anyway, there aren't many problems in the stretch between Howard Beach and Broad Channel, which runs 24-7 and can be equated to a long express run. Though, to further avoid problems, the end doors of 75' cars should be unlocked in those stretches (few curves in express runs, the ones that are there aren't too tight).
That should cost some hundreds of millions of dollars Rudy and the city don;t have, but those are good ideas in the main. But don't complain about the station in the Bronx. Have you rode on my Sea Beach lately. The stations in Brooklyn are run down and coming apart at the team. Loose concrete and peeling paint engulfs the area. It's disgusting! I did notice some improvements on the Brighton Line stations but there still is a long way to go. AND WHERE IN SAM HILL IS THIS SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY I'VE BEEN HEARING ABOUT SUPPOSED TO RUN?
"AND WHERE IN SAM HILL IS THIS SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY I'VE BEEN HEARING ABOUT SUPPOSED TO RUN?"
Probably Third Avenue.
Pigs: Ha!! A good one, which if I interpret it correctly means it's never going to get done. There are two lines, the #'s 1 and 9 that run from the Bronx to lower Manhattan. Isn't that adequate enough for New Yorker needs? And doesn't the #4 and #6 also go well into lower Manhattan?
The 6 ends at City Hall, the 1, 9, 2, 3, 4 and 5 go down there.
What does the Second Avenue REALLY have to do with the Bronx, if the Pelham connection is made, then it would replace the 6. The 6 wouldn't go to the Bronx.
Line would be built to IND specs. Can't replace 6 easily.
Just shave the platform edges and move the trip levers.
And extend the platforms.
[Pigs: Ha!! A good one, which if I interpret it correctly means it's never going to get done. There are two lines, the #'s 1 and 9 that run from the Bronx to lower Manhattan. Isn't that adequate enough for New Yorker needs? And doesn't the #4 and #6 also go well into lower Manhattan?]
The Lexington Avenue line carries 1.4 million passengers per day. It's running at128% of capacity, with the load expected to increase with the completion of the LIRR GCT access project. The City's densest residential and business areas are without service in an area where traffic is at a standstill. No light rail won't work no an el won't work yada yada yada--I'm getting tired of repeating this stuff, YES WE NEED THE GODDAMNED THING! It's far and away the most desperately needed transit project in the country.
[The city has done a good job by getting the system back to what is supposed to look. But they need to do better. So what they need to do is:
1. Build that Second Avenue Subway Line. (My version)
2. Rebuild the track placement on the Manhattan Bridge, and the DOT needs to fully fix the Manhattan Bridge.
3. When kids have committed crimes and they have been sent to Community Service they should be sent to stations and clean up the graffiti in those stations.
4. Kids that are seen doing graffiti/scratching the glass should be sent to Community service and fined, and their parents have to pay for the clean up to remove that piece of glass and/ or graffiti on the body of the train.
5. Use a new material on the windows so that scratching the glass is a thing of that past.
6. Start to fix the neglected station in the Bronx like 183 Street Stations on the D and 4. A lot of stations in the Bronx are being neglected. It seems that important Manhattan station comes before these stations all the time. I say an old station w/ a new look my make a neighborhood proud and help to maintain it.
7. Repaint the tunnels to remove graffiti. Or put graffiti proof cement in the tunnels.
8. Start soon.
9. I say make the 5 and Q full time expresses.
Thank you
Christopher Rivera]
It seems that some Columbia University researchers are experimenting with a glass melting machine to remove the scratchiti.
AFAIK all stations are scheduled for eventual renovation. Unfortunately, to judge by current results the renovation program is basically the world's most expensive gum removal service--the stations end up looking almost as dismal as they did originally.
Just a funny thing I found browsing a site about Stockholm Subway. They have started nameng the subway cars.
If we had it here a post might read John was moved from A line to C
Arti :-)
I just took a quick peek at the site, it's quite interesting. Our friend and occasional poster Tim Kynerd is involved with the site, at least as the translator of the pages into English.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We only got two hits last night but the great Mets team beat the Dodgers 2-1. I hope that the #7 train was jumping and roaring on the way home. I had to catch the game on radio out here because the cheapskate Dodgers wouldn't televise it. I'm wearing my bright blue and orange Mets shirt my wife bought me two weeks ago, with my blue and orange fringed shorts. A lovely day in California if you are a Mets fan but I noticed the Dodger fans have been avoiding me here at school where I'm giving the SAT test. If we can win one more, we take the series, and if we win two more we sweep. I'll take the latter. Go Mets.
From the penthouse to the basement. Did you see those Mets blow a big four run lead today. I'm sure my phone will start ringing off the hook this evening as the Dodger fans come out of the woodwork. Well I was warned that you shouldn;t get so high that when you have a letdown you fall a far longer distance. Thinking positive, tomorrow we win the rubber game and send the fans home on the #7 happy. They still are using redbirds on the #7, aren't they?
"They still are using redbirds on the #7, aren't they?"
Unfortunately
Don't get me wrong, I like the R-36, it's just the R-33S that I LOATHE.
saw the dodger -mets game here on ktla channel 5 with one comment.....
i wish shea stadium outfield faced the the number # 7 line in the parking lot so we could see it when any game
at shea stadium is televised .............( just a comment thats all ) .....!!.....HOPE YOU SLAUGHTER THE BRAVES ...!!!
Well, you can see the 7 from certain points inside the ballpark. It's beyond the right field fence. You can't see much of the field from the station platform; just a slice of the outfield from the Manhattan-bound side.
Let's just hope they don't blow any more four-run leads in the ninth inning. Then again, what can you say about a team which plays in Flushing?
When we last saw Mr. Franco, he was blowing a Met lead in Game 6 to the Braves, who went on to win the game on a Kenny Rogers choke, er, pitch high and outside.
Today, Mr. Franco got his pitches up. Could it have been the high winds? Could it be that he hasn't got it anymore?
www.forgotten-ny.com
too bad you cant see the # 7 from the parking lot inside the stadium !
U can see the 7 out in left field. I've invaded Shea a couple of times in my life, and I remember that the 7 El in left, even on TV. ........LET'S GO YANKEES!!!!! Sorry boys, but even though I live in Queens now, my heart is still with the areas around the Bronx. I'll be @ Yankee Stadium May 7 against the Orioles. Of course 7 to Grand Central to the 4 to 161st street.
but you have to be in the top row right ?? i remember a mets game vs the dodgers in 1969 !!
1969 was a very, very good year. So was 1986.
I have a question regarding the electric transmission towers by LIRR
tracks in Nassau and Queens. Do these power lines carry power for electric LIRR service? I have read and seen old pictures of the LIRR in Sunnyside, Queens with tall transmission towers carrying all the power for LIRR electric territory from a PT&T plant in Long Island City. But I know that is not the case today. Where does LIRR get it's third rail power from in electric territory? How about 3rd rail power for Penn and the East River tunnels?
I don't know why, but somehow I feel the final downhill stretch of St. Nicholas Avenue was built with the subway and didn't exist before. Is this true?
Was Atlantic Avenue built out by the LIRR? Or was it an original road?
Don't quote me on this-- as Mr. Forgotten-NY is more an expert in this area -- but I believe Atlantic Avenue was originally called Jamacia Turnpike or something like that (this going back to pre-Civil War days). I may even be wrong here, as Jamacia Turnpike (or whatever) may be another road entirely that parrelleled the original Atlantic Ave., running somewhere close to today's Fulton Street, which itself is only a couple of blocks north of Atlantic.
Going back far enough (mid-1880's or thereabouts) I believe there was a horse-car driven railroad called The Brooklyn Central Railroad that later sold off their ROW to the LIRR Co. which at that time may have gone under the name of The Brooklyn & Jamacia RR Co. Again, I'm not an expert on LIRR history, but a gent named Bob Anderson is, and has a website devoted to just this subject at www.lirrhistory.com (I hope that's the correct link.)
Doug aka BMTman
[Going back far enough (mid-1880's or thereabouts)]
Actually I meant to type mid-1800's not 1880's as the LIRR was already in full swing as a steam line down Atlantic Avenue (at street-level).
Doug aka BMTman
P.S. the thread's title is "Atlantic Avenue and the LIRR" I would hope and not "Atlantic Avenue and the LIAR" as that would take us more into an off-topic political discussion ;-)
Don't forget, Metrocard.cjb.net in 15 minutes!
Come one people, if you are reading this then head over to http://metrocard.cjb.net/ and click on the chat. There is no reason not to.
IT DOESN'T WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!
MY FRIENDS COMPUTER AND SPACE BAR DOESN'T WORK!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm sorry that i can't be in my own chat
Today was requalification day at Seashore, where our returning operators are re-instructed for the upcoming season.
I had just finished giving the written test, when lo-and-behold, a SubTalker arrives for a visit! And he came all the way from HAWAII! I promptly arranged for him to have some "handle time" on Dallas Stone and Webster trolley #434. He'll be home in a few days, and hopefully will post about his trip.
It was also good seeing some of our Branford colleagues who volunteer at both museums.
Let the season begin!
It was also good seeing some of our Branford colleagues who volunteer at both museums.
Let me guess....one whose first name consists of two identical
consonants, the other known, at least at Branford, as "Sparky"?
Box Car???
YOU ARE INVITED TO THE FIRST AMONG MANY (HOPEFULLY) SUBTALK CHAT AT HTTP://METROCARD.CJB.NET. CLICK ON METROCARD CHAT TO ENTER. SEE YOU THERE.
ADDENDUM: PLEASE USE YOUR SUBTALK HANDLE SO WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE. THANKS, IN ADVANCE.
YOU GOTTA COME! IT'S OFF THE MEAT RACK!
R142 Boi 2K
how do i join ?? am i invited !?... etc...
Yes, even you are invited, just go to www.metrocard.cjb.net and then click on 'Metrocard Chat'
then type /nick [subtalk handle]
and joint in the fun'
(DavidP is in here!)
You can also get in through IRC.
Connect via server javairc.mircx.com, room #metrocard.
PROCEED WITH CAUTION ...!!
Congratulations to all the Subtalkers who came to the chat room! It was a real nice experience. We all agreed to meet next week same time as tonight, eight. So if you missed it this time you came next Saturday. The chat room is always open, so come by when every you visit my site. Go to Metrocard Chat And join in!
The main webpage is metrocard.cjb.net and the chat is still going on and David Pirmann in it!
Really, enjoyed it. Thanks!
I'll try to get in early next Sat.
I'll bookmark it...
Wayne
This chat is off da rocker!!!!!!!!!! You have to join!
R142 Boi 2K
Must say that it was a BLAST! Now, instead of waiting a day sometimes to get an answer, you get it right away! Saturdays at Eight- be there or be Square!!
When did it end? I went to bed (young railfans always miss out on these things) and didn't get to stay after the first 90 minutes. I will be back next week. Thanks for making the room.
For those of you who would prefer to use your favorite chat client, as opposed to the Java interface can IRC there!
Server: javairc.mircx.com
Channel: #metrocard
Question ...........at the stapels center ( built with taxpayers dollars ) two blocks away from the los angeles pico
blue line rail station ...... a RIOT broke out because some spoiled brats thaought they couldnt get
los angeles laker basketball tickets !! Even when given number place reciepts !! for season tickets and other seats etc...
anyway somebody and then somebody else ( IDIOTS ) thought that somebody else was getting ahead..............
And then fighting shoving escelated into a full scale RIOT !!!! ( is basketball that important folks ? ).......!!
what do you think ???
question..... are laker basketball tickets worth fighting over ?? that is what happened here at the stapels center !
2 blocks west of the blue line pico station !! ( the taxpayers built this center ).. a RIOT broke out fighting over tickets ?!!
Could somebody help me by telling me how you could get historical transit stuff like: old subway maps, rollsigns, and signs.
If someone knows please write to me. thanks
All sorts of ways. Memorabilia shows, eBay, etc. Maps and paper items, naturally, are easier to find as a general rule than other items, but I would suppose that even then certain specific maps are much scarcer than others.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ebay is good, and remember, the Transit Museum sells some old stuff too. The Museum will be closing soon for remodeling, so get there soon.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sometimes word of mouth works as well. I recently acquired a near-mint 1964 World's Fair subway map from a coworker who's from Long Island. Her mother had had it all these years, and when my coworker mentioned she knew someone who might be interested in it (me), her mother said she could have it. I got a chuckle from the promotional tag on the outside, which plugged the subway as being safe, fast (in italics), and reliable. The trains were certainly faster back then, that's for sure. The R-36s were heavily promoted on that map as well.
If the snow continues on Staten Island, I will likely not be attending.
Yes, I said snow. It's kind of mixing with rain, and while I don't see any visble ice, the weather reports say things will get worse, not better.
-Hank
It's pouring a 60 degrees here in Boston. The cold front is on its way, and we too will have some wet snow here later. This will probably put a damper on my planned trip to do a photo essay of Boston's North Station today.
And that's Transit and Weather Together.
Well.......I'm not going!!! I'll reschedule it for another day shortly.
Well, I think it'll have to be pushed back to May, since the HBLR opening is next weekend, and Passover the following weekend.
Speaking of HBLR, it turns out that Jodi has a cousin who is an engineer on the maintainence facility project, and he invited us out there for a tour. I'll see what we can get. :)
-Hank
We're booked for the rest of April, also, except for Easter Sunday. (If you want to go on Easter it would enable us to spend less time with Rosanne's family.) How about May 7?
That a Saturday, or a Sunday?
-Hank
Sunday. We can't go on Saturdays.
What a surprise! Woke up to 2" on the grass. I also heard that the Philly Rte. 100 (Norristown Line) was running busses because of ice on the Rte. 100 rails! Is this the latest it has ever snowed in April
in the northeast area? Next Sunday is our Trackless Trolley trip. Sure glad it wasn't today!
Chuck Greene
(Is this the latest it has ever snowed in April in the northeast area?)
According to a 70+ year record, Philly averages 0.3 inches of snow in April. It's rare, but it happens.
Too bad it is snowing on Sunday, however. I don't want to drive, and transit service is spotty. Much better on a weekday, when I could laugh at the drivers.
When I went to get the paper right outside of DC, there was a dusting but most of it had melted. I was suprised. Metro is on time to my knowledge.
May 9-10, 1977 -- 18" of snow in Boston. Of course, it had all melted (or sublimated!) away in a few days.
April snow is NOT all that unusual in the northeast; especially in NW NJ, the Hudson Valley, and interior CT. About one year in five sees measurable snow in NYC during Arpil.
I can remember getting stuck on a Metroliner near New Brunswick in a snowstorm headed back from D.C. to New York an Easter weekend in early April back around 1972 or so. It was a few days earlier than this, but a lot more than two inches was on the ground.
>>>I can remember getting stuck on a Metroliner near New Brunswick in a snowstorm headed back from D.C.
to New York an Easter weekend in early April back around 1972 or so. It was a few days earlier than
this, but a lot more than two inches was on the ground. <<<
It snowed on Easter Sunday in NYC, which was the last Sunday in March that year, 1970. The day started out mild with rain but then the front went through and the snow came down hard and we got about four-five inches. I was twelve. When the snow comes down, I'm still twelve.
www.forgotten-ny.com. I should start a website about my favorite NYC snowstorms.
(I remember the one in Feb. 1976 that dropped the temperature from 46 to 10 in two hours. )
Yes I remember the Easter snowstorm, with our car sliding down Park Hill Avenue in Yonkers ("the Terrace City, where nothing is on the level") and crashing into the fence in front of the Mount Carmel St. Anthony parking lot. We made it to church, and the '65 Impala was undamaged.
It's one thing to have snow in Janurary, February, March and April. Quite another to have more snow in April than the rest of the year combined.
While we're on the subject of out-of-season snowstorms, I remember a fairly substantial one in mid-October, 1986. There were at least three or four inches on the ground in central Connecticut. It was all melted in a few days, of course.
We were in Montreal for Easter in 1970 and left for home in NJ the following day. It seemed as though a foot of snow had fallen at our house. Our street had been plowed, so naturally our driveway was obliterated. We had to park in the street and dig out the driveway.
>>>April snow is NOT all that unusual in the northeast; especially in NW NJ, the Hudson Valley, and interior CT.
About one year in five sees measurable snow in NYC during Arpil. <<<
The last measurable NYC snow in April (before today) came in 1996. It was snowing throughout the Yanks' home opener that day. 1995-96 was the year we had measurable snow in every month from November to April and wound up with 75 inches on the season. In Boston you had nearly 110 inches!
On April 8th or 9th, 1982, a storm similar to this one gave NYC nine inches of snow, and the Yanks home opener was postponed. The difference between that day and today was that the temperature dropped to 21 degrees, allowing the snow to pile up everywhere, not just on the grass and cars...
I am a snowstorm fan and remember the big ones.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes, April 9-10, 1996 we had significant snow out here on Long Island although it varied in depth from 3 to 12 inches depending on where you were.
April 7, 1982 is the date we got clobbered. A foot of soggy, wet snow, and it was like shoveling cement. I won't soon forget that one.
Wayne
We've had our share of spring snowstorms in Denver. On April 3, 1986, over a foot of snow fell. On Good Friday, April 20, 1984, we got about 20 inches of snow. It took me two hours to go five miles instead of the usual 10-15 minutes. Other dates include May 17, 1983 and, believe it or not, June 5, 1998. No accumulation, but it did snow.
Remember February of 1969? We got belted that month, as well as the previous month, and had so many snow days we had to make up three days of school at the end of the year.
Getting back on topic, our light rail line has not been disrupted because of snow since it opened.
I remember a snowstorm during Pesach (April) a couple years ago in Philadelphia.
As for the snow here, it did not stick to the street, just to cars and rooftops. Now, it has stopped, and dissappeared from the street level around 70%. By tommorow when I get out of school, nobody will know it snowed. I am hearing a high of 60¤F.
I stand corrected. Today at sunset.
How common is May snow? On Mother's Day in 1996 it snowed in Ithaca, NY.
In northern New England and the Rockies, May snow is not uncommon. It last happened in NYC in May 1976 or 77. In both those years it had already reached 90 degrees earlier in the year!
www.forgotten-ny.com
According to the Statistical Abstract of the United States, the average amount of snow in NYC in May is a trace -- meaning you've gotten it, but it wasn't enough to have the city average one-tenth of an inch per year.
No snow ever in June. The average for July is also a trace.
We used to visit my in-laws in the Catskills on Mothers Day until it snowed on us. Now we make our first spring visit on Memorial Day.
>>>The average for July is also a trace. <<<
Must be a statistical error; it never falls below 50 degrees in July here...45 at lowest.
Here on the Front Range in Colorado, we get most of our snow in March and April. Usually January is very dry - maybe two inches of snow - then we get quite a bit in early spring.
And it almost always goes away very quickly. Snow one day, next day its 60°. With the dry air, and intense sunshine from being a mile high, the snow melts like mad.
Never any snow here in July, IIRC. Course they can get it up in the mountains (20 miles away, but a whole different world) any day of the year.
It was on May 9, 1977 that we got a trace of snow, an occurrence made all the more startling by the fact that we did break two heat records the previous month: 90 on April 12 and 88 on April 13. While on Easter vacation, I took the 'F' and B68 to Coney, then the B64 back to the 'R' on the day it hit 90. Even though all vehicles were equipped with air conditioning, none was working yet.
If you're as fascinated with weather history and statistics as I am, check out WWW.NWS.BNL.GOV, which gives you all kinds of weather records for New York City.
1977 was a real bear: that brutally cold winter (January 1977 was the second-coldest month in NYC history), yo-yo of a spring and what would be immortalized as the Summer of Sam, including three days of triple digit temperatures. I remember Mayor Beame ordering the TA to trot out all of its air-conditioned subway cars. This was back when most IRT rolling stock lacked it.
1977 was also the year of the widespread looting blackout.
>>>>If you're as fascinated with weather history and statistics as I am, check out WWW.NWS.BNL.GOV,
which gives you all kinds of weather records for New York City. <<<
Thanks. I bookmarked that site. Don't see any immediate references to NYC weather records.
April 2000 has been very strange. We had one day with a 30 degree temperature swing (40/70) and another day with 50 degrees at midnight, followed by several hours of heavy snow and 30 degrees at noon, then a swing back to 50 at sunset....I should start a Forgotten Weather site.
This isn't WeatherTalk, but...
There is no such thing as "normal" weather in the meaning of "what SHOULD be."
What is referred to as "normal" is merely the average of all of the events from the records. And the records used are just thirty years in length. (Records have been kept for about 130 years, but the entire length is not used to calculate the so-called "normals.")
Weather is not painted with an even brush. It is especially true during the spring and fall that there are wide variations. In fact if it were not for the wide variations, there would not be large storms (large storms are created, in part, by big temperature changes over small distances).
The average individual remembers events in recent years, and fewer in years gone by, unless the events had special significance to him/her (i.e. a snowstorm or hurricane that had a big impact.)
But if you look back at the records, you'll see that it would be most unusual to not have wide variations (temperature, precipitation, strong wind, etc.) nearly every month, nearly every year.
Extreme weather happens all the time. It just usually happens in different places. The USA has more severe weather per square mile (and per capita) than any other country, due to many geologic and geographic reasons - always has, and always will. It is not the case that we're having more severe weather now, it's just that we're observing it better, and measuring it better, due to improved technology (Doppler radar, satellite observations, and a more mobile population that happens to be where it happens).
Back on topic: From this vantage point, it looks like there is a chance of showers for the HBLR opening on Saturday. And that's Transit & Weather Together.
[It is not the case that we're having more severe weather now, it's just that we're observing it better, and measuring it better, due to improved technology (Doppler radar, satellite observations, and a more mobile population that happens to be where it happens).]
And people are taking much more of an interest in the weather, thanks to the Weather Channel and other news reports. Heck, the Weather Channel does an excellent job of making the weather interesting even when there's nothing particularly exciting going on!
>>>>Heck, the
Weather Channel does an excellent job of making the weather interesting even when there's nothing particularly exciting going on!<<<
Until Janetta Jones de-glamorized herself with that short hairdo!
www.forgotten-ny.com
Oh, she still looks pretty good, IMHO. Pleasant voice, too.
[large storms are created, in part, by big temperature changes over small distances]
Unless you're talking about a thunderstorm in Paris, which of course was created by a butterfly flapping its wings in Beijing :-)
Yes, Peter, that's the premise of "Chaos Theory," as described by my former professor here at MIT. Kinda like the subway at rush hour.
I remember that May 1977 snowstorm very well, driving through it to Storrs, CT for the start of final exams at UConn.
I remember two - April 6th, 1982, I believe - 9 inches, and April 28th, 1985 (or 1986) I believe - something like 5 inches (in Poughkeepsie, anyway).
I remember the two February snowstorms in 1977 that caused many a problem for the TA. Brighton Line service was out for quite a while and the Kings Highway bus (B-5 at the time) didn't run for THREE DAYS!
--Mark
Then there was Winter Storm Larry in February of 1978. Classes at UConn were cancelled for two days as a result.
Mr. R16 asked for snow on his birthday, and he got it. Thanks, G.
Tell me about it, had tix to the mets!!! :-(
Why does SEPTA charge almost 7 dollars for their maps?
Thanks, in advance.
Seems a bit high, IMO.
I have one, of course. I bought it at the transit museum.
Chuck Greene
Because the giant SEPTA wall maps are damn good. I don't know if you've seen them, but they are not some give away item. They show every transit route and most streets in the entire Philly area. I got mine a few years ago when the price was $5 each (there are 2 maps) and it was well worth the price.
The SEPTA maps are VERY good. They show all streets, points of interest, etc, in addition to all routes. For the price, they are quite a bargain. The downside is that there is usually a significant routing change that occurs just after the map comes out. This is the reason that the most recent ones (there are separate versions for the City Division and the suburbs) were delayed in being issued. Despite this delay, there have been a number of revisions made to routings.
Walk into many engineering and professional offices in the Phila area and you'll see a SEPTA map hanging somewhere. Most delivery services also have it on display as the map of reference.
I have one from 1985 (around then). Much doesn't change for they were still selling it about 10 years later (my cousin got it at Suburban Station and I used it to plan our railfan trip, she isn't a railfan, she is just a great relative willing to ride SEPTA for 8.5 hours).
That's for the really big good maps. I got a free one that folds up into the size of a credit card and is identical to the ones on the Regional Rail Line trains and the website (shows all regional rail lines, subway lines, and the 100 and 101), though the size of this map is about 8" by 11". Alas, I have misplaced this map along with my 25th anniversary PATCO ticket, and am working off memory.
Did any of you guys think about the delays that would occur if the K terminated at 57/6 if the V runs through that station? If you make another fantasy map, you should extend the K to the stub tracks at Lex/63.
I would like to see a version of the Fantasy Map
3TM
Fantasy maps. Click here.
Also, don't make Woodhaven Boulevard a skipped stop. The station should have all trains stop there.
Also, don't make Woodhaven Boulevard a skipped stop. The station should have all trains stop there.
About the K: Maybe it should go to Jamaica Center, or extend the V there. And what about the delays in terminating the T at 57/7?
There is a "third leg" of the triangle formed by the line under Prospect Park West, Prospect Avenue, and a line under Prospect Park that is not shown on the map like the one under Steinway Street, Broadway, and Northern Boulevard.
Then there are more delays caused by M trains crossing the express track at Myrtle Avenue. Maybe they can schedule it so that only a K train would be across the platform from a J or Z train at Myrtle Avenue.
I think it would be better to terminate the H at Broad Channel full-time. C trains are still running to Euclis at this time. This means delays... there's that word again...
Hypothenuse.
That would actually be hypotenuse.
I won't post single words anymore, I mis-spell it and I get a 100% erroneous statement.
Well, the idea WAS to turn the "K" there after dumping pax at 57-6th.
No use putting a tail track on the map.
We had envisioned the "P" train being made up of reproduction BMT Standards and had reopened the H track connection to Chambers Street with a grade crossover (only way to do it). Lots of other strange stuff came out of that session as well.
Wayne
I'm all in favor of bringing back the K and instituting the V...
KeVin
www.forgotten-ny.com
Well once again its time for that show of shows, the Plillies' home opener. Because of the marginal preformance of the Phillies and Eagles over the past years, local sports fans now derive their excitement from violence and mayhem. Picture 2 years ago. Phillies vs. Mets, commeritive magnet day. Mets go up 9 to 1 by the fourth and here come the magnets. The game is delayed for about 20 min to clear the debris from the field. Then the Phillies come back to win 12 to 9. Its tough to tell what team looked less professional. Picture 1 year ago. High school student day. Vendors sell the students beer. Rival high schools get into giant fist fights until the upper deck is one big rumble. Makes national headlines. This year they are giving out towels (towels don't gain much momentum when thrown), but I'm sure that Philly fans will find a way to make this a game to remember.
PS: The city is still saving its dead bateries for when John Rocker makes his triumphant return at Philadelphia later on in the month. However a few New Yorkers would be welcome to spice things up a little. Take NJT to Trenton, SEPTA to Suburban Station, and then the Broad St. line to the Vet. BYOGolf Balls.
The news media has been running a story on a flier that is making it around Shea, declaring June 30 to be 'John Rocker Battery Day'
Oddly enough, I, a Mets fan, will be in Savannah, GA.
-Hank
A couple of observations:
1. Don't confuse Phila 'fans' with normal people. Those who call themselves 'fans' are those who will be the rowdies in the stands, etc.
2. John Rocker hasn't commented on not liking Phila yet, despite the shortcomings of the 'fans'. His ramblings on NY folks are quite known.
3. Who is encouraging folks to 'welcome' Rocker when the Braves come to Phila later this month? We did enough of this 'welcoming' last year when JD Drew and his Cardinals showed up. Let's leave the ceremonies for Rocker wait until his entry into Shea.
4. Let's stick to transit on Subtalk and leave the stuff on the almost -a-real-sport we call 'major league' baseball for other venues.
1) Who says we are not normal? How can the people who bring you 610 WIP sports radio, the Wing Bowl and minor league hockey games with 200+ penalty minutes not be normal.
2) It dosen't matter if Rocker said anything against Philly or not. Attacking him will bring more entertainment than the Phillies will all year.
3) The JD Drew incident was the hi point of the 1999 season!
4) You didn't complain about the "Mets Win!!!" thread. Besides it was transit realted. I told people how to get the the Vet so they could throw things at Rocker.
As I noted, they were a couple of observations. Here are some more.
The next time WIP covers sports for more than 10 minutes straight will be the first time. They're so off-topic (and I don't mind some of their off topics, especially when Joe Conklin is involved) it's surprising that they could still be considered sports talk.
The Wing Bowl, fortunately, only happens once a year. Again, this from a sports talk station. As for the Phantoms, yes, I like them, but I'm not the biggest fan of sports violence. (I like the Flyers too but, again, I'd prefer a fight-free game, if it ever would happen. When it occasionally does, it's a game to remember.)
If anyone confuses the Phillies with major league baseball, it's not me. Then again, major league baseball is an oxymoron. The real savior of the sport is the existence of the several minor league teams in this area - Trenton, Wilmington, Reading, Atlantic City - that's where the excitement is. MLB has become a boring sport of pampered, spoiled rich men who pretend to be athletes. I don't complain about the Mets' threads because I don't read them - I only read yours because it involved Phila. Personally, if I wanted sports info, I would go to a sports site. When I want transit info, I go to this one. I wouldn't be bothered by not seeing the rants, etc on the Mets or whoever on this site at all.
Bringing the attention to Rocker will only inflame people looking for reasons to be inflamed and will no doubt hurt innocent people, especially at a crowded ballpark. Being one of those innocent people occasionally, I don't want to see sports venues turned into this.
End of observations...
And thanks for the transit info on getting to the Vet.
Speaking of Opening day:
I took the opportunity that day (I was off from work) to ride around the Queens rails for a while that morning. As I boarded an Astoria-bound N, I was anxious to check out theview throught the railfan window. Alas! There was a gent with a camera on a tripod filming the trip. This was around 10am...
Was it, pray tell, one of my fellow SubTalkers?
thats what i like about new york city ! when i do this they leave you alone !! like last fall and last march 2000 !!
Must have been a train of slant R-40s or R-32s.
Because I will miss parts of the regular chat on Saturday and because Monday is the only day of the week where I have no activities, I will be in the Chat room all night. Come on by if you have time. There will either be a discussion about commuter rail, Amtrak and other Class 1 operations, OR me asking you questions about the NYC subway because I don't live in NY and I have no clue. I will also be interested in trading transit pics (or just showing mine). So just drop in and say hi.
For the last few weekends, I noticed that every time I walked up to the uptown express track at 57/7th I would loose my balance right at the edge for a second and have to grab onto a pole. Yesterday, I did the exact same thing only with the local track and I kept my balance. Then, I figured out what the problem was. The very edge of the platform is sloped downward! It is flat until the last row of floor tiles. The particular section where the slope is the worst is closer to the front, but not right at the front. I would say where the third car is. Someone could fall in rather easily if they stand on the edge and lack good balance, like small children and people with some illnesses (I think balance is affected by a cold).
It's a good thing there are no trains on the express tracks at 57th/7th. Didn't your mother ever tell you not to stand too close to the edge of the platform? What were you doing standing at the very edge, looking for the Broadway Express?
I was waiting for the 63rd St. Shuttle, and I was not on the very edge (yellow line) though in front of the double-orange line.
One recurring theme here on Subtalk is how news media reports on transit-related events frequently display unfamiliarity with the transit field. An article in today's Newsday, about the difficult life of LIRR reverse commuters, displayed what I would term outright ignorance rather than something as mild as unfamiliarity. Not just once, but twice, the writer said that the LIRR's ability to provide more reverse-peak service was hampered by the lack of a third RAIL on the main line!!!! Doesn't anyone at the paper grasp the distinction between a rail and a track? And let's not forget that this was a feature-type article, probably not prepared under the pressure of a deadline.
Actually, Newsday is oriented toward "Lawn Guy-land"; NYC is thought of as "out there, somewhere - third cow on the right and on till morning."
Transportation without automobiles is a foreign language.
Newsday doesn't get it on several fronts, mass transit being only one of them. A few weeks back their managing editor and resident racist, Les Payne, did his usual monochromatic best to compare Bike Week in Daytona and the Black Fraternity celebrration one week hence. He pointed out that while the City of Daytona welcomes with open arms the white, drunken, two-wheeled rowdies, they shun the black, well behaved college men and women. This is the norm for Newsday wheter the writer is Paul Vitello, Les Payne or any of the other left wingers and race baiters. I wouldn't take any of their editorials seriously and would check any 'hard news' for unintentional inaccuracies.
[Newsday doesn't get it on several fronts, mass transit being only one of them. A few weeks back their managing editor and resident racist, Les Payne, did his usual monochromatic best to compare Bike Week in Daytona and the Black Fraternity celebrration one week hence. He pointed out that while the City of Daytona welcomes with open arms the white, drunken, two-wheeled rowdies, they shun the black, well behaved college men and women.]
I hardly ever agree with Les Payne (he's got a real race-baiter in today's paper), but it actually *does* sound like he's got a point here. College students might get boisterous, and I'm sure many of the Bike Week people are decent enough, but by and large if the people in Daytona Beach had their heads screwed on properly, they'd prefer the students.
Hahahha
Sounds like you and Les are reading from the wrong propaganda. Most of the rowdy Harley crowd has been replaced by middle-aged yuppies. They're armed with plastic and drink a lot of coffee & tea or coke. Some of them go there so they can visit friends who have retired there. The merchants like the bikers because they spend money and cause little trouble. Oh, by the way, many of the bikers are black too.
175 images had been added on NYCTransiTrans's Subway Page & enjoy it.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
I heard on the news yesterday that a group of #7 train riders are planning to give out batteries to people entering Shea during the first home series with the Braves....to throw at John Rocker of course. The Boston news reported this would be done on 6/30, yet this series opens on 6/29. I'm sure Rudy will love dealing with this situation!! -Nick
6/30?? I'm so there
One moron with no life and a photocopier did this. I'm amazed that any legit news organization would even bother with this.
Now That's Assault and BATTERY
I saw JD Drew get batteries thrown at him in Philly. What a drag. The game got interrupted for 15 minutes (and almost forfeit). Instead of getting publicity for giving Drew the reception he deserved - he was thoroughly booed LOUDLY - two idiots had to ruin it with the batteries, and those of us in Philadelphia looked like cavemen. Don't give Rocker the moral high ground by throwing anything - just tell him what you think, LOUDLY.
THAT WAS THE BEST GAME EVER! The real funny part was how the news covered it. They just took it in stride like it was normal. I was watching the game recap on Channel 6 and it went like "top of the second, 1 run double by so and so. Bottom of the fourth, home run by someone. 8th inning, 15 minute delay to clean up batteries and toilet paper thrown at JD Drew." It was just another entry in the game recap. They also showed a "hi-lite" clip with JD Drew comming into the dugout and you could plainly see batteries bouncing everywhere and whole rolls of toilet paper streaming down. I mean he was really getting pelted and it was a lot more than just two people doing it.
If anything made the fans look like cavemen it was when they threw the magnets and then Phills came back to win. I mean you can't boo and throw stuff only to have your team win!
Well, if the R-142s pass their initial tests and begin entering service, and they start transfering the R-62s over to the Flushing line at the end of June, maybe Mr. Rocker can be part of a "Farewell to the (un-air conditioned) R-33WFs" trip. We know he has some bad things to say about the No. 7 train in general -- putting him on an crowded, sweaty R-33 single for the trip to Shea on a 90 degree day in late June would make for even more fun;)
LOL! You provide the fan trip, I'll go find a guy with purple hair, a queer with AIDS, someone who has gotten out of jail for the fourth time, and a 20 year-old mother with 4 children to sit next to him! -Nick
Better yet, just get everyone to dress up for the fan trip. It would look like the subway equivalent of the old midnight showings of the "Rocky Horror Picture Show."
Don't remind me!!
-Hank
The Braves will probably keep him off the roster fot the series at Shea.
I dunno, Mike. I think the Braves want to let this pass as quickly as possible...and that will only happenwhen Rocker finally faces the music. Not to mention the normal rivalry between the Mets and the Braves....Rocker saved the braves 37 times last year. Also, they wouldn't leave him off in the playoffs, and if they waited until then...things will get very chaotic.-Nick
And that's worth a rim shot!
IMHO, it would be even more interesting if fans were to simply boycott the Braves series.
NO WAY!!! That is easily construed as supporting him! ALWAYS show up for the HOME TEAM!
The best we could do (and we know it won't happen) is a collective 'turn', where everyone in the stadium stands up, silently, and turns their backs to the field as he enters.
-Hank
OK, that's a good point. Personally, I wouldn't go so far as throwing objects, though. I wouldn't want to see anyone lose an eye from a flying projectile, no matter how I felt about him/her.
Remember the Pete Rose-Bud Harrelson scuffle in the 1973 LCS? Rose almost got hit with a whiskey bottle afterwards, and the game was nearly forfeited as a result. He told one of the umpires that he didn't mind booing and paper cups, but when it came to whiskey bottles, forget it.
04/10/2000
I don't support throwing anything onto a field to show distaste in a certain opposing player. Perhaps the vocal expression should do fine.
Remember back in the 70's when Pete Rose slid into Bud Harrelson and started a fight? Everytime Pete Rose came to bat, Met fans booed him big time, YEARS after the initial incident!!
Bill Newkirk
It got pretty ugly. That gane was almost forfeited. I had a line all ready for Rose, had I been there: Hey, Rose, what's the idea, going after Harrelson? Why don't you go pick on someone your own size?!?
Why isn't the TA interested in using L/R?
Greetings to a fellow Doug.
To help answer your question: for starters it would mean the NYCT would have to break with tradition where all of their equipment -- at least within divisions -- is standardized.
Light-rail involves primarily trolley-type vehicles, which the TA never had to deal with in a maintenance capacity.
Doug aka BMTman
There was a thought at one time for a 42nd Street Light Rail Line but I think the idea just fizzled away.
R142 Boi 2K
Institutional Inertia. Buses/Subway no room for light rail in the mindset. The city killed the streetcars anyway. Mayor Laguardia wanted them Gone, and gone they are.
Light rail takes away street lanes, and they are just too valubable. NYC just doesn't have conveniently located abandoned railroads lying around waiting for light rail use. So you either take away parking or moving lanes. And unlike the subway, you get stuck at lights -- no better than a bus.
Take one of the heaviest bus corridors in the Bronx -- from Orchard Beach/City Island across Pelham Parkway and Fordham Road. The've go the articulate buses running there. Now, you could probably snatch a sliver of parkland on Pelham Parkway -- which has few cross streets. But what about Fordham Road? Eliminate on-street parking? How do the stores take deliveries. Run down the middle? People getting off and on would be run over.
To make light rail work, you have to first make the automobile disappear, and that ain't happening.
They is one ray of hope for light rail in NYC (albeit a very thin sliver). This would be turning a portion of the LIRR's Bay Ridge ROW over to passenger service. The ROW is currently underused by New York & Atlantic freight trains (about 3X a week) and the route would tie together southwestern Brooklyn neighborhoods with Central Queens without having to circumnavigate through midtown Manhattan to do so.
BTW, the NYCT missed a golden opportunity at testing out a light rail system when they were in the works with rebuilding the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. That short line would certainly have been ripe for such a thing considering the stations were shortened so only two 75-foot cars could be used. It was a natural. Again, the NYCT has a one-track mind (pardon the pun) in regards to car equipment. They're still stuck with the "bigger is better" mindset (heavy-duty cars) that's been there since the TA's inception.
Doug aka BMTman
[They is one ray of hope for light rail in NYC (albeit a very thin sliver). This would be turning a portion of the LIRR's Bay Ridge ROW over to passenger service. The ROW is currently underused by New York & Atlantic freight trains (about 3X a week) and the route would tie together southwestern Brooklyn neighborhoods with Central Queens without having to circumnavigate through midtown Manhattan to do so.
]
There are lots of things you could do with that line. But why lose versatilty by making it light rail? There are many things you could do with it--offer express ervice on the L, extend subway service to unserved areas of Brooklyn and Queens, take Airtrain from etc. And if you played your cards right, you could continue to run the occasional freight.
Well, the Bay Ridge ROW has room for 4 tracks (as it was originally). There are only two tracks remaining, with some points along the route with only one track.
My idea would be to restore the line to three tracks. One would be dedicated to freight traffic. The other two would be for a light-rail line that would run from the waterfront at Brooklyn Army Terminal and make station stops at all the subway crossings or major intersections(N, F, D, Brooklyn College, the intersection of KingsHwy & Utica Ave, East New York LIRR, etc.) as it progressed eastward to Queens.
My idea isn't really original, since the Regional Plan Association has such a proposal from way back in the early 1980's. They even had drawings made for planned stations and a photo of a trolley pasted into a photo of the line at that time to show the feasibility.
Doug aka BMTman
I truely believe someone is getting paid off for using those dirty diesel buses. Yes...light rail can work in NYC, but very limited because of the current street structures. An even better way would be to use trolley buses instead. They are currently being used in San Francisco and elsewhere and are non-polluting vehicles. They would work better then light rails. Something must be done to get rid of those diesel buses. That is why there is opposition to open a bus deport in Harlem because of the effects of diesel buses. But like I said, someone must be getting paid off. Look what happened years ago when the city bought those Grumman/Flxible buses!.....what a mess they turned out to be.....also I think in some parts of Manhattan there are laws that prevent to use of overhead wiring, such as on Fifth Ave.
I have great hope for hybrid and/or fuel cell technology. In fact, I hope that if my car lasts another 10 years the next one will use one of these technologies and use electric motors to run. But we ain't there yet.
Orion sells a bus called a wireless trolly. What it is is a orion Vi that utilizes a CNG/Hybrid engine. The chairman of the MTA said in an interview last month that the reason the MTA is not buying hybrid desiel buses and not converting existing depots to CNG is that it would be a waist of money because Fuel cell technology will be hear in 10 years. The problem I have with that is that fuel cells will most likely be designed to run on CNG or Hydrogen GAS. Either way you need a CNG type filling stations to fill the buses. Did you know that
1. DESIEL FUMES IS MORE CANCEROUS THAN CIGAR SMOKE.
2. CAUSES MORE LUNG DESEASE THEN ASBESTOS.
IN FACT THE ONLY REASON IT IS NOT A BAANED FUEL IS THAT IT IS THE CHEAPES FUEL TO POWER TRUCKS AND BUSES.
[Orion sells a bus called a wireless trolly. What it is is a orion Vi that utilizes a CNG/Hybrid engine. The chairman of the MTA said in an interview last month that the reason the MTA is not buying hybrid desiel buses and not converting existing depots to CNG is that it would be a waist of money because Fuel cell technology will be hear in 10 years.]
He's right. For the same reason, it doesn't make sense to invest in trolley bus wiring.
It's impossible to say at this point what fuel will be used for fuel cells. Hydrogen most likely, because of the economy and simplicity of a system that doesn't require a reformer and the environmental advantages of a carbonless fuel. Whatever happens, I don't think you can count on a CNG facilty to remain current.
One possibility is a dual system, with a choice of electricity from a fuel cell and electricity from a pole. Taking power from overhead wires for part of the trip would reduce the hydrogen requirement, and thus the cost and danger.
For example, it might be possible to convert the SIRT to trackless trolley, with buses taking power from overhead wires on the SIRT and dedicated lanes on the Verranzano and Gowanus, then detaching and running on hydrogen on Manhattan streets.
Someday, it might even be possible for commuter rail dual modes to use fuel cells and not diesel for off the wire trackage.
[One possibility is a dual system, with a choice of electricity from a fuel cell and electricity from a pole. Taking power from overhead wires for part of the trip would reduce the hydrogen requirement, and thus the cost and danger.
For example, it might be possible to convert the SIRT to trackless trolley, with buses taking power from overhead wires on the SIRT and dedicated lanes on the Verranzano and Gowanus, then detaching and running on hydrogen on Manhattan streets.
Someday, it might even be possible for commuter rail dual modes to use fuel cells and not diesel for off the wire trackage.]
The economics of hydrogen fuel cells are so good that I have a feeling we'll see an effective end to electrification for anything other than extensions of existing lines (cf. the decision to use fuel cell generation for the Central Park police precinct because it was cheaper than running a new power line). I wouldn't be surprised to see the trolleybus overheads come down as the fleet ages out, and I suspect that fuel cells will supplant diesels entirely.
I wonder if we could do intermodal in locations like SIRT or the Manhttan ring roads by using diesel/electric hybrids, or even diesel/battery for short distances off the guideway.
[Well, the Bay Ridge ROW has room for 4 tracks (as it was originally). There are only two tracks remaining, with some points along the route with only one track.
My idea would be to restore the line to three tracks. One would be dedicated to freight traffic. The other two would be for a light-rail line that would run from the waterfront at Brooklyn Army Terminal and make station stops at all the subway crossings or major intersections(N, F, D, Brooklyn College, the intersection of KingsHwy & Utica Ave, East New York LIRR, etc.) as it progressed eastward to Queens.
My idea isn't really original, since the Regional Plan Association has such a proposal from way back in the early 1980's. They even had drawings made for planned stations and a photo of a trolley pasted into a photo of the line at that time to show the feasibility.
Doug aka BMTman]
Makes sense to me, but I'd still want to see that L express (which could coexist with local service easily enough). Why make it light rail rather than running short subways which would be compatible with the rest of the system? After all, it's *already* a heavy rail line.
Also, you could run the freight on the same line if you used FRA compatible stock (old PATH trains?) or just had some kind of switchoff arrangement. I don't see how you can justify laying track for three freight trains a week!
Good points, Josh. As a matter of fact, I once had a similar idea that the Bay Ridge could be used by both freight and passenger service utilizing just two tracks: the plan would be to provide passenger service during peak periods only (morning rush times, 6 a.m. to 11 a.m.; evening rush times, 3:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m.). This would leave New York & Atlantic Railway with mid-day hours or late-evening and early morning hours to transfer freight between the waterfront and Fresh Pond. Considering their current delivery schedules, a plan like the above would work w/o considerable obstacles, while making use of the same trackage.
Your thoughts are welcome
Doug aka BMTman
The only way a Bay Ridge ROW light rail line would make sense is in association with the reorgnaization of the bus system.
Let's face it, the only corridors with enough transit traffic to justify a subway are those heading toward Manhattan. The problem is that both the subways and the major streets run toward Manhattan, making crosstown travel a nightmare. Having light rail in its own ROW could take the place of buses on the street.
If you had light rail with frequent service, perhaps you could eliminate some cross-town bus routes in its vicinity. You could take the subway (or a bus on a major street running WITH the traffic lights) to the light rail, the head across. Among the places where people might want to go, that a LR could get them to, are the Flatlands industrial area and Brooklyn College.
Not to get people mad, but I think southern Brooklyn has one subway too many. The West End and Sea Beach duplicate each other in stretchs, leading to too few trains on each line. If there were one line and not two, more frequent service (and express service) could be provided. But they are not exact duplicates, and whichever one you eliminate, some people would be left too far from the train.
On the other hand, if the Sea Beach was made part of a LR system that also used the Bay Ridge ROW, the problem could be solved. One route would come from Queens and end at the waterfront Sunset Park waterfront, like the orignial Sea Beach. The other would come from Coney Island and end in the 59th Street subway station, where there would be a change to the 4th Avenue line.
You'd end up with three lines on 4th Avenue. The West End and the Bay Ridge R train would run express from 36th Street. A local would begin at 9th Avenue and run local north of 36th Street.
[Good points, Josh. As a matter of fact, I once had a similar idea that the Bay Ridge could be used by both freight and passenger service utilizing just two tracks: the plan would be to provide passenger service during peak periods only (morning rush times, 6 a.m. to 11 a.m.; evening rush times, 3:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m.). This would leave New York & Atlantic Railway with mid-day hours or late-evening and early morning hours to transfer freight between the waterfront and Fresh Pond. Considering their current delivery schedules, a plan like the above would work w/o considerable obstacles, while making use of the same trackage.
Your thoughts are welcome
Doug aka BMTman]
That makes excellent sense to me. How about this:
Rush hour--bidirectional service as you propose, running from Bay Ridge to the end of the line at the Amtrak tracks in Astoria, plus an L express service New Lots-East New York-Myrtle-Montrose
Off-Peak--one track would be given over to freight travel, with the other offering the following services: a one-track, one train local from Bay Ridge to Brooklyn College (for intra-Brooklyn travel); a second one track, one train shuttle from Brooklyn College to the L at New Lots Avenue, to serve an area of Brooklyn that's currently without a subway; a third one track/one lane shuttle from East New York to Astoria; truncated L express service from Myrtle to Montrose *if* an express train is running, otherwise full express service (the trains would be marked express, they just wouldn't run all the way on the express tracks if a freight was present). ?
Brooklyn College for intra-Brooklyn travel; a second one train, one track shuttle between Brooklyn College and New Lots
We've discussed the old NYC West Side line previously. I've located a site at http://www.railroad.net/nyc/westside.html that has some information on the 'upgrades' to the line when the elevated it.
-Hank
[On the northerly side of West Thirtieth Street, a double track spur extends across Tenth Avenue into the new Morgan Parcel Post Building, bounded by West Thirtieth and West Twenty-Ninth Streets, and Ninth and Tenth Avenue. It is expected that approximately 8,000 cars of mail will be received and dispatched annually through this building, which is a six-story and ten-story structure and occupies the site of the original passenger station of the old Hudson River Railroad. Mail will be handled on the second floor, where six tracks and
necessary platforms are provided to accommodate 36 cars at one time.]
Way strange idea--that viaduct is still there, although it no longer enters the post office. So how about using those six tracks and platorms to get around Penn Station's capacity limitations by accomodating Metro North and NJT trains?
Because there's no way to get the trains there. They're already 30' above the street. Also, those platforms are gone.
-Hank
[Because there's no way to get the trains there. They're already 30' above the street. Also, those platforms are gone.
-Hank]
? The viaduct is still in place, although truncated at the post office, and it still wraps around the 30th Street yard, although it no longer joins the tunnel at 35th Street. Easy enough to hook it up again at both ends. And the platforms could be rebuilt. Seems to me we're only talking a few million dollars, if the viaduct retains its structural integrity (of course there would be other expenses such as escalators and ticket machines).
Th Amtrak Empire Corridor tunnel portal complicates things.
Although it's possible to reactivate the viaduct, it would require some new construction since the fire road to the Javits Center and the Amtrak portal take up much of the available space.
When I worked for the city I tried nearly every excuse I could think of to save that viaduct but it fell on deaf ears. Problem is the Gottesman family (the folks who own Edison Parking) want it ripped down so they can put an office building on their lot under the viaduct (I think about 26th Street). CSX doesn't own the land, just the structure. They have permanent rights to an easement so long as the line is active, so they don't want to formally abandon it. If they did they'd have to tear it down (they say that would cost $26M).
They'd rather unload it on the city but the city doesn't want it either because they don't want to maintain it. So it remains in legal limbo.......
I can't imagine why the city wouldn't want to preserve the last remaining rail freight link on one of the most congested islands in the world, but I guess they'd rather have the tax revenue from an office building.
Its all the more absurd when you consider all the trucking and parcel companies (UPS, FedEx, Yellow Freight, Roadway and the post office) located near the line, and how successful AMTRAK seems to be in the parcel business. Great opportunities for intermodal there.
But that's politics....
Chelsea residents, who are increasingly affluent, also want the line torn down. I liked the idea of using it for solid waste, esp. office paper. I think that proposal is what generated opposition to the line.
[Th Amtrak Empire Corridor tunnel portal complicates things.
Although it's possible to reactivate the viaduct, it would require some new construction since the fire road to the Javits Center and the Amtrak portal take up much of the available space.
When I worked for the city I tried nearly every excuse I could think of to save that viaduct but it fell on deaf ears. Problem is the Gottesman family (the folks who own Edison Parking) want it ripped down so they can put an office building on their lot under the viaduct (I think about 26th Street). CSX doesn't own the land, just the structure. They have permanent rights to an easement so long as the line is active, so they don't want to formally abandon it. If they did they'd have to tear it down (they say that would cost $26M).
They'd rather unload it on the city but the city doesn't want it either because they don't want to maintain it. So it remains in legal limbo.......
I can't imagine why the city wouldn't want to preserve the last remaining rail freight link on one of the most congested islands in the world, but I guess they'd rather have the tax revenue from an office building.
Its all the more absurd when you consider all the trucking and parcel companies (UPS, FedEx, Yellow Freight, Roadway and the post office) located near the line, and how successful AMTRAK seems to be in the parcel business. Great opportunities for intermodal there.
But that's politics...]
What a shame. I understand that landords built over it when service was suspended during the construction of Javits. Why doesn't CSX just go ahead and resume freight service? At the very least, it seems to me that if the landlords want that space they should pay for demolition of the current structure and a replacement line along West Street.
[What a shame. I understand that landords built over it when service was suspended during the construction of Javits. Why doesn't CSX just go ahead and resume freight service? At the very least, it seems to me that if the landlords want that space they should pay for demolition of the current structure and a replacement line along West Street.]
Construction of the Javits Center required what was supposed to have been a fairly brief shutdown of the line. This required the remaining freight customers to switch to trucks for the duration. As things actually turned out, the shutdown dragged on and on for so long that the customers gave up and decided to stay with trucks for good. Conspiracy fans have pointed out that the Teamsters Union, which of course represents truck drivers, was heavily involved with the construction (and subsequent operation) of the Javits Center and therefore might have been in a position to delay the rail line's reopening.
I don't think CSX is very interested in any local customers in Manhattan. Moreover, if they were to resume freight service, they would have to make a commitment to reactivating, stabilizing, and policing the structure. Almost certainly they would incur a financial loss.
The cheapest thing for them to do is eat the property tax bill and pray that either someone will come along and buy the thing, or that they can strike a deal with some developer to remove it at an agreeable price. There may be nasties (lead paint, asbestos) involved.
The Chelsea Pier folks looked at it for a possible trolley service to their development but balked at the price tag involved.
My argument was that the thing should be preserved as far south as 14th street, where it is near the West Side Highway/9A. Anything less would be not viable.
I believe that the late Peter Obletz did actually purchase the line for $10 in the early 1980s, and had the Gennessee and Wyoming RR signed on as a freight contractor, but the deal fell through at the ICC because they felt the Obletz was not a bona fide purchaser with serious intent. He was more a rail buff who wanted to run excursion trains, store his private railroad car, and look for some frieght potential from the water tunnel spoil and Gansevoort meat market.
Another historical tidbit that complicates things: the easement is only good for rail freight transportation, so the structure cannot be legally converted to any other use (walkway, driveway for the javits center, boccee court) without universal consent of the property owners, which is impossible.
I also think that the turn onto 10th Ave from 30th Street is just about as tight as an 85-foot passenger car can stand, so any passenger train service-storage could also be a problem.
My guess is that CSX is praying that the west side yard site gets developed, by whom or how is irrelevant. If the structure over the yard is removed it will sever the line and render it useless. I think they are posturing and stalling hoping that someone else will tear it down in its entirety and pay them for damages on top of it all. They probably regard Gotttesman as little more than a pest.
Conrail was desperate to dump the line on anyone, including the city, for free. But the last I heard is that CSX wanted $7M. Again, I think it's just posturing.
My personal opinion is that the line has little potential for passenger service but should be retained as a linear team/TOFC/RoadRailer track. I think that with all the UPS, USPS, FedEx, and other parcel/courier presence in the area, some enterprising entrepreneur (NY and Atlantic or NY Cross Harbor, for example) could find a productive use for it.
But, indifference, lack of vision, and complacency seem to be winning by default, as they so often do in cases like this....
Were it not for the inevitable NIMBY protests, there have been several threads on this board in the past few years about either extending the L up towards 42nd St. on the elevated line, or running the 7 down from the already-proposed Javits Center extension along the CSX line to 14th St., and from there possible along West Street to the WTC.
I think it would be great to recreate an old-fashioned el station at 23rd St. and 10th Ave., for example, but with all the growth in the area, the MTA would have to proove to everyone that sound dampering techniques would make the trains run far quieter than on the tradition NYC elevated line, since unlike the old freight train runs, we'd be talking about a few hundred trips a day by trains along that route.
I'm not sure but I think this line has only one track.
No, it has at least two.
That being the case, I'm not sure it would be impossible to use it for transit, except for the freight-only issue Conrad had mentioned.
Question -- how wide is the ROW in the tunnel north of 34th Street? Could you stick a couple of more tracks in there?
I believe the ROW is consistently wide enough for at least 3 tracks all the way north to the Trump site, and four would not be too much of a problem. But the issue is the location of the portal beneath the Javits Center. Getting more than 1 track around that would require moving columns that hold up the street.
The viaduct is 2-3 tracks.
[Were it not for the inevitable NIMBY protests, there have been several threads on this board in the past few years about either extending the L up towards 42nd St. on the elevated line, or running the 7 down from the already-proposed Javits Center extension along the CSX line to 14th St., and from there possible along West Street to the WTC.
I think it would be great to recreate an old-fashioned el station at 23rd St. and 10th Ave., for example, but with all the growth in the area, the MTA would have to proove to everyone that sound dampering techniques would make the trains run far quieter than on the tradition NYC elevated line, since unlike the old freight train runs, we'd be talking about a few hundred trips a day by trains along that route.]
It would be ideal. It seems to me you could avoid the hassle and expense of FRA compliance by simply running FRA compliant vehicles down the West Side to 14th and then via West Street to the WTC. Build some high speed, high amenity subway-sized coaches for Metro North and provide Metro North express service to the WTC. Add a few skip stop local stops to serve an otherwise unserved area, and watch businesses move there. Additional local/express services could be added as demand required.
The noise problem could be solved by using a dual pneumatic/sos system as in the Paris Metro.
But the connection is backwards. It connects from the northern tracks at Penn, heading west. Westbound trains will have to go through the station, which doesn't improve the situation, and eastbound trains would have to reverse direction on entering the station.
-Hank
[But the connection is backwards. It connects from the northern tracks at Penn, heading west. Westbound trains will have to go through the station, which doesn't improve the situation, and eastbound trains would have to reverse direction on entering the station.
-Hank]
AFAIK the connection just comes down to the truck yard across the street from Javits and stops. It's a single rail at that point.
Great source of info, Wish it could have been salvaged for Commuter service , one seat to City HAUL area.
avid
[Great source of info, Wish it could have been salvaged for Commuter service , one seat to City HAUL area.
avid]
It still could be! It's still there! It's still essentially intact to a bit below 14th Street, except where some greedy landlords have illegally built on it, and that's a done deal if they're taken to court! There's plenty of room to extend it all the way down to the WTC on the west side of West Street! There are stations up and down the West Side, just the thing to take a load off the Seventh Avenue IRT during rush hour! Sheesh! We have wonderful infrastructure sitting all over the place rotting away, while politicians and bureancrats sit on their taxpayer-fattened butts!
It wasn't built on illegally, the line is officially abandoned south of the Ganesvoort Meat Market. Some of the 'holes' have been sealed up, however.
-Hank
[It wasn't built on illegally, the line is officially abandoned south of the Ganesvoort Meat Market. Some of the 'holes' have been sealed up, however.
-Hank]
Someone posted a very interesting history on Usenet a while back. Among other things, he asserted that some landlords had sold the space through which the line runs (I'm talking about above Ganesvoort Street). When Contrail tried to reactivate the line they freaked out.
Unfortunately I can't find the information.
Any body know what SRS#403 used for??? Check out this pictures of SRS#403. I took that picture last month & this is the first time i seen this car.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page Just Updated!!!
Isn't that the Sperry Rail Systems (SRS) Track Geometry Car?
Wayne
Where was that photo taken?
Here are some Fantasy Terminals for the IRT:
1: 263St, BX---South Ferry
2: 241St, Bx---Avenue U, Bklyn
3: 155St-8Av, Manh---JFK Airport, Qns
4: Woodlawn, Bx---New Lots Av, Bklyn
5: Dyre Ave, Bx---Avenue U, Bklyn
6: Same
7: 10Av, Manhattan--- Fort Totten, Qns
9: Same as 1
S: TS---UN, Manhattan
Tomorrow the BMT:
3Train#1977Mike
[2: 241St, Bx---Avenue U, Bklyn]
You apparently forgot to extend this north to Mount Vernon.
4: E.234St-Katonah Av, Bx---Utica Ave, Bklyn
3TM
Can somone please explain to me what is meant by a narrow gauge railway. Would the IRT be an example of this ?
Narrow gauge is when the rails are narrower than the standard width of 1.435 m (4 ft 8.5 in.). IRT is standard gauge, their cars are just narrower than the rest of the system. There's also wide gauge, where (duh) the gauge is wider than the standard width, like BART in San Fran. I think the standard width is the same for the whole world.
Spain uses a different width, I believe Russia does too.
Do NOt confuse car width with gauge - they're two totally unrelated things. The IRT is standard gauge, but uses somewhat narrow cars. Some line in Africa uses a 3 foot gauge, but 10 foot wide cars!
The advantage to a wider gauge is greater stability (Which is why the Japanese bullet train is standard gauge, which is why they had to build all new tracks for it). But "standard" 4 foot 8.5 inch gauge cars have been proven stable at speeds of over 300mph, so it's really not an issue. Unless you're narrower than standard gauge, though technology may change that.
What DOES become an issue at higher speeds is weight. Lighter weight is imperative - the TGV has a maximum axle load of 17 metric tons, though the TGV NG may have to be lowered to 16, to allow higher speeds (200+mph)
17 metric tons is 16.7134 US tons (I think). Given the sets are articulated (2 axels per car), that's 33.4 tons per car, or a max weight of 66,853.6 lbs, which for a non powered car, is downright achiveable. Actually, I bet an M-1 (92,000 lbs) would weigh close to that without traction gear, and the extra truck it has (TGV cars only have one truck to them).
Gauge CAN limit speed if it's too narrow, useually stuff that's less than standard operates slower. Also gauges can limit car size, length, or weight, though they don't have to Narrow gauges are sometimes used for tighter (mountain) RRs. Broad gauges are sometimes used for historical reasons, or because the local ordinance specifies it (to prevent freight operation on streets).
Spain is partly narrow gauge. Talgo has developed a car that can change gauges. Russian is broad gauge, as is India. Japan is mostly narrow gauge.
Another issue not touched on here clearances. Many lines, especially in the northeast, have height restrictions, which are periodically "enforced" by the low bridges along the line, or the high voltage overhead.
Do NOt confuse car width with gauge - they're two totally unrelated things. The IRT is standard gauge, but uses somewhat narrow cars. Some line in Africa uses a 3 foot gauge, but 10 foot wide cars!
Africa has quite a bit of 'odd' stuff on the rails. For instance the narrow guage (1067mm; 3'6") Sishen-Saldanha iron ore line in South Africa uses a 50Kv(!) AC overhead. The locomotives on this line carry motorbikes so the train crew can move from one end of the train to the other (to troubleshoot, move manual switches, etc) without having to walk in the desert heat.
CH.
FYI there's a neat narrow gage railway link site at http://www.btinternet.com/~peterjohnson/ngrsites.htm
Brazil's RFFSA uses meter-gage for its mine railways, they have (had?) some huge Santa Fe type steam engines that you would never believe are narrow gauge.
About the smallest I ever heard of is the Romney, Hythe, and Dymchurch. The widest was a logging railway in Oregon (8 foot gage). Though it's possible they just used round logs with double flanged wheels in lieu of steel rails, many logging/temporary railways did this.
Also during the last days of WWII Hitler had some designs for super-railways of 4 meter gage (over 12 feet). These would have been colossal luxury multilevel cruise-ship type passenger trains and also huge freight trains. There was an article in TRAINS magazine about them maybe 15 or 20 years ago. I dont believe that any prototypes were built.
Also I believe the Mt Washington Cog Railway is 4' 10".
Ex-USSR, Finland are 1420mm, still condsidered wide gauge.
Arti
The Soviets adopted a 5-foot gauge because they didn't want anyone else to be able to run on their railroads. No surprise there. They also converted the railroads of countries they occupied during WWII to their wider gauge as well. Lithuania's railroads still use it today. It looks odd if you're not used to seeing it.
Here in Colorado, there is a famous narrow gauge railroad from Durango to Silverton which runs old-time passenger trains during the tourist season.
Denver Tramways, the predecessor to today's Regional Transportation District (RTD), operated streetcars on 3' 6" gauge track, the same as Los Angeles. Our light rail line today is standard gauge.
I guess Red Arrow and PTC did it for the same reason, so the other can 't extend thieir services beyond Upper Darby.
Some systems (basically northeast) wound up with non-standard gauges due to local franchise requirements, either to prevent railroad steam engines in local streets or a one that specified that the gauge be equal to the wheel gauge of the local carriges/wagons. The latter was usually specified with the thought "if we're going to give a private company the right to lay track in the public street, then the public should be able to use it." That was the case in Baltimore (5' 4 1/2"), it was most likely the reason for Philadelphia's and Pittsburgh. Louisville had 5 foot, the old southern standard. St. Louis was 4' 10", may have been an anti-steam gauge. Denver, Portland and Los Angeles retained the cable gauge of 3' 6". Standard gauge was adopted by most other properties, Washington's was specified by Congress to match the B&O's. Toronto has probably the oddest stretcar gauge, 4' 10 7/8". The story I heard was when the Toronto Railway Company (the horescar operator) came under the control of the McKenzie-Mann interests,(who also controlled the Canadian Northern Railway) the Toronto City Council, alarmed at the possiblity of steam engines chuffing down Queen Street required the TSR to cahange the gauge of its track to any gauge NOT used by the CNR. 4' 10 7/8" was the widest the wheels could be pulled out without resetting the pedestals on the cars.
Also, keep in mind that the 5' 2 1/2" was the Pennsylvania gauge since it became mandated by state law to have different gauges for streetcar lines so the steam roads couldn't easily operate on them. I've heard different versions of how Phila's became 5' 2 1/4" but have never been able to verify any of them.
Dan, Many thanks for the history lesson !
I hesitate to mention (because it will start a whole new thread) that many of these RxRs have dual gauges. Now if memory serves me right, it was done for the very reason that odd gauges were used in the first place, to allow steam engines to bring freight down the trolley ROW.
Mr t__:^)
How did New Orleans wind up with 5' 2" (or is it 5' 2 1/2"?) gauge on the St. Charles line? Was it a case of we-don't-want'-anyone-else-to run-on-that-line?
NO's "Philly" gauge is due to the fact that one of the major horsecar lines was built with Philadelphia (possibly Wiedner-Elkins) money. Cars were bought from one of the Philadelphia line's shops. Thus the Philadelphia gauge. Apparently some of the lines were originally built to standard gauge, St. Charles was not converted until 1924. The recent conversion of the Riverfront line was right in hand with Big Easy transit history.
[The Soviets adopted a 5-foot gauge because they didn't want anyone else to be able to run on their railroads. ]
I think it dates back to the days of Russian Empire. That's the reason Finland has this oddball gauge. The reason still being what you said.
There were lot of narrow gauge reailways in Baltics mostly built as private, torn up after the Soviet occupation. Streetcars in Tallinn are narrow gauge.
Arti
Lithuania had some narrow-gauge railroads prior to WWII. As you pointed out, they were most likely torn up by the Soviets. I've been to Lithuania four times, but all the railroad tracks I've seen are wide (5 foot) gauge. I could have sworn I saw what appeared to be standard gauge track in one location, though.
I wonder if Riga's streetcars use the same gauge as Tallinn's. Too bad there are no streetcars anywhere in Lithuania, although there are trolley buses in Vilnius and Kaunas.
[I could have sworn I saw what appeared to be standard gauge track in one location, though. ]
Doesn't Poland have standard gauge track? As the Vilnius region was once part of Poland it could be that some track remained standard gauge.
[I wonder if Riga's streetcars use the same gauge as Tallinn's. Too bad there are no streetcars anywhere in Lithuania, although there are trolley buses in Vilnius and Kaunas. ]
Riga is wide gauge, not sure if standard or Russian. There are trackless trolleys in Riga and Tallinn allthough in Tallinn they replaced one line with busses a month ago, not sure why as the press over there doesn't seem to care much.
Arti
Poland occupied Vilnius from 1920 to 1939. When WWII broke out, Poland was divided between Russia and Germany, and the Russians quickly converted those railroads in their sector to their wide gauge.
I would think that some standard gauge track may be put down for trains coming to Lithuania from western Europe. The wide gauge lines which continue into Russia will have to be retained.
BTW, the former border patrol house is still in place along the main highway between Vilnius and Kaunas.
You were right!
Here's the link.
Spain uses a mixture of narrow and standard gauge. I believe that they have eliminated the last vestiges of the broad gauge network out of Barcelona (changing it over to standard in the '80s - it was 5' gauge before) and they are now working on eliminating the narrow gauge.
Even the Barcelona Metro has two different track gauges (standard and narrow), and two different power collection systems (overhead and third rail), for a total of four incompatible sets of equipment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In Latvia they have a 30 km passenger only narrow gauge planned to be abandoned and saved by the public outcry. Actually the web site has quite pictoresque photos of it. If anyone cares i'll post.
Arti
Just picked up a Bus Talk pamphlet, and it had "Subway System News". It says that the switch above 180th we had been talking about a while ago with all WP Rd trains running express and all Dyre trains running local will take place in early June. I thought it was a rumor, or just something they were thinking of. But now it look like they are going to do it in a couple of months.
Also, I had read in a paper this past week (but couldn't find where I saw it the next day) that they are coming up with a way to refinish scratched glass. It involves heating it up or something. This is good. I always figured there must be a way to refinish glass. I wonder if shellaque or clear nail hardener would help. Just putting water over them makes them disppear temporarily until the water dries. (Liquids fill up the "troughs" that makes up the scratches.)
It is common practice to polish out scratches in aircraft windows, also.it is possible to repair damaged auto glass to some degree.
[Also, I had read in a paper this past week (but couldn't find where I saw it the next day) that they are coming up with a way to refinish scratched glass. It involves heating it up or something. This is good. I always figured there must be a way to refinish glass. I wonder if shellaque or clear nail hardener would help. Just putting water over them makes them disppear temporarily until the water dries. (Liquids fill up the "troughs" that makes up the scratches.)]
I read about that too. The process is being developed by some researchers at Columbia, and involves melting the surface of the glass sufficiently to fill in the scratches.
Maybe they should melt the teenagers instead . . .
Maybe they should melt the teenagers instead . . .
Why? Are the teenagers scratched?
In the last week I have seen 2 redbirds on the 2 that was rusted so bad that you could see inside the car. These cars are a complete shame. It is time the TA shoots these noble workhorses and put them out of there missery.
MAY THEY REST IN PEACE(or pieces)
Rust in Peace!
Could you tell me what car contract? R26,R28,orR29's.
methinks the score is still 4-0
I think since he was referring to the #2 line, that would indicate R33 equipment. Strange, I thought that those Redbirds were in better shape than the others. The worst ones appear to be the R26 and R29, with the R28, R33 and R36 doing somewhat better. Perhaps the one he saw was just an isolated case.
Wayne
Occassionally, they run R26 or R29 equipment on the 2. It looks like they're still doing cosmetic work on the R33. I saw 9030-31 recently and it looked like it had a new paintjob on it.
lasted longer than a r 142 will...............not bad !!
YOU WISH dude you wish!! ha ha
the truth is the r 142s wont last half as long as the redbirds did !!
The interior of R-33 cars is in much worse condition than all the others. The white ceiling paint is peeling. The tan paint on the 26-29s is in good condition. The combination of White and Tan on R-33s and R-36 cars looks the best ad brightest (or maybe it's the center lighting track.)
The good R-33s don't have the center track.
04/10/2000
{The interior of R-33 cars is in much worse condition than all the others. The white ceiling paint is peeling"
This is caused by painting on a baked enameled surface. Paint won't stick if just painted on. Perhaps with the other cars with painted ceiling, maybe a primer or polyurethane coating was applied so the paint could adhere better.
Bill Newkirk
that happened to my neighbors
house !!
The tan paint on the interior ceilings of the R26, R28 and R29 cars appears to have been baked-on enamel, it's that well done. If it was sprayed on, it was done so very carefully. The white ceilings of the R33's is a slop job, you can even see paibt brush strokes round the vents and it's peeling like an R16 throughout. The 9200's (#4 bunch) are the absoulte worst. Makes me wax nostaglic for the R16 whenever I see 'em.
Wayne
You've got the same thing happening on the SIR R44.
-Hank
04/10/2000
THIS SOUNDS LIKE A JOB FOR................B O N D O M A N !!!
Bill Newkirk
I don't think so.
THIS SOUNDS LIKE A JOB FOR................N I M C O !!!
Gee, you should have been in the cab of the one I had on Sunday. It was SNOWING INSIDE the cab, and no it was not blowing in from the window.
I'd give you the car # but it was peeling off also.
Time to cue up Rusty the Redbird.
Does anyone know what is going on in
this picture? It looks like the last car is hanging off the el. Also the last car appears to be one of the newer types, not like the R9's making up the rest of the train. Does anyone know what happened here? Where is this? There is no caption for the photo.
My guess (and only a guess!!) is that its the trainyard next to Bway Junction.
Yes, that is the East New York Yard, the train yard next to Broadway Junction.
This incident occured on a Sunday Morning. What happended was there was a yard move being made on that track. The Motorman working the work end of the move was picking up some cars on that track (How many I dont know.) The standing cars which are the cars that are to remain on the track where not resucurred. The handbrakes may have been on the cars that they were going to be picked up and he failed to put a hand brake on the remaing cars. The R-1/9 which have a ME-23 Brake Valve charge up in release. When the cutting was thrown, the standing cars not having any handbrakes on at all, just started to roll toward the block. Since the tracks on the deck at East New York have an incline toward the block,this was the end result. The lucky thing about it the truck which fell on top of a bus parked bellow the deck damaged the bus. If this had been a Weekday instead of a Sunday there might have been a fatatility.
The word cutting should read cutting key. I clicked on the message post without proofreading what I wrote.
That's East New York Yard, and it seems that a train lost its brakes, went through the bumper and over the edge of the yard, which is built, I believe, on the roof of the ENY depot and bus maintainence facility.
-Hank
Yes but there is a better photo of it in the Car Roster Archives under 'collisions'. The car (train) was not properly secured and left in charge without the brake-plug in the controller. The air bled off and the train rolled backwards. The end of the car overhung the upper deck of East NY Yard. The truck actually fel to the bus yard below and into a bus. This actually happened in the 70s
was not properly secured and left in charge without the brake-plug in the controller. The air bled
off and the train rolled backwards.
By "charge" do you mean electric holding? If you are in electric
holding on AMUE but no electric brake plug is in, that's the same
as release.
Or does he mean with the air lines charged and the air brakes applied but no parking brake set?
It was 11/7/1976. There's a better photo of it:
Hank and Train Dude explained what happened.... I'll update the captions.
-Dave
Actually now that I look at it, the dates are suspect. Joe Testagrose reported 11/1976 as the date of the picture but we have the incident listed in the Scrap List as of 1969. I think I'm voting with Joe T. on this one, and I'll update the scrap list. Well, maybe Stef knows for sure.
-Dave
[Actually now that I look at it, the dates are suspect. Joe Testagrose reported 11/1976 as the date of the picture but we have the incident listed in the Scrap List as of 1969. I think I'm voting with Joe T. on this one, and I'll update the scrap list. Well, maybe Stef knows for sure.]
Note that the subway cars visible in both pictures are graffiti-free. That sounds a lot more like 1969 than 1976.
I'd go with Joe's date. MTA Blue and Silver subway cars didn't start appearing until early 1970.
-Stef
Hmm. I'm becoming weary of the date on the picture. I just forgot when grafitti made it's grand entrance. Perhaps it could be later than 1969, but earlier than 1976. I was judging the photo based on the time the car were painted in MTA Blue and Silver. Grafitti made it's debut on the BMT/IND approximately 1972? Perhaps the photo should be dated about 1971.
-Stef
I'd have to side with you, Stef - perhaps circa 1971 would be an accurate date. No graffitti is visible anywhere; by 1976 every R-7A and R-9 remaining was bathed in it; and there were few left in 1976.
I started seeing blue/silver paint jobs on R-7A and R-9 early in 1971.
Wayne
I never saw a silver and blue R-7/9 in revenue service. Not too many of them got repainted.
Then there was the BMT standard which literally went too far at 168th St. and - whoooooops! - dropped its front truck onto the street. Wonder if the truck blasted a crater...-)
No, but it did manage to flatten a Buick! :o>
Wayne
btw ~60 R-7A/R-9 got those awful paint jobs. Don't have a numbers list, though. They were all Eastern Division cars; they never painted the Jamaica R-6s and R-7s, nor the remaining R-4s.
Chances are you could compile at least a partial list of car numbers from the photos in the car section. It seems the units which were repainted were chosen randomly; i. e., they weren't consecutively numbered. The 2000 calendar has a photo of a 1500-series R-7A at 168th St. decked out in silver and blue. I think it's safe to say that those 60 cars were the only ones in the R-1/9 series EVER to get repainted on the exterior anyway. The others spent their entire careers without ever having a paintbrush applied to their exteriors.
I'd go with the 1969 date for two reasons: (1) the lack of graffiti on the R-9 types (by '76 almost the entire fleet was covered); (2) the Fishbowl near the bottom of the picture is in the original green color-scheme (by the late 70's they were done over in MTA white w/blue stripe).
Just a couple of observations that make the earlier date seem the best bet.
Doug aka BMTman
Didn't the buses start out as a light blue w/dark blue stripe?...I know after the transit strike in 1980 or the debut of the Grummans and RTS fleet, the buses started getting the white paint treatment
Green first then blue / light blue then white / blue
You're right -- when they first started doing buses in the "MTA" image, they were dark blue lower painted portions, and a light/medium upper portion.
The white upper portions started showing up in late 1978 according to photos in Motor Coach Age.
I'm gonna guess later than 1969, but earlier than 1976.
No subway cars were painted silver and blue until mid-1970. As others have said, by mid-1970's grafitti took its toll.
There were still some green TA buses in 1979 when I photographed
a few in the areas of Jamaica (a 5600 series Flxible), East New York (a 2100 series GM TDH5301) and Williamsburg Bridge (2038, another TDH5301).
You make some good points there. I forgot that the silver/blue on the R-9's didn't occur till after '69. My money is between the years of 1970 and 1972. Even by '73 graffiti was starting to so up throughout the system, yet there is not a speck on any of the cars in the picture.
'70 to '72 is my final answer.
Doug aka BMTman
On the I.R.T. silver & blue did not start appearing until 4/70.(On the R17's) By late 1973 / early 1974 all cars painted red were now blue & white. The TA painted several of these I.N.D. cars Silver & blue in early 1972. So 1969(Boo!) 1976(Boo!) 1972-73.(right on!)
04/10/2000
After studying this picture it appears to me that this is commonly known in the TA as removing an existing bumping block without permission!
Bill Newkirk
Somebody probably posted this answer already, but R-9 #1761 lost her bearings in East New York Yard and tipped past the bumper blocks and so into thin air. This is the Alabama Avenue station end of the yard you're looking at
Wayne
I've noticed that the Bowery station on the J/M and Z lines, once a deserted ghost-station, is being used by quite a lot of Asian riders in recent months. Looks like Chinatown's growth is continuing unabated.
I have never seen people get on that station, except maybe one or two in rush hour. Why do both the J & Z stop there. They should have closed that station years ago.
I was shocked to see 20+ people, mostly asian, at the Bowery today around 4:55 PM.
You saw people?!?
SHould had took a picture, not every day you see that many people.
It was downright packed! I feared that people might fall to the tracks. LOL.
BTW, anyone know what the constructon going on at the back of the southbound platform is for? IS the TA finally gonna rebuild this decrepit monument to neglect?
Yes, I believe they are fixing the curtain wall and fallen tile - probably falls under the category of "necessary repair" rather than rehab.
Wayne
Today, I noticed they are preparing the platform edges for new tile, thus the station must be getting it's long overdue rehab. Nothing is being done on the northbound side (like Canal St.).
Now if they could do something about a certain station two stops further down - the one which needs renovations on the same scale as Ellis Island....
You mean the one that they're thinking of running LRVs into?
Were they headed towards Williamsburg or downtown? Some of them may have decicded to take the M during rush hour to DeKalb because it's less crowded than getting the B/D/Q at Grand Street, and you have a better chance of getting a seat. Time-wise, it's a lot slower, even with the speed restrictions on the Manny B.
Bowery will always have a usage problem because it's the only station downtown without direct access to an uptown line. Maybe in the far distant future if they hook the Second Ave. line up to it the usage will improve.
They should build a transfer passageway to Grand Street B/D/Q station from Bowery, if possible. How far is the end of the Grand street platform from Kenmare Street?
Wayne
Judging by the track maps, it looks like the Grand Street platforms run to about Hester Street, which would still leave a block gap to Delancey/Kenmare.
That's probably a little too long to justify a transfer point, since the J/M/Z already hooks up with the F headed uptown at Essex Street, and with the N/R at Canal (and the Broadway Express/Manny B connection, assuming the bridge work is ever done).
Easing the massive congestion at Delancy St from passangers transferring off the J/M and Z lines might justify it. However, BDQ trains might not be able to absorb the load as it is already should a connection get built.
It might just the B and D if the Manny B hold up?????
3TM
Bowery will always have a usage problem because it's the only station downtown without direct access to an uptown line.
What about Broad St, First and Third Avenues.
[[Bowery will always have a usage problem because it's the only station downtown without direct access to an uptown line.]
[What about Broad St, First and Third Avenues.]
Broad Street is a major destination station, being right in the middle of the financial district, directly across the street from the NYSE. First Avenue on the L is the only game in town, so to speak, as the only station serving a fairly populous area (Stuyvestant Town, Peter Cooper Village, part of the Tompkins Square area, etc.) And don't forget that the L offers convenient connections to the main Manhattan lines. Third Avenue on the L seems to be a lot less busy than First Avenue, as it's too close to the Union Square station complex.
First Ave. is a "destination station" that serves a wide area to the east which has no other access to a subway. If doesn't directly go north or south, but it's the only way for people in that area to get to a line that does (since it's my old station I know where I speak of here). Bowery in contrast, has nearby stations (Grand on the B/D/Q or Spring on the 6) that serve the north-south subway riders.
Broad Street benefits from access to Brooklyn to the south during rush hours and from all times when the financial district is humming Monday through Friday from the north. Also, when the N express was still going over the Manny B, the J/M/Z could be used as a connection to Wall and Broad by Broadway Express riders.
Third Ave. is probably the second most unused station in the lower Manhattan area, though since the neighborhood is on the rise, usage is probably up over the past few years.
But some day, it will fufill its destiny as a transfer point from the L to the Second Ave. Subway ;)
They were headed out over the Willy B.
[I was shocked to see 20+ people, mostly asian, at the Bowery today around 4:55 PM.]
That's something like 20% of the station's average daily ridership - which makes me suspect that the ridership figures are out of date.
They must be. All these additional people were asian. That's a new thing to me.
Tour group?
Chris,
Some of those Asian people are actually going Queens-bound. Which side was this when you saw the 20+ people?
A Side Note that this was tagged as one of the "more dangerous" stations in respect to the ratio of crimes to passengers. That was a few years back, but does anyone else know if this still holds true today?
[A Side Note that this was tagged as one of the "more dangerous" stations in respect to the ratio of crimes to passengers. That was a few years back, but does anyone else know if this still holds true today?]
I don't know the answer to your question, but note that we may be dealing with a statistical quirk. Given Bowery's very low ridership, just a few crimes could have thrown the statistics out of whack and made the station look very dangerous.
The Queens bound side. I was on my way home to Queens when I noticed it.
Let me see now, weekend shopping along the Bowery. Dim Sum lunch off Grand Steet. Meeting family etc.....
Yes the station is being used......by fare paying riders who work hard to put their children through college, and enjoying the fruits of their labor while working in unionized sweatshops.
I should also note that some of the Asian immigrants who use this station actually are going Queens-bound.
Personally, I only entered this station once to go back home with my grandparents (which was eons ago). 99.5% of the time my grandparents use Canal Street to get back home.
Nick
The Bowery stop is very convenient to Sammy's Roumanian Restaurant but I would suggest that you float a bond issue before entering. :-)
And, the station is directly downstairs from the Bowery Ballroom, the best live music venue in the city...
The Bowery suffers from 2 things: it's served by 2 lines which only go to Brooklyn, Queens or downtown Manhattan. No way to get uptown from this stop. The condition of the station is number 2. It's deserted, falling apart, and has a nasty odor.
Sometimes, I just can't believe the mistakes made by traffic reporters when it comes to problems on the subway. For example:
"F trains are running on the G line from Queensboro Plaza to Bergen Street..."
OK. It's a minor mistake: confusing Queensboro Plaza (the elevated serving the 7 and N trains) with Queens Plaza (The underground IND station serving E, F, G, and R trains). The two stations are in the same neighborhood. However, some reports don't even come close to being correct. Like this:
"4 trains are not running between Woodside..."
Since when do 4 trains make any stops in Queens, where Woodside is? The correct station is Woodlawn. My goodness! To all traffic reporters: if you want to say something about problems in the subway, make sure you get the stations right! People who do listen for subway problems might ignore those mistakes and go to the affected area anyway!
When I'm working on WCBS, if I hear an error I will call up our
traffic reporters (Shadow Traffic, under contract). Since Shadow
is in New Jersey, many of the reporters are not familiar with
the subway system, and would not know an error if they were just
reading the "script." How the errors creep in I don't know; I've
never been to their operation. As was reported in a similar thread
a few weeks ago, Shadow only knows what the TA tells them. It would
probably serve them well to read the diversions page of the NYCTA
web site!
One of the Shadow traffic reporters (now departed), Ray Rossi, was
indeed a subway fan. Not only did he always "get it right," but
he would often introduce me with a great line such as, "Hey Todd,
looks like a great day to ride a Slant-40 over the Manhattan
Bridge!"
In today's world of journalism, they could stand by their story. The 4 trains are not running between Woodside (or Woodbridge, Woodhaven...) so it's not like they gave anyone technically inaccurate information ;)
Yes, it's technically correct to announce that the #4 is not running to Woodhaven, Woodridge, or Wouldjabelieve.
However, such an announcement implies that the #4 normally does serve such a location. Therein lies the error.
I know. I was just saying that in the era of "it depends on what the meaning of the word `is' is," the traffic reporter could say his statement about the 4 train not going to Woodside was technically accurate, even if it did provide the listeners with completely useless information.
Bob Diamond and his trolleys made today's Post. If the city gives approval they are going to begin laying the track for about a mile run. Bob, any more details?
Brooklyn Trolley Cars The print edition includes a picture.
Yes, congrats to Bob D for his coverage in both The Post AND on this morning's WINS NEWS. They did a report on the Brookyn Historic Railway's possible Red Hook-Downtown Brooklyn connecting route. I was surprised they gave them some time on the 1/2 hour reports.
From one 'gem' to anther: Best of Luck, Bob!
Doug aka BMTman
04/10/2000
TROLLEYS WILL RETURN TO BROOKLYN !!
This calls for a celebration!
Perhaps a couple of Nathan's hot dogs with french fries washed down with Dr. Browns Cel-Ray soda! And for good measure a slice of Juniors cheescake for dessert. And to work off those calories, a healthy game of stickball in the street! Now if we could bring back the Dodgers and rebuild Coney Island to it's former glory, we'll have Brooklyn again!
Bill Newkirk
Hey, Bill! Don't forget we have to have a skelly (sp?) tournament. Remember that bottle-cap game played on the asphalt?
AND a Threes-Stooges marathon! Nyek, Nyek Nyek.
Doug aka BMTman
We use to call it "skellsies", or something like that. I can't remember how it was played or what the rules were.
"Moe, Larry... Cheese!!
Awww, Flatbush Flatheads, eh? Wise guys!
I wonder if they're going to have period reproduction trolleys made (perhaps by the same folks that made them for New Orleans - WHAT WAS THEIR NAME AGAIN???) PCC's anyone? Peter Witts?
Wayne
The new "replica" cars in the Big Easy were built by Elmer von Dulen's people at the Carrolton Shops of the NORTA. These are the first streetcars to be built at the shops of the operating company in over 70 years. The last property to build cars in their own shops was the Third Avenue Railway Company in the 1930's.
The running gear that NO is using under their new cars is made by CKD Tatra of the Chech Republic for about $300k a set. These are teh same folks who were given the TRC patents on PCC technology, and produced many times the cars built here in the states. They still make them in fact (the T3R), tho benefitting from 50+ years of improvements.
A complete US compliant T3R could be had for about $650k NEW.
CBS this AM had two pieces that they ran frequently: Hudson-Bergen, and Bob Diamond's trolley's on 6th Ave.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for all the good wishes !
Bob D
The POST article pretty much explains the important points. Maybe in a few days, I can go into some more detail.
I was really surprised at how the media picked this up- it was great.
Meanwhile, hold your breath and keep your fingers crossed!
One day, this will make an interesting book, especially about how it was done.
Bob
When and where is the public hearing that the Post mentioned?
I had the privilege to visit BTM in the summer of 98 and earlier this year. A job well done.
But on a sad note, a part of the Brooklyn trolley that once ran in the streets of Greenpoint are being rip up. If any one is familiar with the Brooklyn route, the trackage from Box Street to Greenpoint Ave along Manhattan Ave have been taken out. It seems that this
process will continue towards Driggs Ave. This is to rebuilt Manhattan Ave which is in sad shape.
The MBTA is Boston is having a lottery to fill operator vacancies. Here is the notice from their Web site:
Posting Date:MARCH 26, 2000
Deadline Date:MAY 1, 2000
Position Number:0000
Title:2000 JOB LOTTERY
Union Affiliation:LOCAL 589
Salary:SEE COUPON
Department:BUS OPERATIONS, SUBWAY OPERATIONS AND SYSTEMWIDE MAINTENANCE & IMPROVEMENTS
Are you interested in a challenging career at the MBTA as a Part-Time Bus Operator, Part-Time Train Attendant, Part-Time Streetcar Motorperson or Full-Time
Track Laborer? Then fill out a 2000 Job Lottery Coupon today!! Look in our webpage's "News & Information" under "What's New" and then "Special Events"
to find a printable coupon. Fill out the coupon and mail it to the address listed. DO NOT MAIL THE COUPON TO THE HUMAN RESOURCES
DEPARTMENT.
Here is the coupon (note it's a PDF file).
Yesterday I was coming back from Chinatown, and I saw a B train which was half R-68 cars and half R-68A cars. Why did they have a train with half R-68 cars and half R-68A cars? Did four R-68A cars get damaged a while ago?
The West End Line has an express track for peak-direction rush hour express service. Why didn't the MTA run the B express in the peak direction during the rush hours when the M runs to/from Bay Parkway? They can do it. That's what the express track is there for.
I ususally see the mixed train on the N line. As far as I know, there has been a mixed train running around for years.
There are no expresses because they would bypass the more dense neighborhoods along the line. Since there were never any expresses to begin with, the added development did not occur around the express stops. (Actually, only one express stop - 62nd.)
Bay Parkway is also an express stop. I get the feeling the only reason 62nd St. was made an express stop was because of the transfer to the Sea Beach.
I was under the impression that, 68's and 68A's could not be mixed.
Peace,
Andee
All SMEE cars can be mixed.
All Smee can be mixed but why for years were 68a and 68's never run in passenger service? and R62 and R62A STILL are not run in revenue service?
inquiring minds want to know.. I remember a motor instructor during C/R School Car mentioning Kawasaki R68a could never run in PASSENGER service with R68's made by Westinghouse
This can be better answered by our own in-house expert-Steve
I was told that the electric portion on the R68A has an extra row of pins. Therefore, they aren't compatible electrically.
All smee cars are compatible which each other we make yard moves all the time in Coney Island Yard without retriving the portions. This includes R-68 and R-68A mixed together or with other smee cars. The doors work when the cars are coupled to other smees if they are properly zoned up. I tried and they worked. Although I never tried opening up the doors on a R-68 and R-68A coupled together.
All the R-68s can play with each other. They just can't play with their older brothers the R-44 and R-46, who have never been able to play with each other, anyway.
Even Brian Cudahy, of all people, goofed on the R-44/R-46 issue in the original edition of Under the Sidewalks of New York. He stated the the R-44s can m. u. with the R-46s. Unh-uh. I even remember a handwritten message inside an R-44 cab which said, "Do not couple electrically to R-46."
First of all, there would be too much switching at Bay Parkway. The M uses the center track to turn around. If the B was running express, it would have to wait for the M. The B would also have to switch back to the local track to serve Bay 50st and 25 ave. Too many delays.
Second, many people use the "local" stops. It wouldn't pay off.
I think the #5114-13-15-16 bunch had some minor anticlimber/bonnet damage a year or two ago, perhaps since been fixed.
Wayne
Do you know the cause?
I believe the "B" Bumped the Bumper at Stillwell Avenue, causing very minor damage. They're probably back in service already.
Wayne
Gee, I wonder how fast it could have been going.-)
Probably about 500 yards an hour! :o>
Wayne
it is still running on the N I was on it last night, about 4:50 north from Whitehall
Most of the riders on the West End Line use the B Serivce to get to Midtown Manhattan. There are more people that use the other stations than 62 Street and 9 Avenue. The M Train helps to seperate the Wall Street Passengers from the the Passe
ngers going to Midtown.
I don't see anything objectionable about mixing R68's with R68A's.
If the cars can be joined, and if a mix is necessary in order to provide service, then go ahead and mix.
According to Classic Toy Trains (March 2000), MTH is offering a four car set for $199.95. The same with Protosound, $299.95. Unpowered two car add-on set is $39.95.
The cars appear to be an R-42 stock. Comes painted in silver with MTA decals, car numbers, and "E" line signs.
The magazine photos show no lights, hand rails, no bewteen car safety chains, etc.
The Protosound has the hiss of air lines, people rushing in and out, another subway train passing by, door chimes, etc.
Has anyone seen this prototype?
WWW.MTH-Railking.Com
Seen the prototype? I use to ride it to work.
On the other hand, I have not seen the actual hi-rail model yet.
Got IT and the "D" version with the blue waistband. A Carefull exam will show the couplers at the TO end extends further then the couplers were the draw bar would have been.
Check out the 2000 Volume II catologue , The R?21's look nice, Redbirds,
Now children play nice , no fighting or name calling!
avid
I've seen this in the Transit Museum store a little while back!
R142 Boi 2K
I recently acquired a side destination curtain.
It is marked:
R-42; E cars; September 12, 1969; printed by Trans-Lite
It has the following readings:
179 Street /E/ Hudson Terminal
179 Street /E/ Euclid Ave.
179 Street /E/ Lefferts Blvd
Continental Ave /E/ Aqueduct
179 Street /E/ Rockaway Park
179 Street /E/ Far Rockaway
179 Street /F/ Church Ave
179 Street /F/ Coney Island
179 Street /F/ Second Ave
179 Street /F/ kings Highway
Special /S/ Special
Between each reading is a corresponding line map showing all the connections including the EE and GG. This is the part of the curtain that is seeing in the inside of the car.
QUESTION: is this the same curtain that came with the slanted R-40s??
Thanks.
The R-40 used a wrap around map in which the route boarders the frame. It also show where other lines run on the same set of rails, such as 6th Ave, 8th Ave, Jamica IND. The R42 is a straight line map. It only list transfer point. Experienced riders knows the 6th Ave line run together from 47-50th St to Bway Lafayette as on the R40 maps, but clueless on the R42 map.
Not with the original Slant R40 as delivered. You probably have one from an R40M or 4900-series R42 (before they went to Eastern Division they ran on E/F).
Wayne
The orginal signs which only had E and F readings, the route was squared off instead of a circle. If you have a square route sign than you have an orginal R-40 sign
04/10/2000
RE: recently sold AT&T Metrocards.
Am looking for the ones in Spanish, whether "street sign" or times square" cards (20 minutos or 11 rides). Will trade if interested. PLEASE REPLY BY E-MAIL ONLY.
Bill Newkirk
04/10/2000
This Saturday April 15th, the long awaited Hudson Bergen Light Rail line opens after some ceremonies. I read that it will be running from 12noon to 6PM unless this has changed.
I assume the Saturday running will be free from fares with regular fare collection beginning on Monday,April 17,2000. I don't know about Sunday April 16th, anybody know about Sunday?
Timetables are available at the New Jersey Transit customer service offices at Penn Station (adj. Trk.7) and Hoboken Terminal. Not sure about Newark Penn station. Timetables are in a bluish green color.
Pray for lotsa sunlight and but film!!
Bill Newkirk
I got my timetable at Newark Penn Station.
I also heard that you will need to buy a ticket from day 1!
In addition, over the next ten years, the line will be extended further south in Bayonne and farther north all the way to Ridgefield and Saddle Brook.
There was an extensive article in yesterday's (Apr 10) Star-Ledger (Jersey's equivilant of the Times ;-) that talks about the plans for expansion and includes a map indication when each section is expected to go into service.
Greetings!
Fellow subtalkers, it's been awhile. In recent days or
nights more correctly I have been working along our new
63rd Street connector.
Construction is almost complete with most all the heavy
work done. Signal messenger lines are in place and this
weekend the cables were being pulled. In the relay rooms
Local 3 IBEW electricians are hard at work terminating the
over 100,000 wires for controlling the new interlocking at
36 Street. It's all heavy duty cable and the relays are
state of the art. The layers of redundancy involved is
staggering, yet understandable when relability and not
cost is the goal. When I asked the electrican's forman how
many of the 100,000 wires he thought might be mis-routed,
his incredible answer was just 10. I figured per man or 10
a day. No, just 10 on the whole job. They're that good.
These are the same guys who do the Williamsburg Bridge and
the West End Line and White Plains. More on those projects
later.
The new signal tower for the interlocking will no longer
be at 36 Street. I'm still kicking myself for not carting
away the old IND model board when I had the chance. It
went into THE TRASH! The new one will be incorporated into
the Queensboro Plaza master tower. The new model boards
are wrapped in plastic and resting on the floor of QBP
tower for a few months now. When installed they will see
as far as mid Queens and will control all that the current
tower at 21 st Queensbridge does now in addition to the
new interlocking. The old tower at Queens Plaza IND will
remain for now. Engaved onto the model board are the route
names: E, F, R and Q.
Work trains have been venturing down onto the T1 and T2
tracks from 36th Street for over a month already. South of
the junction with tracks D1,2,3 and 4, tracks T1 and T2
curve to the right at about the same gradient as the curve
between Broadway-Nassau and Chambers Street on the Eighth
Av line. The speed limit there is a healthy 23 MPH.
Without a timer. I can already envision the zealous speed
restricion of 15 MPH being placed here, WITH a timer! The
rail being new is rusty and wheel slip has been a problem,
but most work train men are competent enough to deal with
it. In time the rail will be polished, so it won't be a
problem for passenger trains. There are still no tunnel
lights so the contractor's temporary lighting remains.
It's brighter anyhow. So I'm not complaining.
Third rail has been laid but the rail remains to be welded
as of yet. Feeder cables are mostly in place but not yet
connected either. Protection boards are being delayed by
shipment troubles.
The contractors performing the work for the most part are
competent and fast working. M Track enterprises has one
gang in particular overnights. Those kids work HARD. On
the other hand Laquilla heavy construction works sloppy
and at times unsafe. Last summer I actually witnessed one
of their drillers die in an on the job accident. It could
have been prevented. The man killed was a mere 9 months
before his retirement. OSHA shut the entire job down for
some time afterward.
What I find amazing is that just weeks after having
original concrete being poured, the ceiling is already
leaking ground water like a seive. The puddles are muddy
and a steady rain falls in places rusting through new
beams. What's up with that?
On the lower unused LIRR level, there are no lights,
catwalks or structures. It's a hole in the ground that the
MTA dumped money into and forgot about. It's got some
entertainment value as an underground explorers pastime.
On the Manhattan side it ends in the blasted out bedrock
wall. Primitive looking indeed.
Last night I worked at the Lexington Avenue station.
Exploration was a given. The north (east actually) end of
the station has an entire entrance complex which was
constructed but never completed. Bare concrete walls and
floors, it's eleven stories from the lower track level to
the sealed up street stairways. Vast openings in the
stairway shafts point to obvious locations for escalators.
I had visited this site in 1987, and since then nothing as
changed except the level of dust and water leakage. The
location where the token booth should be has a maze of
passageways which more appropriately should be called
catacombs. None of it is lighted except for occasional
naked light bulbs and it's painfully obvious the homeless
at one time in the past inhabited the location.
I was amazed to find that the heel of my boot, lost on
that summer day 13 years ago was still there. On the G3
and G4 tracks behind the station wall, where N and R
trains are layed up there is a serious water problem. This
remains entirely unseen from the passenger side of the
station because of the false ceiling installed. Cracks as
long as 30 feet exist and engineering chalk marks with
dates old as a decade point to the TA's awareness of the
problem. In some places these cracks gush water in
torrents on to the track below. In winter the stalagtites
of ice are an absolute wonder to behold. Twenty feet long
and as thick as a 55 gallon barrel. On to the trains drips
a steady flow of the mineral rich effluence. Now we know
where those milky streaks come from on some of the R-68's
guys.
Walking east on G4 or G3 takes you about 600 feet from the
Lexington Av station. Curving north for their ultimate
connetion with Second Av. the tracks end about 400 feet
from the tunnel ending itself where like on the LIRR level
it's a bedrock wall, not too different from a natural
cave. The tunnel floor of the upper level which is track
G3 ends before the wall. The lower level below is quite
visible through the opening at the floor. Don't slip.
On the other end of Lexington Av. there are rooms for the
Track Department which remain unused. Fully finished
locker rooms and lavatories, open and vandalized or
flooded and all the appointments destroyed by water
damage. New and never used lockers, benches, sinks showers
and toilets. Tens of thousands of dollars invested and
wasted. Meanwhile the track men in some places make due in
facilites described best as medievial.
My purpose for being at the Lexington Av. station last
night was to provide flagging protection for get this:
asbestos workers! In a tunnel younger than me, asbestos
was installed! Incredible huh? No matter to me though. The
reason I had all that free time last night to explore was
they never showed up.
In conclusion I am not surprsed by what I have seen this
weekend. It's become the norm for the Transit Authority to
waste money, and accept shoddy workmanship. Did you expect
any better?
On a different note: yes that was my name in the Chief.
List number 18 on the new Motorman's roster. With a number
like that how can I resist? This way I get ahead of the
almost two years worth of provisional appointees. And
consequently avoid an extended period at the crew office's
mercy, or lack thereof.
Yeah I'll take it, so look for me at the front rather than
the middle of the train soon. Meanwhie the new schedules
go into effect April 30th and I have ventured onto the
Brighton Express. Ok, so I live near Jamaica yard, am I
crazy? Not at all, like Steve, I don't mind travelling for
a good job. I love that Brighton!
In Transit;
Erik F. Garces
Conductor/Construction Flagger
IND-BMT
Thank you Erik for that wonderful post! It's information like this that makes SubTalk a gem.
See you on the Q!
I hope they open the connection soon -- before whatever bond issue is up for transporation. It's been a long time since New Yorkers have benefitted from an actual transporation improvement. Most of us have no idea what it is like.
Well the ARcher Ave connector was an "improvement".
[I hope they open the connection soon -- before whatever bond issue is up for transporation. It's been a long time since New Yorkers have benefitted from an actual transporation improvement. Most of us have no idea what it is like.]
Sure we do. They spend $1 billion and people study . . .
Good One, Josh!!!
Perhaps if see a repeat of "the Beame shuffle", we can look forward to walking in the muck of the Second Avenue Line instead of rolling through it. I heard about the death. Was that the guy in the Steinway Tubes on the scaffolding without a harness? Good work lad.
Great report! Welcome back Erik.
-Mark
ditto
Maybe if we had a couple of hundred more like you the system would improve dramatically.
Its a shame about the Model Board. What a waste to throw it away instead of giving it to someone who would give it a good home and keep it in working order. It just shows you that if you ever see an artifact like that grab it, grab it, grab it! I still regret that when I got into Winslow tower I didn't grab that old towerman's chair.
OH! When I saw it that's the first thing I thought of. How I could walk out with the eight foot by three foot board. It didn't weigh much but was too large to handle alone. I left it until I could get one of my compatriots to help. But like I wrote, by then it was gone.
Transit Pron -- I mean Erik -- welcome back!
And congratulations on your T/O position! Just let us know where they put ya.
Your adventures sound quite familiar to me as the trip that my track-worker friend took me on about six years ago. I thought we were under Roosevelt Island or something. Huge catacombs (with fully functional bathrooms!). I remember bare bulbs hung around the various stairwells. I recall alot of them were quite steep, too! The location outside of Lexington Avenue must've been where my friend took me. I'll have to ask him to be sure.
Later,
Doug aka BMTman
Great report, thanks.
Ride the Q everyday, hope to catch your train and say hi.
Yeah, three trips, from 11 to 7 Mon to Wed. Love that Brighton!
[Yeah, three trips, from 11 to 7 Mon to Wed. Love that Brighton! ]
Is that a typical work week, or do you do something else on Thu and Fri?
dave
I'm off on those days, and I have D runs on the weekends. Same hours, I like to sleep late, and I was traumatized when I was new with too many 3 and 4 AM reports.
Not to pry, but if you wanted to work one of your off days and take off one of your work days, can you guys do that? Is that something that the TWU takes care of? I worked in the IATSE and we could always work something out with the business agent in a pinch. It seems like in all trades management is trying to take a more active role in matters that unions used to mind for themselves.
[I digress]
dave
HAHAHAHahahahahHHAHAHAHAH! Wait a minute while I get up off the floor.
No, if I need a day off other than my regular day off (and even on that day sometimes!) I have to jump through hoops. Thirty days notice and then you get a possible answer. If it's yes then you won't know until three days before.
I can work my day off if I choose, and many times I'm forced to.
Erik,
Great post! I ride the Q regularly - any idea yet what your schedule will be?
Good luck,
subfan
[On the lower unused LIRR level, there are no lights,
catwalks or structures. It's a hole in the ground that the
MTA dumped money into and forgot about. It's got some
entertainment value as an underground explorers pastime.
On the Manhattan side it ends in the blasted out bedrock
wall. Primitive looking indeed.]
Well, maybe, someday ... in about 20 years, if we're lucky (sigh).
I have a question about the 63rd St subway connection. It is designed to take trains off both the local and express. Let's say a train comes off the express toward 63rd Street, but must pause at the express-local merge switch to allow a train of the local to pass in front. Is there enough room between switches to let the local go through without blocking the QB line express tracks?
The setup is a 'Y' setup, so there are no crossings.
-Hank
Right. If a Westbound express wanting 63rd St. reached the switch while a Westbound local was taking the 63rd St. track, the express would have to stop at the switch, blocking the westbound express trains behind it.
Yes. But this is exactly how it works at any number of places in the system, like 47-50th and Columbus Circle.
-Hank
Thanks!
Arti
Welcome back, Erik! I had the opportunity to explore much of the station shell myself a couple of years ago on a Transit Museum tour - we were scheduled to go to the Second Avenue piece in Chinatown but something was going on so they let us explore Lexington Avenue instead. We didn't get to the finished/trashed rooms but we did climb all the way up and down - quite a place.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Erik - fascinating report!
Watch out for #4314 - he's a real live wire. You can easily make him do 50MPH. Love that "Q" train!
Wayne
04/11/2000
Erik,
Your LONG post was one of the few that I wish was longer!
Great piece.
Can some of what you saw qualify for "Forgotten NY"
Bill Newkirk
selective amnesiac newyorkis syndrom
avid
[Local 3 IBEW electricians are hard at work terminating the
over 100,000 wires for controlling the new interlocking at
36 Street.]
Sounds like someone should invent computers, networks and optical fiber!
It's been done!! The real trick is to use it!!!
Why is it a trick? What's the problem?
And I have another question: How can relays be "state of the art?" Are these magnetic relays we're talking about or is it that the word "transistor" is considered vulgar at the TA?
Transistors, integrated circuits and computers are used in TA
signalling. However, there are areas where accepted signal
practice requires the use of heavy-duty, failsafe "vital" relays.
You'll find the same thing in computerized elevator controls.
There are certain safety-critical functions that, by code, need
to be interruptible by a mechanical relay.
Solid state devices are certainly much smaller and more efficient,
but they have an unfortunate habit of failing in a non-safe manner.
[How can relays be "state of the art?" ]
These are probably solid-state relays (opto-coupled triacs.)
Arti
This morning, I had an interesting trip from my house (in Chevy Chase) to school (in Potomac). I walked to Friendship Heights (it was FREEZING!) and I was lucky to have a train arrive as got on the platform. As we approached Bethesda, an announcement was made that we would skip the Medical Center Station. There were 3 other passengers on the car and the 2 who were going to Medical Center started to fuss about having to get off this train and get on the next. They complained that this train was moving slow earlier in the run and that the other 2 trains should skip the station or something like that. Now, WMATA has trains skip stations when they are so far behind schedule, there is a train directly behind them and there is a large enough gap in front to do skip a station. I tried to explain this to my fellow passengers but they merely told me they knew why (but obviously didn't or else they would have realized the train behind us couldn't skip the station without being right on our tail). There is still snow at Grosvenor on the inbound track just south of the platform. That stuff may take a while to melt.
I also have a question, which is how are the WMATA trains desiganted for the radio. This morning, all I could hear was 1289, which was the first car of the train. Would someone please explain to me the way the trains are designated. Thanks, in advance.
I saw this on WSB TV a little while ago.
Around 2:30am, 4/10, a worker was killed and another injured while working on the ceiling above the tracks at the Lenox station. They were in a "cherry picker" (a moveable platform to work on the ceiling) above the tracks when an unscheduled train was going though the station to pick up passengers at Lindbergh. They don't know why the workers didn't see the train coming.
Trains don't normally run from about 1:30am to about 4:30am so workers can do maintaince on the system.
Or why the train didn't see the workers coming, or why they didn't have six white light bulbs up on the track, or why nobody could have radioed the workers about this.
Arent these trains automated with no man operator onboard?
They're automated, but there is a person of front to make station annoucements and open the doors. Presumably, they are also there in case of an emergency to override the computers. I guess there investigating why the operator didn't do anything. It was probably human error that caused it (my speculation).
Why no flag men or system lock outs?
There's an article in today's SI Advance (and a 1/2 page ad in Sunday's) for the HBLR. It's being pushed as another route for SI commuters to Manhattan, but apparantly MTA bus service into NJ is not a priority.
-Hank
What (private) busses run between SI and Bayonne and/or Jersey City? How can I find out more so I can go home around the harbor?
Boulevard Transit Lines Inc. (Drogin Bus Co.) used to run a line starting at Port Authority, going downtown through the Holland Tunnel into Jersey City and Bayonne. The bus made all local stops along Kennedy Boulevard and then crossed the Bayonne Bridge into Staten Island where it terminated at Port Richmond Square. That was 14 years ago when I lived on Staten Island. I do not know if that line still operates today.
I believe that line is the 99S. There are also 2 lines, the 144 and the 122 that run from Staten Island to Exchange Place. I've been on that bus all of once.
-Hank
Who runs it then and how can I find out more about their routes?
I think community coach runs it.
99s is a Red & Tan Lines Route
99S doesn't go to Staten Island - ends at the southern tip of Bayonne.
Extend the HBLR to St. George.
Okay, next chance I have I'll go and extend it ;-)
If it's a potential problem for NJ then fix it sent NJT busses over the bridge, extend the trolley to SI. It's a Tri-State area! If anyone thinks that NY can exist without NJ or vice versa.......
Enough of my rant.
Arti
[If it's a potential problem for NJ then fix it sent NJT busses over the bridge, extend the trolley to SI. It's a Tri-State area! If
anyone thinks that NY can exist without NJ or vice versa.......]
New Jersey people might go for those ideas, but New Yorkers? Let's not forget that among New York's elite, the world effectively ends at the Hudson River. New Jersey might as well be North Dakota.
"Let's not forget that among New York's elite, the world effectively ends at the Hudson River. New Jersey might as well be North Dakota."
I doubt there are many, if any, of New York's elite living on Staten Island. :^)
And how many of those would want to go to Bayonne?
There are 2 people in the room and we would love more! http://metrocard.cjb.net.
Sorry I was 14 minutes late, but I'm there now. Come on everybody, I KNOW that you all have nothing better to do.
I'm surprised no one's noted this already, but Subtalk regular Paul Matus was quoted in an article in today's edition of USA Today. In the article, which discussed the increasing size of seats in theaters, sports areas and other public places (in reaction to the increasing size of _people's_ seats!), he noted how subway seating space increased from the system's early days until the introduction of the (too small) "bucket" seats.
I didn't know that. I guess I'll have to find a copy. Is that Monday's or Tuesday's?
It was in Mondays edition.
Peace,
Andee
Thanks, Andee.
I found it on the web at:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/ndssun08.htm.
Another 15 nanoseconds of fame.
In the article I note who isn't widening their seats--airlines. Sitting in an airline seat is torture. The airlines attitude seems to be: "we're fast, so it's worth the suffering."
A big opportunity for Amtrak on corridor runs.
In the article I note who isn't widening their seats--airlines. Sitting in an airline seat is torture. The airlines attitude seems to be: "we're fast, so it's worth the suffering."
You're not kidding! Between that and the legroom shortage back in coach, my annual trip from JFK to Las Vegas to see my grandsons is a killer. Of course, if I didn't have so much baggage around the waistline... at least they don't try and make me check it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In the article I note who isn't widening their seats--airlines. Sitting in an airline seat is torture. The airlines attitude seems to be: "we're fast, so it's worth the suffering."
Hardly. The attitude of the airlines is exactly the same as that of Microsoft and pre-breakup AT&T: 'see figure one.'
The real problem with the airlines is that the FAA (and Transport Canada here in the Great White North) are twiddling their thumbs while the air travel industry chooses to put profit before passenger safety. With air-steerage seat densities as high as they are, it's highly unlikely that rapid emergency evacuation is still possible given the limited number of emergency exits.
Considering that the airlines treat passengers like cattle, in terms of both seating, bookings, and the ever-decreasing on-board air circulation rates, it's really no wonder that air rage incidents are on the increase. IMO, arresting someone who punches out a flight attendent is exactly the same as arresting someone for being mugged.
CH.
A few years ago, while vacationing in Deep Creek Lake, Maryland I had the pleasure of riding the Western Maryland Railroad between Cumberland and Frostburg. When the train reached the end of the line the locomotive separated and drove on to a turntable where it was turned around and re-routed via an adjacent track to the other end of the train. Are there any such functioning turntables in the NYC metropolitan area or close to it. If so, where ?
Danbury railway museum has one.
I have no idea if its still functional but there is still a turntable past the Oyster Bay Station.
There's one at the former Conrail engine facility in Newark; it's easily seen from Route 1-9 southbound near exit 14 of the Turnpike.
-Hank
If that is the Turntable located at the Hagarstown engine facility its now out of service and has been for some time. CSX wants to knock it down, but a private group is trying to save it if then can raise the $50,000 in time.
No, it is not the Hagerstown engine facility. This turntable is located some 100 feet beyond the Frostburg RR station where the Western Maryland Railroad (a steam excursion train) terminates. It is in good working order.
There's a presumably still functioning turntable at the LIRR's Morris Park diesel shops. The only way to see it is to take one of the two daily trains between Jamaica and Long Island City that use the lower Montauk branch through Queens.
I believe the LIRR Jamacia yard (near Dunton Tower) has one still operating.
I thought that Greenport or Riverhead had one at one time. I'm no expert on the LIRR, so this is only guesswork.
Doug aka BMTman
04/11/2000
[I thought that Greenport or Riverhead had one at one time]
Greenport does have one that's not working, but the RR Museum of LI has their eye on restoration if #39 runs again.
Bill Newkirk
Here's a recent picture of the Greenport turntable.
Conrail has one at the Altoona shops and I think they are restoring the one in Port Jervis.
Steamtown USA has one that operates every day when they bring in the steam engines ... yes I saw them swing a steamer on it last July.
Mer t__:^)
LIRR had them at Morris Park yard (next to Atlantic Avenue), Oyster Bay, and Greenport. I believe the ones at Oyster Bay ad Greenport were air operated -- train crews had to hook up an air hose to the locomotive being turned. The one at Morris Park was definitely electric.
Not sure whether it was Danbury or Pittsfield, but the old New Haven line had one at one of those places. They were "armstrong" types -- in other words, stop the locomotive on the turntable, and the crew would have to push the thing around using raiload ties that were mounted at the ends, at angles. I forget which book shows it, but I definitely remember a photo of a New Haven FL-9 on such a turntable. Must have been a real task to do, and I'm sure the train crews would accept any help they could get from non-crew members.
And though it is LONG gone, the CNJ had one at Communipaw roundhouse, which was west of their Jersey City terminal.
Port Jervis, NY - the turntable was restored about three years ago, in time for C&O 614's run that year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The correct name for the railroad that runs from Cumberland to Frostburg is the Western Maryland Scenic Railway. It's a nice ride, and they're keeping a bit of the "Wild Mary" alive.
Where does LIRR get it's 3rd rail power from? Do those tall electric
transmission towers have anything to do with it?
I heard a while ago they go their 3rd rail power from a PT&T plant in Long Island City.
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that LIRR power comes from the upstate Power Authority, just like the subway's.
I think I heard LIRR gets it's power from NYPA (New York Power Authority) but I wonder by what distribution system. I have a feeling the electric transmission towers that are by many LIRR tracks (example from east of Sunnyside to Jamaica, Jamaica to Babylon) carry LIRR power.
Looking at old LIRR pictures of main line tracks in Queens, plus abandoned lines like the old LIRR Rockaway branch (have an old picture of Brooklyn Manor station)show these power lines are alot more numerous, with many lines resting on towers. Back then LIRR got it's 3rd rail current from the PT&T electric plant in Long Island City (wonder what's there now?)
There are also some electric towers by LIRR Sunnyside yards where the 7 train elevated structures passes over, though the wires are gone from the towers.
But if subways get their power from upstate, a ConEd outage won't effect it or does the subway get it's power through ConEd lines? When that blackout happened in Northern Manhattan last summer I heard it did effect the subway signals and 3rd rail power on some lines there.
Also LIPA outages have effected LIRR service as well. I guess they get
power from upstate but through local distribution systems.
I suspect that they probably "buy" thier power from one or two sources, kind of like you're able to now with the consumer choice programs, but it's distributed through the local grid, so if theres some kind of major disturbance, you'll have an outage, even though the plants that you're buying power from aren't affected.
If the MTA really wanted to save money, they'd invest in some pumped storage facilities upstate, so that they wouldn't have to pay the peak rates for power when they're at peak usage (rush hour). But let's not kid ourselves about how much cash the MTA has to spend on capital projects...
I recently heard on a LIRR commuters web site that the Montauk viaduct
in Jamaica is in bad shape. Does that carry trains from the Babylon branch? I think it is that elevated structure that Babylon trains
run on before merging with mainline tracks before Jamaica.
What exactly is the track layout of Jamaica? Is there anywhere that
has LIRR track layouts?
If you can secure a copy of the December, 1957 issue of Trains magazine, they had a track plan of Jamaica in that issue. It's been long out of print. I don't think the track arrangement has changed much since then, so it would be a good starting point.
Last evening, while cruising on my R/44 to Aquaduct/N.Conduit, we had just left Rockaway Blvd and gained the the embankment . After switching to the loacl tracks , a yellow blur caught my eye. As i quickly my head , slack jaw included, I was blessed with a view of a work train layed up on what I ASSUMED was a condemed track.
It had a yellowbird , about 4 or 5 flatcars loaded with pre-assembled ties and rails, another yellowbird and MOW diesel #87. Now my juices were flowing,adrenalin pumping, the fuzzy stupor from my trek/nap thru brooklyn was clearing. WHAT WAS THAT? Were was that shipment bound for? The Broad channel raceway? Are they gonna replace the rotting "express "tracks right here? That consist was taking a chance on those rotting ties.
There is now a mystery play out the many scenerio's in my mind.
Can anyone supply some clues?
avid
Maye it was delivering more track and ties for the test track between Broad Channel and the north bridge.
I thought of that, but wouldn't it have been just as good to lay the consist up at Broad Channel. It was parked oposite the Single Aquaduct Raceway platform.BTW I have seen posters declareing shuttle bus service , 10::am -3:00 pm , April 10 thru April 13? Rockaway blvd to Howard Beach. I'll take the train to H.B. and try to spot new work.
avid
Which will be finished first? The Manny-B or The Yankee Stadium subway station.
The Neverending Rehab
Andee
Don't know, but both will be finsished before 14th St./8th Ave.
The contractor at 14/8th is the same one that did WTC--CAB. I sure hope they dont get any more rehabs.
Are they the same numbskulls who couldn't even install the same color tile in the two Chambers St-WTC stations?
Wayne
They seem also to have not installed any tile signs on one platform and what seems to me to be too many signs at the other.
You noticed that too? Idiots they are! The "E" platform (Chambers-WTC) had the tile hand set, in 10 x 10 sheets but they failed to get the black tiles that say "Chambers" put in. Over at the "A" platform (Chambers-H&M) they opted for pre-fab panel tile. I saw these on the platform prior to their 1998 installation. They had a cut-out in each and every panel for the station name. Instead of filling in every other one with white tile (which they could have done), these dutiful souls proceeded to put "Chambers" into each and every cutout, then they hung them on the wall. It is the correct typeface lettering but it is out of character with the whole IND because the captions are too close together! Instead they should have used the leftover tiles over at Chambers-WTC. FOOEY!
And the two colors ARE different. WTC is bluish purple, H&M is more reddish purple.
Wayne
They are the same contractor: CAB Inc- WTC (E), Park Place (2/3), Chambers (A,C), 14/8th (A,C,E,L)
Relax, there are none yet at 14th St.So you may think your at Nostrand Ave .
Penn Station/ 34th St is a nice combo of old and new.
avid.
04/11/2000
The Newark City Subway was known as that for years until the route #7 was added to the front destination sign and timetables reflected this.
Does the HBLR lines (two branches and trunk) have an offical route number assigned to them? The timetables don't say that, just Hudson bergen Light Rail.
Will The Newark City Subway title remain? Or will it be called "Newark Light Rail"?
Bill Newkirk
Well, I don't know the answer to your question, Bill, but the Newark City Subway designation for Route 7 is actually the later designation - at one time several routes used the subway, and indeed their various exits via ramps to the streets are still visible. All of the routes had numbers, and operated "via subway" when they got toward downtown. The last survivor was route 7, and it gradually became known simply as the City Subway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is there a free crossover at Pavionia/Newport from a Journal Sq train to a WTC train?
My office is moving to Jersery City and I'll be coming down from 33 and have to get to Exchange pl.
Thanks
[Is there a free crossover at Pavionia/Newport from a Journal Sq train to a WTC train?]
Yes.
Both arrive on the same track.
Yeah, and boy does it get windy on those Path platforms! :)
I've not been on Path in the summer, but I'm under the general impression, with all that air moving around, that the stations are a bit cooler.
Anyone know?
Pavonia/Newport's got the worst winds, coming into the station from the south on the northbound track; it can be sweltering and hurricane-force winds at the same time. World Trade Center has some sort of air conditioning in the station area...
[Yeah, and boy does it get windy on those Path platforms! :)
I've not been on Path in the summer, but I'm under the general impression, with all that air moving around, that the stations are a bit cooler.
Anyone know?]
Those winds are apparently part of the original design--the tight clearances are designed to ventilate the tunnels. (Speaking of which, does anyone remember the "hold on to your hats" sign at the end of the GCT #7 station?)
Curiously enough, I have it on good authority (my Mother) that the IRT was the coolest place in town before they lengthened the stations.
Get off at Pavonia_Newport and change for the WTC-bound train. Look for GREEN lights on the front of the train, not yellow. Then go one stop to Exchange Place. Mind that "S" curve, though!
Wayne
For those not from the NY area, a bit of history. There is a particularly vicious miscreant who if preying on young mothers. His M.O. is to hold a gun on a young child while he robs the mother. Hes struck 4 ro 5 times in the last few weeks. One particular incident allegedly took place on the J train. The alleged victim has just come foward to tell her story in tearful detail. Do not get me wrong. I am sympathetic to the plight of this woman and her sisters in victimdom. However, this media event had a purpose. The young lady (and gee wiz, this comes as a suprize) has decided to sue the city and the NYCT for 'Gross Negligence.' Where are we? It seems like we've been transported to a corner of the twilight zone. Does this chill anyone besides me. Where does this bizzar chain of responsibility ever end? Does the city now bear the responsibility for every event that occurs within its borders? Are there no rules for lawyers regarding the filing of frivolous lawsuits? Or am I just out of touch?
This is one lawsuit that is likely to fail. Civil servants are under no obligation to do anything. Teachers can't be sued if kids end up illiterate. Cops can't be sued if you get mugged. And the TA can't be sued if you don't get to your meeting on time. That's true if it really is the fault of the city agency, and if it isn't. In short, public employees can't be sued (or fired) for doing nothing, only for doing something, which is one reason they tend to do nothing.
In this case, even if a plainclothes cop were in the car, watched the incident unfold, did nothing, then said "I'll take your report now Ma'am" after the mugger left the train, the City would not be held liable. Let alone if the police were elsewhere.
The TA and City should never have given a dime to those Utah tourists.
Thank you Larry but what about the lawyer who files such frivilous lawsuits? Also had those Utah tourists not been in NYC to see the US Open and David (tennis balls) Dinkins not been the mayor, they would not have received a dime.
I think you would be surprised (and disappointed) at the legal definition of frivolous. For a lawsuit to avoid being frivolous (because of a rule of law that bars recovery as opposed to a lack of factual basis for the allegations), all it takes is a good faith belief that the courts will change the law. It's not enough that the existing case law is against you to make your suit frivolous.
While it's been quite a while since studied torts, IIRC the general rule that Larry is relying on is a matter of case law, not statute. Consequently, common law being a constantly evolving body of decisions, courts are very reluctant to say that anyone knew for sure, in advance, that they couldn't possibly win.
Note to the Sarge: Does NYPD tell its people that they can sit and watch a serious crime in progress without intervening if they are in a position to do so?
[For those not from the NY area, a bit of history. There is a particularly vicious miscreant who if preying on young mothers. His
M.O. is to hold a gun on a young child while he robs the mother. Hes struck 4 ro 5 times in the last few weeks. One particular incident allegedly took place on the J train. The alleged victim has just come foward to tell her story in tearful detail. Do not get me wrong. I am sympathetic to the plight of this woman and her sisters in victimdom. However, this media event had a purpose. The young lady (and gee wiz, this comes as a suprize) has decided to sue the city and the NYCT for 'Gross Negligence.' Where are we? It seems like we've been transported to a corner of the twilight zone. Does this chill anyone besides me. Where does this bizzar chain of responsibility ever end? Does the city now bear the responsibility for every event that occurs within its borders? Are there no rules for lawyers regarding the filing of frivolous lawsuits? Or am I just out of touch?]
It's hard for me to say. As a general rule, and as I've stated here before, I have very little use for personal injury lawsuits of any kind. You are entirely correct in saying that we've gotten into a Twilight Zone sort of situation in too many cases.
BUT - if it can be shown that this robbery would not have occurred, or would have been less likely to have occurred, if there had been a PATH-style emergency notification button in the car, I might be inclined to change my opinion. I believe that the Transit Authority's failure to install these buttons is an act of *criminal* negligence. If it takes a few huge jury verdicts to get the buttons installed, well, so be it.
(Emergency notification button)
How do you push the button when you've got a gun to your head? And what would happen next? The only way it works is if another passenger could hit the button without fear of getting shot, and that word could be passed to a cop in the next station. That requires a whole set of instant communications. The T/O could keep the doors closed in the next station, but that might set off a hostage situation. And since the TA did something, it WOULD be sued.
Also it seems like it can take a while for transit police to respond. I was riding an SB Q from 57th during the evening rush, which called for police at about 42nd, and finally got some officers at DeKalb.
[(Emergency notification button)
How do you push the button when you've got a gun to your head? And what would happen next? The only way it works is if another passenger could hit the button without fear of getting shot, and that word could be passed to a cop in the next station. That requires a whole set of instant communications. The T/O could keep the doors closed in the next station, but that might set off a hostage situation. And since the TA did something, it WOULD be sued.]
Buttons aren't going to be useful in every dangerous situation. In fact, they might be useful only in a very few instances - but that still makes them essential.
You are correct in saying that the buttons won't help much if a crime actually is in progress. I instead see them being useful mainly when passengers see a suspicious-looking person or persons in the car. That could be a group of belligerent teenagers, a particularly aggressive beggar, or someone who simply doesn't look right. Having a train crew member come to the car to investigate (which IIRC is how PATH responds) often will be enough to defuse dangerous situations, which is to everyone's benefit. Sure, there will be a lot of overreaction - one person's aggressive beggar is another person's harmless skell - but remember the old adage about better safe than sorry. And let us not forget that the buttons could be quite helpful in cases of medical emergency.
Even if it would be another thing to maintain. A non-functioning button, would be much more likely to draw a lawsuit than installing and maintaining proper communications equipment.
Weren't some R42 cars assigned to this very same line equipped with experimental emergency "strips"? IIRC, they were removed because they were repeatedly pressed by morons who thought it was funny to fake an emergency situation.
One possible solution: cameras. Give the conductor a tv screen with the ability to see inside all subway cars from his cab. Might actually fight scratchitti as well.
Until someone spray paints over the camera lens. NYC has a very inventive calliber of vandals, so they would have to come up with some kind of self-cleaning cover in front of the camera to assure there would always be a view of each car.
Use pinhole cameras. Vandals would find it hard to even locate them.
So long as the monitors weren't visible from the motorman's or conductior's cab windows. Then they could figure out the angle of the image shown on the monitor and just spray that area of the wall/ceiling in general.
I'mnot saying security cameras are a bad idea, I'm just saying if they put them in, they should make contingency plans for the worst possible scenario or vandalism.
I'm surprised nobody has done that (spraypaint over) to the red light cameras around the city!!!
Today's sense of entitlement is jaw-dropping.
Any money this individual might win in a lawsuit would hurt the TA's future budgets. Like complaining about transit police, then giving them less money to work with.
If for some reason the TA could actually be found at fault, then the fairest thing would to be to sue not for money, but for an injunction to increase crime fighting system-wide
Now THAT would be frivolous. The level of police protection is a question that is to be decided in the exercise of sound judgment by those to whom the responsibility is entrusted, not by a court of equity.
methinks she should sue the makers of the
J train for "not being computerized in time"
so as to ship them back to Canada..
The "J" trains (R40Ms and R42s) were made right here in the USA; they are 1969 stock, made by St. Louis Car. Even their GOH's were done right here in New York State.
Wayne
One of the news stations made a comment that there were missing light bulbs at the station.... But still this woman was being dragged down the stairs. Didnt anybody see anyhting??????????
3TM
Unfortunately, there are still a lot of people who refuse to get involved. I don't ride in the last car of the train as a rule, unless it's occupied. I hope they catch this perp soon. He also struck at the Forest Hills LIRR station in broad daylight. Obviously this guy ha nothing to lose.
Wayne
Which station was this?
It was 121 Street on the J.
Does anyone have photos of modern operations of the MTA South Brooklyn Railway that can be posted to this site or is there a website where photos can be seen?
Bill Russell's website is one good location (the link escapes me but has 'PennyBridge' in it's title).
Regard recent photogrpahs: I'll check my collection and contact you directly if I find anything.
You might also like to know that South Brooklyn did some switching with New York & Atlantic Railway when NYCT received a shipment of R-142's over by Linden Shops around the holiday times last year. Unofortunately, I was unable to get to the location in time for a photo-op.
BTW, SBK was pressed into service this past weekend at the Coney Island Rodeo. The diesels were used to give the kiddies and their families train-rides around the storage yard on 'the loop' (track #2).
Doug aka BMTman
Did you put your hat on backwards, stick a lolly in you mouth and jump on that car ?
Seriously, could you get close enough to see what was going on ?
Mr t__:^)
Funny you should mention that Thurston. I got to ride aboard diesel unit #N2 on the 'deck' as we rounded the yard. Nice ride, and I was able to take some shots of the equipment. You'll see 'em Saturday.
Doug aka BMTman
Now you're talking friend! Anything peculiar out there?
-Stef
I heard that yearts ago there was a transfer between tyhe L train and the# 2 ( now the 3 and 4) at Junius and Livonia. why was it closed down? wouldn't it have benifirtted riders in canarsie and east new york and brownsville.
Any transfer must have been from the now-closed south mezzanine at Junius. The wye for the Linden shops is directly above the mezzanine, and it would have had to have been substantially reconfigured to allow access to and from mezzanine from the SB track. I'm guessing from the length of platform south of the mezanine on the NB track that the platforms must have been extended north when they did this to give them room for 10 cars on the SB platform.
The platform lengthing makes sense, especially since it puts the north mezzanine in the middle of the platform, instead of at the ends, like the other similar stations on the line (Pennsylvania, Saratoga and Van Siclen). It is strange though, that Junius is the only station on the line that was designed for two mezzanines and had both constructed. Pennsylvania, Saratoga and Van Siclen are still waiting...
I did find some architectural drawings for the south mezzanine at Junius, and it shows stairs marked "to LIRR bridge." However, as shown, they are outside the fare control (as they should have been at the time of construction, still seperate systems).
Rather than building a passageway, wouldn't it be easier to implement a "virtual" or "walking" transfer via MetroCard?
I see two possible ways of doing this:
1. Program the turnstiles at both Livonia and Junius to allow a second (or third) swipe within the 2-hour limit;
2. Install a cheap "exit swipe" at both stations, to encode a transfer valid for 15 or 18 minutes. The swipe mechanism could resemble a farebox or a MetroCard Reader.
Either of these could be done for the many stations system-wide which are nearby-but-not-connected [e.g. Queens Plaza and Queensboro Plaza; Lorimer or Hewes (J) and Broadway (G); Jay Street and Lawrence Street; Hunts Point Av and Simpson Street; Grand St (B,D,Q) and Bowery; Prince Street (N,R) and Bway-Lafayette].
Well the Jay-Lawrence might be a reality.........
3TM
I've suggested #2 for many stations around the system. Install a large bank of swipers inside the fare-paid zone somewhere close to the exit. As long as the swiped card had been used to enter the system within the past two hours, it is encoded to permit entry within 18 minutes to the other station of the pair.
With the new homes being built by Penn Av, the second exit would come in handy as a part time or "Metrocard entry" exit..........
3TM
I think that Mezzanine should be constructed for an transfer. I always notice the concrete structure at the Manhattan bound end of VS, Penn, and Saratoga. I asked a question about these exits a year on ST and got replies that these were former exits.........
3TM
I think that mezzanine should be constructed for an transfer. I always notice the concrete structure at the Manhattan bound end of VS, Penn, and Saratoga. I asked a question about these exits a year on ST and got replies that these were former exits.........
3TM
I'm sure that there never were exits at the north set of through-spans at those stations, unless they were directly to the street. The Livonia line seems odd, in that it has space for extra mezzanines at the three stations, and also has provisions for the middle track. Beyond New Lots Avenue, there is a structure built to accomodate an extension along New Lots Ave. Again, I'm sure that the middle track, and the extra mezzanines never existed.
I remember in the 1960s, there was a pedestrain overpass in this area. We used to go to Fortunoss which was on Livonia Ave-- all 7 stores
It's still there, but outside the Fare control. Dave, Mark and I went there last July 21 and walked across it. The closed mezzanine is still there but the stairs to the street are gone.
The "cheap exit swipe" suggestion seems like the best one so far for instituting a free transfer at that station. Of course, you would also have to restore that unused mezzanine's stairs, both to the street and to the platform.
Wayne
This location never had a free transfer, only a connecting overpass with a high exit turnstyle. The T. A. was considering making a free transfer there in the late 1970's but it desided not to because a lot crime was occurring on that overpass, especially at night. They figured not that many people whould use it.
That is how I remember this location. I always(in the 1960s) wondered why there was no connection.
I live in tha area, the overpass is there. Fortunnoff was at Livonia near Penn Ave..... Right now the 3 el structure is getting rehab and hopefully get a paint job...... The L structure looks a whole lot better......
3TM
Sorry, it won't get a paint job. Only the new steel is getting painted.
I dont think there ever a transfer. I remember a family member telling me that he had to walk across the bridge from the 2 to get to the L.........
3TM
I have been living out of NYC for 15 years so I don't always find out about subway changes.I depend on the ERA-NY Division bulletin for most of my information.
I remember reading a few years ago that N trains would be going via tunnel to Manhattan. I didn't think that this would still be in effect now. Why aren't they using the bridge tracks? Is this a permanent change? I know that the side to Sixth Avenue was repaired back in the eighties but this took only a few years.
The FAQ section on this website has a whole section on the Manhattan Bridge and the ongoing situation with it.
It was another long afternoon shift at the Apex Rehapoluster factory and I was looking forward to joining Doug aka BMTman and heypaul at Kmart and hanging out in the ladies thongware department. Heypaul didn't show up, so we stayed an extra hour. When we were leaving we remembered heypaul again.We better check on him.
We hurried oner to the Redhook section of Brooklyn, down to the Bush Terminal, but no Heypaul, he likes to rollerblade on the cobblestone around the old track lines. So we deceided to check out his place a few short blocks away.
When we got there the lites of his seven story walk was dark, we checked the doorbells. we found Heypaul penciled in next to a broken bell. After loseing two out of three times choosing , I had to clime the stairs and knock on the door. No answer. I tried the door, it was locked. When I finally got back down stairs and woke BMTman up, I told him "nobody was home!" Now he looked worried!
I asked him if he knew if Heypaul stashed a spare key anywere. BMTman said "naw, He didn,t trust hiding places!
"Wait a minute " he said , "I got an Idea" and he runs across the street and jumps into the phone booth. I watch him , and he's very animated, pounding his hand on the booth wall, the he calms down , talks somemore then hangup.
He jogges back and after he catches his breath, swears of cigarettes again, he starts to tell me what just happened.
"I just called a friend of mine, batteryman" 'Who?" I say "Who's batteryman?"
"You'll see , he'll be here real soon, he's working the 'N' train.
Pretty soon I spot this light bouncing up and down and getting closer. Now I start to hear "Battawee undollwa undollwa". Gosh almighty IT IS BATTERMAN!
BMTman runs down the block to meet him , they embrace like long lost cousins. Then they both scurry back to the stoop were I'm sitting and waiting.
BMTman introduces me to "batteryman" and I notice he looks familiar.
The real giveaway is the YOYO green light. I always wanted one , but was afraid to buy it.
Next thing I know BMTman is leading us up the stairs and twenty minutes later we're standing in front of Heypauls door. WE knock again, still no answer. Batteryman pushes us aside, say "Battawee undollwa undollwa" Next thing the door in open and we're in. He and BMTman embrace again like long lost cousins , and batteryman disappears down the Stairs.
To Be Continued!
avid
Now , with the door open, BMTman looks over his shoulder at me and says" I'm goin' in, cover me!" With that he disappears into the apartment and closes the door behind him.
I hear all kinds of noise, breaking glass , things hitting the floor, heavey thumping, grunting and then it gets deathly quite! Now I"m getting chills and wondering , should I go for help or just go and keep my mouth shut?
The door opens , and BMTman, all bruised , dirty and a bit frayed beacons me inside . The place is a disaster area.
"What happened?" I say.
BMTman glances at the far wall. There is a low cage with a nine foot Boa curled up.
Now I wish I did run. BMTman say "Its ok now , but where are the pitbulls? There were two the last time I was here. Then we both looked at the lumpy Boa. Well I guess that answers that.
Methodically BMTman ransacked the dump , then decided Heypaul was not here.
I found a can of "BRASSO" cleaner on the kitchen counter and showed it to BMTman. He took it from me , went to the bed and tore a piece of heypauls army blanket off. Then made his way through the rubble to the MOTORMANS CAB. He began to polish the brass door latch. It had been a real grungy tarnished latch, but there was no stopping BMTman!
Then it happened, the low vibration, the wobbeling cab, the lights dimming twice, the ear splitting noise, the ozone smelling brilliant flash, Boooooooooooooooom!!!!!
When we came to, I guess about the same time, we found ourselves at Hunters Point Station, surronded by the rest of the SUBTALKERS getting ready for a Fan Trip tpo Montauk Point on string of Budd RDC's with a Vista Dome car and a yellow MOW R/15 bringing up the read end.
TO BE CONTINUED. avid
Good night.
Makes great bathroom reading!
Now I just have to find a way to get all my computer equipment into the john!
;-)
Yes I had them tack my old friend RD335 on the end to make a caboose.
Wayne
On top of 335 is I see a short stainless steel chimney with a light blue smoke issuing from it. I cac smell ONIONS, grease and MEAT!
S.O.B. this thing has a Bar-B-Q in it. I look around for BMTman , and he has moved over to MrSlantR40 . They are doing the secret handshake.
Soon everyone is getting on board. I never saw such a collection of palmcorders ,and laptops. These guys mean business. As we all try to squeeze into yellowbird I get a good view of the grill. Burgers, big and small, sausage, hot and sweet, peppers and onions, veggies grilling, chicken, a hugh clam steamer boiling away. I yell " what is this , a beach party?" Somebody yells out "No, it's a search party. We're all looking for Heypaul!"
Pretty soon everyone is stuffing their faces and swilling beer. I particularly liked the potato salad. I was on my third plate when I noticed Pigs of Royal Island shying away from the grill, I wonder....
The train lurched, we rolled forward, another lurch and we were picking up speed. About half of the group headed threw the the storm door ,into the next car and headed to the front car. I always wondered how many people could fit behind a railfan window and I guess I'll never know, they kept on shoven and pushin, two people fell to the floor in a wrestling match, kicking ans scratching but no biting, it was a fair fight and drew its share of onlookers.
I looked around a noticed BMTman and MrSlantR40 , a cooler of beer and two babes heading to the Vistadome. So I decided to tag along, but at a descrete distance. Funny thing though, BMTman was beginning to take on a strong resemblance of Tom Selick, and both babes were hanging on him. So we clear the Sunnyside yard and zip past Woodside and its a great view up here . The rest of the seats fill up . When I get back to looking outside I notice we're on the ROCKAWAY branch. How can this be? It caught all of us by suprise! A cheer goes up and some fool starts singing "For he's a jolly good fellow" about Pataki. Give me a break. We begin to really cruise , we're on Welded rail on cement ties, but only on track has been restored. I lean over and ask Pigs . "How come only one track restored?" He Said "Thats all the Subtalker could afford". That made sense.
We went express all the way , thru Woodhave, Ozone Park ,Aquaduct and Howard Beach. Once across the north channel bridge the rails began to sing. I leand back in my chair and gripped the arm rests. This was getting scarey. We took the wye and headed for Far Rocaway still running express all the way and picking up speed all the time.
I was afraid I was going to soil my trouses again, but BMTman looked at me and said "Relax, it gets better" As we approached Far Rock ,we did not slow. We flew thru the station right on to the LIRR tracks. Pigs said " only one track, and its temporary. We raced on like this to the next suprise . The new wye at Valley Stream. Pis only nodded his head and gulpped his sixth beer . What follow was a long burp. Then all of these sodden subtalkers started burping. We flew along the montauk branch with the sound of burps and camcorders.
We kind of lost track of time, I think the beer and food was having a calming effect on every one.Pretty soon , I noticed that faraway look on a few faces. WE had past Patchogue , and the real rural area was upon us.
Then it happened, I could hear BMTman in my head, Telepathy! He said "Relax and watch this" And everyone did as he told them.
He was having an out of body experience and we were all watching thru his eyes.
He was getting up on the roof of the train. As he turned his head to the left, we could all see the Sunrise Hghway running next to the tracks.Then he takes off and goes up, and as he looks left and right I can see a pair of feathered wings. He's a frigging bird! A Hawk!
Higher he flies , and he drifts over the highway while he keeps pace with the train. This is fantastic!
He drifts over a convertible with two sharp babes in it. He drops down to get a better look, not bad. Now we can hear them talking. Their talking about going to the Hamptons for the weekend. Its the first time for the passenger. Then the driver say oH darn! "What happened?" say the other.
"I just hit a rabbit" says the driver.
"Oh no, darn it "says the passenger. "You just ruined my weekend,stop the car and backup!"
" Its just a friggin' rabbit". "Go Back, see if its hurt"
So the driver pulls over , stops, and backsup. They get out of the car and walk over to the lifless rabbit. The driver kicks it with her foot. Nothing.
The passenger starts ranting and raving how this is ruining her weekend.
The drive tells her to shutup as she opens the trunk of the car. She pulls out an overnight bag and dumps its contents into the trunk.
"Here it is" she says and picks up a can of spray.
"Whats that?" say the passenger.
"Shut up" say the driver,. "Just watch" She emptied the whole can of spray on the dead rabbit. After about 2 minutes the hinde leg begins to shake. Then the ribcage begins to rise and fall, the rabbit is breathing again! In another minute the rabbit staggers to his feet and takes a few feeble hops. HE goes about fifty feet on to the grass, stops ,turns back and waves one front leg.He goes another fifty feet. Again he stops and waves. He repeats this a few more times before disappearing into the woods.
The passenger says "what is this S__T, as she grabs the empty can.
She turns it overand as shes reading it , BMTman lets us all read it thru his out-of-body-Hawk-eyes .
HAIR SPRAY
RESTORES LIFE TO DEAD HARE
WITH AN OCCASIONAL WAVE!
The babes jumped in the car and sped off to Hampton Bays.
When they made the OFF RAMP
THERE WAS HEYPAUL hitchikeing! They picked him up and sped off.
We lost them in the crowds.
Well, the joke deserves a rim shot.
Actually there were TWO coolers, one full of beer and the other full of Diet Pepsi.
Somebody slipped some turkey sausages in there too - FOOEY! (I don't care much for them). But the potato salad was superb.
wayne :o>
That Potato salad was from heypauls grandmothers nextdoor neighbor.For the recipe , flip over a container of Blue Ridge Potato Salad at you nearby Supermarket.
If you plan to make it , you better hurry and pick up a 5 lb. bag of inert material, the price is going up again!
avid
I asked my uncle this very same question, and he said, He likes the B division. He really likes the R. As a matter of fact, Everytime I wear my R Train straphanger shirt he goes "Go R". Me, when I become a Motorman, I will be going back and forth, because I don't think there Is a Subway line I don't like. Plus for that old vote for ur favorite subway line, The answer for me is the A on the B division, and the 2 on the A division. I like long lines like those
I'd want a line outside -- more vision. After all, what's the T/O's worst nightmare? Someone jumping or failling in front. Outside you have a better chance to see it, at least during the day.
Which line is outside the longest? I'd have to say the J/Z. An old El, my guess is it holds the record for most time outside, both in miles and in percent.
What about the 7? That is mostly outdoors, too. But, I just figured out the J/Z has a larger percentage of stations outdoors. Only 6 stations are in the subway on the 7 (29%) compared to 8 on the J/Z (34%).
I myself was always an IRT fan since I grew up next to the #4 jerome ave line I would stay with IRT division
In reading "Underground Woman" by Marian Swerdlof
I'd have to say-- aside from the obvious answer
in my screen name-- the 'deuce (2)for the redbirds
and the...
( 1 ) South Ferry ( 9 )
Actually, my worst nightmare is hitting a red signal, and that is a lot easier to do outside with the sun hitting the lenses, making it hard to decide if that next signal is red, or only yellow. People falling ir jumping in front of my train is something over which I have NO control. Yes, it would probably give me nightmares if I did hit someone, but it wouldn't be my fault. Two Saturdays ago, I spent the whole day thinking it was finally going to be the day whenI hit someone. I was running the Dyre shuttle wrong rail from E. 180 to Dyre, blowing the whistle as I approached every station and watching the morons lean out further, staring toward Dyre looking for the train. All I could do was continue blowing and braking and hope they would get out of the way. Timers on the structure, however, just sort of sit there and get blasted out by the sun. You can't tell what color they are, and if you don't know them well, you just sort of hope that they changed, because if you hit them, you're doing time in the street.
(And lest any of you think I'm callous about hitting people, keep in mind that in 1988, my father WAS a 12-9 - at an outdoor station on straight track on a clear day - so I'm familiar with the feeling of what happens. In fact, some of my family wonder how I can actually operate with that incident in my past)
As for the originall question, if it weren't for the travel time, I would gladly stay in the IRT working AM jobs on the 1/9. However, Iwill probably end up working AMs out of Stillwell, Brighton Beach or 95th St
[Which line is outside the longest? I'd have to say the J/Z. An old El, my guess is it holds the record for most time outside, both in miles and in percent.]
I think it's the A.
With all due respect, I have to disagree. The A stays underground all the way through Manhattan and Brooklyn, and doesn't emerge until it crosses the Queens County line just past Grant Ave. On a percentage basis, the Far Rockaway route remains outdoors more so than the Lefferts Blvd. version, but both routes spend the majority of their journeys underground.
I think you all know which division I'd like to stay with the most.-)
Wouldn't people rather be underground? so they don't have to deal with stuff like adverse weather or excessive sunlight harming vision? Also, has anyone noticed that going through portals can put you to sleep sometimes?
Last week I listened to an interview on NPR with a flight attendant. They talked about how everyday they were above the clouds in the sunshine no matter what is was down here. What is it like to spend a full shift in the subway and not see what it is like outside?
There were days when I worked as a stage hand where I would report for work before sun up and not leave the theatre until after dark. When I went outside after work I would wonder what the day had been like.
What did you do for lunch?
A cafateria in the building. It did have windows, sometimes we would go out for lunch you are right. Usually the dock was outside also but we had the trucks empty early but I fear we are getting off toppic.
How many subway lines, if any, are entirely undergound? What line has the most outside running?
The "C", "E" and "R" are wholly underground. I don't have the longest-running numbers, but the #7, the "J" and the "A" (Rockaway) are up there. The "H" (Rockaway "S") is entirely out of doors.
wayne
Thats why the "E" is the Pullman of choice during coooooooold weather!
Those homeless you see on the "A" to Far Rock, just tourist!
avid
I thought the R went out of doors for its Bay Ridge Terminal, and a couple of other stations on the Bay Ridge side.
The R is totally underground at Yellow Hook.
I like the lettered lines. As far as operating, I would prefer the "A" (R38s) or the "Q" (Slants) for their unfettered express runs. The "E" wouldn't be bad either.
A Division: the #5 or the #7. #2's good too.
Wayne
I would operator the Flushing line #7 with the redbirds or the West End "B" with the Slants. Both lines have good express runs also.
I prefer the wider B division lines. The N or Q with slant R40 or R44
R46 trains. The F aint bad either.
The 7 train has a good express run through Queens, but those Steinway tubes are just too slow for under-river tubes. You can get good speed in the 60th street tube and 53rd street tube as well.
Are you ready for a most unusual answer?
If I were to become a Motorman, the division I would stay with the most would be Maintenance Of Way (MOW).
My reason for this? First, you get to work throughout the system on ALL divisions under different conditions, making things interesting and less mundane. Second, you have all the same duties/responsibilities as a revenue T/O with the pleasant benefit that you don't have to come in contact as much with the often tempermental and fickle public.
But in leiu of that, I'd say the Brighton Line would have to be my choice route as it has some of the most interesting ROW on the B Division. I'm not a big fan of A Division lines, but I'd say the Flushing Line (#7) is one I'd consider.
Doug aka BMTman
[If I were to become a Motorman, the division I would stay with the most would be Maintenance Of Way (MOW).
My reason for this? First, you get to work throughout the system on ALL divisions under different conditions, making things interesting and less mundane. Second, you have all the same duties/responsibilities as a revenue T/O with the pleasant benefit
that you don't have to come in contact as much with the often tempermental and fickle public.]
Interesting points, but the downside is that you'd probably do most of your work during the overnight hours.
Peter, I'm aware of that, but I've always been more of a "night owl" anyhow.
Doug aka BMTman
I would go with the B especially working out of Coney Island, Most Likely I would like the Q, Express and No Weekends. Div A I would go with the 7
A question aimed mostly at motormen who have come out of schoolcar
within the past decade: Do you still teach you to avoid "fanning"
the brake valve {repeatedly applying and release the brakes}?
Do they teach you to stop smoothly with a small final application>
Motor Instructors/TSS: Do you give field re-instruction to motormen
when you observe fanning, stopping with 70 pounds or other herky-jerky
operation>
When I came out in 1988, we were barely given a practical final exam for the NYCTA. I remember running an 8 car C train from 135 tower to tremont middle with some old R10s but car markers weren't a critical key to passing. Just accelerating and braking as close to the marker was the critical point so with the SMEE type trains, fanning was frowned on but passible until we hit the road and got some time to practice. Nowadays it is a lot different but not anything close to the AMTRACK or NJT finals, where you must spend two weeks or less in the cab before taking the finals for EACH LINE. Not one day per line in the TA. Old school with Amtrak involved a coffee cup part full of water with indication lines inside or something like that. I really don't think the TA cares about smooth operation, although with few cars running the ME26 schedule, it is understandable.
what is me26?
It's the brake valve controlling automatic (trainline) braking on diesel locomotives and some M.U. cars like NJT Arrow III's.
We teach our operators to avoid fanning at Seashore.
However if you want to see examples of fanning, just hop down to New Orleans and ride their cars in service. They treat their controllers as if there are two positions - ON and OFF... and fan the brakes to no end. It hurts to watch!
They've been doing that for years. I went dowin to the Big Easy in the early 1970's, and the charter rates were so low a buddy and I chartered a car for 10 hours! The regular motorman (they were still 2 man then) ran just like Todd mentioned. We also had a NOPSI instructor, who let us run when he found we were Instructors at BSM! (We did bring the BSM "funny suits" with us, and wore them when we chartered.) Both NOPSI men were surprised when we both notched the car up properly, and made smooth stops without fanning. And we led regular cars all the way from Canal to Carondelet. Talk about 7th Heaven!
Wonder how they handle the new cars, which have modified all electric PCC control.
Ever watch LIRR engineers as they pull into the Port Washington terminal?
P1, coast, P1, coast, brake, P1, brake, P1. In about 2 seconds. They'll do this to get within .5 inches of the bumper.
Ever wonder why the M-1's are so sluggish? I bet they got a lot of dead cars floating around...
There is so much slop in those controls that it may just
average out! I clearly recall back in the glory days of
the R-46, which has a similar package, a motorman who made
station stops by rapidly jerking the handle between COAST
and FULL SERVICE. Contrary to common sense, this resulted in
the smoothest stops I've ever witnessed. I think he managed
to find the rhythm that outsmarted the time delays and slop
in the controls and thus finessed the jerk rate.
On the contrary, and the reason for this thread, I've been subjected
recently to a rash of horrible SMEE stopping practices. Of
course, with the comp shoes and castrated J valves, stopping with
a full service brake isn't that bad on the final. However,
fanning the brake valve during high-speed dynamic braking causes
all sorts of bucking, jerking and lashing.
They taught us at Branford not to fan (this year's op class).
Thought a question on the written was about when to fan the brakes when your haveing wheel slip like in the rain.
Sure but what happens when you run a train through the loop with out checking to see if the curve has been greased?
They don't so much teach us how to brake, as give suggestions. And every last one of them suggests something different. Some TSSes have told me to grab about 20# - 30# of air about 2 -3 car lenghts into the station and hold it, making final adjustments close to the end of the station, while others frown upon that and want me to power in to at least the CR indication board, then grab 60# - 70# and stop at the marker. Personally, I prefer the former - it seems to result in a smoother stop. Of course, every station is different and ther are some where I don't start braking til long after the CR board.
I just realized that Heypaul hasn't posted in over a week. He also didn't replay to the e-mail I sent him. Where is he? Is he angry? Is he banned? Is he on another board? Did he have a relapse and bounce back into a rubber room? The last time he went away I found him hiding in the Nth Ward and had to drag him back. So everyone please check your websites carefully for Heypaul. He may be hiding behind the message board, under the guset book or even in a corner of the chat room.
I know it can't be because of his time traveling because he could come back to the instant he left and therefore not miss anything. However if he became trapped in time somehow that could present a little problem. Does anyone else have a time traveling locomotive cab that could be used in a rescue attempt?
One last thing. If anybody is going somewhere, where they will not have internet access PLEASE post something to that effect so the rest of us can A) Avoid asking you questions, B) not expect whatever you personally add to the board to be there anymore and C) if what you add to the borad is curtial to its survival (eg. humor) the other Subtalkers can try and make up for its absence.
Several days ago Paul posted a message basically saying that he would no longer be posting here due to all the arguments.
Aw crap! THIS SUCKS, THIS IS TOTAL BS! How can he do this to us! He WAS the comic relief. If this was a protest it didn't do anything. The MB is still 70% arguements, just with no humor. As is evidenced by my origional question, when a post turns into a fight I don't read it any more. I had no clue about heypaul leaving because I don't care about killfiles, I just use the Mr. LA Transit test. If he starts posting, I stop reading because is usually just a fight. HEYPAUL!! JUST IGNORE THEM, YOU DON'T HAVE TO READ EVERY POST!!! PLEASE COME HOME!!! I WANT TO LAUGH AGAIN!!! AT LEAST REPLY TO THE E_MAIL I SEND YOU!!! AT LEAST COME TO THE CHATS, 8PM SATURDAYS, METROCARD.CJB.NET!!! IF PEOPLE START FIGHTING PGITTY CAN KICK AND BAN!!
Ok, I feel a little better now. Let us all continue in the production of SUBTALK III: The search for Heypaul
Let us all continue in the production of SUBTALK III: The search for Heypaul.
Does this mean we'll find him on the forbidden Genesis locomotive? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yes, the fabled dual mode overhead catenary/diesel engine Genesis III holds the key to Heypaul's return. Only the brave crew of SubTalk can navigate the layers bureaucracy, the red tape and graft to see the funding through. Only the brave crew of SubTalk can defeat the NIMBY's and BANANA's to see commuter rail service to underground stations in the hart of downtown. To boldly go where no railfans have gone before.
SUBTALK III: The search for Heypaul Comming soon to a message thread near you!
PS: I plan to write this.
PPS: Who did Heypaul pass his "mind" to? I'm guessing Avid reader.
Stop your shouting, he's still posting on the Yahoo club UsTalk.
Then we need to let him know about the killfile, that will solve his arguement problem. Just list' em and there never seen again. We need him to keep that all-important levity here.
Here is his last post: Hey Paul
It was kind of a disappointing way to see heypaul go out. Outside of the outrageousness, he'd always tried to be something of a voice of reason and went out of his way in some cases to try and bring some different SubCliques together.
His last message was something of a rant, and perhaps a bit harsh. I think the tone of it prevented many of the "please don't go" responses that others have gotten when they sign off for good.
There was probably a lot of truth in what he said as he left, as well as a bit of excess. The lack of reaction to what he said was, well, interesting.
Chuck
The lack of reaction is because most of the regular SubTalkers (myself included) had stoped reading the Killfile thread. People were just insulting eachother and I didn't want to waste cashe space on it. If Heypaul had written a Goodbye thread you would have seen much more reaction.
most folks who use " killfile" are usually a buch of chicken....sh__!... and got ...s.o.b. ... in them !
they HIDE behind thier computers probably batter thier wives beat and abuse thier family & children and beat
the dog as well !!............. they have been around long before such a thing as subtalk !!
as for heypaul & myself and some others we have gone on to other forums where is some sense and reason and common sense !
children on this subtalk then will be left to killfile and quarel with each other !! cant handle the word railfan-window !!
I think he drifted into deep space and got sucked into a blackhole.
In all seriousness, I believe he is spending time away from SubTalk so he can devote his spare time to writing his life-story for producer/director Steven Speilberg who is planning an epic motion-picture on the life and times of Heypaul.
Doug aka BMTman
Heypaul said he wasn't going to post anymore when killfile was implemented. I'm sure he had his reasons and I wish him well if he doesn't return. He did provide comic relief and will be missed. If nothing else, I will always be grateful to him for the CC and LL tapes. They bring those R-1/9s back to life.
Is there anyone out here in webland that would know how L train service will be implemented as the el at Van Sinderen & Atlantic Avs comes down? Just curious....
-Stef
Hey, Stef, you make it sound like it's gonna be happenning any day now.
I'd guess that any demolition work is still a year or more away. However, I'd guess that work would commence first on removing the old Fulton street part of the structure on the eastern-most side (over Sneider Ave.). That removal shouldn't effect service since the track on that section had been removed many moons ago. After that, any demolition besides that MAY cause service distruptions.
Whatever's done will certainly be of interest to us SubTalkers.
Doug aka BMTman
Oh, it'll happen sooner or later. It's a matter of what time this disruption will occur and how L line passengers will be affected. In reference to the construcion, this project was mentioned in Capital Programs on the MTA site. Contract took effect in March and will last for 36 months. As for how the work is to begin, I expect the Snediker Av portion of the el to remain intact for now. It should be the last thing to come down. Actually, the first thing that should happen is to connect the Manhattan Bound track at Sutter with a Fulton St K Track to give a straight route into the Western Most Portion of the Atlantic Av Station followed by the necessary track changes. This will prove to be interesting. A piece of history will be lost in the process: The old tower on the K Tracks will be nothing but a mere memory.
I haven't been out at that station in a while. Perhaps I'll take a trip over there sometime.....
-Stef
Stef, let me know when you plan on visiting Atlantic Avenue station. We could turn it into a SubTalk tour.
BTW, I agree with you regarding the strategy for the Atlantic Avenue Station work: to leave service uninterrupted -- which I'd guess MTA would try to do there -- the northbound track out of Sutter would first have to be connected to one of the K tracks (old Fulton route) over by Atlantic. The ultimate goal is to align the tracks as straight as possible as that would aide in CBTC plans for the Canarsie line.
Then they would start lobbing off the eastern sections of the structure without disrupting the service into Manhattan.
Doug aka BMTman
I'll let you know when I visit there. I may want to head down into Canarsie while I'm in the vicinity.
Pertaining to their plans, the TA needs to minimize the disruptions that may be generated by the reconfiguration of the tracks. So the whole kit and caboodle comes down, and history as we know it is forever changed.
I'd expect that the booth located downstairs will also be moved under the reconfigured tracks. All in all, the flyover to the J remains unchanged, while access to ENY Yard is modifed to branch out of the new configuration.
What else could they possibly do out there. It sounds like this would be a good time to run a Museum train out there as a big send off for the structure that will soon come down.
-Stef
If you do, I'll join you. Perhaps we can do a few stops on the portion north of B'way Junction as well.
Atlantic Avenue has a long crossunder/mezzanine, which has been refurbished within the last 10-15 years - NOT totally rehabbed. There are new windows and lights in the fare control area. They could retain the passageway from fare control to the westernmost platform.
Wayne
We'll see. I'm particularly interested in the Canarsie Portion, up to and including ENY Yard. If anyone wants to go on an adventure, perhaps we can walk off to the Canarsie Pier!!!! I don't get out there too often so I was thinking about it.
Just a thought....
-Stef
P.S. I'd probably would prefer to do this in the confines of a Museum Train (given the opportunity). On 4/26/98, I was given the opportunity to ride in a train of D-Types and ride the Broadway El and travel by the flyover to Canarsie. Does anyone remember the Nostalgia Train Excursion? It was FABULOUS. Hehe.
On 4/26/98, I was given the opportunity to ride in a train of D-Types and ride the Broadway El and travel by the flyover to Canarsie. Does anyone remember the Nostalgia Train Excursion? It was FABULOUS. Hehe.
Sure do! Express on the Broadway El to ENY. A ride through the unused part of the Chrystie St connection (former KK route). What a treat! Have it on tape.
(Too bad it rained)
--Mark
(Too bad it rained)
Yeah, but that didn't stop you from hogging the railfan window :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually on that ride, I didn't have the railfan window. I had to open up the door (that usually holds an advertisement) to expose the OTHER unseen railfan window to the left of the storm door.
Then I was happy :)
--Mark
OK, so my memory is a bit faulty! I wasn't able to get close due to the mob trying to get up there. I settled for a seat instead, across from a couple with three of the most annoying brats around. One of the kids was somewhat interested but the other two (and the mother) would have rather been somewhere, ANYWHERE, else, and they weren't shy about letting everyone know it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If anyone wants to go on an adventure, perhaps we can walk off to the Canarsie Pier!!!!
Well ... only if the old ROW of the trolley line to the pier is traced (near East 95th St, I think ....)
--Mark
Of course! Wouldn't want to have it any other way, right Doug?
-Stef
I'll suggest that we do that, weather & time permitting.
Doug aka BMTman
The Canarsie Pier may not be visible, since the Belt Pkwy is sitting over where it was. However, you may be able to see bits of the ROW here and there. It's between E95 and E96 street. There's even a few trolley poles off Glenwood & E96. The one in front of the furniture store is a hoot.
Wayne
I would definitely love to join you guys, there is a lot of interesting facts on the whole Canarsie el........
3TM
We'll let you know (either Stef or me) when we'll do that trip, 3TM.
Doug aka BMTman
Sure. I guess we can turn this into an excursion of SubTalkers. Hmmmm. We'll just have to see. SubBus and Wayne are interested, anyone else?
-Stef
Stef, I'm sure we could drag Thurston and Lou from Brooklyn into this excursion (the other partners in the BERA 3/4 ton crew). :-)
And Bob Anderson of LIRRhistory.com might be another interested party.
If anything, we'll talk more about this on the way up to Branford.
Doug aka BMTman
Keep me informed.
-Stef
When the Q operarte on Queens Blvd, will the cars come from Jamaica Yard or CI yard? I assume CI because Jamaica still have to maintain the G trains.............
3Train#1941Mike
I would have to agree - when the "N" ran there in the 1970s, the cars were from CI, if I remember correctly
Wayne
Was the "N" fleet at that time (1970s) part R46, and thus came from Jamaica, or did CI actually maintain some R46 cars?
Nick
There definitely were R-46s on the N during the late 70s, as I remember riding on them.
The R46 ran on the N until the switch to Astoria in 5/87. In 9/87 and 10/87, the R46 made an appearance on the Astoria N as well. I believe all N cars were assigned to the CI yard, as the N ran to Queens only part time.
AND there were also R16s as well; the only time I ever saw gold signs in the side destination signs of those cars. R46 took over from R16 sometime in 1977 IIRC.
Wayne
There are photos of R-16s on the N in the car section to substantiate that; however, I never saw them there. I remember riding on N trains of R-27/30s in the late 60s, in addition to trains of R-32s.
When N line replaced EE service in 1976, because R46s belonged to Jamaica Yard, naturally some R46s were running on N line until the terminal was switched to Ditmars Boulevard and R68 cars came.
Chaohwa
Let's not worry about this until it happens...which it may not. The 63rd Street Connector service plan is STILL NOT FINISHED, and from what I hear (from the people who ARE doing the plan) the Q is N-O-T involved.
David
Ok if u s-a-y so!!!!!!! :):):)
3TM
Having just returned from a weekend trip to the lovely city of Boston, where I plan on moving this summer, I'd like to thank Todd Glickman for meeting up with me and giving me the grand tour of the catacombs of the MIT campus. :-) I look forward to exploring more of the Boston T, as well as getting up to the Seashore museum.
General observations:
Like any proper railfan, I did a fair amount of riding on the T, making it all the way to the end of the E and C Green Lines, the Forest Hills terminal on the Orange Line and the Ashmont terminal of the Red Line as well as the entire Mattapan trolley line.
More than anything else, I was impressed by the MBTA's wide variety of physical infrastructure and rolling stock, ranging all the way from sparkling new stations on the Red and Orange Lines that resemble the likes of Washington Metro, all the way to the ancient Green Line subway station at Boylston.
I was also impressed by the cleanliness of most of the stations, as well as the appealing architectural design of the newer stations. Hats off to the MBTA for hiring good architects and empowering them to create works of lasting quality. (Take heed, CTA.)
My interest as a railfan tends to lean more towards heavy-rail subways, but I still found the Green Line LRV's very interesting. Something about them seems to lend a lot of character to the neighborhoods they pass through.
My favorite railcars were the new 01800's on the Red Line. They had a very nice, clean appearance and a relatively quiet and smooth ride. I didn't care much for the Orange and Blue Line trains; they seemed rather rundown, noisy, and very dated looking. Not quite as bad as NYC's Bondo fleet of redbirds, but getting there fast.
One question:
I've noticed that with the exception of the Green Line LRV's, Boston's subways seem to always run with no headlights, just the red tail lights on at both ends of the train. More than once I was a bit startled to see a train coming towards me when it looked as if it should have been travelling away from me. Is there any reason for this? The trains are obviously equipped with headlights, and safety and common sense would seem to dictate that they be used.
Room with a railfan view
Although I was obstensibly in town just to do some general exploring, I did manage to take a look at a studio apartment on Commonwealth Avenue in Allston. The apartment faces the street, with the B branch of the Green Line passing within direct view of the front windows.
I'm faxing my application to the management company tomorrow, and if they're crazy enough to accept it, I'll soon be able to watch and listen the Green Line LRV's pass in front of my apartment. Wish me luck in getting this place.
While I'll certainly miss my adopted hometown of Chicago, I'm also looking forward to getting settled in Boston and being able to explore more of that beautiful city. My anxiety of the move has been greatly reduced now that I've had a chance to get a bit of the city's grit under my fingernails and gain a better idea of what awaits me there.
That's all for now...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Back in the 60s I found downtown Boston a real nice place to live & work. Best of luck & hope to hook up with you in July for our "Field Trip" to Boston & Kennebunkport.
Mr t__:^)
David,
I'm glad you enjoyed your visit to Boston! Todd's tour of M.I.T. is great, isn't it? :) I'm sorry I didn't know you were coming, my college is at the end of the C line, we could have met up in cleveland circle.
You made some good observations about the T; it certainly is a clean system, compared to some parts of the NYC subway.By the time you move over the summer, look for the type 8 low-floor cars on the D line. Good luck on getting the apartment on Comm Ave...you will have quite a view! You are right on how the trolleys add character to the brookline area...it's like living in Mr. Rogers neighborhood.
-Nick
The rules say:
Headlights ON dusk to dawn or when clear vision is impaired
Dim when approaching stations or other trains based on circumstances
Red deck lamps/markers ON at all times when in tunnels, and outside sunset to sunrise. At least one lamp (of 4) must be operational at each end of the train.
Hope this answers your question.
Conrad, thanks for posting the rule re: headlights on MBTA rapid transit trains. Do you happen to know the genesis of the "turn 'em off when entering stations"? I would think this is less safe than leaving them on. No one who is associated with the T has been able to give a good reason as far as I know. Any insight?
Yes, David, great having you visit. I look forward to having you back here this summmer.
I certainly can't respond on behalf of the authority but my personal belief is that there is no codified answer to your question.
Usually (as you know) streetcar headlights are wired with the bonnet lamp using an either/or switch. So the headlight was "on" unless the motorman wanted interior glare in his face.
On the rapid transit I think the practice just reflects prevailing views of safety and personal responsibility at the time the cars were built. The oldest RT cars here in Boston had headlights but later orders (ie, the C/D 0600 vs 0700 series) had them removed. They were probably just considered a nuisance by the crews and an expense by management. After all, you don't have to steer a train and until 1971 we didn't even have a branch line here in Boston. Back and forth, all day, every day, you probably memorize every tie and joint fairly quickly.
By way of comparison, Toronto's subway cars didn't have headlights until relatively recently, and I don't think Montreal has them at all (just dim running lights). So the bottom line is just what the operators feel comfortable with. A fenced ROW with walk lights and ambient light is probably enough to provide an acceptable level of comfort.
If you had to move a railroad car between the Hoboken Passenger Terminal of NJ Transit and Penn Station in Manhattan entirely by rail, what would be your shortest routing and how many miles would you travel ?
You would use the Waterfront Connection towards Newark Penn, and then reverse.
To avoid tying up an active track in a station, one could run it to Newark Broad st (center track), then back through the Midtown Direct.
For those in the know...
Any truth to the rumor that a redbird with the
number plate [3875] running on the Flushing line
actually makes r62 "ding dong" sounds before closing
the doors????
#3875 is an R32 number. I believe these are Coney Island R32s, although they may be at Jamaica-Yard or Pitkin now. Are you sure that isn't, say #9375?
No IRT car has worn #3875 since the Gibbs Hi-V's of long, long ago.
Wayne
Thanks, Wayne!!
I didn't believe it to begin with.
I don't doubt you saw this car. I'll keep an eye and ear out for cars ending in "57" and "75" next time I'm on the #7.
It was a Worlds Fair Redbird, correct?
Wayne
Lowest car #s on IRTs I can remember were 4000-5000 Lo V series R12/14 also had upper 5000 numbers before the R62s
Hi-V cars started with #3350 (like today's R32s) and ran up to #4024.
Another group went from #4223 to #4514. Lo-V's filled the gap between #4025-#4222.
Composites (part wood, steel frame) were #2000-2159 and #3000-3339.
There were prototype and special cars from #3340 to #3349.
Most (if not all) of these cars ran before my day.
Wayne
Again, I was told that #3875 was seen this week
on the IRT 7 Line (a redbird without the circular
fans in the ceiling) and that it had the ding dong
gong sound... i know for fact them redbirds dont gong
for nothing... this is why i posted.. to find truth.
04/13/2000
[Again, I was told that #3875 was seen this week
on the IRT 7 Line (a redbird without the circular
fans in the ceiling) and that it had the ding dong
gong sound... i know for fact them redbirds dont gong
for nothing... this is why i posted.. to find truth.]
Sorry (1) South Ferry (9), #3875 is an R-32. You received erroneous imformation on the car number. There is no car on the #7 with #3875, and that's the truth.
Bill Newkirk
It was probably seen on the N, across the platform from the 7 at Queensboro Plaza.
It is a member of the Coney Island R32s, according to my information, so seeing it on the "N" is an accurate call.
Ding-dong? I'll keep an ear out for it Saturday during my 4th Avenue BMT travels. If it's in the train, I will investigate it.
Wayne
Here's an idea:
Maybe there was a train of R32 cars (with 3875 in the consist) on the N line at one level, and a train of R68 cars on the other level. The observer would be on a #7 train, across the platform from the R32's. If the doors on the 2 N trains closed simultaneously, it might be possible to have the R32 cars "sound like" they have doorbells on them, when they actually don't.
What numbers did the Flivers have?
I'm not sure what the Flivvers were - Lo-V or Hi-V. Sorry bout that.
Wayne
The Flivers were the last of the High Vs, and numbered 4037-4514.
The R-12s started with #5703 and ended at 5802; 100 cars in all.
Timetables for the new Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Line were available today,April 11 at Hoboken Terminal and Penn Station-Newark. They are effective April 17,2000. They have the same format as the NJT Regional Rail Schedules and are colored turquise with a drawing of an LRV on the top.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I rode the Newark City Subway today,April 11. Much work remains to be done on the new station at Franklin Avenue. The new platform is laid but the canopy is not yet complete. One track extends beyond the loop onto the former right of way and has energized wire. PCC 16 showed up sporting two pantographs,(as opposed to a pantograph and a trolley pole). She pulled onto the new track and off loaded about forty garbage bags. I guess that she has replaced the former PSCT trolley in work service. The two pans are interesting. Does NJT intend to keep her for work service after the LRV come in?
At about 230PM there were eight cars in service,2-5-9-11-13-15-19 and 22.
Larry,RedbirdR33
For those interested, you will never see car 25 in service again. After a year of modifications, they still can't find out why she jerks and can't stay in a steady pace. (They even replaced the motors, MG set and every inch of wiring in the car to find the same results)
Car 25 has been officially retired.
Sounds like an open bucking coil in the ABR, excessively worn
7A finger, or perhaps open commutator/resistor segments.
Gerry O'Regan, whadya think?
This sounds like a master controller not making up it mind problem.
Check for chafed/shorted wires in or around there or in the conduits. Or arcing across contacts that fool one part into desequencing when it shouldn't.
I can't believe they couldn't find the problem after a whole year.
Better yet, give car 25 to me and let me play with it for a while. hehehehe.
Jeff and Jan,
You both work with trolleys at museums and know what might be wrong with it. These people whose job it is to maintain these cars have spent over a year and sevral thousand dollars on it and still can't fix the damn thing!!!
Well, we can speculate. When the problem finally gets
fixed by whoever winds up getting that car (be it a museum or
another transit operation), then we'll know for sure. Unlike
the TA, the one thing city subway can't do is replace the control
group with an off-the-shelf GE replacement kit :)
On a previous trip, I saw one of the R-38 cars that has a wrong font number plate. That car number was #4119, and had bold Helvetica-type font on the number plate. At that time, I saw this operating on the "A" Line.
Side Note: The other wrong font number plate I have seen so far is the famous "mis-numbered" R32 #3348. I have heard of R68 #2755 being another such car. Any other cars which fall under this category?
Nick
4119 has a number plate similar to 4118.
2755 and 3348 have number plates with typefaces now seen on the Redbirds.
3348 also has number plates with the Switzerland Thin typeface, as the following picture shows...
While I'm on the topic of fonts, know any good places to get fonts used in the subway?
The R32 and R38 fleets have some odd number plates. 3348 actually has an engraved plastic plate!
-Hank
As my picture shows. It appears to be covering something. Anyone know what it is?
Here's the picture again.
Also, where did the other 3348 signs (the ones with the "Redbird" style font) come from?
R 10s?
Probably covering the number 3659, which was its original number. He/she is the oddest of the odd, no doubt.
Wayne
I've made a font called Subway Line Route Markers. I think the font's name is self-explanitory. You can pick it up at my Download Center. Go!
I think #4008 or #4009 has an odd plaque on one side as well. I know the decals inside of #4008 and #4009 are different.
#2755 had a mishap with a flat car and someone removed the plaque prior to its being shipped back for repair; it has plastic stick-on numbers in the older-style font on one side.
Wayne
after the new giants stadium opened the transit(s) nightmare still echoes on as more giants fans ( along with a non winning team )
still faces transit difficulties. cal train boasts of having fixed thier nightmare and muni made some inprovements etc....
but soon like the r-142s the ""newness"" will quicky wear off and fade away into the darkness !!
finally attendance will drop and yes the mayor of san francisco on a live interview ..
willie brown admitted live on kgo 810s ron owens program that giants stadium was paid for by the taxpayers ...
at least 40% !!!!.....the afternoon games are the worst with evening downtown traffic and giants fans transit nightmares!........
Well, that's what you get for stealing one of OUR teams.
Let me guess...A Sally post? And I assume he's rattling on about PACBELL park, not Giants Stadium. Is he continuing to insist that it was paid for by taxpayers? Vists here are som much more pleasant when I don't have to see even a hint of his posts. :)
-Hank
well mr SALLY.... mayor willie brown admited this !!! He is the MAYOR of san francisco not hank !!!
I think he would be the expert on GIANTS STADIUM ( aka pac bell park ) and the honorable willie brown.....
mayor of san francisco said this live on kgo radio am 810 ronn owens program live in the studio ??
also the transit nightmares where discussed !!! maybe this aint plesant hank but the truth hurts !!! ( mr Sally-post !!)...
40% by taxpayers? This is the first time I heard that. My impression is that Pacific Bell Park is the first Major League ballpark be financed by private funds. I check out the website of San Francisco Giants. Below is the quote from the website about financing.
The first privately-financed Major League ballpark to be built in 30 years at a cost of $319 million. The financing plan included $134 million from naming rights, other sponsorships, pouring rights, concession rights and the selling of charter seats; a $170 million bank loan; and $15 million in tax increment financing from the City's Redevelopment Agency.
If you consider $15 million came from taxpayers' money, it is less than 5% of the total cost. You have to applaud the Giants organization of doing things. They are willing to construct a new stadium mostly by private funds. You look at the example of Oriole Park at Camden Yards, it was totally paid by Maryland taxpayers.
Of course, when a new ballpark is opened, there will be a major traffic problem. There will be some time to adjust. In terms of downtown revival, like Oriole Park at Camden Yards in Baltimore, Pac Bell Park will be a big plus for downtown San Francisco.
Chaohwa
i heard willie brown the san francisco mayor say this !! and the callers on kgo newstalk 810 called in and asked him !!
all of these sports agencies claim private only funding like the atlanta olympics etc..... that was supposed to be private funding !
later on in time the truth comes out like the transit nighmare disasters after GIANTS stadium lets out thier fans !
when i was in atlanta after the braves games the trains stopped running even after the game ended !!
fans trapped inside marta rail stations for five to six hours until the 5:30 am first run trains in the morning !!
it is a shame how much some of you are fooled into( swindlled ) that taxpayers do not pay for these new sports
stadiums all across the country !! ( and the atlanta-los angeles olympics too ).........taxpayers do pay thru the nose !
i believe it is also called CORPORATE WELFARE...... !! just ask st louis !! and ask baltimore houstion tampa bay !! cleveland san francisco san diego seattle chicago ....dosent make any differece basketball football baseball !!
BUT THIS DID NOT GET OVER IN LOS ANGELES !! ( we have other problems transit & police etc...)..!!
when you read this post prove these sports stadiums are 100% priviate - funded !!......give me a break !!
Oriole Park was not built by Maryland taxpayers. Both parks were financed by proceeds from the Maryland Lottery. Although some may consider a state lottery to be another form of taxation, that's a matter of opinion. However there was a great deal of taxpayer money in the various infrastructure to support the parks.
(Oriole Park was not built by Maryland taxpayers. Both parks were financed by proceeds from the Maryland Lottery).
Money is fungible. If Maryland was going to have a lottery, it could have used the money to cut taxes or fund services. It doesn't matter whether the source is general revenues or specific revenues. The money was neither paid by the fans nor the owners. It came from the community.
Yeah, but I'm looking at in this way:
The money was contributed voluntarily. MD residents knew the money from the lottery was going to be used to build the stadiums, and they contuinued to contribute. With taxes, there's no voluntary involved.
-Hank
after rerading all of the threads about GIANTS stadium and where the money came from you guys must really
believe in the tooth fary & santa claus !!
And the lotteries for the various ballparks was specifically authorized by the Maryland General Assembly and all lottery material for the ballparks is marked "Procceds for the Benifit of the Maryland Stadium Authority". As a non-participant in the lottery, I have not and will not buy a lottery ticket. Whenever the jackpot goes over a million, ticket sales go wild. The higher the jackpot, the wilder the sales. It has been noted that one has a higher chance statisticly of being struck by lighting than winning a lottery with a single ticket purchase.
Of course, if the Maryland Lottery ever has a series "Proceeds for the benefit of the Maryland Mass Transit Administration", I just might break down and buy a ticket. (Fat Chance.)
all of these sports stadiums were built by taxpayer dollars !! especially st. louis .........and the list goes on and on !!
all or part ............the myth of private funding building, including ,GIANTS STADIUM ......... even mayor willie brown....
admitted the truth that taxpayers paid kickbacks !!
Therefore, if the stadium was fully-funded by the state lottery, and you did not buy a ticket, then you did not help pay for it. But, if someone lived in DC, VA, PA, or DE, and the jackpot went nice and high, they started to draw out-of-state persons to the lottery, thus people who don't live in the state paid for it as well.
-Hank
You got it. I don't buy lottery. My father-in-law has been buying tickets since we had a lottery and since I've known him (27 years, now) he's won something at least 5 times - a rotten rate of return, since he's amassed a collection of losers big enough to paper a room.
Our Lotto and Big Game (competition for Powerball) tickets don't go to the stadiums - only those series that are noted for the Authority.
Like I said - If they make one for the benefit of the MTA I just might break down and buy as ticket.
