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PLEASE NOTE:
Due to many requests, I am making the following changes:
The time has been changed from 10 to 10:30 and we are meeting at the TOKEN BOOTH not on the platform.
Date: Sunday March 12, 2000
Time: 10:30 AM
Place: By the TOKEN BOOTH at 63rd Drive Station (Queens Blvd IND line)
Hope to see you all there.
-Mark W.
Is there only one token booth at that station?
I hope so....If not, It is a Sunday, Only the main one would be open anyway. I'll check it out tomorrow. Thanks for reminding me.
-Mark W.
I've seen two O-L-D cards recently that many of you may not have.
1. Triplex 10.5 MIL, that's the paper/plastic gold card. There has been a PLAIN version comming out of a ATM at one of the local banks. 10.5 MIL was one of the test versions ... maybe some old stock that they are using up ?
2. Paper/Mag Transfer ... again maybe some old stock that looks like in some Jamaica Bus coaches. "MetroCard - Transfer" vs. "MetroCard - Bus Transfer".
I, of course, have some to trade if you can't get one. E-mail me off line if you're interested. I seem to only have the standard version of the Single Ride (green) MC, so if you want to trade for that drop me a line.
Mr t__:^)
There was mentioned in a thread the Three Kings Kosher Deli. Does anyone know the exact address?
First, It's Four Kings Kosher Deli.
The address is: 19 W45th Street Between 5th & 6th Avenues. (Three doors from the Red Caboose) They are open M-TH 8-8, F 8-3
Don't waste your time going. I took an F train there a few weeks ago, based on reading a post here (I had a yen for real pastrami), when I got there they had no pastrami in fact the whole deli section wasn't even open! (What kind of kosher deli doesn't have pastrami!) It was lunch time and there were about 2 customers in the place and they looked like they were about 2 days away from going out of business. Save your token!
Peace,
Andee
Oh Boy, here we go with the Deli Again. I hope they still have that Deli In Hong Kong. That will be my Saturday Night Dinner
Remember old HUMANS: The Deli Best?
NOTICE:
From this message on, e-mail is BOARSHEVIK@metrocard.cjb.net
This message will be used to announce e-mail changes.
This news is not new to subtalkers, but last night Fox 25 news here in Boston confirmed that Acela express may be delayed until July because the trains shipping has been delayed by a month.
On a lighter note, I've been hearing some more positive feedback on Acela Regional. Looks like Amtrak is actually working (or has worked out) most of the bugs, and is now an efficient service, at least by Amtrak standards :) -Nick
/*This news is not new to subtalkers, but last night Fox 25 news here in Boston confirmed that Acela express may be delayed until July
because the trains shipping has been delayed by a month*/
And technical glitches too. I seriously don't believe the sets will enter service in July, in fact, I don't think we'll be seeing acela express anything before maybe september or october the earliest.
Actualy, given how much of a headache the HHL-8s, and the express sets are, it's a wonder that amtrak's letting the same clownat Alsthom rebuild the AEM-7, which despite it's age is a perfectly viable locomotive.
/*On a lighter note, I've been hearing some more positive feedback on Acela Regional. Looks like Amtrak is actually working (or has worked
out) most of the bugs, and is now an efficient service, at least by Amtrak standards :) -Nick */
In other words, the NEC finally has the same kind of rail service that Europeans have been enjoying since the early 1950's? :)
In an earlier post - Philip Nasadowski commented -
""In other words, the NEC finally has the same kind of rail service that Europeans have been enjoying since the early 1950's? :)""
The above comment was in relation to the launch of ACELA regional service.
FWIW - I have been to Europe about 15 times over the last ten years. Perhaps European train service was exceptional quality during the 1950s. But the 1990s in Europe were nothing to brag about. In Italy - missed connections and late trains have been a frequent occurence. Bureaucrats in a booth (read ticket agents) are less than helpful. On train personnel - uncommunicative.
In the Netherlands - most trains arrive and depart on time - but with few if any services (i.e. cafe car) and speeds rarely exceed 80MPH - same as most AMTRAK disel MAS.
As for cost - AMTRAK has virtually anyplace in Europe beat as they are far less expensive for distances covered than European counterparts - except for short haul (say 50 miles or less) trips.
If AMTRAK has European trains beat in terms of cost and customer service and has nearly matching track speeds in many cases - why hold up European service as a model??
The only point where European service has AMTRAK whipped is frequency of trains. European train service is much better in this area. But it's really the only area where the masses are served in a superior way to AMTRAK.
I think that most people see the Europeans so far ahead because of their advancements in high speed rail in certain corridors, specifically the TGV-Eurostar-Thalys trains. Those are the trains that get the press, so it's only logical that we look to Amtrak to hold TGV-style service as a goal. But you're right, no one knows or hears about the rest of the train services over there...
Here's a specific example of European rail service between two major cities - Amsterdam and Hamburg.
* Only one train a day makes this trip and it requires a change of trains in an obscure city.
* The distance traveled is 310 miles and is covered in about 6 hours - an average of about 51 MPH.
* The fare for this trip is virtually same as Amtrak would charge for same distance.
I think it's a good example of the European train service that most long haul rail travelers in Europe experience.
The data below was copied directly from a European rail travel site.
Check it out yourselves. European rail service is right up there with Amtrak when it comes to true main stream service:
From
AMSTERDAM CS
To
HAMBURG HBF
First class fare
$118.00
Second class fare
$80.00
Average travel time
6 hours
Distance
497 km / 310 miles
For a while, 9411 was coupled to 9348. This morning leading the Flushing Local to Times Square, 9411 was once again happily married to 9410. Good to see her back. Haven't seen 9348-9349 yewt, but I bet they'll be reunited too.
R36Gary
Did they sign a pre-nuptual agreement? Who gets custody of the air compressor?
Sounds like Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice to me.-)
Nah, those are the R32s.
Wayne
That would be Felix and Oscar then.
Sort of: #3348 is Oscar, #3549 is Felix.
Wayne
9348-9349 were in Coney Island Shop last week being married again.
Speaking of O/S cars, you might want to consider scratching off 9500 and 9501 as the first of the R36 fleet to be "dishonorably discharged". Their fires at Spring St did damage considerable of main shop repair and this late in the game with new deliveries coming soon, they are being stripped. The first of the last are going.
Dah, dah ta-da, dah da-dah ta-da, ta-da....
OK, they both will get an orange box.
Wayne
#9410 had a minor injury to his anti-climber; #9349 had some smoke or fire damage I hear, nothing that serious.
Wayne
No. 9410 got hit by 9349. Both had anticlimber damage.
At least it wasn't a BMT standard.-)
03/01/2000
Darva Conger should have such luck !!
Bill Newkirk
If I am going to complain, then I also have to acknowledge when something good happens.
The subway map on the MTA site (http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/maps/submap.htm), which formerly had several errors, has been corrected. All of the service information is current, and -- most importantly -- The Brooklyn-Queens border is now shown in the right place.
However, there are some interesting things on this map concerining stations' secondary names.
The online map restores some (not all) of the secondary names that the official printed map no longer shows.
For example, the two stops on the J train which the official map now labels as "75 St" and "85 St" are shown on the online map as they used to be shown on earlier editions of the printed map: "75 St-Elderts La" and "85 St-Forest Pkwy".
Also, the online map once again shows "Queens Mall" as a secondary name for the Woodhaven Blvd. stop on the G and R. The most recent printed map calls this stop simply "Woodhaven Blvd", after years of having listed the stop's secondary name of either "Queens Mall" or "Slattery Plaza".
However, this map does not restore the name "Continental Av" to the stop that is now called "Forest Hills-71 Av". I still don't get this decision. As I mentioned a while ago, I think that the "Continental Avenue" portion of 71st Avenue extends all the way to Queens Blvd.; others have maintained that it ends one block earlier at Austin St. Either way, this name is too well-known to be dropped, in my opinion.
Alas, the purely "historical" secondary names -- such as "Rawson", "Bliss", "Beebe", "Boyd", "Hudson", and "Oxford" -- have not been restored, and seem to be gone for good. I would guess that "Continental" was dropped because it was lumped with these names. However, this is a mistake, since "Continental Avenue" is a *current* name, not a historical one.
Finally, in another throwback to an earlier edition of the printed map, the online map shows the J train station that is now known as "104 St." under the name it formerly carried, "104-102 Sts".
Anyway, nice going on the MTA webmaster's part to fix the map. I hope that it indicates that the next edition of the printed map will once again show some of the secondary names.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I live in Forest Hills and the Sign on the corner of Queens Blvd says
both 71st Ave / Continental Ave
We got the opposite in DC. Our names are now longer. We now have Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams-Morgan and West Falls Church/VT-UVA.
What exactly are the rules about subway-bus and bus-subway transfers?
How does the card "know" that you are allowed to do this? What's the time limit?
In what instances is it most useful?
Will there ever be subway-subway transfers for free transfers among close lines that are not official transfers? (I couldn't even do this with an unlimited ride metrocard when I tried.)
You have a 2 hour period from the point you paid the first fare to make the transfer. When the card is swiped thru a turnstile or dipped in a bus fare box a transfer is encoded on the magnetic strip as well as the date and time. When you make your transfer this data is read in. If you are within the 2 hour window then the farebox/turnstile will read "Transfer OK". If you miss the window then $1.50 will be deducted from your card.
It is most useful when you live in what used to be a 2 fare zone(bus to subway).
Subway to subway transfers? I wonder why they would be necessary since there are major free tranfer points where you can transfer to other lines (e.g. Times Square, 59 St-Lex Av, 51 St/53 St to name a couple).
At some point they will remove the 18 minute waiting period on the unlimiteds (except at the same station that you are entering the system).
[At some point they will remove the 18 minute waiting period on the unlimiteds (except at the same station that you are entering the system).]
Just in case you didn't completely understand what Allen was refering to here ... with an "Unlimited" MC you get free transfers between subway lines too, provide there has been 18 minutes between the turnstile useage.
If you're are a occasional bus/subway user the 24 hour fun pass is the best value at $4.00 for one person all day travel until 3 AM. Other unlimited MCs expire at Midnight so hang onto your glass slippers.
Mr t__:^)
Last Year on April 30th, a gas out was staged across the USA to bring the price of gas down, and it worked. Its timne to do something about it again. Only this time lets make it for 3 days instead of 1. The so-called oil cartel decided to slow production to drive up the gas prices. Saudi Arabia alone is making a additional $135 million dollars A DAY since this has taken effect. Lets see how many Americans we can get to ban together for a 3 day period in April. NOT TO BUY ANY GASD, during those three days. LETS HAVE A GAS OUT. DO NOT BUY ANY GASOLINE FROM APRIL 7 through APR 9, 2000. Buy what you need before or after, but try not to buy anything during the Gas Out. If you want help to help, just send this to everyone you know and ask them to do the same. We brought the prices down once before, and we can do it again. WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE::::::::::::::
Remember, adjusted for inflation the cost of a barrel of oil is down 50 percent from the peak. Oil and gasoline may not be as cheap as before, but they are not high by any means.
The past half-decade has seen a lot of bad habits creep back in. Fuel economy has started to turn downward, thanks to the SUVs, carpooling has almost disappeared, etc. etc. Fortunately, transit systems have been kept up of even expanded, but outside the New York area the employed population has moved even further away from the places where transit is. In short, most people just aren't thinking about energy conservation anymore.
So while I have some sympathy for those who really got nailed by the oil heat spike (which seemed higher than the increase in oil prices at the well) I don't see current fuel prices as damaging. Further increases WOULD be damaging, and are made more likely by fuelish decisions.
Aww hell, I'm gonna go home and gas my bike up those days just to tick the gas out crowd.
If you don't like paying for gas, get an efficient car, and stop driving everywhere.
Otherwise, shut up and deal with it.
I've yet to meet anyone who's had a gun held to their head and been forced to buy a Navigator.
You got a car that gets 10 mpg. Dump it, or shut up about the cost of gas.
Sorry for sounding so abrasive guys, but I've been hearing this from everyone on campus for the last few months, and frankly, I'm sick of it.
If you don't like paying for gas, get an efficient car, and stop driving everywhere.
And if you want a really efficient car, buy a hybrid, such as the
Insight. 70mpg highway, 60mpg city.
CH.
(If you want really good mileage, buy a Hybrid car)
I've got a three year old Saturn Wagon with 20,000 miles on it, and I plan to keep it until it dies. On that basis, I'm hoping the next car I buy will be a really high mileage/low pollution vehicle. Hopefully in 10 to 15 years there will be some real change.
If gasoline prices stay high enough for people to care.
Who do you work for Standard Oil? I have no choice, My car gets 30MPG, but there is no public transportation where I live. Also we pay 30 cents a gallon more then you do in NYC. We are being ripped off, and it is time to put up or shut up. If you don t have a car, then it does not concern you
But your problem is one of location. Everything's more expensive in the islands, not just gas. Sure, I hate paying the ridiculous price for heating oil that I had to this last tankful, and it irks me that gas is $1.379, but all the vehicles in our family fleet are reasonable compromises between fuel economy and utility - no SUVs but no tin cans either. Not buying gas on one (or three) particular days will only shift the volume to other days, it won't affect total consumption.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(We pay 30 cents a gallon more than in NYC)
Where do YOU live? With our high gas prices, high land prices, and ban on certain kinds of tank trucks, I thought our gas prices were number one.
Time to raise the fuel tax.
Bob lives in the Hawaiian islands. What you get in beauty and climate, you pay for in every other way as everything needs to be shipped over there.
Same here Phil. Its just another urban legend/email forwarding thing anyway just to see how far it will go. I vowed never to forward any of those. I only forward jokes. By the way, Phil, do you go to the Blue Knights Bike Blessing in Suffolk in April?
i don't believe in that gas out either sarge--- although if the nypd were to ground all its gas guzzling cars and send out the patrols on bicycles and horses, that might make a powerful statement to the oil companies--- if there aren't enough bikes or horses, perhaps they could use rollerskates or skateboards--- just a thought ( i'm getting desperate for material )
Material solution - employ better writers.
All seriousness aside, gas-outs don't really work, just hurt the little guy who's the dealer - he doesn't set prices, the oil companies do, and unsold gas @ 1.28, sold to you @ 1.15 is a 13 cent/gal loss to him. A local Baltimore dealer I buy from has no pay-at-pumps. Why? Because he can't make money on gas, and if he had pay-at pump nobody would come inside pay and buy coffee, munchies, lottery, cigarettes.
That's how he stays in business.
I buy gas once a month. Take transit to work, car is only used for short trips (store, BSM). Wife uses her car, drives 3.2 miles to work.
She has newer car, gas fill-ups every 6 days or so.
Out here in Oregon unleaded goes for $1.47 and super for $1.58,it's been around this level from last Sept,but people still buy the big pickups and suv's also does anyone have meter ramps to the freeways...er highways..sorry we don't have tolls here yet,but meter ramps are the entrance ramps to the highways but they have a set of traffic lights that controls two lanes of traffic,each car is allowed to go when the light is green it only goes from red to green so the cars are metered to merge into the traffic,the traffic dept says this helps with congestion but it gets people mad,the fines are steep if you get caught,they only work durring the rush hours and are off on weekends...it's comming to a city near you.
Maryland is experimenting with meter ramps on the Capitol Beltway (I-495), where backups occur 24 hours a day. Closest thing we have to Left Coast traffic. Makes the Baltimore Beltway at rush hour look like a kindergarten playgound. The daily Towson backup on I-695 is irritating enough. When I worked in Frederick, I avoided the Towson area by using one of four alternates. Hit Towson eastbound after 6PM and the backup goes away.
Now I work downtown, and that's 38 minutes from home by express bus.
The LIE, Northern State/Grand Central, and the Van Wyck have them but they are used only during certain times.
They could ride hippos or rather large pigs. We'll have our best people (pigs) on it. We use this to get the trust of the humans so we could get really close and stab them in the back. Beware of pigs bearing (pigging) gifts.
PIGSIDENT, PIG MINISTER
UNITED SWINES OF HAMERICA
IN PIG WE TRUST
I can't - I'm stuck up here in Hartford now :(
I *do* get spring break to myself (bike's going to Rolling Thunder next week actually, for it's 10k checkout), but after that, back up here. A much as I'd *LOVE* to have it up here, I have no secure parking for it. That'll be fixed hopefully in another month or two (I'm hoping to co-op at pratt and Whittney this summer). I had my bike up here last summer (summerterm class), and it inadvertantly became the topic of the faculty*, as I rode it to class (yes, even on those rainy days). Something about parking a big black and chrome Harley out front the school in the faculty lot......
*I'm not kidding either, people were litterally stopping into the office wondering who's bike it was - UHA might be a bit big, but Ward's a tiny school, and everyone knows each other. Now if only we could get rid of those pesky art students....
UHA - is that the University of Hartford, by any chance?
Yeah :(
Remember what happened during the Arab oil embargo? Demand for small cars went through the roof. Dealers were quoting 16-week lead times for Ford Pintos and other subcompacts. Same thing in 1979 when Iran cut off oil exports to the US, although that amounted to a mere fraction of the total we were importing. I'm willing to bet that if this keeps up much longer, people may start thinking twice about that SUV or other boat they may have had their sights set on.
Our Southwest Corridor line will be opening not a moment too soon...
This "Gas Out" thing doesn't do one ounce of harm to the oil companies!~ It's just a fart in a windstorm.
Think about it. If you drive to work every day, do the same routine errands, etc., you're still using the same amount of fuel. You're going to have to buy fuel no matter what.
If you REALLY want to tell the oil companies something -- STOP DRIVING AND USING FUEL!!
I did not say stop driving, just do not buy on those 3 days, buy before, buy after.
That's exactly why it won't make a difference. If the oil companies are smart, they'll raise gas prices the day before and day after the gasout.
Actually, if they don't see a gas out coming, the fueling up before the gas out might create a shortage.
One book I highly recommend is The Prize, the history of the oil industry (D. Yergin). According to Yergin, part of the 1979 gas crisis was sheer panic. Expecting gas lines and soaring prices, everyone in the country decided to fuel up as often as possible. The average car went from having 1/4 tank of gas to 3/4 tank, and that demand surge was enough to set the crisis off.
That's when stations started imposing a $5.00 minimum purchase to prevent people from topping off their tanks. This is not to be confused with the $2.00 and $3.00 limits which were encountered, or limited hours of pumps being open. There was a story about some guy who pulled into a gas station and ended up buying 11 cents worth of gas. He even wanted to charge it.
The funny thing is, I don't ever remember having to wait in line during either of those episodes, nor did I ever resort to topping off the tank. I still don't; often times I'll be running on fumes when the times comes to gas up again.
That's the one big advantage of my van - depending on the driving conditions, I can go up to 750 miles between fill-ups.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Think abou it, that's still as stupid as can be. If you want to hurt the oil companies (HA! Fat chance...) you cut down your total driving volume. You don't just shift your purchase to before or after those days. If you do, you're STILL using the same amount of the oil companies' products if you buy before or after.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. This whole "Gas-Out" thing is just another foolish thing the Internet has furthered...and those foolish enough to believe it, well, I think there's a bridge in Brooklyn they might want to buy too. Anyone with a brain can figure it out.
"Anyone with a brain can figure it out."
That pretty much rules out the City Council doesn't it?
Slow down!
That Speed Limit, whether it's 55 ,65 or anything else is the TOP Speed limit. You don,t have to do the limit or 5 ,10, or 15 above the limit.If you must go by car, enjoy the trip, and find dividends in the tank,tires,cooling sys,and blood pressure. You will consume less and begin to force a surplus . DRIVERS UNITE, slow down and stick in to BIG OIL.
(Slow down to save oil)
There is another product of the 1970s that has bit the dust recently, the 55 mile per hour speed limit. If the Transit Authority system safety department was in charge of highway speeds, the limit would be 40 miles per hour, and we'd have plenty of gas.
Actually, don't faster speeds save gasoline?
Actually, don't faster speeds save gasoline?
No. The mean optimum speed for fuel economy on a straight, level, dry road is somewhere in the 45 mph range. 55 mph isn't significantly different for a normal passenger car (trucks and SUVs actually do fall off measurably even at 55 due to wind resistance), but above 55 mph there is a measurable decrease in fuel economy - the difference between 55 mph and 75 mph is 15% or more for a passenger car, 25% or more for a semi, even with advances in technology over the past 25 years. It's all a factor of rolling resistance, wind resistance, and internal driveline friction and the amount of fuel that must be consumed to overcome these factors. Some vehicles have higher optimum speeds, of course, and some lower, but statistically most vehicles fall into that range. Hills, curves, and weather conditions also factor in, but they tend to affect all vehicles in proportion, so the straight, level, dry pavement figure is still a good working number.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then you have power plants.
VW Turbodiesel Vs gasoline engin is similar platforms have an edge.
Hate to say it, but my '95 Ford Ranger with the supercab and 4-cylinder (gutless wonder) engine does better at the higher speeds. I've driven from home to San Diego (about a hundred miles) and back at 55-60 and then other times (like the other day...) at 70-75, and got back with a lot more gas in the tank at the higher speeds. I guess with the gutless factor of the engine, if you get the thing rolling, it doesn't take much more "oomph" to get up the gentle grades of I-5!!
I have found that cruise control can hurt economy more than help it. That gizmo is trying to maintain a steady speed, and if you're climbing hills or gentle slopes, it'll kick the throttle open to maintain speed. I tried using my cruise control once while driving through Nebraska, and even though I was doing 75 mph heading eastbound, which is basically downhill, I had the all-time worst average for a tank of gas my Jeep ever had. That was it - I didn't use it for the rest of my trip, and my mileage was much better.
You'd encounter a LOT of opposition to the 55 mph speed limit out in this part of the country, especially with all the wide open space in, say, Utah or Nevada.
Heck, there's a lot of opposition to it here in New Jersey too. I probably shouldn't admit it, but on more than one occasion I've been flowing with traffic on the Garden State during the morning rush (I drive exit 105 to 114) and have glanced down at the big digital speedometer in my Windstar and been staring at 87 mph. Fortunately, most of the time traffic flows between 70 and 75 and even that's too fast for me. But I go with the flow rather than have everyone else swerving around me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do you know how silly this idea is? Think about it. So I won't buy gas for 3 days. I'll just make sure i have a full tank the day before, and fill it again after. Tell me, I may feel like I accomplished something, but did I really? Also, no one fills up that often except for delivery guys, or folks who have their gas money reimbursed by their company.
Oh, yeah: http://www.snopes.com/spoons/faxlore/gasout.htm.
-Hank
Looking at a map of the New York subway system I am taken by the fact that when he look at the Bronx it seems the trains go awfully close to the edge of the next county, which I believe in Westchester. Is there anyone out there who can tell me just how close to the Westchester County Line the 1 2, 4, 5, and 6 trains are. When I was in New York in 1991 I did ride those trains and I believe the 1, and 4 were very close to the next county. I never did check that out when I visited last summer so I would appreciate any help anyone out there can offer.
241st on the 2 is the furthest north. Not sure how close, though.
According to Delorme's Street Atlas program, the Dyre Ave Station is 662' from the Westchester line. The E. 241st St Station is 1125' from the the line.
But 241 is furthest north.
According to my observation on the Hagstrom NYC Atlas, both E241 Street and Dyre Avenue are both 1213 feet to the border.
Woodlawn is 6809 feet to the border. Van Cortlandt Park is 8157 feet to the border. Far Rockaway is 3800 feet to the border.
Chaohwa
[Far Rockaway is 3800 feet to the border.]
That's about right, as I thought the A Train was the subway line that came closest to one of the suburban counties (Nassau in this case).
3800 is about half a mile (of course all the MTA would have to do is extend the A line alittle more than 1/4 of a mile and it could share a terminal station with the LIRR Far Rockaway branch).
Doug aka BMTman
>>>>3800 is about half a mile (of course all the MTA would have to do is extend the A line alittle more than
1/4 of a mile and it could share a terminal station with the LIRR Far Rockaway branch). <<<
The lines were connected once. They were severed sometime in the 1950s, as the LIRR sold the tracks and ROW to the TA, or what passed for it in 1956. Joe Brennan knows all in this regard...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The San Diego Trolley is 310 feet from the Border Fred, Borders are between 2 seperate countries. You teach Social Studies, You should know. The lines between Westchester and NYC are City Line or County Line, in this case both
There you go splitting hairs once again. Is that what you Hawaiians do, split hairs because you get bored out there? Come on., I was being facetious by calling it a border, though my relatives in Nassau County use the term when describing the line between Queens and their home turf. But since the hairs are now all split I'll take your criticism under advisement. Ever thought of going to work for Al Gore? You might be two peas in a pod, old buddy. Ooops I slipped up again and brought in politics. I'm sure I'll here of it. By the way, those jokes I've been getting at my E-Mail address are hilarious. I'm printing them for my use. I should get a pack of laughs at parties with those.
All you need now is a canned rim shot button....-)
The TA came into being in 1953, so they were very much overseeing things by the time the Rockaway line opened.
The #1 train at 242nd, is over a mile from the county line. Almost the same distance for the #4.
The White Plains Road line is just about right on the county line. I believe the Dyre Avenue line is pretty darn close too.
The #6 line, I'd say is the farthest, way down below Pelham Parkway.
Dyre Avenue is the closest - about 600 feet or so. There is a fence at the county line, visible from the platform - at least there was when I was last there (1998).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
w225 is close to the bronx/manhattan "county" border...
Hello. I am a Railfan from New York City .I enjoy riding New York's best Commuter RailRoad, the Long Island Railroad. Anyway, I was wondering, How does an Engineer work 4 Amtrak? I mean, How do they do your hours? Do they make u work 5 days a week and come home weekends? Also, If u were the son or Daughter of an Amtrak Engineer, how often would you C ur Father or Mother? Is it worth it Working for Amtrak? Also one final question. My last experience with Amtrak was when I rode in a car to Virginia to Take the Auto Train number 53 to Sanford Florida. That was the First time I ever saw a P32-DM Genesis B4 in My life. If Amtrak brought alot of Genesis Locomotives, What did they do with the F40PH's? Also The Train left Virginia with 2 Crew in the Locomotive. One Engineer and a Brakeman. The Train left at 8:00 and then stopped in North Carolina for a Crew Change. How did the Crew members go to the bathroom? Please Email me your Response or Post one in the Room. Email is E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com Thank you. By the way New York City Railfans today is MTA's 32nd B-Day!
Well, I'm not (nor ever have been) a railroad employee, but I can answer two of your questions, in no particular order:
First, most modern diesel road locomotives have a bathroom in them, and I'm sure Amtrak's are no exception to that general rule. I can't say for certain, but I suspect that all road locomotives purchased new by Amtrak have had one.
Second, Amtrak engineers, like engineers on all the major railroads, bid for their runs based on seniority. They are often away overnight, sometimes longer. Some engineers on the NEC, I would assume, are able to obtain runs that bring them home every night - NYP to Washington DC and return.
You also asked if it was worth it to work for Amtrak. To that I will say that, like every job, there are tradeoffs. I'll speak from my own experience in that regard. I have often worked long hours, partially because I was dedicated to my job, part of the time because I also had a business to run in addition to my regular job, and now because my job requires me to be on call 24x7. However, I have never wanted to have a job where I didn't come home to my family every night. In January of 1996 I took a temporary assignment in New Jersey, leaving my family in North Carolina for what I thought would be three months, six months tops. Well, guess what? It's now over four years later and I'm still here. "Temporary" became permanent in late 1997 and my wife and younger son joined me here when school started in the fall of 1998. For me those years of long-distance commuting were the most miserable of my life. But not everyone feels the same way. My son-in-law is a truck driver, away from home for two or three days at a time, sometimes even longer with the new company he's working for now. He loves it - he's happy up there in the cab of his rig, and can't stand the thought of doing anything else (and believe me, he's tried and failed a couple of times). He's also a very loving and devoted husband and father who makes the most of the time he has with my daughter and their children. So you have to look at yourself and your relationship with those around you and decide "is this the type of life for me?" Only you can answer that question, and it's a hard one. Good luck!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
About the locomotives, if you only look at the numbers Amtrak had ~210 F40's and it has bought ~163 P40/P42 replacements. Given that Amtrak prefers to run its trains with two locomotives (ie what used to be 2 F40's is now 2 P40's) you can see how there would be a locomotive gap. From what I have seen, Amtrak has eliminated at about half of its F40 fleet already and the rest will go once more new F59's and AEM-7's become available, but also remember that Amtrak is expanding its service so you never know.
Trains Magazine a few issues back had a complete roster of the Amtrak F40s and where they are now. I'll take a look at it again and give you a summary of what's in it. Two of the F40s were bought by the MTA and painted in Metro-North colors for west of Hudson service. I saw one of these at Hoboken a few days ago.
Railfan also ran a roster in the last issue. 52 or 53 (I lost count) are still in active passenger service on Amtrak as of December 1999, most on the NEC. Three more are in work service; the remainder have either been stored, converted to cab-baggage, scrapped, or leased to other railroads. Only two are listed as having been sold, units 363 and 379, now Tri-Rail 810 and 811. Units 370 and 382 show as being leased to NJ Transit; perhaps those are the units you have seen at Hoboken for the Port Jervis line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The engine I saw at Hoboken was in Metro-North colors. I'll see if I can find out more about it.
A couple of days ago Amtrak announced it was taking about 45 locomotives out of storage for new services. I assume that those would have to be F40s.
Probably. That's about the total of what they have stored - the rest are "retired" or "scrapped", according to the Railfan roster (other than those leased or converted, as I mentioned in my earlier post).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why hasn't the M train returned to the Brighton Beach local, is it because of the Manhattan Bridge?
I remember when I was little about 5 living on Ocean Ave, getting on the M train sometimes the D to Coney Island with my mother at the Church Ave station.... It looks funny now that the D isn't the Brighton Exp anymore.
Frank D
Yes. The Manhattan Bridge caused the reroute which has been this way for a while now and will stay this way permanantly. See the MannyB FAQ for more info.
Actually, termination of the M line running along the Brighton line had nothing to do with the Manhattan Bridge project, even though it coincided with the original AB track closure in 1986. It was removed because the entire Brighton line was undergoing massive repairs and the express tracks were shut down. I would assume it was not returned because the M is a fairly useless line, and the Q train made a much more attractive compliment to the D.
IIRC, the M was extended to Coney Island via the Brighton line in 1973 and became the Brighton local when the QJ was permanently cut back to Broad St. and renamed the J. Back then, the QB was still a rush hour, peak direction-only service.
True, the M was the Brighton local from Jan 1973 to April 1986. A total waste. I remember watching Manhattan bound M trains in the morning fill to capacity stopping at local stations, then completely emptying at express stops so all those people could catch the D. The Q back then ran only for about an hour, every 10 minutes.
Of course, if all those riders were headed for midtown Manhattan, it made sense. I guess they didn't want to wait for a QB or its Q successor.
Watch it, Frank D. or you will have Brighton #1Express Bob all over your case for saying something negative about the D train.
Sea Beach,
I try not to step on the Brighton line, but I think the M could bring back significance to the Brighton line. As it stands today people that live in the Metropolitan Ave areas, have to transfer in Manhattan at Essex st to the F or keep riding and cathc the B. That doesn't make much sense. I can see if the were running the M to coney Island on the B line, and run it local while the B make express stops from Pacific Street to Coney Island peak direction. If not return it to the Brighton line.
Frank D
All the M would do for the Brighton line is further congest it. M service on the Brighton line would neccesitate a cut in D and Q service, which is OUT of the question. The bottleneck between Atlantic and Dekalb would be monumental.
The M would do best if it was rerouted to 95th St.
The M is extremely obselete. It should simply run from Metropolitan to Broad weekdays and Myrtle all other times. Move the Q over to Broadway via the tunnel and make express stops after Canal and then run to Queensbridge. That way, 4th Avenue and Brighton each have at least 1 6th Ave and 1 Broadway service.
not a bad idea. However, the Montague St. tunnel would be severly congested, considering the Q runs on 6 minute headways, and the M on 8.5 minute headways. But it would allow an increase in both B service (compensating for the loss of the M) and D service.
And of course, what do you do with 57th/6th Ave. if the Q is on Bway?
Didn't think of that. V train, I guess. Queensbridge to 2nd Avenue or something like that.
Thats right New York City Railfans. On March 1st 1968, MTA was Created. Today is MTA's 32nd B-Day. Shouts to All Railfans in New York City Reppin' MTA 2 the fullest. MTA till I die!!!!
Let's celebrate by dissolving the MTA and its operating agencies: The Southeast Queens vans would take over Long Island Bus; Green Bus Lines would run Metro-North; and the subway system would be converted to homeless shelters!
the subway system would be converted to homeless shelters
I thought it already was.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
03/01/2000
Maybe we can put 32 candles on top of an R-68, throw the controller into multiple and see if candles blow out!
Bill Newkirk
Fat Chance!!!!!
Bill, That's was good, thanks for the smile that came to my face so early in the AM.
Mr t__:^)
The February 2000 edition of The Map is now in circulation.
The only change that I was able to decern was on the panel entitled
About The Map". The background on the December 1999 edition was gray and the background color on the February edition is a light purple.
Hmmm, it's time to write a letter to NYCTA to get these maps.
Chaohwa
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, its time to get to work collecting 600 copies of these things.
Wow! Are you going to sell them at eBay 30 years later? @_@
Chaohwa
Note: @_@ means eyes wide open!
if Ebay survives...
B"H
Anyone know where to get a PDF file of it?
So, I guess this means no change in the secondary names, right?
I was hoping that some would be restored, based on the fact that the map on the MTA site has resumed using a few of them.
Ferdinand Cesarano
If the only change is the date of issuance, why bother printing it at all? Did they just run out of the supply in stock? If that's the reason, they should have just printed some more of the last edition.
Mark Green and Claire Shulman continue to press the MTA about LIRR NYC service. From this week's Times Ledger in Eastern Queens:
By Philip Newman
Queens Borough President Claire Shulman assailed Long Island Rail Road service within Queens as "appalling but not surprising" and Public Advocate Mark Green said it was time for an end to what he called the LIRR’s "premium prices for New York City residents."
Green also suggested that protracted and tortuous commutes such as that of a Queens Village woman who spends 90 minutes getting to work would not be necessary if transit reforms he advocates became reality.
"Not much has changed in the past decade," said Shulman. "The LIRR apparently still feels that the purpose of the tracks in Queens is to transport commuters from Manhattan to Nassau and Suffolk counties."
She said "the condition of the St. Albans station and service in the borough is appalling but not surprising."
Gaping holes in the platform of the dilapidated LIRR station at St. Albans have pose a safety hazard.
Green recently issued a report that said thousands of Queens commuters avoid LIRR trains even when they run near their homes because of high fares and infrequent service.
Thus, thousands of commuters, particularly in southeast Queens, which is not well-served by the subway system, take crowded buses and make transfers to subway lines far from their homes in uncomfortable and time-consuming journeys.
The report also said Queens riders do not get discount fares when traveling from Queens into Nassau County, the way Bronx riders do when traveling to Westchester County on Metro-North trains. Green has also called for cheaper fares within Queens. For example, it now costs $5.50 one-way to take the LIRR from Woodside to Main Street, Flushing.
LIRR riders get a discount when they travel between Nassau and Suffolk counties or within either county.
Shulman used her State of the Borough address in January to call for improved LIRR service in Queens, including reopening of the Elmhurst station. She had previously called for the LIRR to reopen the Union Hall station in Jamaica near York College and for building new stations in Hunters Point and Long Island City.
Shulman said it was an old story.
"The abandonment of Queens by the LIRR began more than 30 years ago," Shulman wrote to LIRR President Charles Hoppe in 1991.
The letter was included in a "Stations of Shame" report in which Shulman cited the closing of 14 LIRR stations in Queens, charging that many of the deserted stations became trash dumping grounds and hangouts for youths.
"How can we be smarter about taking advantage of the transit and transportation system we already have, smarter about expanding it and smarter about making lives of New Yorkers easier, safer, calmer, no matter how they are traveling?" Green asked n a speech to the New York University Center for Transportation Policy and Management Tuesday.
"If we do our job right, Laurice Bembry, a Queens Village resident who works as an account representative at New York Hospital, will no longer take a 90-minute trip home via the 6, the F and the Q85 lines," Green said. "Instead, she will use her MetroCard to take the Long Island Rail Road - perhaps renamed, more appropriately, the City and Long Island Rail Road - cutting 60 minutes on every trip."
Green called for an end to "the premium prices the Long Island Rail Road charges New York City residents, where city residents pay three times the price for the same service."
He also said his office had sought to end the government monopoly that provides non-competitive franchises and public subsidies to so-called ‘private" bus lines in Brooklyn, the Bronx and Queens.
"Competition or an MTA takeover would lead to better service," Green said.
Joseph Rappaport, transit adviser for the public advocate, said one problem might be that there is no one from New York City sitting on LIRR committees although the city provides $69 million annually for the LIRR and Metro-North commuter lines.
Assemblyman William Scarborough (D-St.Albans) said it was time for the LIRR to look at fares within Queens in particular to "give a more equitable situation to the people of the borough."
"It is disturbing to discover how Queens people are being short-changed in this way," Scarborough said. "A reduction in fares and greater frequency of service would relieve the overcrowding on buses and cut the time people spend traveling."
The Metropolitan Transportation Authority, of which the Long Island Rail Road is a part, did not respond to a request for comment.
---------------------------------------------------
While the sorry condition of several LIRR Queens stations is well known, the part about a $5.50 fare between Woodside and Main St. is pretty funny. $5.50 is too high, but you can walk upstairs and board a redbird for $1.50 and change to a Northern Blvd. bus for points east for no extra charge...
www.forgotten-ny.com
(Mark Green called for an end to the bus monopolies)
Does that mean he is in favor of more private vans? School vouchers? Allowing new supermarkets in poor neighborhoods without five years of lawsuits and red tape. It would be nice if Mark Green were really against monopolies. Mr. T take the hint, he just wants a contribution to his campaign.
(Off peak discounts for Queens to Nassau Commuters)
I'm sure Nassau would be in favor. I was told by a member of the Long Island Planning Commission that they love city to suburb commuters because they allow low-wage jobs to be filled without having the moderate income workers actually live in Nassau, where they would be "inappropriate." And they prefer mass transit for these workers, so they don't take up space on Nassau's roads.
But the LIRR doesn't want city to suburb commuters because of the two-track problem others have mentioned. Taking people out isn't a way to fill empty seats on trains heading north to start their second run in. It is a special trip that limits express service.
[The letter was included in a "Stations of Shame" report in which Shulman cited the closing of 14 LIRR stations in Queens, charging that many of the deserted stations became trash dumping grounds and hangouts for youths.]
She must be going back decades to come up with 14 closed Queens stations. Only by including the Rockaway line can you come up with that number - and those stations were closed in the early 1960's. And as far as the closed stations being dumping grounds and hang-out places is concerned, that's rather hard to reconcile with the fact that almost all of the closed stations have been obliterated. Somehow, I don't think anyone's hanging around in the Rego Park or Springfield Gardens stations :-)
Getting back to the main part of the complaint, I get the impression that Green and Shulman didn't manage to get their facts entirely straight (and not just about the closed stations). The Queens stations along the Port Washington line have more-than-adequate service, as do Woodside, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens and of course Jamaica. The SE Queens stations don't have quite as many trains, but they do have enough service to make commuting feasible and compare favorably to many Nassau and Suffolk stations. High fares? Well, I can't deny that the fares aren't cheap, but it's best to look at the LIRR in much of Queens as being the high-priced option. You want reasonably quick service at a rather high price, take the LIRR. If you want lower fares, though with a slower trip, take the subway/bus combo. Most Nassau and all Suffolk riders have no such option - it's the LIRR or nothing.
Realistically speaking the LIRR is just not able to serve large numbers of Queens commuters. The LIRR in Queens was constructed years ago, mostly before the consolidation of NYC in 1898, when Queens was a rural community. Adding more Queens service would only add time to the commute of Nassau and Suffolk commuters, the LIRR's prime market. Add enough time to their commute and they will drive into NYC - right through Queens on the LIE. Mark Green needs 'crusades' like this to turn himself into some kind of hero.
>>>Adding more Queens service would only add time to the commute of Nassau
and Suffolk commuters, the LIRR's prime market. Add enough time to their commute and they will drive
into NYC - right through Queens on the LIE. Mark Green needs 'crusades' like this to turn himself into
some kind of hero. <<<
I would agree with you about the LIRR being primarily a rush hour mover of Nassau and Suffolk commuters. However, I would hold the LIRR to at least the pretense of serving Queens customers; that would mean fixing the crumbling, and occasionally dangerous, platforms and staircases at stations like St. Albans and Broadway. Hollis and St. Albans commuters, few though they may be, deserve at least that much.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Station maintenance is paid for by the localities involved. Every year, Nassau and Suffolk Counties receive bills from the LIRR. When Suffolk refused to pay for maintenance of some stations several decades ago, the LIRR tore the station houses down. The LIRR has also been closing stations completely where there is no other mass transit. In the last 20 years or so they have closed these stations near me: Republic, South Farmingdale, Deer Park, Bellport and Blue Point.
NYC pays for station maintenance on City stations. I imagine if they were paying for St. Albans, etc., and the maintenance wasn't done, we'd be hearing from Mark Green about it.
I'm really tired of Mark Green's game playing. He's going to be some great Mayor.
Yeah, the problem is that if Giuliani actually beats the Most Intelligent Female In The World Today, Grammy® Winner, One Of The Top Ten Lawyers In The Country, All Around Great Gal and Fifth Beatle, HRC, we get the insufferable Mark Green in City Hall for a year and maybe beyond.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Lots of people who can't stand Hillary will be voting for her anyway to avoid Mark Green. But I've heard that if Giuliani resigns by a certain date, there is a special election in November. If that's the case, it should be a issue in the Senate campaign.
I am a Giuliani hater who hopes that he wins so that we get a mayor who is not so hostile to the the working class and to the terrorized poor, and not nearly so ready to defend egregious police thugs.
Is Green grandstanding? Sure, but, more power to him. He's drawing attention to a longstanding serious issue -- lousy, ripoff LIRR service in Queens. If eastern Queens isn't going to get subways (and it isn't), then the existing LIRR stations ought to be served much more frequently and for lower fares.
I grew up in Queens Village, and I can tell you that the lack of subways there (and in all of eastern Queens) promotes a car-based culture that renders the area virtually indisinguishable from Nassau County.
This results in a drain on the City's economy, because the people in that area are inclined to drive to Nassau to do all their shopping. This, as opposed to being able to hop on a subway or a reliable LIRR train to go a shorter distance to Jamaica, where their purchases would help OUR economy instead of that of some suburban county. (And where they would spend *a lot* less money on whatever they were buying than they would out in Nassau.)
People from eastern Queens virtually never go to Jamaica, or, for that matter, to Flushing, Ridgewood, or to any of Queens's commercial hubs, since this would require driving and (worse) parking in those areas. So, the people there wind up being much more familiar with Glen Oaks, Roosevelt Field, Valley Stream, etc., than they are with the commercial centers which are in their own City and borough.
We need steps aimed at combating this phenomenon and reversing this trend, so Green gets a big "way to go" for me on this one!
Ferdinand Cesarano
(Queens residents shop in Nassau)
Eastern Queens residents aren't going to go to the supermarket on the LIRR. We tried to get more supermarkets and other stores in Queens, but the Queens politicians fought us every step of the way.
I wasn't really talking about supermarkets. I was referring more to department stores, as well as to smaller shops that sell clothing, furniture, or electronics.
And, anyway, lack of stores isn't the problem. We don't really need more stores in Queens; what we need are adequate means of reaching the existing stores without having to drive and park.
Ferdinand Cesarano
[Is Green grandstanding? Sure, but, more power to him. He's drawing attention to a longstanding serious issue -- lousy, ripoff LIRR service in Queens.]
I agree - Green IS grandstanding and the LIRR should lower its fares and increase service for rides within Brooklyn and Queens. The problem is fare control - how do you check which passengers have tickets just for interboro travel? How many times will the conductors have to check everyone's tickets? Or should the LIRR run special local rapid transit trains, as they did in the distant past from LIC and Flatbush Ave. through Queens to (coincidentally) Queens Village? These services were discontinued after the IND Fulton and Queens Blvd. lines took away most of their passengers.
[And, anyway, lack of stores isn't the problem. We don't really need more stores in Queens; what we need are adequate means of reaching the existing stores without having to drive and park.]
Well, if it weren't for the NIMBYs in Glendale and Middle Village, etc. you could have had subway service today on the LIC branch. They shot that idea down years ago. You could get off at Fresh Pond and it would be just a short walk to the Metropolitan Ave. Mall. Also, they've been talking for over 20 years about having subway service take over the LIRR's Altantic branch through Locust Manor and Laurelton.
Don't just blame Giuliani.
>>>And, anyway, lack of stores isn't the problem. We don't really need more stores in Queens; what
we need are adequate means of reaching the existing stores without having to drive and park<<<
That's plain to subtalkers. But talk about building subways and LIRR branches in eastern Queens will get you shouted down at community board meetings.
People just wanna drive.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes, but we're not really talking about building anything new, just about providing better service to the existing stations. That, and reopening recently-closed stations which are still standing.
These are things which would not require constructing any new subway or rail lines (as welcome as that would be from my own point of view).
Ferdinand Cesarano
Tell that to the residents along the Rockaway line. They don't care if it's still there. They don't want more trains. New track. Old track. Makes no difference.
[I grew up in Queens Village, and I can tell you that the lack of subways there (and in all of eastern Queens) promotes a car-based culture that renders the area virtually indisinguishable from Nassau
County.
This results in a drain on the City's economy, because the people in that area are inclined to drive to Nassau to do all their shopping. This, as opposed to being able to hop on a subway or a reliable
LIRR train to go a shorter distance to Jamaica, where their purchases would help OUR economy instead of that of some suburban county. (And where they would spend *a lot* less money on whatever they were buying than they would out in Nassau.)]
Saying that Eastern Queens' car-based culture is something bad is jumping to a rather unwarranted conclusion. Population densities in many parts of Eastern Queens are not too different from what you'll see in parts of Nassau and in other close-in suburbs. These densities may not be enough to support extensive transit services, at least not without incurring horrendous farebox recovery ratios. But these densities might be more suitable for motor vehicle usage, as you'll see in Nassau. As much as I like the subway, and support quality transit service in general, I do not promote it as a "one size fits all" solution that's workable everywhere.
As far as the shopping in Nassau County is concerned, given NYC's bias against large stores, you can hardly expect anything else. Queens residents who drive to the suburbs to shop usually will be able to shop at places offering a much wider variety of merchandise at better prices. You can hardly blame them for that. At least they have options, something that car-less city residents do not.
"Queens residents who drive to the suburbs to shop usually will be able to shop at places offering a much wider variety of merchandise at better prices."
I would dispute that. The only benefit that stores in Nassau County offer Queens residents relative to Queens stores is parking availability, not better prices. I think you're going to pay plenty more for just about everything at Nassau shopping areas than you would pay for those same items in equivalent places in Queens.
Furthermore, is there anywhere in the whole NYC area where you can get such diversity of quality merchandise for so little money as Jamaica? I doubt it. It is just a great place to shop.
But, trying to drive and park around there is maddening.
So, unless the unlikely Archer Avenue line extention ever takes place, New York City is doomed to experience a certain amount of economic drain, and eastern Queens residents will continue to pay more than they need to for all kinds of items.
Ferdinand Cesarano
["Queens residents who drive to the suburbs to shop usually will be able to shop at places offering a much wider variety of
merchandise at better prices."
I would dispute that. The only benefit that stores in Nassau County offer Queens residents relative to Queens stores is parking
availability, not better prices. I think you're going to pay plenty more for just about everything at Nassau shopping areas than you would pay for those same items in equivalent places in Queens.
Furthermore, is there anywhere in the whole NYC area where you can get such diversity of quality merchandise for so little money as Jamaica? I doubt it. It is just a great place to shop.]
How so? Nassau has a wide variety of discount shopping emporia - a Wal-Wart, a couple Targets, several K-Marts, a couple soon-to-open Kohl's, four full-scale malls, supermarkets galore, and so on. That sheer volume produces fierce competition that almost invariably lowers prices. Queens has far less - no Wal-Marts, one Target (IIRC quite remote from transit), one or two K-Marts - you get the picture. And NYC's supermarkets are the laughingstock of the nation for their atrocious quality and sky-high prices.
Most Nassua and Suffolk supermarkets also give double coupons , not so in Queens.
You're right -- Queens does not have many of those major chain stores. What we do have, however, is an abundance of smaller stores with names that mean nothing to anyone outside the store's neighborhood.
For example, in Jamaica, there are wonderful discount clothing/linen places called Alexus, C.H. Martin, ABC, and several others with names that I cannot even remember. Also, in Woodhaven near the Brooklyn border, there is this great store called Liberty, and another one called Dee Dee's. These are stores which I contend will beat your Long Island giganto-store on prices virtually every time.
Again, I am not talking here about groceries, but primarily about clothes.
Additionally, if you want to buy electronics, nothing beats the ability to check out literally a dozen different stores along Jamaica Avenue near Merrick Blvd before buying. Doing this, you are very likely to find a good listed price on something you like, and, even if you can't, you'll probably be able to haggle.
So, forget Wal-Mart and Target. I'll put the no-name shops of Jamaica against them any time.
Ferdinand Cesarano
(What we do have is an abundance of small stores)
Wrong again. Relative to its population and income, Queens has fewer small stores than Nassau, or the national average. Queens people just spend their money in Nassau, period.
Fernando, I agree with everything you said EXCEPT: Glen Oaks and its large shopping center with new K-Mart ARE in Queens. Unfortunately, it's only served by the Q46 and is nowhere near any subway or LIRR station.
A Price Club, Target, Circuit City, R-US's, multiplex and many other businesses have opened on the Whitestone-College Point border- er, boundary- which has caused horrible traffic congestion, so it is attracting people to shop within city limits. The TA did make one token gesture, creating a 'new' route Q20A that passes a lot of the new development.
It probably doesn't help that there's a separate parking lot for each large store a la the Westbury mess, which forces people to drive from one lot to another for fear of being towed if they try to walk! (Of course, people may also reluctant to take a large item home on public transportation.)
The Q20A has attracted a lot of ridership, but it seems to be mostly the people who work at these enterprises- there's tremendous crowding every eight hours when shifts change.
(College Point development has attracted shoppers)
From all over Queens. The problem is that every retail development has to go through a huge review process than takes $millions and years. The only thing that can get through the process is a mega-development, so you get concentrated development instead of spread out development. If you like shopping at warehouse clubs, for example, there are only two in all of Queens, one at College Point.
Even so, anywhere else they would have built a flyover off the expressway into the College Point industrial park. In NYC, you either stop the stores because of an alleged traffic problem, or allow the store without improvements. You never spend 50 cents to accomodate the development.
Honestly, it wouldn't necessarilly slow down Nassau service to provide more in city service. They have people to plan that sort of thing and figure it out. I don't know about this, because I have no track maps for the LIRR(where do you get those anyway?), but how many places are availible to turn around trains?
It would absolutely slow down service from Nassau and Suffolk to make additional stops in Queens. Each stop adds a little bit more than 90 seconds to the trip. So adding stops at Locust Manor, Laurelton and Rosedale (for example) adds about 4-5 minutes to any trip -- probably an increase in travel time of about 10% for most LIRR commuters.
The thing I'm missing here is -- Where is the demand for more LIRR service in Queens (other than from a few SubTalkers and Mark Green)? Unless you're going to significantly reduce the fare, there is none. As others have noted, the fare within Queens for a monthly pass is either $75 or $117 -- not very different from the monthly Metrocard options (63/120).
There is only one Queens station which does not have regular service -- St. Albans. As has been discussed here many times, the passenger volume at St. Albans warrants closing the station, not increasing service (took the 8:34 PM to Babylon last night -- a 10 car train probably carrying about 750-1000 people; 4 passengers got off at St. Albans, none got on). (And there are no holes in the active platform at St. Albans -- the holes are in an abandoned portion of the platform which has been long sealed off from passenger access).
All of the other stations get service that is in line with what the other stations along their branch get.
The advent of the unlimited Metrocard and especially the free bus/subway transfers has reduced the need for LIRR service in Queens -- the people have spoken with their feet.
Chuck
(Where is the demand for LIRR service in Queens)
The Port Washington Line is pretty heavily used. It could use more trains, and longer platforms. If the Whitestone Branch, or the line that went through the Kissena Corridor were still there, I'd expect them to get riders.
Lots of Howard Beach riders were willing to pay extra for the train to the plane when it was running, just for fewer stops and a feeling of exclusivity. If the Rockaway line were re-opened with several stations, I'd expect lots of ridership. You'd even get some park-n-ride at Aquadect if it were available.
Southeast Queens is dominated by people who work for the government, and work outside Manhattan, but that could change. There are not enough stations, or enough service, to pull people in.
I hear that the Auburndale platform will be lengthened. Murray Hill should be lengthened, but it's in an open cut and has nowhere to go. Flushing Main Street desperately needs a crossover a la Little Neck and Port Washington.
It may have been shortsighted to close the Whitestone Branch, but if you don't use it you lose it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[It may have been shortsighted to close the Whitestone Branch, but if you don't use it you lose it.]
Why was the Whitestone Branch closed? IIRC, it got the ax in 1932. That was well before car ownership and suburbanization began to drain away transit ridership, and moreover it was a time when transit was still in the expansion mode - consider that the first phase of the IND opened at just about the same time. Could the reason be that the Depression was reducing ridership?
The Whitestone Branch terminated in LIC. Even though the line was electrified in 1928, they did not send trains into Penn Station. Nobody ever claimed the LIRR was innovative after the PRR buyout.
>>>The Whitestone Branch terminated in LIC. Even though the line was electrified in 1928, they did not
send trains into Penn Station. Nobody ever claimed the LIRR was innovative after the PRR buyout.<<<
The Whitestone diverged from the present Port Wash. branch at a point just east of the Big Shea. In fact if you are riding the PW branch you can still see an extant portion of the old Whitestone trackage trailing off into a marshy area.
The Whitestone continued north into Flushing. Its first stop was Flushing Bridge Street (that's why we have a Flushing Main Street station, when a mere Flushing ought to do), then cut northwest into College Point, and then turned NE and then E, terminating where the Waldbaums at 10th Avenue and 154th is now.
An unusual quirk of the Whitestone was that the third rail was on the passenger side of the platform! Don't slip while getting on, whatever you did.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Part of the trench that the Cross Island Parkway was built into between the Whitestone Bridge/Expressway and Utopia Parkway (1940) was originally the right-of-way of this branch. The Whitestone station was around the 150th Street overpass. The railroad then proceeded east to past Clintonville Street and turned north through what is now the Whitestone Shopping Center (built 1955 or thereabouts). No other evidence of this line can be found any longer, although some of the street patterns in parts of Whitestone developed before WWII suggest where it might have gone through.
Having grown up in Whitestone, I regret the demise of this line. It would have spared me the agony of waiting an hour on weekends for the Q16 to and from Flushing.
It's well known that the Gowanus Expressway was built as a Parkway on the elevated line that ran along 3rd Avenue. I can't think of any other defunct rail lines that became highways, can you?
[It's well known that the Gowanus Expressway was built as a Parkway on the elevated line that ran along 3rd Avenue. I can't think of any other defunct rail lines that became highways, can you?]
If we can go outside the city limits, there's a roadway called (IIRC) Heathcote Bypass in Scarsdale that was built on the former NYW&B right of way. Its grade and alignment is quite different from any of the surrounding streets.
I'm certain there are plenty.
Part of the NYC RR Putnam Division was used as a relocation for the Taconic State Pkwy. Part of the old CNJ RR in Bayonne is now NJ Route 169 (I believe). The old PRR in Jersey City is now Christopher Columbus Boulevard. A driveway into Garden State Plaza was the Public Service Hudson River trolley line. The list is endless. Of course the ultimate is the Pennsylvania Turnpike, which was built on the grade of the never-completed South Pennsylvania RR. Also parts of NY State Route 17 were built on the O&W RR roadbed.
Here in Boston the Southeast Expressway and Burgin Parkway were built on ex-New Haven rights of way. This actually obliterated the Granite Railway, America's first successful railroad, built in 1826. Few traces remain. But they are there, if you know where to look.
03/03/2000
Conrad,
I was told a few years ago that there was some old concrete bridge abutments from the old O & W between the Route 17 divided roadways. Did you hear anything on this?
Bill Newkirk
I forget where, but somewhere near Rockland Co., there is an O & W station converted to a restaurant, with a tunnel in back.
Bob...The old Mechanicstown station outside of Middletown, NY(the O & W's headquarters) is now the "Rusty Nail" restaurant. I believe it was moved to this location from the original ROW just down the road...I believe it's Denning Rd., just around the corner from the old Orange Plaza.
Carl M.
West Side Highway.
03/04/2000
Howard Fein,
There is at least one remnant of the LIRR Whitestone Branch I can account for. Several months ago while dining with Don Harold, Don says "see that parking lot (adjacent to White house Inn restaurant), that's the old Whitestone Branch".
Back in the early 1980's (yikes! 20 years ago), with the help of an old xeroxed map, I saw some unbuilt, tree covered sections of ROW between some houses. Of course they may been developed in 20 years. But check out the White House Inn lot. Also check out the W.H. Inn's minestrone soup! It's to die for!!
Bill Newkirk
[The Whitestone station was around the 150th Street overpass. The railroad then proceeded east to past Clintonville Street and turned north through what is now the Whitestone Shopping Center (built 1955
or thereabouts).]
Howard, Is there anything left that marks the route ... I take the Cross-Island in every day & haven't seen anything obvious yet. It would seem that other then the cut everything was re-done when the Cross-Island was put in.
Mr t__:^)
When driving north on the Van Wyck shortly after crossing under Roosevelt Ave, one can see in the Flushing Creek some wooden bridge pilings. Are these left over from the Whitestone Branch bridge?
Also there is a stone and sand dealer on the east bank of the creek, near the Whitestone Expwy overpass, that has a track in the yard at the water's edge. Until recently a railway crane was used to unload barges there. Is that track a remnant of the Whitestone Branch? The crane looked old enough to have been delivered on its own wheels by the LIRR in the '30s (though probably with the boom disassembled).
Also was the branch removed all at once, or was it abandoned and then gradually removed? Did the trestle survive beyond the abandonment?
Lack of foresight on the part of government strikes again. Wouldn't it be nice to have a rail siding at that new NY Times printing plant (and the post office) in College Point? Not to mention the "big box" retail going in near the old Flushing Airport........
[The thing I'm missing here is -- Where is the demand for more LIRR service in Queens (other than from a few SubTalkers and Mark Green)? Unless you're going to significantly reduce the fare, there
is none. As others have noted, the fare within Queens for a monthly pass is either $75 or $117 -- not very different from the monthly Metrocard options (63/120).
The advent of the unlimited Metrocard and especially the free bus/subway transfers has reduced the need for LIRR service in Queens -- the people have spoken with their feet.]
There is no such demand. Mark Green, as usual, is grandstanding.
Unless you're going to significantly reduce the fare, there is none
I think that was part of Mr. Green's argument - the fare should be reduced to the same level enjoyed by Nassau and Suffolk riders.
[I think that was part of Mr. Green's argument - the fare should be reduced to the same level enjoyed by Nassau and Suffolk riders.]
As a Suffolk rider, in Fare Zone 11, I find it very difficult indeed to "enjoy" the $214 I shell out each month.
As a Suffolk rider, in Fare Zone 11, I find it very difficult indeed to "enjoy" the $214 I shell out each month.
A typical zone 11 station like Patchogue is 56 miles form Penn Sta. A typical zone 3 station like Douglaston is 14 miles from Penn Sta. A monthly ticket for Douglaston is $117. If you were being charged on a mileage basis, as you would have been prior to the NYS takeover, you should be charged $468. Your subsidy comes to $254 compared to a NYC resident.
The ICC used to set a maximum per mile charge for railroads railroads to prevent such obvious abuses.
In pricing for a commuter railroad, setting fares on a "per mile" basis is an oversimplification. The value of the commuter railroad is in its terminal -- in this case Penn Station. So there's a "capacity charge" that everyone pays for the opportunity to use Penn Station and then you can apply a "mileage charge" in consideration for the time you're on the train.
Based on the LIRR's monthly fares, the "capacity charge" for Penn Station is about $100. The per mile charge is about $2 per mile. Using these factors gets you the following fares for some sample stations:
Station (Zone/formula fare/actual fare)
Jamaica (3/122/117)
Lynbrook (4/140/135)
Bellmore (7/156/154)
Huntington (9/174/181)
Oakdale (10/198/200)
Patchogue (11/212/214)
In reality, the capacity charge is not only for using Penn, but also includes the fixed costs of operating the railroad. This is why a monthly ticket between just about any two points is going to be more than the "per mile" charge might indicate.
One concession that would seem to be fair to Queens riders would be to make the stations in Western Queens Zone 2 stations rather than Zone 1 for the purpose of intra-Queens travel. I suspect that this would cause some fare collection logistical nightmares for the LIRR, though.
Chuck
[In pricing for a commuter railroad, setting fares on a "per mile" basis is an oversimplification. The value of the commuter railroad
is in its terminal -- in this case Penn Station. So there's a "capacity charge" that everyone pays for the opportunity to use Penn
Station and then you can apply a "mileage charge" in consideration for the time you're on the train.
Based on the LIRR's monthly fares, the "capacity charge" for Penn Station is about $100. The per mile charge is about $2 per mile. Using these factors gets you the following fares for some sample stations:
Station (Zone/formula fare/actual fare)
Jamaica (3/122/117)
Lynbrook (4/140/135)
Bellmore (7/156/154)
Huntington (9/174/181)
Oakdale (10/198/200)
Patchogue (11/212/214)
In reality, the capacity charge is not only for using Penn, but also includes the fixed costs of operating the railroad. This is why a
monthly ticket between just about any two points is going to be more than the "per mile" charge might indicate.]
Thanks for the interesting analysis. Hopefully, it'll silence some of the Queens-centrics who decry the "terrific deals" Suffolk commuters supposedly get.
What has been described is the mechanism for discriminating against NYC residents. The "formula" is the MTA's own design. Assuming an average of 25 round trips per month this amounts to $1 per station per ride. Such station charges were allowed by the ICC, when a railroad was charged for using another railroad's station. The PRR received 5 cents for every LIRR passenger using Penn Sta which was passed along in the ticket price. However, tickets to the LIRR's own terminal stations did not include this charge.
There are two problems with this cost accounting. First, it does not relate to actual costs incurred by the LIRR. Any costs by the LIRR to Amtrak for Penn Sta use are not reflected in ticket price. The cost is the same for a ticket from any location beyond zone 1 to Woodside, Brooklyn or Penn Sta. Second, there might be some that station maintenance should be reflected in ticket price. However, the localities are assessed such costs by the MTA. Not surprisingly, the MTA feels that more than 40% of such costs should be assessed to NYC. This appears to be a classic case of double dipping.
The amount of the "capacity" charge is arbitrary. The mileage charge is fixed regardless of locality. Obviously, the fare can be made more or less discriminatory against Queens residents by raising one charge and lowering the other. As I said in an earlier post, the prospect for abuse was so great that the ICC set a maximum per mileage charge for all train trips.
The amount of the capacity charge is hardly arbitrary. It represents the fixed cost of carrying a single passenger. The capacity charge is higher for Zone 1 because of the Amtrak charges into Penn Station (I agree 110% that the LIRR should bring back Zone 1A/1B pricing to reflect the higher costs to Penn rather than Flatbush).
In some respects, LIRR pricing is similar to airline pricing. They have high costs just to run a single train. How far a person travels on that train once it's moving is pretty much inconsequential. Once you've covered your fixed costs, then the goal becomes filling up your empty seats. That's why the LIRR can offer those very low fares for intra-Long Island service but not as low for intra-Queens. There just aren't as many empty seats to fill once the trains are in Queens, and there isn't enough demand to have Queens only service (with the exception of the rush hour Great Neck to Penn runs and a single Valley Stream to Penn run).
Chuck
The amount of the capacity charge is hardly arbitrary. It represents the fixed cost of carrying a single passenger.
There are very few costs associated with a railroad that are independent of trip length. The one notable exception is charges for use of a terminal such as Penn Station. Practically every other cost is proportional to distance. ROW and rolling stock maintenance are obvious examples. Similarly the amount of rolling stock and its associated capital costs for a given level of service is proportional to the distance travelled.
The analogy to airline pricing does not fly. A turbojet consumes 1/3 its fuel on takeoff. This yields a completely different set of economic imperatives than a train, where fuel consumption is more closely proportional to distance travelled.
Once you've covered your fixed costs, then the goal becomes filling up your empty seat. That's why the LIRR can offer those very low fares for intra-Long Island service but not as low for intra-Queens.
Filling up empty seats does not appear to be the goal. If given equal opportunity Queens residents would fill up those seats by virtue of the higher population densities.
I'm not convinced that costs are as closely correlated with trip length as you suggest. Perhaps someone who's more technically oriented could comment with more authority, but I'd guess that the number of stops, starts and door openings and closings has much more influence on maintenance costs than miles traveled (perhaps someone could compare the MDBF performance of the cars which are used on the Far Rockaway A train with similar cars on another line for some insight here).
Labor costs don't necessarily vary with distance either. Components of each crew can be short turned along the line to cover areas of highest passenger density. NJT makes extensive use of this along the NEC, and LIRR does it at Jamaica but I'm not sure if they continue the practice further east.
Re: empty seats. I was trying to say two things. First, that there aren't many empty seats which need filling once the trains get to Queens. Second, there are usually plenty of empty seats until a train gets to the last or next-to-last station before Jamaica heading westbound. Since those seats are within Nassau and Suffolk (usually) it makes sense to sell them at a discounted rate.
I agree with having a fixed cost as far as it goes. For example, I don't believe Brooklyn residents should pay more to commute to Manhattan than Manhattan residents -- the trains run through in any event.
However, while the number of people affected is low in any event, there really is no excuse for charging more to carry Queens residents within Queens than Nassau residents within Nassau. Seat capacity? Queens residents would be the ones stading in either direction. Subway option? Not for a ride from Eastern Queens to Western Queens -- many Nassau residents have a bus to subway option also.
The only excuse is the operational fare collection issue. Which is just one more reason that the LIRR should have fare control at the stations, not on the train, on a "good faith" (ie. yes you could beat the system by walking around and not swiping but if we catch you during a periodic sweep the fine will be so high it will leave you gasping) basis.
I'm with you in terms of a better intra-Queens fare. But it's an operational nightmare. It's annoying enough to have to show your ticket twice on the LIRR, but three times?
Plus, I suspect that there would still be few takers. Unless you're going between two points that are very close to an LIRR station and at a time when a train is coming, people will still choose the bus/subway option. It takes you to more locations and it's cheaper.
I know it's been beaten around before, but I just don't see the platform fare collection model being viable for the LIRR. Maybe I'm not enough of a visionary, but I don't see it as being viable.
Chuck
How about selling little tags that you can clip to your collar and which will be read automatically by scanners as you get on and off the train. The owner of each tag will have an account with the MTA and periodically replenish it. Set aside one car on each train -- the least convenient one, of course -- for passengers with old fashioned tickets or-- gasp -- cash.
If it works on the railroads, maybe they will try it on the highways and the bridges and tunnels.
That's a GREAT idea, except, how do you identify people who DON'T pay. That's the key. If you could identify those who don't pay, you could have a good faith system for those who do. In other words, your system would charge those with the tag on as they entered the train. But what if people entered the train without the tag?
Really, there is not much difference between having a tag read automatically by the train door and having a Metrocard swiped on entering the station. You still need a check.
My solution is as follows. You are required to swipe a Metrocard (or have a tag read) before entering or exiting any station other than Grand Central or Penn. When you enter or exit, you are charged a Zone 1 fare, as if you were going to or coming from Manhattan. If you then exit elsewhere, any required money is returned to your card or tag based on where you entered. This would avoid the bottleneck of fare control at the terminal.
Ripoff control could come via a variety of means. In locations where the design of the station allows it, you could have subway style fare control (ie. Babylon Line). In other stations, you could have cameras to record people hopping on or off the plaform without paying, occasional sweeps on the train to check that all Metrocards or tags had been swiped, and the posting of plainclothes "fare crimes" cops at stations where fare beating had become common. The fine -- 1/20th of a person's annual income, minimum of $1,000 for the teens. Commuter rail serves middle income areas, where you have people with incomes and fixed addresses and fines are easier to collect -- and a bigger deterrant.
Would some people beat the fare? Sure, but perhaps no more than today, and you'd save the cost of all those conductors. Heck, I've beat the fare by accident on a number of occasions: I intended to purchase a ticket on the train (station office closed) but the conductor never got to the car I was in. The additional sales from Metrocard Machines in the stations might outweight additional intentional fare beating, if any.
Sort of like the London Rapid Transit. For the system to work, the MTA would have to do major renovations of the stations. Take most open air stations on Metro North and LIRR. It would be easy for anybody to fare beat, because instead of going out the exit, they could walk to the end of the platforms and climb out there, thus never paying. Conductors as well as ticketmasters would and could never be eliminated because of their unions. Your plan sounds good on paper, but I think if this plan was to ever go into affect, it would never work. You couldn't get rid of the workers and it would tempt more people to fare beat.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
There is an obvious and simple solution requiring no construction or schedule changes: Put SE Queens back in Nassau County. Once the map is changed, they will qualify for the same lower fares as all other Nassau residents. Moreover, the LIRR will then recognize them as part of the constituency they are supposed to serve instead of as part of the population that they are trying to keep off their trains. Frankly, I'm surprised that the LIRR doesn't have a residency requirement like some of the "public" parks on Long Island.
"Moreover, the LIRR will then recognize them as part of the constituency they are supposed to serve instead of as part of the population that they are trying to keep off their trains."
What exactly is it that makes you say that the LIRR is trying to keep the people of SE Queens off their trains?
(What makes you say the LIRR is trying to keep people off the trains)
Well, the strike plan was a slap in the face, practical considerations or no. Contrast that with city policy during an LIRR strike. The city stops cleaning the streets so LIRR riders can park in its neighborhoods, and does all it can to accomodate LIRR riders on the subway.
>>>Well, the strike plan was a slap in the face, practical considerations or no. <<<
I'm still steaming over that, no matter how many times it's explained to me how impossible it would be to accommodate Queens passengers during a subway strike.
Hey, I'm a people too. Make some plans for the next potential strike!
www.forgotten-ny.com
She must be going back decades to come up with 14 closed Queens stations. Only by including the Rockaway line can you come up with that number - and those stations were closed in the early 1960's.
There is a website that keeps track of lirr station closings since 1960. Here is an extract of stations closed in Queens: Union Hall; Hillside; Bellaire; Springfield Gardens; Long Island City; Richmond Hill; Glendale; Fresh Pond; Haberman; Penny Bridge; Elmhurst; Corona and Woodhaven. That comes to 13 and does not include the following 5 more from the Rockaway Line: Rego Park; Parkside; Brooklyn Manor; Woodhaven Jct and Ozone Park.
Getting back to the main part of the complaint, I get the impression that Green and Shulman didn't manage to get their facts entirely straight (and not just about the closed stations).
It would appear that Green and Shulman got 13 out of 14 correct. That would give them 92% mark on this item - much better than the LIRR's on-time performance.
Long Island City is still open.
You are correct. However with only 7 trains per day and no weekend service, an reasonable observer might find it difficult to find a pulse.
[ Long Island City LIRR is moribund -- 7 trains a day ]
Prior to the opening of the 34th Street Ferry, it was only 4 trains a day. That's a 75% increase in service!
You can also catch a free ride on a orange stripped bus to that ferry from Queens Plaza.
Mr t__:^)
[[She must be going back decades to come up with 14 closed Queens stations. Only by including the Rockaway line can you come up with that number - and those stations were closed in the early 1960's.]
[There is a website that keeps track of lirr station closings since 1960. Here is an extract of stations closed in Queens: Union Hall; Hillside; Bellaire; Springfield Gardens; Long Island City; Richmond Hill; Glendale; Fresh Pond; Haberman; Penny Bridge; Elmhurst; Corona and Woodhaven. That comes to 13 and does not include the following 5 more from the Rockaway Line: Rego Park; Parkside; Brooklyn Manor; Woodhaven Jct and Ozone Park.]
Long Island City has not been closed. Of the 12 remaining ones, all except the five on the lower Montauk line were closed at least 20 to 25 years ago. As much as I detest LIRR management, I hardly think it's entirely fair to blame them for closing station a quarter-century ago.
The MTA seems at some point to have had this idea that the commuter railroads should not be providing competing services in the city, and the subway should not try to attract suburbanites. I remember a decade ago having an MTAer wonder out loud why the Hudson Line had stations in the Bronx. Why compete with ourself?
I think that since the commuter railroads are getting such a large share of the toll surplus anyway, they should be adding more service in the city. And the MTA should open up more park-n-ride lots, so suburban riders can drive most fo the way in and take the subway. I know several people who drive in and take the subway. Competition is good.
...Of the 12 remaining ones, all except the five on the lower Montauk line were closed at least 20 to 25 years ago....
It's my turn to nit-pick - Elmhurst was closed in 1985 - only 15 years ago. (How time flies.)
As much as I detest LIRR management, I hardly think it's entirely fair to blame them for closing station a quarter-century ago.
I think a fair departure point would be the NYS purchase in 1965. This takeover would not have been possible had not NYC, Nassau and Suffolk forgiven their claim for overdue real estate taxes from the LIRR. Both Nassau and Suffolk have received continued and improved service, whereas NYC service has deteriorated.
(Since 1965, service in Queens has deteriorated, while Nassau and Suffolk have improved service)
Service has gotten worse in Brooklyn too, on those routes served by the LIRR. As for Nassau and Suffolk, they had it good for a while, but I wouldn't want to change places with them now. Transportation, in general, has been disinvested in for 30 years. Hence the battle to see who, if anyone, will get some investment.
Why did they totally destroy Elmhurst? I was never quite sure why they closed it, I was only 4 at the time...
>>>>It's my turn to nit-pick - Elmhurst was closed in 1985 - only 15 years ago. (How time flies.) <<<
Amazing...for a station closed only 15 years ago, only the barest trace remains today...if that much.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Amazing...for a station closed only 15 years ago (Elmhurst), only the barest trace remains today...if that much.]
LIRR management seems pretty diligent about eradicating any traces of closed stations. In the recent case of Holtsville, this was taken to an extreme. All that existed at Holtsville was a small shelter like you'd see at a bus stop, sitting on a concrete pad. The shelter was removed soon after the station closed a couple of years ago. Then, about a year later, the concrete pad was jackhammered out of existence. I can't figure out why the LIRR bothered - the pad was just sitting there, not in anyone's way.
>>Then, about a year later, the concrete pad was jackhammered out of
existence. I can't figure out why the LIRR bothered - the pad was just sitting there, not in anyone's
way. <<<
Jeez, the LIRR eradicated all trace of Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman and Penny Bridge BEFORE those stops closed! I think they were imparting a subtle message there...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Strange that they left Richmond Hill.
If you want to go back to, say, 1930, I count 30 closings in Queens:
Union Hall St., Hillside, Bellaire, Springfield Gardens, Grand St., Winfield, Rego Park, Parkside, Matawok, Brooklyn Manor, Ozone Park, Elmhurst, Corona, Flushing – Bridge St., College Point, Malba, Whitestone, Whitestone Landing, Cedar Manor, Higbie Ave., Richmond Hill, Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman, Penny Bridge, Union Course, Woodhaven, Clarenceville, Morris Park, Dunton
Make that 31. I forgot there were two Woodhaven stations, one on the Flatbush Ave. line and one on the Rockaway Beach line.
Wasn't there a proposal to reopen Woodhaven?
[Wasn't there a proposal to reopen Woodhaven?]
I haven't heard of one, although it might not be an entirely bad idea.
Good idea! Nice looking station buried down there, too (beige tile with violet tablets). It would need a good scrubdown, some better lights (the wiring and conduits are all in place) and probably some rehabilitation near the entrances. Pick a line (i.e. West Hempstead, Hempstead) to service it and have everybody else skip it.
Wayne
>>>>Good idea! Nice looking station buried down there, too (beige tile with violet tablets). It would need
a good scrubdown, some better lights (the wiring and conduits are all in place) and probably some
rehabilitation near the entrances. Pick a line (i.e. West Hempstead, Hempstead) to service it and
have everybody else skip it. <<<<
It would bring the number of active underground LIRR stations to two, unless you count Flatbush Avenue, which has been exposed somewhat by excavations around it.
No. Three. Penn Sta. and Flatbush Ave. are both underground.
No, I think Kevin was being a little sarcastic as you now can see some daylight and even a piece of the new mall at Flatbush Av. But then I guess under that reasoning the IRT station would not be underground either since its on the same level!!
Here's a question about the Panama Canal Zone.
What is that empty area alongside the Manhattan bound local platform, on the Bergen Street End? I know that curve on the Nevins end is for the Mineola.
Wayne, when it was open in the sixties there were only 2 or 3 trains that stopped there each way.
Yes, I know - perhaps that in and of itself is why nobody used it.
Wayne
Which came first, the chicken or the egg or the chicken or the egg or the chicken or the . . . ?
THE PIG!
Since the closing of the station came roughly about the same time as the start of the M-1's could there be a correlation there?
[Since the closing of the station (Woodhaven) came roughly about the same time as the start of the M-1's could there be a correlation there?]
I don't see how - there was no reason why the M-1's couldn't serve the station.
A more likely explanation is that the closing of the LIRR Rockaway line left Woodhaven largely superfluous. What about the fact that more than a decade passed between the end of the Rockaway line and Woodhaven's closing? I'd attribute that mainly to the fact that the LIRR was and is a slow-moving bureaucracy. And don't forget that the MTA came into being during those years, which probably slowed the decision-making process even more. Finally, closing Woodside was unlikely to have been on the top of any must-do list, as the costs of keeping it open probably weren't much.
Bob...You forgot the Westbridge station, located at Jamaica Ave. on the main line from Penn. Sta., right before the Jamaica station.
Carl M.
Correct! (that's 32)
I was in the NYPL main branch map room the other day (a must for any NYC history or transit buff) and asked to see a 1922(!) Hagstrom of Brooklyn. I noticed that the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch was still an active passenger line in those days, though by then only a few stops like Rugby and Kouwenhoven were open by then.
The Queens Hagstrom from 1923 had similar fascinating revelations. I was all set to get it copied for use on
www.forgotten-ny.com
when the clerk informed me that because of the great age of the maps they couldn't risk putting them on the drum roll copier. Just as well, the Langenscheidt (Hagstrom's parent company) hired liars woulda been all over me no doubt, if Forgotten ever became a real mioneymaking operation.
Thief! Thief!
[If you want to go back to, say, 1930, I count 30 closings in Queens:
Union Hall St., Hillside, Bellaire, Springfield Gardens, Grand St., Winfield, Rego Park, Parkside, Matawok, Brooklyn Manor, Ozone Park, Elmhurst, Corona, Flushing – Bridge St., College Point, Malba, Whitestone, Whitestone Landing, Cedar Manor, Higbie Ave., Richmond Hill, Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman, Penny Bridge, Union Course, Woodhaven, Clarenceville, Morris Park, Dunton]
Better not let Claire Shulman know ...
By the way, where was Clarenceville?
Clarenceville was an old name for Richmond Hill. I guess they kept the name on the Atlantic Ave. line to distinguish it from Richmond Hill on the Long Island City line.
Ok, so that would mean the Clarenceville, Morris Park and Dunton stations were all there when the LIRR line was at grade (no evidence of any in the current tunnel, only Woodhaven).
Where was Union Course and Matawok? Since you have Matawok in with the Rockaway Branch stations, was it between Parkside and Brooklyn Manor?
Higbie Avenue - wasn't that Freight Only?
Wayne
Matawok was just east of White Pot Junction on the Main Line.
Union Course was between 81st and 82nd Sts. on the Altantic Ave. Line.
You may be right about Higbie Ave. in later years, but I have a timetable from 1911 that shows passenger service at "Springfield (Higbie Ave.)"
Hey Bob, what about the Raunt?
I didn't include it since it is on the part that is now serviced by by the subway.
>>>Long Island City<<<
LIC is still open for limited service...
Kevin, First thanks you for your excerpts from the article and thoughtful comments. I also noticed that you identified the publication & author of the article but I feel I should offer a word of caution to all of us so we don't get ourselves or our host Dave in trouble.
The Copyright law holds that anything published after 1978 can't be quoted by more then 400 words without the expressed permission of the author/publication. Less then that you MUST credit the source/author.
However tables, charts & figures are NOT included in this 400 word exception.
P.S. You probally have noticed that I frequently lift comments from some article that I've read, but am always mindful of how far I can go before potentially creating a problem. I do this to alert/share with my SubTalk/BusTalk friends and appreciate when they do the same. There have been many subjects of great interest to me that I wouldn't have had the opportunity to learn about/obtain if it wasn't for the free exchange that occurs here.
Mr t__:^)
Could one of you who are MTA employees post a picture of the cab controls of an MTA SL50 locomotive. I am curious about the setup on a modern GE switcher.
John J. Blair
Aside from Archer/Parsons, are there any stations whose part-time entrances are indicated by YELLOW light fixtures instead of RED?
I've seen that from the LIRR and meant to ask, what was yellow supposed to mean as opposed to read? Why did they just use green/red? yellow could be used to indicate Metrocard only (gold).
A red globe indicates an entrance that is closed at night.
Yellow entrances are always open, but there may be no
token booth open and accessible from that entrance at night.
Red globes indicate some restriction such as MetroCard Only or booth only open during rush hour or exit only- as an example 24th and 8th ave has high exit wheels and has a red globe at strweet level. teh etxt reads "exit only"
What do green/white split globes indicate?
The white part of the split globe (whether green or red) is there to provide lighting on the stairway to which the globe is affixed.
David
it's strange--- everytime i see the yellow station heading i think it's yellow stain--- and refers to captain queeg
Hey Paul, is this what you were thinking of:
you dare sing that to my face--- just because you disloyal officers got off due to that lawyer of yours who tricked me, doesn't give you the right to mock me in public--- i suppose the next thing you'll put up is film of the Caine steaming over the its tow line--- it's just more trick photography created by a bunch of disloyal officers
I think he's been eating too much yellow snow... :o>
wayne
I thought there are no yellow globes anymore. They were only installed for a few months before someone decided it was too "complicated" to use three colors. Most of the yellow globes already installed were gradually replaced with red ones over the next few years.
Parsons/Archer still has a yellow globe? Perhaps, since it was installed as an integral part of the construction of a new station, they didn't want to change it.
Several people have ADDRESSED my original question, but nobody has even tried to ANSWER it, so I'll post it again:
Aside from Parsons/Archer, are there any stations whose part-time entrances are indicated by YELLOW light fixtures instead of RED?
[Aside from Parsons/Archer, are there any stations whose part-time entrances are indicated by YELLOW light fixtures instead of RED?]
I don't claim to have seen all stations, but of those I have, I've never seen yellow fixtures.
Don't you ride the LIRR? Look out the windows on the right side (when facing forward) of a westbound train before Jamaica, you can see a yellow fixture at Jamaica Center station. That's how I saw it.
(Mark Green called for an end to the bus monopolies)
Does that mean he is in favor of more private vans? School vouchers? Allowing new supermarkets in poor neighborhoods without five years of lawsuits and red tape. It would be nice if Mark Green were really against monopolies. Mr. T take the hint, he just wants a contribution to his campaign.
(Off peak discounts for Queens to Nassau Commuters)
I'm sure Nassau would be in favor. I was told by a member of the Long Island Planning Commission that they love city to suburb commuters because they allow low-wage jobs to be filled without having the moderate income workers actually live in Nassau, where they would be "inappropriate." And they prefer mass transit for these workers, so they don't take up space on Nassau's roads.
But the LIRR doesn't want city to suburb commuters because of the two-track problem others have mentioned. Taking people out isn't a way to fill empty seats on trains heading north to start their second run in. It is a special trip that limits express service.
This week's episode of the Sopranos on HBO provides a quick glimpse of the beloved Redbirds.
When Chris goes back to NY to visit a director he has become friends with, he runs across Janeane Garofalo (playing herself) who tells him that his "friend" left for LA. When the camera focuses on Chris's reaction, in the background you can see the subway passing by. The Redbirds appear to be of the World's Fair kind. The elevated structure is actually bilevel. At first glance, it appeared to be similar to the bilivel structure found outside of the Pelham #6's yard on Westchester Avenue and Water St in the Bronx. The street scene does not resemble it at all so it is not that location.
I have heard that the Sopranos interior sequences are actually filmed in the Astoria Kaufman studios in Queens. So I figure this part was then filmed near the Flushing el. Does anyone know where the el becomes bilevel? Has anyone else watched the episode and noticed this also?
Thanks.
The Flusing line is a bilvel elevated between the 11th and 104th street station. When the express goes on it, it skips both stops. The middle track underneath it ends in a bumper block and the express comes back down to the regular el shortly after the 104th St station. That is probably what you saw...
-Harry
Actually, The Soprano's is staged at the Silvercup Studios. The sighting of the Flushing Redbirds is from the vantage point of looking east along 43rd avenue. Between Queensboro Plaza and Court Square, there is a point where the 7, which runs right past Silvercup, is briefly bi-level. I was wondering if anyone caught that little glimpse.
Oh, I see, so that's the studios the show is taped at.
That would make sense then. That is exactly the scene I was talking about. You can even here the Redbirds "singing" as they are passing within the camera's point of view. Of course, it's difficult to hear them with Chris cursing.
Chances are then, when he's talking to Janeane Garofalo outside of what is supposed to be a movie studio - that is actually the Silvercup studio itself!
[The letter was included in a "Stations of Shame" report in which Shulman cited the closing of 14 LIRR stations in Queens, charging that many of the deserted stations became trash dumping grounds and hangouts for youths.]
She must be going back decades to come up with 14 closed Queens stations. Only by including the Rockaway line can you come up with that number - and those stations were closed in the early 1960's. And as far as the closed stations being dumping grounds and hang-out places is concerned, that's rather hard to reconcile with the fact that almost all of the closed stations have been obliterated. Somehow, I don't think anyone's hanging around in the Rego Park or Springfield Gardens stations :-)
Getting back to the main part of the complaint, I get the impression that Green and Shulman didn't manage to get their facts entirely straight (and not just about the closed stations). The Queens stations along the Port Washington line have more-than-adequate service, as do Woodside, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens and of course Jamaica. The SE Queens stations don't have quite as many trains, but they do have enough service to make commuting feasible and compare favorably to many Nassau and Suffolk stations. High fares? Well, I can't deny that the fares aren't cheap, but it's best to look at the LIRR in much of Queens as being the high-priced option. You want reasonably quick service at a rather high price, take the LIRR. If you want lower fares, though with a slower trip, take the subway/bus combo. Most Nassau and all Suffolk riders have no such option - it's the LIRR or nothing.
Realistically speaking the LIRR is just not able to serve large numbers of Queens commuters. The LIRR in Queens was constructed years ago, mostly before the consolidation of NYC in 1898, when Queens was a rural community. Adding more Queens service would only add time to the commute of Nassau and Suffolk commuters, the LIRR's prime market. Add enough time to their commute and they will drive into NYC - right through Queens on the LIE. Mark Green needs 'crusades' like this to turn himself into some kind of hero.
>>>Adding more Queens service would only add time to the commute of Nassau
and Suffolk commuters, the LIRR's prime market. Add enough time to their commute and they will drive
into NYC - right through Queens on the LIE. Mark Green needs 'crusades' like this to turn himself into
some kind of hero. <<<
I would agree with you about the LIRR being primarily a rush hour mover of Nassau and Suffolk commuters. However, I would hold the LIRR to at least the pretense of serving Queens customers; that would mean fixing the crumbling, and occasionally dangerous, platforms and staircases at stations like St. Albans and Broadway. Hollis and St. Albans commuters, few though they may be, deserve at least that much.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Station maintenance is paid for by the localities involved. Every year, Nassau and Suffolk Counties receive bills from the LIRR. When Suffolk refused to pay for maintenance of some stations several decades ago, the LIRR tore the station houses down. The LIRR has also been closing stations completely where there is no other mass transit. In the last 20 years or so they have closed these stations near me: Republic, South Farmingdale, Deer Park, Bellport and Blue Point.
NYC pays for station maintenance on City stations. I imagine if they were paying for St. Albans, etc., and the maintenance wasn't done, we'd be hearing from Mark Green about it.
I'm really tired of Mark Green's game playing. He's going to be some great Mayor.
Yeah, the problem is that if Giuliani actually beats the Most Intelligent Female In The World Today, Grammy® Winner, One Of The Top Ten Lawyers In The Country, All Around Great Gal and Fifth Beatle, HRC, we get the insufferable Mark Green in City Hall for a year and maybe beyond.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Lots of people who can't stand Hillary will be voting for her anyway to avoid Mark Green. But I've heard that if Giuliani resigns by a certain date, there is a special election in November. If that's the case, it should be a issue in the Senate campaign.
I am a Giuliani hater who hopes that he wins so that we get a mayor who is not so hostile to the the working class and to the terrorized poor, and not nearly so ready to defend egregious police thugs.
Is Green grandstanding? Sure, but, more power to him. He's drawing attention to a longstanding serious issue -- lousy, ripoff LIRR service in Queens. If eastern Queens isn't going to get subways (and it isn't), then the existing LIRR stations ought to be served much more frequently and for lower fares.
I grew up in Queens Village, and I can tell you that the lack of subways there (and in all of eastern Queens) promotes a car-based culture that renders the area virtually indisinguishable from Nassau County.
This results in a drain on the City's economy, because the people in that area are inclined to drive to Nassau to do all their shopping. This, as opposed to being able to hop on a subway or a reliable LIRR train to go a shorter distance to Jamaica, where their purchases would help OUR economy instead of that of some suburban county. (And where they would spend *a lot* less money on whatever they were buying than they would out in Nassau.)
People from eastern Queens virtually never go to Jamaica, or, for that matter, to Flushing, Ridgewood, or to any of Queens's commercial hubs, since this would require driving and (worse) parking in those areas. So, the people there wind up being much more familiar with Glen Oaks, Roosevelt Field, Valley Stream, etc., than they are with the commercial centers which are in their own City and borough.
We need steps aimed at combating this phenomenon and reversing this trend, so Green gets a big "way to go" for me on this one!
Ferdinand Cesarano
(Queens residents shop in Nassau)
Eastern Queens residents aren't going to go to the supermarket on the LIRR. We tried to get more supermarkets and other stores in Queens, but the Queens politicians fought us every step of the way.
I wasn't really talking about supermarkets. I was referring more to department stores, as well as to smaller shops that sell clothing, furniture, or electronics.
And, anyway, lack of stores isn't the problem. We don't really need more stores in Queens; what we need are adequate means of reaching the existing stores without having to drive and park.
Ferdinand Cesarano
[Is Green grandstanding? Sure, but, more power to him. He's drawing attention to a longstanding serious issue -- lousy, ripoff LIRR service in Queens.]
I agree - Green IS grandstanding and the LIRR should lower its fares and increase service for rides within Brooklyn and Queens. The problem is fare control - how do you check which passengers have tickets just for interboro travel? How many times will the conductors have to check everyone's tickets? Or should the LIRR run special local rapid transit trains, as they did in the distant past from LIC and Flatbush Ave. through Queens to (coincidentally) Queens Village? These services were discontinued after the IND Fulton and Queens Blvd. lines took away most of their passengers.
[And, anyway, lack of stores isn't the problem. We don't really need more stores in Queens; what we need are adequate means of reaching the existing stores without having to drive and park.]
Well, if it weren't for the NIMBYs in Glendale and Middle Village, etc. you could have had subway service today on the LIC branch. They shot that idea down years ago. You could get off at Fresh Pond and it would be just a short walk to the Metropolitan Ave. Mall. Also, they've been talking for over 20 years about having subway service take over the LIRR's Altantic branch through Locust Manor and Laurelton.
Don't just blame Giuliani.
>>>And, anyway, lack of stores isn't the problem. We don't really need more stores in Queens; what
we need are adequate means of reaching the existing stores without having to drive and park<<<
That's plain to subtalkers. But talk about building subways and LIRR branches in eastern Queens will get you shouted down at community board meetings.
People just wanna drive.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes, but we're not really talking about building anything new, just about providing better service to the existing stations. That, and reopening recently-closed stations which are still standing.
These are things which would not require constructing any new subway or rail lines (as welcome as that would be from my own point of view).
Ferdinand Cesarano
Tell that to the residents along the Rockaway line. They don't care if it's still there. They don't want more trains. New track. Old track. Makes no difference.
[I grew up in Queens Village, and I can tell you that the lack of subways there (and in all of eastern Queens) promotes a car-based culture that renders the area virtually indisinguishable from Nassau
County.
This results in a drain on the City's economy, because the people in that area are inclined to drive to Nassau to do all their shopping. This, as opposed to being able to hop on a subway or a reliable
LIRR train to go a shorter distance to Jamaica, where their purchases would help OUR economy instead of that of some suburban county. (And where they would spend *a lot* less money on whatever they were buying than they would out in Nassau.)]
Saying that Eastern Queens' car-based culture is something bad is jumping to a rather unwarranted conclusion. Population densities in many parts of Eastern Queens are not too different from what you'll see in parts of Nassau and in other close-in suburbs. These densities may not be enough to support extensive transit services, at least not without incurring horrendous farebox recovery ratios. But these densities might be more suitable for motor vehicle usage, as you'll see in Nassau. As much as I like the subway, and support quality transit service in general, I do not promote it as a "one size fits all" solution that's workable everywhere.
As far as the shopping in Nassau County is concerned, given NYC's bias against large stores, you can hardly expect anything else. Queens residents who drive to the suburbs to shop usually will be able to shop at places offering a much wider variety of merchandise at better prices. You can hardly blame them for that. At least they have options, something that car-less city residents do not.
"Queens residents who drive to the suburbs to shop usually will be able to shop at places offering a much wider variety of merchandise at better prices."
I would dispute that. The only benefit that stores in Nassau County offer Queens residents relative to Queens stores is parking availability, not better prices. I think you're going to pay plenty more for just about everything at Nassau shopping areas than you would pay for those same items in equivalent places in Queens.
Furthermore, is there anywhere in the whole NYC area where you can get such diversity of quality merchandise for so little money as Jamaica? I doubt it. It is just a great place to shop.
But, trying to drive and park around there is maddening.
So, unless the unlikely Archer Avenue line extention ever takes place, New York City is doomed to experience a certain amount of economic drain, and eastern Queens residents will continue to pay more than they need to for all kinds of items.
Ferdinand Cesarano
["Queens residents who drive to the suburbs to shop usually will be able to shop at places offering a much wider variety of
merchandise at better prices."
I would dispute that. The only benefit that stores in Nassau County offer Queens residents relative to Queens stores is parking
availability, not better prices. I think you're going to pay plenty more for just about everything at Nassau shopping areas than you would pay for those same items in equivalent places in Queens.
Furthermore, is there anywhere in the whole NYC area where you can get such diversity of quality merchandise for so little money as Jamaica? I doubt it. It is just a great place to shop.]
How so? Nassau has a wide variety of discount shopping emporia - a Wal-Wart, a couple Targets, several K-Marts, a couple soon-to-open Kohl's, four full-scale malls, supermarkets galore, and so on. That sheer volume produces fierce competition that almost invariably lowers prices. Queens has far less - no Wal-Marts, one Target (IIRC quite remote from transit), one or two K-Marts - you get the picture. And NYC's supermarkets are the laughingstock of the nation for their atrocious quality and sky-high prices.
Most Nassua and Suffolk supermarkets also give double coupons , not so in Queens.
You're right -- Queens does not have many of those major chain stores. What we do have, however, is an abundance of smaller stores with names that mean nothing to anyone outside the store's neighborhood.
For example, in Jamaica, there are wonderful discount clothing/linen places called Alexus, C.H. Martin, ABC, and several others with names that I cannot even remember. Also, in Woodhaven near the Brooklyn border, there is this great store called Liberty, and another one called Dee Dee's. These are stores which I contend will beat your Long Island giganto-store on prices virtually every time.
Again, I am not talking here about groceries, but primarily about clothes.
Additionally, if you want to buy electronics, nothing beats the ability to check out literally a dozen different stores along Jamaica Avenue near Merrick Blvd before buying. Doing this, you are very likely to find a good listed price on something you like, and, even if you can't, you'll probably be able to haggle.
So, forget Wal-Mart and Target. I'll put the no-name shops of Jamaica against them any time.
Ferdinand Cesarano
(What we do have is an abundance of small stores)
Wrong again. Relative to its population and income, Queens has fewer small stores than Nassau, or the national average. Queens people just spend their money in Nassau, period.
Fernando, I agree with everything you said EXCEPT: Glen Oaks and its large shopping center with new K-Mart ARE in Queens. Unfortunately, it's only served by the Q46 and is nowhere near any subway or LIRR station.
A Price Club, Target, Circuit City, R-US's, multiplex and many other businesses have opened on the Whitestone-College Point border- er, boundary- which has caused horrible traffic congestion, so it is attracting people to shop within city limits. The TA did make one token gesture, creating a 'new' route Q20A that passes a lot of the new development.
It probably doesn't help that there's a separate parking lot for each large store a la the Westbury mess, which forces people to drive from one lot to another for fear of being towed if they try to walk! (Of course, people may also reluctant to take a large item home on public transportation.)
The Q20A has attracted a lot of ridership, but it seems to be mostly the people who work at these enterprises- there's tremendous crowding every eight hours when shifts change.
(College Point development has attracted shoppers)
From all over Queens. The problem is that every retail development has to go through a huge review process than takes $millions and years. The only thing that can get through the process is a mega-development, so you get concentrated development instead of spread out development. If you like shopping at warehouse clubs, for example, there are only two in all of Queens, one at College Point.
Even so, anywhere else they would have built a flyover off the expressway into the College Point industrial park. In NYC, you either stop the stores because of an alleged traffic problem, or allow the store without improvements. You never spend 50 cents to accomodate the development.
Honestly, it wouldn't necessarilly slow down Nassau service to provide more in city service. They have people to plan that sort of thing and figure it out. I don't know about this, because I have no track maps for the LIRR(where do you get those anyway?), but how many places are availible to turn around trains?
It would absolutely slow down service from Nassau and Suffolk to make additional stops in Queens. Each stop adds a little bit more than 90 seconds to the trip. So adding stops at Locust Manor, Laurelton and Rosedale (for example) adds about 4-5 minutes to any trip -- probably an increase in travel time of about 10% for most LIRR commuters.
The thing I'm missing here is -- Where is the demand for more LIRR service in Queens (other than from a few SubTalkers and Mark Green)? Unless you're going to significantly reduce the fare, there is none. As others have noted, the fare within Queens for a monthly pass is either $75 or $117 -- not very different from the monthly Metrocard options (63/120).
There is only one Queens station which does not have regular service -- St. Albans. As has been discussed here many times, the passenger volume at St. Albans warrants closing the station, not increasing service (took the 8:34 PM to Babylon last night -- a 10 car train probably carrying about 750-1000 people; 4 passengers got off at St. Albans, none got on). (And there are no holes in the active platform at St. Albans -- the holes are in an abandoned portion of the platform which has been long sealed off from passenger access).
All of the other stations get service that is in line with what the other stations along their branch get.
The advent of the unlimited Metrocard and especially the free bus/subway transfers has reduced the need for LIRR service in Queens -- the people have spoken with their feet.
Chuck
(Where is the demand for LIRR service in Queens)
The Port Washington Line is pretty heavily used. It could use more trains, and longer platforms. If the Whitestone Branch, or the line that went through the Kissena Corridor were still there, I'd expect them to get riders.
Lots of Howard Beach riders were willing to pay extra for the train to the plane when it was running, just for fewer stops and a feeling of exclusivity. If the Rockaway line were re-opened with several stations, I'd expect lots of ridership. You'd even get some park-n-ride at Aquadect if it were available.
Southeast Queens is dominated by people who work for the government, and work outside Manhattan, but that could change. There are not enough stations, or enough service, to pull people in.
I hear that the Auburndale platform will be lengthened. Murray Hill should be lengthened, but it's in an open cut and has nowhere to go. Flushing Main Street desperately needs a crossover a la Little Neck and Port Washington.
It may have been shortsighted to close the Whitestone Branch, but if you don't use it you lose it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[It may have been shortsighted to close the Whitestone Branch, but if you don't use it you lose it.]
Why was the Whitestone Branch closed? IIRC, it got the ax in 1932. That was well before car ownership and suburbanization began to drain away transit ridership, and moreover it was a time when transit was still in the expansion mode - consider that the first phase of the IND opened at just about the same time. Could the reason be that the Depression was reducing ridership?
The Whitestone Branch terminated in LIC. Even though the line was electrified in 1928, they did not send trains into Penn Station. Nobody ever claimed the LIRR was innovative after the PRR buyout.
>>>The Whitestone Branch terminated in LIC. Even though the line was electrified in 1928, they did not
send trains into Penn Station. Nobody ever claimed the LIRR was innovative after the PRR buyout.<<<
The Whitestone diverged from the present Port Wash. branch at a point just east of the Big Shea. In fact if you are riding the PW branch you can still see an extant portion of the old Whitestone trackage trailing off into a marshy area.
The Whitestone continued north into Flushing. Its first stop was Flushing Bridge Street (that's why we have a Flushing Main Street station, when a mere Flushing ought to do), then cut northwest into College Point, and then turned NE and then E, terminating where the Waldbaums at 10th Avenue and 154th is now.
An unusual quirk of the Whitestone was that the third rail was on the passenger side of the platform! Don't slip while getting on, whatever you did.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Part of the trench that the Cross Island Parkway was built into between the Whitestone Bridge/Expressway and Utopia Parkway (1940) was originally the right-of-way of this branch. The Whitestone station was around the 150th Street overpass. The railroad then proceeded east to past Clintonville Street and turned north through what is now the Whitestone Shopping Center (built 1955 or thereabouts). No other evidence of this line can be found any longer, although some of the street patterns in parts of Whitestone developed before WWII suggest where it might have gone through.
Having grown up in Whitestone, I regret the demise of this line. It would have spared me the agony of waiting an hour on weekends for the Q16 to and from Flushing.
It's well known that the Gowanus Expressway was built as a Parkway on the elevated line that ran along 3rd Avenue. I can't think of any other defunct rail lines that became highways, can you?
[It's well known that the Gowanus Expressway was built as a Parkway on the elevated line that ran along 3rd Avenue. I can't think of any other defunct rail lines that became highways, can you?]
If we can go outside the city limits, there's a roadway called (IIRC) Heathcote Bypass in Scarsdale that was built on the former NYW&B right of way. Its grade and alignment is quite different from any of the surrounding streets.
I'm certain there are plenty.
Part of the NYC RR Putnam Division was used as a relocation for the Taconic State Pkwy. Part of the old CNJ RR in Bayonne is now NJ Route 169 (I believe). The old PRR in Jersey City is now Christopher Columbus Boulevard. A driveway into Garden State Plaza was the Public Service Hudson River trolley line. The list is endless. Of course the ultimate is the Pennsylvania Turnpike, which was built on the grade of the never-completed South Pennsylvania RR. Also parts of NY State Route 17 were built on the O&W RR roadbed.
Here in Boston the Southeast Expressway and Burgin Parkway were built on ex-New Haven rights of way. This actually obliterated the Granite Railway, America's first successful railroad, built in 1826. Few traces remain. But they are there, if you know where to look.
03/03/2000
Conrad,
I was told a few years ago that there was some old concrete bridge abutments from the old O & W between the Route 17 divided roadways. Did you hear anything on this?
Bill Newkirk
I forget where, but somewhere near Rockland Co., there is an O & W station converted to a restaurant, with a tunnel in back.
Bob...The old Mechanicstown station outside of Middletown, NY(the O & W's headquarters) is now the "Rusty Nail" restaurant. I believe it was moved to this location from the original ROW just down the road...I believe it's Denning Rd., just around the corner from the old Orange Plaza.
Carl M.
West Side Highway.
03/04/2000
Howard Fein,
There is at least one remnant of the LIRR Whitestone Branch I can account for. Several months ago while dining with Don Harold, Don says "see that parking lot (adjacent to White house Inn restaurant), that's the old Whitestone Branch".
Back in the early 1980's (yikes! 20 years ago), with the help of an old xeroxed map, I saw some unbuilt, tree covered sections of ROW between some houses. Of course they may been developed in 20 years. But check out the White House Inn lot. Also check out the W.H. Inn's minestrone soup! It's to die for!!
Bill Newkirk
[The Whitestone station was around the 150th Street overpass. The railroad then proceeded east to past Clintonville Street and turned north through what is now the Whitestone Shopping Center (built 1955
or thereabouts).]
Howard, Is there anything left that marks the route ... I take the Cross-Island in every day & haven't seen anything obvious yet. It would seem that other then the cut everything was re-done when the Cross-Island was put in.
Mr t__:^)
When driving north on the Van Wyck shortly after crossing under Roosevelt Ave, one can see in the Flushing Creek some wooden bridge pilings. Are these left over from the Whitestone Branch bridge?
Also there is a stone and sand dealer on the east bank of the creek, near the Whitestone Expwy overpass, that has a track in the yard at the water's edge. Until recently a railway crane was used to unload barges there. Is that track a remnant of the Whitestone Branch? The crane looked old enough to have been delivered on its own wheels by the LIRR in the '30s (though probably with the boom disassembled).
Also was the branch removed all at once, or was it abandoned and then gradually removed? Did the trestle survive beyond the abandonment?
Lack of foresight on the part of government strikes again. Wouldn't it be nice to have a rail siding at that new NY Times printing plant (and the post office) in College Point? Not to mention the "big box" retail going in near the old Flushing Airport........
[The thing I'm missing here is -- Where is the demand for more LIRR service in Queens (other than from a few SubTalkers and Mark Green)? Unless you're going to significantly reduce the fare, there
is none. As others have noted, the fare within Queens for a monthly pass is either $75 or $117 -- not very different from the monthly Metrocard options (63/120).
The advent of the unlimited Metrocard and especially the free bus/subway transfers has reduced the need for LIRR service in Queens -- the people have spoken with their feet.]
There is no such demand. Mark Green, as usual, is grandstanding.
Unless you're going to significantly reduce the fare, there is none
I think that was part of Mr. Green's argument - the fare should be reduced to the same level enjoyed by Nassau and Suffolk riders.
[I think that was part of Mr. Green's argument - the fare should be reduced to the same level enjoyed by Nassau and Suffolk riders.]
As a Suffolk rider, in Fare Zone 11, I find it very difficult indeed to "enjoy" the $214 I shell out each month.
As a Suffolk rider, in Fare Zone 11, I find it very difficult indeed to "enjoy" the $214 I shell out each month.
A typical zone 11 station like Patchogue is 56 miles form Penn Sta. A typical zone 3 station like Douglaston is 14 miles from Penn Sta. A monthly ticket for Douglaston is $117. If you were being charged on a mileage basis, as you would have been prior to the NYS takeover, you should be charged $468. Your subsidy comes to $254 compared to a NYC resident.
The ICC used to set a maximum per mile charge for railroads railroads to prevent such obvious abuses.
In pricing for a commuter railroad, setting fares on a "per mile" basis is an oversimplification. The value of the commuter railroad is in its terminal -- in this case Penn Station. So there's a "capacity charge" that everyone pays for the opportunity to use Penn Station and then you can apply a "mileage charge" in consideration for the time you're on the train.
Based on the LIRR's monthly fares, the "capacity charge" for Penn Station is about $100. The per mile charge is about $2 per mile. Using these factors gets you the following fares for some sample stations:
Station (Zone/formula fare/actual fare)
Jamaica (3/122/117)
Lynbrook (4/140/135)
Bellmore (7/156/154)
Huntington (9/174/181)
Oakdale (10/198/200)
Patchogue (11/212/214)
In reality, the capacity charge is not only for using Penn, but also includes the fixed costs of operating the railroad. This is why a monthly ticket between just about any two points is going to be more than the "per mile" charge might indicate.
One concession that would seem to be fair to Queens riders would be to make the stations in Western Queens Zone 2 stations rather than Zone 1 for the purpose of intra-Queens travel. I suspect that this would cause some fare collection logistical nightmares for the LIRR, though.
Chuck
[In pricing for a commuter railroad, setting fares on a "per mile" basis is an oversimplification. The value of the commuter railroad
is in its terminal -- in this case Penn Station. So there's a "capacity charge" that everyone pays for the opportunity to use Penn
Station and then you can apply a "mileage charge" in consideration for the time you're on the train.
Based on the LIRR's monthly fares, the "capacity charge" for Penn Station is about $100. The per mile charge is about $2 per mile. Using these factors gets you the following fares for some sample stations:
Station (Zone/formula fare/actual fare)
Jamaica (3/122/117)
Lynbrook (4/140/135)
Bellmore (7/156/154)
Huntington (9/174/181)
Oakdale (10/198/200)
Patchogue (11/212/214)
In reality, the capacity charge is not only for using Penn, but also includes the fixed costs of operating the railroad. This is why a
monthly ticket between just about any two points is going to be more than the "per mile" charge might indicate.]
Thanks for the interesting analysis. Hopefully, it'll silence some of the Queens-centrics who decry the "terrific deals" Suffolk commuters supposedly get.
What has been described is the mechanism for discriminating against NYC residents. The "formula" is the MTA's own design. Assuming an average of 25 round trips per month this amounts to $1 per station per ride. Such station charges were allowed by the ICC, when a railroad was charged for using another railroad's station. The PRR received 5 cents for every LIRR passenger using Penn Sta which was passed along in the ticket price. However, tickets to the LIRR's own terminal stations did not include this charge.
There are two problems with this cost accounting. First, it does not relate to actual costs incurred by the LIRR. Any costs by the LIRR to Amtrak for Penn Sta use are not reflected in ticket price. The cost is the same for a ticket from any location beyond zone 1 to Woodside, Brooklyn or Penn Sta. Second, there might be some that station maintenance should be reflected in ticket price. However, the localities are assessed such costs by the MTA. Not surprisingly, the MTA feels that more than 40% of such costs should be assessed to NYC. This appears to be a classic case of double dipping.
The amount of the "capacity" charge is arbitrary. The mileage charge is fixed regardless of locality. Obviously, the fare can be made more or less discriminatory against Queens residents by raising one charge and lowering the other. As I said in an earlier post, the prospect for abuse was so great that the ICC set a maximum per mileage charge for all train trips.
The amount of the capacity charge is hardly arbitrary. It represents the fixed cost of carrying a single passenger. The capacity charge is higher for Zone 1 because of the Amtrak charges into Penn Station (I agree 110% that the LIRR should bring back Zone 1A/1B pricing to reflect the higher costs to Penn rather than Flatbush).
In some respects, LIRR pricing is similar to airline pricing. They have high costs just to run a single train. How far a person travels on that train once it's moving is pretty much inconsequential. Once you've covered your fixed costs, then the goal becomes filling up your empty seats. That's why the LIRR can offer those very low fares for intra-Long Island service but not as low for intra-Queens. There just aren't as many empty seats to fill once the trains are in Queens, and there isn't enough demand to have Queens only service (with the exception of the rush hour Great Neck to Penn runs and a single Valley Stream to Penn run).
Chuck
The amount of the capacity charge is hardly arbitrary. It represents the fixed cost of carrying a single passenger.
There are very few costs associated with a railroad that are independent of trip length. The one notable exception is charges for use of a terminal such as Penn Station. Practically every other cost is proportional to distance. ROW and rolling stock maintenance are obvious examples. Similarly the amount of rolling stock and its associated capital costs for a given level of service is proportional to the distance travelled.
The analogy to airline pricing does not fly. A turbojet consumes 1/3 its fuel on takeoff. This yields a completely different set of economic imperatives than a train, where fuel consumption is more closely proportional to distance travelled.
Once you've covered your fixed costs, then the goal becomes filling up your empty seat. That's why the LIRR can offer those very low fares for intra-Long Island service but not as low for intra-Queens.
Filling up empty seats does not appear to be the goal. If given equal opportunity Queens residents would fill up those seats by virtue of the higher population densities.
I'm not convinced that costs are as closely correlated with trip length as you suggest. Perhaps someone who's more technically oriented could comment with more authority, but I'd guess that the number of stops, starts and door openings and closings has much more influence on maintenance costs than miles traveled (perhaps someone could compare the MDBF performance of the cars which are used on the Far Rockaway A train with similar cars on another line for some insight here).
Labor costs don't necessarily vary with distance either. Components of each crew can be short turned along the line to cover areas of highest passenger density. NJT makes extensive use of this along the NEC, and LIRR does it at Jamaica but I'm not sure if they continue the practice further east.
Re: empty seats. I was trying to say two things. First, that there aren't many empty seats which need filling once the trains get to Queens. Second, there are usually plenty of empty seats until a train gets to the last or next-to-last station before Jamaica heading westbound. Since those seats are within Nassau and Suffolk (usually) it makes sense to sell them at a discounted rate.
I agree with having a fixed cost as far as it goes. For example, I don't believe Brooklyn residents should pay more to commute to Manhattan than Manhattan residents -- the trains run through in any event.
However, while the number of people affected is low in any event, there really is no excuse for charging more to carry Queens residents within Queens than Nassau residents within Nassau. Seat capacity? Queens residents would be the ones stading in either direction. Subway option? Not for a ride from Eastern Queens to Western Queens -- many Nassau residents have a bus to subway option also.
The only excuse is the operational fare collection issue. Which is just one more reason that the LIRR should have fare control at the stations, not on the train, on a "good faith" (ie. yes you could beat the system by walking around and not swiping but if we catch you during a periodic sweep the fine will be so high it will leave you gasping) basis.
I'm with you in terms of a better intra-Queens fare. But it's an operational nightmare. It's annoying enough to have to show your ticket twice on the LIRR, but three times?
Plus, I suspect that there would still be few takers. Unless you're going between two points that are very close to an LIRR station and at a time when a train is coming, people will still choose the bus/subway option. It takes you to more locations and it's cheaper.
I know it's been beaten around before, but I just don't see the platform fare collection model being viable for the LIRR. Maybe I'm not enough of a visionary, but I don't see it as being viable.
Chuck
How about selling little tags that you can clip to your collar and which will be read automatically by scanners as you get on and off the train. The owner of each tag will have an account with the MTA and periodically replenish it. Set aside one car on each train -- the least convenient one, of course -- for passengers with old fashioned tickets or-- gasp -- cash.
If it works on the railroads, maybe they will try it on the highways and the bridges and tunnels.
That's a GREAT idea, except, how do you identify people who DON'T pay. That's the key. If you could identify those who don't pay, you could have a good faith system for those who do. In other words, your system would charge those with the tag on as they entered the train. But what if people entered the train without the tag?
Really, there is not much difference between having a tag read automatically by the train door and having a Metrocard swiped on entering the station. You still need a check.
My solution is as follows. You are required to swipe a Metrocard (or have a tag read) before entering or exiting any station other than Grand Central or Penn. When you enter or exit, you are charged a Zone 1 fare, as if you were going to or coming from Manhattan. If you then exit elsewhere, any required money is returned to your card or tag based on where you entered. This would avoid the bottleneck of fare control at the terminal.
Ripoff control could come via a variety of means. In locations where the design of the station allows it, you could have subway style fare control (ie. Babylon Line). In other stations, you could have cameras to record people hopping on or off the plaform without paying, occasional sweeps on the train to check that all Metrocards or tags had been swiped, and the posting of plainclothes "fare crimes" cops at stations where fare beating had become common. The fine -- 1/20th of a person's annual income, minimum of $1,000 for the teens. Commuter rail serves middle income areas, where you have people with incomes and fixed addresses and fines are easier to collect -- and a bigger deterrant.
Would some people beat the fare? Sure, but perhaps no more than today, and you'd save the cost of all those conductors. Heck, I've beat the fare by accident on a number of occasions: I intended to purchase a ticket on the train (station office closed) but the conductor never got to the car I was in. The additional sales from Metrocard Machines in the stations might outweight additional intentional fare beating, if any.
Sort of like the London Rapid Transit. For the system to work, the MTA would have to do major renovations of the stations. Take most open air stations on Metro North and LIRR. It would be easy for anybody to fare beat, because instead of going out the exit, they could walk to the end of the platforms and climb out there, thus never paying. Conductors as well as ticketmasters would and could never be eliminated because of their unions. Your plan sounds good on paper, but I think if this plan was to ever go into affect, it would never work. You couldn't get rid of the workers and it would tempt more people to fare beat.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
There is an obvious and simple solution requiring no construction or schedule changes: Put SE Queens back in Nassau County. Once the map is changed, they will qualify for the same lower fares as all other Nassau residents. Moreover, the LIRR will then recognize them as part of the constituency they are supposed to serve instead of as part of the population that they are trying to keep off their trains. Frankly, I'm surprised that the LIRR doesn't have a residency requirement like some of the "public" parks on Long Island.
"Moreover, the LIRR will then recognize them as part of the constituency they are supposed to serve instead of as part of the population that they are trying to keep off their trains."
What exactly is it that makes you say that the LIRR is trying to keep the people of SE Queens off their trains?
(What makes you say the LIRR is trying to keep people off the trains)
Well, the strike plan was a slap in the face, practical considerations or no. Contrast that with city policy during an LIRR strike. The city stops cleaning the streets so LIRR riders can park in its neighborhoods, and does all it can to accomodate LIRR riders on the subway.
>>>Well, the strike plan was a slap in the face, practical considerations or no. <<<
I'm still steaming over that, no matter how many times it's explained to me how impossible it would be to accommodate Queens passengers during a subway strike.
Hey, I'm a people too. Make some plans for the next potential strike!
www.forgotten-ny.com
She must be going back decades to come up with 14 closed Queens stations. Only by including the Rockaway line can you come up with that number - and those stations were closed in the early 1960's.
There is a website that keeps track of lirr station closings since 1960. Here is an extract of stations closed in Queens: Union Hall; Hillside; Bellaire; Springfield Gardens; Long Island City; Richmond Hill; Glendale; Fresh Pond; Haberman; Penny Bridge; Elmhurst; Corona and Woodhaven. That comes to 13 and does not include the following 5 more from the Rockaway Line: Rego Park; Parkside; Brooklyn Manor; Woodhaven Jct and Ozone Park.
Getting back to the main part of the complaint, I get the impression that Green and Shulman didn't manage to get their facts entirely straight (and not just about the closed stations).
It would appear that Green and Shulman got 13 out of 14 correct. That would give them 92% mark on this item - much better than the LIRR's on-time performance.
Long Island City is still open.
You are correct. However with only 7 trains per day and no weekend service, an reasonable observer might find it difficult to find a pulse.
[ Long Island City LIRR is moribund -- 7 trains a day ]
Prior to the opening of the 34th Street Ferry, it was only 4 trains a day. That's a 75% increase in service!
You can also catch a free ride on a orange stripped bus to that ferry from Queens Plaza.
Mr t__:^)
[[She must be going back decades to come up with 14 closed Queens stations. Only by including the Rockaway line can you come up with that number - and those stations were closed in the early 1960's.]
[There is a website that keeps track of lirr station closings since 1960. Here is an extract of stations closed in Queens: Union Hall; Hillside; Bellaire; Springfield Gardens; Long Island City; Richmond Hill; Glendale; Fresh Pond; Haberman; Penny Bridge; Elmhurst; Corona and Woodhaven. That comes to 13 and does not include the following 5 more from the Rockaway Line: Rego Park; Parkside; Brooklyn Manor; Woodhaven Jct and Ozone Park.]
Long Island City has not been closed. Of the 12 remaining ones, all except the five on the lower Montauk line were closed at least 20 to 25 years ago. As much as I detest LIRR management, I hardly think it's entirely fair to blame them for closing station a quarter-century ago.
The MTA seems at some point to have had this idea that the commuter railroads should not be providing competing services in the city, and the subway should not try to attract suburbanites. I remember a decade ago having an MTAer wonder out loud why the Hudson Line had stations in the Bronx. Why compete with ourself?
I think that since the commuter railroads are getting such a large share of the toll surplus anyway, they should be adding more service in the city. And the MTA should open up more park-n-ride lots, so suburban riders can drive most fo the way in and take the subway. I know several people who drive in and take the subway. Competition is good.
...Of the 12 remaining ones, all except the five on the lower Montauk line were closed at least 20 to 25 years ago....
It's my turn to nit-pick - Elmhurst was closed in 1985 - only 15 years ago. (How time flies.)
As much as I detest LIRR management, I hardly think it's entirely fair to blame them for closing station a quarter-century ago.
I think a fair departure point would be the NYS purchase in 1965. This takeover would not have been possible had not NYC, Nassau and Suffolk forgiven their claim for overdue real estate taxes from the LIRR. Both Nassau and Suffolk have received continued and improved service, whereas NYC service has deteriorated.
(Since 1965, service in Queens has deteriorated, while Nassau and Suffolk have improved service)
Service has gotten worse in Brooklyn too, on those routes served by the LIRR. As for Nassau and Suffolk, they had it good for a while, but I wouldn't want to change places with them now. Transportation, in general, has been disinvested in for 30 years. Hence the battle to see who, if anyone, will get some investment.
Why did they totally destroy Elmhurst? I was never quite sure why they closed it, I was only 4 at the time...
>>>>It's my turn to nit-pick - Elmhurst was closed in 1985 - only 15 years ago. (How time flies.) <<<
Amazing...for a station closed only 15 years ago, only the barest trace remains today...if that much.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Amazing...for a station closed only 15 years ago (Elmhurst), only the barest trace remains today...if that much.]
LIRR management seems pretty diligent about eradicating any traces of closed stations. In the recent case of Holtsville, this was taken to an extreme. All that existed at Holtsville was a small shelter like you'd see at a bus stop, sitting on a concrete pad. The shelter was removed soon after the station closed a couple of years ago. Then, about a year later, the concrete pad was jackhammered out of existence. I can't figure out why the LIRR bothered - the pad was just sitting there, not in anyone's way.
>>Then, about a year later, the concrete pad was jackhammered out of
existence. I can't figure out why the LIRR bothered - the pad was just sitting there, not in anyone's
way. <<<
Jeez, the LIRR eradicated all trace of Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman and Penny Bridge BEFORE those stops closed! I think they were imparting a subtle message there...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Strange that they left Richmond Hill.
If you want to go back to, say, 1930, I count 30 closings in Queens:
Union Hall St., Hillside, Bellaire, Springfield Gardens, Grand St., Winfield, Rego Park, Parkside, Matawok, Brooklyn Manor, Ozone Park, Elmhurst, Corona, Flushing – Bridge St., College Point, Malba, Whitestone, Whitestone Landing, Cedar Manor, Higbie Ave., Richmond Hill, Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman, Penny Bridge, Union Course, Woodhaven, Clarenceville, Morris Park, Dunton
Make that 31. I forgot there were two Woodhaven stations, one on the Flatbush Ave. line and one on the Rockaway Beach line.
Wasn't there a proposal to reopen Woodhaven?
[Wasn't there a proposal to reopen Woodhaven?]
I haven't heard of one, although it might not be an entirely bad idea.
Good idea! Nice looking station buried down there, too (beige tile with violet tablets). It would need a good scrubdown, some better lights (the wiring and conduits are all in place) and probably some rehabilitation near the entrances. Pick a line (i.e. West Hempstead, Hempstead) to service it and have everybody else skip it.
Wayne
>>>>Good idea! Nice looking station buried down there, too (beige tile with violet tablets). It would need
a good scrubdown, some better lights (the wiring and conduits are all in place) and probably some
rehabilitation near the entrances. Pick a line (i.e. West Hempstead, Hempstead) to service it and
have everybody else skip it. <<<<
It would bring the number of active underground LIRR stations to two, unless you count Flatbush Avenue, which has been exposed somewhat by excavations around it.
No. Three. Penn Sta. and Flatbush Ave. are both underground.
No, I think Kevin was being a little sarcastic as you now can see some daylight and even a piece of the new mall at Flatbush Av. But then I guess under that reasoning the IRT station would not be underground either since its on the same level!!
Here's a question about the Panama Canal Zone.
What is that empty area alongside the Manhattan bound local platform, on the Bergen Street End? I know that curve on the Nevins end is for the Mineola.
Wayne, when it was open in the sixties there were only 2 or 3 trains that stopped there each way.
Yes, I know - perhaps that in and of itself is why nobody used it.
Wayne
Which came first, the chicken or the egg or the chicken or the egg or the chicken or the . . . ?
THE PIG!
Since the closing of the station came roughly about the same time as the start of the M-1's could there be a correlation there?
[Since the closing of the station (Woodhaven) came roughly about the same time as the start of the M-1's could there be a correlation there?]
I don't see how - there was no reason why the M-1's couldn't serve the station.
A more likely explanation is that the closing of the LIRR Rockaway line left Woodhaven largely superfluous. What about the fact that more than a decade passed between the end of the Rockaway line and Woodhaven's closing? I'd attribute that mainly to the fact that the LIRR was and is a slow-moving bureaucracy. And don't forget that the MTA came into being during those years, which probably slowed the decision-making process even more. Finally, closing Woodside was unlikely to have been on the top of any must-do list, as the costs of keeping it open probably weren't much.
Bob...You forgot the Westbridge station, located at Jamaica Ave. on the main line from Penn. Sta., right before the Jamaica station.
Carl M.
Correct! (that's 32)
I was in the NYPL main branch map room the other day (a must for any NYC history or transit buff) and asked to see a 1922(!) Hagstrom of Brooklyn. I noticed that the LIRR Bay Ridge Branch was still an active passenger line in those days, though by then only a few stops like Rugby and Kouwenhoven were open by then.
The Queens Hagstrom from 1923 had similar fascinating revelations. I was all set to get it copied for use on
www.forgotten-ny.com
when the clerk informed me that because of the great age of the maps they couldn't risk putting them on the drum roll copier. Just as well, the Langenscheidt (Hagstrom's parent company) hired liars woulda been all over me no doubt, if Forgotten ever became a real mioneymaking operation.
Thief! Thief!
[If you want to go back to, say, 1930, I count 30 closings in Queens:
Union Hall St., Hillside, Bellaire, Springfield Gardens, Grand St., Winfield, Rego Park, Parkside, Matawok, Brooklyn Manor, Ozone Park, Elmhurst, Corona, Flushing – Bridge St., College Point, Malba, Whitestone, Whitestone Landing, Cedar Manor, Higbie Ave., Richmond Hill, Glendale, Fresh Pond, Haberman, Penny Bridge, Union Course, Woodhaven, Clarenceville, Morris Park, Dunton]
Better not let Claire Shulman know ...
By the way, where was Clarenceville?
Clarenceville was an old name for Richmond Hill. I guess they kept the name on the Atlantic Ave. line to distinguish it from Richmond Hill on the Long Island City line.
Ok, so that would mean the Clarenceville, Morris Park and Dunton stations were all there when the LIRR line was at grade (no evidence of any in the current tunnel, only Woodhaven).
Where was Union Course and Matawok? Since you have Matawok in with the Rockaway Branch stations, was it between Parkside and Brooklyn Manor?
Higbie Avenue - wasn't that Freight Only?
Wayne
Matawok was just east of White Pot Junction on the Main Line.
Union Course was between 81st and 82nd Sts. on the Altantic Ave. Line.
You may be right about Higbie Ave. in later years, but I have a timetable from 1911 that shows passenger service at "Springfield (Higbie Ave.)"
Hey Bob, what about the Raunt?
I didn't include it since it is on the part that is now serviced by by the subway.
>>>Long Island City<<<
LIC is still open for limited service...
This post is rather long. It is a question to the experts here at SubTalk regarding something that happened during my ride home tonight. Please tell me where I went wrong.
I was coming home to Woodhaven from downtown Manhattan with 3 other people whom I do not know all that well. We got on a J train at Fulton Street at about 6:30pm.
The train got only as far as Essex Street when an announcement came on saying that, due to a switching problem at Broadway/Myrtle, this J would be taken out of service. Passengers were advised to take other routes, since the delay could be lengthy.
So, I quickly suggested that we go downstairs to catch a Brooklyn-bound F to Jay Street, where we could then take the A to Queens.
Good plan, agreed everyone in my party. The F and the A each arrived within minutes, and we were on our way. The only remaining point of debate was whether to take the A all the way to Rockaway Blvd. and get a bus up to Jamaica Avenue, or to get off the A at Broadway Junction and get a J train.
I was in favor of getting off at Broadway Junction. Of course, all things being equal, I will take a train over a bus every time. In this case, however, the choice seemed even clearer than ususal that the J would be better than the bus up Woodhaven Blvd.
I figured that, once the problem at Broadway/Myrtle was cleared up, there would be several backed-up J (and M) trains coming in rapid succession. So, I reasoned, the wait for the J at Broadway Junction will be negligible.
After convincing my fellow travelers (all of whom wanted to take the A all the way to Rockaway Blvd.) of the soundness of my reasoning, we got off the A at Broadway Junction, and went up the escalator to the J platform.
As we got to the J platform, an uncommonly packed J was closing its doors and pulling out. One passenger was heard to say, "Waited a f---ing half hour for this sh--!"
I was feeling confident that my plan was working perfectly as my party and I strode down the platform. It seemed very likely to me that the J that had just left was the first one through after the problem at Broadway/Myrtle was remedied. That's why the disgruntled passenger had been waiting for "a f---ing half hour".
Therefore, I figured, that plethora of backed-up J trains was about to begin passing through the station, and we would see the next one any minute.
After 15 minutes passed, I was starting to get a sinking feeling, and I was receiving dirty looks from my travel mates. Still, I was somewhat confident that a J would come imminently.
Didn't happen.
After a HALF HOUR of standing there on the rapidly-filling platform, the people I was with finally got fed up. We actually walked back down to the A platform and, within five minutes, caught the next A train to Queens.
Left unspoken (but not unindicated by body language) was the group's unanimous opinion that I was one of the great jerks of our time.
My question is: What happened?!?!? Where did all those backed-up J trains go?
I mean, even a delay of only 10 or 15 minutes would be enough to bunch up the subsequent J and M trains, wouldn't it? And I *KNOW* that I got to Broadway Junction much faster via the F/A combo than I would have even on a non-delayed J.
So, there should have been backed-up J's arriving in rapid succession. Yet, the wait at Broadway Junction was many times LONGER than usual! Huh?? Where did all of the backed-up J's disappear to?
The J train that I was on was taken out of service; is it possible that the next several consecutive J trains were also taken out of service? I highly doubt it.
So, can someone explain what may have happened, and why my plan to catch a backed-up J train failed?
Thanks for listening.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Just a thought - could the J you saw have been at Broadway/Myrtle when the switch problem developed? If so, it might have been delayed there and been the last train sent through.
Sometimes we overthink a problem and begin to make assumptions that turn out to be invalid. Having been in your shoes many times, I just took the position that, if I catch something and its moving and going in my direction, stay with it. Your strategy of catching all the backed up J trains was obviously undermined by some circumstance that the announcement at Essex Street didn't report or foresee.
BTW, what alternative routes did the Essex St. announcement tell you to take, and did it state or imply that J service was normal at Broadway Junction?
You are absolutely right about "overthinking", and about the practice of staying with the thing you have. A "bird in the hand" sort of thing.
Also, the announcement at Essex Street didn't really suggest anything substantive, beyond the reminder that the F train was available downstairs.
I asked a motorman about J service at Broadway Junction and beyond, and he said that he thought (but didn't know for sure) that it was normal.
So, armed only with partial information and unwarranted assumptions (the classic recipe for disaster), I proceeded.
Next time a situation like this arises, I am STAYING ON THE A! First of all, the Woodhaven Blvd. bus (Q11)is not too bad. Additionally, staying on the A will help me avoid that stretch of J track from 1893, which is the single scariest thing that I have learned from reading NYCSubway.org.
Ferdinand Cesarano
The J trains may have been running in 2 sections. East and west of the problem. There must have not been enough trains or something.
Maybe there was a hole on the bridge and trains were falling into the river.
(Sorry, but you did ask where the backed-up J's disappeared to.)
Wrong bridge.-)
I had to do a reverse commute today on the LIRR. They had a flyer on every seat announcing a public forum on the east side (GCT) access issue. The flyer said service will be provided direct to GCT via the existing 63rd Street Tunnel Connection. What existing 63rd Street Tunnel Connection? I thought that was a subway connection or are there 2 63rd st. tunnels.
Also, when coming back into the city tonight, the train was flying and I mean SOOOO much faster than normal. The lights were flying by and the pressure in my ears was pretty bad, I still feel it now almost an hour later. What's the speed limit in the tunnel?
The 63rd St tunnel is two-level. Two tracks above another set of two tracks. It was designed for subway service on one level and rail on the other.
I dunno what was wrong with the Engineer, but My friend is A locomotive engineer 4 the LIRR, and he says that the speed limit is around 30 or less. Plus the Default signals are speed timed. I dunno how ur Engineer got away with that. Plus upon exiting the tunnel however, the speed limit is 70 ususally.
I dunno what was wrong with the Engineer, but My friend is A locomotive engineer 4 the LIRR, and he says that the speed limit is around 30 or less. Plus the Default signals are speed timed. I dunno how ur Engineer got away with that. Plus upon exiting the tunnel however, the speed limit is 70 ususally. By the way was it a M-3 or a Dual mode Locomotive? where was the Train headed?
the MTH catalogues are out Vol 2 2000
In the Railking section are R-21's set of four m.s.r.p $199.95 and 299.95.
They look real neat on paper . Due date Novenber 2000.
Kevin, First thanks you for your excerpts from the article and thoughtful comments. I also noticed that you identified the publication & author of the article but I feel I should offer a word of caution to all of us so we don't get ourselves or our host Dave in trouble.
The Copyright law holds that anything published after 1978 can't be quoted by more then 400 words without the expressed permission of the author/publication. Less then that you MUST credit the source/author.
However tables, charts & figures are NOT included in this 400 word exception.
P.S. You probally have noticed that I frequently lift comments from some article that I've read, but am always mindful of how far I can go before potentially creating a problem. I do this to alert/share with my SubTalk/BusTalk friends and appreciate when they do the same. There have been many subjects of great interest to me that I wouldn't have had the opportunity to learn about/obtain if it wasn't for the free exchange that occurs here.
Mr t__:^)
Can anyone suggest the best subway route from the Port Authority Bus Station to 80 Centre St. , which is near Foley Square? Thanks for your help!!
you can pick up the 8th ave subway at the port
authority--- take an a or c downtown to chambers
street--- you'll have to walk from chambers and
church east to broadway then to centre--- once by
city hall you can walk about 4 blocks north passing
reade, duane, thomas, and worth---
when you pass reade and duane streets-- look out for a duane reade drugstore--- they are all over the place :-)
Heypaul, they may be all over the place; but there is no Duane Reade drugstore between Duane and Reade on Centre Street. Nor for that matter does Thomas Street reach Centre Street. If you start walking East at Chamers and Church, you never pass City Hall; you pass the Tweed Courthouse between Broadway and Centre.
Otherwise, your instructions are perfect.
BTW, the Duane Reade is on Broadway, as is the intersection with Thomas Street.
don't bother me with details :-)
as far as duane reade drugstores, i mentioned it in the post when i realized that duane and reade street were right next to each other--- is that how they got the name of the chain?---
as far as thomas st. not reaching centre st., i wouldn't know about that--- i have never been in manhattan and base all my knowledge about the city on my trusty hagstrom street guide and information that i pick up on my cat whisker radio decoder ring---
Thomas never got down to Centre (it's always marginal, such a shame). Well, back in not my day, Thomas upon reaching Great George Street, would immediately become Pearl Street. Eventually, Pearl was shortened to end at the Street by the name of the Marquis de LaFayette by the construction of a building to house the local workings of the federation. Today, it ends at the street marking the Centre of the island of Manhattan.
Is the welded rail replacement program dead, or is there a schedual to do the entire system?
How come curves are not wedled? I understand curves wear faster,but couldn't sections of 78ft rails be used to replace worn track and reduce noiseand impact? What amount of pressure is on the bearings at each unwelded joint? I noticed that the noise and wear seems greatest at insolated joints not over a tie.
I just took a look at the ungodly mess on Fourteenth Street @ Broadway caused by yet another in the city's endless series of water main breaks. L service has been suspended and the N/R are running on Sixth Avenue. Lexington trains are still running, but I've heard that there are some delays. And let's not forget the absolute chaos on ground level ...
I heard the "L" is running as far as Bedford Avenue - but where does THAT leave everybody trying to get into Manhattan? And where are they turning the "N"'s they're supposedly running up 6th Avenue? Better idea would have been instead of running the "N" up 6th Avenue, turn it at Whitehall Street and run some of the "L"s up 6th Avenue via Broadway Brooklyn, Essex Street and B'way Lafayette.
I take it this will be an ongoing situation throughout the day...
Wayne
[I heard the "L" is running as far as Bedford Avenue - but where does THAT leave everybody trying to get into Manhattan?
I take it this will be an ongoing situation throughout the day...]
Well, uh, maybe the L riders can scavenge old lumber on the Williamsburgh waterfront and build rafts to cross the East River :-)
By the looks of it, I suspect that disruptions will continue for a while.
the chuds would have to relocate!
but at least go past 14th St, turn around 21st Queensbridge.
what's a chud????????
Sounds like a special breed of skell that lives in the tunnel between Essex Street and B'way Lafayette.
Wayne
Scam women with bandaid on face!
L riders could get off at Lorimer St and take the G to Hoyt St for the A or C. Also, take the G to Queens Plaza for E or F service.
Ever try getting onto a "F" at Queens Pza or an "A" at Hoyt? Sardines. They'd have been better off walking. No shuttle bus to Marcy, eh?
Hope the water didn't damage things in the "L" station. The white tile is new and the original stuff at the top has been nicely restored. Newscast showed a Slant R40 getting a bath from the cascading water. Wonder if that train was damaged. They said the "L" train was running through there but skipping Union Square.
Wayne
I thought only the R was running on sixth, and the N is turning at 34 and whitehall, for N and S respectively....What good does it do you to reroute the N trains on sixth, it's still not possible to reach the astoria line, right? Also some F's were being diverted over the crosstown line, to ease up congestion on the 6ave line. It took a wicked long time to get onto the MannyB this morning, so it must have been way over capacity.
Question: Is there a staffed tower at DeKalb? If not would they bring in a leverman for a situation like this morning?
dave
It took me an hour to get from 71 Cont. to Queens plaza, on an E, then when I trans to and A at 42 a D followed my E on the local tracks.
I've never understood this routing -- there's no way to get the trains back onto the BMT if they don't cross under 53rd street. (until Coney Island) They need to (re?)build a crossover between B1 and B3 between West 4 and B.Way Lafayette and this would be fixed. The same thing happened when Seventh ave station flooded last fall
dave
Technically there is - route them to Rutgers Street tunnel then cross over north of Jay and then down the "F" line to Coney Island, if the switch north of West 4th cant handle the traffic.
Wayne
Now they have less flexibility since they removed some of the rails from the diamond crossover north of Jay Street. If the F falls apart south of W4 St, they cannot send them down Eighth Ave to Jay St. It looks like another switch project is starting.
But there's no need to switch over north of Jay St. The Rutgers tunnel tracks lead directly to the Smith St.-South Brooklyn and Culver lines.
I stand corrected. What the hell was I thinking?
Wayne
I think you meant the Cranberry tunnel, not the Rutgers tunnel.
subfan
Oh, perhaps a stuffed train on a brutally hot day, the heat on, etc.-)
When it was built, the route from upstairs to downstairs (southbound) at West 4th was a good move because it would take you back down the "F" line. which was pretty much a reroute for trains to get to Jay St. Remember, when the IND was built, there was no provision for it to go over the Manhattan Bridge. Grand Street and the Chrystie connection didn't enter service till 1967.
Yes, but now that chrystie street IS built, there should be a way to get from 8th ave to the MannyB and there currently is not...
If something goes wrong between 59th/8th and 42nd/6th, like the flood, the D and B have no southbound service at all
db
I saw a Brooklyn bound D on the local track at 34th/8th this morning. I imagine it was there to free up space along 6th Ave.
Chuck
I saw one too about 9:30
As of about 12:30 pm, the N and R were back to normal service. The L is still out, though.
As I got off the #4 train this morning at Union Square, there were all sorts of announcements about the water main break and what people's alternatives were.
What I found kind of funny was they kept telling people to "use the IRT."
I wonder how many people this confused since they didn't give any additional information such as "use the Lexington Ave IRT" or the "IRT 4,5,6"
Of course, I knew what they meant.... :)
as of this morning i still have not heard from
salaamallah about meeting with him saturday morning
to do a filming of the canarsie line--- he was
travelling by car from la--- i gave him directions
for the scenic route through fairbanks alaska, so
perhaps he will be a tad delayed
doug, aka juniors cheesecake man, has suggested that
a group of people interested in either riding the
canarsie line or listening to me flame all the
people i have wanted to ( but haven't out of fear of
being held for decimation of character) meet about
1 PM perhaps at 8th ave and 14th st on the 10th step
of staircase m24--- the exact location and time is
still being decided---
be sure to bring a chainsaw, blowtorch, and a 30
foot extension ladder in case of unforeseen
obstacles---
seriously--- if you would like to meet up with
several of the greatest subtalkers as well as me,
keep your eye(s) on this message board....
Today (THURSDAY) is March 2nd -- Saturday is March 4th on all the calendars (including Bill Newkirk's subway calendar) around my house!
okay--- give me a break--- my calculations were thrown off by it being a leap year--- and don't come back and tell me that leap year is only 1 extra day--- on my calendar which is based on the lunacy cycle, there are 2 extra days in a leap year ( with the exception of 2008 when there are 5 extra days )
To maximize the benifit of salaamallah's short visit to NYC and the L, maybe heyPaul should ride in the last car with camera and sound recording device in hand, while the rest of the group would be at the front rail fan window of the Slant 40 ;-)
Seriously, have a great time, sorry I have to miss this one.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, we'll expect your honored company on one of the other trips that I'm sure are likely to be planned at a later date.
BTW, I sincerely hope the DEP gets the water-main break situation under control by tomorrow so that our scheduled ride with salaam on the L Train is not thwarted.
This morning's rush had ALL Manhattan-bound trains terminating at Bedford Ave. It was almost as bad as the Willy B. Closure maddness!
Doug aka BMTman
in the event the tunnel remains flooded on saturday,
i have arranged with the central park boat rental to
rent 3 canoes--- this way we can get from 8th ave to
bedford ave by canoe, beach them at bedford, and
proceed to rockaway parkway by electric power---
i also have one of our trusty scouts on the lookout
for another appearance of the r110's on the canarsie
line--- if he spots it again, he will lead us on
this once in a lifetime opportunity--- be sure to
bring your cameras on saturday to record the
event--- last time no one had a camera and people
thought that the sighting was a frigment of his imagination..
At least the 14th street staion will be nice and clean...
I hope to be able to attend I am dying to meet some of you
Peace,
Andee
Heypaul, you didn't say anything about your gas grill.-)
I'll be with all of you in spirit. Have fun!
Back about the late 60's, the SIRT had a car shortage. Anybody remember how many and what type of LIRR cars where borrowed and for how long?
quez is worth 10 pts towards final.
SIRT used 2500-series LIRR cars for a couple of weeks back in 1972.
I don't think more than a total of ten cars were involved.
Wayne
By the way, how did those units get out to SIRT?
-Stef
I would guess they were car floated out, perhaps from Bay Ridge.
Wayne
I beleive Ping-pongs were used for the TO,s not sure.
03/02/2000
Nope, the (MP-54) Ping Pongs weren't used. The MP-72's (#2500's) were used. They were surplus with arriving M-1's. I gues the LIRR wanted to have a standard type electric MU. Also at that time, the MP-72's were fast becoming the recently retired "push-pull" diesel coach fleet.
Bill Newkirk
Does the MP-72 or MP-54 mean MU passenger 54ft long, MU passenger 72ft long?
What happened to the low profile deisel coaches, I think they where Known as Worlds Fair cars?
Were they once self powered, electric that is? How long where they?
03/03/2000
Avid reader,
1) The "MP" designation stands for "motorized passenger", for the type of coach. This was an old Pennsylvania Railroad custom, which the LIRR was a part of years ago.
2)The low profile "World's Fair" or "Zip" cars, AKA MP-85, were the first to be retired with the arrival of the new bi-level fleet. You never saw these once MU, push-pull converts in a full consist. they were always mixed with the ex-MP-72's (taller roof cars). They had horrendous brakes and had to be mixed with the others.
3)The MP-85 were delivered as electric MU's with cab and non cab cars in time for the 1964-65 World's Fair. Yes, they were 85 feet long. I don't know whether they were scrapped or bought by tourist railroads. The ex-MP-72's were.
Bill Newkirk
LOL
Avid Reader: A total of five cars of what I believe was called the MP-54 class were transfered to SIRT. There were on SIRT property from May 1972 until the later part of 1973. They were used as a two car set and a three car set. The numbers were 2505,2509,2517,2646 and one other.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I rode those LIRR units when they were on the SIRT system. As said by Larry,RedbirdR33 there was a total of five cars, a two car and three car setup. They had to space them out in the schedule because they had doors only at the ends and with the two/three seating it made boarding slow. I know they were longer than the SIRT 67 foot MU's, which made station positioning different.
I recall when I moved to the island in 1960 the SIRT had a fleet of 60 MU's for the South Shore line. They had sent some off to Brooklyn when they gave up the South Beach and North Shore lines. A bad fire in the Clifton yards in the early sixties cost them 7 MU's. The rest just deteriorated due to old age until they were running the line with just 22 cars. Then the five LIRR's showed up in 1972. Running that line with 22 cars made rush hours a trip. I would get on in Huguenot Park bound for the ferry on a two car train and usually that was the last stop except for Oakwood & New Dorp where there are two high schools. The B&O finally had to give up the line.
I rode those LIRR units when they were on the SIRT system. As said by Larry,RedbirdR33 there was a total of five cars, a two car and three car setup. They had to space them out in the schedule because they had doors only at the ends and with the two/three seating it made boarding slow. I know they were longer than the SIRT 67 foot MU's, which made station positioning different.
I recall when I moved to the island in 1960 the SIRT had a fleet of 60 MU's for the South Shore line. They had sent some off to Brooklyn when they gave up the South Beach and North Shore lines. A bad fire in the Clifton yards in the early sixties cost them 7 MU's. The rest just deteriorated due to old age until they were running the line with just 22 cars. Then the five LIRR's showed up in 1972. Running that line with 22 cars made rush hours a trip. I would get on in Huguenot Park bound for the ferry on a two car train and usually that was the last stop except for Oakwood & New Dorp where there are two high schools. The B&O finally had to give up the line.
I have a favor to ask of all, I am in the process of updating my map collection and I need those that live in ALL cities that have transit systems, NOT JUST NYC, and I'd like maps of all types of systems (light rail included).
I really appreciate this
Thank You,
Mark Greenwald
232 W. Fairview Street
Piedmont, WV 26750-1106
In Case anyone is interested the following Long Island Engines were being moved around and possibly out of the yard at the New York Cross Harbor
274, 267, & 264 they were being moved by NYCHRR Engine # 11
This happened a couple of times at Main Street. The start lights (string of 3 green lights hanging from ceiling) come on, the doors close, and the train just sits there for about a minute while the signal stays at Red/Red. During this time, the doors stay closed. Why don't the doors re-open to let waiting passengers get on until the signal clears?
Don't the T/O's signal two buzzes when the Home Ball clears?
Actually what happens is the start lights come on, the train doors close, and the train just sits there waiting for the signal to clear. Pretty dumb, don't you think?
a-yup.
Seeing as how common sense has been pretty much legislated out of existence, it doesn't surprise.me.
Train being run by people who have no sense.... (IMHO)
Starting lights, as defined in the rules and regulations, as well as holding lights, are displayed by supervision, therefore to an extent overruling the communications between the T/O and Conductor. The lights apply ONLY to Conductors and One Person T/Os. On the Flushing Line where headways are maxed at under two minutes, an act of holding doors open until the Home Signals clears delays service more. The extra few seconds allows the trains to fill up, delaying service down the line. Some if not most terminals with automatic interlockings like 207 Street and Far Rockaway should automatically clear the home signals when the starting light buttons are pushed. Hope that helps.
When I was at Queens Plaza this morning they were re-routing R trains onto D3 because of the water main break. As we pulled in an R was on the local, doors closed. There appeared to be a lot of people trying to get on. Someone announced over the P.A. system "The operator of the R train must wait for his line-up with the doors closed." I'm assuming the interlocking wouldn't let him cross onto the express track until it was sure the train I was on was going to stop in time.
How many people who heard that announcment even know the term line up?
And I bet most of the time, the train is on M track and you're standing on the island plat shared with 2 track? In that case, the CR is closing down the other side of the train.
The 3-7 trip that was supposed to be taken has been CANCELLED and will be rescheduled on a Saturday at a later date. Sorry for any inconvenience :(
R36Gary
Thank YOU for th report........
Which Lines does the Long Island Railroad have that aren't Electrified? is the Montauk line Electrified? and if not, Do any M-3 or M-1 electrics go to Patchogue or Speonk at least? Also when you see a Signal(position) that says 3 yellow lights across over another Signal that diagonally shows 3 yellow lights(similar to an approach signal) what does that mean? For example, A Train from Hempstead to Flatbush avenue is headed up Archer avenue toward the Jamaica station. At Guy R Brewer Boulevard, where the signals are, Ususally I always see a signal displaying Stop over Approach. What does that mean? Also, since The LIRR got the DM30AC's, how do you activate the Dual-mode Feature upon entering the Under river tunnel which leads to Penn Station? Also do all the Dual-modes go to Penn Station or do they send some to Flatbush Avenue? Also those Trains where the BI-levels are the head end where the Engineer is Driving the Bi-level and a DE30AC is Tailing on the back, are those considered Electric or Diesel? Can they go to Penn station or no? Please Email me or Post a Response in the Railfan room. Email is E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com
I believe the following lines are not electrified:
Montauk line from Babylon to Montauk
Main Line from Ronkonkoma to Greenport
Port Jefferson line from Hicksville to Port Jeff
Central branch from Hicksville to Babylon
Oyster Bay line from East Williston to Oyster Bay
The Long Island City line from Jamaica to LIC.
I'm sure they're just typo's, but:
"Port Jefferson line from Hicksville to Port Jeff
Central branch from Hicksville to Babylon"
should read:
Port Jefferson line from Huntington to Port Jeff
Central Branch from the Main Line cutoff to Babylon.
Chuck
Yes, you are correct! Thanks for assuming they were just "typo's" :-)
And the Main Line cutoff is Bethpage.
The main line is electrified from Hicksville to Huntington.
>Which Lines does the Long Island Railroad have that aren't
>Electrified?
Ronkonkoma to Greenport (4 trains a day)
East Wiliston to Oyster Bay (a few more trains a day)
Babylon to Montauk (Not many)
Huntington to Port Jeff (Lots - probbly next line to get electrified)
And that short connector between the Babylon and Ronkonkoma line - I think the LIRR's thinking of doing that and out to Speonk in a few years (fingers crossed :)
>Is the Montauk line Electrified?
Only to Babylon.
>and if not, Do any M-3 or M-1 electrics go to Patchogue or Speonk at
>least?
No - The LIRR's probbly tried it though. (they once routed a Ronkonkoma train to Babylon over the non-electric Central branch between the two) The electrics all (normally ;) terminate at Babylon though.
>Also when you see a Signal(position) that says 3 yellow lights across
>over another Signal that diagonally shows 3 yellow lights(similar to
>an approach signal) what does that mean?
Slow approach, I think.
The LIRR's weird though. Position light signals every mile or so, AND cab signals. Don't they have some non cab and dark territory too still? I think the leaning tower of PD is still standing...
>Also, since The LIRR got the DM30AC's, how do you activate the Dual-
>mode Feature upon entering the Under river tunnel which leads to Penn
>Station?
You don't. About the only thing the LIRR did that was smart with those locos is they made them to run for extended periods in electric mode. Thus, the train's supposed to switch over once it enters electric territory. A switch on the console does that.
Switching at Babylon / East Williston / Huntington is a Good Thing (tm) because that way - if the loco can't switch, it doesn't tie up all the traffic.
And electrics are just plain cooler :)
And it's fun to watch diesel fans freak as they watch what looks like a diesel blast through the station nearly silently. "Where's the noise and smoke ?!?" :)
>Also do all the Dual-modes go to Penn Station or do they send
>some to Flatbush Avenue?
They can't fit into the tunnels to FBA.
> Also those Trains where the BI-levels are the head end where the
>Engineer is Driving the Bi-level and a DE30AC is Tailing on the
>back, are those considered Electric or Diesel?
Those are diesels. All the LIRR's true electrics are MUs - and single level (the double decker MUs are long since gone) It *is* possible to put a DM-30 on those and run them as electrics, but this isn't done because the train can get stuck in 3rd rail gaps.
>Can they go to Penn station or no?
No. All dual modes that enter Penn must have a locomotive at each end to prevent gapping as they enter Penn station. This is per Amtrak's rules I believe. Yes, Amtrak runs singles into Penn, yes, they probbably do get stuck, but let's face it, Amtrak isn't exactly fair to anyone but themselfs in Penn station.
[I think the leaning tower of PD is still standing...]
Yes, it's still standing and still leaning! I took this picture just a few days ago on President's Day.
Why the heck does Amtrak mandate 2 locos. A DM-30 can't gap, its DUAL MODE. Train = gap, Diesel = on, train = go. If they are worried about gaping just leave the engine in idle. If they are worried aboot fumes NJT leaves its Atlantic City trains ideling under 30th St. for extended periods and they don't cause people to get CO poisoning. Even right next to the loco you don't notice anything in the air. Also does anybody know a website with LIRR pics (nycsubway.org excluded).
[Also does anybody know a website with LIRR pics]
LIRR History Website
[>Which Lines does the Long Island Railroad have that aren't
>Electrified?
Ronkonkoma to Greenport (4 trains a day)
East Wiliston to Oyster Bay (a few more trains a day)
Babylon to Montauk (Not many)
Huntington to Port Jeff (Lots - probbly next line to get electrified)
And that short connector between the Babylon and Ronkonkoma line - I think the LIRR's thinking of doing that and out to Speonk in a few years (fingers crossed :)]
In addition, the lower Montauk line in Queens (Jamaica to Long Island City) is non-electrified. Not that it matters much, as it only has a couple of trains a day :-)
I might be wrong but I think the duals run diesel all the way to the tunnel. They definitely are loud while at Jamaica.
Are the Redbirds the last trains that are not stainless steel? If so, I wonder what the incentive will be to scrap B division trains as the R-143s arrive.
I saw a Transit Transit program on the new "Millenium Cars" the other day. The TA has upped the estimated life to 40 years -- a good thing, given how much they cost. Other than the redbirds, are there any cars that can't make it to 2010?
I'm not sure, but the R40/42 series has some rusting problems because they're not completely built of stainless steel. I don't think it's bad enough to stop any of them from running another 10 years. As for the R38's, I'm sure their roof problems could be dealt with using some type of patchwork.
Only the R46 and up have all-stainless bodies. The R44 have a carbon-steel band (the paint stripe, I don't no why) along the body. The R38/40/42 have steel roofs, I'm not sure of the R32. The roofs are all patched with bondo, aluminum foil, and duct tape.
-Hank
I believe the R32 is also all-stainless.
The R38, R40, R40M and R42 are "composites".
Some of the roofs on the CI R40s are quite a sight, all kinds of welds, patches, etc. on them. The ENY R40s are in better shape but quite a few of them have seen the Bondo Squad too.
Wayne
What exactly IS Bondo anyway?
Bondo is a trade name for what is generally referred to as body putty.
Some PCC cars have literly been held together by Bondo. Much of the P&W fleet in Philadelphia lived the last few years of their lives with copious amounts of Bondo. IRM removed several hundred pounds of Bondo during the Electroliner rebuild.
AH! The chewing gum part of "Spit and Chewing Gum."
If you've ever used cement which comes in two separate tubes and the two compounds (epoxy resin and catalyst/hardener) need to be mixed together, that's basically what Bondo is. The trick is not using too much of it. It's intended to fill in small holes and irregular spots on fenders and body panels which have gotten dented and subsequently smoothened out.
That being the case, I can see why the TA wants the 600 new cars. Recall that end of the 1980s, they wanted to go to a constant purchase of 150 to 200 cars per year. Then a recession, fiscal mismanagement and SHAZAM no new cars for 10 years.
Looking at the operating budget cash deficit, and the huge amount of city, state and MTA debt, I don't believe there will be a capital plan after 2004. At least it will be far scaled back. I'll bet that if a car can't last to 2015, they want it replaced by 2004, in case they have to go a full decade without any new ones.
The R30s, R40s and R42s have to go, or at least become unneccessary in a severe cutback environment. Let say you hand the R32s, the R44-46, the R68, and the 750 or so R143s. How many cars would that leave, relative to today?
All stainless steel is definitely worth the money.
Here in Boston the 0600 Blue LIne cars are only 21 years old but they are in tough shape. The rooves leak due to the pans and grids on the roof, and the water trickes down inside the carbody and saturates the thermal insulation. From there it rusts the carbody from the inside out at the floorline. The cars are entirely cor-ten.
Right now they are putting a stainless steel sheet on top of the rooves with plenty of caulking, in an attempt to prolong the life of the cars some more. The eventual idea is to replace them and save the 24 best as 3 8-car Orange line trains. This would up the Blue LIne fleet from 70 to 94 cars, enough for 6-car trains.
R-32's were BUDD--who held the patent for the 'shotweld' process for stainless. The St. Louis and PS cars indeed contain other materials and thus have potential corrosion problems.
Interesting, in a class the other day (Machine design II), we got toff on a tangent about this. Apparently, stainless steel and anything else is a bad thing, because of some electrochemical reaction that takes place. In fact, a stainless body with a carbon steel frame turns out to be a REALLY bad idea.
Such problems likely exist with aluminum, but like stainless, the advantages of aluminum are much greater than ordinary steels, and besides, the areas of fatique and corrosion are pretty well known today, and thus it's possible to design around these problems.
Stainless-Carbon steel turns into a natural battery when wet. As such, just like the lead in a lead-acid battery, the metals will start to corrode VERY quickly. That's why I couldn't believe that the R44 had carbon-steel on the body.
-Hank
Here's a shameless plug for my sprint PCS Samsung 3500 cell phone. I was on a moving 4 train between Fulton and Wall St. and it started ringing! The signal wasn't that great but I was able to tell my friend "i'm on the subway, I'll call you back."
Also, last week I was waiting on the N/R platform at 34th Street and it rang and I had a full clear conversation. I know you can usually use a cell phone on some underground platforms that are very close to the surface (old IRT stations) but usually not deeper ones.
Anyway, I used to have AT&T Wireless which barely worked above ground let alone in the subway, so I guess sprint PCS is best for us railfans.
The Metro in DC has cells for Bell Atlantic in the tunnels. If you have a Bell Atlantic Phone, it should work anywhere in the DC Metro.
You're kidding!! I've always thought that would be great idea, and really help whatever company did that. Do they advertise it well? That must help BAM sales... I wish SprintPCS would do that in Philly.
it shouldn't bee that hard they already work in the Holland, Linclon, tunnels
The Holland and Lincoln tunnels are wired for phones - AT&T owns the wires.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
While we're on this subject:
Who here feels that cellphones should be BANNED from the system? I HATE it when I have to listen to conversations when I'm trapped in a subway car.
