I have just read the Transit Authority's RTO Employees Newsletter- "Running Times". There is extensive coverage about the new R142's. All cars are expected to be in full passanger service by the end of 2001. The number 7 line will be receiving R62A cars according to TA Vice President Joseph Hoffman. These cars will be coming from the Number 6 Line. The article describes the many features of the R142's and states that these cars are expected to remain in service for 40 years.They are also expected to travel 100,000 miles between mechanical failures. The cars have 2 air conditioning systems so that if one fails, the other will remain operational. They also have increased soundproofing, and an air bag suspension system for a quieter and smoother ride. The R143's for the IND and BMT division are expected to arrive in the beginning of 2001, the article states.
Joseph Hoffman is the Subway Division Senior Vice President. He has the final word on car assignments, design, and maintenance of the fleet. One thing, I wonder. Will there be enough R62A's for the number 7 line? There will be 10 cars, not 11 since these are married pairs.
Only time will tell if this will work out. I guess we will see when this plan takes effect at the end of the year.
what happens to the #6 line then ?? and where do the WF33-36 cars go ??
so we have to see until the end of the year ?? I was told the redbirds would ride last on the # 7 !!!!
by many tranist workers..etc.... oh well this story does seem to change with every day !!!!
lots of luck expecting the 142s to remain in service the way the long lived - WF-33-36s did !!
however i would belleve this with a r 62 !!!! dont count on these computer controlled air conditioning cars
to flawelessly perform for 40 years straight with too many complex systems to go wrong !!!
I will never forget how in atlanta georgia with a brand new system and brand new trains how often the
on board computers failed ( including climate controls ) many of them had to be bypassed and overidden !!!frozen doors etc..
all anyone can do is hope any new junk train can last for at least 10 years !! even here in los angeles
the rolling stock is showing aging and decay and this is southern california !!
I'd bet you twenty dollars that if I offered you a cab ride in one of those R142's to videotape the ride, you would take it. All cars, even the R26s had "teething problems" when they were new. The R10s had truck problems when new. As well as the R46, which is probably the better of the fleet reliability wise.It happened with Septa, BArt and will enevitably happen with the TA again. Tell us something we DON"T know.
you would have to allow me to shoot a vidieo from the inside of the transverse cab !! center railfan window etc...
i probably would like the clear unscratched up glass and new glass view from the center window !!
but how would the new car handle the same old beat up tracks smoother ???? we will see !!!!
TREVOR LOGAN says this fall he could put me inside so i could shoot the first railfan vidieo with
the new R -142s so i want you to know i would really enjoy that !! the new unscratched up glass would make
a railfan vidieo look like an old r 21-22- split window clear no glass view !! ( look foward to shooting inside the cab) !!
I had posted this info about one month ago. Nothing has changed since
R62A cars can be configured into 11 car trains, with one single and 2 5 car sets making up a train. I wonder where the extra R62A cars will be coming from, as their aren't enough on the 6 line to completely equip the 7 line.
They will probably come from the 3 Line. They run in single cars and 5-Car sets.
They can also be confgured into 6 car sets.
Darn it! I promised all my friends (non-railfan) that there would be nice new cars (142s) on the 7 line in a few years. Well, most of those friends haven't even been on the Manhattan IRT so it will be new to them.
They have only 250 R62A on the #6 line (#1651-1900); don't think that's enough to field a full fleet on the #7 - they need something like 300 cars not counting spares.
Wayne
man!!! stop making sense !!!.................
Most likely, the 7 will wind up with a mix, just as the 6 has now.
-Hank
Hopefully the mix will be of R-142s and R-62s.
NO REDBIRDS ON THE 7!!!!
dont hold your breath !
I don't know the car count for each line. Also in a few years when all is said and done and the 325 additional cars are received for the IRT to run increased service and all the redbirds are gone, then the puzzle as to where the R62 and 62A's be assigned will be solved. I did read the employee newsletter. I heard Reuter say at one time he wants all Lex. trains be R142's. And of course Mosholu Yd. does not have enough R62's to completely outfit the #4 line completely right now. I like the #7 getting R62A's as these cars have traditional, proven technology. Run the unlinked R62A in the middle of the train with the conductor so alternate operating positions are availiable if needed. I can envision this if I can approximate the car service requirements accurately: #1 gets all R62's (and 62A's if additional cars are needed; #2, 4, 5, & 6 would be R142's; #3, 7 & shuttle get R62A's.
1886-1890 and 1896-1900 are on the 3 line
BM34x
Yeah, right!
Again, they're saying they're going to assign R62A's to the 7 train. How many times have they said that before and never did it? The 7 is not getting R62A's. It's not going to happen. There's been speculation on this board off and on about R62A's going from the 6 to the 7 for so long. I've got to see it to believe it.
They will start to migrate over from the 6 to the 7 a train at a time beginning in June (at the earliest) when the R-142s successfully complete their qualification testing and regular deliveries begin.
IF they have proven themself successful by that time ??
That's what I meant by passing the qualification test.
We shall see . . .
You know what is next for the No7 line - OPTO. All the signs are there. Full width cabs, self contained line. We've seen it all before.
Simon
Swindon UK
that would be dangerous!! ..( like the 142s)...!..how are you going ot operate OPTO on the flushing #7 safely??
The same way as most other countries run their systems. Where there is a will there is a way. OPTO is as I understand at already in use on the G line late at night.
Simon
Swindon UK
If (when) the Number 7 line goes OPTO, what will happen to the Conductors??
Will they be offered train operator/Motor(wo)man positions as a promotion, or re-deployed to other roles within the TA.
Regards
Rob :^)
The #7 line can not go OPTO! You cannot run eleven car trains with only the motorman. on a foggy night or bright day he probably couldn't see the red lights on the last four cars to see if someone's stuck in the doors. The G has opto at night because it only runs four car trains! And anyway, railfans will protest the addition of transverse cab cars on the line with one of the best views in the city and demand that the TA convert them back to half-length cab cars (the TA of course won't, but there will still be protesting, at least on this board).
With R62A cars, the 7 can indeed go OPTO at night, with 5 car trains.
AS much as I am not in favour of OPTO it is enevitable. Closed circuit TV will ensure that long trains do not pose safety problems, trains will run as 10 car with perhaps extra trains being run. Trains themselves may even be fitted with CCTV. I am sure that it will happen and the introduction of the R62a's with full width cabs is the starter
i have seen vidieo cameras on doors in the back etc........a lot more to maintain !!....... like this on buses what happens when the vidieo fails ?? less trains ??
solution ; RE-HIRE CONDUCTOR.s.....!
What happens when a conductor calls in sick? You get a new guy in.
What happens when the camera breaks? You install a new one.
I didn't know the 7 had shorter trains at night.
i didnt either when i was there at night last november 1999 and march 2000 !!......
Me too, I thought they ran 11 cars 24/7........I just don't think OPTO will happen at all once the R62A are re-assigned there. The ridership is just too heavy. Service is too frequent. That one man would have a long walk if a door hangs up in the last car, he/she also has a lot of cars to check in case of a BIE due to a pulled energency cord, or a lot of cabs to check if some low life breaks into a cab and starts to make unauthorized announcements/obscenities on the PA system. Or maybe y'all want OPTO and just put TSS's at every other station! More chiefs than indians?
One more thing. Don't they run trains on the #7 90 seconds apart during the rush? And every second counts. Because of OPTO, there is a delay of several seconds at every station as the T/O has to take a full service brake, move to the door position, insert the key and open/close doors. Then another several seconds as he gets back into the seat and releases the brakes. Those extra seconds will add up to minutes and fewer trains would have to run due to increased running time even if it is 2 minutes.
The way to make OPTO more effective is to have flat screen video monitors in the cab.
Nobody is trying to justify using OPTO on the 7 during the rush hours. However, nightime OPTO service is feasible, and will probably be instituted when the R62's get x-fered to the Flushing line.
i could not see this at stations like 5th avenue...and sone other station... with ..11 car trains??.....!!!
Not with 11 cars, but with a single 5 car unit, like other OPTO trains.
But then you've got the ballgames. You most certainly cannot run 5-car trains game days. They run 10-cars in July and August when they pull the R33s from the trains. Baseball loads are almost always SRO. Afte rgames, they generally have 2 platform conductors at the station, and they still can't get the trains out of there on time. I don't think Opto will work on the 7 any time of day, until the line is semi-automated. The only way it will work is if the doors open automatically and the trains start themselves, similar to WMATA.
-Hank
Don't worry this year. You won't need 10 or 11 cars for a last place team. But there will be S.R.O. on the Jerome Av Line, especially at 161 & River. You'll need 20 cars on that line!!!
Last place team? Does the 7 stop at Turner field?
I hear the Expos aren't too thrilled with the prospect of (off his) Rocker being traded to them.
The Mets in last place? Puh-leeeaze!! This isn't the late 70s or 1993.
Yes, game days would require full length train service. But non-game nights, OPTO would work fine.
Moving to the door position is really a moot point. All but 4 platforms on this line are on the same side of the train as the motorman's position. Additionally, the motorman need only be looking out when closing the doors. The doors could be opened from the motorman's regular position. But again, The ridership on the 7 is just too heavy for the line to go OPTO at any hour unless it's semi-automated.
-Hank
with the volume on the 7 line even at 3 am opto would never work give me a break!
Yeah it would. 3 AM, the trains are half empty.
I would think the same as happened in London. There must be a lot of conductors.
Simon
on the g?? with less cars and late at night !! to me i think it is dangerous as a woman in atlanta was dragged almost dead
caught in a subway door at the back of the train because of OPTO one person one operator !!!!!! you need a conductor !!
just because some transit systems like CHICAGO etc... are so #@**^*# dammed cheap to hire and pay
a conductor which has proven to be safe !.... OPTO is not safe at all !!
There have been numerous dragging incidents in New York, nearly all of which were on TPTO (two person) trains.
Not nearly all, ALL. If there were such an incident on an OPTO train, you bet your ass they would have passed a law up in Albany blocking progress forever. There was a rape that occured on the last car of an OPTO G train, and the politicians jumped all over it as 'Why OPTO should be stopped.' Of course, it was pointed out numerous times in the press by both reporters and TA employees that unless the train had a 10-man crew, it would still have occured. With no other passengers in the last car, and with no crewman EVER in a position in the last car, it was said it was an occurance that would occur on any train in the system away from rush hour.
-Hank
Just goes to show you, an anecdote beats a fact every time.
Thank you for your support.
i know that draging passenger accidents and deaths can and do happen even with conductors and motormen
working together but at least every safety effort should be made ( including not making the motorman do everything 0
such as ONE PERSON ONE OPERATOR- plus- STATION ANNOUNCEMENTS......
it does interest me that this trememdous load be placed on you chicagomotorman and IT AINT FAIR TO YOU !!
Thank you. I am very disaappointed the railfans of Chicago didn't come to me and my co-workers aid.
Unfortunatly, transit management does not pay attention to railfans. The industry is beginning to learn that someone who has an interest other than a paycheck may make a more motivated employee. However, work in the industry (paid or unpaid) and you begin to have a sightly different view of what we call "foamers".
Like I said in another post, the verbiage about OPTO sounds suspiciously like what was said 80 years ago as the streetcar industry converted from two-man to one-man.
thank you very much chicagomotorman your official posts set the truth solid in steel and concrete !!
the rest of the threads missed the boat on this subject ( thank you )..!
'Official Posts'? PROVE that he's an actual Chicago motorman. I could call myself 'President of the USA'. Just because I look the part, doesn't mean I can play the part.
Again, READ CAREFULLY! Nothing EVER posted here is official, since one can very rarely prove the true idnetities of the posters.
-Hank
I see ....only YOUR posts are official.........I stand corrected !! ......( thank you ) .....
You know, Salaamallah, every time I start to regret calling you to task for your inane logic, you seem to take a quantum leap further away from reality. I agree with Hank. Other than the fact that Chicagomotorman seems to have an IQ on par with yours, what makes his post 'Official'? As the governor of Chicago, I like to know, Officially?
Steve, he's got PEBCAK (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair) so no rational post or position ever gets through. If you've read enough, you know exactly what I mean.
Door operation happens when the train is stopped, which means that the operator is doing nothing. There is little increase in simultaneous responsibilty.
In cities with OPTO like, say, Atlanta, the train operator doesn't really operate the train, since it is automated. So all the T/O is doing is making station announcements and opening the doors, just exactly like what a conductor does. Why have two people on a train when one will just sit up front staring out the window?
remember when ( in atlanta ) and because there was no conductor passengers had to pull the EMERGENCY CORD !!
and that poor woman was DRAGGED in a MARTA TRAIN door jam 200 feet ???.....!!
That's happened more times than I can count in NYC, WITH a conductor. Your arguement is completely moot.
-Hank
i know that draging passenger accidents and deaths can and do happen even with conductors and motormen
working together but at least every safety effort should be made ( including not making the motorman do everything 0
such as ONE PERSON ONE OPERATOR- plus- STATION ANNOUNCEMENTS......
it does interest me that this trememdous load be placed on you chicagomotorman and IT AINT FAIR TO YOU !!
Thank you. I am very disaappointed the railfans of Chicago didn't come to me and my co-workers aid.
Unfortunatly, transit management does not pay attention to railfans. The industry is beginning to learn that someone who has an interest other than a paycheck may make a more motivated employee. However, work in the industry (paid or unpaid) and you begin to have a sightly different view of what we call "foamers".
Like I said in another post, the verbiage about OPTO sounds suspiciously like what was said 80 years ago as the streetcar industry converted from two-man to one-man.
thank you very much chicagomotorman your official posts set the truth solid in steel and concrete !!
the rest of the threads missed the boat on this subject ( thank you )..!
'Official Posts'? PROVE that he's an actual Chicago motorman. I could call myself 'President of the USA'. Just because I look the part, doesn't mean I can play the part.
Again, READ CAREFULLY! Nothing EVER posted here is official, since one can very rarely prove the true idnetities of the posters.
-Hank
I see ....only YOUR posts are official.........I stand corrected !! ......( thank you ) .....
You know, Salaamallah, every time I start to regret calling you to task for your inane logic, you seem to take a quantum leap further away from reality. I agree with Hank. Other than the fact that Chicagomotorman seems to have an IQ on par with yours, what makes his post 'Official'? As the governor of Chicago, I like to know, Officially?
Steve, he's got PEBCAK (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair) so no rational post or position ever gets through. If you've read enough, you know exactly what I mean.
Door operation happens when the train is stopped, which means that the operator is doing nothing. There is little increase in simultaneous responsibilty.
In cities with OPTO like, say, Atlanta, the train operator doesn't really operate the train, since it is automated. So all the T/O is doing is making station announcements and opening the doors, just exactly like what a conductor does. Why have two people on a train when one will just sit up front staring out the window?
remember when ( in atlanta ) and because there was no conductor passengers had to pull the EMERGENCY CORD !!
and that poor woman was DRAGGED in a MARTA TRAIN door jam 200 feet ???.....!!
That's happened more times than I can count in NYC, WITH a conductor. Your arguement is completely moot.
-Hank
CCTv systems give the train operator a clearer view then a conductor looking down the tracks. The best implimentation of this would be in cab flat screen monitors or heads up displays so that the TO does not have to look outside the car at all.
if the cctv breaks down or fails then go back to a conductor ???
Replace the broken equipment.
Simple answer. Move the platform observation monitors to the operator's position. For those stations that don't have them, install them.
The problem with OPTO on the Flushing is the passenger load factor:basically the Flushing runs at rush or near-rush capacity almost all day; whereas the G is very,very low capacity,even during the rush.....
Plus the Flushing Line is 11-car trains pretty much 24/7, except in the summer when some of the R-33WFs are pulled. Even if they don't bring any R-62 singles over to the 7, you'd still be talking about a 10-car, 512-foot train compared with the 300-foot, six-car G trains that run OTPO. Two-hunndred-plus feet is a big difference when looking out the front of a train.
5 car trains during the nightime hours would be adequate for late night Flushing service (except during late running games at Shea Stadium). So I'd expect OPTO to show up on the Flushing line as soon as enough R62A cars have been transferred there.
RIGHT !!!......( thank you sir )....stop making sense...!!
I was in Palm Springs, CA all of the past week so I was unable to comment until now. My question is what will the 6 and other IRT lines get?
When the R26-29 and R33-36 retire will they do a fantrip on all IRT lines.
I'm sure somebody will. I'm ready for an R33 trip totally equipped with #7 line single cars.
Make sure that Pigs is invited to this fantrip this way we can make sure he has a fantrip seat right under a noisy fan.
Wayne
And of course, the fantrip would have to be in July or August.
The whole train would have broken fans that just made an annoying screech
LOL
And hope it's not too hot. We don't want deja vu all over again (that's Yogi's line, not mine) as it occurred on Sept. 11, 1973. I won't go any further.
When R these Fan Trips?
please respond.
thank you
Hmmm... how appropriate for a fantrip :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah. You'll never where a single unit might end up after the fantrip. Remember 6688 and the fantrip in 87?
RIM SHOT!
-Stef
And don't tell Pigs that a trip is being run with all singles. It's his worst nightmare.......
-Stef
That's OK, pork gives me nightmares too... and I'm told, by those who eat it, that bacon is best when it's fried to a crisp...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I suspect (and hope) that the members of the ERA would charter a few "Farewell to the Redbirds" fantrips ....
--Mark
late last night i received word of a last minute change in scheduling for this month's transit transit show... it was originally scheduled to highlight the successful testing of the r-142's, but yesterday's unfortunate event in the bronx resulted in a sudden change of shows... a couple of days after the excellent article in the daily news about me, i was approached by the producers of transit transit to appear in a full half hour show featuring well adjusted railfans... they filmed several hours of me in my r-9 motorman's cab as well as sitting in front of my television set and addressing the world on my opinions on transit via webtv... the taping went perfectly, except for a brief interlude when the two hosts of the segment got into a vicious verbal and pie fight over some personal matters that had long been brewing between them... to me that was the best part of the show...
word got out that they were going to do a heypaul half hour special, and they began to receive nasty letters suggesting that i had steamed over my towline, thrown down a yellow dye marker, and had conducted a search for a key to the food locker that did not exist... all these nasty rumors from a bunch of disloyal officers caused them to shelve the episode...
but events yesterday while testing the r-142's made it imperative to substitute another show for the one that they had done on the new equipment... as a result, make sure you tune in and tape for posterity this month's transit transit show and remember to have a
HAPPY APRIL FOOL'S DAY
I think New York City should forget about the old & rotting elevated lines & replace them with new monorail lines. This New York City , hence the "New" in New York.
Ah, back to the future, when the Els and the subways were separate and incompatible.
Would the capacity on a 2 track monorail be anywhere near the capacity on a 2 track el?
No big difference, but where would the trains go? The lines can be replaced with new concrete els.
Miami's Rappid transit all elevated because of the high water table looks like a monorail because of the the concrete towers and track bed. Precast concrete can be very creative.
A Cantalevered Concrete L on each side of 2nd Ave would be cool. Good looking without interupting the sacred traffic that dosen't move very well anyway.
Or maybe a center running 2 track system would work. Dare to dream
A two track L would not look muck different that a people mover track.
Would the capacity on a 2 track monorail be anywhere near the capacity on a 2 track el?
Assuming a loading of 190 passengers per car on an 10 car train, with trains operating on three minute headways, a two track el can carry 38,000 persons per hour per direction (pphpd). The only the heavy-transport class monorail I could find pphpd figures for was Urbanaut; it's designer claims a maximum pphdd of 40,000 persons.
CH.
The MONORAIL SOCIETY has an interesting website, if you would like to delve deeeper. www.monorails.org.
Some of the Japanese monorails definitely approach heavy rail in terms of capacity.
The MONORAIL SOCIETY has an interesting website, if you would like to delve deeeper. www.monorails.org.
Been there, done that. :-) http://faculty.washington.edu/~jbs/itrans/ is another useful reference.
Some of the Japanese monorails definitely approach heavy rail in terms of capacity.
Unfortunately, most of the high-capacity Japanese monorails are supported (e.g. Alweg-type) rather than suspended (e.g. Safege-type). I have my doubts that Alweg-descended monorails could survive a New York winter without incurring huge bills for end-to-end guideway heating. For New York, a narrow-beam suspended monorail, like Aerorail, would be a better idea, as such designs are far less vulnerable to winter conditions than their supported counterparts.
CH.
With the (not so unexpected) departure of Tom Prendeghast from the LIRR, one has to ask, what plans does the MTA Board have. TP's departure could be an indication that the MTA has decided to make some internal organizational structure changes. Changes that would have the LIRR presidency degraded by another level of MTA beaurocracy. One rumor has it that there will be a new office created in the MTA, "Pesident of MTA Commuter Railroads". This makes some sense as LIRR and Metro-North trains will both use Grand Central Station and Metro-North can now use Penn Station. It's long been rumored that the LIRR is exploring "One-seat commuting" from points on Long Island to Poukeepsie or even Albany. Therefore, a commuter railroad Czar makes some sense as the old borders fade. The two questions then become, WHO? WHEN?
One name mentioned is Senior VP Joe Hofmann. This could explain TPs sudden departure (as LIRR head) since he might not want to be subbordinate to his former subbordinate (he was Senior VP when JH was Chief Mechanical Officer). The other rumor is that the head of MNRR would move over to the LIRR and the MNRR position would be assumed by (MAL).
Of course, rumors at the TA are a way of life. But considering the number of the old guard at Jay Street who have opted to stick around for a while longer (rather than retire), One would have to think that they believe that there just may be some movement at the top very soon.
Who's MAL?
I'd hope for the BLEs sake that Hoffman does not get the position. He would be the type to challenge the LIRR's FRA status on the grounds they don't do freight. The MTA is desperate to get rid of the governing body the way they did with SIRTOA.
However, the LIRR will never get rid of the FRA status, as it connects with the national rail system at many places. Same problem with PATH.
SIR was able to not put up with FRA since right now it's isolated from the rest of the US rail system. IF the connections are ever put back, the FRA comes back with it.
Never is a very long time and FRA regulations can be changed or even footnoted to accommodate an exception.
As to the FRA, we've been living with a "kinder, gentler FRA" during the last 8 years. Depending on the inhabitant of the Executive Mansion in 2001, we may be seeing a difference. I keep a file cabinet of records of BSM's Transportation Department updated, partly in fear of a possible FRA oversight of the streetcar museums. We already have a streetcar museum that has FRA oversight. The FRA claims jursidiction over the Fort Collins Municipal Railway because FMCR (A 503C corporation) has 3 grade crossings on their line - which is not connected to the national rail system. It's a recreation of a streetcar line.
I talk to the steam railroad guys. The constant dealing with the FRA takes a lot of the fun out of it.
Talk to your counterparts at PATH. I'm sure they'd love to make it go away. I suspect they secretly envy NYCT.
[Talk to your counterparts at PATH. I'm sure they'd love to make it go away. I suspect they secretly envy NYCT.]
As I understand it, they tried, eliminating most of the connections as possible to the RR sytem. But it's not that easy to get rid of creepy bureaucrats! The FRA retained authorization because the PATH trains run *next to* the RR tracks.
Its weird that I have never seen 7750-7859, 8570-8685, 8686-8803 and 8806- 9305 SERIES on the #7 line. Well I have never seen World's Fair version on the #5 line or the #2 line Ive seen only on the World's Fair version on the #4 and #6 lines once in a while.
Worlds fair cars were originally purchased for the #7 line. Surplus went to the #6 line. It is so difficult to get cars from the rest of the IRT to the #7 line that they have not seen anything but Worlds Fair cars for over 30 years. When the 7 has to get new cars, the only way I can imagine the TA getting them to the seven would be to run them up to Concorse yd. on the 4, then running them down the D to DeKalb, then back north on the N to Queensboro Plaza.
When the handful of R-36 WF cars were first moved to the mainline, they spent their time on the No. 1 line. I don't think they made their way over to the Lex until the mid-1980s.
Thanks. I wasn't around before the 1980s so I figured they were always on the 6.
In 1978, I saw several R36 W.F. cars on the #4 near 170th Street.
The city of San Francisco and his honor the honorable WILLIE BROWN and the SAN FRANCISCO GIANTS ...
somehow swindeled the city of san francisco residents into CORPORATE WELFARE and so parts of downtown were
cleared away and the poor residents of San Francisco were forced out of thier residences into homelessness to
build this new baseball stadium !! ( according to the accounts of KGO 810 am radio in that city !!!
Now the plot thickens IF you drive your automobile pick up truck and or van ALMOST NO PARKING @might as well be none !
anyway the idea is that the good people of San Francisco would walk ride a bike charter vans and buses and...........................
..........here it goes folks................. RAIL-TRANSPORTATION...!!..... ( easy-er said than done !! ) .......... oh well
AND thats where the NIGHTMARE began !!!
AS I was monotoring KGO and KCBS radio station(s) as thier signals drift down to the los angeles county areas
at night the horror undfolds....
BART performed the best in getting the GIANTS baseball fans both in and out but could have left a lot to be
desired !! AND there were not enough trains to servive wall to wall fans pouring out of GIANTS STADIUM !!!
however it was reported on KGO radio that this was the best of the PUBLIC TRANSIT SYSTEMS IN SAN FRANCISCO !!
the next WORSE was the MUNI-BUS-and SAM TRAN- and-AC TRANSIT- etc the gridlock was a nightmare !!
But what in the hell did you expect putting San Franciscos GIANT STADIUM in the middle of downtown ?? RIGHT !!!!
i do not know if any CABLE CARS were in use around this area !!! ...............( no report here !! )..........
THE MUNI RAIL was reported to be a DISASTER !! you name it it whent wrong call it and it happened !!!!!!
EVERYBODY WAS TOTALLY MAD !!!! callers to the talk radio there flooded the station with complaints about
how trains passsed packed stations up discharging passengers out then they are stranded and no pick ups !!
MUNI TRAINS doing express runs and NO SERVICE being done !! ( reminds me of atlanta when the braves game ends )
and so all night long every possible nightmare happened !!!...... I suppose eventually they all got home !!!!!
FINALLY a rail system similar to METROLINK in southern california STRANDED thier passengers STUCK DEAD
while in service STALLED DEAD TRAINS....... packed with GIANTS baseball fans trying to get home in the
RURAL and SUB-BURBS type areas !! STRANDED & stuck dead on a .rail !!!!!!.....WOW !!!!!!!!
the new ballpark i am told is beautiful to see check out thier website !!
FINALLY this reminds me how the lost angeles BLUE LINE is not handled to the events at the STAPLES CENTER !!
thank you for reading please excuse my errors !!
It would have been easier if you used normal punctuation and didn't capitalize every other word.
PacBell park is actually the ONLY one of the new stadiums that has been built with very little in the way of public subsidy. Bay Area voters repeatedly rejected tax plans and bond plans to build the new stadium.
The new stadium has extremely limited parking, and it's the only stadium anyone is aware of the actually has a ferry terminal. Fans will be expected to use mass transit too and from the game, which the planners believe won't be too much of a problem, except for weekday afternoon games. Weekend games should have enough on-street parking available, but weekdays it is expected that most of the people attending games at the new park will have already arrived in the city, and thus are parked elsewhere or used mass transit to get there. There will be special schedules and addtional service on the bus, rail, LRV, and BART lines that serve the station area, additional cars will be added to trains, and additional service will aslo be added. This is the only one of the current crop of new stadiums that was planned from the begining to be a real downtown park, and will make use of many existing facilities. There are bound to be teething problems while they fine-tune things in the early part of the season, but by the third week of home games, everything is expected to be running smoothly. The transportation support would be expected of any major stadium,because if the fans can't get to the games, why would the team stay?
-Hank
ok your only response was a
spell check and i was looking for responses from persons who
experenced this DISASTER !!!
mr hank?? were you there to tell us all on subtalk how ""everything is going to be allright ""
and if it is alright with you sir if you live in the BAY AREA of san francisco what and
how differently you would handle public transportation to GIANTS STADIUM which was built in the WORST POSSIBLE LOCATION of the city of san francisco ???
besides a spell check how would you remedy the problem of public transit to and from the GIANTS BASEBALL games ??? your proven solution to this problem will do just fine !!
I wait for your answer to this !!
Some people that I know in San Francisco were worried about cappacity problems. Not enough trains and is the new streetcar link finished? I know the ridership on the F Market/ Embarcadero is higher than expected causing equipment shortages there.
There are some things in the works to fix the problems. For the first few games, I think people expected that there would be some bugs.
If you are a transit fan help look for solutions, not just find fault.
what did THE BAY AREA TRANSIT etc.. tell anyone what they were going to do to ??? TRANSIT DISASTER IN SAN FRANCISCO !!
to speculate and hit and miss on this is not gong to solve the problem as to what to do and what was thier plans etc...
about public tranist to and from sell out GIANTS STADIUM EVENTS !!! which was a total failure !!! .....
You see they KNEW what the problem was and is BEFORE the stadum was built !! and what they should have done right !!
I dont go for he BULL as to why this couldnt have been done right in the first place !!! like things are going to improve what ??
ESPECIALLY when all of the BAY AREA TRANSIT so called ""experts"" knew in advance !!! what in the hell were these fools doing ??
wait so they can get it right after the fact ????? hold your breath .......( I hope not too long ) !!!!!
another reason not to answer the census i did not !!!! THE MYTH OF PUBLIC TRANSIT etc....
The N Line terminates by the Stadium which is also a couple blocks or less from Cal-Train. The F Line is a Surface line and does not go near the stadium. If the trains are packed, Muni could devert trains of the JKLM to the stadium terminal.
Perhaps that'll even out once the Newark PCC's arrive although you know I will miss them terribly.
Wayne
Current service to/from the ballpark is LRV(Bredas not the older boeings). The platforms along the southern Embarcadero line (MMX) are all center/high level. thus not PCC usable. While I did not go to the game, I was watching cars/trains passing thru Embarcadero Station(Muni level) yesterday evening around 7 PM. There seemed to be adequate service running that direction. Muni at least made the effort. BART also added extra cars to regular runs. The real loser was CalTrain(the ex Southern Pacific SF-San Jose mainline suburban service). They blew it big time vastly under estimating ridership. Reports in the local press speak of crush loaded trains skipping platforms packed with waiting passengers.
If I remember correctly Muni still has some older PCCs in the Geneva Barn that can be rehabed for the F Line, also the F Line can use Museum Cars which they use on Summer Weekends/
response to last two posts : at least they could have tried to plan the horrific crowd overflow coming out of
GIANTS STADIUM in san francisco !! no efforts were made to do this !! A RAIL TRANSIT DISASTER !!!!
then why go to the new ballpark if the PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION in SAN FRANCISCO failed to serve the people !!
what i think will happen is that GIANTS BASEBALL FANS will stay away from thier new ballpark crammed right
into the middle of downtown in the worst posssible place !!!!
I don't know what part of my post you read, but I sure as hell didn't see a spell check. According to the SF Chronicle and KRON-TV, the only problems they had with the first exhibition game was with Caltrain, who appartly under-estimated what their passenger load would be. Overall, many parking-lot owners were not happy, as very few people drove to the park. Many fans consider the location excellent. I don't know where you got your information from, but the area where the ballpark was built was previously several dozen abandoned warehouses, and very few residents. No one is homeless due to the stadium construction.
As for the corporate welfare angle, you should stop smoking that stuff. PacBell park was paid for in full by the Giants, not the city.
-Hank
Hell, I'd take that S.F. deal in a minute here in NYC. And we could get it if we just stood fast. It's time to get off our knees for this stuff.
[Hell, I'd take that S.F. deal in a minute here in NYC. And we could get it if we just stood fast. It's time to get off our knees for this stuff.]
Don't hold your breath. NYC politician have to be the most cowardly bunch in the entire country. As I've pointed out before, just look at the way corporations can extort millions in tax breaks and other incentives by making ludicrous relocation threats. Sports teams can and will do the same.
the only reason the problem will take care of itself is because the attendance at GIANTS STADIUM
will fall off ( like at candelstick park ) the Giants baseball team ususlly is not one of the top winners type
here in los angeles and in anehiem the same low attendance when they are not winning !!!!!
THEN WITH LOWER RAIL & TRANSIT DEMAND .......( then transit to and from giants stadium will work ) ...!!!!!
san francisco to me reminds me of a little new york i do agree with you you would probably move there !!
especially if you visited san francisco !!!! or the BAY AREA !!!! Too bad CORPORATE WELFARE built thier stadium !
Corporate Welfare did not build the stadium. San Franciscans repeatedly voted down measures to publicly fund the stadium. It was built completely with private money.
corporate welfare built GIANTS STADIUM just like the RCA Doom and the GEORGIA doom the indy colts Doom
all supported by welfare corporate welfare some like in St Louis straight out the taxpayers DOLE robbing money
from MASS TRANSIT and transportation and highway and street(s) etc......while driving cross country i tuned into talk radio st louis ...
( by the way on talk radio in st louis that subject was being discussed ) ( also in San Francisco with WILLIE BROWN on KGO news talk 810.!! dont believe me ask bernie ward and ray taliferro and they will back me up with the truth about this new GIANTS STADIUM - WELFARE QUEEN !.......!!!
and how kickbacks money under he table cuts on mass transit except muni rail excluding salary hikes for transit operators there !!
And how corporate welfare was tried on Los Angeles except we here are "" hip to this CORPORATE -WELFARE- JIVE ...!!!
another reason why we lost the st louis rams !!! GOOD RIDDANCE we can watch them on TELEVISION.... BYE !! BYE
I feel for the poor victims of San Francisco especially the poor folks there who now have to pay out of thier pockets !!
It sems that like in SEATTLE and now in SAN DIEGO this scam is being used against the people !!
no wonder we refuse to co-operate with the census !! So that more Corporate Welfare can go to those who DONT NEED IT THE MOST !!
however when the seats empty and native san francisco residents who know mass transit is not working for
GIANTS STADIUM events and they cannot count on bart & muni to get it right they will stay away !!.
Well, living here in the Bay Area, i must disagree. Pac Bell Park was actually put in just the right place to encourage people to use mass transit. On opening day, the San Jose Mercury News fan a full page article (not an advert) about how driving to the park, and especially parking there, is nearly impossible and fans should take Caltrain or BART/MUNI. They're even offering special game-day fares. Pac Bell park isn't taking anything away from rapid transit, or public transit in general.
But that's just my opinion.
ian
were you in any way close to the ballpark area to see how the three rail transit systems worked or failed ??
also when ballgames only draw small crowds that should not be hard to service them right ??
i know what a nightmare it is around pasadenas rose bowl when we have events here !! ( for example )...
caltrain had the worst service of all muni second bart number three somewhat better buses no report !!
The problem with the Rose Bowl versus Pac Bell Stadium is obvious. You of all people know that transit in LA is a myth, right?
Hey Pigs: If Big Sal doesn't know I do. When I go tothe Rose Bowl I park a half mile away and walk to the stadium. It is good exercise and I beat the traffic. Trying to drive out of that place is next to impossible and there is no train or trolley that can get you there. Just the plain old automobile.
Yes, Colorado Boluevard could definitely use a subway at least on the days between Dec. 29 and Jan. 1 each year.
First of all Big Sal, the place is practicaly sold out for this entire season. The fans are especially enthusiastic about their new ballpark which is a far cry from windy and cold Candlestick. The new park means the city of San Francisco is still big league in sports and it means the Giants are in town to stay. I hope to able to procure tickets somehow when the Mets come to SF and for a Dodger series since the Giants and Dodgers is still the greatest rivalry in baseball. Go Mets!!!
my name is not sal_ when the newness fades off as it will soon the attendance will fall off too !! san francisco does not have
the big money of the braves dodgers yankees orioles etc... when i did like to watch sports it seems the little teams
like the cubs white sox red sox san diego milwaulkee seattle royals reds pirates and the small teams usually are left
are usually left out of playoffs etc... if i had it my way the giants dodgers would still be in new york !!
i wish i still could be a california angels fan but the $6 parking and high general admission fees food costs etc ...TOO HIGH !! how can you afford to attend a sports event today ?? they kill me with prices so high its out of the reach of regular working class folks !!
enjoy your new GIANTS STADIUM experence!. We have a new STAPLES CENTER here in los angeles right next to
the BLUE LINE and in future posts i would like to discuss how that was a failure too and the details and proff.
No wonder the giants will stay in san francisco they got the PORK they wanted a brand new STADIUM !!
( you must live in the bay area ) ...
maybe they will finally get CAL-TRAIN and muni right as they should have planned it in the first place !!
i remember WILLIE MAYS when he hit a HOMERUN in dodger stadium off of sandy koufax !!
and i remember back in the 1960s when the dodgers swept the yahkees 4 games straignt !!
MAN !!!! THOSE WHERE THE GOOD OLD DAYS !! enjoy your new stadium !!..you paid for it !!
and my name is not ...sal_...!!!
I live in Arcadia Salaam. I just meant that when I visit SF I can go to a new ballpark and watch in comfort. I'm a baseball nut.
$6 parking too high? GA ticket prices too high?HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Try going to a Rangers game. $150 for a nosebleed seat so you can watch the SUCK. Not to mention $18-$30 for parking (depends on how close you want to get)
-Hank
cool off fellah !!....I STOPPED going to sports events in the early 1980's HAHAHAHA..???
anyway sports turns me off !!... BUT if you want to feed corporate welfare and catch a nosebleed as you said ,.......
hope first you cant open the windows on a stuffy little R-142 with the A.C. has failed on the way to your
rangers game !!! (salaam) NOT SAL_....!! ......
This is the THIRD time I'm telling you, PacBell Park was entirely PRIVATELY FINANCED. The SF Giants took out a loan to build the stadium. What this shows is you never pay attention to FACTS. It also shows that many threats of teams to move to other lacales are simply empty threats. There are a number cities (Las Vegas, Richmond VA for example) that would instantly hand out tax breaks and a taxpayer-financed stadium to get a team.
I think that Montreal is also financing their new stadium patially private.
-Hank
It's like talking to a wall. I even tried sending a private, friendly e-mail about using a word processor to compose the message before posting. What came back to my box? A double mail of the same thing we find here, with two exact copies. And totally ignoring what I sent.
Oh, well. Live and Learn.
As to the public trough:
We didn't learn here. The O's play in a taxpayer-financed/suported stadium. They sell out 99% of the games. And the average fan can't afford to go. I've been there 3 times since 1992. And every time I went by streetcar (aka Light Rail).
According to the (massive and growing) economic literature about how monopoly sports leagues screw communities, threats to leave can be divided into two categories.
For small and medium sized metro areas like Baltimore, teams may indeed leave -- since the leagues ensure that the number of such metro areas with teams is lower than the number that could support them, thus leading to a game of musical chairs.
For major metro areas such as New York, Boston, and San Francisco, the teams are not going to leave. But they can play different parts of the region off against each other, ie. New York vs. New Jersey, and the number of New York area teams is kept below the number the area could support, leading to sky high ticket prices and rich TV contracts.
That's why the Pittsburgs of the world cannot compete with the Yankees. If there were three of four teams here dividing the regional market, each would be no richer than Pittsburg.
[For small and medium sized metro areas like Baltimore, teams may indeed leave -- since the leagues ensure that the number of such metro areas with teams is lower than the number that could support them, thus leading to a game of musical chairs.
For major metro areas such as New York, Boston, and San Francisco, the teams are not going to leave. But they can play different parts of the region off against each other, ie. New York vs. New Jersey]
In practical terms, playing off the different parts of the region against one another works just as well as threatening to leave the area entirely. From the typical NYC standpoint, there's no difference between the New Jersey Yankees and, say, the Las Vegas Yankees or the Charlotte Yankees. King George therefore can get massive tax breaks merely by holding out the spectre of Newark or the Meadowlands. And we have learned by sorry experience that NYC politicians lack the courage to stand up to these threats.
Hey Pete: Take a page from Los Angeles. When the football moguls tried to hold us up for tax-supported funds so they could get rich off of our sweat we told them to hit the road. We don't have pro-football and most of us don't give a damn. We turn on our TV's and see some choice games every Sunday, instead of what happened before------a blackout because our lousy teams couldn't sell out in a crummy stadium that was too big in the first place. We will eventually get pro football, but on our terms, not Taglispews. We're still big league, though. See our my Lakers gutted your Knicks Sunday. What a wipeout. Maybe even the Dodgers might do something for a change.
[Hey Pete: Take a page from Los Angeles. When the football moguls tried to hold us up for tax-supported funds so they could get rich off of our sweat we told them to hit the road. We don't have pro-football and most of us don't give a damn. We turn on our TV's and see some choice games every Sunday, instead of what happened before------a blackout because our lousy teams couldn't sell out in a crummy stadium that was too big in the first place. We will eventually get pro football, but on our terms, not Taglispews.]
What worked in Los Angeles won't necessarily cut the mustard in NYC. It's probably fair to say that cities have a collective spirit or sense of self, an agglomeration of individual viewpoints as filtered through the news media. This point is relevant because Los Angeles and NYC have very different spirits. From what I've gathered, Los Angeles is a city which, depsite its share of problems, is pretty confident about its future. In other words, most people probably feel that the city's best years are yet to come (and statistics might bear this out; the loss of population to other western cities and towns apparently has been stopped and possibly reversed). What all this means is that the people in Los Angeles have enough confidence in their city and in themselves to take in stride the loss of a football team. They know it won't be the end of the world.
NYC is rather different. There's a pervasive sense among New Yorkers, something I deplore for that matter, that the city's golden years were well in the past and that the future is dangerous at best. Witness the oceans of tears still being shed over the demolition of the old Penn Station, 35 years after the fact, in many cases by people who weren't even born at the time. With this hankering for the past - and even more significantly, fear of the future - New Yorkers would never do anything to risk the loss of a sports team. They would fear that the team's departure would be the first step down the path to ruin.
if a football team wants to move here (los angeles ) they can pay for the rebuild of the colisuem themselves !!!
It's also a fact that New York (and fans in the northeast in general) are more strongly tied to their teams than those in the L.A. area, in part because a lot of people out there are either new arrivals or just-passing-throughs, and don't have the roots in one single area fans in New York (or Boston, or Philly) do.
In the case of football, the fans never got strongly tied to the Raiders, since they fell apart after winning the Super Bowl just after arriving at the Coliseum, while Georgia and Dominic made the mistake of moving the Rams out of the central L.A. area and down to Aneheim. That would have been like the Jets and Giants moving out of New York City to Trenton instead of the Meadowlands and expecting all their fans to follow them down there.
People in the northern part of the L.A. basin don't seem to really care what happens to the teams down at Disneyland, so if the Angels, say, were to suddenly decide to pick up and move to Las Vegas, it would also be met by apathy. But if some rich Brooklynite were to buy the Dodgers and take them back east, then there would be some howling.
I used to like going to anehiem stadium but ......long story ........ ( by the way I agree with your post )....
let them howl !!
[But if some rich Brooklynite were to buy the Dodgers and take them back east, then there would be some howling.]
Subway door openings would have to be widened so Brooklynites could get their heads through :-)
(There's a pervasive sense among New Yorkers, something I deplore for that matter, that the city's golden years were well in the past and that the future is dangerous at best).
Actually, that is the point of view of people with power, the white welfare crowd. They still hold all the public offices despite their dwindling numbers, and their goal is to take as much as they can with them as they walk out the door. They see all those immigrants and yuppies swarming in and think the world is coming to an end. I beg to differ.
The city's view of itself, and the country's view of the city, is going the other way. It's one of the few real cities left standing.
Young people are piling in here like crazy. One dot-com has 1,000 openings, but they want to stay here because this is where the college grads want to come -- not Oskosh.
Wait until the census comes out and the city's population is recorded as 8,250,000 or so, a new record and 750,000 above 1990. (It was actually much higher than recorded in 1990, 1980, and 1970 too). Believe me I have reasons for this forecast, and you heard it here first.
Freddie and Nelson have been getting nowhere fast in their attempts to get Rudy to partially fund their retractable-dome, Roll-A-Grass® stadium they want to replace Shea with.
I wonder if they will start making threats to leave, or sell to Chuck Dolan, who may be able to build a new park with his funds alone.
The Shea location is an excellent one, with the LIRR, IRT and GCP all nearby.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm not going to another Mets game until the stadium issue is settled -- without my pocket being picked.
A chance for Hillary to win my vote: ask the state to help fund it. LOL
i totally agree with both of you larry littlefield and peter rosa !! right on topic !!....
you proved what i posted about GIANTS STADIUM 100% .!!!! at least they could have got the transit right !!
THey proved you NOTHING. You have yet to provide any sort of substatiation to your claim that PacBell park was taxpayer-funded, which it wasn't.
-Hank
then the mayor of san francisco WILLIE BROWN lied right ??...... it was his BABY !!!.........
he admitted this on KGO 810 am radio !!....
to hank and dan it was put out that GIANTS STADIUM was not corporate welfare financed and i know that HANK
believes that GIANTS STADIUM was privately financed 100%?? and of cource if you believe that hank-&-dan.....
then i have some prime beachfront property to sell you cheap in denver colorado where corporate welfare also
worked anginst the taxpayers & NEW STADIUMS.!. now they are trying to pull this scam of building a new PADRAE STADIUM !!
A nice shiny new corporate welfare stadium for the rockies baseball and the broncos football!! taxpayer paid again !!
maybe the baltamore orioles got it right as far as mass transit to and from thier stadium however corporate welfare
like what happened in tampa bay with a DOOM (dome) that still is being paid by the taxpayes DOLE like also in baltmore ??
OH WELL we here in lost angeles have ENOUGH problems like the BELLMONT school complex gone bad !!
and the HOLE IN THE GROUND red line subway was a boon-doggle.!! ( green line that refuses to go into the irport ) and police scandals etc....
ONE IDIOT COMMISONER mark ridley thomas tried to put CORPORATE WELFARE to re model the los angeles
colisuem ( you know the former home of the losangeles-DISNEYLAND-st louis RAMS............good riddance !! ).............
WE SAID HERE HELL NO go and build your stadiums with taxpayers expense in cities like SAN FRANCISCO !!
and finally the TRANSIT-NIGHTMARE that the mayor willie brown promished woud not happen !!!!!
thats why larry and peter i agree more with you ....re: .Sports Teams Threat to Leave... we said here ADIOS ST LOUIS RAMS !!
finally ......... too bad we cant seem to rebuild our rail transit system !!
Leave me OUT of your insane, 3 year-old generated posts, if you please. The less I hear of you, the better I like it.
One good thing:
I live on the East coast - you're on the West. There's a whole country between us.
it does not matter where and on what coast you live in the west or east coast the on topic discussion is how
public transportation is waisted and not used !! to boast saying "" i live on the east coast"" does not mean mistakes cant and have not been made there too !!
( this is to dan there is a whole lot of distance between the east and west coasts ) ....!!!!! like for example light rail in all of the us cities
especially in cities ( including the east coast ).......... saying that the diesel bus would place rail syatems better !! what a joke ! like a question to
be made there too like why did new jersey replace its light rail system instead of keeping what they had !!
the transit myth us coined whenever any rail system is destroyed by the vehicle manufacturing companies and
the oil companies dont let them do this to you on the east coast dan !! and corporate welfare sports stadiums !!
they had three rail transit systems in place and blew all three in san francisco what a shame !! AND
on opening day of GIANTS STADIUM which was built at the taxpayers expense !! .. also i thought SUBTALK
was not only for the EAST COAST ONLY !! ....( dan ) .!!
YOU ARE A MORON. Read somthing besides 'The Onion' and the 'National Enquirer'. The Giants funded their new stadium COMPLETELY with a bank loan. The bought the land, the drove the piles, the bought the concrete, they sold the seats. NO PART OF PacBell park was paid for with tax dollars, you cement-headed, ignorant, jelly-for-brains JACKASS!!!!!!
Congratulations on being the first person to be enough of an idiot to anger me enough to tell someone else to FUCK OFF ASSHOLE!
-Hank
I apologize to all readers who will see this before it gets deleted (as well it should) except Salaam Allah, and to you Dave, for not keeping my anger in check. From the early days of this board until today, I have contributed, joined, and participated in many a discussion. I learned a lot about the subways, city planning, and transportation in general.
Looking back at it, I have no regrets whatsoever. It needed saying. Dozens of well-reasoned posts from myself and others, an open letter explaining to him why so many of us posted replies to him insulting him and such, and I tried in vain to refrain from that. In the end, it seems that 'ignorance' will always beat fact and reason. As much as I have enjoyed visiting, contributing, and joining members on field trips, I must say, this will likely be the last time I post a message here. Anyone who feels the need to contact me, my email address is above.
Goodbye, and above all, good riddance, Salaam Allah. You bring shame to the name of a man who stands for peace and love of all mankind. I hope you're happy.
-Hank
wait a minute !! dont run away answer the rail-fan-window-post !!
i dont need your apology !!
Hank - I read this post cold and don't know what percipitated it. There are a precious few people here who offer anything in the way of meaningful dialog. You are one of them without you and the handful of others this will become a forum for
A) People asking serious questions.
B)People asking stupid questions (and yes, there are stupid questions)
C)People posting their opinions either sane or inane.
Again, I don't know what percipitated this but I'd ask that you reconsider, if only to add balance to the preponderance of ignorance that now hangs on our asses.
Steve
What precipitated it is all there. In short, I'm tired of seeing post after post after post that's more than impossible to read. I'm tired of the repetitive posts, harking on things long disproved. I'm tired of reading people keeping score. I'm tired of trying to control my temper every time I reply to a post by the terminaly uninformed, only to read as a reply to that 'Oh, YEAH??' Then I read the rest of the replies to both the new posts and the original post, and all I see is the same thing, repeated over and over again, increasingly difficult to read, and increasingly stupid. I'm tired of spending my valuable time weeding out those posts that are simply idiotic and repetitve. I'm tired of trying to explain things as simply as possible to persons whose brains have been nuetered. It's completely ruined the experience of this board for me, and I'm sure several others. I'm not the type to sit idly by and what has become our 'society' (to put in one way) come crashing to a halt. I tried to be proactive, I tried working to solve the problem, and now, I'm going to ignore the problem, and it WILL go away. As the number of moron posts increase, the number of intelligent and/or informative posts (no matter how imperfect) will decrease slowly to zero, at which point this board no longer needs to exist.
-Hank
PS-I expect (since I will most likely lurk here occasionally, and not post; I refuse to hide my identity) to see many a repetitve post calling me a liar now, since my 'apology' post was supposed to be my last. But mark my words, the majority of the discussions will simply degenerate as others decide that it's not worth their time to weed out the idiocy.
-Hank
He has proven, more than anyone else, the importance of a killfile. The search utility lets you search for messages posted by a particular author. The opposite needs to be true.
[I'm tired of trying to control my temper every time I reply to a post by the terminaly uninformed, only to read as a reply to that 'Oh, YEAH??' ... I'm tired of trying to explain things as simply as possible to persons whose brains have been nuetered.]
It's totally pointless trying to hold a rational discussion with Salaam Allah. No matter how clearly you explain yourself, he won't get the point and will respond with nonsense. So it's easier just to ignore him.
[I'm tired of spending my valuable time weeding out those posts that are simply idiotic and repetitve.]
Do what I do, and don't bother reading his posts.
The Big Sal can be difficult but let's not write him completely off yet.
my name is not big sal__ this thread needs to die off !! or is that asking for too much ?
my name is not big sal__ this thread needs to die off !! or is that asking for too much ?..
Already done.
-Hank
Hank, Peter makes a good suggestion which seems to work for me too, i.e. I'll read most of the first posts in a thread then skip the rest if it nonsense or not to my liking OR as I've said before ... just because the phone rings doesn't mean you have to answer it. If you just have to reply, count to ten, maybe twice, and read what you've wrote before you click ... if it inflames the topic, use the backspace key, i.e. let the thread die ... if the looney starts it up again, ignore it.
As you also said, this site can bring a lot of joy and learning. Many of us have something we can teach the others, you included, but stay focused on the fun part and the nonsense won't bother you as much.
Case in point, the past few days I have been enjoying talking to Todd & Conrad about SIRT 366 & 388. I'm also still hopping for a Field Trip on the SIRT, hint hint ... still have never been on that line :-)
Walking thru the weeds & worring about a tick bite isn't my cup of tea, e.g. my mom up in Ct has been bit several times.
Mr t__:^)
If you are so tired of arguing with him, why don't you just IGNORE him. Any post here has it's author's name right next to it. Itseems rather obvious that YOU wish to perpetuate the problem as much as he does.
Just ignore him. Got that? I-G-N-O-R-E
I've been doing it for awhile now. I see his name next to a post, I ignore it. VERY EASY to do.
posting a name then adding flamage .....what is the point ??...I take any chat room or subtalk e-mail etc... with a small grain of salt !
not as exclusive format for east coast rail systems only !! HOWEVER it does seem that some of you have this set idea (s) .....yours only etc...
as to how all things should go in this format... as for myself even ""heypaul" and some others we want to
""lighten up"' and not take everything about RAIL TRANSIT WORLDWIDE so serious as SOME of you do !
i would like to thank the webmaster for learning experence to where to go and shoot pictures and vidieos etc....
and i am still in contact with those who enjoy my vidieos and they enjoy what i send them !!
to me this is what most of us subtalkers are all about not doing SPELL CHECKS on everything and everybody that puts up a post !!!
and also putting up open posts with another subtalker to ______________*^#*^#**!!!!! and even hate e -mails ........boys please grow up !!
There's no reason to stop posting just because of Salaamallah. Just ignore the schmuck, like I do.
I would never post your name on subtalk mr schmuck !! andI would not flam you as you have just done !!
may I from now on may i call you mr schmuck as you do ?? is that ok with you ??"
an open apology to all except hank ..? ... give me a break.. no thank you .!!..
For you to quit would be absolutely wrong. You have kept your cool in this futile war a lot longer than I have, and have come out with well thought out arguments, which of course were for naught considering who they were directed at. It is obvious that the fabric of SubTalk has been rocked because of this menace. Nobody else has caused such emotional response. Blocking his respondents will not put an end to it. Blocking him is simple and will end the threads that can only lead to sorrow.
Of course, perhaps for suggesting that and for continuing to participate in these threads I might be blocked, so if I'm gone, don't be surprised.
I understand you frustration. Without mentioning names, there are several people whose posts I do not read under any circumstances since I feel they don't have too much to offer. But that is simply my opinion.
finally this nut named dan who insists on taking subtalk down to its lower level since _______ you know who he is !!
you know its a shame hat some poeple are looking for a fight with the WWF why dont they go to those chat rooms ?
thank you bill !!
Hank,
There is no real need to apologize to us. I think at some point Sal pissed us all off. Some responded, some didn't.
We just have to ignore him and hope to god that he goes away.
I've been in this situation on bustalk more than once and learned my lesson quite well.
Let's just go on, SUBWAY FOREVER! R142 FOREVER!
R142 Boi 2K
like i said before many of us do not take subtalk e-mails and chat rooms with a very small grain of salt !!
especially 142 type idiots who insist on disrespect and mispells someones name worng with intention and malace !!
what lesson did you learn on bustalk ?? little boys need to grow up !! i dont take this forum serious as some of you
who think that somehow your life hangs on every word like this SPELLCHECK squad but yet you mispell peoples names !! example; my name is not ...sal___
remember to pay your $ 666.oo lifetime membership fee !... I will leave getting pissed off or mad to some of you idiots !!
it would be a waste of my time !!
Come on Big Sal, let's put this stuff to bed once and for all. We should all be buddies and "friendly" rivals on this site. There's enough room for various opinions without anyone getting mad. Relax! I think The Big Sal is bigger than that.
Fred,
If you want to extend the proverbial olive branch you might consider beginning by calling Salaam by his proper name. He at least deserves that much respect.
thank you very much sir !! we can agree and disagree SHOUT etc ( no flamage ) but at least i try to spell
your name right ! ( thank you )...
Salaam: I was meaning The Big Sal as a compliment like you are the Big Guy, but it didn't come out right I guess, so no more. From now on it's Salaam. Chao.
fine with me......... i thought it was being used as a insult or flamage ( maybe i went to far on this )......... !! ( thank you )......
maybe you would like to see the detroit people mover on vidieo !!
Fred, perhaps you should be saying "Can't we all just get along?" The peacemaker rap is getting as tiring as Salaamallah's slaughtering of the english language. Please don't take this as a critism - just an observation.......
Hey Dude: You are a tough one. The fact is I usually never run from a controversy of any kind, but I've grown fond of my colleagues on this website and, if we are going to have any rivalries, let's keep them friendly. But it;s nice to know that someone out there looks as me as a "good guy". Enjoy your weekend.
............please .......... kill this thread.....(thank you)......
this thread should DIE ...!!
Gary: You are right, no more Big Sal. Actually I was calling him The Big Sal, like the Big Salmon, Salami, Salad. It was meant as a compliment, but I can see that it wasn;t from what I've been hearing. I stand corrected. Salaam from now on.
like i said before many of us do not take subtalk e-mails and chat rooms with a very small grain of salt !!
especially 142 type idiots who insist on disrespect and mispells someones name worng with intention and malace !!
what lesson did you learn on bustalk ?? little boys need to grow up !! i dont take this forum serious as some of you
who think that somehow your life hangs on every word like this SPELLCHECK squad but yet you mispell peoples names !! example; my name is not ...sal___
remember to pay your $ 666.oo lifetime membership fee !... I will leave getting pissed off or mad to some of you idiots !!
it would be a waste of my time !!
Come on Big Sal, let's put this stuff to bed once and for all. We should all be buddies and "friendly" rivals on this site. There's enough room for various opinions without anyone getting mad. Relax! I think The Big Sal is bigger than that.
Fred,
If you want to extend the proverbial olive branch you might consider beginning by calling Salaam by his proper name. He at least deserves that much respect.
thank you very much sir !! we can agree and disagree SHOUT etc ( no flamage ) but at least i try to spell
your name right ! ( thank you )...
Salaam: I was meaning The Big Sal as a compliment like you are the Big Guy, but it didn't come out right I guess, so no more. From now on it's Salaam. Chao.
fine with me......... i thought it was being used as a insult or flamage ( maybe i went to far on this )......... !! ( thank you )......
maybe you would like to see the detroit people mover on vidieo !!
Fred, perhaps you should be saying "Can't we all just get along?" The peacemaker rap is getting as tiring as Salaamallah's slaughtering of the english language. Please don't take this as a critism - just an observation.......
Hey Dude: You are a tough one. The fact is I usually never run from a controversy of any kind, but I've grown fond of my colleagues on this website and, if we are going to have any rivalries, let's keep them friendly. But it;s nice to know that someone out there looks as me as a "good guy". Enjoy your weekend.
............please .......... kill this thread.....(thank you)......
this thread should DIE ...!!
Gary: You are right, no more Big Sal. Actually I was calling him The Big Sal, like the Big Salmon, Salami, Salad. It was meant as a compliment, but I can see that it wasn;t from what I've been hearing. I stand corrected. Salaam from now on.
NOT FOREVER! 40-45 years, maybe 50, then the replacements come in, but NOT FOREVER.
1.) Who is currently planning on going on the SIR/SIRT trip? I ask b/c it has been a while since this was discussed and plans change.
2.) And now that I hopefully have your attention I ask that you let me have it for one minute more. I just would like to ask every one to take a deep breath and walk away from their computers (or at least SubTalk) for 15 minutes to cool off.
Everyone here is a human being (or show some traits of, as in pigs case) and therefore has feelings, has emotions, has rights to speak, has the tendancy to respond to taunts, and has the capability to balance all of these things.
I hope we all can show that trait here.
There is no need to use a person's name in a subject unless it is a question to/for him/her. If it is obvious who is being spoken about, the regular SubTalkers will understand. Now any one who lurks in here for the next few days (or longer) will see this thread and automatically be biased against the individual mentioned.
There is alot to be said to "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all." Silence can be deafening. This goes to all of you. Both the attack-ers and attack-ies need to hold your tounges a bit more.
It is very obvious that attacks (personal or b/c of views and opinions) breed more of the same.
Lets just see if calm, rational, thought-out posts can have the same results. Mind you there is nothing wrong with humor. Just leave it as such.
Original post -> reply -> joke -> -> a few "ha ha" posts.
Instead of:
Original post -> reply -> joke -> -> flame -> flame -> flame -> flame -> flame -> flame
All be warned - if your posts are flames / trolls / full of holier-than-thou attitude / or simply juvinile beyond the purpose of a lightening of the mood, I will ignore you. Please do not make me tune out fellow rail fans.
Thank you for your time and I hope we can all let those flame threads die right here and now.
If you reply to my original question please do not include any of this text so we can all drop it and get on with our lives.
-- David
I'll be there, with extra arms to carry equipment. I'll probably meet people at Port Richmond. I gave directions to Port Richmond, but we seem to have no anticpated meeting time at that location.
-Hank
We'll be there (weather permitting), and we probably will also start from Port Richmond. I e-mailed Mark with a few questions a few weeks ago including the one of the exact meeting location, but he has not answered. I presume he will post all the details soon.
[YOU ARE A MORON. Read somthing besides 'The Onion' and the 'National Enquirer'.]
Like the _Weekly World (12-year-old has Elvis' baby) News_?
I went to the ballpark just before the Saturday game (didn't have a ticket, so I just walked around a little) from Berkeley. I got on BART at Downtown Berkeley and took it to Montgomery Station (to avoid any crowds at Embarcadero). The train didn't seem any more crowded than normal, although there were a few Giants fans on board. I switched to the Muni Metro, there were only about 10-15 people on the platform. About 30 seconds after I got there an inbound K marked Mission Bay came, when it got to Embarcadero a big crowd of giants fans got on, at Folsom there was another crowd, at Brannan it didn't look like anyone got on but a couple people got off, and pretty much everyone including myself got off at 2nd & King (the station in front of the ballpark). There were trains arriving from Embarcadero on both sides of the platform, it looked like the N, J, & K were the only lines going there. Every time a train arrived at the station there was another one coming around the curve, everything seemed to run smoothly, there was no disaster, no nightmare, no gridlock (traffic was actually lighter than normal). I don't know about CalTrain, though.
cal train was the worst muni was second however a BART was the only one who halfway got it right !!
did you check on muni and cal-train that same night ?? on kgo radio thats where most of the complaints
came from and there were BART complaints too ( maybe not at the time you were there ) and did you
hang around the BART stations to see if after the two trains you saw that there were others in backup ??
according to all who called the talk radio stations there they would all disagree with you !!!
Talk radio attracts fringe wackos. And PacBell park was PRIVATELY FINANCED by the GIANTS, not the Bay Area taxpayers.
-Hank
then the mayor of san francisco willie brown lied right ? just like in st louis right ??and now in seattle and san diego!!
You tell me where he said anything about how the city of SF built the stadium for the giats (I'd like to see the SOURCE for this information) and I'll tell you then if he lied or not. Until then, you're just a fringe wacko.
-Hank
CalTrain, with a history of horrible service, provided horrible service according to everything I've heard. But there were NO big problems reported at all with BART or Muni (except from you, who wasn't there), and I personally witnessed and heard of no problems while I was there, except for one ferry having to wait a few minutes to dock because there was no room (and that problem is there because the ferry landing isn't finished yet). Muni had breda lrvs lined up past the station, probably to handle the crowds after the game.
bart was the least offender and made mistakes also but muni drew many complaints and yes cal train was the worst !!
i agree with most fo waht you said !!
bart was the least offender and made some mistakes also but muni drew many complaints and yes cal train was the worst !!
i agree with most fo what you said !!..
On Thursday I visited the Trolley musuem at Steamtown in Scranton. There are very nice displays which are educational and entertaining. Cars on display include surburbans from Philadephia and one section of the museum which is closed off to the public for restoring cars, but you can see whats happening in it because of the large glass doors.
Rides are expected to start on Memorial day and admission is $3.00.
On Thursday I visited the Trolley musuem at Steamtown in Scranton. There are very nice displays which are educational and entertaining. Cars on display include surburbans from Philadephia and one section of the museum which is closed off to the public for restoring cars, but you can see whats happening in it because of the large glass doors.
Rides are expected to start on Memorial day and admission is $3.00.
The phone of the museum is (570) 963-6590
If you've never seen a 1925 SIRT Standard Steel Car Company car, Seashore acquired #366 in 1993. Today while at Seashore, I had to tow it to get to a car which it was blocking (no, it doesn't move under its own power). Four new pictures from today have been posted by Dave on the Museum Car Roster Page; just scroll down to "SIRT 366" then click on the thumbnails. By the way, it was towed by our electric locomotive #300, which is seen nearby in two of the pictures.
More Seashore shuffling tomorrow!
Nice to see her get a breath of fresh air.
BTW, the link to Dave's page is a great place to take a peek on the status of some of your favorite old cars !
Mr t__:^)
BTW, the SIRT #366 car has rebuilt motors, a like-new air compressor, and has the roof painted.
Otherwise it is reasonably weather-tight, a protective tarp has just been purchased and will be installed shortly.
It is mechanically complete, just needs a lot of "TLC", lots of time, and some money...
Well Conrad yesterday I lovingly towed it back to Fairview Yard, where
it awaits your tarp and all the TLC, time, and money people can donate.
It was nice to see "Coney Island Yard" defoliated, so hopefully
sometime in the not so distant future we can have a yard dedicated
to rapid transit vehiles. (For those unfamiliar with Seashore,
our barns and yards are jammed with vehicles. "Coney Island Yard"
is envisioned as a rapid transit vehicle area, so that they can
be given care and protection -- and also free up space for our
trolley collection.)
I like that idea. Personally I'd like to see my own Museum house it's RT vehicles apart from the Trolley Collection.....
-Stef
I wonder if Gibbs 3352 ever paid a visit to the real Coney Island Yard before its retirement.
One of these days, when I'm at NH (Shoreline), I'll have to ask how weather tight sister 388 is, as she's outside with no tarp too. A member of the 3/4 ton crew has a special affection for these cars, so make sure you keep good notes on your restoration efforts.
Mr t__:^)
The fellows at Branford (pardon me, Shore Line!) have done a neat job on #388 thusfar. As I gather the Branford folks got some parts when the SIRT was scrapping the cars in the early 70s that will make the restoration easier (seats, windows, etc.)
I don't know what we'll do, probably use Cambridge Tunnel car windows and make new seats. Seashore's car 366 is more complete mechanically than 388 but is in worse physical shape (rust). The underbody is excellent, though, except around the anticlimbers. Lots of minor collision damage.
Car 388 sits outside but it is buttoned up, glazed, and has a cosmetic paint job, so it's stabilized, which is a great start.
[Car 388 sits outside but it is buttoned up, glazed, and has a cosmetic paint job, so it's stabilized, which is a great start.]
One of the folks here, who is also a SubTalker, did some more of the same to our Standard recently ... maybe someday they'll roll again under their own power ! Meanwhile don't hide 366 as Lou, formally of SI, now of Brooklyn will want to see her in July, as will the rest of us subway buffs.
Mr t__:^)
Did you get that Todd?????
Seriously, good for you folks at Shore Line. I was a member there in the late 70s/early 80s, I remember when the B type and H&M car came. I did a little work there but I was just a teenager then so I couldn't do much.
You folks seem to have realized that cosmetic jobs are often all a vehicle needs (I wish I could get that through to some of the folks at Seashore). Often if you just make a car look good someone else will come along and spend time and effort on the mechanical side of things. Doing an entire restoration job yourself is enough to tire anyone. At least if a car looks good the public will understand what it is and was about.
Wish we had more of that spirit at Seashore!
Got it, Conrad. Hopefully you will be at Seashore the day that the SubTalk fantrip takes place in July. I know that the group will want to see all of our NYC collection. Last summer's mini-field trip was a great success, and hopefully this summer's will be bigger and better!
Conrad my friend I think you have it in a nut shell ...
"You folks seem to have realized that cosmetic jobs are often all a vehicle needs ... Often if you just make a car look good someone else
will come along and spend time and effort on the mechanical side of things."
While cosmetic work may be enough for a car in great mechanical shape like the R-17 or the R-9, as you well know the big "M" word is money. There is just never enough to go around, so the mngt. of a museum has their budget meeting and they decide what they can afford to restore, meanwhile a group of folks, like the 3/4 ton crew, is willing to come up and do meaningful work. Mngt. reacts to this by finding something else for us to do that everyone can see when we're done, but it doesn't cost a lot of cash. Our current newsletter editor is very good about shouting from the roof tops about all the little things that are getting done at Shoreline ... this may be motivating even more members to drop by. We also have a member who is very good at shaking down the local vendors for free stuff, e.g. a truck load of trap rock here, some wire there ... now if only this translates to more customers the "M" word will be less of an issue.