My wife was beside herself with joy when the Dodgers ganged up on the Giants and swept the opening three game series at that new and beautiful ballpark. All of this while the Mets were bumming around and Valentine was unable to keep his damn mouth shut and Henderson was playing mad at the world. The Mets did win two of three from the Pirates but most of the guys aren't hitting a lick and my better half is imploring me to go back to the Dodgers. Fat chance of that but I was pleased for her. If people want to pay the freight for these new ballparks, then they will continue to be built, but the one in San Francisco was built my private funds so there should be no gripping from the peanut gallery on that. Now the Giants have to do their own bidding and give the citizens a winner. If their start is of any indication, another fat chance of that.
the mayor of san francisco admitted that giants stadium was not taxpayer free !!
a lot of under the table shady deals were done ( like these other new ballparks and domes etc ).....
but you guys out there believe the hype !! GIANTS STADIUM was not all a private money matter !!
the atlanta olympics and the los angeles olympics pushed that same private finance jive on us too !!
all of these sports stadums have public taxpayer financing !! just like in st. louis !! ..................
I was repeatedly told that I should disregard Sally because he's got some kind of mental disorder. So I just implemented the killfile on him a while back, and I haven't had a bad experience here since. But it's easy to spot threads he started, since there's always a lot of anger. Now, I just laugh to myself and say "This is a Sally post s/he's responding to! Wonder what kind of crap he's come up with now?"
Oh, yeah; from experience, I can tell you that using multiple sources of factual evidence to disprove his statements will be met with repeated 'I told you so' and 'Railfan Window' posts.
-Hank
Dont forget the other team.............the dodgers.............??...................!!
and when hey came to los angeles chevez ravine was destroyed !....
thats how dodger stadium was built by wiping out a whole community ! for a team that came from brooklyn !
I remember as a child seeing railroad employees loading blocks of ice into special boxes located on the underside of the owl-faced MUs. I saw this several times when my mom took me to Port Washington. Does anyone know why they did this since the old MUs had no A/Cs installed?
The blocks of ice were carried in those compartments so the ice could be tossed into the on-board water dispensers in the old LIRR cars when the train reached the ends of the line. Conductors would just put the ice into the dispenser (most people referred to them as a cooler, but they were just a tank with a spigot), and the ice would melt, providing customrs with somewhat cool water.
Heaven only knows if those water dispenser tanks ever got cleaned, though.
The other night I was watching Oueensborough President Claire Schulman say on a public access channel that she wanted to have the Elmhurst station on the Port Washington branch reopen. I found that rather suprising and I wondered if she has any local support from residents in the area. Are there any plans from the LIRR to reopen it?
The LIRR really doesn't care about Queens.
The Port Washington Line should be turned into a rapid transit route (perhaps via the 63rd St. tunnel) with frequent service.
If the Elmhurst stop were restored, a transfer connection could be provided to the Elmhurst Ave. G,R stop nearby.
Well, the station, aside from some of the supports, is all gone. And what would be done for the rest of the line. A lot of people go to Great Neck and beyond.
04/12/2000
The ex-LIRR really shouldn't be restored. It was closed down for a good reason, lack of ridership? Perhaps a local transit station duplicating the service with much greater headways than the LI.
Restoring the station will cost a couple of million and must be ADA compliant to boot. I don't think that the LIRR doesn't care, I think they are considering the cost effectiveness of reopening a station that won't have the ridership to support it.
Would the TA reopen Worth St on the (6) or 91st St. on the (1/9) even though they are close to their nearest stations?
Bill Newkirk
I could see reopening Worth Street, extending the platform northward towards Canal Street. Gap-fillers would be needed, however, as that station has a sharp curve.
Wayne
What is the relay proceedure for C trains terminating and reversing at Euclid Ave?
Committee for Better Transit, publisher of the Regional Transit Advocate, has copies left of the Winter 2000 issue.
It includes articles on the MTA 5-year plan, the airtrain legal challenge, clean buses, Union County light rail, and other news.
Should you want a copy, send us your snail-mail address either via e-mail to dobrow@alpha.fdu.edu or via the postal service to Box 3106, Long Island City NY 11103.
CBT has been involved in transit issues since 1962.
Check out the schedules for the N31/32 and N33. You will need the Adobe Acrobat Reader to view these files)
On each, there is a list of MetroCard transfer connections. Since when does the F go to Far Rockaway? I have two hypotheses for this error:
1. Wishful thinking on the part of Long Island Bus
2. Confusion between these three routes and the Hillside Avenue routes (N1-2-3-6-22-22a-24-26)
JTLYK: This is was also posted on BusTalk.
I have a different hypotheses for this error:
The "map" was created a very long time ago & never updated. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
Mr t__:^)
In this case, it is "broke."
[In this case, it is "broke."]
Well, that's a matter of opinion ... some customers say it's broke, but has anyone in the TA come to that conclusion ? The back office in the TA that would FIX it is a small group at 130 Livingston Place, and at LI Bus (both sides have to FIX it) I think there is only one person.
A while ago I was able to FIX a problem between the N4 and Q25/Q65, actually it was an add, there was a lot of red tape.
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed by this writer are his own & don't necessarly reflect those of his employeer, nycDOT or MTA.
Mr t__:^)
it's been about a week since my last post... i must
say i have really missed you people...
i'm a great liar... i should have been a
politician.... i really missed
the scrolling text... i can't do this on ustalk at
yahoo
i'm very touched by the people who said that they
missed me... i didn't expect to be missed
this is all going exactly as i planned... the only
thing unexpected was discovering that avid reader
has a stranger mind than i do... i want to end the
rumor that he took possession of my mind...
i think i owe some people an apology for the strong
words that i spoke in my last post... i am not very
good at apologizing, so i will borrow some thoughts
of ralph kramden, when he was recording an apology
to alice for yelling at her mother
i'm sorry for the blowing up the other day and
calling you people mean... i realize you don't mean
to be mean...
it's just your nature... when you call salaam an
idiot, i shouldn't have gotten angry... i should
have expected that of you... you can't help
yourself... you're never going to change...you're just
gonna go on the same old way
so i am happy to be back... and i will try to be
much more positive in the future
don't hold your breath waiting for me to be
positive... i can't wait to post something i have
been cooking up all week about the r-142's
seriously... thanks for the concern and nice things
you've said
i mean that
Thanks for returning, Paul.
Things had been quite dull and slow at the boards during your absence.
I even thought a few of the guys here were going to kill themselves or become committed Wards of the State. It got to be THAT BAD around here.
See ya at UsTalk.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm really glad to hear that you're back, but couldn't you have tied your return in with the time traveling motorman's cab or forbiden Genesis locomotive?
Welcome back!! We all missed you. Bring back the spirit of levity.
Hello, Mister Levity :)
YOU DA HEYPAUL!!
And you've picked up some HTML editing as well!!
Welcome back HeyPaul <----I claim all rights to this TV series title.
Time to cue up the Welcome Back Kotter theme song.-)
Good to have you back. We missed you.
Welcome back, old friend!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
HUH?
UHU!
04/12/2000
WHAT?
Bill Newkirk
What the...?
How in the...?
Son of a.....
yea!! i cant wait to hear what you have to say about those..............................( 142s )................!!!!
Eye didn't know that you were gone, so that must mean that I didn't miss you .... well maybe a little bit ?
Seriously, my cup of java and your humor (and others here) get me started in the AM, in that order ;-) Welcome back.
Mr t
WELCOME BACK!!!
Peace,
Andee
According to the Boston Globe, federal officials are now accusing Massachusettes of deceiving them on the cost over-runs for the project, now expecting to cost $14 billion. In a way it's a heist that we all pay for to fatten the contractors of the Bay State. But its so out of control now it's threatening to really hurt Mass. as well.
A sobering situation, given that the procedural hassles and greed are, if anything, worse in NYC. Once people get their fists into a Second Avenue Subway, it could easily spiral out of control. A tunnel for the Gowanus? Forgetaboutit. And whatever we do, we shouldn't hire Parsons and Bechtel. The alleged biggest and best are presiding over a financial disaster in Boston.
Like I said in an earlier post, hopefully, if the Second Ave. project can be started in the near future, the disaster in Boston will raise the oversight level on any work done in New York to the point it will force the contractors, construction companies, unions and others to limit their graft or be removed from the project.
Uusually it takes a disaster like the "Big Dig" to get any sort of reform at all implemented. Then things work well for a while, until people forget about the original problem and the system goes back to its previous corrupt ways.
[Like I said in an earlier post, hopefully, if the Second Ave. project can be started in the near future, the disaster in Boston will raise the oversight level on any work done in New York to the point it will force the contractors, construction companies, unions and others to limit their graft or be removed from the project.]
I hope so. But that $4.8 price tag on the LIRR project and the $1 billion not to build the Second Avenue Subway have left me with a pit in my stomach. It's totally inconceivable to me that they could get away with anything so outrageous.
Like I said in an earlier post, hopefully, if the Second Ave. project can be started in the near future, the disaster in Boston will raise the oversight level on any work done in New York to the point it will force the contractors, construction companies, unions and others to limit their graft or be removed from the project.
Whatever makes you think that 'more overseers' won't merely become 'more people to corrupt?' Unending audits and close supervision are just as much a gravy train for the auditors and supervisors as unending construction projects are a gravy train for the construction industry.
It is impossible to defeat an ingrained system of kickbacks and corruption. It must simply be accepted as the cost of public works projects.
CH.
Not.
There have been major Big Dig developments in the past 24 hours.
The Federal government audit was released, and the governor has fired the project manager. A new manager has been appointed, who has a record of being very tough. The Massachusetts House & Senate are working on a revised funding plan which will fill the gap with "no new taxes (sic)."
This is the largest public works project in American history. You have to see it to believe it. Yes, it's incredibly expensive, but it's an engineering marvel. I trust that the SubTalk field trip this summer will have plenty of opportunities to see it. I shudder to think what Boston would be like 20 years from now had this all not been done.
(Back on topic): The shame is that the North-South Rail Link, which will connect Boston's North and South Station, is still unfunded and unscheduled. The only good news is that the Central Artery work is being done so as to not preclude its being built; i.e. utilities, relocated subway structures, etc. are not in the way. As I pointed out in a related thread a few months ago, it will be a "race" to see which is completed first: the full NYC 2nd Ave. subway, or the Boston North-South Rail Link.
[The shame is that the North-South Rail Link, which will connect Boston's North and South Station, is still unfunded and unscheduled.]
Todd, would that be comparable to a Grand Central-Penn Station link, here in NYC?
Yes and no.
Yes, that it would connect the two major terminals.
No, because in NYC you have through AMTRAK service via Penn Station. In Boston (once AMTRAK service begins to Portland, ME), the AMTRAK service is split by the missing link. You must take a taxi or two subways to get from one to the other.
Who uses North Station now?
I think just the MBTA commuter trains use North Station.
Amtrak trains from points north - Portland, Maine and possibly other places, I'm not sure - also use the station. Amtrak would love to have the stations connected so they could run through service. If I'm not mistaken, Boston is now the only Amtrak city where you may have to change stations using some other form of transporation to connect from one Amtrak train to another.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jersey Devil is correct. North Station only has MBTA Commuter Rail service at this point. The AMTRAK service to Portland, ME is planned, but has not started yet; the tracks in New Hampshire and Maine are currently being upgraded -- the latest rumor is this coming fall for start of service.
Two of the 10 tracks at North Station are currently out-of-service due to Big Dig construction. I'll have pictures and a story prepared and ready for Dave to post when he returns.
Thanks, Todd. I guess from all the posts talking about how nice through service from Portland would be if the connection existed I assumed that the Portland-Boston service was already running.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In the unlikely event that Amtrak and ACELA survive, I wouldn't be surprised if Maine were to take an interestin the north-south link. Through service would benefit points north more than Boston itself.
"Through service would benefit points north more than Boston itself."
Yes, the benefit to through Amtrak and MBTA travelers is the main reason for such a link. But keeping all the people who would otherwise clog the MBTA subway (rapid transit & light rail) lines connecting between North and South Stations from doing so would benefit rapid/light rail commuters as well.
(I shudder to think what Boston would be like 20 years from now had this all not been done).
I trust that the people of Massachusettes will be enthusiastic about paying federal taxes for a comparable expenditure in Metro NY. Hmmm, metro New York is about four times the size of Metro Boston. That would be $56 billion then, with 70 percent federal funding?
There is the point. There is no way that the people of Boston would have paid for it themselves, and no way they will be willing to pay that much for others. The Big Dig was dug at other people's expense.
[I trust that the people of Massachusettes will be enthusiastic about paying federal taxes for a comparable expenditure in Metro NY. Hmmm, metro New York is about four times the size of Metro Boston. That would be $56 billion then, with 70 percent federal funding?
There is the point. There is no way that the people of Boston would have paid for it themselves, and no way they will be willing to pay that much for others. The Big Dig was dug at other people's expense.]
The *real* point is that New York very easily can build the full Second Avenue subway, or the LIRR/GCT connection, or just about anything else, _without_ needing one red cent in federal funds. All it has to do is reduce per-capita Medicaid spending to the national average, even adjusted for higher local costs, and there'll be plenty of money for any transit or public-works project you can imagine.
Or, you can raise taxes 3%.
The 2nd Avenue subway will be our 'big dig'. We can out-cost overrun and out-corrupt anybody in America. The Boston Big Dig is really a jobs program for Bostonians, given to them by Senator Kennedy. The 2nd Avenue subway will be our endless jobs program. Which is why I think it will never be built despite the pronouncements of Sheldon Silver. They will all study it to death, and then decide that it really is too expensive after all.
(The Boston Big Dig is really a jobs program for Bostonians)
It is a job program of working-class Bostonians who earn a lot more than other working class Bostonians.
(The 2nd Avenue subway will be our endless jobs program).
It already is, but for consultants instead of construction unions.
(We can out-cost overrun and out-corrupt anybody in America).
Especially given the fact that we don't even have to get something in return for paying too much. Heck, even the Tweed Courthouse was actually built.
[Especially given the fact that we don't even have to get something in return for paying too much. Heck, even the Tweed Courthouse was actually built.]
That's not true--they're going to transfer the original drawings to Autocad.
[Especially given the fact that we don't even have to get something in return for paying too much. Heck, even the Tweed Courthouse was actually built.]
That's not true--they're going to transfer the original drawings to Autocad. Hey, I know a guy who does that for $25 an hour. The way I see it, they won't have to hire anyone else, because he'll be free to work the the rest of his life before they actually build anything.
Then what is that building on Chambers Street across from the Surrogate's Court? The one that they use for a film or TV set.
In Chicago, they've opened a new line recently: the orange line.
A lot of this was built at grade, but it still was a Big Project. One part of it (that benefitted me a lot!) was a new section of tunnel for the state street tunnel that connected it to the Dan Ryan tracks...which made it a lot quicker for me to get downtown. Anyways, this tunnel (and maybe other parts of the orange line project was built by uncle sam - not by cta or chicago. I've always assumed this was done because the federal government thought (probably correctly) that they could do it better, faster, and cheaper than local entities.
I wonder if this could ever happen in NYC? It would take a deal of some sort, that is for sure. But could it improve things?
Yikes, you want Uncle Sam to build the Second Ave. subway? A recipe for disatser, IMHO.
Besides, with the way NYC is hated by most people in other parts of this country, no funding could ever be approved by the House. Chicago is another story. Those lovable losers with their Cubbies need a new subway line? Sure, why not. NYC? Screw em.
This is the largest public works project in American history. You have to see it to believe it. Yes, it's incredibly expensive, but it's an engineering marvel. I trust that the SubTalk field trip this summer will have plenty of opportunities to see it. I shudder to think what Boston would be like 20 years from now had this all not been done.
I agree. I did some poking and prodding around the northern end of the Big Dig project (between North Station and Quincy Market) this past weekend, and the sheer scale of the work being performed in just those few blocks is staggering. And that's only a small fraction of the overall Big Dig project.
(A summary of the Big Dig project. Part of the Big Dig website at www.bigdig.com.)
But it will be worth every penny when it's done, IMO. This is not a pork-barrel project; this is an attempt to heal the wounds inflicted on Boston by the previous generation of transportation planners.
Keep in mind that New York would likely be undergoing their own "Big Dig" today if Robert Moses had been sucessful in plowing an elevated expressway through Greenwich Village. Boston's Big Dig is the price we must now pay for our shortsightedness in not heeding the likes of Jane Jacobs when we had the chance.
And it's not just a Boston problem; the federal government had an active role in planning and financing the wholesale destruction of neighborhoods in almost every city for the sake of the interstate highway system. It's only right that they contribute their share in repairing the damage.
Cincinnati is also undergoing their own minature-scale Big Dig right now in an attempt to bury the expressway that separates their downtown from the riverfront. Anybody notice a pattern here? We sold our cities' souls to the automobile, and we're just now beginning to realize that our payoff check has bounced.
-- David
Chicago, IL
We really don't have that problem around Philly because instead of building freeways everywhere, they built them in little incomplete bits that took over 20 years to connect to each other. The bigest project in the last decade was the overhaul of Vine St. and the Ben Franklin Br./I-95 interchange. You used to have to endure street running and traffic lights and now you just zip right through. Well, the still left one traffic light intersection so that street vendors could still make a living. In the near future I can see a big project to increase capasity on the Surekill Distressway (I-76). From the I-467 interchange all the way to City Line Ave its only 2 lanes each way. The reason is because it is between the river and a sheer cliff. THe only thing they can go is double deck the road and that's going to be a massive undertaking.
Don't hold your breath on the double-decking of the Schuylkill. There may be a way to squeeze one more lane in each direction but even that will cost lots because it's either mine the rock on one side or build a structure out over the dropoff on the other.
The last expressway you may see built in the Phila area is the continuation of the Roosevelt Extension. The depression of the center lanes is being studied in conjunction with the possible subway extension up the median (either Broad St or the El, most likely the former). Again, don't hold your breath on this one either, given the enormous price tag.
We may see the I-95/Turnpike interchange in our lifetimes, but at half a billion to do that, it will take a while (and lots of toll revenues) to finish it.
You'd think it wouldn't be hard to CONSTURCT A FREAKING INTERCHNAGE BETWEEN TWO ROADS THAT CROSS EACHOTHER! But I'm sure the NIMBY's can find a way. Do you ever think they will complete that Betsy Ross-Roosevelt road. The the BR Br./95 interchange you can see that that was planned because you get a lot bridges ending in thin air. I don't see why Boston had to do this complex, Big Dig thing anyway. Just shut down the central artery and dig the trench outright. After a few days of gridlock most commuters will just give up trying to drive in and will just take the T.
Blame that on the Turnpike Commision. Outside of Pittsburgh, they're still trying to connect I-79 to the Turnpike. The NIMBY's have that one tied up, too.
"Keep in mind that New York would likely be undergoing their own "Big Dig" today if Robert Moses had been sucessful in plowing an elevated expressway through Greenwich Village. Boston's Big Dig is the price we must now pay for our shortsightedness in not heeding the likes of Jane Jacobs when we had the chance."
It would be through SoHo. At the time SoHo was the derelict Cast Iron District. Had the highway been built, it would still be the derelict Cast Iron District and nobody would waste money there (maybe it would be called the expressway district instead). NOW, had the Mid-manhattan Expressway been built along Thirtieth Street, that would most likely be a candidate for tunneling. However, in this case, the proposal was quite interesting. Once the highway would be built, new buildings would be built in the ROW, with an easement for the highway inside the structure, the road would only rear it's ugly head at the avenues. Although the buildings would likely follow the architectural styles of the period and be disgusting block wide monoliths worthy of demolition.
I *still* don't what the Big Dig was supposed to acomplish. Drop the highways underground? Yeah, that covers them up - doesn't get rid of the traffic.
How are they going to clear up the inevitable multi car pileups that *will* happen?
What do they do when the new, undergroud, highway fills up to capacity, which it will do because highway expansion doesn't work.
I don't think the Boston area will tolerate another "Big Dig"
IMHO, any public works project that needs to be advertised with billboards proclaiming that "It's worth the wait", should send people running from it.
We have our own solution here in New York. See today's Daily News, railroaded into debt. Whereas Boston got federal money, the plans to borrow local money and go deeeeep into debt without building ANYTHING except the LIRR to GCT.
Time to plan for subway cutbacks after 2004. My guess is the Broadway Brooklyn, Sea Beach and Dyre Avenue line will be closed.
Did Scott's computer crash for a third time? It's been three full months since he has done an update. -Nick
Don't know, but Scott has a lot on his plate, and the site is low on his list of priorities. Try and be patient.
Has metro north bought any F40PH engines form amtrak for the Trans-Hudson lines?
Only two locos were purchased for services west of the Hudson. On the east end? Well, I doubt that they would ever make it into GCT. Aren't there clearance issues that need to be resolved for these kind of engines to get through Penn Station and GCT, let alone the emissions it would probably let out?
-Stef
doesn't (didn't) Amtrak run them into Penn?
No, F40s never go to Penn Station. Only FL9 and P32DM are allowed to go to Penn Station.
Chaohwa
The only issue with clearance would be needing the plow cut to clear the third rail. F40s are built to 'plate C' standards I believe, and they are only an inch or two taller than the AEM7.
-Hank
I don't think clearance would be a problem. The PRR once ran a coal train headed by 3 E44's (and we remember how big they were) through the tubes and Penn Station where they were exchanged for NH RS-3's at HAROLD. Needless to say the slack action was so bad they never tried it again.
That's questionable. I can recall seeing a picture of an F40 AMTK unit at Croton Harmon some years ago, and it cleared the underrunning rail with little or no difficulty. The F40 pulled an FL9 and Amfleet Set down to Croton Harmon. I don't know of any other instances of F40s operating in 3rd Rail Territory. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, please add.
-Stef
I've seen quite a few photos of them at Croton-Harmon myself, usually pulling a dead FL-9 on the Lake Shore.
I think most of the ones assigned back east have had the snowplows cut/modified long ago; checking some photos, it is evident.
Didn't Amtrak run them into Penn. on the long haul trains?
AMTRAK never ran ANY diesels into Penn Station. Trains were always electrically powered (GG-1s in the early days, E-60s and AEM-7s, as well as some experimental electrics, in more recent years). The HUDSON line trains would be powered by FL-9s (and now, their replacement "GENESIS"-type power ... the series number escapes me at the moment). For a very short time (in the mid-90s), the LAKE SHORE LIMITED ran its "GENESIS"-type diesels all the way to Penn Station; the FL-9s were dying at a rapid rate, and they found themselves short-handed. I don't know if they ran into the tunnel under diesel power, or they required some help. However, this was definitely not the norm!
what about the trains to say chicago, New Orleans etc. were they electic to start then had to switch???
When they ran on the Central, yes. The Turboliners, FL9s, and P32DMs can all run on the third rail. In the days of the FL9, trains going via the Empire Corridor would change engines at Albany-Renselear to an F40; but with the DMs, they run through to Chicago.
Trains to the south/west run with Toasters on the corridor to Philadelphia or Washington, and change engines there. Anything going down the line to Harrisburg changes engines at Philly, anything going through DC changes at DC.
-Hank
Thanks for the info
And anything going north to New Englande changes engines at New Haven. New Haven is the only place in the US where a true "power change" is still preformed. In Philly or DC the number of changes is small and the layover times are quite long. There you don't get the hussle and bussle or the sence of urgency. Before they started running through the Boston there were like 16-20 power changes a day. I used New Haven station many times in the months before the juice was turned on and the show and pagentry of lite engines running about and the track workers scrambling to hook up all the cables is something I'm going to miss. It was well worth the 20 min wait. I also feel bad about the Amtrak workers woh are going to loose their jobs.
PS: I also think that after some AEM's free up from ACELA the 'change might move out to Harrisburg. They are building a new intermodal yard and commuter rail is comming. I smell a joint Amtrak-PennDoT engine facility located at Penn Station: Harrisburg.
I've been told this won't happen. No need.
Those AEM7s freed up by HHL8s and Acela sets will be used on NY- and Philly-Harrisburg trains. There is very little electric service on the Harrisburg line.
-Hank
Are they still planning to run the keystone trains out of Suburban station? An even better plan would be to connect SEPA and Amtrak at North Philly and run the through trains via the Tunnel. Downtown service + no need to turn locomotive/power change at 30th St.
Emissions? Think about the NOISE an F40PH would make in a tunnel!!!
Even in the fourth car of an NJT train headed by an F40PH you can hear it loud (in the Hoboken Tunnel) The first 3 cars also have a lot of vibration.
Has metro north bought any F40PH engines from amtrak for the Trans-Hudson lines?
I went Railfanning on the Port Washington LIRR line. When I arrived at Woodside, I met some LIRR workmen. I had a small brief, conversation with them, and I asked do the Bi-levels run out to Montauk yet, or is Speonk as far as they go. They said, the Montauk Dual mode isn't on the Schedule, but one does exist. Also, When an Engineer comes in with a Dual-mode, will it go back East-bound or will it go into the West side yard? Also, I noticed A diesel near Locust Manor today while on the 3:34 Far Rockaway train. Also, what does STS mean, and what
I wonder if the CannonBall will be DM this year. Last year they ran 10 car C3's with two engines making double station stops. Hmmm...
Would have to go from a long platform at Penn >G<.
I counted 13 C-3s with a DE30AC at each end for a few weeks on the Cannonball. They ran that many cars on a Thursday cannonball near the end of the summer. It was pretty cold that day, and there were about 130 people on the whole train (observation from platform). The conductors were puzzled about the lack of customers. The next week the Thursday Cannonball ran with 6 cars and only one engine.
If they run it from Penn, I hope they run it from tracks 13-16, right across from an NJT or Amtrak train that is boarding or unloading (to show off).
Anybody know how long the C-3's are? I'm just guessing, but I think they're about the same length, or perhaps a little shorter, than the M-1's
Same length, 85'.
I thought that trains used wheels? What gives?
I have a picture taken from the inside of Flushing redbird (you can see Shea Stadium in the background), but the windows are the type on the mainline cars (not the sliding ones, the GOH ones). The picture was taken in 1993, probably April. Does the Flushing line still have mainline cars? What cars were these, R33, R36, R26, R28, or R29?
Not any longer. During this time, 1991-95, the R-36s were undergoing repainting and some general upgrading which required Mainline R-33s to go to Flushing for a time. Among them were cars 9290-9305, as well as some others that were sent over.
You could even find Flushing R-36s on the 5 for a short time! This happened only during the time the cars were undergoing rehab.
-Stef
I went to Washington D.C. Union Station this evening. I saw AEM7 916 hauling Train #85 into the station. AEM7 916 is one of the two AEM7ACs running on NEC. The other one is AEM7 918.
Here is a picture of AEM7 918. If you look at that picture closely, you will see that AEM7AC has one heat radiator around each pantograph at each side. This is the main difference in appearance between AEM7 and AEM7AC.
I heard that there were a lot problems when AEM7AC was tested. Today I am encouraged to see AEM7 916 run solo. Hopefully there will be more AEM7ACs ruuning on the NEC.
Chaohwa
There was a service disruption on the 2 between 135th and 149th? Can I get details?????
There was a derailment on the Lex this evening at 59st, and it's running on FOX right now.
-Hank
It will be very interesting to learn what caused this uptown express to de-rail, as there aren't any switches in that area.
Mr t__:^)
According to the Times today the derailment was 500 ft. north of 68th St and was caused by a broken rail.
Does anyone know if any cars were damaged?
There's another thread that I saw after viewing this one with more info ... Red Bird Trouble.
Mr t__:^)
SOP after a derailment is to replace all trucks involved. Hence the trucks would require replacement. The only reported car equipment damage was a broken shoe beam on one of the derailed trucks.
or is this an oppertunity to scrap a few redbirds????
If any of them were severely corroded, I'd have to say yes.
If any of these cars were candidates to be scrapped, that determination would have been made when the car was inspected. The fact that the car was in service indicates that it was road-worthy and not ready for scrapping. The only reason a car would be scrapped after a derailment (where there is no car-body damage) is if the frame became twisted. This might not be immediately evident and would only be determined by tramming the car after de-trucking.
How is "tramming" done
Tramming can be done any number of ways but basically involves measuring the diagonal distances from the corners of the car body. If they are not equal, then there is trouble.
I see. If the car is no longer rectangular in cross section, you have a problem.
For a broken shoe beam? Nah, we don't think so.
Wayne
Well, I'll be on a look out for those cars. If there was minimal damage, then i would expect they'd return quickly after proper inspections and part replacement, no?
-Stef
I'm also puzzled by the fact that a 2 car train of Redbirds came up the line. I rarely (almost never) see a 2 car train of Redbirds on the Mainline. What did they decide to do, cut two good cars away from 8 bad ones? Of course, as Train Dude kindly pointed out, 1 R-28 and 2 R-29s derailed. If anything, 4 cars should have been left, and 6 could have been cut away.
-Stef
If truck replacment is needed on these cars they will be taken to 207th st I was there today new line of redbirds there they are from the #6 line seen older redbirds in the truck repair house R26 class still retaining there orginal windows unlike the rehabbed redbirds. Also 4 R42s also recieving truck work and if anyone is wondering WF cars 9500,9501 are still there
What exactly happened?
The train derailed over a broken rail as it headed north, or so the reports say.
-Stef
The 2 doesn't run between 135th and 149th. The following do however:
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
I do believe you just told a joke. Good one.....
-Stef
Want a bag of corn with that?
ps.. hanky.. how can the derailment near 59th
have anything to do with the 135th-149th
situation???
Do I want a bag of corn with that? Sure..... If it's a full length feature, I'll certainly need it.
-Stef
Good enough for a rim shot, I'd say.
Smoke condition during rush hour.......
BM34x
The latest idea on the SVM, which was unveiled at public hearings this week, is to revert to what SEPTA GM Leary calls 'Metrorail', a cross between commuter rail and light rail. Apparently, this compromises all sides, taking care of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers' concerns about light rail on freight tracks and the Delaware Valley Rail Passengers' insistence on commuter rail. Leary also noted that this would involve off-the-shelf technology, especially cars (one article noted that no one wanted to repeat the debacle of the purchase of new cars for the 'R(sic) 100 line').
Using cars designed to have the buff strength for operation in mixed freight/passenger operation with a car that did not require the on-board crew that the typical commuter rail vehicle does, the car would be designed with eventual fleet conversion to this type system-wide (when the Silverliners wear out). This brings more fuel to a recent SEPTA effort to look for replacements for the S'liner fleet, which is nearing 25 years of age for the IV's, over 30 for the III's and creeping up on 40 for the II's.
The route would also marry a couple of options previously suggested, some of which involved street running in Center City and use of the former City Branch cut north of Callowhill Street. The new route stays on the railroad all the way, with the main spine down the ex-Reading from the namesake town to the R6 at Norristown and into Center City, back out the Cynwyd side of R6 to Ivy Ridge, tieing back into the R6 Norristown, and branching off west of Norristown to King of Prussia/Glenloch.
More info is available on the SEPTA website and more will be passed along as it comes in.
Has anyone been to the hearings? I'm thinking about heading over to
the one tonight on Spring Garden at 6:00.
Anybody got their results from the Conductors exam back in June? Anyway I can get in contact with someone???????
BM34x
Hey BM34 i have the conductors Exam from July not June but the problem is you don't have email so i can send it to you. So BM34 just send me email & i will send Conductors Answer Exam to you.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
Now that I don't have your attention.
I know that nobody gets as far as this sentence so the rest of the message will be laced with profanity.
SUBWAY+-
When the HuBeLiRT opens in nearby Hudson County, New Jersey I intend to make it part of the FOLLOWING trip:
PATH to the X-change Place
HuBey to Z-change Place (just joking, ignore this one, move on to #3)
Hudson Bergen Glorified Trolley to Limousine Liberal Avenue
Back to Tyranny State Park
Down to the Branch of Miracles!
Special shuttle down to Baylease waterfront
Walk across Baylease Bridge to
Pick up 553 BUS at Port Richmond Equiangular Orthogonal Quadrilateral
Take bus across Very Zany-Widens Bridge
sU(bway) "R" syoT to Square root of 81 Street (I TOLD YOU THAT WAS A FUNNY WORD!)
[[[[[[CENSORED]]]]]]] to former Nation of Streets leader Avenue X.
BTW, you should appreciate this trip, this crap is going to cost me almost 3 million.
what in the hell is this guy talking about ?? ........ since he used a killfile to hide behind he wont see this ....!!
ha!!....ha!!!.....ha..!!....ha!.....
YOU WOULD BE IMMATURE ENOUGH TO SAY THAT....Nevermind....We expect that of you.
you are immature too !! nevermind......... it flushed you out of hiding !!......... lets see if pigs can fall victim too !!
after all some of you are idiots arent you ?
One of the most interesting excursions I have taken is the Cass Scenic Railroad in West Virginia. It is a 4 hour round trip excursion to the summit of Bald Knob some 4,600 feet high. The ride is in open cars and is powered by 2 Shay steam locomotives. Do any of you RR enthusiasts know what a Shay locomotive is ? I think it had something to do with navigating steep grades but I really do not know and would appreciate any help you could give me on the subject.
A Shay uses a large shaft and gears instead of driving rods to turn the drivers. It allows the drive wheels to be on trucks, and articulate, rather than be rigid, like on a regular steam locomotive.
I wonder whether anyone ever tried using a steam turbine in a railroad engine.
Yes. Pennsy's S-2 C&O's Jawn Henry comes immediately to mind, as does C&O's Jawn Henry. I'm sure there were others. The Pennsy unit was moderately successful, but since it was developed simultaneous with the diesel locomotive it didn't stand a chance. Its prodigious size also kept it confined to a limited area of the system.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There were three basic types of geared steam locomotives used primarily by logging operations where trackage was poor, grades were steep, and curves were tight.
1. Shay. 2. Climax. 3. Heisler.
The Shay (named after Ephraim Shay) was about the most popular. A shay uses vertical pistons (usually 3) and a horizontal driveshaft that drives every wheel on the locomotive, for maximum effort, but at very slow speed.
Climaxes and Heislers were similar, but used different piston arrangements and axle-mounted driveshaft gearboxes. A Shay's gears are exposed on the engineer's side. Hence the boiler is off-center to balance the weight.
The Cass operation is the legacy of the Mower Lumber Company, which used Shays into the 1960s, among the last. Monster trucks have all but replaced logging railways today.
The largest Shay ever built is preserved at tne B&O museum in Baltimore.
This morning at around 9:30am I was standing at the very front of the downtown 2/3 platform at Times Square. A 3 train pulled in that was so crowded that some of us didn't get on.
As the train pulled out of the station there were two punks riding between the last two cars. As the train sped by, they leaned over and PUNCHED the guy standing next to me! Mind you, the train was moving fast at this point and it must have hurt, a lot. What f****ing a***oles! I can only hope that at some point they leaned over and got it in the face by a column at 40 mph.
There were no police around me at all, otherwise I would have told them to try and get them.
04/12/2000
Maybe with some luck next time they will lose their footing and fall bewteen the cars and be carved up big time. Then the family will sue the TA for making it dangerous for punching passengers!
Bill Newkirk
The families' legal argument would be the same as what was offered by fare evaders when the MetroCard turnstyles were introduced: "While the ACT is illegal, the ABILITY to commit it is a constitutionally protected right."
But if there is no free will, what virtue is there in being good?
Seriously, the only way to stop people from bringing frivolous lawsuits is to stop them from bring any lawsuits. You choose.
The way to eliminate frivolous lawsuits is to eliminate "no fee unless we win" and institute loser pays. These two changes would not stop really sensible lawsuits from being filed, just the junk ones.
Lawsuits like "30 victims on an out-of service bus" and suing both SEPTA and the Chicago Transit Authority for being hit by a motorman's door on one of SEPTA's ex-CTA 6000's.
I think those punks are cowards, that's why they did it in between cars as opposed to inside cars, and they did it while the train is moving and doors closed as to when doors are open. It's just like those who's been targeting livery cab drivers. Sooner or later the things they are doing will come back to haunt them and they will not know what happened.
Did they punch him or did they give him a body glove? If I had been there I would have gotten on my knees and prayed for a sudden BIE.
I am sorry you had an unpleasant experience. Next time get the car numbers and go to the booth and ask them to call the train deskmaster. The desk trainmaster can call the police and have the cops meet the train at the next station. Also give time the train arrived and the direction(Brooklyn, Bronx, etc.) and try to give a description of the troublemaker(s) and why you want the police.
Anytime if you are in a station and see such an incident go to the booth and ask them to call. If you are on a train, try to find the conductor or train operator and ask that the police be called.
If a customer requests police, we must comply.
While i was watching on Ch 5 News when they give a breaking news about #5 Trains was derails between 59th St & 86th St Updown & the last cars was derail but i didn't have enough information about this so watch the news at 11pm & found out what happen.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Three cars of the 18:39 #5 derailed north of 59th Street. At the present time, focus is on a possible broken rail as the cause. Minimal damage and no injuries were reported.
Why did it take two hours to evacuate the train? Why couldn't a rescue train have been provided a hell of a lot sooner? The MTA is usually very slow on the draw to evacuate. Not good.
I was not on the scene so I don't know what the problems were. However, from what we know about derailments and evacuations, we can make some intelligent guesses.
FIRST: When the train derailed at least one shoe beam was destroyed. From this we can conclude that there was 3rd rail damage and power in the entire sector blew. This means that you could not run a rescue train until you restored power. This can't be done until you remove the short that caused the power to blow first.
SECOND: There were roughly 1,800 people on the derailed train. However, due to the derailed train, perhaps 6 - 8 other trains were also stalled. Those trains also had to be moved into stations so that those customers could also be evacuated (once power could be restored). After all, one of those trains would ultimately become the rescue train for the derailed train.
THIRD: Moving emergency response personnel to the scene during rush hour, along Lexington Avenue is no small feat
FINALLY: Once the power is restored and all of the stalled trains are moved into stations and discharged, supervisors must be in place and signals tied down so the rescue train can be moved into place. Then, of course, you are going to walk 1,800 through up to 10 cars through one storm door into another train through one end door. That takes time - lots of time. Unlike in "The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3", having customers climb down and walk along the trackbed without flashlights and adequate manpower support, is not an option.
I have been involved in 2 evacuations over the last 20 years and neither to this extent. I can only imagine the logistical nightmare that was involved. All in all, no one was injured and I'd say they did a great job under the circumstances.
There is a catwalk on Lex local tracks from at least 51st to 59th stations. Is there anything like that on the express tracks?
Arti
Even if there were a catwalk, ever walk on one. How many of those 1800 people do you think might have slipped off while squeezing around signal casings and fire standpipes?
I guess you right, but still is there a catwalk :-)
Arti
Since there is seperation between express & local at that point means that there is at least one catwalk. I'm really just guessing at this point, however.
How many of those 1800 people do you think might have slipped off while squeezing around signal casings and fire standpipes?
To the extent that the catwalks were designed to provide quick emergency egress, doesn't the placement of equiment on the catwalks interfere with this primary purpose?
One can easily imagine situations wherein an evacuation delay of 1 to 2 hours could cause serious injury.
I agree with S.B. (for a change). I have trouble with heat and lack of air, and often feel it worse in cold weather (when you have your coat on and get on a crowded train with the heater blasting) than warm. Being packed in for two hours on your feet could cause a lot of pass-outs, esp. among the elderly. And what if there had been a fire?
There is obviously a delay in figuring out what happened, and determining the power is out. At that point, if it is rush hour, perhaps the young and nimble could be offered the chance to walk out at their own risk. In addition to allowing some people to leave, it would provide more air and space for everyone else.
I realize this would be a problem if there was another train between the derailment and the next station or exit point.
Who supervises evacuations? Do the T/O, conductor, and station personnel have a role? Can they evacuate a train after a radio discussion with supervision? Or does everyone have to wait until emergency personnel and supervisors are on the scene? And how far away are those from different points in the system?
First S.B.'s assumption that catwalks were placed for emergency egress is not necessarilly true. He seems to have a problem with (TA) management and seizes on every flimsy pretext to knock them. If catwalks were meant for emergency access they would have been built wider and higher without obstacles. They (catwalks) are for utility purposes.
Walk out at their own risk? In today's society there is no such thing as at one's own risk. How long do you think it would take to get those young and nimble to sign release forms if they were available. Another thing, once those young and nimble are on the roadbed, you delay further the restoration of power and movement of a rescue train. Finally, what if one of those Y & N peopel trip over a signal box or a drain or a cable or spare rail or any one of dozens of obstacles on the track bed. Then you need EMS on the roadbed too.
In theory, the ranking member of supervision is in charge of an evacuation. The train operator or conductor would never take it upon themselves except in the situation of an immediate emergency such as a fire or a flood.
As to why you don't want people evacuating themselves or walking the roadbed, let me give you a case in point. Around 1986, a train of R-32s stalled in the 11th Street cut approaching Queens Plaza. It lost all battery power rendering the 600V useless. The people in the train, in total darkness, without PA or fans, naturally paniced. They kicked out windows and made their way into the tunnel with E, F, & G trains still moving around them. When Control Center finally found out what was going on, they stopped all service on Queens Blvd. They pulled power on all tracks and spent the next 3 hours searching the tunnels for strays. While I could appreciate the plight of the people on the stalled train, they turned what have been a moderately long delay and turned it into a epic for tens of thousands of commuters.
On any form of transportation, whether it be our own vehicles or a bus, a train, an airplane or a ship, at some point an emergency will occur in a less than opportune spot and emergency help will not be immediately accessible. In those times, one can only hope to control the situation and keep it from deteriorating further. I think the TA did that. Unless you've been in an evacuation situation of that magnitude, you can't imagine the emornity of the task.
Admitedly, the Lexington Express at rush hour is the worst of all possible scenarios for an evacuation (except perhaps for a river tunnel, but perhaps not).
While I don't have the answer, there has to be some contingency plan in place to get people out. I could see people with medical problems dying from a combination of heat and crowding on a crush-loaded train. Perhaps special attention needs to be paid to evacuation scenarios in places and at times where crush loading takes place.
It would be great if trains could have battery back ups so that they can move in case the power goes out. I don't know if there is a battery powerful enough to move a 10 car train though.
Not even close. The concept is great, but even with today's advanced battery technology there's no way. Every other car would have to be a huge battery, and even then you wouldn't have enough power to get upgrade out of a river tunnel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can't have 600 volt batteries.
All batteries that you can buy for regular applications are no more than 1.5* volts, a car battery is 12 volts. In order to have 600 volts, you need 50 car batteries connected in series, and a car battery doesn't even do much, imagine the size that these batteries would have to be in order to maintain the charge necessary to keep the train moving!
You can't have 600 volt batteries.
Not true. Batteries larger than that have been around for years.
...imagine the size that these batteries would have to be in order to maintain the charge necessary to keep the train moving!
Precisely my point. They are impractical for any kind of heavy rail application. But large, relatively high-voltage batteries (90 volts seems to stick in my mind, but don't quote me on that) have been used in submarines since some time prior to World War II for silent running.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are they actual 600 volt batteries or just a bunch of batteries tied in series, like a 9 volt battery?
I'm aware of experimental batteries that could sustain a 2400 volt charge, under no-load conditions, for about 30 minutes before an appreciable drop in voltage (5%, IIRC) could be measured. Under load they were good for about two to three minutes. They were part of the early development of UPS capability for computer systems, and were installed in a lab at IBM's research center in Yorktown Heights, NY when I worked there in the late '70s. The battery lab, which had several different batteries in it, occupied about 10,000 square feet of space directly adjacent to the main computer floor. I know nothing about the materials used in the construction of these batteries, other than to say that I assume they were not liquid-based because the lab did not have any safety warnings of the type common to the small chemical lab at the other end of the building. The half-dozen scientists in the battery lab kept my office-mate busy writing FORTRAN programs to analyze their data (I was helping to write an improved PL-I compiler back in those days).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I'm aware of experimental batteries that could sustain a 2400 volt charge]
These must have been some type of capacitors. A single battery cell can provide (depending of technolgy) from 1 to 3 V.
Arti
I don't think so, because capacitative discharge systems were already pretty well understood at that time. These guys were attempting to develop a practical high-power storage battery that could keep a mainframe running long enough to write active memory to disk, which meant powering not only the mainframe but two huge, slow (by today's standards) high-speed drum storage devices for about four minutes. I'm not sure what the ultimate fate of the project was, but on my last visit to the Yorktown Heights facility in early 1981 (my assignment was moved to Poughkeepsie in mid-1979) the lab was gone.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Are they actual 600 volt batteries or just a bunch of batteries tied in series, like a 9 volt battery? ]
All batteries above 3V have to be a bunch of cells tied in series including 12V car battery.
Arti
You could propel a car with batteries, however weight would be a major problem. and the batteries themselves would be a hazard in a high speed incident Remember the NYC "Three Power" (Diesel - BATTERY- Third Rail) locomotives? in fact, I have investigated the possibility of using such power for an MP-54 but battery power is totally impractical for the NYC Subway
In Moscow they have a battery powered engine.
Arti
I thought I read or saw somewhere that the R-142's will have some way of moving the train w/out 3rd rail power. Maybe not batteries, but a small generator or a capacator?
The R-142s have regenerative braking, which returns energy used in braking to the third rail for use by other trains in the area. In the event a regenerative braking-equipped train encounters a third rail "dead spot," the on-board computers are supposed to immediately recognize that the third rail is dead and shut off the regenerating capability. The cars will not be able to take power without a "live" third rail.
David
First S.B.'s assumption that catwalks were placed for emergency egress is not necessarilly true. ... If catwalks were meant for emergency access they would have been built wider and higher without obstacles. They (catwalks) are for utility purposes.
The following from 1915 Engineering News article was reprinted in "Building the New Rapid Transit System of New York City", by Fred Lavis.
"As is shown on the various cross-ssecions, provision is made for building the conduits for the electrical wires in a side-bench wall with a walk on the top, instead of placing them in the sidewalls, as in the old subway."
The various cross-sections show that the catwalks are 2'1" wide and have hanrails that are located 3' above the walk. The catwalks are 4' above the base of the rail. The edge of the walk is 5'3" from the roadbed centerline. This would leave a 9" gap to the side of the IRT width car.
The current fire regulations for the minimum width of emergency passageways is 3'.
The introduction of catwalks predates the Dual Contracts. They were incorporated into the Triborough Subway but not the original subway.
Any definitive reason for their existence researching engineering articles from the 1908 period. However, nowhere in the 1915 articles is there mention nor example of any obstruction on the catwalks. Moreover, specifically mentioning the conduits beneath the walks would indicate that the intent was that they be kept clear of obstruction.
My statement was: To the extent that the catwalks were designed to provide quick emergency egress, doesn't the placement of equiment on the catwalks interfere with this primary purpose?
I made this statement based on my recollections from reading the original source documentation several decades ago. I have not recently uncovered any documentation that leads me to doubt my interpretation of the designers intent for the catwalks' primary purpose as stated in my original post.
The major questions should be: is a 2 hour long evacuation in the adequate and if it isn't what can be done to shorten the evacuation time?
This is an abstract question with serious material consequences.
It must remain abstract because there is no legal way to force the MTA to obey any local safety or health regulations. To the extent that they are immune from such restraint, they must bear full responsibility for any safety shortcomings in their operation.
I read that the lights stayed on in the train. Therefore, there was still power. Also, this derailment happened at the very end of the rush hour, so there shouldn't have been that many trains to unload or reroute compared to the height of the rush hour. What I don't understand is why it took so long to get a rescue train to the scene.
I would think that the motorman would have contacted the command center within a few minutes after the derailment happened. That should have given the train following the one that derailed a chance to
unload at either Grand Central or 59th St. Perhaps part of the delay was getting appropriate supervisors to the scene. But, two hours to do that? I think the MTA needs to get a better evacuation plan. No one should have to be stranded on a train for 2 hours.
"I read that the lights stayed on in the train. Therefore, there was still power."
WRONG !!!. The lights work off battery through a device known as an inverter ballast
"I don't understand is why it took so long to get a rescue train to the scene."
I don't know why you don't understand it after reading my post but I'll give it to you again. The power was off and had to be restored before a rescue train could be moved into position, customers discharged and then moved upto the derailed train
"I would think that the motorman would have contacted the command center within a few minutes after the derailment happened. That should have given the train following the one that derailed a chance to unload at either Grand Central or 59th St."
What info do you have that says the train operator didn't radio control center immediately? When the train derailed, it blew power on all 4 tracks - instantly. So, unless the IRT can run on batteries, the trains stopped when the power went off. They couldn't move again until the short was removed and the power was restored.
"I think the MTA needs to get a better evacuation plan. No one should have to be stranded on a train for 2 hours."
Why don't you formulate a better evacuation plan? It's obvious that you have a vast understanding of how rapid transit systems operate.
I have the feeling that you work for the TA since you seem very defensive about it. While I understand your explanations, we are both assuming things since we weren't there. Until we read an official explanation by the TA, we can only conjecture.
My bone of contention is that there didn't seem to be a sense of urgency in this situation. I remember seeing an emergency exit connecting the upper and lower levels of the Lex line at the 68th St.
station. Couldn't that have been used for evacuation or as access for
emergency personnel?
Yes, I agree with you that sometimes these incidents happen in bad spots, but I've noticed that the response time isn't always very fast.
Perhaps the motorman and the conductor should be given more leeway in emergencies of possible long duration.
I am not a transit professional, just someone who has ridden the subways for over 40 years. Perhaps my thinking is too progressive, logical, or naive?
Anyway, I contacted the Customer Relations Dept. of the MTA about the derailment incident and asked for the MTA's explanation of what happened and why there was such a long delay. I'm supposed to be contacted. Stay tuned.
i know the fire department has had practice drills involving a simulation of a disaster in the subways... i would be interested to know if there were fire , police,or ems people on the scene making any judgment about the need for emergency aid for any of the people... i would hope that if anyone needed emergency treatment that they would have been aided immediately...
it is a reasonable concern of riders to have the comfort of knowing that help will be available in the event of serious injury...
i don't know the details... but when that irt train crashed around 14th street quite a few years ago, i think emergency help was on the scene pretty fast... i don't think needing that kind of reassurance is asking too much.
I had a relative who worked for EMS who was on the scene at the Union Square disaster. He said that while he was trying to get the wounded out, he was obstructed by people trying to rush INTO the subway to file lawsuits.
"I have the feeling that you work for the TA since you seem very defensive about it."
Yes and no!!! Yes, I work for the TA. I'm a Superintendent in the Department of Subways but no, I'm not defensive about it. However, I do take exception to people who criticize without knowledge of the subject. You say your bone of cotention is that there didn't seem to be a sense of urgency. How would you know? Did you monitor the radio or the 6-wire? Let me give you a little insight. The first thing the crew is asked is to assess damage and see if anyone requires medical assistance. This, of course would take presidence over all else. beyond that, if there is no immediate emergency, then the rescue is done according to a logical sequence of operations. In this way, the greatest number of people are evacuated in the shortest period of time. Further, for your information, this type of incident is practiced via inter-agency drills (TA, Police, Fire and EMS) every few months.
I'll take a group of professionals,calmly doing their jobs over a bunch of yahoos running around hastily making bad decisions. YOU TELL 'em "Dude"
Darn Tootin'. There's no substitute for experience. None.
[I think the MTA needs to get a better evacuation plan. No one should have to be stranded on a train for 2 hours.]
In addition to the points that TrainDude has raised, there's also the fact that 1,800 people had to exit the disabled train and enter the rescue train _through a single door_. And many of them had to walk through up to ten cars of the disabled train just to get to that point, and once in the rescue train many of them had to shepherded toward the rear cars (no room for all 1,800 in the first car). I'd say it was a remarkable accomplishment to get all of that done in just two hours!
Transfering the passengers at a rate of one per second would have taken 30 minutes. Has anyone ever timed how long it takes to move 180 people out of a car through its end door?
Until the TA rebuilds the road beds so that all of the tripping hazards are removed, one can't blame them for doing every thing in their power to keep passengers inside the trains when the power goes off.
While I agree that two hours is an excessive period for an evacuation from a crush-loaded train, I don't see a safe way of doing it much more quickly given the existing design of the tunnels and rolling stock. Sure, you could equip the trains with evacuation slides. You could re-bore the tunnels so that they are wide enough for safe walkways next to the tracks. Until that happens, the only way to reduce the time to unload a train substantially is to unload it from both ends. How difficult would it have been to discharge a train at 125th Street and run it wrong rail back to the point of derailment, assuming that the front car was stable enough and properly positioned to use its end door?
Actually, the three cars that derailed were in the middle of the train and not consecutive. It seems that some rode over the broken rail successfully while others did not. It's an interesting idea to attempt a rescue from both ends of the stalled train. I suppose it could be done but a considerable number of signals would need to be hooked down and that takes much time.
Just got this from the 11PM news- a northbound #5 train derailed in the express track beneath Lexington Avenue somewhere between 68th & 77th Street stations at about 7:40PM - hit a broken rail, so they say; four cars slightly derailed but upright; train was carrying 1800 people. 9 people injured, all minor.
Wayne
Yeah, sounds like one set of trucks from one car derailed over a broken rail, or rail joint.
The news report said that the line SHOULD be back to "normal" by the morning rush. We'll see...
Doug aka BMTman
[train was carrying 1800 people. 9 people injured, all minor]
Odd. I would've figured that there'd be _1900_ people claiming to be injured :-)
Peter, you miscalculated -- there were at least a dozen rats injured on the trackbed ;-)
Channel 7 reported that the train derailed somwhere in the vicinity of 68th St and a rescue train was dispatched to get the passengers to a nearby station.
If anyone has exact details (particularly TA personnel), please report. I'd also like to get car numbers....
Additional Info, Observations: Being that the train that derailed was a #5 train, it was possible for me to observe anything peculiar on the road heading up to the yard (I live near the el). Nothing out of the ordinary was observed by the gentlman writing to you now, except for one thing. At approximately 11PM, I observed a 2 car train of Redbirds pass my window. I didn't get the opportunity to get car numbers, but the pair was signed for the 5. I wonder if that was the pair that derailed? This would probably mean that the rest of the train that was unaffected by the derailment was uncoupled possibly to act as the rescue train and bring the passengers into the station.
How often do you see a 2 car train of Redbirds running on the Mainline? Only the Revenue Collector runs as a two car train. By the way, is there a policy for how many cars the TA is supposed to run on a train, that is the minimum number of cars that can run on the road?
-Stef
too bad it didnt happen to a 142 !!
Whatever..........
-Stef
when a 142 derails it will fall apart.............and brand new junk shatered into pieces ...!!! ( whatever ) ???
WITH YOU IN IT!
no........with you inside the transverse cab !!
Stop the squabbling at once or we'll have you assigned to pigeon duty at Stillwell Avenue! :o> <o:
wayne
next fall i will be there ! make sure to say that to my face ! ......also...........on the subject of GIANTS STADIUM ..
why are there so many hardheads that bury thier heads in the sands that all sports stadiums all or in part.....
( excuse me )..........................are paid by TAXPAYER DOLLARS......!!!!!!! ( thank you ).............
Can't take a joke, can you? Oh well...
Wayne
thats what i am saying like a hunter you have to make some noise before you can shoot some quail
( i dont do this ) .......also i wanted to see who did not use his silly killfile system to hide behind !...
.......testing.......1....2......3.......!!
I think I'm suffering from insomnia. I'm still wondering what happened earlier in the evening. Nothing new to report on this end other than the fact that a light 8 car train came just a few minutes ago. It was a number 5 train. But wait! Was this a transfer from the shop or could it have been the train involved in the derailment? Hmmmm. 2 cars came up earlier in the night plus 8 cars that came up a few moments ago = 10 car train. The 2 cars were running at normal speed while the 8 car train was running slow. So I really have to wonder what the big picture is.
-Stef
The following cars derailed:
8697, 8696 & 7889 (all of them, red)
Thank You! I belive that the set I spotted was indeed it, and passed through my area at 3AM, running slow, minus 2 cars.
-Stef
Duuude! Do you ever sleep?
HA! I'm the type of guy who posts around the clock. But that's me. I don't know how may others post around the clock, but you're guess is as good as mine.
-Stef
Redbirds -- They take a licking, but keep on ticking. (OK, they also keep on rusting, but that's besides the point here)
That's because they keep taking a LICKING!
-Hank :)
PS-EWWWWWWW!!
In that case, how about: Redbirds -- a natural source of iron?
That was a "KILLER" responce hank thanks. 'redbird'
That's what Bondo is for. That and Rustoleum.-)
Well, I suppose once the Birds get to the Main Shoppe to have their frames checked and their shoes mended, they can have the Body Doctors do a spot-check, and, if necessary, be seen by the Bondo Squad. If they were coming to my repair track, I would, of course, give them preferential treatment; after all, they ARE senior citizens.
Wayne
And admittedly, not quite as sturdy as a BMT Standard or a Triplex. But getting out of a derailment with only a broken shoe on one car isn't bad for a bunch of 38- to 41-year-old geezers...
I wholeheartedly agree! They wear their ages very well, don't they. I wonder if that was a #4 (R62) train what would have happened. Probably the same thing, but...
Wayne
TA was most likly in a hurry to get these cars back to the yard since they were oporatinal the 2 cars were cut from the rest of the train and sent to 239th st for proper investigation where the other 8 cars will go to 180th st
Channel 4 and WCBS 880 say service is now normal.
Now for Salaam, et al- I realize Salaam hates the 142. He has the right to say he does not like the R142. Mark W-- I do think wishing someone gets hurt is a nice thing to wish on anyone. How would you feel if someone said "I wish Mark W..."
We do have free speech but free speech does not allow slander. We cannot go into a bank and scream this is a robbery and then say "it was a joke". I'm sure we'd still be arrested. We cannot go into a crowded theater (or department store) and scream "fire".
Please- you do not have to like anyone but dont slander! let's act like adults.
04/12/2000
While surfing Sub-Talk a new MTA commercial pops up on the TV screen by my desk. The focus is the new LIRR Bi-level car and how new, comfortable and sleek they are. They failed to tell us that the Bi-levels are still being retrofitted in Sunnyside yard and that the old "electric heat" (#2900 series) 1955 coaches are supposed to return this summer because of an equipment shortage.
25 electric heats are due to return, they also didn't say that the new DE-30's, #405 & #422 have failing main generators and two have been sent back for repairs. But if they told of these negatives that would make us go back to our cars and that's what thet don't want!
BTW- Cab car #5001 which was damaged in a side swipe at Richmond Hill yard has not had the final disposition yet. Loosely translated that means it was seriously damaged, now do we repair it or scrap it. Oh well! that's the way the stainless steel crunches !!
Bill Newkirk
You mean that there may be more of those "old diesels" back in the summer? I'm sure the "lovely" Oyster Bay line will get the bulk of them.
The OB line sucks. The trains go so slow.(no expresses and low ridership)
For me I hate the line so much I take the bus to Mineola or Great Neck and get LIRR there.
If you do commute on LIRR don't think of moving to Glen Cove, Oyster Bay, or Roslyn, it's a big mistake.
They should've electrified the Oyster Bay branch and the PJ branch, it would've been much better in the long run. Then again we're dealing with the LIRR. It may not be all their fault though, there are many NIMBY's in areas like Glen Cove and Roslyn who will oppose electrification (and any commercial development) for their psychotic reasons.
04/13/2000
[They should've electrified the Oyster Bay branch and the PJ branch, it would've been much better in the long run]
The reason why we have the Bi-levels is that the LIRR failed to electricify the Port Jeff branch as planned. So it goes!
Bill Newkirk
The main problem with the Oyster Bay Line has nothing to do with it being electric or not. It has the same problem as the West Hempstead, Long Beach, or Far Rockaway Branches (which are all electric). And thats that the line branches off its main line and becomes a North/South line. Look at how many miles it does after Mineola without it going any further out on the island. Anyone living in Glen Cove, Roslyn, etc would be much better off driving to Port Washington which isn't far at all and the trainride in would probably be half the distance!! Remember, up until the early seventies the main line was electric only to Mineola (trains to East Williston) and nobody really complained about diesels to Westbury, Hicksville, etc.
You're right about lack of electrification not being the real problem. I think that the original poster was using it as a symbol for the generally poor service and all around lack of concern for the line by the management.
Electrification of the OB line, in addition to out to Port Jeff (which SHOULD have been done yerars ago), and out maybe to Patchauge, is something that will remain an elusive dream for years.
As far as Oyster Bay, though, I think electrifying to Glen Cove would make sense - but only if a third track to Hicksville is dumped in. The big bottlenecks on the OB line are the clogging between Bellerose and Mineola, and the glacially slow operation of the Diesels beyond there.
As far as Nimbys in the Glen Cove area - they should worry more about Foxwoods than anything else. Electrfying to OB line isn't gonna add any traffic, but a ferry terminal in Glen Cover sure as hell is - and lets face it - with alcoholic drinks being served on board, and what will likely be a largely elderly ridership, it's not going to bring in the best drivers either. not to mention those chartered busses.
Oh, NO!!! NOT THEM AGAIN! I must be being punished for something I said.
What sideswiped #5001? Locomotive? MU? Diesel Coaches???
Wayne
04/13/2000
[What sideswiped #5001? Locomotive? MU? Diesel Coaches??? ]
Don't know for sure. If I hear anything, I'll let you know.
Bil Newkirk
I was in Salt Lake City last weekend, due to a cancelled flight, and I saw their UTA-TRAX Light Rail System. I had not heard anything about it before I arrived downtown.
I did not get a chance to ride it mainly because I did not have enough time after I discovered that it existed.
Their website stated that service started Dec 4, 1999.
Was there any Sub-Talk discussion on this system? I know that it is quite a distance from New York, but gee whiz, it represents a major advance for the rail cause in the US, another new system besides the Hudson Light Rail and it came into being apparently without much fanfare .
I know some of UTA-Trax is part of Preparation for the 2002 [Scandalous] Winter Olympic Games that we have heard so much about. The road "destruction" of I-15 and I-80, which was a real mess, is another part.
But if Salt Lak City can do it, and with New York so interested in trying to get the 2012 Summer Olympic Games, who knows, we might get a Second Avenue Subway if NYC were to be awarded the 2012 Games.
I'm not sure if there are any NY subway fans in SLC. Are there any NY Subway fans in the Twin Cities?
The only one R62A I can add on my list on the Years Of Our Lives cars being boarded is a famous one for you Met fans out there: 1969
Still no sighting or boarding of my birth year yet: 1978
I did, however see 1970 though.
Any new news on the status of 1909? The R62A minus 1909 will have at least one odd set (similar to the 1431-2-3-4-8 set of R62's) if the currently unmarried, bachelor/ette cars stay that way.
Nick
I rode on 1969 last fall. It was the first car of a southbound 3 train, and it got up to 47 mph at 50th St. Not only that, but it kept right on going instead of slowing down halfway through the station.
Still haven't seen my birth year car yet, 1956.
I remember 1969 very well; in fact, I can still hear Curt Gowdy saying, "and the Mets are the world champions!" as Cleon Jones caught Davey Johnson's fly ball to wrap it up.
1956 is out there. It has a full width cab, so it is end car.........
BM34x
1978 was seen on the 3 line..
1901 (from the GCShuttle) also on the 3..
2000.. nuff said.
1956 was also on the 3 line..
I'd like the number plate off 1995 (graduation)
and 1977 (d.o.b)
In that case, I wouldn't mind seeing #1975, which was my high school graduation year, and 1980, my college graduation year - the very day Mount St. Helens blew up, as a matter of fact.
I'm in the same boat as you. I have not seen my birthyear, 1986. I got a pic of 1776 over on the 6, though.
I've been on #1969 a number of times; it has some of the weepiest wheels in the entire R62A fleet. #1992 has a backwards door-chime; #1954 is my birth year; every time I try and photograph her, she runs away (she's shy).
Wayne
I actually saw #1992 in the consist which had #1969 on it. That was on a northbound #3 sometime on Mar 26. I don't exactly know if there were other #19xx numbers in that batch, though.
Nick
Actually, when the accident happened back on November 24, 1996, #1909 was not linked up to anything; it was still a single (with #1716 as the next car, also derailed but undamaged). The numbers in that range now belong to Livonia, and so the #3 and 42nd Street Shuttle. The nnn1, nnn5, nnn6 and nnn0 cars have for the most part been converted to full-width cabs, but since the #3 is still nine-cars, they haven't been made consecutive yet, i.e. linked into ten-car sets with their unit numbers in order like the rest of the R62 and R62A. And until the #3 line can handle ten-cars I don't see them doing this.
Wayne
Hello folks. Just a reminder that the Shore Line / Branford
Trolley museum will be hosting a volunteer open house
this Saturday, Apr 15, from about 12:30 - 3:30. Details are
available in the upcoming events section (thanks Dave P.)
We're waiting graciously for each of you to show up and see first hand the various departments of the Museum at work - track, shop, etc. Believe this, it's worth the trip. Be there, or be square!
-Stef
The "Open House" incl. free trolley rides down the line to EOT, end of track, where you can offer words of encouragement to members of the 3/4 tons crew playing the part of Gandy Dancers this weekend. Come back if a few weeks to see us go Ding Ding, i.e. playing the part of operator.
Seriously, if you want to see how we have F-U-N come on up, you may find you like the place !
As I said a few weeks ago, the BMT Standard & SIRT #388 will be out in the sun shine where you can get up close and personal with them. Inside one of the barns we'll have extra sand paper so you can obtain some of the red off our Red Bird. And inside the shop is a set of wheels that chief mechanic Ted is turning into a MOW car.
Mr t__:^)
And don't forget our Signal Deptartment, the might get that new signal setup, I hear the track gang might be doing some digging for the Signal Crew (they always have lights in their eyes) for a new ditch.
Ain't that the truth. I spent 2 hours on Saturday with the signal dept trying to roll out a new piece of cabling to be used in the new signal system our cohorts have ingeniuosly thought of. We had a great time in putting the wire away (not). The stuff was heavy!
-Stef
Hi Lou....we've been digging the ditch all day today and
another round tomorrow. By the time Saturday's open house
rolls around it should be done, and the backhoe is committed
for track that day.
So the Electricans get their hands dirty??
Bout time >GJust don't leave any bodies in the ditch.
I'd be honored to throw my back out for Branford, Jeff.
See ya Saturday.
Doug aka BMTman
AWW RATS, I was hoping to see you at that new trolley in Jersey
Andee
ANSWER WHAT MOVIE THE FOLLOWING LINE CAME FROM AND WIN AN UNNAMED PHOTO.
THE LINE GOES "WHATS WRONG DUDE AIN'T YOU NEVER SEEN A SUNSET BEFOE???"
LATER DUDES!!!!
Early scene from "The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3". Pimp speaking to Robert Shaw. Later, that same smart-ass gets hit in the mouth with a gun for saying, "Yeah, that's what they told us in Viet Nam and I still got my ass shot full of lead".
Even after that, right after power was restored, he had the gumption to ask, "Hey, dude, as long as you're going downtown, do you mind dropping me off at Fulton St?"
To which Hector Elizondo (Mr. Gray) replied, "You're a wise mother, you know that? How'd you like some more?"
Love the dialog in that movie. Every line is a classic
Can anyone tell me if the Transit Museum Stores have a T Shirt with the entire system on it? I just came back from Boston, and bought one with the MBTA system on it, to join my CTA, London Transport, and Washington Area MTA. Does anyone also know if any other system has T Shirts Maps.
I was told by the clerk at the museum store to try Canal Jeans on Broadway near Canal Street.
-Hank
Thanks, I have a real old one from the 70s and it is time to get a new one
Moscow. I've got one, thanks to my daughter's trip there in 1998. Unfortunately, their definition of an XL (the largest she could find - I normally wear a 2XL) is about the same as an American medium, so it resides in my drawer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm looking for a "Luciano Rules!" T-shirt in 2XL. I heard these were popular with the enemies of the BRT...
The same with my London
Does anyone know why when the 62's where combined all of the operators/conductors controls were removed preventing future use, but when the 62-A's where combined the were left ?
i just read this on rabid writer's website, which is accessible only to people connecting to the internet with an OBIT ( outer band individuated teletracer ) surveillance machine...
several witnesses to last night's derailment on the #5 line reported seeing several known subtalkers throwing a human form onto the tracks, which later proved to be a pair of pants and shirt stuffed with old subtalk postings of robert johnson and his endless predictions of subway derailments...
when asked why they had done it, they claimed that they had come to believe that the mta does indeed spend billions of dollars after a derailment, and that they hoped that their recently formed consulting firm of city planners and rapid transit experts would be given a lucrative contract to turn the franklin avenue shuttle into a 4 track operation with 4 different levels of track to accomodate the narrow right of way...
LOL!
;-)
yes I am vindicated
They'll need that when the north side of the Bridge closes. A four level tunnel, then a four level elevated, all with 150' platforms!
;-)
Yep, heypaul's baa-aaaa-aaack!!!!
wasn't there going to be a gathering of subtalkers on saturday the pre-opening day of the hudson bergen light rail in jersey?
It had been a thought but I won't be able to make it. If it had opened earlier, it would have been a possibility for me, but now someone else will have to run with the ball, so to speak.
-Dave
i going to try to be there someone want to set a meeting time and place
Where and when are "opening ceremonies" going to be held?
-- David
i would be interested in meeting up with other people from subtalk... i really don't know when or where things are going to happen...
I know of a couple of friends who plan to go, and are hopping for some opening day souvenirs. Also Peggy Darlington & I have had a couple of conversations about a "Field Trip" some weekday evening once normal operations have begun, maybe in May ... stay tuned to this Bat Channel
Mr t__:^)
Jodi and I will be going. I'll have 4 hands, so I'll have Digital Photos up ASAP, I'll have regular stills, and I'll have our Camcorder. I may get a tour of the maintainence facility, I don't know. I got an invite, but no info yet.
-Hank
I was planning on rearrainging my clip-on bow tie collection, but I'll try .I'll Need a time and place though! I've got live stock to tend and a sermon to prepare. Any fixed agenda or is it to be a free-for-all?Indoors or out?
hey avid reader... you're a man of peace... don't stir things up here mentioning a free for all... i for one am not going to stand near the edge of the platform with any other subtalkers around...
i almost forgot that you are a part time shepherd with a flock of sheep...
what will this week's sermon be? last week's sermon on the use of humor to achieve a state of grace was wonderful...( i have a feeling you might not be kidding about sermons... maybe that's the rhythmic note i have noticed )
If there is the slightest threat of inclement weather, I plan to get the flock out of there!
avid
You wouldn't happen to have one of those bowties with alternately flashing LEDs on it, would you?-)
Yes and it squirts water too!
avid
I suppose you also have a pen which writes over whipped cream, too?
(nyuk nyuk nyuk)
Wayne
subway-buff and I plan to be out at Exchange-Place somewhere around 1100 to 1130, when we get back from our little jaunt up to 116th Street and back. I'm the one with the black shoulder bag and tinted prescription glasses.
Wayne
I'll be on the first train, I'm riding in with press and NJT officials, see you on the plat if you come!!!!!
R142 Boi 2K
now if only i was not 3000 miles away !! especially those who insist all sports stadiums are not built at taxpayers
expense !!
By PETE DONOHUE, BILL EGBERT
and DAVE GOLDINER
Daily News Staff Writers
he first four cars of a packed Lexington Ave. express subway train derailed in a shower of sparks at the end of rush hour last night, stranding nearly 2,000 commuters for hours.
Straphangers jammed inside the uptown No. 5 train were jolted when the train hit a piece of broken track and derailed just north of 68th St. shortly after 7:30 p.m., authorities said. Nine of the more than 1,800 people aboard the train were treated for minor injuries.
Subway officials were investigating how the track broke and were scrambling to restore normal service last night, as passengers recalled a hellish 2 1/2-hour wait for help.
"It was scary; we were all frightened," said Clover Willis, 45, of the Bronx. "I was shaken up. Sparks were flying for about four minutes. It was frightening because we had nowhere to go."
For most commuters, fear was quickly replaced by fatigue and frustration.
"We were just standing for 2 1/2 hours," said Vesta Shabazz, 46. "It was really packed."
Eleven minutes before the train derailed, a worker reported a problem with the tracks, and drivers were warned to go slowly along the uptown express track between 59th St. and 86th St., sources said.
At least two other trains made it past without trouble. But apparently the No. 5 train hit a piece of broken track hard, the sources said.
"It was almost like we ran over somebody," said James Griffin, 32, of the Bronx. "It was just a sharp bump."
The lights never went out in the 10-car train, and passengers said everyone stayed calm. But the cars quickly became stifling, especially as smoke wafted in.
"People were succumbing to the heat, and a lot of people were getting nervous," said Emergency Service Officer Mick Hanson, one of the first rescuers on the scene. "These people were in a situation that they weren't quite sure of."
About an hour after the derailment, transit workers drove another train — known as a rescue train — to the back of the crippled No. 5 train. Passengers were ferried in two trips back to the 59th St. station because the 68th St. station has platforms only for local tracks.
Authorities, who were working to remove the nearly 1-million-pound train by this morning's rush hour, praised commuters for keeping calm.
"Every person on the train was a real New Yorker," said Richard Sheirer, director of the Office of Emergency Management. "Most of them just went upstairs to a local train and went home."
Some straphangers were just happy to be alive.
"I'm just grateful," said Marina Tokar, 21. "You never know what's going to happen."
Stockbroker Marge Peters said she had a worse day on Wall Street, where stocks plunged, than on the subway.
"After the way the market was going down today, this was a piece of cake," said Peters, 51, of the upper East Side.
It wasn't immediately clear when the track that broke was last inspected. As workers tried to clear the mess, express trains were shunted onto the local tracks.
The crowded East Side IRT line is the busiest in the city, with the Nos. 4, 5, and 6 trains carrying a combined 1.4 million passengers daily.
With Maki Becker and Richard Weir
Original Publication Date: 04/13/2000
I don't know the details, but I'm surprised that the rescue train couldn't come sooner. Could they have just turned a train at Bowling Green, and deadheaded up to the derailment, with one of those train-to-train bridges on it?
I dunno, some TA employee fill me in.
Dave
according to the NY Times the "rescue" train was the express behind the derailed train that was at 59th st. they discharged the passengers and rolled right up behind the derailed train
that makes sense, but I don't understand why it took a whole hour to do that.
There must have been a train backed up in every other block within minutes, and they all would have had to roll back to 42nd stree to go local.
I guess an hour is pretty good time then, all considered. I retract my previous statement.
I don't know the details, but I'm surprised that the rescue train couldn't come sooner. Could they have just turned a train at Bowling Green, and deadheaded up to the derailment, with one of those train-to-train bridges on it?
I dunno, some TA employee fill me in.
Dave
according to the NY Times the "rescue" train was the express behind the derailed train that was at 59th st. they discharged the passengers and rolled right up behind the derailed train
that makes sense, but I don't understand why it took a whole hour to do that.
There must have been a train backed up in every other block within minutes, and they all would have had to roll back to 42nd stree to go local.
I guess an hour is pretty good time then, all considered. I retract my previous statement.
rankie Rosado, 8, bounded off the No. 4 train on the high stilts above 161st St. in the Bronx, punching his mitt, two steps ahead of his dad.
Where would he be on Opening Day 10 years from now?
"Pitching," he declared, as the 4 train rumbled overhead. "Right here."
Frankie had gotten off one of those silver Japanese trains that first appeared, mirage-like, during the early 1980s. Maybe he'll be one of those few major league players who ride the subway to the ballpark, but it sure won't be on those same Japanese trains he took yesterday.
By the time Frankie is throwing for the Yankees, those cars will have run their last miles.
Yet we'll still be paying for them.
With breathtaking stealth, Gov. Pataki has come up with a transit financing scheme that will bury all our bills until this generation's politicians have faded into gravel. If this plan becomes law, the citizens of New York will be paying for Frankie's subway train long after it has been hauled to the scrap yard and melted into something new.
"I hope Frankie gets one of those big salary packages," said Gene Russianoff, the lawyer from the New York Public Interest Research Group.
Pataki, along with the state Legislature, is about to send a parcel bomb of debt into the future. It is the largest debt financing ever undertaken in the state — altogether, about $25 billion worth of borrowing.
Even groups that will make money from it, such as the General Contractors and the Building Congress, are objecting. So is Russianoff, best known for his work with the Straphangers Campaign; the International Transport Workers Union, led by Sonny Hall, and the coalition of business interests known as the New York City Partnership.
"The assets will be long gone before that financing has been paid off," said Robert Kiley, president of the Partnership and a former Metropolitan Transportation Authority chairman.
If you ran a household like this, it would mean that 10 years after you junked a car, you would still be paying back the bank loan.
The transit financing law is a hideously complicated bit of work, which makes it even more important to pay a few seconds of attention. The bill covering this gimmickry is more than 250 pages long and was produced in the usual Albany darkness that has made New York the most debt-ridden state in the country.
They are borrowing money to pay off existing bonds and spreading out the "new" debt over 30 years. The nice part for the public and politicians is that it cuts back some of the interest owed in the next few years. The grim truth — for the public, not for today's politicians — is that in exchange for a few balmy days now, spectacular amounts of debt are piled up, waiting to crush us in a future that is not that far off.
One demented result is that the public will be paying for thousands of subway cars and buses long after they've been scrapped.
"You end up spending operating dollars on a totally depleted asset," Kiley said.
The state leaders assure us this plan is a good thing: that we won't feel any costs in the next few years and will have enough money to replace equipment that gets old.
Interestingly, to help design the borrowing plan, the investment firm of Bear Stearns was hired as a consultant for the state and the MTA. Bear Stearns also is expected to seek the job of selling these bonds, for which it could earn $72 million in fees.
Not surprisingly, "The people who sell municipal bonds like this," noted Kiley.
Who doesn't?
"The head of the labor union that represents most transit workers. The head of the business community. The Building Congress, and General Contractors. The riders' groups," Russianoff said. "That should count for something."
Since the economy is booming, most states are trying to avoid adding to their debts. Not New York. Whether a Republican or Democrat is governor, in good times or not, colossal amounts of money are borrowed under shocking circumstances. The state has the second-worst credit rating in the country.
"This governor's legacy will be mountains of debt for future riders and New Yorkers," Russianoff said.
Weird. A million more people are using public transportation, every day, than three years ago. That is a spectacular result. The service has not kept up with the demand, and Russianoff worries that if so much money must be commanded to pay off old debts, it'll be impossible to provide enough seats on the buses and trains.
The governor and legislative leaders plan to shove all this stuff into law before the religious holidays begin in a few days. One of these people ought to have the guts to call time out and bring in an independent party — not Bear Stearns, which is hoping for a $72 million payoff — to decide if this is the best way to bankroll the transit systems for the city and suburbs.
"Right now, you don't even have the details of what black hole this is all going down," Kiley said.
Original Publication Date: 04/13/2000
Does anyone know why when the 62's where combined all of the operators/conductors controls were removed preventing future use, but when the 62-A's where combined the were left ?
Perhaps no one has gotten around to it as of yet. If they haven't done so already, they will. The linking program took time to complete. Whatever they don't do now will be done later. I'm sure they will because those parts are excess now and can be used as spares if need be.
-Stef
#1-9 line have been running the 5car units for the past year numerical order is what I mean
Can cars be unlinked?
With a little difficulty. Requires a trip to the shop to disconnect and re-install some equipment.
-Hank
Where do you choose to sit?
When the train is empty, 1/2 full?
In Mixed seating, longatudinal and lateral, your choice?
In lateral only, next to door(side) or stormdoor, or anywhere?
avid
Usually, on the 75 foot cars, I sit in the first car, next to window, right side, first set of forward-facing seats from the front. On Redbirds, R32, 38, 40, 42, 62 cars, I stand close to the end door of the first car, even if there are seats available.
Watch the musical chairs ,when the door seats become availible.
Window seat are a premium spot. Any seat with a vacant seat next to it.
Start watching. Far from homeless.
avid
i always try to get a seat where there is a wall of mirrored steel... like behind the motorman's compartment... this way i can make faces at myself and engage myself in interesting conversations... it also guarantees that no one will sit next to me...
on a somewhat similar seating topic... i am a very skinny guy... sometimes someone who is not all that heavy will sit next to me and take up a lot of space just from their being pushy... i have never done what i am going to suggest, partly because it is cruel... but when i am in this position, and there is someone who is quite overweight standing nearby, i have often been tempted to offer them my seat... it is cruel to do to the person standing, but quite fitting to do the person sitting next to me...
My turn.
On trains with longitude seats I always try for a forward facing window seat. I never sit on a rear facing seat as sitting backwards gets me dizzy, I would rather stand. On the LIRR M1-3's I usually try to sit at the seats by the doors, the ones that face each other.
I also have to admit that girl-watching definitely influences my choice of seats. I usually try to sit facing a pretty girl, this way I could stare without it looking like I'm staring. On the new tri-level LIRR trains I always go for the lower level and hope for girls in short skirts on the platform. (Your eye level on those cars are just about the same as the platform level)
sarge...your description reminds of jackie mason
when i am travelling with my wife on the subway, i don't like to sit too close to the doors or too far from a window... my wife likes to face this way and i like to sit that way... then after we finally find a seat... she notices that it's too noisy or too drafty where we are sitting...
your response to some people's reactions to the kids who got killed surfing on top of subway cars was right on the money... i guess you must see plenty of foolish ways that people destroy their lives... and i'm sure seeing it first hand gives you a very real sense of the horror of it all...
I always go for forward facing seats near center of 75' car. Next, window seats in other parts, then near the door at that wood-colored thing. On lateral seating, I go for near the door but in the pair of seats next to the cab. All the time. Maybe because the seat adjacent is usually the last to fill due to the slightly darker quality, the fact that the homeless usually use seats in this spot, or the fact that they will be right at the wall (more uncomfortable since you can lean but can't rest arm on something.)
Does anyone want to guess how long the 142's will be free of scratchee? I think that the first time it runs with a lot of school kids (or animals) will be the when it appears
I'm sick of this constant stereotyping.
Animals are very well behaved.
since the "" oink"" hides behind killfile remember this !!...... soon the R-142s windows will be all scratched up
just like the rest of the nyc subway car transverse car fleet..!!!!.......... this is a 100% gaurantee ...!!!!!!
You know, as hard as I try to avoid answering your inane posts, there are just some times when impulse takes over the good sense to ignore you. Are you trying to imply that only cars with transverse cabs get vandalized? If so you've been hit in the head too many times by a cab door.
no!!........... just that the scratchiti vandals will see a new unscratched subway car & etc.........etc.......( you know )...
chill out guy..... as far as a cab door hitting somebody i would not wish this on even you !!
We all know the scratchetti grafatti vandals will DROOL over an unsctatched up subway car !!!
They cant wait man .!! i saw this windows-scratched-up all over the HIPPOS & RINOS last time i was in new york !
even on R -38s !!..........REDBIRDS too !!..........it was a shame to see this on the # 7 flushing line !!.......
The Buses in los angeles and phoenix arizona are scratched up all over !!! ( and some other cities too )
dont think the r -142s will be any different ............... so take it easy chill out and dont have a cow .!
I think Sally's just been breathing in the fumes from his ancient smog-bomb car.
-Hank
your wifes name is sally ?? so you did take a cold shower and a cold beer !! now you are drunk !!....
remember hank it is aganst the law to drink and drive !!...( advice )
stereotyping ??.............. pigs are well behaved animals.......??.........!!...................!
so you dont use killfile !!
JUST STOP IT FOR CHRIST SAKE! In the words of Chris Rock, "LET IT SLIDE!"
R142 Boi 2K
yes sir!!..,,( was testing who was using killfile and who was not ).......thank you my brother !!
Yeah - for you. Happily ever after.
testing.............1.........2.............3...........!!!...........!
When compared to other animals or misbehaving children.
-Hank
They will but not for long. See the TA implemented a scratchitti battle plan which has been working for the longs with the buses, which is placing replacable plastic over the windows, once the plastics are scratched, the TA just peels that one and puts up a fresh one.
Just recently the TA has been placing the same plastics on subway cars, I've seen the plastics in place on two different sets of R33s on the 2 Line (Got one set on video), One Set of R68s on the D, One set of R44s, the R110Bs and both sets of R142s have the plastics.
So far i've seen this plan working because less and less buses have been scratched up lately. In a since, the scrathitti artist are getting tired of seeing their stuff erased so frequently that some have given up.
This is working quite well, so the little stereotypes made by SalaamAllah is not correct. Salaam, you'd have to be here to see it. It's nice!!!!
R142 Boi 2K
Just hope that they dont figure how to get the plastic off. On a bus with the bus driver present its harder to take a lot af time, but ina subway car with no operator or conductor ..............
Believe me it's not that easy to peel that plastic off, I tried on the Redbird set that had it, and I cut my index finger trying, the plastic never moved. The TA uses a special tool given to them to remove the plastic, it can not be done by hand, I sure as hell learned the hard way
Just like the special tool that scrolls roll signs? My screwdriver works fine. I'm telling you, they will find a way to make their tags known. If not by taking off the plastic, then by scratching the walls, ad plastic covers, that thing over the map, train exterior, seats, digital signs... They might also use stickers, markers, or old-fashoned spray paint to do the trick (it doesn't remove completely from white).
no two ways about it !! unless a undercover cop rides on every train and every car, in less then a few months..........
every 142 will be scrtatched up every single window every single car !!
This is an open invitation to our show. Many of you may already know about it,if so, this is just a reminder. Please see our web page for more details & photos. http://home.att.net/~sctransit/NYCMTA1.htm
Thanks, Steve
The New York City Model Transit Association &
Saint Augustine, HSA
Present
The 2000 NYC Model Trolley & Transit Show
It will take place on Saturday - June 3, 2000 from 9 am to 5 pm.
- with a set up day - Friday June 2 from 4 to 11 pm.
At -
St. Augustine of Canterbury School
45 Henderson Road
Kendall Park, NJ 08824
Suburban Transit's bus from the PA bus terminal to Princeton, stops 1/2 block from the school. Service every 1/2 hour. Use the Henderson Road stop.
Admission $10 (spouse & children free)
Dealers Tables $30 each + admission
Dealers attending will have video tapes, photos & slides, magazines, and books related to NYC & other metropolitan area transit systems.
For those interested in modeling the NYC transit system, there will be dealers & manufacturers with all sorts of subway & elevated cars, and streetcars. Many NEW NYC models will be introduced at this show.
Operating layouts will feature NYC related models in HO & O scale.
There will be door prizes & a model contest - as well as several "how to" clinics on modeling el structure & cars and model photography.
Contact - Steve Olsen
sctransit@worldnet.att.net
web page - http://home.att.net/~sctransit/NYCMTA1.htm
Glad to see a show closer to home instead of somewhere out in penns. seen the website a lot of neat stuff. This show is the same weekend as mopars at englishtown which is not to far so I'm down for the whole weekend
i am curious as to how the media treated the news of yesterdays derailment
Amazing how the mta needs 3 point 5 billion dollars to build a new subway 3 miles long and a 20000 mile network can be built for same money
By Nigel Hunt
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Telecommunications firm Aerie Networks, backed by big oil and gas pipeline companies seeking to turn their rights-of-way into part of the information superhighway, said on Wednesday it would build the largest capacity U.S. broadband network in a $3.5 billion project to offer high speed fiber optic communications.
Several pipeline companies have invested in privately held Aerie, providing rights of way for the 20,000-mile network that will take three years to complete.
Most people don't like to travel by pipeline though.
And pipes are MUCH narrower than the tubes needed for a subway. They can also be installed a mere 5' below the surface (depending on what they carry) where subway tunnels need to be at least as deep as the train is high, plus some.
-Hank
Also, the MTA will (had better) buld the fanciest, most amazing and awesome stations in the entire system on that line. I'm picturing mezzanines where you can see the trains below, like Roosevelt Island, and light-up platform edges for train arrival indication like in D.C. Arched ceilings, maybe have something that looks like a waterfall behind glass along the wall. Fancy lighting effects. Super-Bright tunnels, well-concealed express tracks so you can't see (and soundproofing so you can't hear) the trains you're missing. Variety of Island platforms and side platforms. Hich ceilings. Blue-ish tint to stations (PATH-like). Skylights at some stations. Fance station entrances. No dripping water! Especially not the kind that drips when it hasn't rained all day. Indcator boards at every station showing every train on the line exactly where it is. Express-Local transfer on 2 level station with island platforms and express on bottom. Glass elevators at all stops positioned so that you can see the track level from the elevator from high up.
Sorry for the tangent.
With that money they could collect no fare, build fountains, parquet floors, a professional pianist, crystal chandeliers, gold columns, a waiter service that brings coffee, tea, sandwiches and various desserts for the passengers delight. The trains would be made of full distance, a concierge would wake you up at your stop, you would platinum, the chairs would be made from corinthian leather, recline a get your own free headphones, a TV screen that plays movies, regular TV channels, cable, video games and the internet. In addition, during the PM rush, free massages would be given to patrons to ease their tention.
The station toilets would have spigots that stay open when one turns them and the doors on the stall doors would go all the way down to the floor.
On Fridays, a small chamber orchestra would replace the sole pianist at each station, and the menu would expand to include hors d'oeuvres, including foie gras, caviar (beluga and sevruga varieties), and truffles, not to mention a selection of fine wines, in the late evening, soup would be available for passengers on the longer trips, along with a tasty souffle. On Monday mornings, riders would be treated to their choice of cereal, eggs, bacon or sausage.
The tunnels would be brightly lit, adorned with fine murals and frescoes to please the eye as the trains pass through the tunnels. They would be supplemented with a variety of sculptures, paintings and tapestries towards the station ends.
While you wait at the station, your shoes would be cleaned and shined, which would also have the pleasant effect of maintaining cleanliness on the fine station floors, and the lush, well designed carpeting of the trains.
So as not to offend the sensibilities of the passengers, on the outdoor stretches, on viaducts constructed of marble, granite or limestone, where the train is to pass through the communities inhabited by the lumpen riff-raff, vast Potamkin villages would be built adjacent to the viaduct so that the dark truth of poverty would not mar the delightful comfort of the bourgeois service.
Each person would get a limousine to take them from the station to their home.
Remember, this would all be FREE. This is how much can be gotten with the money being flushed into the hole now.
BRAVO!
avid
". The trains would be made of full distance, a concierge would wake you up at your stop, you would platinum, the chairs would be made from corinthian leather, recline a get your own free headphones, a TV screen that plays movies..."
That was supposed to read:
". The trains would be made of platinum, the chairs would be made from corinthian leather and recline full distance. A concierge would wake you up at your stop, you would get your own free headphones, a TV screen that plays movies..."
Or at least I think that's how it was supposed to be.
[Also, the MTA will (had better) buld the fanciest, most amazing and awesome stations in the entire system on that line. I'm picturing mezzanines where you can see the trains below, like Roosevelt Island, and light-up platform edges for train arrival indication like in D.C. Arched ceilings, maybe have something that looks like a waterfall behind glass along the wall. Fancy lighting effects. Super-Bright tunnels, well-concealed express tracks so you can't see (and soundproofing so you can't hear) the trains you're missing. Variety of Island platforms and side platforms. Hich ceilings. Blue-ish tint to stations (PATH-like). Skylights at some stations. Fance station entrances. No dripping water! Especially not the kind that drips when it hasn't rained all day. Indcator boards at every station showing every train on the line exactly where it is. Express-Local transfer on 2 level station with island platforms and express on bottom. Glass elevators at all stops positioned so that you can see the track level from the elevator from high up.
Sorry for the tangent.]
Don't forget track doors. But they won't. They'll build an old fashioned, inadequate line with automation.
[Don't forget track doors. But they won't. They'll build an old fashioned, inadequate line with automation. ]
They tried track doors in St.Petersburg and later dropped the idea as it slowed down the trains.
Arti
[[Don't forget track doors. But they won't. They'll build an old fashioned, inadequate line with automation. ]
They tried track doors in St.Petersburg and later dropped the idea as it slowed down the trains.]
How long ago was that? The new line in London has them. With full automation (no slop, so the platform doors can be the same size as the train doors) they shouldn't slow things down at all. Advantages: less noise, steel dust, heated, air conditioned stations, ZPTO train operation, and most importantly, saved lives.
They stopped that on 1972. The doors were slightly larger than the train doors, but the slowdown was caused by the need to position the train very precisely i.e at slow speed. Even with aoutomation I'd imagine the positioning would have to be done slowly.
Another point is the cost of maintenance/reliability, what would happen if a door fails (imagine rush hour Lex)..
Another interesting note is that allegedly it cost about 25 % less to build (they call it horisontal lift (elevator)) this type of station. Of course let's not forget how Russian stations are finished...
Arti
[They stopped that on 1972. The doors were slightly larger than the train doors, but the slowdown was caused by the need to position the train very precisely i.e at slow speed. Even with aoutomation I'd imagine the positioning would have to be done slowly.
Another point is the cost of maintenance/reliability, what would happen if a door fails (imagine rush hour Lex)..
Another interesting note is that allegedly it cost about 25 % less to build (they call it horisontal lift (elevator)) this type of station. Of course let's not forget how Russian stations are finished... ]
The added maintenance would certainly be an expense, but it would be more than made up for by ZPTO and other economies/incentives. Fortunately, in a well-designed system with automation and AC motor control the positioning *doesn't* have to be done slowly; a train can follow an ideal deceleration profile for optimal speed, passenger comfort, efficiency, and maintenance costs (no flats on the wheels). Not sure I understand how the Russians saved money on their "vertical lift," though; seems to me the line should cost about the same (doors and train controllers more expensive, but much less labor needed for wiring since a few fiber cables can control the whole thing).
[Not sure I understand how the Russians saved money on their "vertical lift," though; seems to me the line should cost about the same ]
Look at their stations... Marble, chandliers... If yoy don't have to finish about half the station this way, here's the savings.
BTW, it looks like about right now they are switching to one person train operator (not including the conductors) no more motorman assistant required.
Arti
[ Look at their stations... Marble, chandliers... If yoy don't have to finish about half the station this way, here's the savings. ]
Exactly.
[ BTW, it looks like about right now they are switching to one person train operator (not including the conductors) no more motorman assistant required. ]
At least in the last 25 years there were no conductors whatsoever on Russian trains.
In Moscow, they started eliminating motorman assistants, I'd say, like 10 years ago. I don't think any are left by now.
In Kiev, there were assistants like 20 years ago, but there weren't any left 8-10 years ago. A propos, about the same time ago the last color signal was switched off there.
Do you know why did ther need motorman assistants, what I gather is they started eliminating them when they modified the trains to use electronic speed control.
Arti
[ Do you know why did ther need motorman assistants, what I gather is they started eliminating them when they modified the trains to use electronic speed control. ]
The assistant was much like the conductor here -- opening/closing the doors, with the motorman just driving the train. However, they sat/stood in the same (full-width) cabin, the motorman to the right, the assistant -- 95% of the platforms being island ones -- to the left. These days, the motorman does both things, often using station and/or train mounted mirrors to look down the train. I am not sure what, if any, were the technical grounds for eliminating the assistant.
[At least in the last 25 years there were no conductors whatsoever on Russian trains.
In Moscow, they started eliminating motorman assistants, I'd say, like 10 years ago. I don't think any are left by now.
In Kiev, there were assistants like 20 years ago, but there weren't any left 8-10 years ago. A propos, about the same time ago the last color signal was switched off.]
If this keeps up, we'll have to swap nicknames with Moscow--we can call them "New York on the Moscow River."
[ If this keeps up, we'll have to swap nicknames with Moscow--we can call them "New York on the Moscow River." ]
Well, if there is one thing in the ex-USSR that just rulezzz... that's the subway.
And there's more -- just cut me short if the topic isn't interesting... -- I've read more than once about what they nickname "Metro-2" in Moscow. A network of ~ 4 lines built by the KGB, centered on the Kremlin and running to places like the former Stalin's dacha, the military command posts, the governmental airport... The longest line is claimed to be about 70 km (that's what, 45 miles?) long!! I'm not sure how much of this is true of course, but I am sure the thing does exist. Places described as secret entrances to the stations, a gateway between the usual Metro and Metro-2, etc. do exist, at least, and there's also one place where two lines run in parallel one under the other -- which, unlike here, is totally uncommon for the ex-USSR -- the one at the lower level is said to be an ex-secret line which Comrade Stalin at some point decided he didn't need any longer...
I'd love to share a link, but unfortunately I've never seen any info about it in anything but Russian.
[Well, if there is one thing in the ex-USSR that just rulezzz... that's the subway.
And there's more -- just cut me short if the topic isn't interesting... -- I've read more than once about what they nickname "Metro-2" in Moscow. A network of ~ 4 lines built by the KGB, centered on the Kremlin and running to places like the former Stalin's dacha, the military command posts, the governmental airport... The longest line is claimed to be about 70 km (that's what, 45 miles?) long!! I'm not sure how much of this is true of course, but I am sure the thing does exist. Places described as secret entrances to the stations, a gateway between the usual Metro and Metro-2, etc. do exist, at least, and there's also one place where two lines run in parallel one under the other -- which, unlike here, is totally uncommon for the ex-USSR -- the one at the lower level is said to be an ex-secret line which Comrade Stalin at some point decided he didn't need any longer...
I'd love to share a link, but unfortunately I've never seen any info ]about it in anything but Russian.]
Actually, I did read something about it a while back. Don't remember where, though.
"I'd love to share a link, but unfortunately I've never seen any info about it in anything but Russian."
So? I'd love to translate.
Some links to Metro-2
http://www.intra.ru/metro/metro2/metro2.htm
http://www.metro.ru:8080/metro2/
Arti
What I've read it looks like there are just few short spurs off the main line.
Arti
[Look at their stations... Marble, chandliers... If yoy don't have to finish about half the station this way, here's the savings.
BTW, it looks like about right now they are switching to one person train operator (not including the conductors) no more motorman assistant required.]
LOL, I expect NYC will follow suit with OPTO just slightly after the Zambian subway has converted their matter transporters to Mark 2000 Superintelligent Quantum Computer control.
Paris's Line 14 (known during construction as Meteor) proves definitively that in automated operation with platform doors, stopping can be faster, not slower, than in manual operation without platform doors. This new line is a joy to ride, and very fast.
Unfortunately, the notion that platform doors save money on station construction is applicable only in St. Petersburg and other Russian cities, where the prevalent station design consists of a spacious central hall abutted by platform halls, fully enclosed except communicating passageways to the central hall. The savings comes from not having to build the platforms and, much more importantly, not having to finish the platform halls in the requisite grand imperial style with marble, granite, chrome, concealed lighting, bas-relief, etc. Among the few stations of this layout in the non-ex-USSR world, hardly any are expensively decorated.
The main rationale for platform doors is safety, and, although they were introduced first in low-volume operations such as VAL and airport systems, it seems logical that, by eliminating the danger associated with the platform edge, they should permit much better crowd flows than doorless platforms. Of course, for the blind the difference can be even more pronounced.
Singapore has station doors in all of its underground MRT stations (to save on A/C costs) and it doesn't seem to be a problem. Automated trains, normal stop, just the very end of the stop is slower so the train doors can align with the station doors. I think the tolerance is as much as 1/3 the width of the train door for a stop to be considered "successful".
--Mark
[I think the tolerance is as much as 1/3 the width of the train door for a stop to be considered "successful". ]
In "Leningrad" the doors were about the same width, maybe that was the issue, just a poor design. Another design objective was to protect from possible floods (St. Petersburg is built in a river delta and a swamp)
Happened lately.
Arti
Didn't they have something like station doors on the South Ferry station when the Bowling Green/S Ferry shuttle was still running. There were no doors but there were cut out openings which the motorman had to line up the train with. (By the way, HeyPaul, is the Bowling Green Station duckpin or conventional?)
Yes, the inner loop at South Ferry has slots for the doors, but only the middle ones of the R-12s that last used the line were able to open, due to the sharp angle of the curve that pulled the end doors away from the platform.
Didn't they have something like station doors on the South Ferry station when the Bowling Green/S Ferry shuttle was still running.
The SF inner loop has openings in the wall and the Lo-Vs used to stop with one if its doors at an opening. The reason the inner loop was built this way was not a safety or A/C savings issue, but because cutting a regular platform into the tunnel wall would have compromised the structural integrity of the tunnel, it being so close to New York Harbour in that area.
--Mark
Conventional.
I'm serious, Bowling Green was used for bowling (hence the name BOWLING Green).
Pigs is right. That's how Bowling Green got its name.
A stupid thing about Bowling Green station is the color of its walls; they're red. They should be green! I mean it's in the name of the station, green!
The station was done during the "we're off our medication" period of station rehab by the MTA. It came just after the cinder block tile disaster on the BMT Broadway/Fourth Ave. line, and was done in the style similar to the test station on the BMT at Seventh Ave. and 49th Street.
Well, Londoners do travel in tubes ....
--Mark
i am unable to find ANY messeges i have written. that includes my most recent 2 messeges using the search engine on this site
[i am unable to find ANY messeges i have written. that includes my most recent 2 messeges using the search engine on this site]
If you hit your browser's "back" button after posting your message, you won't see it unless you hit "reload" (at least in Netscape). If you use the "return to the index" link, you should be able to see your message.
I see my messages on the board but i am unable to find them doing a search
You're probably mis-spelling your handle.
Just did a search and came up w/ a handfull of posts over the past days from you.
-- David
If by "search engine" you mean the Glimpse search engine linked from the main site, it does not index SubTalk posts at all. Not yours or anyone else's.
As for the SubTalk "Search Messages" facility, it works just fine, although if the system is slow it may take a long time. I see 7 posts posted by you between Thursday morning at 9:41 am and now.
-Dave
p.s. be sure you didn't killfile yourself. :-)
The Port Authority has posted pictures, notes, and progress reports on the Airtrain project at the following web site: http://panynj.gov/airtrain/index.html
-Hank
I'm a bit confused by their renderings of "New" Jamaica station. I tought that station was a landmark, but the renderings show it overwhelmed by headache-inducing Airport Moderne architecture.
I'm confused too. It looks like they're going to redo the entire platform area - tracks 1-8. I hope not. Although Jamaica may not be the most aesthetically pleasing station around, it has a lot of history ( here's a postcard from around 1920 - possibly taken from the Jamaica El) and certainly shouldn't be transormed into something that looks like it might be from the Jetsons!
I thought the Airtrain station was just going to be an additional platform to the south of track 8, where the two bypass tracks are now.
I don't like Airport Modern, and I think Jamacia, as run down as it is, is a great station - it needs a rehab, not a replace.
Frankly, I think the new station is ugly - and lets face it, it's not going to go up without affecting LIRR service!!!!
Also - a huge canopy enclosing the station? Sounds great until you get a few diesels running into there.
I say we get a movement started to save the current Jamacia. A replacement will only look out of character, and make life for the average LIRR comuter miserable until it's built
Nice rendition of the R38's in the picture gallery! I wonder if they'll still be running on the A line then the thing is completed.
Something I never realized until looking at the site is that Airtrain will be predicted to cover its operating expenses with fare revenues. I had assumed all along that it would be receiving ongoing subsidies from that passenger facility charge.
I really hope that Airtrain does succeed, if for no other reason than that will silence all these voices-of-doom types who've been predicting failure.
[Something I never realized until looking at the site is that Airtrain will be predicted to cover its operating expenses with fare revenues. I had assumed all along that it would be receiving ongoing subsidies from that passenger facility charge.
I really hope that Airtrain does succeed, if for no other reason than that will silence all these voices-of-doom types who've been predicting failure.]
I'm afraid it will have the opposite effect. It doesn't go anywhere! People won't take the LIRR or the A from Manhattan just to transfer to the Airtrain, they'll take cabs, and most people from the suburbs will continue to drive. Most of the people who use it will be airport employees who can come in the LIRR, and nobody ever suggested that a $1.5 billion project could be justified by offering a convenience service to employees.
What an obscene waste of money--for what they're spending on that ridiculous Jamaica Station complex they could have extended it to Penn Station and made it useful.
No one will ever take it if they insist on charging transit passengers a $5 fee -- in order to subsidize those traveling around the airport or from the parking lot for free. What an outrage. I'll be the first to call for a boycott.
[No one will ever take it if they insist on charging transit passengers a $5 fee -- in order to subsidize those traveling around the airport or from the parking lot for free. What an outrage. I'll be the first to call for a boycott.]
Hardly necessary--as it is, it's going to be the biggest thing since the Train to the Plane.
To return the train to the plane (w/ no extra fare and ext. to Rockaways): $0
Beneficial Parties: S. Queens, Brooklyn, Manhattan, Queensbridge customers.
To build a new line from Jamaica to Airport: Many Billion
Beneficial Parties: Airport employees (L.I. residents could use the JFK flyer, even though it has low ridership. no-one from Jamaica or Queens will spend $5. They'd use the Q3,6,7,10. The NY Airport service charge is the same, and direct from several midtown locations).
The very word "Airtrain" makes me turn green and gag. However, in the spirit of open-mindedness, I did check out the site. I have returned with the same opinions: 1) the Airtrain as currently conceived and being built is a misguided project 2) the only way there can ever be a true one-seat ride to and from the Airport is to reopen the Rockaway LIRR ROW.
Wayne
All this is true Wayne, BUT at least we're actually going to get some new ROW laid down in NYC ! Maybe it can be made into something better AFTER it get built. Thanks to Hank for the link.
Mr t__:^)
[All this is true Wayne, BUT at least we're actually going to get some new ROW laid down in NYC ! Maybe it can be made into something better AFTER it get built. Thanks to Hank for the link.]
In case you missed it, the PA is looking for a private partner to extend Airtrain to Penn Station. If they bring it off it will be the salvation of the project.
You heard it here first, this will be the biggest white elephant in the history of mass transit!!!
Bigger than the Spruce Goose?
-Hank
What region are they claiming light rail compatibility with??
A replacement for the awful bus shuttles is desperately needed, but charging $5 to get from the airport subway station to the airport is just absurd. What's the value of feeling like you've entered the airport (as per their apparent architectural design criteria) if you haven't, and need to pay more to get there?
BTW, how would the potential one-seat ride I've been hearing about (from the EDC?) work, if Airtrain is going to terminate at right angles to the existing tracks at both Howard Beach and Jamaica?
[What region are they claiming light rail compatibility with??
A replacement for the awful bus shuttles is desperately needed, but charging $5 to get from the airport subway station to the airport is just absurd. What's the value of feeling like you've entered the airport (as per their apparent architectural design criteria) if you haven't, and need to pay more to get there?
BTW, how would the potential one-seat ride I've been hearing about (from the EDC?) work, if Airtrain is going to terminate at right angles to the existing tracks at both Howard Beach and Jamaica?]
Transfer to the subway should be free, with a $5 fee for the one stop ride.
I don't know whether they'll extend the track from Jamaica or use the Rockaway Branch for the one stop ride. Probably the former, because it makes less sense (and because they won't have to admit that they built a completely useless el and station at vast expense).
I am looking to buy any Lo-V sign plates that anyone has for sale. If anyone has any, please E-mail me.
There's a whole bunch of them up for bids on eBay right now. The item description begins with the words "ANCIENT N.Y.ELVATED SUBWAY SIGN"
Good luck.
and hands off the DYRE AVENUE sign - I want that one!!
It's ok.......I have one already :-)
-Mark
......And I only collect BMT stuff ;-)
Jim.
I thought you already had them all :)
--Mark
Say hello to Dennis Riga and his Teddy Bear Panda.
I don't speak to that mental midget anymore.
-Mark
To bad. His 12 car accidents are very amussing, especially when he fell asleep on the Belt Parkway.
I found a nice one at SLTM recently, but I am purchasing it for myself. It is a Third Avenue Through Express sign, and in great shape.
Third Avenu e Through Express Sign is not a Low V Sign. Its an M.U.D.C> Sign which is more rare.
Its been awhile since there has been some R142 news....is no news good news....testing going very well?? Can't wait to see these things in revenue service over the next few months :) -Nick
I just received a flyer from Images Replicas, the same folks who made those plastic kits for the R-17/21/22/26/28/29 cars.
Three-car sets of R-15 cars for $149.95, "May Availability".
(Now they didn't say May of what year, as they still haven't released their LIRR MP72 cars that were supposed to be out in "March", announced a few years ago.)
I too received a notice. Let's assume the R-15 will be released this year. On the N Scale Front, you may now model the R-32. Gosh darn it! It's in N Scale, not H0. I sure hope they come out with one in HO Scale.
If you do want an R-32, the N Scale Version will cost you a whopping $399.
-Stef
MTS Imports, last year, sold HO Scale R-32s in brass/nickel silver. He ran 100 sets of them and sold them all out. Expensive (nearly $600) but they're beautiful models!
--Mark
You may have noticed a few strange posts the past week or so, posted by "S.4skin" -- and also by "Mr. Blue".
Both these "handles" are one and the same person, a Sean Davies, of Los Angeles, California. (Notice how the "Source Code" shows 209.240.200.xxx for both "S.4skin" and "Mr. Blue". Posting from WebTV, eh, Mr. Davies?)
Sean Davies enjoyed engaging in deviated behavior, such as the post regarding working at MTA LI Bus, etc. In truth, Sean Davies is a lazy slob who does nothing but ride LACMTA buses all day long, pestering drivers (and passengers). He does NOT work a job. He lives off his parents. In fact, he got fired from a job with a bus company in the San Francisco area.
Most of the bus fans in California detest this person, for very good reasons. Another of his deviate doings was to try and con a well-known bus fan out of some scale models and slides, claiming to be an organizer for a historical society for a transit operator. The transit operator in question was notified of this event, as were other transit operating agencies in that area. They are all aware of Sean Davies' practices now!
In closing, I urge everyone here to beware of Sean Davies, a.k.a. "S.4skin", "Mr. Blue" and "Methanol1@webtv.net" as well as "RTD1978@webtv.net" He will try and con everyone he can out of whatever they have. This hobby does NOT need people like Sean Davies of Los Angeles, California.
please do not connect this person to me as i live in the los angeles county area !!
I wonder if Mr Davies is the one who posted that warning as the "exposer" does not feel secure enough to include his E-mail address.
Note to our Webmaster Dave, I know this might be drastic but maybe it is time to set further restrictions such as memberships. Obviously, the current ones aren't working as well as might have been hoped.
The nuts are still getting through.
Well the only next step is "hand approval", which I just do not have time for.
I'm not sure nuts are over-represented here, and opinons of nuttiness varies. The killfile option seems to do the trick.
Aren't we Bus/Subtalkers limited to one "handle"
How can this personae have more than one?
Multiple email addresses. Each handle is tied to an email address, if I understand Dave's approach. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, it's very easy to get multiple email addresses, from a variety of different providers. My New Jersey ISP allows me seven, my North Carolina ISP allows me six, and of course I've got one at the office - and then there's hotmail, yahoo, netscape, etc. I don't know how I'd even keep track of them all if I did have that many - one at each house plus the one at work is quite enough for me!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Question: Who, exactly, is Sean Davies' exposer?
although the source of this warning is uncertain, i was interested to hear that there might be a problem with this poster... i saw one of his posts yesterday on bustalk claiming to know everything... that statement combined with his choice of a handle caused my crapola alarms to go off...my alarm system may be overly sensitive, since it immediately goes off whenever someone professes total knowledge and displays an inability to be questioned...
>>my crapola alarms to go off...my alarm system may be overly >>sensitive, since it immediately goes off whenever someone professes >>total knowledge and displays an inability to be questioned...
If that's the criteria for setting off your alarm how could it tell you anything, it would be ringing 24 hours a day! Well unless somehow you have found a way to get away from yourself.
are you suggesting that i set my own alarms off with my own words?... most of the time i try to mix the pontificating with a strong measure of humor... when i don't i guess i am as full of it as others...
or are you suggesting that the alarms will be going off all the time, due to the high levels of ambient crap in the world?... there too, a sense of humor behind the b.s. usually warrants forgiveness...
back to the issue of things not appearing as they seem to be... i took a look at bustalk about 30 minutes ago... it seems that there is some nasty flaming going on between some outside people... my detectors tell me that there is help from some people here on the inside... take a look and see if there isn't a familiar ring to the nastiness...
I was hinting to the fact you profess total knowledge and display an inability to be questioned. Therefore you would set off your own alarm. My post was a lead in that intended you to reply saying how you were an exception and you calibrated your alarm not to detect your own crapola, etc. Maybe next time I should send you an e-mail so we can better co-ordinate our humorous aisdes.
mike--- it takes a lot of practice to get a 2 man comedy act down--- especially with me, since my coordination with other people is lousy---
by the way---have you rigged the ballots yet for the subtalk person of the year awards?---
Well I'm still making progress on the subtalk awards. I was underwhelmed by the amount of nom-nations so that put a little damber on things. When I compile all the nominations I do have I will either A) deside myself based on my observations or send ballotts to a few qualified people.
A bit of luck today. I went into the southbound F station at 23rd & Sixth Avenue. Signs offered a free Metrocard holder for using the MVM. I asked the friendly staff "instructor" whether Sacajawea dollars were being returned as change. "Yes." It saved me a trip to Wal-Mart in Uniondale. (The Sacajawea rolls delivered to Chase branches got taken as quickly as the Maryland quarters.) And a free Metrocard holder, also: a poem by Stephen Crane. The LIRR machines seems to be stocked only with Susan B's.
This makes me think about the dollar coin controversy. Supposedly, dollar coins have failed because people didn't want them. But people don't choose their change, businesses do. The ATMs spit out $20s, and when you spend them you get back what you get.
There aren't enough slots in the drawer for a dollar coin, but there are for a dollar bill. They should have eliminated the penny.
They should have eliminated the penny
Acoording to the United States Mint ("Makers of Fine New Money") every time they've proposed eliminating the penny, the feedback has been overwhelming negative. It is the most used coin.
[It is the most used coin]
But "used" for what? You can't actually buy anything for a penny anymore. (Of course many of us can remember when bubble gum and candy actually did cost a penny! :-)
These days, pennies are only used to give change for items whose price is not divisible by a nickel.
To keep this on topic - Remember when you could buy a 2-piece box of Chicklets from the machines on the subway platforms for a penny? They have one of these machines on display at the Transit Museum Annex at Grand Central (station? terminal?)
Officialy Grand Central is a Terminal, there are little old GCT symbols some places..look for them! Grand Central STATION is the name of the Post Office facility there...
This is my pet peeve. The building on 45 and Lex is Grand Central Station - the post office. The building on 42 and Park is Grand Central Terminal - the train terminal. If I ask a cabbie to take me to Gentral Central, I hope it is not to the Parkway.
Grand Central Station, for trains, was in Chicago. You can get away with calling the subway station Grand Central Station.
(Acoording to the United States Mint ("Makers of Fine New Money") every time they've proposed eliminating the penny, the feedback has been overwhelming negative).
Anytime you proposed to change anything, the feedback is overwhelmingly negative -- because overwhelmingly negative people are the ones who feedback. But if you had a random poll of both nasties and normals, and asked "Would you be willing to get rid of the penny, and have purchases rounded off to the nickel, if it saved the government X million dollars (I forget the figure) per year?" My guess is the question gets 70 percent yes.
(Acoording to the United States Mint ("Makers of Fine New Money") every time they've proposed eliminating the penny, the feedback has been overwhelming negative).
Anytime you proposed to change anything, the feedback is overwhelmingly negative -- because overwhelmingly negative people are the ones who feedback. But if you had a random poll of both nasties and normals, and asked "Would you be willing to get rid of the penny, and have purchases rounded off to the nickel, if it saved the government X million dollars (I forget the figure) per year?" My guess is the question gets 70 percent yes.
If it saved the government X million dollars a year?
I think everyone believes that with the penny gone, everything will get rounded up.
The elimination of the penny would not mean that items could not be priced in cents, only that in case purchases the final bill has to be rounded off. Heck, you could price things in mills if you want to, as gas stations do ie. 1.599.
Since the dime is worth what a penny was worth in 1940, I'd say the dime is a good candidate for the lowest denomination coin. I'm tired of having to haul 20 pounds of brass into the federal reserve every couple of years.
[The elimination of the penny would not mean that items could not be priced in cents, only that in case purchases the final bill has to be rounded off.]
And we know in which direction the rounding would occur :-(
.02 or less down .03 or more up
The penny is also the coin you will most likely see on the ground and no one will pick up.
Hey, I've got more than $15 in pennys saved so far this year, don't tell me they're worthless!
-HAnk
Bring them into your bank, for heavens sake!!!
its much too time consuming to put them into those little rolls.. but i do suppose that if the penny was eliminated withing 25 years the nickel will be the piece of crap that noone picks up from the ground..
And then the nickel would be eliminated, so what?
By then we can recreate the one cent piece by diving the currency by ten, inflation would warrant it, and it WOULD NOT hamper international trade.
I do that once or twice a year. When the jug fills up, I roll the pennies up (by hand). I do it when I'm sick, when I'm unable to sleep, or just when I feel like it. Doesn't bother me in the least. Besides, how is counting 50 pennies for a 50c roll different from 50 dimes for a $5 roll? Everyone bitches about counting pennines, but hey, you've got to count everything else, too!
-Hank
Or..how about those change machines they have now in supermarkets?
Back to the title on this thead.
Yesterday I bought a FunPass at WTC, and got a SacaBuck change from my $5. A few minutes later I gave it to a bellman as a tip at the Marriott WTC, and he not only had never seen one, but he didn't know the type existed!
Did the same thing the first week in March - I got a Sacajawacky along with a couple of Susies from a Post Office vending machine and gave it to a coat check attendant. Took her a minute to figure it out too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If I get any SBA dollars from a vending machine, they usually wind up in the collection basket in church.
In my area, they are 7.5 to 8 cents per dollar. Since I have the time to roll them, I don't bother. If I ahd a deep park bottle full of pennies, however, I'd be at that machine as soon as I could lift the bottle.
-Hank
There are plenty of slots. The majority of cash registers I have worked (those with molded trays, not adjustable ones) have five slots for bills (100/50, 20, 10, 5, 1) and five for coins ($1/.50/foreign, .25, .10, .10, .05, .01)
That argument holds no water. As for eliminating the penny, that'll just result in the states raising sales taxes to a 'round' number, and businesses rounding up prices. The extra penny on those $x.99 prices can cost you up to $500 a year, depending on what you buy. It also will screw up those business that don't use modern cash registers, and will make it somewhat easier to 'cook the books'.
-Hank
Back when I was actively involved in the hobby business, we used an ancient cash register with a "Canadian" drawer that the founder had picked up at some point in his travels. It had six slots for paper - an extra-wide one that came all the way to the front of the drawer for credit-card slips, hundreds, and fifties, and five of normal depth and width for twenties, tens, fives, twos (common in Canada at that time) and ones. There were five slots in the coin section, lining up exactly with the five regular-sized bill slots, for slugs and other miscellaneous stuff (we used it for the keys to the Coke machine and any odd coins that came our way), quarters, dimes, nickels, and pennies (this was back before Canada had larger coins, at least in general circulation). That layout worked well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Was it an old NCR register, by any chance? We used old NCR relics when I worked at an amusement park selling gate admissions. Those suckers were built to last.
Yes, it IS - the shop is still using it, cranking it by hand since the motor burned out about ten years ago. Heavy enough and unwieldy enough that we don't have to worry about anyone trying to carry it out of the store, like they've done a couple of times next door with the modern electronic register.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't laugh - three old NCR registers were stolen from that amusement park on the last day of the season once. No money was in them at the time. You're right about them being heavy. Then again, all of the internal parts appeared to be made of steel. The park owner managed to find a few other registers in storage the following year, and let me check them out. One was a Remington which was even heavier than the NCRs.
We now have Maryland Quarters??? What are they like?
Cool thing about living in MD is we are the 7th to get a quarter!
They are like the first six new quarters, but looks like Philadelphia!
avid
The art work is the state capital dome, with words "The Old Line State"
Mr t__:^)
What do you think should be the design for NY's quarter in 2 years ? The Statue of Liberty? The Empire State? The precedent has basically been set where it SHOULD be something historical in nature....Brooklyn Bridge? Remember its got to look good on the back of a coin... An IRT kiosk would look nice.....
Most of the landmarks you mention are NYC landmarks, and represent NYC characteristics -- immigrants, mass transit, bridges for a city of islands.
You need a landmark that represents the entire state, and there is only one -- the Erie Canal. The canal made NYC the great city that it is, and Upstate the rich and dynamic place that it was.
True, but I think the leading candidate is the Statue of Liberty.
Mr t__:^)
Don't they have these designs allready finalized?
Arti
The jury's still out on the Colorado quarter, as it isn't due to be out for another few years. A lot of people want to have the Rocky Mountains depicted; others prefer the columbine, which is the official state flower.
New Jersey might argue that it's theirs.
A politician throwing small slips of paper with a vertical line through a capital S into a toilet marked East Side Alternatives Study and pulling the flushing handle.
The same thing except the john is marked Public Health.
A picture of a group of baboons, altough some would think it's the City Council that's being depicted (when the State Legislature really is).
The issuance of these dollar coins from MVM and other machines not withstanding, at this depot volume is about double what it was a year ago, but that's still not a enormous amount. I won't say the number becaue I don't want to encourage guys with guns & masks to show up at the money room door.
Mr t__:^)
Sorry for an location error in my first message. The MVM dispensing Sacajawea dollars in change was at 14th & Sixth, not 23rd. The receipt says address N512.
In the Eastbound TVM at Mineola I got 6 Sacajaweas and 1 Susan B. (1980) dollar coins.
A few posters were asking about MTH's Subway car models, so here are my observations:
There are three different versions available: One is a four-car set with a "Protosound" electronic sound and motor control unit; another four-car set has a standard electronic reverse unit; and a two-car, non-motorized version is available. I bought all three....
It should be noted that these models are NOT to scale! Several years ago, MTH released both an R-21 set (to be re-released in redbird colors) and an R42 Set (identical to the sets I have, except with blue stripes and the "M" logo). Apparently, to save money on tooling, both are identical in size and use most of the same components. In other words, the R-42 is scaled as an IRT car! To the untrained eye, they look just fine; but subway buffs will notice the scaled-down, narrower doors and windows.
There are a number of other scaling errors: The front windows are set a bit too high, and the headlight bezels are a bit too small. There are no pantograph gates or chains. The "MTA" logo does not say "New York City Subway" next to it.
Three different types of couplers are used: An electronically-controlled coupler, used only on the front of the Protosound-equipped locomotive; a coupler that works with decoupler track (and is oversized), to be found on all other front ends of married pairs, and a shorter, "dummy" coupler that links the blind end of the married pairs. (I replaced all of the first two types with the dummy coupler to create a more realistic clearance between cars.)
The body style appears to have been taken from the GOH version of the R-42, with smaller windows on the doors. This style, ironically, was used with the "blue stripe" version, too. All cars are marked as "E" trains. (The older version was a "D".) The cars have interior ceiling lights, which also shine through the head/tail lights. There is no motorman's cab enclosure. The "E" destination sign on the front is a decal mounted on a clear plastic window. (There are also windshield wipers molded into BOTH front windows!) The interior, painted silver, has seats and poles, but not much else. The locomotives have their interiors blocked out.
The Protosound features are really cool! Using a standard bell button, or an insulated track section, you can make the Protosound train stop at a station, and then take off after a 30-second assortment of station sounds. Included are screeching brakes, footsteps, noisy kids, a Brooklyn-accented conductor ("Please stand cleah of the daws"), and an R-44/R-46/R-62/R-68 "ding-dong".
I purchased multiple sets with the idea that I would put together a 10-car train. I later found out that the Protosound and Non-Protosound locomotives won't work in the same train, and nobody has been able to explain a way of daisy-chaining the motor units. I tried configurations of both eight and nine cars (using the dummy car from the non-Protosound unit) and discovered that the locomotive can't pull much more than 8 cars(including itself). The front wheels of the locomotive want to de-rail, and the neoprene traction tires have trouble gripping the track if too much weight is involved.
Despite the these limitations, The set is a great TOY train set. As a child, my Lionel trains were my favorite toy; I always longed for O-gauge Lionel subway cars. Up until MTH made these models available, subway modellers were limited to expensive scale models in O, HO, or N gauge.
I have added some custom modifications to make the cars look a bit more realistic: I painted the rubber door strips and thresholds black; blacked out the area around the big "E" destination sign on the car fronts; added rust and grime to the trucks and underbody, and am grafting pantographs and chains (custom-made) and dummy WABCO H2-C couplers to the first and last car. It is not practical, unfortunately, to add chains and pantographs to the middle of the train, because the way the trucks and couplers are mounted. (These trains are designed to work on the tight curves of an O-27 radius track.)
Very thorough report, Moving Platform.
I have a set of the MTH R-42's. They are a two-car add-on set in the original TA color scheme (my favorite -- silver w/blue stripe).
I argree that there are many inaccuracies with the models (mostly in the area of scale), but in lieu of the fact that the alternatives are costly brass models, I for one am not about to complain.
I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of the O gauge Redbirds later this year! BRING 'EM ON!!
Doug aka BMTman
I, along with others in the New York Model Transit Association (Joe Frank, Nate Gerstein et.al.) have been working closely with MTH to assure that the R-21 project results in a "close to scale" car. Although these will still be "toy trains", MTH is very serious about trying to make these as authentic as possible. They will feature the latest version of Protosounds and will be very similar in operation to the previous NYCTA releases. The folks in Columbia, MD CARE ABOUT US SUBWAY FANS and should be commended for their efforts. Please buy many, many sets. If these cars are a sucess, I know that MTH will produce follow-on NYCTA projects in the future. The R-21's are scheduled for a November delivery, but this may slip sightly, as MTH tries to make these cars as prototypical as toy train manufacturing allows.
Also, Joe Frank is producing O-Scale R-33 (World's Fair) cars that will be capable of being powered by Q-Car trucks and drives or possibly adaptable to the MTH chassis. These will be available later this year also. Please attend the NYC Model Transit Show (see Steve Olson's post for details) to learn more about these great new models!
Allied Model Transit will be announcing many new O-scale models also at this show, including R-1/9's!!! It is a great time for subway modelers. Hope to see everyone there!
I have one set of the R-42 E (with add-ons) and one set of the 'D' with add-ons and now eagerly await the arrival of my R-21s. I bought my first set of MTH Subway cars with the idea of simply displaying them but was so impressed by the way they operated, I dismantled my 20+ year old N scale RR and am currently building an O scale empire 14 X 30 (my wife lost her 10 feet in our basement when the N trains were replaced by O)My original E set has been replaced by the proto-sound version & is slated for E-bay (6 car trains = nearly 7 feet long and I don't need a 10 car train)
As to the critics among us that say the R-42 are IRT scale, I say "So what." O gauge has always meant some trade-offs. That's one reason why they are called toy trains instead of model RR. However, I have had a greater sense of pleasure watching my D train run in a temporary oval then watching my herky-jerky N scale empire.
[As to the critics among us that say the R-42 are IRT scale, I say "So what." O gauge has always meant some trade-offs. That's one reason why they are called toy trains instead of model RR. However, I have had a greater sense of pleasure watching my D train run in a temporary oval then watching my herky-jerky N scale empire.]
Good points, Train Dude.
Aside from the scale inaccuracies already mentioned, the only thing I could take MTH to task for is the decal markings of the "E" train line on last years' issue of the R-42s in the GOH color-scheme. The R-42's don't run on the "E".
MTH could easily have researched and found that the cars run almost exclusively as "L", "J" or "M" trains. (I'm sure they'll be some modelers who will go and attempt to re-decal the cars for accurate line markings.)
Doug aka BMTman
Have either of you ,doug or Dude considered swapping all of the pouplers to get a closer effect.
What I mean is to replace the long couplers with the short, just to see a tighter train.
current set up
LL------ss------LLLL------ss------LLLL------ss------LL
LL------ss------ss------ss------ll
If you borrow some short couplers from the "D" or "E" you can get a long consist with a tight clearence.
Am I making sense?
The R/21s look nice ,i can wait to get mine and paint them yellow with black stripes , Some flat cars and a 44 ton diesel.
Or maybe just put bars on the windows and renumber 720R 721R
avid
The numbers on the work motor (revenue) pairs are the same. The difference is the prefix such as 1R723 coupled to 0R723. I'd love to see them when you are finished.
I know what you mean about the shorter couplers but I'm not sure that it would be worth all the extra work to convert them.
Good point Train-Dude! You should really like the '21s as they will not only operate great, but will be near scale as well! 14' X 30' sounds big. Are you planning any subway or elevated sections?
One of the main attractions of O GUAGE equipment, as opposed to HO or other smaller scale equipment is the RELIABILITY of the former. Today, there is a very large movement in the hobby toward "Hi-Rail", where you combine the reliability and flexibility of three-rail track with the scenic realism of scale. The new MTH R-21's will go a long way toward that end for those wishing to pursue this end of the hobby. Enjoy!!
My layout is just in the conceptual stages as I am just building the framework. My subway line will consist of 1 or 2 double-track out and back lines with a continuous loop for operation when the grand-kids come to play. It will be interwoven with some class 1 operation. I have 1 PRR doodlebug w/1 dummy and a pair of K-line PRR Interurbans. I will also operate at least one NYC train & maybe even 1 New Haven to keep it regional. Trackwork is all gargraves and Ross Custom. My N gauge collection (including about 60 Kaydee freight cars) has more than financed this new venture.
Talk about forgiving inaccuracies, when I was a little shaver, I used to insist my lionel RDCs were subway cars on my lionel trestle set. the subways were my prototypes. What does a kid from the Metro area know from Santa Fe or Union Pacific?
avid
For those interested in REAL tinplate (of the retro-1930's variety) the folks in Miami who bought the old Louis Marx and Co. tooling have produced an elevated train set. Two models are available, an R-15 and a CTA 6000. See them at marxtrains.com
They are patterend after the old Louis Marx 6" train line, and are made of lithographed tin. They are in no way scale models but facsimiles of 1930s era toys (and are not cheap either!).
I personally collect Marx, Lionel, and Flyer, but I have no interest in reproductions, just antiques. But their set is a nice offering for the diehard collector market. Worth a look.
I've seen them and compared to the MTH Subway cars, they look like garbage. Especially at a list price of over $300. My first impression was, "Where's the key to wind them up?"
I just took a look at those R-15 tinplate models -- WHAT A JOKE! They're worst than toy trains. They're an abomination and total distortion of the real thing. (looks like one of those Japanese tin-toy exaggerations of American cars & trucks that I had when growing up).
And what's with the motorized car having ONE TRUCK and the wacky headlight?!!
Bizarre!!!
Doug aka BMTman
AMEN !!!!
HA HA,WHAT A JOKE those Marx Trains R15's are A real joke HA HA.
When I was a kid that Marx Junk sold at train meets for $5 a bushel.
If you look at the MTH tinplate in the catalogs, it's hard to imagine that people would pay all that money for such primitive looking toys.
Does this have anything to do with the funny Marx brothers?
What about the OTHER Marx brother, the unfunny Karl?
No.
Nor does it have anything to do with the other brother, X Marx, as in "X Marks the spot." ;-)
Louis Marx was the toymaker, probably no relation to the Marx Brothers or deluded economist Karl Marx.
Anyone know where they'll be?
-Hank
I just looked at www.nj.com/forums
Then go to transit forum.
Someone explained that service may have started at noon today (Friday)and that ceremonies are planned for Saturday noon at many of the stations of Hudson Light Rail stations (Exchange Place, Liberty, West Side, MLK, West Side Ave, etc.). But I urge you to see the posting yourself. The NJ transit forum is not as busy as this one, but it contains interesting items and discussions. Friday's Jersey Journal is said to have a special pull-out section on the light rail. It makes me want to check out the Penn Station newsstands today. (I'm in Nassau County, where light rail disappeared before WW II.) Best wishes.
To answer Hank's questions more directly.
Ribbon cutting is at Liberty State Park station at 10 AM. NJT says the first train will run after ceremonies are over, around 11. Special inaugural service goes until 6.
On Sunday, service runs from 6 to midnight.
Normal service starts Monday, from 5:30 AM to 1 AM (or so) every day.
Michael
Just picked up today's Jersey Journal...
"Tomorrow at 10 a.m., Gov. Christie Whitman will arrive at the Liberty State Park Station aboard a sleek, white light rail train to meet state and local dignitaries and cut the ribbon on the $1.1 billion system."
"Service for fare-paying riders begins tomorrow at noon."
"Tomorrow's festivities are as follows:"
"At the Liberty State Park and Ride: Musical entertainment will be provided by the Fins, July July Band, Sentimeiento Andino as well as wandering entertainment, inflatable rides, food and craft vendors, raffles and information tables."
"At the Exchange Place Station: The JC Penny Show, actors of the Passion Play, the Jay Z Band, wandering entertainment, Sesame Place characters, food vendors, raffles and information tables."
"At the Martin Luther King Station: gospel singers and a rhythm and blues band, food vendors, raffles and information tables."
"At the Richard Street Station: Musical entertainment, a bake sale, vendors and appearences by Metrostar players."
"At both the West Side Avenue Station in Jersey City and 45th Street Station in Bayonne: Wandering entertainment and food vendors."
"At 34th Street Station: Remote radio broadcasts, clowns, face painting, local dance entertainment and food Vendors."
"-Alberto Canal"
Note From The Webmaster:
To Get There: Exchange Place HBLR station is adjacent to the Exchange Place Path Station; Liberty State Park station is at Exit 14C of the New Jersey Turnpike.
I was at the ceremony and it was fantastivc and i have never seen so many people adn there were even a few MTA employees. This was the biggest celebration i ahve ever seen like one long block party
It was a really great event. Orderly crowds, although not as large as expected. TONS of free-bees, including refreshments. I even got interviewed, and misquoted, by the Jersey Journal. (It hit he stands Monday.)Quite a hoot.
J Caronetti
It was a really great event. Orderly crowds, although not as large as expected. TONS of free-bees, including refreshments. I even got interviewed, and misquoted, by the Jersey Journal. (It hit the stands Monday.)Quite a hoot.
J Caronetti
I for a split second was on tv when they showed on of the trains dparted Liberty state park an ride and i wa rflected on the window i got two of the tee shirts one for me and one for onr of my friends
[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==][==D==]-[==D==]-[==D=
=]-[==D==]
[==Q=]-[==Q=]-[==Q=]-[==Q=][==Q=]-[==Q=]-[==Q=]-[==Q
=]-[==Q=]-[==Q=]
[==Q=]-[==Q=]-[==Q=]-[==Q=][==Q=]-[==Q=]-[==Q=]-[==Q
=]-[==Q=]-[==Q=]
[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==][==D==]-[==D==]-[==D=
=]-[==D==]
heypaul, shouldn't it be:
[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==][==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]
/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\
/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\/==Q==\
[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==][==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]
[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D
==]-[==D==]
/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-
/==Q=][=Q==\
/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-
/==Q=][=Q==\
[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D
==]-[==D==]
Even more accurate. Thanks
Seems to be moving a little too fast for NYC subways.
This one is more realistic:
[==D======][======D==][==D======][======D==][==D======][======D==][==D======][======D==]
/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\
/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\/===Q===\
[==D======][======D==][==D======][======D==][==D======][======D==][==D======][======D==]
R-40s are only slanted at one end.
Silly me:
[==D======]-[======D==]-[==D======]-[======D==]-[==D======]-[======D==]-[==D======]-[======D==]
/===Q===]-[===Q===\-/===Q===]-[===Q===\-/===Q===]-[===Q===\-/===Q===]-[===Q===\-/===Q===]-[===Q===\
/===Q===]-[===Q===\-/===Q===]-[===Q===\-/===Q===]-[===Q===\-/===Q===]-[===Q===\-/===Q===]-[===Q===\
[==D======]-[======D==]-[==D======]-[======D==]-[==D======]-[======D==]-[==D======]-[======D==]
Okay, now make one of the Q's switch to the local track.
Ya gotta love it!
It is for a certain fleet of cars, anyway.:-)
Another Correction:
[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]
/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\
/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\
[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]-[==D==]
Trains run single-file, not with parts of the cars next to other cars on the same train.
i don't follow you... the scrolling trains on both
my post and your post come across the same to me on
webtv... are you saying that on my post the train is
not a continuous 8 or 10 car train?...
while i'm here, i think i was unfair in showing the
r-142's as not moving... they do move under the
right conditions
[low-v]------------------------------[r142]-[r-142]-[r142]-[r-142]-[r142]-[r-142]-[r142]-[r-142]
Yes. it's not coming out on a PC as a continuous train.
For example, I saw 8 R-40 slants on one line, then 2 more on the next line, like this:
/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-/==Q=][=Q==\-
/==Q=][=Q==\
I analyzed the HTML code on the page and saw < BR > tags
on all the lines between the < marquee > and < /marquee > tags. If that's not what you typed in, it is most likely something wrong with the WebTV.
[6301]-[6302]-[6303]-[6304]-[6305]-[6306]-[6307]-[6308]-[6309]-[6310]
Gee, I wonder what a train of R-10s would look like - with A signs, of course.
A blur most likely. Of course loud sounds would have to be attached to it to make it realistic.
Yes, the R-10s certainly thundered along, especially at 81st St. and CPW on the A. Back then, the noise level was tolerable. It got worse during their final years.
????????.....................................!!!!!!!!!!........................!
Check this out:
In the morning, Manhattan towards the left.
[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[=7==]-[==7=]
[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[=7==]-[==7=]
[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[=7==]-[==7=]
In the evening, Manhattan towards the left.
[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[=7==]-[==7=]
[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[=7==]-[==7=]
[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[=7==]-[==7=]
On the weekends:
[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[=7==]-[==7=]
[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[==7=]-[=7==]-[=7==]-[==7=]
i like that... i wonder if there is any way to insert cross-overs and have an occasional reroute...
the other project, which at the moment i don't have the energy to do is to do an eight track simulation of west 4th street
*Please* don't do an eight-track simulation -- 8-tracks died out with disco (yeah, bad joke), and I'm getting cross-eyed with all these train simulations.
:-)
Funny you should mention 8-tracks. My uncle, who suddenly passed away last week, had a bunch of them along with an 8-track player. Guess who he named as the recipient of them? Right. Guess I'll be busy dubbing them onto cassettes for a while...
Now, can you imagime if the S. 4th St. junction had been built? Good luck trying to simulate train movements through that maze!
How did they manage to run the "Super Express" to and from the 1964-65 World's Fair?
I guess the ran past 61st Street and Junction Boulevard, but that's only a guess. The 64-65 World's Fair was before my time.
The World's Fair super express made even fewer stops than today's 7 express does. It ran out to the fair after the morning rush hour, then to Manhattan during evenings after the PM rush hour. It left no doubt as to where it was going, either: its Queens bound end was signed up as 7/World's Fair on the bulkhead route curtain and World's Fair on the destination side, and all of its upper side route signs proclaimed, World's Fair.
I was under the impression that it ran express both ways at the same time. It made all three stops in Manhattan and then stopped only at Willets Point Blvd. and Main Street.
Excellent! Now how about 2 track operation on the Second Avenue line:
[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]
[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-
36]-[r-36]-[r-36]
[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-
36]-[r-36]-[r-36]
[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r1 42]-[r142]
LOL
MORE CORRECT:
[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]
[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]
[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]-[r-36]
[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r142]-[r1 42]-[r142]
why is that more correct?? you have express service heading north on both express tracks... is this to increase capacity during the pm rush?
Then the trains are dismantled at the northern terminal and the parts are trucked to the south end of the line, and put back together into trains heading north again.
;-)
The directions are wrong
Everything else is right.
i originally used red to denote the redbirds not direction... but that's okay...
you know what would be interesting maybe on the brighton line... get some audio of a train travelling with really bad flat wheels and put that audio sound on continuous play...
This incident perpitrated by Mr.Steve Hoskins against me
Methanol1@webtv.net is tottaly unfounded.
Yes I am who he claims I am but Ihave no idea what all the
hubub is about his charachter "S.4skin" is all about.
He seems to know quite a bit about me personally although
I have never talked to him nor met this person.
I am here to talk transit and for some reason this person
has found it in his best interests to defame my charachter
for no apparent reason.
If anyone has any further serious comments about this
iresponsable incident feel free to give me a buzz.
This person has also used my name and email to post on
message boards that defy description or no good reason.
Thank you all.
M1
I have no idea what his reasons for this act of computer
Piracy is all about but all that it does is bing this
collected interest down to a level that is tottaly lacking
reason.
Last night I was on a Jamica bound F I noticed between 63rd Dr and 67th Ave the is what looks to be room for a turn off. there is no track layed. the wall next to the local track verves off to the right. I know its not the planed connection to far rockaway I've seen that just past Roosevelt Ave.
It's the Winfreid spur that was planned to hook into the LIRR tracks when they branch off at Whitepot.
The Winfield spur was planned to branch off the IND Queens Blvd. line from the upper Roosevelt Ave. platform. The turnouts that are described here are not for this proposed line.
Those turnouts would have provided access to the Winfield Spur for trains originating in Queens. While there would have been a terminal at Roosevelt Ave., through service to Manhattan was also proposed. One of the local stations between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt Ave. still has a "To Jamaica and Rockaways" sign tiled on one of its walls.
I saw the turnoff just past roosevelt and the room to make Woodhaven into an Exp stop but this is another turn off betewwn 63 and 67
Yes, but I've seen a proposed track map for the Winfield Spur, and it branches off the Queens Blvd line at Roosevelt Ave, runs a weird route around Cavalry Cemetary, then joins the LIRR Montaulk Branch, which then would have merged into the Rockaway Beach line. I have no idea what the turnouts described were for.
Picture in you minds eye....
MTH R1/9 and or the "D" type articulates similar to the quality of the Lionel Lackawanna or Penns MU's
Some in New origional paint, some in years of charcoal tunnel dust crud.
Salavate NOW!
avid
Standards woud be nice .
Just a reminder, because the third Friday is the NY Division normal show, it is also Good Friday. Therefore the NY Division is TONIGHT 14 April. If you are reading this after 10 PM 14 April, There is no meeting next week (21 April).
I'm going to be looking for subway cars so I can record their doorbells. I'm looking for strange sounding doorbells, sick doorbells, etc. Which cars have the strangest doorbells?
Your bounty lies in Chicago, my friend. The CTA's new doors-closing chimes sound like one of those church bells that has been replaced by a badly out-of-tune loudspeaker system.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Brussels:
The door chimes sound like car horns, only the pitch of these seems to vary slightly from doorway to doorway, so when the doors close, it sounds just like sitting in a traffic jam. [I'm sure you wern't planning to travel this far, just thought you might be interested.]
Correction:
I'm going to be looking for subway cars in the New York City area so I can record their doorbells.
The worst ones are the following:
R68 #2658 (on the "D")
R46 #6119
R46 #5927 (strange pitch)
R46 #5610
R46 #6022-6023-6025-6024 - ONE of them (not sure which) is SOUR!
R46 live on the "F", "G" and "R" lines, occasionally on the "E".
Wayne
Should we be worried that you are keeping a list of (or worse yet, have actually memorized), which cars on the NYC subway system have mutant door chimes? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Nice Roman Numeral 4 train. One problem: real #4 trains run from Woodlawn to Utica Avenue. Dyre-Bowling Green is the 5 line.
Wayne keeps very meticulous records of car numbers and anything uniquely associated with them. So if he spots a car with an unusual-sounding door chime, for instance, he'll make a note of it.
Not really; I'm currently working on memorizing a list of R32s with Mushy Floors. Newest addition to the list: #3612-3613. I've already taken care of (most of) the Sourbells.
Wayne :o>
Sourbells - that's pretty good. A surefire way to drive anyone with absolute pitch nuts. Now you know why I tell other musicians they're better off without it.
It seems all of the door chime sour notes I've heard were all on R-46s.
What causes the doorbells to get sick (or go sour as many put it)?
How strange is 5927's door chime? We'll have to make it a point to ride on, or at least listen to some of those R-46s this fall. I'll just have to hope my fillings will hold out.:-)
#5927's door chime isn't a sour note - rather, it's two completely different notes - "A" above High C followed by "F" above High C. And the timbre is different, a colder, more metallic sound. Very much like the two guitar notes so prominent in "Stand or Fall" by The Fixx (ca.1983). So I refer to #5927 as the "Stand Or Fall" car. The other cars in the bunch appear to have the correct tones.
Wayne
The standard door chime tones are also the same as the intonation notes used to open "No Reply" by Boston's Society State Decontrol. Ok, now that's obscure. It is also the last two tones of NBC (TV/radio).
I used to note which R10's by car number on the C and G lines that had PA's that screeched uncontrollably, so I would know which car not to ride on. (example: "This*garble*n "G" SCREEEEEEEEEEECHHHHH pk pk ContinenCREEEEEEEEEEEE, next stopppkkccccccrrrrSSCCCCCEEEEEEEEEEEEE*clunk*"). One "announcement" knocked the pick out of one guy's hair.
Wayne, I ride the R/N every Weds & Fri a stretch, and yeah, I've been noticing the mooshy floors on the R32's. You'll find some on the R40's/R42's on the L too. See ya at Bedford Ave.
The R10's did not get mooshey floors, the concrete would get broken up after the scrap skells ripped up the brass inlays.
IIRC, the R-10s got their PA systems late in their careers, after they left the A line. At least I don't ever remember hearing any announcements on any A trains of R-10s. I can think of one announcement which would be very appropriate for those cars: "Watch the closing doors". Without a doubt, the R-10s had the fastest doors in all of New York.
Haven't noticed mushy floors on any of the Slants; perhaps it's an R42 problem only, or, perhaps an R40M problem. Anyway, it's kind of unsettling, walking along and feeling the floor of the car give underfoot. I can just picture myself putting a foot through it and winding up sitting on the centre casting!
The PA's on the R10 were retrofits, and not good ones either. They put "squawk boxes" on the ceilings and hooked them up to some kind of mouthpiece somewhere. The only question I have is how did the conductor (who was out there on the platform between the cars) make the announcement?
Wayne
If the PA system on the R-10s was anything like the one on R-4 484 at the Transit Museum, the PA mikes were above the trigger boxes or very close to them. I saw this at the museum last fall. I have a photo in which I'm assuming the position between 100 and 484, before they locked the storm doors - bummer - but I can't make out the PA mike on 484. It's there, though.
Hmmmm. A and F juxtaposed on E and C. Sounds like parallel fourths to me. I presume you're referring to third-space C on the treble staff, in which case that A would be A-880.
The trains at Denver International Airport have different door melodies for each direction of travel. One of them includes a snippet from the Virginia Reel.
Our LRVs give off a series of beep-beep-beeps as their doors close which are pitched at F# above the treble staff - third leger line.
There is an R-62a on the 6 with a really odd door chime. It is comprised of about 10 different tones, none repeating, and in no particular order. The whole sound lasts as long as a normal door chime.
On many R-46 cars you will only hear the first tone (not the second), sometimes only the second(not the first).
On R-46 car 5873, and I assume the whole set, every so often, when the conductor tries to use the PA, sometimes you will either hear nothing or hear the combination of both door chime tones! Be patient, it will occur at random. You should not hear the conductor at any time in that car.
Path car 880 has D.C. style door chimes. A few other cars have door chimes with a lower pitch (similar to Philadelphia subway's Broad Street line, but the paging sound, not door close). To identify the lower pitch ones go to 33rd street and listen when they close the doors on the discharge side. You will hear an odd one in the bunch and be able to find it without missing the train.
LIRR C-3 cars 4001 and a few others with numbers in the first 20 have barely audible, horrendous sounding door chimes. You can tell that they once sounded normal.
Metro-North Shoreliner II and III cars have door chimes that sound like the alert when the fries are done at McDonalds. These trains are on the Poughkeepsie line and many trains stop at Marble Hill (225th on the 1/9). Hourly departures from GCT just before the hour. To Identify: Cars have center doors.
NJT Comet IV cars have and interesting variation of the subway door closing chime. Also, the automated station announcement voice is almost identical to R-110B's voice. Usually on MidTown Direct and many North Jersey Coast line trains. 1 or 2 trains in rotation on N.E. Corridor. To Identify: Cars have digital signs on outside similar to R-142 side signs. Side is not ridged like R-32. Car has center doors. Interior color scheme is pink and white walls with blue seats. Bathroom has blue walls. Digital sign inside in same style as R-142 side signs. If the train has a non-comet IV cab car, or interior digital sign only says NJ Transit and does not alternate with anything else, no automated stop announcement. I recommend riding to NY on them since the last stop announcement is very long.
Did you hear the R-142 paging sound? I heard it once while the testing crew instructed people to step back since they were leaning on it at Phelham Pkway. It was similar to the LIRR C-3 paging sound.
Just stand on the platform when a train of R-46s closes its doors. Sometimes it's enough to rattle your fillings. OI VAY!!!
THAT'S OY VEY
Or better yet, OY GEVALT.
W_a_y_n_e :oo>
I stand corrected. It conveys the same message, anyway.
Barring any unforseen disasters, I'll be moving to Boston the weekend of May 27th. The studio apartment on Commonwealth Avenue that I mentioned in an earlier posting didn't work out, but I found a group of roommates not far away with a room for rent. The apartment actually sits just on the Boston side of the city limits between Boston and Brookline, although the mailing address is officially Brookline. Although I won't be able to look out my window and see Green Line LRV's passing by, it's actually somewhat better of a location transit-wise; the apartment is about equidistant to either the B or C Green Lines (no more than a 5-10 minute walk to either), and not far from the D line as well.
(FYI, my e-mail address and website URL should remain unchanged after the move, since I own the domain name.)
Wish me luck...
-- David
Chicago, IL (soon to be Boston, MA)
Welcome to the northeast. If you head east and hit some water, its an ocean. If you head west and the land goes up, that's a mountain. If you see a bunch of crops growing outside of town, that's a museum. Otherwise, you should feel at home.
Sorry to see you leave Chi-town but ir you must Boston is not a bad place to be.
Sorry to see you leave Chi-town but if you must Boston is not a bad place to be.
you'll do just fine living right near brooklyn... once you settle in, i'm sure you'll explore gerittsen beach... start practicing pronouncing haaahvard... seriously, david, best of luck in boston... i'm sure you'll have a lot of fun and find a lot of good opportunities...
>>>>you'll do just fine living right near brooklyn.<<<
That's BrookLINE not Brooklyn!
www.forgotten-ny.com
...and saying Bahston.
Good luck trying to pahk your cahr, if you own one.:-)
Congratulations, David... welcome to Boston.
I guess you'll have to work up some Boston roll-signs or LED displays
for your site.
Chicago, NY and Boston all use Helvetica as the main font in signage.
Actually I'd like to see something really adventurous in signage. Futura, maybe...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The Chicago Transit Authority used the Futura font for signs on the rapid transit starting in the fifties. The switch to Helvetica was under the regime of the late George Krambles. Krambles wanted Helvetica to be a universal transportation font (transit, railroads, and airlines). To a great extent that has come about. While Helvetica is indeed a handsome font, at this point I think it is overdone.
Helvetica Medium RULES
>>>Helvetica Medium RULES <<<
Literally. It's much too ubiquitous. I like Gill, but it's completely identified with the London Underground.
But sincne NYC is the country's capital of publishing...design...and typography, why not commission someone to come up with a new font that would be indentified solely with the MTA? I think they did exactly that in London with Gill, which then began to be used in books and magazines after that.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I guess you'll have to work up some Boston roll-signs or LED displays for your site.
Hmmm... Where to begin, where to begin? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I was thinking something more like "Scollay Square"
Silverliner turn Loop, would be nice
Well you're going from one city rich in transit lore to another...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Welcome to Boston, David! I'll be out of Brookline by the time you get there, but I should be in Cambridge for the summer, and then in Milton (near mattapan) after that. We'll have to do lunch!
You may have been to the Bronx and saw the house that Ruth built; now you can go to Kenmore Square and see the house that Ruth cursed! LOL -Nick
Welcome to Boston, David
Thanks for the encouraging words Nick, Todd, Heypaul, and everybody else. I wish I had gotten this sort of a welcome when I moved to Chicago seven years ago, but then, few people had even heard of the Internet at that time. Amazing how things change.
The folks here on SubTalk have been a huge factor in de-bunking any stereotypes I may have had about Bostonians being rude and insular. I appreciate that. (For those of you who haven't offered any encouraging words yet, I know who you are and I know where you live.)
You may have been to the Bronx and saw the house that Ruth built; now you can go to Kenmore Square and see the house that Ruth cursed! LOL -Nick
At least for this summer, anyway. After that, Wrigley Field will remain as the last of a dying breed of classic ballparks in the major leagues. Truly unfortunate that these teams insist on destroying their greatest assets in the name of a higher profit margin.
Regardless, it looks like I'll have to bury my Yankees hat before I arrive in town. But even so, I think it's pretty safe to say that my heart will always be at the corner of Clark and Addison in Chicago.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Boston is a great city, I was there for one day last summer. We had gone to Cape Cod and foolishly booked a hotel in Provincetown for two nights, forcing us to be stuck at the end of the cape, we didn't find anything particularly interesting. We decided to make the trip worthwile by spending the last day in Boston (with a stop in Plymouth). We did ride the T, I purposely set up the tour I gave myself and my parents so it would require the T.
I also set it up so it would require the Green line specifically, we did ride some blue.
At least for this summer, anyway. After that, Wrigley Field will remain as the last of a dying breed of classic ballparks in the
major leagues. Truly unfortunate that these teams insist on destroying their greatest assets in the name of a higher profit margin.
It will still be a few more years until the New Fenway is built. It will be ashame to lose the old park, but it is slowly deteriorating. The new ballpark will still have the green monster, the manual scoreboard, and the unique angles...somehow :)
Regardless, it looks like I'll have to bury my Yankees hat before I arrive in town.
I understand if you are a chicago fan now, but you don't have to bury that Yankees hat. I wear it, and sure...I get dirty looks and wise comments...but hey...it's all apart of the game! -Nick
This was the name of an article that Brian Cudahy wrote in
Rail Classics.
I'm looking for this issue.
Yet, I don't know what issue it appears in.
Please advise.
Thanks to all
"Baghdad On The Subway" was IMHO a label given by William Sidney Porter, known to the world as O Henry.
It's your opinion?
Don't you mean IIRC?
Anyone going to the new light rail opening tommorow? Where will we meet? Anyone know? No offcial meeting?
Everyone for themselves?
i hope to meet up with andee... he's checking on times... also if avid reader can find a temporary shepherd for his flock, i hope to meet up with him... i would like to discuss with him a joint venture for surreal subtalk...
I'll be there
Does anybody know when and where operations will start? The NJT website only talks about Sunday.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Read back about 15 posts. The "HBLR Opening Day FACTS" post is very informative and I regret that I won't be around to see it.
I'm trying to find a page that gives info on how to get
aroound the nyc subways but can't find it. I'm want to
get to 53rd and Lex. I'm coming from NJ so I'll be taking
the PATH any help will be appreciated.
Just take an uptown "F" train from 34th St. to the Lexington ave stop.
That'll put you within 3 blocks.
Peace,
Andee
No, that'll actually put you THERE. Not within three blocks.
I think he meant three blocks VERTICALLY...dag, that station is DEEP!
It isn't THAT deep.
Of course, if he gets on the front end of the train, he'll be at 3rd Ave. when he gets off.
Thats why I said within 3 blocks, depending on which end of the train he was at.
Peace,
Andee
or path to WTC and E train to LEX. Av. back of the train would be Lex and 53rd
The easiest transfer is taking PATH to 23rd St., getting off and going to the exit. When you come up from the first stairway, you'll be on the platform for the F train, which you can take to 53rd and Lex.
You can also transfer to the F at 14th or 34th St., but 23rd is the least complicated of the three transfer points.
The uptown PATH station at 23rd St. is closed for renovations for 6 weeks. Downtown is open.
Peace,
Andee
The New York Subway Finder is the website you're looking for. It's linked from the Transfer Station->New York Transit-Related Websites page of this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
go http://www.subwaynavigator.com.
There was a discussion here recently about a woman who sued the Transit Authority for providing inadequate security, after an armed robbery on a J train at 121st Street in which the woman's young child was threatened. Well, there's some good news in today's Times. An ex-con named Lemar Jackson, of St. Albans, Queens* has been charged in that robbery (and is suspected in others). He was busted after being chased by police at the Church Avenue station on the D line. The cops figured out something was amiss, as Jackson ran onto the tracks to avoid them even though at the time he was sought only for a chain-snatching. Now, the bad news is that Jackson's bond was set only at $100,000, which means that Mom and Dad probably have bailed him out already.
* = isn't St. Albans an upscale area? If so, it seems like an odd place for Jackson to be from.
St Albans is far from up scale
The Addisleigh Park area of St. Albans is definitely upscale.
Wayne
St. Albans WAS an upscale area. There's plenty of riff-raff there nowadays that might even rival Far Rockaway's notorious reputation.
Don't be fooled by St. Albans' large frame houses and tree-lined streets. They have a serious crime problem over there.
Doug aka BMTman
The police figured that had more than a chainsnatcher when Mr (I use tie term loosely) Jackson tried to escape by jumping under a train and holding onto the bottom of it!
Maybe he saw "The Money Train" too many times!
--Mark
I visited the Subway Tech page at this site and noticed that the signal pages are available in French as well as English.
I just put those up... if anyone wants to volunteer to translate them (or anything else) into Spanish or some other language, let me know!
[I just put those up... if anyone wants to volunteer to translate them (or anything else) into Spanish or some other language, let me know!]
Altavista has a free online translation service, but it's still very much a work in progress :-)
[Altavista has a free online translation service, but it's still very much a work in progress ]
I tried it to translate some German rail related sites, it was quite funny. The translation engine has no idea about railroad terminology.
Arti
Babelfish is good for short non-technical words and phrases, and I suppose it's good for people trying to learn. Back when Bernard told me a French translation of the Signal pages was on its way, I used it to translate the first two paragraphs of Mark Feinman's History of the IND, and then I cleaned it up, rewriting in some places... If anyone is a fluent French speaker, how did we do?
Samedi, le 10 septembre, 1932 a marqué une étape importante dans l'évolution continue du souterrain de New York City. Sans fanfare, ou 'importe quelle cérémonie principale de ville, l'Indépendante a Ville-Possédé le Chemin de Fer Rapide de Passage ("the Independent City Owned Rapid Transit Railroad") (connu comme l'Indépendant) ouvert à minuit. L'homme qui a mis l'idée entière dans le mouvement, ancien maire John F. Hylan, n'était pas même dans le bureau pour le voir. Son successeur, Jimmy Walker, démissionné juste une semaine avant le IND s'est ouvert pour des affaires en raison des frais de la corruption. Le maire actuel, Joseph McKee, était indisponible. Il était durent, grande, principale expansion du souterrain à ce jour, et l'événement a disparu relativement inaperçu par le gouvernement de ville. Cet article décrit l'histoire du Souterrain Indépendant en jours d'exécution privée et de la Division de IND après l'unification en 1940.
Naissance de l'Indépendant
Autour du temps l'Indépendant a été conçu la première fois, en 1920, là était surchargement grave sur les souterrains. Ils étaient des victimes de leur propre succès. Le mot "unification" était très politiquement correct pendant ce temps. L'idée derrière l'unification était de faire racheter la part la ville de New-York en privé possédé De l'Interborough Compagnie Rapide du Passage ("Interborough Rapid Transit", IRT) et de Brooklyn-Manhattan Compagnie du Passage ("Brooklyn Manhattan Transit", BMT). Le 25 avril, 1921, la Commission de passage de New York a été formée pour développer un plan pour résoudre le surchargement et retarde sur les lignes actuelles de n'importe quelle façon qu'il a vu l'ajustement, y compris "reprendre" les lignes existantes du souterrain rapide en privé possédé de passage et des lignes élevées.
Fluency I cannot claim, so I'll leave the judgement of proper idiomatic phraseology and the fine points of grammar to those who are. But I certainly was able to understand it, and would have likely been able to do so even without a basic familiarity with the topic.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Gee, it sounds so ... so ... romantic!
Viva la France!
--Mark
This translation is awful ! It is very hard to follow. We get the general idea, but that's all. Someone not familiar with the story could not really understand. Don't do that ever again ! But the signal page translation is good (I only read the first paragraph of the link).
There is a much better translator than AltaVista's Babelfish at Yupi.com.
Go to www.yupi.com/traductor. The Yupi translations of longer passages are much better than those at Babelfish. The Yupi "traductor" seems to grasp the need for the subjunctive mood in Spanish and Italian sentences that the Babelfish translator frequenly misses.
Also, the Yupi translator allows you to go from any of its languages to any other, while the Babelfish translator requires you to translate either from or into English.
While it is very neat that AltaVista named their translator in tribute to the "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", if Ford Prefect had had the AltaVista version of Babelfish, he never would have made it to Earth to rescue Arthur Dent in the first place!
Ferdinand Cesarano
If you really want to have a laugh, use AltaVista to translate something from english into italian and then back into english. A work in progress is putting it mildly.
Oggetto: www.nycsubway.org va francese?
Inviato da Dan su Fri aprile 14 17:19:13 2000, in risposta ai Re: www.nycsubway.org va francese?, inviato da Peter Rosa su Fri aprile 14 15:07:20 2000
Se realmente desiderate avere una risata, usare AltaVista per tradurre qualcosa dall' inglese in italiano ed allora nuovamente dentro l' inglese. Un lavoro in progresso sta mettendolo leggermente.
BECOMES:
Object: www.nycsubway.org it goes French?
Envoy from Dan on Fri April 14 17:19:13 2000, in answer to the King: www.nycsubway.org he goes French, envoy from Peter Rosa on Fri April 14 15:07:20 2000
If really wished to have risata one, to use AltaVista in order translate then something from English in Italian and newly within English. A job in progress is mettendolo leggermente.
My goodness! They really mangled up Dan's post!
Using the AltaVista translator, between the original English to the following languages, then back to English:
• Portuguese
• Spanish
• German
• Italian
• French
To Portuguese
Meu goodness! Mangled realmente acima do borne de Dan!
Back to English
Mine goodness! Mangled really above of the post of Dan!
To Spanish
Mi calidad! Realmente mangled encima del poste de Dan!
Back to English
My quality! Mangled upon the post of really Gives!
To German
Meine Güte! Sie mangled wirklich herauf Pfosten Dan!
Back to English
My quality! It mangled really up post Dan!
To Italian
La mia qualità! Realmente mangled sull' alberino di Dan!
Back to English
My quality! Really mangled on the starter shaft of Dan!
To French
Ma qualité! Ils mangled vraiment vers le haut du poteau de Dan!
Back to English
My quality! They mangled really to the top of the post of daN!
Strange...
Another strange thing: They have Russian to English, but not English to Russian.
ROTFLMAO.
ROTFLMAO ? what language is that?????
Chinese.
ROTFLMAO
Rim shot!
It stands for Rolling On The Floor Laughing My Ass Off.
Back to English
My quality! Really mangled on the starter shaft of Dan!
Careful ... this is a family site :)
Another strange thing: They have Russian to English, but not English to Russian.
Nyet!! (That's short in Russian for "not yet" :)
--Mark
TransiTALK has it's own domain now.
Please access TransiTALK via it's new URL at:
http://www.transitalk.com
Thanks
R142 Boi 2K
I will be pursing a career in Train operations soon(preferably driving the Train). I was wondering what u Railfans opinions on you would u want to call u for a Job as an LE or MM? I am stuck between LIRR, because of their lines, MNRR because of their new P42 series and the Subway because of the vast amount of lines. I was wondering if any of you can help me with this infomation, please Email me. Don't post a message. Please email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com I like all three rail companies, but I have 14 months to decide whos the best to go for. I would like anyone who can help me. This is forever buggin me. I am forever unsure, Until I get an answer from the wise Railfans of this website. Thank you.
Just a reminder that on Saturday at eight P.M. EST, there will be another Subtalk Chat at Metrocard.cjb.net!
Go to metrocard.cjb.net and then click on 'Metrocard Chat'
or
just go to www.chat.cjb.net/metrocard
When your there PLEASE type in:
/nick yourname
We had a lot of guest last time who couldn't ID themsleves last time (Guest7201 comes to mind)
So, please join us on Saturday for the 2nd Subtalk Chat!!
sorry to heypaul for steeling his title :-)
For those of you who can't run Java or don't want to (understandable), you can access this chat using a regular IRC client like IRC II for Unix or MIRC for Windows. The server is javairc.mircx.com and the channel name is #metrocard.
-Dave
p.s. see you at next week's chat.
has any one set a meeting time and place yet. if so where and when
Those with Macintoshes who want to use a standard IRC client too, look for either Snak or IRCle.
Those with Vaxes running VMS, try to find VaxIRC or IRCDough :)
www.efnet.net has clients for other operating systems, though they may be *very* out of date
Due to campus movie schedules I will be watching The Wedding Singer from 7:30 to 9:15 and Chinatown from 10 PM to 12:10. However I will try to slip into the chat between those 2 films.
Hello all,
I won't have access to the web for the next few days (but I'll have lots of goodies when I get back). So any emails sent or problems you have with handle/passwords, etc. will be handled upon my return.
Please, be civilized in my absence :)
-Dave
have a good trip
i'll keep an eye on things... i'll see to it everyone behaves-- :>)
G-d help us, we're in trouble now! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If anyone misbehaves they will be sent straight to Columbus Circle IND station to clean the underside of the entrance canopy :o>
wayne
This is where having a time machine would come in handy. You could send them back to Sept. 11, 1973 and put them on a certain F train. Let's just leave it at that.
EWWWWWW! We'll make sure they have a nice spot near the #2 end of the first car (#1277), right at Ground Zero. CHUNKS! :o>
Wayne
I don't think I ever asked this, but were the fans on in that car on that day? Or were the windows or storm doors at least open to dissipate the heat?
I'm laughing as I write this, only because it's a classic, well-written story.
Please, be civilized in my absence :)
Trust us. [Evil grin.]
CH. }:-)
Have a pleasant journey!
For those of you who aren't following the stock market, it is crashing back to reality. Transit connection? As part of the recent contract, transit workers are no longer required to contribute to their pensions, but this is expected to cost the MTA nothing. Why? Because stocks are permanently higher!
While I prefer this pension raid, which benefits today's underpaid workers, to the kind Carl McCall proposes for all public employees in New York -- an automatic cost of living increase for those lucky SOBs who cashed in over-generous Tier I pensions years ago -- the effect is the same. More pension contributions, service cuts, wage cuts, higher fares.
The MTA will be saddled with the results of a debt-ridden capital plan and this pension raid for years to come. I only hope the drop comes soon enough to prevent similar pension raids in other agencies.
It's not true that NYCT employees no longer have to contribute, but as of 12/15/00, our contribution will be reduced from 5.3% of our gross pay to 2%.
As I said, the pension deal the TWU got was not bad in itself. It's the older workers who really raped us and moved to Florida, and new workers have been subsidized. It is the assumption that this cost nothing because the stock market was high. That's absurd.
Is it a defined benefit plan or a defined contribution plan. If the latter, the reduction in contributions by the participants will cost the TA nothing. The benefits will simply decrease.
(Is it a defined benefit plan or a defined contribution plan. If the latter, the reduction in contributions by the participants will cost the TA nothing. The benefits will simply decrease).
All public employee pension plans in NY are defined benefit plans. The entire risk is on the public, and the pensions are guaranteed by the NYS constitution. Moreover, in the powerful unions you get to retire will full benefits after 20 years, perhaps drawing a pension for 40 years afterwards. In NYC, this is balanced by low pay, thus insuring an inability to recruit competent employees.
This is one of one thousand little scams that reduce the quality of life in our fair city.
[All public employee pension plans in NY are defined benefit plans. The entire risk is on the public, and the pensions are guaranteed by the NYS constitution. Moreover, in the powerful unions you get
to retire will full benefits after 20 years, perhaps drawing a pension for 40 years afterwards. In NYC, this is balanced by low pay, thus insuring an inability to recruit competent employees.]
[sound of trumpets]
Municipal bankruptcy to the rescue!!!
If the city files for bankruptcy, it might well be able to get out of these ridiculous pension obligations, leaving the federal government to pick up the tab. While that means that taxpayer money will still be required, of course, the burden will be spread over the nation as a whole. And the unions will be taught a lesson they'll never forget. The people on the bankruptcy control panel - many of whom probably will be anti-New York Sunbelt types - will surely exact a high price for having to bail out the city's pension plans. These greedy unions will find their inflated egos taken down more than a few notches, as their members find themselves "decruited" en masse. Don't forget, a bankruptcy filing will turn union contracts into the equivalent of used toilet paper.
Christ Almighty, it would be wonderful ...
(Municipal bankrupcy)
It might be a good idea for other reasons. NYC has kept its employee wages down way below those in the rest of the region, has the lowest per-student public school spending in the state, and the highest local taxes. Therefore, it has a surplus.
Around the rest of the state, they spend more (on everything except Medicaid and housing), and charge less for it. Ergo, they have budget deficits.
So the state decides NYC does not "need" the money, and sends it to "needy" places elsewhere. Check out the Albany Times Union capitol section. Sheldon Silver has just decided to increase revenue sharing by five percent for every municipality in New York State -- except New York City -- and to pick of the local share of the recent Medicaid expansion for every county in the state -- except New York City.
All we have to do is reduce our taxes, and increase our spending, to the level of everyone else and we can have a budget crisis in not time.
[It might be a good idea for other reasons. NYC has kept its employee wages down way below those in the rest of the region, has the lowest per-student public school spending in the state, and the highest local taxes. Therefore, it has a surplus.
Around the rest of the state, they spend more (on everything except Medicaid and housing), and charge less for it. Ergo, they have budget deficits.
So the state decides NYC does not "need" the money, and sends it to "needy" places elsewhere. Check out the Albany Times Union capitol section. Sheldon Silver has just decided to increase revenue sharing by five percent for every municipality in New York State -- except New York City -- and to pick of the local share of the recent Medicaid expansion for every county in the state -- except New York City.
All we have to do is reduce our taxes, and increase our spending, to the level of everyone else and we can have a budget crisis in not time.]
Why don't we? I've always said I'd be a one term mayor--I can't imagine how anybody would stand for this. I'd cut local taxes to the national average, adjust spending on a per category basis to the national average, and then let the City go bankrupt if necessary.
[I've always said I'd be a one term mayor--I can't imagine how anybody would stand for this. I'd cut local taxes to the national average, adjust spending on a per category basis to the national average, and then let the City go bankrupt if necessary.]
Those spending adjustment actually would _help_ transit, as the city currently spends below the national average on transportation. It would be the same for education, too. Of course, massive Medicaid cuts would be required, but they're long, long overdue.
(Of course, massive Medicaid cuts would be required, but they're long, long overdue).
The state is expanding Medicaid, to give more benefits to non-poor senior citizens. The federal government won't be contributing to this. Its great publicity for state legislators, but it won't cost them much, since much of the cost will be dumped on local governments. County governments were outraged. Silver's compromise plan is to have the state pick up the local share -- except in New York City.
And, they just raised the Medicaid reimbursement for doctor visits. From $7.00 per visit to $30.00. They were spending double the national average per Medicaid recipiant, and paying the doctors $7.00? Says it all.
I get a personal webpage from Worldnet. I'l like to start posting some of this stuff on the web, but I can't figure it out. The instructions assume you already know a lot (or at least something). Born too soon (or, for subways, late).
I get a personal webpage from Worldnet. I'l like to start posting some of this stuff on the web, but I can't figure it out.
There's lots of on-line tutorials on writing and uploading web pages. If you're having trouble writing HTML, try looking at
http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu/General/Internet/WWW/HTMLPrimerAll.html. If you're having problems uploading your pages, remember that 1) you'll probably need an FTP client, and 2) the exact procedures depend on your ISP's configuration.
CH.
(For Larry Littlefield's benefit)
an FTP client means: your computer should have a way to upload files to another computer via FTP (file transfer protocol).
Coffee Cup DirectFTP is an example of an FTP transfer program.
Wayne
[The state is expanding Medicaid, to give more benefits to non-poor senior citizens. The federal government won't be contributing to this. Its great publicity for state legislators, but it won't cost them much, since much of the cost will be dumped on local governments. County governments were outraged. Silver's compromise plan is to have the state pick up the local share -- except in New York City.]
All this state-vs.-city talk obscures the fact that the city has close to a majority of the state's population and therefore should be able to get its interests represented in the legislature. Or am I missing something?
[I get a personal webpage from Worldnet. I'l like to start posting some of this stuff on the web, but I can't figure it out. The instructions assume you already know a lot (or at least something). Born too soon (or, for subways, late).]
"The Vampire State" would be an excellent name for your page. www.vampirestate.com?
www.vampirestate.com has already been registered!
--Mark
It should be illegal to put up those Coming Soon pages and hoard addresses. Until you have a site, your address of choice is up for grabs.
I did, however, reserve "Vampire-State" on worldnet's personal pages. I just have no idea how to move text, tables and charts from spreadsheets and wordprocessing, which I understand, onto the internet.
Some word processors (like MS Word) and spreadsheets (like MS Excel) ... I'm talking the latest versions here ... allow you to "Save as" HTML.
Then you can use the HTML page on your web site.
How it will look, I dunno ...
[Those spending adjustment actually would _help_ transit, as the city currently spends below the national average on transportation. It would be the same for education, too. Of course, massive Medicaid cuts would be required, but they're long, long overdue.]
And without cutting out our own pork, we can't very well call on NYS to cut out its.
[For those of you who aren't following the stock market, it is crashing back to reality. Transit connection? As part of the recent contract, transit workers are no longer required to contribute to their pensions, but this is expected to cost the MTA nothing. Why? Because stocks are permanently higher!
While I prefer this pension raid, which benefits today's underpaid workers, to the kind Carl McCall proposes for all public employees in New York -- an automatic cost of living increase for those lucky SOBs who cashed in over-generous Tier I pensions years ago -- the effect is the same. More pension contributions, service cuts, wage cuts, higher fares.
The MTA will be saddled with the results of a debt-ridden capital plan and this pension raid for years to come. I only hope the drop comes soon enough to prevent similar pension raids in other agencies.
]
Just be glad the doofuses in Congress didn't manage to push through Social Security Trust Fund stock investment (at least, I hope they didn't!).
As of last Thursday, I believe they were still talking about it.
[As of last Thursday, I believe they were still talking about it.]
LOL, hope they'll be allowed to go short.
[Just be glad the doofuses in Congress didn't manage to push through
Social Security Trust Fund stock investment (at least, I hope they
didn't!).]
Fortnately, they didn't. I would presume that the stock market's recent fussy behavoir will kill off the plan for good. But then again, when you're dealing with politicians, you can never be quite sure.
Should the stock market's slide continue, we might see the plans for the Second Avenue line put on the back burner (if they've ever been off there, of course) for an entirely different reason - if the financial services businesses and dot.coms start laying off employees, subway ridership will diminish. Now that hasn't yet happened, and indeed may not, but it's something to be kept in mind.
[...if the financial services businesses and dot.coms start laying off employees, subway ridership will diminish....]
Not quite. If the financials and internets start laying off employees, then LIMOUSINE and TAXI ridership will diminish, and subway riding will INCREASE.
[Fortnately, they didn't. I would presume that the stock market's recent fussy behavoir will kill off the plan for good. But then again, when you're dealing with politicians, you can never be quite sure.
Should the stock market's slide continue, we might see the plans for the Second Avenue line put on the back burner (if they've ever been off there, of course) for an entirely different reason - if the financial services businesses and dot.coms start laying off employees, subway ridership will diminish. Now that hasn't yet happened, and indeed may not, but it's something to be kept in mind.]
Don't forget what happened in the last crash, too. The City is very dependent on Wall Street, and with its paltry growth, particularly vulnerable to a recession. The only real answer here is fiscal responsibility on the part of the City and State, and that doesn't seem to be in the cards. Margaret Thatcher for Governor?
[Fortnately, they didn't. I would presume that the stock market's recent fussy behavoir will kill off the plan for good. But then again, when you're dealing with politicians, you can never be quite sure.
Should the stock market's slide continue, we might see the plans for the Second Avenue line put on the back burner (if they've ever been off there, of course) for an entirely different reason - if the financial services businesses and dot.coms start laying off employees, subway ridership will diminish. Now that hasn't yet happened, and indeed may not, but it's something to be kept in mind.]
Don't forget what happened in the last crash, too. The City is very dependent on Wall Street, and with its paltry growth, particularly vulnerable to a recession. The only real answer here is fiscal responsibility on the part of the City and State, and that doesn't seem to be in the cards. Margaret Thatcher for Governor? Hell, the way this place is run, I think we'd better elect Gorbachev first.
On the nycsubway.org website, there's a photo of a 2-car "SOAC" train at Smith-9th st. station in 1974. Was this some kind of experimental train? How long did they run? Are there any left? And what does "SOAC" stand for anyway?
All of your questions will be answered right here. And you can see the cars in person at the Seashore Trolley Museum.
SOAC is the initials for State Of the Art Car. It was a joint venture between the United States Department of Transportation and Boeing Aircraft Corporation. The cars were 75' feet long and had a futuristic slanted front end that was all windscreen (glass).
The idea behind them was similar in a way to the PCC program of many years earlier: the government trying to make a "standardized" rapid transit vehicle for different municipalities. The end result is that although the program fizzled out, some of the basics of the cars were implemented on the BMT-IND division. I think I have some of the story right.
I can say from my personal experience of having ridden on the two test cars (during their Brighton Beach line run, circa 1974) was that the cars were outfitted with commuter-car seating (actually the interior was closer to an airliner's high back-rest type seats). That was in the first car. The second unit had back-to-back seating that the R-44/46 cars interiors were based upon. Also, at either end of the car were COFFEE TABLES! (A neat idea for those trying to hold down a poker game or doing some homework on the ride home!) Another nice detail -- later incorporated into the R-44/46 cars that first ran on the F line, then discarded -- was wall-to-wall capeting that was used in both SOAC units.
One thing I wasn't able to accomplish during the SOAC's New York testing was to get to take shots of the cars in service on the various lines. Their was never a set schedule (at least as far as I knew) that you could follow to get to ride them. My trip was a surprise when the two-car set rolled into Parkside Avenue station one day. Needless to say, my jaw dropped when I first saw those cars. I'm glad to know they survived up at the Seashore Trolley Museum.
Doug aka BMTman
P.S. I believe the SOAC cars were outrigged with pantographs for use on RT lines that were equipped solely with overhead power.
Thanks, Doug and Todd, for the great information. I can't believe I actually missed something on the nysubway site.
They ran them on the Swift in Chicago but they needed special platforms at Howard and Dempster because they were too wide. They could not enter the rest of the Chicago system because if the width and they were too long to make the L's tight corners.
Where else did they run??
Read the information elsewhere on this site, specifically SOAC Statistics.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's a bath car. It's designer wasn't a good speller.
Today I saw 2 5 trains at around 3:PM go down the 7th ave and around the outer loop of South Ferry. One arrived at Canal & 7th after switching from express to local. It discharged all passengers and conductor announced that the next stop was Bowling Green and the train was going back up the east side. I saw the second train at South Ferry. There was a 5 stopped in the inner loop, and I saw the next 5 on the outer loop go by (empty). It was weird seeing redbirds on both tracks at the same time.
What was going on?
When was the last time anyone saw a redbird in South Ferry's outer loop?
Are you sure it was not Chambers Street were the train crossed over to the local track? Canal Street is a local stop on the 7 Avenue line. Usually 5 reroutes operate light Chambers Street to Bowling Green, since only the R62A's can make a station stop at South Ferry. The reason being that the doors are configured differently on those cars than all the other cars. They discovered this when the R-62A's first went on the 1 and the platforms did not line up with doorways. Instead of just not running that equipment there,they reallined the gap fillers to accoadate the R-62A's cars only.
When I rode this reroute about 5 years ago, the #5, running southbound on the 7th Ave. line, switched from express to local just north of Chambers. From there, the #5 ran non stop down the #1 line, through the South Ferry outer loop and then switched over to the inner loop, finally arriving at the uptown Bowling Green platform.
I meant Chambers. I always mix those two up.
No they didn't. ALl stations can accomadate any equipment they have, with the obvious exception of B division equipment on the A division. The reasons behind this are simple-any train may need to be rerouted at any time.
Redbirds last stopped at the outer loop last year(?) when Conrail derailed a train on the Hudson line, and the TA needed to supplement 1 service from Marble Hill.
The fillers are also much wider than the space needed for the doors to open. If I were home, I'd simply look up the distances in the car drawings book.
-Hank
And now that I'm home....
R28 is 17'1" between the door centers on the cars, and 17'2" between door centers on coupled/linked cars. Door width is 4'2"
R62 are 15'9" between door centers on the cars, and 19' 7.5" between door centers on coupled/linked cars. Door width is 4'2"
Gap fillers at SF are 6' wide (ends) and 8' wide (centers). More than enough.
For comparison, an R32 is 14'7" between door centers on the car, 16'9" between door centers on linked/coupled cars.
-Hank
Because of the Weekend G.O with all Trains Running Express Downtown from Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge there was Lots of conjestion. They had trains backed up from Brooklyn Bridge to 51 Street. I got to Brooklyn Bridge 14 Minutes late because of it.
On Friday afternoon, there were a lot of service changes due to a broken rail north of Grand Central on the SB Express track. 4 trains ran local 125 to 42, 6 service from Parkchester was suspended, thereby cutting 6 trains in half, and alternate 5 trains went down the West Side and looped the Ferry.
I'll bet it was slow going all the way down the Park Ave. straightaway.
In LIRR cab car 5011 or 5013 a month ago on the Oyster Bay line, the automated station announcement, instead of a paging sound, said "Friday, Monday, Saturday" followed by the pertinent announcement. It was funny at times, like "Friday, Monday, Saturday, this station is Locust Valley" or "Friday, Monday, Saturday, this is the train to Jamaica." And on other days that sation is not Locust Valley?
Anybody else experience this or something similar?
Anybody know what went on or if the car still does this?
Stan Tucci did a remarkable job re-creating the NYC of the 1940s in "Joe Gould's Secret". What looks like a Triplex is seen on two occasions in the film, and there are newsreels from the 40s in the opening montage. At one point, Tucci as Joseph Mitchell consults a 1940s vintage Hagstrom.
Of course, the movie is also recommendable for Ian Holm's acting job rendering a legendary street person from the first half of the 20th Century. You will be consulting your dogeared copy of "Up In The Old Hotel" after seeing the film...
www.forgotten-my.com
I love historical fiction and enjoyed the film in that regard. However, the triplex was clearly standing still in every shot! There was nothing but black on the other side of the windows.
dave
Spec FX
avid
If you want to see a Triplex move, check out Class of '44. 6095 is in plain view along with one of the other two museum units. There's one oddity: the train is empty.
I loved up in the old hotel. Mitchell seemed more interested in boats than subways however. Mitchell interviewed tavern owners, cops, fisherman, fish sellers, exterminators, cooks, etc. and viewed them sypathetically. There isn't too much literature of that type about the subway. In fact, whenever you read about someone in the subway, it's someone like Joe Gould.
I heard through the grapevine that the Transit Museum had a surprise guest last week (Friday, April 7). It was none other than former Jets Quarterback Joe Namath.
Does anyone know if he's a railfan, or just went down to the museum to push his March of Dimes event?
Doug aka BMTman
I think you're mixing up your "Dodgers" ;-)
So, do you assume that one has to be a railfan to visit a rail museum ***W*R*O*N*G*** Rail museums wouldn't last five minutes if it weren't for Mommy and Daddy taking junior to the museum to look at and ride the choo-choos. THEY ARE THE BREAD AND BUTTER OF RAIL MUSEUMS. However, railfans who volunteer at museums are also important but the average railfan just sits on his butt watching videos while bragging about his slide collection.
Yesterday MTA employees were counting riders at each station as they left the trains. Is this done several times a year or only when "service adjustments" are planned?
All NYCT routes are counted regularly. The only way to know whether "service adjustments" are needed is to physically count the riders.
You mean those geniuses bought fare gates that don't tally usage in both directions or at least Metrocard entries?
There are no faregates at the stations except at Saint George. One cannot count where people are coming/going. You also cannot count trips that don't involve St. George.
They tally usage in both directions (it counts, Tokens, Cards, Exits), though what about fare-beaters, and kids who just continually rotate the turnstile? Also, you never really know where everyone is going. It would only show station usage, not line usage.
There are no fare controls on the SIR except at St. George. Anyone who does not enter or exit at St. George does not get counted at all. Additionally, there is no way to count bordings or alightings at any other stations.