Would you ban people from talking to each other on the subway, too? Cripes! Like two people talking to each other in person is alright but someone talking on the phone is somehow much more disruptive?
I'm sure that most of the people who agree with you are people WITHOUT cell phones. I believe there was a survey done relating phone ownership and phone hatred.
Sorry to hear you had a disappointing experience with AT&T Wireless. I have their Digital One Rate plan, using a Nokia 6160, and have also had mine ring twice while underground in the system, once while on the southbound 4/5/6 platform at Brooklyn Bridge and once at South Ferry.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whether it works or not depends on how deep you are, and how close you are to the cell site. Somewhere, I saw a map of every cell site in the 5 boros....now where was it....
-Hank
That's correct. Riding the 7 train, my phone works up to the entrance of the tunnel at Vernon-Jackson. But when the train enters Hunters Point, the phone( StarTac dual band from Sprint ) switches from digtal to analog mode.
[so I guess sprint PCS is best for us railfans]
I have a Sprint PCS Samsung and I'm lucky if I can get a minute of conversation in before the call is dropped. I so rarely have service that even in Times Square I usually see the Power Save text. So I could never even hope to have a conversation on the subway. The only reason I stay with Sprint is that it's cheaper. But it's cheaper because the quality is so much poorer.
I, too have the Samsung 3500 with SPCS. In Philly, I can't get a signal in any center city MFL station, and most are barely under the street! I see other people using their phones on the platform all the time; I assume they have ATT or BAM...
How about the pay phones on the LIRR's new tri-levels? Do they work in the tunnel to Penn? Yeah I know there are only a few dual modes.
When the Chrystie street connection was built, why didn't they install an interlocking so that trains on the north side would still have to option of going to Canal street and Broadway in case of emergency....? Like this morning when there was extra heavy traffic on the bridge due to re-routings, or more generally, so if say, the south tracks were shut down for a bzillion years, the Broadway express stracks could still be used. (The downside is that junctions at grade cause bottlenecks in and of themselves.)
dave
When it was designed, nobody knew how bad the bridge would get, nor the monumental repair job that would be needed.
(When Chrystie was designed, no one knew how bad the bridge would get)
Maybe they just didn't want to know. The City's chief bridge engineer recommended taking trains off the bridge, or at least moving them to the center, in 1955 according to a summary of a report I read. No one did anything from 1955 to the start of construction on Chrystie St to change things, other than let the bridge rust. I think its a matter of lousy communication.
In retrospect, the sensible option would have been to:
1) Reconfigure the 2nd Avenue station to have the express tracks go through the Rutgers Tunnel, not the locals.
2) Build the Rutgers/DeKalb connection, as much discussed. This would have put one and perhaps two BMT services through to the 6th Avenue express, along with the Culver. If they had worked to keep capacity high, the F, D, B could just about fit today.
3) Extend the 6th Avenue Local tracks east to new terminal -- possibly to be extended to a Willie B replacement tunnel if needed, or a ferry terminal, at a later date.
4) Move two bridge tracks into the center, direct into the BMT Broadway express, and:
5) Somehow hook those DeKalb bypass tracks into the Montigue tunnel beyond Court St, to avoid the DeKalb, Lawrence, Court St crawl.
Given the added cost of construction in Manhattan, all that probably could have been done for the cost of Chrystie St.
That new terminal in Brooklyn could be S. 4th St. Heck, part of that station is already there.
And yet another not mutually exclusive option could have been (and still be) running the Brighton local on the route of the Franklin shuttle, lowering the shuttle route from north of Park Place to connect with the Fulton St. line, running it non-stop to Hoyt-Schermerhorn (adding at that junction station two extra tracks) and then through the Rutgers St. tunnel. That at least could have removed the Brighton locals from the DeKalb--Manhattan Bridge bottleneck.
Since the intent was to run trains on the north side up 6th Ave, it was probably deemed superfluous to put an interlocking in. ALso, the slope of the curve from the bridge to Grand St may have created a dangerous place to put an interlocking.
--Mark
I would like to know how Amtrak handles their Engineers. Say if an Engineer goes on a Train from New York headed for boston, does the same Engineer make that entire trip? Also, if U were an Engineer for Amtrak what benefits do you get? Also, what would your children or family think of you? Also how many hours do you work a week? Will you ever C ur Family? also an Amtrak Engineer told me that you have 2 get experience of operating a Train from another Railroad before you go to Amtrak? Would it be smarter to stay with Long Island Railroad or go to Amtrak? Thank you. Please post a Response or Email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com
There are crew change points, NYP being one of them on a WAS-BOS run. Long distance as well. I have a friend who works the Silver Services New York-Jacksonville-Miami (Meteor: #97, 98 Palm: #89, 90 Star: #91, 92 ) takes the train to
When traveling to Florida, I take the Auto Train from Lorton, VA. The service is non-stop, but a crew change and refueling is done at Florence, North Carolina. The process takes about a hour and is done around 1 am . ( If it's on schedule )
That's Florence, South Carolina.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oops, right city, wrong state. Thanks.
Hey trolley fans! There is a cute game out by "Challenge Products" called "Trolley Time Challenge". I just got mine through the Boston Railway Magazine (book section). You really have to be quick with the mouse. Close doors, ring gong, release brakes, and notch the controller up gradually. Do anything wrong or out of step, and you trip the circuit breaker. It's a lot of fun. I'm getting my stopping at stops with the air brakes pretty good, now. There are various routes you can try, also.
Chuck Greene
I hope they've gotten the bugs out of it now. I participated in a Beta test of it about three or four years ago - the concept was great but it had a lot of glitches then (guaranteed to dewire at any right-hand switch unless you tried to open the door - then it would take the switch just fine, among other bugs). Enjoyed it anyway but never bought a copy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I haven't played with it enough to find any bugs, yet! I'll keep you posted.
Chuck
How much was it?
I believe it was $39.95 plus $5 or so postage/handling from the
Boston Street Railway Association. Here is a link to their Web site. Click on
"catalog." Although I don't see the software on the current listing,
contact them via mail or email and they can give you the exact
info. My copy arrived within a week of ordering.
thanks!
Now we're talking!!! I am bona fide Rapid Transit Buff, but I've grown to appreciate the Streetcar Fleet which Shore Line possesses presently. What a way to become a streetcar pro. Now if they would just produce a simulator of ConnCo woody going down the road, I'd be happy. The trolley simulator might be good for those, who are interested in becoming trolley operators. Lou? Doug? Thurston?
It is now possible to sharpen our skills for the real world.
Now I'm starting to think that my friends at BERA should have a trolley car simulator to train new streetcar operators. Jeff, what about it?
-Stef
The Trolley Time Challenge game happens to be on the computer
in the office at the museum. I've played it and, well, let's
just say it is a video game based loosely on streetcar operation.
In particular, I tried to plug the car. It's a two-motor car
so I shut off power, then threw the reverser back. The virtual
circuit breaker popped. Um, not quite. That's OK, because
the circuit breaker had to be thrown anyway, but upon moving
to the first parallel point the car failed to enter dynamic
braking.
The Deng Xia De Go (I know I'm spelling it wrong) game on the
Japanese Nintendo is much better.
I bought mine through the Boston Street Railway Association (BSRA).
It's neat. I'd especially recommend it for folks who are planning
to attend "real" trolley operation training this year. It gets you
into the right line of thinking -- release the brake before starting,
ring the gong at the right times, etc. I especially like the fact
that the breaker pops if you notch up too fast!
i just got off the phone with salaam--- he is only going to be in new york through tomorrow, so it seems saturday with salaam is out--- i may try to meet him sometime tomorrow morning--- he will be calling me in the morning--- he told me he reshot the #5 but did not do the l or j as yet---
on a personal note--- i was surprised that he spoke without any capitals, exclamation points, or mention of railfan windows---
for people interested in meeting on saturday, it looks like 1 pm on the canarsie line l platform at 8th ave and 14th st near the head end of departing trains...
Sorry Paul, I'll be in R17 Muck III by then. Maybe next time. Please give some windex to salaam for me if you see him.
Actually, salaam has mellowed a bit of late. He's basically put the railfan window issue to rest, although I understand how he feels.
This happened Wednesday night around midnight to 12:30ish on the D going to Coney. We were stuck behind the money train (no not the one from the movie, I mean the Collector Train). It was getting a bit annoying and you could here it in the conductors voice as we were creeping from block to block.
When we get to Kings Highway, poof, there were three reveune agents with bags of (coins/tokens whatever) on the platform and the money train was down the track switched to express. Seems I guess they decided to ride the revenue train to Ave U and let the Money Train clear out of the way (switched to express).
Thank you TA, I hope this doesn't break any rules but Customer Service came first (should have done it at Prospect Park >G<).
It's no wonder someone didn't try and rip the agents off. Hey! Anything's possible.
-Stef
Hey, Stef, I could've really used the money to help in my efforts to purchase those HO scale R-38 cars!
In any event, best good wishes to you and LFB (Lou from Brooklyn) on the third go-round on the R-17.
Sorry, but prior commitments (to the 'salaam welcoming committee') prevents me from aiding you guys this weekend.
Doug aka BMTman
If you read heypauls post about salaam, he's not gonna be with you on Sat. He's apparently leaving NY Friday evening for Railfan windowless LA.
At least it was a D train. If it had been a Q, I know I would have been miffed.
My ride in this morning was a bit crazy. Crawled up 6th Ave (as normal) but got stuck on the F. Seems Lex Ave was OVERCROWDED with THREE trains dumping pax with the R reroute over the F.
At 5th Ave we were told the train would stop at Lex but would not open the doors unless the Police told the conductor it was okay.
At 23rd Ely, missplaced L commuters that just got of the G got on the Queens Bound F and were slightly upset they were going the worng way. Hey they got on the train, the otherside was wall to platform edge of people.
Queens Plaza did not look so hot as well, platform full of people.
Queens Boro Plaza was STUFFED with people waiting for N's and my bus stop in front of work (Queens Transit Buses and one NYCTA to Penn) was full of people, normally there is maybe one person here.
Intresting ride.
What kind of signals does NJT use on the lines leaving Hoboken.
There was a accident several years ago. A engineer ran a red light and apparently there was nothing to stop the train. Do they use a fixed block signal system like the NYCTA?
How about the Northeast Corridor? They use the signal like the LIRR?
On the LIRR the speed is indicated by small lit up numbers. On NJT do they use the same thing or is it a LED display?
On the LIRR is the max speed indicator have a zero at each end?
It would seem if they used lit numbers a zero at each end would make it easier to decifer.
Example: 0 7 for 7MPH and 5 0 for 50MPH.
New Jersey Transit uses standard 3 colour signals using the standard NORAC signaling system on all of its lines except the NEC which uses a mix of PRR position and retrofitted PRR colour position light signals. Most NJT lines are equipped with PRR style 4 speed cab signaling. I would also guess that its older GP-40 locomotives (rebuilt at Altoona) would use the Conrail position light cab signal interface and that its newer locomotives would use an Amtrak style colour PL w/ digital speed read-out or a simple colour light system w/ or w/o digital speed readout. Because NJT is a full NORAC member its CSS will be of the 4 speed system and will use either PL's or CL's in the cab. The LIRR is not a NORAC member and can use lit numbers only. Like all other railroads NJT uses a fixed block system, but cab signals over-ride the wayside signals so an engineer can act on different indications recieved in the same block. The 4 speed CSS system has SLOW as its slowest speed so a train can run red signals at speeds lower than 15 mph.
Here's a question for you. How does the LIRR cab-signal system work. I know it was installed as a PRR system (4 speed), but you make it sound like it has many more speeds. If it does, how do they do it?
I believe the LIRR's system was updated to include more than 4 indications. The number 7 sticks in my mind for some reason. BTW - the PRR's system might have been 4, but MP-54 #4137 (at Seashore) only displays 3 - 15, 30 and MAS. And no speedo. Go figure...
What does these sign mean? They are wayside on the LIRR ROW.
1) End Info Zone
2) Yellow signs with numbers on it (Example: 55) Speed?
3) Test ASC
4) Begin Info Zone
Begin and End Info Zone refer to wayside radio transmitters that broadcast informational announments to crewmembers on LIRR radio channel 4. Announcements are usually along the lines of "because of earlier problems, advise your passengers that there are delays out of Penn Station" or "be advised temporary platforms are in use at Woodside." The transmitters' power is low enough that they're usually only audible between the Begin and End Info Zone signs.
--Mike
Hi everyone, I have not given up on these subtalk awards. First I would like to thank all of you who sent in some Nominations. Seconds I would like to yell at all those people who have not sent in nominations. These awards can not work with out your input, Incase you forgot here are categories. A '+' indicated that I NEED NOMINATIONS for that category.
Best Thread ++++
Best Subtalker in a leading role ++++
Best Subtalker in a supporting role ++++
Best Subtalker in a technical or advisory role ++
Best Website Host
Funniest Subtalker +
Best Flamer ++
Best Impersonation of a Subtalker
Worst Transit Official ++
Worst Elected Official (transit wise) ++
Subway Criminal of the Year +
Best Subway Supporter ++
Best Subtalker in the field +++
Best Attached Pic..
Most creative handle
Most changed handle
Best contributed article ++++
Best contributed photos ++
Most prolific poster ++
Most prolific debator +++
Life time award ... Subtalker since day one & still active
Funniest Single Post ++++
Best Website Maintained by a Subtalker
Best Overseas Contributor ++
Technical Awards
Best Transit System + (I need something other than NYC!)
Best Forigen Transit System +
Best Subway Car (any system) ++
Best Subway Car (NYC) ++
Best Station (NYC) ++
Best Line (NYC) ++
Best Station (any system) ++
Best Line (any system) ++
Best Commuter Railroad
Best Interlocking Tower (need NYCS towers)
Best Yard +
Best New Transit Project (completed) (need something other than R33)
Greatest Transit Boondoggle (pending or completed)++
OK, to show you that I have been doing some work on this, the following categories are complete.
Best Attached Pic
-A BMT Lines Christmas
-Happy New Year by David Cole
-Satirical NYC subway signs by David Cole
-Transit Info banner
Most Changed Handle
-Pigs of Royal Island running unopposed
Most Creative Handle
-LIAR to New York Pig Station
-The "Humans" series (those w/ many names get more nominations)
-The Transit Professional Formerly known as Mr. R-46
-Anon_e_mouse
Best Commuter Railroad
-New Jersey Transit
-Long Island Rail Road
-Metro North
-MTBA
Intertionally left off- SEPTA
Best Yard
-Coney Island
-West Side
-Sunnyside
-139th St.
DON'T FEEL THAT THESE ARE CLOSED. I COULD ALWAYS USE MORE.
And some categories that NEED MORE NOMINAIONS.
Best Interlocking Tower
-HAROLD
-DOCK
-....
-....
Worst Subway Car
-R33 Single
-Boston 01400
-...
-...
E-mail Me!
Since 1944, the LIRR has used the unusual spelling Rail Road.
Why the change? I'd imagine it's an archaic rendering from when the LIRR got started in 1836...right?
I gotta go catch the Sub Way now.
--Walsh, For Gotten NY
The term Rail Road was common in the 19th century. After
all, you had a dirt road, a paved road, a rail road. A typical
charter might read: "The X Avenue Rail Road Company is authorized
to construct a rail road running from.....". The Rail Road was
the track. It wasn't until later in that century that the term
became shortened through common usage to Railroad and also included
the overall operation.
"Rail Road" for the LIRR that goes much further back than that. Apparently "Rail Road" was on the original incorporation papers. I've seen equipment photos and various paperwork at different times whch have "Rail Road" and "Railroad."
Spelling variations sometimes reflect corporate changes. Such changes happened on the SIRT over the years. A story I like to tell is that, when Silver Leaf wrote the SIRT book in 1965, it was the Staten Island Rapid Transit RailWAY. It happens that the SIRT itself sold the SIRT book at its St. George ticket office, and each month Silver Leaf received a check from the SIRT--on the envelope the return address said "Staten Island Rapid Transit RailROAD."
My point is, even documentary evidence isn't always the last word.
Amd just to make the point further, what is the legal name of the passenger operation on Staten Island today? If you said "Staten Island Railway" or "MTA Staten Island Railway," you would be wrong.
Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority..
ALL MTA agencys still retain their official names...
NYC Transit Authority..
Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority..
Metro-North Commuter Railrod...
Long Island Rail Road...
Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority...
Metropolitan Suburban Bus Authority
Staten Island Rapid Transit Operation Authority.
-Hank
You also have the dba issue, i.e. doing business as ....
e.g. The TA memo's I get say NYTC with no more AUTHORITY in the name that is, but they are still realy NYCTA officially.
Mr t__:^)
Last week, skeeting by the 181st Platform on the
Northbound 1, I noticed a sketching of "FEAR" in
giant silver letters on the brickwall of the
downtown side and thought "oh swell, how will
THAT come off"... this week on another skeet-by
I see the silver coloring has jobbed out to
erasure.. HOW??
At South Ferry recently, R-62 #2391 undershot
the Gap Filler and promptly opened it's doors
(with Gap Fillers unattached) and the T/O
quickly exited his cab as if to confer with
the Tower folks.. an announcement came over
the SF PA "don't exit the train" and followed
by a quick closure of the doors (clipping the
T/O in half-exit) before he realized the
Grand Canyon that stood between his train and the
Platform... shift forward.. Gap Fillers come out..
everyone smiles.. WHEEEEEW!!..
Sitting on a 2 (9154) I recently got my head
smacked right into the hinge on the panel behind
the control cab.. all from train motions.. sure
it might have hurt.. but to think it was a redbird
that bonked me made me smile and the pain went..
There was talk of the Transit Museum undergoing
"renovations".. I visited recently.. what is there
to fix/upgrade/change???????...
SouthFerry1/9
There was talk of the Transit Museum undergoing "renovations".. I visited recently.. what is there to fix/upgrade/change???????...
Better ADA compliance, improved ventilation (and A/C).
--Mark
When i went to the tranist museum (2 days ago) last they said that they were going to improve the buses and add a state of the art train simulation. Maybe to compeat with the Museum of Natural History's new addtions
Am I the only SubTALKer who finds themselves
INTENTIONALLY waiting for a REDBIRD?
Furthermore, are there any current REDBIRDS
running on the IRT 1/9 line? Read about a
recent sighting at 168th.. do any current
REDBIRDS still roam the 1/9 corridor??
YOU....Are not alone. I'll pass by a 4 for a 5 anytime. (My luck...today the 5 was a 62A!)
No. The 1/9 is R62 and/or R62As (never can tell them apart). You must have seen a 2 that was on the 1/9 for some reason.
The No.1,9 Line has a full R62A Fleet only. The R62'S are only on the No.4 Line.
I used to wait for R-62s on the 3 instead of Redbirds on the 2. I stopped doing that because I'd rather get home faster, and it's not like they're so different anyway.
And I did tell about the time when I was waiting, waiting, waiting for and R-62 at Grand Central and none came for a half hour so I just got on a Redbird 4. That I think is when I stopped the practice.
Practice random acts of kindness..
ride a redbird.. i do.
If I'm waiting for an express on, say, the West Side, I will take the first one which arrives whether it's a 2 or a 3. Naturally, I hope it's a 2 (hello, Redbirds, hello, Redbirds), but since R-62As with half cabs can still be had on the 3, it's no big deal.
I will let A trains of R-44s go by in the hope of getting an R-38 train if time allows. Funny thing: during my last two visits to the city, the subway part got off to a good start. I started out at W. 4th St. both times, and on each occasion an A train of R-38s pulled in first.
I can top that.Ill wait for a Redbird with an empty front window...(if possible.)...Just what,pray tell, does this have to do with Jim Bouton???
>...waiting for an express....West Side......
>....I will take the first one which arrives
>....whether it's a 2 or a 3.
You're no fun.
>(hello, Redbirds, hello, Redbirds)
Sing it again, Sam!
OK, So I'm late to class on this one..
what's the story behind the Polo Grounds
being "sealed up and walled"?????????
Quoth Timon: DID I MISSSS SOMEEEETHINNNNG??!??!?!
i have been buying the daily news ever since the reporter told me that they would run a follow up article on railfans that would feature a 5 page spread on my contributions to railfannery and comedy--- i had hoped that i would be able to send the article to my father as an explanation of what i have been doing with my life for the last 30 years--- i currently send him copies of my posts on subtalk, but they are returned unopened as he doesn't accept unsolicited material--- he only reads material that an agent submits
putting my personal problems aside--- i will give the daily news two more days to clear their pages about politicians and professional wrestlers (which are two related professions)--- if the article does not appear by this sunday, i will resume buying the mirror and the world telegram and sun
i do not take insults lightly......
Your father sounds like a reasonable man, under the circumstances.
I will join your boycott of the Daily News.
In Unity there is Strength! (Or is it the other way around???)
Doug aka BMTman
If you are intending to switch newspapers, how about considering The Brooklyn Eagle or The Long Island Press? For the city I would suggest The Herald Tribune!
Pro Wrestling Rules, brah!!!!!!
It is little known, yet a historical fact, that the Interborough Rapid Transit Co. was in discussions with the LIRR to take over their Manhattan Beach Line, once it became obvious to the latter that the line was unlikely to survive as a standard railroad operation.
Service would have run west from Nostrand/Bay Ridge Line to the existing junction at E16th near Avenue I, thence on the then-new embankment to Sheepshead Bay and Manhattan Beach.
This would have given the IRT head-to-head competition with the BMT's bread-and-butter Brighton Line.
I have puzzled for decades over the IRT's failure to take advantage of this incredible opportunity. Now, finally, I have discovered a secret document in Heypaul's basement revealing the startling truth:
Top Ten Reasons the IRT Doesn't Go to Manhattan Beach
#10: Total lack of imagination.
#9: In IRT's dictionary "Monopoly" appears where "Competition" was supposed to be.
#8: Too circuitous route could not compete with Brighton Express.
#7: No one lived in Brooklyn south of Avenue H, nor would they.
#6: Encyclopedia in IRT headquarters was missing volumes from I through Z, so IRT thought Avenue H was at the shore.
#5: Fear that BMT Triplexes would beat up Lo-Vs.
#4: IRT already had two main lines that went in Manhattan--Why create a third just to serve its Beach?
#3: No experience at running on embankments.
#2: Soot from Manhattan Beach steam locomotives would stain nice clean tiles in IRT subway stations.
And the number one reason IRT trains do not run to Manhattan Beach:
#1: What would they do with all those freshly painted destination signs that said "Nostrand Avenue."
paul--- i didn't give you access to the real reason--- i keep this hidden in the food locker---
the kerosene marker lights would get blown out by the ocean breezes---
were the marker lights really fueled by kerosene or oil--- what actually kept them from blowing out?--- how often did they need to be refilled?--- was there really a 55 gallon drum of kerosene under each car feeding the lamps?--- did low v's ever get taken out of service because of a worn out wick?
were the marker lights really fueled by kerosene or oil--- what actually kept them from blowing out?--- how often did they need to be refilled?--- was there really a 55 gallon drum of kerosene under each car feeding the lamps?--- did low v's ever get taken out of service because of a worn out wick?
Actually, most of those are real questions.
The running lights (the lower ones) actually were oil lit. I don't know what the fuel was, but kerosene is probable. I don't believe the markers (top lights) were ever oil lit on the electric cars, but those used on locomotives probably were.
If you've ever used kerosene lamps for lighting or signalling, they are well baffled and don't go out easily. BTW, a Coleman-type kerosense lamp with a mantle produces a bright steady light--I found this out during Hurricane Gloria in 1985.
The IRT used kerosense lamps for running lights to the end, even on the cars they purchased for the 1939 World's Fair--see this photo from rapidtransit.net. I believe that they stuck with kerosene as a cheap dependable way of making sure there would be markers burning in the event of a power outage.
As to #5, the Triplexes minded their own business. As big and massive as they were, they didn't pick fights with other cars. The BMT standards, well, that's a different story. We all know what they did over the years to other cars.
Paul, verrrry funny post.
Are you trying to upstage our resident comedian, heypaul?
Doug aka BMTman
Come to think of it, have Heypaul and I ever been seen in the same place at the same time? And how come we're both married to women named Lois Lane?
heyPaul--- you're confused--- i was married to lois lane's sister margot lane--- as you should know margot lane was the companion of lamont cranston--- and as you should know i have never been seen in public because i am
THE SHADOW
#7: No one lived in Brooklyn south of Avenue H, nor would they.
Don't laugh - this could be true!
Ever notice that the rear of City Hall in Manhattan doesn't seem to match the other sides of the building? There's a reason for it - it was built with cheaper material that the rest of the building because it was thought that no one would live north of it, and therefore no one would SEE it!
Heard on the History Channel a while back.
--Mark
Perhaps if the Manhattan Beach and Oriental Hotels were still around, they might have gone for it!
Perhaps if the Manhattan Beach and Oriental Hotels were still around, they might have gone for it!
If those hotels could have been maintained, the LIRR would never have given the line up!
I really would have liked to have known the specifics of why the IRT passed up an opportunity like that. One issue might have been that the IRT was oriented toward volume, volume, volume, and they didn't think the line could generate that.
I found a MetroCard on the floor a while back (I don't remember where, though). I finally got around to swiping it through a card reader. After many attemps, and many "SEE AGENT" responses from the reader, I saw this message on the display:
NC SOCIAL SERVICE
NOT VALID HERE
BALANCE $1.50
EXPIRES ON 05/31/00
What does the first line mean, and why would it not be valid?
That's a Long Island Bus special MC ... I thought they were green or some other special color. They replace the special tokens that used to be handed out to folks. With the comming cut backs this may become quite a valueable find :-(
Mr t
I forgot to mention that it looks like an ordinary MetroCard.
[I forgot to mention that it looks like an ordinary MetroCard.]
I assumed that from your post.
For a while some of us saw public school cards looking like the regular gold ones too ... guess they ran out of "green" stock.
BTW, Has anyone seen a normal LI Social Service MC ? Is there one ?
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, Medicare/Medicaid pays for certain travel options.
-Hank
I spotted a northbound Q train passing Avenue J at about 7:45. It was ten R32 cars with the operating motor 3558.
Who says you can't go home again?-)
Keeping with the "Ten reasons why the IRT doesn't go to Manhattan Beach" posting, I've decided to add a Top Ten - well, Bottom Ten - list of my own.
THE TEN THINGS I HATE ABOUT NEW YORK
1. The bumbling, nutty-professor inability to get even the simplest infrastructure improvements accomplished (think of those two-year escalator repair jobs, not to mention the Second Avenue line).
2. Confiscatory taxes.
3. Stratospheric Medicaid spending.
4. Government's paternalistic, micromanaged instrusions into our lives.
5. The ridiculous, New-York-is-different mentality, which holds that normal rules of economics and society - and maybe the laws of physics - don't apply within the city limits.
6. The idea that people living outside of Manhattan are three-toothed hillbillies who marry their 12-year-old cousins.
7. Incessant racial tension.
8. The Upper West Side.
9. The _Times_ and its 100% information monopoly.
10. The incessant whining that other parts of the country get all the breaks while New York is the unloved stepchild.
11. Overpaid militant unions (okay, so I'm up to 11).
12. NIMBYs (what's one more, at this point?)
To be fair, there is a counter argument to many of these.
1. The bumbling, nutty-professor inability to get even the simplest infrastructure improvements accomplished (think of those
two-year escalator repair jobs, not to mention the Second Avenue line).
Blame Robert Caro. He'll be the lead speaker at Hevesi's infrastructure forum at the end of this month.
2. Confiscatory taxes.
There is a federal policy of using spending formulas to make life more difficult in "affluent" states. That accounts for a lot of it.
3. Stratospheric Medicaid spending.
No argument here.
4. Government's paternalistic, micromanaged instrusions into our lives.
If you mean NYC, not NY State, we have more rules, but less enforcement. Where else in the U.S. can you pay your workers less than the minimum wage (and sometimes welch on even that), and not pay workman's comp, unemployment and FICA taxes, and pretty much get away with it? It is out in the burbs that you get micro-management, and a co-op board mentality.
5. The ridiculous, New-York-is-different mentality, which holds that normal rules of economics and society - and maybe the
laws of physics - don't apply within the city limits.
No argument there. People don't like to compare NY with other places.
6. The idea that people living outside of Manhattan are three-toothed hillbillies who marry their 12-year-old cousins.
Applies to the outer-boroughs also.
7. Incessant racial tension.
Worse elsewhere -- but less publicized.
8. The Upper West Side.
Now the Yupper West Side. The 1960s was a long time ago.
9. The _Times_ and its 100% information monopoly.
Elsewhere, there is only one newspaper in town. Then again, you might not consider the News and Post newspapers.
10. The incessant whining that other parts of the country get all the breaks while New York is the unloved stepchild.
To a large extent there is a point here, and it is a new view. The old view -- the NYC elite, which didn't have to worry about taxes and public schools, concerned itself with symbolic social and cocktail party issues, while the rest of the country ripped us off. The new view -- we deserve the same consideration as everyone else.
11. Overpaid militant unions (okay, so I'm up to 11).
Actually, the average public employee in NYC earns less than in the private sector. The average public employee in the rest of the state earns far more than in the private sector. We have UNDERPAID militant unions. Our unions are militant about having their job performance equal their low wage. Where does the money go? See point #3.
12. NIMBYs (what's one more, at this point?)
Stupid NIMBYs more like it -- everyone has NIMBYS. Suburban NIMBYs are selfish. They fight against affordable housing, because they want to keep the poor -- and their burdens -- our of their communities. But suburban NIMBYs welcome in businesses, because they pay taxes, allowing more public services at a lower household tax rate. Also, suburban NIMBYs don't fight against new roads, schools, parks, etc -- or at least those who do have less power.
Meanwhile, NYC lets non-profit health and social service providers roll over everything -- even as NIMBYs fight to keep out business and public works.
1. The bumbling, nutty-professor inability to get even the simplest infrastructure improvements accomplished (think of those
two-year escalator repair jobs, not to mention the Second Avenue line).
Blame Robert Caro. He'll be the lead speaker at Hevesi's infrastructure forum at the end of this month.
I'll bite. Why should I blame a writer for this? Or is there someone else named Robert Caro that I don't know?
Caro convinced everyone that the expedited procedures used by Robert Moses screwed the little guy and local concerns. And the unreasonable stupidity went 180 degrees the other way. I'm hoping that by being the lead speaker at a pro-infrastructure meeting ("Rebuild New York", Tuesday March 28th at CUNY Graduate Center 8 am to 4 p.m.) that he will fess up and say things have gone too far.
BTW -- you see why I'd like to see Hevesi elected Mayor?
[Caro convinced everyone that the expedited procedures used by Robert Moses screwed the little guy and local concerns. And the unreasonable stupidity went 180 degrees the other way. I'm hoping that by being the lead speaker at a pro-infrastructure meeting ("Rebuild New York", Tuesday March 28th at CUNY Graduate Center 8 am to 4 p.m.) that he will fess up and say things have gone too far.]
I wouldn't count on any repentance from Caro. It is sad but true that a certain, influential strata of New Yorkers - the words "Upper West Side" are on the tip of my tongue, metaphorically speaking - are perfectly happy with the City's near-complete lack of infrastructure improvements. If you take taxis or limousines everywhere, you aren't concerned that subway expansion has effectively stopped - in fact, you're probably glad, as there's less construction to delay you. If you send your children to one of those disgustingly expensive private schools, you aren't concerned that many public schools still have coal-fired furnaces. The Manhattan Bridge debacle? To these people, Brooklyn might as well be in northeastern Turkmenistan (except for the rare, risky trip to those _adventurous_ friends who bought that brownstone in the wilderness known as Brooklyn Heights), so it's hardly anything to lose sleep over. NYC's lack of decent stores? They consider supermarkets utterly _ghastly_ places, so, so *suburban* (shudder), and completely unnecessary what with that nearby gourmet shop.
In short, Caro has no need to repent because the Upper West Siders who adore his every word are perfectly happy with NYC's status quo.
Hey now Pete, I was born on the upper west side, don't go dissin my ol' neighborhoo!!!!
Sounds like a bunch of snobby Democrats to me Pete, and that is why I hold them in such contempt. They bleed liberal red but consider the vast majority of us as the great unwashed. To hell with them.
My responses to some of your counter-arguments:
[[7. Incessant racial tension.]
[Worse elsewhere -- but less publicized.]
I can't possibly imagine where things could be worse. Only in NYC could someone like Al Sharpton become the _de facto_ leader of the city.
An interesting factoid: in California, about 15% of the babies being born these days are of interracial backgrounds (mainly white/Asian and white/Hispanic). That's about as sure a sign of racial harmony as you can get. I don't know what NYC's comparable percentage is, but my best guess is that it's far, far lower.
[[8. The Upper West Side.]
[Now the Yupper West Side. The 1960s was a long time ago.]
You still won't be seeing many U.W.S. votes for Bush or McCain come November. I don't know what things were like in the 1960's, but the U.W.S. remains a hotbed of extreme, knee-jerk liberalism.
[[9. The _Times_ and its 100% information monopoly. ]
[Elsewhere, there is only one newspaper in town. Then again, you might not consider the News and Post newspapers.]
Other metropolitan areas might have only one newspaper, but they have a wide variety of other information sources: radio, local television news, CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, the Internet, and so on. But in NYC, the _Times_ has a stranglehold on the hearts and minds of the people that matter. You'd have to go back to the days of Pravda in the old Soviet Union to find a newspaper with anything close to that much influence.
Neither the _Daily News_ nor the _Post_ is a serious newspaper (although the _Daily News_ does make an attempt). They're basically sports and entertainment journals, with a little news thrown in for godo measure.
My responses to your responses to some of mu counter-arguments:
[[7. Incessant racial tension.]
[Worse elsewhere -- but less publicized.]
(I can't possibly imagine where things could be worse. Only in NYC could someone like Al Sharpton become the
_de facto_ leader of the city).
Sharpton makes a lot of noise. I lived in Tulsa for a few years, where back in the 1920s the whites rioted, burned down the black part of town, and killed a few hundred blacks, before the national guard arrived. Never heard of it until recently. And I worked as an intern at the local newspaper.
[[8. The Upper West Side.]
[Now the Yupper West Side. The 1960s was a long time ago.]
(You still won't be seeing many U.W.S. votes for Bush or McCain come November. I don't know what things were like in the 1960's, but the U.W.S. remains a hotbed of extreme, knee-jerk liberalism).
Its nuevo liberalism -- I should be able to do as I please, but if someone else has a problem, I don't want to have to pay for it. Believe me -- I've had to attend public meetings and deal with these people. I'd rather deal with Che Guevarra.
[[9. The _Times_ and its 100% information monopoly. ]
[Elsewhere, there is only one newspaper in town. Then again, you might not consider the News and Post
newspapers.] In NYC, the_Times_ has a stranglehold on the hearts and minds of the people that matter.
At work when I'm told who to worry about, as far as anything we do getting in the paper and getting us in trouble with the Mayor, I'm told to worry more about the Daily News. The Times might influence national polticians. The News worries local politicians. At the state level, they are so insulated from democracy they don't care about anyone.
racial harmony in California--surely you jest. This is the state that passed an anti immigrant state prop. then eliminated affirmative action from government functions by referendum. not to mention ongoing stuff like the constant bickering about who gets into the 'academic' public high schools and the prison guard organized riots in state prisons--andf we have the highest per capita prison population.
Sorry, elimination of Affirmative Action is a wonderful thing. Minorities deserve to be treated like anyone else. Ending discrimination by reversing it is not the answer.
Thank you!
-Hank
I also hate New York (I have no choice, it's a state law).
1) It stole our statue
2) It dumped medical waste on our beaches.
3) It makes driving to New Englande difficult.
4) It attracts people's attention away from New Jersey.
5) It stole Staten Island
6) It turned the top 1/2 of the state into a wealthy suburb that now oppreses the bottom 1/2 of the state.
7) They hate us and prepetuate anti-New Jersey jokes in the news media.
8) It was home to the New York Central RR.
9) It puts a facist distatorship with in a few thousand feet of our freedon loving oil refineries. (All dictators need oil. NYC might invade NJ to guarentee its supply.)
10) It contaminates the pristine Medowlands with dead bodies, old railroad stations and sports complexes.
I was wondering when NJ was going to put the move on that statue.
>>>5) It stole Staten Island <<<
Actually, NY State won Staten Island in a 18th Century boat race.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Actually, Staten Island has been trying to secede from NYC since 1898, AND the rest of NYC has wanted to evict Staten Island for almost as long.
Incorrect. In the nonbinding referendum in 1896, Staten Island voted more overwhelmingly than any other future borough to join New York City. Brooklyn had the smallest margin.
"1) It stole our statue"
Sorry, you acephalites gave up Bedloe's Island before anyone even dreamed of the Statue of Liberty.
"2) It dumped medical waste on our beaches."
Sorry, you dumped that yourself.
"3) It makes driving to New Englande difficult."
It's so people from the reject state (aka New Jersey), will be stuck and won't be able to pollute the rest of the country with their sorry asses.
"4) It attracts people's attention away from New Jersey."
Good, we don't need a lot of people retching and vomiting.
"5) It stole Staten Island"
Of course, only a dumb loser (official Webster's definition for New Jerseyan) could have regrets about losing that dump.
"6) It turned the top 1/2 of the state into a wealthy suburb that now oppreses the bottom 1/2 of the state."
Because the top half of the state tries to be like New York so they stop being losers. Now of course they're better than you.
"7) They hate us and prepetuate anti-New Jersey jokes in the news media."
All that New York to perpetuate New Jersey jokes is to invite somebody on a grand tour of the state. The jokes make themselves up.
"8) It was home to the New York Central RR."
You're just jealous that we still have a beautiful terminal and you just have a stinking basement.
"9) It puts a facist distatorship with in a few thousand feet of our freedon loving oil refineries. (All dictators need oil. NYC might invade NJ to guarentee its supply.)"
This will definitely happen! As soon as NY elects a mayor right out of Bellevue. Or New Jersey, it's the same thing either way.
"10) It contaminates the pristine Medowlands with dead bodies, old railroad stations and sports complexes."
Sorry, you destroyed your own ugly swamp and made it uglier by luring our teams into the giant garbage can, I mean New Jersey. And what can I say? You can't blame these people for sending their garbage over to someplace that's always been a jealous, useless, and gold digging DUMP.
The best way to get rid of our nuclear weapons is to use them in the drive through state and get nice, free, wide highways paved there, which is the only reason anybody would want to go to that hell. Oh wait, that's what New Jersey already is!
BTW, When you address your mail, is your exit number part of the zip code, or do you have to write it where every other part of the world has a city?
I love NYC, but one thing I don't like about it is:
Rudolph.
Well, OK, I lived in NYC for 30+ years......
Actually, I didn't HATE any of it, though I certainly thought many things could have been improved. I'm not a social or political scientist, so I'm not going to comment on politics or social services. I'll stick to transit and mobility issues.
BUT, one thing I think NYC could really use is a real park-n'-ride program. Some intercept system, like the MBTA has at Quincy Adams or like PATCO has at Woodcrest, with direct highway ramps into parking at a rail station, is really lacking in NYC.
JFK Lot 8 is about the closest example. And Vince Lombardi in NJ is good also. But it's tough to top a facility like PATCO Woodcrest or MBTA Quincy Adams for accessibility and convenience. Too many park-n'-ride lots in NYC are jammed into neighborhoods where space could be had, poorly marked by signage, or accessible only via local streets.
Let's say they extended the New Lots line through the yard to the Belt Pkwy and a new parking facility at Spring Creek. Or that they improved the atmosphere of the Lot 8 facility (canpoies and maybe a moving sidewalk or small people-mover). Or decked Jamaica Yard as a parking lot (OK, I know its a wetland....just musing here).
Direct highway access at a terminal or near-terminal with a quality service into Manhattan would be a hit, I feel. Let's face it, you'll never get some folks out of cars, no matter how good rail or bus service is. Why not grab them at the periphery and make it worth their while to take transit? It works in plenty of other places..... NYC never really bridged the mobility gap between the commuter rail (long headways and one downtown station) and traditional subway/el (slow and only in the densest areas) the way WMATA, PATCO, BART, or the MBTA Red Line did.
[BUT, one thing I think NYC could really use is a real park-n'-ride program. Some intercept system, like the MBTA has at Quincy Adams or like PATCO has at Woodcrest, with direct highway ramps into parking at a rail station, is really lacking in NYC ....
Direct highway access at a terminal or near-terminal with a quality service into Manhattan would be a hit, I feel. Let's face it, you'll never get some folks out of cars, no matter how good rail or bus service is. Why not grab them at the periphery and make it worth their while to take transit? It works in plenty of other places..... NYC never really bridged the mobility gap between the commuter rail (long headways and one downtown station) and traditional subway/el (slow and only in the densest areas) the way WMATA, PATCO, BART, or the MBTA Red Line did.]
NYC's sheer geographical size makes expanded park 'n' ride a tough sell. Let's say the city extended the 3 line (as you suggested in a snipped portion) and built a major park 'n' ride lot at Spring Creek. People using the lot would still face a long haul into Manhattan, not to mention the fact that the Brooklyn IRT is jammed even now. An upgraded facility using the A train near Kennedy Airport would involve an even longer subway trek. I just don't see many people from Nassau County (or Westchester, if you have park 'n' ride lots in the Bronx) driving into Queens in rush hour traffic and then spending 45 minutes on the subway. They'd either take the LIRR (or Metro North) from the suburbs, or drive all the way.
I agree with Peter. No one wants to drive for 45 minutes and then face an hour subway ride, which many of us 718ers have. There is, however, another alternative -- Park-n-ride just over the river from Manhattan. You'd avoid the jam at the bridge or tunnel, on the Manhattan street, and the cost of parking in Manhattan.
Prime sites would be:
1) the J/Z off the BQE for Long Island to Downtown commuters.
2) Yankee Stadium for Westchester commuters -- if a 2nd Avenue subway ever reduced crowding on the Lex.
3) Long Island City, to get some people in that 63rd St tunnel.
Finally, if Manny B were ever fixed, you could have special park N ride N trains leaving from parking garages along the Sea Beach off the BQE. Skip 59th and 36th, and use the by pass tracks at DeKalb, and Staten Islanders are in Midtown before they know it.
According to the hagstrom map, there is a park and ride at Queensboro Plaza.
Park and Ride would be a great alternative to riding busses. They should build gigantic garages near Sheepshead Bay on the D/Q so I can avoid that ridiculous B100.
Create a new service for that - EXTEND THE #4.- use the center track inbound in the AM, outbound in the PM (like the Flushing), have it stop at only Flatlands, Stanley and New Lots. Then run it express all the way to Utica and so on to Manhattan.
Wayne
Well, OK, I lived in NYC for 30+ years......
Actually, I didn't HATE any of it, though I certainly thought many things could have been improved. I'm not a social or political scientist, so I'm not going to comment on politics or social services. I'll stick to transit and mobility issues.
BUT, one thing I think NYC could really use is a real park-n'-ride program. Some intercept system, like the MBTA has at Quincy Adams or like PATCO has at Woodcrest, with direct highway ramps into parking at a rail station, is really lacking in NYC.
JFK Lot 8 is about the closest example. And Vince Lombardi in NJ is good also. But it's tough to top a facility like PATCO Woodcrest or MBTA Quincy Adams for accessibility and convenience. Too many park-n'-ride lots in NYC are jammed into neighborhoods where space could be had, poorly marked by signage, or accessible only via local streets.
Let's say they extended the New Lots line through the yard to the Belt Pkwy and a new parking facility at Spring Creek. Or that they improved the atmosphere of the Lot 8 facility (canpoies and maybe a moving sidewalk or small people-mover). Or decked Jamaica Yard as a parking lot (OK, I know its a wetland....just musing here).
Direct highway access at a terminal or near-terminal with a quality service into Manhattan would be a hit, I feel. Let's face it, you'll never get some folks out of cars, no matter how good rail or bus service is. Why not grab them at the periphery and make it worth their while to take transit? It works in plenty of other places..... NYC never really bridged the mobility gap between the commuter rail (long headways and one downtown station) and traditional subway/el (slow and only in the densest areas) the way WMATA, PATCO, BART, or the MBTA Red Line did.
OK Wayne, you like Hillary. What does that make you? A hint. A see a lot of carpet coming out of your mouth. Maybe when hilarious Hillary is defeated (if New Yorkers are smart) you can accompany her to Arkansas, Illinois, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Sri Lanka, or anywhere else her sorry ass wishes to go. GO RUDY!!!!!!
Rudy will get very few votes in NYC.
If he wins, thank god, we will have someone else for mayor.
Don't care who it is, just someone else.
If he doesn't win, we will have him for a year longer. May he win.
Of course, Rudy will lose only Kings, Queens, New York and Bronx counties, continuing those counties' tradition as being the laughingstock of the state.
I hope you do get another mayor, maybe then you can appreciate the fact that Rudy was one of the first mayors in a long time who didn't have a Encephalectomy before being elected. Mark Green never got one, there's nothing to operate on. Is your name Mark Green?
You don't like him as mayor so you're going to subject the rest of the country to this evil. No matter what the outcome, he's still going to be in your government. What logic are you using? "If I can't be happy, then no one should." Speaking for the rest of the country I would like to say that we don't want your mayor in our US Senate. You keep him, he's yours! You're the ones who voted him into office, live with it! :scoff: New Yorkers, can't live with 'em, can't sink 'em into the Atlantic...yet.
He'd cause less probems as a senator than as a mayor since he would be just one vote out of 100. However since I can't stand him I wouldn't vote for him for dog-catcher. H. Clinton for Senator!
>>>2. Confiscatory taxes. <<<
None of the Four Stooges are offering any substantial relief, either. Gore, McCain and Bradley offer minimal relief, while Bush's cuts are mostly for the wealthy.
>>>>6. The idea that people living outside of Manhattan are three-toothed hillbillies who marry their
12-year-old cousins. <<<<
Open any NYC guidebook, (they've been proliferating lately) and you'll see 300+ pages on Manhattan, a dozen on Brooklyn Heights, and nada on any other borough. If I ever do a Forgotten book, Manhattan is just another borough, treated the same as the other four. Just as it is on the website.
>>>7. Incessant racial tension. <<<
The Combover has been spectacular on crime eradication. But this has led to a superaggressive NYPD, and you have the Louima fiasco, by a psychotic, enraged patrolman, and the Diallo disaster.
Sharpie, DA Johnson, Cal Butts, et al would like us to return to the look-the-other-way brand of policing that was the principle under Do Nothing Dinkins. There has to be a middle ground that can keep the crime down yet still make the minority community feel that they are not under siege.
>>>12. NIMBYs (what's one more, at this point?) <<<
We can start a string on all the transit lines and subways we'd have if there WERE no Nimbys.
Reactivated Rockaway, Bay Ridge and Montauk branches...a one seat ride from midtown to LaGuardia...subway service to Northeast and Southeast Queens...the wish list goes on.
[We can start a string on all the transit lines and subways we'd have if there WERE no Nimbys.
Reactivated Rockaway, Bay Ridge and Montauk branches...a one seat ride from midtown to LaGuardia...subway service to Northeast and Southeast Queens...the wish list goes on.]
About the only thing we *can't* blame them for is the Second Avenue debacle. That line would be running today if it weren't for the non-NIMBY-related Beame Shuffle of the 1970's. On the other hand, if there were a serious proposal to build the line today (when pigs fly), you can rest assured that the NIMBY's would be out in droves.
"(when pigs fly)"
The United Swines owns several planes for own use.
[The Combover has been spectacular on crime eradication. But this has led to a superaggressive NYPD, and you have the Louima fiasco, by a psychotic, enraged patrolman, and the Diallo disaster.
Sharpie, DA Johnson, Cal Butts, et al would like us to return to the look-the-other-way brand of policing that was the principle under Do Nothing Dinkins. There has to be a middle ground that can keep the crime down yet still make the minority community feel that they are not under siege.]
Superaggressive NYPD? Under siege? I can't imagine how. Statistics show that police shootings are way down today - quite a bit lower than in the Dinky era. While the volume of civilian complaints has increased, most of them are quickly dismissed as unfounded.
[While the volume of civilian complaints has increased, most of them are quickly dismissed as unfounded.]
That doesn't necessarily mean that the complaints weren't valid, just that the review procedure decided they were unfounded.
Doug aka BMTman
At the risk of being off topic I will respond.
I was going to say that exact same thing. You took the words out of my mouth.
There is no seige. There are no SS police and fascist dictators. No one is being hauled off to being executed like 1940's Germany. These protestors who make all of these claims and comparisons should fall on their knees and thank God that they may never have to know what fascism and communism and nazi genocide really is.
The news events that have been bombarding the tv are all one big smoke screen. I don't even believe it's Sharpton and the crew who are really the source of promoting this sentiment. You need to look elsewhere. Obviously, all of these marches and lawsuits and bus trips to Washington cost money. Last I heard the Sharpton crew are not pulling in the type of income to rival that of Bill Gates and Silicon valley. I would still like to know, however, how he is able to live in Teaneck, NJ (away from his followers) with an apartment in Brooklyn and can wear expensive suits.
Money doesn't grow on trees. No. There is someone (singular or plural) who is obviously financing all of these spectacles and the three ring circus. That's the real fuel that is fanning the flames. Like fire if you cut off the oxygen (in this case money) the fire will eventually go out because nothing is feeding it.
Al Sharpton. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ah ha! What a sorry joke. A racist to the core. He promotes division among the races and the press gives him a free ride. I wish African-Americans would reject this bum once and for all. Caucasians totally trashed the pathetic David Duke but can't do that to Sharpmouth. Our black bretheran will have to do it. And I hope soon. And if he's such a big New Yorker, why is that cretan living in New Jersey? Sharpton, Hillary, Mario, Green. Boy, you New Yorkers have a lot of trash to empty.
Sharpton a racist??
RUDY and the cops.
New Yorker have the right to revolt against the KKK Oh, I mean NYPD.
While the volume of civilian complaints has increased, most of them are quickly dismissed as unfounded.
The amount of damages paid by the City in civil actions for NYPD negligence is also way up. This may be a better index than the Civilian Complaint Bureau, which is deliberately underfunded.
Crains New York, at a forum of minority business people after the whole racial profiling thing broke, asked how many had been pulled over and then released without explanation, or stopped and frisked without, again, any explanation.
Almost all of them had.
I've never been stopped and frisked, despite traveling through all kinds of NYC neighborhoods on assingment, the last couple of years in a black leather jacket and a black cap (it admitedly says Census 2000). Walked down people's side yards, looked at their side and back doors for doorbells, etc. etc. A few friendly chats with the neighbors. Not a word from the Cops.
[Crains New York, at a forum of minority business people after the whole racial profiling thing broke, asked how many had been pulled over and then released without explanation, or stopped and frisked without, again, any explanation.
Almost all of them had.]
I know I'm venturing into dangerous territory here, but I've got to say that racial profiling, while certainly not a pleasant thing, is at least somewhat understandable. For whatever reason or reasons, it's the unavoidable truth that minorities are responsible for a disproportionate share of crime in NYC (and elsewhere). It is far more likely that a minority businessman, like the ones polled by Crains, will resemble a wanted criminal than a white businessman will resemble a wanted criminal. Remember that the whole Diallo affair happened because the SCU was looking for a black serial rapist. As a result, a minority businessman is more likely to be questioned by the police. You will probably see the same thing with other demographic groups - males are more likely to be stopped than are females, teenagers are more likely to be stopped than middle-aged persons.
Obviously, this is small consolation to minority group members who are stopped by the police despite being totally law-abiding. I'd probably be highly offended if I were in their shoes. And nothing justifies harrassment of minorities just because the police don't like them, in other words when there's not a case of a person resembling a specific wanted criminal.
You must be white.
White commit almost all the hate crimes in the US
NYPD white cops shoots mostly minorities.
You being a white man, are immune to racial profiling. After all
what white cop would suspect one of their own of being a suspect?
Minorities make up the majority of the population and if you don't like that you should move back to your white suburbs.
[You must be white.]
Yes, I am. And I'm sick and tired of being treated as the enemy, responsible for all the woes facing minorities today.
[White commit almost all the hate crimes in the US]
Like the people who murdered Yankel Rosenbaum? Like that man in Pittsburgh this week who deliberately targeted whites, killing three of them?
[NYPD white cops shoots mostly minorities.]
Yes, most people shot by police are minorities. But as the vast majority of criminals in NYC are minorities, it's about what you'd expect. And by the way, it's been shown that minority police are just as likely to shoot as are white police (keeping in mind that police shootings are very rare and getting rarer).
[You being a white man, are immune to racial profiling. After all
what white cop would suspect one of their own of being a suspect?]
Actually, if the police are looking for a white suspect, which does happen (especially outside the larger cities), white people indeed might find themselves "profiled."
[Minorities make up the majority of the population and if you don't like that you should move back to your white suburbs.]
Minorities may be a majority of the population in NYC, but they aren't in the country as a whole. Some projections say the United States may be "majority-minority" by 2050. That could be true, but I suspect that increased racial mixing (as I noted earlier, 15% of the children being born in California are interracial) will render the whole concept of race pretty fuzzy by then. In any event, it's not too likely that I'll be around to see it.
Oh, one more thing, I do live in a suburb, one that's predominantly but by no means entirely white. I suppose you're going to say that makes me evil, right?
>>>>Superaggressive NYPD? Under siege? I can't imagine how. Statistics show that police shootings are way
down today - quite a bit lower than in the Dinky era. While the volume of civilian complaints has
increased, most of them are quickly dismissed as unfounded. <<<
Perception, they say, is reality. My ex company, Publishers Clearing House, is thought by many to be plotting to rid pensioners of their checks by strongly implying that orderers have a better shot at the big money. That was never a company policy, but they did make it easier for orderers to enter. That has come back to bite them.
Concurrently, the NYPD is now thought of in many neighborhoods in the big city as an occupying army. While actual shootings of civilians by the NYPD has declined, the overall atmosphere has been poisoned by aggressive policing. The NYPD is perceived to be the bad guys; so to many they have become the bad guys.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Concurrently, the NYPD is now thought of in many neighborhoods in the big city as an occupying army. While actual shootings of civilians by the NYPD has declined, the overall atmosphere has been poisoned by aggressive policing. The NYPD is perceived to be the bad guys; so to many they have become the bad guys.]
Yet it's probably the neighborhoods most likely to consider the NYPD an occupying army that have benefitted the most from the reduction in crime rates. I doubt if many people on the Upper East Side are worried about aggressive policing. But even in the depths of the crime wave in the Dinky years, the Upper East Side was pretty safe. On the other hand, the people in Brownville probably hate the NYPD, by and large. But this so-called aggressive policing surely has made Brownsville a lot safer than it had been ten years ago.
Funny how these sort of issues tend to take over threads. No wonder education and transportation lose out in the public debate. Poor Hevesi. He'll go on holding rebuild New York seminars, designing new garbage trucks, taking about education, economic development, and the need to get down the debt, and he'll be ignored.
All we'll hear about is race and police, abortion, the death penalty, etc. We'll be stuck with Mark Green or Peter Vallone.
It would help if there were more Black and Hispanic police officers, but unfortunately the share of Blacks and Hispanics who get through school and come up with the qualifications to be police officers is too low. And they have lots of options, and a cultural bias against policing. The city could use more black business owners and teachers too, but the qualified applicants are not out there. It's the product of long run educational failure and family decline.
The police force also has to compete with the Transit Authority for qualified minority applicants. I see a hell of a lot more Black T/Os than Cops. Which job would you choose?
Please explain how Bush's tax cuts are "for the wealthy".
The CCRB is underfunded so that cops can remain trigger happy legal
criminals. Most cops in the city come from upper middle class white suburbs where almost all the residents are white.
(Most cops in the city come from upper middle class white suburbs)
Actually, most come from working class white suburbs, both inside and outside the city. The upper middle class can make a living in less dangerous and stressful ways.
[(Most cops in the city come from upper middle class white suburbs)
Actually, most come from working class white suburbs, both inside and outside the city. The upper middle class can make a living in less dangerous and stressful ways.]
And they're hardly all white anymore. Those days are long past. The NYPD has done a very good job of integration, though not of course as good as Transit has.
Do you live in NYC?
The cops are almost, that I see are white.
Diallo: White
Luima: White
How do you explain that?
[Do you live in NYC?
The cops are almost, that I see are white.
Diallo: White
Luima: White
How do you explain that?]
Well, duh, I certainly see a lot of minority cops. I don't know the official statistics, but I'd guess that the NYPD is maybe one-quarter minority, possibly more.
If the cops were black, then everybody's favorite activist encephalectomy patient wouldn't cry racism and we'd hear nothing of it after the initial one or two articles on page 15.
>>>>Please explain how Bush's tax cuts are "for the wealthy". <<
I'm ill prepared to get into economic breakdowns in a transit forum, but I have heard that his cuts will disproportionately benefit the rich.
If one of these guys will propose a tax cut that will reduce my tax bill, and the tax bills of everyone making $50,000 per annum or less, to no more than 15-20% of my weekly paycheck, federal and state combined, then I'll start listening to them as far as taxes are concerned. Until then I'll keep reading my check, weeping every week and discounting every word they say.
Locally, I'm told that some local legislators are already starting to squawk because Rudy proposes to remove the income surtax imposed by Dave in the early 1990s.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[If one of these guys will propose a tax cut that will reduce my tax bill, and the tax bills of everyone making $50,000 per annum or less, to no more than 15-20% of my weekly paycheck, federal and state combined, then I'll start listening to them as far as taxes are concerned. Until then I'll keep reading my check, weeping every week and discounting every word they say.]
The *theory* is that tax cuts for rich people benefit everyone, as they'll invest their extra money in productive business enterprises. If you believe that, I've got a bridge over the East River to sell to you :-) In actual fact, rich people are more likely to spend extra money on luxuries and toys that have relatively little "spill over" economic benefit.
Agreed that this really isn't the place for such discussion, but since it was thrown out there I figure I'll put my 2 cents in.
First comment is be very wary when someone says that tax cuts "only benefit the rich" or "only benefit the top 25% of all wage earners". In order to get into the top 25% of all wage earners, you only need to have $48,000 in income. While you or others may not be at that income level now, you probably aspire to it and it is reasonably likely that you will achieve it at some point. The "rich" to a Democratic Politician is a very different thing than it is to most of us.
Also, it's almost impossible to devise a tax cut which "favors the poor". After all, the poorest of the poor likely pay almost no income tax already.
If you split the country into "rich" and "poor" -- where the top 50% of wage earners are called "rich" and the bottom 50% are "poor" -- and then you completely eliminated the income tax on the "poor" group, you would only eliminate 4.3% of the country's income tax revenue.
The moral of the story is -- ask a politician exactly who they're talking about when they say they're against tax cuts for the rich. Even more importantly, ask for specifics when they want to raise taxes on the "rich" -- they're probably talking about you.
Chuck
Well, since we have slithered into my professional territory you might as well respond.
Remember that big Republican Congress tax cut? Rudy wanted to show he was a good Republican come out in favor, and the assignment to find out how good it was slithered down through the maze of bureacracy into the basement --- me. Thank God for the interent. A conservative economic think tank hand done a detailed state by state analysis.
Now I had assumed that (since NY has an above average per capita income and tax cuts help the rich) that any tax cut would favor New York. But somehow, someway those Republicans can up with a massive tax cut plan in which the average New Yorkers would see a smaller decline in their paycheck than the residents of any state. I was stunned. It just shows that they have some smart staffers working for Congress who can really come up with something to screw NY. Rudy still endorsed the plan, but with fewer specifics and less enthusiasm.
As for the big Reagan tax cuts and trickle down, there is another pet peeve. Recall that in 1980 the tax code subsidized borrowing (consumer and student loan debt interest deductable) and taxes the hell out of savings, at up to a 70 percent marginal rate. This was on distribution of income grounds -- low to middle income people borrow, high income people save. Conservative economists blamed this for the low savings rate. Cut taxes on savings and investment, and people will save an invest.
So what happened? So many savings tax breaks were put in (IRA, 401K, college savings accounts) that despite being a cheapskate and saving a lot, I pay almost no tax on my earnings. The capital gains tax was cut. Aside from home loans, all consumer interest is no longer deductible.
The result: the national savings rate FELL TO ZERO. But no one ever goes back to those conservative economists and asks what happened. They are still talking about cutting taxes on investment returns to promote savings and investment, like a broken record.
Aside from home loans, all consumer interest is no longer deductible.
How well do I remember when that change came about! At the time, we were up to our eyeballs in consumer debt - of course, we had not only our mortgage but we had a car payment and lots of credit card bills. For us it was the impetus to clean up our financial act - since I couldn't deduct the interest any more, I didn't want to pay it. We sold what stocks and mutual funds we owned and paid off as much as we could, other than the mortgage, and within another 12 months or so we had paid off the car and the other bills as well. I don't know if that's good for the global economy, but the discipline that it fostered in us definately helped us get through the time when I was unemployed without totally destroying our future, and will enable our children to finish college without being saddled with debt for ten years afterwards.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And when I see the interest rates on credit cards, I practically want to cringe. Credit card debt is a huge burden even if it were deductible. If losing the deduction spurred more people to reduce their balances, it was a smart move.
The Republican Plan worked for me too. Rather than paying it off gradually, we cashed in our savings and paid off our student loans immediately. And, of course, we have both been putting money in 401Ks for years.
Still, nationwide it didn't work. People have gone deeper into credit card debt, and the savings rate has gone down. No one has explained this.
Perhaps it's because salaries haven't gone up at the rate that they did in the late '70s/early '80s - with the inflationary pressures gone, salaries are rising at a significantly lower rate than they were back then. When your salary is rising quickly, your available money to pay back the loan is probably rising more quickly than prices are. Now, people who are conditioned to that kind of spending are finding it harder to pay the debts off and equally hard to stop spending.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[People have gone deeper into credit card debt, and the savings rate
has gone down. No one has explained this.]
I get at least four or five unsolicited credit card offers a month, and I highly doubt I'm unusual in that respect. It's not hard to see how all this temptation leads to more c.c. spending. And that, of course, is exactly what the issuers want.
If losing the deduction spurred more people to reduce their balances, it was a smart move
Unfortunately the current rule is only unfair to people who don't own homes. Those who do can simply take out home equity lines of credit and still get a tax deduction. I know people who were maxed out on their credit cards and then took home equity loans to pay off the balances, thereby converting non-deductible interest to deductible interest.
[Unfortunately the current rule is only unfair to people who don't own homes. Those who do can simply take out home equity lines of credit and still get a tax deduction. I know people who were maxed out on their credit cards and then took home equity loans to pay off the balances, thereby converting non-deductible interest to deductible interest.]
Using home equity loans to pay off credit card debt is one of those things that sounds terrific in theory but usually is a mistake in practice. People who do it always say that they'll be disciplined and won't run up new balances on their paid-off credit cards. You can figure out exactly what usually happens.
The fact that Mark Green, Mario Cuomo and now hilarious Hillary live in New Yawk City is enough. With that pathetic trio do you need to have any more. But let's end the week on a happy note. Let's start the five things I love about New York.
No. 1----the Sea Beach train--Well, what the hell did you expect?
No. 2----Little Italy. Great place, great food, but getting smaller all the time.
No. 3----The Mets. This year they win it or Phillips and Valentine bid bon voyage to New York.
No. 4----Manhattan Skyline. Let's face it, Manhattan is an exciting place and there is a lot to see.
No. 5.---Mayor Giuliani. Now that will be the juices flowing but I saw him on TV on Larry King and he was great. He would make a great US Senator.
OK, I'll throw in a sixth. The Brighton Express. OK Bob? Are you satisfied?
I think Giuliani would make a better Governor, or even President.
That is unless the UNITED SWINES are completely overcome by the Boarsheviks (hey, we pigs are divided too) and then we we will do the same thing we do every night Pinky, try to TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
When was the 9th Avenue subway taken away and why?
Why did you post this in response to my message out Giuliani?
There never was a Ninth Avenue Subway.
2. Confiscatory taxes.
4. Government's paternalistic, micromanaged instrusions into our lives.
NMNMNMNMNMNMNMNM
NOW you got me going. First off I am a bundle of nerves cause of the two items above. The bastards in Albany, these do-gooding, moralistig imbeciles - they have decided to regulate behaviour of law-abiding citizens through confiscatory taxation. I am referring to the 55-cent-a-pack increase in the cigarette tax. What has this resulted in for me? I QUIT. Haven't had a smoke in about 45 hours. How do I feel? TERRIBLE. I have had exactly four hours sleep since then. I am shaking, my stomach hurts, I can't think straight, I can't sit still.
What am I doing about it? Well, I've got the Patch. It helps. But it's not a cure. All because of these well-meaning knuckleheads in Albany.
Why did they do this? To impose their wills on us, of course. Will they use the tax money for what they originally intended to - to fund some sort of medical insurance plan? OF COURSE NOT! It'll go right into the friggin' pork barrel. Do I trust them? NO I Don't. If they can get away with this...
If they don't want people to smoke THEY OUGHT TO PASS A STATE LAW OUTLAWING THE SALE AND POSSESSION OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS. I would have more respect for them if they did THIS rather than to ram a regressive, confiscatory tax down the throats of people who still choose to smoke. As for me, I'm taking this as fair warning - I think I'll quit now or at least try to...
Wayne
(Quit smoking)
Gee, I had thought that the economic incentive argument is a bunch of bull, and that the new tax was just an easy way to get money by (yet again) targeting and unpopular industry and habit. But if you actually end up quitting, I'll have to change my mind.
I think someone once did a study, and found that smokers hurt state and local government through higher Medicaid expenses, but help the federal government by dying before they collect social sercurity.
Larry - With Marlboros now costing $37.00+ tax a carton, I'd be hard pressed to keep smoking them. It's time - enough is enough.
Wayne
Go to Foxwoods. On Indian reservations there's no tax at all. Also, companies from North Carolina will ship them to you via the internet. The tax on cigarettes in NC is only 5 cents a pack.
Or you can just quit ...
Since when? North Carolina's cigarette tax is up around 30¢ a pack now, has been for several years. It's still lower than almost everyone else.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
03/04/2000
W A R N I N G ! !......O F F T O P I C .............................
I don't smoke, but I know someone who orders cartons on the internet to avoid taxes. With the new taxes, the internet will be humming with orders. New York is so tax happy they just love to shoot themselves in the foot.
See the high prices of gas ? Why is it higher in NY State and NY City? Because when price of gas dropped scheming bag eyed Uncle Mario of Albany made it interesting to add new taxes for all sorts of reasons. Now Nassau County will reevalute property taxes to bail out the county which sits well with Moody's. Hence, homeowners will pay more in proerty taxes!
Forget Pigs of Royal Island and his oinker revolt ! Get ready for a tax payer revolt, and this one will be televised !!
Bill Newkirk
While you Humans are divided, the UNITED SWINES will strike! First the BOARSHEVIKS need to get a majority in the House of Repigsentatives and Swinate. Then we won't have to contend with the Demhogcrats and Repiglicans.
Is it true that Marvin HAMmlitsch will compose your victory song?
Please, please, spare us the puns!!
03/04/2000
In a pigs eye !!
Bill Newkirk
[I think someone once did a study, and found that smokers hurt state and local government through higher Medicaid expenses, but help the federal government by dying before they collect social sercurity.]
I recall seeing the same thing.
Wayne, you remember your high school history - there was this little experiment called "Prohibition" back in the 20s, you may recall, and we all know how well that worked! But pricing something out of people's reach - literally, in the case of many people - has tended to work very well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
By the way, Wayne, I for one am glad you have decided to quit - it should extend your life expectancy, and I don't like attending my friends' funerals.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know. We've been trying for years to get our Chief Dispatcher to quit. At least now he's down to a pack every three days, which is an improvement.
BTC's no smoking (for operators)rule was downright draconian. Off the vehicle to smoke, even if 10 degrees and snowing. And it was enforced.
Personally, I deplore the habit. And, I buried a father (@62 years) and step-father (@72) due to cigarettes. Our late Superintendent Transportation smoked in his teens and twenties before quitting - he got chronic heart disease (from guess what) and died at 71.
I keep on hearing how prohibition didn't work. However I've also read conflicting reports. Alchohol related related crimes were way down and people as a whole were healthier. Not everyone went to speakeasys the same way not everyone is on drugs now. And lets face it, the gangster wars DID NOT end with the repeal of prohibition.
People may have been healthier, but I don't think there is a correlation between that and Prohibition. Major strides in public health were also made during the teens and twenties.
Statistically, per-capita alcohol consumption in urban areas actually INCREASED during Prohibition and remained constant in other parts of the country.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think the thing to remember is there are social pressures short of throwing people in jail to deter undesireable behavior. If you try to ban something that a significant share of the population will nonetheless do, you end up putting too much pressure on the police.
Virtually no one I know drinks hard alcohol. Virtually all our parents had a full liquor cabinet. People used to drink at lunch, and snooze through the afternoon. I'm told that have of the Transit Authority was drunk on the job in the "good old days." Not to mention half of the phone company -- they used to give the lineman whiskey rations on cold days. The change shows how education and social pressure can work, not in an absolute sense, but in a relative sense.
Education and social pressure can work, that's true, but taxation (detestable as we may find it) also helps a lot!
As for your comment about the telephone linemen, that's an old myth - no truth to it at all. Not that some didn't supply themselves, but Ma Bell didn't supply them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Ma Bell didn't supply them). I heard it from a former lineman.
[If they don't want people to smoke THEY OUGHT TO PASS A STATE LAW OUTLAWING THE SALE AND POSSESSION OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS. I would have more respect for them if they did THIS rather than to ram a regressive, confiscatory tax down the throats of people who still choose to smoke.]
You'll never see states outlawing cigarettes because then they'd lose a lucrative source of revenue. And cigarette taxes indeed are a big revenue source for most states.
52½ hours and counting; I feel like a spider on a griddle - when will this ever stop? Right now, I wish they WOULD ban them - maybe I'll just "pretend" they've done it until this agony goes away.
Wayne
>>>If they don't want people to smoke THEY OUGHT TO PASS A STATE LAW OUTLAWING THE SALE AND
POSSESSION OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS. I would have more respect for them if they did THIS rather
than to ram a regressive, confiscatory tax down the throats of people who still choose to smoke. As for
me, I'm taking this as fair warning - I think I'll quit now or at least try to...<<<
I've been thinking that for a long time. I'd rather ban tobacco outright than try to change people's behavior with restrictive legislation. The trouble is, they tried banning alcohol a few decades ago and people kept right on drinking.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Wayne, the important thing to remember is: NEVER, NEVER, EVER smoke that first cigarette, you the the "just one won't hurt" cigarette!!!!
I quit 3 years and 2 mos. ago when I was 43 and my son Arthur was 4 Mos old. I figured I wanted to see him be an adult. Nobody smoked more than me!!! I told everyone I smoked 3 packs a day but thats just when I stopped counting. I even gave up riding the LIRR when they got rid of the smoking cars!! Although I never was a drinker I used to accompany an old girlfriend to AA years ago. I remembered all their propaganda and applied it to smoking. It worked. Go one day at a time. Keep psyching yourself. Tell yourself that if you smoke you're letting that stupid white stick rule your life. And don't light that first cigarette!! If I just smoke one I will be back to 3 packs in 2 weeks!! Thats how it works.
Good Luck!!!
It's also the first drink that I won't take which won't get me drunk.
Wayne
A friend of Bill's (5 years, 4 may 2000)
The movie stigmata has our old friend subway car#51050 from the money train raceing through the tunnel,with the main stars bouncing around inside but when the train stops at the station guess what....it becomes a redbird i think the number is either 8235 or 8255....it's very hard to catch it in frame by frame as it blurred...any takers ?
As part of the vary the commute plan, I walked across Prospect Park to the Brighton at Prospect Park station. I had planned to do my hairshirt routine and board the Brigton, but I saw a shuttle pull out, and decided to take it instead. Observations:
1) Two train operation. The second shuttle was packed when it pulled in -- all teens. Its like the Coney Island bound F in the AM -- kids on their way to school.
2) Long wait -- as long as 10 minutes between trains.
3) The Brighton was crush loaded as usual. Glad I didn't take it.
4) The shuttle left Prospect Park quite full, but most people changed for the IRT.
5) Stall due to one track -- we had to wait for the train to come by in the other direction. No way to go back to two tracks. They built just about everything in the space where the second track would go, and all the bridges are one-track. As a Manny B alternate, they blew it.
6) The A doesn't exactly roar down the Fulton Line. I could almost pace it walking along the Franklin Ave platform.
7) The wait for the C is interminable -- on wonder most people squeeze onto the IRT. Arrive at Prospect Park: 8:00 a.m. Board a C train: 8:35.
The shuttle left Prospect Park quite full, but most people changed for the IRT.
Glad to hear it! Shows the wisdom of finally fixing the shuttle and providing that important connection.
Larry, glad to have another SubTalker give their views on the New Franklin Shuttle.
Your analysis contradicts one of our fellow SubTalkers who once remarked how the shuttle is useless because it never had heavy crowd conditions. Well, that person obviously never rode it during the rush hours!
And slowly, but surely, IRT subway riders are discovering -- most likely on their own -- the valuable connection to the Shuttle at Franklin Ave.
Doug aka BMTman
Don't be fooled. It was crowded because it runs infrequently and it has short trains.
A waste of $70 million
Thank you for your response, Oh Great Voice of Pessimism.
P.S. It doesn't run as infrequently as you may think.
Sorry, dude but it's the truth. Had they done the rehab right, with 2 tracks running the entire length, and the ability to handle full length trains, then the money spent can be justified. With it's present configuration, the FS is a total waste.
Yeah I must admit, it seemed pretty infrequent while I was sitting on it. A good ride for teens with lots of time, but not for anyone else.
Even half-length trains with two tracks would have been better.
If Brooklyn could have had its choice, it would have been better off with the DeKalb to Rutgers connection, and rebuilding the IRT junction at Franklin Ave.
So, I suppose your idea would have been to continue the street-clogging buses that only added to the traffic problems of Franklin and Bedford Aves.? (not to mention the additional air-pollution they create).
I agree that the Franklin Shuttle should have been kept as a two-track line, but in light of that, it still has the advantage of connecting the Brighton, Fulton Street and IRT lines together without customers having to leave the system. Is that so horrible? And I'm sure there are worse ways of wasting $70 Million (even though I don't consider it a waste).
Obviously, we see things differently.
Doug aka BMTman
Ignore him. He's a real Transit Know-It-All even though he hasn't worked a day in his life for the TA.
I sure know what I can see. You don't have to be a TA employee to see that the $70 million was a total waste of money used to rehab the shuttle in it's present condition. It's useless as an alternative if the Manhattan Bridge ever closes, and the one track portion linits headways to about 10 minutes, even during rush hours.
They did leave provisions for upgrading the line (the space between the actual platform at Park Place and the stationhouse, and the track is still on one side of the ROW, rather than in the middle). So if there were a long term Manhattan Bridge closure, or if the line ever becomes so popular they need to upgrade it, it would just take some relatively minor construction (reconfiguring the walkways and ramps of Park Pl., filling parts of the embankment with ballast for the other track and adding overpasses for it, etc)
03/05/2000
So there's room for a second track at Park Place? Doesn't wheelchair access now become a problem if a second track is added?
Bill Newkirk
I'm not exactly sure how they would do it. If the platform was converted to a true island, they might have left space under it so yould could pass under the new track and come up onto the platform, instead of using the bridge and ramps that would have to be removed. But it does look like they left provision for the other track.
If a second track was added, then it would be impossible for northbound trains to stop at Park Place without major reconstruction. There is no room to put in another side platform for northbound trains, and the southbound (and present day single track) would have to be moved to accomodate a center platform.
One of the main reasons why I stated that the $70 million used to rehab this line in this manner was a complete waste.
It would not have to be moved. There is space between the station house and the platform.
If Park Place were to revert to a 2 track island configuration, the new platform would have to be put in the exact same area the present day track is. This would require the new southbound track to be moved to where the present day single platform is. The station house does not sit on the ROW, but on a seperate adjoining piece of property the city bought for the reconstruction.
There is space between the platform and the stationhouse, designed for an additional track if necessary.
Not for an island platform. Installing that would require the existing track to be moved. And there isn't enough space on the other side to add another side platform.
The station was deliberately designed with room between the station house and the platform, there's a little bridge. Nothing would have to be moved.
For an island platform (the only way this stop could be expanded), it would certainly have to be moved. Note I'm talking about the track, not platform.
No. The current platfrom is in the same place as the old platform and the current track is the northbound track.
03/11/2000
There is one thing missing in this dispute with the Park Place platform. The line would have to be shut down again for months to correct the mistake and make it right.
I don't think the riding public would be very sympathic about this.
Bill Newkirk
The riding public is never sympathetic to anyting nothing is ever good enough.
Then where would you put the new southbound track?
Either way, serious reconstruction would be necessary to convert it to a 2-way staton. Which makes the whole shuttle useless as an alternative in case of a Manny B closure, which is really the sole reason this line should not have been completely abandoned.
We have discussed this ad nauseum. The platform is at the site of the original platform and the track is what was the northbound track. Southbound trains would obviously be on the other side of the platform!
I would think wheelchair-access could still be provided. The ramp would be made into a tight left or right-angled, ramp instead of the current straight-configured access.
Doug aka BMTman
An island platform with an elevator would have been the better way to go. The current configuration makes conversion to a 2 track station almost impossible without major reonstruction.
Perhaps that's what they would do, as I was saying. All they would have to do is move the bridge and ramps (relatively minor construction)and install a shaft. (There could be spaces for it somewhere)
I have yet to ride the new FS and this is the perfect weekend to do it (weather wise). Its funny that you mention the connection to the IRT. Ive only heard a few times that there was an actual transfer to the shuttle from the conductors on the 2,3,4,5 lines...... I guess pepole take the shuttle to the IRT instead of taking the D to Atlantic and have to wait for 2 or 3 trains to pass before they can board one. Now only the transfer between the 3 and L were to be built...........
3TM
03/05/2000
You must check out that transfer to the IRT. It really is nothing as far as footsteps. This connection was there all these years and nobody bothered to knock down a concrete wall.
Also it is possibly easlier to take the shuttle one stop to transfer to the IRT because when transfering at Atlantic, there are crowds galore in the rush hour and don't forget people keaving the LIRR to transfer. Maybe some people can gain a seat at Franklin instead of transfering at Atlantic.
Bill Newkirk
[Also it is possibly easlier to take the shuttle one stop to transfer to the IRT because when transfering at Atlantic, there are crowds galore in the rush hour and don't forget people keaving the LIRR to
transfer. Maybe some people can gain a seat at Franklin instead of transfering at Atlantic.]
I don't know what the situation is like at Franklin, but I can say without reservation, based on occasionally taking the LIRR to Flatbush, that it is absolutely impossible to get a seat on IRT trains at Atlantic during morning rush. The 2, 3 and 5 are completely jammed. The 4 generally isn't quite as crowded at the other ones, but there certainly aren't any seats.
You are not getting a seat on the express at Franklin. Maybe the local, but not the express........
3TM
During the morning rush, the #5 actually runs out of seats before leaving Flatbush Ave. People actually backtrack, taking the 5 southbound, then waiting on the same train to head towards Manhattan.
I have seen the transfer at Franklin. I taken pics of it as well. I went on the platform at Botanic Gardens. This is the closest to getting to the "new" shuttle. As for the seat thing, you are not getting a seat at Franklin. It is mostly SRO, if that alone......
3TM
If it's an A train of R-44s, then, yes, it does move along at an undesireable pace. The R-38s move more swiftly along that stretch.
i just got off the phone with salaam allah--- i did not get to meet up with him today--- but he filmed the j and the l lines, and was at broadway junction in brooklyn looking for an r-38 to head out to rockaway--- he hopes to get some night shots on that line--- yesterday he redid the #5 line and also shot the path train--- he will be leaving new york tomorrow and heading back to los angeles by car---
he sent his regards to all of us and regrets at not being able to meet some of us--- i wished him a safe trip back to the west coast
Great! At least he was able to get to Broadway Junction and video tape there! I expect in a few years that a big chunk of that great structure will be no more and capturing it now for future viewing is the best thing salaam could have accomplished. After all, he didn't get to ride the A Line out to the Rockaways, but that route is not likely to change for all eternity.
Say, Paul (as opposed to heypaul), were you able to find out from salaam if he did his video-taping on the Canarsie Line from a railfan window of a Slant R-40? I know that would have made his day.
See ya at 14th & 8th Ave. tomorrow.
Doug aka BMTman
first doug--- you should know better than to address me as Say Paul--- you're likely to confuse Paul Matus--- address me as Say heypaul or maybe even
Hey saypaul
i don't know whether salaam filmed any shots of the structure--- he was calling me from a payphone at broadway junction and he was complaining that the structure was really shaking--- he said that if he were in la he would be afraid that there was an earthquake--- i am serious about this--- plus he seemed to be getting tired from holding the camera to the window
i didn't ask him if he caught a slant on the l--- i am also pretty sure that he didn't run into the r110 either as i heard reports on my decoder ring that it was running on the grand central shuttle with all 6 cars :-)
yes i hope to see you and the others tomorrow--- if i end up waiting for nothing at 8th ave and 14th, my next post on subtalk will be a flame attack that will guarantee i will be barred from subtalk as well as the rest of the internet....
The R-10/R-62 prototype will come out to be something good! The R-10 had speed and so does the R-62. But the technology is different. These days only the R-62, and R-42 or 44 (I forgot which one) have the speed! I say combine the R-10 and R-62 technology, with also a little new technology and we will get a car that will be fast, comfortable, and leave the other cars in the dust. I am talking about cars that go up to 90 mph on LIRR tracks. I do not know. They will be stainless steel and have the body of an R-62. Speed of the R-10/R-62 easy to use for both conductors and train drivers. I can see the car. We can make it BMT and IRT. The speed will be incredible. Just seeing a BMT car faster then the R-10 and a car faster then the R-62. Also there will be a railfan window!
Altoids has joined the list of return appearnces. They will go on sale at 7am on 3/13/2000 at these statiosn:
J LINE:
Alabama, Van Siclen,Cleveland, Norwood,Crescent, Cyoress Hills,Elderts Lane,Forest Pkwy, Woodhaven, 102,111,121
A LINE:
Lefferts, Aqueduct,Howard Beach, Broad Channel, Beach (B)90,B98,B105,B116,B67,B60, B44, B36, B25, Mott Ave (Far Rock)
CONCOURSE LINE(B,D):
167,170,174,Tremont, Fordham, Kingsbridge, Bedford Park, 205
3 LINE:
All stations from Sutter to New Lots
[Alabama, Van Siclen,Cleveland, Norwood,Crescent, Cyoress Hills]
Have Altoids been around for as long as these stations have?
I wanna know something. How does Amtrak work their Engineers? Do they do the same thing a pilot's Boss would? for example, I drive the Train from Penn Station. This Train is headed for Ocala Florida. Will I go all the way to Florida? Also, Say I left, Sunnyside Yard on Monday coming. When Would I tell my Children I will be back? Also, The Train leaves Penn Station at 8:00. When do I stop and then Return to New York City? Also another thing, If a Train left Lorton Virginia, at 8:00 how is the Engineer able to go up till 3:00 without stopping? is there a Bathroom in Amtrak's Locomotives? Cause their P32DM Genesis Trains look Different than Metro-North's Genesis Trains. Also, where does the Amtrak Trains that go over the Hell Gate Bridge, where do those Trains Go? also what do you think the Life Expectancy of the Genesis P32DM's will be? I am 17 going on 18 in December. Do you think I will be able to operate a Genesis? Also, what is the Fastest that Amtrak is allowed to go? Also, is it True that to be an Engineer, I must gain experience from another Railroad?
Please post a response when u read this and if not, Email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com
How come almost every thread on this board ends up being about Rudy, Hillary, racism, sports, food, old TV/radio/movies,... in short, anything but trains?
PLEASE, let's keep the extraneous stuff off the board. There are plenty of newsgroups, chat rooms, etc., where it is appropriate for people talk about these things. The political stuff always degenerates into personal attacks on the posters, and the other items lose their entertainment value quickly.
Rant mode off :-)
David
Why is it that it's always the same person who comes in complaining about thread drift and trying to be a pathetic netcop?
It's not.
This reminds me about a movie I once saw. It was about a senate race in New York state and the big issue was food.....
1999 will NOT be the last summer of the redbirds for 2 reasons. Once the R-142 has entered the fleet the R-62's will more likely go into an overhaul, which will take 2 years to complete, so the redbirds will remain for the 2 years to help. The crowds will not be happy if the R-33/36's were gone, and then the R-62's were overhauled. They need the R-62's to be overhauled or the same fate will happen that the R-16 had. 2002 will be the last of the redbirds. Also the MTA on their site said that R-62's will last 20 more years before new cars replace them. Have fun for 2 more years or 1999 will indeed be the last summer of the redbirds.
The R62 will not need the immense overhaul the redbirds got 10+ years ago. Redbirds will last even longer than 2002, because there aren't enough R142's to replace them all.
>>Redbirds will last even longer than 2002,
>> because there aren't enough R142's to replace them all.
Yeeeeeeeeha!!
Well, there WOULD be if they exercised their option orders (#6981-7210 for R142; #7611-7760 for R142A). Have they decided whether or not to go for the option orders?
Wayne
I thought that the 400 from Kawasaki and the 680 from Bombardier were the only ones being delivered. I didn't know the R142 contract had an option, like the R143 contract did (which the TA excercized already)
yeah go here http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/ and go to the R-142 look at the top. It says primary order and then option order.
Actually the option has be exercised because If ya'll remember, I posted pics here of R-142As being delivered across the George Washington Bridge, when I did some research on the cars which happen to be numbered 7209 and 7210, those are part of the option order, NOT THE PRIMARY! SO, I thing the options has been taken!
Trevor
Correct on some counts, wrong on others:
1999 will not be the last year for the Redbirds. In fact, it's possible that no Redbirds will be removed from service this year (outside of heavily damaged cars). The R-142 and R-142A pilot trains will both undergo 30-day reliability tests starting in very late spring or the summer. Since the 30-day clock restarts with any (every?) failure, it's likely that the 30-day test will take much longer than 30 days. Once the pilot cars pass the test, assuming no changes to the equipment are necessary, the contractor will begin to deliver the cars at a rate of 30 or 40 cars a month. Since the plan is to increase the fleet by between 120 and 150 cars, it's probable that no cars will be retired until 120-150 new cars are on the property and in service.
Moreover, it was never intended that the 1,080 R-142 and R-142A cars would replace all 1,400 (give or take) Redbirds. A follow-on order (or orders) totaling 470 cars will take care of the rest of the Redbirds. These cars are planned to be ordered this year, subject to approval of the MTA's capital program (which hasn't happened yet). Given the time to produce cars after they're ordered, don't expect to even begin seeing them for another two years, and don't expect it to take less than a year or so for the cars to be delivered.
As for an overhaul of the R-62 car class, since the late 1980s NYCT has been engaged in a program called SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System), under which the design life of each component in each car class has been determined, and the component is replaced before the design life is reached. The R-62s (along with most other car classes) have received major work on a pretty steady basis over the past few years. The work may not all be visible, but it's there. One visible thing that's coming: new floors.
David
03/04/2000
I believe that any overhauls to the R-62 and 62A fleets will be minor ones. I predict new floors as stated before, cleaning inside and out, repainting the end bonnets, replacement of all sratched windows, and maybe electronic side signs just like on the R-142's. Possibly also overhauled trucks and repairs to the propulsion system to elminate bucking.
Also on the scratched window problem. I believe those articulated buses now in Manhattan have plastic covering the windows that can be replaced if scratched. Has this been at least tested in the subway ??
Bill Newkirk
The R-142 and R-142A fleets will have a sacrificial window layer. It was tested on some (if not all -- I forget) R-62s.
David
and maybe electronic side signs just like on the R-142's.
I wonder if in addition to electronic signs, if the MTA wants to make the R62 even more like the new R142 and R142A, and have next stop indicators inside as well as pre-recorded, computerized announcements. Here in Boston, the T is doing just that to the Type 7's on the Green Line so they can work with the type 8s. But of course, the R142 and R62A wouold never work together.
As for new floors and scratchproof windows....it's about time! -Nick
BLACK FLOORS, maybe? THAT would be nice.
Wayne
Indications are that the flooring will indeed be black. It'll be similar (though probably not identical) to that installed on the few R-68As that got black flooring.
David
Cool. I love those black floors. Really cuts down on the glare on the R68's.
Chris, you can't say that yet as no R-68s have the black flooring.
er, R68A's. Forgot to be exact.
Didn't they give that fire-damaged R68 (#2579) a black floor during the repair?
Wayne
The group switch box burnt along with the grids and wiring but there was no floor damage that I am aware of.
03/04/2000
Possibly a car cleaner saving in there? You know, flattened chewing gum won't look as obvious as with the tan floors. Ditto for dirt on the floor !!
Bill Newkirk
The few R68As = 16 R68As
Yes, and I hope they retrofit the R62's with those unsegmented bench seats you occasionally see on the R62's on the #4 line.
What seats???
The flat bench seats built into cars 1586-1591 (yes, 6 cars).
David
03/04/2000
Yes, the R-62/62A seats except for those corrected ones were not designed for the New York City ass! They could always rip out those bucket seats and install the ones from the scrapped R-40's !!
Bill Newkirk
(my achin' back!)
They are designed for the NYC Ass. Just not the FAT ASS. Honestly, I've never had a problem.
-Hank
I actually wish there were benches on the R-62 as this would let you sit in the MIDDLE between two people. Before you complain that that kills seats, if someone wanted to sit, they'd realise the spread and tell everyone to scooch over.
The seats from the R-40s? Isn't that just trading a width problem for a contour problem? If they're going to take them from a soon-to-be scrapped train, take them from the R-26/28s.
Not only will new flooring be apparent, you will FEEL it as well. The R62s at 207 Main Shop are getting stainless steel pans with some kind of insert in place of any plywood that was removed. I think they finally figured out the plywood and sheet metal doesn't work. It is a shame it took the TA all that money to find out.
I really disagree. The R-46 sub-flooring is a combination of stainless steel & galvanized steel with a chemically treated 1 1/4" sheet of plywood & insulation sandwiched between the two metal sheets. I saw it tested in a furnace and it withstood 1500+ degrees for 35 minutes and the linolium covering remained undamaged. The R-46 sub-flooring is now 9 years old and is as good as the day it was installed - carwash chemicals not withstanding. That's over 6,000 car years of use. The new subflooring is nice but let's not beat the drums too soon. When we have 5,000 car-years of service on the new floors then let's see how they hold up.
I was referring to the horrible flooring of the R32 and R38 cars. I know the rubber tongue and groove seals of the OPTO mods do NOT keep the spray out of the cars. The flooring swells up and is cut and torn in many places. I think they should not have gone with plywood. I'm definately going with flashing cement and tiles when the spring rolls around when it comes to work at TMNY. It sounds like a good design you describe but there is a weak link somewhere that water can get into the plywood plank and ruins the whole job. I even see it occuring on R44s so it can't be that good. 6398's floor lasted a hell of a lot longer than 10 years.
The R-32 floor problem may be more complicated than material and environment. It may alo have been complicated by engineering mistakes. While TA engineering blamed Morrison Knudsen and Morrison knudsen blamed TA Engineering, there is a school of thought that the flooring on the R-32s might have been installed upside-down during overhaul. With the galvanized side up and the stainless side down, the steel-clad ply failed pre-maturely. Of course, this is only one theory.
It is really bad in some cars. For some reason I see the most patches in the #2 doorway. Any timetable when the new flooring is going to be installed. Some of the cars are getting really bad!
Late 2000 for the R-32s but I'm not sure if it will be Jamaica, Coney Island or Pitkin R-32s that are done first. More than likely, Pitkin/Jamaica phase I's will be first but ...........
03/05/2000
Has the TA every thought of using "wonderboard" in place of plywood? Don't let the name fool you, wonderboard doesn't contain any wood. it's primarily used for residential floors in bathroom with ceramic tiles on the surface. Wonderboard can't be cut with a traditional wood saw blade too, but it is also heavier than plywood.
Bill Newkirk
Wonderboard might be too rigid for the floor of a subway car. It is also too heavy at the thicknesses required. Magnesite (formerly used on the R-1 through R-15) was resilliant, easy to repair but was also too heavy.
03/04/2000
Has 207th St shops started on the reflooring of the R-62's ?
I heard that Coney Island shops next big project is reflooring of R-68's IIRC, since the R-68 unitizing program is either over or drawing to a close.
Bill Newkirk
I'll get numbers some time this week as the reflooring has begun. I'm wondering why 207 got an overhaul contract for rehabbing R42s if Coney Island has nothing to do. The floors on the R68 can't be that bad. Unless the floor is moving faster than the hippo.
there is a movie called bye bye braverman with george segal,jack warden, sorrell brooke and alan king about a bunch of friends riding all over brooklyn trying to go to the funeral of a friend--- it had some wonderful aerial shots of the broadway junction elevated structure as i remember
I concur. The four friends drive all over Brooklyn looking for a funeral parlor, and there are several scenes of a Brooklyn that has changed considerably since 1967, when it was filmed. If it comes on TNT or AMC or something, don't miss it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think its a hilarious movie with alot of good footage all over Brooklyn. The four guys are looking for a Jewish funeral home while riding in a VW Beetle and there is a debate among them about whether Jews should drive Volkswagons. If I'm correct George Segall is in it. I can't remember the other names but I can picture all of them.
03/04/2000
There is one scene where they drive over the Williamsburg Bridge and they are pacing an R-16 #15 train. Is this movie out on video ?
Bill Newkirk
I don't think so. I've been looking for it on all the book & video sites such as Amazon, Barnes & Noble, etc. and nobody has it.
I think I remember a phone-booth scene from that movie that was shoot at or near the intersection of Flatbush Ave. and Cortelyou Road.
VERRRRY funny movie as I recall.
Does anyone know if it is available on video? I'd love to have a copy of it.
(By 1960's standards, that movie appeared to have been an independent, low-budget type production that may have gotten "lost in the suffle" of video releases.)
Doug aka BMTman
>>>(By 1960's standards, that movie appeared to have been an independent, low-budget type production
that may have gotten "lost in the suffle" of video releases.) <<<
LOTS of films set in NYC at that time have a rough hewn, gritty feel to them, such as Taking Of Pelham 123, The Incident, and The French Connection.
These days, films are much more stylized. NYPD uses a guy shaking the camera and pointing it at an angle. Too much pretense...
www.forgotten-ny.com
03/04/2000
PRIORITY ONE ! Let's search and see if this movie is on video. That scene of the R-16 #15 Jamaica Local on the Williamsburg Bridge is burned in my memory.
Bill Newkirk
>>>PRIORITY ONE ! Let's search and see if this movie is on video. That scene of the R-16 #15 Jamaica Local
on the Williamsburg Bridge is burned in my memory.<<<
I looked in amazon, bn.com and reel.com. Nada. Perhaps someone is sellling it in ebay.
Remember, tens of thousands of films have been released since 1965; many are out of print, and many just plain never made it to a video release.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I saw "Bye, Bye, Braverman" when it first came out, and again recently on TV. One of the other starts was Joseph Wiseman, who played Dr. No in the James Bond film of that name.
When it came out in the theaters, it was not around for a very long time. Its content was heavily philosophical, and thus way over the heads of the "great unwashed" or the "Booboisie".
Bob Sklar
As a daily commuter on the Broad Street Subway, I notice this:
A local and an express train are waiting on the northbound platform at Girard Station exchanging passangers. The local closes its dorrs, and then the express does so, and the trains startup at the same time (give a little more time for the local because of OPTO). But as the trains start up at the same time, the local is moving significantly *faster* than the express, and keeps doing so until the local has to slow down for Cecil B. Moore Station. The same holds true for the southbound platform at Olney.
Does anyone know of other locations were this happens? Or better yet, why this happens?
This happens often northbound in the morning on the 4,5,6 at Union Square. A number 6 and 4 or 5 train will be at the station, and they will both leave at the same time. The 6 will end up going faster than the 4 or 5 until about 23rd Street, where it will be passed. Then at 28th Street the 6 catches up and they're neck and neck. The 4 or 5 will continue at a slower than normal pace, and will end up slowing down right after the signal at 33rd Street. This gives the 6 time to discharge passengers at 33rd, and then it will pass the express once more. Usually the 6 and the 4 or 5 will arrive in GCT at the same time, but the 6 opens the doors faster. The reason for this is the assed traffic on the express line. An express might not come for about 5-6 minutes, letteing the ones behind it "back-up". The train who is late remains at the stations longer because it takes more time to discharge passengers. If the 6 were 5 minutes late, it would really not make a difference since there is a 6 about every 7 minutes.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
Yes but that is due to a delay on the express. Try leaving on an A local from 125 Street Southbound with an R68 across the platform. My train would be stopped at 116 before the first car of the D passes my window. Thats slow! R68s RULE!
And let me guess, most passangers don't realize this, making the express much more crowded than the 6 at this point?
The key is PERCEPTION, not REALITY.
An express is always perceived to operate faster because it skips all those stations. The fact that it does so at 1 foot per year is irrelevant - people want the privilege of bypassing stops, and will wait up to 10 minutes or more to "save" one or two minutes. As a result, whatever running time is "saved" BETWEEN stops is lost in dwell time AT each stop.
Add to that the effect of timers, plus people who must hold the doors at all costs (because every train is the very last, or because Straphangers is paying them to sabotage service), and it's a wonder that anything moves at all.
[That's also why some Limited-Stop buses are no faster than their local counterparts.]
Most morning rush hours, you can make much better time on an inbound local from 71-Continental to Queens Plaza. Many times, it I stay on the express, we jerk-n-start from Woodhaven to Roosevelt, and again into the Plaza while numerous locals pass us.
The southbound 2/3 slows down for 42nd just after passing through 50th. At the same location, 1/9 trains are just getting up to speed. If an express meets a local just south of 50th, the local will typically reach 42nd first.
Same for the A-C-E! The "A" will close its doors the same time at 14th Street heading uptown at the same time as a Uptown "C" or "E" and due to the stupid timers (God why) the "C" or "E" train will get to 23rd Stop and still get to 34th Street just ahead of the "A".
Thats some B/S!
Why create a express if your gonna "f" it up by putting in timers and still allowing the local to be faster. This is so well proven. I took a Local C from 59th Street to 168th Street and still met up with the same "A" that left with us at 59th, At 168th!!!!!
The "A" is plagued with timers!
Trevor
Seems to me, then, that NYC Transit is trying to "kill" express service altogether.
When I first discovered the subway in the "dark" days of 1984-85 I was impressed by the great speed on the 8th ave, Lex, and Queens Blvd expresses. But last time I was up there (Aug. '98) I was downright bored with the beloved Lex. Sounds like those darned GTs have made things even worse :..(
You ain't just whistling dixie, bub!
One morning rush hour, I boarded an inbound 'A' at East New York as a 'C' loaded across the platform. We moved along at normal express speed, and then sat in the middle of Lafayette Avenue we waited for the same 'C' to pass us, move in front of us and go through Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Kinda defeats the purpose of an express, no? Unless this was the first 'C' in a while, and the dispatcher was ordered to put it through first-
Locals have seemed to go faster than expresses between stations for years.
Northbound A trains have crawled past 23rd St. since the IND first opened, I would imagine. Even 30 years ago, when the R-10s still dominated that line, they would slow to a crawl when approaching 23rd St. The few R-1/9 express trains I rode on along that stretch didn't get much higher than F# below middle C. Last fall, the first northbound A train of R-38s I was on actually breezed past 23rd at about 25 mph, which was by far and away the fastest uptown run past that station I had ever experienced.
Speaking of the 2 and 3 blowing past 50th St. southbound, yes, they do hit the brakes just as they reach that station, which is a bummer. Last fall, however, I was on a 3 train headed by R-62A 1969 which got up to 47 mph at 50th St., and it kept right on going. It didn't start slowing down until we were more than halfway to Times Square. Even the R-21/22s never did that.
Locals have seemed to have an edge on expresses for years. Perhaps the signals on the local tracks are set up to keep those trains moving along. I remember how on many occasions a southbound A train would leave 34th St. at the same time as an E train. Heading down 8th Ave., the two trains would be neck-and-neck, or perhaps the E would gain a slight edge, the bull and pinion gears on the R-6/7s wailing away at E or F above middle C. Sure, those old-timers were swift, but so were the R-10s. Of course, I knew all along that the A train I was on wouldn't be stopping at 23rd St., and soon enough, the E train would start slowing down while the A kept going, blowing past 23rd St. and, with that downhill run to 14th St., putting on a burst of speed before blasting into 14th St.
Once in a while, you'd get lucky and blow by a local train between stations.
On the No.6 Line I beat the Express from Grand Central to Union Square during the AM Rush. I normally connect with a No.5 at Grand Central. I usually get the Jump and the No.5 Normally has a Yellow around 33 Street. Then the No.5 slowly passes but once again I beat him to 28 Street and take off before he passes again. Then when I enter 14 Street I pull up along side the No.4 Train ahead. The No.4 closed it doors before my Conductor Opens the Doors which is good. Then as the No.5 makes a stop we leave before they open up. The No.5 does pass us at Astor Place.
I hear that the Park Ave. straightaway isn't what it used to be regarding express runs, although a 4 train I was on last October got up to 40 mph at 23rd St. before slowing down for the rest of the trip to Union Square. Same thing between Union Square and Brooklyn Bridge. The expresses crawl more often than not.
On the Broad Street local, I forget the car number, I saw some grafitti (blue spray paint, on the celing and the walls, not some scratch grafitti).
Saturday the Embarcadero segment of the F Trolley line opens to the Fisherman's Wharf area. This lines features rehabbed PCC's and some ex'Milan Peter Witt's. Although operated to tap several major tourist attractions the line is an integral part of Muni and by far the best run part of the system. When you are out here check iy out. you may also visit for more info and pix
Pardon http://www.streetcar.org/ got left out above
I had an argument with a generally pro-auto, anti-transit co-worker yesterday. He believes that when the census is in, the share of NYC households with one or more cars will go up from 1990 to 2000. I believe it will go down.
Which do you think? If the thread is picked up, I'll chime in with some statistics on past trends.
BTW, the bet is the percent of households with one or more "vehicles available" in their household, not the total number of cars. The total number of cars can go up even if the percent with a car goes down, because there are more households, and because those households with cars are more likely to have two or three rather than one.
Is this bet on what the true facts are or on what the Census records? If the latter, the outcome of your bet may depend on the comparative effectiveness of the 2000 Census vs. the 1990 Census in recording facts about people at the bottom end. Are you going to ignore the data collection issues?
(True facts or as reported)
Good question. I guess we'll have to go with as reported.
And my first fact. We now know that the census bureau failed to identify and send questionaires to almost 400,000 NYC housing units in 1990, due to problems with the address list. These units were in all neighborhoods -- rich, middle class, working class, mostly in the boroughs outside Manhattan. This error is over and above the problems people knew about. Pending an appeal, these folks may get counted this time.
...these folks may get counted this time...
I wouldn't count on it. The first mailing to 120 million citizens had mistakes on all the addresses.
I must be in the 120 million, as the only Census 2000 info I have is what I get in the various media. Nothing from the Census Department.
I also have yet to get my pre-census letter, and am starting to get worried. BTW, the Wisconsin congressional delegation has been a big opponent of the census and efforts to get more people counted, since their own population is not growing. Was politics involved in giving the contract to a Wisconsin company which then SCREWED UP BIG TIME! Who is to say. With both Democrats and Republicans culpable (as in the S&L scandal), I doubt we'll see much of an investigation.
I'll say the percentage of households with one or more cars will be up slightly (3%?) for the whole city. According to the S.I. Advance there are twice as many cars registered to S.I. addresses now than 10 years ago. But the S.I. population has surely not doubled. I think the additional cars here belong to the younger families with two cars moving here and the kids of baby-boomers now reaching driving age (like 17-year olds with BMWs). I'm also assuming more vehicles per household in prosperous northeastern Queens and even southwestern Brooklyn (Dyker heights, Bay Ridge). So Queens and Staten Island will boost the citywide number up a bit.
The increase will not be great because many of the new immigrants to the city may have no cars or one car per household. What was the percentage for 1990??
(What was the percentage in 1990?)
In 1990, 46 percent of NYC households had at least one vehicle, up from 44 percent in 1960. But the shift of population from Brooklyn to Staten Island accounts for a lot of that. From 1960 to 1990, the share of households with one or more cars in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx went down, but these boroughs lost people. It went up very slightly in Staten Island and Manhattan, and these boroughs gained people, so the citywide figure went up.
[I had an argument with a generally pro-auto, anti-transit co-worker yesterday. He believes that when the census is in, the share of NYC households with one or more cars will go up from 1990 to 2000. I believe it will go down.
Which do you think? If the thread is picked up, I'll chime in with some statistics on past trends.]
I'll say that it's probably gone down, though very slightly. There are more jobs in Manhattan today than in 1990, and people generally don't need cars to get there. Elimination of two-fare zones probably has made transit use more attractive in many parts of the outer boroughs. Finally, the costs of car acquisition and ownership have been going up and up.
I'll throw in a guess that it goes up. From an economic standpoint, times are much better today for a broader cross-section of New Yorkers than they were in the late 80's.
Does anyone have any idea what the assessed valuation is of all of the non-exempt real estate in Manhattan East of the center line of Third Avenue from Houston Street to the Harlem River? How much of a real estate tax surcharge on those properties would be required in each of the next 10 years to cover the cash requirements of that year for building the Second Avenue line from 125th Street to Christie Street?
One could argue that people living in those buildings have already paid for the Second Avenue Subway. Their property taxes are high enough.
A special assessment has been discussed for the #7 line extension. The west side has enormous development potential which the subway would help realize, and you could use some of the additional taxes to pay off the bonds for the line.
But the East Side is pretty built out, and apartments are charged higher taxes than small homes in NYC. It would be more fair to take a share of the existing taxes and build the subway.
Non-exempt -- those are fighting words. As far as I'm concerned, those hospitals on the East Side are more money grubbing than any for-profit business. They should start paying property taxes. If they did, a couple would probably close, and the taxes on the reused property would probably be enough to build the subway.
One could argue that New Yorkers are better at arguing than at getting anything built. An intelligent argument requires data. Anyone have any idea what the assessed valuation is of the property I described in my first post?
You could probably find information for all of Manhattan on the NYC Department of Finance website. A special data run would be required for more localized data. City Planning could do it if it received a census tract file with the tracts you wanted to include (or a tax block file), but I'm not sure it would.
In any event, you are talking about an area that already pays an above average share of the city's taxes, since apartments are taxes at a higher share of full value than small homes (like mine). Despite this, they have the most crowded subways. And, a full length Second Avenue Subway with connections would benefit the other areas as well.
Perhaps the city could dedicate the revenues from the increase in taxable real estate on the East Side resulting from new constructoin to the subway, arguing that the subway is needed to accomodate this growth. I believe a local ordinance would be all that is required. However, the city requires all the money it can get for Medicaid.
I wanna know something. How does Amtrak work their Engineers? Do they do the same thing a pilot's Boss would? for example, I drive the Train from Penn Station. This Train is headed for Ocala Florida. Will I go all the way to Florida? Also, Say I left, Sunnyside Yard on Monday coming. When Would I tell my Children I will be back? Also, The Train leaves Penn Station at 8:00. When do I stop and then Return to New York City? Also another thing, If a Train left Lorton Virginia, at 8:00 how is the Engineer able to go up till 3:00 without stopping? is there a Bathroom in Amtrak's Locomotives? Cause their P32DM Genesis Trains look Different than Metro-North's Genesis Trains. Also, where does the Amtrak Trains that go over the Hell Gate Bridge, where do those Trains Go? also what do you think the Life Expectancy of the Genesis P32DM's will be? I am 17 going on 18 in December. Do you think I will be able to operate a Genesis? Also, what is the Fastest that Amtrak is allowed to go? Also, is it True that to be an Engineer, I must gain experience from another Railroad?
Please post a response when u read this and if not, Email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com
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Will you give it a rest!? You've asked this question like 5 times. I don't think anybody really knows. Find an Amtrak related MB or website, I think they'd be much more qualified to answer your questions.
If it helps, the PH-40 DOES have a bathroom--in the nose of the locomotive. I am sure that the new ones would also because it can be quite some time between questions.
I will be taking the City of New Orlenas train next week. I can ask the engineer (they use Genisis locos) and report back.
Remember Amtrak Train CREW (not service personnel as in Hotel Service) are covered by the federal 12 hour drop dead law.
Does anyone have a complete listing of all of the IRT Destination Sign Readings
from the R33 to the present
Thanks
Steve
Please note,,,there were NO Service Changes or proposals discussed in this months book
Steve
Hi
Does anyone have a complete ,up to date ,service plan ,for the opening of 63 st Tunnel ,,including the Letter Designations
Steve (thanks)
There is no plan yet. Just speculation (a favorite pastime in here).
NO, NO, A THOUSAND TIMES NO!
Sorry for shouting... I'm just getting sick of seeing this question come up at least twice a week. When there really is one, don't worry, it WILL get posted here!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My father told me that a few days ago, he read an article saying that AMTRAK is starting a transcontinental route from New York to Los Angeles? Does anyone know if this is a fact?
Yes, it was announced by AMTRAK earlier this week. The story was on WCBS Newsradio-88, as well as in the New York Time. No details were given, other than to say it would a "luxury service."
I am confused, you can take Amtrak from NYC to LA but you have to change trains at least once. SOOO
This is direct service?? No change of trains required?? I would hate to be out west and not in SuperLiner which can not operate in the northeast with the exception of DC by a certain route.
Direct Service in non SuperLiner is not fore me thank you.
I don't think superliners fit into Penn Station anyway.
Also what route do you think this train will take out of New York? Will it traverse the current NE Corridor mainline? Or will it go up the Hudson Valley line?
The latter would be a historical plus, as would starting the train at Grand Central if that were to occur. The original transcontinental route from NY-LA, the "20th Century Limited", began at Grand Central.
The 20th Century wasn't a transcontinental - it ended in Chicago. There has NEVER been a transcontinental passenger train in the United States. The closest anyone has ever come is "change in Chicago".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Sunset counts as a transcon. And I'm told that while there wasn't a Single train, they did have cross-country pullman cars that were switched in Chicago.
-Hank
did the national limited have a thur sleeper when amtrack started. the car was change in kanas city with a 12 hour layover (or so)
Mea culpa, I forgot about the modern Sunset Limited. There were PRR cars that went through on the UPpity and NYC cars that ran via the Santa Fink (both PRR and NYC linked up with other roads as well, I just don't remember who with which - I know somebody connected via the SP as well) but I don't consider that a true transcontinental since it wasn't the same train.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And IIRC, it didn't last very long anyways....But as far as this 'new' service is concerned, I BELIEVE they were talking about adding some Viewliners for the service. Also they aren't real sure what route they'll use. A real nice route would be straight out to Denver via St Louis, KC, and the UP secondary Main..then follow the old Desert Wind route down thru Vegas...I thin a nice one seat ride from the East Coast to Vegas would be a real easy sell...Also, as has been suggested, up the Hudson Route thru Chicago then thru the old Burlington/UP Main route to Denver...(Then they could sell the politicians from Nebraska and such that theyre giving sevice other than at 3 am!)
Since Amtrak no longer uses GCT it is unlikely they would come back just to use the water level route.
They can still do it, they just use the Spuyten Duyvil cutoff.
-Hank
It'll definately be single-level equipment. According to the story, the train would be run in partnership with a private company (mentioned was American Orient Express). Likely, it would be an all-sleeper train, which would be Viewliners. The article also mentions that Amtrak will be seeking more capital $$$ for additional locos and cars.
-Hank
Any indication of what ROUTE the new NY-LA trans-con will take? I can think of several:
* Current Lake Shore or Pennsylvanian to Chicago, then SW Chief;
* As above to Chicago, then the former Desert Wind thru Denver, Salt Lake City, Las Vegas to LA;
* As above to Chicago, then via Texas Eagle/Sunset Ltd;
* Current Crescent to New Orleans, then via Sunset Ltd;
* Current Crescent into proposed new branch to Fort Worth, then via Texas Eagle/Sunset Ltd.
According to what I heard it will go through Chicago. I have not heard any specifics as to which route it will take between NY and Chicago or Chicago and LA, although it is supposed to be an existing route, which rules out the former Desert Wind (wish they'd bring that one back, my older daughter & her husband and children live in Las Vegas).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
it is supposed to be an existing route, which rules out the former Desert Wind....
Depending on how you look at it, Las Vegas should become an Amtrak route again by September 2000 when Amtrak starts running Talgo service from Los Angeles to Las Vegas. Granted, that still leaves Salt Lake City to Vegas as a gap on the route map. However, as you can go from Washington DC to LA without changing your sleeper on the Capitol Ltd./Southwest Chief run-through, then running the new service from NY to LA via Chi/Denver/Salt Lake City/Vegas would be very attractive and serve two West Coast markets, not just one, without duplicating an existing route.
I agree it would be nice, but I don't believe that will happen. They are building a new station in Las Vegas for the LA service that will not connect easily with the line to Salt Lake City.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
1st I would assume that the route would go thru Chicago since that's another of the major Amtrak hubs, i.e. fill it up at NYC & Chicago with Amtrak feeder trains.
2nd: [The article also mentions that Amtrak will be seeking more capital $$$ for additional locos and cars.]
I thought Amtrak was getting out of the government subsidy business, is this long haul service supose to pay for itself ? Even if they try to fill it up with a lot of packages (as said in another part of this thread) wouldn't it still come far short of paying it's way ? So, what is this announcement dumb Amtrak mngt. or something serious ?
Mr t__:^)
Amtrak self-sufficiency is a joke. The idea is that Amtrak will no longer need operating subsidies. The government will still provide the capital dollars.
-Hank
The story I saw said Amtrak was trying to create their own type of "hub-spur" system, similar to the way airlines operate, in order to increase its "non-passenger" (i.e. package transport) services. Going by that, there could be a couple of ways to get from New York to L.A., none of them exactly a direct route until you get into the Rocky Mountains, where they system only has one or two lines it can use to get through the area.
Isn't there already a trans-continental route through the south from L.A. to Jacksonville, FL?
The Sunset Limited is the train you're thinking about. Under the new routing, the line will change its route though Texas, going northwest from Houston to Dallas-Fort Worth, and from there to El Paso. That will allow Amtrak to connect it up with the Texas Eagle coming from Chicago and St. Louis, to make the city more of a 'hub' location.
As far as being part of the New York to L.A route, I'm sure they'll have something more direct west of Chicago. New York to L.A. via Chicago and Dallas is not exactly a straight line.
I'm going on the mother of all feid trips. I'm going to do the entire sytem plus SIRT. Hopefully i'll start at 5:00 A.M. at Tottenville at end up Whitehall at around 12:45 A.M. It will be me and two other friends. I already have my route planed out and schedueled to go during the summer of this year. I don't think that I'll invite any subtalkers to come. (I don't think that there be a big turn out of people) I just thought i would tell you guys.
Isn't the NYCS world record like 22 hours? R U planning to break this record? If not, has anyone here thgought about it? One could use computer models to plan the best route.
What i heard was that no one has done the entire subway plus the SRIT, so no matter what time i finish, i will set a new record
i have several of salaam's videos--- i am currently editing them down to one trip on each line --- i then will ride the whole nyc subway system by video from the comfort of my home--- taking into account the time required to change cassettes, i have calculated that it will take me about 12 hours to ride the whole system :>)
R U going to Ferry it and then SIRT? Here's an idea, try and ride every part of the NYC transit system including all the buses, LIRR, Metro-North, PATH and Metro-North West-of-Hudson service. Find a sopnsor and a cause and do it over spring break.
SIRT and then the ferry, the SIRT is where i'm going to start from. And i don't have the time or the kind of money needed to do somthing like that. My trip will only use $3 consideing that the Ferry is free
Are you going to do thew SIRT from St. George to St. George, or take the S-76 bus from Grasmiere to the R at Fourth Ave. and 86th St. (or vice-versa -- R to the bus to the SIRT).
I would think a round trip on the SI Ferry, enjoyable as it might be, would add on at least a half an hour of `dead time' than just taking it one way and using the R in Brooklyn (though you would have to double back to get in the 95th St. station)
That's the S-53!
What is your itinerary?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Sorry, but I don't want to give it away and have somebody do what i worked hard for about 2 months
>>>Sorry, but I don't want to give it away and have somebody do what i worked hard for about 2
months <<<
For Pete's sake, is there prize money involved? Jeez...
03/04/2000
BEWARE ! of construction projects with bus replacements etc. That may be hard with owl work projects at one time or another.
Bill Newkirk
I just got back from today's Canarsie Line Fieldtrip, organized by heypaul. There were six of us - myself, heypaul, Doug AKA BMTman, wsteil, subwaysurf and High St./Brooklyn Bridge. (Too bad Salaamallah coudn't make it).
We boarded a train of R-40 Slants at 14th St. and 8th Ave. and road the entire line (with a stop at New Lots Ave. for some photos of the former connection with the Bay Ridge line) to Rockaway Parkway, where we exited and walked several blocks to explore remants of the old steam/trolley ROW that went to Canarsie.
On our way back, we got off at Broadway Junction (noting the new overhead passageway) and caught a C train to Franklin Ave., where we transferred to the Shuttle to Prospect Park. Then we took the D a couple of stops to Atlantic Ave. where we took a look at August Belmont's former connection of the LIRR with the IRT. I bailed out here to take the LIRR back home. At that point the remaining 3 in our party were headed towards Bush Terminal to check out the reports of LIRR diesel engines in the yards.
It was an enjoyable afternoon of railfanning.
By the way, heypaul is much more subdued in person than he is behind the keyboard :-)
>>>where we exited and walked several blocks to explore remants of the old steam/trolley ROW that went
to Canarsie. <<<
Funny thing is I was there a week ago to photograph the remnants of that trolley.
Clues are:
Trolley poles and T-poles on Glenwood Road at odd angles. They once aligned with the trolley ROW.
A NO DUMPING sign with the "NYCTA", the MTA predecessor.
ROW continues as far as Flatlands Avenue, Thereafter, it's pretty much built over further south.
I didn't know about this trip. As it was, I was infiltrating an abandoned hospital in Staten Island.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Did you take note of the Log Cabin at Flatlands and 92nd?
>>>Did you take note of the Log Cabin<<<
I have heard of it, but forgot about it. Is it affiliated with the old trolley? If so, did you get a picture of it?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hi, Kevin.
No, the log cabin is not affiliated with the old Canarsie Line. Apparently, it was built by a local businessman many moons ago as a lunchenette/restaurant.
It is currently owned by Fillmore Realty Corp. and is used as one of their offices. Heypaul and I went inside the building and one of the workers there knew of the structure's history and even pointed us to a picture on a wall depicting the old lunchenette configuration.
BTW, the trip was a sponteneous one and we never really planned to venture out past fare control at Rockaway Pkwy. Since we all had Fun-Passes -- and the weather was GREAT -- as a group, we decided to walk and take a look at the old ROW and the original Main Street of Canarsie during the heyday of the B&RB RR, Conklin Ave. Some interesting sites there. I'm sure we'll do it again, probably in even warmer weather.
A NOTE TO MY FELLOW SUBTALKERS: I was not able to post most of this weekend due to my computer getting a long-overdue upgrade. I will not be posting as frequently until about Wednesday or Thursday. (So, don't panic if I don't answer to things that might be posted for me looking for a response).
PS: my e-mails will go unanswered until my computer is returned. I can post from work but in-and-outgoing mail is a no-no.
Doug aka BMTman
Let's have more of these spur-of-the-moment fieldtrips. If my schedule allows it, I'd love to join one.
I'd be game for one after this Sunday's LIRR Rockaway Branch trip, weather permitting.
--Mark
Remember, if you're touring this ROW, bring a large knife to chop your way through the trees and weeds, a baseball bat to beat off the rats, and some sort of firearm in case the homeless who inhabit the Atlantic Ave. station don't take too kindly to your presence.
I wonder if the wooden shack built on the 101st. Ave overpass is still there. It was used by the FBI to spy on Gotti's Bergen hunt & fish club, and it was vandalized several times.
Certainly, more of these will come down the pike so long as the demand is there and weather permits.
BTW, one of these trips I'd like to have terminate (or take a lunch break) at a famous eatery. For instance, if we have the time and a large grouping we could end the day riding the D or N train to DeKalb and dining at Juniors (now there's a place with alot of Brooklyn history!)
Maybe a list could be created that features famous and/or popular eateries that are near major subway lines?
Doug aka BMTman
Here's some:
RestaurantStationLinePeter Luger'sMarcy AvJ,Z,MKatz' Deli 2nd Av F Nathan'sStillwell AvN,B,F,QJeremy's Ale HouseFulton/Nassau or Bklyn Brtoo many to mentionChinatown (various)Canal StreetBMT (most) & IRT LexLittle Italy""Restaurant Row50th StreetA,E,CSheepshead Bay (various seafood)Sheepshead Bay D,QJahn'sSomeone helpJ,ZEquestrisAqueductA,H?
Jahn's is located in Richmond Hill.
What station? Not that I'm going to do that again! Tables are very confusing to do. Especially with just WebTV and no computer. That post took me about a half hour!!!
The closest station is 121st. St.
RestaurantStationLinePeter Luger'sMarcy AvJ,Z,MKatz' Deli 2nd Av F Nathan'sStillwell AvN,B,F,QJeremy's Ale HouseFulton/Nassau or Bklyn Brtoo many to mentionChinatown (various)Canal StreetBMT (most) & IRT LexLittle Italy""Restaurant Row50th StreetA,E,CSheepshead Bay (various seafood)Sheepshead Bay D,QJahn's121st StreetJ,ZEquestrisAqueductA,H?
That took me about 30 seconds, using no tools not at a WebTVer's disposal.
[I didn't know about this trip. As it was, I was infiltrating an abandoned hospital in Staten Island.]
Now that sounds cool! Will you be putting any pictures on forgotten-ny?
>>>Now that sounds cool! Will you be putting any pictures on forgotten-ny? <<<
You betcha. I was on a trip with a couple of buffs affiliated with the www.darkpassage.com site, which invades abandoned buildings; I recommend teh site. Not as large as Forgotten or nycsubway.org, but absorbing as is.
03/04/2000
Kevin Walsh,
I tried accessing www.darkpassage.com but couldn't. Is this URL correct ?
Bill Newkirk
Yes. This URL just worked for me:
http://www.darkpassage.com/
The 'darkpassage' site stalls, it must be having problems right now. Were you exploring the old Seaview Hospital?
>>>Were you exploring the old
Seaview Hospital? <<<
True.
thanks bob for your kind words--- as far as my part in the trip, i only served as middleman between salaam and the rest of us--- the credit for success of the trip's planning goes to doug--- his tour of canarsie and the l line was not planned by me--- the excellence of his presentation makes me able to overlook the fact that he was 15 minutes late--- but he explained that he had let a couple of l trains go by, hoping that he would run into the r110
when we got off at new lots ave to look around, i didn't say anything to anybody--- but i could have sworn that i heard the sounds of chainsaws somewhere off to the east on the lirr tracks
i was really astounded by the real estate office that was built out of logs--- i went in with doug, and the interior was really outstanding--- it is the fillmore real estate office--- unfortunately they did not have any other log cabins currently listed...
after bob, andee, and harry left, we headed to 36th and 4th ave, where a limousine met us to take us to the railroad yards--- it was driven by a liberal, so i guess we were driven by a limousine liberal--- on the way over to the yard we stopped at the 39th street bus storage yards and doug noticed 3 subway cars parked in the back of the yard--- the more we looked at them, the stranger it seemed--- as best as we can figure, they were 3 q cars in rather sad shape--- were these cars mentioned recently on subtalk?--- they came as a complete and utter surprise--- we went around the fence and would have tried to get a better look if not for some wild swine who were swooning in a big puddle
we went by the south brooklyn yards ( or whatever the name of the operation is ) and doug took some pictures of the remaining lirr diesel--- one of the
people there said it was going back to gm---
we returned to 36th st to head to coney island, where i promised to show doug and bill my home in the former funhouse--- one more final treat awaited us--- b train service was routed over the n and ran non stop from 59th st to stillwell--- i really enjoy the wrong railing express run--- unfortunately we were in an r68, and could not see out the front
it was really a great day--- it was great to meet andee, harry, bill, and meet bob again--- doug again provided a highly informative and interesting day---
and i was my normal foul mouthed vicious self....
Sounds like a GREAT Field Trip, and just a small part of how this site gives me so much pleasure ..... Thanks Dave
A funny side bar ... any Field Trip you do in the company of our BMT friend seems to always end up on the Franklin Shuttle ... does he have a thing for the elephant dun on that line of what ?
Mr t
you're not kidding about ending up on the franklin shuttle--- it was a spontaneous event and that was the joy of it--- i honestly don't know how we ended up on the shuttle--- we had gotten off at broadway junction--- we took a c--- i just looked on the map--- this goes to show how stupid i am--- i was trying to figure how we got onto the irt to transfer to the shuttle--- uh-- the connection to the shuttle at franklin is with the 8th ave subway--- anyway, we ended up on the shuttle--- i was looking at buildings on the ride to prospect park and noticed some old lettering on a building indicating heinz--- i must take another look at that, as i am wondering if there was a heinz factory there or it was just an ad for heinz foods---
I am not too far from the NL station and have used it a couple of times. Where is this old connection located? Ill probably check it out tomorrow........
3TM
Hey Bob, sorry I have taken so long to respond but I had a great time also
And your right heypaul is a great guy
subway surf agreed that heypaul is a great guy
i agree--- we are privileged to have him amongst us
flood the daily news with demands to run the article featuring heypaul....
A young woman of my acquaintance likes to explore old ruins and abandoned tunnels, sort of what I do with Forgotten NY, but rather more daring. A whiile ago, she and some friends were exploring the tunnels deep under Grand Central Terminal. Here's part of her account of what she found, from her website, www.darkpassage.com:
A rail worker had emerged on a walkway next to us and asked what we were doing there. No great excuse immediately came to mind. We were looking for a pedestrian tunnel leading to the street, we answered. The worker came down to join us on the track. He was in his early fifties, a bit severe at first, but soon becoming friendlier. There were no such tunnels anymore, he said; they had all been closed off. But there was a staircase on our right leading to the street, which he suggested we take. He himself guided us up one level to the upper trains, bringing us to the middle of the easternmost track next to a small service area where another staircase ascended.
What we were doing was extremely dangerous, he said. Even people who had worked there for 20, 30 years sometimes ended up getting killed by the trains. In fact, right behind us (we craned our necks) a friend of his had gotten sliced in half. There were other forms of death as well: just ahead of us, for example, they had found an Irish girl who had hanged herself (though he had his theories on whether it was really a suicide). More delightfully morbid accounts followed from his long career in the tunnels. The large "Stay Alert" sign nearby took on new significance. We wanted to keep him talking and not be sent up the stairs, though he turned down our request to take us around. He mentioned the multitude of closed-off tunnels and that they were thinking of re-opening one from Grand Central to Penn Station. He mentioned the homeless, who had mostly disappeared, and the large rats.
And how many levels were there, we wanted to know. Two or seven? "Fifteen," he said.
------------------------------------
First, is that guy right about there being fifteen levels beneath Grand Central, and second, is he right about there being an abandoned trackway connecting GCT and Penn?
www.forgotten-ny.com
There is not an abandoned trackway connecting the two stations. The stations were constructed by bitter rivals who went out of their way to avoid interchanging freight directly in certain locales.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
there are 2 full levels of tracks in GCT. There is another level below the lower level, but it's just a passageway, formerly for baggage, now it's part of the northern exits.
-Hank
Yeah, there are 2 levels, 48 tracks and 4 ex-interlocking towers, some with 400 levers. I'd tell your friend that exploring Grand Central might not be the best idea. Aside from the electric trains that move along w/o much noise there is also the omnipresent 3rd rail that is charged with 600 volts of bone frying direct current.
Do employees access the interlocking towers from the main level or do they have to enter through some hidden employee only entrence. How many towers are there?
Do the 48 tracks include the yard tracks? I remember seeing that there are small offices under the platform of the middle number tracks on the upper level. Also there is a stair case on the upper level with several employees adsending. Anyone know where they lead?
And anyone know the track layout, where they split, where the interlockings are and where the levels decend?
>>>Do the 48 tracks include the yard tracks? I remember seeing that there are small offices under the
platform of the middle number tracks on the upper level. Also there is a stair case on the upper level with
several employees adsending. Anyone know where they lead? <<<<
They (the www.darkpassage.com folks) had been in search of Track 61, which apparently leads to a secret door to the Waldorf Astoria; FDR had used the door as president. They did find that door; Track 61 is not in revenue service.
www.forgotten-ny.com
it's strange--- on the l line trip today, i was talking with bill about this same topic--- i thought there were six or so levels below the suburban level-- with storage yards and repair shops--- on the first era sponsored trip to grand central, i thought that we did go to some of the lower levels--- when i came home tonight and checked william middleton's book on grand central station, it seems that someone removed all mention of any lower levels--- anyone have any info on this?
>>>>I'd tell your
friend that exploring Grand Central might not be the best idea. Aside from the electric trains that move
along w/o much noise there is also the omnipresent 3rd rail that is charged with 600 volts of bone frying
direct current. <<<
I have. These folks do things I don't endorse. I've gone into real tough neighborhoods in search of Forgotten items, but playing with electricity ain't one of them. Another guy I know, Frank Jump (www.frankjump.com) has been known to climb up on elevated train catwalks in search of the perfect picture. I'll go only so far.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[First, is that guy right about there being fifteen levels beneath Grand Central, and second, is he right about there being an abandoned trackway connecting GCT and Penn?]
No, and no.
Sounds suspicsiously like an excerpt from "The Mole People", which has been debunked pretty well on Brennen's site.
O the Beauty and the Beast TV show.
I was just getting ready to post bout something I saw yesterday. Near the indoor entrance to the Graybar buiding, there is the entrance to the new meat deli with a stairway to the lower level. Opposite this public stairway is a slightly lower room to the side, right adjacent to the deli entrance. There are two doors. one was open, and it leads to a bare brick stairway leading down six or seven flights, visible through the space between the stairs. Now these were small flights (about 10 ft high landings), so the lower level might have been two of these flights down. But it still went way below that, and the bottom was dimly lit (and a flight above that was completely dark). This must be the entrance to the subterranean passages. The landing did have these old stains like the homeless had been there before.
How many levels at GCT? It depends how you count. There are
only 2 track levels. Towers A and B are located slightly off-level
on the upper and lower track levels. They are accessed via a
stairway that is slightly north of one of the upper-level
platforms, somewhere around Tk 23 I think.
Below that are utility rooms.
I've heard that the bottom is about 120' below the
upper level tracks, i.e. at the 7th level. There are supposedly
rotary converters or MG sets down on one of the lower levels that
were left in place rather than trying to haul them out of there).
There should also be ejector (water pumping) rooms below the lowest
usable level.
There is no passageway to Penn Station although rumors were that
a tunnel was started during WW II by the Army Corps for military
reasons, but not completed. There are probably underground
penumatic mail tubes running to Penn Sta or the GPO across the
street.
The under-running 3rd rail presents far less of an electrocution
hazard than the over-running type of the subway and LIRR, but
still safety is the word. The greater danger, by far, is the
large number of partitions and other visual barriers around
switches. I've seen trains seemingly come out of nowhere down
there.
great--- so there are levels beyond the suburban level--- i have a sense there must be an elevator that goes down to these levels--- although i suppose the heavy equipment that you say is down there might have gone in when the terminal was built---
originally i was thinking of contacting john tauranac, the author and mta consultant, because i have been on a couple of tours of the station that he gave
perhaps, i should take a ride into the city this morning and see if i some of the metro-north people might have information about the lower levels
jeff thanks for the information
Way back in June & July of 1998 there was quite a long discussion about Grand Central. I saved copies of several of the posts:
"The elevators make four stops, identified by letters ... the four stops are: the balcony overlooking the main concourse (top of escalators); the main concourse; the (regular) lower level; and the third level. Getting off the elevator at the third level are, I think, three tracks on your left ..." I think this is the level that Jeff H. was talking about.
Another SubTalker said, "... GCS has 109 tracks (originally 123). However in the map of the station within the guide shows 30 tracks on the upper level (track 11 to 42) and 17 on the lower level (track 101 to 117). This adds to 47 tracks ...."
Another SubTalker said "... track 118 to 125 is the Madison Ave Yard ..." which we now know will service the LIRR when it comes to GCS.
That makes 55 ... if we add #61 identified in this thread, and the runaround track that, which, IIRC, goes between the levels it makes 57.
Mr t__:^)
Hey, if I remember my Superman movies, didn't Lex Luthor live somewhere under GCT? When that detective was poking around he used that penumatic door to push him in front of a New Haven FL-9 that was rounding the loop track.
>>>Hey, if I remember my Superman movies, didn't Lex Luthor live somewhere under GCT? When that
detective was poking around he used that penumatic door to push him in front of a New Haven FL-9
that was rounding the loop track. <<<<
It's likely Luthor's lair was inspired by the real-life door down there that connects to the Waldorf.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin: There are several levels depending on how you view then. Let us take the main floor at Grand Central Concourse upper level as the first one. Remember that if you enter through Lexington Avenue it is a level walk, but if you enter from Vanderbilt Avenue you must walk down a staircase to reach the concourse. The upper level tracks are actually about a half level lower since there are decending ramps to all of them and one platform,tracks 11 and 13, must be reached by a staircase even though they are on the upper level. The next level is the "lower level concourse" which is a full level above the lower level trackways. Below the lower level trackways where the trucking subways at 43 St and 45 St. By this I refer to the old baggage trucks. The 43 Street one is still in use but the 45 St one has been converted to a pedestrian walkway. The 43 Street trucking subway connected into the lod power plants the floors of which where one level down and the coal pits for these had their floors down another level. To simplyfy I might put it this way:
Upper Level Concourse and Trackways "LEVEL U"
Lower Level Concourse "LEVEL L"
Lower Level Trackways "LEVEL P"
Trucking Subways
Floor of Power Plant
Floor of Coal Pit.
Larry,RedbirdR33
larry can you describe the power plant--- what does it produce power for? is it still producing power?
how large of an area is it? what was the coal pit for? thanks paul
Paul: I'm not sure if the power plant is still in service. Basically it was a coal fired plant that produced steam heat for Grand Central and many of the surrounding buildings. There were huge steam pipes running through the 43 Street Subway. Apparently coal was delivered from the street and dropped into the pits by means of chutes. The plant may have been converted to oil in later years. I'll make a few inquires and get back to you with more current information.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There are two elevators on each side of the ramp from the Oyster Bar to the Shuttle Passage. According to the sign, there are offices. Are they up or down, I don't see any outside windows, so it's a windowless tower. Is there one on the other side?
Up. There are rooms above the level of the main concourse, in a tower at each cornerof the concourse. The first level of each tower is at the balcony level, but they extend further upward. If you sit in the bar on the West balcony, you can see through the windows at the East end of the concourse the shadows of people crossing between the Northeast Tower and the Southeast Tower on a catwalk.
Found while surfing:
------------------------------------
There used to be, until about a year or two ago, a
dark & scary tunnel from 35th to about 40th or 42nd under 6th avenue.
It's gone? Bummer. I remember using it, many years ago.
For a long time, the Transit Authority refused to admit it existed (the story I heard was that somebody was trying to rent space in it for commercial purposes, and the TA kept saying it wasn't there). I wonder why they closed it instead of making money from it.
The TA closed this tunnel because it became know as "Rape and Pillage Central". I think that in the last year that it was open there were over 10 rapes and more than 30 robberies in it.
This tunnel (together with many others like it as well as much mezzanine areas) have been converted by the TA into office space, Transit Police stations, and storage. It's much cheaper that buying or leasing space on the surface...
-------------------------------------
Can any subtalkers verify the former existence of this pedestrian passage?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes, I can. Don't remember when it closed but it's been many years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This passage has an interesting history.
If it weren't for the fact that there were fare controls, you could have used this all weather passageway, combined with others to go from Penn Station or from the H&M at 32nd Street all the way to 44th (or is it 45th?) and 6th.
The 6th Avenue el had a station at 38th Street. When the el was to be torn down the merchants at 38th demanded a station, but the Board of Transportation refused. But to mollify them, they built the passageway, and put entrances at 38th Street on both sides of 6th Avenue. From the street, you couldn't tell that it wasn't a regular station, and that you had to walk to either 40th or 35th to actually enter the subway.
I used that passageway a number of times. It was very wide and (unlike the former passageway to Penn next to Gimbels) didn't seem very threatening.
As to when it closed, my wife worked on 38th around 1984. I once wanted to point out the station entrance to her, and it was gone! So, my guess is it closed a few years prior, or about 20 years ago.
No, it was around 1990. I was grown when i would occasionally walk through it. Perhaps they had closed off that one entrance before that.
Are there any traces of entrances to this mezzanine from the 34th or 42nd Street IND stations? If so, sounds like a job for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes, there are doors in the 40th St. exit of the 42nd St. station that lead into it. When I used to use this station to get to work I occasionally saw the doors open, the passageway area is used for storage. There's probably access at 34th St. too but I never looked.
Dinkins era thinking. Don't bother the criminals, imprison the public in places where the criminals can't get to them, or you'll be sued.
I'd like to see a full fledged pedestrian network a la Montreal. No, the weather isn't as bad, but the sidewalks are crowded, and those who walk on them have to stop for lights at streetcorners.
Now that the crime rate has come down, . . . ?
On the corner of 38th St and 6th Ave, the sidewalk on 38th St is wider at the corner than it is down the rest of the street. On 38th St at the corner, you can see a staircase leading to this mezzanine through a grating. I do not remember if this grating had a locked gate or if it was solid, but I *think* it's a locked gate. The shape of the sidewalk clearly deliniates this area as a subway entrance. I believe this entrance was built as a "replacement" for the 6th Ave El which had a station in that area, and people were upset that they'd lose the station when the EL came down.
--Mark
[Can any subtalkers verify the former existence of this pedestrian passage?]
I saw it a couple years ago. I was in the 42nd Street station at the south end, and some workmen apparently had left the door open that normally closes off the passageway. I got a good look into it, although there were too many people around for me to risk actually entering it. It was fairly well-lit and clean, with various stuff stored along the walls. In short, nothing really exciting.
I saw it too when some workers had it open. It was about the same width as the mezanine of the 42nd St. Station, and had signs in the tile with arows pointing to "42nd (or maby it was 40th) St" and "38(?)th St.".
subfan
When I was a messenger, I used this tunnel almost everyday till I left NYC for life in the military(1990)......this tunnel had an entrance at 38th st and always was chock full of action
[When I was a messenger, I used this tunnel almost everyday till I left NYC for life in the military(1990)......this tunnel had an entrance at 38th st and always was chock full of action]
A violent crime (a rape, IIRC) that occurred in the passageway convinced the Transit Authority to close it off, presumably because they were worried about liability.
The clincher was that they were found liable in that case, as they had left some construction items (boards, etc.) in the passageway, leaving a perfect location for the crime to be committed; otherwise, as it is a public area, there is a legal doctrine whose name escapes me just now (any of the lawyers here want to help?) that would have protected them from legal responsibility.
subfan
You are correct, providing that my memory serves me correctly.
About this time the TA also closed off nearly all the lightly-used entrances and corridors in the system, and vigorously removed visible traces of them. Seemingly that policy remains in effect. Unused el station mezzanines that remained standing for decades following disuse have been removed in the past decade or so.
Among my favorites that were removed ca. 1990 or so were the underpasses (like on the RR at 23rd Street) and some sealed-up entrances to the GG at Court Sq.
There are a number of mezzanines still on the Bway el such as at Gates Av.
Right, COnrad. They are still closing entrances-- the latest closure is the Grand Street Exit at Metropolitan/Grand on the G line. The entire Southern half of the mezzanine has been closed. New wall tile has gone up, including new white on black directional sings and the onlyt entrance is the Metropolitan Ave exit (transfer to the L). Several stairways remain on each plat but they are behind floor to ceiling gated grills and presumably used for police/service access. The area where the Police was (and still is) is now behind twin doors and is used for storage, a Police Task Force and various facillity rooms for employees. Most IND stations had full length mezzanines. most of them now two partial mezzanines. A careful examination of platforms, tiles and ceilings will reveal clues as to where the exits were.. While some are still open, I expect further mezzanine reductions on the IND= especailly on some of the lesser used stations.
Will all of these closings and stair removals effect air temperature and quality?
If a person wanted to remove a ragweed shrub, an environmental study would have to be done.
The IND was designed before AC, Where and how does the excess heat get out?
many stations have vent chambers to remove hot/stale air. Metropolitan on the G is one such station.
True , but i do believe, the cubic space of the mezzanines and the stair wells were factored in when the original air exchange was planned . I just try to go with my own comfort level when I find a warmer that usual area and notice the shruken environs(is that spelled right?)and think "more heat ,less air Hummmmmmmmm.
avid
ps Air is fluid, but temperatures can bunch up ie Grand Central platforms in August.
Let's take the G Line. AT Fulton, Broadway and Now Metropolitan there have been mezzanine reductions. The stations still have vent chambers-even on sections ewhere the mezz is now closed.
At Metropolitan the layout is interesting: From the mezz near the stairways to the G plat is a small short door which leads to a utility chase(The door is mostly open and I did not go in!) Inside the door is a catwalk. Above the catwalk is the street rgating and below is the ceiling of the G plat. Try standing under the vent chambers on a rainy day (or windy day) you'll feel it!
03/04/2000
As reported here a day or two eralier, some LIRR GP-38's were being marshalled around the NY Cross Harbor yard at 1st Ave in Brooklyn. I was there today and saw only one left, GP-38-2 #269.
Also by the shop building was Alco's #25 coupled up with #21 nose to nose. #21 has had the windows boarded up and seemed out of service. Anyone hear anything on this? Out for scrap ? Being brought out of mothballs for service ?
Drove down to the SBK yard at 39th St. and 1st Ave. The pump cars, ex-Q-types are graffittied and a sad sight.
Bill Newkirk
Reporting
Those GP38-2s are probably being ferried across the river. I believe they're heading up to the EMD plant in Canada for refurbishing.
The Q Types are still in the SBK Yard? Did someone buy them? Or are they just going to sit there because they have no value? They'll have to leave sooner or later. The worst thing that could happen is the TA might just scrap the cars themselves.
-Stef
03/04/2000
And now the R-40 Slant question of the day. If you don't answer Wayne R-40 Slant, you must be sleeping!
When the last 100 R-40 SLANT ends were delivered new, which were the only slants with air conditoning, were they delivered new with pantograph gates, or were they installed on TA property ??
Also since we're talking about R-40's. Look at any picture of a R-40 MODIFIED. I don't know if you can see this on the GOH cars. But right behind the motormans cab window, where the "M" TRANSIT logo was applied, look closely. You should see some scoring marks in the stainless steel possibly eight of them, They seem to be in a circular pattern as if there may have been a large "TA" emblem there first. Was this true? The other 300 R-40's (slants) had the old "TA" emblem, but when the modifieds came in, it seem the MTA was formed. It looks like holes were drilled and then patched, and some grinding to smooth the patches over. Check your old photos, you'll see what I mean.
Bill Newkirk
The Slant R40 with air-conditioning, AS DELIVERED NEW were #4450-4549, current numbers #4350-4449. No Slant R40 had pantograph gates when delivered new, just the two short 90-degree railings. I am not sure whether the pantograph gates were installed on NYCT property, I would have to guess YES, because I didn't see any exodus of Slant R40 around 1971, which is when the gates began appearing, out of safety concerns and complaints about locked "A" end doors.
I did notice the "M" logo on the R40M and the R42. Not sure about the spot-weld marks. Next time I see an R40M up close, I will look for that pattern of repair.
The R40M's original numbers were #4250-4349. They now are #4450-4549,
which is the same as the original A/C Slants. Some of the R40M had odd "brake test" numbers, like AS19, CB22, etc. when first delivered.
These were those in the #4300 series, and got their first permanent numbers in 1970, which actually wound up being the #4500 series, because they juggled all the numbers around that year.
Wayne
03/04/2000
Wayne,
This may have been discussed here before, but since I don't remember, why that renumbering fiasco with the slants and modifieds ? Was there another class car that had a renumbering like the R-40's ?
Bill Newkirk
I'm really NOT sure why they numbered the cars the way they did - perhaps it had to do with the way the cars arrived - R40Ms arriving before the last of the R40 A/C slants - and the brake test numbers thrown in for good measure.
I don't recall such reneumeration with any other car classes on such a scale EXCEPT during the GOH of the R44 and R46.
Yes, the R40 cars DID have the "TA" logos when new - I was referring to the R40Ms and R42s.
Wayne
You should be careful with the words you make up. Renumeration IS a word, it just doesn't mean what you imply it does.
Are you sure you don't mean "remuneration"? Or could you tell us what "renumeration" means?
Oh yes, that's what I meant. Silly pig that I am. Renumeration means nothing, so it's free for the amateur lexicographer.
OK tell me what you think "MULGE" is.
(Hint: Piggies LOVE to play in it/with it)
BTW - that WAS a typo, trust me.
Wayne (I have a few other made-up words up my sleeve as well)
My finger is on the rim shot button.-)
OK fire away.
As a little kid I learned to speak early. Real early - like at 10 months old I was attempting speech. I couldn't pronounce words correctly so sometimes I made up my own words for things. One such word was "dicketydacker" - which was my term for the LIRR MP-70 bilevels.
Wayne
I think we all did that to an extent at that age. My folks say I had my own terms for certain colors. My niece had her own terms for balloons (bayai) and fountain (fafia - rhymes with Mafia). One of the first things she could say very well was bow-wow. My nephew kept saying, "adido" when my sister and her clan visited us in December; my mother thinks he was trying to say, "atiduok", which in Lithuanian means "give it back".
At least I knew what a subway train was when I rode on one for the first time in 1965.
The first R-40 slants DID have the old blue & red "TA" logo before the "M Transit" logo was applied.
--Mark
03/04/2000
Wayne,
On that question of renumbering, that doesn't include the R-44's and 46's of GOH fame.
Bill Newkirk
For those people who don't like off topic conversation on SubTalk, I've created a group for those who do! I hope that next time when a thread veers off topic, instead of changing the title, move it to Off SubTalk!
Subscribe to Off SubTalk
Enter your e-mail address:
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Pigs, what a great idea, worthy of a noble American Landrace such as yourself.
What about filling in your application? We now have TWO! Political Polls!
i just signed up at off subtalk--- do not get your hopes up--- i am not planning on going off subtalk myself--- but i am exploring the possibility of having a post on subtalk that mentions rudy, hillary, limousine liberals, high taxation, and niagara falls automatically transferred to off subtalk--- although i don't feel that this is fair to off subtalk, since it was conceived with a much nobler purpose in mind
Oh, this is just what I need, another e-mail list. It'll go right along with Conrail-Talk, Reading-Talk, PRR-Talk, Railway Signals, Interlocking Towers, Delaware and Husson, Lehigh Valley RR, New Englande Rails and The Signalbox Blower.
LOL!!!!!
You can block e-mail and read it on the web if you are intersted.
From now on, every person who posts in a political thread will be invited.
Spare us the spam - last I looked it's not kosher :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He("Pigs") likes the fact that he has nothing to fear from those of us who observe kashruth furthermore those who do not eat pork MAY be spared GREAT SUFFERING in the PIGVOLUTION
During the G.O. of the C line, there were some wierd sighting, the wierdest of them all had to be the R38s on the "B" line. Here are two photos from this special time in the history of the R38s!!!!
Will will probably never see this again (Hope we do though it was fun!).
Enjoy
Trevor Logan
03/04/2000
Sort of reminds me of those hardscrabble days the R-38's ruled the (B), with blue doors, no air conditioning, grafitti and noisy as hell! GOH makes a difference.
Bill Newkirk
Sorry, R-38s never had blue doors!
Not on the outside, but on the inside, the doors originally had the same light blue tint as the R-32s. The R-38s also had a thin blue stripe at the belt rail which went all the way around the car.
Yeah...I've never seen a digital letter "B" on a head car. I've only seen A, C, R and N...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Don't forget E & G! Well the "G" had the R32s for a minute!
The "G" had the R-38s before the overhaul with the curtain signs!
Trevor
I've also seen R32s post-GOH on the B, Q and F lines a few times. I don't know why they might have been assigned there for such a short time.
I saw an R-32 end sign, and saw the following:
0987654321ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ (space)
I guess that's the test pattern!
It can only hold 1 characher. That makes NO sense whatsoever!
He means that it went through a test pattern where in each character was shown at once. not in one shot!
Trevor
Hmmm. The route sign doesn't make any reference to an IND branch the way the A and E signs do. It's nice to see the old Southern Division title, though. Of course, a "Wash. Hts.-6 Ave.-West End" sign wouldn't be correct nowadays anyway.
R38s also ran on the E
If the subway map were wiped clean, and the subway system had to be started from scratch...
...would there be lines built in the same places as now? It's fairly obvious there wouldn't be els, and every line would be a subway that may occasionally rise to grade.
But would lower-income neighborhoods be assured of mass transit? Would there be subways down Broadway, Wyckoff Avenue, Pitkin Avenue and Fulton Street in Brooklyn; Westchester Avenue in the Bronx; Liberty Avenue in Queens?
Or would mass transit, should it be constructed from scratch in 2000, be restricted to the richer areas in Manhattan, the western and southern areas of Brooklyn, and northern Queens? I'd hope not, but the poorer the neighborhood these days, the less likely it is to share in the apparent economic boom.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Or would mass transit, should it be constructed from scratch in 2000, be restricted to the richer areas in Manhattan, the western and southern areas of Brooklyn, and northern Queens? I'd hope not, but the poorer the neighborhood these days, the less likely it is to share in the apparent economic boom.]
On the other hand, the richer 'hoods are likely to have a lot more NIMBY opposition to subway construction. Poorer neighborhoods probably wouldn't object as much and therefore might end up with more lines.
the poorer areas are the ones that need it more, look at the busiest lines mosyt come from the poorer area, where they is no other affordable way of communting
In addition to NIMBY, two other acronyms come into play:
BANANA... Build Abslutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody
LULU... Locally Undesirable Land Use
Any proposed project (be it a subway line, bus depot, group home, etc.) faces these hurdles as a matter of course. That's just the way of the world.
proposal #1 sewge treatment plant. NIMBY
proposal #2 oil refinery. NIMBY
proposal #3 detention center for criminaly insane ,violent ,alian ,
child molesters. NIMBY
proposal #4 new location for Center for Desease Control. NIMBY
proposal #5 new subway route. sounds better!
A really interesting question, Kevin.
Of course, it's unanswerable (chicken or egg stype argument), because New York City would not exist in its current configuration but for the rapid transit lines.
However, to give a partial answer: it depends who had the power to build the lines and what reasoning they apply.
On Long Island the original thinking was to electrify the Port Jefferson and Montauk branches (at least as far as Patchogue) "because that's where the ridership was."
Instead they put both projects aside and electrified the lightly used (one train every two hours) Ronkonkoma Line instead. And the reasoning was that the line, being centrally located, was accessible to larger numbers of potential riders, and that the upgrading of the line would provide an economic boost to the working-class heavily minority communities of Wyandanch, Brentwood and Central Islip.
You know what? They were right. They developed huge ridership and provided benefits to the communities.
[On Long Island the original thinking was to electrify the Port Jefferson and Montauk branches (at least as far as Patchogue)
"because that's where the ridership was."
Instead they put both projects aside and electrified the lightly used (one train every two hours) Ronkonkoma Line instead. And the reasoning was that the line, being centrally located, was accessible to larger numbers of potential riders, and that the upgrading of the line would provide an economic boost to the working-class heavily minority communities of Wyandanch, Brentwood and Central Islip.
You know what? They were right. They developed huge ridership and provided benefits to the communities.]
It should be pointed out that the Ronkonkoma electrification had unwanted side effects. Instead of leading to a roughly equal distribution of ridership among the Port Jefferson, Montauk and Ronkonkoma lines, electrification resulted in the first two operating well below capacity while Ronkonkoma is grossly overcrowded. Small parking lots at Montauk-line stations have many empty spaces even in the middle of the day, while Ronkonkoma's huge parking areas - the main lot looks like something at a major shopping mall - are completely filled soon after 7:00 a.m. What the LIRR management never counted on is the fact that many riders refuse to change trains. They'll put up with Ronkonkoma's hideous conditions just so they don't have to change. As far as I can tell, the advent of dual-mode service hasn't changed things significantly on the Montauk line (I don't know about Port Jefferson). People are just too attached to Ronkonkoma, God only knows why.
As far as the development of Central Islip, Brentwood and Wyandanch is concerned, yes there may have been some progress, but I question whether there's been any proof that electrification has been responsible.
I wonder when the LIRR's gonna electrify to port Jeff? Given the high traffic there, and the potential to relieve some of the Ronkonkoma's crowding, it might make sense.
Considering that in the days before the main line was electrified all the trains went either to Port Jeff or Ronkonkoma. Huntington was just a regular station, not a terminal. Maybe it would be easier to replace alot of the M-1 and M-3 trains with dual modes and have all trains on that line go to Port Jeff rather than Huntington.
The thing about the subway is that it was the end of an evolutionary process under conditions that do not now exist. Trolleys allowed density, which was better served by Els, which allowed more density, which was better served by the subway. Subways built since WWII have been enormously costly and subsidized. LA County, one of the densest in the country, has not been able support a subway.
Perhaps a better question is, if you knew what we know today about the city, could go back in time and be a "subway czar" from 1900 to 1950, and would have enough money to build the same number of track miles, how would you arrange the subway?
In my case, beginning in Midtown, you'd have four-track subway lines on Park and 8th avenues, and two track lines on 10th and 2nd Avenue, along with crosstown lines on 14th Street, 42nd Street, 59th Street, and 125th Street from river to river. On 6th Avenue, you'd have a six track line -- four express tracks -- running all the way up through the park and out the other side.
Outer-borough trains would be evenly spaced. Locals would run in "inner" areas and then turn around before the end of the line, as on the Queens Blvd line. Expresses would run local past the end of the local tracks, and would include a series of large park-n-ride garages, with a big one at the end of the line. The expresses extensions would be built before the onset of devevelopment, and would be up on embankments in their own ROWs a la the Brighton.
All subways would go through to Manhattan, but a series of light rail lines -- at grade but in their own ROW -- would allow travel around the boroughs.
MetroNorth, the LIRR, and NJT would all be on the same power system. with one set of tracks running through from east to west for the LIRR and NJT, another running through from north to south, onto Downtown Brooklyn and back to Jamaica, for NJT and MetroNorth, with a big station in the middle of midtown where the two sets cross.
And the NJT (ex-Erie) Main would be electrified up to at least Suffern...or maybe Harriman...or even Port...[too bad the Erie was always broke.....with a real, properly financed RR, that actually might have happened...]
I was wondering how the subways trains deal with gapping out. Now I know that the gaps are short enough so at least some cars still have power, but I was wondering if there was any system so that none of the cars will loose power. As you know as the subway train trundles along the lights are flashing etc. Can't they have a central power cable running the legnth of the train. All 3rd rail shore would feed into it, and then the motors would feed off the connected power supply. So as long as one shoe had power, the whole train would have power and then no more flashing lights or power drop off's. Or am I wrong and is it set up this way.
Back in the days of the HiVs, this was the case. There was a trainline trolley that prevented any car from being without 600 volts as long as any had it. However, the cons of this system outweighed the pros. Today, most 3rd rail main-line gaps are less than one car length. Even if one car gets gapped the others will still have it so as long as the lead car has descent batteries, the train will still take power. For short trains such as collectors, there are 3rd rail jumpers aboard. In the case of a revenue train being gapped, the crew holds one end of the jumper on the 3rd rail while the other end is held on any contact shoe. The train will then move until it picks up a 3rd rail.
Wouldn't an arrangement such as the Hi-V blow the fuses as a 10-car train draws current from just a single shoe?
-Hank
Only if the fuse were not heavy enough. However, to use a fuse of that capacity for the express purpose of powering a train on a single contact shoe would be one of the cons i mentioned. There is no real protection under normal operation.
On the streetcar side of the world, Baltimore's 5800 class semi's had bus jumpers to reduce the number of trolley poles up on trains. In the recent modern era, Shaker Rapid (Cleveland) used bus jumpers on PCC cars, again to reduce poles on trains. Shaker ran up to 5 cars in a train (Racetrack specials), usual max was 4 cars. 4 car trains ran with poles up on the 2nd and 4th car; 3 cars used first & third; two car trains ran with second car's pole only.
I think that one of the arguments AGAINST bus jumpers on the NYC subway was the need to be able to isolate sections of third rail. In places where the train goes from one power "zone" to another, there is a gap about one carlength in the third rail. Thus, if a zone is powered off (for example, due to a fire or someone walking on the tracks), it wouldn't get power through a train which happened to be parked with one car bridging the "zones". Bus jumpers between cars would defeat this, and would make isolating a zone more difficult (but not impossible, it's done elsewhere).
It's interesting to note that the Triplexes only had 3rd rail shoes on the two center trucks (the ones under the drum connectors), just so that they wouldn't bridge zones. I'm not sure how they worked it with the longer Multisection cars -- perhaps from a power point of view they were two separate units?
-- Ed Sachs
That was recently a big issue here in Philly.
The old Almond Joys had no "jumpers" - each car was power-isolated.
In designing the M-4s, AdTranz thought a great "feature" would be linking power systems within each married pair, so that gapping would be less of a problem.
Well, the M-4s were delivered, and SEPTA realized that this was a big problem. The new M-4s posed a huge safety risk becauise now SEPTA could not guarantee that any section of 3rd rail was turned off when it was supposed to be. SEPTA's solution was to lengthen the 3rd rail gaps along the whole line, which is exactly what they did.
Isn't there also the added 'feature' that there's a hot 600 volt connector on the coupler if you do this, and that if personnel aren't careful climbing into the car they can bump into it?
Wouldn't an arrangement such as the Hi-V blow the fuses as a 10-car train draws current from
just a single shoe?
The circuits were separated with a resistor, 10 ohm I think,
feeding the trainline control 600V supply from the main 600
line. This prevented excessive currents from flowing through
the bus jumpers. 10 ohms in series with a traction motor circuit
is practically an open circuit in terms of making the car move.
There was however the problem of bridging a section gap (as opposed
to a mere 3rd rail gap such as at a crossover) and energizing
the dead section, as noted in other posts in this thread.
10 ohms in series with your body and 600V is just about as painful
as the 600V directly.
Today, most 3rd rail main-line gaps are less than one car length. Even if one
car gets gapped the others will still have it so as long as the lead car has descent batteries, the
train will still take power.
And if not....wouldn't the battery voltage come from the B+ tl?
hahahahaha. Jeff, remember when we used to lose P-wire due to weak batteries in the head car? We'd end up having to shut off all lights including the headlights to move over gaps. For what ever reason B+1 doesn't do it, even today.
Heh, do the LIRR MUs have this neat "feature" too?
BTW - I've heard that it *is* possible to gap an overhead electric at a phase break. It must take a lot of talent (or lack of) though...
As a matter of fact, if you get into an LIRR M1 or M3 cab, yo will see a white label telling the engineer how to 'Loop the P-Wire' on a car that becomes gapped. Once again, trainline battery is a myth.
Ah, the bad old days of P-wire. Unfortunate, just as the bugs
were finally worked out, the whole system was thrown away and
replaced with that horrid Cinekluge (not nearly as bad as the
R44 Westcode fiasco though).