I wish you folks in Kennebunkport, Kingston, and elsewhere all the best in your similar efforts to make progress saving our favorite cars
and look forward to hearing your reports of same.
Mr t__:^)
Very well said, Conrad. It seems that we have lost the art of the broom job at Seashore. Major projects are great, but if you can do something to spruce up an eyesore over a couple of weekends, people feel like they accomplished something, and the place looks a lot better.
Also looking forward to seeing some more subtalkers at Seashore.
Thank you all for the welcome at Shoreline last month!
Gerry
I was on Brooklyn late last week and stopped in the Info Center at 370 Jay. There is now a "Multiligual" edition of The Map dated March 2000. It is in the same basic format as the earlier subway maps of its type. That is, some of the narrative and system information is in various languages (in addtion to English). Only the Subway side of the map has this. The RR side is in all English as before.
The front the the MAP is pinkish with the flags of 9 different countires above the "the" and the date.
Before the Macdonald Ave. trolley tracks were paved over, I used to see what were either freight or work trains operating there from time to time. Where did they originate and what was their destination ?
That's the former South Brooklyn RR (SBK) Trains ran from 2nd Ave and 39st, via the West End line and the lower level of the 9th Ave station, and then on street trackage. There are 1 or 2 customers left, but I don't think any of them are on the street trackage any longer. The line has been used in the past to deliver subway cars to CI yard from the interchange with the NY Cross Harbor (NYCH) in the area near what is now the Brooklyn Costco at 38st.
-Hank
[There are 1 or 2 customers left, but I don't think any of them are on
the street trackage any longer.]
Hank, could you somehow find out who these 1 or 2 customers are? As far as I know SBK has no other clients outside of it's parent company, in the form of movements of equipment between other RRs and the NYCT system.
Doug aka BMTman
The last two companies that I knew of that had deliverys made by the South Brooklyn where Davidson Pipes and some company where
they hald pickle juice. I dont know whether or not these ompanies are still in buisness or if they still use the Freight Service.
Golds Horseradish one one of the last customers to use the freight service but they are long gone now. I think they moved out to Long Island.
Yes, I believe they (Gold's Horesradish - the very best, IMHO) moved to Hempstead. They seem like a nice outfit, when they moved they started a van service from Brooklyn so they could keep their old employees.
Another fairly big SBK customer was Roberts Food. I don't know their product line but I know they were into restaurant and catering supply. At one time they had their own tank cars that were small enough to fit under the el.
My understanding is that the Davidson Pipe site was quite a cause celebre during the Lindsay Administration. Supposedly the TA owned the land and wanted to build a replacement for 5th Ave Depot there. Allegedly Davidson threatened to move from the city if they were evicted and "played the race card". Since they employed a number of local area residents, who happened to be minorities, they threatened to sue on the basis of racial discrimination. So the issue died and 5th Ave was rebuilt on its old site.
Any embellishment from anyone old enough to have voted for (or against) Lindsay????
Very informative post, Conrad. Thanks. I'm going to add your info into my files on the subject of former SBK clients.
BTW, I'm not sure if (or how many of) our fellow SubTalkers are aware that the old Davidson Pipe lot was actually the original BRT Elevated storage facility (at the time of electrification). It later became the original SBK-interchange yard, then Davidson Pipe and then (currently) the Costco warehouse.
Once the BRT became the BMT, the original yard was moved to/combined with the current 36th Street NYCT maintenance facility across from Green-Wood Cemetary.
Doug aka BMTman
In fact, while the site was being cleared, one of the service pits was exposed. We were able to salvage some PCC operator's seats, tools and some other neat things. Unfortunately, the contractor destroyed an interesting mechanical car lift.
FYI, sometime around 1978 or so Wilbur Smith Associates (I heard Mr. Smith was a friend of Robert Moses) did a detailed study of the SBK that is a neat slice in time - pictures, maps, and a detailed client description.
WSA is very much still in business. Typically they will give stuff like that away (particularly if you tell them you're a college student doing a paper on the topic).
Maybe worth pursuing if you have a genuine interest in the topic.
Davidson Pipe I was aware of since that was the location where the SBK would sometimes lay-up their diesels. Davidson had a HUGE area that is now the current Costco Warehouse and parking lot. Davidson Pipe sold off that property in the late 80's and relocated to a smaller facility over on 50th and 2nd (less than a 1/2 mile down the Avenue from their original site).
Another client was a Cocoa importing company (exact name and location is not known) somewhere within the Bush Terminal area.
Doug aka BMTman
I don't know where that CostCo is, but in earlier days new subway trains were brought in by the more direct route of Bay Ridge LIRR to Parkville, then McDonald Ave. surface tracks to CI Yard.
Costco is between 2nd and 3rd Aves. and 37th and 39th Sts.
It has two floors, and these really cool flat escalators*. Cart wheels are specially modified so they stay in place and don't roll while on the escalator.
*Less steep than a true escalator, and no steps, it's a moving ramp. It consists of metal plates like an escalator.
Sounds like a good candidate for the ramps at Broadway / Naussa , but only a dream
avi
Those type of escalators -- that are more accurately called 'moving sidewalks' -- are in use as Newark Airport, LAX and Miami Airport.
I believe the old Burlington Mill exhibit in mid-town Manhattan was the first place I ever saw those movers in use.
I think idealistic urban planners back in the 40's and 50's thought that cities in the future would be criss-crossed with these moving sidewalks as an added form of mass transit!
Doug aka BMTman
SEE RUMOUR hUMOUR
But this thing is on an incline, the airport walkways are flat.
There is actually a fair incline to one end of one of them at Newark.
Is it anything like the ramp escalators at the mall on Metropolitan Av just W/O the "M" terminal? It goes to the roof parking and food court and people wheel shopping carts up and down it. Until I saw your post I thought it was unique in the city.
I don't know about shopping carts..I remember when Caldor was there, they employed people to place items in large bins and they went up those ramps that way...I don't know about now since Caldor was turned into Big K-mart..But I know one thing...At least one of those damned ramps is always inoperable.
Subways
Part 3
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Join Annie Cheney as she explores life and survival underground in
a three-part series on the subways to be aired during Morning Edition.
Subways
Part 2
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Join Annie Cheney as she explores life and survival underground in
a three-part series on the subways to be aired during Morning Edition.
Subways
Part 1
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Join Annie Cheney as she explores life and survival underground in
a three-part series on the subways to be aired during Morning Edition.
So, tonight(Sat) I just checked the SF MUNI LRV website which was showing many outbound trains including a 4 car set apparently a ballpark train. They appear to be doing the advertised--filling up as the game breaks and dispatching many trains. Huzzah!
why then did the callers at kgo radio there report total rail transit failure especially at the end of opening day ?? huzzah??
Because the program tried to claim that such a thing happened in it's typical sensationalist tactic. Those that didn't believe either didn't listen or didn't call, if they did, then they were screened off. Each radio station has an agenda, KGO's agenda seems to be to complain either about the stadium, the transit system or both.
As a rule I do not pay much attenton to radio call in shows. Most of the callers never went to the game.
one caller was stuck on a CAL-TRAIN while on a cell phone two hours still dead waiting on the tracks !!
he was live on bernie wards kgo newstalk 810 on the a.m. dial the signal was recieved strong after 8 pm pst a signal heard all over the west coast and canada and on real audio on the KGO NEWSTALK 810 and KCBS ALL NEWS ALL THE TIME CBS 24 NEWS STATION !!
along with in the bay area interviews and news report of the on going and unfolding as it was happening live....
transit disaster(s) along with the 100% total dissatisfaction with all transit service especially CAL-TRAIN
and MUNI LIGHT RAIL SYSTEMS !! .................... so did these callers all lie??..........you be the judge ..!!
what i would like is to hear posts of actual VICTIMS OF THIS TRANSIT DISASTER(S) .!!!
then explain kcbs cbs radio in the bay area ( oh yes they had an agenda too !! ) ...........
I heard that the new IRT subway lines will have a new terminal this is the way how is going to work:
#8 Lexington Avenue Local Pelham Exp- between BB and Pelham Bay Park.
#10 Lexington Avenue Exp Bx Thru Exp- between 238 St and Flatbush replacing the #5 train between 238 St and 180 St and Bowling Green and Flatbush.
#11 Flushing Exp- between Times Square and terminating either Willets Point or Main Street (no idea).
#13 Broadway- 7 Ave Exp- between 137 St and New Lots Ave. (just how it happen in 1998 when #3 service was reroute to 137 St)
#14 Lexington/Jerome Ave Exp- between Woodlawn and Utica Ave replacing #4 at nightime and it will run Exp along Jerome Ave. If you have any questions you would write to me.
What happened to #12? Where did you hear about these new lines going into service?
No questions, but read the new post about Bronx thru-express.
Actually, the official plan for the unused numbers is as follows:
#8: The Third Avenue El will be built as light rail, from 156th & Third to 204th & Webster. Non-stop, $3.00 fare, no transfers.
#10: From Dyre via Bronx Express, Lexington Exp, South
Ferry Loop, 7th Av local, switch to express track north of 34th, then express, Lenox, Bronx local to 241st. This will operate on alternate rainy Thursdays in July, from 12:00 midnight to 12:34 AM, on a 6.5-minute headway, except during a solar eclipse.
#11, #12, #13: Three-way skip-stop from Main Street via Flushing express to Queensboro Plaza, then switch to BMT Broadway to 57th, then reverse through 63rd Street into Queens Blvd express tracks, then reverse into Crosstown Line (replacing the G), through to Smith-9th, then reverse via F to Bway-Lafayette, then reverse and wrong-rail through Chrystie Street, over Williamsburg Bridge and Broadway-Brooklyn to Eastern Parkway, into Canarsie Line and reverse to 8th Avenue. [Since Metropolitan and Lorimer will NOT be all-stop stations, none of the three will transfer to itself.] Will run 24/7, 2.5-minute headway at all times, 3-car trains, double-ended with conductor.
:-) :-)
Could somebody tell me if the R27/30 rollsigns have signs of "W","V" if somebody knows tell me what is read on the sign tell me what direction its says.
The R30 had the "V" rollsigns when all these cars had their signs replaced in 1983-4. The "W" rollsign was installed in some cars that had their signs replaced again in 1988.
The V had the 1980's type "Avenue of Americas (6th Ave) local" on it. The W had the later style which included all branches of a line: "Astoria-Broadway".
I ride the bus and will ride the the Light Rail lines Everyday In The Phoenix, Arizona Metro Area because I cant afford to Purchace a car and all the expences that accompany a car and at 19$ a month (My Company pays the 15$ difference in Monthly Bus Passes) You cant beat that cost with a car. None of the anti-transit avoacates think about the % of Residents who have to use transit due to Age (Under 18/(21 in NYC) and our Elders (Over 6-) and also persons with disabilitys to get to work/school/shopping. All of us need public transit. Taxi rates are unaffordable for day to day needs (As Example Where I Live in metro phoenix Cab service is unreguated and the major cab companys charge 3.00 per mile and if you want to go to the airport on top of the milage charge a $10 airport fee is charged. (Only 3 taxi companys are allowed to pickup/dropoff at airport these companies are licenced by the airport)
So true!
Where I live outside of Newark, NJ, the buses are kind of slow, but they get me around.
There are two things that I hate, though. One, the fact that the Newark Subway is shut down on the weekends and I dread having to take the substitute bus. It runs half as often (or seems to do so, anyway) and takes twice as long to make the trip from Franklin to Penn (almost 25 minutes!). Also, the fact that on Sundays, the bus that normally stops at my corner takes a different route, leaving no bus service at my corner. I have to walk either a 1/4 mile in one direction or 1 mile in the other to get a bus. In addition, they run infrequently.
With that aside, I would like to add that sometimes when I have free time, I will go "sightseeing" on the NJ Transit buses. It's somewhat surprising how far a trip on one or two buses can take you.
Someday Tucson will also wake up and get a voter-approved mandate to build light rail, or something better than SunTran and the usual hare-brained ideas to widen roads and build new interstates. I have to use my NYC driver smarts to get around all the rush-hour back-ups caused by development which has far outpaced transportation planning and forecasting. Can't wait to try out the LRV up there in Phoenix. Maybe a city-to-city rail link soon? We can only hope.
[None of the anti-transit avoacates think about the % of Residents who have to use transit due to Age (Under 18/(21 in NYC) ]
The driving age in NYC is 18. It is 16 in the rest of the state.
It varies between 17 and 18 depending on Drivers' Ed completion. One can drive when one is 16 IN a Drivers' Ed class. One can also obtain a license at age 16, one just won't be able to use it in New York City.
I've never quite understood that. After all, under the federal reciprocity legislation (which, if you accept federal funds for any kind of transportation, you agree to abide by), a jurisdiction must recognize a valid operator's license or permit issued by any other United States jurisdiction, as long as the operator is at least 14 years of age and is abiding by the rules established for the permit or license which they have. Thanks to this legislation, my younger daughter drove through the Lincoln Tunnel at rush hour, down the West Side to Battery Park, via the Staten Island Ferry, and across Staten Island and back to New Jersey via Outerbridge Crossing, just after her fifteenth birthday (in North Carolina you can obtain a learner's permit at 15, providing you have taken driver's ed first).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Could somebody tell me why sometimes on the R38 trains on the "A" line you could find on the rollsigns marked "Rockaways" Queens because I seen it alot(doesn't that mean that it is going to both Rockaways) because the only thing that was used was for the Rockaway robin-round "H" service of which that line had been abandoned for like 8 years and ran to both Rockaways maybe thats why the train is marked like that.
The R38 rollsigns were installed before the round robin night service was discontinued. I always found that "The Rockaways" sign a bit strange, as it's too vague and could confuse an inexperienced rider.
When you see that sign on an R38, the person who changed the sign made an error. There is no more round robin service.
Other day i was on F line heading back to manhattan & i got to Queens Plaza i saw a conductor on G line. I thought those line are used only OPTO for 24/7. Also i saw 8 cars with #6052-53, #6055-54, #6074-75, & #6077-76 on G line. Any way i don't trust OPTO because it very danger for people getting on the train & i don't want to see OPTO on Lexington Av, 7th Ave/Broadway Line in the future.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
OPTO service on the G line is limited to nights only. However, when it gets cut back to Court Sq. full time when 63rd. St opens, it could go OPTO 24/7.
OPTO is in effect on the Saturday and Sunday schedules only (Court Sq. service). The TA day starts on the midnite tour. In other words, the G is not OPTO evenings and midnites Monday thru Friday,when 6 car R46's are operated. It can be OPTO only when 4 cars are operated, from Friday PM till Monday morning shortly after the midnite crews come in. Friday PM G trains have daily PM crews so it is not OPTO. They are simply getting ready for OPTO implementation after midnite.
Now back up your claim on OPTO being unsafe, or is it just that the extra person somehow makes you feel safer?
Can anybody validate whether Phila. has ever had an mishap with the OPTO on the M-4'S ?
Their trains are shorter.
You know, if you go back in the archives of several of the musuems, you will find that many of the anti-OPTO arguements are exactly waht was said in the 1920's and 30's as streetcar systems converted their two-man cars to one-man.
The last line in Baltimore to have Two-man crews was the 26 line to Sparrows Point, where the Bethlehem Steel Company had the largest tidewater steel plant in the world. The traffic at shift change was so heavy that MU trains were used until after World War II. In the early 1950's the traffic was still heavy, but PCC cars were introduced in 1952, replacing the MU semi-convertibles. PCC's (except for CSL, PE, Illinois Terminal and a few cars in Philadelphia) were strictly one-man. In other words, OPTO.
Speaking of Anti-OPTO movements, I remember a while back finding writings on trains on the B line: "OPTO kills!", etc. I also saw on a signal just south of the Bronx Park East station "OPTO makes me sick!" Some people just don't like OPTO.
Some streetcar lines in Chicago became OPTO in later years. All of their prewar PCCs were converted to one-man operation in 1952 along with a few dozen postwar Green Hornets. You can still see evidence of this on IRM's Blue Goose #4021. There is a body panel where the second center exit door used to be, and the space for the door engine is still visible. Green Hornet 4391 OTOH, remained a two-man car. Cottage Grove and Western were OPTO routes during their final years, and because of cost savings brought on by OPTO, the Western Ave. route returned to weekend streetcar service when all other remaining routes were substituting buses on weekends. The last two routes, Broadway-State and Clark-Wentworth, used two-man PCCs until the end of operation.
You know, if you go back in the archives of several of the musuems, you will find that many of the anti-OPTO arguements are exactly what was said in the 1920's and 30's as streetcar systems converted their two-man cars to one-man.
The last line in Baltimore to have Two-man crews was the 26 line to Sparrows Point, where the Bethlehem Steel Company had the largest tidewater steel plant in the world. The traffic at shift change was so heavy that MU trains were used until after World War II. In the early 1950's the traffic was still heavy, but PCC cars were introduced in 1952, replacing the MU semi-convertibles. PCC's (except for CSL, PE, Illinois Terminal and a few cars in Philadelphia) were strictly one-man. In other words, OPTO.
Just weekends. Read the FAQ.
does anyone know what service will run in the new tunnel at 63rd st
when it is complete?
I know, but I'm not telling :-)
Seriously, nobody knows because the plan isn't finished yet! About once every couple of weeks, somebody asks this question. There isn't an answer yet...when there is, you can be sure that SubTalkers will be among the first to know.
David
["About once every couple of weeks, somebody asks this question."]
Also, every so often, somebody offers what purports to be THE official answer.
Not only has the plan not been finalized, but even the "final" plan could always change AFTER implementation. (Such things have been known to happen.)
The only plan that I heard of, and this was some time ago. Was to re route the F through the 63 Street conection and have J Trains operate through the Crystie Street Conection, up 6 Avenue, 53 Street and Local to 179 Street. Cutting the G service back to Court Square perminatly. No changes to the E And R Service. M Trains to operate to Broad Street at all times except during rush hour, when service would be extended to Bay Parkway.(If they decide not to cut the Nassau Street Service through the Montague Street Tunnel perminatly.) and Chambers Street on the weekend. Rush hour Z Trains to operate between Eastern Parkway and Broad Street (Chambers Street should M service to Bay Parkway be eliminated.) The J service to operate Express Stops Only betwwen Eastern Parkway and Marcy Avenue during the peak direction in rush hour. B service to operate along Broadway to 57 Street except during Midnight hours where service operate to 36 street + 4 Avenue. There are variations to this plan. By the time they get around to opening the connection, the T.A. would likely come up with something totally different.
No, wait. I heard that the A,B, Q, 3, SS, MJ and the Nassau St loop trains will all provide service through 63rd. St. In fact, every line will be rerouted through 63rd. St to satisfy every railfan's fantasy service plan.
sarcasm mode: OFF
It would not surprize me as to what will end running through that connection.
LOL
Yes. Everything will be running through 63rd. St. All trains will be running express and local, and service begins at midnight tonight.
Kind of like BMT standard 2779 at Ocean Parkway, eh? There's a photo in Subway Cars of the BMT with that car sitting almost sideways in that station, having taken out just about everything in its path.
Yeah, I know that picture. Gotta love the caption: looks like the station got the worst of it.
I would not be surprise if the Q is express from 179-Brighton Bch via 63. 7 days a week. But we do not what will happen..............
BM34x
There is no definitive answer yet. Currently, the plan is to extend the Q to either Continental Ave or to 179th St.
Pros:
Parallel 6th Avenue Service through Manhattan- One Lcl. & one Exp.
Con:
Redundant service
requires 140 cars or 14 trains which are currently not available.
Stay tuned for further details.
As I said before, it's a perfect chance to give the Redbirds an 18-month reprieve until enough R-143s arrive to fulfill the needs of the extended Q service. Move the `birds over to the B division as the 142s come in, adjust the trip cocks, put platform extenders on them and use them for rush hour-only service on some of the less-heavily used lines. Take the extra trains that had been used during AM/PM rush and use them to suppliment the Q to Continental or 179th St.
It would be a flashback in time to when the Low Vs were outfitted with extenders for use on the Culver Shuttle in 1959. And going a little while with narrow trains during rush hour makes more sense than finishing up the 63rd St. tunnel later this year and then waiting until 2002 to use it fully because of a shortage of B Division rolling stock.
12 R-36s = 600 feet. 12 Car Trains on the Q line. Let's see - 3 door openings per car X 12 cars = 36 openings per train-side. 60 foot cars have 4 per side X 10 cars = 40 openings per train-side. It might slow down the line & I doubt that it would be seriously considered by senior management but it is an interesting thought.
Let's see the 75-footers are:
3 door openings per car x 8 cars = 32 openings per train side.
Doesn't senior management consider these and advantage - fewer moving parts?
Actually, you are incorrect about that too. The R-44, R-46 and R-68 have single door operators so 4 openings = 8 door panels = 8 door operators. At the same time, the R-32s have 5 operators for 8 panels. More door panels = less dwell time all the time. More parts = more breakdowns only when they fail. Your argument here is way below your usual standard.
I think you meant 4 door openings per car x 8 cars =32 openings per train side.
avid
I suppose if the R-62s are headed over to the Flushing line, you grab some of the R-33WFs and create 11-car trains for B division rush hour use, which would give you 11 x 3 = 33 doors per side, still short of the 60-footers door total but in line with eight 75-foot trains.
Of course, there would be certain posters of the swine persuasion on this board that would squeal over keeping the R-33WFs in service, but we'd be talking about a problem two months out of the year and only during rush hour.
And only until something better came along.
Yes, only until there are enough R-143s to make up the 14 train deficit Train Dude says will occur if the Q runs through 63rd St. to Continental and/or 179th St. Once the 143s arrive in a couple of years, the modified B Division Redbirds would go to the scrapper.
Also, if they were used only during rush hours on the Eastern Division, you would only need eight- or nine-car trains (hello, R-33WF), since a 10-car train of Redbirds wouldn't fit in the 480-foot long stations.
510' trains (10 redbirds) can operate on every single eastern division BMT line except the M north of Myrtle, because the Metropolitian Ave. terminal platform was shortened to 480' when it was rebuilt 15 years ago. All other stations are 530' - 550' long.
10% fewer openings but also x% fewer passengers due to the narrower width?
See! They shouldnt have gone scrap-happy in 1990 and 1993! Numbskulls! Despite the lack of A/C the overhauled R10 and R30 would certainly have made up for this gap.
Perhaps if they factor the 216 R143's into the picture...
Wayne
The order of R-143s, with the option cars, will certainly make up the defecite. However, that does not take into account the planned scrapping of the 196 R-38s, 10 R-32s and about 100 R-40S.
Answer: run em till they fall apart.
They would have had to do some wheel turning on the R-10s, if the excruciating noise level on some of them was due to flat spots. You're right, though: they could have been mothballed.
I don't quite figure your arithmetic there. The same maximum number of express trains during the morning rush, per hour, is 27, regardless of whether it is composed of E and F or E or Q trains. That means that the difference would be for the local. If I understand correctly, the G has 6 trains per hour in the morning rush. It would be cut to Court Square, probably reducing the need to 4. It would be replaced, say by the F (running as local) which might require up to perhaps 8 during the hour. That's a net of 6 extra trains per hour, or max. 9 for an hour and a half of the morning rush. How do you get 14?
Well let's see. Q now goes to 21 St. LIC. It will be running out to 179th St. If you are going to maintain the same headway, then you need more trains. Operations-Planning puts that number at 14 more trains. I am not sure how they calculate it but their numbers for every other line work.
Interesting. Maybe Operations Planning means 14 more Q trains for running express from Jamaica-Hillside Av in the morning rush. But then 2 less would be needed on the G. Also, only 8 or 9 for an F local (10 minute headways, via 63rd St. 24/7), surely less than needed now for the F express (4-5 minute headways).
This scheme (Q running express in all 3 boroughs, 16/7?) would be great for railfans and more importantly, good for commuters and possibly for the MTA as well. The only possible stumbling block, in my estimation, is related to half the Manhattan Bridge being closed. This is because of the increased number of southbound Qs needed for the morning rush that would share the downtown express track (probably on Broadway, as the switching of M.B. sides apparently will happen soon) with the D and the West End. But there would be ways of getting around this problem, too.
Easiest way to calculate the 14 train number:
Take the time it takes to travel, making local stops, from Queensbridge to 179th St., and divide that time by the shortest headway (6 minutes on the Q,during rush hour). Basic math.
so by your math 27 minutes (21st - 179th St.) divided by 6 minutes (headway) = 14 trains. Hey Chris, that works great, and it's basic math too. Gee I guess I missed short division.
I failed to add the amount of time a train would take to go OOS at 179th until the time it goes back in service Manhattan-bound. Plus you'd have to add a safety margin should a train or two need to be taken out of service. And remember, since trains will be needed to travel in both directions, the number would have to be doubled. So, if we add 9 minutes to turn a train around at 179th, (36) then divide by 6 (6), multiply by 2 account for trains in both directions (12), then add 2 trains for a safety margin, you come up with 14. Sorry for the confusion.
HAHAHAHAHA, Sounds like the math I learned at Brooklyn Tech. We called it Fenagle's Law. Get the answer and then make the facts fit. Actually, I'm not sure about the 14 number. The 14 represents the number of Q trains that would need to be layed up in Queens every night and not necessarilly the number of trains that would be added to Q service. That number could be more or less. The real issue was whether to add additional trackage in Jamaica Yard (25 tracks to be exact) or to lay the 14 trains up on D3 & D4 south of 71st Ave. Sorry if I unintentionally misled anyone.
[HAHAHAHAHA, Sounds like the math I learned at Brooklyn Tech. We called it Fenagle's Law. Get the answer and then make the facts fit]
At high school we had Zimmermann's constant (Z) , you added multiplied etc. it with the incorrect result you got to get the right answer. I have to add that the teacher was not one of the brightest.
Arti
At Brookhaven National Labs we call it ( + or - the fudge factor)being any value needed to meet your requirements .
avid
When visiting Chernoble, I foud they are more precise, and take what ever they get, the first time and it is cast in concrete
(Humour)
avid
Fenagle's Law sounds vaguely familiar, but it has been 31 years since I graduated there. No doubt, Brooklyn Tech was the best school in the city for learning how to ride the subways. But for that two stiff prices had to be paid: no girls and machine shop.
Anyway, let me try to remember freshman algebra with Mr. Sam Cohen (who taught there since the school's founding to about 1966-7, 45 years I think).
E + F = 27 express trains per hour in morning rush, now
E + Q = 27 express trains per hour in morning rush, come 08/01 (possibly).
If E is constant, then F now = Q then.
In other words, the number of trains added to the Q (exp. via 63rd) are subtracted from the F. No net of additional trains.
But F (possibly) will go local (via 63rd) to Forest Hills. Say 10 trains per hour (per direction) (6 min. headway). It will replace G which has 6 trains per hour (per direction) (10 min. headway). That's a net of 10 per hour - 6 per hour = 4 per hour. Figure two directions, x 1-1/2 hours of rush and add to the figure Cris' comment that two extra are needed for turn-around. What does that leave us with?
If I got this problem wrong, Sam Cohen, if still alive, I am sure would have some choice words for me. I won't quote him.
31 years ago? God that makes ne feel old since I graduated 33 years ago along with several other sub-talkers. Sounds like we could have a Brooklyn Tech reunion here.
I wish I could join you, but I dropped out of Tech.
-Hank
That doesn't make you a bad guy. Where did you end up?
Curtis, in St. George. I graduated only 6 months late (I was class of '93 at Tech), (despite the school's screwup) and took 4 years of college before deciding I'd be better off at this point working. A good student, I wasn't.
-Hank
That's basically what I did. I just wanted to show the logic behind the TA's 14 train figure.
The other day, I was watchin THe Pick-up Artist, and near the end, you see both Robert Downey Jr.'s character (Jack Jericho) and Molly Ringwald's character (Randy Jensen) going into, what looks like a Coney Island subway station. In that scene, the 2 are being mugged by a guy who starts singing "Blue Suade Shoes." Jericho joins him in singing the song, and the 2 escape. Now my question is - does anybody know where that is exactly? Is that the Stillwell Ave station or was that some other station around there, because I've been to Coney Island thousands of times (usually take the Culver line, living in Jackson Heights,) and I know that there's no subway station in Coney Island. Anybody know? Tanx.
"Broadway Jorge" Catayi
Can anyone give me some post-1943 information about what are now Chicago's Purple, Brown and Yellow Lines?
Thanks.
Purple was north shore lakeshore route to Waukegan It is now a howard to Evanston shuttle with Peak express service to the loop.
Yellow was North shore skokie valley route to Milwaukee, with some CTA local service between Howard and Demster. (the yellow, SKOKIE SWIFT now is non stop from dempster to howard.)
I think the Brown was and still is the ravenswood.
The Purple line is/was the Evanston Express, which used to be more of an express than it is now. At one time, it ran nonstop between Howard and Merchandise Mart, but since it shared trackage with Ravenswood trains from the Loop to Belmont (and still does), trains would often have to stop between stations. Some years ago, Belmont and Fullerton were added as station stops, and nowadays, Purple line trains make all stops from Belmont south. One nice improvement has been the rebuilding of Addison station from having outside platforms to a center island platform. In this way, Red line trains stay on the inner tracks north of Belmont, while Purple line trains have the outer tracks all to themselves. During non-rush hours, Purple line trains operate as a shuttle between Howard and Willmette (sp).
The Yellow line, as previously mentioned, is the Skokie Swift which operates during rush hours over a remnant of the North Shore's Skokie Valley route. It came into being in 1964, a year after the North Shore line went out of business, and still uses overhead catenary while the rest of the L uses third rail.
A few more details on these operations:
From November 3, 1913 to February 22, 1931, Ravenswood was through-routed with the Kenwood Branch. On February 23, 1931, the base service became Ravenswood-Loop only, with some rush hour trips through-routed with Englewood and Normal Park. Upon opening of the State Street subway on October 17, 1943, all Ravenswood service was through-routed with Englewood and Normal Park via the subway. This continued until July 31, 1949, when Ravenswood trains once again operated only as far south as the Loop via the "L."
Evanston was through-routed with Jackson Park from November 3, 1913 to July 31, 1949, with additional trips operating only between Howard and Jackson Park beginning in 1919. Through operation was via the subway from October 17, 1943. In the July 31, 1949 service rearrangement it switched to its present pattern, with a base shuttle service between Howard and Linden supplemented with rush hour express service to the Loop. In the 1950's there were also some mid-day Evanston Shopper's Special runs to the Loop.
The Niles Center line operated only as a shuttle between Howard and Dempster through its relatively brief life, 1925 to March 26, 1948. Confusingly, some Jackson Park-Howard or Jackson Park-Evanston trains did carry head signs listing Niles Center as a destination; but this always involved an across-the-platform transfer at Howard. The North Shore continued to use the same trackage (without making the local stops)until January 21 1963; and the CTA's Skokie Swift was inaugurated over the line on April 20, 1964. Even during the fifteen months when there was no revenue service on the line, the eastern half continued to be used for equipment moves to and from CTA's Skokie Shops.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Why are Evanston trains not through routed with Howard-Dan Ryan trains during off hours then?
Tradition, I guess - they weren't through routed when I lived there in the late '70s either, back when the line went to Jackson Park.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It doesn't make a lick of sense to terminate one train where another begins and continues down the line. This happens with yellow and red trains too, but that's for obvious reasons.
Red line trains are have more cars. The two shuttles Purple and Yellow use short trains to feed the red line where there is cappacity Howard is also a moajor north side bus hub.
So, run extended purple trains instead of some red line trains. The rest of the red trains would still go to Howard.
Well, IIRC there are platform length issues in Evanston that would make this a problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IIRC, the platforms in Evanston can accommodate 6-car trains while Red line platforms can handle 8-car trains.
I believe you're right. It's been too long since I've ridden them to remember for sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Yellow line, as previously mentioned, is the Skokie Swift which operates during rush hours over a remnant of the North Shore's Skokie Valley route. It came into being in 1964, a year after the North Shore line went out of business, and still uses overhead catenary while the rest of the L uses third rail.
Actually, when the Skokie Valley Route opened (1923, I believe) until 1950, L train shuttles operated between Howard and Niles Center (now the Dempster St/Skokie station) with several intermediate stops. L service was re-instituted as the non-stop Skokie Swift in 1964 after the North Shore Line stopped running about 1 1/2 yrs. earlier.
For a more detailed history, see Chicago ''L''.org
-- Ed Sachs
Thanks. I stand corrected.
Two things I saw yesterday while riding the R5 to Doylestown.
1) A new mosaic depicting the Philadelphia Museum of Art is being installed at the rear wall of the Regional Rail ticket/waiting area below the tracks.
2)While waiting for the crews to change at Suburban Station, I was surprised to see a blue SEPTA diesel #60 hauling ballast. We followed it up to Temple and I assume it went to Wayne Junction and Roberts Yard.
I actually haven't seen anybody mention it, which surprises me.
When the summer pick starts in the IRT (tentatively scheduled for June 4), weekday rush Bronx thru-express service will change. In the AMs, southbound 5 trains from Dyre Ave will make all stops from E. 180 to 3rd Ave. Southbound 2 trains from White Plains Rd will run express from E. 180 to 3rd Ave. In the PMs, this will be reversed, ie northbound trains will run express. No official word on what 5 trains from 238 will do, but they will PROBABLY also run local. This change will hopefully reduce congestion at E 180, as 2 trains will no longer be held while 5s cross their track to get into M Track.
The 5 White Plains service will also be Express.
That would be obvious because the 238th Street 5 trains parallel the 2 trains in the Bronx from that point south.
AFter the changes occur let's see how long it lasts before politics comes into play and it gets changed back.
Well, I'm glad the MTA has finally decided to do this. What took them so long to finally make this switch? I hated waiting for the 5 to cross in front of my 2 train, which already took forever because it makes so many stops in the Bronx and Harlem. Making the 2 express in the Bronx will make it faster.
I have been noticing two small television sets on some platforms on the Lexington Avenue lines.
These sets are in this box like structure and can be found either in the middle or the beginning of the platforms.
One place you can see them is at the beginning of the Jackson Avenue platform of the Northbound 2/5.
Does anybody know what those tv sets are used for? I figure they maybe CCTV, but for what reason and why only on some platforms? Thanks.
They're also at Brighton line and 6th Ave express stations.. I have often wondered what they were for also..
ian
I don't believe this was asked.
[Does anybody know what those tv sets are used for? I figure they maybe CCTV, but for what reason and why only on some platforms?]
I was simply stating that I wondered the same thing.
ian
There are also TV sets showing local news on platforms at Port Washington and Great Neck.
Never been able to figure out why, because the train noise renders it impossible to hear. Looks like more money down the old drain...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The ones at Babylon and sometimes Mineola and Hicksville tend to have the volume surge up about 30 seconds before the train arrives. It would make more sense if the volume would go up as the train was actually entering the station.
Occasionally I have seen the TV screens at Mineola show delays announcements after an automated NBC style chime followed by "May I have your attention please." Then it shows the information on the screen (which you can never see due to the glare from the sun. If it is in front of you, the sun is in your eyes. Behind you, it reflects.)
When this happens there usually is no announcement over the PA, and people have no idea what is going on due to the low volume of the TVs.
[There are also TV sets showing local news on platforms at Port Washington and Great Neck.
Never been able to figure out why, because the train noise renders it impossible to hear. Looks like more money down the old drain...]
Ronkonkoma too. Usually you can't hear a thing, but every so often the volume suddenly increases about 5000% and practically leaves you deaf.
Are you talking about the conductor's screens? There are cameras along the platform that are shown on the screens, so the conductor knows when to close the doors on curved and/or crowded platforms.
I guess that is what they are. It's strange. At Jackson Avenue they are at the beginning of the platform - I'm not sure if they are also at the middle of the platform.
I guess the motorman would need to get a clear view of the station platform also. This platform is pretty straight and doesn't get anymore crowded than the other stations. Perhaps they are testing the system at this particular station.
OPTO lurks in the wings...
Have you seen the platforms at these stations? Their either curved, or make a dip. It's a CCTV system that allows the conductor and sometimes the motorman to see that the doors are clear and the train can proceed on a limited-visibility platform such at 34st/6th Ave IND, South Ferry, Union Square, etc.
-Hank
At some stations, like Woodhaven/Queens Blvd, there are two boxes like this. The reason? G trains and other 8 (60') car length trains use one, and R trains and other 10 car length trains use another. I also see them at Smith & 9th Streets station.
5x60=300, 4x75=300
Wouldn't the center of an 8 car R-46 train and a 10 car R-32 train be in the same place?
I think that the second set of TV's would be for shorter G trains with 6 or 4 cars/OPTO.
It seems to me that R-40's are different, though. The conductors always use the alternate compartment than the T/O's. I always wondered about that. Someone enlighten me.
dave
No door controls in the cab at the slant end of an R40. No propulsion and brake controls in the square end cab.
Doesn't that offset the conductor from the stop markers by sixty feet?
So the conductor can see parts of the platform that are out of view easily. They have them at Wall Street on the J/M/Z heading to Queens for this reason.
Many congrats to 3 new Trolley Car Operators who are also SubTalkers, passed their road tests on 4/1, Doug aka BMTMan, Mr. t. and Lou from Brooklyn.
Now, I know that I will have to fight for the brake handle. Gosh darn it! Do I have to share the handle?
Just Kidding.
Cheers,
Stef
Actually there were nine in the class, 8 passed. If you qualifiy as a "pilot" you can stand next to me while I've got the handle ;-)
Mr t
If I were interested, in the upcoming months, in hitching a ride up to the Shoreline Trolley Museum from NYC, preferably the Queens area. Anyone willing to give a potential volunteer and fellow Subtalker a lift on a regular basis, assuming my upcomig job permits?
I don't have a car unfortunately, or you'd be riding with me. I too need to hitch a ride, but may be Mr. t or Doug aka BMTman can help.
Worst case scenario, you can always grab Metro North up to NH and take a cab or bus.
-Stef
I have the wheels but not the time. Working 6 days a week is not exacly my cup of tea. Damn computers!!!
Congrats to all of you! I only wish that my March schedule had permitted me to join the class ... but for better or worse that's my annual vacation to see my grandsons and as much as I love trolleys I love those boys more!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was looking through the R27/R30 pages and found a picture of R30 8357 in the Coney Island yard. (http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r2730/r30-8357.jpg) Parked next to it was an MBTA PCC car, number 3204! Does anyone know what this car was doing there? The picture is dated 10/13/79, a time when the MBTA was still using PCCs on the Green Line. Was this car being stored there for some reason? It looks to be in pretty good shape at the time of the photo. Perhaps it was there for some sort of event? Anyone with a clue as to what this car was doing in NYC, please post!
It was stored for the Trolley Museum of New York (Kingston NY).
Three MBTA PCCs were stored at Coney Island temporarily before being moved to Kingston. See http://www.mhrcc.org/tmny/tmnymbta.html.
That's a great picture. Since there's no trolley pole or wire there did they rig it to use the 3rd rail or did they just push/pull it there?
These cars have not been operated since they left Boston. They were moved to Kingston by flatbed truck. They will need a substantial amount of work to be made operable again. The trucks and undercarriage have bad rust from road salt.
The trucks and undercarriage are not usually the problem areas on these cars. Far more insidious are the posts running up the side of the car between windows. These are spot welded to the side sheets, leaving spaces between the posts and sheets where rust could form. Leaks through the roof monitor added to the problem. Consequently the side sheets buckle and the windows distort and even crack. This is more evident in the all electrics than in any other class. On the other hand, the battery box is below the floor and isolated from the main frame so the sagging rear end found on most Boston PCC cars doesn't happen to these. All of these cars left Boston in fairly good condition. With a good inspection, new batteries, cleaning of low voltage contacts, lubrication and some TLC they should be able to be made operational. We did it with 3127 at Seashore - the all electrics wouldn't be too much more difficult.
Contributions of manpower and money welcome. :-) TMNY has several cars which need basic stabilization done urgently. There are also a number of cars still off-site that need to be moved, which will strain the museum's resources.
Today's NY Times (www.nytimes.com) is reporting that business leaders, financial analysts and others have concluded that the proposed MTA capital plan would be a financial disaster, and leave the transit system with BOTH higher fares AND a return to deferred maintenance and decline a-la the 1970s.
At least people have caught on before the deed was done.
I too am glad to see that the plan's weaknesses have been exposed. That's the good part. The bad part is that no one seems to have any alternative ideas _other_ than having the taxpayers cough up more and more $$$. Absolutely nowhere in the article was there the barest mention of private financing for the expansion plans. True, the scope of the plans might make government $$$ unavoidable, but it would have been nice to hear even some discussion of alternatives.
(The bad part is that no one seems to have any alternative ideas _other_ than having the taxpayers cough up more and more $$$).
Just remember, transporation is one area where New York spends LESS than the rest of the U.S. Throw in contractors that get MORE, and you see we have a problem.
Transit is capital intensive(duh!). The likelihood that the capital needs will shrink sigificantly is zilch. The sham that bonds (or any other securities) can ever be repaid out of fares is a 19th century fantasy. The real question is what can be done to extract the money from the upstate pork barrelers.
(What can be done to extract money from the upstate pork barrelers).
The only way that will ever happen is as part of a deal to eliminate the downstate pork barrellers as well. Sadly, the opposite deal seems to hold.
Just when you thought you've heard it all, Steven Speilberg, -- impressed with the Daily News coverage of our beloved R-9 cab owner -- has bought the rights to the heypaul story.
Mr. Cruise, the first actor signed, at a press conference was quoted as saying, "I've had some challenging roles in the past where I've played a race car driver, pool shark and international spy, but I find portraying this math tutor somewhat more intriguing. He's a character that the common man can related to, and at the same time there is this unusal angle to the role because he has part of a subway train in his apartment. This could be my most challenging role of my career."
Filming is due to start sometime in late 2000.
Doug aka BMTman
P.S. HAPPY BELATED APRIL FOOLS!!!!!!!!!
doug--- i personally do not like the choice of tom
cruise to play me--- i would rather have maurice
gosfield (aka pfc dwayne doberman), but he is
unavailable due to death--- i noticed that there is
no response to either of our april fool's posts
doug... i think we're too good for this place... why
waste good material on an audience that's more interested
in the musical tones of the r-142's
Yes Tom Cruise will play the part ,but dies in the firt scene when he steppes on a very fresh,very tacky piece of chewing gum on an R/33 going into retirement and parked at the far end of the Flushing meadow yard and forgotten.At the end of the movie he is postumoously awarded the Polish National Hide & Seek Award and his Mummified remains are Displayed on top of the Information Booth at G.C.
The End
Ps In a cameo part the real Heypaul is seen gettig into a stretch limo in front of MTA headquaters on Madison Avenue.
LOL!!!
Sounds like a great Speilberg ending to me! :-)
Entertainment Tonight has reported that 'Heypaul: The Movie' is budgeted at $35 Million, with $20 million of that going to catering fees alone. Another $8 million has been promised to Mr. Cruise, leaving a whooping $7 million for actual filming of the life and times of Mr. Kronenberg.
A cast of thousands (mostly unknowns) has been assembled, with many being homeless people randomly rounded up and promised new refrigerator boxes if they appeared in the movie as extras.
Doug aka BMTman
The word is out "Heypaul" will host his own "Cooking with Heypaul" featuring "Card Board Jungle " recipies. Guest visitor will bring there own or improvised utinsiles, substitue ingrediants and party favors.
The trend will be toward Subway car emptying , gaseous dishes for under $.75. He will tour the world seeking the perfect menu to meet all the strict standards of slug worshiping cultures thriving in autoreclaimtion centers in all major cities.
His book "Extra Chunky Gravey and Bisquets" is now on Sale Farms and Ignoble. If you hurry , you can still make the Book Singhing!
avid
With those catering fees the PASTRAMI had better be good.
Peace,
Andee
I'm sorry but pastrami is obsolete. We urge you to switch to FoodTM brand Futurami meat like product.
I was leaving the Hunters Point Avenue LIRR station, recording sounds. After I left, I noticed a closed subway entrance next door to 2100 49th Avenue. (BTW, the open entrances are across the street.) Any info on this closed entrance?
Before the present IRT Flushing Line was constructed, there was a trolley turnaround loop in that area. Wonder if that closed entrance is part of it ....
--Mark
Maybe that closed entrance connects to the closed entrance at Essex Street, the site of another former trolley turnaround loop.
That would be a loooooooong walk!
Walk? No! The trollies run between the two terminals!
Nope ... I've been in the Essex St trolley terminal and didn't see any connecting passageway :)
--Mark
a native new yorker told me that a 5 day tourist unlimited use subway pass could be attained for a flat rate.. i just wanted to know if it was true. anyone?
[a native new yorker told me that a 5 day tourist unlimited use subway pass could be attained for a flat rate.. i just wanted to know if it was true. anyone?]
It's a 7-day unlimited pass, and costs $17.
There's also a one-day unlimited pass for $4 and a 30-day for $63.
do i purchase these passes at a booth? and what exactly do i ask for? 7 day tourist subway pass?
You ask for 7 day an unlimited ride Metrocard. They are on sale in token booths, in Metrocard machines, and in many hotels.
And they're not just for tourists.
There are no tourist passes !!!!
The is a 'Fun Pass' go from first use until Midnight the same day (available only from Metrocard vending machines)
There is also a 7 day unlimited which expires at midnight the 1 week later after the first swipe (swipe on Monday and the card expires at midnight the following Sunday). Available at all token booths and vending machines !!!
Enjoy the visit !!!
[The is a 'Fun Pass' go from first use until Midnight the same day (available only from Metrocard vending machines)]
Please don't mind a little nit picking on my part ... the one day Fun Pass, which is just a internal name, is good until 3 AM the next day. The 7 day & monthly unlimiteds expire at midnight, so hold on to you golden slippers. The point being that you'll almost never get the full 24 hours, they add 3 AM so you don't have to buy a second to get home.
P.S. There is also a "Single Ride" ticket for 1.50, but that's only go for two hours, so be careful at the machines.
Mr t__:^)
[Single ride tickets]
What is What do you get when you mix a token with a bus transfer?
ICYDK, that was Jeopardy! themed. Now, the explanation.
Bus transfers expire in 2 hours, so do the single ride tickets.
No Subway-Bus or vice versa transfers, just like bus transfers.
They can be used in either the subway or the bus, just like tokens.
Regis, that's my final answer!
The Fun Pass is also available from newsstands and other off-system vendors.
Another message mentions how and where you buy the 7-day passes. The one-day passes ("Fun Passes") are available at newsstands and at MetroCard vending machines found in many subway stations, but they are *not* sold at token booths.
[The one-day ..."Fun Passes" ... but they are *not* sold at token booths.]
Right you are, but they sell another kind of fun pass for $1.50, it's called a TOKEN and doesn't ever expire, until used that is.
This person isn't ever going to ask us another question ?
Mr t__:^)
One of the catches in the Metrocard system is that the Metrocard vending machines generally deliver plain Metrocards, with no identifying wrapping. Sometimes a rider with several cards in his pocket needs to remember which card is 1-day, which card is per ride. The outsider arriving in Grand Central might try the transit museum store (located adjacent to Metro North's small waiting room at the west end of the main concourse), where all Metrocards are sold with identifying wrappers. If one arrives in Penn Station, Fun Passes (and the other cards, too) are generally available in their wrappings at any Hudson News stand. If I buy a Metrocard from a vending machine, I try to mark the back in some way to indicate its type.
You can get a receipt, it tells you the card you bought and it's serial number, but looking at receipts and checking serial numbers all the time isn't convenient.
I usually get mine from the MTA web site via credit card. It comes with a pass for the Subway Museum with each order. The funny thing about that, it comes from out of state....Texas.
Is is total incompetence or total indifference to the ridership when
1 - The sign at 14th and Lex northbound local platform STILL says
'Late nights take 4 to 125th ST for #6 on lower level. The number 6 started 24 hour operations in October
2 - Announcements on #4 and #5 on weekends at Brooklyn Brigde and Fulton say 'Change for J, M, Z when J and M aren't running
3 - Redbirds going north on Lexington still have the southbound destination signs showing after going around the loops.
4 - It took them over 6 months to correct the sign at the enterance to Bowling Green (Metrocad to Metrocard)
Im sure there are many, many other examples.
Its too bad that the offending parties can't be docked a few hundred dollars if they don't shape up.
23rd st station (local) has a sign about 5 trains to Pelham Bay.
I think it got installed when 6 started 24h operation.
Arti
Since this is not an official MTA NYCT Website, this may not be the most benificial venue to air your complaints. Why not call the NYCT directly? 1-718-330-1234
Done so may times I can't count !!
They say 'thank you' but then I think it ends up in the garbage.
They rarely listen to politicians, so a single passenger wont be listened to !!!!.
NONESENSE. Every time there is a customer complaint related to my operation, I have to thoroughly investigate it and write a detailed report about my findings and what action I took to correct it if applicable. Every customer complaint, unless anonymous, gets a written reply.
To Train dude-do you work for the TA ?
Yes I do. I work in the Department of Subways/Division of Car Equipment.
That's nothing! 63rd Drive had a sign at the west end of the Manhattan bound platform showing N trains to Coney Island and F local trains (I don't remember exactly what the times were for the F) until about 1997 or 1998.
Is is total incompetence or total indifference to the ridership when
1 - The sign at 14th and Lex northbound local platform STILL says
'Late nights take 4 to 125th ST for #6 on lower level. The number 6 started 24 hour operations in October
Complaining about a sign that hasn't been changed since October.... Boy are we spoiled these days ;-)))
Original IRT and BMT signage lasted well into the 1970's -- long after many of the service patterns had changed. I even vaguely recall signs directing people to the Second Avenue El -- 20 YEARS after it came down. Now we complain about the MTA failing to change signs in 4 months -- from my perspective THAT'S FAST!!!
Back in the days of David Gunn, who incidently rode the subways to work, nobody really demanded better of the TA. We had double letter signage for years after it was discontinued. I remember an EE sign at 59 and Lex as late as four years ago but no one cared. We now have a president who only seems to show up after a wreck or for a ceremony so they don't know what is going on but the supervisory force created under David Gunn which mushroomed into a supervisory force of over 5000 SHOULD know and act when something out of the ordinary is reported. So to answer your question, it is total incompetence. Maybe not total indifference if one could prove that our TOP managers do ride the subways to work. Why should elected and appointed officials really care anyway? They are charged with the management of the school system but don't trust their own work enough to place their own kids in it.
I think too much emphasis is placed on things like signage and announcements, because they are easy to measure, as opposed to service frequency, consistency, and speed, and crowding, which are more difficult to measure. The latter have improved.
Really? Then what's all this talk about the higher passenger load causing crowding and a resulting need for more cars?
I think a car shortage has affected some lines, but in general where there is crowding it's due to infrastructure issues.
1. Too many lines west of 5th Avenue, no Second Avenue Subway.
2. Manhattan Bridge deterioration; half the tracks out.
3. Queens Blvd line not connected to the 63rd St tunnel.
Crowding STILL isn't as bad as in the 1980s on the F, the A/C, and the IRT in Brooklyn. The only place I really see it is on the Brighton and the Lex. If they had carried out the orignial MTA plan, and made an intellegent decision about the Manny B in 1982, we wouldn't be in this situation.
There is no official car shortage. The division of car equipment is required to provide 547 trains daily. This is done without fanfare. Hence, no car shortage
(The division of car equipment is required to provide 547 trains daily. This is done without fanfare. Hence, no car shortage)
The term car shortage is used here in another sense. If the MTA decided it wanted to run 570 trains, could it be done withnout the arrival of the new cars? More specifically, could the number of B division trains be increased prior to the arrival of the R143s? My sense is, no. If there are additional cars available, I'm sure there would be lots of opinions as to where to put them.
With the current numbers and fleet sizes, some shops are on the cusp of discomfort when it comes to making service. Meaning that they are very close to max on their hold counts each AM. IF push came to shove, there are things every shop can do to push an extra train or two out into service. But, to address your hypothetical question, I doubt whether we could squeeze an extra 23 trains out every AM given the current fleet size.
Where would transit put all those cars? Track space is full as it is during the morning rush hour and during off hours they have enough trains laid up. In short new york has if anything too many cars
You MUST go to an additional car per trainto increase capacity!
Relocate the storage area stealing platform space that now denies the use of 660 ft 6th and 8th ave trains.
The ny merto area will grow , population WILL grow , Demand for transit will grow , Might as well let the current generation enjoy the benifits now ,of the enevidible..
Sounds like we need another yard, too.
It's easy to confuse apples and oranges. If you are talking about main line capacity for more trains,Some lines can handle more service. The 63rd St line will increase capacity on the Queens Blvd line, for example. Other lines could absorb shorter headways comfortably. Lest we restart the thread, the Lexington line is not one of them. As for storage for more cars, we know that space is not adequate but neither is it a priority. The land has been available for several years to add 25 tracks to Jamaica yard. This would eliminate the need for mai-line storage under current service needs or would hold the 14 Q trains scheduled to be layed up on Queens Blvd. plus 10 or 11 other e & F trains currently layed up on D-4 track north of Continental Avenue. We're about to find out how elastic our yards can be as Redbirds, as they are replaced by R-142s) are stored throughout the system and kept in readiness should the need arise. Concourse yard will be storing a minimum of 40 redbirds in addition to its normal compliment of A division, B division and C division cars.
BTW: Plans are in the works to move cars 1438 & 1440 to make room for the redbirds.
What's the C division?
C division is the division that governs the operation of work trains.
Post complaints about signage to nyc.transit--there's an MTA phantom there who gets these things fixed right away.
Last night on Fox I saw the most bullshit car ad on Fox. It shows a group of commuters riding a commuter train. From the looks on their faces it seems as if they would be rather eating cow dung. Then, on the freeway next to the tracks, drives up a guy in a red GM convertable. All the people in the train watch him as he drives next to the train, having the time of his life. Then the train enters a tunnel and the people look at eachother, all looking very depressed. The ad was about how a GM credit card can help you realize your "dream" of buying a GM car.
After seeing this I couldn't believe that with all the environmental impact, recent gas prices, insurance costs etc. GM is still up to its old tricks of trying to brainwash people to abandon transit and get on the roads. If the commercial had tried to be accurate the guy in the car would have been stuck in traffic, he would have been chokeing on exasut fumes from the truck in front of him (top was down) and there would be a hose, on one end connected to his wallet, on the other end connected to the gas tank, insurance agent, parking lot attendant and police officer. I just can't believe what bullshit this was.
Yup, this stuff still goes on. Remember the people waiting at a bus stop in the rain (with a passing car spalshing them) as the hot young chick gets in her entry level economy car (forget which one). The auto industry is so desperate they are even trying to lure the last few transit riders out of their car, with the "transit is for losers" theme.
That's why I try to keep my kids from watching much TV.
[Last night on Fox I saw the most bullshit car ad on Fox. It shows a group of commuters riding a commuter train. From the looks on their faces it seems as if they would be rather eating cow dung.]
I ride the LIRR. I'll take the cow dung any day.
OK, so why don't your drive instead?
[OK, so why don't your drive instead?]
If riding on the LIRR is like eating cow dung, driving on the Long Island Expressway during rush hour is like eating month-old, fermented, worm-filled pig* dung.
* = by "pig," I mean the kind with a curly tail that goes "oink oink." I don't mean the Royal Island kind.
YUMMMMEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!
Looks like I picked the wrong time to SubTalk and dine.
-Hank :)
I'm kind of surprised that an auto maker considers commuters a major market for a new car.
Out my way, people don't ride the commuter rail because it's cheap (it isn't) or because they don't have a car (they do--and parking it at the train station is one of the bigger hassles) or because they feel they're being environmentally sensitive (gimme a break).
They mostly ride because driving is too much a pain in the butt.
Subliminally, maybe GM is trying to convey the idea that localities shouldn't "waste" money on new commuter rail when every one really wants a new car instead.
[I'm kind of surprised that an auto maker considers commuters a major market for a new car.
They mostly ride because driving is too much a pain in the butt.
Subliminally, maybe GM is trying to convey the idea that localities shouldn't "waste" money on new commuter rail when every one really wants a new car instead.]
It would be interesting to find out what agency created that ad. My guess is that it was *not* based in NYC, as surely someone at the agency would have noted the point you mentioned and brought it to GM's attention.
ISTR that GM has or had a "captive" agency as part of its corporate structure and therefore effectively does at least some of its ads in-house. If so, it's easier to understand why GM came out with this particular ad. The company's headquarters in in Detroit, which along with Houston is one of the two major metropolitan areas in the United States that are completely without rail transit (unless you count downtown Detroit's People Mover as a form of transit, which is sort of stretching things). It's entirely possible that the people who created and approved the ad have as much knowledge of rail transit as I do of Bulgarian folk dancing.
Well, you know, car ads are always obnoxious. Consider the VW campaign:
"In the road of life there are passengers and there are drivers. Drivers wanted."
The commercials showed caffeine-crazed go-getters speeding like crazy.
Look at the assorted jabronies on the bus in "Speed." Sandy Bullock is the only passenger who looks like she can tie her own shoes.
That's the reality of what mass transit 'customers' are thought of in the ad inductry and in Hollywood.
www.forgotten-ny.com
(Transit passengers not well thought of)
The flip side is that lots of ads have shown people on the train recently, and that was only one to show transit travel in a bad light (there is the opera singing commuter out there as well).
Ten years ago, no one even showed people on a train. Because the advertizing industry is here, I get the feeling that the ads are showing transit to be more prominent than it is. You are also getting more people capable of buying a car living in urban environments than actually do.
(Of course, these commercials may only be shown in the NYC area, with others shown in other regions).
Re: the opera singing commuters. It's a Guinness commercial, and Irish/British/European companies are less likely to have the popular American perception of public transit.
I agree that this GM Credit commercial is the first I've heard of (haven't seen it) in a long time that was really anti-transit. I don't count the "only every eight minutes" apartment-by-the-elevated Burger King ad as being anti-transit.
"Ten years ago, no one even showed people on a train."
Everyone likes to make fun of all the twentysomethings-in-New-York shows on television, as they consist of self-centered characters living in much bigger apartments than anyone with their jobs could afford in reality. But, IMHO, at least they show "beautiful people" who don't have cars. The shows don't draw attention to the fact that the characters don't drive, but you wouldn't expect them to (they're entertainment, not social commentary) and at least they show characters popularly seen as "successful" not needing to own a car.
How about the ad showing so old lay enjoying the bikers breath. It was several years ago , but it occasionally pops up.
avid
I've enjoyed your breath ever since Ninety-sixth Street?
[Look at the assorted jabronies on the bus in "Speed." Sandy Bullock is the only passenger who looks like she can tie her own shoes.]
And remember, she was riding the bus only because her driver's license had been suspended for speeding.
Off topic: Speaking of Sandra Bullock, she's an excellent example of a once-big star whose career is sinking like the Titanic. Five years ago, she was one of the hottest "properties" in Hollwood. And today? If she doesn't land another big hit, and soon, she'll be a trivia question before the decade is out.
Well, Julia Roberts was on a cold streak for a long time, and now she's the biggest money maker in Hollywood...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sandy Bullock was also the star of "While You Were Sleeping", the 1995 CTA based romantic comedy
If you like Sandra Bullock, be sure to see "Who Shot Patakango". It could be her first movie. It may go in the record books as one of the worst movies ever made.
[If you like Sandra Bullock, be sure to see "Who Shot Patakango". It could be her first movie. It may go in the record books as one of the worst movies ever made.]
Even before that, in 1990 or thereabouts, Ms. Bullock (then a complete unknown) appeared in an ultra-low-budget turkey called "Fire on the Amazon." It was so bad, indeed, that the studio decided not to release it. Some years later, after "Speed" made Ms. Bullock a big star, the studio finally released "Fire on the Amazon" to video. Quite a flurry of interest soon developed because rumor had it that in a few scenes she appeared, as the French would say, deshabille. Yet legions of lusty video renters were disappointed. In none of these scenes did Ms. Bullock actually show, as the British would say, any naughty bits. During the filming she had placed flesh-colored tape over the aforementioned naughty bits just to make sure that there was no accidental exposure.
I suspect that Blockbuster, Hollywood Video, etc. no longer stock "Fire on the Amazon." Pity.
Didn't Sandra Bullock look great driving that GM Fishbowl? She can be my bus driver any day.
Chuck Greene
Do you mean she can be your BUS DRIVER, or do you mean she can DRIVE YOUR BUS?
-Hank :)
(Double-entedre pun should've been EXPECTED!)
Rim Shot!!!
cant some of you subtalkers not use such foul language like bull___!! tv car ad.
what about children and young people who use the internet and visit this forum ??
or do you even care ?.....!!!
Bovine scatology TV car ad.
This page is mostly for New Yorkers and I'm sure they are used to alot worse.
What I noticed from that ad is that the train looks fake.
The outside looks like it may be a subway car such as the R-32 or other model with corrugated sides under the windows. But the interior is obviously a mock-up. No subway cars look like that. I assume, of course, that the train was supposed to be from NYC since it looked like one from the outside.
sounds like exactly what they did to los angeles !! ............!
I think you are taking this ad way too seriously. GM is trying to inject a little humor into it's advertising, so what. Lighten up a bit. I don't think the point of the ad is that 'transit is for the slugs' but that you will enjoy yourself more in a GM product than on the railroad, subway, etc.
"but that you will enjoy yourself more in a GM product than on the railroad, subway, etc."
I know, that's the problem. They are saying that its better to commute in a GM product than in that stupid train. However, the ad failed to show all the realities of highway commuting and instead showed a guy flying along on an empty road. Well sure if I could get gas for $.75 and I had all the roads to my self I'd drive to, but in the real world driving sucks. This ad can only trick people into a life of misery and waste as they work for their car. Plus the ad was for the GM credit card that put %5 towards a new GM car. The ad implied that the ppl in the train could use this card because they were otherwise too poor to afford one. They are basically saying poor trash = transit, rich privilaged = car.
Driving is always better than a bus, except in an extremely parking deprived area like Manhattan. I don't live near a subway, my preffered method of commuting is drive, park on streets near subway express stop, take subway.
Buses scare me and I have no clue how the fare system works. I much prefer driving (or in my town walking or biking) and then riding the rails. BTW how do you reach the pedals and do you have a human mask so that people driving next to you won't freak out.
Actually, the Boarsheviks had a robot. I would climb in and my pig movements would be translated to the human like robot. However the head would still show, so that really SCARES people. The Boarsheviks are working on that. Since those bastards got rid of me, they constantly send pigs over to take back their robot, but I make believe I don't speak Oinklish and they go away. I would give it back to them, but the Organization of Independent Neutral Kentuckians which I know lard isn't as rich doesn't have these fancy robots. They can't even afford to finish building their office! We all telecommute. I hope to turn this around however, I mean it was I who brought prosperity to the Boarsheviks.
GM and the oil companies and others ripped out the rail systems we once had here in los angeles .!!
That's why it's >>>>LOST ANGELES<<<
Gee, I kinda liked that ad. I think I'm gonna buy that red convertible.
I saw in Septa's free paper this morning a writeup (in the Septa
section) about public hearings being held for service restoration to
Wawa on the (now) Media/Elwyn line.
Amazing - Septa restoring service. I feel myself getting faint... :)
On a sad note, the Newtown tracks have been paved over up in Newtown
about .2 miles from the end of the line at a crossing, and there's
some concrete structure being build in the middle of the tracks
that I'm guessing isn't a coal bin. *sigh*
I stopped by the terminus in West Chester to see what it looked like. Restoration of service would be great. I think some tourist line already runs on it and the wires are pretty much intact (saw some loose ends near the Rt. 202 bridge though). I'm sure they could get enough ridership to warrent the $$. Besides W. Chester the line directly serves Chaney College and the Wawa station is right off Rt. 1.
It won't be SEPTA's first extension. Keep in mind that the Airport line, Hatboro to Warminster, Media to Elwyn, West Manayunk to Ivy Ridge, Paoli to Thorndale, and (long ago) Fox Chase electrification all happened as a result of SEPTA's actions. We like to dump on SEPTA but it does a decent job sometimes.
What do you mean Hatboro to Warminster? The Reading did that and the Fox Chase extention to. Might have used some public funds, but the Reading was still in control. Also you can call Ivy Ridge an extention because it used to go all the way to Norristown and now it only goes to Cynwyd. Also remember back in 1994 when SEPTA went out all the way to Parksburg. I'd hardly call Thorndale an extention, its more like a re-tention. I don't mean to rag on your or SEPTA, but we should all realize that they cut more than they extended. I think that all things considered, SEPTA is doing a bang up job and is making a real turn-around. In the future I can see the West Chester line back open, same with the R8 line to that centre of sprall, Newtown (possibly with wires). I can also see restoration of service to Coatsville and Parksburg. Far in the future I can even see service to Reading (possibly using the PRR RoW to Noristown as its route. I can see it crossing a restored Flat Rock bridge and continuing on into Suburban Station. As a pipe dream I would like to see the R2 extended to Perryville and a link up with MARC. This would provide an Amtrak alternative to all those budget minded travelers on the NEC.
I certainly would enjoy a way to DC by avoiding Amtrak (cheap).
Didn't I hear something about service to Quakertown?
That's part of the study to reactivate the line off of the R5 at Lansdale.
SEPTA has also finally decided on a full commuter rail option ofr the Schuykill Valley Metro and is considering dual-mode engines for the line. You can find more information at the DVARP site.
I had the great pleasure of being back in NYC last week and riding
from Penn Station up to 57th & 7th on the R. I think it was an R44 I
was on (NY stencilled walls, 75', 4 door) and I noticed a very nice
mooing coming from the trucks. Did these have the old motor gearings?
Its an R46. R44 is on the A and C, R46 is on F, G, R, and occasionally the E.
R44's are not on the C. They are on the A and Rockaway Shuttle. If any 75 foot long cars run on the C, it would have to be the R46 cars from the G line. The cars that look anything like R-44 cars are the R110B cars.
R44's and R46's are virtually identical looking. The difference is that the R44 has a gray painted stripe down the length of the car, whereas the R46's exterior is completely bare stainless steel. Their braking systems make distinctivly sounds, and there are some minor interior cosmetic differences. Mechanically, they're quite different and are totally incompatible.
There were a few instances where R44 cars did run on the C, I think there was a post claiming that one such 8-car set of R44's did run on the C.
That post was quite a while ago, though.
Nick
Is the R-68 on the F at all?
No, but you'd think it would, seeing as how it has one of its two yards as Coney Island. Also, I wonder why R-46s aren't on the N, D, and Q. The digital signs can show N and D, since I saw such signs as N to Canal St. on the first 2 cars of a Jamaica bound R and D to Queens Plaza on a train leaving Jamaica Yard (before they fenced off the overpass over the Grand Central). I also saw the codes for these routes on the list inside the cab.
Then again, if the F ran R68s they would not be able to leave some at Jamaica overnight or on the Hillside exp tracks (go against concentration of fleet).
Subway cars are assigned to maintenance shops, not to yards. R-46s can be seen in Coney Island Yard (the part called "City Yard"), but they're not assigned to Coney Island Shop. The electronic signs on the R-46s (and R-44s) can display hundreds of readings, some of which will never be used (but they're there "just in case").
David
1,042 different messages (some 3 lines) to be exact.
... all of which were printed in various editions of NYD ERA's "Bulletin".
--Mark
Any way they can be made available on the net?
Since it's copyrighted material by the ERA, you'd have to ask them if they'd be willing to post it on their website.
--Mark
Unfortunately, we don't have a website at the moment, but we hope to have one up shortly (yes, I know I've said that before ).
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
That's a lot of messages. What sort of 3-line messages are there?
Queensbound F trains use a 3-line message.
F|to179 ST/QUEENS|
F| 6 AV LOCAL |
F| QUEENS EXPRESS|
In case you've never seen it, there it is.
Would "F CROSSTOWN LOCAL|F to179 ST/QUEENS" or "F CROSSTOWN LOCAL|F to CONEY ISLAND" happen to be one of them?