-Hank
NOW !!........the local media here is running another SCAM........ that those of us who refuse to participate in
senseless Census 2000..etc... that we are holding up the pasadena BLUE LINE rail project .!! ??? 10 year delay ?
and so I am stopping the light rail construction ( similar to what you now have in new jersey )... And that if
i dont hurry up and rush my senseless census form with everything filled out.........................
WE WONT BUILD THE PASADENA BLUE LINE !!..............I guess i am holding them up i did not fill out that
census form !! ( and are not going to co-operate with the enumerators either !!
what do you think about this lunacy??
It's not lunacy, it's the truth. Census data is used to predict ridership. Not enough potential riders, no reason to build it.
STAY OUT OF JAIL, COMPLETE YOUR CENSUS FORM!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
no !! it is lunacy !! i have never filled out any senseless census form I am not a puppet of uncle sam as you might ne !!
and as for going to jail i have a question for you mr senseless census anon_e_mouse and it goes like this:...............
NAME ONE PERSON YOU KNOW WHO WAS ARRESTED FOR REFUSING TO FILL OUT ANY CENSUS FORM !!
fill in on this form and answer here______________________________________________________????..!!! ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________________________________
............... as I figured you left this form BLANK because you dont know anybody who whent to jail for refusing
to participate in the 1970 1980 1990 2000 SENSELESS CENSUS ( none of them i participated in ).........
the pasadena BLUE LINE HOAX is lunacy along with NO PROFF in your last post !!
it is is very weak how the sheep out there is fooled by government and is this yourself as well ?? ( some of the american public )
until next time....salaamallah_____________..!!
Actually, The News and Observer of Raleigh, North Carolina has reported at least one instance where two people in Durham have been cited for contempt for refusing to cooperate with the census enumerators. Their cases have not come to trial yet, obviously - IIRC they are scheduled for July - but the normal sentence upon conviction of third-degree contempt is 12 hours in jail. The persons involved ordered the enumerators to leave, in what was reported as a threatening manner, but did not otherwise offer bodily harm to the enumerators. When the enumerators returned, accompanied by a police officer, the threats were repeated and the citation given. The enumerators were able to complete their work anyway, thanks to the neighbors.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
when did this happen mr mouse ?? what year ? and check out how NOSY BUSY-BODY neighbors ( as you said )
then you have to go to a backwards place out of nowhere like DURAM NORTH CAROLINA ??
and then you did not give a date on this !!___________________________________________!!!!___
fill out this blank please !! when did this so called happen ??_______________________________________
since you are the expert why only NORTH CAROLINA ??___________________________________________
the pasadena police and the altadena sheriffs did not arrest cite or summons me to court in 1970 1980 1990 2000 !!
AND the enumerators for senseless census 2000 have not gone into operation as of yet !!
why do you post such mis-information on this ?? 2000 senseless census enumeration has not even began as of yet !!
10 years ago when i as in detroit nobody was fined or arrested and most refused and rerfused to cooperate !!
AND so this proves why some ""hick town" and the fooled american public like you have to dig up some
backwards racist hick town in the carolinas and only one incident and no date and year this happened !!
surely mr anon e mouse you can do better than this !!! there is no third degree contempt for not
co-operating with the 2000 or any other senseless-census ! and no convitions either !!
and no fines ever collected !! -------- north carolina ????............. give me a break mr mouse !!!!
one case in north carolina and one hick southern town not even in florida or georgia !! ( census enumerator refusals )
( and i spent time in college park & east point georgia ).......... monroe lousiana etc.......
and nobody went to jail and or was ever fined for refusing to do any census !!
finally the MARTA rail was built anyway even with a low census count !! and i dont blame them for refusing and resisting !
when did this happen mr mouse ??
About a week ago - last Saturday, IIRC. As I indicated in my prior post, the case has not come to trial yet. That should give you a clue that it is very recent.
backwards place out of nowhere like DURAM NORTH CAROLINA
As in Durham, North Carolina, home of Duke University and the Research Triangle Park? I hardly consider that a backwards place out of nowhere!
the enumerators for senseless census 2000 have not gone into operation as of yet !!
Wrong. I don't know exactly when they began work, but they visited my New Jersey neighborhood this past Tuesday, verifying submitted data. Out-of-date local records indicated only one person at our address (the prior owner of our house, who died in 1997) but our census form indicated three so they were checking for accuracy.
some backwards racist hick town
Well, if you consider a major city (population over 200,000 in 1996, part of the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill SMSA, population over 1 million), with a black mayor, black female chief of police, 60% black population, and two major universities - one (NC Central) a traditionally black college - to be a racist hick town, that's your prerogative. I disagree. Neither you nor I have any clue as to the ethnic background of any of the people involved in this incident. Why do you seem to feel that anything you don't like is racist?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
# 1 enumerators are not in operation as of yet ( and they are still hiring )...............
and from the two carolinas ( states ) home of ......... JESSIE HELMS ....... inc......
# 2 ....... I am asking for a NORMAL state city etc.......... like new york chicago atlanta los angeles san francisco
seattle las vegas denver philly boston and somewhere except for some a best narrow minded southern
19 th century type confederate flag waving town and hick state !! ( thats what i mean )
# 3 Also threats and or verbal and even terroristic so called threats are HANDLED RIGHT NOW !!!
by southern law police and sheriffs etc.........
they dont play with this type of stuff down there !!
# 4 If arrests were made it was ONLY because of the so called ""police & sheriffs "' hearing threats of
harm yelled at census enumerators ( geting a conviction on this is another story )............and a fine from the senseless census !! ?......
#5 I would not advocate anyone threatining anyone but the enumerators will be met with water from
a hose in a hidden location.......... in 1980 - 1970 i sprayed the enumerators with a water hose !!
AND I GOT AWAY WITH IT ........ i even waited to see if the sheriffs would come !! ( they did not )
#6 so the enumerators go to your NOSY neighbors ?? what in the hell do they know ?? most neighbors
dont even know and or speak to one another !!
#7 still you refuse to date anyone who was fined and the money was collected for refusing to co-operate
with the senseless census in any way !!
# 8 my neighbors are gone from 6.oo am to 6.oo pm everyday !! the doors are locked and nobody is home !!
and they didnt participate in the senseles census either !!
I dont see your point in your last post nobody is going to be fined this time either !!
until next time _____salaamallah______
He's one of those losers who cries racism to protect his faulty arguments.
And in most cases, those who cry racism, are themselves racists. Although to them, minorities cannot be racists (so Affirmative Action wouldn't be racism, etc.).
so you didnt use the killfile !! ...... and so you say whites cant be racist ............ also i still would like to have
my question answered by somewhere else besides jessie helms carolinas ...... and his supporters etc........
about how this blue line has been delayed because of an projected senseless census 2000 undercount ??
make some sense folks !!! ........or is that asking for too much ??..
so once again the mr railfan-window-vidieo-camera-etc....
Wins with the truth!! again i do not believe that the pasadena ca. BLUE LINE light rail project is being HELD-UP by census refusals !!
And i dont believe one person will be arrested or charged for refusing to patticipate in census 2000 unless other criminal acts were performed such as threats in ""jessie helms" carolina states !!
So I am glad i finally set the record straight !!
Oh Crappola, here we go again. I was off on our Easter break so I did not communicate with this website for a week. It looks like I haven't missed a damn thing and the sos is still flying thick and heavy.
Get that killfile NOW!! You'll be happier not knowing what he spews.
I sure am.
I only posted in response to someone that posted in response to him. If more people killfile him, less people will have to read the threads he pollutes.
to the last three posts who insists no whites have ever been racist and to the children who posted this & other flamage & attacks etc....
( you know who you are )......go back and hide behind your killfiles where you came from and stay there !..
( back on topic ) ...... like the hoax of the senseless census scam of holding up light rail THE PASADENA BLUE LINE
a absolute scam has been run as to say that the construction has been held up by a low census count ??...!!!
my comment is just like to he last thre posters in this thread ........B.....S........!!!!!
what the carolina census workers should have done is to "just go away " and leave the angry non participating census protester- (s) 100 %.. ALONE !!...
the police should not have been involved in this at all...
why did they go and get the cops & PROVOKE a already bad situation and inflame it up and make it worse ???
remember mr mouse and other subtalkers this senseless census has gotten WAY OUT OF HAND !!
its not just a head count but a privacy strip search !!
A lot of folks want out of this !!
( not just including myself )
thats why i refuse to co-operate and refuse and
resist this CENSUS B.S...!!!
Because Sally is an idiot. ITYS.
-Hank
is that your real name hank ?? so your real name is sally-itys-hank.?? what kind of a name is that...(.idiot .)???
.......your words not mine.....!!
Is it just me or are many of you out there getting good and pissed off about reading this and that about the census. If you don't want to participate that's fine, just don't complain when this group or that group gets shortchanged when it comes to representation and goodies parceled out by the government. Now can we get off this cruddy subject and back to things that don't piss me off.
the government lies and shortchanges you anyway!! like the IRS going after the weak low income people the hardest
and the most vicious !! like the senseless census the lies about representation and goodies that never come ever..
the census lies about this group and that getting reprensentation and all of the lies and hand jive connected to it !!
Just like how the pasadena blue line is being held up by a low census count ?? ( typical B.S. right ?? )...........
there is no need to get pissed off and nything drastic like that just COOL OFF !! see the hoax the census is !
Does anyone know what happens to the transfer(s) placed onto the card if the card uses up the last fare during the dip/swipe? Are they still "on the Card" or does the O.oo fare balance wipe out those placed transfers? Station agents, please respond. Thanks.
I'm not a station agent, but from experience I can tell you that the transfer is still encoded and will work.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am a Station Agent.
Your answer is right but in real life it sometimes loses the transfer if the balance becomes 0.00 or if you trade in the card when a transfer is encoded.
Best bet-- leave 0.50 on the card or add money before you will use the last fare.
I'm not a station agent either, but I know this about MetroCard transfers:
1. Most of the time the transfer remains with a $0 balance.
2. Adding value ususally does not remove a transfer.
3. A transfer from express but to express bus is free (no step-up) unless...
4. If you add money to a card with a transfer from an express bus, the transfer many times will become a normal one and you will have to pay the step-up for the second express bus.
5. You can transfer twice on LI bus and Staten Island routes. Second transfer expires 2 hours after you use the first transfer, not 2 hours after you pay.
5. You can transfer free between SIR and the Subway.
6. You can use an unlimited ride card within 18 minutes on something other than what you just used it on and it will say "1 Transfer OK".
7. A bad time to find out you don't have a trasfer is when your card is empty, you're on the bus and have no change.
Also, I must add 2 things:
1. I know there are 2 #5's in my previous post
2. The first #5 also includes SIR and Express buses. So you can take:
Subway, SIR, Bus
Bus, SIR, Subway
Bus, SIR, Bus
SIR, Bus, Bus
Bus, Bus, Sir
Bus, Bus, Bus
Subway Bus, Bus
Bus, Bus, Subway
Express, Bus, Bus
Express, Bus, Express + $1.50
Bus, Bus, Express + $1.50
No, you can't. The possible transfers on SI are:
s51, s53, s54, s55, s56, s57, s59,s74, s76, or s79 to (and from) the SIR, and again, if you go to Manhattan, to the M1, M9, M20, M15, M6 or the subway at South Ferry, Bowling Green, Wall St (both on the east and west side IRT, Broad Street, Rector St (IRT or BMT), or Broadway-Nassau/Fulton St.
In reverse, you can board at any station, and get a free transfer to any SI Bus or the SIR at St. George, as long as it's within 2 hours; and again to any of the listed buses; although the transfer is supposed to go within 2 hours, from my experience, the clock starts again at St.George. I've made trips from 231/B'way to home by Local all the way, and made my transfers.
-Hank
I really enjoy riding on The Franklin Avenue Shuttle in Brooklyn. However, The Grand Central Shuttle is my number one favorite. When I become a Motorman, If I was on the A-Division, I would pick the Grand Central shuttle or the Dyre Avenue shuttle. However, the Motorman/TO's complain about doing 40 or more round trips and long hours. Several Motormen I know hate the shuttle, because they don't wanna be a bouncing pinball all day.
Gotta love the Myrtle Ave. shuttle at night. Nobody rides it.
[I really enjoy riding on The Franklin Avenue Shuttle in Brooklyn. However, The Grand Central Shuttle is my number one favorite. When I become a Motorman, If I was on the A-Division, I would pick the Grand Central shuttle or the Dyre Avenue shuttle. However, the Motorman/TO's complain about doing 40 or more round trips and long hours. Several Motormen I know hate the shuttle, because they don't wanna be a bouncing pinball all day.]
They should have thought of that before the automation er caught fire for reasons unknown.
I used to love the Culver Shuttle when it was still operating. The 2 in-between stations, 13th Av and Ft Hamilton seemed like they were never renovated so it was like being in original el stations. (I'm not really sure, but it did seem that way) Also the climb out of the 9Av station from the tunnel onto the el was fun. And last but not least, when I rode 'em they still were using standards which were always great to ride. And it was funny changing at Ditmas from a standard to an R38 or an R40 slant on the "F". (even though I always hoped for an R1-9)
The 2 in-between Culver shuttle stations were allowed to deteriorate to drive down ridership, thus justifying the eventual closure/demolition of this line. The same thing was done to the Bronx 3rd Ave. el.
I don't know I would want to be confined to a shuttle operation if I were a motorman.
Think of seeing the same track back and forth 40x a day. You'd probably dream about it at night.
Can you imagine your conversation with your wife over dinner?: "Something interesting happened on the job today. I saw a new chip of paint fall from the 43rd pillar on the south side of Track 4 just east of Times Square."
Before OPTO if I wanted needed a little workout that would be the Line to Pick because you had to keep changing ends exept Rush Hour where you had T/O'S on O/T double end the train for you.
Now its always Double ended and your on the same side for 42 Trips. Ofcause you get some breaks.
Most of the Time I worked the Grand Central Shuttle it was on those overtime Rush Hour runs which where done away with since OPTO. These runs where 20 Trips.
I like the main line better.
Best shuttle is Rockaway Park. Outside all the time, nice bridge to go over. Railroad ROW. Even better on summer weekends when it goes to Euclid. Almost isn't a shuttle.
When I was working Vaction Relief, I would always bid on any Shuttle runs or runs where you would make just one long trip and the rest shuttles. The Franklin Shuttle was great when they had 3 trains on the line in rushhour. There where fewer trips. An average of about 12 trips. The most was 15 trips, which considered a bad run. I only worked it in this way 2 times while on the extra, extra list. The T.A. cut the extra train in rushhour and more trips where added. An average of 20 trips. I still liked working there because it wasn't the main line and a that time when we still had those big radios, the radios stayed in the conductors position. No radio to carry. The run I used to bid on a lot when the Train Operator went on Vaction was F/S 302. This run would make the 20:54 (9:04 P.M) out of Franklin Avenue which would lay up in Prospect Park Station O-1/A-1 Track. It was the only schedule train to take the passengers into Prospect Park Station on the Malbone Street Side. When they went to Opto. I stop working most of the shuttle lines. Now the only shuttle service which still has a conductor at all times is the M. Its only shuttle only trips on weekends only. All the weekday trips that make shuttle trips have at least one long trip. The Rockaway Park Shuttle has only conductors for he trips to Euclid Avenue Only. We used to have a summer pick which you where able to pick runs that conductors on all trips. The T.A. eliminated the summer pick and during the summer they supplement schedules. That means you are only have a conductor for the summer and the other four months you are by yourself. I hate that. I,m not O.P.T.O. quailfied and I dont want to be.
I feel the same Way.
My dad is a Queens Village B/O. Whenever he pics, he just goes to the General Superintendent and requests a line w/ good hours like the Q30 or Q46. However, I was wondering how do Motormen pick sveral lines? For example, Would I be able to request the #4 or #7? Or is it like the B/O's when they get Extra lists? Also, are their Senority routes that cannot be touched by new Motormen? Do they have MISC runs just like B/O's where they operate several lines in 1 day?
The Motormen (Now called Train Operator) pick tricks along at the same time as conductors according to senority. We have two seperate picks one for the A Division (Former I.R.T.) and the other for B Division (Former B.M.T./I.N.D.). There are two picks a year for each division. The lines are seperated into sections such as Broadwy/Lenox (1,2,3 42 Street Shuttle ) Eastern Queens (4,5,6,7). The B division is divided into three sections. North (A,C, H which is the Rockaway Park Shuttle J,L,M) Queens (E,F,G,R) Brooklyn South B,D,N,Q, F/S Franklin Shuttle). The 9 Service works off the 1 Schedule. The Z Service is part of the J Schedule. You can choose any if there is a run open. If you pick on a line and you dont have Saturday and Sunday off,then you need to pick a run for Saturday, Sunday or both You may choose a run on the same line or a different line in that section only. For example: If I pick a run on the M and choose Monday/Tuesday for R.D.O. (Regular Days off) I could pick on the M or J,L,A,C,H for Saturday or Sunday or both. I Would not be able to pick on the B because,its in a different section. I could pick R.D.O. relief witch is working the runs that have been picked on the persons days off. I could select any combination within that section only. The X/L (Extra List) Is also divided into sections you are assinged runs a different run every day according to that division, but they can give you runs outside that section if runs are avalble in your section. The non road jobs for conductors and train operators are similarly divided.
One correction, the 7 line is part of Broadway.
And the shuttle is part of Lexington
Can a Operator switchg divisions or are they stuck in A/B forever, or switch say from B South to B Queens?
Yes they can switch once a year. Me I am gonna be going back and forth. u gotta wait 4 an interdimensional pic
I'm from the B Division. The last time I had any dealings with the A Division The lines had more where divided into more sections Broadway 1, 42 Street Shuttle/ Lenox 2,3,5,/ Eastern 4,6/ Queens 7 / this goes back to 1982.
Specifically what are non-road jobs? switching?
Work trains, switching, yard for the motormen. Conductors have mail, platform, hand throw switch yard work, construction flagging and the signal dolly.
Work trains running reversed have a guy ride the front flatcar with a radio (or possibly a clear-com) and his hand on a brake valve (it looks like) is that guy a conductor, or another motorman?
It's a motorman, but used to be a conductor. On all other rail operations it's a conductor. That's a testament to the so called power of the TWU.
Any run, trick that does not include operating a train with passengers.
How does the actual pick work though? By hand still? Or can you use the internet/telephone?
Here in Boston the actual picking is still done by hand, with pencils. You show up at your rating station (bus garage or rail barn) at a specified 15-minute time and just pencil in your name for runs that remain unfilled when you get there.
Here we use HASTUS 5 to build the vehicle schedules. The schedules are changed 4 times annually, and that season's schedule is based on last years', with any appropriate changes built in.
The vehicle strings are then cut up manually (still by pencil) into pieces of work that are assembled into runs based on the union contract stipulations. We have some 6-hour part time runs, but mostly full-time. Most runs have a midday swing. I heard the TA uses TRAPEZE, not HASTUS. Here the schedule writers are union-protected, local 589 jobs. I heard the TA uses management to write schedules.
The schedule writers' responsibility is to make sure that runs are as close to 6 or 8 hours as possible, that breaktimes are factored in, and that hooks are scheduled without excessive layover time.
The runs are then entered into HASTUS on sheets called rectigraphs that go out to the field and are used for picking. These rectigraphs include report, swing on/swing off, pullout and pullback times, as well as platform time and pay.
When the pick is done the final rectigraph has the regular day and day off operator and badge number on them. HASTUS calculates midpoint and arrival times that are put into the public schedule cards.
Would be interested in hearing more about how the TA does it.....
Conrad, does your office also do the Commuter Rail schedules/picks, or is this done separately due to the AMTRAK operation contract?
Hi Todd.
We hardly touch commuter rail at all, and have only limited input on private bus and the boats. Really we do very little on rapid transit either since the utilization patterns don't change much there over time. Local and express buses require much of the focus since the utilization patterns are the most dynamic.
On the IRT the Hardest Lines to pick a Regular run on is the No.4,5, and 7 Lines. The easiest pick on the IRT is the No.1/9 Line AM'S and PM'S.
here is the answer for Station Agents ( and cleaners):
We pick separately. They post all jobs on the walls in the pick room (located at 42nd/8th avenue in the mezzanine). Any Station Agent can pick any available job at the time they are scheduled to pick based on seniority order.
There are several types of jobs available:
5 days-- you work that booth 5 days a week
RDO--you work other people's booths when they are off. You select your schedule based on what is available after the regular pick. If I am off Tuesday amd Wednesday someone has to work my job those days.
Extra-- You call up every day during your tour (Shift) for the next day's job. New people start here.
Lunch relief-- you go from booth to booth giving the Station Agent a 30 minute lunch break. Some Lunch reliefs also go to 370 Jay Street to deliver and/or pick up mail. Lunch reliefs often serve as escrots to/from part-time booths. Lunch reliefs may also man(work) a part-time booth.
Vacation Relief--you work the person;'s schedule when they are on vacation.
You pick your Vacation in the fall of the year for the next calendar year-based on seniority and what is avaiolable at the time you pick.
Twice during each pick there are opportunities to change jobs-- these are called Open Job Bids. You can bid on any job which was held by a person with a **lower** seniority number than yours. If you are number 3335 and a job is available that was held by seniority number 3000 you can bid on that job and the most seniority gets that job. If there was a job held by senority number 3336- we cant bid on that since we did not want it at the pick. If you get a job from Open Job bid #1 you can not bid on Open Job Bid #2.
Extras gets three "Hold Downs" during each pick for jobs opened up by retirement, promotions, terminations, moving to a different job. Hold Down #1 is from Day 1 of the pick till Open Bid #1 becomes effective.
Hold down #2 runs from effecive day of Open bid #1 till open bid #2 becomes effective, and #3 from the day open bid #2 starts to the end of the pick. If no one bids on a job on a hold down the least senior Station Agent is assigned to the job. A hold down means the job is yours for that period of time.
Our seniority numbers are updated every February although we move up due to retirements, promotions,demotions, terminations, etc.(Our number stays the same but there may be 10 people fewer between us and the first person on the list.) If a person gets promoted and then returns before the year in the new job, their old number gets restored with an "A"--such as 3100A which would pick after 3100 and before 3101.
Your lucky. We pick by file numbers, which are seperate from the senority numbers. The senority numbers are updated more frequently. The file numbers get updated once every five years. When I first started in this department after comming from Car Mantance, the file numbers where updated in 1980. The next time they updated them was 1990. You had Train Operators and Conductors file numbers in the 7000's. It was starting to look like a Zip Code instead of a file number. I waiting for them to update them again. They where updated three times since 1990, however the file numbers are getting close to five digits. There already into the 6400's with Train Operators.
I'm not sure if it has been mentioned on this board or not, but it appears that the R-142 is being tested on the weekend also.
I spotted the train at the testing track near the Morris Park station heading northbound at 9AM Saturday morning.
Thanks
MONTREAL (AP) . An explosion apparently sparked by an electrical problem shut down Montreal's subway system Saturday morning, a transit official said. No injuries were reported.
The blast and a subsequent fire knocked out the subway communication system, and yellow smoke that billowed out of two manholes caused authorities to evacuate about 100 people from their homes in case the smoke was toxic.
``We're fortunate that this happened on a Saturday morning,'' when traffic was light, said transit spokeswoman Odile Paradis.
She said no train passengers were injured in the explosion at 7:45 a.m. at the Laurier subway station in central Montreal. Scores of buses were deployed throughout the city to transport people waiting for trains.
Paradis said she expected the subway system to be operating as usual by Monday.
AP-NY-04-15-00 1118EDT
Sounds like an electrical problem, NOT A BOMB!!!!!
right ?? and was a ...bomb....remains found anywhere ?? ___________________and the proff is....._________.!!
Figures. In fact, I looked at the post even though I have him killfiled. The FIRST LINE says 'electrical problem'. What a shmuck.
-Hank
at the last minute i decided to ride the new line... unfortunately i was a little misdirected in my attempt to ride the line as i waited at exchange place for about 2 hours without seeing anything...
i finally realized that the new line started at exchange place in jersey city, and not in downtown manhattan...
i was really hesitant about going, because i fear crowds of strangers who don't know me as well as generally getting in my way... they had waiting lines set up for the free rides, but when the cars came in, there was plenty of room for everyone... the light rail operator's cabin has a glass on the door that allows you to see in... there was a speedometer on the dash... the train crept through
most of the stops in jersey city... it came to a stop at almost every corner... there was one section where it seemed like local residents were protesting the noise the cars would make...
but on the stretch between the science center and bayonne, the operator had the cars up to about 50/55 miles per hour... the ride was very smooth... the cars had a very boxy appearance, but there were two semi articulated joints in the middle of each car...there were a couple of sections where the line
past through scrap yards, which i kind of like... i almost thought i spotted an r-142 being cut up for the styrofoam content..
jersey transit had staff people all over the place... since i never talk to anyone in public, i had no idea what they were standing around for...
all in all, it was an interesting couple of hours... i hope to go back and ride it without all the fanfare..
heypaul a question.............. was the r-142 being prepaired for scrap ? ? he! ..he!! he..he.!!..he!..........
or is the r 142 made out of stryrofoam..?........................................................................................!!
i think they are made of styrofoam salaam... i think they were being recycled and were going to be made into coffee cups...
speaking of styrofoam--- reminds me of a steven wright joke i just heard... he was sending a package of styrofoam through the mails, but he didn't know what to pack it in...
haypaul
there where many clowns out there today. which one was you?
i wasn't wearing my clarabell suit today...
i didn't run into any subtalkers or era members which probably made it the pleasant experience it was...
I was there too...Jodi and I ran into faxman at the front of the train (of course) The operator on the train we took back from Bayonne blew the terminal, and the rear car opened off the platform. Fortunately, the sheep learned to look first. First impression? Looks nice, rides nice. The protestors were dopes, and seemed to give up early in the day. Wheels a little noisy, but not much more than a garbage truck is noisy; in fact, quieter. Not too many people when we got there around 2pm (Ticket validated 1409hrs) Jodi and I taped quite bit, despite the drizzle. THe automatic announcements and interior signs were either malfunctioning or disabled. Announcements were made by the operators, most of whom seemed to be women. They flagged every crossing, which we suppose was due to the 'newness' factor (IE, cross these tracks every day for months, never seen anything, why stop?) Odd thing about the cars, they're equipped with turn signals! With 2-car trains, the operator was making signaling a left turn, and before the second car STARTED the turn, started signaling for a right turn! (they were turning the cars near the next stop past Exchange Place, where it seemed a temporary single-track 'Y' section was put) It was starting to crowd when we left (around 4), and of all the places to run into future relatives...
-Hank
Must make a correction; Jodi has pointed out that it couldn't have been that late, and the 'EXP' on the ticket means it expires at 1409, which means, with the 90 minute validation time, our tickets were validated at 1230hrs.
-Hank
I noticed several things about the validators.
1: The one at Westside is 1 hour fast (14:34 at 1:34)
2: A 3 Letter abbreviation is put on for the station you validated at:
EXP = Exchange Place
LSP = Liberty State Park
WES = Westside Ave.
I had acquired 5 free tickets and wanted a validation from all major stops to add to my ticket collection. That's all I got.
Well, I just watched the video we made, seems we were there around 1pm.
-Hank
I took my first ride on the HBLRT today around 2-3 PM. My father and I were quite impressed. The cars, although they look like iceboxes on wheels, are very nice inside and are quiet and smooth. The only thing I didn't like was the door alarms. It was too harsh of a whistle and I don't think it was nessecary. They should have used softer tone bells, like on the subway.
I did see a couple of cheap picket signs on apartment steps near Jersey Avenue and one woman who appeared to be protesting, but they had no effect other than making fools of themselves and they probably know it. I bet you'll see those very people riding the trains not too long from now.
Did you see the Nimby with the [plastic] skeleton and the sign that said "If this is light rail then I'm Hulk Hogan"? Saw this on Essex Street west of the station on the straight street section.
Nimbys! Tellwiddemall!
BTW - Article in NY Times Metro Section today re all different kinds of Nimbys, including Bananas, Niabys, Lulus, Nimbls, &c. Funny but not funny. And that part about class entitlement made me want to throw up!
Wayne
04/16/2000
[The only thing I didn't like was the door alarms. It was too harsh of a whistle and I don't think it was nessecary. They should have used softer tone bells, like on the subway. ]
Better get used to that, this seems to be an ADA thing. Perhaps for those are hard of hearing so they can be warned that doors are closing. Do the R-142's have this feature too?
Bill Newkirk
No, the blinking yellow light is for the hearing impaired. The noise is for the visually impaired. The highlight of my ride? THe guy who had to DUCK boarding the car complaining about it being discrimination. I'm pretty sure it was toungue-in-cheek. I got it on tape.
-Hank
Now wait a minute Hank. I would like to address that comment. Rapid transit in America never takes in to account TALL people.
Everytime I go to DC I forget about the grab iron in the ceiling and hit my head. I can not stand up staight under any of the A/C units in NY's subway fleet. Back when we had (short period) the Flexiable buses I could not stand up straight anywhere in the bus (I'm stil the same height).
No one takes into consideration TALL people when designing transit today. Yeah SHORT people sure.
(End Soap Box Mode)
6'8" and that is not even when I'm standing on the soap box.
Here here! I am 6'7" myself and agree with you. I actually just helped my girlfriend with a small paper last night for her human factors engineering class (designing facilities and equipment with the user/operator in mind) bashing fast food places for their placement of menus behind the counter and how they are blocked by promo signs etc for people over like 6'3".
I hate having to duck to get into a vehicle then not being able to stand inside of it at certain places (as much as I like A/C in the summer....).
Any one familiar with the ADA or know where we can get a look at it online?
-- Dave
Now Lou admit that the problem is that you're from the part of Brooklyn where you can only get Hippos & Rinos. If the TA proivided Red Bird service to Ocean Avenue commuting would be easier for you.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, Lou, I can concur there.
The Tall do get the shaft when it comes to mass transit.
I think we should round up all people over 6'4" and hold protests outside of 370 Jay Street. We could get alot of free press if we invited the Rev. Al. ;-)
And we could use images of Paul Bunyon as our (TPATR) Tall Persons Against Transit Repression "poster boy".
Doug aka BMTman
Questions ...
can you transfer to PATH ??
protesters against new jersey light rail where and why ??
did faxman find a railfan window ??..
I haven't been up to ride the line yet - maybe next weekend if the weather is nice and my arthritis cooperates - but the lines both have stations at Exchange Place. It is not a free transfer, of course, as they are run by different operating authorities.
According to news reports, at least one group was protesting because of the alleged increase in noise from the light rail (like it was any louder than the big diesel trucks running on the adjacent street).
As to the railfan window question, I'll have to leave that to faxman to answer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
we had that same problem with the green line light rail in los angeles county..... and i expect the same with the blue line construction to extend the PASADENA BLUE LINE LIGHT RAIL LINE ( check out these websites and say what you think ! )........ there are several websites for and against this etc ........
and then this light rail future operation thru this bigoted town called south pasadena nymby type folk who are too racist to allow the long beach
710 freeway to be built thru it !! ........so the nymbys come out wimp-ing and whine-ing and belly-ache-ing etc......
?..........just like in new jersey ...?? not in my backyard !! but where else ??...
04/16/2000
Salaam,
Bill Newkirk was there for the opening ceremonies at Liberty State Park and for the first ride on the HBLRT. You can catch the line at the Exchange Place (PATH) station which is about a block away.
As far as a railfan window is concerned, there is a window on the cab door in which you can have a view of the road ahead as well as the operator too. I would tell the operator at the beginning of the run that you are visiting from out of town and would he or she mind you video taping the line. The system is new so they will have to expect photographers from all over recording history. It doesn't hurt to ask, that's what I would do. Some nice views of the old CNJ ROW too.
Bill Newkirk
first there are rail fan windows but with a the guests in the cab i could see that much. the was new construction of homes right along the tracks. how much have those poor home owner's values gone up? ask people with the area looked like 20 year ago. i say it a lot better.
i hope they will let me do this as i am trying to put a vidieo camera inside a blue line car here in los angeles
( tape it to the dash ) and remove it at the end of the run !!
then i dont have to be inside the operators cab until the end of the line .................
hope they are not a stuck up as PATH ...!!
Rim shot
With all the rim shots, how come nobody ever actually took a WAV of a rim shot and posted it instead?
It would make a lot more sense.
And be a pain in the ass to download, and piss me off when I'm posting at 3am.
-Hank
These WAVs are small.
And if you don't want to download it, haven't you ever heard of the STOP button? Or just leaving the website before it finishes?
Sometimes, you can't hit it quick enough. Also, hitting back before the page finishes loading sometimes makes the browser go back to the 2nd previous page.
-Hank
But by the time it loads, it doesn't matter anymore? Quick download wasn't it?
Well, you can always say, "Brrrrrrr-tsss".:-)
thank you heypaul the 142s are made out of styrofoam !!
Subway-buff and I got on the first trolley to West Side Avenue at about 12:10PM. Quite a little system they have there, with street-grade tracks, trolley wire overhead and more curves than a chorus line. The stretch between Jersey Avenue and Liberty State Park was neat, rolling past scrapyards and mounds of debris and snaking around a hairpin curve beneath the New Jersey Turnpike extension. The stations are all very nice. Some of the artwork (45th Street, West Side Avenue, etc.) was very well done - have to go back and photograph it when the sun is shining. I never rode on a Kinkisharyo car - I understand these are the same as the Boston "T"s Type 7s.
My only complaint is that the door closing buzzers are too loud; they should install the same ones as they use on PATH and NYCT.
I liked the articulated center section and the "catbird" seats at the car ends. And the curves, yes, the curves. But NO noise. I guess that's because it was raining and the rails were wet. I would guess you'll hear those cars howl once it's dry.
Does anybody know when the stretch north of Exchange Place (to Pavonia-Newport and Hoboken) is scheduled to open? We forgot to ask around.
Faxman, Mark, Heypaul, Bill, all the others - we somehow missed you. We were on the system from 12:10 to about 2:30.
Wayne
Section 2 to Pavonia will open around 12/2000 and section 3 to Hoboken around middle 2001. SOurce: NJT web site(their HBLR page)
22nd Street in Bayonne will open with section 3.
After riding the whole thing, and hanging around Exhchange Place as the last few cars pulled out out for the day, I went over to Newport Mall, and saw the ROW under construction, including the exposed concrete ties and the rails already in place under the cross street. (First time I saw a concrete track in construction). It looks nice already the way it passes between the mall and the office building, with the bridge conncecting the two buildings passing right over it, and the future station below. Be nice when this section opens.
BTW, the grade crossing signals | / - in "Walk" sign type boxes, are made with white LED's. Brand new Technology, still kind of expensive, but the crisp blue-tinged white looks cool, like mini-mercury bulbs. If they used them for this, then I hope they use their cousins, the blue LED's, on the R-143's and elsewhere on the subway for full color signs.
As to curve noise, back when Dave had the HBLR movie available, I remarked "haven't these guys ever heard of grease? Our LRV's scream through our 36 degree curves." Gee, streetcar systems used to grease curves back in the "old days" to reduce noise. Funny that that part of the wheel didn't get re-invented.
PATH greases the rails upon leaving WTC and NYCT has installed track sprayers at South Ferry and near Grand Central. I'm going back to Jersey City when the weather's dry to get an earful. A perfect spot would be right by the statue at Essex Street station. YOWCH!
These LRV's are Kinkisharyos. What kind are yours?
Wayne
Ours are ABB Traction (the first 35) and AdTranz (the 18 additional). All are basically identical AC Motored articulated LRV's. Big, white and dependable. 96% availablilty.
Nice, electric and non-diesel. I still miss green PCC's.
heypaul, I was there but did not see you. I did see mr Slant r-40 as I was passing through Liberty Park stop. did not get to talk to him.
I bought a ticket when i got ther (silly me) but I actually made 50 cents on the deal. There were $2.00 in change in the ticket slot that someone had left there. It was enjoyable. Sorry I missed you.
Peace,
Andee
Can't believe none of you fellow SubTalkers mentioned the realy important part of the inaugural celebration ... all the free stuff !
A friend was there who maneuvered his way up front & even shoot hands with Gov. Christine Todd Whitman's, here's a list of the stuff:
- H-B LRV, cardboard bank w/pantigraph
- H-B pass holder ... "Inaugural Celebration"
- H-B hat, painters style
- H-B post card ... "Wish You Were Here"
- H-B "Get the Connection" brochure & route map
- H-B LRV on it's tail ... "Launch", it's a card
- H-B time table
- 16 page insert in the Jersey Journal, i.e. article w/adv.
- H-B "Opening Ceremony ..." program
- The Provident "Bee Hive Bank"
To my collector friends, I'm sorry to say that I only was given one of each, execpt the cardboard car which is promised to Doug the BMT Man, especially since it's the same scale as his R-44s. He will have to modify it so it can use the 3rd rail ;-)
Mr t
Oh I forgot:
- Red H-B pen, also with likeness of car
- Shopping bad NJTransit vs. H-B
Mr t__:^)
I would of mentioned it had I realized they were giving away so much. But, I usually am not interested in such stuff, just more junk cluttering up the apartment 'ya know. I did see the hats around however.
Peace,
Andee
Andre, That's exactly what my wife is going to say :-)
Now our friend Heypaul doesn't have that problem.
Mr t
thurston... although i don't have a wife to complain about my strange collections, i never accept any free giveaways... i learned my lesson several years ago when i was given a cheap pen at an old time radio convention.. months later i discovered that it really was a radio transmitter, designed by the c.i.a. to keep me under 24 hour satellite surveillance...
the cia radio pen was given to you by mr. alan glick !!
watch out for that guy he is the
one who passes out transmitter pens !!
you forget the post-its and cases of water given out at exchance place as you boarded the train
Guess my friend drank the water & kept the post-its.
P.S. Also forgot to mention a "Inagural Celebration" "Commemorative Ticket - Valid on Saturday, April 15, 2000" stamped the 15th at 14:11
(forgot the ticket because it's already in my collection )
Mr t__:^)
Unstamped tickets will be worth more
about two years ago, i was in boston walking around aimlessly like many people who are under heavy sedation... i was around fenway park, and i went into what i thought was a bowling alley... it was a bowling alley, but the people were rolling a very small ball, and the pins were more like cylinders rather than bowling pins... i was afraid to ask anyone, since they were looking at me suspiciously from the moment i walked in pushing my waldbaum's shopping cart filled with all my possessions, asking if they had any shower facilities...
what was the name of the game they playing?
I think it called candle stick. I never played the game but I have seen it on cable when visiting family in NH.
BTW - Good to have to back.
I think it called candle stick. I never played the game but I have seen it on cable when visiting family in NH.
BTW - Good to have you back.
That would be candlepin bowling. Never went myself, looked more difficult to me and I'm already bad at regular bowling.
Candlepin is worth trying once (only), and I suggest a couple of beers to go with it.
It's candle pins.
There are 3 balls per frame and they leave in the dead wood. However, because of the relative size of the pins and the balls, scores are generally much lower than standard 10 pin.
SUBWAY TALK GOOF !!!!!!!!!!!!!
1. Don't SHOUT! All Capital letters in a post is like shouting on the telephone.
2. Down in the Mid-Atlantic region we call it duckpins. The big bowling companies are shutting down their duck lines because it's too small to take nationally.
Duckpins in Baltimore went hand-in-hand with streetcars, because we rode them to get to the good alleys.
I knew it as duckpins as well. It's tougher than regular tenpin bowling because the pins are spaced the same as in tenpins even though they're smaller, plus the ball is smaller. I'll say this much: you could roll that ball with great velocity. There was a duckpin bowling center in Cheshire, CT where we lived, and St. Joseph's Church in Waterbury had a duckpin alley in their school basement.
glad to find this page,any one fresh pond road depot----i workd there years ago ---driving in fla. now
bear
Go to the top and click on "bus talk" see what you find.
It is Saturday night, and all SubTalkers should know what that means...
SUBTALK LIVE AT METROCARD.CJB.NET!!!
Please join us for at least a few minutes if you can!!!
Anyone knows when will this project be finished?? And what kind of services will arise from it??
Look in the message archive...this question gets asked just about every week!
OK...you don't want to look. The answer (once again): The connector should be completed before the end of the year, and will initially be used for diversions. Regular service will begin next year, but the decision as to what service(s) will run through the connector has not been made yet.
David
Whenever that question is asked, I know we have a rookie on SubTalk!
YES! You are very keen my friend! But there are just so many other postings there!
The gun is now loaded, and I'm struggling to stop myself from pointing it straight at my head. Is this not the most annoying repetative question ever posted to subtalk?
No, it isn't.
Oh I forgot. That question would be: "What's up with that Manhattan Bridge?"
Well, those are the two most frequently asked questions, anyway.
First of all, it was wet.
But not to take away from heypaul's earlier musings I found it an interesting experience (I came all the way from the N.E. Bronx to try it out). The trolleys in the Bronx were just about gone when I was born in the early 1950's so other than at Branford I never got to ride them.
I can understand those people who were protesting the line especially since it runs right by their apartment buildings but quite frankly those cars are so quiet if you don't know they are going by I don't think you'd know they are going by (unless they ring the bell or sound the horn).
I took the 34th St train from Exchange Place (Paul - funny joke - Exchange Place Manhattan - a street so narrow if you sneezed you would miss it). The crawling around those many curves is sure to get on a lot of people nerves especially when the are trying to get to the PATH train. The stopping at traffic lights is to be expected when you are running at the surface and cross streets. I just wonder if people like to jump stop lights out there.
IOn the way back I got off at Liberty State Park and changed for the West Side Avenue line - Talk about crowded. Haven't these people ever heard of "Stand aside and let the passengers off"?
I can see it on Monday - there is going to be pushing and shoving as
those who used to take local buses or drive take the LR. To those people I say - welcome to the wonderful world of rail rapid transit.
I have to laugh. Ticket Inspectors!!!! You buy the ticket, insert it into a slot to have the Date and Time and station stamped on it. You then have 90 minutes to use it. These guys are really going to check these things if those cars get crowded? Lotsa luck. On the timetables they even warn that the tickets may be checked more than once on your trip. Since the tickets will not be collected they are going to experience what we in NYC already see with the MetroCard. Expired tickets just thrown on the ground.
I wonder how the line will survive a heavy rain or snow. It will be stopped in its tracks but such is the life of a light rail system.
Well, so much for my rantings (I'm not boring you am I?). All in all it was a nice experience.
I will go back one day when the weather is better and maybe take some pictures.
The protesters were protesting the sound the train makes on curves. If you watch Dave Pirrman's video you will see it. You didn't hear the sound because the rails were wet (for some reason that prevents it, I don't know why. That is why water is shot at the rails at the S. Ferry loop.)
It wasn't that noisy yesterday. Certainly no louder than regular traffic.
-Hank
The HBLR cars were dead quiet, even on the S curve near Marin Boulevard and the 90-degree dreadnought at Essex Street station.
I would guess things are going to be different in dry weather.
More on my HBLR experience in my next post...
Wayne
Could it also be because the cars run extremely close to their side of the street? As I see it the northbound cars are just about inches from the curb. I would be concerned if I had rail cars that close to where I live (kids running in the street etc).
I guess in time they will get used to it. For all we know some wise guy in NJT's legal dept might suggest putting up some sort of fence along that street to prevent accidents (if it was the MTA it would have been done already - those legal guys are afraid of their own shadow).
SubForum, formerly known as Off Subtalk, which was planned as a venue onto which to move off topic conversations (and not flame fests with the Subway Pornographer) is being taken offline no earlier than Tuesday. Until then, you can try it out, which might extend it's existance, perhaps indefinitely, if there are posts.
To post (membership NOT required), send mail to post@subforum.cjb.net
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And I did invite some people who participated in Off topic threads, many didn't respond, why?
two of your links in blue did not work ...This does not mean you did not post in blue the links correctly..............
it just means that they are not working !! ......not looking for blame and or fault ..........
( the e mail connection did work ) and off topic happens all the time !!...
even on subtalk !! ok after a third try one didnt work !! finally i posted on another.........( oh well )........
z
"What are the possible first and last letters of a route on the 'A' Division?"
Did I get it right, Alex?
Sorry, you lose. THe correct question is "What are the possible first and last letters of a route on the 'B' Division?"
-Hank
That's why I placed a zero bet, Alex.
I hope the MTA will replace those ugly Redbirds soon! I know they are old, and maybe also reliable for years, but I would like to see the kind of cars that run on the (1,3,9,4,6... you know what I'm talking about!) to run on the (2,5,7)... maybe more for the 7 since the MTA is coming out with new fleets for the (2,5) right?
Ugly?
they may be old, and they are reliable, but they are not ugly! They are the most distinctive beautify trains that the MTA has today! Take your R-62s and your R-142 but they can never fulfill that feeling of riding a redbird
They don't look so bad on the outside, only the small windows are ugly and the WF cars fix that problem. The inside is horrid.
All IRT cars are the same. The only external difference (physically) between the WF Redbirds and the R62 is the stainless steel construction. Even the R142 is the same size and shape, with the same windows...
-Hank
the beautiful redbirds will always be with me...................on vidieo.!!
i will be there again this fall riding greyhound from california all the way to new york .........
home sweet home and my birthplace november 03 1951.......
then i will re vidieo tape 2...5.....4.....6......7... hopefully the A and N ..... all in 5 hour formats on sony and fuji 150 8mm
tape with my rebuilt sony tr 86 with 0.6 light lux ...........!!!... man you should see how she lights up dark tunnels !!
so i say put up and or shut up do what i do better than i do !!! some of you out there have already given me
excellent reviews !! ( thank you my supporters and redbird .com railfan window fan club ) FROM YOUR PRESIDENT I WANT TO THANK YOU ALL !!! ........Also A very nice man ordered the whole collection and sent me a large donation how about that folks ??
how about that mr hank and the killfile transverse cab styrofoam built r - 142 subway car club inc...???
finally my thanks to subtalk and nyc subway . org and david pirmann the webmaster !! ( thank you !! ) .........
04/16/2000
[i will be there again this fall riding greyhound from california all the way to new york .........
home sweet home and my birthplace november 03 1951.]
Salaam,
Brooklyn, New York, also my birthplace on August 4,1951. I'm 3 months older than you! When you tape in the NY Metro area, don't forget the HBLR line.
Bill Newkirk
QUESTION............( hank ) are you a HBLR.......? & whats the phone number to this U.F.O.? ....
...... @ Salaam Allah 3 months younger !!. ........ my father is older than me ..! he was born in new york too !
hell we are all YANKEES !!.............sure didnt tell them this when i lived in atlanta !!
Salaam Allah 3 months younger !!. ........ my father is older than me ..!
Well, I should hope so :)
--Mark
look man !!.......... hank said he was 3 months older so i threw that in for laughs ( lighten up )...........
...and U said U were over 50
right !!
Your exact words,
>>>i will be there again this fall riding greyhound from california all the way to new york .........
home sweet home and my birthplace november 03 1951.......
<<<
i threw that in for laughs
... and you got some ...
--Mark
question do you use a tripod when you shoot your subway vidieos ??
and i use a sony tr 86 tr 940 and trv66xr to shoot with on 4 hour lp mode
what vidieo cameras do you use ??
I don't use a tripod. You're looking for trouble if you do. A tripod is considered ancillary equipment and more often than not, you WILL be asked what you're doing and if you have a permit to do that. Without the tripod, you usually come across as a tourist or some other nutjob who simply has a fascination with trains :)
I use a Sony TRV-65 Camera.
You carry THREE cameras with you? Why?
--Mark
first of all i don t carry all 3 three cameras that i own however it seems that the tr86 sony lit up the tunnels the best ..........
i used a tripod even with the nypd transit police fooking right at me .......... i do shoot vidieo and still at the same time !!
nothing happened !! two motormen one named mr allen on the dyre ave # 5 talked me to death and opened up his cab....
i shot his hands operating the controls and the operator of the E train did the same for me !!
using a tripod i set up at the end of the stations out of he way of crowds !!
i proped my tripod and vidieo camera against the front window and draped a towell around the lens to prevent
" glare back " i was never told i could not use my tripod however when i showed my press badge everybody whent
to sleep and left me alone ..............I LOVE NEW YORK HOME SWEET HOME !! ( and my bithplace )
no i did not shoot with 3 cameras at he same time !! no way !! how did you keep your camera stable without a tripod ??
Ahh,a press pass. That would explain it.
I have a pretty steady hand. And a camera with image stabilization helps immensely.
--Mark
i cant rely on that shooting in ..LP 8mm... format for 4 or 5 hours it is all i can do to keep the tripod down !!
since i shoot from one end of the line to another a tripod was the only choice !!
first of all i don t carry all 3 three cameras that i own however it seems that the tr86 sony lit up the tunnels the best ..........
i used a tripod even with the nypd transit police fooking right at me .......... i do shoot vidieo and still at the same time !!
nothing happened !! two motormen one named mr allen on the dyre ave # 5 talked me to death and opened up his cab....
i shot his hands operating the controls and the operator of the E train did the same for me !!
using a tripod i set up at the end of the stations out of he way of crowds !!
i proped my tripod and vidieo camera against the front window and draped a towell around the lens to prevent
" glare back " i was never told i could not use my tripod however when i showed my press badge everybody whent
to sleep and left me alone ..............I LOVE NEW YORK HOME SWEET HOME !! ( and my bithplace )
no i did not shoot with 3 cameras at he same time !! no way !! how did you keep your camera stable without a tripod ??
Ahh,a press pass. That would explain it.
I have a pretty steady hand. And a camera with image stabilization helps immensely.
--Mark
i cant rely on that shooting in ..LP 8mm... format for 4 or 5 hours it is all i can do to keep the tripod down !!
since i shoot from one end of the line to another a tripod was the only choice !!
correction i own four vidieo cameras carry one vidieo camera but one panorama 35mm and one dual format !!
( but i only shoot with one vidieo camera at a time !!) and how did you keep your camera stable without a tripod ??
i will send you a vidieo ! you have to use a tripod !! they did not bother me about this !
sorry if you misunderstood ..........my mistake.....maybe i did not make things clear !!
I was approached once on the 86th floor of the Empire State Building when I had my tripod set up, and was told I'd have to put it away if I didn't have a permit. OTOH, no one gave me any problems at the WTC.
Many places will not let you use a tripod... Even some museums ! many places vidieocameras are banned 100% !! This is true in many public places shows exhibits fairs and so on ! Vidieomaker Magazine has many vidieotographers complaining about how rude and nasty some of these security guards act everytime they see a vidieo camera in operation !! You would think you are stealing top secret information from a military installation !!
i am just thankful TA & the NYC subway system did not hassle me over this !!
04/20/2000
As far as the paranoia involved with security people harassing tourists, railfans etc goes, maybe there is a reason for that. Maybe there is that "ambush journalism" mentality that is popular today in which not just the news media, but the general public is out looking for someone or some company to EXPOSE !
Bill Newkirk
not bad ! ..... I do thank the motormen and motorwomen and the transit police in new york city who left me alone
when i shoot vidieo there !! tripod - vidieocamera and all !! .......... i love new york !!
04/17/2000
[look man !!.......... hank said he was 3 months older so i threw that in for laughs ( lighten up )........... ]
Sorry Salaam! That wasn't Hank who said he was 3 months older than you, that's me, Bill Newkirk! Now, is there someone on this site that is 3 months younger than to make me feel younger!!
Bill Newkirk
He isn't able to tell apart other people. He doesn't have the brainpower.
#1 flamage # 2 ad hominem attacks # 3 multiple insults ......!
Don't forget that the route sign on the R62 cars is located to the side of the end door, while on the Redbirds, the signs are above the door.
What about end gates? that all IRT cars always had and now R142s have broken a tradtion. Unless they are put on when they are put into actual service
..... you cannot attach metal gates to styrofoam !!
Oh, where there's a will, there's a way.-)
styrofoam end gates ....thats how they will do it !!
Actually the R110A was the first train to have no end gates. What's so great about end gates anyway? They detract from the car.
To wit, look at any Slant R40 and see the jungle gyms they have attached to their snouts. Preposterous, but absolutely necessary.
Wayne
(jungle gyms)
Well, I guess we've just found a possible second life for the Slant R-40s.
--Mark
04/17/2000
Maybe it's best that the time honored "pantograph gates" be replaced by the "boloney springs". After as was stated in an earlier post about a thug riding between the cars punching an innocent platform passenger, this wouldn't happen with "boloney springs".
Bill Newkirk
Gates are probably a holdover from the days of exterior door controls.
Pantograph gates are self-actuating. Couple two cars and the gate buffers contact. The between-cars protection is enabled.
Baloney springs must be hooked to each car end as the cars are coupled. Since that's an additional action, it's one more thing to remember to do.
End gates have always been a definate charcteristic of a NYCTA subway car espaially in IRT division since they all have them and as you know the R110s are not in service on the IRT division
Only on the IRT. As delivered, the R40 was the first without gates. The R44/46, R68/68A continue not to have gates.
-Hank
FINALLY I AGREE WITH YOU .........!!!
The feeling of your car tipping over , the ear piercing screech the feeling of your car splitting in half.
You'll never get that feeling anywhere else without being in an accedent
i agree !!
They looked better in MTA blue-silver, and World's Fair colors. The aqua color on the inside looked so much better than the tan color now.
Their days are numbered. You'll be getting bland, shiny R62 cars in the near future, replacing the venerable redbirds. I certainly will miss them (except for those R33S rolling ovens).
UGLY? You want to see UGLY, take a look at the front end of a Slant R40! That's not ugly, that's PLUG UGLY. Anyway, the Redbirds, while they won't win a beauty contest, certainly aren't as nondescript-looking as the R62/R62A, and the R142, with the eyeliner around the head lights - that's UGHLY!
Wayne
Speaking of ugly..NOTHING is as ugly as the old "C" units that the BMT used to have..and I only know them from pictures! From what I've heard, they rattled and growled and swayed as bad as anything.....
Never saw a "C" type, but did see "Q" types.
Speaking of uglies - No BMT Standard I've ever seen would win a beauty contest, especially in their later days.
Wayne
I have pictures of new Standards in my "Cars of the BMT" book. When new, they were quite attractive.
Yes, you have a point there - after a while the BMT Standards acquired a patina of grime and munge that made them look absolutely dreadful.
I do wish they'd have kept the milk-glass shades on the lights like (some of them) originally had. The picture of the 1924-26 Illinois Central commuter car that I downloaded has these same shades. Quite attractive. Perhaps they were too much of a bother for the BMT to maintain.
Wayne
04/17/2000
[Yes, you have a point there - after a while the BMT Standards acquired a patina of grime and munge that made them look absolutely dreadful]
Do I detect some BMT Standard bashing here? When the standards were steel dusted they looked rather normal. There was no rust or graffitti like today. Even in the rain they looked cool. It's been 31 years since they ran and boy do I miss them.
Bill Newkirk
Bill,
I'm with you when it comes to the Standards. I guess if all you are used to is the postwar cookie-cutter SMEE cars with no distinctive sounds (bull and pinion gears, brakes, whistles)or looks, you just can't appreciate what a unique beauty, so ahead of its' time it was.
Just compare the "living room" like design of the interior seating of the AB compared to the park bench like seats of so many of the SMEE cars. Boy do I miss those cars along with the D-types!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Although I did like to ride the standards and did go outta my way to ride 'em on the Canarsie Line and the Culver Shuttle There were no better subway cars than the original IND cars, the R1-R9's!!!!!
and look how long they lasted !!..............especially when you were 5,6,7,years old the railfan window was child frendly !!
( aslo the beautiful sounds the motors made ).........
Amen to that. If you don't have heypaul's tape, I highly recommend it. It brings those cars back to life, complete with all the marvelous sounds they gave off.
Of course, I rate the R-10s as being in a dead heat with the R-1/9s for my all-time favorite cars.
Physically, maybe. But from my experience (limited to sitting in motionless museum cars and looking at old photos), the Standards were much more exciting cars. The R1/9 cars were downright boring.
Having ridden on both classes in revenue service, I can say there were similarities between the BMT standards and R-1/9s. Their bull and pinion gear sounds were identical. So were their air compressors. The brakes and doors were different. R-1/9s had their trademark "tch-hsssss" magnet valve sounds as they came to a stop, which would be heard as many as three or four times. BMT standards would give off a "tchhhhhhhh" sound just as they came to a full stop. On the R-1/9s (and R-10s, for that matter), you could hear the door locks release as the conductor pulled the first of two triggers, then a "ksssss" sound of hissing air just before the doors opened. When their doors closed, you'd hear them lock, then the "psht" of the load sensing valve (the R-10s had the high-pitched "beep" sensing valve). There were no such sounds on the BMT standards. Once in a while, you could hear a sound similar to opening a curtain as their doors opened. I'm pretty sure you could hear the doors lock after they had closed, along with a soft sigh which could have been the load sensing valve. I do remember that the doors on the standards opened and closed smoothly and quietly, a bit on the slow side. Someone mentioned that their doors opened and closed faster before they were rebuilt in 1959-60.
The BMT standards seemed to be a bit quieter than the R-1/9s; however, part of it may have been the difference in trackbeds between IND and BMT lines (ballasted track vs ties in concrete).
My vote goes to the R-1/9s, given a choice between the two.
in capital letters now IF ONLY ALL OF THOSE GOOD OLD CLASSICS WERE ROLLING
NOW IN MUSEUM RUNS !! ..........how about that ???
04/19/2000
Well Salaam, there is a NYC Subway centennial celebration coming up in 2004, that seems like a good reason for a museum trip as you described. With the B-types undergoing restoration by hard working volunteers in Coney Island shops, running the museum cars would be the best way to celebrate 100 years of subway service.
Let's keep our fingers crossed and see if this happens!
Bill Newkirk
It's too bad that more Hi-Vs weren't saved. They would be a logical choice for a centennial anniversary railfan trip, since they opened subway service in 1904 along with the Composites. In fact, I'll bet Seashore's 3352 ran on Day One. Perhaps the museum Lo-Vs could be fixed up in time.
I've already marked my calendar for Wednesday, Oct. 27, 2004. One way or another, I will be on hand.
if the run all the museum trains .........I WILL BE THERE OR BUST .....!!
They'd better get cracking on the D-Types too.
Maybe while they're at it they can cobble together a train of Pre-1965 "B" division stuff, like some R16s and maybe an R27/30 or two.
Wayne
I'd give anything to take just one more ride on an R16 along the J route. Would bring back a lot of memories ...
No doubt signed up as a #15, right? With or without the slanted door pockets?
04/21/2000
[No doubt signed up as a #15, right? With or without the slanted door pockets]
Absolutely without those slanting door panels!!
Bill Newkirk
With the slanted pockets. Covered in grafitti, with the 1969-ish multi-colored rollsigns and at least 2 doors broken. This is how I remember those cars.
That's about how they looked in 1986 when I rode on them for the second time. At least all the doors opened in the car I was in. Back in 1967, the R-16s still wore their original olive drab, were clean, and had their BMT number curtains. And straight panels by the doors.
They'd probably run them on the Manhattan lines, so more people can see them. Or on the Franklyn or Rockaway S's, or the C if there aren't enough operational R-16s, 27-30s, or of course R10s combined to make a full 10 car train. An R-10 on a Rockaway S, maybe to Euclid?
Returning blue to existing fleet (R-32, R-38, R40, R42, R44, R46, and the last train of R-33s and R-36s)
Just dreaming...
Au contrare! I actually LIKED quite a few things about the BMT Standards, the few times I rode them. Unfortunately, towards the end of their lives, they kind of went to seed. This is true of most classes of rolling stock NYCT has had over the years.
I liked the interior of the BMT Standard best, with the big fat fans, mixed red vinyl and wicker seats (R-7 had this too), bars in some cars, swing handholds in others, and that little white lite over the side door. The thing that I found most lacking was no front signs. But back then they weren't carried on any cars; not until the "D" type (1928) did they make an appearance.
Bash them? Not really. They were workhorses, right to the end.
Wayne
Only the R32 will eclipse their longevity record. No other car type will see 50 years of service like the Standards did.
The Gibbs Hi-Vs all made it to 50 years.
Yeah, but they were built like tanks. The Redbirds were built with lighter materials.
-Stef
You got that right. When you stop and think about it, just about all passenger rail cars were built like tanks back then. The BMT standards had steel, steel, and more steel. The Redbirds have steel and LAHT steel.
Many other cars served 50+ years. In addition to the Hi-Vs
that SteveB mentioned, and the Standards, the Q types lasted
63 years, and NYERR 41 / G was in service for 77 years!
the r-142s wont last 1/3 rd that long !!
1 half more or less
In terms of steel subway equipment, the Gibbs Hi-Vs are the longevity champions. I don't know of any that were prematurely scrapped, so one can assume that every one of them lasted 50 years. The BMT standards were on the subway scene as a fleet for 54 years, but very few of them lasted 50 years on an individual basis.
The Qs are the champions of the wooden el car class.
04/19/2000
[Bash them? Not really. They were workhorses, right to the end. ]
I wasn't ticked off, just kidding!
Bill Newkirk
You're telling me. When I first saw a train of BMT standards on July 20, 1967, I thought they were the most godawful-looking things known to man. And no signs up front! Then, when I started commuting to the city on Saturdays, the "to BMT" signs at 14th St.-8th Ave. looked enticing - until we got to the platform and I saw those same BMT standards again. Ooohhhhhh noooooooo. At least their compressors and bull and pinion gears sounded just like the R-1/9s. Even so, I hoped we'd bail at Union Square after school so we could change to a BMT train "with letter markings up front", preferably an N.
I've come to appreciate the BMT standards now, especially after finding out just how tough and indestructible they were. They would come out on top in a subway car demoltion derby - unless, of course, you threw in a Triplex for good measure.
IMHO, the R32's are ugly. Rolling garden sheds they are. Performance wise, they're awesome.
When they had their blue doors and analog bulkhead signs, they looked nice. But now they look ugly. The original bright red scheme of the R33s was also nice. Too bad dirt and graffitti ruined them. The peeling Redbird paint and rust makes them look bad today. They gotta go.
Nothing could compare with the R-32s as originally delivered for good looks, especially their blue doors. I miss them terribly.
Nah, the new R42's, with the blue stripe and doors and GIGANTIC colored front route signs looked even better.
If you want to see something really ugly, come to Philadelphia and see the new Market-Frankford subway trains. The old "Almond Joys" were beautiful.
Are not ugly!
(mayby they could use new interiors)
Clearly the trains on the #7 line were the best looking cars (when new) that the NYCT ever purchased. Even the utilitarian shape & style couldn't detract from the World's Fair baked enamel finish, not to mention the picture windows (first NYCT car so equiped). Even other cars with unique styling like the R-11, R-32, R-46 and D type are, in my estimation, just close runner-ups to the R-33 & R-36 WF cars. I hated that they were painted white when the graffiti was removed and am sorry that they are ending their days lumped in with the real redbirds.
Maybe if the WF Redbirds are to get one more paint job before their retirement, someone in the TA's purchasing department could `accidentally' order some teal blue and white paint to be delivered to the Corona and Coney Island yards instead of the normal red and black paint.
Of course, `acidentally' ordering 400 or so 1964 TA plaques for the outside of the cars could be a little tougher to slip past the bean counters :)
And how 'bout accidentally painting "State of Kansas" or "State of Vermont" on those cars!!
I,d prefer a two tone almond and tangerine or almond and apricot.
Some thing remenicient of a creamsicle!
avid
I'd be happy with a teal and white finish, with one wide teal band going around the lower portion of the car with a narrow teal band at the belt rail. Too bad that scheme didn't last long; it was my favorite.
Opening day was great! I plan on going back for a detailed exploration once the line settles down.
Question: Does anyone have the radio frequencies for this line. I asked NJT personnel at the scene and they did not know.
Just courious guys and ladies. How are the trial tests for the new R-142 cars going? Have any problems come up with the new cars?
Hey, did anyone see the article in todays CITY section of the times. It tells of a Colunbia professor who has developed a method of removing scratchitti by melting it off the window without removing the window from the car
HELLO:
I HAVE JUST BEEN HIRED TO DRIVE THE SUBWAY TRAINS IN TORONTO AND
HAVE FOUND LOTS OF COOL STUFF ON YOUR SUBWAYS.
DOES ANYONE NOW IF THE LIGHT SYSTEMS ARE THE SAME IN TORONTO AS NYC,
I START TRAINING IN THREE WEEKS ID LIKE TO JUMP START THIS.
THANK YOU
VICTOR
victor do your trains have railfan windows and does your system allow vidieo cameras ?? thank you
salaamallah ......
One tip- your keyboard has a key labeled Caps Lock. Turn off the all capital letters! to many web users using all caps is considered "Shouting" and is considerd impolite.
Victor ... good luck to you!
I'm not sure of the answer to this one ... I think so ... I'll check at home.
Will you be "on the road" by the week of May 15th?
--Mark
not by then,,,,,,6weeks training....
why may 15th?
victor
discussed off-line ....
--Mark
Beware,Mark. According to Anon_E_Mouse, T.T.C. is a teenager in the us, as his e-mail is @home.com, just like his. If he was from Canada, his e-mail would have @homeCanada.com.
Beware,Mark. According to Anon_E_Mouse, T.T.C. is a teenager in the us, as his e-mail is @home.com, just like his. If he was from Canada, his e-mail would have @homeCanada.com.
Eh?
Home.com hosts cablemodem email addresses for both the US and Canada. The HomeCanada.com domain belongs to a real estate company.
CH.
Then that's a recent change - I have some printed @Home material that I received last June when I connected to them on which I based my statement to Dan. If indeed I am in error, I apologize to T.T.C.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Umm, thanks ... I talked to TTC offline. He won't be on the road by then anyway.
--Mark
My apologies also. I was relying on info I got from another SubTalk poster that I'm friends with.
@homeCanada?
Everybody I know here in Toronto, and surrounding areas (Pickering, Oshawaw etc.) who subscribe to the @home service all have xyz@home.com for their e-mail addresses. @homeCanada is nonexistant. Likely if there were to be a distinction for Canadian @home subscribers, it would probably take the form of @home.ca, utilizing the correct country indicator.
-Robert King.
The News used the opening of the Hudson-Bergen light rail to do an editorial today calling for a "One Region, One Fare" system, which would allow Metrocard use on the new light rail lines, along with PATH and the Newark city subway.
The downside of this, they admitted, was the PATH fare would have to go up to $1.50, to match the fares of the other three systems. The upside would be people in the city outside of the WTC, lower west side and Herald Square areas could ride to and from New Jersey for only one fare, while those is Jersey City or Newark going to Shea Stadium, for example, could do the same.
(I suppose they could create a free transfer between the PATH and the IND/BMT at 34th St., 23rd and 14th streets and with the IRT No. 1 train at the WTC, if all the fares were being tabulated on computer. Then they would just have to calculate a fare usage formula to divide up the revenues for those stations.)
The editorial pointed out the MTA and Port Authority already are cooperating on computerized toll collections with E-Z Pass, so a Metrocard link-up would not be unprecedented.
I have my doubts it's going to happen, but it sounds like a great idea, and possibly the first step towards actually intergrating PATH and the IRT sometime in the future (like, say, a No. 7 train to the Meadowlands or a PATH route from Journal Square to 59th St. and Lexington Ave.)
Anyone else have any ideas about the "One Fare" plan?
Sounds good! Then people w/ MC can get off Amtrak at Newark to go to WTC instead of going all the way 2 midtown.
Can't they do that already without a metrocard?
Nope, PATH cost $1.00 ... there's a gate for you to insert PATH pass, coin or bills.
Mr t__:^)
It sounds like a good idea to me. PATH's bargain fare is less of a bargain as many PATH riders end up paying an extra fare for subway transfers. That's probably more of an issue with people going to 33rd Street, as most Midtown work places are beyond convenient walking distance. I suppose PATH riders heading to WTC would complain more, as fewer of them pay a subway fare.
The current PATH situation is a ripoff for New York, and there can never by any bi-state co-operation while it continues. The one-region-one fare would also favor NJ, since NJ residents are more likely to benefit than New York City residents. Still, the inequity would be diminished, so on balance it's a good idea.
[The current PATH situation is a ripoff for New York, and there can never by any bi-state co-operation while it continues. The one-region-one fare would also favor NJ, since NJ residents are more likely to benefit than New York City residents. Still, the inequity would be diminished, so on balance it's a good idea.]
Would it be? I assume that most PATH riders pay an extra $1.50 to ride the subway. That would result in a net decrease in MTA revenues. Then too, if the fare were split evenly, the Port Authority subsidy would have to increase to make up the difference between 75 c and $1.00, and some of that would come from New York without benefitting many New Yorkers.
It seems to me that if we're to combine access to the two systems, something I favor, we either have to charge $2.50 for access to both systems to at least maintain the status quo or equalize the way the PA allocates its subsidies to benefit New Yorkers equally.
A "one fare" plan would completely undercut the goals of the current "two fare" system, namely We don't want New Yorkers in our State, GO AWAY!! If we are going to be the butt of your jokes, rants and finger pointing then I guess you'll have no problem staying out of our horrid state. If you DO want to come over you'll have to fork over the extra buck (for a meanness penalty) as well as eat a piece of humble pie (currently under trials by the PA). You have every right to demand that Jerseyans also pay a $1.50 meanness penality (and or enjoy a knuckle sandwitch) to keep us out of your smelly cess pool city. If our two people's were to get full access to the transit systems on both side of the river violence and mayhem would result. Let's not try and shake things up. Let us instead stick with the same old deal. People from NJ will pay one fare, limit their travels to the areas around Penn Station or the WTC and leave by 6 PM. You guys just stay on your side of the river because NJ has nothing to offer you anyway.
Good idea! Would be a good idea to terminate PATH at Christofer street so there would be no chance of NYorkers to use it :-)
Arti
They can use it in NYC, we just don't want them comming across the river.
[They can use it in NYC, we just don't want them comming across the river.]
Cool, let's just cut the tunnel. Save us in NY a lot for something we don't use, and guess what, we won't even notice, except that there won't be as many obnoxious bridge and tunnels trying unsuccessfully to get into the clubs. What, do I hear a complaint from someone who commutes from Jersey and lives off New York while we foot the bill? Awe, shucks.
[A "one fare" plan would completely undercut the goals of the current "two fare" system, namely We don't want New Yorkers in our State, GO AWAY!! If we are going to be the butt of your jokes, rants and finger pointing then I guess you'll have no problem staying out of our horrid state. If you DO want to come over you'll have to fork over the extra buck (for a meanness penalty) as well as eat a piece of humble pie (currently under trials by the PA). You have every right to demand that Jerseyans also pay a $1.50 meanness penality (and or enjoy a knuckle sandwitch) to keep us out of your smelly cess pool city. If our two people's were to get full access to the transit systems on both side of the river violence and mayhem would result. Let's not try and shake things up. Let us instead stick with the same old deal. People from NJ will pay one fare, limit their travels to the areas around Penn Station or the WTC and leave by 6 PM. You guys just stay on your side of the river because NJ has nothing to offer you anyway.]
Funny, there's a PATH station a block away from me, the fares only a dollar, and I haven't noticed many New Yorkers heading out to New Jersey. It's all the other way around.
As for smelly, ever drive past Elizabeth?
The smell is not from Elizabeth. There isn't enough big industry still in the city to cause it.
Even if there is no agreement on a regional 'one fare', it's still a very good idea to have one electronic fare collection system for mass transit in the NYC/NJ area. Even if it doesn't make travel cheaper, it will make it easier. The big expense for the PANYNJ would be in adapting the PATH fare equipment to accept metrocards. But the PATH fare could remain $1 or be changed to any other amount. I don't see how metrocard could work in a zoned fare bus or rail system like NJT.
It wouldn't-just like it doesn't work on Metro-North or the LIRR, BUT NJT Rail could offer deals like MN/LIRR do(i.e. buy a monthly and get a discounted or FREE MC). The whole idea makes real sense, I was surprised and pleased when I saw the News editorial- so of course, it probably wont get done....NJT could also revise their bus fare system & collection....
A splendid idea! How nice that someone is proposing this! The idea that the PATH should continue to charge a separate fare is as reasonable as Balkanising the TA back into three non transferable divisions. Happily ther electronic farecards can be read by machines without regard to political subdivisions.
(Happily ther electronic farecards can be read by machines without regard to political subdivisions).
Perhaps we can further support sensible regionalism by cutting NYC school spending to make up for any shortfalls in TA revenue due to the free transfers. Since per student spending is already far lower than anywhere in New Jersey, and New Jerseyians deserve decent educations and affordable transit, that seems like a good proposal to me. Perhaps Sheldon Silver will take it up.
Education equity(laugh) should not be hostage to transit or any other line item. As to the regional allocation of TOTAL resources, I am sure were either you or I tsar, it would be very different. That said, the day in day out reduction of the "second" fare for PATH/TA users and MNCR or LIRR users within the 5 boros is no less justifiable than it was for patrons who had to pay a bus fare to reach the subway before the Metrocard farecard/free transfer happened. When I lived on 11th between B & C it was an extra fare to get over to Union Square to catch the IRT whether I used the MABSTOA or Ave B & E Bway transit. It was a ripoff. Now as to fee splitting between NY & NJ I suspect you and I are closer rather than farther apart. When the 5 boros become the 51st state the chess board will be very different!
[When the 5 boros become the 51st state the chess board will be very different!]
It seems that sleazy upstate politicians campaign for secession from New York City. They're lying through their slimy teeth, of course--their communities are dependent on the City and dying because of statewide porkbarrel spending--but why not have them put their money where their mouths are?
Actually, it seems to me that the entire Metro area--in both NY and NJ--should become a new state. That would end the problem of way-out-of-touch upstate government and out-of-date political divisions that hurt the entire region. And it would benefit everyone currently in both states, because the smaller the state, the more representation one has in the senate: we'd immediately gain two senators.
If you find it at your local library, in 1971(72?), a book called the People's Almanac had a map that some academic type proposed regarding redrawing the borders of the states.It was based on the idea that most state borders were drawn up back when a river was a real barrier to transportation and trade, and that most are now totally irrelevant to the needs of the people. For example, instead of todays borders, there would be a state called "Hudson", which would be comprised of todays NYC,LI, New Jersey south to around Exit 8 or 9 on the Turnpike, New York State north to Orange and Dutchess (maybe Ulster..), and the west part of Connecticut. A VERY interesting looking map, and a LOT of it makes a LOT of sense....
(Downstate New York leaves New York State and joins New Jersey).
I've thought about this one myself, especially since New Jersey (since the Dems and Republicans are on razor edge there and in competition) is a better run state than New York.
At the time I looked at it, Downstate New York was a little richer than New Jersey, but has a higher share of dependent poor people also. The latter fact may have been mitigated by drops in the welfare caseload. Since New Jersey commuters would benefit from the state taxes they pay, which now disappear in Albany, once could argue that New Jersey as well as Downstate New York would be better off.
While I didn't do any research to see if Upstate New York would be better off, it would be fair to assume such a division is in their interest too. After all, they are all hard working and we are a bunch of freeloaders, right? No calculations on the effect on Upstate would thus be necessary.
The problem is, I don't think we could make the rest of New York State keep our members of the state legislature.
Can't do it. There's this little part of the U.S. Constitution that says that no state can be created out of any other state. (Yes, they did conviently "forget" that part in 1863 when West Virginia was admitted, but that was during the Late Great Unpleasantness.)
There's this little part of the U.S. Constitution that says that no state can be created out of any other state
It can't be done "without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress."
We can argue whether the formation of West Virginia was Constitutional, given Virginia's then status as a separatist state, but Lincoln and his administration took a rather aggressive view of Federal power.
What about a "Merger" of states or a re-wroking of the borders. New Jersey could become the Metro Area. Pennsylvania could buy the part of NJ that wasn't metro. Unfortunitly for me this sounds perfectly legal.
This was my plan.
Philadelphia joins South Jersey in a new state: Penn Jersey
The rest of Pennsylvania becomes Sylvania
North Jersey, Downstate New York and Southwestern Connecticut become New York and the rest of NY becomes Baja Quebec or something.
Imagine a line following the coast of NJ about 10 miles inland from around South Amboy to the southern tip. The land between the ocean and this line would be a new state called "Jersey Shore." Afterall, isn't it called a "beach" everywhere else? There must be something different and unique about this area. :-)
The western-most northern counties of NJ become part of Pennsyl-tucky (part of a much larger land re-organization developed in college w/ a few friends that I will not go into now).
The rest of northern NJ joins the 5 bouroughs and southwestern Connecticut in the state of Gotham (the name is used often already, might as well make it official).
The rest of south Jersey joins with Philly and Deleware to become another state.
-- David
The only problem is that PA would never join with Del or NJ outright. The citizens of PA would never go for that because they NEED NJ and Del. Delaware is the home of Tax Free Shoping and NJ is the home of cheap, full serve gas and cheap alcohol. NJ and Del are the two beacons of hope in an already overtaxed North East.
I'm saying that PA gets part of NJ and another part of PA (Philadelphia) gets combined w/ DE and southern NJ. The people of PA who enjoy the benefits of NJ and DE are mostly in the Philly area so now they would all be part of the same area. Could make Philly the capitol of the tax-break North East.
Well the thing is that it sucks to LIVE in Delaware because they have a personal proterty tax to make up for the no sales tax. So the best deal is to live on the Delaware border. Remember you can't arange it so that nobody pays the tax because taxes need to be paid. The best you can do is get someone else to pay the tax like NJ does with the Turnpike.
There were a lot of things that the Yankees "conveniently forgot", as you put it, during the War of Northern Aggression. The Constitution was only one of them.
Lest we dredge up that discussion again, however, I will point out that, pursuant to the resolution by which the state of Texas was admitted to the Union, it has been specifically granted the power to divide itself into up to five separate states without further ratification by Congress. It does take a vote by the people of the state, IIRC. Of course, with the Texas ego being as big as it is, they'll never do it, since it takes a state that large to contain it :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Texas has some regions that have animosity towards each other, but nothing like upstate New York and NYC. However, the people of El Paso tend to think of themselves of the Staten Island of Texas, being one time zone and a bunch of mountains apart from the rest of the state, which tends to forget about the place until its time to find someone to take the garbage (like S.I.) and radioactive waste (fortunately not like S.I.).
(and radioactive waste)
There is one radioactive waste transfer station in New York State. It is located in Brooklyn.
[If you find it at your local library, in 1971(72?), a book called the People's Almanac had a map that some academic type proposed regarding redrawing the borders of the states.It was based on the idea that most state borders were drawn up back when a river was a real barrier to transportation and trade, and that most are now totally irrelevant to the needs of the people. For example, instead of todays borders, there would be a state called "Hudson", which would be comprised of todays NYC,LI, New Jersey south to around Exit 8 or 9 on the Turnpike, New York State north to Orange and Dutchess (maybe Ulster..), and the west part of Connecticut. A VERY interesting looking map, and a LOT of it makes a LOT of sense.... ]
LOL, which means it will never get done--too many fiefdoms would be disturbed, too much power swapped. They won't even approve direct election of the president.
You know, I'm not sure a proposal to redraw state borders is necesarily hopeless. So many states are split by intra-state rivalries, driven by the fact that different parts of the state have nothing in common.
Metropolitan New York, and whatever second home/watershed areas want in, is certainly a good candidate for a state. It has little in common with upstate, which is similar to Pennsylvania if you exclude the Philly area. I'd bet northern and southern California would love to get free of each other. And maybe we could finally lose a Dakota.
Get these people together in one room and tell me how similar they are:
1.) NJ Resident in Trenton/Philly area.
2.) NJ Resident in North/West corner of NJ.
3.) NJ Resident in Hudson/Bergen/Essex Co. etc. area.
4.) NJ Resident in Atlantic City/Cape May area.
All that they have in common is the "NJ Resident" part. They all can have a different "home" team; differnt definition of "the city"; differnt definition of normalcy in general.
New Jersey is so incredibly diverse. I'm sure the groups I mentioned above could be carved out even more, but you get the point. All NJ is is a buffer for many different areas.
-- Dave
One word answers:
1) Suburbanite
2) Ass hole suburbanite
3) Former suburbanite seeking outdoor adventure
4) Hick
BTW Mid Jersey residents are different from Philly area residents in that they are:
5) Ass hole suburbanite fleeing hi property taxes
[Get these people together in one room and tell me how similar they are:
1.) NJ Resident in Trenton/Philly area.
2.) NJ Resident in North/West corner of NJ.
3.) NJ Resident in Hudson/Bergen/Essex Co. etc. area.
4.) NJ Resident in Atlantic City/Cape May area.
All that they have in common is the "NJ Resident" part. They all can have a different "home" team; differnt definition of "the city"; differnt definition of normalcy in general.
New Jersey is so incredibly diverse. I'm sure the groups I mentioned above could be carved out even more, but you get the point. All NJ is is a buffer for many different areas. ]
I think the issue goes beyond diversity--many, though not all, states are diverse. Here in NY the political boundaries just don't work anymore. It's not hard to see why when you travel upstate--it's a completely different world with different concerns. The application of a big government model suitable for NYC (well, lots of caveats on that!) kills upstate and hurts the City both--I have a feeling both regions would prosper if they went their own ways.
Actually, it seems to me that the entire Metro area--in both NY and NJ--should become a new state.
No way, Jose.
All my life (26 years as a City resident, 28 years on Long Island) the only secession talk I've heard is from disgruntled NYC people of whom I was one.
There have always been two thoughts on NYC secession: NYC should be a separate state; or NYC should be a separate country.
Either way: fine. But when you talk of dragging along the region it translates to: "City Hall expects to be able to treat the entire region like 'wogs'"; the same way it treats everyone in the boroughs now, and indeed, people in Manhattan who are not part of the power structure.
If NYC wants to fantasize that it can fare better without Albany, do it. But do it clean--the five boroughs only--count me out.
[No way, Jose.
All my life (26 years as a City resident, 28 years on Long Island) the only secession talk I've heard is from disgruntled NYC people of whom I was one.
There have always been two thoughts on NYC secession: NYC should be a separate state; or NYC should be a separate country.
Either way: fine. But when you talk of dragging along the region it translates to: "City Hall expects to be able to treat the entire region like 'wogs'"; the same way it treats everyone in the boroughs now, and indeed, people in Manhattan who are not part of the power structure.
If NYC wants to fantasize that it can fare better without Albany, do it. But do it clean--the five boroughs only--count me out.]
AFAIK there's a rather massive outflow of income from Manhattan to the boroughs and pretty much to everyplace else, in transit and in other things. Is there any evidence that the City government *actually* favors Manhattan--and by that I don't mean in income-producing endeavors that wouldn't work anyplace else?
AFAIK there's a rather massive outflow of income from Manhattan to the boroughs and pretty much to everyplace else
You see, that's the typical Manhattan-centric point of view that has made NYC (really the Manhattan Power Structure) so arrogant and so beloved.
This money (as former Mayor Koch has admitted many times) in generated by businesses that are located in Manhattan. It is not "Manhattan's Money."
This money does not exist but for the workers who live overwhelmingly not in Manhattan. This money does not exist without the multitudes nationwide, indeed worldwide, who buy and use the products and services offered by these Manhattan-based businesses.
Manhattan is merely a venue, albeit an attractive one. Some of the attractiveness is a pool of workers in an entire region which overwhelms the numbers that actually live in Manhattan.
Let's lose this "Mother Manhattan" attitude which treats everyone, even its own boroughs, as "Mother England" used to treat its colonies.
And with the same lack of respect.
(This money (as former Mayor Koch has admitted many times) in generated by businesses that are located in Manhattan).
The attitude goes both ways. Outer borough pol's don't understand, and acknowledge, the important of the Manahattan economy to their own residents' employment and quality of life. If they did, Brooklyn's elected officials would have said something about the Manhattan Bridge once in 20 years. Brooklyn, Queens and Staten Island act as if they were economically independent.
Example -- the Brooklyn Historical Society is creating an exhibit on the economic history of Brooklyn sponsored in part by the Brooklyn Chamber of Commerce. They came in to see me. No matter what I said, they in no way wanted commuters, and the local stores and services supported by those commuters, to be part of the story. The history of Brooklyn is the history of manufacturing and the port, and is independent of Manhattan.
As for Manhattan residents, Manhattan has the highest personal income of any county in the country. No area of comparable wealth pays such high state and local taxes, has such poor schools, and has (on the east side) such a bad transporation system. So yes, Manhattan's money is redistributed out, and to the extend that some of NYC residents' income is being redistributed out of the city, that money is coming from Manhattan.
[Let's lose this "Mother Manhattan" attitude which treats everyone, even its own boroughs, as "Mother England" used to treat its colonies]
Don't count on it happening anytime soon. For all their supposed sophistication, the Manhattan elites (who of course are behind the "Mother Manhattan" 'tude) live highly sheltered, assuredly un-cosmopolitan lives. Many of them, quite possibly a majority, have never done what are totally mundane, everyday activities almost everywhere else in the United States - driving a car, shopping in a supermarket or a Wal*Mart, making mortgage payments, sending a child to a public school, and so on. Their very narrow life experiences have become transformed into an elitist, "we're-better-than-you" attitude. I wouldn't be surprised if many members of the Manhattan elite fully realize how narrow their lives are and adopt a supercilious attitude as a sort of defense mechanism.
[Don't count on it happening anytime soon. For all their supposed sophistication, the Manhattan elites (who of course are behind the "Mother Manhattan" 'tude) live highly sheltered, assuredly un-cosmopolitan lives. Many of them, quite possibly a majority, have never done what are totally mundane, everyday activities almost everywhere else in the United States - driving a car, shopping in a supermarket or a Wal*Mart, making mortgage payments, sending a child to a public school, and so on. Their very narrow life experiences have become transformed into an elitist, "we're-better-than-you" attitude. I wouldn't be surprised if many members of the Manhattan elite fully realize how narrow their lives are and adopt a supercilious attitude as a sort of defense mechanism.]
Those are the people I grew up with, and rest assured they drive (to that house in the Hamptons), make mortgage payments, and even go to the supermarket and take the subway on occasion. They are sheltered in that they're out of touch with the realities of middle class life, but their lives are hardly narrow--if anything, they're the opposite. As to that supercillious attitude, it's fairly hard to be a member of an elite without acquiring it. Actually, I'd say that the socially conscious NYC elite is much better in that respect than most, including the Washington elite, which is said to have total contempt for the voting public, and the old, fading and infinitely snobby WASP elite.
[AFAIK there's a rather massive outflow of income from Manhattan to the boroughs and pretty much to everyplace else
You see, that's the typical Manhattan-centric point of view that has made NYC (really the Manhattan Power Structure) so arrogant and so beloved.
This money (as former Mayor Koch has admitted many times) in generated by businesses that are located in Manhattan. It is not "Manhattan's Money."
This money does not exist but for the workers who live overwhelmingly not in Manhattan. This money does not exist without the multitudes nationwide, indeed worldwide, who buy and use the products and services offered by these Manhattan-based businesses.
Manhattan is merely a venue, albeit an attractive one. Some of the attractiveness is a pool of workers in an entire region which overwhelms the numbers that actually live in Manhattan.
Let's lose this "Mother Manhattan" attitude which treats everyone, even its own boroughs, as "Mother England" used to treat its colonies.
And with the same lack of respect.]
Except that that outflow of income has nothing to do with attitude or anything else--it's real, and applies to both Manhattan residents and Manhattan businesses. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter where income *comes from*--it seems to me perfectly appropriate for Manhattan to send tax money to other areas of the City and State. What does concern me is the matter of fairness. If someone lives in Manhattan and has a certain income, they should pay essentially teh same taxes and receive essentially the same services as someone who lives in Albany or Des Moines. That isn't the case; NYC residents are taxed through the nose, and even within the City a disproportionate share of services go to people in the other boroughs--disproprtionate not in total amount, but in benefits received as a basis of income level. Frankly, this sort of inequitable resource shift hurts residents of the other boroughs almost as much as it does people who live in Manhattan, and it makes little sense to me that you would support a system that ultimately hurts residents of all the boroughs.
Meanwhile, there's a fairly gross misapprehension about how services are allocated in the City. The cost of offering one fare subway service is just one of many examples where the complainers are actually receiving the lion's share of the benefits.
Would that mean liberation of South Jersey? Or, because the resulting "state" would not be viable would the non-Metro Jersey get sold to Pennsylvania?
[Would that mean liberation of South Jersey? Or, because the resulting "state" would not be viable would the non-Metro Jersey get sold to Pennsylvania?]
It might make sense to keep it separate. After all, the more states, the more power in the Senate. Or it could as you suggest become part of Pennsylvania.
...and if you would like to make it on topic: just replace "lightbulbs" with "subways" in the article below...
How many message posters does it take to change a lightbulb?
Oh God, Its like the exact history of this MB. Its sad when you think about it.
With the big dig funds in jeopardy, is this going to delay the 2001 opening of the North Station Superstation? -Nick
Hi all,
I didn't realize 2 of fantasy maps (Rush and Midday) was put up on this site recently, Wayne Whitehorne and I was working on it last year along with many feedbacks from you SubTalkers. Somehow I forgot all about these maps (5 timebased fantasy maps). This is why I got a lot of email telling me when will I add 3 other timebase maps) Evening, Weekends and Nights. my computer crashed few months ago and I don't have these maps, Wayne, do you still have all of 5 timebased maps? if so, could you file attach to me or will you go ahead and have Dave post the rest?
Thanks,
Mike the Mailman
The rush-hour fantasy map I think uses too many letters/numbers for the routes. For me I think it will lead to confusion IF people not familiar with the system are told to take this line, then that line, ..etc. I think it's better to just limit to 1 letter/number if the lines goes the same place. i.e. they should probably put the 2 to Dyre and 5 to 241 St since 5 is already an express during rush hours in the Bronx.
I have seen a "10" train pass by a couple of times on the Lexington line. No they weren't for revenue, but they were out-of-service silver ones (R62?) but for some reason the motorists decided to put a green "10" on the front or back.
I also find the fantasy map too cluttered. Besides that, I do not think that I share some of the fantasies.
But if the fantasies go so far, why not put on the weekend map a restoration of the Brighton-Franklin Express out of Fulton/Franklin to Coney Island, continuing via Sea Beach Express to wherever?
I've seen a 5 car set of R-62a s at Wakefield Yard, signed up as a ten at front, back, and sides. It was near the R-110a. I think the one of the car numbers was 1910.
Hi all,
Ever since I stopped making current time-based maps and converted to one map. I've gotten emails from you all that I should stick to time-based maps instead of one map. So this is the time to let me know if you all rather time-based maps or just one map? (I'm not talking about fantasy maps, I'm talking about current map(s))
Let me know.
Thanks,
Mike the Mailman
I feel that one non time based map is better. I love your maps, they are easy to understand and small enough to print on one page (Like the 1990-1997 version of the MTA map.)
-Harry
I love the time-based maps... Easy to explain if you get those folks who are open coming into town on weekends, for example.
Ultimately, of course, it's up to how much time you have to do it. I'd rather see some of your maps than none at all.
Michael
Keep them both, but if I had to pick, I'd go with the time-based maps.
dave
I like both, because then I can see the individual changes that occur at different times of the day on the time-based ones so I prefer them.
When the 63 Street extension to 21 Street Queensbridge open in October 1989 did they had that connection from 63 St to Broadway Line done at that time if it was done why couldn't they use a service between the two places at that time when service to 21 Street was open.(like the service they used for that special shuttle in 1999 they used Bway and 63 Street tracks)If you know write to me
Yes to question #1. Unnecessary to question #2.
When the tunnel was opened, the tunnel ran from 57 Street (6 & 7 Avenues) and 21 Street Queensbridge. There were lay up tracks after Queensbridge but the real work started in, I believe, 1994.
I believe the broadway connnection was always there, and at one point the local tracks were also connected to 63rd st.
The Broadway tracks lead to the area behind the wall at Lexington/63rd. They have to switch to the 6th ave tracks to be able to make the station. Too much switching is probably why they didn't run service through Broadway. If they did run the service, people would want it to be a Broadway Express, causing more switching north of Canal. Then, during rush hour, the combination of M, N, R, and the other service would clog up the Montague St. tunnel. Even running a service from 14st/B'way to 21st Queensbridge would be too short to be useful. When the S. Side of you-know-what bridge opens, I think the Q will be routed that way, like it was before the closing of that side.
Oh really? I've seen that there's room for tracks just north of the 57th St/7th Ave station on the outer sides of both local tracks of today. So these plus the 2 express tracks all go to 63rd St huh? Very interesting.
NOT! Way back , the plan was to have a line(BMT)run under the Western side of Central park to Mornigside Heights, it went not much further the Central Park south,
Facts and opinion will be welcome at this point.
I personally think this should be extended to link up witht he 8 Ave service using the layup track between 72nd St and *1st St as the access point . Coming from below .
I see a problem with that. The tracks along CPW at that point are on two levels, with the storage tracks between each express and local track. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to tie such a connector into the storage tracks without considerable reengineering. A more feasible solution would be to tie the connecting tracks directly into the express tracks.
That stretch between 72nd and 81st Sts. brings back good memories. The R-10s on the A would be hitting full speed by the time they had passed that storage track heading uptown, and would bear down on 81st St. at about 50 mph.
Is that faster than some of the Queens-bound N/R trains running through the 60th St tunnel these days? Boy can those motormen really fly! I was literally bouncing up & down from the seat and at times felt like standing so I can grab onto a handlebar. Though I enjoy the speed, I always think of the possibility that a switch might be accidently triggered and cause a "great big mess".
I've heard that trains hit speeds greater than 50 mph in the 60th St. tunnel, although I haven't witnessed it myself. I have seen 4 trains of R-62s get up to 50 in the Joralemon St. tunnel. River tunnels are in a class by themselves, IMHO, since the downgrade provides an assist for trains to gather speed. The real test is on the uphill side. In the olden days, trains of BMT standards would be howling away at about Ab above middle C at the lowest point of the 14th St. tunnel, which by my calculations works out to be around 50 mph, but by the time they got to First Ave. or Bedford Ave., their gear pitch would drop all the way down to as low as B below middle C, or 15-20 mph. They would coast part of the way downhill, then the motorman would apply power before they reached the lowest point so they could build up a head of steam. On the prewar cars, you could always tell if they were coasting or under power, because you wouldn't hear the bull and pinion gears when they were coasting. Then they would sing out when power was applied.
Since the R-10s didn't have speedometers or spur-cut bull and pinion gears (they were helical-cut), one can only speculate as to how fast they were actually going. The fact that they were somewhat noisier than their counterparts gave the impression of higher speed. There used to be 45 mph signs along the express tracks on that stretch, which is what their balancing speed was. All I can say is, those A trains were going pretty damn fast at that point. 81st St. was a blur.
Ah, but the ultimate R-10 rocket ride for me was in July of 1969 (OK, Apollo 11 had just taken off for the moon) from Howard Beach to Broad Channel. When the motorman wrapped his controller on that particular train, all bets were off. I'd swear we were doing 60.
those were he good old days ......... too bad the sony 8mm camcorders werent around then !!
Oh, man, how I wish they were around then! I'd give ANYTHING to have a video of an express run up CPW on an A train of R-10s, thunder and blazes and everything. Luckily, I rode on them enough times along that stretch so I can mentally replay that express run.
Thank goodness for heypaul's R-1/9 audio tape recordings...
[I see a problem with that. The tracks along CPW at that point are on two levels, with the storage tracks between each express and local track. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, to tie such a connector into the storage tracks without considerable reengineering. A more feasible solution would be to tie the connecting tracks directly into the express tracks.]
Makes sense. You could offer a handy crosstown service for a relatively small expenditure--it seems to me that ideally there would be crosstown service at the top and bottom (34th St.) of the Midtown business district.
And a single seat when ever the Manny B is shut down . wouldn,t need a relay race at 34th St.
Long time lurker, first time poster.
I'll be in NYC the weekend of May 20. Is there any chance someone
wants to do some subway touring?
Ken Jones
Since the TA started linking subway cars all around our system, How much weight is reduced in the end result?
Not enough to justify the parctice alone. It's the costs involved with maintaining the same equipment on cars which don't need it. Ie: windshield wipers on the third car of the set. Reliability is the goal here as well. Electric contact carriers called electric portions fail often, so linked cars have cables instead. Not uncoupling cars negates the need for an electric portion.
I felt they should have gone further and removed the cabs of middle cars. It would increase passenger space. too much cash involved in that to justify it though.
perhaps they left the cabs to allow for separation should they deem it necessary ( ie loss of a member of a linked set)
If we keep getting 400 Lb train operators, it'll be a wash.
04/16/2000
When riding on the HBLR line on opening day, 4/15/2000 I noticed an old CNJ tower by the wall by a cemetary (Chapel Road). Does anybody know what was the CNJ name and telegraph letters for this tower?
Also on the West Side Ave. branch, what was the name of the station by Martin Luther King Dr? When did passenger and freight quit on this CNJ Newark branch?
Bill Newkirk
See this mint condition beauty on eBay, Item #310808298.
I posted some pics I seem to have never bothered to upload at http://www.quuxuum.org/~nixon/new/. This includes some pics from the HBLR opening. You'll have to poke into the subdirectories, as well. A little warning, I did not resize many of the pics, which are 200-300k each.
-Hank
`how did you take that railfan window picture of the # 1 irt ?? it is served by and with a transverse cab equipped
r 62 right ?? no railfan window !! so hoe did you take that picture ??
SalaamAllah: How could you ask him a serious question about his site when he flames you and calls you an idiot every day???
actually its alan glick who goes
ballistic when he loses a census arguement with me !!
mr hank and his type are being tested for killfile !! soon
i will be able to flush them out like a hunter does with decoys
and like flushing out quail !!
Not every day; and certainly not much since I added him to the kilfile. I did look back at the message, and I don't know why. But since he screamed so much about the conversion and the loss of the windows, if he had a logic circuit he'd realize that the pic was taken before the entire line was converted. Or perhaps it was on a Redbird. Only I know the answer. I assume he's talking about my picture of 116th st. You should see the rest of that roll. That's the only one I got right.
-Hank
still cant get an an answer on that irt #1 photo how did you take a railfan window picture with a r 62?...transverse cab !??
Some years ago they didn't have transverse cabs, You could look out the front window. I do remember reading a post about how they transformed them into a transverse cab, it might have been deleated by now.
The cabs on the R-62s and R-62As were designed to be converted to transverse cabs when needed. An extra bulkhead panel is added to the left of the storm door, and the cab door is simply swung over and latched to the new panel. The cab door has a small square window, and as long as it's not covered by a newspaper or T/O's jacket, you can still look through it.
how was that # 1 irt picture shot on his page ?
Thanks for the photos Hank, made me feel like I was almost there.
Mr t__:^)
Just wish it wasn't raining. I intend to go back one day when I don't have to worry about damaging my equipment.
-Hank
While this is some what off topic, it is still transportation and I have a question that some of you may be able to enlighten me on.
This guy who has appointed himself spokesman for the gypsy cab drivers, Fernando Mateo, who is he?. Is he a political oppurtunist? I do not know but everytime I see him my crapola alarms go off for some reason. Does anyone know his history. Is he just trying to make a name for himself? Thanks.
Peace,
Andee
[This guy who has appointed himself spokesman for the gypsy cab drivers, Fernando Mateo, who is he?. Is he a political
oppurtunist? I do not know but everytime I see him my crapola alarms go off for some reason. Does anyone know his history. Is he just trying to make a name for himself? Thanks.]
As far as I know, he doesn't have any official status, and as you guessed is basically self-appointed. Not that it really matters. If there's any group in need of advocacy, it's the livery cab drivers.
(Just think what would have happened if seven transit workers had been murdered so far this year. I suspect there would have been a mass stike shutting down the entire subway system).
I do not doubt the need for livery drivers to have an advocate, but this guy I just do not know.
Peace,
Andee
This morning I saw 5922 leading an R into Queens Plaza its route sign was a Brown R not a yellow
I think at one point there was R service from Brooklyn onto the Nassau street line, which would explain the brown sign. Why it was in use, is anyones guess...
There used to be an additional R which ran to Chambers St. during rush hours. It carried a brown route sign to associate it with Nassau St. as opposed to the yellow Broadway marking. It was discontinued either due to low ridership or budget cuts.
It was discontinued when the M was moved from the Brighton to the West End line. No need for the redundant service.
-Hank
Were they abe to use 75-foot cars on that line?
subfan
It could, but it never did. It shared the same cars
as the M line used (R16/27-30/40/42).
Very few R trains ever terminated at Chambers. Most went
either to Eastern Pkwy or Metropolitian Ave.
So in effect what you had was something like the RJ service. Interesting.
Wayne
Kinda. They only ran 6 or 7 of them each rush hour anyway. 90% of the ones I rode went to Metro.
Did they continue carrying passengers beyond Chambers St., or did they deadhead? And if they did terminate at Chambers, did they use the severed bridge connection to turn back?
Many did continue to carry passanegers. In fact, I never got kicked off one at Chambers St, coming in from Bay Ridge. These trains needed a yard to be stored in during the day, and either ENY or Fresh Pond served that purpose.
IIRC, TT trains used to be laid up at ENY yard back in the 60s. I caught a glimpse of one such train of R-32s from the Broadway Junction platform of the Canarsie line back in 1967. Then a train of BMT standards pulled in. Oi-oi-oi.
Not true. It was ended in 11/87 to ease congestion on the 4th Ave. line. With the M running via the B line, the R route to Bay Ridge became unnecessary.
The brown R line was only "brown" from 3/87 to 11/87 (when it was eliminated). Until then, it was shown as a yellow line, branching off the R (RR pre 1985) at Broad St. Before 1978, this line was green as well as the regular Broadway RR route.
Yesterday (sunday) I was passing through Queens Plaza, there were Transit Workers on the platform with clipboard looking in to each car on each train as they stopped I belive they were counting passengers...
More likely, they were doing a PES survey where the passenger Environment on various lines is evaluated.
Each subway line is counted periodically. the best way to see how many people are actually riding the trains is to physically count them.
Each "traffic checker" (NYCT has about 400 of them) notes the arrival time of the train, the number of the lead car, and the (approximate) load of each car that he/she is assigned to cover. They're told in advance (as part of their training) the seating and standing capacity of each car class. If an 8-car F is at Queens Plaza, they'll note 75 (rounded to 80) for the seats, visualize the standees in clusters of 10, and write down the total number of 10's - e.g. a notation of "18" represents 180 people, or a moderate-to-high standing load and all seats filled.
To judge by the relative crowding on lines that might be able to add trains (ie. not the Lex and the QB express), my guess is the ususally do those counts on Kwanza and Martin Luther King Day. Then again, those neighborhoods didn't fill out their census forms either, so I guess they can't complain about services.
neighdorhoods who dont fill out census forms cant complain ?? services ?? what services??
what do you mean by kwanza & MLK day ?......which is not for blacks only ..........MLK day is for everyone !....
and can you blame anyone who is sick and tired of lies of services & money and government programs that have
been cut off during the reagan-bush years ??.........and if you are a fool enough to fill out the census form..........
.........nothing happens....another 10 years of lies !!........THEN WHAT.??............... same old b.s.!!.....
[...my guess is that they usually do those counts on Kwanzaa or Martin Luther King Day.]
Not quite. In general, counts tend to be conducted on "typical" work/school days (preferably not on a Monday or a Friday, to avoid a built-in weekend bias). If there's a gross error, such as counting the B11 through Borough Park during the High Holy Days, those numbers will be thrown out. If a route or station serves lots of schools, it may be counted with classes in AND out of session, in order to capture the contrast between "school-open" and "school-closed" usage.
As an aside, I once attended a public hearing at which one speaker suggested basing service decisions NOT on ridership but on "the total number of people who DEPEND on the service." For example, the guy with the newsstand next to the station entrance should count as a train user, since (some of) his business is generated by the presence of the station.
By that logic, every (limo-riding) politician would be counted as a passenger on every bus and train in his/her district, since they need the buses and trains as campaign material.
but larry littlefields post on the senseless census made no sense !
I saw them too, and for some reason also at 23rd Ely. Why consecutive stations?
Lost my information. When is the next metrocard meet in NYC?
Heard a metrocard was to be issued in sync with Earth Day. Transit museum officials were positive they would be out by now. Anyone know for sure or anything different? Thanx,
Joe C
Show is this Saturday. I'll post info as soon as I get it.
-Mark
Was a bit of a disapointing day Saturday at the trolley museum. We had just loaded the air compressor & started the BobCat down the line when the rains came :-( So we move a few RxR ties then put the Crane car away & returned the rented air compressor.
While talking inside one of the barns MOW Bill noticed that the track appeared to be out of guage, he checked it & sure enough it was. Doug, the BMT Man, & I were immediately pressed into service to swing the Maul. We also learned why the Gandy's have to be able to DANCE. While setting the spikes a couple of them flew right past us ... no injuries though.
For the rest of the day we made ourselves busy working on the R-17, R-9 & PCC. A few new members were signed up, one ended up in my car for a ride back to Brooklyn (Welcome Phil). I also got the practice time I needed on the TARS, 3rd Ave trolley, and am now qualified on all the cars trolleys in regular service. Lastly, Stef tore himself away from the R-17 long enough to do his re-qualification.
So the day wasn't a total loss by no means.
Mr t__:^)
How much do the advertisers pay to place their ads on the subway cars? Is there a fee for one ad and a fee for doing the whole car? Is there a fee for having it up for different lengths of time? What's the shortest length of time? What's the longest length of time? Is there a price difference between the ads near the ceiling and the adds on the wall?
Here is a list that should answer your questions,
http://www.outdoorsystems.com/psub_price.html
Peace,
Andee
#4 train today had an Ad for touting the new MVM's and somebody but a sticker next to it saying "WILL COST TOKEN BOOTH CLERKS THEIR JOBS"
It will.
[#4 train today had an Ad for touting the new MVM's and somebody but a sticker next to it saying "WILL COST TOKEN BOOTH CLERKS THEIR JOBS"]
Current plans do not call for that. Once the roll-out of MVM's is complete, token clerks (already renamed "station agents") are to be reassigned to customer-service duties in each station. No job losses are contemplated even though duties will change.
Now, this isn't to say that things might be different at some point. It might well be that the station agents will prove redundant in their new roles at some stations at some times - as I've noted here before, PATH works just fine with unstaffed stations. I really don't know how the Transit Authority would handle that situation. Hopefully, many of the station agents can be retrained for new jobs, and the necessary reductions can be accomplished through attrition.
My crystal ball says the long view from the 13th floor of Jay Street sees NYPD in the stations and on the trains (no one else). May be this is years & years away until the last of the Station Agents & T/O retire, but I'll bet the fly on the wall of that conference room, if he could talk, would tell you this.
Will TA staff go down because of this, no because you'll see castle builders in the back rooms adding staff for one reason or another. What you'll be left with is supervisors in the towers running the RxR by remote control. Will this be more efficient or provide better/safer service to the public .... NOPE. Sorry if I feel that there should be some staff that folks can see providing public service. Hey they still don't want to talk to you on the phone or answer e-mail.
P.S. Well I must admit that someone actually called me on a expired test card that I wanted money put in our account (They said they couldn't do it). The previous request they just ignored.
Just in case I have gotten you curious, I buy test cards with value on them so my guys can verify that the farebox works when they fix it. They don't use them a lot, because we have other ways to do this, but now and then it's just what you need. So, when I don't use one of these cards over a year, I want a refund because I would get arrested if I tryed to use it to board a bus or subway ... at least that's what I tell my guys.
Mr t__:^)
In the Sunday NY times City section there is a story of a prof. from Columbia who has invented a process to erase Scratchetti for the windows. it involves a flames and it melts the window smooth again.
hope it is used before this fall then all of the railfan windows could be cleaned up !!
Believe it or not, a mild abrasive (like automobile rubbing compound) works on lexan, but it won't remove deep scratches. It will make cloudy lexan easier to see through, but of course it won't make it perfect again. It removes the uppermost layer of the plastic, exposing clear plastic beneath. Its labor-intensive, though.
This heat process sounds neat but I think disposable liners will prove cheaper in the long run.
I've tried the abrasive on my fish tank it is a lot of work on if not done right you end up with cloudy spots...
HI
I just got hiried by the TTC in Toronto and wont the real truth
about jumpers on the subway lines.Does it really happen alot.
victor
im lookin for a little insight as how it is dealt with and how often does it happen
new guy
victor
Well it's a tough thing to happen to you. In Boston on the MBTA they place the operator out of service and perform the post accident drug test which is policy in the MBTA after any accident. Psych help is offered and sometimes job reassingment for the tough cases for operators who cannot operate because of the incident.
do you driver for the MBTA?
NO
I actually have been just starting my training with the T.T.C.
driving subway in Toronto.
victor
No I don't work for the MBTA but I have many family and close friends. This is a hobby and it would ruin it for me if I worked for the T . I drive a School Bus for Atlantic Express.
My condolences
I remember Atlantic Express. When they took over from Robinson bus company back in 3rd grade, they instituted these rules about buses stopping only at corners, and everyone hated them. When someone finally broke those rules, we were happy.
I`m a nycta train operator and I had my first jumper about 10 months ago. To help you with your question I will first tell that each person responds to it differently. Some operators are up and ready to work the very next day, while others may be mentally unable to work or even be near trains for quite some time. My experience is of the latter. I have been back at work for for about four months and I still on occassion feel the lingering effects.( persons standing too close to the edge of the plat or folks making sudden movements towards the train)
The main thing to remember is that you dont turn the train on to the platform to hit someone. They jump in front of you. You are on your train doing your job and they by choice put their body in a place where it shouldnt be...between the rails. I hope this doesnt sound too cruel or scare anyone, but it is the only thing that is getting me through each day.
You can never predict if it will or will not happen to you. I know of operators who have gone more than 20 years with out it happening. While some have had multiple jumpers in less than one year. Over all it is not an everday event and I sometimes go months before even hearing of one.
I would not worry too much about it, just take your time to fully come to terms with what has happened and remember you still have a life to live and a career to enjoy.
I hope I have been of some help. GOOD LUCK!
I Operate a train on The Market-Frankford El in Philadelphia. That line has been prone to jumpers. One of the new trains got "christened" a week after it got into service. Fortunately, I've never had a jumper (and hope it will never happen). As what Eastsideto said, "They jump in front of you, you can't (even if you want to) swerve into them.
When I was in Toronto last May, I was told by one of the TTC instructors that the TTC AVERAGES 35 hits per month. Of course, this was the same person who had heard we here in NYC hit so many people that we roll them under the platform edge and then come and pick them up at night, so take that average with a grain of salt. It is one of those things that happen and there is nothing YOU can do about it. I know one guy here in NYC who has had 12 hits in 14 years, but plenty of others with even longer up front who have never had an incident.
I was always wondering what is the reason that the B does not stop at Dekalb when the Q train is not running. is it a bottleneck issue that causes this to occur?
The B runs express in Brooklyn to 36th street, and DeKalb is kinda like a local stop with four local tracks. It might create a bottle neck becuase after stopping at the A1 platform, the B would have to cross F1 to reach F3 and run express. R's would get held up that normally wouldn't. Of course the Wheel Detector governing the N crossing over seems to screw up the entire fourth ave line, so I guess the question is moot.
OY! So THAT'S what that was! ("N" = Creeping Death leaving Pacific)... Jeez, the line's been there since 1915 with very few incidents if any and what do they do? No, a GT's not good enough; we need to make them CRAWL, so they put in a WD!
PFFPHTHPOOOOOEY!
Just another example of how the word "rapid" is being taken out of rapid transit. Maybe leisurely transit is a better term.
You are all forgeting the D derail leaving southbound DeKalb a few years back. Geez there are GT's half way into the platform on the D.
You know TA thinking, Derail = Speed Restriction Needed.
I can't wait to see what happens on the Lex with that Derail.
IMHO, it's more like, "Derailment - OH GOD!!! Time to overreact again!!" A GT or WD on a curve is understandable, more so on a sharp curve. On a straight stretch, I don't think so. Let's hope they don't go that far. On second thought, they've gone far enough already.
The WD only governs movements from F1 to F3, a fairly sharp crossover.
That crossover is fairly sharp. Has there ever been consideration of rebuilding it to a broader curve?
There is no A-1 Track at Dekalb Avenue . The Southbound tracks coming off the bridge is A-3 and the tunnel is B-1. The Bypass track is F-3.
B service skips Dekalb because D and Q trains provide adequate service. B trains would have to share the same track as the M, N and R trains from Pacific to Dekalb to stop at Dekalb. That's a serious bottleneck.
Actually a select handful of "B"s do manage to stop at DeKalb, late in the evening (after the "Q" goes home and before it's reduced to a Shuttle), but normally the "B" train skips De Kalb Avenue station.
Wayne
I was at the 63rd Dtive station yesterday. I noticed as I was waiting for the train that 3 holes were drilled through the "Off Hours Waiting Area" sign. There were pipes going through each of the holes. Why couldn't they have replaced the sign before putting those pipes there?
thats a different group of guys in the union for that job.
HELL no . . .
TA logic prevails in these cases
Must be the same bunch of guys who drilled a hole through a tablet at BMT Lorimer Street station a few years back. Someone made them do penance, though; a brand new tablet's been installed there, which exactly duplicates the original, right down to the tiniest hand-nipped bits. I love that kind of stuff!
Wayne
Happy Patriot's Day, everyone, a state holiday here is Massachusetts.
I did the patriotic thing, and ventured into Boston to do my photo essay of North Station (including the Commuter Rail terminal, Orange Line, and Green Line stations).
I took nearly 100 digital images, all on one "roll of film" (a.k.a. a 32mb memory card), and one battery charge. I set the camera to ISO 400-equivalent, and turned off the auto-flash, so that I would not be bothered by T personnel. Only one official said something, to which I responded, "I'm a reporter for CBS news" (I was wearing my CBS jacket). He gave up, never asking why a radio reporter would be taking photos :-)
I'm sending the images to Dave as I write this... I'm sure he'll post them after he returns home from his trip (and has time to post his OWN pictures!).
The Commuter Rail system is on a weekday schedule today, but since nearly 50% of businesses are closed (and schools are on vacation), the riders during "rush hour" this morning were families and tourists rather than normal commuters. The conductors did a whole lot of ticket selling on-board, vs. pass checking.
[Happy Patriot's Day, everyone, a state holiday here is Massachusetts.]
Which means that people in Upstate New York and in New England have an extra day to file their federal income tax returns :-)
Uh, I'm not sure about that Peter! It's NOT a Federal holiday, so the Andover office is open today. The MA state deadline is tomorrow, however.
Yea, but it got you an extra day o your TAX return
Nope. I completed my taxes a few weeks ago (they owed me!). So I spent the day railfanning instead. A much better alternative.
Since people living in upstate New York (above Westchester) send their taxes to the Andover processing center, they have until modnight tomorrow (Tuesday 4/18) to file their taxes!
--Mark
...not what I expected.
You should warn people about a picture D/L
No, you can always click stop.
I believe according to the Audibon Society, that's an R-26/28 on the left and an R-33 mainline on the right.
No, the one on the left is an R29, 8500-series. Can't you see the rust?
Wayne :o>
It brings a whole new meaning to my "Hello, Redbirds" greeting.
nice looking redbirds !! both of them !! and the ultamate RAIL-FAN-WINDOW-VIEW !!
Now THOSE are nice Redbirds!
Did the Bondo squad do a great job on them or WHAT?
--Mark
they dont look like they are being scrapped .!!
With all of you gentlemen out there hitting the lines with the work, or lack of same on the Manny B, I'm reminded that I haven't heard a blip on the work being done on the Williamsburg Bridge. Is that now completed or are the trains still being divereted over an alternate route? BTW, it looks like the Stillwell Tour has gone up in smoke, so unless I have a good reason, will not be in New York this summer. Of course, if Hillary gets in I might have ridden my last subway in the city.
Oh, come on with the Hillary business! Whoever wins that election will be a junior senator with limited power to do much of anything. Oh, if Giuliani wins and the GOP retains control of the Senate, the party might throw him a nice committee seat. Same if Clinton/Democrats win. But she or he would be only one of 100 members. Personally, I think she'd be the better legislator...Giuliani's ego and unwillingness to compromise would kill him in Washington.
(Giuliani's ego and unwillingness to compromise would kill him in Washington).
New York's congressional representatives have compromised too often. The usual compromise is New Yorkers do a little better that average in national, international, and social policy, and agree to have us get raped on funding formulas in exchange.
I did an interesting little chart the other day. The Medicaid and social services formulas are based on per capita income and not poverty, and this screw states that have a lot of affluent people but are burdened by a lot of poor people also. Guess which states are really screwed by the fact that poverty isn't taken into account (ie. lots of poor people, but modestly high average incomes)? New York, California, and Texas! Well, I suppose exploiting a little state like Rhode Island doesn't give you much money to redistribute.
The Willy B diversions ended on 9/1/99. Normal service has run ever since.
04/17/2000
The only work being done on the Willy B right now is the vehicular roadway, inside Manhattan Bound. As Chris R16 stated, trains are back to normal and await your approval.
Bill Newkirk
...And too bad they did that work on the vehicular roadway. It used to be really fun to ride a motorcycle on the outer roadway of the Williamsburg and see the East River directly under you when looking down at your feet.
I got scared going over it on the B39 and noticeing the gaurdrail seems to come only halfway up the wheel. Never again. I hate outside lanes on bridges. Yes, I'm scared of heights.
-Hank
Hey gang!
Just finished watching the movie "STIGMATA" do any of y'all have any info on the subway scene? THANKS
Peace,
Andee
Hey, Andee...wasn't there footage from 'Money Train' in there some where? If they didn't use car #51050 then some of the LA-based R-27/30 cars were used for the interior scenes(?)
Doug aka BMTman
There were scenes depicting some Redbirds travelling through a tunnel. There was also a scene or two of the Money Train #51050.
Funny thin is, the movie was supposed to take place in Pittsburgh!
The subway car interior shots weren't done in anything that even resembles NYCTA equipment. It looked more like phony Toronto stuff.
BTW, the R-27/30's in LA are down to three now. The one that was cut in two (8275) has disappeared. Car 8401 an the two grafittied units are still on that back lot in Glendale.
8401 is in Coney Island Yard at the fire training school. The one you see must be a phony #.
-Mark
I've thought that it did have a phony number when I photographed it in Glendale, CA about six months ago; the number plates had a funny "bulge" to them when they were attached. Also, on the insde of the motorman's cab door at the end that is visible from my vantage point, the decals were "8 97" (second digit obliterated). So, from the time I photo-ed the cars in Glendale, CA, I've thought there was some "renumbering" of the cars on that studio backlot.
I did send photos to Dave Pirman for the site, but haven't been able to find where he said he posted them.
I've thought that it did have a phony number when I photographed it in Glendale, CA about six months ago; the number plates had a funny "bulge" to them when they were attached. Also, on the insde of the motorman's cab door at the end that is visible from my vantage point, the decals were "8 97" (second digit obliterated). So, from the time I photo-ed the cars in Glendale, CA, I've thought there was some "renumbering" of the cars on that studio backlot.
I did send photos to Dave Pirman for the site, but haven't been able to find where he said he posted them.
I think you mean #8408. Isn't that the one with the mashed end?
Wayne
8408 was the one with the mashed end in Money Train.
The "8401" I was mentioning, is on a studio backlot in Glendale, California (just north of downtown Los Angeles). As I mentioned back in November when I went up there and photographed them, the "8401" is suspected to be something else, as the number plates had an unusual bulge where they were riveted/screwed on to the carbody -- and the interior of the motorman's cab door had decals "8 97" (second digit was obliterated).
I did send Dave Pirmann the photos I took -- might wanna ask him where they are on the site. If they're not up, I can always send them to you direct.
Doug,
I think you are mixing up End of Days in there somewhere. End of days uses the LA R-27/30 interiors. Not Stigmata.
Peace,
Andee
Thank you to the webmaster for removing the ugly postings
directed at me by a certian person.
This hobby needs more inteligent people rather than those
that attack others on these message boards for no good
reason.
KEEP ON TAWLKIN!
M1 (The M1 and only)
I've been looking at the photos of the R-142 and R-142a subway cars and they do look quite attractive. I wonder if they're going to be reasonably trouble free when they enter service. I also wish to know when they're expected to enter regular service. By the way there's a website that one can contact if you wish to have your voice heard if you want better transit in the future.
Somewhere on this site it says the two 10 car sets will be tested in regular service later this month, a Daily News article says May or June, and someone in the testing crew said July or August. Maybe someone else has a more definitive answer.
I heard that the designers of te new cars tried to re-invent the wheel. This does not bode well.
They say a camel is just a racehorse that was designed by a committee. The R-142 had perhaps one too many cooks around the pot but let's not judge until we see the final product.
Do you know any motormen-opperators-drivers that are on line i can talk to via e-mail or therwise?
new driver,,,,TTC,Toronto
victor
You've asked this question enough. If someone can answer it, then it will or already has. No matter how much you beg.
Don't post personal messages on this board, that means don't address messages to specific people unless you don't know their e-mail and they don't post it. Train Dude does.
Maybe if we're lucky the R-142s won't be the disasters that the R-44s and the R-46s were with all of their problem thanks to bungling by the MTA. Maybe a new type of subway car can go into service without ANY major problems thanks to proper testing BEFORE actual fleets of cars were built.
Maybe if we're lucky the R-142s won't be the disasters that the R-44s and the R-46s were with all of their problems thanks to bungling by the MTA. Maybe a new type of subway car can go into service without ANY major problems thanks to proper testing BEFORE actual fleets of cars were built.
Last month I spoke with Joe Hoffman at the 100th ann. of groundbreaking ceremony. He did not have a date on when the 30 day test would begin, but he said that all testing thus far had been flawless. But then again, in January he told Transit Transit that the R142s could last up to 80 years, which I really doubt. -Nick
How do you make a fantasy map? I want to, but where do you get the software? Can anyone help me?
Thank you
Christopher Rivera
www.adobe.com
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well, you can make a simple one by using Paint which is on Windows.
If you want to see how your fantasy would work, download a simulation program. I recommend BAHN 3.59. The link is on this site on http://www.nycsubway.org/software/bahn
There are also layouts for subway/train systems on that page. You can download the NYC but you'll have to update some of it yourself (C running on Grand Concourse, Franklin St shuttle inactive, B/Q terminal at 57 St.)
BEWARE: If you use this, be prepared to spend some time. This software displays trains on tracks, not lines. You have to decide when to let trains leave terminals.
And also, you have to install some trains (R-68...) yourself. Included in program).
Hi
I have the @home.com base in Canada as a cable modem service.This is the best service provided now over cable.Fear not im not a kid hacker
but A NEW SUBWAY DRIVER IN TRAINING,mind the doors''''
Thanks
VICTOR
Please accept my apologies for questioning your identity. I was relying on obviously outdated information from our ISP. And I have to agree with you - it is a tremendous service here in New Jersey. I also have a Worldnet account which I use when at our North Carolina home (we're so far out in the country down there that cable TV isn't even available) and the performance difference is incredible - not that Worldnet is bad (it's the best regular ISP going), but there's no comparing a 53K connection over POTS to a cable line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
About the Hudson Bergan County light rail, on the NJ site it saids that the Phase 3 and 2 will exted the line to Newport, NJ.
Newport NJ is about 200 miles south of Exchange place. Do they mean Newark or is there a Newport much closer. I didn't see any other town named Newport of the map.
They meant Newport, as in the Mall (Pavonia/Newport on PATH). About 1 mile North.
There will be three stops along the way north from Exchange Place:
Harborside/Financial Center, Harsimus Cove (wonder who Harsimus was) then Pavonia/Newport. Next comes Hoboken, somewhere down the road.
The stretch to Pavonia/Newport will, from the looks of it, be extremely serpentine, with S curves going back and forth. Should be interesting to watch the Kinkisharyos snake their way round these. They're planning to go south in Bayonne to 22nd Street as well. Caterary's up (at least the poles are) but the track isn't in yet.
Wayne
Seen an HBLR map recently and felt dejected at the rather vague reference to "Future Service to Bergen County" reaching out in a dotted line and briefly running west of Hoboken?
Well, feel bad no more!
Super HBLR Map courtesy of the City of Jersey City, NJ.
This thing shows extensions down to the tip of Bayonne, to Route 440 from West Side Avenue and all the stations up to Ridgefield.
I don't get the point behind "Area 5;" What is it for? Is it the Communipaw yard? What does Communipaw mean?
And do those two numbered streets before Vince Lombardi continue the numbering of Hoboken?
All trains from Ridgefield will end at Hoboken? no service to Jersey City? Or will they only be able to go to JC? I heard that it wasn't both.
the towns of northern husdon have numbered cross street. they start about(frist street) the jersey city line.
Including Hoboken of course? Why does JC start it's numbering where it does? I know why Manhattan starts where it does (North Street, extent of developed area in 1811).
Not sure about Communipaw - I was wondering about Harsimus Cove and who Harsimus was. Perhaps Communipaw is an old landowner's name. It sounds rather like a combination name (like HolBan - for Hollis and St. Albans).
Area 5 appears to be the maintenance facility.
They've already changed a couple of station names - Liberty Harbor is now Marin Boulevard; Jersey Medical Center is now Jersey Avenue.
When we were at Westside Avenue, some of the stuff at the west end of the station appears to be sort of temporary - I was told there would be a transition ramp built there someday. The map appears to bear this out.
Wayne
Actually, the extension to Pavonia/Newport (to open later this year) and Hoboken (to open 2001) is part of phase one (initial operating segment). Phase two and three involve extensions from Hoboken north and 34th Street in Bayonne south.
Michael
I am starting to think this bulletin board is full of off track wanna bies.Railfans are nice but im trying to hook up with the real subway
opperators-motormen-drivers,ARE YA OUT THERE?
T.T.C NEW GUY
VICTOR
There are several motormen and conductors who post sporadically on SubTalk, as well as at least one station agent (subway-buff) and the head of one of the maintenance shops (Train Dude). Plus, of course, there are a bunch of us regular railfans, from kids through senior citizens, one resident comedian (heypaul), and a couple of certified nut jobs who appear from time to time. So hang in there, you'll make connection with them sooner or later. Welcome aboard!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[ ... the head of one of the maintenance shops (Train Dude) ...]
I think that's the wrong Steve K. I'm pritty sure the Train Dude was at Branford this past weekend & he doesn't work for the TA.
Mr t__:^)
If the "Train Dude" was at Branford and was reported here by handle, then that's the TA's Steve. I believe Steve K posts under his own name.
Wait. Train Dude is Steve at Concourse Shop, but he's not at Branford. The gentleman at Branford is another Steve K.
-Stef
On these grounds, ¿whatever happened to NYC TRANSIT aka. BMT LINES? He came back for one post about heypaul's article, and has since been gone?
I think he got disgusted with some of the posters that were infesting the board, the prime offender being the gentleman from LA, who is now the subject of many killfiles.
thats a lot of B. S. and you know it ....!!
You know who else we haven't heard from in a while? N Broadway Line/Local/Express. I miss his "Ooohhhhhhhh nooooooooooo" reaction.
what are you talking about i am the big guy.toronto transit rules the world
Isn't that what I said??? BTW the reason that Steve Kreisler changed his handle to Train Dude was to eliminate any confusion between him and Steve K., and it's what his friends in the Harley group gave him.
Wait I'm confused. Am I Steve K. or am I Steve K. ?
When you guys get this sorted out please let me know.
My wife won't let me into bed until I'm sure it's me.
It's all Thurston's fault. He reported Train Dude was at Shore Line last weekend (or at least who he thought was there) and the whole thing disintegrated from there. My effort to untangle the mess seems to have bollixed it up even worse.
Will Thurston please get this mess unscrewed so Train Dude can get a good night's sleep before going back to Concourse Shop.
Pul-eeze.
Yep ... gotta keep those MDBF's at record levels, so make sure he gets his rest!!
--Mark
OK OK ... I've updated my cross reference list, you're the former "Steve" who's last name also begins with "K", not to be confused with another "Steve" who I've met who doesn't post here but frequently has his wife make delicious cup cakes at Shoreline special events.
You're also the man partly responsible for so many customers love afair with the Hippos. You also never were a SubDude from Brooklyn.
Like they say you can't play the game with out a score card ;-)
Mr t
This is too funny. You might as well say, "Will the real Steve K. aka Train Dude please stand up?"
Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion about those Lumbering Lardbuckets. Let's just leave it at that.
No, only bad opinions are allowed about the Lumbering Lardbuckets. If you felt good about them, you wouldn't defame them so callously. Please modify your statement.
WHAT IS THIS ALL ABOUT STEVE OR DRIVERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Will you stop interjecting your drivel into threads which have nothing do with you.
Will you stop interjecting your drivel into threads which have nothing do with you.
T.T.C. was the person who started this entire thread to begin with.
I will resist the temptation to say something that I might regret later.
-Robert King
No, say it.
All right, that's true, but this branch of the thread no longer has anything to do with him, he has to understand thread drift.
Will you stop interjecting your drivel into threads which have nothing do with you.
T.T.C. was the person who started this entire thread to begin with.
I will resist the temptation to say something that I might regret later.
-Robert King
Like you, I'm also a new Train Operator, only here in NYC. As such, I can't get here everyday, although I do try, because of the crazy schedule I keep. I also don't post a lot - mostly when I can correct bad info or answer a question from first hand experience. ( Go back and check your question on jumpers)
This board is for buffs, by buffs. If there are transit employees here, it's because they're buffs, or just like to talk. If no one has responded to your query, it's because there are none of those people here, or none of them care to talk to you.
-Hank
[This board is for buffs, by buffs. If there are transit employees here, it's because they're buffs, or just like to talk. If no one has responded to your query, it's because there are none of those people here, or none of them care to talk to you. -Hank]
Well, as Ronald Regan would say ... there you go again.
Sometimes Hank doesn't count to ten before he answers, so let me take a little edge off his reply ... and know that he's one of the folks here who will share his knowlegde with the rest of us, but re-read his comment because it's not far off the mark.
There are indeed quite a few "employees" of the industry here, this includes volunteers at museums. I happen to be a employee of a NYC bus company & a trolley qualified operator.
I think you need to be patient, i.e. if you don't get an answer initially, wait a few days, ask again in a different way, but don't yell and screem. "we" also need to get to know you a little better, i.e. are you realy an operator at Toronto or just a kid posing. Answer a technical question that shows what you know, at the same time you'll become part of the sharing experience here. Friendships are cultivated here, that takes time. I for one cherish a small group of new friends that I've made here that we call the "3/4 ton crew".
Mr t__:^)
I thought this photo was interesting from the TMNY collection. I'll post what I know of it in a few days, if people don't correctly guess in the mean time....
(Photo credit: TMNY Collection, catalog #4092)
It's the St. George Ferry terminal in SI.
Carl M.
Yup. Somehow I thought there would be more discussion. In a few days I'll post more recent photos involving a Triplex...
04/20/2000
Evan,
Did those Staten Island cars pictured here wind up on TARS?
Bill Newkirk
I sent your question on to another person. Here is his response:
Evan:
The type of Staten Island car in the foreground, the 300 series, was probably scrapped when Richmond Rys was abandoned. The car in front of it, a 400 series car were indeed sold to TARS and were numbered in the 1200 series and ran on (I believe) Webster Ave. in the Bronx. Incidentally, the location in the photo is probably the Ferry Slip building. I wish I could help more, but perhaps a knowledgable New York fan will eventually come up with more information.
Best regards,
Dick Kotulak
Before working for Atlantic Express I worked for the
CITY OF BOSTON EMS. I was there for 5 years before
my back gave out. I have responded to 4 man under's
in my time there picking up the peices and giving
them to the coroner. I saw the after effects to all
involved after the incident. Sorry that Im not an
operator and couldn't help you Victor. Good luck with your training. Stevie
For those of you who like to know these things, the four cars that TO Bravo put off the structure at 239 Yard were moved on Monday from the upper level of the yard down to Track 33 on the lower level - next to the driveway - so they can be scrapped.
Did I miss this? Some unfortunate soul rolled off the top level?
Yikes.
On February 3, 1998, a #2 train of R33s entering the Wakefield Yard lead lost its bearings somehow and bumped into the rear of an R62 #4 train which was queued up waiting to have its bath. The combination of the (minor) impact and the sharp curve caused the R33 to derail from the elevated structure. The first car, #8980, derailed but stayed on the El. It was damaged at both ends. The second car, #8981, derailed from the el and crashed first into #8980, then onto the roof of an adjacent factory building. The third and fourth cars, #9152 and #9153, derailed and crashed into a trailer full of flammables (naphtha, perhaps) which was parked alongside the building. The trailer caught fire and the two cars also caught fire at their blind ends and were severely damaged. The fifth car, #8912, had one truck derail but stayed on the el.
R62 #1400 suffered minor damage to his bonnet, glasses and anticlimber and his rear truck was dislodged.
Wayne
Maybe that 2 train felt it should have been able to take a bath first because of seniority.:-)
I shudder to think what sort of damage a BMT standard would have done to that R-62. Probably would have smashed in the entire end.
OK, picture a BMT Standard vs. an R68 or R68A. An IRT equivalent would have been a Gibbs Hi-V vs. an R62 or R62A. If the collision were on a straightaway, the newer car would have been very badly damaged if not destroyed by the older, heavier car.
Since the car doing the hitting was rounding a curve, its center of gravity was off, so it lost its balance and fell from the El.
A similar accident occurred in Chicago in the late 1970's, at Wabash curve, the north east corner of the Loop. A 1969 2200's series Lake-Dan Ryan (Green Line) train ran into a 1955 6000's Ravenswood (Brown Line) PCC-style train on the curve, and so lost its balance and plunged into the street, killing a dozen or so aboard. The 1955 train was beyond the curve, suffered a nick in the anticlimber and a minor dent, and stayed on the rails. The 1969 train jack-knifed as it fell and one car (#2290) landed atop another (#2289), crushing its end and side.
Wayne
You're right about the curve and center of gravity.
All of those oldtimers had one thing in common: steel, steel, and more steel. I wonder if there were ever any accidents in Chicago involving 4000-series cars and 6000-series or later cars.
I wouldn't know about any 4000-vs-6000 incidents; I do seem to remember a couple of 6000-vs-6000 rear-enders, with plenty of broken glass (they had lots of little PCC windows), bent anticlimbers, mashed doors and cabs, &c. but no body penetration or telescoping. The 6000s looked to be as tough as nails, or at least as tough as an R10.
I've seen the new CTA photo collection featuring the 4000's. MAN ARE THEY UGHLY! They look like they date from, say, the late 1920s. I would assume they are as heavy as they look.
Wayne
04/20/2000
[I've seen the new CTA photo collection featuring the 4000's. MAN ARE THEY UGHLY! They look like they date from, say, the late 1920s. I would assume they are as heavy as they look]
I guess we can call the CTA 4000'S Chicago Low-v's. Not that they look like them, but those were their standard 9ft wide steel subway cars.
Six years ago on a trip to the Illinois Railroad Museum on a "Chicago" weekend, they pulled out just about everything Chicago and ran them all day. Something like out New York days at Branford. Their main track is 5 miles long and I rode a two car set of 4000's on the post! Close your eyes and and they would remind you of low-v's. In other words, they make all the right sounds!
Bill Newkirk
In other words, the 4000s have spur-cut bull and pinion gears. I remember seeing them on the Evanston Express, and could always tell when they went by because they sounded distinctly different from the 6000s. They date from the early 1920s and were heavy by Chicago's standards, tipping the scales at about 38 tons. Their construction? steel, steel, and more steel. Consequently, their top speed was in the 40-45 mph range while the 6000s could run in excess of 50 mph. They weren't ugly to me, anyway; I thought they certainly looked better than the BMT standards.
The 4000s were Chicago's longevity champions. The last ones in service logged 50+ years of service at the time of their retirement.
I am hoping to be at IRM someday when the 4000s are on the mainline and Green Hornet 4391 is making the circuit on the loop track.
I see. It's official that cars 8980,81, 9152, and 9153 are going to be scrapped. They'll be scrapped at 239th St? I thought that maybe they'd be pulled down to 207th St, before any scrapping took place.
Oh well, it looks like it's time to bid some R-33s farewell.
-Stef
For sure, #9152 and #9153 - those were toast.
Wayne
Were any of the four cars in any shape to have been rehabilitated, or did they suffer "irreparable" damage?
Out of the four cars, which one would have likely been the more likely to be fixed and go back into service??? (My guess would have been #8980, which could be linked to #8885)
Nick
8885 will remain as a work horse. There are no plans on returning it to passenger service.
As for the 4 cars that were involved in that derailment, 9152 and 53 were damaged the most suffering fire damage as they landed on a trailer, catching fire. They're history. 8980 and 81? I'm uncertain of the damage to these cars, but it may not be cost effective at this point in time to even consider repairing them since they're at the end of their useful lives. As I recall, 8981 landed on top of a building near the yard approach, cracking the foundation of the building. The building had to be demolished as a result. 8980's carbody was cut into when the FDNY had to extract the T/O from that train. I saw the cars up close once, when passing through the yard on a train of Museum Lo-Vs. The pantographs on the ends of 8980 and 81 were mangled. Who wants to make an investment in fixing up cars that will eventually go to scrap in a few short years? No one!
-Stef
It sounds as though the building fared worse than 8981.
That's a pretty big Bird there - 72,000+ pounds as delivered, probably more with the A/C retrofits, more than capable of doing major-league damage when partially airborne.
Wayne
Not quite as bad as the train coming through the terminal at the end of "Silver Streak" but pretty impressive. I don't think a Standard or a Triplex ever destroyed a building.
Maybe not, but BMT standard 2779 went sideways through Ocean Parkway station and took out just about everything in its path.
Oh, I'm sure the Standards had all the capability in the world of taking out a building if they wanted to, they just never did it. The Redbirds never had as tough a reputation, so having one give as good at it gets was a bit of a surprise.
Oh, the BMT standards were known to take out a row of I-beams here and there, and come away with maybe a broken light bulb or bruises and scrapes. I know they would have put a major hurt on any building they would have crashed into. Well, almost any building...
It may just be after all the derogatory Rusty the Redbird remarks, this particular set of trains wanted to show they still had something left in them and wouldn't disintegrate if you just touched them, as some people have posted. They basically sacrificed their lives for the glory of the other Redbirds on the IRT. Very noble...
Don't get me wrong. I love the Redbirds. The sad fact is that corrosion has taken its toll on many of them. At the same time, I'm not going to take any cheap shots at the R-142s without having ridden on them. Let's just leave it at that.
Speaking of, I believe that the RedBirds are a symbol of Shea Stadium. They appeared on the Flsuhing Line in 1964. The Mets arrived in Shea in 1964. When the RedBirds are finally dead :( then I believe that Shea Stadium will also go down with them. Aren't they going to build a new ball park or was that plan rejected? Was supposed to open in 2002 from what I heard but they haven't even seen a sight that they started on the project as of yet.
R36Gary
Then mark off four Mets for trade. 9500-01 and 9540-41. On with the onslaught!
And what became of 9540 and 41? Explain.
-Stef
What's with #9540-41? Anyway, those are Mainline R36, not Flushing, and they're assigned to Westchester-Yard and run on the #6 Line, not the #7...
wayne
Don't know but they are losing parts fast along with the other two. 9500 had a serious burnup at Spring St last year and is now placed amongst the scrap line at 207.
Shea Stadium's successor is supposed to be built right next to it in the adjacent parking lot.
One instance where I saw a train take out EVERYTHING in its path was a piece in my "Train Wrecks" book shows a Pennsy GG-1 locomotive, which was pulling a long train of New Haven stainless steel Pullman coaches ran amok at Union Station in Washington DC, went through the bumper blocks, into the concourse, and fell KER-PLOP into the baggage room below. WHAT A MESS!
Wayne
[One instance where I saw a train take out EVERYTHING in its path was a piece in my "Train Wrecks" book shows a Pennsy GG-1 locomotive, which was pulling a long train of New Haven stainless steel Pullman coaches ran amok at Union Station in Washington DC, went through the
bumper blocks, into the concourse, and fell KER-PLOP into the baggage room below. WHAT A MESS!]
And yet, the GG-1 was repaired and returned to service. They sure built them to last ...
A more recent train-vs.-building incident occurred in a Minnesota freight yard a couple of years ago. Several cars on a long freight derailed and basically obliterated the fairly sizeable yard administration building. Fortunately, it was after working hours and few if any people were in the building.
I remember that! February 2, 1996, St.Paul, MN. There was a load of hazardous materiel spilled, and two people lost their lives.
February 1996 was a TERRIBLE month for trains of all kinds.
Not only did the above incident occur;
1) NJ Transit Comet III #5145 got smashed by a locomotive in the swamps of Secaucus on February 9, 1996...
2) A TERRIBLE accident occurred in Silver Spring MD on February 16, 1996, where the Amtrak Capital Limited plowed into MARC Sumitomo #7752, which was consumed by fire, killing many...
3) At Leadville CO on February 21, 1996, a serious derailment of a freight train killed three crewmen and spilled tankers and tankers of HCl2, also known as Hydrochloric Acid. OUCH!
wayne
And yet, the GG-1 was repaired and returned to service. They sure built them to last ...
That they did. The motor was cut into three pieces, hoisted out, hauled to Altoona, and put back together again, good as new.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A funny thing I learned while at NJT was that GG-1 had to be cut in half at Union Station so that it could be lifted back to the rails. It had dropped a floor down after it derailed. It was welded back together to make service! I'm not sure there are many cars or engines that were lucky to be returned to service after being torched into pieces.
The GG1 were well insured. The Insurance company paid for the rebuilding after the accident.
Talk about a whoooooops!!!! Did the brakes fail, or what?
The cause was an angle cock on the third coach which got stuck in the closed position. They were having brake trouble as far back as Rhode Island. When the crews changed at New Haven, the new crew was not notified. Funny thing, the brakes worked perfectly all the way from New York to Baltimore, with stops at Phila. and Wilm., DE. Anyway, the GG-1 was travelling at 85+MPH when the engineer made his first brake application, somewhere around the District Line. The train didn't slow. Even the emergency brake didn't work! It crashed into Union Station, mashed the Stationmaster's office, crushed the Newsstand to bits then fell into the baggage office.
source: "Train Wrecks" by Robert C. Reed
(C) 1968 Superior Publishing Company
wayne
I'll bet that poor engineer had nightmares after that. That had to be horrifying. Luckily, it didn't plow into another train a la the IC incident.
A similar thing happened on the South Shore in 1967, right after we left South Bend. A train lost its brakes as it approached the western outskirts of my hometown, and kept right on going for 4 miles through city streets, smashing everything in its path. It wasn't going all that fast, maybe 25 mph, but we're talking about one, possibly two 75-ton cars here. It ended up hitting eight automobiles, IIRC, and went through the bumper posts in the LaSalle Ave. storage yard. The motorman jumped off just before that; can't recall if the conductor stayed on board.
I wonder if they could have dropped the pantographs...
What exactly is a pantograph? I though it was the diamond shaped thing that connected overhead wires to trains. R-33s don't have them, so my definition must be flawed.
A pantograph IS the structure that connects to the overhead wire on trains that take power from overhead caternary. Stef was referring to the pantograph gates at the ends of the cars- the gaes that fold out from the corners of the car and fill the gap between two cars.
From www.m-w.com:
Main Entry: pan·to·graph
Pronunciation: 'pan-t&-"graf
Function: noun
Etymology: French pantographe, from pant- + -graphe -graph
Date: 1723
1 : an instrument for copying (as a map) on a predetermined scale consisting of four light rigid bars jointed in parallelogram form; also : any of various extensible devices of similar construction (as for use as brackets or gates)
2 : an electrical trolley carried by a collapsible and adjustable frame
- pan·to·graph·ic /"pan-t&-'gra-fik/ adjective
-Hank
when did this accident happen with TO Bravo?
I guess you and Dave B. have memory problems. It happened in early Feb. 1998 and made all the papers and TV news. The TO was laying up atrain at 239 Yardand ended up putting two or three cars off the structure of the yard lead. As aresult, service was suspended from White Plains Rd to (Gun Hill Rd or E.180?)for a couple of days.
Who has memory problems? They could be from out of town or could have been out of town at the time.
Or they just didn't stay in touch with the news that week.
As a note of some possible interest, I thought that I'd point out that, last night I caught a glimpse of a transfer going to 207th St Yard for work, cars being dropped and/or added. On the train was R-29s 8696-97, which went off the rails last week north of 59th St. If the damage was at a minimum to these cars, then I'd expect them to return at some point. The only possible component replacement to take place at this point, would be for the car trucks to be replaced (as Train Dude pointed out). Let's wait and see how this plays out.
-Stef
If the TA was smart, they'd hire you, and set up your apartment as a Tower!
;-)
Well my eyes are open to the sights and sounds of NYCT 24-7. Perhaps a Tower Should be set up from my house? I'll need a gigantic model board of the West Farms El:)
-Stef
Staying up 24/7 might be a little tough on you, but how about SubCam? A 24/7 internet web cam of the West Farms el? They already have a couple of rail cams going on Broadcast.com, so a camera up there (or, say, at Coney Island or Broadway Junction) would be following in their path.
Don't forget www.sfmunicentral.com. It's kind like a SubCam!
Good idea....
-Stef
You've got a birds-eye view from your apartment, all right; but the apartment I'D LOVE to have is that one that's now a karate parlor at the north end of the S/B platform at Simpson Street. Redbirds (and R142's soon) singing in Living Stereo! OUCH!!!! It's commercial space now, but no doubt was somebody's apartment once. A place only a train buff could love.
They'd better never grease that stretch or put in a track sprayer.
Wayne
Yeah, you gotta love the squeal of train wheels rounding the curve at Simpson St. Let's install a SubCam in there!
-Stef
Don't you hate the sprayer at S. Ferry? At least the inner loop is still dry. A sprayer at Simpson street wouldn't go over too well on (I mean for) the people below, unless the TA starts an umbrella selling business.
It's wonderful. The train makes a soft grinding sound instead of that horrible squeal.
TRACK SPRAYERS FOREVER!!!
#5 trains terminate northbound at 149th/3rd Ave. during track construction on the White plains line. Passengers are forced to wait for a #2. Can someone explain how the #2 can continue its route up the local track if the #5 has to stop service?
It's probably like the 4 terminating at Atlantic when there's a GO on the 3/New Lots line: The GO area probably can't handle the train frequency of both the 2 and the 5, so they cut back the 5. It's also possible that the work only affects the route/switches that the 5 uses.
The 2 is more frequently used than the 5. To stop 2 service may cause more problems that warranted. It's easy to cut up 5 service with a shuttle at East 180th St, and having trains turn back at either 3rd Av or in most cases, the upper level of 149th Grand Concourse. From an operational standpoint, the 5 is the route to get sacrificed, with very few exceptions.
-Stef
On the subject of construction on the White Plains Line, the newly installed signals from north of Bronx Park East up towards Gun Hill Rd and beyond are being placed into service as we speak. So far, the northbound local and middle tracks had their signals put into service, while the southbound tracks new signals should go into service this week.
-Stef
Thank you for your responses, Stef, I'm glad to know signal work is being completed north of Bronx Park East. However, as far as the 149th St. terminus, I don't see why either the 2 or the 5 have to be sacrificed though J Hart has a good idea.
Isn't it funny how the 5 is so unused during the day, but is given the express run during rush hours at the loss of the 2? Go figure.
Well, some sacrifices have to be made or we'd wind up with a bottleneck during construction, especially when trains have to run on one track! Keep in mind that the 5 runs only part time, while the 2 only runs 24-7.
Speaking of express service in the rush hour, starting in June, the White Plains Service will become Thru Exp, while service to Dyre Av becomes local. How about that for a flip?
In terms of exceptions to the rule, on a few occasions in late 1997, and much of 1998, the 5 was required to run all weekend because there was no 2 service in the Bronx. All 2 service terminated at 96th St during the time the tunnel on Lenox Av was undergoing rehab, with the 5 operating between Bowling Green and E241 Street. Strange huh?
Regards,
Stef
Thanks for your response. I just read the news in a copy of Bus Talk
found on a Bronx bus about the #2 and #5 lines sharing express rush hour service, and I was thrilled, thanks for letting me know.
I'm learning to appreciate sacrifices in service, but I still have a beef with Bronx- bound service. I've more than once gotten stuck having shuttled across 42nd St. purposefully to get the #5 on Saturday or Sunday, only to find out I it's not running. Wish I had known that at Times Square where I could have taken the #2! Or, worse, told at 96st St that the #2 is not running to the Bronx, when that information would have been handier further downtown.
On the other hand, at one point, I think several years ago,the #2 and #3 were running local all the way up the West side, and took me straight to the Bronx with little waiting time since it was replacing the #1/9.
I thought I was in Nirvana.
Happy suway riding,
Rob
I would like to know what people think about the ADA and what they have done to the R142 subway car to make it more "accessable"
I don't know about you but i have NEVER seen a wheel chair person on a train. And the cost of elevaters for every station would be in the billions, they could use that money for the 2nd Av.
The storm (end) doors are now wider and split in half to enable wheelchairs to move from car to car. The side doors are also wider, permitting easier access to the car from the platform. There are no poles in the center of the car floors, enabling chairs to move around the interiors. I believe there are also seats that can be folded up to enable wheelchairs to be locked in place by the people in them: I know this is a feature on the T1 cars used in Toronto.
If you've NEVER seen a person in a wheelchair riding the subway, then all I can say is - you don't ride them enough. I will admit there are not a lot of them, but that is probably due to the limited access they have into and out of the system. While more stations will get elevators in the future, I believe NYCT won a dispensation from having to install them in all stations.
The LIRR has many accessible stations and I've never seen a weelchair customer. The real reason for the fold up seats on the R-142 is that they probably default to folded-up position, so people may not realize there's a seat and stand. More standing capacity with the same number of seats. As for the lack of center poles, PATH removed them from the PA-4s for the same reason.
As for wheelchair passengers, have you seen the beggar with the Puerto Rican flag on his chair? That is about the only one I have seen (that I can remember), and I ride the subways a lot, not just on the same route over and over. The extra space may also be utilized by baby carriages and shopping carts.
As for the elevators, If 400 stations had to have elevators installed, the TA would bankrupt, and not too many people would benefit (I see many wheelchair passengers on the Queens express routes. They tell me they wouldn't use the subway even if they had easy access.)
04/19/2000
[As for the elevators, If 400 stations had to have elevators installed, the TA would bankrupt, and not too many people would benefit (I see many wheelchair passengers on the Queens express routes. They tell me they wouldn't use the subway even if they had easy access.)
Unfortunatly, while these handicapped elevators which are boon to the elderly and women with baby strollers, they have also become moving urinals. Check out the one at Jamaica Center (E)(J)(Z).
Bill Newkirk
You think those are bad, try 125th/Lex...Those are literally rest rooms.
they [ADA elavators]have also become moving urinals.
Perhaps if NYCT maintained the public conveniences that were built into all their stations the situation might be different.
We try to maintain the facillities but the public needs to be more mannered. I have asked several (in jest) if I could draw on their walls and got an of course not yet they feel the system is somehow exempt from decency and courtesy.
They wait in line at the bank, the grocery store, sporting events, concerts, barber/beauty shop, doctor, dentist, post office, etc. but they cant wait 30 seconds at the booth!
ADA does not call for 100% access but "Key stations" or if renovations exceed a certain dollar amount (Which I do not know), then access must be provided.
Elevators are under construction at:
34/7th express, 34/7th local planned, Union Square (N,R,L)34/8th (will be constructed), Yankee Stadium(D/4), Times Square Complex, Grand Central (7),72/B'way,Atlantic/Pacific Complex, among others.
Elevators present a unique challenge due to multiple levels at many stations. Take Broadway/Nassau Fulton Street- we'd need 1 for the J line, two for the Lex,two for the A and 1 for the 2/3 plus elevators to the connecting passages- 2/3 to mezz, mezz to A, mezz to J, Mezz to 4 underpass.
NYCT is planning on adding elevators to more stations but it takes time and money and in some cases purchases of land (such as 34/7th local uptown where the restaurant will be reduced in size for elevators).
(such as 34/7th local uptown where the restaurant will be reduced in size for elevators).
I hope you don't mean Sbarros!
Unless they moved the planned location, It is what you fear!
I've never seen one in New York, but during my "ride-the-whole-system" day in Washington this past winter I saw TWO.
As to ADA, it certainly enables people who are less mobile to get more places. Given my problems with arthritis and other health issues I may well be one of those people in a wheelchair someday; I already need the assistance of crutches from time to time. I question the wisdom of spending huge sums of money, though, to provide the physically handicapped with absolute access to absolutely everything. Each of us has our challenges in life; each of us has something that we cannot do. We simply must learn to play the cards that life has dealt us and emphasize what we can do best while coping with the rest. Yes, provide curb cuts for the wheelchairs when you rebuild a sidewalk; yes, design your building with wide enough doors for a wheelchair, and wide enough aisles for two chairs to pass, and without a high threshold to cross (that's difficult for someone with arthritis to walk over as well). But no, don't tell the architect that he cannot stagger the levels of tables in a restaurant, so long as a reasonable number of tables are accessible without dealing with stairs (and no, that doesn't mean access to just the tables by the kitchen doors, either), and no, don't spend the money to perform a major retrofit on an existing structure that isn't likely to get much use by the handicapped anyway. Having 100% access isn't that important to us (contrary to what the limousine liberals would have you believe), as long as we are treated with respect and not pity.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I would like to know what people think about the ADA and what they have done to the R142 subway car to make it more "accessable"
I don't know about you but i have NEVER seen a wheel chair person on a train. And the cost of elevaters for every station would be in the billions, they could use that money for the 2nd Av.]
The sad thing is that for much less money we could offer effective paratransit service to the seriously handicapped while installing escalators to serve the elderly, who constitute the vast majority of people unable to use the subway system. Instead we're wasting vast sums of money on a system that's largely useless and wheelchair lifts that delay bus service.
That bit about the missing poles burns me up, too. As anyone knows, they're almost indispensable in a crowded car. Just reinforces my suspicion that certain bureaucrats and politicians have never even seen a NYC subway, never mind been on one during rush hour. They presumably think that everybody lines up with one hand on a strap and the other on a folded Times like those pictures in the New Yorker.
The longitudnal bar running beneath the center of the ceiling is a lot better, this means anyone standing anywhere in the car will have a pole at reach.
[The longitudnal bar running beneath the center of the ceiling is a lot better, this means anyone standing anywhere in the car will have a pole at reach.]
Unfortunately, people stand by the doors, because people don't move away from them. And overhead grips are uncomfortable.
If they're tall enough and/or close enough to the bar. If not, there could be complaints, and they may have to retrofit some bars, possibly near the edge of seats next to the doors to avoid blocking the aisles for wheelchairs. Or, of course, they could go back to those lovely straps they had on the R-10/R-12/R-14s :)
Whatever problems there are with handgrips for the passnegers will become fairly apparent a short time after the first cars go into service, especially if they stick the R-142s on the No. 5 during rush hour.
My arm gets numb holding on to something above me, and I'm kinda short, so attempting to reach an overhead bar which I think is higher than the overhead ones by the lights doesn't look too appealing. Why not just lower the ceiling so people can hold onto it like many do on on a crowded R-46.
On Wm. Palter's website there are photos in the section "demolition of Bronx NYC stations," showing MNRR stations that supposedly were torn down in the 70's. But according to the current subway map, at least two (Woodlawn and Fordham) are still in existence. And there's even a 1996 picture of the same Fordham station on THIS site (i.e., nysubway.org) in the MNRR section. So what gives? And can someone please ID the handsome concrete 1920's vintage station pictured at www.palter.org/~sbway/74-04-02/08.jpg? Was that one torn down (I hope not!) or is it, too, still alive and well? Thanks.
Woodlawn and Fordham still exist and are in use today, so I don't know what Wm. Palter is talking about. What's the URL to his site??
Clark Palicka
Clark: Here is the address. The site has some great photos of the Culver Shuttle, Bronx 3rd Ave. El, etc. But I'm a little lost on the "demolition of Bronx NYC stations," even though there IS one photo of a station being torn down. Thanks for your help.
http://www.palter.org/~subway/index.html
The only Bronx Metro-North station that still has a staion house is Fordham, which appears at the end of the fourth and start of the fifth row of pictures on the site you mentioned. A few stations have been closed altogether, but most simply had the station houses demolished during "renovations" of the stations, i.e. there are new platforms and stairs, but no buildings. The station house at Tremont (third row center and right) was demolished just a few months ago (at least I heard a few months ago it was being demolished) after lying closed and derelict for years. I don't know why the page is labeled "demolition" since that doesn't really seem to be its focus.
Thanks much! Now I've been able to get ID's for 3 of the 5 (at least, I think there 5 different ones shown) stations pictured on that page. Can you help ID the station that looks like it's being torn down (or else lost most of its roof in a fire) in the top row? And the interesting brick station in the bottom row, left and middle? Could one or the other be Melrose, Botanical Gardens, Williams Bridge or Wakefield, which are the other Harlem Line stations shown on the subway map?
P.S.: Is it possible that the station being torn down was the University Heights station on the Hudson line?
Click here for a press release describing the grants awarded to NYC under the 1999 TEA-21 Transportation Enhacements Program (TEP). TEP funds are awarded by NYDOT based on applications filed at the county or city level. Money from TEP can go to rail related projects, including transportation museums, historic railways and rails-to-trails, however, it appears none of the NYC grants fall into this category in this round.
This is the announcement of $11 million in little handouts. As concerned as I am about the inflated cost of construction, $11 million is a joke. This is why we don't get anything built in this city.
Two years from now in the recession, when the Manhattan Bridge is closed, service is cut, the fare is $2.25 and the capital program consists of the LIRR to GCT and nothing else, the polls will be issueing press releases for $11,000 in grants. And the newspapers will be covering it.
[Two years from now in the recession, when the Manhattan Bridge is closed, service is cut, the fare is $2.25 and the capital program consists of the LIRR to GCT and nothing else, the polls will be issueing press releases for $11,000 in grants. And the newspapers will be covering it.]
I can't figure out for the life of me why they're spending all that money on the LIRR extension rather than bringing the LIRR into the lower level of GCT via the Metro North tracks. There are technical differences, of course, but I can't imagine it would cost $4.8 billion to accomodate them. Seems to me they could build the stubway *and* do LIRR access with the money.
?
I guess for THAT money couple of fences in Midtown Manhattan intersections and perhaps if there's something left over a traffic light in the middle of the block.
Arti
Pork Pork Pork
Guess saomeone has to get paid back for paid.
Pork Pork Pork
Guess someone has to get paid back for paid.
Pork Pork Pork
Guess someone has to get paid back or paid.
Pork comes in different flavours. The TEP application process starts at the community level, where a government agency, or a non-profit organisation sponsored by a government agency, files an application for a candidate project in one of the 12 qualifying categories. A 20% non-federal match is required. Once the applications are filed, they are ranked by the DOT region, then passed up to a state committee to make the final selections. In the 1999 TEP round announced over the past few weeks, a total of about $40 million is being distributed state-wide.
We may debate who ultimately receives money from the eligible applications, but TEP provides the mechanism where federal money can go to projects which would otherwise not receive it.
TEP of course is a tiny piece of TEA-21. TEA-21 mandated projects, transportation projects explicitly named in the statute to receive money, are the really big pork.
I feel honored that there is a whole thread talking about me!
[Click here for a press release describing the grants awarded to NYC under the 1999 TEA-21 Transportation Enhacements Program (TEP). TEP funds are awarded by NYDOT based on applications filed at the county or city level. Money from TEP can go to rail related projects, including transportation museums, historic railways and rails-to-trails, however, it appears none of the NYC grants fall into this category in this round.]
Riverside Drive a bicycle route? LOL. Hope they save those elms, though--they truly are a national treasure.
I went Railfanning today on the Number 7 to 74th and then the E back to Jamaica Center. On the number 7, Motorman 301 (Mr Coleman) told me that last week he had a Number 7 that had a Broken B2. He showed me a demonstration of how bad a Train is without a Electro-pnuematic Brake. He turned his B2 off, and then started to pull the Brake handle between Junction Blvd and 90th Elmhurst avenue. He pulled a Full service brake, and instead of the Train applying its usual 80 lbs of air, the red needle barely made 20 lbs. Makes me and other MM appreciate the Dynamic braking and the Electro part of the brakes that applies the brakes on all cars at the same time. Also, TA has their stuff planned out well don't they? For example, I heard an announcement in Roosevelt-Jackson heights Station saying " This R Train will not open the doors in the first Car" One thing, who says that? the Towerman or a Platform Conductor?
The microphone for that station is in the tower. However there is a hand held radio mic for the platform dispatcher for use in morning rush hours.
I'm not sure about the wisdom of deliberately operating a train in service with the B-2 in the 'Off' position or creating any simulated defect to facilitate a demonstration while in service. I'm also sure that since this site is viewed by several NYCT managers, Mr. Coleman might not appreciate having his name and run number publically aired.
I thought MM were Trained through the new Simulator. Do they still Train MM's on the Simulator or on the Road?
They use both, but the simulator leaves a lot to be desired. Most actual training takes place on the road.
What does this have to do with Mothers Against Drunk Driving?
I stood on the Platform on the Queens bound E,F,G,R in Jackson heights Roosevelt Avenue station today. I noticed that the R32's Brakes can be seen applying when the E Train stops. However, I have no idea how the Brakes work on the R46 cars. I always see the F Train come in on the Manhattan-bound side. However, their brakes are not like on the R32's where they can be seen. For some reason, I can't se the brakes, SO HOW DOES THE TRAIN STOP? The same thing with the A division Cars on the 6 line
Cars delivered after the R-42 have what are called Tread Brake Units. Sometimes called package barkes. There are four on each truck mounted in board of the frame. Each has it's own cylinder and acts in a lever fashion to appply a single shoe against the wheels from between the axle sets. Less moving parts and fewer wearable shoes to replace, although that also means a sightly higher cylinder pressure.
"although that also means a sightly higher cylinder pressure."
Actually, the brake cylinder pressure on a TBU will be roughly double that of a standard clasp brake. For example, Brake Cyl. Pressure on an R-32 in full service under heavy load is (I believe) 32 PSI plus or minus 2 PSI. On the R-46 under the same load conditions, the BCP is 68 PSI +/- 2 PSI
I remember when in december I rode the number 7 Train with snow and everything. However, one thing I don't understand, is this. I went on the Train. The T/O put her brake handle inside the slot and put it into the Charge position. However, the Train was too cold to start and the air guage said 20 only. Then another M/M said want me to help feed it? He went into another Cab, and somehow, the Train started and we were able to get the 110 air pressure we needed to move. I would like to know if u guys could tell me how he did that?
Sounds as if the leadcar(s) air compressor wasn't running. The second man may have gone to the #2 cab to reset the circuit breaker for the compressor.
In the event of a bad compressor throwing a reverser energizes the A wire trainline. The straight air pipe's application valve in all cars will charge it to 110 Lbs. Inoperative compressors will likely have resivoirs below that pressure and a check valve will allow a backfeed of straight air pipe pressure to the supply resivior and allow a train to be charged despite a bad compressor in the lead car.
It will charge slowly and after several brake applications the Brake Pipe pressure will fall if the remaining compressors aren't allowed time to recharge. As a safety feature should the brake pipe fall below 90, the train's brakes will apply in emergency.
Erik, isn't there also a second trickle-charge valve that allows
the BP to back-charge the main reservoir?
If the T/O follows proper procedure, this would never happen. If she had thrown her reverser foward and the Control Cutout was on, the 3 wire would feed the A wire through the emergency contactor in each car. This causes Main Reservoir in each car to feed the brakepipe regardless of whether the car had a compressor or not or if it was working or not. Most T/Os throw the reverser before trying to charge but few check the CCO first.
It does happen, especially on redbirds. I know, because it happened to me this past winter. Contol cutout CB was on, the reverser was thrown forward, but the train would only charge to about 40 lbs. I had an RCI throw a reverser in another car to help with the backfeed.
When you throw the reverser, under normal circumstances, before you place the brake handle in charge, you should see the SAP immediately raise to 110 PSI. If this occurs, then the train should charge without trouble - even with the pump down in the head pair. If the SAP doesn't raise to 110 PSI, it indicates a problem with the 3 to A feed in the head car or an open T/Line 3 wire. Even as such, if the pump in the head pair is operating, the train still should charge normally. Logically, if the problem you are referring to is more than a rare occurrence, there is an error in maintenance that is being repeated.
I don't know how often that particular problem happens out at Main St, but on that particular day -1/18/00 - this problem occurred quite often. At the time I was told that it was because of the weather. Perhaps it would be best to find someone who works in Corona barn and ask them.
I remember last time I was on the 7, we were at main street, and the t/o must have been having trouble charging - the train was making this fairly frequent "pfft" noise (like what the AEM-7s do) every second or so. After a min or two, doors opened and the "this train is cancelled" announcement was made.
I've also heard that MN and LIRR equipment leaks like crazy, and you can sometimes hear them, though I've never gotten stuck on them anyway.
Hey - anyone know why the heck you have to hit a button to get those suckers to charge up?
Because the charging magnet valve is not on a seperate train line wire, and it doesn't have a contact in the master controller. The R-46 used to in the P wire days. Eight cars would charge up as fast as one did.
But my question on SMEE braking was this: is there a passageway,
protected by a limiting orifice and a check valve, that allows
the BP to back-feed the main reservoir? If not, how do Westinghouse
propulsion packages get air if the compressor on that car/pair
is down?
On a related note, if the compressor is down on the head car,
where does the air come from to keep on replenishing small leaks
in the BP?
Yes Jeff, the BP can back feed the supply resivoir on a B/O car. The system is set up that leaks in the BP can be replenished through a check valve after the emergency vent valve has moved over from emergency to service.
Do this with 6688 next time you have a chance: charge the BP to 70 PSI and move the valve handle to release. The car will continue to charge on it's own. And you'll be surprised to note quite fast as well.
A few different mechanisms at play though.
1) Charging up BP when the operating brake valve is not in full service: Does this occur because the charging poppet valve on
the brake valve does not fully seat in service range, allowing a
trickle charge of BP to make up for leaks?
2) Keeping air in the supply reservoir to operate the control
equipment on Westinghouse cars (and historically the air doors
on the R-10s) when the compressor is dead. Where is the feed path
from SAP or BP? Where is the valve or orifice that does this?
3) Getting feed valve air at the head-end brake valve when the
compressor there is dead. Again, where is the back-feed path?
1) Once the initial air signal is sent to the operating units to charge the train, the emergency vent valve will slide over from emergency to service at around 80 PSI. The charging valve setting controls the exact point. Once over a check valve will allow supply air to charge the BP locally. That helps the train charge faster and makes up for leaks. The Brake Valve will only charge the BP when the handle is in full service.
2) Either, depending on which has the greater pressure. When the SAP is empty, the BP, and vice versa. That is the function of all those various check valves on the operating unit. All the auxilliary functions like control groups and air engines came from the supply resivoir.
3) From a good car's A valve to feed the SAP to the B/O car's operating unit. From there through the check and into the supply resivoir. Should there be no B+ it can still be donr by placing the brake handle in the emergency position and leaving it there until the SAP reaches 110 PSI.
If memory serves there are three or four checks for these functions and most have associated chokes. I learned the practical application of this stuff trying to get the old R-16,17,21,22,27,30 work motors running.
Thanks Erik. I've never noticed where all those check valves
are. Then again, I haven't had reason to go looking!
Item one is relatively easy to prove if you do the following:
1) De-energize the 3 wire while the train is in emergency. Either open CCO or center the reverser.
2) Fully vent the straight air then go to charge. This will allow you to hear the check valves closing.
3) Charge the brakes to 30 pounds then go to full release. If the BP needle holds steady, then quickly lap the valve to full service then back to full release. When the needle starts to go up, keep the valve in full release. As soon as you hear a sharp puff of air, you will also hear the brake cylinders release and if you are lucky to have decent hearing, unlike some union rep transit workers, you will actually hear the main reservoir emptying it's air. The R62a cars do this really well and with the work cars with in board volume reservoirs and brake cylinder guages, it is cool.
You and I simply have TOO much experience with this type of expermentation!
It also sounds like you both have way too much time on your hands.
I wish! The things I learned were at a time 15 years ago when I did have too much time on my hands.
Yes and it is called WAA :-)
Considering the new work programs, it's likely more accurate to say "itwas called WAA. :)
Today, my 6th grade teacher, who grew up in the Bronx, told me that the 5 and 7 went on the White Plains Road IRT. I told her that it was the 2 and the 5 and the 7 was the Flushing Line. She said this was as of the 1950s or 60s (I didn't come along for 20-30 years). Who is correct?
The '7' was always the Flushing line, from the time the route numbers were introduced on the IRT with the arrival of the R-12s in 1948.
-- Ed Sachs
Well, if you lived in Brooklyn, the #7 referred to the Franklin Ave shuttle.
The Dyre Ave shuttle was called the "#9" from 1940 to 1956, when it was connected into the IRT mainline.
Maybe to her the #2 looked like a #7.
By the way, the #2 (7th Avenue) was the Dyre Avenue line until the early 1960's when they switched terminals. The #5 was 100% White Plains Road service.
Hello friends. Soggy weekend huh?
I was very fortunate to have spent much of Sunday on the
South Channel Bridge. I was doubly fortunate to have had
no rain coming down while I was there. Sunny skies and no
wind with temps up in the 70's. It was a blessing that
while I was there it didn't rain. During all the hours
preceding and following, torrential downpours and ugly
skies predominated. Gee I sound like Todd now.
The Bridge was closed because it was open. That is there
was no service so the bridge could be worked on. In itself
that was a pleasure. It's not often that I am pleased by
no trains going by, but it gave me the time to explore and
learn rather than flag trains.
When we arrived at 11 AM, the flaggers who had been there
since dawn wanted to go home. Unfortunately they had to
wait until the bridge closed up before they could leave.
One of them was on it, and I don't think she cared to swim
over. As a joke we told her a boat would arrive shortly
and that she would have to rappel down to it if she didn't
want to wait the three hours until the bridge would be
closed again. We laughed, she didn't.
The structure of the bridge is fascinating, more when it's
consdered that it's only a small version of much larger
swing bridges found all over the world. I have been
crossing that bridge for the last 17 years and I had
thought it familiar. I never knew it like I do now. The
rails at the ends of the swing span do not line up when
the bridge closes. Hydraulic rams must lift the ends and
further support them as trains pass. The rail ends have
wedge like connecting bars to make a smooth joint for the
wheels to pass over. The same hydraulic ram lifts them as
well.
When the bridge is open, the mechanisms for holding the
span fast to the approach viaducts are clearly visible.
Heavily covered with grease are steel bars bent into the
shape of the letter M. A giant latching mechanism
underneath each of the span's ends drops a pin into the
center of the "M" holding the bridge shut.
The span itself is of riveted construction and the steel
supporting the track is rather lighter than I had
expected. It reminds me of the steel used on the spindly
old elevateds in Brooklyn. Myrtle Avenue from the junction
south. It's in desperate need of a paint job and I'm
surprised at the TA for allowing it to rust as badly as it
has. It appears to not have been painted since the early
1980's. Rust has taken hold but no serious damage was
apparent to my admitedly untrained eye.
The piers surrounding the center pylon and the approach
viaducts are newly replaced with fresh wood and the
decking is a wonderful and confidence building fiberglass.
It lasts forever in the salty enviornment of Beach
Channel. The contractors have made a temporary home for
themselves on the pier of the center pylon and live out of
some trailers that beg the question: how did they get
here?
Barges transported most all of everything. The workmen
arrive daily from a parking lot on shore via a walkway
adjacent to the tracks. There is still a barge moored
alongside the support columns of the south approach
viaduct. Speaking of which, their condition is worth
mentioning. In a word: cracks. The pillars resemeble a
giant set of jigsaw puzzles, crossed with so many pink
spray paint lines marking the locations of major cracks.
That's another project which will undoubtedly affect train
service in some way.
Walking across the span is just like strolling down your
home block, albeit with a better view. Thanks to the sure
footed steel grate decking. In between tracks is the
tradional wood walkway with it's loose, cracked and fear
inspiring boards. The ties and rail date from 1983 and are
a stark contrast. the rail is in very good condition while
the ties ought to be condemned. Many are too rotten to
hold spikes any longer and some are outright shells of
timber unable to support the weight of a grown man let
alone a train. Meanwhile almost all the ties on the
approach spans are in the excellent condition I have come
to expect of our track department.
On either side midspan is a stairway to the operators
shack located directly above the train way. I had never
seen the original, but this new one is better than where I
live. A full kitchen and dining table. Microwave, stove,
refrigerator, locker room and bunks, lavatory and I think
a shower. Those fellas do alright. State of the art HVAC
goes without saying. A desk with a computer for logging
all events sits alongside the bridge operations console.
Those of you expecting the control panel off of the Death
Star will be disappointed. It looks more like the left
half of an R-46's console. On the upper right corner is a
15 inch dial readout, which on first look appears to be a
clock. It shows the exact position of the bridge relative
to the approachways. Closed being zero degrees and open
either 90 or 180. Yes the bridge can and does open both
wys and generally opens with the operator facing oncoming
water traffic.
The operator's windows face south and his controls are
automatic. Control permission must be electrically granted
by the tower at Rockaway Park before the bridge can be
operated. On neccesary occasions the bridge can be
operated manually. This method forces the operator to jog
the bridge a few feet at a time into the exact closed
position and taxes the mechanisms. So it's a no brainer
that automatic is the prefered mode. Watching the bridge
operated in that manner is interesting to view as this
massive structure stumbles and jerks into exact position,
then lifts itself into alignment for the rail heads to
drop into their places.
Riding the bridge from one of the ends is a real wierd
experience. It starts slow enough to be unnoticable, and
ramps up to about 5 MPH yet as you stare the length of the
deck and watch the scenery move across your field of view,
it can't be helped feeling as if there's something wrong
with the world. I'd liken it to riding the lower
automobile deck of one of the Staten Island Ferries and
looking ahead from amidships.
On the south side of the center span the access stairway
contnues to the roof of the control shack. The view there
is outstanding. Here are the A/C units and the massive air
horns which must be sounded when opening and closing the
bridge. All around are bare steel 4/0 cables connected to
the steel structure on one end and lightning rods that
look like feather dusters made from USSteel's finest.
Those rods are also installed on the newly built concrete
buildings for power located on either side of the span and
on the center pier. I sat up on top there while the bridge
was operated again. It's barely perceptible from that
height.
The stairway on the opposite side leads below instead of
up. Here is where the bridge drive motors are. Amazingly
the two motors are a mere 50 H.P. each. Formerly operated
by the same 600 VDC as the trains, they now run off of
comercial LILCO 480 three phase AC. For emergencies there
is a Detroit Diesel generator on the North end of the
control shack. Silenced quite nicely I would add.
The old motors are similar in appearance to the tracion
motors installed on pre war R type cars. Westinghouse
quality apparently because these motors lasted a good 45
years in regular service. I'm told these motors were
canabalized from the North Channel Bridge but I can't
confirm that. The new ones were installed in the same
location connected by drive shafts to both sides of the
gear case which turns the bridge. Either alone is capable
of rotating the span's structure. Just 50 H.P!
The chamber in which the motors are housed sits directly
below the bridge and has hatches which remind me of a
submarine. In here, on the North side are the motors, gear
case and some electrical junctions. The vast majority of
the space is occupied by he contractor's tools and
equipment. The "Easy Rider" calander made me remember
Steve's love of motorcycles. One of the iron workers is a
Harley man.
The Bridge's weight is supported on a spindle that is
hidden from view so I can't describe it. My tour was
largely self guided after all. Surrounding the center
spindle is a toothed gear I'd guess was 25 feet across.
The gear drive is driven around this ring gear, and the
span is steadied but not supported by several 25 inch
steel wheels (not flanged!) that roll on top of a race
which is part of the ring gear. I could tell they do not
hold the bridge's weight because a few were not actually
on the race but in the air. What I found most interesting
was that the TA's elevator and escalator department
maintains the bridge. I'd have thought another like
structure.
Operators and maintainers reach the bridge from a small
platform at either end of the bridge meant for trains to
stop alongside. Crews open one door panel to allow the
bridge personnel to exit or enter. That wasn't neccesary
Sunday because the line was shut down for the weekend.
Shuttle busses were provided to the public with the
drivers on overtime. The costs associated with this bridge
work must be outstanding. And I don't only mean money.
Passenger good will is almost nonexistant on the
peninusla.
Those busses were empty that I saw on the van ride back to
the flagging quarters, and as most of us know ridership to
and from Rockaway Park at even the rush hours is low. The
West end of the Rockaway peninsula has more affluent homes
and express bus riding is the prefered way to travel to
Manhattan for these people. I can't say as I blame them.
Almost from the begining the TA has treated the Rockaways
as a burden. An extra fare was charged up until the late
1970's. Most of the time running a 20 minute headway and
with a shuttle train ride followed by a long run through
Brooklyn before reaching LOWER Manhattan I would take the
bus too. Night's making A l l L o c a l S t o p s, hell
would you ride that train? So factor in the insult to
injury of regular service disruptions by shuttle bus (a
NYC passengers worst nightmare) it's no wonder almost no
one rides the train out there.
Rockaway service should be a premium service with a super
express run skiping almost all the Brooklyn stops and all
the Queens ones other than the airport. Hey, it would
encourage use of that idiot "Airtrain" the Port Authority
is constructing. What ever is done they need a lot more
than the five through trains in each rush hour that the TA
now provides. Spending the millions to fix the bridge will
mean nothing if no one rides.
In closing, I have to remember this: next time I work on
that bridge I'm bringing a fishing rod! The boaters along
the bridge were scoring incredible numbers of flounder.
In Transit;
Erik F. Garces
Conductor/Construction Flagger
IND-BMT
Great post, Erik.
I'm scheduled to work this Friday, 4:08-6:08pm doing Transit and Weather Together on WCBS. Maybe you'd like to give it a try?!?!?
Yeah!
Fantastic post, Erik. Thank you for a window from NYCT to the WWW from a different perspective.
Erik, my dad used to work MOW and one story he told me was of atime when they did take a boat out to this line as it crossed the bay, since the trains couldn't make it due to flooding.
Wow - as a bridge fan I'd love to get the "nickel tour" that you had. Thanks for the excellent description.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Great description of one of the more off-beat sections of the system.
BTW -- do you know if the same system for lining up the rails is used for the Broadway bridge on the No. 1 train?
The Broadway Bridge is a lift bridge, it would not be the same.
Erik, wonderful stuff--this is what I treasure this site for!
Just out of interest, does anyone know the rough population of the Rockaways, and what is the distance from Manhatten?
I don't know the population, but Hammell's wye is about 18 miles from Penn Station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The chaining codes on the Rockaway Line are still counted from Long Island City along the branch through Forest Park (the one with the stations closed in 1997).
Erik ...
Dave's on vacation this week. Next week, ask him to add your post to the IND Rockaway Line's page. It'll make a great addtition.
Nice work.
--Mark
Where does the tender park his car? At the Delair lift bridge in South Jersey the bridge tender uses an access road that takes him up to CP-Jersey (the way the PRR men used to get to Jersey Tower) where there is a parking space. However, because of the hi-crime in the area and that the tender can in no way keep track of his car there is a fenced enclousure rimmed with razor wire. He pulls in and locks the gate.
The Delair Bridge is truely neat. It was built in 1898 with 3 ~550 foot truss spans and a swing span. There was also a long approach on the PA side. In 1960 the swing span was deemed a navigational hazard so the Army Corps came in and installed a new 500 foot lift span. Because the lift span and adjacent towers were bigger than the previous truss they had to knock about 40 feet off of the PA truss so now it is rather a-symetrical. The Delair is also interesting in that NJT owned and operates the northern track and CR/CSX ownes and operates the southern track. Tranis make quite a racket going over the bridge because of its all I-bar concturction.
Question: Is the South Channel bridge equipped with smash boards that the tender lowers when he's about to open the bridge?
I know the bridge you're talking about. It does look
strange. On the S. Channel care takers use the train or if they choose park in the lot at Hammels Wye
tower/substation. Then they walk across a deck that's suspended on the East side of the southern approach.
There are no safety devices other than the signal system to prevent trains from crossing while the span is open. The signals are home signals and they are located a good distance away so as to assure a sufficient stopping time.
Great post Erik, Thanks!
The bridge has to be maintained even if there was no service. I can see leaving it open like the Arthur Kill Rail Bridge (next to the Gothels) if service was stopped but the US Coast Guard would require this bridge be maintained since it is listed as a navigable waterway on all charts and maps. The TA (or MTA) as the current owner needs to keep it up to those standards as well from the marine traffic point of view (nothing falling off of it for example).
I had to drive into Ridgewood, Queens today. On the elevated Bay Ridge branch there was a long train of the recently phased-out LIRR diesel coaches (not moving). I'm not sure how many cars there were in total, but it stretched at least from Myrtle Ave. to Seneca Ave. - three blocks. I assume these cars will be going to Bay Ridge.
Unfortunately, I didn't have my camera with me. I lived in Ridgewood near the Bay Ridge line for over 25 years and this was the first time I ever saw passenger coaches on it!
Bob, if things work out this weekend, I'll make a trip over to Bush Terminal -- the likely lay-over for the coaches till a float barge is ready to take them outta town.
I'll let you know what I see (I'll have my camera with me).
Doug aka BMTman
From what everyone seems to thing about those old LIRR coaches, maybe it won't be a barge, but a garbage scow that they make a voyage on!!
Well, despite the fact that you couldn't see out of the windows the last couple of years and that the heat/AC often didn't work properly, they did have some good points, from a railfan point of view (right Sarge?). The open vestibules on the last car, if there wasn't a locomotive behind, afforded a very nice wide open view.
Yep!!!
While the Diesel coaches were still operating, the train that runs through the Bethpage-to-Babylon (Main) line sometime around 5:43PM (approaching Babylon - weekdays), was minus the rear locomotive (It's a Bilevel now). There would usually be a few people standing out on the open rear platform, enjoying the view. This train was usually made up of the #2900 series coaches, which seemed to be in somewhat better condition than their #2700 and #2800 series counterparts; on the one occasion I got one on the Saturday 9:02 out of Babylon the windows weren't clouded over and it didn't smell like a latrine. Anyway, this train was sometimes as long as ten coaches long, with the first two being Parlor Cars (these were Diesel Coaches with deodorizers?) - probably headed for Montauk.
Wayne
I know the 3:24 out of LIC (4:00 out of Jamaica) had no back engine and always had manual doors. Good times...
A garbage scow is too good for them.
Perhaps they'll sink them out at sea.
wayne :o>
"I didn't say she should be HAULING garbage; I said she should be hauled away AS garbage!"
And that's when I hit him, sir.
-Hank :)
An LIRR train stuffed full of tribbles -- that's kind of the way the MTA sees its clientele anyway, isn't it?
If you go, let me know. I could probably make it on Saturday.
They may have come out of the Belmount Raceway siding where I've seen a number of them sitting, have to look on the way home tonight & see if they are still there.
Mr t__:^)
[They may have come out of the Belmount Raceway siding ...]
Last night passing that race track the coaches were gone, so I guess that's where they came from ?
Mr t__:^)
I guess they had to move them. The track opens in a few weeks and they need those tracks for the Belmont Specials.
Interesting post. I lived on Catalpa Avenue near St Matthias church for about 30 years. As you may recall in 1988 when the Tri State NRHS held the annual NRHS convention in New Jersey, they organized a fantrip over the Bay Ridge line but canceled it due to lack of demand. Pity, I bought a ticket and was looking forward to it. I did ride over the Bushwick branch on a fantrip in 1980 or so, but I'm too young to have ridden the RDC trip that covered the Evergreen branch in 1965 or so. Anyone have any recollections of that trip?
For those of you who never heard of me before I went on-line, perhaps you wonder why I am increasingly upset. I know that this is about as good as the economy gets, and nothing -- boom or bust -- goes on forever. And if this is as good as it gets, it stinks. The transit system is going deeper into hock, with no big improvments realistically on the horizon. How come everyplace else can make improvments and NYC can't? The debt is rising, the schools are declining, taxes are still high, and job growth in Brooklyn is still weak.