Yeah, if the batteries are really low and there are some shorted
cells they can pull the whole B+ bus down. There are limit resistors
connected between the trainline and B1 on the car to prevent
a dead short somewhere on the trainline from killing all the
batteries. Those resistors will also introduce a lot of voltage
drop in that situation.
At least all the static converters don't blow when running over
rusty rail unlike some cars that we know :)
As our youthful friend goes out to set and set Subway+SIRT one time riding record, It came to me "Why hasn't anyone tried to break the existing NYC Subway record?" I was thinking that with computer modeling and wireless communications this should be feasible. I was also thinking about facilitators or a ground crew that could help make a record run possible. Let us say Subtalk pitched together to break the record. While an elite team of subtalkers (preferably those who could run fast and not need to use the bathroom often) would try and attempt the record run, a support team could follow them around. The support team would provide food and water, swipe turnstyles in advance of the "riding team", provide a "human wall" as the riders relieved themselves in small containers, serve as advance scouts as per what trains are suffering delays, headways and arrival times, and lastly, if the riders are going to miss an important connection the supporters could hold the doors until the riders arrived. The support team could also serve as witnesses and fully document the escapade. Also for this record attempt the riders could get on the ferry and take SIRT so prevent the undeserving from finding a loophole into the record book. My other thought was to have a "tag-team" ride the whole system. If we couoldn't get a group to go the distance, a baton counld be passed between legs.
i am not disagreeing with jersey mike's idea to have
support teams ( especially since he will be counting
the subtalker of the year ballots )--- in fact if
pgitty and his troup of merry troubadours were to
set out on their project, i would be happy to
applaud their performances while they were riding
the system--- i would also be happy to help pigs
from royal island try his hoof at the record
books--- if it got too warm in the car for him, i
would hose him down with a seltzer bottle
however, there are some subtalkers that i would
actively seek to harass, were they to attempt to set
a record--- what would i do?
1. i would organize 20 of my cleanliless challenged
friends to follow the group around, and make it
impossible for them to ride in any subway cars
2. at key subway stop restrooms, i would have all
available stalls and urinals occupied by harassers--
3. i would gain access to the control of the
holding lights at key stations, and hold their train
in the station for a 3 or 4 hours to make a
connection
4. i would ask the police to check to see if any
member of the group had any outstanding warrant for
unsafe operation of a chain saw.
5. i would arrange with robert shaw, hector
elizondo, and martin balsam to hijack the train---
in the event the ransom of $8 billion dollars paid
in rolls of used pennies isn't paid and delivered
within 30 minutes, the members of the group would be
shot, and the hijackers would give up---
An interesting concept.
However, I object to the idea of holding train doors open in general, and especially to accommodate the marathon rider(s).
Anybody who blocks doors to keep them open (whether with an arm, a leg, or a child) is effectively saying "I, who haven't boarded the train yet, am FAR more important than the 2,000 of you slobs who were willing to wait."
Besides, the point of the marathon ride is to cover the entire system in conditions normally exerienced by the riding public - that includes actually waiting a few minutes for the next train, swiping ONE'S OWN card, and so forth.
Y'know, I'm just sitting here thinking that a lot of people complain about the linking of R62, R44/46, and R68 cars, saying that if something is wrong with one car, you lose 4 (or 5) cars at a time. But some of these same people scream 'I love the triplex!' The triplex was essentially 3 cars, and together they had only 4 trucks.
With linked cars, if you lose one short-term, there's always the possibility of a mix-and-match, as each car has all equipment (some disabled, some removed). With the articulated triplex, you had no oppurtunity to replace a car in the short-term. So how is the triplex better?
-Hank
there are a couple of ways that the triplexes were
different:
1. the triplexes never broke down--- coney island shops
had only 1 inspection track in the old days, as there was
never a need to bring a standard or triplex in for repair
work
2 a three car unit of triplexes was really just 2 cars
in length---
3. the triplexes were built first delivered in 1925, and
as a result in 2000, they benefit from the grandfather
clause: HOW DARE YOU CAST ASPERSIONS ON ANYTHING THAT OLD?
:>)
I think you hit the nail right on the head - the Triplexes just kept going and going and going with very little maintenance. They were superbly designed units which would have laughed in the face of deferred maintenance in the late 70s, had they been (and should have been) kept.
The BMT standards were no slouch, either. Even the cars in the B units kept all of their vital components, IIRC, so even if one car did have a problem, a single A car could be substituted temporarily and the unit placed back in service.
Your point is well taken. The downside for any permanently coupled units, be they held together by link bars or articulated, is availability. My criticism has centered on the statistical methods used to compute the great almighty MDBF performance measure. One would require MDBF to be multiplied by the number of cars per unit to get comparable availability measures. Thus my criticism of: 1 - coupling 5 units together; 2 - getting a two or three fold MDBF improvement; 3 - proclaiming this to be a great improvement for the riding public. The Triplexes, Multis, and the BMT experimentals were not immune from this problem. This is probably the reason that they were relatively short: 80 to 170 feet in length - depending on the model.
One department that the Triplexes excelled at was passenger carrying capacity. This had very little to do with whether or not they were articulated, attached with link bars or single units.
One interesting sidelight regarding the Triplexes. They were supposed to be used for tunnel service, when they were purchased. I've always wondered, if routing these heavyweights over the bridge did not contribute unduly to the cracking problems.
The triplex's had signs inside and out which indicated either "Via Bridge" or "Via Tunnel". Therefore, I don't think that they were conceived with the notion that they would never cross the Manhattan bridge. However, I'm sure that there was some concern.If I'm not mistaken, the weight of a triplex was between 210,000 and 223,000 Lbs. It was also the length of 3 standard IRT cars which also weigh between 210,000 to 225,000 Lbs. I think the actual problem with the triplex's going over the bridge was axle load. The axle load on a standard IRT car is (18,000 Lbs) or 33% less than that of a triplex. Despite this, the triplex's frequently crossed the manhattanbridge in the 60s.
...I don't think that they were conceived with the notion that they would never cross the Manhattan bridge...
I was referring to an article in Electric Railway Journal at the time that they were delivered.
Do you have a copy of the article or a URL where I can view it? I'd be very interested in the thinkig of that day.
I read the article 40 years ago, while I was a college student. The "for tunnel use" slant stuck in my mind because it was counter to the operating practices of the 1950's. Copies for these issues Electric Railway Journal are available at the NYPL SIBL but they are at the "Annex". This means that it takes one day to see them. Alas, the bound volumes that I read were in the stacks - ready for me to pull them out and read.
The axle load of a fully loaded Triplex was, IIRC, 40,000 pounds. This was why they couldn't run on the 1893 elevated portion of the Jamaica line above Fulton St. Of course, running them over the Manhattan Bridge didn't help matters there, either.
Well, I'm not big on arguing against semi-permanently linked cars, except to note that you cut down on operating flexibility with the longer couplings, e.g., when you make up trains into sets that are half the length of a train, you can obviously only make up full- or half-length trains.
When the TA began operating R27s on the BMT in 1960, they cut the max lengths of BMT rush hour trains by almost a full car, because the Standards were 67' and the R27s 60'. They could have run 9-car R27s, except there were no R27 singles. It wasn't until Chrystie Street and expensive station lengthenings that the Southern DIvision got longer trains back. Eastern Division still hasn't, 30+ years later.
As to the Triplexes and other articulateds, more useful space and load balancing was achieved by effectively making longer cars. A safe passageway was created between sections. Linked units have the disadvantages of single cars without only a few of the advantages of articulated ones.
[ When the TA began operating R27s on the BMT in 1960, they cut the max lengths of BMT rush hour trains by almost a full car, because the Standards were 67' and the R27s 60'. They could have run 9-car R27s, except there were no R27 singles. It wasn't until Chrystie Street and expensive station lengthenings that the Southern DIvision got longer trains back. Eastern Division still hasn't, 30+ years later. ]
The platforms on the old BMT, designed for 8-car trains of standards, were (and, in the case of the J Z M L lines, are) not long enough for 9 car trains of 60' cars. An 8-car train of standards was approx 534' long, while 9 of the newer cars are 540'. Doesn't seem like much longer, but the station designers took advantage of the fact that the doors of the standards were fairly far in from the ends of the cars, and the stations were only a bit over 500' long. The trains typically extended out beyond the ends of the stations by 10-12'.
As for R27 singles, ever heard of an R16? (They did mix and match these after Chrystie St. opened).
-- Ed Sachs
All stations along the Broadway elevated BMT (J and M lines) are 550' in length, which means 9 car trains of 60' cars was possible. However, the need never arose for longer trains.
If the platforms could accomodate a 9-car train of Standards, that would be 603'. (67' x 9 = 603'). Looks like plenty of platform. Or, were the platforms significantly shorter so the trains of Stanards would overhang? I don't remember as in my youth, we didn't do much riding on the BMT, even though we lived in Brooklyn (we were nearer the IRT on Nostrand Avenue.)
Seems to me they could have used ten-car R27/30 trains if they were only 60' long, but maybe I'm missing something.
What you're missing is that most of the platforms on what was the BMT southern division have been lengthened since the 1960s. They were, as I have said, originally designed for 8 car trains of Standards, and even for them there was some overhang at the ends of the platforms (the platforms were 20-25' shorter than the length of the train).
The platforms on the Brighton line were extended in 1964 in anticipation of operating 10 car trains after Chrystie St. opened. Extensions on the other lines came later.
-- Ed Sachs
It must have been tricky to stop on the mark!
The R-16 certainly could, and occasionally did, run in mixed consists with R-27s and R-30s, and in fact blended in fairly nicely from a stylistic standpoint. However, AFAIK they were never used to create 9-car trains. I wonder if the TA ever gave any thought to doing that on, say, the Brighton line. OTOH, this was when letter markings were being implemented on the Southern Division, and running R-16s would have defeated that purpose.
What about the 5-car multis?
Don't let the appearance of 3 cars fool you. The D types are
really 2 67' AB cars, even underfloor: Each D unit has 2
switch groups and 2 brake packages. This isn't any worse than
married pairs. The objections to the linking projects are for
the 4 car and 5 car sets, which result in a much higher penalty
for a single failure.
With the increasing reliability of the subway fleet, the problems of taking multiple cars out of service if only one breaks down is a moot question. However, if cars were configured this way 20 years ago, then half the fleet would probably be unavailable on any given day.
Which is why the R62/68 were ordered as single cars, and now are being linked.
-Hank
Which is why the R62/68 were ordered as single cars, and now are being linked.
If you mean to deliberately prolong the car shortage problem, then I agree.
You're assuming that each unit in a 4 car set would have the same mechanical performance that a single car would. Remember that 4 car units share certain components, whereas single units have everything they need on one car. More parts, more things to go wrong. So yes, when something goes wrong on a 4 car set, it would require all 4 cars to be taken out of service. But the linking means that there are fewer chances of something going wrong on each individual set.
No, I mean because in the 80s the MDBF were so horrible, car availability was extremely low. By ordering single cars, they were able to increase availability while getting the rest of the fleet in decent shape.
-Hank
With the increasing reliability of the subway fleet, the problems of taking multiple cars out of service if only one breaks down is a moot question.
I have stated several times, the point is NOT moot. In order to achieve the same availability for 5 car linked units you MUST increase the MDBF to 5 times that for the same cars operated as single units.
The MDBF appears to have improved two to three fold. That means that they are only 40%-60% of the way to achieving the same availability that they had 7 years ago, when they had single units.
However, if cars were configured this way 20 years ago, then half the fleet would probably be unavailable on any given day.
The present figure is around 85%. This has been stagnant for a decade.
the issue of mdbf and car availability is a troubling area for me--- you said that 85% of the fleet is available on any given day--- what is the reason for a car's unavailability?--- my guess is that over 90% of it is for scheduled maintenance--- i would be very surprised if a large number of unavailable cars are in that state because of a breakdown---
let's say a car has dead motors and it is part of a 5 car set--- how is that car serviced?--- can they cut it from the other 4 cars, or do they have to bring the whole 5 car set into the shop?---
i used to work in the garage at railway express years ago--- the shop foreman would keep a list of out of service trucks and the work required on them--- most of the shopped trucks were as a result of inservice breakdowns and defects reported by the drivers--- there was a preventive maintenance operation that would pull a couple of trucks each night for oil change, greasing, and general check over
my sense of what's going on in transit is that they have been engaged in an aggressive preventive maintenance as well as a program of modifying general defects or problems in a whole fleet--- about 5 or 10 years ago, when i toured coney island shop, they were just beginning some major overhaul or retrofit of the r68's--- i have a suspicion that the amount of money that they have poured into that particular set of cars is enormous--- even though mdbf may be at record highs, the cost of keeping those cars in service, i suspect, is very high---
has the fleet of r62's required as much attention as the 68's---
I think the majority of the 15% of the fleet that's unavailable on a given day is because these cars are recieving their scheduled maintenance. Particularly the R62 and R68, which receive regular maintenance and have all vital parts replaced before the life of that part is exceeded. This explains why both these car classes have such high MDBF's. An admirable accomplishment.
But the R68 is still too damn slow. LOL
(sorry, Steve)
chris--- you say that the replacing of components before their expired life is an admirable accomplishment--- but what is the cost of doing that?--- what was the original cost per car of the r68's?--- and how much additional money has been invested in maintaining and correcting problems that developed with the cars? how are average lifetimes of components calculated? are the impressive mdbf coming at an extreme cost?
Do you own an automobile? Do you not perform routine maintenance on it? Do you not replace the timing belt before it breaks? Railroads, like airlines perform scheduled maintenance because breakdown maintenance is far more costly in the long run. As for modifying the bugs out of a railcar fleet, what would you do? In 1994 the R-68s were operating at an MDBF of about 30,000 miles. Six years later they operate at about 4 times that. What would you have done with the 425 car fleet, scrap it?
i don't own a car--- i ride around on a bicycle---
the brake blocks are worn, and 3rd gear on the rear sprocket has been worn out for several years--- the bike cost me $30 at a yard sale about 6 years ago--- if i went to replace the rear derailleur and the sprocket, it would cost more than the bike was worth--- if i had the mta's money, i would replace all the systems and keep rolling along according to specs.
i think my question was how much is it costing to keep these cars rolling in their current condition?
i also would be interested in a list of the major systems that have been overhauled and the reason for the work?
the tour of coney island shops several years ago was about the time they were doing some major modification---
Sorry if I misunderstood your point. I don't have $$$ amounts but I can give you some info. SMS is done in 4 year, 6 year, 7 year and 12 year cycles. On the 4 year SMS, all air brake valves are replaced (FRA requires this on a 2 year cycle). On the 6 year SMS trucks are replaced (with rebuilt trucks). On 7 year SMS the air compressors are replaced. On the 12 year SMS, the workscope is intensive. It's in essence an overhaul but the workscope can vary depending on the needs of the fleet involved.
For the R-68s this included:
Replace trucks
Replace brake valve with Wabco type
Link to 4-car consists
replace all door tracks & hangers
Replace HVAC blowers with AC motors & inverters
Rebuilt HVAC Compressors
Replace Westinghouse propulsion with Adtranz E-Cam.
Paint Bonnets on open ends
Normally after an overhaul of this size, there is a period of declining performance until minor bugs are worked out of the cars. I'm happy to report that except for some minor door re-adjustments, the R-68s are performing as well or better than before overhaul. As they are tweaked and fine tuned, they will continue to improve.
thanks for the info steve--- i have two questions--
replacing westinghouse propulsion with adtranz e-cam
sounds like a big job--- what does "westinghouse
propulsion" refer to? motors? controller? ??
if a private operator were running the subways, and
they wanted to take care of their equipment, but
they also had to consider staying in business---
would they be able to do this kind of maintenance?
i think there was a time when the city replaced
street lamp bulbs or maybe traffic light bulbs on a
fixed schedule--- if a bulb's life was 1 year for
example, they would replace them in 10 months--- i
think the rationale was it would be cheaper to
replace them before they burned out--- i don't know
if they still do that--- there is a wastefulness to
that practice, in that you are discarding bulbs
before they burn out
what does that have to do with transit? again, i am
sort of wondering if a private operator could afford
to do such aggressive work?
or permit me another strange analogy--- i use to get
the fire department's monthly magazine--- there was
usually an article about a large fire written by the
chief who worked the fire--- at the end of the
article there was a "lessons learned" section, where
the chief would discuss the implications of the fire
and how it was fought-----
i don't know how you would rate the quality of the
r-68 fleet when it was delivered--- i really don't
know if the fleet suffered from design problems or
is considered an average designed fleet?--- are
there any lessons that have been learned from their
years on the property?
i won't put you on the spot--- but what will be with the newest fleet of cars being delivered?
(Would a private operator do so much preventive maintenance?)
He would if he had the TA's labor costs, and it saved labor in the long run. The TA can't afford to waste time.
larry--- i am not sure i agree with your analysis about labor costs--- also i wonder about whether the ta can afford to waste time--- how many years does it take to test a piece of equipment? i think they have the r110a's and b's for 6 or 7 years--- what were they doing over that period of time?
Those cars were prototypes with a ton of new features and equipment, thus necessitating the LONG testing periods.
The 110s were 'proof-of-concept' cars, incorporating hundreds of new features, many of which didn't make it into the production 142s. It's just like GM, which will test the body parts of a new vehicle on the frame of the old, or an oversized engine in a 1999 Ford Ranger to see if it's powerful and durable enoguh to use in the 2001 model. (they call it a test mule) After you determine from the POC carwhat works and what doesn't, you set about building yourself a pre-production model (usually by hand) This is the one they test extensively. Then they'll test maybe the first 100 off the assembly line, and then they finally say, 'OK, let's sell them!'
Same with subway cars, only on a different scale.
-Hank
The theory of preventive maintenance is that it is less
costly to fix something before it breaks. When a component fails
on a subway car, it not only means the labor of replacing it (plus
whatever else might have been damaged from its failure), but also
the labor of having to take the train out of service, and the
indirect costs associated with having train delays.
The SMS program is an extremum in the history of maintenance in
the NYC transit system, both private and public. Certainly if you
look at the history of the IRT and BR/MT, they did not change
components like this. Labor was cheaper, and they probably put
in as much if not more time on maintenance...don't forget the older
cars were much, much more maintenance-intensive than modern equipment.
The cost of material (components) was much higher relative to labor
than today, so most of the maintenance practices were directed at
saving material. They'd have rather paid mechanics to tinker with
tempermental things than to just rip them out and replace them
with brand-new components.
Last question first - The R-68 & R-68A were treated like large R-42s. None of the new tech stuff that went into the R-44 and R-46. Hence, it would appear that much of the detail was left to the builders without the 'benifit' of TA engineering oversight when the cars were ordered. Many of the problems of the R-68 fleet came from those 'cute innovations' which the builder added unchallanged (I will not specify for space reasons only) Much of the improvements we've made tot he R-68 over the last 6 years has addressed these issues as well as known weak-links on other fleets.
The Adtranz E-Cam unit refers to the group switch box only. By contract, the new unit had to function with the old propulsion and braking grids.
As for whether a private company can afford to do such preventive maintenance, I ask you can they afford not to? If you are not sure, check with Alaska Air. Car #2579 burnt because the Westinghouse propulsion system was prone to causing 'hot grid' incidents. At least one such incident led to injured customers. The E-Cam group switch box is less than $50K + installation and will be installed on R-68A and R-62A in addition to R-68s. That's 1450 cars X $50,000 or $72 million. What do you think the TA will save in maintaining the old group sw. boxes, save in repairing burnt cars, or save in potential lawsuits.
I hope that addresses some of your concerns.
thanks steve-- i especially appreciated the details on the switch box replacements and the consideration of costs and dangers of not replacing them---
i'd like to pose a question in a way that would not put you on the spot---
if there was a large meeting of all the people who are responsible for the operation and maintenance of the subway car fleet--- and they were charged with producing a report which would recommend the characteristics of the ideal new subway car to be ordered in large numbers--- let's say to replace the r142's which will never be found acceptable (sorry for cheap shot)--- what would be the recommendations of such a PCC convention?
1. stay with the current equipment
2. try some new technology
3. study the problem for another 10 years (cheap shot)
would this commission be able to recommend an ideal car that would reflect all that has been learned with the current fleet?
if a private operator were running the subways, and they wanted to take care of their equipment, but they also had to consider staying in business--- would they be able to do this kind of maintenance?
In many cases they would do more maintenance. Many regulated utilities have unregulated subsidiaries to whom they "outsource" expensive work. The subsidiaries charge top dollar. This reduces the profit on the regulated side - thereby justifying high rates, but keeping the profits for the shareholders.
Examples of this corporate legerdermain that come to mind are: Western Electric for AT&T prior to the split; Empire City Subway for NY Tel; Transit Development Company for the BRT/BMT.
The availability figure was close to 90%, when the BOT ran things and they still did preventative maintenance. Is there any reason why this figure should not be used as a benchmark for comparing present performance. From an economic perspective that translates to about 300 cars or $600 million! :-)
I agree -- this is a productivity thing the TA could do WITHOUT cutting heads. Ideally from a passenger and taxpayer perspective, Car Equipment would do most of its work overnight, when most trains are not needed, but no one wants to work overnight.
If, on the other hand, work could be done between 10 a.m. and 10 p.m., cars could be used in the morning rush on days they are scheduled for maintenance. These days, the morning rush requires more cars than the evening rush.
Aren't these the newest cars in the fleet getting all this work done?
At least their door chimes are in tune. I'll give them that.
One of the reasons,I dislike the linking of cars, beside it changes the way they were originally delivered, is that when one has a problem you lose the others in the link. We never unlink sets. It used to be the 62A's were cut into single units and inspected, propulsion,under car, car body, about every 90 days or about 10,000 miles. Now they bring in 5 car links. I think single units were much easier to work with. If we have a problem on the road, single units, can be set up easier and safer to be moved. The reason the TA linked cars was to save on maintenance costs. It just goes to prove..."You can't get something for nothing".
They were ordered with the ability to be converted to linked sets, so they're doing exactly what they've been designed for.
As for the inspections, now you inspect all 5 cars at once. You always know where all 5 of those cars are, no worries about what train 1234 might be part of when it's permenantly connected to 1231, 1232, 1233, and 1235. And how often do they have problems on the road these days? Have they ever cut defective cars out of a train on the road? Usually they just take the entire train OOS.
-Hank
What is the formula for deriving the MDBF? WHere can I find it?
I plan to go to NYC to take some pictures on #6 Redbirds. I know two places are good photo-ops: Whitlock Ave and Westchester Square. Does any other place have also good photo-op?
Thanks for the info.
Chaohwa
Now is the Best time to get Pictures of Redbirds on the Pelham Line. The Redbirds are out in full force on Weekends. On Saturdays most of the R62A'S are sitting in the Yard. Yesterday there was a Total of 4 Trains of R62A'S on the road. So Enjoy the R29'S R33'S and R36'S.
Why is that? Shouldn't newer cars be on the road and older cars be getting their rest during off-peak hours? Wasn't that why the cars on the B and Q lines were switched so the R40s could rest on the weekends and at night. Over on the 5 they do the same thing, they rest both sets of R62As on the weekends. I don't know why they are resting the 62As on the 5 and 6, but it just doesn't make sense.
Try Westchester Square. Very nice shots can be had of the downtown train as it arrives on the structure from Middletown Road.
You can sometimes get pictures of laid-up Redbirds on the non-revenue center track at Buhre Avenue.
Pelham Bay Park station has some funny-looking platform lights - angular,new heads stuck on ancient 1917 posts, some still wearing their original plaques.
North end of southbound platform at Whitlock Avenue is tough to beat for action shots, especially an express going around that curve.
Some of the underground stops have interesting tilework too. Check out the tire sculpture outside the Hunts Point Avenue station (at street level).
Wayne
Thanks for the info. :)
My plan is to visit Pelham line tomorrow around 11AM to 1PM. At that period it is better to shoot southbound Redbirds from the northbound platform. I will shoot at the north end of the southbound platform of Whitlock Av near 1 PM. I think that is the best time to shoot Redbirds at that angle.
Hopefully there will be Redbirds at the right time for me to shoot.
Chaohwa
Elder Ave, Pelham-Bay-bound platform, at the front. Nice view of El going for 3 stops. Makes especially good video. But the station shakes like a magnitude 5 earthquake while trains rumble through ....
--Mark
Wayne, your information really helps me!
Today I rode a 3AM Amtrak train from DC to NY Penn. I rode #4 to Yankee Stadium to take some pictures on #4 Redbird trains with Yankee Stadium as the background from the front of the northbound platform. I was somewhat disappointed because the end of southbound trains were dark. Also, because of sunrise, there were a lot of shadows. It is very hard to take photos with a lot of shadows.
Before going to my main mission-- Pelham line, I went to Dyre Avenue line's Gun Hill Road to see whether the R142A train was testing. I was lucky. I took more than 10 slides of it. Finally I discovered that between 10AM and noon is the best time to take Redbird pictures from the northbound platform.
After getting off at Simpson Street, I walked along Westchester Avenue to Pelham line's Whitlock Avenue station. I found that 11 AM is a good time to shoot southbound trains from the end of the southbound platform. Then I went to Westchester Square, Buhre Avenue, and Pelham Bay Park. As Wayne mentioned earlier, there was indeed a Redbird train sitting on the central track at Buhre Avenue. As I predicted, 11AM to noon is a good time to shoot southbound trains at Westchester Square.
Today's weather is great, but I was so tired that I took a 2:20PM Amtrak train back to D.C. Hopefully my slides do not disappoint me.
Chaohwa
How crowded was the 3AM train? I've known about Train 12's existance but who would take a train at such an hour.
For me, if I want to take NYC Subway pictures at sunrise except summers, I have to take Train 12.
When I went to Union Station at 2:40 AM, there were about 30 people waiting for Train 12. Like me, most of them went to New York. Train 12 became crowded in Philly. I really admire those who take this train to work!
Chaohwa
It's funny that in the movie Carlito's Way when Al Pacino gets on board the R30 in the last car it # 8277 (it was redbird) but the designation signs read: SOUTH FERRY
242 ST-B'WAY
BROADWAY THRU EXP
It was placed in 1975 but filmed in 1993(I bet it was during the time of the R30 fantrip that they did all the scenes)but they were making it to pretend that it was on the IRT Broadway Line it was 125 St but it was filmed at Smith 9th St the signs were in the old ways with big capital letters. But did the # 1 train back in that time did it run Express in Broadway. The main thing is that I don't get is that how the hell that added IRT roll curtains on the R30 in the movie. why couldn't they use R26/28.
Maybe it was done by the studio in Los Angeles that had all the R27/30 cars used in Money Train, Die Hard with a Vengeance, and others. They had (at least as far as I can verify) 8275, 8401, 8408 and about nine others.
03/05/2000
I haven't seen Carlito's Way, but now you mentioned it, I'll check it out. If the interior looked a little wide, it probably was an R-30. As far as IRT curtain signs, they can swapped in place of the BMT/IND ones. Why couldn't they use an R-26 or 28? Because the TA couldn't spare one, equipment shortage.
Bill Newkirk
No - the #1 B'way 7th Ave IRT did not run as an express at that time or any time between the '60's and now.
I remember when this movie was being filmed in 1993. The R30 had already been retired. I saw the odd looking R30 with IRT signs sitting at Hoyt-Schermerorn. As for why they used this train instead of an IRT train, my guess would be that because the scenes were being filmed on the B division, and that the R30's were sitting dormant at the Pitkin Ave. yard (the R30 saw its final days on the C line), it was probably easier to convert them. Only railfans would notice the difference from an IRT train. 70-ish signs would've had to have been installed on any IRT redbird used for this movie anyway.
03/05/2000
Just spotted a new TV commercial for "Fear Effect", a new video game by Eidos. The scene shows a interesting looking knockoff of a GOH R-38. I believe this is a Hollywood type set, I saw another commercial with this set because the giveaway was that the picture windows showed the opening portions on the bottom as opposed to the top. The florescent lights look very different too. It usually airs during WWF or WCW wrestling programs. Have your VCR ready to record so you can check it out in slow motion.
Bill Newkirk
seen the mentos gimmick?
One of the MTV commercials features a R38 interior.
I know that MTV have a scene in which a R32 C enters 42St......
3TM
03/05/2000
As much as I dislike the Airtrain routing, I must say ther is a lot of progress inside JFK on the expressway. There are numerous concrete columns with flared tops all over the place. This reminds me of the early 70's when the city was rebuilding the infamous Brucker traffic circle in thre Bronx (concrete columns everwhere).
I even saw at least one guideway portion straddled between two columns. Since I was driving my car, I couldn't really view everything. Perhaps if you want to check it out, maybe ride a TA bus that circumvents the terminals. Get ready for a one seat ride to Jamaica station !
Bill Newkirk
I'm going to be going to JFK on the 16th - after dark, unfortunately - and returning on the 24th just as the sun comes up. Hopefully I'll be able to get a good view from the terminal bus to Howard Beach.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I recently rode the B15 out to JFK. I did see the provisions and what appeared to be track rail piled up on top of each other. The rails were rusted. Also noticed a big ad for AIRTRAIN on the roadway......
3TM
I was over by Terminal 7 two weeks ago and it looked like they had poured part of the station for that location.
-- Kirk
I took the A train to Howard Beach yesterday and road the shuttle bus to the terminals. It looks loike they are building the Airtrain line from the subway end toward the terminals. The guideway is in place in the parking lot and, it seems, most of the way to the terminal area. There is some guideway in place in the terminal area also, but mostly it's just the columns there.
I found it very interesting that they appear to be pouring the columns in place, but the guideway seems to be prefab sections that are lowered into place on top of the columns by crane.
One thing especially puzzles me: The end of the guideway (or as much as has been built so far) at the subway station is elevated. Does anyone know what the plan is for finishing this off? Is there going to be a station in the parking lot, with people descending to the surface and then entering the subway or will the Airtrain guideway be extended over the subway ROW and a station be built on a level with the existing subway station cross over? Or will the guideway swing over the subway station and ramp down to the level of the subway ROW so that there can be cross-platform transfers? Or some other arangement?
The airtrain appears to termiate at it elavated location with a station/platform extending over the A ROW and ramp down. There is to be a stop at Lefferts Blvd. amidst the long term parking area, then it goes to grade on a single trackto a station at Federal Circle and over Van Wyck Expway. Down to grade again for a run to the terminal area, under a taxiway , up and diverging to what appears to be to loops around a divided (2) sections terminal area. Footing is in place on both sides, North and south of belt Pkway with rebar peddestals waiting to pour concret. It's going very fast in my humble opinion.
I wonder if it could support a set of hippos?
I would think that the Port Auth will keep the Long Term Parking Lot piece on the airport property as much as possible.
The line to Jamaica will take a different route, up the Van Wyke, and may someday be sold to the TA, at least we can hope for that.
A chart I recently saw in a "trade" maganine shows the lines splitting after the Federal Circle station.
BTW, Anyone want to take this as a FAQ assignment for Dave ?
Mr t__:^)
The worst of it is that motorists will be able to take the airtrain for free from the long-term parking lots, whereas subway riders will have to pay $5 from the Howard Beach station to the terminals. Do you think someone will knock a hole in the fence between the subway station and the parking lots?
...motorists will be able to take the airtrain for free from the long-term parking lots, whereas subway riders will have to pay $5...
The point for Airtrain was to serve the parking lot patrons. The projected use figures in the EIS demonstrate this. The link to the subway stations was a red herring to divert attention to the fact that this "rail" project will increase motor traffic.
Five dollars? But the shuttle bus is free? So they are going to take away the bus and have subway riders pay $5?
Yes. Disgusting, isn't it?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How much does a pair of wire cutters cost?
(Airtrain will be free from parking lots, $5.00 from A train)
This is really an outrage. The Airtrain is being paid for by landing fees and a passenger facility surcharge that ALL passengers pay, including those riding the subway. How could they possibly justify this?
THEY don't want THOSE people to use it, as they remember all THOSE people from Howard Beach that use to use the JFK Express. THEY fixed them by killing that train :-(
Mr t
Five years and five thousand dollars, if used like I think you're suggesting :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wasn't suggesting anything. I was just wondering how long it will take before the fence starts disappearing, a little piece at a time.
Are you seriously suggesting that more people will fly because of the airtrain link to the parking lot? Or do you think that the Airtrain will cause people to switch from the subway or city bus to their cars for trips through JFK?
Are you seriously suggesting that more people will fly because of the airtrain link to the parking lot? Or do you think that the Airtrain will cause people to switch from the subway or city bus to their cars for trips through JFK?
The most important stops are the employee and long term parking lots. These lots are distant from the terminal areas. The Airtrain will make them convenient and encourage more automobile use. The immediate losers will be car pooling for the employees and the airport limo services for the passengers.
I see your point about the limos. Some people who own cars may be taking limos and leaving their cars at home because of the inconvenience of getting from the parking to the terminals. I have my doubts about the employee angle. I think that most car pooling is motivated by money, not convenience.
Whenever I've taken a limo to the airport, it is due to the high cost of parking at JFK and LGA.
-- Kirk
What about trips in the other direction?
Has anyone heard any news about the lawsuit that was brought to stop the use of the Van Wycke route to Jamaica Station? Has any work actually been done Norht of the point where the two routes diverge?
[Has any work actually been done Norht of the point where the two routes diverge?]
As far as I know that phase of the project hasn't been funded yet.
Mr t__:^)
So the Rockaway line fan club still has a chance.
Actually, it is being built from the CTA to LT parking area and the subway station. The PA has a map on their web site. If you write them, they have an interesting information package that includes drawings of the proposed stations.
A Question:
Legally, does holding train doors open constitute vandalism? After all, it does do damage to the door mechanism (regardless of whether such damage is the actual motivation).
If it IS vandalism, why is it never prosecuted as such?
If it IS vandalism, why is it never prosecuted as such?
probably for the same reason that a conductor "striking" a passenger by closing a door on them is never prosecuted for assult and battery.
Do you consider it assault and battery when the passenger jumps into the train after the doors have started the closing mode and the passenger gets struck by the closing doors?
Wouldn't that be up to a judge and jury to decide? :-)
BTW why do you suppose that the MTA insists that it be exempt from local health and fire regulations - to provide better service? :-)
Don't give me that crap. I have been a NYCT conductor and motorman for over 20 years. I see people put their body parts into subway car doors to prevent them from closing countless times daily. And if you ever ride the subway, if you are honest, you will admit you see it too. Just last Friday at Jamaica Center E line, some stupid female put her left ankle into a closing door. The door closed around her ankle. Here she is standing with one foot on the platform like an ostrich, with the other having the door rubber wrapped around it. I happened to be walking on the platform and she smiled at me. I told he that she wouldn't be smiling if the train started to move. The conductor had to reopen the doors, only when he tried to close down again, others were holding doors in other cars. Another late train BEFORE the wheels ever turned! Are we supposed put survailance cameras at every door operator. Maybe, because 99.9% of the time it will prove the passenger at fault by virtue of his own negligence and not that of the TA. As for your second question, I am not an MTA bureaucrat, I don't think they should be exempt. You raise an issue which has nothing to do with the first one.
Let me give you a serious answer, as rush hour observer from the mid and late 1950's to the present. Rush hour service has decreased 32% based on train frequency and length alone. Available door width has decreased 20% per unit car length. These are large numbers, especially since demand has remained constant.
The riding public has been brutalized by these conditions. They are reacting like caged animals. Civility requires more service than NYCT is willing to provide.
Many crowding conditions are dangerous. An operator of any building would be in violation of the fire code, if he were to permit the loading present in subway cars and in platforms. The MTA realized this and got itself exempted from such impediments.
My view is that the MTA/NYCT management are as culpable as the passengers whose conduct you decry.
To repeat:
Any train that holds for every last passenger (at ALL times, at ALL costs) is a train that goes nowhere (at ALL).
A two-minute headway is already difficult to maintain; by holding for every last passenger, you'd actually punish everyone already on board the train in question (and following trains) for the benefit of one straggler. That's not good social economics: the total cost to society (delay to 2,000+ people) outweighs the benefit (one person avoids a 2-minute wait).
At some point, the doors must be allowed to close and the train must be allowed to move.
...A two-minute headway is already difficult to maintain...
Name a single line that is running a 2-minute headway or 30 tph. Most are running 25 tph (6) or 27 (E+F). The best is the Flushing Line (7) with 29 tph. In the not so distant past: 30 tph was the norm; with 33 tph on the E+F and 36 tph on the 7.
Perhaps, if they really did run 2-minute headways - with no reduction on the number of cars per train - they would find it easier to maintain the schedules.
Precisely. Thirty trains per hour WAS the norm, until
passengers began insisting that every train was the last
train that would ever move, and thus had to hold it so
that it would never move.
Precisely. Thirty trains per hour WAS the norm, until passengers began insisting that every train was the last train that would ever move, and thus had to hold it so that it would never move.
This is a chicken and egg question. Did the TA reduce the number of TPH and thereby create a dwell time problem or did the passengers increase dwell time and thereby reduce the number of TPH?
Here are some actions that the passengers did not take. Reduce the length of trains on the E&F by 9%. Design 75' cars that require 20% more loading time due to inadequate door space. Design cars that have less usable interior space for passengers to create crush loading conditions. Increase the length of stations but not increase the entrance/exit facilities and thereby create congestion at the station platforms. Lengthen routes so that there is reduced service in the midtown and downtown.
If passenger behavior were to change overnight, there is not enough equipment to run 30 tph. What about the equipment that remains? Some actions that the passengers have not taken have been to reduce availability through linked cars. Require more trains for a given run by increasing run time by reducing acceleration/braking rates and by reducing the average speed.
It is not at all clear in my mind which came first and who the vandals are.
[This is a chicken and egg question. Did the TA reduce the number of TPH and thereby create a dwell time problem or did the passengers increase dwell time and thereby reduce the number of TPH?]
As is so often the case, I suspect it's six of one, a half-dozen of the other.
Can't wait to see how many trains are delayed when the R142 enter service with their auto-rebound doors. 3 times it tries to close, after that, it alerts the conductor, and the train is delayed. This is what I gathered from the R142 coverage on Transit Transit.
-Hank
The TA will eliminate that feature as soon as they evaluate a big dip in on time performance, not to mention the redbirds will always catch up to their R142 leader during the transitional period because of this. When the R44's came out on the F with their 3-5 second delay between the time the conductor pushed the closing buttons and the time the doors acually closed, their R40 followers always caught up.
I think for starters, a funciton for the conductor that only opens doors that aren't closed would help. That way, you could re-open and close the doors that were being held without opening up chances on the rest of the section for more people to block the doors. Replacing the fault lights with rotating, flashing lights would help draw attention to the offenders.
Second, prepare a 15 minute video on the evils of holding the doors. Randomly arrest people who are doing it and have the video play repeatedly while they wait to be booked.
Holding Doors is a $100 doller fine if a cop pushes the issue.
Whatever happened to "courtesy" in this place.
The REAL question is this:
Do the 2,000 people who are already on a train (and were willing to wait for it) really "owe" courtesy to one person with a superiority complex, especially when the following train's headlights are clearly visible?
Even a 30-second hold can destroy a two-minute headway, and a train that HOLDS FOR EVERY LAST PERSON (at all times, at all costs) is a train that DOES NOT MOVE (at all).
(Whatever happened to courtesy)
Back in the 1980s, someone would run down, grab the doors, and wait while three of four friends ambled down the stairs. Trains were taken out of service due to door motor burnouts all the time.
My observation is that this type of behavior, and door problems, are way, way down. You hardly ever see it. Half the time the conductor is yelling release the doors, the problem is with the system, not with someone holding the doors.
Recall I switch around and ride different lines in Brooklyn. I say things are better. Anyone have different experiences?
The "hold the train while my friend decides how much money to put on his MetroCard" mentality is alive and well on Queens Blvd., especially at Roosevelt Avenue and Union Turnpike (tourists connecting from the airports).
Door holding should be permanently classified as a Stupid Human Trick.
Along with the millions of other Stupid Human Tricks.
Like this one:
Some guy was talking on a pay phone while a train was preparing to leave. He sticks his foot in the door opening, while the phone cord is taut, and this guy is preparing to keep the doors from closing while finishing the conversation. Pretty dumb, eh?
Not only do people hold the doors getting ON a train, now they're holding them getting OFF as they finish their conversation with their friend who's staying on.
I'd like to yell something along the lines of "Why don't you call each other later and let the train go?", but I value my life.
I've seen passengers who ask other passengers to let go of the doors, move into the car, remove their packages from seats when there are standees, etc. receive much verbal- and even physical- abuse from the perpetrator.
If we all spoke our minds to everyone who irritated us on the trains, there'd be no one left alive to ride them!
Door-motor burnouts are down. Holding the doors for friends is still a happening thing. But the worst ones are:
A - the parents who send their little kids to stand in the door, while they (the parents) slowly climb to the platform.
B - the parents who run for the train and stand in the doors while their toddler toddles up the stairs to the platform.
IMHO, both cases should be prosecuted as child endangerment and abandonment. Maybe then it would stop.
Got one better: the parent who holds the door with the kid in the stroller!
-Hank
No offense to all you anti-door holders but if I'm on a train by the door and see someone running for it yelling "hold the door" I WILL hold the door for them. And if its a pretty girl then I DEFINITELY WILL. That's common courtesy and good manners.
Everyone's complaining about door holders but a few months ago there was a long thread here complaining about conductors closing doors on people.
Then YOU WILL be subject to arrest, fine, and/or ejection from the system. Wouldn't look good on a police officer's record, would it, Sergeant? :-)
David
What is the offical policy of the NYCTA about Baby carriages and large
strollers?
On monday , this week, three adults two carriages and two infants (under age 2yrs.) ENTERED 5TH Ave Station. the Madison end, tied up the down escalator,the down lower platform stairs, then took up a large area on the Queens bound "F".
Are there certain times or restrictions similar to bus rules and reg's?
[What is the offical policy of the NYCTA about Baby carriages and large strollers?
On monday , this week, three adults two carriages and two infants (under age 2yrs.) ENTERED 5TH Ave Station. the Madison end, tied up the down escalator,the down lower platform stairs, then took up a large area on the Queens bound "F". Are there certain times or restrictions similar to bus rules and reg's?]
Open strollers used to be prohibited on trains and in stations, but the rule was changed a while back at the urging of Ruth Messenger (we can't inconvenience all those mommies on the Upper West Side, can we?) It would be interesting to see whether open strollers could still run afoul of the general prohibition on large bulky objects.
You are totally correct that strollers can be a royal pain. In some ways, they're worse than bicycles - one person can easily carry a bicycle up and down stairs, while a stroller is generally a two-person job.
You mean all those nannies, right?
-Hank
Go ahead! Then after you decide to let go because the conductor had to reopen, someone else holds a door for someone else and so on. Before you know it, another late train because as that tain gets later and later, it begins to pick up the passengers who should be on the next train. I see it on the E ALL the time and it is starting to wear me out! 4 to 5 minute headway during the rush, 7 1/2 minutes middays. Contrary to popular belief, every main line route operates more than one train!
Door holding isn't vandalism, it is an added value for the soap hounds who work here. Time and a half is a great time to hold the doors for the whole family. We get overtime and the train gets overcrowded and runs even later. Meanwhile, the underutilized follower sits behind red signals while a conductor has to reopen and close doors several times. Passengers pay by riding an inefficient service to support the people who get paid to attempt to deliver fast safe service. Some of us want to go home too. Don't hold the train doors unless you have a rabbi downtown who will protect you from the undercovers out there. They are writing tickets and yanked one from my train at Franklin Av last week.
BTW, I won't call the cops, I am one of the soap hounds :-)
Show me the money!
It is only good for the soap hounds when it is on your last half trip. Other than that, a late arrival due to door holding or any other reason takes away minutes from your recovery time in between trips and time from your lunch period.
If somebody is holding the doors in my operating car, I open the cab door or window and tell them to let the door close.
They even try to do it on streetcars. On the 15 line (Baltimore), somebody (male or female) would bang on the doors, just as the light turned green and I started to take power. I would refuse to stop, as I wanted to make the light, and my follower was 2 minutes behind me. Rush hours on the 8 line were almost as bad. 34 years later, they still do it to buses.
Normally What I do at those stops where the Crowd by the First Car is Holding Doors Like 51 Street I just lean on the horn intil they let go. I do use the Police Horn Signal code to hopefully attract a cop that Never comes. The only justice is the Door Holder gets a Hear ach. I also call Control about the delay and they normally tell me to blow for Police anyway. Sometimes I get lucky and Grand Central tells me after 59 Street make your next stop 86 Street.
It may be "common courtesy and good manners" to hold the door for ONE person, but very, very, VERY RUDE to the 2,000+ people whom you are deliberately delaying. Think about that one for a minute, or an hour.
Again: The 2,000 delayed passengers do not "OWE" a debt of any kind to some straggler who happens to be an attractive woman, nor would they "owe" the same debt to an ugly man like me. "The needs of the (very) many outweigh the needs of the few, or of the one."
Besides, there's probably ANOTHER pretty girl already on the train, whom you're dissing by holding the train. How would you answer to her?
I think that there us a way that we can have our door and hold it too. Why don't they work things like on real commuter rail or Amtrak where the conductor holds 1 or 2 doors open untill the train clears the platform. The subway doors should be hels open until the train reaches a certain speed, at which point they would close. Or the conductor could hold the closest to his position open until he felt the train was moving too fast. This would give motovated people (who really need to catch THIS train) the oppurtunity to run for it as is the case on commuter rail. It would also give the commuters a chance to act out heroic railroad scenes from such movies as Dr.Zhivago. Keep in mind that I am serious about this. I am somewhat of a social Darwinist, who supports reward for personal initiative
As an aside, my friend told me how kids don't even need an open door. He saw 2 mental giants board a departing NJT commuter train by leaping through the 2'x2' door windows that had been left open. One of the kids' feet were dangling outside the train for a considerable distance. The conductor yelled at them for aboot 5 min straight.
Also the best way to combat unauthorized door holdings is a little devise that costs about 5$. In fact I'll bet that each of you has one in your place of residence. If you still don't know what I'm talking about go look in your toaster.
As you all know a toaster objects violently when it wants to pop up and is forceably held down. By installing one of these buzzers in a subway door, if someone trys to hold the door, it will make an incredible. First of all, the train crew, nearby police and everyone else on the train and platform will know that a door holding incident is taking place. Because humans tend to look toward loud noises, the door holder will be instantly recoginzable. Meanwhile the door holder will be hit by a wave of self-consiousness. He will also be hit by the stares and abusive words of the people around him, as well as trash, small missiles or blunt objects. If criminals like to work in the dark, shine a light on them.
I can see the multi-million dollar settlements now from this idea. "They shouldn't have left tohe door on the moving train open if they didn't mean for me to make a flying grab at it. And the next train should have stopped before it severed my legs. The TA was grossly negligent!"
-Hank
I was just browsing eBay and found this item - it is a 21¢ ticket from 1927 on the NYW&B. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=276347648
Note: I am in no way associated with the seller of this item - indeed, I've never done business with them as far as I can recall.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Someone here on the Redbirds until 2002 thread said that on the MTA page it says how long the R62s will last. Where did they find that?
Thanks in advance.
How are the R-142 test trains doing and how are the results of the extensive training going?How many test trains are now running?When will they go into service?
FOR THE LAST TIME!!!
After the pilot trains go without problems for 30 days, they will be tested in revenue service. One problem, the clock is turned back.
Sort of...
The IN-SERVICE test is for 30 consecutive days without a problem. They won't go into the IN-SERVICE test until they've been tested thoroughly without passengers and enough personnel (both operating and maintenance) have been qualified on them.
David
Hey buddy this is the last time about R-142 & right now they are testing until sometime May or June than they go on the road for 30 days without no problem. IF they pass it than they go service & they will deliever about 30 or 30 cars per months.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
PS: THIS IS THE LAST TIME & WE ALREADY TOLD EVERYBODY MANY TIME SO SIT BACK & RELAX.
If any one wanna to see R142??? well go to Dyre Av Line & they testing R142 & 142A between 10am to before 3pm. I took couple pictures today & boy they are Fantastic Trains.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Is this every day? between 10-3? Will it happen Thursday?
Is this every day? between 10-3? Will it happen Thursday? Also, were u able to ride one?
No, no. These are only the test trains. They haven't actually carried passengers yet.
-Stef
I saw the Kawasaki test train a couple of days ago. The set paused momentarily at Pelham Pkwy. When it was time to go, you could hear the T/O yell, "Stand Clear of the Train", and off the train went towards Dyre Av. It breezed out of the station fast. For a track that is supposed to be bad, Track Y3 performed rather well with the Test Train on it. I can't help but wonder if the track could be equipped to handle revenue trains should the need for an emergency reroute arise?
-Stef
Pelham Parkway is the pickup/dropoff point for employees who are riding the track-test train.
There are many Subtalkers. Each day many of these talkers go down into the ground and use the NYC Subway (or other transit system). Using complicated statistical models I have concluded that one subtalker will eventually meet another subtalker on the subway (where else?) The problem lies in the fact that there is no way to identify another subtalker with out asking everyone you see. Now I know that we can ID Heypaul by his white straight jacket, Pgitty by his comedy act and Pigs by his smell, but resorting to the old ID methods of yelling Niagra Falls or waving around the hey to the foodlocker might cause disruptions or injury to innoscent SubRiders. Not to mention that heypaul could escape, Pigs could take a bath and start walking on 2 legs (4 legs good, 2 legs better) and Pgitty could get the tar beat our of him.
What we need here at SubTalk is a secret sign. Something that would go un-noticed by the SubRider, but would be instantly recognizable to the SubTalker. Some of my thoughts include using a marker to write a large S on the back of the left hand or maybe writing S or ST on your beverage cup. A simple sign/counter sign for final confirmation could include "Excuse me, do you know how to get to the S train?" to which the SubTalker would reply, "You take the T train."
If enough transit professionals get on the board, SubTalk could become a real secret society with real secret society perks. Here is a sample dialogue:
"Excuse me Mr. T/O is this train out of service?"
"Yes"
::Makes sign of the S:: "Could we talk about it?"
"Maybe."
"Well heypaul sent me to look for the key and I need to get to -----."
"Hop on board."
All I can say is that when I come to NYC I'll write an S on my hand so if you see me, feel free to strike up a conversation.
why not paste a token on your forehead???
that says plenty.
(Why not tape a token on your forehead)
Not unversal enough. It would only work for the Subtalk luddite wing.
How about "Those 68s sure are slow" response "Nope the problem is the grade timers."
I like the "S" on the hand
better than the timer thingie
Perhaps a CIA style sign/countersign:
Sign:"The swift red bird".
Countersign:"Flies over the silver hippo" :)
Or, if you're ever on a BMT line and you suspect the guy sitting next to you is a subtalk regular, simply refer to the line by it's former number. So if you're on the J train, ask this question:
"Excuse me sir, is this the #15 to Jamaica?"
If the person doesn't give you a crazed look, he's gotta be a subtalker.
That seems to be the best way to go. But suppose you ask that of a woman, what then? She could think most anything from an attempted pickup to sexual harassment. And by the way, are there any women on our website beside BX55? I don't seem to know of any.
There are, Fred - I know of at least two more, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are others.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>If the person doesn't give you a crazed look, he's gotta be a subtalker.<<
Or someone who is totally numb from riding the J train.
Or if he says, "I thought the R-16s were gone by now."-)
Do we get to use the "Cone of Silence"?
I had read of a device recently in USA TODAY called GAYDAR , marketed to gay people, it is a device which emits radio waves which are picked up by any other GAYDAR units within 30 feet, a tone alerts the user that another GAYDAR user is nearby., A similar device on a different frequency may find application here.
Are you serious?
I heard about it the other day on the radio. No, thanks.
Interesting,but a bit too high tech for me. On the serious side,a lapel pin or button might be more practical. IIRC,there was a proposal for baseball caps some time ago. Unfortunately, nothing came of it.
Or maybe a subtalker ribbon, to clip on, like all the other ribbon they have out, or did (i havent seen a AIDS ribbon for a while)
This is NYC. Someone would probably just steal it off the forehead
>>This is NYC. Someone would probably just
>> steal it off the forehead..
Use glue.. ya can't take the whole forehead!
If this world let's us have tattoos on our ...
and ....s then who's to say we can't glue tokens
to our foreheads the way the redbirds have the
route numbers glued (and rolled) on theirs??
Baseball hat on straight,two red rubber bands on left wrist,pocket protector,train spotter notebook,one sock with elastic shot to hell and rolled down,can or spray window cleaner and blue paper towel for railfan window,camera or palmcorder or both. If you confront the mirror image, nod your head three times , slight grin, then you know!
got funpass?
Thanks but no thanks. I prefer to remain... Anon_e_mouse
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The best bet to find fellow subtalkers on the system is to be wherever the R142 is. New cars attract all kinds of railfans. I almost ran into Bill Newkirk at E180th St. last month when he was out looking to take pics of the new R142's.
Just look in the front or back of a train; I'm sure you'll find one there.
Always look for the >>>>RAILFAN WINDOW<<<<
Everytime I see a grown mad leering out the railfan window on a slant R40, I always think to myself..."Is that Wayne?"
Well, compare with this photo of Wayne here:
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yup, thats him. I saw him pull 2 kids away from the window on a Q train last week.
(just kidding)
If that Q train happened to be blowing past a D train, I can't blame him.-)
Was Wayne the one who switched the sign? AA to Coney Is??
Probably, but you'll have to ask him - I didn't take the picture, it's from the contributors page on this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wayne did not switch the sign. I too visit the museum- the signs have their gears removed so they cant be routinely changed- I confess that I have tried to change the signs to no avail!. The picture was taken by Peggy Darlington during one of their all-day photo shoots in the system.
I should've known it was the museum. It was late when I saw the picture and half asleep. I honestly thought it was an old picture of Wayne taken from when the R1-9's were still running. Out the window all you could see were the 1rst 2 letters of the station name on the tile- "CO" . That should have given it away to me-Court St, but silly me thought it was at Columbus Circle!!! Wait, does anyone hear aything????
You and me both. On top of that, those hinged access lids are bolted shut so you can't get inside. That goes for the bulkheads as well. Since I have my own R-1/9 sign box, it's no big deal.
Hey Anon-e-Mouse, post this picture again with the following wav in the background. Its from Hey Paul's tape: http://www.pagetalk.com./play.phtml?u=11050105&b=1
My html skills aren't good enough to do that. The picture is linked from the contributors' page on this site, I didn't take it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's one with the bull & pinion gear sound. Unfortunately its from a low-V, not an R-9. I got it from NYC Transit-BMT Lines who hasn't been posting lately: (Wait till it loads)
Those old timers all moaned and groaned about the same, so it should be close enough. The braking sounds varied. Since I never rode on any prewar IRT equipment, I have no idea what sort of air brake sounds they gave off. The R-1/9s had their trademark "tch-hssss" sound associated with their magnet valves while the BMT standards would go "tchhhhhhhh" just as they came to a full stop.
I wonder if the museum could pipe heypaul's tape on the station platform...
A better one!!!
Here's one with the bull & pinion gear sound.
Unfortunately its from a low-V, not an R-9. I got
it from NYC Transit-BMT Lines who hasn't been
posting lately:src="http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/lowv.wav"loop="infinite">
(Wait till it loads)
Is that the recrding Heypaul uses when he's in his R9 cab?
Hey Anon-e-Mouse, post this picture again with the following wav in the background. Its from Hey Paul's tape: http://www.pagetalk.com./play.phtml?u=11050105&b=1
I wonder who set that route sign to AA. Naahhhhh, not Wayne..-)
Wayne also keeps his carspotter's notebook in hand.
Speaking of the TRANSIT PROFESSIONALS, why not a horn signal to compliment the railfan friendly workers that lurk down here looking for HeyPaul? If you put an "S" on your head, we might cut you in half and toss you on the back of a Naporano truck so make sure it is not painted yellow.
I have a question for the board.Is there a reason that the EL passes close to the right field grandstand at Yankee Stadium? Was this done for zoning purposes.Baseball people always make historical references to the "short right field porch".Is the grandstand short for baseball purposes or was it short to compensate for the Woodlawn EL?
Yankee Stadium was laid out on the lot in such a way that it had a "short right field porch" for baseball purposes. Perhaps that explains why the "main" entrance to the stadium (i.e., right behind home plate) is at the opposite corner from 161 & River, where the IRT (and later the IND) station is.
An interesting note -- my father, who lived in the Bronx and spent much of his high school career sneaking out of school early to watch the Yankees play, says that when the Stadium was first built, there wasn't a fence above the right field bleachers, and it was possible to stand on the elevated platform (downtown side) and watch the ball games from there. He also said that he worked as a 'stile boy' at Yankee Stadium as a teen. The stile boys main job was to make sure that as people entered the stadium, the turnstile turned only once so that the counters would be accurate. He got paid 25 cents per game for this, and also got into the park for free to watch the game from about the 3rd inning on. He also says that on occasion Babe Ruth would buy hot dogs for all of the stile boys. (BTW - Dad is still doing well, he'll be 90 in May).
-- Ed Sachs
"...short right field porch for baseball purposes.." NOT exactly true.. Back in 1921,when Jacob Ruppert was looking for a site for the Stadium, he specifically chose that location moree for spite purposes that for anything else. He wanted to make sure that the new, maginificent Yankee ballpark was directly across from the Polo Grounds, so the Giants could see the crowds he was drawing..(They had told him to take a hike,son..) In those days, they had to lay out ballparks, so that the setting sun in the afternoon wouldn't be in the batters eyes (games started at 3 PM in those days..) So almost all older ballparks are laid out with home plate facing east. (This is also where the term 'southpaw' comes from, as the pitchers left arm would be on the southern side...) So when they were planning Yankee Stadium, the only way to fit the huge place was in the current configuration. [Also, the fact that YS was on a subway line that went directly down to Wall St didnt hurt at all....Yankee fans in those days tended to be conservative business types; while Giant fans was the show-biz crowd of the day...]
Now as far as being able to see into the park from the platform at 161 St- When the Stadium was built, the three tiered part of the stadium only went around to about section 30 or so, the rest of it being built in the 30's. But you could still see into the park from the platform until about the early 50's when advertising billboards went up.* There are pictures extant which show trains actually stopped to watch Lou Gehrig Day back in '39. And another famous shot shows Joe DiMaggio looking forlorn at the reconstruction of the Stadium from the platform there in 1974......probably one of the few times Joe D was EVER on a subway platform in his life...talk and ask your dad about this....
*actually, more like extended up....
Oddly enough, when HOK was designing Oriole Park, the home plate faces EAST, even though day games are a weekend only thing. At the old park (Memorial Stadium) home plate faced NORTH. (Memorial is on West 33rd Street, on the North side. It is now vacant, crumbling, and due to be raised eventually.
Memorial was served by streetcars until 1956, You can still ride a streetcar (aka LRV) to Oriole Park, just like you could do in 1920.
Come to think of it, most ballparks I know of have home plate oriented so the field is to the northeast. It's tat way at Anaheim Stadium and Dodger Stadium in California. Haven't been in the new park in San Francisco so I don't know which way that one is. And I seem to remember Fenway Park in boston being situated the same way.
(And funny thin, the old Kingdome in Seattle was, too, even though it was covered!)
Pac Bell Park in San Francisco faces east, it should have a view of the Oakland skyline.
Home plate at OPACY faces northeast, not east...the batter is looking directly at 250 West Pratt Street. Also, Memorial Stadium is on East 33rd Street. For one of the most depressing scenes you could imagine, ride the #36 bus behind the stadium, on East 36th Street. The heavily overgrown field will bring tears to your eyes.
Lou: I can tell by your message that you are a real baseball fan. Which team do you root for and can you envision a subway series this year between the Yankees and Mets? Boy that would be one hell of a hoot for the Big Apple, but I can tell you the whole country would be jumping over such an event.
Been a big time Yankee fan since 1975 (even thru the dog days of the 80s!)..was a Met fan when I was a kid, my aunt lived in Jackson Hgts (75th st),so going to Met games was easier... I dunno about that subway Series stuff ...lot of decent teams in the NL this year...
There were too many messages to read on this one, so someone may have already mentioned this. When the stadium was remodeled (I believe under the supervision of George), it was specificaly decided NOT to let any poor shlubs actually get a few free minutes of Yankee baseball, and the station walls were erected in such a way as to prevent this "theft" of a ballgame.
This sort of conversation needs to move to Off SubTalk. You have been invited.
I have signed up and got my password, but when I searched for off sub talk, they couldn't find it. What is the designation for it. Let me know as soon as possible because I'm anxious to get on.
Actually, you could still see a piece of right field from the south end of the downtown platform until the reconstruction of the Stadium which began after the 1972 season. Interestingly, you still sometimes see people on top of the Bronx County Courthouse which must be 1000 feet away.
I sent you something in the e-mail about it, although I took Off SubTalk kind of offline. It's still there and you could try to join, but I don't think it will get a following.
Lou: I can tell by your message that you are a real baseball fan. Which team do you root for and can you envision a subway series this year between the Yankees and Mets? Boy that would be one hell of a hoot for the Big Apple, but I can tell you the whole country would be jumping over such an event. A freeway series out here between the Dodgers and Angels would do little to arouse such excitement.
Oh yeah-almost forgot....originally YS was supposed to be tripled decked all the way around, but it was determined that the shadows would be too great (pre-lighted ballparks..), so that idea was scrapped. There is a pretty neat 'biography' of YS that was put out a few years back- your local library might have it,or be able to get it....
03/07/2000
I seen a picture taken in the 20's when what is now Yankee Stadium was a vast open lot. So this proves that the "el" predated the stadium. However if it were the other way around, the 161st St. "el" station would probably be an express station like Willtes Point on the #7 Flushing line. That may answer any questions why 161st St is a local stop.
Bill Newkirk
Willets Point was a local stop. It was converted into an express stop for the 1939 Worlds Fair. Shea Statium was built between 1962 and 1964.
Wasn't Willet's Point the terminal stop for the 2nd Av el cars, since wooden cars couldn't go to Main Street?
Wasn't Willet's Point the terminal stop for the 2nd Av el cars, since wooden cars couldn't go to Main Street?
Willets Point was the terminus for the 2nd Ave El. Wooden BMT gate cars terminated at Main St.
I don't know if it's still there today, but I remember that you could see remnants of the original side platforms east of the current station. The current station is a block or two west of the original Willets Pt. station, moved when it was re-built for the 1939-40 Worlds Fair. The north and center tracks are still in their original location; the south track (eastbound local) was moved to allow a (very wide) island platform between it and the center track.
-- Ed SAchs
I've seen the Manhattan-bound platform of this station. I think that there is at least 200 feet (approximately 5 IRT car lengths) of "extra" platform beyond the fence that is on that platform (it seperates the revenue service platorm and the extra platform.). On that section, there is what looks like an exit to 126th Street, Roosevelt Av & Willets Point Blvd. (The distance is based on two signals on that platform.) I think that that is part of the original platform.
I can't vouch for the exact distance, but you are correct, that is part of the original platform. The staircase is intact; since it is fully enclosed, it is used as a storage area. When I was in there about a year-and-a-half ago it was full of paint.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ground was broken for Shea Stadium in 1961, I believe. It was originally supposed to be ready in time for the 1963 season, but delays pushed the opening back one year, and the Mets wound up playing in the Polo Grounds for two years instead of one. Supposedly, the outfield fences were still being painted when the Mets played their first game at Shea on April 17, 1964.
Supposedly, the outfield fences were still being painted when the Mets played their first game at Shea on April 17, 1964.
I was at the first Shea Stadium game. The fences were painted. It was the bathrooms that did not work. :-)
Now it's time to envision riding to Willets Point station and disembarking for the third game of the 2000 World Series between our beloved Mets and whoever is unforl;tunate enough to have to play them. Come on Valentine, bring these guys home first. Yankees? They might be getting a mite old, but they would make a good victim.
Good for your dad. Is he still a Yankee fan or has he seen the light and become a Mets fan? Just kidding. Here's hoping your dad get to 100 and beyond.
Dad is still a Yankee Fan, even through moving to Brooklyn in 1950, and moving out to the Chicago area in 1997.
-- Ed Sachs
I have a Forgotten Fan posting me claiming that trolley tracks ran on Rockaway Parkway, and that the tracks in the ROW between 95th and 96th were affiliated with the LIRR, at least at some time. Is he right?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I don't think it was the LIRR per se, but the private railroad that ran the service from Atlantic Avenue/Van Sinderen down to Canarsie Pier. It later became part of the BRT and then reverted to NYCT after 1940.
Wayne
There was a trolley line on Rockaway Parkway, in addition to the private-of-way tracks which were originally part of the Canarsie railroad.
Probably the reason for the confusion was that after about 1920, El and Subway trains terminated at Rockaway Parkway and a shuttle service operated between there and the Canarsie terminal. Originally, El cars (equipped with trolley poles and trap stairs for the low-level platforms) were used for the shuttle service, but later on trolley cars were substituted. This was in addition to a trolley line which ran on Rockaway Parkway.
The shuttle service lasted until about 1950 when it was replaced by bus service along Rockaway Parkway.
-- Ed Sachs
Just yesterday I was looking at a picture of a Canarsie Shuttle trolley in the TMNY archives. Was the Canarsie Shuttle operated by B&QT?
Ed....The Canarsie Shuttle was discontinued in late 1942 while the Rockaway Pky line went under in April, 1951.
Carl M.
NO.
The problem is: some old (pre-1898) maps of Brooklyn erroneously credit the Canarsie ROW as being owend by the LIRR.
Yes, trolleys ran both down Rockaway Pkwy AND between 95th and 96th Streets.
Doug aka BMTman
That seems to be the definitive answer...
03/07/2000
I believe one of the names of this railroad was the East New York, Ca
narsie and Rockaway Beach. The long out of print book by William Fausser should clear up questions about this line. Unfortunately the book is now where to be found, unless you get lucky.
Bill Newkirk
I thought I heard on the radio that there was a fire at the Kew Gardens yard today.
I heard it was a brush fire off the GCP in that area.
That's right - I saw it when I was entering the Eastbound LIE from the Eastbound Grand Central. It appeared to be a brush fire.
There were brush fires on Friday and Sunday. Sundays was very big. I don't know if they are natural or arson
I've lived in the area for many years. These brush fires are
always man-made. Once there was a guy who just liked setting
them, finally someone else in the park saw him running from the
scene and he was arrested. The paintballers also like to use
the park as their battlefield and they aren't always too careful
with their cigarette (or other similar substances) butts.
There was a thread a while back about movable bridges in NYC. Well, NYCDOT has put together some pages on all the currently operating movable bridges operated by the city. They look ok, and they lack some info, and there are numerous grammatical and spelling errors, but it's an interesting section.
http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dot/html/bridges/index.html
-Hank
-
According to the Guardian on Saturday (UK reputable newspaper) the London Underground carried more passengers last year than at any time since records began (1934). On the other hand, the network is much larger now than before (Metropolitan Line country branches to the far NW of London excluded). For national railways however, the figures are far more impressive: More passengers than for any year since 1947, on a much smaller network now than then. Don't ask me why, travelling by train in the UK is pretty miserable at the moment.
Greetings all. This show premieres tonight at 8:00 and 11:00 pm. A section of the program will focus on the 63rd st extension. More information can be found on their website.
http://www.discovery.com/stories/technology/buildings/brdg_tunein.html
Anyone plan on taping it for those of us who are cable deprived?
--Mark
Thanks Paul ... I caught the 8 PM viewing, most was various ways that tunnels have been dug, e.g. blast, "mucking", drilling machine, etc.
but towards the end was some footage on 63rd Street dig and on the WMATA. The latter looked like filler as it didn't have too much to do with tunneling, e.g. interview with black/female T/O and how she liked her job ... she said she always wanted to be a T/O ever since she rode roller coasters as a child ... hum is that the kind of driver she is ?
Mr t__:^)
She is a railfan that gets paid to do it , but was afraid to publicly admit it. Go girl!
I know that the WMATA footage was probably filler, but I thought it was very neat nonetheless.
It had good shots of the trains, operating controls, stations, tunnels, railyards and maintenance crews. What more can you ask for? It had close ups of the doors (my favorite part of the train, to be honest). In the area of sounds, you could here all of sounds that characterize Metro: the "doors closing" announcement and chime, the sound of the train gliding into the station, the "woooosh..." of the brakes when the train stopped. They even had the most recognizable sound of all--the high-pitched whine of a departing train. All of this, combined with the T/O interview, made for a very interesting segment, even if it was a filler.
I wonder if that segment was written/produced/directed by a railfan? It seemed to place a large interest in the trains, much more so than the segment on the 63 St connector.
Very cool. :-)
Brandon Bostian
I think the seating was interesting, and the cars as well .
does anyone have more info on the seating, door and physical
attributes of these fine looking cars . and what stress are the put
under during rush or crush hour?
Sounds like one of the ones I rode with last month!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of the 63rd Street thing, I saw a two track line being dug out under the present IND 4 track ROW...I would like to know where the new 63rd Street twin track line rises up and merges with the present IND 4 track ROW...
The way I see the line up, the Crosstown IND (GG) will still have access to the Queens Blvd IND (E, F, GG, R)...so why are they gonna turn the GGs at Court Square?
What's gonna be the line up once the 63rd thing goes online? Q trains to 179? And weekend B trains to 179?? The Manhattan Bridge South Side will still be out when 63rd Street comes online, so forget about Broadway Q thru-Express service from Queens Blvd into 63rd, into Broadway BMT, to South Manhattan Bridge...
The G is stopping at Court Square because running five lines on Queens Blvd. would not be practical, unless you cut back the number of trains currently on the other lines, or limited the number to be used on the new 63rd St. line.
Right now, no one knows exactly what the lineup is going to be. It would seem to make the most sense to run the 63rd St. line as the G's replacement between 36th St. and Continental Ave. Until the Manny B gets fixed, you would expect the Q to take the G's place, but the MTA could decide to implement the talked-about V train service when the line opens.
Assuming, of course, they have enough trains to even start running the 63rd St. service any time soon.
But, the actual physical track link between the Crosstown IND (GG) and the Queens Blvd IND (E, F, GG, R) will remain in place or be severed?
Al
To my Dago Piasan in SI: That's a great handle. I'm a proud Dago from California, but I go under the above mentioned title. Are you Sicilian? And why doesn't Staten Island get their own subway system? I always believed that the 4th Avenue local (R) could have been extended across the river to Staten Island but it never was. Do you have a favorite train like I do? Let me know. I just dig your title.
The physical link will remain in place for emergency reroutes, equipment transfers, etc.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This connection is being used now for Manhattan(To Coney island) F trains which are running via the G line. It is nice to have double service on the G but boy will they gripe when the F leaves the G! Often times if there is a disruption they'll send F trains over the G Line.
PIGPOSAL:
This question has been asked so many times, that I suggest that NOBODY answers. If I had the power, each message posted on this topic will be deleted. Otherwise, I pigpose that EVERYBODY who posts asking when the Manhattan Bridge will re-open, what the 63st plan will be and when the R-142s will be in service, that the poster be eggscommunicated from SubTalk.
Thankfully, you don't have the power. No need to be rude and sarcastic. I am merely asking a question about the future of the IND in Queens. So it has been asked before, however it is the first time *I* have asked it. No one else seems to mind.
If you have seen previous responses, others DO seem to mind. There have been whole threads complaining about this consistent and annoying question. The answer: NOBODY KNOWS! Why don't you stop asking your stupid questions.
Alright Pigs, you've made your point, no need to berate people.
-Dave
Sai it Paul. It looked a lot like my old neighborhood in Queens where I lived until I was 14. I saw some of this excavation last summer during many of my runs when I visited New York. To build a new tunnel on top of an exisiting subway tunnel is fascinating to say the least. And so much of this was being done with muscle and straight down digging. Those guys on the job certainly earn their pay. I wonder how many of those snobby limo liberals of the Upper West Side saw this piece. I doubt if many did. A great show.
I'm about 10 mins by car from the excavation. Alot has changed from the show. Northern Blvd has been covered up and repaved. A building has been built on the westbound side which looks like a ventilation building, but I'm not sure on this. But yes, a great show.
Since the same questions about the R142 keep coming up, perhaps this is a good update on the R142 FAQ page: The first cars have been delivered by kawasaki and Bombardier, and are going under extensive testing by the MTA. As early as mid April, but most likely in May or June, the first revenue test train will begin service.
This train will be in servie nearly 24 hours a day, and is on a 30-day test period. But the clock resets everytime there is a problem with the new trains, so this test could last a bit longer than that. But once it's completed, 30 to 40 cars will arrive each month, and will be found on the 2, 5 and 6 lines; hopefully by mid to late summer.
The redbirds will begin replacement as the R142's come in. However, even once the current order is completed, 470 redbirds will remain in service until the option order comes in in 2002 at the earliest. The #7 line will probably have all redbirds, probably followed by R62's after the option order comes in as well.
Well, hopefully that sums up the recent events. Now I realize not everyone reads the FAQ, but hopefully this will help for those who do, and just maybe help prevent the same question being asked over and over. -Nick
I still think the TA will keep some redbirds past 2002 in case it wants to increase service. I think they've learned their lesson when they retired the R30 too hastily.
Thanks, I updated it.
I'm working on a way to edit the faq online- would people be interested in an "adopt a FAQ entry" type thing?
-Dave
Sure, I'll take one or two.
Another idea Dave -- for select items that repeatedly get asked on SubTalk, would it make sense to have a direct link adjacent to the "Post a New Message" line, such as:
Update on R-142s
The Latest on 63rd Street Routings
Maybe this will cut down on new people asking the same things over and over and over!
I'll gladly write an R16 FAQ, but I dont think anyone would read it...
Maybe not a FAQ entry but it might make a perfect addition to the R16 roster page. What do you think?
Maybe Mr. R10 and Mr. Slant-40 could do the same :-)
-dave
Oh heck, we'll read it, if only for the entertainment value :-)
Seriously, go for it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would. The R-16s provided a colorful chapter in the history of the NYC subway system. They were anything but dull. In a way, I actually regret not having ridden on them more than twice.
Sure would!
--Mark
I'll take the glossary, since I wrote the thing in the first place. For those who want to see it in its current condition, go to home.att.net/~alabianca . Feel free to comment, as well as read my personal rant on How to Ride the Subway.
You might want to add a blurb on marker lights, even though they're not used anymore. For years, that was THE way to identify a train as it pulled into a station.
I actually liked the How to Ride the Subway section. Almost everything there is just plain old common sense.
Dave, This sounds like an excelent way to lighten your load and get a number of us involved with helping maintain this site with current data. I'ld be happy to take a couple of items ... fares, MetroCard flavors come to mind.
Mr t__:^)
No problem, Dave...always happy to help, even if only in small ways. I like Todd's idea of maybe having some links at the top of subtalk that are relevant right now...perhaps subtalk could do an R142 test of its own!! LOL -Nick
In today's "Big Town Chronicles" (page 13) section of the Daily News, there's an interesting article on how our least favorite, BMT-killing former mayor Hylan tried to sell off various parts of Central Park to developers. Hylan was quoted as saying that Central Park was "eyesore, full of jagged hills and shapeless rocks". Despite virulent opposition, he continued his attempts to sell the park off.
This guy was a major fruitcake. How'd he ever get elected?
[Hylan] was a major fruitcake. How'd he ever get elected?
He had the support of William Randolph Hearst and his newspapers. And, despite the fact that he was apparently not a personally flamboyant man, he had a good eye for demagoguery, making the five cent fare and bashing the "traction interests" his hallmark.
His classic Tammany administration followed on the heels of the decent reformer John Purroy Mitchell. Among other things, Mitchell got himself in trouble with the important Irish and German voting blocs in the City by being outspokenly in favor of intervening in World War I on the side of the Allies.
So the 1917 mayoral election was heavily steeped in demagogic appeals, the setting up of unpopular straw men to attack, and appeals to ethnic groups.
Not at all like today.
[So the 1917 mayoral election was heavily steeped in demagogic appeals, the setting up of unpopular straw men to attack, and
appeals to ethnic groups.
Not at all like today.]
I'm assuming that last line was sarcastic :-)
This guy seemed to be even more stubborn and intransigent than Rudy Guiliani. I thought that was impossible.
Well, Rudy didn't get canned by the BRT for reading his law texts while operating an el train either....
At least Hylan actually saw the inside of a train on a regular basis.
Rudy once stated, for the record, that he'd used the subway system only one time in his life (to take his son to Yankee Stadium), and that he was very upset with himself for having sunk so low that one time.
His classic Tammany administration followed on the heels of the decent reformer John Purroy Mitchell.
Mitchel's lasting achievement was to bring Robert Moses into New York City government.
Mitchell got himself in trouble with the important Irish and German voting blocs in the City by being outspokenly in favor of intervening in World War I on the side of the Allies.
Mitchel volunteered for duty, following his defeat in 1917 and got himself killed in action.
Robert Moses may have been one of the most destructive morons in U.S. history but at least Mitchell put his money where his mouth was.
While I agree Moses was a power-obsessed idiot, his contribution to the road and bridge network this city now sports was immense. Unfortunatly, it came at the expense of rapid transit.
You call that a contribution?
Yeah. Try driving around without no Riverside Drive, FDR, LIE, Verazzano Bridge, GCP, etc.
Yeah, I guess you're right, if Moses hadn't designed the facilities which allowed NY City to enter the automotive age along with the rest of America, the City would not have progressed for most of the 20th century.
I assume you prefer the stagnation we have now? At least in the Moses era, things other than welfare offices and public hospitals were built.
Yesterday at about 3:00 pm there was some sort of fire at the Jamiaca yard. I was able to see about 10 fire trucks on the GCP side of the yard. there was some soke coming over the trees but i counldn't tell what was burning. does anyone have any info?
I heard there was a brush fire right outside the yard, but I'm not sure if the fire did any damage to the Jamaica yard's facilities or trains.
Last week, I rode the Q train and it was composed of slant
R-40s. But I was surprised to see R-32s on the Q line also. Are they
being borrowed from other lines? Which other lines had occassional
R-32s running on them?
Which lines did the R-32s run on througout their careers before
they got rebuilt in 1988-1989? Which lines will they go to when the
63rd Street Connection opens? Why did the E, G and R switch the R-32s
and R-46s in the early 1990s? These lines are 24-hour lines, not like
the Q which switched the R-40s and R-68s with the B in November 1997
to allow the R-40s to get some rest when the Q is not running.
The R32s ("Brightliners"), when brand new, ran from 1965 until 1967 on the M, N, Q, T, TT (and occasional QT), that is Brighton Special Express, Sea Beach Express, Brighton Express, West End Express, and West End Local (and occasional Brighton Local). In 1967 most went to the B and D (and AA in non-rush), until the early 1970s. After that, I am not sure how they were assigned.
Well that is a sight for sore eyes. I saw the samne thing during the time we go snowed on back in january 2000. During the fall there were a couple R40m s on the Q as well. I belive that since they are very few on the Q (possibbly only 1) it could be borrowed from another line . The N line maybe
How would an r40m get there
The R40M's were on the Q line during the Willamsburg Bridge Closing I guess was that these cars were part of the J,M,Z lines but because they running on a reduced schedule at the time some of the rush hour M , maybe some J cars were left at the Coney Island yard as well. I don't see any on th Q line since the bridge opened
Coney Island Yard supplies the cars. R32's are in CIYD. Perhaps the Q line needed a train to take the place of a defective one and an R32 was all that was availiable.
I still would like to know why the E, G and R switch
the R-32s and R-46s in the early 1990s. I remember when the E
and F trains were mostly R-46s until the R-32s appeared on the
E line. I'm also surprised to see occassional G and R trains
of R-32s.
Although there are many exeptions, r32s make up the E the r46s make up the f,g,r.
Lately, the R line has more R32's and the E'has more R46's. I wish they'd just leave each line with one car type exclusively.
One of the main reasons, I believe, for the switch of R-46s to R-32s on the "E" line was the additional 8 doors (R-46, 8 cars 32 doors/R-32, 10 cars 40 doors). Thereby decreasing dwell time.
Peace,
Andee
Originally assigned to the BMT Southern Division in 1964-65, the R-32s over the years have run on virtually every IND and BMT route you can think of. Because of their sheer numbers, they were never assigned exclusively to one route at any given time. I personally think of the N whenever the R-32s come to mind, partly because of their close association with that line, and partly because the very first subway train I ever rode on was an N of shiny new R-32s.
Have they run on the j/z line?
Before their GOH, the J yes. the Z no.
If the line is not significant i.e.popular the TA will start useing older cars on that line
I only saw an R-32 on the 'J' once, in September 1984. As far as other Eastern Division lines, I saw once on the 'L' in May 1984, and numerous times on the 'M' in 1978-79.
As other posters have said, the workhorse R-32s have run on all virtually all Division B trackage.
There was a pre-GOH set of R32's running on the J in January and February of 1989. Other than that, I've never seen them on the J. They were on the M line for a while in 1987 (covered in grafitti).
Can anyone verify if the R-32s ever ran on any of the short-lived routes immediately after the Chrystie St. connection opened (JJ, NX, RJ)? I have a hunch that R-27/30s were used exclusively on the RJ and JJ (possibly along with BMT standards) as well as the NX just before it was discontinued. Oh and how about the HH? Were there ever any R-32 sightings there?
All pictures I've seen of both the NX and RJ show them using either R16's or R27 cars. I did see some R32's on the H line in the mid 1980's.
That would be quite a trick. The 'H' designation disappeared by 1976 when the 'C' started running to Rockaway Park. The 'C' did run R-32s the whole time it went to Rockaway Park, from September 1976 through October 1992 when it was cut back to Euclid.
During those sixteen years, the 'C' could be made up of R-10s (till 1989) or R-27-30s (first sighted by me in March 1987), with the occasional Slant or R-46 making a cameo appearance.
The R-46s ran on the CC in 1980 in an effort to reduce their running hours due to the truck cracking problem which surfaced at that time. It resulted in scrambled car assignments, with equipment going anywhere and everywhere.
Actually, the "HH" designation disappeared in 1976. In 1985, when all double letters were removed, the former Rockaway Park shuttle (which ran to Euclid during non rush hours and was signed as a "CC") was relettered as the H. This line was almost exclusively serviced by green R10's until 1989, when it was then made up of R32's. The "H" line was reduced to weekend only service after the C line was expanded from rush hour only service on 12/12/88. It disappeared in 10/92, when Rockaway service was reconfigured.
BTW, on my 10/92 map, it shows that A rush hour specials from Rockaway Park terminated at59th St/Columbus Crcle, but I never saw a single scheduled train terminate here.
Having worked in the area of 59th St for several years a number of Rock Pk "A"s southbound start in the afternoon . They come down CPW empty, and 59th is the first loadind point. Would that qualify as a terminal being its a starting point? I think it's every third "A" is a vacant Rock PK. Perhaps a more knowledgeble source will jump in here.I think the first is about 16:18 .
There are five such runs each way. You can see the schedule on the NYCTA Web site. You were only off by a minute! The schedule says it's 16:19.
I find it very interesting that the schedule shows this as the "A Diamond" service. Too bad the trains can't.
Too bad they can't use the "H" to designate this service.
When last I saw the "H", as I previously mentioned, it was of R10s, and #2974 was its operating motor. The bulkhead signs at either end of this train were post-GOH (the train itself was Bottle Green) types and it was a blue bullet with a white "H".
Wayne
I believe that they call these trains "put ins" and they originate from the turnaround/siding just north of 72nd. Correct me if I am wrong.
Peace,
Andee
I think they originate from the 168th St yard. The Rockaway Park special A trains terminate and go OOS at this station.
There are also put-ins in the PM on the F line. Every other Queens-bound F train is actually not put into service until it gets to Jay St. These trains come out of the Ave. X yard and run up the express tracks all the way to Jay St., although with the Bergen St. interlocking still affected by fire of 4/99, these trains switch to the local track north of 4th Ave.
Never seen R32 run J line just R40M and R42 until they are retired. If an R32/38 was seen on this line will probley mean it was pressed into service to make up for a train taken out of service due to failure
Never seen an R38 anywhere on the eastern division, but that doesn't mean they have never run there. Since 1990, when the redbird R30's were transferred over to the C line, the J has been exclusively R40M/42.
I saw an R16 on the "JJ" once, and a BMT Standard on the "KK" once as well. Between 1969 and 1973 I saw a number of R32s onthe "QJ", but the predominant car was the R27/R30. R42s also ran on the "QJ", along with R-7A and R-9.
Wayne
I would have loved to have seen the standard on the KK at a 6th Av station. It had to look very out of place. At that time the standards were basically only on the 14th St Canarsie Line.
It WAS - northbound, at Broadway-Lafayette. It was very, very decrepit. Most of the cars had no signs, but some that did said "B'way-B'klyn L'c'l". I THINK one said "57th Street"-something.
These were the car #s according to the Grey Book.
Spotted on November 29, 1968:
KK: AB Type:
#2424, #2403, #2694, #2610, #2459, #2645.
Wayne
I never saw any R-32s on the QJ, but did see and ride on R-27/30s, R-42s, and on one or two occasions, R-7/9s. Rode on a JJ of R-27/30s once, in March of 1968. There are photos of R-16s on the QJ with a full compliment of bulkhead signs: QJ/168th St. Jamaica.
The KK never saw any R-32s, did it?
I don't think so. The R7-9 cars ruled this line, with the exception of the occasional R42.
You mean - VERY occasional R42. I think just ONE consist of R42s were ever run on the "KK". #4918-4919 was one of these.
There's a picture in the Illustrated Subway Car roster of an R27 at 57th Street-6th Avenue signed up as "KK". I would bet that this was the one and only time these cars ever ran on the "KK". Never saw any of THEM - but did see plenty of R-7A and R-9 stuff, and, of course the token R42 once in a blue moon.
An aside to the above re. R27 - there's a subscript "Nassau St" under the "KK", which is what I believe the "KK" was originally supposed to be - the AM version of the #14.
Wayne
The R-32s also had a "KK/Nassau St." bulkhead route sign on their original curtains.
I think the HH was entirely R1-9's.
This website contains pics of HH trains made up of R32, R38 and R10 cars as well.
More accurately they would be R-6 (the most common), with a few R-4s and R-7s thrown in. In other words, leftovers from the "E".
I show at least one R38 and one Slant R40 (signed as "S") in "HH" service. Later, the R10 would take over. Last trip I made out there, as the "H", it was #2974 and her brood. This was in April of 1988.
Wayne
Have they run on the J/Z line?
R-32s have run on the J line, though I don't think they've run there since overhaul.
David
Does anybody have a copy of the official NYCTA Subway Map from 1972? The KK and QJ was there
Yes I have one as well as a 1969 Map.
-- David
Check "How it works"
It's time for another edition of Playing in the R-17 Muck, Chapter 3. It was a fabulous day. This was my second opportunity to get dirty in steel dust which makes SMEE cars so recognizable. It was a small crew of myself, Lou from Bklyn, Lou Shavell, the project's leader, and another gentlemen from the Museum. Thurston and Doug aka BMTman weren't around, and missed out on the festivities due to other engagements.
We were continuing to do what we know best, which was to attempt to remove as much of the steel dust as we could out of the R-17. Lou Shavell had to leave early, and another gentleman quickly filled in. The remainder of the rotating fans came down with much difficulty as we had trouble unscrewing the bolts from the ceiling. With from out chief mechanic, Jeff H., he cut the bolts off a machine capable of cutting thick objects. Jeff also performed some repairs to the supports that held up the fans. Unforuntately, we bent one of the fan covers trying to get that one troublesome assembly down, but it'll be fixed later. Due to a movie shoot, we had to work as soon as possible to get the car back together which in some ways didn't give us a chance to work on the ceiling thoroughly. The fans will come back down shortly, so we may our continue our efforts to clean them up and do any remaining work in the celing.
This is probably the dirtiest job I've ever engaged in. Fortunately, I wasn't hit with the muck as hard as previously. The worker of the day was Lou from Bklyn who spent endless hours working in the ceiling. He managed to do a great job in cleaning the ceiling while getting hit with all that stuff. I didn't go exactly free form the dirt. Each of us got the stuff in our noses. Ugh! Dirt really isn't man's best friend.
The fans went back up and we attempted to do some cleanup on the car. Then the unthinkable happened. Lou from Bklyn, was able to get Jeff to act as our pilot for the day and take our blessed SMEE car out of the shop. Down the line we went, in the thick of the night, taking in all that wonderful CT air and riding with nothing more than emergency lights. Actually, they were ready to ride completely submerged in darkness, but I wanted to see my way around the car, so I made the pilot (Jeff) put the emergency lights on. Each of us got an opportunity to operate and it was a great night. No day would be complete without getting to throw the switch for our car and to get two streetcars around the yard, one of which I got to manuever as a qualified operator. ConnCo woodys rule at BERA.
That was basically it. I did my bit to bring this car nearer to finishing our project. Completion will come in the near future. I think that I'd like to return to stripping the paint off the car so we may conclude our work on the car exterior by giving painting up 6688.
Isn't it great to have the best of both worlds? NYC Subway technology and the scenics of a ConnCo trolley route? It's an interesting combination!
Until Next Time,
Stef
As the Coal Miner in the the roof of 6688, I'm still sneezing black gunk out. It was a pleasure to run 6688 under Jeff H's pilotship even though I dumped her just trying to get indication (well things were backwards, this is the frist time I operated on that side of the car >G< Good excuse??).
Brandford is wonderful in the night, just having the rear storm door open holding the pole rope with the ocean air as Stef but 6688 through her paces was great relief to the black gunk work.
I must say seems to me Stef knows his stuff bringing in the ConnCo. But then I get my copy of the rulebook next Saturday at the start of operator training.
So tell me, did 6688 take off like a bullet down the track? That story of a few years back is still etched in my memory.
Of course. However, on this day the car only ran a short stretch due to the fact we were backpoling (trolley pole in reverse of normal operation) with the car.
-Stef
Now now Steve are you trying to get us in trouble with the mngt. ?
Seriously all of us that have had the privilege of pulling the handle a time or two are very responsible folks. Most of the time we just go along for the ride with one of the qualified operators. The heavy RT cars can use up the rails & ties fast if we hot dog down the line, so we take it easy over the switches and on the curves and hills ... however there's ample room for full power on the streight stretches. That's the nice part of this line, i.e. it's long enough and has several different operating conditions that you get the feeling of an authentic operation. We also DON'T come into the stations with "authority". The trick is to glide (not crawl) into the station/platform for a smooth stop (don't have to add power or jam on the brakes).
Mr t__:^)
The story I heard a few years back was that someone wrapped the controller on 6688 on the mainline, and it took off like a bullet. I realize that subway cars can be tough on the track, since it's more suited for streetcars, not to mention running up the electric bill. And, no, you certainly wouldn't want to imitate a train of R-10s roaring into 42nd St. on the southbound express track. 1689 took the rails at a nice, leisurely pace back in 1980, bull and pinion gears groaning away. Of course, we were driving Eddie crazy with the highball buzzer, and I gave the doors a good workout.
When the R-17 passes the barns she is closest to the juice, but there are a lot of switches there, plus folks can walk out from between buildings, so you have to keep the speed down, however on my turn at the handle she was at full power before and after the curve on the way to Short Beach. The streight track is in pritty good shape so our instructor doesn't have a problem allowing this. Typically the qualified operators give them all they'll take on the streight track and this is part of the joy of just going for a ride in the El Gate car, the R-9, the PCC or even the Lo-V and Hi-V. The latter two old girls take a little longer to get up to speed but are still able to rustle a few leaves as they go down the line AND they make such nice noises as they do.
BTW, We have blow the main circuit breaker on NY Days when the PCC and one of the subway cars and a trolley are moving at the same time. But that's part of the fun of running the RxR.
Mr t__:^)
I ws laboring under the delusion that Friday, March 24 would be the last day of the old PCCs on the Newark City Subway. Keeping this in mind, I thought Monday, February 21, Washington's Birthday, would be a good day to take the boy, but I didn't want to waste a trip to Newark. Washington's birthday is one of those odd days where you get more service than a weekend, but somewhat less than full weekday service. I E-mailed NJ Transit with a simple yes-or-no question: "Is the Newark City Subway running on Monday, February 21?" The response I got was that it would be running on a "holiday schedule". Since this didn't answer my question at all, ('Holiday' means 'weekend' to me) I didn't take a chance.
On Wednesday the 23rd I took a mental health day and set out for Newark myself for a solo 'last hurrah'. I struck up a conversation with the operator, who informed me that the new cars probably wouldn't be in place till the summer due to delays in construction- cold weather and the like. There was still heavy construction at the Franklin loop, and it looked like a new trackway was being laid slightly to the east of the current one at Orange Street.
We both agreed that NJ Transit's customer service department is a bit wanting in communication. The fact that the toll-free phone number only works IN New Jersey, and if you're calling from out of state, you have to call long distance, doesn't help either. Seems to me it should be the other way around.
The good news is it looks like we'll get a chance to ride on the next school holidays, Passover and Good Friday.
Now, will the Hudson light rail be ready on March 25 as promised?
I too made a "Last Days of the Newark PCCs" trip, on Feb 24. I had the day off work, and it was a beautiful day. I was able to take 2 rolls of photos. I was fortunate in that they even had 2 work-cars on the line that day: Number 16, which looks like a regular passenger car on the outside, and a red "Special," Numbered 5223. I also got some great shots of some of the WPA murals, and also the old Pennsy right-of-way from the "railfan" window of the PATH train (I came from Manhattan.) I wasn't bold enough to chat with the operator. (I always get the impression they don't want to be bothered.)
I'm still wondering when and why the trolley poles were replaced by the pantographs. In the City Subway photo on the NJT website, the trolley pole appears in use. Also, I'm sure trolley museums around N. America are eager to obtain the cars once they're replaced. Has anyone heard anything about that?
According to well-placed sources most of the fleet will be headed for San Francisco where they will see continued service. Three of the twenty remaining cars will remain in the east and one (committed to San Francisco and diverted by their agreement) will return to Minneapolis-St. Paul where it originally ran.
The change to pantographs was necessitated by the change from trolley wire to catenary in preparation for the new light rail vehicles. This changeover was made last summer - August, IIRC. I last rode the line in June when the poles were still in use.
Would you be willing to scan your photos and submit them to Dave for posting on this site? The work cars and the murals sound especially interesting.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Minneapolis already has two cars (3 & 27) obtained from Newark via Shaker Heights. These are under restoration by the museum up there. Wonder why they want a third.
I will check further on the SF rumour. My SF sources at Geneva Carhouse have already told me that Muni doesn't want GE equipped cars, as they are impossible to maintain because of the parts situation, and they need these cars to be reliable now and in the future.
Stranger things have happened though.
Newark is the only one still operating GE PCC's. The remaining surplus SEPTA cars are also GE powered. Buffalo has 12 rusty ex-Minn. SHRT cars, plus parts, that they aren't parting with either. Boston's cars are WABCo. BTW - The largest repository of US PCC cars right now is in Ed Metka's yard in PA (58+ cars, plus parts).
Boston's cars are WABCo.
You mean Westinghouse {Electric Manufacturing Co.}
Submitted the photos to Dave tonite. Most aren't much different from what's already on the site, but there are good shots of the work cars and 3 decent shots of the wall murals. Those pantographs still weird me out a bit, tho! :)
ENJOY - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Strip/1871/letter_rocker.html
I agree with the letter, both in concept and in content. However, don't expect it to get anywhere.
The whole Rocker incident was a transparent and well-orchestrated publicity stunt, arranged jointly by the Braves AND the Mets solely to whip up some home-town pride in both cities. Notice how Rocker "knew" exactly which ethnicities and languages to include in his diatribe and which to exclude. (And OF COURSE you'll hear people in Times Square speaking every language - they're all TOURISTS!!)
It was a move worthy of the World Wrestling Federation, complete with a "fine" and a "punishment." Clearly the "discipinary action" is a total fiction, and each team contributed something toward his "fine," as payment for services rendered in full.
Will they pay for his medical bills after he is knocked unconsious by a barrage of pretzles.
When I came to town with my friend on Saturday he absent-mindedly wore his Braves jacket. A civic-minded man on the 1 told my friend he may want to remove his jacket, with all that happened.
He quickly complied and kept the jacket off until we were well on our back to Philadelphia.
I'm one of those people who thinks that while Rocker might be a racist ass hole, he is entitled to his own opinion and should not have been suspended. I also think that his comments sprang from a general dislike of New York City and its environs, and on this issue I can see his point. However he failed to realize that New York isn't bad because its full of minorities, its bad because its full of New Yorkers (j/k...a little). Anyway, I also feel that his suspention should not have been recuced. THis is not because I wanted him punished or anything, it was because his first game back would have been against the Phillies at the Vet. The fans down here have been saving their batteries all during the post season to give him a taste of "brotherly love." Ah, who can forget opening day 1998 with the Mets and the commeritive magnets (it was rather bad form to come back and win after your fans pelted you with magnets), and opening day 1999 ie High School Student day, aka. vendors serve beer to High School Students day or, more importantly, drunk students from rival schools brawl in stands day. Needless to say, I can't wait for opening day 2000.
I wonder if Rocker has been "Bermanized" yet.-)
I was looking at a 1959 brochure announcing skip-stop service along the #14 and #15 BMT Jamaica line between 168th Street in Jamaica and Eastern Parkway. (http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/jamskip.htm)
This pattern is similar to today's J/Z service along that line, but with one interesting difference: in 1959, the Woodhaven Blvd. stop was not among the stops made by both trains. According to this brochure, both the #14 and #15 made stops at Sutphin Blvd., Elderts Lane, and Eastern Pkwy. Today, both the J and Z stop at Sutphin/Archer, Woodhaven Blvd., Crescent St., and Eastern Pkwy.
(Another difference seems to be that the #14 and #15 evidently resumed a standard "local/express" relationship after Eastern Parkway, whereas today's J/Z skip-stop format prevails all the way out to Myrtle Avenue.)
The fact that both the #14 and #15 trains did not stop at the Woodhaven Blvd. station would seem to indicate that, back then, the street itself was not considered to be the major thoroughfare that it is thought of as today.
This is a little surprising, given the extreme width of Woodhaven Blvd., as well as its current status as the main street of several neighborhoods.
Also, it always struck me pretty strange that the Queens Blvd. line does not have an express stop at Woodhaven Blvd. You'd think that such a huge intersection of two mighty boulevards would rate an express stop.
But, the fact that there is no express stop there supports the theory that, at one time, Woodhaven Blvd. was not considered an important street.
A further piece of evidence that Woodhaven Blvd. just didn't qualify in people's minds as a major street in decades past is the fact that the stop which is located at Woodhaven Blvd. along the former BMT Liberty Avenue el and the current A train is not called by the Woodhaven Blvd. name at all, but instead by the name "Rockaway Blvd."
So, the questions this raises are:
- when did people begin to consider Woodhaven Blvd. a major street? (I imagine that Karl M. would have some interesting insights here.)
- it was easy to upgrade the Woodhaven Blvd. stop on the Jamaica el to serve both the J and Z, simply by changing the skip-stop pattern; but could the Woodhaven Blvd. stop on the Queens Blvd. line be converted into an express stop? Would the riders of those lines want this?
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. -- While I am still thinking about this "local/express" issue: why is 74th St/Broadway not an express stop on the 7? Was this always the case? I think I remember that Woodside was *not* an express stop for a while, but now it is. Did they bump 74th St. as an express stop in order to include Woodside?
[The fact that both the #14 and #15 trains did not stop at the Woodhaven Blvd. station would seem to indicate that, back then, the
street itself was not considered to be the major thoroughfare that it is thought of as today.
This is a little surprising, given the extreme width of Woodhaven Blvd., as well as its current status as the main street of several
neighborhoods.
Also, it always struck me pretty strange that the Queens Blvd. line does not have an express stop at Woodhaven Blvd. You'd think that such a huge intersection of two mighty boulevards would rate an express stop.
But, the fact that there is no express stop there supports the theory that, at one time, Woodhaven Blvd. was not considered an important street.]
Check out www.forgotten-ny.com under "Street Scenes," and look for the section on Woodhaven Boulevard. As you suspect, Woodhaven Boulevard was not a major throughfare until the 1930's.
Check out NYC resources, IND Queens Blvd line. It has nice info on each station ,chech Woodhaven BLVD.
My grandmother told me that property owners on the old Woodhaven Blvd. were forced into selling out so the city could expand the road. Many were bitter about it until the day they died.
The station while it is a local has bellmouths at each approach to allow for conversion into an express station=- The tunnel widens before entering the station and the wide area ends at the bellmouth.
The layout appears to be designed as two island platforms. I do not know if there is more platform behind the walls, an empty space or just earth. I also do not know what would be done with the xcurrent express tracks if the station were converted to express.
The Flushing line was built through Jackson Heights by 1918. The IND Queens Boulevard line was built through Jackson Heights by 1933. Between those years, the 74th Street/Broadway was pretty much a neighborhood local stop. Not only was there no IND to transfer to, but no LaGuardia Airport to catch a bus to. Hence, no reason for it to have been an express stop. A lot of people ASSUME it is, because of the current transfer- and you know what happens when you ASSUME.
The IND stop below it, of course, is express because by the time the line came through, the Flushing line had preceded it by fifteen years.
Woodside rated being an express stop in 1918 because of the connection to the LIRR.
Similarly, the Columbus Circle station on the IRT line (1904) is local, but the newer station downstairs on the IND (1932) is express.
A strange reversal of this situation is at Yankee Stadium, where the newer IND Concourse line is a local stop. One would think that the connection to the IRT and the stadium, which predated the IND by several years, would have made it an express stop. I hate to think how many people headed for weeknight ball games end up at Tremont Avenue.
It was relatively easy to covert 59th/Lex into an express stop because the local and express tracks ran on different levels. It was just a matter of adding new platforms and stairways. To convert most other stops would be much too expensive. Side platforms would have to be replaced to island platforms, tracks would have to be realigned- just not worth the trouble and cost.
When the Fulton el reached Queens in 1916 (?), neither Woodhaven nor Cross Bay Boulevard existed yet. They're said to have been WPA projects, like the Belt System, Francis Lewis Boulevard and other large, divided arteries. That's why the station at the intersection of those boulevards and Liberty Avenue is named for Rockaway Boulevard and not the two better-known ones.
> I hate to think how many people headed for weeknight ball
> games end up at Tremont Avenue.
Well the few times I've gone up there for a weekday night game, they run the Bronx-bound D trains locally to accommodate the Yankee fans...
-Dave
[Similarly (as a result of subsequent area development), the Columbus Circle station on the IRT line (1904) is local, but the newer station downstairs on the IND (1932) is express.]
Yet the IRT has express stops at 72nd and 96th - weren't those areas even less developed than Columbus Circle 100 years ago?
96 St is an express stop by virtue of being the first (last) station before the B'way local and Lenox Ave local come together (seperate).
72 St happens to be a double-wide street (ie, two-way traffic) which lies midway between its neighboring express stops of 42 and 96 (one double-wide between 42 and 72 - 57 and one between 72 and 96 - 86), as well as an intersection of B'way (with Amsterdam), and being reasonably close to the big apartment buildings on CPW, like the Dakota, and to New York Central West Side Yard.
79th is also double-wide.
But 79 St doesn't go across the whole of the West Side, thereby knocking it out of contention.
[Why is 74th St/Broadway not an express stop on the 7? Was this always the case?]
When the IRT line was built, the IND line wasn't, so there was no need to make 74 St a local/express station.
[it always struck me pretty strange that the Queens Blvd. line does not have an express stop at Woodhaven Blvd. You'd think that such a huge intersection of two mighty boulevards would rate an express stop.]
The IND line built a provision to make Woodhaven Blvd a local/express stop. Why they haven't done it is beyond me.
What the MTA Should Do if They Ever Get the Money
1. Convert Woodhaven Blvd to a Local/Express stop, with the express tracks using the trackways of the existing local tracks.
The trackways currently used by D3 and D4 will be made into a line to connect with JFK Airport
2. Resurrect the World's Fair Line and extend it to La Guardia Airport
3. Extend the 31st Street Line to La Guardia Airport
More info to come.
[2. Resurrect the World's Fair Line and extend it to La Guardia Airport]
Isn't the VanWyck/ Whitestone Expressway built over the old ROW?
Yes, but my idea would build an elevated over the expressway.
BTW, I have more info. Click here to see it.
You left the best station (and probably one of the most intact) off of your "K" Line - Atlantic Avenue/Woodhaven Junction.
Shouldn't Ozone Park be 101st Avenue as opposed to Liberty Avenue?
Wayne
No more Aquaduct/No.Conduit Ave. station?
Woodhaven Blvd. was not the major thoroughfare it is today back when th J line was built. It was gradually expanded until it reached it's present width in the 1940's. Elderts Lane was always a common stop when they had skip-stop service (1959-1985) on the J line. In fact, Elderts Lane is the only station on Jamaica Ave thats 600' long. A bizzare feature which has puzzled me for years.
This pattern is similar to today's J/Z service along that line, but with one interesting difference: in 1959, the Woodhaven Blvd. stop was not among the stops made by both trains. According to this brochure, both the #14 and #15 made stops at Sutphin Blvd., Elderts Lane, and Eastern Pkwy. Today, both the J and Z stop at Sutphin/Archer, Woodhaven Blvd., Crescent St., and Eastern Pkwy.
Elderts Lane merited #14/#15 service because of Franklin Lane HS. It is an important stop for students exiting to go to school in the morning. Today's service may be more consistent geometrically. However, half the students from Queens have to take two trains instead of one.
Most students in Queens who are zoned for FK Lane HS go elsewhere, for obvious reasons. I did. But in 1959, you didn't have school choice in reguards to high school, so I'm guessing that's why Elderts Lane saw more students.
[Most students in Queens who are zoned for FK Lane HS go elsewhere, for obvious reasons. I did.]
_Newsweek_ just published a list of the country's 500 top public high schools. I guess there's no point in looking for Lane HS :-)
Um no. LOL. They did have a very good law program a ways back, but it's deteriorated badly.
We should be doing this on Off Subtalk, but anyway.
The list, as previously, does not take into account schools which admit more than half of their students by examination, in addition, I believe using AP exam rates to determine the ranking is highly suspect. The recent U.S. News rankings used average student household income as a factor in their ranks.
On the west side of Third ave and appx. 57-60 street in brooklyn there is an old brick warehouse. This building takes up one block on third ave and has an inscription on the front "BC RR company 1882. Any one out there have any idea what rr company this was and any history on it??
Brooklyn City Railroad, perhaps???
Actually, it probably stands for Brooklyn Central Railroad. As an active RR, I believe it didn't make it into the 20th Century.
Doug aka BMTman
03/06/2000
BCRR was the Brooklyn City Railroad.
That building was their trolley barn. I'm pretty sure Paul Matus and others may fill you in on the history.
Bill Newkirk
BCRR stands for Brooklyn City RR, one of the companies that eventually made up the BRT. The building was used as a carbarn apparently until 1947. I've never been in it, and I've always wondered if the tracks are still in there.
Yes, it stood for Brooklyn City RR. BCRR and the Atlantic Avenue Railroad were the two main constituent parts of what became the BRT.
I think the correct date on that building is 1892. I remember reading somewhere, that the building had 3 levels reached by the street, car elevators, a transfer table and held 800 cars!
The main office building of the BCRR is still standing- at the foot of old Fulton Street, across from Bargemusic.
Thanks for the reply. I"ve allways wondered what it was. Do you know where the right of way was for the building?
The main tracks were on 3rd Av, but there was also a 2 track line along 2nd. There were also single tracks along both side streets.
A little known fact, is that a major outdoor terminal with several loops was at the site of a little league field at 3rd Av & 64 St.
thanks for the info.!!!
I wanna know if anyone knows where I can get Straphanger designed New York City Subway lines besides Grand Central Museum annex and Canal Jeans? I have a F Train Shirt. Does anyone know if they made an E Train shirt? If so, can you please tell me where to get it? I know there has to be somewhere else besides those 2 stores, because neither store has the 7 Train shirt, but I have seen someone with a 7 Train shirt. Also a friend of mine(not a Railfan)has told me that a store has every subway line T-Shirt. Please tell me of any stores u may know in the 4 boroughs (other than staten Island)? please Email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com, or post a response. Thank you
I wanna know if anyone knows where I can get Straphanger designed New York City Subway lines besides Grand Central Museum annex and Canal Jeans? I have a F Train Shirt. Does anyone know if they made an E Train shirt? If so, can you please tell me where to get it? I know there has to be somewhere else besides those 2 stores, because neither store has the 7 Train shirt, but I have seen someone with a 7 Train shirt. Also a friend of mine(not a Railfan)has told me that a store has every subway line T-Shirt. Please tell me of any stores u may know in the 4 boroughs (other than staten Island)? please Email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com, or post a response. Thank you
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I wanna know if anyone knows where I can get Straphanger designed New York City Subway lines besides Grand Central Museum annex and Canal Jeans? I have a F Train Shirt. Does anyone know if they made an E Train shirt? If so, can you please tell me where to get it? I know there has to be somewhere else besides those 2 stores, because neither store has the 7 Train shirt, but I have seen someone with a 7 Train shirt. Also a friend of mine(not a Railfan)has told me that a store has every subway line T-Shirt. Please tell me of any stores u may know in the 4 boroughs (other than staten Island)? please Email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com, or post a response. Thank you
Why don't we wait until someone
OTHER than subwayman answer it's
own post...
I would like to know which types of IRT cars that are
today's redbirds operated on which lines before the 1986-1991
rehabilitation began. In other words, which cars operated on
the IRT lines when they arrived? (R-26, R-28, R-29, R-33 and
R-36 cars)
8570-8599, some 7800's, upper 9000's,& all 9100-9305, on the #6, 8600-8687, 7100's - 7400's on the #1 & 3, & sometimes some W.F. R36 cars, from 1976 on all R17's were on the #4, the #2 & #5 ran 7500's -7749 + 7750-7799 & some 7800's along with 7900's(R29) 8688-mid 9000's.
I would like to know why the IRT #2 and #5 lines switch
their redbirds in 1994-1996, just like when the B and Q lines
swicthed their cars in November 1997, to allow the R-40s to get
some rest when the Q is not running. I remember before 1994-
1996, the #2 line had the R-26s, R-28s, R-29s and occassional
R-33s, and the #5 line had the R-33s. Why were these redbirds
switched in 1994-1996? Which redbirds will be the first to
retired from service?
The R-33s seem to be in better shape than their older brethren. Since the 5 is reduced to a shuttle during the late hours while the 2 runs 24/7, the idea is the same as the B and Q equipment swap: use the older equipment on a part-time line.
As to which Redbirds will be retired first, chances are it will be the ones with the greatest amount of corrosion.
The condition of the ACF R26 and 28's on the #5 are pretty bad. Rust everywhere. Their almost at the end.
R26 are 1st to go. Then R28, R29, R33-36 MainLine then R33-36 World's Fair cars. Once WF cars go, it'll be official that all redbirds will be extinct! :( Get your pics now! I did!
R36Gary
About 2 weeks ago I received in the mail, Vol.2 2000, M.T.H. catelogue
in it is a Railking R-21 ,4 car set. From the pix, it looks neat.
M.S.R.P. $180-$299. Due date Nov. 2000.
I,d really like to see R1/R9's in new paint and tunnel crud.
Not all redbirds will disapear WF cars will be phased out in a mix with normal R33/R36 types WF cars are not just #7line mainstay. They are also on #2 and#6 lines and have been for a number of years. They will be phased out depending on how fast new equipment is put into actual service. Since new R142cars are going to be tested on the #2 line that line will most likely recieve the first order of the new 142s. When this happens some redbirds will be scapped others will be scatterd through the rest of the lines useing redbirds. It's a slow elimination process My prediction is the very last redbirds will be on the #5 dyer ave line
That's what I figured. As I recall, back in 1987, the last old cars of R-17s, R-21s, and R-22s were put here and eventually phased out. Even pre-GOH R-33s spent their last days in graffiti white before being painted red. Is the line traditionally the last line with old equipment? It sure seems that way.
-Stef
Hi stef I that's the way TA will do the phase out process they use a line whicn is not to signifigant in other words not widly used like the #2line until it reaches a certin point. that is most likly why they keep the line in service or they would have cut it by now. The line is not widely used from 180th st through the bronx but turns revenue going downtown making it physiable to keep the line in service therfore reciving all older equipment before they are retired like it was with 3rd ave EL
I see your point. A line not subject to widespread use by passengers (lightly used) is subject to receiving what's left of the old equipment.
However, that may not be the case since the yard at E180th St was rebuilt to handle the new cars. It sounds like the 5 is getting at least some of the new cars, unless politics dictates otherwise.
-Stef
I live near the #5 route above East 180th Street and the line does in fact get quite crowded during rush hours.
Off peak hours is a different story. What may end up happening is that the R142 trains will be running during the rush hour. This is what appears to be happening now. The two R-62A trains that the 5 acquired are only used during the morning and evening rush hours. Other times they can be spotted parked in the E180th/Unionport yard.
In fact, the #5 didn't have any of the "newer" subway cars until a year or so ago.
When the R142 gets tested in actual passanger service, the test calls for 24 hour operation, to see how they handle the wear and tear. That would indicate their testing on the #2 line. My guess is that the R142's will first go onto the #2 line, bumping the R33's now on the #2 over to the 5, displacing the R26/28 cars, which should be the first to see the scrapyard.
Redbirds that are bumped off #2 line will get sent all over to other lines still using redbirds not just to #5 line
I would assume R33's on the 2 would get moved to the #5, so the oldest cars, the R26 and R28 can be scrapped first. The R33's are, for the most part, in better shape than the R26/28's.
Yes your right but sometimes older cars are in better shape then newer ones I see it with the buses they will scrap a 4000 rts before some of the 3000 series they have the maintance records of all repairs,breakedowns,etc and that's how they determine what stays and what goes
Isn't it true that common practice has been to trot out the oldest equipment for rush hour service? On the IND, the last remaining prewar cars ended their careers on the CC and rush hour E lines; the R-10s wound up on the CC as well. The Triplexes wound up on the West End, which by the 60s was essentially a rush hour service (R units covered that route on weekends). And supposedly, the last BMT standards ran on what is now the M, which at that time was also a rush hour route.
Yes. In the R16's last days (86-87), they ran only during rush hours on the B, R and J routes. Only on the M could you catch an R16 train after 10 AM or before 3:30 PM on a weekday.
That's what it seems like. I've noticed a pattern over the years. For argument sake, the last stand of the R-38s might be on the C. In theory, the old equipment should be relegated to a time period of the day when it would only be needed briefly. I can see a few trains of R33/36s being held for rush hour only service after all new cars are in service.
-Stef
That's why I suggested moving some of the `birds over to the B division and putting platform extenders on them for rush hour use on the Eastern Division. It would give them enough trains to open the 63rd Street connector possible later this year, instead of waiting until the R-143s arrive. The current extra R-40Ms/R-42s used for rush hour on the J/M/Z could be added onto the Q (V or whatever) service going via 63rd St. to Continental Ave. or 179th St.
Unless the rust is so bad the structural integrity of the cars is threatened, there's no reason not to use the existing R-26/28/29s another 12 to 18 months for rush-hour only service, which would help relieve some of the overcrowding on the BMT and IND faster than waiting for the new cars (headed for the Eastern Division L and M lines anyway)to arrive before moving some of the 40Ms and 42s over to handle the new Queens connector.
Again: by the time enough Redbirds can be freed up by the placement into service of R-142s and R-142As, the R-143s will be in (or at least VERY near) and the Redbirds won't be necessary on the BMT/IND.
David
Redbirds would never see IND/BMT service IRT saw to this back in early 1900s because they did not want IND/BMT trains on their tracks that,s why IRT cars are shorter and narrower
IRT cars are shorter and narrower because the Contract I IRT was built to the existing el specifications. The BMT was built to the larger commuter rail specs. The IRT used the smaller specs for 2 reasons. One was to prevent the subway tunnels from being used to haul freight around the city at night (this was before trucks did all this work). Parsons adamantly refused to allow "his" subway to be used to move freight. The other was to make the subways and existing IRT els compatable. The BMT used the larger specs to increase passanger capacity.
It's kind of ironic I think.
If they would have allowed freight to be carried around at night, especially when not too many trains are running, you would think the powers that be at the time would have seen it as a way to "lease" the tracks out during off-peak times to make up for the lost revenue from having dead tracks or to make a little extra money.
Of course, I'm not an expert in railroad business, so this is just my opinion.
03/12/2000
Aren't the R-62's due for a General Overhaul? If so then the #4 line will be short equipment, that's when surplus Redbirds will fill in until the fleet is overhauled.
Bill Newkirk
One more time:
NOTHING--NOTHING--NOTHING!!!!! is due for a General Overhaul, or ever will be again if the current philosophy holds. This current philosophy is called SMS, or Scheduled Maintenance System. Under SMS, components are replaced on a life-cycle basis at pre-programmed intervals.
David
The R62 will never need a GOH, as it's been well maintained since it's delivery. The large scale GOH's done on cars in the mid/late 1980's was only necessitated by the years of abuse and deferred maintenance they suffered through in the 60's and 70's.
03/13/2000
Okay I was wrong! Maybe not a general overhaul. but a general cleaning, repainting of end bonnets, a spruce up if you will. Who knows maybe even installation of AC traction motors. The R-32's, at least some of them will have a sort of an overhaul to extend their lives even further. The R-62's, despite their impressive track record, look beat to me. I believe floors are to be replaced and they sure can use it. But replacing components are only one facet in proper car maintenance. Appearance also counts.
Bill Newkirk
I don't think the last standards were on the "M". I think they had R-16's or cars like them. During the last years of the Myrtle I used to ride it alot to ride the "Q" cars. I don't ever recall the Standards on the Myrtle or the Bway El W/O Myrtle in the late 60's however they were the only trains on the Canarsie Line. I used to take the Myrtle to Wyckoff to change for the Standards on the LL, if they were on the "M" I just would have had to get off a "Q" car and wait for the next train!!
03/12/2000
Sarge,
Legend has it that the last run of the BMT Standards was on my birthday, August 4,1969 as a Myrtle-Chambers run. I have a Steve Zabel slide taken on the tower steps looking down on the train. Sad sight, the last run of the 67' cars that was the BMT. After the doors were closed, the train made the usual stops to Chambers St. and after Chambers ran light to Coney Island and it was all over.
Bill Newkirk
I'm sure you're right. They say the memory is the first thing to go!!!
And two months after that, the Q units and the Myrtle Ave. el said sayonara.
The R-7/9s began to appear on the LL in Jaunary of 1969. The first time I saw them there was on January 5. Naturally, that train was headed for 8th Ave. while we were on our way to Brooklyn on a train of BMT standards. Naturally, after that sighting, I always hoped to get a train of R-7/9s on the LL, but since time was of the essence in both directions, we didn't wait. I was already insisting on taking an A train from 42nd to 14th, and we had a few close calls because of that (being late for Saturday school).
It does seem the #5 gets the oldest equipment. The last pre-GOH redbirds (grafittied white back then) ran on the #5 in late 1987. The R17's and R21/22 cars mostly spent their last days on the #3 line. That line was a disgrace until the new R62A cars began taking over in spring 1987.
I just think that the #3 line turns more revenue then the #5 in turn will get the better equipment
I'm sure the #5 carries more passangers since it runs on the crowded East side IRT.
All together now (to the tune of Frosty the Snowman):
Rusty the Redbird
Was a jolly subway car.
Made of carbon steel with bulkhead signs
And a pair of marker lights...
OK, so I'm not a songwriter. Anyone else care to add to this?
Will they retire them one fleet at a time or will they retire them car by car
Probably car by car, although I'd assume the oldest (R26) class would be completely retired.
The R-26s will probably be the first ones to go, yes. This is pure speculation, but I would say the R-33s will still be around for a while.
New R142 will begin testing on #2line this year sometime There are now at least 5 new cars at 238st shop. They will oporate in an A,B,B,B,A fashion.meaning 1 cab car 3trailers and anothercab beleive testing is to start in june but TA always changes it's mind to many bosses. And the redbirds will be slowly phased out. All redbird fleet should be retired by 2005.
Last week, I took the IRT Lexingotn Avenue Line to
Grand Central and here's what I observed:
Corona R-36s on the IRT #6 Line.
239th Street Yard (#2 Line) R-33s on the IRT #6 Line.
What's going on? The 1964 World's Fair R-36s belong on the IRT
Flushing Line, and those R-33s with the black strip below their
number plates I saw on the IRT #6 line belong on the IRT #2
line. Why were these cars moved onto the IRT #6 line. It's the
same thing, I saw two wweks ago: Pelham Line R-62A on the #3
line. Are all the IRT lines switching cars around soon?
"Corona" R-36s have been assigned to Pelham Maintenance Shop (#6 line) for many, many years, along with the 34 "mainline" R-36s.
The R-33s on the #6 line are there in exchange for two trains of R-62As, which run in #5 service and allow for OPTO (One-Person Train Operation) on the Dyre Avenue Shuttle at night.
About ten R-62As were transferred from Pelham Maintenance Shop (#6 line) to Livonia Maintenance Shop (#3 line) a few weeks ago. The 42nd Street Shuttle fleet is now maintained by Livonia.
David
Folks--
Had a chance to chat with the NJ Assembly Transportation Committee Chair, Alex DeCroce, while we both waited for a committee meeting to begin.
Alex tells me the planned March 24 opening of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Line is delayed. He says Transportation Commissioner Jim Weinstein wants assurances everything will work fine. According to Alex, some minor glitches (my words, not his) need to be resolved.
The estimated opening date is now sometime in mid-April, probably before Easter/Passover weekend (April 20, 21, 22, 23).
Michael
"The estimated opening date is now sometime in mid-April, probably before Easter/Passover weekend (April 20, 21, 22, 23)."
Marvelous timing! I'll be in town for the APA National Conference (Hi, Larry!) right about then, for nearly a whole week.
BTW, in connection with the Conference, but operated by a private tour company, there's a "one-hour behind the scenes tour" of Grand Central Station (followed by a United Nations tour) on Saturday, April 15th for $45. Mind you, I don't know how behind the scenes it is, but for $45, it surely shows more than the public areas of the station. Since it's being run separate from the Conference, registration is totally separate and one probably doesn't have to have anything to do with APA to get in. Mind you, from past Conferences I can tell you that tours fill up fast, and they may in fact be filled already. Nevertheless, it sounds like an opportunity to see parts of GCT that the public doesn't usually see. The company running this is The Vega Group, and their telephone is 504-947-5000. I believe that you have to say this is in connection with "APA in New York City".
The NY Division of the ERA has a behind the scenes tour of Grand Central every February. I think it's $10.
--Mark
I rode on the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail line this past sunday with some scheduling people. This is comfirmed, the opening date is not until some time in mid-April, due to some scheduling and lay-over conflicts. When it does open, EVERONE IS IN FOR ONE HELL OF A TREAT!!!!
Trevor Logan
The spokesperson for 21st Century, the consortium building and operating Jersey City-Bayonne Light Rail (it's not even going to make it into Hoboken until the end of next year, let alone Bergen County) anticipates revenue service commencing in three to six weeks. As an aside, they do expect to get it as far north as Newport by the end of this year.
That wouldn't surprise me. The superstructure is almost done as far as Hoboken. Since a lot of the work beyond between Newport and Exchange Place is done (at least in terms of rail and signals), that makes life easier.
Michael
There is still a lot of work to be done up to Newport. The crossing at Washington Ave. (being raised about 4 feet), and track work from Harsimus to Newport. Plus the stations, especially Harborside, are far from done.
Why doesn't the MTA allow subway-to-subway transfers on the MetroCard? This would be the next best thing to actually physically connecting nearby lines.
For example, last week, a couple of SubTalkers posted with praise for the new connection between the Franklin Ave. shuttle and the IRT in Brooklyn. Well, if the MetroCard had been programmed to allow subway-to-subway transfers, then people could have been using this "connection" for the last several years.
Likewise, subway-to-subway capability on the MetroCard would allow people to "connect" between the 63rd Street line and the Queens Boulevard line even before the actual physical meeting of the lines is accomplished. Queensbridge riders could take the short walk to Queens Plaza in order to catch the E or F for no extra fare.
Here are some other useful "virtual connections" (requiring at most a minimal walk) which a subway-to-subway transfer would make possible:
- the R at Steinway St. to the N at Broadway
- the B/Q at Lexington Ave. to the 6 at 68th St.
- the G at Broadway to the L at Lorimer St.
- the C at Lafayette Ave. to the trains at Atlantic Ave./Pacific St.
- the G at Fulton St. to the trains at Atlantic Ave./Pacific St.
- the L at Livonia Ave. to the 3 at Junius St.
- the N, 7 at Queensboro Plaza to the E, F, R, G at Queens Plaza
Any chance the MTA will one day allow for this?
Ferdinand Cesarano
To be perfectly honest with you, I seriously doubt it!
Trevor
The only way to do that with a per-ride card would be with an exit swiper. But the timed cards allow it today since it doesn't matter how many rides you take during the time period.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd pay extra for the MTA to install such a system! If you could transfer from Bway-Laffyette to the northbound 6 at Bleeker, it would solve the problem of there not being a transfer and the cost of building one! Same with those other places. You get 18 minutes to make the change. Another thing that should be done is that there should be a grace period for transfers. Once, I was on a stopped 4 train in Brooklyn (think it was at Nevins) so I transdered to the 3 to take go up Bway to 79th Street and then bus over to 3rd Avenue-my destanation. Since I started at or near Coney Island, I barely made the free transfer to the M79. Most parking garages have a 5 or 10 minute grace period. Why not the same with MetroCard?
The original time allowed between transfers did include an eighteen minute grace period: i.e. the transfer had to be made within 2 hr. 18 min.. I don't know if the extra time was ever dropped.
If you could transfer from Bway-Lafayette to the northbound 6 at Bleeker ...
You might not need a MetroCard for it. Such a connection is on the next Capital Plan.
--Mark
The MTA could save alot of money by making not current transfers exist with MetroCard. Capital campaigns could then go to things like new cars.
Why would you need an exit swiper?
For per-ride cards - they don't allow any subway-subway transfers. Let's say you boarded at Union Square on the N, got off at Prince Street, and transferred to the 6 at Spring Street. Assuming this is within the two hour window normally allocated for a transfer to a bus, how do they know that you didn't just exit at Prince Street, go have lunch at a nearby restaurant, and then "transfer" to the 6 back to Union Square? You'd need an exit swiper and a limited time - 12 minutes, say, or even being generous and allowing the 18 minutes that seems to figure so prominently in Metrocard calculations - to permit the transfer without a high potential for abuse.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How do you prevent people from doing this with busses? You don't. The costs of closing these loopholes and enforcing it exceeds the lost revenue.
Why not? The exit swiper could be programmed to identify it as a subway-subway transfer. Note that I'm not advocating doing this, I'm just saying it is technically possible.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are there any present built in free interchanges between above ground and underground routes? How do they work?
Sure. For instance, at Broadway Junction, you have the J and L coming in as elevateds, and the A train below ground.
You just have to take a looooooong escalator or staircase to get from one to the other.
Ferdinand Cesarano
There's a few.. they all work by lots of stairs in between :-)
161st St./River Ave: 4 (el), B/D (subway)
74th St./Broadway: 7 (el), E/F/G/R (subway)
Myrtle/Wyckoff Aves: M (el), L (subway)
Broadway/East New York: J/Z/L (el), A/C (subway)
Franklin Ave: S (el), A/C (subway)
4th Ave/9th St.: F (el), M/R (subway)
I can think of two more:
- Times Square = 7th & 8th Ave (1/2/3/9 & A/C/E) ... a very long walk
- 168th St = 1/9 & A/C ... incl. a elevator ride & a walk OVER the North bound IRT.
Mr t__:^)
He was asking about subway-elevated transfers-- both of those are subway-subway...
-Dave
I think if you have an unlimited weekly or monthly Metrocard, you can transfer between subways all you want...
www.forgotten-ny.com
[I think if you have an unlimited weekly or monthly Metrocard, you can transfer between subways all you want...]
This is true, so it's up to the customer to decide which card makes the best fit, e.g.
- One day unlimited, Fun Pass, at $4.00 vs. two tokens at $3.00
- Weekly unlimited at $17.00 vs. 5x1.50x2 = 15.00, incl. 1 free ride
- etc., etc.
Mr t__:^)
I did a subway-to-subway transfer once. It was from the Junius Street station (3) to the Livonia Avenue station (L). It's a short walk, but I made it. It's all possible with the unlimited Ride MetroCard. Just so long as the transfer is made after the 18 minute "JUST USED" error expires.
A few corrections/additions:
1. Add South Ferry (1/9)-Whitehall Street (N/R)-Bowling Green (4/5) to the list.
2. "Broadway (G)-Lorimer St (L)" should be "Broadway (G)-Lorimer St (J/M)." There is already a (G)/(L) transfer at Metropolitan Av (G).
3. Fulton St (G)-Lafayette Av (C)-Atlantic/Pacific (2/3/4/5/B/D/M/N/Q/R): A short walk, but feasible
4. Steinway Street (G/R)-Broadway (N): It's a longer walk. It'd be better using a Q104 to help. I don't think so. It'd be better to transfer at Queens Plaza; Shorter walk.
5. Add Hoyt-Schermerhorn (A/C/G)-Hoyt Street (2/3) to the list.
6. Ditto for Jay St (A/C/F)-Lawrence St (M/N/R)
7. Also for Broad St (J/M/Z)-Wall St (4/5)-(2/3)
8. and Grand St (B/D/Q)-Bowery (J/M) (That'd get more people to use that station!!!)
9. Also, 49 St (N/R)-50 St (1/9)-(C/E)
A couple of notes:
1. Broadway (G)-Lorimer St (J/M) MetroCard transfer in use during Williamsburg Bridge reconstruction.
2. Lex/63 (S)-Lex/59 (4/5/6/N/R) MC transfer in use during 63 St Tunnel Project.
I think that's all.
[Fulton St (G)-Lafayette Av (C)-Atlantic/Pacific (2/3/4/5/B/D/M/N/Q/R): A short walk, but feasible ]
This is a very important transfer which should exist. Currently it's nearly impossible to get to the G from the Brighton line.
Such a transfer would also make the Franklin Avenue Shuttle useless.
I do not think the Broad St transfer would come into play. There is a transfer one station to the north. I like the Hoyt transfer. The Jay/Lawrence transfer might be a reality..... I also like the Atlatic/Lafayette/Fulton transfer..........
3TM
Well Saturday I made it up to town with a friend. In addition to dislocating my shoulder in Corona Park, I saw a good bit of the subways of Queens and rode the Flushing Line out to Shea. The stations along Queens Blvd are really spectacular. My friend was impressed with the stained glass windows.
But my gripe is with the West End line. Saturday was the third time I've tried to do that line and it was the third time the B was rerouted to the Sea Beach. Is it my luck or is it always rerouted?
Steve's getting upset here!:)
Wouldn't it be rerouted in only one direction?
When I was in town a week ago Saturday , we went down the center of the Sea Beach, regular B riders werent too happy, but I thought it was pretty neat to be able go down the Sea Beach center tracks (albeit VERY slowly...) A tech question tho: why does it start out on the normal 'outbound' track, then switch over to the 'inbound' track??
Outbound/Inbound... in refrence to what?
Just look at the inbound track at 8th Avenue. As you go farther down the line, you find crossties and plaster on the tracks and the third rail is warped in parts.
The section between Kings Highway and 86th Street is always maintained(that's where the B reroutes go).
I've heard that the entire inbound track will be removed soon.
Consider yourself lucky bud. You got to ride on my favorite line and the best one in the city. How lucky can you be? The same thing happened to me last summer, but I didn't gripe. It was fun riding on the Sea Beach Express tracks.
Oh I enjoyed it, believe me.
But I've done the Sea Beach 4 or 5 times and never the West End.
You might call the Transit Authority and find out where each line is running at that particular time. They could tell you if the West End is being diverted from Coney Island via the Sea Beach Express tracks.
You two are both lucky in that regard. I've never had the chance to experience an express run on the Sea Beach. OTOH, if it's a train of R-68s, well, no great loss there. I hear that back in the good old days, trains got up to, oh, 45 mph on those express tracks.
The last time I was on those tracks was on the NX Super Express!!
Why don't you check out the list of Scheduled Diversions before you plan your next trip?
The ususal pattern for non-rush hour IRT service in Brooklyn is to terminate the #5 at Bowling Green, run the #4 express to Utica, and serve other stations with the #2 and #3 local. To get to Grand Army Plaza, I frequently board a #5 to Bowling Green, switch to a #4, than catch the 2/3 at Nevins.
Recently, as a result of construction, the #4 has terminated at Atlantic Avenue. That has got me thinking -- would Brooklyn be better off if both the #5 and #5 went through to Brooklyn, but terminated at Atlantic Ave? The cost of running the #5 past Bowling Green would probably equal the savings from turning the #4 at Atlantic.
The only losers I see are the not inconsiderable number of people boarding or changing from a bus at Franklin and Utica. Everyone traveling to or from the East Side and any other station would be better off, since there would be more Lexington Express trains to transfer to. And of course, LIRR riders to Flatbush would benefit.
Your thoughts here?
This was the service pattern for many years. Both the 4 and 5 went to Atlantic Avenue during the mid-day hours. Starting some time in 1988, the headways on the 4 were increased from 10 minutes to 6 minutes in an effort to increase service on the Lexington Ave. line. The 5 terminated at Bowling Green because the increased #4 service was thought to be adequate.
...Starting some time in 1988, the headways on the 4 were increased from 10 minutes to 6 minutes in an effort to increase service on the Lexington Ave. line. The 5 terminated at Bowling Green because the increased #4 service was thought to be adequate....
Let's see, if I've got this right. Prior to the "improvement" service to Brooklyn was once every 5 minutes. After the "improvement" service is once every 6 minutes.
(Improvement)
Service went up in Manhattan, and down in Brooklyn. In NYC, that is certainly thought of as an improvement.
It was not an improvement meant for Brooklyn. They lost 2 trains per hour. However, they did get day-long express service between Atlantic and Utica. IIRC, the #4 headways were increased from 6 to 5 minutes in the mid-90's.
...the #4 headways were increased from 6 to 5 minutes in the mid-90's...
The last set of html schedules from the MTA website showd that they still had 6 minute headways in 1999.
They may have been reduced when the #5 headways were increased from 10 to 8 minutes.
Car shortage would probably interfere. I do think the 5 should go to Atlantic, though.
The one extension the 5 needs is to go to 149th late nites. To get from Dyre to 86th/Lex at 2 AM (I never would need this but someone might) involves taking 3 trains! The 5 should make express stops from 180th to 149th so people can get from the north of the Bronx to the 4 late nights with out so many transfers.
INTERESTING LATE NIGHT FACT: The A makes 57 stops on its late night runs.
And the F makes 55. The #2 makes 60. Must be rough on the conductors.
It would be even rougher if they still had to contend with external trigger boxes. That four-borough run on the CC with the R-10s had to be murder.
1. There will be 2/3 service from Utica and Franklin.
2. Ever try boarding a 3 bound for Utica during the midday construction? Try it and tell me if you feel the same way. 3. I used to live by the Utica IRT. That station is very important for people coming from E.Flatbush, Brownsville, and Canarsie via the B14, B17, and the B46 buses. I dont think that they will be very happy to take two buses to get to the subway all the way in Downtown Brooklyn......
I do not like your ideas of taking away subway service. It is all about saving money with you. Everybody is equal, whether poor or rich and therefore should get the same service...........
Sorry for going off in a tangent.....
3TM
That's not true. Obviously the poor are less than the rich when it comes to finances.
You know what I mean? Right???? Please say yes.......
3TM
Everybody is created without quality, I will not go beyond that.
I know some of our good folks here at subtalk have been lucky enough to see, and maybe even take pictures of the R142 in testing. Perhaps som of these pics can be e-mailed to Dave so they can go on the R142 page. So far, we only have nightime pics of them at the Yonkers Kawasaki yard. -Nick
Sigh! I am willing to scan my R142A photos. But the only problem is all are slides. I don't have a slide scanner nearby. I will contact my friends whether they have slide scanners.
Chaohwa
Have the best of the lot converted to 4X6 photos and scan THOSE.
wayne
I took couple R142A today & i have front #7220 while running at Gun Hill Rd & #7215 leaving the station. Also i took about 4 pictures each cars.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
PS: Im going back again & this time i will be other side of station.
Okay. I will consider it after I get my slides back tomorrow. Thanks a lot, Wayne.
Chaohwa
Basically I will scan three of them.
(1) Closeup look of car 7215.
(2) Closeup look of digital illuminated sign
(3) The R142A train at Gun Hill Road with the station building as the background.
When they are ready, I will tell Dave that he can put them on the R142 car page.
Chaohwa
Ugh, never do that if you could possibly scan the slide. Chao-Hwa, I have a slide scanner (and I'm in the market for another one that has a bulk loader)-- the one I have scans negatives as well. They're well worth the investment; they scan 10x better than you'd get from a print.
-Dave
What I am going to do this evening is to scan three to four slides into floppy discs. It is cheaper than printing 4x6s. If I can find one who has slide scanner nearby, that is much better.
Anyway, I will post the slides as soon as this evening.
Chaohwa
I would like to know when was the 9th Avenue subway taken out of service and what was the reason?
[I would like to know when was the 9th Avenue subway taken out of service and what was the reason?]
It was replaced by the Eighth Avenue subway.
I would assume that safety concerns led to the termination of 9th Ave. subway service. It's dangerous running subway cars underground when no subway tunnel exist.
Seriously, I think you mean the 9th Ave. el, which was closed in 1940 because it became redundant after the 8th Ave IND opened in 1932.
Regarding the IRT, as part of the Unification deal, the 2nd Ave El north of 59th Street and the 9th Ave Els in Manhattan would close forever at 12:01am on June 12th, 1940. There were no special ceremonies held for the closing of these lines, even though the 9th Ave El was the first elevated rapid transit line in the world, starting service on July 1st, 1868 between Cortlandt Street and Battery Place. The last train on the 9th Ave El, a 7-car train filled with 500 people, left South Ferry at 11:14pm, arriving at 155th Street at 12:06am. The last train on the 2nd Ave El, a 3 car train filled with 150 people, left South Ferry shortly after at 11:16pm, arriving at 129th St at 11:51pm. With the 6th Ave El having been torn down as a result of the building of the Independent's 6th Ave subway, only the 3rd Ave El remained in service. Free transfers at 155th St, Manhattan, and 161st St in the Bronx, were made available to the Independent's Concourse line. The only remaining portion of the 9th Ave El, the "Polo Grounds Shuttle" to Burnside Ave, closed for about 1 1/2 hours at the close of 9th Ave service, to "prepare" this portion of the line for its new service pattern. The Els were torn down because the city felt the Els would run under a huge deficit, and they could not afford that. With the Independent subway providing redundant service nearby, there was no need for the elevateds anymore.
Have you looked at The History of the Independent Subway on this site?
--Mark
I would like to know when Co-Op City was built in 1968-69, why wasn't the Dyre Avenue #5 train or Pelham Bay #6 train extended to go into Co-Op City causing people to pay a double fare on the express bus?
I don't know...maybe they wanted you to walk or take a bus..and there are no more double fares...if you have a metrocard.
The idea back then was a future connection to Co-Op City would be via the wonderful new Second Ave. subway line they wree just starting to build at the time the apartment complex was completed. I think the plan back then was to take over the Pelham Bay line from the IRT, convert it to IND/BMT width, connected it up with Second Ave. on the south and extend it to Co-Op City on the north.
Didn't work out like that, did it?
[The idea back then was a future connection to Co-Op City would be via the wonderful new Second Ave. subway line they wree just starting to build at the time the apartment complex was completed. I think the plan back then was to take over the Pelham Bay line from the IRT, convert it to IND/BMT width, connected it up with Second Ave. on the south and extend it to Co-Op City on the north.]
At the time the city built the Concourse Line, there were vague plans to someday extend it into the northeast Bronx (that was long before Co-op City, of course). Nothing ever came of these plans.
According to Stan Fischler, the reason those plans ended was due to the acquisition of the Dyre line.
Phase II of the 1968 MTA "Program For Action" planned for extension of the Pelham Line to Co-op City. Lack of funding and the City's fiscal crisis ended those plans.
--Mark
Got me about a 100 of them today. 500 more to go.
Planning to paper your house?
Although I don't have the subway map as my wallpaper, My room is painted the famous TA yellow. I do have a map hanging somewhere.
Damn Right...maybe an add on annex to my house.
Why?
when we were walking to the south brooklyn railroad yards, we passed the yard on 39th st where the ta is storing the rts buses--- doug noticed 3 subway cars sitting further into the yards--- upon a closer look doug identified them as 3 q type cars
i spoke with him tonight, and he said that he checked and discovered that they were previously owned by south brooklyn---- anyone know more about these cars?
I think those cars were the alcohol train. I last remember them being kept in CI.
Not that having a bar car on the subway wouldn't be interesting, but I'm sure the alcohol train had to do with something else. I'm just not sure what. Could you explain in a little more detail?
Alchohol is used as a de-icer.
But, weren't those Q cars used as "reach" cars for the pump train?
That's what they were. Demotored Q Types that operated on the pump train for a number of years. According to Sansone's evolution book, the cars in question are one Q Type Trailer, 1612B, and two QX control trailer cars, 1630B, and 1636B. How do you like that? It seems that the QXs survived into the 90s, even though virtually all of that class was scrapped in the 50s!
Unfortunately, the cars lack the equipment that would make them functional, and combined with the overall condition of the wooden bodies, makes them ineligible for preservation. When there's nothing to save, that's it.
-Stef
Jeff H., any chance Branford would be interested in one of them?
I know they look like "hopeless cases", but there's still two of them that are in some condition to be refurbished.
Doug aka BMTman
ROTFL!
Maybe as chicken coops for our neighbor's farm yard.
Not much left inside or out worth preserving in terms of parts
either.....maybe the Peck 40 trailers for shop trucks.
At a certain point, so much work is required to restore cars that you might as well build one from scratch using modern materials.
They were at one time on the list for the Railway Preservation Society when they were in CIY. The trucks and drawheads may be the only parts worth saving as they still have the Van Dorn link and pin drawheads last they were on TA property. Unless a last minute buyer ploped down some cash, they were on the scrap list. Those car bodies are not worth saving.
Last night, two rocket scientists found out that surfing on the roof of an E-Train (which is always in the tunnel) can be dangerous. At 10:50 PM, two youths were struck by support beams in the tunnel between 65th Street & Roosevelt Avenue. One fell to the roadbed and suffered massive head injuries. The other fell between cars and was 'rescued' by two passengers. Service in Queens was disrupted for 1:25 while NYPD sorted out the mess.
[Last night, two rocket scientists found out that surfing on the roof of an E-Train (which is always in the tunnel) can be dangerous. At 10:50 PM, two youths were struck by support beams in the tunnel between 65th Street & Roosevelt Avenue. One fell to the roadbed and suffered massive head injuries. The other fell between cars and was 'rescued' by two passengers. Service in Queens was disrupted for 1:25 while NYPD sorted out the mess.]
I trust that the judges' panel for the 2000 Darwin Awards is following their conditions with considerable interest.
got a link to the story so i can send the story to the guys at darwinawards.com?
And another crew gets the shaft by being taken out of service for the actions of 2 jerks, gets grilled by the cops and TA bigshots, pees in the cup at Jay St., gets to see the TA "doctor", and gets the ultimate punishment by having to work platforms at least till the results of the urine are returned (guilty till proven innocent?).
Don't forget: the families of these two Einsteins will obviously sue Transit (for operating the train) and the City (for building the QBL line 70 years ago), AND seek first-degree murder charges against the train operator, the conductor, the station agent at their point of entry, and every passenger on the train in question - all because these guys, of their own free will, CONSCIOUSLY DECIDED to be stupid.
Good thing the "E" doesn't have REDBIRDS..
otherwise the birds' REALLY be sentenced.
But the R32s are close. To me, they are the B-Division Redbirds (as well as the R27 and R30)
I wonder if the two Einsteins were also "great graffiti artists," like one of the surfers who got themselves wiped out on the Sea Beach line earlier this year supposedly was.
03/08/2000
Gotham Bus Co,
Pardon my sarcasm, but something good may come of this. The TA will be forced post stickers warning pasengers that riding on top of subway car roofs is dangerous !
Bill Newkirk
Point taken.
That reminds me of the burglar who won a huge award because the owners of the store he was robbing had not posted a sign on the roof warning of the danger of falling through the skylight!
It also reminds me of the guy whose family won a judgment against the Chicago Transit Authority because the "Do Not Walk On Tracks" sign was only in English!
I'm not usually like this, but I read that post about those two. I laughed at least an hour!
I feel sorry for the people that got hung up because of these two. One probably had his earphones on and didn't hear the ceiling approach.
Perhaps the TA will need to now install barbed wire fences atop each car, like building roof tops, to prevent these idiotic stunts.
Joe Caronetti
Common sense was apparently repealed during the Johnson Administration. Thus "deadman" controls on lawn mowers, extra short cords on electric drills, warning stickers on ladders, and lots of other stuff that our forefathers knew what NOT to do with.
The yo-yos that got themselves eliminated didn't have a lick of common sense - they were obviously born after 1968.
Warning stickers on subway car roofs is another example of "cradle to the grave" care thinking.
And you New Yorkers say we Californians are strange. Those two fruitcakes beat anything I've ever heard of before. That tells me New Yorkers are nuttier than we are. I know of no one who would try such a stupid stunt. I only hope those guys pull through and learn the error of their dumb acts. A couple of schlamiels (wrong spelling)
How is it that the rutgers tunnel has not received welded rail?
I notice on some curves the rails are not welded, is this because of faster wear?
Could not double lengths be installed {78 ft} to make for a quiter
and smoother Ride?
Where else on the IND still needs welding?
Speaking of clacketty-clack, I was on the J train the other day. Not only are the rails not welded; it seems that they aren't even tightly bolted. If any part of the system could use better rails, it's the Jamaica El.
How are welded rail delivered to the site, where it will be placed,
section by section {39ft} then welded or prewelded and put on a special flat car train , similar to LIRR, or combo of both?
How many types of plates or footings are used, again i have seen several. Spring like huge paper clip, top and bottom padded metal plates. Any others? Any on concret ties yet?
I'm in Staten Island Sunday night and channel surfing. Low and behold 10 minutes into the Program I find Transit Transit. They are just finishing up a segment on the WTC switch replacement. Showing the concrete pour (I've looked, lousy job; ask BMT Man too).
They then go into a segment on Co-Branded metrocard. They interview a designer and make sure to meantion that not a single penny comes from the farebox to pay for this.
Then it is off to metrocard collecting. They go to the metrocard show they just had in some resturant in Manhattan (my good friends are into this as you can see not me. Didn't pay too much attention).
Low and Behold, there is our Thurston. 15 to 20 second spot interview of him.
With more and more subtalkers getting into the news (HeyPaul is goint to be in print) this is sure a place to hang out.
Way to go Thurston.
And thanks Lou, for waking me from a coma to tell me that our own MC maven, Thurston, was featured on the show.
Doug aka BMTman
Sitting next to me as the tape was rolling was ..... the BMT man.
They filmed me twice, the second for about 10 minutes (at least it seemed like a very long time). They also caught Bill Newkirk and maybe a few other Subtalkers on film at the same event (they spent quite a long time at the event, which was packed).
This Wednesday I'll be able to see myself on the LI Public Access station. I'm expecting to see a piece done at the Central Elect. Shop at Woodside where I'm sure to recognize several that I deal with on a regular basis (as part of my job ... I do do a little work now and then). I know that folks from cTc, LI Bus & NYCDOT were invited to the filming at CES. In case you don't know the CES does turnstile and farebox repairs along with many other electronnic parts of the subway cars & buses.
BTW, there was/is going to be a TA Museum tour of CES.
Mr t__:^)
the tour will be 3/18/2000=-sold out!(Yes- I have my reservation.)
Subway-Buff, Tell Ted, Jerry, John, Steve, Bob, Leon, Alex & Art I said hello. Seriously I deal with quite a few of the folks there. There are many good people there with Ted Hrycyszyn being the "Chief". Ask to see the poster of the old subway cars in his office.
Suggestion 1: Don't try to drive there as there's no place to park. The G/R stop at Northern is just 2 blocks away. Also the QSC Q66 and cTc Q18 go there.
Suggestion 2: Walk down Northern (West) to Woodside & have lunch in a old Queens Surface trolley waiting room. It's a Pizza Hut now, but was preserved on the outside the way it was. The mall & parking lot was where the trolleys were housed.
Suggestion 3: Amtrak trains from CT ply the el that crosses Northern there, so have your camera ready.
Mr t__:^)
Is the Central Electric Shop in Woodside a TA facilty?
Yes it is
With more and more subtalkers getting into the news (HeyPaul is goint to be in print) this is sure a place to hang out.
Maybe we should run for Mayor!
Our name recognition might not be good, but our "negatives" can't be too high. Yet.
Has anyone seem the new "Madison Square Garden" signs on the 34th St IND platform? They did a decent job replicating the old IND typefont.
BTW, does anyone know the name of the font? These days, when the old Star Trek logo and Charles Schulz' handwriting have been digitized and are available as typefonts, it'd be cool to have the IND font commercially available. It'd work well in art deco type layouts.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Unfortunately, the latest MC's to be released is simply a re-issue of the Amex "upsidedown" cards.
I purchased one from the fare control attendant at Rockaway Pkwy.
Doug aka BMTman
I tried to get one at Livonia on Monday but the station agent did not have any. I think that the station agents at Livonia are from another planet :):(
3TM
03/08/2000
Doug aka BMT Man,
Did you check the card carefully to see if it's identical?
I call it the American Distress card! Isn't flying the American flag upside down a distress signal ?
Bill Newkirk
I believe it's identical. Perhaps the Amex numbers are different?
Doug aka BMTman
Eye have seen some subtle differences in batches of MC, e.g. there is a "Healthy City" series where a "Living Longer" card has different folks in the graph photo; NY Univ. there were three different fonts in the graphics; AT&T the four are two and two, i.e. 20 minutes and 11 rides; school passes the new ones have numbers under the "S"; Emigrant set of 8, I think one of them has a difference; Jackie Robinson one has a Queens County logo, the other doesn't.
BTW, I'm up to 167 NYC & 78 out-of-town metro cards plus various transfers & tickets that I've been able to trade with SubTalkers, e.g. I have all 12 Atlanta 1999 monthly passes thanks to a dear friend there.
P.S. I still find this hobby a lot of FUN because I avoid money transactions, e.g. folks will send me a MC Holder, or a ticket or a local token (I have a token & coin collection too) if they don't have anything to trade.
P.P.S. We're about to have a retirement party for a long term employee & I'm expected to PRESENT the honoree a bunch of tokens & MCs, at which time I'll say "they're just like you, they don't work anymore". I started doing this a few years ago & now it's part of the roast, but all done it good taste ... some of it even still has value, i.e. I have a few "Silver Certificates" that will be included.
Mr t__:^)
Today's NY Times has a story about the MTA rejecting posting advertising by a consumer pressure group to press Gov. Pataki to enact the five-year capital program. The ads suggested that trains might be overcrowded, in a graphic manner that appears to have offended the MTA.
Interesting. Wonder how $2.00 / gallon gas prices are going to affect the NYC subway (and for that matter, other subway systems in the US). DO you suppose overcrowding willbecome more of a problem? ;)
--Mark
($2.00 per gallon gas)
Most people who could use mass transit but nonetheless drive aren't going to change because of $2.00 per gallon gas. Gasoline is just a small part of operating a car. Short run people will just absorb the cost. Oil demand is inelastic.
A shortage, on the other hand, might get people thinking about long run decisions. Businesses might take another look at Downtown Brooklyn or Jersey City, instead of Greenwich or Morris County, for their new location. People might think twice about that SUV. A real gas problem this year might be a good reminder, which might change people's decisions in the long run.
From the point of view of investment in public transit and alternative energy, a little reminder that petroleum is a) finite and b) controlled by a small number of unstable countries couldn't hurt.
[Most people who could use mass transit but nonetheless drive aren't going to change because of $2.00 per gallon gas. Short run people will just absorb the cost. Oil demand is inelastic.
A shortage, on the other hand, might get people thinking about long run decisions. Businesses might take another look at Downtown Brooklyn or Jersey City, instead of Greenwich or Morris County, for their new location. People might think twice about that SUV. A real gas problem this year might be a good reminder, which might change people's decisions in the long run.]
Prolonged high gasoline prices or shortages also might bring that perennial bridesmaid called telecommuting to the altar once and for all. For several years now, we've keet hearing that telecommuting is the Next Big Thing, just around the bend, coming soon, and so on. Yet its hype has never quite managed to live up to reality. Partly that's due to employer inertia, partly to the way the home vs. workplace midset is so deeply ingrained, but at least to some extent it's because driving to work is still no huge deal in most places at most times. But if gasoline gets up to two bucks a gallon (possible but not likely), or even worse if 1970's-style gas lines return, telecommuting will seem a lot more attractive. What it might entail is "hybrid" telecommuting, in which people work mainly at home but come into the office a day or two each week. Time will tell, I suppose.
[Gasoline is just a small part of operating a car.]
That's for sure. I just got a call from the garage where I dropped off my car this morning. Turns out that pesky oil leak is courtesy of a bad head gasket ... a most unwelcome $urprise.
(Hybrid telecommuting)
This could be a big deal for the subway too, especially if those coming in for meetings do so in the middle of the day rather than at 9:00 a.m. Anything that speads the rush hour will aid the finacial picture at the TA. The question is, with the whole rush hour mentality at the MTA, will they accomodate the riders by increasing base service?
[(Hybrid telecommuting)
This could be a big deal for the subway too, especially if those coming in for meetings do so in the middle of the day rather than at 9:00 a.m. Anything that speads the rush hour will aid the finacial
picture at the TA.]
And don't forget the commuter rail lines. Their ridership's heavy rush-hour concentration is a big reason why the farebox recovery ratios are so dismal.
Welcome to the club! Hope they do a better job on your car than the mechanics did last summer on my wife's - she blew the engine last month on her Mustang while travelling, partially because the idiots last summer put the wrong head gaskets on when they rebuilt the heads. Of course, it only came with a 3 month warranty...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If they installed the wrong part, you're entitled to sue for damages. The cost of the original job, and the cost of repairing the mistake (or damage from it) Easy to do in small claims! (Been There, Done That Successfuly Twice!)
-Hank
If they installed the wrong part, you're entitled to sue for damages. The cost of the original job, and the cost of repairing the mistake (or damage from it) Easy to do in small claims! (Been There, Done That Successfuly Twice!) OH, IANAL, but I worked on the Small Claims Information Project when I volunteered for a short time with NYPIRG.
-Hank
"IANAL"
Either you're telling us you're anal, or this is another one of those funky internet acronyms.
"IANAL"
I Am Not A Lawyer
-Dave
(IANAL = I am not a lawyer)
There ought to be a glossary of these things somewhere on the net. I figured out IMHO on my own, but I still don't get LOL.
[(IANAL = I am not a lawyer)
There ought to be a glossary of these things somewhere on the net. I figured out IMHO on my own, but I still don't get LOL.]
LOL = laughing out loud.
Some others you'll see:
ROTFL = rolling on the floor laughing (a bit stronger than LOL)
IIRC = if I recall correctly (when you're fairly but not 100% sure)
ISTR = I seem to recall (a bit more doubt than IIRC)
BRB = be right back (usually seen in chat)
RTM = read the manual (in response to a stupid question)
RTFM = read the [deleted] manual (in response to a REALLY stupid question)
I got one that I'd use sometimes.
FSSR abbrev. For Some Strange Reason.
I was riding on the M train, when FSSR the train went up Manhattan's Broadway instead of Brooklyn's.
IMHO, I think LOL stands for Larry Otto Littlefield
i imagine your middle name is otto, since it has two
repeated letters, which is a hallmark of your first
and last names
seriously, or rather humorously, lol stands for lots
of lunatics or more commonly lots of laughs....
DITTO.........
I found a site with a whole list of abbreviations (like IMHO, LOL, etc.) and the "smileys" are listed too.
Click here to go there.
These days, there had to be one.
if gasoline gets up to two bucks a gallon (possible but not likely)
I hope you're right, but there's a gas station just off the Thruway at exit 14B on Airmont Road that's already at $1.79 / gallon .....
--Mark
"Most people who could use mass transit but nonetheless drive aren't going to change because of $2.00 per gallon gas. Gasoline is just a small part of operating a car. Short run people will just absorb the cost. Oil demand is inelastic."
But that's presuming that the two choices are mutually exclusive: either you have a car and drive it to work every day or you don't have a car and ride transit everyday. Oddly enough, there's a fair number of people, living in the suburbs but working in the city, who do both, by using park-and-ride. Also, some people I know drive into work some days and take the train on other days, based mainly on how much stuff they have to carry on a given day. The price of gas may make many of these "hybrid" commuters decide that carrying stuff on the train isn't so bad that they have to drive downtown. :^)
I realize a fair number of cities have really crappy transit systems that aren't going to entice anyone out of their cars. But, as you put it, we're talking about the class of people for whom transit is a viable option but who drive for their entire trip anyway. (All those morons stuck creeping along on the Kennedy Expressway at rush hour while the Blue Line trains speed past them!!) For this group, high gas prices could be the "last straw" that pushes them to make a relatively cost-less *short-run* decision to ride transit, along the lines of "It can't hurt to give it a try." (Enormous highway construction projects can have the same effect -- reconstruction of the Stevenson Expy. here in Chicago has increased Orange Line and Metra Heritage Corridor ridership, the latter to the degree that an additional round trip was added to the line, which had only two round trips each weekday.)
The problem then becomes, especially if the responsible agency didn't anticipate or adjust to the increased demand, the experience can be so bad, people say: "I can't wait until the construction is done/gas prices go down/the repairs are finished so I can drive to work again, instead of riding in this lumbering bus/oversized sardine can!" This is why new projects have high success rates: they aren't yet working at capacity, or anywhere near it. The ride is still quick and comfortable. This attracts more riders. If done right, as the Baltimore LRT, LA Metrolink, COASTER, and a few others are doing, you can continue to meet current demand, and be prepared for future demand, all while continually increasing ridership.
-Hank
"especially if the responsible agency didn't anticipate or adjust to the increased demand"
I agree. If the transit authorities don't sufficiently accomodate the additional passengers, then they've blown a golden opportunity served to them on a silver platter (enough precious metals there?) by the Highway Department (or Highway Division in a Transportation Department) -- an agency usually NOT in the business of doing favors for the transit agencies. :^)
With the Stevenson Expy. (I-55) reconstruction here (oy veh, what a mess!), Metra added one round trip a day to the still-pitiful Heritage Corridor line -- now three round trips, strictly on weekdays and strictly inbound in the morning rush and outbound in the evening rush. I think that CTA added some Orange Line runs, but I don't recall how many off the top of my head. To Metra and CTA's credit, they're both running a LOT more ads recently on radio and television. The ads, however, focus generally on the hassles of driving and parking, and don't refer directly to the Stevenson reconstruction or suggest specific alternates.
When the first energy crisis hit in 1973-74, the Transit Authority introduced its Sunday half-fare program to try to get more people on mass transit. That's where on a Saturday night or Sunday you would buy a token and get a paper return ticket you would give to the token clerk going home. The clerk would then let you in through the slam gate.
(When I was home from college and commuting to summer jobs, on some Sundays I would buy a token, walk to another station and get on using the return ticket. I would repeat this procedure all day, and save the tokens I bought for work that coming week. The daily Funpass before the fact!)
This proved to be such a success that it lasted all the way through the second gas shortage to the 1980 fare hike.