I remember seeing R-46 cars on the Q line once. This was a while back. Maybe the Q line didn't have enough R68 cars (which were running on the line at that time. R40 slants were still on the B).
I also saw an R46 set on the B back in 1995, for about a week.
A few years ago, there were a some R44/46 gap trains staged in a few locations for the PM rush. They were staged on various storage tracks in Manhattan. They were used on whatever line needed them: A/C for the R44's and B/D/E/F/N/Q/R for the R46's. After the rush, the trains were returned to Jamaica/Pitkin/207 to be in place for the next AM rush.
I did see one set of R46's signed up as a "D" train around the same time layed up on the Second Ave. stub tracks. It was there for several days.
The R-46s did run on the D line back in the early 80s, I think. They were removed because Brighton Beach residents complained of excessive vibrtion from their trucks (and replcaed with R-10s). Now with car fleets assigned to maintenence shops, it kind of makes sense that they don't run on the D line.
--Mark
Every R46 is assigned to the Jamaica Yard, and none to coney Island. Which is why all R46 cars run on the EFGR lines.
Mercifully, no.
Wayne
when they first came out I did catch 1 or 2 F's of r 68's but they were thenmoveed to where they are now
I remember once while I was waiting at the Lexington Av/53 St station, a short train of what I believe to be R68's. It sounded its horn and passed through the station. I don't remember what direction it was running. I do remember that there was no sign in the front. I saw the flourescent lights that light up the sign, but there was no sign there.
R68's on the F? Never saw it, and I don't think I will. Unless the R46's get scrapped and the R68's take their place.
THe R68 had a few cars assigned to the F in 1987. None since.
I once saw an 8 car train of R68s signed up as an "N" go through 71/continental ave. It went through the Jamaica Yard leads. I never saw it again.
Not since 1987
When I was a child in the 1960's, there was an abandoned train station at the northern end of the Bronx botanical gardens, where Mosholu Parkway begins. I do not know if it is still there, although it could be. Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks.
Well, the Botanical Gardens station is still there. There is, if I remember correctly, an abandoned station building there.
Besides the Metro North Botanical Gardens station, I've never heard of another Botanical Gardens station. Is there an abandoned New York Central railroad line anywhere near there? That's the only logical explanation I can think of.
Besides the Metro North Botanical Gardens station, I've never heard of another Botanical Gardens station. Is there an abandoned New York Central railroad line anywhere near there? That's the only logical explanation I can think of.
The March issue of the "Tripper" has a nice picture (although small) of Subtalkers as Spacemen. Stef, Thurston, Lou S and Lou L are all pictured during the R-17 steel dust clean-up. Stef, Is that you in the background, sitting down? With those spacesuit like outfits, it would be impossible to identify anyone.
Oh, I see you've been reading the Tripper haven't you old friend? Well yes, I'm sitting down in the background while Lou L. (Lou from Bklyn) looks positively extraterrestrial, Mr. t is at his side, and Lou S. is at the far left. This really was fan appreciaition day, PLAYING IN THE R-17 MUCK! We enjoyed the muck and got down and dirty with the axiflow fans which protrude from the car ceiling. I'd like to do more when possible.
I love the title of this post!!!!
-Stef
You know, the "Tripper" is a great way to keep up with what is going on up there when one can't be there in person. I look forward to it every month, but the US Mail really let me down by waiting till today to deliver the March issue. I wanted to tell you that it looks like all of 6688's lights are on in the picture, and the lenses are clean. I really would have thought that steel dust would have really been building up in those covers, because of that high pressure air that you were using.
Since I took that award-winning photograph, I can tell you that Mr. Jeff H. accidentally created Steff with being Lou Shavell, 3rd.
And yes, besides qualifying on trolley cars, Lou and Thurston have passed most of their NASA Space Shuttle training!!
Doug aka BMTman
You worked on the steel dust cleanup, did you have one of those outfits on when you took that picture? One never gets to see the photographer.
Yes, I can attest to wearing one of those "body condoms".
Doug aka BMTman
We all had the outfits. Unfortunately, mine was a little on the small side and I ripped mine up in a matter of minutes. It didn't matter though - I was wearing old rags so I continued on. The ultimate picture would have been me kicking the muck around, and for even more laughs, a picture of my face covered in grit. How do you like that? Even the project leader headed for the hills while I took a mouthful of dirt. Yuk! As bad as that sounds, I'm interested in going back up there and doing a little more work. Some repairs need to be made and maybe I can clean a little more around the 3rd and 4th fans when it is convenient. Did someone say we were wearing body condoms? Shame on you Doug!
Dougie was right. The son of Lou S. assisted us on this day and he rightfully deserves credit in the picture. That day I came late, due to errands that had to be run and couldn't be avoided.
-Stef
I just realized that we have never had an official Subtalk Chat. Now I know that the exulted Website Host does not like chats and probably won't provide a chat service here, but I still think we could make regulurly schedualed chats work. So first does anybody already have a chat room on one of their sites or does anyone know of another transit chat room that we could use. If the answer to both of those is "NO" then I know this kid who has an industrial strength (ie meant for large groups) chat room on his Conrail page. I forget the address, but he is always trying (in vain) to set up Conrail-Talk chats. I could send a few e-mails and "rent" it out for an evening if that is people here would actually come and chat.
Try the site with the BAHN message board. It is http://beseendb.looksmart.com/chat/. Also, we could set something up in AOL's People Connection for the AOL members. I have brought this idea up before.
The problem with AOL is that people have to sell their soul to the devil to participate in those chat rooms (selling one's soul to the devil is the same as joining AOSmell). Remember when I criticized WebTV? I would definitely join that before I join AOL.
I WOULD RIDE IN AN R-33 SINGLE EVERY DAY FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE BEFORE I WOULD JOIN AOL!
Well, If anyone wants one, I have a chat capable of holding 50 at any time. You first have to register your name with the server. It's at WWW.TALKCITY.COM
If anyone is interested, Mail me for the room name.
I wouldn't say I don't like chats. My bias against them is that there are so many chat systems out there, it is not worth the effort to install a special one here. I also don't think that a web browser is the optimal interface for real-time-chat. The only ones that really work are Java based and Java just blows, especially if you're behind a firewall. A chat on an IRC server I think would be a good idea.
Well most of the Java chats I've been in have worked fine. The one I was regering to was really no-frills and designed to accomidate large amounts of people. Due to a long and involved story I have vowed never to use ICQ or IRC.
SubForum has a chatroom if you've never noticed. I am unsure if membership is required, you don't need membership to read messages or post, so I assume the same is true of the chatroom.
My Dutch Forgotten Fans tell me that Canarsie's Varkens Hook Road means "pigs corner" or "corner where pigs are sold".
Make of that what you will.
www.forgotten-ny.com
That's where the Boarsheviks wanted to build their headquarters, since they were stupid enough not to re-elect me as Chairpig of the Board (that's BOARd), that deal fell through.
Don't worry about me though, I'm now the larder of the Organization of Independent Neutral Kentuckians.
So, that's why the PIGvolution has stalled
president of the transverse cab car club inc ...!!
One Pig Train Operation -- they need a roomy cab :->
100% total agreement !! you stole my thunder ( thanks )....
There is a gentlemen by the name of George Kelleher who is one of your fellow volunteers at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine. I had the distinct pleasure of having George as my guide at the Connecticut Trolley Museum in Windsor Locks 2 years ago. He was one of the nicest and most knowledgable guides that I ever encountered. Do you know if George plans to be at Windsor Locks again on Sundays this upcoming Summer ? If so I would like to make a return visit and encourage my fellow posters on this website to do likewise. I feel we can all learn a lot from this man.
KING SOLOMON
I agree George is an excellent guide. However I don't know of his plans for this summer. If I see him at Seashore I'll be sure to ask him.
I am typing on my daughter's computer at home so I got on this Website, but since Friday I have been unable to get on at my school where I wow my students with my historical brilliance. What is not so brilliant is the fact that I haven't a clue as to why I can't get on. All I do when I hit the Subtalk button is get something like ------Urel-- and a lot of mumbo jumbo that says my attempt didn't go through. When I tried to get on my colleague;s machine I did. What gives? Is their some way to get on? Was this site down for a time?Hey Dave Pirrmann, help me out. What gives? It's getting to me like Mission Impossible for me at school. Come on guys, someone out there give me an effort. I need to get back on in school. I'll look for some answers tomorrow on my E=Mail. Thanks for listening.
I am no expert but, it sounds like a firewall problem. Have you tried talking to your network administrator?
Peace,
Andee
I'm not sure what his problem is, but I've also been having a problem. Is it just a coincidence that Dave has been letting the number of messages on line grow (in response to expressions of interest in older messages being left on the system) and the system's response time has been slowing down noticeably. Maybe it's just that more of us are trying to get on at the same time. At any rate, since browser software will "time out" after a certain period without response, it is possible that the machine which can't get through has a time out setting in its browser options which is set too low to tolerate the slower response time.
Well, like I told you in email, without some more detailed error messages, ("something like Urel" is hardly helpful) I can't be of much use. Obviously you can tell that lots of people are getting here and able to post. Is your problem only happening at school and not at home? Perhaps there is a network help desk at your school that could do some investigation.
My problem has been at home. I have no problem getting to the main area of Sub-talk or any other site. But when I click on Sub-talk or try to go directly I get a Connection Timed Out.
I think it may have something to do with the cookies established by Sub-Talk. I tried to get to subtalk using another screen name I have in AOL and it went thru w/o a problem. I then took a chance and reloaded the AOL software and had AOL's Internet software reload - effectively "wiping out" the cookies and so far it has worked fine.
Dave, this did not happen until you instituted the password control on postings.
Alan: I just found out that I'm bag on Subtalk on my computer. I don;t know for how long, nor am I getting my hopes too high. I have been doing a slow burn since Friday. Maybe the worst is over, but who knows. Something was (maybe still is) amiss. Some of my tech people are going to be busy over Easter break because I want none of this to bug me when I get back.
I guess misery loves company. I also have trouble sometimes getting into this field of subtalk. I get a connection time out also. I go into other fields with no problem at all.Only this field gives me problems sometimes. I thought it was my computer but feel better now knowing I'm not the only one with this problem. Maybe too many people in at the same time. Either way, the website operators need to look into this problem. BIG AL
Big Al: Yes they do. And fast. I was doing a slow burn for four days because of it. My people here said it was Subtalk's fault, Dave said it was my server's fault. Who the hell knows? All I know was that I was in drydock for four days and it stunk. I'm back on now but, then again, who knows for how long? I just hope this doesn;t happen again.
Fred,
The problem has to be somewhere in this site. If I am having problems
via AOL and you are having problems via your IP etc, etc, etc, then it can't be us.
Dave, you are going to have to breakdown and look into the problem.
Allan
Look, 68452 SubTalk hits so far this week, 102215 last week, and 300 or so posts in the past two days says there's not a significant problem with the server. The whole site does over a million HTTP requests a week. Of course there are times where the server is congested, the network is down, etc. What do you really expect me to do with the resources I have? Do you think I'm a Yahoo or Amazon with infinite resources here? When I see some cash coming into the site to buy a fancy-schmancy new server and move to a super-well connected backbone ISP, I'll be the first to agree improvements can be made. We've been through this before. If you really want something for nothing I could host the site on GeoCities with stupid pop up ads, banner ads, and watermarks.
[Do you think I'm a Yahoo or Amazon with infinite resources here?]
Dunno about Yahoo, but the way Amazon keeps hemorraging cash, before long you probably *will* have more resources than they do :-)
Dave, you're doing a great job. Yes, we all get frustrated a bit, but most of us have been around this stuff from both sides long enough to recognize that there are many factors affecting the access quality. Based on what I see your only limiting factor is your success, and I think we can all live with that!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Dave: How much in contributions would it take from each of us in order for you to get a super connected ISP? I wouldn't mind giving my fair share. You have to understand that this Subtalk is big stuff to us. There is no other place on my computer, any program, any website that I can compare to this one. So if you have to ask for donations, and that is what it takes, then do so. We'll see if the others are as much for keeping this site in A-1 condition as we are. By the way, I couldn't get on the first time I tried this morning. When I got on the NYCsubway.org site, I quickly hit subtalk before it said document complete below. When I waited for the document complete the second time I got right on. Is their a connection there? Maybe?
Given the amount of disk space we take up and size of total transfers a month (about 1.5 gig disk space, about 50 gig of transfers a month) it would cost a couple thousand a month to host it on a serious, business-class, well connected web hosting site. Believe me, no amount of contributions will ever add up to that. The volume that this site does each month places it way out of the realm of "personal web site" and well into "business" categories for pricing. I think panix.com would charge around $2500/month and I don't consider them particularly well connected or primarily in the business of running web hosting farms...
Well you answered that one for me. It was just an idea, but as long as I can get on Subtalk I'm happy. It was a rough four days when I couldn't and what's strange is that I still don;t have a clue as to why.
I have no trouble getting on Subtalk! Maybe it is your ISP?
His school is his ISP.
Hey Dave: How much in contributions would it take from each of us in order for you to get a super connected ISP? I wouldn't mind giving my fair share. You have to understand that this Subtalk is big stuff to us. There is no other place on my computer, any program, any website that I can compare to this one. So if you have to ask for donations, and that is what it takes, then do so. We'll see if the others are as much for keeping this site in A-1 condition as we are. By the way, I couldn't get on the first time I tried this morning. When I got on the NYCsubway.org site, I quickly hit subtalk before it said document complete below. When I waited for the document complete the second time I got right on. Is their a connection there? Maybe?
Given the amount of disk space we take up and size of total transfers a month (about 1.5 gig disk space, about 50 gig of transfers a month) it would cost a couple thousand a month to host it on a serious, business-class, well connected web hosting site. Believe me, no amount of contributions will ever add up to that. The volume that this site does each month places it way out of the realm of "personal web site" and well into "business" categories for pricing. I think panix.com would charge around $2500/month and I don't consider them particularly well connected or primarily in the business of running web hosting farms...
Well you answered that one for me. It was just an idea, but as long as I can get on Subtalk I'm happy. It was a rough four days when I couldn't and what's strange is that I still don;t have a clue as to why.
I have no trouble getting on Subtalk! Maybe it is your ISP?
His school is his ISP.
Does anyone knows how to obtain information on the St Louis Car Co.
on the internet?
The company does not exist as a builder. Another company of that same name is in the private railcar business.
Try typig this into your search engine:
rapid transit car builders destroyed by the New York City Transit Authority
Don't be suprised if you see Pullman show up as well.
question is to the TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB.............. (experts) ......especially the 142s worshipers!!
etc...... after a close study of the illustrated subway car roster on this site and looking thru all of the THUMNAILS
of the R-142s. When the air conditioning fails as they all do !!....... Where can you open up the side windows for
fresh air like you can do with the REDBIRDS !!!...........! WHAT ?? sealed windows ?? like most buildings.!!
SalaamAllah 4
R142er's 0
yea !! i am trying to ask on a stuffy day with the R-142s packed with people and the air conditioning QUITS !!!...
( it breaks down and fails )......AND DONT WORRY IT WILL HAPPEN !!... maybe sooner than later ..!!?
NOBODY HAS AN ANSWER ( except for personal attcaks and flamage ) watch and see the NEGATIVE-response!
As I posted a few minutes ago (people, PLEASE, when you post a question, wait for the answer before posting the question again), the R-142 has windows that can open. And NYCT is known for having VERY reliable air conditioning.
David
I think the R-142s are being equipped with two roof air conditioners, to serve as redundancy if one fails. Also, the design of these A/C units is supposed to make it real easy to lift one out and put another back in.
--Mark
Yep. Stuff that's trickling 'up' from PCs. If your modem goes bad, you swap it out. If an A/C unit on the 142 goes bad, you swap it out, repair the broken one, and swap it back in to replace the next unit that fails. We do that at work with our printers. When one fails, we immediately send out a replacement, and the broken printer goes for repair, then retuns to us. The downside of this is that until recently, no one bothered to record the serial numbers, so now no one knows where the OOW printers are.
-Hank
hope you enjoy the stuffed no air no window to open etc... heat eat and enjoy !!
You must have missed page three, Ministry of Truth , paragragh 3 subsection 19.
The air conditionar will NEVER FAIL.
So there you are.
avid
Another case of PEBKAC.
Problem Exists Between Keyboard and Chair
pebkac..??...like in flamage ..?
No, PEBKAC like your brain and your fingers don't interface. It's pretty obvious.
heypaul doesn't suffer from it.
Neither does anyone else who posts on SubTalk. Many of us tried to to help you be a better poster, but PEBKAC hinders every attempt to help.
The earlier comment (which due to PEBKAC didn't take) mentioned that I'm on the East Coast and you're on the West Coast. That means there are about 3680 miles separating us, which is just dandy with me. I have my streetcars, Philadelphia (and even New York) is a short travel away, and I never worry about you showing up on my doorstop. (Not that you would be welocomed. Other people who frequent SubTalk have been visitors to my area.
when you loose the go to flamage and personal attacks ..... transverse -cab-club-members. ...of cource !!
Hey Sal, learn how to spell and learn how to speak English! Then maybe you might make just a little sense. Nah ... not even then! R142's all the way!
call my name right first !! my name is not sal_.....when will you learn english enough to spell my name right ?
my name is not sal_ mr english !!
Actually, we in the helpdesk industry write it as 'PEBCAK' on our form ID-10-T when we take the calls. I believe it's a standard practice, although it varies from company to company. My current company doesn't use the ID-10-T, we use 'Quality-of-Service' reports. Ick.
-Hank
?????.....!!!!!!
B"H
You mean there's air conditioning on the NYC subway? How come i'm always the last to know?
04/04/2000
Now wait a minute Salaam. Even though you're on the west coast, there may be a easy solution to this. When the 142's are being tested near a station, maybe a SubTalker can call out to the crew asking if the side windows open. Since these cars are reputed to be soundproofed, the crew will have to open the side window to hear what the SubTalker is shouting about. That should reveal the great mystery of those side windows.
It sure beats that cold shower followed by a cold beer to wash down that kosher hot dog imported from Newark Penn Station!!!
!!!!!!!GET MAD!!!!!........not really!
Bill Newkirk
Instead of 'scoring' like an adolescant, why not either back up the arguement with facts, or dispute it. In this case, Salaam (and you) are wrong. The 142 indeed has windows that open. Read a little futher down, and you'll see how the A/C units will be repaired.
-Hank
you see what I mean south ferry..??... I win again ! salaam100....... transverse cab car club........ 0....ZERO..!!!
Man, with you and South Ferry things just go in one ear and out the other. We in the Transverse Car Club have our facts and you, Big Sal, and your pal South Ferry both have your ignorance and your stupidity. Hank asked you to back your unjustified hatred of the R142's with facts or to dispute the argument instead of "scoring like adolescents," which both of you are acting like. But rather back up your ridiculous hatred of the R142's, you say "I win again!" You live 3000 miles away in La-la land and have never been in one of the new cars. Therefore, you don't know how well the A/C works, so once again you come off sounding like a moron. You win nothing!
Sal, I'm gonna tell you the same thing I told South Ferry. Get a plane ticket to New York sometime in the next few months. Ride the R142s for yourself. Shoot a video of them if you want to. If you still don't like them, then you can put them down. But until then, stop bashing the R142's!
can you spell someones name correctly ?? mu name is not sal __!!
Like David and I posted a little ways back, the R142 windows can open. Also to the R142 is designed with a dual HVAC system, so that if one fails you still have one going strong. And if both fail, windows can be opened.
My GOD!
This is exactly what was talked about in the (David Pirmann, A disturbed poster) post, why is there such negativity to the new cars. And if it is because your loosing railfan windows, BOO HOO! Eventually all the subway cars in the system will be like that. Especially with the TA talking about replacing the R38-R42 class cars. Give it up! You can disrespect the "Transverse Cab Car Club" all you want. In the end, a all Transverse Cab Car fleet is where the TA is heading. Accept it, I DID! Be a man about and stop b!tc#ing about it.
A Fresh Air, the only spot your gonna get fresh air is if you on a elevated line, otherwise you can kill that fresh air comment. Besides you live in LA, you don't have to contend with these cars.
R142 Fans even the score: NOW IT'S 2 AND QUICKLY GAINING!
R142 Boi 2K
i agree with u all the way. beside i luv the R 142's more than i luv the red birds. i'm the type to dislike out dated things. by the way, it is common sense to have windows that open. of course the mta would order that. i think that what was told about windows locked shut is a big rumor
boo hoo !! when you are stuck standing room only MAD and ANGRY when you think back in your mind just how right
salaamallah is and how you are just too proud to admit it !!hope you bring an oxygen mask on that day ....you will need it!!
THE TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB will need it !! ....I remember ATLANTA when the AC fails ENJOY IT WHEN IT HAPPENS TO YOU !!!
also i have been on trains& buses when smelly people with thier awful breath and no side window to open !!! and no AC.!
we have this problem on the blue green and sometimes the red line too !! ( here in los angeles ) the AC fails here too !!
you dont like that i told the TRUTH on this also buildings with no windows to open what sick person thought of hat idea ?
....
Listen up and listen up real good. I didn't bring smart a$$ness into this conversation. Further more, your negativity is not needed.
I could care less how much you hate the new R-142 subway cars. It's going to be like that.........Redbird fans and R142 fans.
But I have come to realize that you are the kind of person that must be right. EVEN THOUGH YOU LIVE IN LA and I SEE THE R-142 CARS ON A REGULAR. Whatever!
I'm going to leave it as that because your heading this into a argument and I'm not Pigs, I will tell you about yourself outside of the board.
R142 Boi 2K aka Trevor Logan Junior
As has been stated previously on this thread,
THE R-142"s HAVE WINDOWS THAT OPEN
PAY ATTENTION!!
Peace,
Andee
THANK YOU ANDEE! I hope placing it in huge "red" moving letters opened his dag-on eyes!
Trevor
Don't bet on it. 8->
their (there?) At the post.........
and their off!!!!!!
Peace,
Andee
UH OH...I'M IN BIG TROUBLE NOW
Peace,
Andee
This is going to be quite funny when he responds to this! He needs to open up his eyes, the Redbirds is not the most important thing in the fleet.
Trevor
However, since he suffers from PEBCAK (Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard) no rational or sensible remark will ever take hold.
You could post anything that was patently untrue and he'd reply to it.
What we all ought to do is just ignore him for 30 days or so. Read, but don't reply. Betcha he just might go bother somebody else.
you sound like a PEBCAK to me! and what truth have you ever posted ? also all you seem to do is flam -flim-flam.!!
and what sense did your last post say N-O-T-H-I-N-G.!!...... did you forget dan this is forum for rail transit !!
( just wanted to remind you ) ON TOPIC!...........also you idiot my name is not sal_.!!
falmage!...flamage..!!....and my name is not sal_...for the 6th time.!! still no proff and or photos of how you can open
up side windows on the r142 ........!! NOW!! which one of you attackers have open up ....ANY SIDE WINDOW....
....... on the new junkers the r-142s ?? AND when did you do this and your proff... not taking a axe like ""heypaul"
said that was what you were going to have to do !! again just like I said buildings with no windows you can open up !!
maybe the windows in the r-142s wont even open up in an emergency !!!......my name is not sal_..!!!
VERY few people have been on the R-142s, since they're not in service yet...and of those, very few people post here on SubTalk. I have seen the R-142 test train with my own two eyes (OK, four if you count my glasses). The windows most definitely do open. In fact, the windows on some of the cars WERE open so that wiring could be run from under the car to equipment temporarily set up inside the car for testing purposes.
It's one thing to deliver an informed opinion. It's quite another to blather on, from 3,000 miles away, about something one knows N-O-T-H-I-N-G about, and to keep blathering on even in the face of facts presented by not one, not two, but several posters. Since I don't want to feed this blathering, I hereby resolve never to answer another Salaamallah posting -- I don't need the headache.
David
3000 miles away and called the shots right !! still didnt tell us where the sealed shut windows open ( and proff)....
oh well you said...n-o-t-h-i-n-g.. right ? take excedrin for headaches you cause to yourself !! by the way you answered
the last post but didnt bring the proff with you !! when test wiring was run was the windows INSTALLED as they would
have been when they so called go into test breakdown service or are you going to tell us some more baloney about how you missed this
100% !! and not from 30 feet away yet alone how i called it right from 3000 .!! how about that !
Smelly people with awful breath? Failing A/C? Standing room only? Sounds like riding the Redbirds to me. You've obviously never been on a Redbird or for that matter, the NYC Subway.
Say your goodbyes to Redbirds now. Because my #2 line is finally going to have the most modern rolling stock in the system and it will finally get the respect it deserves! The 2 was denied new cars when the R62/62A's came on the scene. It will not be denied again! They me be painted red, but to me they are the same old smelly graffiti-covered wrecks they were when I rode them as a kid. Don't tell me how lucky I am to have them on my line, or that I'll be sorry when they're gone, because believe me, I won't! I have been patiently waiting for 15 years to see new cars on the 2. Finally, they're on their way. And nobody's going to stop them from coming.
long ...long post ..!! still said nothing ! still have more windows to open on the redbirds and older cars...!
thats if you still can open up a window without an ax on a 142 !....you will be lucky if they last 15 years
hope this answers your flamage !
That's right!
The #2 and #5 lines have been suffering for too long. They deserve the new cars, it's sad that the 7 line will not see them and the 6 line doesn't even deserve them, lol!
Just let Sal think what he wants, he lives 3,000 miles away and really has no stability to what he says, we see the cars in person he don't (And with the windows open, lol).
R142 Boi 2K
true true! the #2 and 5 needs them bad. those redbirds need to go. windows do open, how they got the wiring through for testing(common sense they do open!) besides if the ac(HVAC) STOPS WORKING, of course they care about the passengers health and open the windows. maybe they don't do it in California but they do em' here
Thank You Man, I'm glad to see some people come up with some dag-on common sense to them. R142 are going to rein supreme, and in the words of Sal "I'll eat crow" if they don't. lol!
R142 Boi 2K
go to the subway museum and open up some real SIDE WINDOWS !! now we are making SENSE !.
OH MY GAWD!...HE SPELLED "SENSE" CORRECTLY. Will miracles never cease!
Peace,
Andee
question .............. did you go to the subway museum to see some real side windows ? yes or no ?? ..........??!!............!...........
...
On the real chief, I go to the NYTM on a regular, so kill it! Let it go, your gonna have your opinion and others are going to have theres, oh never mind, talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.
Peace
R142 Boi 2K
the museum car fleet side windows proves my point !! ( i rest my case ! ) ......... mr. brick wall !!
What point, you have yet to prove a point, all you said was the musuem car windows open, oooooooooo! Anyone who is a transit buff knows that. Also I expect you to show the same amount of respect I show you. The next time you decide to get smart with me on this board (mr. brick wall), I will handle you differently and in e-mail. Make this my first and last time warning you.
R142 Boi 2K
i will send you a message i dont want other subtalkers to read on your and my e mail
( thank you )......... none of thier business ..... i saw your handle and thought you were someone else
my sincere apology !.......
I'll let it go, Apology Accepted!
R142 Boi 2K
I hope you will acept my apologies as you have an excellent transit site and i mistook you for someone else !!
i sent you some other info thru you e mail with an apology.. !
as for the other subtalkers the museum fleet was as a comparison to the r-142 only !!
after this threrad this side window issue should die with this post and die off and go 100% away !!
is that allright with the rest of you ?? ...................... LET THIS GO !!!...... ( Thank You )......
Apology Accepted!
R142 Boi 2K
thank you sir !! your website is excellent bus and rail car thumnails etc...
i will try to send you bus and rail of los angeles and san diego as well !!!
my website www.homestead.com/asiaticcommunications/recordingservices.html
besides Los Angeles doesn't have fresh air either!!!! (ROFL)
dont go to HOUSTON TEXAS they have us 100% beat now they are the leader !!
dont go to HOUSTON TEXAS they have us 100% beat now they are the leader !!..
ROTFLMAO
ok rotflmao! soon los angeles will be beat in the worst smog by houstion and atlanta !!! so we are third place,
in air pollution in the united states !! not anything to sneeze at ! we should have kept our original rail system !..
Everyone,
Sal is not going to reason with us with any common sense. For someone that lives 3,000 miles away seem to know everything about the TA's Subway Fleet.
We live here and some of us see the R142s on a regular and some of us have been on the cars, I'm one that has. ALL WINDOWS OPEN, WE KNOW THAT! So if Sal can't get it throw his thick LA Smog filled skull, then let's just leave it alone, we know we are right cuz we see that cars and well, HE DON'T!
R142 Boi 2K
>>>Witness the oceans of tears still being shed over the demolition of the old Penn Station, 35 years after
the fact, in many cases by people who weren't even born at the time. <<<
So, was the old Penn all it was cracked up to be? I know they had compromised the design in the later years by adding intrusive elements of modernization.
The broader question is, do we in fact worship old designs more than we should?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Speaking as one of those tear-shedders who was born a bit less than a decade after the demolition of Penn Station, I can only imagine, with the help of the many photographs, of course, what it must have been like to experience it. Personally, I believe it *must* have been worth saving, considering with what it was replaced. (I recall reading a Pennsylvania Railroad official bragging about how the station under Madison Square Garden would be the "best in the world." And he said it with a straight face.)
The literature mentions that many in the early 60's thought it was "ugly" or "monolithic" or just plain "old." Many will argue the merits of Grand Central over Penn till they die. Yes, it was too big and pink (well, more gray by then) and out-of-place in 1963, but it still provided an excellent venue for what would become, and is even more so now becoming, an essential service to the city.
Believe me, I am not one of those guys who thinks, "Just because it's new, it's bad." I would probably feel much differently had the old Penn Station been replaced by something other than a compressed pit, suffocating under a sports arena. Witness some of the "modern" European train stations. The whole event of Penn Station's destruction is, in fact, a metaphor for what happened to railroading in general after WWII: Limping along, broke, broken and tucked away, where we could all forget about it, only to support it, in all variations of the word, when we absolutely *had* to.
So, it's not that we "worship old designs more than we should." The loss I feel, though never really having had Penn Station to lose, stems not so much from missing the design, but from the realization of the significance of the place. What I mean is, think about how many millions of people passed through the building on the way to the rest of their lives - to home, to war, to friends and family, and to work. Even the most insignificant passer-by could not have forgotten Penn Station! Please pardon me for becoming sentimental, but those memories need space to live.
Can you imagine feeling this way about LaGuardia Airport?
I was at the original Penn Station, or what was left of it, on July 20, 1965, when we rode in from Linden, NJ on our way to the World's Fair. To be honest, I don't remember anything except the announcer's voice booming over the loudspeakers in whatever was being used for a waiting room (was the main waiting room still there by then?).
It's a shame it was torn down. At one time, there was a proposal to demolish the promenade area, convert it to a parking lot, and keep the main waiting room and concourse.
Stylistically, it had the current Penn beat, hands down. The current one is truely a dump, and probbably should be demolished, along with MSG, and replaced with a totally new one - and I don't think tearing up the Post Office (equally historic) is the right thing to do.
But the layout of the old, and current Penn station is just horrible. No amount of face lifts is going to fix the twisted platforms, narrow stairs, low ceilings, etc.
With talk of a new MSG surfacing, growing traffic in Penn, a possible breakup / elimanation of Amtrak, and more, I think it's high time everyone sit down and design a whole new MSG, and Penn station.
Ok - Here's a question - if you design a replacement, with a clean sheet of paper, cost being no object, etc - how would you do it?
My ideas:
a) realign all the tracks and platforms to a)make them all straight, and all the platforms of uniform size.
b) raise the ceiling a bit and conceal all the wrieing, pipes, etc. Just because it's track level doesn't mean it all has to look ugly.
c) Make EVERYTHING, LIRR, NJT, Amtrak, Acela all one level. get rid of stairs / escalators and the bottlenecks they cause.
d) Provide ample access to all tracks. open up as much space as possible on the main level
e) the main level would have HIGH ceilings in it.
f) Track soignage, at both the main level, and track level, would be industrial type flat screens, and centrally controlled.
g) Station announcements would be centrally controlled and inteligable (the NJT ones sure are)
f) A generally better layout. why does the LIRR - the largest customer in Penn, also have a tiny, tiny space to work in?
g) Stylistically, I'd want it to be Art Deco :)
Anyone else got any ideas?
First because you have 2 tracks expanding into 21 and then back to 4 tracks in about 4.3 blocks, you're going to get some crimping at the ends. The only way to remove the curving is to shorten all the platforms which would hurt capasity and train's fitting. Second, who said wires and pipes look bad. Third, the LIRR does get its fair share. It has almost exclusive access to 8 tracks (14-21). NJT exclusevely uses 4 (1-4). Amtrak and NJT share the 9 that are left (5-13) in about a 1/2 ratio so LIRR gets 8, NJT gets about 7 and Amtrak uses about 6. That sounds about fair.
Now you've all heard my Penn Station plan before, but here it is again.
1) Bulldoze MSG and dump it in the Meddowlands (for spite).
2) Bulldoze GCT and dump it in the ocean (for revenge).
3) Completely re-build Penn Station to its 1911 splendor.
4) Return control of Penn Station signaling to the 4 towers (A, C, KN, JO)
Its that simple.
[LIRR gets 8, NJT gets about 7 and Amtrak uses about 6. That sounds about fair.]
Except that it's completely out of proportion to actual use. The general consensus is that Amtrak hogs space.
>>>The general consensus is that Amtrak hogs space.<<<
True, but it's their house.
Peace,
Andee
Yes, Penn Station was amazing. It just had a monumentalism to it that I don't think even Grand Central matched.
When you arrived at Penn (at least on the long distance level) you knew you had arrived in a big City. The soaring heights inside the main waiting room had a little of the effect of a cathedral. The wide and ornate staircases had a real grandeur, like in a fabulous mansion (or maybe Emperor Ming's palace).
I remember my first time seeing Penn Station as a little kid. Smoke from the cook fires on the dining cars drifted to the top of the skylights in the main waiting room giving a sort of diffused light which gave me the impression I was outdoors.
Yes, the degradation in later years was bad, espeically in the entrance hall, but just as the expression goes that you can put perfume on a pig..., the deterioration of Penn was putting mud on a Queen, the royalty still shone through.
Does that answer your question? :-)
I forget who said it, but after MSG was built, he said something like, "Before, one would enter New York like a god, now one just scuttles in like a rat." I wasn't alive when the old Penn station was there, but from the pictures, it would have sucked to see them demolish it.
My only memories of it were just as they started demolition, with all the protective coverings over the interior driveway for the taxis. I don't really recall much of the inside from those early trips, but remember the complete mess the place was for the next 20 years (espeically the LIRR section between 32nd and 33rd streets).
Not only were the financial problems the Pennsy had a killer for the station, but it was in a far less desirable business location (at the time) than Grand Central, which also benefitted from having Walter Cronkite in a CBS studio there while Penn Station was in its decline in the 1950s. Very good PR for the place.
Also the commuters running on the New York Central and New Haven lines were on the whole more affluent at the time than those riding to Long Island or New Jersey, which also helped make Grand Central the more economically attractive of the two main rail terminals to businesses and advertisers. And fortunately, the New York Central had enough back-area space to stick in the Pan Am Building and make some extra cash in the early 1960s without destroying the main concourse. That was impossible to do with the Garden.
[Not only were the financial problems the Pennsy had a killer for the station, but it was in a far less desirable business location (at
the time) than Grand Central, which also benefitted from having Walter Cronkite in a CBS studio there while Penn Station was in its decline in the 1950s. Very good PR for the place.]
Location is an often-overlooked point. From what I've read, the area around Penn Station was the heart of the (now diminished) garment district, which had a definite low-rent atmosphere. It's really only been in the last 20 or so years that the west side has become a more desirable business location.
Why didn't they put the Garden over that 9-10th St. pit?
Seventh Avenue is a far more desirable location than Ninth Avenue.
A perfect answer for this thread -- No direct mass transit access! When the old Garden was built in 1925, it had a Ninth Ave. el stop on the west end, and the Broadway local a block to the south. By 1932, the Eighth Ave. subway was built, and it had an exit right at the front door.
From MSG's stanpoint back in 1962 -- before the celebrity-laden $1,000 courtside seats -- Eighth Ave. between 31st and 33rd streets was a near perfect location to get people to and from the building. The A, AA and E right below, the 1, 2 and 3 at Seventh Ave., PATH a block a way and the LIRR and Pennsylvania Railroad running right underneath the building. And from the neighborhood's point of view, it also was a good deal at the time, because the real estate values in the area did go up with the addition of the Garden and the Penn Plaza towers.
Could the values have gone up if Penn Station had never been torn down -- of course, but not back in the 1960s when most major passenger rail stations were left to rot. If it could have made it into the 1980s, it likely would have experienced a revival like Union Station in Washington.
On the whole, I would rather Penn Station had survived the way it was, but from MSG's standpoint, the move down to 33rd Street has been wildly successful.
I for one remember Old Penn - in all it's faded, late 50's glory. When they tore it down and dumped the rubble in the Jersey Meadows (aka swamp) so they could build the place where Jimmy Hoffa was supposedly dumped, I SWORE I would never get off a train in the basement of a d****d sports palace. And I never have. I get off in Newark and take the Hudson Tubes to 33rd Street. At first we had the K's, change to the Black Cars at Exchange Place. A wonderful trip, especially on the Black Cars - roaring through the tubes in pitch blackness (what's a headlight?), broken only by the glow of the signals and the frequent repeaters. Even 37 years later and with the PA cars, it's still a great ride
What did you think of that "clamshell" ticket counter they stuck in the main waiting room in, IIRC, 1957?
I've always wondered this: What stood at 200 Park Avenue before the PanAm building was built?
Six hotdog vendors,a pretzel guy and a fresh fruit wagon, thats my guess. Oh ya, a baglady sitting on an old milk box, the kind that was used instead of Jack stands.
avid
[Yes, Penn Station was amazing. It just had a monumentalism to it that I don't think even Grand Central matched.
When you arrived at Penn (at least on the long distance level) you knew you had arrived in a big City.]
Yet let us not forget that the old Penn Station had a quite different role than the current one. Its glory days coincided with the glory days of long distance train travel. Commuter traffic, in contrast, was relatively low (many LIRR riders went to Flatbush, Hunterspoint or LIC, while Pennsylvania RR riders mostly went to Exchange Place). As a station mainly serving long-distance travelers, Penn Station almost *had* to have an aura of grandeur.
Today, the new Penn Station is mainly a commuter destination. People who ride the train every day aren't likely to be particularly interested in a grandiose station - keeping in mind that the great majority of them are not railfans. Long distance train travel is way down, and in any event Amtrak (and, by extension, its stations) has a utilitarian aspect unlike the prestigious trains of yesteryear.
Today, the new Penn Station is mainly a commuter destination. People who ride the train every day aren't likely to be particularly interested in a
grandiose station - keeping in mind that the great majority of them are not railfans. Long distance train travel is way down, and in any event Amtrak
(and, by extension, its stations) has a utilitarian aspect unlike the prestigious trains of yesteryear.
If stations were made more grand and awe inspiring as in the past, do you think that that may cause more people to become railfans and maybe make public transportation more attactive?
-- David
[If stations were made more grand and awe inspiring as in the past, do you think that that may cause more people to become railfans and maybe make public transportation more attactive?]
I doubt it. People will use public transportation if it's more convenient and less expensive than the alternatives. The most grandiose station won't help with either factor. I suppose you might get a few more railfans, but that's hardly enough to justify the massive costs of building huge, ornate stations.
[irst because you have 2 tracks expanding into 21 and then back to 4 tracks in about 4.3 blocks, you're going to get some crimping at the ends. The only way to remove the curving is to shorten all the platforms which would hurt capasity and train's fitting. Second, who said wires and pipes look bad. Third, the LIRR does get its fair share. It has almost exclusive access to 8 tracks (14-21). NJT exclusevely uses 4 (1-4). Amtrak and NJT share the 9 that are left (5-13) in about a 1/2 ratio so LIRR gets 8, NJT gets about 7 and Amtrak uses about 6. That sounds about fair.]
OTOH, having lived and worked in the neighborhood of GCT for many years I can say that it never ceased to have a magical effect on me as I walked through it--on the way to the subway!
Penn Station had more than a merely functional role, and I wouldn't understimate the importance of that. After all, wouldn't a modern tower be more efficient than the New York Public Library, with its time consuming steps and silly lions?
I recall reading somewhere that the cost of the monumental steps to Columbia's Low Library amounted to something like 25% of the cost of the building. These buildings are a reminder of a time when we cared about something other than efficiency.
Now that MSG is moving, I think we should take advantage of a rare, probably irreplaceable opportunity to fix a mistake, and rebuild the original, this time as a gateway not just to the remains of Amtrak and the commuter lines but to the region's three airports. Functionally, there's no need for it; financially, there's no justification for it. Overall, I'd say the argument is overwhelmingly in favor of doing it.
If the only way Penn Station could be rebuilt was that GCT had to be torn down, the station crammed into a basement and MSG built on top of it for a period not to be less than 38 years would you do it?
No. Coming from a die-hard Pennsy fan like myself, that's a difficult thing to say, but no, I would not want to destroy Grand Central. The unfortunate loss of the greatest RR station east of the Mississippi, if not the entire North American continent, does not justify the destruction of another significant monument to the golden age of railroading. Penn Station was a tragic loss, but at the same time it was a noble sacrifice, because the realization of that loss provided the catalyst for the historic preservation movement that has saved and reused countless other buildings in this country and, indeed, around the world during the past thirty-five years - including GCT.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What RR station west of the Mississippi could compete with Penn for grandeur?
By the way, I am biased because of where I grew up, but I believe that 30th st station is the nicest on the continent. Grand Central is the only one that can come close. What do those who saw Penn Station think of 30th in comparison?
What RR station west of the Mississippi could compete with Penn for grandeur?
Well, I've heard that Los Angeles Union Passenger Terminal is quite a station, and I'm sure that there are other passionate partisans of other stations out there as well. Since I've not visited many out that way I don't know - of the ones I know from experience, New York Penn is the greatest. 30th is also a nice station, especially since its renovation, but it doesn't convey anywhere near the majesty that NYP did, nor even GCT.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, I suppose Union Station in Houston would now qualify as the nation's most cavernous railroad station, since they've attatched the left field entrance to the Astros' new Enron Field to the main entrance of the railroad station. No other train station in the country fits 50,000 people and has a 250-foot high retractable roof. Only problem is, I don't think Amtrak's Sunset Limited even stops there anymore.
Check out http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/special/enron2/498812
How can you call yourself a Pensy fan and not activly strive to spite the New York Central System. They have been laughing at us for 38 years! Are you going to let them get away with that? If we can't have our station then why should they have theirs. I think that the residents North of the city (who BTW think they are better than ppl on Long Island and New Jersey) deserve to go a few decades having arrive in to city every day, in a BASEMENT. I would loose no sleep if a terrorist blew up GCT at 2 AM when nobody was around to get hurt. Besides with GCT out of the way 30th St. will win the nicest station award hands down.
I think that the residents North of the city (who BTW think they are better than ppl on Long Island]
Well, can you blame them? They have Metro North, you have the LIRR. Seems to me someone has to take responsibility for poor choice in railroads . . .
[If the only way Penn Station could be rebuilt was that GCT had to be torn down, the station crammed into a basement and MSG built on top of it for a period not to be less than 38 years would you do it?]
Only if the sandwich included the programmers who put the bugs in Windows 2000 . . . all kidding aside, I can't compare the two, because I while I have childish recollections of Penn Station--the cab ride into the columns struck me as exceedingly cool--that's all they are. But Penn was apparently the grander of the two.
Paul, I absolutely agree - it was an incredibly monumental structure. As another poster commented, it made you feel like you had ARRIVED in a place of IMPORTANCE.
My memories of the station are from the late '50s and '60s, when my mother and I would be taking the Broadway Limited on one of our regular trips to Chicago. We would always arrive at Penn well in advance of the train's departure, normally arriving by taxi from GCT or, if we had come to the city the day before, from our city place on Gramercy Park. I would explore every nook and cranny of the grand waiting room until the train would be called and we would head for our bedroom in the next-to-last car of the train. Then it was off to dinner in the diner (first seating) shortly after passing Trenton (I don't think it stopped, but I may be wrong) and off to bed once we had arrived in Harrisburg. On our return, of course, we were in more of a hurry, so Penn was more of a blur - rushing for a taxi to GCT and the next train north to Poughkeepsie. But I still have fond memories of looking up at that huge high ceiling, far more impressive in my eyes than that of Grand Central, welcoming us back.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Have you made the trip lately? As I've never been there, I have been thinking of visiting Chicago, and making a round trip on the Three Rivers (the present day equivalent of the Broadway Limited). Or maybe one way I'll try the Lake Shore Limited, but I *have* to go through PA at least once by train. I was going to go the whole nine -- get a sleeper and do it in some semblance of style. Try to travel through Horseshoe Curve during daylight, etc. Worth it or no?
BTW, Amtrak's Expansion plan calls for a 3rd daily long distance train running through Pennsylvania "The Manahattan Limited." I wonder why they don't call it the Broadway Limited? Maybe because they don't do the name much justice?
Amtrak had a Broadway Limited, until it got cut back to NY-Pittsburgh and renamed to the Three Rivers. Amtrak made some kind of vague promise when they extended the Three Rivers to Chicago that they would resume using the name Broadway Limited after the train got sleeping cars and a diner. The Three Rivers got the old Heritage sleepers, but still has no diner. I wonder if Amtrak even remembers this.
"BTW, Amtrak's Expansion plan calls for a 3rd daily long distance train running through Pennsylvania 'The Manahattan Limited.'"
And they project an extension of the existing Chicago-Detroit "Twilight Limited" through Canada to Niagara Falls and then via the Empire Route to New York City. To avoid customs delays, the train would make no stops in Canada; that is, no stops from Dearborn, MI to Niagara Falls, NY. The proverbial "sealed train," as it were.
That would make two daily Chicago-New York trains by the southern Northeast Corridor route and two by the northern Empire Service route. And with the Northeast Corridor trains (or Acela, when they get it going eventually) connecting Philly and NY, the Chicago-Philly "Pennsylvanian" is practically another Chicago-NY train.
Now if Amtrak could only bring the "Cardinal" up to daily service (three times a week -- BAH!) so that there would be two daily trains from Chicago to Washington DC, and reinstate Chicago-Florida service via Atlanta (the lack of it is scandalous), I think that we'd almost have ourselves a real railway system. :^)
It will interesting to see if those trains do get added. On one hand, I am excited to see amtrak acting as if they want to grow, not just survive. They say they can reactivate equipment and improve utilization to equip these trains - if they can, I think it would be a real turnaround for them - a can-do attitude at amtrak seems like a change, definitely for the better.
On the other hand, if they fall flat on their faces with the expansions and/acela it will be tough to defend them when they end up not being self-sufficient in 2003.
I sometimes wonder if they should keep the long distance trains they have now for political reasons and throw all their energy into developing mid-distance corridors - that is where amtrak makes the most sense cause that's where trains make the most sense. They should be pushing the Midwest high speed rail thing HARD, for instance.
[I sometimes wonder if they should keep the long distance trains they have now for political reasons and throw all their energy into developing mid-distance corridors - that is where amtrak makes the most sense cause that's where trains make the most sense. They should be pushing the Midwest high speed rail thing HARD, for instance.]
That makes a *lot* of sense. Conventional trains can't compete with the speed of air for long distance travel. Train service should be offered where it offers real utility.
OTOH, the long distance runs have enormous potential for tourism if run on a less frequent schedule. They should be packaged as such, with traditional stock and service--like the Orient Express.
I haven't ridden the train out there in many years. I was in Chicago last December for the first time in 21 years (my wife and I lived there briefly in the late '70s) when my daughter was checking out law schools but didn't even have the time to ride the "L". Horseshoe Curve is wonderful - I went trackside a couple of years ago - but in the old days it was actually more impressive by night, especially heading upgrade past a slow freight belching smoke and with a downgrade train or two passing as well. Memories!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Imagine if the action to preserve Grand Central was taken to preserve the old Penn Station.
The demolition of Penn Station created the preservation movement. Unfortunately, it quickly went to the other extreme: we not only preserve great buildings like Penn Station, but tenements as well.
[The demolition of Penn Station created the preservation movement. Unfortunately, it quickly went to the other extreme: we not only preserve great buildings like Penn Station, but tenements as well.]
Preservation may have its limits even today. NYU is probably going to be able to demolish a building that has some historical significance. Edgar Allen Poe lived in the building, at 85 West Third Street, in 1845-46 and wrote at least some of _The Cask of Amontillado_ there. What's even worse, in my view, is that NYU wants the site for an expansion of its law school ... just what we need, more law school graduates who can't get real jobs and will go around bringing dubious lawsuits (sigh).
(Preservation may have its limits even today. NYU is probably going to be able to demolish a building that has some historical significance).
NYU is (LOL) a non-profit, and in New York City non-profits get to do whatever they want, including building huge non-residential buildings in residential areas. NYC wants all the low income housing and tax-exempt property it can get. Its taxpaying, job creating businesses that are "anti-neighborhood."
[NYU is (LOL) a non-profit, and in New York City non-profits get to do whatever they want, including building huge non-residential buildings in residential areas. NYC wants all the low income housing and tax-exempt property it can get. Its taxpaying, job creating businesses that are "anti-neighborhood."]
In fairness, both NYU and Columbia are huge operations that contribute significantly to the City's economy.
[In fairness, both NYU and Columbia are huge operations that contribute significantly to the City's economy.]
But not as much as they could. Neither institution specializes in engineering and computer science, the fields in demand in today's economy. Having a place like MIT or Caltech would be far better for the city's economy even if it employed fewer people than the existing universities.
[ [In fairness, both NYU and Columbia are huge operations that contribute significantly to the City's economy.]
But not as much as they could. Neither institution specializes in engineering and computer science, the fields in demand in today's economy. Having a place like MIT or Caltech would be far better for the city's economy even if it employed fewer people than the existing universities.]
Columbia's engineering school does lag in quality by comparison to the rest of the university. That seems a shame, but how would you beef it up? That would presumably require a massive infusion of capital to biuld new facilities and steal faculty.
As I understand it, there's been some effort to juice up the local biotech effort.
It seems to me that given the current growing popularity of the country's top schools (and the highway robbery tuitions they're getting away with), it would make sense for the City to help local institutions expand. For example, Columbia College has only 4,000 students, making it the smallest college in the Ivy League. With applications and selectivity at an all time high, it would make sense for the school to expand. NYU is already huge, but could attract better students if it had a real campus. So suppose the City gave Governor's Island to Columbia and endowed a new high tech campus? By moving the business and law school there, they could open up space for undergraduates and the Arts and Sciences on Morningside Heights. Or they could give it to NYU and fund a campus extension for Columbia over the HH Parkway and onto landfill in the river. There are lots of possibilities, which, because neither Columbia nor NYU are ever going to be hard up for students, offer certain results.
[...it would make sense for the City to help local institutions expand. For example, Columbia College has only 4,000 students, making it the smallest college in the Ivy League. With applications and selectivity at an all time high, it would make sense for the school to expand. NYU is already huge, but could attract better students if it had a real campus. So suppose the City gave Governor's Island to Columbia and endowed a new high tech campus? By moving the business and law school there, they could open up space for undergraduates and the Arts and Sciences on Morningside Heights. Or they could give it to NYU and fund a campus extension for Columbia over the HH Parkway and onto landfill in the river.]
Interesting ideas, but I don't know if they'd work too well in practice. It seems as if NYU's campus-in-the-City location is a big part of the reason why it's become so popular.* To a probably somewhat lesser extent, Columbia's compact Morningside Heights campus also might be attractive to many potential students. City-provided facilites on Governor's Island or elsewhere simply might not prove too popular. Possibly something in the line of a research center, only loosely connected with either university, might do better in that location.
* = rumor has it that NYU's applications shot up after the TV show _Felicity_ went on the air. Dunno if that's true, but in any event the show's ratings have slumped big-time this season - said to be attributed in part to the star's (I can't remember her name) ugly, rather Sapphic hairstyle.
[Interesting ideas, but I don't know if they'd work too well in practice. It seems as if NYU's campus-in-the-City location is a big part of the reason why it's become so popular.* To a probably somewhat lesser extent, Columbia's compact Morningside Heights campus also might be attractive to many potential students. City-provided facilites on Governor's Island or elsewhere simply might not prove too popular. Possibly something in the line of a research center, only loosely connected with either university, might do better in that location.
* = rumor has it that NYU's applications shot up after the TV show _Felicity_ went on the air. Dunno if that's true, but in any event the show's ratings have slumped big-time this season - said to be attributed in part to the star's (I can't remember her name) ugly, rather Sapphic hairstyle.]
Sadly enough, I'd say that both schools have benefitted much more from shows that portray the City in a positive light than from any actual change in their academic standing. I have the uncomfortable feeling sometimes that the City's fortunes were destroyed by Johnny Carson and resurrected by Seinfeld. . . .
Anyway, I'm not talking about moving either school *out* of the City. As you say, Manhattan is a terrific draw right now. But I have some contact with prospective students, and know that many are turned off by Columbia's adjacency to Harlem (perceived incorrectly as a risk factor) and the not very idyllic nature of the NYU campus. A river extension of CU would just be part of Manhattan, but a facility on Governor's Island would have to be connected by frequent, free 24-hour high speed ferry service.
One possibility (don't know if I mentioned it, because I can't scroll back) would be to move CU's business and law schools to Governor's Island (what better location than the tip of Manhattan), leaving more room for undergrads on Morningside Heights; unlike undergraduates, professional students apply to schools on the basis of educational reputation rather than locale, and the professional schools needn't be adjacent to the others. (Actually, I think the City's current proposal for Governor's Island includes some graduate student housing).
There are many possibilities, but central to all of them is the notion that an inevestment of a billion or two would pay off in almost no time if it meant that these insistutions could expand, and that that would be true in times good and bad. Sports stadia will never pay for themselves, and a larger convention center, while desireable, may not pay off either. I can't think of any other area that has a guaranteed payoff like this. It's a particularly sensible use of Governor's Island, given that no one will ever use a park there (how to get there?) and that the usual artsy-craftsy downtown revival type proposals will just waste money.
The same free ferry you suggested would work for a park as well.
[The same free ferry you suggested would work for a park as well.]
And would presumably be used for one, because the fort area is landmarked and I think any realistic campus proposal would include some public parkland. But Lower Manhattan is not a particularly residential area, and I doubt that business people would have time to take the ferry during lunch hour. Too bad, really--if the island were more proximate to the many residential areas that lack access to parks, I'd say make a park of the whole thing.
[One possibility (don't know if I mentioned it, because I can't scroll back) would be to move CU's business and law schools to Governor's Island (what better location than the tip of Manhattan), leaving more room for undergrads on Morningside Heights; unlike undergraduates, professional students apply to schools on the basis of educational reputation rather than locale, and the professional schools needn't be adjacent to the others. (Actually, I think the City's current proposal
for Governor's Island includes some graduate student housing).]
Yet remember that one of the reasons why the Coast Guard left Governor's Island was the high cost of providing 24/7 ferry service. While Columbia is presumably an affluent institution, I'm sure they too would find the cost burdensome.
My original point was that New York needs a first-rate engineering/CS oriented university like MIT or Caltech. Even a second-tier engineering school, like those found at Purdue or Texas A&M, would be a welcome addition. I simply don't believe that either Columbia or NYU is capable of changing its orientation sufficiently to add a major engineering or CS school - both institutions are simply too used to churning out lawyers and social workers. For that reason, spending (probably hundreds of) millions on new campuses would be solving yesterday's problems.
[Yet remember that one of the reasons why the Coast Guard left Governor's Island was the high cost of providing 24/7 ferry service. While Columbia is presumably an affluent institution, I'm sure they too would find the cost burdensome.
My original point was that New York needs a first-rate engineering/CS oriented university like MIT or Caltech. Even a second-tier engineering school, like those found at Purdue or Texas A&M, would be a welcome addition. I simply don't believe that either Columbia or NYU is capable of changing its orientation sufficiently to add a major engineering or CS school - both institutions are simply too used to churning out lawyers and social workers. For that reason, spending (probably hundreds of) millions on new campuses would be solving yesterday's problems.]
Fortunately we're talking private operation here. A high speed, 24 hour ferry service would require perhaps 4 full time employees, at a net cost of perhaps $240,000/year, plus the cost of maintaining and fueling the craft. That sort of expense is trivial for an instution of this sort; consider that CU already offers 24 hour/day Morningside Heights shuttle bus service as well as regular buses to Baker Field, Lamont Dougherty, and Nevin Labaratories.
Columbia already has a fair engineering school--according to US news, it's ranked 26 academically. But apart from Caltech it's small potatoes compared to the competition:
School/Research Spending/PhD Candidates
1 Massachusetts Institute of Technology $177.0 208
1 Stanford University $87.5 191
1 University of California–Berkeley $89.1 180
1 California Institute of Technology $47.3 58
6 University of Michigan–Ann Arbor $130.6 169
7 Georgia Institute of Technology $148.5 173
10 Purdue University $93.3 164
18 Texas A&M University $106.6 118
26 Columbia $35.7 48
It seems to me that it's more practical to grow an institution than create one from scratch. Put in some spiffy facilities, endow some chairs, and the professors will come, but an entirely new institution would take years to create, cost much more, and lack name recognition.
As to spending money on campuses, I agree that that would be a foolish investment from a practical perspective if it were just a matter of providing better facilities for existing students. But that's not what I'm referring to. I'm not familiar with the situation at NYU, but without even including engineering Columbia could easily expand by several thousand students, along with the professors and support staff, if it had the space and capital support. That would be a significant addition to the local economy.
In response to the idea that NYC needs a great engineering school, there can be no doubt that it is true. New York Polytechnic, in Brroklyn, recently received an enormous endowment from a former professor who was a business associate to Warren Buffet. I wonder if this might be the time for NY Polytechnic to consider a merger with NYU or Columbia, since it might parlay its new-found wealth into the academic major leagues with the aid of the name and connections one of those institutions might provide. What do you think?
[In response to the idea that NYC needs a great engineering school, there can be no doubt that it is true. New York Polytechnic, in Brroklyn, recently received an enormous endowment from a former professor who was a business associate to Warren Buffet. I wonder if this might be the time for NY Polytechnic to consider a merger with NYU or Columbia, since it might parlay its new-found wealth into the academic major leagues with the aid of the name and connections one of those institutions might provide. What do you think?]
That's an interesting idea. I don't know enough about Brooklyn Polytechnic to say. How much of an endowment?
As I recall from the Times' coverage of last year, it was many hundreds of milions of dollars.
[As I recall from the Times' coverage of last year, it was many hundreds of milions of dollars.]
I have a feeling it would take even more than that.
It could be worse. They could become planners instead and write hugely useless MISes and EISes that consumee 5 years, millions of $$$ and not a few trees while the rest of us sit on our hands waiting for necessary public works projects.
Some of us fed up City Planners now believe there is nothing better to do than become consultants and try to get on the MTA handout gravy train. I guess you'll need about $10,000 in seed money for the pols. We have a better chance of getting a $million dollar consulting contract than seeing real transit improvments in our lifetime. All to do work the MTA could, or should, have done in-house, or incorprated in the construction bid.
[he demolition of Penn Station created the preservation movement. Unfortunately, it quickly went to the other extreme: we not only preserve great buildings like Penn Station, but tenements as well.]
And other mediocrities. But isn't that the story with regulation in general? Egregious violations lead to pesky, meddlesome bureaucracies. If businesses (and other entitites) behaved with more social conscience, there would be less need for red tape.
[So, was the old Penn all it was cracked up to be? I know they had compromised the design in the later years by adding intrusive elements of modernization.
The broader question is, do we in fact worship old designs more than we should?]
From what I have read, the old Penn Station was in rather sorry shape for a number of years before its demise. The Pennsylvania RR's deteriorating financial position mean less $$ for station maintenance, as you'd expect. Some of the things I've seen claimed that the station was at its finest in the 1930's. After the frenzy of activity during World War II, Penn Station went steadily downhill during the postwar years.
I was fourtunate to be able to ride the Culver Shuttle before it closed. Two things that stand out most about the line. The line was single track, using what was once the Southbound Local Track. I would use the 13 Avenue Stop. This station was a typical el station. On the mezzaine there were doors which lead up to stairs going to the platform level. In front of doors which lead up to the abandon side there was a big wooden which read: All Trains On Other Side. It amazed me that some people would tatly ignor it and accually wait for a train. Never mind the fact the if they bothered to look down from the edge of the platform, they would seen no tracks. Some of these people would get mad and storm downstairs to yell at the Railroad Clerk. The Fort Hamilton Parkway was the same, but I never got off at this station. station.
I remember as a teen I used to ride it all the time railfanning because I actually thought it was the only line left in the city to use standards. I remember the motormen were always friendly and kept the cab door open. Then one day I got off a "J" train at Bway Junction with the intention of changing for the IND when I spotted from the corner of my eye:
STANDARDS ON THE "LL"!!!
EUREKA!!!
Well, although I still occasionally used the Culver from the West End to the "F" Train, I basically rode the Canarsie Line to railfan the standards.
I remember as a teen I used to ride it all the time
railfanning because I actually thought it was
the only line left in the city to use standards. I
remember the motormen were always friendly and kept
the cab door open. Then one day I got off a "J"
train at Bway Junction with the intention of
changing for the IND when I spotted from the corner
of my eye:
STANDARDS ON
THE "LL"!!!
EUREKA!!!
Well,
although I still occasionally used the Culver from
the West End to the "F" Train, I basically rode the
Canarsie Line to railfan the standards.
I remember as a teen I used to ride it all the time
railfanning because I actually thought it was
the only line left in the city to use standards. I
remember the motormen were always friendly and kept
the cab door open. Then one day I got off a "J"
train at Bway Junction with the intention of
changing for the IND when I spotted from the corner
of my eye:
STANDARDS
ON
THE "LL"!!!
EUREKA!!!
Well,
although I still occasionally used the Culver from
the West End to the "F" Train, I basically rode the
Canarsie Line to railfan the standards.
looks like you've contracted salaam allah disease.
[ looks like you've contracted salaam allah disease ]
Uh-oh. Is that dangerous?
Do I have to put mosquito netting around my house?
Innoculations are expensive and hard to find, but it is safe to say that preventative medical care is advisable for those who do not want to fall victim to this annoying infliction.
Symtoms: repeated postings and/or use of ALL CAPS and excessive exclamation points even though they are not needed.
Nah, just use a good larvacide and empty out your bird-bath.
Wayne
Not unless that running gag villain Sal Monella shows up.-)
No, just get the killfile injection and no more infection.
It was 3 in the morning after a hard night at work, I was half asleep, but determined to get the red font html to work and kept on getting it wrong!
By the way, those standards on the "LL" and the Culver Shuttle had railfan windows that opened and I got a Kosher hot dog somewhere off the Culver Shuttle.
That's why you should PREVIEW messages.
And remember to TERMINATE your color or font selections so that they don't carry over onto the rest of the page.
On one or two occasions, a train of BMT standards would pull into Lorimer St. with the front storm door being held shut with a 2x6 jammed diagonally across the doorway. Apparently, that storm door wouldn't lock. But if the storm doors on the BMT standards were powered, wouldn't they stay closed anyway? Or was the power feature disabled during rebuilding?
04/10/2000
[On one or two occasions, a train of BMT standards would pull into Lorimer St. with the front storm door being held shut with a 2x6 jammed diagonally across the doorway.]
I've seen that many times, although you may have seen the classic "shoe paddle" doing the honors. Never saw that on the D-Type storm doors.
Bill Newkirk
I presume that practice wouldn't be allowed today.
Funny you should mention that. Broadway Junction is where I saw the BMT standards for the first time, on July 20, 1967. Frankly, I was unimpressed. Let's leave it at that. I will say I feel differently about them now.
Yes, I too have found memories of the Culver Shuttle. I rode it about a week prior to it's demise.
Most of those memories were gathered from my high school days when -- I have to admit -- I cut class on occasion and became familiar with the system. That was also the time I "discovered" the South Brooklyn Railway. I never knew such a thing as a Kings County freight line existed until I did those mid-day excursions on the F train and the Culver El(at that time I was living in Flatbush and the Brighton was my home line).
Doug aka BMTman
This line could've been saved, had anyone gave a damn. Thru service with a restored northbound track might have re-energized this line.
Going back to a thread a couple of months ago, if the MTA had known in the mid-1970s what a disaster the Manhattan Bridge was going to become a few years later, they could have save the Culver, built a couple of flying junctions at either end, and hooked up the West End service to run via Church Ave./Jay Street and the Rutgers tunnel instead of via Fourth Ave.
It would have allowed two Sixth Ave. lines to use Rutgers, and cut the number of lines using the remaining link over the Manny B from 3 to 2. Plus, it would have allowed local and express service to Manhattan between Chruch and Jay without getting the people at Carroll Gardens all worked up.
Oh, and it would have made the ghost of Mayor Hylan smile to see his IND Park Slope line recapture another BMT route to Coney Island.
04/04/2000
"Going back to a thread a couple of months ago, if the MTA had known in the mid-1970s what a disaster the Manhattan Bridge was going to become a few years later, they could have save the Culver, built a couple of flying junctions at either end, and hooked up the West End service to run via Church Ave./Jay Street and the Rutgers tunnel instead of via Fourth Ave."
This is a classic case of the TA shooting itself in the foot with a cannon! Those stations two stations should have been removed, lay down a new track on the center of the structure and paint the structure. Preserve the structure for emergency moves only. Now that the structure is down, buildings are popping up on the ROW. TOO LATE!!
Bill Newkirk
I couldn't agree with you more. The BMTs policy was that any asset they owned they retained. The Chestnut Street connector, Broadway Ferry stub, etc all stood long beyond their period of use. Much of this stuff was lost during the war, as scrap.
Imagine if the Bway ferry stub survived.... the recent bridge rehab would have been a non-event.
Chestnut St. connector?
I'm not sure but wasn't that the flying junction between the Jamaica El and the LIRR Bklyn line? There used to be LIRR trains to Long Is from lower Manhattan over the Williamsburg. (Using the MP41's which were the LIRR's Rapid Transit cars resembling the Low V's)
That's the one.
04/05/2000
{Chestnut St. connector? }
Commonly known as the Chestnut Street Incline. This was the connection between the LIRR's Atlantic Branch and the BRT Broadway-Jamaica line. This is how the BRT ran their "gate cars" to the Rockaways in the summer and the LIRR ran their MP-41's to Chambers St. This connection closed Sept.17,1917, but the structure stood until World war II and was removed for scrap. There is still a small remnant of this connection on the (J) line. Don't know between what stations but there is a single girder in the center of the structure for a track to allow a crossover.
Bill Newkirk
Is a Chestnut Street Incline ROW tour in the Future?
avid
Not without a time machine.
The T.A. would have save a ton of money on overtime alone just by keeping the line open as a connection from Ditmas Avenue to 9 Avenue. A switch at the south of Ditmas Avenue would have allowed work trains from the I.N.D. to go directly to 36 Street Yard from Ditmas Avenue, instead of going around Stillwell Avenue or going into Coney Island Yard.
A friend of mine was a motorman on the Culver Shuttle line in its last days. He told me some interesting anecdotes.
Apparently at night the line ran like a taxi service. The one train would be kept at 9th Avenue and the crew would sleep in the crew room. If a clerk sold any tokens he would call the crew room and the train would come out to pick up the passenger. They would key open one door and take the passenger whereever he wanted to go. They wouldn't bother stopping at intermediate stations or go all the way to McDonald Ave if the passenger wanted to go to 9th Ave.
The line was a favorite of crews working doubles/overtime since the night runs in particular were so easy.
Conrad, although I definitely believe you that your friend told you that I think he was either exaggerating or pulling your leg because I'm sure there were as many people getting on at Ditmas changing from the IND as getting on at the 2 middle stations.
When I first started on the job, you still had motorman and conductors that worked that line. The schedule was only followed on paper only. Crews would reguarly blow trips or just widen out the headway, so that they would reduce the number of trips.
When I was a teen I used to ride it alot to ride the Standards because I thought that the Culver & Franklyn Shuttles were the only lines that still had Standards. (I was wrong, the 14th St Canarsie Line-"LL" still had 'em and when I found out I started riding that line instead!) As a railfan I would be at the railfan window and strike up conversation with the motormen. I remember a few saying it was the best line to work since it had the most layover time. Of course as a teenaged railfan I never understood that. I figured the more time driving the better!!