It doesn't FEEL bad, if you aren't wondering what bad times will be be like if this is as good as it gets.
the same thing you posted is going on here on the west coast ..............
now they say the pasadena blue line... ( construction )... is being held up because of a low census 40% return ?? B.S.!!
you said it right dont think you are all alone !! .
Hey, I proposed that if federal funding to the city is cut, all the reductions be concentrated in neighborhoods with low census return rates. Sounds fair to me.
Similar to "if you don't vote, don't complain about the politicians", I think an another appropriate saying would be "if you don't fill out your census form, don't complain about your locality being shortchanged by the government"
vote and the politicians lie cheat and steal and your vote goes no where...... ( i know my last vote was betrayed )
not filling out the senseless census form will not short-change anybody ! The census is nothing but a lie anyway !!
However some of you SHEEP and SHEEPLE pony up all of your info everytime uncle sam acts like a peping tom!!
you get shortchanged by the senseless census anyway so why do you believe the hype !!....... i dont !!...
I'll second that.
people vote every election and the will of the people is betrayed every time !! The lie (s) of the senseless census is only for how many seats in high government of which dont represent anyone except the big government appointed and some elected office holders senate house etc... THATS IT ! not money coming to low income towns cities and neighbor-hoods....!! the only useless flim flam scam once every ten years
are so many the privacy invasion (s) too high etc.....not to mention all of the promise (s) and lies !!.
And the 10 year WAIT for funding that never ever comes and the Lies and deciet !!
When I lived in atlanta there was this politician named Pat...SWINDALL ..!! ..& another named CROOK !!
it seems that that label applies to some of you on this subtalk forum ( you have been swindlled and like it ! )
finally the ultimate lie here on the west coast ""WE ARE HOLDING UP CONSTRUCTION ON THE PASADENA BLUE LINE ""
( because of a projected low census count ) ????.......give me a break !!
Similar to "if you don't vote, don't complain about the politicians", I think an another appropriate saying would be "if you don't fill out your census form, don't complain about your locality being shortchanged by the government"
Yes, but as long as census responses are paper-based, they will be subject to immense manipulation.
Anybody who wants an area to lose out need only destroy that area's responses, and then claim that there were none.
made my point !! sample-ing would be better ! no privacy invasions and wrong persons with all of your private
information !! actually even if all the paper arrives the areas you stated there will still targets for funding cuts !!
The Senseless Census feeds the misinformed public have them jumping for grapes they will never eat !!
just like charlie brown running up to the football again & lucy pulls it away- and again only to fall flat on his back !!
and so here we go again with another ..10 TEN.. years nothing is being done like the last 10 years and here it is 2010 ...!!
and this senseless census B.S. comes around again with the same promise (s) .....!!!!!!!!!!
I thought I was tired of the Manny Blurbs and the Pelham propaganda, but that was mild in comparison to this census crap. Can we just put this thing out to pasture finally and utterly. Big Salaam is not going to be convinced by any of us that the Census is of any use to his people and therefore we should not waste our time. Besides, I'm getting the impression a couple of you out there are pulling his chain, just as he is doing to the rest of us. It's getting us nowhere fast. So let's cool it, OK??????
No, nobody is provoking him, he's just responding to messages.
Killfile him, you obviously don't like him and realise how he contributes nothing but crap to this board.
falamge-ad hominem -atacks- &-insults !.......... the only crap you seem to post ....1
what federal funding ?? it has been cut off since the 1980s - and the lie that you beleive is that the senseles census is connected how and where ??
Reductions in neighborhoods where funding is non exhistant ??"since when did you believe in government ??
when did you submit your federal funding proposal to the city cuts ?? ......Hey!! caught you in a lie ??
[Hey, I proposed that if federal funding to the city is cut, all the reductions be concentrated in neighborhoods with low census return rates. Sounds fair to me.]
What about a law that says that people who don't fill out the census don't have access to government programs? No schools, no subways, no medical care, the cops and fire department won't come when called . . .
But we're so damn masochistic in NYC that sick people fly here from around the world to get free operations they couldn't otherwise afford.
the senseless census has nothing to do with reductions and cut in neighborhoods with high or low census return
counts.. not fair to anybody !! no law says that anyone who does not fill out any senseless census form is
to be targeted and singeled out with no access to any government programs !! totally insane !! for the next 10 years !
how would you sir : mr josh hill would you strictly enforce such a completely masochhic sick ideaology ??
and what S.S. troops would you use to see to it that persons without names and or addresses would be left out ??
also you would have to prove that each and every address refused to paticipate in the census count ?? HOW ??
no law could or would be enforced against anyone who refuses participation in any census and you know it !! so why post such nonsense ??
no fairness at all !!...... please make some sense !.....
And what's so wrong with that. Only people who can afford a life saving operation should get it??????
ok if you are poor you should die !! thats it !! right-wing-folks.??
if you can afford medical care you live ................. if you cant......DIE...!!
another reason to boycott the senseless census !!
"ok if you are poor you should die !! thats it !! right-wing-folks.??
if you can afford medical care you live ................. if you cant......DIE...!!
another reason to boycott the senseless census !!"
What a loon! Guess I'll have to fire up that killfile after all.
hide behind your computer and killfile........!
[And what's so wrong with that. Only people who can afford a life saving operation should get it??????]
I'll be delighted to give people free operations as soon as the cities, states, and countries they come from are willing to do the same for me. (Hint: they aren't).
This is simple. If something is cut because of low census rate returns, then you have NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN if you didn't fill out your form! How else do you expect them to allocate funds? Telepathy?
[This is simple. If something is cut because of low census rate returns, then you have NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN if you didn't fill out your form! How else do you expect them to allocate funds? Telepathy?]
Unfortunately, the government knows perfectly well how to deal with the undercount--there are simple statistical techniques that would correct the errors, and the Census Bureau would love to use them. But Congress refuses to let them, because it would mean equitable funding and representation for cities. New York took the issue to the Supreme Court, but lost.
If it were just a matter of the people who don't fill out the census forms not getting services, I'd have no problem (hence my tongue-in-cheek proposal). But it doesn't work that way--everybody in an area suffers. Sam fills out his census form and Joe doesn't, but because Sam lives next to Joe he gets his services and representation cut too. The sad reality is that you, I, and everybody else who lives in or near an urban area ends up footing the bill and losing power in congress because of those people who don't fill out their forms. All of that could be changed if we just enforced the law, which says that you have to do it.
another reason why sample-ing is what should be done !! congress and govrnment is out of touch with subway
and bus riders who work for slave wages everyday ?? mr josh hill are you saying that your congress understands
the average working class american people you seem to insist that everybody participate the senseless census with ??
in short ( not just my complaint ) is that many persons like yourself seems to be flim flammed and decieved
into believing every thing big out of control government the senseless census and every con uncle sam puts out !!
i do agree with you that sample-ing would be the ay to go ! but why you get mad at persons who are fed up with the lies etc...and
this invasion of personal privacy and follow up invasions of senseless census enumerators once every ten years???
there is a word for this"" poppycock"" !! there is no allocation of public funding connected to the census !!
if you disagree follow up on this every year until the next senseless-census ... 2010 .....!! ( no connection )
and try to pry some this related ( as you say )... information out of them and go nowhere !!
[there is no allocation of public funding connected to the census !!]
Even if that were true, representation in congress depends on it, and areas with fewer representatives get less money.
Corruption, uncaring entrenched special interests (especially true with NYC education) and most importantly, NIMBYism.
Maybe this really is as good as it's going to get in the outer boroughs. Manhattan always will be the job engine for the city. Staten Island and Queens get some decent spillover jobs in the telecom industry. NJ is getting the better spillover jobs, but not all go to NJ residents as reverse commuting is growing. Brooklyn has Metrotech but not much else to draw in the jobs of the future. I think the battle to bring high-tech employment to the boroughs is lost. Class-A space is much cheaper in NJ.
You think this is bad, wait until the trendy dot-coms in Manhattan run out of money as investors realize that a lot of these companies are built on air. The worst case would be a major shakeout among the dot-coms which would mean lots of available office space in Class-B buildings. Try renting that with all that Class-A space across the river. (The worst worst case is Mark Greene + Hillary Clinton + Andrew Cuomo. Pack your bags.)
The most disturbing thing about many NYC liberals is that they almost seem to miss the days of high crime and disorder. To them this is as bad as it gets.
Imagine a NYC with tons less (of our) tax money to throw around, but with the same lousy schools and infrastructure. Pack your bags again.
[The most disturbing thing about many NYC liberals is that they almost seem to miss the days of high crime and disorder. To them this is as bad as it gets.
Imagine a NYC with tons less (of our) tax money to throw around, but with the same lousy schools and infrastructure. Pack your bags again.]
Here we go bashing liberals again. Liberals don't have a monopoly on bad economics. Look to Mr. Reagan -- our first brain-dead President -- and his "trickle-down" theory of economics that didn't work (not to mention his promise of cutting the deficit, yet that was lip-service, too). That's not to say having a Cuomo at the helm is a good thing either!
I have problems with much of liberal-thinking (throwing money at every social problem) but also have problems also with conservative-thinking (back big-business at the expense of the working-class.
I prefer Progressives who try and get at the root of systematic problems instead of knee-jerking to the left or right of every issue.
Doug aka BMTman
Hey, I'm not complaining about the NY government. I think they are doing a great job.
Liberals and conservatives in New York agree on a couple of things -- screw the future, and the education of low and moderate income children. When they do their deal, that's whose head the hatchet gets buried on.
If you care about transportation investment, education in NYC, or debt there is no difference between Pataki and Cuomo, Giliani and Dinkins. Koch was a little better, but not much. Lindsay and Rockefeller? Forgetaboutit!
The word I use is feudalism. Under socialism, you get what you need, at least in theory. Under capitalism, you get what you deserve, at least in theory. But here in NYC and State there are huge numbers of people who have grabbed onto unearned privilege, and get to keep it no matter what.
Liberalism? We are number two in inequitable school funding in the U.S. Conservatism? Not when new businesses get screwed. It's feudalism.
just like the feudalism about what the senseless census is going to do ?
New York City residents often prize themselves on their progressiveness but are really terrified of change. The Status Quo rules here and it will ultimately lead to economic stagnation. The pro-growth Giuliani-Pataki era may only be a brief respite before New York returns to it's usual destructive tax and spend policies cherished by aging hacks like Sheldon Silver.
As for the schools I've come to the sad conclusion most kids and their parents are disinterested in education, so throwing money at it won't do a damn thing at this point. Also you have a generation of kids in public school now whose parents were also in lousy public schools when they were kids.
[New York City residents often prize themselves on their progressiveness but are really terrified of change. The Status Quo rules here and it will ultimately lead to economic stagnation. The pro-growth Giuliani-Pataki era may only be a brief respite before New York returns to it's usual destructive tax and spend policies cherished by aging hacks like Sheldon Silver.]
Lack of progressiveness and resistance to change ties in neatly with lack of sophistication. As I've noted before, the Manhattan elites (the only people in the city whose opinions really count) have very little understanding of what life is like outside their narrow little world. It's not hard to see how this anti-cosmopolitan viewpoint segues into a form of inertia. If you think that people elsewhere in the country are hopelessly backward hicks, you don't see the need to make the city's economy more competitive - for instance, there's no need to cut the business tax burden, as no sane company would ever think of leaving the city for anywhere else.
<elites (the only people in the city whose opinions really count) have very little understanding of what life is like outside their
narrow little world. It's not hard to see how this anti-cosmopolitan viewpoint segues into a form of inertia. If you think that
people elsewhere in the country are hopelessly backward hicks, you don't see the need to make the city's economy more
competitive - for instance, there's no need to cut the business tax burden, as no sane company would ever think of leaving the
city for anywhere else.>>
That definitely was the attitude of the New York political elites from about 1950 through at least the early 1980s, which is why the city lost so much of its middle class to the suburbs and so many of its Fortune 500 companies to other lower tax states.
Unfortunately for mass transit the city elites' naval gazing seems to be in direct relation to the local economy. When the local economy is in a recession and businesses like J.C. Penney, Exxon or American Airlines start fleeing for greener pastures, they act less haughty and self-satisfied. The down side it, those are the times also when there's little money to spent on such things like a Second Ave. subway or other mass transit improvments. AS of now, the city's economy is booming and the cash is there, but all the elites are riding around in stretch Continental limos, and don't see much of a need for any major changes.
i agree with the post on the elites
public education was once in california # 1 now its 44th and sinking !!
the PRISON industry is now # 1!! .......
this is why I argue to prove my point on the senseless useless census !!..
And you can be damn sure it won't get any better if Mark Green becomes the mayor. I've seen this baboon on TV numerous times and each instance I'm less and less impressed. New York is doing well now and I was impressed with the city when I visited last summer. What a contrast to 1991, the last time I was there. Put those liberals back in command and the middle class will depopulate to Long Island or upstate.
[And you can be damn sure it won't get any better if Mark Green becomes the mayor. I've seen this baboon on TV numerous times and each instance I'm less and less impressed. New York is doing well now and I was impressed with the city when I visited last summer. What a contrast to 1991, the last time I was there. Put those liberals back in command and the middle class will depopulate to Long Island or upstate.]
What middle class? It's already gone; NYC is a combination of the rich and the poor.
Agree with you about Mark Green, though. Term limits were a whopping big mistake; we should be offering Giluiani incentives and a raise. One of the City's less attractive qualities is its ingratitude to those few who *do* make a positive difference. Some scandal comes along, and they're history.
I think you mis-interpret the backward looking elite. First of all, there are two of them, liberal and Archie Bunker. The liberals think things are OK, but are likely to go downhill, so they have to stop change. The Archie Bunkers think things have gone downhill, so you have to go backward.
When the liberals start paying attention to business, it is a disaster. Dinkins was pro-business in his own mind -- he handed out tax breaks to existing companies that threatened to leave, and directed investment toward "strategic industries," while raising taxes and fining the heck out of any new businesses. Fortunately the internet -- which no one saw coming at this level and therefore was not strategic -- survived.
What we at DCP really fear is our rivals in the "strategic business" business coming back into power. Probably "new media" will join finance and "unionized high wage manufacturing" in the favored category. Everything else will be screwed.
You're probably right. My point was the elites (business and political) tend to get focused on their own success during the good times and think everything's OK for everybody else, while in bad times the politicians get more focused on saving their jobs, but don't have the money for major mass transit projects, while the business people push for new concessions or they'll leave the city.
Instead of banning all cars from Manhattan, they should just ban all limos. That would get a lot more people in power focused on the east side transit shortage.
[Lack of progressiveness and resistance to change ties in neatly with lack of sophistication. As I've noted before, the Manhattan elites (the only people in the city whose opinions really count) have very little understanding of what life is like outside their narrow little world. It's not hard to see how this anti-cosmopolitan viewpoint segues into a form of inertia. If you think that people elsewhere in the country are hopelessly backward hicks, you don't see the need to make the city's economy more competitive - for instance, there's no need to cut the business tax burden, as no sane company would ever think of leaving the city for anywhere else.]
LOL, calling the Manhattan elite unsophisticated is, well, interesting. I can tell you exactly how they think of the rest of the country: unsophisticated. Simple people who fall for sound bits and vote for distatesfully crooked politicians who steal from them. They are concerned about the poor, in a nice old money is: they believe in doing things for others who have less, as long as it doesn't involve more than a nominal proportion of their income, and as you point out they have little understanding of the realities of middle class life.
They pay high taxes to help the poor, so they don't understand why middle class people don't. They've given black kids scholarships to their schools, so they don't understand why people who send their kids to public schools oppose busing. So yes, there's a certain isolation, but it's not a lack of sophistication--it's just a certain isolation. I see the same thing in people who live in the suburbs or the country--different worlds, and the moment I drive from one to the other I find that I have different concerns.
[New York City residents often prize themselves on their progressiveness but are really terrified of change. The Status Quo rules here and it will ultimately lead to economic stagnation. The pro-growth Giuliani-Pataki era may only be a brief respite before New York returns to it's usual destructive tax and spend policies cherished by aging hacks like Sheldon Silver.
As for the schools I've come to the sad conclusion most kids and their parents are disinterested in education, so throwing money at it won't do a damn thing at this point. Also you have a generation of kids in public school now whose parents were also in lousy public schools when they were kids.]
Damn, I'm spending too much time on this! But--while I think Giuliani has been pro-growth, I think Pataki has been a real disappointment. He makes noises about it, but his tax cuts have been mostly window dressing and too nominal to have an effect. We're still far and away the highest taxed state in the continental US, and we have the 49th highest growth rate as a result. What we need is tax parity with the rest of the country--parity in income and parity in services--or better, because we're in competition with the least expensive states and no business will consider moving into upstate New York until it has competitive costs.
Actually, given the nature of the state's businesses, it seems to me that upstate should seek to match the Southern states in taxes, while New York City tries for the national average. That would preserve some inequity, but it would I think be appropriate for the two regions, which have very different needs.
If the tax burden were reasonable and basic services like schools and transit were good, I can see the City booming. It could come alive again.
Pataki has waffled of late regarding taxes which also has me wondering if he already has decided no to run in 2002. He can make tons more $$ on Wall Street without having to put up with people like Sheldon Silver nad Carl McCall.
Reality: New York STATE taxes (as a share of income) are now well below the national average, and were never that high to begin with. The scam is that the state bestows blessings on its pals, but forces local government to come up with the money. Hence, local taxes far beyond any other state, and state and local taxes combined which are second highest in the country.
The idea is to squeeze working class suburbs, New York City, and poor upstate cities. It doesn't work. State mandated spending is driving Nassau County under too. Even the Westchester County executive has said he can't keep hit tax reduction promises due to state policy.
Add in federal funding formulas and there is no way our taxes can fall to the national average without vastly inferior services (which we are getting anyway).
another way the senseless census scams and flim flams and lies and robs the people !
Federal mandates are killing us also. It was mayor Ed Koch himself who realized that all of the liberal congressional madates he voted for as a congressman were now choking his city. What goes around...
Read in the NY News that S.I. leads the city with a 60% census return rate. Hooray for us. (My guess is S.I. population at 425,000). Maybe now the city can untangle Hylan Blvd, buy more MCI coaches, add more SIR service, and build 5 more schools, hey I can dream can't I.
I was in Staten Island today, for pleasure believe it or not. Took the girls down Capadino/Hylan Blvd. for a little walk around Wolfes Pond Park, then up Richmond Avenue to the Dakota Diner for lunch. Plenty of traffic there. Cappodino was the only good part of the ride.
Now, lets say that the next Mayor were to propose extending Capodino Blvd down to Great Kills Park and up to a connection with Hylan; building a connection from Richmond Avenue right into 440 to Bayonne on one end and hooking it direct to Richmond Parkway on the other, twinning the Goethals Bridge and ten laneing the Staten Island Expressway.
Would gain, or lose, votes on Staten Island?
My guess is lose. The NIMBY nuts are so out of control over there, the way to win is to promise to do absolutely nothing.
Nimbyism isn't even the big issue with a Capodanno extension. Any extension would have to go through federal land, and the Dept. Of Interior has said NO to that proposal many times. The only chance for it to occur would be if Sen. Schumer and Rep. Fossella put the full court press on Interior. Schumer has been oddly receptive to S.I. transit concerns, particularly the one-way VZ toll which he supports. I say oddly because opposing Staten Islanders can only help him with his leftish Brooklyn-Manhattan political base.
Capodanno to Great Kills and possibly building out the SIE to 8 lanes (don't think you can fit 5+5) would be winners. The other issues would drag on forever except for the twinning of the Goethals and Outerbridge which I now think are possible because the PANYNJ is serious about it.
(On your next S.I. trip check out Historic Richmondtown - it's at Richmond Road & St. Patricks Place - parking on Clarke Ave.)
[Nimbyism isn't even the big issue with a Capodanno extension. Any extension would have to go through federal land, and the Dept. Of Interior has said NO to that proposal many times. The only chance for it to occur would be if Sen. Schumer and Rep. Fossella put the full court press on Interior.]
What would a Capodanno extension accomplish? Realistically, it could only go as far as Great Kills, and I don't see how that would do all that much to ease congestion on Hylan Boulevard.
The Capodanno Blvd. extension would hook up with Hylan Blvd at about Buffalo Street. It would alleviate congestion on Hylan from the SIE to the Great Kills area.
Hylan Blvd is heavily commercial, with local traffic tying it up, for much of its length, while Cappodino is an easy ride. South of Great Kills, Hylan is wider and less congested. Going to Great Kills would bypass major shopping areas. As it is, it's like traveling for miles on Hempstead Turnpike.
Hey Dan: Though I love my California, when it comes to taxes this is not a paradise by any means. Man did I get killed on my state taxes this year. Besides withholding, I had to cough up an extra $2,100 two weeks ago. And people in this country say we don't need a tax cut. Brother I can use one. I guess New Yorkers are up in arms over high taxes, too. It seems that most people who represent us get amnesia very quickly when they get into government. They seem to forget just what a heavy tax burden the people are under. One wonders if things will ever change for the better.
you could move to nevada ..!! ( almost tax free and a libreratarian type state- etc .) ...........
and did you check out how the IRS targets poor working folks first ?? ( a news item )......
another reason not to participate in the senseless census because the census does share
all of thier information with other government agencies and the........IRS .!!
Hey Big Salaam: Let me tell you something. There's total solidarity when the word taxes is mentioned between poor and middle class. They really stick it to us, and the very fact that I would have to leave a place I love for a place I don't----just to escape extra taxes. makes me even madder. I have to give my wife up front money every month which he buries in our checking account so I can enough when April comes around. It's getting a little old
I do not disagree with 90 % of what you said ...! .. On the national news it has been stated how cowardly the
IRS has become even more vicious and meaner recently ........... The IRS is no dammed good at all !!.........
Like targeting the lowest income earners who are the least able to defend themselves against a big out of control
IRS who preys on the most hapless helpless and defenseless of the american population the working poor etc.... !
Escape all the taxes that you can........... The IRS is a bitch man !!........and I aint got no good feelings for them
either !! Actually there should be a Nationwide all at once tax revolt .........but everybody has to do it at once !!
Also i conclude that the IRS gets information from the CENSUS and every other agency of the government !!
( You are preeching to the converted here ) ..!!!!
[Hey Dan: Though I love my California, when it comes to taxes this is not a paradise by any means. Man did I get killed on my state taxes this year. Besides withholding, I had to cough up an extra $2,100 two weeks ago. And people in this country say we don't need a tax cut. Brother I can use one. I guess New Yorkers are up in arms over high taxes, too. It seems that most people who represent us get amnesia very quickly when they get into government. They seem to forget just what a heavy tax burden the people are under. One wonders if things will ever change for the better.]
Part of the problem is that people elect their representatives on the basis of pork--nobody wants to lose their useless defense plant.
[Reality: New York STATE taxes (as a share of income) are now well below the national average, and were never that high to begin with.]
Income taxes, income and sales taxes, or all taxes?
[Reality: New York STATE taxes (as a share of income) are now well below the national average, and were never that high to begin with.]
Income taxes, income and sales taxes, or all taxes?)
Total taxes, total income. Wouldn't measure it any other way. All the tax burden is local, but mandated in Albany.
[Reality: New York STATE taxes (as a share of income) are now well below the national average, and were never that high to begin with.]
He seemed interested in the vice presidency, but that's apparently been ruled out. I can't imagine that he would have been chosen anyway.
[Liberals and conservatives in New York agree on a couple of things -- screw the future, and the education of low and moderate income children. When they do their deal, that's whose head the hatchet gets buried on.
If you care about transportation investment, education in NYC, or debt there is no difference between Pataki and Cuomo, Giliani and Dinkins. Koch was a little better, but not much. Lindsay and Rockefeller? Forgetaboutit!
The word I use is feudalism. Under socialism, you get what you need, at least in theory. Under capitalism, you get what you deserve, at least in theory. But here in NYC and State there are huge numbers of people who have grabbed onto unearned privilege, and get to keep it no matter what.
Liberalism? We are number two in inequitable school funding in the U.S. Conservatism? Not when new businesses get screwed. It's feudalism.]
While I think more highly of Giuliani than you do--it seems to me that for the most part he's done what he could to cut pork, but there are limits to his power--overall I think you've hit the nail on the head. Upstate or downstate, the primary conflict between the Republican and Democratic parties in New York State is over who gets the pork. If anybody at the top level of New York State's government is fighting for subway riders, schoolchildren, and overtaxed citizens, I'm not aware of it. Even the public interest groups in this state rob it, demanding luxury housing for drug addicts or insanely expensive and inadequate transportation for the handicapped.
[Here we go bashing liberals again. Liberals don't have a monopoly on bad economics. Look to Mr. Reagan -- our first brain-dead President -- and his "trickle-down" theory of economics that didn't work (not to mention his promise of cutting the deficit, yet that was lip-service, too). That's not to say having a Cuomo at the helm is a good thing either!
I have problems with much of liberal-thinking (throwing money at every social problem) but also have problems also with conservative-thinking (back big-business at the expense of the working-class.
I prefer Progressives who try and get at the root of systematic problems instead of knee-jerking to the left or right of every issue.]
Right on!
>>The most disturbing thing about many NYC liberals is that they almost seem to miss the days of high
crime and disorder. To them this is as bad as it gets.<<<
The unspoken line of many NYC liberals during the bad old days (pre Bratton) was that yes, we have high crime but that we somehow deserve it, because we are not providing enough legitimate opportunity. It took the election of Giuliani and the appointment of Bratton to turn things around. Even though crime started to drop during the Do-Nothing Dave administration, who believes it would have dropped to the level it attained if DD had been re-elected?
Unfortunately Giuliani is on the road to blowing his legacy, not to mention his senate seat, because he doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut after a police shooting, when his candor is not welcome among many of the people he would like to vote for him and a press ever willing to let Al and Hill prattle on.
www.forgotten-ny.com
your mayor is like most standing by a police and injustice system no matter how wrong (s)
it is !!........ What legacy does rudy G leave ??........ unarmed black men murdered by police !
( thats supposed to be crime reduction ).............at least the transit police left me alone when i was shooting vidieo !
I will give them a thank you for that !!..............
!!!!!......you're........!!!!!!!welcome.........
oh............. you work for rudy ""G""?............!!!
[Unfortunately Giuliani is on the road to blowing his legacy, not to mention his senate seat, because he doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut after a police shooting, when his candor is not welcome among many of the people he would like to vote for him and a press ever willing to let Al and Hill prattle on.]
It seems we're screwing Giuliani for his best quality, his candor. The Republicans screwed him because he publicly opposed that takeover of the state party by Al D'Amato. Now everyone else is screwing him because he has the temerity to suggest that maybe not every unarmed black man who gets shot by mistake was a well-behaved saint. I think Giuliani's record on civil rights is his weak point, but he's being skewered for the wrong reasons.
There's a new book out called "The Sayings of Generalissimo Giuliani." NY1, no friend of the mayor's, had the author on for a 15 minute segment on its Inside City Hall program on Thursday.
Thing is, I found myself agreeing with the supposed rantings, which had the author cringing in horror when he recounted them on the show. Could be I'm outta step with the zeitgeist.
I'd do things differently than the mayor, though I agree with him most of the time on principle.
--So the Brooklyn Museum wants to attack the Catholic Church by showing a work that smears cow dung on a picture of the Virgin Mary? Instead of pulling the funding, which in this town is a losing battle, I use the very First Amendment that allows the artist to pull this sort of thing by calling it garbage and challenging the artist to defend his piece.
--Instead of releasing the meager police record of yet another innocent individual killed by the cops, especially in a supercharged anti-police atmosphere, I back off. I lay low. I let it smooth itself out.
The way he's going, the mayor faces a bitter lame duck year with the Grammy Award-Winning Wellesley-Grad, Greatest Woman Since Eleanor Roosevelt rubbing his face in it with her pals Mark Green, Sharpton, Jose Serrano, Bebe Neuwirth and the staff of NY1 as they gleefully turn the clock back to the Dinkins era.
I can't imagine a critical book on Sharpton's rantings getting publsihed and the author given a segment on NY1, but that's the cross a successful Republican candidate has to bear with him in New York City.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Talk about bad timing for the mayor, it now turns out that his wife Donna Hanover is going to be appearing in an off-Broadway play (I refuse to dignify it by saying its name) that has to be the most absurd, idiotic thing in today's culture (with the _possible_ exception of the "Thong Song"). She should have stuck with _In Food Today_.
Actually, I can't fault Donna Hanover for that. Some of the critics have had good words for the play, and a controversial play might make a good item on her resume. She can't do Food Network and Early Edition or whatever it is forever....
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Actually, I can't fault Donna Hanover for that. Some of the critics have had good words for the play, and a controversial play might make a good item on her resume. She can't do Food Network and Early Edition or whatever it is forever....]
I suppose it could be a needed career boost. It's not as if 50+ actresses have their pick of roles anymore. But I still think the whole idea of the play is utterly preposterous.
[There's a new book out called "The Sayings of Generalissimo Giuliani." NY1, no friend of the mayor's, had the author on for a 15 minute segment on its Inside City Hall program on Thursday.
Thing is, I found myself agreeing with the supposed rantings, which had the author cringing in horror when he recounted them on the show. Could be I'm outta step with the zeitgeist.
I'd do things differently than the mayor, though I agree with him most of the time on principle.
--So the Brooklyn Museum wants to attack the Catholic Church by showing a work that smears cow dung on a picture of the Virgin Mary? Instead of pulling the funding, which in this town is a losing battle, I use the very First Amendment that allows the artist to pull this sort of thing by calling it garbage and challenging the artist to defend his piece.
--Instead of releasing the meager police record of yet another innocent individual killed by the cops, especially in a supercharged anti-police atmosphere, I back off. I lay low. I let it smooth itself out.
The way he's going, the mayor faces a bitter lame duck year with the Grammy Award-Winning Wellesley-Grad, Greatest Woman Since Eleanor Roosevelt rubbing his face in it with her pals Mark Green, Sharpton, Jose Serrano, Bebe Neuwirth and the staff of NY1 as they gleefully turn the clock back to the Dinkins era.
I can't imagine a critical book on Sharpton's rantings getting publsihed and the author given a segment on NY1, but that's the cross a successful Republican candidate has to bear with him in New York City.]
The thing that gets me about this is that people are seemingly willing to overlook all the good he's done over a couple of gaffes. That's the sort of behavior I've come to expect from partisans of either stripe, but in this case the general public seems to be joining in.
Most of those people were never bothered by the really bad times during the Dinkins years. They don't mingle with the people, they certainly don't ride the subway, so changing from Guiliani to Mark Green (who will be eaten alive by all the Democratic speical interest groups) as mayor would really have little or no effect on them. And if the people do start complaining about the quality of life going down, well, it's Pataki's fault in Albany or it's Bush's fault in Washington. Not ours. Not now. Not ever.
[Most of those people were never bothered by the really bad times during the Dinkins years. They don't mingle with the people, they certainly don't ride the subway, so changing from Guiliani to Mark Green (who will be eaten alive by all the Democratic speical interest groups) as mayor would really have little or no effect on them. And if the people do start complaining about the quality of life going down, well, it's Pataki's fault in Albany or it's Bush's fault in Washington. Not ours. Not now. Not ever.]
Pataki does have something to do with it. At the time of the fiscal crisis, it could fairly be argued that the City was screwing itself. Now that even teachers and cops earn less than their equivalents in surrounding communities, the blame shifts to Albany and to a lesser extent the Feds. City residents get screwed with higher taxes and lower services.
I don't know how far back your memory runs, Larry, but you need to appreciate what a deep whole the City is coming out of.
On the transit system, it's finally getting to something like a decent state of repair after a solid 30 year of deferred maintenance, fiscal crisis and bad administration.
NYC's priorities also work against it. If Mark Green becomes Mayor, look for things to start to backslide again.
I don't know how far back your memory runs, Larry, but you need to appreciate what a deep hole the City is coming out of.
On the transit system, it's finally getting to something like a decent state of repair after a solid 30 year of deferred maintenance, fiscal crisis and bad administration.
NYC's priorities also work against it. If Mark Green becomes Mayor, look for things to start to backslide again.
I think New Yorkers accept too much. We need a zero tolerance for the quality of public services and the tax rate, just as we have zero tolerance for the schools. I am not prepared to accept that we deserve less, despite paying more. On what basis?
same problem (s) all across most of the country not just nyc !!
you vote then get betrayed then the film flam senseless census form arrives !!
then the ten year wait until the next senseless form arrives again with another promise !!
reminds me of the old peanuts cartoon with charlie brown running to kick the football
then lucy snatches the ball away !! over and over again this happens.. is this as good as it gets ??....only worse ..!!
[I think New Yorkers accept too much. We need a zero tolerance for the quality of public services and the tax rate, just as we have zero tolerance for the schools. I am not prepared to accept that we deserve less, despite paying more. On what basis?]
People just don't know what to do! It's like LIRR riders. They're among the wealthiest, most savvy group of people in the country, but if you ask them about service on the LIRR they'll shrug and say "what can you do"?
It seems to me that one of the main problems is that the City's fate isn't really in control of the Mayor, the person we can hold responsible and elect or not. The Governor has little incentive to build a second avenue subway or improve NYC schools, because that's not where the vote is. But if school funding and transit were returned to the mayor, he could be held responsible by the electorate.
I think New Yorkers accept too much. We need a zero tolerance for a bad deal on the quality of schools and the tax rate. I am not prepared to accept that we deserve less, despite paying more. On what basis?
Now there's a pathetic scenario---Mark Green for mayor. I can just see it, Hillary in the Senate and Mark at Gracey Mansion. The worst of everything, and New York going backwards again. Pretty sad thought, don't you think? Oh well, I'm 3,000 miles away so it isn't going to effect me in the least, but if I was a New Yorker I'd sure as hell be worried. Neither one of those two boobs will do much for the subway system or for the pride of New York City. Make book on it.
[For those of you who never heard of me before I went on-line, perhaps you wonder why I am increasingly upset. I know that this is about as good as the economy gets, and nothing -- boom or bust -- goes on forever. And if this is as good as it gets, it stinks. The transit system is going deeper into hock, with no big improvments realistically on the horizon. How come everyplace else can make
improvments and NYC can't? The debt is rising, the schools are declining, taxes are still high, and job growth in Brooklyn is still weak.]
Things surely aren't as dire as they may seem to you. It's easy to look at the city's bumbling incompetence when it comes to public works and other improvements and assume that everything in the city's the same way. In fact, the private sector in NYC has finally gotten out of the doldrums and is creating jobs at a brisk pace. We're also seeing private buildings going up around the city - yes, most of them receive tax breaks, a policy I deplore, but that's an unavoidable fact of life these days. You might say that the private sector is the city's main engine of growth, not government. And that's not such a bad thing at all.
Regarding transit, we should not forget that there are major improvements in progress even though subway construction has largely ended. MVM's are becoming commonplace, new signalling is in the offing, and most of all, many new cars will be entering service before long. Even system expansion is not wholly dead in the NYC area, as Airtrain and the HBLR show.
Good points, Peter. Everything isn't gloom n' doom in Transit. Just that many projects have either ended or are moving at a snail's pace (nothing unusual there).
Also, some projects that are coming up involve demolition work -- which to railfans IS a gloomy subject for sure -- like the impending Atlantic Avenue/Broadway/East New York structure removal program. This is going to happen between now and 2002.
Hopefully we railfans will have ample time to photograph the remaining structure before D-Day (There is one planned trip this May -- watch for details in Upcoming Events section).
Doug aka BMTman
The point isn't that things are bad. It is that they aren't as good as in other places, and may be worse rather than better in 2004 as a result of decisions made today.
The most incompetent thing the city is doing is being responsible and competent. Come the recession, the state will decide it isn't so bad off, and target it for budget cuts. Other parts of the state which have irresponsibly kept taxes low and spent more will be spared.
[The most incompetent thing the city is doing is being responsible and competent. Come the recession, the state will decide it isn't so bad off, and target it for budget cuts. Other parts of the state which have irresponsibly kept taxes low and spent more will be spared.]
Precisely where are these "other parts of the state?" Surely not the suburbs, with their crushingly high property taxes.
(Precisely where are these "other parts of the state?" Surely not the suburbs, with their crushingly high property taxes).
The state is bankrupting all of its localities. Still, suburban property taxes are lower than NYC's property taxes plus income tax -- see the study by the City's Independent Budget Office. They did the analysis the right way, unlike many of the city's conservative and liberal critics. NYC taxes, we're number one! NYC school spending, we're the lowest in New York State! Not the sort of thing you put in the economic development literature.
And you wonder why people move to the suburbs. For any NYC taxpayer that has a large capital gain the additional NYS + NYC tax bite is eye opening. And we are talking about large numbers of people now who are finally realizing how much they could save by moving to NJ, CT or even PA.
But after all, to the typical NYC politician (democrats), these are the hated 'rich' people so it's o.k. to punish them for making succesful investments and then equally ok. to criticize them for 'abandoning' this wonderful place for the suburbs.
The economic bubble will more likely slowly deflate rather than burst, then what???
participating in the senseless census 2000 1990 1980 1970............. is not going to help anybody !
[And you wonder why people move to the suburbs. For any NYC taxpayer that has a large capital gain the additional NYS + NYC tax bite is eye opening. And we are talking about large numbers of people now who are finally realizing how much they could save by moving to NJ, CT or even PA.
But after all, to the typical NYC politician (democrats), these are the hated 'rich' people so it's o.k. to punish them for making succesful investments and then equally ok. to criticize them for 'abandoning' this wonderful place for the suburbs.
The economic bubble will more likely slowly deflate rather than burst, then what???]
The State's Republicans are no better. For that matter, neither are the City's. Giuliani has been wonderful, but it was John Lindsay and nelson Rockefeller, both Republicans, who laid the groundwork for the City's bankruptcy and the ridiculous taxes we pay today. Governor Pataki hasn't provided the sort of vigorous leadership we need; he seems more intent on taking money from the City to provide pork for his suburban and rural allies than pushing for an end to government bloat. Republican and Democratic state legislators strive to outdo one another in vileness--the only true conflict among them is how they divvy up the "campaign contributions" and patronage. And the Republic leadership of suburban counties has left them teetering on the edge of bankruptcy despite their enormous wealth.
[The point isn't that things are bad. It is that they aren't as good as in other places, and may be worse rather than better in 2004 as a result of decisions made today.
The most incompetent thing the city is doing is being responsible and competent. Come the recession, the state will decide it isn't so bad off, and target it for budget cuts. Other parts of the state which have irresponsibly kept taxes low and spent more will be spared.]
I agree with your analysis. We're in a boom now, and things are somewhat comfortable, but these things are relative--the City is limping compared to most of the country and upstate is a disaster, meaning that the next recession will throw us for a loop. And the incredibly myopic reaction of state government is to effectively shift more burdens onto the City, which is the state's cash cow right now. We desperately need tax cuts and service reallocations to become competitive again. In the short term, that will be painful; in the long term, the benefits to the local economy will far outweigh the liabilities.
Even if we do things right, we'll still be saddled with an outlandish state debt, and we don't seem to be making anything but symbolic moves in that direction (e.g., the Governor's five year plan to eliminate the power surcharge). There's no way a state can prosper through government services! It has to attract jobs.
then what goo was the 2000 census-.......... to anyone ?
then what god was the 2000 census-.......... to anyone ?
then what good was the 2000 census-.......... to anyone ?
I knew you'd finally get it right!!!
thank you !! ............... i will either have to change my reading glasses or enlarge the dpi on the screen !!
otherwise i will have to use capital lettters !!
Actually, the one thing we have gotten out of this expansion is tax cuts. The average state and local tax burden is 11.5 percent of personal income, 7.0 percent state and 4.5 percent local. In NYC, the burden was 7.0 percent state and 9.5 percent local, 16.5 percent. Now it is 6.4 percent state (and going down), and 7.5 percent local, 14 percent. That's still higher than average, due to high Medicaid spending, and high education spending OUTSIDE NYC.
The problem is, in the city the higher taxes buys nothing but higher medicaid, higher debt service, higher pensions, higher police spending -- and a lower share of aid from the federal and state governments for the taxes we pay. Everything else is underfunded, education and infrastructure especially so. Even the police have relatively low pay per cop. WHY is Giuliani increasing the number of officers AGAIN instead of using the money to increase pay?
[The problem is, in the city the higher taxes buys nothing but higher medicaid, higher debt service, higher pensions, higher police
spending -- and a lower share of aid from the federal and state governments for the taxes we pay. Everything else is underfunded, education and infrastructure especially so. Even the police have relatively low pay per cop. WHY is Giuliani increasing the number of officers AGAIN instead of using the money to increase pay?]
Politicians who hire more police officers look like they're taking strong stands against crime. Politicians who arrange for higher pay for existing police forces look like they're squandering taxpayer money.
And that's the reason alot of rank-and-file cops are pissed with Rudy G. Their productivity is WAY UP but Rudy is being a tight-wad for not giving them a descent -- and well deserved -- increase.
Doug aka BMTman
[And that's the reason alot of rank-and-file cops are pissed with Rudy G. Their productivity is WAY UP but Rudy is being a tight-wad for not giving them a descent -- and well deserved -- increase.
Doug aka BMTman]
But where's the money going to come from? We need to reduce taxes, and our desperate need right now is for teachers, subways, and school construction.
>>>And that's the reason alot of rank-and-file cops are pissed with Rudy G. Their productivity is WAY UP but
Rudy is being a tight-wad for not giving them a descent -- and well deserved -- increase.<<<
Quite true. And that's why RG will have to struggle to receive the support of one of the few unions that ought to be supporting him in his race against Her Highness. The man has vision, but many blind spots.
[Quite true. And that's why RG will have to struggle to receive the support of one of the few unions that ought to be supporting him in his race against Her Highness. The man has vision, but many blind spots.]
Is it a blind spot, or integrity? The sort of integrity that says you don't buy off a union by giving them a raise that the City can't afford? The PBA and the other unions should be working against state financing formulas that keep the City broke, not the City itself.
In any case, those productivity improvements were at the expense of featherbedding. It's not entirely obvious to me that union members should benefit from the repeal of ridiculous work rules, though I'd find it a lot easier to support a raise for union members if most of the featherbedding were gone.
[Politicians who hire more police officers look like they're taking strong stands against crime. Politicians who arrange for higher pay for existing police forces look like they're squandering taxpayer money.]
Seems to me it's a market decision. As long as we can hire sufficient cops of a reasonable quality, I don't think there's any reason we should increase their pay. We're beginning to have some competitive problems in that regard--I read an article on it not long ago--but we're just beginning. Teacher pay is I think more of a problem right now.
Also, I'd be much more willing to advocate higher pay for cops if we didn't have two man patrols everywhere, sick days for blood donations, and "retirement" (read--get a new job and collect money from the City) at "half pay" (actually more like full pay unless they've changed the overtime scam) after twenty years.
[Seems to me it's a market decision. As long as we can hire sufficient cops of a reasonable quality, I don't think there's any reason we should increase their pay. We're beginning to have some competitive problems in that regard--I read an article on it not long ago--but we're just beginning.]
It's hard to say whether there actually are any competitive problems. There is a huge pool of people who have passed the initial qualifying tests to become police officers - supposedly, the numbers are in the tens of thousands. What complicates matters is the fact that this pool was created over a period of several years. It's fairly certain that many of the people in the pool are no longer interested in police jobs, as they're working elsewhere by now (some of them, undoubtedly, with other police departments) or have moved away. But no one knows just how many of the candidates are no longer available.
Misconceptions: There is no time off for blood donations. I have 18 yrs on the job and they stopped it before I even came on.Two man patrols are a very big safety issue and a big morale issue. Ever notice that in Nassau and Suffolk you have twice as many radio cars at each call. They still require the same amount of men at jobs so there are double the cars there. Also, have you ever noticed in Nassau and Suffolk 2 or more cars parked side by side in a parking lot with the cops B.S.ing? Thats because being alone in a car for a whole tour is BORING so they park and talk. In the NYPD the cars are always moving. What overtime scam? First of all all cops are in tier 3 now which figures pensions on your last 3 years income, not your last years. Since Rudy became mayor overtime is at a bare minimum and the job fights you every step you take to earn overtime.
[Two man patrols are a very big safety issue and a big morale issue. Ever notice that in Nassau and Suffolk you have twice as many radio cars at each call. They still require the same amount of men at jobs so there are double the cars there. Also, have you ever noticed in Nassau and Suffolk 2 or more cars parked side by side in a parking lot with the cops B.S.ing? Thats because being alone in a car for a whole tour is BORING so they park and talk. In the NYPD the cars are always moving.]
But what about the calls (and I'll bet they're in the majority) that require only a single officer to handle?
Since probably the majority of jobs turn out to be completely different than what the original caller to 911 stated there is no way to know if the job calls for 1 or 2 officers.
[Misconceptions:
There is no time off for blood donations. I have 18 yrs on the job and they stopped it before I even came on.
Two man patrols are a very big safety issue and a big morale issue. Ever notice that in Nassau and Suffolk you have twice as many radio cars at each call. They still require the same amount of men at jobs so there are double the cars there. Also, have you ever noticed in Nassau and Suffolk 2 or more cars parked side by side in a parking lot with the cops B.S.ing? Thats because being alone in a car for a whole tour is BORING so they park and talk. In the NYPD the cars are always moving.
What overtime scam? First of all all cops are in tier 3 now which figures pensions on your last 3 years income, not your last years. Since Rudy became mayor overtime is at a bare minimum and the job fights you every step you take to earn overtime.]
I stand corrected on issue one. Issue two strikes doesn't convince me--I'm all in favor of two man patrols in particularly dangerous areas, but overall, I don't see it as necessary. Boredom, as opposed to safety, doesn't strike me as a real issue, given that the cure doubles the cost of the force! Issue 3: again, I wasn't aware that it now takes 3 years to determine income, but the pension still should be based on base pay and start at age 65.
Out of curiosity, if you had a choice between a two man patrol at your current salary and a one man patrol at *twice* it, which would you choose?
[re whether NYPD officers deserve a raise]
Different things go into a "raise" and hence it's not easy to determine when raises are deserved and when they're not. At the most basic level, raises that enable workers to keep pace with the cost of living are the most justifiable, whether you're talking about public- or private-sector employees. I'd say that these sort of raises are almost an entitlement, except that's a dangerous term these days. And it's more or less expected that workers who've done a really good job should get some sort of monetary recognition, either in the form of a raise or (preferably) a one-time bonus. Yet note that these performance rewards are more appropriate for the private as opposed to public sector. It's much easier to quantify the effects of good performance when you're dealing with private business.
Where things get fuzzy is with regard to "competitive" raises. These happen when the workers for Employer A believe they deserve raises because their counterparts at Employer B get more money for comparable work. We've already heard how NYPD officers say they should get raises because some suburban police departments pay more. Well, while it's hardly my intent to offend anyone, I simply don't see that Employer B's higher pay scales _automatically_ entitles Employer A's workers to more money. As long as lower-paying Employer A is able to hire enough qualified workers, and is not losing too many people to Employer B, then there's no economic reason why it should offer competitive raises ... indeed, its shareholders would be likely to object.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no evidence that the NYPD is having trouble attracting enough qualified recruits. My guess is that being a police officer is an inherently attractive thing to many people, so there'll never be a shortage of would-be officers. It's the same reason why airlines never have any difficulty hiring enough flight attendants and why auditions for Broadway shows are mob scenes. Defections to other police departments probably aren't much of a problem due to the pension and seniority system. My point, therefore, is that the NYPD is under no compelling need to offer above-inflation raises, unless I'm missing something.
Yes, there's transit relevance too. As has been noted here, the last couple of competitive examinations for conductors and T/O's have attracted enormous numbers of candidates. Even if only a small percentage meet the Transit Authority's standards, it's safe to say that hiring won't be a problem for the foreseeable future.
["At the most basic level, raises that enable workers to keep pace with the cost of living are the most justifiable....these sort of raises are almost an entitlement..."]
Don't let Rudy hear you say that. He begrudges everybody, especially teachers, the ability to even keep pace with inflation.
[Don't let Rudy hear you say that. He begrudges everybody, especially teachers, the ability to even keep pace with inflation.]
Where's the money going to come from? I keep hearing this sort of thing, but nobody ever explains how with budget projections showing massive deficits down the road we're supposed to fund them.
Two ideas: the unions could end featherbedding; the unions could seriously lobby Albany for a fair shake for the City. If we had either, we could pay union members what their suburban counterparts are getting.
[Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no evidence that the NYPD is having trouble attracting enough qualified recruits. My guess is that being a police officer is an inherently attractive thing to many people, so there'll never be a shortage of would-be officers. It's the same reason why airlines never have any difficulty hiring enough flight attendants and why auditions for Broadway shows are mob scenes. Defections to other police departments probably aren't much of a problem due to the pension and seniority system. My point, therefore, is that the NYPD is under no compelling need to offer above-inflation raises, unless I'm missing something.
Yes, there's transit relevance too. As has been noted here, the last couple of competitive examinations for conductors and T/O's have attracted enormous numbers of candidates. Even if only a small percentage meet the Transit Authority's standards, it's safe to say that hiring won't be a problem for the foreseeable future.]
What tends to get lost in the shuffle is that these jobs are still incredible compared to what comparably skilled people can hope to get in private industry at this point. The opposite is true of teaching; we can't attract good people to the profession, because it's an underpaid job with low status and mediocre working conditions. Cf. Europe, where a high school teacher, though not well paid, is accorded the respect we would give a college professor.
I'm really bothered by the fear that we've created a union aristocracy of sorts in NYC, with relatively few jobs for a well-paid remnant of a time when working people had better incomes, and hundreds of thousands unemployed or in minimum wage jobs. On one hand, a reduction in benefits is a step backwards socially, on the other hand, I don't think the region can go it alone in the face of economic pressures that have to be handled by the nation as a whole or even larger entities. That's the main reason I'm so bothered by the outrageous featherbedding in the City's unions. I'd like to see high wages and benefits for the greatest number. But when a construction company has to hire teamsters to do nothing, they aren't just wasting the builder's money--they're killing jobs for people with families to feed.
Believe or not, Josh is right on the money. Social progress depends on a good day's pay for a good day's work. Unions should function, as they have in the past, to broaden the benefits of prosperity, not to create pockets of privlege.
[Actually, the one thing we have gotten out of this expansion is tax cuts. The average state and local tax burden is 11.5 percent of personal income, 7.0 percent state and 4.5 percent local. In NYC, the burden was 7.0 percent state and 9.5 percent local, 16.5 percent. Now it is 6.4 percent state (and going down), and 7.5 percent local, 14 percent. That's still higher than average, due to high Medicaid spending, and high education spending OUTSIDE NYC.
The problem is, in the city the higher taxes buys nothing but higher medicaid, higher debt service, higher pensions, higher police spending -- and a lower share of aid from the federal and state governments for the taxes we pay. Everything else is underfunded, education and infrastructure especially so. Even the police have relatively low pay per cop. WHY is Giuliani increasing the number of officers AGAIN instead of using the money to increase pay?]
Yes, we've gotten tax cuts, but they're hardly sufficient to make us competitive. Businesses don't decide to locate in a fairly economical location, they decide to locate in the cheapest that fills their goals. A certain class of business finds that Manhattan fits the bill there, because they're after prestige or part of a culture like publishing or advertising. But those high taxes (and the costs of union labor) kill the othe boroughs and communities upstate.
Also, how comprehensive are those figures? They sound like the figures for personal income, but what about hidden taxes like the MTA surcharge on your phone bill and taxes that affect companies? The City and State have so many weird hidden taxes like the medical insurance surcharge (choke). Pataki just announced that he's reducing one of them, the power surcharge (double choke) over a five year period. But at the same time, he's raised taxes on cigarettes to pay for health care for children, something that may be a good idea as a way of discouraging smoking but that as far as I'm concerned is inexcusable given that it funds new services without being offset by a countervailing reduction in other taxes.
[Yes, we've gotten tax cuts, but they're hardly sufficient to make us competitive. Businesses don't decide to locate in a fairly
economical location, they decide to locate in the cheapest that fills their goals. A certain class of business finds that Manhattan fits
the bill there, because they're after prestige or part of a culture like publishing or advertising. But those high taxes (and the costs of
union labor) kill the othe boroughs and communities upstate.]
Focusing too much on taxes sort of misses the point. For the most part, businesses do not concern themselves too much with relative tax burdens when making location decisions. That's because state and local taxes are a surprisingly minor expense item for most businesses. Labor costs are what really matter. Locations with low labor costs will have huge competitive advantages over higher-cost areas, so long as they have an adequate supply of the skills in demand. And that's why NYC has done fairly well in terms of job growth in recent years despite having high taxes - contrary to popular belief, labor costs aren't particularly high (with the exception of unionized industries and certain specialized fields).
My analysis is that business location decisions are almost entirely driven by race and class (for large companies) and cool vs. uncool (for new firms). They will put up with anything to be in a place that fits their desired social characteristics. That's why corporations are banging down the doors to get into Manhattan, despite the taxes, but can't even be bribed to move to Brooklyn, and why dot-coms are also desperate to stay in Manhattan but would not consider Staten Island.
NYC wages are definately low for semi-skilled labor -- large supply, low demand. But all the businesses that employ such labor would rather be in the suburbs.
Larry, it's interesting to point out that a dot.com has just invaded Harlem. Even though one might not consider the demographics up there as one to attract an Internet company, it would be MORE interesting to see if one were to pop-up in one of the outer boroughs (chances are less likely I presume).
Doug aka BMTman
[Larry, it's interesting to point out that a dot.com has just invaded Harlem. Even though one might not consider the demographics up there as one to attract an Internet company, it would be MORE interesting to see if one were to pop-up in one of the outer boroughs (chances are less likely I presume).]
Harlem is an ideal example of a place most companies won't go--not because of the workers, but because of the crime.
[Focusing too much on taxes sort of misses the point. For the most part, businesses do not concern themselves too much with relative tax burdens when making location decisions. That's because state and local taxes are a surprisingly minor expense item for most businesses. Labor costs are what really matter. Locations with low labor costs will have huge competitive advantages over higher-cost areas, so long as they have an adequate supply of the skills in demand. And that's why NYC has done fairly well in terms of job growth in recent years despite having high taxes - contrary to popular belief, labor costs aren't particularly high (with the exception of unionized industries and certain specialized fields).]
While I agree that labor costs are probably a more important element than taxes, the same costs are partly dependent on taxes. A difference of several percent in personal taxes equates to a difference of several percent in labor costs, and when business taxes and the various hidden taxes are added on the difference has to be significant to any business. Then too, the boss's taxes count, and more than a few well to do people fled the City when income taxes went up.
At the same time, as we know, the region suffers from uneven transportation, bad schools, and a shortage of middle class workers. Most of this is under the control of government; the sole exception, and it's a sad one, is unionization, and even there the government could do something by clamping down on labor racketeering and authoring right to work laws. I never thought I'd say that, but beggars can't be choosers, and New York is no longer strong enough to go it alone on major social welfare issues.
As far as I can tell, anyway. Ultimately the only things that aren't in our power are the Federal Government's subsidy of other states and Federal mandates, and since we don't have many more people in poverty than the national average it seems to me that the latter should not be insurmountable.
I finally remembered to look up the stations in a 1986 copy of Model Railroader article I have. This is to answer or at least try to answer Bill Newkirk's question from a few days ago.
The stations on the line were:
1.Broad St.,Newark
2.Ferry St.
3.East Ferry St.
4.Newark Transfer Station
5.Kearny
6.West Side Avenue, Jersey City
7.Jackson Ave.
8.Arlington Ave.
9.Pacific Ave.
10.Jersey City Terminal.
The branch joined the main line from Bayonne at Tower "C". Through service ended in 1946 when a tugboat "accidentally" hit the Hackensack River bridge. Rumor was that the tug then backed off and hit the bridge a second time.
What time does the Z stop runnning during rush hours? I was on a J around 6:30pm and made all local stops. I did not see a Manhattan bound Z at all......
BM34x
Maybe the Zs retired early to catch a few zzzzzzzzzs.
Rim shot!
Oh, POOH!
They sleep during the day at East New York Yard. On the weekends, they become "J" and sometimes "L" trains.
Wayne
OK, so they take in a few zzzzzzzzs during midday then. A siesta, if you will.:-)
04/20/2000
What if a (Z) train derails and lands on it's side? Now the train is no longer the (Z) but and (N)..........Hmmm.
Bill Newkirk
Then it would really be taking a few zzzzzzzzzs.:-)
That could theoretically happen in Crescent Street if and only if:
a) a "J" train stops just beyond the curve with its last car just on the curved section.
b) a "Z" train keys by the red signal, bumps the "J" train, and derails off the elevated structure into Fulton Street below.
Implausible but not impossible.
Wayne
No inbound Z in PM Rush. I have never been on this line at this time but I imagine that the SB end signs J.
According to my older maps, the Z only runs between 4:30 and 5:45 PM. You could also check the MTAs WWW Site and look at the J/Z schedule.
A map wouldn't say that, it would use the term RUSH HOURS which during the PM means 3:30-8:00.
It was the 1990 map, i think. It says in a box near Jamacia that the skip stop is from 4:30-5:15PM.
In the non-rush direction Z trains deadhead. It would be too difficult to change all the roll signs in all the cars to J for a reverse direction trip every time.
Ah, but there ARE OUTBOUND "Z"s in the AM rush; the last one of these is a revenue run from Broad to Eastern Parkway, just like an old #14 train, and it arrives at ENY about 9:15AM.
Wayne
I picked up the Hub Bound data from NYMTC while manning the City Planning Booth at the Amercian Planning Association meeting the other day. For those of you not familiar with the data, I though you might be interested in a summary. It measures travel to the Manhattan Central Business District (from 60th Street south, river to river) on a typical fall business day over 24 hours. The numbers are for those entering.
From the north: 1,424 subway trains carried 658,700 passengers.
The Lex Express had 273 trains and 145,200 passengers
The Lex Local had 223 trains and 135,800 passengers
The 8th Avenue express had 271 trains and 116,900 passengers
The 8th Avenue local had 205 trains and 44,000 passengers
The IRT Broadway express had 251 trains and 116,200 passengers
The IRT Broadway local had 201 trains and 100,500 passengers
Metro North carried in 92,200 passengers on 241 trains.
And 380,120 motor vehicles carried in 619,000 passengers.
From Brooklyn, 1,924 trains carried in 638,200 passengers
The 141 trains in the 14th St tunnel carried 54,600 passengers
The 211 trains on the Wille B carried 50,000.
The 240 trains in the Rutgers Tunnel carried 82,300.
The 328 trains on the Manhattan Bridge carried 117,200
The 231 trains in the Cranberry tunnel carried 107,200.
The 254 trains in the Clark St tunnel carried 65,000
The 257 trains in the Jorelemon St Tunnel carried 105,600
But the 262 trains in the Montigue Tunnel carried just 55,800.
199,538 motor vehicles carried an estimated 353,000 passengers. Most were on the free bridges, only 56,000 used the Brooklyn-Battery.
From Queens, 930 subway trains carried in 401,800 passengers.
The 227 trains in the 60th St tunnel carried 103,800.
The 333 trains in the 53rd St St tunnel carried 181,600.
The 130 trains in the 63rd St Tunnel carried 12,500
The 240 trains in the Steinway Tunnel carried 103800.
The Long Island Railroad carried in 112,000 on 211 trains.
Amtrak carried in just 1,854 on 13 trains.
131,900 motor vehicles brought in 196,000 passengers.
Far more were on the free QB bridge than the toll tunnel.
The tramway carried over 1,440.
From New Jersey,
PATH brought in 100,700 on 503 trains.
NJ transit brought in 45,000 on 104 trains.
Private ferries brought in 12,900
107,200 Motor Vehicles carried 301,700 passengers.
The Staten Island Ferry carried 30,100 passengers.
I'll comment later if others pick up the thread.
I wonder if there was a toll on every entrance to Manhattan what would the statistics be.
Arti
Any stats for SIR and NYCT and DOT express buses from SI, Bklyn, Qns, Bronx and NJ commuter buses?
(Any stats for SIR and NYCT and DOT express buses from SI, Bklyn, Qns, Bronx and NJ commuter buses)?
These are included in the people coming in by vehicle. SI express bus riders, for example, come in by vehicle from Brooklyn.
Do the figures for motor vehicles include buses?
My main comment goes to the oft-repeated claims that suburbanites are "stealing" jobs from city residents. Your figures show quite clearly that the number of people entering the Manhattan core via commuter train, PATH and NJ ferries is dwarfed by the number of people using the subway. It seems rather evident that most Manhattan jobs are held by city residents.
a little while ago i was reading through today's
posts and fell asleep at the keyboard... i had a
strange dream, which i am sure you are not
interested in hearing...
it was october 28, 2004, the day after the 100th
anniversary of opening day of the irt... to
commemorate the event, the mta announced that the
r-142a's would be ready for passenger service, 4
years ahead of the scheduled date of 2008... the
inaugural run would leave from city hall station at
7:43 am ( this is a dream, so don't bother telling
me that i have the time wrong )
i was director of communications for the mta, a job
i was offered shortly after my postings on subtalk
reached the highest levels of the mta...
i was stationed in the grand central tower with caz
dolowicz, where we were going to track the progress of the inaugural run... the entire first train was only for railfans... it was a way of rewarding them for their patience, as they waited for the 142's to go into service... it was also to reward them for their many helpful suggestions of how we could run the transit system...
i was watching the board as the train moved out of
city hall... it was moving smoothly... then all of a sudden it disappeared off the board... caz yelled
out: "it must be the ******* bulbs on the board
again"... he put on his jacket, and said that he was going to walk downtown on the roadbed and see what
was going on...
well, he never was heard from again, nor was the
train ever seen again...
the disappearance of the first r-142 in service only added to the rumors of other mishaps involving these new cars... there were serious rumors of
electrocutions, brake failures, derailments, and
most seriously, water leaks around the windows...
the media heated these concerns up, and customers
were claiming that the new cars were death traps and that they would never ride in them...
it was my job as director of communications to
convince the riding public that the last 3
derailments on october 25th, were mere statistical
flukes... there were several ideas being tossed
about:
1) anyone entering the system on a station served
solely by the r-142's would have a $50,000 life
insurance policy coded on their metrocard for that
ride
2) the center car of every new train would have a
fully staffed emergency room just in case that there was another tragedy...
3) just as a precaution, we would disable the motors on 9 cars on the 10 car trains... this would
ensure that the cars would never go faster than 4
miles per hour, which is the current maximum speed of the r-68's
4) frank correll suggested that we were caving in to mass hysteria... he felt that just because people
paid $2.00 for a ride, they had no right to think
that they were going to live forever...
frank always knew how to make me crack up, even in
the midst of the mta's worst crisis... it was at
that moment that i awoke and realized that i was
dreaming
i continued reading the messages on subtalk, and
soon decided that i was having more fun in my
dreams....
You must immediately search out the movie Moebius filmed in the Buenos Aires metro several years ago. The plot turns on dissappearing trains. (look at http://www.imdb.com/
) for info.
Stay tuned for the next chapter in the further adventures in The Subway Named Moebius.
Did anyone tell Frank to go play with his trains?
Just when I thought my bus and rail embelleshment dreams were faaaar out.
Perhaps it was me and my gang of hijackers that made the train dissapear.
Accoding to a transit police spokseman Lt.Rico Petrone"The train was belived to be flown to Cuba. Possibly with Alien Gonzales on board"
Cuba finnaly gets modern rapid transt cars!
If they dont still excecute in this state for this I will have to fry myself on the 3rd rail.
"Pity"
M1 (The M1 and only)
Did Garber tell Patrone he was a sick man?:-)
No but he told the directors of the Tokyo Metro who were visiting that Rico works for the mafia on the weekends.
M1
And Rico told Garber he was busy when in fact he was reading a newspaper.
No but he told the directors of the Tokyo Metro who were
visiting that Rico works for the mafia on the weekends.
M1
that entire consist had (4) , count them, (4) T.O. cabs with recycled parts from Roswell N.M. , There you have it sports fans out there in T.V. land. I beleive the set is hovering over the Iberian peninsular, and the passengers have been transmuted in a peasant doppelganger.
FEAR NOT heypaul and BMTman are feverishly working on a plan to rescue and/or join them in the 13th century!
avid
au contraire, avid reader... heypaul and bmt man have no intention of rescuing or joining the people on board the first train... as detailed in my dream, these were all railfans, who have failed as a group to find me funny... the dream was reflective of my still undiminished hostilities... however, caz dolowicz was returned safely, when it was realized that he truly loved transit... caz,frank, mrs. jenkins and me have a regular gin rummy game every friday night...
Then they must languish in the 13th century , in their peasant persona, waiting to be released by "THE BELL RINGER"
avid
what's the bell ringer ?
You had to evoke the seven century curse by uttering the "Who or What or where is 'THE BELL RINGER'!
ALL SERIOUSNESS ASIDE from this point on!
and so it came to pass , in the dawn of the new millenium, the entire consist of the first run of the fabled R142s vanished with crew and rainfan adherants.For a brief, very brief time BMT and heypaul were beside themselves with mild hysteria. Who could they confide in, trust with their darkest secrets?
After compileing a list of about a hundred and fifty seven names they began to calm down. They calmed down so much they both forgot about lunch!
Soon they found a Deli that served Pizza ,twinkies and Kosher half sour pickles and satisfied that growling noise coming from the pit of their stoamachs.They were fired up , alert , fearless and ready to seek out their commrades inspite of sound advice against such a thing.
They headed to "The Motormans Cab" . Each one could fell the adreninalin pumping, the butterflies in the stomach, perperation, rapis breathing, it was all starting . They quickly went thru the preflight list, and checked off each item. The Cab was shaking, a steady vibration could be heard, its pitch began to rise , higher, higher, the rel glass in the windows was ratteling, the lights slowly dimmed , once, then again, then came on very bright , brighter soon the arc of the third rail flashed, followed by a deafening boom.
BMT and heypaul were hurled thru space and time . In an instant the found themselvess in the cathedral of Santa Magnolia Castrada Chasten de La Gludias Maximus Muander.
to be continued
avid
I can't wait for the good part.:-)
they both staggered out of what they thought was a closet of some sort. Each one thought it was strange , a closet, but no hangers or clothing. Suddenly it hit them ! They had been in the confessional.
The place where sinners would go to confess their crimes against the almighty and man , and gain forgiveness!
As the two crime time travelars gazed at each other they took in a vision of a familar stranger. BMT had been transformed into the Monseigneor Don Jaun Benito Gaspar, and heypaul now assumed the identity of his faithful son,conpanion and all around handy man for the Cathedral of Santa Magnolia Castrada Chasten de La Gludias Maximus Maunder. His name was Paolo.
Theirs was a strange story. Many years ago , when the Monseigneor was visiting his friend and spirtual advisor The Arch Bishop Luis Despensato, he confided that he had doubts!. His friend demanded to what doubts he had. So they went into the confessional , the Monseigneor said that he sometimes wondered if he took the correct path in life, that of a religious role , and denied himself a family.
His friend and advisor told him such doubts were normal for one such as he, but he could have both! Well almost both.
"How can this be?" asked the monseingneor.
"IT is easy for men such as us." said his friend. My sister, in real life is The Mother Superior at the orphanage of "Little Angles of the Wind Blow Blossoms" in Granada. Her Name is St Mary, Agony of the Olive Press.
You my fine friend can be a single parent, you can adopt, YOU will adopt! "I'll send Mary agony a letter explaining all. You will go and select a family, or sons or daughters , But you must use your own funds to support this family. NO CHURCH FUNDS!
This would not be a problem for the Monseigneor, he was the third son of a wealthy silk importer.His oldest brother was in the family business with his father, the second son was in the army, in the service of the KING. Don Jaun , the third son , took Holy Orders.
After this most revealing meeting with the Archbishop, the Monseigneor traveled to Granada, he was excited and troubled , what should he do now? How should he choose, who should he choose. He always was happy to see the peasant familes in church, the children, little boys and girls. Now he was to have his own! What must he do? He needed help!
He need not have feared. When he arrived at the orphanage of The Little Angles of the Wind Blown Blossoms , St. Mary Agony of the Olive Press had arranged all for the Monseigneors inspection.
All of the children that were old enough were dressed in their best uniforms. The girls had on the white dresses, aprons , ribbons in their hair. The boys had on the blue and red uniforms ,like the KINGS soldiers.
The Monseigneor walk down a row, on each side were the children. The boys on the right, the girls on the left. As the walked ,each child
bowed or curtsied for the Monseigneor as St. Mary agony told the childs history. Some children were from the same family and wished to stay together. It was very difficult to choose. Mary agony tried to help, she was very kind, the Monseigneor could see the resemblence of her to his friend and advisor. They both had the same single eyebrow across the head and Mary agony had a mustach, not as full as The Archbishops , but one none the less.
After visiting the infants, the Monseigneor was not closer to a decision. They went out to the Varanda for a cool drink of lemonade when the Monseigneor spotted a yound lad sitting by himself on the stone wall . He was not dressed in the uniform, but was wearing every day clothes.The Monseigneor asked Mary agony about him.
She said "He was left by Gypsies many years ago, he is tall for his age, and has rounded shoulders from stuping to be with the other shorter children. When people come to adopt, he is always overlooked because he is too tall and will eat to much, or looks weak because of his shoulders.He has very poor self estime.He had not bothered to put on his uniform, he did not want to be disappointed again. His name is Paolo.
" Thats the one for me ." said the Monseignoer.
to be cont.
avid
part 3
Young Paolo and the Monseigneor gathered up Paolo's few worthless , meager belongings , put them into the torn, thread bear blanket he was left in and began the journey back to the catheral of Santa Magnolia Castrada Chasten D'La Gludias Maximus Maunder.
The journey was uneventful, each night they stayed at the local church or abby. The Monseigneor was known far and wide for his goodness and kindness. Twice during their journey they were stopped by highway men , but instead of being robbed, the bandits begged forgiveness, promised to reform, gave a donation for the poor, and begged to be blessed by the Monseigneor. This he would always do , and prayed for the souls of the highway men.
When the finally reached the end of their journey, young Paolo admired the Monseigneor and felt better about himself to choosen to be adopted by him.
Young Paolo was truly suprised when he beheld the catheral of Santa Magnolia Castrada Chasten D'La Gludias Maximus Maunder. He was only accustomed to the tiny chapel of The Little Angles of the Wind Blown Blossoms. The whole chapel could pass thru the front doors of the catheral without touching the sides.
The Monseigneor gave young Paolo a tour worthy of a visiting Cardinal. They went from top to bottom, the grand tour.
to be cont.
avid
part 4
The monseigneor took young Paolo to the crypt, here were all the previous "Monseigneors, Nobles of the province, Famous Knights and their Ladies, and a few very rich merchants that had been generous in the past to the cathederal.There were still many many empty places waiting to be filled.
They continued the tour ending in the "BELL TOWER" . Here were the smaller bells of various sizes, each had its own rope, some bells were rung by a single rope. The biggest bell had an ingenious system of pullies to make it easier for the bell ringer to ring, and when it rang, its voice carried of the tiny city, out to the outter most regions of the valley. When the bells were rung, everyone heard them!
Young Paolo was given many chores , he learned to trim the candles, when to light them or extinguish them . He carried water to the church and put holes in it , so it could be used as Holywater. He kept the cathederal swipt clean. In time as he grew older he accompinied the Monseigneor to the wine country , to taste and purchase wine for the sacraments.He liked that part.
In time the Monseigneor adopted other unwanted orphans, and all blossemed into fine young people. Now Paolo had brothers and fine "sisters" to help him. He also looked after them , because sometimes the Monseigneor was busy with church work.
One of Paolo,s favorite chores was making sure when his "sisters" would bath in the evening , they put the candles far form the white linen curtains so there would be no chance of fire. He would always check and see if he could see their shadows on the curtains. He would stay and watch all the time, to make sure they were safe.
Paolos most important chore was ringing the bells. When he was young he would only ring the small bells, the ones that were highest in the tower.Poalo grew and became stronger, the exercise of ringing the bells every morning, noon and evening, for sunday Mass, on Holy days, or when ever Proclamations from the King or Pope came.The hard work cured his stooped shoulders and put muscle on his once scrawney frame.
The Monseigneor and Paolo and his brothers and "sisters" were happy with their lives.
Things some how seemed different though , scince they tumbled out of the confessional. They looked at each other in a strange way, the looked at some , but not all, of the peasants in strange ways.IT seemed some peasants were fastenated with carts, carrages, coaches, oxcarts. They would gather and compare and argue their opinions for hours and hours. The strangest thing was none of these stupid peasants owned a cart of their own.The Monseigneor and Paolo enjoyed these gatherings and discussions and were welcomed by the peasants. They would argue color, wheel size, height, width, number of draft animals, new and old. What wonderful times were had by these poor peasants.
It happened on a dark and stormy night. There was a knock on the Rectory door. The hour was late, the Monseigneor fear the worst. One of his flock must be ill, very ill to call so late. Maybe even dying and in need of the Last Rites.He and Paolo approached the door and pulled it open. The beheld an emperious sight, they stepped back in fear, it was a messenger from the Cardinal. He had been riding day and night without letup . He reached into his pouch and removed a notice for the Monseigneor. He read it and fell to his knees. He began to weep and tremble. Paolo snatched the notice from his hands and read it. He to fell to his knees and began to weep louder that the Monseigneor. Soon the entire household was awake and weeping on their knees.
The Cardinals messenger asked if there was an answer. The Monseigneor sniveled "NO" and continued weeping.
The message said "We are sending to you a BELL RINGER, it would please us if you give him every curtesy and an audition on your beautiful bells.
Our eminance
Cardinal.
To be continued
avid
Part 5
The mood at the Cathedral Santa Magnolia Castrada Chasten D'la Gludias Maximus Maunder was solemn and forbidding.Paolos biggest, most important position at the cathedral was threatened, no , worse, it was doomed. When the cardinal sent anyone to a parish, it was as good as done!For days the young children wept, even people is the small city were sad. Many young girls were red eye and pale from weeping and lose of sleep.
One evening , a close friend , the Archbishop came for a dinner planned long ago. He was shocked to find the family he helped create so sad. The Monseigneor showed the Archbishop the letter. He said all is lost, we will lose Paolo.
"Rubbish" said the archbishop. The letter only says to give this strange bell ringer an audition.MY advice to you is give this starnger, this strange bell ring his audition, then thank him, you must be curtious, and send him away.The cardinals letter did not say you must give him the position of Chief Bell Ringer.
"But of course, you are right , as always." said the Monseigneor.
Everyones hearts lifted, smiles flood the dinner table, the cook brought a bottle of fine wine and soon laughter echoed late into the night. They had a plan.
Paolo was still not convinced.
tbc
avid
PLEASE DEPOSIT 25 CENTS FOR THE NEXT 5 MINUTES
PART 6
As time went by the small city settled down to the plane simple life all were use to.All was quite and peaceful. The wagoneers continued to meet and discuss their beloved topic. If a new coach passed thru , it was the theme of the day. Monseigneor and Paolo were frequent participants. The deversions in the little city were few. After several days the Bell Ringer was forgotten.
Then it happened, as swift as a lightning strike. The Bell Ringer had arrived. He came in the dead of night, late and during one of the frequent rain storms. He had been given directions by the Cardinal, directions straight to the Rectory.
The hour was late, all in the Monseigneors residence had retired much earlier. Paolo and the Monseigneor were still awake tasteing and selecting the sacramental wines for the next week.
The noise followed one of the many lightning strikes, after the thunder subside the sound of the masive doorknocker boomed and echoed thru the Residence. BOOM BOOM BOOM.
The icey hand of fear seized the hearts of the Monseigneor and Paolo. Both men blessed themselves and the Monseigneor muttered an incantation in Latin. Paolo made a Gypsy sign to ward off evil, but he was very careful not to let the Monseigneor see him do it.
They went to the heavey oak and wrought iron door. They both undid the many bolts and locks and drew the door open. The curved stone stair case began to fill with the rest of the household . The storm and pounding on the door having roused all the from the arms of Amorphyus.
With each lightning flash a form could be seen standing near a pathetic mule and cart. The form took a steady shape as Paolo carried a lanturn outside and closer to the strander in the night. When he was very close , were he could see very well, he staggered back and put a hand to his mouth to prevent himself from crying out.
The monseigneor rushed forward and when he gazed upon the strange he grasped the strangers arm and said " Are you all right?" "Are you hurt?"he babbled on "What happened to you?" "Who did this to you"?
Again , Paolo drew closer . He could see the cuts, the bruises, the black and blue welts, scar on top of scar. The nose was misshapened.
"Were you attached by robbers?" "Did highway men do this to you?"
"How did this happen?" shouted the Monseigneor.
"Wait, wait, please let me speak" said the stranger.
One of Paolos sister said "Come inside, don"t stand outin the rain!"
She told Paolo to take his mule and cart to the stable and get the animal settled in for the night.
When Paolo returned to the residence he found everyone in the kitchen as the stranger was given a bowl of stew made from wild fowl and local vegetables.He did not seem starved.
He began his story.......
to be continued
avid
Part 7
My name is Estaban Via Ocho.The bell ringer began his tale , tall but true !
"My face is as you see because of my profession, my craft. I am an artist!" he told the family. "All the men in my family look a like. We are all scared, bruised and black and blue." He told them all the men in his family were BELL RINGERS! " For almost countless generations the men in our family have rung bells with our heads. We ring the bells of the most importatnt cathedrals to the smallest of chapels.For this we suffer a little, but the rewards are great!
My uncle, Hugo the Beautiful ,is a Knight to the Vatican. The honor bestowed by the last Pope.
"How could he be beautiful? " the smallest daughter Conswilia asked.
The bell ringer said"Not for his looks, but the sound he could bring forth from the bells."
"Please explain" asked the Monseigneor.
The bell ringer told how Hugo the Beautiful, rang the bells for the Vatican for the turn of the century, midnight December 31 , 1299. He had a special harness made so he could swing head long into two bells . He struck both as his head went between them. After hitting the bells twelve times his ears were gone, torn of. The throngs of people in the Square were in tears, tears of joy caused by the sweet music of Uncle Hugo's head and the bells.
WE have another Uncle, Uncle Wayneo,the Lowbrow Echo.
His specality is striking two bells, but in succession, not together.
This way the second strike is softerand slightly later then the first giving the effect of an echo.
The family looked at each other and nodded their heads in agreement, understanding the concept, but still not willing to beleave this tale.
The bell ringer continued his tale long into the night, naming distant relatives , close cousins, some from long ago and others from the present.
When he had finished his meal and many gobblets of wine the family prepared to return to bed, but only after making the bell ringer promise to ring the belles of The Cathedral of Santa Magnolia Castrada Chasten D'La Gludious Maximus Maunder, the next morning.
Little Conswalia cleaned off the table, Swept the crumbs and remainder of the peasant bread in to the little box she kept. Conswalia always fed the doves that lived in the Cathedral tower with the bread crumbs.
Paolo was in a cod sweat. He had never known anxiety. Silent tears formed in his eyes as he extingushed the candles and returned to bed for a sleepless night.
Part 8
It seemed like an eternity , but the night sky began to soften from its deepest blackness. Paolos thoughts were confirmed by the crowing of Pepe, the proud cock of the flock. He crowed several times and soon other roosters throught the small city began their morning prayers. Paolo did the same. This time he meant his, though he still wasn,t sure why.
It wasn,t long before the entire residency was a bustle with activity. The cook was in the kitchen, Poalo made his trip to the carrage house and stable to see to the animals. The rest of the famile hurried to the chapel for the Monseigneor,s early Mass. It was breif but complete.
As all of the family joined around the kitchen table, talk turned to the subject of the Bell Ringer.
It was soon that he joined them , smelling the food roused him from his bed.
All were suprised to see the Archbishop walk into the kitchen. He promptly blessed them all .
The Monseigneor greeted him with open arms and returned the blessing. He then asked "What brings you to our humble Cathedral?"
The Archbishop rellied " My Guardian Angles tell me you have a visitor, and I wish to hear what he can do."
The cook smiled, the Archbishop always enjoyed the cooks efforts be they humble or grand. "Please sit your Fullness." "I have made A vegetable bread, smoked ham, sausage and a French style of Bread soaked in eggs and flavored with almonds and spices.
After everyone had satisfied there morning hunger it became very quite. At that point the Monseigneor came to the business at hand.
He started by asking the Archishop to join with Paolo, the Bell ringer and himself to ring the bells of the Cathedral of Santa Magnolia Castrada Chasten D'La Gludious Maximus Maunder. They were heading to the Bell Tower at this moment!
The Archbishop said "I'll go with you to the Cathedral, but only to the front doors, I wish to listen from the Plaza."
"Very well " said the Monseigneor, "As you wish."
The rest of the family followed with the exception of the cook and Consella. They remained to clean up after breakfast. Consella helped and gathered the uneaten bread and crumbs for the doves.
The Monseigneor led the way. The Archbishop stopped at the front doors, and remained there with the rest of the family.
Paolol followed behind the Monseigneor and the Bell Ringer. The Monseigneor was in his element. His chest swelled with pride as he pointed out the Marble carved "Stations of the Cross". Next he brougth the Bell Ringers attention to the Imported stained Glass windows. There were twelve in all. Each was a scene from the Old or New testement. The Bell ringer was impressed.
They went through the stone arches in the rear of the Cathedral and began to climb a curved oaken stair case, it was very steep . It brought them to the Choir loft and then through another smaller stone arch. Here they began the long climb up a stout wide ladder. They went from landing to landing, climbing this way then that. Always going higher. When they stopped for a rest, Paolo noticed the bell ringr was carrying a leather sack. He asked "What is in the sack?"
The Bell Ringer answered "Just the tools of my Trade."
They continued to the Bellfry with out pause.
Once there, the Monseigneor proudly pointed out the bells. There were many. He was most proud of the largest, it had a unique pulley system and a long balancing arm. This allowed and average man to ring the bells.The balancing arm was currently covered with Doves, they roosted here during the night or when they weren't flying around the plaza looking for food.
Now was the moment Paolo and the Monseigneor had feared. It was time to ring the bells.
The Monseigneor directed Paolo to ring the bells.
The bell ringer interupted, he ask Paolo to only ring the biggest bell.
Poalo went to the rope , stretched his fullest and grasped with both hands. His hands were callosed from years of ringing the bells.
The Monseigneor placed a mixture of beeswax and merino lambs wool in each ear to prevent injury to his ears. Paolo had his ear plugs in place.
Paolo pulled with all of his strenght, the pulley system multiplied his efforts and the bell move silently . The movement made the doves take flight and head to to the openings in the bell tower. The bell stopped its swing and reversed its direction when the heavens opened.......
DDDDDDaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrooooooooonnnnnggggggggggggg!
The big bell rang over the plaza. More doves around the plaza took flight and joined the ones fom the bell tower and they circled the Plaza.
Paolo family cheered with delight. The Monseignoer's chest expanded with pride. The Archbishop nodded his head in approval.
The Bell ringer stode silent as the ringing subsided. A small smile appeared on his mouth. He asked the Monseigneor if he could ring the bell too. The Monseigneor agreed.
Down below ,in the Plaza the family was joined by Consella and the cook. Consella scattered the bread crumbs for the doves.
The doves had alresdy gathered around her , it was a daily ritual. Soon all the crumbs were cleaned from the Plaza.
In the bell tower the bell ringer removed a highly polished box from the sack. With reverance he opened it to reveal a tiny silver hammer and a small silver chalk holder from there places in the blach velvet lining.He approached the bell , looking at it from side to side. He then took the tiny hammer and began tapping very softly. Ding , ding,
ding, drang, draaannnggg. He had found what he was looking for and he marked the spot with the piece of chalk. "X" He tested again, draaannnggg. Yes , that will do very nicely.
The Monseigneor and Paolo looked at each other . The Monseigneor asked "Is that it, is that all?"
"No" said the bell ringer. '"I found my spot." this was where he would strike his head to the bell!
The bell ringer turned and began paceing off steps away from the bells. When he had counted fifty paces he stopped and turned again.
He looked at the bell , he could see the mark he had made.He crouched down in a sprinters position, checked the mark again. He exhaled deeply, he drew in a deep breath and exhaled again. He turned his head from side to side. He looked up , and began to move with the grace of a gazell. Quickly he picked up speed, he was trained to do this. He always kept his eyes on the spot, when he was about 12ft. from the bell he launched himself like a bolt from a crossbow. He tucked his arms close to his body, straighten his neck and back ,while his legs trailed behind continuing the straight line.
The Glory of all the Sunrises burst forth...
BBBBBAAAAAAHHHHHHHHDDDDDDDDRRRRROOOOOOOONNNNNNNNGGGGGGOOOOONNNNGGGGGG
The most beautiful sound to ever sing out of the bell washed down on the plaza, flowed over the small city, crashed through every window and door. It then raced to the country side imbracing everything and anything in its path.
Every living, breathing being was captured by its glorious song.
The country side was alive with movement to the city. The city was alive with movement to the plaza.
Tears were flowing from the Archbishops eyes. It was the same for the Monseigneor and Paolo.
IT was The Miracle of the Bell.
The People were blessing themselves, the Archbishop was blessing the people.
Paolo fell to his knees. All was lost. He would be replaced. He would be homeless. He had no future. He asked himself "What shall I do?"
The Monseigneor was confused with emotion. It was a miracle, yet he would lose Paolo.He heard it, yet could not beleive his ears.
The plaza began to fill with people seeking the source of the miracle. The doves scattered and took flight as the plaza filled from side to side. The nobles and rich merchants pushed closest to the front, as was their due. The plaza was a sea of faces looking up towards the bell tower.
The Monseigneor turned to the bell ringer and told him "I heard it, it was beautiful, it was a miracle, yet I don't beleive my ears."
He asked the bell ringer if he could do that again. "Please, I don't beleive my ears."
"Of coures" said the bell ringer.He paced off the fifty paces, took his sprinters position , got his mark and began.He kept his eyes on the mark and picked up speed.
At that moment the Bell tower began to fill with doves. The doves, having been chased from the plaza by the crowds returned to the bell tower, But now there were far more.
The bell ringer launched himself at 12 ft.
At the same time the doves began to settle on the balance arm of the bell.
The Bell ringer tucked his arms in and straightened his neck and back.
More doves settled on the arm, far far more then before and the bell shifted. The bell shifted so much the bell ringer missed it completely. He hurtled past the bell and out through the opening.
Down to the plaza he plunged one hundred feet below. He was brought to a sudden stop by the cobble stones.
Splat!
The crowd was agast!
The Monseigneor and Paolo looked down, and quickly headed for the ladder. Down and down they went, through the choire, down the cicular stairs and out the front doors.
The Archbishope craddled the stilled figure in his arms and looked at the Monseigneor. He asked the Moneigneor "Monseigneor Monseigneor, do you know this man , do you know his name?" The Monseigneor replied"I can't remember his name right now but
HIS FACE SURE RINGS A BELL!!!
TO BE CONT.
avid
THe R/142 and its load of railfans is still missing and BMTman and heypaul are still trapped in the guise of The Monseigneor and Paolo.
What will happen next?
Get your popcorn, and be patient. Another stunning segment is on its way to you!
avid
PART 9
A hush had gripped the inhabitants of the plaza. Slowly soft murmurs of voices could be heard passing reports of the goings on at the front of The Cathedral of Santa Magnolia Castrada Chasten D'La Gludious Maximus Maunder. The message was short and bitter.
The Bell ringer was gone, finished, he was dead. The Miracle of the bell was to be no more.
Silent prayers were offered as every eye shed tears of sorrow. Soon sobs could be heard as shoulders shook and noses ran.
One set of eyes shed tears of joy. Paolo had received a pardon, his position was secure.
The Archbishop mounted the steps to the cathedral, turned to the masses and spoke. "My children, you have born wittness to a micacle! He who rang the bells is dead! Tomorrow there will be a Solemn High Requiem Mass."
He turned to the Monsignor and said " I'll inform the Cardinal by a messanger on horse back." "See to the arrangements for tomorrw.
The next day the small city was overflowing with people. Some came out of curiousity, others to be wittness to a great event. The entire orphanage came form The Little Angles of the Wind Blown Blossoms, to sing in the choir. Sister Sofia,Sorrow of the Setting Sun, would Sing the Death dirge. The rest of the nuns would add their angelic voices with those of the orphans for the rest of the mass.
A band of gypsies came to sell their wears, and do what they do. The wine merchants set up stands, the bakeshops sold their goods. The day took on a festive air. Music came from the gypsies, and as the wine flowed into the night the solemn pagentry of the morning gave way to celebration of the miracle of the bell.
The people were dancing and drinking long into the night. The wagoneers, always found together, could be seen comparing the rolling stock that cluttered the narrow streets. They some how agreed the WINE Merchants wagon was the best. It was the biggest, barely able to squeeze through the streets of the city. It could hold an emense amount of weight. The fact that the wine was free had no bearing on their decision, they stayed close to it.
The night wore on , and the celebrants drifted to their home. Those who traveled from afar camped in the meadows outside of town or in the plaza. The wagoneers slept in the empty wine wagon,or under it.
Soon the plaza was quite, the small fires from cooking died down and soon olny snoring could be heard.
Paolo slept like a baby, the night before he felt guity because he rejoyced at the bell ringer death. He asked the Monsignor to hear his confession. The Monsignor told him he had not sinned, he had not caused the bell ringers death, so he should have no guilt.
This releived Paolo, and he slept well. The orpans stayed the night all over the residency, it warmed the monsignors heart, he loved the children.
As Pepe the rooster called out his morning prayers, the cook began the morning meal, but this time for many more. Paolo returned from the stable and was about to prepare to eat when he heard a tapping on the kitchen window. He turned and approached the window to see what made the tapping noise. He SCREAMED IN HORROR.
A GHOST! A GHOST!
The cook ran to the door, with a meat cleaver in hand, and exited the kitchen. Paolo followed . When Paolo whet into the yard he found the cook holding a man by the scruff of the neck.
" This is no ghost" said the cook.
The man answered with a yell to be released.
The Monsignor had come to investigate the comotion and was surprised as well. "Who are you" demanded the Monsignor.
The man answered that he was the brother of the dead man.
"I have come for my brothers body." "We were notified by the cardinal yesterday." "I rode all day and night, only stopping for fresh horses.""I have come to take him home for burial in the Vatican!"
The Monsignor told him to come inside and join them for breakfast.
The stranger asked Paolo "Why did you cry out a ghost"?
Paolo said "When I saw your face I thought it was him. You look so much alike." The stranger agreed with paolo, after all , the men in our family are all bell ringers. We all look alike after years of scars,bruisings, bumps and broken noses. The one way to tell us apart is our style, our unique artistry with the bells. No two are alike.
They finished breakfast in silence.
The cook then asked "How will you take your brother home?"
The stranger told them he would use his brothers horse and cart.
Paolo went to the stable and prepared the horse and cart, he then brought it to the crypt entrance. The bell ringer had been put there for the night.
The Monsignor went to the plaza looking for help, he needed stronge men. When he spotted the wagoneers he pointed at six of them and orderd them to follow him. They did as they were told. The worked well together and soon had the coffen loaded on to the cart.
The stranger thanked the Monsignor and was about to leave when the Monsignor call out to him. "Wait, a favor , please" The stranger stopped ans asked "Yes, what favor?"
The Monsignor then said " Your brother made music from our bell, could you , a bell ringer, do the sme before you leave, in his memory, please it would mean so much."
The stranger thought awhile and agreed it was a good idea, a good jesture, a good memorial.
The stranger grabbed his sheepskin sack and followed the Monsignor and Paolo to the cathedral. They went up to the chiorloft, up the steep ladder and finally reached the bell tower. There they rested.
Below , in the plaza , young Conseella began to feed the doves the bread crumbs from breakfast. The doves gathered all about her.
In the tower , the stranger removed a beautiful box finished with an inlay of mother of pearl. He opened the box and it revealed a pure white silk clothe . On the clothe was a tiny gold hammer and a gold chalk holder. He began his search for the special spot.
Ding. Ding. Dinnng. Drinng . Drriinngg. He was getting closer and continued searching for the perfect spot. Drang. Drong.
Down in the plaza, one of the wagoneers stood up in the wine wagon having felt the need to releive his blatter. He walked to the back of the wagon and took careful aim. He arched a strong steady stream over two wine barrals. He was proud of the force he could produce. A scream came from behind the empty barrels, another wagoneer jumped up with curses spilling from his mouth. The soaked wagoneer climbed over the barrels and onto the wine wagon. Blows were exchanged with a great deal of pushing and shoving. So, others having been stepped on while they slept joined the fight and a riot was going on in the huge wagon. Through out the plaza other people had awoken , the riot was loud. Two wagoneers were on the drivers bench and tumbled on to the rear team of Belgium Draft horses, with a start the horses bolted . Now the riot was moving about the plaza. All exits from the plaza were blocked , so the draft horese could only go around and around the plaza, pulling the riot behind.
In the tower , the stranger, having found his spot, paced of sixty paces, turned and looked for his spot.
THe horses pulling the riot kept running in circles , scattering campers and the doves trying to eat the crumbes that little Consella scattered over the cobble stones of the plaza.The doves flew higher and higher to escape the riot below.
The stranger , half bent at the waste, began his run. He picked up speed, faster and faster he ran. His breaths came quicker, his aarms and legs pumped as he ran faster and faster. When he had closed to with in 13ft. he launched himself. His neck and spine straight he tucked in his arms.
At that moment, the doves began to settle on the balance arm of the bell. The bell shifted far ti the left.
The stranger missed the bell and sailed out through the opening and down to the plaza , 100ft below.
Paolo and the Monsignor looked down to the plaza as a crowed began to form around the motionless figure.
They ran to the ladder and swiftly desended. They raced through the chior and down to the main part of the cathedral. The pushed their way through tha crowd to reach the stranger.
to be cont
avid
The Archbishop, Having heard the riot, had rush out to the Cathederaland was craddling the still form of the starnger.
AS the wagoneers gathered around and The Monsignor and Paolo knelt, the Archbishop asked "What have you done?" What will I tell the CARDINAL?" The Archbishop lokked at the Monsignor and Said
"MONSIGNOR, MONSIGNOR, WHO IS THIS MAN? DO YOU KNOW WHO HE IS?"
"DO YOU KNOW HIS NAME?"
The Monsignor answered,
"NO BUT HE IS A DEAD RINGER FOR HIS BROTHER"
Fini
avid
The Archbishop, Having heard the riot, had rush out to the Cathederaland was craddling the still form of the starnger.
AS the wagoneers gathered around and The Monsignor and Paolo knelt, the Archbishop asked "What have you done?" What will I tell the CARDINAL?" The Archbishop lokked at the Monsignor and Said
"MONSIGNOR, MONSIGNOR, WHO IS THIS MAN? DO YOU KNOW WHO HE IS?"
"DO YOU KNOW HIS NAME?"
The Monsignor answered,
"NO BUT HE IS A DEAD RINGER FOR HIS BROTHER"
There was a blinding flash!
BMTman and heypaul spilled out of the motormans Cab.
On the TV anews report was on and the caster was telling about a bloisterous mob of trainbuffs being taken in for being drunk and disorderly on a subwaycar slated to be scrapped. The red car hat the word Cardinal scrawled ont the side.
Fini
avid
Hey Avid, you really need to come to chat on Saturday. We could do a role playing game thing. It would be fun.
For is not the prime directive KILL THE PASSENGERS? The MTA capitol program still has NOT beeen approved even though Pataki has encouraged approval of the second ave tunnel. However I understand that even that approval Pataki is waiving on
"Either you live or you die"
-Bernard Ryder (Mr.Blue)
New MTA motto.
M1 (The M1 and only)
Heard on the 12:09 AM Penn-to-Babylon this morning (a train which had many NYPD officers-in-training on board):
"Attention law enforcement personnel, only LIRR passes will be accepted on this train".
What's that all about?
Chuck
Probabably meant that they are going by the book and that all cops MUST have their LIRR passes with them or they have to pay-just showing their sheild or other proof won't do. (Even though ALL NYPD cops are eligible for the pass)
The conductor probably got a ticket this morning!!!
There are many NYPD officers in training all over the place. I've seen them in Penn, on the L, on the 8th ave line...
Unlike the subway and NYC Buses, Police Officers can't just flash their shield on the LIRR for a free ride. They have to apply for a pass, and they get em too without question.
are any official ideas out yet?
The official cause was nknown right from the start. A broken rail caused the derailment. This was reported in the media almost immediately.
Broken rail
Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail Broken rail
We get the picture.:-)
Wait a minute, am I to understand that a broken rail was the cause of the Lex line derailment? You implied it so subtly I almost couldn't catch it!
:·)
Wasn't there a broken rail on the Manhattan Bridge not too long ago?
In the last Time environmental special Ford had an alternative fuel car ad with the line "Alternative transportation doesn't always have to mean a boring government study about commuter trains"
Looks like the concept that only studies are done instead of any real improvements is now common enough knowledge to be exploited by major ad agencies.
Arti
As some of you may recall, I am in NYC from April 15th to the 21 for the APA (American Planning Association) National Planning Conference.
My first set of reports and impressions on the NYC transit system and related matters:
1) My hotel was literally right across from the 42nd Street-Port Authority Bus Terminal station on the A-C-E Eighth Avenue line. Very handy!
2) Rode the 7 line (the line that John Rocker made famous) to the end of the line and back. Saw nothing but red trains (Redbirds, I presume) on the line. Felt perfectly safe and I didn't see anyone with purple hair. (There WAS a beggar crossing from car to car telling a sob story, but we get them on the CTA too. I ignored him, as did everyone else.)
3) Boy, IND mezzanines ARE enormous!
4) The unlimited Metrocard is the best deal in transit. Even though I'mm not going to be here for seven days, a 7-day unlimited card was the best deal available, and I bought one. It's great to be able to leave the system and reenter it anywhere without regard to the expense of passing through the turnstiles again.
5) The Metrocard vending machines are damned easy to use. The machines in Chicago are fairly easy to use, but they take only cash, not credit or debit cards.
6) Saw the gap fillers at South Ferry station. Cool!
7) Penn Station is ugly as sin, and Grand Central is like a palace. Gawd, commuters who are in a hurry and don't care about how nice the station is get Grand Central, while newcomers to the city on the Amtrak are "welcomed" with Madison Penn Basement.
8) Went to the Transit Museum. Very cool!
9) Was out late on the trains last night (dinner in Brooklyn near Bergen Street F-G station) with my department coworkers, an annual Conference tradition) and I saw the garbage train in the 42nd Street ACE station. It stinks like hell!
Of course, I saw some things unrelated to transit, but that's irrelevant here.
Now that the Conference is nearly over (ends today, Wednesday), I will be free Thursday and on Friday morning to see more sights. I plan to ride the PATH out to New Jersey and ride the new light rail line. I also plan to ride the Staten Island ferry, and the SIRT if time allows. I will report on what else I see when I get back to Chicago.
Conference was crowded. I manned City Planning's table on Sunday.
John, If you still have your ears on .... try to catch a Slant 40 on the Brighton line, have a hot dog at Coney Island & pick a different line to get back, the Sea Beach (N) isn't bad. If you like twists & turns take the J/Z to Jamaica, then back on E/F ... boring underground trip. There are also some nice El rides in the Bronx. Enjoy !
Mr t__:^)
Take the Brighton to Coney Island, Eat at Nathans, stroll the boardwalk. If you want Brooklyn T Shirts, there is a store on the landside of the boardwalk by Stillwell Ave, take the B or F back to the city
Speaking of pulling someone's chain as I commented on an earlier piece, I noticed you can take one train (the Brighton) to Coney and either the West End of F train back to the city. I have a better suggestion pal; why waste all that time. Take the Sea Beach there and back and ride on a real train. There, I got you!. BTW, have you been keeping up with all that census crap on this site. A lot of people are throwing darts at each other.
Well, Fred, for a moment there, I was worried you weren't going to plug your favorite route.:-)
Steve B--AVEXP: Have no fear, the Big F is here and making sure that no one rains on my Sea Beach parade. Since this was the first train you rode in 1965 I was a little taken back that you didn't jump in and give me some moral support. BTW, in case you don't know it, Brighton Beach #1Bob is both my buddy and my foil on this site. Chao.
Sorry about that. Consider it given. Of course, as you know, if the N were running express along Broadway, it would be that much more enjoyable.
Oh and BTW, have you looked in the car photo roster recently? There's a photo of a train of multis running on the Sea Beach open cut on fantrip which is signed up as 4/57th St.
Steve: I have a picture of that. It was taken in 1961 and it is color. The Sea Beach still carried the #4 designation then. It was about 1964 when "N" starting appearing on the train. Nice to see you're keeping abreast of doings on my favorite train.
It's possible that the N marking may have started appearing prior to 1964. IIRC, once the R-27s and R-30s had arrived in sufficient numbers, they began providing all weekend Southern Division service, which would have included the N. And since their roll signs included the old titles, they would have displayed "N/Broadway-Sea Beach" up front.
[7) Penn Station is ugly as sin, and Grand Central is like a palace. Gawd, commuters who are in a hurry and don't care about how nice the station is get Grand Central, while newcomers to the city on the Amtrak are "welcomed" with Madison Penn Basement.]
While Penn Station serves (and is owned by) Amtrak, a large majority of its users are commuters on the LIRR or New Jersey Transit. I believe it's something north of 80%. If the plans to convert the Farley Post Office ever get beyond the talking stage, Amtrak riders would get to use an impressive station, while the commuters would remain at Penn.
[While Penn Station serves (and is owned by) Amtrak, a large majority of its users are commuters on the LIRR or New Jersey Transit. I believe it's something north of 80%. If the plans to convert the Farley Post Office ever get beyond the talking stage, Amtrak riders would get to use an impressive station, while the commuters would remain at Penn.]
Another reason to rebuild the original beast--in an improved version (Metro North access, a fast moving sidewalk running from 6th to 8th, etc.)
Interesting to hear your impressions of NYC.
You may want to check out the new Franklin Shuttle. And for a HUGE mezzanine, try Canal St - Holland Tunnel on the ACE (trivia types jump in - is that the biggest?)
Would also suggest the Brighton Line to Coney Island and return via the "F". I think (?) the section of el from West 8th St to Van Siclen Ave is the oldest section in the city (the steel was reused from the Fulton El when it was rebuilt). Again trivia types can help out here. Nice views of CI Yard from the "F".
Enjoy. The APA was up in Boston I think 2 years ago so I don't think they'll be back soon. I don't belong (the ITE and AREMA are enough) but I see their stuff from time to time.
If you have time, take in the express run along CPW. Just make sure you get an A train of R-38s. They're the 60-footers with electronic pixel signs above the storm door and they have a New York-style railfan window. OK, it's not like the ones Chicago's L cars used to have, but it's better than nothing. You may have to let a train or two of R-44s (they have a round blue A sign to the right of the cab door) go by before you get a train of R-38s.
i must re shoot this r-38 A train next time on vidieo my next trip in this fall !!
A good sequence would be to film the R38 "A" train from, perhaps, Chambers Street-H&M to Euclid Avenue, where the R38s are operating at their best speeds. They are hampered by Grade Timers along Central Park West, but the view there is excellent as well.
You will have an unobstructed railfan window view from the front of the R38.
Wayne
IIRC, the only grade timers on the uptown CPW express track are at that curve south of 125th St. Southbound, there's one at 72nd St.
I'll be damned if they ever put in any between, say 72nd and 103rd Sts. The R-10s would turn over in their graves if that were to happen...
Ride the Rockaway line! Former RR ROW! Up to 8 minutes without seeing a station and you're surrounded by water between Howard Beach (JFK Airport) and Broad Channel, two of the few subway stops without a street as its primary name. Maybe you'll be lucky and the south one of the two drawbridges will be up (north one inoperative). Just don't go on the weekend (no trains Rockaway Blvd. to Rockaways - shuttle buses connect to shuttle trains from Far Rockaway to Rockaway Park).
Also, look at 168st on the 1-9. It has a cavernous echoing station with elevators as only exit. If you haven't seen it yet, take the A to 168st and use the elevators for the transfer since its more impressive if you first see it from the overpass over the tracks than from the train. There are ancient-looking lights. Very dim, and there's a colony of pigeons that fly around there (I've always seen a few, and have no idea where they come from since the nearest elevated station South is 125th and the nearest one North is Dyckman. I haven't seen pigeons in the other stations. It's one of the few stations where it's easy to notice which half was the original station and which half was part of the platform extension project. 181 st is similar, but not as great.
They've since brightened up 168th Street station with mercury-vapor lamps set in metal cans which hang by rods from the ceiling. This indirect spotlighting complements the existing dim light and works quite well.
Yes, there are pigeons there too, unfortunately. You can hear them flapping about. Keep your eyes up if you don't want to get pooped on.
Wayne
[Yes, there are pigeons there too, unfortunately. You can hear them flapping about. Keep your eyes up if you don't want to get pooped on.]
I'd say *don't* look up - getting pigeon doo-doo in one's eye would be no picnic!
[Also, look at 168st on the 1-9. It has a cavernous echoing station with elevators as only exit. If you haven't seen it yet, take the A to 168st and use the elevators for the transfer since its more impressive if you first see it from the overpass over the tracks than from the train. There are ancient-looking lights. Very dim, and there's a colony of pigeons that fly around there (I've always seen a few, and have no idea where they come from since the nearest elevated station South is 125th and the nearest one North is Dyckman. I haven't seen pigeons in the other stations. It's one of the few stations where it's easy to notice which half was the original station and which half was part of the platform extension project. 181 st is similar, but not as great.]
168th Street originally had chandeliers over the tracks--the fittings are still there. It's a fabulous whisper gallery--stand directly opposite the people on the opposite platform as far from the wall as they're standing, and you can hear them talking as if they were right next to you! And if I remember correctly it was the world's largest brick arch when built--may still be, for all I know.
[7) Penn Station is ugly as sin, and Grand Central is like a palace. Gawd, commuters who are in a hurry and don't care about how nice the station is get Grand Central, while newcomers to the city on the Amtrak are "welcomed" with Madison Penn Basement.]
And to think it used to be an even grander palace than GCT. That basement handles more passengers than any other rail terminal or airport in the country, and yet the Port Authority spends billions on Newark and Kennedy and Penn Station stays a dump.
Now that Madison Square Garden is talking about moving, I think we have an ideal and irreplaceable opportunity now to rebuild it as the world's greatest transportation hub, with easy round-the-clock access to Amtrak, NJT, the LIRR, Metro North, most of the City's subway lines, the three major airports, the PABT, the heliport, a new ferry port, and a new West Side people mover or light rail line. But so far I'm a minority of one on this; in fact, I was a minority of zero, it seemed a joke when I first mentioned it, until it occurred to me that the government could trade land near the Convention Center--which MSG is thinking of moving to--for the Penn Station property, then use the Farley/Moynihan Station funds to rebuild the portion of the station where the garden is. The tower would remain intact, providing revenue to rebuild the rest of the station over a period of years.
?
My big gripe with New York City is the seedy look of Coney Island. Every time I go to New York and visit Coney Island, the place I feel like I've been in a shipwreck. The place has gone to the dogs. I keep hoping that some agency or action group with money will come along and revive the place but that is getting more doubtful by the day. It seems like Coney is a place of the past, but there is still Nathan's and there is still The Cyclone, my favorite ride of all the rides anywhere in this world. I only hope they aren't headed for the junkpile. Manhattan is still a great place to visit and there are sights galore, but to me New York City should be a showplace, the showplace of US culture. It would be great if places like the South Bronx, Bed-Sty and other run down places were restored. Maybe if more young yuppies move in there is a chance that old neighborhoods will improve.
[My big gripe with New York City is the seedy look of Coney Island. Every time I go to New York and visit Coney Island, the place I feel like I've been in a shipwreck. The place has gone to the dogs. I keep hoping that some agency or action group with money will come along and revive the place but that is getting more doubtful by the day. It seems like Coney is a place of the past, but there is still Nathan's and there is still The Cyclone, my favorite ride of all the rides anywhere in this world. I only hope they aren't headed for the junkpile. Manhattan is still a great place to visit and there are sights galore, but to me New York City should be a showplace, the showplace of US culture. It would be great if places like the South Bronx, Bed-Sty and other run down places were restored. Maybe if more young yuppies move in there is a chance that old neighborhoods will improve.]
It would take a lot of yuppies! The middle class could do it, but we've driven them out with crime, bad schools and insanely high taxes. Fix those problems and they'll come back.
NY always had poor people and rough people. But something has changed; somehow we've lost even minimal expectations of behavior. The sad thing is, I think expectations *can* be restored, according to the broken window theory. Look at what happened to the cabs--before Giuliani cracked down, they were a total hazard, now they're fine.
And maybe back down the drain when the pathetic Mark Green takes over as mayor.
SEA BEACH FRED, KEEP OUT OF NY POLITICS ARE I WILL CALL YOUR NEIGHBOR IN PASADENA WITH YOUR PHONE NUMBER. YOU KNOW WHO HE IS
Take in the Atlantic Ave. and Broadway Jct complex on the L and J before they reconfigure the whole thing.
Carl M.
more than a month ago a friend of mine, karl b.,
sent me a copy of the movie subway stories... we
could debate the accuracy of the subway scenes...
but i was deeply moved by gregory hines performance
as a new yorker waiting for a train... he seems to
be eating some peanuts and listening to some
soothing classical music... he is very aware of his
surroundings and soon notices an obviously upset
young woman on the opposite platform... she seems to
be getting ready to jump onto the tracks... he
watches her and he becomes increasingly alarmed...
as she gets ready to jump, he screams out to
her... although he blows the new york cool posture,
he remains true to his deep awareness and caring for
other people... for me the power of the episode was
in watching the expression on his face and in
following him to the point when he screams out to
the woman...
it is a time in judaism and christianity when
issues of freedom , resurrection , renewal and
faith are central...
i would like to be able to approach these issues and the people around me with the kind of sensitivity that gregory hines displayed...
may the holidays remind us of what came before us and what lies ahead of us... happy passover and happy easter to my friends at subtalk
And a happy Pesach to you too, Paul.
Wayne
Same to you Paul.
Peace,
Andee
I had not seen any flyers & didn't remember that at the Feb swap meet that this Saturday April 22nd was the next scheduled show. Anyhow a friend asked if I was going, so I call Greg Loibl. He says he just found out that the Baga Telle Resturant is no more and probally doesn't have time to find another place for all of us to get togather.
If you signed in at the Feb. show he says that he has your name & address and will be sending out flyers when the show is recheduled.
(If he had my name & address and JUST found out, why didn't I get a flyer ... humm, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, looks like a duck ... must be a duck)
Mr t__:^)
Fooey, Phooey.
Thanx Thurston for the info. Many of us would have been unpleasantly surprised Saturday. I'm feeling let down actually. What next, no Easter eggs?
Joe C
Nope, just rubber duckies!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
04/20/2000
In a way good riddance. Not for the Metrocard show, but the Bagatelle restaurant. Although as an experiment to test this collectable show for the first time, it wasn't a bad idea. But to schedule 3 more wasn't.
The Baga Telle was a poorly lit saloon, not conducive for a collectable show. let's hope Greg finds a bigger, better lit establishment, and not another saloon. On the other hand, the food was outstanding so feelings are mixed.
Bill Newkirk
I'm lucky enough to get this Thursday and Friday off, which will give me opportunity to do some weekday-only stuff. Hope to have a 'last hurrah' on the Newark PCCs, do the 'Q' in and out of Brighton, the Pelham express, and maybe check out the new light rail. Now if the temperature would only get its act together and act like late April-
A happy Easter and Passover to everyone on Subtalk!
I can definately tell you, the Newark PCC and the New Hudson Bergen Light Rail is the freakin' best. Because of those two lines, my eyes has been open even wider to the transit buff field.
HAPPY EASTER AND PASSOVER TO ALL TRANSIT BUFFS!
R142 Boi 2K
GO LIGHT RAIL, GO R-142!
www.transitalk.com
04/20/2000
HAPPY EASTER AND PASSOVER TO ALL !!!
Bill Newkirk
The house has been cleaned of chametz, the Seder table is set, the oven awaits the turkey, and my younger daughter is en route home from college for the holiday. As we gather tonight with our family and friends to celebrate the miracle of our deliverance from our oppressors, let us thank G-d for all our blessings, for our family and friends both near and far, and let us recite with joy the Shehekhiyanu: Blessed are You, Adonai our G-d, Ruler of the Universe, who grants us life and sustenance and has permitted us to reach this season.
May the blessings of the season be on all of you, whatever your faith or beliefs, and let us say Amen.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And a Happy Pesach to you and your family and to all my cohorts.
We are all transit freaks no matter what faith we have. Happy Easter
to all, also.
Amen!
AMEN.
And a blessed and joyous Pesach to you, Anon.
AND to all my friends out there:
Happy Easter
Happy Pesach
to one and all.
Wayne
Happy Passover and Easter to all, normaly at the end of the Sedar you say "Next Year in Isreal", well this year I'm saying
Next Year in an R142!!!!
Amen!
Next year in Jerusalem, You can have the R142
I was reading the wonderful info on this site under the IND Division and I ran across this section:
"Joseph McKee, president of the Board of Alderman in 1929, was not in favor of the elevated portions in the outer boroughs. He felt it would depreciate property values and slow business and residential development, and used the IRT Jerome Ave El as an example. He felt the Els would have to be replaced later on; they were a menace to traffic. Never mind that the cost of an El was estimated to be ¼ that of a new subway. It turned out that building an El doubled land values, but a subway would increase land values from 4 to 12 times!
The Board of Transportation map that listed these routes was created on August 23rd, 1929."
My question: Who would have this map and, if so, can it be obtained?
Thanks!
The actual proposal for the an Independent City-Built rapid transit network stretches back to 1911. On January 25 of that year, Frank J. Sprague and Oscar T. Crosby submitted a "Proposal for Equipment and Operation of an Independent City-Built Rapid Transit System" to the Public Service Commission.
The original document and its accompanying map are in my possession. Four basic routes were proposed (wording is exact):
(1) A 4-track one-level subway from Times Square and 45th Street down Seventh Avenue, extended, and through Varick Street, both of which sections can be built for less cost than a double deck line on Lexington Avenue below 42nd Street; an extension thence through Church Street to Liberty Street, with two tracks to the Battery.
(2) A 4-track crosstown connection through 34th Street from Seventh Avenue to Lexington Avenue.
(3) a 4-track extension from 34th Street up Lexington Avenue to 138th Street, with a connection for providing a future extension through 138th Street and Southern Boulevard, as already planned; thence north from the 138th junction to 157th Street, to connect with a future 3-track elevated up River and Jerome Avenues to Jerome Park Reservoir.
(4) A 2-track extension from Liberty Street, through separate tunnels under the East River, to Flatbush Avenue and Fulton Street via the Manhattan Bridge Brooklyn extension, and then out Lafayette Avenue to Broadway, or out the Eastern Parkway, as may be agreed.
The map also shows routes over the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges, and down Brooklyn's Fourth Avenue.
Note: please do not ask to have the map reproduced; this book is delicate and not easily scanned.
In the appendix, there are five additional routes that had already been proposed by the IRT and also by the Hudson-Manhattan Railway, which originally wanted to extend its system to Grand Central Station and then into Brooklyn.
The possibility exists that this entire rare early New York City subway document will be offered on eBay.
I don't want it reproduced. I was just wondering if such a thing existed. I just wanted to see where the routes would have gone, and you have more than satisfied that desire.
Keep that in a safe place. It may night have any monetary value, but it certainly means more than money to a railfan as yourself.
Also, let me see if I can guess which current subway line you were describing in your post:
1) The Seventh Ave IRT (1,2,3,9)
2) 4 track connection through 34th St? Not sure what that is... wouldn't that be very close to the LIRR/Amtrak tubes?
3) The Lexington Ave IRT (4,5,6) and then, when reaching the Bronx, the IRT # 4.
4) I'm not sure of this line, but it sounds like the Brooklyn IRT (2,3,4,5)... but, you mentioned Lafayette Ave, and the Crosstown G now passes through there, with an eleveted line many years before that.
I need both your help! As you know they MTA is creating designs for the second avenue subway line. But the problem is that I can't make a digital map. I wonder if you could help Michael Adler? If you can I will send you details like under which roads the lines will be under. Heypaul I will have to send you my lines, tell me if stations should be moved around. Move north or south of where I put the station. If you both can help me, I will be grateful.
Thank you.
"If you can I will send you details like under which roads the lines will be under."
Please direct this comment to:
The Department of Redundancy Department
Superfluous Wording Bureau of Superfluous Wording
2000 Avenue of the Americas Avenue #2000
12th Floor 12
New York, New York 10101-0101
I was wondering if anyone knows where I can get a simulator which simulates the Job of a Motorman. Also, Does anyoone know where I can get a Railfan video of like the 7 or E line?
Thank you.
Happy Railfanning.
4eva riding the Rails,
Paul
here i am !!!
I SHOT HE NUMBER # 7 WITH A TRIPOD THRU THE RAILFAN WINDOW LAST NOVENMER 1999
AND DAY AND NIGHT ALSO THE ""E"" TRAIN WITH THE OPERATOR SHOWING THE CONTROLS
OF THE R -38 IN ACTION !!
THE # 7 TAPE LASTS AS LONG A AS 3-4 HOURS LONG !! asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
salaam allah vidieos ............ ON RAILFAN VIDIEOS SECTION OF NYC SUBWAY RESOURCES !!
Uhh thats R32
ok i thought it was an r 38 on the ""E" however i did vidioetape both lines and got excellent reviews !
here i am !!!
I SHOT THE NUMBER # 7 WITH A TRIPOD THRU THE RAILFAN- WINDOW LAST NOVENMER 1999
AND DAY AND NIGHT ALSO THE ""E"" TRAIN WITH THE OPERATOR SHOWING THE CONTROLS
OF THE R -38 IN ACTION !!
THE # 7 TAPE LASTS AS LONG A AS 3-4 HOURS LONG !! asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
salaam allah vidieos ............ ON RAILFAN VIDIEOS SECTION OF NYC SUBWAY RESOURCES !!
If anyone is interested, I have a Train Dispatcher 2 .trk file on Coney Island/Stillwell Ave, from 5am to 9am
Dave
And if Dave or anyone else wants, I made a NYCTA subway car icon set for Train Dispatcher 2 -- while they are IRT cars, they will work for the other divisions. These icons are so small (36 little squares wide in a .BMP) that it's impossible to make "B" Division icons.
Steve, I tried to email you twice about those icons, and I keep on getting a "Mail Returned" ; Yes I would like them. "Blue Diesel" and Yellow Diesel" don't really cut it for the Coney Island territory.
Dave
They are on the way to you now -- IF your e-mail address is correct!!
I have an R38 asnd R40 Slant in icons thanks to Wayne!
please e-mail me your icon collection
Have you tried NXSYS, availabe on this site? It's excellent
I ask this because I'm told the MTA will be deep in debt before too long, if it isn't already, despite massive gains in ridership.
Will they have to scale back the breaks that have been given riders since Metrocards came in system wide in '97?
--will they have to eliminate unlimited weekly rides for $17 or free bus-subway and bus-bus transfers, especially if they ever do get around to building the 2nd Avenue subway and have to fund it somehow?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think the way to look at it is in reverse: everyone is ripping off the MTA.
Start with the riders. There is no reason to take back the monthly pass, or free transfers, because they work. But if prices are going to rise (and they certainly are, especially for housing) you are going to have to give the workers raises, and if you give the workers raises you need to raise the fare. Sheldon Silver is lying to us. He wants to keep down the fare, but he'll wreck the system and then move away.
Next the state. It pays for the maintenance of state roads with tax dollars, but not donwstate railroads. Given how little road space we have relative to population, we are being severely ripped off on our state tax dollars. While the roads fare better, the fact is that the state spends less than average on transportation, even grabbing tolls and dedicated transit taxes to fund other things.
Next the city. It's funding for the MTA is far less than it used to be, even without adjusting for the gains in income and inflation. At the same time, it's spending billions to rebuild the bridges while keeping them "free." Transit riders probably pay far more in NY local taxes per person than drivers (given the high incomes in Manhattan, a local property tax that discriminates against apartments, and the edge of city habit of shopping in the suburbs and opposing stores in the city). We are getting robbed.
Next the federal government. New York State has 7 percent of the U.S. population and pays 8 percent of the taxes, but gets only 5 percent of the transporation spending.
Add in the workers. TA workers have slowed productivity in some cases, but the real overpaid goldbricks are on the commuter railroads. Now transit fares are going end up being increased to pay for this largess.
Then there are all those private consultants lining up to grab billions for studies (I was told City Planning isn't getting anything -- we'd reprint the 1968 EIS and plans for them for just a few thousand), predatory contractors, and you get the picture.
Why are all these people sabotaging our future. Because they can. The Straphangers (who supposedly represent riders), the TWU (who represent workers), and the New York City Partnership (businesses who pay the taxes) generally have different interests, but they are all outraged. The News and Post have condemned the MTA captial plan, while the Times printed an op-ed comdemning it. The politicians just thumb their noses. What are we going to do about it?
Sheldon Silver -- Sounds more like recycled Hylan rhetoric -- the kind that put the subways on welfare in the first place.
Sir, passenger transport is a de facto sink hole. IF you build for rush hour capacity you have egregiously underused capacity off peak. NO system in the US can cover its capital debt load for structure and equipment out of the fare box(this includes airplanes which as we all know use airports built with taxpayer monies and located on land not subject to real estate tax)Given this reality(even if you could eliminate ALL of the bribery/featherbedding/procurement waste)the real question is how can NYC residents crowbar a fairer share of tax expenditures out of Albany.
<>
Manufacturing of one car generated more waste than the car generates in its entire life (_Asphalt Nation_, Jane Hotlz Kay, University of California Press, 1997)
By keeping people from needing to buy cars, the Subway most likely saves millions in environmental cleanup.
Many people would have to buy cars.
A new subway line will never cause the car ownership rate to change, some places will always have them, others never will.
True. I wasn't referring to the addition of one line, I was responding to the statement that passenger transport was a de facto money loser. Cost savings may occur in indirectly related areas.
dave
The point is that it is irresponsible NOT to raise the fare in line with wage increases, in order to cover operating costs. Borrowing money instead is just selling out the future.
Combining that with the cuts in city and state capital funding and no wonder the MTA is borrowing like mad.
You're right. I don't advocate a "nickel fare" dogma. Optimally the subway would pay for itself, but since it benefits the "greater good" and the "quality of life," subsidization is justified. Unfortunately, its difficult to quantize the benefits of transit in dollars and sense, so its hard to sell funding to the voting public.
(Optimally the subway would pay for itself, but since it benefits the "greater good" and the "quality of life," subsidization is
justified. Unfortunately, its difficult to quantize the benefits of transit in dollars and sense, so its hard to sell funding to the voting public).
These days, it is just as hard to convince transit riders that you get what you pay for. I'd like the see the subways (& commuter rail and PATH) break even on an auto-equivalent basis. That is, having the fare cover the cost of buying, maintaining and operating the trains, but have taxes cover the cost of the right of way like they cover the streets. We were there, but will now fall behind.
Yes, Transit should pay its way. And humongous corperations should pay high enough wages so that everyone could afford the fare high enough to operate the subway in the black. But they don't. So we pay out of taxes, while big companies pay almost no taxes. Where do you start?
[Yes, Transit should pay its way. And humongous corperations should pay high enough wages so that everyone could afford the fare high enough to operate the subway in the black. But they don't. So we pay out of taxes, while big companies pay almost no taxes. Where do you start?]
Studies show that humongous corporations actually pay significantly higher wages and benefits than smaller ones for the same work. Otherwise, it's not usually possible for a typical company to effect income redistribution. With corporate profit margins being as low as they are and wages being their major expense, just a 10% average wage increase would put many companies out of business. If we want to reduce the discrepancy between top and bottom, we need a different approach.
As to whether companies pay taxes or not, it makes little difference--corporate taxes and personal taxes are ultimately the same. The real shame I think is that the rich get by without paying much at all in the way of taxes. Among other things, the fact that a rich man's income from his long term invenstments is taxed at a lower rate than a wage earner's is I think fairly obscene.
How about lowering some executive salary packages and bonuses? I love it when to fire a guy they have to buy out his contract for a gzillion bux.
dave
[How about lowering some executive salary packages and bonuses? I love it when to fire a guy they have to buy out his contract for a gzillion bux.]
You'll get no argument from me. Executive salaries and benefits in this country are obscene. It has nothing to do with economics or the laws of supply or demand, and everything to do with executives sitting on one another's boards and voting themselves ridiculous packages.
May I clarify my position? 1. I am aware auto usage is highly subsidized. 2. I also believe that since ALMOST nothing in our society is "objectively" priced(gasoline does not reflect the cost of US armed forces deployed to support the Saudi government etc.) that the socially productive policy is to economically promote the least environmentally damaging behaviours. 3. As fare increases like sales taxes are more significant as one's income falls, fare increases are the last resort. 4. While I recognise political difficulty in forcing the overly monied to pay sufficient taxes in any manner, I still believe a genuine progressive income tax is still the most equitable for the largest portion of the entire populace. 5. It is IMHO the "economic secession" on the part of the bribing(political contributor) class which has vastly reduced its contribution to the public coffers (mail order/internet no sales tax, reduction of max income tax rates by more than half over last 25 years etc.) which has constrained the ability of our urban cores to provide necessary services for all. 6. As long as we have Balkanized 'planning' allowing low rise office parks further and further out to sop up real estyate and remove well paying jobs from urban cores auto usage will increase. 7. So unreconstructed socialist that I am, I favor penalizing the edge city developers rather than rewarding them. If we made the admittedly Herculean effort to re envigorate our cities and made the offices stay in town, transit might be less of a stepchild. Finally, in my ideal dream world the fare boxes for public transit would ALL be in museums. How about nickel turnstiles on every sidewalk? Sidewalks don't pay for themselves!
Remember how socialism ended up: "From each according to their stupidity, to each according to their greed."
so maybe you should consider 1 healthcare in Canada--it works, and 2 in general France, Germany, Sweden et al have a fair number of functional 'socialist'endeavors including mass transit. I am not suggesting soviet economics, but I reiterate since it is economically IMPOSSIBLE to operate a subway system at a profit given the realities--why shaft the majority of users by charging a higher fare? Farebox recovery--which is a slippery figure at best hovers in the 20-40 % range--o why not keep the fares low enough to encourage usage? The more passengers particularly in non rush hours the more 'credible' the system.
Mass transit cannot run at a profit because because if fares were raised high enough to allow this, people would flock to the heavily subsidized competition. Stop subsidies for both roads and transit.
[Mass transit cannot run at a profit because because if fares were raised high enough to allow this, people would flock to the heavily subsidized competition. Stop subsidies for both roads and transit.]
Absolutely! And privatize transit while you're at it.
Okay, I'll bite. Privatize transit? Does this mean break the unions pay min. wage? Does this mean sell the bonds on the non tax free municipals market at roughly double the % interest rate? Does this mean fire the civil service non'agreement workers and pay the new hires at min wage? Would a private system magically get cheaper electricty, or diesel for the buses? Would the new cars/buses suddenly be vastly cheaper? Will the health/retirement programs evaporate? Just where will the day in day out savings come from to pay the dividends to the stockholders? And if all of these imaginary savings do not materialize just who will be riding at a $5-$6 fare? Today farebox recovery is 20-40% depending on the system. Where is that other 60-80% going to magically appear from? Note. I am well aware that there is serious corruption at all stages in these enterprises, but not enough IMHO to equal the amount of subsidy currently supplied from taxes . Local garbage collection where I live is a wonderful example of the private monopoly just as expensiuve as the city run system in the next town, and service as lousy as any stereotype would suggest.
The fare will be $6, and fuel will be more expensive, it won't be subsidized anymore.
As for wages, if the company can attract competent workers with a minimum wage (it can't), then it can charge that much. Minimum wage is the most USELESS law. Sure, the government should guarantee that people get a livable wage, but minimum wage is no such thing. I wonder if those teenaged workers really do have a government lobby.
[The fare will be $6, and fuel will be more expensive, it won't be subsidized anymore.
As for wages, if the company can attract competent workers with a minimum wage (it can't), then it can charge that much. Minimum wage is the most USELESS law. Sure, the government should guarantee that people get a livable wage, but minimum wage is no such thing. I wonder if those teenaged workers really do have a government lobby.]
In the case of the subway, with its high farebox recovery ratio and extraordinary opportunities to increase efficiency, the fare will be what it is today.
There's a big difference between minimum wage and what transit workers are paid. You can't hire an electrician or a plumber or a machinist for minimum wage, union or no; in the NYC subway wihout the union salaries would go up for skilled employees and managers, down for unskilled ones.
It _might_ be possible to privatize some transit systems without resorting to drastic means. Sure, if all the workers got the minimum wage, farebox recovery ratios would be far better, but that's of course impossible (on both political and economic grounds). But most transit systems, especially the New York subway, _could_ very well operate with much smaller staffs. OPTO trains (even ZPTO with proper technology) and unstaffed, MVM-equipped stations are entirely within the realm of possibility, and given enough time it probably would be possible to make the necessary staff reductions through attrition. Moreover, if a transit system were run more like a business and less like a social service agency, it would be possible to drop lightly used services rather than keep them running for the sake of a few transit-dependent users.
I'm obviously not saying that drastic changes like this would be easy, or even that they're desirable. Transit subsidies are a relatively minor part of most municipal and state budgets, and I consider them a worthwhile part. But that's not to say that farebox recovery ratios can't be improved.
Privatizers never define their terms. The fact is that civil service and privitization have the same issues. If you allow either employees or contractors to be hired and fired at management discretion, you open the door to corruption. But the alternative -- lots of legalistic procedures and hiring workers who pass tests and contractors who bid low -- opens the door to those who know how to work the system, and fail to perform.
Any monopoly rips you off -- public, private, non-profit. De-unifying the A and B divisions and having them compete might bring more innovation, whether the division remained in public hands or were privatized.
The fact is that subsidies to mass transit benifit riders and non-riders alike. For every subway car in service during the AM rush hour, 15 automobiles are taken off the road. That means that 60,000 fewer cars every day on the highways. That means 60,000 less cars competing for fewer and fewer parking spaces. That means 60,000 fewer automobiles polluting the air we breath.
Mass transit subsidies would be necessary regardless of whether the subways were run as a quasi-government agency or a private entity. The only difference is that if it were run as a private entity, the subsidy would go into the pockets of the owners and stockholders instead of the workers.
[Mass transit subsidies would be necessary regardless of whether the subways were run as a quasi-government agency or a private entity. The only difference is that if it were run as a private entity, the subsidy would go into the pockets of the owners and stockholders instead of the workers.]
Not true. How much profit do you think a company actually makes? A few percent, much of which is reinvested. What kind of dividends do you think stockholders actually receive? None, in most cases. Now compare that to the people who feed off a government service--the politicians and assorted hacks. To the extent that some government employees earn more for a given amount of productive work, to the extent that some riders ride for less than the cost of the ride, *they're earning it out of the pockets of the taxpayers*--and that means mostly you and me, because the rich don't pay their fair share and unless the public gets a lot smarter they aren't about to.
Funny how people are always griping about high taxes while failing to recognize that Uncle Ferd, who's earning a pension from the Fire Department at age 44, has something to do with it. And I've read that most people think politicians are a bunch of crooks, but don't believe that of their *own* senators and representatives. Go figure.
"Now compare that to the people who feed off a government service--the politicians and assorted hacks. To the extent that some government employees earn more for a given amount of productive work, to the extent that some riders ride for less than the cost of the ride, *they're earning it out of the pockets of the taxpayers*--"
First,I don't know too many people who would invest in a company with virtually no growth potential (at least in the short term) and no dividents. If you do, I'd like to meet them.
Second, several years ago the TA brought in a bunch of 'professional managers' from the outside. None of the ones in operations made the cut. There may be one or two in a support function but they are not setting the world on fire.
Third, and I really take issue here. Every once in a while I talk to people in other related fields about possible employment. Invariably the offer is for more $$$$ with less responsibility than I have now. Hence, I don't know how you can say that municipal workers are paid more or are less productive than their private sector counterparts. In my division we get many ex-Local-3 members. They say the money isn't as good but eating regularly is a hard habit to break.
"First,I don't know too many people who would invest in a company with virtually no growth potential (at least in the short term) and no dividents. If you do, I'd like to meet them."
Nearly everybody investing today. Nary a single firm offers dividends.
Do they also offer no growth? If so, I could offer stock in my savings account with the same potentials.
It's all based on the risability of the shares themselves. Would people want to invest in your savings account?
It's all about popularity, if people want the company, then the price goes up. People have to want it for someone to want it.
[Do they also offer no growth? If so, I could offer stock in my savings account with the same potentials.]
People invest in companies on the basis of their expectation of the stock's future value. Over the long term, a stock's value reflects a company's profits and the price/earnings ratio that's prevalent in a given field, but over the short term it oscillates according to other factors, such as interest rates, the state of the economy (the market tends to anticipate the overall economy by about six months), and other factors, many of them technical and arcane and having more to do with investor behavior than anything else.
> In my division we get many ex-Local-3 members. They say the money isn't as good but eating regularly is a hard habit to
break.
What's local 3? Can you explain?
Electrician's Union.
I can vouch for the pay, at least in an aggregate sense, from Bureau of Economic Analysis data.
In the U.S., local government workers and private sector workers earn about the save, although goveernment workers get fat pensions. In NYC, local government workers earn far less than private sector workers, in the rest of New York State they earn far more. Compare the TA with the LIRR, the NYC Cops with the Nassau Cops, teachers, etc. Elsewhere in the state they are overpaid, in the city they are underpaid, if the national public-private ratios mean anything.
The real "jobs programs" are government employment upstate and in the subuurbs -- and "non-profit" employment in the city, not government employment in the city.
[I can vouch for the pay, at least in an aggregate sense, from Bureau of Economic Analysis data.
In the U.S., local government workers and private sector workers earn about the save, although goveernment workers get fat pensions. In NYC, local government workers earn far less than private sector workers, in the rest of New York State they earn far more. Compare the TA with the LIRR, the NYC Cops with the Nassau Cops, teachers, etc. Elsewhere in the state they are overpaid, in the city they are underpaid, if the national public-private ratios mean anything.
The real "jobs programs" are government employment upstate and in the subuurbs -- and "non-profit" employment in the city, not government employment in the city.]
An informative post as usual, but as I said elsewhere I think you have to look at worker utilization as well. As Giuliani pointed out some time back, NYC could pay cops as much as Nassau County if they weren't doubled up, and once you add retirement after 20 years at half pay to the picture that $50,000 salary starts to look more like $150,000, perhaps $200,000 if other perks are added in. People would be beating down the door to become NYC police officers if the City offered a standard employment package at $200,000 a year!
[First,I don't know too many people who would invest in a company with virtually no growth potential (at least in the short term) and no dividents. If you do, I'd like to meet them.]
Making a profit of say 10% doesn't mean a company doesn't have growth potential. Many smaller companies routinely reinvest all of their profits, and with borrowing in times of loose money (like now) they can grow as rapidly as their business allows.
As to dividends, they're largely a thing of the past. Even among the older companies that offer them, the amounts are low. Check the stock tables. If you think about it, you'll see that it doesn't really matter, because on the average, the value of a stock depends on a company's profitablility. So the stockholder's holdings increase proportionally, without a contribution from the company!
Another way of thinking about it is that Wall Street is essentially a gambling casino for the prosperous--the amount of capital that actually flows to companies from stock offerings is less than half of the amount spent on brokers' commissions alone.
[Second, several years ago the TA brought in a bunch of 'professional managers' from the outside. None of the ones in operations made the cut. There may be one or two in a support function but they are not setting the world on fire.]
That could mean anything. Were they good, bad, experienced, inexperienced? In any case, it seems to me that the problem with government isn't the quality of people in management--I've known many fine people in government service--but rather the political process, the bureaucracy, and the lack of pressure from competition and the need to make a profit, always present in business.
[Third, and I really take issue here. Every once in a while I talk to people in other related fields about possible employment. Invariably the offer is for more $$$$ with less responsibility than I have now. Hence, I don't know how you can say that municipal workers are paid more or are less productive than their private sector counterparts. In my division we get many ex-Local-3 members. They say the money isn't as good but eating regularly is a hard habit to break.]
I don't know that you can necessarily extrapolate from your own experience--sample size of one, and all that. In general, managers and skilled people earn less in government, unskilled people earn more. But there are always exceptions.
Then too, it's not necessarily a matter of how hard one works. I doubt that a conductor or TO would work any harder for a private company than he does for the MTA--but there would probably be fewer of him to do the same thing, because trains would be OPTO moving towards ZPTO. Similarly, driving a patrol car alone doesn't involve much more work than doing it with a partner, but productivity is cut in half. There's also the "union slug" phenomenon, which comes about because it's virtually impossible to fire incompetent or lazy or dishonest workers. The guys who work hard end up taking up the slack for the guys who don't. In my own union experience, anyway.
"because on the average, the value of a stock depends on a company's profitablility."
Tell that to all the .COMs that never made a dime.
[Tell that to all the .COMs that never made a dime. ]
Anticipated future profitability, market share.
Arti
Of course, most people (well, maybe it's just the people that matter) know these companies will never make a dime. It's just a pyramid scheme, some people will bail out on time in favor of the other people, and then someone will be left holding the bag when the balloon pops.
(Of course, most people (well, maybe it's just the people that matter) know these companies will never make a dime. It's just a pyramid scheme, some people will bail out on time in favor of the other people, and then someone will be left holding the bag when the balloon pops).
This is sort of off topic, but there is a tangent I'll tie back into. I think the whole dot-com bubble and collapse is driven by people taking bets on the future of the internet. Will a few mega-corporations dominate by staking out the territory first and make mega-profits, like Microsoft in PC software, the orignial three networks when broadcast television dominated, or Time Warner? Or will the internet destroy economies of scale, allowing tens of thousands of small businesses -- most of them too small to be public corporations -- to divide the market. Will Amazon.com become THE bookseller? Or will the internet allow a tiny bookstore run by a middle-income proprietor to cater to a tiny niche (like railroad books) with global reach.
I think this site is the future of the internet. You'll have hobbyists going into the information business, and people running small businesses out of their homes and earning a nice -- but not massive -- living, as a result of the way the internet cuts the cost of exchanging information and doing transactions. The only thing that can change that is if content providers grab the telecommunications infrastructure, then charge an extra toll to their competitors. This is a real threat. I'm afraid of Time Warner, not Uncle Bill.
I'm afraid of Time Warner
Larry, I think we'll all come out OK on this one. The government has already made it abundantly clear that, although they intend to regulate things as little as possible, they will not tolerate a monopoly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Of course, most people (well, maybe it's just the people that matter) know these companies will never make a dime. It's just a pyramid scheme, some people will bail out on time in favor of the other people, and then someone will be left holding the bag when the balloon pops.]
Some of these companies will be profitable. A bubble exaggerates the stock price of what may or may not be a fundamentally sound business. Some of the dot coms are scams, to be sure, but others, like Ebay, have what will ultimately prove sound business models.
[["because on the average, the value of a stock depends on a company's profitablility."]
Tell that to all the .COMs that never made a dime.]
I may not have phrased this well--it's generally said "over the long term, the value of a company's stock reflects its profitability." These bubble stocks have not been around long enough for this rule to yield results--they're value still reflects expectations of earnings or, more precisely, expectation that the price of the stock will keep going up! Look at how profitable those companies are a few years from now, and run the average then.
[Privatizers never define their terms. The fact is that civil service and privitization have the same issues. If you allow either employees or contractors to be hired and fired at management discretion, you open the door to corruption. But the alternative -- lots of legalistic procedures and hiring workers who pass tests and contractors who bid low -- opens the door to those who know how to work the system, and fail to perform.
Any monopoly rips you off -- public, private, non-profit. De-unifying the A and B divisions and having them compete might bring more innovation, whether the division remained in public hands or were privatized.]
While I agree that competition is desireable and necessary for maximum efficiency, I think the record shows that even government-regulated monopolies are more effective at delivering service than goernment agencies. One example I frequently use--the American telephone monopoly in its various incarnations vs. the European government telephone agencies, which offer famously bad service at insanely high prices.
There is really very little corruption in the hiring process in private industry as long as unions aren't involved. Most companies fire incompetent workers; some fire politically inconvenient ones. But one of the lessons I've learned over the years is that in many cases its better to put up with a degree of arbitrary local decision making than to impose a bureaucratic or legal solution. Courts and arbitrators are biased ("That judge always favors the business/employee" is something you hear with surprising frequency) and out of touch. People who get fired in a competitive environment typically get new and comparable jobs, or jobs at a level they can handle. And people who get fired for political reasons are almost inevitably happier in their new jobs. . . .
[There is really very little corruption in the hiring process in private industry as long as unions aren't involved. Most companies fire incompetent workers; some fire politically inconvenient ones. But one of the lessons I've learned over the years is that in many cases its better to put up with a degree of arbitrary local decision making than to impose a bureaucratic or legal solution. Courts and arbitrators are biased ("That judge always favors the business/employee" is something you hear with surprising frequency) and out of touch. People who get fired in a competitive environment typically get new and comparable jobs, or jobs at a level they can handle. And people who get fired for political reasons are almost inevitably happier in their new jobs. . . .]
I'd say that "unjustified" firings are actually more common in the public than private sector. In a competitive business, employees who ruffle a lot of managerial feathers are generally safe, as long as they do their jobs competently. Private businesses are more concerned with performance than with popularity. It's in the public sector where you'll see competent workers re-engineered for not kissing the appropriate posteriors.
In a competitive business, employees who ruffle a lot of managerial feathers are generally safe, as long as they do their jobs competently.
Regarding private industry, that's the key phrase - in a competitive business. When the business becomes non-competitive, even for a time, watch out! I learned that the hard way when IBM became non-competitive in the '90s and, true to form, I ticked off middle management. When they downsized, I was on the list, despite years of very high performance ratings and due, rating-wise, for promotion. Now I work for another corporate behemoth but I've been somewhat more careful with how I treat the next couple of levels of management above me - I still don't hesitate to tell them they're idiots when they need to hear it, I just make them think that they came to that conclusion all by themselves - so I wasn't directly affected by the recent cuts in my organization.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One of the mistakes liberal economists made was assuming because the market did something badly (ie. market failure) the government could do it better. Anyone who believes that in general the private sector has enlightened personnel policies is out of their mind.
How about these private sector policies:
1) Offer someone a job at a given salary (say $50,000), then after that person has left a prior job and moved his family tell him he was mistaken, the salary is $35,000.
2) Agree to hire several people who make a committment, then make up your mind who to take later.
3) Order an employee to falsify accounting forms to overstate profits, violating SEC law. After he refuses, fire him just before Christmas.
4) Pocket income and social security tax with-holding money, fold up the company, and abscond with it. Have the government go after the former employees, who owe the tax.
5) Require hourly employees to work extra off the clock.
6) Require employees to do work for a manager on company time.
This is just some of the crap that has happened to people I know. And that's just employee fraud. There is an epidemic of financial fraud, consumer fraud, etc.
The only advantage the private sector has over the public sector is bankrupcy, which weeds out some bad apples eventually.
[One of the mistakes liberal economists made was assuming because the market did something badly (ie. market failure) the government could do it better. Anyone who believes that in general the private sector has enlightened personnel policies is out of their mind.
How about these private sector policies:
1) Offer someone a job at a given salary (say $50,000), then after that person has left a prior job and moved his family tell him he was mistaken, the salary is $35,000.
2) Agree to hire several people who make a committment, then make up your mind who to take later.
3) Order an employee to falsify accounting forms to overstate profits, violating SEC law. After he refuses, fire him just before Christmas.
4) Pocket income and social security tax with-holding money, fold up the company, and abscond with it. Have the government go after the former employees, who owe the tax.
5) Require hourly employees to work extra off the clock.
6) Require employees to do work for a manager on company time.
This is just some of the crap that has happened to people I know. And that's just employee fraud. There is an epidemic of financial fraud, consumer fraud, etc.
The only advantage the private sector has over the public sector is bankrupcy, which weeds out some bad apples eventually.]
You call those "policies," but they strike me as illegalities and abuses. It's no secret that at the lower level (and sometimes at the higher) private companies frequently exploit there workers. Businessmen are, by and large, either assholes or unsuccessful, and in capitalism the worker is a commodity and used as such. Nevertheless, to say that the only advantage of the private over the public sector is bankruptcy is to overlook the fact that the much higher efficiency of private operations contributes more to the standard of living than the exploitation of some workers takes away from it, as experiments in socialism have demonstrated again and again. Private industry is driven not just by a fear of bankruptcy, but a desire for profits. That same desire exists among inviduals in the public sector, but it can be exercised only through corruption, and so the public sector attracts a certain type of bottom feeder less often found in private business.
And for all that I abhor him and his products, I'd rather be stuck with a Bill Gates than a government software monopoly (choke!). Sure, the government operation wouldn't exploit its workers--but can you imagine the results?
[Okay, I'll bite. Privatize transit? Does this mean break the unions pay min. wage? Does this mean sell the bonds on the non tax free municipals market at roughly double the % interest rate? Does this mean fire the civil service non'agreement workers and pay the new hires at min wage? Would a private system magically get cheaper electricty, or diesel for the buses? Would the new cars/buses suddenly be vastly cheaper? Will the health/retirement programs evaporate? Just where will the day in day out savings come from to pay the dividends to the stockholders? And if all of these imaginary savings do not materialize just who will be riding at a $5-$6 fare? Today farebox recovery is 20-40% depending on the system. Where is that other 60-80% going to magically appear from? Note. I am well aware that there is serious corruption at all stages in these enterprises, but not enough IMHO to equal the amount of subsidy currently supplied from taxes . Local garbage collection where I live is a wonderful example of the private monopoly just as expensiuve as the city run system in the next town, and service as lousy as any stereotype would suggest.]
A number of points:
-Most publicly run transit systems are astoundingly inefficient. The NYC subway system for example has one manager for ever four employees and is overstaffed at the rank and file level by a factor of two or three with work rules that prohibit employees who work on Philips head screws from turning straight blade ones. And NYC is far from the worst, now that the days of retirement after 20 years are past. Since labor costs make up the lion's share of transit expenses eliminating that type of pork would eliminate the deficit.
Among other things, a private system like the NY subway would have gone to OPTO long ago and be in the process of converting to ZPTO.
Whether that would mean union busting is something I can't answer. I'm personally in favor of offering a guarantee that all existing employees will retain employment at their existing pay grade with a decent raise while throwing out most of the work rules and uncompetitive benefits. That of course is an intermediate procedure that would leave even more surplus people than there are now. I doubt that a private business would be as kind. One thing's for sure: we need a transit agency, not a cushy jobs program.
-Studies show that it costs government in NY State 3x as much as private industry to build a comparable structure. We, the public, pay. $4.8 billion dollars for a 1 mile extension of the LIRR to GCT. $1 billion for a *study* of building an inadequate 2 track Lexington Avenue subway that's already been studied to death (and partly built) at an estimate cost of $8.4 billion, which is $1.4 billion more than it cost to build and equip the Channel tunnel and $.4 billion more than the estimate cost of sending a four man crew to Mars.
There are contractors that specialize in ripping off the government--in fact, most government contractors learn to think that way, or they can't compete. That means campaign contributions (which become a politician's personal property after they retire from office, leaving them with millions in funny money, amazing how many people don't know that), "consulting fees," bids that are bloated by a standard amount. Among the bottom feeders it means out and out kickbacks and substandard concrete.
-Almost the entire NYC subway system was built in the 40 years before privatization; the system has gotten smaller in the 60 years since. In fact, there's no evidence that government can or will build any significant subway project unless it's a misguided and uneconomical effort to put its private competition out of business like Mayor Hylan's IND, which remains underutilized to this day.
-Because people pay actual costs for services offered by private business, and because businesses go bust if they don't make a profit, capitalism is far and away the most efficient means of delivering the services that people actually want. e.g., are willing to pay for. Government doesn't play by those rules. Consider the federal law that caps transit aid going to any state, meaning the two states with the most transit users, New York and California. That law has the sole effect of building transit where *people don't need it.* It's one of many ridiculous inefficiencies built into government.
The 63rd Street LIRR tunnel was built years ago. Now they're planning to resume work on it. By the time it's done, *something like 50 years will have elapsed,* during which time billions of dollars of capital will have been sitting idle. The Port Authority just spent $1.5 billion building a train to nowhere. The Second Avenue subway has had tunnel segments sitting idle for years, the Manhattan Bridge has been "under repair" for longer than some people on this group have been alive, etc. etc. etc. Any private business that pulled pranks like that would go bankrupt almost instantly.
-There are still *incandescent lights* in the subway. Incandescent lights! The TA should spend $1 billion and hire a super.
At least they don't have coal fired boilers like the schools . . .
-While I don't believe in subsidies, I do believe that one can and should charge pollution fees of automobiles and divert that towards transit, pay for unfunded mandates like the ADA stuff or half fares for the elderly (an idiot program if there ever was one--why should an old person who lives on Park Avenue get half fare, while a family struggling to raise their kids on minimum wage pays for it?), and subsidize transit on an equal footing with roads, which in New York State anyway receive 28% of their funding from general revenues. That would make more transit systems economical.
Otherwise, if some transit systems, even after the pork was gone, had to charge too much for people to take them, so what? Then they aren't offering a useful service. Who do people think is paying for their heavily subsidized ride? For that useless employee? People is--all of us.
NYC Transit does not have one manager for every four "employees." More like one out of every 15 employees is a member of management.
David
"Most publicly run transit systems are astoundingly inefficient. The NYC subway system for example has one manager for ever four employees and is overstaffed at the rank and file level by a factor of two or three with work rules that prohibit employees who work on Philips head screws from turning straight blade ones."
One thing about long rambling posts like yours, you don't need to look to far to find a glaring mistake. In the current TA/TWU contract, this (the underlined segment)is no longer true. All of the various crafts, Car Maintainer A, Car Maintainer C, Car Maintainer E, Car Maintainer F, Mechanical Maintainer C and Car Inspector have been unified under the title of car inspector. Hence jobs requiring employees in 3 titled crafts can now be done by just one.
BTW: I work at a facility where there are approximately 170 hourly employees and 20 supervisors but just 4 managers. I guess Larry Reuter has yet to hear about your 1 manager for 4 employee theory.
["Most publicly run transit systems are astoundingly inefficient. The NYC subway system for example has one manager for ever four employees and is overstaffed at the rank and file level by a factor of two or three with work rules that prohibit employees who work on Philips
head screws from turning straight blade ones."]
[One thing about long rambling posts like yours, you don't need to look to far to find a glaring mistake. In the current TA/TWU contract, this (the underlined segment)is no longer true. All of the various crafts, Car Maintainer A, Car Maintainer C, Car Maintainer E, Car Maintainer F, Mechanical Maintainer C and Car Inspector have been unified under the title of car inspector. Hence jobs requiring employees in 3 titled crafts can now be done by just one.]
Josh may have been wrong on one minor point - and I suspect that the screwdriver remark was basically scarcasm - but he's totally on the money when it comes to the TA's overstaffing. Keeping every station staffed 24/7 is beyond ludicrous. As I've said over and over, PATH manages just fine with unstaffed stations. And how about the situation at the uptown entrance to the F at 14th Street? MVM's were installed a couple of weeks ago at this entrance, which also serves the L at 6th Avenue. As of last Friday, there still was an employee on duty by the MVM's, ready to assist anyone who needed help - a rather pointless task, given that using a MVM is a complete no-brainer.* And not to mention the fact that a token clerk was sitting in his booth maybe 15 feet away, and another one was nearby at the L's turnstiles. At least the employee by the MVM's gave me a Metrocard holder with a Stephen Crane Poetry in Motion quotation.
[Josh may have been wrong on one minor point - and I suspect that the screwdriver remark was basically scarcasm]
LOL, the fact that people are taking it seriously says a lot. It's a bit scary, actually!
[All of the various crafts, Car Maintainer A, Car Maintainer C, Car Maintainer E, Car Maintainer F, Mechanical Maintainer C and Car Inspector have been unified under the title of car inspector. Hence jobs requiring employees in 3 titled crafts can now be done by just one.]
LOL, you've beem working for the MTA too long--you don't know what you've just said.
As to factual matters, you're quite right--I checked the contract, and contary to my assertion, both straight blade and Philips head screws can now be turned by any Screw Installer Grade 3. What's more, Screw Installers Grade 4 can now rotate spline and hex head screws, though counter-clockwise rotation can be done only by a Screw Uninstaller of equivalent grade.
Wonder what happenes if a Screw Installer makes a mistake and starts "installing" a wrong type screw. Does he have to fill out a report and then the manager calls appropriate Screw Uninstaller.
Arti
[Wonder what happenes if a Screw Installer makes a mistake and starts "installing" a wrong type screw. Does he have to fill out a report and then the manager calls appropriate Screw Uninstaller.
Arti]
Well, there's the example of the guy at a place I used to work who checked two movies a night instead of one. That meant that management, which naturally never bothered to show up during the night shift, caught on to the fact that guys could screen two movies a night. He was attacked by a guy wielding a tire iron & had to find another job.
My mistake. I thought you had raised a serious issue and wanted a serious reply. Forgive me for wasting my time.
But that only applies to screws with a right hand thread, counter clockwise turning of left hand thread screws must be done by a screw installer
> That means campaign contributions (which become a politician's personal property after they retire from office, leaving them with millions in funny money, amazing how many people don't know that),
Far be it from me to defend the current state of campaign finance. But this is no longer true on the federal level. Hasn't been true since about 1992.
[Far be it from me to defend the current state of campaign finance. But this is no longer true on the federal level. Hasn't been true since about 1992.]
I'm glad to know that. At least something has improved!
[Sir, passenger transport is a de facto sink hole. IF you build for rush hour capacity you have egregiously underused capacity off peak. NO system in the US can cover its capital debt load for structure and equipment out of the fare box(this includes airplanes which as we all know use airports built with taxpayer monies and located on land not subject to real estate tax)]
This includes highways, too, which in spite of all the anti-transit yapping to the contrary receive a significant contribution from general revenues.
"and the edge of city habit of shopping in the suburbs and opposing stores in the city). We are getting robbed."
That has to do with the failure of the city to support good stores.
This is just another one of those things for which the city is stupid.
[Why are all these people sabotaging our future. Because they can. The Straphangers (who supposedly represent riders), the TWU (who represent workers), and the New York City Partnership (businesses who pay the taxes) generally have different interests, but they are all outraged. The News and Post have condemned the MTA captial plan, while the Times printed an op-ed comdemning it.]
They did? I seem to have missed it.
(I seem to have missed it).
Yep, the News, Post and Times all printed op-ed pieces by Kiley of the NYC Partnership condemming the MTA plan. The Daily News added an editorial blasting it the day it passed, calling the Second Avenue Subway "the train to fantasyland" because they took all the money away -- leaving the MTA deep in debt -- but still promised the Second Avenue. The Times lead story, in contrast, was "Second Avenue Subway Approved."
[The Times lead story, in contrast, was "Second Avenue Subway Approved."]
LOL, that's the Times for you.
In Greller's subway cars book, there's an R44 (I could have the number wrong) with a circled orange V displayed on the front, in the same style of subway signage we're familiar with.
Are they still printing V's on the roll signs today, just in case?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The "V" Line is planned out for the 63rd Street Extension Line. This information was passed down to me about 3 days ago. Don't know how concrete this is because at one point I heard that the "Q" was going to make the extension and now I'm hearing the "V"
R142 Boi 2K
This is either asked about or alluded to every other week.
YES, a definitive service plan will be implemented for 63rd Street.
NO, the definitive plan has not been finalized yet.
They don't know what they'll do. They have narrowed the choices down to V and Q. Maybe there will be both for a short while to see what is used more (Q via B'way, V via 6th)
Henry - better colors for your letters:
For Broadway: font color=FFD720
For 6th Avenue: font color=FF6820
They haven't made up their minds as to which letter to use, "V" or "Q", both of which are on the rollsigns.
They have "W" too, for the B'way Astoria-Whitehall rush hour Short Line.
Wayne
I've been told that V is on all signs.
Not sure if it's on the Eastern Division R40M/R42 cars. I've seen it on Slant R40, R68, R68A, R32 and R38.
Wayne
Yes, they are on the R42/40M cars as well.
It may even be in the electronic signs. I once saw the following reading on an R46 laid up on the Hillside Avenue express tracks...
T CONEY ISLAND
T WEST END LOCAL
...so obviously some allowances have been made. If something as unlikely as the T is in there, then V is probably there, too, as well as several other things.
Of course, the R-32s and R-38s can display the V on their pixel signs.
Is there a place where I could copy a circled orange "V" on this site --Its the only letter I need to spell out my name in route letters..
Dave
Here is your Orange "V" in the flesh, lol!
Enjoy!
R142 Boi 2K
AOL Screen Name: MTA Boy 2000
www.transitalk.com
BTW, why WOULD the V be orange? It could just as well be yellow, like the Q, if it'll be on 6th Avenue and Queens Blvd.
www.forgotten-ny.com
If it's Yellow, then it means BROADWAY. The "Q" has seen service both on Broadway (yellow) (its original route, since its origins were in the "QB"), and 6th Avenue (orange).
Queens Boulevard does not have an assigned trunk line color.
Wayne
There was also a Q back in the 60s before Chrystie St.
All trunk line colors refer to the lines they use in Manhattan, except the G of course. No outer boro subway line has it's own, unique color.
Which is somewhat stupid, as the Rockaway Shuttle is shown in blue, but never ventures onto the 8th Ave line.
That's a valid point. I think it has to do with the fact that since the A and C both run along 8th Ave., they figured they'd keep it consistent. Believe it or not, my Hagstrom's subway map from the mid-60s has an "8th Ave. line" marking for the Fulton St. line beyond Euclid Ave., and "Rockaway Line" where it runs along Cross Bay Blvd. There is an insert on the map with the entire Rockaway portion shown, and there it's labeled, "8th Ave. line".
04/20/2000
[BTW, why WOULD the V be orange? It could just as well be yellow, like the Q, if it'll be on 6th Avenue and Queens Blvd]
Maybe because of the way it's printed on the R-32 & 38 side route roll signs:
(V)...VIA..6th..AVENUE
Bill Newkirk
I had a chance to roll a R40 Sign through and through. And here is what I saw. What is the "W"? Are these on all cars on the B Division or just some?
R142 Boi 2K
The Numbers is what I saw on a R62A on the Times Square Shuttle!
R142 Boi 2K
I wonder why that roll sign of R40 had "W" in brown circle I thought it was yellow and the shape is suppose to be diamond do you know why is like that.
Actually it was a diamond, BUT it was brown. May have been the mylar curtain wearing out. I haven't perfected my diamond graphic yet. lol!
R142 Boi 2K
I thought W was "Whitehall." How could a train run under Nassau street and terminate at Whitehall St?
I've seen the yellow W-diamond on R68/R68A's. It's clearly a Broadway Line allowance.
R 32s too. I saw an N train signed as a diamond W Astoria/Bway
There is no brown-circled "W" sign on any car. Most cars carry the yellow diamond W, reserved for an Astoria-Bway rush hour local. However, some cars carry a brown diamond R (old Nassau/4th Ave special), as well as a diamond J, reserved for a Jamaica/Nassau/Brighton (old QJ) route.
I also think there is a diamond M sign, meant for the West End rush hour service, but I've never seen it used.
I can't make a diamond symbol yet! But this car had a brown "W". But I also stated that the mylar curtain just maybe warn out the color faded off to a brown. But it definately looked brown.
R142 Boi 2K
I've seen yellow diamond W's on R40 Slant side signs several times. But never a brown one. What I have seen are brown circle N's on some of the Slant R40 front signs.
I think it's just that the Yellow wears out to a brown! On some cars you can see the yellow-brown transition in the making. Which lead me to believe that was a brown "W" I saw.
R142 Boi 2K
I've seen an ORANGE circle "N" in a Slant R40, it's car #4320. Never saw any brown "N"s. If you ever see one, please make note of the car number, if you can.
Wayne
I saw once a BROWN circle "N" in a Slant R40 in the back of the route sign but I couldn't make out the car # because it was leaving the station I really saw this at Queensboro Plaza last year (1999). If I see another BROWN circle "N" I will let you know. But I wonder if on the R68 you could see BROWN and ORANGE "N" circle. if you know write to me
I will alert you to the car numbers if I see any wayward or off-color
"N" signs; however, the Slants have been few and far between on the "N" lately; twenty-eight of their fleet have been sent to Eastern Division (the "L"), and now it seems the only Southern Division line which has Slant R40s is the "Q".
The Orange "N" in car #4320 was the front end route marker. It had a white letter, as if it were a "B", "D" or "Q". I have seen "W"s and even "V"s in the side destination signs. Most of the time I see "W"s upside down on the outside of the car (the reverse shows a properly-positioned "N" on the inside).
Where in the car was the brown "N" you saw - the front end destination sign or a side destination sign?
Wayne
Well I've got this book(Under the sidewalks of New York) with a picture on the cover an "N" train of R44s or R46's with an orange N sign.
Perhaps these trains are capable of having orange N train signs?
Even Brian Cudahy, during his ride on the Sea Beach in the epilogue of the original edition, refers to an orange and white N displayed on the front end sign of the train he was on.
Yup,
"Outside the cab he checked the head end sign; an orange and white "N" was correctly displayed"
This was an R32 train. Ironic that the cover also has the N in orange, this time on the newer R44/46 equipment.
If this is true the N wasn't always yellow, but orange at one time, most likely the late 70s when the book was published. It also ran express in Manhattan via Manhattan bridge south side and broadway express, and terminated at 57/7.
Anybody remember the "N" train in the late 70s?
Good Day
I am sure that someone has asked this before
..
Does anyone have a Service Pattern Listing for the W,V,Z,10 ,11
Thanks
Steve
The 10 would be the same as the <5>.
The 11 would be the same as the <7>.
The W would go from Astoria to Whitehall St.
Not sure about the V.
The Z is already in existance.
And the #8 would be the same as the Diamond 6.
The "V" is anybody's guess right now. Saying it would serve stations between 47th-50th Street and B'way-Lafayette as a 6th Avenue Local would be a safe bet.
Wayne
One letter service that was almost used was P. The cars up to the R-38's, when the where overhalled have all the letters of the alphabet. P is on a white circle with no other markings is found at the end of the roll sign. The P was going to be a special service operating between Jamica Center (Jamaica line) to 34 Street/8 Avenue operating express on the Broadwy Brooklyn Line. This was suppost to be used during last two impending Long Island Railroad strikes which would have interrupted service. Since there where no strikes the service was never used. The cars where to be made up of 8 R-32's to be put in from East New York Yard in the moring and Jamaica Yard in the afternoon Jamaica Yard was to have transfered the extra cars for that service to East New York Yard.
These were AmTrak strikes. AmTrak owns Penn Station, if they strike, it's closed. Why would you need to run a train from Jamaica when LIRR is not going there?
How would they travel-Broadway brooklyn to where to switch ?
There's a track switch before Bowery where it can get to the Houston St line (F), then at the big West 4th St maze, it can switch to the 8th Ave line to 34 St.
When the BMT was mulling over the use of letters instead of numbers, wasn't the "P" considered for the Culver to replace the #5?
I don't see why they don't use the "P" for something - even if folks make salty, silly puns out of it (they can do the same thing with the #2 train, can't they?)
P.S. the Mets have just taken the lead, 6-5 on a bases loaded Walk. (9:59PM).
Let's go METS!
wayne
"P" was used on the 3/1996 map- black in a clear ("white") background to indicate park and ride lots.
I alaso think Steve (Train Dude)told us it was to be for Special service during a possible special Non-Stop to Penn during the last possible LIRR strike.
What kind of jokes can be made from the #2 train? P is easy (and not in good taste) to make jokes about. So would 7/11 if they decide to 11 for the Flushing Express line.
"What kind of jokes can be made from the #2 train?"
Umm, never had kids or been around them when they're in public? When a kid says they have to go to the bathroom -- usually VERY loudly so that they can let everyone in the room know -- their parent will ask "Is it number one or number two?", hoping that the kid answers quietly and with a number, and not "PEE-PEE, MOMMY!!" in a voice much louder than should be possible from so small a set of lungs :^)
In short, #1 and #2 are euphemisms for the two varieties of human waste.
"In short, #1 and #2 are euphemisms for the two varieties of human waste."
Tears and sweat?
Well for so many years the MTA has treated the #2 line like crap.
I received one vague response,,please clarify the Service patterns for the W,V,10 and 11
THank you ,again
steve
There are NO service patterns for the W, V, #8, #10, #11, or #12, because those lines DO NOT EXIST, and are not currently planned to exist.
There is only a set of ALLOWANCES in the destination signs, plus tons of speculation as to what those lines MIGHT be, IF they were to exist.
Even if those letters and/or numbers are eventually used, there is no requirement that they conform exactly to a several-year-old allowance.
It was my understanding that the letter lines were soon operate in conjunction with the 63 st Connector Track Project
That was everybody's "understanding" - based on speculation such as what appears here on a daily basis.
Again, the W, V, #8, #10, #11, #12, and #13 are allowances that were made several years ago, ONLY because it is much cheaper to include readings when roll-signs are first made up than to splice them in later.
Well another thing to complain about. Orange is one of my two favorite colors and my Sea Beach had that. Now is has yellow. What next?
It was always yellow. The oranges were errors.
OK, it sounds like that could likely be (errors by the manufacturer).
The original yellow (gold) front end "N" signs, (R16, R32, R38, R42, R44, R46, all before the 1985 single-letter revisions) were gold with a large white "N" (R42), and a white "N" in gold circle (all others). Side destination signs in an R16 were white lettering on a gold background.
The RGB code for "N" Gold is 255, 215, 32 (hex: FF D7 20)
Wayne
It's a pretty major error though in a book to mislead readers that the N is orange when it was always gold.
Cudahy repeats the gaffe in the movie appendix when the subject of The French Connection comes up, specifically, the R-42s used in the chase sequence: "The units chosen were normally assigned to the N line, had no B line signs, and therefore operated during the movie with an orange and white N in the front slot." BUZZZZZZZZ!!!
Nope, #4572 wore a Gold N, perhaps a slightly deeper shade thereof, but was not Orange.
Actually, a color similar to that is called #1003 Spanish Orange, the same color as found on the wall at the 15th Street-Prospect Park IND station. It's more orange than yellow but is still considered as part of the yellow family.
Wayne
All the more reason to say another "unh-unh-uhh" to Cudahy.
And John, it makes it even worse when you have total identification with a particular line and believe that it is getting the short end of the stick. I never rode the Sea Beach until April 19, 1947. For some reason my parents always took the West End to see both sets of the Grandparents, one who lived off of New Utrecht, the other off Avenue U. We took the train at Pacific Street and I complained to my dad about if we were ever going to see daylight like onthe Westie. Once we cleared the tunnel after 59th Street, it was love at first sight, and I reveled at going through those mini-tunnels to Avenue U and Coney Island. We would never ride another train to those places unless my parents wanted a raving brat on their hands. It wasn't worth it. That is why I'm #4SeaBeachFred.
Sea Beach is one of my favorite lines too. I love the N, especially with R32's and Slant R40's with a front window. I like the ride on to Astoria on the El, the speed in the 60th street tube, the curves around City Hall, speeding down the 4th avenue BMT Brooklyn express, and the open cut of the Sea Beach. Also you get a great view of the Coney Island facility.
Unfortunately they now have alot of R68 "Hippos" that don't have a front window or the speed of the R32's and R40's.
Also I like when the "B" is rerouted on the Sea Beach express.
Those Lumbering Lardbuckets are also found on the B. I've heard the express reroute along the Sea Beach isn't all it's cracked up to be.
To me, the R-32s are to the N the way the R-10s are to the A.
The Sea Beach express is great, even though it is slow (track in bad condition?) they also can only do it in one direction since only one track is fit for use. I thik also at one point the train switches from one express track to the other, though no sure where. Anyway, I think the B's are running local along that route now during reroutes.
John: You're a gentleman and a scholar and a new found ally. You make it sound like riding the "N" is a real treat, which I still think it is. Once it ran from Times Square to Coney Island. Now, of course, it goes all the way to Ditmars Blvd in Queens. What a treat it would have been if it had been that way when I was a kid. For a while I lived in Queensbridge and could see the train emerging and entering the 60th Street tunnel. Unfortunately it was the #2 Fourth Avenue Local which I hated. Once in a while a #4 train would come out of the tunnel but I could never see or tell if it was a Sea Beach being diverted into Queens or what. I never found out. But to have lived right next to it would have been great.
Thanks Pigs. One less thing to be angry about concerning my favorite train. But are you sure of that?
In the late 70s, the N had a split personality. It was extended to Continental Ave. during weekday daytime hours when the EE was dropped, and during rush hours, additional service to Whitehall St. was provided. I remember seeing a train of R-32s laid up at 57th St. signed up Continental Ave./Whitehall St./N-Broadway Express (even though this service ran local). The strangest part was the local service in one direction during rush hours: southbound to Coney Island AM; northbound to Continental Ave. PM. Weekend service was the same as in the past, between 57th St. and Coney Island, express in Manhattan in both directions all day.
R-32s and R-46s provided base service on the N in those days. R-16s were also used, but I never saw them there. It has been said that R-10s were seen on the N at one point.
I saw once a BROWN circle "N" in a Slant R40 in the back of the route sign but I couldn't make out the car # because it was leaving the station I really saw this at Queensboro Plaza last year (1999). If I see another BROWN circle "N" I will let you know. But I wonder if on the R68 you could see BROWN and ORANGE "N" circle. if you know write to me
I will alert you to the car numbers if I see any wayward or off-color
"N" signs; however, the Slants have been few and far between on the "N" lately; twenty-eight of their fleet have been sent to Eastern Division (the "L"), and now it seems the only Southern Division line which has Slant R40s is the "Q".
The Orange "N" in car #4320 was the front end route marker. It had a white letter, as if it were a "B", "D" or "Q". I have seen "W"s and even "V"s in the side destination signs. Most of the time I see "W"s upside down on the outside of the car (the reverse shows a properly-positioned "N" on the inside).
Where in the car was the brown "N" you saw - the front end destination sign or a side destination sign?
Wayne
Well I've got this book(Under the sidewalks of New York) with a picture on the cover an "N" train of R44s or R46's with an orange N sign.
Perhaps these trains are capable of having orange N train signs?
Even Brian Cudahy, during his ride on the Sea Beach in the epilogue of the original edition, refers to an orange and white N displayed on the front end sign of the train he was on.
Yup,
"Outside the cab he checked the head end sign; an orange and white "N" was correctly displayed"
This was an R32 train. Ironic that the cover also has the N in orange, this time on the newer R44/46 equipment.
If this is true the N wasn't always yellow, but orange at one time, most likely the late 70s when the book was published. It also ran express in Manhattan via Manhattan bridge south side and broadway express, and terminated at 57/7.
Anybody remember the "N" train in the late 70s?
Good Day
I am sure that someone has asked this before
..
Does anyone have a Service Pattern Listing for the W,V,Z,10 ,11
Thanks
Steve
The 10 would be the same as the <5>.
The 11 would be the same as the <7>.
The W would go from Astoria to Whitehall St.
Not sure about the V.
The Z is already in existance.
And the #8 would be the same as the Diamond 6.
The "V" is anybody's guess right now. Saying it would serve stations between 47th-50th Street and B'way-Lafayette as a 6th Avenue Local would be a safe bet.
Wayne
One letter service that was almost used was P. The cars up to the R-38's, when the where overhalled have all the letters of the alphabet. P is on a white circle with no other markings is found at the end of the roll sign. The P was going to be a special service operating between Jamica Center (Jamaica line) to 34 Street/8 Avenue operating express on the Broadwy Brooklyn Line. This was suppost to be used during last two impending Long Island Railroad strikes which would have interrupted service. Since there where no strikes the service was never used. The cars where to be made up of 8 R-32's to be put in from East New York Yard in the moring and Jamaica Yard in the afternoon Jamaica Yard was to have transfered the extra cars for that service to East New York Yard.
These were AmTrak strikes. AmTrak owns Penn Station, if they strike, it's closed. Why would you need to run a train from Jamaica when LIRR is not going there?
How would they travel-Broadway brooklyn to where to switch ?
There's a track switch before Bowery where it can get to the Houston St line (F), then at the big West 4th St maze, it can switch to the 8th Ave line to 34 St.
When the BMT was mulling over the use of letters instead of numbers, wasn't the "P" considered for the Culver to replace the #5?
I don't see why they don't use the "P" for something - even if folks make salty, silly puns out of it (they can do the same thing with the #2 train, can't they?)
P.S. the Mets have just taken the lead, 6-5 on a bases loaded Walk. (9:59PM).
Let's go METS!
wayne
"P" was used on the 3/1996 map- black in a clear ("white") background to indicate park and ride lots.
I alaso think Steve (Train Dude)told us it was to be for Special service during a possible special Non-Stop to Penn during the last possible LIRR strike.
What kind of jokes can be made from the #2 train? P is easy (and not in good taste) to make jokes about. So would 7/11 if they decide to 11 for the Flushing Express line.
"What kind of jokes can be made from the #2 train?"
Umm, never had kids or been around them when they're in public? When a kid says they have to go to the bathroom -- usually VERY loudly so that they can let everyone in the room know -- their parent will ask "Is it number one or number two?", hoping that the kid answers quietly and with a number, and not "PEE-PEE, MOMMY!!" in a voice much louder than should be possible from so small a set of lungs :^)
In short, #1 and #2 are euphemisms for the two varieties of human waste.
"In short, #1 and #2 are euphemisms for the two varieties of human waste."
Tears and sweat?
Well for so many years the MTA has treated the #2 line like crap.
I received one vague response,,please clarify the Service patterns for the W,V,10 and 11
THank you ,again
steve
There are NO service patterns for the W, V, #8, #10, #11, or #12, because those lines DO NOT EXIST, and are not currently planned to exist.
There is only a set of ALLOWANCES in the destination signs, plus tons of speculation as to what those lines MIGHT be, IF they were to exist.
Even if those letters and/or numbers are eventually used, there is no requirement that they conform exactly to a several-year-old allowance.
It was my understanding that the letter lines were soon operate in conjunction with the 63 st Connector Track Project
That was everybody's "understanding" - based on speculation such as what appears here on a daily basis.
Again, the W, V, #8, #10, #11, #12, and #13 are allowances that were made several years ago, ONLY because it is much cheaper to include readings when roll-signs are first made up than to splice them in later.
Well another thing to complain about. Orange is one of my two favorite colors and my Sea Beach had that. Now is has yellow. What next?
It was always yellow. The oranges were errors.
OK, it sounds like that could likely be (errors by the manufacturer).
The original yellow (gold) front end "N" signs, (R16, R32, R38, R42, R44, R46, all before the 1985 single-letter revisions) were gold with a large white "N" (R42), and a white "N" in gold circle (all others). Side destination signs in an R16 were white lettering on a gold background.
The RGB code for "N" Gold is 255, 215, 32 (hex: FF D7 20)
Wayne
It's a pretty major error though in a book to mislead readers that the N is orange when it was always gold.
Cudahy repeats the gaffe in the movie appendix when the subject of The French Connection comes up, specifically, the R-42s used in the chase sequence: "The units chosen were normally assigned to the N line, had no B line signs, and therefore operated during the movie with an orange and white N in the front slot." BUZZZZZZZZ!!!
Nope, #4572 wore a Gold N, perhaps a slightly deeper shade thereof, but was not Orange.
Actually, a color similar to that is called #1003 Spanish Orange, the same color as found on the wall at the 15th Street-Prospect Park IND station. It's more orange than yellow but is still considered as part of the yellow family.
Wayne
All the more reason to say another "unh-unh-uhh" to Cudahy.
And John, it makes it even worse when you have total identification with a particular line and believe that it is getting the short end of the stick. I never rode the Sea Beach until April 19, 1947. For some reason my parents always took the West End to see both sets of the Grandparents, one who lived off of New Utrecht, the other off Avenue U. We took the train at Pacific Street and I complained to my dad about if we were ever going to see daylight like onthe Westie. Once we cleared the tunnel after 59th Street, it was love at first sight, and I reveled at going through those mini-tunnels to Avenue U and Coney Island. We would never ride another train to those places unless my parents wanted a raving brat on their hands. It wasn't worth it. That is why I'm #4SeaBeachFred.
Sea Beach is one of my favorite lines too. I love the N, especially with R32's and Slant R40's with a front window. I like the ride on to Astoria on the El, the speed in the 60th street tube, the curves around City Hall, speeding down the 4th avenue BMT Brooklyn express, and the open cut of the Sea Beach. Also you get a great view of the Coney Island facility.
Unfortunately they now have alot of R68 "Hippos" that don't have a front window or the speed of the R32's and R40's.
Also I like when the "B" is rerouted on the Sea Beach express.
Those Lumbering Lardbuckets are also found on the B. I've heard the express reroute along the Sea Beach isn't all it's cracked up to be.
To me, the R-32s are to the N the way the R-10s are to the A.
The Sea Beach express is great, even though it is slow (track in bad condition?) they also can only do it in one direction since only one track is fit for use. I thik also at one point the train switches from one express track to the other, though no sure where. Anyway, I think the B's are running local along that route now during reroutes.
John: You're a gentleman and a scholar and a new found ally. You make it sound like riding the "N" is a real treat, which I still think it is. Once it ran from Times Square to Coney Island. Now, of course, it goes all the way to Ditmars Blvd in Queens. What a treat it would have been if it had been that way when I was a kid. For a while I lived in Queensbridge and could see the train emerging and entering the 60th Street tunnel. Unfortunately it was the #2 Fourth Avenue Local which I hated. Once in a while a #4 train would come out of the tunnel but I could never see or tell if it was a Sea Beach being diverted into Queens or what. I never found out. But to have lived right next to it would have been great.
Thanks Pigs. One less thing to be angry about concerning my favorite train. But are you sure of that?
In the late 70s, the N had a split personality. It was extended to Continental Ave. during weekday daytime hours when the EE was dropped, and during rush hours, additional service to Whitehall St. was provided. I remember seeing a train of R-32s laid up at 57th St. signed up Continental Ave./Whitehall St./N-Broadway Express (even though this service ran local). The strangest part was the local service in one direction during rush hours: southbound to Coney Island AM; northbound to Continental Ave. PM. Weekend service was the same as in the past, between 57th St. and Coney Island, express in Manhattan in both directions all day.
R-32s and R-46s provided base service on the N in those days. R-16s were also used, but I never saw them there. It has been said that R-10s were seen on the N at one point.
An orange N is probably what I saw. I must have had trouble telling the orange from the brown.
On separate R62s I've seen the green circle "10" and today I saw a #6 R62 one car had a red circle "13"
I've scrolled an entire R-62a sign and saw:
9 1 2 3 13 4 <4> 5 <5> 6 <6> 8 12 7 <7> 11 S Special End, in that order.
Also I forgot to note that there was a Magenta toned 10 spotted on a set of "1" Line R-62As, Is there plans eventually for the "8", "10", "11", "13", and "W" trains?
R142 Boi 2K
First: What Transit is doing is making allowances. It's cheaper to include readings when the roll-signs are first made up than to splice them in later.
Second: The R62A roll-sign that I saw being scrolled contained the following readings, in order:
Red 1
Red 9
Red 2
Red 3
Red 13
Green 4
Green 4-diamond
Green 5
Green 5-diamond
Green 6
Green 6-diamond
Green 8
Green 10
Green 12
Purple 7
Purple 7-diamond
Purple 11
Grey S
However, that was several years ago. Are there new roll-signs with different colors for different numbers?
I have no idea when the TA changes mylar signs but there was a magenta colored "10" sign on a set of R62As on the "1" train. This was last week tuesday I saw this.
R124 Boi 2K
If they have a brown circle W sign, why didn't they use that for skip-stop service on the J line? Why did they skip all the way to Z?
It was not a brown circle "W", It was a diamond brown "W". I just can't make Diamonds yet! I haven't perfected it. SORRY! But As I stated It may have been yellow but worn out to a brown.
R142 Boi 2K
Haven't heard much about the supposed conversion of the Farley Post Office to Amtrak. Still in negotiations, NIMBY protestations or environmental wackos, or is it charging ahead?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think it's started, though IMHO it's a waste to tear up yet another historical building to serve the needs of a boondogle that's not likely to be around in another 3 or so years.
Especially when the better solution would be a whole new MSG/Penn complex.
The post office turned Penn station is just an expensive attempt to put a pretty face on what's effectively a hole in the ground, and also an attempt to try to recreate a station that even today, people are upset we ever let slip away.
Penn is gone, GCT was saved. Let's be thankful GCT is still here and get on with life. No amount of money or tearing up of the post office will bring back the origional Penn Station. I'd rather spend 2 or 3 times as much and get a whole new station that solves the pressing needs that won't be solved by this silly proposal.
I'm not nuts about the proposed Farley, but for a different reason. The main entrance will be 33rd between 8th and 9th, in other words, the middle of nowhere. Penn, as bad as it is, gets you out on 7th Avenue, and you're in the middle of everything....
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm not nuts about the proposed Farley, but for a different reason. The main entrance will be 33rd between 8th and 9th, in other words, the middle of nowhere. Penn, as bad as it is, gets you out on 7th Avenue, and you're in the middle of everything....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Pat Monyihan wants a legacy, just like every other politician, and probably is truly nostalgic for the old Penn Station, but I agree there's a bit of boondoggle written on this.
If I'm a passenger in one of the rear cars on a Acela train headed for Washington a few years from now, I'm going to be pretty ticked off to find out I have to enter the new Penn Station a half a block west of Eighth Ave. and then walk all the way back to halfway between Seventh and Eighth Ave. to board the train, unless they're also going to move all the platforms 150 yards west as well. Amtrak connections to the LIRR also figure to become more of a pain in the butt (espcially for luggage carriers) when the new set-up is completed.
Rebuilding the station on the old site would be the best solution, but that will never happen unless someone can make a lot of bucks off the airspace above the station (which eliminates any thought of recreating the old Penn Station look) and unless the Madison Square Garden people can find an arena location thats accessible to mass transit -- not so much for those courtside I-wanna-been-seen Knick ticketholders, but for the people going to concerts or taking their kids to the circus or the latest Nickelodeon Rugrats on ice performance.
A few blocks west of the current site would be OK, if they built that No. 7 extension Rudy's been talking about, though since Steinbrenner is now involved with the Nets and Devils, he'd probably tell Giuliani not to build the route if it was going to be for a competing arena instead of a new Yankee Stadium.
[Rebuilding the station on the old site would be the best solution, but that will never happen unless someone can make a lot of bucks off the airspace above the station (which eliminates any thought of recreating the old Penn Station look) and unless the Madison Square Garden people can find an arena location thats accessible to mass transit -- not so much for those courtside I-wanna-been-seen Knick ticketholders, but for the people going to concerts or taking their kids to the circus or the latest Nickelodeon Rugrats on ice performance.]
Madison Square Garden is talking about moving a few blocks West--they have their eyes on the 30th Street yard. So why not give it to them, in return for the Penn Station property? Leave the MSG tower, sell the air rights to neighboring buildings, and use the proceeds plus the Farley money to rebuild the original "train shed" portion of the building--it's glass and skeleton, sort of an early version of Javits and so not impossibly expensive. Then, as money is made available, rebuild the rest of the station over a period of years with funds from the many agencies that the rebuilt station would serve.
But will the Garden move without assurances of improved mass transit? That was why I said if they extended the 7 train west it would be more likely to happen. A Garden over at 11th Avenue would have the same problem the Javits Center has right now -- no access except by the 42nd and 34th Street crosstown buses. On a rainy or snowy day, thay could be a real pain for people having to walk over three long blocks from the subway at Penn Station. And not everyone who goes to the Garden arrives in limos.