Of course, the TA now offers plenty of discount incentives, the results of which are very evident when riding the trains or buses. If gas prices continue to go up the way they have, I shudder to think how much MORE crowded conditions will get.
Good economy + higher population + higher gas prices + lack of money and/or desire to build more lines = higher ridership + worse overcrowding. A real double-edged sword. Pick your poison!
That was a very interesting atricle. I liked the anti-censorship arugement that the MTA's position is basically that someone riding in an overcrowded train would only realize that the train was overcrowded after they saw/read the ad. At which said person would then realize how much they hated the subway and never ride it again. As you can see, its laughable. FYI my school started a news paper readership programme this year. We get fell copies of the NY Times, USA Today and Middletown Press 5 days a week. Big stacks are left in open bins around campus for student pick up. Cost was about $30,000 and came from the Presiden't Discresionary Fund. It sure beats reading 4 day old Times' in the Library.
Meanwhile the TA allowed the StrapHanger's Association to place posters depicting a sardine can or a snail asking you if the pictures reminded you of your last ride. Maybe when the rail control center goes in with global positioning systems installed on the R68s, you will be greeted at 72 Street with a bulletin "5 minutes before the next train, 5 minutes to 59 Street. Have a nice day."
in today's daily news, there was still no article about heypaul--- how can this be?--- thurston is starring in transit transit--- bob d. frequently is written about in relation to the trolley museum and the atlantic avenue tunnel--- eric got on tv after his fine efforts to bring about a transit strike--- doug gets his photographs and thoughts printed at paul matus's website--- todd has his own radio program--- david pirmann and this website have been written up in the new york times--- every time i go into a deli i have to look at pigs on the boars head label--- karl b has been featured in a lionel video--- mark w has been featured in brooklyn bridge magazine--- harvey is on a wanted poster in the post office
hey--- don't get me wrong--- i don't begrudge these people's good fortune ( except harvey )--- haven't i made enough of a public spectacle of myself to warrant media attention?
it must be the ugly rumors that disloyal officers like jeff rosen spread about me--- the nerve of him to play "old yellowstain" on this website yesterday--- and then the rumors about steaming over the tow line--- defective equipment is all that it was --- doug can do nothing wrong, but heypaul is held up in contempt here--- but i had them when it came to who posted messages using my handle--- and i would have found the impostor, if it weren't for the miserable performance of my disloyal officers...
Don't complain. I can't even get a report with my zoning proposals published.
Hey, I've tried to get someone to read my proposal to pay for the 2nd Ave. subway construction by mobilizing welfare workers to comb the streets for bottles and cans to collect the deposit. For some inexplicable reason, no one takes me seriously.
hey chris--- i think you're developing into quite a
wit--- what with your proposals for the 1,000,000th
post--- i think you are kidding about funding the
2nd ave subway by having welfare people scour the
streets for deposit cans--- although with some of
your political views, i am not entirely sure
if you are serious about it, it sounds like a
typical government attempt to interfere with private
industrious homeless people trying to get up enough
money to eat, get a drink, or just stay alive---
and larry--- you have to complain--- remember it's
the squeaking mind that gets electroshocked (not
very funny) and ( no i have never been
electroshocked, they tried but my mind overpowered
their machines--- i blew the integrated circuits on
4 machines--- drs. howard, fine, and howard were about to connect me to the northeastern power grid, when i miraculously get well)
Hey, I'm a conservative, but not THAT conservative. LOL.
Did everyone cast their meaningless primary vote today (NY and CT only)?
If not, vote McCain (shameless political plug)
Being an avid Knick fan I had no choice but to vote for Bradley (besides I couldn't stomach voting for that "used car salesman", Al Gore).
I was hoping that Walt "Clyde" Fraser or Willis Reed would have been running as Presidental hopefuls but that is not the case. Maybe one of them'll be tapped as Bradley Vice-Presidential candidates? ;-)
(PS I had McCain under consideration, but I always give my vote to the true underdog)
Doug aka BMTman
thanks doug for posting political comments under a subject title where people are expecting my wit and wisdom--- i see you are joining in with jeff rosen to belittle me--- it's a good thing for both of you that the daily news article never got printed...
I love New York's arcane election process. I couldn't vote for McCain directly. I had to vote for a "delegate" supporting him in my electoral district. In a machine which looked like it should've been retired in 1969. Go figure.
Those mechanical voting machines may have been old, but they were reliable. I especially liked the sound those levers made when you pulled them; they sounded a lot like the trigger caps on the R-1/9s.
That's actually one of the smartest ways to choose a candidate in this day and age. I still haven't figured out which candidate is less repulsive, Bush or Gore. Maybe I should just throw my vote away and choose a third party candidate.
Or you can ask for an affdavit ballot and write in whomever you want. Perfectly legal, even if you vote for Mickey Mouse.
In Flordia they have had to draft special legislation because Mickey Mouse was actually winning elections. Basically you have to be a real person now to win. There was also that guy who changed him name to Absolutely Nobody in order to win an election w/ 2 unpopular canidates.
All kinding aside, but I have heard that one of those notorious computer hacker guys actually had his name legally changed to Phiber Optic!
Doug aka BMTman
I think that dude needs a girlfriend ...
That's a good one. A couple of Denver radio personalities read off a list of funny names once. Al Coholic, Anita Drink, Stu Pidasse, among others.
No K. O. Pectate, though. Or Rusty Redbird.-)
Gotta e-mail some of these to Matt Groening ...
You like those, eh? We used to come up with some real good ones in college and send them in to those magazine subscription services. Some of them were pretty crude.
Here's one I heard on a later Honeymooners' skit: Harry Vederci.
Some couple whose last name was Hill actually named their kid Bunker.
Sal Minella
Bob Wire
Chuck Wagon
Richard Hurtz
Mona Lot
Willie Maker
...
Justin Case
Homer Sexual
Hugh Jass
Amanda Huginkiss
Seymour Butts
I.P. Freely
03/11/2000
Ben Dover
Neil Downe
O.Howie Farted
Seymour Hare
Or Seymour Butts
Henry Longfinger
and Claude Balls
A whole list of these names was on book chat on last night's (this morning's) episode of SNL.
Since you have been oinking so loudly about off-topic posts, why don't you take your own such wallowings to your own off-topic forum?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There needs to be a consensus to move it there. In addition, the person to whom you are responding must be a member. Why don't you join?
Then there's:
Ima Dufus
Rick Shaw (I knew a fellow by that name in college)
Ida Nough
Hatta Nuff
Lota Dough
avid
How about Doug Graves
Getting alittle racy there's:
Dick Gazinya
since my new found fame, i have registered the "heypaul" handle, and it is only to be used on a subject heading with messages directly relating to me--- any continued use of the "heypaul" logo with adolescent posts about funny names will be an unauthorized use of my handle and viewed as a possible attempt to demean and diminish the "heypaul" logo--- the "heypaul" logo usually assures the reader of highly thought out, well written material... people have the right to expect such from posts bearing my name...
OK, how about:
Bill Melater
Hal E. Tosis
Jim Nasticks
U. R. Anass
Do you remember the Delany cards?
Mike Hunt
avid
Your post reminds me of a budget shortfall in one of our school districts some years ago. One of our news radio stations was interviewing the school superintendent about this and how they were going to come up with enough money, and he remarked that someone suggested holding a bake sale. He took it in stride, and quipped, "Well it would have to be the biggest one in history."
Like Rondey Dangerfield you just get no respect. My wife won't even let me play your recording of the R-9 on the CC in the car :-( and it's just no fun playing it while I'm alone.
Mr t__:^)
While at the check-out counter of a Duane-Reed on my lunch-hour today, I thought I saw a news article in the Enquirer on popular TV-sitcom dad Bill Cosby getting caught in an compromising position with a "starlet" inside an R-9 cab?
Can this be confirmed????
If so, does that count as media attention for our beloved heypaul?
Doug aka BMTman
HeyPaul,
You too can be featured at rapidtransit.net.
We require:
1) An interesting topic.
2) Good writing skills.
3) Inclusion of illustrations a big plus.
3) Authors whose reflection appears in mirrors.
4) Availability for press interviews at all times of month, including full moons.
Send an outline of your story idea and affidavits from two doctors (graduates of U.S. medical universities preferred) to thirdrail@rapidtransit.net.
Tell us Groucho sent you.
Those bastards at the New York Times make mistakes, and don't even acknowledge them when I send them corrections. I'm referring to a gaffe a year ago involving a write up in Footlights, on page E1, where they mentioned that it was under Peter the Great's intervention that Russia switched to the Gregorian Calendar, when in fact, it was Lenin. Did they post a correction? NO! Of course, I'm sure my name wouldn't be on it, as it's not like I sent anything that should be in the Letters section as opposed to the Corrections section.
you're not telling the folks the whole story---
the way i understood it, you sent your correction in with a picture of yourself, and offered to do a corrections column if they would put your picture and name up as a byline
well-- the times loss is our gain, as we are fortunate here on subtalk to have your critical eye on everyone's posts......
That is not true! This was before I was a NOTORIOUS P.I.G. when nobody cared about the fact I wasn't a member of the ruling species. The I discovered the BOARSHEVIKS and the PIGVOLUTION! I sent no pictures!
They would have been too embarrased about being corrected by pigs:-)
By the time Russia adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1917, the Julian calenday had gotten so far out of whack that 13 days had to be dropped instead of 11, as was the case in 1582.
Does anyone have any further info on the "last day" of the PCCs?
It was supposed to be March 24th, but it has also been suggested that that date may be postponed somewhat. I'd like to take a vacation trip down to NYC on or about the last day; it would be nice to put it off till the Spring (longer days/better pix) if possible.
Can anyone help?
There was a thread yesterday that said it has been postponed - no definate date yet, though. I'm sure we'll hear when it is known.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks, er Mr (or perhaps Ms, though I will assume it's Mr since transit buffs are generally male).....Anon - e - Mouse.
Yes, it's Mr. - at least I hope so, considering I'm father of four and grandfather of two :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anyone have any further info on the "last day" of the PCCs?
It was supposed to be March 24th, but it has also been suggested that that date may be postponed somewhat. I'd like to take a vacation trip down to NYC on or about the last day; it would be nice to put it off till the Spring (longer days/better pix) if possible.
Can anyone help?
http://www.mostnewyork.com/2000-03-07/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-5920
.asp
A daily news article about two people who got hurt this morning train serfing. It was abot five this morning at the 74st station on the Queens Blvd. line.
it was earlier then that I heard it on a traffic report at 12:30 last night that service was suspended for a police investigation
An old question arises again:
To what degree is government (or any organization) responsible to protect people from their own stupidity? When are otherwise intelligent people no longer responsible for their own behavior?
That URL doesn't work:
Try this: 2 Injured "Subway Surfing," In Hosp.
While on my ride home yesterday, I spied a set of R-68's (no, I neglected to get the #s) at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, on the southbound side. The cars had 'B' Line destination markings on the ends.
The camera crew was setting up their lighting equipment and I saw some of the station pillars dressed up with green masking material and prop signage indication 'Spring Street'.
I assume this filming may be going on today as well, so I will try to get the car #'s if I can.
Doug aka BMTman
Oy!!! There is no Spring Street on the B Line. There isn't even one in the B-Division. How come they couldn't borrow an R62A and sign them up as a 6 Train?
I can only assume that the production crew would end up changing the route marker to A, C, or E so that the show would have some accuracy (even though the R-68's don't run on the 8th Ave. Line).
Doug aka BMTman
There is a Spring St Station on the B-Divison. It is on 6 Ave, local stop on A, C, E.
Spring Street is also on the C and E trains as well as the 6.
Um, Spring and 6th Ave is a local stop on the C and E. I'm sure I'm not the first to point that out.
YES there is - Spring Street on the "C" and "E", Chinese blue tile with even darker blue border.
I can't picture Spring Street with Hoyt Street Kelly Green tile. Did they leave the wall tile as "Hoyt" or did the car cover it?
Wayne
I recall seeing Hoyt wall tiles left alone. I believe the cars blocked out most of the Hoyt wall tiles that would be in the shot.
Doug aka BMTman
Interesting factoid about that Hoyt/Schermerhorn platform ....
There's signs for Hoyt street on the outside of the pillars nearest to the wall. You'd have to be ON THE TRAIN to see the signs.
Now considering that side of the platform hasn't seen service since 1945 makes me wonder why those relatively new signs that say "Hoyt" were placed there ... where they CAN'T BE SEEN BY ANYONE .....
(If anyone has my 7/23/95 D-Type video, you can see the signs on the pillars as the Nostalgia Train is returning to the Transit Museum ....)
--Mark
Is that on the tiled pillar side or the I-beam side? I recall seeing black/white signs flush on the green I-beams on that side.
They have matching (new) hanging signs on the closed platforms as well.
When did they close the far east end exit/mezzanine?
Wayne
FWIW, in Crocodile Dundee 2, the side with the tiled pillars was used.
Let's see, how many disguises does that make?
In Nighthawks, it was dressed up as 57th St., then 42nd St.
In The Warriors, it was made up to be 96th St.
In Crocodile Dundee 2, it played itself! Imagine that!! (They didn't have to dub in those door chime sounds for the R-38s, IMHO.)
And now this.
More recently, it was used in "Now and Again" - I think it was the episode where Mr. Weisman has to track down the "Eggman" who uses genetically-altered eggs to spread a deadly poison, and of course he has to target the NYC subways. An R-68 was used in this episode. Mrs. Weisman gets kissed on the subway platform by her reconstructed husband. However, I don't recall seeing what name was used to disguise Hoyt-Schemerhorn
Wall Street. They show a closeup of the hero next to a pillar shortly before the kissing shot in the intro each week.
I wenty through there today and saw the following names on the tile- in a different type style:
Spring, Wall St, Delancey, Franklin.
They appear to be vinyl stick on signs
THAT'S a busy station!
You sure it was Law & Order? Among other shows, SVU, (the L&O spinoff), Third Watch and Spin City film around NYC, as well as any number of films (Shaft 2000 is currently shooting) and location shooting for NYPD Blue is also done in the city.
-Hank
I was riding the first car and the T/O must've stuck his head out the window because I heard him ask one of the technicians on the station platform what was being shot, and the guy answered 'Law & Order'.
Doug aka BMTman
On the subject of trains on TV, does anybody out there watch The Sopranos and also have a familiarity with Metro North or LIRR equipment? There is a shot of a train in the opening credits that don't appear to have NJ Transit markings.
I saw the Spring St sign midday on my LOCAL A, I thnk somethig happened at Chambers?
$64,000 question?
The C line name is known as:
A. Chester
B. Charlie
C. Christina
I heard the A line T/O mention it to me when I was talking to her at Jay St......
3TM
This is easy for all you SubTalkers..........
Can i use one of my lifelines?
It's B. Charlie, BTW, where do they get the names from for these lines anyway?
I don't know where these came from but can someone add to this list?
B - Bravo
C - Charlie
D - Delta
N - Nancy
Q - Quincy
Names like "November" for N (which has superseded "Nancy") are military in origin.
David
The "official" phonetic alphabet, also used in air traffic control, is:
alpha
bravo
charlie
delta
echo
foxtrot
golf
hotel
india
juliet
kilo
lima
mike
november
oscar
papa
quebec
romeo
sierra
tango
uniform
victor
whiskey
xray
yankee
zulo
R: Romeo.
3TM
N: Never
R: Rarely
A... Apple
E... Echo
F... Fox
R... Robert (alternate is Romeo)
As another poster said N is sometimes Nancy. Depending who is at control you may hear either name or even both! When they do tower checks of the radio they'll call "Stilwell Nancy".
Terminal shortcut names :
South Ferry......... The Ferry
World Trade Center.. The Trade
White Plains Rd..... The Plains
Phonetic Alphabet. Used a lot on the radio. There's an official version, used by HAM operators and the military, and the unofficial version, which varies from user to user.
Phonetic Alphabet:
A-Alpha
B-Bravo
C-Charlie
D-Delta
E-Echo
F-Fox (or Foxtrot)
G-Golf
H-Hotel
I-India
J-Juliet
K-Kilo
L-Lima
M-Mike
N-November
O-Oscar
P-Papa
Q-Quebec
R-Romeo
S-Sierra
T-Tango
U-Uniform
V-Victor
W-Whisky
X-X-ray
Y-Yankee
Z-Zulu
FDNY usually uses these, NYPD usually uses names or colors (ie, Y-Yellow, N-Nancy) Each department using a code usually develops their own, and makes all persons use it, lest someone be misunderstood.
-Hank
NYPD uses "Zebra" for Z
Last night about 6:15pm passing thru H&S , at the west end of the southbound wall my little eye did spy "Wall" "Fulton" "Delancy" and
"Spring"
Thats a busy station!
There is also " Franklin" and all these are repeated at various locations!
Let's hope it's still there Monday - I've got to check THIS out.
Wayne
YOU JUST WON $64,000..........
3TM
I've heard it referred to as Charlie.
Were there ever doors at the entrances to subway stations?
The doors at the entrance to the Transit Museum seem like vintage doors. I understand they have to lock up the museum at night, but they look like they could have been original to the station.
If there were doors, I'm assuming they were removed due to vandalism.
So were there doors? When did they disappear?
I remember there being doors at the entrances to stations along the Brighton line in the 50s and 60s.
-- Ed Sachs
Most elevated and surface-level station entries have doors, but I don't think I've ever seen doors on an underground entrance.
-Hank
Were there ever doors at the entrances to subway stations?
The doors at the entrance to the Transit Museum seem like vintage doors. I understand they have to lock up the museum at night, but they look like they could have been original to the station.
If there were doors, I'm assuming they were removed due to vandalism.
So were there doors? When did they disappear?
Don't know about IND stations but, I do know that the Bedford Park Blvd. Staion on the 4 line in the Bronx has doors. I tused to have more but the removed the inner ones some years ago.
I do believe however that the doors on the IND station used as the Transit museum were added as they do not have them on the back stairway or any of the 6 closed stairways in that station.
Peace,
Andee
Thanks for the info.
03/14/2000
One reason why the Transit Museum has those doors is to keep out the cold in the winter. So the reason is weather related.
Bill Newkirk
Only place I know of with doors is the IRT Control House entrance to the Bowling Green station (4,5). Of course it wasn't built as an "entrance".
Shifting gears, is this the only underground station that has a fare control at ground level?
no there is the 72nd st station and many others
Clark Street IRT also has doors and a street level entrance
How about a couple of blocks away at South Ferry with the big glass doors and turnstiles on the street level.
Broadway-East New York has doors and fare control at ground level, after which you can go downstairs to the 'A' and 'C' or up the escalator to the 'J', 'L' and 'Z'.
I've never gotten off at any of these stations, but according to the line descriptions elsewhere in this site, Hunts Point on the '6', Grant Avenue on the 'A' (whose entrance structure can be seen from Conduit Boulevard) and Bushwick/Aberdeen on the 'L' also have street level fare control. These are the last stops before their resepctive lines become elevated, so they're probably less shallow than is normal.
This may be cheating due to topography, but if you enter 181st ('A'), 190th ('A') or 191st ('1','9') through their long access tunnels rather than down the elevators, their fare controls could be considered 'street level'.
Also, street level fare control is at Franklin Avenue, this counts because it connects to the IND subway and is the only practical access to the Queens bound platform.
One can also count Pelham Parkway on the 5, if one counts Pelham Parkway as an underground station.
It's been a while, but I think there is a surface level building at 161 Street-Yankee Stadium.
There still is a 72 Street style control house at 96 Street, although it is no longer the entrance to the subway, it's the "Broadway Mall Community Center" or something of the sort. Other stations further up "The Boulevard" used to have these too, Columbia University comes to mind.
All the stations on the Dyre Ave. line have doors on the entrances. Of these, the Pelham Parkway station is fully underground.
Got a copy of the TA operating budget. It is pretty clear that fares have to be raised or service will have to be cut to pay for the labor raises and other things. The TA will be operating in the red this year, wiping out the accumulated cash reserve -- even if it gets $133 million in "unspecified additional assistance."
My guess is the fares will be increased this November -- after the Senate election, but two years before Pataki gets voted on in 2002.
The question is, will the TA do something innovative this time, such as raising prices for rush hours only? And will the commuter railroads also have a fare increase, or will Pataki avoid one by diverting a larger share of state aid to the LIRR and MetroNorth rather than the T.A.?
Personally, I'd rather see a $2.00 fare for rush hours than a $1.75 fare around the clock. Perhaps with a high rush hour fare, the TA could afford to actually cut the off peak fare.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
I gotta get me a TA job!!!
MARTA is thinking about raising it's fares, too. Up to $1.75. Weekly and Monthly transcards, too. This sucks. I guess I'll have to look harder under the sofa for change to get to school.
Lets face it, prices go up. Milk, gas, steel, etc. When prices go up, so must workers wages, and also, the expenses for the company increase. Despite that we all wish the fare were still a nickel, a case can be easily made that it is the nickel fare that led to the current subsidized operation. Of course, you could (according to my economics professor, who gave me an F) extend the price theory until it is an endless spiral, rising out of control upwards (this is usually where Alan Greenspan comes in, and raises interest rates 1/4 of a point.) I fully expect to see an appropriate fare raise within the next year, and in true NY fashion, the TA will ask for $2, and they'll get $1.60-$1.75 (Just like they asked for $1.25 and got $1.15; $1.35 and got $1.25; $1.75 and got $1.50)
It's time, it's fully expected. We're in the midst of the greatest economic expansion the US has ever seen, and not to expect consumer prices to rise is foolish.
-Hank
You haven't taken into account the effect of the govet's budget surplus on the money supply.
In Queens if you ride the "private" fleet of coaches off-peek the fare is $1.00, if you pay in cash ... business has picked up some due to this. So, they COULD do this if they wanted to.
Mr t__:^)
While they could do an off-peak discount for MetroCard ONLY, I forsee problems-- lines of people waiting for the peak time to expire so they get the reduced fare. I also forsee people storming up to the booth-"This *@$%& took off the peak fare when it should be off-opeak fare. While I have no official info, I can see "I'm sorry- you'll have to send it to 370 Jay Street."
Please--NO, No,No!
I too expect an increase--personal opinion, not fact, due to rising gas (Diesel) prices. I would hope to simplify life for us that it be $1.75 or $2.00 rather than $1.65 or some strange number that would require stocking of dimes and nickels (yeah- more to count and no added time to count it all. Even now- many times we have trouble changing station agents due to customers. We can not close the window like ther supermarket- we must stay open!)
**disclaimer: this post is personal opinion and not official statement or policy of MTA or NYCT.
Once all the stations have MVMs and the use of tokens is discontinued, it won't matter what odd number is picked for a single fare, which will probably only be available at an MVM.
The DOT "private" carriers lowered their off-peak fares because Rudy ordered DOT to order them to do so. The companies don't need to care because [1] their profit margins are contractually guaranteed, and [2] the fares go to the City's general fund, with the off-peak fare shortfall made up by increased taxes.
I had advocated off peak discounts where discounts were being discussed. At least the next time they have to raise fares (which I predict will come after the election) they can raise they at rush hours only.
Do you really think the TA will do it before the Throughway Authority?
Rush hour fares do increase revenue, but have a down side - people will bunch at the stations awaiting the end of the rush fare period to enter. This happens every weekday on the DC Metro. Folks will not enter the faregate until the off-peak time starts, since in DC your fare is based on the time of entry.
Operationaly, a rush hour fare will only be implemented when the system is 100% MetroCard. A stored value system is the only way it can be done, and BTW, a stored value card opens the door to distance based fares. (See DC Metro for an example.)
(Rush hour fares do increase revenue, but have a down side - people will bunch at the stations awaiting the end
of the rush fare period to enter).
What you need is a step down system. You don't go from $2.00 to $1.50 in one tick of the clock. You step up and down a nickel every five minutes.
(Operationaly, a rush hour fare will only be implemented when the system is 100% MetroCard).
You can simply charge token users the peak hour fare for the privlege of using a token.
(A stored value system is the only way it can be done),
The monthly fare card price could just be adjusted to assume a certain number of peak hour trips. Obviously, having paid for it, monthly card holders wouldn't try to avoid peak hours, but others would. An off-peak only monthly -- not usable during rush hours -- is another possibility.
(and BTW, a stored value card opens the door to distance based fares).
Not in NYC -- there is no swipe to exit, so no way to measure distance. That was intentional (and political). In reality, the distance based fare system is that the subway is zone 1, and the commuter rail is other zones. The outer areas of trhe DC metro are the equivalent of commuter rail.
how else are they going to pay for those new "S" JUNK R - 142 s subway cars !!!
With the extra money that NY State will get because people in California didn't want to fill out their census form.
-Hank
The system IS 100% Metrocard. It's unlikely that tokens will survive the next fare hike.
[The DOT "private" carriers lowered their off-peak fares because Rudy ordered DOT to order them to do so. The companies don't need to care because [1] their profit margins are contractually guaranteed, and [2] the fares go to the City's general fund, with the off-peak fare shortfall made up by increased taxes.]
I get the feeling that you've upset with what our Mayor did here ?
The point was that the TA/MTA COULD do the same. ALSO any revenue short fall would be made up by the subsidy from the Governer & Mayor, so what's the difference ?
Off peek our fleet runs mostly empty, now they are a little fuller, AND maybe there are a few less of those customers fighting for YOUR seat ... I think that's a good thing.
Larry and others have made the point before that the current system can't handle too many more folks at rush hour, so we need to find some way to spread out the rush hour. And if you need to raise the fare to cover increased cost why not RE-THINK this one fare policy for the whole system. If it cost more to come in from the Rockaways again would some folks get back into their cars ... probally. If it cost extra to transfer to LI Bus would some folks get back on the LIE ... I think so. Personally I think the MTA has been thinking about this for some time now ... that's why they will probally convert the MetroCard from a Dip/Swipe to a Smart card ... just look at the Washington/Chicago models (same farebox/turnstile mfg.)
Mr t__:^)
"...any revenue shortfall would be made up by the subsidy from the Governor & Mayor..."
The errors in that argument, of which all Sub/BusTalkers should be fully aware, are as follows:
1. The Governor's "subsidy" is not, not, NOT a subsidy. It consists entirely of sales tax revenues paid by city residents (0.25% out of the 8.25%). By law, that money is dedicated for Transit, yet it's disbursed ONLY WHEN George feels like sending it back down the Hudson to benefit those who actually paid it.
2. The Mayor's "subsidy" is not, not, NOT a subsidy. It consists entirely of payments (from the Board of Education) for acting as a contract carrier of students who would otherwise be riding yellow school buses - by law, student transportation is the duty of the school district, not the transit carrier. However, Rudy has not actually made such payments (at least in full) for quite some time now.
"It consists entirely of payments (from the Board of Education) for acting as a contract carrier of students who would otherwise be riding yellow school buses"
THANK GOD this deal exists.
Jack Arthur aka School Bus Hater, nka Pigs of Royal Island.
You didn't finish quoting from my earlier post.
Yes, the Board of Education deal exists; however, Rudy has a habit of not honoring it.
Then why is the MTA still letting the kids on its buses?
Because School Busses are total crap.
This is one reason why the windows are scratched up. on many occasions, I have had to call control center for windows kicked out on the storm doors( side doors) of my train. We then had to isolate the affected cars- thus delaying service for everyone. These kids continue to scratch windows, pull emergency cords, and hold doors. I cannot wait for the new pick to start- I have a later run, starting at 5:30pm. At least the later part of rush hour isn't that bad. The only problem will be in summer when school is out and the kiddies will be "Joy Riding" late into the night with their "40's", weed, and stogies.
Then we will have another problem to tackle. The police are susposed to check but they are never around when you need them!
Its really awful the way so many kids go out and trash things. I certainly didn't do that when I was younger.
I read a book on how to handle toddlers once, which I think is also relevant to teens. The book said that parents turn their kids into monsters by giving them attention when they act out, but ignoring them when they are good (and therefore not causing trouble). The result -- to get attention, toddlers act out.
Teens also have a need for attention, and there is all kinds of attention showered on the assholes that cause trouble. In NYC other kids are ignored. You see that in the public schools. "Oh great, that kid keeps quiet and is learning, what a break -- I'll use my limited energy to deal with the troublemakers."
The TA could probably help itself by giving the subway and bus riding kids who are NOT vandals an opportunity to ride with a T/0 in the cab once a year, or something, calling them honorary transit workers, or something. Or, the TA could have the local teens "adopt a station" and hang out there if they keep it clean, and call the cops when any a-holes arrive and start causing trouble. Its the same idea as natural pesticides -- you control aphids by unleasing a bunch of ladybugs, or something.
[The TA could probably help itself by giving the subway and bus riding kids who are NOT vandals an opportunity to ride with a T/0 in the cab once a year, or something, calling them honorary transit workers, or something. Or, the TA could have the local teens "adopt a station" and hang out there if they keep it clean, and call the cops when any a-holes arrive and start causing trouble. Its the same idea as natural pesticides -- you control aphids by unleasing a bunch of ladybugs, or something.]
Hmmm, I like the pesticide analogy. Teen vandalism is a big headache, but nothing that a couple gallons of Malathion won't cure.
Did my post i made about a week ago did anything about this subject?
This is one reason why the windows are scratched up. on many occasions, I have had to call control center for windows kicked out on the storm doors( side doors) of my train. We then had to isolate the affected cars- thus delaying service for everyone. These kids continue to scratch windows, pull emergency cords, and hold doors. I cannot wait for the new pick to start- I have a later run, starting at 5:30pm. At least the later part of rush hour isn't that bad. The only problem will be in summer when school is out and the kiddies will be "Joy Riding" late into the night with their "40's", weed, and stogies.
Then we will have another problem to tackle. The police are susposed to check but they are never around when you need them!
Its really awful the way so many kids go out and trash things. I certainly didn't do that when I was younger.
I read a book on how to handle toddlers once, which I think is also relevant to teens. The book said that parents turn their kids into monsters by giving them attention when they act out, but ignoring them when they are good (and therefore not causing trouble). The result -- to get attention, toddlers act out.
Teens also have a need for attention, and there is all kinds of attention showered on the assholes that cause trouble. In NYC other kids are ignored. You see that in the public schools. "Oh great, that kid keeps quiet and is learning, what a break -- I'll use my limited energy to deal with the troublemakers."
The TA could probably help itself by giving the subway and bus riding kids who are NOT vandals an opportunity to ride with a T/0 in the cab once a year, or something, calling them honorary transit workers, or something. Or, the TA could have the local teens "adopt a station" and hang out there if they keep it clean, and call the cops when any a-holes arrive and start causing trouble. Its the same idea as natural pesticides -- you control aphids by unleasing a bunch of ladybugs, or something.
[The TA could probably help itself by giving the subway and bus riding kids who are NOT vandals an opportunity to ride with a T/0 in the cab once a year, or something, calling them honorary transit workers, or something. Or, the TA could have the local teens "adopt a station" and hang out there if they keep it clean, and call the cops when any a-holes arrive and start causing trouble. Its the same idea as natural pesticides -- you control aphids by unleasing a bunch of ladybugs, or something.]
Hmmm, I like the pesticide analogy. Teen vandalism is a big headache, but nothing that a couple gallons of Malathion won't cure.
Did my post i made about a week ago did anything about this subject?
[2. The Mayor's "subsidy" is not, not, NOT a subsidy. It consists entirely of payments (from the Board of Education) for acting as a contract carrier of students who would otherwise be riding
yellow school buses - by law, student transportation is the duty of the school district, not the transit carrier. However, Rudy has not actually made such payments (at least in full) for quite some time
now.]
That's not exactly true ... at the "private" bus depots: Our cost are covered by: receipts from the farebox (some routes almost make money); NY State funds; and NYC in several ways. School kids at 1/2 fare and free; Sr./Disabled (the Station Agent still issues paper to those who don't have MCs we send in the paper & get cash); "Blocks" when the subway has an unscheduled outage the Station Agent issues paper, we send them in & get 1.50 each; if we still come up short Rudy writes a check after we document why. There are other revenue sources that we have to apply for and I have left some detail out about or subsidy payments, but maybe this makes it a little clearer.
The point is that the TA has this big pot of money while the privates have to fight for a lot of scraps to make ends meet. It's a constant struggle, especially if one of the big checks is late.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the MTA or nycDOT and my comments are myown and don't necessarily reflect the position of my employeer.
Mr t__:^)
A clarification is in order:
NYCT has a big LEGISLATED pot of money, which Rudy and George raid or withhold at will. Witness the last fare increase (intended to punish NYC residents for voting for Cuomo in 1994): George completely withheld NYC Transit's portion of the mass transportation sales-tax account for two years, in order to pay for upstate pork barrels; Rudy actually betrayed his city by endorsing that maneuver. Meanwhile, the Metro-North and LIRR portions of the same account were partially disbursed.
On the other hand, the DOT-sponsored "privates" make money just by existing, because all of their expenses are covered (including liability settlements and campaign contributions) and their profit margins are guaranteed.
how else are they going to pay for those new TRANVERSE CAB....
non railfan window equipped R - 142 s ???????
YOU GOT IT !!!!!!! A TRANSIT FARE INCREASE !!!
like a $ 2.00 TWO DOLLAR FARE TO RIDE TRANSVERSE CAB
EQUIPPED SUBWAY CARS !!!!! ( like this bomb we built in L.A.
the los angeles red line subway to nowhere !!!!!!
I think the next fare increase should be to $1.80.
Tokens: No more
SingleRide: $1.80
Metrocard: $18.00 for 11 rides ($19.80 value)
Fun Pass: $6.00
7-day: $20
30-day: $75.00
Express Bus: $3.60
Express Bus Plus 30-day: $144.00
Reduced Fare: $.90
7-day unlimited reduced: $10
30-day: $37.50
Metrocard prepaid pay-per-ride flavors:
$7.20
$18.00 ($19.80 in value)
$36.00 ($39.60 in value)
why mr pigs of island ???? what if you could not afford a fare of $ 1,80 one dollar eighty cents ???
why not a 50, CENT fare instead ??
maybe you are rich and well off but what about the rest of us working poor folks ??? EH ????
********** AND THEN NO MORE TOKENS ????? WHAT ?????!!!!!!!!! ***************
just like GASOLINE and DIESEL prices too dammed high working folks cant afford it !!!!!!!!
but of cource rich folks like yourself dont care !!!!!! ????
Fine. As long as your boss never gives you a raise again, then, additional years, we'll reduce your salary 25% every year. This way, we'll never have to raise transit fares again, because costs won't be going up for everyone, nor will wages, taxes, groceries, gas, cars...
People have the mindset that prices NEVER go up. Face reality, they do. And as prices go up, wages MUST go up, lest the workers be unable to afford to buy products. To pay those higher wages, guess what else has to go up?
It's called an economy!
-Hank
I think the MTA is crazy to hold the line on prices, and then have these big increases, now that Metrocard is on hand. It should just increase the fare by the level of employee wage/benefit increases each year. That will bring everyone around to reality -- wages and health care costs go up, fares also have to go up. It would lead to a sensible dialogue -- is that TWU increase fair, given that other people are also earning more? Than up goes the fare.
BTW, I'm told the fare has always approximated the cost of a slice. Factoring in the discounts, the fare price is behind. I'd rather see a fare increase than any other outcome here -- like deferred maintenance of a smaller capital program. I'd prefer a big rush hour increase to an across the board increase.
[BTW, I'm told the fare has always approximated the cost of a slice. Factoring in the discounts, the fare price is behind.]
A slice of pizza?
Yeah. Historicly, it seems that as the cost of a slice of pizza goes up, the price of a subway ride shortly follows.
-Hank
why mr pigs of island ???? what if you could not afford a fare of $ 1,80 one dollar eighty cents ???
why not a 50, CENT fare instead ??
maybe you are rich and well off but what about the rest of us working poor folks ??? EH ????
********** AND THEN NO MORE TOKENS ????? WHAT ?????!!!!!!!!! ***************
just like GASOLINE and DIESEL prices too dammed high working folks cant afford it !!!!!!!!
but of cource rich folks like yourself dont care !!!!!! ????
Fine. As long as your boss never gives you a raise again, then, additional years, we'll reduce your salary 25% every year. This way, we'll never have to raise transit fares again, because costs won't be going up for everyone, nor will wages, taxes, groceries, gas, cars...
People have the mindset that prices NEVER go up. Face reality, they do. And as prices go up, wages MUST go up, lest the workers be unable to afford to buy products. To pay those higher wages, guess what else has to go up?
It's called an economy!
-Hank
I think the MTA is crazy to hold the line on prices, and then have these big increases, now that Metrocard is on hand. It should just increase the fare by the level of employee wage/benefit increases each year. That will bring everyone around to reality -- wages and health care costs go up, fares also have to go up. It would lead to a sensible dialogue -- is that TWU increase fair, given that other people are also earning more? Than up goes the fare.
BTW, I'm told the fare has always approximated the cost of a slice. Factoring in the discounts, the fare price is behind. I'd rather see a fare increase than any other outcome here -- like deferred maintenance of a smaller capital program. I'd prefer a big rush hour increase to an across the board increase.
[BTW, I'm told the fare has always approximated the cost of a slice. Factoring in the discounts, the fare price is behind.]
A slice of pizza?
Yeah. Historicly, it seems that as the cost of a slice of pizza goes up, the price of a subway ride shortly follows.
-Hank
The latest article has the Big Dig's cost soaring over $14 billion, with the completion date pushed back past 2005. A sobering example for those who advocate public works in NYC. Looks like everyone is making a mint -- and they are going to drag this thing out as long as they can. The Big Dig got big bucks from the federal government because Tip O'Neil was speaker. No one is going to do that for NYC. Even so, The Big Dig is sucking up all the transportation money in Massachusetts.
I call it the Big Waste, because it's a lot of money dumped down the drain, made boston into a huge mess (I swear they change all the roads around everytime I'm there), and let's face it, highway expansion doesn't work.
Anyone wanna place bets on when the big mass transit push starts happening up there?
The Big Dig is as much about replacing deteriorating, inadequate infrastructure, much like the maligned Manhattan Bridge, as it is about expansion.
Actually, it's less about expansion, than it is about replaceing deteriorating infrastructure and creating more open space in the inner city. With the highway buried, the land will be used as a large park (or so the original plan said) similar to the Capitol Mall.
-Hank
Actually, its less about the road itself, and more a job program and profit bonanza, or at least that's how it turned out. That's what makes me afraid of the 2nd Ave. Once the construction contractors and unions have money coming in (not to mention the mafia), they'll never let it be finished.
You're just a ray of sunshine when it comes to government contracts, aint'cha? :)
-Hank
(Your just a ray of sunshine when it comes to government contracts)
I entered government 14 years ago as an optimist. Society is to blame.
No, Larry, the PURPOSE of government is to extort from the powerless and hand out to the powerful. Thus the big dig lame as it is fulfills the real needs of the system.
The end result is instead of a .6 mile underground sojurn through downtown Boston followed by 3.4 miles of daylight, we will have 3 miles in the dark followed by a 'suspension bridge' we don't need. And since that three miles will still back up frequently, it won't be any fun to drive either. *COUGH* #CHOKE# :(
Look at the bright side. Normally, Massachusetts (like New York, New Jersey and Connecticut) pays more money into the federal government than it gets out. Thanks to the big dig, it has been getting more out of the feds than it pays in for years. Yes it really is that costly. I guess Tip O'Neil and his pals in the construction industry/union figured money wasted locally is better than money wasted in the sunbelt. It really doesn't matter if its worth it if someone else pays. Now, of course, its so expensive that the Bay State may end up footing the excess bill.
Now about that Second Avenue Subway...
Actually, it's less about expansion, than it is about replaceing deteriorating infrastructure and creating more open space in the inner city. With the highway buried, the land will be used as a large park (or so the original plan said) similar to the Capitol Mall.
Large urban parkland? Watch the crime rate soar...
CH.
(Large urban parkland, watch the crime rate soar)
NYC's crime rate is now significantly below the national average. Boston's crime rate is now significantly below NYC.
At least it has one benefit.
All that nasty traffic will be hidden underground.
Out of sight, out of mind.
And while they're at it, they might as well build that oft-proposed connection between North and South stations.
I think it's safe to say that the Big Dig has reduced the likelihood of the North-South rail link being built anytime in the near future. There probably isn't a whole lot of enthusiasm for even more government money to be committed to another huge infrastructure project in central Boston.
Actually, as part of the project, they built the portion of the North-South connector that runs under the highway (just like the provisions for the IND second system)
-Hank
The way I understood it, what they did was to put in some walls deeper than needed for the highway tunnel alone, to be used as part of the North-South rail link if it's ever built. So yes, they've made provisions for it by installing some extra concrete (maybe they did some utility relocation too?), but nothing resembling an actual rail tunnel is there.
I remember back in 1993-94 when I told people in that area of the country that the Big Dig would cost at least $10 billion when the state estimates were still about $4 billion and they though I was crazy.
EXPENSIVE
Is there a plan to switch #2 and #5 north terminals, with #2 beginning at Dyre Avenue, running express mornings below E 180 Street to the west side, with all #5 beginning at E 241 St (Wakefield), running local to Grand Concourse, then Lex Express? If there is such a plan, what is the date for the switch of northern terminals? Thanks.
There is a plan to run all the Wakefield (#2 and the few #5 specials) express during rush hours, and running the #5 from Dyre as the local. But no terminal switch by either line has been discussed, although I've always supported this service change before.
Interesting.
The Dyre Avenue Line used to be the #2 and the White Plains Line was the #5. The terminals were switched in the early 1960's. Would be sort of wierd if they switched them back agian after almost 30 years.
#5 Dyres as Bronx locals during the rush and #2's as Expresses in the Bronx during the rush? What purpose would that serve?
To confuse and baffle Bronx riders...
The switch was made Sunday,6/13/65.
Aren't we confused enough as it is?
Nah, the TA has ingenious ways of confusing us even more. I expect more for a $1.50 token.
Until well into the nineties, Hagstrom's five-borough street atlas showed the route taken by the White Plains line as being East Side Service (two thin parallel lines) and the Dyre line as being West Side (one thick heavy line). They finally corrected it.
It doesn't surprise me that Hagstrom would have East Side and West Side routes confused. Hagstrom still thinks of the IRT and BMT as separate and distinct companies.
I thought the switch was in 1963. Anyway, the "thru exp" north of 180th St was one heck of a ride, if you had a good operator. Particularly, racing downgrade from Allerton to Burke Ave, then up to Gun Hill at full speed, round the curve and into the station. What a thrill. Of course, with today's speed restrictions, better off on the bus!
Joe Caronetti
Ever ride a redbird #2 train as it zips from Pelham Parkway around the curve into Bronx Park East at top speed? What a rush ...
Absolutely!! That was the other thrill of the 'thru exp'. Even today with track work it is possible to ride "down" the center track. Downgrade from Allerton thru Pel Pkwy and around the curve. Should have seen the Lo-V's and earlier "R" types. Great moments in transit riding.
Joe Caronetti
Why did they ever discontinue using the center track from 180th St. to Gun Hill Rd? I remember that from the early 60's.
Bob Sklar
Probably the people who used Pelham Parkway and Bronx Park East got pissed off at watching expresses whiz on by. It's the very same reason that F express service on Hillside Ave was discontinued in 1992.
I asked the webmaster at the hoboken terminal site about seeing Amtrak trains on the Lackawanna Cutoff which will probably be starting after the 63 St and Manny B work is done. This is what he said:With the cutoff being owned by the State of New Jersey, the service on the
cutoff will more likely be NJ Transit. Also, there are no plans for electric
service to extended west of Dover.
The only market for Amtrak in this case would be New York to
Binghamton/beyond. A New York-Binghamton train might be a NJT/MTA operation,
or even NYS&W. Beyong Binghamton, however, Amtrak would probably step in.
However, to answer your question, on the startup of Lackawanna Cutoff
operations, the chances of Amtrak running on the cutoff are close to zero.
What do you think about this service and modifying NJT stations are welcome
Well as with anything there are pros and cons.
Pro) Train Service on the Slatrford Cutt Off
Con) Me not able to crawl around on the Slateford Cutt Off any more.
That line is truely and engineering marvel. Built in 1909-1911 it was the first real use of poured, re-enforced concreate in US railroad construction. The bridge over the Paulins Kill is simply breath taking. As it is you can get down onto the archway via man-holes on the track bed. There is a walkway built on the arch with arched cut-outs in the vertical supports and ladder rungs on the steep portions. In the support piers, from where the arch starts to to track bed, it is a giant, hollow ressonance chamber. The arch is such a cool place that I had my senior yearbook picture taken there. Aside from the bridge the line boasts the earthen fill over the Peaquest Creek. At 5 miles long and 100 feet high it is the largest railroad fill in the world. Other features on the line include stations at Blairstown, Johnsburg, Greendell and Slateford/Water Gap, the tunnel at Rosedale and and the viaduct over the Delaware River.
I can see how this line would make a wonderful transit corridor. It goes right through the new sprall that is growing along I-80. It has no grade crossings and it is relitivly level. No matter what happens, the Slateford Cutt-Off is one of the greatest engenering marvels ever abandonned.
I agree completely - I've spent some time there myself. I also walked the Rosedale tunnel and traced out the old Blairstown RR. I believe there were 4 viaducts identical to the Paulins Kill, the most spectaular being the Tunkhannock (sp?), still in service. Also do you know the Slate Belt Electric Railway trolley passed directly under the Delaware River Viaduct?
It may be unlikely (as mentioned in a subsequent post) that the CNJ will be reactivated west of High Bridge, since the ROW was breached when I-78 was built. Nor is it likely that NS would welcome the addition of a parallel rail line - they want the old L&HR so they can get directly from the south to the Yellow Freight facility in Maybrook. Since they can't get into New England except by Guilford it's likely they will dump any TOFC on I-84 there. Also NS and CP/StL&H recently raised the roof in the ex-LV Pattenberg Tunnel so its OK for stacks now. Another reason to let the CNJ lie fallow. Also, the DL&W catenary is way too low for much other than Plate C clearances.
An interesting point:
Arthur Imperatore the APA Trucking magnate tried to buy the old E-L from Dover west into Ohio shortly after Conrail was formed. But Conrail wouldn't sell. Insead they dismantled the ROW in New Jersey to force the traffic onto the LV and NYC River Line. The grand plan was to sell the fill to NY City to use for Westway and obliterate it completely. So in some measure we have the fall of Westway to thank for the survival of the Lackawanna Cut-Off.
I see commuter service as far as Scranton or Wilkes-Barre a possibility, particularly if Midtown Direct with dual-mode locomotives is possible. The Monroe County Rail Authoriy is pushing it, and a good part of the real estate dealing is done. The developers in the Poconos would love it. Martz and a few other bus lines already have commuter service as far as Stroudsburg and Wilkes-Barre.
The preceeding is opinion and hearsay as related to me over the years, no great source of infallible wisdom or crystal ball was available.......
Binghamton to New York is almost 200 miles. That's definitely an Amtrak run. Four hours in a traditional MTA commuter train would not be a pleasant experience.
Amtrak would probably not be inclined to use the cutoff due to LackaMoney.
If they do it, it would be in direct competition with Greyhound, which has a route between New York, Scranton, Binghamton, Ithaca, Rochester, Buffalo, and Toronto. Rail service instead of bus service would work well. I've been considering the matter hypothetically myself.
Hey, while we're at it, how about some service to Easton/Bethlehem/Allentown? I read somewhere that NJT may extend (Raritan Valley?) service to Phillipsburg on the east shore of the Delaware River. Why not go farther? It doesn't have to be Amtrak. It doesn't have to be NJT either. Why are there only two choices: Long Distance or Commuter? Why can't 2 or 3 states get together and form a sort of regional rail agency? Give CSX a cut of the profits and provide some mail/express business on the route. Allentown could conceivabley be a hub for NYC and Philadelphia. Completely hypothetical, of course, but we can dream.
This route is much more likley. NJT can work with the abandonned CNJ main line (think it still has track over the whole distance), it can get traffic from a busy freeway corridor and NS would be eagar to get an emergency alternative to the Pattenburg Tunnel. NJT could make a nice profit from NS dimention trains or detours due to tunnel maintainence. I don't really see NJT going past Easton because if it went A-B-E, that metro area along would demand some sort of freaquent inter-city service. The area is large enough to demand such a service, but it is not large enough to make a single line rail connection anywhere near viable.
Other viable rail projects include Philly to Reading. Anything besides Commuter rail would be a joke. Much of the NS Harrisburg Line is a 4 track RoW (currently 2) and the section into Reading is a double track RoW (currently 1). Don't forget that there is a station building (Franklin St.), a new station site w/ parking (Outer Station) and pleanty of yard space (Reading Yard). SEPTA could slap in some track, limit service to 5-7 major stations, and then run hi(er)-speed trains. If hell froze over I could see SEPTA re-vanping the PRR line fron Norristown to Philly, using it for express service for Reading trains and electrify the whole thing.
PS: If SEPTA does go all into Reading they might want to consider running special sports extras from Reading, over the hi-line and down to the sports complex. I have heard many complaints on sports radio about the drive down 422 to see a game. Also, train service could allow for increased alcohol consumption. I was thinking of sports themed trainsets that had interiors that could be easily hosed out.
Does anyone know for sure if the CNJ tracks still go through into Easton? Someone told me that when the last three NJ miles of I 78 were built it cut off the ROW. Easton itself has (or had) both the CNJ and LV stations to which trains from either line can (could) be routed.
Well I-78 crosses The CNJ at 2 points I believe that the eastern crossing mear Bloomsbury crosses over the RoW via a bridge. Also the CNJ connects with the lehigh Line west of Bloomsbury so trains can access the Central Secondary which runs on the CNJ RoW for a few miles (MP 66.6-60.1). My ETT (albeit a few years old) indicates that the Central Sec. runs all the way to the division post with NJT at MP 60.1. The track is O of S b/t 62.4 and 60.1. So this, and what I have observed passing over the RoW on Rt. 31 leads me to believe that the track is intact from CONN at MP 71 on the Lehigh Line to High Bridge. I-78 may have very well cut the RoW where it crosses it a little east of Alpha, but I also think that the tracks are intact in the Easton, Ph'burg area. To put the line back in service would require laying new track and putting in a bridge on I-78 (which the federal hwy fund might pay for).
Althought the Pattenburg tunnel might be cleared for stacks, its still a bottleneck. What if service on the line increases or what if a train blows up in the tunnel? It would be good for NS to have the option of moving freight along a non-tunnel route. They would get on the line at CONN and get off at Bound Brook. This type of emergency service could help NJT pay for the line.
The right-of-way is severed in many places. I'm not saying it's impossible to put it back together, but it would be more expensive than it first appears.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From what I remember, one of the bridges on the south side of Alpha was removed almost 10 years ago.
I can't remember where, but I did read that Reading SEPTA service is a distinct possibility -- you know, planning stages -- and that a Quakertown, PA extension of service is even further along. I read enough that I can't remember exactly where I to this, so, sorry. I am certain, though, that SEPTA is also planning a suburb-to-suburb route -- a sort of crescent in PA embracing metro Philly.
The Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers website at
http://dvarp.org/
is the place to go for what you asked.
That site has the latest details on the proposed Schuykill Valley Metro. Seems that SEPTA want to gild the lily and build a 62-mile light rail line, rather than use a more realistic diesel-electric commuter train. Such an LRV which would be the longest of its kind in the country by more than double the mileage of the next longest LRV line. Seems SEPTA must have a real aversion to diesel, which is demonstrated by the fact that missing R8 Newtown service, (which would potentially have good patronage) has not been restored for more than 17 years.
The DVARP website also has the latest discussion on the Quakertown extension of the R5 Lansdale Service and the R4(??) Cross County Metro. Personallly, I think that the likelihood of either of these projects is less than that of a full length Second Avenue Subway in New York or even the other ancient long-discussed proposal of Roosevelt Boulevard Extension of the Philadelphia Broad Street Subway.
Thanks, Gary.
Hope you read this, as it's been a week already.
Heard on a charter trip in Philly (the Peter Witt car) last fall that, like the R8 Newtown service, there was a potential for trolley service to South Philly showing a potential for ridership. Wasn't there a temporary restoration at one point, which proved it? Understand the only trolley service kept were the subway-surface routes due to equipment shortage. Care to elaborate?
KP
The Flushing line's El part east of the rare A Division to B Division cross the platform transfer could easily be modified to handle the IND/BMT cars even the 75 footers although this would require running a S Stienway Street Shuttle as the new Flushing trains would operate to Coney Island or Whitehall St. as locals. The center express track would have to be removed for the 75 ft cars(I'd use R46)to operate
And what about the Flushing Line south of Queensboro Plaza? What would happen to that stretch of the line? And there are already two Broadway Locals.
Like I said a shuttle would cover that.
Considering the heavy usage the 7 has at Grand Central, it wouldn't make much sense to force all those people to transfer at QP to the BMT. Plus, sending the N, R plus another line through the 60th St tunnel would bottleneck things and limit the capacity of service between QP and Main Street. The 7 runs more cars per hour under the East River right now than any other line. Having a new B Division Flushing line share track space with two other B Division lines (or even just one other line if you routed the N thorugh the 63rd St. tunnel) could do nothing but cut capacity.
One wonders whether a modified-profile piece of equipment could be designed that would work with IND-BMT platforms but fit in the Steinway Tunnel.
This would allow excess 60th St. Tunnel capacity to be used on the Flushing Line, but not limit the total number of trains.
And larger trains mean more capacity.
I'm curious why you think there's extra 60th street tunnel capacity? Between the downhill grade timers in both directions, and the timers on the Queens-bound Queens side for diverging moves to the Queens Blvd. line, this tunnel is at or near capacity during rush hours. The NYCTA schedules show 5-8 minute headways for each line during AM rush, and 7-9 during PM rush. That's translates to peak usage of up to 24 trains per hour.
Sure, there's capacity off-peak, but that's true everywhere on the system.
Why was the Third Avenue El taken out of service so many years ago?
[Why was the Third Avenue El taken out of service so many years ago?]
Basically, a combination of three reasons:
1) Real estate interests wanted it removed so Third Avenue, freed from perpetual twilight and noise, would be ripe for development. It also was expected that development would spread eastward to Second and First avenues once the El was gone from Third. These things actually did happen.
2) The El structure was getting quite deteriorated. It could not support anything more modern than its ancient rolling stock.
3) It was _supposed_ to be replaced by the Second Avenue subway!
Also dont forget that the thinking at the time was that:
1. Change is progress, and progress is inevitable
2. Old is bad and new is good
3. Transit was passe and the auto was in the ascendency
4. The cycle of urban poverty could be broken by new housing and better surroundings for urban dwellers (urban renewal)
I disagree with all of the preceeding but that reflected the sensibilities of the time. Unfortunately (in my opinion) all attempts to quantify the role and meaning of "community" have failed, and removing transit routes has done little more than to remove access to jobs in poor neighborhoods.
Progress IS inevitable, it's just what your idea of progress is, that's where the disagreement is.
Hi all
From my apartment in Washington Heights, I overlook the amtrak tracks which run alongside the hudson river. Last week I saw an Amtrak turboliner.......very sleek with a red stripe only. I have lived here for years, but never saw one before. Id this nre, or have I just been missing this train everyday?
Michael B.
Because AMTRAK needs the equipment, this is the first of many to be overhauled and returned to service over the next couple of years.
Is the turboliner faster then the other Amtrak trains?
I think the one with the red stripe is not one of the new overhauls, but one that has been operating for some years as a result of a previous, experimental (and less extensive) overhaul. The first of the new overhauls isn't quite done yet (I think), and when finished the Turboliners should sport an Acela color scheme and logo. 2 are supposed to be finished in the next few months, and when they test out okay 5 more are to be redone. In theory they will be able to run up to 125 mph somewhere between Poughkeepsie and Albany, but I suspect that speed won't be achievable on very much of the route.
IIRC, the 4 Turboliners being rebuilt are currently owned by the State of NY, and will be providing Empire Corridor service (NYP to Albany and Buffalo) under the Acela Regional service brand as a 403(b) service.
-Hank
This is the first time I scan my slides into the internet. I haven't put my pictures on the internet since the first month of 1998 because I began to take slides on NYC Subway and it is very expensive to scan slides in a store.
Here are the pictures.
Photo 1: An R142A Train at Gun Hill Road.
Photo 2: Close View of R142A 7215.
Photo 3: LED Sign of R142A.
Photo 4: An R142A Train and an R29 #5 Train at Gun Hill Road.
Dave, you can these photos into the R142 car page.
Chaohwa
Thanks Chaohwa, I put them up on the R142 Page.
-Dave
Here is the pictures i took on 3/6/2000
#7215 with #8
#7220 with diamond #3.
I got a question are R142 only have one color just red??? or there is green or purple?
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Unfortunately, red only.
Chaohwa
Nice job ChaoHwa and Meaney! What day did you get those pics? I like them very much! I went up to the Bronx with B'way Jorge and got R142A 7215 at Pelham Pkwy today. Mine are in developer as we speak and once I get them, I'll scan them and put them up here on SubTalk.
Also got lot of RedBirds-only free time I have to say adieu to them.
R36Gary
I took it Tuesday, the day before your field trip. The weather was nice, wasn't it?
Chaohwa
I was up there 3-7 at Pelham Pkwy Sta around 1pm. I was with a guy wearing a NYR Jersey. I was wearing a New Jersey Devil Hat and a green jacket.
R36Gary
I got some R142A Shots today and got some driver cockpit shots, will be up by tomorrow night!!!
Trevor
Can't Wait to see them!!!
Nice pictures, you should donate them to the R142 website too.
what's the URL for that site?
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/r142.html
Thanks. I didn't realize you meant the R142 page on THIS site. I thought maybe you were referring to an outside site about the R142's. Would be kinda cool....
At the risque of sounding pompous..
we're losing the redbirds... for those???
RedbirdFANatic
Fan is the key word
I feel the same about the Low V.
"we're losing the redbirds... for those???"
Yeah, ain't it great?
no it is not great we are losing the redbirds !!
I never much cared for the Redbirds. And I absolutely loathe the R-33S running on the 7. If I am to feel any sort of bereavement resulting from their permanent absence, it will only be because of the natural tendency of man to remember fondly that which no longer exists but which is retained in his memory.
Im working on my new URL www.geocities.com & could take about a month to put up. That is why im replace www.angelfire.com to www.geocities.com
Peace Out
David Justiniano
If you're referring to the colored LED signs on the front, they can be green as well.
...the colored LED signs on the front, they can be green as well.
Are you certain? I have never seen or heard of that capability. Have you seen them green? Furthermore, the covering seems to have a red tint to it.
If all they can do is red and green, (and yellow with both,) then waht is the point? It would only serve to confuse passengers to see red for the 1/9, then green for the A/C!!
One-color or full-color is all that makes sense, and I know they didn't opt for full-color...
Green for 4/5/6 would make sense because these are A division cars.
Yellow for 7??? Swap colors with the Broadway lines first...that is...if you want to keep the color coding system in effect since '79. In either case, there will be a lot of confusion.
Since the R142's were meant for the IRT mainlines, then red/green only signs will do. If any are ever assigned to the Flushing line, I'm sure a purple filter can be placed over the bulkhead signs.
Since the R142's were meant for the IRT mainlines, then red/green only signs will do. If any are ever assigned to the Flushing line, I'm sure a purple filter can be placed over the bulkhead signs.
LED's emit monochrome light. Filters filter out all but a certain wavelength. Placing a violet filter in front of a white light will limit what comes through to purple, which is a different wavelength from red. Placing a violet filter in front of a monochrome red or green light will pass nothing. Got any more "bright" ideas? :-)
Yesh, these high-tech numbskulls should have put a REAL roll sign up there. Low-tech? Sure. Reliable? Yes. Visible? Yes. Confusing? No.
Phooey on all-red LEDs for the R142A. No style, no panache, no pizzazz NOTHING. And they are probably be just as tough to read once the glasses get dirty as those on the R32s.
Wayne
If the 7 gets R-142s, I still think they'll be the at the tail end of the order, since the Corona and CI buildings will have to be altered to handing the AC systems.
By then, the effectivness of the LEDs on the first few hundred will be known. If enough people complain about having problems either reading the sign or with the color being wrong, they may make some modification in the last few hundred trains.
The R110A sign were able to change to any colors needed. I was at the trains Musiem when they came in for the big shot of the TA. I was there dring the party that was going on becouse I am a member and happen to be there that day. I got to change to sign to the #7 and it was the right color. So I would say the the R142A could do the same.
[I got to change to sign to the #7 and it was the right color. So I would say the the R142A could do the same.]
Couldn't have. There is no blue in those signs to make purple. Those signs make red, amber and green only. —Just like the new information signs in many stations. (If the red and green can be adjusted, they would be able to make straight yellow and orange as well.)
If the R-142 ever runs on the 7, they would probably just use red. It's not 100% exact, but everyone would get the idea. No lines of any other color share the Flushing tracks. (certainly better than the flipdots, which are green only)
I hope they use the full color for the 143's as there are blue and gray (RGB at hal-power) lines on the B-Div. These do cost more, so I hope they don't decide to be cheap about it.
No mods are neccesary at the CI shop; they already have an overhead crane.
-Hank
Yep. Place a blue filter over a red LED sign. It will then appear purple.
Wrong. Use a true blue filter (dichroic) and you will see nothing. Put a plain peice of blue-tinted plastic in front, and you may see purple, but it will be very, very dim.
You will only see any light at all because the blue plastic is not very efficient at filtering. LEDs, on the other hand, are very efficient at emitting one exact wavelength of light.
That's what I meant, a piece of blue tinted plastic. It would dim the LED display, but not so much as to make it unreadable.
Dim enough. I just tried it with some colored handi-wrap. All you see is a colorless dot, can't even call it 'white'. LEDs aren't available in many colors because they only emit a single color. No prism effect at all. Bipolar LEDs are opaque or clear. The only way to get a different color from an LED is to change the LED.
-Hank
Because full-color can't be done. There are 5 cheaply-available LED types, 1 expensive one, and some still under development.
Red, Green, Amber (Yellow), Bi-Polar (Red if you apply positive volts, green for negative(depending on your hook-up), amber if you alternate the current fast enough) and Infra-Red (most commonly used for TV and stereo remotes).
Blue is available, but it's relatively expensive.
White is stil being developed.
Most likely, the R142 have bi-polar LEDs, so that they can display red or green, but only on the head sign. The side signs look like multi-segment LCD, like the train boards at GCT. The color of the sign when the R142 eventually makes it to the 7 (at least 2 sets of 11 cars were ordered, as were 2 sets of 9 cars) it won't make a difference, since the 7 is one of only 2 lines in the entire city that never share track, so if you see it coming and it stops at your station, it's your train.
-Hank
-Hank
A simple way to display purple 7 signs on the R142's is to place a transparent blue filter over a red LED 7 sign. Red + blue = purple.
Won't work. LEDs are monochromatic, not filtered full spectrum, so the blue filter will simply block the entire emitted spectrum.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
On my VCR, the LED display glows yellow. However, there is a red filter placed in front of it to make the LED display appear orange. Works fine in my VCR, so I'd guess it could work on the bulkhead LED's as well.
Your VCR display is much more likely vacuum-tube flourescent than LED.
If it is LED, then it only works as you describe because yellow and red are much closer in the light spectrum than red and blue, and the filter is not very efficient at filtering exact wavelengths.
VCR displays are gennerally not LED. It's usually a kind of etched piece of silicone, which has another extremely thin layer of silicone over it. The space is filled with a gas, and a charge is applied. (similar to a florescent tube)
-Hank
OK. I assumed that the "LED display" was actually an LED display. Since I'm not technically versed in this area, I'll take your word for it.
Don't you mean SILICON?
(since the 7 is one of only 2 lines in the entire city that never share track)
This might be nitpicking but I could think of 4 lines that never share a track. There might be more but this was off the to of my head at the time. They are:The "7" of courseThe 14St Canarsie LineThe Franklyn Shuttle The 42nd Street Shuttle
You are nitpicking! No, the shuttles never ahre track, but I don't usually not count them as 'lines'
-Hank
You are nitpicking! No, the shuttles never ahre track, but I don't usually count them as 'lines'
-Hank
Both full color and white are out(http://www.ledtronics.com/ds/RGB.htm ; http://www.theledlight.com/keychainlite.html)
but they are expensive (the full color especially so at $10 apiece by one company, and the 8×8 panel on the ledtronics page at about $80).
I hope the prices go down, or perhaps for the 143's they can make a sign that uses separate blues alongside red/green. Signs like this have appeared all over Times Sq., including the huge Nasdaq sign on the CondeNast building (it's a whole section of the corner wall!), the ABC studios sign, the Loews sign outside of the E-walk cafe (notice the brilliant white), and even the skyline over the Delta ad on the PA building
Or they could bolt a painted sheet of metal over the front LED... I understand the I.R.T. has some experience with this method of signage.
Bill :-)
Nice job Chaohwa& David, thanks fir responding to my request! Thanks to Dave P. to for posting them :) -Nick
Nice pics, Chaohwa - and the train isn't as ugly as I had imagined it would be either. I'll be in the City tomorrow afternoon/evening but doubt my daughter will indulge me with enough time to go to Dyre and see for myself.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, I think they are clean and sharp looking. My only reservation--are they painted--I mean what's the point?
The end bonnets are painted; they're fiberglass like everything newer than the R38. The res stripe on the side is a decal, it's been revealed that the stripe indicates the wheelchair location.
-Hank
I think the red patch around the ditchlights and the fancy red stripe around the side of the A car make R142s not as bad as we thought.
Chaohwa
I like the front, but on the sides, the red gradient is just a decal for crying out loud! I think it looks tacky, and will not last long.
I thought the red gradient is to indicate which door to use to reach the wheelchair space.
I thought the red gradient is to indicate which door to use to reach the wheelchair space.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, this is correct. At first we thought it was a way to symbolize the passing of the redbird, but apparently that is not the case. Why they don't just use the blue square with the wheelchair logo is byond me. -Nick
I was only commenting on how it looked. I think Nick is right - a blue wheel chair logo would make more sense, and probably look better.
I like the stripe. Much easier to notice than a 6" blue square (which they will, by law, need to apply anyway).
-Hank
What will happen to the R110s? Will the 110B go to franklin ave? Will the 110A be rebuilt into a 142?
The R110B won't go to the Franklin Avenue shuttle due to platform length limitations. Most likely it will be put on the Rockaway Shuttle. Currently it is on the C Line. I highly doubt neither car will be converted.
I think the 110A's aren't in service anymore anyway (brakes?). Remember the 110's were just an experiment, no need to spend extra bucks to maintain them in service with the new fleet.
WRONG, The R110B can be seen Monday-Friday on the C Line on the 9:56am or 10:06am Trips out of 168th Street! The R-110A I see that train randomly. I've seen her recently at the 239th Street Yard and snaking up White Plains Road (IDK if she was in service or not).
Trevor
To update and retrofit them to match the new mechanical standard should not be a major problem if there is a reason to do so. They were test and research cars but there is no reason not to build them into updated, mechanically compatable cars, if the bodies are in good condition.
I think the R110A cars would be perfect for the 42nd. St. shuttle, if they could be configured into 3 car units (with one left for spare parts). I'd even yank out all the seats.
Great idea. On the train at the Denver Airport, there are no seats and plenty of room. It would ease some of the crowds on the line.
Bad idea. It was tried in the fifties and failed.
On the 42nd. St. shuttle, seats aren't important. Passnager capacity is. If the R110A were to be used on this line, ripping out the seats would increase capacity. If someone can't stand for the 60-90 second ride, then they can take the #7.
On the 42nd. St. shuttle, seats aren't important. Passnager capacity is...
1. What do you think the difference in capacity will be?
2. Where will various mechanical systems now contained under the seats, e.g. heaters, door mechanisms, etc. be relocated?
3. One problem standees is that a grab bar, handle or post must be provided. Where are these facilities for the new standees be located and how will the be attached to the car frame?
4. This was tried in the 1950's and proved to be a failure. Have you analyzed the results of that experiment? What has changed to make you think that it warrants a second chance?
>>>2. Where will various mechanical systems now contained under the seats, e.g. heaters, door mechanisms, etc. be relocated?<<<
R-62a's (and all equipment R-44 and up)currently running on the shuttle have no mechanisms under the seats the seats are cantilevered. Door mechanisms are in the wall.
Peace,
Andee
1. A standing person takes up less space than a sitting person.
2. The R110A has no under-seat mechanisms to worry about.
3. Leaving the current grab bars and posts should be adequate.
4. What cars were modified? Why did it fail? Was that test done on the TS shuttle?
Remember, I'm only advocating doing this to these cars only, for this one line only.
1. A standing person takes up less space than a sitting person.
The scheduled capacity for the current crop of IRT cars is 110, the crush capacity is around 180 - based on 2.5 sf/pax. What NUMBERS do you project?
3. Leaving the current grab bars and posts should be adequate.
The current complement of grab bars and posts is exhausted by the current number of standees. What facilities will the new standees use.? N.B. the new standees cannot occupy the same space as the existing standees. There will have to be a different placement for these new grab bars or posts.
4. What cars were modified? Why did it fail? Was that test done on the TS shuttle?
LV's were modified. They were used on the TS shuttle. Why don't you do a little research. Check the NY Times Index circa 1957. It was quite a fiasco.
I don't project numbers, because I do not proclaim to be an expert. My opinions are simply that, opinions. A standing person has his mass distributed more evenly, maximizing space higher up closer to the roof of the car, whereas a seated person has his weight concentrated at the lower portions of the car, leaving a large amount of space above them totally unused. Add to that the additional space gained by having the seats physically removed, and that's why I say capacity could be increased.
As for grab bars/poles, I'm sire the cars could be modified to provide enough support for everyone. Fully packed cars would'nt even need grab bars for all it's riders, since the people themsleves provide support for others. This is proven every day on the #6 line in upper Manhattan.
I'm not aware of why this 1957 experiment was a fiasco. Was it because people were upset that they couldn't sit at all? Or was it some type of physical problem?
To add:
The Tokyo subway system has flip up seats in its cars which are not used during the rush hours to increase train capacity. I don't reccommend this on any other line except the TS shuttle. NYC subway riders feel they have constitutional rights to seats.
Ii don't understand why since they linked most of the r62's that they don't remove the conductor's cab to increase car capacity
I've thought about this question a couple of times, and I've concluded that the presence of electrical equipment in the "unused" cabs (circuit breakers, etc.) would make it difficult, if not impossible, to remove the cabs.
David
Ever see the interior of an R62 cab? The rear wall has more circuit breakers than there are in my house, and some of them are 600VDC. You'd have to reconfigure the equipment currently in the cab to be either against the outer wall, or under the car, which would be a significant expenditure.
-Hank
Are messages of a certain age deleted?
I retain 5,000 messages in the active board. The rest get archived. I still have them but there's no easy way to present them.
Good lord, you mean my first posts are still archived? I was truly ignorant back then. I believe my first post was "The Manhattan Bridge: Whats up with that?"...
And I'll bet you still haven't gotten a straight answer :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How would one go about seeing this archive?
Like I said, I don't have an easy way to present the archives. 100,000 messages is a lot. The archives are not currently on-line for viewing.
What about picking a random sampling of message (or not random, just the milestones of 1, 10, 100 etc.) online permanently in a folder.
How many days or weeks worth of postings? I.e., how many days old is the posting 5000 numbers before this one? I take it that if someone tries to do a search for postings older than that, he will get a "0 messages" response?
There was a subway crash in Tokyo yesterday that caused injuries as well as ftalities; go to http://cnn.com/2000/ASIANOW/east/03/07/tokyo.train.05/index.html to read the article. -Nick
OUCH! That'll give them nice repair job to do. Sorry to hear about the fatalities and injuries. Side impact is always the worst. However, it looks like only the sheet metal got damaged. Hard to tell what's underneath. I wonder if those are Kawasaki cars.
First time I used the RealPlayer "play video" feature.
Wayne
Ok, at the risk sounding stupid, what exactly is a truck? Is it what the body rests on? Would a truck on a train be comparable to a chassis on a car? What parts make up the truck?
A truck is the set of wheels under the train. That's all I can tell you. That's all I know.
I always thought that the wheels were not considered part of the trucks; the trucks attached the car body to the wheels.
Nope. The whole assembly is the truck. The frame holds the wheels, axles, motors (if the truck is motorized), brake equipment, third rail beams (if necessary) and any other equipment.
The truck is the wheel assembly under the train, including the framework that holds the axles and any necessary attachments, such as third rail shoes.
The truck is independent of the car body and swivels to follow the rails.
On single truck cars (such as some foreign cars, especially freight wagons, and some streetcars) the truck assembly is fixed to the car body.
Yes you are right
The truck consists of the wheels and axles, the frame that holds them, the traction electric motors, the brakes and the bolster that the body is pinned into.
The body also has a bolster with a king pin that plugs into the boslter on the truck
A subway car basically is a unit that rests on two trucks. If the bodies are articulated the front of the unit rests on a truck, there is a truck between the two connecting bodies and at the end of the unit is another truck.
The bolster is a crossmember on the body on the truck or the body that supports the weight of the car body
On the car, the bolster with the king pin runs from side to side of the car and supports the weight of the body.
____________
[__|______|__] ^ ^
Bolsters
| | | |
^ ^
Trucks
On the truck the bolster recieves the king pin and transfers the weight and ballance of the car to the suspension and the frame of the truck. The wheels and axles are connected to the frame.
It is easier to think of how it works if you think of a box car
The car body is a unit and sits on two trucks that have a frame Brakes and four wheels per truck.
That makes sense. I suspected that was what the truck was. What I now know is the truck I thought was just the wheel assembly. Thanks.
Anyone comming to the old LIRR Rockaway ROW walk this Sunday?
This seems to be a forgotten trip. Not much talk about it except
for the listing in the "Upcomming Events" section.
I'll do my best, 10:00 at 63rd Drive , I'll be wearing palmcorders,
dumb look , and walking slow {bum knees} .
I'll be there, weather permitting, camera in hand.
The time has been changed to 10:30 at the token booth. Wear gloves to help push through the trees, and be prepared to go down another hill.
TNX 4 TIME CHG
03/09/2000
Scaling another hill?
Shades of the Polo Grounds shuttle tour?
Bill Newkirk
I believe this one is down only.
It's likely to be muddy - they're talking rain on Saturday.
I'm going to pass - may try it on my own in late April/early May (before the trees come out) or if there's a replay. I am nursing a pulled ribcage muscle I got while coughing - (no smokes in 6 days now)
last Saturday. It hurts like hell except when I lie down. Have to save my energy for Monday's road trip with Simon Billis and subway-buff.
Wayne
Suggestion: When Doug & I did the Bay Ridge walk we both had hard hats on & weren't bothered by anyone, as you'll look like you're there on purpose for some reason.
Mr t__:^)
Mark W. will probably have his hard hat and MTA vest. That makes it look like an official tour.
03/09/2000
I toured this ROW about 10 years ago with a friend,we wore streets clothes yet we didn't look "official".
I guess because the ROW is indeed a part of "Forgotten New York". I can't make this trip because of a recent shoulder injury this past January. I don't want to risk an re-injury scaling down that embankment near the LIRR Mountauk division.
Check out the very long abandoned electrified freight siding and removed switch (hard railed) at Park Lane. Also check for a "Y" with trestle near the encrouched parking lot on ROW (apartment building). I was told the residents in that building have political connections and are against reactivation of the ex-Rockaway branch. Also check on the Jackie Robinson (ex-Interboro)Parkway overpass, NICE !
Bill Newkirk
It's been almost 10 years since I've been on this ROW, and I've never been above the crossover with the active Montaulk branch. Will this tour include the whole thing, all the way to the junction with the A train at Liberty Ave.?
03/10/2000
Sorry I can't answer that because I won't make the trip. I assume that weather permitting, they'll walk as much as this ROW as possible. Barring any fences or any other obstructions that will deter the hardiest of railfans.
WEAR GOOD SHOES!
Bill Newkirk
Here's a question.
Earlier today or yesterday someone (I think Kevin Walsh) said to make sure you check out the overpass to the Jackie Robinson (Interborough) Pkway on the R.O.W. I have been taking the Interborough to and from work for many years now and have never seen the Rockaway Line ROW from it. I've seen the ROW many times from the LIRR Main Line, Jamaica Av, Liberty Av, the "A" Train, etc, but never from the Interborough. (I see the Montauk Line from the Pkway) I assume its W/O Woodhaven and E/O the cemetaries. But where exactly? Anyone know? Kevin??
03/11/2000
Jeff,
That was me who said to check out the Jackie Robinson (ex-Interboro Parkway) overpass. After driving over it a few thousand times, it does look impressive. However, I can't pin point exactly where it is on the JR Pkwy. I'll check out my road map that includes NYC streets.
Bill Newkirk
It would be about 300 yards (give or take a few rods) EAST of Woodhaven Boulevard, a short par 4. I believe the Rockaway ROW goes under the Jackie Robinson Parkway, but don't quote me on this. It should be clearly marked by a metal electrical transmission post, minus the wires.
My Great-Uncle Cecil used to live on Park Lane South. I mentioned the Rockaway ROW to my Dad and he remembers seeing trains crossing over Park Lane South on occasion when he went to Cecil's house.
Wayne
Thanks Bill and Wayne. For some reason I was looking W/O Woodhaven when it is E/O Woodhaven. I'll try to look for it now. It used to bother me that I couldn't find the Main Line on the Robinson Pkway untill I realized it was over that long overpass by Queens Blvd. At least I do know where the Montauk Branch crosses the Pkway, I've even seen a tri-level go by on that overpass. By the way Bill, sorry for getting you confused with Kevin Walsh!!!
Hello All,
As of now, The tour is on. I plan on having it rain or shine. If the turõut is less than expected, I will have a "Shortened" version covering White pot jct. to the Glendale cutoff with a full tour next week. I hope to see you all there.
10:30 63rd Drive by the booth.
-Mark
P.S.
If there is a change, It will be posted around 8:15
Is it only the 75' cars that use 8 side doors per car, or do the 60' B division cars use 8 doors. If so, why do IRT cars of the same legnth only use 6?
The IRT cars are about 51 feet long, not 60 feet. Four doors per side would eat up way too many seats.
BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
There are no IRT cars of the same length (60 feet). All IRT cars are 50' 1" long and have 6 door panels per side. All BMT cars of either 60 or 75 feet have 8 door panels per side.
Don't you mean 51' 4"? That's what my sources say.
Actually, it depends on where you measure. Over the anticlimbers it's nominally 51 feet 1/2". If you measure the car body alone, it's the dimension that I gave - give or take a fraction for individual contracts of cars.
There's no real industry standard, but generally the heavier the loading you expect, the more doors you want (to cut dwell time). The longer the ride, the fewer doors (to maximize comfort and seating capacity).
I.E., Boston's existing 48' Blue Line cars have 2 door leaves, the older cars had 3 (the ride was much shorter before the line was extended from Maverick so comfort wasn't an issue).
The 65' Orange line cars have 3, the new #3 Red Line cars (69') have 4. The CTA cars (about 48') have 2, PATH cars (about 50') have 2 or 3. I believe the Tokyo subway uses 5, but I don't know how long the cars are.
The old BMT standards were 67' long but had only 3 door leaves, as did the B-I thru B-III cars in Phila. The LIRR M-1s have only 2 for an 85' car.
Neoplan makes some special-application buses that have 3 or 4 doors (airport shuttles, artics, etc.)
There's no real industry standard, but generally the heavier the loading you expect, the more doors you want (to cut dwell time). The longer the ride, the fewer doors (to maximize comfort and seating capacity).
There are many factors that influence dwell time. The width of open door space is often more important than the number of doors. One anomoly is that the BMT standards had only 3 doors but had more open door width than the IND design which has 4 doors.
The BMT standards represented an initial attempt to design a rapid transit car which could facilitate passenger loading and unloading while at the same time moving a high volume of passengers. They dispensed with end vestibules which were commonplace on the Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs (except for the World's Fair cars). When the original IRT line was built, there was nothing to fall back on in terms of car design for high passenger volume in a subway-type setting. Standard railroad coaches of the time had end vestibules, and the IRT simply followed this practice. Then when the original line opened, the shortcomings of such a design quickly became apparent - loading and unloading took entirely too long, and manual doors didn't help much. That's when center doors were added.
From the original Gibbs cars, the next advance was the BMT standard, which was a blend of subway car and interurban coach. The R-1 was designed as a people mover; it was the first true subway car.
Don't forget the idea behind the center door was that passengers would board only at the ends, and they would disembark from the center.
-Hank
From the original Gibbs cars, the next advance was the BMT standard, which was a blend of subway car and interurban coach. The R-1 was designed as a people mover; it was the first true subway car.
That doesn't mean that they designed it correctly. They had to add 120' to the train length to equal the BMT's type A/B and D people moving capacity.
At the George Washington Carver Science fair, at Temple University, I noticed 2 transportation related projects, and heard of a third from someone else. The fair is at Temple University, and public display was Wednesday 3/8, but they may let you in tommorow.
The projects were
372- Pearson Hall: Noise levels in Broad Street Subway stations
420- Pearson Hall: Magnets used for maglev.
I hear of another maglev project at McGonagle Hall, but I don't know its number.
I think that numbers 372 and 420 will be moving on to the Delaware Valley science fair to be held in Fort Washington Expo Center in the beginning of April, but I can't be sure till tommorow.
I deny having done either project. My project is number 297 in Pearson, and has nothing to do with transportation (The influnce of UV radiation on copepods and how sunscreens can minimize such effects)
Actually, your topic could be related to transportation, if you want to cite "passenger exposure to UV radiation" as a reason to replace elevated lines with subways.
Do you have any further info on the Broad Street and Maglev projects (or is there a website that SubTakers can visit)?
I have no further information on the projects because the project numbers or titles were not announced at the award ceremony. However, I did make the Delaware Valley fair, and I think at least 2 of those projects did. And it is my understanding that Delaware Valley comes out with a program book, so I can have such useful information. I don't think I can find a website now, but I can always check.
Today I decided to try something different in my performance, Instead of doing it on the IRT 1,2,3,9 , I did it on the IND C, from 42nd to 96th St. When I got to the part of New York having the best Subway in The World I realized @ 50th St. door number 11 and 10 in car #4104 didn't open. This being the lead car and all, I would think that they would have it fixed before it left the yard. And if it happened after than wouldn't the conductor or T/O take the train OOS?
(I did incorporate this into my act and it got a lot of laughs.)
Sometimes you'll get a door or doors that only half-opens. Panel #10 would be part of the #5 door and #11 would be part of the #6 door.
I used to see half-opening doors ALL THE TIME on R-6s, R-7s and R-9s when they were in service. Occasionally you see this still. It seems to be more of a problem with Redbirds and 60-foot B Division cars. In fact, I can't ever remember seeing it happen on a 75-foot car or any of the R62/62A class.
Wayne
I see half open doors all the time on MARTA. And not just in the winter time when they freeze shut.
Sure, because all of those cars have a motor for each door panel, where the Redbirds and Brightliners have 1 motor for panels 2 & 3, 4 & 5 (6 & 7 on BMT/IND cars) and their opposites. The only single-panel motors are for the end doors.
-Hank
Thats great! Now lets get a cutout switch so during the rotten weather
the conductor can limit the door openings in the Am rush on open air stations for riders pleasure and comfort. All this depending on passenger volume , of course.
If I am correct, R-62 and up have cutout switches they just don't use them. Correct me if I am wrong
Peace,
Andee
The first time I've ever seen this phenomenon was on an R-46 on the F many years ago.
By half-opening doors, I presume you're referring to one leaf which wouldn't open in a set. Toward the end of their careers, the R-1/9s suffered from this malady quite a bit simply because nobody cared about them anymore. Even 1689 had a sticking door at Shoreline back in 1980. (Has it been fixed?)
I remember riding on an IRT train once (it may have been the very first one I ever rode on back on 8/9/67) in which the car I was in, possibly an R-17, had three door leaves which wouldn't open ON ONE SIDE, including one whole set of end doors.
If a Door is not working you just cut it out. You don't have to take the Train Out Of Service because of a door unless its a real safety.
Anyone know if the R68As now assigned to the (B) are partly shopped at Concourse Yard?
Thanks-Al
Not that I know of. Some of them do sleep on the layup tracks along the Concourse, but AFAIK they are shopped out of Coney Island.
Wayne
Most of the R40M slants what's left of them are used and pretty much mainstay of the B line do orginiate out of coney Island yard.
The B train Runs mostly B68 & R68A but do run some slants R40 if needed. At night the B keep three B68 train at the 36th Street yard. There go in to serives at 36th Street station when they come out in the moring. I know this becouse I work in Jackie Gleason Depot and for last pick I had to be at work by 4:00am and I used to wark thurgh the yard every day.
I was just implying that R40M slants are mostly in service on the B line I do every once in a while see them in service other then rushour.
The R40M's are the ones with straight ends, and run only on the J/M/Z and L lines. Most R40 slants run on the N, Q and L lines. Only on weekends do you see them running on the B.
Right, weekends give Coney Island Shops a chance to work on the R68 R68As, so if need be, they take a unused Q R40 slant (since the Q doesnt run weekends) and puts it into service on the (B)
On the weekends, there is at least one, sometimes two, Slant R40s in service on the "B" line.
Wayne
The real trick is to get one of those trains when the B is running nonstop on the Sea Beach. We already know what the slants can do between 36th and Pacific Sts.
Don't waste your time. With the new signal system, complete with grade timers and wheel detectors, the fun in that express run has been neutered.
Last time I was through that way (4th Avenue Express) was on December 11, 1999, northbound on an R68A "B" train (our Slant became hobbled in Stillwell due to a brake line failure and was sent off to the Shop for repairs). I was able to see to a limited extent through the front window (it had the glass which distorts the view causing rainbows around the tunnel lights). We operated under full green, didn't see any GT's until close to Pacific. Maximum speed? 35MPH. Have WD's been installed since December 11th? I will try and get another look Monday; hopefully we'll get something with a view (a slant "N"?)
Wayne
I think hes talking aboutthe Sea Beach express tracks.....
3TM
Manhattan bound, it's a better run, not needing to slow down at Kings Highway to switch from one track to the other. I assumed a wheel detector was placed at this location. Anyway, the new signals have GT's that check the speed of any Sea Beach Express. Only short bursts of speed can be attained.
Most times I see slants they run B service this is during a weekday I have never seen a slant running on the N line only the R68s but I have not been in that area lately I live upstate and work in Bx division garage KB in upper menhatten next to 207th ST yard
only 30 slant R40s are assigned to the N. i do remember once when the M was out of service for some reason, and I saw 10 car R-42s shopped out of ENY on the N!!!!
TA must be changing car assignments again they do this with the buses too. Heard roumers they want to turn the KB depot into all articulated garage
During that period they ran on the Q as well. I finally discovered that thr R42 is as fast as the R40 on those express runs.
Did you see the R40/R32 mutant that ran on the N as well?
I rode on a few N trains of R-42s in 1971 and man, did they move. They rocketed along 4th Ave. and Broadway.
I feel the same way when I ride R32 or R40 N trains along 4th Avenue express tracks now.
Chaohwa
The best place to see the R40 do it's speed thing is on a southbound Q from Prospect Park to Sheepshead Bay. The 34st to W4st express run was also good, until that new @#$!%& wheel detector castrated it.
That detector is rarely on. Actually, it's never on. It's only activated when the switch to the SB local track is selected. That's are rare move.
I meant to say "That's a rare move"
Northbound from Sheepshead is as good or better. Last March I was on one fired-up shovelnose (#4314) that left THREE Slowbirds in its wake between B.B. and P.P. We topped out at 48MPH.
Wayne
Are they faster on weled track, if so, what about the run from Hoawrd Beach to Broad Channel?
You know, that's a good question. When the Slants were on the "A", I wasn't doing all that much riding, especially not out in that direction (I only get out to Rockaway on rare occasions). I would guess they did 45-50MPH over the trestle, as Slants are wont to do.
Anyway - MORE Slantology to-day: two of my favorite (and most often-travelled-on) R40s were out on the "Q" train this afternoon - #4246-4247. We passed a "D" of R68s led by #2500 at Cortelyou and then let it catch up with us at Newkirk. #4247 was the lead (normally #4246 is the lead when that pair's up front). She toyed with the "D", letting it get the lead by a door, then she shut 'em down. I'd have taken pictures out the front except that the glass was not only scratched to smithereens but unexplicably filthy as well.
Wayne
Remember those R68's that got brand new windows for the Franklin Ave shuttle reopening? 5 months later, you can't even tell them apart from the other R68's.
Ugh.
>>>>Remember those R68's that got brand new windows for the Franklin Ave shuttle reopening? 5 months later,
you can't even tell them apart from the other R68's.
Ugh. <<<
You know, 'ugh' is a perfect reaction to the sight of scratchiti on subway windows. But this reminds me of the guy who wrote the railfans article in Saturday's paper.
Our stellar young people who actually do the scratching and the author of the story would probably concur that we, as railfans, make too big a deal about sctachiti. Just a bunch of weirdos...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Ah, the Howard Beach-Broad Channel jaunt. That's where I experienced my fastest ride ever on a train of R-10s in July of 1969. You'd have thought that A train was turbocharged, or juiced, or quadruple-field shunted the way it positively rocketed down the track. If that had been a train of oldtimers, we would be talking A or even B flat above middle C for bull and pinion gear pitch.
Nobody ever answered my question on how field shunting works.
Ill try to explain it and KISS (keep it simple, silly).
All our (EX R-110 & R-142) motors are called DC Series-wound. This means that the armature is in series with the field coil. Also, a little kown fact-they're all 300V, wired permantely in pairs on each truck.
I can't draw on this reply, so bear with me.
The power has to run through the field, which builds up a huge magnetic field, helping the armature to overcome gravity and start rotating. Now, there are large permanent magnets in the case, but not large enough to create the magnetic repulsion needed to start the armature. Also, the voltage in a just-starting armature must not be high enough to "fry" the windings on the armature.
They would cook because of the counter EMF (electro-motive force) developed in the just-starting armature and all this energy is turned into heat (a-la a toaster's coils).
So, when the master controller is "wrapped around", the groupswitches (SCM-selector cam mechanism) routes the juice through the acceleration resistors, Field #1, Armature #1, F#2, A#2, more resistance, F#3, A#3, F#4, A#4, through various fuses and solid state current regulators, and back to ground.
As the train's speed increases, the SCM, through current sensing, eventually steps the cam fingers to the following circuit: A#1, A#2, solid state equipment and fuses.
Also parallel circuit with A#3 & A#4.
Full current is now flowing through the fastly rotating
armatures. This is the state of FIELD SHUNTING, as they're switched out of the circuit.
But!-wait a minute. As of 1995-6, the motors can't climb up to FS, as the SCM's have been short-circuited in the un-shunted notch.
This cuts the current in the armatures 50%, and the other 50% is wasted as magnetism and a little heat, as the fields wre never designed to stay un-shunted 100% of the time.
This has the effect of lowering the top speed 25%.
(There was a plan to go to only 50% FS, but that wouldn't slow the trains down enough! The W'burg collision happened because the signals on the bridges were only 75ft apart, not enough stopping distance for a train that never got tripped because the 115lb rail was too tall in profile.
All they had to do is replace the signals on the bridges, which eventually happened.)
The "un-shunting" costs $2 million!)
I hope my description is understandable.
Uhhhh....there are no permanent magnets in the traction motors
and your description of counter-EMF is a bit off. I like the
SCM description, but please don't discriminate against the Westy
cars!
I've also never heard that the train in the 1995 WB accident failed
to trip, although installation of 115 lb rail without adjusting the
trip arms might cause that (ah, but is there 115 on the WB?
Perhaps if I am stuck in traffic tomorrow long enough I'll try to
look at the foundry marks).
I'm not sure I can answer RoyalPigs' question without using
the word magnetomotive-force and facing the ridicule of heypaul,
to which I retort in advance: those who live in glass R-9 cabs
should not throw electric brake plugs.
I will therefore use a simplistic analogy. If you are riding
a bicyle and you are in first gear, you are getting pretty good
performance at low speeds. As speed increases you have trouble
getting as much acceleration, until there is a certain speed at
which you simply can't pedal any faster. By analogy, a DC motor
is designed to operate under a certain load, size, voltage
and current. This sets the limit beyond which it can't go faster.
Field shunting is like shifting to second gear (although there
is absolutely no real gear shifting going on...this is just an
analogy). In second gear, you can't exert as much torque as in
first, but it does allow you to reach a higher speed plateau.
The TA disabled the field shunting in motoring, thus preventing
the motors from being able to reach their higher speed range.
If you (Royal) would like a more technical explanation
it can be arranged.
Yeah, the solid magnet reference got me kind of confused.
I thought that the resistance would be gradually dropped, while all motors were in series (150 volts), then they would go to parallel between axles (300 volts). I never understood the way the resistance was added removed, were there switches controlled by the controller?
So field shunting is just removing all resistance? Where do they stop now? How did they disconnect it (removed a wire?)?
While we're on the topic, I have some questions about an AC motor:
Are there any permanent magnets inside, or are they all windings?
If windings, is it shunt wound, or series wound?
How is the speed controlled, by frequency?
How is DC "de-rectified" to AC?
And a question concerning rectifiers:
In a solid state rectifier, using diodes, how do they manage do get rid of the "waves?"
OK, you asked for it.
First, your other questions:
While we're on the topic, I have some questions about an AC motor:
Are there any permanent magnets inside, or are they all windings?
If windings, is it shunt wound, or series wound?
How is the speed controlled, by frequency?
How is DC "de-rectified" to AC?
And a question concerning rectifiers:
In a solid state rectifier, using diodes, how do they manage do get rid of the "wave
AC motors are much more difficult to explain than DC, because you
have to picture changing magnetic fields that are effectively
rotating. Quick answer for 3-phase induction motors, which is what
I think you are driving at. No permanent magnets....they'd be
too puny for anything other than a sub-fractional horsepower
hobby motor. The windings are neither series nor shunt. Those
terms apply to DC motors. All of the windings that you have
access to are stationary, on the inside of the motor shell.
There are 3 phases which means there are 6 wires, one pair for
each phase winding. The phases are driven in sequence, each being
120 electrical degrees behind the adjacent phase. The rotating
part of the motor, which is called the rotor on AC motors, is
effectively an armature that is short-circuited. The changing
magnetic field of the 3-phase stator windings induces, by transformer
action, a changing current that flows within the armature thanks
to the short-circuit. This current reacts with the magnetic field
to produce torque. In order for this to happen, the rotor must
always be turning slightly slower than the stator field is
"rotating".
With older technology, speed is controlled by playing with the
winding configurations and only very coarse adjustments can be
made. Think of a dishwasher, washing machine or air conditioner
with slow, medium and fast speeds.
The R-142s use solid-state switches to energize each phase.
I would conjecture (I haven't seen a drawing of this particular
drive unit) that an H-bridge configuration is used. Each of the
two leads of a phase coil is connected to a pair of switches.
One applies ground and the other applies 600. This allows current
to be driven in one direction or the other through the coil.
The excitation frequency is kept just a little ahead of the mechanical
speed of the rotor. It is possible that a chopper front-end is
being used to supply variable voltage as well. I'm not sure.
I believe that addresses the induction motor questions. As for
rectification, eliminating of the ripple can be achieved either
with a series inductor (choke) or a parallel capacitor. Both
tend to store energy and later in the cycle release it to smooth
out the ripple.
Now, on to DC motor theory. In a series wound DC motor, both the
field winding (which is stationary) and the armature winding (which
rotates and is accessed via carbon brushes and a commutator) are
designed for heavy currents (as opposed to a shunt DC motor
where the field winding has many turns of fine wire).
The current through the field windings establishes a magnetic field
in the iron structure of the motor. We can oversimnplify and
say that the field strength is proportional to the current in the
field windings, although that turns out to be inaccurate because
of magnetic saturation (but forget about that).
The current through the armature reacts with the field to produce
torque. Torque is proportional to the product of field strength
times armature current. The rotating armature also generates a
back-EMF which tends to oppose the applied voltage. Counter-EMF
is proportional to field strength times speed.
At 0 speed, there is no counter-EMF. Were the full line voltage
to be applied to the motor, it would react poorly because I=V/R,
and R is very small....just the resistance of the armature and
field windings. Therefore, at starting, resistance is in series
with the motor. The resistance, the so-called "grid resistance",
is a resistor with several fixed taps. The control group under
the car sequentially closes contacts that short out the taps and
decrease the effective resistance. This is done because as the
car accelerates, counter-EMF increases, and the V in V/R drops.
A current sensor controls the advance of the group to maintain
roughly constant current. This translates into constant torque,
and therefore constant acceleration.
I think you already know about series-parallel transition, so we'll
skip that. Once the motors have reached full parallel and all
the external resistance has been eliminated, the current will
fall steadily as the counter-EMF increases. At a certain point,
the torque being produced will be equal to the torque needed
just to maintain the current speed. Even on level track there
is wind resistance, bearing friction and track resistance.
This is called the "balancing" speed.
Now, here comes field shunting. After the control group has
removed all of the resistance, it places a shunt resistor around
the field windings of each motor. Now the field current is less
than the armature current. This reduces the counter-EMF and now
more current can flow again. The torque per armature amp also
decreases because the field is weaker, but that isn't as important.
The effective balancing speed is raised and the motor can accelerate
until it reaches the shunted-field balancing speed.
The TA mods simply prevent the control groups from applying the
field shunts during motoring. They are still used when starting
(to reduce initial torque and jerk) and in coasting (to allow
the dynamic brake loop current to flow but not cause undue
braking torque).
"Ill try to explain it and KISS (keep it simple, silly)."
The last time I posted this question I explicitly requested that such a method be avoided. I don't want to read an explanation about how a motor works before getting to what I really don't know.
I didn't read your message before posting that, I guess I've been unnecessarily grizzled by my constant fighting with Salaam Allah and the Redbird Jihad. Don't pay attention to what I said in message #104825 above.
REDBIRD JIHAD ?? what is a REDBIRD JIHAD mr pig ?? and why cnat you just take the excellent
and intellgent answer you got from the motorman instructor etc... several posts back ?
i thought his answer was very interesting and educational and intellgent !!!!
"why cnat you just take the excellent and intellgent answer you got from the motorman instructor etc... several posts back ? i thought his answer was very interesting and educational and intellgent" !!!!
Based on what do you say that the posting by "Motor Instructor" was excellent and intelligent. Is it based on your vast knowledge of DC circuits or the SCM controller theory? You, my friend are not qualified to evaluate the technical information it contained. I'm quite sure it sounded good to you. I'm sure you also believe, based on Gilligan's Island that cars can run on coconuts.
I enjoyed your simple, silly (your word) explanation of field shunting. However, I'd like to know where you came up with the $2 million figure. The Field Shunting modification was done while the cars were on inspection meaning that no additional manpower was required. On the SCM controller it involved removing 2 wires from the energy conservation relay and butt splicing them together. This procedure took under 2 minutes per car. Westinghouse was only slightly more involved. So where did you get the $2 million figure?
I bet I can guess where that train hit 48 mph: on the downhill run from the embankment to the open cut.
The 40slants (Best cars)run on the m line as well.
No, the bulk of the R40 Slant fleet is assigned to the (Q). The Q has 170 R40 Slant, the N has 30 R40 slant and the (L) has around 32 slant R40s...anyway Id rather have a fleet of R10s on the B..lol
Al
The "L" has a TOTAL of 48 Slant R40 - all units from #4398 through #4449 (52 NUMBERS) NOT counting the following withdrawn from service due to collision damage: #4420-4421, #4427, #4428. They do run four consists in regular service (32 units), with two consists as spare (16 units). They're never the same eight cars in the consist either.
Wayne
I'd rather have a fleet of R-10s on the A myself. They were tailor-made for that line. Local trains didn't stand a chance along CPW when those speedsters dominated the A.
Those R-10's were awesome on the A. The Slant-R-40's were fun too, but I think the R-10 were the top dog. They were pretty noisy, but you were guaranteed to have a nice fast ride. Memories, memories.
Wayne
I remember Slants on the "A" very well! The R38s of today are just about as good. In fact, one of them did 53MPH through the tunnel just last December.
Whatever line the Slants run on, they engender good memories and fast express runs.
wayne
I do remember slants running on the D in 1985-86. Covered in urban art, with dark cars everywhere, they certainly zipped along CPW.
I remember clearly #4412-4413 painted from stem to stern in service on the "F" back in 1973. Flint I was the primary painter, although other names were sandwiched in as well. It was quite a sight. Everything was covered, windows, doors, the car numbers, the works. Of course, now you can see this happily married couple, clean as a whistle, out on the Canarsie Line.
Dark/dim slants seemed to be more prevalent among the non-A/C cars. I do recall #4370-4371 (on the "F") as being Dark Cars, July 25 1973.
Wayne
Remember the garbage that the TA stuck on the northern IND portions of the split B/D service in 1986/87? Those R40M/R42 cars were awful. Every train had at least one dark car. Seeing the new R68's show up on the BMT/Brooklyn part of the D line in late '86 must've made Concourse IND riders seethe in anger.
Of course, now those are significantly better, after their GOH's. It doesn't make the R40M's seats any the more comfortable, however.
That's a classic example of the "deferred maintenance".
Wayne
I'd call that "ignored maintenance" ....
If you ever watch reruns of the sitcom "Night Court" slants running on the "A" are featured in the opening credits. Albeit during the dim time.
Peace,
Andee
Slants were widley used on the A-AA line i the early 80s
I remember that in the early 80's, almost all of the A line was slant R40, with the odd R44. Why was this changed?
Slants were widley used on the A-AA line in the early 80s
I happen to know that those scenes were shot in 1982, at the 59th St/Columbus Circle stop.
My most memorable express run with the slants was on an A train up CPW on Easter Sunday, March 26, 1978. That train had the afterburners on, let me tell you. It was just as fast as any train of R-10s I ever rode on that stretch. That marked the first time I had ridden on the slant R-40s since that one-stop hop along 6th Ave. in 1968-69 in order to appease my sister. I can only imagine just how fast they were along the Queens line, especially the express run beyond Continental Ave.
Nothing - but nothing - could top an R-10 in terms of pure excitement. Curiously, no A train I ever took on the CPW express dash happened to race a local between 72nd and 81st Sts., not that it would have mattered. Not the way those cars would still be gathering speed at 72nd St. An AA train of R-32s might have given the R-10s a run for their money, but it would have been a lost cause. I was on an AA train once which attempted to keep up with a D train of R-32s along that stretch. Let's just say the last car of that D train was pulling away from us, and that was before our train even began to slow down for 72nd St.
Even though the R-10s weren't exactly whisper-quiet, I never had to hold my ears on a CPW dash. They weren't that bad 30 years ago.
That leaves many slants unaccounted for. There HAS to be more than 3 sets (30 cars) on the N line.
I think there ARE probably more than three trains of R40 on the "N"; maybe more like six. They share with the "Q" - I've seen the same cars on the "Q" and the "N" within a month of each sighting.
Wayne
They are not!
As I said before R40M are different from the R40SLANT
Right! The put ins of the 3 trains at 38th Street Scrap Yard are R68 or R68As...also there are put ins at Concourse, Coney Island, and 21st Street Queensbridge, and I am GUESSING 2nd Avenue on the IND..leftover from the pervisou nights shuttle
And, if you want to be technical, put-ins from Stillwell Yard
Right..you got it...any idea about 2nd Avenue put ins???
I doubt it. The late night shuttles will be changed to (B) somewhere along the way. They don't store trains at 2nd Avenue. It is too easy for the vandals to get to them. Definately behind 21-Queensbridge. Not at Lexington Avenue (behind the wall.) That space is for N Trains.
One more note, on the weekends the tracks behind are used for B Trains. On weekdays, for Q Trains. Q Trains are stored in there during weeknights. The 2 tracks can hold 2 trains each last I checked. By the way, any infos on the connection? Anybody?
I believe the 2nd Ave. shuttle is a converted B train. I see this sometimes on my way home during my many stints on the nightshift. The shuttle is an 8 car R68A marked as a B train, with a southern terminal marked as Second Ave. I would assume that after 5:30 AM, these shuttles are connverted back to B trains and run to CI.
The Slant R-40s are still shopped out of Coney, but are not assigned to the (B). Some Slant R-40s are shopped out of ENY BMT yard for service on the (L)...I think about 32 Slant R-40s are at ENY making up making 4 8 car trains on the (L).
Al
There are two types of R40 one is the R40slant the other is the R40M
I was corrected on this a while back got R40 and R40M mixed up thanks anyway
All 200 R-68A cars are assigned to Coney Island. None are assigned to Concourse...
What station is the new MetroCard commercial shot in? I saw C and E trains signs......
3TM
What station is the new MetroCard commercial shot in? I saw C and E trains signs......
3TM
BTW, there are MVM at Nostrand and Kingston on the 3 line....
The station is 50th Street.
Speaking of that commercial, it sure makes you think that those machines are easy to use, doesn't it? Little old lady, slow walk, uses the machine instead of standing in line for a day. Good concept.
'So simple, a little old lady can use it!'
-Hank
They should have used the footage of me using it. Although that didn't end well. Animal Control tried to remove me from the machine as I screamed and squealed and flailed my hoofs about. Then I bit the leg of one of them and shot up the stairs on all fours, where nearby a Boarshevik National Committee car was ready to take me to safety at Pigty Headquarters.
Pigty Headquarters? Something about that name sounds familiar.
Interesting, if I were to add an additional T to that, I would get an anagram to your name. This is mere coincidence! From now one, the pigty shall be reffered to as the Boarganization.
On a serious note, there was an article in House and Home in the New York Times about the MVM today.
This evening at around 10:25 I was waiting for an uptown A at penn station. Up came a work train with a crane at the front and the engine a few cars back. What was cool was there was a guy standing at the leading edge of the train with a headset (obviously) telling the motorman how to drive.
How many of us would love to be standing out in the open at the edge of a flat car like that on the front of a subway train?
Not me. Try standing out in the open in all the different whather condion. Snow, Rain, Ice, Extrem Cold and Extrem Heat. Not to metion all the dirt that in the system. This is one of the jobs I would not like to pick if I was a Train Opt.. Yes the work train have two Train Opt. working on it not one Train Opt. and one Condtor.
Not me. Dirt, grunge, steel dust, noise. Yuck. I prefer to do my railfanning inside comfortable, quiet climate controlled cars.
I've been through tunnels on my motorcycles.
Its fun, yes - once in a while.
I rode the IRT flatcar trip in 1979 so I did it (pushed by Low-Vs).
I wouldn't want to do it for a living though!
That would be cool if it was outside, like on the Brighton Line or at the structure at Broadway Junction on the Canarsie Line.
Doug aka BMTman
Being a T/O for over twelve years, I have had the experience which was fun for me in the engine only. That was my decision in changing my handle to Engine Brake. Flagging is no fun. The sound powered phones frequently fail and the tunnel noise is great enough so that you can not hear your partner's commands. Back when we were not issued safety glasses, the steel dust was tremendous. The only fun I had as a flagman was in the summer on the Brighton line sniffing in Barbeques and gyros. The river tubes are highly uncomfortable, the engines are too cold in the winter and the overtime affiliated with the diesel jobs is almost all gone, due to a tri-fold increase in supervision. It is a hazardous job, one that I would not work unless hazardous duty pay is included in a future contract. Breathing in the toxic diesel smoke is not worth it. I even feel small in the engine looking at myself compared to those working a GP38 . These coal mining engines are so underpowered and really should not be run in a subway tunnel without working scrubbers.
This afternoon my daughter and I headed into the City for a reception at a major law firm on Eighth Avenue (Georgetown University Law Center is having receptions in various places for admitted students that they want to especially encourage to attend - Margaret will probably go there but is waiting on the financial aid decision to make it official) so we headed to Little Silver to catch the 1:54 train to NYP. Wouldn't you know it, for once in its miserable existence NJT was EARLY - we arrived at 1:45 only to have the gates come down in front of us and keep us from getting to the parking lot. The train was gone by 1:49, five minutes ahead of schedule. So we went back to the house for a little while and then headed back, catching the 2:54 (that didn't arrive until 3:02). That train was delayed in Middletown for about 15 minutes by a door that wouldn't close; finally they simply decided to proceed with the door open and a conductor guarding it. At Hazlet they grabbed a crow bar, unstuck it, and simply didn't open it for the remainder of the trip. Don't know if they took the train out of service at NYP rather than reversing it for the next run; I doubt it, since we ran in on track 3 rather than on a through track. The new station south of Newark seems to be coming along nicely, and we rode over the new track just outside Bergen Hill Tunnel for the first time (my last trip into the City was in December for the Polo Grounds tour).
Margaret didn't want to walk in heels up Eighth Avenue so we purchased two $3.00 MetroCards from the MVMs in NYP - no fancy cards but we did get a 1999 SBA dollar and a 2000 Sacagawea in change (along with two other SBA dollars). Rode a jam-packed E to 50th Street and read restaurant menus within a couple of blocks of the station until time for the reception. The return trip, also on an E at about 8:30 PM, was still SRO.
Headed back to Little Silver on the 9:04 we had to wait for the swing bridge on the Raritan River, just south of Perth Amboy. That train had several problems getting doors open but otherwise was an uneventful trip.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[we headed to Little Silver to catch the 1:54 train to NYP. Wouldn't you know it, for once in its miserable existence NJT was EARLY - we arrived at 1:45 only to have the gates come down in front of us and keep us from getting to the parking lot. The train was gone by 1:49,
five minutes ahead of schedule.]
Interesting ... in contrast to NJT, the LIRR has a policy of not allowing trains to leave stations ahead of schedule (except for some rush-hour trains that are so marked in the timetables). It's not too uncommon at line-station stops to hear the conductor announce that the train is being held until the schedule time.
I've never had it happen before - I'm guessing it was a novice crew. (Of course, they're usually late anyway.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am fairly sure that it is an FRA regulation that you can't leave before the posted time unless that possibility is marked in the public timetable.
I've been told by bus drivers in NY that the TA has the same policy for buses. Very frustrating when the schedule allowes for more traffic congestion than exists on a given run.
SBK Engine N2 visited the IRT tonight as a solo unit to pick up a work train on the 2/5 consisting of flats, a demotored R-14, and another diesel. I am presuming that the train was heading to Westchester Yard. Diesels were at each end of the train. This was the first time I had spotted N2 since the R-142s were delivered from Linden Yard some 2 months ago.
I do have a question regarding the SBK. Is it an independent entity from the TA or is it pretty much integrated into the system? I can't recall if this question was asked, but I wondered about it. If the SBK isn't a separate entity, is the TA subject to FRA regulations? N1 and N2 freely run in the system, but can the TA yellow jackets run with out being subject to any kind of regulations?
Lastly, I wanted to know if regular TA personnel are qualified to operate to the piers....
-Stef
FYI, Wilbur Smith Associates about 1978 did a really neat study of the SBK. Then it still went all the way to Coney Island and had some real customers (Roberts Food, which had its own tank cars that were small enough to fit through the West End Line tunnel) and Davidson Pipe, I think maybe a few more (lumberyard or two). Parkville Jct was still in use then too....
Neat reading if you can find a copy. It's a terrible shame (IMHO) how that unique piece of infrastructure was allowed to wither....
SBK is/was a separate company of the BMT and was absorbed into the NYCTA (as with everything else).
N1 and N2 are required to meet FRA standards since they are used to interchange -- deliver and make freight pick-ups -- with common carrier railroads. This means that they have the standard railroad "air-horns" and the necessary marker lights as required by FRA. Of course they have dual coupler systems to haul NYCT cars or regular railroad equipment. They may also be equipped with better braking systems (?) or other extra features that differeniate them from the regular NYCT diesel locomotives.
As I recall, only in rare exception (if N1 or N2 is disabled) does the NYCT enlist their MOW yellow locos to do interchange work. However, I followed the SBK back in the 70's, so this aspect of their operations may have changed over the years. (Perhaps things have laxed to the point that FRA doesn't make a big stink about whether NYCT uses their SBK equipment for interchanging or not?)
The old SBK interchange yard (across from COSTCO warehouse on 2nd Ave.) is sparse of rail equipment. Its being used primarily to store RTS buses. On the far side of the yard are the 3 rotting Q-cars that the tour group spied on Saturday afternoon.
Stef, I hope that helps in your quest for knowledge.
Doug aka BMTman
Where does the SBK interchange with the NYRR. Is that SBK track that goes across second ave and through the fence with the gate?
You are a winner! Yes, that's there interchange yard. Although I bet there hasn't been much interchanging going on there in quite awhile!
Doug aka BMTman
Don't forget FRA mandated Grab Irons at the steps as well. SBK is still listed as it's own railroad and own radio frequency though it is absorbed by the MTA, NYC Transit.
SBK still maintain a presence at bush terminal?
I don't know, what about Gore Terminal?
No, their main "home base" is the BMT 36th Street Yard.
In the 70's and early 80's the SBK diesels used to be layed-up over at the Davidson Pipe Co.'s main facility which is now the COSTCO warehouse and parking lot (39th St. between 2nd and 3rd Aves.). Back in the BMT operation days the main SBK yard was the COSTCO site.
Today, a single track runs beside the Gowanus Expressway's 39th Street offramp leading to the interchange yard at 2nd Ave.
The 4th Ave. tunnel portal area that belongs to the SBK is filled with construction debris. There is also a set of TA-type flat cars there that are in horrendous condition.(The tour group of last Saturday found this facility's gate wide unlocked and wide open).
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks, Dougie. I knew I could count on you. I needed some clarification on the SBK and you've cleared things up.
Take Care!
Stef
When did they stop running on MacDonald Av? I remember when I was visiting my grandmother one day in the late 60's/early 70's I took a walk down MacDonald Av and a diesel engine pulling 2 freight cars went by right on the street in traffic. Up till then I had thought the tracks on MacDonald Av were old trolley tracks!!!
One of the ERA slide shows had several great shots of a fan trip of D-types being pulled by a SBK engine there. Glenn said those taking photos outside the cars were able to walk faster then the train was being pulled ... must have been a very enjoyable trip.
Mr t__:^)
Glenn said those taking photos outside the cars were able to walk faster then the train was being pulled ... must have been a very enjoyable trip.
There was a NYS law at that time [1975] that required a flagman to walk in advance of any engine on stationary rails.
The tracks were paved over in the early 80's even though I'm sure the DOT didn't check with NYCT before they did the work.
Doug aka BMTman
03/10/2000
I haven't seen N1 and N2 in years, since they must apply to FRA regulations, do they also have "ditch lights" ?
Bill Newkirk
I would assume so.
Doug aka BMTman
Heydoug--what are "ditch lights"
Peace,
Andee
[what are "ditch lights"]
They are lights the light up the DITCH next to the tracks. You can see them on M-N diesels & Amtrak passenger cars, as well as engines.
High platform RT cars, obviously, have no need for them.
Mr t__:^)
Some of the A/B standards had them (the one at Branford has them).
Doug aka BMTman
Wasn't there also a "Q" that had the headlights mounted near the roof?
Does anyone have the number?
Ditch Lights are the two lowest headlights on a locomotive or cab car. Any loco or cab car that may be operated in areas where there are grade crossings MUST be equipped with Ditch Lights. This is why MNCR and LIRR added headlights to the roofs of their MU cars (LIRR did a better job) This increases the visibility of the train, so hopefully no one will get in front of it.
O --->Headlight
/ \
O---O --->Ditch Lights
(A very poor attempt at explaining them)
-Hank
Thanks to you people, Off Subtalk is no more. It's only there because I can't delete it. If someone thinks they can breathe life into it, then it's all yours, e-mail me.
i don't think you promoted it enough
i joined it right away, as i found the idea appealing--- i have been giving the idea of controlling off post messages a lot of thought--- voluntary methods may not work--- that is why i have been quietly spreading a specially designed virus to people who frequently discuss politics on this website---this is the real reason doug has not been able to post---
to discourage posts about politics, here is how the virus works--- it replicates and makes changes in the copy of the poster--- a known hillary hater's post will be turned into a post revealing an obsession with getting one of her shoes--- someone whose post reveals a strong dislike of gays will have their post rewritten in a very campy fey style---people who are strong supporters of english as this nation's only language will have their posts rewritten in a blend of black english, yiddish, and patois--- people who assume the very urbane style of william f. buckley will have their posts rewritten in the style of archie bunker
perhaps this will discourage political posts and encourage more relevant discussions of abbott and costello, moe larry and curly , the caine mutiny, mack buses, and the differences between pigs and humans
How did this post read before the virus changed it?
i just subjected your post to dna analysis and it shows that your original post was
the colonies were better off with king george---
instead of king george on the currency they have another despot--george washington
I tried to find it when I logged on and they couldn't locate offsubtalk for me. Is their a proper way to write in the designation. I'm anxious to get on. Do I use caps for subtalk and are there spaces between the words? Someone clue me in because it's the perfect place to go after Hillary and her crowd.
No Politics Fred
That's the whole point, a seperate message board devoted to subjects considered off-topic here. Rudy, Hillary, Gore,Bush Economics, NIMBYS, Mark Green. Heck I wonder if Dave could link to Off Sub Talk, It certainly would simplify management of SubTalk.
Good idea! If Dave really is expending a lot of money to keep this outstanding website going, maybe we could contribute a couple of dollars or so a month to help defray the cost. Just an idea. I know he doesn't enjoy all the non-subway stuff that gets on this website, but sometimes it can't be avoided.
That is what Off Sub Talk was for. Everything under the was allowed, but Pigs of Royal Island clued me in that the website was a complete fiasco. I suspected as much when I couldn't find the thing. Oh well,it looks as if there will be a political not or two on this line after all. It's more exciting that hearing all about the Manny B's lack of progress or what is happening up in the Bronx at Pelham Parkway. Even you have to admit that.
It was not a FIASCO, I claimed it to be a failure! However, I'll stay with it for now. It's now part of the OSMI group, which includes a self updating MVM list (which may mean the end of colorized bullets on that list).
I tried to find it when I logged on and they couldn't locate offsubtalk for me. Is their a proper way to write in the designation. I'm anxious to get on. Do I use caps for subtalk and are there spaces between the words? Someone clue me in because it's the perfect place to go after Hillary and her crowd.
No Politics Fred
That's the whole point, a seperate message board devoted to subjects considered off-topic here. Rudy, Hillary, Gore,Bush Economics, NIMBYS, Mark Green. Heck I wonder if Dave could link to Off Sub Talk, It certainly would simplify management of SubTalk.
Good idea! If Dave really is expending a lot of money to keep this outstanding website going, maybe we could contribute a couple of dollars or so a month to help defray the cost. Just an idea. I know he doesn't enjoy all the non-subway stuff that gets on this website, but sometimes it can't be avoided.
That is what Off Sub Talk was for. Everything under the was allowed, but Pigs of Royal Island clued me in that the website was a complete fiasco. I suspected as much when I couldn't find the thing. Oh well,it looks as if there will be a political not or two on this line after all. It's more exciting that hearing all about the Manny B's lack of progress or what is happening up in the Bronx at Pelham Parkway. Even you have to admit that.
It was not a FIASCO, I claimed it to be a failure! However, I'll stay with it for now. It's now part of the OSMI group, which includes a self updating MVM list (which may mean the end of colorized bullets on that list).
Looking back at the past, I was much funnier then.
Yeah, Paul, we all had more of a sense of humor back in the good ol' days of pre-911....sadly we were all much younger then...alas, the innonence of youth...(or is that yout...as in 'what's a yout?'*)
*Line borrowed from Fred Gwynne in 'My Cousin Vinnie'.
Subtalk hasn't been a complete failure, but to prevent it from becoming one, people must accept these following truths:
1. American Pig is always right except when he is wrong.
2. Everyone other than American Pig is always wrong except when he or she is right.
3. The parts of the truths printed in white text apply more often than the parts printed in black.
Not again? Paul, you have to stay away from the WayBak Machine.
NO NO NO, Heypaul is dredging up all of this old stuff as practice for his main objective: scooping a train of reefbirds out of the ocean and fixing them up.
I could use it if I could be webmaster (its subject would be totally non-subway related). If there is a way to do this, let me know. I may need a BBS board like this so not having to DL would be nice.
So you won't join without this being YOUR board?
You dont seem to have a need for it, do you? If not, I'd be glad to take the reins.
You can join if you want, you need to e-mail offsubtalk-subscribe@egroups.com. Leave the message blank, nobody gets to read it.
I tried to access it, but my browser had trouble with egroups.com because it didn't support cookies. Maybe you should switch it to deja.com or talkway.com (if they are still around).
I don't think so. I'm not going to switch to support everybody's little browser quirks. Even Lynx supports cookies. I'm also sick of people on USENET complaining about HTML posts.
GET INTO THE 21ST CENTURY PEOPLE!
Mr. PORI: Lighten up a little. We know you gave it a good shot and I'm just as sorry as you are that it didn't fly. Thank goodness we still have this website working. I'd be lost without it. That's a great consolation for all of us.
Mr. PORI: Lighten up a little. We know you gave it a good shot and I'm just as sorry as you are that it didn't fly. Thank goodness we still have this website working. I'd be lost without it. That's a great consolation for all of us.
Actually, I was being heavy on people who are against USENET HTML messages.
Anyway, if you still want to join, you can e-mail offsubtalk-subscribe@egroups.com. You just won't be able to chat or participate in polls. Although those aren't to popular. You will still get messages.
I've decided to bring back Off Subtalk. The original members are members again, and I've joined Sea Beach Fred as per his request.
Now please tell me exactly how to access it. Tell me clearly and I will write it down and get on it. Please do this and I don;t want to read about any damn cookies or other crap. I want off sub talk, or is it Off Sub Talk, or is it offsubtalk, or is it OffSubTalk? Chao!
fred--- you can get to the main site by
www.egroups.com/group/offsubtalk/info.html
to encourage people to join in the next 5 days, we
will waive the psychiatric consult with drs. howard,
fine and howard--- (just a joke)
all wackos are welcome
Anybody who joins from now until Friday will get a FREE gift.
A free copy of any local paper for Friday, February 17, 2000.
Now please tell me exactly how to access it. Tell me clearly and I will write it down and get on it. Please do this and I don;t want to read about any damn cookies or other crap. I want off sub talk, or is it Off Sub Talk, or is it offsubtalk, or is it OffSubTalk? Chao!
Anyone have any info about the Trolley musuem at Steamtown being opened yet and has anyone in subtalk been there yet?
i just checked the website for steamtown in
scranton-- there was no mention of a trolley
museum--- here is the website----
http://www.nps.gov/stea/index.htm
It's open (sort of) - I haven't been there yet. Most if not all of its collection came from the Buckingham Valley folks. It's properly called the Lackawanna Valley Trolley Museum - click on the name for a link to the website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm surprised they aren't going for rides yet, even short ones, as some wire is up ... I'ld say about a mile or two so far. When they get done stringing wire it will be a nice long ride ... just as good as the 13 miles each way to Moscow that the steam train does there.
Mr t__:^)
Its officially called the Electric City museum, it was written up in Railpace about 1-2 months ago. I heard its nascent but quite nice. Haven't been there though....
I wonder when they eliminated the terminal at 137th Street during some midday and weekend.
When #9 service was begun in August 1989. Back then, it ran all day long, not just during rush hours like today.
There is a recent article in a Chicago paper about the CTA considering letting the T/O don pin stripe Bib Overalls, caps and boe ties. I got four e-mails of this from vaious friends ... guess word has got around about this swamp yankee tranplanted to NYC (I actually grew up on a small farm, pitched hay, shoveled cow flops, and got chased by roosters). As a new trolley operator will you see me in bib overalls & boe tie ... it's not the standard uniform, but maybe. Thanks to all my friends for thinking of me when they saw the article !
Mr t__:^)
Thurston... I'm sure you'll make a great trolley operator up at Branford, and I predict you will go on to become an executive at the trolley company...
Paul, you gotta stay away from the WayBack Machine. Rocky & Bullwinkle are already on your trail.
Paul, you are a true seer of the future like NostrilDumbass :)
Heh. Means I can bring my choochoo hat (genuine Southern Railway issue) and wear it proudly in the cab instead of my Indiana Jones fedora. Woohoo! :)
Last night at 8 PM the March edition aired on LI's channel 80, and yes yours truely got his 10 to 15 seconds of air time. I'm labeled a Retailer/Collector. There were only a few shots of the show itself, incl. host Greg Lobi. Also included some background stuff, e.g. first retail MC, future "commerative" cards comming, shots of TA shop that does the art work, etc.
Also:
- TA's Central Elect. Shop, incl. intervierw with nycDOT, & cTc attendees, but not my friend from LI Bus who was also there. Look for my friend Malcom, he's the TWU shop steward ... go Malcom !
- Museum of Natural History & Hyden Planetarium
- Switch repl at E terminal at Chambers, incl. lots of shots of R-32s
- T/O with a very unique hobby, hint he's a Master at it.
Mr t__:^)
I was able to see the show this morning on channel 34 in Brooklyn. Congrats Thurston.
I wasn't able to see it yet... High school basketball was in its time slot last Saturday on WNYE-25. BTW, thanx 4D preview!
I would like to know where is the border line between the BMT
Southern and Eastern Divisions. Which is the location at the follow-
ing 5 places?:
(1) Chambers Street-Centre Street Station
(2) South of Chambers Street-Centre Street Station
(3) Broad Street Station
(4) South of Broad Street Station
(5) Point where Nassau Street Line merges with Broadwy Line in the
Montague Street Tunnel.
I don't think there was ever a border, but the Eastern Division consisted of the Nassau St/Bway Bklyn line, the Myrtle Ave line (gone south of Bway), the Fulton St el (only the Queens portion still exists), the 14th St./Canarsie line and the Lexington Ave. el (gone).
The only area that both eastern and southern division trains ran together was on the Nassau St. line between Chambers St. and Broad St. (pre 1967, when everything got mixed together).
Interesting question: what part was the Franklin shuttle considered part of? It conected to both divisions at either end.
Don't forget the Jamaica Ave. line. After all, the R-16s made their debut there.
In Brooklyn, I think of the Eastern Division of everything north of the IRT east of Mevins Street, and the Southern Division as everything south of the IRT past Nevins.
Orignally, the eastern division consisted of all the lines that merged at Broadway Junction, and the Southern Division as all the lines that merged in Coney Island. I think of the IND Fulton St Line (A/C) as the successor of the Fulton El, and the G line as the successor of the Myrtle/Lexington Els, putting both in the Eastern Division. The F hooks into the old Culver, making it a Southern Division line.
Right. I kinda thought saying the BMT Broadway/Nassau St. line included the entire J line.
The BMT Broadway (N, R) line is tied into the Southern Division. You could say the Montague St. tunnel is common ground in addition to the Nassau St. line.
True, but prior to 1967 (the last time the eastern/southern division thing meant anything), no eastern division trains ventured onto the Montague St. tunnel. Only southern division trains, like the Banker's specials, and the TT and #5 Culver trains (prior to 1959) used this trackage.
True, but prior to 1967 (the last time the
eastern/southern division thing meant anything), no
eastern division trains ventured onto the Montague
St. tunnel. Only southern division trains, like the
Banker's specials, and the TT and #5 Culver trains
(prior to 1959) used this trackage.
...The only area that both eastern and southern division trains ran together was on the Nassau St. line between Chambers St. and Broad St. (pre 1967, when everything got mixed together)....
What about the Myrtle Ave El Tracks between Bridge St and Sands St Loop? Eastern District Myrtle and Lexington Ave Lines mixed with Culver, West End and Bay Ridge Lines. I would assume that Sands St - Park Row section was neutral ground.
You're right I completely forgot about that.
The Franklin Shuttle was originally a branch of the Fulton El, as was the Brighton trackage prior to the DeKalb connection. (Remember, Edward Luciano missed the Franklin cut-off in Nov. 1918, and had to back up!) So I guess you could assign the shuttle to the Eastern division.
But when the DeKalb connection opened, the track connection to the Fulton was severed, so the shuttle was connected only to the southern div. So it's either that, or you'd have to make the entire Brighton line prior to 1920 eastern div. Plus, the 5th Av. el branched off of the Myrtle. They weren't built as separate "divisions", so it wasn't all that clear, but the definitions are whether the line went to soutthern Brooklyn or Eastern Brooklyn. By that standard, southbound branches of eastbound trunk lines (and come together at a southern point) would still be a southern div.
As for Nassau St. the basic border would be the junction with the Montague tunnel, but when the southern div, had trains terminating at Chambers or using the loop to the bridge, you could consider the tunnel to the bridge as common ground. And when the Williamsburg bridge was closed, the entire line to Essex was severed from the east, and connected only to the south. (I wish they had used southern equipment to further show this)
[ Was Franklin Shuttle part of Southern or Eastern Division ]
I'm not certain what year the BRT/BMT formally adopted Souther Division/Eastern Division, but no later than 1924 it assigned numbers 1-7 to the Southern Division, 8 & 9 to Queens, and 10 and up to the Eastern Division.
It is reasonable to assume that the Franklin was Southern Division for as long as the Southern Division existed, even while connected to the Fulton L. When numbers were assigned, Franklin became 7--Southern Division.
It's interesting to note that the Franklin is still chained from Park Row via the former Fulton Street L, and it has a separate chaining letter ('O') than the Brighton ('A')
(It's interesting to note that the Franklin is still chained from Park Row via the former Fulton Street L, and it has a separate chaining letter ('O') than the Brighton ('A') )
What does that mean?
03/10/2000
I guess he's talking about the numbers on the signal cases. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Bill Newkirk
Yes, for signal purposes, the Franklin Shuttle is Line "O." (That's letter O, not zero).
The numbers on the Framklin signals indicate the distance from Park Row via the Fulton Street L. The rest of the Brighton Line is measured from 57-7th on the Broadway Line.
The BMT number code was adopted when the first Triplexes arrived in 1925. As we know, its use was sporadic, as only a small percentage of rolling stock was equipped to display these markings.
Actually, the BMT route numbers were used on their maps and in their internal documents even before the Triplexes arrived.
-- Ed Sachs
I am showing two out of the 5 lines, but this will show where the lines make their stops.
2nd Avenue Local- 8 Line
Gun Hill Road- Norwood
204 Street
Bedford Park Boulevard
Fordham Circle/ Third Avenue
180 Street
Tremont Avenue
Claremont Parkway
168 street
163 Street
Westchester Avenue- The Hub
138 Street- Lincoln Avenue
East 125 Street- Manhattan
East 116 Street
East 110 Street
East 105 Street
East 97-96 Street
East 86 Street
East 79-80 Streets
East 72 Street
East 65 Street
East 59 Street
East 50 Street
East 42 Street
East 34 Street
East 23 Street
East 14 Street
Avenue C
East Houston Street
Grand Street- East Broadway
Flatbush Avenue- Brooklyn
Tillary Street- Downtown Brooklyn
Atlantic Avenue
4th Avenue
Vanderbilt Avenue
Franklin Avenue
Brooklyn Avenue
Utica Avenue- Ocean Hill
2nd Ave Express- 14 Line/ Dyre Avenue Express
Dyre Avenue- Eastchester
Pehlam Parkway
Morris Park
East 180 Street
East 174 Street
Westchester Avenue
Story Avenue
Elder Avenue
Longfellow Avenue
Longwood Avenue
149 Street
Westchester Avenue- The Hub
East 125 Street- Manhattan
East 42 Street-United Nations
East 14 Street
Grand Street- East Broadway
Wall Street
South Street-Battery Park
St.George Subway Terminal- S.I
Tompkinsville
Stapleton
Clifton
Grasmere
Old Town
Dongan Hills
Jefferson Avenue
Grant City
New Dorp
Oakwood Hights
Bay Terrance
Great Kills
Eltingville
Annadale
Huguenot
Princes Bay
Pleasant Plains
Richmond Valley
Atlantic
Main Street-Tottenville
14 Line- S.I Rush Hour Stops
One Direction Only
5:00am-11:59am-To Manhattan
12:00pm-7:59pm-To Tottenville
St.George Subway Terminal
Stapleton
Grant City
Bay Terrance
Annadale
Richmond Valley
Main Street-Tottenville
I have only shown two lines if you want to see the rest of the plan just send an e-mail. I will send a detailed version, the other 3 lines will be shown, under which roads the lines are under, type of tunnel, tunnel depth, and more.
i am surprised that no one has commented on christopher's ambitious plans--- i for one think he is at the forefront of transit planning in the region--- my high opinion of his plan has nothing to do with the fact that the heypaul construction company has been selected as prime contractor of this $6.5 billion project --- one of my workers, pigs of royal island, has already begun the preliminary boarings...
What about the north side of S.I. across Arthur Kill to Newark Aieport and a tie to the P.A.T.H?
avid
avid reader suggests extending the 2nd line from staten island into jersey--- it sounds great to me--- it'll mean another billion dollars into my pockets, and a few extra pennies for my workers like pigs--- he might even be able to afford to buy his own copy of the new york times, instead of fishing it out of the garbage can
The BNC pays me well, I also embezzle when necessary. Since the Boarshevik Boarganization is not officially sanctioned, embezzlement there is not a crime. Plus, I'm only a pig, you humans would laugh if a pig accused somepig or was accused of stealing funds from a boarganization.
oink !!! oink ??? !!
Yes, oink !!! oink !!
typical respose from the TRANVERSE CAB FAN HDQ. !!!
typical respose from the ANENCEPHALIC NARROW CAB FAN HDQ. !!!
now now !! leave heypaul alone he is a nice guy get to know him and you will find this out too !!!
Actually, Christopher has posted plans like this before. He's a very ambitious young man, that's for sure. I know he'll be able to give a most definitive answer to any guidance counselor who asks, "So, do you know what you want to do after high school?"
My plans, back when I was old Eugenius D. Train where more ambitious. Then I decided to stop hiding my hamitage.
in today's times, there is an interesting article on
the people who designed the exterior of the
metrocard machines--- the designers have also
designed the interiors of the new subway cars---
metrocard machine article
Interesting article, thanks for the link.
I particularily liked that the new cars are designed to look like they have a nose and in gereral to resemble a face vs. the R-44 which is reather plain up front.
Mr t__:^)
Sort of takes you back to a prior thread on the value of aesthetics, i that case on station beautification vs. infrastructure improvements like the DeKalb-Rutgers link. The author of the article clearly believes aesthetics are important.
Well....they are!
" ... station beautification vs. infrastructure ..."
What they did to the whole Franklin Shuttle route might be considered carrying the beautification theme to an extreme ... It is very nice and something for us all to be proud of, but how much of the limited funds did it deprive from infrastructure work ?
They spent a lot of money on restoration detail at M-N 125th Sta.
Couldn't they fixed up the station without all that fancy wood and tile work ?
Maybe it's high time the MTA made the subway stations beautiful ? What do you folks think ? I'ld rather see the money go into the system somewhere vs. some fancy office at Jay or Livingston Plaza !
Mr t__:^)
Isn't that the same thinking that alowed the money to go to the 2nd Av Line to dissapear?
No wonder the R142s have red patches around the headlights and a red gradient stripe at the first door of the A car.
Chaohwa
From what I understand the red front and stripe on the "A" units are to denote the wheelchair positions in the R142. Makes it easier for those that need it.
Joe Caronetti
I use the D and Q line often and whenver the trains is entering prospect park there is set of 2 cars for the franklin shuttle. I never see it move though. I am wondering is this car for rush hour only or what is it there for then?
The Franklin Avenue Shuttle uses only 2 trains during rush hours. The set outside is used as a spare. Such as, just in case 1 is vandalized that one will be outside ready.
I remember seeing such a set south of the staion on track A2, north of where D trains move to track A4.
A few times I saw a 2 car train on track A1 at Prospect Park. Same purpose? If so, how would it enter service? Go south and cross 3 tracks to A2 (A3-A4-A2) or go north via the You Know What (hint: 11-01-1918) to O1 and cross over to O2 after it passes the switch?
The only time a set would wrong rail (go against normal traffic) through that tunnel is for General Orders that are in effect, basically a single track operation the entire length of the shuttle. I'm inclined to go with the set turning south of Prospect Park, crossing all tracks, A1-A4, and proceed back into Prospect Park on the shuttle platform to pickup passengers going up to Franklin Av.
-Stef
Do they actually reverse across all four like that? It seems that with 2 trains, one would be authorized to operate on each station track at Prospect Park. Then they could both reverse out without tying up the Brighton line.
There's no other way for them to move that light train around, since the spare is held between the switches at Prospect Park. This is the case if the train were on the southbound track. At least if it were on the northbound side it would breeze into the platform with little or no delay.
Just food for thought.
-Stef
That sounds like the TA way. Clog up 4 tracks (well, 2 that matter) when one could just as easily do a reverse move.
-Hank
They no longer store the spare within the station because of easy access and temptation to yoots...(Youths)
Just added to the R142 page are some photos of the R142 in the shop including closeups of the various parts (trucks, couplers, etc) courtesy Steve K.
Also I put up Pete's Newark Subway photos in the Newark subway section.
-Dave
Great! We went from 2 prototype pics and 5 grainy clipped-from-video night shots to 39 total pics in just a few days!
-Hank
in the middle of the business section there is a charles schwab 2 page ad with a classic shot of grand central station's interior --- the picture is 18X25 and has no advertising on it--- it is really suitable for framing--- i couldn't access it on the new york times website, but it's worth the 75 cents just for the picture---
if there is anyone from out of town who is interested in the picture from this ad, and you cannot get your hands on a copy of the times--- i am going to pick up at least 6 copies of the today's times and will be happy to mail the ad to you---
e-mail me with your name and address if you're interested--- try to do it before 9 pm, as it may be hard to find copies of the paper after that time
No it won't, and guess where? GRAND CENTRAL! I make it a habit to pick the newspaper out of the discarded newspaper bins in that terminal. I got them at 8 AM this morning. People really throw away their papers early.
One man's trash is another man's treasure....
Also, I might remind you that offering to mail the newspaper is foolish. By mailing the ad alone, you will have incurred a cost of one dollar and eight cents, which includes the cost of the newspaper in the New York Metropolitan Area and the cost of one ounce postage. One living outside of New York could have obtained the entire newspaper for only one dollar.
Pigs of Royal Island
Dissecting foolishness for the last one hundred seconds.
I have been double posting lately because when I post forthe first time I get a "No info gathered, try again" on the screen with a big Netscape square to set it off. I do it the second time and all is ok. Bear with me. I will try to get this problem worked out.
Someone at work told me that many years ago when ferry service was provided across the Hudson River to the railroad terminals in New Jersey, you could actually board a passenger rail car that was in the ferry. Can this be true?....and if so, which railroad provided such service.
No, but there was ferry service between lower Manhattan and Jersey City, which was the end of the line for the Pennsylvania Railroad's New York service before Manhattan's Penn Station opened at 33rd Street and the Weehawken tunnel was completed in 1905, allowing through-service into Manhattan and beyond to Long Island. After that, Pennsy's Jersey City segment became a spur, and the terminal much less important. You could still take a ferry during the 20th Century, and you can now. Mostly they serve commuters who drive to Jersey City and take the NY Waterway ferry. There was/is also ferry service from Hoboken, which was the terminus of the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western, later the Erie Lackawanna, and now NJ Transit.
Neither ferry ever physically connected to any rail on Manhattan, so floating passenger cars across the Hudson (with customers aboard!) would have been pointless. Your friend may be thinking of the freight car-floating, which still occurs to this day to move rail shipments from NJ & Staten Island to and from Brooklyn/Long Island. At least until Mayor Giulianni gets his tunnel built!
There was a rail passenger ferry service prior to openning of the Hell Gate Bridge - the PRR and the NH exchanged passenger cars complete with passengers via a large rail ferry that ran from Jersey City up to Mott Haven. After the ship "Maryland" burned at Mott Haven, they moved float operation up to Fishkill and then took the cars over to Newburgh. The service moved back to Mott Haven later and continued until 1917-1918.
I have a description of the operation (extracted from a book) at:
http://bjr.acf.nyu.edu/railinfo/car-floats/rail-ferry-info.html
It is one of the many pages that make up Penny Bridge - my web site that mostly carries information about the rail-marine operations in and around the New York City area.
Rail-Marine operations start at:
http://bjr.acf.nyu.edu/railinfo/car-floats/car-floats.html
Hope this helps, but it ended long, long ago.
Bill
My sometimes Manhattan-centric thinking made me forget about the NH before Hell Gate Bridge. It's easy to forget that major projects aren't ever completed all at once. It DID take a few more years after the completion of Penn Station for the NY Connecting Railroad to complete the PRR's through service to New England. Still, there were no PRR passenger cars rolling off ferry's at New York's Hudson Terminals, which was my point. I hope I can be forgiven, as this was WAY before my time!
What a weird sensation that must have been, though. Now long gone. I do look forward to browsing the sites you mentioned.
KP
There are currently no rail freight movements to or from Staten Island by any method. There have been no car floats since at least 1987.
-Hank
I sit and type corrected -- again.
So where do freight trains cross the Hudson nowadays?
Here are some more R142A photos done on 3/9/2000 By Trevor Logan
David: You can add these photos to the R142 Section also!
Trevor Logan
Is the 2nd one (E180) a <8> sign?
Nope its a "S" with a diamond around it, I couldn't catch it with the "8" sign, timing was horrible!
Trevor
These are some good pictures. I hope that I could hop a ride in two week on my next voction. That is if that they let TA worker ride on them.
how about some redbird pics for a change?
I got plenty of those this past Tuesday. I have them developed. Will scan them soon.
R36Gary
There are plenty in the Illustrated Subway Car Roster. You even have whitebirds there too.
Thanks, nice shots! I'm putting them on the R142 page right now.
-Dave
Thanks David!
Trevor
nice pictures !! queation is he r 142 railfan window equipped
or blocked off with a transverse cab ??
Unfortunately it has a transverse cab
transverse cabs are a TOTAL DRAG !!! how are any of us going to shoot a railfan vidieo out of it !!! ( R 142S )
maybe the r 142s will fail like the 110bs did !!!!!!!!!!
i dont mind something new but why do they insist on the tranverse cab only and no railfan window !!! ????????
wont be worth the trip to new york anymore when the
railfan window equipped subway cars are gone !!!!
then what in the hell are you supposed to do ????????
sit in the middle of the train like a dumb little @@##$#$!!
motormen tell me there is no transverse cab advantage !!
especially in the winter when the heater is weak !!!
AND THE TRANVERSE CAB LEAKS FREEZING AIR !!!!
Everybody hates transverse cabs Why do they make them
One word: OPTO.
GOD HELP US ALL! OPTO IS GONNA KILL THE TERM "RAILFANNING"!
Trevor Logan
Why do people think that all railfanning involves looking out the front window? Automatically, someone who doesn't enjoy looking out the front window, or even finds it BORING would not be classified a railfan by this narrow view.
I personally don't find it BORING! Many do. I love the subway, railfan window or not. SO I don't have a narrow view of "Railfanning." My favorite cars happens to be the R46 cars, No railfan window there!!!!!!!
Trevor Logan
OK, good. But some people DO consider that to be a railfan you have to enjoy the front view. You could find it interesting, I find it boring, we are both entitled to our opinions.
I agree. I do my railfanning from the comfort of a foward facing window seat, preferably on an R46.
Looks like we have alot in common Chris. I love the R46 subway cars! #1 on my list, the R142s are second!
Trevor
Next to the R46, the R42 is my second favorite car, with the R36WF a close third.
And of course, my favorite car thats since been retired is rather obvious given my handle.
Got another R142 fan here too! The new cars are going to finally bring some respect to the 2 and 5 lines.
I SO AGREE WITH YOU MAN, R46/R142s FOREVER!!!!!!
Trevor
eliminate the transverse cab THEN I WILL JOIN YOUR R -46 R 142 club !!!
but the TRANSVERSE CAB SUBWAY CAR CLUB has to go !!!
after all the FRONT has the BEST VIEW......... unless you are too LAZY TO STAND !!!!!!
Sorry, SIKE! I love my railfan windows. But the R46 and R142 just strikes a chord with me. Standing at a front window is not all there is to railfanning, its being on the cars, relishing the speed, the gracefulness, the sounds, NOT JUST LOOKING OUT OF A WINDOW!
Some people need to re-evaulate the meaning of railfan because if you look at it as just looking out of a window. YOUR IN FOR A SHOCKER AND A TASTE OF REALITY.
Trevor
That's a great attitude. I try to do all my railfanning from the side window, the front window is too boring, transverse cabs make the end look straight and even, and you don't have to worry about the conductor moving between cars.
Thank you. You have to open minded in this hobby. I am all around transit buff, even with me and the buses. I give the new buses a chance while everyone is like, OH MY GOD NEW BUSES, EEWWWWWW!! I'm like bring it on, something else new to learn about. And the same goes with subway cars. Transverse Cabs or Not, You can still "railfan."
Trevor Logan
There are times when I will look out the side windows. Specifically, I'll sneak a peek when the express train I'm on is skipping a local stop. I always got a kick out of the strobe effect from the I-beams. It's even more pronounced at 135th St. with those storage tracks. The ultimate look through the side was at 81st St. while roaring past it on an A train of R-10s. It was a blur. Interestingly enough, even though the R-10s (and, for that matter, the R-1/9s, R-12s, R-14s, and R-62/62As) had/have that small single window at each end opposite the cab, looking through it wasn't/isn't the same as looking through the side door windows. Must be the different I-beam angle.
I also look out the side windows a lot. And so do almost ALL little kids (age 2-6) when their folks (or whoever) bring them onto the subway. Invariably, they will kneel on the seats and face the windows to look out. I see no problem with that, but sometimes uptight parents angrily tell them to turn around. Why not let the kid enjoy the ride?
Facing the window is not an option for us adults when sitting down, but if I have to stand, I try to find a space by a door, and I stand facing out the door window. Most people seem to stand facing into the car, which I don't understand. THAT is boring.
Sorry to burst everybody's bubbles (actually, I'm not), but railfans are rarely a consideration in the railcar design process.
The typical railcar is built for the convenience and benefit of (1) the riding public; (2) the crew; (3) the transit agency (through accommodations for the public, the crew, and supervisiory personnel).
THIS IS SOOOOOOOOOO TRUE! The Transverse cab was designed with the operator in mind for more room, plus the idea of OPTO (One Person Train Operation).
Trevor
03/14/2000
Transverse cabs - The R-44 and R46 started it all!
But the roots go back to the BMT Green Hornet, Multi-section and Bluebird cars. Of course OPTO was the reason for the transverse cab.
Bill Newkirk
I'm sure conductors loved the new transverse cabs when the R44's started showing up in 1972. No more going from one car to the other to open the doors one side or the other.
sure about that ?? who told you this ??
Nobody needs to be told this. It's obvious that transverse cabs don't require movement between cars for the conductor. Anyone with a brain will realise this, of course, that excludes you.
sinse you are the BIG DUMMY how did conductors do the same thing before the days of your
stupid litte TRSANSVERSE CAB FAN CLUB DAYS ?????? conductors did it without tranverse cabs stupid !!
example : CLASSICS like the R - 1 BMT ""B"" & "" D "" youre the one who needs a brain !!!!!!!!!
LET'S GET'S READY TO RUMBLE!!!!!
Trevor
MY BROTHER !! i glad you liked my railfan window tape !!
NOW !!! IF YOU CAN PUT ME INSIDE THE TRANS VERSE CAB ( maybe you have connections )
i can shoot my vidieos thru the railfan window like i did the REDBIRDS and then you can have a
FREE RAILFAN VIDIEO FROM ME !!! ( I will pay the cost brother ) Next time i am in new york !!??
ANYBODY CARE TO TAKE ME UP ON MY OFFER ??????????
CALL MY BLUFF TRANSVERE CAB SUBWAY CAR FANS !!!!! go ahead make my day !!!!!!
GUESS WHAT BROTHER! I KNOW JUST THE PERSON TO SPEAK TO, AND I'LL SEE WHAT I CAN DO!!!
Trevor
TREVOR MY BROTHER !! THEN I COULD BE ( THIS FALL ) THE FIRST ONE TO SHOOT A VIDIEO
FROM INSIDE A TRANSVERSE CAB LIKE YOU CAN DO WITH A REDBIRDS NOW
ESPECIALLY WITH THE R 142 I WOULD SHOOT IT THRU THE FRONT WINDOW !!
I SHOULD BE THERE NEXT FALL CAN I HOLD YOUR WORD ON THIS ??
HOW DID YOU LIKE MY LAST VIDIEO I SENT YOU ???
The last video you shot was great. I can't promise you the transverse ride. BUT I will see what I can do for you. It never hurts to ask around. I will keep you abreast of the outcome.
Trevor Logan
THANK YOU TAKE ME UP ON IT BROTHER !!!
FREE VIDIEO FOR YOU IF YOU CAN PUT ME IN THERE !!!
ALSO I RE SHOT THE # 5 AND THEN I SHOT THE L & J LINES FOUR HOURS LONG
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
You may get to shoot a video from a transverse cab but I sincerely doubt that it will be from an R-142 or R-142A - at least until they enter revenue service. Some of us (dummies) have more to say about it than others, my brother.
i thought you said you had CONNECTIONS pigs are the dummies !!!
I do, I don't know about Train Dude?!?!?
Trevor
Trevor, trust me - Train Dude has connections too......Large ones.
Just don't insult them....
-Hank :)
(Whose Hippo train got up to 40 on the CPW LOCAL making express stops Tuesday night; if I had to guess at an average speed, i'd say 35. Speedo never dipped below 23)
It had to be nearly empty.-)
Semi-rim shot.
Hearing it from you just makes me want to laugh.
It's like being called filthy by someone who's never bathed.
Um, PIG?!?!?
-Hank :)
You shouldn't be stereotyping pigs! Why do you think I hate the R-33 singles so much? Because they have no A/C. Unlike humans, pigs have very bad sweat glands and have difficulty keeping cool. Rather than risking some serious complications, we roll around in mud to cool off. Now when we have a nice A/Ced room, we're very clean and fastidious.
bring your mud with you and sit IN THE BACK OF THE R 33 ( clean up your mess before you leave ) oink !! oink !!
pigs have very bad sweat glands and have difficulty keeping cool. Rather than risking some serious complications, we roll around in mud to cool off. Now when we have a nice A/Ced room, we're very clean and fastidious.
I don't know, seems like you've been slinging a lot lately ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What have pigs ever done to you?
Nothing wrong. He said something about being called filthy. I just pointed out the irony of the statement.
-Hank
wait a minute PIGS DONT BATHE ! they just flam on subtalk !! oink !! oink !!!
"sinse you are the BIG DUMMY......."
Before we start calling each other dummy, I'd try to get my spelling straight. S - I - N - C - E . I'm quite sure your SAT scores were not in the top 50% of your class.
he who is a PERFECT word processor cast THE FIRST STONE !! or forever remain SILENT dummy !!!
There are people who don't type well, or who don't have the brainpower to spell.
How do you have the same typo ALL THE TIME???
But I'm wrong for fighting with this mental midget.
look man i have seen you with typo too and word processor errors too !!!
talk about a mental midget ?? look at yourself in any mirror !!!
Let's see...they started out on the anticlimbers OUTSIDE the train. Go ahead, tell me that's safe in rain and snow on a moving train.
Then they wound up in the cabs, crossing between cars, again in the rain and snow. Now they hav a cab that allows them to open doors on both sides of the train, without having to cross between cars, no weather exposure, an actual place to keep their grip where it will be secure. Better comfort control, no wet, no cold, no ice...
A much better system, all around.
-Hank
Question
I notice on one picture the car displays 6 as opposed to 6.
Can these signs show the different colors of the routes?
Look down a bit - there about 50 posts covering that exact topic in the last two days...
what advantage is there with a stupid little transverse cab equipped subway car ???
why is the transverse cab so wonderful ?? you r 142 fans ?????
I am a huge R142A (Kawasaki) fan, not too big on the R142 (Bombardier). I'd rather it be that the railfan window is kept but motorman's comfort has become more important (Which is should be).
The advantage of a transverse cab is that the motorman has more room and not the feeling of being closed up in a locker, so to speak.
AND THAT'S THE ONLY ADVANTAGE I SEE OF IT, OTHERWISE, DOWN WITH TRANSVERSE!
Trevor Logan
motorman MR ALLEN dyre avenue # 5 told me there is no TRANSVERSE CAB COMFORT ADVANTAGE!!
remember this is vetran who told me this !!!!!!!
That was the ultimate goal of making it transverse, I didn't say it was comfortable, that was the thought of a transverse cab. They only transverse cab I can say is really spacious and comfortable is one on the R46s. The R44s are really crampy, the R68s are ok, the R62s can get crampy also if your a huge person or tall. The R110Bs cab is nice, so is the R110As, the R142 is pretty decent.
I have had a chance to sit in all of these cabs. I'm not a very big person but on some of these, if I was tall, I'd have to change positions in the TA. By Far, for me, the R46 and the R142 cabs were by far the most comfortable.
Trevor Logan
ok !!!! did a motorman ( currently employed tell you this ?? ) i head different from MR ALLEN
motorman for and of DYRE AVE # 5 redbirds he likes the best !!!!!!!!
BIG F-ING DEAL!!!!!
Ask 100 motormen, you'll get 100 answers. So what if ONE motorman said he likes the redbird? You'll fine 20 who hate it, 20 who don't really give a damn, 20 who like it, 20 who will say it's none of your business, and 20 who absolutely love the cab. And those 20 will tell you what they think is wrong with it.
-Hank
No, My comment was based on self experience with sitting in cabs of the subway cars. I'm the kinda person that bases all my conclusions off of self experience because you can't base it off of what everyone tells you.
Trevor
Question
I notice on one picture the car displays 6 as opposed to 6.
Can these signs show the different colors of the routes?
Actually that was a "5".
Trevor
No.
The fifth picture down: does that say "0" (zero)? It would be pretty strange to see the MTA come up with a #0 train.
"This is a Zero train to..."
(Zero train)
Perhaps if they wanted to identify the Times Square Shuttle as an IRT line, they could call it the zero.
Why not just use S?
The R142's LEDs can display an S. The second picture down shows an S on the front. What would the LEDs display if a train was not in service? An X?
03/14/2000
If the R-142/142A wasn't in service they would display a (O) in place of the usual "not in service" sign.
Bill Newkirk
I've seen some R-32 cars use "X" to indicate "Not In Service." That's the problem with having room to fit one character in the display. What if sometime in the future, there is a new line called "X?" The R-32's that would run on it would have to display X because that's the correct route name. However, if the train were to go out of service, what would it display? It can't display X because that would confuse people in to thinking that that was an X train entering the station instead of a train out of service. If the sign had a higher resolution, it might be enough to display "NO PASS." for No Passengers, a term I believe is synonymous with "Not In Service." Or it can display "NIS," the acronym which means Not In Service. I think the 142 is capable of displaying either of these indications, although the text would be smaller than the X.
Since the R-142s have electronic side signs like the ones on the R-44s and R-46s, they can most likely be set to "out of service".
And speaking of #zero, we do have a #0 bus route in Denver. It runs along Broadway, which is the east/west dividing point in Denver's grid system. When RTD came into being, all bus routes were renumbered according to the block number of the street they operate on. It will be interesting to see what sort of identification code is implemented for light rail as new routes open. No code exists at this time, since there is only one line, and that isn't likely to change in July when the Southwest Corridor opens.
Isn't the 42nd Street Shuttle already identified as an IRT line? Besides, there's no #0 on the R62A roll signs and I don't think the MTA will put R142s on the Shuttle.
I've seen plenty of R62s on the "S" line display the #11 sign as seen below, What is this. and if you'll notice it's a Purple sign, could this be the 7 express?
Trevor
Thanks for the upside-down "11" picture! As I said in a previous post (different thread, linked to an old subject "K SIGN???") it would be interesting to see a car with the upside-down "11," and there it is! Now... what about the "V" sign?
To answer your question, let's look at these simple facts.
1. The signs on the R-62 are changed from inside the train.
2. An upside-down S looks identical to a right side-up S.
This being the case, someone changing the sign would see "S," but that is really the upside-down "S." There is an identical "S" further down the roll. This "S" should be facing inside. However, with the "S" that should be facing outside really facing inside, the upside-down "11" appears.
The "11" might be used as the express, but I think a better idea for that sign would be for 7 trains to 111 or WPB, to tell them apart from the 7 trains terminating at Main Street.
[I've seen plenty of R62s on the "S" line...]
Well, let me put it this way: I've seen the same R-62 many times.
They have swaped R62s and R62As at least twice, that's why I said "I've seen plenty of R62s on the "S" line."
Trevor
I remember seeing only one car. I think its number was something like 1915. I think Car 1915 had the upside-down 11. It was on the train on Track 1 of the line. You could see the upside-down 11 at the Times Square station only because Track 1 at Grand Central has a wall where at Times Square there is a platform. A few weeks after first seeing 1915 with the upside-down 11, someone changed the sign on that car to the proper "S." It was still running on Track 1. They recently changed the cars to on the S to R-62A's. Car 1915 was on the line with the "11" a year or so ago. I'm thinking during the spring or summer of 1998. I remember wearing shorts while seeing it.
I happened quite frequently in 1999 too! cuz that's when I took that picture. Actually I've taken about 6 shots of that sign at different times of 1999!
Trevor
"This is the upside-down 11 Flsuhing Express. Next stop, Queensboro Plaza, stand clear of the doors."
Better yet: "Upside down 11 express to Main St. Willets Pt. Shea Stadium, home of the topsy-turvy Mets is the next stop. Stand clear, etc., etc."
Then again, Denver RTD operates a bus route designated "0" - maybe it goes nowhere (actually, it goes from downtown Denver to Littleton).
During peak hours, there's even a 0-Limited - it goes nowhere fast!
There is also a 0X express bus during rush hours.
I'll tell you this much: that Southwest corridor light rail line will get you downtown quickly.
Yes, that is a #0. My dad once called the #5 line the #0 train when I was a kid. He did it as a joke of course. But imagine a #0 train? That would be strange. Of course when I was a kid, a #8 or #9 train sounded weird. So did a Q, V or Z train. But we now have a Q, Z and #9 train and we may have a V and possibly a #8 (that could be the Flushing Express if they only use the red LEDs on the R142s). Still, a #0 train. Probably a lot of jokes would be made about it, like if there were a P train.
At least Zero won't lead to bathroom humor. Not any way I can see now.
Are all of the seats on the Market Frankford M4s really going to be replaced, or is this just a rumor? If so, I better get my camera out.
It's true. It made the front page of the Philadelphia Daily News on Monday.
-Mark
Why are they replacing these seats, I thought these were new trains.
Because they are fabric-covered foam - which is just plain stupid. Vandals love it, though... Not only that, but the bottom cushions are only attached to the stretched canvas underneath with VELCRO - so they are constantly sliding and falling off. It's common to see them unattached and loose, or even on the floor...
Great shades of R-46
03/10/2000
I assume that these seats or inserts will be replaced with fiberglass ones to thwart vandalism?
Somewhat recently when the first train of M-4's arrived, the ERA had a bus trip to 69th St. for photos rides and etc. When I first eyeballed the cushioned seats on the cars I asked to SEPTA rep. "fabric seating, this won't last!". The SEPTA rep. just look befuddled and said "well, that's what they want!"
And now the fabric seats may be going bye-bye. I think some amount of money was wasted here.
Bill Newkirk
The same thing happened on Boston's Red Line with the new Bombardier cars a couple of years ago. The cars are great but the seats were all red fabric. It took about a month for them all to get ruined. They all were covered in coffee stains and who knows what else. Bombardier left them like that for about a year and a half and then finally just gave in and replaced them with plastic ones.
Replace the pigs who call themselves passengers...
Enforce no drinking/eating rules...
Yet another case of the few ruining it for the many...