When I was a teen I used to ride it alot to ride the
Standards because I thought that the Culver &
Franklyn Shuttles were the only lines that still had
Standards. (I was wrong, the 14th St Canarsie
Line-"LL" still had 'em and when I found out I
started riding that line instead!) As a railfan
I would be at the railfan window and strike up
conversation with the motormen. I remember a few
saying it was the best line to work since it had the
most layover time. Of course as a teenaged railfan
I never understood that. I figured the more time
driving the better!!
Perhaps I should have elaborated and said that his stories concerned the midnight service only. He claimed it was not uncommon for each intermediate station to have only 2-3 registrations per overnight shift.
You make a very interesting point, though, I'm not certain what the folks at Ditmas Ave did late at night. Obviously they could get off an F train and head to the shuttle without ever being seen by a token clerk. Hence my friend's stories become suspect, as you said.
Perhaps it was common knowledge to tell the token clerk at Ditmas Ave you wanted a shuttle train, or perhaps the crews did maybe every other trip, as Mr. Cool J said, I don't know. My friend is long since retired, he told me these anecdotes about 1979 or so.
BTW, I recall sometime before they tore the structure down there was some plan for a linear park on the old SBK r-of-w. Guess that never happened. Was it just an excuse to get rid of the el? I do remember seeing the roadbed being used as impromptu bocce courts though!
The shuttle would have been a neat place for a headway recorder. Years ago on the Mattapan line had one at Mattapan on the trolley wire. The operators learned late at night that all they had to do was climb on the roof of the car and trip the recorder with a broom handle. It took a few verified complaints of hour-long waits in Milton for a trolley to rectify the situation!
The broom handle is a great story, but that's all it is. A headway recorder is simply a trolley contactor. The wheel/slider must contact a shoe to complete the circuit and send the signal. What the operators probably did was to either pull up far enough to trip the contactor and then either back up, pulling the pole as the car went under the contactor, or use the front pole on a double ender (like a Type 4 or 5) to trip it.
Unless the operator possesed a metal broom handle, it doesn't work and it's really messy!
The switch brooms have a metal tip at the end of a wooden handle for cleaning out girder rail grooves. I'm certain that is what they used to bridge the gap between the wire and the headway recorder.
The Brits has this web site that has the profile of major rail projects. New York is listed. But how can the site justifiy NY Transit has only four lines?
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/new_york/specs.html
Also, where do they get the city population of 13.2 million from?
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/new_york/specs.html
Peace,
Andee
If it weren't for the MTA logo and designation, I would guess the four lines they're talking about would be the IRT, BMT, IND and PATH. But even if you just went by the major north-south lines in Manhattan, there would still be five lines -- Eighth Ave., Seventh, Ave. Sixth, Ave. Broadway and Lexington Ave.
Maybe they are dumping NY Subway, LIRR, MNRR, and SIRT together. Still the information is misleading as the web page talks about subway projects.
...and for the number of cars on order, it says 200. Aren't there over 1,000 R142's on order?
1,040 IIRC.
One thousand EIGHTY.
1,460 if you count the option orders on both.
Anyone heard anything on these [the option orders]? Perhaps it is too early to call.
Wayne
If you click on "return to main profile," the profile contradicts the specifications and says that the system has "25 interconnected lines"
Maybe they mean IRT, BMT, IND, and PATH?
As for the population being 13.2 million, maybe they took in the entire metropolitan area? Or counted the people and rats?
[As for the population being 13.2 million, maybe they took in the entire metropolitan area? Or counted the people and rats?]
The NY Metro Area's population is about 19 million. And if you counted the "track rabbits," you'd be up to about 100 million.
A few weeks ago, I complained that radio "traffic and transit" reports usually give all kinds of detail about the roads, and then typically throw in a perfuntory "transit on or close to schedule."
Todd Glickman among others explained that the reason for this was that the only source for transit delays would be the TA itself, whereas the status of roads can be seen from the air.
Well, WNYC seems to have altered what they say a little bit in order to reflect this.
Over the past few days, I have been hearing local "Morning Edition" host Mark Hilan give the traffic report, and then say that there are "no reported delays" in transit.
Of couse, I wish that it *were* possible to have extensive, detailed radio transit reports. But, given the inherent difficulties, I am glad to hear WNYC use the more precise language of "no reported delays" in place of the unjustifiedly conclusory "transit on or close to schedule".
I haven't heard this anywhere else yet, but I hope it spreads.
Ferdinand Cesarano
What would happen to an engineer if he/she missed a station stop on a regular run? Would that person be disciplined or written up? Last night I was on the 5:50pm train out of Penn Station with the first stop being Bayside. As the train got nearer to the station, the train just kept going until the engineer realized that he/she had pasted the station. We finally all got off at Douglaston and had to wait 15 mins for a westbound train to bring us back. Could the engineer put the M-1 in reverse?
I often take that train but didn't last night. Was any kind of explanation given?
As usual, no real explanation was given because that would admit to a mistake, which they would never do. The conductor just apologized for the inconvenience and directed us to go to the westbound platform to return to Bayside.
Yes-they can go in reverse. If the overshoot the station by a couple of feet they can back uo so all cars are on the platform.
Could - yes. To an M-1 or M-3 there is no difference in foward or reverse.
Would or Should - absolutely not. It's hard enough to back up a bus or truck safely but 10 or 12 85 foot cars just wouldn't be done. In order for it to be done, the brakeman would need to 'flag' the engineer back from the rear car.
However, from the sound of things, if the engineer realized his mistake and threw the train into emergency, he could be a half mile past the station by the time the train stopped (depending on speed). T'is wiser and safer to go to the next station & hope no one is irate enough to report it.
The engineer slowed the train down midway between the Bayside station and the Cross Island Pkwy. bridge. As you said, the engineer just decided to go to the next station. Yes, there were plenty of irate customers, when are there never on the LIRR. It must have a been a long day for that engineer to have made that mistake. Lucky for all of us it we not raining yesterday evening.
Fortunately it's not a common occurrence although it happens often enough. I was recently riding a LIRR train that normally stops at Woodside. I was facing backwards, chatting with the engineer when I noticed that we had entered the station and the train was still on the post. Realizing that it was too late, I chided the engineer by saying, "Oh ^%%^#&, are we skipping Woodside today?". With that the train went into emergency and we put 4 cars out of the other end of the station. However we did stop and everyone that had to, did get off. More common is where the engineer will forget and make an unscheduled stop. That can be just as annoying when you are tired and want to get home.
I wonder if the frequency of missed stops on the LIRR has any correlation with:
A) the engineer's door being open; and
B) the door being open and the engineer chatting.
Actually, there's probably no need to wonder.
Chuck
Well on this train the door was open, but the engineer was not talking to anyone at the time.
[A) the engineer's door being open; and
B) the door being open and the engineer chatting.]
Next to the lack of non-resident parking at many LIRR stations, that is second on my list of "pet peeves" about the LIRR
Bob
lirrhistory.com
A strong circumstantial case can be made of your argument, however, it is only circumstantial. I spoke to this particular engineer for nearly 2 years and this was the first such mishap. If my talking to the engineer was a detriment to the safe operation of the train, then so should be the use of radio communications, which the engineer must always be listening to.
We've all operated motor vehicles and have spoken to passengers. I'm sure Todd G. can tell us that in the cockpit of jetliners, there is occassional casual conversation. DO captains of ocean liners ban everyone from the bridge of their ships?
If you are looking for a culprit, look to confusing work programs, look to boredum and look to fatigue as the culprit. I'm quite sure based on my own personal observation and my own personal experience, those are far more detrimental to safe operation of a train than an open cab door and/or polite conversation.
Boredom and fatigue is it, and a good argument for ATO. I've missed an occasional exit, and daydreamed past my subway stop, plenty of times. But I will say this -- I've never had a missed stop on the subway. The difference is that the subways (I believe) always stop at every station when in regular service, while the LIRR does not.
I've been on subway trains that have blown by stations, signals and work gangs. Cab door closed, no radio playing and the train operator just dozed off. Boredum and fatigue.... But if there was someone actually talking to the train operator, perhaps there would not have been those mishaps.
The engineer on my train a few weeks back, you should have seen him.
Talking with the cab door open, prop against the storm door, smoking, talking to his friend and not even watching where he was going.
Steve, I can add that FAA regulations require that conversations in the cockpit of commercial aircraft flying below 10,000 feet be limited to those necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft. Jump seaters (i.e. visitors to the cockpit who are there with the permission of the FAA and airline) are reminded to remain silent until the plane is above 10,000 feet (and again when decending below 10,000 feet) unless it is something of a critical nature.
While I have had many jump seat rides (yes, with permission of the FAA and airline) I can't say that I've seen any missed stops :-)
I have an interesting tale about "missed stops" on airlines.
There was one flight, to say "Chicago," for the sake of the story (I forget the actual city). Well, the flight's destination was Midway airport but the pilot decided to land at O'Hare instead. He didn't realize his mistake until he pulled up to the terminal.
:-)
A few years back, Delta had 2 unrelated incidents back to back where pilots actually landed at the wrong airports. Incidents were days apart as i remember it.
That is nothing. I heard 2 days ago a russian pilot mistook a highway for the airport runway. Nearly crashed his tupelov134 and 80 passengers
One of those, IIRC, was a flight scheduled to land at LGA that instead touched down at JFK. At least they were in the same city! The other flight was out in the midwest somewhere and the airports weren't even in the same state.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wouldn't put radio communication in the same category as conversation with a passenger. One is a necessary part of safely operating the train, and one is, well, a diversion.
I wasn't meaning to imply that conversation should be forbidden, or that the door should be closed at all times. There's no "line in the sand" over what consitutes non-distracting chat and an engrossing conversation. Obviously, there's a need for the engineer and crew to communicate -- whether over the radio, "channel 4", or in person. And, the P.R. of being friendly with passengers and small children often goes a long way towards customer satisfaction.
At the same time, I have a real problem with engineers simply chatting it up with off-duty colleagues, or just riding with the door open. It would seem logical that, at least at night, the light coming from the interior of the train would significantly reduce the engineer's ability to see what's happening out the front window. Not to mention the obvious potential for distraction that chatter holds.
I recognize that in many situations there's little the engineer can do in the event of an emergency. I don't know the stopping distance for a 12-car crowded LIRR train going 70MPH, but it's probably beyond the line of sight on most LIRR stretches anyway.
Still, the fact that the engineer frequently has more than a thousand people depending on him to operate the train safely means that he/she should at least give the perception of being concerned about safety. An engineer who misses a station stop -- like a conductor who opens on the wrong side -- simply wasn't paying enough attention to their job, and was putting lives at unneccesary risk.
Chuck
Charles conducters dont open doors on wrong side. If it ever has happened it is clearly the fault of signals. Dont laugh. I remember it happening several years ago and Peter Vallone was screaming about it and Transit said it was a signal failure. As far as trains running stops becuse of engineers it never happens either. Just never happened since that would mean writting an incident report and bad publicity. I remember Conducter Steinbach telling me about such an incident during rush hour on a day he was scheduled for a safety hearing. The train was kept in service albeit with supervision the whole trip
If a subway T/O did the same thing you guys would fry him/her.
Peace,
Andee
Look, Andre, please don't speak for me and I won't grunt for you.
If and when the subject is raised legitimately, I'll respond.
My Dear Mr Kreisler,
This forum is no place for insults.
Peace,
Andee
[If a subway T/O did the same thing you guys would fry him/her.]
I don't know what official policy would be, and I'm certainly not trying to minimize the inconveniece of a skipped stop on the LIRR, but the fact remains that skipping a stop on the subway is indicative of a bigger blunder than would be the case on the LIRR. With the exception of a couple of skip-stop services, a subway train is supposed to stop at every platform. It's pretty clear under these circumstances that a T/O who misses a station has been extremely inattentive to say the least.
Things are different on the LIRR and of course on other commuter lines as well. At least during rush hour, some trains are locals and stop at every station, while others are expresses and skip many of them. It's easier to understand how an engineer can get confused and think he's supposed to skip a particular station. For instance, in the situation that started off this thread, it's possible that the engineer usually operated a train that skipped Bayside, and didn't realize until too late that he was supposed to stop there.
This brings back those fond memories of my flowering youth. I'm on this R/10 "A" express headind to Howard Beach . WE're at Hoyt, and an announcement squawks out of the add on P.A. boses that had been installed. 'This train is taking the Local track , making Express stops ONLY! So off we go and we go through the next three stops, local stops. Then we approach Nostrand Ave. and slow , justas we did at the three previous station , but thats all , the T.O. keeps going.
Then we hear from the P.A. " Hey Man , you gonna stop this thing anywhere?" We proceeded thru Kingston-Throop and finally came to a halt at Utica Ave. I thought is was great, we were making nice time, but so other weary travelars were making creases on there faces.
I guess the lower level of Nostrand just didn't register as an Express stop.
Stuff Happens
avid
Back in '84, I was on a Queensbound 'E' in the middle of the night, intending to get off at Roosevelt. The train went right through Roosevelt without stopping, an act made particularly galling by the fact that we were running express on the LOCAL track. To rub further salt in the wounds, we kept going nonstop on the local track all the way to Continental without the operator realizing his mistake and perhaps atoning by stopping at Elmhurst before too much damage was done.
The operator and conductor were confronted by an angry mob at Continental. We were basically told to take a flying leap and catch a train back to Roosevelt. When I called it in, the customer service rep was similarly apathetic.
One morning, the '7' stopped at Queensboro Plaza, the conductor made the proper announcements, and the DOORS NEVER OPENED. (Of course, there was an 'N' patiently waiting across the platform!) This was almost repeated at Court House Square, if not for people on the platform bellowing at the conductor to open the freakin' doors, idiot!
Several times on the '1/9' and 'J/Z' rush hour skip-stop services, the crew apparently forgot which train is supposed to stop at which stations.
Don't get me started on BUS DRIVERS.
Random drug testing!
avid
During the Rego Park parking garage collapse when the Queens Blvd line was split in two, any and all trains were running on any lines. A 6 car R46 "E" train that had come off the G was running as a shuttle from 71st to Jamaica Ctr. The train skipped 75th, Union Tpk, and Van Wyck Blvd on the local track. The train stopped at the middle of the platform (4 car marker?) at Jamaica Van Wyck. The conductor told him to keep going over the PA, and he proceeded to Sutphin! At Sutphin the conductor instructed him to pull up to the front of the platform. He did, and the doors opened. Many disgruntled passengers that day.
I remember once I was on an F train coming from Coney Island. The train went express from Kings Highway to 18th Avenue. We were on the local track the whole way, and didn't slow down until we were approaching 18th Avenue. It reminded me of how LIRR trains pass stations on the platforming track at full speed, blowing the horn and stuff like that.
I can't forget the time I was on the LIRR to Jamiaica and we were scheuled to stop at Forest Hills. T/O over shot the station by 3 cars. We stayed at the station for a good 15 mins while the conducter kept saying over the P.A. "No good Charile. No good at all"
Metrocard.cjb.net
The first two cars on a train stopping at Forest Hills were closed. The engineer stopped so that the closed cars made the platform. Only people in the second 2 cars could exit.
Another time the first 2 cars had been closed, but were opened due to crowding. At Kew Gardens and Forest Hills the 1st 2 cars overshot.
Once, because of a hurried connection at Jamaica, they decided to Double Stop at Kew Gardens and Forest Hills to save passengers the trouble of going through 4 cars, especially with those impossible to open end doors between pairs. One person at Forest Hills thought he had missed the train and was calling someone to tell them he would be late. He was surprised that he had gotten a second chance to board the train and yelled a "thank you" to the conductor.
Here's the plan:
The system runs on a two track loop, e.g., connect the Lex and the 7th Ave via South Ferry and somewhere in the Bronx. There are only two trains: one on the clockwise loop, one on the counter-clockwise loop. The trains are the length of the loop. There is no front or back of the train because it too is a continuous loop. (There is no operator either.)
There is only one station. It is, you guessed it, the length of the entire system. However there are entrances at every street corner (automated fare collection). The station has no name, but tile mossaics inform passengers of every street along the route.
Here's how it works:
You enter the system at any point along the route. The train is standing with it's doors open. The chime sounds and the doors close. It then moves forward seven blocks (or some other fixed distance) and stops. You can get off seven, 14, 21, etc. blocks further along the loop than you entered.
I haven't worked out how much it would cost to construct this theoretically perfect system. :)
Bill
For the curves on this loop, gap fillers would be installed on the train and extend before the doors open.
What happens when one of the trains goes Bad Order? What happens if (God forbid) somebody gets attacked on the train? What do you do when it's time for maintainence?
This would not happen in a perfect system.
Righteo!! However, if man builds it, it breaks sooner or later. Nobody walking around today is perfect. Nothing lasts unless you take care of it. And every machine mankind has ever made wears out and is either fixed or junked.
However, as a flight of fancy, it's a winner!!
This morning my F and my wife's F about an hour apart both crawled through the tunnel and I saw at least 3 or 4 track workers hugging the wall as the train went through the tunnel, I know there isn't usually work done durng rush hour, so what was broken???
They must have really liked the wall a whole lot.
;-)
Sarcasm:OFF
after the recent daily news article highlighting my accomplishments, i received a phone call from mustapha mond, leader of brave new transit world... he offered me a job as consulting tutor at the department of hatcheries and reeducation... i went down and was given a tour of the facilities...
in the department of hatcheries all new infants had to listen to a tape telling them how lucky they were to be born in the era of the r-142... this was going to be the happiest time on earth... railfan windows were no good... nobody wanted to look out the front window... everybody wanted to watch the message board in the train... red is a bad color... silver is a wonderful color...
i was also shown the facilities of the department of reeducation for older transit buffs... they were put in a darkend room and shown pictures of the r-142's which through the wonders of digital editing actually seemed to be operating... in the background was an audio feed explaining how wonderful rapid transit would be in the year 2008, when the r-142's would be entering regular passenger service...
i really wasn't interested in working for them and was not surprised when a background check of my postings on the subtalk message board proved that i would not be an ideal candidate for the job... in fact i was warned by mustapha mond that if i didn't embrace the new i was in danger of being sent for reeducation myself...
.....yea...dont forget to tell them ""heypaul".... when the air conditioning fails on those old junk 142s that you cannot
open up any side window or even a front window like you could on a R-21-22. !!! side windows on r-10 bmt B R-1-9s !!.!
salaam, you are getting all bent out of shape over
the issue of sealed windows... i have it from up
high in the design and testing department, that each
car will be provided with 4 fire axes to be used to
knock out the car windows in the event of an air
conditioning failure... the fire axes will be hidden
away carefully, so as to avoid unauthorized use by
any mass murderers or troubled postal workers...
yea>!! ....the TRANSVERSE-CAB-CAR-CLUB.....will be happy to hear this !! because that will be the only way
you and I and anyone else will be able to open up any windows to get in some fresh air !!
LOL
Folks--
Was in Newark yesterday and managed to pick up a copy of the new light rail schedule. Some things to note:
a) Schedule is show effective April *17*. I guess the weekend of April 15-16 is a tryout period.
b) BOTH branches will operate at 15 minute intervals, 7 days a week, from 5:30 AM until approximately 11 PM. There is NO difference shown between weekday and weekend schedules. Therefore, trains will run every 7-8 minutes between Exchange Place and Liberty State Park, every 15 minutes between Liberty State Park and West Side Avenue, and every 15 minutes between Liberty State Park and East 34th Street in Bayonne.
c) After approximately 11 PM, trains will run at 20 minute intervals through the entire system. The trains from West Side Avenue will operate as shuttles to Liberty State Park.
d) It appears that trains will lay up overnight at West Side Avenue and at East 34th Street, but not at Exchange Place. (Of course, that's from reading the schedule. It's possible those trains may run light back to Liberty State Park at night, and reverse the trip in the morning.)
Opening day is coming...
Michael
The schedule is now available on-line at:
http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us/hblrail.htm
(If someone would be kind enough to post the "how-to" for creating an actual link, I promise to save it this time.)
Actually, from the schedule, it appears that most trains will lay up at Liberty State Park overnight. At around 11 PM, there are three runs (operating outside the normal 15 or 20 minute headways) that terminate at or near Liberty State Park. Also, at the end of the night, there are two more runs which terminate at Liberty State Park.
From what I was able to guess-timate, it looks like there are 8 trains in service during the main part of the day. At least 5 lay up at Liberty, and it looks like none at Exchange Place. I can't really hazard a guess on what happens to the other 3 until I have a paper copy of the schedule. Staring at my computer screen for too long just doesn't cut it for me. Guess I'm just not e-ready.
Chuck
The HTML code is
(a href="URL")link text(/a)
Replace the parentheses with the corresponding angle brackets.
Also replace URL with the URL of the document you're linking (keep the URL in the double quote marks), and replace the "link text" with the text you want to appear in the link text
Here's an example of this code at work.
The Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Schedule
Check this out. Here's the code for sticking an image in the link.
(a href="URL")(img src="URL_Of_Image")(/a)
Same replacements as above, this time change the URL_Of_Image to the URL of the image. Again, keep the URL in the double quote marks.
Here's an example of this code at work.
Please note that both are case sensitive. Watch those URLs!
Many thanks. I'll see if I can put it to good use soon.
Chuck
You don't use parentheses, this is how the tags REALLY should look:
<a href="URL">link text</a>
<a href="URL"><img src="URL_Of_Image")</a>
There also some more you might want to know:
<font color="name_of_color">text to be colored</font>
<marquee>text to scroll from side to side</marquee>
Is the MTA selling advertisements in stations similar to the way they do it for cars: selling full or half stations of ad space to advertisers? I've noticed this at the 74th Street (7) and 116th Street (A B C). Is this happening anywhere else?
Is the MTA selling advertisements in stations similar to the way they do it for cars: selling full or half stations of ad space to advertisers? I've noticed this at the 74th Street (7) (Pop-Tarts Toaster Muffins) and 116th Street (A B C) (EAB). Is this happening anywhere else?
How was the tunnel between 33rd Street and GC built, cut and cover? Somehow the old RR tunnel didn't get damaged. Do the tracks split and go around it and is this the reason that the station is on 33rd street?
Arti
The express tracks in the vicinity of 33rd St are lower than the local tracks. This enabled the IRT to tunnel beneath the Park Ave trolley tunnel. I think that section was done using traditional boring methods at that time (hand digging and dynamite). No cut and cover there.
--Mark
But not without problems. One of the worst cave-ins during construction of the IRT was at 37th St. and Park Ave., which ended up killing the lines construction foreman and forced August Belmont to buy up nearby damaged property. Anything that bad probably took out the tunnel at that location as well.
Parsons nearly quit as chief engineer after the incident.
--Mark
Thanks, that was my other theory.
Arti
Transit will not add trains.. In order to add trains they have to pay salaries. Transit hates paying hardworking employees when they could use the money on overpaid underworked management
There has not been a crash in over TWO years. It is very hard to make the public and politicions support a multi billion spending plan without any apperent need. Remember the williamsburg crash? How they needed new signals for billions of dollars? Remember the Union Square derailment? How they hired illegial aliens to fix the signals?
Looks like robert johnson (yes, in lowercase letters) is back spreading his conspiracy theories - I wonder where they'll lead this time!
Stay tuned,
subfan
I agree it would appear that robert johnson is back
Peace,
Andee
[Looks like robert johnson (yes, in lowercase letters) is back spreading his conspiracy theories - I wonder where they'll lead this time! ]
Same e-mail birds_are_fun@hotmail.com
Arti
I know - I first thought it was him from the content; then the e-mail address confirmed it.
subfan
R68A-5200 has asked before
"What color is the floor of 5200"
The answer is that 5200 has tan floors
Oh my god!!! That message still exists? Thanks lincoln. Here's a penny and a 5.
The message does not still exist. I remembered it because Trying to learn more about myself was a response to one of my messages
Yea I"ve been looking too, since the original post. Thanks for the answer.
Be prepared to be challenged about a zillion times.pink,blue,maroon,etc,
8->
Peace,
Andee
I dunno if LIRR's Electric Commuter Cars can go to Hunter's point avenue or Long Island City, but on my last Railfan Trip, I noticed in Long Island City and Hunter's point, there are Tracks with Third Rails. Can anyone explain this?
Yes, the LIRR M-1 and M-3 cars CAN go to Hunterspoint and LIC.
The tracks with the third rails at LIC Yard are now on the south side. They were installed in the early 1970's when through trains of M-1's ran from Hunterspoint to Huntington (and were stored mid-day at LIC).
Years ago, it was the north six tracks at LIC which were electrified, as evidenced by a 1930's photo in "Electric Heritage of the LIRR". There were also station sheds between each pair of tracks (1-2, 3-4, 5-6) in the photo. Capitoning for that particular photo mentioned that the third rail was removed from LIC Yard right after the DD-1's were retired in 1951. When the north side of LIC Yard was electrified, there was some pretty substantial fencing preventing people from entering the yard along the north side. As it was a fairly busy terminal in those days, passengers used the station building at the west end to gain access to the platforms.
As I recall, a M-1 or M-3 does arrive at LIC at about 3:45 pm every day. I don't know if any others arrive during the day.
That one is a deadhead getting ready for the 5 something PM train to Ronkonkoma from Hunterspoint. The high platform at LIC is not near the track with 3rd rail, and therefore the train cannot pick up passengers there.
This is true. The trainset sits on the southern most part of the yard.
Given the astounding amount of service to LIC, why doesn't the LIRR just leave one electric platform (2 tracks), and run LIC -> Hunterspoint Ave? Seems to be a better idea than rebuilding the yard - there's just not much service to there - I don't know WHY LIC still exists myself...
Train storage.
Exactly. In the morning, the yard is full of bi-levels.
So does that mean the 5:29 Train to Ronkonkoma is a M-3 or a DE30?
Can't tell. I'm on my way home at that time.
TUNE TO NY 1 FOR DETAILS
We ain't all got cable.
-Hank
Summary of the plan:
o NYC gets an extra $300 million to study a full length Second Avenue subway, instead of studying just part of it.
o Any construction would occur in the next capital plan, when the MTA is very deep in debt.
o NYC subway fares will back bonds for commuter rail projects.
It is an OUTRAGE!
[Summary of the plan:
o NYC gets an extra $300 million to study a full length Second Avenue subway, instead of studying just part of it.]
So it costs $300 million more to **study** the full line rather than the stubway? Am I reading a Kafka novel???
No, because in a Kafka novel the kiosk/agent booth would be built and staffed but you would be told to wait for some magical moment before entering. Then as you approached your final breath, the gates would be closed and the booth shut.
($300 million for study)
Let's use the 1968 MTA study, then hire the contractor who was building the LA subway for $200 million per mile. Even assuming moderately higher costs, we should be able to get the section to 125th Street built for a $billion.
[Let's use the 1968 MTA study, then hire the contractor who was building the LA subway for $200 million per mile. Even assuming moderately higher costs, we should be able to get the section to 125th Street built for a $billion.]
It's a nice argument--you should really write it up for the Op-Ed Page.
Hire the Willie B contractor. He'ld get it done 6 years early.
[Hire the Willie B contractor. He'ld get it done 6 years early.]
Soon as he's done with his school system boiler contract
The only good news is that the Daily News editorial page called bullshit bullshit. I have written to them several times (with same boring number some of you have seen). There is no way to be sure my warning that bullshit was coming had anything to do with it, but I am satisfied nonetheless.
NY Times and Silver -- Second Avenue Subway Approved. Pataki and the MTA -- just a study.
[NY Times and Silver -- Second Avenue Subway Approved. Pataki and the MTA -- just a study.]
I can't for the life of me figure out why they're being so wish-washy on this. Perhaps they're counting on the crowds from the LIRR extension to produce a customer revolt five years from now.
I know, sorry about that but NY1 does not have a link up. When they do I will provide a hyperlink
Peace,
Andee
They used to have the sound portion of their broadcast streaming via Real Audio at their website ny1.com, but the last time I tried it, the link was inactive.
Surprise, it is on their web site in on-demand video. Just go to http://www.ny1.com/VideoAudio/index.html then go to choose first selection and pick `transit', and then click play newscast. The clip's about 90 seconds long in Real Audio format.
AS PROMISED,
HERE IT IS
Peace,
Andee
[We ain't all got cable. ]
It's on the web
http://www.ny1.com
Arti
I post that transit hasnt had any crashes in 2 years and all of a sudden transit gets money. Coincidence?
OK !!!! here we go.... I might as well post what the transverse cab car club hates the most.... here we go again !!
THE RAILFAN WINDOW ...(get mad ).. now side windows cant be opened any more but dont worry...
I will be there in NEW YORK to railfan vidieotape the 2 5 4 6 7 and hopefully the rockways daylight !!
ok fellow subtalkers ( get mad ) and here comes the flamage !!!..... lets go ..! railfan windows.... right on !!!
just think the motorman will probably be
the ONLY person on-board getting a cooldown
from a hot humid summer day.. why?? cuz
he has a whole entire railfan window to
roll sideways and open that precious door..
while the rest are stuck packed in tight
and jabbed with sealed-up windows sweating
like mere pigs...
so how much R ur Railfan videos? what lines did u tape?
Does anyone know how crowded a 7
train going toward Flushing is at 8AM on a weekday while crossing the East
River? Or any other examples of commuting in the reverse peak direction?
Most of those going outbound in the AM are probably heading for buses to the suburbs. Most of the city's employment outside Manhattan is near Manhattan -- ie. Long Island City, the Hub, Downtown Brooklyn. The two exceptions are the two airports, which are not hooked up to transit.
Most of those exiting and Prospect Park station in the morning are kids heading for Bishop Ford H.S.
How serene is a IRT 1 or 9
wallowing north into westchester..
now THAT's a thought!~
[How serene is a IRT 1 or 9
wallowing north into westchester..
now THAT's a thought!~]
I took that line north to school for years. Always plenty of seats, and in those days only half the trains went past 137th St. They were only eight cars long, too.
Morning reverse peak express trains on Queens Blvd line have only a few empty seats, sometimes standing room only. Local trains can either be crowded or completely empty, due to 20 minute waits for a G, then immediately behind is the R.
Afternoon reverse peak on Queens Blvd line are half empty (only in cars at ends of train, center cars have standing room only).
Afternoon reverse peak on flushing line are almost completely empty. (I have never seen reverse morning rush on 7, but I would imagine it is the same).
Afternoon reverse rush on Sea Beach, Bay Ridge, and Culver line is pretty empty as well.
All this talk of empty trains makes me think of the area Donald Trump wants to build on at the west side . I think it refered to as the westside yards . Maybe MTA needs a day storage area to await the evening rush?
Lets kick this dog arounr for a while.
Is it big enough, how to reach it?
who or what lines use it ?
What reverse peak service gets Cut?
Yad yad yad yad....
avid
There's already a West Side Yard right across the street from the Javits Center that serves the LIRR.
Do you mean the area next to the Joe Dimaggio Highway, near where ABC has a studio?
--Mark
yes
avid
I reverse commute from my house in Woodside to Queens College. I take the 7 to Main Street for the Q25/34. Sometimes the crowds compare to peak direction travel, sometimes it isn't.
I sometimes take the 7 across town in the am to get off at Grand Central. I've never seen more than a handful of people stay on the train to Queens
Attention all Broad Street Subway riders:
Starting yesterday or today, Track 4 (generally northbound local) was closed
between the crossover south of Olney Terminal to the crossover north of Olney
Terminal for trackwork, hence all northbound trains stopping at Olney will come
on track 3 (the express track).
are there any museum train runs planned there of the 1928 broad street subway cars??
maybe they have thier own webpage ??
DON'T COUNT ON IT
If there's one transit agency you can bet will never run a fantrip, museum run, open abandoned facilities or otherwise open or use outdated property, than it's Some Expensive, Putrid Transit System, good ol' SEPTA(or, as I prefer, SEPTIC).
For all the R-68 bashers, time to eat some real humble pie. For March, Concourse shop will set an All-time record MDBF for a Southern Division maintenance Shop. The MDBF when finalized will be over 280,000 miles. The 12 month moving MDBF will be in excess of 125,000 miles. Remember, Concourse Shop has all R-68s.
NOTE: The above statement is made with due pride and with the full knowledge that Mr. Bauman will post his monthly objection to MDBF calculations.
Congratulations, keep up the good work
Question: does the increase in maintenance efficiency mean that fewer spares and required, and more trains can be put on the road in places where lack of track capacity is not an issue?
The reality of the situation is the D line uses 30 trains or 240 cars. Concourse Shop has a fleet of 276 cars leaving a spare factor of 36 cars. With 8 out of service daily for inspection and 4 out of service for projects and scheduled maintenance, that leaces just 6 4-car units as actual spares (provided none are out of service due to mechanical failure. That keeps us comfortable but it's really not a great cushion. The trick is to maitain that cushion daily and that's done through lots of work. Part of the increase in the MDBF is directly related to the extra care and preventive maintenance done to spare trains & cars when not needed for service.
Do they normally rotate the units that are kept as spares, or are the same spares used every day until "something" happens?
Spares become spares most times by a matter of chance unless I request a specific car remain in the yard for a specific reason.
Since Concourse R68 cars are 4-car units, are they like R62s that have spare parts available after marrying into 5-car units?
If so, do spare parts also contribute to high MBDF of Concourse R68s?
Chaohwa
The R-44s, R-46s and R-68As are also linked into 4 car units. I'd like to think that our aggressive maintenance programs have something to do with the fleet success.
I don't think it's so much a matter of extra or spare parts as it is a matter of unnecessary parts. The biggest single factor in the increased reliability must be the elimination of the electric and mechanical coupler. This was replaced by hard-wire and a link bar.
Is that all that connects them, a link bar and a wire? No air pipe?
Yes, in fact an air pipe was added. There are the standard brake pipe and straight air connections. In addition, a Main Reservir pipe has been added. This will help to maintain a more constant main reservoir supply despite the loss of a compressor.
The biggest single factor in the increased reliability must be the elimination of the electric and mechanical coupler.
Really? Suppose ALL the previous failures were due to coupler failures. There used to be 7 couplers per train, now there is only 1. One would expect that the MDBF would instantaneously increase 7-fold with the intorduction of link bars.
This has not ocurred. Your latest figures indicate that the increase is only 4-fold (from 50K to 200K). Also this increase has been gradual over a 6 year period.
This behavior would suggest that the introduction of the link bars has been much less important factor for increased MDBF than has been postulated.
Your 7-1 ratio is not a valid probability calculation. If
all failures that get lumped into MDBF were coupler-related, then
it would be true (approximately, since you neglect the minor
effect of a failure at the head-end coupler which will can
cause loss of motorman's indication).
MDBF is a silly number anyway, like on-time performance. The
real numbers to watch (which are not, AFAIK, calculated by CED)
are Mean Distance Between Critical Failure, i.e. when a failure
causes a condition that non-trivially delays service, and
availability, which is a complicated metric because it combines
MDBF, MTTR and PM scheduling.
When electric portion failures occur, they are generally critical
failures that result in the train being taken out of service and
passengers discharged. OTOH, permanent linked sets will decrease
availability. In order to properly calculate the effects, you'd
have to know how many failures, before linking, were coupler-related
as a percentage of total failures, and then extrapolate based on
the current number of failures how many additional failures we would
have with the extra couplers.
I was trying to ascertain the importance of the link bars on the overall MDBF metric. Clearly, its importance is proportional to the relative incidence of coupler failures. The extreme example that I gave shows the maximum possible improvement for link bars.
Any deviation from that figure can be used to estimate the relative frequency of coupler failures. Suppose only half the failures were actually coupler failures, then the improvement in MDBF would be only 350%. In fact the immediate improvement in MDBF after the introduction of link bars was less than 25%. This would suggest that couplers accounted for only 3.6% of all failures.
MDBF is a silly number anyway, like on-time performance.
Management prefers to use a single silly metric - especially one that is easy to manipulate. It can be used to hide their failures. The beauty of these statistics is that they can redefine them, to demonstrate any degree of management proficiency. The miscalculation of MDBF with the link bar introduction and changing the definition for late trains illustrate this point.
I believe that availability is a better number to use, if a single metric must be used to show the physical state of the operating fleet. My reason is that it shows a broader picture of the entire maintenance process. Availability can also be manipulated so the public won't be protected from management over-achievers.
In order to properly calculate the effects, you'd have to know how many failures, before linking, were coupler-related as a percentage of total failures, and then extrapolate based on the current number of failures how many additional failures we would have with the extra couplers.
I think one can do some "reverse engineering" of the type illustrated above to ascertain the numbers you require. This has the advantage of not having to accept the NYCT's data at face value:-)
You make an interesting point. A train going out of service due to loss of indication caused by a dead bulb is a very simple 30 second repair procedure even when including time train traveling light. A derailment however means the train will take several days at least till it can be returned to service. Also train dude mentioned it takes TWO days just to send the train to yards and return it to service. It would be much more realistic to have percentage of time trains are available for service than amount of miles. The present way a train could sit 3 years awaiting repairs and no one would even care. A realignment of procedures would further help in decrease of unnneeded subway cars. Thanks again for idea
Somehow I've gotten the impression that a surplus of rolling stock is not a mojor problem at this time.
I don't want to get into a debate over that which can not be proven but I said THE BIGGEST SINGLE FACTOR. Nowhere did I say it was the only factor. Clearly by elimiating the couplers, we eliminated far more points of possible failure than just the coupler. We've eliminated bake valves and master controllers. We've eliminated MDCs and key switches. We've eliminated coupler control boxes, electric portion relays, zone relays and cutting valves. By eliminating those components we've also made it possible to modify the was cars are maintained - leading to increased efficiency and productivity. What you need to do is realize that this is not a finished product but mearly a work in progress.
...We've eliminated bake valves and master controllers. We've eliminated MDCs and key switches. We've eliminated coupler control boxes, electric portion relays, zone relays and cutting valves....
I've always thought that the link bars were far more effective for providing spare parts than for increasing MDBF.
30 trains means 60 units. with 6 units spare you have 10 percent spare. Do trains break down so much that you have to keep maintaining them? And do they actually take so much time to fix?
Getting back to a long ago discussion we had about conductor steinbach you said he was only one person and there are 5000 employes in car division True but that is like saying Dave Gunn didnt really get rid of graffitti. It was the car cleaners that did it. True Gunn probably never cleaned a car in his life unless it was for show publicity and conducter steinbach never fixed a subway car but they both set into place a new system with tremendous improvement. Please email me since I am going away for a few days and dont know when I will return
"30 trains means 60 units. with 6 units spare you have 10 percent spare. Do trains break down so much that you have to keep maintaining them? And do they actually take so much time to fix?"
No - you maintain them so they don't break down. What is so much time to fix? How long does it take to repair an automobile? How long does it take to repair a jet? The answer is that it takes time to properly repair a subway car and the time varies depending on the type of repair necessary. Here's a question for you. How long does it take to replace a traction motor?
How long does it take to
replace a traction motor?
Wouldn't you simply swap the truck with a spare, and then send the
blown truck to CI or 207 for overhaul?
Yes it is easier to swap the truck - which is exactly the point I was trying to make. Now, how long does it take to get a truck swapped?
I asked my Dad who worked at 207th Street Shoppe and he said it was a good day's work to get the cars up on the crane and the truck or trucks undone and onto the other car. He couldn't give me hours/minutes but I'd guess it would take anywhere from six hours (for a crack team) and up to do this job.
He gave R10s as an example; he worked on those most frequently.
Wayne
Keeping in mind that the original question was something like "How long does it take to repair a train?". Here is the answer to my hypothetical question. From the time the traction motor is found defective:
1 day to transfer the car to Coney Island
1 day in Coney Island yard to be loaded onto drop-table conga line
One day to change the truck and dress the car.
One day to arrange for the transfer back to Concourse Shop.
One day for the transfer.
One day to bring the car in & make sure everything is tight & right before relaeasing it to service.
That's 6 days if everything goes as scheduled. Other repairs not requiring work in the overhaul shop are dependent on the availability of parts and adequate labor, not to mention space in the shop. I hope that explains why a 10% spare factor is just adequate.
If the defective car were part of a linked set would not the entire 4 car section have to be sent to Coney Island thereby losing 3 otherwise OK cars for the duration?
And in the case of lesser repairs on linked sets: Having to bring in a 4 or 5 car section with only one car in need of work would IMHO, call for some creative use of space in the shop,wouldn't it?
Exactly correct. Therefore when a car is brought in for 'running repairs' we try to schedule other preventive maintenance operations.
Especially in the case of Concourse Shop where we have three 8-car tracks, scheduling of maintenance must be done with lots of planning to maximize the limited space we have.
Other than CI & 207, what other barns currently have the ability
to change out a truck?
Pelham Diesel.
This may come as a suprise but many shops have the ability to change trucks. Concourse Shop has two 50-Ton "Rail Lift" screw jacks that can easily lift one end of a subway car. We frequently de-truck cars to make repairs on the trucks. Truck changes are not done because we don't have spare trucks and transporting the car to the overhaul shop is cheaper than transporting the trucks to the barns. Jamaica Shop has 4 similar jacks and other shops are currently purchasing them.
For those of us who don't have to deal with such things ourselves, it would seem that transporting a truck (which is a lot smaller) would be cheaper than transporting a whole car (which is a lot bigger).
Why is it cheaper to transport the whole car?
Man-hours, I suppose. You have to pay people to load the trucks on a flatbed or flatcar, then pay someone to drive it to and from Concourse. Sending the train requires 2 people to run the train from Concourse to CIY, then they'll probably be bringing back a train that was sent back previously.
-Hank
It depends on how one calculates the cost for a repair. The 6 day repair requires 3 days of car travel or arranging car travel. If the repair were done at the Concourse, one could expect a 3 day turnaround.
If you were to factor in the cost of an increased spare factor - due in part to a bloated MTTR, then loading trucks on flatcars is relatively inexpensive.
Maybe someone should design a small, light-weight frame with a coupler at one end to which one could swiftly and easily attach a pair of trucks. Then couple the fram to the back end of a train thats going there anyone and tow the trucks through the system.
If Amtrak can transport freight behind its passenger trains, why not the TA.
Oops. Pardon the sloppy post. Fram=frame. Anyone=anyway.
Not so coincidentally, we've talked about just such an arrangement. There are a number of safety issues that would need to be surmounted but the real resistance, I fear would come from the TWU. However, if you look at the idea in the light of day, there are some logistical problems with it. They are:
1) The truck(s) could not be dragged behind road trains and would need to be pulled by light trains. Therefore, there would be no savings in moving the truck to the trains VS trains to the trucks.
2) There are only a certain number of spare trucks available and the logistics of having & storing trucks at every maintenance facility would be more costly than the current JIT plan for production of trucks currently used by NYCT.
There are only a certain number of spare trucks available and the logistics of having & storing trucks at every maintenance facility would be more costly than the current JIT plan for production of trucks currently used by NYCT.
Would having & storing trucks at every maintenance facility improve fleet availability?
Yeah, that's what I thought....I remember Jamaica got a bunch
of those jacks. Before this discussion of changing trucks gets
much further, let's remind our viewers that with proper
preventive maintenance such as blowing out dirt from the motors
and changing the brushes before they resemble carbon paper, and with
periodic motor overhaul which gives the armatures a dip and bake,
traction motors rarely blow. If a train is running around with
one car with a traction fault, BFD....still OK for service and
you'll send it to the overhaul shop when it is convenient. Doesn't
make sense to have every inspection shed have major repair facilities.
I'll bet the majority of your road failures that come back in to
Concourse are doors, HVAC and lights?
Absolutely correct on both counts. Doors are the largest single cause of failure for two reasons. First because of their numbers. There are 16 doors & operators on an R-68 while only 2 HVAC units, one brake unit, 4 traction motors, one propulsion package etc. Second is that it's the one operating part of the car that customers actually get their hands (feet, shoulders and asses) on, routinely. As such, they take an inordinate beatng that the other components do not. It's a tribute to Vapor, Wabco & Westcode that they perform as well as they do.
What exactly is a "propulsion package." The controls? Until I read this post I had thought it was a traction motor.
What exactly is a "propulsion package."?
It is another term for a switch group, aka group switch.
It is the set of _stuff_ under the car (contactors, relays,
solid state logic, etc.) that applies power to the motors,
sets up dynamic braking connections, and regulates acceleration
and braking by changing the grid resistor connections. Typically
it is all mounted in a single large box.
It does not include the master controllers up in the cabs, couplers,
train line wiring, grids, traction motors, field shunts, etc.
Mystery solved. Thanks. I'll save my question about field shunts for another day.
30 trains means 60 units. with 6 units spare you have 10 percent spare
There are 36 spare cars joined in 4 car units. Shouldn't that make 9 spare units for a 15% spares?
As usual, nice job!!
--Mark
That's great news. Keep it up!
Every fall the time reverts to standard time and that leads to my question. Some train runs are over 1 hour in lnegth. A train may leave 179 at 0103(approx. time) at 0200 the time reverts to 0100. At 0103 Standard time there would be a second 0103 from 179 or would they hold it for 1 minute to avoid two trains with the same call letters.
If a train has trouble and radios control how would control know if it left at daylight time or standard time unless the crew states the station where they are (or just passed or will approach)
I have two hypotheses:
1. Disambiguation by adding "Daylight" or "Standard" as a suffix to the call sign.
2. The first station that the train leaves after the change over from daylight to standard time and the time it left.
Every train crew has a unique identifying "run number." No two crews on the same line will have the same run number. Plus, a supplemental schedule will have been issued to "patch" the time change.
This way, if crew 106 has the 1:03 EDT train and crew 109 has the 1:03 EST train (as an example), a call from "F-line crew 106 train operator" will be totally unambiguous.
I note NY TA crews have distinct numbers but what about the trains?
In London, for example, every train has a 'Run Number' when it departs a yard for the first time in the morning and retains that number throughout the day until its last return to a yard, even though it might enter and leave a yard during the mid-day hours when not in traffic.
In the movie 'Taking of Pelham 1-2-3', Pelham 1-2-3 was given as the 'train' [identification] Number.
What is the REAL NYCTA practice please? And are these numbers shown in the employee TTs for example.
What exactly is(was) the commuter tax? What did it tax?
I just saw on WPIX channel 11 that NJ and CT commuters no longer have to pay it to get to NY.
The commuter tax had nothing at all to do with transit or transit fares. It was a NYC income tax that was withheld from the paychecks of people working in NYC but whose residence was outside the 5 Boroughs. It applied not only to NJ & Connecticut residents but those who lived in NY State (but outside NYC) as well. It was recently repealed by the State legislature much to the chagrin of Mayor Rudy.
To clarify, the State Legislature (a body only slighly smarter than Salaam W. Allah) repealed it only for New York residents, people living out of state still had to pay it. Now, the courts turned that down and the commuter tax is totally gone.
The commuter tax was partial compensation for the fact that the metro areas poor are bottled up in NYC, where NYC residents had to pay for them. I say partial because it was nowhere near enough to offset the added burden, leading to the higher taxes that NYC residents and businesses pay, and the inferior services.
I think it is only fair that the state now fund the entire non-federal share of welfare and Medicaid expenditures, as nearly all other states do.
Not to mention compensating us for letting all those foreigners (i.e. citizens of Connecticut and other strange places) into OUR city.
Well, not totally gone. For city workers such as cops and firemen who live out of the city there is still the TOTALLY ILLEGAL 1127 tax which means we have to pay the same city taxes as if we were residents. This includes ALL income, even income earned ouside the city such as second jobs or bank interest. (I live in Nassau and had to include my bank interest from a local Nassau bank and even a triple I won at a Vermont dog track on my 1127 tax form) They say we signed for it when we were hired but: There was no choice, either you sign it or not get hired- and...They never explained what we were signing or gave us enough time to read the legalese fine print.
[Well, not totally gone. For city workers such as cops and firemen who live out of the city there is still the TOTALLY ILLEGAL 1127 tax which means we have to pay the same city taxes as if we were residents. This includes ALL income, even income earned ouside the city such as second jobs or bank interest. They say we signed for it
when we were hired but:
1.There was no choice, either you sign it or not get hired- and...
2.They never explained what we were signing or gave us enough time to read the legalese fine print.]
It could be worse - the city could impose residency requirements for all employees, cops and firefighters included (unless there's a state law prohibiting it, which I don't believe there is).
Baltimore tried that one (no increased tax, but you gotta live there) too, but the unions got it fixed so that unless you wanna be a boss (Department Head for the civ's, Captain and above for the cops and firefighters) you can live anywhere else. My brother-in-law works for the City Comptroller's office (writes bond-issue specs and is also system adminstrator (Novell) for his office) and lives in Harford County.
In the NYPD the entry civil service test and the promotional tests they now give extra points for city residency. Since I'm not a city resident I was totally against it at first but then I started thinking, considering how much better the suburban schools are compared to the NYC schools its just an equalizing handicap!!!!!!
Is it worth it to rent a dummy apt and claim residency? Or use friends apt?
I'm sure its done alot with the entry level exam since they are not on the job yet and have nothing to lose but probably done very little on promotional exams. The department will definitely investigate anyone moving from the suburbs to the city before a promotional exam to make sure its a real move and not too many guys will risk their jobs for the few points. Also you know people will definitely drop dimes when they realize other guys are getting extra points for residency and therefore much better list numbers and the other guys live down the block from them in Suffolk or Nassau!! Promotions=more money.
would any one talk? I take a test I would just tell my co workers i took it and maybe what I thought of it. How would anyone know what address I put down If called first it just means I did better. Also from what I saw from my days in transit most just want the day off with pay which is why train operator is open competitive now
It only takes one. Would you take a promotional exam which would result in you either getting the promotion or losing your job entirely? That's really playing double or nothing.
"Dimes"? Are pay phones cheaper out in the sticks all of a sudden? Or are you giving away your age?
A founding pillor of the United states is No taxation without representation. Politicions are taxing but not giving representation. It sounds to me like you might have a very strong constitionial challange. Why limit this just to new york city income tax why not port authority with its tolls tax for non citizens? Get the idea?
Only citizens have the franchise in a democracy. Foreignors pay taxes in exchange for us tolerating their continued presence.
(It could be worse - the city could impose residency requirements for all employees, cops and firefighters included unless there's a state law prohibiting it, which I don't believe there is).
Yes there is a state law. It says that other parts of the state can exclude residents of New York City from taking public jobs, but New York City cannot impose a residency requirement. Yes, its true. It is just one more ripoff of New York City, along with the STAR program, the school aid formula, the Medicaid local share formula, etc. etc.
As to the purpose of the extra points for residency in the Police Department, I'm not sure I agree. It does make sense to have a police force that mirrors the makeup of the population that it polices, and the environment that people live in. But by that measure, however, a cop who grows up in East New York (or Newark) should be getting the extra points, even if he or she moves out to Dix Hills after getting the job. The points should not go to a cop who grows up in Dix Hills (or rural Wisconsin) but moves to the south shore of Staten Island after getting the job.
As long as their making non-residents pay full NYC income tax in the form of the 1127 tax, they shouldn't be giving the extra points to city residents.
[As long as their making non-residents pay full NYC income tax in the form of the 1127 tax, they shouldn't be giving the extra points to city residents.]
NYC income tax is trivial compared to the contribution they would be making to the local economy and the tax base if they lived in the City.
And, in all fairness, the NYC tax is much smaller than the NYS tax on the same income. Not that I wouldn't rather have the money in my pocket.
Well, not totally gone. For city workers such as
cops and firemen who live out of the city there is
still the TOTALLY ILLEGAL
1127 tax which means we have to pay the same city
taxes as if we were residents. This includes ALL
income, even income earned ouside the city such as
second jobs or bank interest. (I live in Nassau
and had to include my bank interest from a local
Nassau bank and even a triple I won at a Vermont dog
track on my 1127 tax form) They say we signed
for it when we were hired but: There was no
choice, either you sign it or not get hired-color="red">DURESS" and...They never
explained what we were signing or gave us enough
time to read the legalese fine print.
I'd gladly give up the commuter tax for City employees -- in return for a residency requirement. The thought of NYC Board of Education employees sending their kids to NYC schools tickles me pink.
But then where would the next generation of teachers come from?
To further clarify:
1. ONLY the CITY's commuter tax was repealed (for state residents) and then struck down (for all).
2. The STATE of New York, of course, keeps its commuter tax.
3. YONKERS, of course, keeps its commuter tax, in the interest of "home rule" (the same argument that was rejected for NYC).
I've been pondering for months where 5 old SMEE Cars wound up, since they no longer reside in Westchester Yard. Well, it seems I found them! By accident! Riding on the BX10 past the Jerome Maintenance Facility on the Paul Av side, I discovered something peculiar that I hadn't noticed previously. I wasn't sure what I was seeing, but I thought it deserved a second look. I walked by the facility and I felt like I discovered a pot of gold. Sitting at the entrance on Paul Av was R-17 #6895, and R-22 #7486. I wasn't sure, where these cars were coming from when I saw them previously, but I know for sure where they are. 6895 call Mosholu Yard home, and so does 7486. Although I didn't see them, I'm sure the R-12/R-14 combo is also stored here along with an R-21 #7267. It looks like there's hope fpr the lost sheep. While their companions went to the scrap line it looks like these cars will be brought back to fight another day. This is a Momentous Occasion. The shop superintendant who left Westchester Yard took the cars with him, and his possessions now reside at the yard on Jerome Av. I'd say a working Museum Train of retired SMEEs is on the way (perhaps for a 2004 celebration?) So let's see: 5 cars, outside of the Museum, plus the 4 inside, we can have a 9 car IRT Train. If there's a spare R-15 somewhere, I'd sure like to know and we can make a 10 Car Train. What significant about the 4 cars in the Museum is that they never ran in a mixed consist together, in the 4 original paint schemes. Certainly, the cars in as delivered paint schemes is bound to make money. What do you think?
-Stef
04/04/2000
Just caught this on UPN Ch.9 news tonight. UMTA intentionally crashed a set of Silverliners into a concrete wall at their Pueblo, Colorado facility. The purpose was to study what happens when passenger cars crash and how passengers can be better protected.
These Silverliners are from SEPTA, a camera close up on the second car revealed car number #245. What a shame! These cars could have been sold to a small time railroad and converted into diesel coaches instead of being ruined. They're Budd built, built to last. Perhaps they could have used those graffittied LIRR M-1's that are being sidelined at Holban yard. Don't know what speed they were traveling when they hit the wall, but considering they were stainless steel, they weren't damaged that bad. End vestibule area got crunched.
Bill Newkirk
[Just caught this on UPN Ch.9 news tonight. UMTA intentionally crashed a set of Silverliners into a concrete wall at their Pueblo, Colorado facility. The purpose was to study what happens when passenger cars crash and how passengers can be better protected.]
It doesn't sound like a particularly useful test. In real life, rail cars aren't likely to crash into concrete barriers - they crash into other rail cars. Crashing the Silverliners into other rail cars probably would have given more realistic results.
There was a longer segment on one of those "news magazine" shows on the networks last night -- I think it was NBC. I think the main reason for the test was to see how various types of seats reacted to the crash. The passenger compartments were loaded with all sorts of cameras and crash dummies, and the video from them was rather intriguing. I think my wife is still a bit P.O.'d at me, because I was pretty much ignoring her while watching this segment.
The train was crashed into a brick wall at 26 MPH. Someone who's a lot better than I am at physics can probably confirm that those results can be extrapolated into a train moving at a speed somewhat higher than 26 MPH crashing into a somewhat movable object. By doing it this way, you save the other rail cars for more tests.
Chuck
Most commuter cars with vestibules have "crush zones" there; these include the detested and despicable (and, thankfully, gone) LIRR MP-75s among other cartypes.
A crash using the M-1s? That might be interesting. I've seen varying degrees of damage involving them, ranging from a little bump (#9621 at Floral Park), a minor impact (#9045 - cowl and bonnet got cracked; on view at HolBan yard) and total destruction (MNRR M-1 after being hit by an M-4; flew over the anticlimber to flatten the M-1 like a pancake - lucky nobody was in it!)
Wayne
too bad they can't
volunteer this act
to the r142's
perhaps a final use for the 110's
You also could crash an R68 into a barrier at top speed. Little damage would result, because it would have been going only 3 m.p.h.
LOLROTF. You can say that again. That's a kneeslapper.
I'd like to see them run a BMT standard into a concrete wall. That car would smash through with nary a scratch and keep right on going.
Let's not start that again, please. Ride the R142s when they go into service. If you don't like them after riding them, then you'll have a reason to put them down. Enough is enough! Stop bashing the R142's until you have ridden them!
I don't wanna wait till they go in service..
I already despise them for the mere fact of
the members they are replacing. Free Speech.
I saw it too.
My first impression - poor Silverliner!!! also note they stripped the traction gear. WHY? That's something that's going to affect the outcome. In fact, the entire insides were stripped.
Also - note the cab got crushed.
But most importantly - note how passengers went *flying*, even though this was a fairly low speed head on.
My guess why - the car didn't crumple. If it crumples (slightly), the car decellerates somewhat slower, and so do the passengers. This is why modern automobiles crunch up in accidents. It's better to slow something gradually (figuratively speaking), then to stop it suddenly.
Of course, this, the tendancy for non articulated cars to go all over in derailments, etc, will be lost on the FRA, who will probbably start requiring seatbelts in trains in a few years.
Bigger, heavier , stronger doesn't automatically mean safer.
Besides - head ons and rear end collisions are very rare these days, and would be even rarer if automatic safety devices were mandatory on *all* heavy rail equipment.
How many head ons or rear end collisions has the LIRR had since they installed ASC?
Well the barrier test is good for determining the effects on passengers inside the train. Unless the drop it off a cliff, that Silverliner isn't really going to get destroyed, but the people inside might. In Europe they have traded structural integrety for speed and economy, so when they get in accidents you don't want to be inside. Remember that German ICE train that dis-integrated. In the Chase MD crash there was also about a 150 mph rate of clousure, but the Amfreets survived relitivly intact and only 25 people were killed compared to over 100 on the German train. Remember that heavier = better. You should try not to absorb the impact, but to plow through whatever you are impacting with. Makes me miss my 1974 Ford LTD.
Explains why the TA/MTA has always favored heavier cars than other systems. (Photos and memories of those wooden cars at Malborne Street might also have played a factor in that over the years)
Now I want to see what happens if a redbird r33 is crashed into that wall. Passangers will go flying and the damn thing will go through the wall like it wasn't even there. They maybe old but they are strong.
No - the body will separate from the car at the beltline and get squished like an accordion beause of the rust factor.
--Mark
I don't know if they're as strong as you'd think.
There's a photo among the R-21/22 types at NY Subway Resources, up at
Morris Park Avenue of one of the 7600 series cars, and it didn't look like it was too strong there.
If you wanna talk strong, think about an R-1/9 type or a BMT Standard........
Yes, but it was hit by a steeple cab.
On the other hand, an R22 work train suffered a pretty grevious injury when it got hit by an R62A at 103d Street. The R62A suffered only a bruised bonnet and broken glass. The R22 was crumpled up pretty bad. Ditto for the R21 vs. the R33 at Utica Avenue portal in 1981 - the older car got the worst of it.
Not sure if the noses of the R33 and R36 cars are positioned differently than their R21 and R22 ancestors...
Side impact is where the Redbirds do better than their more modern counterparts. #8884 (though he bent his frame) did NOT split in two when he picked the switch. Yes, he was scrapped. He bent but he did not break. Had that been an R62 or R62A, you may have had damage comparable to that done to R62 #1440, with carbody penetration. Look what happened to R62A #1909 - at low speed under similar conditions.
Wayne
What happened to 1909?
R62A #1909 picked a switch south of Hunts Point Avenue on November 24 1996 and derailed sideways into a curtain wall. She took a very bad dent in one side and may have suffered frame damage. It did not require she be cut up on the spot like #8884 was but it has her out of action to this day, awaiting disposition or repair.
Wayne
8884 was never cut up on the spot, rather it was chipped on the side to allow clearance for transport to Livonia Yard, 9 track.
And then what became of it? You mean to say it may still be intact? I was under the impression that it had to be cut up on the spot.
-Stef
No. Around 1997, the car was at Livonia. I don't know if it is still there but it was rolled down there on it's own trucks. The car was bent at the frame but by some minor shaving, it was able to be moved through the tunnels to Livonia. It's mate was turned into a silly contraption called a rail adhesion car.
Yes, I've seen #8885, she is a Yellowbird and wears a sign "Gel Applicator Car", usually seen at E 180th Street yard.
Thanks for the info on #8884 - I had been informed that the car was scrapped/cut up on the spot. Perhaps it's still sitting at the back of Livonia yard...
Wayne
The BMT standards have become urban legend when it comes to indestructibility. What else can you say about a car that could take out a row of I-beams or plow through a station sideways and suffer scrapes and bruises, or at worst, a broken light bulb?
In the Chase MD crash there was also about a 150
mph rate of clousure, but the Amfreets survived relitivly intact and only 25 people were
killed compared to over 100 on the German train.
Relatively intact? The diner (Amtrak calls it a "Cafe Car") was mashed flat and coach #21236 was pretty much telescoped by the coach behind it after piggybacking on top of the diner. If the diner was open for business (which it wasn't, thank God) the death toll would have been considerably higher.
As for the ICE train - it fell apart like cheap cardboard. AdTranz - PTUI! You get what you pay for. Too bad so many had to die.
Wayne
I thought I saw the number being 241.....and I thought they said it was going 26 MPH.
I saw the crash and checked my records. The units used were old MP-85 (MA-1B) SILVERLINERS. From what I can tell they still have pleanty left, but does anyone know how many Budds they gave to USDoT? I also know that a few years ago SEPTA still had 5 de-powered PIONEER III electrics. I hope they are still stored at Jenkintown and not in line to be federal test subjects because those cars are historical atrifacts. They were like the first modern MU's and the first (I think) to use all stainless steel construction. Can anyone comment on the status of these great cars and SEPTA's surviving Blueliner?
Who knows. Electric preservation, especially maineline MU stuff, doesn't have any appeal in the US*. You can find plenty of people out there who'll get emotional over some rusted out steamer (there's even talk of an F-40 preservation), but very few who will even think about a bunch of MUs on the scrap line.
The Pioneer IIIs, AFAIK, were more or less failures, slow to accelerate, required manual notching (I'm not sure if they were always like this), and generally unreliable.
They may have been the first all stainless MUs - the Washboards were carbon / stainless composites (a BAD THING)), and I believe beat the MP-85s by a few years. They were also the first "rectifier" MUs, with water cooled ignitrons (technically easier to do). Air blast ignitrons were used in later '85s and the Arrows and other GE-equipped stuff, including the M-2,I believe. The disasterous Westinghouse equipped Metroliners were probbably the first all sillicon MUs in the US (world?).
BTW - there are no EP-5s (first modern US electric passenger loco) around, and AFAIK, all the E33s and E44s (first modern freight electrics) left do not have their main transformers (thanks to the EPA and PCB paranoia - there's still thousands if not millions of PCB transformers in service all over the US)
I'm sure when the E-60s (complete disasters) and AEM-7 (complete sucesses) go, they'll all be uncerimoniously scrapped, along with all the M-1s**. After all, electric equipment isn't important, just the vital backbone of the 3 largest commuter RRs in the US...
*Not so in Europe, naturally.
** Diasater? Success? I'd call the MP-54s a success, and the M-1s were a HUGE step forward in comfort, but I'm not sure about the reliability, and they were never really used to their full potential...
I just heard that Governer Pataki is backing a full length Second Avenue Subway.
Any guess as to how long this will take to build?
Judging from the 63rd street tunnel (how many years behind schedule?)can we expect this to be built this century?
If George decides to run for a third term in 2002, look for them to turn the first shovel of asphalt sometime that year.
That doesn't mean they're going to finish it, just that if it can get a few more votes, you might see some movement, espeically if Bush beats out Gore and wants to toss some federal $$ Pataki's way. If Gore wins, then wait until 2004, when he'll come to New York with Senator Clinton and some vote-getting mass transit start-up bucks.
What I heard on the news, it will take 25 years to build at a cost of 8 billion dollars from the Bronx to lower Manhattan.
[What I heard on the news, it will take 25 years to build at a cost of 8 billion dollars from the Bronx to lower Manhattan.]
As opposed to the original IRT, a line of about the same length which, built at the turn of the century with picks, shovels, and dynamite, took just 4.
LONGER. The line went to 145 Street. Although it went only to City Hall when opened, not to South Ferry, are we really sure that they'll build a Water Street line as opposed to connecting to Nassau Street?
They'd be better off connecting to Nassau Street and the Rutgers Tunnel, as the RPA proposed, rather than building a new line to Nassau Street. There is plenty of Lower Manhattan subway capacity as it is -- the trains through the Montigue Tunnel are half-empty, and those coming down from Willie B are completely empty after Chambers. The Broad Street line is one of the best in the system -- it should be used. A direct link to the Rutgers and on to DeKalb would allow a shortcut to Midtown.
If they did that, it would be best to keep the current four-track set-ups at Chambers and Canal, and use the two north tracks for the Second Ave. connection and from ther through to Nassau Street, while the two south tracks could be used for the J/M/Z terminating at Chambers, since it's less likely someone would actually want to go from Brooklyn to Brooklyn via the Willie B and Montague Street tunnel than go to downtown Brooklyn from Second Ave.
BTW -- I'm posting this message on Netscape 6, and it looks weird typing it out, so I'm sorry in advance if it doesn't post right.
Posted fine.
Not true. During workdays, the 2 stops below Chambers (Fulton and Broad Sts.) are the busiest on the whole line.
The solution I've used in my Second Avenue plans is slightly different: New track down to stations at Chatham Square and Park Row (with transfers at Park Row), and then a track connection to Nassau Street. (The old Nassau Loop tracks are too tight for this use, anyway.)
On the Rutgers link - the way I see it, going through the Rutgers tunnel is the exclusive job of the Houston local(s). Instead, the Chrystie St connection will be shifted completely over to the 2nd Avenue line: the express tracks will link up with the north side Manhattan Bridge tracks, and one branch of the local tracks will be turned onto the Williamsburg Bridge. This leaves the Houston expresses to tunnel into the other part of my proposed system: the Utica Avenue line to Kings Plaza.
The other connections that I have proposed for the 2nd Avenue Subway are track connections from midtown 2nd Avenue to 63rd Street Tunnel to Queens, and 63rd Street Tunnel from Broadway to Upper East Side 2nd Avenue. Transfers would be made at 2nd/Houston, 14th Street, and 42nd/Grand Central Terminal.
Why would you run lines from one residential area to another?
Arti
[They'd be better off connecting to Nassau Street and the Rutgers Tunnel, as the RPA proposed, rather than building a new line to Nassau Street. There is plenty of Lower Manhattan subway capacity as it is -- the trains through the Montigue Tunnel are half-empty, and those coming down from Willie B are completely empty after Chambers. The Broad Street line is one of the best in the system -- it should be used. A direct link to the Rutgers and on to DeKalb would allow a shortcut to Midtown.]
I think you're right. The only problem with doing that is greater walking distance to businesses along water street. But it's far more important to have a real 4 track express from GCT to Chambers--otherwise the line will draw little traffic from the Lex. (If that's absolutely impossible due to budget constraints, they should still trade that final stretch for a 2 track link from GCT to the Bway express above 14th Street, which would provide essentially the same service).
The RPA seems to have overproposed on this one, with a new tunnel linking the 2nd Avenue to the Atlantic Avenue line. With all that excess capacity at Rutgers, Nassau, and the Willy B, it makes much more sense to bring in Airtrains and in lieu of the RPA's high amenity hybrid Atlantic Avenue service, a combination of Atlantic Avenue/JMZ superexpresses, with the former going up the Broadway line while the latter come down to Broad Street.
On April 10, I fired off a skeleton proposal for a privately built Second Avenue line to Community Boards 3, 6, 8, and 11. Obviously, the MTA could not care less about the Second Avenue Subway and I think that everybody at this site realize it. Therefore, a proposal for an elevated line will be molded from this process by the community using either conventional rail, monorail, or cable technology (www.aerobus.com). I plan to unveil the details at the MTA Capital Meeting in June. That may be the only move that could bring the shovels out at this point.