[And not everyone who goes to the Garden arrives in limos.]
But team owners and politicians all pander to the people who have skyboxes at arenas - and these people *do* arrive by limo!
And they may fill the place up for all the Knicks games. But it's that Saturday afternoon circus performance or some New York Liberty game in the summer that won't fill the Garden up with fat cats, and that's where the rotten mass transit access at 11th Ave. and 33rd St. will hurt attendance.
[And they may fill the place up for all the Knicks games. But it's that Saturday afternoon circus performance or some New York Liberty game in the summer that won't fill the Garden up with fat cats, and that's where the rotten mass transit access at 11th Ave. and 33rd St. will hurt attendance.]
Here's the whole Times editorial that explains some of the thinking. One thing that puzzles me--doesn't it make sense to combine the Olympic Stadium and the Jets proposal? Yet they talk about them as if they were two different things. I'm not in favor of building stadia for sports teams because the economic activity from a few hot dog vendor jobs doesn't begin to justify the cost, but if it can bring the Olympics *and* house the Jets it might well make fiscal sense.
March 26, 2000
New York City's New Dreams
The headlines nowadays are filled with ambitious proposals to transform New York City's landscape. One day, planners unveil a scheme to stage the Olympics in the city, with a new stadium on the West Side and apartment houses for athletes on the Queens waterfront. Another day, Albany debates plans to connect the Long Island Rail Road to Grand Central Terminal or build a new Second Avenue subway. Clearly boom times are producing dreams for big projects, opening a potential new chapter in the city's self-renewal. But dreams also entail tough decisions. It is far from obvious how best to use limited resources for urban growth.
There is, of course, continuing pressure for New York City to use its regular capital budget to repair schools, bridges and the
infrastructure. But the city's history also illustrates the importance of grand projects that spur economic growth and enhance New York's reputation as a cultural and business mecca. The need for planned expansion of existing public and private facilities is illustrated daily by crowded subways, high-priced apartments and squeezed commercial space. It is equally evident that there is room for quality development around rail yards, in old manufacturing areas and in underused waterfront districts. The problem for elected officials is how to sort through competing plans and find the best way to continue the tradition that has produced past successes from Rockefeller Center to Lincoln Center and Battery Park City.
Four overarching goals are already evident. The city government should try to open up Manhattan's West Side to development. It should also revise the city's residential zoning to protect the character of existing neighborhoods. The other two goals are the upgrading of transit links and development of the waterfront and other vacant areas. Shaping projects around these goals will involve complicated choices about the mix of public and private funds and the feasibility of various stadium proposals. Those choices, in turn, will be influenced by the outcome of the effort to recruit the Olympics. Here is a rundown on the major issues:
The West Side. The biggest opportunity for apartments and offices is in Manhattan, west of Eighth Avenue and south of 42nd Street, an area developers have eyed for years. The main impediment is a lack of transit access. The committee that proposes to bring the 2012 Olympics to New York has some imaginative suggestions. One proposal is to build a stadium over the rail yards near the waterfront, and link the site with the No. 7 subway line, the Long Island Rail Road, Metro North and the Amtrak trains to New Jersey.
The Olympic bid is supported by Gov. George Pataki and Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, who also wants a West Side stadium for the Jets and the Javits Convention Center. Madison Square Garden is also said to be interested in moving west. A valuable new neighborhood could rise one day from what is now largely parking lots, warehouses and wasted space. The stadium proposals deserve serious study. But any new facility should have multiple uses, and no potential user -- whether the Olympics or a sports franchise -- should be handed a blank check.
The West Side is also being looked at by a team of business leaders put together by Senator Charles Schumer and former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin. They want to find room for high-tech and other business expansion in other parts of the city as well.
The Olympics. The Olympics do not always produce the economic activity that sponsors promise. But the Olympics group has laid out an intriguing scheme in which a stadium just might work. Its projections show that a public investment in a train stop and platform over the railroad tracks -- with or without a stadium -- could be paid for by tax revenues from new office, hotel and residential buildings. Overall, projected revenue from the Olympics would pay for more than $1 billion in new athletic facilities throughout the city. The Olympics proposal also calls for an athletes village to be built on the Queens waterfront and later converted to apartments. The entire proposal foresees improvements in housing, public facilities and transportation that would outlast the Games.
Transit. In New York City, of course, grand schemes often spark big squabbling. The state budget is now being held up by a fight over Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver's demand that more money be spent for a Second Avenue subway line. There is no question that the Second Avenue subway is a priority, but financing that line should not preclude bringing the Long Island Rail Road to Grand Central or extending the No. 7 subway line to new West Side development.
Residential preservation. All these ideas for growth reinforce the city's responsibility to protect its neighborhoods. One initiative to accommodate construction of new apartments without destroying existing places is being put forward by the New York City Planning Commission under its chairman, Joseph Rose. It would revise the residential zoning code to encourage buildings on the scale of existing neighborhoods, and discourage blasting down existing street blocks for empty plazas and big towers like the one Donald Trump is constructing near the United Nations. This commendable proposal is going through a review with the city's community boards and should be adopted.
All these activities reflect New York's optimistic new spirit. Even in these affluent times, however, the public must spend its resources wisely. Recent proposals for Columbus Circle and a new Penn Station have proved that there still is a role for the government to facilitate and, in some cases, subsidize exciting new projects. The same attitude can create still more possibilities for the future. We intend to address the specifics of all these proposals in coming weeks. For now it is important to salute the promise of ideas for a new chapter in the constant journey of a city reinventing itself.
[But will the Garden move without assurances of improved mass transit? That was why I said if they extended the 7 train west it would be more likely to happen. A Garden over at 11th Avenue would have the same problem the Javits Center has right now -- no access except by the 42nd and 34th Street crosstown buses. On a rainy or snowy day, thay could be a real pain for people having to walk over three long blocks from the subway at Penn Station. And not everyone who goes to the Garden arrives in limos.]
"The Olympic bid is supported by Gov. George Pataki and Mayor Rudolph
Giuliani, who also wants a West Side stadium for the Jets and the
Javits Convention Center. Madison Square Garden is also said to be
interested in moving west."
It seems that MSG chose their original location because of the train lines; perhaps they've concluded that easy access to the highway and the tunnel would benefit attendance more than mass transit now.
I can see the whole thing working out beautifully. A second, competitive convention center linked to MSG--the competing center would put pressure on Javits to lower its ridiculous costs, one of the main reasons more conventions don't come here, while at the same time giving us the space we need to attract large and profitable shows. Madison Square Garden next to the center, sharing its traffic ramps and access facilities and becoming an extension of the center for huge shows like CES or the NAB. The olympic stadium across the street, which would become the Jets stadium afterwards. All linked to a rebuilt Penn Station hub by our friend track 21, with MN and NJT stations for fight night. It could be the Lincoln Center of the 0's (hey, that doesn't sound right), providing the boost to the area that the Javits Center alone never did. ?
?
So, you're saying that any new Garden will be aimed at the Long Island and Jersey bridge and tunnel crowd who don't take subways? Perhaps the demos show that the money is with those people, not the Brooklyn and western Queens folks...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Interesting. I always thought that the easy rail acess to MSG was an advantage. I don't think you'd get a lot of people driving into NYC for Ranger's or Knicks games. Or anything else, for that matter.
[So, you're saying that any new Garden will be aimed at the Long Island and Jersey bridge and tunnel crowd who don't take subways? Perhaps the demos show that the money is with those people, not the Brooklyn and western Queens folks... ]
I'm not sure, just repeating what I read, but it may be the case--they're going where the middle class is. The same argument was used for relocating Yankee Stadium to the West Side of Manhattan--apparently the Yankees would do signficantly more business there (they say, anyway).
Little bit different rationale in both cases. The idea, usually left fully unstated, was that moving Yankee Stadium to the west side of Manhattan would increase the attednace because people were afraid to either drive or take the subway to the South Bronx.
If the Garden were to move, it wouldn't be because 11th Avenue and 33rd Street is safer than 33rd and Eighth. It would be because they thought they could make more money with a new building and the higher prices they could charge. But as I said before, with the existing transit facilities on 11th Ave. limited, and with Steinbrenner and Co. talking up a new arena in Newark to go with the Continental Arena at the Madowlands, relocating to an area that would be easier to reach from New Jersey than from the rest of the city would be stupid, because you can only fill a limited number of seats with folks arriving by limo to all of the events held at MSG each year.
[Little bit different rationale in both cases. The idea, usually left fully unstated, was that moving Yankee Stadium to the west side of Manhattan would increase the attednace because people were afraid to either drive or take the subway to the South Bronx.
If the Garden were to move, it wouldn't be because 11th Avenue and 33rd Street is safer than 33rd and Eighth. It would be because they thought they could make more money with a new building and the higher prices they could charge. But as I said before, with the existing transit facilities on 11th Ave. limited, and with Steinbrenner and Co. talking up a new arena in Newark to go with the Continental Arena at the Madowlands, relocating to an area that would be easier to reach from New Jersey than from the rest of the city would be stupid, because you can only fill a limited number of seats with folks arriving by limo to all of the events held at MSG each year.]
I have a feeling though there will be new transit there before long--Metro North, the #7, even that Track 21 shuttle if they can figure out how to make a $1 million project cost $1 billion.
[if they can figure out how to make a $1 million project cost $1 billion]
This being New York, that should be no problem whatsoever.
[I think it's started, though IMHO it's a waste to tear up yet another historical building to serve the needs of a boondogle that's not likely to be around in another 3 or so years.
Especially when the better solution would be a whole new MSG/Penn complex.
The post office turned Penn station is just an expensive attempt to put a pretty face on what's effectively a hole in the ground, and also an attempt to try to recreate a station that even today, people are upset we ever let slip away.
Penn is gone, GCT was saved. Let's be thankful GCT is still here and get on with life. No amount of money or tearing up of the post office will bring back the origional Penn Station. I'd rather spend 2 or 3 times as much and get a whole new station that solves the pressing needs that won't be solved by this silly proposal.]
I agree--except that it seems to me that now that Madison Square Garden is thinking of moving it's possible to rebuild the original Penn Station.
Let's face it, any modern structure will be a hole in the ground by comparison.
They really work. Passwords allow Dave to dump the truly offensive, while killfiles allow everyone to screen the merely aggravating without general censorship (and without the screened knowing they have been screened).
Dave is to be commended for these amazing solutions.
Yes, it's a user-friendly system that will help keep the droolers and lunatics off of this board. The intensity of some of these people is scary.
I have some suggestions, NOT IMPORTANT but should be interesting anyway:
You still see Responses if the one response is killfiled away (as opposed to there are no responses). And the messages are still indented as they were, just the line holding the offending message is gone.
Now then there is when you get to see a link to someone's message by virtue of a response, although the reference can be removed (instead of In response to, just make it look like an original).
[killfiles allow everyone to screen the merely aggravating without general censorship (and without the screened knowing they have been screened).]
On the other hand, I've made it abundantly clear that I've killfiled Salaamallah. I *want* him to know.
to the last several threads ( you know who you are ).......
# 1..flamage .... # 2 ad homiem attacks..... # 3..insults.!!
this is to the children who posted previous threads ahead of this post !!
Well Big S, why don't you use the killfile and rub them out. This way you can both ignore each other. Actually I kill nothing. I find most of it enjoyable, and sometimes I find myself holding my sides in uncontrolled laughter. I wonder how we would all feel if we met at a convention. I suspect we'd look at each other and laugh like hell.
i dont have any bad feelings toward anybody except to tell others how the webmaster said
about personal verbal assults attacks and insults etc......
i just dont do it !! ...... on the killfile why bother to hide behind that B.S. like some scared coward ??
no i am not going to use the silly killfile system either.....
i am looking for museum train fans and persons who appreciate the fun of rail transit etc....... ( you know )
its thier loss not mine i am not some ALIEN in 3D..!! or something like that ask heypaul he and i spoke on the phone !!
I will accept the name in good taste ... the big ""S" not a bad sub handle !! .........dont you have a website ?? ( thanks )........
to the last several threads ( you know who you are ).......
# 1..flamage .... # 2 ad homiem attacks..... # 3..insults.!!
this is to the children who posted previous threads ahead of this post !!..
It apparently doesn't work. He is the only person I killfiled, and there appears to be responses to your message (I can see the word Responses, just not the responses).
flamage as hominem atttacks and insults and insults children -subtalkers and thier typical usual behaviour !
........& hiding behind killfiles etc........ never real discussions on rail transit systems worldwide etc...........................!
Mr. P---Something tells me that whether Big Salaam is putting out threads left and right or not, you enjoy going tit for tat with him. If that is so, well fine. I feel the same way. Whether we're being intellectually stimulating or acting like jerks it makes for some interested sidebars. You also can take it, so it's not hurting you in the least. But would you do me a favor? Please, no more about the census. I'm going to plead with everyone on that subject. It is really making me sick when read something on that.
If you can't actually see a link to his post in the responses, it's working as designed. If you read a message that was a response to one of his message, you can see that. There's no way to completely eliminate the entire presence with the killfile.
-Hank
I know, but I would like it if the message appeared as a response to the message he was responding to as opposed to to him.
> Passwords allow Dave to dump the truly offensive
I haven't read the rest of this thread yet but I haven't "dumped" anyone - right now I don't do any pre-screening of who can get a password. It's pretty obvious to me a big part of the problem is (was) arbitrary handle-changing.
Wow!
Take a leave of absence for a few weeks and your fave website goes metamorphic on you. I almost thought I had the wrong URL!
Dave, all the new changes are wonderful and quite useful(i.e. the Newest Images link).
Because of school and other commitments I've been away a lot. I was sorry to find out I missed the HBLR opening. Maybe I'll try it over the summer.
I'm also glad to see SubTalk didn't get spammed into oblivion.
I'm back now(like anyone cares:)
BTW, check out the always changing homepage at sibernaut.8k.com.
Has anything Earth-shattering happened recently that's taken up an entire thread? You're still using third rail, right?
BTW, has anyone noticed the cameras being installed on some M-4's? Car 1061 has four.
04/20/2000
Just saw a new commercial on the TV this evening about Rice Krispies treats. The car involved is of course a somewhat convincing studio mockup. What make it even more interesting is the stainless steel ceiling mounted hand holds are the ones used on our R26-38's. If you see it, pay close attention.
Also another one is either a Ford or GM one, a R-42 looking mockup, possibly on a flat bed pacing an automobile that's the focus of the commercial. The idea is not to be wasting your time commuting to work on an R-42 looking mockup, but leave the subway and travel to work by car if you can afford the parking rates and tolerate traffic!
Bill Newkirk
right now most of the students in new york are on
vacation... i have taken a part time job with the
bureau of census to help cover the bills... i am an
on-line census taker... they have given me a list of
people who have not returned their 2000 census
forms, and it is my job to see if they are on the
internet... if they are, it is my job to interview
them, so that mass transit funding for railfan windows will be properly computed... checking my database of the 8 people in the entire united states who have failed to return their census forms, it seems that i have lucked out... one of subtalk's preeminent posters is on my list... unfortunately he has been chosen to complete the extra long form, which takes about 2 weeks to fill out... this is great, since i can really use the overtime pay
didn't anyone else think that was funny? i did, but i couldn't think of a funny reply.
rob from atlanta !! i like you very much.............. its just that senseless census that has to go !!!!
how are they doing with that new marta rail station ?? did it open up yet ??..........
the two new stations, Sandy Springs and North Springs, open December 2000.
i remember that liscense plate that said "" I AM FROM SANDY SPRINGS TOYOTA "" .....!!!!
and the other one """ANOTHER DYER AND DYER ORIGINAL "" ( brand new volvo automobiles ) ........!!
thanks rob... i thought it was quite funny myself...
even though the lengthy interview i have to conduct with salaam may seem very invasive, there is a section where they ask if the person has ever done any railfan window photography, and if so, on what subway lines...
i was at the south end of the northbound A express platform... i was looking down at the roadbed, hoping to see several large rats, but instead saw an unusually large number of duracell batteries between the tracks... i was intrigued by why there were so many batteries there... and why were they all duracells...
is this location an approved battery disposal dump for duracells?
is the mta renting out the space between the rails
for advertising, and was this is a subliminal duracell advertising site?
did the battery box on an r-46 A express break open releasing its batteries?
was this part of the rodent control efforts.--- throwing good duracells onto the roadbed, which when wet would shock passing rats?
If the power the to third rail goes out, the batteries are there as backup to power the whole line. They use Duracells because we all know duracells last longer and have more power than Energizer and their stupid bunny.
Some fan on his way to Shea Stadium to greet
John Rocker sold out easy to the 8th Ave hookers
and dropped his bag.. literally.
[was this part of the rodent control efforts.--- throwing good duracells onto the roadbed, which when wet would shock passing rats?]
Those rats have been selected for by years of contact with the third rail. Not only are they immune to electricity, they live off it. That's why rodent control efforts are doomed to fail; to kill the rats, we'll have to kill the juice.
04/20/2000
[Those rats have been selected for by years of contact with the third rail. Not only are they immune to electricity, they live off it. That's why rodent control efforts are doomed to fail; to kill the rats, we'll have to kill the juice. ]
Are these rats on the MTA payroll ?
Bill Newkirk
No, but they just might grow up to be MTA chairman some day.:)
[Are these rats on the MTA payroll ?
Bill Newkirk]
They're managers--one rat for every four mice.
Maybe someone thought they saw John (off his) Rocker down on the trackbed and tried to nail him with a barrage of batteries.
BTW, those are R-44s on the A, not R-46s.
No the battery guy was walking through cars and got bumped dropping his whole load of One Dollar One Dollar into the subway bed.
He wanted me to pay for them too....
Hey all,
Haven't posted here for months. Needless to say, I've been out enjoying our subways and haven't had much time to check in with you guys.
Simple question: I am interested in doing some exploration/research of the abandoned High Line in Chlesea/West Side of Manhattan. It has come to my attention that it ends right near my friend's building in the Meatpacking district.
Therefore, does anyone know of a place where one could get onto the elevated structure (legal or otherwise)? I prefer doing it safely but sometimes there are few options.
Thanks in advance.
My knowledge is about 2 years old. But the elevated structure is (was)fairly well fenced. CSX is concerned with liability from trespassers.
I walked it with some Conrail folks when I worked for the NYC Planning Dept. There was a thread on this maybe a week or two ago. Obviously I wouldn't recommend trespassing but that's up to you.
A neat place to start research is http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r030.html
Also Carl Condit's "Port of New York" has a neat history of the line. GOOD LUCK.
Kevin Walsh has info and photos on the High Line, on his website
WWW.forgotten-ny.com
I drove by it the other day. If nothing else, it would make a pretty neat bikeway.
[I drove by it the other day. If nothing else, it would make a pretty neat bikeway.]
They've already built the world's most overbuilt bikeway and jogging path in Gribble State Park. I was down there today, and the thing is big enough to handle two tanks going in opposite directions, and with "PEDS MUST YIELD" signs stencilled in yellow it has all the quiet charm of the Cross Bronx Expressway. All you'd have to do to turn it into a busway/people mover/light transit/heavy transit way is to straighten it a bit. It's just crying out for such a use--to think that we've wasted so much space in Manhattan!--and the park is crying out to be a *real* park, rather than a few stunted trees in blue concrete planters.
I also passed the St. John's Park freight terminal. Four blocks and eight tracks with a capacity of 150 cars, now connected to nothing . . . at the very least it would have made a great garbage depot!
Actually, if I'm permitted a moment of "what if", a really neat strategy would have been to save the West Side Highway south of 14th Street, and hook that into the High Line and turn the whole thing into an elevated LRT linking Financial Center with Penn Station and Javits. I think the hiking/biking advocates really had a good case for saving that highway as a pedway, crime/police would have been the only issue. The highway was wide enough for 2 tracks on the building side and a promenade on the water side. Walking beside two railway tracks high above the traffic would be a far more pleasant experience than what is planned/UC now, a walk/bikeway beside the traffic and isolated from the community by the roadway. Oh well. This is said with all due respect to landscape architects, of course, but highways and pedestrians will nearly always be incompatible.
My understanding of the structure's demise was that the chief problem was the deck, not the superstructure. Hence it could have been rebuilt as a transitway without too much trouble.
When I was a teenager I had a job delivering packages, I was in the St John's Park building often. A massive structure that was "intermodal" long before the term was coined. Pity it didn't survive intact into the age of the Roadrailer - UPS is right next door, all their freight comes over the GWB.
Will we learn from our past mistakes? Doubt it........
BTW, does anyone know if the old Yellow Freight System/Hemingway truck terminal on West Street is still vacant?
I remember the old West Side Elevated Highway. It was a fun road to drive on, sort of like an elevated Jackie Robinson or Taconic with the sharp 90* turns. And in those days if you were in midtown and you wanted to go crosstown it was actually much faster to go down the WS Hway, through the S Ferry tunnel and up the FDR than going crosstown in the 30's, 40's, or 50's.(streets, not years) I was a yellow medallion cab driver during the time of its demise in the 1970's.
I rode on it (W Side Hwy) in my dad's 68 VW, but am too young to have driven on it. I also watched the 1976 Bicentennial fireworks from it, and remember plenty of trains under it.
I was a cabbie too, 1985-88. A rough way to make a living but it paid for school!
What was your favorite (or least hated) cab? My vote was for the Dodge, with the Chevy a distant second. I never liked the Fords. I missed the checkers, and never drovw a Volvo or Pugeout.
[I remember the old West Side Elevated Highway. It was a fun road to drive on, sort of like an elevated Jackie Robinson or Taconic with the sharp 90* turns. And in those days if you were in midtown and you wanted to go crosstown it was actually much faster to go down the WS Hway, through the S Ferry tunnel and up the FDR than going crosstown in the 30's, 40's, or 50's.(streets, not years) I was a yellow medallion cab driver during the time of its demise in the 1970's.]
I learned to drive on the West Side Highway (not really legal, since you couldn't use a learner's permit there). A fairly good course in collision avoidance!
[Actually, if I'm permitted a moment of "what if", a really neat strategy would have been to save the West Side Highway south of 14th Street, and hook that into the High Line and turn the whole thing into an elevated LRT linking Financial Center with Penn Station and Javits. I think the hiking/biking advocates really had a good case for saving that highway as a pedway, crime/police would have been the only issue. The highway was wide enough for 2 tracks on the building side and a promenade on the water side. Walking beside two railway tracks high above the traffic would be a far more pleasant experience than what is planned/UC now, a walk/bikeway beside the traffic and isolated from the community by the roadway.]
What they've built of that is used--I see joggers on it all the time--but it has all the charm of a Saudi Arabian forest scene. It's just crying out for a better use--there would still be plenty of room for bikers and joggers, who might actually enjoy being in a real park rather than the sorry excuses for same they've been building lately (Battery Park City, Gribble State Park, the sewage plant . . . ). Hey guys, a park isn't a plaza, it isn't a few plantes, it isn't a railing, and it isn't a road with bicycles on it! Hello, guys?
[When I was a teenager I had a job delivering packages, I was in the St John's Park building often. A massive structure that was "intermodal" long before the term was coined. Pity it didn't survive intact into the age of the Roadrailer - UPS is right next door, all their freight comes over the GWB.]
It could be resurrected if they extended the RR down West Street. Too bad it's not further downtown--it would have made a great terminal for Metro North.
[it has all the charm of a Saudi Arabian forest scene]
An analogy, or a non sequiter?
([it has all the charm of a Saudi Arabian forest scene]
An analogy, or a non sequiter?])
An ironic analogy based on an oxymoron? That bicycle path has all the charm of a woman with motorcycle tattoos.
[Hey all,
Haven't posted here for months. Needless to say, I've been out enjoying our subways and haven't had much time to check in with you guys.
Simple question: I am interested in doing some exploration/research of the abandoned High Line in Chlesea/West Side of Manhattan. It has come to my attention that it ends right near my friend's building in the Meatpacking district.
Therefore, does anyone know of a place where one could get onto the elevated structure (legal or otherwise)? I prefer doing it safely but sometimes there are few options.
Thanks in advance.]
LOL, I was exploring it the other day and asking myself the same question. Lots of razor wire, as Conrad says, and the line itself is blocked at many business entrances. Still, I managed a bit of an adventure at 35th Street off 11th; while I was looking through the fence into the cut, a pack of junkyard dogs charged out onto the street from an opening labeled, logically enough, "dogs." It was a rather hairy situation for a while--each time I tried to back off, they advanced, barking and growling, meaning I had to stand my ground. Fortunately I had an umbrella with me & they were apparently unaware that it was one of the cheesy throwaway ones that wouldn't hurt a mouse. Eventually I was able to turn and walk away.
I notice in the new images section there is a picture of some srapped cars in "Naporano Yard."
As I am unfamilar with this yard, can someone clue me in as to where/what this is?
Thanks.
Naporano Iron and Metal Company is located in Newark, NJ.
I had posted this picture of 8173 to Dave, one of the red cap R27 program cars. Ironically, I had this one in passenger service as little as four weeks before the picture was taken and it didn't run long in the redbird paint scheme. The GE R27s were extremely unreliable cars and it was scrapped in Naporano's yard amongst many of the green R10s it was supposed to replace.
As implied by the previous posts, Naporano is a scrapper in New Jersey. The "yard" is their scrapyard, not a rail yard per se, although it has been the final home of many subway cars over the years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On 1:21 PM (EDT), let's take a moment of silence for the children...
On 1:21 PM (EDT), let's take a moment of silence for the children...
And don't forget a moment of anger for the school administration whos inaction in the face of inter-student abuse likely pushed the two (eventual) shooters into their killing spree. If someone is being abused and they have no recourse, it should be no surprise to anyone when they snap.
While watching the anneversary coverage on TV, pay particular attention to the stock footage of the police (with weapons aimed) ordering the Columbine survivors to stand against a wall with their hands in the air. This is hardly the best way to calm a group of people who have been in fear for their lives.
The shooters certainly wern't the only problem in that school; they deserve 'moment of silence' just as much as their victims.
CH.
Though it certainly wasn't the best course of action possible, the officers were doing their jobs. Not enough was known about the situation at the time to allow any and everyone to leave campus while shooting was going on.
Did the officers know to look for black trenchcoats? Did they know which rooms the murderers were in?
If there's anything that's made me angry as a result, it's the knee-jerk "we-have-to-do-everything-in-our-power-to-protect-our-children-even-if-that-means-suspending-the-freedom-of-others" response that every school in America has done. My own school, considered one the best and safest in the city(Philadelphia) is fighting the installation of metal detectors.
As well, everyone is now making sure not to step on their kids toes to keep them from becoming like that. Last year during a physical, my doctor performed a virtual psychoanalysis, asking me things like "Do you dream of shooting your classmates?" or "Would you bring a weapon to school?" I'd never been asked questions like that before.
Want to prevent another Columbine? The answer isn't in taking your child's video games, computers or Rammstein CD's. It's responsible parenting. If you raise your kids right, then no amount of rock music or media violence will push them into sociopathy.
I'm living proof, without sounding too modest. I listen to the same music and play the same video games as those two did and I've never even contemplated gunning down classmates, animals or people on the street.
Why? I was raised to know right from wrong.
Want a second opinion? Ask 15 million of my fellow teens who've never shot anyone.
Well said. Too many people are rushing to condemn the many for the actions of the VERY few. OTOH, those of us who are parents and grandparents need to remember that we must instill the proper values in our children and not abdicate our responsibilities as parents.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LOL. Those metal detectors make me want to root for the state of Pennsylvania in advent of a fiscal crisis. Actually, I'd really like to see SEPTA take over the school district, and pay all of its costs by not paying consultants like Urban Engineers anything to screw up our rail system. Everyone would be happier then than they are now except for Dave Hornbeck and the people who work for Urban Engineers.
[anyone is welcome to check the DVARP website for more information. Also, check Urban Engineer's Schuylkill Valley Metro website and decide for yourself which is better.
AMEN, I agree with you 100%
Peace,
ANDEE
I had a funny dream last night, it was December of this year, and I my second avenue line has been approved. Then we jump to October 28, 2004 and we are at 42nd street on my second avenue line. I don't know how it got finished in 3 years; my dreams are getting weird! A lot of things have happened.
1. Heypaul managed to become the president of the MTA.
2. Heypaul asked David Pirmann if nycsubway.org would become the official New York City subway site. Also he offered David $2200 a month. To keep the site maintained.
3. The subway has become graffiti free.
4. All stations have been completely rehabilitated.
5. The new lines are the V, X, P, Y, O. I don't know what the colors were, or their destinations.
6. Salaamallah has managed to cancel the R-142 order, and he made an order for cars that are identical, the only difference is that the body is made out of stainless steel, and modern technology has been incorporated.
7. My line has been completed.
8. I am the vice pres. of the MTA.
Weird Right?
Christopher Rivera
wrong !! the 142s were american made and they were identical replacements to the redbirds !!
wrong !! the 142s were american made and they were identical replacements to the redbirds !!..
an interesting dream christopher...
i like your seeing me as president of the mta...
i think one of the first things i would do would be to make transit transit into a daily show... but it would be downbeat instead of upbeat... there would be a daily "president of the mta speaks his mind" feature in which i would express my negativity about life... we would go to parts of the city that nobody would have any interest ... we would interview customers who had nothing to say...i personally would prepare study segments for promotional exams which would have no relation to the actual exams...
there would be live segments during which we would shut down entire subway divisions to see how people would react... or have all local trains make express stops only, and have all express trains make local stops only...
Heypaul, would you issue an edict calling for restoration of field shunting?:-)
no, i would not try to increase the speed of the cars... if anything i would drop the maximum speed of the cars down to about 20 mph to irritate railfans even more...
Whatever he does, if it goes against my word, he will no longer be known from (the pigs will be in power and I will be their leader). I shall never restore field shunting, since all trains will be retrofitted with AC motors, except for the R-33S and the R-32GE which will be scrapped.
Getting home from the Island last night I saw the electronic sign that is set up on the Bronx-bound side of the Throggs Neck Bridge. The sign advertises the use of EZ-PASS.
This sign is electronic and it is able to print out many different colors inlcuding blue, green, red, and purple.
A while ago it was discussed on this board why the R-142 can only have a red LED display. This may be a dumb question, but is it possible to have a display on the R-142 that is a much smaller version of the EZ Pass sign on the TN bridge? That way all route colors can be displayed. Just wondering. Thanks.
Blue LEDs are possible, but significantly more expensive than red and
green ones. (R & G are on the order of a penny; B on the order of
a dollar. Prices are coming down steadily, however). So it's not
a technology problem - it's an economic one.
My favortite A division Elevated Track is the Track M on the Flushing Line. But the favorite underground Xpress Track is the Bway 7th avenue 2 Train. for some reason, the 2 is faster than the 3. This goes to show u new isn't always better. Also, for the 142 experts, will the 142's go that fast 2 on the 2? On the B-Division, My favorite express is the A's CPW. those R44's are WHOA!!!. One thing though, What is the Top speed of those R44's? on my last Railfan Trip to Far Rockaway, between Broad Channel and N Conduit, I could have swore we were above 50. The M/M and all the passengers were Bouncing up and down. The 2nd favorite Express is on the E queens bound between Roosevelt and Continental. It isn't first place, because I hate how when u get out of Woodhaven Boulevard, the Train slows because it goes up hill. Plus there is an annoyign curve after Grand Avenue which has M/M's slowing down, becuase there is 2 Repeater Automatic's which are yellow, and the following is red until u slow down.
The R-44s were originally designed for the 2nd Ave line (please don't start another thread on that!), which in turn would have permitted speeds of up to 70 mph. One test train got up to 87 mph on the LIRR. They were limited to 50 mph on existing lines, and with the recent state of affairs, they've been slowed down even more. The most I've seen the R-44s get up to has been 42-43 mph on the downhill run from 50th to 42nd Sts. along 8th Ave., and 40 along Fulton St. Alas, along CPW, they're hard pressed to get past 35 mph. I haven't ridden on them out to the Rockaways, so I can't say what they can muster out there. I know all too well what the R-10s could do, though.
The 7th Ave. express run is a good one, although I can't totally agree with your observation about the 2 being faster than the 3. Sometimes, maybe. I was on a southbound 3 train last October which raced past 50th St. at 47 mph and kept right on going. OTOH, the year before I was on a southbound 2 which took the 7th Ave. straightaway smoooooth as silk, yet cruised just the same.
Several Subtalkers say they've been on 4 and even 5 trains which screamed along Lexington Ave.; however, I haven't been so lucky yet. Well, the 5 train I was on back in August of 1967 really moved, but that was when trains in general were faster.
The CPW express run is my favorite for mostly sentimental reasons. I still say an express dash along that stretch on the R-10s topped them all. The R-38s are OK, and at least you get a nice view, but the excitement just isn't there anymore.
YES! YES! YES!
Between TSQ and 72nd, no express ride in NYC beats the #2. That's the one thing about the Redbirds I'll miss-the railfan windows.
If you can get a good driver on a Redbird #4, then you will get a great express run. Lexington Avenue was designed for express service, and if you get an R-62 #4 prepare for an unforgetable experience because the R-62 was meant for speed, especially with a driver who loves to takes the trains to their limit. The 4 leaves every other express in the dust. I would love to see an R-10 vs an R-62. Maybe someday, maybe someday.
Christopher Rivera
So .......... in order to shoot express track for the # 2 # 4 # 5 # 7 ( redbird service ) i would have to shoot
each expres track train .......... ONE every day !!........ It would take four days in a row to do this right ???
.......... ( each 8mm 150 in the lp mode lasts 5 hours !!...............since this fall is the final for redbirds ! right ??
I AM ASKING THIS BECAUSE I NED THIS INFORMATION ...!! ( thank you ).......
Yeah it will take 4 days.
right !!................exactly what i thought !!........( thank you )...........
So .......... in order to shoot express track for the # 2 # 4 # 5 # 7 ( redbird service ) i would have to shoot
each expres track train .......... ONE every day !!........ It would take four days in a row to do this right ???
.......... ( each 8mm 150 in the lp mode lasts 5 hours !!...............since this fall is the final for redbirds ! right ??
I AM ASKING THIS BECAUSE I NEED THIS INFORMATION ...!! ( thank you ).......
Being forty-something, I had to whip out my 'hip-hop' dictionary to realize that you mean the "meanest, badddasss subway line" (my generations terminology).
I'd have to agree with you that the Rockaway line really kicks it up a couple of notches as far as speed is concerned on a straight-away.
Underground, I'm not much of an expert since the BMT lines (mostly outside) are my favs. Last time I rode the Lex Express the 62's did haul-ass pretty well, IMHO.
Doug aka BMTman
Yo, the wackest express run has gotta be da Brighton line, son. That sh*t be jettin' on the da Q-ball, if ya know what I mean ...
English: The Brighton line is really fast. Those Q trains really move.
Oy Vey!!!
LOL!!!
;-)
Every since I moved in with my relatives In Mt. Vernon I've had to commute on either th 2 or the 5 (from 241 St.) And I can tell you the Thru bronx 5 is the one I take over the 2. Between 42 Grand Central and 149ST Grand Concourse. The 5 beats the 2 hands down. One day I had the opritunity to talk to the TO one day and I witnessed the Speed indicator hit 47mph, while on another day (with the same TO but we were on the 2) 45mph was the fastest he could hit. It all in how the TO drives the Train but still my commute on the 5 beats the hell out of the 2 (pardon my language)
Well the 2 will be the express run in the Boogie Down in a couple of months......
3TM
LMAO LOL. Mr. R16, u r mad crazy, son!!!!!!
3TM
True dat, G.
Yep, they sure do.
By boro:
Crooklyn(Bucktown, Brooklyn Zoo): Brighton line, Fulton Line.
Money-Making Manhattan: Lex, 7Av, CPW
The Q boro: Flushing, Queens Blvd
Boogie Down: White Plains Rd Line, Pelham Line
3TM
The 2 seems faster because it's rickety and noisy. The 3 is smooth.
What the hell does illest mean? Does it mean the same thing as madd?
I was wondering about the word "illest" as well. How can an express track be ill?
some express tracks were terminally "ill" by 1980. Which led to lots of derailments ...
So I hear. I was still coming down to the city every so often in 1980, and didn't notice any reduced speeds in Manhattan. On the West Side IRT, the 2 and 3 trains still raced along Broadway and 7th Ave. D trains rocketed down 6th Ave. between 34th and W. 4th Sts., including R-27/30s carrying DD signs. The CPW express dash was no different, except the R-10s were no longer running on the A except for a very occasional train or two. I left for Colorado in September of that year, and missed the period when the system hit rock bottom.
ill means madd, cool, groovy, awesome, gnarley, etc.
he dosent know ...........and living in new york !! i heard this expression back in 1985 in atlanta ...!!
( illen ) youd be illin .........etc...........
you mean mad and gnarly.
no, maD means angry. MadD means crazy, extensive, abundant, etc. It's similiar to fat, which with an "f" means overweight, but with a "ph" (phat) means meens cool, nice, acceptable, etc.
And that's enough for today's class in ebonics grammar 101.
OH, Joy!! ebonics. Right out of the cesspool of San Francisco, Oakland. Proof positive that every crazy idea in the USA starts in California.
As a friend on mine says, "Do not curse at me in a foreign language."
It' not ebonics, it's the lingo of those who follow rap and 'hip-hop' culture.
Just like 'cool', 'groovy', and 'far-out' were the lingo of the 60's generation.
Ebonics is actually more related to the traditional Southern US dialect that blacks AS WELL AS whites born in the southern states have grown up with.
Doug aka BMTman
[Just like 'cool', 'groovy', and 'far-out' were the lingo of the 60's generation.]
If you watch the Brady Bunch on Nick at Night, sooner or later you'll hear Mrs. Brady describe something as "groovy." Boy, does that ever sound obsolete :-)
Maybe "dated" is a better word. On the old Dick Van Dyke show, they went to great lengths to avoid using any language which would make the show seem dated.
That was the problem with 'All in the Family', and other 70's sitcoms that used current events or political subject matters for their plots: times change, and the shows become dated.
A very good case in point where a show's premise was changed to eliminate the 'dated' problem: the long-running sci-fi show, "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea". Originally it was shot in black & white and the stories had 'cold war' themes (I remember one was based on 'Fail Safe'). After the first year or two of that show it focused less on political themes and more on outer-space weirdness, mad-scientists, and sea monsters. The producers realized that if a series were to survive in syndication you had to drop topical subjects and make the program seem 'timeless.'
Doug aka BMTman
A most astute observation, my friend.
Peace,
ANDEE
Here's a piece of trivia: Ebonics comes from the first part of the word `ebony' and the second part of the word `phoics'.
Now take the last part of the word `ebony' and the first part of the word `phonics' put them together and see what you get.
It's also called "black dialect" by some very insane people. Basically, it's street talk which is unacceptable everywhere else. Any educator who thinks it's an acceptable form of english that should be taught in school is doing a great diservice to the children they educate.
>>for some reason, the 2 is faster than the 3.
Because the 2 is the redbird.
On several accounts and in several work areas like Whitehall Street(N,R) or the 36-Queens plaza Tunnel, I have seen Work Trains. The diesels that is. Are they dual mode? or do they put diesel out even when in the ground?
They are single mode. They run the diesels in the tunnel-noisy and smelly.
Not all of them. There are some dual-mode work locos. These are generally the 'EL' engines, as opposed to the 'OL' engines. You really can't run electric work trains, because the power is generally shut off when work is being done.
-Hank
Anyone have info about the Newark subway extension? Where will the line be extended to?
NJ transit saids it may go as far as Bloomfield.
It will. The new maintenance facility is there.
I think I also heard it will go to Newark Broad St. RR Station. I've no idea how.
Probably extension from Penn Station (the loop would be broken). I don't have a map of Newark (I've never seen one!) So I don't know the feasibility of this.
I once read plans for a street running LR in Newark connecting the two stations and the AIRPORT. I also saw a map in The New York Times showing a subway extension in the street down to the sports center proposed south of Penn.
You heard it here FIRST ... from a TA letter dated April 17th ...
There's a new "TransitChek" comming out. For thoses that don't know, currently you can either get a physical check or a MetroCard ... it's grey & red. The new one, I have a sample, says "Premium" and it's yellow and red. What is happening is that regular folks can get what Seniors & Disabled have now, a "E-Z-Pass" type MC, i.e. it will be a monthly unlimited (local) MC that gets automatically re-charged for a year. There will also be a special number to call if it's lost or stolen.
The plan: 20 test cards out April 20th, first 1,000 real cards out June 1st. Mine is a sample sent to our VP, which I ask him to give to me once he & the staff saw it (he knows I'm a collector).
Disclaimer: This is not a official anouncement by the MTA, TA, or nycDOT, just a collector talking to his friends.
Mr t__:^)
Right! and... we can not, repeat can not, fix it at the booth. ANY problems you call the 800 number and yes you have to pay $1.50 to get it that time.
I guess the debut of those cards will probably coincide with the new R-142's.
[ANY problems you call the 800 number and yes you have to pay $1.50 to get it that time.]
Asked the author of the TA letter about the $1.50 charge, BTW I told him I got this off the internet from one of HIS Station Agents who actually reads everything that they send to the Token Booths, anyhow ... here's the deal:
- Lost/Stolen "Premium" TransitCheks aren't handeled by the Jay Street office AND they don't want you to mail it in (if it's damaged). You have to walk-in to the 1 Center Street office ... so a $1.50 cost to get there, BUT the cost doesn't stop here, your new/replacement card doesn't come to the beginning of the next month !
- That was the bad news, here's the good news ... your card is good for a year, you get a new one every year you stay with the program on the issuance anniversity, i.e. not grouped on Jan 1st or some other date.
The TA person at 130 Livingston Plaza updated me via e-mail ... more and more of the folks I deal with are starting to do the same. I also suggested that he try SubTalk.
Disclaimer: I didn't divulge the true identy of our friend and am NOT advocating that you sign up for this new card ... just passing on information.
Mr t__:^)
jersey mike... you promised me that if i came back to subtalk, that i would win all the subtalker of the year awards, with the exception of most boring, for which there is a dead heat among 20 people...
so when are you going to announce the results?? it's not like you're having to enumerate the national census... you had your whole spring break a couple of weeks ago... are you afraid of the reaction which will accompany my winning all categories except most boring?
LOL
Didn't I explain this in my e-mail? Like nobody gave me any nominations for the Best Subtalker or best thread categories so I am going to have to wing it. I am trying to get a feel who should win by continued observation. BTW you are not even nominated for best subtalker, only most humorous along with avid and Pigs, but I'll just write you in. How's that?
I proudly nominate myself for Subtalker of the year. Anyone with enough guts to adopt the R16 in his handle deserves it.
Well without a doubt if SubTalker of the year is based upon the NUMBER of postings and NOT CONTENT (or comprehension thereof) I must submit the name of salaam allah as the winner. I believe no one has posted more times then him.
heypaul comes in somewhere behind Eugenuis D. Train (now Pigs of Royal Island).
Doug aka BMTman
NO..!!!!! ( please leave me out of this ) ..................!!!
salaam allah is in the running for the award that in a nice way says "Most Annoying/antagonistic/arguementitive etc. However that new guy, Mr. "Subway Crash means more money", is really starting to piss me off. I have never felt this way before about anyone, but just that handle really sets me off.
leave me out of this please ! ( thank you )........
In other words, you respectfully decline the honor.
leave me out of this sir !! i respectifully decline ( thank you ) ..............
Here is the same person who is now starting his own threads on the subject
peace,
ANDEE
.......andee..!!............peace and how are you doing toiday ?.....I dont take any of this stuff as serious as some do etc.............
come on man people who dont show thier faces etc... hide behind thier e mail and ""handles ""........
which changes with every post and then they hide behind ""killfiles" then decide what format this subtalk
and are not even the webmaster owner !!..........except for ""posts"" thats it with them they dont do anything else !!!!!
and so to """"lighten up """ let off some steam & laugh it off etc.... why not let them throw stones thinking
they are hitting me only to be the nuts they are ( to whom this is for )
remember the saying if the shoe fits put it on ?? ..... check this out .... if you want to make them stark raving MAD...
just say the words ...............RAILFAN-WINDOW-VIDIEO.......!!.
I hear U JUST DO ME A FAVOR... please, the correct spelling iS VIDEO,
Thanks & Peace,
ANDEE
the word is spelled vidieo right ?? thats how i spelled it why are you getting on your screen ...iS VIDEO, .. ??
I back checked this post and it looked ok to me ..........right ??
I wonder if I was nominated for something good. I wonder who will be the best subtalker. But the only thing I am worried about is that we might have a Subway Award War once the results come out. But then again I might be wrong, after all we are all peaceful people.
Christopher Rivera
come to think of it christopher... maybe you should be nominated as subtalker of the year... you seem to have a good heart and mind, and have spent a lot of time and energy working on your plans for the 2nd avenue subway... you have never gotten involved in any of the mudslinging that goes on here, despite my best efforts to bring about peace and goodwill....
my nominating you has nothing at all to do with the heypaul construction company receiving the $8 billion dollar contract for the construction of the 2nd ave subway line...
[my nominating you has nothing at all to do with the heypaul construction company receiving the $8 billion dollar contract for the construction of the 2nd ave subway line...]
I really should sic Mark Green on you for that remark....but the guys' such a lame-o lately that he'd likely screw up the whole investigation anyway. ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
| r142|-| r142 |-| r142 |-| r142 |-| r142 |-| r142 |
scrapyard
| r142 |-| r142 |-| r142 |-| r142 || r142 |-| r142 |
thanks to joanne for technical help
best pics on nyc subway resources !! ...........right on heypaul ......!!!...............142.s ............{ SCRAP}...!!!!
How about a crusher then you can recycle and turn it into your next motorcycle
I need to learn how to shift gears .......then i am ready to go with the recycled SCRAP 142s ..converted
into a motorcycle .............or refabricate a brand new R 26-thru36 style........"REDBIRD"".....!!!
redbird......!!.......check this out and check out the next chain of hate threads against us...!!
Last I checked, the score was
RedbirdFans 5
r142ers 0
i agree even the rap stars feature redbirds on thier covers................no r 142s.......!!
You need to grow a brain cell in that mushroom orf yours.
-Hank
check the score...... the r 142 fans are losing !! ......now go back and wed out your own mushrooms !! ( salaamallah)
I've already made South Ferry the second person in my killfile.
good ! hide from everybody !
Actually I am not really too fond of both of these. I think it's just time for the Redbirds to get the heave-ho for more "modern"-looking types. On the other hand, the r-142 seats are limited and places to hold onto might be a problem.
Solution: Exterior uses R-142's, Interior uses ... R-142's but with more seats and places to hold onto ... ha! Not sure about the engine if in fact R-142's are reliable as some folks are doubting.
WHAT, a styrofoam motorcycle?!
i see your point....................it would not work !!
Who was the wise person that posted the message with the R-142 in large letters in the page and "scrapyard" in red letters.
Jeff Alterman a.k.a. BMTJeff
You know what, Lemme ask one question. Why is there so much hate for the R142s, I just dont understand ya'll!
R142 Boi 2K
The R142s are coming and the Redbirds are going!
LET IT GO! TOO BAD SO SAD!
R142 Boi 2K
The thing that I hate the most is that it provokes response by Salami the Subway Pornographer. Since there are quite a few people who still believe that any sort of useful discourse is possible with him, people actually respond to his drivel and I get it in my message index.
i am not your salami.................... and i do not shoot child porn vidieos like you ......................
as ususl you resort to........FLAMAGE - AD HOMINEM- ATTACKS- AND -INSULTS
there was no truth to your last post it did however say everything about you !!.........
Amen! R142's are coming to my home line, the #2, and when I go back home to the Bronx and I'm going to welcome them with open arms. I'm not going to miss the Redbirds when they're gone. I don't care what the anti-R142 club thinks. Modern subway cars are long overdue on the #2 line! So are more modern signals, which are finally coming to White Plains Road.
Amen! R142's are coming to my home line, the #2, and when I go back home to the Bronx and I'm going to welcome them with open arms. I'm not going to miss the Redbirds when they're gone. I don't care what the anti-R142 club thinks. Modern subway cars are long overdue on the #2 line! So are more modern signals, which are finally coming to White Plains Road.
this fall put my vidieo camera inside the r-142 !! see you there !!
otherwise i will be forced to shoot with the last of the redbirds !!
04/24/2000
[Amen! R142's are coming to my home line, the #2, and when I go back home to the Bronx and I'm going to welcome them with open arms.]
How do you welcome an R-142 with "open arms", won't that hurt?
Bill Newkirk
hope you like your new styrofoam cars !!
Well, you could greet them as they pull into your station. That's what I do when I see a train of Redbirds (hello, Redbirds, hello Redbirds).
I'm keeping mum about the R-142s until I have a chance to ride on them. Let's give them a chance.
Well I didn't literally mean that. I'm just going to be glad to see them.
first of all i want to say what a fine excellent transit site trevor logan has !.........right on my black brother !!
I dont hate the r -142s......... but i cant shoot a railfan vidieo with it !! ........... ( transverse cab car club )..............!!
which means i only have this fall to shoot # 2#4#5#7...... and after that unless i can get inside the closed off cab...
then my railfan vidieos will be golden pieces of recorded final history ........and the last of the classic new york subway cars !!........
the 142s spell the doom of this ......!! bombardiner ( or however you spell it ) .....is not like the ACF and St Louis car co
and BUDD and many others who made and built the great subway cars.... made in .........AMERICA !........
Technically, you mean made in the United States of America. Canada is part of America, as is Mexico and all those other countries.
.........ok i was saying like.....pressed steel .........american foundry etc..........budd car........ st louis car...........
north america U.S.A. make & made........ and so the U.S.A. cant make a subway car anymore ??........what...??
04/22/2000
I don't know the reason for this. The R-44 was made by St.Louis Car Co. and thus ceased making passenger cars. Although it was mentioned here they still make freight cars.
Then R-46's were made by Pullman-Standard, after that they went belly up. Can't explain that, perhaps it was timing? Now with LRV's being added to the mix, these manufacturers are needed now more than ever. I heard that Budd's Philadelphia plant stands abandoned. The temple of car building that produced the Zephry, The R-11, The RDC's and the R-32......SHAME......SHAME..!!
Bill Newkirk
the reason that all those carbuilders are gone is that America no longer produces great corporate managers. enterprenuers who sell the American people out for a quick buck are what the business schools are puking out today. I think Slick Willy is working with Wall Street to move some US jobs to Cuba -- that's why he is sending Elian back. well, I think COMMUNIST China's gonna bite back and nationalize everything owned by foreign companies in China -- So Much for the GLOBALONEY if the American people don't doesn't wake up real soon and matrix regulate international trade and banking, democracy's finished FOREVER
St. Louis Car doesn't make anything. There is no more St. Louis Car. ACF, however, still makes freight cars.
David
heypaul...you ARE a piece of work 8-)
.......................................................?.............................................................!!
u mean for the old discombobulated redbirds. get over it man the redbirds are no better than the R142's! stop talking crap until u've seen the whole thing dud!
04/20/2000
Seen today on the southbound station at 149th & Grand Concourse (formerly Mott Haven). #2 train (redbirds) with green and white markers, green one was over motormans cab.
Seen a few weeks ago on the #7 on several occassions, red and white markers, white over MM cab. What gives? are we returning to the color marker system?
Bill Newkirk
Probably a nostagic motorman...
-Hank
I also saw a 6 train with green and red. (I think it was green and red)
Clark Palicka
And there's at least one No 2 motorman who runs with white/red markers. Wonderful, but what happens when the redbirds get junked?
Apparently nothing. Marker lights aren't officially used anymore; ordinarily, they are set to red-red on the Redbirds. I never paid any attention to them 30 years ago, much to my regret. Back in 1984, I wrote down as many different combinations as I could see.
every once in a while you see a train with a red and white, but there doesn't seem to be any pattern to it,
Thought I saw a red/green on a #6 Redbird (#8620) during one of my trips last year.
Wayne
Saw Red-Green on a 6 too. Earlier this month.
Wayne: You did see a red/green sign on a Redbird. Wasn't it a year of two ago during the Lenox Av rehab that the #2 trains ran via 7 Avenue in one direction and Lexington Av in the other. They carried a spilt sign reading #2 to Bklyn and #5 to The Bronx and #2 to The Bronx/#5 to Bkyln or something very similar. They were green on one side and red on the other.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, I saw that side destination sign on numerous Redbirds during the Lenox Avenue Rehabilitation project. The odd color marker I saw was on the #6 line, green and red marker lights where I normally see red/red or red/white.
Wayne
I don't think we saw anything unusual during our expedition last fall. I know I haven't seen any marker light combination other than red-red in years.
You're correct; it was during one of my other trips, earlier in the year. It was sitting at Parkchester.
Wayne
We never did catch the marker lights of that 5 train we boarded at 86th St. If you recall, it was in the station when we reached the platform, and so we boarded the fifth or sixth car and marched all the way to the railfan window. That was great, the three of us going single file from car to car. I still have second thoughts about doing that while the train is moving, but I managed.
I have seen them too on the 2 line as well.......
3TM
149th and Grand Concourse is formerly Mott Avenue. 138 is formerly Mott Haven.
The official TA procedeure by memorandum/bulletin is markers red/red. Many red lens' are missing, so you see the white light bulb.
04/21/2000
[The official TA procedeure by memorandum/bulletin is markers red/red. Many red lens' are missing, so you see the white light bulb.]
Maspeth Bill,
What about the green marker I saw? I believe those marker lenses are clear since red, amber, green and white have to show through. The markers I mean are the top ones, the bottom markers are red indeed.
Bill Newkirk
The red bulbs maybe burned out (if they use different color bulbs like PATH).
No, they used a single light bulb on each side. The motorman just turned a lever which had a red, white and yellow lens. The outside lens is white.
a motorman showed me how you reach inside and flip around any color filter you want on any redbird
and or any r38 type and older ( if equipped with such ) .... filters can be switched and flipped around from white red yellow blue green etc....... like a show business trooper with switch - able color filters ( on some models only ).....................
museum trains have this right next to the paper roll sign.......... like buses used to have !! ( example ) etc...........
you know what i mean .....vern......?????
and or any r38 type and older ( if equipped with such ) .... filters can be switched and flipped
around from white red yellow blue green etc....... like a show business trooper with switch -
There are no blue marker lights, salaamallah. The colors are
red, yellow, green and white. On R10-R38 there is a carousel
with the four colored lenses, and the bulb in the middle. On
the R1-9s there are a series of paddles which can be slid in
front of the bulb to set the color.
ok the green almost looked blue inside the roll cab.........especially the yellow paint inside the roll paper etc... you know ........
Is there any difference between the two ? they seem to be from the same MFG.. etc..........
both appear to be ""people movers "" i have only rode on the 50c ride in detroit !!
Anyone out there who ride on both ?? And if you did your comments please ?
If you only rode the vancouver sky train please post how it was also...... ( thank you )...
While I can't offer a comparison, I have ridden on Vancouver's "Skytrain" in 1986, as well as 1997 and 1999.
The service was VERY frequent, even into the late hours of night. The trains were clean, and at times VERY crowded, again, even into the late night hours. I don't think I have seen anything but four-car trains (two married-pairs on each). When accelerating, the cars make a very unusual sound, and I would guess that they travel at up to 55 miles an hour. The suspension bridge on the eastern end of the line is absolutely beautiful! The yard and service facility is a little bit west of the town of New Westminster. (I forget the station names that are on either side of it.)
Although the trains are clean inside and out, that storm door window in the car ends always seems to be covered with squashed bugs. But there's a nice fold-down seat in the aisleway for fans to use while watching the right-of-way.
The cars on Skytrain appear to be the same ones in use on the Detroit Peoplemover as well as the Scarborough RT line in the Toronto area. Not sure, but I think the Scarborough trains actually have a train operator on board.
wow !! ..... bugs in the windshield .... be sure to bring off insect repellent .......!!! ( thank you ) ....
in detroit the married pair goes around the same loop .. two of them at oppisite ends two trains total !! unmanned
and controlled by some computer program etc.........
Skytrain technology is what is supposed to used for the Airtrain.
-Hank
The cars on Skytrain appear to be the same ones in use on the Detroit Peoplemover as well as the Scarborough RT line in the Toronto area. Not sure, but I think the Scarborough trains actually have a train operator on board.
The SRT trains do indeed carry an operator. The operator does little more than hitting a 'start' button to tell the train when to close the doors and proceed to the next station.
The only major difference between the SRT and the Skytrain is that the SRT carries an operator and the Skytrain is ZPTO. The systems are otherwise identical.
P.S. IIRC, the Skytrain is a Bombardier product.
CH.
The Scarborough RT was the first "Skytrain" (ICTS technology) line open for passenger use. Due to a number of reasons present at the time the line was constructed, the trains were outfitted with proper cabs and are staffed by operators despite the fact that the Scarborough RT is exactly like every other ICTS line in existance: the trains are automatically controlled by computer, but can be driven manually if necessary, in emergency situations etc. Since the Scarborough RT ICTS cars are equipped with full operators' cabs, they also have proper driving controls, wheras the ICTS cars in use in Vancouver and probably Detroit have the minimal driving controls necessary to operate the train.
Scarborough RT operators just sit in their cab and don't do much more than announce the stations over the train's PA system (there is no automated announcement system on the Scarborough RT), unless an emergency arises or a breakdown occurs. Because the Scarborough RT was the first line of its type, there were teething problems with the technology, and it is unreliable when there is a large snow fall due to the proximity of the linear induction motors beneath the car to the reaction rail, breakdowns do happen.
The sound of the propulsion electronics when the trains start and stop is definately unique to the ICTS trains.
-Robert King
Hey folks
I was walking around 103rd street on Riverside park earlier today and noticed 2 tracks in a tunnel which was directly underneath Riverside park. Anybody know what ran here, because I assume it's abandoned, must have been for decades.
It's not subway, and it's not abandoned. It's the former NYC West Side Freight line, which is now owned by Amtrak as part of their Empire Corridir service. The line allows trains that run through Albany to access Penn Station.
-Hank
This is the Amtrak West side line. It branches off the Hudson line (shared with Metro North) near Spuyten Duyvil in the Bronx and runs directly to Penn Station. In Northen Manhattan, parts are actually open cut, a la the Sea Beach line. It's unelectrified and is used exclusively by diesel trains coming from Albany. I made a proposal a few months back about having it electrified and using it for some surplus Metro North service to Penn Station to ease the congestion at Grand Central.
Oh ok, I was wondering what the hell that was, Tanx :) My mom and I used to walk to riverside park to stand near the Hudson river, she always went there with my grandfather, as a little girl. I went there today as a little joyride after doing research @ the NYPL. I took the 3 @ Penn Station to 96th, walked to 103rd, walked to Central Park West to take the B to 59th, then the 3 back to Penn Station to stnd outside the Garden and smoke a cigarette, then the 1 to the 7 to Queens. Fun huh?
[I made a proposal a few months back about having it electrified and using it for some surplus Metro North service to Penn Station to ease the congestion at Grand Central.]
You and about a million other people--it's actually in the works, but there's no capacity at Penn now.
Funny, I've never heard anyone else propose it, but it's a relatively simple idea which I'm sure anyone with some intelligence could come up with.
[Funny, I've never heard anyone else propose it, but it's a relatively simple idea which I'm sure anyone with some intelligence could come up with.]
The plan for some time has been to bring MN into Penn Station after the LIRR-GCT tunnel opens up capacity. More recently, there's been talk of building a new MN terminal by Javits.
My own spin: divert some MN traffic to the West Side, opening up two of the Park Avenue tracks. Make some of the service dual mode and run it through the underutilized A tunnel for direct MN service to the WTC. Then run Bronx superexpress service and dual mode Metro North service via Park Avenue, going into the Broadway BMT tunnel at 63rd Street and proceeding downtown via the express tracks. The empty tracks would be filled by LIRR trains entering via the RR level of the 63rd Street tunnel, saving perhaps $4 billion of the $4.8 billion LIRR GCT access project and providing a nicer facility (the lower level at GCT rather than the dismal modern annex that they're planning).
There have been a couple of pieces on Public Ed. TV of the folks that live there ... paintings on the walls, etc. In one segment a Amtrak goes by.
Mr t__:^)
while in another part of town
from another era........................
with no air conditioning..............
with no flourescent lighting........
with no hard plastic seats...........
but with wicker seats...................
with incandescent light bulbs.....
with ceiling fans.................
and with a railfan window
|low v|-|low v|-|low v|-|low v|-|low v|-|low v|
graveyard
|low v|-|low v|-|low v|-|low v|-|low v|-|low v|
yea railfan window-------------right on heypaul !!
Your post has done nothing more than to prove that newer is better.
EVERYTHING in your post has shown all that is bad about the old cars.
Does anybody know a model railroad manufacturer that has come out with scale model of Philadelphia Budd Market-Frankford subway cars? I'm interested in "O" scale, but I'll settle for "HO". The "Almond Joys" has always been my favorite fleet, but they're almost gone. Thanx.
They are gone. Unless you hang out around the yards.
I recall someone posting here a few months ago that a SEPTA Transit Museum employee told them the Transit Musuem would be selling them in a year.
Its official!! A few weeks ago, I posted that Clark St might close. Its a reality. From April 28 to August. Saw it on my 3 train to work today.........
3Train"Not Stopping At Clark St"Mike
That's cos the mungey old elevator there is about to give up the ghost so they need a new one. There's no stairway out of there that's fit for everyday passengers to use. I can just see the rush hour crowd trying to negotiate the emergency stairs. It's worse than the Statue of Liberty in there and just about as far down.
Wayne
04/20/2000
Wasn't Clark St. closed several years for a station rehab? Wouldn't it have made sense to redo the platform and elevators at the same time? STUPID ME! I'm making sense again!
Bill Newkirk
Yes, they did a rehab of the entrance passageway, the platform surfaces, the lighting, they even buffed up the mosaics on the trackside walls. But replace the elevator? NOT.
Strange station. To enter, you must first go into the lobby of the St. George Hotel. The token booth and faregates are actually inside the hotel building proper.
Wayne
Clark Street was one of the first stations rehabilitated under the MTA Capital Program, in the early 1980s. At the time, the elevators were just over 20 years old and were probably considered too new to be eligible for replacement.
David
They were replaced before then, they took out the manual elevators that were there when the Hotel was a real Hotel. So 20 years on a converted manual to automagic elevator the TA wouldn't replace!!
Information I have (from NYCT[A], dated 1982) says the elevators dated from 1962.
David
The St. George Hotel, eh? The NY Philharmonic made several recordings there when Bernstein took over as music director. Maybe the Manhattan Center wasn't available... Wonder if the musicians got there by subway. Didn't that hotel have a salt water pool?
Didn't that hotel have a salt water pool?
I recall swimming in the pool (probably late 50s or early 60s), but don't remember it being salt water, just regular chlorinated swimming pool water.
-- Ed Sachs
Yes there was a salt water pool at one time, according to several histories. Near as I can tell there were many more pools in Brooklyn in the 1940s and 1950s than there are today, along with supermarkets, department stores, banks, entertainment venues, and God knows what else.
I thought that saltwater pools were for cruise ships to save money on the on-board desalinization plant.
The St George Pool was a great place in the 50s. There also was a salt water pool at Brighton Beach(Private) at the end of Coney Island Ave by the Boardwalk in Brighton Bedach. is it still there? Also in the 50s there were more small Grocery stores like Key Food, Dilberts Etc. The only Supermarkets that I remember were Waldbaums and A & P, and later the Big Apple.
Another salt water pool was at Steeplechase Park in Coney Island. There was a pool/beach club adjacacent to (attached to) the amusement park, which piped the pool water in directly from the ocean.
-- Ed Sachs
Lets not forget the one at Palisades Park. Although I was never there, their commercials never let you forget they had the worlds largest salt water pool.
That doesn t count, you can t take a subway there directly,
Maybe not, but you got a great view of Manhattan from the Sky Ride or any of the Ferris wheels. IIRC, there were buses from both Port Authority and the GWB Bus Terminal which went to Palisades.
I remember seeing the salt water pool at Palisades, but didn't swin in it.
I believe the St. George Hotel in Brooklyn used to have a salt water pool. I think I read something when I was a kid to the fact that Pee Wee Reese used to swim there in his spare time when not playing ball for the Dodgers.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, it had been noted that Johnny Weissmeuller (sp?) stayed in shape for his 'Tarzan' role by doing laps at the St. George pool.
Doug aka BMTman
Roger Kahn mentions the St. George Hotel and the salt water pool near the epilogue in The Boys of Summer while describing his subway ride to where Ebbets Field used to be. He speaks of the train as being the New Lots local-express, which would have been a 2 train in 1970-71, IIRC.
Before Walbaums, I think that supermarket chain was called Bohack??
I also remember waiting with my mom in long lines at a store on either Fulton or Livingston Streets called Plaid Stamps. Wasn't that something like the now-defunct 'Consumers Merchandise' chain??
Doug aka BMTman
I think it was. I remember my grandmother telling me about those things (they still do it down south at the 'Piggly Wiggly')
I think you mixed up 2 chains, though. There was Consumers, which is now defunct, and Service Merchandise, which is still around. I hated those places. You pcked what you wanted from a catalog, and then sat around and waited for someone to call your order number.
-Hank
Which was ridiculously stupid, why not just order the catalog and do it from the comfort of one's own home.
There was one on the northwest corner of Avenue U and Mill Avenue in Brooklyn (odd 6100, even 2000). It's now a Genovese.
Yeah, the Consumer's at Ave. U in Mill Basin was the last one to hang on in Brooklyn as the chain went under...
I frequented one on Flatbush Avenue at The Junction (Brooklyn College).
(One of the things that I heard put them into the red was internal theft. Employees easily were able to shovel stocked merchandise into their trunks with little trouble. Did you ever notice how some of the most popular items were always 'Out-of-stock' or 'back-ordered'? That's because the employees got there first, so to speak...)
Doug aka BMTman
[I think you mixed up 2 chains, though. There was Consumers, which is now defunct, and Service Merchandise, which is still around. I hated those places. You pcked what you wanted from a catalog, and then sat around and waited for someone to call your order number.]
Service Merchandise ran into some financial trouble about a year ago and closed quite a few of its stores throughout the country. As far as I know, the worst is over now and there won't be many more closings.
The stores are run more in the conventional manner today. I can't say that the merchandise or prices are much better than you'll find in any number of other places, with the big exception of jewelery. Service Merchandise is actually the country's largest jewelery seller and has some terrific bargains.
None of the Piggly Wiggly stores in our area of North Carolina (there are only three within 30 miles) offer trading stamps. The last chain to do so was the Red and White in Zebulon, which offered Gold Bond stamps through the late '80s. Winn Dixie stores stopped issuing S&H Green Stamps in about 1982; Food Lion never did offer stamps, AFAIK, and the Colonial (later renamed Big Star, later sold to the Harris Teeter chain) was the home of Triple-S Blue Stamps until Winn Dixie quit the S&H Green Stamp program. None of the other chains except super-grungy Byrd's (who never gave anything away and who made their profit by in cashing in food stamps at a discount [according to the SBI]) were even in the local market ten years ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When I was in Savannah, GA 3 years ago, the Piggly-Wiggly there had 'Green Stamps' and catalogs.
-Hank
"Piggly Wiggly"
I really must shop there.
Go SOUTH YOUNG MAN GO DEEP SOUTH. In Hawaii they still give out stamps in some of the local market, you could save for merchandise which takes a year and a day, Or, each page is good as a cents off coupon on numerous advertised items of the week, Since only one paper in hawaii has a coupon section, that is the only other way to save some money, and sometimes you do if they have what you want.
That's not why, I don't care about these stamps.
The chain is called Piggly Wiggly!
Yeh, and they are closing almost 150 stores and letting go over 1000 people. Maybe The Food Lion is really hungry for the slimmy Pig and is trying to get rid of it the Safe-way via WALters-Mart.
sad to see he place close down after its rich history.
I was lucky enough to visit this station back in 1989 on my last visit to NY.
OHHH how I miss it.
M1 (The M1 and only)
I'll be down there in July, I'll get a picture of a REAL Piggly-Wiggly for you...
-Hank
Historically, the chain actually does have a place in retailing history -- it was the first to institute the `self service' (multiple checkout) system of grocery stores, way back in the late 1920s. Unfortunately, the company failed to see the mega-supermarket trend coming in the late 1970s, and had to retrench a lot since then. Kind of like the A&P's southern cousin, without the supposed union/mafia problems.
["Piggly Wiggly"
I really must shop there.]
You might find yourself as a $1.99 per pound special.
Maybe he'll wind up as a giveaway ham, like the one I had a steak of for dinner. Edwards' gave me a 11.5 lb. smoked ham for free, just for buying my groceries there five times in six weeks, something I do anyway. Yesterday I took the porker back to Edwards' and had the Butcher slice it into eight beautiful Ham Steaks (I would have done it myself, but the blade on my Sawz-All(TM) is a little dull). Popped one in the broiler for 45 min. - Dee-lish! Enough pigmeat to feed me, Rosemary and all five cats.
Wayne
Bohacks was a entirely different chain. Waldbaums has been around since WWI, different owners but same name.
Waldbaums was purchased by A&P in the early 80s. Now, when A&P opens a new supermarket in NYC, it depends on the neighborhood whether you get a Waldbaums or an A&P. Generally, it depends on how Jewish the neighborhood is, since Waldbaums has long been known in the Jewish community. In fact, they're the only supermarket on Staten Island with a Kosher deli department.
-Hank
Some Walbaums are kept open in Carribean-neighborhoods that were formerly heavily Jewish, like Flatbush. That's because many people from the islands enjoy deli-counter foods.
Doug aka BMTman
A little known fact about the St. George:
The St. George's saltwater pool attracted the attention of famed 'Tarzan' actor Johnny Weissmuller (sp?). Legend has it that JW was a regular resident of the St. George during it's heyday, and his star status is what gave the St. George a name.
BTW, the Brighton Beach Baths were recently razed to make room for new 'trendy' co-op apartments :-( (so goes another piece of Brighton/Coney Isle history...)
Doug aka BMTman
So many happy childhood summers at Brighton Private now history. Is there still a real Brooklyn? Hey Paul, you still live there tell me?
The elevator closest to the northwest wall definitely needs some fine tuning. The door closest so fast it could double for a car crusher. First time uses trying to get in at the last second get a rude surprise.
Sounds as if that elevator thinks it's got doors from an R-10.:-)
From the official list of G.O.s issued by Stations:
It will close at 10pm on 04/28/2000.
There will be shuttle bus service from Clark Street to Borough Hall (IRT/BMT Complex) from 6am to 10pm. When I see the pending bulletion on the Station I will post more info. based on past practice, they will close the booth during this time and they probably will have the bus running without the need for G.O. Tickets (Currently Liliac in color for subway, but the color will change on 7/1/2000.)
Once again, for my bus friend in Queens- these tickets if issued will NOT be good for your fleet but only on designated lines at designated locations. Let's ay for the sake of argument that thery'll be good on the B41 bus --it would be a two specific locations and not all locations on the B41- you could not use it on the Q25, BX12, M20, etc.
Of course, if there were two shuttle bus locations running and you somehow got to the other G.O. then the ticket could be used at the other shuttle bus site such as let's say Rockaway Blvd "A" Line.
Has anybody seen a subway ad with DC Metro. To me, the ad gives a message that NYC subway is not modern as the subways in other cities...........
3Train#2034Mike
[Has anybody seen a subway ad with DC Metro. To me, the ad gives a message that NYC subway is not modern as the subways in other cities.]
That ad and another were funded by the Straphanger's Coalition and the RPA. The MTA tried to ban one of them, but gave in under pressure--it's probably one of the things that got Pataki interested in pretending to build a full length Second Avenue subway.
There's the ad for the new golden dollar featuring George Washington the XIV in the Baltimore Metro.
So the New York subway system isn't spit-and-polish modern.
Perhaps the city should have told people in 1900 that the subway couldn't be built until the 1970's so that Straphangers could be happy?!
[So the New York subway system isn't spit-and-polish modern.
Perhaps the city should have told people in 1900 that the subway couldn't be built until the 1970's so that Straphangers could be happy?!]
Somehow I doubt that it ever occurred to them that the system would be using the same signal system 100 years hence.
Old is nice--those original IRT stations are nicer than anything built since--but decrepit sucks, and man, is the subway decrepit!
The ad is for bettertransit.org. Have anybody checked out the website????????
3TM
[The ad is for bettertransit.org. Have anybody checked out the website????????
3TM]
The URL leads to a website with some interesting information on it. There's a mailing list for volunteers, there are email writing forms for Patakia, Giuliani, and other officials, and there's a handy list of MTA executives in case you want to complain.
It's not; that's what makes it so great. (City Hall, S. Ferry, 168st, 181st. come to mind.) By the way, I've seen the new lights at 168st. I hate the new lights at 168st. The first time I actually have my camera to photograph it too. I will see if Photoshop can help remove those eyesores from pictures of an otherwise grand station.
I took the HBLR on it's opening day and I have 2 QUestions I how someone can answer. 1st: What Voltage does the overhead Cant use and is it AC (I would think so but you never know) and 2nd: On the opening day it was raining and the rails were wet. On and average day day would the weels squeel as much as say the 1/9 down by South Ferry or the 4/5 at Fulton St? I'm just currious mainly because of all those lame NIMBY Picket signs past the Martin Station.
1/9 at S. Ferry has a track sprayer. No more loud squeals.
04/22/2000
Also unless mentioned here, how about Grand Central on the (40(5)$(6), on curve north of the station. Sprayers are there too.
Bill Newkirk
I think the overhead is energized at 750 v D.C.
i rode the line again yesterday afternoon out to bayonne... on opening day, the cars were running doubleheaded... do they run doubleheaded during normal service?... can they triple head the cars?...
there were delays of up to 5 minutes at some of the street crossings coming out of exchange place...at one spot the regular traffic light did not change...
the operator called in to report it... i noticed the operator had a "call" button that he kept depressing as he came to an intersection?... is that suppose to affect the traffic lights... several people on the return trip seemed unaware of the need to validate tickets before you enter the cars... i was also surprised to see a bicyclist wheel his bike onto the car... i didn't notice any squealing of the wheels during the ride...
on my last trip out of exchange place last sat all the lights changed to clear as we approched. we flew out of town a blazing speed of 20 mph
04/20/2000
[on my last trip out of exchange place last sat all the lights changed to clear as we approched. we flew out of town a blazing speed of 20 mph]
Gee! That can blow the doors off an R-68 !!
Bill Newkirk
in the street!! however between liberty stat park and bayonne they hit almost 60.
Hippos can't do that, even down hill :-(
Mr t
LOL
Around 5PM this evening there was a flash fire in the Washington DC Metro tunnel, just about at the reverse curve east of the Foggy Bottom-GWU station of the Blue and Orange lines. It originated in the cable that feeds power to the third rail. Amazingly there were no injuries due to the fire, although one passenger was reported to have suffered a heart attack. According to the Washington Post, passengers aboard one West Falls Church-bound Orange Line train reported seeing a sheet of flames just outside the train windows just before arriving at Foggy Bottom-GWU station. Both Foggy Bottom-GWU and Farragut West stations were closed, and the last car of the Orange Line train filled with smoke. And a Blue Line train was stopped in the tunnel between the two stations as well, and it took some time to get the people to safety.
There was gridlock and mass confusion as emergency crews arrived on the scene and closed streets. Lots of people got stuck at stops between Rosslyn and Metro Center as trains discharged their passengers. Metro expects everything to be back to normal by morning.
wayne
The Post also reports that there was a passenger on board who was a teacher and helped calm things down and raise morale in the train.
The reasons the evacuation took so long was because the fire department had problems with their radios, and couldn't find the source of the smoke after they extinguished the fire. Metro officials weren't even allowed on the scene at first.
BTW: Handle is WMATAGMOAGH (same as my AIM screen name).
What does WMATAGMOH mean? I know WMATA stands for Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority, but I don't know the rest.
Chaohwa
GM is general manager and OAGH is my initials.
WHAT reverse curve? It's almost a straight line between Farragut West and Foggy Bottom. I believe there's a slight jog on that stretch...but not an S-curve like Malbone-Prospect or on the #5 south of 149th St.
The curve east of Foggy Bottom-GWU is more than a slight jog. There are two 35-degree curves approx. at the intersection of 21st & Eye Streets NW. A lot of times you don't notice it because the newer cars are rather quiet. It's similar to the curve west of Eastern Market, where it goes from Penna. Ave. SE to "D" Street but diverts onto North Carolina Avenue for a block first.
Wayne
A Best of boys in the hood type rap cd ... in TOWER RECORDS had on the cover a genuine REDBIRD # 2 at
the 241st irt Station.... on the back cover is the inside of the r 26-33 reddird subway car !!
just as i was on my way to see the new jazz re-issues it caught my eye !!.........have you seen it ??
tomorrow i will post the exact name of the artist so you can see it but it is a new release so all of rap
sections of every record and vidieo store has it .......!!........ i was in a hurry so i forgot the exact name
but i saw it in more than one record store !!.....photography on this rap cd is very good !!.........
Yes, I saw the CD in question a few months back. It was some rap compilation, a 'greatest hits,' if you will. One of the more well known artistsif I recall, like Funkmaster Flex...if you're familiar with rap.
I work in Downtown Brooklyn and saw that ad in a music store window display. It was a poster.
If I put my best "nice guy" face on, I'll attempt to get hold of a couple of those...
BTW, I thought I reported on that Redbird ad awhile ago here at SubTalk.
Doug aka BMTman
i did not think that this rap cd was only on the west coast ..........
the # 2 REDBIRD on the cover ! and a indside shot as well on the back !!
i remember grand master flash back in the late 1970's doing ""the message" with irt subway cars in the background..
the older irt cars like the movie ""the warriors"" were shown in operation !!
Aside from the "Best of the Boys in the Hood" CD with the R-33 on tehe "2", the "Funkmaster Flex's" newest CD features a R-33 on the "6" line sitting at Pelham Bay.
Lately Rap has been leaning towards the Subway and it's redbirds as the background for it's album covers and videos. More and more as I watch "Rap City" or videos on MTV that premier Rap videos, I see the subway with redbirds and Eastern Division subway cars as it's background.
I'm trying to figure out is this a growing trend or just a hot quick phase?
R142 Boi 2K
Good question.
Far be it for me to make assumptions about a culture I know little about(by choice), but I'd say the images of the subway go with the whole deep-down-urban/ghetto images many rappers try to portray. I don't think the type of car has anything to do with it beyond the point that many of the rappers may come from neighborhoods where you'd see these types of cars on lines and in yards.
Correct me if I'm wrong.....
I assume one or more of those rappers live or grew up along those lines, hence that's why they use them in (1) their videos or (2) the advertisements.
BTW, wasn't there a group in the 70's and/or 80's called 'D Train'?? I don't think they were rap, maybe catagorized more like Disco or 'dance music'. I'm sure the members of that group lived along the Brighton line...
Doug aka BMTman
04/21/2000
Rememeber back in the 70's when the album (pre-CD) debuted by BT Express? Cover was shot on the Nostrand Ave. (LIRR) platform showing the original wrought iron work before the LIRR rehabbed the platform. And to this add an approaching M-1 with the letters "BT" on the front that was done in the photo studio.
Since album covers and music seem to go hand in hand, I have in my possessionn an unusual item by McKendree Spring (that's his name) entitled "Get me to the country" circa 1975 on Pye records #12108. The front cover is an interior shot of an R-27 #82??, hospital green and grey paint, original square floor tiles and salmon colored seats. The members of the group are seen scattered around with girlfriends by their side making themselves comfy amongst furnishings consisting of a grandfathers clock, bumper pool table, TV set with antenna extended and a sterling silver tea set !!
Rear cover shows the group members looking out a door openeing of the R-27 at Ditmars Blvd. silver-blue with graffitti is the norm. The album although opened and played is still in shrink wrap with the original price tag of 69 cents purchased from King Karol records at 42nd St and 9th (or 10th) Avenue in Manhattan!!! This record didn't fly too well so don't look for it as a CD release.
Bill Newkirk
It sucks. I'd hate to see the subway associated with those millionaire thugs who think rhyming words makes for a good career.
Chris, I don't like most rap music either...in fact, I'm a black guy who's into rock'n'roll (listening to the new Pink Floyd CD as I write this). But those guys have every right to use the subways in their photos and videos - with official MTA permission, of course. After all, both rap music and the subways are major parts of urban culture. At least they had the good taste to use a Redbird!
I don't have any problems with them using the subway for a backdrop, unless the director of the video decided to try and sneak in an image of someone tagging one of the cars as some sort of graffiti nostalga.
As far as using the Redbirds, it my just be the color of the cars themselves works better visually. The all-silver look of all the new cars is pretty boring visually, though easier to maintain.
I think that these rappers use these subways and associate as part of their life. Both Nas and Mobb Deep, who lives in Queensbridge Projects, have shots of a R68 Q train at 21St which is right under the projects. Jeru Da Damaja did a video shoot at Bway Jct and mentioned the A train in his rhymes..... These rappers use the subway lines that they grew up on...............
3TM
I meant to say that Nas and Mobb Deep have shots of the R68 Q train inside their CD. Especially sitting under the rollsign with Queensbridge showing, "representing" where they are from..............
3TM
It is Funkmaster Flex CD. I have a copy. He works for Hot97 here in NYC. I believe he lived or grew up in that area of 241St. I was listening to the radio and remember when he did in fact gave a "shout out" to the 2 train and the Bx41 bus. Hes from the North Bx........
3TM
nice pictures hows that rap CD music ( with the redbird #2 at 241st station picture and inside shot ) etc......
compaired to ICE CUBE - PUBLIC ENEMY - PARIS ETC..............
Why do the doors on the Hudson LR have open buttons? Will there ever be a situation where the operator opts to keep the doors closed at a station and force the passengers to use the buttons?
Is there a time frame for having the line live up to the second part of it's name (Bergen)?
Slightly off-topic, but does Bergen County have anything to do with Hans Hansen Bergen, founder of the Nieuw Amersfoort (Flatlands)? Where does Bergen Street fit into all this? And why is North Bergen in Hudson County? Why is it NORTH Bergen, where is the frame of reference for it?
as for why the cars have open buttons... when i rode it on opening day, the doors closed in my face at exchange place, and one of the jersey transit people told me to hit the button... i would be surprised if
the button would activate the doors once the car is in motion...
while watching the operator through the front window i noticed that the closed circuit tv monitoring both sides of the train goes off almost immediately after closing the doors... somehow that seems a little risky, as that seems to be the only way of seeing the sides of the cars... on another train, i noticed that the monitor stayed on while the train was running...
Faxman and I noticed this too; but it seems to depend on the car. Some cars it stayed on, others it went off. It's either a bug, or a feature that can be activated and deactivated.
-Hank
In theory having doors that open only when needed helps keep the interior of the car more climate-controlled than if the doors always opened, even if no one is getting on or off at a particular location. I don't know if that's actually a rationale for having the buttons though. I remember that on the subways in London and Barcelona, newer cars had doors with buttons/levers to request opening. The first time I used a train with those kinds of doors I was left staring dumbfounded at the closed door after stopping in a station, wondering why other people's doors opened and not mine. :-)
Oh, the control panel has three door switches for each side of the car; Open, Close, and Enable.
-Hank
When the operator presses the "enable" button, the doors are unlocked and the inside and outside buttons light. If no one presses the outside button, the passenger may press the button to open the door, usually to get off.
Almost everybody's LRV's are set up this way. That way only the doors that need to be opened are, saving the heat/air conditioning.
The doors are supposed to open at the touch of the button, to keep the passengers safe from the elements. They advertized the feature in the Newark City Subway pamphlet for the new cars, as well as a few other places. A "fare inspector" said that they planned on using them, but disabled them for fear of people opening them while the train is moving. If the door control panel has "Open, Close, Enable" on it though, that story doesn't hold up. Another NJT employee said they would eventually start using them after a while.
They really should start using the feature now. Cars used for only 1 week should not have "Out of Service" doors. Those cars were not meant for the opening and closing of all the doors at every stop. Many times, there is no one on the platform and about 3 people on the train, yet they open all the doors. The beeping of every door in the car is annoying as well. I thought NJ Transit had sense.
However, if the door control system on the HBLR cars is standard, when the operator presses the "close" button, the doors close, lock and the buttons are disabled. That's the way our ABB LRV's work. The inside and outside door buttons do not light up until the "enable" button is pushed. The door controls do not work unless the brakes are fully set.
The door circuits cannot energise unless there is a full brake application.
Door-Open buttons (or manual handles/interlocks) are common on transit systems in Europe. All of the Paris Metro stock has them, about 50% of the London Underground has them as well. They're mostly useful in lines that are outdoor (of which Paris has very few) to keep in the heat/AC and keep out the rain and whatnot, and to save wear and tear on the door mechanisms. Only the doors that people want to use are opened at any particular station.
i can not cut and paste the article but trust me it happened
The fire was in the DC Metro, near Faragot West ?? "Few blocks from the White House". Pax were walked through the tunnel some minor injuries. Service halted on that line is all I could glean from last night's news.
yes that is the one.
Washington Post article on last night's fire:
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52624-2000Apr20.html
Happened between Farragut West and Foggy Bottom-GWU. See the "WMATAGMOH-Fire in the Hole" thread for more info.
SINKING SPRING, Pa. (AP) . A car was purposely pushed into the path of an oncoming freight train by another vehicle Thursday, authorities said. Two women and two children in the car were killed in the collision.
``It appears to be a domestic situation, but we don't know that for sure,'' police Lt. Ed Snyder said.
The car with the women and children was apparently being chased by another car as it approached the crossing, Snyder said.
It went around a car that was parked at the crossing . the gates were down because of the oncoming train . and pulled up to cross the tracks but stopped, Snyder said.
``The second vehicle came up behind her and struck her in the rear. The second vehicle then pushed the first vehicle onto the tracks,'' Snyder said.
The driver of that second car remained at large Thursday night.
One of the women and one of the children died at the scene. The other woman and child were airlifted to a hospital, where they died.
The train came to a stop more than a quarter-mile from the crossing and did not appear to have derailed, Snyder said. The car appeared to have been pushed a short distance by the train before rolling several times and coming to rest about 50 yards from the crossing.
Several roads remained closed Thursday evening near the scene of the wreck, and traffic was being redirected. Dozens of police officers and fire officials remained on the scene late Thursday.
AP-NY-04-20-00 2254EDT
It made the news in Denver. Some guy was chasing his estranged girlfriend and pushed her car onto the track into the path of the oncoming train with his car.
THey have since arrested the jackass responsible. Only the second-most horrifying thing to hear for me today; the other being the inability of the FDNY to send a truck to the scene of a fire for lack of a person qualified to drive the rig.
-Hank
Boy how 'bout that, a scene right out of Lethal Weapon 4. That is some sick stuff. Made me upset reading that article, 2 mothers and 2 kids dying at the hands of some psycho ex-husband or boyfriend.
Yeah, I heard all the nasty details last night.
What a low-life SOB!
The electric chair is too lenient for a monster like that. He should be driven out onto a trackbed with an oncoming Metroliner or something and get a taste of his own medicine!
Doug aka BMTman
["He should be driven onto a trackbed with an oncoming Metroliner or something and get a taste of his own medicine!"]
Unfortunately, doing that would
(1) create emotional trauma for the T/O who'd be forced to kill him;
(2) unnecessarily damage a perfectly good train and car; and
(3) create tons of paperwork.
I think we can agree (or at least hope) that any attempt he makes at an insanity defense will fail miserably, and that the American justice system will deal with him fairly but harshly. Besides, once he gets to jail, his fellow inmates are sure to dish out their own brand of justice.
They should take him down to Peblo Colorado and use him as a crash test dummy in one of those Silverliners.
Better yet, combine your ideas. Take him to Pueblo and put his car BETWEEN the Silverliners and the wall. If he survives, it's go to jail, go directly to jail.
I heard a while back (TV, most likely) about a country that offers death-row inmates a chance to get a life sentence instead, by performing service as high-speed crash-test dummies in new car models.. if they survive, it's off to the slammer. If not, the taxpayers are spared the expense of an execution, and a vehicle safety study is completed...
ian
Though I don't have as ready access to 30th Street as I used to I stop by every now and then to see what's going on. Major renovations inside and outside abound. New electronic signage for Acela are going up such as destination/arrival signs by each stairway.
When does Acela Express begin?
Just a few questions.
1) Standing at the front of the train, at rail crossings the motorman hits a "call" button every time. Is this suppose to change the aspects of the light so we could move?
2) There are three more buttons, "C", "N" and "R". What does those mean?
3)Are those cars air braked? Doesn't seem to be much noise to me.
4) Anyone know the positions for the controller. I know two are "Emer", and "FS".
5) How does the dead man function. The handle is vertical the operator has to put it into the horizontal position?
Just a few questions.
1) Standing at the front of the train, at rail crossings the motorman hits a "call" button every time. Is this suppose to change the aspects of the light so we could move?
2) There are three more buttons, "C", "N" and "R". What does those mean?
3)Are those cars air braked? Doesn't seem to be much noise to me.
4) Anyone know the positions for the controller. I know two are "Emer", and "FS".
5) How does the dead man function. The handle is vertical the operator has to put it into the horizontal position?
Really like the way they run. Quick acceleration and quick stops.
Only of NYCTA was like that.
Hello, subway buffs! Can any of you tell me where I can find earlier editions of the NYC subway map we all know and love? I'd be grateful for any suggestions. Thanks.
Liz,
Actually, you can go into either the 57th St/6th Av station on the (Q) line, or the Lexington Av station on the same line (63rd St)! Someone must have forgotten about them, as both have old subway maps posted.
Bob Sklar
The one at 57th Street, it should be noted, is behind the new map. Walk around into the glass partition to get a good look.
04/20/2000
Depends which era or decade you're taliking about. Try E-BAY, I've seen subway maps auctioned there. Also try train meets where dealers who sell paper railroadiana may have maps along with timetables.
Bill Newkirk
Old editions of NYC subway maps are on display at the Transit Museum. There's also a book out from H&M Publications called 12 Historical NYC Street and Subway Maps. In that volume they're all individually pocketed although quality of some of them is dubious....
www.forgotten-ny.com
R-44 Car 5242 has a 1997 map. The other posts have more info on old maps in other locations in the subway. Online hand-drawn and scanned maps are on this site.
I purchased a replica 1958 map at the Transit Museum giftshop in 1990. I also own a 1978 "rainbow" map, as well as every single edition of "the map" from 1979 (featuring the new trunk line route color scheme) to 1998. The infamous 1974 map at the 57th/6th Ave. is quite a sight to behold. In the "Cars of the BMT" book, there is a picture of a 1924 BMT map, which is also available on this site.
The 1967-78 style map, IMHO, is a piece of modern art, worthy of framing. It was lousy at getting you around the system, but it was pretty.
Why not try eBay? You can start from here
Chaohwa
Outside Bergen street where B1 diverges, and B3 begins, the home signal bottom head is marked " X ARB". Usually I see only lever _numbers_ on the bottom signal plate. What's the deal?
Also, at the south end of Bergen, there is another marked " XR 24 ". Why "XR" instead of the usual "X"? Does that lever have left and right positions?
This signal also has a red circled "K". --And I didn't see a "Circle-K" convenience store anywhere around there ;-) Is the red "K" for key-by?
thanx, Dave
Red circle K identifies signal as one that cannot be keyed-by with the train wheels; rather, you must physically operate the key-by feature.
Alex L. answered the circle K question
If the interlocking plant is Union Switch & Signal, as Bergen
street is (was), then all signal and switch levers are Left-Right
pairs, set up so that they are generally opposing, and you gain
the natural mechanical interlocking. Sometimes a single lever
position controls a number of series, particularly at stations
where you have a bank of single-head approach signals that clear
on time. Then each signal is XL4A, XL4B, etc.
I have no idea what X ARB means, but I suspect it may have to do
with the fire damage at that interlocking. It was replaced with
a temporary miniature lever plant and that crossover might be one
that can't be controlled from the tower right now. Just speculating.
X-ARB = X-"Arbitrary" ?
Do signals with higher lever nembers (like 3 or 5 hundreds) belong to master towers? I can't imagine a lever interlocking machine with 500 levers. (well, yes I can, but that's MY problem)
Dave
Has anyone seen the posters on the subway for bettertransit.org? It compares transit in Washington, and Paris to that of NY, and puts down NYC transit. I went to their official site last night and filled out their petetion. Has anyone else???
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.angelfire.com/biz4/nyctransit
Click the image to go to TrAnSiTiNfO
This is just the Straphangers, who kissed up to Sheldon Silver for a year and got a study and $25 billion in debt. Perhaps they now realize that the transit enemies come in all political hues. Or perhaps not.
Sure, and we can run a system like DC if we closed down for 5 hours every night. Oh. I forgot. They don't mention things like that when making these silly comparisions.
[Sure, and we can run a system like DC if we closed down for 5 hours every night. Oh. I forgot. They don't mention things like that when making these silly comparisions.]
We could run a system like DC if the Feds didn't have a cap on mass transportation spending for New York and California. We could run a system like DC if New York State didn't account for 8% of Federal tax receipts and 7% of the population but receive only 5% of transportaiton spending. We could run a system like DC if we didn't have one manager for every four employees. We could run a system like DC if we went to OPTO and unattended stations. We could run a system like DC if we didn't spend $1.5 billion building a train to nowhere. We could run a system like DC if we didn't overspend on medicaid. We could run a system like DC if the MTA didn't plan to spend $4.8 billion to benefit 160,000 daily LIRR riders while ignoring 1.4 million daily Lexington Avenue riders. We could run a system like DC if the MTA didn't spend that $4.8 billion to extend the 63rd Street tunnel one mile and build a new annex at GCT rather than just connecting the LIRR to the existing Metro North tunnels and taking the trains into the underutilized lower level. We could run a system like DC if the state didn't bleed the City blind to pay for upstate pork. We could run a system like DC if we weren't stuck with ridiculous Federal and State unfunded mandates. We could run a system like DC if we privatized it. We could run a system like DC if we raised the fare during peak periods. We could run a system like DC if we charged a rush hour parking fee in the business districts.
I signed the petition down there. I do wanna see a subway on 2nd ave, would be cool. But like Alex said, we'd have to shut down from midnight to 5 AM to run like them. I have a friend in San Fran who rides BART, and he has to leave the bars by 11 to get back to Oakland in time.
I saw this ad too. I mentioned it here yesterday.......
3TM
Keep in mind that organizations such as Straphangers generate their income through advocacy, and the Regional Plan Assocation through ivory-tower academism. They don't actually WANT major improvements to be implemented, since implementation is too real-world for RPA and gives Straphangers less reason to exist.
In fact, Straphangers vigrously OPPOSED the first MTA Capital Program in the 1980's because they feared that system improvements would put them out of business.
If anyone out there shares my interest in railway/transit curiosities, very early railways, and atmospheric railways, I would recommend this very interesting article I found today on the London Transport webring at:
http://www.davros.org/rail/atmospheric.html
I know precious little about London's Tube system but it would appear that it has a history as rich (and perhaps more rich due to its age) than New York's. Abandoned stations, disused branches, strange (and quite old) rolling stock, etc,.......
Happy reading.
Before a lot of posts questioning the availability of Subtalk/Bustalk come up, I need to mention that the NY area (where the NYCSUBWAY.ORG servers are located) has been in a severe weather system for the past 18 hours. Storms have included hail, and severe thunderstorm watches have come and go, along with flood watches. This most likely was the reason for the inability for many of us to access Subtalk/Bustalk. Now we return to our regularly scheduled programming.
-Hank :)
I'll vouch for that. I was in the "hotseat" doing Transit & Weather Together on WCBS this afternoon. I even told our listeners about the thunderstorm that thought it was a Long Island Rail Road train... "stopping at: Rockville Center, Baldwin, Freeport, Merrick, Bellmore, Wantaugh, Seaford, Massapequa, Massapequa Park, Amityville, Copaigue, Lindenhurst, and Babylon!"
My colleague, WCBS Meteorologist Craig Allen, who lives on the south shore of LI (and was taking the afternoon off), waited for 90 minutes at Merrick for a westbound train to the city between 5:00 and 6:30. None came. "Switching problems" were blamed.
Area airports reported up to three hour delays. But as one who has flown through severe thunderstorms (not intentionally!), I'll add that an hour on the ground is better than a minute in the air inside one of those things.
And that's Transit and Weather Together/.
[My colleague, WCBS Meteorologist Craig Allen, who lives on the south shore of LI (and was taking the afternoon off), waited for 90 minutes at Merrick for a westbound train to the city between 5:00 and 6:30. None came. "Switching problems" were blamed.]
I took the 5:22 to Ronkonkoma this afternoon, and thanks to "crossing gate problems caused by the weather," we were about 20 minutes late in arriving. The train had about one-quarter of the usual load, so it wasn't too bad a ride, all things considered. But then I had to wait at Ronkonkoma for about 40 minutes for the Greenport train; it couldn't leave until the 5:41 from Penn arrived, and that train was more than a half hour late. Ronkonkoma station looked like the Fall of Saigon, packed with MacArthur airport passengers who were waiting for the next train into Penn (which, of course, was running very late due to the eastbound delays on the single-tracked line).
Some street flooding was visible in Hicksville, Wyandanch and Deer Park. Parked cars were submerged to the top of the wheel wells on one spot in Wyandanch.
We had a biblical rainstorm here (West Babylon NY) Friday afternoon and evening, probably in excess of 3" rain, and I had 140+ gallons of Water in my basement. PTUI! The rug's still wet, but I don't care.
Every street in Lindenhurst it seemed was flooded in some way shape or form Friday night, and SUNRISE Highway, beneath the LIRR trestle at Town Hall, was at sea.
Wayne
Sunrise Highway was built above the City of Brooklyn water supply line.
Hank's right, there was a transformer explosion down the road from the ISP host site on Friday afternoon.
-Dave
Rainy boring afternoon today, so I ended up watching this GREAT old movie on Turner Classic this afternoon called "The Clock"...Your basic soldier meets girl on his 24 hr pass in the Big Town story with Judy Garland as The Girl. The pivitol scene is when they get separated in the rush hour crush at Grand Central....MGM used to be the Tiffany of the old movie studios, and it really shows here! You would NEVER guess that 90 o/o of those scenes were shot out in California! They did an incredible job of , if not exactly duplicating the station, at least making you believe it was real..Even the mock-up of the inside of a Low-V looked authentic, not like a TTC car with NYC roll signs, or a Pacific Electric car, as you can see in several of the older movies...MGM had a real rep in those days for doing the job right, I wouldn't be surprised if they got a copy of the car design from NYC....Even the signs in GC looked just about like the signs looked in those days...Of course, you can also tell where they used a second unit in town for exteriors, and where they use MGM's famous/infamous New York Street backlot for most of the street scenes...not bad for 1944 though..not bad at all...
According to the Internet Movie DataBase, the movie was filmed in New York City.
http://www.us.imdb.com
As I went to North (actually East) Jersey for Passover, I consequently ended up at a grade crossing of route 35 and the NJCL (north of Long Branch). At 3:15 PM on a weekday, the gates went down, and a diesel train passed n.b., under the wire. It was a locomotive carrying about 4 coaches.
1. Does the line run much under the wire service (Direct diesel from Bay Head to NWK, I would imagine), or was this a deadhead?
2. How many coaches would the line use at that time. IIRC, they use many more than 4 (8-10) on the electric part, but about 4 on the shuttle?
3. Does NJT ever plan to electrify from Long Branch to Bay Head Junction?
4. According to you, does that line have a lot of grade crossings?
1. The line does run a fair amount of direct service, mostly at rush hour, from Bay Head to Hoboken. Unless your watch was in error, that particular run was either an extra or a deadhead - there's a 2:54 from Bay Head that stops in Long Branch at 3:32 and goes on to Hoboken but all the other (timetable) eastbound through runs are in the morning. NJT did run some extra service on Wednesday, but I don't know if that was part of it.
2. Four coaches is a typical number for the 2:54; morning trains are usually six to Hoboken (there's one that is eight, IIRC). Shuttle trains from Bay Head to Long Branch at other hours are usually four or five cars.
3. NJT does have plans for eventual electrification of the line to Bay Head. I don't know where the electrification stands in the grand scheme of things, but they are going to start doing some bridge work this year in preparation for it. The Asbury Park Press had a couple of brief articles on it in conjunction with more lengthy discussions of the various proposals for a line to Lakewood and Toms River. The NIMBYs in Middlesex County are trying to block it and the Monmouth County folks have proposed reactivating the line from Matawan through Freehold instead, avoiding the NIMBYs and significantly shortening the travel time from Lakewood, but NJT hasn't shown much interest in that proposal since it involves the Coast Line rather than the Northeast Corridor.
4. There are quite a few grade crossings on the line, but none that are poorly marked or protected. There have been a few bad accidents down in the Belmar area, mostly involving senior citizens who have driven around the gates.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They usually run a 2:12 from Hoboken 4 cars long, no matter what the season (some summer days it's practically standing room only). Eastbound, there's a 6 or 8 car train that gets to Newark at 4:28, arrives at Hoboken at 4:50 (schedules say 4:56) and goes right back out to Bay Head at 5:09.
[r142]-[r142]
[r142]-[r142]
[r142]-[r142]
[r142]-[r142]
[r142]-[r142]
So, I take it your not the hugest fan of the new cars, then?
dave... to give you a partial honest answer, i think
i am using the 142's to represent a deeper
dissatisfaction i have with some people...
now dont forget ! they ......( the R -142s ) are made out of styrofoam !!........
............................. A SCRAPPED REDBIRD WILL OUTLAST THEM...!!
...........watch it......... !!!.........styrofoam ( R-142s ) catches on fire easy ........!!
As long as the fire is not associated with any equipment in the Transit Museum!
;-)
Around 7:30pm, I was looking outside from my stoop and I saw what I believe to be the R142(A). There was two work trains at the end and in the middle was about 8 cars. It was on the track connection between the 3 and L lines. It was heading to the 3 line. I will be on the lookout this weekend...........
3Train"R142"Mike
Well I didn't see new cars, but I wholeheartedly believe that more R-142s have arrived from the Bombardier Plant. These cars get delivered to Linden Yard and make their way into the Subway System from there. Kawasaki Cars, on the other hand, are supposed to be delivered by truck, unless delivery methods changed. On the subject, I just spotted a pair of SBK engines running south on the 2 Line here in the Bronx with a Rider Car in the middle, a second Rider Car, De-Icer RD345, and a standard TA Diesel. Seeing the SBK pair has made me wonder if something's brewing in the shop at East 180th St. I will report anything I find out of there.
Cheers,
Stef
I spoke to a conductor on the 2 on friday who told me that he heard that the R-142's will not start there 30 day test until late july.
At 11:50 A.M. I saw a 2 car bilevel train with engine 416 or 419 pass Forest Hills toward Jamaica. What was it doing there.
Henry, more to the point, why does this seem so unusual? Light trains (drags) are very common on all railroads. They are used to move cars to facilitate maintenance or strategic lelocation of rolling stock for service. Perhaps these two cars were being moved to Hillside for inspection. Perhaps they were bad-order cars removed from a train at Hunters Point of LIC. Perhaps they were cars that had been modified or repaired by Kawasaki in their Sunnyside facility and are being returned to Hillside to be placed back into service.
[At 11:50 A.M. I saw a 2 car bilevel train with engine 416 or 419 pass Forest Hills toward Jamaica. What was it doing there.]
#416 is frequently used on the Greenport shuttle. I don't usually pay much attention to car numbers, but that one stuck in my mind because it's the same number as my street address for many years. The two cars also sounds like Greenport.
I don't know why the Greenport shuttle would be in Forest Hills, as it usually doesn't go west of Ronkonkoma. Possibly some sort of maintenance, as Train Dude mentioned. I didn't note what number was on the Greenport shuttle last evening, which was not surprising as we were in the middle of a deluge of Biblical proportions!
.......saw this on he news on TV the washington D.C. subway- metro had a fire break out in one of the subway
tunnels !! The good news nobody was killed or got hurt........ but the information was limited what really happened ??
.......saw this on he news on TV the washington D.C. subway- metro had a fire break out in one of the subway...
tunnels !! The good news nobody was killed or got hurt........ but the information was limited what really happened ??
Check out the fire in the hole thread 4 more info.
Due to the overwhelming resentment of R-142s on this board, I have attempted to avoid posting responses to messages with the sole purpose of attacking the R-142s, which almost no-one here has even been on. I urge all of you R-142 fans, to IGNORE all messages and threads against these new additions to our transit fleet. Don't justify a useless remark with a response. Don't fuel their outrageous and unbased claims.
why would anyone want to build a non- USA made styrofoam subway car ??
because the U.S. manufacturers went out of business. duh!
I'm not one of them. I would like to see the new cars to replace the older ones (PLEASE DON'T START!). I like that loud computerized voice in the R142s which gives articulate messages when it pulls into one station or heading towards another... (if my memory is not too faint on the last time I rode one on the #2). Certainly much better than trying to understand what today's conductors are trying to say.
Imagine the TOURISTS taking the subway system. Which would they rather see, the newer digitally computerized R142s, OR the red-painted scrolling-sign conductor-voiced redbirds?.... I've been to other foreign cities with subway systems and theirs have already been modernized. We still use the same fleet in some places as it was 40 years ago or so.
Many Redbird cars have super-loud PA systems, which are even louder when the car is empty. You still can't understand them, and have to cover your ears! The only three things I will miss about the cars are the ability to easily mess around with the sign, the "straps", and the blinking lights on the R-36 and R-33WF. It's fun to see first time riders' reactions at Times Square. However, I am willing to let all that go for Automated Station Announcement (which I hope the TA will actually use, unlike the HBLR and many LIRR trains), Double-End Doors, Digital Signs (no more people like me changing them to Penn Station Times Square Shuttle), and dual air conditioning so if one fails, the other kicks in. Also, where would you rather be if there is only one other person in the car who looks rather menacing; in an R-26-36 where you must fend for yourself during an attack or in an R-142 where you can call for help.
In short, I agree.
and when the computer announcements breaks down ?
and what volume level ??..... even in atlanta stations are announced by a real person !!
i have seen people call for help in atlanta and the emergency so called can box fail .... not to mention false calls !
digital signs automated computer voices .......why not just build a GIANT people mover instead ??
Actually, that's not how the dual air works. Both units work, depending on the temperature of the car. Usually, only one is running, and if the temp rises past a certain point, the second one kicks in. If one fails, one is always on. The other, obviously, never kicks in. Train Dude explained how it worked once.
-Hank
I agree with you on all counts, escept for the straps, they SUCK!!!
Now I don't mind if they do it like on a bus, hanging straps from a bar, giving us the best of both worlds.
..........yea man......!!!!...........Thats what the styrofoam built 142s are !! OVERSIZED PEOPLE MOVERS !!
and with all of that - la- la- la- land digital - do the break down fix and or repair daily this daily and fall apart ........
SO lets be honest with this shiny new junk ( on topic ) .....how can a brand new people mover car look so dammed ugly
Why B. S. around with this new piece of junk ?? fire the motorman or motorwoman and conductor too! repalce them all with your cheap styrofoam plastic cardboard artifical recycled tin foil ...........................................................
BRAND NEW R-142s AUTOMATED PEOPLE MOVERS.... !!!!!!................like the people mover in detroit !!
made by some bomb-bab-ner bombed out unidentified UFO company !!.............. not USA made !!
............( get mad ).........i really enjoyed myself on this post ! ....... i rolled with laughs !! ...........( get mad ).......!!
You would've hated the "Q" cars on the Myrtle which used real straps made of a canvasslike material.
Though the R-10/R-12/R-14s had the all-time worst straps -- the rectangular `knuckle crushers' (If you ever got jerked suddenly while holding onto one on an R-10, you know what I mean) that were modifed to the rounded metal bars after that.
the loubspeakers on the redbirds did not bother me ~!! on some hippos & rinos no pa at all- BROKEN !!
Now this is exactly what I'm talking about....you started this topic earlier in the day, and now started a brand new thread about the same thing! I understand that you don't make personal attacks on people, just the subway car equipment. And thats fine, but you are throwing MUCH MORE than your 2 cents in. -Nick
... but not 2 cents at anybody .........( example).... flamage personal attacks insults and so on etc. aimed at a person !.
He had only 2 cents to start. He's throwing out wooden nickels and expecting change, now.
-Hank
make sure your wife ""SALLY"" does not hear that !!
I've seen broken loudspeakers on most of the Redbirds that I've been on. Most of the silver cars that I've been on at least have working PA systems even if I don't always understand what the conductor is saying.
where are the pa speakers located on the redbirds anyway? i know some of them have them located in the HVAC vent however on the younger models, i can never find them where are they please reply.
Would you believe under the seats?
-Hank
last time on the a train ( not an r 38 ) a hippo or rino transverse cab type etc........ pa system dead !! at least the redbirds pa system worked !!
how about that for the good old days ??
i totally agree. first of all, to hell with the people who got a problem with the R 142's, second, subway cars got a life like us humans and the Redbirds are live corpses running down the tracks also they are outdated technology wise, third of all, until who ever objects to the R142, needs to ride them before they talk all the hype about them. don't prejudge new things until you've tried them first.
why are they made out of styrofoam ??
04/24/2000
Don't get me wrong, but I am a fan of the carbon steel type smee's having witnessed brand new R-27/30's on the QT /QB Brighton locals. But the Redbirds days are numbered and the TA has made up their mind that the R-142/A's are here to stay. We can bemoan the new regime (142) all we want and toy with ideas on how to extend another year of service, but as I stated before, their days are numbered. Nothing we can do about it, sorry. The TA has invested a lot of money not withstanding the R-142's cost to see that the Redbirds are history. After all, the R-27/30's replaced in part the BMT Standards on the Brighton local, I got over it, even though I was 11 years old at the time!
Bill Newkirk
Yes, I will ignore them and their ignorant comments. I'm going to ride them before I make a decision on what, if anything, I don't like about them. But since they're so much more modern than the Redbirds the #2 line is cursed with right now, I don't think there's going to be anything that I dislike about the R142s.
are you sure because you will be stuck with it once it goes into service !
Yeah, I'm sure. And #2 riders are not going to be stuck with them once they enter service. We will finally be getting the modern cars we have deserved since the days of graffitti. We will be blessed with them, if anything.
Henry R32#3730
I wish that people would stop trashing the R-142s plus I dislike the inflammatory messages that have been posted about them before they even enter regular service. I agree with you that these people should stop trashing the R-142s. I'VE HAD ENOUGH OF THE NASTY MESSAGES FROM THOSE PEOPLE!!!
Jeff Alterman
I am not sure of where the V will run, but some MM I know say it might run were the New Track work is being done by the E and F at 36th street. In the NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY CARS book, I saw a pic of a Slant R40 with a orange V sign .Does this mean it will be another 6th avenue line? I hope they make it a Local. Cause sometimes The F is slow, Even though that is my favorite 6th avenue line.
Maybe, maybe not. As has been said on this Board at least once a week for months now, no decision has been made as to what will run through the 63rd Street Connector. A service called "V" is under consideration, but that doesn't mean the service currently being called "V" will be the one that operates or that whatever does end up running through the connector will be called "V".
David
Thew letter "V" has been set aside for a new 6th Ave train running from Queens and through 63rd. St. to Manhattan, via the 6th Ave. local. Speculation has been made about using this route as a possible local all the way to Church Ave, which would allow Culver Express service (F) to begin running again. However, since no plan has been decided upon, the "V" line might never come into existance.
Sometimes slow? Always slow is more like it. In my opinion, F stands for failure.
The F needs a partner! The line is basically on its own from Coney Island through 53rd/5th.
What happened to the B,D,Q from Bdwy Laffayette to 50th Sts, even they are a express skipping 2 stops.
The strange thing about the 'V' is the only route info on the sign (on the R32/38, at least) is 'via Sixth Ave' No other route info exists on the roll. So as long as it's 'via Sixth Ave' it can go anywhere, as long as Sixth Ave is part of the route.
-Hank
As an excuse to ride the new streetcar route in Jersey I'm thinking of taking my son to the Liberty Science Center today. Some questions:Can I get a Path train to Exchange Pl from 33rd or do I have to go to the WTC?How is the area at Exchange Pl?How long is the trip from Exchange to the Science Center? Is my 3 1/2 yr old son to young to appreciate the science center?
jeff-- it is easier to go from the WTC... it is only
1 stop from the WTC... exchange place is a very new
commmercial downtown area... it is very safe and
very boring... the hblr is about 10 minutes from
exchange place... either line goes there... the
bayone and west side ave lines split up there... i
think the liberty science center would be fun for
your kid, if you can tear yourself away from the
light rail line... i'm very impressed with it...
10 minutes? You're a slow walker! It's across the street if you use the elevators. Otherwise, it's around a building. You can't miss it. From 33st, you'll have to change trains at Pavonia to a WTC train.
-Hank
jeff-- it is easier to go from the WTC... it is only
1 stop from the WTC... exchange place is a very new
commmercial downtown area... it is very safe and
very boring... liberty state park is about 10 minutes from
exchange place... either line goes there... the
bayone and west side ave lines split up there... i
think the liberty science center would be fun for
your kid, if you can tear yourself away from the
light rail line... i'm very impressed with it...
As an excuse to ride the new streetcar route in
Jersey I'm thinking of taking my son to the Liberty
Science Center today. Some questions:Can I
get a Path train to Exchange Pl from 33rd or do I
have to go to the WTC? (I'm taking the LIRR)How is the area at
Exchange Pl?How long is the trip from Exchange
to the Science Center? Is my 3 1/2 yr old son to
young to appreciate the science center?
Enjoy the trip. I am uncertain about the age-appropriateness of the Science Center. I know it attempts to get school groups. You and your son may also experience frustrations with weekend PATH service and with slow light rail. Yes, one may ride PATH for $1 from Sixth Avenue and 32nd St, change at Newport/Pavonia (or at Grove Street) and reach Exchange Place, which is in a "safe" neighborhood of office buildings that are empty on weekends. It may be faster to ride the IRT to Cortlandt Street, then take any PATH train one stop to Exchange Place. The HBLR is scheduled to depart Exchange Place every 7 minutes and the approximate 2 miles to Liberty State Park is a crawling 15 minutes or so. On Thursday I saw groups of parents and children boarding at Liberty State Park station. Regarding the safe neigborhood at Exchange Place, note the dramatic, violent anti-Russian statue commemorating those slain in Katyn Forest.
How does a statue make a neighborhood unsafe?
"Regarding the safe neigborhood at Exchange Place, note the dramatic, violent anti-Russian statue commemorating those slain in Katyn Forest."
Is THAT what that is? When I got off at Exchange Place to ride the new light rail, I saw the statue and thought "What the bloody hell is that?!" In front of me was a sculpture of a soldier with a rifle sticking out of his back and the point of the bayonet protruding from his chest, with the large word SIBERIA on the base of the statue. It looked especially peculiar in its surrounding of new and remodeled office buildings. I managed to snap off one photo of the statue before I saw a light rail car coming in and I had to run to buy a ticket. When I got back, I was in too much of a hurry to catch a PATH train to examine the statue further.
the transit museum membership card admits you free to the liberty science center, as well as
brooklyn children's museum
staten island children's museum
new york hall of science
newark museum and planetarium
and over 200 more museum
including my favorite singapore science center
Yes, they all are on the list, but did you read the small print? It seems that local museums do not always honor other local museum memberships. Has anybody here tried?
yes.. i was to liberty science a couple of months ago and there was no trouble... they even let me wheel around my shopping cart full of scrap metal... seriously, it is a nice deal... it costs about $8 to get in there
including my favorite singapore science center
Been there, done that :)
Sentosa Island was really cool, too!
--Mark
pigs suggested that i find out if webtv supports irc
i found out it does
here's how to access it:
go to home screen
click on community
click on chat
click on go to over on the left
fill in
server-- javairc.mircx.com
port-- 6667
room--- #metrocard
if anyone tries it in the next 10 or 15 minutes, i will be there talking to myself
Speaking of the MetroCard Chat, I take it there is a chat tonight at 8. I'll be there, we'd love it if you could join.
yeah--- i am going to be there--- i think i can get into the chatroom with the webtv.net connection...
i have to warn everyone not to expect too much from me in a spontaneous situation... all of my funny stuff takes hours to make up... in a real time situation i tend to be quite catatonic...
I might show up too ...
Do you have to register or anything like that?
as far as i know there is no registering...
you can access the site at
metrocard.cjb.net and click on chatroom..
Better to use IRC!
With your favorite IRC client, use the same data (server, port, channel) that heypaul gave us.
The WebTV IRC program works well. Hopefully at 8 PM I'll see a few of you there.
your subforum and greyhound bus site is the best !!
Subforum is mine, you must mean UsTalk.
heypauls two sites.......i know you dont want me in your forum..........
On the TTC a six car train had the last two trains go about 300m with
the doors open before a patron hit an emergency bar.This happened
because the opperator released the system for the last two trains
because there was a air pressure system problem. he did not check the outside lites over doors and allowed the train to leave.
victor
What route will this thing take? Will it start in Center City, go up the R6 Cynwyd, cross over to Ivy Ridge, and then take the R6 Norristown to wherever its going to end?
Thats what they claim. But just remember, the startup date is 2007 A. D., I hope).
I know. I got the article from my aunt who lives in Philadelphia and brought me the article. All I want is more frequent R6 Cynwyd service or for the 44 to not go on the interstate when there is heavy traffic!
SEPTA recently decided on a commuter rail option instead of an extensive light rail line.
Here's what I think should happen with the R6:
Convert the Cynwyd Branch into a new light rail line that runs into South Philadelphia(as they have no rail transit besides the BSS).
Would it go through Center City? I like the R6 because it leaves me closer to my destanation than the R5 and I can take the 44 if it right there on City Line Avenue.
It would branch off the current RR alignment right at the 20th Street portal and run as a subway, but I can't think of a good southern terminal. Maybe the Airport of the Sports Complex?
That proposal is dead. Its now going on the Cynwyd ROW as we know it today. The City Branch idea was only for alternatives 5E (light rail) and 5ET (light rail with tunnel between 16th and Market and 18th and Callowhill).
Oh yes, in case you don't know, the proposed peak (consist) vehicle length for alternative 5E, which would involve street running on Broad Street, and the Girard Avenue Bridge was 480', whereas the longest consist presently run in the Broad Street Subway is 335' The proposed vehicle lenght for 5ET was 600', the lenght of a consist of 8 R-46s. And this would run on the Girard Avenue Bridge, but it was never known whether the bridge could support its weight.
I am not making this up.
I have spent much time considering a fanticy railroute to Reading. Here's what I would do:
The line would start at the location of the old Reading Outer Station. There is tonnes of room there for a yard and engine facilities. The first stop would be Franklin St. station. Next a local only stop at Gibralter, the Birdsboro, then local stops at Monocacy and Stowe. There is a small yard at Stowe and it could serve as a terminus for peak trains that run from Philly to Pottstown. Next comes the big station at Pottstown, a local stop at Linfiled, a normal stop at Royersford, Pheonixville and a local stop at Valley Forge. The line from Pottstown to Abrahams Yard would be 4 track and the Black Rock tunnel would be enlarged to 2 tracks. From Abrahams the line would cross the Schuykill and stop at Norristown. A little past Norristown the Valley line could cross over to the old PRR RoW (in a Trails to Rails programme) from which point the train would run hi-speed express into Suburban St. I can also see SEPTA trains connecting with the Hi-line and running "Sports Extras" down to the sports complex. I have heard many callers in to 610 WIP sports radio complaining of the drive from the Valley into the Philly to watch events. The trains would be painted in "team" themes and would boast an all stainless steel interrior. Drinking in any form would be permitted. Cars would be hosed out after each run. Advertising posters would proclaim: "SEPTA, Let us be your designated driver."
This is how I think SEPTA should plan the line, but because this was a fanticy railroad I went a bit further in my little pipe dream. If I had a billion dollars to spend the whole thing would be electrified and much of the line would be 3 or 4 track. Speeds would reach 110mph and there would be a flying junction built at Abrahams yard controled by an interlocking tower. Also the Sports line would connect with a trans-Delaware River tunnel that would allow 3rd rail eelectrified trains running on the Woodbury-Millville corridor direct access into 30th St. station (I would turn the west parking garage iinto a platform for tracks 9 and 10.)
Found this on SEPTA's Web Site:
Riders are advised that the times shown in the Route R2 Marcus Hook/Wilmington/Newark timetable for Churchman's Crossing Station will not be effective until that station is opened this summer. Please watch for further announcements.
Where is this? I have NEVER heard of such a thing.
SEPTA is opening two new stations on the R2 to Wilmington. This year, a station called Churchman's Crossing will open between Newark and Wilmington and next year a station called Baldwin will open north of Eddystone(and may replace it). They've alrady been posted on many SEPTA station maps.
These stations are serving new demand on the line and will certainly be helpful with that 5 mile closure of I-95 in Delaware.
This all goes with the system's attempts to improve it self which I, most slanderous of SEPTA riders, must say is helping. Now if we could do something about the M-4's and the fares.....
I've heard of Baldwin, it has been proposed for 15 years (at least). It will be at those beige buildings one can see from the Metroliner between Eddystone and Crum Lyne (or whatever the next station is), right? I've always assumed those were the Baldwin Towers.
I got the November R2 schedule from my Philly relatives when they came down for the seders.
I agree about the fare, it is worse than DC's old system.
I liked Wawa and Crum Creek Manor(?). Always thought those were interesting names. What is Wawa named for, anyway?
Wayne
Wawa is allegedly a Lenni Lenape (Indian) word for wild goose. I'm not sure where Crum Creek came from but I imagine the namer took a swim in it before he named it and that's where he got the idea!
Isn't Wawa also where the headquarters for the famous Philadelphia-area chain of 7-Eleven type stores called Wawa are?
04/23/2000
[Isn't Wawa also where the headquarters for the famous Philadelphia-area chain of 7-Eleven type stores called Wawa are? ]
Yes, and their sign features a silhouette of a goose flying which should prove their name.
Bill Newkirk
Where is Crum Creek Manor? I've never heard of it.
Wawa is what my sister called me when she was little (jk).
I know Crum Creek is out in Delco going towards Media.
What's happened is that SEPTA put out a new R2 schedule. There are extra trains to Delaware during the week.
On the new schedule, they listed the Churchmen's Crossing stop because the station is due to open soon. Saves them from printing out new timetables to add one or two lines.
However, it CLEARLY says on the timetable that Churchman's Crossing is scheduled to open late spring or early summer. What's probably happening is that people aren't reading everything, but are going to the (unopened) station, then complaining when the train doesn't stop.
Give credit to SEPTA (for once) for being proactive.
Michael
i don't know if anyone has mentioned the escalator at exchange place from the path station to the street... it is a really long and scary ride if you're sensitive to heights... there are also two elevators that go up from path to the street level if you are sensitive to heights...
i don't know if this is the longest escalator ride around... i seem to remember dupont circle in washington being pretty deep too...and i think there is a more recent station in washington that is even deeper... i would imagine if the escalator at lexington ave on the q train to 21st street would be in one section, that that would be some horrific ride... does anyone know the depth of the station there... i once remember counting steps on the stairway adjoining the escalator... is it the deepest station, or is the station in washington heights on the a the deepest?
enough serious questions... did you ever notice that some people hesistate getting on escalators... my psychoanalyst told me that's because they had a traumatic experience as a child when they were in a bakery watching a rye bread being put in a bread slicing machine...
and while you're still awake... i was at dekalb ave at the north end of the city bound platform yesterday... there is an escalator there that has a flashing message board with all kinds of helpful escalator safety tips... about umbrellas, strollers, sitting on the steps. etc... i was trying to figure how to sign onto that message board and post a message with a warning that new york city law requires you to clean up after your dog when riding on an escalator...
When the Washington Metro Rosslyn station opened, its escalator was one of the longest in the world; the tube goes under the Potomac and the station is far below the surface.
Around eight years ago I ate lunch in the dining car of the Crescent with a professor at UVa who is an escalator fan. He had been to Moscow and more exotic places to ride the ten longest escalators.
Now that I'm back in the office -- checking messages and mail, not working, silly -- here is the remainder of my report on my travels through the New York City region's transit.
1) Rode the Staten Island Ferry. On the way there, the gap fillers failed at South Ferry and we had to be let off the train by a single door manually opened. Great views from the ferry! Absolutely enormous -- could swallow a small town's worth of people. On the return ferry, the (Richard?) Barberi, there was a sign right by the main stairs entitled "ATTACK INSTRUCTIONS FOR MERCHANT VESSELS IN PORT." It was a set of instructions in case of atomic attack! I simply *had* to take a picture of this old Cold War relic (the sign, not the ship).
2) Rode the Staten Island Railway. Trains looked exactly like subway trains. Staten Island seemed very suburban -- fairly densely-populated older suburban, not 1-acre-lot suburban, but not an area that you would have thought was in the city proper if you didn't know it. Similarly, the line had the traffic and headways of a good commuter rail line. It was not packed when I rode it (noonish) but many of the seats were filled as we left St. George and most of the seats were occupied by the middle of the return run. Given the apparent suburban population density, there were a surprising number of people using the SIRT for intra-island travel and not to get to-from St. George. Perhaps the fact that the line is free except at St. George has something to do with that. :^)
3) Rode all of the PATH system. Seemed like a hybrid of a rapid transit subway and a commuter line. Good headways if you're traveling "directly" (Newark-WTC, Hoboken-33rd Street), but not as good if you are traveling indirectly (Newark-33rd Street, Hoboken-WTC, or Hoboken-Newark). Why do the Newark-33rd Street trains end at Journal Square instead of proceeding all the way to Newark? You have to transfer to get from Newark to 33rd Street or vice versa. Low ceilings in the older underground stations. The Hoboken rail terminal was a well-preserved old station.
4) Rode the Newark City Subway. It was running strictly PCCs, but modified with pantographs. The proof-of-payment system is a bit of a pain with the validation stamping adding an extra step that can make you miss your train. Interesting tiles and plaques in the subway stations.
5) Of course, I rode the new Hudson-Bergen Light Rail. Nice cars. Good headways. The station at Exchange Place is right outside the PATH station. Ditto what I said above on the POP system being a pain. One rather humorous error was that the recorded voice and scrolling message announcing the stops got horribly out of sync with where the train actually was. It seemed to assume that every time the car stopped, we had reached a station. But since we encountered at least three red traffic lights on the street-running portion, the voice became so out of sync with the actual train location that the operator shut it off and made the announcements manually. The one time that I heard the recorded announcements go out of sync on the new CTA announcing system, the operator was able to immediately reset the device and the stops were called out correctly from then forward. Apparently, there is no ability to reset the HBLR's system, or the operator didn't think it was worth the trouble. Since it is a new system and does make street-light stops, why didn't they employ transponders or trips of some sort at the stations to alert the announcing device, so that the announcements are always correct?
The area around the Exchange Place station is mostly new and renovated office space. There's a lot of new and renovated rowhouses and apartments along the line as you leave the waterfront and pass through the second station. Then, until Liberty State Park at least, the line passes through muddy once-industrial **wasteland** at least two or three long blocks from the nearest housing or structure. As the line turns toward Liberty State Park station, there is a large set of tall and massive buildings dead ahead, a few miles at most. What is that and why doesn't the line serve that area? In Bayonne, the line serves populated residential areas, and people boarded and left the train in some numbers, but even there the stops don't seem to be near any real commercial centers. All in all, NJT/21st Century Rail seems IMHO to have built the line on the cheapest route acquisition-wise, even if that meant that stations are located an inconvenient distance from the communities served. Perhaps with the new housing by the second station (Essex Street?), they figured that new residential and commercial properties will be built on that Jersey City trackside wasteland. If you build it, they will come, to coin an original phrase. And very likely they will, with the light rail to link them to the Jersey City office towers and the PATH station. But for now at least, the train has few IF ANY people boarding at at least two or three stations between Exchange Place and the Bayonne city line.
6) Traveled to LaGuardia (for my flight home) by transit. As I hadn't rode the N line up to this point and had used the 7 (see my Part I post), I took the N to Astoria Boulevard and the M60 bus to LaGuardia. BAD IDEA. The subway was slightly delayed, but that was not the problem. I didn't wait long for the bus, so that wasn't the problem.
The problem was that the bus made **several** stops between the subway station and the airport and had absolutely no provision of any kind for luggage. Combined with the absolutely crappy traffic on the highway to the airport, it was the worst of both worlds: the inconveniences of taking transit while carrying multiple pieces of luggage AND the irritating slowness of driving to the airport as time fritters away. I had presumed -- wrongly -- that the M60, being a Manhattan bus that connected with the subway lines there and with the N, would be an express connection between the subway and the airport.
If the powers that be -- City of New York, NYCTA, and the Port Authority -- cannot construct an airport subway connection, the least they can do is have a direct, NONSTOP bus link between the subway and the airport. And if one of the two Queens lines serving the airport is an express shuttle, why is it not marked on the map as such? The official MTA maps make **NO** distinction or ranking between the two Q lines serving the EFGR and 7 lines and the M60 connecting to the northern Manhattan subway lines and the N.
Though I am a transit fan and ride transit whenever possible, I will not use transit to or from LaGuardia until the subway is extended there. Even a "people mover" ala Airtrain would be a serious improvement in service. But as it is, I gave airport transit in New York a chance and it failed me. It was a bad ending that left a bitter taste in my mouth after an otherwise very fascinating trip around the New York area transit systems.
The PATH trains don't run from 33rd to Newark because there is not enough yard facilities at NWK to accomidate the hi train frequentcies of both lines. I don't see why you are complaining because at J.Sq they hold the Newark train so you can make the accross-the-platform transfer.
Luggage racks would be nice, but restrictions on boarding and alighting would be nicer. It should be boarding only in Manhattan, board and alight at Astoria Boulevard, and then no stops to the airport. Same on the way back except alighting only in Manhattan.
(As the line turns toward Liberty State Park station, there is a large set of tall and massive buildings dead ahead, a few miles at most. What is that and why doesn't the line serve that area?)
The tallest and most massive buildings in Jersey City is the medical center, built in the 1930s as a present from the feds to the Hudson County machine. Are those massive buildings still in use? I'm not sure. I'm sure they had huge open wards, like Kings County in Brooklyn.
(Airport connections)
You might have read us rant on this before. All the airlink buses run on the street, very infrequently, with the full complement of stops. Just be glad the M60 arrived on time -- you might have waited 30 mintues or an hour, depending on the time of day. The "official" airport connection is in Jackson Heights at the intersection of the Queens Bld line and the Flushing Line. That bus travels north-south down a narrow street making many stops -- and waiting forever at long traffic lights at major east-west arterials. When using transit, I actually went west to go east and picked up a bus in Corona. At least it was good from a traffic point of view.
They should have a bus meeting every N train and running down Ditmars strait to the airport.
"The tallest and most massive buildings in Jersey City is the medical center, built in the 1930s as a present from the feds to the Hudson County machine. Are those massive buildings still in use? I'm not sure."
1930s? That sounds about right -- the buildings were very Art Deco. And they looked, at least from the distance, like they were still in use and being maintained.
Metrocard chat begins in about 15 minutes at 8 EDT. Please use your SubTalk handle by typing /nick handle (replace handle w/ the appropriate handle, we've had some several unidentified guests the past few weeks).
For some reason, I cannot get in. Am I alone or are others having problems?
...........am i invited .. ??
Not that I'm a complainer, but....
Ah well, maybe I am!
I know we have LIRR employees in Subtalk. Can anyone tell me why, on weekends, the last two cars have to be closed? I notice this on my line, the Port W branch. Often I get on at Woodside. I get on the last open car because of the location of the exit at Broadway.
Just about every seat in the last open car is full, certainly all the aisle seats are, and there are 5-6 standees. Yet, unless there's a real bad crowding problem, the last two cars are closed.
So what's the matter with opening them all, as is done during he week?...
www.forgotten-ny.com
They do that on the MBTA commuter rail too. But it's usually the first car. That means on inbound trips, no looking through the STORMFAN WINDOW.
I was told the first car was always closed on inbound trips as a safety precaution. I once heard a conductor refer to it as the "crash car". I don't often ride inbound during rush hour, so I don't know, is this car always closed, or do they open it if the train is overcrowded? Also, on the Worcester line, they often run inbound in the afternoon with only ONE bilevel car open. The first car and the last five-six cars would remain empty while that one car filled up.
I always thought the 'crash car' idea the stupidest excuse for 'I feel like smoking while I run the train, and I can't if I have you cattle here'
BTW, I recall reading someone saying the best way to avoid collisions that caused deaths in the first and last cars of trains was to run trains without first and last cars. This was after a majopr LIRR accident in the 50s or 60s.
-Hank
[I was told the first car was always closed on inbound trips as a safety precaution. I once heard a conductor refer to it as the "crash car". I don't often ride inbound during rush hour, so I don't know, is this car always closed, or do they open it if the train is overcrowded? Also, on the Worcester line, they often run inbound in the afternoon with only ONE bilevel car open. The first car and the last five-six cars would remain empty while that one car filled up.]
Is this true? Seriously? Because I think I'll shoot someone if it is, given that they're about to spend $4.8 billion of our money to expand LIRR service.
Generally, the crew closes cars so that trainmen have to walk fewer cars. Sometimes, cars are closed if a large load is expected at a major station, such as at Jamaica citybound. Sometimes, cars are closed for a special party, such as a school group.
However, this is a major PR problem for the LIRR and they know it. That's why they have put out orders requiring that a certain MINIMUM number of cars be open at all times. Additional cars MAY be opened at the crew's discretion.
On the Babylon Line, this is six cars, and more on specific trains. I don't know the standard on other lines.
Kevin, definitely complain to the RR. They will tell you what the standard is on the train you ride and will get after the crew if they're not meeting it.
Does the LIRR have a complaint number?...
[Does the LIRR have a complaint number?]
1-800 E-A-T S-H-*-T
That's a big help.
That's what they'll tell you when you call to complain.
-Hank
Which turns out to be a joke line....
If you call the 1-800 E-A-T S-H-*-T jokeline, you won't get any help with your LIRR complaint, but at least you'll be amused. If you actually call the LIRR, you won't be amused, and you won't get any help with your complaint either. Fact is, the LIRR simply isn't interested in rider complaints.
Public Affairs (Weekdays 9AM-5PM) (718) 558 8228
Also, believe it or not, they've actually responded to those little comment cards you get at Jamaica or Penn Station and, I guess, other stations.
As I said before, they're aware of the crews closing cars for their conveience (I've had the opportunity to discuss this); they've put out GOs on the issue.
Give them a train number, or at least a train leaving time, tell them as much as you know (x cars in train, y cars open). Log multiple instances--the crew has less chance to say "on that day we had a special situation..".
I have seen people's complaints get additional cars open.
I was happy to see yesterday that on the GTC bound New Haven Express train that they had the head car open and the last car closed on the 8 car train. While the operator had is cab door open he did allow my 7 yr old nephew and to stand in front of the open cap door, and me pearing around it and also observing the cab, operator and cab signals.
Couldn't figure what was going on but it was WAY COOL.
There are a few reasons for this.
It costs money to cut cars out of trains for weekend service and to but them back on Sunday night.
A trainman can only effectively cover X number of cars. This allows the LIRR to limit train-crew size on weekends.
I am not justifying the practice. Having been on both sides of the issue, it's nice to have a car to yourself when you want to close your eyes and relax but it sucks when you are standing and you can see LIRR employees stretched out on a 3-seater.
Closing the first car (behind the loco) was a regular practice on the Oyster Bay line when they still had the old diesels. I hated that because I liked to sit up front to hear the sounds of the diesels.
Still a regular practice on off-peak trains, as well as on Metro-North. I liked hearing the D*30AC horns from inside the train, though the new, less lound version is not as good (I think I lost some hearing after waiting at Mineola crossing for one to go by.) Also, even on the Greenport shuttle (only 2 cars!) they close the car behind the engine.
[Also, even on the Greenport shuttle (only 2 cars!) they close the car behind the engine.]
In the mornings. Evenings, the car behind the locomotive is the open one, although the door between the cars is kept unlocked so people can use the restroom, which is located in the second car.
[A trainman can only effectively cover X number of cars. This allows the LIRR to limit train-crew size on weekends.]
I would hazard a guess that we have a mngt/union issue here, i.e. the crews work a certain number of cars by union contract. So the size of the train determins the size of the crew. To reduce the crew w/out cutting cars you CLOSE cars. Someone said that the LIRR issued a GO that crews should open cars ... do they get some special (hazard) pay for this or is it that the supvr has to work the extra cars ?
I was on a train recently where the customers were going after the conductor ... they said they were going to complain, he said see this, it's my badge number be sure and incl. it in you complaint.
Mr t__:^)
I asked the "how many cars" question relative to the MBTA Commuter
Rail (operated by AMTRAK for the MBTA) here in Boston. The answer
is that by contract, each passenger train must have at least three
crew: engineer, (qualified) conductor, and ass't. conductor. A
conductor/ass't. conductor may be responsible for a maximum of
three cars (single or double-decker). During rush hours, there
are normally two ass't conductors in addition to the conductor, as
trains have 5-7 cars (north side) or 6-8 cars (south side). Off-peak,
a conductor and one ass't conductor handle the chores, which most
cars being closed off. For example, yesterday on the south side,
I was on an 8-car consist that had only ONE car open (a double
decker).
[... by contract, each passenger train must have at least three
crew: engineer, (qualified) conductor, and ass't. conductor ...
During rush hours, there are normally two ass't conductors in addition to the conductor, as trains have 5-7 cars (north side) or 6-8 cars (south side) ...]
Three sounds about right for off-peek on LIRR.
Peek that would be 3 to work the train & 1 to drive ... two cars for each of the 3 ... I always thought the LIRR crews did closer to 4 cars each, at least that is the way it appeared to me ... so if they are already doing 4, the guy up front wouldn't want to open two more, especially if there are seats in the rear of the train AND if they do this run all the time & it's packed all the time they might be unhappy that mngt doesn't put on an extra crew member ... mngt probally doesn't want to do that for ONE trip ... so you have a mngt/union reason for unpleasantness by the crew ... just thinking out laud.
Mr t__:^)
[I was on a train recently where the customers were going after the conductor ... they said they were going to complain, he said see this, it's my badge number be sure and incl. it in you complaint.]
Wow, if I were standing on a train with closed cars I think I'd become violent. What incompetence!
Some passengers on NJT and LIRR make settlements in closed cars on crowded trains and refuse to move. After I see more than 20 people go in, I follow. What can the crew do? On NJT they just accept that they will no longer have a 1:1 ratio of crew to cars and open the car.
[Some passengers on NJT and LIRR make settlements in closed cars on crowded trains and refuse to move. After I see more than 20 people go in, I follow. What can the crew do? On NJT they just accept that they will no longer have a 1:1 ratio of crew to cars and open the car.]
Good for them!
I was on Amtrak from Providence RI to NYC getting on in RI the train was already SRO and there were two empty cars when asked the crew said they were being saved for later stops after almost throwing him off the moving train the cars were opens and everyone got a seat.
On Ronkonkoma trains, weekdays and weekends, unless it it rush hour direction there are almost always 2-4 cars closed. Standing room only, with 2 unairconditioned cars in the middle, they still will not open them. Non-rush hour bilevels only have the middle 2 cars open, except the inbound Port Jefferson train that leaves at 4 or so (it has 3 cars open). Off-Peak Montauk line trains have at least 2 cars closed.
NJT only opens the East 2 cars on all off-peak and weekend trains in the Hoboken Division (horrible if you see the closed car adjacent to yours is the car with the tables, or one of the Comet IAs with the booth in the middle.)
Metro-North never opens the 2 cars behind the engine on Hudson Line trains unless it is rush hour.
NJT Coast Line trains tend to close the cars at the rear of the train - not too bad when I'm going to the City but a pain for me when I'm headed home since I have to walk towards the rear to get to where I have had to park. It doesn't seem to matter whether it's an MU or a locomotive-powered train in push or pull mode.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On a Coastline train after finishing a pretzel I asked the conductor which way the water cooler was (long train, didn't feel like trial and error). He said there was none on the train. I believed him, until I remembered I was on a Comet IV train and unless there were 2 engines, which I have see only once, there was a cab car with a water cooler. This was before I knew that the small window at the end of the end further from the cab. After searching first one direction, finding an engine and searching the other, what do I see? A closed car, with 3 crew members lounging around. The conductor I had asked about the water cooler was drinking from a cone shaped cup. My spiteful self turned on the markers and turned off the vestibule lights in every car, and set the door to their car into the `manual' position. I also took down the little bar for closed car, hope they were surprised when the people kept getting on and the door kept flying open. I was thirteen, and often did odd things when angry.
Most of the Coast Line crews are good guys; unfortunately, there are a couple of bad apples out there. Looks like you ran into them. I had a conductor close the doors in my face at NYP one morning a little over a year ago, and the train just sat there for another minute before moving out. I had just come in from Nevada by way of JFK and the A train and I wanted to get home.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You think that's odd? I once punched out a Macintosh.
-Hank
Well, I'm back from Paris and London, where Simon Billis and I did a
bunch of touring of the various lines there. I'd estimate we covered
80% of the Paris Metro, covering almost every line in the center
"core" and missing out on the outer edges of some of the lines.
The Paris Metro is pretty interesting for its variety of rolling stock
more so than the variety of stations, most of which are simple
two-track, two-side-platform arch stations, either 5 or 6 cars
long. But what they lack in train length they make up for in train
frequency, at least during rush hour, where the trains run every 60-90
seconds in each direction on most lines.
Some of the lines are rubber-tired (the 1, 4, 6, 11, 14). The older
rolling stock has similar trains with both steel wheeled varieties and
rubber tired, but the newest trains are on the 1 and 14. They are
essentially the same but the new 14 line (aka Meteor) is operated
completely unattended! No driver OR conductor, it's similar to a large
horizontal elevator, even with platform edge doors. It is fast and the
large picture windows in the front (railfan window!) draws children of
all ages to peer out the front. (The Docklands Light Railway in London
is of similar operation but a guard is on the trains at all times- he
simply operates the doors.)
The number 6, across the south of Paris, and the number 2 in the
north, have a number of above-ground sections, and there are a few
other spots here and there where the trains briefly surface but mostly
the Paris Metro is entirely in subway, even as it heads away from the
city. The stations along these lines, like Bir Hakeim, Jaures,
Stalingrad, have some nice views of the trains approcing on elevated
structure (which isn't all that similar to els in New York, in terms
of construction).
Paris is a pretty small city by New York standards and the Metro
doesn't venture much past the old city borders (many of the terminals
are named after the Portes, the old gates at the city borders). Past
the core of Paris, the RER (Reseau ("network") Express Regional)
serves the suburbs and more long distance trains (and TGVs) serve the
areas further away. There is a new RER line, the "E", which is built
extremely deep and almost larger than necessary; it connects the main
line railroad stations of Saint Lazare and Gare du Nord to the eastern
suburbs.
Don't worry I'll have pictures of all this soon enough, once I
offload and organize them from the laptop. I'll post more soon,
covering London and more about Paris...
-Dave
Some more notes from my trip, sort of randomly:
The Paris Metro Guimard kiosks are still present at Abbesses and Porte Dauphine stations (although the latter one was moved there from somewhere else at some point). Many of the stations still have ornamental railings around the stairways at streetside. Pictures to come.
Most of the stations are simple arched ceilings with two tracks and two side platforms. There aren't any columns between the tracks either in the stations or in the running tunnels. There are very few island platforms, most of these being at terminal stations providing easy access to the next departing train. Some of the stations are really unusual however, for instance Mirabeau station on Ligne 10, which only has a platform heading eastbound. The westbound trains pass through along the wall on a ramp trackway non-stop. A similar thing happens at Liege station on Ligne 13, where the platforms for the two directions are offset from one another resulting in what appears to be a train passing thru the station non-stop.
If you like high speed train travel, France is the country for you. The TGV network is constantly expanding and you can find TGV's at Gare du Nord, Gare Montparnasse, and Gare Lyon if you want to take a look. They even have bi-level TGV trains now. Gare du Nord probably has the most interesting mix, with "regular" TGV's, the blood-red liveried Thalys TGV trains to Brussels and Amsterdam, and the Eurostar trains to London, along with other electric long haul and suburban services. I took the Eurostar between Paris and London and between Paris and the Channel Tunnel the trains run around 186 mph. On the British side, you're in for a dissappointment since the high speed dedicated tracks are no where near ready for use; the Eurostar shares trackage with other British Rail services and is limited to about 80 mph max. Still, the 307 mile trip between Gare du Nord and Waterloo takes exactly three hours-- 100 mph average speed. Not bad! Just do yourself one favor and skip on the Eurostar food. It's worse than bad, even if it might be a good way to ditch those few remaining Francs.
On the London side, my goals were to visit the new Jubilee line extension, the new Docklands Light Rail extension, the new Croydon Tramlink, and in any left over time, cover the Circle line extensively, checking out all the stations all the way around.
The Jubilee line extension is really overbuilt. There is no way the huge-albeit-architecturally-award winning stations are necessary. There is no way the small tube trains could ever absorb the capacity that the huge stations could possibly provide. The fact that the underground Jubilee extension stations all have platform edge doors, make for a pretty uninteresting ride. You can't really see the trains from the platforms for photo opportunities. The surface level stations at West Ham, Canning Town, and Stratford don't have the platform doors and are more interesting if you're trying to get pictures. I was told that the Jubilee line underground stations need platform attendants to assist with the doors since the trains/train operators are having trouble lining up with the platform edge doors. The unattended Ligne 14 (Meteor) in Paris, which also has platform doors, didn't have this problem. All the Meteor trains stopped dead on with the platform doors. Even the Newark Airport Monorail, for all its problems, seems to have this problem licked.
The Docklands Light Rail extension to Greenwich and Lewisham was interesting to ride. Two of the original stations, at Mudchute and Island Gardens, which were previously on an elevated structure, were demolished and rebuilt (on the surface and in tunnel, respectively) for the new extension. I was told that the Docklands Light Rail has had this problem from the beginning- constant line extensions have required rebuilding of stations and facilities not that old to begin with. But, the driverless trains and front panoramic railfan window view is worth the trip to ride it. It also strikes me that the immense concrete elevated structure doesn't have much "light" about it, in terms of light railways... I have some MPG movies of the Docklands to post along with the photographs.
The Croydon Tramlink, portions of which were supposed to have opened by now, is still being "tested" and may not open for a few more months. We went down to East Croydon to find out that the trams weren't running and only one came by in test while we were there. The cars for the line, manufactured by Bombardier, are very, very similar to those running on the Hudson Bergen Light Rail system in New Jersey, even though those cars were manufactured by Kinki-Sharyo. It's almost as if they shared the plans. (Or were perhaps the HBLR cars built by consortium? I have to look that up.)
I did get to cover the Circle line around, stopping at almost all of the stations. I intentionally skipped Aldgate, where the Metropolitan line terminates, to go back to later, but didn't make it. Riding around from our trip to the Docklands and the East London line, Simon and I had stopped at Edgware Road, a terminal for one of the District line services, where we managed to get a cab ride from there all the way down the western side of the circle to Earl's Court. We gave our train driver the URL for this site, I wonder if he's stopped by. (If you're reading this, thanks again very much!) As we were ready to depart, he had me press a button to make an automated annoucement over the PA system; it turned out to be "Stand clear of the closing doors." How appropriate to a visitor from New York!
My visit was wrapped up on the Heathrow Express, a new electric line from Paddington station to the airport. You can check in and get your boarding pass and drop your suitcases at Paddington early in the day, and still have a few hours to tour London before having to head to the airport. You can take a train up to just about an hour before your departure and still make it on time. The stations at Heathrow were very Parisien-RER-like with their arched concrete ceilings and center platforms. The trip on the Heathrow Express was much easier than the prior trip to downtown London on the Piccadilly line (15 minutes from Paddington compared to about 50 to Piccadilly Circus on the Piccadilly line) but the cost is a little more (Piccadilly line: 3 pounds 50 from Zone 1 to the airport, Heathrow Express: 12 pounds from Paddington.) But the ease of being able to check in remotely, stow your bags, and then take a nice quick quiet ride to the airport makes it worth it. (Plus for some reason it was free over Easter Bank Holiday so it cost me nothing anyway!)
Pictures coming soon!
-Dave
Thank you for the great report. Hope you had a good time.
Peace,
ANDEE
I found your website here and I think it is excellent! The best part are the fantasy subway maps. I do wish that the MTA would use it someday. Although I'm only 13, I am interested in the history of subways here in NYC from the 60's to late 80's. When I get a scanner, I would scan my old subway map from 1987 and if I can find it, the classic 1979 map! Gosh, the '87 is only a year younger. Kudos! Keep up the good work.
I found your website here and I think it is excellent! The best part are the fantasy subway maps. Mr. Alder did a great job. I do wish that the MTA would use it someday. Although I'm only 13, I am interested in the history of subways here in NYC from the 60's to late 80's. When I get a scanner, I would scan my old subway map from 1987 and if I can find it, the classic 1979 map! Gosh, the '87 is only a year younger. Kudos! Keep up the good work.
I'm only 13 and I got the 79 map (somehow).
It is bigger than the current map, but other than that, it is just like today's.
I'm 15 and have 2 1974 maps, a 1979, a 1980 with 1979 copyright date, a 1987, and both versions of the September 30, 1990 map (the one showing the N on the Manny-B and the one showing it on Montague St., with different descriptions in the Service Changes box). I have various maps between 1990 and the current one, including the rare "Manhattan by Subway and Bus" which showed which stations had crossovers and which didn't. I have the one included with the Daily News, and the map in the 1987 (or 88) version of Transit Digest, which included articles on the Archer Ave Extension, Pictures of GOH'ed R-38s and R-40s, and an article on the "new" Jackie Gleason Bus Depot.
Not to brag or anything.
I have no scanner, so all of these treasures will remain in my shoebox along with 1991 LIRR schedules (found in a secret compartment in a schedule rack in Penn Station.), my collection of bus maps from the 70s to today, and my Triborough express bus schedule collection.
If you were wondering how I got all these, my family in New York does not, and has never, had a car and thus we have had to use various forms of public transportation since 1970.
04/22/2000
I am fully aware of the fare system in HBLR. I am aware of the honor system of buying the ticket as well as validation. However, I have a question which should affect all of us railfans who want to ride and photograph this line.
What if I boarded at Exchange place and rode out to 34th St-Bayonne, then back to Liberty State Park and back to West Side Ave. And West Side Ave. to Exchange place. I was told by a friend that on one ticket within 90 minutes I can do the both lines. I don't want my friend who posts here to think I don't believe him, I just want to know if we are in agreement here or is there a difference of opinion. Also, does the same thing go for the Newark City Subway?
Bill Newkirk
Yes, it's unlimited ride for 1.5 hours.
When you buy a round trip ticket, is it really two tickets? What about a ten trip? Are monthlies rolling or fixed to a month?
I believe monthlys do not have to be validated but all other ticket types MUST BE!
Ten trips are 10 one-ways, just at a discount. Round trips are 2 one ways. Only difference is that the tickets say round trip or ten trip and have the same number at the top. You can enter the system with 9 friends, buy a 10 trip, wait the 5 minutes for the machine to print 10 single tickets (not even on a sheet like bus 10 trips!), an give each person one ticket. Have them validated, and enjoy a 10 person discount. An "ambassador" at Exchange Place implied this to me as I waited for my 10 one-ways. He described the rate of the machine's printing to be similar to "molasses dipped in liquid nitrogen", and advised me to get a reciept and count my tickets for long purchases. I missed the Westside train while waiting for my tickets. It arrived when I hit print ticket and receipt, and left after the receipt came out.
I read a notice about an interesting weekend construction reroute for the Ronkonkoma line while they are updating signals in Hicksville. (there will be bus service from Westbury through Huntington) I didn't get the dates though. Trains to Ronkonkoma will go nonstop from Jamaica to Babylon on the South Shore Babylon Line. They will then reverse and go up the old Cental line tracks through Lindenhurst to Farmingdale then reverse again and go to Ronkonkoma. Since the Central Line track is unelectrified it will be bitri-levels. Sounds like a great railfanning trip, even better than the "B" trains going on the center Sea Beach tracks!!!
I went over those tracks on one of the first Trilevels on the Port Jefferson Branch in 1998. It was a Friday like any other. I was on the inbound train to Jamaca which departed Huntington at 5:04 P.M. All 4 cars were open, I was in the cab car, and the Automated Station Announcement was working fine. At Hicksville's center track, we stop. The digital sign goes blank. After 10 minutes, Announcement over the PA: "hgfjfahgurfyg285y3427456hrfdeify7tyggggi^fkgkgjkjgs$(*&&T*&Gcugf98y43ugf8473tyhgfuffufMineolay4y854054yvjfbhvuwhg7456tyg7guhguwvy74wyt754y7gjfhgjfhguhugeuiytuyeutyuertuututtoigsugigIncidentjhguhreagj." Someone down the aisle says "Oh, so thats what happened!" We all laugh nervously. A few seconds later, the conductor says "Ladies and Gentlemen, because of a tractor-trailer incident on the crossing at Mineola, we will be held here indefinitely. You may use the telephones located at the east end of every car to notify someone. I think you need a credit card or calling card to use them. The local on the adjacent track (the 5:09 out of Huntington) opens the doors, as do we, and the local train empties out onto us. It is 5:41, the time we were to arrive at Jamaica. 6 minutes later, the conductor announces that he is closing the doors, and anyone left on the platform will still remain there. Many people still haven't been able to fit, and NO ONE was getting on the first car. There were still seats when the conductor finally got the doors closed. He announced we would attempt a reverse move over to the Montauk line, and then down to Jamaica. He narrated: "We are now entering the switches south of Hicksville. We are reversing and switching to the Ronkonkoma Line." When we reach Babylon, the conductor says "We will be switching to the Babylon branch, then reversing again to go to Jamaica as soon as another train clears the switches." A train goes down the Babylon line. I look at my schedule, and Lo and Behold it's the (6:09?) Local to NY. After following the excrutiatingly slow local to Jamaica, the conductor announces "We are now arriving in Jamaica, finally. This train is 1 hour and 37 minutes late. We regret any possible inconvenience this may have caused you, and thank you for riding the LIRR."
Oh dear, that's just GREAT! All those dicketydackers blowing their noisy horns right down the road from me. I won't really mind all that much. BTW, do they have enough bilevel cars to field this service? They should electrify and double-track that branch and put a station or two in.
Wayne
Over 150 cars, though I don't think there are enough dual modes. The schedule shows one train w/no change-ats from NYP to Ronkonkoma via Babylon, and the service change notice states that only Bilevels will be used for trains going E. of Farmingdale. It'd be great to see the C-3s stopping at Woodside, and semi-frequent service to NYP.
I took my 3 1/2 yr old son Arthur to Liberty Science Center today and rode the new HB trolley light rail for the 1rst time. Here's the itinerary:LIRR from Mineola to Penn-Just missed the bi-level from Oyster Bay (drats!!) actually got stopped at the Main St crossing (by Nassau Tower) while it went by!! Arthur was upset-He wanted to ride the upstairs/downstairs train as he calls it. He doesn't like the 'lectric trains and I don't care for the boring M1-3's either. Went very stow before Woodside so was late at Penn"A" Train from Penn to Chambers, Hudson Term-I used to take the "E" to Chambers regularly when I went to Pace U in the early 70's that out of conditioning I almost expected 2 R1-9's to be sitting at Hudson Terminal with their great compressor sounds and the old R1-9 smell! Then I realized that it was 2000 and was disappointed! Path from WTC to Exchange Place-Very nice ride, and fast too. As HeyPaul mentioned a hairy escalator ride at Exchange Pl, about twice the length of the one at Bway Junction!! I didn't even know about the elevator.The streetcar light rail to the science center-Very impressive ride. Seemed like a really long articulated subway car. Very slow ride though, but trolleys were always slow. Pay system seemed ridiculous, never got checked either way. There should be signs pointing to the science center at the Liberty State Park Station. There was no clue as to which way to go and you all know, men are too proud to ask direcions, me being no exception.From Mineola to the Science Center it was just a little over 2 hours. The Science Center was very nice, like the Hall of Science on the "7" Line in Corona but much cleaner. But since this is a railfan forum I'll talk about the science center on a science center forum.
The science center is a huge building that is visible from the station. I don't see the problem.
If you don't KNOW it's the science center - and a first-time visitor like Jeff isn't likely to - it's a problem. A simple sign or two would be a good idea. I've been there only once myself, with a busload of school kids, so I'm not entirely sure what the building looks like from the outside either (too busy strangling supervising five little urchins to pay attention).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've never been there, the first time I saw the Science Center was from Battery Park (yes, BATTERY Park). I pretty much figured out what it was.
The point I'm trying to make here is that the building looks a lot like something that should have Science in the name.
Maybe to someone of your generation, with young and imaginitive eyes. To someone my age, with bifocals that still don't let me see straight and a distinct preference for older architectural styles, that's not the case.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Take my word for it, I didn't know. I don't lie in my postings. The building is hidden from the station and when you do see it after you start walking you have no way to know which way to walk to get to the entrance. Trial and error isn't fun in the rain!!
I can understand that. An embankment (I think it's the Turnpike Extension) blocks the initial view and one wouldn't know which way the park is. It makes sense for the park to be towards the bay, but how do you know the LR is pointing south?
Its some sort of railroad ROW.
It's both some sort of highway and RR ROW. I saw an 110 car freight train pulled by 2 CSX engines go by on Wednesday at about 4. Did anyone else see PI engraved in the pavement under the overpass?
i thought i've heard everything... now someone claims to have seen a set of r-110's in jersey city hauling freight.... i've got to get through to cars and shops and put a stop to this rumor...:-)
No-o-o-o-o-o-o-o. R110's can't work freight, they're not FRA compliant! Besides, CSX won't ever have anything that needs third rail. The B&O got rid of theirs (on the Main Line, SIRT excepted) in 1952, long before anybody ever dreamed of either CSX or R110's.
Please check your medication, I'm sure you need an increase.
OH MY GOD, You'd have to be pretty damn slow to mix up someones saying of I saw a 110-One Hundred and Ten car freight train from a freight train made up of R-110s, Boy Oh Boy!
MY GOD! And if this is some poor attempt at humor, CORNY!!!!!!!
R142 Boi 2K
Yes, it's humor. heypaul isn't that dumb. The part about the B&O is true. They killed the Howard St. Tunnel electrification in 1952, replacing it with diesels. B&O had the first steam railroad electrification beginning with the opening of the B&O Belt Line in 1895.
thanks for the support dan...
i am at the max level of medication right now
Have you tried Ritalin?
The South Park Kids gave it a try the other night...
Did you see a movie in the OmniMax theatre? (The huge sphere sticking out the west side of the building). If you didn't, go back just for that! Don't even worry about the movie playing in there (they're all science-related, of course), because no matter what it is, you'll have a heck of an experience - 10 times better than IMAX (flat-screen).
Actually I didn't. I got there 2 hrs from closing and wanted to see the exhibits. I did see the 3-D laser light show. I'll remember to go to the omni theater next time though.
Miss Saturday's SubTalk Live chat at metrocard.cjb.net? NEVER FEAR! Another chat is scheduled for Sunday at 8/7 Central! I will be there, and EVERYONE is welcome to join (and I really mean EVERYONE).
You can get there by going to chat.cjb.net/metrocard or going to metrocard.cjb.net and clicking Metrocard Chat. For a better interface, use your favorite chat client and connect to the following:
Server: javairc.mirc.com
Port: 6667
Channel: #metrocard
An IRC client can be obtained at mirc.com. WebTV users can check out a message on the subject posted by heypaul on how to access the chat.
If you can't make the chat, drop on by any night this week at 8/7 Central, and chats will be held.
THIS IS LIVE WEEK ON SUBTALK!!!
Live Week Ends on Saturday, 4/29. Starting with the week of 4/30, chats will be held on Thursdays and Saturdays at 8/7 Central
I'd like to see more people show up. I made an appearance last night, and it went pretty well.
Is it possible to get a chat schedule posted at the top of the board? It would be convienent and would get more people in the chat.
There is no schedule, you can chat when you want and if someone tries to chat I'll be sure to be there. There seem to be enough SubTalkers to sustain good chats often. That's why I'm trying the daily chat week.
I know some Subtalkers are street buffs as well...so check this out.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/streetnecrology/lowereast/lowereast.html
In the words of C. Montgomery Burns: EXCELLENT!
I'm a HUGE fan of the history of City Streets, how do you go about the research for these things? Maybe one day I'll start a Streets website.
>>>I'm a HUGE fan of the history of City Streets, how do you go about the research for these things? Maybe
one day I'll start a Streets website. <<<
A variety of old texts, which I name at the bottom of the page.
When you're reaseaching streets, it's tough because the materials you need are rare and can't be removed from the library.
And, a potential main source, the Brooklyn Historical Society on Clinton and Pierrepont, is closed and ain't reopening any time soon.
www.forgotten-ny.com
While the BHS gets a renovation, there is one source that is not well-publicized, but can provide great info on local history: The Brooklyn Collection at the main branch of the Brooklyn Public Library (Grand Army Plaza).
The Brooklyn Collection has achival documents (reference only) that can help with old street info, geneology, old newspapers, and BRT journals & newsletters. Their hours are limited: Tuesday & Thursday 2-7:30 pm; Wednesday 2-5:30 pm, Friday 10-1:00 pm; Saturday 1-5:30pm; closed Sunday & Monday.
I've found some great stuff there in relation to BRT/BMT operations.
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks! Very helpful. since I'm amassing a Brooklyn Necrology....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Wow! As a product of Lower East Side Irish immigrants, I found this fascinating.
R16 is an Irish name?!
Yes. In Gaelic, R16 means sluggish, unreliable and dissapointing.
What service will run there? I heard the Q will run there Is this true?
Every week someone asks this question but now it is MY turn. I dont want anyone to feel bad if this question wasnt asked so here it is again WHAT SERVICE WILL RUN IN THE NEW QUEENS BLVD CONNECTION?
["Every other week someone asks this question.... WHAT SERVICE WILL RUN IN THE NEW QUEENS BLVD CONNECTION?"]
And, every other week, someone answers that question. The current OFFICIAL answer, guaranteed to satisfy nobody, is "something." The letter and routing of that "something" have not been hammered out yet. Any discussion of Q, V, K, MJ, or anything else is purely speculative.
Everything will run via 63rd. St. The entire IRT will be routed to 179th St, with all lettered trains providing extra rush hour service. Some LIRR and Metro North trains will also use this connection, and Amtrak service to South Carolina and Idaho is being considered.
Rumor also has it that new maglev trains will also connect 63rd. St to Mexico, Peru and the great Northwest territories.
You forgot frequent night-time service to Greenland to utilize the underused capacity.
Arti
Doh! Thanks for reminding me ...
You also forgot the new bridge and tunnel from San Francisco to Hawaii via Alaska
You also forgot about the nonstop service to Antarctica.
Sorry,the cars BTW will be called Red Penguins.
But WHO will the line supt be? Can't have new line without line manager!
Charles Patterson. He's being dug up tomorrow.
David
I thought it would be the looser of the Senate Race, Hiliary or Drudy
Not Sidney Bingham??
--Mark
Thomas E. Murray.
David
04/25/2000
[But WHO will the line supt be? Can't have new line without line manager]
I heard Charles Manson after he is paroled. You need a certified madman to run this line!!
Bill Newkirk
The new route could always share a superintendent with an existing route, as is the case with R and G.
04/25/2000
ChrisR16,
I heard rumors of skip stop service when Staten Island Railway becomes trhough routed. But this may come to being after the Second Avenue subway opens for service in 3010.
Bill Newkirk
Wow, you're certainly optimistic :-)
Seriously, it is planned to be the Q to Ctl Ave, and a new line, the V to 179th St.
Initially, due to car shortages, the V will only go to the re-vamped 2nd Ave terminal.
As for later, it will run to either Whitehall St, or WTC.
Remember--plans are subject to change, but this is what's budgeted for the opening in August 2001.
They plan to lengthen the switches S/O Bwy-Lafayette by one frog size to accomidate higher terminal entrance speed to prevent delays to the F line.
(Of cours the "Homeless Wall" is being removed.)
Mmmm, lets see. The E/F already have the express tracks clogged during the rush and you say that 3 services will run on the local track? The Q & R which will terminate at Continental and the V, after it struggles thru Continental Ave. as it is delayed with discharging Q & R's at Continental will go to 179? Arrive 10 minutes late minumum. Nice try, but it won't work! I wouldn't want to be working on the Queens IND after that connection is opened ever again!
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/ap/20000410/sp/yankees_subway.html
Does any body know in what month of 1985 did they eliminated the double letters route. I heard that some stop service in 1986 is that true. If you know write to me
MMAARRCCHH
That would be:
MMAARRCCHH...
wayne
Technically, yes, but double lettered signs lasted on trains into 1988. All R16 J trains were signed as JJ. Even some of the R42 cars on the K line showed AA for a long time.
The R-16 kept their multicolored roller curtains which they received when the Chrystie St. connection opened until they were retired. These curtains did not include a J sign. People knew what the JJ marking meant even though it was officially used only until July 1, 1968.
It pretty much agrees with what Larry has been saying about the up-front budgeting and sewing the seeds for disaster (and the cancellation of and subway or LIRR expansion project) by 2005. It also says responsible funding for a new Second Ave. line would require a 39 cent hike in the subway fare.
http://www.nypostonline.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/28781.htm
[It pretty much agrees with what Larry has been saying about the up-front budgeting and sewing the seeds for disaster (and the cancellation of and subway or LIRR expansion project) by 2005. It also says responsible funding for a new Second Ave. line would require a 39 cent hike in the subway fare.]
It seems that that 39 cent hike wouldn't pay for the 2nd Avenue, but the current, LIRR-heavy capital plan:
"Assuming the MTA's refunding gimmick is rejected, covering the new debt means a system-wide fare hike of about 26 percent over the next five to seven years. Shared evenly by mass transit and commuter railroads, this would mean a subway-fare increase of about 39 cents. The increase would be less if the gimmick is accepted, but that's not a sound alternative: Fares would ultimately soar higher still, and funding for expansions such as the Second Avenue subway would be even shakier."
Given that the commuter railroads already receive ridiculous subsidies for their bloated operations, this strikes me as more than a little bit ludicrous. A disproportionate share of the money is going to a comparative handfull of LIRR riders while the 1.2 billion people who ride the NYC subway annually get studies.
There has been arguments in NY about how unfair it is that one group is getting more than some other group for years now. As a result nothing gets built only studied to death. At this point I don't care what major transit project gets built, city or suburban. I am just hoping for something to move from the study stage to bricks and mortar while I am still young!
[I was on a train recently where the customers were going after the conductor ... they said they were going to complain, he said see this, it's my badge number be sure and incl. it in you complaint.]
Actually, I agree with you. I care about building stuff first, and fairness second. But in this case, stuff *isn't* getting built (e.g., the Second Avenue Subway). And one of the reasons it isn't is that NY State's allocations are unfair--they take money away from things that need doing and spend it on things that don't.
I heard that somebody posted a month ago that there will be a connection at both South Ferry and Whitehall St Sta on the #1,9 and N,R lines (by the year 2005?)is that true. If you know write to me.
There are plans for an underground passage from the SI Ferry terminal to both stations. As I understand it, this passage will be outside fare control.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A free transfer here would be useless. The 2 lines basically parallel one another south of 57th St.
Also anyone can transfer a couple of stops away at Borough Hall.
Not to the 1/9!
I know that, I just meant the Seventh Av Line in general.
I suppose that mean the "N" will not be re-diverted back across the Manny B when that work is done. That's pure crap.
That's a moot point. There will be service at Whitehall St. In fact, even when the N regularly went via bridge, an AM/PM service ran local to Whitehall St.
Oh, the transfer is available at Atlantic Ave/Pacific St, in addition to Boro Hall.
-Hank
But not to South Ferry. If the N goes there there will be no way to get the Sea Beach over the Manny B without reversing its route. That as I mentioned is pure crap.
The N cannot and will not go to the IRT's South Ferry station. B division equipment would never make it around that sharp curve. Whitehall St., OTOH, does permit trains to reverse direction by using the middle track.
Thanks Steve, but I'm still holding out for the Manny B. Then at least some tradition will be returning to the Sea Beach. BTW, are any of you out there a rabid about a particular train as I am? I sometimes think of myself as being very extreme on certain things. My wife thinks so but he understands my passions about things I like.
Whitehall Street (Site of Governor's Mansion for many years) is South Ferry (Self-explanatory). It's between Rector Street (in honor of the Trinity Church which donated land to allow the city to rebuild following the revolution) and Court Street (self-explanatory).
Hey Pigs: What got me confused and up in arms was that I was under the impression that the "N" was going to the South Ferry station. But that is on the IRT and BMT equipment can;t operate on IRT tracks. That was made plain to me and I appreciate you clearing up the rest of this mystery. Yes, you made it perfectly clear, and self explanitory. "I want to make this perfectly clear, I am not a crook."
Do you look anything like Richard Nixon? Just a joke. Thanks.
Nixon actually said, "People have got to know whether or not their President is a crook. Well, I'm not a crook." A crock, maybe. I always thought Rich Little looked a lot like Nixon, and did a good impression of him.
Whitehall St. hits home for me, figuratively and literally. I used to live on Whitehall Drive in South Bend. It was an easy station to remember in 1965 when we got off there to go to the Statue of Liberty.
Pigs said that the station on the N/R says Whitehall Street-South Ferry. Could someone check that out and let us know. All I remember there was a sign at the Southern Exit that stated TO SOUTH FERRY
The signs hanging above the platforms say Whitehall Street in large print and South Ferry to the right in smaller print.
He finished it with "I've earned everything I've got." Trust me. Check my email address.
-Hank :)
I'm laughing up a storm Steve. You got it straight. Rich Little did look a lot like Nixon and did one hell of a job imitating him. It was hilarious.
There was a cartoon when Watergate was in the news every day with Nixon holding a handful of tapes with a caption, "All right, who slipped in the Rich Little album with my tapes?"
On a Hollywood Squares show one day, Peter Marshall asked Little a question about Nixon, and Little began by saying (with his face all contorted to look like Nixon): "Uh, I, Richard Milhaus Nixon, yuk yuk, would like to trade Erlichmann, Haldemann, and (whoever the other Watergate figure was) for Dasher, Dancer, and Prancer". Of course, he made peace signs.
Remember Nixon's cameo appearance on Laugh-in just before he got elected when he deadpanned, "Sock it to ME?!?"
Nixon had an apartment in New York before he was elected President. I wonder if he ever took the subway anywhere....
Come on Steve, are you kidding? Nixon take the subway? Not on your life.
OK, call it a feeble attempt to keep the post on topic.:-)
Hmm! Didn't really think that Union Sq and 14 St/ 7th Ave were close enough to be considered on parallel routes. Besides which, almost any line in Manhattan above 14 St runs Parallel to all the others, so why make any connections?
NOT underground. The entry to the 1/9 station will be IN the ferry terminal, which will hopefully result in an additional exit and more turnstiles. There will be a covered walkway across the plaza to the N/R station, and the bus terminal will be relocated. It's not known at this time if there will be ADA access at either station.
-Hank
Are they building that stupid tower that I read about in the AIA guide?
Which stupid tower? The design has been redone twice already. The big clock was universally hated, so that whole plan was scrapped.
-Hank
A plan for a tower atop the terminal. A picture of the model in the guide. I don't see anything wrong with the tower itself but it looks horribly out of place.
...somebody writing about me?
1SouthFerry9
Hey Mr. South Ferry: How about keeping your grimy hands off of my Sea Beach and let the "N" train return to its destiny of the Manny B? They changed it number, route, the stations in Brooklyn need work, and the express tracks for that train are used by the West End. I'm getting good and pissed about all this. Maybe I should talk to Rudy before I send him a donation. Dear Lord, are you hearing all this. Please help my train out.
Until they get both sides of the Manny B working, it looks like the N will continue to run via Whitehall, while the B and D operate a split service over the Broadway and Sixth Ave. express tracks. In a way it's the last vestage of the pro-IND bias the system's operators had from the days Mayor Hylan dreamed of recaptuing as much of the BMT system as possible (does the world really need three Sixth Ave. trains going to Coney Island?)
Hearye Mr. Fred, what on earth are
you talking about, Spanky?
You claimed you were South Ferry. Well then, help me out, and help out my train. Tell them you don't want them to go to your home at South Ferry. Capice?
Let the N train go there, it could damage the train, knock out a few signals, platforms, the whole set of gap fillers, some wall and columns, the works.
You just described a train of BMT standards to a T. Make that to an N.:-)
Standards did not run on the SEA BEACH.
You are mostly right but I have a picture of a "B" type running on the Sea Beach route. The picture was taken in 1963. I nearly fell off my seat when I saw it. It is in the illustrated car roster.
BMT standards did indeed run on the Sea Beach at one time or another. After all, they inaugurated service on the Sea Beach and 4th Ave. lines in 1915. Base service for many years was provided by Triplexes, which is what many people associate with the Sea Beach (just as I associate the R-10s with the A).
Its funny that you mention that. When I was very little in the late 50's early 60's one of my grandmothers lived along the Sea Beach on 20th Av and used to always take us on the train. I remember always riding in Standards as I remember the conductor at the center door and the locked doors with little room between cars. I don't remember articulated cars. I do remember looking through the little window on the motorman's cab which both the triplexes and the Standards had. Since I was very young I might have confused the trains. My aunt lived on the Brighton and although I seem to remember R1-9's in those days there I might have confused the R1-9's with the Triplexes as I seem to remember big door windows instead of the R1-9 tiny door windows.
The R-1/9s appeared on the Brighton only after the Chrystie St. connection opened and D trains began operating there. They were also used on the QJ, which ran to Coney Island during weekdays. I thought their storm door windows were huge, especially the single pane windows on the R-1s and R-4s. R-6s, R-7s, and R-9s had split windows on their storm doors.
Although I rode on the BMT standards for two years on Saturdays on the Canarsie line from 1967 to 1969, I simply cannot ever recall seeing the conductor at one of the button consoles. The only plausible theory, other than senility, would be that I never rode in the second or fifth cars of any given train. 6-car trains of standards was the norm on the Canarsie. Heading back to Manhattan, I would always be in the first car, but didn't start riding up front Brooklyn-bound until 1969, by which time the standards were gone. Once, when we got off at Lorimer St., I saw what appeared to be the conductor in the motorman's cab in the fourth car, and figured the door controls were relocated there. As it turned out, although the cars were retrofitted with MUDC, the doors were still operated from the button consoles, although on a 3-car B unit, only the ones in the middle car were active.
04/28/2000
[Standards did not run on the SEA BEACH]
They most certainly did! I remember them running one day all day long while watching the testing of something new known as the "Brightliner" (R-32) between 8th Ave and Ft. Hamilton Pkwy on the Sea Beach. Didn't see one D-type that day.
Bill Newkirk
That would have been around August of 1964. It would also mean that once the R-32s entered service, the last BMT standards on the Southern Division were withdrawn. The Triplexes were migrating over to the West End, where they prematurely ended their careers.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
They might also think of placing the express tracks back into service on the Sea Beach Line thus returning it to its former status. It must have been great to ride the Sea Beach (then #4 train) express from 59th Street to Stillwell Avenue. Basically the Sea Beach Line is a subway without a roof. If they would only fix it up it would look a lot better.
BMTJeff
BMT Jeff: You are a real blood brother who has a good feel for my anger and frustration to what has happened to my favorite train. A subway without a roof. I like that! And is was great fun riding that train when I was a kid. The Sea Beach to me will always be Express, and #4 was my favorite number when I was a kid because of the Sea Beach and Duke Snider, who wore that number for the Brooklyn Dodgers.
The stations certainly need refurbishing, and yet they have done such a job on the Brighton. I think the TA has its favorites too. We can only hope the Sea Beach will be restored to the glory it was had.
Only the Franklin-Nassau Specials ran nonstop along the Sea Beach line, IIRC. So did the short-lived NX in 1967-68. Fred would have loved the NX, I'm sure.
Could you really call the NX a Sea Beach?? It went from 4th Av/59th right to Stillwell, then W8, Ocean Pway and Brighton Beach. It was more like a Brighton Express, so Bob in Hawaii would have loved it, not Fred in Calif.
No, the NX ran on the Brighton 3 stops between Stillwell to Brighton Beach. It was a Sea Beach Train.
With no Sea Beach stops!!!
Thanks Bob, I'll take it. Do you notice there are a number of people on this site who know of our friendly rivalry. BTW, when are you going to be in So. California again?
Hey Sarge: It did run on the Sea Beach Express tracks, didn't it? I would have liked that. But you're right on the other one. Bob would have liked it too, and would have let me know it very quickly.
.WOULD NOT HAVE ANY USE FOR IT. kINGS hWY WAS MY STOP
Right Steve: I would have loved the NX/ Why did they barfcan it? It seemed like a good idea to have a train that could take you someplace fast and avoid most of the stations.
Low ridership killed it. It was great if you were a railfan, but that's about it. I remember it on the 1967 map which came out when the Chrystie St. opened, but never rode on it. NX trains had to run in an absolute block (only one train at a time along the entire stretch) on the Sea Beach express tracks, since they weren't signalled; consequently, the total number of trains on that route was very low. Subtalkers who did ride on it recall the congestion along the Brighton line, and that NX trains crawled between Stillwell Ave. and Brighton Beach.
#4 Sea Beach Fred and others that responded to my message:
Fred:
There was a train for a very short time known as the "NX" which ran express on the Sea Beach Line and it ran 3 stops past Stillwell Ave. I think that was one of the very few trains that ran through Stillwell Ave. rather than terminaing there. If only the TA would fix up the line it could look just as nice as the Brighton Line does today. It isn't one of the most attractive lines to ride in the meantime. Maybe to attract more riders they could revive the so called "NX" train.
Jeff Alterman a.k.a. BMTJeff
Hey Jeff: I got home late last night so I couldn't call you. If I remember I will tonight. I have to E-Mail your relatives about that other matter. I like your new handle, especially since it has BMT.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
If you get on to the website tonight you see that I've told L. Monroe to take a hike because he and a few others think that the subway is disgusting. I don't like the rude messages that are being posted on the website as of late.
BMTJeff
The NX was useless, nobody rode it. If the Sea Beach had some express stations, then those tracks would have some use as opposed to being good ground for a GO.
I couldn't agree with you more. The lack of express stations along the entire line almost defeats the whole purpose of having express tracks in the first place. The idea of having such a setup, to transport the masses to and from Coney Island in a timely manner, outlived its usefulness.
Steve B-8AVEXP:
If they do wish to move people to and from Coney Island in a timely manner they should use the EXPRESS track on the Sea Bech Line rather than to let them sit idle.
BMTJeff
How many people still go to Coney Island? Not enough to justify the express track, let alone BOTH tracks.
Pigs of Royal Island:
Did you ever think that some some who live in Coney island and along the Sea Beach Line work in Manhattan and they might just want a reasonably quick ride on the subway to work?
BMTJeff
What about everybody else along the Sea Beach route. Relatively few people live in Coney Island to justify such a routing.
You have several thousands of pictures using up valuable hard drive space Some models of cars even have several hundreds of pictures. But you dont have a pictures of subway crashes. That is the best part of running a subway system having a nice crash. I am sure that there must lots of nice pictures floating out there just waiting to be posted. Even last weeks lexington crash should of produced nice photo ops
What crash? There was no crash. There was a minor derailment of three cars in the middle of a train. What's to see there?
David
I thought they were the front cars. In any event there have been some nice crashes like williansburg bridge 5 years ago or 2 years ago when the train crashed into a work train in the bronx. Or union Square etc
Why don't you provide us with some of those pictures? I bet you have access to things like that.
Instead of shooting off your mouth about crashes maybe you can do something of value at this site for a change. Hmm?
Doug,
You KNOW robertjohnson isn't gonna do anything of value here, it's just not his thing.
Sounds like a job for......KILLFILE!!!!
If he wants to see crashes, let him run his electric trains, 2 trains on 1 track, each going toward each other, then he will see a crash, as much as he wants too
I used to love when Gomez did that!!!
It gets expensive with brass models though ;-)
And at the prices we pay for plastic subway car models, THAT would get expensive too!
Back in 1984, I bought a couple of Brill Trolley bodies (just the bodies - one red & white Market Street, one green & yellow #304 which I changed to #309 with a little paint and pen) from Bachmann, CAREFULLY demolished their front ends with a small ball-peen hammer, dummied up some undercarriages out of balsa wood and stuck a few spare HO trucks underneath to make it look more realistic then positioned them to simulate a rear-end collision, the Market Street car telescoped by the green & yellow PRT car. I still have them with the other eight Brill cars I own.
Wayne
At least they were Lionel trains and not American Flyer.:-)
and instead of looking at trains u can look at ur model trains all day long
Yeah, more and more it look like a job for.....
KILLFILE!!!!
Newspapers give plenty of crash pictures. Check archives.
Ever thought of changing your handle? That's a strange one, although I'll tell you something. My nickname used to be Crash. During the 60;s someone hung that on me and it stuck until I moved to another city and it ended. But your name connotates accidents and deaths, and frankly, it gives me the creeps.
Nahaah. He looks like a job for.......
KILLFILE!!!!!!
Dan: But wouldn't his responses still show up on the website when he posted a new response? If that's the case, there would be no escaping seeing that handle.
Fred: The whole idea of the killfile is to eliminate the idiot poster's first post in a thread or his response to a post.
That way you can avoid the subsequent posts by the idiot, since you only see the handle in the post line that the next poster did.
I use our !!!!! poster as the only one in my killfile, but robertjohnson may become the second.
no ! i dont think this handle should be changed !!
i knew CB radio operators who called themselves
""the skidrow slasher "" and or the "" westside rapist ""
other handles like "" country preecher"
subway crash............etc is unique !!..........i like it !!
no ! i dont think this handle should be changed !!
i knew CB radio operators who called themselves ..
""the skidrow slasher "" and or the "" westside rapist ""
other handles like "" country preecher"
subway crash............etc is unique !!..........i like it !!
There IS a nice photo of the Union Square crash posted somewhere, not sure exactly where; shows the lopped-off rear third of R62 #1437 sitting sideways across the express tracks.
A major problem with wreck photos is that most of them are taken by news photographers, and so they become the COPYRIGHT-PROTECTED PROPERTY of the organziation for whom the photographer works. We'd have to get permission for each and every one we post.
Ordinary folks like us would never have access to a major wreck site.
The one photo of the Union Square wreck was posted with permission of one of the Newspapers.
Wayne
The photograph to which I refer can be found in the FAQ section of this site: http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/accidents.html.
It is a NYCT file photo, and has been appropriately credited as such, NOT that of a newspaper photographer.
Wayne
[There IS a nice photo of the Union Square crash posted somewhere, not sure exactly where; shows the lopped-off rear third of R62 #1437 sitting sideways across the express tracks.]
I know that picture; what's sort of amusing, despite the circumstances, is the man standing on the roadbed in the foreground wearing what is obviously a very expensive double-breasted suit. Not typical disaster-investigation attitre, one would presume!
Yes, I see. Perhaps he's NYCT brass. And the Oriental (Japanese) gentleman with him - perhaps he's a Kawasaki senior engineer?
The photo is in the FAQ section, under "Accidents". Jason's page needs a little updating, as there are a few notable accidents missing
(i.e. 7-17-1970; 5-23-1974, 12-01-1974).
Wayne
My thanks go out to Matt Nawn & Harry Donahue for a great time last Sunday. We covered all of rtes. 66, 59 & 75. On the 66 line we turned into a cutout the wrong way, (as scheduled) and ended up having to push the coach about 6 ft. until we could get off of an insulator. 20 of us proved to be strong enough to do it. At another spot we were just sitting in traffic and some idiot pulled out of a
gas station and bumped us! Wasn't the coach big enough to see?