I agree, but I think those seats would still have become worn out pretty quickly just from use. Fabric seats on busy trains are just not a good idea.
Fabric seats on busy trains are just not a good idea.
Bring back the cane seats. They fought back!!
BRING BACK CANING, That'll show 'em
I find this callous insult to me and my compatriots to be highly disrespectful to me, the Boarsheviks, and all Suidaity in general. I urge you to retract your bigoted and prejudiced statement immediately.
I apologize to my compatriots for posting under a banner which decries our kind, I have changed it.
OK, how about the authorities find ways to keep the 'slobs' off their vehicles? In this grouping I would include the gum-chewers as well as eaters/drinkers. Too often I manage to 'find' chewed gum that's been stuck to bus walls, etc. Is consideration, like chivalry, dead?
Those people (and I use the term loosely) are an insult to the human race A "Jonny Mop, Disinfectant, Toothbrush And MANY GCT TOILETS will teach 'em
Is consideration, like chivalry, dead?
Unfortunately, yes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's a good way to get free gum!!!
From what I saw of the article, the seat frames are more of a problem in that they are failing. The seat cushions are no great shakes either, but I can't imagine why SEPTA didn't go for something similar to what it has on the Ikarus/NABI and new Neoplan articulated buses - foam covers on a metal frame - which are easier to clean than those on the El.
Unfortunately our culture continues to allow folks to eat, drink and put feet on seats. When I see this on buses, the El, etc, I remark to people that they shouldn't be doing it. The blank stares I get tell the entire story of the mindlessness, selfishness, and inconsideration that many of today's transit riders possess. Also, unfortunately, the response of the transit operators will be more and more to go to plastic, with good reason to give up on the comfort of the 'pigs' who call themselves human beings.
It would be very nice to be able to ban this element from transit, but good luck trying. And, if you ask if they keep their own homes, cars, workspaces, etc like this, chances are the answer you will get is 'yes'.
03/11/2000
BobW,
Fiberglass seats have been a mainstay on most transit lines since the late 50's, so the public should be use to them by now. Unless you discount the ergonomic wonders on the R-40's!
There is no reason for any cushioned seating with fabric coverings in this society of ours today. In the long run, the hard seats are easy to clean and last the longest, this means a savings of money. Fabric covered cushion seats mean frequent replacement due to vandalism and the public's eating habits. This means spending more money. But today's transit operators are mindfull of saving money.
HELLO! something's wrong with this picture!
Bill Newkirk
Yes, you are correct. Something is very wrong with this picture. Perhaps the transit agencies need to start cracking down on the very actions that they themselves 'prohibit', if they in fact actually do prohibit them (i.e. eating and drinking). Smoking was a habit that has been effectively eliminated on the vehicles, so why can't eating and drinking? The real problem lies with the operators themselves who feel free to eat and drink as they see fit and do not want to 'hassle' anyone (as an operator told me once, since the 'hasslee' will wait for you to return and get you...). It really IS a jungle out there!
I've noticed that the new seats on SEPTA's Silverliner IV's are
fabric, unlike the old seats, which were vinyl. Even though the
Regional Rail lines usually see less vandalism than the rapid transit
lines, how long will the fabric seats last? Just like on the El,
people often eat and drink on these trains, without the conductor
saying anything. The seats may look nice now, but what will they look
like a few years from now? Why is SEPTA switching to fabric seating?
Look at how long the vinyl seats lasted, on both the M3's and the
commuter trains, and they didn't look bad at all.
03/13/2000
BobW,
That reminds me of a trip I took on an R-46 (F) back in the late 70's. It was summer time and returning from Coney Island, this blue striped R-46 had all sorts of food containers, wrappers, cups and cans etc. all over the floor. This car was the closest thing I've seen to a rolling landfill. So if caught, how can one, two or three cops write summmons for littering when the whole train was engaging in this careless behavior?
Bill Newkirk
What will they be replaced with? Plastic like in NYC? That is just as bad.
I'd like to see some sort of vandal-resistant vinyl-covered foam.
Oh wait - that's exactly what was on the old Almond Joys!
(I don't see why SEPTA felt the need to "improve" on a perfectly good seat design.)
On that grounds, does anyone know if the seating pattern will be the same? And does anyone know if you need a photo permit for SEPTA?
I have been confused with recent posts concerning the LED bulkhead signs on the R-142. Are they capable of green, or just red only? All the great new pictures only reveal red.
Michael B.
Red only. This means riders on the 2, 3, 4, and 5 must now READ the sign instead of relying on the color on the strectches where the lines run parralel to each other (oh, so hard!).
TA will have proper color matches to it,s routes before the new cars are putinto service #1,2,3,9 wil be red #4,5,6 will be green #7 will be purple all programed through a lap top that plugs into a terminal on dest. control pad same thing used for bueses dest. sign routes
OK - here's a question - will they have route #s greater than 9 on the bulkhead signs. i.e. #10, #11, #12, #13, #14 like they do on the R62/R62A signs?
Wayne
They could program anything into them. That's the good thing about digital.
The how would they fit a "10," "11," etc. on the side destination signs? That would be like putting an "AA," "GG," etc. on the signs on the R-44/46 signs.
I don't think so. The side signs won't do double-digit numbers or double letters. I imagine the software links the side signs to the bulkhead signs. I also doubt the software is currently capable of creating the narrow characters that would be necessary to make a two-digit number fit in the bulkhead signs.
Even if they can do green, (which I doubt,) they could never do purple. There is no such thing as a purple LED. You could theoretically use red and blue LEDs together to create purple, but the whole reason the MTA didn't go for full-color displays was that blue LEDs are too expensive.
IF they do green, (which, again, I doubt,) yellow is the only other color they would be capable of. Possibly a pseudo-orange color, and a pseudo-lime-green, too, but that would require more complex circuitry, and the colors probably wouldn't look quite right.
As I mentioned in another post in this thread, I stand corrected. Apparently they can do green. This means they can definitely do red and green. Yellow, too, if the software supports it. Orange and Lime-Green should be possible with custom circuitry.
The internal route LED displays on the R110A cars could do red, green and orange.
How can they do that if there are only red LEDs installed in the cars?
At the least, they should have ordered bipolar LEDs that can do red and green. That would be sufficient for all the IRT mainlines. Red would be close enough for the 7 too. Maybe the cars on the supplemental orders will have this? Full RGB color is probably overkill at this point, since blue is the most expensive and would be the least used.
It was suggested to be that the sign is NOT LED, but a COLOR LCD screen. Not a cheap piece of technology, and most certainly a waste on a subway car.
-Hank
Hmm - that brings up an intersting idea...
The side signs on the R142s are LCD - correct? They are simply monochrome multi-segment with a greenish-yellow filter and a flourescent tube behind them, correct?
So why not make bulkhead signs that are monochrome LCD, with a white background, and different color backlights? Even just a small, bright white lamp with color filters that scroll in front, for any color in the rainbow? It would be bright, cheap, and very effective.
You even use the same technology in the side signs for the route indicator...
Look what happened to the R32s and R38s.
My thoughts exactly. Since LCD displays emit no light, it makes them hard to see, especially in dark tunnels.
A simple solution to this problem is to use the tried and tested technology of manual rollsigns. The advantages of digital signs can be best exploited on the side signs, where the route can be changed with the push of a button, not needing to be manually reset in each car. But bulkhead route signs rarely need to be changed. And if they do, the motorman is right there to do it. LED bulkhead signs are simply not necessary.
I just don't want to see the HUGE bullet in front of the train to disappear. The bullets on the R68/R68A are big but the lighting on some of them are bad. Lighting on the R44/R46 is good. I'd like to see more of those.
I'm not I know what you mean. I've seen flip-dot bulkhead signs on existing stock, but never modern LCD. Look at the LCD side signs on the R142s - they look like the M-4's side signs. They're VERY easy-to-read. Made large enough, and with a bright enough light behind it, it could every bit as easy to read as a rollsign for the bulkhead. Put different color lights behind it, and you've got the perfect solution.
There isn't enough room on the R32s nor R38s for anything big. Maybe it's something that'll change after their 2nd GOH.
The R-38 will never have a second GOH, it would be scrapped first.
And the entire reason for GOH in the first place was to reverse years of damage from deferred maintenance, along with the addition of air conditioning. Neither of these are a problem. If any mods are made to any cars, it will not be on a GOH scale.
They should just use LCD signs small enough to fit in their current sign slots. With the new byellow block letter, it would be so reminiscent of the original green lit signs.
On January's edition of Transit Transit, the signs were set to green. I'm not sure if they were R142 or 142A cars, but they do have the ability to switch from red to green. How it does this, I have no idea. They're either using green and red only displays in certain cars, or they are using LED displays which change color according to the direction of current running through them. Certain kinds of LED's can glow red, yellow or green, depending on which direction the current flows through them.
Really? I stand corrected. In that case, they would be capable of red, green, and, as you said, yellow.
I hope it's not only the cars from one manufacturer that can do this...
Yes. Certain types of LED's emit a red light with a direct current, then yellow if the direct current flows the other way, and they glow geen if the current is alternating (AC). This works out well for IRT cars, as red and green are all that's really necessary assuming all the new cars will be assigned to mainlines.
I don't know if the R142 cars have these special LED displays. However, they do have the capability to display green numbers on the bulkhead signs. That I'm 100% positive about.
I think it's a bit different - yellow is the color you get when you apply AC. Bi/Tri-color LEDs have two elements in them - red and green. Powering both at the same time, or in rapid succession, gives off the yellow color.
Some types have three pins - one common and one for each color element. This way, you can apply power to all pins and get yellow.
Other types have just two pins - with the elements wired in opposite directions. Since diodes only work in one direction, the red element glows if you apply power one way, and green the other way. Applying alternating current (AC) lights one, then the other rapidly - fast enough that the eye can't perceive the red and green separately, and sees yellow instead.
Depending on the exact wavelength and brightness of each element, the "yellow" can vary from greenish-yellow to orange. The color can also be varied on-the-fly using special circuitry from red, to orange, to yellow, to green, and anywhere in-between. That type of circuitry is very rarely used, however.
And full color have 4 pins http://www.ledtronics.com/ds/5&8mm_full_spectrum_RGB_LEDs/80b/80b.htm
(yes, they are out, but they cost. Their biggest use now is for things like scanners)
Was it rubber around the center cab windows or a metal frame? The rubber ones are Bombardiers. The metal ones are Kawasakis. Thoat's how I tell. But I think in the near future they will all be metal, so they're easier to change.
...Certain kinds of LED's can glow red, yellow or green, depending on which direction the current flows through them...
The primary colors are Red, Green and Blue (RGB). Yellow is derived from mixing red and green. Flashing red and green faster than the persistence of vision will trick the brain into seeing yellow.
Now, how exactly do you propose to purple, without a source of blue light?
I don't. Purple could theoretically be done by placing a piece of blue tinted plastic over a red LED display. However, since the R142 is meant to run only on the mainlines, with R62's likely taking over the Flushing line after their R36 cars get scrapped, purple signs aren't even necessary. Green and red LED displays are perfectly adequate.
This problem wouldn't even exist if they simply used the tried and true technology of manual rollsigns instead of those new-fangled LED displays.
I don't. Purple could theoretically be done by placing a piece of blue tinted plastic over a red LED display.
No it can't.
This problem wouldn't even exist if they simply used the tried and true technology of manual rollsigns instead of those new-fangled LED displays.
If it works, it's not sophisticated!!
Yes it can. I tested the LED's on my WebTV box. The red e-mail indicator appeared purple when I placed a piece of blue plastic film in front of it. Unfortunatly, it did dim the display considerably, but it can be done.
BTW, the yellow "connected" LED appeared green with the same blue film.
03/11/2000
With all this talk about colored led's and purple film, one thing is being overlooked. Trying to identify an incoming train and not being able to read the route # because of blinding sunlight shining on the front of the car. Can the LED's overcome that?
Bill Newkirk
Yes, they have been made much brighter now. Just look at the orange road signs (and the orange LED's are being tested on a few buses as well) It is more visible than the rollsigns, because light stands out from all the other objects which are simply refecting light.
The best way to mix colors of light is to ADD more light, not filter it out. If they don't want to add blue LED's (And it's not really worth the extra cost just for the #7), then they could add another light source, like a blacklite, which would mix with the red, or at least give it a purple air. (Now on the rear bus signs, the blacklite shining on the green flipdots give it an almost cyan air when seen from a distance). And just look at what happens when you see red and blue neon tubes together, from a distance, it looks pink or purple. (This is how the mixing of red & green to get yellow works).
Rollsigns cannot be changed instantaneously and simultaneously throughout the train. They tried it on the R-46 and the first generation WMATA cars. It didn't work.
I was referring to rollsigns on the bulkheads, not the sides. Side electronic signs are understandably more useful, as they can be switched all at once. I was referring to the bulkead signs, which would do just fine had they been the standard backlit rollsign, like they have on the R62.
Only red because the new cars are being tested on the #2line this will change once they are used in actual service and depending on assignment I tend to believe the first order will be assigned to the #2 line since this is the line they are being tested on
Anyone have any idea about the West End signal upgrade project? I have seen new structural steel in place for the new wayside signals, and numerous relay houses along the west end, at 45th street, again at 54th street, 63rd street, 19th avenue, stillwell avenue...but no one seems to know when the old 1918 GRS signals will be gone and the new system online
Al
Hello everyone. I have a question. Coming from Connecticut, is there a good spot you know of to park in the city, and hop on a subway? I would love to know if there is a cheap safe garage (or suface parking in a safe area) near a subway station so i could get back and forth to midtown Manhattan. Or, if any of you know of a cheap garage in Manhattan somewhere that would also be great.
Please email me in reply, glasson@ziplink.net
Thanks in advance
Actually, if someone wants to respond, they could do it here too, I just said email so I'm sure to get it. If you could help me out but can't email me, just post it here. Thanks again.
I can't take Metro North or Amtrak because I need to go back to my car at one point during the day.
Coming from Connecticut, is there a good spot you know of to park in the city, and hop on a subway? I would love to know if there is a cheap safe garage (or suface parking in a safe area) near a subway station so i could get back and forth to midtown Manhattan. Or, if any of you know of a cheap garage in Manhattan somewhere that would also be great.
Thanks in advance
Why don't you just park in the city if you're coming on a weekend?
Cheap parking in Manhattan? Surely you jest!! :-)
[Coming from Connecticut, is there a good spot you know of to park in the city, and hop on a subway? I would love to know if there is a cheap safe garage (or suface parking in a safe area) near a subway station so i could get back and forth to midtown Manhattan. Or, if any of you know of a cheap garage in Manhattan somewhere that would also be great.]
There's a reasonably priced garage on the north side of W.95th Street, just off the Westside (Joe DiMaggio) Highway. It's called Stratford Parking or something to that effect. I used it a few times in the past and found the prices pretty good. It's only a short walk from the 1/2/3/9 station at 96th Street.
I'll add the recommendation of the municipal parking garage at Queens Plaza, convienient to the E,F,G,R subway and 7,N Queensboro Plaza station. The roof of this garage makes a great photo platform, too. I'm not sure what their daily rate is, however.
There is also a municipal garage on Jerome Ave in The Bronx 2 Blocks south of the Woodlawn Terminal on the #4 Lexington Ave. express.
There's not many parking garages in The Bronx. I used to do street parking near to the subway station, but I know that can be an adventure, especially on Saturday when you still have to feed the parking meters. If you do decide to park on the street - The Pelham Bay area would be a good choice since it's right off of I-95.
Wayne
Depending on your day and time span, you may beable to take advantage of an early bird special at "Famous Name " HoteL & Tower at 1 Central Park West for about $10.00 /$12.00 . In before 7:00 A.M. Out at 16:00 P.M. ( Name sounds like Grump.)
avid
Went to the Transut Museum on my lunch break:
Caught a slant 40 N at Whitehall. Operated on the middle track. I guess work was done on the Bklyn bound track. Just as we started to move, went BIE. Found out later the conductor pulled the cord.
At the TM, there were about 15 TA personnel. The workers at the gift shop said that they were motorman trainees. Someone in the gift shop asked about the bus festival and found ouut that the TM will not close until at least summer.....
Caught a crowded 4 back to Bowling Green........
1. Is it me or is the interior paint on the slantN different from the slants on the L?????
2. Why is TA personnel training at the TM? Is it true that training tales up to a year?
3TM
Better question, why did the CR pull the chord?
I wonder if that was #4191 with her propensity for getting the brake vapors...
I see no difference between the #4400 series ("L") R40 as opposed to the others. What difference did you notice? Shade of paint? Floor?
Some yellow, some beige?
Wayne
I do not know but 4195-4194 were the last two cars. Yes, the interior paint is different........
3TM
I'm glad you mentioned them. The Education Dept called me up this afternoon to inform me that an agency was interested in using my bus festival 1998 photos for a Honeymooners promo on TV Land. I'm still waiting for a response from a representative down in Virginia. Very interesting.... How did the agency know about the photos which I took? They must've seen them here on the site.
I'm in the money......
-Stef
Stef, be grateful that a profit making entity is about to ask permission. I have a real estate client in Brooklyn who currently owns an apartment building that was home to a very famous poetess 50 years ago. She gave permission to a documentary film maker to take pictures of the front and roof of the building (the apartment has been divided into several in the intervening years). All she got was a very nice thank you note and a video copy of the documentary.
Perhaps with all your new found money you can buy the Mineola and take all of us on a trip.
HA! I wish that were the case, but unfortunately it isn't meant to be. ARGH!!!!!!! I talked to the rep about the photos. I told her I have only two photos of the Gleason Bus in my possession: One front, one back. The rep requested a photo of the front and back of the bus on different positions, looking straight down the bus, and not an angle. What I have: One picture of the front section of the Gleason Bus, showing only the FRONT, and another picture of the back section looking straight towards the front end. It's not enough for them!!! So much for the money.....
-Stef
Buy the Mineola and take us for a trip?
Well maybe if we all got out and pushed. The Mineola is in such a state of disrepair (Stef can fill in the details) that it would take more money than you could earn with taking pictures to get started, much less finish the job.
They had seen them here, in fact, they wrote to me asking about the historic buses and the BusFest. I told them to talk to the Transit Museum if they wanted to use one of those buses. I didn't realize they just wanted photos.
-Dave
It has been a long time since my last visit to Court St. Do they now or ever have they had a PCC trolly or an Mp-54 LIRR passenger car at the museum? These examples also played a roll in NYC Transit.
No, the Transit Museum does not have either of those.
Peace,
Andee
[Do they now or ever have they had a PCC trolly or an Mp-54 LIRR passenger car at the museum?]
That would be NO and NO, however check out Dave's FAQ section to see where some of your favorite cars are reposing, e.g. PCC #1001 is at Shoreline/Branford still operates. She comes out for NY Days, a special event there. Bob Diamond recently acquired a few PCCs from a out-of-town operator for his Brooklyn operation AND the Newark City Subway has a whole bunch in realy fine condition, BUT they're about to be replaced this month so you had better get there quickly.
Mr t__:^)
Come to think of it the Museum Car roster doesn't include the trolleys. I suppose it should. Something to do this weekend...
-Dave
Yes if you think there's enough interest, after all some have traveled quite far from NYC, e.g. Kennebunkport. Not to mention those that have left the good old USA all togather.
This might be a good project for those here that realy love their trolleys to help you with ? George/Dan/etc. do you have your ears on?
Mr t__:^)
Hey, something new to look forward to friend? Would you consider a new Museum Roster devoted to just Streetcars (separate from the Subway Stuff)? I'll contribute if I can....
-Stef
As a redbird lover, and risking my sounding pompous,
might I ask what the creators of the R-142A's
had in mind in coloring the forehead of the
train BLACK???
Picture a dark tunnel and a train with a BLACK forehead..
not to mention minimal teensy weensy headlights to boot..
how on earth are Transit Track Workers and folks like
you and me supposed to be able to SEE the train coming
if it's got a BLACK forehead in a BLACK tunnel??
Times like these I really love them REDBIRDS!!
Well, it's kind of like the R21s and R22s prior to 1971 - they weren't black (they were dirty olive green/charcoal grey) but appeared black due to grime, etc.
Don't some of the R142/R142A have red bonnets and others black?
Wayne
Times like these, I still don't like those Redbirds (proper English).
Um... The redbirds have black foreheads
03/10/2000
I guess track workers don't need to see a silver front as compared to a black front of a car bonnet. The headlights are a good enough clue. Besides with the headlights, it's hard to make out the bonnets color.
Bill Newkirk
In the dark, with headlights coming at you, you can't see much else of anything. Everything looks black, because the humaneye will adjust to the extreme amout of light, and focus on it, rather than what's behind it.
-Hank
The redbirds may have black foreheads, but atleast
it stopped before it grew sideburns (R142a's)
RedbirdFANatic
Are R142/R142A trains tested on weekends? Because I bring my friend to NYC on March 19, if so, I want to bring him to Dyre Avenue line to watch them. If not, we'll do Redbird-watching.
Chaohwa
I just returned yesterday from a business trip to Hong Kong. I spent Monday riding their Mass Transit called MTR. There are now 5 lines, all color coded, but the outmost terminal is the name of the line. 4 Lines are local service and the 5th is the express Airport Line. The Express Airport line runs daily from 530AM to 2.30AM at 8 minute headways. The trains are 6 cars each, 2 headended and 4 trailers. There is NO FAN WINDOWS on any of the MTR Trains. This line opened up in 1998 when the New Airport opened in 1998. The train makes the 23 mile run in 25 minutes, with 2 intermediate stops, for a total of 4 Stations. It shares track with one of the local lines which I will get to in another post. The one way fare is $60.00HK(aprox $7.75USD) A Round Trip is $75.00(aprox $9.00) if you return the same day or $100.00 (aprox $12.85) if you return another day. You could buy tickets from machines. There is also what they call a Octapus Card which sells for $250.00 HK(Aprox $32.00 USD) which gives a person a Rt from Hong Kong or Kowloon Station to Airport, plus $150.00(HK) worth of riding on all MRT Trains, KCR(commuter rail) City Busses, and LRT in New Territories, You can add fare anytime at any station or 7-11. The cars are 70 feet long, carpeted. Airline Type Sitting, with individual video screens in the back of the seat in front of you, which has 7 channels, 1 for arrival flights, 1 for departures. 1-Airport Info, 1-Connections. 1-Local News Programs, 1-BBC and 1 CNBC News, All are subtitled. You turn a Switch, and can get audio in English or Cantoneese. The seats do not recline though. At the 2 Stations in town, you can check your baggage through at a Airline Ticket Counter, get your boarding pass and seat assignment. The counter closes for your flight 2 hours before your flight, and you can check your bags from 1201AM for your flight that day, even though you maynot leave until that night. After you check your bags, they are put in a special compartment in the end cars of the train, and are sent to the airport, where they are taken off and sent to your flight. This line share trackage with a new line that goes to Lantau Island, but shares a different terminal on the outside of the downtown areas. There are different platforms for the Airport Train and the local train. in Hong Kong, they merge just outside of the terminals and use the same trackage to the next stop Kowloon Station, where you can also check in, there they split again on to different tracks, one set for the Airport Exp, and the other for the local, After the station they merge again, for the next station, which are local stations, where again they split, where the Airport trains split off again, and use a by pass. and again merge. There is one more station in New Territories where both trains stop to make connections to the Red Line(Tsung Mung) again splitting up and using different tracks and platforms. You can not check bags at this station. Then again tracks merge, Across the new Set of Bridges, where the trains use the lower level and the Expressway uses the upper. The lower level on the bridge is completely sealed off, and the only way you know that you are on the bridge, is look out on the side of the train and down at the tracks, where you can see the bay below. The MRT is planning for the future for the local train with 2 more stations on the line, the bypass is built and so are the platforms, but these will not open for a while since there is now housing, business or industry in the areas to warrent the opening. The train sets are made by Alwych in the UK. The local trains are the same length, made of Alunimun and stainless steel. The Airport
motive cars are sloped like the French TGV, are painted a blue and silver. Inside there is a Recorded PA System, All announcements are given in Cantoneese(the language of the Local HK People) and English. There are line maps above the doors of all lines. The newer cars built since 1998 which run on 3 of the 4 local lines, the stations light up on the map as you come to each one, and a light tells you which door to use. The signs by the light tells you. When the train leaves a station, a light goes out on the map telling you you passed that station. When a train comes to a transfer point, the map of the connecting line lights up to show you the stations. The trains have a crew of one, only the Airport line is Automated. Each Cab Control Car is full width, with its own private door on the local lines. The operator once the doors are open, waits, then closes the door, steps out onto the platform, to make sure nobody is caught, goes back inside the cab, and starts the train. The Cab Controls are on the left side. Seating on the 4 Mainline trains are longitude silver unpadded sets, each car has 5 doors on each side. I understand the system on a business day handles up to 2.5-2.8 milion people. During Rush Hours headway on the trains are 90 seconds, mid day 4-5 minutes, evenings 6-7 Trains run from 5AM-1.00AM 7 Days a week. This is for the 3 oldewr lines. The headway on the New Lantau line is 2 minutes Rush Hrs, 6-8 minutes other times. I guess that is enough for tonight, I will be glad to answer anyquestions.
(90 second headways, five lines more 2.5 million per day, airport express covers 25 miles in 23 minutes)
Shows the advantage of an entirely new system. I wonder if any part of the NYC system could approach that level of performance. In any event, everyone is building but NYC.
correction 23 miles in 25 minutes with 2 stops
Many years ago, about ten , perhaps more, there was a spill or derailment at the Sunnyside Yard. It might have been a derailed propane car. My point is, this incident put a stop the everrrrrrthinng. The LIRR,the #7,G,E,F and N or R whichever it was at the time. I do beleive the 59th St Bridge was closed as well. This was done in the interest of public safety, and to allow the various segments of the emergency agency,s to have eaiser access to the location of the incident.
The connection from 2nd Ave to the Willy B. was not activated as an alternate from midtown to Queens and the rest of L.I.
Does the MTA have a unit that plans or even thinks of Major "What Ifs"
Could that connection be brougt to Service on a short notice or would their pants be still down around their ankles?
Hind sight is only good if you can use it.
avid
That connection is still active, IIRC. However, it's from Essex to Bway/Lafayette, not 2nd Ave. It was used extensively during the 1986-88 Manny B AB track closure because the Grand St shuttle was using R27 cars based from the ENY yard.
who do they think they are at PATH ?? is thier stuck up short lousy little system too precious for photography
and vidieophotography at all ????
how did any of you get away without being harrassed almost to the point of arrest just because you wanted to take
a picture of thier lousy little trains ???
I didnt have that problem two weeks ago when I re -taped
the number #5 with a nice motorman named mr allen !!!
he opened up to me all the way and talked me to death
on how he likes to operate REDBIRDS over the r 62 !!!!!!!
then i shot the L and J trains
NO PROBLEM IN NEW YORK AT ALL !!!!!
the motorman on the L train CLEANED THE RAILFAN WINDOW !!
how about that you crummy folks there at PATH ?????
( BY THE WAY A CONDUCTOR AT PATH AGREED WITH ME )
so my new #5 and L and J tape is ready for any of you who
want it asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
Welcome back, Sorry you could not make it on Saturday, we had a good time on the Canarsie line. By the way, until recently they used to frown on photography in the Subway too! Pressure made them stop. Do not know whatm PATH'S problem is.
Peace,
Andee
PATH indeed prohibits photography along their property. In order to take pictures in PATH, you have to apply for a permit to take pictures.
The phone numbers concerning application for permit are:
201-216-6247
201-216-6266 (Fax)
You have to tell them when to take pictures or videos.
Chaohwa
Ooh, boy - I guess that makes ME a criminal, doesn't it? I have about 40 PATH photos, various stations and trains. I never had a problem before, but I will bear this caution in mind come Monday - I had planned to take pictures in Hoboken Station.
Wayne
I got warned by a Harrison Station clerk around two years ago. I did take photos at Harrison two times before that happened. It is a great place to shoot all Amtrak, NJ Transit, and PATH trains.
Chaohwa
mr chaowha they at PATH are too nasty for me !!! what is so great about thier crummy little system ??
thier attitude is the worst since the LOS ANGELES METRO almost arested me for using a tripod !!
NEW YORK didnt do that to me !!!!!!! MAYBE PATH TRAINS ARE GOLD PLATED !!!
to me they are too cheap - just a little junk system !!
I took pictures at a PATH station not because of PATH itself, but because of Amtrak, and NJ Transit trains.
The non-photography policy is over there. I respect that. It is their policy. I can understand your frustration. I've been there before.
From a rider's point of view, PATH is very convenient to me. As for photography, grab a phone and apply for a permit. They will respect that.
Chaohwa
did they give you any problem after they gave you a permit if they did ??? and did they ????
THEN DID YOU HAVE TO SHOW IT TO EVERY SINGLE LITTLE PATH EMPLOYEE ???
and all of the rest of the litle nuts and idiots there ?????? ( AT PATH ) ?? etc.......
then after that did the still HARRASS you and or did they LEAVE YOU ALONE ??????
I did apply once and got permitted to take pictures at Harrison. I told them when I would come and where to take pictures. I did not get a permit, but an oral permission.
When I did take pictures, I was not bothered. Everything went well except cloudy skies.
As long as you make an appointment with PATH about photography, after you and PATH reach an agreement, they will indeed leave you alone.
Chaohwa
thank you sir !! sorry about the bad weather !! DOES THIS AGREEMENT ALSO INCLUDES VIDIEOS ??
i can just see myself having to show PAPERS TO EVERY SNITCH AND EVERY PATH EMPLOYEE !!!
its like taking pictures at a MILITARY INSTALLATION OR GOVERNMENT INSTUTITION !!!
thank you again Chaohwa !!!!!!!
03/11/2000
Sallamallah,
BTW-welcome back!
Whether it's Path, NYCTA, WMATA etc, all transit operators are very aware of photographers using tripods. Whether you're using a still, video or even Super 8, all you need is a passenger (customer) tripping over one of your tripod legs and it's lawsuit time. Don't be offended, just be aware they are looking out for their best interest and not to harass photographers.
Bill Newkirk
PATH is a government instution and management stupidity like harassing salaamallah keeps PATH in need of more and more of our tax dollars every day.
Yes, it does include videotaping.
Chaohwa
I have found path to be responsive to photo requests. The reason they ask for advance notice is to let their people know. Now my opinion as received from PATH: if you stick to public areas and shoot responsibly (no flash) they usually wont say anything.
Wayne(and others)- Keep your blood pressure down!
I did some checking- He used a tripod rather than hand-held cameras. Tripods require a permit. Hand held still shots are OK!!
Wayne- I did send PATH an e-mail advising of your plans to shoot tomorrow using a hand-held camera.
Where exactly were you trying to take pix? From the train or on a platform?
I think Salaam means both. PATH does not allow photography unless you apply for a permit.
Chaohwa
As an FRA railraod the PATH has someone to answer to (unlike the TA) and so they don't want people to document them breaking the rules. However, they should also realize that most railfans are not out to get the RR in trouble and that by not letting me take pics all they are really doing is getting me mad. And that gives me a reason to take a hidden camera and catch them doing something illegal and then report them to the FRA, solely out of spite. After they may want to re-think their policy if complaints to the FRA go UP with a photo ban in effect..
If they are so concerned then maybe they should issue blindfolds to all riders
Peace,
Andee
Did you ever think that security might be a concern here?
The FBI investigation into the WTC bombing in 1993 revealed that the parties responsible had planned to place explosive devices at other PA facilities as well. Among the evidence recovered were videotapes of the Holland Tunnel;the soundtrack on these tapes has people discussing the best location to place a device in order to achieve the most destructive effect. Other reports indicated that PATH may also have been a target. Knowing this,I can well understand their being concerned about unauthorized photography.
My contacts at both FRA and PATH would be VERY interested in hearing about your allegations of FRA rule violations. Please feel free to E Mail me with specifics. I'll pass them along for investigation.
Better yet,why don't you contact the FRA directly?
i am just a tourist they can even review my vidieo before they OK it !! but PATH was too CHEAP
and crummy and STUCK UP i almost HATE THEM !!
A well thought out and lucid response if I ever saw one.
Every system in the country has a policy on videotaping and/or photography on their property. If you want to tape on their property you are required to observe to those policies. What leads YOU to believe that you're exempt?????!!!!?????
exmpt ??? didnt have that problem ( taking pictures ) IN NEW YORK !!!!!!!!!!
and even with a tripod and VIDIEO CAMERA !!!
Picture in your minds eye.
the daily update of the police blotter P. A. Police HQ
Two suspects caught at JFK taking Vidios of aledge couple from aledge Kansas going to aledge London for aledged wedding anniversary.
Suspects even spoke with midwestern accent and acted suprised when apprehended. Male suspect had the nerve to claim he was a veteran and had RIGHTS. The old rights dodge.
Same M. O. used by late middle aged black couple and two Nuns from
New Orleans.
They never give up ! We must be ever alert,
By the way the CIA will be testing gas dispersal Again , with out informing the public.
Lets issue upon request ,permits to ligit visitors.
avid
Point taken. Any major incident such as the WTC bombing will naturally be followed by a period of official paranoia with some incidents of overreaction,as you have described.
Permits are given to legit visitors. Chao-Hwa-Chen posted the phone number several days ago.
Unfortunately,our friend seems to think that transit system photo permit requirements don't apply to him. When told that they do,he evidently reacts in a manner similar to that in which he posts.
Bottom line: Almost all systems have photo permit requirements. Before visiting a system,find out their policies and abide by them. Doing so will help avoid hassles for the photographer as well as helping to impress upon system managements that not all railfan photographers are irresponsible jerks.
About a week ago on the PATH at WTC in the late PM there was a fellow who basically took over the front of the car & set up a 'video studio' by the engineer's cab. The train had many standees. When the crew returned to the train they politely informed the gentleman that he could not take videos. The fellow complied & that was that. I'm sure if the fellow was a bit more descrete or simply obtained the proper permission he could have recorded to his hearts delight. You might say the crew was harsh but their are a few realities here. First, with the company policy about photography, all that was needed was for a passenger to complain & the crew would have been in deep doo-doo. You say who would complain? Path has there version of spies aka the passenger advisory committee who would just love to pounce on this. Second, if someone tripped on the equipment & got hurt again the crew would be in for it!
To the fellow who suggested taking clandestine photos of FRA violations on Path. I don't know why you would even say something like that. The Path workers are probably the friendliest bunch you'll ever run in to. Always keep in mind what is a hobby for us is a livelyhood for them. Not only does the company pay the fines but also the worker. Would you like someone comming in to your place of employment taking pictures of you trying to catch you doing something wrong? I don't think so!
Thank you.
that nught have been me you say !!! SONE OF THE PATH EMPLOYEES ARE ( okay )...............
SONE OF THE PATH EMPLOYEES ARE ( okay )...............
that might have been me you saw with a sony trv66 at the front window i was on PATH the last week or so !!
was this vidieocamera operator wearing a backpack ??? and a tripod ??? right ???
Most of the Path workers are OK. You must appreciate the current situation. Since the new '1984' management came in a few years ago (less service is more, less is better, etc) the employee morale has deteriorated. The crews are in constant fear of company spies (paid & non-paid). These people don't hesitate to pick up a phone & blow a worker in for the slightest real & imaginary offence! Knowing this, a little discretion & courtesy will go a long way. For it's size, Path is one of the more interesting operations around & worth a visit.
One other thing. If a worker shows you some extra courtesy, please don't make a big annoncement. The motorman named who talked to you all the way could end up with time off (no pay) for showing some extra kindness (at least 2 rules vilations). You never know who is watching this board.
To the fellow who wanted to take clandestine photos of supposed FRA rules violations. How would you like someone following you around at work trying to catch you doing something wrong? I don't think you would like it to much.
Remember, courtesy, discretion & responsibility goes a long way.
About a week ago on the PATH at WTC in the late PM there was a fellow who basically took over the front of the car & set up a 'video studio' by the engineer's cab. The train had many standees. When the crew returned to the train they politely informed the gentleman that he could not take videos. The fellow complied & that was that. I'm sure if the fellow was a bit more descrete or simply obtained the proper permission he could have recorded to his hearts delight. You might say the crew was harsh but their are a few realities here. First, with the company policy about photography, all that was needed was for a passenger to complain & the crew would have been in deep doo-doo. You say who would complain? Path has there version of spies aka the passenger advisory committee who would just love to pounce on this. Second, if someone tripped on the equipment & got hurt again the crew would be in for it!
To the fellow who suggested taking clandestine photos of FRA violations on Path. I don't know why you would even say something like that. The Path workers are probably the friendliest bunch you'll ever run in to. Always keep in mind what is a hobby for us is a livelyhood for them. Not only does the company pay the fines but also the worker. Would you like someone comming in to your place of employment taking pictures of you trying to catch you doing something wrong? I don't think so!
Thank you.
that nught have been me you say !!! SONE OF THE PATH EMPLOYEES ARE ( okay )...............
SONE OF THE PATH EMPLOYEES ARE ( okay )...............
that might have been me you saw with a sony trv66 at the front window i was on PATH the last week or so !!
was this vidieocamera operator wearing a backpack ??? and a tripod ??? right ???
Most of the Path workers are OK. You must appreciate the current situation. Since the new '1984' management came in a few years ago (less service is more, less is better, etc) the employee morale has deteriorated. The crews are in constant fear of company spies (paid & non-paid). These people don't hesitate to pick up a phone & blow a worker in for the slightest real & imaginary offence! Knowing this, a little discretion & courtesy will go a long way. For it's size, Path is one of the more interesting operations around & worth a visit.
One other thing. If a worker shows you some extra courtesy, please don't make a big annoncement. The motorman named who talked to you all the way could end up with time off (no pay) for showing some extra kindness (at least 2 rules vilations). You never know who is watching this board.
To the fellow who wanted to take clandestine photos of supposed FRA rules violations. How would you like someone following you around at work trying to catch you doing something wrong? I don't think you would like it to much.
Remember, courtesy, discretion & responsibility goes a long way.
But they DO have railfan windows!!!
BODABING!!!!!!!
?????? !!!!!!!
Sounds like a rim shot to me.
NO !!! AIR BALL ( the person who shot at me )
That is true. Two railfan windows per end.
Chaohwa
I hope you realize that in your attempt to commend this T/O for helping you out that you've just named him publicly,told everyone where he works,and have publicly admitted to several rule violations on his part. Your statements,if read by certain people,could possibly lead to some serious time off for this person.
Is this any way to thank someone who went out of their way to assist you??????!!!!!?????
in my continuing efforts to lower the circulation of
the daily news, i noticed a very interesting article
on the star ceiling in grand central station--- the
author of the article, susan jacoby, had an uncle
who was an astronomer who was consulted on the
positioning of the stars--- the article is very
personal as the author feels a personal connection
to the ceiling--- she also mentions the weekly free
tour of the station given every wednesday at 12:30
sponsored by the municipal arts society---
i post these articles as a public service to those
people who would never be caught buying the paper
of the limousine liberals
href="http://www.nytimes.com/00/03/10/news/arts/stat
ion-ceiling.html">grand central star ceiling
grand central star ceiling
grand central star ceiling
Nice article--Thanks
A friend claims that last night, while waiting on a local platform for the West Side IRT, he saw a four car "10" train pass by on the express track, headed downtown. Is there such a thing as a "10" train?
No, but what he saw might have been the R-142 being tested. But that would've been 5 cars.
Peace,
Andee
No, but what he saw might have been the R-142 being tested. But that would've been 5 cars.
Did he say if the signs were digital? If they were it was the R-142
Peace,
Andee
The R-142 digital sign doesn't support 2-digit route numbers. Probably it was a set of R-62(a)s with some or all of the roll signs set to "10", which appears in a green diamond and was intended to be a possible redesignation of the #5 thru express.
I was led to believe that the R-142 was capable of displays above 9 if I am wrong I stand corrected.
Peace,
Andee
10 also appears as a round bullet; I've seen this between cars, mostly on the #6 line.
Wayne
#10 is supposed to be extra service on the #6 line like they have on the #1-9 They might be waiting for R142s to be put into service before they start the new line.
That's 8
Pigs is right - the #8 represents the Diamond 6, the #11 represents the Diamond 7 and the #10 represents the Diamond 5.
Wayne
Yes, it runs from Metropolitian Ave. to Chambers/Centre St.
Ok, I'm being a wiseguy.
Well, today's M WAS known as the #10 prior to the opening of the Chrystie St. connection, and R-16s assigned there were signed up as such. The multis also displayed that number when they ran there, if their sign mechanisms were functioning properly.
Well, today's M WAS known as the #10 prior to the opening of the Chrystie St. connection, and R-16s assigned there were signed up as such. The multis also displayed that number when they ran there, if their sign mechanisms were functioning properly.
I still remember the some multis on the Myrtle-Chambers run in their final days in 1960 showing #13 - probably stuck there since they had been transferred from the 14th St - Fulton St line in 1956.
-- Ed Sachs
The R62 cars have a "10" sign on their roll signs. It might have been possible if they were R62A cars. However,
1. the "10" sign on those cars is green (Lexington Av.-IRT East Side line).
2. there is no IRT "10" train in service.
If the signs said "10," the sign was probably stuck in that position, or something else that might put the sign in that position.
There is no No.10 but there is a No.10 sign on the R62'S
The R-62A roll signs include the following:
Red: 1, 9, 2, 3, 13
Green: 4, 4-diamond, 5, 5-diamond, 6, 6-diamond, 8, 10, 12
Purple: 7, 7-diamond, 11
Grey: S
Is that the order they appear in?
If not, what is the correct order?
Where do the Public Relations signs (Not In Service, etc.) appear on the sign, and what are they?
Do any of those that don't have diamonds really do have diamonds? If so, what are they?
Please include information about the front and side signs, with side signs as viewed from inside the train. Thanks in advance!
Is there such a thing as a "10" train?
Does ANY line rate a 10?
I give the Q a 9.5. Gotta love those swift shovel-nosed R40's.
I deduct points for the awful seats. And more than just half a point.
So don't sit! Do what WE do - stand and enjoy the expansive view from the front window.
The "Q" rates a 9 in my book. The "A" is next at an 8, the "L" gets a 7 and so does the #7, #5 and #2.
Wayne
I'm not going to stand up in the morning! Nor will I stand up while reading (unless forced)! I have said this before, I do not find the front view to be very interesting, the side view is better, except in a tunnel, but then the front view is even WORSE and not at all worth it. And when I'm on the Q, I've seen the side view many times, it just doesn't matter anymore.
Samw way I feel about the 3. I now ride the bak of the train..........
3TM
Yes, if Bo Derek happens to be on it.
Rim shot!!!
When the R-10s (speaking of 10) dominated the A line, that was a "10" in my book.
Personally, I kinda like the "G". It doesn't go into Manhattan, which is always a good idea, and it's never crowded. Plus, there's that oh-so easy transfer to the M at Broadway/Metropolitan!
Don't you mean "L?"
I like the G, too. It is a less crowded way to get from my Grandma's house in Brooklyn (transfer @ Smith-9) to Woodhaven Boulevard. You don't have to go through Manhattan, and until you get to Roosevelt, relatively uncrowded.
The people who designed the current exhibit at the Transit Museum store at Grand Central deserve compliments. It is a interesting, varied exhibit. Two displays of slugs (transit tokens; bridge tokens) include same-size tokens from other systems and foreign coins. The subway exhibits are labeled well. The VCR display was showing an excellent Third Avenue video that included even an East Side Omnibus scene with a red boxy vehicle (the kind that I think had nickel turnstiles).
Yes, I have been there myself it is an excellent display. A credit to the museum staff indeed. They should keep up the good work.
Peace,
Andee
One thing the Transit Museum at GCT needs is to have it's hours POSTED on the door. All they have is a drugstore sign that says CLOSED. No information on when the store will reopen or business hours listed anywhere. Big Ooops, IMHO. (The exhibits looked good, at least what I could see through the window!)
Is the Walking tour still on? People haven't been talking about it, Like they were for the Polo Shuttle Tour.
I can't explain why Mark hasn't posted more about it, but he has sent out e-mails. It is still on for Sunday at 10:30. There were a few postings concerning the details yesterday.
Better have an eye on the weather, guys. Forecast is for rain overnight Saturday (heavy at times) and showers into Sunday AM with temperatures 45-50 degrees with wind. You may run into a mud bath out there.
Wayne
I haven't seen this posted before ... sorry if I am asking something that has already been answered.
The two (2) center/express tracks on the F/G line in Brooklyn (between the GAP track just north of 4th Avenue tower) to somewhere near Bergen Street have been closed (and rusting) since the fall of 1999. It seems a bit long for just a routing track work or signalling project.
The tracks through Carroll Street station are getting harder to see, with a rather deep accumulation of trash on the trackway.
Are there plans to abandon this trackage, or is it just taking an abnormal amount of time to complete this work? While not in regularly scheduled service for many years, these tracks were always utilized regularly for re-routes and non-revenue moves, and are useful when delays impacted the free flow of traffic on the local tracks.
Thanks .....
BigJohn
I was stuck behind a creeping work train last night 0n that strech of line, asking the same question. I think all of the signals are fine, it's a question of completing the work at the Bergen St. tower...
There are plans to re-activate express service north of Church after the 63rd. St connector opens and enough cars exist in the fleet to support it. These tracks aren't being abandoned.
They are permanently set in that position due to a fire at the tower. The tower was wired back to bare bones. Only the switches north of Bergen Street on the local tracks and the switches at 4th Avenue have been wired back in.
The Taking of Pelham 1-2-3 DVD is out... I just got mine this morning from Amazon. If you're interested, buy your copy from Amazon for $19.99 using this link and help support this site.
By the way, I now have a used copy of the VHS version up for grabs... anyone want to trade for it? It's only been watched a couple times.
-Dave
Only been watched a COUPLE of times???? I wore mine out
I'll trade.
What are you asking for?
Is there any extra footage or interviews or trailers or making-of clips, or is it the same as the VHS version?
I'll post a complete report when I get a chance to view it...
Well, the Pelham 123 DVD has nothing special. It's widescreen, mono (audio in English, French, Spanish). Includes the theatrical trailer. No other special goodies. The booklet included has a few mistakes (and includes the mistake from the movie that IRT cars are 72 feet long).
-Dave
I'd like to know who put that line in the screenplay.
I was checking the website David pointed out to and found another version of the movie. It looks like a remake of the original but made for TV in 1998. It sounds like the movie is not worth watching. Has anybody seen this version?
It's NOT worth watching.
-Hank
The remake should never have been made, IMHO. Let's just leave it at that.
Heard about it but have not seen any preveiws. Was it that bad?
Two words: it sucked. The actors were clearly going through the motions. Very wooden, and worst of all, it was filmed in Toronto on the Blythe-Danforth (sp) line.
It's BLOOR-Danforth.
When I first posted to SubTalk, there were so many Torontans that they were probably half of the participants!
I stand corrected. I looked at a map of Toronto a bit later and realized my mistake.
The remake was awful in many ways.
I wrote a scathing review of this movie right after it came out.
I'll try to mention as much as I can. Sorry if this contains spoilers. But I'm not sure if anyone would even CARE to see this turkey.
First of all, the movie is not filmed in NY as was already mentioned. Yes, the streets of Toronto can pass for NY, but then again so can the streets of any large city if you put an NYPD cop car on it and show the street for only half a minute.
Second, the subway OBVIOUSLY is not a NYC subway car. Why even bother saying it was NYC? Why not remake the movie as though it actually takes place in Toronto? So many liberties have been taken with the script already why not change location also? It would be less of an insult to our collective intelligence if this had been done. And the conductor's voice that can be heard saying "59th Street - Shop till you drop". Who on the NYCTA says that? What makes 59th Street so special? Why not 14th? Why not 34th? Guess the producers didn't realize that Alexanders left the area like 20 (ok I'm exaggerating) years ago. The only major store to shop till you drop left there is Bloomingdales.
The producer, director, and cast of the movie looked like they were out to attend to some politically correct agenda. One of the hijackers is now a girl? A girl who dresses like she's some Generation X'er who is going out dancing after she finishes doing this "little train stealing thingy". The conductor is now also a girl who tries to "relate" to the girl hijacker by spouting off some mumbo jumbo about being a single mom that has NOTHING to do with the crime that is being committed. And while we're on the subject, I seriously doubt ANY conductor or ANYONE IN THEIR RIGHT HEAD for that matter would wise off to 4 psychos carrying automatic weapons like that conductor did throughout the entire movie. The hero cop who jumps off the train is also now a woman. I guess that particular revision was a backlash for the sexist remark made in the original version when the cops back at the NYPD HQ were SURE that the cop on the stolen train couldn't possibly be a WOMAN.
In observation of trying to show how our modern society may have "evolved" since 1974, the children on the subway are no longer with a parent. We are now left with the concept of the "latch key" children being all alone on a subway. AND to top it off, the strangers in the subway just simply take them under their wing as their "foster" children and try to protect them. This includes the hijackers themselves - so much for being the "bad" element. How convenient.
Now, I'll be the first to admit that there were some parts in the first version that would be considered "racy" and "un-pc" by today's ultra-sensitive society. But if the creators of this version didn't try so hard to create a version that is in the opposite extreme, they might have ended up with a decent movie.
Putting aside all these revisions, the film was full of holes. The logistics of how the train radio works is totally wrong. By pulling out the cord for the mike you're breaking the connection?? And it was never explained why the hijackers started to move before the signals were all green. All Mr Blue says is "slight change of plans". Many times throughout the movie, two cars, not just one, can be seen in the tunnel. I figure that Toronto has "married" cars like we do. Most importantly, why aren't the hijackers disguised? Were people's memories better in 1974 than they are in 1998 (when the film came out)? In 1974, the crooks disguise themselves as 4 geeky old looking men complete with reversible coats, hats, and fake moustaches. In 1998, everyone is dressed in black like they are part of some theater group. Do they not think that they may be spotted on the street in the future by one of the people on the train?
And finally as it has been mentioned before, the acting by everyone was TERRRIBLE. There was no chemistry between anyone. In the original, even the simplest facial expression by anyone on the cast represented the average New Yorker. It's a shame, considering the talent on the cast, which included Lorraine Bracco from the Sopranos, Edward James Olmos, and Vince D'Onofrio (Pvt Pyle from Full Metal Jacket).
In short, with any luck, this remake will never ever be rebroadcast again. Just my two cents. Thanks.
Agreed on all points.
I have found Hollywoods depiction of the NYC Subway, from the most inane sitcom to the most "serious" movie to be always grating. They are always showing you an exterior of, say, an IRT number 4 to establish a subway scene, and then building a set of the subway in which to play the ensuing scene with roll signs saying "9 (Train), Coney Island, 258th Street" or something equally as unlikely. Or, they make mention of, say, "The number 6 every day to Fulton Street," as they did in the recent movie, "Boiler Room." Of course, the number 6 rarely stops at Fulton Street. Are they trying to make a joke, or are they just too lazy to research?
Granted, most of the country doesn't give a rats behind, cause they don't live in New York, but for the sake of truth, you would think they'd make an effort!
I agree.
Many times Hollywood just randomly selects a subway line and makes up a station.
This is especially true with movies made recently in the past 10 or so years. Especially true when New York was shunned from being used as a filming location in the early 90's.
They will pick the name of a station that doesn't exist and just use a station like the Grand Central shuttle as the backdrop.
I'm sure people in another state or city won't know or care that there is no such thing as a 15th Street Station. But if you have any "real" New Yorkers in the audience, someone WILL blurt out: "HEY there is NO 15th Street Station!!". There is suspension of reality when you go to the movies, but not when you see a Redbird #1 arriving at a 15th Street Station that looks A LOT like Grand Central.
I can't WAIT to see how this upcoming Law And Order episode comes out, with no fewer than SIX different station decals plastered to the wall at Hoyt-Schermerhorn (the tiled pillar side). What station are we at, anyway?
Hoyt-Franklin-Wall-Fulton-Delancey-Spring... change for the ACEHSXYZ train to Aqueduct-Zerega Avenue...
Wayne
change for the ACEHSXYZ train to Aqueduct-Zerega Avenue...
Reminds me of a road I passed on I-15 in southern California yesterday - Zzyzx Road.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have pictures of the "Franklin" and "Wall St." signs.
"Hoyt" I believe was there since the beginning
"Fulton" "Delancey" "Spring"...I have yet to see those. Are they on the wall side of Track A1 (Southbound local)? If so, what part of the wall?
IMHO, most film producers figure the average moviegoer won't know the difference or won't care if a subway sequence isn't totally accurate. Those of us who are hardcore subway buffs know otherwise.
I take it you didn't care too much for the movie.
I really didn't. I always wondered what a new version of the movie would be like. Having an R-62A as the train that is now comandeered at the 28th Street Station. The 1974 version had its flaws - it too sawyed a little from the novel. But it is a classic - known for its 70s New York style and mentality. This is a remake that ended up staining the original. If a remake is to be made, at least stick closer to the original or at least to the John Godey novel itself.
The plot holes as I mentioned were a disgrace, but the fact that they tried to pass Toronto off as New York is ridiculous. Just slapping a couple of MTA stickers on a subway car does not make a NYC Subway Car. Putting a Mercedes emblem on a Yugo does not turn it into a Mercedes. The car didn't even carry a #6! At that point they could have stayed closer to NY and used the Philadelphia or Boston subway.
Since they practically changed everything else in the story why not change the location too while you're at it? It would have been more believable. Everyone who cared to see the movie came in the following day and said the same thing - "That was NOT filmed in New York, was it? What a joke!" And this is coming from people who don't take a subway car and are not railfans.
Although the movie had plenty of nice shots of the TTC's H-1 class (H-6 for the exterior)subway cars (which BTW, do operate in married pairs), I do agree the re-make was total garbage.
There are many scenes where the train is signed 'KENNEDY' (the end terminus of the Bloor Danforth (Green) subway line.
If you're wondering most of the movie was shot in the TTC's Abandoned Lower Bay station. I only enjoyed the movie a little, mainly because of the Toronto H-1 subway cars, which are now retired and scrapped.
http://transit.reliantwebhosting.com
http://surf.to/tts
(more of Toronto Transit Commission)
Oh ok.
I did hear that the car(s) that they used to film the movie went to scrap the very last day that filming wrapped up. In fact, they went to scrap still wearing the NYCTA decals.
I think Toronto was also used for the subway scene in the 1993 remake of Car 54 Where are You? Is that right?
I saw unit #5482 being used prominently in that movie (which I gave five Toilet Bowls and a plunger).
What year were those cars? They looked like early-60s (around 1960-1962) vintage.
Wayne
Actually, Ryder does say, "A slight change of plan" in the novel and doesn't elaborate.
As bad as the remake is, it does recreate the getaway rigging of the car as described in the novel, with Longman busting out the cab window in order to join the two pieces of pipe together. IIRC, the subway cars used in the remake had been retired and were to be scrapped anyway, so nobody cared if a window had to be broken out. I'm sure the TA wasn't too thrilled with the idea of having a cab window busted out on an R-22 back in 1974. (That's probably why the museum R-1/9s were used in Nighthawks. That was the only way Sylvester Stallone was going to kick out a storm door window.)
The total lack of chemistry was one of many flaws in the remake.
Mr. Bx Flyer Guy:
EXTREMELY well said. I couldn't agree with you more. I watched the remake (and taped it) simply for railfan appeal (and because I'm something of a fan of John Godey's book, I have both the hard and softcover versions. BTW, John Godey was a "nom de plume").
But it was simply about the worst movie I'd seen in years, it had no redeeming qualities. It was neither accurate nor entertaining. The kindler, gentler version of hijacking a subway train simply didn't work for me.
"Speed", conversely, was about as bogus as a movie could get (transit-trivia wise) but it was entertaining. The roof fight on top of the LAMTA train was pricelessly corny, but it worked for the audience!
Mr Misek:
Thank you for you comments.
It's interesting that you mention SPEED. If you'll notice, the motorman that Dennis Hopper kills onboard the train is the same actor who plays Mr Green the motorman-turned-hijacker in Pelham 1-2-3.
I just thought it was strange for the same guy to play a train motorman in two different movies. And both trains end up on a wild ride. The train in LA does not seem to have a deadman feature, which the NYC train did. I can't confirm if this is actually the case in real life.
Do LA trains have this feature, anyone? It is hard to tell in the movie because it appears that the bullets from the gun seem to short out the train's braking mechanism and sends it on a runaway course.
Thanks.
i will trade any of my railfan vidieos for it !!
Ok, I'm going away for Spring Break for 2 weeks. However please note that I will continue to work on the subtalk awards. There is also a new policy for Nominations submission, Please Post your Nominations on the OFF SUBTALK LIST. This will do 3 things. 1) Add traffic to the list. 2) Promt debate over nominations and 3) Let me recieve the e-mails in digest form. Thanks for your help. Here again are the categories:
Best Thread
Best Subtalker in a leading role
Best Subtalker in a supporting role
Best Subtalker in a technical or advisory role
Best Website Host
Funniest Subtalker
Best Flamer
Best Impersonation of a Subtalker
Worst Transit Official
Worst Elected Official (transit wise)
Subway Criminal of the Year
Best Subway Supporter
Best Subtalker in the field
Best Animated Gif.
Most creative handle
Most changed handle
Best contributed article
Best contributed photos
Most prolific poster
Most prolific debator
Worst speller
Life time award ... Subtalker since day one & still active
Funniest Single Post
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Technical Awards
Best Transit System
Best Forigen Transit System
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Best Subway Car (NYC)
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Best Commuter Railroad
Best Interlocking Tower
Best Yard
Best New Transit Project (completed)
Worst Subway Car
Greatest Transit Boondoggle (pending or completed)
See you all in 2 weeks.
Enjoy your vacation
Yesterday I was on a Manhattan-bound 7 train (5:52 pm out of 46-Bliss). The strange thing way I saw PATH maps and timetables on the floors, on the seats, and I even saw people looking at the stuff. I just think that it is a little strange to see PATH stuff on the 7. I guess someone took a lot of PATH stuff and took it onto that 7 train and just spread it over three or four cars (in the back of this train). Strange... isn't it?
You are now entering the twilight zone....dododododo
Only if the conductor gets on the PA coming into Times Square and says "7 train to the Meadowlands. Port Authority next, last stop in Manhattan."
There's a sign post up ahead it says "7, Times Square, Hoboken Terminal, Newark Penn Station.
all the path stuff is easily explained--- there was obviously a subway preacher trying to lead people onto the right path---
HAHAHAHAHA
Beginning last Saturday the "F" Market line in San Francisco began regular revenue service between 17th/Castro Streets and the Fisherman's Wharf area via the Northern Embarcadero route. I will be "test riding" on Sunday and I promise a full report come Monday.
The Northern Embarcadero tracks have been conncected to the N Judah Extension but as of this time MUNI does not plan on running the PCCs along that portion of the route. Part of the reason for this is logisitcal in that the Southern Embarcadero/King Street extension has high-level, center platforms while the PCC's load at curb level and at the right front door of the car.
Another reason behind MUNI's not running the PCC's south of Mission in the Embarcadero is that they want to see how the LRVs handle the opening season at Pacific Bell Park before adding more service to the area. I would wager a bet that by the All-Star Break, you will see direct LRV service on gamedays between 3rd/King and Fisherman's Wharf.
One obstacle to the Pac Bell Park service being great is that there is no direct walkway (pedestrian overpass) between the Pac Bell Park side of King and the 2nd/King Station. So before and after games, the boarding passengers will have to cross two lanes of traffic to get to the boarding platforms. Considering that MUNI places its ticket vending machines along the access ramps, this is going to create both pedestrian and vehicular gridlock. I hope that they put ticket machines inside the Ballpark or at least on the South Side of King.
I'll keep everyone posted.
George Devine
ESPN Radio
San Francisco
Another
Are there platform design considerations at the Ball Park for the Peak crowds? Those platforms seemed rather small to me - for a big crowd like that
AFAIK all of them were built for 4 cars--BUT they cant use 4 car trains because some of the older platforms are too short(Forest Hill)
The N Judah does not go to Forest Park or run under the big tunnel. Sorry I went to SFO a couple months too early to see the F to Fishermans Wharf. When i was there in January, the Powell Cable Cars were not running either.
Powell-Hyde or Powell-Mason? At least now they don't have to shut down the entire system if one of the three lines develops a problem.
They do if it is on Powell St
But California stays open.
Different Line different equipment, straight line for 1.6 miles just up and down Calif Street. Have no connection with Powell Lines
The cable car system is powered by four independent cables.
1. Car house to Market via Powell
2. Car house to Hyde terminus at Beach
3. Car house to Mason terminus at Bay
4. Car house to California (serving both terminals)
There is an interchange between the California lines and the Powell lines via Hyde St. and the car barn. (Does anyone have any pictures of California cars on Hyde St. enroute between California and the car barn?)
I'm not sure which tracks around the car barn are powered by which cables. One of the problems with the cable car system is that the Powell lines are limited to the car carrying capacity of the cable serving Powell & Market. Service on the Beach and Bay branches cannot be improved beyond the capacity of the single Powell St. cable.
The double ended California St. equipment can run just fine on the Powell branches, but not vice-versa.
-Dave
As for the ticket vending machines causing traffic, something I have noticed in San Francisco is that VERY FEW people riding Muni pay fares! Most of them hae weekly or monthly passes, so they just board and show these to operators.
I rode a busy "N" line LRV from the motel where I stayed at the end of the line on a busy morning inbound trip, and I think my son and I were the ONLY people who paid cash allt he way in!! Everyone had passes.
I'm sure there will be a little bit of backing up at the TVM's but I'm gonna guess that most people will already have passes.
I saw the R142 cars on Transit Transit. I noticed that the cars (or at least the interior of the car they featured) have a strip map of one line. Two questions:
1. How does that thing work?
2. What would happen if the train was to deviate from the normal route (i.e. 2 via Lexington)? The strip map just shows one line, not the whole IRT.
Many many years ago, on a dark ans stormy night I was on the B'way Nassua platform wainting for the "A" train to take me to Howard Beach.
After about a fifteen minute wait my ears detected the sound of a train aooroaching the station. Releif washed over me , I couldn't wait to sit in the center of the first car facing forward. This point is about the fulcrum point and the smoothest riding spot of most trains. Anyway , here comes this R-10, squealing around the turn, silver grey paint, blue waistban and lots of urban art. It lumbers into the station , slows, but keeps on going. The only thing is its still coming and going.I beleive that what amountedto a 30 car consist went past me. I guess it came from the 207th yard going to C.I.
Does this happen alot? What was the longest move {number of cars} Know to human kind this side of the Mississippi on the NYCTA?
circa 1970
avid
Nice story...you qualify as an oficcial heypaul understudy
Peace,
Andee
Tnx I'll try , but he has big mochasans.
30 cars on one train? Is this physically possible with the present signal system?
The number is a guestimate, but it was a lot.
avid
Maybe, just maybe it seeeeeeeeemed loooooooooonger because you were waiting sooooooooo looooooooooong.......
Peace,
Andee
I think it is possable to move a train that long with the current signal system. The signal will turn red when the first car passes trip arm comes up after last car passes the signal next time your on a platform go the end where the sinnal to leave the station is you will see this
I was just thinking that a train of 30 cars could theoretically occupy more than one "block" at a time, thus confusing the signals.
It's quite possible that they can, but that should not confuse the signals. As long as the trip arm doesn't come up until the last car passes there should be no problem.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think it is possable to move a train that long with the
current signal system. The signal will turn red when the
first car passes trip arm comes up after last car passes
the signal next time your on a platform go the end where
the signal to leave the station is you will see this
I remember during the Lenox Rehab, on a southbound #2 train between 110th and 96th Streets, I saw a string of redbirds on the other track. It appeared to be a string of 70 redbirds (I counted the cars) on the inactive track between 110th and 96th Street. It looked like a 70-car train of redbirds, but I think it was actually seven 10-car trains one behind another. That's the longest I've seen 'em.
The Daily News once used to run the BMT Subway routes with their respective numbers and route designations. The old maps of this site just show the routes but not the numbers. Is there anyone out there who can tell me if it is possible to get an old BMT map with those disignations and numbers on board? In fact, the same goes for the IRT, come to think of it. Are these maps still in existence?
There's a scan of a route guide from a 1924 map on Jim Poulos' BMT Lines web site
1924 Route Guide
-- Ed Sachs
Most interesting... thanks for the info
Thanks Ed but the 1924 BMT map did not carry the numbers. That didn't start until 1928, but what I did was run off the map and put in the numbers myself. That will have to suffice until I can come across one that does it for me.
The 1939 Service Guide (same site) is not a map but it describes in detail each of the sixteen numbered routes and their hours of operation, including the special stuff.
Wayne
The IRT didn't have numbers, at least not until 1948, by which time it wasn't REALLY the IRT.
As a matter of interest to readers.....
The PRR Historical and Technical Society recently published (Summer and Autumn of 1999) a two-part article on the LIRR Rockaway Division.
It is available for $10 each volume from them at:
PO Box 712, Altoona, PA 16603
I chanced upon them at a train show and found them excellent, I bought them both. Excellent maps and photos, and scholarly text.
FYI......
I Lost my Cookies again...
Just make sure you clean it up, I don't want to see it...
-Hank :)
Does any know when service was terminated to Chatham, NY? In an old book I have, it said the Harlem line went all the way and beyond Dutchess County to Chatham, NY.
Service was terminated abruptly on March 20,1972. There were only two trains left by that time between Chatham and New York. One came down in the morning and the other went back at night. Train #922 came down that morning as usual. Later that day the Penn Central received permisson from the court to discontinue service and they did so---immediately. When the passengers and crew returned to Grand Central that night they were informed that the northbound train,#935, would only run as far as Dover Plains. No effort was made to provide any kind of substitute service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[Service was terminated abruptly on March 20,1972. There were only two trains left by that time between Chatham and New York. One came down in the morning and the other went back at night. Train #922 came down that morning as usual. Later that day the Penn Central received permisson from the court to discontinue service and they did so---immediately. When the passengers and crew returned to Grand Central that night they were informed that the northbound train,#935, would only run as far as Dover Plains. No effort was made to provide any kind of substitute service.]
It's a safe assumption that none of the passengers shed a tear when the Penn Central finally went to that great trainyard in the sky :-)
Sounds like what happened with the CA&E a few years prior - service into Chicago that morning, approval for abandonment issued at noon, the RR closed immediately, leaving thousands stranded.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: Its interesting to contrast this with the attitude of the Southern Railway when they received permission to cancel "The Piedmont." They ran the train fro an extra week to cover the Thanksgiving Holiday.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'd forgotten about that - thanks for the reminder. I suspect that there are two reasons for the difference between the SR's actions and those of the CA&E and the Penn Central. First, the Southern was solvent, in contrast to the bankrupt CA&E and PC. Second (and probably most important, in my opinion) was the fact that the Southern Railway was proud to uphold the traditions of the South - traditions of courtesy and of service, things like keeping a promise to people, even though those folks may be total strangers to you. I've been reminded of that quite a bit lately; my wife's car suffered a major engine failure while she was travelling through southern Virginia, en route from our NJ house to our NC home, about a month ago. It's still not ready because of a problem obtaining one part, but when the part did arrive this past Friday the mechanics (father and son) were willing to work all day Saturday and Sunday in an effort to have the engine reassembled, reinstalled, and thoroughly tested so we could pick the car up Sunday evening - because it bothered them that they had not been able to keep their promise to have it ready last week, even though it was totally beyond their control. We thanked them and told them not to rush, we'd pick it up the 25th, but it's nice to know that they cared enough about our needs to be willing to do it. That's a tradition of the Old South that, at least in the rural areas, hasn't been forgotten, and the Southern never forgot it either. (The NS is another story.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How come they cancelled the idea of putting a Transit Shop like the one at Grand Central Terminal in Penn Station?...I used to see them selling stuff from carts at Penn Station last year and saw a sign saying a shop was opening soon, but it seems like it never happened. Does anyone know why?
The fact that the MTA owns GCT and thet AMTRAK owns NYP might have something to do with it. IMHO
Peace,
Andee
Because Penn Station is sterile and ahistorical?
Per Official AFC Bulletin. Will go on sale at 7am on 3-20-2000.
Stations are ****not*** grouped but listed per bulletin.
Lexington/59--N,R,4,5,6
Cortlandt-N,R
6 Av-L
Times Square- A,C,E,1,2,3,7,9,S,N,R,
57/6av--Q
14-1,2,3,9
Lexington/63rd--Q
Bleecker-6
Franklin(Manhattan)-1,9
66--1,9
72-1,9
57-N,R
18--1,9
34--A,C,E
Any part-time booths on these stations hould get the card from the full-time booth. If they dont have the card go to the full-time booth at these stations
I will post the list tomorrow but A T & T returns! I do not know if tjhis is a new message/design but evidence suggests there may be a foreign language card soon! please check back tomorrow for the list.
Where can I get one? How much?
3TM
03/11/2000
Subway Buff,
My friend and I noticed that the other A T & T cars, the street sign one and the Times Square ones didn't last that long. It seems that the Times Square one is the tougher one to find.
Collector alert! - There are TWO varities of the "streetsign" card and TWO varieties of the "Times Square" AT&T Metrocards. The difference is in the messages.
Bill Newkirk
Anyone going on the Transit Museum tour of the G line with Joe Cunningham on Saturday?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I have a curious question. I just discovered we used to have a train going from Myrtle Avenue to Jay Street in 1969! That would have been a BIG help for me now. :D
Anyways, I know the remanants in Myrtle Avenue are still there. And the line has been demolished. But I goto Jay Street everyday, where is the closed off section in Jay?
It was above ground, it couldn't have been above ground starting Jay since there are all businesses there. Must've been a tunnel, but where? And if it was above, where was it?
[Anyways, I know the remanants in Myrtle Avenue are still there. And the line has been demolished. But I goto Jay Street everyday, where is the closed off section in Jay?
It was above ground, it couldn't have been above ground starting Jay since there are all businesses there. Must've been a tunnel, but where? And if it was above, where was it?]
As far as I know, the line was completely elevated, with no tunnel segments at all.
The Myrtle Ave. el terminal was elevated over Myrtle Ave at the intersection of Bridge St.
To add: the Jay/Bridge St. terminal was not the
original end of the Myrtle Ave. line. The line
continued on Myrtle and then over the Brooklyn
Bridge to Park Row. The section south of Bridge/Jay St. was torn down in 1944. The Bridge/Jay St.
terminal was converted to a terminal station and it
remained in this capacity until it's closure in 1969. There was never a physical connection between it and the Jay St. IND station. A paper transfer was used and passangers had to exit the station and walk the street between these 2 lines, a la Franklin/Fulton pre-rehab.
(sorry for the double-post.)
To add: the Jay/Bridge St. terminal was not the original end of the Myrtle Ave. line. The line continued on Myrtle and then over the Brooklyn Bridge to Park Row.
Aren't you forgetting about Fulton Ferry service via Park Ave, Hudson and York Streets?
I had a post on the subject last month.
However I can not navigate the selection criteria today to retrieve it.
My knowledge of this subject is limited to what I've read and been told. What was this service?
My knowledge of this subject is limited to what I've read and been told. What was this service?
There are many references to the Myrtle Ave El service between 1888 and 1908 (when through electric service to Park Row began). During that period the terminals were in chronological order: Sands St; Fulton Ferry; Sands St and finally Park Row/Sands St.
Link to Joe KorNer Description of Park Ave El
IIRC, this was the old "mainline" that was never electrified. The Lexington Ave el was once part of this line.
Again, my knowledge of 19th century rail service is limited to what I read here. Thanks for the link.
03/11/2000
Let's not forget that Bridge-Jay Sts. was originally Bridge St. before being extended to Jay St. for the IND transfer purpose. Also of course there was never a tower there before the line was cut back in '44.
A far as remnants of "Ole Myrt", I understand that was or is a Catholic Church using a piece of steelwork as the alter. I've heard about this, but never saw it in person.
Of course you can go to Myrtle Ave. and Lewis St. and see the portion of "el" that remained after termination of service south of Broadway. This remained up because of the now abandoned substation then in use that carried power lines to Broadway. The long abandoned tracks up there remained only until recently when the TA removed them to keep kids off the structure.
Bill Newkirk
[As far as remnants of "Ole Myrt", I understand that was or is a Catholic Church using a piece of steelwork as the alter. I've heard about this, but never saw it in person.]
Do you know the name of the church? That would be a most interesting sight!
03/11/2000
If I hear anything, I'll let you know.
Bill newkirk
[Again, my knowledge of 19th century rail service is limited to what I read here.]
I doubt that any of us have _personal_ knowledge :-)
True - although you might get some argument out of my children on that subject :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Myrtle Ave. el terminal was elevated over Myrtle
Ave at the intersection of Bridge St.
Yes, and the portion between Broadway and Park Row was never rebuilt to handle steel subway equipment.
It closed in 1969, and was torn down. Anythiong that is on the ROW now was built after the termination of service and demolition. The line ran originally from Metropolitan Ave in Queens to Park Row (via the Brooklyn Bridge) and was cut back as el service was cut back when the 5th Ave and Fulton St els were closed. The last terminal was Bridge-Jay, where there was, at some point, a free walking transfer (get ticket) to the Myrtle Ave station on the BMT (this station has been closed). Trains from the Canarsie and Jamacia lines reached this area via the Lexington Ave (Brooklyn) el (cutoff form the Broadway (Brooklyn) el after the Gates Ave station), which joined the Myrtle line near it's Grand Ave station. Service on the Lexington ended in the mid 50s.
-Hank
Hank, the paper transfer was to Jay St Borough Hall on the IND. It was a limited transfer. You had to get it at Fulton/Nassau on the "A" or stations S/O Bway on the Myrtle. There was NEVER a transfer to the BMT Myrtle Av Station.
I believe that, by tariff, that transfer was also only good to Bway-Nassau, though of course that would have been impossible to enforce. In later years a scam was to:
1. Get on the B-54 bus on southern Myrtle Ave and request a transfer to the "A".
2. Do your shopping, etc in Downtown Brooklyn.
3. Use the transfer to get on the "A", get off at Bway-Nassau for a M/QJ.
4. Ride to Myrtle-Bway and get a free transfer to the B-54
5. Take the B-54 home.
A round trip for 1 fare......
It's funny. I posted that because of what I remember reading on the old subway maps about the restriction and what other posters on this forum had said. However I remember distinctly taking the el to Bridge/Jay either from the J at Bway or the LL at Wyckoff and changing for the A at Jay Street without having anything to do with Bway/Nassau. That was part of my railfan routine in the late 60's. Riding a R1-9, a Standard, a Q car and an R-10 all in a row. And I started my trip to Jamaica (to get the J) by taking an old LIRR MU or diesel.
It's funny. I posted that because of what I
remember reading on the old subway maps about the
restriction and what other posters on this forum had
said. However I remember distinctly taking the el
to Bridge/Jay either from the J at Bway or the LL at
Wyckoff and changing for the A at Jay Street without
having anything to do with Bway/Nassau. That was
part of my railfan routine in the late 60's. Riding
a R1-9, a Standard, a Q car and an R-10 all in a
row. And I started my trip to Jamaica (to get the
J) by taking an old LIRR MU or diesel.
The other trick was to use the B54's AM or PM transfer to do our shopping in downtown Bklyn, and return via the A at Jay to get to the G at Hoyt-Schemerhorn. That's what us poor Pratt students did for years!!
The return trip ticket for the B54 was available at only one booth by the J platform fare control at Bway-Nassau.
Another interesting point is that in a recent issue of "Passenger Transport", an obit for former MTA Chair Harold Fisher stated that Fisher "successfully advocated demolition of the Myrtle Avenue El".
Successfully? A poor choice of words, I feel. I've heard that Fisher hated els so fervently that he would have torn them all down if given the opportunity. Demolishing the "MJ" was his personal crusade. Perhaps someone with firsthand knowledge can correct/embellish this?
The ten years from 1969-79 saw Myrtle, 3rd Ave, the Culver Shuttle, and the Jamaica el come down - the latter without replacement for over a decade. Also the Franklin Shuttle was nearly lost.
Interesting, the major reason given for Myrtle's demolition (as I've been told) was that the Navy Yard closed and ridership went down. Yet turnstile registrations actually increased slightly between 1960 and 68, the last full year of the el's operation.
I've always felt that transit professionals make poor social scientists, and social scientists make extremely poor transit professionals......
Lets face it. The IND Crosstown Line "G" almost exactly duplicates the route of the lower Myrtle just a few short blocks southe of it. With the exception of Marcus Garvey Blvd (then Sumner) all the stations on the G ar close to the former stations on the Myrtle, and unless I'm wrong I don't think the "G" is packed in there like sardines. I miss the wooden "Q" cars alot but I couldn't care less about the structure anyway.
By the way, when they tour it down, did the people on Myrtle sing the Christmas song "Noel, Noel"???
Good Grief!! That joke was making the railfan circles in Baltimore at Xmas parties in 1970!! Especially popular among the punsters in the group.
I was there (along with a lot of others) in 1969. The atmosphere was like waiting for a beloved relative to die. Same thing at many a "last night" on streetcars.
Yup, and in the years after the el removal a new song called "No Business, No Business" could be heard, sung by people owning businesses on the lower part of Myrtle Ave. The same song was heard in Jamaica in the late 70's too.
I agree. Was the demise of Mays and Gertz in Jamaica coincidence? Perhaps, perhaps not!
[Was the demise of Mays and Gertz in Jamaica coincidence (with the closing of the El)? Perhaps, perhaps not!]
This topic has been discussed in some length on nyc.transit and maybe here on Subtalk to a lesser extent. It's the sort of thing that gets perilously close to urban-legend territory. As best anyone can determine, it is true that some Jamaica merchants did indeed press for the removal of the Jamaica Avenue El even though everyone knew that it would be many years before the Archer Avenue subway line would open. And yes, during the interim post-El, pre-subway period, quite a few businesses failed and Jamaica's economic fortunes went downhill to a significant extent. What complicates matters is the fact that other forces were at play during this period that may have led to the business closings and to Jamaica's deterioration. It is very difficult to determine just how much the lack of transit service contributed to this situation. And there seems to be no consensus as to whether the merchants who most agitated for the El's removal were the ones that fled the area soon afterward.
Jamaica was in a decline during the mid 1970's, before the el closure. So the demolition of the outer portion of the el wasn't the sole factor in the deterioration of the area. However, the el closure finshed Jamaica off. With no easy rail access (Jamaica's main selling point to areas in Western Queens and East NY), people sought other, more upscale areas to shop. Green Acres was that ideal area.
Jamaica has rebounded somewhat after the Archer Ave. line opened. However, the area east of Parsons Blvd, the center of old Jamaica's commercial district, has still not recovered from the el removal.
[Jamaica was in a decline during the mid 1970's, before the el closure. So the demolition of the outer portion of the el wasn't the sole factor in the deterioration of the area. However, the el closure
finshed Jamaica off. With no easy rail access (Jamaica's main selling point to areas in Western Queens and East NY), people sought other, more upscale areas to shop. Green Acres was that ideal area.]
Green Acres' popularity shows that Jamaica's decline was not primarily due to the loss of transit access. That's because Green Acres has no rail transit, and indeed didn't have direct bus service from NYC until fairly recently. Had Jamaica offered an equivalent quantity and variety of shopping, it presumably would have done better than Green Acres as it always has had much better transit access, even during the post-El, pre-subway period.
Mays and Gertz closed down all over, not just Jamaica.
Did Macy's Herald Square close down when the 6th Av El was removed?
No, because it had direct subway service in less than 2 years after the el closure. It took 11 for the Jamaica Ave. el to be partially replaced with the Archer Ave. line.
The BMT Broadway line was already there when the 6th Ave. el closed. So was the IRT 7th Ave. line.
No, because it had direct subway service even after the closure of the el (BMT). It took 11 years for the Jamaica Ave. el to be partially replaced with the Archer Ave. line.
Yeah but Mays closed in Levittown and Glen Oaks too.
Mays was in financial trouble in the early 70's. Perhaps their zeal to have the el removed was based partly on a desire to re-energize Jamaica. It had the opposite effect.
Isn't Gertz still open in Bayside?
I don't think so. Where? Bay Terrace Shopping Center?
Macy's and Gertz were the prime sponsors for removing the Jamaica Ave El - not Mays. However, Gertz was already owned by Allied Stores at that time. When Gertz was independent, the Jamaica store had the highest volume of sales per square foot in the country.
Maybe my memories of Jamaica fail me, but where was the MAcys location at? I do remember the large May's building 1 block west of the el terminal, but MAcy's?
Macy's was located at 165th St and 89th Ave - 1 block North of the terminal.
BTW Montgomery-Ward closed way before the El shutdown.
Thanks. I was rather young when the el was shut down, and my memories of pre-el closure Jamaica is a bit foggy.
Sorry, no rim shot for that. Although they may have had a Funny Name Convention at some point in time.-)
03/14/2000
You're right Conrad, I was told that Harold Fisher did indeed hate the Myrtle Avenue "el" with a passion. He felt sorry for all the poor people who lived along the route and vowed that if was appointed to the MTA, his first order of businees was to shut down "Old Myrt" and demolish the structure. Well, he got his way, but the neighborhood hasn't changed for the better because the "el" was removed.
Bill Newkirk
Lexington Ave. el service ended in October of 1950. Our own Karl B. was there for the event; he rode on the last train.
I just learned recently that there was a period of time in the 1920's that the Lexington Ave el had trains that actually terminated at Crescent St on the Jamaica Line during rush hours. Since I lived at Crescent St in the 1940's. I'm sorry that I missed seeing that service which apparently ended before my time.
My father told me that during the war, the Lexington Ave el ran all the way out to Jamaica.
My earliest memories were sometime during WW-2 at which they terminated at 111th St. I'm not sure that I can remember back to the beginning of WW-2.
When I was 11 year-old back in the Summer, 1970. My family moved into the Fort Greene area. Once the packing was done I made a beeline to the Myrtle Ave El. Much to my disappointment the stairs were fenced off. I was a very disappointed kid, my older cousin said, "it was slated for destruction." I walked from Hall street to Myrtle & Jay Streets marveling how it was constructed. Months later I watched the El being tore down piece by piece a friendly construction worker gave me a bolt it had markings on it. I still have it and cherish it, memories of my childhood. I never rode the El.
I was two years ahead of you, and when I was 12 hiked over to the LL to go out to Brooklyn to ride the Myrtle el in August of 1969, after they announced it was closing.
The escalator up to the Wycoff Ave. platform was cool (the old, wooden type they used to have in the IND 34th St. station), but I had to wait through two M trains before the el's Q cars came around the bend. I can still remember wondering what was with the small closed-in area at the end of the cars that had their own seats (I didn't learn about their previous life as gate cars until much later), and the sound was like nothing else on the system, kind of like an R-1/9 about three octaves higher and with a much less hollow sound (no suprise, since the cars were wood, not metal). At Bridge-Jay, I just followed the crowd to get the paper transfer to go down to the F train.
I was glad I was at least old enough to get in on the tail end of both the Qs and the Standards. Fortunately, I had a friend whose mom lived on Webster Ave. north of Fordham Road, so I got to take a bunch of trips on the Third Ave. el before it shut down.
I left New York in 1957 so my only experience on the Myrtle el at that time was with the gate cars. The 600's, 900's and 1200's were used until 1951. After 1951, they used only the 1300's until they were replaced by the "Q's".
Riding the open platform between cars on both the Myrtle and the Lexington was a railfan treat that I still remember 50 years later.
Where didja live in Clinton Hill? I lived at 215 Willoughby (Pratt dorm) 79-83, and then 12 St. James 83-92. Still go over there alot, friends, church, and stuff like that.
The only "remnants" of the line are on Myrtle between Broadway and Wyckoff (the M line). It merges into the J line on Wway, and after Wyckoff it turns down Palmetto for a few blocks, then via private ROW to Metropolitan.
The full line all the way downtown would have been helpful to me too.
I guess that nobody is interested in the T shirts. I only received requests for 17 of them which is half of the min amount, so I will not order any for now. Thanks to those who expressed interest.
In assisting some family in scheduling a visit from Central Pennsylvania to New York City, I have just noticed that Amtrak has made some changes in their "Keystone" timetable ("Winter 2000"), which have basically resulted in slashed weekend service and the removal of a couple of thru-trains between Harrisburg and New York (service only to/from Philly). This surprised me, in that the ridership on the route has gained throughout the late 1990s, and has often beat most other Amtrak service in percent-gain (see Railway Age). Even more surprising, considering the glowing article in February's TRAINS, which raved about the bright future for the line in a cover story. When Amtrak cut service in the 1980s the result was a severe plunge in ridership. Pennsylvanians, former or otherwise, comments?
THEY PUBLISHED THE ARTICLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I DON'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!!!
I'M SORRY FOR ALL THE NASTY THINGS I SAID ABOUT
SOME OF YOU IN THE ARTICLE ( JUST KIDDING )
Congradulations, Paul! Glad to hear that.
Here is the article.
Chaohwa
THATS GREAT. are you sure that salaaam didn't make this post, sure looks like it. The heypaul I know NEVER uses caps.......
andee--- you're right--- i only use caps or ! after i have been in the newspaper
i was thinking of going over to the transit museum for a couple of hours this afternoon--- maybe after 1 pm--- i don't know if anyone would be interested in dropping over there and maybe hanging out---i am duplicating some more copies of my r9 and philly broad street subway tape that i will bring along... i have to enter into negotiations with my stomach to see if it can stand the excitement--- i am basically a shy and quiet guy
i would like to thank david pirmann for creating and being the gracious host of this site--- i have really enjoyed myself here and have expanded the straight jacket constraints of my life--- many many thanks david--- and many many thanks to all of you who i am sure will vote for me as subtalker of the year :>)
heypaul, you were obviously too normal in talking to the Daily News reporter, which is why the story ended up in the Saturday paper (the lowest circulation day of the week).
If you had given them someway to tag all railfans as being like the 57th Street tower guy, I'm sure the story could have made it into the Sunday paper with some type of ominous warning about crazed subway riders the public should be aware about (which unfortunately is probably why some editor assigned Mr. Ingrassia this story in the first place).
Saturday edition or not, at least they didn't spike it, and let it run, albeit with the different take they they may have planned.
Great Article Paul, I am proud of you my fellow Madison HS friend
I agree with that. Paul did a superb job for a paper who's prior job at defaming both buffs and workers boggles the mind. He was WAY too normal. Did you go to Lundy's and what did you drink?
engine brake talking about my interview with the daily news reporter said "he (heypaul) was WAY too normal.... i'm not used to being called normal... i don't really consider myself to be leading a normal life... hopefully i am leading my own life as well as i can... i do have an ability at times, to back away from myself, and reflect on what's happening, and hopefully speak honestly about what i see happening... i do try to speak openly and with some humor about what is going on inside my head... maybe that impressed the reporter... he was very nice in how he portrayed me...
i don't understand your question about "did you go to lundy's and what did you drink?"
1. are you suggesting that that was the kind of question he asked?
2. are you asking if i went to lundy's with the reporter and spoke over drinks? ( we spoke twice on the phone, i never met him )
3. are you asking if i went out to celebrate in lundy's? ( no, but i love the place, especially in the past when i went with my family in the 60's and i didn't have to pay )
HeyPaul, way to go! You must feel honored to get onto the Daily News, but how did they know that you were a NYC Subway Buff?
R36Gary
gary asked how the reporter knew i was a transit buff--- i think he found this website and must have read a bunch of posts--- he e-mailed several people asking to speak with them....
Congrads to you Heypaul ! I noticed 5 others mentioned in the article including Dave & a link to the SubTalk site, BUT you were the lead into the story ... way to go !
Mr t__:^)
In the Daily News railfan article, I particularly noted the reference to railfans as "mostly single men"!! Although that descriptor fits me rather well, it also strikes me as a stereotype.
Surely there are railfans who are single women, or married men or women? Maybe even railfan couples? Whole railfan families?
Let's hear from all quarters and shoot down this stereotype once and for all!!!
I'm a married man, and I'm sure there are many others on here who are. I got the distinct impression from this article that the kinds of people who profess their love for the subway system are the kinds of men who "don't do well with the fairer sex". What bull____!
OK, so lets start a new thread about who is a member of the mile low club, like the airline's mile high club!!!
I got to second base on an M train 4 years ago. Does that count?
Hopefully it wasn't an R40M - those slippery seats could have made it difficult. :o>
Wayne
It was an R42, IIRC.
Second base, huh? On the M train? The 7 goes to Shea Stadium and the 4 & the D go to Yankee stadium. You must have been headed for the minor leagues.
LOL. She wasn't up for anything beyond a 2-bagger in a public place.
I am a 45 year old married railfan. I also shoot down the stereotype that railfans have "one-track" minds with no other interests other than trains. While the trains have been in my blood since I was a toddler, I am also into electronics, ham radio, computers (hardware, software and internet), chess, nature trailing, gardening, cooking, baseball, history (0f any kind, not only train history), antiquing, ... , the list goes on and on.
My congrats to HeyPaul Kronenberg for having the NY Daily News article on railfans published. Way to go, Paul!
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
I said this in an earlier post, but I think the writer came in with the misconception that railfans are obsessed with subways to the exclusion of everything else. In my case that's certainly not true, and it's true of most other people in this newsgroup. I'm rather angry at the News for allowing this to slip past, actually.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right on, Kevin!
I have numerous interests outside of transit (Billiards, Biking, camping, and handball/paddleball among my favorites).
And I am married (albeit, separated at the moment).
And I have always dated throughout my adult life, so yes, stereotypes of railfans continue (and are likely not to change -- for a variety of reasons).
Doug aka BMTman
Go get 'em Doug. Imagine the stupidity of that writer. I happen to love golf (very mediocre at it though I do have my moments), I'm an enthusiastic runner, and a former baseball coach that is still involved with tutoring players. I do a little fishing as well and go to card shows. I'll bet there are others of the railfan genre who are even more well rounded than I am. That writer can stick it.
Hey Kevin: I wouldn't get too worked up over it. Some of those writers haven't been on a subway for eons and couldn't distinguish barf from branola. We know what makes us tick so we don;t have to concern ourselves with some lowbrow thinks.
At school, being interested in even one of those things that you mentioned above can hurt you when it comes to getting girls. And having an interest in trains makes things even worse because there are less railfans around than there are computer nerds, so it makes getting girls even harder. In my school, to get girls, one needs to be interested in hard-core socializing (even on trains, which doesn't involve going to the railfan window), sports, cars, and anything that involves flaunting your abilities. So I think I understand what this Dr. Hood means.
I'm married, and Rosanne goes with me on all my railfan trips including abandoned tunnels.
What a lucky man. My wife gives me a dirty look everytime I'm posting to Subtalk, and she always says "Are you playing with your trains again?".
I'm working on her ...
My Fiance joined us to the Transit museum. She even suggested that we see if we could have our wedding there! She came with me on the Polo Grounds Shuttle tour, even took some of the pictures that are on the site. We're planning to honeymoon via Amtrak! Go ahead anf tell me that there aren't female railfains, I dare you!
Oh, yeah, Peggy posts here occasionally...
-Hank
Rosemary always asks how the day's trip went and when I get my pictures back from the lab she's always gets to them before I do!
She is particularly fond of the station pictures, not so much the trains. (She thinks the Slants are "funny-looking" and can't understand why they were made the way they were). She even likes the IND station pictures, particularly the ones with bright color schemes and tile bands.
Wayne
[In the Daily News railfan article, I particularly noted the reference to railfans as "mostly single men"!! Although that descriptor fits me rather well, it also strikes me as a stereotype.
Surely there are railfans who are single women, or married men or women? Maybe even railfan couples? Whole railfan families?]
There certainly are many married railfans, me included. Now, the mostly male part is more accurate, at least in my experience. That many be something inherent to transportation-related interests in general, not just railfanning. Roadgeeks are almost entirely male, more so than railfans.
I know several couples who are actively involved with rail hobbies.
Another thing that occurred to me ... it seems like a number of railfans are single for the simple reason that they're too young to be married.
AFAIK, according to New York State law, I'm no longer of that group. Now the only reason I posted that was to verify if this is the case. I would appreciate it if you post the response to Off Subtalk. The preceding link will attempt to post a message, if you are a non member, I will need to verify it, and I will also use that e-mail address to create a membership.
I enjoyed the article in today's News, but I was disturbed by the emphasis on people who break the law (there have been only a few major incidents of this, so I don't know why it has to be emphasized).
I also could do less with the characterization that railfans are 'mostly single men.' If so, so what? Why mention it? Unless the writer was tryng to make some kind of point with that.
The article, like the one in Brooklyn Bridge Magazine about a year ago, has the subtle inference that railfans are weirdos and kooks. Some of 'em maybe, but not me, at least not in my mind...
www.forgotten-ny.com
An even more insulting point about the article, is where the writer asks a psychiatrist if being a railfan is a mental disorder.
If they feel railfans have a problem, they should start looking at riots and shootings that happen at rock concerts and european soccer games.
Railfans are not suffering from any malady. We just love what we do. If they are looking for wierdos maybe they should at Al Sharpton and Pat Robertson and some of those other political jerks. They would have a field day. But lay off of us railfans.
I wouldn't call Sharpton a wierdo. He's just a very clever con-man whos loves to scam his own people and is very good at it. Ditto Pat Robertson, who has elevated religeous fanatacism into a growth industry.
I don't think railfans are any different than any other hobbiest. Stamp collectors have collections of varying sizes. Car enthusiasts often have heaps in their driveway that they intend to restore some day (and usually do). Some railfans collect books and pictures while others assemble part of R-9s in their bedrooms. The part of the description I didn't like is the suggestion that many are single males leaving the impression of some form of social disfunction.
Does this mean that railfans who chase the seldom run steam engines in cars or who even look in the direction of trains is also a weido.....out here we don't have subways but do have light rail and there never is a vacant spot at the front window looking over the shoulder of the operator,now with the west side line running in a subway like tunnel with one station under the zoo,and i have intrests in drawing,bowling painting figure models,etc
I think there is some snobbism here. No one asks if auto or airplane or fashion enthusiasts are crazy. I'd say we should be described as rail advocates, but the best known of those is Jerry Nadler, and he IS crazy.
Par for the course with the Sleazemedia FREEDOM OF THE PRESS BELOLNGS TO HE WHO OWNS ONE
[The article, like the one in Brooklyn Bridge Magazine about a year ago, has the subtle inference that railfans are weirdos and kooks. Some of 'em maybe, but not me, at least not in my mind...]
Non-railfans might consider railfans to be a strange bunch because they (the non-railfans) simply can't comprehend that anyone would have such an interest. We probably often forget that many subway and commuter rail users find the trains no better than a necessary evil and find it hard to accept that some people enjoy them. Many other interests don't have such a stigma - for instance, while I don't go birdwatching, I can accept the fact that some people have different interests and find it fascinating. But given the rather choleric attitude many people have toward the subway, they just can't (or won't) accept the fact that not everyone thinks that way.
Well, I won't claim everyone in my family as a railfan, but ... I'm one, my wife is tolerant of it (and has come on a couple of TM tours), both of my sons are (the older one doesn't care about subways but he can talk your ears off on the subject of Baldwins and U-Boats, and Anon_e_mouse Jr. posts here occasionally - he's reading the board with me right now), my younger daughter is tolerant, and my older daughter is moderately enthusiastic, as is her husband. Their older son Alex (who will be three the 20th of this month) is a rabid railfan, thanks to both of his grandfathers, and their younger son Drew (five months) is already getting indoctrinated. I'm headed west later this week to visit them; Zayda (me), Poppa Geezer (Alex's other grandfather), Larry (my son-in-law) and Alex are planning to make the five hour drive from their home in Las Vegas to Perris, California to visit the Orange Empire Railway Museum next Saturday.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've actually been told railfanning is an "old white
guy" hobby by friends(most of them white) and I
don't fit as being one.
I'm single in that I'm not married. I'm a 17 year
old black guy and love trains.
Take that, Daily News!
One of the great things about railfanning is that it crosses all racial, gender and religious lines.
You can meet subwaybuffs of all backgrounds at train shows, rail museums and even by just riding the system.
That's one of the added attractions of this hobby -- it's all inclusive*.
Doug aka BMTman
* with the exception of heypaul, who is in a class all by himself.
doug correctly points out that i am in a class all by myself
i am intrigued with people's irritation about clifton hood's observation that hard-core train buffs are mostly single men
some of the reactions posted here expressed much anger about that observation--- if i really was concerned about people's opinion of my lifestyle, i suppose i would have married so that i would not be suspect of being a single male--- i imagine the concerns of being seen as a single male involve a number of serious issues:
1. the guy has no social skills and doesn't know how to attract a woman
2. the guy is so wrapped up in trains that he has no interest in other things
3. the guy is not attracted to women because he is attracted to men
these are worrisome issues
i suppose my biggest issue regarding single men, married men, single women, married women who are railfans is a humorlessness, an inability to laugh at themselves and at me, and a strong sense that there really is something wrong with them...
at times, some of you speak of your children and grandchildren with much affection and love--- as a single childless guy i envy your good feelings about your family--- i envy your having people in your life who care about you--- i don't have much of that--- but i do value what i do have in the way of independence and a sense of self
these are personal issues that i would like to talk about with people--- i again mention the club i started at yahoo called UsTalk--- the web site is http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ustalk
or click on
express routing to ustalk
I am married, although I was a railfan long before that. My wife's interest in the subway system only extends to the point that it gets her from here to there, and when I see something I deem 'unusual' (rolling stock running on a line it normally doesn't), she tells me I need a life.
We honeymooned in Southern California in April 1992 (just missed the riots!), and she had never been there, so we took in the normal 'tourist' sights instead of riding what was then built of the RTS. She did, however, catch me drooling at the sight of the Blue (?) Line as we drove along the 710 to the Queen Mary/Spruce Goose complex. Fortunately, we did get to ride the Trolley from downtown San Diego to the border as San Ysidro.
Looks like I'm corrupting my son into a rail buff, but at least it's a way of getting him out of the house and giving the Mrs. time to herself. If we go to D.C. next year as planned, he and I can explore the Metro system while my wife naps off the day's sightseeing.
The unlimited Metrocards have given railfanning a new dimension, as they now afford me the opportunity to explore elements of the system outside the fare control such as unusual entrances and stairway patterns, as is common in the deep-bore stations of Washington Heights.
From what I've seen reading Subtalk for more than a year now, we have many more interests than just the trains.
I'm single myself, so I fit right in that stereotype. No regrets, either, although if the right person were to come along...
03/11/2000
Todays Saturday news published a story complete with pictures about a certain railfan with a partial subway car mock up in his apartment!
WHAT'S NEXT !!!......Some guy selling wall calendars with color pictures of subway cars??
GEEESHH!!!......Gimme a brake!!
Bill Newkirk
Or some GEEK will start a website or something.....Seriously- CONGRATS paul!! As far as the 'stereotype' is concerned, they could have played up the fact that it is a hobby the whole family can enjoy....but all in all, NOT BAD.....
Well Done Heypaul you where the talk of the Pelham Crew Room today. I just finished my first trip when one of my Co Workers shown me a copy of the Daily News with you and the motormans cab. You got the title as king of the transit buffs. The we started talking about SubTalk so maybe there may be more IRT Employee postings. Then we talked about railfans. Also someone said they where going to post story up on the Bulliton Board in the crew room. Well you got your 30 Minutes of fame at Pelham.
hey thanks pelham bay dave---- although i am a little worried--- the guy they arrested for trying to break into the signal tower-- didn't they have his face plastered up in crew rooms all over the system?---
i'd be happy to come up there and give a brief lecture explaining whats the unit of electric power?
it's strange--- when bernhard goetz, the subway shooter was caught, there were a number of occasions when i heard some teenagers point to me and say "there's goetz"... seriously--- i also have people ask me if i am woody allen--- now finally i will be recognized for being heypaul......
I passed Bernie Goetz in the street once. I gave him a lot of room....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Allow me to be among the last to congratulate you. :-)
While it still doesn't realize my lifelong goal of having my photograph published on the cover of the New York Post under the headline "PROMINENT NYC ARCHITECT NAMED IN CONNECTION WITH AMPUTEE SEX SCANDAL", at least now I can tell people that a friend of mine was once the subject of a story by the Daily News.
Railfans are mostly single men??? Hey, I resemble that remark...
I haven't been posting on SubTalk much recently (been busy with about a million other things), but I still do my share of lurking.
Congrats again, heypaul!
-- David
Chicago, IL
thanks david--- i have just been warned by someone in the know, that at the conclusion of the daily news article on incompetent and dangerous doctors, they are planning an article on incompetent math tutors--- several former students of mine have given sworn testimony that i told them that:
1. the exact value of pi is 3
2. 8 is a prime number
3. on the sat's the correct answer is always "c"
4. i knew a way to round off infinity
5. many math teachers are worshippers of satan
6. the distributive law was found unconstituional by the supreme court by a vote of 19 to 13
And I have figured out a way to divide by -0- !
Wayne :o>
PLEASE tell me this is another of your 'crazy' posts. I really can't believe that people are THAT stupid.
-Hank
I remember an old SNL skit which was a show called "Common Knowledge," hosted by Steve Martin.
The questions were selected by a panel of professors from Princeton University.
The answers were from a survey of 100 17 year old high school seniors.
Here's the state capitals category:
Oklahoma:
Oklahoma City
New York:
New York City
Virginia:
Virginia City
Washington:
Washington D.C.
(3. on the sat's the correct answer is always "c")
Thats how I made sergeant!!!
hey sarge--- pelham bay dave gave me an idea--- he said that they posted the article up at pelham crew room
any chance you could have the article duplicated and reduced in size and distributed to officers with instructions to keep it inside their caps--- the public needs to be protected from my kind---
That's great stuff! And our beloved www.nycsubway.org gets a BIG PLUG. Bravo, Dave! Bravissimo. And hats and helmets off to EVERYBODY ELSE out there you all know who you are.
I'll pass this along to subway-buff and Simon Billis when we take to the rails Monday morning at 7:45 for another all-day affair. We will start at Penn Station, by the stairs opposite the police station near the ticket booths/waiting area.
Wayne
Way to go, fellas! Congrats!!
--Mark
03/12/2000
heypaul,
Congradulations to your article in Saturday's Daily News. I guess we can all be taken seriously now!
Bill Newkirk
Most righteous!
Heypaul, congratulations!
All in all a good spread on you and your R-9 cab! (Though the photo makes the room look like a jail cell).
PS, yeah, I noticed how the author mistakenly said the Canarsie Line, when in fact the text should have read 'Brighton Line'.
WE NOW have our 'SubTalk Celebrity'! (However, I thought you're exploits would be better reported by something like The National Enquirer!)
Doug aka BMTman
Rumor has it the Port Authority is trying to block the subway extension to LaGuardia. Bad enough it won't pay for it -- despite promises made when a passenger facility charge was imposed on LaGuardia passengers. Now it is trying to scuttle the whole thing altogether.
Perhaps that can be the subject of a future deal with Mayor Vallone. Vallone agrees to allow the Port Authority to keep landing fees high in New York to subsidize operations in New Jersey, extending the lease for a pittance past 2015. In exchange, the Port Authority agrees not to implement an rail connection to LaGuardia. Sounds fair, right? Just the kind of deal New York politicians make all the time at every level of government.
Rumor has it the Port Authority is trying to block the subway extension to LaGuardia...
It would be nice to think that there were at least one sensible agency BUT I would not put any stock in such rumors. The amount of money to be made from this $1.5 billion boondogle will support an entire generation of politicians, contractors, planners, etc.
Bad enough it won't pay for it -- despite promises made when a passenger facility charge was imposed on LaGuardia passengers.
I agree that the imposition of the passenger facility charge was imposed prematurely. The PANYNJ should be compelled to return it and to put all past and current charges in an escrow account.
Until both NYC airports are wrestled away from the Port Authority, nothing substantive can be done about rail access to both airports. The Port Authority should be disbanded anyway. It continues to subsidize the $1.00 PATH fare at the expense of New York, it favors Newark airport when it comes to upgrade and rehabilitation funding, and it gets a ridiculously low rent rate for both NYC airports.
And TBTA subsidizes the subways. Some people say that that attracks more people to the subways and keeps the crowding down on the roads, which benefits the drivers who remain to pay the tolls. Same thing may be true of the $1.00 fare on the PATH. A relatively cheap commute from NJ keeps the crowding down, relatively, in the NY housing market, not to mention all of the other benefits we New Yorkers enjoy from having those people from across the river visit every day.
(NYC benefits from having people come in from NJ)
Perhaps we could raise the subway fare, turn the proceeds over the New Jersey Transit, and get even more benefits.
(Rumor has it the Port Authority is trying to block the subway extension to LaGuardia...It would be nice to think that there were at least one sensible agency)
There are lots of sensible agencies in New York. The MTA has protected us from the Second Avenue Subway boondoggle. NYC DOT has protected us from the Manhattan Bridge replacement boondoggle.
Compare that to the nonsenses elsewhere. Almost every major city has the "boondoggle" of a one seat rail connection from its airport to its downtown.
Here in NYC we have better things to do with our money. Excess hospital beds built out over the FDR, funded by Medicaid, for example.
But the LaGuardia thing IS an outrage. In the early 1990s recession, the MTA was forced to raise tolls, raise fares, and cut service. The Port Authority kept fares and tolls low, and eliminated most of its airport access plan instead -- collecting a passenger facility charge all the while. If the Port Authority tolls and and PATH fares had been raised to something close to what New Yorkers pay, and the whole airport access system was under construction, the whole PA conflict would never have occurred. It is a ripoff that grows worse each year. The next TA fare increase will only increase the disparity.
Just to let you guys know, the PF fees that that the Airlines charge on tickets for certain cities, are mandated by FEDERAL LAW, for improvements to the Airports and Airport Facilities Only. Not to substudize PATH, or the Bridges or Tunnels, etc. They are for use on the Airport Only. Some cities used these fees for other things, and they were forced to return the money to the Airport, plus pay giantic fines. Plus there is a Maximun of 5 years where they can charge these fees. Then the have to stop for at least 19 months, and then restore them in 2 years on 2 years off up to 10 years. The PofA can nut give the Money to MTA to extend the N Line. They have to build it themselves, like they are doing in Newark.
(Airport landing fees may be used for airports only, by federal law)
The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey has an exemption, because the merger of the airports and other facilities pre-dates that law. As part of its war on the Port Authority, NY has tried to get rid of that exemption, without success.
The feds are fighting the pa for using PFC'S for construction of airtran from JFK to Jamaica Station and studing the future and building the ext from Jamaica Station to LGA.
The Pof A will get away with it. as long as there are no intermediate stops off airport property. They can make as many stops on the Airport Ground, but once off the Airports they could not make any stops until the terminal
Congratulations to heypaul and David Pirman on achieveing their "15 minutes of fame". Excellent article that depicts all of us in a good light.
Here is the "url" for those from out of town or to cheap to part with 50 cents
http://www.nydailynews.com/2000-03-11/New_York_Now/Cityscape/a-59592.asp
Again congratulations to heypaul
Peace,
Andee
Now that everyone knows what Heypaul looks like, with that photo of him in the article, he will probably be besieged by fanatic railfan autograph seekers wherever he goes!
Fotunately (or is that unfortunately?) for us Subtalkers, this means that he will have to live a life of seclusion, doing nothing but posting from his computer :-)
Congratulations to Paul and Dave.
[Now that everyone knows what Heypaul looks like, with that photo of him in the article, he will probably be besieged by fanatic railfan autograph seekers wherever he goes!
Fotunately (or is that unfortunately?) for us Subtalkers, this means that he will have to live a life of seclusion, doing nothing but posting from his computer :-)]
Or, he could take a cue from pro athletes and *charge* for his autograph!
03/11/2000
"Or he can take a cue from pro athletes and *charge* for his autograph"
Hey! that's income. Maybe the IRS monitors this site!
Bill Newkirk
Having met Heypaul I can say that he is certainly deserving of the article. Not only does he present himself in a good way but does the same for all of us. Congratulations!!!
-Harry
I would like to extend my congratulations to Heypaul and Dave about getting an article in the Daily News. That is wonderful, and certainly beats my best (a letter to the inquirer).
Likewise. Congrats!
When I read heypaul's post about the New York Daily News article this morning, I thought I had to go to Washington Union Station to buy a copy of Daily News for my personal collection.
When I purchased the newspaper, I was totally surprised that heypaul was posing with his favorite collection-- a motorman's cab. Heypaul looked so cool to me!
By the way, is the cab the BMT D-Type cab?
I think heypaul should buy at least five copies of today's Daily News. He is indeed king of the day today.
Chaohwa
Yo that newspaper article is madd fly. Also my name is Paul too. Is that ur real name??
brand new and shiny !! the r 142s lke the LOS ANGELES RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE......
but with a transverse cab ??? how are transverse cabs so wonderful and superior and THE BEST !!!
motorman Mr ALLEN # 5 DYRE AVE. told me in the cold of WINTER....
the TRANVERSE CAB is murder !! the cold air leaks ..... YOU ALMOST FREEZE TO DEATH !!!
just because sonething is NEW and transverse cab equipped does that make it BETTER ????????
i am glad i have redbird vidieos while they are still here !!!!!!!! the ones i shot of cource !!
The transverse cab is nice and toasty (too toasty in fact in the R46) because there are 2 heaters, one on the right side and one on the left. The R68/68A are ice boxes because there is only one cab heater. Anybody who has seen inside the cab of an R142 can tell us if it has one cab heater or two. I was told this a long time ago: the TA does not care about the comfort of the workers, so dress warmly. If you don't like it, take a promotion and become a boss and get an office! Why transverse cabs? OPTO capability of course. The TA saves big bucks on any line which is OPTO. They save the conductors salary and have to pay the motorman a measly $2.00 extra an hour. The TA originally offered more, the union wanted more than that and some arbitrator didn't meet both sides halfway. I believe the $2.00 per hour is what Chicago pays for their OPTO. Remember: it is all about efficiency and employee productivity.
OK !!! i disagree !! example ; transverse cab ONE PERSON TRANSIT OPERATOR or ( OPTO ).....
and you have like at ATLANTA recently .......
BECAUSE YOU DID NOT HAVE A CONDUCTOR IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TRAIN...........
a woman was dragged almost to her death in ATLANTA !!!!!!
I understand RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEMS ARE CHEAP and want to SAVE MONEY !!!!!!!!
but what about the TRANSIT PUBLIC SAFETY ???????
i believe that the TRANSVERSE FAN CLUB TYPES etc......... OVERLOOK this and other disavantages !
I did not feel SAFE in CHICAGO during my last visit ........
I do feel SAFER ( not for just myself ) WHEN YOU HAVE A CONDUCTOR AND A MOTORMAN
and the railfan window is OPEN !!! at least you can enjoy the ride BETTER !!!
OPTO may work on a trolley with ONE CAR ONLY but thats where the TRANSVERSE CAB....
comes to a dangerous end !! mr ALLEN motorman # 5 dyre avenue told me how he likes how the
REDBIRDS make him more COMFORTABLE than the TRANSVERSE CABS R 62 IRT TYPES etc......
of cource i am an old R-1 thru R -9 fan so what do i know ?????
As a NYCT employee for over 20 years, I am only reporting the facts as I see them. I don't necessarily agree or disgree with what you say or the TA's thinking, but as Celine Dion sings: "And that's the way it is."
A couple of corrections & comments.
First - Transit systems are not cheap. They are very expensive. That's why construction of new lines and expansion of existing lines is so difficult. The people who allocate the funding for mass transit are also not cheap. They have to deal with ever shrinking funding (from the democrats).
Second - OPTO is not desirable on long trains nor is it inherantly unsafe. Yes, it would be better if there were an extra pair of eyes watching the train. It would be better still if there were a conductor for each pair of cars. Unfortunately, for a system to be viable, costs must be cut. This is where transit managers from around the world feel that some of those savings can be gained. It's not a whim so get over it.
Third - The purpose of mass transit is to move large numbers of people efficiently and safely at a reasonable speed with minimal cost. Nowhere has it ever been stated that the purpose of a mass transit system is to entertain or amuse railfans. To achieve operating efficiencies, OPTO dictated the need for transverse cabs. In addition, transverse cabs permit greater efficiencies for train crews even on Non-OPTO trains. Of course, I make this statement despite what Mr. Allen thinks. I'm quite sure that five thousand train operators and conductors are happy that Mr. Allen has spoken for them. However, I don't think that the average subway commuter (who by and large support the farebox) could give less of a damn about railfan windows. I've been subject to your relentless tirade on this topic for the better part of a year now. Time to give it a rest, don't you think?
Fourth - On the keyboard of most computers are three keys. One is a 'shift key' which is bifurcated. One on the right side and one on the left. There is also a 'Cap Lock' key on the left. Why not spend a little time learning to use them properly and make your postings a bit more literate and tollerable.
Fifth - Back to OPTO if you will. You cite the instance where a woman was dragged to her death in Atlanta. You blame this on OPTO. How then do you explain:
1) A woman dragged and killed at Union Turnpike Station when her handbag strap got caught in the door of an R-46. She refused to let go of the bag or was entangled in it. What was the C/R's excuse?
2) A boy in a wheel chair was dragged along the Pacific St. Station platform and killed when he hit a construction barricade at the end of the platform after the bookbag attached to his wheelchair got caugt in the doors of an R-40. What was the C/R doing?
3) A baby carriage got caught in the doors of an F train at Smith 9th St (R-32). The opeator got indication and left the station with the baby carriage & baby outside the train while the frantic mother & another customer held onto the stroller handle until the train reached 4th Avenue. Good thing we had a conductor on that train, right?
Time to move on my friend - There are some things that can be changed. There are others that can not be changed. Wisdom is knowing the difference.
give railfan windows a rest ??? it is ON TOPIC and subject to be discussed ANY TIME !!!!!!!
wisdom is ENJOYING life not hiding behind TRANVERSE CABS and being miserable !!
finally """" moving on to what """"????? i thought r 32s did ont operate at smith / 9 th streets !!!
even transit riders have to use common sense ... first.... second... third...fourth...fith... gee!!! i can count too !!!!
You thought, DUH? Perhaps during the time the R-46s were out for overhaul, there were not enough 46s for full service and R-32s were used in F & G service.
Since technically, there is no such thing as a "railfan window" it's not really on subject but I'll discuss it in the spirit of your postings. The fact is that you have beaten this horse bloody and it still aint gonna run. Transverse cabs are here to stay, at least for the next 30-40 years. I can't suggest a solution for your particular problem other than to become a train operator. Otherwise get a crossword puzzle book.
I suppouse you can count - a little, anyway. However, how about the rules for capitalization. Care to take a stab at them?
see !!!!!! thats what i am talking about !!!! you belong to the TRANSVERSE CAB FAN CLUB ............
admit it you like sitting in the middle of the train loooking like a litle @##$$%%^^^&*())()__+!@ !!!!!!!
right ?????????? i agree with you on ONE THING !! the membership is on the increase !!!!
Better than that, my friend. I get to ride in any tansverse cab on any train any time I want.
are you a motorman employee or operator ?
And this is of course what happens. When worthy discourse of off topic items occurs, then it doens't belong here, yet when this anencaphalic NUISANCE posts he hides behind the veil of being on topic. I offer a vote to ban this menace from this board. He has never contributed anything of substance. His removal will be viewed happily by most participants in this board, who have brains.
Now for the vote: all those in favor of banning Pigs from posting say AYE, those opposed, OINK.
Seriously, if you don't like it, ignore it, and cool your temper. No one's forcing you to read his posts. I don't like the constant ranting about railfan windows either, even though I do my best to ride the first car on a train of Redbirds or R-32s. Any rant gets old VERY quickly, even when you agree with it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't believe anyone should be banned. I just want a KILLFILE! Even if you can only killfile one person.
now thats off topic !!!!
i vote AYE !!
"anencaphalic" Great word and adequate to the occassion.
For those of us who are vocabularically challenged (and since the head pig misspelled it!):
Main Entry: an·en·ceph·a·ly
Pronunciation: "an-(")en-'se-f&-lE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -lies
Etymology: 2a- + encephal- + 2-y
Date: circa 1889
: congenital absence of all or a major part of the brain
- an·en·ce·phal·ic /-"en(t)-s&-'fa-lik/ adjective
From www.m-w.com
Oh, I feel I should also mention that I went to PS 36 on Staten Island, which was torched early this morning. I didn't do it!
-Hank :)
removal on what sound basis ?? mabe his shoud be you instead ??
transverse cabs are on topic pro and against and should and can be posted by anybody !!!
at least i only use ONE handle didnt you once call yourself engenus D train and another handle once ??
talk about a menace and or a nuisanse and your vails many many time s of being off topic !!
have you looked at yourself in a good clear mirror lately ?? and what did you see ???? who are you
to tell who has brains and or not ?? my railfan vidieos have been very popular and well liked and praised !!!
i contribute to this discusion board much more than your friviolus non requests that i be banned with
no basis whatsoever a t all !!! it seems you flew off at the handle before with your two handles before !!
lighten up get a real life and grow up !!!! ask heypaul and many others about my vidieos etc....!!!
recently i shot the L & J train and re shot the # 5 with motorman mr ALLEN you should order this vidieo!!
Hey Salaam Allah, if anyone on this board bothers you anymore I will beat them up for you. By the way, your posts are much better than any assinine post about pigs taking over the world.
jeffrey rosen FREE VIDIEO OF YOUR CHOICE FOR YOU !!! railfan vidieo that is !
e mail me and send me your request !!! pigs stilk and they are nasty ( i dont eat them ) ....
"if anyone on this board bothers you anymore I will beat them up for you."
Watch it Jeff. Mark Green and Slick Al Sharpton will have you pegged as the "Police Brutality Poster Boy" !!!
Not to make ANY comment at all on the situation at hand, but FOX has shown many a time it doesn't take much of a mind to run a video camera.
-Hank
I VOTE THAT HE STAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!
OK !!! i disagree !! example ; transverse cab ONE PERSON TRANSIT OPERATOR or ( OPTO ).....
and you have like at ATLANTA recently .......
BECAUSE YOU DID NOT HAVE A CONDUCTOR IN THE MIDDLE OF THE TRAIN...........
a woman was dragged almost to her death in ATLANTA !!!!!!
I understand RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEMS ARE CHEAP and want to SAVE MONEY !!!!!!!!
but what about the TRANSIT PUBLIC SAFETY ???????
i believe that the TRANSVERSE FAN CLUB TYPES etc......... OVERLOOK this and other disavantages !
I did not feel SAFE in CHICAGO during my last visit ........
I do feel SAFER ( not for just myself ) WHEN YOU HAVE A CONDUCTOR AND A MOTORMAN
and the railfan window is OPEN !!! at least you can enjoy the ride BETTER !!!
OPTO may work on a trolley with ONE CAR ONLY but thats where the TRANSVERSE CAB....
comes to a dangerous end !! mr ALLEN motorman # 5 dyre avenue told me how he likes how the
REDBIRDS make him more COMFORTABLE than the TRANSVERSE CABS R 62 IRT TYPES etc......
of cource i am an old R-1 thru R -9 fan so what do i know ?????
As a NYCT employee for over 20 years, I am only reporting the facts as I see them. I don't necessarily agree or disgree with what you say or the TA's thinking, but as Celine Dion sings: "And that's the way it is."
A couple of corrections & comments.
First - Transit systems are not cheap. They are very expensive. That's why construction of new lines and expansion of existing lines is so difficult. The people who allocate the funding for mass transit are also not cheap. They have to deal with ever shrinking funding (from the democrats).
Second - OPTO is not desirable on long trains nor is it inherantly unsafe. Yes, it would be better if there were an extra pair of eyes watching the train. It would be better still if there were a conductor for each pair of cars. Unfortunately, for a system to be viable, costs must be cut. This is where transit managers from around the world feel that some of those savings can be gained. It's not a whim so get over it.
Third - The purpose of mass transit is to move large numbers of people efficiently and safely at a reasonable speed with minimal cost. Nowhere has it ever been stated that the purpose of a mass transit system is to entertain or amuse railfans. To achieve operating efficiencies, OPTO dictated the need for transverse cabs. In addition, transverse cabs permit greater efficiencies for train crews even on Non-OPTO trains. Of course, I make this statement despite what Mr. Allen thinks. I'm quite sure that five thousand train operators and conductors are happy that Mr. Allen has spoken for them. However, I don't think that the average subway commuter (who by and large support the farebox) could give less of a damn about railfan windows. I've been subject to your relentless tirade on this topic for the better part of a year now. Time to give it a rest, don't you think?
Fourth - On the keyboard of most computers are three keys. One is a 'shift key' which is bifurcated. One on the right side and one on the left. There is also a 'Cap Lock' key on the left. Why not spend a little time learning to use them properly and make your postings a bit more literate and tollerable.
Fifth - Back to OPTO if you will. You cite the instance where a woman was dragged to her death in Atlanta. You blame this on OPTO. How then do you explain:
1) A woman dragged and killed at Union Turnpike Station when her handbag strap got caught in the door of an R-46. She refused to let go of the bag or was entangled in it. What was the C/R's excuse?
2) A boy in a wheel chair was dragged along the Pacific St. Station platform and killed when he hit a construction barricade at the end of the platform after the bookbag attached to his wheelchair got caugt in the doors of an R-40. What was the C/R doing?
3) A baby carriage got caught in the doors of an F train at Smith 9th St (R-32). The opeator got indication and left the station with the baby carriage & baby outside the train while the frantic mother & another customer held onto the stroller handle until the train reached 4th Avenue. Good thing we had a conductor on that train, right?
Time to move on my friend - There are some things that can be changed. There are others that can not be changed. Wisdom is knowing the difference.
give railfan windows a rest ??? it is ON TOPIC and subject to be discussed ANY TIME !!!!!!!
wisdom is ENJOYING life not hiding behind TRANVERSE CABS and being miserable !!
finally """" moving on to what """"????? i thought r 32s did ont operate at smith / 9 th streets !!!
even transit riders have to use common sense ... first.... second... third...fourth...fith... gee!!! i can count too !!!!
You thought, DUH? Perhaps during the time the R-46s were out for overhaul, there were not enough 46s for full service and R-32s were used in F & G service.
Since technically, there is no such thing as a "railfan window" it's not really on subject but I'll discuss it in the spirit of your postings. The fact is that you have beaten this horse bloody and it still aint gonna run. Transverse cabs are here to stay, at least for the next 30-40 years. I can't suggest a solution for your particular problem other than to become a train operator. Otherwise get a crossword puzzle book.
I suppouse you can count - a little, anyway. However, how about the rules for capitalization. Care to take a stab at them?
see !!!!!! thats what i am talking about !!!! you belong to the TRANSVERSE CAB FAN CLUB ............
admit it you like sitting in the middle of the train loooking like a litle @##$$%%^^^&*())()__+!@ !!!!!!!
right ?????????? i agree with you on ONE THING !! the membership is on the increase !!!!
Better than that, my friend. I get to ride in any tansverse cab on any train any time I want.
are you a motorman employee or operator ?
And this is of course what happens. When worthy discourse of off topic items occurs, then it doens't belong here, yet when this anencaphalic NUISANCE posts he hides behind the veil of being on topic. I offer a vote to ban this menace from this board. He has never contributed anything of substance. His removal will be viewed happily by most participants in this board, who have brains.
Now for the vote: all those in favor of banning Pigs from posting say AYE, those opposed, OINK.
Seriously, if you don't like it, ignore it, and cool your temper. No one's forcing you to read his posts. I don't like the constant ranting about railfan windows either, even though I do my best to ride the first car on a train of Redbirds or R-32s. Any rant gets old VERY quickly, even when you agree with it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't believe anyone should be banned. I just want a KILLFILE! Even if you can only killfile one person.
now thats off topic !!!!
i vote AYE !!
"anencaphalic" Great word and adequate to the occassion.
For those of us who are vocabularically challenged (and since the head pig misspelled it!):
Main Entry: an·en·ceph·a·ly
Pronunciation: "an-(")en-'se-f&-lE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -lies
Etymology: 2a- + encephal- + 2-y
Date: circa 1889
: congenital absence of all or a major part of the brain
- an·en·ce·phal·ic /-"en(t)-s&-'fa-lik/ adjective
From www.m-w.com
Oh, I feel I should also mention that I went to PS 36 on Staten Island, which was torched early this morning. I didn't do it!
-Hank :)
removal on what sound basis ?? mabe his shoud be you instead ??
transverse cabs are on topic pro and against and should and can be posted by anybody !!!
at least i only use ONE handle didnt you once call yourself engenus D train and another handle once ??
talk about a menace and or a nuisanse and your vails many many time s of being off topic !!
have you looked at yourself in a good clear mirror lately ?? and what did you see ???? who are you
to tell who has brains and or not ?? my railfan vidieos have been very popular and well liked and praised !!!
i contribute to this discusion board much more than your friviolus non requests that i be banned with
no basis whatsoever a t all !!! it seems you flew off at the handle before with your two handles before !!
lighten up get a real life and grow up !!!! ask heypaul and many others about my vidieos etc....!!!
recently i shot the L & J train and re shot the # 5 with motorman mr ALLEN you should order this vidieo!!
Hey Salaam Allah, if anyone on this board bothers you anymore I will beat them up for you. By the way, your posts are much better than any assinine post about pigs taking over the world.
jeffrey rosen FREE VIDIEO OF YOUR CHOICE FOR YOU !!! railfan vidieo that is !
e mail me and send me your request !!! pigs stilk and they are nasty ( i dont eat them ) ....
"if anyone on this board bothers you anymore I will beat them up for you."
Watch it Jeff. Mark Green and Slick Al Sharpton will have you pegged as the "Police Brutality Poster Boy" !!!
Not to make ANY comment at all on the situation at hand, but FOX has shown many a time it doesn't take much of a mind to run a video camera.
-Hank
I VOTE THAT HE STAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your right the R62A's are Ice Boxes. I was praying for a Redbird in the Middle of winter
Why couldn't they place heaters on both sides like they did on the R-46 cars? That would solve the problem. I am comfortable in the R-46 cars in the winter, especially when it is cold out. The heat is great! Whoever designed the R62's and 68's probably sits in a warm office and never even rode a train of any kind. In the summer, the A/C blows on your head. If you close the vent, you roast. If you open it, you have it blowing on your head and neck- and get a stiff neck. Plain stupidity of the designers. Hopefully, they didn't make the same mistake in the R- 142's and 143's. The seats also cause bad backs in the 62 's and 68's. No back support. They want us to stand anyway, so this is probably the reason for these joke of a seat!
You think Motorman's cabs are bad? Try driving one of those little 3-wheel Cushman Police Scooters in extreme weather!!
I'll take your word for it....
-Hank
I had read in the paper a little while ago they wanted to phase out those 3 wheel scooters and start introducing 2 door Chevy (formerly Geo) Metros in their place.
Did that actually start to happen or did that plan fail? I remember the article mentioning that the NYPD would start using jeeps instead of police cars in the future.
The have Ford Explorers and Expiditions running. I remember one time they had police motorcycle cops. Dont see them anymore. What happened?
I remember one time they had police motorcycle cops. Dont see them anymore. What happened?
They still have them.
The R62 cab includes a large area that was once passenger space. There is an HVAC vent on the left side of the cab, right over where those seats would be.
-Hank
yea !!!! but how do the REDBIRDS operate !!! ?????
I was on a REDBIRD 2 on thursday and noticed a nuber of little box's attached to the ceiling. On my way off the car I looked up at one and it was a small video camra.
PS. None of the windows on the car were scratched.
is this a test of a grafiti fighting tactic.
DON't KNOW THE CAR # but it was a car with a conductor closer to the front of train
I'm glad you didn't post the car number. We don't want it publicized so the bad guys will know. I'm sure that after any damage is done and the cuplrits are caught, the car is repaired to give the next hoodlum a fresh, clean blackboard to write on and any scratching done by the culprit has the evidence right there.
heres what makes me sick HOW THEY SCRATCH UP THE WINDOWS ( not just the railfan window )
IT REALLY LOOKS BAD DOSENT IT ?????
( even in the subway graffatti days they left the windows alone )
THOSE CHEAP LITTLE VANDALS SHOULD BE GIVEN SLAVE LABOR IN THE TRANSIT SYSTEM !!
finally it is hard trying to shoot a railfan vidieo with the WINDOW ALL SCRATCHED UP !!!!!
( dont tell where the camera is i would not either !!!!!! ) ...........
03/11/2000
Salaamallah,
They scratch the windows with keys, a screwdriver, a knife, anything with a sharp point.
Bill Newkirk
I KNOW !!! they do the SAME THING here in lost angeles with buses and rail too !!!
even in phoenix arizona the BUSES windows all scratched up !!!
last time i voisited the ATLANTA MARTA SYSTEM windows were scratched up there too !!!!!!!!
how do they keep scratches off of the NEW YORK BUSES ??????
very nice and clean !!!! it sure is A WASTED EFFORT isnt it MR. NEWKIRK !!!!!
sure hope they catch these TOTAL IDIOTS dont you ?????
>>>how do they keep scratches off of the NEW YORK BUSES ??????<<<
Busses in NYC have a "scaraficial" layer of plastic that is peeled off and replaced if it gets scrathed up. They have not yet applied this technology to subway cars.
PEACE,
Andee
unless your a railfan you would not notice them. I am wondering why they installed them on redbirds if they are going to be scraped soon.
PS. hope they are wiring some stations too... I get on at AVE U on the bighton and the same area's have wet paint signs on them a couple of times a week
I am interested in obtaining a sign from the front of a D-Train, or if that's not possible, a photo of a D-Train. Please let me know if you have one to sell, or know where I might obtain one.
Please e-mail me at Chicken334@aol.com.
Thank you.
03/11/2000
CHICKEN334?
Maybe you can ask PIGS of Royal Island. And meet at Boston Market!
Bill Newkirk
BOOOO!!!! HISSSS!!!!!
-Hank :)
Depeds what you are looking for?
Looking for photos of oncoming trains with the D sign (older or newer) prominent.
Or, looking for either an old-stle or new-style sign from the front of a train with the big D.
There are numerous photos of D trains in the car-by-car section of various equipment through the years, including R-1/9s, R-27/30s (including one signed up as a DD), R-32s, R-42s, and even R-10s.
Plenty of pics on this web site.
First, way to go heypaul!
Now...
I was shopping at my local BJ's Wholesale Club earlier today, and
there was an AMTRAK police officer manning an "Operations Lifesaver"
table, so as to educate people to stay away from the tracks on the
NEC main line with all the new "quiet" electric trains moving
at high speed.
I asked him if he's heard any rumors about the start-up of Acela
Express (3-hour) serivce, and I was amazed that he mentioned the
same thing I had heard from a well-placed source just the other
day: The trainsets may be available by mid-year, but it is possible
they will begin service only on the NYC-WAS segment, displacing
the metroliners. NYC-BOS service may be delayed further, to 2001,
so that electrical work can be completed. AGAIN -- This is an
unconfirmed rumor, but one I've now heard twice in a week.
(So that electrical work could be completed)
I thought it was completed.
No, the wire is still unfinished on one of the tracks in a number of places, necessitating wrong-railing on some runs. There is still a lot to go in/near the Southampton Yard at South Station.
d'oh!
I suppose using the new trainsets south of NY only would still free up some electric engines so that more Acela Regional trains could be run, but that's small consolation for everyone waiting for *real* high-speed service to Boston.
hey folks--- so many of you have expressed your good feelings about the articles, that i want to thank you all--- i considered responding to each post individually on this message board--- if i did it that way this board would be plastered with heypaul titles messages, and i know of 3 people who would become sick to their stomachs--- so instead a big thank you to andee, bob anderson, chris r-16, chris rivera, chao-hwa, bill, subwayman, j.lee, kevin, peter, harry b, isaac, and brighton beach bob,nyc transit, and the thousands of others who have too much self respect to be seen speaking with me in public....
to answer a couple of questions--
chao-hwa-- so far i have bought 40 copies of the paper--- the cab is of the ind r-1/9 variety
subwayman--- my earth name is paul--- i am from another planet, and we are experimenting on subtalk with methods to demoralize earthlings and piglings
peter--- how did you know that i was with my agent today figuring out ways to exploit my fame--- we are going to have lunch with companies to put out heypaul virtual reality designer glasses, heypaul frozen dinners for single railfans, heypaul railfan window spray cleaner, 5000 of heypaul's most idiotic postings here on subtalk, heypaul metrocard, an afternoon heypaul comedy hour on channel 11 featuring the three stooges and abbott and costello,
and a daily movie hosted by heypaul showing such great movies as the caine mutiny, in the heat of the night, the china syndrone, remains of the day, and heypaul, abbott and costello and moe larry and curley meets frankenstein...
i was interested to see the concern about stereotyping of railfans--- the statement that a lot of railfans are single males was made by the author of 722 miles--- i am single, never married, although i can say that i have been divorced from reality for most of my life...
some of us cringe from the railfan who is too far out, too introverted, too much of nerd, too lacking of a life, too intense, too little like us normal folk...
i cringe at the railfans who takes themmselves and their knowledge so damn seriously---
i just hope we can have some fun here and try to get a better understanding of ourselves and our interests....
i agree with you........... on those PIGS !!!!!! right on heypaul !!! to sutalkers heypaul is a nice guy.....
if you give him a chance !!!! its up to you !!!!
Clarification: Pigs are Earthlings, there is no such planet as pigs.
Has anyone figured out how to read the Penn Station ceiling clock? The one at the 7th Ave end, near the IRT.
It was designed by Maya Lin, she of the DC Vietnam Veterans Memorial.
ww.forgotten-ny.com
It's been a while since I've looked at it, but from what I remember ...
The circle moves back and forth in front of the light on a 24-hour cycle, with the resulting shadow's edge hitting the tick marks for 1-12 once in each direction. I don't know if this is the case, but it would make sense to me if the light is completely eclipsed at 12 midnight, and completely visible at 12 noon. Anyway, if it's 1:15, you'll see that if you read the numbers in one direction the shadow edge will be a quarter of the way between 1 and 2. To figure out which direction you should be reading the numbers, you can watch for a few minutes as the shadow moves, or you can look at your watch (or use your knowledge of whether it's day or night outside) and choose appropriately.
I don't believe the clock is adjusted for daylight savings, so when that starts you'll have to add an hour to whatever the clock reads to get EDT.
I'll check it out...
The plaque on the column next to the clock tells you how to read it, if I remember correctly.
--Mike
The movie shoot, originally set for February, was finally done last night. The car had to be cleaned, and Lou from Brooklyn arrived early in the day to begin the cleaning process. I joined him later in the day, and we began to move the car out of the barn. For those of you who have never seen this process, it is rather amazing. There is no overhead wire on the end of the shop, allowing us to work on the roof. To move the car, we place a hook on the wire above the track in front of us, and place the other end of the wire on the pole (attached with a vice grip). One motorman in the cab (me), one person on the front pulling in the wire (Lou), and we slowly pull the car up until it is possible to place the pole on the wire.
Needless to say, nothing ever works as well as designed. We came to within two feet of our goal when the wire decided to come loose from the pole. Of course, it hit the rail when it fell, and we shorted out all line power. Once reset, we managed to get the car out, and finish cleaning the steel dust off the seats.
At about 5:15 the movie crew arrived. They set up cameras and lights, and placed a generator on the platform outside the #2 end storm door to power their lights and equipment. After dark, they began to film, and we had to take a number of trips down the line. They did ask Lou to be an extra, but he was too busy as part of the crew. So, our museum Director, George Boucher, acted as an extra. I think he looked great in make-up, and should consider wearing some when he plays Santa during December.
All went well, and filming wrapped up about 9:00. I will let Lou comment on the filming, since he had a chance to watch a great deal of it. Too bad that Lou didn't become an extra. I think he blew at least a Golden Globe award for most "interesting" newcomer.
03/11/2000
Lou Shavell,
WAIT!! I know how this turned out even though I wasn't there.
The cameras started rolling, the actors spoke their lines, #6688 moved slowly. Then on cue, the ceiling fans were turned on and the unremoved steel dust filled the car causing the actors to cough!
CUT!........PRINT IT!..........It's in the can!
Bill Newkirk
HA! Good one. This is enough to make any one's day.
-Stef
Thank you Lou S. for a great intro.
Blowing the line breaker (droping power on the whole length of the line)was an eye opener too bad Stef could not join us since he is always worried about that type of stuff. >G<
Lou, you forgot to post on how you operated the car that evening. You must have been the happiest motorman of a subway car that does not have a full width cab (less than R44?). Because the "movie crew" radios were not set to the BERA frequency, the DIRECTOR insitied that one of his crew control the movements of 6688. The director would call "roll film, roll train" his assitant would call over their radio SO Lou had to squeez into the cab (coffin) with this lovely young lady everytime we moved the car for a "take". I wondered why when we were turning the pole he had this wide grin each and every time he came out of the cab.
As to the shoot, don't want to break any confedentiality but they set up one camera with two lights mid car shooting back to the non-operating end. We had "talent" (actors) sitting in the car, one man dressed nice biz attire, a lady in fish net stockings very revealing and some extras (George Boucher). Basicly the shoot went with a short pull into the high platform, I open the doors (off camera in the non operating cab) two "thugs" get on, I close the door quickly and off we fly down the line. This take took about 7 times until they liked it. Some more shots while the car is moving for the rocking then they reversed the camera for the opposite angle shots.
The last run they shut of the generator (boy was it loud) for the sound recording. "QUIET ON THE SET". They had to recorded the squeels, the people walking by and one of the thugs hitting the newspaper and yes the door sounds.
It was well worth the extra work cleaning up the car to see this, how it was shot and the way the director worked looking through the camera and at a small TV (monitor). My first real experience in observing a movie shoot and all the questions from the movie crew "this is a real subway car?".
I wish I had been here to see this. Lou S. must have had an "up" kind of day riding with the young lady. We could sure use a transverse cab right about now. I sure hope he didn't get into trouble with the Mrs... The wire got loose from the car? Oh geez! I'm glad I wasn't there, I would've headed for the hills like the road runner.
All kidding aside, I'm glad this went well. Walking into the car and seeing how spotless it was, made me very emotional. I was so touched, that the car stayed that way the entire time I was working. I didn't even put our work equipment back!!!
Cheers,
Stef
I'm glad to see you folks had a great time. I'm only sorry I couldn't make it.
You set the signs for the 7th Av Express???? Eeek! Say it ain't so!!!! I set the signs back to the traditional Lex Av Exp while I was in the shop working on it. Hehehe. When do you know that I would become so picky about signage?
-Stef
The "Director" needed 7th Ave, there were going there next (14th St) to film station shots. I saw how quickly you got her back to green signs....
It's only obvious, movies will be shot in NYC. Some will be period, therfore when retirement comes for the verious types, at least eight of the very bestof type must be retired first to the not for profit railfans movie lease society. Some may need more to reflect the the many paint schemes. Maybe some can come for current Yellar Boyds?
Please jump in with your wish list. Nay sayers are welcome to,because I know your watching.
avid
Do you ever sign up 6688 as a Lexington Ave. local? After all, that's where it and its sister R-17s made their debut.
Well no. The signage is done the way the project's leader sees it. For the Redbird Scheme though, the 5,7, and Shuttle designations are the most valid.
-Stef
How does 1689 figure in terms of signage? Eddie told me in 1980 that he varied the signs from time to time. When I saw 1689 for the first time, all of its signs were set differently. During the trolley fest on August 16 of that year, one end was set to F-Coney Island while the other end said A-Wash. Hts 207th St. One side signbox was signed up for the GG. Don't remember what the other side said. Two weeks later, one of its ends was signed as D-Coney Island. During subsequent vists, all of its signs would all be set for the same route.
Right now, the car is designated as the D, 205th St to Coney Island. On a separate note, I may assist Jeff H, in installing a conduit to replace the wire hanging on the side of the car this weekend. It's ugly and it's warn. Time to move the 600 volt wire to the inside!
Of course, the signs may change every so often.
-Stef
Wire is run from the roof to just under the truck but is temporarly secured. The car is to heavy to put over the pit to do the splice. Jeff thinks we can use the Quarry Trestle to get under the truck for him to splice but for the first time in a long while there is water running under it (normal Brandford Luck).
I better stop, I was supposed to let BMTMan post about his faviorte car and he did most of the work as well....
I thought it was a "midnight movie" they were shooting? Something like, "Debbie Does It On the #7 Line"?
Maybe I was wrong.....
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
HAHAHAHA!!!!!!
-Stef
Wow and think of the rates we chared for this "hotel" at $100 an hour.... This ain't your Commack Motor Inn you know.
If you like the SubTalk gang, but feel tempted to talk about things other than "rail transit worldwide" from time to time, Cmon over, "Pigs" has provided uis with a forum to voice our opinions on other subjects without clogging up Dave P's bandwidth AND IT WORKS.
Maybe this was covered in another posting, but what's the URL for this new forum?
-- David
Chicago, IL
here's the starting off point---
www.egroups.com/group/offsubtalk/info.html
or
offsubtalk
And let's get on with the program and get more of you guys on. I'm just itching to get at you Hillary and Al the Bore fans.
I don't know about you subway buff's but I like the redbirds alot more than the R-142. I think the R-17,21,22,26,28,29,33&36's have more charecter,like the different sounds and noise that they made.
Also you could stand on the front door and see,now on the newer cars
you can't.
Going to miss seeing the redbird fleet getting retierd I grew up watching them. WhenI lived in the bronx I used to live by the #4 line and took my dads binoculers and watch the trains late at night. What I really like the most is the loud screehing and the electric arc givin off by going through a switch track or through a curve for some reason all the older cars do this the best
Just stand at the west end of the southbound platform at Mott Avenue (149th-Grand Concourse on the #2/#5) and wait for the northbound #5 to make its appearance - THEN you will truly hear a Redbird sing.
If you think the Redbirds make noise - the ones that made the absolute MOST noise were the R21s and R22s, ESPECIALLY the R21s. A #5 train full of those beasts squealing its way into Mott Avenue could loosen crowns and knock out fillings. I remember standing on the crosswalk there (back in the '80s before they closed it) and watching a #5 train of R21s do its slow crawl around the curve - DEAFENING and delightful.
Wayne
Loudest squeal I heard was S curve on #2/5 line at between 180thST and west farms stations
For a truely bizzare experiance, you should have taken the New haven line when the Peck bridge in Bridgeport was being replaced. They have a subway-like "runaround" to route traffic around the construction area. The turn was a 15mph turn , but one MN engineerr told me the other day that when it opened, most wouldn't take it fgaster than 10 - it was THAT tight.
It sure was weird looking down an m-2 and seeing open air at the end. Or looking outsifde and seeing the end of your train!
Do not know to much about metro north or L.I.R.R lines but their is a sharp S curve along the J line it was on the news people complaining about the noise the trains make going through the S curve
Curve's been there for over 100 years. If they don't like it, they shouldn't have moved in there.
-Hank
That curve has been muted for the most part after the tracks were replaced in the mid 1980's and the R16's were retired. The old tracks plus those old cars made for some serious noise.
To the guy who asked about LIRR or Metro-North. I don't know anything much about Metro-North because I never rode Metro-North before. However, on Many LIRR lines such as Far Rockaway and Long Beach, before arriving at the Locust manor or Laurelton stations, There are curves. However those M-3 and M-1 Commuter cars, All the Engineer does is put the Train into Coast.(what I call neutral). The M-3's can handle curves very well. The Same for the Diesels. However, the one annoying thing is the Bi-Level coaches take offs are slow. Also, do u know what Test ASC means? Also, if U ever rode the Montauk line, Far Rockaway line or Anything that goes by the Valley Stream station, it must make a Huge right at Jamaica, cause they don't use the main line (Hollis, Queens Village, New Hyde Park, etc) I am aware that is the incorrect order but I am not listing all the stations.
Ah, but there you have the open air to dissipate the noise to some extent. In a tunnel, all you get is feedback as the noise bounces off the walls and echoes around in the station. Much worse underground than outdoors.
Very severe "S" curve on the northbound "L" train just after Sutter Avenue. It's on an elevated structure and even so the trains make a hideous racket, especially the R40s.
Wayne
I remember that. When those R21/22 cars got to East Tremont Ave, the screeching around the curve north of East Tremont Ave. was loud enough to scare the zebras in the zoo!
Been there many times recently - the R26 and R28 seem to be guilty of the worst noise there, especially on the tighter northbound turn. The second curve (the one towards 180th) isn't quite as severe.
Another noisy stretch is on the #6, between Cypress and East 143rd Street.
Wayne
True, but the R142 will be quieter, it wont rust, it will be air conditioned and it will be much more mechanically reliable. For the average rider, the R142 will be better than any of those other cars.
this month's show will be this friday evening mar 17
at the college of insurance building 101 murray
street-- doors open 6:15pm, and meeting begins 7:15
it will be a slide show presented by bill
armstrong--- he attended his first era meeting on
march 17,1950 which is exactly 50 years ago---he
will present a black and white slide show of the new
york transit scene from 1949-53 including:
brooklyn street cars
long gone elevated lines (that the sarge is still
trying to find the remains of )
other rapid transit views
queensborough bridge railway
yonkers and mount vernon street cars
staten island rapid transit
public service essex division lines
a sprinkling of buses and trolley coaches
if time permits:
some philly, atlantic city, and allentown traction
action
unfortunately no r-44's.46's,62's,68's,110's,142's,
but there will be shots of
NIAGARA FALLS
heypaul in 1st grade at ps 254
Sorry will miss it, it is St. Pat's you know. Will be at the in-laws for cornedbeef (wife is 100% Irish and has the temper to prove it).
Please no jokes about a 6 pack but I have to get up early the next morning anyway.
Want to hear noise? then stand in the end of the station platform of Grand Central on the Lex. Ave. trains and you will hear the wheels squiqing. I also like to stand at the other end that would be south bound on the Exp.track and see the trains leave the station as they pick up speed. Another good spot is in the south end of the 149 st. Grand concourse in the bronx, when the #5 is coming in the station.
per official bulletin here is the list of stations for this card. I will GROUP stations. Note that since the bulletin says "English Version" I am of the **opinion** that a foreign language version might follow-when I see such a bulletin I will post.
English version goes no sale at 7am on 03/20/2000
THE STATIONS
49-N,R
Chambers/ Brooklyn Bridge-J/M/Z,4,5,6
Broad-J,M,Z
Ave J and Av M- D
Brighton Beach-D,Q
Union-N,R
Prospect- N,R
77 --R
86--R
8 av Brooklyn-N
9 Av- B
Ft Hamilton Pkwy- B,F
50-B,C,E,1,9
55-B
71-B
79-B
18av-B
20Av-B
Bay Pwky-B
25av-B
Bay50-B
Stillwell-B,D,F,N
Bedford-L
Rockaway Pkwy-L
Fushing-J,M
Myrtle-J,M
Halsey-J
Knickerbocker-M
Seneca-M
Forest-M
Fresh Pond-M
Metropolitan-M
23-C,E
Clinton-Washington-A,G
7av-B,D,E
5av-E,F
Fulton-G
15th/Prospect Park-F
28-1,9
103-1,9
225 to 242--1,9
Woodlawn-4
30thav-N
Astoria Blvd-N
Ditmars-N
82-7
90-7
Hoyt-2,3
Eastern Pkwy-2,3
Church-2
Beverly -2
Newkirk-2
Flatbush-2
NOTE: Part-time booths on these stations should get cards from the full-time booth on their station. If they dont please get the card from the 24hr booth(s)/ main booth(s) at the station.
On the G line when they run 6 cars they use a 4 car linked set and tywo seperate A cars such as 6026 and 6028( actually seen on G).
The next week I saw these same cars (6026 and 6028) back with their family (4 car linked set on the F).
Is this common practice of separating and rejoining linked quads?
BTW- I did not see the balance of the quad on the G during the stay of 6026 and 6028 on the G.
Actually, it was 6226 and 6228 that you saw on the G line. There are 14 2-car R-46 units. One is an A-B mix #s 6206-6207. The rest are A-A units beginning with 6208-6210 continuing through 6256-6258.
Um, he **did** state that he saw #6026 and #6028 (those two cars, same numbers) back with 6027 and 6029 on the F.
Now, I wonder what he said is possible on the linked R46s.
I respect the beliefs of my co-worker. Therefore I must have been wrong.My Colleague is knowledgeable and would not tell falsities.
Forgive me. I skipped over the critical part of the question with my hasty answer. 4-car linked R-46s are NEVER seperated to make a 2-car A-A unit for service. It is far too labor intensive to do it. If there were not an available A-A unit to make a 6-car G train, a 10 car R-32 would be used in G service instead. For operational reasons an 8-car R-46 would not be used in G service although it is 600 feet long as is the 10 car R-32 consist. So with all due respect to my co-workers' statement, the car numbers, as reported, must have been incorrect.
Why not use an eight car R/32?
avid
6 R-46s are 450 feet long and 8 R-32s are 480 feet long so this would make perfect sense. However, this is a decision based on operational considerations. Simply put, crews become acustomed to operating equipment in certain configurations. If 8 car R-46s were used, there would be too many instances of operators stopping at the 8-Car mark (where 6 car R-46s stop) thus leaving the rear of the train in the tunnel. This is why 8 car R-46s are not used. The converse might be true of the R-32s although they would simply stop long. The other consideration is that when the cars are required back on the E line, the two cars removed for G service would need to be re-added. These moves take time and cost money.
What happened to all the "spare B's" ? Are the just sitting idle or just don,T exist? I always thought that the came in pairs, odd ,even and a & b.
There were two groups of R-46s. The bulk of the cars were 2 car A-B sets while the last few cars delivered were A-A sets which allowed six car trains and swap-uots of A cars which are more likely to require maintenance. When the cars were linked into A-B-B-A sets, there were two extra cars which remained an A-B. The A-A sets remained A-A.
Effective March 20 the train from oyster bay the leaves glen head at 601am and the train that leves penn at 610 and arrives at glen head at 711 will be through meaning the DMs are finally going to be used for what they were meant for because they are already on the line used as diesels
I've noticed that the 6:10 has already been a Dual Mode originating from Penn many nights (although it isn't reflected in schedule).
Occasionally, though, there is a late announcement that a traditional electric will be used and passengers have to change at Jamaica.
Chuck
Thats the Bomb. One thing though. Will all the Diesel lines get the Dual modes? Also, Can someone tell me what happened to the FL-9's that used to be The 5:44 that left Port Jefferson, reached Jamaica at 7:00 and left at 7:05. Usually it goes express to New York from Track one. But now that same Train has DM30AC's and they are dual mode. I haven't seen the FL-9's since November. Anyway, does the Montauk have any Dual modes? Also, Do the Dual modes always go express or do they stop at Kew Gardens, Forest hills and Woodside? Also, do they run Weekdays only?
Looking at the new schedules on the LIRR website, it doesn't appear that there are many new dual modes coming in with the new schedule.
Still only 4 westbound in the AM (5:44 Port Jeff, 5:48 Oyster Bay, 6:11 Speonk, 7:35 Port Jeff) and 4 eastbound in the PM (4:19 Port Jeff, 4:49 Port Jeff, 5:10 Speonk, 6:10 Oyster Bay). I believe that all of the above have been either on the schedule already or opearting in "stealth dual mode" service for a few months.
No scheduled dual modes on the weekend as far as I can tell.
I'll see if I can find any other interesting schedule tid-bits when I pick up the new schedules this week at Penn.
Question -- How many DM locos did the LIRR purchase? Is it possible that they can only run 4 trains each way (since they need a pair of DM engines per train)?
Chuck
I was on the DM to OB friday. Boy was *I* surprised to see "Oyster Bay" up on the board!
Observations:
The trains do a number on your ears through the tunnels.
Acceleration in electric mode is, well, typical electric.
Acceleration in diesel mode is, well, typical diesel. They seem to be almost as fast as the electrics till they hit 30 or so, at which point they fall flat on their faces.
The locomotives have damm noisy traction motors.
The switch over was near Mineola, and noticeable - the train was quiet and fast, and suddenly became nosier and noticeable slower.
The ride is smoother in diesel mode, though.
As for reliability? I've yet to get stuck on a DM, though I've heard they aren't doing well.
Do I think it's a good thing? Yes, albeit it's way way late. Do I think it'll put off the eventual electrification beyond Huntington, East Wiliston and Babylon. No. I think in the end, the high maintenace costs involved with DMs, plus the slow service, plus noise and pollution issues will do them in. NJT already has opted for electrification over DMs on one of their lines (for those reasons)
Which NJT line is that?
03/13/2000
I must make a prediction. When that third layover track west of Mineola is complete, because it doesn't look so, Dual modes may be running on weekends. Why? Weekend Oyster Bay service calls for diesels and bi-levels to terminate at Jamaica. It was planned for these new trainsets to terminate at Mineola and passengers transfer for an M-1/3 to Jamaica and New York. The trainsets are supposed to lay over on the new layover track instead of running light to Jamaica as was done a few years ago. The new diesels are LOUD when idleing and the local residents would howl at that. So use of the Dual Modes which are quieter may keep the locals happy, but don't hold your breath!
Bill Newkirk
The FL9's with their C1 cars are out of service. For about a month they were laid up near Richmond Hill in tact. One day, I saw the 2 FL9's laid up in the yard back to back in the distance. Naturally their C1's were laid up in the coach part of the yard awaiting their fate (they are up for sale). I heard MN does not want those FL9's back. LIRR is known for lousy maintance and MN isn't. MN would be afraid to use those engines!
There are things in which I do not like about the R-142. First the poles in the middle or the cars are gone which is a really stupid move. When you are on a packed 5,4,2 train what are you going to grab onto? Another person? Second the cars are light so that might be a bad thing if an R-142 got into an accident! Third the overhead sign is in red. So a 4 coming in... with a red overhead sign will confuse passengers. Even though it has good points. One more point the top speed of the car is 62 miles per hour. What is that? An R-40 can do 80 w/ extra voltage. The R-62 can mock the R-142, so can the R-33/36 when it comes to speed. It looks like the designers went for how good the cars looks instead of passenger comfort (the seats are comfortable) and safety. I am sorry for bringing on the bad things before it even goes into service. I might be the party pooper.
Christopher Rivera
The reason for speeds no higher than 62mph is that back in the '70's
when the R46's were tested on the LIRR' the cars were built for speeds of 80 mph. The speeds are found no where in the subway system,
maximum speed at best is 50 mph. They were operated at 65 mph with the
new regulated speed control mode in passenger service. After a rear end collision at fifth avenue and 53rd street this was stopped.
It was found that the signal system was not able to provied protection
at speeds in excess of 50 mph. The regulated operating mode was deactivated after this collision.
I've been on the R train and I saw it reach 52 mph between Queens Plaza and 59th St and Lex Ave.
R36Gary
I was on an N train of slant-40's between Lex and Queensboro Plaza. At the highest, the speed was 59 mph.
...After a rear end collision at fifth avenue and 53rd street this was stopped. It was found that the signal system was not able to provied protection at speeds in excess of 50 mph...
Would not an alternative interpretation be that the brakes were NOT sufficiently strong on the R46's. All that is necessary to guarantee that an existing block system will provide protection at higher speed is that the brakes stop the train in the same distance as a design limit for the lower speed.
To assure this it is necessary that the ratio of the braking rates vary as the square of the ratio of the train velocities. Thus, raising the maximum speed from 50 to 65 mph requires that the braking rate be increased by 70%. The system will operate safely with 50 mph and a 1.5 mph/s braking rate. If the braking rate were increased to 2.6 mph/s then there would be NO safety issue. BTW, the braking rate for the Multi's was 3.5 mph/s.
The r-142 seems to be a great fleet...
...for us redbird fans to take a big
snazzy new york style poop on.
-Triumph
Like your style
80, where are you going to get the extra voltage? How do you know these cars can't do that with extra voltage? get real! These speeds are impossible in the subway. Do you see your beloved redbirds even getting up to 60? NO!
And the goal of a transit system is to PREVENT accidents, not make them softer. Besides, a heavier car will cause more damage, and just because the car is lighter, doesn't make it more brittle.
If they took appearance over comfort as you say, then why do you say their seats are comfortable?
And as for the pole thing, there is a bar running down the center of the train, a change which I have long sought and which will make standing in many cases easier.
Highest speed I've seen a RedBird reach is 50-51 mph on 7 Express.
R36Gary
As a regular Broad Street Subway commuter, I always get a kick about you New Yorkers talking about speed. The Broad Street Subway often breaks 62 mph, and I don't remember when the last accident was.
Where does it hit 62? I guess it's an express run. Wonder between which two stations does it hit that speed?
Thanks!
Chuck Greene
broad street in PHILLY ???? 60 MPH !!!! wow !!!! but is that true ??
Absolutely. It's a full four-track express, and trains run very fast on the express tracks, almost as fast on the local tracks. MFL also runs almost that fast. Have you been to Washington? WMATA hits 74...
And the Baltimore Metro hits 75 in spots (above the portal to Rogers Avenue and also above Old Court to Owings Mills homeball.
Instead of poles in the middle of the ailse, which impede passenger movement, they have rails along the ceiling. However, this will be a problem for short people. There are poles and handholds near the doors (bad idea), and I'm not sure if there are poles near the benches in the center of the car.
As for the speed, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU SMOKING? There's nowhere in the system where ANY car will bve able to safely attain such a speed, the one exception being maybe the line from Howard Beach to Broad Channel, where these cars won't run. What's the point of a car that can run faster than the ROW can safely allow?
-Hank
Excuse me Hank, you remember me??
Those overhead grab irons will be a problem for TALL people as well, thank you.
6'8" myself.
Yeah, I guess you'll have to duck a bit. But at least you'll be able to reach the handhold.
-Hank :)
What's the point of a car that can run faster than the ROW can safely allow?
One could always improve the ROW to make the cars run faster. What are the benefits to the transit passenger - a shorter time spent trying to be tethered to a center rail. There are also considerable benefits to the transit operator.
Consider the following: 10 mile long route; 20 stations; 30 second dwell time per station. First example: acceleration/braking 1.5 mph/s; max speed 30 mph. Second example: acceleration/braking 3.5 mph/s; max speed 50 mph. Travel time: 37 min - first example; 27 min - second example. This means that faster service can be translated into less equipment and personnel - 25% less with the numbers chosen for this example.
You're assuming that the car with the higher top speed also has the greater acceleration. Is that necessarily so?
50 mph is not much of a top speed. High acceleration and high speed are not mutually exclusive.
This exercise was designed to show the penalty for not using performance that was available 65 years ago.
How much extra voltage? The traction motors are rated at 300 WVDC. What about all the other components that are rated for 600 volts. The converter for example. It has 'over-voltage' protection. Where will you be going without the converter and no battery voltage.
It's nice to have the zeal of a railfan but temper your comments with some facts and/or logic.
They still have the side bars. There are additional side bars attached to the centers of the benches. The bar running down the center of the cars is a lot better than nothing at all like you have on the Redbirds. The bulkhead signs can also display green (good thing they can) so there should be no problem with any red #4 trains, especially considering that the 2 and 5 lines will be their first assignments. If the seats are comfortable, then the designers must have had the passengers' comfort in mind. And why do they need to go 80 mph? Where in the IRT would they be able to go that fast?
And they are much nicer to look at than the smelly, old Rustbirds.
i agree with you mr rivera !!! right on the money JUNK :""S"" R 142s ......... REDBIRDS passing them up
and with speed and time proven performance even in the year 2000 !!!!!!!
Hi all,
I am currently working on a collection of historical maps between 1979-January 2000 edition that will be based on current design that you all see on current map we have on this site.
What I need from SubTalk fans is a listing of any minor/major changes (must specify a date, if possible 01/01/1979, etc., if not available, 01/1979 will do) or a listing of every map updated issued by the NYCTA/NYCT since 1979 and list those changes as well.