[On April 10, I fired off a skeleton proposal for a privately built Second Avenue line to Community Boards 3, 6, 8, and 11. Obviously, the MTA could not care less about the Second Avenue Subway and I think that everybody at this site realize it. Therefore, a proposal for an elevated line will be molded from this process by the community using either conventional rail, monorail, or cable technology (www.aerobus.com). I plan to unveil the details at the MTA Capital Meeting in June. That may be the only move that could bring the shovels out at this point.]
While I share your skepticism over the government's intentions to build the 2nd Avenue subway, and agree 100% that the best way to do it would be privately (and watch how quickly government agencies turn into defensive monopolies when someone proposes running something privately), I'd say that the chance of a new el on 2nd Ave is something less than zero. The real estate is just too valuable.
Elevated lines are not the unsavory monsters that many community leaders find repulsive. These are new above ground lines using state-of-the-art technology. Furthermore, if the monorail option is selected by the communities as their preferred alternative, the effect may even be less.
This is why I sent that information to the community boards. They will be able to decide for themselves.
The only way to sell a new EL in NYC is to first replace a piece of an old El with new conbstruction using the new technology proposed for the new El. In other words, you have to show everone a sample. My candidate for replacement: that g-dawfull mess at Queensboro Plaza. If you can make that quiet and attractive, you can build an El anywhere you want.
Wow, that would really tie things up for years on two lines going into Manhattan, even if the complex is a gawdawful mess.
If they ever did to a test line, a more likely candidate would be one of the branch routes, like the A going to Lefferts or the 4 at the far north end near Woodlawn. That would limit the overall disruption to the system.
On April 10, I fired off a skeleton proposal for a privately built Second Avenue line to Community Boards 3, 6, 8, and 11. Obviously, the MTA could not care less about the Second Avenue Subway and I think that everybody at this site realizes it. Therefore, a proposal for an elevated line will be molded from this process by the community using either conventional rail, monorail, or cable technology (www.aerobus.com). I plan to unveil the details at the MTA Capital Meeting in June. That may be the only move that could bring the shovels out at this point.
[LONGER. The line went to 145 Street. Although it went only to City Hall when opened, not to South Ferry, are we really sure that they'll build a Water Street line as opposed to connecting to Nassau Street?]
And it gained a few blocks by going across as well . . .
I'm not sure about Nassau/Water Street. I'd rather have them save some money by using Nassau Street then boring a tunnel for four tracks. I think they'll be doing something we'll regret one day if they stick us with a permanent 2 track job.
The reasons for the delay are more financial than technical. No one at the MTA or elsewhere in government wants to make too tight a commitment to this project. (They might be more reasonable if LIRR East Side Access wasn't at the top of the list.)
Los Angeles built 17 miles of subway in 14 years, although that was slow because of financial reasons too. Washington, DC, built a 100 mile system in about 34 years, although not all of it was underground.
As for $8 billion dollars; the Port Authority is spending over $9 billion to rebuilt Kennedy Airport, including new terminals and the AirTrain.
[The reasons for the delay are more financial than technical. No one at the MTA or elsewhere in government wants to make too tight a commitment to this project. (They might be more reasonable if LIRR East Side Access wasn't at the top of the list.)
Los Angeles built 17 miles of subway in 14 years, although that was slow because of financial reasons too. Washington, DC, built a 100 mile system in about 34 years, although not all of it was underground.
As for $8 billion dollars; the Port Authority is spending over $9 billion to rebuilt Kennedy Airport, including new terminals and the AirTrain.]
It makes economic sense under such circumstances to save up and build the project at the end. I recognize that there are fiscal and politial realities here--people need to be fooled into thinking that something is happening right away, and as things now stand local government couldn't sit on cash--but the result is an almost criminally inefficient use of capital that would put any business out of business.
Backing a full length 2nd Ave. line assures it's demise again. It's too expensive to be reasonably funded. The lower pricetag for the stubway would have given it's chances of actual construction a bigger bost.
[Backing a full length 2nd Ave. line assures it's demise again. It's too expensive to be reasonably funded. The lower pricetag for the stubway would have given it's chances of actual construction a bigger bost.]
If the line were built over a 10 year period at the MTA's projected cost of $8 billion/year, the total would come to less than $1 billion/year. That's less than 3% of the muncipal budget alone; a 3% budget cut in all other areas, apportioned as desired, would do the trick, and it's hard to think of an area that doesn't have a lot more than 3% fat. So would a $1 fare hike. So would eliminating featherbedding and overstaffing at the MTA. And why those massive subsidies to provide LIRR riders with astoudingly bad service? The LIRR is terminally ill. Fire everybody in it and give the operation to New Jersey Transit. (I'm a lot more serious than you might think.)
New York State spends $1 billion/year on educating twice as many doctors as the state actually uses. How about using some of that? And while we're at it, replace that steak they serve at Riker's Island with minimially nutritious slop, and when the prisoners riot, use it as an opportunity to keep them off the streets for another year or two.
I could go on, but the problem isn't a lack of money, it's porkbarelling on a massive scale. Everyone from the beggar on the corner to the Mediocrity in Albany is in for his cut.
[If the line were built over a 10 year period at the MTA's projected cost of $8 billion/year, the total would come to less than $1 billion/year. That's less than 3% of the muncipal budget alone; a 3%
budget cut in all other areas, apportioned as desired, would do the trick, and it's hard to think of an area that doesn't have a lot more than 3% fat. So would a $1 fare hike. So would eliminating
featherbedding and overstaffing at the MTA. And why those massive subsidies to provide LIRR riders with astoudingly bad service? The LIRR is terminally ill. Fire everybody in it and give the operation to New Jersey Transit. (I'm a lot more serious than you might think.)]
Not that it should take anything close to ten years in the first place. Public support for the Second Avenue line would be a lot greater if the danged thing could be built in a short enough period of time to actually be useful. Most of the people today who might use the line will have moved away by the time it's actually built, assuming the MTA's preposterous timetable is followed.
[Not that it should take anything close to ten years in the first place. Public support for the Second Avenue line would be a lot greater if the danged thing could be built in a short enough period of time to actually be useful. Most of the people today who might use the line will have moved away by the time it's actually built, assuming the MTA's preposterous timetable is followed.]
Has anybody figured out the cost of tying up all that capital? If they're really going to take that long to build it, they should do nothing until the last five years.
04/10/2000
A full lenght 2nd Ave Subway could never be built in one fell swoop because of the tremendous amount of capital needed to fund this. The line will have to be built in sections until a full lenght is achieved.
Remember Brooklyn's Fulton Street subway? Was it built in whole with a connection to the Rockaways? No, it was done in sections. Why? perhaps not enough capital to fund it?
Bill Newkirk
Wartime shortages too.
[04/10/2000
A full lenght 2nd Ave Subway could never be built in one fell swoop because of the tremendous amount of capital needed to fund this. The line will have to be built in sections until a full lenght is achieved.
Remember Brooklyn's Fulton Street subway? Was it built in whole with a connection to the Rockaways? No, it was done in sections. Why? perhaps not enough capital to fund it?
Bill Newkirk]
Actually, most of the City's transit lines were built in fell swoops, because no private company would do anything as stupid as tying up capital in projects that can't be used. Basic economics: any businessman who suggested a strategy of builidng something slowly would be fired on the spot.
In the case of the Second Avenue Subway, the City could easily finance the project by allocating 2-1/2% of the municipal budget for 8 years. The $1 billion already allocated in state funds would reduce that to 7, or one year longer than the actual construction period.
[Actually, most of the City's transit lines were built in fell swoops, because no private company would do anything as stupid as tying up capital in projects that can't be used. Basic economics: any businessman who suggested a strategy of builidng something slowly would be fired on the spot.]
Which is why you probably won't see many former government employees involved in private real estate development :-)
[In the case of the Second Avenue Subway, the City could easily finance the project by allocating 2-1/2% of the municipal budget for 8 years. The $1 billion already allocated in state funds would reduce that to 7, or one year longer than the actual construction period.]
With the City's overstaffing and monstrous levels of Medicaid spending, making such a reallocation would be child's play.
I think the Long Island Railroad would have had a problem with the city running A trains to the Rockaways in 1940.
Other than that, I agree that starting the upper part of the Second Ave. line is more likely to get the lower part built, but only if it's done in a continuous process, where the planning and contract letting is done as the upper section is being finished, which is pretty much the way things were done between 1904 and 1940.
The negative side is if the upper Second Ave. work, or the LIRR Grand Central connection, becomes "Son of Big Dig" -- a money pit of pork that wipes out any other construction plans for years to come because it's so over budget.
In that case, not building the line all at once would mean funding for lower Second Ave. could fall victim to the public's anger over the first part of the project's cost. Hopefully, if they get the thing started soon enough, the Boston fiasco will still be fresh enough in everyone's memory to create a measure of restraint against the same kind of waste on the project.
[I think the Long Island Railroad would have had a problem with the city running A trains to the Rockaways in 1940.
Other than that, I agree that starting the upper part of the Second Ave. line is more likely to get the lower part built, but only if it's done in a continuous process, where the planning and contract letting is done as the upper section is being finished, which is pretty much the way things were done between 1904 and 1940.
The negative side is if the upper Second Ave. work, or the LIRR Grand Central connection, becomes "Son of Big Dig" -- a money pit of pork that wipes out any other construction plans for years to come because it's so over budget.
In that case, not building the line all at once would mean funding for lower Second Ave. could fall victim to the public's anger over the first part of the project's cost. Hopefully, if they get the thing started soon enough, the Boston fiasco will still be fresh enough in everyone's memory to create a measure of restraint against the same kind of waste on the project.]
Do you know how much they're planning to spend on the entire LIRR GCT access project?
[I think the Long Island Railroad would have had a problem with the city running A trains to the Rockaways in 1940.
Other than that, I agree that starting the upper part of the Second Ave. line is more likely to get the lower part built, but only if it's done in a continuous process, where the planning and contract letting is done as the upper section is being finished, which is pretty much the way things were done between 1904 and 1940.
The negative side is if the upper Second Ave. work, or the LIRR Grand Central connection, becomes "Son of Big Dig" -- a money pit of pork that wipes out any other construction plans for years to come because it's so over budget.
In that case, not building the line all at once would mean funding for lower Second Ave. could fall victim to the public's anger over the first part of the project's cost. Hopefully, if they get the thing started soon enough, the Boston fiasco will still be fresh enough in everyone's memory to create a measure of restraint against the same kind of waste on the project.]
Do you know how much they're planning to spend on the entire LIRR GCT access project?
Do you know how much they're planning to spend on the entire LIRR GCT access project?
4.6 billion.
Arti
[Do you know how much they're planning to spend on the entire LIRR GCT access project?
4.6 billion.
Arti
That's completely insane! We're talking about a 1 mile tunnel and a little terminal. The killer is that you don't really need either, given that *the Metro North tunnels are already there,* as are the lower level platforms at GCT. All they'd have to do is connect the 63rd St. tunnel, convert 2 tracks to LIRR standards, and bring some Metro North trains down the West Side line instead--that would solve the Lexington overcrowding problem at the same time.
[That's completely insane! We're talking about a 1 mile tunnel and a little terminal. ]
I agree, that's why I posted the cost of Eurotunnel (about $7B incl. everything) few weeks ago.
Arti
[I agree, that's why I posted the cost of Eurotunnel (about $7B incl. everything) few weeks ago.
Arti]
And thanks for it--I've used that quote several times. Then too, the Second Avenue Subway would cost more than sending one of three four man crews to Mars. And as someone else pointed out, that $1 billion "study" will cost as much as the new line in LA, which is longer than the stubway.
Also $4.6B for GC access is an estimate, Eurotunnels estimate was about $4.5B. THe main reason for the cost overruns was the uniqueness of the project, tunneling equipment custom made etc.
Arti
I can't believe you are seriously suggesting turning it all over to NJT.... I was thinking the same thing about 10 minutes ago.
[I can't believe you are seriously suggesting turning it all over to NJT.... I was thinking the same thing about 10 minutes ago.]
The Lord works in mysterious ways since he joined that union . . .
This century? Which century is that?
Building a Second Ave subway in this century would probably break all construction speed records, as this century has only 8.5 months left. However, even if 2000 was the real begininning of the 21st. century, I'd doubt we'd see the Second Ave. line in that century as well.
this is something i am looking foward to taking myself and my wife on a short vacation on ..... METROLINK !!
plan to park and then ride from GLENDALE near the R -30s !! (yes)!........
then catch a ride south thru orange county to the OCENSIDE terminal then guess what ??
transfer to the SAN DIEGO TROLLEY !! Finally on the return trip the train has a yes.............RAILFAN WINDOW !
I'm not one to nitpick, but the San Diego Trolley does not connect with Metrolink at Oceanside or anywhere else. However, you can catch a Coaster train, San Diego's commuter line, at Oceanside, and ride that to Old Town station in San Diego, where direct connections are possible with the trolley. Enjoy your trip.
ok then why did the metrolink operator tell me this ?? i looked at thier website called them at thier.. 800
number this guy comes on and tells me oceanside has a san diego trolley connection.. !!??
what i am saying is i called thier number !! ( oh well ) ...
Their information operator obviously made a mistake. They are only human.
Metrolink does NOT have schedules south of Oceanside. From Oceansde to San Diego, the "Coaster" is the commuter agency. Unfortunately, connections between Metrolink and Coaster are NOT very good. The "Coaster" uses the same type of equipment as Metrolink, though their locomotives are different (Metrolink uses F59 and F59PHI units; Coaster uses F40PH-2C's and a pair of leased Amtrak F40's).
If you wish to take a one-seat ride from Los Angeles to San Diego, there is the Amtrak "San Diegan". They run either Amfleet/Horizon single-level equipment, or California Amtrak cars. Yesterday (4-4), one of th trains passed my residence and had a brand new "Surfliner" car in it (now we know why the new Amtrak F59PHI's got painted the way they did -- the "Surfliner" cars match!) The "Surfliner" cars appear very similar to the California Amtrak cars but are painted in a bright blue and silver paint scheme.
thats why i said the operator at metrolink was wrong and gave me wrong information ... i agree with your post !
thank you !!
I will be staying in San Francisco for one week next month and I was hoping the subtalkers would be able to answer a few questions for me.
Is it easy to take transit from the airport to downtown or should I bite the bullet and take a cab?
Is MUNI photo-friendly or do I have to hide my camera?
Where are the Streetcar yards and trolleybus garages?
Have the new ETBs gone into service yet? How many Flyer E800s are still around?
Are there any one week all you can ride passes?
What are some good spots for streetcar shots?
Is there any interesting transit in Oakland?
Thanks in advance and Regards from Toronto
Rob
Rob
Check this link for SF Muni information http://www.transitinfo.org/Muni/.
>Is it easy to take transit from the airport to downtown or should I
>bite the bullet and take a cab?
There's a shuttle bus to the BART Colma station but there's no direct rail, yet. It's probably easier to use one of those hotel van services.
> Is MUNI photo-friendly or do I have to hide my camera?
Never had a problem...
> Where are the Streetcar yards and trolleybus garages?
The streetcar facility is on San Jose Ave. in the Balboa Park section of SF (next to the Balboa Park BART station or take the J K or M streetcars. If you take a look at the ETB wire map (offsite link) you'll see the locations of the ETB depots.
> Are there any one week all you can ride passes?
Yes. You can buy them from vendors or at hotels or at the cable car ticket booths among other places. They are scratch-off folders, not electronic tickets. They allow use of all MUNI lines (bus, streetcar/metro, and cable car lines BUT NOT BART) for the time selected. BART has their own farecard system.
> What are some good spots for streetcar shots?
Check out our SF pics (San Francisco) for some ideas. Around the Geneva car house and LRV facility will have some good shots. Alongside the Mission Dolores Park will have some nice views. There's some interesting vantage points along the J's PRW between Mission and Geneva. Two tunnels, with views at West Portal station and both ends of the Sunset Tunnel. The area around the Mint Division yard will have some nice shots. And don't forget the PCC's on Market St. and Embarcadero.
> Is there any interesting transit in Oakland?
Just BART (in subway) and buses...
-Dave
Looks like I may be visiting Toronto in May. When do you pln on being in San Fran?
--Mark
To answer your questions:
There IS transit from the airport to downtown, but certain routes do not allow baggage on board. Samtrans is the operator, buses have red/blue striping on a white body. There IS an "Airporter" bus from outside the baggage claims to a downtown terminal for around ten bucks. These are Greyhound-type buses. They also drop at a few downtown hotels too.
Take all the pictures you want of Muni, they don't seem to give a crap about anything. I've even walked right through their shops and nobody said anything but "Hi, how's it going?"
The streetcar/trolley shops are near the "Balboa Park" BART station. You can also use Muni streetcar routes J, K, or M to get to the shops. There's only one for the rail system. Cablecar barn is at Washington & Mason; it's right on the Powell-Mason or Powell-Hyde cablecar line. Muni historical vehicles are kept on trackage alongside the U.S. Mint, near Church & Duboce on the J or N lines.
Trolleybus garages -- Presidio division is at Presidio & Geary. Potrero Division is in the area of 18th & Potrero. Only two of the new ETB's are being tested; still plenty of the Flyer E800's. I'd guess that 85-90% of the original 345-unit fleet is still around.
Yes, there are weekly passes, the best way to do it. I think they run $12.00.
Good spots for streetcar shots? Anywhere along Market Street (upper end less traffic) or the new Embarcadero Line. Mostly PCC's in these areas. For Boeing's out around Balboa Park. For Breda's, anywhere on the N line.
Interesting transit in Oakland? Not in my book, but others may have something they like over there.
>Is it easy to take transit from the airport to downtown or should I bite the bullet and take a cab?
Depends what you consider easy. From SFO, SamTrans route BX goes to the Colma BART station, KX goes downtown but does not allow luggage, 193 goes to Daily City BART, and 292 also goes downtown. From Oakland airport, the AirBART shuttle goes to Coliseum BART, so does AC Transit line 58. Line A goes to downtown SF after taking a detour through downtown Oakland.
>Is MUNI photo-friendly or do I have to hide my camera?
I've never has any problems.
>Is there any interesting transit in Oakland?
Depends on what interests you. Other than BART theres just buses and a few transbay ferry lines. Amtrak trains run down the middle of the street through Jack London Square. The most scenic AC Transit line I've been on is the
59 between Jack London Square and the Montclair district, it's not very interesting from a transit perspective, though.
It's my understanding that the 2nd Ave. Subway is going to be built to B Division specifications. If that's the case, then how is rolling stock placement and trainyard storage/maintenance going to take place unless the line is tied into B Division Tracks? The only logical choice would seem to be the N/R connection via 63rd St. if the line is built only as far as 125th St. Even if the full line is built in Manhattan, this 63rd St. connection seems necessary.
I think that's the likely connection point; there may be another one downtown near Grand Street (legend says Grand St's outside walls are easily torn down revealing a wider platform and a trackway).
The full-length 2nd Ave subway is planned for in the state's next budget. Now all they have to do is get the feds to cough up a measly 12 billion dollars and we'll be all set.
Looking forward to a "big dig" of our own ....
--Mark
Not even. The 1950's version was fully funded with a huge bond act, but that money was "diverted" to other projects. I'll believe it when the first R32 rolls up the new line (and they'll be running that far into the future too!)
[Not even. The 1950's version was fully funded with a huge bond act, but that money was "diverted" to other projects. I'll believe it when the first R32 rolls up the new line (and they'll be running that far into the future too!)]
That means money was diverted at least two times. And when the next fiscal crisis hits, and we realize that the MTA took on an onerous debt during the Pataki years?
Gee, maybe we should raise taxes and just build the damn thing already.
[Gee, maybe we should raise taxes and just build the damn thing already.]
Really. Or raise the fare, or cut useless expenditures, or something. Considering that NYC gets shafted on the money that goes through Albany, it would be in the City's interest to raise the peak fare so that commuters (and City residents both) paid a fairer share.
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*limited time is whenevery this post get pulled from the board.
**Free, as long as I get some form of money.
***The nice wind that YOU won't be able to enjoy because it's a TRANSVERSE CAR!
ok! whats the point ?? FLAMAGE .... or political - incorrectness maybe the SPELL CHECK goon squad !!
whatever it is please keep us informed ! I can hardly wait too see where this goes ....... 142s junk ..... and ends !!!
Now I know this was written before I wrote my calm down message but I had to comment on two things.
You have made comments to other posters about using foul language and how that may be offensive. But you yourself have renamed the thread using a number that many people could find offensive. I could think that it was just a random number indicating a tremendous cost, but I have seen this before.
Second you complain about the flamage that the previous message contained, then you added to the fire with your last comment of the quality of a certain new car class. Don't expect the flames to stop when you wave them on.
Your postings putting down the R142s are exactly the same as people shortening your name - it is done to get a rise out of people.
I personally have no issues with you or any other posters. I only have issues with threads and this one is getting close to my limit...
-- David
I just knew I shouldn't have answered this phone call. Yep, it's just what I thought more nonsense :-( Some folks have entirely too much free time on their hands.
.... First you have to rise and shine... and then pay your fine... then ride the r-142s ....DUMMY-LINE..!!!
I remember singing the "Dummy Line" song in kindergarten.
I.. heard it in day camp 1959 ..!! " riding on the dummy (r-142) on the dummy dummy line..!!
Yes I am Robert Johnson
Thanks for your honesty.
-- David
Thanks for the kilfiles!
-Hank
Several months ago I mentioned to youi that on the search engine you can only search for years 1995-1998 You said that you would eventually get to it when you redesigned the web page. Since then you inserted the password program but the dates remain obsolete
The second question I have is since 1995 when this site has started hard drive capibility has greatly increased. A 10 gig hardrive is pretty much standard and even 73 gig drives are available. Why cant you get a new hard drive big enough to hold al the messages for reveiwing? Messages dont take up a lot of space
It's not a matter of the disk space it's a matter of the ability of the software to search the messages without overwhelming the machine. The existing SubTalk software puts a pretty high load on the server and I don't think it is adequate to use for searching over 100,000 messages. Some better system needs to be designed and written and it is simply not a priority of mine at this time.
Dave does a great job with this site. We all appreciate new features on the web pages, and the many great photos he adds. Please remember that this is a labor of love with little or no reward. (In fact it costs him money!) Anything he accomplishes for us is great!
Gerry
Dave, have you ever considered using the kind of software that railroad.net uses for its forums. Each response is apparently added to the end of the file containing the thread being responded to rather than being stored as a separate file. Less flexible. You load whole threads, not individual postings. But it's got to be less of a burden on the processor since there are fewer items to search through.
Wednesday April 5 6:47 AM ET
Norway Town Evacuated As Train Explosion Feared
By Lise Merete Olaussen
LILLESTROEM, Norway (Reuters) - Police evacuated residents from two towns near Oslo on Wednesday, fearing a giant explosion after a train carrying more than 100 tonnes of propane gas collided with another train and caught fire.
More than 2,000 people, including schoolchildren and hospital patients, were evacuated after the collision at 1 a.m. (2300 GMT Tuesday) at Lillestroem station, about 20 kms (12 miles) north of the capital.
Police cordoned off an area stretching 800 meters (yards) from the station, and also covering a part of the neighboring town of Raelingen.
They warned residents the train could explode in a gigantic fireball that could destroy nearby buildings and send a shower of debris and glass cascading over the area.
No one was hurt in the crash, which happened when one train inexplicably ran into the back of another on one of Norway's busiest lines. One of the trains was carrying 104 tonnes of liquid propane.
``We believe that all the people are out of the area,'' deputy police chief Asbjoern Gran told Reuters. ``An explosion would be extremely violent.''
One propane tank was ruptured in the accident and was on fire. Firefighters chose to let the blaze rage, reckoning it would eventually burn out without exploding.
The main danger was that a sealed tank on the next wagon, containing about 44 tonnes of propane, could be heated by the fire and explode. Firefighters tried to cool the second tank by hosing it with water.
Blaze To Last Hours
``It could take many hours for the fire to burn out,'' Gran said. It was unclear whether residents would have to spend the night away from their homes, in sub-zero temperatures.
All rail services along the line, including express trains to and from Oslo airport north of Lillestroem, were cancelled. A total of 25,000 people live in Lillestroem and 15,000 in Raelingen.
The crash was Norway's second major accident this year. Nineteen people died in January when two passenger trains collided head-on in south Norway, apparently after a driver ignored a red light. Streets of Lillestroem, whose main claim to fame is a soccer team in Norway's elite division, were virtually deserted and blanketed with snow in crisp sunshine.
``It's kind of scary because we still don't know what's going on,'' said 17-year-old Anne Torbjoernsen.
Others complained that police had waited until after dawn before deciding to evacuate residents. Police said they initially believed that the fire would be brought under control.
Tuesday April 4, 6:31 pm Eastern Time
Reinforced train seats offer more protection
By John Norton
PUEBLO, Colo., April 4 (Reuters) - Tests by federal safety officials on Tuesday showed that reinforced seats in passenger trains can protect people from being thrown about the rail car during an accident.
In a test crash of two passenger rail cars conducted by the Federal Railroad Administration at the Transportation Technology Center, the second car derailed slightly but it appeared that most of the dummies aboard either remained in their seats or near the seat.
In a previous test crash test in November, the only dummies that remained in their seats were ones wearing seat belts.
In Tuesday's test, the seats had stronger reinforcement on their pedestals and the backs of the seats were constructed differently to absorb the shock of the dummies striking them, engineers said.
The tests are carried out to verify what engineers expect will happen in rail crashes as they try to come up with safer rail cars.
The test was conducted at about 26 mph, but because the rail cars are crashing into a concrete-reinforced steel wall the impact is the equivalent of one train hitting another at about 70 mph, engineers said.
``Rail transportation is already a very safe mode of travel. We intend to make it safer,'' U.S. Secretary of Transportation Rodney Slater said.
Slater and other federal, local and state officials witnessed the crash test on the Colorado prairie, about 30 miles east of Pueblo.
Inside the cars were 13 crash test dummies in a variety of seat configurations, some wearing seat belts and some not.
In addition to the dummies, there were about 200 other monitoring devices to test the force of the impact and other results such as derailment and lateral movement of the cars.
Kristine Severson, a mechanical engineer with the DOT's Volpe National Transportation Systems Center, said facing rear offers an advantage to passengers, but only if the seat is well secured.
Next November a test crash will be carried out with a passenger train striking a freight locomotive.
Friday March 31 12:48 PM ET
CSX Rail System Found Dangerous
WASHINGTON (AP) - Concerned about a series of derailments, federal railroad inspectors found deteriorating track conditions in the CSX Transportation system used by passenger, freight and commuter trains up and down the East Coast.
CSX President Ronald Conway ``was very appropriately appalled by what we have found ... and he committed to work very diligently to address those concerns,'' George Gavalla, the Federal Railroad Administration's associate administrator for safety, said today.
Gavalla said his agency had audited CSX in 1997 and became concerned because it hadn't seen a reduction in derailments and other problems. A new safety audit was launched in February.
``The main concern was the lack of quality control in CSX track inspection maintenance programs,'' Gavalla said. He said the railroad has promised to initiate safety programs that go beyond federal standards.
Problems were found in track conditions used by Amtrak and commuter rail lines and in one case insufficient repairs were made following a derailment, Gavalla said.
The audit found a 60 percent increase in track-caused accidents over five years on the 22,700-mile system, according to a report in The Washington Post.
The review found many instances in which the distance between the rails had spread wide enough to risk derailments.
Two such wide areas were found in the District of Columbia on the line used by Amtrak, Virginia Railway Express and all north-south CSX freight trains. The defects were repaired immediately after they were found.
Defects were also found in Florida, Pennsylvania and Maryland
Two of three recent track-caused derailments were caused by wide track, including a minor derailment of Amtrak's Chicago-Washington Capitol Limited at Connellsville, Pa., on Jan. 30.
Federal safety standards dictate the conditions of railroad track including the gauge, or distance between tracks. Railroads are supposed to inspect their tracks twice a week and, when problems are found, either make immediate repairs or slow traffic over the area until it can be fixed.
The special safety audit is not a rare event, Gavalla said. ``We always have inspectors on every railroad virtually every day.
RICHMOND, Va., March 31 /PRNewswire/ -- John W. Snow, chairman and chief executive officer of CSX Corporation which owns and operates the largest freight railroad in the eastern half of the United States, responded to a front-page story in today's Washington Post concerning Federal Railroad Administration findings of track defects on the railroad's 23,400 route-mile network.
``There can be no compromise on any safety condition on our railroad,'' Snow said. ``We recognize some problems and openly welcome the FRA's draft report in the spirit it is offered -- a genuine and sincere interest in assuring even greater safety on our railroad.
``I have studied the draft report and discussed its findings personally with FRA Administrator Molitoris,'' Snow added. ``CSX will continue to work closely with FRA officials and our labor unions to ensure safe rail operations. Our people, the Amtrak riders and commuters who are carried on our network, our customers and the communities we serve must have complete trust in our commitment to the highest safety standards.''
CSX has repaired or is in the process of repairing all of the defects identified in the report. ``Where work is in progress, operations have been modified to ensure safe movement of trains,'' Snow noted.
Snow will be personally heading an internal company review of all track maintenance and improvement programs to make sure these efforts are fully effective.
In the past four years CSX has invested more than $4 billion in railroad capital improvements. Of this total, $791 million has been spent on rail replacement and repair, cross ties and surfacing of the roadbed.
CSX Corporation, headquartered in Richmond, Va., operates the largest rail network in the eastern United States, and also provides intermodal, container- shipping and contract logistics services.
SOURCE: CSX Corporation
Yes arti I am Robert Johnson
Thursday March 30, 2:53 pm Eastern Time
U.S. train-bus collision claims third child
CHATTANOOGA, Tenn., March 30 (Reuters) - A third child has died from injuries suffered this week when a train slammed into a school bus at a crossing on the Georgia-Tennessee border, a hospital spokeswoman said on Thursday.
Amber Pritchett, 9, died late Wednesday at Erlanger Medical Center in Chattanooga, said hospital spokeswoman Sharon Cahill, who declined additional comment.
Kayla Silvers, 6, and Daniel Pack, 9, died at the scene of the collision on Tuesday. An 8-year-old boy and a 5-year-old girl remained in critical condition, and another boy was in fair condition at the hospital,
Rhonda Cloer, 34, the bus driver whose daughter is in critical condition, was discharged from the hospital on Wednesday.
On Thursday, a team of National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) investigators postponed a reenactment of the crash due to bad weather at the site where the school bus was sliced in half by a fast-moving freight train near Tennga, Georgia, about 30 miles (48 km) east of Chattanooga.
Investigators examined the train's ``black box,'' which recorded the engineer blowing his horn and applying the brakes before impact, and a video camera aboard the bus that monitored the students.
Residents near the crash site, marked only by a sign with no crossing gates or warning lights, said it could be difficult for drivers to spot oncoming trains because of a curve in the tracks and a clump of encroaching pine trees.
NTSB Chairman Jim Hall said he was curious about any followup to recommendations from a 1998 safety board study on crashes at rail crossings that lack warning lights or gates.
``I'm very concerned, and I personally do not believe any passive grade crossings should be crossed by a bus carrying school children,'' Hall said.
The average cost of warning light systems are about $150,000 per crossing.
The train involved in the crash was a 33-car CSX Corp.freight hauling finished automobiles from Cincinnati, Ohio, to Tampa, Florida. It was traveling 55 mph (88 kph) just before the accident, the company said.
For many years of traveling on the Fulton Ave line , when ever I'm at East New York I wonder why the station walls were built with the indentations {(4) at the east end of the platforms.
I know the Bayridge Branch rus underneath, but why the indents?
Another question always pops into mind when I'm in that area is "Where were the punchouts east of the station planned to go to , to the LIRR, to Canarsie, to the Bway LIne?
Exactly what station are you referring to? Broadway/East New York, Utica Ave., Rockaway Ave.???
You mention having been in East New York. That's a geographic area -- not necessarily referring to one of three stations within that particular neighborhood on the Fulton line.
The Bay Ridge Line runs underneath the Fulton Line only at the Broadway-East New York station location (this also goes for the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Branch). I'm not sure what those indentations you saw mean on the Fulton line. Perhaps another SubTalk can shed some light here.
Doug aka BMTman
Under the Broadway-East New York Station.Ther \e are what appears to be 4 sealed up sections on the walls of both local tracks, at the eastern most end of the station. I,m guessing the Bayridge branch is beneath this level . But why not a smooth wall?
Then moving east into the tunnel are what appeare as pre-built cut outs. Where was the intended destination, LIRR under Atlantic ave, the Canarsie LIne , The Jamaica/Bway line?
avid
Ps Variety Magazine hinted at a series of "Heypaul Spy Thriller Movies"soon to go to Contract.
[Under the Broadway-East New York Station.Ther \e are what appears to be
4 sealed up sections on the walls of both local tracks, at the eastern
most end of the station. I,m guessing the Bayridge branch is beneath
this level . But why not a smooth wall?]
Avid, I'll have to pay more attention on my next ride back from downtown, and do alittle detective work at the eastern most end of the platforms.
BTW, much appreciated your "Heypaul humor" there with those "Spy Thriller Movies". At least there are some of us who frequent here who were born with funnybones ;-)
Later,
Doug aka BMTman
It has been revealed from unnamed sources that Leonardo De Capria will play a youthful "HEYPAUL" in the coming blockbuster "Secrets of the Mistress of The Welded Ribbon.
a page from the Screen play revealed...
He stood restlessly, shifting his lean muscled weight from side to side in a hungry anticapation. A light bead of persperation began to form above his upper lip. His palms began to become ever so slightly moist. He new in his every fiber , THE time was soon. His sixth sense could detect her approach. Was it her scent? Was it the soft wisper of air moving across his cheek? Then he caught a glimpse of her as she came steadely closer. There romance grew from a casual meeting several years earlier.
She was older then he, but only by a scant five years. She had watched him grow from an child to an audacios young man.It was she who brought him from a mere boy to a full man. This occasion was like many before. While his mind drifted she took the opportunity to glide before him . There was a certain glow about her that only he could see, it was for him, and him alone.She presented herself to him , for his inspection, he liked what he saw. He took a few trembling steps towards her. She sighed, his breath was in short deliberate gasps.She opened herself wide to him . He moved closer and gently forced himself deeper and deeper into her welcoming warmth. He was totally engulfed as she closed around him.A wonderful warm sense of wellbeing , of belonging flooded his every fiber. She was the first to move,to slowly rock, and he followed her every movement like a mirror. The dance had begun, they were like one as their frenze began to build. She began to moan , to heave , and to sigh as she led the pace. He was quick to follow with moves of his own while in his mind he wished it could go on forever. A ritual was being played and not for the first time.The movements reached higher and higher until a crescendo had once again been achieved. Slowly the tempo lessened and her grip on him loosened. Then the final hearbreak , as he tumbled out ,as her grip was now too loose to hold him to her.They both stopped, she sighed , he turned his back to her as she waited for more, but none was coming. He left her alone and in the dark .
He climber the stairs as she called to him from the dark. He couldn't even look back. The F" train moved on to the next one waiting her favors.
"CUT" "THATS A TAKE"
"MAKEUP MAKEUP DO SOMETIME WITH HIS FACE, HE"S ALL SWEATY"
"WARDROBE GET HIM A FRESH SHIRT"
"YA DID REAL GOOD KID!"
Avid
Very clever!(and not for the kiddies!)
Have you ever taken serious creative writing courses? I think you have a real talent there.
BTW, I hope heypaul gets to read it before he killfiles this enter site.
Doug aka BMTman
Nothing formal,in my wild youth I was always getting into some kind of situation where a good line of B.S. was able to smooth things over.
Then ,when part of the Green Machine ,I learned to see the absurd in a humorist light. I guess things sort of fell into place like dominoes, things that can be take two or more ways.
Heypaul has printed a denial, of coarse this was to be expected after it was revealed by unnamed sauces , DEMI MOORE will play Heypaul in one of his Master of disguise characters in the coming Multi-star block buster Movie "Secrets of the Bavarian Sausage Gruppen Fuerer"
Inside sources are trying to root out more info on this developing Expose'
avid
Items found in his Motormen cab have been Traced to Roswell, Nevada, about 1947-48 . It has time travel capibilities! That explains his success on the Stock Market.
Just in from disgrunteled gardener in the film capital of Queens, Astoria, an unofficial page of the screen play . "Secrets of the Bavarian Sausage Gruppen Fuerer" with Demi Moore as "Heypaul" Master of Disguise.
After returning from the Merkel meat market, our hero unwrapped the 1/4 lb of Braunswiger and read the coded message . He had to use his "Platform and Mezzenine Inspectors secret decoding ring". His lip quivered with excitement as he slowly read the message a fifth time.He immeadatly began to set his afairs in order, he put the cat out, he drained a bottle of flat Ginger Ale. He went into the bedroom to the nightstand and put the lid on a tin of salted Peanuts. He was ready.
He headed to the "Motormens Cab", a quick look around, wait a minute , he dashed to the bathroom and flushed the toilet. Now he was ready, back to the "Motormens Cab", A few quick adjustments, check the pressure in the Dump Sludge Eliminator, OK , Extra fuses, OK, Bottle of Carl Ehmeres Mustard with Horseradish , OK . SET....
He pushed the Break Controler the full distance, compressed air could be heard venting, Ligths dimed twice, flickered , then came on full and very very bright. An ear splitting noise accompanied by a mild and pleasing vibration seized the "Motormens Cab" . Now an extremely brillant flash of light similar to the arc of light when a slow moving subway moves over a switch during a snow storm rocked the "CAB". The smell of OZONE was in the air. Not Ozone Park, OZONE the gas. You know O3.
When the ringing of the ears deminished, and vision slowly went from Deep Purple to a dull flat orange , the door was opened. Sun light streamed in , and out stepped "Trudy von Spitzen-Winkler" virtious Sausage Maiden. She had arrived the village of Donglefloggen, Bavaria.
When she turned around to take the measure of the area, she saw she had just exited from "Das Postal Wagon Kaputan". As she bent over to gather up her baskets of Grossenwurst, her ample cleavage caught the eye of her chilhood benifactor, Hans Kindermauler.
Hans ran across the tracks of the shortline feeder branch of Das Clomper und Krashen Railway. He clutched Trudy to him in his Special way and remarked " Was ein Biggen Sausage Maiden you have become my little liebschen. You must kommen zu miner hausen for lunch, ya? Since Trudy was a little sausage maiden of eleven or zwelfe , every Tuesday when Frau Kindermauler would go from Donglefloggen to Munich for Hans's Pretzels ,trudy woud join Uncle Hans for lunch. Unfortunatly, every Tuesday , Hans painted all the Kitchen chairs except one . So Trudy had to sit on Uncle Has's lap. This was also the day Uncle has woul clean the big mirror , and it was always on the opposite side of the kitchen table. Uncle hans was such a creature of habit. He loved to play little food games with Trudy. When they finished there lunch Trudy would go to visit her friend Carl Frankenmuller, a young sausage maker very close to Trudys age. She loved his sausage, it was always firm, tastie and Fresh. Carl enjoyed her visits, it was when he would show her his meat. He was proud of his meat, and so was Trudy. She loved to tell the other Sausage maiden of Donglefloggen how nice and firm and choice Herr Frankenmueller meat was. They never got to see his meat, it always went to the Sausage Gruppen Fuerer. He would then take to the Big citieslike Berlin.The Suasage Gruppen Fuerer was always trying to find out Carls secret to keeping his sausage firm and fresh. He alway wondered "Was ist ein secret engreediant. " He must trick Trudy into finding out and telling him.
As Trudy left the kitchen to visit Carl , she saw Uncle Hans run for "Das Hausen inns das bock aus ein Hausen. He must have eaten too much?
Ya das ist it, Uncle Hans Gulppen grossen grub.She must tell Uncle Hans to stop wearing Hids Railway beltbuckel , it always poked her when they had lunch on Tuesdays. As she walked through the village all the old men came to her and said good morgan frauline Trudy, virtious Sausage Maiden, Its always good to see you. It's also good to see you took our advice to save material and use less on your lovely new blouse. Ya ya you are ein gut frauline!When she arrived at Carls, she found him in tears. She ran to him, and through her arms around his head and held him close. She asked " Was ist mit uns, you big blibberschlaffen." He answered that he had been drafted into the Bavarian Field Kitchen Fusseleers.
This had to be the Work of Otto Grossenschnitzel the Sausage Gruppen Fuerer. He had many friends in such places , that could cause this to happen. Carl handed Trudy an Envelope, Grabbed her, near the table, she grabbed his meat and as the kissed his sausage popped. She ran back to "DAS Postal Wagon Kaupten" slammed the door behind her , and hit the controller.
When Heypaul came to , he was stretch across the bed in his dingy room. The room the Agency set up as a Safe house. In his had was an envelope. Scrawled across the front "Das Secret ingreediants mit das sausage for Grossenwurst,spleckenwurst und weiner inn das blanket
avid
Roswell is in New Mexico, not Nevada!!!!!
He must have confused the space alien crash site from the space alien storage site. An uderstandable mistake.
BTW - Did you know Sam Donaldson went to school in Roswell shortly after the reported mystery ship crash. Ever check out Sam's eybrows? Coincidence, or not?
We used to have a young lady who worked as a teller in the bank near my house. This was in the early 1970's, and this young lady had eyebrows that slanted upward at a 45 degree angle and always kept her hair combed over the tips of her ears. I wonder.......
isnt there another area 51 in arizona or las vegas or something like that ??
where is area 51 ?? new mexico ? arizona ? nevada ?? ever seen the vidieo game ??....
Area 51 is in Southern Nevada. The alleged 1947 UFO crash site is just north of Roswell, N.M.
The old Walker Air Force Base big hanger is being used by Nova to assemble RTS buses. The aliens have been gainfully employed since MCI open up the plant. The runway are still active as Boeing uses the former USAF base to test flight their new airplanes.
Several notable military brats born there includes John Denver and Demi Moore.
What's the deal with New Mexico? It's not new and it's not Mexico!
Unless you were the people in charge of selling tickets to the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta. They kept people from New Mexico from buying tickets designated for U.S. sales, and told them they would have to submit requests with the other international ticket buyers. To them, it WAS Mexico.
When people ask me why I love trains so much, I will now point them to this post.
Very good!
--Mark
there is no truth to a heypaul spy thriller
series...
i am about to sign a contract to star in "the
maurice gosfield story---life in the slow lane "...
i will be playing the role of pfc dwayne doberman,
just as soon as i can put on 100 pounds, it's an
ideal role for me since i dislike changing my
clothes and rarely shower...
hey avid reader... who are you?... you seem to have a subversive sense of humor... if you care to
identify yourself, e-mail we with info... please
mark in the subject area of the e-mail "6 7/8"
which was one of the 3 stooges prison numbers, to
help expedite the processing of your e-mail...
Wednesday March 29 9:52 PM ET
Utah Woman Killed by Commuter Train
SOUTH SALT LAKE, Utah (AP) - A woman rushing across the tracks to catch a commuter train was struck and killed by the train Wednesday morning.
Witnesses told police the woman had parked her car in a lot adjacent to the station and was hurrying to reach the center platform when the accident occurred.
The two-car, downtown-bound train was pulling into the station when Delores Betenes, 63, was killed.
South Salt Lake police said no one else was hurt. Light rail service was temporary halted while police investigated, and trains were rerouted.
For those of you who are members of the New York Division of the ERA, I encourage you to read the article in this month's The Bulletinon the routing options for the LIRR to Grand Central Terminal, as part of the East Side Access project. It is on pages 17-19, and authored by NYC-based transportation planner Subutay Musluoglu.
No matter which option is selected, the construction is going to be fascinating to watch (currently scheduled to begin in 2002).
If you're not an NYD/ERA member, I'll bet if you join up now they'll send you the April edition so you can read it! You can contact them at P.O. Box 3001, NY, NY 10008.
Yes, Todd .. good article, and it had a few pictures of the 63rd St tunnel's LIRR level.
--Mark
Tuesday March 28, 2:01 pm Eastern Time
Bombardier shuts Belgian plant, workers stage sit-in
BRUSSELS, March 28 (Reuters) - Canadian engineering firm Bombardier said on Tuesday it was closing one of its two Belgian sites due to overcapacity in the European railway industry, sparking an employee sit-in.
Bombardier said it would shut down its factory in Manage, southern Belgium, which made rail wagons and employed 397 staff.
``The European ferrous metal industry has been confronted for many years by an overcapacity which caused a restructuring of this industry and a strong decline in prices,'' Bombardier told the Belga news agency.
Bombardier has a second plant in Bruges, employing 767 people, making rail wagons, underground trains and trams.
Southern Belgian regional government head Elio Di Rupo joined union chiefs in urging Bombardier to reconsider its decision.
DOES ANYONE PRESENTLY KNOW WHERE THE R110'S ARE RUNNING IN PASSENGER SERVICE AND IF POSSIBLE CAN YOU GIVE ME SPECIFIC DETAILS( EXAMPLE: LINE, TIME, DAY )?
THANKS
DAN
On The C Line effective like a day ago, on the 9:56 out of 168th Street, the 11:23 out of Euclid Avenue
I don't know if this is every day, but this is the thrid time I've caught the R-110B in this time slot.
R142 Boi 2K
When can I expect the R-110B to arrive at Canal St Station going towards 168th from Euclid? Will 12:15 be too late?
Does the R-110B run on weekends?
Thanks!
Nick
When I rode it on the 11:23 out of Euclid, We got to 168th at 12:43pm. To be safe get to canal, going northbound at 12:00pm, Just to be safe!
I don't know about weekend R110B service on the "C"!
R142 Boi 2K
Does this train only make one trip a day?
Yes one trip everyday, suppose!
R142 Boi 2K
Could that qualify as the longest shuttle?
avid
Rode on the R110B's yesterday. It was the 10:06 out of 168th Street. (The sign above the end route sign said "C1001.") I got on the train at 59th Street and rode it all the way to Euclid Avenue. I even made some recordings. The Voice is alive and well. It said "It is 11 O'clock" after the train left Utica Avenue, and said "This is the last stop on this train. Everyone please leave the train." twice as the train approached Euclid Avenue. However, station announcements were being made the old-fashioned way. There was an old advertisement in Car #3005. A kid drinking something from a straw. Three pointers pointintg to the kid, the straw, and the drink in the cup. At the other end of the pointers, "YOU," "SHUTTLE BUS," "IKEA." (How old is that ad?)
I also recorded the doorbell while aboard Car #3002 (The only car to have audible doorbells). I recorded the trip from 59th Street to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, then recordings at 11:00, and between Shepherd Avenue and Euclid Avenue. Between Spring and Canal Strets, someone asked "Are you testing to see that everything's working properly?" I think he was thinking that I had the microphone out, and headphones over my ears. He must be listening for something wrong.
I got on a Manhattan-bound A train at Euclid Avenue. Just as it was about to leave, I saw the R-110B's ready to make the return trip to 168th Street.
I will put the recordings up on my web site around 12:00 today. I will post a message here with a link to the web site. The sounds will be there.
The site's up! Check it out!
The site's up! Check it out!
Click here to go.
Nice Site,
I gave you a link from my site, TransiTALK at http://street.to/transitalk, the link is placed on our Transit Interrealted Links Page.
R142 Boi 2K
I ride the R/44's alot and the R/46's almost as much. Now i as you, has anyone ever wondered who designed the arm rests next to the windows? If you did not have an upper arm , they might be comfortable,.
the R/46 was a tad better, but not in your comfort zone.
The next Peeve about the R/44's is the carbon steel band that was once painted Blue. It's current color , silver , reminds me of DUCT TAPE. I think snow white would look better, or Bus stop yellow or a checkerboard pattern, but the Duct Tape look is Yuickie!
Next peeve , the color of the benches in the R/32,R/38,R/40 and R/40M's. Why weren't they pastel color coordinated with the apricot,orange and tangereen line the R/44,R/46 and R/68's?
Dark grey , whats that all about?
As a Railfan and a steady rider my moode must be lifted.
avid.
The benches on the R-32 to R-42 were color coordinated to the trains' original blue-toned colors. They just didn't bother to paint the bench seats the way they did on the R-26/R-28s.
Grey was the TA's preferred fiberglass color in the period from 1962-69 on both subways and buses. Before that, they tried red plastic seats (with little indentations) on a couple of R-17s, then went with the pink seats on the R-26 through R-30 trains, and opted for lime green plastic bucket seats on the last (9000 series) of the old-style GM buses and the first few thousand of the fishbowls.
I think they should stick with the "autumn leaves" seat color scheme in the R44-46 and later cars. The grey benches remind one of prison, heavy industry, freight transportation, and other dehumnaizing environments for the lesser folks.
I'd love to see them go back to those great red padded seats that occassionally showed up in the R-1/9s, but as a realist, unless the MTA came up with some non-slashable material (or booby trapped the seats if they were slashed), that's not going to happen, so the R-44/R-46 design is the best looking and most comfortable for now.
04/06/2000
(or booby trapped the seats if they were slashed)
You mean like those exploding bags of money the bank robbers get?
TO DYE FOR?
Bill Newkirk
Rim shot!!!
Why did the MTA get rid of all the blue! No blue-silver paint scheme on the R-26 - R-36! No blue doors on R-32s! No blue stripe on R-44/46s! That's why we're stuck with light blue-gray stripes on R-44s.
They decided (rightly) that they didn't need to paint things that needed no painting, like stainless steel. Somehow, the doors on the redbirds are painted, but I suspect it's because they spray-paint the cars, and just mask the windows. Those doors, I believe, are stainless.
And since the perception of transit is that it's 'dirty', a nice, shiny stainless train attracts riders.
Oh, on Magnetic Schedule night at Shea (opening day) it was discovered that the doors on the redbirds are non-magnetic, while other metal components were.
-Hank
I for one love colors, and the charcoal grey benches in the GOH'd equipment simply stinks. All they did was enamel over the original aqua blue. You can see it where the paint has worn off. Poor choice of color, but it hides the dirt.
I'd have had different sets of R44/R46 cars with different colored seats, like they did on the LIRR M-1s when they were new.
LIRR original seat colors:
variation 1: Brown and black only (the original 9000 series cars)
variation 2: Brown, olive green and black (9100s, some 9200s)
variation 3: Orange, red and charcoal grey (some 9400s)
variation 4: Aqua, yellow, bone and black (9500s and 9600s)
variation 5: Bone, red, charcoal grey (all others, all M-3s when new)
Please correct me if I'm in error on the above since I am relying on 25-year-old memories.
Wayne
04/06/2000
And what made it interesting was when top or bottom cushions of totally different color was thrown in. No match?, BIG DEAL ! Since this is the LIRR, perfection don't count!
Bill Newkirk
JERUSALEM (AP) - When Edith Tzirer straggled out of a liberated Nazi concentration camp in 1945, her lungs were so ravaged by tuberculosis, she was too weak to walk.
Her protector was a handsome young stranger who gave her a piece of bread and a cup of tea on that cold January day outside Krakow, Poland. And then he carried the 14-year-old girl two miles from the train station where he found her.
Tzirer wept Thursday as she reintroduced herself to the man she says comforted her more than a half-century ago - Pope John Paul II.
``I was a little girl again,'' said Tzirer, 69, who now lives in Israel. ``It was 50 years ago, and everything that happened then came back now.''
Tzirer was one of six Holocaust survivors who formally greeted the pope during his poignant visit Thursday to Yad Vashem, Israel's Holocaust memorial on a hilltop on the western edge of Jerusalem.
The pontiff himself can't recall the long-ago day or the teenage girl of half a century past.
``The pope does not dismiss her story out of hand. But he can't remember the details,'' said Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said. ``She is quite specific. The pope says it is 'quite possible,' because he was in the area at that time.''
For Tzirer, that day in Poland is still as vivid as if it were yesterday. She says she was shocked in 1978 when she saw a picture of her old savior, Karol Wojtyla, in a French magazine, and learned he had just become the pope.
``He was strong and tall, an athlete,'' Tzirer said in an interview with Israeli television. ``I asked myself, why me? Why?''
Regardless of what transpired on that day 55 years ago, the pope and the gray-haired survivors were filled with emotion that transcended the politics and diplomacy of Thursday's remembrance. More than a half-century ago, they were surrounded by the terrible Nazi slaughter commemorated at the memorial by an eternal flame that burns in memory of the 6 million who died.
``I remember my Jewish friends and neighbors, some of whom perished, while others survived,'' said the pope. He met Thursday with several Jewish boyhood friends who grew up with him in Wadowice, Poland, but now live in Israel.
The pope was 19 when the Nazis invaded his homeland in 1939, and he witnessed the persecution of Jews throughout the war years. Wadowice's 2,000 Jews disappeared. Some managed to flee, but others were deported to Nazi camps and died there.
There is no trace of Jewish life in Wadowice now, and Thursday's reunion was the first time most of the survivors have seen the pope since those terrible days.
The wartime experience has strongly influenced John Paul's 22-year papacy, and Jewish leaders say no other pope has done as much to overcome the historical friction between Roman Catholics and Jews.
``This is a turning point for Jews and Christians,'' said Eli Zborowski, another of the Holocaust survivors who greeted the pope.
Zborowski, a Polish native who now lives in New York, said he would have liked the pope to apologize Thursday for the church's silence during the Holocaust. But he said the pontiff's decision to speak at Yad Vashem was still momentous.
``What he did is a very positive thing that will change history,'' Zborowski said.
Even for Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, the ceremony was deeply personal. Addressing the pontiff, Barak paid tribute to his grandparents, who perished in the Treblinka death camp in Nazi-occupied Poland.
``When my grandparents, Elka and Shmuel Godin, mounted the death trains ... near their home in Warsaw, headed toward their fate at Treblinka - the fate of 3 million Jews in your homeland - you were there and you remembered,'' he said.
A while back some one had posted up that there were going to be changes occring to the white plains and dyre lines. the 2 and 5 from 241st and 238th will run express between east 180th and 3rd aves in the Bronx while the 5 from dyre will run the local. My concern is that there will be less service on the 2 now that it is an express. This will affect the ENIRE LINE all the way to brookyn. I don't get it. Isn't any way to do this with out pulling service off the 2?? And the explaination for it is that it allows the 2 to not wait for the 5 to cross and enter the station. now why is this sugeesstion not mentioned for the Brookyln part why not have the 5 run to new lots and make the 2 local stops before switching over and the 4 run from utica the way that it is??? this would allow the local to not get held up all the times since the 3 would be on local with the 2. Could someone please explain this in full detail because i really don't get this at all. Thanks.
I don't know about that idea. That makes no sense, It would be a lot better if the 5 became a all day Bronx-Thru Express, something like what the 7 is doing. Make the 2 Express, I don't about that!
R142 Boi 2K
At no time did I say ANYTHING about a cut in service on the 2. Currently, southbound 2 trains have FOUR constricting points during the AM rush - E. 180 St, South of Jackson Ave, North of 135 St and Franklin Ave. There is not much that can be done aboutthe junction with the 3 north of 135 St. As long as there is a Bronx thru-express, there will be the occasional delay at Jackson Ave for some train. If the 2 and 3 both ran to Flatbush while the 4 and 5 ran to Utica/ New Lots, the crowd changing trains at Franklin would overwhelm the station. Therefore, in order to give some help to the 2, the decision was made to swap thru-express service with the 5.
This is to inform those who may be interested in my unique problem. There are three computers in my classroom. One is mine and the other two are for my students. The problem is I can't get on Subtalk on my computer for some mysterious reason, but can get on with the other two. I can get on NYCSUBWAY.ORG and all its programs and parts but not Subtalk. To me that makes my computer obsolete because without Subtalk I'm a man with no hands and legs. I'm hoping Big Dave can solve this problem, but if this message goes through at least I know I can still communicate with you. And yes, my daughter at home is letting me use her computer that I bought for her. She is leaving for a trip to Philadelphia in two weeks, and she needs some spending money. I'm sure you guys out there know what I mean.
I'm still not clear why you think it's my problem when you can clearly see that it works from 2 of your 3 computers. I strongly suspect the problem has got something to do with your broken computer. I really don't have the time to track down these phantom problems.
It's not your problem but I thought you might be able to help. I will try to get someone tech people here to check my computer. For a time I didn't get on this one after I posted a message. I'll keep plugging away.
Did you ever write anything that got Dave Pirmann angry? I once did and he bared me from posting from that computer. I was however able to read messages. Perhaps you or someone else did exactly that. You say others have access to that computer. Maybe someone saw the page open and wanted to get you in trouble
Could be. But I don't recall having anything nasty going on with Dave. If there was I would expect him to be up front with me because I have no use at all for a phony or someone who won;t come clean. That other matter of the page being open, that might fly. I have left my room with this website on. Makes for an interesting theory.
Have you had anyone check the time out setting on the computer? I've noticed that SubTalk has slowed down recently. (Come to think of it, the solution will depend on what happens when you try to go to the message index. If you are getting a "no response" message from your browser, it's probably a time out problem. If, on the other hand, nothing at all is happening and the computer just sits there staring at you without any error messages appearing, you may simply not be waiting long enough for Dave's overloaded system to catch up with itself.)
What kind/how old is your machine? pentium/486/386? Modem? 56K/33K/28K/9.8K?
I'm back on for the past three days. I just hope the worst is over. I have come to the conclusion that something was amiss; I just don;t know what. My machine is two years old, a Dell with a pentium processor designed for Microsoft Windows 95.
It's a school. It's most likely hooked to a T1 line though a LAN.
Assuming your school has a firewall, compare the configuration of a machien that gets through with the one that is causing you difficulty. Perhaps something is preventing cgi scripts from executing on the problem computer.
--Mark
I'm back on Mark, though I don;t know for how long. I hope the problem is ended. It is quite a mystery. I just happened to click and all of a sudden I was on. Who knows for how long? And one other thing, I keep getting a duplicate submission when I know I only click down once. I wonder what that duplicate submission is all about.
Fred,
Could someone have reset the browser's pref's (when you were not around) to reject cookies??
My wife is also a teacher, and twice her students (mostly 7th & 8th) have fooled with either machine. Due to this she will not let students use her personal laptop.
As to the duplicate posts, check the mouse settings - could be set too sensitive. (possible student foolery?)
Also check your browser's cache settings. Re: duplicates, do you have this problem with anything else coming up twice? If so, you may have a hardware problem in your keyboard or mouse. If it's only this one thing (duplicate postings), beats me.
[Perhaps something is preventing cgi scripts from executing on the problem computer. ]
CGI executes on the server.
Arti
Found this site where you can have all the fun you want in learning how to crash trains and dropping runs
http://www.signalcc.com/
If you play with "Train Dispatcher" from Signal Computer Consultants (whose website the link goes to), you can NOT "crash" trains. The program won't allow it.
But you can surely "drop" or "miss" a schedule.
--http://www.napanet.net/~jlbaker
There's this guy in a bar, just looking at his drink. He stays like that for
half-an-hour. Then, this big trouble-making truck driver steps next to him,
takes the drink from the guy, and just drinks it all down.
The poor man starts crying. The truck driver says: "Come on man, I was just
joking. Here, I'll buy you another drink. I just can't see a man crying."
"No, it's not that. This day is the worst of my life. First, I fall asleep, and
I go late to my office. My boss, outrageous, fires me. When I leave the
building, to my car, I found out it
was stolen. The police, they say they can do nothing. I get a cab to return
home, and when I leave it, I remember I left my wallet and credit cards there.
The cab driver just drives
away. I go home, and when I get there, I find my wife in bed with the gardener.
I leave home, and come to this bar. And just when I was thinking about putting
an end to my life, you
show up and drink my poison..."
Rim shot!
This was back in the mid to late 1980's. And the B & D on the 6th ave line went as far as 34th street. Now, my question is, what cars were used on those lines,. the 6th av line. I know the B used the R-40, but what about the D? It looked like an R-44 or R-46 without a closing door chime. Anybody remember? tanx :)
What you mentioned are the R40M and R42 cars.
Chaohwa
The northern D route used the R42. The northern B route shared the R42's assigned to the K. The southern B used the R40 slant/R27-30, and the occasional R16, until early 1987, when the southern B was almost exclusivly R40 slant. The southern D used a similiar smorgasbord of R40/R42/R32 until the R68's starting replacing them in late 86/early 87.
Tanx for the info guys, really appreciate it.
I remember very well when the B and D were only known as the West End and Brighton Expresses. The terminals were Times Square, 42nd Street and Coney Island's Stillwell Avenue. What was strange was when they reached 42nd Street they just didn;t reverse course but went a short distance beyond 42nd where they then changed course and re-entered the station. We always used to guess which train would arrive first and make bets on it. The usual sequence was the Brighton, West End and Sea Beach with the West End always between the other two. When we went to our grandparents' houses (both sides of the family), my parents would always hope the Sea Beach came first because if it didn;t, we'd have to wait another train or two for it, or take whichever train came first and have a scene on board because their bratty son would wail for the Sea Beach. After awhile, my parents found it was easier to wait for the Sea Beach. They knew they had a fanatic son even when he was seven or eight.
yes.... and remember not just the big railfan windows but the large huge SIDE WINDOWS !! 1956-1959.. for me !
( thats what i was saying about the R-142s ! ).......
yes.... and remember not just the big railfan windows but the large huge SIDE WINDOWS !! 1956-1959.. for me !
( thats what i was saying about the R-142s ! ).......dont believe me ? visit the subway museum and compare !
All:
I did some work this morning on implementing basic killfiles. For those of you who don't know what that is, essentially it is a list of posters from whom you do not wish to see any posts. When viewing the message index or followup threads, these people's posts will not be listed.
To edit your killfile, click the Change Display Style link on the Message Index page for each Talk. (Each Talk has a separate killfile because each Talk has a separate cookie to hold the data-- to make a global cookie would be a PITA at this point.)
The entries in the killfile field should be poster's handles exactly as they appear in their posts one per line. Cut and paste is your best bet to get it right. Capital letters and punctuation/spacing are critical, including extra spaces at the end of the lines, so be careful. (And you all thought that the username/password system really didn't have any other useful benefits.) I didn't hard-code a limit to how many people you could killfile but there may be some inherent limit to the length of a cookie.
I didn't try all the possible combinations of threading/chronological, forward/reverse so it may not work for certain combinations. I tried it with Message Index set to Chronological. The usual "it works for me" mantra applies, if it doesn't work for you, check the Chronological format first, and if it works then, drop me a line and give me specifics on your original message display parameters. But before you send me a message be sure you've double checked the spelling/spacing of the handles on your list.
And remember, if you read SubTalk from different computers, the cookie doesn't follow you. You'll have to reinitialize your killfile list from each computer that you read SubTalk from. This is because cookies are stored in your browser's configuration and not here on my server...
-Dave
It worked fine for me - salaamallah has been *plonked*!!!
Thanks, Dave.
Instead of being rude, why don't you just keep who you do a killfile on to yourself?
i dont think so !! by the way can any one answer the r-142 side window question with proff ?
This is worth the wait...
The window is at the right side of this image. Notice the cable running from the window, taped to the side of car 6301 towards the bottom. If the side window couldn't open, they wouldn't be able to run the cable down the side of the car the way it is. The side windows CAN open up. The only side windows that can't open are the windows that have the side destination signs. FINAL ANSWER!
Bless you, my son.
a hasty quick not level and probably robbed from some other gif or jpeg that someone else took etc....
picture was posted the photography was so-so.! etc...... you know even on money trains and work cars...
when the side passenger doors open fresh air can finally come in after the AC has failed !!
my question still is why didnt you take this picture yourself of the side-passenger-windows ??
and show how the riding passenger public can open and or close them up for fresh air when the A.C. fails ??
so you show the pasenger doors !! so what ?? ( oh well )..... still cant get a answer with proff !!
i want to move on to some other on topic subject you all flunked this one !! forget it and lets drop it !!
We flunked NOTHING, it was you that flunked.
The killfile still shows messages when they are in a thread (not a direct response), you can open the message two levels up and see it.
While I believe the current impostion of a killfile is good, I also think that there should be an option to kill everything downthread some levels. I know that might be difficult, so what we have now is good.
a hasty quick not level and probably robbed from some other gif or jpeg that someone else took etc....
You're kidding, right?
Did you scroll the picture to the right to see it in its entirety? That passenger window is the same type as the R-62's passenger window (and the R-68, R-46, R-44, R-42, R-40, R-36WF, R-38GOH and R-32GOH to name a few.) They all open at the top inwards.
--Mark
are you sure ( question ) and have you put your hands on this yet ?? ok maybe it looks like a small window at the top
but are you sure it is not sealed shut ?? now if you can open it and have with your own hands .............
then i guess the so called TCCB and R-142 clubs win !! i like a challenge even if i lose ( this time )... thanks !!
its not a big deal to me !! it is just like these sick buildings that you cant open up a window for fresh air ! ( example )
thank you for your post if you can open up that side window on that r-142 with your own hands,.......you win !!!! ...fair enough ?..!!....
Just wait until they enter passenger service. Maybe someone will get a shot of the side window open.
Take a look at this picture of 7215: http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142a-7215.jpg
The first window is open.
Thanks for pointing that out, Mark - you are absolutely correct, I can see part of the hinge mechanism on the right-hand side of the window that would only be visible when the window is open.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i asked to kill this thread please !
Oh look at that the window IS open.
HERE'S THE PROOF!!
Thank you,
Andee
my closing point is that the museum trains had real side windows etc......... END THIS THREAD !!
How do we know thats an R-142?
Yes, I guess it could really be a cleverly disguised photo of an R-16, with all the carbon steel body around the car number plaque covered over through careful use of the Photoshop editing tools :)
You'd have to be pretty crispy to not know that a R142, look a the R142 ONLY Red Stripe! and the testing wires.
R142 Boi 2K
B division cars, like the R16, CAN'T run on A Division lines! The picture was taken at the Gun Hill Road station on the Dyre Avenue (5) line. I know because I was the one pressing the shutter button. The R16s had side windows like the ones you see on the R26 through 36 (Mainline) cars, but the older style. The window in my picture is like the ones on the R62.
My R-16 comment was sarcasm, based on the Oliver Stone-like paranoia some people have shown towards believing anything about the R-142s.
Besides, they also didn't have the little red round emergency glass over the main window (sarcasm again)...
I am emailing it to you however to keep it private
Uh, thanks, but you don't need to post here to tell me to check my email.
-dave
Thank you, Dave. It works like a charm. No more looking at posts bt our favorite LA whipping boy.
Thank you for continuing to make nycsubway.org one the the best rail web sites around.
Yes. I'm able to read the board without Alka-Seltzer!
-Hank
Is having the killfile more reasonable than banning anyone from the board? I would like to know. Sounds like free speech isn't being infringed upon, regardless of how absurd someone's statements may seem. Being banned might bring up issues of free speech if someone cries foul.
Whatever the case maybe, hang in there and don't let anyone here get to you.
I haven't used the killfile yet, but we'll see.
-Stef
Yep, it is better. I did however find a loophole: Messages still appear if they are not the direct response to a message you are looking at, but are in the thread. Even with that, it lets me open all the messages (so they appear purple) without having to grip a stress ball.
I really don't see the need for it as the name of the poster is listed on each post so one could make the decision whether to click or not. If one uses it it could cause some confusion as you could still click on replies to the killfile subject (I assume) and you wouldn't know what the reply is talking about.
Also I'd bet the pigs person that originally asked for the killfile will still monitor SalaamAllah's posts since he always did before when he had the choice to skip 'em.
Jeffrey, I tend to agree with you. It seems to me that some of our clients here are among those that have no channel buttons on their TV remotes, etc. I don't know why it's so hard to ignore those you don't agree with or particularly like... it's one of those human nature things I guess. Anyway, the killfile is there to use it if you want it, or not use it if you don't want to. If it keeps some posters around who are normally decent contributors it's worth the effort to code it.
Thank you, Dave. The problem as whole isn't that I'm not trying to ignore certain posts, but the fact that they seem to be everywhere, no matter the topic. There's literally no way to avoid them. Additionally, several pieces of information have come from the rebuttal posts, only to run into the same blockhead.
-Hank
I tend to think some of the guys have fun harassing our resident subway photographer. He has never been as vicious as some of his detractors and sometimes I think he might be a little autistic, especially when he repeats the same thing over and over. Anyway his too worst detractors are teens and Salaam is in his 50's. If anything there should be some respect in that regard.