At the end of the trip we couldn't make the turn (about a 110 degree
turn) from the Arrot st. terminal because some one was parked in the
"no parking here to corner" zone. Finally after 10 minutes the jerk came out and moved his AMC Gremlin! The car was open so we could have pushed it down Frankford Av., with the steering wheel locked, I guess?
Anyway I had a great time. Thanks again to Ed Springer from SEPTA, for running the trip and keeping us out of the way of the in service
trackless trolleys on the three routes. You just pull your poles
off the wire and the other coach passes you on the left with his poles
outstretched to his right hand side, of course.
Chuck Greene
Out of curiousity have there been any accidents with poles flying off the wire?
Arti
I don't know about any accidemts, but I'm sure the poles jump off a lot. There is enough reserve power to stop , of course!
Chuck Greene
What is the official rule regarding announcement of part-time services?? I've heard two conflicting versions, one of which must be incorrect:
1. Announce a part-time service (C, Q, Z, #9, #5 in Brooklyn) only during its hours of operation.
2. If it runs at ANY time, announce it at ALL times.
Are there any conductors out there who can shed some light on this?
As an aside, I once heard a conductor on the A announce a transfer to the M - at East New York. When I asked him about that, and noted that the M runs nowhere near there, he said, "It counts a a transfer because you can get to it from there." That's stupid, because one can get to anywhere from East New York.
Who cares about the policy, do it for the customer. What good is it to say at ENY if you are on an A train to say transfer to the C, J, and Z when it is 2AM? It is inaccurate and misleading!
Philly's 44 bus announces a connection to the R6 at Bala Station all the time (which is very misleading) so a tourist or person who is unfamiliar with the R6 might alight and wait for it.
Do what the customers want!
Who cares about the policy?
When you have to go to labor relations for several hours of your own time to explain why you shouldn't get a no expenses paid vacation, you'll care about the policy then!
The "Blue Book" has conductors announcing transfers available. Taken at face value it means just that: what's running then.
["The 'Blue Book' has conductors announcing transfers available."]
That leads back to my original question. "Available" when? At the time of the announcement? Or at ANY time?
There is no rule that I know of that actually answers your question. When I was a CR, I always made transfer announcements for what was running at that time. Part of the problem, however, is that if you work, for example in the A Division (IRT), you don't necessarily know what times the M, J, Z stop at Fulton St, because no one ever told you. The opposite also holds true in the B Division, where, in my experience, they have even less of a clue when 5 trains run to where. When I transferred from the A to the b last summer and had to post all the lines, i constantly had CRs telling me I left out transfers to the 5 and 9 at times when they weren't running.
Therefor the answere to your question is - in most cases, the CR will announce transfers available at any time to trains in the other division, because he doesn't know the service times in the other division. The transfers in the same division will usually be accurate, because he knows them. There will, however, always be exceptions, like Erik and myself, who know too much for our own good and can make accurate transfer announcements at any time of day.
Who cares about the policy, do it for the customer. What good is it to say at ENY if you are on an A train to say transfer to the C, J, L, and Z when it is 2AM? It is inaccurate and misleading!
Philly's 44 bus announces a connection to the R6 at Bala Station all the time (which is very misleading) so a tourist or person who is unfamiliar with the R6 might alight and wait for it.
Do what the customers want!
I have had some comments regarding the placement of tracks on my BAHN NYCTA 1966-1967 layout files from a few people, so I was wondering if anyone could give me the correct information. Thanks!
1. Lexington Avenue & 59th Street (IRT/BMT):
Is the BMT below the Lexington Avenue Express station, or between the levels of the IRT Express and Local stations? I'd swear it was below, but a couple people said it went BETWEEN the Lexington Avenue levels (which doesn't make sense to me as the Lexington IRT was all built at the same time, right?)
2. Chrystie Street Connection (IND/BMT):
The tracks that run from the IND Houston Street via Grand to the Manhattan Bridge -- do they run under or over the BMT J Line (Delancey/Kenmare)?? Joe Korman's site has a map in which they appear to be OVER. Peter Dougherty's book shows them UNDER. Maps from the ERA done by David Rogoff also show them to run OVER the J line inthe vicinity of the Bowery station.
Thanks for any help you can post!
1. The BMT N/R line runs between the express and local tunnels of the 59th St/Lexington Ave. complex. The Lexington Ave line and the 60th St. line were all constructed at about the same time.
2. Over. Not sure why, but the Chrystie St/Manhattan Bridge connector tracks cross over the J/M line at Delancy St. The tracks used by the KK connecting to Essex St run underneath the J/M line.
Did you have anything to do with the New York City subway cars in version 3.58? In Joe Korman's layout readme it says thanks to you and Iain Logan for the cars. How did you participate?
Iain Logan and I did the cars -- Iain had a car designer program (which is very similar to, but more complicated than the graphics designer program -- in German only -- from the BAHN site). The car "icons" are "generated" by drawing them as .BMP images, as are the graphics pieces, but for rolling stock, there is a whole additional process to make them move, round corners, couple, etc.
For some reason, the IND R-1/9 cars in dark brown were dropped from the program (I think inadvertently) as they were on the origina; bitmaps. As the bitmaps are done quite small, it's not always possible to do tings in exact detail -- hence the lack of details on the blue/white R36 cars, etc.
Iain also did a graphics set for NYCTA that includes various basic elevated station pieces -- and I did some more detailed pieces. The ones I did include a lot of oddball girder-work sections, as well as station siding and stairways. The set even includes some Flxible and RTS transit buses to enhance the street "scenery". Only problem with the station siding is that I did it only in the tan/brown; I didn't do it in that green with red roofs as the TA stations were done in the 1950's and 1960's. This situation wouldn't be difficult to remedy; it would just require the creation of another graphics set using the old one with color changes.
If anyone has any suggestions as to additional graphics for the NYCTA layouts, feel free to let me know as I do know how to use the graphics generator program (though I know maybe three words in German).
is there a way i can get the car sets you did?
If you download BAHN 3.58 or the newer version (3.59) from the BAHN author's site, the cars come with the programming. Without the programming, they are of no use to anyone.
The BAHN site is at:
http://www.jbss.de/hpg_eng.htm
Does anybody knows where this movie was filmed, I mean what subway
line I know it's in the BMT or IND because the platforms have a gap
between the train and the platform. Also the 28th street station is not an IRT station.
The majority of the movie was probably filmed at the abandonded Court St. station, one stop west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn ( It's also the location of the transit musuem)
-Harry
Either way I am taking your train want 1 million dollars and I will kill one passanger for every minute you are late.
Our motorman Mr.Green can tell you what line it was after he was written up on the Canarsie line.
Blue
Old Walter got all of you guys, you ruffians. And stupid Martin Balsam putting the money in the stove. Yuuuuk, what a nerd.
Mr. Green aka Harold Longman, the ex-motorman, was the only hijacker to survive. Mr. Gray (Welcome) was shot by Ryder; Mr. Brown (Steever) was shot by the cop who jumped off the train as it took off after being jury-rigged, and Ryder fried himself on the third rail. In the novel, Ryder gets shot by DCI Daniels in the tunnel.
Also the 28th street station is not an IRT station.
Tell that to all the people who board or alight the #6 train at 28th St & Park Ave South .....
--Mark
Well, it's not the real 28th St. station on the Lex, anyway. One thing I was always curious about is John Godey's choice of location for the hijacking, specifically between 23rd and 28th Sts. You'd be able to see the train from either station, as that section of line is ruler-straight.
Some bona fide stations are visible in the movie: 59th St., 23rd St., Union Square, Astor Place, Spring St., and Canal St., all on the Lex. The Murray Hill tunnel between Grand Central and 33rd St. is visible in one sequence. 51st St. would be legit except that there is a noticeable gap between the train and the platform edge. I'm pretty sure Court St. was used for "Grand Central".
I'm new on this net.. has anybody noticed that R22 were cars used in the movie, and they were never regularly assigned to Pelham? Also why didn't therunaway car derail at the tight curve entering Fulton, before South Ferry... from an ex-NYCTA motorman here..
The runaway car didn't derail because, "I've been riding the subways for 50 years. They have stickers or stoppers or trippers" that applied the brakes before the car entered the loop.
Yes, R-22s are in abundance in the movie. 7339 is prominently featured, as are 7434 and 7480. If you look close in the sequence at 59th St. as the train pulls in, you'll see the storm door window as one pane of glass, which would make that particular car one of today's Redbirds.
The topper is that every car in the movie is clean, silver and blue scheme notwithstanding. You'd never know there was a full-blown graffiti epidemic going on at that time.
The cleanliness of the train always DID bother me. Other nitpicks from the standpoint of a cynical then-15-year-old:
-No panhandlers, just a quiet, harmless drunk ("42nd Street, already?").
-No newspapers on the floor.
-Everyone has a seat on a midday Lex local.
-The conductor is making clear announcements- in 1974, you hardly ever heard announcements on the IRT mainlines.
-Isn't it convenient that the train happened to be an R-22 with a handy half-window sash that could be opened to accomodate the protruding gun barrel? At that time, many '6's were R-29s and 33s, which had the solid rectangular unopenable front window. If a hijacker tried to fire through that, the shattering glass could impale him- end of movie.
Two classic moments: the crowd booing the mayor when he arrives at the scene; the film's final image, a smirking Walter Matthau cornering Martin Balsam after his sneeze through the door gives him away.
Other trivia: One hijacker was played by Earl Hindman, later known as the faceless neighbor Wilson on HOME IMPROVEMENT. Through much of PELHAM, he wears a false nose and mustache. What DOES this guy look like?!
You can get a good look at him, along with the rest of the bad guys, when they do their quick-change act at the emergency exit. You have to admit Hindman looks completely different once he takes off his hat, glasses, and mustache. BTW, Hector Elizondo appears to be bald when he takes his hat off, yet whenever you see him nowadays, he has a full head of hair. Maybe he was wearing a skullcap in the movie.
...or maybe nowadays he's got a rug up there!!!
All the sightings of Mr.Gray after he faked his death during the getaway he always seems to be bald.
Has to keep one step ahead of the TA-Police ya know.
M1 (The M1 and only)
Rogaine :)
--Mark
Every part of his face was shown on Home Improvement, just not simultaneously. Computer trickery can get the job done.
I didn't realize that Wilson Wilson on Home Improvement was indeed the same Earl Hindman who played Mr. Brown on Pelham until recently. I was going through the credits for Pelham on IMDB when his name jumped off the screen. While I still associate Hector Elizondo with Mr. Gray, Earl Hindman will always be Wilson.
Of course, Walter Matthau will forever be Oscar Madison. I wonder if that's what they had in mind when Garber says to Patrone, "I hope he washes his hands before he opens the door" while they were waiting for Longman to answer the door at his apartment. Come to think of it, that's something FELIX would say!
I still associate Hector Elizondo w/toupe's
>>>Other trivia: One hijacker was played by Earl Hindman, later known as the faceless neighbor Wilson on
HOME IMPROVEMENT. Through much of PELHAM, he wears a false nose and mustache. What DOES this
guy look like?! <<<<
My mom was a Ryans' Hope (TV daily drama) fan in the 70s, and since Hindman was a regular, I know quite well what he looks like. I think Allen should have showed him, finally, on the last Home Improvement.
www.forgotten-ny.com
We talk a lot about this movie, because it is the only reasonbly accurate depiction of the subway and its riders. Still, having a subway taken over by terrorists is not exactly a likely event.
Let's put our heads together and come up with some "pitches" (for those who saw "The Player") for movies featuring the subway and subway riders. The criteria: riding the subway has to be shown, for the most part, as it is, no guns can go off, and the riders can't all be eccentric freaks.
I'm surprised that not many peoplemention "The Incident" which was also done somewhat accurately -- except for the fact that the train used in the movie was equipment normally run on the Bronx segment of the Third Avenue Elevated and the movie was depicted as taking place on a Lexington-Jerome train.
I saw the movie once, it ran on HBO years ago -- and was surprised that it even existed as I never heard about it until then. Have not seen it broadcast since, and I understand it IS available on videotape but it is VERY difficult to come by.
Do you know on what subway stations on the Jerome Avenue line did they filmed "The Incident". Is it only filmed on the Jerome and Third Avenue "EL"s in The Bronx not any other places of the subway system. Did they hijack a train in both lines at the same time.
I remember seeing Burnside Avenue, Mt. Eden Avenue, 170th Street, and a couple subway stations on the Lexington Avenue line. I don't think any of it was actually filmed on the Third Avenue elevated -- it was just a trainset from that line (1938 Steinway WF cars).
There was no train hijacking in this movie. It was more about assault and battery.
I believe the Mt.Eden Avenue station in "The Incident" was really the 210th-Williamsbridge (Gun Hill Road) station on the 3rd Avenue line - the sharp curve is visible even though the scene is shot in the dark.
The station sign looks planted, too.
Wayne
Try seeing Nighthawks with Sylvester Stallone. Station sign says l74st I believe, trains passing are R32, and I*m almost sure it is on the West End line. But there's more--- if yiu don't mind a few more errors... some great scenes of the museum Rl-9 cars.
Wrong. It was on the Westchester Avenue "EL" that they did the scenes (definetly). I have Nighthawks on tape. And the sign says 174th Street (definetly)and you could tell when train is coming out they are R33-36s because they are round windows, if you pause the trains passing by you will see that they are R33-36s trains, not R32 trains.
Guess I better watch this movie again.. I swore it was a bogus scene. On the museum Rl-9 scene note that they opened the door after breaking the window and yanking on the inside handle. As you may know if you can't open it from outside it won't open from inside. If nothing else sorry for a bum steer.
The storm door is unlocked when they open it after Stallone kicks out the window. The funny part is when Billy Dee Williams tries the door from the outside and yells, "It's locked!" Well, duh, what did you expect, Billy?
You've no doubt noticedsomebody correcting me on this subject. I reviewed the early scnes and yes, I was wrong on the cars, they weren't R32 had to be R36. But that definitely iisn't on the Westchester Ave pportion of WPR line nor is it at l74 St. In the movie the station is straight as an arrow; l74 st on a curve. Then there's a mezzanine fare control area...except for Intervale all stations between Jackson and l74 st had a waiting room on each side;All Bronx els had the pillars in the street... the view in the street here had the street clear of obstruction by the el, and lastly the view from the platform was not obstructed... the l74 st station is surrounded for the most part by apartment buildings. So maybe you can answer exactly where that was filmed?? Thanks, I'm curious.
It's possible that they may have managed to film some scenes on the 3rd Ave. el. The World's Fair Lo-Vs ended their careers there along with some earlier Steinway Lo-Vs.
If the trains were R32's and they were passing 174th Street, what was left of the platform edges after the filming?
Station sign said l74th St. Believe the scene was filmed on the West End line in Brooklyn...I find many movies where a station sign is pasted over the real one.. and remember that it wasn't REALLY where the sign said.
All interior subway car scenes in The Incident were shot in a meticulously-built studio mockup of World's Fair Lo-V #5674. It certainly fooled me! They went so far as to write to St. Louis Car Co. for blueprints of those cars. The token booth scene was also done on a studio set. The TA did not grant permission to film any scenes on their property; nontheless, the producers did manage to shoot subway footage by concealing their cameras, and were challenged on several occasions by transit cops.
THE INCIDENT tends to show up [when it does show up!] on Cinemax, or any of the Showtime family of channels (Showtime, The Movie Channel, Flix). A good place to look is at your local well-stocked magazine counter..try to find a magazine called SATELLITE DIRECT, which is for those folks who have DSS dishes. It has a very good movie section that is alphabitized...
Reel.com has it at:
http://www.reel.com/movie.asp?MID=13953
"The Incident" was indeed gripping when I saw it almost 15 years ago on Channel 9 or 11. It marked the early careers of Beau Bridges and Tony Musante.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I NEVER saw an R21 or an R22 on the #6. Only cars I saw during the Pelham period were R17s, R29s (8500's), R26, R28, R33 (9100s, 9200s, short 9300s) and R36 (the 9500s).
wayne
I agree, Wayne. I don't think I ever saw an R-21 or R-22 on the Pelham line either. Just the types you mentioned, however, I don't recall any 8500 R-29's.
lol
I read part of it was filmed at the Transit Museum. The book is awesom. It's ten times better than the movie. It's out of print, though. I got a copy from Amazon.com I love when Robert Shaw (a.k.a. Mr. Blue) goes: "I'm taking your train." And the moterman goes: "You're taking MY train!!!???" LOL! By the way, the IRT does have a 28th Street. Or did you mean it was the WRONG 28th Street? In that case, "duh" for me!
Train Buff Headquarters
There is a 28th St. station at Park Ave. south, part of the original Contract One line. However, it doesn't look anything like the station portrayed in the film.
Great movie but I am watching it as I type this and in the first 5 minutes, I caught 2 glaring errors that will give you an idea where it was filmed. The rookie conductor tries to impress his senior mentor as the train travels from 51st St. to Grand Central. (Remember, "This is where I'll be getting off. Hang in there kid, you're doin' fine".) Well the rookie C/R must have been so busy trying to impress the senior conductor with incorrect facts, that he didn't notice that the Pelham local arrived in (what was supposed to be) Grand Central Station on what would be the express side of the platform. What's more, if you view the film in slow motion at that point, you'll see another train on what would be the local track across the platform. That train contains an R-10 (car 2973) coupled to car #7339. So we know that scene had to be filmed in an IND station. (Great detective work, Train Dude) I don't intend to watch the rest of the movie in slow motion. I'll leave that to a more dedicated Subtalker.
When the hijackers finally stop Pelham 1 2 3 in the tunnel, you can clearly see the car number of the lead car. The number is 7339, the same car that was across the platform in the earlier scene. (Gee, this is starting to ruin the movie for me)
Well now I've seen everything. Car #7339 must have been built better than even the St. Louis Car Co. imagined. There are two shots filmed through the vision glass of the T/Os cab. Amazingly enough, the car was able to charge and move under ir's own power when it was clearly visible that all of the 600 Volt switches in the cab were in the off position. Could this possibly be so?
Hey Train Dude: Maybe if those characters who make those pictures full of errors know they have some subway nuts who know what's what, they won't so liberal with the facts and be more accurate in their movies.
Let's face it: we're a minority when it comes to scrutinizing subway footage. Most film producers figure the average Joe Moviegoer won't know the difference or won't care.
I also remember when the 1st Airport Movie came out I think in 1950. I was working for a major airline, and a bunch of us who worked for a couple airlines went to a Matinee to see it, and all we did was challange the reality. This was before de-regulation, and they had airlines going from one place to another, where the airlines did not have the rights to fly.(Example Eastern from Chicago to JFK)Eastern flew into those airports but not direct service.
That makes it unanimous. The film producers screw up all films where transportation is involved. But don't confuse me, it couldn't be 1950. You are not that old. You mean 1970 or 1980 don't you? I hope you do.
I have heard that producers screw up films on purpose, hence the creation of a whole set of license plate numbers, in NY, just used in movies. It is to prevent lawsuits. Can anyone confirm this?
Peace,
ANDEE
It's only a rumor. If the movie depicts the current time period, the license plate will be the plate actually assigned to that car. When you're backdating a scene the tag will be one that is appropriate to the era. Back in 1975-76 I and a friend owned a heavily-customized '67 Cadillac limo that was used in a low-budget film whose working title was The Undertaker (I'm not sure what it was eventually called when it was released on the art-cinema circuit). The production company never changed the plates, and they're quite legible in at least one scene. My '60 Fairlane 500 made a cameo appearance in the film too, when one of the bad guys needed to make a quick getaway. It wasn't originally part of the script, but I showed up to watch part of the filming with the Caddy one day and the director thought the old Ford would make a good getaway car for a quick chase scene - seedy enough, anyway. The bad guy got to drive it, though, not me, so I'm not personally in the film.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did they pay you for the use of your Fairlane?
It was interesting to hear Suzanne Somers talk about her experience on American Graffiti. She says the guy who owned that '56 T-bird was never more than a few feet away from it the entire time during filming, and that he was always wiping here and shining there. He kept telling her what to do and what not to do until she finally replied, "All right, already!" I still wonder if that was her voice on the phone near the end when Curt (Richard Dreyfuss) took that call at Mel's Drive-in.
Yes, they did - twenty bucks, as I recall. My buddy and I were paid $200 for the use of the Caddy plus they completed, at their expense, the interior work that we hadn't finished - work that we had estimated at about $500. Including the value of the interior work they did, we had about $6000 invested in that car, which was a lot of money at that time. Not sure where my pics are of it - probably at my parents' house - if I could find one I'd scan it and post it. Interestingly enough, we sold the car to a funeral home that catered to the negro community in Albany, New York shortly after the filming was completed - the owner or manager had seen the car while in Poughkeepsie to claim a body at Vassar Hospital and tracked us down. Let's just say that two young capitalists made a VERY tidy profit - enough to buy Mike a new Pontiac LeMans (75% of the investment was his so 75% of the profit was too) and for me to replenish my savings in preparation for grad school.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They don't only screw up items to do with transportation.
Look at how many times they use one city to depict another? (Wanna get a good laugh? Look at the snow-covered 7,000 foot high mountains in the scenes of Jackie Chan's "Rumble In The Bronx"!!!!)
One of the best for film errors is "North by North-West" by Alfred Hitchcock. The most famous err is when Eva Marie Saint shoots Cary Grant at Mt. Rushmore. Before she pulls the gun, a young boy tourist is seen on camera with his fingers in his ears in advance of the gun shot.
In another scene, Eva Marie Saint & Cary Grant get off the 20th Century Limited in Chicago. As they walk down the platform, you can see the background changing. At times the station is empty and at others there is a pass. train while in others it's a freight. It's easy to see that the 2 -3 minute scene took several days to shoot.
Many more come to mind from the French Connection to the Untouchables.
Screwups in TV are almost legend. Some are deliberate, some are jsut plain screwups.
In the series "City of Angels", set in 1930's LA, a chase scene shows a car screeching around a corner. The camera pans to follow, picking up a RED stop sign! Not in 1930, buddy!!
TV train movie starring Willain Shatner (Capt. Kirk) as a railroader dealing with a runaway passenger train. One scene has Shatner, after the obligatory fight, uncouple the train from the first car. He pulls the uncoulpling lever, the engine separates from the train, AND THE BRAKES DO NOT COME ON!
There's got to be lot's of 'em, this thread can go on forever!!
I remember watching a subway scene at the end of "Great expectations" in which Finnigan and the old guy (I forget his name) board an F Train at Chambers Street (I would imagine the IRT stop), where the old guy is killed after they board. The scene ends after the train goes out some portal.
IT'S ONLY MAKE BELIEVE!!!
They are movies, not real life!!! They aren't doing it to make railfans mad, I ASSURE YOU!!! And its certainly only in transportation. Its almost all movies, TV shows, news stories, etc. How about these history movies:The Battle of the Bulge-The real life battle was in the densely treed Ardennes Forest but the movie looked like a treeless plain.Patton-The scene where Patton was shooting at a German plane with his revolver never happened. Also Patton slapped 2 hospitalzed prisoners, not one. And not discussed in the movie, Patton was a very big anti-semite, read his diaries!!The Desert Fox-I assure you, Rommell never spoke with an British accent and was much older looking than James Mason!!The Untouchables-Elliot Ness was really a boring accountant type of guy. The Longest Day-The Colonel that John Wayne played (I forgot his name) never broke his ankle or got any injury jumping in real life.
Hey Sarge: You hit a nail on the head with your comments on "The Battle of the Bulge." It did start out with forests and snow but it looked Kansas in October by the end of the picture. I could never figure out why. That was a big SNAFU. John Wayne in "The Longest Day" had a Scandanavian name. I will watch the film this weekend and let you know his character---that is if you give a damn, which, since you have more important things on your mind, you probably don't.
All the more reason to conclude that Court St. was used for "Grand Central". And yes, 7339 is seen across the platform on the "local" track coupled to R-10 2973. Did you happen to catch the R-10-like air release as the doors opened on the car just before Mattson gets off (and bumps into Wilson Wilson from Home Improvement)? Nice try, guys, but it doesn't cut it. Kind of like those dubbed-in door chimes with the R-38s in Crocodile Dundee 2.
Here's another one for you: we all know that the first car of Pelham 1-2-3 as it enters "28th St." is 7339. But when Mr. Green brings the first car to a stop in the tunnel after cutting it loose from the rest of the train - surprise! - it's #7434. And that's not all, folks: when DCI Daniels is seen at 28th St. with the empty train sitting there, he's standing by none other than car 7434.
Hey, I'm just getting warmed up: look at the lettering on the bulkhead destination curtain as Pelham 1-2-3 enters "28th St." Car 7339 has nice, wide lettering on the Brooklyn Bridge sign. Fast forward to when that same car finally gets tripped after the hijackers get off and comes to a screeching halt. Note the narrow lettering in the Brooklyn Bridge sign.
I'm still trying to figure out just what station was used for 28th St. There's IND tilework on the wall across the track, all right. If they used either Court St. or Hoyt-Schermerhorn, a fake wall would have been put up down the length of the platform. The only other place I can think of would be the lower level at 42nd St., with the train wrong-railing as it pulls in.
Strange as it may seem roughly 10 percent of dc-3s are still in flying What is even more amazing is that the number of flightworthy dc-3s is actually GROWING with museum craft being rebuilt. R10 subway cars which are not required to fly and were built years after the dc-3 were first built were scrapped in their entirety 10 years ago.
r-10's had more miles on them. You can land a DC-3 anyplace, not so a r-10
r-10's had more miles on them. You can land a DC-3 at any airport, not so a r-10, you cant get to the airport on an MTA train
The R-10s could fly in their own special way, especially along the CPW express dash and the Howard Beach-to-Broad Channel stretch. Their brute speed made them special.
Airplanes are made of aluminum and thus not subject to rust.
The all stainless steel cars (such as the R-32s) have lasted much better.
Here in Chicago, Metra has some 50 year old ex-CB&Q Budd built stainless steel bi-level commuter coaches which are still going strong!
-- Ed Sachs
Does anybody remember when the destination signs on the sides of IRT Cars had green flourescent bulbs that lit behind the destination the train was going to? I remember these bulbs on the RED cars (real red, not caboose red) that ran on the Number 4 Jerome avenue line.
I think they were all delivered with the green flourescent lights that would be illuminated to show the destination on a trip. I seem to remember the Flusing R36's having them, and those were the last cars that had the three-sign sets on either side of the car.
Seems like in the late 1960's, however, when a flourescent tube was replaced, it was replaced with a white one. I guess that greentint costs some $$$.
I believe the last cars to have three destination signs were the
R-38. Otherwise, I agree with your analysis.
All cars for all divisions, starting with the R-10s through the R-38s had the destination sign for the "to" destination lit by a green fluorescent tube when the cars were delivered. In addition, the roll sign was a bit narrower than the window, with the remaining space displaying the word "To" backlit when lit up, and just looked blacked out when not illuminated. (It's unfortunate that, in later years, many of these windows were replaced by clear glass all the way across, so you could see that the sign was narrow and the bare fluorescent tube behind it at the edge.)
This was a continuation of the destination signs used on the R-1 through R-9s, where incandescent bulbs were used to light them.
The other cars with illuminated destination signs indicating the "to" destination were the BMT Triplexes. However, the roll signs for these were printed on the reverse side, the the destination was only readable when illuminated.
-- Ed Sachs
I can still visualize the green backlit "57th St." and "Coney Island" side signs on the R-32s (using the N terminals as an example) when they were new. In later years, the signs would not be properly set up in terms of illumination, so you would see some cars in a train with the upper sign lit, some with the lower sign lit, and occasionally both signs on the same car would be on.
The Triplexes were equipped to indicate whether they were operating via tunnel (white) or Manhattan Bridge (green). The bulkhead signs had this feature, but I'm not sure if the side destination signs did.
In some 'Money Train' scenes the R-30s had both signs lit up. I vaguely remember R-32s when they had destination signs that light up. It was a good feature, now inexperienced riders haven't a clue where anything is going, except on R-44, R-46, and R-110 cars. Even then, half the signs are wrong (Not in service, Last Stop, wrong destination, blank, Queens Express at 2:30 in the morning, etc.)
As I've said before, I vivdly remember backlit side signs on virtually all cars so equipped, even on the R-1/9s back in 1967. By 1968-69, it was rare to see a backlit side sign on an oldtimer. The clincher here is that I saw backlit side signs on the R-10s in their final years on the C, but never during their heyday on the A.
The Triplexes were equipped to indicate whether they were operating via tunnel (white) or Manhattan Bridge (green). The bulkhead signs had this feature, but I'm not sure if the side destination signs did.
The Triplex's side destination signs were always illuminated white. There were two separate sign windows, one saying "via Bridge" in green letters when illuminated, the other saying "via Tunnel" in white letters when illuminated (colored glass, not colored light bulbs).
-- Ed Sachs
Thanks. Next time I'm at the Transit Museum, I may shine a flashlight through the "via bridge" window on 6095 and see if the green glass is still there.
04/25/2000
I loved those green florsecent tubes, it made those numbers and letters on the side destination sign come alive. The white lights used later didn't have the same effect.
Bill Newkirk
Especially when "Coney Island" was backlit in green on the R-27/30s and R-32s. That was the ultimate for me.
Come up to TMNY when 6398 shows it's green light bulbs. The original bulbs, not spray painted dups.
But we were talking IRT cars.......
Good Day
I am looking for a current Destination Reading Listing for the IRT Cars
Can you help me out
Thanks
Steve
All I have are what I think are the route signs for the side.
(1) 7 Av-Broadway Local *
(2) 7 Av Express
(3) 7 Av Express *
(4) Lexington Av Express
(5) Lexington Av Express
<5> Lexington Av Express
Bronx Thru Exp
(6) Lexington Av Local
Pelham Local
(6) Lexington Av Local
Pelham Express
(6) Pelham Local
(7) Flushing Local
(7) Flushing Local-Express <7>
<7> Flushing Express-Local (7)
(S) Shuttle
Special
Shuttle
Not In Service
Those marked with asterisks were replaced for the 1998 Lenox Rehab with the following
(2) The Bronx via 7 Av (5) Brooklyn via Lex Av
(5) The Bronx via Lex Av (2) Brooklyn via 7 Av
I don't know which one covered which, though.
All I have are what I think are the route signs for the side.
(1) 7 Av-Broadway Local *
(2) 7 Av Express
(3) 7 Av Express *
(4) Lexington Av Express
(5) Lexington Av Express
<5> Lexington Av Express
Bronx Thru Exp
(6) Lexington Av Local
Pelham Local
(6) Lexington Av Local
Pelham Express
(6) Pelham Local
(7) Flushing Local
(7) Flushing Local-Express <7>
<7> Flushing Express-Local (7)
(S) Shuttle
Special
Shuttle
Not In Service
Those marked with asterisks were replaced for the 1998 Lenox Rehab with the following:
(2) The Bronx via 7 Av (5) Brooklyn via Lex Av
(5) The Bronx via Lex Av (2) Brooklyn via 7 Av
I don't know which one covered which, though.
Thank you
Forgot <7> Flushing Express. Don't know why its there, but it is.
On some signs, there is <7> Flushing Express, and on others, there are the
(7) Flushing Local-Express <7>
<7> Flushing Express-Local (7)
signs. The two varieties are not on the same rolls, however.
Yet, there they are, but not in the style of sign I based the previous posts on. This version reads:
(7) Flushing Local
<7> Flushing Express
<7> Express-Local (7)
(7) Local-Express <7>
I discovered that:
1. (2) The Bronx via 7 Av (5) Brooklyn via Lex Av covers:
(3) 7 Av Express
2. (5) The Bronx via Lex Av (2) Brooklyn via 7 Av covers:
(1) 7 Av-Broadway Local
3. I found a car on the 7 line with the route scroll sign in the white position, and below that:
(1) 7 Av-Broadway Local
I guess they never intended these cars to serve the 2 line during the rehab.
4. While it was there, I noticed some text. I wrote it down, and here's what it says:
N.Y.C.T.A. NO. 14-81-7347
SIDE ROUTE SIGN, DETAIL NO. 7
CONTRACT R-21, 22, 26, 28, 29, 33, 36
TELEWELD, INC. PART NO. 301-1618
I also have an image of what the sign would look like if it were laid flat out. I'll put that in a future post.
OK, here it is. (Note: the Lenox Rehab signs are portrayed in this file as transparent to allow you to see what's underneath.
On another note, I once saw a Z train that had the Z on top of the JFK Express sign. (I could see the JFKX coming through the Z.)
I'm very impressed by your graphic. Do you have any more of those? I'd love to print it out for wall display.
[Does anybody remember when the destination signs on the sides of IRT Cars had green flourescent bulbs that lit behind the destination the train was going to? I remember these bulbs on the RED cars (real red, not caboose red) that ran on the Number 4 Jerome avenue line.]
Sure, it was handy, too, until they stopped maintaining them at which point they were wrong as often as right.
Remember when just before an election in the 60's, the TA got St Louis Car to ship a pair of unfinished R-40 to NYC to support a bond issue. The car lacks motors and control, but the cars were lighted. The front of the cars lacked the proper bulbs so the closest the TA had on hand that will fit the front sign were the green tubes. Photos of the displayed cars (34th and 6th) shows a green lighting of the sign (not a green tint as caused by platform lighting).
This marked a change as the stock room quit ordering green tubes and ordered white ones, thus changing the looks of the destination forever.
Why did the transit authority get rid of the blue and white world fair paint scheme on the No. 7 trains? I always found these trains refreshing on trips to shea stadium.
They were beginning to accumulate graffitti over the Worlds Fair paint scheme, so they switched from the original paint to (shudder) WHITE, which was even worse; blank canvasses for the "artists" to paint on.
This proved to be a disaster, so at General Overhaul (about 1983 or 1984 or so), the R33WF and R36WF got a new paint job - which is the Redbird paint scheme you see today.
Wayne
Actually, some of the Flushing cars went from the original World's Fair scheme to the MTA silver/blue. (I photo-ed some this way in 1979-1980, and they are posted at NY Subway Resources.)
That World's Fair scheme looked great on the Flushing Line cars -- but I did NOT like the rendition of the scheme applied to the R-10's on the IND. The different shade of blue, the lack of black separating the blue/white on the upper portions, the way the white wrapped around the car ends, and no TA logos made them look like cheap, quick paint jobs. (And I really loved the two-tone grey/orange striping on the R-10/12/14's....)
Another paint scheme I would have liked to see CLEAN was the delivery scheme on the R-15's -- the maroon & tan with silver striping and the yellow number boards. I can't wait or the Images Replicas models to come out so I can paint up a set this way (and then sell them to modellers who will really use them!)
A copule of R-10s got the TA stickers, but not many. Anyway, the teal/white color scheme was still better than the MTA colors with the pistachio green/gray interiors that were to come later.
dark blue navy blue .........maybe dark green...... and or BLACK ...!!! would have been my color of choice not red !!
dont you think ? wouldnt that had been better than red ??
OR HOW ABOUT DARK BROWN ???
04/23/2000
[OR HOW ABOUT DARK BROWN ??? ]
Speaking of dark brown, I was told that the BMT Standards and D-types were delivered in dark brown, similar to the color on the UPS trucks.
Bill Newkirk
The early teal and white scheme on the R-10s, with the thin stripe at the belt rail, was the best. It gave them a real racy look.
I do remember seeing some Flushing R-36s sporting the silver and blue paint scheme in 1980. They were skipped over when the rest of the fleet was painted silver and blue in 1970-71.
I think the sliver and blue R-36WFs first arrived in 1979, and were done as part of the initial installation of air conditioning on the IRT (though the R-33/36 mainlines got the AC units first, starting in 1978) They also received the tan interior paint scheme with orange doors at time they were repainted.
They should have kept them in their original colors, but the MTA was still hell bent at that point in time in redoing the whole system in the corporate paint scheme, even while preventive maintenance was hitting an all-time low.
I knew I remembered orange doors. And they all thought I was crazy.
Most cars had orange doors in the late 70's/early 80's. Most forget because it was usually buried under tons of grafitti. I remember the R16,R27-30, R40/R42 and most IRT cars sporting them. Some redbirds running on the #6 had them as recently as 1995.
The movie "Coming to America" has a scene on R 38 train with orange doors. It also had TA logos. I just remembered. One of the weird things is that the Do Not Lean on Doors stickers appeared to have been placed on top of the grafitti. Instead of cleaning the door, all they did was put new stickers on?
That would be pre-GOH R38 #3970-3971(PP), and Hoyt-Schermerhorn was signed up as Franklin. Thanks for jogging the memory.
Also saw orange doors on Ramones' "Subterranean Jungle" album, a "B" train of R32s, bathed in graffitti; the unit number wasn't visible.
Wayne
No, you're NOT crazy. I remember the R-26/28's also having the orange (actually my idea was "salmon") doors as well as I was using the Pelham line a lot in 1979-1980. I thought the interiors actually looked attractive with the tan walls and salmon doors, even with the grey plastic seats.
Remember what they did to the R17s in their later days? Beige interior, with Chocolate Brown doors. Positively hideous.
Wayne
04/24/2000
[Remember what they did to the R17s in their later days? Beige interior, with Chocolate Brown doors. Positively hideous]
I don't remember the R-17's or any other cars with tan walls having chocolate brown doors. Now the PATH K cars did have tan walls and brown doors. Correct me if I'm wrong. Then the R-17s on the (S) Grand Central shuttle had light blue walls, dark blue doors with white exterior.
Bill Newkirk
didn't some cars have a light blue interor?
As originally delivered in the 1950s and 60s, almost all the cars from the R-16s through the R-42s had blue interiors. The MTA spent the next 15 years trying to ugly them up as much as possible (though tan and orange was still way better than pistachio green and gray -- there HAD to be a kickback to some purchasing agent in there somewhere to pick out those colors)
I remember the orange doors as well. Not that it did any good, although that paint was supposed to be graffiti-proof.
Graffiti-proof likely means that the paint can withstand the harsh cleansers necessary to get rid of the graffiti. They just didn't bother cleansing anything.
That sounds about right. I think they just gave up after a while.
Wayne, I thought the "graffiti resistant white" color scheme was successful. It sort of was a tease to "artists" saying "come catch me if you can", but as it turned out, the trains were rarely touched!
--Mark
Maybe not the R-36s, but the R-21s and R-22s were desecrated all over again.
Mainline R15/R17/R21/R22 cars which were pained garbage truck white were tagged mercilessly.
I'm sure the 1964 World's Fair paint scheme was a tad outdated by 1970, IMHO.
Just for the record, when the WF R33 and R36s were blue, they were BlueJAYS. After the BMT BlueBIRDs, the TA didn't reuse the name.
At least, not yet.
I distinctly recall the R-33 and R-36 World's Fair cars being called "Bluebirds" by the TA in 1964.
-- Ed Sachs
Well, I guess I have to pit my distinct memory against yours.
My memory was "JAYS" which I took particular notice of since calling them "BlueBIRDs" wouldn't gotten my back up.
I couldn't find contemporaneous reference to TA name for the them in ERA Headlights or the NY Div. Bulletin. They were referred to there as R33s, R36s, "World's Fair cars," "World's Fair SMEEs" or some combination of these terms.
I never recall railfans of the time referring to any new cars by the "TA names" such as "Brightliner," "Redbird," etc.
I found a NYCTA map from early 1967 (last one issued prior to Chrystie St). The reverse side has pictures of some of the newest rolling stock (photos of the World's Fair cars, R-32s, and R-38s, plus a drawing of the R-40 slants, then on order). The caption under the World's Fair cars reads:
"Bluebirds, a special fleet of 424 new cars was assigned in 1964 to serve the World's Fair on the Flushing IRT line. They still provide swift, smooth service to Shea Stadium and other stops on the line."
(Italics added by me)
-- Ed Sachs
Paul: I must respectfully disagree with you. I have a the 1966 edition of the New York City Subway Map and Guide. That was the one with the color pictures of the subway cars. There is a photo of an eleven car #7 train at Willets Point and is the cars are captioned as "Bluebirds."
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
The Horror ... The Horror ...
Since I wasn't going to be meeting up with family members till late afternoon, I made plans with heypaul to meet at 11 this morning over by the WTC-PATH turnstiles for a spontaneous HBLR tour.
We existed at Exchange Place and found a set of the Kinko cars waiting less than a block away at Montgomery St(more like around the corner from the PATH exit).
I found the trip enjoyable and rather quiet for a street rail line. The set we were on was bound for 34th Street/Bayonne. I found the downtown area part of the trip more interesting as we rounded a number of curves on the way over to Liberty Science Center. I would characterize the HBLR Bayonne route as a trolley-interurban because of the high-speed run that we received once we started on the straightaway heading south from the Science Center.
I picked up on a couple of things I saw (and heard) during the ride: I guessed that HBLR is under FRA regulations because I noticed the center roof-mounted headlight, and heard the unmistakable "freight-train horn" used by the T/O as we passed over crossings. Also, I noticed that the signal system was similar to that of the LIRR where a vertical column of light meant GO and a horizontal, for STOP. Rarely used was the slow indication, a slanted light: /. All of this was confirmed after talking to the T/O on the West Side line (yes, even though they are FRA-trained, the NJ Transit management refers to them as T/O's!).
We didn't see any flagmen while on the Bayonne branch of the trip. However, we saw one over by Garfield Ave. on our Westside Ave. part of the tour (eastbound). It was also on that part of the trip that Paul and I noticed genuine RR crossing gates. These were at two points between Garfield Ave. and the HBLR maintenance facility.
The ride was smooth throughout and the cars were clean and well-climate controlled. The weather could have been better, but in light of recent precip problems, I think we did quite well. It was a quick trip, but it DID wet my appetite for a future, all-day trip.
One peculiarity: on our first Bayoone-bound car the Fare-Inspectors (a team) had to roust some guy for having fallen asleep (or was hung-over). Turns out this same character ended up on the West Side Ave. branch as we continued our trip. He looked like a security guard who'd just gotten off duty, or had one too many. He never left the train at any point -- half-asleep riding it from terminal-to-terminal. When we left around 1:30 -- sure enough, he was still riding! (Sounds like NJ Transit security will be busy today!).
Doug aka BMTman
since none of my family members are speaking to me,
i made plans to meet doug at 11am at track 54 in
grand central station.... fortunately i took the
franklin shuttle into the city, and bumped into doug
as he was hawking duracell batteries aboard the
shuttle...
when we arrived at exchange place we found a set of
police cars waiting for us... it must have been the
elian banner that we were carrying between us...it
said:
at least let the kid ride the miami metro before you
send him back to cuba
i hated the downtown part of the trip as the area it
passed through was very modern and crawling with venture capitalists... when we passed by the area where people were protesting light rail last week, i asked the operator if he would play over his outdoor
public address system, my tape of the r-10's going
past 81st st and central park west...
i picked up a couple of things that i found on the
floor: half a box of ju-jubes, an era membership
card from 1994, and a loaded m-16 rifle with
instructions on how to take it apart in your
sleep...
we did see a set of rr crossing gates operated by a
retired rr engineer who still wanted to be around
trains...
this was the first time i've seen the fare
inspectors, and they gave us a hard time because we
only had 1 ticket between us... i showed them the
coupon i had cut out of the pennysaver, that was
good on easter sunday only, which was buy one and
your friend rides free...
we spent about half an hour at the end selling
dramimine capsules to people who were going down the
escalator at exchange place... we covered our
expenses for the day... and i made a couple of bucks
on the path train when i whipped out my accordion
and started playing polish polkas...
............damn...!! ...I was caught driving the harbor freeway in los angeles........ bumper-to-bumper..!!
What were you doing when they caught you?
I was thinking back to the mid 1980's remembering the "B" and "D" on the Broadway Line when the Manny-B was shut on the North Side tracks and remembering all that delays that cause customers going to Manhattan and Brooklyn and it was "HELL" but thank God it past and I hope it doesn't happen again in the future. But what I was wondering is that when those maps were published showing the changes of the Manny-B closing was the "B" showing yellow along West End all the way to Broadway. And the "D" was showing yellow along the Brighton Line all the way to Broadway. Or were they in orange even if they were running along Broadway. If you know write to me
The Broadway B, D, and Q were in yellow. The Manhattan Bridge is supposed to "flip" sometime next year, with the Broadway Line tracks ("H") reopening and the Sixth Avenue Line tracks ("A/B") closing. Eventually (2003 or 2004) all four tracks should be open at the same time.
David
At first, the Broadway B/D/Q were in orange, before the R68's showed up. Until then, the B/D and Q used R32/40/42 cars not equipped with the yellow signs. Most of the R42/R40's had black and white only side signs, making color redundant.
Correct -- I forgot about the R-68s not having yellow Q signs. Sorry.
David
All R68's do have yellow Q signs
Jeez, I must be posting in my sleep today. Correct: They all have yellow diamond Q signs, but most don't have orange circle Q signs or yellow circle Q signs.
Sorry again...until the next time :-)
David
The R68A does indeed carry both yellow and orange Q signs.
Yes, the R-68A does have yellow and orange Q signs and always has, but I was talking about the R-68, which didn't when new and (except for a few cars) doesn't now.
David (who finally woke up)
One R68 rollsign has J,L,M on it. Must be a transplant.
I think all R68's have J/M and L signs
Then they must be in a different position than on this one, since below ( N ) is < N > on normal R68 rolls, but this one had ( M ) or ( L ) below, can't remember exactly.
No, the R68 has only diamond Q signs, IIRC.
Then we agree! (A few R-68s have newer route signs that feature orange Q signs and yellow circle Q signs, but the vast majority don't.)
Davd
Who remembers when the F terminated on the uptown middle track at 34th street? I believe this was pre 1969? I remember at that time the F had new R-38's.
If R38s were present, then the year was 1967, and before November 26th, when Chrystie Street opened. The R38, contracted for in 1966, began delivery late that year, and continued delivery into 1967.
"F" service originally went to 2nd Avenue, then shortened to Broadway-Lafayette. This was your Mon-Fri 6AM-8PM service ("BB" turned here in the rush hours), all other times it turned at 34th Street-6th Avenue.
Wayne
The F Actually went to Church Ave until 1954, when the extension from Church Ave to the Culver Lined opened, then the D Ran to Coney Island. Prior to that until 1952 The D Ran To Hudson Term(WTC) and the F Terminated at Bdwy Laffayette, in 1952 they switched Terminals
Yes this was pryor to November 26, 1967. The F Trains would terminate at 34 Street in the center track after crossing from the local track south of 34 Street. This was after the P.M. Rush Hour to next moring's Rush hour and all day on Saturday and Sunday. Other times the F Service terminated at Broadway/Layfayette Street. During Rush Hour the BB Service terminated at 34 Street in the center track. There was a lot switching at 34 Street during off hours and weekends F Trains would cross from the local to the express track and D Trains crossing from the express to the local track Southbound and the reverse Northbound.
This explains the double sets of crossovers on the express tracks between 34th St. and 42nd. St.
How often was the second scissor switch between the express tracks (the one closer to 42nd St.) actually used? It seems to be redundant, if you ask me. Getting back to the original question, I seem to recall seeing an F train switch to the northbound express track before pulling into 34th St. once. More recently, B and D trains did this when the split services were in effect during the late 80s.
I was on an F that did that because of a fire at 23st about a year ago.
04/23/2000
This was the days (pre-Christie) when the 6th Ave. subway was half dead and the BMT Broadway subway was big time active. Now with Manny B south side tracks out, the is now reversed.
Bill Newlirk
In those days there was only 2 lines on 6th D and F, except BB in Rush Hours. The Broadway had 5 Mon-Sat 6A-9P and 4 the rest of the time, 3 exp and 1 Local
In those days there was only 2 lines on 6th D and F, except BB in Rush Hours. The Broadway had 5 Mon-Sat 6A-9P and 4 the rest of the time, 3 exp and 1 Local When the Brighton Exp did not run, the Brighton Local ran Exp via Bridge at that time
The Switch was North of 34 and South of 42nd
when we got back into the city, i went with doug to the world trade center station to catch the a train... this weekend, a lot of diversion in routes are in effect... northbound a's were going on the f line from jay street to west 4th...i think coney island bound f's were going via the g into hoyt schemerhorn st..
what interested me was southbound a's were wrong railing on the northbound a tracks from the world trade center to jay street... we asked the train operator if there were any special safety precautions in effect, since there are hardly any signals facing the wrong railing trains... he pointed to the front windshield where there were 3 rabbit's feet hanging from a silver chain... each motorman was issued a set of these at west 4th street... we felt relieved to know that we had luck on our side... i made the trip a second time, and once again ran into r44's with hardly any clear window to see through...
at hoyt schemerhorn, i picked up the f, but had to switch platforms to the city-bound a side... some day i'll try to figure out that one....
So rabbits feet are lucky? Ask the poor, footless rabbit what he thinks about that!
Usually, when trains run wrong-rail it is under a G.O. and all the associated switches are blocked and clamped to prevent trains from entering the area in such a way as to result in trains approaching one another head-on.
Having gone through this on the 1 from 137 to 168, if service is operation on a single track, but in both directions, there is a 'paddle' that is passed from the platform to the operator who has the right-of-way. No paddle, no you go.
-Hank
You'll notice though, that it was mentioned that northbound service was operating on the F line - no need for a baton.
Yeah, heypaul, I forgot to mention the A train we rode into Jay from Chambers wrong-railing 'cause there was work being done on the southbound tracks in lower Manhattan.
It was weird -- peering through a small spot in the T/O's door of an R-46 on the A and seeing very few signals. The T/O was using precautions as he was keeping the train well below the normal allowed speed limits.
Funny thing was that Paul and I also saw a D train pull into and terminate at Chambers Street/WTC station of the E train line. It was an interesting rail-weekend, indeed!
Doug aka BMTman
The A was wrongrailing between Chambers St and Jay St because concrete was being poured on B1 track and A3 track north of Jay St.
gee mike... i hope that they were pouring the concrete a little more carefully than they did at the world trade center a couple of months ago... doug was showing me how they poured concrete all over the rails... it looked like they were throwing shovelfulls of cement onto the roadbed from the a platform :-)
per official AFC Bulletin. Goes on sale 7am on 5/1/2000. Stations are grouped to save space
Times Square-All
72-1,2,3,9
14-1,2,3,9,F,L
137-1,9
Grand Army Plaza-2,3
Hoyt- 2,3
Atlantic/Pacific-B,D,Q,M,N,R,2,3,4,5
Flatbush-2,5
New Lots-3,L
59/Lex-4,5,6,,N,R
Brooklyn Bridge/Chambers-4,5,6,J,M,Z
Bleecker/B'way Lafayette-B,D,F,Q,6
61-7
Queens(Boro)plaza-7,N,E,F,G,R
Nostrand-2,5
34/8-A,C,E
Franklin-A,C,S
7av(Manhattan)-B,D,E
Clinton/Washington-C,G
5av--E,F
Union Tpke-E,F
71--E,F,G,R
Jamaica Ctr-E,J,Z
169-F
Ft Hamilton Pkwy-F,B,M
7av(Brooklyn)-F
15th-F
Smith/9th-F,G
67av-G,R
63dr-G,R
Broad-J,M,Z
DeKalb-L
Rockaway Pkwy-L
49-N,R
Cortlandt-N,R
Lawrence-N,R
Lex/63-Q
57/6-Q
225 to 242-1,9
President to Newkirk-2,5
183-4
Fordham-4,D
Bedford Park-D,4
9av-B,M
50,55-B,M
71,79-B,M
18ac,20av-B,M
Bay Pwky-B,M
25av-B,M
Bay50-B
Flushing-J,M
Myrtle-J,L,M
E105-L
All Stations on the M from B'way/Myrtle to Metropolitan
Part-time booths should get the cards from the main booth.
04/23/2000
I wonder if this a repeat of the earlier Board of Education Metrocard?
Bill Newkirk
I work at one of the stations listed so I should be able to see a card when released. I'll post my findings.
Probally don't need to say this again, but us Subway Station deprived folks do appreciate your kindness.
Mr t__:^)
A question was posed to me that I honestly can't answer without some research.
Which of the following three public agencies is run in the most inefficiant manner, and with the largest amount of
"non-essential" employees?
A-Our Beloved TA
B-The Board Of Education
C-The Port Authority Of NY & NJ
Hhmmmm....too close for me to answer!
Well, if you go by the 'Guilliani Rule', the TA would be the most efficiently operated of the three agencies. The mayor has long been at odds with the way the PA is run or the way money is allocated. However, clearly, the mayor has major problems with the Bd. of Ed. He's been trying to close 110 Livingston Street saying it and the people who work there are non-essential. If you look at it from an organizational standpoint, I'd have to agree with His Honor. Now, if you judge organizational efficiency by the produced results, then like the mayor or not, you'd definitely have to agree with him - Bd. of Education wins - hands down.
I'm not sure about that one. In Gooliani's first couple of years in office, he went after the TA with guns drawn. The $112 mil a year in city funding, the school pass fiasco and the disbanding of the New York City Transit Police, one of America's largest police departments, was a sign that the MTA was on his list. The only reason he isn't toching us is because Pataki ordered him to leave it alone as it is a state agency. I heard that the next list of TSSs being hired is to achieve a goal to have 15 RTO employees for every supervisor. I doubt you have two hundred railroad service employees for every road foreman. THE NYCTA is not as efficient with over 6200 non civil service personel. 6200 managers might be enough for the entire MTA but for the NYCTA alone indicates that the cancer of the PA has spread.
I have compendium of public employment data from 1997, and used it to calculate employment/population ratios.
The most overstaffed agency in the city is the police force. Having an army of officers made sense when crime was higher, but one has to wonder if it is worth it today. Social services, housing, and public hospitals are the other activities in which NYC employment is far above average -- even though the city is supporting a massive non-profit sector in these fields.
The TA was listed as employing 37,000. Based on its population and national ratios, in 1997 NYC had 38,000 fewer people than expected working in automobile sales, fuel sales, repair and other service industries.
If there are 6,200 non-civil service personnel at NYCT, then the vast majority of them are non-managerial. Remember, MaBSTOA Bus Operators are not civil service!
David
Board of Ed. Half of the teachers aren't even certified.
Train Buff Headquarters
My mother a teacher for the bord of ed. and she is not certified. That doesn't mean she is non-essential. She does a very good job of teaching with out a pice of paper
(My mother a teacher for the bord of ed. and she is not certified. That doesn't mean she is non-essential. She does a very good job of teaching with out a pice of paper )
Tell that to the teachers union.
[Which of the following three public agencies is run in the most inefficiant manner, and with the largest amount of
"non-essential" employees?
A-Our Beloved TA
B-The Board Of Education
C-The Port Authority Of NY & NJ]
That's like asking:
Which of the following people is more dead -
A-Julius Caesar
B-King Henry VIII
C-George Washington
[That's like asking:
Which of the following people is more dead -
A-Julius Caesar
B-King Henry VIII
C-George Washington]
LOL
It's none of the above. It's Generalissimo Francisco Franco, who, according to SNL news, "is still dead".
--Mark
Board of Ed hands down. There are more admistrators in the Board or Ed than all of Europe put together. In terms of what each produce compare, Ta moves close to 3 million people a day very efficiently, PA moves millions a year not so efficiently but they get the job done. Board of Ed produces very little in terms of gradutes and literate people. Look at the Board of Ed school construction authority, if they build a school its never on time and under budget and then its poorly built or it can't be used by children because the building was a former chemical plant or something.
There are more admistrators in the Board or Ed than all of Europe put together.
That was a great catch line for Guiliani. It just isn't true.
SB's right. However top heavy the BOE is, it is less top heavy than the average school system -- unless they have lots of non-teaching staff listed as "instructional employees" on federal forms. And just remember, the public schools account for 4.0 percent of those working in NYC, and 6.7 percent of those working in the rest of the state.
The good thing about NYC schools is that they cost much less than average, freeing up money for the education of "deserving" children in the rest of the state. In exchange for below average pay, NYC schoolteachers are not expected to care about their jobs.
[The good thing about NYC schools is that they cost much less than average, freeing up money for the education of "deserving" children in the rest of the state. In exchange for below average pay, NYC schoolteachers are not expected to care about their jobs.]
Sounds like something you feel realy pasionate about Larry ? I wouldn't have gone quite that far ... as a matter of fact I know some teachers in NYC & Nassau that DO CARE ABOUT THEIR JOBS, one of them to an extreme ... she works in my school district & won't engage in ANY negitive conversation about it. The couple that works for NYC, he's in the back office & she teaches ... they seem to CARE about the quality of the job they are doing. Maybe they're the exceptions ?
Mr t__:^)
(Are the teachers who care about their jobs the exceptions)
Not necessarily. The problem is you have a high percentage of slackers, and you can't get rid of them. Since the city pays less, it gets more slackers. Unlike City Planning, there is no way for employees who care to balance those who do not, since there is one teacher per class. Some kids just get stuck. I'd say about one in three teachers in the public schools are barely showing up. The suburbs are rich enough to find places for those folks, and the patronage appointees, outside the classroom.
Moreover, the environment in the public schools turns teachers who care into slackers. With no support, and considerable burdens, from outside the classroom, teachers burn out.
My point is you can't say that the city schools are top heavy or over-funded. By national standards, they are under-funded. Any waste, inefficiency, or indifference just diminished the quality of education further, rather than add to the cost.
Hello, BOE educates almost 1.1 Million Students in 1,200 locations (campus) is the 3rd largest public property manager (DOD and Post Office) in square footage on an 9 Billion Dollar budget (larger than 15 state budgets) with over 75% of the buildings built before 1980, (don't have the chart in front of me) 100's of buildings that are over 80 years old. 200 or so Coal Fired heating plants (via special exception to the 70's clean air act).
I think the infrasturture at the BOE is a whole lot different than the TA. There are only 1,000 skiled trade (full journey men) mechanics on payroll and the hoops you have to jump through to put a repair contract out are plain stupid (lowerst bidder mind you). And please don't for get the SCA (School Contruction Authority) who does not just build schools, they handle the Capitl Budget/Plan for BOE and they never tell the BOE they are replacing a roof and such and we have roofers patching and they show up to redo the whole roof. It boggles the mind.
Great input Lou, I love it when someone comes back at Larry with facts of their own, I suspect he likes it too ;-) ... and now back on topic.
Mr t
[Hello, BOE educates almost 1.1 Million Students in 1,200 locations (campus) is the 3rd largest public property manager (DOD and Post Office) in square footage on an 9 Billion Dollar budget (larger than 15 state budgets) with over 75% of the buildings built before 1980, (don't have the chart in front of me) 100's of buildings that are over 80 years old. 200 or so Coal Fired heating plants (via special exception to the 70's clean air act).]
It really bugs me that they keep going on about how old the buildings are. Buildings last indefinitely if maintained. Replacing grand and commodious old buildings with cinderblock monstrosities is neither sensible nor economical. The answer is to keep them in good shape.
As to those coal fired boilers--if anyone still believes that government is competent in any way, shape, or form, let them explain the wisdom of that.
But whats true is that upon investigation many admistrators were never found or did not exist. Board of Ed needs to be revamped and the local board system needs to be destroyed! We need a Board or Ed Czar who controls every facet of the operation. Its a joke.
[But whats true is that upon investigation many admistrators were never found or did not exist. Board of Ed needs to be revamped and the local board system needs to be destroyed! We need a Board or Ed Czar who controls every facet of the operation. Its a joke.]
Amazing. And you're absolutely right, but you should have added that the czar should report to the mayor, the elected official who can be held responsible for the performance of the schools. The BOE was supposed to depoliticize the schools, but it's had the opposite effect; and the local boards are even worse.
[Ta moves close to 3 million people a day very efficiently]
Except that it could be done with half the employees . . .
Right now in in the Department of Buses there is a shortage of bus operators in every depot especially in MABSTOA. In the depot that I work in as a supervisor many runs go down because there are not enough operators to fill them. This also applies to Westside and Manhattanville. If we had half the employees Im sure that lots of work would go down in all departments including the subways. Sure we have lots of management but remember that when we had bad times lots of them were laid off and demoted.
[... a shortage of bus operators in every depot ...]
Sound like someone in management/personnel forgot to start a class ?
At this depot a new batch of rookies are comming on line. We do it every year in the early Spring so we have enough to cover Summer vacations & if we guess right just enough to make up for retirees when the Fall arrives. It is something that mngt. has to think about carefully as new drivers want to work, so you don't want too many or too few so that OT goes thru the roof.
Mr t__:^)
Currently the training department is starting a class every TWO weeks of 100 students. Sometimes there are not enough Superindendents for training and training occurs at night because there are not enough buses for the usual 7am-3pm classes.
Between retirements, promotions and added runs we running on a lot of overtime. In fact, last weekend 17 runs at my depot were operators working their day off.
It makes you wonder if the suits at Jay Street are in touch with reality, i.e. after all the new buses come in the fleet it is only going up by 100 buses ... are the suits at the depots allowed input ?
At this depot we have the extra buses that the customers need just waiting for the farebox order.
Mr t__:^)
[Right now in in the Department of Buses there is a shortage of bus operators in every depot especially in MABSTOA. In the depot that I work in as a supervisor many runs go down because there are not enough operators to fill them. This also applies to Westside and Manhattanville. If we had half the employees Im sure that lots of work would go down in all departments including the subways. Sure we have lots of management but remember that when we had bad times lots of them were laid off and demoted.]
Certainly, with current work arrangements you couldn't get by with half the employees, and half a man can't drive a bus! But eliminating the majority of conductors and token clerks would not effect service. In the case of buses, the labor savings aren't so clear cut (I'm generally talking about subways, even when I don't say so), but I wonder at the efficiency of a system that wastes much of a bus driver's time loading passengers through one door onto grossly overcrowded buses. It seems to me that it would be more economical--and much faster for passengers--to have subway style loading from turnstyle-equipped ministations, basically a four sided bus shelter, in crowded areas. The bus would pass a code to the ministation, which would unlock a spring loaded gate.
Montreal's R-Bus on Boulevard Pie-IX is the best example I can think of. They use rush-hour only contraflow lanes with island prepayment stations. Doors on the stations line up with bus doors, boarding is from front and rear. So the bus is like a virtual rail service; you wait in a heated station, get on your bus without getting wet, and alight inside a rail station for transfer to the Metro. Neat stuff.
[Montreal's R-Bus on Boulevard Pie-IX is the best example I can think of. They use rush-hour only contraflow lanes with island prepayment stations. Doors on the stations line up with bus doors, boarding is from front and rear. So the bus is like a virtual rail service; you wait in a heated station, get on your bus without getting wet, and alight inside a rail station for transfer to the Metro. Neat stuff.]
Interesting on several counts. I think contraflow lanes could work nicely here in NY, where the bus lanes are too frequently treated as fair game for everything from taxicabs to moving vans. And I can see strong possibilities for supplmenting and even improving the subway system with quick loading limited stop bus service feeding express stations and effectively extending lines.
And Bus lanes are used as right-turn lanes, legally.
[And Bus lanes are used as right-turn lanes, legally.]
Worst of all.
What do you want then? People should cross in front of a moving bus to make a right turn? Busses should be placed in contra-flow lanes separated from the rest of the road with Jersey Barriers.
[What do you want then? People should cross in front of a moving bus to make a right turn? Busses should be placed in contra-flow lanes separated from the rest of the road with Jersey Barriers.]
I've already said I favor contraflow lanes. NJ barriers would not be necessary--we have two way streets, after all. But there are other solutions; for example, turning could be banned in the bus lane and permitted only during a turn signal, as at 42nd and third.
Well, with CF lanes, you would cross the bus lane (not be in it) on a turn. It would be just like a left turn, you would see the oncoming bus ahead.
[Well, with CF lanes, you would cross the bus lane (not be in it) on a turn. It would be just like a left turn, you would see the oncoming bus ahead.]
True. As I see it, the main purpose of the counterflow lanes is to induce other traffic to keep out.
Josh, based on what do you make this claim? What are your qualifications and or credentials? Anyone can throw idiotic statements around but until you can back them up, it's just so much crap.
Let me echo the Tain Dude & Supt. extraordinair's comments ... it's easy to make a blank statement. Granted I am the first to admit that there are a LOT of folks working for the MTA & TA & nycDOT, but which ones are redundant, not required, etc. Several here don't think a private firm wouldn't do any better. Again I'll admit if a private firm isn't supervised correctly they'll concentrate on profits and nothing else.
The goal here should be to provide a high level of SERVICE (that's operations & maintenance); think up ways to get more folks out of their cars (the appearance of the subway station has something to do with that, as does how safe folks feel riding the system ... you need back room folks to do this), AND some need to be planning future expansions, again that requires back room folks.
There are many here who will engage you in a thoughtful debate. So lets have a few lines of input from you ?
Mr t__:^)
[Let me echo the Tain Dude & Supt. extraordinair's comments ... it's easy to make a blank statement. Granted I am the first to admit that there are a LOT of folks working for the MTA & TA & nycDOT, but which ones are redundant, not required, etc. Several here don't think a private firm wouldn't do any better. Again I'll admit if a private firm isn't supervised correctly they'll concentrate on profits and nothing else.
The goal here should be to provide a high level of SERVICE (that's operations & maintenance); think up ways to get more folks out of their cars (the appearance of the subway station has something to do with that, as does how safe folks feel riding the system ... you need back room folks to do this), AND some need to be planning future expansions, again that requires back room folks.
There are many here who will engage you in a thoughtful debate. So lets have a few lines of input from you ?
Mr t__:^)]
Sorry if I left out the details--these issues have been debated these issues so often here and on Usenet that I sort of assumed that everybody knew where I stood.
I already mentioned OPTO and unattended station operation, which seem to me the essence of more efficient labor usage. There are other issues of efficiency--we've seen plenty of complaints here about useless managers and so on--but not being involved with the TA in a professional capacity there are others here far more qualified to comment on them than I am.
Suffice it to say that I'm not interested in eliminating jobs or cutting wages, but rather in making more efficient use of the existing labor force. I'm a big believer in a good day's pay for a good day's work, but beyond that, it just doesn't make sense to me to have two people operating a train when they could be operating *two* trains and offering better service.
Hmmm . . . here's what I'd like to see:
-A seat for pretty much everybody during rush hour. The City has to compete with suburban regions for jobs and residents, and standing-room-only transit service, which dates from a time when people were much poorer than they are today, isn't competitive with car rides.
-Subway stations that are neat, clean, heated, air conditioned, and quiet in areas frequented by middle class residents. I'd like to see the poor have that level of service too, but frankly, I don't think that's particularly high on the priorities of people who are struggling to pay the rent, which is why I favor a special regional assessment--people in middle class areas would pay for the extra services they receive.
-Faster service. Service has slowed down to the point that in some places people find it faster to take the bus. I don't think the City can compete for middle class residents when they can get here faster by commuter RR than by subway.
-Better coverage. The East Side of Manhattan is obviously the worst problem right now, but many other areas are underserved as well. We need a full four track second avenue subway, more service on the E and F, improved crosstown links, and extensions of subway service that use existing infrastructure in the most economical way--by sharing or adapting RR tracks, adding subway-loading bus extensions, etc. We need to look at the flow of passengers and fix the bottlenecks.
-Modernization. That means moving to ZPTO and platform doors, beginning with the Second Avenue line.
Anyway, as I see it, to achieve those goals--to make the subways a regional *asset* for other than the poor, for whom it remains a wonderful baragain compared to the cost of owning a car--means shifting labor assets. OPTO would give us more than enough operators to provide a guaranteed seat. Some token clerks could patrol the system Bratton style, as a first line of defense against bums, musicians, vandalism and crime. Beyond that, the issues are thornier. We need to buy and maintain more subway cars, and renovate stations. We need to build new lines and link and improve existing facilities. It's hard to see how you can do this with excess token clerks, managers, and conductors. Keeping to the no-layoff policy, I'd favor retraining as the best option--depending on qualifications, some could go into construction, maintenance, and cleaning. After that, you'd use buyouts, which are generally an attractive deal for both parties. And I'd shift money from pensions and such to wages, as a zero sum game, to make the system a more competitive employer.
(And I'd shift money from pensions and such to wages, as a zero sum game, to make the system a more competitive employer).
You hit the nail on the head when it comes to civil service personnel policy. In NYC, the government is only a good employer for those who do NOT work, either by goldbricking or retiring early. Those who work are underpaid, and since the pensions have become less generous and favor long term employees, young recent hires and those moving into civil service in mid-career are especially underpaid.
[You hit the nail on the head when it comes to civil service personnel policy.]
Not surprising you'd say so, because I learned about this particular problem from you .
[OPTO would give us more than enough operators to provide a guaranteed seat. Some token clerks could patrol the system Bratton style, as a first line of defense against bums, musicians, vandalism and crime.]
This is one area where I have a fundamental difference with you. Based on the volume of folks that use the subways I feel a mim crew of two is needed for customer service & operations efficiency, e.g. in case of a break down a one person crew is going to inconvoience customers a lot longer to get that train moved. Also from the safety & security stand point (let alone the one person being able to SEE what happening when the doors close) two is a minimum in my mind. At the stations, as I've said before I feel the TA's unspoken goal is to reduce staff, they may not lay anyone off & it may only start with lunch relief or some other short period of time gap, but it's going to happen ... mngt. is going to see Station Agents standing around and going to want to do something about it. The result will be bad for the traveling public.
The efficiency/cost effective labor use issue I think relates to the back room folks ... could a contractor do it better/cheeper/faster ... the data base should be used a lot more vs. staff doing surveys, etc.
Maybe a "Smart Card" replacement of the dip/swipe card will help save the MTA/TA some of this cost ?
Other then that, some interesting thoughtful remarks, e.g.
[-Faster service. Service has slowed down to the point that in some places people find it faster to take the bus. I don't think the City can compete for middle class residents when they can get here faster by commuter RR than by subway.]
It does seem that the TA is over managing the system with the result that it is slowing it down ... Hippos, lights to slow the trains down, etc. .... can't they monitor the train speed remotely & highlight a run that's doing something wrong, then bring the T/O in for re-training or something. To me the time it takes to go from A to B is more important then making it imposible for there ever to be a accident. What may be involved here is lack of monitoring the trains in service and assuming that they will all make it to the next scheduled service ... that may save some money but it's a pritty stupid mentality !
Mr t__:^)
[OPTO would give us more than enough operators to provide a guaranteed seat. Some token clerks could patrol the system Bratton style, as a first line of defense against bums, musicians, vandalism and crime.]
OPTO could NEVER provide a seat for everyone when you consider the number of people moving through Penn Station or Grand Central. Trains are pulling in continuously and they still dont have the capacity !!!. On the Lex if the number of trains were doubled (an impossible task especially on the express) it still would have standees.
[OPTO could NEVER provide a seat for everyone when you consider the number of people moving through Penn Station or Grand Central. Trains are pulling in continuously and they still dont have the capacity !!!. On the Lex if the number of trains were doubled (an impossible task especially on the express) it still would have standees.]
I'm not aware of any lines other than the #7 that are operating at their theoretical capacity. The system used to handle more trains, and many more passengers, than it does today, and I've yet to read a truly convincing explanation of why that's the case. More frequently than not, it turns out that the MTA doesn't have enough available rolling stock to provide sufficient service.
Here's the best take I've seen so far on the situation is Steve Baumann's:
"Re: Keying-By (rant)
Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Mar 27 07:23:23 2000, in response to Re: Keying-By (rant), posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Mar 26 23:13:12 2000
90 tph was achieved only on the Brooklyn Bridge between Park Row and Sands St. Permissive blocks were not key to this operation. It was designed to perform this way. All trains operated at speed.
The present system is designed to permit 90 second intervals between trains. This translates to 40 tph. Running trains at this rate subjects them to yellow and red aspects due to the placement of stations relative to one another. This can be avoided by adding a 10 to 30 seconds cushion to the schedule thereby reducing the maximum rate to 30 to 36 tph. Trains will not encounter a yellow or red aspect, when scheduled at this rate.
The 90 second interval was determined by the braking rate (1.5 mph/s) then in place. Braking rates double that were running in the 1930's. Braking rates of 7 mph/s are possible with track brakes but will cause injuries to the passengers if applied. Rates around 4 mph/s can be applied. Acceleration rates of 4 mph/s are used elsewhere. Using faster equipment and retiming the signals would reduce the interval to 80 seconds and should permit 40 tph. NYCT equipment is still
mired in the lower performance rates by design.
NYCT currently runs 24 to 27 tph on all lines except the #7 which runs 29. They do not have enough equipment to run more trains. This presents an additional problem - dwell time. Today's equipment does not permit passengers to enter and exit as quickly as the first generation equipment. As train frequency is decreased individual car loading increases proportionately. However, loading/unloading times increase faster. This is the crux of the problem - not lack of keying-by."
Which is to say that we need more trains (with more door width), more personnel, a modernization of the signal and braking systems, and possibly other changes before we have the right to complain about capacity. Even the Lexington Avenue Express, currently operating at 128% capacity, would be within capacity if the signal system permitted 40 tph. It would be far from providing a guaranteed seat, but there are other ways to do that.
my contacts with subtalker chicago motorman and some others tell me most motormen & motorwomen
do not loke the one person type operation ....... and give some of thier reasons why including but not that
some of these transit companies either too lazy and or cheap to errror not to have a conductor etc..
to keep some added safety that a conductor in the middle of the train adds to the mix.....!!!!
[This is one area where I have a fundamental difference with you. Based on the volume of folks that use the subways I feel a mim crew of two is needed for customer service & operations efficiency, e.g. in case of a break down a one person crew is going to inconvoience customers a lot longer to get that train moved. Also from the safety & security stand point (let alone the one person being able to SEE what happening when the doors close) two is a minimum in my mind.]
Delays: the question as I see it is whether a few additional delays caused by having only person available in case of a breakdown is worth paying twice as much for labor costs. Or to look at it another way, wouldn't it save passengers more time overall to have more frequent service and a few more delays? OTOH, I don't hink you'd want to go to OPTO on a really overloaded line like the Lex.
Safety: I'm assuming good coverage with video monitors. If that's not enough, the doors could be equipped with elevator style sensors; as it is, people can get dragged like that kid did a while back. The result would be an overall increase in safety.
[At the stations, as I've said before I feel the TA's unspoken goal is to reduce staff, they may not lay anyone off & it may only start with lunch relief or some other short period of time gap, but it's going to happen ... mngt. is going to see Station Agents standing around and going to want to do something about it. The result will be bad for the traveling public.]
I agree with the first, but not entirely with the second. Unattended stations work well on PATH and in places like the uptown side of the 7th Avenue el, and I don't see why they wouldn't work in any but the most crowded stations or dangerous stations on the subway. My fear would be that MTA management would ignore the latter situations and create jamups at places like Grand Central Terminal.
[The efficiency/cost effective labor use issue I think relates to the back room folks ... could a contractor do it better/cheeper/faster ... the data base should be used a lot more vs. staff doing surveys, etc.
Maybe a "Smart Card" replacement of the dip/swipe card will help save the MTA/TA some of this cost ?]
The problem with outside contractors is that too often they just charge the City inflated prices and provide substandard work. Still, I can see them being effective in certain areas.
[Other then that, some interesting thoughtful remarks, e.g.]
It does seem that the TA is over managing the system with the result that it is slowing it down ... Hippos, lights to slow the trains down, etc. .... can't they monitor the train speed remotely & highlight a run that's doing something wrong, then bring the T/O in for re-training or something. To me the time it takes to go from A to B is more important then making it imposible for there ever to be a accident. What may be involved here is lack of monitoring the trains in service and assuming that they will all make it to the next scheduled service ... that may save some money but it's a pritty stupid mentality !]
From what I've read here, the TA's entire attitude towards scheduling is fairly bizarre. But what I find most incredible is that the TA violated basic safety principles by emasculating the brakes, had a serious accident as a result, and then dealt with the problem by slowing the trains. What we're seeing I think is a bureaucracy that cares a lot more about butt covering than service.
why is opto so great and superior ??
[Delays: ... few additional delays caused by having only person available in case of a breakdown is worth paying twice as much for labor costs ... wouldn't it save passengers more time overall to have more frequent service ...
Safety: I'm assuming good coverage with video monitors ... and ... doors could be equipped with elevator style sensors ...]
Well, I lump these two togather, i.e. with the volume of folks using the system I feel a few more staff on trains/at stations has more value then folks in the back rooms. Further I don't equate the 2nd person on the train as such a big cost AND don't think with the TAs current mind set that the 2nd person will be put in their own train & therefore result in more frequent service (re: tph input in this thread). So what do you get for OPTO ... more folks watching TV screen in the back room and less folks providing SERVICE to the customer.
[The problem with outside contractors is that too often they just charge the City inflated prices and provide substandard work. Still, I can see them being effective in certain areas.]
This has been true in the past, but you also have a lot of folks in the back room doing busy work vs. hiring an expert in the field ONLY when you have a specific project & writing up a good contract ... i.e. why can't they learn how to do this from the private industry. Those folks can't afford to make evey project a pork barrel !
[From what I've read here, the TA's entire attitude towards scheduling is fairly bizarre ... I think is a bureaucracy that cares a lot more about butt covering than service.]
Yes, they seem to have lost sight of the fundamental mission, i.e. move lots of folks safetly & fast from A to B. I must admit that it seems that they are doing some good things in the shops, i.e. taking out redundant parts to lengthen MTBF ... also the beautification of stations is very nice. i.e. I think it makes the subway trip more pleasent for folks (can we afford it, i.e. should that money be going some where else, well that another issue).
Josh, I've enjoyed our exchange, I hope some of the other have too !
Mr t__:^)
[Well, I lump these two togather, i.e. with the volume of folks using the system I feel a few more staff on trains/at stations has more value then folks in the back rooms. Further I don't equate the 2nd person on the train as such a big cost AND don't think with the TAs current mind set that the 2nd person will be put in their own train & therefore result in more frequent service (re: tph input in this thread). So what do you get for OPTO ... more folks watching TV screen in the back room and less folks providing SERVICE to the customer.]
Well, I think if you manage things badly it doen't really matter what you do. But I think the only valid way to approach the issue is to come up with what you consider the best way to run things, and compromise from there. Othewrise you just end up with the bureaucratic status quo.
[This has been true in the past, but you also have a lot of folks in the back room doing busy work vs. hiring an expert in the field ONLY when you have a specific project & writing up a good contract ... i.e. why can't they learn how to do this from the private industry. Those folks can't afford to make evey project a pork barrel!]
Unfortunately it seems that there hands are tied. Someone working at a private company can ignore vendors that don't have a good track record, then bid a few of the better ones against one another. It happens every day, with infinite variations, and more or less successful results; but there's rarely pressure to assign the contract to somebody's uncle or a campaign contributor or a contractor that you know has ripped you off in the past. And since you the executive own a piece of the company, are earning a competitive wage, and are competing for higher positions on the basis of your performance, there's little incentive to accept kickback offers and such. Compare that to the situation at a public agency where executies are underpaid by comparision to private industry, don't receive stock options and performance linked bonuses, and know that the top positions will be filled by political hacks receiving patronage appointments.
[Yes, they seem to have lost sight of the fundamental mission, i.e. move lots of folks safetly & fast from A to B. I must admit that it seems that they are doing some good things in the shops, i.e. taking out redundant parts to lengthen MTBF ... also the beautification of stations is very nice. i.e. I think it makes the subway trip more pleasent for folks (can we afford it, i.e. should that money be going some where else, well that another issue).
Josh, I've enjoyed our exchange, I hope some of the other have too !]
:-)
[Josh, based on what do you make this claim? What are your qualifications and or credentials? Anyone can throw idiotic statements around but until you can back them up, it's just so much crap.]
You can argue about details, but the gist of it is that the system should be OPTO and have unattended station operation in all but the most heavily used locations.
(You can argue about details, but the gist of it is that the system should be OPTO and have unattended station operation in all but the most heavily used locations).
I'll go with you on OPTO, but not on unattended station operation. Vandalism, fare beating and fear of violence are real issues. No private company would offer the equivalent of an unattended station.
The way to save money on stations is to close them at night, and run buses instead, in all but the most heavily used locations, as we have discussed. This would reduce, rather than increase, crime and vandalism of "Owl" bus stops could be located in locations with 24 hour activities and empty stations could be secured and remotely monitored.
Don't use electronic monitoring as a way to protect unstaffed station. You'd need camera's everywhere and people watching them to distinguish passengers from intruders, and a way to respond fast enough to stop a victimization. A closed, dark station could be monitored by sensors that detect any light or movement. Catching vandals sooner or later is acceptable. Stopping the last rape in a sequence of 20 is not.
I agree with you on this, Larry. OPTO, but not unmanned stations.
Conductors perform tasks -- opening and closing the doors, making the announcements -- that can be automated or handed over to the train operator. We have OPTO in Chicago, with the train operator opening and closing the doors and with a new automated announcing system. There was some delay at first, because the platforms are often on the opposite side from the cab. But with some improvements to the trains and with operator experience, the time lapse between the operator closing the doors and starting the train into motion has become almost imperceptible. It's true that a recording can't answer passenger questions, but how often DO people ask questions of the conductor?
On the other hand, the presence of live personnel in every station is very useful. People DO ask questions of station agents; after all, you need to know which train to get on BEFORE you get on the train. And customer service phones in the stations wouldn't cut the mustard; a person on the other end of a phone can't point out a route on a map, or show exactly how a Transit Card is inserted into the turnstile. When CTA completely automated fare collection, it didn't get rid of its station agents, it liberated them from the booths and allowed -- no, expected -- them to move about the station. I personally feel that the system is more user friendly when the station agent is not cooped up in a little booth that he can't leave for security reasons (security of the TA's money, not his/her own security).
[On the other hand, the presence of live personnel in every station is very useful. People DO ask questions of station agents; after all, you need to know which train to get on BEFORE you get on the train. And customer service phones in the stations wouldn't cut the mustard; a person on the other end of a phone can't point out a route on a map, or show exactly how a Transit Card is inserted into the turnstile. When CTA completely automated fare collection, it didn't get rid of its station agents, it liberated them from the booths and allowed -- no, expected -- them to move about the station. I personally feel that the system is more user friendly when the station agent is not cooped up in a little booth that he can't leave for security reasons (security of the TA's money, not his/her own security).]
PATH has customer service phones, and they're just fine. They're located right at the turnstyles, and I've seen people use them to get buzzed in when the machine ate their money. Not only that, customer service phones can be multilingual, a boon to tourists and just about everybody--because many of the questions people ask of token clerks seem to be asked by people who don't know English, and the general result is consternation.
In any case, people are just as likely to ask other passengers a question as a token clerk. IMO providing someone just to answer an occasional question rather than doing it from a central location is a rather massively expensive luxury.
[In any case, people are just as likely to ask other passengers a question as a token clerk. IMO providing someone just to answer an occasional question rather than doing it from a central location
is a rather massively expensive luxury.]
This is true, BUT if enough folks use the line that person can draw in more folks who would have otherwise have used a car. It like driving on NY parkways ... if you don't know where you're going the signs won't help, i.e. turn here for Mid-Twn Tunnel, but how do I go South ?
Mr t__:^)
[This is true, BUT if enough folks use the line that person can draw in more folks who would have otherwise have used a car. It like driving on NY parkways ... if you don't know where you're going the signs won't help, i.e. turn here for Mid-Twn Tunnel, but how do I go South ?]
I think there are some ways we could make the process easier. For example, a computerized information kiosk could allow you to select your destination, then give you a printout of directions for getting there, in whatever language you want. And while I'd rate the current signage as very good, I think more could be done to keep people from getting lost in twisty stations. I know I lose my bearings sometimes in strange stations, and I'm not exactly a tourist.
Suppose each pillar had a "roadside sign" along these lines:
---------------------------------------------------
! F Uptown
> F Downtown
< 1, 2, 3 Uptown and Downtown (1 block)
^ 14th St and 6th Ave SW, NW Exit
> 14th St and 6th Ave NE Exit
< 14th St and 7th Ave Exit (1 block)
< West East >
----------------------------------------------------
Nicely color coded, of course, with standard symbols for escalators, stairs, elevators and such. You could never become disoriented.
[I'll go with you on OPTO, but not on unattended station operation. Vandalism, fare beating and fear of violence are real issues. No
private company would offer the equivalent of an unattended station.]
But what about PATH?
PATH is a tiny system that mostly serves suburban commuters. Thanks to a large amount of money sucked out of NYC, it has plenty available to repair any vandalism, and has little history of it. There are fewer, more heavily used stations. And is PATH open in the middle of the night?
Not comparable.
PATCO running from South Jersey into Phily has no token booths, or station attendants. Its a small, 1 line system. I haven;t heard of to much (if any) vandelism !!
It is open in the middle of the night.
Okay, go 100% OPTO - I'll give it to you. There are 3,000 conductors. Get rid of them all. Now you are down to 35,000 employees. Where do you cut the other 16,000 jobs from?
Rim Shot ... a few Attendants & all the Conductors ain't going to save the big bucks, it's just going to eliminate the SERVICE.
Mr t__:^)
[Okay, go 100% OPTO - I'll give it to you. There are 3,000 conductors. Get rid of them all. Now you are down to 35,000 employees. Where do you cut the other 16,000 jobs from?]
LOL, you've answered your own question--from the other 35,000 employees.
Once again, you obviously need not be taken seriously. That mistake will not be made again.
[Once again, you obviously need not be taken seriously. That mistake will not be made again.]
Ah.
Agreed
[I'll go with you on OPTO, but not on unattended station operation. Vandalism, fare beating and fear of violence are real issues. No private company would offer the equivalent of an unattended station.
The way to save money on stations is to close them at night, and run buses instead, in all but the most heavily used locations, as we have discussed. This would reduce, rather than increase, crime and vandalism of "Owl" bus stops could be located in locations with 24 hour activities and empty stations could be secured and remotely monitored.
Don't use electronic monitoring as a way to protect unstaffed station. You'd need camera's everywhere and people watching them to distinguish passengers from intruders, and a way to respond fast enough to stop a victimization. A closed, dark station could be monitored by sensors that detect any light or movement. Catching vandals sooner or later is acceptable. Stopping the last rape in a sequence of 20 is not.]
I agree with you about night service, but not about unattended station operation. It works fine in PATH. It works fine on the uptown side of the Seventh Avenue el, and has for as many years as I can remember.
The security provided by token clerks is I think much overrated. They can't see most of a station, and criminals and vandals are likely to choose isolated areas to do mischief rather than doing it in front of someone with access to a phone. It seems to me that we could provide much more effective security using spot cameras with dedicated VCR's. While a camera can't pick up every incident, they can record it, and that's a great way of disuading vandalism and muggings. The cameras would be supplemented by Bratton-style allocation of a relatively few stations agents and police officers to particularly dangerous locations.
[The security provided by token clerks is I think much overrated. They can't see most of a station, and criminals and vandals are likely to choose isolated areas to do mischief rather than doing it in front of someone with access to a phone. It seems to me that we could provide much more effective security using spot cameras with dedicated VCR's. While a camera can't pick up every incident, they can record it, and that's a great way of disuading vandalism and muggings. The cameras would be supplemented by Bratton-style allocation of a relatively few stations agents and police officers to particularly dangerous location]
Excellent points. I'd just like to add two things:
1. In addition to cameras and roving patrols, stations (and, of course, all cars) should be equipped with emergency call buttons, similar to those you'll see on PATH cars. Buttons in stations would be used to summon the police or roving security patrols.
2. The TA should be required to publicize station-by-station crime statistics. Simply reporting raw numbers won't be enough, as passenger volumes vary so widely between stations. One alternative would be to use the crime numbers and passenger volume to compute a crime rate for each station. Rates then would be converted to numerical rankings and posted in each station. For instance, people entering a particular station would see posters stating that the station ranks 359 out of 465 in terms of violent crimes. This sort of publicity would serve two good purposes: some riders would be able to vary their station choices in order to avoid the more dangerous ones, and the communities around dangerous stations might demand better policing.
[1. In addition to cameras and roving patrols, stations (and, of course, all cars) should be equipped with emergency call buttons, similar to those you'll see on PATH cars. Buttons in stations would be used to summon the police or roving security patrols.
2. The TA should be required to publicize station-by-station crime statistics. Simply reporting raw numbers won't be enough, as passenger volumes vary so widely between stations. One alternative would be to use the crime numbers and passenger volume to compute a crime rate for each station. Rates then would be converted to numerical rankings and posted in each station. For instance, people entering a particular station would see posters stating that the station ranks 359 out of 465 in terms of violent crimes. This sort of publicity would serve two good purposes: some riders would be able to vary their station choices in order to avoid the more dangerous ones, and the communities around dangerous stations might demand better policing.]
I'd say you're right in both cases. My guess is that the MTA wouldn't be willing to post crime statistics, though, for fear of scaring people off.
Why should NYCT publish crime statistics by station? NYCT has NOT ONE POLICE OFFICER on the payroll! Patroling the subway system is the responsibility of the New York Police Department's Transit Bureau. If statistics are to be published, NYPD is the agency that should do it.
David
[Why should NYCT publish crime statistics by station? NYCT has NOT ONE POLICE OFFICER on the payroll! Patroling the subway system is the responsibility of the New York Police Department's Transit Bureau. If statistics are to be published, NYPD is the agency that should do it.]
If the NYPD can come up with the statistics, then by all means they should be responsible for publishing them. What matters is that *someone* does it.
I dont know about josh but i was told personely by the former transit president dont worry about transit firing you they are too stupid If they are too stupid then they dont do anything.
Which former transit president did you talk to? What were the circumstances surrounding the meeeting? It seems that some people feel that they can make any otrageous claim and then expect it to be taken at face value!!! I get the feeling that this too is more mindless crap.......
Now now ... remember you're in mngt. and always have to set an example for the rest of us in deeds & WORDS ;-) Opps, I'm in mngt. too, but I was a Teamsters once, so folks understand when EYE revert.
Management or not, I stand by what I said. If you are going to make an outrageous charge or an irresponsible statement, I will not accept it at face value and neither should anyone else on this venue. If you can not back up your claim or statement - don't make it. There are some here who might actually believe an idiotic statement like the one I took exception too.
the same guy that put them there to bebin with. Dave Gunn. If you remember we spoke several months ago when my sign name was robert johnson. i will discuss this with you by email since i am leaving in 5 minutes for several days. Ask rci herschkowitz about me if you want confirmation. ask him if the guy with the credit cards knew dave gunn
I know they have slowed the subway down, but what to you think is the fastest run on the system today? The 59th Street tunnel on the N and R has to be one of the sickest things ever!!! The speed is insane!!! The IRT's Lexington line has a great run, too.
Train Buff Headquarters
It's funny to look at the expressions on other people's faces, especially the elderly. Their eyes became wide open as oppose to half-closed. People start to look around wondering if the next stop is the Moon. I literally go up & down on my seat. I haven't been on a 'fast' one for awhile since the MTA seemingly has slowed them down on most trains. During off-peak hours the Lexington line from Brooklyn Bridge to Union Sq runs pretty fast at times too. You have to hold your ground when especially it runs by the Spring St station (was it ever an express station? There appears to be an extra roadbed in between the express tracks)
Other posters mentioned the Central Park West run on the A. I will check it out the next time I have a reason to go to Upper Manhattan.
Spring St. was a local stop from Day One. It appears to have had a pocket track between the express tracks at one time, or at least provosion for one. There is no track there now.
The CPW express run was second to none back in the good old days when the R-10s dominated the A line. Even when the slant R-40s took over on the A in 1977, it was still a thrill. It has since lost some of its glitter, what with trains having been slowed down.
I have an early postcard of Spring Street showing the provision for a pocket track - although it's impossible to be 100% certain from the angle, there does not appear to be any rail there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[It's funny to look at the expressions on other people's faces, especially the elderly. Their eyes became wide open as oppose to half-closed. People start to look around wondering if the next stop is the Moon. I literally go up & down on my seat. I haven't been on a 'fast' one for awhile since the MTA seemingly has slowed them down on most trains.]
A lot of lines are now excruciatingly slow. I road out to Jamaica on the Z the other day, and the train just crawled--the whole trip took 45 minutes, while coming back about the same distance on a semi-express E took just 22.
Maybe the J in front forgot it was Skip-Stop time.
[Maybe the J in front forgot it was Skip-Stop time.]
Didn't see another train the whole time.
[It's funny to look at the expressions on other people's faces, especially the elderly. Their eyes became wide open as oppose to half-closed. People start to look around wondering if the next stop is the Moon. I literally go up & down on my seat. I haven't been on a 'fast' one for awhile since the MTA seemingly has slowed them down on most trains.]
A lot of lines are now excruciatingly slow. I rode out to Jamaica on the Z the other day, and the train just crawled--the whole trip took 45 minutes, while coming back about the same distance on a semi-express E took just 22.
04/24/2000
For all you train buffs out there who are riding this train and an R-32 in being used, just peer through the space in the motormans cab door hinge and you should see the speedometer. You can check out how fast you're going. This doesn't work on the cab doors on the R-40 and 42's, different type hinge.
Bill Newkirk
Works on R-38s too. You can kinda see the R-46 one through some of the weird filter things if you look at the correct angle. The R-62 one is in plain sight in the half-length cab. Just look in the window. A good feature for future subway cars would be speed indicators inside the car. How much more money could it cost to stick a 2 digit led sign in a car, anyway?
The MTA doesn't want a lawsuit with concrete evidence that it has gone over the NY State speed limit for subway cars... and don't want people to brag about which line went faster than the other on some message board! ..... Oops spoke too late!
The timers and axle counting things take care of that. Though the TA could at least provide a one-digit speedometer for the R-68s.
Yeah, those two-digit speedometers are overkill.:-)
I still wish the R-10s had had speedometers.....
Although its not part of the subway system the fastest underground run is the LIRR's underground stretch between Jamaica and E.NY. One thing I try to do on that stretch is to find the old Woodhaven Station in the dark, and I seldom can!
Isn't the LIRR East River tunnels pretty fast too?
Very fast on an electric, kinda slow on a Bilevel.
It's easier finding Woodhaven going eastbound than it is westbound. Going eastbound, you'll feel the jog of a switch; that's the old turnout to Ozone Park, which is still there (the westbound switch has been uprooted). Woodhaven station, dimly lit, is about five seconds past the switch.
wayne
Try a downtown Broadway / 7th Ave IRT Express from 96th St to Chambers ST. You won't be disappointed.
--Mark
[Try a downtown Broadway / 7th Ave IRT Express from 96th St to Chambers ST. You won't be disappointed.]
Made particularly thrilling by the fact that the tracks don't seem to have been aligned since 1901.
I find it interesting that the older, simpler lines tend to be the fastest. Makes me wonder if all that complicated routing and switching makes sense.
That's exactly why the IRT lines are overcrowded. They need to bring back the Broadway express service. Make some more stations on the 6th & 8th Ave lines local, and proceed with the long-overdue Second Ave project!
No more local stops!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Any more and you can't even call them "Express" or "Local". What about the poor upper Manhattanites going to Brooklyn? It's already annoying to see E and A trains run side by side from 42st to Canal, sometimes the E gets there faster. That's not supposed to happen! Queens bound E riders would refer to the outer tracks as the express ones!
Those extra "express" stops on those 2 lines slow everything down. It seems there are those "express" stops for the sake of transfers to the other lines. But don't worry too much over this. There are other projects where the money can be put into better use than this.
The IND was purposely designed with very few local-only stations south of 59th St. It was an attempt to induce local riders to stay on their trains through their final destinations without going through the time-honored ritual of changing to an express. At the same time, stations are fewer and farther between on the IND in midtown Manhattan than on the IRT and BMT. For example, there is no stop at 28th St. on either IND trunk line while on the BMT Broadway line and both IRT trunk lines, there is.
Of course, it's quite possible that an E train of R-32s would get the best of an A train of R-44s.
The R-44 can make good speed, regardless of your bias against newer equipment.
I think the original IND idea was good -- lots of stops in the central business district, with express trains serving the outer city and local trains serving the inner city. I think the place to eliminate express stops is outside the central business district, not in it.
On the A in Brooklyn, Nostrand and Utica. Run more C trains, or the E, as a local. On Queens Blvd, have expresses bypass Roosevelt Ave during peak periods. On the F, if we ever get enough trains to have a local from Church and an express to Stillwell, have the express bypass 7th Avenue. On the Brighton, someday the express should go to Stillwell while the local stops at Kings Highway.
With Roosevelt such a major interchange, I think making it a local stop only would be a disaster !!!
Imagine having less than 50% of the trains stopping there? (there are more E/F trains than G/R trains)
Actually the R44s make great speed, though they seem to move slower for some reason. I was surprised when I rode in the cab of one today (the T/O 'accidentally' left the door open so I could step in and take pictures of the Rockaway Line and R-142s) We went 50 mph after the North Channel Bridge.
[The IND was purposely designed with very few local-only stations south of 59th St. It was an attempt to induce local riders to stay on their trains through their final destinations without going through the time-honored ritual of changing to an express.]
Well, it worked, and 60 years later it's still inconveniencing people!
Seems to me 72nd or 86th should be an express stop, and there should be a local stop at 66th to serve Lincoln Center. The E spur should be extended downtown and they should eliminate some of those express stops (although I don't know how, given the bizarre connections there). Don't know what you could do about that clumsiness at 8th Street, but maybe it won't matter once Queens riders have access to the Broadway BMT express again.
Running the line up the west side of Central Park -- already zoned residential in 1930 -- meant the amount of traffic at each station would always be limited between 59th and 110th St.
And back in 1930 Lincoln Square was nothing to write home about. It was mainly a tennament area that was the norther extension of the Hell's Kitchen area further south on Ninth Ave., whose only link to the culture of Lincoln Center came just before it wasw torn down, when it was used for exterior shots for the film version of Leonard Bernstein's "West Side Story." There wasn't much of a call for a station six blocks north of the 59th St. express stop back then.
04/27/2000
[And back in 1930 Lincoln Square was nothing to write home about. It was mainly a tennament area that was the norther extension of the Hell's Kitchen area further south on Ninth Ave., whose only link to the culture of Lincoln Center came just before it wasw torn down, when it was used for exterior shots for the film version of Leonard Bernstein's "West Side Story." ]
I didn't know that, which came first? They both were around at the same time.
Bill Newkirk
West Side Story came out in 1961, which would mean exterior shots would have been done earlier. Lincoln Center was completed in stages, no pun intended, with Philharmonic (now Avery Fisher) Hall opening first in 1962, bad acoustics and all. The Met opened in 1966, and the NY State Theater sometime in between.
I heard a story once which I'm sure has happened more than once. A young lady was on her way to Lincoln Center with a group of friends. At Times Square, they boarded a northbound 1 train, but didn't get off in time at 66th St. They got off at 72nd St. and changed to the downtown platform - and boarded an express by mistake. Oops! They wound up right back where they started at Times Square. I still remember her comment: "Nobody told us it was an express". The same thing almost happened to my mother and sister once. They went to Lincoln Center to see Swan Lake, and I told them they needed to take a 1 train from Times Square to 66th St. When they returned home, I found out my mother almost boarded an express, asking, "Is this a 1 train?" Luckily, someone told her it wasn't. I may not have told them to take the train which pulls in on the outside track, not the inside track, at Times Square.
For that matter, the line shouldn't have been run along CPW in the first place but further west. Don't know what they were thinking (actually, do know what they were thinking--destroy the private transit companies).
It would be pretty hard to make any express stops along 6th and 8th Avenues local only since many of them are in Midtown's central business district or connect to regional transportation hubs like Port Authority and Penn Station.
It's a stretch, but 14th Street/8th Avenue could be made local without too much damage; 14th Street/6th Avenue, despite its connection to the 'L' is a local stop. West 4th Street has to remain express because of its numerous connections. Canal Street could conceivably be made local; that's not a big focus of travel and the two Chambers Street station are linked together, negating any need for a downtown 'A' or 'C' passenger to switch at Canal for the 'E' to go to the Trade Center.
Why Tremont Avenue is an express stop, but not 161st Street (which was built AFTER the IRT and the Stadium) isn't, is beyond me. Union Turnpike, 7th Avenue/9th Street and 18th Avenue/McDonald also seem unnecessary as express stops.
Some express stops that seem questionable today (Nostrand, Utica) made sense when they were planned because of planned connections to other lines that, unfortunately, were never built.
Why Tremont Avenue is an express stop, but not 161st Street (which was built AFTER the IRT and the Stadium) isn't, is beyond me.
It was interesting that when the IND Concourse Line was planned, both the 155th St / 8th Ave station (where the Polo Grounds was) AND the 161st St station (where Yankee Stadium is) were LOCAL stops, not express stops. I never understood that. The 155th St stop had a huge mezzanine to handle the crowds, but you'd think with the volume of people needed to transport to and from games, usually in a short period of time, that a station with higher people throughput than just a local stop would have been planned.
18th Avenue/McDonald also seem unnecessary as express stops.
18th Ave is still kind of a shopping area around that station.
--Mark
I am the grandson of one of the designers of the Concourse IND I can tell you incredible stories about the corruption that went on at the time. If interested E-Mail me.
Peace,
ANDEE
[I am the grandson of one of the designers of the Concourse IND I can tell you incredible stories about the corruption that went on at the time. If interested E-Mail me.]
You should post some of them here! I'm sure everyone would want to hear them.
18thAve/McDonald was a BMT Culver Line, before it became a IND Station, it was put there for even spacing like Kings Hwy, or Bay Pkwy and 62nd on the West End. Kings Hwy, Newkirk and Church on the Brighton etc.
Here, here! I'll second that.
e-mailed you.
(I must say, you have my attention :) )
--Mark
With 3 tracks, this made some more sense. Since a 3 track line only runs express service during rush hours, the fact that 161 St. and 155 St. were local really only impacted on the people who lived in the area and commuted to work. During game times a both Yankee Stadium and the Polo Grounds, express service usually didn't run. 155 St. was only a short distance from the 155th/Amsterdam stop on the A, and 161 St. and River Avenue was next to Yankee Stadium (which lessened the number of people who would live within walking distance of it). The fact that 161 St. is now a major x-fer point with the IRT #4 was probably ignored, as the original IND planners intended to run that line out of business with the new Concourse line, eventually demolishing the el.
Amd when the line was built, there was no such thing as night games and no lights at either stadium. Fans returning to lower Manhattan after the games ended at around 4 or 5 p.m. would be going against the rush hour riders headed out of the midtown area.
[It would be pretty hard to make any express stops along 6th and 8th Avenues local only since many of them are in Midtown's central business district or connect to regional transportation hubs like Port Authority and Penn Station.
It's a stretch, but 14th Street/8th Avenue could be made local without too much damage; 14th Street/6th Avenue, despite its connection to the 'L' is a local stop. West 4th Street has to remain express because of its numerous connections. Canal Street could conceivably be made local; that's not a big focus of travel and the two Chambers Street station are linked together, negating any need for a downtown 'A' or 'C' passenger to switch at Canal for the 'E' to go to the Trade Center.
Why Tremont Avenue is an express stop, but not 161st Street (which was built AFTER the IRT and the Stadium) isn't, is beyond me. Union Turnpike, 7th Avenue/9th Street and 18th Avenue/McDonald also seem unnecessary as express stops.
Some express stops that seem questionable today (Nostrand, Utica) made sense when they were planned because of planned connections to other lines that, unfortunately, were never built.]
I think 14th Street should stay an express because of the connection to the L. The interchange at 8th Street, while it benefits me personally (it's my stop), is in an unfortunate location.
Canal shouldn't have an express stop--Chambers should, in keeping with the other lower manhattan lines--but I assume it's that way because there wasn't enough room to put one in.
Leave the platforms, put up signs that say (ALL TRAINS ON OPPOSITE TRACK). For the people who don't read, maybe put up fences along the express track.
Supposedly, the reason for so few local stops below 59th St. on the
8th Ave. line was to discourage passengers from transferring from the local to the express. This was probably done to speed up running times
since local-to-express transfers cause extended dwell times at stations.
Whether this reasoning holds up today is questionable. More express stops only slow down running time. I think the 14th St. and Canal St. stops could be converted to local stops. Walling off the express side or just posting a sign could accomplish that without destroying the
platforms. It's possible that people in the Village would oppose the
conversion since they may construe it as a reduction in service.
I don't think that there would be much opposition to the Canal St.
conversion however since that stop isn't highly patronized.
If you didn't fence off the express tracks, express trains would have to slow down and honk their horns as they passed by. Not that it would make all that much difference with the way trains have been slowed down...
This subject of fences reminds me of the loose chain link fence used on the lower level at 42nd St. when the northern end was used as an underpass.
I did it today on my lunch break. 20 minutes from 110-WallSt on a Redbird... TS look like it is getting a rehab....... 7/Bway Express is ride.....
3TM
Fastest run is Rockaways, if you get one of the two T/Os who frequently hit 50. I know one operates one of the Rock Park A's. You'd swear you were on an LIRR M-1 or something.
The 60yh St Tube on the N/r from Queens to Manhattan is definitely the place where you can get a train to go the fastest. Most N trains ( and I assume Rs also) can regularly break 55mph and occasionally top over 60.
From what I hear, they quickly lose speed going uphill.
Well I think it's mainly the R68 "Hippo" trains that have trouble going up the steep grade. The slant R40s and R32's are able to get better speed in the 60th street tube, they can handle the grade and beat the signals to get the most speed. Most R68's are harder to "control" and do moan quite a bit going uphill out of the tube, especially Queensbound.
It's all of them. I've seen R-32s go from the mid-50s to a wheezing 19 mph coming into Queens Plaza.
David
I always wondered how the BMT standards managed that upgrade, if the 14th St. tunnel was any indication.
Does that mean that if a train had to stop in the lowest section of the tunnel for any reason, it couldn't climb back out?
Bill
That's when you'd hear the conductor announce, "OK, everybody out and push!":-)
I'm sure that if a train were to come to a stop at the lowest point of a river tunnel, it would be able to climb up the grade, albeit very slowly. And, as I understand, field shunting, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with it.
The entire "A" express on an R44 travelling southbound from 125 St. until B. 67 St., Rockaway. The sections that stand out notably are between 59 St and 42 St, Bway-Nassau and High St., Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts and Utica Ave., and across the Jamaica Bay.
Hate to bother you again, but I forgot to ask. I'm going on the new trolley run this week. What is the fare, on way, for the whole ride. I'm disabled so I assume it will be less for me, but what is the full fare. Thanks in advance to anyone who responds:)
Train Buff Headquarters
Buck and a half, according to a post this past week. I haven't ridden myself so I don't know from experience.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The fare is $1.50 for 90 minutes of riding. You buy a ticket and stamp it, it's valid until the time stamped on the ticket. You can buy tickets from vending machines at all of the stations. I don't know if there's a discount for disabled/senior citizens, but the cars appear to be wheelchair accessible.
Wayne
04/23/2000
[but the cars appear to be wheelchair accessible.]
They have to be, its the law (A.D.A.) Also the cars are low floor so no special platforms for wheelchairs like Baltimore.
Bill Newkirk
There is a picture on the cover of the book "Under the Sidewalks of New York" that shows what looks like an R68 at Times Square, on the N.
But the front sign of this N train is in orange, not yellow.
Was the N orange sometime in the past?
Was the letter "N" black or white?
The "N" was always Broadway Gold, from Day One, Nov. 26, 1967. I have seen an Orange "N" sign (with white letter) in some Slant R40s, but never in an R68.
Wayne
The letter N was white with an orange background. Perhaps it is an R44 or R46 train, the dimly lit picture makes it hard to tell, the book is from 1979 so it probably is not an R68. Anybody who has seen the book "Under the Sidewalks of New York" by Brian J. Cudahy will see this picture on the cover.
The N definately looks orange. It's hard to tell exactly where this picture is in Times Square, but looking at it closer it appears the picture is of the last car of an N train on the express track, Brooklyn bound. Perhaps it is just a wrong sign, that is if R44's were able to display N in Orange. Did the N run express on the broadway line and use the bridge tracks in 1979 when the book was printed?
The car in question on the jacket of the original edition of Under the Sidewalks of New York is an R-46 at Times Square; I'm going to say it's on the northbound local track. In 1979, N trains used the Manhattan Bridge 24/7 and ran express in Manhattan except during rush hours, when they ran local to Coney Island in the morning, and local to Continental Ave. in the afternoon. I took an N from 34th St. to 57th St. during the afternoon rush on June 1, 1979, and it ran local. On the return trip to 34th St., it ran express.
The orginal picture on the book jacket was taken around late 1976 when the N service was extended to Continental Avenue. This was in the P.M. Rush Hour when N Service operated local in Manhattan Northbound Only and the service operated local Southbound Only during the A.M. Rush Hour. This was done to accomadte the passengers going to and from Queens which formally had EE Service which operated local. The book was written sometime before the service change because, If you read on of the chapters it talks about how the author rode with a Motorman on the N during Rush Hour and the train terminating at 57 Street/7 Avenue.
Yes, that's correct. I do remember that when the N was running express in Manhattan and continuing onto Continental Ave., it skipped 49th St. and switched over south of 57th St.
I'd just like to share something. My friend is always teasing me about the "Subway" thing. He thinks I'm nuts, and then I'm the only person who passionatly loves trains. When I showed him this site, he shut up real quick. Bottom line. If you don't get it the first time, you can never be a train buff. The first time I rode a train, I was hooked. If you don't feel it the first time your ride, just forget it. Thanks to David Pirmann and the rest of you out there. I love this site!
Train Buff Headquarters
Forgive me if this was ever posted before. We all know that the Broadway line used to be a BMT line (or maybe it still is). But were there ever reconstruction on any segment on the BMT to make the turns more gradual to accomodate the longer R68 & R46 cars? Other BMT lines (J,M,Z, ∓ L) have very sharp turns on parts of their lines so why this isn't so on the Broadway line if it was a BMT?
Another is, when I look at a map of downtown Manhattan, I've noticed that the segment between Cortlandt St & City Hall appears to run under a cemetary!! And just south of Rector St, it appears to run thorough building foundations!
When the R-46s were introduced, an R-1/9 was split into two pieces and equipped with an "extender" in the middle. This train went traveling around many of the BMT and IND lines to test tunnel clearances. Where the clearance was too tight, areas of these tunnels were marked and then shaved away to provide the needed clearance. It wasn't too bad because the BMT was designed to handle 67 foot steel cars (the AB Standards) and the IND was built, generally speaking, to have gentler curves that could support a longer car.
The Broadway / Jamaica El can't support the lomger cars because it would require rebuilding portions of the El, which is to expensive to do. The sharp curves at Crescent Street pose a sideswiping hazard.
--Mark
It was done for the R44 not the R46, which came later. But you knew that.
The Broadway line in Manhattan which the N and R lines run on is still a BMT line in my book. Always has been.
In my book, too, Steve. But on't let the TA hear you. Another change might be in the offing. They have changed the number of my train to a letter, re-routed it from the Mann B and now are thinking of sending it to South Ferry, changed its marking from orange to yellow, and God knows what else. We have to get a Sea Beach fan in the TA as head honcho.
IT WAS NEVER ORANGE!!!
And what are you talking about making it head to South Ferry? It already does.
Since when? It didmn't go to South Ferry last summer and I rode the Sea Beach at least ten times.
It goes to Whitehall St. (secondary name South Ferry). And that is the only South Ferry station it can go to.
Now as far as the N terminating there, that would be a major comedown for (what was once) the BMT's classiest and fastest line!
Gerry
Well, some rush hour N trains did in fact terminate there during the late 70s. They essentially mimicked the discontinued EE service.
Since when? It didn't' go to South Ferry last summer and I rode the Sea Beach at least ten times.
Whitehall St. is in the immediate vicinity of South Ferry. I can't remember if the station is so marked today.
It's called Whitehall Street - South Ferry
Fred, according to the first subway map to show lines in their individual colours, which is the one issued November 1967, the "N" is a deep shade of gold, such as would pass for a shade of orange-yellow, but it was never orange, like the "D", the old "JJ", etc. or the current 6th Avenue line.
It's possible that the orange "N" signs on the R40s are misprints and that the R46 sign in the book was actually gold, but for some reason the light behind it made it appear orange.
Wayne
Yeah, but what about the comment in the epilougue "A ride on the Sea Beach", "Outside the cab he checked the head end sign; a white and orange N was correctly displayed"
Perhaps the author was getting his colors mixed up? The white and orange N on the R46 on the cover looks pretty convincing. I wish I had a scanner so I could post a picture of it here.
If these are errors in the book, they should be corrected, even though it may be a small, minor detail to most.
That material was only in the original edition. The "A Ride on the Sea Beach" portion in the epilogue disappeared from the second edition, as did the movie section. I guess that's one way to correct an oversight, although I find it a bit ironic that Cudahy mentioned numerous corrections in the second edition. He didn't say anything about deleting anything.
"A Ride on the Sea Beach"? What was that? I'm clueless. Was it a movie, a vignette? What? Fill me in. I never heard of it and want to know all about it. Hello out there.
"A ride on the Sea Beach" is an epilougue in the book "Under the Sidewalks of New York" by Brain Cudahy.
The original edition of Under the Sidewalks of New York included Brian Cudahy's account of a trip he took on an N train from Coney Island to 57th St. and back while riding in the cab with a motorman. And this was on a train of R-32s! He selected the Sea Beach line because of its historical significance; it along with the 4th Ave. line were the first Dual Contracts lines to be opened on June 22, 1915. The trip took place during the afternoon rush hour, and since the N ran express in Manhattan in both directions, it's safe to say it happened prior to 1976.
I liked one remark the motorman made to Cudahy as they rode along the open cut of the Sea Beach: "You're lucky; we got a good fast train today". He also said that while the train he was to take was marked "N-Broadway Express", to him it was the Sea Beach Express. There is also mention that at one time, motormen had to make certain that Triplex trains were showing a numeral 4 in the front route curtain and 57th St. Manhattan (Times Square prior to 1957) in the destination slot. And, of course, red and white marker lights.
Thanks for memories of the real Sea Beach. The fastest route from Manhattan to Coney Island... in my childhood we rode the beloved Dtypes... trust me, more fun than any R32. Pity that it has been reduced to a pokey route via tunnel and Broadway local. Is the management prejudiced against th BMT Broadway route? all services but the N on 6th Ave, and the N now a drag.,much like the R line...I meant to refer to all Coney Island type services...
Mr Bigdirt: I don't have to trust you because you're preaching to the choir. Your piece could have been written by me. Those "D" type Triplexes were out of this world. Nothing like them and, of course, the Sea Beach had them. And I also wonder why our favorite train had been given such a crappy route and made a local now. That was for the 4th Ave train, the #2 train now known as the R. I also wonder about the TA. What the hell are they thinking. If I only had the power, I would change things pronto. Maybe in the future the Sea Beach will be restored to what the real Sea Beach is supposed to be. I loved riding the Express when I was a kid and the fact it was a Triplex made it all the more fun.
You can thank, or blame, the Manhattan Bridge fiasco for degrading the N line to what it is now. The R-32s stand out when it comes to the N because it was on that route, on those shiny new cars, that I rode on the subway for the first time on July 21, 1965. The Triplexes were literally in their final days of service on the West End then, and even though we rode on nothing except the BMT for two days, I didn't see any Triplex trains and consequently, never had a chance to experience them.
I must confess that while I've ridden on many N trains through the years, on equipment including R-27/30s, R-32s, slant R-40s, R-42s, R-46s, and R-68s, I've been on the Sea Beach open cut portion a total of four, maybe five times, two of them on a round trip in 1971 which included a rocket ride along 4th Ave. and Broadway. On one occasion, the train I was on ran local along 4th Ave. once we had left the open cut. Ooohhhhh noooooo. On the most recent occasion in 1996 or 1997, I was waiting for a B train at Pacific St., but when an N train of slants pulled in, I thought, what the heck, at least I'll get a decent view and it's been a while since I've ridden through the open cut.
The thing which stands out more than anything else as far as the N is concerned, was the Broadway express run. The R-32s ran effortlessly along that stretch.
"You can thank, or blame, the Manhattan Bridge fiasco for degrading the N line to what it is now."
Not really. Just because a line goes through the tunnel and not the bridge doesn't mean it can't go express up Broadway, at least after Canal. And even if it has to skip a few stations on the local tracks, so be it. Skip/stop trains do it with no incident.
How much hassle is it to redirect the Q line to run express along Manhattan Broadway via the Montague tunnel to 63rd?? That would definitely even up Broadway service to 6th Ave service until they finish the Manhattan Bridge project.
I last rode a Broadway express D to 34th St when there were construction on the north side of the bridge many months ago. It felt so good to ride an express that's on a BMT line in Manhattan.
I'm going to try and get that book if I can. BTW don't show this piece to my buddy Brighton Beach Bob. He'd have a fit knowing that the Sea Beach has that great history and tradition while his train is not mentioned at all.
Sea Beach Fred, I have the original book and read it many times, bought it when it first came out (Razzberry)
Is that book the Hagstrom 5 Boro Atlas?
"In my book" means "as far as I'm concerned". That line to me will always be the BMT Broadway line.
Sorry if I misled you.
I watched a Woody "Money Train" Harrelson movie called "The Cowboy Way" Saturday night on cable. It was sort of a remake of 'Coogan's Bluff' or 'McCloud' where some Texas-cowpokes come to the Big Apple to snare a nutzoid, homocidial maniac.
Anyhow, the reason I'm mentioning this flick here is that it had an incredible action-scene where Harrelson and his partner (Keifer Sutherland) are on horseback, chasing down their bad-guy who's aboard a slant R-40 going over the Manhattan Bridge. The end-car is #4130 and it had extra-handholds welded onto the slant-end superstructure. I assume that grab-irons were added to give the actors the opportunity to move from their horses and ride the anti-climber. As bizarre as that was, it was topped only by the duo entering the end car by pulling the storm door with no problems!!! (holy technical screwups, Batman!).
BTW, the 62nd Street station on the West End line figures promenently in the final 'showdown' (NICE death-by-subway-car for the villian!).
Anyhow, as Hollywood fare goes, it was rather pedestrian, but did have a spectacular subway action-sequence. It's worth renting just for the laughs from the inaccuracies galore.
Doug aka BMTman
P.S. -- interesting how it was another flick with Woody Harrelson that relied on rapid transit for the action scenes...
I have this movie on tape it's a funny movie and I seen it millions of time when it came out on pay-per-view for the first time. My question is that they use the South side tracks to do the scenes but I thought that those tracks were shutdown at that time for reconstruction also the last train (#4310) was marking "B" in YELLOW why did they marked it with Broadway color. Did they did a mistake or they wanted like that for the scene. If you know write to me
>>>, it was topped only by the duo entering the end car by pulling the storm door with no problems!!! (holy technical screwups, Batman!). <<<
The Stallone movie Nighthawks also has a similar screw-up. In one scene, Stallone jumps on to the anti-climber on a departing R-1/9 breaks the stormdoor glass and reaches inside pulls the handle and, voila, opens the storm door.
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, and that was right after Billy Dee Williams tried the storm door while they were still outside the train and hollered, "It's locked!" Duh!! Amazing how the door suddenly opened after Stallone kicked out the window.
Ah, but did you know they used two different cars as the last car of that train in Nighthawks? If you look closely during the platform-level shot as the train leaves "57th St." (Hoyt-Schermerhorn in disguise), note the split storm door window on the last car, and the correct train markings (the train is signed as a B). Same thing when first Williams, then Stallone make their way onto the last car. Initially, the train is still signed up as a B. Then , when Stallone grabs hold of the stirrups and gets ready to kick in the window, the storm door of last car now has a single large window, and the route sign is set to S.
BTW, if you look past Rutger Hauer as he's holding the woman hostage at knifepoint on the platform, you can see the conductor peering out from his position between cars.
Oh, and did you know you can see an undisguised Hoyt-Scherherhorn station sign at one point? You have to advance a videocassette one frame at a time in order to see it, but if you do so at the point where the camera inside the car is portraying Stallone's attempt to pry the doors open, it's there.
>>>Oh, and did you know you can see an undisguised Hoyt-Scherherhorn station sign at one point? You have to advance a videocassette one frame at a time in order to see it, but if you do so at the point where the camera inside the car is portraying Stallone's attempt to pry the doors open, it's there.<<<
I'll have to look for that, thanks.
ANDEE
I'm resonably certain it was the filming of this movie that took the life of a conductor. He looked out of his cab to view the filming and was hit by one of the bridge's support beams.
--Mark
Are you serious??
My god, that's horrible.
I had no idea the MB support beams were that close to the ROW...
Doug aka BMTman
It may have been a signal box, now that I think of it. Regardless, there was some kind of obstruction that the conductor didn't see coming.
--Mark
This is the first I ever heard this too. Are you sure?? My
Lord, that's awful
Peace,
ANDEE
Yes, I'm reasonably certain I read this in the news a few years back.
--Mark
No, it wasn't #4130 (that's an R38 number) - it was my old shovel-nosed friend 4310 and his lovely wife 4311. I loved the way Woody roped the Slant on the bridge, and the bad guy got a ride to Coney Island the hard way.
Love those (very photogenic) Slant R40s!
That brings up a question of mine. In a married pair which one is the "husband" and which one is the "wife". Or because all mechianical objects are a she is it a lesbian couple. That about the Triplex? Was the center unit a child?
I always consider all married pairs of 1959 (R26) vintage or later as consisting of the husband (the even number) and the wife (the odd number). Pre-R26 cars - I refer to them all as "she", much as one would refer to a ship or an aircraft.
R44 and up - that's a whole nother story...
Wayne
As for ships and aircraft being "she" -- that holds true except in Russia!
Are the couplers hermaphroditic or do they have, um.... certain qualities.
Commuter train couplers look like MEN!
04/25/2000
An engineer friend of mine with the LIRR uses the nickname "bulls pr*ck" to describe the M-1 coupler, and that ain't no bull !!
Bill Newkirk
04/25/2000
[That brings up a question of mine. In a married pair which one is the "husband" and which one is the "wife". Or because all mechianical objects are a she is it a lesbian couple. That about the Triplex? Was the center unit a child? ]
On the triplex (D-type), the "A" unit was the husband. the "C" unit was the wife, but the "B" unit was the mother-in-law separating the two.
Bill Newkirk
And with the MS, the "A1" and "B1" units were the children? :o>
wayne
That about the Triplex? Was the center unit a child?
What about the multis? Husband, wife, mistress, and 2 kids???
No, husband, wife, both mothers-in-law, and one kvetching Bubbe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Which one is always saying oi vey?:-)
Bubbe. She's the husband's paternal grandmother, stuck in the middle of the whole shebang.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And where does the Zeyde fit into all this meschugginer madness?
Husband: A
Bubbe: B
Wife: C
M-In-Law(P) A-1
M-In-Law(M) B-1
Wayne :o>
One of 'em has got to be saying oi gevalt.:-)
...........miss piggie .....from royal island .....and kermet the frog !! ......danny boy ........
Right about the numbers (I did the original post late and forgot myself -- got alittle dyslexic there!).
Yes, the slants are very photogenic. Too bad there weren't used in more flicks!
Glad you found this thread! It was directed to you.
Doug aka BMTman
Why, thank you!
I wonder if the extra ironwork they grafted onto #4310's end is still there...that would make it FRA compliant, wouldn't it?
wayne
You can breifly see a Slant on the openong theme of "Night Court"...It shows an "A" train pulling away from a station
Does anyone know why the locomotives having third rail shoes still have the diesel motors running all the time and use them for acceleration ? The noise in GCT can be deafing !!!!
As we used to say in Boston, those engines are WICKED loud -a technical term used by (audio) engineers. I don't smell diesel exhaust around them, so maybe that's just "fan" noise. I dunno.
If you wanna talk LOUD in GCT, you should have been around when New York Central has the P-2 electrics -- or New Haven's EP-5's. They didn't earn the nickname "Jets" for just being fast.....
The diesels aren't running in GCT, although you might think they are from the noise. The big fans cooling all the electronics produce a tremendous amount of noise, and in a relatively confined space like GCT it is significantly amplified.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Those suckers are loud, period. I don't get why GE can't make a nice, quiet, dual mode like Siemens, whoops, I mean EMD, did.
Another thing about the DM/30s - is it me , or do the traction motors come on only if the train is moving faster than a few mph?
Well, the traction motors have to be on for the train to move under power ... not sure what you are referring to here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ick...it was a brain fart, I meant the traction motor *cooling* blowers. It seems right after the loco starts moving, after it gains a bit of speed, you suddenly hear another motor turn on, which I'm assuming is the cooling blower for the motor.
IIRC there are cooling blowers running all the time, but the blower speed increases significantly with just a slight increase in locomotive speed at the bottom end. It's possible that there is a second fan, though, clutching in when the locomotive starts moving - I'm far from an expert on these things.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then why does the noise increase when the accelerate !!!!!!!
Because the electircal componants (transformer, rectifier, inverter, transmorgifier...etc :) heat up more under load, and thus need more cooling. When idle, not all the fans are running. Once moving, all the fans kick on. I haven't encountered a Genesis under diesel power in GCT yet. You can tell when the diesels are running. The fans have a steady thrum, while the diesels go thump-thump-thump.
-Hank
A couple of months ago I was waiting for a northbound "A" train heading home to 207 St at 168 Street and a R40 "Q" train pulls into the station and bypass the station I was wondering were was it going because the "Q" has it's own yard(Coney Island)so does anybody know what did it have to do on the "A" line.
It was there so a SubTalker could see it and write about it :-)
Trains get rerouted from time to time. Perhaps the train was sent up to 207 St to cover a delay in A service, and it was being sent back light. If specific information (date, time) were provided, perhaps somebody who reads this board could look at the Significant Events Report for that day and let us know.
David
This is for you David. I know that it happen in October of last year it was on a Tuesday during the afternoon rush hour like around 3:30 now would you try to investigate with I of the Subtalkers how works in a dispatcher. Thanks
I never said I would investigate this matter. I don't get the reports that I would need to investigate this matter. I suggested that PERHAPS someone who DOES get these reports can investigate.
David
Once, I saw a Q on the Broadway express going downtown during rush hour. Orange signs, not yellow.
It was rerouted to Broadway for some reason.
At least the Q train was back on its home turf, so to speak.
After a steam pipe burst along the 8th Avenue line, sometime in the early 90's I think, spreading asbestos around the 42nd street area, they rerouted the Q train from 207th to Brighton Beach as a regular service since the A was cut off. This was done rather than having the A go down 6th avenue due to switching and capacity constraints.
57th/6th was closed and they ran R38s on the Q.
The A ran from Lefferts/Rock to 14th st and turned at 34th. C was discontinued and the E was rerouted on 6th.
Part of your message is not true. The "C" was indeed runnning during this time from Euclid/Rockaway Park to 34th Street. As a matter of fact the year was 1989. I remember this because of this event shortening the length of the "C" train, it caused the premature retirement of the remaining R10s (they would have eventually been retired a few months later). Also, it was the only time they ran 10 car consists on the "C" in regular service.
The C was discontinued from the North. You're probably right about the south approach. It's been a long time.
http://post.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?action=m&board=1600442784&tid=budgiesandparrakeets&sid=1600442784&mid=1&n=1
Only birds here are RedBirds and YellowBirds. They are, of course, owned by the New York City Transit.
Don't forget Bluebirds, Bluejays, as well as PA yellowbirds (never been on any of those).
And let's not forget some of the birdbrains who post here. 8-)
(couldn't resist)
Peace,
ANDEE
This was missed the last time I posted: when a group of four people (or less) boards at the same time, what happens to the tranfer(s) on a Pay-per-ride Card when the next dip/swipe reveals $0.00 cash? Do those transfers get wiped out, or do they stay on the card (for the two hours or so)? Station Agents please respond. Thank you. T'buff.
I seem to recall an answer by our favorite Station Agent ... maybe it was on a different thread ... anyhow you typically LOOSE the Transfer when the balance went to zero. It's been that way since day one, so I guess it's NOT a bug ?
Mr t__:^)
Once again here is the answer for my favorite employee of a certain Queens bus firm!
Officially (I said officially) you wont lose the transfer.
In real life (the way it rewally is) sometimes you *will* lose the transfer if the balance becomes zero or if you add money while a transfer is encoded on the card.
The best solution: keep an extra 50cents on the card so it never reaches zero. Add money after using the transfer. Stop by a subway station booth when you get off the bus and add money to your card.
Re: To not loose the Transfers when the value goes to zero ...
[The best solution: keep an extra 50cents on the card so it never reaches zero.]
This also assumes that you are not one of those who throws the card away instead of re-filling it. Some of us, who are collectors too, like to re-fill our favorite cards, again & again :-)
I had forgotten that tip, thanks for reminding us all again !!!
Mr t__:^)
If a ppr card contains enough fare for two but not four people traveling together, do the transfers already encoded with the valid dip/swipes remain or do they disappear when the $0.00 left is displayed? Station Agents, please respond. Thank you.
It disappears if you pay partway, but not if you pay nothing.
As for your other questions, I don't know if the card can even be used for more than 4 people at the paid part of a trip, but if it can, then I see no reason for the transfer to be lost once 4 people are paid in full.
[... I don't know if the card can even be used for more than 4 people ...]
Four is the magic number for "value" cards & this includes a Transfer for each of the four paid fares.
Mr t__:^)
If you dip it a fifth time for the first leg, will it reject it, or will it still charge it even though their will be no transfer?
[If you dip it a fifth time for the first leg, will it reject it ...]
It will reject the attempt, but since you're at the same station/bus it WO'NT take away one of the four Transfers.
Mr t__:^)
If 2 people use the same card on a local bus or subway, and one takes an express bus, are two step-ups deducted?
Step-ups to an express bus?
Yes
So basically that situation would lead to one angry rider screwed out of an extra $1.50. It also screws up the farebox count on local and express buses, and the entries count on the subway. That's why the cards should be used multiple times for multiple transfers. Isn't that what people thought they had to do in the first place?
[So basically that situation would lead to one angry rider screwed out of an extra $1.50. It also screws up the farebox count on local and express buses, and the entries count on the subway. That's why the cards should be used multiple times for multiple transfers. Isn't that what people thought they had to do in the first place?]
Pardon me but I don't understand what you're upset about ?
- Two friends board a subway or bus ... one ends their trip, the second continues on a Express Bus. It's fare is $3.00, $1.50 was paid , so $1.50 is needed ... what's the problem ? The orig. subway/bus boarding counts two customers, the bus line counts a "Transfer received" customer, if it's an Express it's a step up, if it's a local it's a free Transfer, but still a customer. The assumption is that the up to four folks using the one card are related in some way, i.e. kin or a group travling togather, so going to the same place, so what's the problem ?
Mr t__:^)
The card will deduct step-ups for 2 people, though only one is riding!
Does anybody know when the subway that runs through the 63rd street tunnel is going to be completed out to the existins Queens lines? I thought that it was supposed to be finished in 1999 but I haven't seen or read anything about it!
Its connected now track,third rail, swithces, it's all done, but no train has yet run there.
Well no in service train has. MOW trains have moved through there.
AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it's done, but they still need to install signals and test it whith every car type they have. Opinion from observer who has read over 100 posts about this very topic and compiled them into one sentence. Don't ask about what line, though Q is engraved in the new interlocking board (info from the transit professional formerly known as mr R46)
The tracks are just about completed, but the MTA still need time to build the stations, ready the cars, electrify and test the tracks, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, they need to add mouse food on the roadbeds to attract the mice so that the station will be a "genuine" subway station complete with running rats on the tracks just like the many other stations... and also add the little streams of sewer water trickling down the walls, .. and they also have to get the homeless bums to start urinating on some parts of the station since no station is a station without being urinated upon! ... These may take some extra months!
BUT SERIOUSLY, give or take by 2001 things should all be ready.
There is no station.
Maybe he's thinking of a station behind the wall at Lex. I don't think there'll be one, but maybe.
That station already exists. Whether it'll ever serve it's purpose (allowing Bway trains access to 2nd Ave.) remains to be seen.
And so far it's just a shell of rough concrete.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've seen it. It's unfinished, but has modern flourescent lighting and marked exits.
They've added the lighting since I've been there then ... only the platform level was lit with anything other than bare incandescent bulbs when I was there. I don't remember about the exits.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Something tells me that it's the beginning of the week again.
Yeah, it is.
There are 52 weeks in a year. Based on past performance, someone has asked every week about the 63rd street tunnel. And every week the same answers get posted.
Either there's a lot of people wanting to know, or just a couple of folks who just don't get it.
Gee, somebody 250 miles away got it the first time.
Lots of theories, no definite news.
Wait and see.
Stay tuned.
For a while, a new train ran on the #2 line with LCD displays and a computerized voice making announcements, presumably making triaL runs.
No one I spoke to liked it, since it had so few seats and nowhere for standees to hold on. I'd be happy to see the stainless-steel trains
which have run on the #1, #4 and #6 lines for years now shared with the other IRT lines, despite their tiny seats.
(Sorry if this sounds like old news).
Rearding new, computerized #2 train, I meant to ask what the status of this new, trial train is? I haven't seen it in a while.
The R-110a which you refer to was a prototype. It is not presently in service. The feedback received on this train was used to help design the R-142 which is presently in testing. This site offers info on both, from the main page scroll down and click on photographs.
Peace,
ANDEE
Does anybody knows if the R110a's belong to the NYCTA,I mean did they
buy the ten car train?
Definitely. Who else could use 51' narrow cars?
PATH ????????
[PATH ????????]
Too long, as far as I know.
Actually, too narrow.
[Actually, too narrow.]
I've heard too many variations on this to believe anything anymore! It seems that current PATH cars are a few inches wider and not as long, but:
"Re: PATH/IRT: This old question again!
Posted by subway-buff@mindspring.com on Fri Apr 7 17:35:20 2000, in response to PATH/IRT: This old question again!, posted by Lou from Middletown NY on Fri Apr 7 09:48:35 2000
According to PATH Officials: A PATH train CAN ran on the IRT but an IRT train car can NOT run on PATH due to the profiles of the PATH cars. In fact, PATH advised that when they (PATH) use the Sperry Rail Car, they can use only one specific car due to clearance problems."
04/25/2000
[Definitely. Who else could use 51' narrow cars? ]
CTA (Chicago) ??
Bill Newkirk
Too long!
CTA cars are 48 feet.
Thanks for the reply Subwaysurf, I'll check out the photos.
Robert
In Sundays Paper, they had an article, named Show me the Money. After reading the article, I heard they approved the CSP(Capitol spending plan). They said all they need to do now is to tune it up, and find out where they can get the money.
The MTA capital spending plan was approved as proposed, with one exception. The original capital plan included $700 million to study part of the Second Avenue Subway. That is no longer the case.
Instead, $1 billion to study a full length Second Avenue subway will be included in a bond referendum. The LIRR to GCT gets built whether the bond is approved or disapproved, through bonds backed by the subway fare. The Second Avenue Subway does not get built in either case. The bond issue also includes a variety of road projects. Pataki agreed to the bond issue, but is likely to oppose public approval now that LIRR to GCT is approved and will be paid for by subway riders.
I realize that I'm from the low-rent district, but one billion dollars just to STUDY the Second Avenue Subway? A billion dollars should buy more than a study, even in these days of bloated dot.com wealth. At this rate, no one living today will ever see construction, much less ride a Second Avenue train.
The original $700 million appropriated in the MTA Capital Program was for preliminary and final engineering work, plus some construction (E. 92nd Street to the junction at E. 63rd Street). About $350 million has been added to that for the beginning of the process to get the line down to lower Manhattan.
David
My understanding is not that the $700 million would fund 63rd St to 92nd, but that it would start construction on this segment. Fully funding just this small part would cost much more. Why, I don't know.
As far as I'm concerned, they should be able to skip the damn studies, and (for $1 billion) build the whole thing from 63rd to 125th. If they expected to do that, then I'd have some hope.
Let me rephrase: The $700 million was for preliminary and final engineering on the "stubway" (E. 125th to E. 63rd Streets) and for construction from E. 92nd to E. 63rd Streets.
David
[As far as I'm concerned, they should be able to skip the damn studies, and (for $1 billion) build the whole thing from 63rd to 125th. If they expected to do that, then I'd have some hope.]
Probably more like $1.5 billion to do that ($350 million/mile for a 3 mile line plus stations and equipment). (Even without the graft, pork, and delays it's more expensive to tunnel in NYC than most places, because of all the rock.)
[it's more expensive to tunnel in NYC than most places, because of all the rock]
What I've read it's cheaper to tunnel through the bedrock than soft soil, at least under the water. Reason given was that you don't have to spend as much supporting the tunnel as the rock itself helps.
Arti
Except that the rock underlying Manhattan is not so good support-wise. To quote an engineer writing about the design and construction of the Dual Contracts lines:
"On account of the fact that the New York rock, a micaceous gneiss, is well known to present difficulties of support -- that is, on account of bad seams, etc., to be 'heavy' in places -- it was decided to use a reinforced-concrete lining for the deep-level tunnels under Lexington Avenue."
Lavis, Fred; Building the New Rapid Transit System of New York City Circa 1915 (Belleville, NJ: Xplorer Press, 1996). [Available at the New York Transit Museum.]
["On account of the fact that the New York rock, a micaceous gneiss, is well known to present difficulties of support -- that is, on account of bad seams, etc., to be 'heavy' in places -- it was decided to use a reinforced-concrete lining for the deep-level tunnels under Lexington Avenue."]
Why did they use those deep level tunnels anyway, rather than the much more convenient cut-and-cover used on the West Side? Transfers to the express are a royal pain.
What express? The original route from Grand Central up Lex had only a local station at 59th Street. The express stop was a later retrofit.
86th is quite a pain too.
Arti
[What express? The original route from Grand Central up Lex had only a local station at 59th Street. The express stop was a later retrofit.]
A good argument for doing the Second Avenue right from the beginning.
Absolutely.
[What I've read it's cheaper to tunnel through the bedrock than soft soil, at least under the water. Reason given was that you don't have to spend as much supporting the tunnel as the rock itself helps.]
Anyone know? I've read the opposite, but the source wasn't definitive.
There are many types of "soft" soil, and many types of rock, and many types of tunnels. I'd imagine you cannot generalize about which is cheaper.
(There are many types of "soft" soil, and many types of rock, and many types of tunnels. I'd imagine you cannot generalize about which is cheaper.)
But what can generalize about which is most expensive. Whatever method is used under a public contract in New York State.
A few days ago i saw the r 68/r68a b train it certainly exists.
What are the spotting features to differentiate the R68A from the R68?
1 - Car numbers.
2 - Cab door slides on R68a like on R46, uses hinges on R68 like R-62.
3 - The floor. I'm not sure how, but they're different. Also, some 68a s have Black floors with white spots.
4 - The destination sign. R68 takes up more window space, and (to me) is less attractive. Also, the place to stick the crank for the sign is silver and kinda sticking out on the 68, while the 68a s is more like the 62s with the crank spot behind a thin rubber thing in the hole.
5 - The thing that props the storm door open. Normal on one, odd on the other. Not totally sure which is which, but I think the 68 is normal (as in like the R33s and some R62s).
6 - Westinghouse plate on 68, Kawasaki plate on 68a.
7 - Destination sign clearer on 68a than 68 (opinion).
8 - Speed. The Kawasakis move faster. (another opinion).
I'm great at this...
NUMBERS
-------
R68 = 2500-2924
R68A = 5001-5200
CAB DOORS
---------
R68 = Hinged
R68A = Sliding
DESTINATION SIGN
----------------
R68 = Most have Station Name over Borough
R68A = Most have Station Name only
BUILDER PLATE
-------------
R68 = Westinghouse-Amrail
R68A = Kawasaki
RAIN GUTTER
-----------
R68 = Extends over whole body.
R68A = Only over doors and Cab Windows
DOOR CONTROL PANEL BORDER (Panels Behind Ads)
---------------------------------------------
R68 = Thick
R68A = Thin
METAL JOINTS
------------
R68 = With Bearing
R68A = Welded
EXTERIOR WINDOW BORDERS
-----------------------
R68 = Thick and black
R68A = Thin and metal
Other Differences I have no clue how to say they are different...
Floors
Step Plates
Sound Of Brakes
floors : the floors are different one a majority of the 68a fleet
Type a: black floors
Type b: tan floors (flat)These are like the R68
Type c: tan floors (with little bumps by the boors and clear breaks in the pannels)
There are no R-68A cars with the floors you refer to as type b. The entire R-68A fleet had the tan floors. The anti-skid treads were added as a modification in 1994-95 to all except the cars that received the black floors. I believe that in all, 20 cars were done with the black floors between 1995 and 1996.
Thanks for all of the info, you guys. I can now differentiate all of the A division rolling stock-Do I get a candy bar or something? Next: (and I should hurry) RedBirds.
Dave
Is there ANY way to tell apart the R-26 and R-28?
Here is how to tell them apart:
R-26/28=Built by ACF, rebuilt by MK has a beige ceiling with speakers in the round fan vents (where AC air comes out).
R-29=Same as above, except built by St. Louis
R-33=White ceiling, non-functioning lamps where speakers are above. Rebuilt by NYCTA, still built by St. Louis
R-36WF=Same as above except for keyholes for sign turning and picture windows. Lights still turn off at third rail gaps and center light track is still there (and the light in the fan vent thing is an emergency light)
R-33WF=MUST DIE! No air conditioning, round fan vents have no light and are include many slats, the intake vents are not plugged up and those protruding AC intake and heat exchanger thing on the ceiling supported (and supplied) by the fat poles is not there.
R-36ML=I think it's like the R-36WF except for the lack of picture windows (keys for sign turning, center light track, lights off at gaps).
By the way, it's the B division rolling stock that you can tell apart. The A division is IRT.
Ive seen the "type Bs" in service on the B.
How'd ya do that? The head post is from 2000, when Pigs was still Pigs!
:o Andrew
you can respond to the archives now :)
Well, that certainly sounds like a bug in Dave's software!
- Lyle Goldman
Man, you are dead set against believing that it might be a feature not a bug?
You mean you allow that on purpose? I thought you didn't want people responding to the archives. I could have sworn you once said that explicitly.
- Lyle Goldman
let's not forget:
Speakers - 68A linear pattern / 68 circular pattern
Overall lighting: 68A dimmer / 68 not so dimmer
Poles at doors: 68A bottom is welded, not screwed on
Interior "brown ceiling color", also the color on rollsigns: 68A is darker
i disagree. i've noticed R68A to have BRIGHTER lighting, not dimmer.
Hmm, maybe I was looking for whiter and not exactly brighter.
You're responding to a two year-old post. One question I have to ask: HOW?
Holy crap! How did this get in here?
Actually, since July 22, 2001, all R68s and R68As have the same rollsigns. Maybe the windows looking into them are dirtier on the R68s. And there is maybe 1 or 2 cars with the old rolls in them out in the south.
One more difference I noticed is the door indicators (the red-light indicators next to the passenger doors). R-68's normally have a ring around their door indicators, the R-68A's do not.
side gutters 68as are discontinous 68s are continuous
I agree with you on the speed of the R-68As. The R-68As are faster than the R-68s. The R-68As are a good deal quieter than the R-68s which make that ANNOYING squealing noise that comes through the P/A system. Speaking of which when I rode on R-68 car #2802 on March 24, 2002 on the "Q" line the squealing noise was so great that I had to wear the hood that I normally use to help keep my minor cleft palate from bothering me in cool weather to protect my EARS FROM THE SQUEALING NOISE THAT WAS COMING THROUGH THE P/A SYSTEM!! If any of you know of any particularly noisy R-68s please let me know so that I can be prepared. If any of you should see me wearing a black hood while riding an R-68 you'll know that particular car has a particularly loud squealing noise.
#3 West End Jeff
Things have changed since the last century, when the post to which you're responding was made.
Ya know? A buddy of mine who's a farmer came over a few days ago to ride our tractor around on our "lawn" for 8 hours out of boredom and turned me on to something really neat that I'd never considered since I just go out on the tractor and do the 8 acres "bare-eared" ... they make these neat little foam plugs for the ears that truly attenuate sound (OK, his main purpose for doing so was that we had to cut down twenty dead Elm trees on the periphery of the farm here and that necessitated a bigarse chainsaw) ... but he also wore them out on the tractor as well.
I gave them a try just for laughs and giggles and they really work. (yes, it was a FRESH set, not his) ... if the noise anywhere really is that bothersome, these little foam earplugs really work to the point where you only hear the noise when you open your mouth and sound gets to your eardrums through your sinuses. If it bothers you that much, these things beat all hell out of the grim reaper uniform. ":)
(unique smiley means hair parted to the side)
The grim reaper uniform or hood DOES work to some extent and it gives me a unique look. Maybe you should consider my grim reaper appearance something distinctive and positive. Even though I look like an executioner with the little black hood, I'm often too hyper to act like one. I too can try those little earplugs to keep that ANNOYING!! squealing sound produced by the P/A system of some of the R-68s from bothering. What the heck, it might even work!!
#3 West End Jeff
Also remember that R-32s had the PA on with static %90 of the time at the railfan windows. Though latly (3 mounths or so) they seem to have fixed it.
>>>...with static %90 of the time at the railfan windows.<<<
ONLY at the railfan window. 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
A while back this question came up. Someone (I forget who) pointed out that the rain gutters on the R-68 run the full length of the car and the rain gutters on the R-68A only run above the doors.
I really want to know how you just end up seeing messages so far back.
What are your search settings?
What was the real purpose of having the "A" attached after some car names? (R62, R62A, R68. R68A, R142, R142A, etc.)
I know there are slight variations but was one made to be slightly better than the other, as some differences are more preferred by passengers.
Answers would be greatly appreciated.
The "A" denotes a different contract number -- usually the splitting of an order between two manufacturers (in the cases cited, Bombardier and Kawasaki).
In the case of R-32 vs. R-32A, they're basically the same cars and were built by the same manufacturer (Budd). The difference is in the funding for the cars: bonds vs. a direct capital outlay.
There is a slight difference between R-30 and R-30A (the other case of an "A" designation), but I can't remember what it is.
David
I believe there was a difference before the rebuilds. One model (I forget which) had three rows of lights with difusers, while the other model had a center row of lights and lighted advertising signs. They also had different fan vent louvres.
R-32A: 3350-3649
R-32: 3650-3949
3800-3949 had the backlighting and the newer-style fan covers.
David
Another important difference between "A" and no A:
R40- Has the easily identifiable "slant" design.
R40A- Same type of car minus the slant.
Half the R40As have a slant nose i think
How about 300 of them! 100 were with the new Sundberg-Ferrar design (R40M) that was the design of the future for that time. Well, that design lasted for I believe the R-46 order. The R62/68 design relied on a single car design, so that changed that.
200 R40- Slant
100 R40A-Slant
100 R40A-Straight
There's no such thing as a model R-40A in the New York City subway system.
There's R-40 (cars 4150-4449), and there's R-40M (4450-4549).
David
There was never any such designation as R-40A. The R-40 contract was delivered in 3 stages.
The first stage was 200 R-40 Slants built with clasp brakes and no AC.
The second stage was 100 R-40 Slants built with clasp brakes and AC.
The third stage was 100 R-40Ms built with non sloping bonnets, package brakes and AC. All were built under the same contract with change-orders accounting for the variations.
Are Package Brakes tread brake units?
One and the same!! We call them TBUs but most properties refer to them as package brakes since the brake and rigging are in one pacage.
No it's 200 with slants (R40). And 100 R40M (Modified Slants with different A/C covers and handpole placements, and 100 R40M (No slants but has the new pole arrangements and A/C covers.)
OOPS! I forgot about the 4350-4449, the ones with the A/C.
According to the trains per hour schedules now being posted, traffic is way up on the A/C/F from Brooklyn during rush hours, along with the B. In fact, the Manhattan Bridge and 6th Avenue express are up to 30 tph scheduled. This corresponds with my sense of the service -- it seems frequent, even in the mid-days.
This shows that the key barrier is infrastructure.
On the other hand, the number of N and R trains is low -- just 7.5 per hour each, with an eight minute wait, even at rush hour. And they are far from full beyond DeKalb. The Manhattan Bridge is the quickest route to 3/4 of the jobs, but is accomodating only 60 percent of the service.
Should have built that Rutgers Connection.
A while ago you posted some statistics on the number of people entering Manhattan (below 60th St.) daily through various subway lines, rail lines, and automotive bridges and tunnels. What I'd like to know is, how on earth can they know these numbers?
The toll bridges and tunnels, sure: vehicles are counted automatically at the toll booths. For the free bridges, they could put up those wires (hoses?) that count the number of vehicles crossing. Counting cars from "the north" is more problematical: they would need to put up those counters on every avenue from York to West End, plus the FDR Drive and West Side Highway, simultaneously. Did they really do this?
For the railroads, conductors would have to be instructed to count the total number of passengers on the run into GCT or Penn Station, including those with monthly passes that are normally just scanned visually. Do they keep such a count? Would they do it specially for this survey if they usually don't? It sounds unlikely, but not impossible. Certainly the number of tickets/passes sold is not an accurate count of the number actually used on a given day.
But on the subway? There is no conceivable way to get an accurate count of how many people are in a rush-hour subway train entering Manhattan. Counting fares paid along a line certainly doesn't give an accurate count - people can change trains before entering Manhattan, or even take trains entirely within Brooklyn, Queens, or the Bronx. How many people boarding at "F" train stations change for the "A" or "C" at Jay St., or vice versa? How could this possibly be counted?
I have heard that (some?) subway cars are equipped with weight-measurement devices in the floors, which are used to adjust the amount of power sent to the motors for a given controller setting in order to compensate for the added inertia of more heavily loaded cars. But there isnt any readout from these scales, is there? If there were, taking this value and dividing by the weight of an "average" person could give a reasonable approximation of the number of people on board - not a precise count, but close. But that would require that all trains running the day of the survey be equipped with such readouts, which they surely weren't. So, where did the numbers come from?
[On the other hand, the number of N and R trains is low -- just 7.5 per hour each, with an eight minute wait, even at rush hour. And they are far from full beyond DeKalb. The Manhattan Bridge is the quickest route to 3/4 of the jobs, but is accomodating only 60 percent of the service.
Should have built that Rutgers Connection.]
I wonder whether the Broadway line will be successful even if express service is restored.
From Brooklyn, express service veers away to the West Side instead of the East Side where most of the tower are. Local service parallels the Lex, which is faster
From Queens: again, bypasses the midtown district. Transfer from the E/F to the Lexington Avenue local/express is faster for people going to lower Manhattan
From GCT and the East Side: doesn't go there
From the Upper West Side: bypasses midtown business district and the 7th Avenue line is faster to lower Manhattan
From Penn Station to lower Manhattan: ditto, but more so
Unless your starting point or destination is right on the line, it's hard to think of a reason to take it.
I love the N-Train.
(I love the N-Train).
You must ride it in Manhattan. According to the poster, the service frequency is much greater between Queens and Whitehall than in Brooklyn at rush hour. Vallone said the subways should run every five minutes, and that's what he got -- in Astoria. Service was cut in Brooklyn to come up with the cars.
Unless I'm wrong, the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail lacks interior buttons or pull-cords for the passenger to indicate "Next Stop, Please." So, like a subway train, it makes all stops. Note the contrasting design of the Norristown Line (the P&W). A passenger on board may signal the operator, "Next Stop, Please," as on an ordinary Jersey City bus. A passenger desiring to board, flips a switch that shows a "Passenger waiting" signal to the oncoming car. As a result, the Norristown cars zip through stations lacking anyone boarding or alighting. The locals are scheduled 28 minutes for 13(?) miles, 20 possible stops. The Hudson-Bergen, which waits for traffic signals and apparently stops at passengerless stations, has the same end-to-end time for about half the miles.
It has a push tape cleverly hidden (grey tape on a silver strip on the wall. Some strips have the tape, some don't. It's fun touching the strips, looking for one with tape), but you can request a stop. The digital sign that is supposed to be used for automated stop announcement lights up and says STOP REQUESTED. It also has user-operated doors, but they open all the doors anyway because of problems with the feature.
I tried using one of those strips and it had no effect. The electronic signs and announcements had been turned off after giving completely the wrong information at the beginning of the line, so maybe that had something to do with it. The strips seemed to have nothing at all explaining their purpose or use, so I assume they're not meant to be used. Anyway, at each station we made a long stop with the doors open even when no one got on or off, which was particularly annoying because the day I was riding was (like many days of late) windy, rainy, and somewhat cold. I sorely missed the user-operated doors on that ride.
The auto-stop announcements only work right on 2017. Everything else, they use it at the first stop to set the digital sign and then shut it off. I remember one car did not have the tape working, though the others did. It makes a low pitch noise, and if the auto-stop announcement is on it alternates with next stop, this stop, etc.
I hope that you or any of your friends who ride the #7 train will be whooping it up tonight or tomorrow because the Mets have won nine in a row and defeated the equally hot Dodgers 1-0 today. That gives me bragging rights out here at least for awhile as the Dodger fans find all kinds of excuses not to face reality---The Mets rule. Fans riding the #4 train can't be too happy because the Yankees also played today at home and lost to the Minnesota Twins---THE MINNESOTA TWINS. There is indeed justice in the world.
PSSSTT!!! Hey, Buddy! It's only _8_ in a row!
-Hank
8 in a row, I was there too, Mez Sec 10 Row K 3 and 4. Got my highlight video tape too. Psst don't tell work I walked out at noon.
Your secret is safe with me, but watch out for some of those treacherous Yankee fans. You can't trust any of them. Good to know you are a Mets fan. You could have been in Yankee Stadium watching those guys lose. Wasn't that great?
I will be, June 9-11. :)
-Hank
YANKEES WORLD CHAMPS 1996,98,99 25 in 75 years. Mets 2 in 38 who has the better ods. Give it up Fred.
I'm a Mets fan first, and a New York fan second. In the event of a Subway Series, well, put it this way: I will never root against the Mets.
Stop hedging! If you are even considering rooting for the Yankees, you are not a real Mets fan. No real Mets can root for the damn Yankees. I despise those guys and have for over 50 years.
We've won nine in a row while your boys have lost two in a row to the Twins---THE TWINS!!!!!!!!!!. This is 2000 so stop living in the past. The Yanks are getting old and it soon will be 1982-1995 all over again. The Mets are on the rise and will be No. 1 in New York again and very soon.
I agree with you Sea Beach Fred! LMAO!!! THE TWINS!!!! HAHAHAHAHA!
But you should be Sea Beach Fred # 7 cause the Mets are right near the # 7, not the # 4. The 4 is the Yankee Line. I've been a NY Met Fan all of my life. 9 straight for the Mets! Let's hope for a home sweep!
R36Gary
Uhm, the 4 used to be the Sea Beach line in the pre-NYCT days.
-Hank
Thank you Hank old buddy. If I knew you told him so I could have saved myself sending him the same message.
Q46: A man after my own heart---and don't get too perturbed about last night. If you are going to lose a game, lose it big. That way there is no second guessing of how you "might" have won. There was no way the Mets could have won last night. Now for another streak. #4 has nothing to do with the train to YS. It used to be the number of the Sea Beach before the TA changed things long after I left New York.
Uh-huh. And the majority of those in the age BEFORE free agency, when the dollar became the only thing between your team and a pennant; as proven by the 1997 Florida Marlins and the 1994 World Series. When you controlled your players from draft until retirement, you could do lots.
-Hank
Oh, I left something out-
The majority of those were also against much less competition. Until 1961, there were a mere 8 teams in each league. (1961 the American expanded to 10 teams with the Los Angelos Angels and the second coming of the Washington Senators)
National-
St. Louis Cardnials
Chicago Cubs
Philadelphia Phillies
Pittsburgh Pirates
New York Giants
Brooklyn Dodgers
Boston Braves
Cincinatti Reds
American-
Chicago White Sox
Boston Red Sox
St. Louis Browns
New York Yankees
Washington Senators
Philadelphia Athletics
Cleaveland Indians
Detroit Tigers
-Hank
Hank: I stand corrected. It will be nine today---or are you just a soil sport Yankee fan trying to rain on my parade?
DON'T YOU EVER ACCUSE ME OF BEING A YANKEES FAN!!!
-Hank :)
Mets fan since 1984, and proud of it (even 1990-93, when they SUCKED)!
Hank: I do apologize. Your angry response has convinced me you are one of us. BTW I became a Mets fan in 1984, too. That was the year Davey Johnson took over, and Dwight Gooden was a rookie. The mid-and late 1980's were great times for the Mets and I look forward to such a renaissance this decade. And it is now nine in a row.
Yes, it is 9 in a row. We'll see if they get to 11; they've had four such streaks before. I became a Mets fan in 1968, so naturally I remember 1969 very well. IMHO, they truly sucked during the 1977-83 time period.
So who did you root for between 57 and 84, The Dodgers Right?
I really didn't have a favorite team during that period, but I did follow the Dodgers from a distance. The reasons are simple. One is my wife is a diehard Dodger fan, two, my good friend Gail Henley was a long time Dodger scout, and he and his wife are my daughter's Godparents. But I never was a rabid rooter for them and much of the time I was usually happy when they got beat----just as I feel now. I did get a lot of free tickets to games, plus I received a year pass because I ran a Senior Babe Ruth program, and then a Stan Musial program and the Dodgers usually gave people like us passes because we would give them advice on some prospects in our area. BUT AFTER 1959 OR 1960 NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND COULD CALL ME A DODGER FAN.
[NOTEZI: OFF-TOPIC]
Yep, those Mets really know how to mash, don't they. Whether it's 15-8 or 1-0 - they seem to have found their winning ways. I like that Derek Bell, his style reminds me of one Mr. Tommie Agee. You remember HIM, don't you? Derek hit one into the Agee Zone during the 15-8 mash on Sunday.
Wayne
Ah, yes, Tommie Agee. He hit a Ruthian home run into the upper deck on April 10, 1969 against Montreal. No doubt that ball would have gone well over 500 feet. There's a photo of Agee and Jones in one of the yearbooks from that era which refers to them as "the inseparables".
And that's the spot with the 'dot' in the upper deck in left. Longest homer in Shea history, but not in Mets history. Butch Huskey had one in 1998 at the Vet.
-Hank
How far did Huskey's shot go? Darryl Strawberry hit some prodigious home runs as well while wearing a Met uniform, so I figured he held the record for the longest dinger in Met history.
Not exactly sure, but I remember hearing that it was one of only 2 homers hit into the 400 level (the highest) at the Vet. The other was Mike Schmidt, IIRC.
-Hank
I heard Greg Luzinski once hit one off the Liberty Bell (no, not that one) which hung from one of the levels in left center at the Vet.
That wasn't opening day, 1969, when the Expos actually BEAT the Mets, I think it was 11-7 or something like that; anyway Duffy Dyer hit a Home Run and Mr. DONN CLENDENON was seen in an Expos' uniform that day, prior to his donning (no pun) the blue-pinstriped #22 later that season, en route to an absolute Mash of everybody, including the Baltimore Orioles, a team I like about as much as a #2800-series LIRR MP-72.
You remember Clendenon's HR in the WS? I thought it would NEVER come down. Piazza hit one almost in the exact same spot the other day.
Wayne
The final score on Opening Day in 1969 was 11-10 in favor of the Expos, with ex-Met Don Shaw (whom M. Donald Grant spoke of as "my Donnie Shaw") getting the win in relief and Tom Seaver not having a particularly good outing. Dyer's dinger was a pinch-hit, 3-run shot in the last of the ninth. Gil Hodges was philosophical after the game: "You know Seaver is a better pitcher than that (duh!). The next time we get ten runs when he's pitching, I think we'll win."
Clink's story was interesting. Pittsburgh left him unprotected in the expansion draft, and the Expos picked him, then traded him to Houston. But Donn refused to report and retired instead. The Expos then sent someone else and a chunk of change to the Astros, and Clink was allowed to rejoin Montreal. That deal on June 15 which sent Kevin Collins, Steve Renko, Jay Carden (sp), and Dave Colon to the Expos for Clink has to rank as one of the best deals in Met history. Donn was a big admirer of Gil Hodges, who had given Clink fielding tips several years earlier.
Donn hit three dingers in the Series, and that moon shot in Game 5 came after Cleon Jones got on first as a result of a pitch ricocheting off his shoe into the Met dugout. The shoe polish on the ball was the clinching evidence. I got home from school that day in time to catch the ninth inning on TV, and was late for a drum lesson because I stayed to watch the Shea field get all torn up once again.
One can only imagine how the ride on the 7 was back to Manhattan that day. One Madison Ave. bus driver announced, "Everybody on free!" when the last out was made, which I'm sure didn't over very well with his superiors. One of the newspapers carried a simple headline: THEY DID IT.
I wasn't a Mets fan back them; didn't become one until 1984, but I was every bit as happy as Mets fans because the underdog hapless Mets had come full circle. Those are the kinds of stories that are almost fables.
There was a story that during the 1969 World Series, Wes Parker of the Dodgers and some of his friends got tickets to the games at Shea. Their seats were in the upper deck, about where you'd find Bob Uecker, and Wes forgot he was a ballplayer and found himself cheering for the Mets. He said afterwards he had a good time.
Don't know if he took the 7 to Shea, to keep this on topic...
Wayne Mr-Slant R40: Like Lou from Brooklyn, I've found another Mets fan on the line. Good show. Hope the Mets go all the way. BTW, I have sent away for a brochure for a trip to various ballparks this summer. Certainly one of them will have to be Shea. Hopefully by then the Mets will be in first place. It would be nice if the Dodgers took care of the Braves so we can grab first place right now, but I think the Mets win yesterday took all the starch out of the LA Bums. I expect them to fall through the roof at any moment.
Flakey Arcadia Fred, was a Bum Fan in Brooklyn, moved to LA before the Dodgers, and when they move to LA in 58, he called them traitors.
Oh Brighton #1 Express Bob, what am I going to do with you? The fact is, please note, was that I was elated when the Dodgers first came to Los Angeles. But with three years, even though they won a Series, I no longer felt any affinity for them. I thought O'Malley was a greedy bum for putting the team in that monstrous Coliseum. For baseball that was a joke. It was a giant saucer that was great for baking clay and not much else. They were carrying out people by the carload that first series with the Giants in 1958. And they did everything they could to distance themselves from anything to do with Brooklyn and said so. That pissed me off and I turned against them. That's not being flakey, that's having principles and pride of where I came from and lived for awhile. If a person is not proud of where he came from he's not much of a person in my book. The Mets are from Queens. I lived in Queens. The Dodgers were from Brooklyn. I lived in Brooklyn. It's as simple as that.
The Dodgers are in LA and you live in LA County, Yes O Malley was a greedy SOB, he and Poulson ripped off the people of LA with Chasev Ravine. If the Giants did not leave NY, I do not think the Dodgers would have either. If the Giants went to Phoenix in 57, would the Dodgers have gone to Tucson. Yes and the Dodger Fan in LA is WEIRD. They have to listen to Scully on the radio to tell them what is going on and understand the game. I may have been a Yankee Fan then and now and hated the Bums. I did like the Dodgers even more, since I am still a Brooklynite and they sold out our boro, and the games at Ebbets Field were fun. Boy I am getting sentimental in my older years. It must be all the old people from Madison HS I found on classmates.com, even Hey Paul found a few subway fans on it.
As I understand the story, the Dodgers were all set to build their new stadium in Downtown Brooklyn, but Moses didn't want it there, so they never got permission to build. The O'Malley then convinced the Giant's owners to come with him, and that was that.
-Hank
We may never know what went through O'Malley's mind. When the Brooklyn Sports Authority, formed late in 1955, reported that only $25,000 was available for a study on the Atlantic-Flatbush site in July, 1956, that might be the time he first thought about the West Coast. I do know LA City Councilman Kenneth Hahn was at the 1956 World Series and O'Malley talked to him as length. In Feb of 1957, he traded the Forth Worth minor league franchise for the LA one with the Cubs. The fat was then on the fire and he convinced Horace Stoneham to barfcan his plans to go to Minneapolis and take his Giants to SF.
I remember the Bums played about 10 games one year in Jersey,City and the next year about 20 more.
That was in 1956 and 1957. They did it to drive home their point about needing a new ballpark.
Fat hell of a lot of good it did. They played ten games each year. In 1956 they won all the games there except one. Johnny Antonelli of the Giants beat Don Newcombe of the Dodgers 1-0. The Giants beat the Dodgers the only game played there in 1957, though the Dodgers won both season series'----14-8 and 12-10.
There was a lot of noise in the newspapers for a new stadium in Brooklyn for the Dodgers.
even though i reside in los angeles county i thought is was unfair how the dodgers left brooklyn
and destroyed chavez ravine to build dodger stadium here !!
and how the city of los angeles also participated in this ( back in the 1960s ) but they couldnt save the pacific electric
red car railway system !!
But I'll bet most of your classmates at Madison High were Dodger fans and not Yankee fans. As far as being sentimental I qualify for that too. We do agree 100% on one thing. The LA fans are by far the dumbest, wierdest fans in baseball. They have no knowledge of the game and go just to be seen and spend most of their time eating. It is a social gathering for them They come late, leave early, and don't know jack ---- about baseball.
Too bad also, Scully is probably the best baseball announcer in the business and he is with LA, too bad non of the networks want him any more, unless he wants it that way
Scully also did football for CBS in the 70s. He wasn't all that bad, certainly better than, say, Brent Musberger.
There is one announcer that I rate along with Scully and always have. That's Ernie Harwell. He's been an American Leaguer since 1954 but he broke in with the Brooklyn Dodgers in 1948, and went with the Giants in 1950 for four years. I always have liked his crisp delivery and clipped but articulate Southern accent. I feel he has never gotten the full credit he deserves, and even though Scully is probably no. 1, I think I enjoy listening to Harwell just about as much.
The Mets have two broadcasters who have been there since the beginning: Bob Murphy and Ralph Kiner. Lindsay Nelson was the third original broadcaster; he left before the start of the 1979 season. All three are in the Mets Hall of Fame, and Murphy, if I'm not mistaken, is in the broadcasting section of baseball's Hall of Fame. Murphy was behind the radio mike when Joe Torre grounded into a game-ending double play to clinch the Eastern Division title in 1969, as well as the pennant and World Series clinchers in 1986.
One of the alltime gaffes in broadcasting had to be Jerry Coleman's description of Rich Folkers as he was getting ready to loosen up in the bullpen. You know how you can say either "warming up" or "throwing down" in the bullpen? Well, Coleman put two and two together and said (sorry, Wayne), "Rich Folkers is throwing up in the bullpen". Even Yogi Berra never said anything like that.
Joe Garagiolla(Spelling) was not that bad either, neither was Curt Gowdy. Surpising was Don Drysdale with the Dodgers and Angels. But Scully has lasted all these years.
NOW !! you are tlking about the good old days maury wills was my favorite dodger back then
watching sandy koufax vs willie mays at bat !!! ......that was baseball man !! ... also juan marshall willie mccovey
and don drysdale side arm delivery !! they dont make baseball like the 4 game sweep of the yankees 1963 !!!
don drysdale was a great announcer for the california angels i still have the soundtrack audio tapes and the
1979 pennant clincher audio exerps of thier first westen division win !!
and i still hate the baltimore orioles to this day !!!
Garagiola once reminisced about a time when, while with the Giants, Leo Durocher told him to strike out and keep and inning alive.
Ouch!
>>>One of the alltime gaffes in broadcasting had to be Jerry Coleman's description of Rich Folkers as he was
getting ready to loosen up in the bullpen.<<<
BTW, Richie Folkers came up with the Mets, I believe in 1970 or 71.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yep, he sure did. I don't believe he was still with the Mets when Coleman made that gaffe.
Now, had he been on a certain F train in 1973, his call would have been most appropriate.
If you're too bored, you can come to the chat at #metrocard on irc.cjb.net (or javairc.mircx.com) or come to chat.cjb.net/metrocard. I'll be sitting there.
I had occasion to travel from the WTC to Hoboken on the PATH today and wasn't paying particular attention, but as we rounding the curve out of the WTC station I couldn't help but see a large darkened space with what looked like platforms. Is that the remnants of the old Hudson Terminal station of the H & M?
Carl M.
I think it is. I believe it is still physically connected to the rest of PATH. Trains can still go there if they wish. I could be wrong. If I am, someone set me straight.
Train Buff Headquarters
I've heard that the old Hudson Terminal is either a truck loading area or a storage area for computer media. In any case, the old loop was shaped differently than the current one - the current one is wider. You should have seen the old loop - the south end of the platform was actually situated on the curved stretch of track and trains approached it, wheels howling, at no more than about 7MPH. Of course, the trains did not load here (they'd have needed gap fillers); they loaded at the platform's straight middle section. The platforms featured white tiled pillars (since it was [originally built] beneath buildings, fire code required this), "Casablanca" style fans (which didn't work) and halophane light fixtures on the ceiling. The curve at the south end was just about 90 degrees, at the north end it was more like 115 degrees and had an even more severe turning radius, probably no more than ~100 feet on the interior track.
I think the old station was located to the east of where the current one is. On my first visit there, December 27, 1969, I did not remember such a long walk from the Cortlandt Street BMT station. In fact, IIRC the stairways to the platform were located just down a short (maybe 100 feet or so) hall from Cortlandt Street station's north exit. The current station is way (maybe as much as a few hundred yards) further west.
I visited the old H&M terminal four times; three times departing, once arriving. Twice I departed on 1958 "K" stock (once to Newark, once to Hoboken), the other times were to/from Newark on PA-1s. The last time, the World Trade Centre was well under construction, and the tubes were actually unearthed. I could see the new trackways under construction through the slats as we passed.
Wayne
Peter Dougherty's track book shows five tracks and three platforms at WTC ... IIRC only two are in use, the third "C" being behind a wall.
Mr t__:^)
The 3rd platform is not behind a wall. They don't use it because they have no use for it. One platform is used for Newark trains and the other for Hoboken trains. The 3rd platform is simply excess capacity.
here are the normal track assignments at WTC, but any train can use any track- in either direction and sometimes I have seen them change ends and leave the way they came in.
TRACKS 4-5 :Newark Trains
TRACKS 2-3 :Hoboken Trains
during late nights while Hoboken trains are still running to WTC, Newark trains will use track 3 and Hoboken Track 2. Late nights thjey will usually use track 3 for the Newark Train, but sometimes they'll use track 5.
TRACK 1 is not normally used but can be used.
Track 1 is a wall platform, track 2-3 share an island as do 4-5.
33rd -- Journal Square-- Track 1
Hoboken--------- Track 3
when only 1 service runs at 33 they use track 3.
the port authority's info blurb at the time that wtc was built supports Wayne's comments. i believe that the new platform area was built deeper than the h&m platform. otherwise, the new platform area would have had to be built across the old trackbed. does anybody know if there was a steep climb from the tunnel to the old h&m platform?
i havent figured out how they removed all the old hardware after installing the new without disrupting service.
the modern "platform" you see on the right side after you exit the current wtc station includes a maintenance elevator, some electrical equipment, and a bunch of puddles.
I remember outbound PATH from Hudson Terminal - once the tracks gathered into one, there was a downgrade, not that steep, before we reached the Yerkes tube stretch; not that much different than what's there today. I didn't get much of a look coming inbound. All the grease and water sprayers in the world wouldn't have muffled that curve. They're pretty quiet there these days (leaving WTC), maybe they use different grease. The only hoot you get is at the reverse (left-right) curve. The "K" cars were WAY noisier than the PA-1s, just as bad as Redbirds and other IRT cars, except they did the PATH hoot rather than the IRT metallic screech.
wayne
There is a photo at the WTC on the 107th floor observatory taken during the early stages of construction, and the PATH tubes were indeed unearthed and in plain sight.
When the WTC was being built, there was a wooden walkway along the West Street side of the complex, similar to the type of walkway you see all the time near construction sites, but what a view! I can still remember the tubes themsleves basically running like an el train, since the pit was dug out two to three levels below the train level, and the tubes were being propped up on `A' shaped supports. The walkway came right up to the excavation pit (If I remember right, there was one spot where it actually crossed the pit near the Vescey Street edge of the complex) and when you were looking down, It was about a 90 to 100 foot drop.
Interesting thread.
I had heard (though this is before my time) that the PA thought originally of building the WTC on the East River, near the fish market. But the possibility of the Hudson Terminal property becoming available sold them on the Hudson River idea.
Essentially Lindsay forced the PA's hand in taking over the H&M. He refused to grant the PA any street closures in the Hudson Terminal area unless they took over the tubes. At that time the City was pondering a takeover in order to use the 6th Avenue H&M line in lieu of extending the IND express tracks (which was done about 1968 or so) from 34th to W4th St.
The city would either have run dedicated trains from Midtown to WTC without stopping in NJ or simply abandoned the trans-Hudson tunnels.
A PA study in the mid-1960s considered either a new Manhattan tunnel joining the uptown and downtown H&M segments, or extending the H&M from Jersey City through Bayonne and into Staten Island.
I thought the PA took over the H&M from bankruptcy in 1962, when Robert Wagner was still mayor.
And construction of the WTC was already underway when Lindsay took office.
BAH! The idea of the H&M extended to Bayonne dated all the way back to McAdoo...the idea being that way the CNJ terminal would have been served. Now, the REAL reason the PA took over the H&M was that Rockefeller basically gave them the deal that if the PA took over and made improvements to the H&M, New York State wouldn't stand in the way of the WTC construction, PLUS guarantee that New York State would rent space in the new complex [which is why to this day, EVERY NYS office is down at the WTC...]. Also New Jersey would guarantee the so-called "Aldene Plan" where NJ would let the CNJ close their terminal,and re-route their trains into Newark; and let the PRR and Erie shut their last ferries down, giving a new flood of customers for the 'new' PA run H&M. [plus, of course, the all-important subsidies...]. Also, the PA was given the guarantee that this would be the ONLY time that they would do this sort of thing...which is why it was/is so hard for the NYC airports to get good access by mass transit...{The PA NEVER wanted to run mass transit, knowing that it is financially a money pit..also the H&M physical plant was in such poor shape at the time...}
Transit is expensive but don't forget roads are just as expensive to build and maintain. Interesting comment on the WOrld Trade Center. I often wondered why the PA built the WTC. Was there a shortage of real estate speculators in New York City at the time?
Hello Lou from Middletown (BTW, I lived in Walkill in 1989 for a short while!)
Your comments are interesting - thanx. But they raise a question. Why would Rockefeller - a known urban developer and builder (as in the 125th Street State office building) - stand in the way of the WTC? It seems to me that that would have been more a Lindsay/home rule thing. Also, plenty of state offices are not in the WTC, ie the Levitt Building (270 Bway, I used to work there).
I could easily see Rocky derailing any Moses plan, but why the PA's? Did he have his own plan for a "World Trade Center"?
You are correct, obviously someone blackmailed the PA into taking over the H&M. They still have no interest in running PATH, that's obvious since it's never been extended or substantially altered (much unlike its other New Jersey counterpart, PATCO). They talked about Plainfield and Newark Airport but of course never did it.
But was it more Lindsay or Rocky? I thought Rocky's real goal was getting Moses out of the TBTA so he could raid the toll revenues to support the Holy Ronan Empire.
Also, I would think that Rocky would have suppported an MTA takeover of the H&M for the purpose of grabbing the 6th Avenue tunnel and abandoning the rest (NYS governors traditionally care little about getting New Jersey commuters into NYC). I believe this was before the nonresident tax.
Would be interested in knowing more.......
One thing you're forgetting....PATH is also used by NYS commuters-granted there weren't a lot of them at that time, but Rockefeller was no dummy either, he knew that the suburbs would move further and further out. Also, don't forget, Rockefeller had SERIOUS aspirations for a certain national office all through the sixties. Also in cooperating with the NJ officials in pressuring the PA, he scored points for the next time he wanted support from them for NY based PA projects..something the current mayor & governor seem to have problems remembering....
Is there anywhere I can get a trackmap or blueprint of Grand Central and/or Penn Station. I want something that shows track detail.
Train Buff Headquarters
There are fine drawings in Wm. Middleton's book on GCT.
I've never been on one of these fan trips, but was it normal for them to make moves on non-electrified track like this?
(Photo credit: Paul Renault collection, TMNY catalog #4999)
(Photo credit: Paul Renault collection, TMNY catalog #5000)
Somehow, in the mid-1970s, these highly unusual charters were possible. But something like you've shown in the two pictures hasn't happened since. I don't think there were any D-Type fantrips between 1980 and 1995 at all. And the ones since 1995 were either special charters not by the ERA (Ford, for their overseas sales winners), Nostalgia Trains sponsored by the Transit Museum, and two or three March of Dimes fundraisers sponsored by the Coney Island Shop.
--Mark
Too bad they were marked 3 not 4, So I can give it to Sea Beach Fred, and the downfall of the SEA BEACH EXP to a very slooooow Local
Well, it might draw the attention of T Broadway West End, since #3 was the old West End number code.
I have two that were taken in 1975 and they have #4 on it. And what is very amazing, great and stupendous about those two picture are that they are running on the Brighton Line. Ha!!. One was taken on 8th Street, the other at Sheepshead Bay. Download to some of various type cars and you will find them. So I'm cool about the whole thing.
If I could ever figure out how to scan and download I found some Black and Whites I took of Brighton Triplex in Astoria around 1955 or 56.
And they carried the #1 on its front, too. Can't you download on the nycsubway.org to the section on illustrated car roster? There are tons of pictures from the R1's to the present time.
I think he meant "scan and *upload*" :-)
-Dave
I have apix of the Triplex 1 on the Brighton Line at my Station Kings Highway, with a R 1-9 in the forground
Damn it, Bob. I was just thinking of that when I honed in on this message. I have that pix too and was going to send it to you. It does not have Coney Island, but Brighton Beach on its front and it was taken in 1970. Is that the one you have?
The pix I have was taken off this website on BMT Cars, Triplex. My brother commented a few weeks ago here, he said it must have been a fam trip, because he can t remember the trains being so clean.
The only positive thing about the Triplexes being retired when they were was that they left the scene before the graffiti epidemic hit. Had they still been running into the mid-70s, and I have no doubt they could have, they would have been victimized as well. They also would have laughed in the face of deferred maintenance, IMHO.
They probably either forgot, or didn't bother, to change the end signs to 1 and the side route signs to "Brighton Exp." - assuming, of course, the side signs were set to "Sea Beach Exp." to begin with.:-)
Too bad you missed Glenn's NY Div. ERA slide show. It included several more shots of this ERA event.
Mr t__:^)
I go to 168st at 9:40, wait until 10:10, and the 110B is nowhere to be seen! I go to 207st on the 1/9, take the Bx12, and there it is in the yard! What's going on?! I have not even seen this thing in revenue service since 1997 on the A! Why is it that every time I try for the 110 anything, it's not running! Once waited at Fulton St for 2 hours for the 110a, and Chambers st. for 2.5 hours for the 110B. It's just plain annoying! To top it off, the 142s weren't being tested today! Are clear, sunny days bad for new trains? Am I the only one here who hasn't been on the 110s yet?
No you aren't. So far, I have been searching for the R110b as well as you have. I have seen in it revenue service once in 98. However, on my last Railfan Trip, I never saw anything but the A and C's normal equipment(R32,R38,R44). However, my Friend said she saw it. Her exact words."Paul I saw this new looking A Train yesterday(saturday) It had an electric sign, and the front where the Train Operator was was black, and in the Cab the controller was slide controlled." But don't take my word 4 it. Ask an A line M/M.
I have seen the R-110Bs a few times, but haven't ridden on them. Once on the A at Hoyt-Schermerhorn; almost boarded but decided to wait for R-38s; once at 207th St. as our train pulled in; since it was a train of R-38s, I stayed on it during its layover. The last time was at W. 4th St. on the C in October of '98.
I've never been on the R-110s or even seen them (I've seen pictures of them) and I ride the subway fairly often (at least once a week).
i think i know who some of you will vote for ....!!
also will there still be some redbirds left this fall ??
Most of the redbirds will still be left in fall. I have no opinion on the worst subtalker-poster.
thats good because i want to re shoot 2 4 5 6 7 irts
with the last of the redbirds !!
Definitely won't have problems with the 7. So difficult to get new cars there, they probably won't get around to putting anything there until the end of next year. Ever try doing a railfan video of riding the inside of a car? On the 7 or the 6, with the blinking lights. My favorite part of the redbirds, though now only the R-36s.
i block off the glare with dark cloth and shoot with an extended
wide lens thru the front railfan window ! 8 MM SONY TR 86 .0.6 lux
the two reasons why most subtalkers would nominate me
is because they hate these three words the most !!
RAILFAN-WINDOW-VIDIEO-.............!!
I nominate los angeles rail system (salaamallah) as the #1 worst subtalker-poster, with robertjohnson (aka Subway_Crash.....) as #2 worst. Nobody else comes even close.
only one nomination from the transverse-cab-car-club....
not bad !! subway crash is unique in his handle etc...
south ferry votes for B.B.Q. (pork) i second that nomination !
glad to hear the redbirds will be ready for five hour re-shoots
on RAILFAN-WINDOW-VIDIEO-!!
You must want to nominate me to distance yourself from your IQ, the same as that of a bottle of barbecue sauce, second only to our resident childish scorekeeper.
south ferry was the one who coined the word B.B.Qs pork !!.. etc.......& i thought you were using killfile !!
you could have hid behind it like you said you did !! ........................ Check this out south ferry !! ..
two nominations for you and only one for me !! i loose the election !!...........( oh well !! ) ...........YOU WIN ...!!!
No, check out all the people who have you on killfile, I guess I should go back to it.
You have the mind of salami, that's why I call you Salami the Subway Pornographer. I post nothing against you for a long time, and decide to take you off killfile for that reason and you decide to start up again.
Now, who said that Salami and his damnable presence was not the reason for the killfile?
you win the electtion ""mr baloney" as being the # 1 worse subtalker !! then just like these people in office get mad !!
at least i was a good sport about it losing the # 1 worst sutalker election !! ( what a poor sport you are )
i dont know why you have to start overeating your pork salami in your fridge - hope you have a cold beer to
wash that down with !! make sure to invite hanks wife sally she has him 100% henpecked !!!! she seens to be more
your type any way !! ...................... peace !!
But you recently said that you did not want to be involved in a subtalker contest of any kind. I do not understand.
Peace,
ANDEE
Sallam has the mental flexibilty of a brick wall. Read the posts, they're self-explanatory. That's why he's #1 on my KILLFILE list. Subway_Crash may become #2.
Funny, in one way they're almost exactly alike - can't find (or use) the Shift key on the keyboard.
So Sallamallah is the #1 worst subtalk poster of the year.
Dan: I hope for Mr. Pigs sake that that does it, but I have a sneaking suspicion that this will go on and on.
That's why we have to stop these threads. He clearly seems to live on the antagony that he causes. We need to cut off his food supply at the source.
If this topic is to continue, it is to continue via e-mail.
So, put him in your KILLFILE. Since you don't see his posts in the index once you put him in, you are less likely to read his garbage and respond to it, which tends to inflame him yet again. An e-mail suggestion will either kill the thread, or fill your e-mail box with tons of trash. This you do not need. I once tried e-mailing him with a polite suggestion. I got back a massive replay in the same style he posts with, putting me down, etc. I promptly put the message in the trash, and never heard from him again.
The KILLFILE has given me hours of SubTalk bliss.
................. you know...... i just do not understand !!....... i lose the election for # 1 worst subtalker-poster &
and was a good sport about it !! why all the anger and rage over a subtalker in the house election ??
my goodness some of you take this forum way to serious...!!!
i like to loosen up a little bit disagree with out declaring killfile WORLD WAR THREE 3 ..!!!
like putting down the handle subway_crash_ etc..... and that nice man """"heypaul""""
it is his handle and a few of you fly off your handle .......( if you know what i mean ) ..........
some of you must live miserable lives out there!! if i lived in my birtthplace new york i would be proud of
my subway system ................( oh well i lose the election !! ) ...................
I will NEVER nominate ANYONE as worst SubTalk poster of this year or any other year, for that matter, but this I DO wish, that you guys would STOP FIGHTING among yourselves! Enough is enough!
Maybe I should start posting my Subway Vomit Tales...
wayne :ogt
Well, we already know about Sept. 11, 1973.:-) It's still a classic, IMHO.