Please send email to adler@nycsubway.org and put subject heading "Map Listing" since there are tons of junk mail to delete.
When I'm done with these maps, (it'll take a long time) I will send it to Dave Pirmann and once it is posted, I'll announce it on SubTalk.
Thanks,
Mike the Mailman
Michael Adler
adler@nycsubway.org
Mike, check your e-mail. I just sent you a large list of almost every service change I could remember starting in 1985.
Chris,
Thanks, rec'd your email, put in MapHist folder so when I'm adding a map for these dates, I can go back to it for reference.
Cheers,
Mike the Mailman in Denver, ColorFUL Colorado!
ChrisR16,
Any chance I could get a copy of that email? I'd love to know what all the changes were!
Thanks!
And if you'd like to post it, I could include it in the faq.
OK, here you go:
* = not 100% sure of the date
Late 1984?: 2 and 3 lines exchange terminals in Brooklyn. 3 moved to New Lots via Livonia Ave el, 2 moved to Flatbush Ave va Nostrand Ave. subway.
7/1/85: elimination of all double lettered routes. *
4/15/85: closure of the Queens Blvd. and Metroplitan Ave. stations on the Jamaica Ave. el and the cutback of J service to 121 St.
4/26/86: closure of the 6th Ave Manhattan Bridge tracks and implementation of split B/D service. The M was moved from the Brighton to West End lines at the same time. Express tracks on Brighton line closed, D/Q "skip-stop" service implemented. *
5/24/87: N and R terminal switch. N trains moved to Astoria and R trains moved to Forest Hills. Nightime F service routed to 57th/6th and G service cut back to Queens Plaza on weekends. Weekend B trains terminate at 57/7th, instead of Queensboro Plaza.
11/19/87 Elimination of the brown "R" Nassau St special.
4/88-6/88: Emergency Williamsburgh Bridge closure. Service plan was similiar to last summer's reroutes. JFK express service expanded and opened to all passangers during this time.
11/11/88-11/12/88: What I call "Manic Monday". The opening of the Archer Ave. extension and the removal of E service from Hillside Ave. to Archer Ave. J service extended to Parsons via new lower level. Closure of Broadway tracks on Manhattan Bridge and reopening of 6th Ave. tracks. B and D trains returned to 6th Ave. Q train rerouted to 6th Ave. to 57th St. and moed to the newly re-opened Brighton express tracks. Expansion of Fulton St express from rush hour to all weekday operation. K route (old AA) eliminated, replaced by B and expanded C service.
8/12/89: Introduction of the #9 line on the Bway IRT, as well as skip-stop service above 168th St . *
10/27/89: Opening of 63rd St line to Queensbridge. B, Q and JFK express service extended to run on new line.
4/15/90: elimination of the JFK express.
9/26/90: Opening of Broadway Manhattan Bridge tracks. N service routed express from 34th St to 59th St. in Brooklyn. This service was ended in late December due to structural problems on the bridge.
10/22/92: Rockaway line changes. H shuttle eliminated. A service to Rockaway Park implemented during rush hours. All C service cut back to Euclid Ave only. Nightime shuttle service to Lefferts Blvd implemented, A service running to Mott Ave. The "round robin" night shuttle service in Rockaway eliminated. Rockaway Park "S" shuttle service begins, running round the clock. Rush hour R service east of Forest Hills to 179th ST. eliminated. F service rerouted as a local from 179th to Forest Hills at all times. J service cut back to Chambers St. Fulton St and Broad St. closed. *
(Sometime before these changes, the R line was cut back to a shuttle from 36th to 95th Sts. in Brooklyn, and G service extended to 179th St. to compensate. I cannot remember the date)
7/7/94 M service rerouted to 4th Ave local. N service routed to 4th Ave express from 59th to Pacific. *
4/30/95-11/7/95 Midday closure of Manhattan Bridge. D service cut to 34th St, Q service runs via Broadway & Montague St. tunnel from Coney Island to Queensbridge, running express from Canal St to 57th St. B service reduced to a CI-Pacific St. shuttle. M service cut back to Chambers. C service extended from 145th to 168th to replace B. Shuttle service between Grand St. and Bway Lafayette only.
11/7/95: Mid-day M service from Chambers St. to 9th Ave eliminated (Mannhattan bridge reroute made permanent).
5/?/97 to 10/?/97: Lennox Ave. rehab. This reroute has been covered in depth before.
2/1/98 B and C service swap northern terminals. C to 168th st and B service to 145th/Bedford Park Blvd.
4/30/99 to 9/1/99: Williamsburgh Bridge closure. J service reduced to shuttle from Myrtle Ave to Jamaica Center. M line split: from Metropolitan Ave to Marcy Ave 24 hours a day, also Chambers St. to Bay Parkway rush hours peak direction only. Shuttle service from Broad St (Chambers St on weekends) to Essex St also provided for.
Feel free to correct any mistaken dates.
Sorry for the errors in the previous post. Here's a corrected version:
* = not 100% sure of the date
Late 1984?: 2 and 3 lines exchange terminals in Brooklyn. 3 moved to New Lots via Livonia Ave el, 2 moved to Flatbush Ave va Nostrand Ave. subway.
7/1/85: elimination of all double lettered routes. *
4/15/85: closure of the Queens Blvd. and Metroplitan Ave. stations on the Jamaica Ave. el and the cutback of J service to 121 St.
4/26/86: closure of the 6th Ave Manhattan Bridge tracks and implementation of split B/D service. The M was moved from the Brighton to West End lines at the same time. Express tracks on Brighton line closed, D/Q "skip-stop" service implemented. *
5/24/87: N and R terminal switch. N trains moved to Astoria and R trains moved to Forest Hills. Nightime F service routed to 57th/6th and G service cut back to Queens Plaza on weekends. Weekend B trains terminate at 57/7th, instead of Queensboro Plaza.
11/19/87 Elimination of the brown "R" Nassau St special.
4/88-6/88: Emergency Williamsburgh Bridge closure. Service plan was similiar to last summer's reroutes. JFK express service expanded and opened to all passangers during this time.
12/11/88-12/12/88: What I call "Manic Monday". The opening of the Archer Ave. extension and the removal of E service from Hillside Ave. to Archer Ave. J service extended to Parsons via new lower level. Closure of Broadway tracks on Manhattan Bridge and reopening of 6th Ave. tracks. B and D trains returned to 6th Ave. Q train rerouted to 6th Ave. to 57th St. and moved to the newly re-opened Brighton express tracks. Expansion of Fulton St express from rush hour to all weekday operation. K route (old AA) eliminated, replaced by B and expanded C service.
8/12/89: Introduction of the #9 line on the Bway IRT, as well as skip-stop service above 168th St . *
10/27/89: Opening of 63rd St line to Queensbridge. B, Q and JFK express service extended to run on new line.
4/15/90: Elimination of the JFK express.
9/26/90: Opening of Broadway Manhattan Bridge tracks. N service routed express from 34th St to 59th St. in Brooklyn. This service was ended in late December due to structural problems on the bridge.
10/22/92: Rockaway line changes. H shuttle eliminated. A service to Rockaway Park implemented during rush hours. All C service cut back to Euclid Ave only. Nightime shuttle service to Lefferts Blvd implemented, A service running to Mott Ave. The "round robin" night shuttle service in Rockaway eliminated. Rockaway Park "S" shuttle service begins, running round the clock. Rush hour R service east of Forest Hills to 179th ST. eliminated. F service rerouted as a local from 179th to Forest Hills at all times. J service cut back to Chambers St. on weekends, Fulton St and Broad St. closed. *
(Sometime before these changes, the R line was cut back to a shuttle from 36th to 95th Sts. in Brooklyn, and G service extended to 179th St. to compensate. I cannot remember the date)
7/7/94 M service rerouted to 4th Ave local. N service routed to 4th Ave express from 59th to Pacific. *
4/30/95-11/7/95 Midday closure of Manhattan Bridge. D service cut to 34th St, Q service runs via Broadway & Montague St. tunnel from Coney Island to Queensbridge, running express from Canal St to 57th St. B service reduced to a CI-Pacific St. shuttle. M service cut back to Chambers. C service extended from 145th to 168th to replace B. Shuttle service between Grand St. and Bway Lafayette only.
11/7/95: Mid-day M service from Chambers St. to 9th Ave eliminated (Mannhattan bridge reroute made permanent).
5/?/97 to 10/?/97: Lennox Ave. rehab. This reroute has been covered in depth before.
2/1/98 B and C service swap northern terminals. C to 168th st and B service to 145th/Bedford Park Blvd.
4/30/99 to 9/1/99: Williamsburgh Bridge closure. J service reduced to shuttle from Myrtle Ave to Jamaica Center. M line split: from Metropolitan Ave to Marcy Ave 24 hours a day, also Chambers St. to Bay Parkway rush hours peak direction only. Shuttle service from Broad St (Chambers St on weekends) to Essex St also provided for.
Feel free to correct any mistaken dates.
If you want to put this in your FAQ, Dave, feel free. Just give me credit :-)
Sorry, but I keep finding small errors and I'm a perfectionist. Hopefully, this will NOW be 100% correct:
*** SERVICE CHANGES: 1985-1998 ***
* = not 100% sure of the date
Late 1984?: 2 and 3 lines exchange terminals in Brooklyn. 3 moved to New Lots via Livonia Ave el, 2 moved to Flatbush Ave va Nostrand Ave. subway.
7/1/85: elimination of all double lettered routes. *
4/15/85: closure of the Queens Blvd. and Metroplitan Ave. stations on the Jamaica Ave. el and the cutback of J service to 121 St.
4/26/86: closure of the 6th Ave Manhattan Bridge tracks and implementation of split B/D service. The M was moved from the Brighton to West End lines at the same time. Express tracks on Brighton line closed, D/Q "skip-stop" service implemented. *
5/24/87: N and R terminal switch. N trains moved to Astoria and R trains moved to Forest Hills. Nightime F service routed to 57th/6th and G service cut back to Queens Plaza on weekends. Weekend B trains terminate at 57/7th, instead of Queensboro Plaza.
11/19/87 Elimination of the brown "R" Nassau St special.
4/88-6/88: Emergency Williamsburgh Bridge closure. Service plan was similiar to last summer's reroutes. JFK express service expanded and opened to all passangers during this time.
12/11/88-12/12/88: What I call "Manic Monday". The opening of the Archer Ave. extension and the removal of E service from Hillside Ave. to Archer Ave. J service extended to Parsons via new lower level. Closure of Broadway tracks on Manhattan Bridge and reopening of 6th Ave. tracks. B and D trains returned to 6th Ave. Q train rerouted to 6th Ave. to 57th St. and moved to the newly re-opened Brighton express tracks. Expansion of Fulton St express from rush hour to all weekday operation. K route (old AA) eliminated, replaced by B and expanded C service.
8/12/89: Introduction of the #9 line on the Bway IRT, as well as skip-stop service above 168th St . *
10/27/89: Opening of 63rd St line to Queensbridge. B, Q and JFK express service extended to run on new line.
4/15/90: Elimination of the JFK express.
9/26/90: Opening of Broadway Manhattan Bridge tracks. N service routed express from 34th St to 59th St. in Brooklyn. This service was ended in late December due to structural problems on the bridge.
10/22/92: Rockaway line changes. H shuttle eliminated. A service to Rockaway Park implemented during rush hours. All C service cut back to Euclid Ave only. Nightime shuttle service to Lefferts Blvd implemented, A service running to Mott Ave. The "round robin" night shuttle service in Rockaway eliminated. Rockaway Park "S" shuttle service begins, running round the clock. Rush hour R service east of Forest Hills to 179th ST. eliminated. F service rerouted as a local from 179th to Forest Hills at all times. J service cut back to Chambers St. on weekends, Fulton St and Broad St. closed. *
(Sometime before these changes, the R line was cut back to a shuttle from 36th to 95th Sts. in Brooklyn at night, and G service extended to 179th St. to compensate. I cannot remember the date)
7/7/94 M service rerouted to 4th Ave local. N service routed to 4th Ave express from 59th to Pacific. *
4/30/95-11/7/95 Midday closure of Manhattan Bridge. D service cut to 34th St, Q service runs via Broadway & Montague St. tunnel from Coney Island to Queensbridge, running express from Canal St to 57th St. B service reduced to a CI-Pacific St. shuttle. M service cut back to Chambers. C service extended from 145th to 168th to replace B. Shuttle service between Grand St. and Bway Lafayette only.
11/7/95: Mid-day M service from Chambers St. to 9th Ave eliminated (Mannhattan bridge reroute made permanent).
5/?/97 to 10/?/97: Lennox Ave. rehab. This reroute has been covered in depth before.
2/1/98 B and C service swap northern terminals. C to 168th st and B service to 145th/Bedford Park Blvd.
4/30/99 to 9/1/99: Williamsburgh Bridge closure. J service reduced to shuttle from Myrtle Ave to Jamaica Center. M line split: from Metropolitan Ave to Marcy Ave 24 hours a day, also Chambers St. to Bay Parkway rush hours peak direction only. Shuttle service from Broad St (Chambers St on weekends) to Essex St also provided for. Also, Fulton St express service expanded to weekends, C service extended to Euclid Ave. from the WTC to provide local service.
Feel free to correct any mistaken dates.
If you want to put this in your FAQ, Dave, feel free. Just give me credit :-)
Chris,
1/9 skip stop service is above 137 St.
9/99 - 2 service runs local in Manhattan during Midnight hours.
There are several corrections and additions:
1/94 to 6/95: Stillwell Ave Viaduct reconstruction, N service were cut back to 86 Street.
Beginning 5/31/94, N operates express from Pacific Street to 59 Street/4 Av during weekday rush hours and middays.
Beginning 9/6/94, 9 train service is cut to rush hours only.
Beginning 2/27/95, rush-hour 5 trains operates to/from E238 Street/Nereid Ave.
Starting 11/95, Grand Central Shuttle late night service discontinued.
Starting 3/97, G line terminates at Court Square during weekends.
Starting 9/97, because of 21 Street extension construction, at nights E and F trains run local in Queens; G line terminates at Court Square after 9 PM. 21 Street night shuttle runs local along 6 Ave from 21 Street to 2 Ave.
3/98 to 10/98: Lenox Ave tunnel rehab.
7/24/98 to 10/18/99: Franklin Ave Shuttle reconstruction.
4/6/98 to 5/22/99: 63 Street tunnet reconstruction, B & Q Service cut to 57 Street/6 Ave. 63 Street Shuttle to 57 Street/7 Ave; extended to 34 Street during weekdays.
Starting 9/99, #2 becomes local during nights; #6 is extended to Brooklyn Bridge during nights.
Chaohwa
The R was cut back to a shuttle during late nights at the same time that the N was temporarily back on the Broadway Express tracks (Sept. 1990). During late nights the N still ran local in place of the R. A year later, the N, unfortunately, went back to being local 24/7 but late night R service to Manhattan and Queens was not restored. The G continued to go to 179/Jamaica until 1994 when the F was restored to 179/Jamaica 24/7.
Actually, it was 1997 or 1998 when the F was returned to the Queens Blvd. line late nights. I believe it was changed to accomodate the 63rd. St track replacement.
Speaking of the R, don't forget that it ran out to 179th St. for a time after the Archer Ave. line opened. At first, it was a 24/7 deal, then scaled back to rush hours only, then finally permanently cut back to Continental Ave. during the times it ran.
I believe full time R service ended in 1991, and the rush hour service a year later. Since I didn't have exact dates, I didn't get very detailed about these changes.
I hate to do this to you, but...
What about the elimination of "F" Culver Express service in the mid-80s? I have the fall 1985 subway map ("Contains Brighton Line Diversion Information"), which shows it, but by the 5/24/87 update it was gone.
That service disappeared when they were doing trackwork and had wooden "temporary" platform extensions. This lasted only a few months, but the express service was never re-instituted.
Caught Transit Transit yesterday on channel 25. Just would like to say: Way to Go Thurston!!! You must feel honored!!!
R36Gary
Yes, but now it's Heypaul's turn. Thanks for the good words just the same.
Mr t__:^)
Now, what's the story behind these two avenues in Da Bronx? I think they were built with their respective rail lines, I also notice that Third Avenue overtakes part of Boston Road, because BR is part of the old Boston Post Road which included a road following Park Avenue in Manhattan.
While we're at it, I'll pop some more questions about streets, which is why I am placing this on Off Subtalk.
What's up with Riverside Drive West? Why does RSD have to curve eastward to meet Edwin M. Morgan Place and 158th Street? When was RSDW built? Couldn't they have just ran RSD north along the riverfront and the road between the junction with the main part and west at 160, and called the current Drive from there to 158 along with Morgan Place, RSD East? I know that Broadway from 155 to 157, Morgan Place, and the Drive north of there were once part of the Boulevard Lafayette, a northerly extension of the Boulevard (Broadway north from 59).
If the Bloomingdale Road followed Hamilton Place, I assume Amsterdam wasn't around and that the road was extended to the Albany Post Road (St. Nicholas)?
How was the Albany Post Road connected to Boston Post Road, unless it wasn't and people had to use Bloomingdale.
What were other colonial and early era roads in Manhattan?
Finally, what's up with the street based numbering at upper Riverside Drive, does anybody have more details?
Please respond to all but the questions in the first paragraph via Off Subtalk. I will frown upon responses to (On) SubTalk.
Park Ave was selected as the roadbed of the then NY&Harlem RR because it was a natural part of the valley of the ancient route of the Bronx River. You can do some further research on this with some Bronx and NY Central history. The location where the current Botonical Garden Station on the Metro North line is about where the ancient Bronx river connected to what became the Park Ave valley ROW. Just north of there is a place called Twin lakes in Bronx Park that may have been the ancient route of the river. The Mosholu creek valley also intersects (from the west) at about the BG Sta also. The whole area was a swamp in the 19c. Commercial and residential development in the 20c completely changed the topography of the area. Prior to 1900, a branch of the NYC curved west from just north of BG sta to where the Jerome Park reservoir is now. Jerome Park was a race track before 1900. Webster Ave came into existance around then also. The 52nd Precint building was built as a mounted police force barracks about 1899.
Third Ave in the Bronx was named for the el that was built and ran above it. Many other named streets appear to diverge from or go into it. You will note, that Third Ave dead ends at Fordham Road & Park Ave, where the NY Central tracks pick up the Park Ave valley. The 3rd Ave el at that point went on to PROW to the Bronx Park sta that was alongside the NYCRR tracks. The Webster Ave extension to White Plains Road (the last el extension) was built in the 20's. The lower portion of the el from 145th St to the River was also on PROW. The entire el was planned to be on PROW. However, even at the turn of the century, speculators had driven the cost of PROW out of sight. Hence, the Bronx street named Third Ave came into being. There was a lot of political and high financial maneuvering back then that produced what became the Suburban and ultimately the 3rd Ave El in the Bronx.
There was probably a three way battle between the financial forces of NY City, the NY Central and the New Haven RR and probably a few other unnamed players of the era to control or to have trackage rights on the then new and abuilding NYC Rapid transit system.
I remember when riding the BMT in the early 1960s that there used to be a Culver Express that ran during rush hour only. It ran over the Manhattan Bridge to Chambers St. but ran over tracks on the opposite side of the bridge from where the West End, Sea Beach, & Brighton Trains used to run. The equipment used on this line was not your standard dark brown BMT standards, but more of a box type car with a brick red exterior, extra wide doors, and wire mesh over the bottom part of the windows. It also had a bright roomy interior. Can any one tell me what those unusual cars were and whether the tracks over the bridge to Chambers St. are still in use today ?
I believe those red colored cars were the converted SIRT (Staten Island Rapid Transit) cars purchased for the Culver line. They may have also been refered to as "E" types. Thru service on the Culver line ended in 1959. From then until 1975 the section from Ditmas to 9th Ave. ran as a 1 track shuttle. The tracks that used to feed Chambers St. were connected to the Broadway line in 1967 after the Broadway tracks were connected to the new Chrystie St.connection. These tracks have been closed since 1990.
You mean after the 6th Avenue tracks were connected to the Chrystie Street connection. Those tracks are still connected to the Broadway line, even if they aren't in use due to structural problems on the bridge.
No, Chris had it right. Originally, the south side Bridge tracks connected to Nassau St and the north side Bridge tracks connected to Broadway. At the time of the Christie St connection, the Broadway tracks were connected to Christie St to make the IND-BMT connection, and the Nassau St tracks were connected to Broadway to make the current service pattern. The Nassau St loop tracks were severed from the bridge and are now used for storage.
It is possible that they were the "D Types". Were they articulated??
No, they were not articulated like the old Sea Beach Express. They were single car units. You could not walk from one car to another.
KING SOLOMON
They were most likely the cars brought over from Staten Island. The trains used the loop, and ran in Rush Hours. In the Am the ran on the Bridge to the City, and returned via the tunnel as a local. They reversed directions in the PM Rush Hours. If I remember correctly they only ran 2-3 trains in each direction.
The color used was influenced by the then-new R15's being placed into IRT service. That was a dead giveaway, along with the wire-mesh on the windows, that these were SIRT cars.
Joe C.
Unfortunately, in those days before car washers, the color didn't last long before being covered with a layer of black-brown dirt. Both the ex-SIRT cars and the R-15s spent much of their lives looking the same "dirt" color as all of the other NY subway cars.
-- Ed Sachs
Joe,
In looking at pictures of the old SIRT cars, on this web site, I noticed that they had one large bright spotlight on top in the center at the front exterior of the train. I do not remember this feature on the Culver Line. Was this large spotlight eliminated when the trains were modified for BMT service ?
KING SOLOMON
I believe that is so - when they were delivered they were essentially commuter rail cars (B&O Railroad subsidiary). NYCT doesn't use the single headlight up front at all. Neither did the BMT at the time.
Check under BMT ODDITIES in the illustrated Subway Car Roster to see how the ME-1 ("E" type) looked in BMT Service.
Wayne
The cars you are referring to were ex-SIRT cars transferred to the BMT in the mid 1950s. They became surplus on the SIRT when the North Shore and South Beach branches were closed in 1953. In all, 30 cars (25 motors and 6 trailers) went to the BMT, but the trailers were never used. It had been expected that these cars would MU with the BMT standards (they looked somewhat similar and were the same size), but they didn't, so they were used as five 5-car solid trains.
They served on the Culver line until 1959, and then on the West End local line until early 1961, when the arrival of the R-27s allowed for their retirment.
-- Ed Sachs
RIGHT BELOW THOSE NASTY ( no vidieography ) P.A.T.H. trains some good tasting KOSHER DOGS
are served at the newark penn central station in NEWARK N.J. have you ever tasted them ??????
deeelicous !!!!!!!!!!!
Hey Salaamallah, should have come to Kings Highway when you were here. A decent walk to a Glatt Kosher Nathans, no cheese fries but the dogs are good.
you know sir on a lighter note while i was vidieotaping the L & J Trains 4 hourld long only $ 20.oo
and re taping the # 5 end to end while talking to motorman MR ALLEN ............... $ 20.oo
I KEPT ASKING MYSELF WHERE I COULD BUY HOT FAST KOSHER FOOD WHILE IN NEW YORK
CITY CLOSE TO ANY SUBWAY SYSTEM ANFD OR TERMINAL ...........
thats where the PENN STATION AT NEWARK CME UP ( you see i dont eat PORK )....
but dont worrry ( pigs of royal island has nothing to worry about ) I dont eat his friends !!!
the all KOSHER FOOD STAND featured SHOFAR DOGS .......... man !!!!!!!!! they were goooood !!!!!!
Lou, Are you talking about Adelmans on Kings Hwy and E 19th.?
B"H
He's referring to the O-U certified glatt kosher Nathan's. It's on Kings Hwy between 9th & 10th I believe. And, IMHO, the hot dogs are just average. Of course I may have gone on an off day.
Just my $0.02
Nope Not Aldermans the other way as Yitz said. It surprised the heck out of me when it opened. IT is not worth the expense if you ask me but the place is normaly packed.
i think that was the name of it next time i will try nathans !!!
You have to go to Nathans in Coney Island, The other places are NOT THE SAME
i think that was the name of it next time i will try nathans !!! ...
If not Adelmans, which one is it? I do remember way back their was another Deli on the West Side of the Brighton, but do not remember where it is.
Of course not - he was talking about a _Kosher_ place! (snicker, snicker) :-)
subfan
You complain about posts being off topic and then you go out and post this.
what does this message have to do with TRANSIT SYSTEMS WORLDWIDE !!!???!!! or RAILFAN WINDOW !!!!!
Plenty. Railfans gotta eat!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
YEA !!!!! but lets have a joke or two LIGHTEN UP AND LAUGH !!!!!!! on topic of cource !
DONT HAVE A COW MAN !!!!! ( but i dont eat any pig !!! )
03/13/2000
Not only that, but railfanning makes us all hungry!!
Besides, ever see a whole string of hot dogs laid down straight? Don't they look like reddish colored articulated subway cars??
Bill Newkirk
like kosher REDBIRDS !! ( as long as they are kosher ) !!!!!!
did i send you a railfan tape once ? and what is wrong with PIGS OF ROYAL ISLAND??
why is he advocating my removal from subtalk ?
what in the hell did i do to warrant that ?????
thank you mr newkirk !!!!
03/13/2000
Salaam,
Did you get the name of that stand? Maybe I'll lunch there when checking on the "Last Days" on the Newark City Subway PCC's.
Did you videotape the Newark PCC's? Especially out the openable rear window!
Bill Newkirk
Did they serve kosher hot dogs at Nathan's? I don't want to know about today, but back in the 40's and 50's. I always thought the dogs at Nathan's Coney Island were the best I ever tasted. Perhaps the excitement at being at Coney had something to do with it,and and after an afternoon on the rides and or at the beach, a youngster could work up a serious appetite. And they were cheap, too, I think about 15 cents. We used to collect 2 cent coke, pepsi, and mission orange bottles and cash them in. We'd collect over two dollars doing that, and we'd feast at Nathan's. When I was there this summer, it was a much older man and my taste was their seafood.
I don't even think the dogs at Nathan's are "that good", but it's the atmosphere of Coney Island (and that great view of Stillwell Terminal) that makes them taste "better" ....
--Mark
(I don't even think the food in Coney Island is that good)
None of the food in Coney Island is that good. Although one wouldn't normally expect great value by the seashore, commercial property down there isn't all that expensive. I guess the short season discourages people from investing in new places.
Nathan s are All Beef, but they are not Kosher. Fred you can buy Nathans at most Ralphs, Vons or Lucky s in the LA Area, and then grill them, or broil them in a Toaster Oven
HELL ( pigs of royal island ) you are off topic many times oink !!! oink !!
what was on topic was that i took a break from TRYING TO SHOOT SOME VIDIEO OF PATH ....
and besides lighten up and have a laugh or two sometime !!!!!!! like bart simpson says
********* DONT HAVE A COW MAN ****** !!!!!!!!!!!!
Right On Salaam, you were at Penn Station at Newark. Where ypucan find all types of Surface Transit there, Streetcar Line, Bus Lines, A Commuter Rail Line, a Long Distance Line, Path, what else did I mention? You can find Shofar or Hebrew National Kosher Dogs in Most Vons and Ralphs in the LA Area.
hebrew national are my favorite !!! they taste best STEAMED NOT FRIED OR BOILED !!
then there is issac jells shofar best kosher etc...
i usulally buy them at PRICE CLUB - COSCO where i bought film to use when i come to new york
and to shoot the subway KODAK 400 speed and i buy TDK 8 MM VIDIEOTAPE TO OPERATE
MY SONY TR86 AND TRV66 WITH ( nightshot) TO SHOOT MY RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEOS
while they are still around to be shot out of !!
i will donate a tape to you oif you are interested just tell PIGS OF ROYAL ISLAND how good i am !!
Try grilling them on the BBQ or if you have a toaster over, broil for about 7-8 minutes.
Actually I love those rippers! And can't you control your excitement?
(Fried Dogs)
-Hank
question ????? street car line ??? next time if you tell me where i will go to it !!!
I think he's talking about the Newark City Subway which uses old Trolley Cars. By the way, don't let Pigs bother you. Just ignore him.
RE: Newark City Subway.
Go quickly, though. New LRV's (See views of Hudson-Bergen LRV's on Nycsubway.org) are on the way and the PCC's days are dwindling. By late this year, they will be replaced by LRV's.
BTW, Like Sgt. Jeff says, don't let Pigs get to you. After all, he's the one who changed his handle at least 10 times in 1999 and early 2000. Know anyone else that did that?
yes the PIGS!! and engenus D train inc other handles etc.... ( TRANSVERSE CAB FAN CLUB INC )
has changed HIS HANDLE A DOZEN TIMES...... i use MY REAL HANDLE ....and my REAL name!!!
my offer still stands one free vidieo for you of your choice !! thanks for standing up for me !!!
Why does the handle changing matter? There was rarely any doubt as to the change having occured. Besides, there were only FOUR groups.
Eugenius Train
Defy Reason
Humans
Pigs
Everything else was an end add on. Salaam Allah also had many different end add ons (Salaam Allah Subway Photographer, Salaam Allah Los Angeles Rail transit, Los Angeles MTA Red Line Mr. Willie).
If you do ask most people, they will find Salaam Allah the more annoying poster, by far. At least my posts don't look like they were posted by some ten year old who just learned how to type.
first of all many people here find your posts annoying and especially trying to have others THROWN off
of sub talk !!! for example i had to change my name because of racists and attacks on myself because
of my race my religion etc... werent you one of those persons who sent me HATE E MAIL ?????
and i have seen your posts mispelled like a ten yer old as you say etc.....;
ecerybody is not as perfect word processor as you would like them to be !!!
and what do you bring to subtalk except to rase hell against others who peacefully post and even give
services @ example given free tapes i and heypaul give away like the next tape i will give out free
about the TRUTH OF THE LOS ANGELES SUBWAY TO NOWHERE ! ( mta red line ) etc.........
so what if my typing is not the best I DONT GO AFTER PEOPLE FLAMING AND ATTACKING !!!!!
how about you mr pig?? defy rerason E train humans etc......
all i was trying to do is to escape some those racist attacks against me by hiding with a different post !!
what was your excuse AKA mr pig ?? what do you contribute positive to subtalk ???
do you post pictures and photography of the subway cars trains and system ????
or are you a TA employee with experence AKA mr pig ?????? what do you bring to the table ???
what besides attacks of higher fares and spreading and promoting MISERY AND PAIN ... do you offer ??
i had to defend myself against anyone who flams and attacks me PERSONALLY !!!
when someone says they disagree FINE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and i dont have any problem with this at all !!!!
then you move on and act like a MAN !!! many of your posts leave a lot to be desired !!!
thats why i offer JEFFREY ROSEN a free vidieo for standing up for me !!! thank you very much !!!
Of all the people from whom to hear the following: "many of your posts leave a lot to be desired !!!"
I never sent you any hate mail, or any e-mail for that matter. I have no interest in extending conversation with you to other forums, it's more than enough here.
The fare will have to go up, I was suggesting the best value for it to be. $1.80 is actually better than $1.75 because it's even.
I'm not going to itemize my contributions in information and discussion to this board.
BTW, changing your name fooled no one.
well the racist e mails stopped it must have worked ( except for you )
and remember i never flanned you just the topics of rail systems worldwide now david pirmann
has forced you to go to ONE HANDLE ONE PERSON ONLY ( OHOPO ) and the rest of us also !!!
i guess that makes you mad !!! i decided under the new handle system to use my real name etc...
amoung the things are my 100 % total success with railfan vidieos being requested and given top
reviews !!!! just ask heypaul !! i am not to proud to boast they are top quality !!!
thats sone of what i bring to the table at subtalk !!!!!! my still pictures came out quality too !!!!!
THE KOSHER DOGS AT PENN STATION WAS FOR LAUGHS AND MEANT TO LOOSEN THINGS UP !!!
A frank, Kosher or not, is easy enough to grab on the run, but dining options are very limited at Newark Penn Station. The pizza joint only has high counters, no seats or tables. The McDonalds has seats, tables and very nasty, aggressive, persistent panhandlers that ply their harrassment unchallenged by McDonald's management or station police.
Not a very good impression to long-distance travelers.
It's easier and cheaper to grab a bite in the Village before grabbing PATH out to Newark.
well the LOS ANGELES AIRPORT ( LAX ) is just like the penn station at newark !!!!
I agree with you 100% about the station,Howard. But if you exit the south side of the building (not the Gateway side) and take a short walk down Ferry St. into the ironbound district,you'll find a nice neighborhood full of excellent Spanish and Portugese restaurants.
Blimpie has tables and seats!
And lots of gas!
As Fitz said, there are a lot of good restaurants if you exit the south side of the station. It is relatively safe in that area.
Another tip is if you're by the Path 9th St Station. Walk one block to 8th St. The Grand Papaya sells sone of the best hot dogs & it's a real bargain. Not Kosher (I stray once in a while). Up until recently they were 50 cents but I heard they finally had to up it 75 cents. Needless to say there is always a line there but it goes quick.
When were these subway cars ended their service.
The R12,14,and15 were retired in the mid '80's some are still in MOW
TRAINS. One R-12 is in the transit museum car #5760 and one R-15 car#
6239.
What are MOW trains?
Maintenance Of Way, commonly known as work trains
Please correct me if I am wrong, is the r-15 the first "round top" type car not including the r-11? About how many are still in use as MOW ?
I know we all have our favorites, the R-15,R-16 and the R-11 start my list.
I'd like to see the WAMARTA TYPE CARS ON THE FABELED MISTICAL future Far Rockaway/ Hempsteat Loops.
Yes, the R15 was the first round top car.
... also referred to as a "turtle back" roof.
--Mark
Thank you, thats the first I heard that term , but I still new at exchanging info with other fans.
All three of these classes made their debut on the Flushing Line, displacing the Low V cars assigned there to the main lines and enabling the retirement of the first High V cars. These were the first cars purchased for the Flushing Line which were not designed with special gearing to handle the grades in the Steinway Tunnel.
The R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s, which did indeed displace the Steinway Lo-Vs, remained on the Flushing line until the R-36s began arriving in 1963-64. By then, all of the Hi-Vs were gone, having been replaced by the R-17s, R-21s, and R-22s. The R units didn't need special gearing for the Steinway tunnels, as their propulsion systems were more than adequate to negotiate the steep grades.
The R-15s featured another "first" on NYC subway cars: door controls in the cabs. Even so, they suffered the same fate when they found their way to the mainlines as did the R-12s and R-14s: they didn't run in solid trains again.
03/14/2000
[Yes,the R-15 was the first round top car]
Commonly known as turtle back roof.
Bill Newkirk
The R12 was retired in mid 1981. The R14 and R15 were retired in late 1984, replaced by the first R62 cars.
IIRC, the R-62s and R-62As were a direct replacement for cars beginning with the R-17s, R-21s, and R-22s. The R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s were retired with no direct replacement. At the time, ridership was declining, and the system itself had hit rock bottom. Hindsight being 20/20, no one back then had any idea that ridership would increase the way it has.
Does the LIRR still run service all the way out to Greenport at the end of the line on the North Fork ? I last rode that line 30 years ago.
KING SOLOMON
Yes. I have some pictures of Greeport at the very botton of this page.
You call that service?? 2 trains to Green Port M-F 3 Trains from Greenport. The weekend has two trains in each direction.
Will this change on the new time tables the end of March??
Don't think so...
The question was: "Does the LIRR still run service all the way out to Greenport at the end of the line on the North Fork?"
It's certainly isn't rush hour service, but it is service.
[The question was: "Does the LIRR still run service all the way out to Greenport at the end of the line on the North Fork?"
It's certainly isn't rush hour service, but it is service.]
Barely ...
I call it still a rail line, and in a reasonably good state of repair.
The LIRR wants to extend electric to Yaphank. There's a lot of building out there.
Contrast with 20 years ago when Suffolk Exec John V.N. Klein wanted to pave everything east of Ronkonkoma and make it a busway.
[I call it still a rail line, and in a reasonably good state of repair.
The LIRR wants to extend electric to Yaphank. There's a lot of building out there.]
Speaking as someone who rides the Greenport line, though only as far as Medford, I don't quite see what would be accomplished by extending electrification to Yaphank. Changing trains at Ronkonkoma is a complete no-brainer and in any event dual modes could be used if demand warranted.
If the LIRR is serious about increasing ridership on the line, they'll have to do something about improving service. As things now stand, there is exactly one morning rush hour train, and the last connecting train in the evening leaves Penn at 5:41. Only people who can be really sure about the regularity of their working hours can take advantage of the line. On the occasions that I might have to stay late, I have no choice but to go from Patchogue (I'd sooner gargle with raw sewage than drive to Ronkonkoma). If the LIRR added another trainset to the line, even if only as far as Yaphank or Riverhead, ridership very well might improve. But hoping for better ridership with current service levels is pointless.
[I last rode that line 30 years ago.]
You might want to consider going their again, as they have cleaned up down town. There's still a nice ferry that goes to Shelter Island and a resturant accross the street from the station ... since you'll have so much time to kill between trains ;-)
There's also a steam train outfit in Riverhead. The North Fork is still very rual, so if you want to get out of the City for a day, give it a try ... I've driven there several summers ... driven :-(
Mr t
For those of you who know the Greenport/Mainline saga well - didn't the LIRR go through a comprehensive repair program back in the 1980's as part of a justification to dropping their "Road 'n Rail" service?
My understanding was that the bus service known as "Road 'n Rail" was to be dropped because the repair of the line would enable more trains to run on it and at a decent speed. These additional faster trains would displace the bus service that had been running since the 1960's.
Whatever happened to that?
Seems like the Main line now has even less service than Montauk.
Anybody know why the Rck Pky bound L will be bypasing Livonia this upcoming weekend????
3Train#1921Mike
Despite the threatening and chilly weather, the Yellowbird trip today was a success. A four-car authentic Yellowbird train provided the transport and ran on R3 West Trenton, R5 Thorndale and R3 Elwyn. We even stayed on schedule! There were plenty of seats despite the (my guess) roughly 120-150 attendees.
This is the first time I've heard of "Yellowbirds"! Can anyone tell
me what they are? I'm sorry I missed out on the outing. Will there be
more outings in the near future? Also, where can I view photos of
Yellowbirds? This has me very curious! Thanks.
Yellowbirds are the SEPTA's EMU painted with yellow stripes on their sides. They are running on R1--Airport line.
Since Yellowbirds are going to be painted as the usual SEPTA painting scheme, there was a farewell tour to honor these Yellowbirds.
Chaohwa
Does any one knows if the scrappers have a web site?
I mean the scrap yards that cut up subway cars.
Also does any one know were can I find information on the St. Louis car co.?
Check nycsubway.org- I think there's a site there that has a subway car cycle.
R36Gary
Umm, this IS nycsubway.org. I think he was looking for official sites of companies that scrap subway cars. I don't know of any.
-Dave
Naporano is a big car scrapper. Try NIMCO for a search keyword!
Gerry
You will find MANY listings under OSHA headlines for Nimco and Naporano Iron and Metals. From reading the pages, it would appear they have a problem trying to handle too much steel per load. They had a stock offering a few years back when they merged and am surprised to hear they won't recycle locomotives anymore. The prime movers and HEPS must fetch a fortune on the market.
I thought that NIMCo stood for Naporano Iron and Metals Company.
I read on the net a couple of years back that there was a merger of the two companies, Naporano Iron and Metals and Nimco, which runs a car shredding and separate bus recycling outfit across the street from each other. They were separate at one time.
Yes David Pirmann, I am looking for sites on car scrappers, photos and info. mostly photos.
Sincerly: R-29
I dunno, it seems to me that iron/steel scrapping is probably a largely non-"wired" industry....
I recall reading on a BB (not here) that Naporano's was no longer taking locomotives for scrapping. I don't know if that meant all rail cars or just locomotives.
Scrap yards I can't help with. However, there was a book written in the 70s called The History of the St. Louis Car Company. It is out of print, but if you search the Barnes & Noble booksite, they can locate a used copy for you with a price.
Thanks Lou:
I think I have that book,is at my parents house where I still have some of my collection.
St. Louis car went out of biz in the early 70's. Their extensive archives are in the hands of Washington University in St. Louis. I've contacted them several times for research projects, and they have been very helpful.
There is a rumor of a beatup at City Hall a couple days ago, in which some Franklin HS students pushed some kids down the steps at City Hall, and he is now in a coma. Anyone with any information.
P.S. I just emailed the transit police.
At Masterman High Thursday morning, the principal was telling students to be careful in the nearby Spring Garden BSS station because of a "serious incident" that happened the day before.
I guess that was it.
No information but a suggestion-- if you're talking about a city other than New York and it's not otherwise clear from the subject perhaps you might want to put the name of the city in the subject. Around here people think of "City Hall" as the one in NYC because of its particular subway significance...
-dave
Can we avoid this flaming, please? Children can act like children but adults shouldn't act like children. Let's attempt to stay on topic and ignore posts that we dislike. We have two options: Staying on this site and continuing to converse among ourselves, or let the webmaster shut it down! What do you think? The password system hasn't totally cut the controversy out of the picture has it?
Let's get back to being civil and stop bashing each other. None of you have the right to take personal jabs at each other.
A word to the wise: If you ignore them, they will go away. Topics can be easily dropped by simply not justifying a post with a response.
my sincere apology mr stef its just that mr pigs - royal island says things about me way off topic etc...
i guess you are right i should accept your suggestion !!! totally ignore him we all should do this !!!! shun him !!
Let us try and get back on track, my friend. SubTalk wasn't intended for mud throwing. Last time I ckecked, this was the place to get to know people and exhange ideas. We should continue to do that and not look to making this place a War Zone.
100% total agreement with you !!!!!!
Then why does my flame alarm go off whenever 90% of your lowercase posts is read??
WHATS A FLAME ALARM ??? ( i would like to know !!! ) .......
The flame alarm means problems between parties are starting to arise. Does anyone here thrive on anger? You folks can't play nice and someone is going to get burned, BIG TIME.
P.S. I hate to see this BBS board be brought to it's knees, but that might come if there's another BusTalk Fiasco. Say what you have to say and move on. Personal jabs aren't necessary. Attacks seem to be a dominant factor, don't you think?
-Stef
There seems to be a lack of respect here. If that's the case, I may refrain from posting on this BBS board until things start to calm down here.
It's just a damn hobby, stop making it personal.
stef--- i think i have to disagree with you here--- my friends pigs and salaam get on each other's nerves a bit--- it doesn't really matter who starts it--- these things happen in a family--- some people get on each other's nerves--- at times it is almost amusing reading pigs and salaam--- i just realized that salaam does not eat pork, and here we have him confronted with pigs--- pigs once pointed out that non pork eating people are the pigs best friend---
i predict that pigs and salaam will someday ride the #7 railfan window together in harmony... :>)
bus talk was rightfully shut down because the anger erupted into some ugly words and threats--- what we have here is much milder--- salaam is too much of a gentleman to engage in that, and pigs is too much of a pig to engage in mud throwing--- he would rather throw the mud on himself, as he does so well everytime he opens his snout... (now there's a real flame for you :>) )
I'm going to make one final comment on this and I'm going to move on. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, particularly these two. Let them take steps not to go over the that fine line between love and hate in which WWIII occurs.
Riding in Harmony? We'll see. You have your R-142 Gang (led by PIGS) vs the Redbird Gang (led by Salaam). I must be witness to an edition of WWF SMACKDOWN! because it seems like a free for all. Every guy has an ally here, and the battle lines have been drawn. Now it's time to get down and dirty. So I wonder who's shoulders are going to get pinned to the mat.
-Stef
the PIG will lose every time oink !! oink !!!!
Don't look at me Stef. I'm just sitting here at my computer holding my sides. It's the funniest damn needling I've ever heard, but if you've been reading you'll notice that #1Brighton Express Bob and I are always going at it in good fun. As long as it;s in fun that's fine. I've heard Bus Talk has really gotten nasty so I'm glad I'm not part of that crowd.
Keep me out of this you Right Winged Facist San Gabriel Valley Republican
look man !! the pig is NOT going to ride on any REDBIRD !! it ould hurt his
TRANSVERSE 142 CAB CENSUS FEELINGS trust me ! he aint going to do it !! oink !! oink !! oink !!
When Pigs and Salaam ride together in harmony on the #7 is the day John Rocker will join them in a triumphant triumvirate. Since trouble always comes in threes I threw in Rocker for added spice. If I joined them on the ride I would be sure to invite BX55 on board, throw in Big Alan Glick and a few others and we'd have one hell of a shindig. Mr. Pirmann would have to help us dig out a lot of rubble, but it might be fun. And yes, Peter Rosa, you would be invited, too.
Oh dear, that would probably degenerate into a generalised Pie Fight.
Wayne
"Get your pies for the Great Pie Fight!"
Blazing Saddles 1974
no pig will ride with me !! THE FLUSHING LINE !!! first of all PIGS only like new shiny R-142s !!
and pigs hate REDBIRDS !! forget it folks it redbird fans only allowed !!!!!!!
Now Now Salaam stop being a soil sport and raining on my parade. You know as well as I do that if such a trip took place the whole train would rock from end to end. Come to think about it, why not such a gathering?
hey !! its alright man !!! i tell you what hopefully this fall maybe with heypaul we will ride the last of
THE REDBIRDS together !!! TRUST ME !! pigs will not come !! they only like to SLOP inside TRANSVERSE CAB
equipped R -142 s !!!! so chill out man its alright everything will be just fine !!!!!!
I'll work on Pigs; I think he's an allright guy. And if we could put together such a trip that would be great. I've given up on that Stillwell Tour. Nobody in New York has picked up the palota and run with it. So I will trust that maybe such a Redbird trip might come off. LarryRRedbird33 are you listening.
Why? I think the Stillwell trip is a good idea, didn't Mark W just agree to organize it?
I haven't heard a thing about it, and neither has anyone else I've talked to. Anyone who knows different I would appreciate hearing from you.
I think the sound level of the arguments inside that car would cause the seams to fly apart, saving NIMCO the trouble of cutting it up, just pick uu the pieces, throw 'em in the dumpster and haul it to the smelter. THAT'S IT -- A cool new way to scrap the redbirds (after saving a few for the museums, of course)
The question would then be would we be cracking up with the Redbirds. I can just see LarryR Redbird33 trying to play referee while the rest of us are having a verbal free for all. I'd have to dragoon Brighton Beach Bob from his hideaway in Hawaii to add a little more fervor to the occasion. But by George, I think such a thing could work.
If you'd like, I will volunteer to referee and help keep the combatants at bay.
Wayne
I totally agree with heypaul
Peace,
Andee
I think it's also a case of respecting each other's opinions.
If you totally ignore me, which you have failed to do as evidenced by your responding to my messages, then I will be very happy. In our most recent quarrel, you began to antagonize me by posting responses to my messages, which of course had nothing to do with you. Like when I proposed that the next fare hike be to $1.80.
The tour went off GREAT. I will post the details tomorrow.
-Mark
P.S.
Who would like to go that did not go because of the rain? Mail me.
thats right choose your tape # 7 # 2 # 5 ... Q &A.... L & J ... YOUR PIC !!!!!! free
thank you for standing up for me against PIGS !!!! (you know) e mail me at asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
send me your po box or business address and the tape VHS is yours free !!!!!!!!!!
Lets stay on topic. If you are offering it free, Offer it over private E-Mail. This is not the right place.
Their will be a auction on April 8, 2000 sounds very interesting because they are going to sell books, slides, signs, rollsigns, and old maps and more. Well I am going you never know what kind of old subway maps their going to sell, and I may be interesting in that.
Where and what time? Are there proxy bids?
It's in the Upcoming Events list. AFAIK from the info provided by the ERA, no proxy bids.
-dave
What does this panel do? Its on the new IRT R-142.
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r142/r142-com_panel.jpg
Like the name says: it's a communications panel. Interesting touch pad. Is the TA installing a cell phone system for its T/Os?
It Doesn't Matter What The Panel Does!!!!!!
RedbirdsRULE
You go boy!!!!!!!!!!
" ALWAYS"
Nonetheless. A question was asked about the function of the panel, not about your affection for the outgoing fleet.
Exactly, as within a short time to come, Redbirds will join the Lo-V's, World Fairs, Flivvers, Composites, MUDC's, Standards, Triplexes, R-1/9 and all the other beloved cars in tha Valhalla of Railcars.
>>A question was asked about the function of the panel, not about your affection for the outgoing fleet.
Listen PIG, and listen good.. as the people..
they are chanting your name...
[Audience Chanting]
The panel is the communications panel.
For the first time it appears that the
TA will have radios as integral parts
of the trains instead of radios carried
by the crews. It will also control the
PA and intercom functions. I suspect that
the keyboard is also an integral part of
the side sign system and is used to select
messages to be displayed (similar to the
ODK on the R-44 & R-46).
what is the steepest incline a subway train can climb?
and where is the steepest incline in the system?
Two candidates come to mind:
-Canarsie-bound 'L' emerging from the tunnel after Bushwick/Aberdeen and ascending to Broadway Junction at a level ABOVE the Jamaica El and East New York yards, which are above street level as it is;
-Astoria-bound 'N' emerging from the 60th Street tube and ascending to the upper level of the Queensboro plaza complex.
How about the West End merge out of 4th Avenue?
Someone told me that the maximum grade you can reasonably run steel wheels on steel rail is 10 to 11% before loosing adhesion, apart from any power issues. Greater slopes require a cog or funicular system.
I have no idea if anywhere in the NYC system approaches 11%, or if a subway car would have the power to go up such a slope.
The steepest continuous ascent I've ever been on without the aide of cogs or cables is the Snaefel Mountain Railway on the Isle of Mann. They are so close to the adhesion limit that have a third rail in the middle solely for additional braking. Wow!
the problem would also be with clearance between the cars as the front one tilts to climb the grade would any part of it hit the car behind it...
Usually the change in grade is gradual so that doesn't happem. The Steinway Tunnel is also steep headed toward Queens.
About 6% is the practical limit for a heavy rail system. Beyond that the impact on power and scheduleing becomes oppressive. Light rail can do 8% or so.
The steepest grade I heard of was on the Fonda, Johnstown, and Gloversville interurban in upstate NY - 14%, but for a short distance.
Today railway suppliers are marketing top-of-rail "friction modifiers" that can give a little extra traction on steep grades, as well as cut down on some noise.
[About 6% is the practical limit for a heavy rail system. Beyond that the impact on power and scheduleing becomes oppressive.
Light rail can do 8% or so.]
These limits create a bit of _agita_ for the anti-Robert Moses crowd. One of the claims they make is that Moses had the Verrazano Narrows Bridge designed in a way that would make it unsuitable for rail service. What they try to avoid mentioning is the fact that had the bridge been designed with grades low enough to accomodate heavy rail, it would have needed monstrously long approaches, especially on the Brooklyn side. Doing so would have required far more property takings and obviously would have had exponentially greater impacts on neighborhoods.
Wasn't the Verrazano Bridge built over military property on both sides of the water? It looks like that the approaches on the Brooklyn side are mostly over Ft. Hamilton and Ft Wadsworth on the SI side.
[Wasn't the Verrazano Bridge built over military property on both sides of the water? It looks like that the approaches on the Brooklyn side are mostly over Ft. Hamilton and Ft Wadsworth on the SI side.]
To some extent, yes, although a fair amount of private property had to be taken in Brooklyn. The SI side is a more complicated case as the bridge was built together with the Staten Island Expressway. But the point is that the bridge as finally designed and constructed has steep grades that are wholly unsuitable for rail transit. Had it been built with rail-friendly grades, the Brooklyn approaches would have been far longer (I've heard estimates of more than one mile).
I thought the grade in the Steinway Tunnels was supposed to be the steepest in the subway - steep enough that the old IRT had to use specially built cars to negotiate it reliably. Did I misunderstand this?
I always thought the Manhattan Bridge was the steepest grade on the subway, somewhere just under 6%, but I could be mistaken.
i have set up a club on yahoo called UsTalk
as everyone who reads my posts here knows, i am
totally absorbed in myself and have an insatiable
need for attention--- the daily news article made me
feel great, for a day--- but it only whet my
appetite for more attention
seriously--- i have been a frequent poster on
SubTalk and occasional poster on BusTalk--- i
noticed that bus and sub were spelled with the same
3 letters--- i also noted that if you drop the "b"
you get us---- hence UsTalk
it's hard to talk here about personal things--- many
people would like to keep the message board true to
its intent to discuss transit issues---
it is with that thought that i set up UsTalk--- i
don't know how people feel about the idea--- i am
not sure what i really want--- i suppose it could be
a place to talk about ourselves--- i guess we could
see what if anything develops as a style or theme---
as an inducement to check out the club, i have
posted a rather bizaare explanation of why heypaul
is 56 years old, but does not look his age
anyway--- here's the website:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ustalk
or via express
via
express
A dear friend who frequents the TA Museum was able to pick up another year 2000 calandar for me. It looks like it was mailed to employees and has an interesting mix of photos ... subway, bus, MVM, stations, tunnels, etc.
For out-of-towners I would suspect if you place a credit card order and ASK they'll include it free with your order. 718-243-7230
Mr t__:^)
There was a triple running on the Green Line this past weekend!
However, this was the shuttle train from Park to Government Center and was composed of the following cars: 3619-3628-3653
Flip side, the MBTA Green Line was completely hosed during those last two days. UGH.
Yes indeed Nick! This was the second weekend of "single rail diversion" -- track and signal work between Park and Government Center. We know that three car trains can run... and just hope that when(!) the Type-8s finally are in service there will be enough inventory to run them (and return two-car trains to the E/Heath line during shoulder hours). Then again, each additional car requires an additional operator, so the T will have to commit to more employees to do this.
As of the Boston Street Railway Association meeting last week, word was there is still no definitive date for return of the Type-8s on property, nor of the resumption of deliveries. There is a BSRA fan trip scheduled for the weekend of April 7th (Boston Trolley Meet), with the hopes of a Type-8 which can be used by then. For those with interest, here's the BSRA Web site.
Are the Type-8's still out of service? They were pulled out for brake problems right?
The Type-8s in Boston are still out of service. It was reported there have been a number of problems, including the spin-slide system (similar to anti-lock brakes) which caused the trolleys to not brake properly in the fall when the rails were slippery with damp crushed leaves.
each
additional car requires an additional operator
So the T has forgotten MU? or is this contract stupidity? Even SF MUNI has joined the Frank Sprague revolution on the N and is threatening to extend this modernization to the other lines as the Bredas take over. (Somehow the Boeings require operators who do nothing in trailing units)
The Green Line trains operate on street level for much of their route, and collect fare on board the train. The cars can MU, but they need the additional operator to work the doors and collect fare.
Indeed, so also the SF MUNI lines, BUT having adopted POP(proof of payment)--the common system on most newer US systems as well as much of Europe--anyone with either a transfer or a pass may enter the trailing car.
On Sat. I was using PATCO to get into Philly to see the flower show. By the time I was ready to leave it had started to rain and it was comming down pretty hard as my train emerged from the tunnle near CP-MILL in Camden. I was riding in the last seat, facing backwards out the B end window and I heard a distinct scraping sound like what a snowplow makes as I scrapes along the street. I instantly reason that the sound is comming from the 3rd rail shoe, so I press my face to the window and look down at the tracks. To my surprise I notice that the train is throwing sparks. Not like one or two, but its like someone is cutting sheet metal under the train. The spark trail from this one shoe was at times 10 feet long. When I got off the train there was a distinct smell of ozone in the air. Needless to say I watched the train leave and the sparking was spectucular. However, I am confused. I have seen PATCO in the rail and snow before and while the normal blue arc sparks are common, I have never seen the train throw trails of small, orange embers. Its was like when your dragging your muffler on a concrete road or as if the 3rd rail was made of sand paper. Can someome please explain this to me. Is this a common occurance? What role did the rain play? Was the car defective?
I saw the same thing on the El yesterday near 46th Street. For about 4 blocks, the right shoes were trailing sustained orange sparks. Kinda weird.
This weekend my son brought home a vidio from Block Buster, the title was "The Thirteenth Floor" Scifi, In it were LA Trollies, Has anyone viewed this Vidio? If so were these trollies from a mueseum or models with excellent special effects?
This was a good scifi, suspense thriller, I give it 3 and 3/4 TOKENS out of 5.
avid
Boy did I have a wierd tranist related dream last night. I was back on my high school soccer team and instead of taking a yellow bus to the away game, we were going to take the LIRR. Please note that that my school was in South Jersey, and there would be no reason for this. Also note that I have never ridden on the LIRR. Anyway we get in this old, decrepit diesel HEP control cab coach. Everything is all dirty and the crew was rude. The HEP coasch then proceedes, under its own power (don't ask me how), to trundle around the yard looking for the diesel loco that would propel the train to its final destination (I believe i heard someone say Port Jefferson Branch or maybe it was Port Washington). They fially connected to the loco (an F-40PH), and got on the main line at which point the train stopped and I can't remember what happened after that. The only other detail I can remember is that there was a mix of electrified and non electrified track and the mainline tracks had concrete ties. Do any of the rest of you have interesting transit related dreams? Am I going insane? Does anybody wat to analize it? Hey,paul, how much time was it for you btween having dreams like these and living in a rubber room?
Watch what you eat at night!
Too many of them kosher dogs on the posts below you.
Joe C.
That's nothing compared to the hideous transit nightmare I had the other night. I dreamt that the Second Avenue Subway had never been built after ten years of talk; that repairs on the Manhattan Bridge had dragged on for over a decade with no end in sight; that the subway never had been extended to LaGuardia Aiport; and that there was some absurd fiasco to build a useless, expensive line to Kennedy Airport.
Thank God it was only a dream.
mike--- i never really got into dream analysis--- i am sure there are interpretations for some of the details of the dream--- whether they mean anything or not, i don't know--- some people say that dreams are telling us things that are missing in our lives--- were you troubled or happy or calm when you woke up?--- are you crazy?--- no, you have too good of a sense of humor--- are there things going on in your life now that involve major changes?
i again want to plug the ultimate in train dreams in the first two or three minutes of an old woody allen movie called stardust memories--- it is a really remarkable contrast of two different kinds of people
I think the weirdest i ever had was that the city of Glen Cove had a subway system. A rather short one at that,. but what was really weird was the stations and everything were awfully tight, dark, and creepy. Weird.
I also had this dream where I lived in a city that had mass transit, but it had a bizzare route structure, weird operating hours, free transfers, but only if you asked for them, And busses everywhere, except when you needed them.
Oh wait, that's not a bad dream, it's Hartford CT!
I just came to the realization that I may be forced to get a car this summer because the last bus from the University of Hartford to the old State house, and the last bus from there to my (expected) apartment in East Hartford leaves 1/2 hour too early for it to be useful.
What hell is a mass transit system good for if it only runs 9-5?
I had this dream one where i was in a station that looked like a cross between timesquare on the shuttle and 59 st on the 1/9. I waited there forever then i left the station and i was on CPW. I waited for a bus. It took a while, when it came i jumped on without it stoping and then i woke up
I have had a couple weird dreams about transit:
1. I was at Borough Hall station (which looked nothing like the real one, except for the fact that there was only 1 platform with one track like the 2/3 platforms), and the signs said that the D and the 6 stops there. I got on a D, which I think was a slant R-40. The D went 1 stop underground, and a girl whom I don't like got on. Then, my parents came on, and the D started running in the middle of Ridge Avenue in Philadelphia. Then I got up.
2. I was waiting at 11th Street Station, except there was a glass celing so light could get in. It was around 4:45 AM, but completely light.
3. I was at 30th Street Station at around 3:30 AM. I saw my camp director sitting at a table, and said hi to him. Walked down the platform, and saw the Twilight Shorliner come. But instead of waiting in the station for 50 minutes, it opened its doors, I peeked in, it closed the doors, and left. Then, since my parents think all transit at night is unsafe, a drunk person picked me up, turned me upside down, took me up the platform, and dropped me on the camp director while calling me Wendy.
4. I was going to visit the Market Street el with a couple of friends. We got on eastbound at 52nd Street (M4 train), and I was at the railfan window. At 46th, the last elevated stop before the tunnel, an older railfan got on and explained some history to me. But instead of the train going right to the tunnel, it first got onto the Schuylkill Expressway. Then, the railfan jumped off from the front door, and started running in front of the train. I did the same, realized I couldn't keep up speed, and moved to the side to watch it pass. I hitched a ride the other way, and woke up while doing so.
I remember one dream a year or two ago - I don't know where I was but I was riding on a train of London 1938 Tube Stock which was being pulled by an old LIRR MP-54, with a turtle back roof and porthole windows. We were running at grade outdoors for a while then we went flying through a station and suddenly onto a siding and the track ended! But we continued on, over piles of railroad ties, into and out of a mound of trash, and through a fence and out onto a street where we went hurtling down a ramp and into a subway, winding up at the Hoyt Street IRT station. How we got there is a mystery to me.
The damndest things happen in your dreams.
I've had dreams of Canarsie line stations minus their tablets and showing different letters (like "F" and "N") and different color schemes.
Wayne
I had another dream awhile ago where i was on PATCO with my parents and my cat. The train crossed the bridge and went into that Franklin Square/Broad Ridge connecting track twilight zone (it is that in reality), at which point the train got switched onto a stub end track, crashed through a mound of dirt and derailed. At that point eveyrone got off the train and began to mill around the tunnle. I was pissed off because I was going to be late.
Say Jersey Mike,
That's similar to one I had in the 1960's. I was riding the front of a
"D" type(BMT triplex), looking out the front window. We were express, extremely fast, on, I guess, the 4th Ave line in Bklyn.
The train rounded a curve, ran out of track and slid into a flaming hot pile of asphalt. I recall having to jump very cautiously off the anti-climber onto the "roadbed". Then I woke up. And, no, my feet were not blistered!
Joe C.
I had a dream that I was waiting for a bus/subway with my grandmother and my aunt. I think I was at Voohires Ave. in Brooklyn. We were on an island platform on the street. The "B1 Train" was coming around a sharp 90 degree turn(like a bus) and it stopped in front of me. It was a fishbowl bus, but as long as a train with no wheels. The driver was on the right side and he opened the doors.
Strange, isn't it?
Back in the mid 70's I had a lengthy transit dreamthat took several handwritten pages when I wrote it down the next morning. I won't recount everything here, except to say that I was on one of the Bronx el's, we rode for a few stations, crowded trains, Low-V's, saw an ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend (the latter was fictional), got off at one point and down on the street saw other IRT Lines in the distance (Jerome? Third Ave.? White Plains Rd. - I don't know, it was a dream). The other dream was no more than a scene - I was on an IND subway platform 34th & 6th maybe, the setting was back when they had the old vending machines on the columns. I was standing there and Woody Allen came up to me and started talking. No, I don't remember what he said.
I had a nice, weird subway dream recently. It involved a northbound D train of R-32s at 59th St. Columbus Circle. The conductor opened up on both sides, and at the same time, there was a southbound express train which did the same. Nothing unusual there; I remember when the center platform was still in use and have boarded trains from it. Here's the weird part: the conductor closed up on the side facing the center platform, but before the doors on the other side could close, the T/O got indication and off we went. I was at the railfan window, and when I saw this, I thought, ooooohhhhhh noooooooo. No one fell out of the train, which came to a stop in the tunnel without going into BIE, and an announcement was made that the train was going OOS. That's when I woke up.
I had another dream last night about the IRT. It involved some of the elevated stretches in the Bronx, as well as the Lexington Ave. line.
Was wondering where the MTA got the black-and-white numbered tiles from. If anybody knows, thanks in advance.
Got to the NY sneak preview of Stanley Tucci's "Joe Gould's Secret" on Friday night. Set in 1950, it opens with archival footage,in color, of the 3rd Ave El around Cooper Union. Seen from a building top, there is a southbound train (MUDC's) coming along just about to take a slight curve. On the street in the background is seen a red and cream Surface Transit Mack.
Several shots in the TA Museum with the R-1-9's used exclusively, supposedly in service. No car number shown, most likely car #100, all clean and shiny, with people entering and leaving. Later, there's a nice roll-sign close-up "D 6th Avenue Express", along with other interior shots of the car.
For the bus fans, there was some usage of old-look GM's in a modified
green and cream color, to emulate 5th Ave Coach, I guess. However, the use of 40' buses (TDH5106's) in 1950 is incorrect.
We give Stanley and his crew an 'A minus' for that, but otherwise a great movie and good transit.
Joe C.
I got a chance to see a Hudson-Bergen test train in action yesterday between Liberty Harbor and Harborside stations. It runs very quietly. Alarm bells are sounded at intersections. When the train approaches the intersection, it causes the traffic lights for opposing traffic to turn red. The train signal, normally a horizontal white bar on a "walk-dont walk" type signal goes to vertical and the train procedes.
There have been many posts over the years about the quality of transit service in the present, vs. the past. What do subtalkers believe was the peak for the overall quality of transit service in New York?
In the early years, the subways were new, the trolleys were electrified, the E's were still running, and ferries were still plentiful, but the subway system was not built out. Later, the IND came on board, but by then the Els, and much of the IRT equipment, was getting old. When the TA started rebuilding the subway, the trolleys were replaced by buses and the ferries more or less disappeared.
What was the high point, and why? I don't know as much about the history, so I'll wait until some others post before casting my vote.
[There have been many posts over the years about the quality of transit service in the present, vs. the past. What do subtalkers
believe was the peak for the overall quality of transit service in New York?
In the early years, the subways were new, the trolleys were electrified, the E's were still running, and ferries were still plentiful, but the subway system was not built out. Later, the IND came on board, but by then the Els, and much of the IRT equipment,
was getting old. When the TA started rebuilding the subway, the trolleys were replaced by buses and the ferries more or less
disappeared.
What was the high point, and why? I don't know as much about the history, so I'll wait until some others post before casting my
vote.]
I would say that the late 1930's were transit's Golden Years. The IND was largely completed by then, the Els were still running on Second and Third Avenues (although the former was nearing its end), IRT equipment wasn't too ancient, few if any trolley-to-bus conversions had taken place, the ferries were still plying ways across the Hudson, and commuter (and long distance) rail service hadn't begun the worst of its decline.
I would say the greatest years in New York transit history was the late 1940's, the years right after World War II. Brooklyn was then still a borough of homes and churches, good schools, and great sights. There was still some suburbs in Queens, the schools were excellent and the neighborhoods were safe. The Bronx was not the sewer most of it is today, and Manhattan was, well Manhattan.
In the summer crowds by the thousands used to take the Brighton Beach to Prospect Park Station to root for the real Dodgers, the Sea Beach and West End to what then a clean and exciting Coney Island. The rush to the suburbs was just beginning, the candy stores were all over the blocks, and stickball reigned supreme. That's my pick.
I remember the charms of Brooklyn at the very end of the '40s and the early '50s, but greatest transit years?
No way. That was when the Board of Transportation was slaughtering streetcars in Brooklyn left and right, the huge Manhattan and Bronx trolley systems were disappearing, the subways began their spiral of deferred maintenance and the elevated fleets were being barbecued.
But I enjoyed growing up then.
>>>The
Bronx was not the sewer most of it is today<<<
Much of the Bronx has a long way to go, but much of it has come a long way since Carter stood in the rubble at Charlotte Street.
Residents of these areas, the central and southeast Bronx, are striving to maintain brand-new housing built over the detritus of the old, and are doing the best they can to make the Bronx' future a brighter one.
And no, I do NOT work in the office of Freddy Ferrer.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I( would say the years just prior to WWII. The trolleys were running in all 5 boros, the subway equipment was still in good shape, People knew their neighbors. The ferries were running across the Hudson bringing Long Distancew and commuter rail into the city. The NYC and Pennsy were in their hey day, The LIRR and NH did not have the problems they had after the war.
>>>...The Bronx was not the sewer most of it is today, ...<<<
When was the last time YOU were in the Bronx? 1970?
Peace,
Andee
For those of you who answered my note about the Bronx being mostly a sewer, I was in the Bronx last summer. What I saw did not impress me at all. It was run down and dirty and grimy. The area around Yankee Stadium and the Grand Concourse looked like the aftermath of a war zone. Perhaps there are areas in the Bronx that have improved but I didn't see any. Except for the Woodlawn area, the places I saw did not give my the inspiration to someday comtemplate living there.
[For those of you who answered my note about the Bronx being mostly a sewer, I was in the Bronx last summer. What I saw did not impress me at all. It was run down and dirty and grimy. The area around Yankee Stadium and the Grand Concourse looked like the aftermath of a war zone. Perhaps there are areas in the Bronx that have improved but I didn't see any. Except for the Woodlawn area, the places I saw did not give my the inspiration to someday comtemplate living there.]
I too am quite underwhelmed by msot parts of the Bronx. Even so, it has improved somewhat from what it was like 15 or 20 years ago, emphasis on the "somewhat." I highly doubt it'll ever become a middle-class area again. Probably the most we can hope for is that the Bronx someday becomes a place in which working people without much money can find decent housing.
(Bronx will never be a middle class area again)
I wouldn't give up on Highbridge and the Grand Concourse. If the crime rate stays low and Manhattan fully gentrifies, you've got some pretty impressive buildings up there. And the Councourse line is a quick ride, if they would fix up the stations. All it would take is a few successful and well know Latinos to decide that "making it" meant a big apartment on the Concourse, not moving to the suburbs, and things could turn around quickly. Upper West Side wannabes would be right on their heels.
Unfortunately, any attempt to promote these areas as a great place to live for better off Latinos would conflict with the goal of reserving as much of New York City as possible for the homeless.
[(Bronx will never be a middle class area again)
[I wouldn't give up on Highbridge and the Grand Concourse. If the crime rate stays low and Manhattan fully gentrifies, you've got some pretty impressive buildings up there.]
Did you see the article in the Times' Metro section about the city crime rate? It turns out that while the rates of most crimes continue to decline, the murder rate has spiked way up in recent months. And it's the Bronx that's the main offender, with murders so far in 2000 running far ahead of 1999's pace. Most of the murders are believed to be associated with the drug trade.
(Murder rate way up in the Bronx.)
We'll see if it stays there. The citywide murder rate fell to a level well below the national average. At that level, a few bad incidents (or lack thereof) can really make the numbers move. Politicians like to make much of these little fluctuations -- remember Rudy talking about those miniscule changes in test scores?
Nonetheless, sort of makes you wonder what is going to happen when Rudy leaves. The City Council wants to start giving welfare recipients $8.00 per hour jobs, plus benefits. At that level, people will begin to quit private sector jobs to go on welfare, especially since there won't be any real work for them to do (maybe white liberals will support using them as teachers in Black and Latino neighborhoods).
[Nonetheless, sort of makes you wonder what is going to happen when Rudy leaves. The City Council wants to start giving welfare recipients $8.00 per hour jobs, plus benefits. At that level, people will begin to quit private sector jobs to go on welfare, especially since there won't be any real work for them to do]
I'm not sure I follow that reasoning. As far as I can tell, no one earning over $8.00 per hour would have any incentive to go on welfare and get one of these make-work jobs, though the existence of benefits might make a difference in some cases. And there aren't too many private sector jobs in NYC paying less than $8.00 per hour, except maybe for burger flipping. This isn't Arkansas or Mississippi. Nor would the fact that the Council jobs be of the make-work variety induce people to go on welfare. Working at a job where you actually have stuff to do is infinitely preferable to sitting around at a job doing nothing, strange as it may seem.
[maybe white liberals will support using them as teachers in Black and Latino neighborhoods]
Your typical white liberal (I find it difficult to write that phrase without adding the words "guilt-ridden") certainly wouldn't want ex-welfare recipients teaching little Cody or Zoe on the Upper West Side!
($8.00 an hour jobs -- what are you talking about?)
The NYC Council passed a law requiring a minimum of 2,500 welfare recipients to be hired by the city at $8.00 per hour plus full benefits. Giuliani vetoed it, the Council is expected to over-ride.
This is merely a way of sabotaging the whole idea of workfare. The "full benefits" is something commonly called a "poison pill", designed to destroy the entire idea. Expensive benefits would force the city to curtail the numbers of "workfare" recipients.
After hearing the opinions of the experts, I pick 1939 as the greatest year in NYC transit history.
The IND was almost finished -- except for a few sections completed decades later. Many subway cars were old and repair was poor, but the IND cars were new -- I'm not sure the average age of the entire fleet was much higher than at any other point when it was as large. Low fares would ruin the system, but it hadn't happened yet, so you got the benefits without the cost.
The trolleys were still on the streets. Some Els had been replaced by subways, but others were still running -- none of that demolition without replacement had occured.
You had the Worlds Fair, with three competing lines trying to get you there. And, unlike 20 years earlier, if you were middle class or better you had a car for recreational use in addition to an extensive transit system.
I'd have to go with 1980 or 1981 as the worst year for mass transit in New York.
my vote for the worst year is 1987.
[my vote for the worst year is 1987.]
An odd choice, I'd say. Graffiti was in retreat by then, though final victory was a couple of years off, maintenance standards in general were improving, new equipment was arriving, and the Archer Avenue line was about to open.
Pete, what train is the Archer Ave Line? I haven't a clue. Since you and Larry seem to know a lot about the Bronx maybe you can answer another question for me. I recently put a tape I own of the movie called "A Bronx Tale". I believe this Italian section portrayed was either Arthur Avenue or the Fordham area. Are they similar and is this area still mainly Italian-American. As a proud Dago myself I am interested in knowing if these Italian neighborhoods still exist in the Bronx or have they gone by the boards as they have elsewhere in New York City.
I think Mr. Rosa refers to Archer Avenue in Queens. The IND (E, F) line was joined to the J, M, Z line via a tunnel under Archer Avenue in Jamaica. The result was the cutitng back of the BMT line's terminus, which used to be 168th Street, and moving part of that elevated line underground in the area. Someone will undoubtably be able to both elaborate, correct me if need be, and give a year (1980's, I think) and further detail.
I'll leave the matter of the Bronx to its natives on SubTalk.
The upper Level is the J/Z Broadway Bklyn, and the Lower is the E-Queens Blvd. Read your map Teach,
Actually, the E is on the UPPER level at Jamaica Center, and the J and Z are on the LOWER level.
David
My point was that the new(er than the original lines) Archer Ave. tunnel allowed IND (E,F) and Bklyn/Bway trains (J,Z) to share a street which they formerly did not, allowing direct transfers between the two lines, and that the Bway/Bklyn line in the area used to be elevated, with a stop further east at 168th Street -- creating a shared destination for 2 formerly competing lines. Maybe I should have been more specific, but I've been to Parsons/Archer, and I do know about the 2 different levels, even without my map.
[I think Mr. Rosa refers to Archer Avenue in Queens. The IND (E, F) line was joined to the J, M, Z line via a tunnel under Archer Avenue in Jamaica. The result was the cutitng back of the BMT line's
terminus, which used to be 168th Street, and moving part of that elevated line underground in the area. Someone will undoubtably be able to both elaborate, correct me if need be, and give a year
(1980's, I think) and further detail.]
It opened in 1988. What is significant about that year, as you might have gathered from my back-and-forth with Chris R16, is that it was more than a decade after the demolition of the Jamaica El left Jamaica without subway service.
[Pete, what train is the Archer Ave Line? I haven't a clue. Since you and Larry seem to know a lot about the Bronx maybe you can answer another question for me. I recently put a tape I own of the movie called "A Bronx Tale". I believe this Italian section portrayed was either Arthur Avenue or the Fordham area. Are they similar and is this area still mainly Italian-American. As a proud Dago myself I am interested in knowing if these Italian neighborhoods still exist in the Bronx or have they gone by the boards as they have elsewhere in New York City.]
I haven't been up to the Arthur Avenue area in several years but as far as I know it's still doing okay. It's a far more vibrant neighborhood than Manhattan's Little Italy, which has nearly ceased to exist as a residential area and today is little more than a couple of blocks of lousy restaurants along Mulberry Street. How much longer Arthur Avenue can continue to maintain its distinct identity is another matter, now that immigration from Italy has almost entirely dried up. But so far, so good.
Thanks Pete. The rest of the guys gave me Archer Avenue up the giggie but nothing on the Arthur Avenue part of the question. My next question is which subway bisects Arthur Avenue?
>>>My next question is which subway bisects Arthur Avenue? <<<
There really is no subway line that bisects the Belmont section. It usually involves a Xfer to a bus from either the "D" concourse line or the "2/5" West Farms Station.
Peace,
Andee
Can't get to Belmont on the subway without a long walk. It developed along the 3rd Avenue El.
>>>...section portrayed was either Arthur Avenue or the Fordham area. <<<
This area is known as the Belmont section (It's how Dion and the Belmonts, the doo-wop group from the early 60s got their name) and yes, it is still going strong.
Peace,
Andee
It is possible to be both white and liberal and free of guilt about either of these things.
This is directly proportional to the NYPD's curtailment of the Street Crimes unit after the Diallo accidental shooting. I'm hoping that the when the political pressure dies down, aggressive policing will once again be allowed. The crime rate should then drop back down.
[re increased murder rate in the Bronx]
[This is directly proportional to the NYPD's curtailment of the Street Crimes unit after the Diallo accidental shooting. I'm hoping that the when the political pressure dies down, aggressive policing will once again be allowed. The crime rate should then drop back down.]
It might be more complicated than that. According to the _Times_ article, most of the murders now occuring in the Bronx and elsewhere in the City not only are drug related, but occur indoors and involve people who know one another. The percentage of murders which are these so-called "acquaintance murders" is higher than in recent years, and they account for most of the increase. It is difficult for the police to fight crimes of this sort, no matter how aggressive their tactics may be.
If there's a silver lining, it's that drug-related murders in ghetto tenements aren't as likely to scare off tourists and business investors as are street crimes in Midtown Manhattan. As long as the latter type of crime doesn't begin to increase, the City's economy shouldn't suffer too much.
Then I stay by my original belief---that The Bronx is mostly a human cesspool.
I guess you haven to Calcutta
No Brighton Beach Bob and I don;t intend to go there. I would like to see Bombay, though. I hear it;s a nice city. When I finally get back to Europe some day, I want to visit Eastern Europe. The last time I was on that continent the Commies still controlled things and we were confined to Western Europe.
Because most people either don't read past the first few paragraphs in a news story or listen past the opening headlines on TV or radio, all they will hear is that the murder rate is going back up in New York. The breakdown on locations will be ignored and it will be a public relations setback for the city.
If it turns out the only place murders are going up is in the area where the Diallo shooting took place, then you get into a different argument about policing practices and whether or not the South Bronx can have lower murder rates with less police enforcement. That may be something for the 2001 mayoral candidates to debate.
[Because most people either don't read past the first few paragraphs in a news story or listen past the opening headlines on TV or radio, all they will hear is that the murder rate is going back up in New
York. The breakdown on locations will be ignored and it will be a public relations setback for the city.]
Yes, that's all too true. Even back in the Koch and Dinkins years when the murder rate was at its peak, the danger to tourists, suburban commuters, and middle- and upper-class city residents wasn't terribly high. Then as now, many of the murders were drug-related and were concentrated in the ghetto. But that didn't matter too much. People got the idea that Midtown at noon on a business day was like the Shootout at the O.K. Corral, and the city's economy and image suffered mightily.
[If it turns out the only place murders are going up is in the area where the Diallo shooting took place, then you get into a different argument about policing practices and whether or not the South Bronx
can have lower murder rates with less police enforcement. That may be something for the 2001 mayoral candidates to debate.]
From what I've heard, the Bronx is indeed the area with the greatest increase in murder rates, but they've gone up to a lesser extent in southern Queens, parts of Brooklyn, and, oddly, Staten Island.
[Upper West Side wannabes would be right on their heels]
What a ghastly thought.
Fred, you have been in Arcadia too long. To much suburbs for you.Remember LA is not a big city in the way as the Midwest and East Coast. The Bronx is not as bad as it was 20 years ago, but not as good as it was in the 40s and 50s when our families lived there.
Hey good buddy: I am very comfortable in Arcadia and plan to stay as long as possible, but I do admit to a depressing reminder of what I saw in the Bronx last summer. Nothing there even remotely gave me the impression that things were getting better. The places I saw were dingy and run down, and the people seemed indifferent at best. As far as LA is concerned, I think light rail would be feasable and it would go a long way to alleviating the choking traffic on those damn freeways. Say what you will about New York, but they have a great transportation system, although their highways are also crowded.
I Love Arcadia and the Foothills where the air is so GREY
Fred, you have been in Arcadia too long. To much suburbs for you.Remember LA is not a big city in the way as the Midwest and East Coast. The Bronx is not as bad as it was 20 years ago, but not as good as it was in the 40s and 50s when our families lived there. Remember old in LA is 25 years old. and they tear things down, ancient is from the Post WWII area.
You double posted old friend. Or did you just want to rub it in a little extra. Chao.
Morris PArk, Riverdale and parts of Woodlawn and Parkchester resemble some of the better neighborhoods in Queens, Brooklyn and SI. Heck, Morris Park is almost identical to Bensonhurst.
As if Bensonhurst was so great.
It's one of the nicest sections of Brooklyn. Even though immigrants (mostly asian) have moved in, it's still as nice as it was 35-40 years ago.
Since I'm relatively young, I'd vote for 1988-89, as far as the years I've witnessed. These 2 years saw the first new stations and lines opening in 30 years. The elimination of grafitti and the ending of the disastrous "deferred maintenance" policy helped the subway system to rebound to a new glory age in the 1990's.
I might revise this if I gve it the thought the subject deserves, but my gut instinct says 1928.
Yes, I know none of the IND was running yet, which would knock 1928 out of the box in most people's books, but in the late '20s the BMT and IRT were near their greatest extent; the entire street railway industry in New York was young and vibrant.
Why 1928 in particular? The Stock Market Crash in 1929 cast a pall over the economy and the industry from which it never recovered. 1928 was the last year, if you lived then and had a crystal ball, that you could have enjoyed the systems in their unshadowed glory.
I was just going to suggest that very same year. The 14th St.- Canarsie line had just been completed and all the Els were still standing.
True, but no IND lines were open yet. How about 1938, where a large percentage of the IND was open and all the els were still standing?
I WOULD NOT TURN DOWN THE OPPERTUNITY TO ENTER A ""TIME TUNNEL""
to re visit the hi and low v irt cars in thier peak operation ........
the first year of the brand new R-1 s ......... even the first ""R"" s to run the flushing #7 line !!!!!!!
how about the first time far rockway train ??? the original Q-J KK CC 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 9...........
NOW IT WORKS LIKE THIS I GO BACK IN TIME WITH MY SONY TRV 66 8 MM VIDIEO CAMERA
15 8 MM VIDIEOTAPES AND ALL OF THE BATTERIES I NEED !!!!!!!!
man!!!!!!! could you see me with my tripod and camera propped against all of the RAILFAN WINDOWS..
and the sounds of the pre world war 2 subway classic cars making SWEET MUSICAL SOUNDS !!!!
and with O LIGHT LUX vidieotography it would be a breeze !!!
THEN AFTER THAT I WOULD TRANSPORT BACK TO THIS TIME WITH MY COLLECTION !!!!
now that folks would be ideal !!!!!!!!! the 1960s would be alright with me !!!!
03/14/2000
Salaam,
When you go back into that time tunnel with your video equipment, stay clear of the BMT Bluebird, Green Hornet, Multi-Section and Zephry. They had transverse cabs!
Bill Newkirk
I know I wouldn't mind going back in time for something like that.
EAT YOU HEART OUT, I was a kid way back then and wasn't awear that the train I was on was going to Far Rock. I was coming home from a trip to C.I. amusement park, late afternoon, during the rush hour. I was on a R/1 type "E" in the lead car. It was crowded and a little feastive. They had railfans back then too! Any way some body told me it was the first passenger train to wave crest, so I stayed on for the ride just to one up my older brother,he was envious and my parents were pissed. I got home to South Ozone Park a tad Late. It was worth it. Those grown up wouln'd let me near the front door.I can almost hear the compressor running now , the high pitch brass whistle.
Rattan seats. Olive drab interior. Incandesant lamps. Hugh open air fans. Brass fire extinguishers in every car. ahhhhhhhhhhh the memories
avid
The High Volts in the 3000s did not have rail fan windows.
Yeah...I'd like to climb into HG Wells' time machine and go back to the late 20s, early 30s and ride all the els and trolleys. If only the physics books could be rewritten to allow for a little time travel.
One problem, though...
No rock and roll and very little air conditioning in 1928! I'd have to bring all my tapes and a walkman.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Subways could be pretty bad on the worst summer days, but, especially on the larger BMT and IND cars, the movement of air from vents, fans and open windows made most rides quite bearable. It wasn't nearly as bad as younger people might imagine.
When the TA brought in the R15s and R16s (IIRC) with Axiflow fans which blasted you with hot air from their enclosed plenums, the situation became worse. And, of course, the addition of air conditioned trains made conditions worse in the non a/c fleet.
And nothing beat the air conditioning on the convertible el cars and trolleys.
[Subways could be pretty bad on the worst summer days, but, especially on the larger BMT and IND cars, the movement of air from vents, fans and open windows made most rides quite bearable. It wasn't nearly as bad as younger people might imagine.]
And I suppose that people didn't mind non-air-conditioned trains back then because *nothing* was air-conditioned! You can't miss something you've never experienced.
Air conditioning is better. Even though people are saying the stations are hotter, in nearly all cases, a much larger span of time is spent on the trains. Overall, it's better.
The R-142/142A and R-143 cars (and probably everything to come in after them) will have a feature that should turn down the heat in subway stations during the summer. On the present equipment (R-110A and 110B excluded), the energy expended during dynamic braking is turned into heat that is dissipated by resistor grids under the car. Heat rises, so the heat from the grids hits people on the platform on its way up. The new cars (and the R-110A and 110B) have regenerative braking, under which some of the energy used in braking is returned to the third rail. The cars still have resistor grids, but not as many, and they shouldn't get as much use as the grids on the present cars do.
David
There area actually very few hot stations. In the outer boroughs, the stations are cooler than the street in summer. It's only the Manhattan main line stations that really heat up, because there is so much traffic.
I'd like to see a realistic temperature measurement at the end of the next big heat wave. Perahaps we can't afford to AC all the stations, but we might be able to do something about the really hot ones.
W4th changed after the mezzinine was built up , taking the side the grates had been.Most other stations will show some changes this summer.14th st has lost stairs, mezzinine space and surface exits.
The station renovations really look nice, but the temperature and tempers will rise!
Ask a firefighter what is the FIRST thing they do VENTILATE!!!!
In the old days before ac cars were not dumping heat into the tunnels and stations, and the stations had more stairs and exits, even if they were gated and locked, air could still move.
Blessed is the one who takes that heat energy and converts it for use to expell the excess heat to Con Ed.
DONT GO TO ATLANTA !!!! especially during those hot JOHN ROCKER days !!!!!!!
FORGET IT !!!!!! the air conditioning on the MARTA RAIL CARS did not cool you off at all !!!
YOU HAD TO STAND UNDER THE VENT ALMOST IN-BETWEEN THE CARS
and at the end where the transverse cab is half open ( but not closed off )............
if you had been there you would know what i mean !!!!
finally !!!! some cool air BUT NOT THAT GOOD !!!!!!!!
DONT GO TO ATLANTA !!!! especially during those hot JOHN ROCKER days !!!!!!!
FORGET IT !!!!!! the air conditioning on the MARTA RAIL CARS did not cool you off at all !!!
YOU HAD TO STAND UNDER THE VENT ALMOST IN-BETWEEN THE CARS
and at the end where the transverse cab is half open ( but not closed off )............
if you had been there you would know what i mean !!!!
finally !!!! some cool air BUT NOT THAT GOOD !!!!!!!! ..
I wonder what John (off his) Rocker has to say about MARTA....
We have two leading contenders for the greatest year in NY transit history:
1928, before the IND but near the peak for nationwide peacetime transit ridership.
1939, with the core of the IND in operation (having replaced a couple of duplicative els) and PCCs on the street, but with the IRT and BMT another decade older and deeper in debt.
I vote for 1939, depression or no. What say you?
[We have two leading contenders for the greatest year in NY transit history:
1928, before the IND but near the peak for nationwide peacetime transit ridership.
1939, with the core of the IND in operation (having replaced a couple of duplicative els) and PCCs on the street, but with the IRT and BMT another decade older and deeper in debt.
I vote for 1939, depression or no. What say you?]
I'll also go for 1939. The IND is just too important for me to select a year when it didn't yet exist.
It's a toosup for me between 1939 and 1938 -- It depends on if I want a system with the Sixth Ave. subway or the Sixth Ave. el. Having the full Manhattan Railway el system minus a couple of spur lines in enticing, but that does limit service into Brooklyn and Queens. Plus you get those great new IRT World's Fair cars if you pick `39, plus the IND spur along the Van Wyck ROW.
You're right. Now that I think about it the pre-war
cars with the ceiling fans, vents, and open windows
were never that bad, even in the worst heatwave. But
the postwar non-airconditioned trains could be
brutal in the summer. Also the small deskfan type
fans on the R-10's and R-12's were never as good as
the ceiling fans.
Although I who forego air conditioning in my house, and in my car, on environmental/cost grounds, I'm damn glad you have AC on the subway. You aren't pressed against people on all sides in your house, in your car, or on the platform. That might happen on the subway.
The hottest I get on the subway is in winter when I am wearing a coat, hat and warm clothes, am crush loaded, and the heat is on.
The year in the 30s or 40s when subways, els, NY Central, LIRR (before they started shutting stations on the latter two) and trolleys were at their greatest coverage. Anyone know what year that was?
Another year I'd cite was 1989, the year that the graffiti problem was defeated for good.
www.forgotten-ny.com
That's the year I would choose also -- the system at its greatest extent, including subways, trolleys, els, and commuter rail service.
I'm sure maintenance wasn't the best in the Depression, but then again in some ways the NYC subway system started declining after WWI as a result of inflation and the rise of auto ownership. Railroads were also in decline due to competition from trucks in the 1920s, even though they improved in other ways. So it seems there was no sterling peak everywhere. The system was still expanding even as parts of it began to decline. After WWII, however, you began to lose parts of the system -- trolleys, els, commuter rail stops, the Putnam division, etc.
Lets check some nationwide data from the Historical Statistics of the United States:
Railroads, maximum miles of track operated, 1930.
Maximum railroad passengers: 1920
Maximum railroad commuter passengers: 1929
Public transit railway passengers, surface: 1944 (peactime 1936)
Public transit railway passengers, subway & el: 1946
Note: trolley traffic peaked at 9.5 billion, subway/el at 2.8 billion
Public transit bus passengers: 1948
Trolley coach passengers: 1949
Total public transit revenue passengers: 1946
Public transit railway track: ? 1934, the first year of data, is the highest.
In WWII and immediately afterward, gas rationing and the shutdown of car production forced people back onto transit. I'm not sure than should count. I guess nationally I'd have to go with Paul: 1928. But we may need to get the Queens Boulevard Line built (one that did not duplicate or replace other lines) to get a peak in NY and environs
October 27th 1904.
The other day, I was heading to 66th Street and Columbus Avenue from the east side. I figured the best way to go would be to take the cross-town bus through the park and transfer to the B or C Local at CPW. I decided to get off at 72nd street, figuring that the south end of the station would have an exit which would bring me a bit closer to my destination. (I was already aware of the exit on 72nd, next to The Dakota.) To my surprise, I found only vestiges of an exit there at the front of the platform! They had even gone so far as to replace most of the tiles beneath the mosaics along the length of the platform wall, which tell you a street number and which direction to walk. From this, I could only conclude that the exit was closed for good.
Wouldn't it have made more sense to leave that exit open, owing to the fact that the stretch between 59th & 72nd Streets is a much longer stretch than between 72nd & 81st. In other words, they should have evened-out access to the subway. As it was, I had to walk from the front of the platform all the way back to the rear of the platform to exit, and then walk back down CPW. (I'm young, its no big deal, but I'm talking about the logic here.)
When I lived in Queens, I used to notice all of the closed exits in the IND stations there, but I thought that was just an outer-borough getting the shaft again during budget-cuts. But since then, I've noticed the above, as well as, now that I think of it, that there used to be a 47th street exit from the 50th Street stop on the 8th Ave. IND. There, they've even built a wall hiding the former exit, tiled it up, and also removed all but one set of the street-number-and-arrow-tile arrangements. As a matter of fact, a week or two ago, I actually got off the C train, saw the tile sign pointing me toward 47th street, and began walking that way to leave the subway!
Correction:
At 50th St. on the 8th Ave. IND, it was the E train platform, lower level, uptown, where I saw the tiles pointing me to the 47th Street exit.
Has anybody noticed any other strange entrance/exit closings worth commenting about?
The 56th Street entrance to the Northern Boulevard station:
Closed, but not forgotten: there are still refrences to it on the tiles.
The 63rd Street entrance to the 65th Street station:
Ditto.
Hey, I just realized that we now have sort of "half-closed" exits. With the advent of metrocard, there are some places where no token-booth attendant may be on duty 24/7, but you can enter "backwards" through the whatever-you-call-the-revolving-door-type-exits any time if you have a metrocard. The 34th Avenue exit of Steinway Street (Queens IND) is one. Another way technology continually reshapes the subway!
They're called High Turnstiles. They can also be called Iron Maidens, or since they're made from it, Stainless Steel Maidens, but I prefer...
Metro Maiden
The official Name:
HEET: High Entrance/ Exit Turnstiles
HET: High Exit Turnstile.
Unofficially both are referred to as "High Wheels"( A "Wheel" is transit speak for a turnstile.)
Had occasion to use the HEET at Steinway & 34th Ave tonite, circa 9PM. No token booth on duty, but heinous graffiti already adorning said HEET. One drawback to added convenience without supervision. Sad.
KP
Wish we had one at the north end of both platforms at Aquaduct/No.Conduit . It or they would solve a very big and very serious safety problem. The original grand stands of the old track were closer to the station. Rebuilding it and the TA rake over made the current token booth the furthest from the public. It's right on North Conduit Ave, which is a four lane service road to the Belt. During the Rush hours, some people are dropped or picked up at the No. Conduit end. This Causes traffic delays when dropping off riders. The worst part is in the evening when riders are picked up,because of the NO PARKING EVER, drivers choose to pull up and park on the sidewalks. I've counted as many as four cars parked on and blocking the sidewalks. The best part is when they attempt to leave, by driving across four lanes of rush hour traffic to make a left turn across Cohancy ST. overpass.
The iron maidens are only unlocked during Racing season , 6:00 am thru 9:00 pm .
The north end would be a safer pickup point all year long and an entrance (iron maiden) on the North bound platform would save neighboring riders about a half mile walk.
I doubt if this will ever come to pass, it has a little logic to it.
avid avid.
I believe it all a matter of cleaning and maintainence and safety. Cut mezzenines in half or less, eliminate stairs and passage ways, gets you less area to clean, patrol and reduces potential crime spots.
That doesn,t mean its the best logic for area service,but reduced to the station it may.
avid
Yeah, I knew the reasons (safety, less maintenance, less to staff), but I was simply wondering why one exit may have been chosen over another, and why some places still have all there access points and some don't. I've heard discussed on several fan-trips the re-configuration of the subway system here and there. Mostly, I guess, I'm fascinated by things that aren't there anymore. I'm somewhat of an "avid reader" about things transit, etc., myself, but I also like to post here to get other points of view, or rememberances.
Cheers!
KP
The longest IND exit that isn't there any more is the mezzanine level passage which once connected the 34th Street and 42nd Street (6th Ave) stations. It had street entrances at 38th Street, which is the reason it was built - to replace the 38 St stop of the 6th Avenue el. Entering at 38th, you could walk two blocks north or 3 blocks south underground to enter the system.
This passage was closed in the late 70's or early 80's, as I recall. It had become a home to many homeless, but the catalyst which led to its closing was a murder in the tunnel. I don't recall whether one of the "residents" was involved, either as victiim or perp, but that was the final straw - it was closed soon after.
The stairways at 38th are gone and invisible from street level. Walls were built to seal off the passage. There are doors in the center of the mezzanine ends at the north end of 34th St station (north side 35th St) and south end of 42 St station (south side 40th St). They are are sometimes left open for employee access, and from occasional glimpses, it appears the TA has built a huge storage/work area in the passage. Image what you can store in a space 5 blocks long, the full width of an avenue.
While not strictly an IND passage, there was also a pedestrian tunnel under 33rd St connecting the 34th St-6th Av station to the IRT 33rd Street-Penn Station stop. Closed about the same time as the long mezzanine, the east end of this tunnel can be seen as a padlocked black metal door just, south of the new elevator between 34th and 33rd. The west end has been hidden behind new tiling as part of the recent renovations on the IRT end. This tunnel also had direct access to Gimbels (now Manhattan Mall), the Pennsylvania Hotel and, of course, Penn Station.
Before the realignment of the fare controls at Herald Square, it was possible to walk outside of fare control from the north to south end of that station. Thus, once upon a time, you could go downstairs at 40th & 6th, and emerge at the SW corner of Penn Station at 31st & 8th, 9 blocks south and 2 blocks west. This was undoubtedly the longest free underground walk in New York!
Thanks! I'll have to do some exploring.
Are there any books which document these types of things. If not, you should write one! There seems to be volumes on the rolling stock and where the lines take you, but not so much on the other parts of the infrastructure and how its changed.
BTW, isn't there a tunnel connecting the West Side IRT and IND @ 14th street which can still be seen, closed off?
The 8th ave to 7th ave tunnel exists but is now behind plywood.
Other closed exits: Howard AVe (Ralph ave A line), Broome St (Delancey J Line), Classon Ave (Franklin A Line- even tile is gone), 94th st (96 C Line). A check of the station-by-station pages will list those we know about.
Oh yes-- Metropolitan Grand G line is the latest addition. Only the Metropolitan exit remains. The Grand exit is now closed although work satirs remain fromt he platform,and the middle mezzanine is the Brooklyn Transit Bureau Task Force location and storage and employee facillities.
(Closed walkway the full width of an avenue several blocks long.
They should re-open the 6th Avenue walkway. The way to do it is to make the walkway 20 feet wide, and convert the other 80 feet to stores, restaurants, and entertainment. Great place for a nightclub -- out of sight, out of mind, and you take the train home.
That is a good idea!
Peace,
Andee
Or, perhaps you are thinking of the connection within the fare control between the Sixth Ave. IND at 14th Street with the IRT at Seventh Ave.
>>>This passage was closed in the late 70's or early 80's,...<<<
This passage was closed in 1990 as part of the renovation of the 34th Street station.
Peace,
Andee
>> This passage was closed in the late 70's or early 80's,... <<
>>> This passage was closed in 1990 as part of the renovation of the 34th Street station. >>>
Just ran a NEXIS search in NYTimes. You're right, it closed a lot later than I thought and even a little later than you said. Seems
a woman was raped in the passage in 1991 - closed soon after.
I must have associated it with the closing of the Herald Square to Penn Station passage under 33rd, which definitely closed earlier. Any idea when? Maybe when Gimbels closed?
I'm not even sure this passage was NYCTA owned/controlled - it might have been private, what with the hotel and department store basement entrances off it. If I recall correctly, it had doors to close it off at night - metal and glass, kind of like dept store type doors - very unsubwaylike.
Speaking of closed passageways, I saw this morning a sign in the 34th Street B/D/F/Q/N/R station saying that the passageway to the PATH terminal would be closed during the overnight hours starting (IIRC) in May. PATH access will be through the entrances near 32nd Street. This is the passageway that runs along the west side of the station outside the fare control zone. It has long been used as a bedroom (and sometimes restroom) by legions of skells, so its closing is long overdue.
I would imagine that the relatively long wait for implementation is to allow for istallation of gates or other means of closing off the passageway.
>>>I must have associated it with the closing of the Herald Square to Penn Station passage under 33rd, which definitely closed earlier. Any idea when? Maybe when Gimbels closed?<<<
Yes, that passage has been closed and walled off. It used to be at the 33rd Street entrance to the IRT. It did close before Gimbels closed.
Peace,
Andee
I seem to remember that you had to go upstairs at 35th St. and re-enter at 34th St. Either that or pay a fare at the Herald Square station. The 35th-to-40th St. passage did not connect to the main unpaid area of the Herald Square station.
True, the passage was outside of fare control in its last days.
Peace,
Andee
I was out photographing a couple of days ago along the LIRR's Main Line from Deer Park to Ronkonkoma. I know that when the line to Ronkonkoma was electrified in the 1980's, several stations in the area were moved and Pineaire was eliminated. Does anyone have the exact configuration before and after electrification? I took a couple of pictures of the old abandoned stations which can be found here . Did I miss any other abandoned stations?
Thanks,
Bob Andersen
This take a bit of sorting out, and I'm not 100% certain, but...
I would say the first picture is former Brentwood station (if you'd give the street coordinates, it would help).
Is the second picture adjacent to the Agway on L.I. Avenue? Then it is old Central Islip.
Both Brentwood and C.I. Stations were shifted east for the electrification. Current Brentwood station was originally planned to be Brentwood/Central Islip but the communities rebelled.
Current Deer Park station is really Pineaire. They named it thus to prevent the Deer Park people from thinking they were losing their station. Old Pineaire station, IIRC, was just west of the Sagtikos Parkway, a little east of so-called Deer Park. AFAIK, Pineaire did not have a station house in modern times.
You missed a photo of the real (and abandoned) Deer Park station, which is now referred to on radio as "Old Deer Park." It is on the north side of the right-of-way just east of Deer Park Avenue. I think the freight house might still be active.
Thanks Paul. I guess I'll have to take another trip out there next weekend!
[I would say the first picture is former Brentwood station (if you'd give the street coordinates, it would help).]
I second that. Enough background is visible to make it clear that it's not Pineaire.
The first picture is definitely Brentwood -- looking north at the
station building from the parking lot. I used to use this station a lot when on the way home from high school in NYC -- though I lived in Brightwaters. My next-door neighbor was an engineer on a Ronkonkoma diesel, so I'd ride in the loco cab to Brentwood, and then take the Suffolk Bus Corporation bus to Sears shopping center in Bay Shore, a couple blocks from home.
The second one, I cannot vouch for as I never used CI.
Original Pine-Aire was just EAST of Sagtikos Parkway, at the foot of Manatuck Boulevard (name?) and it never had a station house, just a little shed and a bumpy concrete/macadam platform. There's just a wisp of it still left.
The Red Brick building is the former Brentwood station; the little building is near Central Islip. There's an abandoned station buinding near Deer Park Avenue too.
Wayne
[Original Pine-Aire was just EAST of Sagtikos Parkway, at the foot of Manatuck Boulevard (name?) and it never had a station house, just a little shed and a bumpy concrete/macadam platform. There's just a wisp of it still left.]
You still can see part of the sign that was posted to announce the station's closing.
Thanks Paul, Peter, Steve and Wayne, for straightening that out.
Bob
No one has ever confused a Metro station with an art gallery. But maybe that'll happen soon.
The City of Helsinki, Finland, is donating an artwork, which will spend the next month on display at the Dupont Circle station.
Starting Tuesday, you can see the piece, which depicts the northern lights. The sound of trains will compete with the sound of chirping Finnish song birds that accompanies the piece.
Where are they putting it - in the entranceway or down on the platform?
There are a few Metro stations with artwork - Gallery Place on the Green/Yellow comes to mind, so does Archives/Navy Mem'l.
Wayne
Not sure. I'll see it on March 27 when I make a trip to celebrate Metrorail's 24th birthday, get pics, and let you all know what it is.
I know the system is unified so don't rain on my parade. I have a good poll contest to take. Which service is king? The Ind, IRT or the BMT. And why? Anyone who knows my handle knows where my vote goes.
Well, delving back into history.
The BMT was king of technology and innovation.
The IND was king of engineering.
The IRT was king of volume, volume, volume.
Since I grew up in Ridgewood halfway between the Canarsie line and the Myrtle Ave. El, there's no contest - BMT!
Attaboy Bob. I know there are a few of us out there who knows what's what.
IRT! It is the only system to venture to almost every part of the city. The only boroughs it doesn't hit are Queens (except for Flushing) and Staten Island (but then again, none of them do).
The BMT had the Standards, Triplexes, Multis, Green Hornet, Zephyr and Bluebirds....
www.bmt-lines.com
The IND-BMT win the award for comfort (especially in the years between 1967-80 when the air conditioning retrofit program began) and function, with the wider cars and more doors per train, while the IRT has overall had the more reliable cars (fewer cracked trucks) and lines (fewer cracked bridges) over the years.
The IND used to have the edge on speed, but in the era of the R-68s, the IRT now wins on that front, though the jury is still out on how the R-142s will affect that situation.
The IND wins for design and operation. The BMT wins for ingenuity and creativity, especially with it's rolling stock. The IRT comes in dead last. Boring cars, and the smaller dimensions assure that.
(The IRT comes in dead last) I think the IRT deserves more respect.
The IRT wins for the best locations. It got there first, and took the most dense business districts and other activity centers. The IRT goes to Wall Street, Grand Central, Time Square, Yankee Stadium, Shea Stadium, and Madison Square Garden, South Ferry, Penn Station, and Atlantic Terminal. The only places of major importance it doesn't go to are Coney Island which, of course, is not as important as it used to be, and the airports, which none of the systems serve.
Therefore, the IRT moves more people with fewer stations and less trackage. And that means IRT service is the most frequent. BMT waits are longer. So are IND waits, except on Queens Boulevard.
The IRT also has a balanced network between the east and west sides -- if the IND had put a line on the east side (replace, say, the 3rd Avenue El instead of the 6th Avenue El) we wouldn't be in need of a $10 billion subway today.
The IRT express trains move faster than any others in the system, when rush hour crowding doesn't slow them down. The B division cars might have moved along in the past -- they crawl now.
The IRT gets credit for putting at least a 3rd track just about everywhere. The BMT dropped the ball on the 14th St -- Eastern line, and the IND wasted half the Queens Boulevard tracks by not sending them to Manhattan.
The IRT built tunnels, as did the IND. The BMT chose cheaper bridge crossings over the Manhattan and Willie B, and would have gone over the Queensborough if the City had let them. In the long run, lets just say the tunnels turned out better.
Finally, the orignial IRT stations were designed with aesthetic appeal in mind. You can say that about some of the BMT stations, but not all. For the IND, form follows function, but Art Deco apartment buildings from the same era are a lot easier on the eyes. No one would ever confuse the West 4th Street station with Radio City Music Hall, even though both were built for the masses.
The IRT built tunnels, as did the IND. The BMT chose cheaper bridge crossings over the Manhattan and Willie B, and would have gone over the Queensborough if the City had let them...
But then the IRT beat them the toe Queensboro :-)
Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love the IRT....
Double Bravo!!!! I love the BMT.
I say the BMT, it had more diversity in the cars. The IND only had 2 types of equipment for the first 40 years The R1-9 and the R 10(The R 1-9 was basically the same car, with some modifications) The Low Volts and the High Volts were uncomfortable. The BMT Hands down, especially the Brighton which had bothe the Triplex and Standards Running on the same line 6 days a week.
Good work #1 Bob. Couldn't have said it better myself. Get that book called "Cars of the BMT". There are some great shots of the Brighton Triplex and Standard cars. My Sea Beach is well represented as well.
I have had it for years
Come on Chris, you're running around Robin Hood's barn. Take a stand and make a decision. You're sounding like Al Gore.
Gore will be better then Bush anytime, Now get off the Politics.
IRT, especially the original line up from the battery and over the present shuttle and up Broadway, wins for the original Heins & LaFarge station designs.
Original BMT /IND Vickers mosaics are no slouches and the IND color code system has its efficient moments but my vote goes with the original line for decor.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I like the IRT-- charming stations, curves-some very tight, elevated sections on every line (except Shuttle to Grand Central). Second Place goes to BMT due to the Open cut sections, and The J line with the Willie B and the famous Crescent Street Curve.
IND gets the last place due to the bland stations although that is starting to be addressed.All that the original IND has going for it is Smith/9th. Rockaway was the former BMT FUlton El (Lefferts section) and LIRR (Rockaway Park/ Far Rockaway).
IRT, because I've rode all the IRT lines and only the N/R for the other divsions. So, basically I don't know how good the other divisions are.
BMT RULES!
Of course I'm being bias here, but it was the BMT that set the 'standards' (pardon the pun) for rapid transit operation and car design.
Also, most BMT ROW offer some of the most scenic rides (outside of Staten Island) you can get within the confines of the five boroughs.
The IND comes in a far second, with IRT lagging in the distance, third.
Doug aka BMTman
I would like to know about the changes when the Manhattan Bridge Broadway tracks reopen will the "N" train run through this connection again including the "Q" train also but will they run Express on Broadway. If I am correct the "W" train will run along Astoria to Whitehall St it will replace "N" along to Whiehall. And the "V" will replace "Q" along 6 Avenue. (Possible the "M" train will resume back to Brighton line and terminate at C.I.)
Only this:will the "W" run during rush hours only.
and will the "V" operate during rush hour and middays only or 24 Hours daily.(But from what place will the "V" operate to along 6 Avenue.)
OK, everybody scream together:
NOBODY KNOWS! THERE IS NO PLAN YET!
{frustration mode: OFF}
I know, but I'm not tellin!!!!
Ve haf vays ov making you talk ....
Ok, enough with the soft cushions. Bring on the......comfy chair!
Thank goodness, a Monty Python Fan......anyway The TA has plans, but just like the new cars that are being delivered, they will be modified in some way before placed into service.....
Brighton-Dyre, now where do those trains connect?
In some IND 2nd system plans, the 2nd Ave line would've connected to both lines.
I would like to know about the changes when the Manhattan Bridge Broadway tracks reopen will the "N" train run through this connection again including the "Q" train also but will they run Express on Broadway. If I am correct the "W" train will run along Astoria to Whitehall St it will replace "N" along to Whiehall. And the "V" will replace "Q" along 6 Avenue. (Possible the "M" train will resume back to Brighton line and terminate at C.I.)
Only this:will the "W" run during rush hours only.
and will the "V" operate during rush hour and middays only or 24 Hours daily.(But from what place will the "V" operate to along 6 Avenue.) But I will like to know when will this really open. (some people say it will be in 2001 or 2003 I don't get it.)
No one knows about service plans when 63rd Street Connecter opens in 2001 at the earliest. Dave, is it possible to put at the top of the board something that says "What will happen when the MannyB opens?". People could then click on it instead of posting it. This and several other questions are getting somewhat annoying because they are asked every other day.
The IRT had a bad day today. They had signal and switch problems at 149. I was stuck on a train between 135/Lenox and 149/Concourse. The passengers started getting rowdy.
COntrol was strangely silent- it seemed like a comedy of errors. TSSs and SUperintendents were yaking back and forth to control and two stuck trains. Finally we make it to 149 and still no news as to whether the train would go North or go back SOuth. The platform was very full-near mob conditions and no cops. Oh yes- a Southbound 4 went out of service at Mt Eden due to door problems and the 5 ended at 3rd ave (later to be 149 upper).
Unfortuntately, I chose the IRT as my subway of the day this morning. I ended up crush loaded for the first time in a while. I let one train go at Grand Army, but after Atlantic Ave the second train was just as bad. A woman who couldn't quite get in the door used her big handbag to shove me into the other passengers, who refused to give way.
Passengers were merely touching, not smushing, after Hoyt.
My 3 train was held up at Bergen, Atantic, and Nevins. Nevins was not as bad as I thought that it would be because a 5 came in and passengers came off but knew better than to board the train. Except for this one man who pushed his way to the middle and got stuck there with nothing to hold on to. Serves him right!!!!!!!!!!
3TM
I'll say! We lay down outside of Mott Avenue without explanation or warning somewhere in the vicinity of 11:10AM and we didn't get off of that train (#8882 lead motor) until 12:05PM. That to me constitutes an unacceptable delay. We were watching the passengers in the train ahead get booted off at Mott and they were not happy campers, either on the platform or on our train. One guy on our train I thought he was going to blow a fuse. We were on our way up to 180th Street to get the Dyre Shuttle (yep, a G.O. in the midst of all this chaos) and we bailed out of the entire mess once we finally made it to Mott. The ride back to Manhattan aboard the "D" train was actually a relief.
Wayne
I can't resist asking this: was the heat on inside that Redbird?
There was a power outage it seems, at about 10AM this morning. A northbound deuce dropped dead before entering the station at Jackson Av. Service was restored and a GO was issued taking track 3 out of service from Mott Av to Freeman St. Trains ran single track through 3rd Av on the Southbound Platform. What a day to do a GO like this. There were backups everywhere! Switch problems just made a bad situation worse. I'd figure if they were going to do single track operation, they should have left it for the weekend. There seems to be too much patronage and far less convenience to even attempt this on the 2/5 on a given weekday. Even the 4 was a problem. So I imagined Mott Av was chaotic on both levels.
Even the work train was delayed through the area. The work train didn't enter Jackson Av until approximately noon.
Oh well! So much for comminication. I suppose personnel weren't ready to deal with it. T/Os were constantly calling the tower and control to find out what the heck was going on.
-Stef
That GO taking 3Track out of service sounds like it was in response to the power outage at Jackson, possibly to allow crews to find and fix the problem without having to clear the tracks for every train coming through. I really doubt that that kind of a GO was scheduled in advance for a Monday morning.
Talk about problems.... Any word on the cause of the outage? And why would the switches malfunction north of 149th and GC?
-Stef
Mott Avenue was a madhouse. We stayed at the FAR NORTH END until the situation stabilized. The train we were on (Flatbush 1018, OM #8882) sopped up the entire load headed northbound. It became sardines in short order. After waiting for the throng to clear out (which it eventually DID), we shuffled off to the #4 Line, abandoning our efforts to continue north towards Dyre Avenue. We figured it would be senseless to even try. What time did everything return to normal?
Wayne
The GO was in effect until 3PM. Things returned to normal afterward.
-Stef
I wish the transit authority keep some of the red birds in service, for a little bit longer. Don't you guys think so?
If there are enough R-142s to be ordered, including options taken, to replace each Redbird one-to-one, plus provide additional service, then goodbye Redbirds. Otherwise, an additional order must be fulfilled in order to achieve this.
In short, I don't agree
I grew up riding the trains back when they were painted silver with blue band,those were the days., What I'm trying to say is that these cars like the R17,21,22,26,28,29,33&R36'S mean alot to me they have
sentimental value to me. In my opinion the IRT will never be the same.
I guess I feel like earlier generation when the Lo V's were retired.
Maybe I'll feel the same when the R-62 will be gone, maybe I won't.
This is progress and in my opinon it sucks. Like you I grew up with all the older IRT series and really do not care for the new equipment the TA has been buying. I feel the same with way with the bus fleet I would reley on an old GM blitz more then one of the newer RTS buses think the artics are a joke and a waste of money. Can't really judge the new R142s yet since I have not seen one excecpt in pictures but will still bet on that the redbird fleet in the long run is more reliable.
see !!!!!!! thats what i am saying have the 142 s proven themselves READY FOR DAILY SERVICE yet ???
progress is only when shiny new things work better stronger and longer THAN THE OLD ( redbirds )
They might look better you know modern but who's to say if they are more reliable
This whole 'Redbirds are the best, R142 suck' thing is getting OLD AND STALE. Isn't anything ELSE 'wrong' or 'right'? Every day, the same 500 posts about 'When are the Redbirds being scrapped?' 'Don't scrap the Redbirds!' 'The R142 suck! They'll never last a week!' 'Bring back the Composites!'
ENOUGH!
-Hank
That is what this bord is all about. To talk about ALL kinds of tranist related issues
In this forum we come to share our thoughts
and hear our voices.. being a Redbird Lover,
I have to side myself with R-29 and redbird
in the mission of belief that the r-142's
have yet to prove their good will and intent.
If Salamallah's report is true, and if indeed
those r-142's techno's really FREEZE the cab
over, then it's one "get out of jail free"
card for the reds..
I'm up to meeting up with the fellow redbird
fans (redbird and r-29) since we seem to bleed
red blood and as they say, respete para que lo
respeten... respect to be respected.
Redbird4Life
my blood BLEEDS REDBIRD TOO !!!!!! scrap the 142 s !!!!!!
Scrap them? They should sell them
They should scrap cars all right, the REDBIRDS.
you got baaaaad attitude
-Michelle
pigs attitude is worst than bad !!! what if the r 142 s dont work ???? then the REDBIRDS are gone..........
now what do you do ?? bring all of the HARD WORKING MUSEUM TRAINS OUT OF MOTHBALLS ??
makes no sense to me !!!! a motorwoman told me HOW THE 110 b (s) FAILED !!!!!!!!!!!!
they could not make them work the contact shoes lifted off - POWER FAILURES !!!!!!!!
scrap all the redbirds ?????? bad attitude to me !!!
As opposed to your position of scrapping the 142 before it arrives? How is that NOT a bad attitude?
-Hank
has the r 142 passed all the tests ?????
These guys are incredible. They're totally contradicting each other, like Oscar and Felix!!!
-Stef
DO DO DO DO DO....
Or John Cleese and Michael Palin in Monty Python's Argument Clinic skit.-) No, you didn't, yes I did, no, you didn't, etc.
at least i dont flam like mr pig !! oink !! oink !!
In my opinion thier is no real major testing involved TA wants to see how the riding public likes the new cars I'm sure they will approve riding in a brand new train as apposed to riding in a train reaching it's 40th year in service in short TA is just looking to retire all old equipment
Bzzzzzzt! Wrong!
Part of the reason for the R-110 program was to gauge public opinion about certain features (such as seating configuration). That testing was over and done several years ago, and the R-142, R-142A, and R-143 are the result. The testing of the R-142 and R-142A pilot cars is very different. It's being done to familiarize train crews and maintenance personnel with the different parts and features, and to ensure that what was delivered is what was ordered -- that the components meet specifications and work as designed.
David
No major testing! The R-110 A and B were prototypes ordered to gauge passenger appeal, which led to the R-142 and 143. Much like the beloved BMT Bluebird, right?
Peace,
Andee
I may be off my perch at times, and may sound
pompous to some r-142'ers.. but my vote lies
with Salamallah in the case for keeping the
redbirds in the likely event that the 142s
come out jobbing worse than the latest WCW
effort..
Once a redbird lover,
always a redbird
lover..
The way it works is that Redbirds are put out of their misery after the R-142s are working in service. You and your Redbird Jihad are only fabricating arguments to support your illogical quest to keep your favorite fleet alive.
Some of us appriciate the redbird fleet if you don't like them then stay off the topic buttnut
Come on guys we're supose to have fun here not fight.
Using insults in an argument is like waving a white flag.
How reassuring... for me.
I like yor attitude 1 souht ferry 9
what if the r 142 s fail to work ???
Think the TA will still buy them anyway because they want to retire the redbirds They will deal with pretty much any problems they encounter as long as it is not to severe
then you will be stuck with USELESS JUNK !!!!
We're not complaining about you, are we? So why would we complain about the R-142 if they turned out that way?
elaborate complaining about what? I like the redbirds and would like to see them around unlike you and the HITECH BULL that seems to have the grip on reality
Grip on reality? HA! You're the ones that want to keep 40-year-old subway cars that are rotting off their frames (and those frames are rotting as well!) The only thing on those cars NOT in danger of rotting apart are the trucks. The bodies of these cars are held together with bondo, rubber cement, duct tape, bubblegum, tin foil and chicken wire. Time for them to go. The cost of maintaining them over the next ten years will exceed the amortized cost of new equipment. That's the point at which it makes financial sense to replace the equipment. The subway is ABSOLUTELY NOT built for RAILFANS. It was built to move people. The faster and cheaper it moves people, the more successful the system will be, the more people ride it, the more revenue the system retains, the fewer tax dollars the public has to pour into it. This is what my pledgemaster would have called 'A Very Good Thing'. Keeping the Redbirds running further than their design life, when parts of the bodies of these cars are rotten through, would be refered to 'A Bad Thing' When a toddler can put their little finger through the exterior wall of a car, this is called 'A Very Bad Thing' When, GFB, the train goes BIE at 40mph and derails, the damage would be increased by 50% because the car walls just can't handle the strain. (OK, that last one is a bit farfetched)
-Hank
i dont want to be anywhere abord a 142 s when they jump track and or crash !!!
us that when we will find out what kind od JUNK they are made out of ???
if any MOTORMAN MOTORWOMAN is ob his or her jobs then train WRECK S dont happen !!!!
anyway if the old subway cars are so dammed UNSAFE why do the MUSEUM trains still run ???
I didn't say they were unsafe. I said 'farfetched' I was playing 'what if'.
As to the museum cars, they're generally maintained by volunteers, and if they come from the ranks, they're fans just like most of us here. So those cars get some extra TLC. Most of the museum cars don't run any longer. The IRT Low-V's are privately owned and maintained. The BMT triplex is rotting, the motors are nearly fried.
Even a Yugo will run for 10 years if it's properly maintained through it's lifetime. But once the frame and body start to deteriorate, is it worth it to buy a new water pump? How about replacing the tranny? New fuel tank? Replace the radio? When does it become a waste of resourses to make repairs? When what you pay for repairs monthly exceeds what you would pay for a replacement vehicle. Which is precisely what the TA is doing with the redbirds. The bodies and frames are disintigrating, and there's nothing left that can be done about it. The cost of replacement cars, amortized* over the next 10 years, is less then the continued maintainence costs of the existing fleet. And this is how every business in the US does it. New equipment can be 'paid for' over the time of it's use. Then there's depreciation#, where you lower the cost of the item over time.
-Hank (I have added the definitions below for those without any accounting knowledge, courtesy of www.m-w.com)
*Main Entry: am·or·tize
Pronunciation: 'a-m&r-"tIz also &-'mor-
Function: transitive verb
1 : to provide for the gradual extinguishment of (as a mortgage) usually by contribution to a sinking fund at the time of each periodic interest payment
2 : to amortize an expenditure for {amortize intangibles} {amortize the new factory}
#Main Entry: de·pre·ci·ate
Pronunciation: di-'prE-shE-"At
Function: verb
1 : to lower in estimation or esteem
2 : to lower the price or estimated value of
intransitive senses : to fall in value
>>The subway is ABSOLUTELY NOT built for RAILFANS. It was built to move people.<<
I have to agree with Hank. The MTA and NYCT's mind is already made up. The R-142/142A's are reality, are here and are still coming. And soon enough, the Redbirds will disappear. Ain't nothing we can do to stop it.
Bill "Newkirk"
I have to agree with Hank.
I hope you realize you are responding to a two and a half year old thread.....don't worry, I did the same thing yesterday......
I seriousness though, I agree with that though. There is nothing that we can do. There time has come.
There time has come
Sorry, Their time has come. I was typing fast....
Bill, why on Earth are you replying to a post made two years ago?
Sheese!!!! Set your board preferance for Last Two Weeks. Keeps the index size down, besides, who cares what was said two years ago?
The R-142s (and R-142As) will have to undergo a 30-day in-service test. Any failure during that time restarts the 30-day clock. Once the trains pass the test, delivery will begin. If a component is found to have a high failure rate, a "fleet defect" will be declared, and a corrective action plan will be developed. If necessary, deliveries will be stopped until the problem can be overcome.
Incidentally, this (stopping of deliveries) happened with the R-62 and R-62A fleets. In fact, the R-62A had serious problems with the static converters, and the J/BDC contactors and the arc chutes in the main control group. They also had a potential safety hazard involving the yokes (the link between the carbody and the coupler). Deliveries were stopped several times while the problems were addressed. But addressed they were, and the cars are now extremely reliable.
I hope this answers the question.
David
sorry about typo could not correct in time never met female interested in trains nice to meet you [1] southferry [9]
As opposed to your irrational mission to save cars long overdue for a visit by the grim scrapper and halt progress.
BTW, as a member of the Redbird Jihad, you should at least pick a different line to act as your namesake.
PISSOFF YTOU ASS
It's nice to know that your brain is connected directly with your colon.
Not going to respond to PIGS remark already know what it is if your smart
Pigs is just being a Wart Hog to-day.
I'll tell you, some of the R26 and R28 cars I saw yesterday don't look long for this world, judging by the amount of rust on them. They won't have to be scrapped, they'll just head to the scrapyards on their own. These Rustbirds were seen napping on the centre track of the #4 line at 161st Street-River Avenue and were all signed as #5. I believe they were being relayed there due to the G.O. and other assorted problems in the Bronx IRT yesterday.
I don't like how the R142 looks, outside or inside, but FAIR IS FAIR, they must be given a chance. The Redbirds suffering from the least amount of structural damage should be retained for as long as is practical, even if they go to moth balls.
Wayne
You don't like how the R-142 looks.
Now you know how I feel about the Redbirds.
Never said anything about R142s appeance if you don't like redbirds that's fine so why dwell on the subject?
Was that message posted in response to you? Why do you dwell on the subject?
Sure seems like it was wh did you respond to it?
Unless your name is Wayne-MrSlantR40, then I didn't respond to you.
yeah you did admit your guilt don't hide behind words
They should not scrap the redbirds. Think of all the scrapyard guys at Naporano, NIMCO and Sarnelli Brothers who will be inhaling the lead paint chips, asbestos and other problems which resulted in OSHA's harsh penalties. The remaining R26-36 cars should be dunked like cookies in milk, so we can have a population of salmon, sea bass and lobsters who will appreciate them and who I will appreciate on my plate. Bon appetite!
...in a sack of ten??
Shoe Beam, why on Earth are you replying to a post made two years ago?
Sheese!!!! Set your board preferance for Last Two Weeks. Keeps the index size down, besides, who cares what was said two years ago?
Re: (corrected subject) Re: should i bring my cans of R-142 repellent?
The TA want's new blood
yes, but not to flood with incessant topics that have been rehashed, reduxed and remade to the point when you get sick of it. there are limits.
Bring back the Hi-Vs!!!8-)
I was going to SAY Hi-Vs, but I wanted to go old....
-Hank
Those Lo-V's should be scrapped...8-)
Damn! I missed the "Farewell to the Composites" fantrip!
--Mark
My father particiated in the "Farewell to the horse-drawn Broadway omnibus" fantrip ....
hank i agree with you KEEP THE REDBIRDS what i would do is build BRAND NEW REDBIRDS
same design etc... this time with STAINLESS STEEL roll signs and the same RELIABLE TIME TESTED..
and time proven materials !!! the only DIFFERENCE is that the subway car ITSELF would be
STAINLESS STEEL !!! ( rust proff or rust resistant ) BUT THE SAME OUTSIDE AND INSIDE !!!
but all brand new INTERCHANGE-ANLE parts from the old REDBIRDS !!!!
Actually, that's not such a bad idea. In fact, it was the idea behind the R-62/62A and the R-68/68A: build a modern-looking car out of stainless steel, but use time-tested components. For the most part, it worked well. The problem is, these time-tested components won't be available forever, since NYCT is just about the only agency still using them. For example, name an agency that still orders new cars with direct current cam-controlled propulsion. I can't.
The R-62 through R-68A series are constantly being upgraded under the SMS program. More modern components are being installed where and as appropriate and cost-effective.
David
One problem with the R142's is that they are really using 30 year old technology. This may seem like an improvement to the 70 year old technology that NYCT usually specifies. However, they should have opted for 10 year old technology, if they really wanted to reduce operating and maintenance costs over the cars' lifespan. I believe that the incorporation of the high tech visuals - such as the route signs are a means to hide the overall primative design with the cars' wiring and control system.
Ummm...who was using AC propulsion (on a DC power system), regenerative braking, and IGBTs 30 years ago?
David
Please reread my post. I said "technology" not implemented systems. The biggest problem with the railroad industry is that they do not experiment with a technology until it is practically obsolete.
The problem with AC propulsion is that DC motor operating characteristics were required (max torque at 0 rpm). Articles appeared in electrical engineering journals and magazines in the mid 1960's showing how to make AC motors behave like DC motors (or any desired characteristics for that matter) by varying voltage and frequency by means of semiconductor controllers. Working demonstrations with a power equivalent to those used for MU rail transport were available by the early 1970's. The elevator industry has been using the this technology for around 25 years.
Regernerative braking systems have been used successfully on some Swiss trolleybuses for at least 40 years.
IGBT's have been around for about 20 years. However, high power DC to AC conversion using thyristors and other semiconductors have been around for about 35 years. There were serious discussions in the technical journals of the late 1960's about using high voltage DC transmission cables for electrical power distribution. In fact, high tension DC transmission lines have been used for more than 30 years in Europe. They use semiconductor DC to AC converters to reduce the voltage for the primary distribution networks.
The point is that the railroad industry had ignored these technological advances, while they were happening. They could not imagine how they would be relevant to their industry - when their application was obvious. NYCT, in particular, was forced into employing the new technologies only when continued use of the old technology became grossly uneconomic.
Now, which 10 year old technologies do you suppose the R142's have missed?
Last night about 4:50 at Brooklyn Bridge All 4 tracks full of red birds. 2- #5's, 2-#6's
I hope there was someone there with a mop to clean up the mess you left...8-)
Peace,
Andee
Redbirds I say out populate the R62s espcially on the #4 line where I think A good portion of redbirds are on only reiveled by the #2 line next to #7 line #2 has the most of the redbird fleet
Three lines are 100% Redbird - #2, #5 and #7.
Two other lines are mixed: #4 (~20% Redbird) and #6 (~40% Redbird).
The percentages represent TOTAL CARS in the line's fleet, not as part of their requirement for service and includes spares &c.
Wayne
Actually, the 5 has 2-4 sets of R62/62A cars I see in the morning. They make a short trip out of Bowling Green.
-Hank
No, I ride those R-62As out of Flatbush almost every day. They're run to Dyre, or so the signs say.
Every time I see them, they're empty at Bowling Green. This is at 9am.
-Hank
OK I stand amended
#5 : ~90% Redbird, ~10% R62A
Wayne
this morning I was on a #6 in Redbird 8860 and instead of grab handles it had R-62 style poles and bars, is this the only red bird like this?
I reported that a couple of weeks ago, but nobody responded. I've been on it twice, and have seen it a couple of other times.
Clark Palicka
Why didn't they do this to the rest of the Redbirds?
Would it be a responsible thing for NYCT (or any other transit system operator) to order a large fleet of cars based on a working demonstration? That's part of what the R-110/110A order was about: testing new systems in the real world, carrying real people, but on a scale that wouldn't interfere with operations of the subway as a whole if the new systems failed. These cars were ordered in 1989, when the technology truly was new.
Given the long lead time in purchasing new equipment, it's entirely possible that newer technologies will become available between the time cars are ordered and the time they are placed into service (OK, not a 10-year difference, but certainly a 3-year difference). But continually making changes to the contract to incorporate new technologies as they become available will only result in the cars never coming in...because they'll stay at the contractor's plant forever to be updated! There comes a time when the specifications have to be frozen so that the components can be ordered by the contractor.
NYC Transit has a program called SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System). Under SMS, subway cars are constantly being upgraded. If (HYPOTHETICAL example) a radically new air compressor that is 100 times more reliable than the one ordered for the R-142s comes along, it will be installed (once a sample group is tested in revenue service, of course, to verify that it is in fact 100 times more reliable).
David
Would it be a responsible thing for NYCT (or any other transit system operator) to order a large fleet of cars based on a working demonstration? That's part of what the R-110/110A order was about: testing new systems in the real world, carrying real people, but on a scale that wouldn't interfere with operations of the subway as a whole if the new systems failed. These cars were ordered in 1989, when the technology truly was new....Part of the reason for the R-110 program was to gauge public opinion about certain features (such as seating configuration).
Exactly what other technological innovations were tested on the R110's besides reducing seating capacity by 15%? Which of these technologies was "truly new"? I assume that some sort of fire extinguishing system should have been included:-)
NYC Transit has a program called SMS (Scheduled Maintenance System). Under SMS, subway cars are constantly being upgraded. If
(HYPOTHETICAL example) a radically new air compressor that is 100 times more reliable than the one ordered for the R-142s comes along, it will be installed (once a sample group is tested in revenue service, of course, to verify that it is in fact 100 times more reliable).
Of course, it might not be possible to retrofit a train with a better technology. The counter example would have been to replace all the redbirds' structural and exterior metal with stainless back in the 1980's.
Seating capacity is not a technological issue, and I never said it was. My comments about the seating were lifted from another posting, in which I took issue with the poster's (not Mr. Bauman) opinion that the R-142/142A pilot cars were on the property for evaluation by the public.
Retrofitting subway cars with new structural and exterior metal is called rebodying. It's been done...Chicago (where parts from relatively new PCCs were incorporated into new subway car bodies) and various European streetcar systems come to mind.
As to what was new in the R-110s, I'd say that AC propulsion was new to the mass transit industry in 1989...maybe not in working models, but in application in a subway environment. Unitized air conditioning systems using AC motors were new IN A MASS TRANSIT ENVIRONMENT in 1989, when the R-110A and R-110B were ordered. Incidentally, a new fire extinguishing system using Halon was tested in some R-30s in the late 1980s or early 1990s. As I recall, it failed (kept discharging without a fire, if I remember right). Not everything that's new works, and that's why it has to be tested before it's ordered in quantity.
David
I, for one, am looking forward to the new cars. At first I didn't like the price, but according to Transit Transit they are estimating a 40 year life for these cars, rather than the usual 30 (reality being a little longer in both cases). Given that, plus inflation, they are no more expensive per year than the 1980s cars. And if they are cheaper to run and maintain, that is a real productivity gain.
The seats were removed to make it easier for wheelchairs.
Handicapped access is making everything a little worse in other ways, but we as a society have decided it is worth it.
The effect on apartment buildings is worse -- you used to step up or down to enter units from the street, and those on the street would look at the wall between floors. Now the ground floor must be at grade -- unless you can construct a massive ramp -- and those on the street look right in the first floor window.
The mass transit industry does a pittance in research and development of new technology. They must rely on other industries for such activities. It is highly unlikely that any new technology will first be tried and perfected in a mass transit environment. It is more likely that many technologies will used successfully for many years elsewhere before they are tried in a mass transit environment. Moreover, NYCT's apparant insistence that such new technologies be proven in another mass transit environment before being tried in NYC almost guarantees that many such technologies will be close to obsolete before they are introduced into the NYC system.
Mass transit engineers and designers must constantly borrow the latest trends from other industries, if they do not want their current designs to use obsolete technology.
The R142's do not appear to use any technology that has not been around for at least twenty years. It also appears to avoid any new technologies.
At least one important new technology is in vehicle network or fly by wire. This technology is being used successfully in aircraft. The inclusion of this technology is one reason why Airbus has been able to underbid Boeing on many commercial aircraft sales. Cost reductions have permitted this technology to be introduced into automobiles five years ago. This technology eliminates point-to-point wiring harnesses and their associated maintenance difficulty and repair costs. Indeed, this technology's wide spread proliferation in the next ten years will make the R142's wiring harnesses as archiac and costly to maintain as relays and DC motors are today.
Most electric motor development is done for elevator applications. That industry trend has been to use servos for better motion control and energy savings. One obvious benefits for such propulsion over the open loop controllers used on the R142's is the syncronization of motors between cars with the complete absence of bucking.
In short, the R142's are not the technological mavels for the next millenium. Their reliance on nearly obsolete technology will make them as costly to maintain in twenty years as the current redbird fleet is today.
There are some other performance shortcomings. The general desire is for new equipment to outperform the old. The R142's start out with 15% less seating capacity. The have the same acceleration, braking and speed characteristics as the old equipment. Enhanced capabilities could have meant the need for 25% less equipment for the same level of service. Such shortcomings make it difficult for me to see how they could be successful in performing their primary mission - carrying people in an expeditious and economic manner.
i do not believe anyone can prove that except for being new and shiny the R-142s will last as long
as the REDBIRDS have and did last !!! you make our point well !!!
Would LonWorks be fly-by-wire? The new cars will use LonWorks.
BTW, that was a most interesting posting.
David
Yes, LonWorks is fly-by-wire. However, parts to maintain a LonWorks network may prove very difficult to maintain in the near future.
I have to almost completely disagree here.
I think the biggest danger in the new tech trains is that they
will employ too much advanced technology and be very difficult
to maintain in a decade or two. A big problem with embedded
microprocessor controls is that they are black boxes. Unless very
careful attention is being paid to defining the interface to the
black box, they effectively become complicated, irreplaceble
critical components. Ever run into a 25-year-old digital logic
or microprocessor control box with a blown chip? It's kind of tough
to find replacement 8008s or 4004s these days.
To the TA's credit, they have been insisting on good documentation,
multi-vendor support, and open-systems practices. The control systems
on the 142 order are based on LON Works, which is an IEEE standard
for embedded control applications. It not only defines electrical
and data link protocols, but it has a network layer and some
data definition models and applications models. Of course, unless
the vendor has clearly documented the control algorithms and
interfaces, it's still a black box, but at least the TA recognizes
this problem and is trying to address it.
I'm very sure that LONworks did not exist 20 years ago, in 1980,
and many of the other technologies in the 142 order did not either
or were in their infancy.
I think the 142 can be classified as "fly by wire", although if it
is governed down to the same pathetic top-end speeds as the current
fleet it's more like "schlep by vire". AFAIK, all of the major
control functions (motoring, braking, doors, climate control) are
effected by sending network messages over the trainline network.
There are a few other pins dedicated to battery feed, ground,
coupler control, and I think the PA audio is still carried as an
analog signal. That's a far cry from the current system which
uses something like 30 distinct trainline wires.
I would also classify the 142 propulsion system as closed-loop.
It uses 3-phase, variable-voltage, variable-frequency drive and
a hall effect sensor monitors shaft rotation. The controller
can detect wheel slip in motoring and braking and correct for it.
It can also maintain tight acceleration profile control, as opposed
to the current DC motor controls which try to regulate the current
coarsely and hope for the best.
I was not aware that the 142 propulsion system was closed-loop. I withdraw (probably with prejudice) my criticism for not including such control in the unit.
I am puzzled about the intercar connections, as deduced by looking at the coupler in the pictures, if they are using an in vehicle network such as LonWorks. Theoretically no signals need pass through the couplers, if LonWorks spread-spectrum rf physical layer were used. Another compromise would be to use the infrared physical layer with only 2 signal channels per coupler. I would have thought that spread-spectrum rf interface would prove irresistable because it would permit an operator with a lap top to operate a B-type for yard moves.
I certainly echo the sentiments that you expressed in the your first paragraph. The way to avoid dependance on a particular physical implementation (and I did use the 8008) is to place all the relevant control information in the network messages. These messages must also be hardware neutral - i.e. "turn on lights" not "turn on switch 78".
The devil, of course, is in the details. Unfortuantely, I believe NYCT has been snake bit in its choice for using LonWorks. Its achilles heel is that it does not use a widely used protocol. This protocol must be implemented by a so-called Neuron(R) chip. This chip is currently manufacturerd by Toshiba and Cypress. A third manufacturer, Motorola, decided to cease all Neuron(R) chip sales as of last month. Does NYCT plan to open a FAB?
I looked at Echelon/Lon Works when it came out in 1990. It seemed
unecessarily baroque. I think CAN would have been a better choice,
and that's the direction the AAR is heading with ECP braking.
However, LonWorks says a lot more about application-level issues
than CAN, which is purely a layer 2/3 protocol.
I don't know why the TA avoided the use of radios. Possibly
cost, possibly the piece of mind of knowing there's a hard connection.
There are two redundant twisted-pair trainlines (RS-485?) IR?
Probably a bad idea in a filthy environment like the subway.
There are two competing trends for control networks. The first is driven by trying to make them cost competitive with point-to-point wiring. The emvphasis has been to build an inexpensive microcontroller which also implements a special purpose protocol. This is the LonWorks approach. It is also the approach taken by about a dozen others - such as BitBus, FieldBus, ProfilBus and CANBus. The weakness with this approach is that with the exception of CANBus, is that they were motivated by the chip makers who were looking for applications to apply this technology. The classic case of a solution looking for a problem. These protocols have generally remaind tightly controlled by their originators with or without cross-licensing and published standards. The problem is how long the semiconductor manufactures will continue to manufacture the microcontrollers, if they do not find high volume applications. Motorola's withdrawl from manufacturing the LonWorks microcontroller is not a good omen. CANBus differs because it guarantees a huge market - automotive electronics. I agree that CANBus would have been a better choice for a low cost special purpose control network.
However, I do not believe that this is where the industry will eventually head. The costs associated with using ethernet and IP are inexpensive and getting cheaper every day. They are less expensive to use than CANBus for small runs of 100K or less, when all development and deployment costs are factored in. This is analogous RISC vs CISC argument for microprocessors. Certainly, CISC has been winning despite reports of its imminent demise for the last 10 to 15 years. We have also seen full scale microprocessors being used as embedded controllers more and more over the past 10 years. Their appeal has been quick development time for a reasonable penalty for unit hardware cost. The popularity of single board computers and the PC-104 cards butress this trend.
The reasons for choosing an IP network are fairly clear. It will be around a very long time; it already has all the services that will be needed for a control network system and it is free - which as they used to say is better than wholesale. It also has the bandwidth for CCTV and other services that are not yet contemplated. I don't know whether Echelon is trying to hedge but it is intersting to note that their current development project is developing LonWorks over IP. This is a dual edge sword for them. If you have IP, who will need LonWorks.
My reason for advocating a contactless communications between cars is based on NYCT's assertion that the couplers are one of the least reliable components. This is one of the reasons that they give for using semi-permanent link bars. I think that a foolproof IR channel could be devised for the couplers. However, RF is certainly an available technology that no additional effort to implement. As to cost- what is the cost for having a $2 million car unavailable for no reason other than its mate has a problem. Availability, availability, availability!
I'm on the road and I can't post a lengthy reply, but I'll
pick up this thread in a day or two.
Picking up the thread on embedded controls:
Echelon was originally proprietary but later released all of
the protocol specs and became an open standard. I believe
IEEE adopted it. I didn't realize Motorola was dropping
the Neuron products, but in theory any microcontroller could
run the stuff.
A lot of people are using ethernet and IP for control "because
it's there", but that doesn't make it a good design. Both have
a design philosophy of "best effort delivery". IP is notoriously
bad for real-time applications. Ethernet would be a poor choice
for a trainline network. Presumably you'd be talking about
10BASE2/5, not 10BASET, as the latter requires a star wiring
that doesn't make sense on a train. 10BASE and 10BASE5 are
very unreliable....it doesn't take much to disrupt the entire
subnet.
Embedded PCs are OK, as long as they aren't running a Microsoft OS.
Spread spectrum is getting small enough and affordable enough to
be worth considering. It is already being used for vital
"line" circuits in railway signaling. Perhaps the TA is worried
about interference from CBTC :)
LonWorks became an open protocol in 1999. The germane property is availability not whether it is proprietary or open. It is possible to program a protocol but it is preferable to get its implementation in firmware. The question is how long LonWorks will be around and how many people will be around to work with it. Motorola's dropping Neuron(R) products is NOT a good omen.
From an academic point of view, it may void the entire R142 procurement because there are no longer two USA manufacturers. It's a pity that the MUST use LonWorks spec was placed in by NYCT, otherwise the supplier could be left holding the bag.
I've had good experience using thin wire ethernet (coax) in some very harsh industrial environments. There are ways of avoiding wire fault failures and some excellent devices for locating them. You have raised one interesting question: how does the R142 cope with a catastrophic network failure?
The reasons for choosing IP are that it is there; it will probably be there; the infrastructure is there and it is free. It is not a very efficient protocol but who cares in an environment of inexpensive bandwidth.
Real-time is a relative term. Strictly speaking any serial communications is not "real-time", if the required response time is shorter than the encoding and decoding time (with or without error correction, link protocol, etc). A sort of Nyquist correlary exists: if encoding/transmission/decoding time is less than half the minimum time for a "state" change then there should be no problems. "State" changes can be made longer by distributing the intelligence. Also, transmission time is an order of magnitude less with ethernet than LonWorks or similar 1.0 - 1.5 MB twisted-pair protocols.
I've used DR DOS with no problems. The choice was motivated by favorable licensing policies. Most embedded PC's come with the software to make a disk based OS a ROM'able OS. Embedded Linux, may make this argument moot within a few years.
Spread spectrum was designed to operate in "crowded" RF environments. Interference from CBTC should not an issue. If it were, then reciprocity would apply and CBTC would be equally subject to RF interference. Imagine the fun that hackers would have with portable CBTC jammers. After all, police radar jammers sell:-)
>>>Exactly what other technological innovations were tested on the R110's besides reducing seating capacity by 15%?<<<
Seating capacity was reduced for 2 reasons. First, to comply with ADA. Second, the TA conducted passenger surveys and those surveys said that passengers wanted more room.
Peace,
Andee
Seating capacity was reduced for 2 reasons. First, to comply with ADA. Second, the TA conducted passenger surveys and those surveys said that passengers wanted more room.
ADA compliance does not mandate a decrease of seating capacity.
Did this survey also ask whether or not the passengers wanted a seat?
ADA compliance does not per se mandate a decrease in seating capacity, but that is the effect. There is only one way to get space for wheelchairs, and that is to use space that would otherwise be occupied by seats. You can't expect a wheelchair to just park in the middle of the aisle!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So? Use fold up seats like on busses.
Fold-ups might not work as well as on a bus, where the driver is right there to tell any uncooperative passenger they have to give up their seat to make room for the wheelchair, plus the MTA would have to decide whether or not it wanted to make the seats liftable by anyone (creating the poetential new problem of `seat slamming' to go with scratchiti)or set it up so only the conductor or motorman could key the seat into an up/down position.
Either a balky and rude passenger who won't give up his seat or locked seats that had to be altered by the conductor would create more logisitics problems then ADA seating on a bus does. Better to just leave out the seats and just leave an open space for the wheelchairs.
I'm rather shocked that a passanger survey would show that more room would be more desirable than additional seats. Seats are the #1 priority of just about all transit riders.
Think it would have to do with all the rush hour crowding that occures
Of course, it might not be possible to retrofit a train with a better technology. The counter example would have been to replace all the redbirds' structural and exterior metal with stainless back in the 1980's.
If the frames are in shape, fine, it might be a good idea. But with 40-y-o frames and 40-y-o bodies, it makes absolutely no sense.
Now, if you were building the R62s today to replace the R29, you might want to grab the trucks, and use them. Maybe you'd want the control set. But you wouldn't want the bodies. 10 more years, they'd have more holes than swiss cheese (to coin a phrase :).
-Hank
build brand new REDBIRDS same reliable specks ALL NEW CARS same design etc ...!!!!!
stainless steel bodies like the R-38 !!!!!!
Waste. When you're a money-concious public entity, you have to answer (usually) to the public you serve. NOT to invest in technology that can reduce operational and maintainence costs in the future, increase safety (thus reducing insurance payments and lawsuit payouts), and increase energy efficiency would be a fatal error. Reducing energy consuption (with the aforementioned increased efficiency) reduces the need for power, which reduces the need to generate electricity, more than 50% of which is generated by polluting fossil fuels in the US.
-Hank
see !!! thats my point they dont care about the transit public .....
HOW in the HELL did you infer THAT? To quote myself, I said "When you're a money-concious public entity, you have to answer (usually) to the public you serve." How is it that the public they serve is NOT the transit public?
-Hank
I agreed to stop fighting the retard, it might be good for you too.
wrong retard you shmuck
Could all of the combatants in this death match please take it to e-mail? There's no reason the rest of us have to read all these insults.
David
Sorry david the man should read the responce before he replies to it
Maybe I was wrong.
You're the right one then.
when they build brand new "S" junk subway cars !!! like the r 142 ?? !!
Have you played in traffic lately? What part of 'You can't judge a book by it's cover' don't you understand? When the R142 enter service, and IF they have an MDBF lower than the R26/28/29 after 1 full year of service (it can take that long to work out the bugs) then you can rant and rave about how the 142 should be scrapped all you want. Until then, PUT UP, or SHUT UP. And since you can't POSSIBLY prove something that has yet to occur, SHUT UP!
-Hank
the 142 s have not proven themselves yet like the REDBIRDS are still doing !!! now who needs to shut up ??
Still, you. Something that's not in use (or doesn't exist, for you Trekkies!) can't possible 'prove itself' before it starts being used or exists.
-Hank
like bart simpson says "" DONT HAVE A COW MAN "" !!!!!
You have the brain of a cow. Does that count?
>> When the R142 enter service, and IF they have an MDBF lower than the R26/28/29 after 1 full year of service (it can take that long to work out the bugs) then you can rant and rave about how the 142 should be scrapped all you want.
..We're just warming up for that one big
TOLD YOU SO!!!!!
a cold shower and a cold beer is what you need not a brand new junked 142 ....
03/18/2000
a cold shower and a cold beer is what you need not a brand new junked 142 ....
Or perhaps that cold beer could wash down those kosher franks you like at Newark Penn station. Now the cold shower is when you find a clean unscratched RAILFAN WINDOW!!!!!
Bill Newkirk
cold beer works in RUNNING off certan insects in your vegetable garden !! that would be a good use for
a cold beer !! if i just had to drink that stuff there are ALCOHOL -FREE soft drink types ODULS etc....
cant even get dunk off of this stuff !!! remember it is against the law to DRINK and DRIVE !!!!!!
I WILL TAKE YOU ALL UP ON SOME GOOD KOSHER FRANKS !! ( not a bad idea mr newkirk !! )
thank you for the unscratched railfan window it is NICE to shoot a vidieo out of !!!!!!!!
And it WON'T HAPPEN!
Let's wait and see how testing goes but we all know what is a fact and that's "REDBIRDS RULE THE RAILS" of the IRT and have been for 40 years see if R142s get that kind of record
If PIGS can fly, heck anything is possible and
the r-142 fan's have one big TOLD YOU SO!!!!
on their tab.. do we REALLY trust computers,
moreover, a computerized talking train??
just look at all the y2k and the big
TOLD YOU SO it got from us sane folks.
Exactly, the computers DIDN'T collapse on Y2K, regardless of the hype! This is my last response to the insane luddites in these threads, it's become useless. You will continue to be stubborn in your quest to preserve the ephemeral past, a quest that has always been met with failure.
you can take a risk in DETROIT on the PEOPLE MOVER there !!! ( no operator ) !!!!
Again, a completely different system. It's a closed loop, it was built from the start to be fully automated, and it's on such a small scale, you can't even compare it to MARTA. Now, you want to make a fair comparison to the NYC subway, look to London, Moscow, and Tokyo.
-Hank
Y2K got a big 'Told you so' from a lot of people. It seems the general public think that since really nothing happened outside of a few non-critical problems, that the whole thing was imaginary. Truth is, if several billion dollars WASN'T spent fixing things that COULD HAVE caused problems, many of the doomsday predictions would have come true.
The REAL Y2K nuts were the ones who claimed elevators would stop even if the power worked, airplanes would stop flying, cars wouldn't start, etc. I've experienced a grand total of _1_ Y2K problem. The fax machine at my office says it's 1900. No one noticed until the middle of February. Oddly, it kept the DATES right, as it had no problem with 2/29/00. But again, not mission-critical.
-Hank
when looking thas of 12/01 the redbirda all had a higher MBDF, than the 142As, and All the redbirds, except the R26 are higher than the
r142
so... salaamallah can "rant and rave about how the 142 should be scrapped all you want" after all
so... salaamallah can "rant and rave about how the 142 should be scrapped all you want" after all
Well get the barges ready and send the R142's to sea..........
thanks fot the support .....please have all of the surviving redbirds
ready for us after august 25 2002 & i will be very happpy folks !!
( smile ) ......he he he he ...........lol !!
Nobody (at least nobody who knew what he or she was talking about) ever claimed that the "Redbirds" were unreliable. They've been reliable for years, and even in their death throes they continue to be reliable. However, the cars are falling apart structurally, and no amount of wishful thinking or complaining about a lack of "railfan windows" on the new equipment is going to change that.
By the way, the R-142As (Kawasaki), at last check (which was after December 2001), had a MDBF over 150,000 miles. The R-142s (Bombardier) continue to lag (though they're hardly in "lemon" territory), but it is unfair and inaccurate to say that all of the new cars are unreliable.
David
ok
True. I mean why would you compare two car classes when one was out for 40 years when the other isn't even out for a decade in the running, yet? No sense to me.
I mean why would you compare two car classes when one was out for 40 years when the other isn't even out for a decade in the running, yet?
Or even a quarter of a decade.....
...uh...what is a ?? MBDF ??
.......thankz
Mean Distance Between Failure
thankz ......................redbirds rule !!!
WE MAKE TRAINS GO EVERDAY ON #2 AND #5. These trainsets are beat to crap,carbody rust is beyond understanding, end lights are falling out and windows are scratchittied. We fix the AC...if it fails, you open the windows. We fix the brakes...if they fail, RCIs cut em out. You guys ask me about the R142s...and I tell the truth...TA got taken for a 'bill of goods' with New Tech. Each and every Redbird in RTO service will continue to provide reliable service until the last meets 'Neptunes Fleet.' Every Redbird #5 covered by my crew that is repairable and SAFE will remain in operation until the last of the Bombardier R142s is delivered and PROVEN in RTO operation. The rest 'is a guess.' CI Peter
wow a #2 express again will be very nice 2 ride on this late august 4 sure big time !!
thankz a billion !!
Four Redbird trainsets left for the 'Midnight Junkie Runs.' So, if you are really brave or heavily 'Armed L.A. style,' you may still have a chance to ride the 'Escape from New York' trainsets and return home unscathed. Sad thought that one can be unsafe at any hour...we do not live in a civilised society that retains respcet for life and dignity. CI Peter
..?..."Four Redbird trainsets left for the 'Midnight Junkie Runs.' "??
headed to los angeles ?? ........oh yea ??.........!!.....???
to be used to shoot a movie where ???.....!
really want to know more info on dat'....!!!
Put me on your 'sheet list' as another MadMax. The 'Cs' are afraid of nothing...twelve gauge muzzle-to-mouth and LA boys are pussycats. Don't wear a leather jacket or high boots...just have the wrench, an occupied holster, tools and a batch of radios. I don't limp either. May the Grace of our Creator always keep us safe and well...and TA has employees trained and experienced outside of their employment who can be called up anytime. We do our best to keep the city alive and we have respect...I DID NOT KNOW of this until walking into the secure environment of the Seventh Regiment Armory wearing official TA ID. Let us pray that your excursion into my city is safe and well...and that New York City never becomes a terrorist target again.
man this is a old thread ....pigs of royal island poster ???
a very old thread ...............lol ??..........!
YOU ARE RIGHT!!!! I didn't even notice that, and I even responded in this thread today!
In addition, salaamallah......who is this "los angeles rail system" - very old thread indeed.
03/18/2000
build brand new REDBIRDS same reliable specks ALL NEW CARS same design etc ...!!!!!
stainless steel bodies like the R-38 !!!!!!
Sorry Salaam,
R-38's have riveted steel roofs! Even after GOH they are starting to leak. Corrosion problem there. You must mean R-32! Now that's a stainless steel body, BUDD BUILT!
Bill Newkirk
What!!!!!!!!!! Why does everyone hate R142s
i will miss being able to shoot my railfan vidios out of it !!!!
why didnt the r 142s come railfan window equipped ?? BECAUSE OF THE TRANSVERSE CAB FAN CLUB !!!
Technically, the entire system uses a basic technology invented 100 years ago for the contract 1 IRT. The trip-cock signal system was patented in 1899. The idea of using electrical power supplied via a third rail is even older. This technology has it's limits. Hopefully, the CBTC system that will soon be fitted to the L line will bring the NYC system into the 20th century.
I assume that at around 2101 some technology will be installed that will bring the subway into the 21st century.
Hopefully, the CBTC system that will soon be fitted to the L line will bring the NYC system into the 20th century.
The influence of the present wayside-block signal system on capacity 5 seconds of the present 90 second interval limit. The other 85 seconds is a function of maximum train speed and acceleration and braking rates.
Today's minimum scheduled interval is 124 seconds. Thus, it is highly UNLIKELY that reducing reducing this to 85 seconds will ever be required. However, the CBTC system being installed on the 14th St line will allow a minimum interval of 120 seconds.
If the capacity of the CBTC system were significantly better than the current system, instead of worse than the present system, then I might share your enthusiasm.
So what you say is that you can't judge the R-142s as you have never seen one, and then you go on to judge one.
Said I have not been able to judge one but who knows what they will be like taking into consideration the equipment the TA has been purchising
I don't know if you guys know this but if you notice the R62's have
A small plate on the right side on the sill that says leased to the
NYCTA by the Port Authority Of New york and New Jersey it seems to me
that the NYCTA does not buy any rolling stock.
That was a sale/leaseback deal made when the cars were new. NYCT does indeed buy rolling stock. Sale/leaseback deals were designed to raise money -- I think they were outlawed in the late 1980s. Perhaps someone can elaborate.
David
It's still done commercially - witness the sale/leaseback of the AT&T headquarters building in 1999. Perhaps it has been banned for public agencies.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Airlines do it all the time...
Tell me about it. I once worked for a law firm where I got to see something interesting. To avoid paying taxes on some new planes, several airlines formed a holding company which purchased the planes and leased them back to the airlines at a loss.
-Hank
If you really want to see some screwy things done to avoid taxes, the tour/charter bus company I worked for in 1981-1982 really had some tricks up their sleeves.
The buses were all marked "East Coast Parlor Car Tours". That was basically their marketing area. ECPCT was actually a division of the "US Travel Agency" (which made sure they had small print saying "Not a United States Government agency or affiliate" on everything they printed or owned. The buses had small decals that said "Owned by Leatherwood Motor Coach Company". They also had decals that said "Operated by WMA Interstate Transit". (That was how they got their ICC rights, they bought the interstate charter division of WMA when WMA became part of WMATA.)
Our paychecks (drivers) were from Leatherwood Motor Coach Corporation (NOT "Company" as the buses were lettered). They had a Bluefield, West Virginia address on them, and were drawn on a bank in Bluefield Virginia (across the state line). The maintenance people at the garage in northeast DC were paid by "Motor Coach Services". The buses had Virginia license plates, and on the registration was an Alexandria, VA address (which turned out to be the company attorney's place....)
They aren't around any more......
Memories,the good old days.I seem to recall back inthe late Sixties or very earlt Seventies the nycta scrapped some r-1/r-9's and leased them back from the scrapper! Anyone have more details, like number of cars, which car type , for how long , dollar amount, cause, and the fallout?
03/16/2000
That reminds me what happened recently with the old LIRR Diesel fleet. The cars were sold to a buyer (not scrapper) and when the current bi-level cars were late in coming, the buyer leased them back to the LIRR until the bi-levels were all in service.
Bill Newkirk
You can also see this type of Legend on LIRR an MN equipment of the same era as the R-62s.
Peace,
Andee
The M-1s are considerably older.
True but, I have seen the "OWNED BY THE PORT AUTHORITY" or somrthing to that effect on LIRR equipment
Peace,
Andee
Port of New York Authority
Owner and Lessor
I love the RedBirds with all of my heart, especially the ones on the 7 route, but they've been around since 1964. That's 36 years!!! To be perfectly honest, it's time for a change. I think we have to give these R142 cars a chance to see what they can do. And here's a symbol: Do you know that the 7 RedBirds are a symbol of Shea Stadium? The Mets started play at Shea in 1964 and that's when the World's Fair cars premiered on the # 7 line. And I don't know if his is true, but I heard that the Mets will have a new stadium by 2002 but there's no sign that they're even starting to build it. I know this is not related to SubTalk, but does anybody know if the new Shea is actually gonna be built? Otherwise, long live the REDBIRDS!!!
R36Gary
You should post this to Off Subtalk. No membership required!
This is the slow phaseout they order the new cars as the new cars arrive they slowly will retire the older cars
I would love to see redbirds running forever, but the ravages of time and weather will prevent that. They've served the city very well. Time to say goodbye.