Who are they? I'm no teen.
-Hank
Who's the second one then?
[I tend to think some of the guys have fun harassing our resident subway photographer. He has never been as vicious as some of his detractors and sometimes I think he might be a little autistic, especially when he repeats the same thing over and over. Anyway his too worst detractors are teens and Salaam is in his 50's. If anything there should be some respect in that regard.]
Well, I enjoyed ragging on the schmuck, before killfiling him, and I'm considerably closer to my 50's than to my teen years.
I'm certainly not an expert in this regard, but I don't believe his absurd repetitive posts are something related to autism. He's just an idiot.
I'm in my 50's, and I started the PEBCAK comment, since that seems to describe the problem better than anything else. I sent him a nicely worded e-mail describing a way to reduce\eliminate the worst features of his posts. What came back to my box? An e-mail that looked and read exactly like what he puts in his posts. And the reply had nothing about my nice suggestion.
I ragged on him, too, and usually the rag got a standard, not-to-the-point reply. Dave's killfile was welcome because it has me avoid him and keeps me focused on real discussions.
Nobody, not Pigs or robert johnson has irritated me as much as our LA problem. So, no more salaamallah for me.
I think that the entire cause of my irritating others has to do with the LA problem. I don't post that pigs taking over crap anymore, do I?
salaam and many posters response to him have helped me see something very interesting here...
salaam certainly goes on and on about things that he feels strongly about...
well from my view of this message board, many of you when the opportunity presents itself go on and on about your special issues:
1) the poor
2) limousine liberals
3) democrats
4) unions
salaam may be repetetive, but usually there is no meanness behind his words...
on the other hand, people have spoken here about social issues with a meanness and racism that is
disturbing to read, especially when it is accompanied by a smugness and righteousness that comes from the comfortable
whereas i previously thought that many of you were racist, i think i will accept peter's analysis of salaam: you are a bunch of schmucks and idiots...
as well as being terminally boring
i intend to engage the ultimate killfile... i will no longer be part of this scene...
What bothers me is when people claim racism when it clearly doesn't exist (not that racism doesn't exist at all). Give us an example of a racist posting as opposed to a person who happens to be white criticizing a person who happens to be black or vice-versa?
Say it ain't so heypaul.....
While I agree with some of your observations, bare in mind that if we were to meet some of the posters who you associate with 'negative' postings, it's possible (just possible) you might find them amenible and quite sociable as people.
Paul, please don't judge everyone here 100% on how and what they might post about. Give this place another chance.
Your company here is certainly appreciated by a good number of SubTalkers.
Doug aka BMTman
Paul, you are right in a way. Some of the most disturbing posts I've read on this board has been when someone has gotten killed doing something not so smart such as subway surfing or crossing through railroad crossing gates. Half the people on the board posts with a smugness that these people definitely deserved death and showed very little or no compassion or sympathy. The worst was when that poor lady in her 50's got hit by a train in Bethpage a few months back. People were posting with such a hatred and a vengence against her calling her stupid and alot of other things. I thought the postings were infantile. Who here hasn't done some stupid things??
I also think that the criticism of the Bethpage crossing woman was a bit harsh, but the subway surfers deserved theirs. One could have thought the gates malfunctioned because one saw no train coming, but the "surfers" just deserved their Darwin awards*.
*Darwin didn't invent the statement "Survival of the fittest"
Paul, let me suggest that you do as I do - read what pleases you, ignore what doesn't, and post as it pleases you to do so. I post less frequently than I once did, but that's because I find that I have less to say lately that hasn't been said before, either by myself or someone else. But I'm not going away, at least not yet, and I would hope that you would stay around too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think we may have exhausted the topic of the subway, at least until something new happens.
Don't go. The growing ledgend and myth of the "Life and Exciting Times of Heypaul would a shallow echo, a dimming shadow, a lost treasure of everydayness. The common man needs a common man hero. With out you we will not get Tom Seleck to consider signing on for" Revenge of the Gruppen Kitchen Fusseleers" or "Sausage Troops from Das Zipplin,s . You will stunt a budding mindless humor.
avid
i dont blame you heypaul i feel the same! especially after the racist hate cowards who send me e mail !
Maybe you shouldn't flood people's Inboxes with duplicate e-mails.
what are you posting about ?? i dont do that !!
As Voltaire said, "Does a book displease you? Refute it. Does it bore you? Don't read it."
Replace book with post, of course.
In that case, I like Voltaire.. The post DOES displease me, so I refute it. Unfortunately, the same seems to be true for the original poster. Except instead of refuteing, he repeats the original arguement, no matter the facts presented nor the astounding odds against him.
-Hank
As you say it's just as easy to tune out whoever you want to on these boards. But some people post so many times a day with so much inanity and repetition that just seeing their handle clutters up the board. The killfile option is a good idea. And maybe if certain persons are "killed" by many other users they will get the hint by the lack of response to their postings and go back into their basements and hide, hopefully with their modems unplugged. Anything that helps maintain reasonable discourse and disagreements here is a good idea.
why do you insist on flaning me by name ?
Thank you!!!
Some people seem to only post garbage (not saying names) and it will make it easier to find on topic posts.
Thanks, again!
Thank you very much for your efforts, Dave!
All I had to do is killfile THREE people (and I used the term loosely) and 99.99% of the pure, unadulterated bullpuckey has disappeared into this air!!!
Hopefully theose three won't resort to using sneaky, alternate e-mails to obtain new posting handles. (Of course, they way they've acted to gain killfile status, it won't take them long to "show their colors" so to speak.)
I did some work this morning on implementing basic killfiles. For those of you who don't know what that is, essentially it is a list of posters from whom you do not wish to see any posts. When viewing the message index or followup threads, these people's posts will not be listed.
The killfile works perfectly for me on the main message index. However, it doesn't seem to work at all on the thread response lists attached to individual messages.
Can you look into this?
Thanks.
CH.
It takes some fine tuning. As of this writing, they don't appear in the responses, but if the post you're reading was a reply, you get to see what it was a reply to, which is fine with me.
-Hank
I LIKE IT!
Good show, Dave!
Wayne
Dave,
Would it be too much work if you also added support to killfile by e-mail address?
Thanks in advance!
Nick
What's the point? People are not required to post their email address. Handles show up by default and in fact since people cannot arbitrarily change them it should be sufficient to block with.
it means that rather than being kicked off subtalk or a chatroom ...... ( for example )..........
any subtalker becomes non visable to no-one.......... finally everybody wipes each other out and the board
goes blank and wipes out and crashes !! ...................????..........!!!!.............................?
No. Some people do post on-topic things that are enjoyable to read. Those people won't be in the killfiles and as long as those people post cleanly, there will still be a message or two to read.
i have seen a lot of off topic posts !!....etc....and they were not clean either !! enjoyable ?? thats the real question !!...
For what it's worth, I asked during the SubTalk chat whether people were using the killfiles. No one said they were; I got about four or five "no"'s and "no ways".
-Dave
Well, *I* am using them -- and there are THREE particular people I have added to the killfile list. And believe me, since I did, I can read SubTalk witout 99% of the manure. It's nice to be able to come in here and not see 40 off-topic rant/rave posts from one particular poster, and 20 more from another who posted some rather inane stuff that I just couldn't waste time trying to sift through.
Maybe nobody else wants to admit using them publicly.
I added 2 names.
-Hank
I have one name on my killfile list - Salaamallah.
i have one name on my killfile peter rosa !
Likewise.
Me, too.
I have one on my list ....p...rosa .!!
That's one of them. You can guess the other.
-Hank
you are one of those people..........too !! ( no guess who the other one is......... want a hint ? )...............
I don't know that I'll want to use a killfile unless one person was rally garbaging up the board.
If there were a "threadkill" I'd probably use that, just to cut out threads I wasn't interested in or that have meagposts of extraneous matter.
Also might cut down on bandwidth usage. I don't know if that's a big deal technically.
I killed one person. Ever since, all the garbage on the board is gone and it takes less time to find intresting posts since I don't have so much garbage in the way.
I left the chat before you asked that but I would have said yes, I am using the killfile.
I use the killfile on my home computer, but don't use it at work. Subtalk seems a lot more tranquil at home :-)
I am
Arti
I'm not. I figure that I can read the handle and decide.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not using it myself.
They were called SubTalk Live before they became ChatHam Square.
The new chats vary. I prefer the off topic conversations, but only because there is too much bus chat, or at least that's my perception.
Other than that, I see it as a great way to know the other SubTalkers.
When I get bored, I usually leave the window open if I'm doing something else, otherwise, I come back later (File->Create Shortcut).
Now I have no problem with the Census, but my university and possibly the federal govt. is trying to scam students. My school is trying to get all the students to fill out their census forms as if they lived HERE instead of their home town. Excuse me but I don't vote in local Middletown elections, I don't vote in CT state elections, I don't pay taxes here and I AM NOT A RESIDENT HERE. I am proud to be a New Jersey citizen. I consider myself to live in New Jersey and to go on learning vacations to Connecticut. Why on earth would I want to send MY representation and MY federal $$ to CT? At most I would get to enjoy years worth of my "benifits" before I was shafted for another 7. The worst part is that most people are going to fall for it.
-It's your future, don't send it somewhere else!
i did not want to answer this off topic post but that is only ONE of the many reasons why i responded with a big
felt pen to the census 2000,1990,1980&1970 ...census....... with the only response as ( drop dead ) !! and we have never ever co-operated with the enumerators either !.. you see if only the senseless census - government would leave well enough alone and persons who do not trust giving out free personal information ( privacy invasions )..etc...!!!!.. i meet people everyday who didnt fill this stuff out and i agree with them 100% none of us co-operated !! ha!! ha!ha!!
And they would get it right if ( government) would do it right !! finally this will be the lowest census count ever 40%!!
it should have been "0" .....ZERO...!! ......I love it how they lie to us and tell us how mass rail transit will be improved !!
like how the myth of public transit in los angeles........ new york, new jersey , count your blessings !! ......
It isn't a scam -- the issue is where are you on April 1. New Jersey hates this, because so many Jersey residents go to college elsewhere. It doesn't help NYC either, because so many of its residents are, well, upstate. The college thing is also one of the reasons that affluent White people get counted twice. The school counts the kids in the dorms, but their parents put them down also. Second homes are another reason.
As for not responding to the forms, it appears to be a Black Thang. A map of response rates by census tract looks the same as percent Black by tract. It isn't income or eduation -- middle income Black neighbhoods are low too. Hell I walked around very pleasant Black neighborhoods counting doorbells, and everyone seemed happy to see me and knew the census was coming. These same places have response rates in the 20s so far.
The Latinos are filling them out. So are many of the Asians. Not Afro-Americans. The question is, when NYC loses money due to another undercount, who will be made to suffer?
[It isn't a scam -- the issue is where are you on April 1. New Jersey hates this, because so many Jersey residents go to college
elsewhere. It doesn't help NYC either, because so many of its residents are, well, upstate.]
At first I didn't realize what you meant by "upstate." Then it dawned on me :-)
Well I have already been counted on my form at home and it has been sent in. Is there any way to stop the school from reporting me when I don't fill out the form they gave me?
I don't think there is any way to do it. You'll be counted in Connecticut, which means you'll be counted twice while the poor get counted not at all -- just the way the Republicans planned it.
THIS STINKS! THIS IS TOTAL BS! Wait, they just gave me a census form. If I junk it how could they then go and count me besides sending around a person to whom I would explain I have already been counted. If they are just going to send their own records into the census, why send out the forms in the foist place.
republicans-democrats cut food stamps to the needy etc?!! whats the difference between the two parties ??
i voted for ralph nader ! and.... you will be suprised how many people in the east coast who refuse the census !
You voted for Nader? Didn't you one say you once had a corvair? (I might be wrong) Well Ralph Nader got famous crucifying the Corvair in his book "Unsafe At Any Speed". And I loved Chevy's version of the VW Beetle with the engine in the back!!!
i owned a few corvairs and a vw van almost loaded the corvair engine into it !! the corvair van was my favorite !!
i did not agree with nader attacking general motors ONLY and letting ford and crysler and amc ..mispelled something @
and i did not think the corvair was not so bad as he said it was !! at least i never had all the problems you might have heard !!
most small cars today are smaller han a corvair !.... ok no seatbelts padded dash and no airbags !!.......!
i own the book you posted also !! the corvair was very backyard mechanic frendly and easy to work on !! not like the cars of today !
and automobiles had in my young years.. a lot of experence working on air colled vw engines and corvair engines as well !!!
contridiction in voting for nader...... yes but rather than let my ballot be a zero i held my nose and checked him !!
he said he was for rail and mass transit !! that was better than the other bozos out there !! ( not much to vote for ! )...
he said ( ralph nader ) that he ws in favor and would promote mass rail transit etc........
The Corvar was a great car and Ralph was wrong!!!!! The VW Beatle and Microbus were much mor likely to roll
I agree with you there !! thats why I owned a VW type 2 1971 (bus) and the corvair greebrier 1961- 1964 (bus )
those VW bugs were dangerous especially to head on accidents !!..
I thought the problem with the Corvair was that the wheels tended to fall off!
that will happen to any gm car or any other that you dont torque your wheels on !!
wheels fall of of other cars !
Well it would seem that Salaamallah's protest about not filling out the census may have borne fruit.
Since the deadline for filling out the census passed on April 1st, it appears that the U.S.
population stands at 13,462.
--Mark
I hope he and Trent Lott will be happy when Afro-Americans get screwed AGAIN.
black americans have been as you posted have been"screwed" since before the first senseless census !!
Non co-operation and refusing to do the census is the least anyone can do when government ( not just trent lott )
screws all of the american people with lies about how free information must just be'' handed over '' to the census ?
So on a non violent basis and like going on strike refusing and resisting is required and is the 40% who did answer SOME of thier census forms with one or two answers only and left 90% of the rest of the 2000 census form blank !! ......................... I wrote DROP DEAD on my form ! even when i was riding the subway in new york most people told me that they had limited and no intent in cooperating with
this invasion of privacies ( the long form especially ) &.... 60 % that are refusing resisting !! and the short form too !!
...
Well, I see your point about getting counted twice. On the other hand, while you are in college, you live a lot more in CT than in NJ. Jersey may be your home, but you are living in CT. And that is where you are using government services.
I understand why they use a uniform rule. They should make it very clear that parents are not to include college students living in dorms. But when people won't even bother to fill the form out, how would they get them to read directions...
While in the long run, the second avenue will be a good thing, what will happen to 2nd Avenue during construction? Are there any plans as to what to do on that major street?
I think that 1st and/or 3rd Avenue should become 2 way during construction paralel to road closures. To avoid bottlenecks on small streets, the traffic pattern would start at the first crosstown street before the construction (ie, road closed at 76th Street, the traffic pattern on 1st Avenue starts at 79th Street. If the closure ended at 90th Street, the 2 way pattern would go until 86th Street). There would be 2 southbound lanes on one or both avenues in those zones.
Also, where will the line end in downtown? Does anyone know where stops will be? Also, will new stations be built on the 7 at the UN or on 60th and 63rd at second for a connection to the 2nd Avenue Subway?
I read in the papers today that they expect it would take 16-25 years to build a full-length Second Ave. subway. I would think that in 25 years, they could build a subway from NYC to LA! Why could it possibly take so long? It seems to me that they should be able to build it in 8-10 years.
Bob, if you want the answer, come on up here to the land of The Big Dig :-)
Seriously, if the 2nd Ave. construction and the LIRR->GCT construction is going on at the same time, it could be quite the interesting times for NYC -- from both a construction and financial standpoint!
At least I'll be eligible for the Senior Citizen discount by then!
What they should consider doing is completing the project in stages. Build the "stubway" from 63rd to 125th Street and begin running it. Then complete 63rd to, say 42nd and open that, etc. Of course, then you run the risk of an adverse economy preventing the full completion at some point.
Also, didn't the Big Dig in Boston run into several topographical surprises (resulting in some novel engineering solutions) which have slowed it down (as well as fancy accounting). I thought Manhattan's underground was pretty well mapped out during the last century of Subway construction. There shouldn't be very many surprises there which would slow things down.
Hoo boy.
See the Big Dig Web site for all of the surprises.
[I read in the papers today that they expect it would take 16-25 years to build a full-length Second Ave. subway. I would think that in 25 years, they could build a subway from NYC to LA! Why could it possibly take so long? It seems to me that they should be able to build it in 8-10 years.]
It is ridiculous and inexcusable. And it absolutely would not happen in the private sector. Today's _Wall Street Journal_ had an article about General Motors' plans to build a new assembly plant in Lansing, one that will occupy a 1,500-acre site - almost two Central Parks - and is expected to cost more than one BILLION dollars. It didn't say how long construction is expected to take, but given that the plant will be used for assembly of new cars styles now under development, I'd say three, maybe four years, tops.
There would be no need to close 2nd ave to traffic. They could cover the street as they build like they did when they built 63 street tunnel or 3 sections of 2nd ave subway already built. Also according to second ave subway bids I have, yes the subway full length can be built in 6 years MAXIMUM
When construction began the first time in 1972, it was projected that the entire line would take 10 to 15 years to complete.
I haven't seen a proper schedule of how they'd plan to build the line, but the amount of time is going to depend on how much of the city you're willing to have torn up at once, and the amount to labor and equipment that you can afford to commit to the project. A realistic construction schedule can't be generated until there are more details about how the line would be built. Any time estimate you're seeing is pure speculation, probably based on other recent projects. This number probably includes the design lag, so I'd interpret it if it's approved for construction, it could be done in 16-25 years.
If you begin with a design and environmental impact statement in year 1, and have construction going on in year 20, you are going to have to redo the design and EIS in year 20, because conditions will have changed. This project will be done in a decade, beginning now, or not at all. It's the Second Avenue Scamway.
Larry, don't you know how to sing any other songs?
[I haven't seen a proper schedule of how they'd plan to build the line, but the amount of time is going to depend on how much of the city you're willing to have torn up at once, and the amount to labor and equipment that you can afford to commit to the project. A realistic construction schedule can't be generated until there are more details about how the line would be built. Any time estimate you're seeing is pure speculation, probably based on other recent projects. This number probably includes the design lag, so I'd interpret it if it's approved for construction, it could be done in 16-25 years.]
It does *not* take 16-25 years to build a subway in Manhattan. Five is more like it, working at a comfortable pace. And it makes absolutely no sense to tie up capital that long; they'd be better off not doing anything for 10-20 years, and building it then.
As far as tying up the capital for so long, that's one of the reasons that some cities/states do prolonged rehabilitation projects on functionally obsolete bridges. It's easier on the budget to spread, say 30 million over 10-15 years than 20 million over 5 years for new construction.
Yes, you probably could build a subway in Manhattan in 5 years, but you'd pay dearly for it, in terms of capital expenditures on the contracts themselves, and in terms of tearing up all of Second Avenue until the tunnel structure itself is completed. Most MTA contracts I've seen aren't big on incentives for finishing early (Williamsburg being the exception) and a tight schedule will mean much higher prices from the contractors.
Waiting longer makes things more difficult in many respects. Recently, material prices have kept pace with inflation, but if you were to see spikes in something like cement prices, you're old price estimates are out the window. Additionally, the construction labor pool is seriously short. For all of the talk about how much the unions make, they still have trouble attracting enough people for all of the positions that they can fill. This will mean higher costs for labor, and if the labor requirements are too large, i.e. you're trying to build too much at once, then you won't be able to find enough people at any price. Believe me, many large contractors are paying significant amounts of money to skilled workers to keep them around, above and beyond union scale.
I was under the impression that the plan was to bore most of the tunnel instead of cut and cover. Doesn't that eliminate the kind of surface surface disruption you are talking about? On the other hand, how many boring machines can be used in one tunnel? Anyone know how many feet per day one of these machines advances or how many feet long the whole project will be?
As for the paper work, you would think that the environmental advantages of the project (or of any new subway in a city of this size, for that matter) would be so obvious that Congress would be willing to pass a law exempting the project from most of the regulatory crap.
[As for the paper work, you would think that the environmental advantages of the project (or of any new subway in a city of this size, for that matter) would be so obvious that Congress would be willing to pass a law exempting the project from most of the regulatory crap.]
Hard to see how that could be done. For one thing, there are safety issues and environmental hazards (asbestos covered pipes, for example). For another, what do you do with all that landfill? For another, bureaucrats *never* cut out regulatory crap.
There are a bunch of reasons why you can't build a subway as fast as you could in 1904. How many died building the original IRT, and how many were maimed? Safety practices slow things down relative to then. How many utilities had to be moved to build the original IRT? I'd guess a lot less. Perhaps they will bore a lot of the tunnel, but that requires big shafts to get the machinery down there. Lots of utilities to move.
How many large buildings lined the route of the original IRT when it was built? They complicate the digging a lot.
I don't mean to minimize the beauracratic stupidity that will string out this project, but it is a bit silly to compare building a subway in manhattan now to building one in 1904.
25 years is ridiculous though. That's a lack of commitment on the part of the people at the very top. It could certainly be done in something like 10.
Another thing - we keep hearing "studies" being mentioned. Are they really studies (gee, should we build this?) or are they designs - how exactly will we build this? Designing a subway in manhattan understandably takes some time (shouldn't take 5 years though!!!!)
I found it curious that when DC built the Green Line from U street up to Fort Totten (which took about 5 years, but was built through an area far less dense than 2nd avenue, with only 2 stations along it) they were scheduled to finish "structural work" a full 2 years before the line opened to the public! I had trouble figuring out what they could be doing down there for two years _after_ the tunnels were built.
Does anyone know when the green line to branch avenue will open?
[There are a bunch of reasons why you can't build a subway as fast as you could in 1904. How many died building the original IRT, and how many were maimed? Safety practices slow things down relative to then. How many utilities had to be moved to build the original IRT? I'd guess a lot less. Perhaps they will bore a lot of the tunnel, but that requires big shafts to get the machinery down there. Lots of utilities to move.
How many large buildings lined the route of the original IRT when it was built? They complicate the digging a lot.]
Today's more stringent safety requirements certainly add to the project's cost, but I don't see how they would slow it down significantly. Whatever delays vs. the 1904 work might result from safety requirements would be far more than made up for by more advanced equipment. As far as the utilities are concerned, it should be noted that Second Avenue has fewer underground utility lines than the other avenues - something done in anticipation of the subway work.
All this talk of federal EIS requirements assume NYC will get federal money. It won't. Sure, the feds might designate a portion of the money we would have gotten anyway to the project, but that just means NYC and State would have to come up with more of their own for routine capital needs.
NY State could exempt the project from state and local procedural bullshit, and construction could begin. THEN a consultant could be hired to do an EIS on the effect of construction. It should be cheaper, since it could be measured instead of projected (projections are usually 10 times the actual impact in futile attempt to avoid environmetal lawsuits -- the environmentalists HATE the idea of actually measuring, say, the ACTUAL impact of one large store and using to project the future effect of one proposed in similar location).
The FEDs could be begged for money later in the project. Again, Boston got extra money for the Big Dig because Tip O'Neil was Speaker of the House. To make up for it, the entire Northeast saw its share of national transporation spending cut below its share of population (let alone tax payments) the next time the law was up for authorization.
[The FEDs could be begged for money later in the project. Again, Boston got extra money for the Big Dig because Tip O'Neil was Speaker of the House.]
In the Boston Sunday Globe headlines, the cover story is a report on how the Big Dig's enormous cost overruns were being covered up by state officials. But this quote reveals a lot:
"...Project officials shifted $400 million in project and related costs to other state agencies, primarily the MBTA."
No wonder the T is coming up short on funding. I wouldn't be surprised if the Cellucci administration hates it.
I've been wondering the same thing about the 63rd St./Queens Blvd. connector. The tunnel's finished already. How long does it take to install rails, signals, lighting, etc. in a tunnel that's only a few blocks long?
[I've been wondering the same thing about the 63rd St./Queens Blvd. connector. The tunnel's finished already. How long does it take to install rails, signals, lighting, etc. in a tunnel that's only a few blocks long?]
Ever pass a government construction project? They just sit there, day after day, with nobody doing anything, and that's where the time goes! It's fairly obscene.
Many times, and I've always wondered why.
My favorite current example is the work on the outer roadway on the South side of the 59th St. bridge. I've been expecting it to re-open for months now. The work seemed to be moving along at a reasonable rate (for a govt project) until it reached about 98% of completion. Now? Nothing.
[Many times, and I've always wondered why.]
Maybe someone can answer that? In private business, work gets done quickly because the contractor doesn't get paid until it does.
[There are a bunch of reasons why you can't build a subway as fast as you could in 1904. How many died building the original IRT, and how many were maimed? Safety practices slow things down relative to then.]
Not by much. After all, they had to dig the thing by hand.
[How many utilities had to be moved to build the original IRT? I'd guess a lot less.]
Again, not really. The water mains, sewers, and gas pipes were already in place. Fewer telephone pairs and less electrical capacity, but the difference isn't that significant.
[Perhaps they will bore a lot of the tunnel, but that requires big shafts to get the machinery down there. Lots of utilities to move.
How many large buildings lined the route of the original IRT when it was built? They complicate the digging a lot.]
Most of the Second Avenue route is straight and easy by comparison to the route of the original IRT, which tunneled under a little mountain, flew over a valley, crossed a river, and had to deal with the shuttle route, the NY Central, and the old Lexington Avenue train tunnel. Consider the difficulty of building the line through the foundations of the Times Tower for example). Lower Manhattan remains difficult, but I think you'll find that overall things haven't changed that much or have become easier (no streetcar lines to rebuild, for example).
[I don't mean to minimize the beauracratic stupidity that will string out this project, but it is a bit silly to compare building a subway in manhattan now to building one in 1904. 25 years is ridiculous though.]
According to what's been posted here, contractors generally mention five or six years as a reasonable time frame. The RPA, which has proposed building a much more elaborate line with an extension in the Bronx and a new tunnel to Brooklyn, estimats 10 years for the entire project using existing deep bore technology. It really doesn't take that long to build a subway, even if governemnt does it!
[As far as tying up the capital for so long, that's one of the reasons that some cities/states do prolonged rehabilitation projects on functionally obsolete bridges. It's easier on the budget to spread, say 30 million over 10-15 years than 20 million over 5 years for new construction.]
But it costs a *lot* more money. If coming up with the cash is the problem (something I question, given that government typically issues bonds for these things), then it would make more sense economically to set aside a certain amount of cash every year and earn interest on it until the project could be built towards the end of the period.
[Yes, you probably could build a subway in Manhattan in 5 years, but you'd pay dearly for it, in terms of capital expenditures on the contracts themselves, and in terms of tearing up all of Second Avenue until the tunnel structure itself is completed. Most MTA contracts I've seen aren't big on incentives for finishing early (Williamsburg being the exception) and a tight schedule will mean much higher prices from the contractors.
Waiting longer makes things more difficult in many respects. Recently, material prices have kept pace with inflation, but if you were to see spikes in something like cement prices, you're old price estimates are out the window. Additionally, the construction labor pool is seriously short. For all of the talk about how much the unions make, they still have trouble attracting enough people for all of the positions that they can fill. This will mean higher costs for labor, and if the labor requirements are too large, i.e. you're trying to build too much at once, then you won't be able to find enough people at any price. Believe me, many large contractors are paying significant amounts of money to skilled workers to keep them around, above and beyond union scale.]
But five years seems to be fairly standard for building a line of that length. We aren't talking about fast tracking here, because subway construction lends itself to multiple sites and contractors. The labor pool might be more of a problem, but with nothing much going on now in the way of office construction I find it hard to believe that sufficient workers couldn't be rounded up. The original IRT was built by 3400 workers in a four year period, working with axes, shovels, and dynamite. We use more power equipment today, but that only reduces the size of the labor requirement. Surely a city of 8 million or so, several hundred thousand of whom receive public assistance, can come up with a few thousand people to do grunt work and, in the case of the more able, learn skilled trades? I know that there are difficulties--the GC's I know run around like headless chickens trying to keep up with a labor pool that's frequently scary in its lack of competence--but much of our infrastructure was built with unskilled labor immigrant. Isn't that just the sort of thing we need to get people off welfare?
>>>I read in the papers today that they expect it would take 16-25 years to build a full-length Second Ave.
subway. I would think that in 25 years, they could build a subway from NYC to LA! Why could it
possibly take so long? It seems to me that they should be able to build it in 8-10 years. <<<
Unions, brotha!
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Unions, brotha!]
Genesis, after God joined the Deity's Union:
1. On the first day, God rested. 2. And on the second day, God rested. 3. And on the third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh days He did the same thing.
Also, will new stations be built on the 7 at the UN or on 60th and 63rd at second for a connection to the 2nd Avenue Subway?
I asked the same question a few months back. The response that was given indicated that, due to the grades on the 7 line at that point, it would not be practical to construct a station. Apparently the tunnel is sloped sufficiently that (1) it would be difficult to precisely stop a train on the downgrade, or to start one on the upgrade, and (2) the slope of the station platform would be dangerous for pedestrians. A third reason given, not related to the grade, was that there was little room surrounding the tubes at that point for station construction.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It would be interesting to find out what the downgrade is at the south end of the Rector Street station on the N/R, and how close that is to the grade for the 7 train between First and Second Aves.
I know that from about the midway point of the station at Rector to the south end, the tile row that starts near the platform ends up at the ceiling, which means about a one level drop in 300 feet.
What about Q, a station between 1st and 2nd avenues would somewhat attract the people now using Lex line at 59th and 68th streets.
Arti
[Also, will new stations be built on the 7 at the UN or on 60th and 63rd at second for a connection to the 2nd Avenue Subway?
I asked the same question a few months back. The response that was given indicated that, due to the grades on the 7 line at that point, it would not be practical to construct a station. Apparently the tunnel is sloped sufficiently that (1) it would be difficult to precisely stop a train on the downgrade, or to start one on the upgrade, and (2) the slope of the station platform would be dangerous for pedestrians. A third reason given, not related to the grade, was that there was little room surrounding the tubes at that point for station construction.]
Very interesting. But since it's ridiculous not to have a connection there, why not build a third tunnel segment with a flat stretch and increased grades to make up for it, move both lines over, then do the same thing, this time modifyiing the temporarily empty far side tunnel, then move that train back, then turn the central tunnel segment into the new station? Assuming there's room for it, of course.
Seems like whatever the complexity it would be cheaper and more functional than extending the shuttle and cheaper than a spur (though I rather like the RPA's idea of originating the express segment in GCT).
Did my eyes deceive me or has the western entrance and exit to this station been removed? This used to be the way that students and faculty at Franklin K Lane HS arrived at school. I have the impression that a number of the two entrance stations on Jamaica Ave have lost one of their entrances, and I am guessing it was because of low usage. Did someone goof and remove the west entrance instead of the east?
Yes, the Eldert's lane enterance has been removed, about 10 years ago, IIRC. Only the 75th St. enterance remains.
Chris,
I thought my best chance of an answer would be from you. I noticed the absence of the stairs from the platform level, and I assume that the stairs from the street to the mezzanine were removed as well. My big question is did they remove the entire mezzanine or waiting room from the elevated structure? I guess it is possible that it is still hanging there unused, just below the steel track girders, and completely inaccessible.
If students and faculty are still permitted to ride the trains, they are apparently walking to the east end, to use the 75th St entrance.
Yes, the entire mezzanine was removed. Many J stations had mezzanines removed during their rehab in 1989-90. The Forest Pkway and 102nd. St. mezzanines were removed from their respective stations, thus necessitating ths station's name to be changed.
I had two favorite stations on the line, 168th St and 111th St. 168th St is completely gone and 111th St no longer serves the purpose for which I liked it.
If you mean that the 111th St. middle track no longer stores layed up trains, you'd be suprised to see that it does use them occasionally. However, that track is in abysmal shape.
In those old days before Oct 13th 1950, 111th St was the terminal for the east end of the Lexington Ave Line during rush hour. It was fascinating in those days to stand near the east end of the "to city" platform, and see three car gate trains sent west increased to five car trains at the beginning of rush hour. Near the end, five car trains were reduced to three cars. Normally a dozen or more extra cars were stored on the middle track between the platforms during non-rush hours. Actual coupling and uncoupling was done on the middle track to the east of the station toward 121st St. Control of the operation seemed to be from a small building at the east end of the "to city" platform. It was a very busy place during rush hour, and an interesting operation to watch. Remember that every other train was a "Steel" through train for 168th St.
The exit to 113th St. had been closed for some time prior to being dismantled. I remember visiting some family friends who live on 113th St. back in 1978, and after getting off the train, I had to hoof it all the way back to the 111th St. end of the station to exit. Also, the Saturday school I had attended in Brooklyn moved to Holy Child Jesus School in 1970, which was on 111th St. and next to the station. By then, however, my father was driving us there each Saturday, much to my dismay. We wouldn't have made it on time by bus and subway.
"I had to hoof it"
Glad to hear you were in my shoes (or actually, feet).
You like that, eh? Put it this way: I walk fast.
Not only is there no longer an entrance at Eldert (formerly Elderts) Lane for the Elderts Lane station, but there is also no longer an entrance at Forest Parkway for the Forest Parkway station.
This is presumably why the new maps no longer use those names, instead calling those stations "75th Street" and "85th Street", respectively.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I never cease to be amazed at everything that has changed since I left. Knowing the traffic that the Elderts Lane entrance had from that school, and the fact that the school is still there makes the closure of the entrance seem sort of stupid. Perhaps the demolition of Dexter Park contributed, although people for Dexter Park should have used the 75th St entrance. I just realized that Dexter Park was probably torn down almost forty years ago.
I am hundreds of miles away, trying to understand changes to a station I haven't seen since 1954. That's sort of stupid in itself.
"I am hundreds of miles away, trying to understand changes to a station I haven't seen since 1954. That's sort of stupid in itself."
Not stupid in the least!!
Your efforts keep you in touch with your roots, and also allow people who are younger to benefit from your perspective. I, as a current resident of that area, read everything you post with great interest!
Also, I look for posts of yours on questions that involve the history of my neighborhood, and I am disapponted when I don't see them. For example, a few weeks ago, I asked about the history of Woodhaven Blvd. Certain things suggested to me that Woodhaven Blvd. was, for much of this century, not really considered to be the major thoroughfare that it is today.
I got several very good answers to that question, including a look at an old map (thanks to Kevin Walsh) which showed the street pattern that formerly existed in Rego Park before Woodhaven was widened. This showed the old route of Trotting Course Lane, and several other cool things.
However, one thing I was hoping to get but didn't was a personal memory from you. Of course, this was my own fault, because I accidentally referred in my post to "Karl M." instead of "Karl B." in my post.
But, nevertheless, this is just one example to illustrate that there are many, many topics of discussion for which a guy with first-hand memories of 1954 is very handy to have around.
Ferdinand Cesarano
This station was once listed as a Brooklyn Station since Elderts Lane is in Brooklyn and the station straddles the Brooklyn Queens Border. When they closed the exit for Elderts Lane and renamed the station it is now listed as a Queens Station.
Does anybody knows about the details of what happen on the Manny-B reroutes back in 1982,and also about the Willie-B emergencey closing in 1988.
I'm not sure myslef, but take a look at the FAQ.
From 4/88 to 6/88, the bridge was closed do to structural problems (cars and trains). Re-routes were almost exactly the same as last summer's closure. The only difference was that the Z didn't as yet exist.
i would like to reccomend the vidieotape for all ( you know who you are ) etc.....
last series of posts from dave-hank-pig-(you know the rest ) and you didnt prove anything at all...
so to answer all of the last racist hate posts etc... rent.....GEORGE -ORWELLS....ANNIMAL-FARM .....!!
( you should own it to study and review and review !) .. maybe you have seen this film and or vidieo !!!
it reminds me about all of the negative flamage threads some of you have sent not just to me including racist
attacks and e mail as well !! when you watch ANNIMAL FARM find out what annimal you are in the film !!
in the end the PIGS win ( the transverse cab car co and supporters etc...) SPELLCHECK HELL SQUAD !!
other internet and subtalk and chat rooms have taught me that racism hate evil flamage personal attacks
are alive and well in america !! AND when i thought that the subject of "" rail transit systems worldwide ""..
was exempt from this same ANNIMAL FARM madness, I found out how wrong I was in that !!
finally after recieving a nice e-mail from heypaul he was right there are a lot of very lowlifes who hide
as weak cowards with no strength and or bone at all !! they ( some of you ) hide behind your computer
screens and hide your slime with your personal attacks that you would never do to my or anyones face !!
ANNIMAL FARM by GEORGE ORWELL ..!! also i agreed with heypaul life is certanly worth more than
some of the idiots that call themselves subtalkers and thier off topic harrassing flamage posts !!
i guess i do blame myself some of you fools out there aint worth it .... !!
DO NOT GET THE MOVIE!!! READ THE BOOK!!!
I read the book this year and was given the test that is given to 12th graders in NYC. If you haven't read it, it is a great book.
BTW, Dave, I am not attempting to turn SubTalk into Amazon.com2 but it was one of the better books I read in school this year.
Hey Salaam, the book "Animal Farm" is alot better than the movie.
yea !... the book is better than the cartoon film- is that not how it usually goes!!?... i do agre with you there !!
like the second taking of pelham 1-2-3.. was not even close to the.. first film !! ... now about the rest of my last post ?....
Hey Pigs, do you know Napoleon or do you hang with Snowball's crew. Also can I get you opinion on this, four legs good, 2 legs better?
Two legs are better, I walk on them unless I need to run somewhere when I use 4 for better stability. And I know neither of them, but I am aware of their work, and Napoleon sucks! He totally bastardised Animalism!
Thanks Dav!
Here's The Question--
I have noticed that on the R-142s that the "storm doors" or the doors passengers use to switch cars have been changed from the traditional 1 door to the (new?) two door style. Why has this been done? Wouldnt this make it harder to switch cars is a passanger has children and has to use both hands to slide open the two doors, or is this an engineering improvement and am I just missing the point?
Thx
Funniest thing I ever saw with split car end doors was on the LIRR years ago. They actually had a few (VERY few) MP54 motor trailers left (the 1000 series) that had these things. You'd pull one side shut, an the other side would automatically shut.
Well, one conductor stuck his head through a set of these doors into the passenger compartment to call out a station name, then pulled the already-opened half of the door near his front, shut. Guess he didn't realize what car he was in, the other half of the door hit him in the back of the head and knocked his hat off, which rolled right down the steps of the moving train onto the roadbed!!
And wouldn't you know, he pulls the emergency brake rope, the train shudders to a stop and he walks back to get the hat. We sat there, between Amityville and Copiague for about five minutes!! Anyone that didn't see the door/hat situation would never have known what happened. And this was in the days before radios.....
The R-110a also has this feature. I have never been on either the 110a or 142, but I think they both open if one is opened because the doors are opened an equal distance from the center to allow the wires to go through. The Amtrak Turboliner also has double end doors, though they automatically slide open when a button is pushed.
Maybe they are NJ transit style. There is a button near the bottom half. Push it and the doors open. The new Comet 4 has this feature.
But not with double doors. I especially like the button near the floor to kick when my hands are full (both NJT and AMTRAK). If you want to check it out, the Turboliner departs Albany 12:NOON, and Poughkeepsie at 1:01 and arrives in NYP at 2:25 PM weekdays. It returns to Albany Monday thru Thursday at 4:30, first stop Rhinecliff-Kingston. Unreserved. Fare is from $19 to $23. Train consists of 2 Buisness class cars / engines, 2 coaches, 1 coach / café car.
This is true both doors open when you open either one. This is done for ADA compliance, making the doorway wide enough for a wheel chair to pass. One larger door would be too heavy.
Peace,
Andee
The doors are wired together, so that opening one opens the other equally. The passage between cars is now supposed to be wide enough for a wheelchair.
-Hank
Why on earth would a weelchair passenger go between cars! And why would the MTA encourage passage between cars? Remember those "Don't take the risk" ads of the late 80's? How 'bout those passengers are prohibited to ride between cars stickers?
Another example of MTA "ingeniousness", to allow handicapped people to go into the same dangerous areas as non-handicapped folk.
Hey, if its equal access they want, its equal access they get. BTW does riding b/t the cars give one any cool railfan views. I think it might be cool in some of the trans-river tubes.
Riding between cars on R-44/46/68 cars is neat, especially on sharp curves. I was only able to do this 2 times. On the Rock Pk. shuttle, it is neat to look down while going over the bridge to Broad Channel. On an R-68 N I unwillingly went through the tunnel to Manhattan in between cars as I could not hold on and hit the little switch to allow me into the next car at the same time. Don't remember what it looked like, had to close eyes due to wind (R68s appear to go faster from between cars.) To find an unlocked door on 75' cars look for the blue light to be lit on the exterior end of the car. On R-46 only: blue light cab cars at cab end - this indicates an unlocked cab. Useful to see the codes / messsages for digital signs (on a metal plate inside cab).
It may be "neat" but it is not safe. Those doors are locked for a reson.
--Mark
It may be "neat" but it is not safe. Those doors are locked for a reason. (Man I can't spell today to save my life!)
--Mark
No reason for Rock Pk. shuttle - tracks were designed for 85' cars, and no sharp curves.
Also no reason for Franklyn S. Straight line!
Understandable on B'way line near Canal (can't even see next car's storm door due to sharp curve).
Slightly unrelated: Why are they locking end doors on R40 slants! I couldn't get to the front of the Q without running along the platform!
That's news to me. When the slants were new, the storm doors on the A ends were locked because it was deemed too dangerous. This was before all that extra stuff got grafted on. A few years back when they were still running on the B, I made my way through the train to the first car in pouring rain - passing between cars while the train was pausing at a station stop.
Americans with
Disabilities
Act
Remember, even disabled people have the right to do dangerous things. I doubt the MTA really wants this, rather, they're being forced into it by yet another well intentioned, but misguided ferderal law.
I'm waiting for the ADA people to start demanding elevators in every subway station. That would only cost what? 5, 6 billion?
I remember Evil Keneviel on the radio years ago. I always found the M series design to be particularly stupid though, esp given that you'r passing between cars unprotected at speeds that easily approach 80 mph. why the LIRR/Metro-North never went with an A car B car design (like the '54s were), is beyond me.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few
Peace,
Andee
or the one..
This brings up a question I've had for a while.
Why aren't subway cars articulated?
I recall seeing the triple set at the Transit Museum and they were indeed articulated.
Metro-North and LIRR also have articulated connections. Why don't NYC subway cars have them also. I figure cost may have something to do with it, am I right. Seems that for the going cost of a subway car - how much more can an articulated connection cost?
Apparently New York City doesn't have articulated subway cars because the BMT went out of business in 1940 :)
The IND did consider articulation before it decided on the R-1 design.
From my History of the Independent Subway:
Various studies had been done to determine the "optimal" type car for minimizing station dwell time. With the success of the BMT's D-type Triplexes, articulation was considered for a while because of its economies (two bodies sharing one truck) but in the end, articulation was not chosen. Instead of one larger side door opening in a single frame on each side, two side doors, half the size, slid open in one frame. This has been the standard on nearly all car orders ever since.
I guess John Madison (he designed the R-1) never considered an articulated unit with 2 sliding doors instead of one, ala the Triplex.
--Mark
--Mark
Correct me if I am wrong but IIRC the IND also considered 6 doors per side.
Peace,
Andee
That I don't know.
--Mark
AND seats in the middle
Peace,
Andee
Neither MN or LIRR cars are articulated. Articulated generally means that both cars share a truck, like the TGV, talgo, or many LRVs.
With commuter stuff, it's not really needed, though with high speed stuff, it's pretty much a nessecity, as it leads to greater stability.
that said, the bombardier cars on MN have an awffuly close connection through them, much better than the Ms or the (sl)amfleets.
Hey Phil, I know this is off topic but since we both share the other riding hobby have you been biking lately? I just bought a new battery for my hog and took a nice ride to Jones Beach taking the Meadowbrook to and the Wantagh from. Now I gotta get a battery for my rice burner.
Well....
Unfortuently, I'm stuck up at school in Hartford right now :(
Next weekend I finally move into an apartment andI'll have the bike up here. 7 more days...
I need to pick up a handle bar clamp for my Wide glide - the current one is forming what appear to be minor stress cracks - so I figure I'll replace it now, instead of later.
Was on the bike a bit over spring break (but it was cold all that week) - I can't come down for weekend (as much as I'd love to), because I've got a saturday class now (ugh) and the professor is kinda a pain about attendance.
Anyway, Thursday afternoon, I'm gonna be on a MN train to NYC, friday morning, picking up that part I need, and riding all day, then saturday riding all the way up here, then off to Boston Sunday (somehow - I wanna go to the MIT swap fest to get a signal generator, oscilloscope, and other electronic goodies. but a BIG 500 series Tek scope just isn't going to fit safely on the bike with me) then I'll be riding at least to class and a lot on the weekends.
Only thing is, tight connections on Bombardier Shoreliners and the similar Bombardier cars on NJT is that when switching, a gap develops between the connections and an unnatentive person might slip their hand in by accident and get it crushed when the gap disappears. On the NJT Bombariders I have seen the gap get so large that less than half the connection actually went to the next car, the rest went to open space.
The most interesting was when the Peck bridge in Bridgeport was being rebuilt. The temporary bridge was AMAZINGLY twisted. And restricted to 15mph. It was weird looking down an M-2 and seeing open air where the next car should have been. Also being able to sit in the first car, look to the left or right, and see your train next to you.
To this day, I'm impressed that they managed that tight a turn with no problems.
One thing that always bugged me about the M-series design was how far into the car the trucks are. There's quite a few feet hanging over. For some reason, this seems unstable. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I've noticed the Acela stuff is pretty extreme too.
I think you're confusing articulated with diaphram. Articualted generally means (in transit terms) that there are two bodies sharing a common wheelset. A diaphram is the rubber or vinal edge around a door opening that keeps the connection between the two seperate cars (or articulated bodies) somewhat weatherproof.
If these were installed on NYCT cars, you can bet they'd be vandalized within an hour. On Amtrak cars, there is no gap between the cars, the threshhold plates are flexible, and meet each other flush.
-Hank
Yes, Mr Eisenstein, you're right. That is what I meant. I meant that the cars are joined so close that there is a very small gap between the cars.
I could see this diaphragm being vandalized, but I wonder if it would be possible to get the subway cars to meet closer than they do now. It seems that the gaps between even the A Division cars are still quite hazardous if you don't look where you're going.
Thanks
I would think that it could be easier to evacuate a disabled person on a wheelchair given the wider width of the storm door.
--Mark
The bi-directional doors are also on the 200-series rebuilt (1996/97) Pullman-Standard MBTA Purple Line Commuter Rail cars. In order to generate an opening large enough for a wheelchair, a single panel door won't work -- as it would be too large to "hide" when opened and still keep the doorway centered. Two-panel doors allow each panel to be half-sized, so that they can stow into opposite pockets.
Umm, two examples of perfectly good reasons for someone to be passing between cars, and why disabled people would have to be able to pass between cars:
1) Not every car will be on the platform at the next station. I don't know about the New York City commuter lines, but this is very common on Chicago's Metra at the smaller stations.
2) Emergency evacuation, but some of the cars are in a dangerous place to exit the train, so the conductor orders that the passengers move to a particular car to exit the train.
It's easy to call the MTA stupid for doing something that YOU can't see why they did it that way. But just because you can't think of the reason doesn't mean there isn't one.
[Not every car will be on the platform at the next station.]
I can think of 2 places where this is the case in the New York City Subway.
• South Ferry on the 1 and 9 lines, where only the first 5 cars open their doors.
• 145th Street on the 3 line, where only the first 4 cars open their doors*.
*The Conductor's position is between the 4th and 5th cars of the train, since trains on the 3 line are 9 cars long.
Very true, except that a handicapped passenger in the rear set of the train still would have problems since the storm doors of cab cars are the same as the regular ones. Many times I have seen evacuations done through the first few cars (one just today (well, yesterday)).
I thought changing cars that way was dangerous! Now they made it so WHEELCHAIRS can get through? PLEASE!
I thought changing cars that way was dangerous! Now they made it so WHEELCHAIRS can get through? PLEASE! Safety first.
Excuse me ladies and gentlemen, I,m homeless,have AIDS,lost my job ,my wife ran of with my lawter, my dog joined the space program, and I'm hungry. I slept in a shelter last night and my motorized wheel chair was chairjacked! I'm not receiving any city,state or federal funding except Social security ,free out patient clinic treatment at the Methadon center at Bellevue Med center. Althouth some of you saw me carry my wheel chair down the stairs and my legs look full ,muscled and my expensive Nike's show wear , I need to trouble you for a penny,nickle,dime , quarter ,Visa or Mastercharge. Thank you brother , thank you, God bless you . Would you please get the door. YOO, I said Please get the door!!
Excuse me me ladies and gentlemen.........
avid
You think they've invaded the subways long enough...now they're invading SubTalk! HaHaHa!
The City of Tel Aviv is seriously discussing the construction of a new light rail subway between the city center and the Diamond Exchange. The new line is projected to cost 600 million Shekels (@$ 125 million US Dollars.
[The City of Tel Aviv is seriously discussing the construction of a new light rail subway between the city center and the Diamond Exchange. The new line is projected to cost 600 million Shekels (@$
125 million US Dollars.]
In NYC, it'd cost a few billion shekels and take five times as long. God bless America.
Tel Aviv is a beach city. It is built on sand. They will NEVER finish building it. Just like New York transit will never finish building second avenue subway
By the way Jerusalem is also doing some subway construction
There used to be a subway in Haifa. I think it was called the
Carmelite. I rode it in 1983, but when I went back in 1988, it was
closed.
No it was 2 cars in a hill and one car moved the second car like a ski lift A subway uses seperate cars or trains
Haifa has an underground funicular system
The Karmelit was re-opened several years after you saw it closed. It is actually an underground cable car, not a subway. It has six stations with two two-car units serving them. As one goes up, the other comes down.
As of this year, the Haifa Karmelit is still in operation...I thought it was a subway my first time seeing it during a port visit to Haifa Shipyards (I'm a Sailor)
It looks like the Haifa Karmelit will be getting a shot in the arm from the building of a large municipal business center going on not far from the station at its lowest end and the anticipated opening of a new station of the commuter rail line adjacent to the new building complex, allowing transfers between the commuter railway and the Karmelit.
I am a former R32 Q Brighton Express rider, now ex-patriate living in a small town approximately 60 miles north of Tel Aviv. There was talk about building a Tel Aviv subway when I arrived here in 1978. I am told that the talk dates back to the 1950s. They are still talking and the former Prime Minister dug a hole with a shovel in north Tel Aviv to start it. I do not know if the hole he made is still there. The Tel Aviv subway is about as likely to get built as is the 2nd Avenue subway in New York. But then again, every now and then there occurs a miracle in the land of Zion and Jerusalem.
i hope u understand
It's two weeks too early, but at least it was Rosh Hodesh (new month, new moon), today. So, two weeks in advance, Hag Pesah Sameah to you too!
please email me i have a lot to ask u
Sorry, I can't figure out how to get this computer to make the connection.
[The Tel Aviv subway is about as likely to get built as is the 2nd Avenue subway in New York. But then again, every now and then there occurs a miracle in the land of Zion and Jerusalem.]
It will take a mega-miracle to get the Second Avenue line built in New York - Moses parting the Red Sea is child's play by comparison.
The Israel commuter railroad (diesel, not electric), which has had a station near the Diamond Center of Tel Aviv for about 50 years, opened several years ago another station in Tel Aviv, which has since had attached to it massive buildings and the largest shopping mall in the country. The commuter railroad connects the cities of Haifa and Tel Aviv, about 80 miles apart, with towns in between, to the town of Nahariyya near the northern border. It has flourished since the Rabin administration, and if I recall correctly, the number of passengers has tripled since then. It is now being connected to Be'er Sheva' in the south. Hopefully, it will eventually be connected to Elat.
[The Israel commuter railroad ...]
How much are the fares and what part of the operating costs do they cover?
Arti
The fare depends on how far one travels. It is somewhat less than the bus. Soldiers ride free, I think the army paying the railway a flat rate for this service. As far as I know it is not subsidized, although capital projects are funded through the Port Authority (since this linkage, the railway has fluorished). What the tremendous volume of passengers these days, I doubt that subsidies are necessary.
isn't there also a line to Jerusalem?
It has been closed. The trip took twice or thrice as long than by bus or car. Too bad, Jerusalem really needs a modern rail connection to get in and out.
When did it close? I used to pass it all the time on my way from Ateret Cohanim in the old cty of Jerusalem to my parents in Avraham Avinu in Chevron, right by the curve in Derech Chevron.
subfan
I remember around 25 years ago an incident that occurred during rush hour on a crowded Brooklyn bound F train. At the Kings Highway station, where the platform is on the left side of the train. The conductor mistakenly opened the doors on the right side instead where there was nothing but a 60 foot drop off the El structure to Macdonald Ave. below. They were very lucky that nobody fell out since the train was packed.
On NJT a year ago the conductor accidentally opened the front and back sections of the 10 car train at a 6 car station (Linden). There were people leaning on the doors who did not expect this to happen, and while nobody fell, it would have been painful to fall the 3 or 4 feet to the ground if you weren't expecting it.
Also, on the Main St. 7 local, the conductor opened the side that is usually closed off except on days of special/sporting events and not the normal side. After the train left many people were confused at the chains blocking the stairs to the exit.
Also, some stations (like Hoyt-Schermerhorn and 59th Street IND) have signs that say "WRONG SIDE - DO NOT OPEN." I think it would be pretty obvious if there is a wall on one side of the track that the side with the wall is the wrong side. They should have such signs on Elevated stations or other stations where it is likely that someone would fall out, JIC the C/R doesn't change sides by the time the train stops.
I remember a few days ago, a TO missed the 11 mark at Junction Boulevard. I guess the TO was a new one because another TO was telling him stuff about what to do. The TO off the controls often told the TO on the controls to brake when coming into a station and was telling him that its always OK to stop short of the mark because you can slowly pull up, but can't stop long because you can't back the train up. Anyway, the TO "student" finally stopped the train at Junction Blvd far enough that the first set of doors was not facing the platform. TO "teacher" says "Give him [CR] 2 buzzes" The doors opened and the TO "teacher" just stood in the open doorway until the doors closed. Good thing he was there.
more important is stopping short. The train operator was wrong. Conducters will open the doors as soon as the train stops and they are rouphly on the marker. If the train goes too far the train operater can hit the circuit breakers and make sure the front doors dont open. The rear doors can not be controlled likewise
I remember several years back a passenger killed at either Harrison or
Mamaronek on New Haven Line when the doors opened over the viaduct and
he fell to the street.
NJT Leaves the doors open on Hoboken division trains especially if they are long and inbound during afternoon rush hour (too annoying to mess with trapdoors.) Nobody is stupid enough to fall out, though it is windy if the doors on both sides are open and you may loose your balance. Many times I have seen people hop off before it stops while the train was entering Hoboken.
That used to be very common on the LIRR's diesel lines.
The train operator was NOT wrong. If the train stops short of the marker, proper procedure is to give the CR one LONG buzz and then pull up to the marker. Proper procedure for bypassing the marker and putting doors off the platform is to call Control and turn yourself in. All in all, better to stop short then to overshoot.
The BSS cars in Phila had a foot button that would trip out the door control relays. Anytime the m/m didn't want the doors to open he just had to depress that button. They would stay shut or close if already open.
In Boston we have signal buzzers and bells (no indication light except on the #3 red line cars). The m/m depresses a mushroom that activates a buzzer when the doors are all closed and it is OK to proceed. If he overshoots or stops short he gives the guard one long bell; two bells is the "all clear" signal.
I read in Passenger Transport a while back that the TA is looking into some positive protection system for door control - ie, some interface between the platform and train that would only allow the doors to open if the train is properly berthed. Anybody have more info?
They added switches to an R46 or R44 set that require the motorman to depress the switch before the conductor can open the doors.
-Hank
The last I heard, it was done on 3 R-44 consists. The motorman hits an enable switch that activates the door circuits on one side of the car. This 'enables' the C/R to open the doors ONLY on the side that the train operator has energizes.
Has anybody noticed several sets of mixed r-38 (8 cars) and r-32 (2 cars) on the A line? I also noticed that the motorman end of the r-32's is different than the variety found on the E line.
Any information?
Not sure, but I think it as mentioned awhile back that some of the R32's were rebuilt by GE up at Hornell, and those are the ones that will be seen mated to R38's on occasion. I think there were 10 or 20 cars done by GE, someone please correct me if I'm wrng.
It was 10 cars done up at Hornell!
R142 Boi 2K
10 cars were done, 2 cannibalized for parts. Interior identical to that of R38 except more poles (10).
The following R32's were GOH'ed along with the R38's GOH and so the fronts look identical: 3594/95, 3880/81, 3892/93, 3934/35 (out of service at 207Yd., cannibalized for spare parts), and 3936/37.
A few of them even have places where the marker lights and LOCAL/EXP signs would be! This picture demonstrates. You might have to scroll to see the whole thing. (I tested it at 800x600 and it came out OK. The part I want you to see fills a maximized browser whose width is almost 800 pixels wide.)
Info:
Cropped Image
Subject: R32 car #3893 (C)
Original Image Size: 257K
Dimensions 1536x1024
Above Picture Size: 47.5K
Dimensions: 832x343
Camera Location: Downtown Platform of the 42nd Street-8th Avenue Station
Picture Taken on 19 January 2000 by R.M.
All 10 cars are like that.
A fellow E line Motorman (and frequent SubTalk Visitor and ocassional Poster) and I were talking about the idea advocated here by some contributors: instead of scrapping, why not put extenders on the door sills (ala Staten Island cars used on the Culver local many years ago) so they could be used on the B division till the R143's come in. His conclusion: never happen. Unsafe. Why? I'm sure you have seen on ocassion, particularly around school dismissal time, young people, after they get off the train, ride "side saddle" on the door threshold and hold on to the roof. When the train picks up speed, the youth jumps off. With the extender, that problem will increase dramatically since there will be more room on the side. There is a big safety push in the TA right now. There are posters on the stations and cars, sometimes kind of corny, reminding passengers about safety (your mother...). Employees have gone to all day Dupont safety courses to reinforce safe work habits and they get constant reminders in the field. Surely, the TA will not do something which will be an invitation for passengers to injure themselves, even by their own stupidity!
Door extenders were used on old Lo-V cars on the Culver Shuttle, not the SIRT cars, which were the same width as standard B division cars.
subfan
That would be a problem. In the area between the doors, the MTA could put in extenders that sloped away from the train at a 30 degree right angle, which would make riding there about like trying to ride on the rear window of a Slant-40. But at the doorways themelves, there really wouldn't be anything you could do that would be cheap and easy (I'm sure they could come up with retratable extenders for the doors, but for cars that would be scrapped in less than two years, that would be stupid)
I supposed the bean counters could do a risk-benefit anaylsis and decide if the extra traffic they could add on the B Division over an 18-month or so period by using the modified `birds would be worth the possible liability the MTA could incur from an injured or dead side-rider, and whether or not the added platform at the doors would encourage more people to do it.
Going by the lame-brained (and in two cases, de-brained) roof surfers over the past few months, I think you're going to have teens trying dangerous stunts no matter what type of car the MTA runs.
Unfortuneatly, we live in an age of hyper-litigation, and non-accountability
A 30 Degree right angle?
I agree, but I figure there has the be some way to do it. Perhaps with a spring-loaded beam on the outside of the door, or some kind of block that moves with the doors.
-Hank
Right angle with the 90 and 60 degree angles at the bottom and the 30 degree at the top, of course.
If there was enough space between the door and the frame for a spring-activated thin plate to sprea out over the door extenders and then retract when the door opens, that might work, but it would have to be a pretty powerful spring to keep some of the local yutes from just pressing it against the door with their feet. Anything that strong would probably be too costly to justify installing on the Redbirds for what would only be a short period of use on the B Division.
As it stands now on the midnight redbirds are being used to get most out of these cars on the 6 line before they're scrapped. some nights all you see are redbirds.. why would for a short period of time redbirds be modified for service in the B division? its not cost efficient for a car fleet that'll be scrapped in 3 -4 years anyhow.
There still might be some "special" and "experimental" routes worth running, on the margin, if you had the cars. This is especially true in outer Brooklyn.
For example, one might run some express trains on the Culver/West End from Stillwell to Church/36th Street, inbound in the morning, outbound in the afternoon. Riders could hop an express, then switch to a local. The train would deadhead back to make another run.
Another example might be a super express on the BMT Broadway Line that turned around before entering Manhattan.
Or -- (no platform extenders required) a shuttle express on the Jerome Avenue line, that turned around at Yankee Stadium.
Consider squeezing blood out of a stone!
Re-assign the cream of the crop of LIRR M-1 coaches to be retired
to replace theOFF PEAK R/44's on the Rockaway Park shuttle
and the OFF PEAK
R/44's on the SIRT, In both instances this would include any Spares
that are on Stand-by . How many total cars and full sets,(8) cars
would be recovered? I'm drownding at clutching at straws , I
know a committee is being formed now in Far Rock and S.I. to
hunt me down.
avid
You know, how bad ARE the M1s? Long Islanders seem to think they are entitled to more than NYC residents, and LIRR workers are not the best. I'd bet that if you put them up in the Concourse shop the Dude could get MDBF up, at least for a while. If the 85 footers could make the turns, it might be nice to have a D roar down Central Park West at commuter rail speed.
I don't don't think they could make the turns, and dwell time , loading and unloading with only 2 set of doors would be a bottleneck for a RAPID transit system . but off peak shuttle service looks tempting.
avid
That could've been feasible had they not severed to old connection between the LIRR Far Rock station and the IND Far Rock station.
That could've been feasible had they not severed the old connection between the LIRR Far Rock station and the IND Far Rock station.
[As it stands now on the midnight redbirds are being used to get most out of these cars on the 6 line before they're scrapped. some nights all you see are redbirds.. why would for a short period of time redbirds be modified for service in the B division? its not cost efficient for a car fleet that'll be scrapped in 3 -4 years anyhow.]
The original idea was to alleviate temporary overcrowding on the L.
What I was talking about was non-mechanical (and therefore fairly cheap) platform extenders on the cars so they could be used in rush hour service on some of the less-heavily used lines. That would free up some of the regular B Division cars (R-40Ms and R-42s if we're talking Redbirds on the Eastern Division) to be used on the Q in order to open up the 63rd St. connector to full service earlier than is possible now, with the B Division car shortage.
The question there would be -- How much would putting platform extenders on 200 or so IRT cars cost, and how many more riders could the MTA expect to get by relieving overcrowding on the B Division lines going to Queens (or Brooklyn on the L). If you added capacity and addition fares from people currently turned off by the sardine-like E and F trains, then the cost of the extenders could be justified.
Bill from Maspeth brought up the fact that the extenders would be more tempting for side riders, so the bean counters at Jay Street would have to determine not only the cost-effectiveness of modifying the `birds for use for 18 months to two years (until the R-143s arrive), but also if they might increase the MTA's potential liability from some idiot riding on the side and then wrapping himself on a beam or a tunnel wall.
The Low Vs modified for the Culver only lasted about two years on that line before they went to the scrapper when the R-27/30s showed up, so it has been done before for just a short-term solution.
[A 30 Degree right angle?
I agree, but I figure there has the be some way to do it. Perhaps with a spring-loaded beam on the outside of the door, or some kind of block that moves with the doors.
-Hank]
How about a simple platform switch? Stand on the gap filler, train no go. Virtually no wiring, and it would eliminate any possible hazard to the innocent, clueless, drunk, or deranged.
I can solve the car shortage problem quickly and easily.
All it takes is a pair of wire cutters. Train Dude should
catch my drift.
[I can solve the car shortage problem quickly and easily.
All it takes is a pair of wire cutters. Train Dude should
catch my drift.]
You mean separate the car sets?
You mean separate the car sets?
No, I should think it would take more than a pair of wire
cutters to do that!
I'll give you another hint...I'm thinking of a number between 5 and 7
[A fellow E line Motorman (and frequent SubTalk Visitor and ocassional Poster) and I were talking about the idea advocated here by some contributors: instead of scrapping, why not put extenders on the door sills (ala Staten Island cars used on the Culver local many years ago) so they could be used on the B division till the R143's come in. His conclusion: never happen. Unsafe. Why? I'm sure you have seen on ocassion, particularly around school dismissal time, young people, after they get off the train, ride "side saddle" on the door threshold and hold on to the roof. When the train picks up speed, the youth jumps off. With the extender, that problem will increase dramatically since there will be more room on the side. There is a big safety push in the TA right now. There are posters on the stations and cars, sometimes kind of corny, reminding passengers about safety (your mother...). Employees have gone to all day Dupont safety courses to reinforce safe work habits and they get constant reminders in the field. Surely, the TA will not do something which will be an invitation for passengers to injure themselves, even by their own stupidity!]
If boys are going to flirt with Darwin there's nothing you can do. Remember that boy who lay down in the middle of the highway, or the kid who was mauled by the polar bear? Some kids are so dumb they hop across the tops of moving elevators. Nothing could be more futile than calibrating safety procedures to people who not only intentionally flout basic safety precautions, but do so with the specific intention of courting risk. And beyond the fact that many are being inconvenienced to benefit a few microcephalics, I have a suspicion that these attempts to compensate for people's irresponsibility contribute to the growth of that irresponsibility in the first place.
Assume for the moment that these Dawinian-busters had brains and no one would ever attempt such a feat.
In this age of insurance-for-everything and lawsuits-are-us, I agree that this would never happen.
Imagine if an R-9 type fan were still in use and a tall person got cut on it accidentally ... you'd have multi-million dollar suits up to the kazoo.
--Mark
I saw this graffitti on one of the "You can never be too safe" signs:
"Use condoms!"
sage advice, just not what they meant, I believe...
Saw that same exact grafitti. Forgot where.
I think 47-50th street concourse, by the Starbux...
Great advice for the subway surfers that survive.
Back about 2 weeks ago, I was subfanning on the search for R142/R142A's on the 5 when to my disappointment, there were no R142's...but.....
At Dyre Ave, I noticed that the front car of the next consist southbound was #7821 with that R21 storm window! I ran into the 4th car, and went to the first car to find a person there. That person is none other than Henry R32 #3730!
Anyway, we did chat about various subway topics, and looked out the window and I had wind blowing on my hair. But during the ride, there were a group of teenagers causing trouble on that front car, and interestingly had to skip Jackson Ave because of them. It was at 149/GC when those troublemakers were pulled off the train....
Anyway, we talked until I had to get off at Fulton, just about riding the entire run. I am not sure if Henry got to ride the inner loop of South Ferry though.
This happens to be the 2nd SubTalker I met in person!
Nick
I didn't get to ride the inner loop, but I got off at Bowling Green and got to see 7821 with the Gray sign and R21 storm door enter Bowling Green on the other side (first time I was able to see it enter a station).
I met a few fellow subtalkers last fall while in the city, although that was prearranged. The highlight of the day was a nice express run on a Q train along the Brighton line.
Being a Bostonian, I try to do some subfanning whenever I go back to my native NYC.
My last two trips produced some very productive results.
First trip was an interesting mix of trains...
The two A trains I got were pure R-38 trains. One of the number plates on one of the R-38 cars had a font which is different than the normal font used for R-38 number plates. That car number is #4119, using a Bold Arial/Helvetica type font.
I did manage to cover the normally unused 63rd St - 57th/7th Ave set of tracks because of a GO. Some of the R-68A's had yellow S signs, while the others had orange B signs. I kinda analogize that shuttle train to the unexpected guest to the Oscars (William Fulgear). That train consist was (S)5026-5025-5027-5028-5120-5119-5117-5118(N).
Then, my trip to Dyre, but I stopped over for a stop at Coliseum Books and then got on at Columbus Circle. Strange, strange happenings there, with a GO in effect. The 3 was running local on the southbound side, while on the northbound side, the 2 was running on the local track, but skipped the station (as normal).
Then, the years of our lives temptation struck again after getting off at 72nd, and a 3 came first, so I don't have the consist, but I rode on #1969, the year that the Mets pulled the improbable...win the World Series after a horrendous start!
Anyway, I did get on a redbird #2 at 135th towards E 180th, needing to transfer for a 5. On E 180th, all 2 and 5 northbound trains used the middle track. The 2 had a GO going express to Gun Hill Road northbound!