Wayne: I'm at my wits end, too, over this matter. I'm close to kill-=filing the Big Salami. He seems to thrive on getting us pissed off. I enjoy my other colleagues' threads too much to have one or two dorks ruin it for me.
.........you can start first with spelling someones name right for a change !! also most of you white males piss yourself off
and especially when things dont go your way !!..... as far a being at your wits end stop eating so much big-pork-salami......
typical you have zero respect for others with different views etc.... then have the nerve to throw stones at someone else !!
i did not know subtalk was for white males only !! ........... i guess thats where i made my mistake !!
Where in hell's name did race enter the picture? As far as I know Salaam no one has made reference to your race, and as far as I'm concerned I don;t give a good God Damn about what race you are. I'm only concerned withthe fact that you seem to enjoy pissing us all off. \You are negative to the extreme and from now on I will have nothing, and I mean nothing to do with you. You are history Mr Big Salami
WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT RACE? And for all you know I could be black - after all, my father's family DID come from Jamaica, BWI. In fact you don't even know if I'm red, yellow, green, blue, brown, grey, purple or orange! The only thing that upsets me is that WE CAN NOT SEEM TO STOP FIGHTING WITH ONE ANOTHER! I don't give a rat's ass about RACE!
Jesus (AND The Prophet Mohammed) said: LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.
PEACE be with you and STOP FIGHTING!
Wayne
mr wayne i have no ill will aganst you please do not take this personal as i was not rerfering to you at all .....
as far as ( some ) others who know who they are etc..... remember i said what it seems like what i last posted to me !!
as usual i have to resort to protect muyself from multi- type-attacks, etc... and racist e mail as well .........................
i am very good at reading between some of these white male types who have this sick idea in thier head
and it is total madness these shoes are meant to fit others and not you .......... if you would like contact my
email and i will explain further but not here !! ( peace ) to mr wayne slant /40 ..........
If this is a church,
may the Holy Pirmann
....and Pirmann only
rule.
#4 Sea Beach Fred:
I have only seen one of Big Salami's messages but the example I saw which disgusted me is probably typical of the person. Why doesn't someone take him down to Coney Island to the N.Y. Aquarium and put him in the shark tank.
BMTJeff
it is typical of some of you who believe this is a white male forum only and by those rules only...........
then some of you want to tell some else about spelling and cant and will not spell someones name corectly .......
then these racist attacks on someones name like persons who overload or "" pig out"" on pork-salami etc....
then you post how some one shoud be murdered by a shark tank ?? ...... first spell someones name right,
before you commit first degree murder !!! not just to the sick subtalker poster who posted such garbage !!!
I've already taken care of that. The problem is people continue to respond to him thinking it's possible to engage in meaningful discourse with it.
tie goes to the runner.................... mr. pig....!! .......... i loose the election .....!!.......... thanks anyway ............
you win the electtion ""mr baloney" as being the # 1 worse subtalker !! then just like these people in office get mad !!
at least i was a good sport about it losing the # 1 worst sutalker election !! ( what a poor sport you are )
i dont know why you have to start overeating your pork salami in your fridge - hope you have a cold beer to
wash that down with !! make sure to invite hanks wife sally she has him 100% henpecked !!!! she seens to be more
your type any way !! ...................... peace !!.........election is over ...
Come on Pigs, admit it----Some of what the Big Salami says is actually funny to the point of being ridiculous. He is just pulling your chain. I find it sort of funny but you don;t seem to. Just ignore it. I know where you're coming from, and so does Hank, Paul Bob, Steve and the rest of us. Maybe it's time to put the killfile back to work.
gee!!.... at least i was a good sport about losing the # 1 worst subtalker poster winner nomination and election .....
as for your... ""baloney""... i dont eat any cold cuts they are made out of......( hint ) ............PORK .!!
Yea, He can be amusing, can't he?
Peace.
ANDEE
EVER HEAR OF HEBREW NATIONAL????
Sure have. They make all-beef hot dogs, IIRC. Kosher to boot.
no they are not kosher
kosher dogs are listed as such with a - k - u or similar symbol ..... issac gells shofar best kosher hebrew national ...........etc........
i know because i do not eat ( PIG -HOG ) ...........( hint........ hint ......) .....
shofar kosher dogs and kosher foods etc............ are served at the penn station in newark downstairs ............
by the way who won the election for worst subtalker - poster ?? did i hear a loud............OINK...??......!!.................!
To the Big Sal: It is time to get of Pigs of Royal Island's case once and for all. It is doing nothing but causing hard feelings and anger within the ranks.
I like Sabrett myself, although I'm not sure if they are Kosher. Hebrew Nat'l are a close second.
Wayne
a vote.......... and a fair election for worst subtalker-poster etc........guess that was too much to ask for !!
as for sabrett dogs are they approved for KOSHER like issac gells best kosher and shofar hebrew national is ??
i never heard of a brand of kosher hot dogs as sabrett.......
i have heard of kowalski sausage.- made in hamtramick michigan....made from 100% ........PORK.......!!!
Kielbase can be made from beef, pork, or a combination of the two.
Any kielbase that comes from Hamtramck 48212 MI (that is the correct spelling) -OR- Greenpoint 11222 NY for that matter has to be The Genuine Article.
I'm wondering if Sabrett franks are a NYC regional item; Hebrew National is available country-wide (includes California). Perhaps that's why you haven't seen them out your way. Some of the street vendors sell Sabrett.
BTW the vendor at 34th Street Bayonne station on HBLR during the opening day was selling Shofar hot dogs - Kosher for sure, but he had them in the drink a little too long - they were tasty, but mushy.
Wayne
they cook them ( at the penn station at newark ) on some kind of rotating metal hot dog cooker roller
of some type anyway....... most of my teeth are gone so they were not too soggy but i know what you mean...
we have a wholesale wherehouse maybe you have it there sams club or cosco club ( membership only )....
they sell """steamed hebrew national kosher and kosher polish dogs "" you can get them there also !
also what do you think of these nasty threads against me .......seems as thgough i flushed them out of killfiles...
and i lost the election of worst subtalker-poster etc......... and these nuts still insist on mispelling my name.........
i dont eat ""pig " & ""pork"" made salami & cold cuts !! they are so dammed nasty like _some_
subtalker(s).................not all just a few idiots .........you know what i mean ........my name has never been "" salami""
Hebrew National hot dogs ARE kosher; so are Shofar. Sabrett's are not, although they do produce an all-beef product as well as one with pork (and, I think, chicken) in it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
you got that right mr. mouse !! when i was in atlanta kosher was hard to come by ! ( thanks ) ....
Now THAT's Kosher!
wayne
"You have the mind of salami, that's why I call you Salami."
Salami? That's cute but that reises an interesting question. If we use the 'Killfile' for this gentleman, are we then playing "Hide the Salami"?
........baloney to you too.!!!!!!!!........... PORK- baloney!! .........tarin-eee dude-ee.....!!!!
hide behind your killfile coward !
I can't resist hitting the rim shot button on that. Touche!
Pigs: You broke your promise not to respond to him. Since you read me the riot act when I responded to him, I'll give you a taste of your own medicine. Don't let him agitate you. Ignore him completely. I've noticed that when he posts now there are no responses except you and maybe me. If he becomes completely offensive, we won;t need a killfile to send him away. He will go by himself or he will change his attitude because he will be talking to himself.
so you did not hide behind the killfile either !! also i still get many responses not everyone on subtalk is a nut !
any way i lost this election and i took it like a man !! can the same be said of some of you ???
Since election day has cometh early,
put some BBQ sauce on Pigs of Royal Island
for the WORST Sub-Talker.
Trying to force the award on someone else to prevent your own inevitable nomination?
Subtalkers like me 10
Idiots like you 0
If you can do it, so can I.
i agree with you south ferry B.B.Q. ( pork ) is the worst poster
& subtalker hands down !!!!!!!
No. In the same style of thinking that resulted in tearing down the 3rd Ave el BEFORE the 2nd Ave subway was built, NYCT will scrap all redbirds before the R142s are available for service.
question ....... if the redbirds are gone and the 142 are not in service or have not all been delivered then __________
______________________________________??? fill in the blank !!....??
And you know this how, exactly? What about the TA's plan to store most of the redbirds at various facilities around the system, keeping them ready for use if needed? I suspect you picked up your info. from reading some of the 'pillow-talk' between Archie & Veronica.
the subject heading of your post is very accurate...
lol, Touche!
The fact is Alex posted a statement that was totally contrary to the facts. You may appreciate fantasy being put forth as fact. I do not.
You know instead of being so mean and nasty in you responses to people in regards to them posting incorrect information, you could just give them the correct information politely and leave it at that. But no, your knowledge may be considerable but your meaness shows through. Why don't you tone down your "I know everything rhetoric?"
ANDEE
I think the implication that a person gets his facts from Archie Comics is far less mean-spirited than the original poster who tells lies and berates and belittles an entire organization and its dedicated people and uses lies and inuendo to do it. I think he or she is the truly mean spititted individual. However, if you disagree, chose not to read my posts.
...or Betty and Reggie:-)
I was thing more in lines of either Veronica's Dad or Big Moose
I was thinking more in lines of either Veronica's Dad or Big Moose
An unusall thing I rember about the Culver Shuttle is how the annicator worked at the 13 Avenue Stop. I used to use this station alot because I had an Aunt that lived in near by during the early 1970's. There where two annicators located on the mezzaine level, only one of which worked. The side which used to be for Manhattan Trains no longer worked since the line was single tracked. Only Southbound Annicator worked which used to read From City. The sign would ring and also light up. If you did not get on at this station reguarly or Fort Hamilton Parkway you could easly miss the train even though the annicator rang. If you where waiting for a train going toward Ditmas Avenue, you where ok. The annicator would ring as soon as the train left Fort Hamilton Parkway and the passengers would go up to the platform level to board the train. But if you where waiting for a train going toward 9 Avenue, you had a problem. The annicator worked in reverse. You would hear the train come into the station or not hear it at all. Sometimes the train would stop in the middle of the platform because the 13 Avenue station had an exit on the southend for 14 Avenue. The train would then pull out and when the train pulled into Fort Hamilton Parkway Station the annicator would ring at 13 Avenue causing passengers to go up to the platform level only to see the train leaving Fort Hamilton Parkway heading toward 9 Avenue. The passengers would often curse and complain to the railroad clerk only to have the clerk explain that it was broken. Most people thought that was true but I and a few others where able to figure out how it all worked.
I recall those BMT annunciators too. They used a piece of perforated tin stamped "TO CITY" or "FROM CITY" and were backlit with light bulbs and a buzzer (or later, a bell).
My understanding is that they worked through the 3rd rail. The annunciator was hooked up to a dead section of 3rd rail that was opposite the actual energized rail. As the train approached the shoes on the train would contact the dead rail and send current through it to the annunciator.
Simple low tech though deadheads also triggered it!
Can anyone confirm/correct my assumption on how it worked?
From my recollection of how the annunciators worked on the Brighton line, this would be correct. In fact, by watching the pattern of light flashes and listening to the buzzes, one could determine how many cars on the train and what type of cars they were. In my high school days, I could differentiate between the newer cars (R-27s) and the Standards by the pattern, and if the train was only 6 cars, it was a "Banker's Special". (This was at Neck Road station around 1960). Midday expresses which ran on the local tracks using Triplexes also had their unique pattern.
-- Ed Sachs
So that's why those old things sometimes blinked 4 times or 8 times when they were working on the J line years ago. IIRC, they still exist on the elevated portion of the A in Queens, but they've been painted over and of course, they don't work.
According to this new pamphlet I got on an LIRR Train, It said LIRR was currently looking 4 people to fill these positions. Asistant Conductor, and General Foreman and Locomotive Engineer. This was back in Febuary. However, Can one like myself get in as a Locomotive Engineer? If so, What are the Requirements? Same as Getting in as a Motorman?
Wish the requirements for loco engineers were same as for motormen;although duties and rerspnsibilities (in LIRR's case) are very similar..assuming the LIRR is still under the FRA as alegal RR engineer training is far more intensive and must result in issuing of a federal engineers license. I was a motorman and later an MRL engineer ... so have been in both types of railroading. A card carrying engineer from one railroad can be hired by another..
I am a Fan of the new Genesis Locomotives. The first time I saw one is on Amtrak's Auto Train from Lorton Virginia, to Sanford, Florida, Train number 53. I was wondering, when NY gets the Acela, should that ever happen, Will Amtrak keep their Genesis locomotives? How long do you expect them to keep the Locomotives? I only ask, because I hope to operate a Genesis. Also do you necessarily need to go through another RR to go to Amtrak. I called Amtrak once and thats what they are getting at.
I've seen them at Croton-Harmon on both MN and AMtrak. The can't get rid of them in non-electrified territory !!!!
The Genesis locomotives are a common sight at Union Station here in Chicago, Amtrak's major hub. Seems they're in use on almost every line.
I was actually once up in the cab of a Genesis, when Amtrak had an "open house" at Union Station for the premeire of their newest fleet of bilevel Superliner cars. The cab was very high-tech, with several laptop-style LCD display screens and hardly an analog control in sight.
The Superliner coaches themselves were also very impressive; their standard coach seats are far better than any first-class seat I've ever seen on an airline. Very comfortable, and a far cry from Amtrak's reputation as sort of a Greyhound-on-rails for those who can't afford airline tickets. This type of comfort combined with high-speed rail will hopefully convince people that there is a viable alternative to choked expressways and sardine-can airplanes.
And for those of you on the East Coast who don't often see the massive bilevel Superliners, I have to say that a huge train of brand-new Superliners being pulled by a couple of Genesis locomotives is quite an incredible sight.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Amtrak's Genesis engines are used everywhere except in Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut. Why they're not used here, is a mystery to me. I'm not a fan of the F40 with its ugly bulldog nose and its really loud motors. The Genesis engines are so much nicer and it's a shame that Amtrak doesn't think much of Hartford-Springfield riders to assign them here. Hartford-Springfield service is bad enough as it is.
It most likley has to do with the electrifacation and engine servicing facilities in Boston and New Haven. Its sort of isolated from the rest of the system and the P40's are needed on heavier trains further west.
And with the Geniesisses, it'd be even worse - those things are awfully slow. No, they're worse than that, they're painfully slow. I was on a MN train to Croton Harmon that was pullled by one. Sitting and listening to the prime mover wind up for 5 secs before moving andpulling out of the station at a waking pace is no fun. Or as one person pointed out "GE's load slowly"
As for Hartford-Springfield, I'm almost conviced Amtrak wants to kill it off. The level of service sure indicates it. Anyone know of any other shuttle trains in the US that require reservations? 2 south from hartford do - the Vermonter, and another one that terminates *at New Haven*
I gave up on Amtrak, they're 30 min engine chanmges, 60mph running, and often irritating employees. When I need to go home, it's either bus to Metro-North, or my Harley. I'm tired of arriving 30 min late, being treated like a kid, and sitting at New Haven while they go off into the yard to find a locomotive (There's been maybe 1 or 2 times I've taken this trai where they have everything set up and ready to go, normally, they have to fetch the loco out of the yard)....
The bus to new haven is somewhat slower (but only because of the layover there - the running time is almost identical), but MN has the bonus of getting there on time. Often early.
I could rant on and on about how much Amtrak sucks, but I'm sure everyone else has their horror story too. I just hope the replacement isn't as brain dead.
Yep, GE's DO load slowly.
Amtrak got 20 of the P32BWH's a few years back -- these were the ones that looked exactly like freight locomotives and had a very snazzy paint scheme. They assigned a few of them to the "San Diegan" that runs from Los Angeles to San Diego (and also San Luis Obispo). That was the end of the trains running on time for awhile....so they were reassigned elsewhere and EMD F40PH's brought back. Trains started running on time again.
Amtrak bought GE "Genesis" units to replace almost all the F40PH's -- but not on the west coast! They bought 21 EMD F59PHI's for the coast runs, as the frequent stops and more demanding schedules require somthing that can keep a train on time.
Weren't the F59's bought with 503(b) money from California, Washington, and Oregon? Most of them are lettered 'Amtrak California', from what I've seen.
-Hank
The original bunch was bought by the State of California -- those are the ones lettered "Amtrak California" and they are numbered 2001-2009. California also funded (earlier) two of the twenty GE P32BWH's, which came delivered as 500-519. The 501 and 502 came with "Caltrans" logos in front of the cab numbers on each side, and right after the California Amtrak F59PHI's were delivered, they were repainted also to California Amtrak #2051 and 2052 (leaving 501 and 502 blank in the Amtrak roster).
On the subsequent order of F59PHI's, Amtrak bought sixteen outright, and the Stete of Washington "donated" five. The Amtrak units are 450-465 and are painted in a blue/silver scheme that, up until recently, did not resemble anything else in the system (in pattern nor color). However, recent deliveries of the "Surfliner" cars for the LA-San Diego/Santa Barbara service gave the locomotives something to match.
The Washington units are 466-470, and they are painted in the same pattern as the Amtrak units but are done in silver/green/brown to match the "Talgo" trainsets that the State of Washington also put into service between Portland (Oregon), Seattle, and Vancouver (BC).
Wasn't there some discussion about CT opns of M-N or Shoreline taking over that run ? Would seem to make since as very few long distant customers us it, i.e the go the shore route from GCT of Manhattan West side to Albany.
BTW, found a NYNH&H railbuff site from their newsletter "Shoreliner". In it was an article about NY & NE RxR and service to Boston via Hartford & Putman CT. Also a shot of a steamer on the "Air Line" route via Middletown ... it was just down the raod a piece from Cobalt and therefore very close to where I grew up.
P.S. Last newsletter is Fall '97 so maybe they're no more :-(
Mr t
Amtrak won't get rid of the Genesis locomotive because they are brand new. There are 3 different models, P32 Dual Modes used for hudson service, P40's which are re-built B40-8's and the P42's which are new -9 locomotives. The locomotive that will be leaving is the venerable F-40PH ::removes imaginary hat:: and I for one will miss them.
The P40's are NOT rebuilt B40-8's. They are a model unto themselves, built brand new as such.
What in the Wide World of Sports is a B-40-8?
Although I complained about their boxiness when new, I too will miss the F40's
dave
Its the locomotive that some of the P-40's are based off of. I think it is the set numbered in the 800's or 700's and there are like 100 of them. I remember that I saw a roster on www.hobokenterminal.com and listed the locomotives from 800-899 (or 700-799) not as P40's, but as B40-8P's and it listed them as conversions. I can't find the roster anymore, but I have a printout of it at home and i will get it at the earliest possible time. I know that the P42's are based off the Dash-9 design not the Dash-8.
To answer your question Dave, a B40-8 is the heaviest and most powerful Bo-Bo (8 axle) freight locomotive is common use. It has 4000 horsepower and unlike the more popular C40-8(W)'s it has 2 fewer axles in which to distrabute the same weight. These locomotives have very large axle loads and are restricted from many industrial and secondary tracks. For example no train crossing the Delair bridge can have more than 2 B40-8's. The B40-8 is built by GE and the -8 is to signify its and 80's degisn. GE started with the U boats (60's), then went to the -7's (not much better), then the -8's (very popular) and now they have converted to the -9's.
Are there tractioin motors on all eight axles, or are some of them load bearing, like the "fifth" axle on an FL-9?
Again, I'm sorry, Its 4 axles each with a traction motor.
1. NONE of the Amtrak locomotives are "conversions". They were all built as the Amtrak locomotives that they are.
2. The 800 series numbers only 47 units -- 800 to 846. At least two, 819 and 831, have been totally destroyed in wrecks.
3. NONE of Amtrak's locomotives, nor any B4-8's are "8-axle" locomotives. They are FOUR axle. A Bo-Bo wheel designation means two powered axles on each truck -- total of four powered axles and nothing else.
Just for information on the Amtrak roster to save everyone from hunting it down:
1-130 are P40 Genesis
192-199 are GP40TC's ex-GO Transit
200-415 are F40PH's many gone
500, 503-519 are P32BWH's 501 and 502 became Calif. Amtrak 2051-2052
600-614 (?) are E60CP's not sure how many
700-715 (?) are P32 dual modes
800-846 are P32 Genesis 819 and 831 wrecked/written off
901-902, 904-953 are AEM-7's 900 and 903 wrecked/written off
There are at least 3 Genesis engines that were totaled. 2 were lost in the Sunset wreck in Louisiana. Another broke in half after hitting that steel truck in Illinois. The 2 AEM7 were involved in the Chase wreck, I think.
Numerous F40 have been converted to 'Cabbage' cars. That is, all the guts were ripped out, save the controls, and it now serves as a baggage car/MU control cab, like the LIRR's FAs, sort of. Renumbered to 90xxx where xxx is the original number.
-Hank
No, Hank -- there was only ONE of the Genesis units involved in the Sunset Limited/bridge incident in Louisiana. That was the 819. There were three locomotives involved in that incident; the other two were F40's (361 was one of them).
The 831 was the Illinois victim.
And yes, the 900 and 903 were the ones involved int he Chase, MD incident.
I believe in regards to the Chase wreck, 900 disintegrated upon collision and only 1 truck was recovered, and 903 was damaged beyond repair. They were the two motors on the ATK train. Of the 3 CRR diesels I believe all were scrapped.
Were the engines damaged in the Silver Spring wreck repaired?
Units 900 and 903 were NOT repaired. There was nothing left of the frames -- most of the both units basically disintegrated in the collision.
Usually if the frame of a locomotive is intact and not bent after a collision, it might get rebuilt. If it's bent, forget it.
The original bunch of the AEM-7's was 900-946 (47 units). In the early 1990's, five additional units were ordered (947-951) plus two additional units which were to be replacements for 900 and 903; these became 952 and 953.
No no, I am asking about the January '96 (i think) wreck in silver spring, on the CSX track, between MARC and the Capitol limited. All the fatalities were on MARC but the Amtrak engines took a real blow. Somewhere I have pictures...
Yes, I am almost positive that those units were repaired. First of all, only the F40 was involved in the collision and the only damage would have been from fire, which I think only gutted the control cab that hit it. Well, now that I think aboot it, the F40 may have been scrapped due to its age, but the P40 was fine. So to answer your question, maybe, but not because of the extent of the damage.
Whoops, I was thinking of 8 wheels. All I can say is that one subset of Genesis locomotives were listed as B40-8P's. I just need to find the proof.
I found it! Here on the Amtrak Photo Archive.
"General Electric built these 4000hp locomotives to start replacing the EMD F40s. Designated by GE as model AMD-103 ( AMtrak Diesel - 103mph ) they were called the Genesis series since they featured many improvements and according to the the builder plate they are designated Dash 8-40BP. They are commonly referred to as P40. Based (mechanically at least) on the popular Dash8-40B and Dash 8-40BW freight locomotives, these units bring a new face to the Amtrak roster. Numbered 800-843, were built and delivered from April-December 1993."
On the builders plate they are classed B40-8P. Strange I never thought they made a B40-8W freight engine.
But as Steve said, they are not conversions. They are new locomotives built for the purpose. Calling something a "conversion" implies that it was built as one thing and converted to something else. Calling it an "adapted design" would be more accurate.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[... NJTransit Executive Director Jeffrey Warsh ... also revealed broader ambitions for the Hudson-Bergen line. He told the Advance that he hope the line will eventually "go over the Bayonne Bridge and all the way down to Tottenville. Then someday over to Middlesex
County." ...]
One of my BusTalk friends has me on the distribution of "Tri-State Trans. Campaign" elect. newsletter. Doug the BMT Man mentioned he had heard of NJTransit plans to extend HBLR South of Bayonne to SI ... this seems to make it more then just a rumor. I'm also aware of plans to begin some new bus service from SI. So, maybe the NJT's expansion plans are getting infectious ? There's always hope.
Mr t__:^)
On 4.20.2000 (Thursday) about 6:45 p.m. I was at Liberty State Park station of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail when a bus came through southbound between the light rail and the parking lot with a destination sign "Staten Island." I think it said route 144. I could not see the name of the operator painted on the side, as it moved fast. Who runs the service? Was it via Bayonne or Goethals?
My 9/98 SI bus map says X17 & X31 use the Goethals Bridge on their way to Manhattan ... guess I need to update my supply the next time I go to 130 Livingston Plaza.
Mr t__:^)
One of the future plans for the Hudson-Bergen LR line is a run over the Kill Van Kull to Staten Island. This is certainly WAY down the list as this would obviously involve elements of PATH and/or MTA so any connect with NYC would become a political football.
The first thing to get completed (and it' almost there) is the Hoboken Mall connection.
A nice but unlikely plan would be to extend the HBLR into the Meadowlands. It would give alot of people the option of leaving their cars at home for Jets/Nets games. That's too far north and out "in-the-sticks" to make the trip cost effective. (The line would be useless when the arenas are closed).
Doug aka BMTman
use the lots as a park and ride..
use the lots as a park and ride.. keep cars out of the city.
It's not too far north, it's too far WEST. The line will run to the Vince Lombardi Service area near the north end of the Turnpike toll zone.
That's the Exchange Place Express. The 144 (and 122) run from SI to Exchange Place. I believe they're a CoachUSA operation now.
-Hank
From what I've read in the Star-Ledger, they are thinking about extending it into Saddle Brook once it is finished at the Vince Lombardi Park and Ride. I think that would be a great idea, since coming down 17 to the Licoln or Holland Tunnels is a nightmare!
I'm pretty sure this quote has been mis-attributed. The name may be right, but the executive director is for 21st Century Rail Corp, NOT NJT.
-Hank
As others have noted here extending the HBLR over the Bayonne Bridge to anywhere on Staten Island would involve the governments of both states, NYC and the PANYNJ. Don't expect to see trolley cars on Richmond Avenue anytime soon.
04/27/2000
Someone said here about HBLR going over the Bayonne Bridge to Staten Island ending up in Tottenville. Tottenville!,what purpose would that serve? If this wild dream would come true light rail should utilize the abandoned Arlington Branch to St.George with connection to Staten Island Railway and buses. Of course the grade coming off the bridge would be too steep and would call for some sort of round about routing. But this is just a wild dream, like a one seat ride from JFK airport to midtown Manhattan!
Bill Newkirk
Does anyone have an update status on the 142's?
Any problems detected?
Major or minor?
On Friday I need to travel from East 73rd and York down to the WTC around lunchtime. Barring any GOs it seems the best way to go is to take the 4 from 77th down to Fulton - Broadway Nassau, then the uptown A or C to Canal, then a downtown E to the WTC. In the alternative I could take the 4,5 or 6 down to Grand Central, the shuttle to Times Square, then hike on over to catch a downtown E. Any other suggestions? Which of these two alternatives is faster?
Wall st. on 4 is not that far from WTC. It would be the fastest way.
Arti
Fulton is closer, it's a short block away.
My mistake.
Arti
4 or 5 to Fulton is only 1 block away from the WTC.. jsut walk it
"In the alternative I could take the 4,5 or 6 down to Grand Central, the shuttle to Times Square, then hike on over to catch a downtown E."
Or skip the hike over to the E: when you're at Times Square, catch a 1 or 9 to Cortland Street. An all-IRT route, so to speak.
or 4-5 to 14th tran to N-R to Cortland St
Good luck trying to catch a 4 at 77th! Only the 6 stops there (except between 12AM and 5AM).
77th is my station, so I know the possible routes. The fastest is to take the 6 to 59th, then the 4 or 5 to Fulton. If you want to get to the WTC Station, take the 6 to 51st and then take the E. That is faster than shuttling over to Times Square and then taking the E.
Or take the 6 from 77th to 59th St. and take the N or R to Cordlandt Street/WTC. It's probably a little longer trip in terms of time than the E, but whatever train comes will be headed to the right place, while the E at Lexington has to share its trackage with the F.
[The fastest is to take the 6 to 59th]
Actually it would be faster to take it to 42nd as there is a very long way to the express station on 59th.
Arti
The 4 does not stop at 77th during those hours. The 6 does, though.
Take the 6 from 77th to 51st, then transfer for an E and take that to the final stop.
Nick
I agree with a previous post that the best and quickest way would be a 6 to 59th and a 4 or 5 to Fulton Street. Exit at Broadway and walk the one block to Church St..
I think I might be one of the last posters here to respond to this one, but with my experience working in the Wall St/WTC area, I have to also agree that the 4,5 to Fulton and walk one block west IS THE FASTEST way without having to make numerous transfers. The only drawpoint is during rush hours the express segment between 59th St & 14th St will get congested with subway traffic.
It can also be slow going from Union Square to Brooklyn Bridge. Been there, done that.
It's better to change at 42nd because it's just across the platform.
What about 6 to 59Th, and change for the N/R. Its slow but you'll see the new tile work at Canal !!!!
Let's see. From 59th St., 4 stops on the 4 or 5 to Fulton St. vs 13 stops on the N/R to Cortlandt St. I know which train I'd take.:-)
Valid point.
Take the 4 to Fulton and walk west 2 blocks. It's the fastest way. I take the J to Fulton every day to work (2 World Trade Center).
Correction, walk west one block. The 4/5 at Fulton is under Broadway, one block west of Church St and the enterance to 5 WTC. I use the J to Fulton and Nassau, which is 2 blocks east of the WTC.
Is "faster" always "best?" If it's a nice day, take a walk across the park to the IRT stop at 72nd and Broadway. Take the express downtown to Chambers Street, then switch to the local one stop to Cortlandt.
Thanks, everyone. I appreciate the assist.
My suggestion: take the 6 from 77th to Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall. The WTC is a short walk through City Hall Park.(It is on the other side of the Park.)Otherwise- get off at Canal and take the N or R to Cortlandt which is in the mall level of the WTC.
Actually the 6 to the 4/5 is quicker and has a shorter walk. The transfer at 42nd is just across the platform.
I gave him the instructions for the 6 to allow for only 1 or 2 trains rather than 2 or 3 different trains.
In my experience as a Station Agent, many customers will prefer a longer route if it is a one seat ride or has fewer changes of trains.
Some people prefer to stay on the same train, even if it's a local, if it will get them to where they want to go. Nothing wrong with that.
I have a map with some things I know some of you might want like the 2nd. Av. Line and the Culver Shuttle(OPTO with R68s). It also has New Jersey Transit's routes. I also have NJT drawings of the R-142 and R37 cars.
The subway is gross to both daily commuters and tourists. It does not adhere to any kind of schedule and is often times very inconvenient. With rumors of yet another fare increase circulating, New Yorkers are left wondering, where does all the money go. These opinions are addressed in a documentary-esque video (30 min) produced and directed by the founders of a website design company based here in NYC. If anyone out there feels the same way about our subways, you know that its important for this video gain as much exposure as possible. In order to do that, I need your help. If you know of anyone who can get this film out there an circulating about with those influential in our community contact me about how to get ahold of them. The film will air on Thursday, May 4th, 2000 on Manhattan Neighborhood Network, channel 34 at 11 pm.
Was the cameraman on this production named Salaam Allah? If it is, I'd at least expect some railfan window shots...
;-)
That video will be shown on a local cable channel? Good. That is where it belongs. It means that almost noone will see it. I'll bet that whoever shot it did not have the proper permits from the MTA to film in the subways.
If you do not like the subway - take the bus or walk.
It may be disgusting at times, off schedule many times, it is still
OURS (NYC's I mean). At $1.50 it is still one of the best bargins in NYC (or most other major cities for tthat matter).
[It may be disgusting at times, off schedule many times, it is still
OURS (NYC's I mean). At $1.50 it is still one of the best bargins in NYC (or most other major cities for tthat matter).]
You know, it really suprises me that people have become so inured to the wretched, ghetoesque conditions of the subway that they're actually willing to defend them. There's simply no excuse for stations that look like tenement basements, sardine can cars, broken escalators, 19th Century signal systems, wretched musicians, hazardously narrow platforms, trains that have been intentionally slowed down (choke), wheels that need grinding, rails that need alignment, intolerably hot platforms, etc., etc.
[You know, it really suprises me that people have become so inured to the wretched, ghetoesque conditions of the subway that they're actually willing to defend them. There's simply no excuse for
stations that look like tenement basements, sardine can cars, broken escalators, 19th Century signal systems, wretched musicians, hazardously narrow platforms, trains that have been intentionally
slowed down (choke), wheels that need grinding, rails that need alignment, intolerably hot platforms, etc., etc.]
New Yorkers seem to be excessively tolerant of lousy living conditions in general. In other words, it ain't just the subway. You won't find many other places in the good old USA where people are eager to pay in (non-tax-deductible) rent for tiny apartments in dingy old buildings, amounts that in most places would amply cover the mortgage payments on 2,500-sq.ft. houses on sizeable lots. Nowhere else would people put up with grossly expensive, dirty "supermarkets" that sell outdated products. Nowhere else would car owners willing pay parking fees that probably are higher than the car payments.
if people hate the subway.................walk !!
[New Yorkers seem to be excessively tolerant of lousy living conditions in general. In other words, it ain't just the subway. You won't find many other places in the good old USA where people are eager to pay in (non-tax-deductible) rent for tiny apartments in dingy old buildings, amounts that in most places would amply cover the mortgage payments on 2,500-sq.ft. houses on sizeable lots. Nowhere else would people put up with grossly expensive, dirty "supermarkets" that sell outdated products. Nowhere else would car owners willing pay parking fees that probably are higher than the car payments.]
Or as my Mom said once, "Paris it ain't."
Buddy, you got the wrong website.
Who do you work for -- GM? Go peddle your highway lobby L*I*E*S to somebody who will believe them
While one has every right to express his/her opinion about the subway, I can't help but feel that this is also a promotional gimmick for this "website design" outfit, with the subway being the whipping boy in this case. I would really like to see this video, to see how this subject is covered in a half-hour's time.
While one has every right to express his/her opinion about the subway, I can't help but feel that this is also a promotional gimmick for this "website design" outfit, with the subway being the whipping boy in this case. I would really like to see this video, to see how this subject is covered in a half-hour's time.
What subway system are you riding. Granted, there are a few problems that need to be addressed, but looking back 15 years ago, there is no comparison. The TA has definately cleaned up its act. Maybe there should be a website of "NYC Subways, Late '70s and '80s - How it Used to be." After seeing those pictures, then you will really know the meaning of gross, disgusting, as well as filthy.
I have to agree with Far Rockaway A train. As a subway rider on and off from 1970 until 1998 the improvement is amazing! I remember the trains were covered in graffiti, stations and rolling stock were filthy and crime was terrible. The situation today could probably be better, but I dont want to go back to those "god old days".
Sorry, meant to say"good old days". typo error!
Sorry, meant to say"good old days". typo error!
(Maybe there should be a website of "NYC Subways, Late '70s and '80s - How it Used to be." After seeing those pictures, then you will really know the meaning of gross, disgusting, as well as filthy).
The debt increase being what it is, such a website would also describe the subway circa 2010.
Okay, good point. But there have got to be times when you've ridden the subway and there's been a problem with the tracks that you won't find out about because of the inaudible voice on the P.A. system. Or a time when there were so many people in the car that you couldn't breathe. Or a time when you want to travel on the weekends and you have to wait a half hour for a train. Yes, the subway is in a lot better shape than it used to be, but commuters still have to put up with a lot. The video is only promoting a Commuters' Bill of Rights (just like cabbies have). That's all.
If you're going to promote a Commuter's Bill of Rights, that's fine and dandy. But, at the same time, you'll also need to promote the Rules for Riding on the Subway.
It's great to say that commuters have a right to on-time service: keep in mind that most late trains are caused by those same people holding the doors open.
Announcements that can be understood: most can be if you FIRST take off your Walkman's headsets, or quite possibly, SHUT UP and LISTEN.
Clean facilities: where do you think that mess comes from? Transit doesn't put there just to listen to everyone complain.
Half hour waits for trains: personally, I can't remember the last time I waited more than 20 minutes for a train and that was at 3:00 am. If you've waited that long, there was a definite problem - person hit by train (doh, someone else who didn't belong where he was), a derailment (OK that one's on us), police activity (there they go breaking the rules again), or the weather (and if you can do something about that, let me know). If you wait 30 minutes for a train on a regular basis, I would suggest that you get a new battery for your watch.
To read some more about how to behave on the subway, go to How to Ride the Subway
I agree. People should learn how to learn the subway (and it's obvious that you have mastered that art). New York, however, is unfortunately filled with people who don't. And since we can't ban them from the subway, we're stuck with them.
Just out of curiousity. . . have you ever visited any other subway systems around the world?
In the past few years, I've been on two other subways - Toronto and DC.
I liked the TTC - the station platforms were clean and well-lit, the trains were frequent and fast, and the rules were posted everywhere. The station agents and trolley operators were very friendly and helpful. however, the operating personnel that I encountered while riding gave new meaning to annoying, there were no announcements that I can recall hearing, and the station areas other than the platforms were grungy.
The DC Metro, on the other hand, is not all the "Bettertransit.org" people make it out to be. The industrial carpeting in the cars was filthy; in four out of the six stations I used, the escalators weren't working (and those stations are DEEP), and the stations themselves had as much charm as any pre-cast concrete structure I've ever been in (which is to say, not much). The info people were friendly enough, but they only exist on the mezzanine - with no CR on board, tou have to get off the train to ask for help.
L. Monroe:
If you don't like the subway please take a hike and stay off this website. People like you don't belong on this website. Maybe they should produce a "KILLFILE" just for you and others that are like you.
BMTJeff
[If you're going to promote a Commuter's Bill of Rights, that's fine and dandy. But, at the same time, you'll also need to promote the Rules for Riding on the Subway.
It's great to say that commuters have a right to on-time service: keep in mind that most late trains are caused by those same people holding the doors open.]
Make a law, publicize it, enforce it. Until that's done, I don't want to hear any whining!
[Announcements that can be understood: most can be if you FIRST take off your Walkman's headsets, or quite possibly, SHUT UP and LISTEN.]
That one's a laugh. I don't own a Walkman, but while they've improved somewhat over years past I frequently have to strain to understand the announcements.
[Clean facilities: where do you think that mess comes from? Transit doesn't put there just to listen to everyone complain.]
Yeah, right, all those bums put that black grime on the ceilings and tiles! We aren't talking about a few newspapers here, but areas that aren't cleaned/painted/repaired/replaced with sufficient thoroughness or frequency. Some stations that were renovated only a few years ago already look like they haven't been touched in 50--just look at the sorry state of the Astor Place restoration.
[Half hour waits for trains: personally, I can't remember the last time I waited more than 20 minutes for a train and that was at 3:00 am. If you've waited that long, there was a definite problem - person hit by train (doh, someone else who didn't belong where he was), a derailment (OK that one's on us), police activity (there they go breaking the rules again), or the weather (and if you can do something about that, let me know). If you wait 30 minutes for a train on a regular basis, I would suggest that you get a new battery for your watch.]
Hmmm, last time I waited 30 minutes for a train was yesterday--but aside from the Lexington Avenue, which is just plain overloaded, you're right on this one (that particular delay was the result of a police action).
[What subway system are you riding. Granted, there are a few problems that need to be addressed, but looking back 15 years ago, there is no comparison. The TA has definately cleaned up its act. Maybe there should be a website of "NYC Subways, Late '70s and '80s - How it Used to be." After seeing those pictures, then you will really know the meaning of gross, disgusting, as well as filthy.]
True, but as gratifying as the improvement has been, it seems to me we should be comparing subway service to what it *should* be rather than what it was. And for all the improvements, I remember a time when service levels put the current ones to shame, when the system was more, not less, extensive than it is today, and when the fare was 15c.
Hey Monroe: Hit the road! You are not only on the wrong website, you have infuriated a bunch of us. You don't like the subway don't take it.
Hey Monroe: Hit the road! You are not only on the wrong website, you have infuriated a bunch of us. You don't like the subway don't take it. You are entitled to your opinion but I don't like it so I'm giving you my opinion.
try moving to a place where when your car breaks down your only public transportation is ........YOUR.....FOOT.....!!
try moving to a place where when your car breaks down your only public transportation is ........YOUR.....FOOT.....!!
your feet and a good pair of shoes !!!...........WALK !!
That's absolutely brilliant. Did you think about that all by yourself?
Maybe Mr Pigs will go south to shop at Piggly Wiggly. I remember them in LA in the late 50s(piggly Wiggly)
is that right ?? just goes to show that you learn something new everyday !! I saw my first Piggly Wiggly in
Agusta Georgia and the birthplace of James Brown !! i didnt come to the west coast until 1959 to see
the last of the pcc trolley and pacific electric rail system going down.....all i remember was safeway market basket the boys alpha beta vons and shopping bag ralphs fedco gemco el rancho markets
but what stands out in my mind about the southeast Florida and Georgia was the supermarkets named.........
..........WINN--DIXIE.....!!!
L. Monroe, if you feel your cause is so justisfied - contact "The Straphangers Campaign" which is the only real recognized Transit Advocate group in the city. Maybe they can use your video.
I remember once when I was a small child, around the mid-1960's, that I boarding an old Bronx IRT car that had a peculiar separate enclosed front platform with a large wheel mounted in the floor. It was almost like a ship's wheel. It didn't have any function, and since I was just a kid, I played with it while the train was traveling. The car was already quite old at that time. I had never seen one like it, and never saw one again. It was also the only car on that train that was of that type.
Any ideas?
That must've been one of the old converted El cars. The big wheel you saw was the handbrake.
You've just given away your age with that question.
Not being an IRT rider all that much I can't for sure tell you the particular type of car you rode on.
There might be a few railfans out there who can answer this better than I can.
Doug aka BMTman
Could have been a Lo-V
Although I don't really remember hand brakes shaped as a wheel-who remembers those pump-like hand brakes next to the motorman's cab on the R1-9's? When the train was going fast they would start swinging and making a loud metal clanking sound which complemented the other great sounds of those cars such as the bull-pinion gears, the brakes, and the compressor!!!
I do, I do.
You don't mention the line you may have been on. That could be a clue, however my guess is it was a Lo-V as they were the most prominent in the mid-1960's, with the Hi-V's gone. Now, you said it was a unique car, never having seen another. Well, that CAN'T be a Lo-V then, as there were lots of them at this time. Also, the Steinway series was virtually the same. Even if it was a Hi-V, the rest of the train would have been the same. Although they did mix the Hi-V's. You did check out every car on the train! Maybe it was one of those classic subway dreams that pop up on this board frequently.
JCaronetti
Well, this occurred over 30 years ago, so some allowance has to be made. Nonetheless, I am certain that the car was unusual. I was a child, but a regular rider on the Bronx IRT at that time and I had not seen a car like it before, nor did I see one again. It was a bit of a put-together train, with inconsistent equipment. I guess that it was a converted car of some sort, from some other original service. Maybe they were low on equipment that day, and had to dig the car out of some passive reserve.
It is too bad that there is no definitive way to determine what you saw/ rode that day. The IRT was so "pure", almost predictable in what they ran. But they did have few experimentals, like with door windows and air vents. Check that wonderful IRT car fleet book that's on the market currently. That could pull up a memory or two.
JCaronetti
Joe! I think I know what he's referring to!!!!
Remember the Bronx segment of the Third Avenue Elevated that ran until the early 1970's?? Well, in the 1960's, the trains usually consisted of a pair of WF (Steinways) facing north, then a Lo-V trailer, and then a couple more Steinway's facing south.
I'm thinking he is referring to the trailer car that was in the middle of the train -- as it didn't "match" the rest of the train. Most of the trainsets on Third Avenue at the time were set up this way, though there were a few "stadard" type Lo-V control motors that would replace a Steinway every now and then (I remember 5628 being one of them....)
Yeah, it sounds more and more like the cars in question were the Steinways. They looked different enough from the Low & High V's. To me they always had a similar appearance to the H&M cars.
Doug aka BMTman
I do not remember the steinways have a wheel brake, I remember the older Lo Volt s having them, especially the trailers.
As my memory serves me all IRT stock up thru the l9l7 cars (up to 5301) had the wheel brakes irregardless of class. The l924-25 Low-V and Steinway cars would have had the staff brakes... and there were 25 Steinways built in l925 (by ACF #5628-5652) Glad to offer help as I go, but can be mistaken.... the IRT man
Since the World's Fair Lo-Vs were Steinways themselves, the earlier Lo-Vs which were mixed in with them on the 3rd Ave. el had to be Steinways as well, since the Steinways were not compatible with anything else.
Indeed you are right.. the oldercars were Steinways; bodies were identical to Low-V's as well as Fkivvers and some High-V's...the Steinways could be MU'ed with low-v's as air , electric brake and control systems were identical.. bbut Steinways had less horsepower than all other types so were not normally mixed. The trailer cars in those 3rd Ave. sets were Low-V as the Steinways never ran with trailers until their latter days on 3rd Ave.
I would agree as I lived a block and 1/2 away from the "hub" at 149th St. I think the W.F. cars had the hand brake, pump style located in another position, like outside the car body. He may have ridden a lone Lo-V that was stuck in the consist somewhere.
The 1939 cars were unique though and some of my favorites.
JCaronetti
It could have been one of the 1939 Worlds Fair cars the IRT was running on the Third Ave. el by the time they retired in the late 1960s. There were only 50 of those cars made, and they looked like a cross between the Low Vs and the R-10/12s on the side and top, with the front end of a triplex grafted on.
If you ever get a chance to watch the 1968 movie "The Incident" it was shot inside one of those cars. It might jog your memory.
Between you and Steve Hoskins you have the answer. tHe l938 World's Fair cars were compatible with the standard Steinways which looked just like Low-V's. In this case the only standrad body car (as it was different from the rest) was the Low-V trailer in the middle so that has to be the answer. The High-V' were all out of passenger service by l958 (late l958).Good somebody remembers the beloved old IRT stock; this from a 57 year old.Enjoyed many happy rides on them.
It was probably the opposite- A lone low-V on a train of Steinway Worlds Fairs. Did it sound like this?
Recently, while riding the front window of an R-38 'A' going down CPW, I noticed the local and express tracks make a mild dogleg to the left between 96th and 86th, moving slightly closer to the park. As I always thought of the entire stretch along Central Park West to be ramrod straight, this was a suprise.
I speculate that in the late 1920s when the line was being planned, community pressure may have led the city to move the tunnels further from the building foundations and closer to the park below 96th Street, where the real estate along Central Park West becomes considerately more expensive. The fact that the entire line along the park is double decked would suppport this.
Haven't had the opportunity to ride a 38 uptown on this stretch, so I don't know if a similar shift occurs in that direction.
On a related note, it's fun to stand at the uptown end of the uptown platform at 103rd Street/CPW and watch expresses pass by in opposite directions one on top of the other.
At 103rd St., the northbound express track ramps downward, aligning with the southbound express track, to allow the northbound local track to swing over above it to resume the standard four-track alignment at 110th St. Even there, the northbound express track is still ramping upwards halfway through the station. Just as soon as it levels out, the short curtain walls appear between the local and express tracks, and continue past 116th St. The interesting thing there is that there is no crash wall between the express tracks north of 103rd St. before the southbound express track begins to ramp up, and you can see the massive I-beams which were used along that segment.
There is a similar curve on the northbound tracks, and I've long suspected that your reasoning (influence of expensive real estate) is correct.
The local tracks at 86th Street and south are actually underneath the uptown/east side of CPW (based on my counting steps one day last year). The express tracks are likely underneath the sidewalk on the uptown/east side of the street, if not under the park itself. (It sure sounds like the expresses are underneath the park as you walk along CPW, but its probably just the placement of the gratings).
Chuck
Yesterday on the KYW News website, I read that SEPTA has put into
service a fleet of new trains on the Regional Rail Lines. So far, I
haven't seen these new trains. They are not even mentioned on SEPTA's
website. Can anyone confirm this? Also, is there any link where I can
view photos of the new trains? If SEPTA did get new trains, does that
mean that the 1962 Budd Silverliner IIs' days are numbered?
Channel 11 (FOX) had pictures of the cars with Septa head "Mr.O'Leary"
smiling from ear to ear. You tell the new ones by their depressed center doors.
Chuck Greene
As you can see, this post is being written about the new SEPTA Regional Rail cars:
-What they are: These cars are push pull coaches, not EMU's. These cars are incapable of powering themselves, and must be pushed or pulled by a locomotive. They will not replace Silverliner IVs because silverliners are EMUs, and these are not.
-These cars were "unveiled" at a ceremony yesterday at Market East Station (10:00 AM, track one) in which Jack Leary (SEPTA GM) gave a speech in front of the door to a new car, went through a ribbon cutting ceremony, and then the media and any other people got to look through the new vehicles.
-SEPTA ordered 10 new coaches for $12.9 million for all of them from Bombardier, and the consist at Market East was 4 new coaches, one locomotive, and one old cab car.
Now for The moment you've been waiting for . My media exposure. Well, I got interviewed by channel 3, and got taped by channel 29 (FOX), and got shown this morning. But even better, I have a picture and a caption of me in the Philadelphia Daily News. But unfortunately, they don't post pictures on the web with their articles, but here is the article. If you can, please do me the favor of buying the April 25 Daily news.
Thank you,
Isaac Shomer
hey isaac congratulations for your media exposure... without having seen the picture of you, i don't think it comes near the public spectacle that i made of myself... i invited the media into one of my bedrooms to see my motorman's cab... little did i care that the high rise bed was not made up, leaving me vulnerable to the critical remarks of several friends... little did i care that the overall austerity of the room made it look more like a prison cell or hospital bed in a mental ward...
anyway, i hope you had fun with the publicity... be sure to rub it in to other railfans that they picked you to interview... is there anyway you could scan the picture and post it here, so that i can study it and find things to criticize... :-)
Hopefully I'll be able to do that. I don't have access to a scanner at present, but have plenty of copies of the daily news, and maybe your local library does. But when I can I'll do it.
isaac... do you mean the new york daily news?
Philadelphia. I figure that they may have copies in the newspaper section of the New York library.
Philadelphia Daily News. I figure that they may have copies in the newspaper section of the New York library.
You'll find them on the R5, most likely.
Michael
The last Railfan Trip I took on LIRR, Upon reaching the End of The Far Rockaway line, I noticed the Train didn't dump. The LE just made a very swift motion to put the handle in full service brakes and then took his key out very fast. The air guage still said brakes 0, pressure 110, meaning the Train didn't dump. However, when he reached the opposite cab on the other end to go back to Flatbush avenue, all he did was put his key back in and then just pull off. Is there an explaination 4 this?
Yeah, it saved a few minutes pumping up the air again.
Does the handle remain in full service?
If the controller is in Full Service, how come there is no brake pressure?
Can somebody give me a historical explanation for the fairly modern subway project in the vicinty of Jamaica? Why did they tear down the Jamaica "el" while building a short subway line to nowhere in the same vicinity? Is this supposed to be joined to further service in the future? (which in NYC terms could mean in the next 100 years.)
Take a look at my History of the Independent Subway paper; see the section called "The 1968 MTA "Program for Action" (or, the IND Second System Revisited)".
--Mark
There was also thinking by the merchants along Jamaica Av. that the el somehow blighted the shopping strip, so they wanted to tear it down. Maybe it did, but what the merchants didn't understand is that the el brought the people to the strip in the first place. After they tore it down, the strip died.
As for the tunnel, it was supposed to extend out further, along the lirr right of way I believe, to serve southeast Queens.
There is in fact a pocket that heads toward one of the LIRR branches.
Mr t__:^)
The upper level tracks, where the E runs, turn south past Parsons-Archer and continue for 3000 feet before ending at bumper blocks. You could add another station or two along that stretch, it would seem. The lower level tracks used by the J and Z continue in a straight line, although I don't recall how far.
Only long enough to fit one 8 car train, so about 500', max.
The upper level was supposed to come out of the tunnel and head toward Southeast Queens and to JFK. You can store 30 60ft cars North of the Jamaica Center Stop. The lower level was supposed to contnue east and terminate somewhere near the Nassau Boarder. It holds just one 8 car train of 60ft cars North of the station. Part of the layup is in the station just behind the last stairway at the end of the platform.
Actually, there were never any plans to extend the lower (J line) level past it's present point. All extensions of the line relate to the upper level.
Is this section still undergoing construction today?? If so, then it's a shame.
Nope. This section is IT. They didn't bother funding the extension.
-Hank
And without the extension past Parsons, it makes the whole reason for wrecking the el seem ridiculous. Imagine how much money the state could've saved had it simply rehabbed the now-gone stations east of 121st St. on the el instead of building a paralelling subway route.
And still NO 2nd Ave. line, which has been in dire need since 1955!
I agree completely. Absolutely nothing has been accomplished.. J and E servicves both shorter, and indeed the money would havbe been better spent down payment if nothing else towards Second Ave. line.Then there's the matter of 63rd St.. many years later and even if it is connected to Queens Blvd. still no more track space available in Queens so why bother?
Well, everyone knows I cant let this subject pass without commenting, so:
Idiotic merchants, led by the owners of Mays and Gertz decided that the "el" was responsible for the decline of the Jamaica area as a shopping district, blissfully ignoring the obvious reasons of recession and urban flight. So, in one of the most idiotic mass transit plans of all time, the state of NY spent over $3 billion dollars to build a subway line which basically paralled an existing el route, which was in perfectly good condition. But wait, it gets better. To frame their monument to stupidity, they decided to close and demolish the el 10 years before the replacement subway would open. This assured that people would find other, more convienent areas to shop, and they would never return once the subway was finally opened.
The plans for the Archer Ave subway were larger than the current system, but the extensions to Laurelton, like most of the 1968 Plan for Action, were pure fantasy.
To frame their monument to stupidity, they decided to close and demolish the el 10 years before the replacement subway would open.
So, what else is new? They demolished the 2nd Ave. El 1940-42 and the last Manhattan part of the 3rd Ave. El in 1955. And where is the Second Ave. subway?
-- Ed Sachs
It runs under Christie St between Houston and the Manny B
Yup, the Chrystie St. line was not originally intended to connect to the 6th Ave line. It was meant to continue up 2nd Ave. So one can say that at least one part was built.
Thanks for the response. It addresses the issues that had caused me to wonder.
Am I to understand that the billions spend on the Archer Avenue tunnel could otherwise have gone to something like the second avenue subway? If so, it really is a monument to stupidity. Not because Queens is less deserving (I am originally from southeast Queens, so I am aware of how hard it is for non-Manhattan constituencies to get their fair share) but because there was already a perfectly functional system in place which was not substantially improved by the investment in the new system.
Of course, it is far more plausible that in the future the extension to Laurelton will occur now that the expensive tunnel has been built. I suppose that the proponents of the Archer Avenue project probably had that in mind.
Lastly, I recently visited downtown Jamaica for the first time in over 20 years. Gertz and Macys are long gone. While the shopping district is actually full of merchants and crowds and rather fun, the stores are low end non-national chains. It is nowhere near the middle class shopping area it was in the 1960 when I used regularly to go there as a child. Obviously, the "El" was not the problem.
By the way, I now live in Chicago, where the "El" is the dominant form of transit. There is not really much sense here that elevated lines are a blighting influence.
By the way, I now live in Chicago, where the "El" is the dominant form of transit. There is not really much sense here that elevated
lines are a blighting influence.
Except perhaps in the Woodlawn neighborhood where the community sentiment caused the section of the Jackson Park Green Line east of Cottage Grove Ave. to be demolished rather than rebuilt a few years back.
-- Ed Sachs
Yes, the Green Line destruction is quite interesting from the perspective of the politics of mass transit. It was a relatively short piece, but a lot of money had been spent renovating it just prior to the abrupt decision to tear it down. This decision is usually seen as an attempt to isolate that immediate neighborhood as a residential enclave apart from the vast South Side neighborhoods that connected to it via the Green Line. Whatever the deep issues underlying this questionable decision, there can be no doubt that the effected neighborhood has now been deprived of an important asset that will not be replaced any time soon.
By the way, 67th Street, over which the destroyed "El" once ran, was once, 'til the 1950's or so, the second largest retail district in Chicago. It is now absolutely destroyed, as a result of riots and gangs. Just as in Jamaica, the "El" was obviously not the problem.
For a time in the '70s, the CTA was mulling over tearing down the Loop El, partially because of the "eyesore" argument.
It didn't happen, and now that structure is a National Historic Landmark.
--Mark
As well as a regular feature on ER.
Yes, tonight #3253 was the featured car, interior shots with the actors.
Wayne
[Idiotic merchants, led by the owners of Mays and Gertz decided that the "el" was responsible for the decline of the Jamaica area as a shopping district, blissfully ignoring the obvious reasons of recession and urban flight. So, in one of the most idiotic mass transit plans of all time, the state of NY spent over $3 billion dollars to build a subway line which basically paralled an existing el route, which was in perfectly good condition. But wait, it gets better. To frame their monument to stupidity, they decided to close and demolish the el 10 years before the replacement subway would open. This assured that people would find other, more convienent areas to shop, and they would never return once the subway was finally opened.]
Ah yes, the infamous Fall of Jamaica. Your account is basically correct, although we can't be entirely sure that the area wouldn't have declined had the el remained. In other words, the el's demolition more than a decade before Archer Avenue opened certainly was a _major_ factor in Jamaica's decline as a shopping area, but probably was not the _only_ factor. I would imagine that the Green Acres mall just over the Nassau line siphoned off many people who used to shop in Jamaica. Even so, the el's premature demolition surely was a very poor decision.
Yeah, but the el's early 1978 closure forced the middle class shoppers to find alternatives, and they found it in Green Acres. Had the el remained, many people wouldn't have even bothered looking elsewhere.
I'm also not convinced that Jamaica would have survived had the subway opened in 1978, instead of 1988. It terminates at Parsons Blvd, 10 blocks short of the end of the old el. In my vague childhood memories, the Jamaica shoppind district began at Parsons and extended to 169th St, where Mays was. When my family went on a shopping trip to Jamaica, we'd get off at 168th St, walk west along Jamaica Ave, (Mays was always first, and Gertz was always the #1 priority for my grandmother when she came with us), hit the stores, then after we were done, we got back on the train at 160th St for the return trip to Woodhaven.
I still have vivid memories of waiting for a Q44 bus at Supthin/Jamaica around 1978-89, watching what remained (basically the steelwork) of the Supthin Blvd. station getting demolished. It was a truly a sad sight.
As a footnote:
In the early 1990's, the merchants decided once again that public transit (this time, the lack of buses connecting to the subway) was causing the demise of the Jamaica Avenue commercial strip. They got NYCDOT to convert Jamaica and Archer Avenues into a one-way pair, so that all of the Archer/Parsons bus riders would be taken five-to-ten minutes out of their way and pass their stores.
Needless to say, it was a royal failure.
Some people just never learn.
Hey Folks,
It's been almost a year since our first SubTalk Fieldtrip took place on April 30, 1999 (to the Williamsburgh Bridge). Since then there were fieldtrips approximately every three months (Newark Subway, Brooklyn Waterfront, Polo Grounds Shuttle).
So, it's time for another one! Any ideas?
(A trip is being planned for the summer to Boston and the Seashore Trolley Museum, more on that later...)
-Dave
My idea is to walk over the Manhattan Bridge next the H tracks, but I'll guess we'll have to wait until 2001 for that.
That Stillwell-Coney Island tour that never got off the ground could be a possibility.
Hey Dave, thanks for the anniversary notice (I was the organizer for that trip, and it was a lot of fun). Just out of curiousity, what are the anniversary dates for (1) The first SubTalk post and (2) When www.nycsubway.org first came on-line?
SubTalk came online 2/27/1997 (so we already passed the three year anniversary for that)
www.nycsubway.org (the domain name) started being used on 6/1/1997. How should we celebrate?
The first parts of the site itself came online 8/5/1995, those were a visit to City Hall station and a trip on the D-Type Triplex Nostalgia Train in the spring and summer of 1995. Initially it was located at www.k2nesoft.com/~pirmann/, then I turned it into a virtual host, subway.k2nesoft.com, not sure exactly when that was.
-Dave
Well I think that 8/5/00 is the anniversary we should celebrate.
Five years is really something...and the fact that you changed
names a few times is just a detail. The key is that you took
the initiative to put up a site which has grown and flourished.
How about a get-together at the Transit Museum on 8/5 (it's a
Saturday!). Maybe we can even convince the Transit Museum to
publicise the event and (am I dreaming here) have a system
set-up so that people can view the site???
The Transit Museum might be closed that day because of its planned renovations, but you're right we defnitely need to do some sort of gala bash that day. Too bad there aren't any fan trip trains currently available....
-Dave
A couple of guys and myself are planning a BMT Eastern Division trip...... It will be held sometime in May.... It is in the planning stages........
3TM
Right you are, my friend. Doug aka BMTman and myself are preparing for an excursion at a time to be determined. The way it's planned right now, it'll be on a Sunday in May. This will be the big sendoff for the Fulton St El at Atlantic Av, which will soon be razed as the Canarsie Line gets modernized.
Stay tuned for details.....
-Stef
Too bad there aren't any fan trip trains currently available....
There are some ERA members who follow this board and may have experience with charters. How, exactly, DOES one charter a train? Could we, say, charter a train of R-36WF cars and run them from Corona to Coney Island and back again?
--Mark
One writes a letter to the head of the agency, explaining that one wants to charter a train and indicating potential dates, the number of cars desired, how many hours, etc. Someone from the agency then gets back to the writer, indicating whether it can be done, and, if so, how much it will cost. If the agency is willing to run the trip and the cost is manageable, the trip runs.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Thank you. Just curious ... over the years, has the TA been more or less receptive to chartered trips?
--Mark
Yes, they have been more or less receptive to chartered trips :-)
It's varied with the administration. ERA hasn't asked for one recently.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
i posted a phone number that a train can be rented check my older post
I saw the posting. Whose train is it, where is it now, and where would it go? It doesn't seem to be a subway or commuter rail train, at least not in the New York City metropolitan area.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
See my earlier post ... it's the Valley Railroad in Essex, Connecticut.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Been there - done that.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I thought I remembered that someone here had done it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Me too ... after all it's just down the raod a piece from my mom's place. Nice ride thru the woods & up the CT River to East Haddam.
But, I don't think they let you in the shops :-(
Mr t
Hey Dave: You mentioned a fan trip on a Triplex nostalgia train in 1995. Are there any triplexes around besides the one in the transit museum. I think I'd give anything to ride on one of those again.
They have 3 units, one is kept in the museum, and 2 others in Coney Island Yard. I don't believe they are in running condition right now but I don't remember exactly why. The museum roster details of what old cars are still around and where they are.
Triplex 6095 is at the Transit Museum; the other two are at Coney Island Yard and are not in the best of shape.
Body work is needed, I believe.
--Mark
[It's been almost a year since our first SubTalk Fieldtrip took place on April 30, 1999 (to the Williamsburgh Bridge). Since then there were fieldtrips approximately every three months (Newark Subway, Brooklyn Waterfront, Polo Grounds Shuttle).
So, it's time for another one! Any ideas?]
The Hudson-Hudson* Light Rail?
* = I'll call it by its official name if and when it goes to Bergen County.
That was my thought since I haven't ridden it since it officially opened. But I will probably do that this weekend. Anyone want to join me on Saturday for a ride on the "HH"LR? :-)
-Dave
I'll join you if I can get away from the family...I have awedding to attend in the evening in Suffolk County.
-Hank
Well I guess I'll make it official. I'll be at the Exchange Place HBLR station at 11:00 am Saturday for a ride down both branches and possible photo stops on the branches since I haven't covered them for the site yet. It costs $1.50 for a ticket valid 90 minutes, we might need two tickets. You can take the PATH or drive. Actually if you drive, park at Liberty State Park, we'll get off there in case anyone's waiting to meet up with us.
Which Saturday?
*This* Saturday, 4/29/2000. Meet up at 11am at Exchange Place HBLR platform or 11:30 at Liberty State Park HBLR.
-Dave
i'll try to make it and help dave celebrate the
4 1/4 years that i was not on this message board...
I'd love to join, but Jr. and I will be at Member's Day at Branford.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would enjoy going also but have already made arangements to go up to Branford also.
My grandson & I will likewise be stopping by Shoreline/Branford. There's also a model train show in Westchester on the way up.
Mr t__:^)
My wife is demanding to see where I'm spending weekends. I will have to introduce her to 6688 and 629 my two picks of the collection (RT/Trolley) on Members Day, I'm sorry to miss the HBLR trip.
Pray for some decent weather. It doesn't look too good; I'm supposed to see the Yankees play this Saturday (annual Suffern DARE trip) myself ....
--Mark
I am definitely interested in coming, but be aware they're predicting heavy rain for Saturday (for a change!). Inclement weather might impede our ability to conduct a full visual inspection of the rolling stock, route, station, etc. You really need a clear, at least partly sunny day.
Haven't seen such a prolonged stretch of cool, damp, dreary weather except whenever I go to a Catskills resort. This past Good Friday, I braved the downpour to ride the 'Q', and the combination of near zero visibility and the leaky front window of the Slant I was on made it a waste of time.
Before you know it, we'll be cursing the heat.
The recent foul weather is all a plot by perpetrated by WCBS Radio...
;-)
I'll be there in spirit. April 30 will mark 33 years since my first ride on the IND.
Too bad Denver is so far away. We could have a Subtalk field trip out here and check out our light rail line once the new extension opens.
We still haven't picked a date for the Staten Island North Shore walk. We need Mark W. for this. I had suggested May 7, but he hasn't commented.
The 7th it is!!
Now let's hope the weather cooperates.
What ever happened to the Stillwell Avenue trip?
[What ever happened to the Stillwell Avenue trip?]
Some warm evening, about 6 you might get Doug the BMT Man, Slant 40 Wayne or myself to go there. Doug & I caught up with a small group of SubTalkers there who were riding Red Birds on the IRT's birthday last Fall. Not too much to see, but enough if it's part of another trip, AND incl. a stop at Nathans for a bite.
Mr t__:^)
oooH. COUNT ME IN
OK bye me ... maybe in May when it warms up. I'll see if I can get Peggy Darlington to join us, she knows the most about the history of the station ... that would probally make it mid-week at 6 PM.
For me the trip would start at Main Street at 4 PM, so if there's interest in a little Red Birding from there let me know ... you could also see the new Main Street station & nice photo ops on the way in !
At the end of the trip we'll catch a Slant 40 on the Brighten line, so the trip would be a lot of FUN and with some history/detail at Coney Island.
Mr t__:^)
We saved the best for last back in October: a nice express run on a Q train on our way back from Stillwell Ave. And I caught a glimpse of the now-abandoned tunnel which used to connect the north side tracks on the bridge to Canal St.
Dave,
This website had been great....I can't wait for the future fieldtrips and "anniversary bash." My suggestions for fieldtrips would be going to Penn Station (though I'll probably be at South Station in Boston) for the launch of Acela Express, which will hopefully be this summer (or fall). Also, we should all meet for one ( maybe the very first??) of the first revenue runs of the R-142.
I'm excited for the Boston field trip too...I will definitely try to make that!! Maybe in 2001, if it actually opens up by then, we can have a field trip to the North Station Superstation. -Nick
I'm looking forward to a busy Spring/Summer of "Field Trips" and hope that I'll still be married by Fall ;-)
- Hudson-Bergen LR ... several of us have been talking with a Jersey native about one soon.
- I'll do my trip to the Beachs of Rock & Long when it gets hotter
- Doug the BMT Man has been talking about doing the other end of Bay Ridge, i.e. to the water vs. Atlantic Ave.
- Elsewhere in this thread is a hint of a trip incl. the Broadway Eastern Parkway complex. If Doug has anything to do with it you'll also be treated to a ride on the Franklin Shuttle. Accept for the Hippos it's a MUST SEE if you haven't been yet.
- Philly ... a couple of us have talked about this trip.
- Staten Island ... Mark W. is doing a North side walk. I'm still hopping someone organizes a South side ride out & back.
- On June 3rd there's subway/trolley show in NJ.
- Local museums are waking up from their hibernations, e.g. Shoreline at Branford brings out all it's hundred year olds June 17 & 18. Several plyed the rains in NYC, e.g. #220 was a cable car, then did time on TARS (Third Ave) ... it's in great shape except for a wheel flange so she can only roll back & forth under her own power in a streight line for now.
- Last but not least is the "Field Trip" to Boston & Kennebunkport in July. Last night I found my "Passport" from 1989 & the phone number of one of the hotels I'm going to call (it's at the end of the Green line at Riverside). Todd has given me a few more to choose from. If you want to be added to the off-line e-mail group that is forming please let me know soon, as I'm mixing the cement & will be pouring it soon. The group is somewhere between a 1/2 dozen & a dozen right now. We could use a couple more drivers to get us from Boston to ME as some want to take AmTrak to Boston (note the new Acella trains won't be on that part of the line until next year).
Disclaimer: I'm not the SubTalk Field Trip coordinator, just someone who likes to have FUN riding the system. Seriously, taking Dave's lead why not organize a trip yourself ? Doesn't have to be a big thing or some event that will never happen again. If there's a part of the system that you've never rode or want to ride again either some evening or on a weekend ... post your desire, you may find a bunch of us want to tag along. I've had the pleasure of meeting face-to-face a couple dozen SubTalkers this way ... the "3/4 ton crew" is amoung them. Now this little group does a lot of stuff togather, incl. getting dirty at our favorite museum ... Ding Ding Ding.
Mr t__:^)
South Shore line is hard on the SIR becasuse of the limited service non rush hour. I would be great to catch the last Great Kills Express train later in June when we have the longest days.
Or I don't know if they still run it, around 5:30pmish there was an experss Tottenvile-St. George equipment move (sometimes 2 trains long or a normal subway 8 car). But once more the timing does not work out for those that get out of work 5 to 6pm.
Weekend trips are hampered by the ferry runing every hour until noonish and less frequent service to hope on and off to take pix.
Still I would do any trip you meantioned >G<>
This morning while on the LIRR, a women on the other side of the ailse received a phone call to her cell phone. At the time i was just about to doze off before we entered the tunnel. As soon as she started talking, I knew right then and there I was not going to get any sleep during her conversation. In fact, the older gentleman seated next to her said to her "to please lower your voice." Upon finishing her conversation, she was upset at the man for disturbing her conversation between her and her client. The man said she was yelling in his right ear, to which she said in rely, "I hope you have a !@#$%$ day."
My question is, will they ever ban the use of cell phones on the trains?....I mean some people just use them to show that they have one on them and make stupid phone calls. I mean some people have very load phone voices the make the ride very unconfortable for the rest of us. Also, who really wants to be forced to listen to someone's conversation.
I was recently in Europe and they seem to have "no cellphone" cars,
or at least thats what I think a picture with a cell phone with
a red slash thru it means...
A cell phone works in the East River tunnel?
My walkman could't work? A cell works under 70 feet of water,soil, cement and steel?
It's possible. Bell Atlantic cellphones work in the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel because small cellular antennae called 'microcells' have been installed in all the TBTA and PANYNJ tunnels. Don't know if AT&T or Sprint have installed microcells.
AT&T has wired the tunnels, Bell Atlantic (and other) phones work because there are roaming agreements in place. AFAIK no one has yet wired the tunnels into NYP - Amtrak hasn't been willing to arrange installation time, even though AT&T (and probably other carriers as well) has offered big bucks for the privilege.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Agreements in place, but I've got Verizon Wireless (formerly Bell Atlantic Mobile, formerly Bell Atlantic NYNEX Mobile, formerly Bell Atlantic Mobile...) and the tunnels are not roaming.
The only thing weirder is recieveing a phone call while on the bus in the tunnel, and having to pass the phone 3 rows back because it's not for you!
-Hank
May be Verizon Wireless, but I'm still writing checks to Bell Atlantic Mobile for 2 cell phones and two pagers. I wonder who we're really sending the money to. The pagers don't say "Thank you for using Bell Atlantic" any more, and the 800 number now connects to somebody other than Bell Atlantic or Verizon Wireless.
Go fig.
At least the local transit property and the local streetcar museum still have the name they started with.
OK ... I made the assumption that roaming agreements were in place because someone else stated that Bell Atlantic phones worked in the tunnels, and I know that the cell sites are AT&T. Perhaps the roaming agreements are no longer in place (stuff like this keeps changing, too %@*$ often).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought they used "leaky cable" antennaes? or are they just for analog...?
The cheapest thechnology to "wire" a tunnel is CDMA (Sprint PCS, ATT)
Arti
Lovely.
We should punish everyone for the crimes of the visible few.
The only people who support these policies are those who don't have a cell phone. I can support designated areas (a la smoking).
Maybe I should drive instead, then get distracted and crash, or maybe run the phone in a gas station so it could spark up and cause a cataclysmic explosion.
Funny, someone wrote a letter to the Philadelphia inquirer about the same problem on Sunday on the R8.
"I mean some people just use them to show that they have one on them"
I hear this kvetch all the time, but come on, it isn't 1985! Cell phones were still a "status symbol" of sorts ten years ago or more, but they're too common nowadays (25% or more of households in some metro areas) for ANYONE, however vain, to be using them to show off. This particular complaint usually comes from "eat-the-rich" knee-jerk yuppie bashers.
"and make stupid phone calls."
I've heard this one too. Why do people feel competent to judge the importance of other people's phone calls when they're being made by wireless? Do people weigh in on the relative importance of calls that people make from payphones? Or the calls they make or receive on their home telephone? I have some breaking news for you: most of the calls made on landline phones are inane too.
One complaint I've read in the Metra passenger newsletter (read: monthly kvetch fest) is people who start off cell phone calls (after or instead of the greeting) with "I'm on the train." They complain that the person is just showing off and stating the obvious. No, pudding-brain, usually they're trying to get their spouse, S.O., teenage child, or neighbor to pick them up at the train station. Therefore: 1) the person on the train knows that the caller is on a train BUT THE PERSON BEING CALLED DOESN'T!! They aren't talking to you, they're talking to the person on the other end of the phone, you nosy parker! 2) it's very relevant that the person is on the train. They're not still at the office, they aren't heading for the train station, and they aren't at the station, but on the other hand, they aren't standing at their destination station freezing their heinie off or getting soaked by a rainstorm either. I would think that the fact that the person is on the train is VERY useful to the person they're talking to so they know when to leave the house to pick them up.
I admit that some people talk too loud on the phone. But people talk too loud on trains to people right next to them in person, too. Unless you're going to ban all talking on trains -- and I've seen it proposed seriously in the Metra newsletter -- cell phones aren't the problem.
BTW, I don't have a cell phone. I just like being the devil's advocate when others come to a pat answer that's simultaneously overbroad (punishes cell phone users who don't talk loudly) and not broad enough (does nothing about people who speak loudly in person).
I think John has driven home what many seem to miss. It isn't cell phones that are the problem, it's rude and inconsiderate people using cell phones that is the problem.
Banning cell phones isn't the answer, and I'm skeptical that No Cell Phone cars are either. I don't think too many people are offended by people calling ahead to say they're on the 6:16, and there are plenty of people making such calls from the train.
I've always wondered about the idea of cell phones as a status symbol. To me, the idea of discussing business on a rush-hour train seems absurd. After all, how many of your competitors are sitting right in your vicinity?
Same goes for beepers as a status symbol. Why is it considered "impressive" that a person can be called away from their personal time by their job at any time day or night? I've always said that when they walk in my office with a beeper for me, I'll hand them my resignation.
Chuck
Cell phones do have merit if you want to advise someone what time they should meet your train, or if there are unusual delays. What irks most people are the braggarts who have to loudly repeat all the wonderful things their mate is telling them to illustrate how fabulously successful they are. ("Tell them we'll take the four-bedroom challet in East Hampton and have our agent put the three-bedroom townhouse in Sag Harbor on the market. Lindsay's soccer team won again? Great! The boss says I'm getting another promotion and bonus, so we'll be able to get the Wagoneer this week after all.")
I'm not a regular railroad commuter, although a friend who rides the Port Wash line daily says he hears this type of conversation nearly every night. My recent ride from Ronkonkoma to Greenport was marred by 'Linda' calling 'Gail' every few minutes to revise the contract yet again. Since only one of the two coaches on the bi-level was open, there was no way to escape it.
As far as beepers, I have one. Not for work, but if my wife needs to me to get milk on the way home, it beats walking in the door and having to walk right out again. It does come in handy if you're on the go a lot, or work an outside job where you don't have a phone- I worked an outdoor flea market for several years.
I stopped going to the movies after, along with cell phones constantly ringing, one guy MADE a call and began loudly planning his weekend right in the middle of the movie. After a few people yelled at him to shut up, he TURNED THE SPEAKER ON so we could hear his friend, too. An usher politely asked the guy to take it into the lobby. As soon as the usher left, the conversation began again.
The collary is that pagers can be used to pull you away from business for personal time!
;-)
[I admit that some people talk too loud on the phone. But people talk too loud on trains to people right next to them in person, too. Unless you're going to ban all talking on trains -- and I've seen it
proposed seriously in the Metra newsletter -- cell phones aren't the problem.]
I'd have to say that I find loud cellphone conversations less disturbing than loud in-person conversations. In fact, loud cellphone conversations may be less disturbing than not-so-loud in-person conversations. I'm not entirely sure of why this is the case, but it might have to do with the fact that it's easier to "tune out" a conversation when you're hearing only half of it. With an in-person gabfest, in contrast, I find myself (involuntarily) drawn to follow the conversation, which makes it much more distracting. YMMV.
I cane up with an idea while on an old Lirr diesel coach with malfunctioning lights. Designate one car on the train as a "Dark and Quiet Car". No form of communication allowed, and keep the lights on emergency (especially at night, to see the scenery). Charge 50c or so more and don't worry about any annoying and noisy neighbors. Violators of the quiet rule should be removed from the car, or removed from the train for an extreme violation (several minutes of lound conversation).
PLEASE !!!!!!!.........do not use your cellphone on a styrofoam built R-142..!!
it will screw all of the on board computers completely up !! the motorman might loose control !!!
I thought you would like it if an R-142 got screwed up.
no !! just your head !!
Play nice BOYZ
........ok i will do it for you !!!..........YOUZ......
While cell phones are becoming a common item like beepers, a friend who rides from Mineola on the LIRR has seen it first hand where one person receives a call on the train which then starts a "big trend" in the car for others to pull out there cell phones and start yapping away about trival stuff. on another occassion, one user was suing fool language and in the seat in front of him was family of four with young kids forced to listen to this behavior. Yes, cell phones do have their place in our world as a matter of convenience, but not for intruding on other people's personal space.
Re. the phone user cursing on the train with children present: this could -- and does, I've seen it -- happen with two people talking in person too. Take two "macho" passengers (usually male, and as likely to be twentysomething stock traders as construction workers), add some booze from the station bar, throw in a dash of hour-long train journey, add a pinch of bad experiences at work that day, and voila, coarse language flows like water.
Like a lot of people, I have an "electronic leash". My phone is a double-edged sword; it enables me to reach people regardless of where I am, but it also enables them to reach me. I don't get a thrill out of using one on the train, or anywhere else; most of the time I'd a whole lot rather be left alone. On the other hand, having it is a great convenience - I can call my wife and let her know when to expect me home, I can check messages at the office, the folks who work for me can call me and get their problems addressed without waiting (which means that I get more work out of them), etc. It's the teenage/twenty-something ratchet-jaws that bother me, and they're that way regardless of whether or not they have a cell phone stuck to their ear.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>Upon finishing her
conversation, she was upset at the man for disturbing her conversation between her and her client. The
man said she was yelling in his right ear, to which she said in rely, "I hope you have a !@#$%$ day." <<<
The opinion of many cell phone enthusiasts matches that woman's. Their attitude is, it's the year 2000, bud, and you'd better get used to people yakking on cell phones, because we're not going to stop just because you want to doze off.
If presented with a loud cellphone yakker, I just change cars, which I do when a screaming baby enters the car as well. That solution will be tougher as more and more people get cellular. I may invest in earplugs.
I think the cellyakkers-in-their-own-car solution will be dificult to enforce, especailly during rush hours.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I once got stuck next to a cell phone yakker, who later asked me if I found the cell phone annoying. If he wasn't more polite about it, or if there wasn't 6 other people 3 times as loud as him in there, my reply was gonna be "It's not the cell phones I find annoying, it's the users"
Anyone ever get the "I'm on the train" conversation?:
"Hello??? Yeah, I'm on th train. No. Yeah. No, I'm on the train. No, I'm ON The train!! No, I'm not at work I'...."
*redials*
"Hello? yeah, we just got cut off. No, I'm not, I'M ON THE TRAIN!!!! Yeah the TRAIN!!! No we're heading into Bayside now. YES!!! Ok, what? I..."
*redials, again*
"Hello, yeah, we just got cut off again. Yeah, I'm in Bayside. Yeah? Ok. Uhhuh. What's for diner? Yeah? Oh, Ok uhuh. I'll talk to you when I get home? Oh, ok. yeah. bye"
I get this half the time I'm on the PW line.
Metro-North was considering coating the widows with a film to block the phones. Hey, I'm all for it. Actually, IMHO, cars should all be equipped with a box that prevents cell phones from working unless the car's in park.
See my previous longer posting, but basically "I'm on the train" is usually a fast shorthand for "pick me up at the train station SOON, because I'm on my way." Even where it isn't, where the passenger drives themselves home from the station, is it so wrong for someone to want someone at home to know they're on the way, not still at work? Haven't people been calling home as they leave work or from the train station for **decades** now JUST to let their loved ones know they're coming soon, independent of seeking a ride or finding out if they need to buy a gallon of milk on the way home?? Were (or are -- not everyone has a cellphone) those calls somehow less inane because they're made from a landline phone?
I don't think people are calling from the train just to say they're calling from a train. [People do that on planes with airphones ("Guess where I'm calling from. No, really, guess.") but that's totally different.] And they *aren't* doing it to annoy you! Remember they're talking to their spouse, significant other, or kids -- not you!
Then, if they're talking to their S.O., they can:
1) Be quiet about it
2) Stand somewhere else out of the way
3) Not get so annoyed when they start shouting and everyone gets annoyed at them.
Really, is it so gosh darn important that it can't wait until you get home? It's like the people in their cars with phones up their ears all the time - if they're so damm important to the existance of the world, why don't they have someone to drive them around?
I dont' mind cell phones, I mind cell phone users. They're often loud, obnoxious, and rarely considerate of others.
"Really, is it so gosh darn important that it can't wait until you get home?"
But nobody asks that about calls made from landline phones! Next time you're in Grand Central Terminal or Penn Station (or your city's train station or airport), go past the payphones. How many people are on the phone? Now how many of them are discussing vital and important business, and how many of them are making the "I'm at the train station" call?
Plus if the point of the call is to either get picked up at the station or to find out if one has to buy anything on the way home, then NO, actually, it CAN'T wait until they get home.
So anyone using a cell phone should "stand somewhere else out of the way"? Like in the vestibule, where everyone then complains that they're blocking egress? Like in the tiny lavatory? And (except in the pages of the Metra newsletter) I don't see anyone asking someone speaking IN PERSON to someone next to them to "be quiet about it [and] stand somewhere else out of the way".
>>>So anyone using a cell phone should "stand somewhere else out of the way"? ....Like in the tiny lavatory?<<<
Actually...you're on to something there.
>>>>I don't see anyone asking someone speaking IN PERSON to someone next to
them to "be quiet about it [and] stand somewhere else out of the way".<<<
John, the world would be a bit more livable if folks WOULD keep it down, not just on the trains, but in general. Next time you're stopped at a red light, wait a nanosecond before starting the car again when the light turns green. A cacophony of horns will remind you that a city street is no place to relax and take it easy.
I think we should work toward making it just a bit more peaceful.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>>Really, is it so gosh darn important that it can't wait until you get home? It's like the people in their cars with
phones up their ears all the time - if they're so damm important to the existance of the world, why don't
they have someone to drive them around?<<<
Agreed. BUT: Let me admit one thing that may qualify my stance on this subject: I live by myself and don't have anyone depending on me.
Still: everyone got along fine until a couple of years ago with phones in their homes with cords on them.
By jingo, everyone got along fine until 1952 without TVs and until 1921 without radios and until 1890 without electric lamps! Darn kids...always inventing stuff to annoy us...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Has ANYONE out there used the pay phones on the new LIRR tri-level trains?? If so, how did they work?
Wow...looks like we ride the same train, the Port Washington line. Anyway, I truely believe some calls are legit, calls that are for meanfuling purposes, but for the most part, they are used as "show off toys" more than to call ahead that the train is delayed. Lets face that fact also that common courtsey is DEAD, that RUDE RULES, even on the LIRR. Whether it is cell phones or hearing someone use vulgar language while chatting away, rudeness is common place.
Can you imagine a cell phone user on a train of R-10s, especially in their final days?
"What?...WHAT?!?... Speak up, I can't hear you. This train is to friggin' LOUD!!"
[Can you imagine a cell phone user on a train of R-10s, especially in their final days?
"What?...WHAT?!?... Speak up, I can't hear you. This train is to friggin' LOUD!!"]
Maybe that DID happen. Let's see, the first handheld cell phones hit the market in the late 1980's ... when were the last R-10's scrapped?
It would have to used on the Lefferts/Rockaway section. I doubt that any cell phone would of worked in the subway at that time.
I rode it today. It has articulated cars. There are two articulations seperating the car into three parts. Triplex anyone?
The 34th Street branch is much more interesting and much faster. It runs parallel to another railroad line. In fact, I think it uses part of that lines old right-of-way. The Motorman's cab looks like something out of a Star Trek movie. There are TV cameras to show the operator that the doors are clear. Also, the cars have three sections. The middle section, where the doors are, is a bit lower. You must go up two steps to get to the other two sections. The lower section is in the middle, the higher sections are at the ends. The doors are like doors on a subway train, except they push out a little before sliding to the side. All in all, very charming line. It's about time they're building new rail lines. It costs $1.50 to ride for 90 minutes. 75 cents for disabled or Seniors. It's well worth the cost.
Shoddy NYCT service? Turtles passing your hippos? You are not alone.
Email Transit_Rider_Complaints@NewYorkCityTransit.Com
http://www.newyorkcitytransit.com/transit-complaints.htm
Get your buck fifty's worth.
Is this a new official site? What is it?
It appears to be the work of Ed Kehoe (whoever he is) and has a strong pro-union, anti-TA and indeed anti-government and anti-private industry bias - at least that's the feel I get after about fifteen minutes perusing the site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i noticed on quite a few 800 series path cars, that
the glass signs mounted on the sides indicating:
WTC HOB 33 JSQ NEW were backlit with much
brighter red bulbs producing a really eye catching
and easy to read sign... it really stands out... i
didn't get to see any of these cars which were on
the head end to see if the front destination sign
was similarly lit... i really liked it...
04/25/2000
heeeeeyyyyyyy....paul,
Those may not be brighter bulbs, but rather LED's. This is the new rage that is showing up on traffic signals, turn signals on buses and route designation signs of the fronts of R-142's. They say they are brighter and last longer than traditional carbon filament bulbs.
Bill Newkirk
i was back at exchange place today for the 5th
time... i still haven't found the hblr line... but
on my way back to new york, i decided to confront my
discomfort with the long escalator ride... i made
about 4 round trips on the escalator and actually
got to like it... but the really interesting thing
was on the way up... from about 1/3 of the way up to
about 2/3 of the way up, if you looked over to the
people going down the escalator, it looked
positively surreal... it was about 4:30 pm, so there
were a lot of people heading down to the path
trains... what seemed so strange was watching the
people who were walking quickly down the
escalator...they all seemed to be leaning back at a
severe angle... it reminded me of some monty python
sketch from years ago of people who had strange
walks... i really don't understand the physics or
optics of what i saw... from my vantage point, you
couldn't tell that these faster moving people were
stepping down the escalator... it seemed like one
very long ramp... i would love to video tape what i
saw... on one of the last trips up, i told other
people going up to look over to the down side and
caused a near riot with the up passengers laughing
at the down passengers (just a joke)... after the
5th trip, i began to retch uncontrollably and was
asked to leave the escalators ( just a joke )...
when i got back to the world trade center, i noticed
the same thing on their long bank of escalators, but
by then i had seen enough of humanity for one day...
ROTFLMAO.
Now that I've gotten up and composed myself...
That Monty Python sketch you mentioned was the Ministry of Silly Walks, which John Cleese is best remembered for. He gets many requests to do a silly walk, and says he hates it.
I didn;t think that scetch was all that funny. The one where he was messing with the guy who came in to apply for a job that didn't exist or the other one where he was the owner of a used goods store and traded another job applicant a job and an army greycoat for his shoes.
having only found $5 worth of aluminum cans this morning, when i got out to jersey city i was unable to afford a ride of the hblr line... instead i studied the remarkable street map of jersey city, hoboken, bayonne and points afar that was engraved on the floor of the platform
there was a plaque that had the following inscription which i first thought was the work of my friend in fantasy avid reader
" In that Empire, the Art of Cartography attained such Perfection that the map of a single Provence occupied the entirety of a City... In time... the Cartographers Guild struck a Map of the Empire whose size was that of the Empire...The following Generations, who were not so fond of the study of Cartography... saw that that vast Map was Useless... they delivered it up to the Inclemencies of Sun and Winters. In the Deserts of the West, still today, there are Tattered Ruins of that Map...in all the Land there is no other Relic of the Disciplines of Geography."
Jorge Luis Borges, On Exactitude in Science
So I'm here in Toronto riding around the various lines, and I make it out the the Scarborough LRT line, and it has two third rails. I guess it would actually be a third and fourth rail, now that I think of it. Also the entire length of track has a metal "thingy" running down the middle of it. My guess is some sort of (egads) inductive propulsion?
Some one fill me in.
Also the signals here are the same, yet quite different. The hardware is all USS it looks like, but these kanucks use some funny aspects.
Its nice to visit a city that hasn't ripped up all of thier trolley lines.
And people really do say "eh?" all the time.
Dave
What is the maximum speed of Path trains? How fast do they go in the Hudson tubes and in NJ?
55 MPH
What kind of signals does the LIRR use in it's tunnels to Penn station? They look like subway signals except they flash.
Same signals except they use PRR aspects.
Flashing red I think its like a stop sign.
What color was flashing?
How about the signals in Penn Station with two yellows side by side. I assume they indicate switch positions...
dave
Speaking as a die hard PRR fan, your ignorance astounds me! Those signals with the 2 "yellows" are PRR Position Light dwarf signals. Some of them are installed in the LIRR yards and were controlled by the late, great KN tower. PRR low dwarfs could show 4 aspects in all, but some 3 light varients could only show 2. These are installed in Penn Station. A PRR dawrf signal has 3 or 4 WHITE lights. They are white as in lightbulb white, not lunar white. The lenze is clear and untinted. The ones in Penn Station can show 2 horizontal lights for STOP ( -- ), or 2 lights in a 45o back-slash ( \ ) for RESTRICTING. The 4 light dwarfs can also slow SLOW CLEAR ( | ) and SLOW APPROACH ( / ). I have posted a 95K picture of a active 3 light PRR dawrf that is currently guarding CP-HATCH in South Jersey near the Delair Bridge. It is here
(http://lexcie.dhs.org/~emike/Del1.jpg)
Ahh... The LIRR still has a few of these, I think...
Oh yeah, they also have the pedestal ones around Jamacia that have two sets of lights on them.
The LIRR also has square position light signals over the bridges
heading toward Jamacia from Penn, I've heard these are unique to the LIRR.
The ones with 2 sets of lights and High Dawrf signals. They can display almost all the aspects, including full CLEAR. There are a bunch around Suburban Station in Philly.
Yikes!
A) Those arent the signals I'm talking about, I'm talking about the ones up over the platforms in the station, which are vertical lines of lenses, with a single pair or yellows side by side, like a cross or a lower case t or a +
B) I grew up on the west coast, and I didn't find out about all of these railroads that don't end in "Pacific" until I was older. Ditto for the position light signals. I do know what A P.L. dwarf is though.
Dave
Believe it or not, the Baltimore MTA recycled some PRR Dwarf signals on the Central Light Rail Line. At both North Avenue station and Camden Yards station, PRR dwarfs are used where a standard signal head won't fit. They are 3 indication heads, showing only the clear, approach and stop signals.
The signals came from the former Mount Vernon Yard which was recycled into the North Avenue Shop and yard. The location has been in rail use since 1864.
I saw a flashing green once.
The LIRR does not have signals in the East River tubes. The tracks and signals belong to AMTRAK. A flashing signal aspect is referred to by the same name as the non-flashing aspect with the word "Advanced" or "Absolute" in front of it. Example - an approach signal that is flashing would be referred to as "Advanced Approach". A Medium Clear that is flashing is referred to as "Absolute Medium Clear".
As I understand it (as a layman) the advance or absolute have no significance to the LIRR engineer as they are still governed by the displayed speed code in the cab. The flashing signals are meant as modifiers for the non-flashing signals for trains not equiped with the LIRR type speed control.
For example the LIRR engineer can get a 30 code or a 40 code for the same approach signal whereas the AMTRAK engineer's cab signal will simply display the approach aspect. The flashing aspect gives the AMTRAK engineer the additional info that the LIRR engineer gets in the cab. The only time the LIRR engineer needs that additional info. is if his speed control is shut off due to defect.
Flashing lights are used to increase the number of aspects any given signal can display. A single flashing yellow is advance approach, which is used in a 4 block signaling system. Amtrak recently upgraded the NEC to this standard. Yellow over flashing green is Approach Limited and Red over flashing green is Limited Clear. Penn Station signals can not display these because there is no lower green light. Red over flashing yellow is Medium Approach. A Penn signal is capable of displaying this signals. It instructs the engineer to slow to medium speed as soon as the signal in visable and to be prepared to stop at the next signal.
The signals in the tunnles are all automatic block signals and would only display an advance approach signal for a flashing signal. The interlocking signals near the may display Medium Approach.
Regarding cab signals the tubes only use the 4 aspect PRR system. They only show SLOW, APPROACH, APPROACH MEDIUM and CLEAR. All the myraid wayside signals basically have only 4 speeds associated so only 4 cab signals are needed. The LIRR may use more speeds, but the system works via coded pulses in the rails and the LIRR trains can recieve all 4 Amtrak signals plus its own, but Amtrak can only understand the 4 basic ones. If all the LIRR signals were used the Amtrak signals would not work all the time.
Red over flashing yellow is Medium
Approach.
Then what is red over solid yellow?
Red over solid yellow I think means the same as 3 diagnal yellow lamps meaning Approach as next signal could be RED(danger) I honestly don't know, but I will be going Railfanning 2 Pennsylvanina Station 2morrow morning Via the 9:21 Train stopping at Rosedale. I know that engineer and I will ask her what those signals mean.
My generic signalling book defines Red over Yellow as: "Restricting. -Enter block prepared to stop short of a train or other obstruction."
It seems the Toronto Subway also uses a lot of flashing aspects when grade timers are running. Comments, Mr. TTC?
Dave
Yes, Red over Yellow is Restricting. Yellow over red is approach.
Does anyone remember the 3 position colored lights that LIRR and the Pennsy used to use? Are they still in use? My brother just came back from a 2 week Railfan Trip thru Japan, and showed me a Video. It seems that all the railroads in Japan use those type of signals, and Railfanning is very big over there.
The signals in Penn Station are special colour light signals built by the Union Switch and Signal company in 1910 specifically for the Penn Station project. In 1910 the PRR still used semaphore signals and the first instalation of the famous Position Light signals was still 5 years away, so these signals that are still in Penn Station were truely revolutionary. The signals have 2 groups of lights. On top there is a green light next to a yellow light. Under that there is a red light. Then there is a gap for the signal plate. Under that is another red light and on the bottom is a yellow light. I have posted a pic on a Penn Station signal online.
on the new jersey side (hudson river) they did away with the wayside side signals. its cab signals only now.
The ones that were removed were sacrificed so that their bretheran in the station might live on. I doubt they still make parts for the PS signals, but I doubt they break much either. I'd give anything to get a working example.
Thanks for the description, I've always wondered about those heads, because they are so unlike anything else.
Do they have special aspects and indications?
Are the top two lenses side by side to conserve space, or to indicate switch point position?
They are probably just to conserve space. The upper 3 lights are a unit as it the lower 2. Never is more than 1 light per "unit" lit.
guess they predated the triangularly grouped signal heads in use by Conrail and SP, among others.
Is "triangularly" a word?
"Is "triangularly" a word?"
You wrote it, it can be pronounced, people understand it, it's a word. Plus it follows the guidelines on turning adjectives into adverbs.
On eBasy, Item #310057585; closes tomorrow, April 26 at 3:13pm New York Time:
No reserve, minimum bid applies. Rapid Transit Car Layout and Design, Booklet No. 3 by Silver leaf Rapid Transit Models. Published 1964, cardstock covers, 32 pages, 34 photos, diagrams, containd much information on rights of way, elevated lines, subways with trolleys, suburban operations, signalling, scheduling, stations, chaining and equipment. A very hard-to-find item.
Joe,
Item #310057585
is a Twilight Zone video.
Couldn't find anything for Silver Leaf or Rapid Transit in ebay matching what you described. I searched at 1:33 PM April 26, 2 hours before the deadline, so unless I get some last minute info I'm shut out.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Due to an typographical error on my part, the eBay number should have been 310058585. However, your search by name, had it included the words "Silver Leaf," should have easily turned it up, as those words appeared both in the title and text.
The auction is closed; another party has secured the item. My suggestion is never to wait until an auction closing is imminent; rather search the item as early as possible and bookmark it, checking on its progress until close to auction closing time, then bid on it should you be interested in possibly winning it.
I am offering many bus, subway, trolley and railroad items (there are about 50 listed right now). To see what's available, do a Seller Search using "JoePCC699@AOL.com." You may find something you've been looking for. My listings are changed almost daily; it is suggested you check "JoePCC699@AOL.com" as frequently as possible.
>>>My suggestion is never to wait until an auction
closing is imminent; rather search the item as early as possible and bookmark it, checking on its progress
until close to auction closing time, then bid on it should you be interested in possibly winning it. <<<
I was unaware of the item until reaching subtalk this morning at about 11:30, by which time it was gone...
About time it came out! I've waited long enough. Paul Matus, you hear that? I have issues one and two, a brown cover and a blue cover.
JoeCaronetti
if you want some information about the specs on the
hblr cars here is a website
car
specs link
hblr is not being operated by njt... it was built by
a whole consortium of companies most notably
Raytheon, called 21st Century Corp... they have a
15 year DBOM, design, build, operate, and maintain
contract... njt owns the line... the train operators
are not employees of njt, but of 21st century
corp...
another thing i found on the njt hudson bergen web
pages is that as a light rail system under federal
regulations, train operators are not required to
blow horns while entering stations or approaching
grade crossings... it is up to the train operator...
if you don't believe that here is the webpage i got
that off
station and grade crossing signalling
Yesterday I took the subway for almost the entire day. First I took the C downtown from 96th St. to 59th St. I noticed that they removed the old token booth from the 97th St. entrance, they also put backlit ads on the entrance, why would they waste the time and money? I then took the D to 7th Av. And then car 3653 on the E, the car had the old transit emblem on it, the first time I'd seen it in 3 years! As we passed Elmhurst, I notice how the station lighting and the Ad-lighting made it look like a station from another system, was this done on purpose? I then got off at 71st Continental, saw the new movie "Keeping the Faith" (Which had an R-32 set in 1970? with R on the side destination side) Went to my old neighborhood, Kew Gardens, and saw some of old friends.
Waiting for the LIRR at Kew Gardens I saw three BI-levels, two of them going to Port Richmond and the other one going backwards, with the cars in the front and the engine in the back heading in the direction of New York, I wonder what happened to it? On the Railroad the car lights flickered leaving us in the dark reminding me of some Redbirds of old.
Came back to New York and took the R-38 C back home, car 4059 lights actually went off and a crowded train of people was left to see in emergency lights.
I stop at my house real quick and went back down to Broadway to see the show RENT. Not bad. After that took the 2 back home, lead car 8889 had a light pink 2, I'll assume that it just faded.
I do have one question, does anyone know the whereabouts of car 1984? I remember seeing it about 5 years ago but i haven't seen it since
Port Richmond????
Port Richmond Is In Staten Island! Do you possibly mean Port Jefferson?
sorry Port Jefferson, I don't know where Port Richmond came from.
BTW, I want to apolize for the bad grammer in my post, it was a late night and I didn't get my thoughts out right, sorry
metrocard.cjb.net
chat.cjb.net/metrocard
Various cars have the old 2 color M, though I usually see it on the B division only. I remember a pair of R-38s have a small sized M on a large plate, there's a 10 inch border around the circle around the M, quite a sight! I have seen a few R-46s, and R-68s with the M on a smaller plate, though I think people rip of the MTA stickers to reveal them (only good thing vandals do). Most SIR trains have the old M. A few MN cars in NJ have the M as well (5175,5176, and a few others), though NJT doesn't particularly care for the paint jobs on their fleet and it's kind of faded.
All R-36s as well as R-33WF cars have flickering lights, except 9336. I 've seen pair of R-32s running around that have a problem where they are always on emergency lights. R-38s seem to lose main lights every so often for no apparent reason, though I hate it when they pop back on. Only time that happens on R-32 is when the car is stopped on a switch. R-46 emergency lights are neat, the entire center light track stays lit (that rarely happens).
Are you sure you don't mean Woodhaven (lit ads, new lighting), as I see that almost every day.
There are now 4 R44's and 1 R42's setting in the yard at 39st and 2nd Ave. They are in the yard were all the old MTA's buses are stord. They were put there about two week ago. I past the yard on a Sunday morning on my way to Jackie Gleason and they were not there. Then that afternoon I sew one of the Red Desiel I thing N1 heading to Coney Island yard. The next morning I past the 39th Yard and they were there.
The R42 you saw may be 4685. That was moved recently from the spot it was in at Coney Island yard.
If it had side damage, it would be #4685; if the "A" end was gone it would then be #4664.
A few months back (December 11th) I saw a bunch of wrecks up close to the gate just south of Avenue "X" platform at CI Yard, the shell of a Slant (minus its nose - it was the original #4260), the shell of #4664 (plaque still on it), and a few other cars as well; didn't get too good a look at 'em.
Wayne
If anybody is checking them out at 2 Ave, look for the blue door panels that 4685 had. Those two cars you mention are still in the same spot.
Just went to the SBK yard this morning (before the HBLR tour) and walked right into the facility (a guard on-duty allowed me access).
Yes, R-42 #4685 is sitting behind some other cars that are wrapped in plastic (apparently being readied for asbestoes removal). Also there is a train of TA flatcars that are marked "scrap" on an adjoining track.
Also there is the usual bunch of RTS buses for scrap and/or parts sitting off to the left of the yard.
BTW, the guard had mentioned that SBK made three movements to the 39th street yard that morning, and it was only 11:30 a.m.!
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks for the update.
Doug - what sort of damage did #4685 have - front end, side, etc.?
I have it marked as scrap but nothing in the "damage" comment box.
Thank you in advance
Wayne
Wayne, it looked like rear damage -- specifically to the blind end's rightside panel. It was replaced with a plywood board.
When I get my roll of film developed I'll be able to confirm all the gory details.
Doug aka BMTman
[BTW, the guard had mentioned that SBK made three movements to the 39th street yard that morning, and it was only 11:30 a.m.!]
I guess the trackage crossing 2nd Avenue behind Costco really is useable. It sure looked to be in sorry shape last August. Did it look like any work had been done?
I saw the NYCHRR working out of the 38th st yard last monday with a boxcar. It rolled down 2nd ave. which I thought was inaccessable. I saw gaps in the rails about ten inches wide and was filled with a cobblestone. Again, I have pics of it (NYCHRR Diesel #11) at:
http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/nychrr.html
Daniel
The cars you saw were in the South Brooklyn Railway's interchange yard.
Currently the yard is used more often as a lay-over for subway cars/buses/miscellaneous equipment that are due for scraping via car-floats to New Jersey.
Doug aka BMTman
On the WB11's 10:oo news last night, the news anchor, said Tragedy happens earlier this afternoon when a young woman riding the subway told her friend she felt dizzy. After that she fell on to the Tracks of the Uptown B,D,Q. She died instantly.
it is tragic. This affords me the opportunity to remind all subtalkers and browsers:
**please** stand behind the safety line on the platform. Keep as far away from the edge of the platform as possible. If you do not feel well it may be best not to ride the trains alone. If you are ill on the platform go to the nearest booth. We can can for EMS- at no cost to you. They'll give medical help including hospitalization. They wont refuse treatment if you can not pay upon treatment.
If you are on a train, find the conductor ior train operator or get someone else to find the train crew-
Either way help will be provided. DO NOT pull the emergency cord- it will delay the train's arrival to a station and the help you may need.
The cord should be pulled only for immediate danger such as a dragging or you see someone jump.
We want to provide train service that is safe and on time- please stand behind the yellow safety zone, especially when trains enter and leave the station.
One more thing that I remember seeing buried somewhere on the MTA website...
I'm not sure how many SubTalkers this would really apply to, but if you're taking an infant stroller or other wheeled object onto the subway, LOCK THE WHEELS while you're waiting on the platform. Most of the platforms have a slight slope toward the tracks for drainage purposes, and it would only take a slight distraction for a parent to briefly let go of the stroller and cause it to roll off the platform and onto the tracks.
-- David
Chicago, IL
right- and no skateboard riding, roller blades not off your feet, bike riding in the system. This includes stairs, platforms, mezzanines, passageways, ramps. ANYWHERE is forbidden- you will be given a ticket if caught and you will be caught.
An interesting bit of news,
Subject: Retirement changes...
PROPOSAL TO CONSOLIDATE TRAIN OPERATOR AND CONDUCTOR TITLES
1.. It is proposed that the titles of Train Operator and Conductor in
New York City Transit be consolidated into a single civil service title
to be called Subway Operator. Subway Operator will have two assignment
levels.
Level 1 will encompass the duties of current Conductor title.
Level 2 will encompass the duties of current Train Operator title. A
proposed civil service job specification is attached).
2.. Upon approval and appropriate action by the New York City
Department of Citywide Administrative Services, all current Conductors
will be reclassified to Subway Operator Level 1 and all current Train
Operators will be reclassified to Subway Operator Level 2.
3.. Any existing civil service lists for Conductor or Train Operator
will be made from the appropriate to fill vacancies in the Subway
Operator title at the appropriate level.
4.. Management will have the right to advance Subway Operators from
level 1 to Level 2 according to the following criteria:
a.. Seniority - As vacancies in Subway Operator Level 2 occur,
management will consider interested Subway Operators level 1 for
advancement in strict order of their seniority in title.
b.. Evaluation of Work History - Management will review the work
history of each Subway Operator Level 1 to determine fitness to advance to Level 2. Factors to be considered will include; discipline, safety, time and attendance.
c.. Train Operator Selection System - Subway Operators Level 1 with
less than three years of seniority in the title will be subject to
evaluation through the Train Operator Selection System (TOSS)
1.. The Selection process is not subject to the grievance
procedure.
2.. Subway Operators Level 2 will serve a probationary period of one
year after the successful completion of induction training.
3.. If there are no interested and qualified Subway Operators Level 1
available to fill Level 2 vacancies when they occur, management will
consider employees in the title of Tower Operator for placement into the title according to the criteria listed above.
4.. If there are no interested or qualified Subway Operators Level 1
or Tower Operators to fill Level 2 vacancies when they occur, management will consider NYCT (not MaBSTOA) employees in the title of Bus Operator for placement into the Subway Operator title, according to the criteria above. All Bus Operators will be subject to evaluation through TOSS.
5.. An employee who advances to Subway Operator level 2 and =
subsequently voluntarily returns to Subway Operator Level 1 (or previous title) will not be considered for advancement to Level 2 for a minimum of 5 years.
6.. Subway Operator Level 1 vacancies will be filled from open
competitive and promotion civil service lists for Subway Operator. Such examination will be given periodically as required. The promotion to Subway Operator examination will be open to all titles currently eligible for promotion to Conductor. If there are no interested and qualified Subway Operators Level 1, Tower Operators or Bus Operators to fill Level 2 vacancies when they occur, management will fill Level 2 positions directly from Civil Service lists. All open competitive candidates and promotional candidates with less than three years of NYCTA experience will be subject to evaluation through TOSS.
7.. Promotional opportunities that currently exist for Train Operators
and Conductors will not be impacted by this proposal.
Subway Operator
This class of positions has two assignment levels. Appointments will be made to Subway Operator, Level 1. Level 1 incumbents, when eligible, will be considered for appointment to Level 2 in seniority order without further examination.
General Statement of Duties and Responsibilities
As a Subway Operator Level 1, is responsible for the safe, timely and
proper operation of trains in passenger, yard and work train service.
Provides flagging protection service for workers on or near the tracks.
On station platforms, assists passengers and assists in the dispatch of trains. Performs such other duties as the New York City Transit
Authority is authorized by law to prescribe in it's regulations.
As Subway Operator Level 2, operates trains on the road, prepares trains for road service, and switches cars in yards. Performs other duties as the New York City Transit Authority is authorized by law to prescribe in it's regulations.
Examples of Typical Tasks
As a Subway Operator Level 1: In road service, opens and closes doors,
makes proper announcements to passengers, and interacts with the Subway Operator Level 2 and the Command Center. When performing flagging duties, sets up flags and light signals, and takes other required measures for the protection of contractors performing work on or near the tracks. On the platform, patrols platforms, assists passengers in safely entering and exiting trains, and assists in the timely dispatch of trains from key stations. When performing yard work, operates hand thrown switches. Makes reports of unusual occurrences.
As a Subway Operator Level 2: Operates trains in revenue and non-revenue service, and in yard or terminal service. In revenue road service, conveys passengers over assigned routes, may make proper announcements,and open and close doors in stations and terminals. In non-revenue road service, operates work trains and revenue collection trains. In yard or terminal service, switches cars, prepares trains for road service and operates trains between yards and terminals, conveys trains to barns and shops for inspection and repair, and through car washes for cleaning. May perform duties of Level 1 as required.
Qualification Requirements
Education Requirements; Graduation from a four year high school, or it's educational equivalent, such as G.E.D. certificate.
Experience Requirements; None.
Peace,
ANDEE
Andee, if all of that comes to pass, NYCT will be not at all a friendly place to work(has it ever been?).
Consolidating the T/O and C/R titles is one step closer to MTA's ultimate goal of OPTO.
That's scary....
Doug aka BMTman
Yes it is, isn't it.
ANDEE
LOL, talk about bureaucracies gone mad!
This little tidbit of misinformation has been floating around for a few years now. It cannot come to pass without the union's consent, and the TA isn't going to get it in the forseable future.
To prove exactly how worthless OPTO truly is, RTO management was willing to trade OPTO for the Worker 1 and 2 titles last December during the contract negotiations.
For pete's sake! The Authority spends more, much more on advertising each year than they save on OPTO!
The reason the TA gives up OPTO is that it knows the TWU will not agree to it. So it brandishes OPTO to get other things.
Just like Pataki threatens to cut New York City's massive Medicaid spending, even though he's on the payroll of the Greater New York Hospital Association like everyone else. Then he gives it up to get what he really wants -- the destruction of New York City's infrastructure and a lousy education for its low and moderate income children.
Anything that reduces the amount of staffing required to get a given level of service is in the long run interest of the riders.
OK, I'll accept the pure logic of that statement. But explain the neccesity of spending more than 4 million a year on car and station advertising. Radio spots and television comercials.
Rhetorical Larry. I know where you're coming from.
Legislation for one of the capital programs (1992-96?) required that MTA advertise so people would know about the improvements all the capital spending was bringing about. Apparently it's just continued to this day.
David
[Legislation for one of the capital programs (1992-96?) required that MTA advertise so people would know about the improvements all the capital spending was bringing about. Apparently it's just continued to this day.]
Yeah, and it just happens to have the Governor's name at the bottom. Politicians are such bottom feeders! I've always thought that should be illegal.
I think people taking transit is a good thing. Furthermore, more riders, at least during non-peak hours, means more revenue. Another good thing. So I think it makes all kinds of sense for transit to advertise itself. Plenty of businesses think it makes sense to advertise, why not transit? You can't just rely on those who have to take the train - go for those who can and should take the train but have other options.
As for OPTO, a middle ground always seemed wise to me. Won't make much sense on the Queen's Boulevard line at 4:20 PM. But I am not sure having two crew on a 3 am R shuttle or a 12 noon Franklin Ave Shuttle makes a lot of sense either. If you need the second for security, I would say increasing police presence in stations at those hours is a lot more useful than keeping two crew on the train...
As the new subway cars have more electronics to aid the operator and if they modernize the signals and get ATO it makes sense to reduce manning. Why pay for unnecessary personnel when the money could be used for reducing the subsidy or increasing service. It could even be used on a new route (any new route, just build one that has been studied to death over the past 30 years.) If a new line is completed they will need people to run it. In the long run that may even increase employment.
That topic surfaces quite a bit here. Just saw "BLADE" with Wesley Snipes as a vampire/ vampire hunter. In this scene, he and a female doctor are running into the subway through some tunnels. They wind up in a modern looking, flourescent lit curved tunnel. As Wesley and his partner battle the pursuer, there is a red train zooming bye. This train must have been 50 cars long! After it goes through, they jump onto the road bed, which is single tracked. We hear a horn and see on the walls of the curved tunnel the beams of two moving headlights, meaning another tran is approaching. Soon the "redbird" rounds the curve, looking pretty good too. Again another 50 car train! Goes on endlessly. Wesley and partner finally grab hold of the last car's pantograph gate and manage to crawl into the train, an R27/30!
Fun stuff.
JCaronetti
The outside shots of the "Redbird" was a CGI effect.
The interior scenes were no doubt probably filmed aboard one of the now derelict R27/30 cars sitting in a lot in Glendale, Ca.
BTW, Snipes has a trio of subway-related films to his credits: Michael Jackson's "Bad" Video; "The Money Train"; "Blade"
Doug aka BMTman
Remember Nighthawk's with SLY Stallone from the early 80's. He and his partner go done a shaft and through a tunnel (supposed to be the 63rd street tunnel and hop on an R1/9 !!!!!!
That was Nighthawks, and as he hops on the end of an R-1/9 he breaks the glass on the stormdoor and reaches in and opens the door. As DOUG aka BMT MAN would say. Holy technical screwups, Batman!
Peace,
ANDEE
I think the only reason the Museum R-1/9s were used in Nighthawks in the first place was because the script called for Stallone to kick in that storm door window. The TA probably didn't like the idea of someone doing that to a car in revenue service. Then again, the R-1s and R-4s had huge panes of glass on their storm doors, which were certainly bigger than later railfan windows. Whatever the reason, my heart leaped into my throat when I saw Stallone do that in the movie for the first time.
Anyone have real info on the testing?
Good/bad/so-so ??????????????????
Posting the same question every day won't get it answered. Someone having something to say will get it answered.
I have something to say: one more five-car R-142 unit and one more five-car R-142A unit were delivered this week. As of today they were still under wraps at the E. 180th Street Shop.
David
What were the max speed that could be optain in each power position before they remove field shunting?
What were the max speeds that could be reached in switch, series and parallel?
Also, I heard from some operators that you should not operate in switch position for too long because it could overheat the cam.
How does this cause the cam to overheat?
Switch position causes the car to run (in series) without cutting out any resistance. Thus all of the motor current is flowing through the resistance under the car. At roughly 400 amps and 3 ohms of resistance, that I**2xR formula gives 120000 watts worth of heat to dissapate. Check out how hot a 60 watt light bulb gets, then imagine 2000 of them in a space 2' high, 2' wide and 8' long. And remember that a light bulb converts some of its energy to light. The best you get out of the grids is a dull cherry glow - except for the brief white flash and accompanying blue arc as they burn open. None of the above is true for chopper control - which can be operated at any speed as long as the thyristor holds up.
Trains will run at about 15 - 20 mph in series. Top speed in parallel with shunts depends on the size of the car, motors and gearing but 50 to 55 is typical on straight, level track.
Gerry
Does anyone have an update status on the 142's?
Any problems detected?
Major or minor?
I noticed, or seemed to notice, something unusual in the Flushing yards along the LIRR tracks. As the train flashed by, I thought I saw some cars in a string of redbirds that were painted brown. I couldn't get a good look.
Are there older cars there, or just cars with a different paint job?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'll be riding the PW branch in about 2 hours, I'll check it out.
Kevin,
No brown trains at 6pm.
I remember a book from my childhood that was premised on the fantasy of two children, a brother and sister I think, standing by the front window of a subway car and being transported back in time to Olde New Amsterdam - ala' Peter Minuet. Anybody have any memories of this book?
was it writting by an avid reader? anh contaned the story of a young heypaul and BMT
When I was in elementary school in the early 60's there was a children's book in both my school library and the public library called "Barto Takes The Subway". There was alotta pictures of a kid Barto, taking the subway for the first time. All the pictures were IRT and all were post war (No Low or High V's) trains. Between the 2 libraries I must have taken that book out over a hundred times!!!
When I was in first grade, our nun read us a story of some kid trying to find his way home in some city, and how he found himself watching people putting 15 cents in a turnstile. He put three nickels in and went through. It didn't say anything about New York or the subway, although the fare actually was 15 cents at the time. Of course, tokens came into use in New York along with the 15-cent fare, so that can be ruled out.
Jeff, I still have a copy of "Barto Takes the Subway". I remember I liked it so much my folks gave me a copy of it for one of my birthdays when I was in grade school.
Whatever company published it originally could make a fortune by re-issuing it and having them for sale in the Transit Museum stores.
Maybe I should put my copy up for sale at ebay! (Just kidding)
Doug aka BMTman
Wow, I can't believe someone still has it. I haven't seen it since elementary school in the early 60's. Was I right about all the pictures being post war IRT cars?
interesting at how many posts with no attacks and or insults about childhood subway experences etc ...... but when some of us talk about or childhood railfan- window past and present enjoyment with the last of the redbirds and other r 38 and older cars and our
experences with r-1 thru r-9s and lov v all with railfan windows etc..... then out come the killfie experts and personal attacks and insults !! ( very interesting )....
Try Barnes and Nobel's web site: www.barnesandnoble.com. In their rare and out of print offerings, ONE copy of this book is available.
First come, first served!
Yes, the pics are mostly of R-15's on (I believe) the Jerome Ave. line.
My copy is in very good/near mint condition (hasn't been touched since I was a kid). I'm still amazed that it was never reissued, since aside from pictures of the older rolling stock, the story of a young boy riding the subway for the first time, is something that would be relevant even today.
Doug aka BMTman
I have that book! When I was 3, in my pre-school, I liked the book so much (the pictures) the teacher gave me the book. I also used to make subway cars out of those big wooden blocks, and look forward to the ride home with mom on 'the shiny train with the blue doors'. My copy has a NY Public Library stamp, but no withdrawn stamp (no card for return dates either, though). I love those pictures of R-17s on the Phelham Line, even if they are BW. I cannot find my copy of book since I packed it during repainting, I assume its with my 1987(8) 'Transit Digest'. I memorized the text, and even the pictures (off hand I remember 'Cross at the green, not in between', the interior shots, the old token booths, the old turnstyles (same ones 63rd drive had until 1996), the 35c fare, the sign that said 'Local' and 'Express', etc.)
Just got back from my first ride on the Hudson-Hudson Light Rail. I got on at Exchange Place and went as far as Liberty State Park. Time constraints required me to turn back at that point. Some observations and questions:
1. Didn't care for the ticket vending machines. The one I used kept rejecting my dollar bill, which was only slightly wrinkled (and later worked fine on PATH). Printing the ticket took at least 15 seconds, rather longer than it should have. I also don't see why there's a separate machine for validation - couldn't the TVM's handle that step as well?
2. The cars are really nice. Big windows, decent seating, and a (sort-of) railfan window. I sure hope they stay clean and scratchitti-free.
3. The line uses concrete ties except in the vicinity of switches, where they're wood. Is it too difficult to get extra-length concrete ties for use around switches?
4. The TV monitor in the operator's area shows the sides of the train when the doors are open - but shuts off the moment the doors close. That seems like a bit of a safety hazard, as the operator can't check to see if anyone's being dragged.
5. Train speeds are a lot slower than I would have expected. The trip to LSP took over ten minutes, for what can't be more than a couple of miles. I know it's been said that speeds pick up south of LSP. Guess that's something to check out on my next trip.
6. Ridership didn't seem too bad for a midday train. The outbound train, which was heading for Bayonne, had about 20 riders when we left Exchange Place. There were maybe 10 to 15 on the inbound train; I don't know whether it originated in Bayonne or at West Side Avenue. On the other hand, the park 'n' ride lots at LSP were nearly deserted.
7. Headways were a lot shorter than I would have expected. We passed three trains going in the opposite direction on the outbound trip, four on the inbound.
8. Jersey City itself had a lot of new construction. As John Bredin noted, the area just north of LSP is still pretty barren, but seeing as how development is proceeding elsewhere, I predict it won't be barren for much longer. One u/c building just past Essex Street was advertising condominiums _starting_ at $299,000!
9. That Katyn statue at Exchange Place is something else again!
10. The PATH escalator at Exchange Place is longer than anything I've seen on the NYC subway. It reminded me of the DC Metro.
11. On my return trip, I just missed a WTC-bound PATH train. But not to worry, another one pulled into the station in _less than one minute_! You sure won't see those headways any more on the subway.
12. Maritime activity in Brooklyn might be on the upswing. I saw a Wallenius Line auto carrier at the docks in Red Hook. Assuming it wasn't there just for repairs or something, its presence was a good sign - as far as I know, it's been decades since autos have been shipped through the Brooklyn docks.
"I also don't see why there's a separate machine for validation - couldn't the TVM's handle that step as well?"
Many buy tickets in advance for future trips.
You should have rode further, the ride south of Liberty Pk. actually gets up to 55 mph. Especialy on the 34th st branch
[You should have rode further, the ride south of Liberty Pk. actually gets up to 55 mph. Especialy on the 34th st branch]
I really wish I could have, but I already had stretched my lunch "hour" to the breaking point :-)
You should have rode further, the ride south of Liberty Pk. actually gets up to 55 mph. Especialy on the 34th st branch
2. The cars are really nice. Big windows, decent seating, and a (sort-of) railfanWindow. I sure hope they stay clean and scratchitti-free.
They have that so-called scraficial layer on them
4. The TV monitor in the operator's area shows the sides of the train when the doors are open - but shuts off the moment the doors close. That seems like a bit of a safety hazard, as the operator can't check to see if anyone's being dragged.
This is not the same on all trains it seems to be up to the operator
5. Train speeds are a lot slower than I would have expected. The trip to LSP took over ten minutes, for what can't be more than a couple of miles. I know it's been said that speeds pick up south of LSP. Guess that's something to check out on my next trip.
Yes you MUST
7. Headways were a lot shorter than I would have expected. We passed three trains going in the opposite direction on the outbound trip, four on the inbound.
It's new
9. That Katyn statue at Exchange Place is something else again!
Yes it is
10. The PATH escalator at Exchange Place is longer than anything I've seen on the NYC subway. It reminded me of the DC Metro.
Contact heypaul on this, he is the expert
11. On my return trip, I just missed a WTC-bound PATH train. But not to worry, another one pulled into the station in _less than one minute_! You sure won't see those headways any more on the subway.
N0 argument here
Peace,
ANDEE
point 11. on the path the train from newark follows from hoboken train. you missed the hoboken train and newark train was waiting in the tube. there might have been a longer wait after the newark train.
10. The same folks that cast the DC Metro stations on the Red and Green Lines (the Arch I,II,III designs) did the coffers on the PATH escalator link at Exchange Place.
wayne
Does anyone know if the current proposal for a new Second Avenue subway includes a line up Third Avenue in the Bronx? I think such a new line was originally intended when the old "El" was torn down.
This afternoon I got off at Stillwell Ave. and as I left the station, I watched a mini-Bobcat destroy the wooden token booth at the entrance to the station. Another piece of TA history gone!
Is the one at the Lexingtn IRT's Wall St. stop original or is it a replica?
Chris,
It is 100% original(the outside of it anyway) and so is the old ticket chooper box to the right of it.
I seems stupid of the TA to wreck something it could have sold. It should have posted it on E-bay.
It would have gone great with heypauls R-9 cab ! He could have charged a fare for visitors to his apartment ... but only the old token with the Y cut out :0)
Mr t
Many years ago I was involved in the extraction of a wooden token booth from Park St. Station in Boston (IIRC for Connecticut Trolley Museum). If someone bought one of these at auction, or at a TA surplus sale, they would have a project getting it out of the station. Those things are HEAVY! That may be the reason why it wasn't sold.
Gerry
Fortunately, I did squeeze off a shot of that booth on a visit last summer. Now if I can find it...I got hundreds of photos here....
They haven't noticed the ancient sign yet have they?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Oooohhhhhhhh noooooooooo.
Was that the "Rotunda" booth? The bastards!
Wayne
I finally had a chance to ride the new Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Line from Exchange Place to East 34 Street,Bayonne. The line seems to be very well built and even has some street running in Jersey City.(I guess thats why we used to call them streetcars) The run is rather slow from Exchange Place to Liberty State Park but them opens up rather nicely,still the LRV's don't seem to have half the zip of the PCC's on the Newark City Subway. The cars are articulated with a short middle section over the truck. Older trolley fans will remember certain trolleys had this configuration and were referred to as "two rooms and a bath." The seats are of a very hard fibreglass with a thin material cover,not like the nice soft ones on the PCC's. The fare is $1.50 each way prepaid at a machine. The station at Exchange Place is right next to the PATH station so an easy connection can be made. The line surprisingly is not run by NJT but by the 21st Century Rail Corporation. This is rather strange as NJT has been running another light rail line for years. I wonder if the operators are NJT employees or not?
Larry,RedbirdR33
La
The Hudson-Bergen Light Rail operators are employed by the Raytheon Corporation/21st Century Rail.
I have applied to be a operator and I'm due to start in the summer.
R142 Boi 2K
Good luck in being an operator! You'll have fun, I'm sure!
Chuck Greene
hey larry... according to some snooping around i was doing yesterday, 21st century corp designed, built, now operates, and will maintain hblr for 15 years... i don't think the train operators work for jersey transit... somewhere i read that this was a plus for the line in that it kept wages down
larry, you know i am quite a nut when it comes to the old equipment compared to the new equipment... and i really like the whole feel of the pcc's both here and in boston... but i really don't think the pcc's have the power that the hblr cars do... they can really get up to 55 pretty fast... and they are really quiet... i don't know what the newark pcc's would sound like doing 55... do you know what the max speed of a pcc is?
i read somewhere on the internet, that they may be moving the first pair of the new cars over to the newark subway by truck soon for testing... i think it was at railpace
Paul: I don't know what the top speed is for the Newark PCC's. I was over there yesterday during the rush and there were fifteen cars in service. They were zipping through Warren Street Station. I hope I can move that fast when I'm their age.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Balancing speed on PCC's is usually 42 MPH, Shunted allows Higher MPH. I believe the Newark cars are fully shunted.
Baltimore's cars were clocked in the suburbs at over 55 (downgrade on York Road from Stevenson Lane) and in the high 50's on Falls Road in the 1940's. Speeds in excess of 50 MPH were clocked on Frederick Road in Catonsville in the last years of operation.
I once operated a 3 car train of PCC's on the Shaker Rapid, downgrade from Shaker Square (inbound to Cleveland Union Terminal). We were stop-watched at 63 MPH passing under the E116th st bridge.
04/27/2000
[I once operated a 3 car train of PCC's on the Shaker Rapid, downgrade from Shaker Square (inbound to Cleveland Union Terminal). We were stop-watched at 63 MPH passing under the E116th st bridge.]
This is one of the few times you can't say I'm R-68 bashing but a PCC doing 63 MPH is faster than an R-68! That must have been some ride.
Bill Newkirk
It was a 3-car train of PCC's, two Pullman's and a Minneapolis. The inbound line is downgrade from Shaker Square, and I held power until passing under E116th Street. That's where we got the 63 MPH stopwatch reading. I immediately went to dynamic brake, which was held to E79th Street. We went through the E55 junction tunnels at 40, and entered the CTS Rapid (with 2 green signals) at 35. From E55 we ran at signal speed, which worked out to balancing speed, or 42 MPH.
Regardless, a fun trip for all. One of the Shaker trainmasters said he had never gone down the hill that fast.
Are you kidding? That's TWICE as fast as a you-know-what.:-)
Make that THREE times as fast as a you know what...
HONK! HONK! HONK!
MAKE THAT THREE HARD BOILED EGGS!
wayne ;ogt
How is balancing speed defined? What does that refer to? What happens above balancing speed? It seems to me that the PCC's should be able to go over 42mph. I remember seeing balancinc speed listed for an R40 in another post and it too seemed low.
Balancing speed is the point where a series wound DC motor is running at the point where the electromagnetic force being produced equals the counter EMF that is generated by the motor fields. At that point the motor cannot run any faster, and is said to be "balanced". For PCC cars that translates to 42 MPH.
To get a DC Series Wound motor to exceed balancing speed uses what is called "Field Shunting". With Field shunting, part of the motor's field is shunted, which weakens the field. This allows the motor to speed up until the new balacing speed is reached.
Never missing an opportunity to drift into electrical obscurity....
I'll accept your explanation of what balancing speed means to the
end-user, but not the theory behind it. BUT, it's a pain to
typeset equations in HTML, so.....
I'll offer another analogy....if you are riding a fixed-gear
(1 speed) bicycle on level ground, there comes a point where
the motor (you) just can't pedal any faster. You can produce
just enough power to keep the bike moving at a constant speed,
and you are "balanced" against the forces of air drag,
rolling friction, etc. that try to slow you down.
You can change the equation by shifting gears. This gives you
less leverage but since you are cruising on level ground you
don't need it. That's analogous to field shunting.
Answering the original question. Balancing speed is defined as
the speed which a car or train will eventually top out at assuming
a level, tangent (straight) track, no prevailing wind, and
average loading. It is affected by the aerodynamic design of the
vehicle, friction losses in the bearings and gearboxes, track
resistance forces due to hunting, etc., but is predominantly
determined by the total horsepower per car divided by the gear
reduction ratio, as well as the degree of field shunting.
In today's NYCT system, cars run without field shunting in motoring,
thus reducing the balancing speed by about 10 MPH. I am not
aware of any other modern or quasi-modern traction operation that
runs series-wound DC motors without the benefit of field shunting.
The closest thing I can think of is the 900 series cars in New Orleans
which, I think, are using K controllers.
Why did the TA do away with field shunting?
The Williamsburg Bridge accident in 1995 probably had more to do with it than anything else. Or putting it differently, it was the last straw. IMHO, the TA overreacted, but that's as far as I'm going to go on this.
More specifically, the Authority modified the brakes so that the stopping would be as severe, this would save lots of money on flat wheels and worn shoes. With this, the highest speed trains could no longer stop in time with the existing blocks. They fixed that by slowing them down.
I think you meant to say "stopping would be not as severe".
A layman's simple explanation of balancing speed for, say, a subway train:
"The speed the train will attain at full throttle on a straight, level track."
The balancing speed of a BMT Standard was (I was told) 50 mph. So a BMT Standard on straight level track with the controller in multiple and no countervailing force, like having to pull a dead R68 with flat wheels, would eventually reach 50 mph, and stay at that speed as long as the throttle was open and nothing else impinged on its momentum.
Another speed was also given for most equipment: "motor speed," which is the speed of a train at full throttle going downhil on a moderate grade, for a BMT Standard, 55 mph. Presumably, this means that the electrical forces inside the motor would act as a dynamic brake above that speed to slow the train down, rather like downshifting in a car or truck.
The balancing speed of a BMT Standard was (I was told) 50 mph.
No way! The standards were very slow. According to the electric
railway journal articles in 1914 describing the car, the balancing
speed was about 40.
Another speed was also given for most equipment: "motor speed," which is the speed of a train at full throttle
going downhil on a moderate grade, for a BMT Standard, 55 mph. Presumably, this means that the electrical forces
inside the motor would act as a dynamic brake above that speed to slow the train down, rather like downshifting in
a car or truck.
I've never heard that term. Electrically, that simply wouldn't
happen. In order for the motors to produce braking torque, the
direction of current flow through the fields relative to the
armature has to be reversed. However, this term might refer to
the limit on the maximum downgrade speed, which is the point at
which the motors are turning so fast that they fly apart.
I wouldn't say the BMT standards were slow. Then again, I rode on them only on the Canarsie line, whose stations aren't all that far apart. Their acceleration wasn't bad, and they would reach 50 mph in the 14th St. tunnel - at its lowest point. They weren't speedsters by any means, but OTOH they weren't slowpokes, either.
(Newark PCC's shunted)
Shunted? It sure feels like they're shunted! They go more than 45MPH, esp. in the stretch north of Orange.
Wayne
The 16 New Kinki Sharyo Cars slated for the Newark City Subway is already at the New Facility. They are waiting to complete the connection at Franklin Avenue before testing a set of the new cars. Even though the cars are identical in exterior and interior look, the mechanics of it are different then the ones on the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail (i.e. Trucks, Couplers, etc.)
R142 Boi 2K
Only 16 cars to replace at least 25 PCC's? Grant it the Kinkisharyos are bigger, but won't this mean less headway between cars?
Did you get unit numbers for the Newark Kinkisharyos? 2000 series or other (i.e. 2100) series?
Wayne
04/27/2000
[Did you get unit numbers for the Newark Kinkisharyos? 2000 series or other (i.e. 2100) series? ]
I believe they (Newark LRV's) are numbered in the 100 series.
Bill Newkirk
Heypaul, do you still have that tape recorder handy? Sounds like a golden opportunity to record some PCC sounds.
hey steve... an interesting thought... i have a walkman that is recording... with a lapel mike it really picks up sound... i am not sure that the running sounds of the pcc's are quite as distinctive... but i do know that when they operate at speed they do have a rumbling sound... i will give it a try next time i'm on it... thanks paul
[The run is rather slow from Exchange Place to Liberty State Park but them opens up rather nicely,still the LRV's don't seem to have half the zip of the PCC's on the Newark City Subway.]
I too rode it for the first time this afternoon, and you're definitely right about the slowness. Exchange Place to LSP was over ten minutes for what probably isn't even two miles. Because of time constraints, I had to get off at LSP.
i took my bike to exchange place today... having failed in 5 previous visits to find the hblr, i figured i would be able to cover more ground in my
search with my tricycle... unfortunately on the way up on the escalator, i was paying more attention to the strange way people looked on their way going down, and lost my hold on the trike... it fell down the escalator and sent approximately 30 people to the hospital...(not true)
anyway, i was roaming all over jersey city, and a little east of the liberty state park stop, i noticed several large deco buildings off to the east... from a distance i wasn't sure if they were modern buildings designed with a deco touch or real old buildings... eager to get over there to see, i turned on the red stroboscopic light that i have on top of the metal helmet that i wear to protect me from cosmic rays...i also engaged all 10 used metrocards into the spokes, and pressed the C key on the handle bars of my tricycle so as to get the traffic lights to change... i was thus able to reach the hospital which was about 1 mile away in less than an hour...
the jersey city medical center is really remarkable... there are at least four 20+ story massive deco buildings... from what i later read in the barnes and noble in hoboken, these buildings were built during the depression in the 30's... they have such a massive brooding appearance right out of the 30's... i instantly fell in love with the place... i would have loved to roam around the buildings and just explore the place... unfortunately i did not have my ez-neuropsych pass which allows me immediate admission into any psychiatric ward...
does anyone know any sources of info about these buildings history?... from what i read they were never fully utilized due to their large size...i guess they overbuilt it as a way of keeping people working during the depression... several buildings now are abandoned or being used for other purposes... and apparently there are plans to build a new facility to replace it... i read that they are on the national historic landmarks list...
How did you ride your bike through those narrow streets of jersy city ?? man!!!!
you are toughter than me !!
heypaul that no place for any living creature!!! if you end up there you won't be living for too much longer
I have heard that the Ronkonkoma Train Engineers have been ordered not to use the Main line this weekend because of Signal work. I called the Travel info office, and the guy said they will be using the Babylon branch and then reverse. Will the Engineer have to walk to the opposite cab? or will there be 2 engineers per Train 2 Ronkonkoma?
I posted that the other day after I read the notice. It seems like it would be a great railfan trip, even better than the "B" running on the Sea Beach middle track! The trains (all tri-levels, since the Central branch is not electric) will go from Jamaica to Babylon via the South Shore line, then reverse up the Central Line track to Farmingdale, then reverse again to Ronkonkoma. The signal work is at Hicksville so there will be shuttle buses from Westbury to Hicksville and Bethpage on the Ronk Line and also buses on the whole Huntington line E/O Westbury.
I have heard that Long Island Railroad is making Signal improvements on the Main line. However, They have been orderded to use the Babylon-Montauk Trackage line. (St albans, Lynbrook, and the other stops...) My question is will they have 2 engineers 2 a Train, or will one Engineer soley have to go back and forth betweeen Cabs. This will be a sight, since I live at the Rosedale Station where those lines run.
Probably 2 engineers, one in each engine. If the engineer had to go from one end to the other on an 8 car train twice, the train would not make it to Farmingdale in an hour.
Sidenote: They will be using 4 dual mode sets travelling back and forth to Penn, and one non-dual mode set that will pick up at Woodside on outbound trips, but will go OOS at Jamaica on inbound trips. Assuming that the DM sets are the same as the rush hour ones, you will be seeing 8 car bilevels with 2 engines fly by your house.
One odd thing is that Greenport passengers will be transferring from one diesel train to another.
Wasn't that normal before they electrified the line in the late 80's. They had the Greenport scoot back then.
I remember the last Railfan trip I took on the LIRR's Far Rockaway line, because it is the Closest to my house which is near the Rosedale station. I went to Far Rockaway once on the Long Island Railroad, and I saw something that I couldn't explain. The Engineer arrived at the Far Rockaway Station, and he didn't apply the Train's Emergency brakes as ususal. He did a quick hand motion, and put the Train's brake handle into full service and then removed his key at the same time. He did it as fast as one, two, three!. The Train didn't make it's "CHOW" Emergency brake sound as usual. The brake pressure remained in 80lbs(Full service) and the Air pressure remained at 110 like normal. When it was time to depart Far Rockaway, he just inserted his key in the opposite cab, and then just released the brakes and then pulled off. EXPLAIN THIS SOMEONE?
Engineer was trying to save time by not having to charge up the brakes when he got to the other end of the train.
My frequent reference use of my soft cover transit books has resulted in the bindings separating, and some pages falling out. Has anyone else had this problem? My copies of "The Brooklyn Elevated" and "They Moved the Millions" seem to be in the worst shape.
Does anyone know of any good repair methods, or is it necessary to try to buy a brand new copy of a book that may be now out of print?
I have used the bookbinding techniques I learned as a graduate assistant (working in the Swem Library at William and Mary) to rebind several paperbacks into hardcover bindings. Basically, after removing the covers, I reglued the spine, attaching a piece of library cloth directly to the spine and then sewing the edges of the library cloth to a hard cover assembly that I had previously made. It takes me about two hours per book, and I've done probably a thousand over the last twenty-five years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For one or two pages falling out of the so-called "perfect binding"
(paperback) books, the best repair is to tip-in the page.
Get some library-grade vinyl adhesive such as Norbond and lightly
coat the inside edge of the page about 1/16", then slide the page
in and work it back and forth to seat it.
For books that are further gone you usually have to peel off all
the old glue from the spine and reglue, using a piece of heavy
paper or library cloth as suggested and then gluing the covers
on to the cloth. It helps to have a press to keep the binding
tight while the glue dries.
Thanks Jeff & Anon,
I tried to repair a hardcover book many years ago, and used the wrong type of glue. I also used too much of it. The glue I used had no flexibility, which is apparently one of the secrets of book repair. My disasterous result has prevented me from attempting to repair these.
Anon, This Norbond vinyl adhesive that Jeff refers to, is that what you had your best results with? I really love these books, and would like to get them back into one piece again.
Norbond is one of several brands out there - it's certainly the most readily available, and works as well as the others. If you were concerned about its long-term chemical stability and interaction with paper - what it will do to paper over the next 500 years - it's not the brand of choice, but for what most people (and libraries) want and need it's fine. I still have a bottle of ReBind from Miller Adhesives, but they've been bought by someone else and I don't have a current catalogue of library supplies to tell you who makes it now. That stuff's expensive, though - about four times the cost of Norbond, IIRC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon,
My wife told me at lunch that she learned that our new neighbor down the street works at the college library in town. I will try to meet them this weekend, I may have a source right here on my own road.
Thanks A Lot!
There's a chat on #metrocard on right now! Wednesday is chat night 2 every week
<"http://chat.cjb.net/metrocard">chat.cjb.net/metrocard
OR
irc.cjb.net
6667
#metrocard
You can read transcripts to tonight's chat at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~onlyjoex
Click on one of the two files, the log is broken by midnight.
I rode the Newark City Subway on Tuesday,April 25,2000. Work on the center platform at Franklin Avenue continues although the canopy has now been erected. There is still only a one track connection from the loop to the extension. As it was near the pm rush fifteen cars were in service; 1-2-4-6-7-9-10-11-19-20-21-22-23-24 and 26. Laid up at Penn Station I saw five more;5-13-17-25 and 28.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Is the extension of the Newark subway to the new Maintenance facility going to be a non-revenue access or will there be a carstop on the new trackage.
There is going to be a park-and-ride between the current end and the maintenance facility.
Why wasn,t this line converted into an extension of the PATH, and make it a real subway line?
avid
The subway is owned by the City of Newark and is built in the bed of the abandoned Morris Canal. It was operated by Public Service Coordinated Transport. Hence, a separate corporate entity from PATH/H&M. It was built as a streetcar feeder/distributor, but with provision for conversion to heavy rail like PATH.
The real question is why wasn't it abandoned (like the short paralleling Cedar Street subway was). My understanding is that the city kept pressure on PS to maintain the streetcars, though PS protested vigorously and even tried to pave the tunnel for buses or All-Service Vehicles (like Cedar Street was).
Hence the streetcar routes (21 Orange via Warren, 23 Central, 21 Orange via Orange, and 29 Bloomfield) that once fed into the subway were bustituted and now reach downtown via streets.
I would have to think that by the time the tunnel's role as a streetcar trunk line had vanished the H&M was in financial trouble, and city subway ridership was low enough to be handled by streetcars. Of course the PA had/has no interest in extending PATH so now the point is moot.
Hi
Does anyone have a Drawing of the new Alignment for the Extension,,,and present day Alignment,,Circa March 2000
THanks
Steve
Hi
Does anyone have an Updated Track Map of the system,showing the changes/new stations ,,etc
Thanks
Steve
PCC 25 was spotted, eh? I hear she hadn't been feeling well. OR MAYBE (just Maybe) someone read this board - Jan Lorenzen had an idea as to what was making her buck; I wonder if they fixed her. He mentioned that it might be something with a 7A finger, whatever that is - no doubt an electrical part of some sort.
They could use a resident Trolleysmith there, like they have at Branford and Shore Line.
Wayne
Service on Metro-North's Upper Harlem Line north of Dover Plains is tenatively scheduled to begin on or about July 8,2000. There will be two stations on the re-openned line which is currently referred to as the "Wassaic Extension." but will probably. They will be "Tenmile River" which will approximate the location of the former "State School" stop and Wassaic.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Would anyone know if the new cars on the HBLR have been assigned a name or class number or are they simply using the generic LRV designation. Thanks,
Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't know if they're carrying any "class" designation - (the last "Class" in that area of the world was the "K" class of the PATH) but this much I DO know:
* The cars are made by Kinkisharyo of Japan
* They start with #2001
* They have "A" and "B" designations at each end (i.e. 2001A, 2009B); the little section in the middle doesn't have a designation.
Wayne
04/26/2000
I stopped by the Transit Museum gift shop in Grand Central station today and checked out the new display in the gallery area featuring the photographic works of O.Winston Link. The images are black & white with some color, mostly steam and some Verrazano and Triborough bridge shots. The images are classics and worth the visit. I recommend a visit and check out his classic works.
Bill Newkirk
example : i own 4 eight 8 mm camcorders a samsung sck 60 .......2 light lux minimum !!
...... a sony tr 86 ..........0.6....light lux minimum.......
... sony tr 940 hi-8 but 1 or 2 light lux minimum ..
...... a sony trv xr 66 ........2 light lux minimum
the sony tr 86 "" really lights up "
""the subway tunnels the best "" but it is a 1986-1987 camera !!
...........0.6 ......... light lux is not like "" nightshot " which is green black and white ....
but the trv 66 has a candle light 0 mode however it seems to """""""strobe too much """"
the tr 86 needs to have the tripod threads replaced so i have no choice !!
when i return this fall the old timer wins hands down !!! ( the tr 86 ) what do you think vidieomaker experts ??
_________________________________________________________________________________!!!
I have a full-size VHS, a 1988 RCA, and it does pretty good doing night scenes. I believe it is a 2 lux unit. I did use this unit for some cab ride videos I did on the southern California Metrolink system a few years ago (shooting entire routes from locomotive cabs) and on a couple routes there are tunnels. It didn't do too bad, you could always make out the rails, etc.
I also have a Sony TRV-512 that does pretty well at night -- it has a "backlight" feature that, if activated at night, will bring out the dark spots in a scene. While I haven't done any rail video work with this unit, I did some night shots around the roller coaster at the state line on I-15, and it really came out well even with a lot of background lighting in parking lots, etc.
Hi8 has a better picture resolution than straight 8mm, so go for that if you can. That would mean the use of the TR940 you have (or the TRV-66). I have the Sony TRV-65 (same as the 66, a few months older), a Hi-8 unit with a 0 lux rating, and I don't have any strobing problems. Try focusing your camera into the headlights of the train and use that light to help brighten up the picture. Also, many of the tunnels now have mercury vapor or sodium lighting which is considerably brighter than the incandescent lighting that used to proliferate throughout the system, so the Lux rating may not be as important.
Now back to our regularly scheduled transit report ... :)
--Mark
i agree with you on my ....... tr940 hi8 ..... and trv66hi8 ( xr ).......... however at Normal setings with a standard lo
0.6 ( without nightshot and or candelignt setting ) why does the older less high tech sony tr 86 ..
light up the underground subway tunnel the best ??
i prefer my 940 and 66 when i shoot conventions etc.... and when i shoot my marching drum section out here
many times pratices are held at night so the ""nightshot""and candle light shot seems to make up for poor
lighting even with the camera light on !! ( 12 volt converter )
could i send you a some of my best shots between the two vidieocameras and would you then tell me your
opinion as to which camera performed bets on my subway vidieos ??
anyway i would like your say on the results as i have to travel from the west coast when i do ??
Yes, you can send them to me. I'll contact you off-line.
--Mark
right !!! send it to my e mail i will send the tape to your address listed on nyc subway resources !
i will have to have the body repaired on the tr 86 ( base threads ) ........
The R142s were being tested today on the ROCKAWAY LINE! The Bombardier set spent the day running from just S. of Howard Beach to Broad Channel, on the Southbound track BOTH DIRECTIONS until about 2:30. At about 12:15 they pulled into Howard Beach Station and the testing crew all got off. The only time a S.bound Far Rockaway Shuttle could pass was when it was on the Southbound Express track just before the North Channel bridge. While the 142 was between the North Channel Br. and Broad Channel, nothing moved in either direction! Norhbound shuttles to Rockaway Blvd had to wait for it to go all the way to Broad Channel and get back to the N. Channel bridge before they could head north, even though the 142 was on the Southbound track and the As were using the correct track in both directions. The 142 stayed in Broad Channel for 12 seconds before reversing back up the southbound track.
Question 1: Why?
Question 2: What is the fastest way they could have gotten back to their home in 180st?
P.S. I have pictures, though I am a lousy photographer. After first seeing them at 11:56 I had to spend every dime I had on a one-time-use camera. I will post the pictures later this week.
1. Because :-)
There's a test track on the Rockaway Line, specifically intended for testing new cars. R-142s or R-142As are out there on a regular basis.
2. How about: Up to 207 St Yard, onto the Broadway IRT via the flyover, change ends, down to 96 St, change ends, up to E. 180 St?
David
Test track's not finished yet. It was using the southbound main track both directions. That's partly why the reduced Rockaway service midday and weekend. Most of the time 142s use the Bronx test track, though maybe the addition of the 2 more sets (read in another post) may have caused testing to be moved here? 12 vehicle work train with 3 engines and 3 rider cars, as well as 6 cars with track parked on southbound express track at Howard Beach show that they are doing some sort of track work.
Thanks for the update. I was told the test track in the Rockaways was finished. At any rate, the new cars are supposed to be tested in the Rockaways, as well as on the Dyre Avenue Line.
David
Two ways come to mind
1 - A to 207th street, on to the 1/9 to 96th st, then up to 180th
2 - A/D to Bedford park, on to 4 to 138th st, then up to 180th
Yup, the R142s and R142As are there for speed tests. Were they going fast? Can you make a comparison to the A Line Shuttles?
They were going WAY fast! The time span between the instance I first saw the 142's headlights and its arrival at Broad Channel was at least 30 seconds less than that of the R-44 (I don't remember the exact times, I should have written them down - yes, I was timing it).
They probably (they ARE IRT cars) would leave any R44 "H" train in the dust. An R38 "H" they would have given a run for its money and an R10 (hypothetical) "H" train - it would have been a photo finish, especially a jackrabbit like #2974 (ex.1828) or #3010.
Wayne
I wonder how they'd stack up against the slant R-40s. It'll be interesting to see just how they do in revenue service along, say, the upper Lexington Ave. stretch or the Park Ave. straightaway.
Saw them on the Rockaway Line this past Tuesday (25 April). Took a couple of pictures, the second being with R38 #4118 in the immediate foreground. They haven't been developed yet. I also recorded the sounds it made. The sounds of the R142 and the doors closing on the R38. Sounded cool. The sounds are already up on my Subway Sounds 2000 page (look under the heading "R-142 Sounds!"). The pictures will be posted here, and on my Transit Pictures 6 page (film undeveloped).
Speaking of transit pictures, Transit Pictures 5 will be up either tomorrow or Wednesday. Featuring, among other things, an A train at Delancey Street (NOT A TYPO!) and F trains at Avenue C. Stay tuned.
Coming in Transit Pictures 6, A view from Track F6 on Hammel's Wye, the R-142 at Broad Channel, and a B35 (bus) in the Triangle. It will be online probably by Friday or next Monday.
An A train at Delancey Street.
An R68 that can't decide whether it's a K or an L train. (It's actually an N.)
This and more at my Transit Pictures 5 page. Click here to go.
Great site! I have pictures of R-44s at Delancey and B'way Lafayette, and an R-68 signed as an M. Still being developed (by mail). My R-142 pictures will be posted within the week.
I enjoy your website, especially your story about the M going up the Manhattan Broadway express. (why didn't the M go along the normal route anyway?)
How lazy are those conductors! Are they switching from one letter to the other but then suddenly just quit between K & L!
[why didn't the M go along the normal route anyway?]
I don't know. I just heard at Court Street that the train would go up Manhattan's Broadway.
Excuse me but uh, that R-68 was NOT between K and M but between A and M. We all know that there is no K train. (Although that WOULD be interesting if the sign really did say 'K'). Nice site, how did you get the photos to display in the message window? HTML?
The following is a test of HTML:
An AEM-7
Daniel
There is no K train, but there once was. It stop running in 87.
And the previous K train rode off into the sunset in 1976.
First:
Since when was M gray like that? I's actually an L.
Second:
Why would they stick A all the way next to L? They would have to group A with all the other normal 8th Avenue lines (C & E). A would have to be further away from L that what you say it is. In alphabetical order, L does not come immediately after A. The only other blue sign that would come close to L is K, since they're right next to each other in the alphabet. That's why I say that it's stuck between K and L.
I can't see the pictures! I think you moved your website and forgot!
A train of R142 cars at Broad Channel
A train of R40 Slants outside Queensboro Plaza
Now available at my Transit Pictures 6 page Go!
Can I get a link to your index page? I've always wanted to explore your site inside out.
http://forbin.qc.edu/wcb/students/rmarrero/files/Welcome.htm
Thanks!
04/26/2000
As some of you know, this weekend a new signal system will be installed a tested on the Port Jefferson branch between Westbury and Hicksville. While the usual substitute bus service between Hicksville and Westbury is expected, an usual move on the Ronkonkoma branch. The Special Branch timetable states:
[Ronkonkoma through Farmingdale customers will board a train at their station which will operate through to Jamaica or Penn Station. These trains identified by the note "via Babylon" will operate using somewhat unusual routing via the babylon Branch. This routing will enable customers to travel to and from western terminals without using buses. However, since the trains will not follow normal routing via the Main Line customers will not have access via train to other Main Line stations such as Hicksville and Mineola.]
I guess since the Central Branch is not electrified, bi-levels with diesels or dual modes may be used. To make this simpler, trains making local stops from Ronkonkoma to Farmingdale will pull past (B) tower, change ends and run down the Central to Babylon, change ends again and run express to Jamaica. The special branch timetable shows that these "via Babylon" trains all terminate at Jamaica. I'll check this out this weekend to see if I'm right.
Bill Newkirk
Nope, my schedule shows 4 trains going to / from Penn (the weekday DM sets), followed by one that starts at Woodside and returns terminating at Jamaica. The pattern is repeated all day, so they are using 5 trains total.
04/27/2000
You're right Henry, I misread the timetable.
Bill Newkirk
Did you have a photo spread of your cab online? I'd like to show it to my mother.
go to http://www.hbeck.com/images/paulpic.jpg
I scanned it from the Daily News and put it on my site about 1 month ago...
-Harry
Paul also has it on is own site at http://community-2.webtv.net/pkronenberg When you get there click on the link R9.
04/27/2000
I picked up a new PATH map and guide at WTC yesterday. It looks good with a picture of a front of a PA-4 (?) and section of map graphic. It states at the top "Effective April 30,2000" and on the bottom left "printed 4/00". But there is one mistake, HBLR is not listed near the Exchange Place station! While stations in NYC list subway and commuter rail connections and NJ station feature much of the same, HBLR is not listed! Check this out, unless they print corrected ones overnight!
Bill Newkirk
This morning at PATHursday they were handing out new card holders; green (first time they've used green I think) with the following on them:
INAUGURAL CELEBRATION
April 15, 2000
Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
(picture of HBLR car)
1-800-626-RIDE
www.njtransit.com
Inserted on the inside is a folded map of the routes of the Hudson Bergen Light Rail, major local streets and highways, the PATH, and NJT rail (as far out as Secaucus). The back of the holder has the PATH logo and information that they've had before.
Does anyone collet these PATH card holders? I've seen these varieties so far:
Blue with white PATH logo/text (original design)
Blue with white PATH logo/text + www.panynj.gov
Yellow with black logo/text commemorating Try Transit Week 1998
Grey with red, black and yellow logo/text commemorating 1998/1999 Consecutive APTA Outstanding Achievement awards
Green with white logo/text and map insert commemorating HBLR opening
[This morning at PATHursday they were handing out new card holders; green (first time they've used green I think) with the following on them:
INAUGURAL CELEBRATION
April 15, 2000
Hudson-Bergen Light Rail]
Hmmmm, only 12 days late, I suppose that's not *too* bad!
Well they may have had them last week, but I was away. They may have even been around on opening day at some little booth/table during the festivities. As for why I just got one today, they only have "PATHursday" on Thursday. :)
As you know Dave I collect MCs, but a friend was kind enough to pick one of these up for me on the 15th.
BTW, my collection of holders is the result of folks who have nothing to trade, they give me a holder instead, so I have 1/2 a dozen various ones, incl San Fran/BART, Cleveland & NYC.
Mr t__:^)
I have one in red and white. The front cover has Monthl;y(underlined) Quick Card, The PATH Logo and Calendar Month(all caps) Only
The back cover lists the phone number and web site on the top. The back bottom shows a whuite line with PATH logo. Under the Logo and Port Authority// Trans Hudson Corporation.
Inside in the left pocket is a card with "monthly quickcard information" and gives sale dates for each calendar month.
The rules are on the back of this card.
Is the new map similar to the '80s and early '90s map, which showed all of NJT and miles from WTC?
No, it's just a stylized diagram like the ones found on the passenger info boards in stations. They should bring back those old ones, they were pretty cool.
-dave
04/27/2000
yesterday I rode HBLR from Exchange Place and did the whole system. I noticed something twice you should take notice of. When two trainsets approach the same grade crossing as the ones I rode on today, I noticed that my train completly blocked the grade crossing so the opposing train could cross. Perhaps a safety thing so no one crosses after one train passes yet gets creamed by the other? One the Westside branch, we blocked one crossing, but when the opposing train approached the grade crossing, our signal changed and the other train stopped and we proceeded. Did anyone out there notice this kind of move? I never noticed one like this on Baltimore's Central Light Rail.
Also- A question I asked on this Subtalk last week about the fare, I asked a fare inspector at Exchange Place if I toured the whole line within 90 minutes, could this be done on one ticket. the answer was yes I did tour this system on one ticket after validation. So if you haven't check out HBLR and was wondering about ticket purchases, one is only needed. Exchange Place on HBLR is only a half a block from Exchange Place (PATH) and that scary statue! The slow run through the streets of Jersey City is annoying, especially the stopping and waiting for traffic signals to change. I was wondering why not better coordination with light rail having the right of way to speed things up. But I figure this must be a safety issue so people are thoroughly AWARE of light rails prescence!
Bill Newkirk
The Hudson-Bergen light rail is operated on a Cab Signal system, so trains can not enter the same signal block at the same time, thus a train holding it's position till one passes. The Cab Signaling is not in place throughout the whole system only in certain spots.
R142 Boi 2K
You can have cars/trains in the same block with cab signaling with floating block protection. Fix Block cab signaling is somthing different.
I think Bill is refering to to passing trains on oposite tracks blocking the intersection so there is no conflicting blocks.
Bill, I'll have to take notice of the signalling business on my next trip over there (perhaps tomorrow, with Lou from Brooklyn and heypaul).
Interesting observations!
Doug aka BMTman
I'm all for it, call me tonight!!!
I saw an ad for anyone wanting to drive and rent a train. The phone number to call is 860 767 0103 which is a phone call in connecticut. Please keep in mind that this train will be driven by YOU and as such any derailment can result in injuries to YOU.
You can rent a trolley up at Brandord for $60 an hour with a minimum of 2 hours ($120) and with a pilot operate it. I've even seen renters operate between the normal service cars (every 1/2hr) once.
Don't know about the RT cars and I'm sure they would come at a higher rate >G<.
This is from my observation, check with the musuem for the facts.203-467-7635 (Charters)
Seashore has a "Be a Motorman" program, where you can learn to run a streetcar for $40. OF course, it's a better deal to become a member for $30 and go through the qualification program!
This the the Valley Railroad in Essex, Connecticut. They're run this program for several years now - it's been written up in Railfan and other places. Someone on the board a year or so ago had done it, IIRC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Give the Daily News some credit. They know a ripoff when they see it -- the MTA Capital Plan -- and won't let it go. There is yet another lead editorial on the subject today, saying the plan is a ripoff for the city, and will doom the transit system in the long run.
I strongly recommend that Subtalkers e-mail the News (try Voicers) in the opinion section and commend it for paying attention to this issue -- BEFORE instead of AFTER 1970s-style decline takes hold.
There was also an editorial in Newsday on Sunday:
http://www.newsday.com/coverage/current/books/sunday/nd4101.htm
Am I alone in wondering why the City is supposed to contribute the money from the sale of the Coliseum to support a capital plan that mostly benefits the LIRR? And for that matter, I'm still waiting to hear why they're spending $4.8 billion and ten years to tunnel one mile and build new platforms at GCT when there's already plenty of tunnel and platform capacity; seems to me they should be tunneling out the front of GCT to the Penn tunnels to allow thru service and provide NJT access instead.
At any rate, it's fairly clear that the newspapers know what's going on--don't know whether that will affect the outcome.
With near universal outrage over this issue, it will be interesting to see just how unaccountable our state politicians are.
I'm getting sick and tired of state politicans controlling the CITY'S subway system. The NYCTA should come under control of the city, so no urban/suburban conflicts can continue.
Well they run around with nice suits and ties They get 80,000 dollars per year unless you are only a deputy in which case you hve to suffer with 65,000 per year. But what do they actually do? Scheduling trains? That is dept of operations responsibility. Adjusting service when there is an emergency? That is the job of the dispatcher Harrrasing the employee? That is the job of the motor instructer. Making sure the employees do their job? That is the job of the dispatcher and motor instructor. Also passengers are willing to write letters when some employe does something. In short superintendents are solely political cronies getting kickbacks for favors to management
The shame is the system ran a hell of a lot better without them. One desk trainmaster did the job of the dispatcher, motorman instructor, RCI and the deputy dogs at less pay with more efficiency. The yardmaster was probably one of the few jobs they left alone. I think the superintendant's job is to supervise the supervisors which supervise the supervisors whom supervise the supervisors who supervise me. If anyone dares to say the TA is a more efficient outfit than they were twenty years back, they surely don't count the bloated managerial force today.
Here we have another example of a mindless inane statement with absolutely nothing to back it up except gall. Trainmasters were around until the mid to late eighties. Give me statistics for one year where "On Time performance" was better than 1999. How about % of Through-puts? I remember back in those days the system would be anywhere from 10 - 25 trains short every day. So how could you say things were beter then? Where are your facts?
I never said the on time performance was better then. Simply that there are too many chefs in the kitchen for the same salad.
You said the system ran a lot better without them (YOUR WORDS). I'm here to tell you that you are wrong. Even with the seemingly poorer quality of new employees, things in Rapid Transit Operations are better & more professional than they have been at any time in the last 20 years. I have the data to back up my claims. Do you?
What "Data" are you looking for. If I could break into the system 38 and pull all the payroll records and compare them to yesterday's records, that is what I'd be looking at but the quality of the employees being hired is in direct relationship to David Gunn's policy of the bloated managerial force. We all know the TA is a big bumbling buracracy. They still take years to renovate a subway station, they made a lackluster decision in slowing down the train cars and are still buying diesel buses. They blame it on the employees and go ahead and spend even more money to recify their own problems. Why not spend another billion to study the Second Av subway? You want some data, I broke in on the K line many years ago under one superintendant, Farback. He had a motor instructor, not even at 168. He was at W4 Street, covering ALL the lines through that area. ALL of them! Explain how it is efficient to have TSSs tripping over each other. IS there a need to have 4 to 5 on a line? Is there a need to have one riding each work train back to a yard? Why have a motorman when there is a TSS there instead? The system is still running 20 minutes on the night tour with a hell of a lot more supervision. If there is a need for the excess baggage, it is because of political hacks. Why have a car desk foreman, a car appearance foreman, and all the deputies that enjoy the ride? I don't think RTO is a professional atmosphere, the supers make it look good on paper. I think that is what their job comes down to.
[They blame it on the employees and go ahead and spend even more money to recify their own problems]
Yet when the TA tries to improve the lot by requiring a T/O to have some college, it was the TWU and the Rank & File that objected.
Let me give you the perspective of of a manager who came up through the ranks. I was an RCI during the time of the real Trainmasters like Wegweiser, Battle and the like. The salary for an RCI or a train operator has increased by 250% since then. The salary of managers has, for the most part, grown proportionally. David Gunns policy was to keep a percentage gap between each level of supervision or management and their subordiantes. That policy has been maintained.
Management ranks have swelled but not in the operations area. Numbers have exploded in the support areas. Why - for two reasons. First - because the TA has modeled itself after a business. In fact, the TA has recently begun to show a profit from taking in work from other properties. Does that suprise you? That and the efficiency gains that have been made have directly resulted in the lack of dependence on and potential loss of all federal operating subsidies. Second - because of demographics shifts within the workforce pool from which the TA draws, the need for extended training, for more support services, more Labor Relations personnel, more people in the Worker's Comp. division. Clearly if your workforce migrates to one that requires so much more in the way of support services, you can see the need for more intense supervision. Make no mistake about it, that demographic shift has occurred. The TA, because of its political significance and sensitivity, was and is required to hire some employees that may not be the most qualified or the most desirable. Given that set of circumstances, more oversight is required. Is there bloat due to political patronage and the other organizational evils? Of course there is but the numbers are far less than the extra managers needed to keep a workforce with a dirth of work-ethics on the job.
That is the point I am drawing at and that was well put. I don't believe in the union's thinking that it will hurt them if we hire those with college, I thought it might strengthen us as it has the PBA. A more educateed person might tend to go to meetings and work to rules more efficiently. That is not my gripe with the TA and I am grateful I got the job with only a GED so I have to have something to pass on to my grandkids one day. The TA deliberately cut money to school car to rush out already questionable candidates for safety sensetive positions and instead hire more unnecessary supervisors to remedy the situation. My question is are the numbers and positions justified? If there is one line superintendant, why have so many deputies? Why have so many crew office co-ordinators when we don't have enough conductors to make full service? Finally what importance does the line super have? Does he/she do anything a dispatcher, TSS, yardmaster, T/O or conductor can't? I'll give you credit for the MDBFs you left behind in Queens but don't think it is cost effective when you need more than a few foreman in Jamaica per tour. We need more $$$ spent on car equipment, crews, and training. I had over 15 ABDs on the work train I am leaving behind this pick as of today because no CED supervisor wants to take any responsibility for it. Where is the supervision when I need them? They trip all over each other but when we have problems, they either dont know their hinds from their elbows or pass it down the line. I have data on that!
Thanks for the kind words about Jamaica.
The purpose of the Line superintendent is accountability. He is solely answerable for the performance of the line. To assist him or her, there are deputy line superintendents who work around the clock to insure that the superintendent's policies are enforced. I suppose that makes the org chart seem topheavy and in some areas it's not equitable. Be that as it may but the results and successes are measurable.
By means of clarification, I had a meeting yesterday with a gentleman who has been auditing the NYCT for the last 10 years. Prior to that, he ran the PRR Electric car facility (in Erie?). He repeatedly expressed how the NYTC org. is now the model for many other transit properties around the nation. He said the NYCT planned maintenance is infinately superior to the break-down maintenance of the PRR and many current properties. In short, from an organizational standpoint, the NYCT may have one or two too many levels of management but the result is positive.
Just read another suprisingly good article in a rail/bus trade ...
March/April issue of Mass Transit contains a 17 page (some 1/2 or 1/4 of article) article by Van Wilkins. It's titled "Commuter Rail Update". The operations selected would have been called interurbans years ago. Some of the highlights:
- SEPTA Harrisburg Keystone Corrodor, Schuylkill Valley
- Vermont: Vermonter & Ethan Allen Express
- Seattle, Sound Transit ... some equip. for this start up has arrived
- Atlanta, Griffin line to Savannah & Jacksonville (some day)
- Madison & Milwaukee (Wisconsin & Souther RxR, Canadian Pacific)
- Nashville, short line start up on 31.1 miles of track
- Triangle Transit in NC
- MBTA, plans to the south (Greenbush & Providence)
- CT, M-N & Shoreline update
- MTA M-N East side of the Hudson (Harlem & Hudson extensions)
- NJ, new service near Philly, Mid-town Direct
- MARC at Washington-Balt ... 187 routes miles
- VRE, south of Washington ... 8,200 daily boardings
- Miami, Tri-County (71 miles that come just short of Miami)
- Chicago, Merta ... more miles then LIRR, but #2 in riders
- East of Chicago, NICTD, 55 car fleet
- Dallas, Trinity Ry Exp, 34 more miles to Ft. Worth
- San Fran, Cal Train ... 77 miles ... incr speed to 90 MPH
- San Jose - Altamount (ACE 86 miles of service since 10/98)
Part II in next months issue.
It seems to be a good time to be a rail buff ?
Disclaimer: Don't want to get myself or Dave in trouble with copyright laws so have limited the amount of detail & cited publ. & author.
Mr t__:^)
"- MBTA, plans to the south (Greenbush & Providence)"
The Greenbush line is being opposed by the NIMBYs in Hingham, who don't want a rail line of any kind going through their town. Still, the MBTA commits vast amounts of money to this project, and I have heard a statement that the Greenbush line will be the last capital program they will undertake for 10 (?) years, which strikes me as an impressively shortsighted decision to make, and an all too common one these days - look at where NYCTA is now!
The "Providence" line I haven't heard about, but there are plans to branch off that line at Attleboro and there build lines to Fall River and New Bedford.
"- Chicago, Merta ... more miles then LIRR, but #2 in riders"
Several of its lines (Heritage, Southwest, North Central) are scheduled only with limited commute service.
[The Greenbush line is being opposed by the NIMBYs in Hingham ...]
Absolutely right, several of the pieces incl. comments that NIMBYs were had at work against these line extensions.
["- Chicago, Merta ... more miles then LIRR, but #2 in riders"
Several of its lines (Heritage, Southwest, North Central) are scheduled only with limited commute
service.]
Everybody wants to be able to claim they are bigger/better/faster/ longer/etc. In Chicago, METRA says "12 route, 500 mile system is by far the largest commuter rail system in the US or Canada, in terms of milage. Daily ridership is exceeded only by LIRR, which also has a somewhat larger fleet of rolling stock."
Mr t__:^)
"Several of its lines (Heritage, Southwest, North Central) are scheduled only with limited commute service."
Several? You've managed to name all three lines with weekday-only service. All the other lines have seven-day service, and 30 or more round-trips per weekday. The three UP (former C&NW) lines alone move 100,000 people every weekday. The BNSF line has over 45 round trips per weekday, and during morning and evening rush the flow of trains looks more like a rapid transit line than a commuter line.
Plus, Metra is double-tracking the North Central line (in conjunction with Wisconsin Central, the track owner) and making improvements to the Southwest line (which it owns, IIRC), and both lines are planned to have several more round trips when the work is completed. I don't know if either will be upgraded to seven-day service. Admittedly, the Heritage Corridor's schedule is a joke (three round trips per weekday, all inbound in the morning and outbound in the evening), but that line is sui generis, running mostly through sparsely-populated areas and communities that are much more industrial towns than regular suburbs.
The quality of the service offered by "Metra", as the quasi-governmental Chicago suburban rail operator is known, would likely cause much envy among suffering LIRR commuters. The trains generally run on time, are clean, and have good frequencies during rush hour. The offerings outside of rush hour are much thinner, but that may not be much different on the LIRR or Metro-North.
Metra also has a rather rich variety of train cars, including at least two distinct styles of double-decker cars that are great fun. The variety seems to derive from the fact that Metra inherited several different formerly private lines that it now operates as distinct systems.
And LIRR could aim to be as good as Metra Elrctric the former Illinois Central.
I saw those Tunnel signals. I think they are called default or something like that. I got on the Far Rockaway's 829(9:21 from Rosedale 2 NY). One thing I hate is that my Train 2day wasn't allowing passengers in the first 3 cars. ARGGHH! Anyway we got to NY early. I went to were I need to go, and then, I got on the 10:37 outbound to Babylon and I took that 2 Jamaica. At Jamaica, I got some nice Freight Train pics with LIRR MP15 engines. The one thing I saw today which I never knew, is that The LIRR is testing Dual modes from Penn Station all the Way 2 Montauk. They Don't run all the way 2 Montauk everyday, only on some occasions(This is Y its not on the Timetable). However, a Trackworker says Summer is when LIRR plans to start running it all the Time like the other DM's that run daily like Port J, OB and others. Another thing is I didn't know the Bi-levels run on the South shore line's Local Tracks. Usually, they run through St Albans and then join that line at Laurelton on the Express Tracks. But today I saw a Bi-level move through Rosedale Station in the same way a Long Beach branch would do.
"Another thing is I didn't know the
Bi-levels run on the South shore line's Local Tracks. Usually, they run through St Albans and then join that line at Laurelton on
the Express Tracks. But today I saw a Bi-level move through Rosedale Station in the same way a Long Beach branch would
do. "
I think that is due to the poor condition of Montauk viaduct (the elevated structure east of Jamaica) which carries Babylon branch (express)trains.
Because of this condition, diesels (Bi-levels) are not allowed on the structure because of the engine weight.
I haven't heard much about the Montauk viaduct problems. All I know is it was rehabbed about 5 years ago but the contractor did a lousy job and parts are falling off. I wonder what this problem will present in the long term, and if Babylon branch trains will be affected (put on the the "Atlantic" or local tracks).
But again, to my knowledge only electric trains are allowed on the Montauk viaduct due to structural problems so Bi-levels run on the local tracks.
In rewatching Salaam's tape of the J Line, I noticed something that I had completely forgotten. When the J train leaves Eastern Parkway enroute to Alabama Ave, there is a large amount of unused steel work rising between the tracks. The design and location gives me the impression that it might have been the start of a third or express track that would run along Fulton Street between Alabama Ave and Crescent St at an upper level.
Since this section is one of the oldest sections of el in the city, was there a proposal at some time in its history to construct a third track along Fulton St? I was always under the impression that this section was not of very heavy construction to begin with.
I thought all of that was some ancient connection with LIRR?
I could be wrong about this, but I thought all of that steel skeletal remains were related to an old LIRR connection near Eastern Pkwy.
Maybe Bob Anderson can give some details on this.
Doug aka BMTman
Wasn't the LIRR connection at Chestnut St, between the Norwood Ave and Crescent St stations, or was this still another separate connection?
That is correct. The information on the "Chestnut Street Incline" is at lirrhistory.com. I would prefer if the Fulton Street Line be demolished and replaced by a straight Jamaica alignment with three tracks and no stops. Woodhaven Boulevard would be converted for center track access.
Woodhaven Blvd is not an ideal location for a 3 track express stop because there isn't enough space for the 2 platforms. A beter locarion would be just east of the existing Cyress Hills stop, with the cemetary on one side, and offset buildings (and a gas station) on the other.
There were plans to build a flyover express track along Fulton St, but the entire plan for installing a middle express track was never completed. Demand for this line was so great that the 2 track local that exists today was hastily built first, to quicken it's eventual opening. Express track installation was deferred, and as we know with all "deferred" subway building projects, they never get completed.
I agree. Raze the Fulton St portion and build a new line from Eastern Pkway down Jamaica to Crescent, with a new express stop at Crescent. This would cut about 10 minutes off the present skip-stop service on the J/Z from Parsons Blvd, which would really make the J line a more attractive alternative to getting to lower Manhattan over the E.
"Woodhaven Blvd is not an ideal location for a 3 track express stop because there isn't enough space for the 2 platforms. A beter locarion would be just east of the existing Cyress Hills stop, with the cemetary on one side, and offset buildings (and a gas station) on the other."
It looks to me like there is plenty of room at the Woodhaven Blvd. station.
The platforms at that station are directly above the intersection of Woodhaven and Jamaica Avenue. So, any potential widening of the platforms would not be constrained by the position of the buildings on Jamaica.
The westbound and eastbound platforms could conceivably be placed further north and further south respectively within this intersection, without affecting any of the buildings on Jamaica Avenue.
Ferdinand Cesarano
No, not the entire platform. The northern 1/4th of the station continues past Woodhaven Blvd. Buildings here would make the addition of 2 middle platforms between 3 tracks almost impossible.
The width would be the same, the platforms would be moved inward and the tracks would take up platform space.
Or demolish the buildings.
Suggestion #1: The platforms on the J line here are too narrow for middle platforms. More space must be used.
Suggestion #2: Ludicrous. Build this express stop at Crescent/Jamaica, where the room exists today.
Some of this is conjecture on my part, but I think Karl is close to the correct answer. When the Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction complex was rebuilt (I think it was around 1916), a provision was made for a "flying express track" to be built over the the existing two tracks from Alabama Ave. to Crescent St. About that same time, the El was being extended from Cypress Hills to 168th St. in Jamaica. This extension was built with enough room between the current two tracks for a third track, which I assume this extra track from Alabama Ave. would have joined.
Check out this 1914 map , showing some early Dual Contracts proposals, from Jim Poulos' BMT Lines website. It clearly shows a three track line all the way out to Jamaica.
You BRT/BMT fans out there will also want to note some of the other proposals on this map:
1. A full three track Fulton El from Brooklyn Bridge to Lefferts
2. The Center St. subway being looped over the Brooklyn Bridge!
3. Express track on the Mrytle Ave. line from Broadway to Wyckoff
Doug, the conection with the LIRR that you may be thinking of was the Autumn Ave. connection from the El, between the Norwood and Cypress Hills stations, to the LIRR's Atlantic Ave. line that lasted for about 20 years from 1896-1916. Here's a picture of the remnant of that connection just west of the Cypress Hills St. station.
[Some of this is conjecture on my part, but I think Karl is close to the correct answer. When the Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction complex was rebuilt (I think it was around 1916), a provision was made for a "flying express track" to be built over the the existing two tracks from Alabama Ave. to Crescent St. About that same time, the El was being extended from Cypress Hills to 168th St. in Jamaica. This extension was built with enough room between the current two tracks for a third track, which I assume this extra track from Alabama Ave. would have joined.
Check out this 1914 map , showing some early Dual Contracts proposals, from Jim Poulos' BMT Lines website. It clearly shows a three track line all the way out to Jamaica.]
Love that 20 minute estimate running time to Jamaica--it took me 45 minutes from Canal Street the other day (and 22 minutes to get back to the City via the E).
Yesterday's edition of the Rocky Mountain News carried a front page photo of a three-car light rail test train, clearly marked as such, running northbound on the new extenstion just before the ramp to the flyover above the industrial spur north of Evans Ave. The photo was taken with a telephoto lens, making the train appear much shorter than it was.
Although the SW corridor extension is still scheduled to open on July 14, a glitch has developed. It seems some of the bridge girders which have been installed don't have enough concrete casing around the steel interiors to provide sufficient corrosion resistance for a 50-75-year lifespan. RTD has been testing these girders, and has agreed to make repairs on the Big Dry Creek bridge. Reinforcement tubes will be added between the girder tops and track ballast. In other words, the bridge won't have to be torn down and rebuilt.
They've finally put up station canopies at Hampden Ave. They have angular roofs unlike those at the rest of the stations, which are round. The pedestrian bridge over Santa Fe Drive at the Mineral Ave. terminus is in place.
The countdown continues. One way or another, I will be on hand when the extension opens.
I am traveling to NYC on Jun 12 on the Metroliner. Will I see the Acela in operation?
It will still be a Metroliner (train 114) but 132 will be an Acela Regional. I assume it will run the current AmFleet cars on the Metroliner now.
Acela Regional is using refurbished Amfleet cars with the bizarre Acela "paint" scheme and Metroliner (still Amfleet) cafe/dinette cars. The Amfleet cafe cars that were to be refurbished specifically for Acela Regional weren't done yet when I rode a little while ago, but maybe by June they will be. Nothing much has changed about the Metroliners. I don't think Acela Express is planned to start up until early July at this point.
Sightings reported elsewhere on the 'net indicate an Acela Express trainset in [almost-]daily mid-day testing along the NEC between NY and DC. So it's possible to see the Acela in non-revenue operation.
Got on a Montauk-bound bilevel this evening at Jamaica, first stop Bay Shore. As we passed through New Hyde Park, the automated announcement went as follows:
"This station is ... Flatbush Avenue.
This is the train to ... Flatbush Avenue.
The next station is ... Boland's Landing."
Duh.
What puzzles me the most is, why do the bilevels have any announcements about Flatbush Ave. at all. I thought they don't fit in the Atlantic Ave. tunnel!!
And, by the way, who was Boland's Landing named after, and when was this LIRR-employees-only stop first opened?
Where is Boland's Landing?
Could this possibly be a job for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Bolands Landing is a small platform on the Flatbush Avenue line just east of the portal, adjacent to Morris Park. It's an "employee only" stop
It's a small wooden platform right before you go underground towards FBA. I believe it was named after the LIRR's first 'environmentalist', some guy named Boland who had something to do with keeping the locos from getting everything dirty.
What I want to know is, do the bilevels have Landia programed as a stop too?
[What I want to know is, do the bilevels have Landia programed as a stop too?]
Let's not forget Flowerfield, Bellaire and Union Hall St.!
It would not make sense for the automated announcement system to be developed only for the bi-levels. The logic is simple. Program in every scheduled LIRR train so the system migrates up to the M-7s or even retrofit into M-3s without further programming. That's why the R-44/R-46 side signs had every IND/BMT line (1,042 codes) programmed in when the system was developed.
It would not make sense for the automated announcement system to be developed only for the bi-levels. The logic is simple. Program in every scheduled LIRR train so the system migrates up to the M-7s or even retrofit into M-3s without further programming. That's why the R-44/R-46 side signs had every IND/BMT line (1,042 codes) programmed in when the system was developed.
True, but Green Bus Line's talking buses as well as the R-110s only work for one route!
I can't speak for green bus lines but the R110 was built only to test the technology. it was never meant to be universally viable.
Were you able to cross from the Northbound platform to the Southbound for free before the fire at Intervale Avenue in the Bronx? Or was it like all the others between 174th and 149th Grand Concourse?
Train Buff Headquarters
That croosunder has been there for years, before and after the fire in 1989. Also, consider this: the el is high enough for the designers to place the token booth under the platforms rather than having two separate stations on each side of the el.
-Stef
Here's another one. Why is the Northbound platform at East Tremont Avenue on the 2 and 5 in the Bronx longer than the train? It looks like it can hold 11 cars. Does it have something to do with the connection to Bronx Park that was there years ago? I don't know if the southbound is long, too. I never looked.
Train Buff Headquarters
I too have been wondering. The only logical explanation that I can come up is for the fact that the platform was extended northward in 1947. There were two items in front of the station at the north end: One was the Bronx Park Connection, and the other was an old yard located east of the northbound track. The yard was demolished at sometime before the platform extension (don't recall when the yard was closed), and the Bronx Pk Spur was demolished about 1952.
-Stef
When the 180 Street Bronx Park Spur was closed (not to get it mixed up with the 3 Avenue El Bronx Park Station which was located just above Fordham Road) there was a exit added to the Northend of the Northbound Platform. This was used by those going to the Bronx Zoo which had their main entrance located at 180 Street. The platform was extended northward to reach this exit. The orginal name of this station was 177 Street.
Hello, I would like to start off by saying I'm new here and my name is Daniel. I have a question for the people that are following the Newark City saubway: Whay did they build three tracks at Orange St.? I have a photo posted on my site: http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/pcc09.jpg
I suspect that one of the old tracks will be removed to allow for a center platform to be built, since the "third" track is obviously of new construction.
Correct. The third track is part of the redesign of that station for the new equipment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since I and 400 others were unceremoniously dismissed from a certain direct mail marketing operation based in Port Washington, I haven't had the occasion to ride the LIRR east of Little Neck until today, when I noticed some construction going on in the vicinity of 'the pocket' at Great Neck, where trains are laid up due to the one track operation. They seem to be clearing off a section next to the single track. Anyone know what they are building?
ww.forgotten-ny.com
I recall seeing an item on the MTA Website requesting proposals to do the construction - to lengthen the pocket track to 12-car lenghts, and also add a 2nd turn-out so that there's one at each end.
Can anyone identify NYCHRR #11?
Pic at: http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/harbor02.jpg and
http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/harbor07.jpg
Daniel
Arrived in NY yesterday via LaGuardia. I see there is Grey Line bus service to Jamaica station for $5. Does anyone know the frequency of bus service? I think it runs from 6:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. but I'd hate to have to wait an hour between busses.
Took a cab from LGA to uptown Manhattan. Approaching the Triborough Bridge toll boths for Manhattan, the approach ramp makes a sharp left turn. While making that turn, you can see a new looking rail yard in the Bronx that terminates at the river. There appears to be a fairly new storage building near the terminus. I think this was the location of a New Haven rail yard. Is this a new CSX intermodal terminal, perhaps? I thought I saw some Trailer Train empties in the yard.
What you saw was the Harlem River CSX-Conrail Intermodal Yard built in 1997.
and the bus runs every 20 min. to grand central
Thanks for the responses. Did the CSX yard used to be a NH yard or was it constructed just for the CSX? Also, I was looking for the frequency of the bus service from LGA to Jamaica, not Grand Central.
Kennedy Airport has a nifty
connection to the "A" in
one of the parking lots..
Hi all,
I'm wondering what NYCTA T/O shifts look like, in some detail. I'm interested in comparing them to the shifts I work on a light rail line near Stockholm in Sweden.