They will be missed. But lets not say goodbye yet. Enjoy them while they last. When the redbirds are replaced, there will be only one well-maintained redbird left. That's the R17 6688 in Bradford.
not so fast dumping REDBIRDS have the 142 s proven themselves reliable and worthy yet tested true
and ready for rugged daily service yet ?? or will they BE IN THE SHOP like a ........... FORD................
- Fix - Or - Repair - Daily - !!! maybe they will suffer the same fate the 110 bs died on !!!!!!!
142s have not proven anything yet. funny you should mention spending time in the shop I see this with the articulated buses some are only 3yrs and in my opinon seem to have a lot of major repair work needed when there is a brakdown not a minor problem who knows maybe ti's built by FORD and we don't know it
What do you think the TESTING they're doing is for !!!!! ???? !!!! The 110 was only intended to be around temporarily as a prototype, with the 142 s in, they're USELESS !!!!!
I will predict redbird fleet will have 3 to 5 more years of service.
I hope you are right.
What kind of prediction is that? That's what everyone's been saying? How long do you think the new trains take to deliver? 2 weeks?
Your a pig go play in the " MUD"
As it is, I am currently involved in two Multi User Dungeons. In one of them, my character is called Pig and the planet it owns is called Royalisland! In the other one I'm Porcarius, but there are no planets there.
Great just what we need another sybil
Please rephrase that in the form of an English sentence using English words.
You figure it out...
Are you talking with yourself again?
you answered him !!!
Why don't you keep your hollow head out of this.
please !!! go and oink !! oink !!! somewhere else !!!
Don't bother with him LA rail not in the mood for any of his crap tonight that list is up if you want to take a look at it
Stop posting parallel responses.
You're a redbird (Cardinal, I assume) GO LIVE ON SUNFLOWER SEEDS
Heard by 2005, all RedBirds will be extinct. :(
R36Gary
Good of you to mention 6688. How many Redbirds do you know that still have orange interior doors? In the tri-state area, 6688 may be the only Redbird left when all is said and done. Saving Redbirds for the Transit Museum is not necessarily out of the question though. A pair of R26s is slated to go west to the Illinois Rwy Museum.
-Stef
The Transit Museum already has a redbird, albeit in it's original blue livery. It is an R-33S (pigs favorite 8->) and is fully functional. They still use it to train conductors.
Peace,
Andee
I know. But there may be some who are still interested in the possibility of saving R-26s, and R-28s.
9306 was never a Redbird, but is a Bluebird (because of the scheme). She is not fully functional. I checked on the status of 9306 and her IRT companions and found that they were cannabalized for parts. Basically, they're dead in the water and would require towing.
-Stef
where did you find these cars at?
I am referring to the cars at the NY Transit Museum. They are 9306(R-33), 6609 (R-17), 6239 (R-15), and 5760 (R-12).
-Stef
Still have a assortment of museum cars at coney island yard I have not been to transit museum for a while
I'd love to see a One hundred and twenty Five foot single track elevated built in Central Park , near the zoo, with aset mounted as a sort of monument to Twentith Century commuting mankind.
Just another of my fantasies.
avid
Talking about fantasies I always fantasize that if I had the amount
of money that Bill Gates has I would buy some R-29's and paint them
in the silver with blue band, and buy some land and do what they did
for the movie Money Train. Since cut and cover is too expensive I would cover the tracks like the movie, and build the stations exc.exc.
Then I would have my own IRT subway system.
Money train used R21/R22
I have seen moneytrain car in coney Island yard can be any series IRT car since all were same style
I would paint in all different color schemes so I had one or two of each
Anything old can be new and improved if you really want it to
To bad that's not how the TA does it They have no heart
What does this have to do with heart?
TRAINS ARE NOT LIVING THINGS!
Relax. I believe the person was trying to make a point. While the train in itself is only a mechanical object, it can be seen at least for some of us a symbol of our past (and for some the present and/or future).
Is there sentimental value associated with a Redbird? Why not? During the era of the Redbird, a lot happened in my life: I grew up, graduated from High School, got my college degree, and went to work for a living, all of which are accomplishments:)
-Stef
He has no sentimental values
No, it's because a Redbird means nothing to me. It's just an ugly car from a prior era that happened to be a dark one in terms of subways. Looking at pictures, the cars the Redbirds displaced look a lot better. This is also the era where Penn Station was replaced by Madison Square Garbage. The only thing good about them is the World's Fair, which we have never had again because of the decline of the city in the following years. But those were the R-36WF and they're not real Redbirds anyway, they just wear a red suit.
R36 WF cars are redbirds you putz door glass and windows were changed to enhance car apperaance
Putz? I guess you've not been looking around the site. The R33S and R36WF cars were built with the picture windows and originally painted in a VERY nice blue and blue-grey scheme. Mainline R33 and R36 were delivered in a much brighter color red than is currently used. For a time, the cars wore white, MTA silver and blue, green, and of course, graffitti. Calling them 'redbirds' is a relatively recent nickname.
-Hank
I know what they looked like what I was implying these cars all had major ovehauls during mid to late 80s when returned to service they were all painted red given the nickname redbird all R33s and R36s were manufactured by st louis car Making them the same type car so what's your point?
No they weren't. They weren't delivered red and they have picture windows. That greatly adds to their appearance. They also looked better in the past with their original colors. Of course, then there's the R-33 single, which when compared to other Redbirds makes them look like angels.
OK your right see ya
wrong again !! the REDBIRDS are proff that how WELL BUILT the pre R 40 type etc. subway cars were all made !!!
TIME TESTED TIME PROVEN TOUGH !!! RUGGED BEAUTIFUL LONG LASTING DEPENDABLE !!!
its like the old automobiles THEY WERE BUILT BETTER YOU COULD EVEN WORK ON THEM YOURSELF !!
the new COMPUTER CONTROLLED MONSTERS like the marta trains in the lost city of atlantis ( atlanta )
WERE SO OVER HIGH TECH NO COMMON SENSE CONSTRUCTION THE DOORS FREEZE SHUT
in every winter ( back in the 1980 s ) AND WE WERE TALKING BRAND NEW FRENCH MADE TRAINS !!!
when i hear this nonsense about how the REDBIRDS and all of the pre R-40 type subway cars .....
ARE ALL UGLY AND NEED TO BE SCRAPPED ( not just by mr. pig ) all i want to know is
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE 110 Bs THE NEWER THAN R 68 TYPE CARS THAT FAIL BEFORE THEY
ARE EVEN APPROVED FOR SERVICE !!!! Question have the R-142s proven themselves worthy yet ??
CAN THEY EVEN COME CLOSE TO THE REDBIRDS IN TIME QUALITY LONG SERVICE BETWEEN REPAIRS
and also tell us HOW LONG DO YOU BELIEVE THEY WILL LAST !!!
especially on the irt lines and you know what a ROUGH RIDE that is !!!!!!!!!! ( wear and tear )
yes subway cars automobiles wear out eventually even life itself does not live on forever !!
BUT WHY CANT SOME THINGS BE STILL MADE WITH THE QUALITY NOT QUANITY LIKE
THEY USED TO BE MADE ??? simple strong long lasting tough durable long time between repairs !!
AND STAND UP TO THE TEST OF TIME !!!! LIKE THE REDBIRDS !!!!!!!!
heres to you REDBIRD fans they were the last of the GREATEST SUBWAY ERA EVER !!
no thanks to mr pig !! it just aint KOSHER folks !!!!!!!!!!! ( I do not eat PORK !! ) ....
Kindly add more memory to your system so that you can remember what you've already said 400 times and can't prove since you (and no one else here, except maybe SubDude) have ridden. The cars are not in passenger service, and won't be for some time. You can't compare NYCTA cars to MARTA cars; you can't compare cars built specifically for OPTO; for operation in weather that generally doesn't get to freezing; that are more automated than anything the TA is even considering purchasing; for use on an all-new system (built within the last 30 years); that doesn't see NEARLY the amout of daily passengers that the IRT does.
As for the R110 cars, for 1,000,000,001st time, they were proof-of-concept cars. A test bed, to see what technologies would would work, and what wouldn't. That's why there were several different seating arrangements, different interior designs, etc. It's also why they were run into the ground. You don't do the kind of maintainence on a concept vehicle once it's proved it's point. You especially don't maintain 19 one-of-a-kind vehicles when you have a fleet of over 4000 with common componants that are more readily available.
-Hank
Hank, you are arguing with a child. He may be a early middle-aged man, but seems to be acting with the emotions and attitudes of a child. Rational discourse will be answered with a infantile outburst. Everybody that responds to one of his posts is usually met with one or another of them. It never ends.
He may be producing very good videos, but the personality displayed here is not very desirable.
Suggestion: shun him. Don't respond to his posts. Be firm in that resolve. Maybe he will get the hint. Stongly suspect not.
It's been tried. It was responded to with pollution in every thread about how they should scrap cars that were (at the time) not even delivered. Besides, I'm taking the high road. I'm not insulting anything but his intelligence. Now Pigs, on the other hand....Pigs just likes to fight.
-Hank
i agree with the first post on this MR R 29 !!
I was on 9637-9636 on the 7 line and this conductor was SO LOUD that when I got off, I couldn't hear that well. I also put my Walkman at the highest volume and I still heard the conductor loud and clear. I heard that car 2153 also is very loud intercom on 3 line.
R36Gary
Sounds more like a loud PA than a loud CR.
It's worse when the conductor is silent. Worse that that are the ones who press the button AFTER they start talking, and release it BEFORE they're finished talking.
One conductor on the G went so far as to keep pressing and releasing the button DURING each announcement (I made sure to watch her as I left the train). When I asked her about it, all she said was that there was a problem with the P.A. system. OF COURSE there was a problem - she wouldn't keep the button pressed throughout an entire word, let alone a whole announcement!
Sometimes it is the PA. On the Redbirds that happens alot.
That loud conductor was still better than the guy who sounded like Ben Stein (the monotone, talk-through-the-nose actor) trying to impersonate Harry Nugent (the retired "tour-guide" conductor).
This guy made sure to drag out, and e-nun-ci-ate, ev-e-ry sin-gle syl-lab-le, so as to max-i-mize dwell time as much as pos-sib-le, pro-bab-ly so he could blow off a trip.
I'll take a droning monotonous conductor any day over a PA system that makes all kinds of noise when it is not being used (ie, unexplained buzzing and 60 cycle hums). I've noticed this to be most prevalant on R-68/68a's. It's enough to give you a migraine.
Peace,
Andee
THAT'S enun-ci-ate ev-ery sin-gle syl-la-ble, so as to max-i-mize dwell time as much as pos-si-ble, prob-ab-ly because too many people in the past complained that they couldn't understand him.
There is just no pleasing the general public when it comes to PA announcements. Take me for instance - I learned years ago how to use a microphone and PA system; I have no discernible accent; I can speak English clearly; I even graduated from the Dale Carnegie Course in Public Speaking and I don't YELL or whisper when I talk. Nonetheless, many were the times people told me I was too loud, too quiet, they couldn't understand me, or the absolute worst thing - You didn't say anything. Of course, there were also people on the same trip who said I made the best announcements they ever heard - and I have a form letter from Mr Reuter telling me that they told him.
There is an operator in DC who talks like that way.
My impression is here. If it doesn't work, he sounds like Red line (pause), to Downtown Washington (pause), and Silver Spring. He also does Tenleytown (pause), American University (pause), doors open (pause), left (pause) side. And on some rare (luckily) occasions, he does At the current time it is eight fifteen, eight fifteen, AM.
Eddie Murphie did a routine about conductor school a few years ago on SNL. It was fun but lets hope it's not true.
A conductor that likes their job is great fun to listen to. I have had some great rides but they are far and few between.
I had a great conductor on the Q yesterday from DeKalb to 57th. He (over)enthusiastically announced each stop and transfer. At 47-50 he even announced the destinations of the B, D, and F.
The old map is still posted at 57th. While I was closely examining it, a woman offered to help me find where I was going -- I wonder if she realized that I'd never find my way on that map. I didn't get a picture since it was too close to the glass-enclosed fare-paid zone, which I had already exited elsewhere in the station. (Granted, I was using a Fun Pass so I could have reentered, but I couldn't bring myself to enter the subway and "pay" a fare that I wasn't even going to use.)
What's a conductor?
Check the FAQ.
No need for insults!
A conductor is the person waving a baton while at the head of an orchestra.
He Shoots, He Scores
LOL
Peace,
Andee
And I've worked with some monotonous conductors who had no business being on the podium.-)
There was a conductor on what is now the Red line in Chicago back in the early 80s who sounded like a disc jockey. Made for an interesting ride.
The person who used to work with you, before OPTO.
OPTO, you mean what cheapend "rapid transit" in Chicago?
That would also include the elimination of the A/B service that ended prior to OPTO
Thank you. BTW, when will streetcar service in Kenosha,Wi.begin?
June is likely for as service start
Will let you know when a date is set.
??? Sorry, I don't see what your post has to do with mine.
Some conducters don't seem to realize that they don't have to yell into the PA system.
Let me get this straight. You turned your walkman up to maximum volume to drown out the PA anouncements (which you say were too loud) and then you wonder why you had trouble hearing afterwards - DUH.
I am a subway conductor and can explain the problem with PA systems.
Many customers think that we are screaming into the mic and this is not the case. I have spoken a full 3 feet away from the speaker and heard myself echoing through the open train doors. Many PA systems are not adjusted properly and we cannot do anything to correct this problem enroute. We do "write up" defective PA systems on the car defect sheets at the end of our shift. Hopefully, the communications department repairs them properly. The Humming problem is another headache for train riders and us conductors. Many R68 and 68A's have this problem. We have it worse in our cabs- it comes through the intercom system between our cab and the train operator's cab. This is a defect as far as we know and the communications dept. so far has been unable to eliminate it. We were told that this noise originates from the wiring in the train. It is not continuous and is louder on certain sections of tunnel. This humming also affects our announcements and customers have told me that they cannot hear me with this humming. Hopefully the electricians will find the cause and repair it. Right now, many of us wear ear plugs so we don't lose our hearing!
Thank You for a concise and intelligent response
Peace,
Andee
PA Amplifier gain is pre-set at the electronics lab and is not supposed to be field adjusted. The real problem with the PA is that the mic plate is at a standard height but the conductor's mouth is not. He/She can be too far away because they are either too short or too tall. Another problem is that we don't all speak at the same volume. There is no auto-level control built in to the PA system.
One thing I suggested at a recent conference on this subject is that all conductors wear wireless mics like they wear in Burgerking. This way the conductor can always speak at a controled distance from the mic. He/she can also speak while the platform is being observed. The problem of communications was one of the subjects of a 3-day conference held last week. Upper management is serious about solving or at least improving the problems in this area.
By the way, the problem of the PA/IC hum on the R-68/68A has been well documented. Progress by TA engineering has been painfully slow. As a regular rider of R-68s, I can appreciate the scope of the problem.
Steve, I was involved in a massive project in 1991 about
PA volume and alternate means of mic'ing the c/r. Management
was "serious about communication" then too. The more things
change.....
...and, Thank you also for an intelligent response.
Peace,
Andee
I know but just wanted to do it briefly to see if conductor was still to be heard or not.
R36Gary
In the long term, you'll do more damage to your ears form your loud WalkMan than from the loud PA. LOL!!!!!! P.S.: Don't blame the conductor. What may be loud in one car may be soft in another car.
I was on 9637-9636 on the 7 line and this conductor was SO LOUD that when I got off, I couldn't hear that well. I also put my Walkman at the highest volume and I still heard the conductor loud and clear. I heard that car 2153 also has a very loud intercom on 3 line.
R36Gary
What are those two provision tunnels after leving Whithall to head into BKlyn? I think that was for SI link??????
3Train#1921Mike
Someone suggested a few months ago when this very same question arose that those turnouts were meant for a secondary tunnel parralleling the Montague St tunnel so that Broadway trains could use it and the Montague St. tubes could be used for Nassau St. loop service only. I'm not sure about the validity of this scenerio, as the Nassau Loop wasn't built until 1931, 13 years after the Montague St. tunnel opened.
too far for a tunnel to S.I.
Consider Govenors Island before the Brklyn Bat tun.
Just dropping a word to Steve at Concourse-Yard:
#2712-2713-2715-2714 ALL FOUR CARS have runaway scratchitti, on every window, much worse than your everyday normal etching.
#2658: the door chime is still awry. Except now it sounds a little different than it did the first go round.
A pleasant run on the "D" this afternoon - we managed to get from 125th Street to 59th Street without having the "C" local beat us. Time: 6:52. A nice smooth, comfortable ride aboard #2619. And the R110B was out today too, we saw it northbound at 125th Street.
Wayne
Anything under 7 minutes for the CPW express 59th/125th St. run is downright great.
We were southbound. We moved along smartly and the GT around 81st Street didn't seem to even faze us. Mind you, we weren't flying, just moving along at an efficient, even pace. I would guess top speed was somewhere about 42MPH.
Wayne
Looks like there are some more 4300-series Slant R40s on the "L" judging from the unit numbers I saw today: #4372-4373, #4392-4393, #4386-4387... plus there looked to be at least four full consists sleeping in ENY Yard and four R40 "L"s out on the road as well (I didn't get down to see what was at the Rockaway Parkway yard). That would give Eastern Division at least 64 R40s instead of 48.
I saw NO R40 numbers above #4360-4361 on the "Q" or "N" today.
Is there another equipment swap going on? Where are the displaced R40M/R42 from the "L" off to? Or are they just adding more cars to the Eastern Division...
Wayne
I ask you , because I defer to your Knowledge of the subject.
Do you agree oor disagree with my notion that an odd couple R/40&R/40M
leading three sets of R/40M's followed by a final odd couple of R/40M&R40 on the Howard Beach -Broad Channel run , with the wind, would give Hippo lovers reason to soil there Trousers?
One reasom why more Slant R40s are turning up in the east is because those 10 R42s that were used for the CBTC testing are still in C.I. yard out of service.
Okay, we had an interesting contest about the best year in NYC transit history - so how about the worst?
I'd go for 1978. The graffiti plague was at its zenith - well, nadir might be a better term - and as far as I know there weren't any plans to eliminate it. Deferred maintenance also was at its worst. I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that the recently introduced R-44 cars were being pulled out of service to correct defects, and much of the equipment was getting really long in the tooth. Ridership was dropping and the system as a whole was contracting (the Bowling Green and Culver shuttles recently had been closed, and the Jamaica El either just had closed or was about to). And let's not forget that the cancellation of the Second Avenue line was all too recent. About the only bad thing that wasn't at its worst in 1978 was crime, which AFAIK peaked in the middle 1980's.
That was the R-46.
Track fires were commonplace by 1982, slowing down service on all lines, and our sterling youth continued to dominate subway cars with their graffiti. And, deferred maintenace was so bad that you'd see handwritten signs taped to the cab windows so you could tell what train it was when it pulled into your station.
As I recall it wasn't till David Gunn, a man with an actual plan, arrived, that the plague was staunched.
I'd vote 81-83 as worst ever.
www.forgotten-ny.com
83 was the year that something was finally done to fix the mess the system was in. Thank Mario Cuomo, who finally got Albany to pass a multi-billion 5 year capital plan that saw the rehab of all the subway cars, including grafitti removal, and thousands of new cars purchased. By early 1985, the improvements were noticable, with the first rehabbed redbirds running on the IRT.
I missed that period altogether. Let me rephrase that: I wasn't around to experience that dismal timeframe. Rehabbed Redbirds were on the 7 by October of 1984 when I visited the city for the first time in four years. Marker lights were still being used; I wrote down as many combinations as I could spot on trains. On one such occasion, I was noting the green-white setting on a D train of R-32s, and the motorman looked at me as if to say "What the &#@! are you doing?" When I told him, he replied it should be correct.
It was good to be back. Too bad the R-10s weren't on the A anymore.-)
Mine might be the day the great Triplexes went by the boards. Those were magnificent specimens; they looked regal, yet forceful. I think it was in 1965 they ceased to exist.
1984 When they painted the Flushing line from the beautiful WF colors into the "Redbird". The 7 train was the only IRT line which had a distinct look to it. Now it looks like any other IRT train.
Didn't they go Silver and Blue MTA colors and then Whitebird on the 7 before they went Redbird?
Not that that would change your point -- in my opinion, that made it even worse, though I would push it forward a little: Going from the World's Fair colors to the MTA colors and the whitebirds was a disaster; repainting those trains as Redbirds was a distinct improvement, though not as good as if they had gone back to the original color scheme (maybe if the Flushing birds have one paint job left before retirement, they could do it just for old times' sake)
My vote is for 1980. Deferred maintenance was most notable this year as train breakdowns and derailments skyrocketed. The R46 cracked truck debacle was in full force. And of course, the 2 week strike in April.
Oh, gee, so many to choose from...
I could say 1957, the year it became obvious that tripling the fare wasn't working and the TA began its darkest era of service cuts and deferred maintenance without which the worst years of the '70s and '80s would not have been possible.
But still, for a single year, 1940 wins hands down. That was the year private enterprise lost its place in New York rapid transit, that four major elevated lines were closed in the course of weeks, and the administration and planning of New York's transit future were delivered into the hands of the gray bureaucrats.
I'd have to agree with Paul Matus on this one. Things were never quite the same since June 1st, 1940.
--Mark
when the cushin seats were replaced on the R-12,R-15,R-16,R-1/9,R-10. The replacement fiberglass shells didn,t always fit the body to well. On the cars that had the plastic seats as original equipment were contoured a little better. Damn the vandals anyway! A seat was worth the fare.
avid
ps I just don't know the exact year.
1967 when they merged the BMT and IND into one division, and screwed everything up. Next will be when they open the 63rd St Extension.
1967 when they merged the BMT and IND into one division, and screwed everything up. Next will be when they open the 63rd St Extension.Also when they removed the 3rd Ave El in 54 and jammed up the Lex
1967 was a watershed year for me, as that was the year we moved to Jersey and I became immersed in the NYC subway system. I'm not saying it was a great year, but a lot of the equipment that's gone now was still moaning and groaning along. At least the R-10s still had that racy teal-and-blue paint scheme, which was my favorite.
1980 & 81 were the worst years, when it seemed like no one was in charge. The 1980 transit strike. The subway yards were open to vandals so grafitti was at it's peak. The R46's were pulled out of service because of cracked trucks. By early 1981 the system reached it's low point. Only after David Gunn re-established control over the system did real improvements take place. By 1987 the system had come back from near death.
the years the LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM WAS ALLOWED TO SELF EMPLODE
NEGLECTED SHUT DOWN AND DESTROYED 1959-1960s .............
now we are STICK in traffic and SLOW BUSES is our transportation !!!!! .....
The LA rail system didn't self Implode, it was murdered!!!
That means the worst year in LA transit history happend to be whatever year it is currently. The traffic on the freeways is choking, the buses are slow and cumbersome and we need rail traffic here in the worst way. But we don;t get it. LA is too spread out but light rail like the Blue Line from Long Beach to LA is one good step in the right direction.
LA had it at one time, a pretty comprehnsive city system and the greatest interurban system in America. It was killed by auto interests, a government in thrall to Detroit and public indefference. If those pressures could have been resisted (and it was in some blessed areas elsewhere) what was there could have been refined and expanded.
LA was surrendered to the automobile, and NOTHING, not gas prices, clogged roads, clean air regs, NOTHING will get Angelenos out of them.
LA is a prime example that the automobile has the highest social cost of any mode of transport ever invented.
BUT now gasoline costs TWO DOLLARS A GALLON !!!
man what what in the hell is going on here ??? TROLLEY AND RAIL TRACKS where POLLUTING
buses belching up DIESEL SMOKE instead of our system MORE LIKE THE BLUE LINE !!!!
it was wrong to rip our RED PACIFIC ELECTRIC TRANSIT RAILWAY SYSTEM 100% COMPLETELY OUT
the AUTOMOBILE along with my 1982 oldsmobile powered chevrolet wagon is a miserable failure
ESPECIALLY the one person one automobile OPOA jammed on the 110 710 210 134 5 91 105 FREEWAYS !
now we are PAYING THE AWFUL PRICE no mass rail transit almost none at all
JUST A USELESS RED LINE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE !!! and where the public dosent go !!!
now in todays mail i reciecved a NOTICE ON BUILDING THE PASADENA BLUE LINE !!!!?????
with no CONNECTION TO THE LONG BEACH BLUE LINE >>> !!!!!!!
i will have to post this later when i re visit this subject about how LOST ANGELES screwed up !!!
it makes me so mad to even think of this !!!
You guys ever check out the plot of Who Framed Roger Rabbit, get rid of the Red Cars and Build Freeways?
On the flip-side, did you see the movie "Volcano"?
I wouldn't be surprised if the anti-transit forces pooled their money to fund that entire picture. I seem to recall either Anne Heche or Tommy Lee Jones saying something like "Whose idea was it to build a subway in the most fault-prone places on earth?" as the lava fictionally destroyed any hope of a subway there.
We should check the producer credits for GM, Ford, Firestone, and Goodyear.
It was Anne Heche. I guess these people don't remember BART and the 1989 Loma Prieta quake, but I guess people only remember what sounds good to them.
BART is in san francisco !!! thought you knew that !!!!!
So is Loma Prieta !!!! And an earthquake in 1989 !!!!
FINALLY you admit you are wrong !!!!!! wow that is a SUBTALK FIRST !!!!!
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? YOU WERE WRONG IN THINKING I WAS WRONG!
OK, I admit I was wrong, I admit in trying to fight with this child
no pigs you are not my child !!!
True, but you have the brain of one aged about five.
not bad !! at least i was not born yesterday like you !!!
Funny, you ACT like you were born yesterday. You have the opinions of someone who was born yesterday. Your posts look like something a 7-year-old would write, so I guess you WEREN'T born yesterday.
-Hank
i am sure you were born yesterday !! thats your opinion !!! and thats all that it is !
pigs was born yesterday so as you said i have 7 years on him and you !!! CHILL OUT DRINK A BEER !!!
I thought BART survived that quake with flying colors, even taking extra paying commuters afterward, when the Bay Bridge was out. Is that what you're referring to? Is your point that Angelenos are looking for any excuse NOT to build their subway, even when those excuses don't hold water? That's the impression I get, but then I'm on the East Coast.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying! The system was back online in about 24 hours, as soon as power was back, and it was the ONLY way across with the Bay Bridge was out for a while.
In 1948 Los Angeles had a plan to rebuild the Pacific Electric with downtown subways and new lines in freeway medians. The plan wasn't funded.
The same sort of thing was happening in cities all across the country between 1945 and 1965. Most resources, including those of the Federal government, went into highways. Very few transit improvements were done during that period.
RIGHT ON !! you have told it exactly like it is these same FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TYPES like those
who tell us 100% LIES THAT WE HAVE TO FILL OUT THE CENSUS FORM - I WILL NOT !!!!
if they could they would have destroyed the new york subway system !!!
they got over BIG TIME on southern california ! NOW WE NEED THE RAIL TRANSIT THAT WAS TAKEN
AWAY !!!! maybe san francisco had more sense !!! the so called REPLACEMENT dosent even scratch the
' surface WE SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAD OUR RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM TAKEN AWAY !!
and the good for NOTHING BUS SYSTEM is a miserable failure !!!!....
Well Salaamallah you get an idea of how ticked off I am. Fortunately I live two miles from where I work so I can avoid the freeways. But when I have to get on those damn things, it steams me because I move at a snail's pace and feel I need a drink when the ordeal is over---even thought I don't drink.
When I lived in Northridge Ca, I had to work in Culver City. It was a hour each way if I was lucky to gover over the Hill on the 405 Parking Lot. Problem is no transportation except to Westwood, and then the bus gets back on the Freeway to LAX, both the MTA and the DOT Bus
Well we're in total agreement there. The traffic is terrible and tempers are very short nowadays. As I said before, I'm fortunate to live only two miles from where I teach. I really feel sorry for some of my colleagues who must drive 50 miles to work and leave two hours before they're in the classroom. Light Rail we need and badly.
Got a firstime sighting of the Money Train on the
IRT 2 line this eve around 845pm at Fulton.. later
seen hiding in the tunnel at 42nd.. A guy with
GREEN hair and a black overcoat stumbled onto the
trackbed from the platform.. all to retrieve a
Subway Map ((with the train-arriving signal blaring))..
and last but not least, at 72nd Street, after having
had an empty redbird car and window to myself, passengers
boarded and one of them approached the railfan window
beside me... the train lunged forward, and she trampled
into the side panel.. looked at her finger.. saw she
broke a nail.. and said what I say whenever I hear about
the r-142's... sounds like FRANK.
RedbirdFANatic1/9
Did Frank break another nail? Oh fudge!
avid
You can see the collector most any weekday morning btwn 3/4 am at the Bedford Park Blvd stop on the Concourse Line.
Peace,
Andee
A guy with GREEN hair and a black overcoat stumbled onto the trackbed from the platform.. all to retrieve a Subway Map ((with the train-arriving signal blaring))..
Them #(&*(#&$*(# Martian Railfans .....
--Mark
Are the Montauk tracks still in passenger service? I took a 4:53 from LIC today and was disappointed when it took the main line. I was expecting to ride the Montauk tracks....
www.forgotten-ny.com
I believe there are a couple of diesel trains that make the run from Jamaica to LIC daily.
If your talking about the tracks that go to right just after LIC, then I did see a bi-level go that way at about 4:05pm. I found it strange since most of the trains head towards Hunterspoint Ave.
The 4:54 PM from LIC should take the Montauk branch and the 8:11 AM from Jamaica should also.
Maybe they were doing track work.
-- Kirk
Riding on the Montauk Branch (LIC Line) just isn't the same with the new trains. Even though it is totally in the city (Queens) I've always thought of that line as the Hooterville Cannonball from Pettycoat Junction/Green Acres, especially when it still stopped at the platformless stations that was discontinued a few years ago.
That's right - those are the two trains each weekday that take the Montauk (Long Island City) branch.
However, I heard that with the March 20 change in the timetables, they may be adding a couple more.
According to the new timetables available at the LIRR website, there will be five trains arriving and five departing LIC, as opposed to three and four now.
Butonly one WB (811a Jam.) and one EB (454p LIC) may take the old Montauk Line.
Thre was an announcement at Mineola this morning that, with the March 20th timetable, there would be a few additional trains going to LIC. Unfortunately, I see now that they'll be going through Hunterspoint Ave. and not along the Montauk branch.
I suppose there'e no real need for ANY passenger trains to use the Montauk between LIC and Jamaica, since those stations were closed.
How much freight uses the line?
www.forgotten-ny.com
[I suppose there'e no real need for ANY passenger trains to use the Montauk between LIC and Jamaica, since those stations were closed.]
You're probably right, although sending trains via the Montauk frees up capacity on the mainline through Queens. I don't know if that's really an issue. In any event, it's good to have at least one train go via the Montauk simply because it's such an interesting route.
[How much freight uses the line?]
A fair amount, I'd say. The line passes through the NY&A's Fresh Pond yard, which is busier than you'd expect.
It is an interesting route, but much more so when the other stations were open. I assume they are planning to use the main line much more otherwise they could have kept Richmond Hill open since it had high platforms for the new tri-levels. I understand one of the reasons they closed the stations on the line was because they had low (actually no) platforms.
[It is an interesting route, but much more so when the other stations were open. I assume they are planning to use the main line much more otherwise they could have kept Richmond Hill open since it had high platforms for the new tri-levels. I understand one of the reasons they closed the stations on the line was because they had low (actually no) platforms.]
Determining the basic reason for the station closures is a bit of a challenge. It's true that except for Richmond Hill, the stations lacked high platforms and weren't usable by the new equipment, but platforms could have been built if the stations had had sufficient ridership. Needless to say, ridership had been minimal (usually single digits) for years. So the station closures were really due to low ridership as much as to the lack of platforms. But wait! You can go back another step in the causation chain, and say that ridership was so low because there hadn't been adequate service. But why was service so poor? Well, there was little ridership (are we in a circle, or what?). But why was ridership so low? That's because of the loss of jobs at the industries that used to be located along the line.
So now we've gotten somewhere:
1) Loss of industrial jobs caused ridership to plummet.
2) Low ridership caused the LIRR to reduce service.
3) Reduced service caused ridership to fall even further.
4) (Very) low ridership made it uneconomical to built platforms.
5) Lack of platforms made the stations unsuitable for the new trains.
The stations on the Montauk Branch have been ripe for closing for decades. The service was kept essentially because of inertia. When the point came that the LIRR would have had to spend money for high level platforms for ADA compliance, that was the bump that broke the inertia.
Beyond that:
1) There was little ridership because there was little service.
2) There was little ridership AND little service because the line went nowhere at a high price. Someone wanting to get from Maspeth to Herald Square, say, had to pay the high LIRR pay PLUS the subway fare. New York is the only one of the three big eastern commuter cities that doesn't include the local bus/subway ride as part of the commuter ticket.
3) There was negative support for increased rail service in the community.
4) Even if there were community support and commitment to a reasonable fare structure, operation of (say) a new light rail service would be iffy because of conflict with substantial freight traffic.
I'm glad I was able to ride on one of the last morning passenger runs that stopped at the Montauk stations. When we passed Glendale, there were residents with a sense of history there out snapping pictures of the event.
Makes you proud to be an American.
Of course I used my LIRR monthly pass, and didn't have to pay the $4.75 for a slow ride in a decrepit car with only two windows I could actually look out of!
www.forgotten-ny.com
[ ...a slow ride in a decrepit car with only two windows I could actually look out of! ]
You had two windows you could look out of???!!!!
How did you pay off?
>>You had two windows you could look out of???!!!! <<<
On the old units you usually had one clear window to each side, in each car, directly opposite each other. At least this was the case for the LIC, Oyster Bay and Greenport runs; I never did ride the Babylon branch on them and went out to Port Jeff only once.
I did make the fantrip on Sept. 25 that toured them all over the system, even on the Port Washington branch, where they were rarely, or never, used before.
One time, though, I did get a car for the LIC run that featured mostly clean windows...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Other fun sites for urban explorers:
www.darkpassage.com
www.coneyislandusa.com
And those folks aren't paying me...
I dunno. They coulda got some plywood and some hammers, and jury-rigged high level platforms at RH, Fresh Pond, Glendale etc. like they did with that handy-dandy one at LIC.
Of course, the neighborhood youth and other assorted vandals would have a say in whether any cheaply made high level platform would have survived long in these locations...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Didn't Richmond Hill already have high platforms?
[Didn't Richmond Hill already have high platforms?]
Yes.
Remember the original R46 roll signs? I remember one part that read:
GG Continental Avenue
Church Avenue
I think it would be great if the TA ran the GG to Church Avenue rush hours, and use those IND center express tracks for the F!!
They have the rails, put them into damn use! ANnd don't tell me about the GG is now the G, cause I like the GG better!
The people on the local stations should not be relegated to using the useless G.
How about making the G Expresss betwen Church Ave and Bergen St and Keep the F Local, or do what they did years ago, The Trains that started at Kings Hwy were Local, and the Coney Island Trains ran Exp.
There's one problem: the express tracks don't connect directly with Crosstown Line at Bergen St. A G express is unlikely.
-Stef
We've been down this road before. An F express from Kings Highway is a big loser for local stations between Church and Jay, where the bulk of the riders are. There would be fewer trains, but they would still be crowded since they would have picked up passengers from Kings Highway on. You'd have the G, but it doesn't go to Manhattan.
On the other hand, running half the F trains and all the G trains local to Church might be fair compensation compensation for being bypassed -- if there are enough F trains. The F locals would pull out of Church empty, so while Brownstone Brooklyn riders would have to wait a little longer, they might also be able to get a seat. Riders south of Church would also have to wait a little longer, but they'd have a faster ride.
I'd say you'd need eight F expresses to Stillwell, plus 8 F locals to Church and the G, at rush hours. People would still complain, but as a local station rider, I'd say it was fair. Off peak, you'd have to run the F local all the way, and not leave my station with the G alone.
That requires more trainsets and crews. But the TA is already running 18 F trains from Queens all the way down to Coney Island, and just 14 trains in from Brooklyn, at rush hour. Perhaps by running a more balanced F schedule (and adding a couple of E trains from Queens), the TA would gain enough to make it work.
I think the TA has the resources to put that plan into effect, split half the Fs for local express, and run the GG to Church Avenue.
This will result in halving the amount of F trains running to Manhattan and from Manhattan at local stops. All for a 3-5 minute shorter ride for some riders. Morning headways on the F to Manhattan at local stops would be 10 minutes. Unacceptable.
...I'd say you'd need eight F expresses to Stillwell, plus 8 F locals to Church ...Morning headways on the F to Manhattan at local stops would be 10 minutes
How does 8 tph yield 10 minute headways?
Doesn't the F run 12 TPH to Manhattan from Brooklyn in the AM? I know it runs 14 TPH from Queens to Manhattan in the morning. 12 TPH, cut in half leaves 6 TPH, which means 10 minute headways. Perhaps I've been given wrong information.
Last I heard the F ran 14 tph from Brooklyn and 18 from Queens. It might have been cut in the recession, but has since been restored. We're also up to 8 tph in the middays.
Besides Stef's info about no transfer at Bergen St, the turnout south of Kings Highway that was used to put in expresses from Stillwell Avenue is no longer there.
--Mark
How about terminating local trains at Avenue X? All northbound trains out of Av X would run on the middle track, make a stop at Avenue U thanks to a platform extension, then local trains will move to the local track, while express trains stay on the middle track.
Southbound express trains would cross over to the local track at KH, then make all stops to C.I.
Southbound local trains will terminate at X, then depart in the opposite direction, thanks to an extra train crew on the platform, that switches places with the train crew that brought the train to Av. X.
Thats ok too! Run the GG express from Bergen to Church. The IND has trackage at Church for layups and turnarounds!!!
How? The express tracks feed into the 6th Ave. line to JAy St. and beyond. It's impossible to run the G as an express. And why bother? Who would want that service? This line will only see express service when a new 6th Ave line has been created (hopefully after the 63rd. St. connector opens) to provide local service directly to Manhattan.
Aw, cmon just for a few hours!! The GG is NOT useless!!!!
The G is ALWAYS useless whenever there is another train. There's no reason more people should be forced to ride a train to nowhere.
I would not say the G oops GG is a useless train. Any portion of rapid transit should be welcomed, not rejected.
It's not "useless". It's lack of Manhattan access merely transfers most of it's riders to other oerburdened transit lines. The G line was supposed to have transfers to other, never built IND lines that would have spread out the G line's Manhattan bound passangers. So the A, C, E, F, R, and L lines have to absorb tens of thousands of passangers it wouldn't normally have to if the G went into Manhattan.
And I still think that the terminal for the G at Smith and 9th Street is ridiculous and always has been.
AMEN! It's not now nor ever was a proper terminal.
Every train goes somewhere, for some people, maybe it is nowhere for you because you don t use it, but for the people who use it, it goes somewhere
This was done during rush hours from 1967-73, but people from Carrol Gardens and Park Slope complained about the lack of Manhattan bound trains at local stations. I'd still like to see the G extended to Church Ave anyway. Smith/9th St is a very weird place to terminate a line, as Church Ave was designed as a terminal station. And it would make the x-fer from the 4th Ave BMT to the G line easier.
Chris R16 has the best suggestion in this thread.
I totally agree with extending the G to Church Avenue. Why not do that, then have a service on the F similar to what the 6 line does in the Bronx:
F (Kings Highway) trains will run local between Jay Street and Kings Highway.
F (Coney Island) trains will run express between Jay Street and Kings Highway, then make all local stops to Coney Island. Express service will run in both directions between Jay St and Church Av, and express in the peak direction only between Church Avenue and Kings Highway. This would actually give a good reason to terminate trains at Kings Highway.
Other good reason! BUT DONT FORGET WE HAVE A FULL TURNBACK FACILITY IN PLACE AT CHURCH AVENUE SINCE 1933!!!!
Well what about the lower level of Bergen Street it dosn't have no tile, so if there going to restore the "G" to express they have to built the tiles At Lower Bergen. Its weird that they should run the "G" Express in Bklyn they od to run the "F" express between Bergen-Church like how it was back then. They could still run "G" to Church because its weird terminating there because that will delay "F" trains
also because their express tracks and how about if there are express trains using those tracks how the hell will the "G" switch tracks to go to Queens.
Using Church Ave to terminate the G line would still create those annoying delays as the G train discharges and moves out of the station. However, since Church Ave is farther down the line, the delays would impact fewer people. One way to avoid this is to build a switch from the local track over to the express track just north of Church so the F trains could go "around" the G trains. But the grade just north of Church Ave dips too quickly to do this.
Didn t they do this back in the 70s and eliminate it due to money problems, It worked then, it can work now
I believe they have the tile in stock (white and two shades of green) but haven't placed it because a) the station is out of service; b) there is a water problem down there. They'll have to make new tablets too but they've gotten VERY GOOD at doing that lately! Just look at Metropolitan/Grand on the "G" (IND Style) and Lorimer Street adjacent on the "L" (classic BMT Vickers style) - there are ALL NEW tablets in the IND station and numerous new ones in the BMT station and only a trained eye can tell the difference between the old and new.
BTW on Monday a pair of craftsmen were VERY CAREFULLY preparing a damaged section of frieze for repair at Lorimer Street, chipping away with hand tools, one 1/2" square bit of tile at a time. A tray on the platform held the tiny replacements, all new and all correctly colored and glazed. I love it when they exercise that degree of care and attention to detail when making repairs and restorations.
Wayne
03/16/2000
My question here is why since lower level Bergen St, is considered abandoned, did they remove the wall tiles? They didn't remove the wall tiles on all the other abandoned stations, why this station?
Bill Newkirk
They didn't remove the wall tiles, there never were any!
Bergen Street did have tiles when it was used for F rush hour express service from 1967-76. Standard IND issue. The reported water problem on the lower level may be why the tiles were removed -- no sense damaging them any more than they already were if the station is going to be unused.
A few at the extreme end of one of the platforms still were in place the last time I rode an F through the lower level (during a 1994 track repair re-route).
I agree with Chris. Terminating the G at Smith-Ninth Streets continually delays Coney Island bound F trains. Every day I see F trains waiting on the trestle waiting for G to clear the station. Rsstoring the G to its proper terminal at Church Ave might give that line some extra traffic by passengers working in downtown Brooklyn who live in Park Slope, Kensington, etc. It is definitely worth a try
It worked very well back in 1994 when the Smith/9th St. interlocking was replaced.
Proper terminal isn't exactly accurate. It has always, with a few exceptions, terminated at Smith-9th. Preferred terminal.
EXCELLENT POINT!!! Smith 9th is NOT a proper terminal station!! Church Avenue is!! In fact, Church Avenue has a seperate lower level to lay up and turnaround several train sets!!
It does? I knew it had a loop for turning trains but I didn't know that Church Ave had a separate lower level to store trains. Then the G should terminate there even if it means running all F and G trains local.
There is no loop at Church Avenue, just storage tracks that can be used for relays or..to store trains...
Only South Ferry, City Hall and some yards have loops. There are no loops on the IND, and there haven't been any on the BMT since 1944 (Sands Street).
Yes, thankfully the IND forefathers knew that Church Avenue...in those pre unification days, would be a TERMINAL STATION. Beyong Church Avenue, going south (e.g., heading to the old BMT el) you have switches from all four tracks descending to a lower level, with another crossover..to permit full lay ups and turnarounds, like a TRUE TERMINAL STATION should have.
Sound like and excellent subject for building a model for the MTH R/40M some of the subtalkers recently received.
avid
And one more thing____Why in blazes does the G train terminate at Smith and 9th Street? That makes no sense at all and it makes the old F train's terminal at Church Avenue look like a stroke of genius which, of course, it certainly is not.
Sorry, Guy - a lot of us may prefer GG, but that's NOT the name of the route. It's G. It's been G for 12 years. Let's get over it and move on already.
Lesson 1: Never confuse the name of the thing with what the thing is called.
Lesson 2: It's okay to remember the past, but we shouldn't have to live there.
Although double letters were eliminated in 1985, i was still hearing conductors referring to the old double letter routes well into the 1990's.
My question is why the F train goes to Coney Island at all. You have the Brighton, West End and Sea Beach going there. A fourth train only clutters up things. The F used to run from 179th Street in Jamaica to Church Avenue, while the GG ran only to Smith and 9th ( still its terminal). Why the F was extended to Coney Island is beyond me, except for the fact that the Culver Shuttle was eliminated sometime soon after I left New York in 1954. If the F terminated at Church as it used to, it would solve the problems that have been brought up on this subject.
Why the F was extended to Coney Island is beyond me, except for the fact that the Culver Shuttle was eliminated sometime soon after I left New York in 1954. If the F terminated at Church as it used to, it would solve the problems that have been brought up on this subject.
The reason given at the time was to add 8 more trains to the Brighton Line during the morning rush hour.
There would still be "clutter" as you call it if the BMT Culver line continued to go to C.I. as it did before the F was extended.
C.I. houses 4 lines: Sea Beach, Brighton, Culver, and West End. Change the Culver line to a shuttle (9 Av-Ditmas Av) and extend the F line from Church Av to C.I., and you still have Sea Beach, Brighton, Culver, West End, with a little bit of IND-6 Av mixed in on Tks 5 & 6.
I think that it's a long climb to transfer from the 4th Av line to the IND at 9th St. Maybe it was done to save the Coney Islanders' time and energy commuting to work along the 6th Av line.
The Culver/IND connection was planned well before it's completion in 1954. At that time, it would have been the only IND access to Coney Island. Before unification, this would've been very important. Besides, with the elimination of the 5th Ave. el in 1940, the Culver line had no where to go other than to Chambers St. during the rush hours. Culver el riders are better served by the IND connection.
Well, Culver BMT trains also could have went DeKalb bypass and up Broadway to terminate at 57/7 or Queensboro Plaza or Astoria?
Impossible, with Brighton, Sea Beach and West End trains jamming those tracks. Disconnecting the Culver line from the BMT 4th Ave. line cleared up some of the congeston through Dekalb. That alone might justify the connection.
The interesting question is whether or not the TA will (or will be able to) run the second Queens Boulevard local (call it the V) through to Brooklyn. I would guess no. First of all, the prevailing tendency is to screw Brooklyn any way possible. Second, the Culver doesn't need that many more trains. I take it, and while its a little snug at the absolute peak, its not bad.
The only way I see this happening is if:
a) The number of Fs is cut to 12, and the number of Es expanded to 18, on Queens Boulevard.
b) An F express with 12 TPH attracts Brighton and West End riders, allowing service cuts on those lines. If you could go back to 16 tph on the Brighton without worse crowding, you'd free up trains and take the traffic off Manny B.
c) The V is less popular than expected in Queens, so they decide to run, say, 10 tph with short trains all the way to Church rather than 12 tph with full trains to 2nd Avenue.
In that case, they might make the F express, and run the V as a local to Church Ave (along with the G) rather than 2nd Ave. Heck, with that many trains they could even split the F, with 6 tph local from Stillwell and express from Kings Highway, and 6 tph local from Kings Highway and express from Church Ave.
Church ve is the only serious alternative to terminate the proposed V train. Second Ave cannot operate as a terminal stop, especially during rush hours. The capacity of the signals there wouldn't not allow it without serious bottlnecking problems.
I believe the extra service is warraned. Park Slope continues to grow at an increasing rate, and the F train has taken on new importance to the neighborhood, now populated by yuppies who don't drive to/from work.
The capacity of the signals there wouldn't not allow it without serious bottlnecking problems.
Track geometry, train operating characteristics and safety margins define capacity - not signals.
In 1954 they brought the D to the Culver Line, this was changed in 67 when the D was put on the Brighton. Prior to 1954 the F ran to Church Ave and the D to Hudson Term(WTC) During those years the D switch terminals a few times. The Old Culver Line NEVER ran North of Chambers St and always used Nassau St
In 1954 they brought the D to the Culver Line
Why do you suppose they made that switch in 1954?
No Idea. Prior to that the D ran only in Manhatten and Bronx and the F was a 3 boro line, when they did the IND extension south of Church Ave the Terminals Switched, The F ran only to Manhatten either 2nd Ave or 34th St, and the D to Brooklyn via the Culver.
The switch was made in 1954 so that they could continue running 660' 11-car trains on the F during rush hours. The platforms on the BMT Culver could not platform long trains.
Perhaps capacity was the wrong word. Using Second Ave. during rush hours as a terminal causes a bottleneck at this particular area.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. GG was not broken.
The system was broken, it no longer made any sense, and there was no shortage of single letters.
The intentionally poor grammar of that proverb shows how stupid it actually is.
Had nothing ever been "fixed," civilization would never have come to exist.
The system made perfect sense, double letters were locals, single letters were expresses. Of course, the "GG" was indeed a local service, even though it never offered an express service.
If it pleases you, you might say "If it is not broken, do not fix it". The meaning is still the same.
Actually, things are better off in some cases left alone. If you believe this is a civilizied planet, I have a R1 to to sell you. Or perhaps you have been on your own Island far too long...lol
By the time it was abandoned in 1985, it no longer made sense.
I think you should look up CIVILIZED in the dictionary (you'll never find civilizied). Just because you may not approve of the culture of the majority of the world, does not give you the power to decide where civilization ends.
I believe it made perfect sense by the fact the the route name was established since 1937 and was used by generations of Brooklyn commuters. Just as those who still refer to the "B" as the West End, the "D" as the Brighton Line, and the "N" as the Sea Beach Line, a lot of people still refer to the "G" as the "GG".
No great harm here!
Since I am a human being, I make mistakes. I misspelled a word, but my point is made. I never said I did not approve of the culture of most of the world, I simply said, more or less, that some things are better off left alone. Get off that Island for God's sake already.
There is a caveat to your message. As everyone with a scintilla of a brain knows I'm a Sea Beach fanatic, yet the people in Queens that rode that line with me in that borough didn't have a clue that the train was the SB unless they looked at the sign in the train that said Astoria-Broadway-Sea Beach. The Sea Beach is only known by that name in Brooklyn. Even when I was a kid Manhattanites used to call it the Broadway Express. I found that disgusting because the name Sea Beach just sounded cool. I never refer to it as the "N", though I do remember my relatives calling it the #4 train when it carried that designation.
When we were kids in the 50s there was never a Broadway EXP or Local It was the Brighton Exp and Local, West End Exp or Local or Sea Beach Exp. Those are what the signs said. The people from the other boros did not know the right terms. That is why Brooklyn was a great place to grow up, except for the Dodgers
Being a Yankee fan in Brooklyn during the 40's and up to 1958 has to rank along the lines of Benedict Arnold. How a Brooklynite or one that was born in Brooklyn and had relatives there and spent some of their time there could ever root for those snobs from the Bronx is beyond me. I can accept you being a Democrat but a Yankee fan from Brooklyn back then is just plain disgusting on the face of it. BTW your message also reminded me that I believe those Sea Beach, West End and Brighton Express signs were also in Manhattan (unless I'm mistaken) but those highbrows still refused to call it by those names. Now there was a place where I would expect to find those Yankee fams that disgusted me so much.
Brooklyn is the birthplace of the BMT/BRT..and I was referring to Brooklyn natives...lol..understand.
Maybe when the new 63rd St Connection is open they will run a new letter in Rush Hours thru the 63rd St Line, down the 6th Ave as a local and run it as a local to Kings Hwy/and or Church and Run the F Express, or visa versea, run the F as Local and the new line as Exp.
Then again, maybe they won't. NOTHING...repeat...NOTHING has been decided yet!
David
So what? It's not like he was asking what the plan will be. He was speculating. That's fun. I think we should have a pool, the person who picks the closest 63 Street pick (assuming all MB changes) without going over wins.
I think "V" has been discussed as that letter, though I'd like to see them bring K for Kevin back. K has been used both on the 8th Ave Line and the Canarsie Line, so it's kind of the utility letter of the TA.
www.forgotten-ny.com
"V"'s the orange sign; "K"'s blue, always was, still is EXCEPT for end signs on one of the fleets where it's grey for some unknown reason.
Wayne
Well at least they picked my favorite two colors. My baseball room is completely decked out in Blue and Orange, but I need explaining as to just what the V and K's are all about. I missed the earlier message.
The V signs on the IND/BMT cars has never been used, but is orange colored, meaning it would be put in as a Sixth Ave. line. The K signs are blue, which is where the line ran when it was designated as the Eighth Ave. local back in the 1980s.
That's all right. My dad still refers to the R the RR, the C as the CC, and the L as the LL. Long live the double letters!
You can call it the G or the GG, but unfortunately you can also call it Useless because of the fact that it doesn't go to Manhattan. Except on one occasion, where I was at 34th St/6th Av and a G train (that's right, a G train) pulled into 34th on the local tracks. And it was in passenger service and of course I got on and rode it because something like that is extremely rare and I may never get another chance to ride a G train in Manhattan. There must have been a serious problem in Brooklyn for the G to be rerouted through Manhattan over the F line. In order to put those express tracks to good use, like I think they should, they would need another Manhattan-bound train to run as the local to/from Church Avenue. Only then could the F run as the express. Which would be good because the F takes a thousand years to get from CI to Manhattan the way it is now. Bring on the V train!
Although the GG does not enter Manhattan, IND forefathers planned it exactly that way, the line serves as a vital link in the Greenpoint and Bed Stuy areas of Brooklyn.
There are areas of planned expansion along the route, part. at Bedford/Nostrand, where sings lurk of a planned future connection to and IND ghost line.
Anyway, someone had suggested splitting Fs into local and expresses in Brooklyn from Bergen to Church or Kings Hwy (after Curch in peak direction since we go from 4 tracks to 3) and adding GG service M-F.
This sounds like the best way to go, it will also give GG riders access to 4th Avenue M and R trains.
That scenerio was also tried in the early 70's and it failed.
(Split F tried and failed)
Because the number of trains was too low, and inner F riders fought it. I believe that 2nd Avenue could be used as a terminal, and that it has been so used in the past, though obviously I'd prefer an extended service to Church Ave. and an F express.
I don't think Second Ave has been used as a terminal since 1967, except for the late night shuttles to Queensbridge. The configuration has changed radically since then. If a train had to wait for another train to leave Second Ave. to proceed into the station, then that train would have to sit and wait on the local track, which would block the F as well as the new line.
There are two center tracks for the terminal as well as tail tracks beyond the station. This gives a capacity of at least 30 tph. They would be required to handle only around 15 tph. If a train became disabled, they could always move it to the tail tracks.
The tail tracks have been declared out of service, and the TA isn't going to remove the barrier at the southern end because it would again become a homeless haven. If the 2nd Ave middle tracks were both occupied by trains, and another train had to wait for a train to leave so it could proceed into the station, this train would have to wait on the local F track, causing a nasty bottleneck, with the present track configuration. When 2nd Ave. was used as a terminal pre-1967, waiting trains didn't have to block Brooklyn bound trains.
If the 2nd Ave middle tracks were both occupied by trains, and another train had to wait for a train to leave so it could proceed
into the station, this train would have to wait on the local F track, causing a nasty bottleneck, with the present track configuration.
Short runs will have a maximum rate of 15 tph or one every 4 minutes. In order to have a block that you suggest would imply an inability to turn a train around within 10 minutes. Is this a realistic problem operationally?
When 2nd Ave. was used as a terminal pre-1967, waiting trains didn't have to block Brooklyn bound trains.
There was no turnbacks at 2nd Ave in the period immediately preceding 1967. F trains were turned at Bway-Lafayette, while the Chrystie St connection was being built. Only one track was available for reversals. If the operations were not able to turn trains within four minutes, there would have been a bottleneck at W4th.
These bottlenecks did not occur because four minutes was more than adequate to turn around a train. Are you suggesting that NYCT is 2 1/2 times less capable of turning around trains than they were a generation ago?
BTW, what is today's comfortable figure for the ability for a train to reverse direction within a station?
You're assuming that the TA can keep a schedule exact every single day and that trians won't break down. One little problem and the F line will get backed up.
You're assuming that the TA can keep a schedule...
That's what THEY claim they CAN do.
One little problem and the F line will get backed up.
At which point Bklyn bound trains will switch to the 8th Ave Local tracks at W4th, switch to the 8th Av Exp tracks at Canal and switch back to the F at Jay St. This was done all the time prior to 1967, when there was a jam on the Houston St line.
Short runs can terminate at Hudson Terminal in an emergency. If the tail tracks are restored, then this will not become necessary for 20 minutes. If the problem starts on average midway through the rush hour, then only one train need be diverted.
This really is a non-problem.
If so, why did the MTA not use Second Ave to terminate the E train during the crossover repairs last month?
I never could understand whey the "F" terminated at Church Avenue. It seemed like an odd place for a terminal. Besides, didn't the Culver shuttle go by Church Ave. on its way to Manhattan. Couldn't the F have gone a few more stops towards Coney Island, but not to CI in order not to clutter up the lines there. Two trains running on the F and Culver Line don't seem such a bad idea---or am I missing something here?
The old Culver line turned west just North of Ditmas, and went to 4th Ave and connected there The IND went as far South as Church Ave and was terminated there until they extended it in 1954, and then ran the D on it.
You have given me somemm of the missing puzzle but there is still one part of the Culver I don't understand. Where did the Culver terminate? Did it go underground to Church Avenue along the same route as the "F", or did it go elsewhere? That part of the old Culver has always confused me. It is one line in Brooklyn that I never had to ride.
The old Culver shuttle terminated at Ditmas. The southbound platform was converted to an island and an additional track was built for the shuttle trains.
Fred, I will repeat my self one more time and even e mail you. The Old Culver line started at Coney Island, used the lower level at West 8th St, Ran North on McDonald Ave, at Ditmas turned left about 36th St, ran to the 4th Ave Tunnel(Met with the West End at 9th Ave Station) merged with the Sea Beach and 4th Ave Locals, followed their routes thru DeKalb, followed the route of the Tunnel lines, to Nassau St, Ran North on Nassau to Chambers. During Rush Hours, they ran 2-3 Expresses in each direction using the Southern Portion of the Manny Bridge and used the old Nassau Loop. and returned to CI via Local. In the PM it reversed itself. A copy of this will go to your e mail
You can stil see the old ROW in spots. They've built new housing in some of it.
The Culver shuttle terminated at Ditmas Ave, 1 stiop south of Church Ave. Church Ave was designed to be a junction with the never built Fort Hamilton Pkwy line to Bay Ridge and possibly to Staten Island, with the Culver line as.
Chris: I should have read your piece before I sent my message to my good buddy Brighton #1Express Bob: I asked where the Culver Shuttle terminated and you told me two things. One, it terminated at Ditmas Avenue, and two, it is one stop south of Church Avenue. Now is seems very logical that there should have been a connection between Church and Ditmas. I often wondered why the IND did not expand past Church and now I know it was because the BMT was already there.
I think we need to identify what problems need to be corrected on this line.
First, there is an overcrowding situation, which exists only between Jay Street and Carroll Street (a whole 2 stops). The "G" trains hasn't alleviated this situation (to date), and extending the line to Church Avenue probably wouldn't fix this either.
Second, there is the delay caused by terminating the trains at Smith-9th Streets. These delays are frequent, and have been known to be extensive when things aren't operating according to schedule. (The turn-around is actually located at the 4th Avenue station, using the center/express tracks). A possible (albeit expensive) way to correct this would be to change the single cross-over (between the express tracks) to a double/diamond cross-over, thereby allowing both tracks to be used for turn-around operations. If you look at the tracks here, you can see that there are cut-outs in the concrete that would allow this to happen. (And I wouldn't be surprised if the wiring to the tower is in place for this ... does anyone know if this is so, or if there was a diamond at this site when the line was first opened?)
As for extending the line to Church Avenue, this would lengthen the train's route timing by approximately 9 minutes, thereby requiring an additional 2-3 trainsets (and crews) for the "G" service. (A possible cost offset MIGHT be the ability to close the tower at 4th Avenue, since the Church Avenue tower is always staffed anyway!) This is probably not desirable to the MTA management.
Another alternative to this whole mess could be making the transfer between the "M"/"N"/"R" and "F" lines at 4th Avenue a bit more palatable. This is a very LONG walk up (especially at the end of a working day) ... about the equivalent of 7 stories. Escalators here could help (although this might require some form of active supervision, such as re-opening the token booth and concourse on the Manhattan-bound side of 4th Avenue and relocating the active entrance to the 4th Avenue subway to this location).
Just some thoughts .....
The reason why the "G" has not corrected the influx of passengers betwen Jay and Carroll is due to the fact that the GG terminates at Smith\9, one stop over!
The Smith 9th is NOT a proper terminal....Church Avenue was designed to be a proper terminal, with lower level trackage in place since 1933.
The GG will have to have 2 more train-sets, but since this line is OPTO anyway on weekends and after hours, I don't see a major impact on budgets. This will provide a vital connection with the BMT at 4th Avenue, and it will allow the experimentation of a split express service.
I am only proposing this as a weekday service. However, improved access between the IND and BMT at 4th Avenue is of course a good idea.
28th Street on the Lexington Ave line is one of the original IRT stations, but since I've been using this station a lot lately in my freelancing, I noticed that the front end seems to sport IND-type mosaics. Is this from a 1930s platform lengthening?
www.forgotten-ny.com
That is exactly what it is from. Although I am not sure of the year may be more like 1940.
Peace,
Andee
Walking in Richmond Hill today I noticed that the concrete overpass over Hillside Avenue that supports the former Richmond Hill station still boasts the old LIRR 'keystone' symbol, cut in the concrete.
Are there any other extant remnants of this symbol?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Not that I know of, but don't forget to check out the LIRR manhole covers around that old powerhouse near the LIC stop.
Ok, anyone who doesn't know the keystone connection to the LIRR, please fess up now - we promise we won't giggle too much ;)
Oh yes, and those cool LIRR electrical substation buildings still around. There's also turntables (3), and I think coaling towers. And interlocking towers. And position light signals. Any railfan who dismisses the LIRR because it's electric (and therefore, somehow not a "real" railroad) misses out on quite an operation!
Ok - real question - did any of the MP-54's ever have LIRR keystone logos applied to them, Much like that other "keystone" RR had their logo stuck to their MP-54s?
And, anyone know when the DD-1s were finally pulled from service?
The DD-1s were retired in 1952.
Considering my handle, I can't resist weighing in on this thread.
That "Keystone" railroad (and its subsidiaries) was one of the most "electric" of all, and still is under different management. Was the Main Line, the "Broad Way Of Commerce," not a "real" railroad?!!
I remember (very vaguely -- I was a kid) electrics hauling freight trains as well as passenger trains on the line, and across the Susquehanna R. to Enola Yard even in the Conrail era. Not a "real" railroad? Ha!
I don't ever recall seeing the "keystone" logo applied to any of the P/MP54 rolling stock on the LIRR. I think the first logos those cars ever got were "Dashing Dan" in the mid-1950's; before that it was just "Long Island" on the letterboard, and car numbers down below (as well as on the forward-most windows on the left side of control cars).
The DD-1's ran until 1952.
IIRC, there are keystones on the headquarters building at Jamaica.
And sorry to be a tease. but when I was taking my kids for a double-decker ride Babylon-Patchogue, I saw one of the way stations had been spiffed up with a fresh LIRR keystone painted on it. I just don't recall which one. By process of elimination, I'll guess Islip or Sayville.
The tower on the Islip Station building:
Is it still on?
Since nobody wants to organize it....I will! April 29th is the date. Details later tonight. Mail me for more info.
-Mark
During my morning travels at Canal St , while on the Uptown "A" , an uptown "E" pulls in on the local tracks with a regular four car set in the first half and cars 6256,6258,6240 and 6242. I guess these babies were pressed into service to releive the R-32's.
6256, 6258, 6240 and 6242 come from the G line.
G line trains are six 75-footers long.
E line trains are eight 75-footers long.
Maybe the R-32s are on the G line.
Yes , you are right. Just relaying what my little eye did spy this A.M. Perhaps the Grand Poobah of dispatchers could explain this lapse in assignment. Service was needed, service was provided. Only we single,white,male , no other interests in life, weirdoes would catch this setup.
avid
G service requires 12 trains. Since there are 14 A-A or A-B units, there are 4 spares. Occassionally one is out of service for repair or for inspection. Sometimes they just are not required. If there was a car shortage on the E-line they could be used as you have illustrated. This is by no means a rare occurrence.....
G service requires 12 trains. Since there are 14 A-A or A-B units, there are 2 spare units. Occassionally one is out of service for repair or for inspection. Sometimes they just are not required. If there was a car shortage on the E-line they could be used as you have illustrated. This is by no means a rare occurrence.....
My guess too. Most likly put in service over night while others were serviced, cleaned ... Giving R-32's a breather.
avid
A BusTalk friend has me on the distribution of a electronic newsletter that had an interesting item about goings on in Albany. Thanks Steve.
Apparently for the first time in many years our non-transit friendly governor has proposed a budget that doesn't maintain parity between State DOT and MTA budget amounts.
It proposes $16.5B for the MTA and only $14.3B for State DOT. This isn't purely mass transit vs. highways as the MTA includes bridges and tunnels while the state DOT includes buses, incl. some funding to you favorite "private" firms here in NYC.
P.S. As most of you know the MTA budget includes funding for the 2nd Ave sTubway and 63rd Street tunnel/Grand Central projects.
Mr t__:^)
Dropped off my daughter & grandson at Nassau Coliseum and went by the yard in Garden City to view the Circus trains all lined up there.
Tonight the animals will be walking thru the Midtown Tunnel from their quarters in the Sunnyside yard.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, watch out where you step -- should be tons of elephant dung over there!
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
I might have expected that ;-)
BTW, do you need any more for that location we all know about on the Franklin Shuttle ? The patties at Garden City should be rerady for pick up.
Mr t__|B-)
HaHaHa!
No, the Brooklyn Museum exhibit, "Sensation," left town in January.
;-)
LI can keep there share and dump it on Tom Gullota's front lawn.
Doug aka BMTman
Thurston, watch out where you step -- should be tons of elephant dung over there!
And as we all know, some people call it art!
--Mark
Someone drop off someone at the Nassau Coliseum??
Nothing like supporting the WWF. :)!!!!
If only I knew what time they were leaving. The crossing at Stewart Rd (by the old station turned firehouse) must be quite a sight. One train per year (except an occasional work train) at that crossing and its the Ringling Bros Barnum & Bailey Train!!!!!
I would have loved to get some pictures as the circus train passed the old Clinton Road station. Maybe next year.
Should the planned?!?!? narrows tunnel be built from the 4th Avenue BMT Line In Bay Ridge to Staten Island Or From South Ferry Manhattan On the IRT West Side Line to St George, Staten Island?
I Say Both Should Be Built With The IRT Traveling west from St George on The SIRT North Shore Line to Arlington/Port Ivory and The BMT From St George Southwest to Tottenville.
That doesn't make much since .... as SIRT has IND/BMT type R-44 cars which we know are wider then IRT R-68 and soon to be introduced R-142.
That said it DOES make since to connect SI to the reast of NYC via some kind of tunnel. Maybe dig the tunnel wide enough for the R-44s even if it makes since to connect SI to the IRT system.
Mr t__:^)
TYPO ALERT! R-68's are B-div cars, just like the 44's and 46's. I think Thurston means R-62 cars.
[TYPO ALERT! R-68's are B-div cars, just like the 44's and 46's. I think Thurston means R-62 cars.]
Oh dear me, how ever could I confuse a Hippo (R-68) with the R-62 & R-62A ... I'll bet Steve and a few other lovers of those beasts are having a good chuckle at my expense. Thanks to my colleague for correcting me !
Mr t__:^)
As a secondary option for a narrows tunnel, tunnel south from 2nd Avenue line to St George, Staten Island
There aren't any plans for a tunnel to Staten Island, and haven't been any for many years. Staten Island is growing quite well without rail transit access to the rest of the city, and I suspect that most residents are perfectly happy with that state of affairs.
Peter:
The Plans for a narrows tunnel have been revisited on and off over the years by both the city and the residents of SI. The MTA has not thought about linking the SIRT to either the BMT or IRT systems.
It Does'nt Hurt To Dream.
In the interest of NATIONAL DEFENSE a contract calling for the facilities at Croton CT (where they used to build submarines) to build dual level tubes for the Bayridge S.I. tunnel . This would provide a link to the rest of the city for S.I. and keep the Sub facility current and it work force busy. Of course the Defense Dept. would carry some of the cost burden.But then the line must extend to Newark Airport to lend Interstate validity to the project.Then extend the Bayridge line to Freshpond junction and then to JFK . Now your linking two International air terminals!
Now thats a dream!
avid
[In the interest of NATIONAL DEFENSE a contract calling for the facilities at Groton CT (where they used to build submarines) to build dual level tubes for the Bayridge S.I. tunnel. This would provide a link to the rest of the city for S.I. and keep the Sub facility current and it work force busy.]
That was tried several years ago. Electric Boat (the submarine company) built tunnel segments for a water supply project, mostly to see if it could handle nondefense work. This grand experiment was a total flop. Electric Boat couldn't get the work done on time and lost millions on the project.
Was it tooling, Self esteme, atitude, talent or all of the above?
avid
[Was it tooling, Self esteme, atitude, talent or all of the above?]
All of the above, AFAIK.
SIRTA could only be linked with BMT/IND as the line's dimensions are the same as B Division equipment.
Doug aka BMTman
The ferry is good enough for me. Spending billions of dollars for a tunnel just for railfans would take away the best ride (valuewise) in NYC!!!!
We could keep the ferry. They are in need of new or overhauled boats. I went on a Transit Museum tour of their faciliities and they said the Kennedy Class boats are nearing the end of their life span. I'm sure Hank can elaborate, but wasn't there a boat shoratge sometime last year. The bridge could also be closed due to falling ice( upper level) and a car wreck on the lower level.
Staten Island should be connected to the rest of NYC. I vote for Brooklyn and Manhattan.
Even if IRT cars are used- the tunnel should be wide enough to handle B division cars of 75 foot length. Yes- I knwo IRT cars ar 51 feet!
The only way such a tunnel will work would be if went directly to Manhattan. It's a 40 minute trip from Tottenville as it is, and to make the trip through Brooklyn as well would be LONGER than the x-bus.
-Hank
The only possible way you'd get a tunnel to Staten Island would be as part of a bi-level project connecting Staten Island with Brooklyn in conjuction with the proposed deepwater port at Bush Terminal for the new generation of super cargo ships that cannot dock at most East Coast ports.
Some NYC pols have a plan to build the port and beat out the Norfolk Va.-Tidewater area for the lucrative shipping business. If that happened, creating a through rail connection from New Jersey to Staten Island to Brooklyn, and then via the NYA&B and the Hell's Gate Bridge into New England would make some financial sense. A Narrows tunnel similar to the 63rd St. connection, with subway lines on top connecting with the R at 95th St. and freight tracks on the lower level could then be justified (and given the right connections in New Jersey, you might even create some type of Amtrak service between Washington and Boston which bypassed Newark and Penn Station and made stops in Staten Island, Brooklyn and Queens instead)
Admittedly, it's not likely to happen. But its more likely than a 5 1/2 mile subway-only tunnel from Whitehall Street to St. George, which would be two miles longer than the current longest underwater subway line, BART between San Francisco and Oakland.
03/16/2000
This of course has been discussed here before with the exception of dual IRT/BMT service. The dual service makes no sense to me, being S.I.R. is of BMT/IND dimensions. It would make sense to build the tunnel directly to Manhattan with link up to Whitehall St. as discussed. But I don't see that happening with the current 2nd Ave. subway controversy still hot. Besides, I don't think the NIMBY's in Staten Island would want subway service to Manhattan that would somehow upset the current balance of things. I am only speaking of the NIMBY's and not the people who want a one seat ride to Manhattan via Broadway bypassing the ferry route.
Bill Newkirk
It was also suggested that the H&M (now the PATH) build a connection via New Jersey. That would involve a much shorter underwater tunnel, and may not be such a bad idea.
The trains would serve both Downtown Manhattan (WTC) and Midtown (33rd), and the fare would be cheaper too (hopefully)
It would be a lot easier to extend the HBLR over the Bayonne Bridge to SI and along the North Shore route to St. George.
What will be the desposition of the current MOW cars I.E. R-12 R-15's with the advent of the R-142's . Will they be bumped into oblivion by r-33/r-36's? Isn't there a museum out there somewhere that needs a representitve of a recycled car, a money car, a snow car ? I'd take them myself but alas no room.
avid
Looks like the SUV driving majority is out to stick it to us again. New York State politicians want to eliminate the tax on gasoline. As a result (when the boom no longer allows all kinds of money to be temporarily given away) the state will probably:
1) Stop maintaining roads -- NOT.
2) Cut non-transportation spending -- NOT.
3) Eliminate NYCT capital spending -- perhaps.
Transportation is THE LOWEST priority in New York. The only reason transportation spending does not drop to zero is because there are some dedicated funding sources. This is really assinine. They are playing a game of "who cares less about the future" up there in Albany, as usual.
I'm getting tired of all this "gas cost relief" stuff:
#1 the cost of gas in the US is amazingly low compaired to the rest of the world (my friend from Bermmuda is used to $4+ a gallon)
#2 It's supply and demand. OPEC reduced supply, and thanks to the SUV fad, demand is soaring.
#3 The gas companies haven't decided to suddenly stick it to everyone, and if they did, who cares? Nobody forces you to buy a car that gets 12mpg.
I'd leave gas taxes right where they are and tell people to use mass transit, and to stop being so wasteful if they don't like paying for gas.
I worked out the cost between what driving an SUV from my home in NY to Hartford would cost, Vs what my bike costs, vs what a decent car would cost. The difference is amazing.
Distance: about 120 miles
Typical SUV: 12mpg - 10 gallons
Decent car: 30mpg - 4 gallons
My Harley: 40mpg* - 3 gallons
*I actually average somewhat more than this. In fact, I have to work hard to get below 40mpg...
@$1.50 a gallon:
SUV - $15.00
Car - $6.00
Bike - $4.50
@$2.00 a gallon:
SUV - $20.00
Car - $8.00
Bike - $6.00
@$1.00 a gallon:
SUV - $10.00
Car - $4.00
Bike - $3.00
In any case, It's quite obvious that if you drive an energy efficient vehicle - you're not getting hit hard by gas costs.
The moral is, if you don't like paying for gas, dump the Navigator and buy a car. Besides, I'm at a loss to understand why anyone needs a truck to ferry their kids 3 blocks to school.
Damn straight. If everyone with an SUV bought a Saturn instead, even one of the new bigger ones, their gas cost per mile would fall by half right off the bat.
No one talked about RAISING the gas tax two years ago when oil was at an inflation-adjusted historical low. When the market is against rail freight and mass transit, everyone is pro-market. When the market goes the other way, suddenly things change. Let's cut the hypocracy.
I had some sympathy for those who heat with oil, but not for long distance drivers of big vehicles. Why is it only the poor who should be made to suffer for the consequences of their decisions?
Your figures, I assume, came from personal experience rather than statistical data, but they aren't far off the mark. The 1999 average mpg (EPA combined number) is 12 mpg for the SUV/light truck segment and 23 mpg for passenger cars (everything from your tiniest Kia to your big Cadillac, including those minivans classified by the government as passenger cars). These averages are weighted based on vehicle production numbers so if big cars rise as a percentage of passenger car sales then the number will go down and vice-versa. About 47.5% of 1999 model year vehicles were in the SUV/light truck segment, as opposed to 49% passenger cars and 3.5% in all other categories combined. If current trends hold, the model year 2000 will see the SUV/light truck segment surpass passenger cars by at least three percentage points.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
a couple of weeks ago i saw the book Grand Central Gateway to a Million Lives by John Belle and Maxine Leighton--- it is a glossy book, which initially seemed to a touristy book of pretty pictures and warm memories for people who visited new york--- after the recent thread about how many levels are in there in grand central?, i went to the transit museum bookstore and looked at it again--- it had some information about the lower levels, so i bought it--- it lists for $39.95, but i got 10% off because i am a museum member--- i started reading parts of it yesterday and today, and i have just realized that it is a far deeper book that i thought--- john belle is founding partner of beyer blinder belle and the principal architect of the grand central restoration for the last ten years----maxinne leighton is an associate partner with the firm and their staff architectural writer
the book goes into the history of the grand central and the changes in the structure of the building over the years--- it details the research involved in making the plans for the restoration, as well as the process involved in getting the plans approved--- the book discusses the addition of the
east staircase, which had been part of the original plans but never built--- also discussed is the restoration of the ramp leading to the oyster bar---
the book is loaded with pictures of the things that were discovered hidden behind walls that had been put up over the years--- it is written from the experience of the architects who were very sensitive to retaining the historical sense of the building--
beyer blinder belle also did the restoration of ellis island
far from being a slick coffee table book, this is a very soulful report of the restoration of the station
there is a picture of the rotary converters which are said to be 8 stories below the main concourse--
there is also a picture of a stairway leading down to the lowest levels with the walls of untouched bedrock
if i can reschedule an appointment tomorrow i hope to go on the wednesday 12:30 tour of the grand central which is given every wednesday by the municipal arts society--- although they don't go into the depths of the station, it is an interesting tour of the building--- they meet by the information booth on the main level.......
This is a welcome to new arrivals to this site from your un-official Welcome Wagon, sorry no cake or cookies.
If you have found us due to "Heypaul's" article in DailyNews you'll find him here most every day. He's a big kidder, but knows a lot about the subject, so read between the lines of his jokes and you're bound to learn a thing or two.
Before getting into the thick of things with us may I suggest that you check out other parts of this site FIRST, e.g. at FAQ you can have a lot of those dumb questions answered, and won't have to make a fool of yourself by asking "what's the "R" number mean", or "how many abandoned stations are there underground". At "Field Trips" you'll find places many of us have gone on both official and un-official trips, including upcomming events, e.g. NY Div of ERA meeting; trip to Philly, opening day at NJ's new LRV line; trolley & RT shows; museum events; etc. If buses are your thing, BusTalk is a click away. Paul has even started UsTalk for off-topic conversations, e.g. where's the best pizza place in town.
You'll find us a pritty friendly group who'll answer most any question that you have. Our host, Dave, has recently installed a password system that prevents the rock & mudd throwers from spoiling for the rest of us. So do some poking around the site, then join in as you'll find it very educational as well as enjoyable time spent.
Mr (small) t __:^)
i would also like to extend a welcome to new people.
i have to correct a couple of things thurston said. the article in the news was about people interested in transit, and i was just lucky to have the motorman's cab, and a bedroom that looks like a prison cell... i am a great kidder, but if it is information about trains or buses you want, there are many people here working in the subways and buses as well as serious scholars of various parts of both systems ( thurston works in the industry )
i just started a little club called ustalk at yahoo, but not to discuss pizzerias, politics, urban planning, welfare, etc... i'd like to emphasize NOT these things... my intent is to have a quiet place
to maybe talk about what's going on in our lives or in our heads relative to our being people and railfans...
there is another site called offsubtalk which is more geared to politics and general issues
whereever you go i hope you have fun...
I too wish to welcome new subtalkers. You'll find this site to be the leading source of info on subway and bus info not just in NYC burt world-wide.
Please feel free to contribute.
Has anybody new joined us after reading the article?
1. Was there ever regular revenue service on the West End center track between Bay Parkway and 9th Av.?
2. Likewise, the Sea Beach center tracks, except for the NX in 1967-8, and was this linked to the Brighton-Franklin Special Exp.?
3. I rode in 1968, for the first and only time, on a BMT standard (2700 series). It was on the Canarsie-14th St. Line. Quite quaint (worthy of the BMT) when compared to the R1/9s (worthy of the "City of New York") which I think are best described as cattle cars. But is there any reason why the Standards were maintained, even though the Triplexes were younger and no longer needed on the Southern Division after 1965?
300+ standards were rebuilt in 1959, and only those saw service past 1960. The Triplex, OTOH, rarely saw any kind of maintenance. Still, the D types were still in good running order in 1965. They should've been kept a few years longer, due to the car emergency of 1966, when tooo many R1-9 IND cars were broken down.
Just got my "Subway Cars Of The BMT" book in the mail from Amazon.com today!
By NYC standards the D-Types were a small group of cars and prezsented the usual parts headaches that a small, aging group of cars present. The articulated design was also a factor.
It has always bothered me that transit gets such perfunctory mention on radio reports that purport to be covering "traffic and transit."
I mean, you will hear a traffic report which goes into some detail, saying something like, "A half-hour delay on the in-bound George Washington Bridge; LIE heavy due to a car fire, use the Grand Central; big backup at the Bruckner Interchange..." and on and on.
And then, "Transit on or close to schedule." (An exception, of course, is in the case of a major emergency, like a water main break.)
This is information? No, this is ridiculous. Transit ought to get a little more detail than that. Even if you concede that more people will care about the roads than about the trains, there is still a SIZABLE audience which could use some rudimentary info about transit in the morning. The level of detail should at least approach the level which accompanies the road info.
For example, I ought to be able to hear a transit report which goes something like: "1 and 9 trains on the West Side delayed for police investigation, take the B or C; all 7 trains running local from Flushing, the LIRR may be a better bet; A trains running on the F line from Jay Street to West 4th..." etc.
This would be very useful to me, and to many other transit riders.
Why does radio treat transit with virtually total neglect?
Ferdinand Cesarano
P.S. - posted both here and on the New York Radio Message Board at http://musicradio.computer.net/wwwboard/
[Why does radio treat transit with virtually total neglect?]
Many drivers listen to traffic reports on their car radios and can make route changes as necessary. That wouldn't apply with transit.
Both drivers and train riders will listen as they are showering and dressing in the morning. That is when the reports will come in handy.
As far as making changes "as necessary", this would apply to transit riders, only a little earlier in the process.
Drivers listen for info before they decide which parkway to take. The moment when they have to make the decision may come early in the car ride.
Transit riders could listen before deciding which train to take, but their moment of decision would come before they left their homes.
It really is the same principle.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Peter, I'm surprised that my fellow Long Islander would say that. Even for my 11 years on the LIRR I listened to "Traffic & Weather Togather". For me on the Babylon Branch I could "change at Jamaica" due to a problem on the LIRR getting into Penn Sta. or problems on 7th Ave IRT or 8th Ave IND and catch the Lex. Ave at Atlantic Ave.
From the West side at 116th Street I walked to the IND at 110th (wasn't brave enough to walk thru Moringside Park after dark).
Now as a driver, I've seen a lot of local streets in Queens in my 5 years here, thanks, in part, to our favorite Meteorologist ... Thanks Todd.
Mr t__:^)
Heliocopters do not go underground.
they evesdrop on each others reports and repeat the same
most cars hav radios for those listening fot traffic,alot of traffic reports are usually time delayed i.e some jams clear and they are still reporting them (evesdropping)
Radios are sort of restricked on transit or just blocked out.
when radio stations get reports from transit users they must verify first (with responsible spokes person , who must verify existing problem)
Its not easy
The only source of transit delay information is the TA. And the TA only reports big problems. I guess they figure that a 20 minute delay and packed cars are not enough to convince transit riders to take a different route. Besides, it probably would take the TA 20 minutes to report a problem, by which time it could be fixed.
Radio waves can't go underground.
They're blocked by one thing: the ground!
Some places you can get a fairly decent reception in places that aren't far underground (i.e. directly under the street). Others places are close to the transmitter (i.e. 34 St/6 Av close to Empire State Bldg.). Some places are just beyond the portal leading outside (Hunter's Pt. Ave, Queens). Sometimes there are enough open spaces to allow some radio waves to get into the tunnels.
Elevated trains & stations get full saturation of radio waves simply because they're above ground.
It's OK to listen to the radio, as long as you have headphones!
Because, more often than not, the trains usually ARE on time.
There are far fewer transit incidents than there are traffic incidents.
Usually, if there's something up, I hear about it before I leave.
--Mark
I'll try to answer your question from an insider's perspective. As many of our SubTalk regulars know, I work part-time for one of the all-news radio stations in NYC, WCBS. The other is WINS. Both use the services of a contractor, Shadow Traffic, for traffic/transit reports. Shadow is located in New Jersey. When the news anchor introduces the report, he/she pushes a button on the control board, and it opens a line to allow the Shadow reporter on-the-air. At our station, we also have a helicopter, manned by Tom Kaminski. The copter too is part of the Shadow operation.
For transit information to get on-the-air, first the Shadow reporter (whether in the copter or in the studio) must know about it. For this, they rely on the TA to pass along the information (and occasionally listers). But the limiting factor is that the reporters have one minute maximum, and sometimes less, to give EVERYTHING, including the traffic report over a large three-state metropolitan area.
Having been with this station for 20+ years, I can tell you that it's impossible to please everyone. We get listeners who say "you never tell about the Belt Parkway" or "why was I on the GW bridge and stopped and you said it was OK." The truth is, the flow of real-time, accurate information is pretty poor. Our helicopter does the best job of seeing what's going on, but even then, it can only be in one place at one time (and never underground :0)
My hunch is that as the borders between broadcasting (radio/TV/cable), the Internet, and your telephone continue to blur, things will improve. Especially as "smart systems" such as the Intelligent Transporation System (a Federal initiative) produce real-time data that can be transmitted to homes, to cars, and even to individuals via wireless devices.
But for now, if you want the whole picture, you'll have to piece it together by yourself by keeping an eye on the MTA Web site for GO's (service notices), and an ear to the radio in the hopes that they capture some information that is useful to you.
Personally, I'd love more/better transit information on the radio. But I can tell you that under the present scheme, it's going to be tough to get enough time -- dispacing traffic information for drivers will anger a lot more people than adding transit information for riders except in unusual and emergency situations.
And that's Transit and Weather Together
Will the shakeup in WCBS Weather, as reported in todays Post, affect you? I hope not!
I don't want to turn this into "WeatherTalk," but here's the quick explanation. I won't be doing my one-weekend-per-month anymore, but I will be the prime back-up for Craig if he takes off a morning or afternoon shift, or for a weekday holiday such as Memorial Day. The Weather Channel Radio Division (not the TV folks) are now handling midday, evening, overnight, and weekends.
So to answer your question, YES, Transit and Weather Together will continue on WCBS. [On topic: Next time I have a chance, I'll repeat my mantra, "Great day to ride a Slant-40 over the Manny-B looking out the STORMFAN WINDOW!"]
Todd, if there every aren't enough traffic problems to fill the minute, why don't you suggest the following:
"Due to the deterioration of the Manhattan Bridge, half its tracks are out of service, and have been for 18 years. Brooklyn subway riders on the B, D, N, M, Q and R trains can expect five to ten minute delays in each direction, and D and Q riders can expect crowded conditions as well."
One post said the trains have fewer problems. Perhaps a better way to put is that in many cases the trains are always a problem, so it is no longer news.
Todd and others might be entertained to know that in the late 60's when the M-1's were expected but not yet in service the radio traffic reports each morning and afternoon named trains cancellled due to equipment shortage. In a more recent chronic case, in San Francisco, the MUNI Metro system nearly collapsed in August 1998. For the first several weeks after the "meltdown" transit was front page news and Metro service was mentioned on the local traffic reports(also packaged outsiders who service all the local stations--sometimes the same voices but with different aliases for each station). Sadly this degenerated to a "Muni reports no significant delays" mantra even on days whern the operative fleet was 20% short thus at least 20%of runs missed. On the brighter side there is a website which displays trolleys in the tunnel in real time. Further although not yet publicly available as is the former, a firm called Nextbus is using GPS to track the LRV's on the streets for MUNI. When this becomes publicly
I think that it is also partially because it is much more difficult to tell when there are transit delays. For example, it is much more difficult for a helicopter to know if the 7 train is delayed from above -- they all look the same.
The TA's "transit information hotline" is only updated hourly, and doesn't concern itself with anything but the most severe service impacts.
I remember that, growing up, some of the stations would have very specific LIRR information -- the 7:02 from Babylon is operating 15 minutes late. It should be noted, though, that often this info would be first broadcast when the train was almost to it's destination -- even considering the delay.
Question for the long-time Long Islanders... wasn't there a train which became the laughingstock of some of the radio stations because it was late or cancelled more than 50% of the time? This is back in the mid-70's if I recall correctly.
Chuck
That was the 7:55 Babylon to Brooklyn.
Right you are Bob! Made famous by John Gambling (dad of current
one on WOR). Actually, it had to be earlier than 1973, since I
was in high school when it this was happening.
I believe it was in the mid 60's as i was riding the LIRR at that time from Babylon,to NYC.....even survived the stikes the LIRR pulled.
[I believe it was in the mid 60's]
I think it was just before the first batch of M-1's were delivered, about 1970??
In DC now, we get such info RUSH HOURS ONLY (how helpful). This is on WTOP every 10 minutes on the 8s (sounds like 880 in NYC, doesn't it). Lisa Baden, AM traffic, will get a chime like on the Metro and then will say something like "Metro, MARC, and VRE are all on time", or (this is VERY frequently heard) "Metro and VRE on time, MARC Camden Line 843 is n minutes late". Once I heard "So many delays on Metro I'm not going to bother going into details". Lisa is one of the highlights of my and many Washingtonian's mornings. Listen live on wtopnews.com (RUSH HOURS ONLY ON THE 8S!!!)
Just got my "Cars of the BMT" book from Amazon.com in the mail today. A great collection of pictures, even though they never mentioned the gate cars or C/Q types anywhere.
But what fascinated me the most was the 3 experimental el cars (Bluebird/Green Hornet and Zehyr). All were modern (for their time) cars which could've been used well past their eventual retirement dates. Why did the city not utilize these metal cars on the older els (3rd Ave/Bx and Myrtle) all the way until their eventual demise, instead of using rickety older cars like the Q types on Myrtle, or heavy, structurally damaging subway cars like the Low-V and R12 units on 3rd Ave.?
All three experimentals were built to BMT subway platform widths and were incompatible with operation on the elevated width platforms of the lower Myrtle and 3rd Ave el.
I assume you have the J.C. Greller Book "Subway Cars of the BMT" which doesn't include any elevated equipment, including the Cs and Qs.
Yes I do. I thought all of the el cars (including the 3 experimental ones mentioned) were built for IRT (9' wide) specs. A little work shaving the platforms on those lines would make them compatible, had the city given a damn about saving those 2 lines.
The Green Hornet did not survive WWII -- IIRC it was waiting for a replacement part when the War Department had it scrapped for its aluminum content.
The Bluebirds and Zephyr fell victim to deferred maintenance. And because they were unique, spare parts were probably very hard to get. Things might have been different if the full 50 unit order for Bluebirds had been completed.
Yes, in the book there is a picture of men ripping the Green Hornet apart for it's scrap aluminum.
Boy, did this car look good. If only the city hadnt taken the BMT over when it did, it could have demonstrated that even the oldest elevated structures could be kept running with these newer cars.
If only the city hadnt taken the BMT over when it did, it could have demonstrated that even the oldest elevated structures could be kept running with these newer cars.
That's why they HAD to be taken over.
If you want to read about the El Cars, get the Book Brooklyn Elevateds
HAD to? Why would you say that?
I think he means because LaGuardia hated the elevated lines, the city had to take over the BMT (and IRT) in order to rip them down, though the BMT ripping really didn't get into full throttle until Fiorello was dead and buried. (Fulton being the exception, but like Sixth Ave., it was already duplicated by the new IND lines)
I don't do much posting here, but do alot of reading. I have some limited knowledge of the the subways, railroads, etc. but always want to know more. To me the most interesting posts are ones which describe the operation of the equipment, proceedures, lost and/or forgotten 'stuff' and so on. I don't understand why some of the very knowledgeable regular posters get bent out of shape when someone asks a question which has been answered before. I don't mean some of the sillier questions asked 40 times a day. Not everyone reads every post ever made, so some may not have seen the answer. They may not have known about SubTalk until recently. Whatever! If you don't want to answer a post, don't. I just find it disappointing when I see a question asked which I didn't happen to see the answer to, and then someone who knows the answer says "Too bad, it was answered 3 weeks ago, look it up". This information, even when repeated, is great and I would guess many readers agree. More interesting then some of the more political slants or personal arguments that seem to take up alot of space here.
So, please try to have patience with some of the duplicate questions when they are on topic and may be of interest to many who 'missed it the first time'. If it really irks you, then just ignore the question.
Thanks - Rich "Fastest Ride thru the 1967 Subway" Dorfman
Let me add to that...
Our host keeps only 5,000 messages available at any given time, in order to maintain some semblance of sanity - with a group like us, that can't be easy!! In SubTalk time, 5,000 messages can't be more than 2-3 weeks. It's likely that an answer from 3 weeks ago has gone to cyber-heaven.
Besides, if a particular item was worth discussing, it just might be worth discussing again for somebody who missed it the first time.
03/16/2000
Also don't forget that some posters here who ask questions that were discussed here before are probably new to this site.
Bill Newkirk
also don't forget that some of us aging baby boomers don't remember the questions we asked last week and certainly don't remember other people's answers to the questions that we don't remember asking--- however i am able to remember word for word every one of the 5000 asinine posts that i have put up here during the course of my recent 6 month institutionalization... some of them still have me laughing despite all the heavy tranquilizers that they grind up in my gruel...
Can you spare any of those tranquilizers?
Peace,
Andee
Back in my day (I CAN'T believe I just said that!), newbies would come and lurk for a while, and read any available FAQs and then they would begin posting.
I remember when reading a FAQ on a BBS was a REQUIREMENT to post messages. Alas, those days are forever gone. The local BBS is dead.
-Hank
Let me add to that...
Our host keeps only 5,000 messages available at any given time, in order to maintain some semblance of sanity - with a group like us, that can't be easy!! In SubTalk time, 5,000 messages can't be more than 2-3 weeks. It's likely that an answer from 3 weeks ago has gone to cyber-heaven.
Besides, if a particular item was worth discussing, it just might be worth discussing again for somebody who missed it the first time.
03/16/2000
Also don't forget that some posters here who ask questions that were discussed here before are probably new to this site.
Bill Newkirk
also don't forget that some of us aging baby boomers don't remember the questions we asked last week and certainly don't remember other people's answers to the questions that we don't remember asking--- however i am able to remember word for word every one of the 5000 asinine posts that i have put up here during the course of my recent 6 month institutionalization... some of them still have me laughing despite all the heavy tranquilizers that they grind up in my gruel...
Can you spare any of those tranquilizers?
Peace,
Andee
Back in my day (I CAN'T believe I just said that!), newbies would come and lurk for a while, and read any available FAQs and then they would begin posting.
I remember when reading a FAQ on a BBS was a REQUIREMENT to post messages. Alas, those days are forever gone. The local BBS is dead.
-Hank
>>>"Fastest Ride thru the 1967 Subway"<<<
Please explain this reference
Peace,
Andee
Every time I see one of those HotJobs.Com ads with the catty comments and distorted pointing hand, I wonder why no one else pictured in the ad seems to have heard of it.
I'm perfectly satisfied with basic cable and would never pay extra for HBO because these ugly black-and-white mug shots from THE SOPRANOS glare down on me every day. If I want to hear cursing on TV, I'll rent an R-rated movie.
"Take back the living and working space you've lost!" If you live an a typically microscopic Manhattan studio apartment, maybe it would be better not to buy so much junk in the first place!
Kinda makes me long for Julio and Marisol. At least I've learned a little Spanish from them.
I particularly dislike the ads for "Toothsavers" that list their prices for various dental procedures. You just *know* that if you go, your case will present "unusual complications" and your cost will be a lot higher. It's sort of like those newspaper ads for too-good-to-be-true car leases ... no, you _cannot_ get an Explorer for $249 a month, no matter what the ad says. Oh, I also recall that the _Daily News_ recently did an expose on incompetent dentists - was Toothsavers among them? I seem to think they were.
Although many people poke fun at Dr. Zizmor's ads, I find them amusing, in a campy way.
The Hotjobs ads may be annoying, but they generate the funniest subway grafitti!
>>>>The Hotjobs ads may be annoying, but they generate the funniest subway grafitti! <<<<<
U R Absolutley right about that
Right on, that's only reason I ever look at those ads.
This is one of the downsides of transit's decision a number of years
ago to sell entire cars or half-cars to a particular advertiser.
There was a time when you could kill at least 15 minutes reading all
of the ads visible in your immediate area. No more. These panel
jobs have very little text and even less to say.
The "E" (as in "E"-commerce") ads in particular tend to be tacky
and obnoxious both in design and message. HotJobs depicts a
bunch of ruthless, materialistic yuppies that I'd neither want to
hire nor have working with me.
The (modern) ad I miss most is MD Tusch.
[sell entire cars or half-cars to a particular advertiser]
Unless your part of an orginization that supports funding for the 2nd Avenue Subway...
1. The domestic violence ad beginning with "Every 12 seconds....". I do not believe any worthwhile purpose is served by having this constantly rammed down our throats.
2. The ad showing a "homeless" woman crouched behind a subway stairway while a subway employee offers her a helping hand. Sorry, but it looks phony as all get-out. She has Hollywood written all over her. I'm sure there are real homeless who could have posed for that ad and used the money.
I'm sure I could think up more, but enough for now, unless there are some out there who are getting tired of the old Zizmeister!
Bob Sklar
[2. The ad showing a "homeless" woman crouched behind a subway stairway while a subway employee offers her a helping hand.]
That picture was taken at the Transit Museum. Look carefully behind the staircas and you will find a sign that says "COURT ST." in the original(?) IND signage.
Some sick person wrote stuff on those ads on the buses out of Casey Stengel Bus Depot, referring the women in those photos as "Murray's Girls."
03/16/2000
Who is Murray ??
Bill Newkirk
My best guess is that Murray is that "Sick person" who wrote that stuff.
BTW, I'm talking about those public service ads that say "Every 12 seconds..."
The ad showing the forlorn teenage mother holding a baby and listing the 'job requirements' of teenage parentage (no salary, no vacation, on duty 24/7) should be posted behind every chair in every high school, or even junior high, in the country.
Nothing else has made the point as simply and directly.
[The ad showing the forlorn teenage mother holding a baby and listing the 'job requirements' of teenage parentage (no salary, no vacation, on duty 24/7) should be posted behind every chair in every high school, or even junior high, in the country.]
To the extent that the ad implies that the girl's social life is kaput, it's misleading. I've heard that in most high schools, girls with babies are among the most sought-after for dates (the boys know that they'll "put out").
yesterday around 1045pm, I saw the new Acela locomotive pushing a standard set of Amtrak coaches heading East at metroPark on track 3( Wrong railing.)
The locomotive was decked in full Acela colors and has a severely sloped front end
That is HHL-8. How is the testing going?
Chaohwa
the train was running light. The cars wre unrenovated cars( such as used on Northeast Direct (Dark Blue with red strip) and Red white and Blue scheme.This set of cars did not have any Acela color scheme cars. The engine seemed to have halogen headlamps=- extremely bright--two locations--near the top and "ditch lights"
the train went by very fast (even for Amtrak.)
I went to a site called the BLE(brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers) They say that Railroads like BNSF have Training centers to get a Railroad operations degree. Anyway, To work for Amtrak as an Engineer, Do u have to gain experience elsewhere or just go for them?
Please post a response or Email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com
4ever riding the rails,
Paul
Years ago ,I beleive East New York H.S. had a program for transit relate careers, I'm not positive , and its been a long time , I hope it,s still in existance.
Somebody jump in.
avid
I believe it was called 'Transit Tech' or more accurately, The High School of Transit Technology. It was a some kind of deal between the NYC Board of Ed and NYCT. I am not sure if this special program/school is still in existance (I think it was big about ten years ago).
Doug aka BMTman
As a High School student i have the big high school book. And yes there is a Transit Tech. It's located in Brooklyn. It mostly deals with the tecnology of the system. I don't belive that they have any train operater classes, they are just an high school.
Transit Tech is still there. It is near the Queens border.
J line to Norwood Av
B12 to Crystal and Liberty.
Q24 to Atlantic and the Conduits.
3TM
While riding the Broad Street Subway this morning (car #667) I saw about 3 small plastic thingies on the celing of the car, whose function I could not figure out. Does anyone know what I am thinking about.
I suspect they are video cameras. If they look like little bowls, that's what they are. Latest thing in transit security. Baltimore's already had several busts due to ours.
Did they look like this:
Image 1
Image 2
...? If so, those are definitely surveilance cameras. I assume they're mostly for crime deterrence, but maybe the TO does monitor them. I think it was some sort of trail program, because those have been around for quite a while on a few BSS and MFL cars, but I haven't seen any added since the first few.
I've seen the camera housings on quite a few M-4's but haven't noticed them on Broad St. I often wondered if those on the El were operational...
About how long does it take to drive from NYC to the museum?
I never really timed it but I'd guess about an hour. A little hint: Instead of taking I-95 all the way take the Hutch into the Merrit Pkway and take that to I think to Millford where you have to then get on I-95. Its alot more scenic and less traffic with no commercial traffic.
Merrit Pkwy joins I-95 at Exit 38. On a good day, it might be an hour's drive. On average though, I'd say an hour and twenty minutes. Use Metro North from GCT over the weekend, and it takes approximately an hour and forty-three minutes.
-Stef
I drive up there from NJ. From the GW Bridge to BERA (on I-95) takes me about 1 hour 35 minutes when there is no traffic. Note the operative word-no traffic! Connecticut has a great way to kill tourism thanks to the endless construction on 95. Sometimes the trip can take twice as long. The Branford (oh yes Shore Line) Trolley Museum is still worth the trip. I've been active up there since I got my license in 1972 ( and still had hair!!).
As someone who drives up nearly every weekend from NYC, I'll
repeat what Ira and Jeff R. have already said: It depends on
traffic. It's about 1:15 from the Whitestone Bridge, and about
1:30 from the GWB with no or light traffic. The worst traffic
is during the summer season. Driving up early so as to arrive by
about 10:30 (the time of the first trolley trip) you will rarely
encounter any traffic, even during the summer. Beyond about 11,
every minute turns into two. My worst time was about 2:30 from
the Whitestone coming up during the Friday evening rush.
The Merrit is a good alternate but because of hair-brained
construction patterns, it is currently a big mess right at
the New York State line. Hopefully that will end soon.
There are now traffic cameras on I-95 that can be viewed over
the internet. Of course, I can't find the URL right this minute.
From LI, Nassau County, it takes about 1 1/2 hours. I agree with others that have said that it's a little over an hour from the Whitestone bridge.
The museum opens officially on Sundays in April, then Sat/Sun. in May.
However if you want to get up close and personal with a Red Bird there will be a "sanding party" comming up in a few weeks. Hopefullly 3 members of the 3/4 ton crew will be "Qualified Trolley Operators" by then. I was getting handle time on a TARS, 3rd Ave Ry Sys, car last weekend. She has a foot pedel, and horn as well as ding ding.
We would love to have a few fence sitters join us to have a little fun and get dirty in a labor of love. If you're a mind, we'll even let you subway surf on the roof, with sanding paper in hand of course.
Don't want to get dirty ... join the museum and come up April 29th for "Member's Day" where a lot of the equipment will be available for rides after some burgers & coke.
Mr t__:^)
Read the Rule Book, Rule 222 can't use the horn if there is a bell darg gone!!! Is it Saturday yet??? can't wait.
As Steve would say, long buzz! That rule applies to air whistles.
629 has an automotive-style horn. It's ok to use it.
I wonder what Steve's buzz would sound like. The one they used to use on Truth or Consequences comes to mind.
At least I-95 and the Merritt Pkwy are free now...
I'll be going up in my big Chrysler next weekend and can tell you with certainty that keeping your speed around 60-65 (speed limit), the drive will take approximately 2 hours. I'm coming from Brooklyn.(However, if you're originating from The Bronx or northern Queens the time should less by about 25 mintues).
Doug aka BMTman
Since I have ridden with 3 of the posters here, Traffic is the Number One determining factor. Number Two is the way you drive. All three posters drive differently IMHO and this makes a big difference as well.
Does anyone out there know the exact location of the Jahn's in Richmond Hill?? Chris R, I know you live near there, do you know. People were inquiring about it on my high school message board at www.classmates.com
By the way Dave, my cookies seem to have been erased, I got a blank board to put my name, password,etc.
Because you are off topic, maybe if you said what train do I take to get to Jahns in Richmond Hill It will not have been erased. By the way your R-1 sounds sick but great
Jeff...Wasn't it on myrtle just before it hit jamaica Ave., right near the Richmond Hill sta.?
Carl M.
Yes it is It's closer to Myrtle Ave and almost directly across the street from the LIRR Richmond Hill Station. BTW: is the BINGO parlor still there?
I believe the Bingo Parlor (the old RKO Keith's) is still there.
Here's Jahn's , and here's the Richmond Hill station.
Thanks to everyone!!! As a kid I always went to the East Meadow Jahn's. I think I'll take my family to the Richmond Hill's one. Somebody told me the Kitchen Sink is actually $56 now. Can that be possible?
Yikes. That's way too steep for me.
Probably and take plenty of diapers for the way home or Lomotil
Hillside Ave, just west of the intersection of Myrtle Ave. The closest stop is 121St. st, although technically the Richmond Hill LIRR station is closer, if trains still served this stop.
You can take the Q55 bus to the last stop and walk across the street.
Bus? What's a bus?
Oh yeah, those beasts that pollute the air and generally clog traffic.
I found two listings for Jahn's in Queens. Here's a link to Maps On Us links for both of them. The first is Richmond Hill, the second is Flushing, so take your pick.
--Mike
It must have just happened, and I didn't see anyone mention it here— I was transferring from the N to the M and the north side platform has opened already! (now the other side is closed. It's nice, with the new wall and stone-like floor tiles. (There are some sections of wall that are not finished yet.) I sure hope they fixed the leaks.
The only thing is that they didn't open the passage to the Queens bound JMZ, so you have to come out on the Manhattan side and go all the way around (the only way to get to that platform now!)
Last I was there (months ago), the southern tracks in the station/transfer passage were ripped-up. Are both directions tracked now? Will the station be used when trains switch sides of the "Manny B"?
Yes and yes. There are still leaks, however.
I wonder if the odor still remains. That choking, overwhelming stench of vomit and rotting flesh is unique to this station.
What you're smelling is the stink of FISHWATER from the fishmongers up on the street. Their fish sits in a bed of ice and they empty it into the gutter at day's end where it melts and runs down into the storm sewer and so into the subway. Add rotting garbage to this sour soup and you get just what you smell.
BTW -- aren't they attempting to replace a major Water Main in Canal Street proper, from Lafayette Street to West Broadway - and might this leaky main/storm drain be the source of some of the water woes down there?
Wayne
The water woes have plagued Canal St for decades. As the lowest point in the complex, the Bway express platform gets the worst of it.
Thank goodness!!! I was getting sick & tired of that poor excuse for a subway platform! The thing was poorly maintained, had the beginnings of stalagmites on the platform, and had stuff people don't want to step in! I'm glad they changed that!
And every day, people still wait at this platform, thinking a train will come. This, despite very conspicous red signs saying that nothing stops there.
Want to see stalagmites? Go to Broadway on the "G" - you'd swear you were in Howe's Caverns (only kidding) - but the only thing worse than that one is probably You Know Where on the J/M/Z.
Wayne
The funny thing is, the S. 4th St. shell upstairs is supposedly in decent shape. Go figure...
About a week ago, someone posted a message (don't remember who) about seeing new steel being added to the West End el, and signal and control buildings (?) being built all along it, I think. There was no reply. Yet I think with all the expertise out there, someone must know specifically what is being done, and why. Is it being done on all three tracks, in all directions? Is this very costly? Would this need to be done to increase frequency?
The Culver el seems to look like the West End el. Is it about the same age and has (or will) the same upgrade or replacement be done there, too? Is it being done on any other lines in the city?
Mike Rothenberg
Yes, the entire West End signal system is being replaced. The current system is original (1918?) equipment. These structures usually accompany any new signal system. The J line got them when it's signals were replaced in 1994-95. Because there isn't a middle track east of Broadway/Eastern Pkwy, they were constructed in the middle of both tracks.
The West End and Culver els were all built at about the same time (1917/18).
...the entire West End signal system is being replaced...
Are they replacing the existing system with the same type wired logic or will they be using more modern hardware such as Programmable Logic Controllers (PLC's).
Hello out there from TV land!
Just got my password and rarin' to go! In reply to Brightliner: The ABs received a rebuild in the late 1950s due to lack of funds for new cars. The rebuilds were expected to last approx. 8 years and exceeded that by some being in service till 1969. As for the D-types: The TA wanted to go only with standard (no pun intended) equipment, and viewed the D-types as not, therefor they had to go. It's ironic that the D-types had not been outshopped since the late 1940s and early 1950s and still were in excellent condition right up to the scrapper. Some railfans would argue that the D-types were the best rapid transit rolling stock ever produced, though to me you can't have the D-types without the ABs and vice-versa. (what do you expect from a Southern Division Boy?)
BTW: Love that Brightliner handle, though it took me years to warm up to the R32s since they were directly responsible for the demise of D-types and many of the ABs.
We've got: Hot Lunch!
Welcome back!!!!!1
In an earlier thread, it's been surmised that the non-Manhattan status of the G is what's preventing the F/G express service between Bergen and KIngs Hwy, at least.
So...is there any way to devise a new route for the G in which it would still serve Greenpoint, Williamsburgh, Bed Stuy, & Clinton Hill and route it into Manhattan? I imagine it would have to use the A tracks somehow via Hoyt Schermerhorn.
Or, perhaps, you could build a new East River tunnel and extend the Court St Museum Spur to Whitehall, where connections could be made with the R/N? (the tunnelers would have to get around the Joralemon and Montague St tunnels to do that)
The main problem with the F express tracks is they don't extend north of Bergen St.
www.forgotten-ny.com
An alternate could be a junction with the mighty "L" in the area of Lorimer and Metropolitian.
avid
[So...is there any way to devise a new route for the G in which it would still serve Greenpoint, Williamsburgh, Bed Stuy, & Clinton Hill and route it into Manhattan? I imagine it would have to use the A tracks somehow via Hoyt Schermerhorn.]
Supposedly, making a connection between the G and the A at Hoyt-Schermerhorn would require a considerable amount of construction and, naturally, a whole pile of $$$. The lack of any such connection, and the difficulty of remedying it, has been identified as one of the IND's few major engineering and design blunders.
There is no way to re-route the G to Manhattan without spending money.
With money, you could re-route the G with two new junctions. First, you'd have to rebuild the junction east of Hoyt so the G is headed toward Jay Street, not away. Second, you'd have to hook the G into either the 53rd St or 63rd St tunnel.
In that case (and with the 63rd St tunnel open to Queens Boulevard trains) the G could run as a loop. Connected to the "A" tracks at Jay and 53rd St (F diverted to 63rd St), it could run as a second 8th Avenue express in Manhattan. Connected to the "F" tracks at Jay Street and the 63rd St tunnel, it could run as a second (or third) 6th Avenue local.
All of this means spending money to help Brooklyn -- not bloody well likely! The only way it might have happen, or might happen in the future, is if it is decided to take the trains off the Willie B and tear down the Broadway El. In that case the L train, the A/C, and a G direct to Manhattan would provide most (but not all) Eastern Division riders with a reasonable walk to a direct train to Manhattan. In that case, however, the Ridgewood trains and Jamaica Ave line would have to be hooked up to something as well.
Why should the MTA extend the G into Manhattan? I don't see why passengers won't just walk across the platform to get the F or A into Manhattan. They'd be spending too much money to make the connections.
If they're going to make the extension by making a tunnel to connect with the N/R, they should do it after the N can us the chrystie st. connection. Otherwise, there will be too much congestion.
I proposed connecting it into the #7 line, and converting the entire G line to IRT specs, using the Court St. (museum) stub as it's southern terminal. The Flushing line from Queensboro Plaza east would be connected into the 60th St. tunnel. The connection from Queens Blvd. to 60th St. would be servered. All locals would then use the 63rd. St tunnel (Broadway and 6th Ave.)
But it's probably too expensive.
I wonder if in the summer of 2000 the Redbirds will be gone if thats what they say but they will replace the R142 on the 2,5,6 and what about the rebirds on the 4, and 7 will R142 replace them.
The Redbirds will be around in full force in the summer of 2000. Don't expect to see ANY Redbirds retired before 2001, unless an individual car/pair gets into trouble that either isn't repairable or would require a tremendous effort to fix.
David
#1 There are 1,080 R142 Subway Car. #2 There are over 1,400 Redbirds currently running on service. #3 There is not enough R142 cars replace Redbird cars. #4 All i heard they will replace on #2, #5, #6. Also #7 will keep about 400 Redbirds & will stay until sometime 2005 replace by new subway cars.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
There are enough options in the R-142 and R-142A orders to replace Redbirds one-to-one, however, some will be maintained before replacement by a whole new contract to allow for a service increase.
I agree with david except for one area with the #5 line. Beleave redbirds will last be seen on this line before retirement I think the first of the lines getting the new R142s will be #2 and #7 lines considering #7 line does not have any R62s Think they will keep the majority of the WF cars until they're retirement. Was in 207th st yard the other day 2 WF cars there awaiting scrap 9500 and 9501 will most likly be there for awhile some of the cars on the scrap tracks have been there for 3yrs
Until you see construction at either the Corona and/or Coney Island yards to modify the maintenance area to handle the roof-mounted air conditioning units, don't expect to see the 7 get any R-142 cars.
If the Flushing line does finally get them, it will probably be the final 400 or so of the order, which means the Redbirds will live on for at least the next 18 months to two years.
I figured since #7 has not recived any new equipment they were due I know R62s were tested on the #7 line but were sent back to the other IRT lines don't know why?
Probably because the MBDF on the Flushing trains has been among the best in the system over the years, and that's probably because the Corona yard has been handling nothing but R-33WF and R-36 WF trains for the past 36 years, while the other shops were working on a little bit of this here and that there.
If the Flushing trains had the reliability of, say, the R-16s in the early 1980s, chances are the R-142s would have ended up at Corona before they went anyplace else.
Coney Island doesn't need any modification to handle roof-mounted A/C. CI already has a heavy overhead crane.
-Hank
Believe whatever you want...the car assignments haven't been finalized yet.
David
I was just giving an opion
I don't have a problem with an opinion, as long as it can't be debunked by facts. The fact is, the assignments haven't been finalized. That's the point I was trying to make...I didn't mean to offend or insult.
David
Did not mean to come off the wrong way I was giving an example reguarding the #5 line from 180th ST to dyre ave station where I do not see any of the R62s being oporated on this part of the #5 line sorry for the misunderstanding redbird
S'allright. There are two sets of R-62As up there. They're used for OPTO shuttle service overnight, and they can also be seen during the day from time to time -- I've seen them. I went up there Wednesday afternoon to watch the R-142 pilot cars being tested, and both General Order shuttle trains were Redbirds.
David
David
What does OPTO mean?
One Person Train Operation (motorman does all, no conductor).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks anon I seen it before but did not remember what it meant. The union is ageinst this type for oporation feel a conductor is needed at all times.
And, given the way many of the stations are laid out in New York, they may be right. (I don't believe I just agreed with a union position - horrors!) Some lines, especially at night when short trains are being run, OPTO may be OK, but not all the time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know R-62s can't run on the 7 because the lights which indicate door or motor conditions hit obstructions on the tunnel walls (or the walls themselves (?)) and break off. This is said to have happened a number of times.
Can the R-142s make it through the Steinway tunnels without this happening, or do they have the same problem?
the r 142s will not make it on the # 7 !!!!
why don't the lights on the Redbirds break off...
[why don't the lights on the Redbirds break off... ]
I guess they don't stick out as far.
That thing with the lights on the R-62s happened over 15 years ago and was attributed to uneven track in the Steinway Tubes, which are very narrow. The tracks are in much better shape now.
David
And it's not a problem any longer. The entire system, with one major exception, is in 200% better shape than it was just 17 years ago. No 5mph speed restrictions between express stations, no switch fires, no stalled trains on every line, no doors that won't open 'just because', no graffitti, a lot less crime, much cleaner trains and stations.
BTW, the R127/134 cars have the same loading guage and lights as the R62 do. No problem there.
-Hank
I Live In Phoenix, Arizona As Of 10pm MST 14mar2000 We Voted In A Transit Propition For a system of light rail and bus service. The first 24 miles of light rail will be constructed over the nest 4 to 6 years.
Would your people be interested in buying some beautyful well maintained , low milage, red cars, garaged, non-smoker, ac , 1 owner.
avid
Never been raced.
avid
Well, the R33 models have, up and down Seventh Avenue...
Throw in a supply of Bondo, sanding discs and steel wool and I think you can make a deal.
Wayne
Yeh, but will they run after 7PM, Sundays and Holidays, not like your bus system that does not.nless they changed that in the past couple of years
Yes 4:30am To 12:30am Monday-Friday
4:30am To 11:30Pm Saturday & Sunday
For Buses Starting In Augest 2000 and Light Rail When 1st Line Opens in 4 to 6 years. (first 50 new buses ordered at 7 am on 15 march 2000)
And boy, does Phoenix need it. Driving in from Casa Grande on I-10 or Superior on U.S. 60, you can see the smog cloud just hanging over the valley nowadays, as bad as anything in the Los Angeles area.
It was just as bad back in 1980 when I went out there. I saw the cloud from the top of Squaw Peak looking down on the city; a dreadful brown miasma. Down below it was an unbearable 116 degrees. At midnight it was 98 degrees and the water temperature in the hotel pool was 90. Ah, Phoenix...land of Cactus...
We had a great time at Victoria Station and the eight of us ran up a $200+ bar tab. We were BAD COMPANY indeed.
Where are they planning to run the LRV or has that been decided yet? I would think that Scottsdale will get a line, as would Tempe and perhaps the Airport and Sun City.
Wayne
The 1st line (Please Give me a name) will start at Chris-Town Mall on 19th ave and Bethany Home (First New transit Center on Line) South to Camelback Rd then East to Central Avenue then South thru Downtown to Phoenix Union Station (Past & Future stop for Sunset Limted And Texas Eagle Amtrak Trains) Then East On Either Washington & Jefferson Streets Or SP/UP ROW(In Negoiations as Perfered Route) Though Sky Harbor Airport (Connecting With Terminal Subway (Station In Basement of Terminal 4) Then E To Arizona State University In Tempe Arizona. This Line Will have future northern Ext to Metrocenter Mall and the north Phoenix I-17 Industrial Complex. And eastern Extention to Downtown Mesa Arizona.
2 other routes are planned one going west from Downtown Phoenix in the I-10 median to Desert Sky Mall the other going NE from Downtown Phoenix To the Paradise Valley Mall Via the Squaw Peak Parkway (AZ51) median to Scottsdale Airpark Industrial Area.
The Light Rail Street Tracks Will Stop only At 1 Mile Major Streets Only. Freeway & SP/UP ROW Will operate as Express Lines.
Of course, Denver has its own brown cloud as well. It's more prevalent during the winter months when temperature inversions occur.
And, speaking of light rail, only about 3/4 of a mile of catenary installation remains to be done. It's in place as far south as the flyover/swapover to the north of Belleview Ave., as well as between the last two stations. The stations are coming along as well, although the Hampden Ave. station still doesn't have canopies. Test trains are supposed to begin operating once catenary installation is complete; you'll all be the first to know about it when that happens. The countdown to the July 14 opening continues...
This is starting to look like an infinite series ... there'll never be a shortage of raw material! Anyway, on to the story.
Today's _Wall Street Journal_ reported on the New York Stock Exchange fiasco. It follows a rather familiar pattern. NYSE management made this absurd hollow threat about moving to Jersey City if they didn't get a new, larger trading floor. City officials actually believed this "threat" and came up with a retention plan costing several hundred million dollars. This plan called for building a new trading floor and other office space on property adjacent to the NYSE that's now owned by J.P. Morgan and Rockrose Development. Unfortunately, the City officials were so desparate to cut a deal with the NYSE that they neglected to finalize a deal with Morgan and Rockrose - who, you will not be surprised to hear, are demanding more and more $$$ for their properties. Meanwhile, construction cost estimates keep going through the roof. Oh, there's another thing that the article didn't mention. A big trading floor would be a major tourist attraction and create terrific photo ops, but most likely would be obsolete by the time it's finished.
Unless you didn't provide the full description for lack of space, you didn't indicate how idiotic the proposal is.
1) The NY Stock Exchange wanted to move to Battery Park City, but property owners in the middle of Downtown convinced Giuliani that this would leave Wall St a ghost town, and cause all those working at the exchange to move to NJ and take the ferry. So the city is proposing to pay vastly more to put the NYSE where it doesn't want to be.
2) To build the project, NYC will have to use eminent domain to evict residential tenants from a coverted office building completed just a few years ago, with city tax breaks.
I worked on this project. I wrote a carefully worded (well, after my boss edited it it was carefully worded) memo that implied that perhaps this was not such a good idea, and maybe we should wait and see what happens with technology. It was ignored. The city relied on an EDC memo that indicated that unless the city gave the Stock Exchange whatever it wanted the ENTIRE FINANCIAL INDUSTRY would move to NJ, leaving NYC (after the ususal inflated multiplier effect) with the size and wealth of Detroit.
[Unless you didn't provide the full description for lack of space, you didn't indicate how idiotic the proposal is.
1) The NY Stock Exchange wanted to move to Battery Park City, but property owners in the middle of Downtown convinced Giuliani that this would leave Wall St a ghost town, and cause all those working at the exchange to move to NJ and take the ferry. So the city is proposing to pay vastly more to put the NYSE where it doesn't want to be.
2) To build the project, NYC will have to use eminent domain to evict residential tenants from a coverted office building completed just a few years ago, with city tax breaks.
I worked on this project. I wrote a carefully worded (well, after my boss edited it it was carefully worded) memo that implied that perhaps this was not such a good idea, and maybe we should wait and see what happens with technology. It was ignored. The city relied on an EDC memo that indicated that unless the city gave the Stock Exchange whatever it wanted the ENTIRE FINANCIAL INDUSTRY would move to NJ, leaving NYC (after the ususal inflated multiplier effect) with the size and wealth of Detroit.]
The WSJ article didn't say anything about the Battery Park City plan, but I do now recall hearing about it elsewhere. What I fail to understand is precisely *why* Battery Park City would be such a bad location. I mean, we're talking only about a few hundred yards or thereabouts, not moving to the other side of town. Downtown's surely not in any danger of being a "ghost town" if the NYSE moved such a short distance. Yes, some blocks might suffer a little bit, while others would gain, but that's not the sort of thing that the City should try to micromanage. Battery Park City is a bit more remote from the subways than the NYSE's current location, but if NYSE management could live with that, so be it.
That EDC "study" sounds like a complete laugh. How anyone with a triple-digit I.Q. score could accept its conclusions with a straight face is beyond imagining. At least we know how the members of the City Council were able to accept it.
One more point about NYC idiocy. In NYC, this kind of deal gets done with local tax dollars raised from NYC residents and less politically connected businesses.
These sorts of deals also get done elsewhere in the state. With New York State tax dollars half of which are also collected from NYC residents and less politically connected businesses.
While we are paying for stadiums all over the rest of the state, no way Giuliani would allow Pataki to get some of the credit for giving billions to the Mets and Yankees.
Arrgh!
And you see how much big business NYS has helped locate in Syracuse and Utica.
(Not much NYC help for big business in Syracuse or Utica)
You can offer a bribe, but that doesn't mean it will be taken.
Acutally, Upstate appears to be taking off finally, and there have been lots of state deals up there. Not that the two facts have anything to do with each other.
Corporate welfare, Business as usual
Peace.
Andee
I think what you're seeing is the overreaction to the opposite attitude that prevailed from the late 1950s into the late 1970s -- "We're New York, no one is going to move out of here to have their heaquarters in (New Jersey, Fairfield County, Virgina, Texas, Bora-Bora..), so we don't have to give them anything."
That led to the city imposing a lot of ridiculous corporate taxes and other surcharges, or making it tough for new facilities to be built (i.e. the Dodgers' 1956 domed stadium project in downtown Brooklyn) and companies did move out of town.
Now that the city's bluff has been called, officials are scared to let another major industry slip away, so you have the opposite situation -- compnnies can ask for (and get) almost anything they want, because Giuliani or whoever's in office doesn't want to be accused of losing the Stock Exchange (or the Yankees, or NBC or whatever) to another state.
[I think what you're seeing is the overreaction to the opposite attitude that prevailed from the late 1950s into the late 1970s -- "We're New York, no one is going to move out of here to have their
heaquarters in (New Jersey, Fairfield County, Virgina, Texas, Bora-Bora..), so we don't have to give them anything."
That led to the city imposing a lot of ridiculous corporate taxes and other surcharges, or making it tough for new facilities to be built (i.e. the Dodgers' 1956 domed stadium project in downtown Brooklyn) and companies did move out of town.
Now that the city's bluff has been called, officials are scared to let another major industry slip away, so you have the opposite situation -- compnnies can ask for (and get) almost anything they want,
because Giuliani or whoever's in office doesn't want to be accused of losing the Stock Exchange (or the Yankees, or NBC or whatever) to another state.]
I see the ghost of Robert Moses smiling in the background. It's been noted that at least part of the city's complete inability to get even the simplest public-works projects accomplished is due to the reaction against Moses' somewhat roughshod tactics back in his heyday. Forty years after his effective retirement and twenty years after his death, many New Yorkers still remember (or, more likely, have read of) his build-at-all-costs policy, and in an over-reaction have made it nearly impossible to get anything done.
As you've pointed out, we have a similar situation with corporate blackmail. No doubt the Mayor and his advisors remember all too well the days when one corporation after another departed for greener pastures. Just like the anti-development Mosesphobes, they've overreacted and will cave into the most ludicrous corporate demands. We'd probably be better off if people had shorter memories.
As much as it pains me to say this, I have to defend city officials to a limited extent by pointing out that it's probably easier today than ever before for corporations to relocate out of New York.
(Easier today to relocate out of NYC than in the past)
Acutally its harder, much, much harder, than in the 1980s.
Back then, thanks to the Savings and Loan debacle (which we paid for), there was plenty of cheap office space everywhere, and thanks to the baby boomers reaching adulthood, there was plenty of unemployed, educated labor everywhere. Moreover, the 1980s boom was dominated by large, mature companies who find it easier to relocate less contact-intensive operations out of the city while maintaining a presence here as needed. When New York got expensive relative to the rest of the U.S., folks just left.
Today, labor is scarce, and there is nowhere to go. Young people are at a premium, and they want to live in New York. So at the peak of the boom, instead of New York filling up and stopping its growth, it actually is growing faster than the U.S., which (given that it is already developed with fixed boundaries) is unheard of. Moreover, the Silcon Alley companies are not yet large enough to relocate the billing department to Florida while keeping the talent here.
The biggest problem now is that we are running out of space, and it takes too long and costs too much to build more. The real estate market loves it, but I see it as much of a disaster as soaring vacancy and falling rents. And, this situation makes handing out handouts to companies that will probably leave eventually anyway and freezing out growing companies INSANE.
[(Easier today to relocate out of NYC than in the past)
Acutally its harder, much, much harder, than in the 1980s.
Back then, thanks to the Savings and Loan debacle (which we paid for), there was plenty of cheap office space everywhere, and thanks to the baby boomers reaching adulthood, there was plenty of unemployed, educated labor everywhere. Moreover, the 1980s boom was dominated by large, mature companies who find it easier to relocate less contact-intensive operations out of the city while maintaining a presence here as needed. When New York got expensive relative to the rest of the U.S., folks just left.
Today, labor is scarce, and there is nowhere to go. Young people are at a premium, and they want to live in New York. So at the peak of the boom, instead of New York filling up and stopping its growth, it actually is growing faster than the U.S., which (given that it is already developed with fixed boundaries) is unheard of.]
I see what you mean. I had been thinking in terms of corporate relocations in general - not specifically those from NYC - which probably are easier today given technological changes (the "telecommute from anywhere" scenario).
We have a strange situation in which NYC's high unemployment rate is actually a blessing in disguise. How so? If, let's say, Viacom moved its operations to Texas, they probably wouldn't be able to find enough employees, but here in New York there's no problem. Talk about a paradox ...
(High unemployment a blessing)
Unless you are unemployed. NYC is a place where it is still tough to get a job. Businesses are begging for space to locate in the city. People want to live here. Unfortunately, we are running out of real estate, while other places are running out of people.
Makes you really want to yell at those NIMBYs who oppose new commercial construction, and those nostalgia nuts who oppose the conversion of under-used industrial space.
I've been noticing the progress at 14thSt and 34th ST on the 8th Ave line. Both stations are beginning to shine and shake off that shabby look they both have had for the past few years. Kudos to all in this effort!
So how come the original tiles at 23rd St and 14th ST lacked the racing stripe from one end of the station to the other:
a)lack of tiles
b)lack of planning
c) lack of money
d) lack of time
e) all of the above
worth 15 pts on the final, open book, start now, you may look at your neighbors paper.
avid
Lack of money.Same reason many IND stations did not get concrete or tiles around the columns, as originally designed.
I thought only station and platform supports BENEATH STRUCTURES warranted jacketing with concrete and finishing with white tile, as part of the NYC Fire Department code. Jay Street-Borough Hall and Hoyt-Schermerhorn are examples of this "under the structure"/"under the street" design. Some stations have concrete-clad pillars (i.e. 205th Street, Bronx; Grand Avenue-Newtown, Queens; High Street-Bklyn Bridge, Brooklyn), and are either wholly or partially beneath structures, in the case of 205th Street, underneath the apartment blocks themselves. And at 205th Street, you can see some of the steel I-beams beneath the concrete jacket where water has eaten its way through. I'd suggest they call the plumbers there; they've got a nasty leak; then give the masons a yell.
Wayne
The last time I rode through 14th St it seemed that they were not putting in new white-on-black number tiles to indicate the station you were in. The old ones were being tiled over with no obvious replacements. Is there going to be some sort of station identifier on the walls (other than the colors of course)?
Another mistake on IND station rehabs is the the typeface of the letters: both on the black and white tiles and the mosaics.
Another boo-boo: the use of the ampersand. In other stations where it could have been used (Chambers St, 14th/6 Av), they use the word "AND" in one tile. i.e.
<- TO 14TH (AND) 16TH STREETS -<
At Metropolitan Avenue on the G line the tiles say
<- TO STREET & TRANSFER -<
Not authentic IND!
Not everywhere did this occur - Canal street and 207 street (also 7th Avenue-53rd, with its odd plaque) have been primarily guilty of this. 34th Street-(Penn Station)'s new captions are also sans-serif, but it's not so noticeable because the overall shape of the numerals is basically correct. They are trying to replicate the original IND font where possible (i.e. Chambers-(H&M), Broadway-(Lafayette), 81(st-[Museum]), Metropolitan-(Grand) and if I may say so myself, are doing a decent job of it. What DOES irk me, however, are renovations/conversions of IND stations where the do the tile band correctly and completely OMIT the black-tile captions, i.e. Woodhaven-(Queens Mall), Bergen, and most egregiously, Chambers-(WTC). They really goofed on the latter- the two stations, H&M and WTC, differ in several ways - one is panel tile, the other is hand-set; the tile bands are two different shades of purple, one reddish the other bluish, and one has the captions (H&M) and the other DOES NOT (WTC).
HATS AND HELMETS off to the tilesmiths who painstakingly recreated the 1924 design at Lorimer Street station on the "L".
Not only did they resurrect yards of frieze, but several tablets have been made brand new and only the sharpest eye can tell them from the originals. A thing of beauty is a joy forever.
Wayne
Other stations where the black-tile captions have been omitted from rehabs are 110th St. (CPW) and 161st St.-Yankee Stadium.
At 81st St. they added a stripe that had never been there before (most local stations on the 8th Ave. line had no stripes), but I must say it looks pretty good. Obviously the dinosaurs, etc. there are new, and I like them.
As for recreating IND tablets, they did a nice job of this at Franklin Ave. in conjunction with the Shuttle rebuilding - but why did they use grey tile for the background wall instead of white?
I've noticed that 14th St, is getting a racing stripe similar in width as the local stations have . I.e. a half black boarder, two tiles of orange and another half of black . I have noticed local stations have the two tile width and EXPRESS stations have half black,three colorand half black. pick one
a ) foul up.
b ) Cheap
c ) oversight
d ) all of the above
avid
All the more reason to ride on the L end-to-end this fall. Hard to believe it's been 30 years since I've seen the Lorimer St. station.
NONE of the above - none of the local stations along the first leg of the 8th Avenue line had any sort of tile band. Only the express stations had them, and they were two tiles high OR three tiles high SANS BORDER as opposed to the normal three WITH border. I believe this oversight was corrected when the second leg of the IND was opened. The stations south of 14th Street correct this anomaly.
14th Street had a solid deep yellow tile band, three tiles high, with no border. It has been replaced with a two-tile band with border in Butterscotch yellow and Terra Cotta brown. The black tile captions have not been installed yet but it appears they are marking and designating cutouts for them.
The local stations had TABLETS in the same color as their neighboring express stops (i.e. 23rd Street, yellow like 14th; 50th Street, purple like 42nd, 72nd through 116th blue like 59th, 135th green like 125th and so forth). Only recently have local stations on the 8th Avenue line began to sport tile bands, those being 81st Street and 207th Street, which is not really a "local" station. 207th Street formerly had no tile band at all - just a blank white wall with black tile captions - and has been given a proper tile band in the Red family although its light grey border (meant to simulate the glitter design in the mezzanine) is most non-standard IND.
Wayne
Hello. I'm new here and have been looking around the FAQs and the rest of the web site but I still can't find any information on those blue bulbs in the tunnels. What are they for? My hunch is that they mark where various service panels are located.
Telephone locations.
I heard that's where they store equipment in case of emergency
[Hello. I'm new here and have been looking around the FAQs and the rest of the web site but I still can't find any information on those blue bulbs in the tunnels. What are they for? My hunch is that they mark where various service panels are located.]
They mark the locations of emergency telephones and third-rail shutoff switches. If the shutoff switch is pulled, the person doing it has to pick up the emergency phone and report the problem right away, otherwise the controllers will turn the power back on.
Last night i was waitng for the Q train to arrive at deakalb avenue around 7;30 pm. a redbird pulls up on the M,N,R tracks .it wass the # 7 train. I know that this is possible for this IRT to link to the BMT line at queensboro plaza, but I was wondering is this a daily thing that takes place or is it a once in a while thing?
I've seen that before. I guess it's because the 7 is serviced at Coney. Still an odd occurance, tho....
i've seen it a few time going through times sq
Chances are train develped a malfuction and was being sent to the nearest yard useually will not see a move like this until late night when service is least busy so tracks are useually clear
The Corona R33S/R36 is shopped at Coney Island. If the problem is too great for Corona to handle, off to CI it goes, via Queensboro Pza and the Broadway Line.
Wayne
Strange move early in the evening don't you think?
Now if you saw a "Q" Train at Junction Blvd-that would be something!!!!
Yeah, especially with its mangled sides.-)
There's been a shooting on the No. 6 train at Lexington Avenue and 59th Street.
No one was injured, but a gun has been recovered and two people are in custody.
However, a police investigation at the subway station has forced all southbound 6 trains to run express from 125th Street to Grand Central.
The Transit Authority says police asked that power be turned off on the tracks at the 59th Street station. -- 1010 wins
Here is something that has been stupming me for years. Does anyone have a track diagram of PATCO between franklin Square (abandonned) and 8th & Market. For the life of me i can't figure it out. There's like a turnback, a connection with the broad ridge, tracks disappear, etc. I'd also like to know how the the "Ridge" line fits in. Thanks.
The connection with the Broad-Ridge, even if there are tracks in place (and I'm not sure of that) is NOT active. The two lines are separated by a fence. I also believe they're of a different gauge.
The Broad-Ridge may have hooked into the Walnut-Locust section at one point, but now has its own one-track terminus at 8th and Market. The PATCO trains (to New Jersey, I believe) run just beyond the single track. In fact, you can see Broad-Ridge trains from PATCO before the PATCO trains turn toward the bridge.
Michael
Correct, except that BSS and PATCO ARE the same loading guage, and that connection was once active, with Bridge Line trains regularly running up the spur, onto the mainline BSS - or spur trains running down to Walnut, I can't recall which. I think BobW covered the details of that here a while ago.
The other thing that is annoying, is that you can't transfer free from the MFSE to the Ridge trains. You end up paying a full extra fare. I remember when the tracks used to connect from thr Ridge trains to to old Camden Line which ran to 16th & Locust.
Maybe Dave's map will clear this up.
Chuck Greene
This has always been a point of contention since the establishment of free interchanges on SEPTA rapid lines in '79. Some say it was an attempt to kill the Ridge spur since one can transfer between Broad and Market-Frankford trains free at City Hall/15th. You may recall in the early 80's that the Spur was out of service for a few years during Center City tunnel construction. A bus shuttle provided a replacement service, and patrons were directed to the free interchange as a better alternative. When the Spur came back (minus Spring Garden station), the riders came back - unfortunately for those who hoped the Spur would die.
Thanks for the info, Bob !
Chuck Greene
I have such a map, on paper. I'll see about getting a scan of it for you.
-Dave
I don't have the picture so I'll need to use the thousand words (until Dave gets the map). It's like this:
Eastbound PATCO - just north of 8th/Market, there is a third (center) track between EB and WB PATCO. Layups are stored here. This was the connection to the Ridge spur at one time. EB PATCO continues north beneath 8th to about Race, then turns right. At one time this was the junction between Bridge and Ridge trains, with a switch to NB Ridge (this is now gone and the tunnel is fenced across with cyclone fencing). PATCO continues into Franklin Square, then out onto the Ben Franklin Bridge.
Westbound PATCO - it enters the tunnel from the Ben and passes through Franklin Square. Past the station, it dips to a second level to pass below the Bridge/Ridge junction, then continues into 8th/Market. Just north of the station, the center track connects to it, the center track having 'dropped' from the 'upper' level (again, providing a connection at one time for SB Ridge trains to reach the lower level).
The current Ridge terminal did not exist before '68. All Ridge trains went to the lower level, where some turned, and others changed ends and ran to Camden. Some Ridge trains went to 15th/16th (Locust), the current PATCO terminus, but none to Walnut-Locust on the Broad Street subway. Bridge Line trains typically ran 8th/Market to Camden with some changing ends at 8th/Market to and from Girard via Ridge.
Since the systems are of the same gauge, wouldn't it be nice for PATCO and SEPTA to share the track beyond 8th Market to 15th-16th Streets? It would make infinite sense and make connections to another part of the city even easier.
Part of the problem, of course, is that there would have to be some serious track realignment and the 15th-16th station would have to be rebuilt with at least three tracks, maybe four.
Michael
The Market Frankford is NOT the same guage and also has underunning third rail rather than PATCO's overrunning.
I believe Mike was referring to running the BSS Spur all the way down to the west terminus of PATCO at 15th/16th, which would be very convenient. Another idea might be to just run it down to 9th/10th
(Dreaming: run the BSS spur down PATCO to 9th/10th, then run a short new line that continues down to the southern waterfront area...)
I think that it would be better to have a line run up Third Avenue from a point south of 14th Street to a point north of 63rd Street. This will shorten transfer times, and walks, between the 2nd/3rd Avenue line and the L, 7, E, F, N, R, and Q lines, since all but the Q have exits at the Third Avenue end of their respective stations.
Transferring between a station on 2nd Avenue to a station on 3rd Avenue would be like transferring from the F to the 7th Av line at 14th St, without walking down any subway line platforms between them. Shifting the line to 3rd Avenue would make it easier to transfer to the lines listed above. However, transferring from the 2nd/3rd Av line to the Lexington Av Line (42nd, 53rd, 60th Streets) would be like the 14th Street/6th/7th Av transfer.
Any opinions on this (besides mine, of course!)?
(Put the 2nd Ave on 3rd Ave)
I half-agree. A 3rd Avenue line would be closer to East Midtown, the commercial core from 30th Street to 60th Street, and thus more likely to draw passengers from the Lex. South of 30th St, however, the eastern commercial areas are served by the BMT Broadway line, and 3rd Ave is further away from the hospitals along the river.
One way to get 2nd Avenue riders is the oft discussed Shuttle extenstion east. It wouldn't be cheap, but neither would shifting the line over an avenue.
Third Ave. would be a good choice. A two block walk from 1st to 3rd is about right then the walk north or south to the nearest station would be OK.
The location to walk east to major destinations in Mid town would work well. When I stayed with freinds on 26th between 1st and 2nd we would ride the 3rd and Lex buses often. The 3rd Ave subway would work
if done well.
I still think that curb lane running streetcars or (Light rail if you must) would be very effective in the area. More productive than buses, not as capital intensive as a subway.
The problem is the subways would be extremely close to one another for a long distance. In addition, when one gets to the UES, there's an additional Avenue, York, an walking from the Gracie Mansion area would still be almost as long. The best solution is to install moving walkways. There would only be 3 places where they would be needed (42, 53, 60). Lexington Avenue on the 63rd Street line DOES have a Third Avenue exit, but the patronage in that station doesn't justify opening it. Even so, there won't be much use for a transfer there as there would be trains from Upper 2nd using 63rd Street and that station, and eastbound one could always transfer to other QB trains at 60th or 53rd.
Where is this phantom exit? There's no visible sign of it on the street or on the platforms.
Door on east end of each platform. Unless the door connects to the north side of the station.
I agree that station placement would be a big problem for a full-length Second Ave. line, once you get past Houston (easy hook up with the F) and 14th Streets (connection with the east end of the Third Ave. L station).
Having no crosstown connection in the Midtown area for riders headed uptown (or going downtown in the other direction) would keep a lot or riders on the Lex, especially in bad weather conditions. Although the grade may be steep, I think the MTA would have to think about building a UN stop on the Flushing line to serve as a transfer point with a 42nd St. station, to get east side riders off the Lex and onto the new Second Ave. route.
An article in the New York Times from yeserday has the latest about this. The link is below:
http://content.entrypoint.com/content.asp?cid=13502979&md5=709131a06536f9a1f0c805d0108ea8b1&bid=1
Silver is making "the perfect the enemy of the good". If he persists, we may wind up with no 2nd Ave. subway at all. Let's get the uptown section built now; once it is there, it should be easier to get the downtown section built.
(Silver is making the best the enemy of the good)
A joke the enemy of a bigger joke more like it. Remember, the MTA does not propose to build the "stubway," it proposes to study it. By the end of this capital plan the MTA will be so deep in debt it will be unable to finish it.
Gee, haven't they already studied it?
Read about it here
Did everyone get theirs?
Unfortunately, I received the short form, so I did not have the pleasure of reporting that both I and my wife ride a subway to work. Nor did I have the pain of admitting that I own a car.
No other City Planners I know got the long form, but lots of lawywers did. Looks like the estimated number of lawyers will be going up.
I got one, it must have been what you call the "short form". I didn't realize there was more than one version. What all is on the long form? I expected questions about what we do for a living, salary, education, perhaps family heritage, things like that. But the short form is essentially list your household members and what race are they and that's it.
-Dave
(What is this short form vs. long form)
The short form goes to all households, and keeps getting cut down due to Republican "privacy" and respondent burden issues. It is used to produce the "public law" file for redistricting, which has to go out right away, and STF 1.
The long form goes to one out of every six households. Therefore, if you get one, whatever you say will be multiplied by six for your census tract, town, county, state, etc. Ie. there are six City Planners in Windsor Terrace. The long form is used to produce all the other files, and it is long.
The Census Bureau has proposed doing away with the long form, and replacing it the American Community Survey, taken every year but from fewer people. I don't like the idea, since the next step will be to cut the survey until it disappears.
What is "STF 1"?
I hope they do eliminate the long form altogether. The Constitution is explicit about the purpose of the census: it is to make an "enumeration" of the population for the purpose of apportioning legislative districts. Period. Using the census-taking process for any other purpose violates at least the spirit, and arguably the letter, of the Constitution, and simply should not be done.
While non-legislative uses of Census data may violate the precise "letter" of the Consitution, it does not violate the "spirit" thereof.
The members of the Constitutional Convention were fully aware that the new country and its needs would (have to) change over time, and thus took great pains to ensure that the Constitution could also change. Using Census data for planning certainly falls within the same public-policy framework as legislative apportionment, and thus would have met with approval in 1787.
On a related note, the issue of statisical sampling has become particularly controversial, because the 1787 wording calls for an "actual enumeration" of the population. The science of statistical analysis was not developed until the late 1800's (as a by-product of the Industrial Revolution); if it had existed 100 years earlier, it, too, would probably have been deemed an acceptable methodology.
From a transit perspective the data in the long form is helpful for determining where people live, work, and how they get from one place to another. The information can help support investment in transit capital and service that is needed.
Please fill out the form and if you are one of the lucky one in six to get the long form be sure to tell them that transit gets you where you need to go.
Mine did not ask me. They must be trying to avoid planners and transit people.
the BLUE LINE ( pasadena extention ) is supposed to begin final construction NO WHERE can anybody
prove filling out the SENSELESS-USELESS-CENCUS-2000 will """SUDDENLY"" inprove public transit in ANY
form whatsover !! IN LOST ANGELES they knew ripping out the PACIFIC ELECTRIC RED CARS .....
would be a 100% failure !! People like you dived head first into surendering all personal and confidential
information which is cross shared with the irs and all other public and private agencies etc........
AND IN SPITE OF THIS THEY RIPPED OUT AND DESTROYED OUR RAIL SYSTEM ANYWAY !!!
the useless senseless cencus is at best a 100 % FRAUD and waste on all of the american public !!!
i do not beleive any of the ""HOGWASH"" we are fed by a government i do not trust !!! at all !!
I WROTE ON MY CENCUS 2000 FORM IN BOLD RED LETTERS - DROP DEAD !!!!
everybody anit a fool !! NOW WE HAVE A GREEN LINE LIGHT THAT DOES NOT GO INTO THE
LOS ANGELES AIRPORT !!!! ( LAX ) by the same cencus people that knew so called better !!!!
you can beleive the LIES AND BULL if you want to transit capital is not for the people !!!
FINALLY WHEN THE CENCUS ENUMERATORS COME I WILL TURN THJE WATER HOSE ON THEM !!
they need to """ go away and leave us alone "" DONT ANSWER THE CENCUS 2000 !!!!!!!
You know, you'd have a lot more credibility insulting people if you could spell a word that's already on the screen.
-Hank
dont worry about my old keybord sometimes you make mistakes too !!!
HE SHOOTS, HE SCORES!!!
Repeatedly misspelling a word that has already been displayed on the screen twice, is in the title of every thread in nice, big, block letters is NOT a mistake. Typing 'teh' instead of 'the', that's a mistake. Using 400 exclamation points to end a question is not a mistake. Repeatedly posting 'Scrap the 142 with their anti-railfan waste of money not gonna last transverse cabs save the redbirds so they serve 100 years with their already badly rotting frames and bodies I don't care they've got a RAILFAN WINDOW!!!!!!' in all capital letters, 7 times in one post, 3 out of every 5 posts that bear your name, is not a mistake. It shows either a extreme misunderstanding of how to compose a sentence, a paragraph, and make some semblance of a sensible piece of writing, or a serious mental malfunction. Pigs can decide which it is.
-Hank
when your old macintoish is just that old !!! and your keyboard acts funny etc......
sometimes these keyboard dont act like the old typewriters used to do !!!! I DONT CRITIC
ANY POSTS FOR SPELLING JUST WHAT THEY SAY .... AS LONG AS I CAN UNDERSTAND THEM !!!
what does this have to do with rail systems worldwide ?????
We can't understand what you say when you scream so much.
-Hank
PS-Your fault for using a Mac.
new junk computers are expensive !! maybe i need new glasses ..............
Yeah, that's what you need, new glasses.
I think the replacement you're looking for is behind your eyes, not in front.
i will send you the bill !!! send me your cash check or money order !!!
Not filling out the census form should be a jailable offense, like tax evasion.
If the Census form tested intelligence, then I'd be more than happy not to have you fill it out, we don't need anybody deflating our nation's scores.
What many people DON'T understand is that the Census Bureau doesn't care about people's names but the ADDRESSES. Forms are mailed to households WITHOUT the names of residents. Respondents are asked to include their names ONLY in the event they have to be contacted for follow up. Census forms are protected for 72 years after the census and even then only family members can get a copy for the form, which is used in lieu of birth certificate or naturalization form to prove US citizenship.
Michael
Washington, DC
They are not supposed to ask any personal questions, it is a head count only.
Peace,
Andee
I just filled out my short form, they just asked how many people were in the house, age, sex and ethnic backround. My house was 3 females 1 Male all over 35 2 Anglo(I wanted to put Jewish but didn t and 2 Philipino) I am wondering what to answer in 10 years when I have a kid or too. White or Philipino. there was no question for mixed races
"there was no question for mixed races"
From what I've read in the papers, people who list themselves as mixed-race white/minority will be counted strictly in the minority category. They didn't say what the Census does with people who are a mix of two (or more) minority groups, nor did they say which minority someone gets placed in if they just put down "mixed" without specifying.
[I am wondering what to answer in 10 years when I have a kid or too. White or Philipino. there was no question for mixed races]
For the first time, the 2000 census allows people to check off two (or more) races if they are of mixed background.
but they do invade your pivacy !!
So does e mail, taxes, etc. At least in this country you have a choice, rather then some 3rd world dictatorship, or Middle East Kingdom
Good boy Bob; we'll make a Republican out of you yet.
what choice when you are lied to about how safe the senseless is !! tell that to the JAPENESE AMERICANS
back in 1940 !!! senseless-census-2000 !!!
I've just done an hour's worth of research into this. What was done was done in time of war, and while inexcusable, is understandable given the circumstances. I have found no credible evidence (yet) that census data was used in this case.
Oddly, XO 9066 was only enforced on those citizens of California, Oregan, and Washington. There was very little in the way of a public backlash against those people who were not intered. It was believed at the time that the Japanese were a larger villian in the war than the Germans turned out to be. The fact that they were not caucasians, and that few understood the culture didn't help any.
Executive Order 9066, signed by President Roosevelt on February 19, 1942, was the instrument that allowed military commanders to designate areas "from which any or all persons may be excluded." Under this order [many] Japanese and Americans of Japanese ancestry were removed from Western coastal regions to guarded camps in the interior.
There is no denying that this was absolutely wrong. There was no ACLU at the time to fight for the rights of these people. Something such as this will never again occur as long as the United States Constitution is the law of the land.
Enforcement of XO 9066 was ended, and the XO terminated 12/31/46 by Presidential Proclimation 2714; and was reaffirmed by President Ford 2/19/76 by Presidential Proclimation 4417
-Hank
PS-Do some research before you make statements. It keeps your face from changing colors. I also have to thank you for making me look up all this stuff so that I could adequately rebuff your blatant idiocy. (no sarcasm implied, I genuinely enjoyed looking up the info)
ok then !! !! GO TO AND STRAIGNTEN OUT THE NEW YORK TIMES last friday national edition !!!
thats where you need to go !!! thats where i got that info from get it now ???
I said 'yet'. I made that pretty clear, because I wanted even you to understand it. My 4-year-old cousin figured it out, once I told her that evidence means 'proof' (and equated that with 'truth'). Give me the exact date the issue was published (the page and section would be useful as well) and I'll go to Mid-Manhattan on my lunch break Monday and look it up. If it turns out you're right, I'll let you know.
-Hank
last fridays new york times contradicts every thing you said !!! LAST FRIDAY NEW YORK TIMES NATIONAL
EDITION census was used against americns japenese AMERICANS who were fooled into the 1940 CENSUS !
You don't have to go to the library. I have the article On SubForum. Through the comfort of my own home thanks to the online services of that same library.
wow you proved me right oink !! oink!!
Interesting read. I'd love to see the paper. You're right. My apologies.
-Hank
On the other hand, old census data..(and thats the ONLY kind available [the latest Census available for any kind of perusal is 1910]is invaluable as a research tool for geneologists,ESPECIALLY where immigration is involved....if ANYONE [you too salaamallah] can show where census datas been misused, PLEASE show me. The privacy record of the Census has been IMPECCIBLE for 200 years.....The REAL threat to our privacy comes from big-time business, who DOES use your personal info every which way it can get away with.....AS far as our founding fathers is concerned..if we followed the original intent of EVERYTHING they wanted, we wouldn't have a standing army today..(the whole raison d'etre of the second amendment by the way..no matter WHAT the NRA says...)
If it's a head count, what about acephalous people?
what is the head count really for ? new and expanded rail transit construction and extended service !! ?????
i tell you what if they install new RAILFAN- WINDOW equipped transit cars.... then count the heads !!!
The head count is for congressional representation.
The rest, I don't care if you answer, your tax dollars should go to people in New York, not to pay for your encephalectomy treatments.
i know people in new york sick of government-and-census !! you seem to be the only one who loves it
oink !!! oink !!!
They don't count. They've got no heads!
-Hank
Main Entry: aceph·a·lous
Function: adjective
1 : lacking a head or having the head reduced
2 : lacking a governing head or chief
wrong on # 1 and # 2 !!!! right to not answer the census !!! acephalous translation = TRANSVERSE CAB FAN CLUB !!!
I figured out why I keep bothering to try and set you straight. My fiance says it's because I'm so good with infants.
-Hank
hold it right there !! i am not an infant i am 7 years old remember ???? or did you forget ???
[My fiance says it's because I'm so good with infants.]
Hmmm, I think she's trying to hint something .... :-)
i have got 7 years on you !!
I don't think she is (yet). We want to get married first. We've both been around a few lately, she's got a month-old cousin that I put to sleep, she was scared I'd drop her when I had to walk 50' and up 3 steps to put her in the bassinet.
On the other hand, we discuss baby names every time we take a trip, even in the car Saturday with my parents, one of which immediately jumped to conclusions.
Hard to come up with decent 'M' names....(Michael and Michelle are NOT options) ANyway, 2 more years before it's a priority issue.
-Hank
[Hard to come up with decent 'M' names....(Michael and Michelle are NOT options)]
For a girl, Marcy and Morgan would be excellent choices, as you could pay homage to the subway in the process. Yes, I know Myrtle also would do, but giving a kid that name should qualify as child abuse.
A boy would be a lot tougher, if you had to stick with the letter M. Morris is the best I can think of, though you'd have to assume the "Park."
Well, Meiora works nicely for a girl (of course, that's one of my wife's names)...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
rmember i m seven year s older than you !! you are still a baby !!
i am not giving them NOTHING !!
You already said the same thing over and over and over again. Enough is enough, you just doi want you want and stop crying about things. Nobody is going to pay attention to your post anymore, I know I will not unless they have to do with transit. By the way are you a registered voter, or is that a violation of your privacy also, they may need your SSI number, name and address and birthday.
If someone is really paranoid about what people know about them, they should check out this site:
http://privacy.net/analyze/
Just going online gives other people a lot of information about who you are and where you are.
Why do you even argue with the guy. You said there are some threads you don;t read. His should be one. He seems either bitter or that someone owes him something. By the way could this guy be our old friend Willie? I haven't heard from him in a long time. At any rate, ignore him.
HEY MAN I AM FROM NEW YORK CITY !! i love new york i was born a true ""YANKEE"" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so what if today i live somewhere else NEW YORK CITY will always be home !!!!!!
come on man lets all go down to the bar ( ON THE SUBWAY ) dont drive and drink !! AND HAVE A COLD BEER !!
by the way dont answer the census !!
Drinking on the subway is illegal, even beverages not containing C2H6.
Salaam: Do you still live in NY or in California? And please don;t tell me you're a Yankee fan.
i prefer the YANKEES over the atlanta braves anytime !!! i still live in the USA !!!
Well then, if your not going send in a form and be counted, it is my duty as a citizen to count you anyway. I'll just list you on my form as living in my house (I can pretend I just sealed you up in a root cellar). Because I know you aren't sending in a form, I can't rest assured that the count will be accurate. The only differance will be that good ole' New Jersey will get +1 population and some more federal $, but I'm not complaining. (It might even help get that camden-glassboro line built). So HA!!
thats a $ 500. oo fine !!! they say i will have to pay ONLY $ 100.oo !!!
all census information is inaccurate you wont even backfill those who refuse in your city !!
I'm not objecting to use of the "how many people are there" data for purposes other than apportionment. I am objecting to collecting data on income, occupations, commuting patterns, race - anything other than "how many people live in which areas". Requiring people by law to answer these questions is an invasion of privacy. That the results of such questions are used to distribute federal dollars doesn't justify asking them, and may even be another argument against doing so - becasuse we shouldn't be promoting the setting of one group against another in a competition for who can grab the biggest slice of pie.
Concerning the requirement for "actual enumeration", clearly the word "actual" was not intended to mean "as distinguished from a statistically calculated one", since the authors of the Constitution had no acquaintance with such sampling techniques. Rather, the phrase is used in distinction to the arbitrary assignments of house seats to the various States for the first Congress provided for in the same section of Constitutional text.
I wrote in big felt red pen """DROP DEAD "" when the ENUMERATORS i will turn the WATER HOSE
on them until they go away and LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE
( public transit will not be added and or improved if you WASTE your time ON THE SENSELESS FORM !! )
Do you vote? Buy anything over the Internet? Drive a vehicle? Own a house? Have a bank account? A credit card? There's more personal data about you in dozens of places, not counting the Feds, who already have a lot of data about all of us courtesy of Social Security. As to race, the states already have classified all of us by something or other. As to census data not having to do with transit, where do you think the Feds figger out the population for transit funding, since that's where a goodly portion of transit funding comes from.
RIGHT !!!!!! the senseless cencus HAS NOTHING O DO WITH MASS TRANSIT & OR FUNDING !!
I do not believe in giving the SENSELESS ( cencus 2000 ) etc..... FREE information and data
about me and or my wife and or family !!
if they have information about me etc... from my VOTING... ( i do that ).. own a 1982 chevrolet wagon
live in a house credit card SOCIAL INSECURITY CARD ..... etc.............
NOW !!!!!!!!! then they the SENSELESS cencus can get that infromation THERE !!!.............
AND leave me !@@@##$^*)&^@!!#$&!! COMPLETELY 100% ALONE !!!!!!!!!
its simple i agree with you transit funding and the SENSELESS CENCUS , nothing in common !!!!
I AM NOT GOING TO MAKE IT EASY FOR THEM !!! I GOT OUT MY BIG RED FELT PEN :
and wrote in BIG letters to them DROP DEAD !!! next the water hose will be used on the SNOOPING
SPYING ENUMERATORS NONE OF THIER DAMMED BUSINESS - LEAVE ME ALONE !!!
At least when they come to fine you or arrest you, we won't have to put up with your indecipherable rantings for a few days.
-Hank
they didnt arrest me in 1990 when i didnt do the SENSELESS CENCUS then didnt fine me either !!
Nope. What you did then when you ignored the CENSUS was cost your state several hundred thousands in federal tax dollars (dollars, mind you, that you have paid into the system), congressional representation, maybe a new school for your kids, additional money for the transportation system in your area, etc. You're actually hurting yourself not filling out the form.
I do believe, however, that they should include a short form with the long form, that way they still get their count from people who don't want to answer all the financial questions. My family got the short form a few days ago, I didn't get a chance to look at it, but I don't recall it even asking for Soc Sec numbers.
BTW, your privacy is violated the minute you're born, when the doctor slaps your naked butt. If you use anything to make a purchase other than cash, your privacy is being invaded just as much as it is with the census. Video rentals, the internet, bank accounts, even those nice discount cards that the supermarket gives you all have a greter degree of 'invasion' than does the census. Ever hear of target advertising? Demographics? Arbitron? Neilsen?
-Hank
There is one person I know who agrees with Dyre Dan and Mr. LA. He says that if Blacks and Latinos are too lazy, nasty, selfish to fill out a lousy form, we shouldn't get worked up about it. They should just get less representation and less money. Unfortunatly, some of us choose to live in communities with lots of Blacks and Hispanics who refuse to fill out the form.