While waiting for a 5, I saw car #8888 on a southbound 2, which was I believe to have been the 9th car of that consist.
Anyway, my Dyre trip was covered on an earlier post, but after getting off at Fulton, I decided to take a short cut to my home, so I took an A, R-38 cars, one of two such sightings and boardings.
Then at Bway Junction, I saw the expected Slant R40s, with the odd couple 4426-4429.
The second trip, which was four days after I left, was by all means a totally hidden from view trip, as I had told no one other than a few of my friends and classmates, and was a day trip.
I managed to get to the SIR, but I got a rare boarding indeed, an R32 set on the R! No such luck on the N when I went south and stopping over before getting on that R. That car was #3640, and I took that to 86th, did some shopping and then went to Staten Island via S53. After getting off at Grasmere is when my SIR adventure began....
I really learned a hard lesson with SIR. Don't ride it if time is not on your side, as I waited almost 20 minutes for one at Grasmere going towards St. George. In fact I covered the whole line round trip and all the cars were R44 and numbered from 388 to 466 (numbers were unchanged by GOH done on them, if any was done). It took me almost a good 2 hours to cover the entire line round trip, and at the time I rode it, three stations were "last car only" stops: Tompkinsville, Richmond Valley and Atlantic stations, where Atlantic and Tompkinsville (under construction) had platforms which could only accomodate one car!
Anyway, end of my long post....
Nick
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000405/bc6.html
[http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000405/bc6.html]
It's an interesting article--nice to hear that Pataki's doing something positive for a change. Knowing him, that means he's feeling some political pressure from the RPA/Straphanger's Coalition campaign and the general enough-is-enough feeling about transportation conditions on the East Side.
Now may a good time to write Pataki and others supporting his actions (and criticising the inexcusable timetable and irresponsible financing).
thats the best thing a republican has ever done! i commend him! if that was grueliani, then this wouldn't happen.
Don't believe the bullshit. Pataki is in favor of studying a Second Avenue subway and pushing it so far in the future it never happens. It's 1967 and 1950 all over again.
Well, I'll believe Pataki once the groundbreaking starts.
Just like I'll believe all this LiPA stuff 5 years from now when my rates are low, and the lights are still on in the summer. I don't think that's gonna happen either.
Frankly, I don't see a third term in Pataki's future, though I'm sure he'll dangle a 2nd ave line in front of everyone to get it.
I really wish the politicians (ALL OF THEM) would cut the crap and build the damm thing already.
What's to study? They've had the plans sitting for a few decades.
I'd hate to want to see how these clowns (and the "transportation planning" types) would have handled things in 1900 - we'd probbly have a single light rail line from Wall Street to 34th street, and super clogged superhighways all over.
And I highly doubt NYC would be the major city it is now.
[Frankly, I don't see a third term in Pataki's future, though I'm sure he'll dangle a 2nd ave line in front of everyone to get it.]
Think so? He's a true mediocrity, but I'm not sure the voters have caught on to that yet.
[I'd hate to want to see how these clowns (and the "transportation planning" types) would have handled things in 1900 - we'd probbly have a single light rail line from Wall Street to 34th street, and super clogged superhighways all over.]
Bottom line: just about the entire subway system was built in the 40 years since the government took it over; in the 60 years since, virtually nothing has been done. It seems that London is about to privatize the system, and we should do the same.
If you were to privatize the system it will lose the state funding it receives. For example new jersey transit is a private company and not owned by the state they do however get funds from the state but not a much as if it was owned by the state they receive funding because it is called new jersey transit
If NJT is a private company, why is its website saying that the corporation is owned by the State of New Jersey, with a 7 member board of directors appointed by the governor?
Actually, Pataki has chosen to reserve judgement on the proposed bond act that will finance the 2nd Avenue Subway.
[Actually, Pataki has chosen to reserve judgement on the proposed bond act that will finance the 2nd Avenue Subway.]
The article I read said that he had withheld his approval until he was sure that the actual bond issue was free of local pork. And he promised that if the bond issue isn't passed or isn't satisfactory, he would find the financing elsewhere.
Of course, one has to question whether he actually intends to build it in the first place . . .
What i'd like to know is if the 2nd avenue has been discussed for so long and almost constructed in the 1970's why do about 1 billion dollars have to be spent to design and more studies? this is rediculous. IF the line were in construction phase during the 70's weren't blueprints drawn up and studies done, how much could changed between then and now? I could see utility lies possibly added since then but sewer and other infrastructure couldn't have dramatically changed. By the time the 2nd ave line is started costs will have shot up causing another reason for delay. So lets just say that if anything 30 years will pass before anything is done, lets face it the line will never be completed. Lexington Avenue riders will have to continue enduring cattle car conditions unless THEY speak louder at the POLLS and let the politicians know they want some action done and not more STUDYING done one ghost subway line. It probably will be a century before this line is ever started I won't say COMPLETED.
It will be completed when the current cycle shifts back towards public works as opposed to NIMBYism and general obstructionism. It isn't happening now however. They're just trying to scam taxpayers out of their money. I'm sure the politicians working on paying for these studies are in bed with the consultants and will get a cut of the loot.
[What i'd like to know is if the 2nd avenue has been discussed for so long and almost constructed in the 1970's why do about 1 billion dollars have to be spent to design and more studies? this is rediculous. IF the line were in construction phase during the 70's weren't blueprints drawn up and studies done, how much could changed between then and now? I could see utility lies possibly added since then but sewer and other infrastructure couldn't have dramatically changed. By the time the 2nd ave line is started costs will have shot up causing another reason for delay. So lets just say that if anything 30 years will pass before anything is done, lets face it the line will never be completed. Lexington Avenue riders will have to continue enduring cattle car conditions unless THEY speak louder at the POLLS and let the politicians know they want some action done and not more STUDYING done one ghost subway line. It probably will be a century before this line is ever started I won't say COMPLETED.]
Yes, it's been studied *twice*; the plans exist, and the $1 billion (which is far more than it would take to study it even if they needed to) is a total scam.
Part of the expense will cover the time it will take to actually read all of the old studies.
[Part of the expense will cover the time it will take to actually read all of the old studies.]
LOL--I don't think there's any question that there's work involved, but $1 billion is nevertheless ridiculous!
If discussing the Second Avenue Subway gets the LIRR to GCT built, then it will have done its job. Then the Second Avenue EIS could say the Second Avenue Subway need not be built because everyone with a job is going to move out to Long Island where there is decent mass transit connections to Midtown.
[If discussing the Second Avenue Subway gets the LIRR to GCT built, then it will have done its job. Then the Second Avenue EIS could say the Second Avenue Subway need not be built because everyone with a job is going to move out to Long Island where there is decent mass transit connections to Midtown.]
The fact that they're spending $4.8 billion, more than half the cost of the Second Avenue subway, to benefit 160,000 LIRR commuters when 1.4 million Lexington Avenue Subway commuters are in a sardine can is obscene. LIRR riders are already subsidized to an insane degree; what I don't understand is why the City doesn't use its veto power to block the project.
[If you were to privatize the system it will lose the state funding it receives. For example new jersey transit is a private company and not owned by the state they do however get funds from the state but not a much as if it was owned by the state they receive funding because it is called new jersey transit]
Not necessarily true. For example, NYC's private bus companies receive subsidies. In an ideal world, there would be few subsidies at all, public or private. But we don't live in one. Roads receive massive subsidies, and as a matter of fairness and practicallity similar subsidies have to be allocated to rail.
And, in any case, his premise that NJT is private is incorrect. As I noted in my previous post on this, NJT is owned by the State of New Jersey.
[And, in any case, his premise that NJT is private is incorrect. As I noted in my previous post on this, NJT is owned by the State of New Jersey.]
True
[Don't believe the bullshit. Pataki is in favor of studying a Second Avenue subway and pushing it so far in the future it never happens. It's 1967 and 1950 all over again.]
But people *will* start asking questions five years from now--I hope.
(But people *will* start asking questions five years from now--I hope).
Because of all the debt the MTA will be taking on, when 2005 rolls around people will be told that not only will no cars be purchased for five years, but if any money is spent on new projects (other than finishing the almost-done LIRR to GCT) the rest of the system will fall apart. If there is a recession, there will be no new investment AND the rest of the system will fall apart.
[If there is a recession, there will be no new investment AND the rest of the system will fall apart.]
The evntual scenario, since eventually there will be one.
I posted some detail about this on the BusTalk side. Not too much about subways, except R-142s being tested on Dyre Ave, AND for Doug the BMT man a shot of last years 5 boro bike tour in May.
Mr t__:^)
check it out
But they're not the subway companies.
And the IND (as a subway operator) was never a stock corporation.
Cute.
cant have everything
[But they're not the subway companies.]
FYI:
IRT = IRT Property Company, an Atlanta-based REIT involved in the development and management of community shopping centers in the Southeast.
IND = American Industrial Property, a Taxas-based REIT involved in the development of light industrial properties.
BMT = Blackrock Insured Municipal Term Trust, a NYC-based mutual fund.
A new club has been created for the R-142 fans in us all!
Click Here to Join the R-142 Club
This is serious, no jokes!
R142 Boi 2K
Folks--
Check out http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us/noprot/travelad.htm (can't find my instructions to create the link, sorry. But they're here somewhere...)
The short version is this:
Inaugural special: Saturday, April 15, noon-6 PM
Full service Sunday, April 16.
I'll wait till things calm down before I take my first ride.
Michael
the link for creating this goes like
< A H R E F = " [address here] " > TEXT HERE < / a >
so the link for that site would be:
Click HERE to go to the site
Too many spaces.
<A HREF="address here">TEXT HERE</a>
I was always wondering, because I will be going to Penn station on this Saturday, do the Dual-modes run on weekends? also, some lines like Speonk and Oyster bay have Dual-modes to Penn Station, does the Montauk have any? I mean from Montauk all the way to Penn Station?
Yes and No. From my observations near Wantagh on Saturday and Sunday mornings, the dual modes (the 500's) show up on the east end of scheduled trains sometimes, using the diesel mode and presumably not going to/from Penn Station. Through Wantagh on weekend mornings we sometimes see what I call "driver ed," eight-coach trains, with a 500 on each end rushing along the Babylon Branch, then soon returning at high speed. They often sound like they are in electric mode. I would be surprised that any weekend service is given to/from Penn Station with the dual-modes. It should be easy to check the timetables for that, as through dual mode service lacks the "Change at Jamaica" footnote. On weekdays, one often sees a 500 in service where you would expect a 400. You probably realize that weekend railfanning on the LIRR is much tamer than seeing a Friday afternoon rush. Best wishes.
Per the schedule, there is no dual mode service running through to Penn on the weekends. There are 4 dual mode trains in each direction during the week. One each to/from Speonk and Oyster Bay, and two on the Port Jefferson branch.
Does anyone know how many 500 series (dual mode) engines LIRR has?
I read there are 23 or 26 DM engines, though the highest # I've seen was 518.
Thanks, Henry --
I wonder if they've all been delivered yet or if they're all working. I was sure that they'd introduce a few more DM trips with the March schedule, but there's still only 4 inbound AM and 4 outbound PM. So that's only 8 of the DM locos in use at any time.
Chuck
Hmm... can't they get better utilization of their coveted dual mode equipment than 1 trip per rush? Do the DMs run a large portion of the electrified territory express? Assuming they do (they should!) then wouldn't they be able to get more than one trip out of the oyster bay set?
That assumption would only apply to a short distance type of route.
The PJ-NYP route is probably 60 miles in length so that only a one way trip per rush and not even a round trip is possible.
I guess you couldn't if you want those trains to be heading in at the peak of the rush.
It is possible on PJ line! Leave PJ at 5:44 AM, arrives in Penn at 7:20. Allot lots of time for error, leaves at 9:16, arrives in PJ at 11:10. Allot lots more time for error, leaves PJ at 1:10 PM. Arrives in NYP at 3:09. Allot still more time, leave at 4:19 or 4:49 PM. Stay in PJ until next day. Midday service is achievable with only one train.
Layover at Penn from 7:20 till 9:16 during the rush? I think that is poor utilization of equipment!
And wouldn't that clog up the platforms? I suppose he means laying up in one of the NYC yards.
Put it in westside. And anyway, I didn't come up with this out of the blue. The 1998 brest cancer victory direct train from NYC to Port Jervis left at that time +- 5 minutes on a Monday. It was the same equipment as the 5:44 AM from Port Jefferson, arrival at Penn 7:20 AM. It would have to be, since at that time it was the only dual mode train on the LIRR. They did it then, they can do it now.
I meant Port Jefferson, not Jervis.
[some lines like Speonk and Oyster bay have Dual-modes to Penn Station, does the Montauk have any? I mean from Montauk all the way to Penn Station?]
No. Speonk's as far east as they go.
I remember back around 1993 I saw a strange sign on one of the stations along Central Park West with a "C" blue sign and believe it or not a "B" blue sign does any other stations have different signs with color of incorrect routes. If you know write to me.
At Stillwell Avenue, the B and D signs in the vicinity of the passageway above the platforms. They're yellow instead of the correct orange.
I guess this dates back to the time when the B and D were running up Broadway instead of 6th Avenue because of something happening on the Manhattan Bridge.
Are you sure it was a blue "B" and not a blue "K"?
Even though the K had been discontinued by then (in early 1988 actually) some of the stations along CPW may have still had the blue "K" on either the entrance of on the station signs (people or should I say vandals would always peel off the new route signs and reveal the previous ones).
The lineup button consoles at 125th St. still referred to the K for the 168th St.-bound local lineup as late as 10/98. IIRC, that particular button was marked, "B/K". I wonder if they've changed it, now that the B and C have swapped terminals.
If one is BK, is the other one McD?
I seem to remember this, too.
It was either 86th or 96th, and the sign had *three* route indicators, none of which was K. Perhaps blue B-circle, blue C-diamond, and orange B-circle.
all diamond
I know some cars cannot show certain routes correctly. R68s can only show Q in Broadway colors. A few R46s can show the R only in a Brown Circle. One can only show it in a brown diamond R. Some R26's have Grey 5 signs.
I once saw a Not in Service 5 signed up as a Green SS.
[Some R26's have Grey 5 signs. ]
Why grey?
Arti
Gray was the color used for the #5 line before they color-coded the lines in the late 1970's.
Actually, the #5 started off as black when the first color-coded maps came out in 1967-1968. I believe it went to grey with the 1972 map.
It is my opinion that what appears to be a grey sign on the R26/R28 cars is actually a green sign that has faded due to exposure to the sun. Certain colors and dyes tend to discolor/fade faster than others. I wonder if any R29 #6 signs look grey...
Wayne
The color for the #5 from 1967 to 1979 was black and was shown as such on the 1967,68 and 69 subway maps. It was those computer designed maps which first appeared in 1972 which caused the confusion.The #5 was shown as a black disc in the route guide section. However on the map itself black dots indicated the subway stops so it was necessary to lighten up the black to a rather dark gray. The front of the map cover did however shown both the B and 5 in a gray circle.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[It was those computer designed maps which first appeared in 1972 ]
Did they really use computers for design in 1972? What computers?
Arti
I still see the yellow Q's and even saw an orange N and an orange R believe it or not. And, check this out, I see the F paired along with the G & R on the signs entering Elmhurst Ave, Grand Ave/Newtown, Woodhaven Blvd, etc etc, along Queens Blvd. As you know, the F goes express through those stations.
Late nights, the F runs local.
-Hank
Oh that's right, I forgot about that. Tanx Hank.
How about the E F G N sign at the entrance to Kew Gardens in the underpass next to the parkway. The N never went past 71st, and the G never went past there until after the R was sent out there, and then cut out at nights.
My guess is that they simply used a sign that was made up for 71st, Roosevelt, or Queens Plaza.
I also forgot to post this sign that I remember seening to at 168 Street station entrace their are some "B" letters signs shown their.
When I was younger I would always look at signs in the stations because you were able to see the old route, destination,etc..because they would just stick new stickers on top of the old ones.I'm pretty sure I remember seeing (underneath) a sign that the G and the N were going to go to archer avenue and that's probably why you saw that at kew gardens station.
You're not imagining things! The original signs on the Archer Ave Extension had more 'service notes' than 'The Map'! All they did was sticker them over. I don't know if these signs are still there, but they mentioned the G going down the line Rush Hours.
-Hank
F runs local late nights and weekends
At 86th and cpw street there is a blue diamond
I arrived home today to find, to my surprise, a present from the NYC Transit Museum: A full color 2000 calendar! It has some terrific pictures, though most of them are of current generation cars, buses, stations, etc., so it doesn't really compete with our friend Newkirk Images' calendar -- I'll hang them both!
I don't know how non-members can receive one, but you might try the Museum stores. (I am a Contributing Member of the Museum, so I can't even tell you if all members got one.)
I am very impressed that they even got one of my pet peeves right: It's "Daylight SAVING Time" (not SAVINGS).
My grandmother got this too and sent it to me. I already had the other one so I probably won't use it. Why did people like my grandmother and you get one? The letter with it says "Dear Employees".
Mine said "Dear Supporter of the NYC Transit Museum..." I am a Contributing Charter Member. Perhaps some of our fellow SubTalkers have more information.
My Grandmother is a member of the museum, not sure if she supports it. Other question for you or any other SubTalker and that is why did we get this in April? I'm never gonna use this as a calandar because I got it once a third of the year was already over.
We have a family membership and received the calender about a week ago. I had assumed that it had just arrived because our membership had recently been renewed.
And, Todd, wasn't the EST/DST concept changed several years ago making EST the proper term all year regardless of the time change? (Or is it a case of deficient memory?)
I got the calandar, too. It is because I am a New York Transit Museum Member.
Chaohwa
Wait a minute..It's APRIL. That calendar is shorting you 3 months!
-Hank
I rec'd mine back in November. But then, I know a person who knows a person who works for the NYCTA.
04/06/2000
I am a Transit Museum member and I received one too. Picture quality doesn't measure up to the genuine article!
BTW- YUP, am working on 2001 and all color images have been chosen. Can't say what they're like, but the front cover is interesting. Sorry, have to keep you all in suspense until the summer!!
Bill Newkirk
You got yours late, Todd. Mine came in the mail early last month.
They were also free for the taking at the museum about a month ago, too.
Speaking of the museum, when IS it supposed to close for renovations now, anyway?? It keeps getting put off ....
--Mark
As Mark said they were also avail. at the Brooklyn TA Museum store, free for the taking.
You can tell that I'm a rail fan if you come to my office since there are FIVE calendars hanging:
- Bill Newkirk's
- LIRR
- WABCO
- TA Bus
- TA general ... the one of this thread
And this month I see: LIRR M-1's going to Long Beach; M-1 at Jamaica; power washing a RTS wheels; New Flyer signed for M103; SBR move on Bay Ridge.
Mr t__:^)
wow!!! cHECK OUT mISS jUNE!!!!!
-hANK
hANK,
Are you referring to the train or the operator? I think the train's a hippo, and the operator's a man.
Anyway, I kinda prefer the 2nd (lower) September model!
I haven't seen the calendar, So I guess I'm talking about the train. I was joking, you know...
-Hank :)
A couple of years ago, I found a copy of the 1998 Subway Guide. I found it on the bridge that carries Queens Boulevard over the Sunnyside Yard.
Today, I found a calendar. On the front it says "TRACK 2000" and has a picture of the vacuum train in front of Yankee Stadium. It is most likely a mixed image because the tracks don't turn in front of Yankee Stadium the way they do in the picture. The Yankee Stadium part has the "24 World Championships" banner, and the "Louisville Slugger" smokestack to its right.
The picture was taken from the vicinity of 157th Street and Ruppert Place. There are no subway tracks in that area. The nearest subway tracks are above River Avenue, 1 block east.
The calendar had pictures of people who worked for different departments under the division of Track.
Anyway, I think those were good finds.
Ugly MultiCulti March 2000 Subway maps?
What the Hell is the MTA thinking?
The MTA is just trying to be multi-cultural.
R142 Boi 2K
Does anyone know where and when the R33 and R29 fan trips will be? Also, will this be like the R26 Fan trip when they put the cars on the B-Division like B4? As a matter of fact, A motorman I know, had pics of a Redbird on the F line on the last fan trip.
Lets just hope that the R33 Singles fan trip isn't in the summer. Whew, or if it is, they add an AC to it, or take off the roof.
may i ask what a fantrip is ??
It's like a charter bus,except you charter the train and bring it to places that you can photograph it. You have fan that are willing to pay the extra $$ to ride it one more time.
BTW, one fan trip I was on was the Q's on the Third Ave El in the Bronx. Our train died on Gun Hill Road. We could not find a car knocker with Q car experience.
Q's on the Bronx Third Av El?? Was that part of a big fantrip throughout the city? The Q's last ran on the Myrtle so I assume they were kept at the train yard at Bway Junction. It must've taken a whole day to get up to the 3rd Av El.
The Qs ran on the 3rd Ave. el in express service until the el was abandoned in 1955, then went back to the BMT. There was a farewell trip of sorts back then, but I'm not sure if the Qs were used.
do they run fan trips in the fall ??
Open all the windows and open all the storm doors. (They have that little hook to lock the doors open.) Put the fans on full and a great breeze will go through the cars.
Hope car 9336 is not on the train. Looks like a regular R33 (no center lighting track, no blinking lights).
If this fan trip should happen, it would be the last fan trip on equipment that needs to be painted. Everything now is unpainted metal.
Maybe they would repaint a car or two in older paint schemes? Blue-Silver, World's Fair? Unlikely, though I'd like to see a blue-silver car run the NYC transit system again.
I'm told that during the Gunn era, when the R-36 cars were being painted into what are now called Redbird colors, the folks at the Coney Island paint shop volunteered to paint the R-36s back into World's Fair colors -- and were turned down. It's unlikely that things have changed since.
David
Think it would have been kool to see the WF cars in their orginal colors with the old TA logo don't like the new MTA logo that buses and subways are wearing now.
My 2 favorite TA logos in order were the Blue and Red TA and the Multicolored M. A close third is MSBA's italic MSBA in Orange and Blue aligned with the stripe. Now it's just Long Island Bus. How creative.
also what is a fan-trip...?? is it extra trains when sports events are run ??
04/09/2000
also what is a fan-trip...?? is it extra trains when sports events are run ??
No Salaam, a Fan Trip is one charter train, usually chartered by a group. As stated before, a premium price is paid by the group through ticket sales for a special charter on a prearranged schedule of photo stops and photo run-bys. You would like the the photo run bys, which benefits movie and video photographers.
Fan trips are rare these days on the TA usually because of high insurance cost. Add to this General Orders for repairs on certain lines and out of service "Museum" cars that would make a fan trip special.
The Electric Railroaders Association here in New York put on some great fan trips years ago. My favorite was the "Farewell to the Jamaica El fantrip. With the closing of Jamaica-168th St and a few stations south, the ERA chartered D-types in the morning trip to Jam-168, lunch at Coney Island-Stillwell and B-types for a final trip to Jam-168 for the afternoon segment. Two types of museum cars and lunch at Nathan's, those were the good old days!
Bill Newkirk
one day i hope to be lucky enough to be there when a fan trip goes down !!
and will there be any museum or fan trips this year ( if you have the info ) thank you !!
sure would like to participate in this !! thank you mr newkirk !!
04/10/2000
Salaam,
With 2004 on the horizon, the NYC Subway system will be celebrating 100 years of subway service. There had better be some Museum cars up and running to commemorate this. Our subway will mark 100 years only once, if a government grant or private sponsership be needed to see the B & D types as well as the R1-9's running so be it.
There are no fan trips on the horizon, but I predict a farewell to the Redbirds fantrip sometime in the future. The last farewell to the Redbirds was with the R-30's in May of 1993. So I'm pretty sure a fitting farewell to the IRT Redbirds will be a must! Just keep yourself tuned here, a fantrip would be announced.
Bill Newkirk
LOL@add an AC or take off the roof. I'd love to go on an R-33 fan trip. The first train I ever rode, back in August 1978 at the age of 3 months, was an R-33 7. "Wow he remembers that???" lol, no just guessing, but I know it was the 7. I will miss these cars in a way, yet, I look forward to the R62's on the 7 line. I can now see silver instead of red out my window 2 long blocks away from Roosevelt ave.
There aren't any fantrips such as these planned right now, to the best of my knowledge.
The Redbird pictures you may have seen were likely the "Farewell to the R-30 Fantrip" in May of 1993. The R-30s were the "Redbirds" of the IND/BMT Division and generally have the same dimensions of the other 60' cars (R-32, 38, 40 and 42).
--Mark
Hi All,
I'm a huge subway buff but don't post here very often- I'm a 10th grader and am doing a report as well as an oral history (possible interviews with SubTalkers) on the subway. I have narrowed the topics down to two specific aspects.
1. The construction methods and engineering feats of the subway (Including all three divisions)
or...
2. The way the subway has effected the neighboorhoods that it runs through. I have heard that Washington Heights etc... had been a very affluent neghboorhood in the past and could try to make a connection between the infiltration of mass transit and "decline" of the neighboorhood.
Personally I find the construction and engineering process to be much more interesting and was wondering what your opinions were. Which do you feel will be easier to research and interview people on? The subway brought many novel technologies to the world when it was created that are still being used in engineering today.
Thanks for your input and feedback...
Please tell me if I could interview you for either of these topics.
-Harry
2. The way the subway has effected the neighboorhoods that it runs through. I have heard that Washington
Heights etc... had been a very affluent neghboorhood in the past and could try to make a connection between the
infiltration of mass transit and "decline" of the neighboorhood.
Personally I find the construction and engineering process to be much more interesting and was wondering what
your opinions were. Which do you feel will be easier to research and interview people on? The subway brought
You could try to make that connection, but it wouldn't stick. If
anything, rapid transit *made* neighborhoods, especially in the
outer boroughs.
Stick to construction and engineering. There is a lot more primary
material on those topics, starting with the book that the IRT
put out ca 1910, which has been scanned and loaded somewhere on
this (nycsubway.org) site.
Your question 2 is actually quite complicated, and perhaps not answerable in the context of a high school paper. (Indeed, perhaps nobody knows the answer . . . .)
The advent of transit certainly created many neighborhoods such as Manhattann above e.g. 96th St. and the Bronx. Transit existed in Washington Heights for many decades before that neighborhood went into "decline". It is very likely that the problems in Washington Heights are independent of the existance of the subway, but one can argue it either way. A similar situation holds for the Bronx, which was a desirable neighborhood in the '30s and '40s -- long after mass transit was built there.
Sometimes the installation of mass transit can cause a neighborhood to go up. The best example I can think of is the Davis Square area in Somerville, MA (Boston). Boston's Red Line was brought to Davis Square in the mid-1980s when it was a dying, working-class shopping district. After the opening of the subway there, it became a mecca for young people, drawn by cheap rents and a slightly funky ambience. Now it is the East Village of Boston, filled with hip bars and clubs, and rents in the area are very much higher than those in similar areas with no transit, and no cachet.
On the other hand, there are plenty of areas with subway access and absolutely no cachet. I think you could argue that subway access and neighborhood quality are independent variables.
Take Lower East Side.
Arti
The advent of transit certainly created many neighborhoods such as Manhattann above e.g. 96th St. and the Bronx. Transit existed in Washington Heights for many decades before that neighborhood went into "decline". It is very likely that the problems in Washington Heights are independent of the existance of the subway, but one can argue it either way. A similar situation holds for the Bronx, which was a desirable neighborhood in the '30s and '40s -- long after mass transit was built there.
Indeed. The Grand Boulevard & Concourse became "the place to be" when the IND Concourse Line opened beneath it in the mid-1930s.
In addition, the argument that a subway line causes a neighborhood to decline is not new. In 1929, Joseph McKee used that same argument to try to get the Els already established in the outer boroughs torn down. From my History of the Independent Subway:
Joseph McKee, president of the Board of Alderman in 1929, was not in favor of the elevated portions in the outer boroughs. He felt it would depreciate property values and slow business and residential development, and used the IRT Jerome Ave El as an example. He felt the Els would have to be replaced later on; they were a menace to traffic. Never mind that the cost of an El was estimated to be 1/4 that of a new subway. It turned out that building an El doubled land values, but a subway would increase land values from 4 to 12 times!
--Mark
What might make an interesting paper is a comparison of the construction methods employed by all three divisions (IRT, BMT and IND) and how they "matured" over the years.
--Mark
I agree with the others that accurately measuring the impact of transit on a neighborhood is well beyond the scope of any high school paper. Stick with engineering feats.
As a specific note, though, I'll offer up the suggestion that the decline in Washington Heights came more from the combination of drugs and easy access to the GW bridge than from all other sources combined.
Flame Bait!
Now that I've lured you with a deceptive Subject line, let
me get to my real complaint, about Subtalk Posters. Not
the individuals on this discussion forum, but the car cards
put out by the MTA bearing the "SubTalk" title.
Some of these are marginally useful, such as the MetroCard
instructions. Others are inane. I believe the current top
prize for poor composition and grammar goes to the following:
PLEASE DON'T SLIP, TRIP OR FALL.
They are the leading cause of accidents, both here and
in the bathtub.
It troubles me to no end that someone, or perhaps several people,
actually received payment to draft this drivel. What the hell
does it mean??!! Discarding the lame attempt at humor, which
ranks up there with the podiatrist's ad that says "...great
strides (no pun intended) have been made in the field of podiatry...",
we have not only a dangling pronoun, but an incorrect analysis
of accident theory. Are slips, trips and falls causes of
accidents, or are they in fact the accident? Moreover, I don't
understand the logic of requesting that passengers PLEASE not
have an accident?!
What's next? "Please, don't have a heart attack, stroke or
epileptic seizure" Oy!
"Flame Bait" indeed !
As you may know from my previous comments, I'm selective about what I click on. So I think here's a serious fellow, who I also consider a friend, must be a post of profound significance ... you got me.
Mr t__:^)
A good one, Jeff!
I have also wondered if the SubTalk Poster telling you what to do if your Metrocard doesn't work encourages crime: Please Swipe Again.
As for the grammar, we all know that a preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence with. VEY!
I just saw a commercial that had a quick clip of an R40 displaying an orange circle on the front, but the clip was over before I caught the letter. I think it might have been the F. What lines does the R40 run on?
It would have to have been a Q; not an F.
Slant R40 can be found on the "Q", "N" and "L" lines. On the weekends, the "B" line has one or two trains of them.
Straight-ended R40, also known as R40M, can be found on the "J", "L",
"M" and "Z" lines.
Wayne
Of course if the film clip was 30 years old it could've been the "F" as if I remember correctly they started on the "F".
But I think when they ran on the F it was with the big rectangular color block with the huge letter F. By the time the Slants got the circle lettering, they were over on the A.
And it weren't ORANGE, either - it was Magenta. You are correct - they got the bullet sign when they were transferred from Jamaica-Yard to Pitkin/207th Street in 1977.
Wayne
Wasn't that about the time the R-42s were also fitted with bullet signs as well? I think they redid both of those car classes at the same time.
I remember very well the first time I tried to identify an F train of slant R-40s at 34th St. My mother had to point out the humungous magenta F to the right of the storm door; I was looking for signs above the storm door.
The R-40s premier on the Q Line mostly, with some on the L as well, on the weekend you can see some on the B and L, and at least on two separate occassions I've seen a set on the J line But that was during the GO.
R142 Boi 2K
Forgot about the N line too!
R142 Boi 2K
The M does get a rare R40 slant set from time to time. The M was pure R40 slant during the Williamsburg bridge closure at only 4 cars per train!
Nick
Not a single slant R40 set has run on the J line in at least a decade. The only slants on the Eastern Division are regularly assigned to the L. A few from time to time run on the M, but this is unusual.
Since I ride the L train twice daily, I can say with much gusto that the R-40's (both slant and modified) are happily running almost exclusively on the Canarsie line. The J Line also has some R-40's, but for whatever reasons the slant-R40's are a rare site on the Jamacia line.
Doug aka BMTman
I believe the Slant R40 lacks the "Z" sign, so they choose not to run them on the "J" and "Z" lines. I have never seen a Slant R40 on the "J" or "Z". The R40M and R42 both have "Z" signs in their rolls.
Recently, R40 #4370 thru #4397, a total of 28 cars, have transferred from Coney Island to the Eastern Division and make their homes on the "L"; that's enough rolling stock for 3 1/2 full consists.
Wayne
What did Coney Island get as a result of the switch?
That's a good question! As far as I know - nothing, since these belonged to the "Q" fleet. This move was reported in the NY Era Bulletin but did not state a reason or mention a corresponding reverse move from Coney Island.
Wasn't one set of Slant R40 damaged by cascading water during the Union Square water main break a month or so ago?
Wayne
Yep, this is why no slant R40 has appeared on the J line for as long as I can remember. The slants were GOH'd before the R40M/R42, probably before the Z route was planned.
The L and Q with occasional apperances on the B, D, and N.
Not currently on the "D" - their entire fleet works out of Concourse Yard, where no Slant R40 shows its shovel nose.
The other lines, Yes.
Wayne
Why were the R110s past up? R110A IRT looks almost identical to the 142s a few minor changes but overall the same car built by kawasaki where are they? The R110B for the IND division built by bombarder now sits in 207th st yard and has not left the yard in 2yrs and yes both companys are producing the R142s. So all you happy R142 fans don't celebrate yet besides you will still have to deal with redbirds for at least another 3 to 5 more years.
R-110s were not really past up, they were the brain children for the R142-R142A-R143 Order.
The R-110A is somewhere wonder around the 239th Street Yard the last time I saw it. As for the R-110B it makes one weekday daily trip on the "C" line leaving 168th at 9:56a or 10:06a to Euclid and Back to 168th, Every once in a blue it'll make the 1:43 out of 168th Street.
R142 Boi 2K
Ok I'll buy that but everytime I go to 207th st the R110s are in the repair house useually broken up 4 of the cars are in the back of the house the others are on the yard tracks I went inside the ones in the house and power was cut on them like they were sitting there I went back 2 days later still in the same place does not look like they were being used they did however they did have "C" line route signs displayed. But if they are using this train don't you think they would run it on the "A" line instead of a local?
With only six working cars, there aren't enough R-110Bs left to run on the A line, so for now, they can only run on the C.
What do you mean by six working cars? I have it as six cab cars and three trailers. The cars that are in the repair house look like they are not moved they are facing the rear entrance of the pit area
Yes Six cars, when they run them on the C line, which is just about daily, the run in a ABAABA consist.
I have slides of this to prove this fact, recent ones like within the past month!
R142 Boi 2K
I have slides of this to prove this fact, recent ones like within the past month!
If you can, please submit these slides to Dave so we can see them in the Illustrated car roster. -Nick
Why can't they run all nine cars? It was running the A line when it was deliverd for testing. I was at 207th yard today 4 R110s behind a row of R38s having work done.
These cars are used for spare parts for the other six cars....
BM34x
It's not a ten car train, so that means that there is a 5-car R-110B rolling around, which makes no since because how and where are you gonna run a 5-car B Division train sent.
Maybe that was part of the 6 Car set, while the 4 cars sat outside, the other two where inside for maintenance, because they can't run a 5-Car R-110B while 4 Cars sit in the yard. Only 9-Cars where built. And only 3 cars became spare part cars.
R142 Boi 2K
Two cabs and one trailer were cannibalized for parts.
Was there ever a time that the Brighton Beach local ran only between Coney Island and Franklin Ave. over the tracks of what is now the Franklin Ave. Shuttle ? If so, what was the time period ?
There was both local and express at various time and on various days from Franklin Avenue down the Brighton, terminating at Kings Highway, Brighton Beach, Coney Island or via the Sea Beach to the Nassau Loop.
However, the implication of your question is: "a time when all the Brighton Locals went to Franklin Avenue, and all the Expresses via DeKalb."
Yes, on Saturdays c.1963. It was the final stage before Saturday Brighton Express service was ended for good. The regular express fleet of Triplexes provided the Franklin Local service, while R27/30s provided the Express service to Manhattan.
A couple of questions: Were the Triplexes on the Franklin local signed up as #7s? Also, the R-27s on the express ran local in Manhattan on Saturdays, Q signs and all, correct?
4/10/2000
[Were the Triplexes on the Franklin local signed up as #7s? ]
i've seen some black and white slides of the D-Types on the Brighton-Franklin and they were indeed signed up #7.
Bill Newkirk
Yes, the Triplexes were signed 7 on the Saturday opeation and the R27s were signed Q. On Sunday the R27s were signed QB.
All Brighton line trains used the shuttle tracks before the Flatbush Ave connection was built between Dekalb Ave. and Prospect Park, opening in 1920. Until then, the only way Brighton line trains could access Manhattan was via a connection to the Fulton St el just north of the present day Franklin Ave. terminal.
As Paul states in his response, weekend summer service from Franklin to Coney Island continued until 1963, but this service went express south of Prospect Park.
In its last few years, Summer Sunday Brighton Franklin service ran local, so that there were two Brighton Locals on Sunday. I don't know what the point of this was except to slow service and make the service less attractive and hasten its complete discontinuance.
Does anyone know where I can get the posted answers to the recent motorman exam? I think they were posted recently in 'The Chief' but I didn't buy it. Is there an online posting of answers??
Thanks
Is there an online posting of questions?
Other than Baltimore, National Capital, Seashore, Shore Line, Arden, TMNY and Orange Empire does any other museum have air-electric PCC's in the collection? Baltimore has the only Pullman-Standard built standard 46 foot Air-Electric, all the others are St. Louies.
Also, Seashore has Pullmans in its collection, but they are all Boston cars, which have the left side center door. Therefore they are non-standard 46 foot air-electrics.
I think the Brooklyn trolley museum has two PCC's from Boston awaiting restoration sitting outside the musuem on the dock.
Yes, forgot about them. The Boston "Picture Window" PCC's were air-electrics. I also believe they are GE cars.
Question 2: Of the PCC's in museums, how many are Westinghouse and how many are GE.
Our (BSM) 7407 is a Westinghouse.
Hey Dan, will you be volunteering on Sunday May 14 next month?
Hoping to see you then.
B&QT #1000 (TMNY) and #1001 (Shoreline) are GE.
Actually, we have three of them down here. Two outside (3299 and 3321), and one inside being worked on (3303). And yep they definitely are AIR.
Technically, these are the third body style, which was used on this last Pullman order for Boston only. This series was the third to last (TTC and SFMuni were delivered after) North American PCC order delivered. This series was retired in 1986.
They are primarily GE equipment, but Westinghouse is all over in the ancilliaries.
Paso Del Norte Streetcar Preservation Society has 9 (NINE) 1937 air-electric "standard" cars in storage. San Diego has one also (a repatriation), and a restaurant in El Paso has one too.
The El Paso cars are Westinghouse, and were the first cars delivered to the West Coast when new for San Diego. The only real modifications they recieved is to get a LARy style controller installed in the rear and a front pole for the backwards movements to the carhouse from the line. I have a photo of one car with a unique LARy style pole on it.
Do you count the "Dallas Cars" by Pullman, or Red Arrows (I think that's what the SEPTA's by Brill are called), i.e. dbl enders.
Shoreline former T #3323; SEPTA #8, #18, #21 (I think one of these was traded away to another museum).
Mr t__:^)
The Red Arrow cars are not considered PCC cars, even though they have many PCC features. They do not have PCC trucks, so under the ERPCC/TRC rules, they don't count. Even San Francisco's Magic Carpet cars are not considered PCC by the same rule.
The Brill built Rad Arrow cars are conidered Brillliners, which is not a PCC.
The ex-Dallas/Boston double end cars are true PCC's.
Yet most visitors to a museum would think ... it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, gee it must be a duck ????
I thought the same about pre-PCC trolleys, but now I'm beginning to SEE that they aren't all the same.
Dan, I do understand where your question is comming from and am not trying to start something here, just haveing a little fun.
BTW, I assume the one "Clark" PCC was cut up ?
P.S. "The Brill built Rad Arrow cars are conidered Brillliners, which is not a PCC." Didn't they also make a single way version that looks like a PCC, but has circular windows on the doors, or was that still another firm ?
Mr t__:^)
The "Clark Bar" car, PCC 1000 is alive and in stais at TMNY. Check with them for current status.
Brill did build a single-end version of the Brillliner. 25 or so went to Atlantic City, 3 went to Philadelphia and 1 each went to Baltimore and Cincinatta as a single car test. No further were produced, and the Red Arrow cars were the last railcar production from Brill in 1941.
The basic problem with the Brillliner was that it was "close but no cigar". Close enough to the genuine article but with it's own problems. The Brill 99ER1 truck rode pretty well, but not as well as a Clark B2. The square ends caused some problems, for example 7501 (the Baltimore car) was barred from the Guilford Ave. Elevated because of the skirts. The car eventually got standard PCC resiliant wheels, but it's non-standard feature got it scrapped in the 56 purge. Cincinatti's went to scrap in1953 along with their 1 Pullman, as Toronto didn't want them when the bought the others in 1952.
Don't know whether its "Air-electric" or not, but the Rock Hill Trolley Museum has a former SEPTA PCC which was re-guaged recently from Philly Wide to Standard.
If anyone's interested, here is the link for
The Rockhill Trolley Museum
I've added to my list, thanks.
Tell me about the RT, Rapid Transit Car. Looks like you have some other interesting items there too.
Mr t__:^)
I Like that Brill subway car - I've never seen one like that. In fact, I never knew Brill built subway cars - only trolleys. It kind of looks like our long-lost Bluebird up front.
wayne
3323 is no longer with us. 18 and 21 sit outside in the traps put on by Bill W., and 8 resides in Barn 5, 53 Track. Remember the car that was behind the R-17 when she was stored temporarily there while 1602 got worked on in the shop?
#8 got a cosmetic paint job, and only one of it's trucks was regauged. She still needs to have the ther truck redone. The car only sees limited movement.
-Stef
Oops I meant to say tarps put on the car, not traps! Sorry.
[#8 got a cosmetic paint job, and only one of it's trucks was regauged. She still needs to have the there truck redone. The car only sees limited movement.]
SEPTA Brilliner #8, which I thought was 18, looks mighty fine inside & out (I was able to climb onboard recently), but the big DO NOT MOVE sign hints at what you said. I believe #21 is the one in rather poor shape ... I do like PCCs you know.
Mr t__:^)
The Halton County Radial Railway has a 1938 class A1 air electric PCC from Toronto in their collection. The car is in beautiful shape both cosmetically and operationally, but unfortunately sees very little use for no good reason.
-Robert King
Illinois Railway Museum has a CSL air-electric PCC.
Click here.
AND they have a pair of 1926-vintage, 65-ton, Pullman-Standard Illinois Central Heavy Metal MU Coaches (with Pantographs) which are undergoing restoration! WOW! Talk about rolling thunder!
Click here to view these behemoths.
The page says it's under construction but there are images on it - takes a minute or two to load.
NB. These beasts are of the same breed that had the October 30,1972 accident with the tin-can Bilevel. I can tell by the interior light fixtures.
Wayne
IRM didn't stop there. They also have several old "Big Orange" South Shore Pullmans. When they were first built, they weighed in at 60 tons apiece, then when they were lengthened during WWII, they gained an additional 15 tons. I doubt if even a BMT standard could withstand a collision with one of those hulks. A Triplex, maybe.
IRM's Blue Goose 4021, the lone survivor of CSL's prewar PCC fleet, was part of CTA's private collection for years. A few years back, CTA made it known they didn't want to keep their collection anymore and IRM stepped in. Also included in the acquisition was Old Pullman #460, a sister of 144 which IRM has had for a long time, and Seashore's 225 (I hope that's the right number). 4021 is decked out in its original paint scheme, but does not run and does not have its front destination curtain. It was originally built for two-man operation, but was converted for OPTO in 1952 and remains in this setup in that it has pedals (bicycle-type hand controls were used in the two-man setup), plus one center exit door was sealed off.
There was another IC site I wandered into during my travels, and one of the photos was of IC MU #1501, circa 1970, as delivered. Seeing the Pullman MUs and then seeing THIS....made my blood run cold.
Here's a picture of the above IC MU (Highliner), as delivered.
Wayne
I know what you mean. Looks can be deceiving.
It is tin, naught but tin. They can't even withstand minor collisions amongst themselves.
wayne
Maybe tinfoil would be a better word. Those 1926 Pullmans certainly ripped through those sleek newer cars as though they were tinfoil. You can't mess with the laws of physics, either, even if you never studied law.
Remember Doc Brown's response to Marty's suggestion in Back to the Furute II as they hovered over Biff's car while following him?
Marty: Let's land on him. We'll cripple his car.
Doc: Marty, he's in a '46 Ford; we're in a DeLorean. He'd rip through us like we were tinfoil.
I can't help but feel that a BMT standard would have ripped through an R-62 in the same manner.
75 Tons each! Geez, that's the SUPER-HEAVYWEIGHT class. What kind of motors did they have to pull THAT weight? How long were they originally and after the modification?
Triplex? Nah, would have flattened them too. Would have rode right up the sill and over the top. Munch! Slurp!
Wayne
All of the Big Orange South Shore cars were originally 60 feet long and weighed 60 tons apiece. They had four 210-horsepower motors (GE, IIRC) and rode on Baldwin trucks. Can you imagine the R-1/9s and R-10s having that kind of horsepower? Whoooooeeeee!!! Like other interurban cars of that era, those Pullmans had generous speed capabilities, and were able to max out at 90 mph. There was a story of how Sam Insull, who singlehandedly upgraded the North Shore and South Shore lines during the 1920s, while on his way back to Chicago from South Bend in 1931, wanted to know if his train could go any faster than the 85-90 mph it was doing even though the motorman had the controller up against the brass. The motorman started kicking in 5, maybe 10 pounds of air and kicking it off right away, inducing a pronounced vibration. Even though it slowed the train down somewhat, it had the desired effect.
A total of 18 cars out of 64 were lengthened during the late 40s. Some retained their coach-style windows while others received picture windows and air conditioning. These beasts grew to 77 feet in length and, as you observed, 75 tons. Their motors were more than capable of handling the extra weight, especially after roller bearings were installed at the same time. In addition, heavier rail was laid along the line - 115-pound, IIRC.
There is a picture in South Shore - the Last Interurban of a Pullman posed next to a Birney streetcar in South Bend. Talk about David and Goliath! That interurban, even at 60 feet in length, looks humungous next to that little streetcar.
I made one round trip to Chicago and back to South Bend on them on April 1 and 2, 1967, and for the life of me, I can't remember if they moaned and groaned the way New York's prewar subway cars did. My aunt rode on them many, many times, but even she couldn't give me a definitive answer. Having been built in the 1920s, they more than likely had spur-cut bull and pinion gears. I know the North Shore cars moaned and groaned; I saw and heard Shoreline's 709 during a trolley pageant in 1980.
P. S. Keep in mind that even after their metamorphosis, a single South Shore stretch Pullman weighed THIRTY TONS LESS than one Triplex unit. I'd still say it would have been a fair fight.
The Chicago car I think is 50' long and 9' wide
Yes, and its trucks were mounted 3 inches off center so that two of them could pass each other. Chicago's streetcar tracks were laid closer together than in other cities, even though they were standard gauge.
1 - Evan thanks for the link to IRM, I didn't have it bookmarked.
2 - At Shoreline we run #1001 to the end of the line, even though she has to go backwards with a pilot to come back. Last Fall there was a bunch of us enjoying the ride when someone heard over the radio that the Mets had made it into the playoffs (the Yanks were already in), so it was just the thing to happen during "Autumn in NY, A Subway Series"
isn't life great ?
Mr t__:^)
The air-electric PCC at TMNY, B&QT #1000, was built by Clark Equipment. Click here.
I was reading all the posts about how people wanted a Subtalk chat, well i put one on my site. It should work for all browers. It's on right now is anybody wants to talk. I am going to try to organize a chat meeting where we can talk to each other in real time. I though that 8 would be a good time. I will be in the chat at that time if anyone wants to say something to me. In order to get to the chat type
chat.cjb.net/metrocard *or* Just go to metrocard.cjb.net and then click 'MetroCard Chat'
Hope to "see" you at eight
Metrocard.cjb.net
That's the same type of chat that the Conrail kid had. Its great for large groups. I'll be there!
I'll see if I can get there.
Pgitty, I'd ask people to let you know when the best time is so we can meet once or twice a week at the time most SubTalkers are available. Personally, I like Wednesday and/or Saturdays at 8.
BTW: We may be at least 1 member short. King Solomon may not be able to get on if Shabbat hasn't ended. I was at evening services last night but can't tell you when it ends this week.
On a 3 train this morning I saw what had to be the most distasteful and just plain bad-taste advertisement of all time. It wasn't one of those "have you been injured" lawyers. It wasn't Dr. Zizmor. It wasn't even that soft-core spread for KC Reaction shoes. No, this ad, depicting doctors wearing these space-suit like outfits, was for the city's Hospitals and Health Care Corporation and touted the virtues of the public hospitals.
It's been well established that the city's ludicrously high expenditures on indigent health care - its Medicaid spending is greater than the entire state of California's - have left transit, among much else, starved for money. Were the city to lower its per capita Medicaid spending to the national average, with an adjustment for the area's higher cost of living, there'd be more than ample funds for the Second Avenue line ... and yes, people needing health care services would be cared for quite well.
Oh, and if things weren't bad enough already, I had always thought that the city had 13 public hospitals. The ad listed all of them. There are twenty.
They also advertise heavily on local TV stations. What a waste of money. It's a 3rd rate hospital system that is an enormous drain on the NYC economy.
[They also advertise heavily on local TV stations. What a waste of money. It's a 3rd rate hospital system that is an enormous drain on the NYC economy.]
It's hard to figure out just what the city hospitals are trying to accomplish by running ads. Certainly not because they're hoping to attract more patients. The city hospitals have a "captive audience" of people without health insurance. Anyone who could afford anything better would be more likely to consult a Madagascar witch doctor than visit a city hospital.
I think that they are trying to attract more insured patients. Notice how they portray the city hospitals as clean lovely places. Sort of the Starbucks of medicine.
[I think that they are trying to attract more insured patients. Notice how they portray the city hospitals as clean lovely places. Sort of the Starbucks of medicine.]
I was in the lobby at Bellevue one. It's the only hospital I've ever seen that was visibly filthy.
Back during 79-84 I was recruiting doctors out of residency training, or from private pratice with admitting privilages in city hospitals. Our unwritten policy was not to waste our time on these hospital, that the private hospitals have better training programs and better doctors on staff.
It was hard to find AMG's in city hospitals.
If it makes you feel any better Pete, the "private" "non-profit" hosptials have been draining us much more than the HHC, since Rudy whipped the HHC into shape.
The HHC laid off lots of people to cut back the bloat. As a result, while they used to require supplemental financing the city hospitals now break even on Medicaid alone, even though they care for the uninsured. The privates charge just as much for Medicaid and dump the uninsured on the HHC. They need the money to pay for all those buildings they built over the FDR in the 1980s, and all the people that staff them. The pay scale is also much higher in the privates.
[If it makes you feel any better Pete, the "private" "non-profit" hosptials have been draining us much more than the HHC, since Rudy whipped the HHC into shape.]
Do I feel better? Dunno, being ripped off by the "private" hospitals instead of by the city hospitals is sort of like losing your life savings at the casino from playing the slots instead of from playing blackjack. You're still broke, no matter what.
I know this has been discussed here before, BUT- could you take a set of PA units, and run them on the IRT, and vice-versa with,say, a train of Redbirds and put them on the PATH? Or would there be clearence problems somewhere? I know they both were made to the same 'general' set of specs, but this needs to be asked out of curiosity...
Also, just why was the IRT made smaller than 'normal' RR specs anyway? Economy? Or were the motors of the day not powerful enough? Or maybe they hoped to interchange with the Belmont-owned els someday? My guess would be the motors-the first sets of LIRR m.u.s were about the same size also...
>>>Also, just why was the IRT made smaller than 'normal' RR specs anyway?<<<
One of the reasons is that Belmont did not want the IRT to be able to run freight. Hence, the smaller dimensions.
Peace,
Andee
Why would Belmont not want the IRT to be able to run freight?
Maybe because he didn't want freight deliveries jamming up regular train service?
My understanding is that orignially the NY Times planned to deliver newspapers by subway.
The Brooklyn Eagle did.
-Hank
When was the last time someone floated the idea of delivering freight on the subway? I can't imagine when it would make sense, but somebody must have thought it would be a good idea for some situation.
[When was the last time someone floated the idea of delivering freight on the subway? I can't imagine when it would make sense, but somebody must have thought it would be a good idea for some situation.]
A friend of mine, a rail buff, suggested this to his mother, who works for the Times, when he was a child. She mentioned it to some contacts in the Lindsay administration, and believe it or not, they actually studied the notion.
I'm not 100% sure this is true. Wasn't mail and the New York Times delivered using the subway tracks during off peak hours?
--Mark
PATH is short but wide. IRT is short and narrow.
The IRT later connected to the els in the Bronx, which MAY explain the width of the cars...to fit on the Bronx el. It's only my theory.
> PATH is short but wide. IRT is short and narrow.
Well, it depends on what you're comparing it to. For nstance the PA-4's are 51'0 over the anticlimbers and 9' 2.75" wide, which falls into the "narrow" class (compared to the IND/BMT, anyway).
It was a trip to Budapest, I believe, that gave William Barclay Parsons his ideas for the NY subway. Didn't Budapest have a subway before 1900? Are its dimensions similar?
--Mark
According to
Metroplanet it was opened 1896 and uses fixed catenary.
Arti
The Budapest subway was built near the surface, with a flat tunnel roof. That's where that idea came from.
According to PATH Officials: A PATH train CAN ran on the IRT but an IRT train car can NOT run on PATH due to the profiles of the PATH cars. In fact, PATH advised that when they (PATH) use the Sperry Rail Car, they can use only one specific car due to clearance problems.
Does MTA South Brooklyn Railway (Sbk) use the West End Subway Line To the Coney Island yard for freight service.
I saw an ad yesterday on the 7 train advocating better transit for New York. In the ad, there was a Washington Metrorail train on the Red line. The sign on the car closest to the camera said "Rhode Island Ave," white text on red background. This is likely to be an old picture, dating to the time when WMATA was in its infancy. The last time I rode a WMATA train, (When the base fare was $1), I saw flipdot signs on the cars.
Here's my question:
Do any trains still use scroll signs, or have they all been converted to flipdots?
Except for the non revenue equipment (clearnace car, money cars) all rolling stock have been converted or delivered with the floppin dots.
All are flipdot. The Rohrs came with them but were changed when they turned out to be such a failure. See "The Story of Metro". It is out of print, but some libraries have it.
Wow that's gotta be old! The last time the Red Line terminated at Rhode Island Avenue was 1978.
Wayne
i couldn't believe it! with my own two eyes, i seen a few teens (probably cutting school) trying to vandalize an Astoria-bound N train this morning at Queens borrow plaza. they all got their markers readay to do some graffiti on the doors as they close. i guess the conducter was trying to fight them off with opening and closing the doors repeatedly, but that wasn't the case. another one of them hood rats held up the train in another car and did graffiti in another car. it was horrible! not to offend our young subtalkers but, these kids who have no direction are the reason why the subway along the 7 and N lines are filled up with graffiti. i wish there was a cop at the station so i could laugh at them on their way to the precinct. but one question always lingers, what do these vandals get out of destroying government property? why do they still do it when it won't be there later?
Let me tell you the other side of a similar story.
A few weeks ago, I was riding a southbound D train with several of my cleaners. Right in front of me a 'student' began writing on the glass in black magic marker. My cleaners looked at me, wondering what I would do. I could have called for police via radio but instead chose to confront the miscreant.
I identified myself & flashed my badge. I then took the magic marker and his school pass to get hias ID. Fortunately, the incident ended without a physical confrontation. Several days later his friends, male and female, began acting in arowdy manner on the train. It went on for several weeks, each day getting louder and more obnoxious. I finally had enough. I contacted the TA community relations department who contacted the school and the police. On March 1, the Pastor of the school marched every student who traveled by subway, into the Bedford Park subway station. He asked that I pick out the mis-behaving students which I did. He then ripped into them publically and loudly. After that he asked the 2 police officers (one in uniform and one plain clothes) to explain what could happen the next time they misbehaved on my train.
To make a long story very short, Roberto appologized and has been a model commuter ever since. He and his fellow classmates have an open invitation to tour our facility and I've been asked to speak at the school on 'Career Day'. I'm not saying that every delinquent can be turned around by early intervention but it seems to have worked in this case.
[interesting story of "reforming" youthful vandals]
I'm glad things seemed to turn out well, but I (reluctantly) have to point out one thing. It's apparent from your account that the kids in question attended a religious (probably Catholic) school. That indicates that they probably were innately more responsible and had better home lives than typical public school students - not to mention the fact that they probably had notably higher I.Q. scores. Their rowdiness and vandalism therefore might have been a result of youthful boisterous behavoir, as opposed to their being hardened criminal types as you'd be much more likely to find in a public school.
I somehow doubt that public school students would have reformed so well under similar circumstances.
And try to picture a public school principal bothering to do what the head of this school did -- not to mention the public school parents' reactions when they learned that their children had been taken illegally and without the parents' knowledge to appear in a police line up.
BTW: don't Protestants run any religious schools? (Jews do but we don't have "pastors.")
Down South, yes, but the majority of those are designed to perpetuate segregation rather than for any real religious purpose. (Not all of them - Raleigh has Episcopalian elementary (St. Timothy's) and high (Hale) schools that are truly religious in intent, and multicultural in enrollment - but they are the exception to the general rule.) Most of the so-called "Christian" schools in North Carolina, at least, offer a decidedly inferior education than the public schools do. Fortunately, they have declined dramatically in number and enrollment levels in the past fifteen years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[BTW: don't Protestants run any religious schools? (Jews do but we don't have "pastors.")]
Anon-e-mouse already has answered that, but I should point out that Catholicism was uniquely suited toward running schools because of its religious-orders system. In other words, until relatively recent times the Catholic church had an ample supply of inexpensive labor to run schools, namely the nuns and, to a lesser extent, brothers. Being celebate and having taken vows of poverty, they weren't paid much. Starting in about the late 1950's to early 1960's, their numbers began to diminish, at rates which increased as time went on. Catholic schools increasingly had to turn to outsiders ("lay" teachers) to fill their teaching ranks. And lay teachers had to be paid considerably more than nuns, although in most cases their salaries were notably lower than public school teachers. While not too many Catholic schools actually have had to close, you certainly aren't going to see many new ones opening.
I went to a Quaker school. I guess they are protestants.
like scratching up windows ??
"Their rowdiness and vandalism therefore might have been a result of youthful boisterous behavoir, as opposed to their being hardened criminal types as you'd be much more likely to find in a public school. I somehow doubt that public school students would have reformed so well under similar circumstances."
But isn't that a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy? The private school kid and the public school kid (separately) graffiti trains and are caught. The private school kid's action is perceieved as youthful indiscretion and the authorities decide to go light on a "reformable" youth. The public school kid's action are seen as symptoms of deeper criminality, and the authorities decide to impose harsher penalties in order to make an example of him; he's an "unreformable" youth anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I believe in being tough on crime; I'm a strong believer in the death penalty, longer imprisonment, and less parole. But there's been too much demonization of teenagers in the media and popular perception in recent years. Despite the drop in youth crime of the last decade or so (contrary to the late-1980's "superpredator" predictions), isolated incidents like Columbine -- and a dozen school shootings in a year in a nation of a quarter-billion citizens are STILL isolated incidents -- have led to a (mis)perception that "the kids are out of control."
The response has been two-fold:
1) Zero-tolerance policies in the schools, that treat nail clippers the same as switchblades, Midol the same as cocaine, and clearly harmless verbal jokes as serious death threats. Very equitable, in that a rule is applied consistently in all cases, but also very unfair. Not every kid who writes a story in Lit class about a character killing people, or who draws a picture of same, actually wants to kill anyone. But instead of getting discreet counseling within the school environment (that is, while still attending classes normally), the immediate response is suspension, most often followed by the summoning of the police. Hell, I went to Catholic grade and high school, and all sorts of students made idle fantasy talk about killing unpopular teachers. I would imagine that there have been students imagining their teacher dead as long as there has been formal education! Students SHOULD be punished for violating school rules, even picayune ones like sharing legal non-prescription meds and carrying nail clippers. But the PENALTY that is imposed for the violation should be measured to the severity of the offense. Policies that impose immediate suspension in all cases regardless of severity do not adhere to this most basic rule of justice.
2) The criminalization of all sorts of juvenile offenses that have previously been universally handled in the juvenile justice system. I have no problem with cases being sent to the adult criminal courts when the juvenile court judge concludes that the tools available to him or her will not suffice and that the offender would not benefit from such tools. I agree that there are "hardened" youth offenders beyond the help of juvenile court, fit only for punishment. But the state legislatures have been robbing the judges of their power to decide cases by declaring entire classes of offenses as automatically and without exception removed from juvenile court jurisdiction and sent to criminal court, with the defendant treated as an adult. And I don't mean stuff like murder and rape.
A kid caught with a gun on school property in an inner-city school may not automatically be a "hardened" gang-banger beyond help. Ditto with a kid who falls in with the wrong crowd and assists in an armed holdup of a store. I am ***NOT*** advocating that these kid's actions should not have consequences, or that they should be exonerated because they had the proverbial bad childhood. But the existence of the juvenile justice system is society's recognition that youthful indiscretions DO occur and that SOME children who commit crimes may be salvageable with proper intervention. Who fits into that category and who is hardened and beyond help is more related to how they were brought up and who they associate with than to the offense they committed. What the legislatures have done is declare that all youths who commit a particular offense are ipso facto unsalvageable; no need for a petty thing like fact-finding or examination of individual offenders by judges or shrinks.
Sorry, but this topic is a pet peeve of mine. Harsh penalties automatically applied to children in a unthinking manner, without any discretion or deliberation, ***don't*** result in law-abiding and respectable citizens, much as some people would like to believe it. Punishment must be swift and sure, but it must also be FAIR, or the bitterness of obvious and unremedied injustice will turn otherwise-decent kids into exactly what we're trying NOT to create.
[interesting post]
I'm also a very strong law-and-order type, and I must say that I agree with most of what you said. Young people today have indeed been demonized, and school punishments have become way too inflexible. Yet I'm rather hard-pressed to find much sympathy for subway vandals. Scratching windows or doing other sorts of damage is not the kind of crime (unlike, for example, shoplifting or auto theft) that produces monetary gain. It's simply an expression of contempt for other riders, indeed for society in general, an expression that's done in the most primitive manner. I find that worse in many respects than a gain-producing crime.
The next time you see this, call 1-877-NYCT-555 and give them the info.
i couldn't believe it! with my own two eyes, i seen a few teens (probably cutting school) trying to vandalize an Astoria-bound N train this morning at Queens borrow plaza. they all got their markers readay to do some graffiti on the doors as they close.
You know how male cats (and other animals) urinate to mark their territory? The graffiti kidz are doing the same thing--marking their territory with spray paint and permanent marker rather than urine.
You know how we stop male cats from marking their territory? The same thing will work with the graffiti kidz.
Punishment should be cruel and unusual: it works better.
CH.
Too drastic. Just make them wear big scarlet Gs on their clothes and ban them for life from all MTA facilities.
The metrocard turnstiles are not easy for left-handers to use. Why was no thought given to that and are there any remedies in the forseeable future?
Because the majority of people are right-handed, and no.
-Hank
On the contrary, it's all a sinister plot. It's actually easier to do a left-handed backhand swipe than to do a righ-handed forehand swipe.
Rightees and wrongees
but the do have lefty hammers and screwdriveres
(humour)
avid
There was plenty of thought given to it. They just don't want us lefties on the trains. I've overcome this heinous plot by walking through the turnstiles backward. My leftie swipe is oh-so-smooth, and others are taking notice.
Everybody's following my lead. Check out the turnstiles at Penn Station some morning -- at least 20% of the entrants are walking through backward. Since only about 15% of the population is leftie, it's clear I'm even getting sympathy support from some righties and ambi-s. (You are aware that ambi-s are just repressed lefties, aren't you)
I've found that civil disobedience is the best way to fight the rightie power. Stand on the left on escalators. Walk on the left on stairways and platforms.
Come to the next meeting of the Leftie Railfans. Tonight at 6:30, on the lower-level platform at 7th Avenue Manhattan. I believe that's the only "leftie-friendly" platform in the system.
chech your roots, you may be from the U.K., Hong Kong, Ireland, Japan
Austrilia, New Zealand or Singapor
avid
chech your roots, you may be from the U.K., Hong Kong, Ireland, Japan Austrilia, New Zealand or Singapor
Shouldn't that be Czech your roots?
Heh..
CH -- Incorrigible punster. Do not encourage.
That's another thing that always bewildered me - ever notice how a LOT of escalators in subway stations, the left one is the up one? I know Grand Central on the 7 is (or was) like this, and I know there's a few others that slip my mind now....
I'm not sure if it's lefty or British resistance that's doing it.
BTW - I believe some commutter RR in Chicago still has left hand running.
One other evil escalator thing I read was that some kids once got the keys for Otis ones (they all use the same key..), and went to a local shopping mall and set all the escalators so that they all went to the ground floor. Thus, those shopping on the upper levels / basement could exit, but shoppers entering the store wishing to go upstairs were out of luck.
Oh yeah, you do *not* want to be one those things when someone hits the emergency stop.
Does the T/A still have those "enter to start" ones?
As for the lefty thing, when the up on breaks, it makes sense to reverse the down one, because it's easier to walk down. Then when they fix it, they just send it down rather than reversing the other one, I've seen it done a million times at school, it takes a few days to rectify.
And I've been on many an escalator (also at school) that stops for whatever reason (not because someone hits the button, they just have crappy escalators). It's not as jarring as you make it out to be.
As for the enter to start, the TA still has those, I've just never seen it in use, the escalator just stays on.
Oh, and there might be another reason for the wrong escalator direction. When both escalators are sent up (in most cases, never both down) during the rush, and they have to set it back for the next one, perhaps the wrong one empties out first and they just decide to reverse that and not bother waiting for everyone to finish climbing the other one.
Escalators at school? Boy have times changed!!!
And then they complain that the youth of America are flabby and overweight. No need to spend money of sports programs; just make them climb the stairs.
I'm not going to climb between the second floor and the ninth floor!
I don't blame you. That's insane. Certainly wouldn't do it if you lived in an apartment building.
-Hank
Yes. Point taken. I forgot how big NYC high schools are. Where I grew up they were all two or three floors.
Speaking as a "leftie". When has any thought ever been given to US? We always have to adapt to their world. But, the one in ten rules apply.
Peace,
Andee
This lefty has no problem swiping with his right hand. I can't write with my right hand, I can't cut with my right hand (nor can I cut with standard scissors in either hand), but I have no problem aiming for a slot with my right hand. Am I atypical?
>>>I can't write with my right hand, I can't cut with my
right hand (nor can I cut with standard scissors in either hand), but I have no problem aiming for a slot
with my right hand. Am I atypical? <<<
I swipe with my right hand, bowl with my left, bat left-handed, throw with my right, and eat with both.
I'm not ambidextrous, just f!@#ed up...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I write left, throw left, bat right, shoot right, am 95% ambilateral. I also don't have any trouble with the Baltimore subways ticket reading slot. Slot is on right. (Stick ticket/pass in slot, turnstyle grabs it, runs it through the reader, returns ticket/pass to user. This is entry. For exit, same procedure, except turnstyle keeps ticket, returns pass.
The scissor manufacturers solved the right/left problem by making almost all scissors with equal handles and blades ground to cut either was. Old style scissors were built for handedness. For a lefthander to use a standard scissor without hurting the hand was to turn it upside down - where it promptly refused to cut.
On streetcars the controller is operated by the left hand and the brake by the right. This was a leftover from horse days, where the driver held the reins in the left and handled the brake with the right. On one series of subway cars (BMT Standard) wasn't the controller and brake reversed? Why?
The TA did take left-handed persons into account when they designed the current turnstile. It was demonstrated that with some practice, a left handed person can swipe their card while standing with their back to the entrance and then pass backwards through the turnstile.
...while reading a Hebrew advertisement through "rear-view mirror"
glasses and reciting, in descending order, the list of prime
numbers less than 1024.