For instance, here is one of my shifts (one I happen to hate):
I have to check out the train (from a safety standpoint) before I take it out of the depot in the morning. This takes about 10-15 minutes, if everything is in working order -- longer if there is a problem (but there rarely is).
(Our end stations are Ropsten and Gåshaga, and Aga is our "main" station where the depot is located, about halfway along the line.)
Depart AGA 5.36 --> GÅH
Arrive GÅH 5.47
Depart GÅH 5.47 --> ROS
Arr/Dp AGA 5.58
Arrive ROS 6.07
Depart ROS 6.11
Arr/Dp AGA 6.19
Arrive GÅH 6.31
Depart GÅH 6.32
Arr/Dp AGA 6.43
Arrive ROS 6.52
Depart ROS 6.53
Arr/Dp AGA 7.01
Arrive GÅH 7.13
Depart GÅH 7.15
Arr/Dp AGA 7.27
Arrive ROS 7.36
Depart ROS 7.42
Arr/Dp AGA 7.51
Arrive GÅH 8.03
Depart GÅH 8.05
Arr/Dp AGA 8.17
Arrive ROS 8.26
Depart ROS 8.32
Arrive AGA 8.41
(Train goes out of service. Usually taken over by a mechanic and run into the depot while I have my first break.)
Depart AGA 9.10 --> GÅH
Arrive GÅH 9.22
Depart GÅH 9.34
Arr/Dp AGA 9.45
(Relieved by another driver.)
Depart AGA 10.25 --> ROS
Arrive ROS 10.34
Depart ROS 10.41
Arr/Dp AGA 10.50
Arrive GÅH 11.02
Depart GÅH 11.14
Arr/Dp AGA 11.25
Arrive ROS 11.34
(Pattern repeats until my shift ends with the 13.50 arrival at Aga, direction Gåshaga, when I'm relieved by another driver.)
The main things I don't like about this specific shift are:
-- The initial part is very rushed, with few chances to even go to the bathroom at the terminals (except 6.07-6.11 at Ropsten, then things don't get better until the 7.36 arrival at Ropsten).
-- I don't like the way the breaks are split up (8.41-9.10 and 9.45-10.25); I prefer a somewhat longer single break, and getting paid for the first break (the contract only permits one unpaid break per shift) doesn't really make up for the fragmentation.
Sources of stress more generally:
-- Much of the line is single-track with passing tracks at most stations (four stops out of 14 have only one track). This means delays can be introduced if, for example, a driver gets delayed leaving the terminal at Ropsten (where the subway connects), or if, as happened to me yesterday morning, another driver leaves a station early and "takes" a single-track stretch early, trapping you with a red signal at some other station than the one where you were supposed to pass his/her train.
Here are a couple of links for the interested:
Official site of SL, Greater Stockholm Transport:
http://www.sl.se/
Fan site about the Stockholm subway:
http://www.torget.se/tunnelbana/eng.htm
Fan site about Stockholm's tramways and light rail lines:
http://hem.passagen.se/tramway/english.html
(Both the latter two translated into English by yours truly. ;-) )
Regards,
Tim
My memories working for NYCTA as motorman in the 70's were mostly 8 hour jobs give or take 20-30 minutes. When I later became an engineer for Montana Rail Link the jobs I was used to seemed easy. I spent too many l2 hour days working for MRL in thru freight and local freight service. Thanks for the Stockholm websites. I had the honors of riding your line in October l998 as well as other Stockholm Rail lines; also Oslo and Helsinki. Scandinavia is great but I truly nenjoyed similar experiences in other Europoean cities too.
Thanks for the response! I'm glad to hear that you've been here to visit and that you enjoyed yourself. (BTW, I was trying to plan a trip to Oslo next weekend -- never been to Norway despite having lived in Sweden for six years -- but no accommodations were available due to a convention going on there that weekend. But anyway.)
I was really interested not only in the lengths of the shifts, but also in the details of how they look, e.g. how much recovery time is typical at terminals, whether the running times are adequate, and so on. I also wonder whether the shifts/jobs vary much or whether they all tend to be similar. (On the line I work on, which is a small line with relatively little staff, the shifts tend to vary quite a bit.)
Some of you may be bored by this kind of discussion, so I'll also ask: Is there a mailing list where this kind of stuff is or could be discussed (i.e., rail transit workers)? I know of a couple of lists for bus drivers and for transit supervisors, but have never seen one for rail transit workers.
Regards,
Tim
The following was on the seats yesterday
The Northeast Passage to Grand Central North is about to be enclosed with walls and a ceiling, making the passage cleaner, quieter, and more comfortable, The passage will be open during construction but will be narrower as the work goes on behing four-foot barricades on either side. The first work you;ll see wil lbe the building of the barricades, beginning at the south end and moving north.
When the Northeast Passage is finished, work willl begin on the Northwest Passage. Both will be enclosed by trhe summer of 2001.
This project is a joint effort between MTA Metro-North Railroad and 383 Madison Avenue, the developer of the new office tower currently under construction on the block between 46th and 47th Streets and Madison and Vanderbilt Avenues.
Metro-North look forward to this enhancement of Grand Central North.
------------------end of office message -----------------------------
If anyone wants pictures before the start the work you better highball it over there !!!!
The following was on the seats yesterday
The Northeast Passage to Grand Central North is about to be enclosed with walls and a ceiling, making the passage cleaner, quieter, and more comfortable, The passage will be open during construction but will be narrower as the work goes on behing four-foot barricades on either side. The first work you;ll see wil lbe the building of the barricades, beginning at the south end and moving north.
When the Northeast Passage is finished, work willl begin on the Northwest Passage. Both will be enclosed by trhe summer of 2001.
This project is a joint effort between MTA Metro-North Railroad and 383 Madison Avenue, the developer of the new office tower currently under construction on the block between 46th and 47th Streets and Madison and Vanderbilt Avenues.
Metro-North look forward to this enhancement of Grand Central North.
------------------end of official message ----------------------------
If anyone wants pictures before the start the work you better highball it over there !!!!
Dang, I hope they are glass walls, there have been some great pix of some of their Diesl engines.
Another endless round of construction at GCT? Yippee.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Why does it seems that construction in NY never ends but in other stste it does?
Why does it seems that construction in NY never ends but in other states it does?
Gotta keep those onions happy.
What happened at Penn station last night, al the news says is Amtrak had a derailment and no one was hurt, and all service in delayed
That's no surprise! Amtrak has frequent derailments all around the U.S.A. (source: Jay Leno from The Tonight Show)
It's official, there WILL be a "Field Trip" in mid-May starting at Main Street on the #7 at 4 PM. We'll pick up additional folks in Brooklyn, at a station yet to be determined, about 6 & head for Stillwell Ave. Supper at Nathans, then a Slant 40 on the Brighton to cap off the evening. The trip will be a week day, and mid-week so my co-host can attend. My co-host is adding some points of interest along the way for those of you who crave detail with your fun. Once the details are set we'll post the date.
Mr t__:^)
A Slant on the "Q", eh? That might be just enough to lure me out of the office for a day. Keep me in the loop, just let me know a week in advance so I can cover myself at work.
Wayne
just let me know a week in advance so I can cover myself at work.
Takes that long to think up a good excuse???? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Starting from MAIN STREET? What does that have to do with Coney Island? Or is that where you will start the trip?
I spoke with Peggy and Thurston and here are their responses:
Thurston works near Main Street and there is much history and many photo ops on the 7 line which uses **redbirds***!!!!
On the 7 there is a the view of the LIRR from Woodside, the stained glass at 33,40,46 and the cross platform transfer to the IRT ast Queensboro Plaza- the only such transfer in the system.
Of course- you can join the tour at the Brooklyn location which will be announced by our tour leaders at a later date.
But at that point you might as well call it the General Subway Tour, Redbirds, Main Street and the Flushing line have nothing to do with Coney Island.
[But at that point you might as well call it the General Subway Tour, Redbirds, Main Street and the Flushing line have nothing to do with Coney Island.]
I just thought that since I was going that way if some other SubTalkers are able to meet me at Main Street, then Part One of the Field Trip will be Red Birds from Flushing to Brooklyn, then we'll take the N to the tour site, then the Q on the return ... not so much a grand tour as it's enjoying the ride on the way to & from Stillwell Ave. BTW, did you notice, Railfan Windows ALL THE WAY !
I will announce the date in mid-May soon.
Mr t__:^)
Any chance you could schedule the trip around August 17th or 18th? I will be in New York on those two dates on a baseball tour sponsored by The Sporting News or some subsidiary group affiliated with them. I live in California and it wouldn't be easy for me to schedule two trips to New York. And since you are taking MY train to Coney Island I figured I should be aboard. See what you can do and I'll give you the exact dates tomorrow.
Fred, I got one of those "fatal errors" when I tryed to e-mail you directly so I'll answer you on-line ....
The current trip is pritty much set for mid-May, but maybe we can come up with something else in August. I like week day trips after work, so about 6 PM until dark. If that doesn't conflict with your base ball thing let me know. BTW, I'm doing a AAA game thing in New Haven this year the week following with some non-SubTalkers, but I plan to take them for a ride (at Branford).
Mr t__:^)
"Fred, I got one of those "fatal errors" when I tryed to e-mail you directly so I'll answer you on-line ...."
I've already told him this:
his e-mail is fperitor@ausd.K12.ca.us. You should change the e-mail you post!
"BTW, did you notice, Railfan Windows ALL THE WAY !"
Unless you get an R-68 on the N :-(
But it's not like the next train won't be acceptable.
[Redbirds, Main Street and the Flushing line have nothing to do with Coney Island.]
Not true. The Redbirds serve Main Street and the Flushing Line, but their only connection to the rest of the system is a double crossover at Queensboro Plaza, with the N line tracks. This means that you will occasionally see Redbirds at the Coney Island Yard.
Long Island representatives have proposed that the MTA "take over" Long Island bus. Meaning that Nassau County no longer contribute anything to it's budget, eliminating funding of $19 million per year.
Which is a fair way to pay for that.
1) Have New York City also eliminate all MTA funding, to make things even, and make up the difference by not funding LIRR to GCT.
2) Raise the NYCT fare.
3) Cut bus service in New York City.
4) Increase borrowing, with repayment after 2004.
5) Demand givebacks from NYC employees in contract negotiations, increasing the extent to which they are paid less than public employees in Nassau County, then require the city to give the savings to the MTA.
Please choose one of the above.
6) "Find" $19 million a year for the bailout, just like the State and the MTA "found" $90 million a year to replace two-thirds of the money Rudy Giuliani unilaterally wittheld from the MTA when he unilaterally decided that NYC should no longer pay for NYC students passes, while people in the suburbs have to fund school bus systems out of their own pockets.
Yes, Rudy cut money to the TA as well. Not entirely, but a lot. In fact, I read a NYC OMB budget document that at some point in the near future, an agreement that requires the city to contribute X amount to the MTA capital plan will expire, resulting in potential "savings." Vallone proposed even deeper cuts. Pataki cut off the state money.
Suburban counties, as it is, contribute little to the commuter railroads. They did contribute to the bus systems. If Nassau can stop, why not Westchester. But if suburban contributions drop to zero, why not New York City's. And, of course, no one wants to raise the fare.
Which leads me to believe 1) transportation needs to be self supporting and 2) the MTA should be broken up so no one can raid anyone else's money.
[Which leads me to believe 1) transportation needs to be self supporting]
I'd say that I agree absolutely, completely, 101%, from the deepest depths of my being, but that would be an extreme understatement.
[Which leads me to believe 1) transportation needs to be self supporting] (I'd say that I agree absolutely, completely, 101%, from the deepest depths of my being, but that would be an extreme understatement).
We'll, than admit that you are talking a) putting lots of additional tolls in place, preferably with peak hour pricing b) fare increases (preferably peak hours) c) some cuts in uneconomic service.
I'd add a little exception -- most local bus service, in NYC, Nassau and Upstate, isn't a transportation system, it's a social service -- mobility for those too old, young, disabled or poor to drive on routes and at times without enough other people to make a profit. But it should be handled as such. I think private vans, and cabstands for car services in outer-borough neighborhoods, could meet some of these objectives at a lower price.
One thing that should happen is that all transportation-related taxes and fees -- fares, gas taxes, sales taxes on gas and motor vehicles, tolls -- should be used for transportation. That would be a switch.
Rail transit should be able to cover all its costs -- operating and capital -- on an auto-equivalent basis (not including the cost of the ROW and stations). A peak hour fare increase and little more productivity should put the subways over the top. The commuter railroads can get there -- in the next labor contract. Using some money from peak hour motor vehicle tolls to maintain the rails would be fair "rent" for transit riders giving up their share of road capacity (and air capacity). Auto to transit cross-subsidy should be limited to that. General fund to auto subsidies should be eliminated altogther.
The way the Vampire State is set up, all kinds of money moves around under the table in all kinds of directions. Who wins, who loses? I think if we could ever add up, some of it would just be disappearing.
[We'll, than admit that you are talking a) putting lots of additional tolls in place, preferably with peak hour pricing b) fare increases (preferably peak hours) c) some cuts in uneconomic service.]
I don't agree with a). Driving in Manhattan on business days certainly does have to be discouraged. But increasing the already-high tolls will be burdensome on drivers who are just passing through. Being a Long Island resident, I know what I'm talking about.
What I'd rather see is some way of restricting private vehicle use in Manhattan during business hours. That obviously wouldn't be easy to implement, and it would be necessary to tread very carefully in order to avoid antagonizing the business community. But it probably can be done, and should be.
[But increasing the already-high tolls will be burdensome on drivers who are just passing through]
I think passing through should be equally discouraged. You can pass through via Verrazano or Triboro or Whitestone.
Arti
I agree also -- through traffic needs to be discouraged. As it is, people go out of their way to use the free bridges instead of taking a direct route, adding to pollution. And like those traveling to Manhattan, those traveling through could be given an incentive to travel off peak.
I believe that tolls should be imposed -- not just on the Manhattan crossings but perhaps elsewhere -- so that sales taxes on gas and motor vehicles, and tolls, would be high enough to maintain the major roads of the region, and the rail lines as well. The "rent" money from paid by the motor vehicle drivers to transit riders for giving up a share of the road would be collected primarily on-peak -- drivers would say "make my day" if I threatened to add to congestion by taking my car out at 4 a.m. Upstate, where more miles are driven and road maintenance costs should be lower (they are not), gas and motor vehicle taxes alone would be enough.
Who would the loser be? My neighbor, a public employee who has gotten a coveted on-street Manhattan parking permit from the goverment that STILL has not allowed ME to buy a Metrocard with pre-tax dollars, let alone reimbursing my transit commute. Oh well.
Then the commuter rail lines, express buses, subway, and PATH should be required to cover their costs on an auto-equivalent basis -- the cost of buying, maintaining, and operating the vehicles and collecting the fares. It can be done.
As it is, we are keeping the fares low, not increasing productivity fast enough, and raiding transportation money for other things. The result -- little investment, and rising debt.
You are just jealous that your neighbor has that parking permit.
(You are just jealous that your neighbor has that parking permit).
Don't be so sure. We're pretty environmentally radical here -- no air conditioning in the house or the car, which we bought new in 1997. We wouldn't even think of driving to Manhattan.
I didn't even know they still made cars without air conditioners.
As for no air conditioning in the car, it makes a lot of sense. When moving you can open the windows and get a good breeze going. When stopped, the air conditioner would probably overheat the engine anyway.
My family never bought a brand new car. I find it wasteful. Why spend good money on a new car when you could spend the same to get the same car, used, with more features, or a better model car.
(My family never bought a brand new car. I find it wasteful. Why spend good money on a new car when you could spend the same to get the same car, used, with more features, or a better model car).
So the theory goes, but in 1997, when the ol' Plymouth Horizon couldn't make it any more, used car prices were high relative to new car prices, and the it just didn't work. Besides, we wanted a fuel efficient small car, and we wanted a station wagon, so there weren't really many choices. In another couple of years I'll have what I really wanted -- a five year old, well maintained, low mileage used car.
If I had to drive every day I'd want the AC. As it, my attitude toward 100 degrees is the same as my attitude toward blizzards -- if its that bad, stay home. We don't HAVE TO drive anywhere.
On the new vs. used issue, my understanding is that poor as it is, NYC always buys new fire trucks, and half the state gets our hand me downs used at a discount. It's like a charity from poor to rich. NYC transit always buys new buses also. And new rail cars. There are technical issues with the rail cars, and (now with the shift to different engines) the buses. But are there any opportunities for used transit out there?
Very unlikely...some smaller freight railroads thrive on hand-me-down locomotives (Montana Rail Link has prospered on these) but freight equipment is a universal technology in North America anyway. Philadelphia is a rare example, having used both North Shore electroliners and Chicago L converted PCC's. A rare example for New York was some 25 ex Staten Island cars that ran on the BMT in the l950's; retirement came too soon for them but then there's the matter of parts inventory for a minority fleet. On the matterof busses I'm sure they're pretty well used up by retirement time.
[On the matterof busses I'm sure they're pretty well used up by retirement time.]
From what I understand NY's potholes are hell on the buses. I wonder whether it would be cheaper to fix the streets than the buses.
[As for no air conditioning in the car, it makes a lot of sense. When moving you can open the windows and get a good breeze going. When stopped, the air conditioner would probably overheat the engine anyway.]
If you're traveling at highway speeds during hot weather, using air conditioning actually *saves* gasoline. Driving at highway speeds with car windows open creates so much air resistance that fuel consumption actually increases over what it would be if the A/C were running.
Except in extremely hot weather, A/C should not cause a car to overheat in stopped or slow traffic. It will run hotter than normal, but within the safe level. If the car does overheat, there's probably something wrong with the cooling system.
[My family never bought a brand new car. I find it wasteful. Why spend good money on a new car when you could spend the same to get the same car, used, with more features, or a better model car.]
There is something to be said for buying a slightly used car vs. a new model. You avoid the heavy depreciation that occurs the moment you drive a new car off the dealer's lot. OTOH, financing rates for used cars are generally higher than for new cars, sometimes considerably so.
I'm not one to not use air conditioning (I hate the wind blowing). I like the cooling system on the Acura that's all digital and temperature based. I've always wanted a car air conditioner like that.
We've never purchased a car with financing.
OTOH, financing rates for used cars are generally higher than for new cars, sometimes considerably so.
Which is a good argument for saving the money first and then buying the car. When I was young and foolish I paid interest on car loans. Now that I know better, I pay for my cars - and I still normally buy late-model used vehicles (two new vehicles in the past 25 years, and one of those was a two-model-year-old leftover).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I don't agree with a). Driving in Manhattan on business days certainly does have to be discouraged. But increasing the already-high tolls will be burdensome on drivers who are just passing through. Being a Long Island resident, I know what I'm talking about.
What I'd rather see is some way of restricting private vehicle use in Manhattan during business hours. That obviously wouldn't be easy to implement, and it would be necessary to tread very carefully in order to avoid antagonizing the business community. But it probably can be done, and should be.]
I don't see any alternative to charging people an equitable fee (equal to what a commuter pays) to drive thorugh Manhattan. As soon as you depart from equity you're back in the subsidy business, robbing Peter to pay Paul and ultimately costing both money because of the net reduction in efficiency.
But most of the fees should certainly be reserved for travelers using crowded streets during peak business hours. It seems to me that the best way to handle that is with an automated system that combines entry tolls and business district parking fees. People who are driving through would automatically be exempt from paying a double toll. People who paid a toll and parked would automatically be exempt from the parking fee. People who commuted from within Manhattan would pay the parking fee, and the cab fare would include a surcharge. That way everybody who used the streets during peak periods would pay the same.
I think you've hit the nail on the head here--I couldn't agree more.
[6) "Find" $19 million a year for the bailout, just like the State and the MTA "found" $90 million a year to replace two-thirds of the money Rudy Giuliani unilaterally wittheld from the MTA when he unilaterally decided that NYC should no longer pay for NYC students passes, while people in the suburbs have to fund school bus systems out of their own pockets.]
Percentage of MTA riders who take suburban railroads: 10%
Percentage of MTA capital investment going to suburban railroads in previous capital plans: 23%
Percentage of MTA capital investment going to suburban railroads in new capital plans: 30%
Ratio of MTA capital investment going to suburban railroads vs. NYC transit: 3 to 1
Operating cost subsidy for LIRR commuters: 63%
Operating cost subsidy for Metro North commuters: 57%
Operating cost subsidy for NYC subway and bus riders: 40%
Annual operating subsidy for a suburban passenger commuting from Syosset to Penn Station using a monthly pass, then taking a subway or bus in Manhattan: $1466
Annual operating subsidy for a City passenger commuting from Queens to Penn Station using a monthly pass: $302
Difference in annual operating subsidy received by Syosset commuter and Queens commuter: $1,164
There are words for this sort of thing and they aren't polite.
Yeah, NYC riders haven't been treated that well of late, but you also have to include the provenance of MTA dedicated tax revenues in the discussion. It sort of evens things out -- or a least it did a few years ago.
Then you have to ask yourself why the commuter railroads have greater operatig deficits -- low fares or low productivity and high wages. The LIRR ain't the PATH, with its $1.00 fare. It's the employees, and the pols who protect them, who are to blame.
6) Have NYC take over Nassau County. As long as city residents are being asked/ordered to bail out Nassau County, we might as well put Nassau completely out of its miserable little existence.
Nassau County has the youngest* county goverment in the state
*=The youngest county, Bronx, has never had a county government, the only other county to be this way is New York.
Yeah, as a Nassau county resident I'd love to see it annexed into NYC, because it's becoming more like Queens but everybody drives.
Nassau must let go of it's car culture in favor of a more transit based one, with a network of buses and subways more like Queens.
Of course the NIMBY's won't be happy.
Can you expect New York City to expand subways? Fat chance.
Well they should expand subways. It seems growth today is much slower than in the early 1900's, even with all the technology today. They build the original part of the IRT in four years, so why not a subway into Nassau county? And an LRT (Light rail) to serve the whole HUB area (the congested area around Roosevelt Field where most subway lines would converge).
The new millenium should mean growth, we need to change our (car loving) habits and embrace quicker, more efficient means of transport.
If it wasn't for all the damn NIMBY's and political red tape, there'd be an IND second system with complete second avenue subway, and we'd be on the road to having a subway system in Nassau county.
There are many parts of NYC that would benefit from subway expansions, as well as parts of Nassau county like the HUB area and the area in vicinity of Hempstead turnpike.
The Second System was not killed by NIMBYism, it was killed by the Depression and the War.
The Hempstead, West Hempstead, Port Washington and Far Rockaway branches of the LIRR would make excellent candidates for subway expansion.
Light rail would be OK, but you'd need some heavy rail lines mixed in as well.
Wayne
I think you'd have to have a real superexpress available if you wanted to convert the outer portions of these lines to subway. Consider the ridership on the subway from the rockaways. It just takes too long...
(I think you'd have to have a real superexpress available if you wanted to convert the outer portions of these lines to subway. Consider the ridership on the subway from the Rockaways. It just takes too long...)
Agreed. You really need a line that bypasses the 10 miles closest to Manhattan at 60 miles per hour to provide a reasonable commute from the suburbs, or even far-out Queens. Even subway expresses would take too long -- they typically don't get over 40 miles per hour.
"This is a JX (Jamaica to Roosevelt Field via Hempstead tpke express line) train. This is Roosevelt Field. Transfer to the Hub LRT and Hillside line on the upper level. This is the last stop, please step off the train and remove all belongings. Thank you for riding New York City transit!"
At the Spring St Lex Ave IRT there is what looks like a track bed for a 5th track between the 2 express tracks. Does anyone know wha it is for or was planned for?
This came up a few days ago. It was probably intended for use as a pocket track or layup track.
thanks I must have missed it..
There was a spur track located at this location. The interlocking machine was located on the platform. If you go to the station discription page on this site click onto Spring Street. You will see a picture of the interlocking machine that used to be on this platform.
Several days ago, Dave posted the possibility of doing the HBLR tomorrow. I haven't seen any postings about since. Is it still happening? Do we still gather at Exchange Place at 11:00 AM? The forecast has been upgraded from an all-day downpour to occasional showers. The 'warden' granted me a pass for tomorrow, so I would appreciate knowing what's going on.
Thanks!
I'll be there unless it's really bad weather. I expect that I'll walk down to Jersey Ave station and ride over to Exchange Place for the 11:00 meet-up. I've only got a couple of confirmed people coming along- so this won't be a massive trip.
-Dave
I intend to meet people....I'll likely drive to either Liberty State Park, or E34st (as I did today)
-Hank
According to info I've seen on this site the turn off of the Queens blvd line to the proposed rockway connection it is the turn off between Roosevet Ave and Elmhurst Ave, but on Forgotten NY.com it says its the turn off thats between 63rd Dr and 67th Ave. Which is it and then what is the other one for???
The Winfield spur of the IND Second System branched off the Queens Blvd. IND at the unused upper level of Rosevelt Avenue, then took a route around Cavalry Cemetary, then along Fresh Pond Road until it connected with the Montaulk LIRR ROW. The line would have then joind the Myrtle/Central line coming from S4 St., continuing along the Montaulk LIRR ROW until it crossed the Rockaway Beach LIRR ROW north of Myrte Avenue.
As for those other turnouts, I'm not sure.
Where exactly are we going? I'm not sure if I know where the SI-NJ drawbridge is. Is it along the Conrail tracks? Are there any liability issues for me to come by myslef because I'm 15
Daniel
It will be a walking tour of what was the North Shore Line of the Staten Island Rapid Transit. The drawbridge spans the Arthur Kill just north of the Goethals Bridge. You certainly should get your parents' permission for something like this. Full details can be found by clicking on "upcoming events" on the SubTalk page.
I called LIRR's Employment office. I was told that if you are 18 years of age, you can start as a Locomotive Engineer, Depending on your Background. An LE told me that you gotta have a Car or some other ride, because some jobs start at Long Island Terminals like Ronkonkoma, Montauk, ETC. What kinda Background do u need?
I'm sure we've all heard the bad news by now that Mayor Rudy has prostate cancer. Fortunately, it looks like they got in in the early stages and he should be able to pull through. Any of us in our late 40's into our 60's sweats this thing out for himself and it is a disease that can worry us to the point of insanity. Here's hoping that all of us, whether pro or anti Rudy, pull for him to come through this allright. Maybe we should not have him in any of our threads concerning politics until we know he will be able to come through with flying colors.
Actually, Rudy's cancer may be to NYC's benefit. If he drops out of the Senate race, but is healthy enough to continue as Mayor, we avoid Mayor Mark Green.
Senator Hillary? I think someone like Lazio -- whom no one is for, but no one is really against either, might have a better chance than the Mayor. Let's face it, people get elected through a combination of dishonest promises and campaign contributions these days. Anyone who has had to make a decision has offended someone at some point.
[Senator Hillary? I think someone like Lazio -- whom no one is for, but no one is really against either, might have a better chance than the Mayor. Let's face it, people get elected through a combination
of dishonest promises and campaign contributions these days. Anyone who has had to make a decision has offended someone at some point.]
I know this'll never happen, but if Rudy does have to drop out of the race, Hillary should be gracious and withdraw herself. Then we'd probably see Nita Loewy take her place on the Democratic ticket, which is where she should have been all along. A Loewy/Lazio race would be much better for the state, as either one would make a good senator.
holding the Mayor's Medical condition aside for now,,and yes I am sympathetic towards Cancer Pts,,my father died of Brain CA in 1970.Nov
However,Anyone who is Pro this Major,is not a member of a Union ,obviously .
When he merged the Police Departments,people who held Supervisory Positions in Transit PD ,lost their seniority to the City PD.
A more recent problem is Privatization Issues within the FDNY EMS system,he is bringing in Non Union Employees into the Union Ranks,,due to his Campaign Donations from that Non Union Ambulance Company CEO
..
Try to monitor recent City Council hearings.
Steve
[Senator Hillary? I think someone like Lazio -- whom no one is for, but no one is really against either, might have a better chance than the Mayor. Let's face it, people get elected through a combination
of dishonest promises and campaign contributions these days. Anyone who has had to make a decision has offended someone at some point.]
I know this'll never happen, but if Rudy does have to drop out of the race, Hillary should be gracious and withdraw herself. Then we'd probably see Nita Loewy take her place on the Democratic ticket, which is where she should have been all along. A Loewy/Lazio race would be much better for the state, as either one would make a good senator.
Where is Alphonse when you need him?
Making fun of the Japanese, I think.
-Hank :)
This Democrat hopes Rudy wins this one!!!
........what agout the innocent victims of rudy g .......????
Have you no shame, you worthless piece of humanity?
Calm Down Fred, Consider the Source.
i was talking about the innocent victims of rudy Gs . police murders of & with his G.D. blessings !!.........
I thought you were contemptable bringing up the race issue but this remark proves you are beneath contempt. You've managed to publically shame yourself twice today. Somehow I feel this is nothing new for you.
........ you can count on the train dude to post flamage personal attacks and insults like you just did...
and this says everything about only yourself and nobody else ......
Train Dude's just about the smartest guy on this board. However he and I have a RESPECTFUL disagreement about Rudy's politics. but I will ALWAYS hold out a hand of encouragement and yes, LOVE for ANYONE, regardless of political, ethnic, or religious considerations if that person is battling the scourge that caused my mother to die a most horrible, tortuious death, your message, on the other hand, is one of implacable HATE. so welcome to my killfile, Salaam
then you wouldnt see my last post check out however the positive responses from responsible intellegent
subtalkers not an ididot like you seem to be !!
This is wonderful! Eventually he'll be in everyone's killfile, so nobody will respond to him!
I hope I won't take that as a clue to take him off of the killfile in the future.
.......typical of the last threads etc...flamage ad hominem attacks and insults etc...
posted by children !!
May you suffer and die horribly at the hands of rampant disease.
-Hank
..... be careful what you wish happens to others may happen to you many times worse ....!!!
And I will root for him in this battle, too!
I count my own blessings, having been through cancer myself. Two years ago I was diagnosed as having a tumor in the colon, and a week later underwent surgery to remove it. Fortunately, the surgeon felt it was in very early stages, and then with a six-month regimen of chemotherapy, I have been clean since. I thank heaven that it WAS diagnosed and treated early, else I migth not be typing this right now.
Cancer is not something to be taken anything less than seriously!
Jodi would be crying if she were to read this thread. Her father died of acute myoletic(sp?) leukemia (same thing Mel Stottlemyer's got) and he didn't go very peacefully. Her mother had breast cancer, my paternal grandmother and aunt both died of cancer, (my grandmother of breast cancer, my aunt with a major matatisy(sp?) which they believed started in her lungs (she was a heavy smoker) and spread to just about everywhere else, including her brain, which is what eventually got to her). Additionally, we've got a good freind who's 4-year-old daughter just came out of Sloan-Kettering where she had a Bone-Marrow transplant; her 24-y-o step-uncle has cancer as well.
Neither of them is a pretty sight. The girl, however, is "99% cured"
-Hank
Here, here. Cancer is no laughing matter, and something I would never wish on anybody. My prayers are with Rudy.
I agree, and my prayers are with him as well. Cancer does not respect race, creed, political beliefs, economic status, of anything else. May he have a full recovery and a long and full life.
Judging from the fact that he hasn't been seen with his other half lately, it's no wonder Rudy's having problems with his prostate.
If ya don't use it -- it's bound to go bad ;-)
...................man.......thats .......gross...!!!!!......
question what about those police murders ?? comment line..________________________________________________!!
Who says he isn't using it?
LOL
I am told that in 1968 or so, there was a planning document titled "Plan for Action" issued dealing with transit improvements in NYC. Apparently, the Archer Avenue Tunnel in Jamaica has its origins in this planning study. Does anyone know if it is available on-line, and if so where?
As Nixon used to say, "I'm glad you asked that question".
There is indeed a writeup on it on this website, under "A Capsule History of the IND".
Yes, it's explained under the "Capsule History of the IND" portion of this website. Basically, it included the Archer Ave line (to Laurelton), the Second Ave. line, conversion of the Montaulk LIRR branch to a Jamaica "Super Express", the 63rd. St. tunnel, and a replacement subway for the now gone 3rd. Ave. el in the Bronx.
There was also a 5-year update published in 1973. It has a dark blue cover, lots of maps and pix, well worth the price if you can find it.
Try Arnold Joseph at (212) 532-0019 or Kevin Farrell at www.trainboooks.com or Brad Clarke at 122 W Nwwton St, Boston, MA 02118. All railfan/transit book dealers.
The northward extension of Hudson-Bergen Light Rail travels close to the huge 1906 power plant of the Hudson Tubes, which seems to be atop or adjacent to the Tubes route south from Pavonia/Newport station (once Erie). Yesterday, I visited the Jersey City Public Library, just a few blocks north of the Jersey Avenue station of the HBLR. On a staircase is a fascinating display of articles and photographs about this power plant. It referred to a website www.jerseycityhistory.net which, I discover, displays more photographs. It would seem that some of the air compressors for PATH may still be located at this delapidated structure. I was surprised to learn that this power plant also supplied power to the office buildings known as Hudson Terminal. As an aside, upstairs in the library is a Jersey City History Room, staffed by helpful librarians.
hey joe--- thanks for the info about the power house
and especially the link to the jersey city history
website... it seems in mid may there will be a week
devoted to increasing people's awareness of the rich
architectural history of jersey city... i hope they
preserve the power house and the medical center,
before they turn all of jersey city into an
exchange place bubble...
thanks also for mentioning the jersey city history
room at the library... i have been looking for a
source for information about the medical center...
heypaul, do you think that was the red-brick building we saw off to the right east of the Bayonne branch of HBLR?
Doug aka BMTman
Definitely not. The H&M power house is on Washington Blvd. near Newport Mall in Jersey City, so unless you were walking the still-under-construction segment of the HBLR you didn't see the H&M powerhouse.
I believe it would be on Washington Street, as it's not a boulevard at that point, or am I wrong?
Our Web site host Dave has kindly posted my summary of Boston's North Station, which includes some 85 recent images. Some of these show related portions of the infamous Big Dig. Enjoy!
Great Job with the photos, Todd! I found the section of the future "superstation" to be really interesting....it will be nice when that finally opens. -Nick
Todd- nice page about N station. Will it be big enough after the "super station" opens? (sounds like it sure isnt big enough now.) Are there any plans to enlarge?
Its a shame that nothing in the big dig will facilitate the N-S rail link. That's really nuts.
The waiting area itself will not be enlarged. However there will be a direct connection to the "superstation" via an underground passageway. This will help commuter rail to subway/trolley transfers.
I can't wait to see what happens when AMTRAK service to Maine begins... that will add a whole new level of confusion and crowding!
Todd, how bout extending
Disregard pushed wrong button
Those going on the tour tommorow make sure to check out the construction on the extension. Harborside station is being worked on and is being used as a one track yard. A second track is being installed. A layover LRV is usually there. After Harborside the tracks curve at a 90 degree turn west and continues. I didn't follow the tracks and I think its an off limit construction area. DOes it follow a street or does it have its own ROW, I don't know.
Anyway the Harborside station has a island platform and seems large enough for two trains back to back. A crossover in the middle allows people to reach the adjecent building. On of the tracks seems to continue pass the station though there is a bumper block in thw way.
When is construction on this extension suppose to be done?
Estimates call for completion in 2001
and completion to Hoboken by the end of this year
I was up near Pavonia/Newport last night and briefly caught a glimpse of the right of way there. It was dark so I couldn't see much but the tracks and Newport station appear to be there. Didn't think to look for catenary wires or poles. The indoor pedestrian walkway between Newport Tower(?) and the Newport Centre Mall go right over the tracks just south of the station. The line seems to be elevated a little bit to the north of that to cross over a street.
They will run on a steel viaduct with concrete deck over Washington Blvd. There is a perpendicular connection that ends at an inlet just before Hoboken Terminal. The line splits in two directions.
05/03/2000
[They will run on a steel viaduct with concrete deck over Washington Blvd. There is a perpendicular connection that ends at an inlet just before Hoboken Terminal. The line splits in two directions.]
STEEL VIADUCT!........like an "el" structure? You mean a new Hoboken "el" returns?
Bill Newkirk
Sorry, no Hoboken El. The structure is steel ontop of concrete pillars; looks like a typical highway overpass basically.
-- David
The tracks past Harborside turn to the west, cross over a street,
the turn back to the north, where the next station is located.
Then they cross over another street at grade and on a very low bridge
over a parking garage entrance, and to the Newport stop. From there,
there is an elevated section under construction going to Hoboken,
which does not look like it will be finished for a while.
What about Harsimus Cove Station?
OK. What about it? That's the "next station" in the post before yours. I took a look 2 days ago. The tracks are essentially complete from Harborside to Harsimus Cove, the main pieces of work left being the grade crossing by the old power house and the installation of a switch south of Harborside to connect the second track through the station to points south. The grade crossing work mentioned above appears to be in progress. The poles are up from Harborside to Harsimus, as well as some of the supporting wire. There doesn't seem to have been any work done between Harsimus and Newport in the last month or more, with track installation incomplete and no poles up.
After Harborside, the cuurent tracks are broken and separted by Washington Blvd. That street now rides through a depression, but will be raised to create a grade crossing with the tracks. No catenary or catenary masts were intalled past the Harborside tracks and won't be until the very end. The station canopys for Harborside, the next one and Pavonia/Newport have been built but sections of track are still missing. The elevated steel structure runs from the Pavonia station all the way to Hoboken Yard. If anyone wants to see some of the contruction, see my pics on my HBLR site at http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/lrv.html
I'll have them up by 10:30 PM
Contruction at the Bayonne side to 22nd street has not started.
I'll also have a photo of the end of that line on my site later.
Daniel
Looking at this picture on your webpage:
http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/lrvc01.jpg
I am wondering how they are building these tracks, and why that way. Will this section of tracks be embedded in concrete? Why not the concrete ties in ballast that seems to be the norm on the rest of the line?
I'm not really sure why they are building the tracks like that. It could be that they will fill it in with concrete and make it a street-running section like by Essex St. It looks like there was a street there alredy before the construction started and they will put it back up. Maybe?
Dan
More likely a driveway. There was no street on the north side of the power plant. There are driveways that cross the tracks near the north end of the Harborside complex. They seem to use this type of construction wherever they expect an automotive grade crossing, not necessarily for a street.
You should take another look. The depression was filled in weeks ago, and the masts are up, along with some of the wire. Installation of the grade crossing is in progress.
I already have a NYC Subway line T-shirt with the F logo on it that says brooklyn 2 queens. I was told that they have every letter in some stores. I wanna know did they make an E Train shirt yet? or can anyone tell me where I can get these? Its a great way to show what Train is your favorite. Thats why I have the F.
P.S, do you know where I can get a Subway simulator?
Subway simulator.
Japan has one for the Sony Playstation. However don't expect to see an english version here in North America since the money in these games are on role playing....with guns.
You can buy hacks for your NTSC playstation allowing you to play Japanese games.
I know they have F, 1, 6, and one of the Manhattan Bway lines.
I got a 1
I need a 9
(Subway Simulator) You can get the Mechanik train simulator and download some modifications for the Toronto subway at http://kamx-members.xoom.com/ttcsubway. It's pretty good, and I think this guy is currently making a NY route, but I didn't really read the page.
no, he only makes NY rolling stock for the game.
P.S. After i press the door close/open and the door chime buttion the game frezes, any info on this?
Nope. I downloaded the game yesterday and haven't encountered any problems yet.
Years ago, the MTA authorized the development of a game called RIDE AND SEEK - a chase game based on the NYC subway map. The game was written in GFA Basic for the Atari 1040ST computer and the original IBM PC (running on DOS). A publisher could not be found however. There was talk of building a rail simulator for the customer services dept. but nothing ever came of it. The Atari version was fairly polished, though not yet ready for commercial release when the plug was pulled. A somewhat more primitive IBM version still exists. It would be, at best, a curiosity today.
Also, Bernard Greenberg, an invaluable contributor to nycsubway.org,has designed a fascinating signals simulator, which you can download. He is at a company called Basistech.com, and can tell you about both of these items...
RIDE AND SEEK, eh? I helped with that when I was in Customer Services! Always wondered whatever became of it.
David
I have the F shirt also (Bklyn to Queens) in navy blue. Bought it on Houston St. in a small store just west of Allen St. (becomes 1st Av.)
I saw at least 10 different lines...including A and/or E.
The Type 8 is running on the "C" Cleveland Cirlce and the "D" Riverside Green lines in Boston. At least one, but possibly two cars are in service...and is usually running as a double car with modified type 7 car 3622/82. -Nick
What is a type-8?
ANDEE
The Type-8 is documented here:
NE Transit Page Type-8 Page.
Thank you
Thanks, Nick, this must be a very new development. On Tuesday evening I saw Type-7-1/2 modified cars 3622/3682 still running together.
The Sacajawea coin can now occasionally be found on the "D" Riverside Green Line on the inbound side, where there are change machines that dispense dollar coins. The new coins are still mixed with the Susan B. Anthony coins. -Nick
Just saw the bulletin: The Booth will be closed during the station closure. The stores in the hotel lobby **will** remain open.
Free bus runs from Borough Hall (2,3,4,5,M,N,R) to Clark Street and High Street (A,C).
Here is the bus route:
To High Street:
Start at Court and Montague (M,N,R Borough Hall)
North (Transit North) on cadman Plaza West to High Street. Left on High Street to Henry Street.
South on Henry Street to Clark Street.
Left on Clark Street to Cadman Plaza West to Tillary Street.
Left on Tillary and right on Adams Street to the beginning.
Hours: M-F 6am to 10pm. Sat/Sun/Holiday- 8am to 8 pm.
Bus runs every 20 minutes.
Stops:
M,N,R- Court and Montague
2,3,4,5 Boro Hall- Joralemon at Court. Both use the B1225/B41 Bus Stop.
Clark Street- On Henry at Clark
High Street-Cadman Plaza West and High Street.
per official bulletin. Goes on sale at 7am on 5/8/2000.
This is a limited distribution card/.***stations are *not* grouped**. go to the specific stations listed below:
42-A,C,E
103-1,9
66-1,9
50-1,9
34/7TH-1,2,3,9
28-1,9
18-1,9
Franklin Street-1,9
47-50/Rock. Ctr- B,D,F,Q
50-C,E
23-C,E
14-F
6 av-L
207-A
168-A,C,1,9
57/7TH-N,R
so!!.........you can transfer from plane to bus and then to nyc subway ?? is that how this new card works ???
( just wanted to know ).........
04/28/2000
No Salaam, Continental Airlines paid for advertising their airline on this card. Besides, AIRTRAIN ain't here yet!
Bill Newkirk
............hey man !! i did not believe it at all..............just wanted to ask !!........( thank you sir ) !!!!!!
04/29/2000
When AIRTRAIN becomes a reality, air passengers arriving at JFK will pay $5.00 (not sure with Metrocard or not) for a ride from the airport to Manhattan ER!, excuse me. A ride to Jamaica where they can decide the tough question.....Hmmm!, shall I take the LIRR or subway to Manhattan? A wonderful question to ponder when arriving on the "red eye", but this is New York, we do things bass ackwards!!
Bill Newkirk
i knew you could not use this card and use it on the subway as well...
why cant your drivers liscense with that magnetic strip do all of these functions with one swipe
and pay for all of these things with one card ?? simple ?? thats why it wont happen ?!!!!
like you said ass backwards !! .........right on !!
Because these strips only hold so much information, you can't use them for everything.
yep !! i thought of that too !!!!
per offical bulletin. Goes on sale 5/8/2000 at 7am. stations ARE grouped. Comment: this is billed as "Version A" so I expect at least one more to come.
The stations:
Parkside to Ave M- D
Kings Hwy-D,F,N
Neck rd- D
Sheepshead bay to west 8th-D
59-Brooklyn- N,R
Bay Ridge Ave to 95- R
8th Av, Ft Hamilton- N
New Utrecht/62- N,B
18-22 av- N
Av U-N,F
86-N
Church-F,2
Ditmas- F
18 av- F
Av I-F
22 av (Bay Pkwy)-F
Av N,P- F
Av X, Neptune- F
Nostrand- 3
Kingston-3
Utica-3
President, Sterling, Winthrop-2
Beverly-2
Hi!
My name is Renato, I live in sao paulo, Brasil and really admire all kinds of public transportation. I'd like to change any kind of informations and pictures of subways all over the world. Hope to hear about you soon!
Alô Renato, welcome to subtalk. I used to live in Sao Paulo with my relatives during the summer (winter, in brazil) when I was younger. I'm planning on going back for a week in a few months. I never got to ride the Metro in sao paulo. I've rode the Trollybus in Sao Bernardo do Campo, where I stayed.
This site has hundreds, if not thousands of pictures of subways and more information than you can imagine.
where can i find the website to the sao paulo rail transit plus pictures ???______________________
Hi!
You can find some material on www.cptm.com.br!
another site is http://www.metro.sp.gov.br/
Hi Rob!
I'm glad you know this area. I know this site since 1997 and really likes it. Next time you come here, ride our subway, you'll like I'm sure! And let me know when, I'll be very happy in showing you all about. We have some interesting surface trains. you can see it in www.cptm.com.br
see you!
Well thanks to the RAILFAN WINDOW I was treated to a front row view of the inland route on my trip up to Amherst for the weekend via the Vermonter. As far as I know this is the only real Amtrak route with a railfan window. Also riding in an ex-Budd Metroliner with a full of the driver made things even better. It was also possible to listen to all the radio communications. I took note of several things:
1) US&S searchlight signals are alive and well on the Springfield Line. Although some have been replaced at interlockings w/ tri-colours the line uses mostly the old style signal. There was even one on its origional mast!
2) I was depressed by the poor, underutilized and under appriciated Hartford Station. The station was a wonderful Brownstone building that once served 4 tracks. Now it serves only 1.
3) I was also depressed that the once great NYNH&H mainline has been turned into a single track with a few passing loops.
4) Many of the grade crossings in still retain the red metal that fills in the tracks where the roads cros.
5) There is a signal tower still standing in the Hartford area. The top is somewhat gutted by flame, but it is of mostly strong brick constuction. The 4 track brownstone tunnel right outside the Hartford station is also nice. The date on the front said 1871. Talk about history!
6) The whole Springfield complex was also quite amazing. With the intermodal yard and SPRING tower sandwitched undereith the freeway bridge. While I was there a CSX train of empty autoracks passed by. It was hauled by 6(!) C40-8(W)'s. 24,000hp!!!! There was also a hi-rise ex.NYC tower there and was also cool.
7) The short jaunt down the Boston line was quite senic. The coolest part was getting a different perspective on railfanning. As I was looking out the front I saw a guy by the RoW just stnading there. Sure enough it was a railfan and after giving a short wave he pulled out his camera and took a picture. Its odd because I'm usually he one on the ground. Its nice to see how I look to the engineer.
8) After the reversal at Palmer Mass, I got to g into the now rear vestabule and look out only one pain of untinded glass. I was right next to the now vacent controlcab and could read off brake pressure etc. They radio was still blareing away and that was handy.
9) On the Boston line we passed a defect detector and thankfully is was still the Conrail recording. Axle count was 32, speed was 57, no defects.
10) Towards the end of my trip an Amtrak rep came into the rear cab thing with me. Instead of yelling he asked me about Amtrak, my travel habits and how I liked the ride.
So if you like railfan windows and you live in MYC spend the 60 or so dollars and take a round trip on the VERMONTER.
I noticed that the driver(s) up in the Conrol Cab seem to not believe in using the dynamic break. They would dump air for EVERY SINGLE speed reduction. The compressed air noises were cool (pisssssss-WHOOOOOOSH), but still I thought the dynamic was easier to use and didn't result in as much break ware. Furthermore, CAN SOMEONE PLEASE GO BACK IN TIME (Heypaul I'm looking at you) AND TELL THE NYNH&H RR WHAT A STRAIGHT LINE IS!!!!! Jeez, it was one S curve after another and one speed restriction after another. Was the railraod surveyer drunk or something. It wasn't even like following the topology. The curves were almost random.
And it's got lots of grades too! Actually, I didn't think the line north of new haven to hartford was *that* bad. I'll agree Hartford's station (wait, it's CT, we can't have train stations, we have to have 'transportation centers") isn't apreciated. What's worse, it's in bad shape. But the design is nice - and a GREAT touch is the tilewortk of an electric train right above the entrance to the platforms (I've got a pic of it somewhere). Hey, the New Haven knew what the future was...
) I was depressed by the poor, underutilized and under appriciated Hartford Station. The station was a wonderful Brownstone building that once served 4 tracks. Now it serves only 1.
Reply: Hartford Train station is now an intermodal station. In the early 80's? Greyhound sold its bus station which was about a half mile away and moved into the train station. Trailways had a small office in the train station and their buses left from the front of the building. The Greyhound station has since been demolished. As for the train station I concur, the upper level where the trains leave is kind of depressing because it is down to one track. It used to have more tracks and more platforms. However, there is alot of bus service out of the station from the big bus depot out back. I am glad they restored the fine old station although in the quest to made the reuse economically viable they stuck stores and offices all over the place. I think that ruined the look and usefulness of the train waiting room. The bus waiting area was created in the renovation and is not decorated and is often very crowded.
Is it really slower? why? It certainly looks nice. Why do most subtalkers malign it?
Bill
Is the R68-A any better?
I believe that they seem slower because they are more quiet. I don't like the R68s as much at R68As. I like the R68As because they have a better look, escecially the fact that their is black rubber around the windows. I like the sound of the brakes on the R68As. A full SHHHHHH instead of SHH AHHH.
Yup I agree, they are visually more appealing,... on the outside and inside... and ALSO they seem to hold more passengers and have more places to grab onto.
They might also seem slower because the motorman driving the train is not driving up to its capability. I have ridden R68s which travelled at unbelievable speeds a couple of times.
Those Redbirds are fast though. In full parallel they could do at least 40,45.
I enjoy when the motorman puts the the train in parallel going down the the hill near the 96st station. I bet we were going at least 50.
Those Redbirds are fast though. In full parallel they could do at least 40,45.
I enjoy when the motorman puts the the train in parallel going down the the hill near the 96st station. I bet we were going at least 50.
Wonder how fast we could go with field shunting.
[I believe that they seem slower ...]
No, the Hippos ARE slower ... they (or the T/Os) seem to keep them below 30 all the time, well maybe above that down hill in a tunnel.
The lack of a RailFan window & their low ceiling are the three reasons I don't care for them very much ... but ... mechanically you have a different story, so if you ride then to work every day you may have a completely different poin of view.
Mr t__:^)
Not everyone hates the R-68. I think they are a good, basic car. A few weeks back, I proved mathematically that they were not slower and and in fact, had the ability to be faster than most. As to why it's so maligned, I think that the reasons are two-fold.
First, they were lemons when purchased and took nearly 10 years to get them to perform up to the desired potential. Since that time, in the succeeding 4 years, it has gone on to surpass every other B division car in performance & reliability.
Second, on subtalk, this mis-conception has taken on a life of its own. It's sort of like saying, "don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up."
While I think the R-32 may be the durability champ, the r-68, closely followed by the r-46 will go on to be the performance champs.
Because it gets distressing to see R-68's being passed by crippled snails.
LOL. Try as he might, poor Train Dude can never safely argue that the R68 is as fast as other subway cars. They may be comfortable and reliable, but they're sluggish and slow. So, they're not THAT bad ...
I beg your pardon Chris but the last time this thread came up, I gave mathematical proof that the R-68s were actually capable of greater speed than other NYCT cars. Sorry you missed it.
No, I read it. I'm just saying that mathematical proof means nothing in day-to-day operations. The R68 is sluggish and slow, as anyone who rides them and has the ability to compare them with other car types can attest to.
In other words, don't confuse you with the facts because your mind is already made up. If you doubt what i'm saying, I suggest you read a fascinating study on a similar subject called, "The Tortoise and the Hare".
The truth is how long does it take to get 1/4 mile from a dead stop.
Some cars come off the line faster (0-5 mph) but the acceleration rate falls off sooner too.
Others are slower in iniatal acceleration but do better from 5 to 25.
I would like to see the acceleration rate curves for the respective cars.
LOL. C'mon Steve. I know you've adopted the hippos when you were transerred to the Concourse, but please don't try to convince those of us who know better that these sluggish beasts ever reach their mathematically-proven higher speed potential.
And I don't hate the R68. It's comfortable, quiet and has an excellent mechanical record. Those are good things.
transverse cab equipped too !! isnt the r 68 called a HIPPO ??
Can't make salami with hippo meat!!!
Yes, among other things.
The R-68s have a transverse cab at one end, referred to as the "A" end, and a half cab with railfan window at the other, or "B" end. During their first years of operation, you might occasionally find a train with the B end of the first car facing out, thus having a nice view. I lucked out a few times in that regard on the Q line. All R-68 trains today are configured with the A ends facing out.
Why can't they run with the B end first on 2PTO trains, It's not like the TO needs all that space.
Because all of the trains are configured in 4 car sets with the transverse cab facing out. Except on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, which is an OPTO line anyway.
And even there, the A cab faces out on both cars of each train. I understand the T/Os wanted that setup.
Steve B-8AVEXP:
I agree with you that having a cab at each end is a good idea. However I can't understand why everyone hates the R-68s. Glenn Rowe who works on the "D" train despises the R-68s and thinks that they're garbage. I've ridden on them and they seem to work which is all I care about though the air conditioning will make the car freezing cold inside when it is working.
BMTJeff
That is WHEN it is working. More times than a few I've found R68s with half-baked A/C or blowing warm air. Better A/C than that is found on the R32, which ply the "C", "E", "N" and "R" lines.
Wayne
The trouble with the AC on the R-68 is two fold but the biggest problem is that it works too well and the crews switch the #1 end unit 'off'.
That's not indigenous to the R-68. The crews switch the #1 HVAC unit off on many car classes, throughout the year. Must give fits to the maintenance crews who try to keep the two units in each car in balance!
David
Wayne-MrSlantR40:
I've occasionally found a freezing cold R-62A on the IRT lines that have them. My mother rode an R-62 a few years ago on the No.4 line and the A/C was rather feeble at best. I've found that to be the case with the R-62s in my own experience.
BMTJeff
I have found that the air conditioning in the R62A (Bombardier) works better than that in the R62 (Kawasaki) and that the R62A on the #6 are colder than those on the #1/#9 OR the #3.
Here's my observations, coldest first.
R32 (both phases)
R40 (Slant)
R38
R46
R68A
R62A (Pelham)
R62A (Lenox)
R68
R62A (West side)
R44
R40M/R42
R62
Redbird (R36)
Redbird (R33)
Redbird (R29)
Redbird (R26/R28)
wayne
Wayne-MrSlantR40:
I would agree with you that the "Redbirds" have the weakest air conditioning in my owm experience. On a day like today you wouldn't want to be in any of those cars. Try to ride the coldest cars that you can find.
BMTJeff
Put it this way: if the R-68s could get up to 40 mph on the CPW express stretch, it would be a big improvement. At least that run would be a little more exciting.
SteveB-8AVEXP:
You're lucky if any train goes faster than 40 mph. If they haven't slowed down all the subway cars after the Williamsburg bridge accident you might still actually have some runs with a decent amount of speed.
BMTJeff
Oh, I was on a southbound 3 train headed by #1969 last October which got up to 47 mph at 50th St.-Broadway. The express runs along 7th Ave.-Broadway are still pretty good. The R-38s on the A will reach 40+ on the southbound downhill runs before 42nd St. and again before 14th St. Speaking of the latter, there's very little difference between what the R-38s get up to and what the R-10s used to do.
Sadly, the CPW express run isn't a dash anymore, but a brisk walk, if that. Too many rides on A trains of R-10s will spoil you, if you know what I mean.
"Speaking of the latter, there's very little difference between what the R-38s get up to and what the R-10s used to do."
Since the R-10s did not have speedometers, how do you know this?
Didn't I just say that?
Actually, that setup in a necessity with OPTO in order for the operator to be able to open up the doors on whichever side the platform is.
subfan
You're right. I realized that about two seconds after posting that message.
Conductors on 8 cars sets would have to move between cars at alternating platforms. Opening a door might be required. Passengers would want to use this and it is a NO NO!
Ergo ... no rail fan window!
avid
[I gave mathematical proof that the R-68s were actually capable of greater speed than other NYCT cars]
Well of course ... if (and only if) you were to drop an R-68 off a high cliff, it would attain quite respectable speeds :-)
Not really. At free fall of 9.8 meters a second, an R-68 would fall 588 meters a minute and 35,280 meters in an hour. Since a mile is roughly equivalent to 1600 meters, the R-68s would plunge at a speed of 22.05 mph, or roughly their normal speed on the CPW tracks between 59th and 125th Streets.
Hope this helps.
[Not really. At free fall of 9.8 meters a second, an R-68 would fall 588 meters a minute and 35,280 meters in an hour. Since a mile is roughly equivalent to 1600 meters, the R-68s would plunge at a speed of 22.05 mph, or roughly their normal speed on the CPW tracks between 59th and 125th Streets.]
I've long since forgotten the formulas, but IIRC the 9.8 m/s refers to the acceleration rate, not absolute velocity. An R-68 that actually fell a distance of one mile would impact the ground at a speed well in excess of 22.05 mph. Come to think of it, do the Hippos even reach 22.05 mph on CPW???
Yes, but only after whizzing, er more like lumbering past 110th St.
Actually, they manage 22.05 mph along the Concourse express track.:-)
You'r right, although outside of falling off the tracks at Smith-9th Street, I don't know if they could get up much acelleration at all before hitting the pavement. Dropping an R-68 off Mount Everest would be a better test of absolute accelleration rates.
Well, from the top of everest, the maximum free fall speed would be a whole lot higher because the air is so thin up there...
One long buzz!
It's 9.8 meters per second per second, i.e. acceleration.
An object in free fall continues to gain speed...that's
why its "free" fall. In real life, wind resistance is the
counter force that eventually results in a balancing speed.
I don't know how to calculate the balancing speed of an R68
in freefall, but I suspect it would be higher than a slant-40
or a redbird because of the more aerodynamic front end design.
There's only one way to know for sure. I propose a SubTalk field trip to Yosemite where we can settle this once and for all.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Its only saving grace is the railfan window, but unitizing them is putting the full cab forward. Shades of R/44-46s.
avid
Are we factoring in the fact that R68s normally run in 8-car sets compared to their "lighter" counterparts which run in 10-car sets? How much of a difference would that turn out to be then?
You forgot those 2 extra 60 foot cars have also motors. More motors on the 10 car trains 60 foot trains.
Because of the varaible load valve and rate controls in the logic, weight is virtually factored out of the equation. To illustrate this, the R-16 (heviest B division car) weighed over 85,000 Lbs and had 4 100 HP traction motors yet its balancing speed was officially listed at 50 MPH while its max. operating speed was listed as 45 MPH. By comparrison, the R-40S (non-AC) was the lightest B division car at 68,000 Lbs. It also had 4 100 HP traction motors and had exactly the same officially reported balancing speed of 50 MPH and a max. operating speed of 45 MPH. The 25% weight advantage of the R-40s did not translate into additional speed.
The above data is from the "NYCT Passenger Car Data" published by New Car Engineering in March 1976
05/02/2000
[the R-16 (heaviest B division car) weighed over 85,000 Lbs ]
Train Dude,
I thought the R-11 was the heaviest B division car.
Bill Newkirk
Weight of R11 as originally delivered was 81,475 lbs.
After conversion under contract R34 weight was 82,500.
Close to R16, but not the heavy.
The Heavyweight Champeen? The D-Type triplex, of course.
wayne
05/03/2000
[The Heavyweight Champeen? The D-Type triplex, of course]
The only subway car that made the northside Manhattan Bridge track girders cry mercy!!
Bill Newkirk
The Triplexes belong in the superheavyweight category. However, if you take into consideration the service equivalent of a Triplex; i. e., two BMT standards, it almost equals out. One Triplex weighed 106 tons on the average; two BMT standards weighed in at 98-99 tons. Of course, the axle weight of the Triplexes was far greater than any other piece of New York subway equipment (IIRC, 40,000 lbs per axle on a fully-loaded train). This is why they were banned from the old elevated portion of the Jamaica line above Fulton St.
Agreed, weight will have little influence on balancing speed.
Weight will affect the acceleration performance after the end
of resistive notching.
There is one factor we may have been overlooking, however, that
"R68A - 5200" points out: Number of motors in the train.
In the case of most factors, the added tractive effort of the
additional cars is balanced out by added retarding forces, such
as track resistance, rolling friction, and windage loss in
the motors. However, perhaps the most significant retarding
factor, wind resistance, is almost independent of the number of
cars. The brunt of the wind resistance is felt by the lead car,
plus a little drag at the last car. The cars in the middle do
not add much to wind resistance.
One might therefore conclude that, all other factors being equal,
having more cars means a higher balancing speed.
My inclination is to disagree with your final statement. If we take each car as a single entity, it has fixed operating parameters. If you take a car capable of operating at 45 MPH and add it to another car with like characteristics, the characteristics don't add. What might be affected is the performance (ie: accelleration) at less than maximum speeds. Another factor to be considered is HP/Wt. A 10 car R-40 train weighs 780,000 Lb with 4,600 HP or about 170 Lb/Hp while an 8 car R-68 weighs 728,000 Lb with 3,680 HP or 197 Lb/Hp. That translates into a 15% disadvantage in Weight - HP for the R-68 but then if you factor in reduced friction and drag due to 16 less wheels on the R-68 train, you begin to get the feeling that these things tend to even out or are nulled out with rate pot adjustments.
Well, we were considering balancing speed only in this thread.
At balancing speed, the equilibrium equation holds that the
sum totals of forward and backward forces on the train are equal,
and therefore the train continues at the same speed.
The only forward force (tractive effort) is supplied by the motors.
Each motor puts out so many kips of TE per MPH, which is a non-linear
curve that sort of looks like 1/x. The important thing, however,
is that each motor is definitely putting out in balancing.
There are a lot of retarding forces. There is rolling friction of
the wheels on the rail, which is small. There are friction losses
in the journal bearings, motor bearings, etc., which are also
fairly small. There is gear loss, small. There is track resistance
which is a complicated effect having to do with the coning of the
wheels and hunting. Since the TA equipment runs at comparitively
low speed that's probably not too much. There are dynamic losses
resulting from sway and hunting and the damping thereof by the
cars' suspension. Also, probably pretty small. There is the so-called
"windage loss" in the motors since each armature has a little fan
attached to it and drag increases with rpm. I'm not sure how much
that is.
It was my contention that the largest retarding force is wind
resistance. Furthermore, I believe that most of the wind
resistance is contributed by the lead car and the last car, since
those are the points with the largest surface area normal to the
wind flow. There is some wind resistance from the cars in the middle
of the train, but I think you'll agree that it is not as significant.
If we agree that wind resistance is the major retarding force,
that means retarding force is not strongly dependent on the number
of cars in the train. OTOH, forward force is directly dependent.
If the motor curves say that at 40 MPH each motor delivers X amount
of tractive effort, then on an 8 car train there will be 32X
effort at 40 MPH but 40X on a 10 car train. Conclusion: the 10
car train must have a higher balancing speed.
I see the point you are making. I am not sure if I agree yet but its face it makes sense. Now let's take it a step further. 40 traction motors vs 32 of the same type gives a 25% horsepower advantage to the 10 car train. The 7:1 vs 5:1 gear ratios give approximately a 28% advantage to the 75 foot cars. Also the 780,000 Lb ten car train is at a 6% weight dis-advantage to the 8 car, 728,000 Lb. train. Even if you factor out the friction and everything else but the three factors above, the 75 foot cars get a slight advantage. Your thoughts?
Oh, those damn gear ratios! Yes, you did confirm that all 75
foot cars have the 5:1 gearing. What effect that has on balancing
speed is not so simple to calculate. Basically, the higher gearing
on the 60' cars means that for a given speed you are further out
on the motor curve, meaning less torque at the shaft, however,
you have to factor in the gear ratio again in that the higher geared
cars have more tractive effort at the wheels for a given motor
output torque. So, at this point, I think the answer is that
until one of us can find the motor curves for a WH1447J motor,
which I'm pretty sure I don't have in my files, we can't quite
settle this exactly.
Gentlemen;
Let's get together. I have the curves from both a WH R-16 and GE R-46 (new) in my archives. mail me with convieneint times.
Erik
I see the point you are making. I am not sure if I agree yet but on its face it makes sense. Now let's take it a step further. 40 traction motors vs 32 of the same type gives a 25% horsepower advantage to the 10 car train. The 7:1 vs 5:1 gear ratios give approximately a 28% advantage to the 75 foot cars. Also the 780,000 Lb ten car train is at a 6% weight dis-advantage to the 8 car, 728,000 Lb. train. Even if you factor out the friction and everything else but the three factors above, the 75 foot cars get a slight advantage. Your thoughts?
Steve, I missed that. Please re post it. I really want to see this. I have always felt those cars were capable of more, just emasculated.
Eric, the original comparison was with the R-40S on the Q line. Simply put an R-40 and R-68 both have 115 HP traction motors. however the gear ratio on the R-40 is 7.235:1 while the R-68 gear ratio is 117:23 or 5.086:1. Hence, while the R-40 has a weight advantage that allows it to start quicker, the R-68 can achieve a higher top speed for the same motor speed. Now, the R-68 is not the only NYCT car to use this lower gear ratio but as I said, originally the discussion compared the R-40 and R-68
Perhaps this would explain why no "D" train ever gets up to speed along Central Park West, while "A" trains (especially the R38s) routinely get up to (and sometimes over) 45MPH. By the time the R68 get up to their top ends, OOPS - Grade Timer's there. They'd need a longer express run WITHOUT TIMERS to get fully unwound. Seasoned operators surely know this that's why they keep the speed under control.
What is the gear ratio for the R44 and R46?
wayne
Keep in mind that both were designed to run at 70 MPH when built. Having said that, both have gear ratios of 117:23 . If you do the math, you get the same ratio as the R-68/R-68A.
Now the R-46 has only a slight weight advantage over the R-68 (about 4,000 Lbs. per car). Yet the R-46 is perceived as much faster. Why? Could it simply be that the R-68 truck gives a smoother ride than the R-46 retro-trucks? R-44 has even less of a weight advantage and uses virtually identical propulsion equipment to the R-68 (both use E-cams). How do you account for the perception that the R-68 speeds are lower?
Steve, you make a good argument. It really is perception. In both the 60th Street tube and along the Fourth Av. express R-68's show respectable speeds. Initial acceleration is identical according to specs. It's the free acceleration after all resistance is phased out where the difference becomes apparent. Like you wrote, it's all in the gear ratio. Or is it?
Perhaps it's the Wh/GE thing. Westinghouse cars have traditionally been slower on the top end than GE ones. But given the distance they all even out. In the bad old days when Wh and GE motors would be mixed on one truck (like 6398 has today) it just wasn't as noticiable.
It was for exactly that reason that I factored the westinghouse/GE motor issue out of the equation. I too have seen too many cars with GE motors on one truck and Westinghouse on the other. Clearly both motors have very similar characteristics.
You also raise another interesting point. Prior to the E-Cam, GE Cars had a decided advantage in the winter. It seemed that the moisture in the air that drove the Westinghouse air engines slowed the units down in the winter. (whoa unto thee who puts alcohol into a westinghouse group box)
Both the WH1447J and the GE 1257E1 motors have identical
electrical curves, so we can't ascribe any differences to
that.
There are several phases to look at: resistance-notching
acceleration, field-shunt-notching accel (no longer a factor..
yipee!! the analysis is easier), line voltage acceleration
and final balancing speed.
In the resistance portion of the cycle, the performance of any
two cars in the fleet should be identical. The average current
is regulated and that value is calibrated to produce 2.5 mphps.
In the bad old days, there was a lot of slop in that figure, but
now trains are tested with varying loads and it is kept pretty tight.
The only variable in this phase is the number of cars in a train
with traction faults ("dead motors"). The WH CAM groups were more
prone to failure than the GE SCM-1 groups, but there is also the
barn quality factor. Now, with the aggressive maintenance of the
R68s and the changeout to ECAM this is probably not a factor.
OK, so comparing two fully-functional trains...
Both types of switch groups have, I think, the same number of
resistance notches. The R40, geared higher, will reach the end
of the notches sooner than the R68. The R68 then has an accelerating
advantage during the 15-20 MPH region, until it too reaches the
last notch.
In comparing speed vs acceleration of the two cars one they have
full line voltage on the motors, the R40 is ahead for a while because
it is lighter and has a greater gear reduction ratio. Eventually
the curves have to cross over again and the R68 should end up at
a higher balancing speed because of the gear ratio.
This would lead to a design question: Why do the R68s have such
a low gear ratio? One would think that a heavier car would, if
anything, have a higher ratio.
Jeff, thanks for a very clear analysis of the discussion. Of course, my reference source, as always, is the "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing" book that is put out by CEE &TS (Car Equipment Engineering & Technical Support). I have some questions as tot he accuracy of the gear ratios. Some cars are listed as 7.235:1 while the 75 foot cars are listed as 117:23. Then some others are listed as 123:17 (which is 7.235:1). As you can imagine the thought of a misprint has crossed my mind.
It would make sense for the R44 and R46 cars to have a lower
reduction ratio since they were designed for high top-end.
The R68 and 68A cars, however, were not.
Actually, many who deride the R68's speed also deride the R44 and R46. I can't detect any real difference between the R44 and R68, but that's my un-scientificly proven opinion.
Why does the MTA buy cars capable of doing 70 mph when they know they will never allow then to due 70 or 65 or 60 or even 55 ?????
For the same reasons people buy automobiles that can do over 100mph when they know full well they will probably never go over 70mph. You do not want to run a piece of machinery at it's top end all the time for its entire life. It would burn out pretty fast IMO.
Peace,
ANDEE
The 2nd Ave. line, which the R-44s and R-46s were designed to operate on in the first place, was supposed to permit 70 mph speeds.
Does anyone think that they will allow a train to operate at 70 mph even if the track is perfectly straight? Some T/O would pull into the station and apply full brakes. The rear part of each car would be empty because the momentum whould spend everone flying to the front!!!!.. Don't mention lawsuits and ADA wheelchair locking mechanisms.
Tell that to WMATA and BART, not to mention AMTRAK and every commuter railroad in the country.
David
LIRR has a MAS of 80 MPH and it doesn't happen. Decelleration rates are also designed into the car when it's built.
That was then. If and when the 2nd Ave. ever does open, trains probably won't go much faster than 20 mph.:-)
I was on a train of R-40 slants once that did 59 through the 60th Street Tunnel.
Yeah.. With a very step incline to get up speed, and what about coming the other way !!!!!!
I'd be curious as to which East River tunnel has the steepest grades. The Joralemon St. tunnel has, IIRC, a 3.1% grade. Apparently, the Steinway tubes were steeper, judging from the fact that Hi-Vs and standard Lo-Vs ran in the Clark and Joralemon tunnels without any problems while cars using the Steinway tunnels had to be geared differently.
[while cars using the Steinway tunnels had to be geared differently.]
Remember it was originally a "trolley" tunnel ! And special trolleys were bought for it. Temp. rail was laid on the street to get them there.
Mr t__:^)
That's true. However, there is a limit as to the grade a rail locomotive can negotiate. IIRC, it's 4 or 5 percent. You'd need a cog railway if the grade got any steeper. In the case of the Steinway tubes, technology came into play. The older cars had to be geared lower in order for their propulsion systems to negotiate the grades; the SMEE cars had plenty of propulsion so they didn't need any special modifications.
That's true. However, there is a limit as to the grade a rail locomotive can negotiate. IIRC, it's 4 or 5 percent. You'd need a cog railway if the grade got any steeper. In the case of the Steinway tubes, technology came into play. The older cars had to be geared lower in order for their propulsion systems to negotiate the grades; the SMEE cars had plenty of propulsion so they didn't need any special modifications.
[How do you account for the perception that the R-68 speeds are lower?]
How about from a ride in Brooklyn on the "F" to Coney Isl, with the inside door open just enough to see the speed stayed under 30 almost all the time.
Mr t__:^)
Those are R-46s on the F.
If I may add my dime's worth. And mind you, I'm beginning to see some speed improvements on the R68's. (Depending on road conditions and if the t/o has balls enough to defy the speed restrictions.)Ferinstance:
a "high speed" run down grade at 103rd on the n/b express, hitting the bottom and zooming upgrade at 110th! Yes, it can be done.
From the start I was prejudiced against the R68 because of that horrible alloy they used in building it. The outsides always look so dull and drab. With the 68A's they did a big improvement. They always look clean, fresh and sleek.
One other problem with the R68: the same that plagued the 44's in the pre-rebuild days. At accelaration, they first seem to "drop" and then continue to pick up speed. By this time, however, even a local leaving at the same time or after will pull ahead. Happens on 6th ave. all the time.
Joe Caronetti
This past Saturday afternoon, the uptown 'D' I was on departed West 4th Street at exactly the same time as the 'F' across the platform.
Both trains arrived at 34th Street at exactly the same time. The 'F' makes two stops that the 'D' doesn't.
It is impossible. Was the D Train slowed down? Was their a train ahead of it the made it slow down? Or was it another F Train?
The 'D' wasn't any slower than usual, which doesn't say much. I know it was the same 'F', because the same woman I was eyeing in the 'F' across the platform at West 4th was still in her seat.
Oops, better quit while I'm ahead!
I noticed that, too. Strange...
BTW, I was on the F train.
HAHA! Pretty hilarious!
This proves that an express train doesn't necessarily mean fast service. Another case in point, the 6 local and the 4,5 express in the heavily congested segment on the east side.
Nothing unusual there. I've seen it countless times. Local trains will zoom along, overtaking express trains as they go. Unless, of course, you were on an A train of R-10s along CPW. A local didn't stand a chance. It may be more of a psychological thing if you're on the express, knowing that the local train next to you is going to stop at the next local station and your train isn't.
Back on December 11, 1999, I left 36th Street on a northbound R68 (NOT an R68A) of the "B" line. It was very slow, even under a full green, never exceeding 32MPH. An "R" local of R46s passed us between Prospect and 9th, stopped at 9th, passed us again, and beat us to Pacific Street. I was DISGUSTED at this hippopotamly performance.
Wayne
Do we dare to say the R-46s are faster? I'm inclined to say so.
Did any of you ever feel that you once rode in the back of a hugh wine cart, and had this same conversation?
Monsignor
05/02/2000
Thurston,
Are you talking about R-68's on the (F) which did run there for a very short time in the late 80's or early 90's? I rode them and photographed them. Why they were on the (F) I have no idea.
Bill Newkirk
It was recently and I probally was in a R-46 Rino, which I thought I could tell from a R-68 Hippo. In any case it was big & seemed like it was going to take us for ever to get to CI. The only nice part was the ride over the Gowanus.
Mr t__:^)
The R-46s have electronic signs on their sides, which they got during GOH. So did the R-44s. The R-68s have three-part curtain signs with route and both destinations.
I have yet to see an A train of R-38s get up to 40 mph along CPW. 38 is the best I've seen them do. I was on a southbound A of R-38s once which may have gotten up to 40 from the way it was moving.
As the Train Dude said maybe it's preception, but I preceive the R-32s, R-38s and even the R-46s to be faster then the Hippos.
Mr t__:^)
04/29/2000
My question regarding the R-68 is what would happen if they debuted 20 years earlier? What if there was no "wheel detectors", outrageous timers and other restrictions taking the "rapid" out of rapid transit. Would the R-68 be the speed demon much like the R-32, etc.?
Bill Newkirk
Twenty years earlier the R-68 had a 15% HP advantage over the R-32s.
However the were at a huge 32% weight disadvantage At the same time, the R-68 had a gear ratio of 5.086:1 while the R-32s had a 7.235:1 ratio. The R-32, therefore had a huge advantage in short runs but on long express runs without timers and wheel detectors etc., in the long run my money would be on the R-68.
I thought the R-68s were fairly swift when new. Of course, they still had field shunting back then.
Apparently not everyone doesn't dislike the R-68s. They co-starred on tonight's episode of "Law & Order - Special Victims Unit".
Were they the VICTIMS 8~>
Te producer and director specified R-68s when they planned the filming of the episode.
04/29/2000
[The producer and director specified R-68s when they planned the filming of the episode.]
They SPECIFIED R-68's? Do they really know an R-68 from an R-32?
Bill Newkirk
I saw the original request for the cars by the people in "special events". It specified R-68 cars. I suppose that when a production company comes to the NYCT about making a film, they are shown various subway cars and can then choose what will work best for them.
I wonder where the MTA keeps their glossy catalog of subway car models, or better yet, an actual showroom.
"Perhaps you may be interested in an R40 Slant? Hmmm... Let me go talk to my manager about that," says the guy wearing a bad toupe and a red polyester sport coat.
Just a thought. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
David
Are you still in Chicago? I thought you were heading east.
We need to keep you here in the Midwest.
I'll be in Chicago for exactly four more weeks, until I pack up and head to Boston on Memorial Day weekend.
I actually wish I could stay in my adopted hometown of Chicago, but circumstances beyond my control have forced me to transfer to a school in Boston.
Still, there's far worse places I could end up than Boston, and I'm looking forward to taking advantage of all that city has to offer while I'm there. But I think chances are pretty good that I'll eventually find my way back home to Chicago.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Considering the kind of crimes they deal with on L&W - Special Victims, I don't know if I would want the R-68 associated with that.
Rim shot!
Apparently not everyone dislikes the R-68s. They co-starred on tonight's episode of "Law & Order - Special Victims Unit".
[Forgive the first version ot this post. I must be reading to many of Salaam Allah's posts]
I've got them at:
http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/lrv.html
Daniel
I took these on monday when I passed by
http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/scrap01.jpg
and
http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/scrap02.jpg
Daniel
Interesting shot ... both jpgs appear to be the same though ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whoa, sorry about those pics. I got the second one re-uploaded at:
http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/scrap02.jpg
Note small dog in the foreground. He chased me after I took the picture.
Daniel
Still looks like the same photo. The dog is visible in both. What was the second supposed to look like?
I got it in again and I double ckecked. There is new picture now:
http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/scrap02.jpg
Sorry,
Dan
netscape refuses this server now what do i do ??
It should have worked. I use Netscape and it works.
Dan
I use Netscape as well and have no trouble getting to your site.
Please be aware that sallammallah is a known SubTalk problem poster. Many of his posts are made invisable by use of the Killfile.
As a new poster to SubTalk, welcome!! Posters are not limited by age or anything else. There is much available on nycsubway.org, not just the two BBS's. It's a great place to learn more about the New York subway and transit all over the US and the World.
Salaam is not really a problem poster. Anyone who goes way back on this board knows other people such as Eugenius D Train (now Pigs) and several others started making fun of him for some of his redundant posts, some spelling mistakes, and use of caps and exclamation marks. He just gave back to them what they gave to him and they can't take it so they insult him more. He's actually a real railfan who has offered his railfan videos on this forum for free a number of times.
I wasn't one who started making fun of his repetitive posts or spelling errors. I would post messages (in standard SubTalk fashion) going against what he's saying. Like he posts, TRANSVERSE CAB R-142s SCRAP !!!! and I would post why the R-142 is good. All of the insults come from him (well, at least started).
And that's exactly why a lot of us have sallamallah in our killfile.
i just lost the election of the worst subtalker - poster on subtalk !! guess i will just have to fade away
and cry in myself to sleep and give my best to engenus d train aka "" mr pig ""
now i conclude in my final campagin speech we wish president PIGS well in his new office he earned it !!!
now i will ask all of my supporters to respect the will of all the people we lost the election thank you !
i remember you said you are a policeman for new york city my birthplace and my home ...!!!
the next two posts however ,seems to be flamage and personal attacks and insults etc.....
i however am in communication with a motorman in chicago maybe i will be able to shoot a nice railfan vidieo
there soon.!! also i located another good chance at a transit rail museum in illinois with long track milage !!
wish me well shooting this !!!
I was wondering if anybody has the specific dimensions of the site between 58th, 60th, Columbus Avenue and CPW (the site currently occupied by the Coluseum)? The dimensions of the property lines are most critical.
Also, What are the approximate elevations of the subway platforms and/or mezzanines at the 59th St. / Columbus Avenue subway station on the eastern edge of the site?
Some sort of a hard copy of an official site survey would be ideal. Since I don't live in NYC, I wouldn't really have access to such a thing, but if anybody does, I'd be much indebted if they could make a copy and send it to me. Contact me via e-mail if you're able to help.
I was thinking that site would be perfect for a design project involving a large-scale mixed use complex of two or three skyscrapers. As a proud Chicagoan it just wouldn't be right for me to design a world's-tallest tower for New York (that honor belongs to Chicago), but I'll be sure to make one of the buildings at least 100 floors just to piss off the NIMBY's who shot down the Ceasar Pelli scheme of a few years ago. :-)
Thanks in advance,
-- David
Chicago, IL
http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/lrv15.jpg
Anyone know what that aspect means? Sometimes the white light flashes.
When the white light flashes I think it indicates a gated vechicle crossing.
I seem to recall seeing the flashing of the white light along the West Side Ave. branch. There were up around the Garfield Ave. area of the line.
Those signals are for interlockings (switches), but I'm not sure the meaning of the one you have uploaded there.
Doug aka BMTman
http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/lrv21.jpg
Looks to me the northbound track will joint the freight track and the southbound will curve left and both will continue south.
The poles are up. Is the freight track in use I don't know.
There is a branch that curves out to the military marine terminal.
When will this construction be done?
Yes, the freight track is very much in operation. CSX-Conrail uses it many times a day with really long trains. I think the construction to 22nd street won't begin until a couple of years. The main focus now is the Hoboken link. The construction to 22nd st. will probably be done in 2010.
Dan
Can any /architects/historians/subway buffs out there help me find information about John Oakman, an NYC architect at the turn of the twentieth century who designed the H&MRR Powerhouse in Jersey City? He also designed the marquee-clad PATH Christopher Street station in Manhattan, which has some of the Romanesque Revival features that the Powerhouse has. Oakman is said to have designed other industrial buildings in the NYC area. Anyone know about him?
Does anyone know if there is any new news on the proposed freight rail link from NJ to th Brooklyn Docks. I know there was some commotion about it a year ago. Is that plan dead?
Dan
[Does anyone know if there is any new news on the proposed freight rail link from NJ to th Brooklyn Docks. I know there was some commotion about it a year ago. Is that plan dead?]
I haven't heard much if anything for several months. It's not so much that the plan died, as that it was never really alive in the first place.
It is thought politically expedient to keep the rail link alive. It's like my commercial use zoning study -- its UNDEAD, because killing it would be a decision (after moving to another job I could accuse the current administration of screwing harmless small businesses), but following through would also be a decision (which might offend a NIMBY nut or two). So it wanders the land, neither dead not alive. The 42nd Street trolley is also like that. So is the Second Avenue Subway, and the reform of the NYC schools.
Rep. Jerry Nadler is committed to it, and cares about nothing else. So every now and then they get him to sell out Brooklyn in exchange for studying it again.
It is interesting how the conflict over the Port is getting resolved. In the early 1960s, the New York Port was attracting about as much tonnage as in the 1920s. Politically, they projected that tonnage would double or triple in thirty years, and promised ports everywhere. By the 1990s, we still have the same tonnage as in the 1920s or the 1960s, but the Port Authority, NYC -EDC and their consulant are once again projecting tripling or quadrupling tonnage, and proposing new ports everywhere -- with improvments in New Jersey going first.
It's a joke. What's going to happen? Everything we make in the U.S. will be sent overseas, and everything we use will be imported? We're adding LESS tonnage as we get more affluent, not more, by consuming more services and fewer raw materials. And we are buying better, lighter stuff that increasingly travels by air (ie. electronics). It is absurd on its face, but it justifies more study of Nadlers port and rail tunnel.
[Rep. Jerry Nadler is committed to it, and cares about nothing else. So every now and then they get him to sell out Brooklyn in exchange for studying it again.]
If I may be permitted to digress a little (well, a lot), Rep. Nadler also has been the strongest opponent of the bankruptcy "reform" bill now poking through Congress. This bill is sort of like the rail-tunnel proposal, in that it's failed twice on procedural grounds yet keeps popping up again and again. Banks and other financial-service companies have spent a small fortune lobbying for the bill. It would force many people to file for Chapter 13 reorganization rather than Chapter 7 liquidation, in essence making it harder for them to get out of debt. The banks point to the surge in bankruptcies in the last few years, conveniently forgetting that their aggressive credit-card solicitations undoubtedly are a major factor behind the increases.* Today credit cards are given to almost anyone, including many people whom a few years ago wouldn't have qualified for any forms of credit. It's not hard to see why there are more bankruptcies.
In any event, Rep. Nadler is one of the few Congressmen with the courage to take on the bank lobbyists and speak out in opposition to this so-called "reform." Even though I'm not a big user of credit, I consider the present bankruptcy system a vital protection - granted, of last resort - for people who've run into a jam. So for that reason alone, I have a lot of respect for him. By the way, the current reform bill is before a joint conference committee, different versions having passed the House and Senate by large majorities. Most indications are that the bill will fail yet again on procedural grounds, this time by a dispute over a minimum-wage provision hastily tacked on by one of the houses.
* = if you don't mind spending eight bucks, you can get an online credit report at www.equifax.com (periodic reviews aren't a bad idea anyway). Under the section for inquiries, look at all those marked "PRM." These represent banks and other card issuers who've gone trolling through your credit report - yes, it's legal - looking to see if you'd be receptive to a credit card offer. You probably will be quite disturbed to see how many there have been.
I know we're wandering off topic, but isn't there a way to stop the banks from browsing your credit history without prior written permission from you?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This would require Congress to determine that these records are your private property that cannot be accessed without your explicit permission. This issue is quite similar to the issue of internet privacy that will undoubtably be quite contentious in the near future.
[I know we're wandering off topic, but isn't there a way to stop the banks from browsing your credit history without prior written permission from you?]
You can contact the three nationwide credit agencies (Equifax, Experian and Trans Union) and make an "opt-out" request. They're required to share this information, so in theory contacting only one should be sufficient, but it's safer just to contact all three.
I should point out that the promotional ("PRM") inquiries don't count against you (on the other hand, too many regular inquiries send up a red flag). Lenders and others who pull your credit report won't see them at all. Even so, I just find it disturbing to have more people than absolutely necessary with access to what should be highly confidential files.
Thanks, I think I'll have to do that. My wife and I are sick and tired of the junk mail we get offering credit cards, home equity loans, even an offer from one of the automakers offering us a guaranteed car loan if we buy a new car from them (fat chance from that particular manufacturer in the first place, and I pay for my cars anyway, I don't borrow).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[My wife and I are sick and tired of the junk mail we get offering
credit cards, home equity loans, even an offer from one of the automakers offering us a guaranteed car loan if we buy a new car from them (fat chance from that particular manufacturer in the first place, and I pay for my cars anyway, I don't borrow).]
I occasionally get offers for home equity loans too. Trouble is, the house is and has always been in my wife's name, but the offers are addressed to me alone (I also own a condominium in Connecticut, but never get offers there). So much for "targeted" direct mail.
you can request the credit reporting company not to give out your file without your ok
Curiously, I believe Orrin Hatch, previously hopeless presidential candidate, has also been a big opponent of this bill. Interesting from a conservative republican whom big business can usually "count on."
Course, a republican senator from oregon does not need to worry about reelection, so maybe he actually votes his conscience!
Orrin Hatch is from Utah, not Oregon.
[Curiously, I believe Orrin Hatch, previously hopeless presidential candidate, has also been a big opponent of this bill. Interesting from a conservative republican whom big business can usually "count on."
Course, a republican senator from oregon does not need to worry about reelection, so maybe he actually votes his conscience]
Sen. Hatch (from Utah, not Oregon) and Rep. Nadler are probably the strangest of political bedfellows. I find it hard to imagine that they'd be so clearly in synch on anything!
The bankruptcy "reform" bill actually isn't a big-business type issue, at least not to the extent one might imagine. Banks and other financial services companies are all gung-ho for it, and indeed have set records for the most money spent on lobbying. Other types of businesses probably don't care much one way or another as business filings would not be affected.
Today I saw something else that puts a rather interesting spin on the issue. An exhaustive, nationwide analysis of personal bankruptcy filings has shown that medical bills, not credit card debt, is by quite some margin the leading reason why people file for bankruptcy. In one sense, this takes some of the blame off the banks, as their aggressive credit card solicitations might not have been such a major factor as thought. On the other hand, it makes their Herculean lobbying effort for the bankruptcy bill quite pointless.
If Nadler is against bankrupcy "reform," then perhaps he does have some value.
I've often said that bankrupcy is the welfare of the wealthy, and the abuse of the bankrupcy laws led many fair minded people to support cracking down. Then the Republicans pushed a bill that would have allowed credit card debt to trump child support among the poor, while leaving open all the loopholes that allow wealthy bankrupts to live better than you and me.
The S.I. Advance had a story about the rail link yesterday. Not much new information. Link to it at-
http://www.silive.com/news/advance/0428cb1tunne.html
To celebrate National Preservation Week (May 14-20), the Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy has arranged several historical tours of Jersey City. One of these tours is of the abandoned and forgotten Bergen Arches, a narrow turn-of-the-twentieth-century railroad cut that was commissioned by the Erie Lackawanna Railroad Company. However, Public Service trolley's were permitted to zip across its sloping chiseled cliffs. Some cut sections, smoldered with thick clumps of moss and roping vines, rise as high as one hundred feet. The Arches stretch from Jersey City's east side to its western spur, not far from where the Penn Station ruins were dumped years ago. Recently a federally-financed structural and feasibility study was conducted on the Arches; as a result much of the vegetation and wildlife that had set in were disturbed and partially destroyed. Jersey City's version of a rain forest has been erased. We fear that planners intend to turn the Arches into a highway; we fear the soaring walls will be cemented or altered.
The tour is always exciting. Meet May 14th, 10AM sharp, at the corners of 10th & Brunswick Streets, a few westerly blocks away from the Holland Tunnel and Pavonia PATH station. Bring water, a camera, and wear long clothing to fight off bugs and poison ivy.
For more info, go to www.jerseycityhistory.net
You have one MAJOR error. At the turn of the Twentieth Century (1/1/1901), the Erie-Lackawanna Railroad did not exist. That merger did not take place until the 1960's. Who actually built the arches? Erie? Delaware Lackawanna & Western? Pennsylvania? Central RR of New Jersey?
(We fear that planners intend to turn the Arches into a highway; we fear the soaring walls will be cemented or altered).
As a planner, it is that attitude that I fear. Here you have a transportation right of way. If it can serve that purpose, it should be used, and the question is road or rail.
Jersey City is like Brooklyn -- lots of poor Blacks and Hispanics on welfare or in off-the-books no benefits jobs, a small business tax base leading to lousy schools and public services, and many fewer jobs than 50 years ago when the Bergen Arches was in use. The new "hip," who are not affected by any of this, see it as a trendy ruin, and want it kept that way. Meanwhile, development occurs in Morris County, where everyone drives and even low-skill jobs are far removed from the poor who need them. When the hip folks finish protesting development in Jersey City, they move out to the suburbs where there are jobs for themselves and good schools for their children. They can afford it.
There are only two reasonable decisions for Bergen Arches, road and rail. Since the Hudson-Bergen light rail is already being built, I vote for road. Do we want urban reivestment, or suburban sprawl? Do we want to preserve woods and farmland, or an abandoned "rainforest."
Arrgh!
[Jersey City is like Brooklyn -- lots of poor Blacks and Hispanics on welfare or in off-the-books no benefits jobs, a small business tax base leading to lousy schools and public services, and many fewer
jobs than 50 years ago when the Bergen Arches was in use. The new "hip," who are not affected by any of this, see it as a trendy ruin, and want it kept that way. Meanwhile, development occurs in Morris County, where everyone drives and even low-skill jobs are far removed from the poor who need them.]
Jersey City has ****far**** more commercial development than Brooklyn ever dreamed of. That's not to say that there aren't many poor people, but the city itself is definitely on the upswing.
NJ seems to be in better condition then NY in more ways then one. Except maybe in transit.
While I find Mr. Littlefield's "planner" perspective to be rather heated and even a little insulting toward Jersey City, I must state that if the Bergen Arches must be developed for development's sake they should be adapted (with walls intact) for the new light rail line. Of course I would rather see the Arches left alone entirely. First, the Arches are too narrow for more than two lanes. Second, vehicular traffic would suffocate the Downtown area even further. Third, it would impede upon the historical neighborhood of Hamilton Park. And fourth, Jersey City lacks sufficient open space. The Arches have over the years proven to be a favorite spot for hikers, bird watchers, and urban explorers--people who appreciate the area's historical and environmental significance far more than any "planner" would...
Again, a tour of the Arches is scheduled rain or shine on May 14th, 10AM, meeting at the corners of 10th & Brunswick Streets. This tour kicks off National Preservation Week (May 14-20). Look for other historical tours throughout Jersey City which are posted at: www.jerseycityhistory.net
("Planner" perspective...a little insulting toward Jersey City)
I find the idea of preserving a formerly great city as a ruin to be more insulting. Here is an insult -- a planner once suggested that Downtown Detroit be preserved as a ruin. People in Detroit were not amused. Peter's right, Jersey City has had a lot of redevelopment than Brooklyn, and I hope it gets more.
(I must state that if the Bergen Arches must be developed for development's sake they should be adapted (with walls intact) for the new light rail line).
The reason to add transportation capacity is so that development will occur on previously developed sites at the center of the region, not on green fields on the fringe. If the Hudson-Bergen light rail is a success, and there are places that the PATH and it do not go, light rail might be a good option.
I am glad to see that urban decline chic plagues Jersey City, not just Brooklyn. It levels the playing field a little.
I passed by the Bergen Arches today to check the status of the HBLR construction, and I think a light rail line there is nice, but not as practical as a road connecting Holland Tunnel to something. Traffic is terrible, and unless they can use the Bergen atches to build a line to Manhattan, traffic will get worse and worse.
Daniel
Why must the Arches, among other neglected landmarks, be refered to as "ruins" as if they themselves are to blame? The real ruin here, and in every city, is the way in which mostly municipal owners permit historical landmarks to sit unused, neglected, forgotten, and then sick developers on them...
If a landmark is perceived as a "ruin" then why must it immediately be demolished or transformed beyond its original appearance? Why can it not be preserved? In truth, so called "planners" (among others) are the real wrecking balls. They make the work for preservationists all the more difficult...
I'll say it again--the Arches are too narrow to be a major highway. And the idea that we absolutely need another highway to lead giant trucks into the Holland Tunnel is absurd...
Sure, sure. I think we need to stop the movement of jobs to the Hudson Waterfront. All those former railyards on the Hudson should be preserved. Lots of nice weeds, all kinds of species. Now that light rail line is going to fill the area with people and ruin the solitiude! Driving the Science Musesum of in Jersey City one really gets a sense of history. It should never have been built -- the area around it should be kept as it is.
And any old loft buildings in New Jersey -- don't reuse them for commercial, retail, or incubator space or housing. Keep them vacant, so they don't generate any traffic, or are available until the vaccume tube industry comes back.
I agree that's a wonderful plan -- for New Jersey. Not for Brooklyn.
Mr. Littlefield, what railyards are you refering to? There are none left, thanks to planners and developers. So leaving the Arches alone isn't asking too much, is it? There's nothing wrong with keeping a few historical monuments around, otherwise indifference and ignorance toward the past settles in...
But if it satisfies your "planner" mentality, the Arches are probably going to see development soon (they aren't declared historic unfortunately). All we preservationists can do is hope that the historic integrity of the walls remain...
Mr. Littlefield, what railyards are you refering to? There are none left, thanks to planners and developers. So leaving the Arches alone isn't asking too much, is it? There's nothing wrong with keeping a few historical monuments around, otherwise indifference and ignorance toward the past settles in...
But if it satisfies your "planner" mentality, the Arches are probably going to see development soon (they aren't declared historic unfortunately). All we preservationists can do is hope that the historic integrity of the walls remains...
larry... we are not all graced with your grand
visions of the city and the future...
on my first ride on the light rail line on opening
day, one of my favorite parts of the ride was
passing the junk yards... before the light rail
opened, i was roaming around jersey city on my bike,
and managed to make my way up to dickinson high
school and was impressed with the high school on the
hill and with some sort of odd railway line nearby
it...
just last week, on another trip roaming around on my
bike, i discovered the jersey city medical center
which is a true monument to 30's art deco and to
massive government spending during the depression...
just today, i was in the jersey city library, a
building that was built in 1899 and which still had
an elevator with an attendant... there is a special
room on the 3rd floor devoted to the history of new
jersey, run by some people who are really dedicated
to their job and very friendly...
you mentioned the vacumn tube industry... i was just
listening to some music on wnyc am from the 30's and
40's on an old late 30's wooden radio made by
fairbanks morse, a company which is perhaps better
known for locomotives...
larry... there are some of us with a taste for the
past and for pride and sweat that went into
making real things that have lasted over the
years... of course, we don't expect to see this
survive in the face of an economy based on greed.. i was particularly interested in learning from dave pirmann that the condominiums alongside the light rail line
in jersey city have sold for $500,000 - $600,000...
i hope the people buying these places enjoy living
in these pieces of crap ... perhaps many of these
people have made their fortunes in a virtual world
of companies that lose hundreds of millions of
dollars and yet have stock valuations greater than
companies who actually make real products... if the
internet bubble ever bursts, the downtown area of
jersey city might well look like the junk yards that
i so admire...
meanwhile don't let anyone get in the way of your
visions for the mauling of america
Well said, Paul. I agree with you. Too bad there are people without vision out there "planning" our cities. Witness the lifeless architectural canyons rising on Jersey City's waterfront. Future generations just might scratch their heads in amazement at such blandness. The only building with substance (with the touch of a Master Builder) is the 1906 Powerhouse, which stands majestically within this "new" area. It puts everything to shame!
Were you able to see the Powerhouse display case on the 2nd floor of the library? It will be there for a few more weeks. Try to catch it; it has some photos that aren't on the web site. All of my research on the Powerhouse was conducted at the library whose staff is awfully helpful.
The powerhouse is an astonishing edifice. I took some pictures of it in january when I was exploring the uncompleted HBLR on my bike in the snow (as some may see in my photos http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/lrv.html) I'll put the powerhouse up tomorrow afternoon and if anyone wants to see it, it will be on my HBLR page. I didn't know they were going to tear it down. It is quite an imposing structure. They're probably going to build more of those cheesy townhouses like those on Van Vorst St. there. What a shame. I like those old buildings.
Daniel
But I still think the Bergen arches could be used as a road.
Daniel, don't write the Powerhouse off just yet. While last year the climate was "demolition," the efforts of the Jersey City Landmarks Conservancy and the Mayor's appreciation of history have changed the climate to "preservation." The wrecking ball has been held back. The Port Authority, who owns the Powerhouse with the City of Jersey City, is conducting a structural study of the Powerhouse to determine what physical repairs it requires, and how much they will cost. From here its fate will be decided. In addition, the NJ State Historic Preservation Office has recommended the Powerhouse to the State & National Registers of Historic Places. So hopefully you'll be able to continue riding your bike past the Powerhouse. I don't doubt it...
How much do you figure the condos in the powerhouse will go for?
04/29/2000
Re: Bergen Arches.
I don't know if I can attend this walking tour since it sounds like a lot of climbing involved. Is there a way I can see this from a distance?
Re: H&M Powerhouse.
In Baltimore's Inner Harbor, there is an enormous powerhouse that was abandoned, yet fixed up and is a happening restaurant and such in the Inner Harbor. Since Inner Harbor and the area where the H&M powerhouse are areas undergoing rebirth, would that be a viable idea or just restore it as an abandoned powerhouse? Either way, big bucks are needed to make this building look decent. Also I'm not sure whether the Baltimore powerhouse had any connection to the Baltimore Street Railway.
Bill Newkirk
bill--- baltimore's turning their powerhouse into a restaurant gave me an idea... perhaps they could turn the h&m powerhouse into a restaurant for all the financial wizards in jersey city who like having power lunches... perhaps if their quest for money and power is unquenched, a couple of old rotary converters might be restored and provide some of these captains of industry with a true taste of power
bill do you know that you were mentioned along with joe caronetti in the jersey journal on april 17 in their coverage of opening day on the light rail?
04/29/2000
[bill--- baltimore's turning their powerhouse into a restaurant gave me an idea... perhaps they could turn the h&m powerhouse into a restaurant for all the financial wizards in jersey city who like having power lunches]
heypaul,
Power lunch? WATT a great idea. You seemed to be CHARGED with great ideas. I sure you won't encounter any RESISTANCE!
Re: Jersey Journal
No I didn't, I have no way of obtaining a copy, OK how much do you want for it? A new bicycle tire?
Bill Newkirk
Bill, the architects who restored the Baltimore Powerhouse have recently inquired about Jersey City's Powerhouse...
Yes, it will take "big bucks" to restore it, but if developers could spend millions and millions on development, they can spend the same on redevelopment. Also, if the Powerhouse is officially designated historic, it will be eligible for preservation grants, loans, and tax incentives...
There isn't a lot of climbing on the Arches tour, but if you can't go just take a walk across Palisade Avenue near the high school and peer down into them...
We're also having a ground-level tour of the enormous PRR Embankment in Jersey City, May 21, 1PM. Check out my web site next week for an exact meeting place...
Yes, Bill, it did. The Pratt Street Power House was built by the United Railways & Electric Co. of Baltimore between 1901 and 1904 and was partially damaged by the Great Fire of February 7 & 8, 1904. The plant supplied power for the streetcar system, generating 13,500 volts AC which was sent to the various substations and converted to 600 volts DC. The plant was in operation for this purpose until 1923, when the Railway decided it was cheaper to buy 13,500 AC power from the Consolidated Gas, Electric Light & Power Company of Baltimore (Today's BGE),localy referred to as "the Gas Company". "the electricity is out, call the Gas Company". (The company traces its history to the Baltimore Gas Light Company, founded by Rembrant Peale (the artist) in 1818.) BG&E used the plant to generate steam for downtown heating. The plant closed in 1971 when BG&E sold the steam business.
yes... i did see the power house display at the library... i was very impressed with the history room and the librarian working there... it was not a high tech operation, but there was a great deal of care that went into clipping out articles and pamphlets on the hudson bergen light rail...it is a very comfortable place to curl up and read up on jersey history... unfortunately for some of the more modern folk here, there didn't seem to be many places to click on things and surf the wonderful world wide web...
i also looked through a whole book which examined the history and politics and architecture of the jersey city medical center...
i saw a post of yours early in the day asking for information about the architect who designed the powerhouse... have you tried the school of architecture at columbia university? or perhaps the municipal arts society?
you also pointed out to me in an e-mail that along the right of way someplace north of 34th street on the bayonne line there is a large abandoned building which also served as a power house... perhaps you might mention it here, because it is quite noticeable...
in fact, i have two other questions... yesterday i was with some people and we stopped off at martin luther king station... one of the people pointed out the station building for the railroad that served this area... they said that the tracks were below the street level, and that there was a stairway leading down to the tracks... is that so?
also along the right of way on the bayonne branch south of liberty state park, there were several sections of large concrete piers planted in the ground... were they supporting railroad tracks or highways?
Paul, I'm not sure about the MLK stop. In fact, I haven't been out there yet. But I'll look into that station...
I've seen that Medical Center book in the NJ Room. It's incredible...
I think those concrete piers were the old trestles of some railroad line. They're quite impeding. I shot them on 16mm film about ten years ago when that area was totally forgotten...
is there much on film of jersey city in its industrial heyday?
also are they dismantling the colgate clock? i noticed earlier in the week that they had taken down the metal structure next to it...
Paul, I haven't heard of anyone else having motion picture film of Jersey City...
Someone told me recently that the Powerhouse makes regular appearances on "The Sopranos." Is this true?
The Powerhouse was also seen in "Sid & Nancy" and "The Toxic Avenger"!!!
I saw them taking down he clock today, so I took some quicks shots before they ake it all the way down. I liked that clock I remember seeing it when I was little (1989). They're probably going to build more cheesy townhouses there.
Daniel
I don't think they are going to trash the clock. They're moving it to make way for a huge highrise. I've heard that they will keep it but haven't decided where to stick. It's a thorn in their side, I guess...
The sign may be going down but the clock is a landmark.
The clock was once atop a building, it's now gone, so they moved it to an empty lot facing the river. The clock may now be atop a building once again.
heypaul....your post is something I WILL SAVE AND ENJOY FOREVER!
AMEN!
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks to all who named Jersey City Medical Centre - I pass those buildings on my way to Virginia - I use the NJ Turnpike spur to I-78 - they remind me of the Stalinist-era buildings that dot the Moscow skyline.
Since they're Art Deco, wouldn't they make ideal Art Deco apartments?
Of course you would probably be looking at gut rehab or something close to it. I for one would LOVE to live in an Art Deco building, not that I could even afford to live in the boiler room of one...
Wayne
I've heard that the Medical Center Complex is being considered for apartments, among other options. Who knows? It is a unique set of buildings, John T. Rowland's crowning achievement as an architect. He had previously designed the stunning old Ferris High School near Newport, and he also designed countless mansions, office buildings, a church that should be called a cathedral, etc., etc. He was amazing, and his work lives on...
Those buildings are huge. They loom over the whole city, and you wonder what the hell they are and ask around. That's how I found out about them.
I'd rather see them reused than "preseved," but it might be tricky. The ceilings might be too low for office space, and (given its era) the building might have had open wards, which are difficult to turn into apartments. Perhaps "loft" type apartments -- big and semi-finished -- might work.
Who owns them?
The other "what the hell is that" I've come across in New Jersey is Rahway State Prison. It also seems like a massive monument off in the distance off route 1/9.
You never answered my question (and history comment). Who actually built the Bergen Arches? It couldn't be who you claimed, so who did?
Mr. Lawrence, one or two of the Arches has an "ERIE" sign over them. Was it the ERIE RAILROAD rather than the ERIE LACKAWANNA?
Had to be the ERIE. As I said earlier, Erie-Lackawanna didn't exist when they were built. That's why I asked.
[Mr. Lawrence, one or two of the Arches has an "ERIE" sign over them. Was it the ERIE RAILROAD rather than the ERIE LACKAWANNA?]
Yes. The E-L didn't come into being until the Erie RR merged with the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western (if I've got that right) in the late 1950's or early 1960's.
The Bergen Tunnel's western portal also has "Erie" over it, but they didn't build it. For informnation on who did build it and when, see the inscription over the eastern portal.
Considering that you feel that the Bergen Arches are a monument or a landmark and that you have taken it upon yourself to campaign to preserve them in their "natural" state, rather than to use them for their original purpose, I find the depth of your ignorance about them quite shocking.
Don't you know that the western end of the arches opens into a railyard and that the eastern end is barely accessible? Don't you know that the arches are a man-made railroad cut, not a work of nature? Don't you know where the Erie Railroad terminus was or that this cut obviously led to the terminus and that it is wide enough for a 4 track mainline? Don't you know that the cut is full of discarded tires, wheel rims, and assorted other trash?
Since you seem not to know anything about the arches other than their location, I am forced to conclude that you must have some ulterior motive for campaigning against their use. Surely you cannot be motivated by an appreciation of their history -- of which you appear to be completely ignorant.
I'm not sure sure how to respond to your posting. I'm certainly not insulted (I get this type of passionate, combative attitude quite often). I wish I knew what "ulterior" motives you allude to. The only motive I have is preserving Jersey City's history, and if you think otherwise I can only feel as sorry for you as I do developers who erase history with no remorse.
The Bergen Arches have become a natural preserve--sixty years of obscurity can do that. Yes, there is strewn garbage. But even Liberty State Park has its share of debris.
I know where the Arches led. I know where the terminal was. I am also aware that plans call for a major highway to be built in the Arches, thereby leading heavy trucks into the heart of another historic neighborhood. My primary concern is that the Arches' walls remain as they are. I do not wish to see them cemented, chiseled, or anything else. That's the real issue. Despite what you think, I know the Arches are man-made. In fact, many workers died building them.
I appreciate your opinion. Not everyone supports the Arches. I understand that.
I do wish I could spend more energy on this subject, but I have some history to preserve. Perhaps you should attempt to do the same. Instead of trying to correct me historically, why not offer your "knowledge" to make our efforts more enriching?
While you claim that maintaining the arches' walls in their current state is your "primary concern," you say things that are inconsistent with that claim. For example, you mention plans for a highway through the arches "leading heavy trucks into the heart of another historic neighborhood." Also, you assert that the arches "have become a natural preserve" although you acknowledge that they are man-made. Maintaining the walls is neither inconsistent with building a highway through the arches nor sufficient the preservation of the arches' ecology. Other, active rail cuts have the same kind of exposed stone walls despite the heavy traffic that passes through those cuts. (You might want to look at the cut occupied by the PATH line from Journal Square to its tunnel. Perhaps I have drawn the wrong conclusion regarding your motives, but it seems that you are more interested in keeping those trucks out of that neighborhood than you are with keeping the walls of the arches in their current state. (Not that that isn't a worthy motive.)
In my opinion, true historic preservation consists of continuing to make good use of old things in ways that are not destructive of their historic significance. The men who lost their lives building the arches were not building a nature preserve. (On the other hand, if someone qualified to render such an opinion were to tell me that the arches' ecology today is sufficiently unique to make its preservation worth the cost of losing the use of the arches for any other purpose, that would be a factor worth considering.) They were building a transportation corridor. Accordingly, it does violence to the history of the arches and dishonors the memory of the builders to turn the arches into a nature preserve.
Since the terrain in the area is a major obstacle to the east-west movement of both people and goods, leaving the arches unused is a expensive waste of a public asset. Perhaps a truck road is not the best use. Perhaps any road is not the best use. Perhaps light or heavy rail is more appropriate. I don't know. The choice should be made on the basis of the nature, source, and destination of the traffic to be accomodated. Whatever is chosen, the design should retain as much of the existing elements as is practicable.
To KMA:
I am starting to take offense to your unfounded assertions. You don't seem to be reading my responses to your opinions closely. I said the Arches have BECOME a preserve over the decades. Just as Liberty Park was once a landscape of railroad beds and later became a preserve, so has the Arches. Furthermore, you have no right to claim to know what my concerns are other than what I state. If you think my main concern is traffic through a neighborhood, you're wrong. I don't even live in that area. But I'd hate to see it plundered with heavy traffic. That's an issue, especially when it's an historic neighborhod we're talking about. You say I make contradictions? I never said I supported a highway--I said one is planned, and not by us. The municipality is carrying it out. Yes, I would rather see the Arches left alone--but cleaned up by the garbage you've walked over. This seems unlikely, however. In that case, our concern is keeping the walls intact. There's no reason why they should be touched, even if four lanes go through there.
If you claim to know what true preservation is, why don't you start your own preservation society? Why don't you contribute to history's preservation rather than trying to discourage it? Don't waste my time--and efforts--with disgruntled rhetoric.
You don't want traffic through the arches.
Of course you don't, you would prefer that the traffic uses local streets, streets inside the COMMUNITY.
No, Pighead, I don't want traffic through the Arches. I don't want it anywhere. In fact, the main argument of the new Hudsn-Bergen Light Rail system was to cut down on traffic congestion--not create more, which the Arches will do. So maybe "planners" and quasi-"historians" like KTM and LITTLEFIELD and yourself see it otherwise.
What kind of a click is this that you guys have going on? Is this what SubTalk is about? All I wanted to do was inform transportation enthusiasts from this site about exciting tours in Jersey City. Thanks for raining on our parade, guys.
Still, our tours will go on, our preservation campaigns will bring awareness, and our efforts will bring rewards.
And I bet you yo-yo's don't even live in Jersey City. That would answer many questions. But if you do live in Jersey City and are "planners" or anything similar, then that would answer many questions, too.
SO HERE'S MY REQUEST:
IF YOU GUYS FIND A REAL NEED TO ATTACK MY GROUP AND ITS EFFORTS, DO IT THROUGH EMAIL, LETTER, OR PHONE. I'M POSTING IMPORTANT INFORMATION ON SUBTALK FOR THE BENEFIT OF ITS TRANSPORTATION ENTHUSIASTS AND WE DON'T NEED TO SIDETRACK THIS INFORMATION. I'M NOT HERE TO DEBATE OR LISTEN TO THE ABSURD COMPLAINTS. GOT IT? LET'S TRY TO BE RESPECTFUL AND PROFESSIONAL.
john... i would again like to apologize for some of the visionary thinkers here at subtalk who seem intent on criticizing your efforts... i suspect that these people have personal interests in cement companies and construction companies and are dedicated to turning jersey city into a megalopolis of financial towers and homes for financial wizards... perhaps a use for roadway under question might be a running path for all the new urban professionals who will be needing an outlet for all their creative energies...
Why should we listen to your absurd complaints? You've obviously proven yourself to be worthy of nothing more than insults and mangling people's names. You can move to a FANTASY WORLD where there is no traffic, and therefore highways aren't needed, but don't expect any financing from me.
How do you think people will get to work, deliveries made and general economic growth will occur? Certainly not with your "utopian" plans of having no traffic. In fact, I would love that, I hope Jersey City rots to hell and returns to it's previous state, other places are grateful for growth of business.
If you don't represent the opinion of the average Jersey City resident, then I apologize to those residents.
Rail/engineering/history enthusiasts:
There will be a walking tour of the wondrous Bergen Arches on Sunday, May 14th, 2000, at 10AM. Rain or shine. Meet at 10th and Brunswick streets (west of the Holland Tunnel and PATH Pavonia Newport stop) in Downtown Jersey City. Bring cold water and a camera; wear long sleeves and pants.
This is probably one of your last chances to see these 100-foot high chiseled cliffs before a highway is laid out!
Hope to see you there!
Look for other Jersey City tours within the next few days in celebration of National Preservation Week, May 14-20, 2000, presented by the National Trust for Historic Preservation.
P.S.
The information you speak of over the Bergen Tunnel pertains to the Bergen Tunnel and not the Bergen Arches. Why the Erie Railroad placed their title over the tunnel's western portal is anybody's guess, but it might have been because the Erie took control of the tunnel and wanted people to know about it.
On this point, we are in total agreement. If I left the impression that I thought the information over the tunnel pertained to the arches as well, that was not my intention.
As for the reason for the Erie name on the western portal of the tunnel, you may be right. I would speculate, however, that the Erie may have built or rebuilt the western portal as it exists today and done the interior brickwork inside the western end of the tunnel. IIRC, there is no brickwork inside the eastern end of the tunnel, just exposed stone.
To KMA:
P.S.
The information you speak of over the Bergen Tunnel pertains to the Bergen Tunnel and not the Bergen Arches. Why the Erie Railroad placed it's title over the tunnel's western portal is anybody's guess, but it might have been because the Erie took control of the tunnel and wanted people to know about it. Maybe you have the answer.
As I said in response to your first "p.s." post, I conclude from the brickwork inside the western portal that that end of the tunnel had additional work done on it at a point when it had been in use for some time. It seems that the Erie re-finished the western end of the tunnel and took the opportunity to claim the "bragging rights." Of course, this is only my speculation, based solely on my observations at the site and not on any documentation or records.
3 unbuilt Images Replicas R-17 cars + decals
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320546621
1 built, 2 unbuilt Images Replicas R-17 subway cars
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320546624
Thanks for looking, no reserve!
Which Transit Museum Gift shop has the largest selection of T Shirts. Grand Central or Brooklyn? Also from Times Square. Which is the fasted way to JFK. The A to Howard Beach, or E/F to Kew Gardens and then Q10 Bus This will be a Friday Evening about 7PM
I think the answer to your question depends on the frequency of service of the Q10 vs the Shuttle to JFK from Howard Beach. My gut feeling is that it is quicker to take E/F to Union Tpke than the A to Howard Beach (running time) but that the Q10 with all stops and length of travel is longer than the shuttle, but if service is more frequent on the Q10........
I would say Bklyn. BTW, those key chains with the station names are back. There is a mistake on a couple of them. I also saw a 7739 sign plaque @ GCT. Doesnt 7739 belong to the Redbird fleet?????????
#7739 was one of the last cars of the old "Redbird" (aka R22) fleet.
That car would have been scrapped about 12 years ago or so.
Was that plaque on sale? If so, what was the asking price for it?
Nick
The Redbird fleet begins with R26 #7750.
Wayne
Anyone catch a glimpse of the statue near the Exchange Place PATH station. I took a pic but didn't get my film develope yet. Anyone know what it suppose to mean?
[Anyone catch a glimpse of the statue near the Exchange Place PATH station. I took a pic but didn't get my film develope yet. Anyone know what it suppose to mean?]
It's called "Katyn" and commemmorates some sort of massacre during World War II. Something that happened in Poland or Russia, IIRC. It's certainly not your conventional monument!
Massacre of Polish military after Russia and Germany occupied Poland. Currently Ukraine.
Arti
"Katyn" is a big thing with the Polish-American community in America.
The statue commerates the massacre (by the Nazi's) of Polish civilians and military officers in 1939. The village was called Katyn. The Polish officers had surrendered, and the civilians were Poles who supported their free country.
A similar statue is being erected in Baltimore, east of Patterson Park. The area has a large Polish-American population.
["Katyn" is a big thing with the Polish-American community in America.
The statue commerates the massacre (by the Nazi's) of Polish civilians and military officers in 1939. The village was called Katyn. The Polish officers had surrendered, and the civilians were Poles who
supported their free country.]
The front side of the statue's base bears the inscription "SIBERIA." Katyn is located what is now Ukraine, many hundreds of miles from Siberia. What does the inscription mean?
Remember, the Polish borders were shifted as a result of WWII. Only about half of modern Poland is the pre-war country. The west shift took some of Germany, and the Russians took the eastern part.
I haven't seen Baltimore's statue, as it hasen't been erected yet. If the same inscription is on it, I'll ask around. Somebody will know, or the local Sunpaper (aka Fishwrap) may publish the story.
The Soviets deported many people from countries they occupied in western Europe to Siberia in 1940-41 and again in 1944. A number of my relatives in Lithuania were deported, including my paternal grandparents.
The Nazi's massacred a lot of people but Katyn was done by the communists under Stalins orders.
Yes. As I understand it, after the surrender or capture of the Polish forces, the Russians killed every Polish military officer and cadet they could lay hands on. I guess they figured that the enlisted personnel would not be a problem without their officers.
Stalin,ever paranoid, feared that after the war , the Polish officers would be the source of a new government for Poland. The were not Pro soviet. There fore in typical Stai
lin fasion they all received one bullet in the head. The History channel carries this episode several times a year. After the colapse of the Soviet Union a lot of info got out to the west.
Stalin also called for a tempory halt when the Whermact had to put down the Warsaw Uprising. The nazis did the work of elinating Democratic leaders of a future Poland.
Dictators do bad things! Oliver Cromwell was an S.O.B. in his own fashion.
avid
There will be a ceremony Sunday at the statue to note the Sixtieth Anniversary of this sorry event.
I was over at Exchange Place last night and transcribled the following text from the plaque at the base of the "Katy'n" statue:
'On the 13th of September, 1939, the Polish Army, engaged in fierce combat against the Germans, was attacked from the rear by the Soviet Army, in conspiracy with Hitler (the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact). Stalin seized forty-seven percent of Polish land and annexed it to Soviet Russia. Two million Polish citizens, including children, women and senior citizens, perished en route to Siberia and at torturous work in Soviet labor camps. From 1944 to 1956 thousands of Polish patriot-soldiers of the underground armies of the A.K., N.O.W., N.S.Z., and W.I.N. - were horrendously murdered by the Soviet Police (The N.K.V.D.)
This monument is dedicated to the millions of Polish citizens and heroes who offered their lives to the fight against communism for our and your freedom. Let them have honor and glory for all time.'
Doug aka BMTman
Is this statue new, or is everyone here just noticing it now because HBLR is giving them a reason to go to Exchange Place for the first time? I saw it for the first time a couple of weeks ago, but that's because I was visiting New York, and the last (and only) time I was there I had no time to get over to New Jersey and no reason to get off a PATH train at Exchange Place if I *did* cross the Hudson.
Admittedly, it is the sort of thing that sticks out in your mind. I simply *had* to take a picture of it. Usually, statues of soldiers in an "active" pose involve them thrusting forward with a bayoneted rifle in their HANDS, not in their BACK. :^)
No the statue is not new. I remember it being there when the whole area was an empty lot.
ANDEE
I was able to go Railfanning with a friend of mine whos is a M/M on the Frankln shuttle and also the D line. That was the nicest Train ride I ever took in the brooklyn area! Those brakes are so smooth, and I like the view from both the single and full width cabs. My favorite R68 line is tied between the N and D.
I had a crazy idea; maybe we should pitch some money together and buy a 5-car set of Redbirds or a 10-car set of Redbirds or just 1 Redbird car. The only 2 question would be who keeps it, and where would we put the car(s)? Just imagine an R-33 that belongs to the fan of Subtalk, a R-33/ 36 car that also has a little bar, that has sodas and food (hey I am a kid no beer), also who knows how to drive a train?
Christopher Rivera
The two problems with buying a redbird are, how would you move it, and where would you put it? The irony is you can only operate a subway in a city, but you can only store it outside one. If it were a bus, it would at least be possible to drive it somewhere and park it.
I remember when the TA had its first auction, it sold off a subway car, which I think was bought for a restaurant. Any chance of that happening again?
It was turned into a restaurant. I remember it was at the Transit Museum and was a yellow IRT car. I loved it because you could mess with the roll signs.
I love rollsigns. I have an IND rollsign in my basement that I crank up and down all the time. I got it at the shop at the East Branford location many, many, moons ago. I used to love to watch busses and trolleys roll there signs back and forth. That is how I got so familiar with the SEPTA system. I made a mental image of the destination. I could even remember if it was written on (1)or(2) lines.
I saw in one post that we all would take a group ride on the HBLR maybe around August 2000. I'm up for that and will come up from the Phila. area to join you guys! Any details about this yet!
Chuck Greene
If you like rolling signs up and down, check out Joe Korman's site, wich is linked here in the "transfer" section....
db
Thanks, I've seen that! Pretty wild!
Chuck Greene
Which rollsign do you have - upper destination, lower destination, or route? I have a complete IND sign box which I bought at Shoreline 20 years ago. Right now, it's signed up as a D, Concourse-205th St. and Coney Island.
I guess you would call it a route side sign. It starts with "A" -8th
Av. Express and goes all the way down to "S" Special.
Chuck Greene
Yes, that's a side route curtain. Do you also have the mechanism for it? Each mechanism inside the sign box is marked according to its location: "1-Upper Destination"; "2- Lower Destination"; "3-Route". Does your curtain include the B, EE, and TT signs which were spliced in after the Chrystie St. connection opened? They would be next to the A sign. I found it peculiar that a new "B/via 6th Ave." sign was included, since all of the R-1/9s had "B/6th Ave. Express" signs.
Hi Steve:
I am a mechanical designer so I made an offset bracket to hold the crank in place. They supplied the crank with the sign box.
The readings on it are:
A- 8th Ave. Express
AA- 8th Av. Local
B- 6th Av. Express
BB - 6th av. Local
C - 8th Av. Express
CC - 8th Av. Local
D - 6th Av. Houston Express
DD - 6th Av. Local
D - 6th Av. Express
DD - 6th Av. Local
E - 8th Av. Express
EE-8th Av. Local
F - 6th Av. Express
FF - 6th Av. Local
F - 6th Av. Houston Express
FF - 6th Av. Local (they had it twice!)
S - Special
GG - B'klyn-Queens Local
HH - Fulton St. Local
Kinda neat! Can you identify what year this came from?
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
When I bought my sign box, Shore Line threw in a separate crank handle for the route sign. I still have it somewhere.
My route curtain has the same sequence as yours and, yes, there are redundant DD and FF signs. Since apparently yours doesn't have the three additional signs spliced in, chances are it may have come out of an R-1. Withdrawal of the R-1s began in 1968. It may have also come from a car which was retired before the Chrystie St. connection opened in 1967. In August of 1966, R-1/9s assigned to Jamaica Yard were failing left and right, and it's quite possible that some of them were simply retired and never repaired.
I found out the hard way that you have to be very careful when cleaning this particular type of curtain. It was printed on both sides using white paint, and when I started scrubbing away at the GG and HH signs, the paint started to bleed! Whoooops!! It wasn't as bad as it sounds. I carefully wiped up as much of the paint that had bled, and once the canvas had dried, it was fine.
Thanks for the info. Steve. My curtain sign is clean except for a big tear on the CC sign which I patched up with invisible scotch tape. Yes, it does say # 3 Route painted in white on the front. My handle was loose, also. That's why I made the offset bracket for it which screws into the metal frame of the box. Not exactly kosher , but it works!
Chuck Greene
My route curtain doesn't have any tears in it, but the portion with the A sign wasn't sewn straight. Consequently, if I set my signs for the A, the route sign is crooked. My upper destination curtain started to tear one day when I was cranking it, but that was due to a foreign object falling into the sign box. I mended it as you did, with clear tape from the inside (R-1/9 destination curtains were printed on one side only).
Yesterday marked 33 years since my first ride along 8th Ave. It was on a moaning, groaning, grunting, snarling AA train from 42nd St. to 81st St. to the Museum of Natural History on a dreary, rainy day. IIRC, even the upper destination signs were backlit. It was also the first time I witnessed the brute speed capabilities of the R-10s as an A train ripped past. Heading back to Port Authority, we ran neck-and-neck with a D train, its backlit "Coney Island" signs clearly visible. To mark the occasion, I set my signs for the AA. We repeated this excursion on May 21, 1967, and to this day, I still mentally replay the four-stop trip. The unique part of such a jaunt is that the train doors open to the left at every station going uptown except 50th St.
[The two problems with buying a redbird are, how would you move it, and where would you put it? The irony is you can only operate a subway in a city, but you can only store it outside one. If it were a bus, it would at least be possible to drive it somewhere and park it.]
You could have your redbird trucked to some suburban location, but it'll cost you a lot.
Does the law allow for storing a railcar on your property iif you build afence around it? For example in Montana in city limits one cannot have "junk vehicles" on their property unless "shielded from public view. I'd imagine most staes, counties, and cities have such ordinances.
Christopher;
There are several fine museuems in the tri state area which have done exactly what you suggest. In Connecticuit there are two, and one in Maine and one here in upstate New York.
Why not get involved with one, as they're always staved for voulenteers. Painting, cleaning, building and repairing track. Even operating.
Contact fellow SubTalkers Jeff H. Todd Glickman, or myself if you're interested.
04/29/2000
A 5 car or 10 car train or Redbirds? Maybe the R-33WF singles, they should be the first to go. Besides, buying, transporting and storing at least one such car runs into a few thousand dollars. Transporting it is big bucks. And local Trolley museums? The question is are they willing to add another piece of rolling stock to their rosters? Easier said than done, the dollars is the biggest challenge.
Bill Newkirk
Well, how much would one run to buy?
Secondly, how about it you simply wanted to strip one for souveniurs? Like pulling out the things in the motorman's cab, the rollsigns, and such?
04/30/2000
[Well, how much would one run to buy?
Secondly, how about it you simply wanted to strip one for souveniurs? Like pulling out the things in the motorman's cab, the rollsigns, and such? ]
1) Don't know, I guess you strike a deal with the scrapper.
2) It probably doesn't pay to buy an entire car just to strip it for certain artifacts. I guess strike a deal with the scrapper and tell him what you want. Don't hurt to ask.
Bill Newirk
Who buys subway cars for scrap? Anyone have any addresses or names?
But I was unclear. I was curious how much for the whole thing and how I could strip one.
Say, would you want to come to Philly and buy any of the remaining Almond Joys? All you would have to do is reguage the trucks.
You will need a lot of money today to buy one. It won'y be anywhere near the $600 we paid for 6398 under then pres David Gunn. The TA is charging over two grand for scrap cars last I heard and Supor Trucking cost us $11,000 for a hundred fifty mile move. Better put your efforts into saving the cars already saved at various museums. If you are talking about running these monsters, you will need four scrap cars of parts to be safe for a museum car. Parts wear down, vandalism, rust and body fatigue and braking/propulsion factors mandate the ability to keep an adequate supply of OEM on hand.
I'll 2nd what EngineBrake and TTPFKAMrR46 said on this matter:
the costs of buying and transporting a subway car are high.
I'd also agree that there are more preserved rail cars than
time/money/interest to maintain them. I'd recommend lending
your support to a museum. Locally, the Railway Preservation
Corp. group works weekly in Coney Island shops. Their current
project is a 3-car train of ABs. Shore Line Trolley Museum
would be the next closest. There are 5 operating ex-NYC
transit cars up there. At Kingston the above-mentioned gentlemen
are restoring an R-16. Further away there is Seashore Trolley
Museum in Kennebunkport Maine, which has a pair of operable
R-9s.
To the best of my knowledge, none of the local museums plan on
acquiring a "redbird", although that may change. The only
approved plan I know of is the Illinois Railway Museum, which is
getting an R-26 pair (it has to be an R-26 because their
motivation is ACF).
Speaking as a Seashore Instructor and former trustee, I can tell you that there's more to it than interest and money. Acquiring a vehicle - any kind - also requires that the car have an acquisition plan. This requires a commitment on the part of the project manager to raise the money, garner support from the trustees, write a curatorial plan, arrange the logistics, and most importantly - follow through when the car arrives. This includes such details as storage space, protection, mechanical & cosmetic upkeep, etc.
I was involved in Seashore's acquisition of the CTA 6000 series cars some years ago. It cost nearly $10,000 when we were done. And to this day, there is not enough money (or volunteer manpower) to give the cars the attention they deserve.
So as Erik, Jeff, and others have suggested, your VOLUNTEER TIME is just as important as your money.
I can also say that at Seashore, getting more rapid transit cars will probably have to wait until we have more storage space. Our yards are at gridlock! Come visit on the FieldTrip this summer (details to be posted shortly) and you'll see what I mean.
Does anyone have any information about this 'lost' "El". Unlike many others, it does not seem to be documented at this site. What is its history, and why was it taken down?
If it is not documented, it is probably because it has been gone so long like so many other els in Brooklyn. The "Last Lex" ran on Oct 13th, 1950. The el structure was razed shortly thereafter. The portion razed was from where it left the Broadway el just west of the Gates Ave station to where it joined the Myrtle Ave el at Myrtle and Grand. In its last years trains ran from Bridge-Jay St to Eastern Parkway, and during rush hours the trains were extended alternately out to 111th St in Woodhaven or Grant Ave in City Line.
Thank you for you response. I am interested in why the El was razed. Was it not well-used? Was it deteriorated? Was it determined that it did not pay to repair it? I am trying to understand the evolution of perceptions of elevated transit. I suspect that from around WWII to 1980 or so, Els were considered undesirable. I think that perception has changed in the last 20 years. I am not aware of any body of opinion presently in favor of destroying the remaining Els in NYC, or elsewhere. Too bad more of the old neighborhood Els did not survive to today, when they would be appreciated.
The Lexington was paralleled by the Myrtle. With the decline in the Navy Yard and Downtown Brooklyn, the duplication was unneeded. Further decline, and a growth of anti-El sentiment led to the fall of the Myrtle. Both were paralleled by the G, and both no longer went to Manhattan after 1944.
And if the financial, regulatory, and other obstacles to digging new subways on a realistic time scale could be overcome, the rest of the Els would be gone as well, except for the viaduct at 125th street, which is required to span the deep valley there.
I wonder if the high rises built on either side of the Pratt campus by Robert Moses in the early '50's had anything to do with the Lex's demise. He was in his "slum clearance" mode then. The brownstones he tore down would be worth $1.5mil each today.
Unlikely in Brooklyn that one development could be resposible for it.From what I've read the thought is that it was the oldest and to a large degree duplicated the Myrtle Avbe. service. Besides the anti-el mood at the time, many of the oldest els already being gone. I wish I had a chance to ride it but I can offer only one negative opinion.. I hate to think of the chaos in rush hour at its junction with the Broadway-Jamaica el, where a city bound train for Lex would have to cross both local and express tracks of the Jamaica bound.
The speculation I was making was that Moses wanted the el down before his "de-slumming" would begin.
The GG Crosstown duplicated the Lex el's service only as far as the Myrtle-Willoughby station, then it swings north toward Greenpoint & Queens. No direct connections were made with the BMT, except at Lorimer.
I think the Lex was gone before Moses' high rises went up, so if anything, it would have been the other way around, that the projects went up because the el was no longer there.
From the 40s through the 80s, the theory was every street where an el was removed would instantly have a better quality of life and higher property vaules, like Second, Third, Sixth and Ninth/Columbus avenues in Manhattan. The Third Avenue-Bronx and Jamaica area el foul-ups have pretty much shot that theory down in flames.
Very true; not to forget how many neighborhoods with els going thru them have been stable since the year of... whatever catastrophe you can name; how about WW1..the era most of the existing els were built... a few newer, a few older.
Of course property values would go up once an el is dismantled!!!
But if the neighborhood is not given an adequte alternative mass transit option once the el is taken down, then that property loses easy access to other sections of the city (and vice-versa), and becomes less desirable, at least in terms of the small businesses that tend to locate along the city's elevated lines.
The stretch from 121st to 168th Street in Jamaica may have a lot more sunlight nowadays, but the decade there was no train service going out there was definitely not great in terms of the businesses located along the route. And the fewer businesses there are in an area, the less desirable it becomes for residents, unless you're talking about some suburban gated community where the family has three SUVs to hop over to the mall whenever they want to.
This is definitely not always the case. For example, there are large gentrified and gentrifying (sp.?) areas of Chicago that are dependent on Els for downtown access. The loss of those els, in the absence of replacement by a subway (which is absolutely out of the question in terms of public finance) would be an absolutely devastating blow to large swaths of Chicago. I think that the El as a blighting factor is overblown. And to the extent that an El is a burden on one particular street, it is very much made up by the tremendous contribution it makes to values on all the adjacent street and neighborhoods.
You're right about there being little clamor for tearing down remaining els. The reason is probably because the public knows that it will be a long time or never before it sees a subway-replacement line.
Case in point-- the long-awaited 2nd Ave. Subway. The only 2 recent el destructions that I know about occurred outside NYC. The Orange Line el in Boston, which was replaced by ground-level trackage, and part of the Green Line in Chicago, which was not replaced.
There was definately a move to try to get rid of all of the els in the 1930's and 1940's. Manhattan lost all of theirs. I was quite the fan of the open platform gate cars in those days and they were the only type used on both the Myrtle and the Lex then. I rode back and forth on both the Myrtle and Lex as a gate car railfan in the late 1940's, and interestingly enough I never noticed that there were more passengers on the Myrtle Ave trains than on the Lexington Ave trains, yet the Myrtle Ave Line outlasted the Lex by just about 19 years. Of course, most of my railfan trips were on Saturdays and Sundays, and that could have a lot to do with usage.
Come to think of it, I've never seen a picture of Brooklyn's Lexington Avenue with the el, from a platform, or from street level. It's really an undocumented el. Remember, there are pictures readily available of the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Ave els, and even the late lamented Culver Shuttle is pretty well documented.
Pretty much the only extant remnant of the Lex is on Hagstrom maps...Lex Ave is drawn wider than the other avenues, because they had to fit a thick line for the el there until 1950.
So...anyone have pics of the Lex?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The only ones I have seen are in the Transit Authority archives, and the ones taken on the Pratt Institute campus, before,during, and after the el's razing.
This el was virtually unchanged from its steam days, and the width of Grand Ave. pretty much prevented any "modern" surface traffic. One can see how narrow it really was by walking on Grand Walk in Pratt, and see the outlines of where the pillars were vs the curbs.
That station at Grand/Myrtle intersection was something else. There was also an equally wacky arrangement station like this further downtown on Fulton St.
>>>> One can see how narrow it really was by walking on Grand Walk in Pratt,
and see the outlines of where the pillars were vs the curbs.<<<
Thanks! Gives me an idea for ...
You know what...
Are nonstudents allowed on campus? I was able to get into the grounds when i lived in Brooklyn, but that was 9 years ago last time I was there.
Yes the campus grounds are generally open to the public. Only the school's buildings are restricted, sort of.
If you dont appear to be doing anything destructive, security will leave you alone. It is an art school, so cameras are commonplace.
View the historic power plant as well. It still makes DC power.
The only ones I have seen are in the Transit Authority archives, and the ones taken on the Pratt Institute campus, before,during, and after the el's razing.
This el was virtually unchanged from its steam days, and the width of Grand Ave. pretty much prevented any "modern" surface traffic. One can see how narrow it really was by walking on Grand Walk in Pratt, and see the outlines of where the pillars were vs the curbs.
That station at Grand/Myrtle intersection was something else. There was also an equally wacky arrangement station like this further downtown on Fulton St.
Here's one, from this website: The caption says it's at Greene Ave.
Here's another one. Location unknown.
Thanks. Were one-car trains the rule on the Lex, at least in non-rush hours?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The pic seems to show a 3 car BU gate car set.
Kevin,
Are you looking at the same pictures that I am? The two pictures that Chris posted are of a three car train. The three car train was the normal non-rush hour train on the Lex and also the Myrt. Rush hour trains were five or six cars. Five car trains ran to 111th St and six car trains ran to Grant Ave. My gateman friend told me that they had two car trains during the overnight hours. I can't verify that because I never road the gate cars in the middle of the night. I do know early in the morning, the first two gate trains to 111th St were two car trains, the next two were three car trains, and all were five car trains after that until the end of rush, and they would reduce train length back down to three car trains again.
I'm very interested in the Lexington Av El since I drive down Lex almost every day from Bway/Ralph to Marcus Garvey (Sumner) at work. While looking at the second picture at http://www.nycsubway.org/cgi-bin/subtalk.cgi?read=116202 the photo looks like it could be some sort of viaduct rather than an el like the "7" on Queens Blvd or the MN on Park Av. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong but to the right of the cars on the street level it looks like there are wooden ties. Is the anyone out there who can set the record straight and explain the picture? Karl?
Jeff,
I think if we are both looking at the same ties, that they are the extra long ties that support the track walk alongside the track. The angle that the picture was taken just makes it look like they are down by the cars. Try to make out the stanchions for the two pipe trackside railing, and get them in perspective with the planks of the trackside walk and I think you will see what I mean. The Lex was a very old fashioned lightweight el structure, and I always thought that it might not have been as high above the street as the el on Broadway. Still, I dont think you would want to jump from those ties down to where the cars are.
There sure aren't many vehicles on the street, are there? There just wasn't much traffic during WWII, and immediately thereafter. It took several years for traffic to build up after the rationing caused by the war. During the war it was easier to use public transportation for everything. If parking is permitted on that street now, I imagine that the curb is lined solid with vehicles.
Actually Karl, Lexington Av is still a lightly used street with not alot of cars parked on it. There are a number of abandoned warehouses, garages, & junkyards on it which I think was because of the el because all the parallel streets are filled with brownstones and alot of cars parked on them.
I appreciate seeing these old pics. They have a lot of character, and tell a story. I can see that the El structure probably would not support a modern subway. I guess that's why it was torn down. But where at this site are these images located? Please let me know.
This website, in the old els heirerchy ...
Thanks Chris, Those two pictures bring back a lot of memories. If you look to the extreme right of the first picture, you can see how narrow the ends of those short stations were on the Lex. The ends of the original station at Marcy Ave on Broadway narrowed down the same way. It's hard to believe, but true. Both pictures look like 2 of the 600 series BU's with a 1200 coupled between them. I am surprised that the front door is open. If the stormdoor had been closed, I could tell for sure, it is just possible that the front car might be from the 900 series They used to keep the very front and rear doors closed and locked. Passengers could stand on the platforms between cars, but were not permitted on the very front or rear platform of the train, nor could they enter or leave the train from them. The gatemen were always stationed between cars.
I like those light fixtures in the Greene Avenue photo - they look like French Horns mounted on crook-armed masts, most unusual. I wonder if any of the other stations had these.
Wayne
The Rockaway line had similiar fixtures before they rehabbed the line.
Karl, the fact that the stormdoors are open suggests that it could have been a fan trip or something like that. The cars under the el on the second picture suggests it could be around 1950 when service was discontinued.
Sarge,
The "Last Lex" was run on Oct 13th, 1950. It left Eastern Parkway at 9PM at night, was a six car train of 1300's, was packed with people standing everywhere, and made a round trip to Bridge-Jay St and back. Any gate train fan trip was normally a train of extra cars, and was packed with people. The gate cars had a lot of fans in those days. You could ride on the same cars that your grandparents rode on.
I think that this train is an ordinary non-rush hour train, carrying regular revenue passengers. I just don't understand why the storm door is open! It never was when I rode them, even on the hottest day.
Chris,
Can you give me a link to the site where you found these great Lex BU pictures? I can't find it on my own! Thank You!
They're on this site.
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/old-els
Thank You Dave! I have bookmarked the site so I will never lose it now. I enjoyed looking at all of those pictures again.
I have to ask this. The picture listed as bmtg01.jpg looks like two Manhattan El cars equipped with subway shoes. Some of them were equipped like that to serve on the Dyre Ave line when the city took it over in 1941. The terrain even looks like the Dyre Ave line. this picture technically isn't BMT. is it?
That answers it! bmtc16.jpg shows the lead to the missing sixth track leading up Snediker Avenue towards Atlantic Avenue. I was always curious as to how that track originated.
Of course, there's the flyover to the Canarsie line visible as well; the stub of it won't be around too much longer; pity.
Wayne
My names/captions are best guess. Obviously I have been wrong on some of them. Some day I'll re-arrange them but I don't really have any framework in mind for organizing them.
Since Greene Av is the next street parallel to Lexington N/O it I assume that station is over Grand Av. Also it looks like the track is turning left after the station which I would think is Lexington. Does anyone know for sure?? Karl??
Sarge,
I don't know what to think. If that is really the Greene Ave Station, the sign board should say Bridge-Jay St, not Eastern Parkway which indicates to me that the train is going the other way. You know, the train must be signed wrong, it has to be going to Bridge-Jay St. I'll bet that Larry Redbird could tell for sure.
Looks like they forgot to change the sign. Lexington goes westbound then turns right into Grand. Greene Avenue station would be one block above Lexington. The train in the photo is heading for Bridge/Jay Street or beyond, not Eastern Parkway.
Typical BRT/BRT elevated line; 100-foot radius curves...
Wayne
Is it possible that this can be explained by the photo-reversal effect?
Nope then the letters on the sign would be backwards. They're not.
wayne
Screech! Scree-eeee-ech!!
Remember that these lines were built in the Victorian era where one was forced to express his desire to see "curves" in something not pertaining to the female of the species. Those sharp curves must indicate serious repression....lol.
Yes, and evidence of it still exists today, east of Cresc. (though it's been eased); also in Chicago, the loop and several other spots around town, forcing them to use 48-foot cars the curves are so tight. I guess they figured if streetcars could do it, why not trains?
I saw a photo of the Fulton El east of A.A. - the curve e. of Chestnutt Street looks to be every bit as tight as the one on the Lex. ave. El. There was another one too further up the line, west of Crescent St. I would have LOVED to have ridden these two curves aboard the MS, which IIRC went out to Lefferts on occasion. Watch 'em snake their way around the 100-foot curves. Just like the HBLR MS Kinkisharyo cars. They have a TERRIBLY tight curve north of Liberty State Park there (among other places); the LRV went around it in eerie silence. Can't wait till they open to Pavonia-Newport, I hear that stretch is going to be absolutely serpentine.
Wayne
I love it when you can see the front of the train from the back and vice versa. I like to stand at Myrtle Avenue, watching an M train come in from Myrtle, disappear around a corner and then "mysteriously" appear in the back of the station. It doesn't SEEM like the same train.
05/03/2000
[I love it when you can see the front of the train from the back and vice versa. I like to stand at Myrtle Avenue, watching an M train come in from Myrtle, disappear around a corner and then "mysteriously" appear in the back of the station. It doesn't SEEM like the same train.]
Ahh yes! the mysteries of the BMT Eastern Division !
Bill Newkirk
I've seen that happen many times in my travels.
This happens on the northbound "L" train leaving Sutter Avenue, where the line swings east from Van Sinderen to Snediker Avenues. What an "S" curve THAT is! Probably happens at other places around the Eastern Division as well. The reverse curve east of Myrtle is well known for that.
wayne
I'll bet you would have loved the multis on the Canarsie as well. Who knows just how fast they took those curves in the subway portion? Can you imagine how fast they went through the 14th St. tunnel?
When you saw "Multis" on a curve, you just naturally thought SNAKE!
O, weeping wheels; they scream and cry like banshees in the night, singing their siren song, steel on steel...
Ever ride from City Hall south to Cortlandt (and so on to Whitehall) aboard a D-Type Triplex? That's a regular OPERA. And I remember the OLD H&M terminal... OUCH!
Wayne
I have yet to experience a ride of any kind on the Triplexes. Someday, if there's a fantrip when I'm in the city...
One of the hazards of being too young.As my name implies I'm really an IRT man but rode my share of D types and AB's. They were both a treat but riding a D type on the Brighton express was a charm, likewise the Sea Beach but I have to give prefernce to the Brighton. Those were the days we had real trains but I learned to live with the modern stuff when I visit. Much of it is old now.
Most of our veteran Subtalkers know this already, and I apologize for rehashing this, but had fate been kinder, I would have ridden on the Triplexes during their final days of operation. We were in the city on July 21 and 22, 1965 and rode exclusively on Southern Division trains, but I didn't see any Triplex trains. On top of that, we visited my father's cousin on the evening of the 21st, and he lived right off New Utrecht by the 71st St. station on the West End. I was mesmerized by the rumbling acceleration sounds those trains made, but did more listening than looking and didn't notice any old, articulating trains. Their last day of service was July 23, and we left for home that very morning.
Steve B, I am always amazed at your posts, and your ability to refer to specific dates from so many years ago.
Did you keep a railfan journal too? If so, were you criticized about doing so?
Hi Karl B.. did you find the reply I sentlast night under this topic.. a bit late? Hope it completes your picture of the Broadway-Jamaica line service. Indeed I thought I had a photographic memory but indeed Steve B. has me beat. Incidentally do you remember the beloved ex-IND r9 types (plus some older versions) running on that el. They ended their days on the Eastern lines and it was nice having the last of the old breed on an el line... almost like a brief reincarnation of the AB's. A rare instance of older equipment (l936-l940) that looked more like the 20's replacing the R27,30 of l960-61 vintage if only for a few years.
Biged, I did indeed miss your post, but I have found it now. I had completely forgotten about the other train, because I never used it.
I left in 1957, so I never saw R-9's on the Jamaica train. I did see R-10's in 1954, but I'm sure that doesn't count.
Steve B has to have kept a log just the way I did. I sure hope that he did not get all the flack that I did from friends back then. My friends thought I was crazy to write down subway car #s and things like that. Who knows, maybe I was! :)
We all kept them in Baltimore in the 1960's. Vehicle, Block, Line, & Destination. I still have all of mine. We even used color codes (all done with a plethora of color pens - real ones, no ballpoints!! Blue for buses, Red for rail, green for Trolley coach /Railroad. I quit when I started operating, for every trip was a streetcar one.
Welcome to the club. I had a log book ofIRT Low-V, Steinway etc that I rode, likewise later I kept an AB log and Rl-9 log. All gone now; from the Rl0 up none of it mattered. Have to admit riding the redbirds now is almost, but not quite like catching a Low-V 40 years ago. Trust me, not only railfans are meshugah, loco or whatever. Some others only act sane.
I've been spotting unit numbers since April 7, 1969 - I've got master lists for everything from R10 up to date, plus other systems as well (DC, PATH, HBLR, LIRR, &c) I used to have a paper R-1 thru R-9 master list but it got lost - HOWEVER I did have the numbers in my Grey Book, which, of course weren't in any order - SO I cobbled them together into a 1-2-3 workbook. It did the trick. Perhaps one day I'll recreate the original using the 1-2-3 workbook as a guide.
I have 1-2-3 workbooks for all car types and fleets based on the original spiral books, I keep them all up to date.
I am down to a mere handful of NYCT cars which I haven't spotted yet - six R62As and one R68. I haven't officially started the R142/142A yet. I will do so when they officially enter service.
wayne
Believe it or not....
OK, to set the record straight, I never kept any subway log of any kind in those days except for a list of marker light combinations in 1984-85. I do have a long, long memory, which is how I can pop out on-this-date info. It's a running joke in our family.
I'd say the honor of the most extensive log has to go to Mr. Slant R-40 himself. Say, Wayne, how many R-1s do you have in your car number log?
Talking about train log books I was always a big railfan but I never concerned myself with logging numbers. However I must admit that as a kid I had a gradmother whose living room window was right at the corner of Newkirk Av & New York Av in the Vanderveer Bldgs (my other grandmother lived on 20th Av near the Sea Beach) and I would stare out her window and keep a list of the bus numbers on New York Av. I differentiated between old style GM's (Ralph Kramden types) and fishbowls I basically charted it to see how long it would take to come back a second time and if it was in the same order. The return trip was on Nostrand. Also where I grew up in East Meadow I knew every number of the Hempstead Bus Company buses on Front Street. They had 4 types; Macks, fishbowls, Flexibles, and a forth type that seemed older than the Macks that I had no idea what kind. (definitely not GM's though)
Steve - would you believe it I don't have a countable log for R-1?
I DO however have one for each of the other early R classes:
R-4: 410 out of 500
R-6: 466 out of 500 (all R-6 types)
R-7: 223 out of 253 (R-7 and R-7A)
R-9: 145 out of 150
As you can see, I have most of the Eastern Division R-7 and R-9 as well as the Queens R-6s. The R-4s I saw were primarily "CC" and "D" trains, however, some of the higher-numbered cars were found on lines like the "EE" and "GG".
I would have to go back to the Grey Book and audit it to find all of the numbers between 100 and 399 that I saw. There weren't too many.
I started spotting on April 7, 1969, right around the time that the R-1 was heading for the scrap heap. There were SOME around, but not too many. My guess is that I have fewer than 100 of the 300 total.
I would have to check all of the lines on which I MIGHT have seen the R-1, which would be "A", "AA", "B", "CC" and perhaps "D". If I remember correctly, R-1 was assigned to Concourse and 207th Street.
Wayne
Since virtually all of the prewar A, AA, CC, and D trains I rode on (and there weren't many) did not have headlights, it sounds as if the R-1s and R-4s were indeed assigned to 207th and Concourse yards. Now I wish I had recorded car numbers of those old timers.
I set my sign box to AA in honor of the 33rd anniversary of my first ride on an 8th Ave. train on May 7, 1967. The first IND train of any kind I ever rode on was most likely a D, from 34th St. to Rockefeller Center, a week earlier. It was a prewar train, and since someone posted earlier that virtually all F trains back then were R-38s, I'm going to assume it was a D. We did take a D all the way to Coney Island, via the Culver line, after lunch.
At the time you mention likely the Rl and R4 were "uptown". About the time I was promoted to motorman. There was a changeover as for years previous I can remember there was a mix of high and low numbers uptown and in Queens. Queens had loo-l50, all the 300's, 400-799, and I believe l490-l802. I could be wrong but that's what I remember.Rarely was an Rl-9 on the A, maybe there was one a day? but the AA,CC,D were all these great cars! l50-299,800-l189..I think.If noothing else those were the assignments until some time in l967.
When I started trainspotting the R-1 thru R-9 were pretty much allocated as follows:
"A" RARE - see "E" saw this maybe three times
"AA" R-1
"B" R-1
"CC" R-1 and R-4 (see "D")
"D" R-4 (400-700)
"E" R-4 (700-800), R-6, R-7
"EE" same as "E"
"F" same as "E"
"GG" same as "E"
"HH" same as "E"
"KK" R-7a and R-9
"LL" same
"M" same
"N" NONE
"QB" VERY VERY RARE, see "D" only saw this once.
"QJ" see "KK"
"RR" NONE
wayne
Prettyb close to my thought and memories; as I said there was a change as many cars were transferred from Concourse to Jamaica and vice versa. Until about l967 all the R6 cars were on the concourse. For a couple of years I guess, give or take some time, there was one QB trip a day, always the same schedule, that used the museum Rl-9 train, 8 cars of it every day. In the early 70's but i don't remember the exact years. (When I referred to Concourse cars I meant to include those used on the Wash. Heights locals) The QJ usually got one R7/9 train a day, maybe more. I used to be lucky to catch it for a while (nobody else wanted it... I loved them1)
There's a photo in New York (City) Subway Cars of the Museum train on the QB, with 1440 heading the consist. The QB sign appears to have been taken from an original R-32 roller curtain.
I'm willing to bet they used the museum train in Nighthawks, and wonder which unlucky car got its storm door window kicked out by Stallone.
I can count on one hand the number of prewar A trains I ever rode on, and unfortunately, I never caught one for a CPW joyride (I did ride on three R-1/9 D trains on that stretch). All of my A rides on them were between 59th St. and 14th St., and IIRC, none of them had headlights. I vivdly remember the one I caught at 59th St. once. As it started up, moaning and groaning away, the bull and pinion gears gave off two tones at once, about a third apart, exactly the same as the stock sounds of fighter plane engines you hear on TV (McHale's Navy comes to mind). Oh, I loved that sound! When we got to the crash wall between the express tracks beyond all the switches, the gears sang out in all their glory, loud and clear. The I-beams were silhouettes as we moved along. I wish I could remember what pitch the gears got up to as our train roared down the incline towards 42nd St.; chances are it was at least G above middle C. I would have gladly stayed on that train all the way to its terminus, but, alas, I had a bus to catch and had to get off.
The R-10s were great, and you know how I feel about them, but a ride on a prewar A train was a real, albeit rare, treat.
P. S. Would you happen to know which group started failing left and right in Queens in August of 1966?
I believe those were R1 and R6 series cars normally assigned to Jamaica.
I'll bet most of them were simply retired right then and there once the R-38s had all been delivered.
I always hated the Rl0 (also Rl2/l4) but the Rl-9 is next dearest to me for subways anyway behind the old IRT stuff. I appreciated your thoughts a couple of weeks ago about these and the BMT standard. TYhe BMT a-b were much quieter riding than the R1-9, kind of like riding a conversion van compared to the unfinished panel truck type. But th e R1-9 sould highball, they were a wonderful piece of equipment when good. I was a conductor in Queens in Aug.66 and sadlly the Rl-9 were in pitiful shape in the summer of 66.I didn't see where the Rl or R4 were worse or better than the R7/9, but the Queens fleet then was l00-l49; 300-799 or 814; from there on were "uptown"; then from about l490 thru l802 again were Queens cars. This changed about a year lateras cars were swapped between Queens and the Concourse & Heights.
And in 1968 a bunch of them (#1440 thru #1802) went to Eastern Division to replace BMT Standards being phased out; R40s were being phased in.
wayne
Right! Much to my pleasure I might add. I'd have been happier thundering along the IND with them but it was neat haviong them on the J line, seemed right to have the last of the classics complete with that dear traction motor sound, on a line that was nearly all el.(Classics for NYCT anyway, there were similar types elsewhere that outklived the R1-9.) I might add that later on cars of the l360's up, or l370's to l439, not exactly sure when, went to the Eastern so some R6's did run there if onl;y a few. I'll say here that your name Slant R40 was my favorite of the B division SMEE's. They were the nicest handling of all the stainless steel cars..and with the possible exception of the R27/30 the best B division SMEE. IMHO.
Yes, at the very end the 1300-series R-6 did go off to Eastern Division, to replace R-7 and R-9 cars that had already gone to scrap.
The GOH of the R42s was still ten years off, so the post R-7/R-9 period in the Eastern Division showed haphazard and poorly-maintained equipment, mostly R27-R30 and R16.
Slant R40s run today on the "Q", "N" and "L", with a pair of trains running on the "B" on weekends. I've been told there's one loose on the "J" now, as well. I'd like to see that one. They are still smooth-riding and as frisky as they ever were.
Wayne
And the slants were a worthy successor to the R-10s on the A in the late 70s. That A train of slants I took on Easter Sunday in 1978 up CPW positively smoked. Those local stations were nothing more than blurs.
So you witnessed that whole episode firsthand, then, didn't you? Larry Redbird R-33 posted that story some time ago, about how the R-38s were pressed into service on the E and F lines right after they were delivered. Because of a strike at St. Louis Car Co., R-38 deliveries were slow, and since so many R-1/9s were failing, they had to borrow 32 R-16s for GG service. The ripple effect didn't stop there, as a group of condemned BMT standards were yanked off the scrap line and put back in revenue service.
What was it like being a conductor on those cars, what with all the climbing on and off the step plates? And is that why you didn't care for those cars you mentioned? I used to love to watch the conductor assume the position and work the trigger boxes, and that includes the R-10s. Their brute speed capability was second to none.
I also thought the BMT standards were somewhat quieter than the R-1/9s; however, part of the reason may have been the BMT's ballasted trackbeds as opposed to the IND's ties in concrete.
Yes you have the story right on the Queens lines in l966; Actually I loved the R1-9 dearly.. I guess I just didn't like the ambience of the R10's, never even liked them as a child railfan.. found the interiors depressing and they made an awful lot noise with windows open, windows closed they seemed the quietesrt of SMEE's. I sort of liked them as a motorman if you got a good R10; there were a lot of bad ones in the late 60's. As for being up on the steps it never bothered me but did get tiring.. I figured in the average day's work I climbed ll stories, only time it was difficult was on an el in bad weather.. steel sure gets cold. As a motorman I still liked the R1-9 best of any..AB's OK, liked the Q's, of course. Best SMEE was the slant R40 with the R27/30 being next. Indeed the AB's were quieter than the R1-9, not just for the roadbed, felt the bodies were more solid and of course with one smaller motor on each truck the beloved gear sounds weren't as loud, it seemed. You may not believe this but the R1-9 were quieter on the els than any SMEE. I used to shop on Jamaica Ave. and could hear the difference; in working all the equipment the R38 were the noisioest, then the R10.
I was a regular Saturday commuter from 1967 to 1970, and it always included a ride on an A train from 42nd to 14th Sts. In fact, I insisted on taking an A train even if it meant being late for school. Once I found out that E trains marked, "E/8th Ave. Express" stopped at 23rd St., I avoided them at all costs. And since the R-10s ruled the A line, I didn't ride on much else on the IND except R-32s on the D. I never thought the R-10s were noisy back in those days; however, since most of my riding was done during the fall and winter months, the windows and storm doors were often closed. Naturally, the CPW express jaunt was where the R-10s strutted their stuff, so to speak. They were the perfect cars for that stretch. If we had time before our bus was scheduled to leave from Port Authority, you'd find me with my nose pressed against the railfan window as the A train I was on roared along CPW. I can honestly say I never encountered a sluggish R-10. Their doors were anything but sluggish; they had the fastest doors in New York.
The best way to describe the R-1/9s was a glorious symphony of sounds: moans, groans, grunts, snarls, hisses, and the ever-present throbbing of the air compressors. The topper was the droning, wailing, whining, and howling of the spur-cut bull and pinion gears. Those cars are in a dead heat with the R-10s as being my all-time favorite subway cars.
There were two things about the BMT standards which made me dislike them: three sets of doors per side and no signs up front. Make that three: I thought they looked awful. Since we rode on the Canarsie line every Saturday back them, I didn't have much choice. OTOH, their bodies were solid, all right. Those cars were indestructible, probably the toughest subway cars ever built. What can you say about a car which could take out a row of I-beams and walk away with nothing more than scrapes and bruises, at most a broken light bulb?
Probably have to add the Dtypes in with the way you describe the AB's..that makesone other type! As for favorites mine were actually the IRT High-V and Low-V carts in that order, my only experience with them was Low-v's as work motors. But that was the glory days of the IRT although some may think otherwise.Judging from your feelings on the A-B and R1-9 I can tell you're somewhat tuned to my wavelength, younger no doubt [I'm 57] so weren't around when basically the Rl0's were the only cars that didn't mirror your description ofthe R1-9.On the performance/failure subject thje Rl0 didn't suffer the airline contamination (by oil leaking from compressors)that the R1-9 had, especially the Jamaica fleet, the most obvious problem to passengers being slow or stuck doors but also brake problems and motor control problems as they were electropneumatic. I'd guess l967 for 2-3 years the Rl0's had many motor,control, dynamic problems, and a n excess number of break-in-two's resulted from the draft gear getting hammered. I'm getting too long winded for the website, perhaps you could direct your thought to my handle plus @msn.com
The R-1/9s and BMT standards were the only prewar cars I rode on in revenue service. I missed out on the Triplexes, sad to say, and while the last of the Lo-Vs were still running on the 3rd Ave. el when I became a serious subway student, I never rode on them. Saw the Qs once or twice on the Myrtle Ave. el, but didn't ride on them.
The very first subway train I ever took was an N of shiny new R-32s in 1965. In fact, had it not been for that regular Saturday commute and weekly rides on the A, I may very likely would have become a BMT fanatic instead of the IND fan I am now. Not that I don't care for BMT lines - the Southern Division as a whole is very special. There were times when we would ditch the Canarsie at Union Square after school let out and take an N for a nice, speedy run to Times Square. I would say I wanted to take a BMT train with LETTER MARKINGS up front, and an N of R-27s or R-32s fit the bill nicely.
BTW, I wish the R-10s had kept that racy teal-and-white paint scheme with the narrow stripe a while longer. That was my favorite paint job of all.
I got plenty of flack from my sister for becoming immersed in the subway. It all came to a head when we were getting ready to go to Montreal and Expo 67. When I found out about Montreal's new Metro, I got all excited, to which my sister replied, "All you ever want to do is ride on the subway, ride on the subway..." Her exact words, too.
The R-7As and R-9s were in the Eastern Division from around late 1967 to their retirement in 1975-6. They were beautifully ughly beasts, especially with their awful NYCT grey/blue exterior (and puke-pistachio green) interior paint schemes, bare bulbs, nasty fans and back-breaking fiberglas bench seats [except for the 1400-series R-7As, which, somehow managed to retain their wicker/red vinyl]. Lumbering, lazy, lovely.
Wayne
Guess my idea of beauty was the old riveted steel equipment whether on rapid transit or the big roads. Actually they weren't really lumbering; remember how they'd thunder along on the D,E,F lines?Agood train of the Rl-9 types could roll along on the Jamaica el but nothing really felt fast on the Eastern lines as a rule. In the last days some of the fleet were R6 cars from roughly l370-l399, and some l932=33 vintage R4's were about with renumbering to replace some R7 or R9 types that were scrapped. Yoou're right about the fiberglass seats, they were a nightmare..Thanks for the memories.
All of the R-7/9s I ever rode on the Canarsie had the two-tone blue interior finish. The older R-1s thru R-6s had that light green interior paint which, incidentally, my sign box has. Plus the R-7/9 doors sounded different from earlier cars. I can readily hear the difference on heypaul's tape.
Thanks for the compliment. I should also point out that while I have a long memory, it is not photographic. My father has that.
I never kept journals, but I remember the dates I last rode retired cars classes:
R16: 3/22/87
R10: 2/14/89
R30: 1/16/93
R17: 6/21/87
In each case, I never realized that particular trip would be my last ...
I can remember a few last rides on certain cars myself.
R-4: July 1971 (the exact date escapes me).
R-7/9: June 6, 1970
R-10: October 26, 1988
R-16: October 30, 1986
R-30: November 1, 1989
R-17: October 26, 1984
BMT standards: April or May 1969
Yep, that photo is on Grand, with the el making the tight turn to the left toward Bwy. The train is signed wrong, and is headed toward Bridge-Jay. The buildings in the background are still there. Also noticed how deteriorated the infrastructure looked. I bet it hadn't even been painted since 1888, or at least since they electrified it.
The other photo is on Lex., the street is much wider, and did you see how everyone paid attention to right hand rule and parked where they felt like?
Gret pics. I am wondering why I was born 30 years too late.
Tell me about it.
Yep, that photo is on Grand, with the el making the tight turn to the left toward Bwy. The train is signed wrong, and is headed toward Bridge-Jay. The buildings in the background are still there. Also noticed how deteriorated the infrastructure looked. I bet it hadn't even been painted since 1888, or at least since they electrified it.
The other photo is on Lex., the street is much wider, and did you see how everyone paid attention to right hand rule and parked where they felt like?
Gret pics. I am wondering why I was born 30 years too late.
Thank you for all the new el pix.
I am still looking for that elusive pic of Franklin Jct (off the Fulton Ave line).
The Lexington Avenue El closed on 1950. It closed because of lack ridership and it probely would closed because the el was not rebuilt during the duel contracts which kept s steel subway cars from operating on it. One of the unsual things about this line. The branch off the Myrtle Avenue El at Grand Avenue. There was an unusal station located there. The Grand Avenue Stop had one platform. It was triangular shaped right on the junction. Only Manhattan bound Lexington Trains stopped there and only Queens bound Myrtle Trains stopped at this station. The station closed when the line was discontinued. The line merged into the Broadway Brooklyn Line South of the Gates Avenue Station. The Gates Avenue Tower was located above the station. The trains orginally whent to Park Row but was cut back to Bridge Street in 1944 after service across the Brooklyn Bridge was discontinued. In the opposite direction service terminated at Eastern Parkway some trains terminated at 111 Street during Rush Hour.
There have been a number of threads on this forum concerning finding traces of the Lex. I work in the area and find no trace of its junction with the Bway El at Ralph Av just W/O the Gates Station. I understood there was traces in the metalwork/gridwork as late as 10 years ago. I assume they eradicated it when they got rid of the wooden walkways and metal railings. There is a slight difference in the gridwork at Ralph/Lexington which I thought was the turnoff till I found the same type of gridwork at several other locations on the Bway El that had no turnoffs. The only slight evidence if you can call it that is the differences in architecture on Lex than on the surrounding parallel streets. Lex has almost no brownstones compared to the parallel streets which are almost all brownstones. The street is mostly commercial an industrial. The apartment houses that are on Lex are mostly newer, built after the demolition of the el. Also the buildings are set further back than on parallel streets.
sarge...you forgot to mention that lexington avenue was also the original home of the susquehanna hat company before it moved to bagel street and then later to floogle street...
Paul,
If the el was still there, that safe would have landed on the el not on the street from the 13th floor and that poor lady's husband would still be around now. (over 100 yrs old though)
Yeah, I know the routine was written before the el was taken down--mere technicalities!!!
i never let technicalities get in my way...
the last couple of days, i have been constantly replaying in my head a scene from the abbott and costello tv show in which hillary brooke was a nurse in a hospital... lou hadn't been sleeping and despite the best efforts of sidney fields the psychiatrist he had to be taken to a hospital... on his way in hillary brooke constantly reminds him to speak in a whisper, because it is a hospital... when she goes to tell the doctor that lou costello has arrived, she screams into an intercom: MR LOUIS COSTELLO IS HERE!! which is followed by three or four echoes with different voices screaming the same thing... thinking about that scene brings a smile to my face...
>>>i have been constantly replaying in my head a scene from the abbott and
costello tv show in which hillary brooke was a nurse in a hospital<<
Hillary?
HILLARY?!!
Slowly I turned...step by step...inch by inch...
www.forgotten-ny.com
You shoudda done that last Wednesday, when she was on CNN up near Niagra Falls :)
Niagara Falls?????
Sloooooooowly I TURN..... STEP by STEP.......INCH by INCH.......
And then.... ...***!#$%$~***[bop!]*#$%½"&%{mash!!!}$%!@#¢(((crunch!!!)))^$%+!@"$&!!!
:o>
OK, looks like someone has been watching too much of the cartoon channel ...
Bad enough it's Monday, do we have to bring up Hillary. It's enough to make one want to heave. I have this dream I'm motoring the Sea Beach and as I'm about to exit the tunnel after 59th Street I see Hillary standing on the tracks and...........then I wake up.
Is she right in the path of your train, and is it a train of Triplexes?:-)
GET THE HOOK!!!!!
Now Kevin, you know Paul was talking about Hillary Brooke, the tall blond from Abbott & Costello that I've had a crush on for over 35 years.
Oh, that Hillary. I liked her, too. I had a crush on Kristine Miller, who used to be on "Stories of the Century" with Jim
Davis. It was about two railroad detectives that chased outlaws and caught bad guys. I thought Miss Miller was so captivating that I named by daughter Christine but spelled it differently.
Didn't Abbott & Costello do a bit about Floogle St.? I think one of them was looking for 222 Floogle St. or something like that.
Rail Tapes has a video of the Lexington Ave El. It's Tape #VE-39. The address is: Rail Tapes, C/O Victor H. Gordon, Jr., 2570 Colvin Hill Road, Danby, VT 05739-9748. Phone # 802-293-5421.
Did anyone notice that the SIRT tracks that lead west from St. George Terminal are gone? I saw they removed them to make room for some kind of new stadium (I think). Where does CSX-Conrail join in? Won't the trip next week be a lot more boring without tracks? I got a photo of the furthest extent of the SIRT trains west of the terminal at:
http://autoexecbat.tripod.com/sir06.jpg
Dan
Good to see other subtalkers yesteday (April 28) photographing the new HBLR. Nice operation - smooth, quiet cars, good announcements. Stations simple but very well designed. Very fast south of Liberty State Park. But very s-l-o-w going through Jersey City between Exchange Place and Liberty State Park - probably due to many street grade crossings.
Since I didn't ride to West Side Ave. - is that branch on private r.o.w. or is it street running? I'll have to return another day.
The West Side Ave Branch is a private right of way with three grade crossings. It has the only section to be cut into the bedrock.
Dan
From what I was told, the West Side Ave. branch of HBLR runs on the former cut (depressed railway) of the old NJ Central RR. Much of it was filled in to create a street-level ROW.
The West Side Ave. line also has the distinction of having the only grated grade-crossings (near Garfield Ave.) on the Hudson-Bergen system.
Doug aka BMTman
I noticed the following while riding yesterday:
(1) Four or five other Subtalkers riding the 11:36 (approx.) out of Exchange Place toward West Side Avenue.
(2) Ticket validator gave me only 60 minutes instead of 90.
(3) T/O road relief just south of Liberty State Park station, adjacent to maintenance facility.
(4) West Side Avenue station doesn't seem more than 3/8 of a mile from the Hudson Mall - just far enough to annoy those unaccustomed to walking. How viable is that mall, anyway, and why wasn't the West Side branch extended to it? (Lobbying from the Newport Mall people, perhaps?)
(5) Security staff provided a barely-conscious uniformed presence, but didn't check tickets.
(6) "Traffic checkers" and "helpers" at some stations. Do they work for NJT or the service contractor?
mr. marshall... i hope you run gotham bus company better than your watch runs... i think the 4 of us left exchange place probably closer to 11:06 am... if your watch read 11:36, then that would account for the apparent shortchanging of 90 minutes on your ticket...
if i must say so myself, this was an excellent bit of deductive reasoning...
the security guards on board do not check for tickets... what their duties are a puzzle to me too...
I managed to take a little tour of the not-in-service section with Dave. Anyone want to know how they build those tracks into the concrete? Well, I got pictures. :) I'll upload them when I restore the software to my computer.
-Hank
But are they going to have to jackhammer the concrete to replace the rails when they wear out?
Just a small 6" high section that forms the flangeway.
Most likely. Once I finish fixing my PC, I'll install my camera software and Photoshop, and get the pics up.
-Hank
heypaul, my guess is those security agents are there to provide security to the T/O only and NOT to the public. My assumption on this is due to the fact that all the guards we've encountered ALWAYS post themselves in a seat behind the operator's cab. I have yet to find one at any other point on the cars.
How's my detective work so far?
Doug aka BMTman
The Hudson Mall stinks. I went there the other day to check it out and all they have is a Marshalls, Staples, Toys R Us, R&S Strauss, Old Navy and Movie Theater. It was not worth the walk and the endangerment of my life as I had to cross some highway/avenue wih big trucks.
I spoke with one of the security guards and he said his job ws not to check tickets, but to protect the driver. I asked him if he was also supposed to protect the passengers, and he said no.
Daniel
Woooa! Daniel, I hadn't read this post but I DID do a good guess on the role of the HBLR guards.
Thanks for confirming!
Doug aka BMTman
What do those guards do?
All they seem to do is sit in the rear cab and stare out the windshield.
Why do the operators need protection?
Also, why does it seem that there is always a operator change at the facility? Every train seems to stop there.
Glad I caught up with everyone at Liberty after just missing a train at Exchange Place. The weather certainly was a gift, since the line features many great waterfront views. It was very amusing to see so many people riding the light rail strictly for curiosity and sightseeing, not to mention many people posted along the rights-of-way with camcorders.
While the West Side branch may be more interesting from a rail historian's point of view ('1913' stenciled into the embankements) and from an aesthic angle (the bust of MLK at said station; the avant-garde looking benches), the Bayonne branch gave a much faster, more scenic ride. Loved how the right-of-way weaved itself through the Exit 14A ramps! The West Side terminal looked to be a rather seedy section of town. The 34th Street terminal is one long block from a busy commercial strip on Avenue E.
It looks like the Jersey City waterfront is really becoming a boom area. The only other time I was at Exchange Place, on a Saturday in October 1993, there were just the deserted office buildings. Now it looks like PEOPLE are starting to move in. The housing and street construction along Essex Street are testament to that. Obviously, the area is very attractive for its proximity to the World Trade and Financial Center complexes. Once the line reaches Hoboken, PATH access to Midtown will be available as well.
Funny how the female security guard appeared to let us slide after deducing we were railfans. It's a good thing, too, because I forgot to validate the ticket I bought at West Side until we got back to Exchange. One, however, did 'get me' on a later inbound trip after Liberty.
I may ride it one evening after dark (to and from Bayonne) just to get a view of the downtown skyline and the statue.
Great to see everyone who came.
There is already PATH access to Midtown, at Exchange Place. Take the Hoboken train one stop to Newport/Pavonia (f/k/a Erie) and change trains on the same platform for the 33rd St. train. Don't want to change trains? OK, then you'll have to wait 'till the HBLR reaches Newport Mall, where you can can the 33rd St. train. Certainly no need to wait for the connection at Hoboken.
05/06/2000
I believe the area where the housing boom is taking place is Paulus Hook?? Anyway, the dummies who protested the advent of HBLR on opening day (4/15) will change their tune when they discover that their property values will sky rocket and they will be the first to cash in on light rail fever!
Bill Newkirk
I was riding the number2 train from 149th street to 241 street, i noticed that there are different color lights at the top of the tunnel the colors were blue and orange, i noticed this after the train left 149th street and third avenue station.What do these colors mean and why are they there?
The blue lights in the tunnel mark the locations of emergency call boxes. These are like phones that have a direct link to the transit police. The orange ones are probably construction lamps.
Daniel
I think he's talking about that funny signal at the east end of the 149th St-3rd Avenue station. It's three orange lights with a plate with the number "23" on it I think. It's on the northbound tracks.
Wayne
That would be a slow-speed restriction
.........question for any subtalker who has the answer to this .......
This fall I am launching a new operation called ""PROJECT - REDBIRD""
where i will re-vidieotape the 2,4,5,6,7 lines day and night on 5 hour format 8mm vidieotape
for each line minimum ! and some other lines as well i hope ..........
I looked up a BEST WESTERN hotel in flushing new york says its near the flushing mall
is it near the number # 7 line or can i walk to any nearby subway line ??
it would be great to find out this information if anyone has it ( thank you ) salaamallah.....
.........can I ask this question again ..... there is this best western hotel in flushing new york
says it is near a subway station........ hope for some good news on that !!!!
Now is it walking distance from any subway station hopefully the # 7 my favorite !!
they say they are on the webpage but i would like another opinion !!! ( thank you )
I saw that, apparently the site is lying. The hotel is not near the subway.
swung on and missed strike three !!!
I have stayed at that hotel and no it is not near the subway. You have to catch a Q58 (I think) bus to either Flushing Main Street (7 express into town)or the station or Elmhurst Avenue. Th a free bus to JFK.
Simon
Swindon UK
thank you sir ! may i ask you about how far .........aprox . how many blocks away from the nearest subway was
the best western hotel and or nearest terminal ..
last november i stayed at 40th and lexington streets ....the seton hotel walked about 8 blocks to the 42nd street
subway terminal so if the best western hotel in flushing is only 7 or 6 blocks away thats not to bad
i need the walk to help me to lose weight.....also any other subtalker who knows this info is fine with me !!
how were the rates at that hotel ? compared to elsewhere ?? ....... ( thank you ) ........
The Best Western is the Eden Park Hotel at 113-10 Corona Ave in Flushing They have a toll free number at 1800-521-0099 They have a free shuttle to LGA and JFK and most likely the subway. Call them
thank you they said they charge 139 one hundred dollars and thirty dollars per day
how is that for a good rate for two renting a single room ??
maybe some of you new york city experts out there could and maybe have information as to maybe 100 one hundred dollar a day hotels somewhere ??
if so thank you very much you all have been very helpful .......
Well, you could stay out in Jersey and ride NJT into the City each day - depending on where you stayed you could get a decent room for under $50/night for two people at that time of the year. (I did a quick check of the Motel 6 directory and the location in East Brunswick, NJ - a short drive from the train station - goes for $60-66/night depending on the day of the week. Down the Jersey Shore it gets cheaper.) Obviously the added fare for NJT makes it less of a savings than it seems at first, but it's still something to think about.
I don't know anything about NYC hotels but I suspect that there are decent places for less than $100/night in Manhattan. You just have to shop around. If you're willing to wait until the last minute you can probably find a bargain through priceline or some other such website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
mr anon e mouse i would be grateful to you if you could put me in a hotel walking distance to the new
new jersey light rail system especially at that rate you posted i will not have a car with me this september-october
any information on the hotels motels near the new jersey light rail system would be wonderful
i may be arriving on greyhound so any help is much big thank you .................salaaamallah
There is a days inn within 2 blocks of the PATH Journal Square station
.............another question i missed where the days inn was last time i stayed in jersey city on a street named
tonellie or something like that what city is the journal square located in and it would be great if it is two
blocks away form the path journal square station !!..
i tried to look this up on thier website if you could look up thier local and 1 800- number I was trying
to nail this down as i agreed with thier price but i did not see this hotel last time i was there.........
thank you if you can follow this up ..........
........question again does anyone have the address and phone number to this DAYS INN two bnlocks away
from the path train journal square station I did not see any hotels anywhere near the journal square station
but the parking was very high !! anyway if anyone knows a hotel near journal square and or walking distance
i can walk 4 to 5 blocks etc... then let me know thank you very much ....
........question again does anyone have the address and phone number to this DAYS INN two bnlocks away
from the path train journal square station I did not see any hotels anywhere near the journal square station
but the parking was very high !! anyway if anyone knows a hotel near journal square and or walking distance
i can walk 4 to 5 blocks etc... then let me know thank you very much .......
Salaam,
Not sure if this is the one you're looking for, but there's one at 2750 Tonnelle Ave, North Bergen, NJ 07047-2295, telephone (201) 348-3600.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Days Inn Central Res 1800-633-1414 If Not Days Inn-Try Comfort Inn -Choice Hotels 1800-4CHOICE. Journal Sq is in Jersey City
There are several hotels within walking distance of Pavonia/Newport PATH station.
Doubletree Club Suites (Washington Blvd) (closest to the PATH)
Quality Inn - 180 12th St. (the Holland Tunnel Approach Road)
Holland Motor Inn (also on 12th St)
There's actually a few more than that I'm pretty sure around the tunnel. Next time I'm over there I'll pay more attention to the names.
Most hotel chains have 800 numbers to handle reservations/inquiries so if you know there's a Days Inn, call their 800 number and ask about it.
thank you very much webmaster Mr. David Pirmann..........!!!
I am trying to target about $ 100 a day hopefully with either a rail connection or a PATH onnection which was
very difficult to find last time i stayed on tonnelle street this time I will be without my car....
a single room with a single double size bed with some kind of coin laundy nearby walking distance...
4 to 5 blocks away from new jersey light rail or PATH if possible is fine and hopefully no higher than $ 100.oo daily
i want to shoot for one week straight the last of REDBIRDS 2 4 5 6 7 ......in 5 hour 8 mm formats & others etc....!!
i am saving for this all year and will shoot this fall october-november with the beautiful fall colors !
thanks to anyone who can help with information.........all good east coast subtalkers .......!! ( thank you ) salaamallah
And the best part of it Brighton Beach Bob is that you are very close to Shea Stadium, one stop away, where you can watch the magnificent Mets on their way to the World Series.
I found the Howard Johnson at Secaucus to be resonable. The bus stop is right outside the Hotel and buses are every few minutes to the Port Authority. The rate was around $75.00 per night for a large double room. There is also an outside pool. I think taxes are a little cheaper in NJ.
Have a good trip
Simon
Swindon UK
......i would like to thank you for that wonderful information you sent unfortunately the howard johnson
will be shut down for rebuilding until maybe november and maybe too late for booking for rooms
maybe you saw other hotels in secaucs new jersey wish me well and a 100% thank you !!!
how are things in the U.K. ???
Things in the UK are fine. You must pay us a visit some time and ride the Underground. The air fares are still quite cheap but are due to go up soon. Grab em while you can.
Simon
Swindon UK
It is quite a walk to either the Queens Blvd or the Flushing line. I highly recommend contacting the hotel and see if the shuttle service could drop you off at the subway.
The official Saturday SubTalk chat (there's also a Wednesday chat) begins in 4 minutes. You can come on in now.
chat.cjb.net/metrocard
OR
irc.cjb.net:6667
#metrocard
It's 8:05, do you know where the chatters are?
............. am i invited ??
Nobody is invited, this is an open room, anyone can come.
i got the page now how do you post in it ???
there's a line on the bottom
i dont mean to be difficult .........i found that but when i tried to post well......... you saw what happened !!
i am doing something wrong and i want to correct it !! ( thank you ) ........
You did find your way
I suggest you take the advice in another post and get mIRC.
can a i mac handle this ??? i do not own a pc !!
There are good clients for the Mac too, a Mac user here can tell you of one.
just have to learn how to do it even a 50 year old like me !!
i got the page now how do you post in it ???..
Wow, I'm Impressed!!!
A whole thread between Pigs and Salaam without one insult!! Was there a cease fire that I didn't know about? Whoever arranged that should get a permanent job at the UN!!! Better than Henry Kissinger. Keep up the good work guys, have a beer and a cold shower on me.
yea who owns what are you waiting for chat ??
Nobody "owns" it.
Download an IRC client at www.mirc.com. Connect to server irc.cjb.net, port 6667 and open room #metrocard. This is the chatroom.
I suggest that EVERYONE do this. The java client is highly crappy.
im telling you man !!! couldnt word process anything ( thanks )................
Nobody owns it but I did found it, I think I deserve some credit.
Metrocard.cjb.net
chat.cjb.net/metrocard
Has anyone noticed that astounding Pennsylvania Railroad Tunnels "sub-station" sitting on the western side of Route 1&9, Tonnele Avenue? It is an awesome brick Romanesque Revival structure, apparently abandoned, and it seems to guard the gorgeous, breathtaking limestone entrance to the PRR Tunnels (an entrance that puts the Art Deco Lincoln Tunnel entrance to shame!). Right behind this sub-station is hallowed ground--the ruins of the mighty Penn Station. However, recent urban developent is wiping these ruins out; only a few colossal pillars remain. What was once a swampy dump is suddenly prime real estate!
Isn't there a real substation right outside of tunnles. Like a 30's one for the AC electrifacation. Was this old substation for AC-DC conversion? That entrance is pretty cool. I can see it out the inverse railfan window on my trips home. BTW do you know about the tunnle vent shaft and substation next to the Lincoln Tunnel Toll Plaza. Its located within the loop created by route 3 as it descends to the tunnel.
When exactly did PATH institute the *ahem* normal service (as opposed to: 33rd St via Hoboken...) on weekends on the Uptown line? Just wondering....Is there a longer wait for a thru train at Journal Sq, than the old wait for the old service? Or did they actually put more trains on?