Next I guess train operators will be asking for the controller handle to be placed on the left and brake handle on the right. (That's the way the 1924 MBTA Blue Line cars are configured. Maybe the designer was a lefty?)
Next I guess train operators will be asking for the controller handle to be placed on the left and brake handle on
the right. (That's the way the 1924 MBTA Blue Line cars are configured. Maybe the designer was a lefty?)
Huh Todd? Controller on left, brake on right. That's the way it
was on most streetcars and rapid transit. Notable exception: BRT/BMT
Sorry Jeff, my error. I meant that the Boston 1924 Blue Line trains were brake left, controller right.
Were they put back to "normal" when rebuilt with SMEE controls
in the 1950s?
Nope, the brake handle is on the left. Release is at the 9:00 position; full apply at 7:00, emergency at 6:00, and handle off at 5:00.
The controller is 3-point automatic (switching, series, parallel); the handle small. Power off is 3:00 o'clock and parallel at 6:00.
Next time I'm at Seashore I'll hop in an snap a pix.
I just do a backhand swipe when I go through. You just have to make sure you get the card down low enough to register.
Now those right-handed card insertion slots on the D.C. Metro -- those things are a royal pain in the butt for left-handers.
Maybe Congress will pass a bill declaring lefties eligible under ADA, and we can get a left-handed card slot installed at each station, the way they have that one lefthanded folding desk at the end of each aisle in college lecture halls.
I could never learn to use them. I was so used to writing with my elbow hanging in the air, I had to use a "right-handed" desk.
Is it my imagination, or are the posters on SubTalk disproportionately left handed?
You get that from this thread because of the many left handers who are coming forward.
Oops! That message was intended as a response to KMA!
[The TA did take left-handed persons into account when they designed the current turnstile. It was demonstrated that with some practice, a left handed person can swipe their card while standing with their back to the entrance and then pass backwards through the turnstile.]
But why bother? Swiping a card doesn't take a great deal of manual dexterity. "Handedness" is relevant when it comes to activities requiring reasonably fine motor skills, such as writing. Card swiping is unlikely to matter.
Try that attitude with toilet paper! Don't just sit there laughing ,
go try it.
(humour)
avid
You don't think that that requires fine motor skills?
Maybe some of us lefties could learn to (gasp!) adapt.
I, for one, am left-handed with pen and spoon, and right-handed with keyboards and, yes, MetroCard swiping.
It seems easiest to just hold out the card in my right hand while walking up to the turnstile, and let the card slide through as I keep walking. Works 9 times out of 10.
In for a penny in for a pound.
How mobbed are the platforms on S.I.
Which is the most crowded Station there?
How can this pot be Sweetened?
I beseech all experts out there to stand and deliver.
Lets Go!
Whats the dwell time on LIRR at Copaigue?
Can S.I. live with what ever it is?
A BOLD and Dangerous A V I D
Replace the entire fleet of S.I. with the cream of the crop of LIRR M-1. Recoup the R/44
2. Viola , you just solved the 63rd st. tunnel car shortfall.
3. Bolt the doors and windows , here come the S.I. Trotters looking for there 44's back.
avid
The only way the SIR will convert to M1 cars would be if they re-instituted fare collection. Otherwise, the cars would be destroyed by vandalism. There's already a call for it, as vandalism and crime on the trains have doubled since the fare was eliminated. Most passengers interviewed are of the opinion that free isn't worth it if this is what they have to live with.
-Hank
04/07/2000
BAD IDEA!
The LIRR M-1's are beat to hell!
SIRwy would do better with new equipment from scratch.
Bill Newkirk
GOH them again. Put in hard seats, maybe digital signs (never mind, only 2 destinations). Get double the required amount for the line and use the extra cars for replacement parts. The M-1s wouldn't be there for long, just until the 143s get in (in 2-7 years). Then get rid of the M-1s, return the R-44s (or something else in their place). It'd be nice to have a railfan window on SIR from an M-1.
SIR has more than 2 destinations (there are rush hour short-turns, express service, etc.), but GOHing the M-1s is a pretty good idea. The bodies were built by Budd, and as I understand it have stainless steel framing, so they ought to last "forever." The problem with the cars isn't with the bodies (unless I'm sadly mistaken--and I've never heard ANYTHING bad about the condition of the carbodies), it's with the equipment, and the equipment can be upgraded/replaced. In fact, some of the M-1s were already overhauled and will not be replaced under the current M-7 procurement.
David
Would this give them enough equipment to restore service to South Beach?
But the ROW is gone, so what's the point?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Only if the M1s ar converted to run on rubber tires. The tracks are completely gone, as in a majority of the ROW. BTW, similar story on the North Shore. The ROW is there, but not intact, and in no condition for service at all.
-Hank
What if the SIR was converted to Light Rail and South Beach was made street running?
Great idea. Now, all we have to do is find someone willing to put the amusments back in at South Beach (so that there will be an attraction to promote ridership) and willing to pay for reinstalling the line.
04/09/2000
What if the SIR was converted to Light Rail and South Beach was made street running?
Pigs,
Just two problems:
1) The old South Beach ROW ran through where the Verrazano Bridge toll plaza is today.
2) The old ROW is built on in places and in residental neighborhoods. Beware the NIMBY's !
Bill Newkirk
You mean beware of NIMLR!
-Hank :)
(Not In My Living Room)
That's why the street running!
It sounds like a good idea. If the M-1s can handle the curve going into and out of St. George, they should do it.
I presume "vandalism" refers mainly to the possibility of people slashing the seats with knives. The seats are made of molded foam rubber, right? So, unlike the red vinyl seats that were once used on the subways (or even the more common fake straw seats), cutting the seat covers will not allow the padding to be readily removed, right? If some seats do get slashed, just cover the cut with some duct tape and put the cars back on the road. Don't do any extensive repairs, that would only reward the vandals. I doubt it would be much of a problem for long.
As for the question of whether two doors per car can handle the crowds (brought up in another thread that touched on this subject): if commuter trains into Penn Station and GCT can discharge all their passengers through the same two doors, why shouldn't SIR trains into St. George be able to do likewise? There would hardly be a problem at any other station, would there?
Wouldn't be too much of an issue.
-Hank
NJT uses duct tape and sometimes stitching when someone slashes seats on Comet IIs, but never on anything else.
[NJT uses duct tape and sometimes stitching when someone slashes seats on Comet IIs, but never on anything else.]
This seat-slashing business was a real problem in the days of cotton and rattan, but I wonder if it has to be a real problem today. Use cheap, easily removeable cushions made of foam with a vinyl wrapping. Buy a cushion covering machine. When a cushion is slashed or dirty, swap it out and stick it into the cushion covering machine. Voila! And while you're at it, set up some stakeouts and sentence any kids caught slashing seats to seat replacement duty--se how they like losing their evenings and weekends for a year.
04/08/2000
Yes, the LIRR M-1's are really beat to hell!! Don't let that shiny stainless steel body fool you, there's more than meets the eye. I have friends in the LIRR who say the M-1's are in their worse shape in years. In fact, the LIRR stopped overhauling the cars a few years ago. If anything, repairs are made when the cars bug out. The overhauls of years ago would insure better reliability, but no more.
I don't see why there is much call for spending taxpayer money to overhaul these cars that the LIRR doesn't want to overhaul, but to replace outright. I don't know when SIRwy will need a new fleet, but a friend of mine who is a superintendant there says the R-44's (MUE-2's) are doing fine since their last overhaul. Are any of us hearing any complaints about the SIRwy fleet? Not me.
The point here is that before you know it, the R-143's will be here. The new CBTC signal system on the (L) should be in place when the 143's arrive and the southside Manhattan Bridge tracks will reopen as well as the 63rd St. connector. This will all happen at the same time, it is all planned!
As a railfan it's nice to dream and fantasize a bit, but in all reality, recycling old redbirds with with body skirts and rehabbing old commuter cars its' own railroad wants to unload is not facing up to the real world.
The real world is that the every taxpayer dollar spent for capital projects and equipment replacement is scrutinized very closely. Money is closely budgeted for these items and that doesn't include rehabbing old M-1's for a couple of years service and Redbirds with body skirts for the same. Take a look at the GOHing of the R-32's thru 42's back in the late 80's. It's been twelve some odd years since the were shipped off to M&K etc. They're still running and have a very good MDBF rate too. The money spent on them was for an extended period of service until their replacements can be secured. It was all planned back in the 80's, everything we see today with new technology (R-142,143's, CBTC, AC traction motors etc). I don't think it is in the best interest in the MTA to waste money on rolling stock that has out lived it's life in comparison to newer equipment that will be more efficient both operationally and maintenance wise.
To shorten this long rant................I do not agree!
Bill Newkirk
But are the R-143s going to come in the same time as the 63rd St. connector will be completed? From what I've heard the connection is going to come in about the same time the bulk of the R-142s arrive, not the R-143s, which is what this thread is mainly about -- the fact that the B Division will have the ability to increase capacity from Queens to midtown Manhattan without having the rolling stock to do so for a few years down the line.
That reminds me: I've been wondering how you can use an AC motor when the power supply is 600VDC.
There are semiconductor inverters on board that convert the DC to 3-phase AC. Moreover motor characteristics can be changed by adjusting the frequency, phase and amplitutde of the AC drive.
And that eliminates brushes, commutators, field windings, resistances, assorted mechanical contactors,(all associalted with the DC series wound motor) and makes regen braking a breeze.
Baltimore's been running AC motored LRV's since 1992, and that's been the least trouble prone component. The cars themselves have a fleet availabilty record approaching 95 per cent.
AC traction ain't rocket science any more.
And that eliminates brushes, commutators, field windings, resistances, assorted mechanical contactors,(all associalted with the DC series wound motor) and makes regen braking a breeze.
Semiconductor control for DC motors has been around for 35 years. The transit industry and NYCT just chose to ignore it. The elevator industry is the largest consumer of electric motors of the size required for mass transit. They started using chopper speed control in the 1970's. They started switching to AC motors in the mid 1980's.
However, even the DC semiconductor control still required series wound motors (there's those commutators and fields and the resistance grids.
Modern AC traction dispenses with all that.
As to the NYCT, it is well known that it is one of of the most conservative properties for mechanicals. The R142/143 are the first large car purchase that does not have outside framed trucks. The inside framed truck has been a staple in the rail transit industry for at least 40 years. The only rail transit property that eschewed the modern truck designs was the New York City Transit Authority. That doesn't make them bad, just very conservative.
The last 4 R-32 trucks were odd balls as far as the standardization of the fleet. That's the Pioneer III trucks. On top of that the R-46 had Rockwell trucks, which were later replaced with the NYCTA-GSI standard trucks
You can't blame the TA for being conservative, look at their past experience with new trucks. (You say your basement walls are cracking, and you live near the Sea Beach line.....)
Conservative, yes in 1970, when inside frame truck technology was no longer a trial object, but in everyday use. Every rail rapid transit operator was using them, with very few problems. Not the TA. They became the dinosaurs of rapid transit. Who else is still using nose suspended axle hung traction motors? Nobody else. Right angle and hypoid gearing was intorduced in 1936! And inside frame trucks were not "new" when the TA had problems with the Rockwell trucks.
It's conservative transit inertia on a massive scale.
04/10/2000
Let's say that the TA converted the entire subway fleet over night to AC traction equipment (Don't laugh, just a question).
Barring the use of air conditioners, would the NYC subway system be cooler, the same, or hotter than traditional DC propulsion and motors?
Bill Newkirk
Probably cooler, as AC traction dispenses with resistance grids and the associated heat. And the use of regeration in braking reduces heat from brake shoes.
This issue came up a month or two ago in a thread about the R142 proulsion system. The heat generated by the propulsion systems would be less, but the major source of heat is the HVAC, not the propulsion.
Correct. We went into an extensive calculation of this.
The new tech trains will regen, dumping the kinetic energy
back into the third rail rather than wasting it as heat. However,
there are many conditions which can prevent this, and the cars
carry conventional grid resistance so they can fallback on dissipative
dynamic braking.
I read in the newspaper that it is braking that causes the bulk of the heat.
That just goes to show that you can't always believe everything you read.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So then why should I believe you? After all, I'm only reading this.
Wrong. The major source of heat is the customers. While the A/C mechanism may (actually does) originate some heat due to the friction of its moving parts and the warming associated with current moving through wires, most of the heat that it moves from inside the car originated either in the environment outside the car or as body heat.
The A/C's used in subway cars are refrigerators not heat pumps. Heat is generated in the compression cycle and vented to the outside of the car. Heat is absorbed in the expansion cycle from the inside of the car.
The first and second laws of theremodynamics combine to ensure that more energy must be expended in the compression cycle than is absorbed in the expansion cycle. Generally a lot more for air conditioners. The frictional and ohmic heat sources are relatively minor.
And furthermore let us remember the distinction between heat
(thermal energy) and temperature, as well as thermal resistance.
The heat energy transfered into air at the condenser coils
directly raises the air temperature to perhaps 150F. The
condenser/air interface has very low thermal resistance because
the air is forced to flow over an extruded surface area in
the condenser fins. Although the total heat energy rate (power)
of dynamic braking may actually be higher, the grid resistors
do not lose heat to the air as readily.
Moreover, heating of the tunnels is not the real issue. Heating
of the stations is what affects passenger discomfort. When trains
dwell in the stations the heat from the HVAC is being dumped
under the platform. When the train leaves, all that hot air rises and
gets trapped by the station roof. At the same time, very little
heat is being transfered at the grid resistors as there is no
airflor over them when the train is in the station (the MCM control
packages, which used forced-air cooling, are all retired)
I've always thought the reason for NYC's subway's being as hot as they are is the presence of a large network of steam pipes just above the ceilings of most of the stations and tunnels. In most other subways I've ridden, particularly Chicago's, the stations and tunnels are actually a bit cooler during the summer months than the surface.
Or am I wrong about this?
-- David
Chicago, IL
The ground is a great heat resevoir. The stations dissipate their heat through thermal conduction with their surroundings - the ground.
The stations are cooler than the surface at the beginning of summer. However from August onwards, the ground temperature rises to prevent much heat dissipation, or reverse its direction. From then on, the stations are are hotter than the surface, which is air temperature.
I think it has to do with the sheer volume of trains -- and people -- throwing heat into the subway. At Prospect Park on the F, the station is indeed cool during the summer. It is at major Manhattan stations, with many times more trains pulling through, that the heat builds up. My typical ride home on the last day of a heat wave features sweltering heat at Chambers Street, sweltering heat at Jay Street, and cool temperatures at my home station.
[I've always thought the reason for NYC's subway's being as hot as they are is the presence of a large network of steam pipes just above the ceilings of most of the stations and tunnels. In most other subways I've ridden, particularly Chicago's, the stations and tunnels are actually a bit cooler during the summer months than the surface.
Or am I wrong about this?]
Two factors combine to make NYC's stations hot in the summer--air condtioning and bad ventilation. The original, 4 car IRT was cooler than outside for most of the year. It got hotter when the line was extended, apparently because ventilation no longer worked properly.
But the real killer was the addition of air conditioning; after the AC was installed, the busy stations went from hot to intolerable.
The flip side of this is that the capital plans are too tight, too bureancratic, and too inflexible to account for every contingency. Everybody likes shiny new equipment and master plans, but when demand goes up and the system runs short on cars, people get stuck with the result. To me the question should not be *should* the MTA do something to alleviate short term conditions, but *what* should the MTA do to alleviate short term conditions. Welding gap fillers on the old redbirds could be done for a penny and a song. Sure, it wouldn't be pretty, but if it would relieve overcrowding for the next couple of years I'm all for it, and lawyers and plans and 50-year tunnel construction projects be damned.
The BMT would have done it. The TA won't.
[The BMT would have done it. The TA won't.]
I think any private company would.
04/09/2000
Let me address the suggestion of installing body skirts on the Redbirds to fill in those gaps. It was done on some Low-v's for the Culver Shuttle back in the late 50's. But that was a dinky shuttle line with 4 stations.
Now retrofit Redbirds with those skirts and what line will you run them on? Not the Franklin Shuttle, you'll have your extra equipment you asked for, but the bodies are smaller yet making it a bit cramped inside withn those standees.
What's done is done, and scrapping those perfectly good yet R-30's was a blunder. Hopefully the TA will learn from their mistake by mothballing the best Redbirds......JUST IN CASE !! Maybe the TA could have acquired those old Red Line (Boston) or retired TTC (Toronto) subway cars for an emergency fleet. Now that would have been interesting!
Bill Newkirk
[et me address the suggestion of installing body skirts on the Redbirds to fill in those gaps. It was done on some Low-v's for the Culver Shuttle back in the late 50's. But that was a dinky shuttle line with 4 stations.
Now retrofit Redbirds with those skirts and what line will you run them on? Not the Franklin Shuttle, you'll have your extra equipment you asked for, but the bodies are smaller yet making it a bit cramped inside withn those standees.
What's done is done, and scrapping those perfectly good yet R-30's was a blunder. Hopefully the TA will learn from their mistake by mothballing the best Redbirds......JUST IN CASE !! Maybe the TA could have acquired those old Red Line (Boston) or retired TTC (Toronto) subway cars for an emergency fleet. Now that would have been interesting!
]
There was talk here that the MTA was thinking of mothballing some redbirds as a backup. The astounding thing to me is that they don't routinely mothball the last generation of cars for contingency use--take them off somewhere into the country and leave them somewhere.
Using cars from Boston and Toronto would never have worked. The old Boston MBTA cars were 2" too wide, and the Toronto TTC cars ran on a wider guage. Also, neither cars had tripcocks.
04/10/2000
{Using cars from Boston and Toronto would never have worked. The old Boston MBTA cars were 2" too wide, and the Toronto TTC cars ran on a wider guage. Also, neither cars had tripcocks}
I believe those Boston (Red Line) cars were of BMT/IND dimensions. I responded to others ideas of Redbirds (IRT) with body skirts for use on BMT/IND lines to alleviate a car shortage.
As far as tripcocks are concerned, the ex-SIRT cars on the BMT never had them until they were added in 1955 for BMT service.
Bill Newkirk
Tripcocks are a relatively easy install. SIRT cars don't have them, but the former JFK express R46 that served in 1990-91 had them for a few days; they were later removed.
-Hank
The SIR doesn't really need them. They have large headways except for times during rush hour. The roadway is pretty straight with a long sight distance. If they install signals let it be cab signals.
Well sports fans out there in TVland here are the results.
Main Idea, Replace S.I. R. T. fleet with , now pay careful attention, THE CREAM OF THE CROP, of M-1s.
This was to free up as many as possible cars to make up for the short fall expected when the 63rd St Tunnel goes into service.
The M-1s meet FRA requirements and the SIRT-R44 meet 63rd St measurements.
Would Redbirds make for a better short term replacement? What woul it cost to bring the Redbirds to FRA Standards?
I would also advocate the use of M-1s for the Shuttle service on the Rockaway Park branch during NON rush hour and NON beach season, again to free up R44s for the car shortfall. The riding public deserve some comfort. If this can be achieved by moving around the furniture, lets do it.
As far as vandalism goes , its been along time since I've been to S.I. How is service Free ? Are there no Metro card readers? Could someone be kind enough to explain the fare practice on S.I.
Thanks
avid
04/10/2000
Avid reader,
To begin with, the LIRR won't be giving up any M-1's, cream of the crop or otherwise until the new M-7's arrive, which should be around the time the R-143's do. The cream of the crop M-1's you described I have been told will be overhauled along with the M-3's. Perhaps to mirror the M-7's and conversion to AC traction motors etc.
The not to be rebuilt M-1's may not be scrapped even after the M-7's arrive because the cream of the crops will be withdrawn from service for rebuilding. There is a car shortage now and commuters who pay big bucks for monthly tickets complain of standing due to short trains.
As far as seeing any M-1's on SIRwy or the Rockaway Shuttle, don't hold your breath! That will never happen, not because I don't want to see them on TA property but the TA won't want them on their property.
Also, The R-143's will arrive for the (L) and (M) lines a couple of years from now. Remember, the R-143's will supplement the roster, they won't replace anything. The replacements of the R-38,40S,40M,42 and unrebuilt R-32's (the ones that aren't due for the upcoming overhaul) will be in the future when the R-143's are all in and running.
Bill Newkirk
Tnx Bill, I thought perhaps a little juggeling , some help with smoke and mirrors would see the Extended Q line or what ever the 63rd tunnel service is to be, would ease the Ta short fall.
The topic sure generated a nice responce though!
avid
[Would Redbirds make for a better short term replacement? What woul it cost to bring the Redbirds to FRA Standards?
]
That's a good idea!
Who will be comming to Mark W's trip this Sunday?
It will about the SIR North Shore Line. We will walk the viaduct where the abandoned stations are and the open cut.
Hopefully we will be able to walk through the Arlington Yard and down the West shore branch.
Now, I don't think we could do this but it would be great if we could walk over the AK drawbridge to NJ.
Its all in the "Upcomming Events" section.
> Now, I don't think we could do this but it would be great if we
> could walk over the AK drawbridge to NJ.
Not unless you want to get wet... the bridge is kept in the raised position.
-Dave
You mean they wouldn't lower it for a bunch of pedestrians?
There is more water traffic then railroad (ie NONE) traffic so the bridge is in the raised positon 24/7. There is no operator present so no one to lower it for ya. Kinda like the bridges over the harlem river, call 24hrs in advance for them to open except this is in reverse.
Weren't one of those bridges opened on the night of July 13, 1977 at just the "right" time?
Did something unusual happen then?
Well, if I'm right about the opening, there would have been no electricity to lower it.
Kinda like the bridges over the harlem river, call 24hrs in advance for them to open...
Same with bridge S. of Broad Channel A S
As long as the weather cooperates I will be there.
-- David
Can't walk the West Shore, it cuts through private property (GATX)
-Hank
due to switch work at Jay Street these changes will be in effect from 1201am till 4pm on Sunday 4/9/2000.
A:Local in Brooklyn. Northbound runs via F to West 4th and then local to 59th. Southbound runs normal to Chambers and then run wrong to Jay Street via the Northbound (207 bound) track.
B: Local Stilwell to 168
B Shuttle: 57/7th*the BMT N/R station) to Queensbridge
C: Suspended
D: Southbound runs local from 47-50 to West 4th from 1201am till 530 AM
E: Local in Queens-both ways
F: Southbound- runs via G line. Northbound Normal. ALSO: from 530am to 4pm additional F trains runs from 179 to Delancey.
Single track shuyttle from 1201am till 530 am from Broadway/Lafayette to Delancey.
G: Normal
R: shuttle only from 95/Bay Ridge to 36/Brooklyn.
Shuttle Bus 1: 7th ave F line to 9th street and 4th Ave F/R.
Shuttle Bus 2: Southbound only: Delancey to east Broadway.(Norhtbound bus runs light).
How do I get to my station?
Manhattan F Stops-- use E to 7th ave for D.
Brooklyn F: E to West 4th for A. York -- Northbound A at Jay Street.
Second Ave, Delancey- D to Broadway Lafayyete and Shuttle train.
East Broadway- Change at Delancey for Shuttle bus.
C customers-- use A or B.
R Customers-- use E or N.
**This post is based on official Station Department Bulletin.
OY VEY! Let's hope they're not doing this on April 15th!
Wayne
Ahh, what a wonderful birthday present for Mr. R16.
This morning I was on R38 A #4041 (coductors cab) We did wrong rail from Chambers to Jay. At Bway-Nassau, the motorman lost indication. It was funny because he said I dont have indication and then sarted to proceed. Passengers were confused and talking amongst themselves. One lady on the train kept saying, "Just get me the f--k to Bklyn." At Kingston, this had a girl about 7 years old selling flowers. THIS WAS 2:30am!!!!!!!!! Abuse?
3TM
"Motorman didn't have indication and then started to proceed." A number of things may of happened. He may have said that because the doors in his car were closed for a reasonable amount of time and was inquiring. Maybe the c/r didn't have it either, then some wise acre decided to let go of the doors. Maybe the c/r forgot to turn the key momentarily, or maybe the c/r gave him 2 short buzzes, m/m used the side door bypass and indication came in after the train started to move. It was Friday nite/ Sat. morning lots of nuts around. Don't forget that a train is a very complex machine and sometimes things happen.
The c/r had his indication, the m/m did not. We spent @ least 5 minutes @ Bway-Nassau. I know there is a lot of nuts around but a seven year selling flowers 2am, much less awake. They got off at Kingston when the cops came on. A man had too much to drink at 42St. The platform became hs bed for the night.............
3TM
Our first chat is Saturday at 8 PM in the chatroom at metrocard.cjb.net. It would be nice to have regularly scheduled chats in that room. We would want to meet at a time that is convienent to most. Please post the best 3 times (Eastern Time, who ever reads this in the end doesn't know your time zone) for you and maybe Pgitty can use the results to schedule more chats. I will bring the topic up Saturday night.
Thanks.
BTW, Wednesday and Saturday at 8 are good for me!
For those of you who are not in the EASTERN time zone of the US, here are the conversions.
Central: -1 Hour
Mountain: -2
Pacific: -3
I think that covers almost all the SubTalkers, those of you overseas or in Alaska , Arizonia, Indiana, and Hawaii, you will need to do the conversion for yourselves.
Why is the Special Weekend Service still included when there is only 1 line under that category (the J)? It is a waste of space.
Also, the current map STILL has the Lenox Avenue Line marked as part time. No one has bothered to change it since the Rehab ended.
Maybe they decided that the bus service is more cost efficient than the train shuttle.
ARe you sure that the train shuttle is still running?
The train shuttle's discontinuance had nothing to do with the rehab. It was replaced in 1995 (I have to check my 1994 map to make sure).
What are you talking about? I asked why they made a category for just one line on the service guide and why no one has changed the Lenox Avenue Line from part time service. Also, why is the Rockway Shuttle ommitted from the service guide? It is still a train in the NYC Subway, last time I checked.
The Lenox Line is still part time. That is why they didn't change it.
The Rockaway Shuttle is still there. Look under the A train lisitng.
I would love to know which edition of The Map you are looking at. I checked back to September 1999 and the indications for the Lenox Line and Rockaway Shuttle were the same in that edition.
As far as the single category for just one line - why not? It is not hurting anyone.
The Lenox line is full-time. The 2 runs at all times.
February 2000. The 2 runs all the time. AND, to be a full time line on the front of the older maps, the line had to run from 6AM-12AM daily (there were and still are exceptions, the 5 is marked part time between 149/GC and Bowling Green even though it meets the full time requirements on that stretch of the line).
1. Yes, the #2 is shown as Part-Time at 110th, 116th, 125th, 135th. Obviously an oversight.
2. The #3 train is still replaced by a bus overnight. It's a picked run out of Mother Hale Depot. Officially, the route is MSH (Manhattan Shuttle), but the destination signs still read "L3" from the Lenox Invert construction project.
3. The Rockaway shuttle, with blue S-circle, is mentioned in the A listing under Primary Service. It make some sort of sense, since that particular shuttle exists solely to feed the A.
4. The Special Weekend service does seem a waste withonly the J listed. Actually, the B-to-Queensbridge should appear there as well.
The bold letters are feor lines that always stop from 6A-12A.
Yeah, I was wondering why they have 2 and 3 as part time service in that area?????
3TM
I am very concerned that while we should be heading for a better future, we may be retreating to a worse one. But that aside, a little more than ten years ago the city's economy, and subway ridership, reached a peak at a lower level than today. How would you compare late 1980s conditions with today?
-- There are fewer panhandlers.
-- There is less crime.
-- In 1988-89, I frequently could not board an F train after 7:25 a.m., and frequently had to wait for a C train to squeeze in at Jay Street. Today, I can almost always board an F train at 8:15, and can almost always board an A train.
-- The 2/3 train from Brooklyn are also much less crowded than in 1988-89.
-- Out of service trains are less common than in 1988-89.
-- The overall consumer price index is up 38 percent since 1989. The subway fare is up from $1.00 to $1.50, except if you buy ten or more rides, in which case it is up 36 percent. The fare covers a higher share of costs than in 1989.
-- I can by an unlimited ride card once per month with a credit card.
Sounds better. However, the next capital plan, and the lack of significant system expansions in the past and future could make it worse in 10 years, however.
It seems odd that rush hour trains are less crowded today than they were in 1989. It's not as if there are new lines open today :-) Could it be attributable to changing employment patterns?
Absolutely. Flex time and telecommuting has had a significant impact on ridership patterns.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What train line are you riding? Rush-hour ridership and congestion is as strong, or even stronger than ever.
[Rush-hour ridership and congestion is as strong, or even stronger than ever. ]
That's only true of the Brighton Line and only between Kings Highway and DeKalb. All other lines have seen a decrease in congestion (but an increase in ridership)
The Brighton is crowded, and so are the Lex and the Queens Blvd line. But that is due to the deterioration of the Manhattan Bridge, and the lack of a Second Avenue Subway and 63rd St tunnel connection. Were it not for those infrastructure errors of the past, we'd have a pretty good system right now.
The fare is 25% less (32 with the bonus) if one takes a bus.
From previous threads, I gather that the "Pelham 1-2-3" naming convention is still in use. Two questions:
1. Is the name based on the scheduled departure time or the actual departure time?
2. What happens if two trains leave a terminal at the same time, such as might happen at Coney Island?
Thanks,
Bill
I believe that it is based on Line, Origin, and Scheduled Time of Departure. Such as...
1430 Nancy Coney
or something along the line of that.
Wouldn't Pelham 123 really have been Pelham 1323?
Yes. Since the book and movie were produced, the TA went to military time.
In general, the call letters of a train follow this format:
Departure Time, Departing Terminal, Arriving Terminal - so that the 123 Pelham - Brooklyn Bridge would have left Pelham Bay Park at 1:23 AM.
B Division trains use the following - Departure Time, Line Identifier in Military Alphabet, Departing Terminal, Arriving Terminal - resulting in a 1006 November Stillwell - Ditmars
What are all the words for the letters anyway. All I know are B - Bronco, D - Delta, R - Romeo.
I wouldn't call the time used as military time...it's actually 24 hour time...the military plans events based on a 24 hour time frame...the military uses a phonectic alphabet that police departments and NYCTA adapted and changed for their use.
A-alpha G-golf M-mike S-sierra Y-yankee
B-bravo H-hotel N-november T-tango Z-zulu
C-charlie I-india O-oscar U-uniform
D-delta J-juliet P-papa V-victor
E-echo K-kilo Q-quebec (kaybeck) W-whiskey
F-foxtrot L-lima R-romeo X-x-ray
What about shuttles, would they just say "Times Square shuttle on track one" ?
People working in Manhattan, both Manhattan residents and those commuting in from elsewhere, are about the most affluent people anywhere. Collectively, they earn about $200 billion per year at work. If they were willing to devote 1/2 of one percent of their earnings to improving the quality of their commute, such a tax would raise $1 billion per year. That's just $2 per week for those earning $20,000 per year; $10 per week for those earning $100,000 per year. As for those earning $1,000,000 per year, they can afford to make a contribution to the future.
The construction of LIRR to Grand Central access, the Second Avenue Subway, and LIRR and MetroNorth to Lower Manhattan -- if we were to stop the ripoffs and get rid of the procedural bullshit -- could probably be built for ten years at that tax rate, if the politicians didn't steal the money for something else.
The way I would do it is to create connections to have the Second Avenue Subway take the place of the BMT Broadway Line, with four tracks south from the 60th Street tunnel. Then hook up the BMT Broadway Line to MetroNorth (curving into the Central Park Subway at 63rd St from Park Avenue and down the express tracks) and the LIRR (curving off from the Penn Station tunnels down 5th Avenue into the BMT local tracks at 23rd Street, and on to Whitehall). More of the TA's capacity would be on the east side, where it is needed. LIRR riders could get on at Montauk and get off at the World Trade Center.
The future, and the quality of life, either matter of they don't/
[The way I would do it is to create connections to have the Second Avenue Subway take the place of the BMT Broadway Line]
So trains from Astoria, Forest Hills will go to 2nd Avenue? This would make it very difficult for people working in Midtown to get there from Astoria and even more overcrowd E and F.
Arti
<Then hook up the BMT Broadway Line to MetroNorth (curving into the Central Park Subway at 63rd St from Park Avenue and down the express tracks)>
You're still thinking about this? It doesn't look like you realize the value of the Broadway line - if this is done, then 6th Ave express riders would be probably taking the 7 line to get to Times Square, which is quite crowded already. And what would you do with the severed 60th Street line to Astoria? Some of these inconsistencies would disappear if you let Astoria-34th Street operation continue, but I would prefer keeping the entire Broadway line.
They could sell Liberty Island and Staten Island back to New Jersey. We'd pay them the billions it would take to build the 2nd Ave. subway.
You can take Staten Island, we'll accept $5 for it.
If you want to control Liberty Island, you better be prepared for WAR.
Let's get real.
The money from Staten Island and Liberty Island would go to pay the expenses of the consultants New York hired for the "Feasibility Study of the Sale of Staten and Liberty Islands to New Jersey."
So New York would end up with NO Staten Island, NO Liberty Island and NO 2nd Avenue Subway.
However, the concept of selling New York off piecemeal might have merit. Imagine if Manhattan were sold off in parts to New Jersey, Connecticut and Arkansas (since Arkansans seem suddenly so interested in us). We could conduct our border wars in one compact place and build the 2nd Avenue Subway with the proceeds of the spectator tickets.
Well, actually, only one person in Arkansas seems really interested in New York City (heck, Wal-Mart won't even come in, and those Arkansas people go everywhere else). But I don't think she has the money to buy any part of the city right now, unless those Chinese `businessmen' friends of her husband get very, very generous again.
Hillary won't be buying the city. She'll be selling it out to get votes elsewhere, just like all Democrat politicians.
And of course the Republicans would never do that.
Who to hate more? Well, the Republicans don't pretend they are not out to screw us. It's obvious. The Democrats pretend they are on our side. Their hypocracy is sickening.
[Who to hate more? Well, the Republicans don't pretend they are not out to screw us. It's obvious. The Democrats pretend they are on our side. Their hypocracy is sickening.]
NYC voters have no one but themselves to blame. By voting in a near-monolithic bloc for Democrats (Guiliani being the one notable exception), they've more or less guaranteed that neither party will care about their concerns. The Republicans have written off the city as hopeless, while the Democrats can take it for granted.* Note that the same end result would occur if the city always went for Republicans. If city voters were more of a swing group, they'd get more attention from both parties and everyone would benefit.
* = this is the same reason why TV networks consistently ignore older viewers ("older" meaning 50 and over in this context). It really isn't because older people are more resistant to advertising pitches, which is the conventional belief. It's instead because older people watch plenty of TV no matter what's showing. The networks don't need to court their viewership because they've already got it.
Also advertisers think older people are pretty set in what they're going to buy as far as brand loyalty goes, and targeting shows and their commercials towards them won't attract any new customers.
As far as the elections go, the best example of voters in play in New York is the deal Staten Island got from Giuliani and Pataki on the SI Ferry and the SIRT with the "one city one fare" Metrocard introduction. Would they have gotten it if Cuomo and Dinkins were still in power? Maybe, but probably not, because the borough votes Republican.
[ Would they have gotten it if Cuomo and Dinkins were still in power? Maybe, but probably not, because the borough votes Republican.]
Cuomo was opposed to fare discounts on the basis that they hurt the poor, who can't afford to buy Metrocards.
[As far as the elections go, the best example of voters in play in New York is the deal Staten Island got from Giuliani and Pataki on the SI Ferry and the SIRT with the "one city one fare" Metrocard introduction. Would they have gotten it if Cuomo and Dinkins were still in power? Maybe, but probably not, because the borough votes Republican.]
Staten Island votes mostly but not entirely Republican. If indeed it were diehard Republican, there probably would have been no ferry and SIRT deal because Pataki and Giuliani could have taken its voters for granted. Nothing like being a "swing" area to have the politicians fawning all over you.
It also didn't hurt that they periodically threaten to secede.
[NYC voters have no one but themselves to blame. By voting in a near-monolithic bloc for Democrats (Guiliani being the one notable exception), they've more or less guaranteed that neither party will care about their concerns. The Republicans have written off the city as hopeless, while the Democrats can take it for granted.* Note that the same end result would occur if the city always went for Republicans. If city voters were more of a swing group, they'd get more attention from both parties and everyone would benefit.]
I've often wondered about that. For all that NYC is a democratic stronghold, we've elected two Republican mayors in my lifetime. In both cases, they seemed powerless to bring anything to the City and ended up in conflict with the Republican governors. Doesn't do the Republicans much good with the public.
It seems to me that the Republican party let a wonderful opportunity slip through its claws here. A Republican mayor and governor could have worked together to make the state competitive again. Instead, it seems that Pataki satisifed himself with stealing more from the City while leaving the bulk of the bloat unchallenged and untouched. It's been left to Giuliani to cut where he could.
[As for those earning $1,000,000 per year, they can afford to make a contribution to the future. . . .
The construction of LIRR to Grand Central access, the Second Avenue Subway, and LIRR and MetroNorth to Lower Manhattan -- if we were to stop the ripoffs and get rid of the procedural bullshit -- could probably be built for ten years at that tax rate, if the politicians didn't steal the money for something else.
The way I would do it is to create connections to have the Second Avenue Subway take the place of the BMT Broadway Line, with four tracks south from the 60th Street tunnel. Then hook up the BMT Broadway Line to MetroNorth (curving into the Central Park Subway at 63rd St from Park Avenue and down the express tracks) and the LIRR (curving off from the Penn Station tunnels down 5th Avenue into the BMT local tracks at 23rd Street, and on to Whitehall). More of the TA's capacity would be on the east side, where it is needed. LIRR riders could get on at Montauk and get off at the World Trade Center.
The future, and the quality of life, either matter of they don't]
At a billion dollars a year for seven years (assuming the state contributes that $1 billion we'll end up paying for anyway), building a full length 2nd Avenue line is well within the City's fiscal capability. But are tax hikes are in the cards now? People have expressed a willingness in surveys to pay higher fares for a 2nd Avenue line; it seems to me that we should raise the money by charging a Manhattan automobile commutation fee--bridge tolls plus a peak period garage tax in the business areas (waived for those who have paid the bridge tolls) would take care of that--and raising the fare to $2.25 during peak periods. I agree though that the important thing at this point is just to get the line built, wherever the money comes from.
Why take LIRR trains down the Bway line when they can come in via Atlantic Avenue and the underutilized JMZ? Also, there's bandwidth for MN trains on the West Side line/A. That diversion would leave the MN tunnels and the Bway line free to handle subway riders from the Bronx and Queens. AFAI can tell, we can bring the commuter RR's to Lower Manhattan, accomdodate the airport trains, and provide ample service to all subway riders except those along 2nd Avenue for perhaps $1 billion.
(PS I got your email but haven't been able to respond since my copy of Outlook Express is screwed up--it looks like I may have to reinstall Windows 2000 to get it going again, something I'm not exactly anticipating . . .)
...... I have past experence with driving different kinds of buses in my younger days... ( example ) .......and...............
driving different type of buses for the going downhill EASTERN AIRLINES .. and driving them around while they are GOING MAD !!
picking up & droping off eastern employees from terminal to terminal etc... shuttle services and in and out of the Atlanta Airport !! ( etc )... This is similar to most transit bus operators have to do etc....
My other job was driving motorcoaches & school buses for atlanta schools and charter services !!...
To me I would vote that the BUS DRIVER has a more difficult task then a motorman or train operator
It is not an easy task however i would give a slight Edge to most bus drivers ! What do you think SUBTALK ?...!!
Definitely bus drivers. They have to deal with people, with fare collection, with traffic, etc. Motorman are sheltered inside their cab.
By the way, I drove a yellow medallion cab during my college years to support the tuition and although you might think I'm nuts I actually thought the job was fun!!!
well thats a tough job too !! the reason why i asked the question is because the bus operator makes more
decisions than even a pilot has to make . A bus driver makes more decisions than any motorman ........
i agree with you ! As far as your cab job i did a car club jypsy type operation myself !! ( illegal cab 1975 )...
First of all, let me just say that I am somewhat new to this board, so if the "Money Train" movie has been discussed before, which I'm sure it as, and these subjects already discussed, which I'm sure they have, my apologies for any redundancies.
I'm aware that the revenue collection car shown in the movie was a mockup to make it look dramatic and that the actual money trains are yellow and black.
BUT - - -
Who is actually in control of the money train? Is it anything like the setup in the movie?
Is the undercover police work anything like in the movie?
I also know that the train operation and trip-stop system is nothing like in the movie and that a rear-ending is hard to acheive with the signal system.
And why would the Command Center have a model board that looks like the back of a 1980's subway map???
The Taking of Pelham One-Two-Three - now that's a real movie. Not only a real subway movie, but a real "people's" movie. Not like today's pop-culture-fad-teen-crazed-sex-seeking-gossip-instigating-who's-sleeping-with-who-who's-naked-in-what-scene-type movies, most of which make me sick.
And that's why you'll hardly see me at Loews, Sony, or General Cinemas unless it's a military-motiffed movie, which I like (such as the upcoming Rules of Engagement).
And yes, I'm 16 years old myself and look at what I have to share my school with . . .
Anyway, forgive me for ranting, but TTOP123 is my all-time favorite movie, not just because of the subway factor, but the fact that it is a realistic, down-to-earth, movie about the common man and that the producers didn't find it nessecary to lower themselves and load it with all sorts of sexual perversions and innuendoes to make it appealing and to cajole money out of the public.
Why did I see the money train car from the movie (51050) in Coney Island Yd near the pair of R-30s under the platform of Avenue X on the F line on Tuesday, but on Friday it was gone. I thought they had gotten rid of it years ago. It couldn't be operational, one of the doors was missing.
[Why did I see the money train car from the movie (51050) in Coney Island
Yd near the pair of R-30s under the platform of Avenue X on the F line
on Tuesday, but on Friday it was gone. I thought they had gotten rid of
it years ago. It couldn't be operational, one of the doors was missing.]
I have the answer to your question: "Money Train" car 51050 was moved near track 40 for display at today's Car Equipment Rodeo over by the Coney Island Overhaul Shops.
I'm sure it'll be back on the track over by the paint shop area by next week (if not tomorrow).
I was able to snap off a few shots of the car (with a display sign siting the fact that CI yards built four identical cars the movie).
Of course RPC had their fleet of antique subway cars on display as well.
Doug aka BMTman
Yes Doug,
RPC tries it's best getting the vintage cars cleaned up and ready for display. It was great seeing you and heypaul again.
-Mark
Yes the Ta uses a work train to collect from subway stations. And the TA even has a fleet of armored cars that still come out of the old Jay Street building.
TA has a title I believe of "revenue collection agent" or somthing like that. Not a cop but a guard if you will though I've seen cops on the money train. They are all in uniform except for the operator
With OPTO (One Person Train Operation) there is no longer a conductor on the train, the motorman operates the train.
And yes the command center board looks like that it was never connected to the system but they are building a new one. The people who work in "Command" are a certian type of dispatcher title that slips the mind.
Hope that helps and does not have too many errors.
They use several 2 car yellow R-22 work trains with bars over the windows, many are stored at Concorse Yd (at least 0R/1R 720 and 721), one goes to Jamaica Yd (0R/1R 719) every morning and goes by 71/continental at around 7, +- 20 minutes. They drop the money off at a special platform somewhere in Brooklyn (Jay St?) built solely for that purpose. Check the Revenue and Rider car roster on this site for more info.
The Jay Street station on the IND has two island platforms, if you look on the West wall you'll see a roll up door. That's where the money train stops.
Mr t__:^)
A fond look at the last days of the LIRR diesels...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Diesel/diesel.html
Kevin,
Excellent Page!!!!!
However 2 corrections:I definitely remember on some (not too many) old diesel cars where the toilets had a hole and emptied on the track. You could actually see the trackbed when looking down.Unless I misunderstood what you meant, isn't there four places where there are direct connections between the subway and the LIRR? Didn't you forget Atlantic & Flatbush?
Not to mention Hunterpoint and LIC. And since when did they move Jamaica Station to Parsons/Archer. Last I looked it was at Sutfin Blvd, wasn't it.
Hunterspoint Avenue and LIC are close calls but no cigar. You're right abt Sutphin...fixed.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Not to mention Hunterpoint and LIC. And since when did they move Jamaica Station to Parsons/Archer. Last I looked it was at Sutfin Blvd, wasn't it?
/*I definitely remember on some (not too many) old diesel cars where the toilets had a hole and emptied on the track. You could actually see the trackbed when looking down.*/
This was a "feature" the old electrics (MP-54) had.
I remember once hearing a funny story involving a bathroom,a woman occupying it, an electric, the east river tunnels, and air pressure changes. I'm running late now, so I'll leave it as an excercise for the reader to figure out what happened.
Amfleet bathroom used to dump on the tracks. They had signs that said "do not flush while in stations, important safety inspections being performed under train."
Of course, evil people would flush anyway. Repeattedly. Especially if they were in the first car, and at New Haven.
Nobody's bathrooms do this anymore (much to the relief of evironmentalists and Amtrak engine change crews everywhere), thanks to the EPA.
Phew! Those filthy diesel coaches!
One of my last rides aboard them found me stuck in car #2801. The lavatory, whose door was ajar, had a large, malodorous puddle emanating from it and spreading across the car floor. The smell of it was absolutely VILE! After finding myself unable to tolerate it (I DID have a seat on this crowded car, albeit bottomless), I repaired to the open platform where I spent the remainder of my journey.
Wayne
But Wayne, after all is said and done, you ARE gonna miss those open platorms between cars!!! I do already!!!
Metro North and NJT still have them, but its not the same. That rubber thing between the cars makes it impossible to feel any kind of wind if the doors are closed. Also, the metal things above the coupler don't screech whenever the train bounces (that doesn't happen too much either!).
Perhaps I'd miss them if I still smoked, but I haven't had a smoke since March 2, so...
Wayne
>>>>2.Unless I misunderstood what you meant, isn't there four places where there are direct
connections between the subway and the LIRR? Didn't you forget Atlantic & Flatbush? <<<
BUSTED!
I'll fix the page...
Very nice page, Kevin. The diesel engines are very handsome and I will miss them (especially my old friend #621), but NOT the despicable Coaches they used to pull. May they rust in pieces.
wayne
Take a look at a Hagstrom in the Jamaica area.
On the main line, just outside Jamaica to the west, you will find a station called Westbridge.
Westbridge hasn't been there since 1939!
www.forgotten-ny.com
That company seems to do a lot of that. Are they deliberately leaving rails on their maps long after they are gone in the real world to help out nostalgic trains buffs or do they just not bother to keep their maps updated?
For example: the Hudson County NJ map shows an old rail line on Essex Street in Jersey City, right where the new tracks were installed. Personal inspection of the site before construction began showed no such rail line visible.
Maybe Hagstrom is doing what some textbook publishers do - deliberately introducing mistakes or failing to update certain information, in order to facilitate prosecution of plagiarists.
(In plain English, it's easier to prove that they copied your work word-for-word if they also copied the errors!)
It isn't just Hagstrom. On our (BSM) line, we pass the filled in tunnel portal for Glen Edwards Avenue. The street used to pass under the B&O belt line and connected to a street in lower Hampden. The street vanished in the early 1950's, yet was shown on Rand McNally maps until the early 1980's. We've got a car stop there called (of course) Glen Edwards Avenue.
[Maybe Hagstrom is doing what some textbook publishers do - deliberately introducing mistakes or failing to update certain information, in order to facilitate prosecution of plagiarists.]
Possible, but unlikely. "Copyright traps" on maps seem to be less common nowadays than they were in the past. Most such deliberate errors (at least the ones that have been identified, of course) have involved adding nonexistent tiny, dead-end streets. In other words, the mistakes have to be minor enough as to avoid confusing anyone, and also minor enough that a plagarist wouldn't be likely to catch onto them. I would imagine that a decades-gone train station would be a poor choice for a copyright trap because it could be confusing to legitimate users and probably wouldn't slip past a plagarist.
Another thing I have noticed about the Hagstrom maps: they still show the White Plains Rd. line as part of the "East Side IRT" (two thin parallel lines) and the Dyre Ave. line as part of the "West Side IRT" (heavy solid black line). It hasn't been that way since 1965.
They make a point about being up-to-date as far as roads go, but don't seem terribly interested in updating rail information.
Maybe somebody should tell Hagstrom that the IRT and BMT Companies haven't existed in 50+ years!!
(Nah. Hagstrom would probably respond by suing to have the companies recreated, just to keep the maps accurate.)
And recreating the BMT and the IRT as private companies would be a bad idea????
One or the other, not both, and turn the whole system over to it.
Better yet, if 21st Century does a good job running the HBLR line, turn the NYC subways over to them for, say, 5 years, with 5 year renewals based on performance criteria.
That error's been corrected.
However, Westbridge is still there. It is marked as a FREIGHT station (with a white square as opposed to a black one). It's on Map 12, grid coordinate K12. They haven't gotten around to removing the abandoned stations on the Montauk branch either.
Speaking of Hagstrom maps - does anyone know where Ivy Close is in Forest Hills Gardens? It used to be on the Hagstrom maps, now I don't see it any more. They didn't build over that street, did they?
Wayne
If you look in Brooklyn, you will also see the Parkville station on the Bay Ridge line (as well as a portion of the connection with the Culver Line). Parkville hasn't seen passenger service since 1924!
They also show a Bay Ridge station at First Ave. and 65th St.
Holy Time-warp, Bob!
To be fair, the word "Parkville" was wiped from the latest 5-Boro in 1998, and Parkville was shown as a freight transfer station for years. I'm not sure how recently Parkville survived as freight transfer between LIRR and SBR...
I believe Bay Ridge station survives as a freight stop, though there's no platforms or anything.
For those who weren't there on our tour of the Bklyn waterfront last summer, an oddity of the Bay Ridge is that it has platforms in the big Army Terminal building. Elvis Presley debarked here en route to his army hitch in Germany in 1958.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, I believe Parkville Junction was last used as an SBK transfer station about 20 years ago. Once McDonald Avenue was repaved Parville in regards to railroad traffic was a moot issue.
Doug aka BMTman
Don't feel bad. The DeLorme "Street Atlas USA" (all versions) still show the "Pennsylvania Railroad". Only 32 years out of date.....
Which is why I never trust those electronic map packages.
-Hank
I'm with you, Hank. Doesn't seem to matter which brand you buy, they allhave the same errors!
It's my understanding that all the brands get their database information from the same source, so that would explain it.
Ben Franklyn's Philadelplia map shows Pennsylvania and Reading Railroad Routes.
So does Monopoly game boards!!!
Yeah, it does. ALso the B&O and Shortline. I mentioned to a freind of mine that they should maake the game slightly more realistic by updating the prices and costs equal to inflation. $120 school tax, HA!
-Hank
Just for everyones FYI: if you go to Mickey D's & get The Short Line Monopoly sticker hang on to it with your life! Thats the Rare piece of the RR set....
I've heard of the other three RRs in the world outside the monopoly game, but was there actually a RR known as the "Shortline"? If so, where did it run?
[I've heard of the other three RRs in the world outside the monopoly game, but was there actually a RR known as the "Shortline"? If so, where did it run?]
I believe it actually was a bus line.
Parker Bros cheated?
AHEM......ShortLine IS a bus line..runs from NYC up to the Hudson Valley, Catskills,etc [my dad drove for them for many years...]. The Short Line space in MONOPOLY I believe refers to any short line R.R. When the game was 'invented' [or at least adapted to Atlantic City..] The Pennsy, B&O, and Reading were all area railroads, and needing a fourth, he just called it Short Line for that reason
What about the Atlantic City & Shoreline RR....an interurban that connected AC and Ocean City. It originated at the foot of Virginia Ave and the Boardwalk, ran thru the city and over the Somers Pt. trestle to OC. It was abandoned in early 1948.
Carl M.
Im missing Mediterranean, Virginia, Ventnor, and Boardwalk to win something........
3TM
Is it still $5 for Baltic and Mediterranean or did they resurrect the collectible glass?
Still $5. Everybody's missing Ventnor. Anyway, the Prowler is an ughly car; I'd rather take the money. The Boardwalk stamp is probably non-existant.
Wayne
How can all of you guys eat there? Don't you have any respect for your arteries and heart?
I'm not playing this year's Monopoly! Except for now, when I'm done reading SubTalk, I'll go there to try that new sandwich they have.
Whenever I ride a 2 or 3 train that's just passed Fulton northbound, the conductor could theoretically make this announcement:
This is Park Place, the next stop will be Chambers Street followed by Fourteenth Street.
When I really wish he or she would say:
This is Park Place, the next stop will be Luxury Tax, followed by Boardwalk.
Now, if there could be a station named Go with a $200 payoff to anyone using it.-)
AND passing through.
Go is actually like Free Parking (the REAL Free Parking), you get nothing for standing there, you would get the $200 anyway.
If the game was based on NY, Free Parking would be $50.00 parking.
I'm surprised there isn't a New York City version of Monopoly (at least I haven't heard of one), because there is a Denver version. It was offered a few years back, and I grabbed a set. You'd figure the subway system would take the place of one of the railroads, and the LIRR would be substituted for one of the others.
While it's true that you're not supposed to get anything for landing on Free Parking, many of us who have played the game have had our own house rules which did allow some sort of monetary award.
[I'm surprised there isn't a New York City version of Monopoly (at least I haven't heard of one), because there is a Denver version. It was offered a few years back, and I grabbed a set. You'd figure the subway system would take the place of one of the railroads, and the LIRR would be substituted for one of the others.]
There is one. I don't know how the subway figures in, however.
Here are the spaces of transportation in New York Monopoly.
(From Go, Clockwise.)
League of Mutual Taxi Owners - A drawing of a Taxi
MTA New York City Transit - A drawing of the MTA logo and a bus
MTA Metro-North Railroad - A drawing of the MTA logo and the train that's in the regular Monopoly
United Airlines - A picture of a United Airlines plane
This is for the Authorized Edition (the one the MB made) I don't know what the other one looks like.
DO NOT PASS
Metrocard.cjb.net
DO NOT COLLECT $200
I did see a version which had the traditional railroad squares labelled for the "D Train", "N Train", and two others. They had a picture of the front of an R-44/46 type with the appropriate route markers on the corresponding squares.
Microsoft Encarta Maps still shows the Erie Main Line still intact, which means the next time I go to our library, I'll have to watch out for a freight coming through the main stacks room! Where the HELL do they get these databases from???
I worked with a guy who had done a lot of GIS and mapping work. He explained that back in the 80s they had college interns enter mapping information into a computers for the first time. It's never really been updated since then. Pretty much any electronic map has its roots in these databases. Not only was the quality of the original work suspect, but it is now approaching the 20 year mark. You're now relying on the publisher to 'correct' all those changes. Of course, many of them couldn't be bothered.
[I worked with a guy who had done a lot of GIS and mapping work. He explained that back in the 80s they had college interns enter mapping information into a computers for the first time. It's never really been updated since then. Pretty much any electronic map has its roots in these databases. Not only was the quality of the original work suspect, but it is now approaching the 20 year mark. You're now relying on the publisher to 'correct' all those changes. Of course, many of them couldn't be bothered.]
Back in the old Soviet Union during the Cold War days, maps were considered at least partially classified. The few U.S. tourists in Moscow found it very difficult to get about, as the only city street maps available were inaccurate, hand-drawn versions. It seems almost like we're returning to those days right here in the good old USA!
I thought the Erie Mainline went from Hoboken through Suffern to Port Jervis. NJT and Metro North run trains on this route every day. If it wasn't the Erie Mainline before NJT and Metro North took over, what was it? And where was the mainline?
The Erie Main Line used to run directly through the towns of Harriman, Monroe, Goshen,and Middletown. What the current MN/NJT service now runs on used to be a freight-only line called the Graham Line, with most of the stations literally out in the middle of nowhere, or strategically equidistant from several smaller bedroom towns....for example: Salisbury Mills/Cornwall is a 10 minute drive or less from Washingtonville, New Windsor, Cornwall, etc... The old Main was abandoned in 1982 by Conrail, and is now totally unusable...Especially in Goshen and Middletown, where there has been construction over where the old ROW used to be...For example, Middletown took the old Erie station, refurbished it, and added on to it for a new public library (and did a real fine job too- they matched the brick and design very nicely,looks very seamless...)
Thanks for the info. I rode the train from Hoboken to Suffern a few weeks ago. I believe that most of the NJT Main Line to Suffern is the same allignment as the Erie Main Line along that stretch, isn't it? Do you know where the current Port Jervis tracks depart the old ROW.
Actually, the Bergen County line was rerouted from its original ROW at some point north of Rutherford. I'm not sure where or when. There are two tracks in decent condition which go west, and rejoin the B.C. line sometime later.
The Main line for a while ran on a short one track section from just south of Kingsland, and rejoins the existing tracks near the swamp. Look at the Hagstrom Bergen County map and you'll see it.
The old Erie Main survives until a point past the present day Harriman platform. There is a junction there which still goes to the big chemical factory there, this was where the Erie Main turned northwest.
>>>>Don't feel bad. The DeLorme "Street Atlas USA" (all versions) still show the "Pennsylvania Railroad". Only 32
years out of date..... <<<<
I get the feeling that DeLorme consulted atlases from 50 years ago or more; it still shows an Old Bowery bay Road in Astoria. Old Belcher Hydes show that that road was there once, but it's been built over since the 1920s! Similar errors are found elsewhere....
www.forgotten-ny.com
My Hagstrom atlas of Union, Hudson and Essex counties still shows stations on the CNJ in Jersey City, extra stations on the NEC like South Elizabeth and stations on the CNJ from CP-Adiline to Elizabethport. However they did remember to remove the CNJ Newark Bay lift bridge.
My Bergen Co. one shows South Patterson (Main Line). All that's left of that station are the small brown signs.
Need Help!
A couple of years back I picked up a flyer at a train show advertising a computer game "Trolley Time Challenge" by Challenge Products of Charlotte, NC. I was wondering if the game is still available, and if so, has anyone in SubTalk land actually tried it?
If you have tried it, what do you think of it? It seems there are computer games for diesels and steam, but none, other than this one, that would approach as close as possible the actual operation of traction. (ie, non SMEE brakes, controller, etc)
HELP!!!!!!
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Actually, there was a game that just came out in Japan for the Japanese Playstation that is a train driving simulator focusing on Subway/LRV driving. The game is hard to find, as it is only being released in Japan for Japanese Playstations, but it looks to be an excellent game. The game is fourth in a series of train driving sims, the other three focusing more on commuter/express operation. I have one of the games, and I am waiting for this one to arrive through an importer. The one that I already have is excellent, featuring a wide variety of commuter trains, as well as a couple of the Japanese Shinkansen, or bullet trains. The game that has just been released focuses on subway and LRV operation in Nagoya, Japan, and features a number of different subway lines, as well as a street running LRV. You can check out
this site for more info on the games, and feel free to contact me if you want to know more.
Trolley Time Challenge is very much around. I've played with it at a couple of shows where they have had a booth and enjoyed it, but I'm not into computer games so I can't offer any real observations. Their web page is here: Challenge Products.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yup I did beta testing on it and his Frieght Challenge game as well. Good game but it's 16bit but I still play it on the laptop when traveling.
Can you help me identify two Brooklyn streets, etc? (1) Joe G. has several great old bus photos taken at "Washington Plaza." At what streets is this located? And what "el" line is pictured in the background? (2) I have a photo I took Christmas day '91, of an IRT "redbird" sitting on a concrete overpass on the way into a yard somewhere in the east part (I think!!) of Brooklyn. I took the photo from a 4-lane street divided by a median, which runs underneath this concrete overpass. The sloped roofs of the yard's shop can be seen in the background. Could this be the East New York yards? And does anyone have any idea what street I was on? (I'll scan the photo if this will help). Thanks!
Although Kevin Walsh (a frequent poster here) from forgotten-ny.com is probably the one to ask I'm guessing that Washington Plaza was/is the bus terminal at the foot of the Williamsburg Bridge and that the concrete overpass is bridging Linden Boulevard ??
>>>>Although Kevin Walsh (a frequent poster here) from forgotten-ny.com is probably the one to ask I'm
guessing that Washington Plaza was/is the bus terminal at the foot of the Williamsburg Bridge and that
the concrete overpass is bridging Linden Boulevard ?? <<<<
Play my music!
This sounds like a job for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Washington Plaza is indeed the trolley, and now, bus terminal at the foot of the Willlliamsburg on the Brooklyn side. In fact, there's a statue of the man who was first in war, first in peace, and first to get a Metrocard right there.
The concrete overpass SOUNDS like the one that goes over Linden en route to the yards, but Dave In Milwaukee said it was a four lane street; Linden has way more than that. I don't hang out in that part of town much, so perhaps the overpass goes over another street in the area...
Thanks, Forgotten New York Man. I knew I could count on you. So, if Washington Plaza is located at the foot of the Williamsburg Bridge, the El pictured overhead would have to be the J-M-Z. Am I correct?? Also, I took a closer look at my photo. I guess there are six lanes on that street by the yards (Linden Blvd?). But there's also a street that runs along (i.e, parallel to) the concrete overpass. Any idea what it is?? And what line sends IRT trains come into that yard? The 2 & 3?
Well, Linden Boulevard (NY-27) has a main road with seven lanes (center buffer/left turning lane), the median is flush. There are one lane service roads (New York speak for frontage roads) on each side separated from the main road by narrow raised malls and parallel parking lanes on the service roads adjacent to the sidewalk side.
Dear Mr. Royal Island: My photo is from '91. Maybe they removed the median and made a left-turn lane since then? Or, could there be any other cross-streets running under the concrete overpasses right near the yard? And do you know what street runs parallel to the viaduct? Much thanks to you and Mr. Forgotten for helping out a NY fan in the midwest (I can't scoot over to Bkln right away to check it out myself!)
No, I remember it from the eighties, it was like that all the time.
The only street that runs parallel to it is Ashford St. Livonia Yard is home of the 3 line, but you will see 4 and 5's and an occasionally 2 stored in there..........
BM34x
When Linden Blvd goes under the overpass, it does indeed have a center median with left turn bays, as well as a service road on each side seperated from the main road by another raised island. the two streets that run parallel to the overpass are Elton St and Linwood St: Elton to the west and Linwood to the east.
The city has done a good job by getting the system back to what is supposed to look. But they need to do better. So what they need to do is:
1. Build that Second Avenue Subway Line. (My version)
2. Rebuild the track placement on the Manhattan Bridge, and the DOT needs to fully fix the Manhattan Bridge.
3. When kids have committed crimes and they have been sent to Community Service they should be sent to stations and clean up the graffiti in those stations.
4. Kids that are seen doing graffiti/scratching the glass should be sent to Community service and fined, and their parents have to pay for the clean up to remove that piece of glass and/ or graffiti on the body of the train.
5. Use a new material on the windows so that scratching the glass is a thing of that past.
6. Start to fix the neglected station in the Bronx like 183 Street Stations on the D and 4. A lot of stations in the Bronx are being neglected. It seems that important Manhattan station comes before these stations all the time. I say an old station w/ a new look my make a neighborhood proud and help to maintain it.
7. Repaint the tunnels to remove graffiti. Or put graffiti proof cement in the tunnels.
8. Start soon.
9. I say make the 5 and Q full time expresses.
Thank you
Christopher Rivera
Most of this sounds reasonable to me. In fact, NYCT is soliciting bids right now for design work on station rehabs on 3 Woodlawn Line stations: 167th Street, Fordham Road, and Woodlawn (any engineers out there? Bids are due 4/17!). NYCT does station rehabilitations in a specific order, based on a combination of factors, including condition and level of use.
As to Second Avenue, who knows? Politicians are at least TALKING about the project as if it will happen, which is more than they've done in many, many years. It SHOULD get done, no doubt about it.
The Manhattan Bridge is being done, very slowly. The switch from the A/B tracks to the H tracks should happen late next year, and it is hoped to have full service on all four tracks by 2004.
The new subway cars will have windows with a "sacrificial" layer of plastic that can be removed when scratched and replaced at a lower cost than replacing the window glass.
As to making the #5 and the Q full-time expresses, riding on the Dyre Aenue and Brighton segments during the hours these services don't run (or run as shuttles) doesn't warrant full-time operation. Besides, with all the General Orders throughout the system, they'd probably be cancelled more often than they'd operate!
NYCT once had a program under which vandals, turnstile jumpers, etc. could be sentenced to graffiti removal and other such things. It was called WARP (Work Alternative Restitution Program). I'm not sure it's still around. What's needed is for the courts to take such crimes seriously and mete out appropriate sentences.
NYCT washes tunnels on a regular basis, but I don't know what's used, beyond high-pressure water. There was a plan a number of years ago to remove graffiti on a regular basis from open-cut areas of the system (such as the Brighton Line between Prospect Park and Newkirk Avenue), but it fell victim to the cutbacks of the early 1990s before it could ever be started.
David
Sounds good Dave. But is it really going to happen. How do you know this; do you work for the TA? The NY Subway should be a model for the rest of the world and should not be neglected as it has been. I wonder who really is at fault for this unsavory situation?
Is what really going to happen? The Jerome Av station rehabs? It's on the MTA website, under Capital Programs.
David
Well David, since you are in the know, tell me about the West End and the Sea Beach lines. When is the refurbishment coming there? Or is that way back on the backburner? Some of those stations are in dire need of repair.
Sorry, but no West End or Sea Beach stations are in the 2000-2004 MTA Capital Program Proposal (October 1999).
David
If the #5 and "Q" can't be made full-time expresses, at least make the "Q" an express on weekends, say, between 7AM and 9PM.
#5 service should be continued to Brooklyn weekdays during midday hours.
Wayne
I think that the Q should run on the weekends. The 5 current pattern is good enough now. There are enough bottlenecks at Franklin junction during rush hour. Middays are not worth. Besides the 4 does a good job of supplying service. Plus with GO on the 3 line, like Dave said, it would never get started. I would probably send the 5 to Atlantic if that at all.......
The 161-YS Bronx bound side on the 4 line is getting work. I heard it shoud be done by Tuesdays home opener.......
BM34x
For this coming summer, look for 4 service to terminate at Atlantic Ave during the middays, because of ongoing work from Utica to New Lots.
It is already doing that now.............
3TM
Don't confuse "the city" with NYC Transit.
NYC Transit is a STATE agency (part of the MTA) which operates subway and bus service within the five boroughs.
"The City" is Rudy. He has stated for the record that he'd like to control the entire MTA (including Transit, Long Island Bus, Bridges & Tunnels, and the regional railroads). Of course, he'll never try because CONTROL necessarily entails RESPONSIBILITY, financial and otherwise. If that happens, it's the '70s all over again.
>>>>1. Build that Second Avenue Subway Line. (My version)
2. Rebuild the track placement on the Manhattan Bridge, and the DOT needs to fully fix the Manhattan
Bridge. <<<'
As for the $$$$?
>>>>3. When kids have committed crimes and they have been sent to Community Service they should be sent
to stations and clean up the graffiti in those stations.
4. Kids that are seen doing graffiti/scratching the glass should be sent to Community service and fined,
and their parents have to pay for the clean up to remove that piece of glass and/ or graffiti on the
body of the train. <<<<
Sharpton, Hillary, Jose Serrano, Siegel the ACLU guy, etc would object.
Actually I'd like everything on your list. I'd like full time round the clock express service too. My only thought is that on lengthy express runs, miscreants would have more opportunity to attend to their calling, since there would be less escape for victims...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hillary? Are you New Yorkers nuts or just lacking in any pride whatsoever? She is playing New York like a fiddle and using it as a stepping stone for a run at the White House. And if you think that she will do anything except make excuses for the thugs and bums that will come out of the woodwork when Rudy leaves the Mayor's job, then you're even nuttier. AND...if you believe that carpetbagger is going to do anything for the subway system---then you guys in Gotham are as looony as they come.
Why are you posting this? Was Kevin endorsing Hillary?
>>>>Was Kevin endorsing Hillary? <<<<
He don't know me very well, do he?
Kevin, it wasn't directly meant for you. I have been told where you stand, but others read these strands and maybe it is food for thought for them. Of course, I'm not sure Rudy is such a big subway fan himself but at least he's a New Yorker. AND-----any New Yorker, resident, native, etc, should take pride in its subway system. It should be, as I mentioned be