As for white Republicans who object, it is because they are cheating on their taxes.
Perhaps filling out forms should be voluntary, and those who do not should simply not be allowed to vote or receive government benefits. Save social security a bundle.
I'd call that a RIMSHOT.
Peace,
Andee
You didn't read far enough down in this thread yet. I said the exact same thing.
-Hank
You are hurtin a lot people in the community by not doing it. The census is used to see how many members of Congress your state gets, and how much money for education and building purposes. It is your Duty as a American Citizen, no matter what race, creed or religion to do so.
thats the lie they tell before welfare was cut off where i live the past 30 years no improvement at all
even after we voted participated in city hall local government !!! being counted with the senseless census does nothing!!
NOT ANSWERING THE SENSELESS CENSUS does not hurt anybody at all DONT BELIEVE THE HYPE !!
Welfare for those who are ill, unable to work, crippled, etc, can still be had in one form or another. To to receive welfare if you are an able bodied person while the taxpayers have to foot the bill is obscene and counter-productive. Welfare as a way of life has to go and it will for those who can make a contribution to society and do not want to.
who are you to decide who is able to work and who is not ?? one day you might need WELFARE !!!
you never know when it might happen to you !!! then you would be called obscene & counter productive ! ???
TALK ABOUT NOT HAVING A COW MAN !!! please !! take a cold shower and drink a cold beer ! RELAX!
oink !!! oink !!! oink !!!
Those who are not ill, unable to work or crippled can get work. If they don't want to, then they can starve for all I care. I'd rather have the skells on Hart Island than on Manhattan Island or Royal (Long) Island.
pray that it doesnt happen to you as you wish HELL and suffering and PAIN on others that the same
does not come back to you !!! maybe if you are LUCKY maybe you can still ride your high horse and watch others
STARVE TO DEATH !!! for all others dont care about you .ONE DAY you could starve and meet the same fate you wish to become on others less fortunate than you think you will never become !!!!!! ( skells on hart island !!!! ) oink !!! oink !!
HOW DOES IT FEEL ??? BY BOB DYLAN ...... oink !! oink !!
He didn't decide. LEARN TO READ! That's twice you've inferred things that weren't said. He said "Welfare for those who are ill, unable to work, crippled, etc, can still be had in one form or another. To to receive welfare if you are an able bodied person while the taxpayers have to foot the bill is obscene and counter-productive. Welfare as a way of life has to go and it will for those who can make a contribution to society and do not want to." That means if you legitimately CAN'T work (Physical disability, age, temporary medical condition, and my personal fave, mental illness) then you're provided for. If you can walk, talk, and use both hands, you can find a job, or tough shit. It's time to put Darwin to work. There's plenty of jobs for those who seek them. Much as I hated fast food the first time I worked for them, I'll sooner work for minimum wage at McDonalds than live take welfare when I don't need it. It's most definately time to put an end to the lifestyle of 'sit home, collect the money and food stamps, and have another baby with another father who won't be around to support it.'
-Hank
Thanks Hank for making it clear to the guy. I thought I had expressed it clearly but he read into it what he wanted and dismissed me as heartless. Still I don't really know if he is any more out of the dark now then he was when I first posted my message. Still, we try.
what did you make even more unclear ?? !!!
I try. I'm tired of holding my tongue around here. I'm stopped posting outright grammer flames, but when someone can't get a simple concept through their thick skull, or infer something from a post that doesn't even present anything to infer from, the mittens come off.
-Hank :)
you dont have to hold your tounge just CHILL out take a cold shower dink a cold beer RELAX !!
Any person who choses not to answer the census CANNOT be fined or jailed or any thing else. IT IS TOTALLY VOLUNTARY.
Peace,
Andee
Not, it IS mandatory. Minimum $100 fine for NOT participating, $500 for presenting false information.
-Hank
And where did you read this?
Peace,
Andee
the senseless cencus 2000 is not manditory to you or me it is only the imagination of SOME others !!!
nobody is coming after anybody for refusing to co operate - participoate in census 2000 !!!! dont worry !!
the senseless cencus 2000 is not manditory to you or me it is only the imagination of SOME others !!!
nobody is coming after anybody for refusing to co operate - participoate in census 2000 !!!! .. dont worry !!
Title 13 of the United States Code pertains to the census. 13USC §221 refers to penalties. You may find it here http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/13/221.html
-Hank
i refuse to comply !!!
Thank You, I did not know that
peace,
Andee
they aint going to enforce this so why bother mr. eisenstein ?? aint no teeth in that !!!!
Title 13 of the United States Code pertains to the census. 13USC 7§221 refers to penalties. You may find it here http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/13/221.html
-Hank (correction in bold
put a gun to my head i still will refuse !!!
But you may accidently pull the trigger......
-Hank
on a LOW PRESSURE garden hose ???? what ?????
If you couldn't figure that out, you're even dumber than we give you credit for.
-Hank
they arent going to go after anybody its not like a DRUG BUST or something !!!
My previous statements stand. Just because they don't catch you is no reason to disregard the law. And you're dumber than we give you credit for.
-Hank
WHAT LAW ?? requires me to give up our privacy ??? free informtion ?? no way ???
This:
(passages marked (#, +, %,*) are changed by the noted amendments below. I trust I don't have to post a copyright disclosure, as the Constitution is in the public domain; not to mention law.)
Article I, Section 2.
The House of Representatives shall be composed of members chosen every
second year by the people of the several states, and the electors in each state shall have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the state legislature.
No person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the age of twenty five years, and been seven years a citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an inhabitant of that state in which he shall be chosen.
#Representatives and +direct taxes+ shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, %three fifths of all other Persons.%# The actual Enumeration shall be made within three years after the first meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent term of ten years, in such manner as they shall by law direct. The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty thousand, but each state shall have at least one Representative; and until such enumeration shall be made, the state of New Hampshire shall be entitled to chuse three, Massachusetts eight, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations one, Connecticut five, New York six, New Jersey four, Pennsylvania eight, Delaware one, Maryland six, Virginia ten, North Carolina five, South
Carolina five, and Georgia three.
When vacancies happen in the Representation from any state, the executive authority thereof shall issue writs of election to fill such vacancies.
The House of Representatives shall choose their speaker and other officers; and shall have the sole power of impeachment.
#Changed by Amendment 14, Section 1 and 2:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being *twenty-one years of age*,
and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for
participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state.
%Amendment 15
Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
+Amendment 16
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
*Changed by Amendment 26
Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States, who are 18 years of age or older, to vote, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state on account of age.
Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
Other changes, which I have not marked, were made by the 19th Amendment (to simplify, define references to 'men' as meaning all lawful citizens of the United States)
The 15th Amendment is enforced by the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
Enforced by, among other things:
Title 13 of the United States Code pertains to the census. 13USC 7§221 refers to penalties. You may find it here http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/13/221.html
-Hank
>>>...dumber than we give you credit for.<<<
What's this WE crap? You don't speak for me!
Peace,
Andee
speak for yourself mr HANK !! where did you get this we crap ????? remember the railfan window
gives you the best view !!!1
The view of a railfan window is one's opinion. You enjoy the railfan window, and that's your thing. Others do too. I and many others believe the railfan window to be dull and tiring (why stand when you can sit?), so you should also speak for yourself!
ok then take a seat in your TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB equiooed subway cars and become 100% silent !!
DONT ANSWER THE CENSUS - i did not !!!! oink !!! oink !!!
I made a neutral, rational response. You respond hostilly. Another one of these transgressions and our cease fire will be terminated.
hey man what am i supposed to do ??? now i was accused of running after 13 year old girls ???
only because i asked were there any ............. WOMEN SUB TALKERS ???? ......!!!!!!!!!!
i dont know how NEUTRAL i am supposed to be after some of these SUBTALKERS FLAMMED me !!
anyway !!!! what would you have done ??????????
Until you reneged on your half of the deal, I posted nothing against you, your flames should have been directed at them!
you didnt see the filthy flamage after i asked are there any women subtalkers ???
thats what i was talking about !!! go and see them !!!
Keep the flames down, guys, else I'll be forced to declare Pigs kosher and roast him on a spit for Salaamallah's consumption :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
please dont do that mr anon-e-mouse !!!
i was trying to shoot down the two and or so posts that FLAMMED me after i asked about WOMEN SUBTALKERS !!
unfortunately mr "" pig "" misunderstood that i was out to get him !!! WRONG !!!!!!!!
now with 100% wrong info he lights up like a 10 alam fire !!! but pork aint kosher so no wonder !!!
I do not eat any pork products !!!
You admitted a day or so ago that you had NO IDEA what a 'flame' was. SO stop accusing people of doing so to you if you don't know what you're talking about.
-Hank
when did i say that ?? dont almost all of you throw ""flame"" at me all the time ?? right mr hank ?
A noble response, Anon - however
Muslims always refrain from consuming pork, and pork is NEVER Kosher.
Wayne
like Earl Shieb the auto body painter said once RRRRIIIIGGGGHHTTTT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
( RIGHT ) !!!!!!!!
Oh I know, I'm Jewish and would never eat pork either - on the other hand, under certain obscure provisions in Talmudic law it IS possible for pork to be declared kosher (something about if it is the only way to save someone's life, etc.). Hence my comment about "declaring it kosher" even though it's not :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nononono. Pork is never kosher. With three exceptions, all of Jewish law is suspended for the purpose of saving life. So if you're dying of starvation with no kosher food available and you notice a pig (or Pigs) wandering by, please eat it.
What are the three exceptions?
One is that one should never lose faith in god, but what are the other two?
In no particular order, adultery (and other sexual misconduct), idolatry, and killing others. (That's right. If somebody threatens to kill Reuven if he doesn't kill Shimon, the law is that Reuven should not kill Shimon, even if he gets killed as a result.)
Losing faith is not on the list, although I don't see how losing faith could possibly save a life. (Acting as though you've lost faith could potentially save a life, and that's where idolatry comes in.)
Obviously your mind fails to understand the concept of chronology. Your first harsh response to any of my messages predates any of the flames against you in the Women of Subtalk thread. You are the one who started it. YOU ALWAYS ARE!
WRONG DINOSAUR BREATH ( i mean pig breath ) ....................... oink !! oink !!
No, I am not wrong, I will not hurl insults, that is just the truth.
AGREED !! the same here he truth and nothing else !!!
No I don't. 'We' refers to the person I'm pointing these posts out to, as representative of the current failings of the US education system. (which is, in my opinion, directly related to the non-involvement of parents in the education process) It was a bit of a surprise to discover that Salaam was _not_ a recent graduate.
-Hank
NO !!!!!! it is not manditory !!! I HAVE NEVER FILLED OUT ANY SENSELESS CENCUS FORM !!!
back in 1990 not only did i refuse but i told them so !!! in BIG RED LETTERS - DROP DEAD !!!!!
AND turned a water hose on the census enumerators twice as i did in 1980 1990 and i will in 2000 !!!
DONT BELIEVE THE LIE ABOUT THE CENCUS BEING THE LAW AND A $ 100.oo FINE !!!
false information ???? DONT GIVE THEM NO INFORMATION !!!!
and who do you know Mr. Eisenstein is going to fine you and ENFORCE THIS HOW AND BY WHO ??
if ANYONE was to be arrested fined or summoned to court it would have been me 1980 , 1990 , 2000 !!!!
in your next post how will the SENSELESS CENCUS prove you gave them false information ???
by saying that YOU OWE THEM FREE INFORMATION ON YOURSELF ????
and then invading your privacy right ??? DONT BE A FOOL !!!!!!!!!!!
PUBLIC RAIL TRANSIT YES OR NO HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY CENCUS !!!!
tell subwaysurf he has nothing to worry about DONT ANSWER THE CENSUS !!! ....
Yes there is a law with fines, take my word for it. In America, you are required to obey the lay, pay taxes, get drafted, serve on an jury, and answer the census. That's about it.
No, they don't tend to actually fine people. Once again, I strongly encourage everyone living OUTSIDE New York City NOT to answer the census. If you do, those Black Helicopters might get you.
But if you live in New York City, answer the damn thing, or enumerators will show up at your house and bug the heck out of you (and earn good money doing it).
dont answer the cencus in new york or anywhere else !! my relatives in queens never do !!!
i am sure at least one black helicopter exhists !! i see ONE every once in a while
i didnt register for the draft was kicked out of jury because i oppose the death penality didnt answer any cencus
paid some taxes lived in new york michigan georgia and other states toured other transit rail systems !!!
my family members will not answer the damn thing at all no matter how much you insist !!!
i will turn a water hose on them again and get away with it like i did in 1980 1990 2000 !!!!
nobody will be fined for reusing to answer the cencus in any form !! take a cold shower drink a beer lighten up !!!
THE LOS ANGELES RED LINE SUBWAY IS OPENING UP A NEW STATION NEAR UNIVERSAL CITY
IN NORTH HOLLYWOOD and the senseless census will not be there !!! dont answer the damn form !!!
Do the planet a favor, and rock a Coke machine to get a freebie.
-Hank
Fight nicely, guys.
My sister (in Tulsa) told me that the most popular morning DJ in the city was complaining about the long form. I told her to phone in and say that her brother from New York encourages Oklahomans to avoid being counted.
rocking coke machines is illegal thats not answering the cencus protects my privacy !!!
Not answering the census is ALSO illegal. Just because you don't believe you'll get caught is no reason to violate the law. Ignorance is no excuse, even in your case.
-Hank
oink !! oink !!
Perhaps its time to stop responding to census 2000 posts. When the results come in, I'll let you know.
My forecast for NYC's population -- 8.2 million, up from a census 7.3 million in 1990, but probably an actual 7.9+ million.
they can do this without privacy invasion !! like they still do now !!!
AND THEN TELL US ABOUT PUBLIC TRANSIT WILL BE IMPROVED ???
They do it now based on data from the 1990 census.
-Hank
100 % failure !!!
Thank you for sharing you school grades with us.
-Hank
hank !!! you didnt finish high school ??? GO GET YOUR GED !!!
I graduated over 6 years ago. You need to go back to third grade to learn how to spell and structure sentences. Not to mention proper use of punctuation.
-Hank
SalaamAllah: We do you bother even answering Hank and Eugenius' insults? They are idiots. I have never seen you insult anyone. You are a million times better than them. Just ignore them.
You've never seen him insult anyone? Are you reading the same posts I am?
I'm not aiming to insult him anyway, I'm just trying to reason with him. But the more finite I make my arguement, the more rediculous the response. He reads a post, then replies to something that was never said!
-Hank
corporate greed privatization etc it is not working ridiculous respsonse ??? i answered everything you said !!
you made no finite arguments of any substance at all !!
Can you tell me what finite means without looking it up?
-Hank
thats my point i may somewhat answer E train mr pig other than that outshine and outclass them 100 %
thank you i agree with you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOW, what a well thought out and presented argument.
-Hank
ok here it is again oink !! oink !!
MR HANK EISENSTEIN my dear sir ;......................
please !! have you READ the new york times lately on the senseless useless census lately ??
i do believe sir that the 1940 census helped put JAPANESE AMERICANS into concentration and relocation
camps during WORLD WAR 2 ???
AMERICANS of japanese decent were BETRAYED and totally LIED TO !!! CENCUS 1940 ...... !!!!!!!
like that hand jive about how the census helps to expand and inprove MASS RAIL TRANSPORTATION !!!!
if you TRUST GOVERNMENT 100% fine with me .......
BUT PLEASE !! i dont have to believe in the hype the B.S. about how i must co-operate with SENSELESS 2000 !!
ONE FREE VIDIEO OF THE DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER says i am right 100% about all of this !!!! oink ! oink !!
wHAT ARE YOU afraid OF??:?:??
His own shadow.
-Hank :)
"DONT GIVE THEM NO INFORMATION !!!!"
All right I will! I hope you do the same, but then again, I hope you get no government money and subsequently suffer.
not for you to decide one way or another !!
NO !!!!!! it is not manditory !!! I HAVE NEVER FILLED OUT ANY SENSELESS CENCUS FORM !!!
back in 1990 not only did i refuse but i told them so !!! in BIG RED LETTERS - DROP DEAD !!!!!
AND turned a water hose on the census enumerators twice as i did in 1980 1990 and i will in 2000 !!!
DONT BELIEVE THE LIE ABOUT THE CENCUS BEING THE LAW AND A $ 100.oo FINE !!!
false information ???? DONT GIVE THEM NO INFORMATION !!!!
and who do you know Mr. Eisenstein is going to fine you and ENFORCE THIS HOW AND BY WHO ??
if ANYONE was to be arrested fined or summoned to court it would have been me 1980 , 1990 , 2000 !!!!
in your next post how will the SENSELESS CENCUS prove you gave them false information ???
by saying that YOU OWE THEM FREE INFORMATION ON YOURSELF ????
and then invading your privacy right ??? DONT BE A FOOL !!!!!!!!!!!
PUBLIC RAIL TRANSIT YES OR NO HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY CENCUS !!!!
tell subwaysurf he has nothing to worry about DONT ANSWER THE CENSUS !!! ....
Yes there is a law with fines, take my word for it. In America, you are required to obey the lay, pay taxes, get drafted, serve on an jury, and answer the census. That's about it.
No, they don't tend to actually fine people. Once again, I strongly encourage everyone living OUTSIDE New York City NOT to answer the census. If you do, those Black Helicopters might get you.
But if you live in New York City, answer the damn thing, or enumerators will show up at your house and bug the heck out of you (and earn good money doing it).
dont answer the cencus in new york or anywhere else !! my relatives in queens never do !!!
i am sure at least one black helicopter exhists !! i see ONE every once in a while
i didnt register for the draft was kicked out of jury because i oppose the death penality didnt answer any cencus
paid some taxes lived in new york michigan georgia and other states toured other transit rail systems !!!
my family members will not answer the damn thing at all no matter how much you insist !!!
i will turn a water hose on them again and get away with it like i did in 1980 1990 2000 !!!!
nobody will be fined for reusing to answer the cencus in any form !! take a cold shower drink a beer lighten up !!!
THE LOS ANGELES RED LINE SUBWAY IS OPENING UP A NEW STATION NEAR UNIVERSAL CITY
IN NORTH HOLLYWOOD and the senseless census will not be there !!! dont answer the damn form !!!
Do the planet a favor, and rock a Coke machine to get a freebie.
-Hank
Fight nicely, guys.
My sister (in Tulsa) told me that the most popular morning DJ in the city was complaining about the long form. I told her to phone in and say that her brother from New York encourages Oklahomans to avoid being counted.
rocking coke machines is illegal thats not answering the cencus protects my privacy !!!
Not answering the census is ALSO illegal. Just because you don't believe you'll get caught is no reason to violate the law. Ignorance is no excuse, even in your case.
-Hank
oink !! oink !!
Perhaps its time to stop responding to census 2000 posts. When the results come in, I'll let you know.
My forecast for NYC's population -- 8.2 million, up from a census 7.3 million in 1990, but probably an actual 7.9+ million.
they can do this without privacy invasion !! like they still do now !!!
AND THEN TELL US ABOUT PUBLIC TRANSIT WILL BE IMPROVED ???
They do it now based on data from the 1990 census.
-Hank
100 % failure !!!
Thank you for sharing you school grades with us.
-Hank
hank !!! you didnt finish high school ??? GO GET YOUR GED !!!
I graduated over 6 years ago. You need to go back to third grade to learn how to spell and structure sentences. Not to mention proper use of punctuation.
-Hank
SalaamAllah: We do you bother even answering Hank and Eugenius' insults? They are idiots. I have never seen you insult anyone. You are a million times better than them. Just ignore them.
You've never seen him insult anyone? Are you reading the same posts I am?
I'm not aiming to insult him anyway, I'm just trying to reason with him. But the more finite I make my arguement, the more rediculous the response. He reads a post, then replies to something that was never said!
-Hank
corporate greed privatization etc it is not working ridiculous respsonse ??? i answered everything you said !!
you made no finite arguments of any substance at all !!
Can you tell me what finite means without looking it up?
-Hank
thats my point i may somewhat answer E train mr pig other than that outshine and outclass them 100 %
thank you i agree with you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOW, what a well thought out and presented argument.
-Hank
ok here it is again oink !! oink !!
MR HANK EISENSTEIN my dear sir ;......................
please !! have you READ the new york times lately on the senseless useless census lately ??
i do believe sir that the 1940 census helped put JAPANESE AMERICANS into concentration and relocation
camps during WORLD WAR 2 ???
AMERICANS of japanese decent were BETRAYED and totally LIED TO !!! CENCUS 1940 ...... !!!!!!!
like that hand jive about how the census helps to expand and inprove MASS RAIL TRANSPORTATION !!!!
if you TRUST GOVERNMENT 100% fine with me .......
BUT PLEASE !! i dont have to believe in the hype the B.S. about how i must co-operate with SENSELESS 2000 !!
ONE FREE VIDIEO OF THE DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER says i am right 100% about all of this !!!! oink ! oink !!
wHAT ARE YOU afraid OF??:?:??
His own shadow.
-Hank :)
"DONT GIVE THEM NO INFORMATION !!!!"
All right I will! I hope you do the same, but then again, I hope you get no government money and subsequently suffer.
not for you to decide one way or another !!
[Not, it IS mandatory. Minimum $100 fine for NOT participating, $500 for presenting false information.]
In actual fact, there's no enforcement. Which is at it should be. People should have the sense to realize that answering is in everyone's best interest.
it is in everybodys best interest how ??? what are you smoking ??? who would you use to enforce
the $ 100 and $ 500 fines ??? and how would you FORCE PERSONS TO PAY THIS ???
finally EVERYBODY KNOW S there is ZERO enforcement !!! so what is your point ???
tHE SAME CONSTITUTION AS THE 13TH AMENDENT, hOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF THEY REPEAL IT ALONG WITH THE 14TH AND 15TH?AND GO BACK TO THE DAYS PRIOR TO 1865
Even if you absolutely refuse to cooperate, the Census still might gather some information on you. IIRC, Census workers will speak to the neighbors of non-cooperating people and will try to get as much information as possible; if that fails, they'll extrapolate information for your household based on your neighborhood's general characteristics.
Sounds like you know the drill, Peter.
I said a year ago that the census ads, instead of saying that we need you to fill in your forms to get counted, should have said:
"If you fill in the form, your information gets combined up with everyone in your area and then is locked away for 72 years. But if you don't, census officials will keep visiting your house until you answer all the questions in person."
I also thought the census lottery was a good idea -- one dollar for every Amercian, $270 million. I would have cost considerable more than that to buy all the free publicity that would have gotten. The census bureau thought that was too tacky. They have to understand than civic minded people WILL FILL IN THE FORM NO MATTER WHAT. We need to capture the 35 percent who are greedy, lazy, and nasty.
to larry and peter !!! I will not give out free iimformation and allow invasion of my privacies !!
it is NONE OF THIER DAMMED BUSINESS my name and phone number etc..... my race and age !!!
look it up in the telephone book write it down etc........ my neighbors wil not co operate either !!!
BUT LEAVE ME 100 % ALONE !!!! when the enumerators counters come the WATER HOSE will
be turned on them !!!! public transit willl not be affected by the SNSELESS CENCUS !!!!!!!!!
[public transit willl not be affected by the SNSELESS CENCUS]
Actually, if enough transit users ignore the census, the government will underestimate transit usage and funding will diminish. Is that what you really want?
I agree with you! You should turn the hose on these people, then they could nail you for assault and then your persistent nuisance will be gone.
I was going to say that because someone where he grew up (assuming he grew up in the US) didn't fill out the CENSUS, his education was extremely lacking. But assault is so much better. Let the fool continue to be ignorant, for it is the fool who loses in the end.
-Hank
I don't think either Hank or Eugenius will ever get a free tape.
i am working on a free audio tape about how the LOS ANGELES red line destroyed business
caused homeless and misery pain and great suffering first i have to get it loaded into casette audio form !!!
then one at a time i will send them out to whoever ............ FREE !!!!!!!!!!!
The homeless were in LA long before the Red Line, Blue Line, Green Line Etc.
Those 3 lines benefit Minorities more then it does the White Middle Classes, since they go thru Afro American, Latino and Immigrant Neighborhoods,
I don't need one, not only do I not get much enjoyment from the RFW, why do I need to watch a video when I'm near the real thing almost every day, if I cared of course.
You turn on a water hose to a Federal Employee, and you are facing a term of up to 5 years in a Fed Max Prison with no Parole
didnt happen in 1980 and 1990 !!! and i did it !!! THEY FINALLY WHENT AWAY AND LEFT ME ALONE !
LOL, its like what I do to pranksters on Oct. 30th. if I was a census taker and I got some ass hole who didnt want to be counted and hosed me down, I'd make it my mission in life to bug him untill he just gave up. I have a tallent for annoying people. I bugged one kid so much in high school he almost had a nervous breakdown. So if I was your census counter guy, I'd cover your windows with forms, stick them in your car, follow you to work, call public attention to your lack of good citizenship, call you at all hours of the night, sick the INS on you etc. if you complained to the police I'd just tell them that I am just doing my job to count a census evaider. At that point the cops would turn around and fine you. So again, HA!
[LOL, its like what I do to pranksters on Oct. 30th. if I was a census taker and I got some ass hole who didnt want to be counted and hosed me down, I'd make it my mission in life to bug him untill he just gave up. I have a tallent for annoying people. I bugged one kid so much in high school he almost had a nervous breakdown. So if I was your census counter guy, I'd cover your windows with forms, stick them in your car, follow you to work, call public attention to your lack of good
citizenship, call you at all hours of the night, sick the INS on you etc. if you complained to the police I'd just tell them that I am
just doing my job to count a census evaider. At that point the cops would turn around and fine you. So again, HA!]
I'm sure that the Census Bureau if not federal law places restrictions on census takers' activities. They're probably not allowed to harrass people, and certainly can't tip off the INS or any other government agency.
save yourself getting mad just go away and leave us alone those of us who do not believe in your SENSELESS
census 2000 and the MYTH about how public transit will improve afterward !!!
i will call the police to anyone i catch putting forms on my windows etc.. stalking is against the law now !!!
many time in the past census takers did harrass me and my family !!
and they do share information with INS POLICE IRS FBI and every other government agency !!!!
please chill out and take your anger someplace else and get some help from head shrink or something !!!
you post like i planned to rob you or something !!! DONT HAVE A COW MAN !!!!!!!
lighten up !! go ride a REDBIRD and do some railfanning and enjoy yourself life is too short !!
my neighbors are not home during the day and will not tell them anything !!!!
They'll come at night then. At least one of your neighbors would do it.
Lots of people are refusing to fill out the census. See
http://www.drudgereport.com/cen.htm
Whine, whine, whine. These questions have been asked for 60 years. Republicans hate having facts available. They especially dislike having a count of how many poor people there are.
I wouldn't mind being one of the families with the long form. The short form should have an option that allows you to trade in for the long form if someone else refuses it.
(Trade in the short form for the long form)
In order to be a reliable sample, it has to be totally random. Remember, the data for whoever gets it will be multiplied by six to estimate the total. So no such swap would work.
you folks can help yourself to your TRANSVERSE CLOSED OFF CAB senseless census dreams and
live in a world of make-believe BUT the wide awake americans will refuse to answer this hogwash get it??
( the senseless census 2000 HOG-wash get it oink !! oink !! oink !! ) he..he.he..he..he..he.......... !!!
Sorry, awake Americans will answer the census.
Anencephalics won't. I guess that pretty much figures out why you won't.
AMERICANS know when they are being lied to and will trow your senseless form into the TRASH oink! oink!!
Don't get yourself upset about this guy, Dan, he lives in California. Great if he doesn't get counted. The census is a war these days. The Governor of Georgia held a press conference, at which he announced that getting counted would reduce the amout of money going to New York's schoolchildren (check out yesterdays Atlanta newspaper if you think I'm exaggerating).
When a New Yorkers isn't filling out a form, then I get mad.
I have friends and family in NEW YORK CITY who do not fill out SENSELESS CENCUS forms !!
GET MAD !!!!!!!!!!!!!
What's the name of the Atlanta paper then?
I found it on a Yahoo search -- I believe it was the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, but I'm not sure. The Times also picked up the story a couple of days ago.
I've had the Article sent to SubForum. You don't have to be a member to read and respond to it!
BAD LINK!
Try this!
My dad thinks they should do away with the census, and just count the people via the tax returns. I've got a better idea. Just count voters. What, only 1000 people voted in your congressional district? Well, say 'bye-bye' to your representation. If you don't vote, you don't deserve any benefits. It would increase turnout, that's for sure.
-Hank
Good Idea Hank, and if you are a naturalized citizen, take away their citizenship don t give them a green card and send them back to their 3rd world dictatorship where they have no rights at all
I VOTE AND GO TO MY CITY MEETINGS !!! thats enough !
but dont ask me to give out personal information free !!!
Have a social security card? A bank account? A credit card? You pay taxes, you're registered to vote?
So what is your major malfunction, numbnuts? I can easily BUY the information on where you live, what you eat, and where you bank.
So can it with the privacy crap, crawl back into the hole where you live, and continue your non-participation in society.
-Hank
no !! i am mot nonparticipating i am going in direction of change your government when it lies on you !!
because you can buy information on what subway car i shot a vidieo thru the railfan window and what time etc...
does not mean i still have to "" LAY DOWN ON THE TRACKS AND TEST THE NEW R-142 ""
it will crush me and killl me dead just like an operational REDBIRD !!!!!!!
being a black american brings much to the table !!! freedom aint free you have to fight forever !!!
GIVING OUT FREE INFORMATION JUST AINT MY CUP OF COFFEE !!!!
if the pased out POSTCARDS asking how many persons live here that would be ONE THING .....
BUT to promise public transit improvements and money coming back to low income needy areas is a lot of B.S. !!!!
WHAT IS A """ NUMBNUTS"" ????? PRIVACY IS NOT CRAP !!! i am not going to make it easy for
them !!! NO MALFUNCTION HERE !!! AT LEAST I KNOW WHAT I WILL REFUSE TO DO AND WHY !!
sorry if this makes you mad cool of with one of my fine railfan vidieos !!! take a cold shower !! drink a beer !!!!
YOU are a NUMBNUTS. You wanna see what I think of you, go rent Full Metal Jacket and see who's a Numbnuts.
-Hank
You can't count tax returns! People who make like under $7000 don't need to file. The poor and many children could never be counted.
However, there are things the Bureau could have done to make this more acceptable to the greedy. I could have done the census lottery, and given those filling out the long form six chances to win instead of one. I believe that the chance for a $270 million payout would have raised that mailback rate more than anything else they could have done.
well then i would still give hem false information !!
well then i would still give them 100% false information
Well then, you would be fined.
False information is a federal offense and should be jailable, that would be a marked improvement in the posting quality of the board.
I'm thinking, if it were a lottery, you'd have to present true info. No other way to collect if you win!
-Hank
poor people low income and children dont count in america anyway at all even when the census is not
being FORCED down our throats by you and some others !!! and to tell us how rail transportation
will be improved if we surrender our privacy is the biggest HOAX of all !!!!!
How many times do you need to be told you've already surrendered it?
-Hank
Hank: You might be on to something, but the lawyers would have a field day dissecting you on that one. It would never get off the ground, but I can see the subtle humor in your remarks even though I think the idea can;t be any worse than some of the others I've heard the past few days.
All in the intent. Although, I do endorse the idea of no representation for non-participants.
-Hank
non representation exhists weither you co operate with the senseless census or not !!!
(Statistical sampling OK, questions are not)
The questions on the long form are THE BASIS for statistical sampling. How do you know which groups are undercounted if you don't identify people by something other than number of?
NONE OF THIER !@@##*(#! BUSINESS !! !!!!!!!
Hey, Salaam, do me and the rest of the taxpayers of this nation a favor then: Don't collect a _PENNY_ in Social Security, Flood Insurance, Medicaid, Medicare, Student Loans, Government Grants, or FDIC money when your bank fails. Don't send your children to any school that recieves public funding. Don't drive on the roads, don't use the internet, don't call an ambulance when a loved one has a heart attack. Don't call the cops when you're mugged in the LA Subway(!) don't call the fire department to put out your house, don't go to the beach or a public pool, don't drink the water, bathe, cook, flush the toilet...in fact, the only thing you are now allowed to do, as a person who DOES NOT LIVE IN THE UNITED STATES is walk around naked and kill small animals for food, just not in a park or in any land that there is any type of legislation to protect. Because you're not a person who lives in the United States. After all, you didn't fill out the census, so you don't count.
-Hank
Why did you include the internet?
no !!!
Government labs did most of the development work. (originally DARPANET. It's been a while, I can't remember what it means.) It was designed to connect the mainframes at colleges, universities, science labs, etc.
-Hank
The original purpose of the internet was a military network that could survive if a majority of it's nodes were destroyed (no centralized server), it was called ARPANet, Advanced Research and Projects Administration Network. ARPA still exists, ARPANet ran from 1969 to 1990. The NSFNet (National Sciences Foundation Network) was founded later in the early 70s, and closed around 1993. The term internet was coined in 1982.
no comment !!!
Hmm. Actually, I'm not sure any data from people who choose to answer can be accurately extrapolated to people who don't. I didn't really say statistical sampling was desirable, just that blocking it because the Constitution specifies an "actual enumeration" is reading something into the phrase that isn't there, considering the context of the phrase.
"Strict constructionist" interpretations of the constitution are always laughable because they either stem from partes with a specific axe to grind, or criminals or seditionists looking to set up their own state and avoid paying taxes, and of course they then proceed to recruit the naive into that cause.
The only thing you accomplish by not filling out the long form is screwing yourself and your neighbors when it comes time to distribute government allocations for services. If you don't mind that, your neighbors do.
Maybe there should be a provision in the law that reads something like this: "I'm not interested in government services. In return for not answering the census, and getting a special rebate on my taxes,I agree that police and firefighters will not come to my house, nor will I be entitled to postal services or emergency medical services. I agree that Iam entirely without legal remedy should I die or suffer material loss due to these waivers."
Would that make you happy?
It might have made him happy -- when he made the post four years ago.
I don't know how he feels about that.
I didn't pay attention to the date on the post. My fault completely.
The congress has passed laws that use the Census for determining benefits to states, such as block grants.
The short form asks basic questions, number of residents in the household, their ages, whether they work, and I forgot the other questions. The long form asks detailed questions, such as annual expenditures for heating, air conditioning, and the much aligned "Does your house have indoor plumbing."
Michael
Washington, DC
Michael
Washington, DC
I thought you have to wait 72 years to get the forms -- the confidentiality period.
Michael
Washington, DC
My friend got the long form for the 1980 census, when he was living in an old 11-room house west of Syracuse. He shut down all but four of the rooms during the winter to save on fuel costs, and his entance into the house when the form arrived was through the bathroom off the kitchen doorway. Wonder how that stat looked multiplied by six?
Someone showed me a long form -- I got the short form too. That long form asks all sorts of questions, just about everything you could imagine except "What is the size of your private parts?"
Some of the questions I felt were digging a little too deep. I think the short form does what the census is intended -- to COUNT HEADS.
The long form has an important purpose.
The data in the long form is used to make all kinds of decisions. In particular, the place of residence, the place of work, travel mode to work, travel time to work, and time you leave for work is the basis for most transportation planning, and most environmental reviews.
On my desk, I have spreadsheets containing how those living in every census tract in the city (about 2000) got to work, how those working in every tract in the city got to work, and how many vehicles those living in every tract in the city have. The latter was used by the Office of Emergency Management to come up with evacuation plans for all kinds of emergencies -- along with disability status (how many would have to be carried out of each area).
The income data is used to determine a poverty rate, and determines funding for all kinds of things. Age data is used to project population by age, and the demand for school seats.
The labor force question is the only reliable indicator at the local level about who works and who doesn't. It's the only reason we know NYers are less likely to be working than the national average. The occupation question is the only reliable source of information about how many people work in each occupation. Businesses submit their employment, which is classified by industry, for a variety of purposes, but that doesn't tell you what the work is that is done. The long form is the only way to estimate the number of people who are self-employed.
I'd say I've used the answers to just about every question at one time or another, except what kind of fuel do you use to heat your house and do you have public water. Then again, in many parts of the U.S. those are important questions for utility and water supply/groundwater protection planning.
Businesses use the data too. It is about the only objective information used in college social science depts.
You may complain that the long form is too long. I lament the "lost questions," such as how many bathrooms does your house have -- an indicator of relative housing quality, and how many stories high is the building you live in, a good proxy for housing types.
I got the long form (in the three Censi I remember, my family has always received a long form) and those commuting questions are a pain for someone in my location with my job, ie living in Staten Island and working as an Extra List TO in the IRT. Made me glad I was on vacation LAST WEEK, so that I could avoid answering the address of the location where I worked most often (anyone know what the mailing address for 242nd St is?), what time I leave for work (depends on where I'm working & what time I need to be there for), how I get to work - pick only one (10 min on the bus, 30 min on the Ferry, and 30 min on the subway to Flatbush or New Lots; 1 hr by car to 241 St for a 6:30 am or earlier report).
Transit operators are like the guy that makes the doughnuts. We don't fit a normal pattern but are important non the less.
It's hard for the bus driver to ride the but to work but important to have them there to drive the rest. God bless the men and women who get up to operate the train or bus to take us to work each day.
Because of unusual circumstances, I filled out the form this year.
We got the long 12 member, 31 question form and I filled it out for four people.
My mom wasn't wiling to divulge her income on the form, even though the government should already know how much they leave her after bleeding out all those taxes.
They don't, because neithr the IRS nor the Census people are allowed to reveal such information.
-Hank
THE IRS IS THE FIRST TO SEE ALL OF THE CENSUS INFORMATION IF YOU ARE FOOLISH
ENOUGH TO FILL IT OUT AND GIVE THEM ALL OF YOUR PERSONAL INFORMATION !!!
thats why i refuse to do it resist refuse !!! DONT ANSWER THE CENSUS 2000 i refuse to !!
B-u-z-z-z-z-z-z-z!! Wrong!!!
The Department of the Census (a sub-department of the Commerce Department) and the IRS (Treasury)are separate. No connection. The Census only goes into high gear every 10 years. (The other 9 they analyze, analyze, analyze.) The IRS is around EVERY YEAR. (Try NOT paying your taxes. They will get you eventually.)
However, don't work, (or receive money for what you do) 'cause SSA and the IRS constantly exchange data. How do you think the IRS knows how much you earned last year?
1. Your employer is required to tell them.
2. SSA knows what you made, too, since Social Security benefits are based on your earnings. They and the IRS are in bed together.
It's enough to make you downright paranoid.
[Did everyone get theirs?
Unfortunately, I received the short form, so I did not have the pleasure of reporting that both I and my wife ride a subway to work. Nor did I have the pain of admitting that I own a car.]
We got the long form. I was glancing through it and noticed the transportation questions. It'll be nice to be able to cast a vote for transit use, so to speak.
Now, what I did not like about the census form (it's probably the same on the short form) were all the racial and ethnicity questions. I was going to give some ridiculous answer, like saying I was Samoan or Alaskan Native, just to do my little part toward screwing up the statistics. But then I read in this week's _New York Press_ that there's a way to answer the racial questions that will lead the Census Bureau to interpret the answer as a "Do Not Care to Respond." You check off "Other" for race and write in "American" as your national origin. If enough people do that, maybe the government would get the point and stop this ridiculous racial pigeonholing.
The race and Hispanic Origin categories are a big issue for the pols. They always like saying there are more of "their people." It is one of the few questions on the short form.
I'd like to see an elimination of the categories. Just ask the question "If you consider yourself a member of one or more social or cultural groups, fill them in here" with room for, say, three. If you don't decide the category, you get a more honest response, albeit a more difficult one to code. Railfan would be at least number three for me.
It is the same on the short form. I'm in an interesting situation. I'm your basic white male. When asked a race question on a form, I usually leave it blank. On the census form, I'm planning to fill in "American" (by the way, I'm glad to see that others are planning to do this).
My wife is Nigerian. Since she doesn't like to be classified as "African-American" (she's not American), she'll probably check the "other" box and fill in "Nigerian".
We're expecting our first child in early April. If the baby comes before April 1, he'll be counted in the census. The census asks you to fill in what race the person considers themself to be.
At the ripe old age of a few days, I'm guessing my child will not have given the issue much thought. Since I'm hoping that this is the beginning of a third generation of railfans in my family, perhaps I'll take Larry's suggestion and fill in "Railfan".
Chuck
What I'd really like to see on the census form is a racial category called "Human."
Yep, basically. However, to be PC, animal right activists would like their pets to be counted as part of the family. They should have something like this.
()Human
()Non-Human
That's so speciesist of you to classify all the animals as one. It should be:
Human ()
Pig ()
Other Animal ()
Just joking you know.
Strangely enough, not one person in this very lengthy and somewhat raucus thread mentioned filling out the short form on the Web.
It's a hidden fact that the Census is available on the Web. They don't admit it on the form, but it's there. It's Web secured, and asks you for the 14 digit number on your form (short only), then has the questions. No muss, no fuss, and easy.
look man !! i aint going to fill out any senseless CENCUS forms not in 1970 1980 1990 or 2000 !!!!
They're coming to take you away, ha, ha.
on the flip side of that 45 record there was a song that said something like this etc...................................
NOW THEY CAME THE OTHER DAY AND THEY TOOK MY BROTHER AWAY TO THE FUNNY FARM....
AND THEY CAME AND GOT MY BROTHER THE OTHER DAY !!! ( music ).......
BUT I KNOW THEY ARE NOT GOING TO COME AND GET ME BECAUSE I AM PERFECTLY NORMAL !!!
HA !!! HA !!!! HA !!! HA !!! HHHHH AAAAA !!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( music )........................
the other side of that 45 record was better !!! was that about you ??? dan lawerence ? ( repeat )........
I KNOW THEY ARENT GOING TO GET ME BECAUSE I AM PERFECTLY NORMAL !!!!....... music ,,,,,
'scuse you? Although I'm not surprised you know the song....
-Hank
they played it on the radio many time (s) you are the one who needs to hear it !!!
since you are the EXPERT in this who as the original artist ???
Yikes! I can't believe how many posts, in how many sub-threads, have developed on this Census thing. I feel a bit responsible, since it was one of my posts that Salaam Allah originally responded to. He may not be the most literate person around, but he is entitled to his opinions, and he apparently is good at what he does (taking videos). Still, the repitition of his essentially off-topic posts on this issue is annoying.
So I want to apologize for two things:
1) for being the immediate cause of Salaam's diatribes, and
2) for being somewhat hypocritical in my critical statements about the census. You see, shortly before I posted here on the subject, I myself took the test to be a census enumerator. The pay is good ($14.00 an hour) and I need the work. I look at it this way: someone is going to do the work anyway, so refusing to participate in it is not going to change anything. Perhaps I was seeking to assuage my ambivalent feelings about doing this by posting the opinions that I did. Perhaps I was also enjoying the (then-)secret irony of it. At any rate, if I wind up doing this job, I will do the job properly and conscientiously; I will also be certain not to become confrontational with anyone who decides for whatever reason not to cooperate.
literate person around ?? now you know as an enumerator dont ring or knock on my door....
and dont bother my neighbors either they wont give you any infoirmation
either !! jsut go away and leave us alone !!! mr dyre dan ....
See, Sane, literate comment by poster, followed immediately by a dumb, pointless comment by salaamallah. It never varies. Say something nice, and boing!!, a sensless reply.
As somebody said many years ago, "This hobby attracts some strange inviduals."
Mark
Stick to trains - you're bette off there...
Isn't it a consequence of this approach that the neighbourhood will be under-represented in democratically elected assemblies? What is the benefit of that to the residents of the neighbourhood? It's difficult logically to complain that government takes no notice of you, if you've tried to convince them that you don't exist......
$14 an hour is good?????
Depends on what you were making before....
-Hank
Advocating for transit and other public improvements while not participating in the census makes you a hypocrite.
They now want you to only do your place of residence on where you spent most of the year at. In otherwords, if you move to a hillbilly college town, this was the first census where you're place of residence for the DECADE.
So, if lived in any city for the last 10 years, philly, pittsburg, Jackson, Macon, and just start attending Penn State, even If i leave the school that semester, the census wants to count me as a lifelong residence of that hicktown. And if i was graduating/transferring/dropping out and moving out of state? That didn't matter. Because even if i lived 1000 miles away, for the next 10 years, i will be counted as living in a transient hick town.
I will also point out the short form is a joke. It doesn't ask me anything. What was the point, the computers are too lazy to get a true accurate reading for statistics? I dont' like the short form.
Plus, thanks to the statistics, whenever someone in Usenet complains how the highways suck and no one gets to work, they all quote a census stat of people's avg commute being 20 minutes. I have only been able to get anywhere in 20minutes twice in my life, and i don't know anyone else who does either. Then I have to reply, no one travelling during ANY rush hour gets anywhere in 20 minutes, and I have to cite who goes to work in under 20 minutes. Wal-mart and target, 250-450 people each. Malls, 1000-4000 depending on size. Restaurants, 60-120 each, strip of five per block, 500, and so on. These people generally don't complain about I-xx being backed up daily, or do they care when you kill a bilion bucks to do work on it. Those numbers really dilute statistics. It's called a very bad sample and irrelevant data. Think about it and use it in your own arguements.
Anyway, long story short, I wish i hadn't filled out mine. Central PA must've had a HUGE surge in population in 2000.
I remember the wording was something like, "Where do you reside most of the year", or Where do you reside more than six months. Maybe it was a combo of both, but it was worded something like that on the form.
:0)
Do you have enough money to contribute to your neighbors so they don't get screwed for things like healthcare and transit?
For every moron in a city who says "Census go away," the government says "OK. We'll give tax money to suburbs to build roads and fund services. The city's population isn't as big as we thought, so they don't need it."
Count sample data (all detailed info like income, race, martial status, housing, etc.) as "sample only".
All persons should be asked only one question on the short form: How many persons live here? That's it.
"this is protection for the the neighborhood like myself wants"
Yourself. maybe, but your neighbors understand that you are screwing them out of services and tax money.
Yes - your neighborhood can lose representation (due to redrawing of districts) tax moneys, service and support for mass transit.
You're bright and passionate, but you hold some very uninformed stereotypes about government in your head. If you want to divorce yourself from everything cool. Don't screw your neighbors. They deserve better.
Just imagine if the 8, MJ, QJ, JJ, H, QB, and NX lines were still here. It would be amazing. A lot more access into Manhattan. From queens in to Brooklyn. One less bus line. (BX 15) It would be great with the new cars. The system would be in better shape cause the city would be more accessible. Faster trips into Brooklyn, or into Manhattan. Have the NX line go from Coney Island along the N line to 179 Street Queens. That would be one hell of a fast way to queens or Manhattan or Coney Island. Rush hour trains would be packed. D, F, Q, B train will be relieved of crowds that come from Coney island into Manhattan. A lot of people would be happy. Especially for people who happen to live in Queens but go to work in Brooklyn. The JJ line would be perfect. It would be more popular then the G line, but since the lines are gone we can only imagine how good these lines would be if they were here.
The Bx55 replaced the #8 train.
I like express trains as much as the next guy, but a nonstop NX from Coney to 59th doesn't make much sense, except for those few who commute from Coney to Manhattan. Makes even less sense until they fix the Manhattan Bridge N tracks, and they are in no hurry to do that...
Admittedly, the NX run from Coney to Manhattan, which burned briefly and brilliantly in '67 or '68, was a boon for railbuffs.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Actually, the Bx15 (local) would still be around. It's the Bx55 (limited) that wouldn't exist if the #8 train were still around.
Also, while the Bx55 started out as a pure train replacement, it acquired the basic BUS route transfer privileges transfer privilege when the MeroCard fare incentives took effect. Its ridership actually FELL due to the MetroCard, because riders suddenly had other options for subway transfers.
(yeah, yeah, subway lines would be cool)
8
This one didn't go into Manhattan. It would only serve a purpose to bring people to the mainlines as opposed to a bus, it would involve a lot of work to improve.
MJ
Also non-Manhattan, see above
QJ
Either end of this route is served, by the J and D. It was a extremely long, route, much of it slow and local. Few needed to travel the whole route.
JJ
Replaced by Z
H
Still exists, signed as S-Rockaway
QB
This is the EXACT SAME TRAIN as the Q! Are you using this as a roundabout way of trying to say that you like double letters?
NX
See Kevin Walsh's post. This route just takes away from the local riders, which is nearly the whole ridership.
The NX would be fast if it had R-32s or slant R-40s assigned to it. Just how fast was the real McCoy during its brief period of existence?
The NX was NOT very fast. The tracks were not in good shape even back in 67. I rode once, and there were maybe 20 people on the train past 59th, all in the front car, at the railfan window. Nobody used it for anything else.
Hello,
Does anybody know if there is specific name for the vertical pole that people on to while riding the subway? I'm talking about the poles that go from floor to ceiling, at least in NYC's subways, not the straps that are positioned over the seats. I'd like to know the word, if one exists, for some writing that I'm doing about the subway. Thanks. --P.
I don't think they do have an official name, except for center pole, front pole, end pole.
I may be wrong on this.
Stanchion is used in "The Story of the Metro". But there is no official word.
I looked up the contract book (the written specification, not the plans) for the R44.
The fixed poles from ceiling to floor, and also poles from the ceiling to fixed attachments on the seats, are "stanchions."
I always thought that it was called a "grabrail"
The grabrail, or grab bar, is the horizontal bar above the seats. As some SubTalkers have pointed out, the vertical poles are called stanchions.
David
On the Redbirds, the poles under the AC units are AC supports, not stanchions.
On the Redbirds, the poles under the AC units are AC supports, not stanchions.
And also conduits to protect the freon lines running down to the
compressor. Here's a neat science trick. Find a redbird with
functional A/C during the cooling season and determine which
pole houses the liquid line and which houses the suction (HHH) line.
My guess would be that the one that's cold to the touch with the "sweat" dripping down it would be the liquid one, and the one that's warm or hot to the touch is the suction line.
Yup....also a good way to see what's wrong with the HVAC when
you get a warm car.
I've heard them referred to as "Standee Poles", and, as previoulsly mentioned, "stanchions".
Wayne
Isn't it the 'stautcion(sp?) pole' or something like that?
I certainly don't hold onto some Pole while riding the subway. I'm sure he'd be very mad!
When were most subway bathrooms closed, and did elevated stations have them too? What stations still have open bathrooms. I'm wondering because in Chicago, absolutely none of our stations have open bathrooms anymore, even busy ones.
The PATCO Stations have them. They are open weekdays (Rush hour only, I think). I have a pic of the men's room sign at Lindenwold.
I think that 36ST(BMNR) have them. I was railfanning down there and saw a young man appeared from one.
3TM
Have not seen a subway bathroom in use since the late 70s
Stillwell Avenue toilets still work.
I'd rather hold on till I get home, though, if things aren't too desperate.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm told the tile that was used in the TMNY restrooms, white ripple tile with black accents, came from the same manufactuer's lot as the NYC subway tile order (1930's?).
Those Stillwell toilets are fit for human beings. They are wretchedly bad, and most of the plumbing is out of whack.
Best to tell your bladder to hang in there!
Jay Street has bathrooms that are open during working hours. And I really never noticed bathrooms there in the past. Is this a new development due to the creation of MetroTech?
Doug aka BMTman
Herald Square has a pair of bathrooms. Kings Highway/Brighton has signed (men, women in official TA style) bathrooms, locked up of course. Flatbush/Nostrand also has them but they're also probably employee only.
>>>Have not seen a subway bathroom in use since the late 70s <<<
The bathrooms at 34th/6th Ave. are fully functional. I use the mens room occasionally and on a scale of 1-10 I'd give it a 6. Also the bathrooms at Rockaway Pkwy on the "L"/canarsie line train work also. BMT man/Doug and I were glad about this on our recent Canarsie
Line tour.
Peace,
Andee
I think there are working bathrooms in the Parsons/Archer station.
Ferdinand Cesarano
We've discussed this at least once before. Some of the terminal points have rest rooms: Main Street, Rockaway Park, Glenwood Avenue,and Stillwell Avenue to name a few. A few other locations also do such as Willets Point Blv.. Hey--does this make the two stops at the end of Flushing line the only place in the system to have facilities in two consecutive stations?
Obviously! The line has to live up to its name. ;-)
"Glenwood Avenue"
?
Make that "Road".
The's no stop at Glenwood on any line that crosses it.
subfan
The restrooms at Jay are temporarily closed for repairs- even the employee restroom.
Rockaway Parkway. Pelham station also has rest rooms. Do any of the other terminal points in the Bronx?
Then you must mean Rockaway Parkway (L)?
Yes. It had at least for a while been listed on the map as Rockaway Parkway/Glenwood Road.
That's when the map had avenues of operation, that ended in 1998.
As far as subway bathrooms, I'm glad for the advent of the unlimited Metrocard.
>>>...and did elevated stations have them too?<<<
ALL NYC stations had public bathrooms, originally.
Peace,
Andee
According to official TA doublespeak all terminal stations and all transfer stations are supposed to have facilities available 24/7.
Real life experience indicates that this is not always the case.
Peace,
Andee
Open Connecting Passages . . .
With the recent thread about closed passages, I will note two that are still open, or have reopened (maybe a FAQ page with open and closed passages might be in order. This question keeps coming up, although not as often as the Manhattan Bridge reroutes!).
There is a connecting passageway, not listed on “The Map”, which connects the entrance to the 50th St. IRT (1, 9 Downtown Only) Station at Paramount Plaza on Broadway, to the 50th St. IND (C, E Uptown Only) Station at 8th Avenue. The passage is outside fare control, under the sidewalk on the north side of 50th St. It also has an branch entrance into the lower level of Paramount Plaza office building. A roller gate secures each end. The passage is open from 7:30 am to 6 pm, Mon-Fri. Informational signs were in traditional TA style fonts and bullets.
The west entrance to the 59th st. N, R station is now open selected hours. This is the entrance that also has a special access to the Plaza Hotel Employees Entrance. When I was there in the morning, the booth was closed, turnstiles fenced off, but access was available to the platforms via a MetroCard driven Iron Maiden.
The passageway between Broadway/50th (1,9) and 8 Av/50th (C,E) is not shown BECAUSE it is in the "free" or unpaid zone.
Only "paid zone" passages are shown, because they reflect transfer opportunities that do not require payment of an additional fare.
[Only "paid zone" passages are shown...]
An important distiction. Thanks for pointing it out. The entrances from Paramount Plaza, as well as the Plaza Hotel entrance, are all outside the fare zone.
>>>...via a MetroCard driven Iron Maiden.<<<
I don't know, maybe we should call then aluminum maidens now. 8-)
Peace,
Andee
(Aluminum maidens)
Sounds like the name of a heavy metal band.
Or a very fancy description of a beer can.
No, that would be a light metal band!
L O L---------Happy St. patricks Day
"I don't know, maybe we should call then aluminum maidens now. 8-)"
I'm sure that would work... If they were made of aluminum.
Here's one.....
Down here in Frillydelphia, a connection between 30th Street Amtrak and 30th Street SEPTA(El/Trolleys) was closed. People who need to travel between either have to go above ground and cross busy 30th Street and the driveways in front of the station. Having a direct line into 30th Street is more convenient than that.
That's the key thing about connecting passages outside fare control -- no stoplights. A fuller underground system in Midtown could shave precious minutes off the commute.
That was a stupid move, to say the least. Many times I've had to dodge
traffic to cross to the station. Particularly hairy when a person has just "seconds" to catch a train at 30th St.
My guess is that SEPTA wants people to use the connection in center city, but that doesn't help if you want Amtk.
Joe C
Supposedly, SEPTA closed it because it became a skell haven and a large number of them stay in the large mezzanine outside fare control.
You can walk from Gateway Plaza, at West End Avenue and Albany Street in Battery Park City all the way to Church and Murray Streets, a good ten or twelve blocks, without going outside and staying out of fare control.
It involves going through the World Financial Center, across the bridge over West Street, through the WTC concourse and alongside the terminal stub for the 'E' train until you reach the full-time token booth for the Chambers Street 'A'/'C' platform (which is actually between Park Place and Murray Street). All of this, of course, requires a tolerance for, and ability to ride, escalators. You may be able to go even further at either end, but I haven't checked yet.
Of course, this doesn't begin to measure up to the long underground walks possible in Montreal and Toronto.
CORRECTIONS:
"You can walk from Gateway Plaza, at SOUTH End Avenue and Albany Street in Battery Park City all the way to Church and CHAMBERS Streets, a good ten or twelve blocks, without going outside and staying out of fare control."
Saturday, Mar 18 and Saturday March 25, the TMNY in Kingston, NY will be performing track and other misc repairs. Yes, you can even breath in steel dust from a subway car other than an R17. Call 914-331-3399 or download directions at http://www.mhrcc.org/tmny/tmnymap.html
Thank you Mark and others who plan on preserving a piece of rail history!
Oh please....
Just kidding. There really is life outside of Branford. Have you attempted to clean the steel dust out of your beloved 6398?
-Stef
It's good that you mention track projects. We expect to have one of our own in April. We'll be calling on our members for help.
-Stef
The ceiling fans were dropped in 1994 to troubleshoot a damper and open fan circuit problem. We just have an extra 9 feet of car to clean. The floor will have to come up first as we are expecting 2 cars from PATCO to arrive later this year and the car has to be service ready.
03/17/2000
Engine Brake,
Two cars from Patco??
Do you mean those ex-"Bridge Cars"?
Bill Newkirk
In regard to the Morris Park Station on the #5 Dyre Avenue Line in the Bronx. I would like to know why this particular station had so many entrances and exits. For example. There was an entrance under the el trestle, then another entrance at the base of the stairs on Woodmansten and Paulding, then the main entance on Esplanade, also by the Co-Op building next to the train station. In other words, when this station was opened up many years ago, I doubt very much that the area was that populated. In Roger Arcara's book (the Old Westchester), it says that the Morris Park station was a huge station (for what? Were there plans for it that never materalized)?
I have wondered the same things.
I live in the area, but I am not sure what you mean about "also by the Co-Op building next to the train station". If you mean the side door in the station house, I think that was only for employees and not for passengers, it seems to go into an area of the station house which is behind a locked door. I think there is a bathroom back there for the station agent, if it is not a bathroom it certainly has tiles that look like bathroom tiles.
1. What is up with Chambers St? If that station was rmodeled, it would be a beautiful "medieval" station... All those passagewys. The entrance is nice as well.
2. Does the Z skip Bowery? The Z that I was on stop at the Bowery.
3. Middle track from Myrtle to EP should be used. How come it is not in passenger service?
3TM
1. Chambers St. was once the terminal for trains coming off both the Williamsburgh and Manhattan Bridge. When it was opened (1913), it was much more important than it is today, hence the size.
2. Both J and Z trains are supposed to skip The Bowery, but they've been stopping there ever since the Willy B closure ended on Sept. 1.
3. Running an express from Myrtle to Eastern Parkway would require a seperate local train. The J/Z line does an adequate job and no need exists for this express service.
The J could be the local, the Z could be the express, and skip-stop service would be between Eastern Pkwy and Jamaica
Then you would have the problem with the people skipped by the Z.
The J and Z are not seperate lines. Both are basically the same route, with different letters only for indicating which stops each one makes during the skip-stop hours.
1) Chambers Street is crumbling into dust. It looks like many million$ will be needed to restore it. There are structural issues; concrete is powdering, steelwork has rusted, columns have sprung etc.
2) Don't know; last time I was on a "J" during rush hour it actually stopped there.
3) They'd need a "K" train for that, preferably running out to Canarsie via the flyover. I agree; the skip-stop is silly with an express track in place but that's just MHO.
Wayne
It would be interesting if the MTA threw everyone a curve and reinstituted K service from Continntal Ave.-Forest Hills to Rockaway Parkway via the 63rd St. tunnel, the Chrystie St. connection, Willie B and the Broadway Junction flyover, instead of coming up with a new B train. Have to change those blue K circles to orange ones, though...
Does ridership of the Canarsie line justify that? Time saved by J/Z riders from Queens by the J/Z"skip stop" service is actually more than the time saved if the train traveled express from Eastern Pkwy.
In a segment on the Discovery Channel program about tunnels, the claim is made that the new 63rd st connection will save commuters millions of hours each year. How?
I can understand how an extra tunnel increases capacity under the East River, but since the tracks connect to existing lines on both ends, how is it going to help? You could reroute the Manhattan bound F train (or its equivalent) but it would still merge back in at Rockefeller Center. You could send the E or the F down Broadway, but I thought nobody wanted to go there anyway.
So the question is: what bottleneck is being eliminated?
Also, what's the point of cutting back the G to Court Square? The new connection is to the express tracks, not the locals. So what does gutting the G accomplish?
Bill
The new 63rd St. connection is to either the express or the local tracks, and with the 53rd St. tunnel being routed directly onto the Queens express tracks, the odds are the new 63rd St. route will run local from 36th St. to Continental Ave., replacing the G.
The net gain of the connection is an additional local service to Manhattan. But the 63rd St. connection may well serve both a local and an express. This might allow further gain by relieving pressure on the two exp. services, there being only 4 stops in common instead of the 8 on the E and F of today. The way I see it, the Queens exps. will be E (via 53rd) and Q (via 63rd, regardless if 6th Av. or Broadway), locals F (via 63rd) and R (via 60th). To make them more attractive, the F and R locals could be run skip-stop from Continental Av. to 36rd St., with both stopping at Roosevelt Av.
Running the F and Q thorugh 63rd St. is possible, but doing that would make things even worse for G train riders south of Court Square than they already are -- instead of being able to transfer to the E or F at 23rd St-Ely Ave., they would only have the E to choose from. Plus Citcorp has bigg corporate officers above both the 23rd-Ely and 53rd Lex station, and the E/F provides an easy connection for couriers or other personnel. They might also object to the loss of 50 percent of their train service.
What you're proposing will never happen. Why implement all the extra switching?
What extra switch? The 63rd street line was meant to be switched to by at least one train. So the second would switch off too, after 36 St. Queens, instead of 53rd and 5th. Advantageous.
Besides, I thought that you were many of the Q Brighton Express fans on this website. A Q train serving residential areas at both its ends might just make the Q expand from a 16/5 to a 16/7 or 18/7. You wouldn't like a triborough express ride from Hillside Av. to Brighton Beach or Coney Island?
Yes, but there would be an additional train merging in with the 53 Street line. The Q would have to merge with the F, just so the F can merge with the E. Or it could merge with the E and avoid the Q altogether. Or the Q could be the express through 53 Street, since it doesn't run at nights, and the F does, it could limit confusion (amazingly).
Travelling west/southbound, the Q would merge with the F to go through the 63rd Street connection. Both would go through 57th-6th (current alignment) or 57th-6th for F and 57th-7th for Q. The F would not re-merge with the E at all. Only the E would run on 53rd St. The only disadvantage of this scheme that I can think of is that the Q would have to merge with the B and D on the 6th av. Exp. tracks. Southbound at rush hour, if I am not mistaken, there are 8 D trains running and 7 B trains. That leaves enough room for a maximum of 12 Q trains (assuming only 27 can go through per hour). Currently, the F has 15 per hour and the E has 12. I suppose this could be switched to E 15 per hour and Q 12 per hour. Four minutes should be enough time to turn the E around at World Trade Center.
Funny, that's exactly the scheme I had in mind, except the skip-stop bit. Only problem is the loss of 53rd Street service.
And when the Q's not running, the B will no longer need to take its place in Queens -- both 57th Street stations will be covered at all times anyway (by the N/R at 7th and by the F at 6th). The B could continue up CPW. Then the C could be eliminated, with the E taking its place in Brooklyn (only when the Q isn't running).
I didn't think of that. That is yet another advantageous point of this scheme. Too bad it's only hypothetical right now.
What gives you the idea that nobody wants to go down Broadway? The BMT Broadway line is currently grossly underserved for the simple reason that the express tracks don't go anywhere at either end. This connection will attach them to the Queens Boulevard line; once the Manhattan Bridge is fully reopened (if that ever happens), they'll connect to the Brooklyn BMT lines. At that point, it will become more practical than ever to run Broadway express service.
Hopefully they will reroute the Q Back to Bdwy over the Manny B
I agree. The "G" helps ease the crowding on what is the most crowded line (according to that same Discovery Channel program), at least as far as local service. In fact, if I'm transferring express to local at say, Queens Plaza, during the evening rush, I'm usually praying for a comfortably patronized "G" as opposed to a jam-packed "R".
Why do you think everyone rides the R? Because it goes someplace useful. G trains CONTRIBUTE to the crowding problems by forcing everyone into the other line, the only one that serves a purpose to the majority of people.
People who use the local stops east of Roosevelt to x-fer to the F at Queens Plaza will be able to avoid the F line altogther by utilizing the new 63rd. St line without any loss in travel time. Those who use local stops west of Roosevelt and desire a much better shot at a seat will also use the new line thru 63rd. That alone should ease the crowding on the F line noticably.
I always thought part the big idea behind the 63rd St Tunnel was LIRR access to Grand Central. Who knows when it will happen, but I imagine that's what they were referring to when they say that it will "save commuters millions of hours each year"...
The 63rd St tunnel was also supposed to feed th Second Avenue Subway, which would have cut the travel time from the Queens Boulevard Line to East Midtown and Lower Manhattan.
I say -- BUILD THE ORIGINAL MTA PLAN -- but with a couple of wrinkles. I like the RPA's idea of branching to the Rutgers Tunnel (if the DeKalb/Rutgers connection is part of it), to allow a shortcut to East Midtown. I also like the connection to the Broad Street line. After initially not liking it, I like the MTA's Canal St flip -- anything to cut Brooklyn's reliance on the Manny B.
The DeKalb Rutgers connection isn't very useful. Better to replace at least one side of the Bridge with a tunnel. And no Canal Street Flip then.
As I recall, all the trucks on the redbirds were replaced in overhauls not more than 15 years ago. Will they be kept as replacements, or stripped for parts? It would be a waste to buy more DC parts, now that the TA is going AC.
Most likly used as spare parts if not interchangable with R62s trucks think R142s will be totally different
They can also use them on B division equipment.
They won't be directly compatible with anything left in the
system once the redbirds are gone. Besides, how many more
spares will the TA need? They have to be stored somewhere.
Look at the pile of D-4 compressors under the Belt.
(Won't be usable for anything else)
How about a lawn ornament?
Seriously, there must be some way to reuse them. Are they that different from the trucks on the R62s?
The trucks on the redbirds were not replaced during overhaul. They were overhauled. Once the redbirds are gone, these trucks will have outlived their usefulness. They are not compatible with R-62/R-62A because if the brake riggings & brake systems. In addition, there have been nearly a dozen found recently with some evidence of metal fatigue. Some may be saved for use on work motors, some traction motors may be salvaged from others but by and large, they are going to be scrapped...
OK. They are not compatible with R62(A) cars. How about B DIvision cars- also non-compatible?
Do you mean putting IRT trucks under cars like the R-68? That would be like a fat guy trying to get into waste 31 slacks.
No it wouldn't. Remember, all the cars are the same track gauge. The loading gauge, that is, the maximum size of the car, is what differs. Basically, changing trucks is like changing shoes. All the guys are size 10, and so are all the shoes, no matter the size of the man. What differs on the trucks is basically only the brake rigging.
-Hank
When I looked at my phone bill i saw that 2 cents from my long distance taxes was for 'NY Metropolitain Transit Authority Tax'. Why do they get money from the phones also?
IIRC there are also surcharges on your electric utility bills, however these are no longer shown separately. The .25 % of the 8.25% sales tax is for the MTA. In addition there is a 17% franchise tax surcharge for corporations doing business in the MTA region -- see NY State form CT 3M/4M. We pay more than 1.50 -- it's just hidden elsewhere.
www.bmt-lines.com
I've been on the road and the rails quite a bit the past few days and have seen E60s in service again on Amtrak. One passed my NJT train on Wednesday headed for NYC (while we were stopped in Linden), the 601 was sitting with its pan raised in the yard just outside Washington Union Station on Saturday, and a different unit was headed towards DC across the Susquehanna River bridge in Maryland (I was headed north on US 40 rather than I-95 at that point since the winds were very strong and I don't like crossing the Tydings bridge under severe wind conditions). I had thought they were all out to pasture, but apparently not. Has anyone else seen them lately?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Usually E60s haul Silver Star/Palm and Crescent trains from NY to Philly. Sometimes E60s go further to DC. Sometimes E60s lead deadhead trains to DC.
Chaohwa
What exactly IS deadheading, anyway?
Deadheads are non-revenue moves of equipment to get it where it is needed. It is cheaper to run a train with only and engineer and "fireman" than with a full crew, and faster--as there are no station stops.
The cheapest way to deadhead is to tack the extra consist, engine and all, onto the end of a revenue train, as the MBTA does.
Does the MBTA do this often? I live on the Framingham-Worcester line and I've only ever seen them do this with a stalled train.
What exactly IS deadheading, anyway?
Deadhead means a train hauls equipment without revenue service.
Chaohwa
HA! You thought the E-60's were dead? NOTHING can kill the E-60's! For the past 4-5 years the E-60's have been folowing me around. Every time I drive past 30th St., I see an E-60. Every time I take Amtrak home, I'll see an E-60 at Penn Station. I even got a wonderful picture out the back of my train (we were stopped for a Hackensack river draw opening) of an E-60 haulled train creeping up behind us at restricted speed. The E-60's are still Amtrak's heavy haul locomotives. The C-C trucks give them more pulling power than the AEM's, but they do not have the speed of the little toasters and so are limited to long distance through trains.
Mike, I'm glad to see them still running, it just seemed to me that I had read somewhere (on this board???? I don't remember) that they were out of service. Hence my surprise when I saw them during the past week.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And just when I was gonna join...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The adress has been change to something else, ask pigs
You already were a member!
It's called Subforum now.
Visit DIRECT at subforum.cjb.net
Anyone know what local shops carry The Tracks Of The New York City Subway (Peter Dougherty)?
I was in the GCT Transit Museum in January and they had it that day, but I didn't have any pocket change at the time.
Of course, when I was in GCT the other day, I had enough money, but they don't carry it anymore...
And Amazon doesn't carry it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Try writing to Peter directly. I believe that his info can be found elsewhere on this site.
True, but it takes a few weeks to send it from Canada, and I, er, um, would like to pay less than $30. I think the Museum had it cheaper...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Also try calling the TA museum in Brooklyn, and see what kind of free stuff you'll get with your order.
And I know folks have bought it directly from him in Canada, but don't have the address handy.
Mr t__:^)
You can order from him directly, he has an email here as well as his own site that is I believe listed on a link here.
I also saw it at the Shoreline Trolley Musuem giftshop but that does not open until APril >G<....
e-mail him at : Brakeman@nycsubway.org
Due to the popularity of heypaul's exploits in the Daily News, Hasbro Toys is going to offer a limited edition run of Heypaul Action Figures. They will be stylized similar to their line of GI Joe figures.
The Heypaul figure will come with a math tutoring kit, brake handle, and ERA membership card.
Pull the string on heypaul and he spouts some lines from his most obnoxious posts from SubTalk.
R-9 Cab is sold separately.
03/17/2000
Doug,
You didn't mention whether or not batteries were included!
Bill Newkirk
Batteries are not necessary.
However, be prepared to connect the heypaul action figure to 600 volts DC to make it work ;-)
B"H
I went to get on a 3 at kingston ave, and there was a 3 further down the tunnel stopped. I took the eastbound 3 and changed to another 3 at utica, which was routed onto the express tracks through atlantic. I heard something over the radio about signals, but I couldn't wuite make it out.
When I got to Wall Street on the Lex line, there was a set of redbirds (didn't get the #'s) BIE. I ended up walking from wall st to fulton and getting on the A, which was *also* backed up.
Suffice to say this mornings commute was a hassle.
-yitz
And I saw an F running on the N/R line.
i heard on my cats whiskers radio, that they did an experimental run of the R-142's in passenger service on the #3 this morning and the all the motors shorted out--- the dead train was shunted onto the special scrapping lay-up track north of atlantic ave-- it was pushed off to the side by a 2 car set of virtual low v's that just happened to be in the vicinity--- this morning's incident may delay regular passenger service of the 142's another 5 or 10 years... hopefully they will see service before the mta begins the conversion from electricity to maglev....
B"H
Can the 142's run on the 3? I thought the 3 was restricted to 9 car sets. Maglev? not bloody likely :o) We'll have affordable mass teleportation before the mta gets around to *thinking* about maglev. Of course, right around then they'll prolly open the 2nd ave line, built to 1940 specs :o)
How does the 3 running 9 car trains affect the ability to test R-142s there? Or even run them for that matter?
I heard that some Mack C-49s had to help push
Peace,
Andee
This morning at about 8:40, I was listening to WNYC while on the J train, and local "Morning Edition" host Mark Hilan came on to read the traffic report.
To my surprise, he said, "We'll start with rail", and then went on to report delays on the 2 and 3 at Franklin Avenue due to "signal problems". Only then did he get to backups on the Van Wyck, or somesuch.
That was great, just what I was asking for. But, if I had known that I was going to have a wish of mine granted, I would have wished for something involving Iris Chacon and a bottle of rum, instead of some lousy transit radio report!
Ferdinand Cesarano
My 3 train went express from Utica to Atlantic. Between Nostrand and Kingston, there were workers on the track. I assume it was a broken rail or something to that effect.........
3TM
Yes, apparently there was a signal problem at Nostrand, probably at the switch where the 2 comes in from Flatbush. I think that they had it clear by 9:00 or so, because 3's were leaving New Lots on or about on schedule.
Jon
Yesterday, I was on the IRT Lexington Avenue Line, and caught
a #5 train of R-33 cars, which are now on the #2 line. What's going on
now? Are the R-26s and R-28s beginning to be scrapped? Are the R-142s
beginning to take over the #2 line?
I would like to know the car numbers of the redbirds which are
assigned to various yards. Which cars belong in which yards? Are the
Redbirds on the IRT Flsuhing Line going to retired the same time as
the R-26s and R-28s, or will they stay until the R-33s retire?
Don't be surprised. Of course most of the R33s are on #2. You still can find several R33 trains on #5. Two R33s are on #6 because two Pelham R62As are sent to #5 for OPTO. These are not related to R142 trains, which are under tests now.
Chaohwa
The R142s haven't entered service yet. Car assignments haven't been modified. If you want a complete breakdown of what yards have Redbirds, here it is:
2, 239th St Yard - R-33s, 8806-9215
4, Mosholu Yard - R-33s, 9216-9305
5, 180th St Yard - R-26, 28, 29s - 7750-7859, 7860-7959, 8688-8805
6, Westchester Yard - R-29, 36s - 8570-8687, 9478-9557*
*9478-9523 are considered World's Fair Cars which have seen frequent service on the 6 for a number of years, while 9524-9557 are mainline cars inteneded for IRT service other than the 7.
7, Corona Yard, R-33S, 36s, 9307-9345, 9558-9769
Take note of the following: at least one pair of R-36s is going to scrap as of now due to fire damage and will not be repaired, 9500-9501.
Occasionally you will see extra R-33 trains on the 5 to fill in the gaps in service on that line. It doesn't mean any of the existing cars on the 5 are going to scrap, they may not always be available. R-33s on the 5 are regulars so don't be surpised if you see them.
2 sets of R-33s are assigned to the 6 in exchange for R-62As assigned to nightly shuttle service which is One Person Train Operation.
When R-142 are available, they will replace existing Redbirds. We don't necessarily have to see a scrapping of an entire car class. Scrapping will depend on the condition of each subway car.
470 Redbirds will remain in service after all R-142s are in service. They will be a combination of the car classes, R-33, R-36, etc. not a single car class.
-Stef
Stef:Thanks for the comprehensive update on the "Birds." The R-33's in paticular seemed to have faired the best of the lot. They are always used to fill in on the other lines as needed. I've yet to see a train of R-26's or 28's turn up on the #2, but you stand a good chance of an riding an R-33 on the 4,5 and 6 in addition,of course to the 2 and 7. Now if we could just send those Silver Bullets back to Japan---.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Thank you for reading. I failed to mention that 9346-9477 were assigned to the 7. With the R142 deliveries at hand, I would expect the car assignements to change as new cars go into service and the old ones head for a scrap line. Let's wait and see.
-Stef
But Larry, why no Redbirds on any of the BMT trains?
The Redbirds are IRT cars designed for the tighter clearances of the original Contract One portions. There are no carbon steel IND/BMT cars left in revenue service. A group of R-30s which were overhauled in the late 80s were painted in the same Redbird red scheme, but these were retired in 1991.
In regaurds to stef's response I was in 207th st yard the other day WF cars 9500 and 9501 are there they are on the scrap tracks but no damage due to fire is evident in fact they look in like thier in pretty decent shape all the electrical to them has been cut off. On the tracks next to them is another line of redbirds from the #2 line IF it is not raining I am goiing to go back tomarrow will take down car #s that are there
the 142 s wont even come close to the LONG LENGTH OF TIME the redbirds served !!!
please report what they do to the 9500 and 9501 !!!!!!
9500 and 9501 will probley be there for a while the last 4 of the yard tracks is used for scrap cars and store work yellow cars some of the scrap cars that are there have been sitting there for 3yrs or better will get a list of other scrap cars that are there to keep you informed They also have at least 8 of the redbirds in the main repair shop having truck work performed will keep you posted
Get a list please!
Thanks,
Stef
Hi people this is the list for 207thST yard on the scrap tracks R36s 9528,9529,940,9541 R33s 8904,8905,8363,8362 last to cars mentioned might be there for repair still had power on and were up front. Next is R30 8528,8483 next is R32s 3935,3934 R44 248,176,132 R62s 1435,1436,1439,1909 and last is 1 rebuilt R44 5319 which currently serve the "A" line which looked like there was a fire. Except for the 2 WF cars 9500,9501 that's it Now for redbirds in the repair shop R33 9022,9023,9188,9189 R29 8746,8747. That is basicly it except for 2 more R30s 8481,8522 which are used for classroom training
Redbird: did they let you in the 207 Yard or you can see by the fence? Also i know you a B/O at Kingsbridge Depot but i want to know if there is GMC-RTS #4179 sitting outside the Depot or Storage Yard?
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
They do not have any RTS buses at 207th st all orions at this time. 4179 sounds familiar it might be at KB I will look for it and let you know. I know it was there a few years ago but lately they have been jocking the older RTS buses around. I am not a B/O I am in maintenance. May I ask what is special about this bus?
Redbird: Why don't you take a few pictures of R62 #1435,#1436,#1439 & #1909 & couple other subway cars so you can send it to David Pirmann & add it on his page. Also im suprise there is more R30 cars in 207st Yard.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
PS: What special with GMC-RTS #4179? well i heard that bus just retired & put it right outside the Depot & i been looking for that bus so i can put it on my GMC-RTS page.
I can get the pictures but they may not be that good for 1 am not a photograper and 2 the cars are close together with cars on other tracks not being able to get the whole car If you can give any suggestions I will be happy to get pictures for you. and you have to leave a mailing address because I have webtv not able to Email pictures
You can always develop them with a service that posts them on the internet.
Grow up get a life stay off the topic if you don't like it
WHAT IS THIS ABOUT? I posted a suggestion on how to post photos, and how do you respond? You need to learn some manners!
In reguards to bus 4179 It will have to wait until monday when I go back to work. If it is still there it's in the storage building if not I'll try to find out where they sent it
What about Cars #9346 to 9477? Are they assigned to the #7?
Nick
That's right.
Chaohwa
Yes they are.
Wayne
the windows look different on the side of the car right ?????
Yes, they are World Fair cars. Therefore, they have large windows on their sides.
Chaohwa
Sorry! I forgot to mention that 9346-9477 were also assigned to the 7. A slight memory lapse. Thank you, Lou Shavell for pointing this out.
My sincerest apologies for leaving this out.......
-Stef
9477 on the 7 had it's window frames replaced. I found it strange that the frames were replaced with the orignal color when they were bluebirds. Nice but it doesn't go with the rest of the car.
03/18/2000
If any Redbirds are to be scrapped,you will hear about it here first!
So 9500-01 are the first Flushing cars to be scrapped. This contract has been intact for many years, that's a very impressive feat. How many other older fleets are intact (unscrapped cars) and be accounted for? (not including newer fleets).
Bill Newkirk
R-26, 28, and 29 series all have excellent records of keeping the fleets intact without any car going to the scrap line, also the 36s until recently, but the R-33s have been plagued with mishaps since the 60s! The R-33: An unlucky car fleet? Go figure that one out....
-Stef
The Triplexes had an impressive record as well. Had it not been for that cataclysmic collision at Stillwell Ave. in 1955, the entire fleet would have survived intact until they were retired. IIRC, 6045 and 6078 were involved. 6045's C section, as well as 6078's A and B sections were damaged beyond repair (it may have been the other way around), and the good C section was attached to the good A and B sections of the other unit.
I was at the Court Square station this morning and noticed something about three signals.
They are all reverse-direction signals.
The strange thing about these signals is that they have the following number plates:
D1-1233
D1-1235
D1-1237
They indicate that they are on the D1 track, while they are actually on the E1 track! What's up with this?
i saw this on the Manhattan Bridge yestrday afternoon about 4:45 p.m. I was on a R40 slant going to brooklyn and the R38 was going to Queens. Is the Q getting R38? Or was it a one time occurance?
Sure it wasn't an R32? R32s are occasionally seen on the D and Q when slants and R68s are not available. R38s stay on the A and C.
Never on the D
I think I have read posts saying they are on the D occasionally.
The posts were wrong. I have been a daily D rider for 5 years and for 10 years I have not seen an R 32 on that line
Here in Chicago last night (that is, Wednesday the 15th), some moron abandoned his car on the tracks of the UP-Northwest commuter line after the height of the evening rush, about 7-ish.
Doesn't sound so odd, does it? Well, to quote Al Jolson, you ain't heard nothing yet. The car was not ACROSS the tracks at a crossing, it was facing ALONG the tracks -- passenger-side tires between the two rails, and driver-side wheels outside them -- and against the flow of trains (facing west on the eastbound track). It was abandoned a good block or two from the nearest grade crossing, at the eastern edge of the Norwood Park station.
Nobody was in the car when our train went past, although the driver may have been arrested and taken away before we got there. The only emergency personnel on scene were a couple of cops and some firefighters -- there's a fire station directly across the street from where the car was abandoned! There were several red flares along the inbound tracks, more to ensure that trains didn't come through than for lighting.
And there was nothing about this incident in the morning papers. Just a routine occurrence for someone to go out for an evening drive on the tracks of one of the busiest commuter rail lines in Chicago?
That's a good one!
Here in New York, we just have occasional "Subway Surfers" trying to "Hang Ten" and getting their heads lobbed off for their acts of brilliance.
Doug aka BMTman
Something like this involving a drunk driver occurred on NJT a while back.
-Hank
Hey, I guess its just as hard to find a parking spot in Chicago as it is in New York.
I have resently accquirerd the site Mertocard.cjb.net from our friend Pigs. The site, that oringaly featured the location of MVM's, will now focus on the metrocard in genral. The site will grand open some time in the near futuor. I'll tell you when later.
Metrocard.cjb.net
A link that works
Metrocard.cjb.net is dead! I actually deleted the redirect URL from CJB.net. If you want it, then you'll have to sign up for it.
already did
What happened to the MVM list?
it's still there, I will find a way to put it into the site. Be on the look out for the regrand opening sometime in late June!
A couple of my co-workers from Staten Island are taking tomorrow off rather than be confined on the ferry with a mass of drunken kids AND adults.
Last year, when it fell on a Wednesday, I had to pick up a couple of friends at the LIRR Long Beach station to go to a shiva call. Drove there early, in time for train watching. After the 4:40 from Penn pulled in and everyone staggered off in the direction of Casey's Park Avenue, a rather grizzled looking man got on the resting train and emerged ten minutes later carrying two huge garbage bags loaded with cans and bottles over his shoulder Santa-Claus style.
When the 5:00 from Penn arrived (fifteen minutes late), the crowd appeared even drunker. Standing by the entrance to the temporary ticket office, I could smell the dried beer as soon as the doors opened. One poor soul was bellowing "Ishn't thish Pashogue?" over and over. My friends reported constant open imbibing and fighting, but no enforcement, the entire trip. There were several near misses and arguments in the parking lots.
P.S: There WAS a drunk check hours later at the Atlantic Beach Bridge toll booth.
Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings!
According to pamphlets distributed on trains this morning, the LIRR will be prohibiting drinking on trains tomorrow.
and Greek Indepedence Day is march 26th, guard your asses!
who saw the discovery channel show on tunnel building ? also does anyone remember a 1940 movie on men building one of the subway tunnels in N.Y.C. they even had the pressure chamber scene in it...this movie was shown manny times in the 60's does anyone remember the title and is it on video ? the discovery channel had some great scenes of subway tunnels,how far is the big water tunnel project in manhattan for drinking water...no mention of out here.
Why do MetroCards have expiration dates?
Probably to ensure that cards don't get reused forever.
However, after the card expires, you have a 1 year grace period to exchange it for an unexpired at any token window, so you don't lose the money on it.
Because the cards do eventually wear out. The MTA would like for you to have a working card at all times. Expiring them ensures that they get replaced.
-Hank
Why is WCW still alive?
I assume there is some database with info on all MCs. I would imagine that they have some sort of serial number to help prevent fraud even if the card's balance is stored directly on the card. Anyway imagine if every MC ever dispensed had to be tracked forever. The database would be full of cards that were used once, lost, etc and the serial numbers would not be infinate even if storage of the database was infinate.
Of course if the cards are only a high-tech piece of paper with a balance scribbled on it and not connected directly to an accounting/tracking database then never mind :)
-- Dave
[Anyway imagine if every MC ever dispensed had to be tracked forever. The database would be full of cards that were used once, lost, etc and the serial numbers would not be infinate even if storage of the
database was infinate.]
Every MC does have a s/n, but only the lost/stolen/bad ones go into the data base, which is called a Negitive List. That list prevents a card so listed from being used in the system. Under very narrow conditions this allows the TA to reimbuse customers after the card is listed because they can see how much money/time was left on a MC AFTER it was killed. (refunds go to LIRR/M-N customers who call in to kill a card because their name is on it, also applies to Sr/Disabled who have their photo & name on the card)
Mr t__:^)
Negative List.. a card can also be negative listed if it is bent and results in a balance below zero. The main computer will void the card.
A customer coming to the booth with a card that when we check it shows that it is negative listed must buy a new card or a token.
What are your opinions (with brief justification) about the best way to manage the subway -- purely private & for-profit, chartered private (accountable to some government authority), public benefit corporation (as it now stands), multiple competing lines (as it was before unification) ? If by government, should it be city, state, federal, or some odd mishmash like the PA? Think about efficiency, cooperation, benefit to commuters, interest to railfans, cost-effectiveness, innovation, keeping political cronies happy, etc.
Similarly, what would be the best way to handle the baltimore-boston transportation corridor: one giant federal system, running all local bus lines, several regionalized systems run by city?
All I know is I don't like NJT, PA, and MTA butting heads with each other and stopping useful work from being done.
No system is any better than the fools who run it. On the other hand, some arrangements make less sense than others. Multiple rail lines going to and from the same places over routes that diverge only sufficiently for avoiding collisions between the trains on the adjacent tracks are tremendously wasteful. See., e.g., the situation they used to have with the gazillion railroads that used to crowd the waterfront on the West side of the Hudson. As for a private railroad being built without any government involvement, can't be done; anything of that magnitude involves the government in some capacity. The real question is whether the government should do it in house or let the job out for bids. On the one hand, government is slothful, wasteful, inept, inefficient, fattening, etc. On the other hand, no one ever wants to see a private business make a profit. On balance, I haven't seen any idea that works better than a privately operated, government regulated monopoly.
As for your complaint about the PA, NJT, and MTA: annex NYC, Westchester, Rockland, and Long Island to New Jersey. Can't do that? Suffer. The only way to keep those clowns from fighting with each other is to have the governors insist that they stop. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much of a political constituency for that.
The Dual Contracts were an attempt at a government - private partership of sorts. However the partners started feuding before the ink was even dry on the contracts. At the time the contracts were signed the economy had been rather stable -- no-one predicted the inflationary spiral that followed WWI. The government thought that subway service would be so profitable that it was willing to give the companies a "preferential" (that is they were allowed to take their profit before the city got its share). The companies were willing to agree to a five cent fare. When the government realized that it wasn't getting its cut, and that raising the fare was politically incorrect, it wanted the companies out of the way -- investor be damned!
The reality was that costs increased exponentially while revenues were fixed. The company preferential was NOT a guaranteed rate of return in the way public utility companies are regulated -- it simply meant that they got first dibs on the profit. No profit -- no preferential. Further complicating matters the city built an "Independent Subway" undercutting its own dual contracts partners in a blatant and successful attempt to drive them out of business. In a 1993 editorial BARRON's wrote: "The fundamental problem of New York as reflected in its subway system, is the pattern of using public funds to lure private investment in fixed structures, which are then regulated into insolvency, and taken over..." I don't think that privatization will work given a political climate that is jealous of corporate profits, demands subsidized service, and demands political control of public services.
In 1923 Gerhard Dahl (BMT Chairman) wrote: "ELIMINATE politics from transit and the people of Greater New York can obtain the best transit service in the world. They may have universal service on a single fare and a comprehensive building program can be devised to provide this progressive, growing community with adequate service in the future. Everything is possible if and when common sense is substituted for politics in dealing with our transit problems"
Since politics cannot be eliminated from transit in New York, private enterprise cannot have a role.
I am however waiting to see how the Hudson Bergen Light Rail line succeeds. It is being built and operated by 21st Century Rail Corp (div of Raytheon) under a Design Build Operate Maintain contract with NJ Transit.
www.bmt-lines.com
I'm just looking for opinions here.
I'm coming close to concluding that all light-rail systems (including monorail) are boondoggles without exception: Created to serve *ROAD* interests, funnel taxpayer money to well-connected contractors, and make mass transit look stupid. [I'm thinking particularly of Hudson-Bergen light rail and the Airtrain.]
They will always be either too small to be useful or too large to be practical.
They will always have poor connections to existing transit, with no free transfers, to discourage people from using them.
They will always have their rights-of-way placed by road planners (for instance, in LA, all the light rail is along the highway).
The fares will always be overpriced so the poor can't afford them and the middleclass won't consider it worthwhile.
Are there any instances of light rail overcoming the obstacles and succeeding? What made it succeed in these interests? (Chicago, San Francisco, and Boston come to mind, do they count?)
Of the new light rail systems in the US, the one I am most familiar with is DART (Dallas, TX) and I consider it a success. DART Light Rail has been in operation since 1996 and ridership has exceeded expectations. They are accelerating expansion plans into Plano and Garland as a result. The system is entirely private or reserved right of way, with a mix of grade separation (elevated, subway) and grade crossings. It did take more than a decade between concept and construction; I don't know if 'road interests' contributed to the delay or not.
Some web sites with information about the system:
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/dallas/index.html
http://www.stonecircle.com/homepages/dcollins/dart2.shtml
http://www.dart.org/home.htm
In Europe, Metro areas that are too small to have a subway system have trams which run on the street or in private ROWs in outlying neighborhoods (where traffic is light), then funnel into subways downtown. That's the way SF's system works. And isn't the green line in Boston Light Rail/subway?
Light rail works if you have real dense neighborhoods (ie. what would be classified as low density in New York City -- two or three family houses and rowhouses) on one end and a real downtown on the other. Not many U.S. cities have this, but Portland and Seattle are trying.
I posted a couple of months ago that the big advantage DART had was the fact that downtown Dallas still had alleys in place in-between the streets. DART commondeered one of the alleys (running right behind the school depository) to route the rail cars through the downtown area, then turned it north following the path of the Central Expressway to the area near Highland Park, a high-priced enclave surrounded by Dallas.
The attitude towards the system was very negative from a lot of quarters when the funding was first approved back in 1980, but the area's traffic has gotten so bad, DART looks pretty good right now, and plans are also underway to build a rail connection from downtown Dallas to Arlington and Fort Worth in the near future.
Portland's MAX light rail system seems to have gotten a good reception.
But, it seems that light rail systems (and more importantly, vehicles) seem to get bigger, and bigger, and more complex. What I think is needed is smaller, simpler equipment, and a less expensive infestructure. And why not a return to the trolley poles that served so well for decades? Are those silly bent arm pantographs and catenary REALLY that much better, and for not much more cost?
It seems the price tag for light rail keeps growing, but wasn't a small price tag the point of light rail in the first place?
(It seems the price tag for light rail keeps growing, but wasn't a small price tag the point of light rail in the first
place?)
You have a point there. The cost of light rail IS out of hand. Didn't they just electrify the whole country in a decade?
Lots of businessmen are wheeler-dealers. Wheeler dealers like to do business with suckers. The biggest sucker is the government. The private sector would never pay what we pay.
If done well light rail does not need to be that expensive.
Federal procurement regulations do drive up the cost though. And the MIS that is needed before you can begin is more expensive yet
But you only use an MIS if you use federal money. If the states funded these things, therte wouldn't be half the paperwork.
That is what San Diego did for the first phase. It worked much better.
It's the OPM factor at work.
I think the light rail in St. Louis is a success story, because the planners in their development of the rail brought the community into the mix. In addition, the light rail serves the airport and the major centers of downtown St. Louis with expansion going into Illnois. So for the money I believe that St. Louis got a great deal.
"Light rail works if you have real dense neighborhoods (ie. what would be classified as low density in New York City -- two or three family houses and rowhouses) on one end and a real downtown on the other. Not many U.S. cities have this, but Portland and Seattle are trying."
Larry, you repeat the "only a few cities in the US can support a successful rail system because you need a real downtown" thing every time the topic of new rail systems comes up. But San Diego and Dallas are classic sun-belt sprawl-towns with a downtown that isn't the dominant job center. I'm pretty sure that St. Louis is a car-centered city and its downtown is also not the biggest work destination in its region. Yet all three systems have growing ridership and are extending their lines.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be setting the hurdle for rail success as either one or both of the following:
*a significant percentage (say, 25% or more) of the entire metro work force commutes by transit.
*a significant portion of city households that can afford automobiles go without one because they don't feel they need one to get around.
I think this is a bit too high a hurdle. By the "giving up cars" test, only New York, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco, and maybe Philadelphia are "real" transit cities. These are the only U.S. cities that have areas where people feel that they can live a full life without owning a car and where significant numbers of people who can afford cars don't own one.
And what is a "real" downtown? Even in New York and Chicago, more people work outside the CBD than in it. The Loop is by far the biggest job center in metro Chicago, but add up two or three outlying job centers (say Woodfield, the I-88 corridor, and Deerfield) and I suspect the numbers start getting a lot closer. I would suspect the same can be said about metro NYC as well.
Let's take one light rail system, Saint Louis:
*projected before completion to carry 12,000 per day (admittedly an intentionally lowball estimate);
*about 30,000 riders/day when it first opened;
*now has over 46,750 commuters a day;
*city has 375,000 residents and metro area has about 2.6 million.
I would consider the system a success. It would seem by your criteria that St Louis' light rail shouldn't be successful.
It's true that the new light rail systems haven't induced many people to give up their cars altogether, and true that capturing a big percentage of CBD commutes in these cities doesn't translate to a big percentage of all metro-area commutes. But thousands of people who were commuting by car have been induced to leave their cars at home, or at least at the park-and-ride lot, when they go to work.
I'm not saying that light rail would work everywhere. Even where downtown is not the major job center, it has to be *a* major job center. A successful light rail system doesn't have to go everywhere, but it does have to go "somewhere," that is, somewhere lots of people want to go. But I think that most of the modern light rail systems do go somewhere.
[Are there any instances of light rail overcoming the obstacles and succeeding?]
MAX in Portland has been quite successful.
scratch los angeles !! the green line dosent even go to the airport !!
VTA Light Rail out here in the South SF Bay area seems to be very successful. There's one trunk line (Guadalupe) which runs at street level in downtown San Jose, then south onto the 87 freeway to Ohlone/Chynoweth where some trains branch off to Almaden, while others continue on Guadalupe to Santa Teresa. On the north end of Guadalupe, Tasman West just opened in December, providing service from Baypointe station north to Mountain View. LRT seems to be very useful for high-tech workers in Downtown San Jose or up in Mountain View who are tired of the rush-hour jams on I-280 or the high price of parking. It's a decent system.
ian
i heard about it once is it near SAN FRANCISCO ??? and do they have a website ??
have you taken any pictures of it ??
The website is http://www.vta.org
Sorry, I haven't taken any pictures, though I have a route map I can scan. We're about 45 minutes (light traffic) outside of San Francisco.
ian
HBLR doesn't fit any of your four "they will always." Judging from the effect on the Bayonne residential market and the Jersey City commercial market in the waterfront area, a bunch of people think it will be very useful. With connections to the PATH at three locations, to NJT trains at Hoboken Terminal, and to buses at a variety of locations, it has extensive connections to existing transit. Except for three or four blocks of Essex Street in Jersey City, it doesn't use the public streets; most of its ROW is on old freight tracks or on new, separate ROW. Lastly, the fare is the same as the NYC Subway. In short, if light rail systemss actually suffer from the shortcomings you list, HBLR doesn't support your position.
As for the JFK people mover, the train to nowhere, it is a good example of the law of unintended consequences. Some morons set up a system to fleece a certain segment of the public so that they could use the money for a certain category of worthwhile projects. (At least they thought they were worthwhile.) It didn't work out that way. No one would let them spend the money. It just sat there. And sat there. And sat there. After a while, it started attracting attention, like rotting garbage attracts flies. People started noticing that all that money was just sitting there doing nothing, and they started thinking about ways to spend it on things other than what it had been originally collected for. The result: a metaphysical extension of the airport down the road to Jamaica and other contortions that limit the utility of what the money is being spent on in order to shoehorn the project into a category it doesn't belong in but which meets the regulatory criteria. None of this has anything to do with intrinsic shortcomings of light rail.
The Los Angeles Blue Line is probably one of the most successful light rail lines in this country, used by more than 50,000 riders on weekdays. The fare is the same as on MTA bus lines, and it runs though working class and minority neighborhoods, so its is completely accessible to the poor. The right-of-way is that of the old Pacific Electric line to Long Beach, and was NOT planned by road interests. It is a vital part of the Los Angeles transit system.
If you are looking for a boondoggle, the Federal interstate highway system is the prime example, built as part of a "defense" network. This is a function that the railroads performed very well during World War II.
By the way, the last time I checked, Chicago does NOT have any light rail. It has heavy rail - rapid transit and commuter lines. The last streetcar line, Wentworth, quit June 22, 1958.
Not at all, people can't take cars on railroads. Railroads are closed and inflexible. And they didn't go as far as roads.
Roads go everywhere, the interstates are part of the comprehensive system, rail will ALWAYS involve transfers and you will ALWAYS need roads.
Denver's light rail line has been a success so far. It'll be interesting to see how the Southwest Corridor pans out.
The big news is the government just signed off on the Southeast Corridor/I-25 expansion project, and it's now ready to go onto the design stage. Construction will begin next year on both projects simultaneously, and is expected to take 7 years to complete. We're talking 19.6 miles of highway, plus there is a 4.5-mile light rail spur which will go to Aurora. Travel along I-25 will be more of a headache than it is now, but something needs to be done. Traffic is approaching gridlock.
While the author does not give his or her age, if that person only knew how streetcars played a major role before they were ultimately replaced by dirty diesel buses. Yes, the two examples are small for the time being, but the author does not mention NJTransit's plan on expanding the Newark subway/light rail system. It is too bad that the light rail fever has yet to come to New York City or even Long Island. We talk constantly about air pollution in the New York metro area, but yet the NYCMTA still wants to buy diesel buses and not even consider either light rail or trolleybuses. Look at what happened to the ill-fated cross-town 42 street trolley.
Streetcar_man referred to my age. As you suspect, I'm a spring chicken and am historically ignorant.
Why did they kill the streetcars? That never made sense to me.
If I remember what I read, the Newark Subway used to be a bit bigger than today -- they closed down a lot of the branches. Will they be expanding it to where it used to be?
Diesel buses. Yikes. Can we start a class-action suit against the MTA for knowingly selling a harmful product?
When bus technology improved after World War II, big time bus manufactures wanted to show public and private transit companies that buses were a "step up" from the old streetcar. I mean buses can go basically down any paved street and don't need rails and overhead wires to operated when needed. Yet we all now know that diesel buses cost more to maintain, just like a regular car. Any vehicle that is electrical has less moving parts, so there is less break down. Look how long they were able to to keep the PCC cars running in Newark. And yes, at one time Newark did have a large streetcar system. That also was killed when the diesel buses made there appearance. If you go to the NJ Transit website, I think you can see what are the expansion plans for the Newark subway.
As streetcar_man indicated, Newark had a very extensive streetcar system at one time. A number of these lines fed into the subway, but there were no other subway lines per se in Newark. (There was one short segment of subway entering the Public Service terminal building that did include a station platform for Kresge's department store, but that doesn't really qualify as a subway line.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Look at what happened to the ill-fated cross-town 42 street trolley."
Thank God (or associated higher power).
In Portland Ore,the light rail system has a fairless square in downtown Portland,which does make it good for shoping as the traffic is as in many cities real bad,and parking is scarce,now the buses have bus only streets in downtown which cut out a lot of parking spaces,and is a pain in the butt as most streets are one way,you wind up circling blocks to find parking spots, but the light rail is a big boost to this part of the country,and is a positive light in the tunnel of traffic woes.
Hey New Yorkers! What is a shillelagh? When I lived there it was the Irish word for a club. Supposedly Irish gatemen on the old open platform el cars all had a shillelagh in their gear.
Today, people seem to think that it is a walking stick or cane. Has the meaning of the word changed since I left the city?
I have an old shillelagh hanging in my closet. And as far as i'm consened it called an shillelagh to me!
The walking stick has many uses, but hard to store in your grip, so a shortened verion would have been usefull.
Has anyone seen the platform markings on the 4, 5 & 6 at Grand Central. There is an area marked "Step Aside" at each door opening. In addition, at the Conductor's position and at the train operator's position there are digital clocks that start at 45 seconds and count down to zero then display negative seconds. All this is part of an effort to speed things up on the Lexington line. The boxes are to remind people to stand aside and let customers off to speed unloading & loading of customers. The clock is to show the crew what their dwell time is, 45 seconds being the optimal time. Comments anyone?
I saw those boxes about 2 months ago. Those clocks are black with red words. Those 45 seconds end really fast!!! Then when they end, it starts telling you how many seconds you are late. I still don't know how those clocks activate and then reset after a train leaves.
There's a light beam at the end of the platform. When the train enters the marked area, the clock starts to tick. Optimum is 45 seconds to open, unload, load, close, and go.
-Hank
they also have the box, painted in orange at uptown Fulton on the 4 and 5. Everytime I have been through both stations, I have seen customers standing in those areas, as if they read "Stand here"
B"H
hahahaha! yep, *every* morning, without fail, i have to basically play linebacker to get through the bozos on the platform who can't read. and, even better, when folks come *running* towards the already over packed train and i have to play wide receiver zigging and zagging...heheh! what fun!
LOL
But they do say that. By telling the silly people where the doors will be, they can now stand right where the doors will open. This ends the problem of being at the back of the crowd, because you didn't know where the door would be.
[Has anyone seen the platform markings on the 4, 5 & 6 at Grand Central. There is an area marked "Step Aside" at each door opening. In addition, at the Conductor's position and at the train operator's position there are digital clocks that start at 45 seconds and count down to zero then display negative seconds. All this is part of an effort to speed things up on the Lexington line. The boxes are to remind people to stand aside and let customers off to speed unloading & loading of customers.]
I don't ride the Lex that much during rush hour, but as far as I can tell those boxes do seem to speed up the process at Grand Central, to a modest degree. They'd be most appreciated at other busy stations.
I know that the MBTA was lent a trio of CLRV streetcars from Toronto, as demonstrator vehicles on their Green Line in the early 1980s; I've seen photos and slides of them running there, both in regular service as well as on a charter where one was joined by a Boeing, a PCC, and the Type 5.
The questions I have about the MBTA and the CLRVs are:
Did the drivers like operating the CLRVs?
And why didn't the MBTA order CLRVs from UTDC after the trails useing the Toronto cars, given that in Toronto they'd proven to be far superior in many (every?) way to the Boeing Vertol LRVs that were/are being a constant source of trouble for the MBTA?
Any other information that you guys can give me about the CLRVs tested in Boston would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks,
-Robert King
I've ridden both the CLRV cars in Toronto as well as the Type-7's in Boston, which the MBTA purchased after the Boeing LRV's, and I must say that the Type-7's are much better cars. The CLRV's are much more similar to a PCC car then the Boston Green Line cars. They are small, non-articulated single units that are more suited to street-running than anything else. The Type-7's and Boeing cars are bigger, articulated, and ride more like a subway car. The MBTA purchased the first round of Type-7's in 1986-88, and recently added another 20 cars in 1997. The '86-88 cars are better than the CLRV's of the early '80's, and the new cars are MUCH nicer. I'm not entirely sure why the MBTA decided against the CLRV's but I would bet it has something to do with the fact that they are a different style of car than what they were looking to run on the Green Line. In the end, the Type-7's turned out to be a much better choice. Now, if they can get those new Type-8's into service...
I believe federal funding and politics were the reason the Boeing LRV was chosen over the CLRV. I don't think Boston or San Francisco really wanted the Boeing product, but got it because they wouldn't have gotten federal funding otherwise. Something about "Buy American". I think Boston was also looking at a european product also.
I've always been under the impression that the LRV was a dismal failure.
The CLRV's were in Boston during the development phase that led to the Type 7's. The SLRV's were already there, exhibiting all the problems that they became infamous for.
Did they test run the CLRV of the ACLRV cars or both in Boston?
In Chicago, didn't the 2000 series cars use chopper controls for the power and the 2200, 2600 and 3200's all use cam controlers?
The 2000's left service before the some of the 6000's and 5-50 series PCC rappid transit cars.
I think the CLRV's are chopper controled, What about the Boeing and the type 7's in Boston?
The Boeing LRV's and the Type-7's both are controled with floor pedals, one power, one brake. The new Type-8's (if they ever manage to get them in service) use a single hand control.
Thanks. I think the PCC cars also had foot pedals in Boston.
Do the Boeing LRV's use solid state, Chopper circuits to provide power to the motors or do they use banks of resistors like the PCC cars, with a drum or cam switches operated by the pedals?
Same question for the type 7 and type 8's
B-u-z-z-z-z-z! Wrong answer.
The Boeings use a joystick controller, the Type 7's have the New York Air Brake 3 pedal control. This has a safety (deadman), brake and power pedal. The CLRV's and the SEPTA K cars also use the same control.
The 7's got pedals after testing and operator preference. However, apparently the T forgot that when the Type 8's were in design, because back to joystick contol.
Go fig.
Huh. I guess I never really took a good look at the Boeing controls. I'll have to check 'em out the next time I'm in the city. Thanks for correcting me.
Your impression about the Boeing LRVs being a dismal failure is quite correct. Apparantly the doors have been a constant source of trouble that wouldn't go away despite a retrofit designed by Boeing. I've also heard horror stories about problems with defective traction motors at the start, climate control system problems, overall poor design and construction.
By contrast, the only big changes made to part of the CLRV fleet, was to change the slightly angled seating to face directly forward (only on the first six cars), and change the window style so that instead of having one big pane in most windows there was a large pane of glass, with two smaller window panes that can be slid open, to increase ventilation. This was a small refit where the extra parts of frame and different sized glass were mounted in the preexisting window frame, after the single large pieces of plate glass were removed. Also, the couplers which allowed the CLRVs to be connected together to form multiple unit trains of up to six cars were removed since they were never used in regular service, except for the time the three cars were being demonstrated in Boston, in order to reduce maintainance costs and improve appearance.
None of these modifactions were necessitated to correct any mechanical problems with the cars, unlike the Boing LRVs which I believe the MBTA has had to make many changes to before their performance and reliability became acceptable.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the MBTA were looking at a DuWag type car from a company like Siemens, in Europe. They've been used by Calgary Transit and the Edmonton Transit System, and they've been shown to be a good vehicle.
-Robert King
salaam--- i received a special message from the director of the bureau of the census relative to your opposition to the census--- he warns that only those who have been counted by the census will be allowed to post on the internet--- he understands your opposition to the census... he has prepared a special short form, which he hopes you will fill out
name .........................
favorite color for a subway car .............
favorite place in a subway car ..............
favorite barnyard animal ..............
favorite transit system ...............
the director hopes that you will fill this out....
i will mail it as a response only to you for you to screen it first !!!! if you dont die laughing first !!!
then all the subtalkers will know i am drop dead serious about this !!!
color worlds fair 33- 36 # 7 flushing line light blue favorite palce in subway car RAIL FAN WINDOW !!!!
favorite barnyard annimal THE CHICKEN ESPECIALLY THE ROOSTER NOT JUST MINE !!!!
favorite transit system NEW YORK CITY ( PATH HATER ) ..................
WWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTT????????????. Salaam what the hell are you talking about? Your making us Californians look like a bunch of kooks. Lighten up some, will you? Some of the guys are starting to take you as a wierdo.
WWWEEELLLLLL !!! ........ well !!! i didnt know you are from CALIFORNIA !!!! ?????
i was born in NEW YORK CITY !!! if you think i am wierd help yourself !!! i cant change you !!!
you already have made up your mind !!! california can sink or swim on her own !!!!!!!!!!
maybe you should CHILL out take a cold shower and drink a cold beer !!!!
or railfan on disneylands monorail in anahiem !!! take it easy on yourself !!!!
SUBTALKERS are a rare breed !!!! go to the santa monica pier during a cool evening !!! man!! those waves !!
What is wrong with you? Why are you trying to get everyone drunk?
pigs are drunk all the time anyway ?? besides !!! CHILL OUT !!!
oink !! oink !! dont answer the census !! oink !! oink !!
INSTEAD RIDE A REDBIRD and look thru the railfan window ENJOY !!! then go home take a cold shower !!
and drink a beer ( now remember dont drink and drive !! its against the law !! )
Considering you don't drink, you shouldn't advocate it. You might get sued for false advertising.
On the other hand, I took your advice last night.
-Hank
HEY MAN !! its allright like i mean if you drink ice tea or my favorite ICE CREAM or
even a good cup of STARBUCKS COFFEE whatever it takes CHILL OUT and COOL off !!
( life is too short ) @ please dont do anything i would not do !!!
So; you don't drink, I shouldn't do anything you wouldn't do; yet you advocate 'drink a beer'. Therefore, you are presenting yourself falsely. Phony.
-Hank
PHONY ??? come on man !! i gav you a way out ..... non alcohol beer ??? how is that phony ??
kosher dogs t the penn station if you can prove this RIGHT UNDER THE PATH TRAINS !!!
Oh, come on, Hank....so what if he doesn't drink but suggests having a cold beer.
I don't drink, never have, but there's plenty of times I'll kid around with fellow drivers after work and say something like "Have a cold Bud" or something like that.
Does that make me a phony? I think not.
Sheesh. As Salaam said, CHILL OUT.
I say LIVE AND LET LIVE.
HANK !! !! you ought to listen to steve hoskins !!!! CHILL OUT "" live and let live " !!!!!!!!!!
Just something about him being a hypocrite. It bugs me. There was a lawsuit a few years ago alleging false advertising fhen they had Ahmad Rahshad(sp?) hawking their beer. As a muslim, it was against his religion and thus his endorsement of the product is illegal, according to the law.
-Hank
Ahmad Rashad? Ahmad Rashad? Ahmad Rashad? What more do you need to know. He's pathetic? Did you see him try to interview Shaq after my Laker creamed your Knicks yesterday? Shaq did everything he could to shine him on, but the Madha didn't have a clue. He'd hawk his hair if it could make him some money.
Not _MY_ Knicks. I, unfortunately, am a Nets fan.
-Hank
Hank: I believe your Nets are up and coming. They have some good young talent and could arrive on the scene in another year or two. Keep the faith.
i am a black man aint no laker fan shaq cant speak up and talk ...........etc ............ ok ??? dont answer the census !!
Shaq is great and so are the Lakers. And Ahmad Rashad is still a big bag on wind.
ok glad you lke him as a BLACK MAN basketball or as i call it BISCUIT BALL is boooring (boring)
to me I used to like the dodger and california angels baseball....
sometimes ucla and usc football & the NFL footbsall is allright . But the NBA seasons ( my opinion )
just sems to last too dammed long !!!! high school football my old high school seems to be better !!
i guess we all have different idieas about sports !!
Ahmad Rashad? Ahmad Rashad? Ahmad Rashad? What more do you need to know? He's pathetic. Did you see him try to interview Shaq after my Laker creamed your Knicks yesterday? Shaq did everything he could to shine him on, but the Madha didn't have a clue. He'd hawk his hair if it could make him some money. I will double post because my punctuation was a little off. Sorry.
Whaddya do, take that cold shower he suggested?? :-)
as long as you CHILL OUT !!! no problem !!!
Let the MTA be your designated driver.
9 out of 10, I'm the DD...
-Hank
DDAGTM. If that doesn't work: GTMADD.
Wayne
F.O.B.W.
Here's a newly proposed plan for 63rd St.
It's scheduled to open 8/2001. At that time, the NYSDOT is closing the Manhattan Bridge (trains only).
They plan on re-opening 2nd Ave as a terminal for the V!
It will run 179th st-2nd ave. The reason for this is they are claiming a car shortage?! (By the way, due to the unproven R-142's, all yards in both divisions are being told to make room to store 20-30 redbirds! I got this from a reliable yardmaster.)
The a'holes wouldn't have said car shortage if they weren't in such a hurry to scrap the R-10's & R-30's!
In order to eliminate the usage of a call-on and 10MPH entrance speeds, plans are in the works to upgrade the mainline switches to #7 frogs. The "temporary" metal wall at the south end of the station will be removed to permit trains to enter the station at 20MPH and not have to approach a block. They will not open the layup tracks entirely, just a "station overrun zone"!!
All of this could happen...then again, maybe not. The plans have NOT, repeat, NOT, been finalized.
David
Closing both sides of the bridge or just 1 side? Do you have any infos about Broadway service?
No way they close both sides to trains. Barring an extreme situation (like imminent structural failure, or even a complete collapse, there will always be at least one set of tracks open. The entire BMT Southern division (which carries nearly 1 million Brooklynites) would collapse.
This plan, like the rest of those who have stated before that they have the "inside scoop" is more likely a product of someone's vivid imagination.
If it would collapse, they wouldn't just close the bridge to trains only. Anyway, they could close both sides. The B could run as a shuttle from Coney Island to 36st, but limited service because of switching delays. The D could run from 205 st. to 34 st on 6 ave. The Q could run on Broadway from C.I. to 21 st. M would terminate at Chambers st all times. N/R service would have to be increased to accomodate west end passengers.
Although the entire bridge can be closed, there would be major service disruptions and cause chaos.
Hey Motor Instructor, will both sides of the bridge be closed, or just the 6 ave. line.
The Montague St. tunnel couldn't handle the amount of rush hour service needed for that plan to work, and the amount of trains that could be operated would be insufficent for the passanger load. Chaos and rioting would quickly follow.
Can't be done. Nope.
You are 100% correct. But the DOT calls the shots on the bridge. If DOT ever wants to close both sides to subway trains, it will be done. "The chaos and rioting would quickly follow", is quite bluntly, not the DOT's problem or concern. The TA will have to deal with the cards which are dealt to them.
I'm sure the DOT is well aware of how badly needed the Manhattan Bridge is for subway service. Barring a catastrophic emergency, I'm sure the DOT wouldn't completely close the bridge.
this is what i think should be done:
Q-71st Forest Hills to Brighton bech-wkdys
F-179th St via 63rd st overnights.
B-some trains to 71st-weekends and holidays/
if 6th ave side closed:
Q-to 71st st exp via brighton,exp wkdys,local nghts and wknds.
M-returns to brighton.
Perhaps they'll close it in the middle of the day like thay did before, split service on the D, Q service up Broadway, B shuttles to Pacific Street......We'll see....
All good things must come to an end. We all know that. In order to stay the best city in the world, we have to move into the future. And as sad as it might sound, the future involves R142's. I'm sure people did had this same reactions when they took the Low-V's. But always rember that even if the Redbirds are gone, there will always be pictures and redbirds that will be saved in transit museums. Some years from now when the R-300's come in people will be shouting "save the manuals!" They will be called that because by that time OPTO will become ATO (automatic train operation). But as another exprestion goes "Time waits for no man"
On another note, who cares if salaamallah doesn't fill out his census? It's not like he's the only person in the US who doesn't! And his state on the railfan window, he is intiled to his opinion. (i myself was horrified when i first saw the little excuse for a hole in the R-62's) But he does have hours of video's document the view outside of one, so we'll never forget how it looked. And i'm sure one can go crazy living in LA, with there bad excuse for a subway system. In other words, he does make some sense.
(P.S. I did fill out my census (short form) because I had nothing better to do)
MY RESPONSE TO YOU IS THIS .....
i am hoping to re visit new york this fall to re shoot the last of the redbirds
i need to shoot the 4 and 6 maybe re shoot the # 2 then i need a far rockway on a clear day !!!
maybe finish out with a N and R with r 38s !! pr slant r 40s
three weeks ago i shot the J & L trains the motormen cleaned the window both sides for me !!!!
then the dyre ave # 5 came out real good !!
when the REDBIRDS are all gone my vidieos will STILL BE HERE !!!!
' mabe trevor logan can put me inside the TRANSVERSE CAB for a railfan shot !!!!
Please don't encourage Train Operators to clean windows. Not only is that not within their job description, but it doesn't paint a realistic picture of the TA.
[Not only is that not within their job description, but it doesn't paint a realistic picture of the TA.]
A train operator makes a nice gesture to a railfan to clean the railfan window and you have a problem with that?
go ahead, butter up to us redbird lovers,
but once the r-142's FAIL and we know they will,
it's one big TOLD YOU SO right back to ya.
If such a group existed in 1982, then the same would be said of R-62s
If in 1959, then the same of the future REDBIRDS!!!!
Give it a rest, it ain't happening, why don't you at least fabricate a system of train eschatology as the ancients did for man in order to comfort fears of death.
Definitions for the rest of us....
Main Entry: es·cha·tol·o·gy
Function: noun
1 : a branch of theology concerned with the final events in the history of the world or of mankind
2 : a belief concerning death, the end of the world, or the ultimate destiny of mankind; specifically : any of various Christian doctrines concerning the Second Coming, the resurrection of the dead, or the Last Judgment
[Definitions for the rest of us....
Main Entry: es·cha·tol·o·gy
Function: noun
1 : a branch of theology concerned with the final events in the history of the world or of mankind
2 : a belief concerning death, the end of the world, or the ultimate destiny of mankind; specifically : any of various Christian doctrines concerning the Second Coming, the resurrection of the dead, or the Last Judgment]
Considering the quality of much of salaamallah's contributions, _scatology_ might be a better term.
hey man SPEAK AMERICAN for me !!
My, we love pulling salaamallah's chain.
thats not speaking AMERICAN !! !!! ( what chains to be pulled ?? )
Gotcha Again!!
NOW !!!! i got you !! gotcha !!!! ( last tag )......
B-u-z-z-z!!! Wrong!!!
Chain jerk # 6.
See, it works.
rrrriiggghhhtttt right you lose !!
You first.
-Hank
the post says give salaam allah a brake !!!!! speak american !!!
now that looks better !! i neve answered any census !! 1980 1990 2000 ... and I never ever will !!!!
and theris no enforcment on that FRAUD !! the $ 100 fine ?? who collects the money ?? who enforces this??
the LAPD NYPD maybe THE LOS ANGELES METRO RAIL TRANSIT POLICE !! maybe the IRS
of whom the CENSUS shares all of your private information with ???
When salaamallah types a post with capital letters at the start of every sentence, puncuation correct, case correct (Upper case when required, lower case when required) and proper syntax used, bells will ring, lights will flash, the sun will rise in the west, animals will speak words, Republicans will agree with Democrats, American television will transmit quality programming, streetcars will run in every city, every elevated that ever existed will reappear, all the subway cars that are beloved by railfans of every age will roam all the subways they inhabited.
In other words, amazing things will happen.
American television will transmit quality programming
I doubt it.
-Hank
Hey Give Salaam some credit. He had it wired about the census of 1940 used to locate and imprison Japanese-Americans, which was a rotten act that should have embarrassed all of us. Sometimes, though, I think the big SAL is just putting us on.
I looked a little further. The Census Bureau only provided data such as 'Many Japanese live on Y Street in San Francisco' No names were disclosed, no information other than the etnic profile of the neighborhood was give. The WRB did the REAL dirty work, and you can thank the almighty FDR for that.
Something such as this would not even become a complete thought before the ACLU starts to rip the eyeballs out of those who propose it (such as the AIDS quarantine of a few years back)
It is precisely abuses such as these that lead to great strides in protecting civil liberties in this country.
-Hank
[When salaamallah types a post with capital letters at the start of every sentence, puncuation correct, case correct (Upper case
when required, lower case when required) and proper syntax used, bells will ring, lights will flash, the sun will rise in the west,
animals will speak words, Republicans will agree with Democrats, American television will transmit quality programming, streetcars will run in every city, every elevated that ever existed will reappear, all the subway cars that are beloved by railfans of every age will roam all the subways they inhabited.]
And it will take less than a year to fix a broken subway escalator.
I did say amazing things would happen. And that's why I said American television will transmi quality programming. The sun will have to rise in the west before that happens. (Newton Minow did state that American Television is a vast wasteland never before encountered by mankind. He said this in 1957, and it hasn't gotten any better in the 43 years since.)
Oddball question: Since escalator comes from the Latin "to go up", what do you call one of those machines that travel downward?
Down escalator is an oxymoron, since what goes up cannot go down.
The Pennsy solved the problem many years ago by labeling the devices as Moving Stairs.
Hey Dan, since you are saying amazing things will happen, let me throw one at you. Newton Minow didn't say it in 1957, he said it in 1961. I know because it was a question last night on "Who Wants to be a Millionaire.-----you know, Is that your final answer. Does Regis bug you like he bugs me?
I can't stand Regis either......
If he bugs you, why do you watch him? I found an excellent solution - several years ago I discovered the "off" button on my set and haven't bothered to locate the "on" button since (except, of course, when it's required to watch a good trolley or other railfan video).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's also two buttons marked CHANNEL, one marked with an up arrow, another with down. So if you program gets on your nerves and makes you want to vomit, then change the channel so another program can get equal oppurtunity to get on your nerves and make you vomit.
You ever try to keep from watching a show that your wife loves? I rest my case again.
That's why we have two sets. If I'm on the computer, she watches Ally McBeal downstairs in the living room; if I want to sleep she watches it upstairs in the bedroom.
And no, I didn't mix up the predicates :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Didn't we discuss my marital status?
And I don't ever intend to get married, I'm sure that people said that when they were seventeen and then reneged, so whatever.
Anon: It's my wife. She loves the show and watches it all the time. I'm usually in the kitchen getting a snack or in the den reading, but I can't get away from hearing that irritating voice saying: "Is that your final answer?" Believe me I give my wife a bad time about it, but my better half and my daughter outvote me 2-1. Ever try to outdo two women when you are only one? I rest my case.
I know exactly what you mean! I've got two daughters (one in Nevada, where I'm visiting right now, the other a senior in college and law student come fall) as well as two sons, but even when it's just my wife and I around the house I'm outvoted 1-1 :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey, I've got a solution for that: pop heypaul's CC tape in a cassette deck and turn the volume way up. I guarantee it'll drown out everything else within 20 feet. My blowtorch of a power amp does that, anyway.
Yes. I especially hate it when Regis is put on smack dab in the middle of TGIF.
Saw the guy from the Brit version this morning. They're WORSE than Regis. He told a story about woman who WET HERSELF in the hotseat; he'll also do all the final answer stuff, tell the guy all the wrong answers in a manner in which you just want to shoot him ('If you had said A, you'd have lost 7000...)
But the best one is where he follows up the 'Final Answer' bit with 'We'll be back after a word from our sponsor!'
I like the show, but the music and 'Final Answer' stuff bug me almost as much as some posts I read here.
-Hank
hank !! you still watch tv?? with all of those exciting new york subways to ride i wouldnt be propped
up in front of some television !!!
The sun will have to rise in the west before that happens.
Depends where you are. It already does now in Panama!
--Mark
NOT!
You may have to travel in a westerly fasion to go from the pacific to the carribian because Panama is mostly horizontal nation
see the counrty and canal below.
Carribian Sea
N
W ============\\============ E
S
Pacific Ocean
but the sun rises in the east.
avid
And the Sea Beach will once again run express to Coney Island.
you are not so perfect peter rosa !!!
03/20/2000
Dan Lawrence,
You failed to mention the building and completion of a FULL Second Avenue subway.
About those negative comments here about Regis Philbin. Maybe he's that way for co-hosting a morning TV show with Kathie Lee Gifford !!
Bill Newkirk
See, amazing things!!
However, I really would prefer the Second Avenue Elevated.
100 % disagree with dan lawerence !!
Of course you disagree, because such a thing will never happen!
why are you so disagreable ???? if i spelled it wrong so what ?? dis a greeable why are you ??
Where did I comment on your spelling? If you don't believe yourself to be such a simpleton, then prove it, rather than posting idle disagreements that in their execution only fortify the statements you wish to reject.
BTW, You were the one who 100% disagreed? Then I should ask YOU why you're disagreeable.
simpelton ?? what ?? you cant even read and or speak AMERICAN !!
WHAT makes your posts so 100% accurate and correct and BTW and myself 100 % wrong and disagreeable ???
of cource pigs ( who belong to the TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB ) and cant speak or read AMERICAN ???
oink ?? oink ?? oink ?? ......
I admit I cannot read or speak American. It is impossible to know THAT WHICH DOES NOT EXIST!
You didn't say anything about the R-68s getting up to 40 mph along CPW.-)
Don't push it, right?
So, you want a brake shoe, a brak handle, or a brake line? From a car, a bus, a truck, a plane, or a forklift? Maybe you want a Jake Brake?
Tell me, what kind of brake would you like? I might be able to help!
-Hank
So, you want a brake shoe, a brake handle, or a brake line? From a car, a bus, a truck, a plane, or a forklift? Maybe you want a Jake Brake?
Tell me, what kind of brake would you like? I might be able to help!
-Hank
that would be the BEST BET brand new REDBIRDS same design as the old !!
only this time STANLESS STEEL like the r 38s !!
Yeah, just what the NYCT needs. A stainless steel 40 year old design subway car.
The railfans in 1936 hated the new-fangeled PCC car. Too new, too complicated. Now, 64 years later, the PCC is a classic treasure.
A PCC running down Market Street in San Fransisco looks good today, not because it has a timeless design, but we've had them around since 1936.
The redbirds were great in their day (and yes, when they came, the fans hated them for displacing the beloved lo-V's), but 30 plus years of hard service has worn them out.
The NYCT is not in the business of pleasing railfans. It's job is to move people. They need modern tools to do the job in 2000, not 3 decade old cars.
old designs lasted the longest !!! the 3 decade old design worked !!
Yeah, and it's beat up, rusting, held together with Bondo, chewing gum and paper clips. You're just taking the total railfan view.
my point is the r142s wont last half as long !!!
Wanna bet?? Just because it's new does not mean it's bad. Unless you have a foolproof crystal ball, how do you know? Your mind is already made up, nothing will change it. Guess what. Better get your railfan window videos now, as someday soon there won't be any.
OPTO is coming, maybe not right away, but eventually. As I said before, the NYCT and every rail transit agency in the world is not in business to make railfans happy. Their mission is to transport people, and the money folks make sure that that's done at the lowest cost available. That means you do the job with the best tools available, not 30 year old cars that have to be maintained in a era of diminishing parts availability.
Do you drive a 1960's automobile? I think not. Try to get parts for a 1962 Ford or Chevy on the retail market. They're not there. For 1960's era autos, you go to the specialty aftermarket, and pay premium prices.
On the rail side, priced mechanical voltage relays for PCC cars lately? You can't get them. So you put a 1990's era solid state regulator in your 1944 PCC.
However, I suspect that no rational arguement will affect you. Your mind is already made up, and it's as flexible as a piece of 120 pound rail.
you lost me when you began your post about this CRUSHPROOF crystal ball ??? what ?????
i havent desided on anything except that quality built subway cars are a thing of the past !!
and that the LONG LIFE OF THE REDBIRDS !!! and other cars of the past PROVE MY AND OTHERS POINT (S) !!!!
by the way older cars do have parts clubs and depending on what kind of corvair or 1965 mustang or 1958 T bird
even old volkswagens you drive all of these classics have parts suppliers here across the U.S.A. and thru
ups fed ex the post office and other catalog services like J.C. WITNEY MUSTANGS ONLY OLDSMOBILE 1960s-1970s ETC...
and all for all of the older automobile collector (s) !!! BUT I THOUGHT YOU WERE SO SMART AND KNEW THIS !!!
And I thought you were a brain-dead ignoramus who flunked elementry school.
Oh, sorry. You are!
-Hank
you must have took my last advise !! take a cold shower drink a cold beer !!!! HANK !!! ( question )............
are you drunk ?? is that why your last post is in such error !! sorry !! remember dont drink and drive !!!
instead ride the subway !!!!!!
03/21/2000
You know if you're strapped for time you can drink that cold beer while taking a cold shower. At least the cold shower won't make the beer turn warm!!
Bill Newkirk
no no !!!! wrong !! take a COLD shower ........................ FIRST !!! ........................then have a COLD beer ...........
NOW I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND !!!!
But the point is that you pay a PREMIUM price for parts for the older cars once they are no longer available from your local auto parts store. Just try getting parts for a '60 Edsel, a '66 Studebaker, a '61 Desoto, or even a '70 Ford Galaxie. Your friendly local auto parts store doesn't carry them. My neighbor in New Jersey recently needed a new ignition switch for his '67 Pontiac Catalina. None of the catalogue houses even listed one; he finally found one in stock at a GM dealer in Oklahoma for $150.00 plus shipping. (The same switch was used in all 1963-1967 GM products. Now he's worried about what will happen if he ever needs one for his '68 GTO - as he learned while researching the one he needed, the 1968 switch is unique to that model year.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
depends on where you shop around guy !! ANYWAY these so called NEW automobile cars and thier PARTS
aint so cheap and are not always in stock when you need them !!
have you priced mercedes parts lately ?? and even volkswagen parts !!! HIGH AS A KITE ON A WINDY DAY !!!!!!!!
sometimes you have to use cross user friendly parts that are used on other division (s) etc...
if you ever worked as a mechanic you know this !! ( and or a junkyard ) .........Until next time Salaam_Allah !!
I've purchased many a part from a junkyard over the years, especially when trying to keep an older car on the road. But now the family fleet consists of '92, '93, '94, and '96 model FoMoCo products for which parts are (1) rarely necessary and (2) readily available. (Heck, when my wife's car ['94 Mustang convertible] fails it does it in grand style - we're due to pick it up this weekend after the engine rebuild. Maybe one of these days she'll learn to pay attention to the temperature gauge.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
change your oil once a month with SINGLE 30 weight oil stp and dura lube etc ONCE A MONTH
change trasnsmission oils & filter once a year !! the differentual oil once a year........
and dont forget your anti freeze change that every times it goes weak !!
steam clean and or wash your engine as i do once every month !! keep you air filter clean
and never let your plugs wires go bad etc......... TUNE UP !! keep that piece of junk running SMOOTH !!!!
i just DROVE a 1982 chevrolet caprice with a 1983 OLDSMOBILE DELTA 88 5.0 y ENGINE ( a small 350 )
all the way from california to NEW YORK city and back
of cource i had to change my oil and anti-freeze at least once !!
I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH PARTS even if i have to order from J. C. WITNEY check them out !!!
NEW CARS COST TOO MUCH TAGS ETC ESPECIALLY IN CALIF..
until next time Salaam_Allah ......
SPEAK ENGLISH!!!
I SPEAK AMERICAN !!!.......
Such a language doesn't exist.
A person who speaks three languages is Trilingual
A person who speaks two languages is Bilingual
A person who speaks one language is American
I said foolproof, not crushproof.
Now a challenge: If you can post using standard English syntax and capitalization for an entire month, all of us in this exchange will refrain from posting a reply that rebukes, makes fun of, causes endless postings.
If you can't, you will promise not to mention Redbirds, R142, video, railfan window in any post made in the year 2000.
You still driving a 40-year-old Dodge? How about a 20-year-old Buick? No? What happened? cost too much to fix? Rusted to dust? C'mon, say it.
Sure, 30-year-old designs worked best. 30 years ago. Wanna buy a Model-A, and drive it next to someone's new Excursion on I-5? I sure as hell don't.
-Hank
all i said is that you can get parts for all of those automobiles (cars) you last posted !!
GEEEEEEE !! why such anger in your last post ??? take it easy on yourself !!! relax with one of
my railfan vidieos !! may i reccomend my flushing line # 7 vidieo for you ????
even you might like it !!!!!
We did it last week but I know many stayed away because of the rain. The tour will be held again this Sunday same time & place (10:30, 63rd Drive by the main booth.)
The tour was GREAT! I must say again and again, The ROW is overgrown. Be aware of this. If you have a hardhat, Bring it. Questions, E-mail me.
NOTE:
Last week, The R was NOT running. The E & F were making local stops in Queens. Take that warning and check out the MTA web site for GO information.
Hope to see you there.
-Mark
And no #7 between Manhattan and Queens this weekend...
F Train not running TO the city, diverted on the G CI bound.
r68a 5007 and its group have r68 signs
The first few R-68As (the first eight or the first ten; I forget) came in with R-68-type side signs (the lettering is smaller than on the "standard" R-68A signs).
David
Back in the early 1990's, Concourse shop maintained the R-68A fleet along with R-68 ars 2500 through 2599. At that time, it might have been necessary to use R-68 sign rolls in R-68A cars due to material shortages. Currently Coney Island has the R-68As along with R-68 cars 2776 and up. Therefore some parts may have crossed the borders - so to speak.
For the next few weekends, the #7 between NY and Queens will again be cancelled because of trackwork.
So, what's going on down there, exactly? The 'Steinway' tunnels seem to be mired in endless construction.
By contrast, the LIRR tunnels seem to be rarely closed for track work, or am I just not aware of it because there's two tunnels and they can reroute?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I believe it is for asbestos abatement.
-- Kirk
I believe it track replacement between Vernon-Jackson and Hunterpoint Aves on the Queens-bound side. It going to be like this for the next 2 weekends.
Very similar to Topps line of sports trading cards, except each card features a different aspect of Paul's illustrious math-tutoring career.
56 cards in all.
Features vital heypaul stats on the back of each card.
next thing ya know BOB SAGET is going
to be flaunting his new line of CORN.
I'm gonna betray my age again, but I remember the line of Batman trading cards in the 60s. I think there were three sets, each with 54 cards, beautifully hand painted. I obsessed with getting at least one card from each set but no matter how much trading I did I never could do it...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I had them, complete ... and then the principal confiscated them!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks to Simon Billis and Rob Morel, our resident U.K. transit buffs, I have just put up a guide to the Isle of Wight Island Line. I included it into the London Transit section because it uses ex-London Underground 1938 tube stock. (And, it's a nice day trip if you're ever in London.)
Thanks again to Simon and Rob for venturing out on such a rainy day to cover the line for www.nycsubway.org.
-Dave
Isn't Isle of Wright Island a matter for the Department of Redundancy Department?
Not if the transit system on the Isle of Wight is called the Island Line.
-Dave
I see. It's not the line on the Isle of Wight Island; it's the Iland Line on the Isle of Wight.
We have more international correspondents than some news bureaus now!
Thanks, guys!
--Mark
Also this month, new photos have been added to the following sections, thanks to Bob Pickering, Stephen Ives, Peter Farrell, Steve Kreisler, Chao-Hwa Chen, Trevor Logan, and myself.
The Brooklyn IRT
IRT West Side Broadway/7th Ave.
Amtrak on Metro-North
Atlanta: MARTA North-South Line
Boston: The Red Line
Boston: The Green Line
BMT 4th Avenue Subway
Newark City Subway: Station By Station
R142
R62
Boston: The Blue Line
Boston: Commuter Rail
Boston: Mattapan-Ashmont Line
Enjoy!
Dave
The R142 description says that B units will only have one motor truck. Assuming 5 car sets (ABBBA), that means 14 motor trucks per train instead of 20, or even the 16 on the R44-46. Saves cash, I guess, but what about power?
Good question. Those stats are from pre-order specifications but I don't know if that's the final configuration or not. Does anyone know for sure? Steve K?
-Dave
Well, unlike some past R-series, these were built from the start for today's slow speeds.
Also, the R142 uses AC traction, with advanced electronic control circuitry. It is supposed to be far more efficient, so perhaps the added efficiency allows for fewer motors to do the same work. Regardless, AC traction is a whole different animal compared to DC, so I think it's hard to draw direct comparisons.
Have I missed something (again)? Have some or all of the system's 3rd rails been changed from 600V DC over to AC?
You have missed something, but not a change in the 3rd rail. The trains will have equipment onboard to change the DC to AC (not an engineer, can't explain this). It seems the big advantage of AC is in the operation of the equipment, not the deliver of the power, so it paid to do it this way (the problems with AC power delivery were also explained in a past thread, but it went over my head).
The specific piece of equipment is called a static inverter. It converts the DC into a variable AC wave. More specific, I can't get without my texts, which I don't have handy.
-Hank
That's the essence of it. Modern diesel locomotives now use AC traction as well. It's always been understood as the theoretical better way, it's just that no one knew how to make it work from a practical standpoint. If they had the subways, and all electric traction, would have been AC from the start.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I read the description differently - 1 motor per truck. Current trucks use 2-300v DC motors. The new trucks will use only 1-600v AC motor. All trucks will be powered and will be identical.
I see your point. If it is one one big motor per truck instead of two small ones, how come the A types have two motors? Is there anyone who knows for sure which interpretation is right?
According to the information on their web site, the Bombardier A cars will have 2 motorized trucks (150hp motor, no mention of how many per truck) and the B cars will have one motorized truck, one non-motorized truck.
-Hank
are all boston subway cars transverse cab equipped ???
Here is the layout of Boston MBTA cabs:
Red Line:
Rapid Transit
1500, 1600 and 1700 series - Full-width cab with small window on upper left side (facing forward) that allows viewing through the cab. (Window size is reduced due to blocking by the Automatic Speed Control retrofit cabinet.)
1800 series - Full-width cab with large window on left side (facing forward) that allows viewing through the cab.
Orange Line
Rapid Transit
Full-width cab with large window on left side (facing forward) that allows viewing through the cab.
Blue Line
Rapid Transit
Full-width cab with large window on the left side (facing forward) that allows viewing through the cab.
Green Line
Light Rail Vehicles (Trolleys)
3400/3500 Series LRVs, as well as 3600/3700 Series Type-7s and 3800 Series Type-8s have good views on the right side of the operator, from the right-front door step well. Same is true with the 3000/3200 Series PCCs used on the Matapan-Ashmont shuttle (operated by the Green Line LRV Division, but on public maps an extension of Red Line service.)
Purple Line
Commuter Rail
Control cars have full-width cabs (nearly always facing inbound to both South and North Stations), with viewing available through tinted interior glass, through the cab.
Pictures of all of these cars are available on the New England Transporation Web Site Roster Page.
when i shoot a vidieo thru this cab will the light of the subway car reflect back ??
or as you said the i have to shoot thru two windows thru a full width cab ??
On all of the Boston trains with full-width cabs, you will be shooting through two windows, and there will be a lot of interior light reflection.
By the way, the MBTA also has one of those archaic "no photography" rules which is randomly enforced. You are encouraged to contact the MBTA Customer Relations (617-222-5216) for a photography permit.
The light will be reflected back in the tunnels for sure.
It comes out decent on outside portions, though.
--Mark
This seems a good place to announce tenitive plans for a SubTalk Field Trip up North ... probally in June ... plan:
- Arrive Saturday for touring of Boston system. The earlier you get there the more time you'll have to ride the various lines. Also we'll NOT try to meet up as a group ... well maybe at night for dinner at Durgen Park or some such place. There are day passes available on-line at $5. Some of us are considering incl. side trips in Boston for the spouse & kids, e.g. Museum of Sicence, Childern's Museum, Swan Boats, etc. ALL available via the "T". Even "Old Ironsides" is just a trolley & bus ride away.
- Sunday rise early for trip to Seashore at Kennebunkport. This we should try to do togather. Then we can all get on the 8th Ave Express twin train set (R-4 & R-7A) or the 3rd Ave Railway Sys trolley or Hi-V ... the latter two don't operate but it'll be nice to say hello to them. They also have a twin train set of el cars from Chicago ... the point is Seashore is much more then just a trolley museum.
Todd & I have been exchanging e-mail. He's going to suggest a couple of good weekends when no special events are going on in the area.
If interested please send a private e-mail. As of today there are four of us interested, one from Denver who will fly in if he can.
BTW, Don't get upset if I don't acknowledge your e-mail right away as for the rest of the week I'll be staying with Mickey & Minney B-)
Mr t
I sure hope they are!
Dave I will be getting those pics to you in a couple of weeks.......
3TM
Also this month, Michael Adler has supplied a new version of our
New York Subway Route Map reflecting the reopening of the C service to Brooklyn and some other minor updates.
Enjoy!
Dave
I am still searching for two things:
1: An actual sign from the front of an old or new D-Train.
2: Photos of a D-Train.
If you have either of these items for sale, or know where I might be able to locate them, please e-mail me at chicken334@aol.com.
Thank you.
This site has tons of photos of D Trains. While there's no way to get a list of "all pictures of D trains" what you can do is go to the Illustrated Car Rosters, and for each of the IND types (R1, R4, R6, R7, R9, etc) click on "captions only" then look for photos identified with "(D)" in the caption.
-Dave
How many tracks are on the following Amtrak lines:
Albany-Buffalo (Empire)
Albany-Montreal
Springfield-New Haven
Also, is the LRC still manufactured?
New Haven to Hartford is single track. I am told that the whole Springfield to New Haven line is single track, with some passing sidings.
By the way, what is an LRC?
Last night while waiting for an uptown 2/3 @ 42nd Street, a #10 train (10 over a green background) passed the station (no passengers). What is a number 10 train?
Thanks.
I might have been an out of service train, I'm not too sure. Kinda strange, I've never seen one. It could've also been a 1 which looked like 10. Which model was it? R-62 or R-29?
It was definitely #10, a number of us on the platform saw the same thing (the number 10 on a green background on the front, back of the train, and about half of the sides of the cars). I'm not familiar with the different train types, but it appeared to be the same as the current 2/3 train cars.
Weird, huh?
Thanks for your reply.
This may be a hunch, but what I'm thinking of is this: The #10 MAY BE another version of the #6 Express. The 11 which was posted by Trevor Logan last week, was another version of the #7 Express. I can see it now the 7-11 line. Not too sure but maybe our web site host Dave Pirmann can help us out. What color was the #10 circle?
R36Gary
It was mentioned earlier in the week that someone else spotted a 10 train along the Bway IRT. I think it is for the 5 Bx thru express. The 10 is in a green circle.......
3TM
Wow, that would be something, a 7-11 Flushing/Times Square IRT. I rarely, if ever, see a train with a different letter or number. I remember seeing Dave's pics of the R-30's, a T train, and a 5 which was a Culver line. But I never see those kinds in person. The latest I've ever been in the subway was about 1 AM this past New Years on the 1 heading from 96th street to Times Square. Never seen something like that though.
"Broadway Jorge" Catayi
St. John's lost lost, our Final Four dream is over R-36 Gary :*(
This was definitely an R-62 or R-62A, only those trains have the extra numbers (Redbirds don't even have 9!).
8=Green, 6 express
10=Green, a branch of the 5
11=Purple, 7 express
12=Red, ?
13=Red, ?
I received a copy of the March 11th 2000, issue of the NY Daily News in today's mail, and what do I find on page 26 but a picture of "heypaul" and his beloved R-9 Cab. I live way out of town and as a result I guess I am the last person on SubTalk to see the article. It really looks good, and should be great publicity for our hobby.
Question for "heypaul",
How come the photographer did not pose you in the cab, and take your picture through the front window?
I haven't seen it.
Me neither. Somebody please scan it so that I could see it. Thanks
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
I don't have a scanner. Perhaps someone else that has the picture can scan it and post it!
hey karl--- i am glad you liked the article---
the photographer shot a whole roll of film--- he took several shots of me sitting in the cab from outside the door of the cab--- i like the big shot that they printed of me standing in front of the cab--- they also printed a shot of the cab with the rest of the bedroom showing--- it looks like a prison cell, not like a bed in the psychiatric ward...
if anyone wants a copy of the article, e-mail me--- i have been told that a couple of people have cut my picture out and put in front of a dart board---
another person has also cut out my picture and is doing something very cruel with it--- this person puts on political programs on television and faces the picture toward the screen and forces me to watch that crap...
i have also cut my picture out, and often talk to it whenever i feel the need to have an intelligent conversation.......
I spoted an uptown Q of R32's at NewKirk this morning at 7:55. The operating motor was 3816.
Yes, and I was on it so what is your point??
You've posted this msg 10 times already, give it a break. The slants do have to go in for service from time to time. Most of the time the Q is all Slants but hey give me a different trainset instead of cancelign a run.
An R32 on the "Q" to the everyday rider is an anomaly. However, it appears that a MINIMUM of 24 Slant R40 have gone to Eastern Division - units #4372-4397 - and R32s are likely filling in.
Wayne
I noticed, the other day, that the stations from 46th street through 33rd street on the 7 train don't use their alternate nicknames anymore, i.e. 46th-Bliss street, 33rd-Rawson street. I kinda like that idea a little better since those names aren't really in use anymore. I wonder if they might do that for the rest of the stations in Queens, with the exception of Willets Point, Shea Stadium, or 103rd street, Corona Plaza.
Well, since I'm from Woodside, I can tell you that from 49 St-43 St is a historical district. Their old street names are used along with their numbered street. About the station names: Not too sure about that but there are still subway conductors that say 40 St-Lowery.
R36Gary
So, they let the old names pass out of use for 70 years, EXCEPT on the subway signage...then, they reinstitute the names on the street signs and remove the names from the subway signs!
Only in NY, kids, only in NY (sorry Cindy Adams)
www.forgotten-ny.com
On the L Line they have R40s,R40Ms, and R42s. I have noticed that some run in 8 car trains and some run in 10 car trains. What is the ratio of 8 car trains to 10 car trains?
There are no 10-car trains on the eastern division of the BMT. You're using too many fingers!
-Hank
At 600 feet, 10-car trains on the L wouldn't fit into the station. The L is almost always set up in eight car (480-foot) train configurations, but never anything more than that.
i have it on good sources, that there is a sinister plot behind the 2000 census--- if you do not return the form they sent you in the mail, you will be visited by agents of the government--- they will ask to inspect your basement, and while doing so, they will place several seed pods by the furnace--- in four months, you will be taken over by an exact copy --- this is the first step in the plot to replace the american public with a heartless and humorless populace--- beware.....
how are you doing out there in brooklyn new york ??? its kind of warm here in pasadena about 60 degrees !!
my answer to the government is NOT WITHOUT VIOLENCE AND BLOODSHEAD !!!
thats why i refuse and didnt answer the census 2000 !!!!!
Thanks Heypaul,
You've explained to me that racial group I couldn't figure out ... "Guamian", "Other Pacific Islander", "Shrubbery" ...
Oh please, you don't need to encourage to encourage that dumbass.
speak for yourself mr dumb_____ !@#%&&&*( you know what you said ) !!!!!!!!!!
anyway what does that have to do with rail systems world wide ????
Newest promotional metroCard goes on sale at 7am 03/27/2000
Stations are NOT grouped
207 to 175---A
168--1,9,A,C
163--A,C
174-175--B,D
Tremont--B,D
182-183--B,D
137--1,9
157--1,9
181 To 215--1,9
138 --4,5
149--2,4,5
170-4
Mt Eden-4
176 to 183--4
149/3av--2,5
jackson to East tremont(177)--2,5
138/3av--6
Brook--6
Cypress-6
E143--6
E149--6
Longwood--6
Hunts Point--6
Whitlock--6
Elder--6
Morrison/Soundview--6
St Lawrence--6
Junction Blvd--7
103--7
111-7
NOTE: I do not know:
1- design(s) of the card
2- wording on the card
as a reminder: The official bulletins do not include a photo of the card(s). We have to wait to see what they look like
Where exactly is the unused Roosevelt Terminal? I will be exploring that area on Sunday........
3Train#2119Mike
Mike, it's down a long passageway at the far end of the mezzanine, outside of fare control IIRC. It's fenced off - it has seen usage as a Transit Police station and other things over the years. I was there a couple of years ago on a TM tour. You won't be able to see anything of the platform area, unfortunately, but you might be able to locate the passageway. Check Brennan's Guide, linked from elsewhere on this site, for a better description.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hmm, I take the IND trains down there, I'm gonna see if I can check it out sometime. This was a line to Rockaway, am I right?
is that where the Q slant R-40s run ????
NO, E, F, G, & R trains run there, & the IRT 7 upstairs on the tresel.
Not today, but they did run on the E and F lines when they were new. And, yes, the Roosevelt Ave. terminal was planned as a terminus for the Winfield Spur which would have linked up to the Myrtle Ave./Central Ave. line leading to the Rockaways.
Wasn't thru service also planned for? Having hundreds of thousands of Central/Rockaway IND riders transfer to already congested trains at Roosevelt Ave. seems silly and impractical. The station today is overburdened with just the Flushing line connection.
It was SUPPOSED to be a line to Rockaway. That never panned out. The IND built many stations, tunnels for proposed lines where they would intersect with built lines to make their jobs easier if these expansions were actually built.
Yes, that was the intent. I don't remember the exact routing but I think the information is elsewhere on this site and/or Joe Korman's site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From my History of the Independent Subway":
Winfield Spur: This was designed to provide through service to the Rockaways from midtown, and also to serve the neighborhoods of Maspeth and Ridgewood. It would have been a two-track line from Roosevelt Avenue to a connection with the proposed Central Avenue line. It would have run as subway to 45th Avenue, elevated to Fresh Pond Road, and again as subway to the connection with the Myrtle/Central Ave line. In anticipation of this line being built, trackways measuring 750 feet along with a completed station with full tile work were built that connect to today's IND Queens Blvd line at Roosevelt Avenue -- Jackson
Heights. The area is now used for storage and maintenance-of-way offices.
--Mark
Correct me if I'm far from the mark. Could this current configuration be connected to the NY & Atlantic freigth line thru Fresh Pond ,Mesbeth , Ridgewood .... Far Rockaway branch with out a lot of tunneling , El erecting and so forth? I'm trying to think of the least disruption to the communities, least expensive, least time consuming and most served. Then I'll run for the Senate.
avid
The IND did have intentions of buying up the LIRR Rockaway Branch for just that use, but deals always fell through until 1950, when a trestle fire over Jamaica bay was enough for the LIRR to "throw in the towel" and sell the line to the NYCTA for a "mere" $8 million. The TA wanted to build the original connection that was planned for in the Second System, but ended up settling for the connection to the Fulton St EL instead, simply because it was cheaper.
--Mark
I think a comparison is due between the two possible connections to the subway system. Something like comparing ;
a)shortest tunneling
b)Potential for expansion
c)shortest time span for service to begin.
d)cost/per service
e)greater number of city residents served as well as travelers
f)impact on neighorhoods during and after construction
aa)traffic
bb)parking
cc)access to rest of city, all boro's
dd)housing cost, up or down
Trevor, Mark and I did it. We found the Roosevelt Terminal. It is now half office and half storage. We were able to get down to the trackbed and walk to the crossover. We dare go not further. I am sorry that I did not take any pics but it was very interesting. A peferctly good station wasted. We later took an E to JC. On the way, we saw the cut out at Woodahven Blvd. We then took a long and interesting Q44 ride to 180St(Bus Talk). We tried to look for the 142 but employees were everywhere. One set were missing from the yard. We took the Dyre shuttle to Gun Hill Rd to see if it was there but did not find it. Took the 2 down into Manhattan where a transient was making himself known. The express run was cool. We had an excellent day railfanning. I had an excellent weekend railfanning. I will be planning more trips like these. If anybody is interested, email me.........
3TM
However Mike did not take photos but I did, should be out by next weekend and will be posted here!
Trevor
I have video from this area and will take stills of it just as soon as I am able.
--Mark
Wonder if you two would consider sending the pics over to Kevin Walsh at www.forgotten-ny.com.....Seems like its something he would put on his site
You mean, you just walked in there, sight unseen, and weren't stopped by anybody?
--mark
When were leaving, we were stopped by an employee. He said that there were a lot of thefts in the area. I want to do it again but it wont be for a while.......... There was also a third trackbed which looks like it descends to the IND level?????? Like I said we will be doing it again........
3TM
is that the same terminal where the Q train runs below ?? I always wanted to know what was above
the roosevelt island terminal !!! ....
There is no Roosevelt Island Terminal, and we have said this once, we will say it again, the Q TRAIN DOES NOT RUN HERE! Is this going in one eye and out the other?
YES OR NO ( does the Q train run to the ROOSEVELT ISLAND TERMINAL ?? ) thank you
please folks i know the answer but does PIGs know the answer ??
FREE RAILFAN VIDIEO TO ANYONE WHO PROVES ME WRONG !!!...
THERE IS NO TERMINAL AT ROOSEVELT ISLAND!
DID YOU KNOW that roosevelt island was once called WELFARE island ... an island named after you and your blood sucking welfare leeches !!! isn't that WONDERFUL ??...
Does any body knows if someone has subway sound recordings in the web?
i do i have 1981 CHICAGO SUBWAY SIUNDS fits on a 90 minute casette tape !!!
HEYPAUL has a nice audio tape of THE PHILADELPHIA SUBWAY AND R-1--R-9 LL SUBWAY !!
audio cassette train sounds mine are free asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
i do i have 1981 CHICAGO SUBWAY SOUNDS fits on a 90 minute casette tape !!!
HEYPAUL has a nice audio tape of THE PHILADELPHIA SUBWAY AND R-1--R-9 LL SUBWAY !!
audio cassette train sounds mine are free asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
I'am sorry I mean IRT R17-36 car sounds.
I'm trying to remember where I found it, but there used to be a GREAT mp3 file of an old Lacawanna MU train pulling in, stopping, spitting out passengers, the starting up again. complete with compressor noise...
This was the last known whereabouts of it:
http://EL-List.Railfan.net/archives/mu.mp3
I've also found sound files of the British Deltic locomotives online too. I guess as bandwidth becomes cheaper and cheaper - we'll see more and more of this kind of stuff online (and eventually video!)
my audio track is pretty good on my sony 8 mm camera !!
Remember that message a day or two ago about disorderly revelers on the LIRR? It happened today on the 5:22 from Penn to Ronkonkoma. There were five 20-ish drunks in my car, standing in one of the vestibules with their 40 ounces and cigarettes (yes, cigarettes). As we were passing through Jamaica, the conductor came by to collect their tickets. As best I could hear (I was several rows back), they had offpeak tickets and claimed to have no money to pay the $3-per-ticket stepups.* The conductor told them they'd have to get off at the next stop, which was Wyandanch, and in response they started making some loud profane comments about Wyandanch and the people who lived in the town. The conductor headed back to his booth, with the five drunks calling "faggot" as he walked down the aisle, and then we heard some "go to Channel Four" messages over the intercom.
Soon enough, the conductor returned with two men who obviously were off-duty cops. The train came to a stop at Floral Park and the cops escorted the five drunks off the train. Now what was quite amusing is that while the five were being marched down the aisle (for some reason, the conductor opened the door at the other end of the car, not the door next to which they'd been standing), most of the people in the car almost simultaneously burst out in laughter. It was so well cued you'd have thought there was TV-style canned laughter being played. The looks on the drunks' faces was absolutely precious, as they realized they were being dissed big time. Someone called out "Have Mommy pick you up," which made everyone laugh all that much harder. I'll say one thing, it made for a most amusing end to the work week!
Not fair! How come the Suffolk scumbags got dropped off of the Nassau/Queens border? Geez, we've got enough skells of our own.
03/18/2000
After returning from a ERA NY division meeting last night, I boarded the 10:07PM Babylon Local out of Penn Station last night. Everything was fine until we reached Jamaica. First came the announcements over the P.A. "Conductor go to channel 4". Doors still open and a couple of minutes later, "collector go to channel 4". A few minutes later the engineer gets on, "conductor what's the holdup?". People are getting aggitated in the last car I was sitting in. A crew member, either conductor,collector or brakeman opens cab door walks off train with LIRR winter coat. Then the message on the PA was for people to get back on the train because doors were closing. A peek out the raifan window, I could see another train behind us. We left and that was that. We we got to Wantagh, the conductor came to the cab opposite where I was sitting. I asked him what the holdup at Jamaica was. He said that the police were called to remove a New York City fireman who was pushing around the trainman. I asked if he had to much to drink, the conductor nodded and said that he was locked up. It seems that a holiday to celebrate a famous Irish saint has turned into an excuse for being drunk and disorderly. Sort of like an adult version of Halloween minus the booze.
Bill Newkirk
[Not fair! How come the Suffolk scumbags got dropped off of the Nassau/Queens border? Geez, we've got enough skells of our own.]
I would imagine that the conductors and the cops wanted to get them off the train at the first opportunity. Floral Park just happened to to be that opportunity.
Most likely, the five drunks bought new tickets and got a later train home to Ronkonkoma (the conductor had confiscated their off-peaks). They obviously were lying when they claimed not to have any money - no one would go into the city for the day without bringing money or at least an ATM card.
While not for the reason Larry mentioned, I do suspect that Floral Park was chosen for a reason.
There are no trains from Floral Park to Ronkonkoma. In fact, on a Friday evening, the next eastbound train going anywhere other than Hempstead doesn't leave until sometime early Monday morning.
I hope our friends are enjoying their visit to Floral Park.
Chuck
[re drunks being thrown off train in Floral Park]
[While not for the reason Larry mentioned, I do suspect that Floral Park was chosen for a reason.
There are no trains from Floral Park to Ronkonkoma. In fact, on a Friday evening, the next eastbound train going anywhere other than Hempstead doesn't leave until sometime early Monday morning.]
Could be, but I tend to think they got the boot in Floral Park mainly because that was the first available station. The cops arrived to confront the drunks about while we were passing through Queens Village, and it took a little time for the conductor to "channel four" the engineer and tell him we were ready to stop.
I sort of wonder what they did in Floral Park after getting ejected.
I don't know - the Village police in Floral Park have little tolerance for rowdies, as my own memories serve me well. I ran afoul of them on several occasions as a youth.
Wayne
Maybe only certain doors can be "keyed" open with out the whole side being opened like subway cars. That is why they didn't use the door where they were.
A new review of Peter Dougherty's book is at rapidtransit.net.
SubTalkers are invited to submit reviews of their favorites, even short "capsule" reviews such as our Anon_e_mouse's short but pithy take on Malbone Street.
P.S. I was pretty tired by the time I posted the review. If I've made some errors, I'd be grateful to anyone who points them out.
Agreed, the book is a comprehensive and mighty one. Not only is the book vastly informative, but the graphics are clean and easily decipherable (as a dabbler in design both professionally and on my website, I have a fascination with signage and design that subway stations help to fuel).
After looking at the book, for the first time I understand the pre- and post-Chrystie Manhattan Bridge routings, for example.
The book is rather hard to find, though, with the Museum carrying it now and again (not right now, at least at GCT). I do wish the book could be more widely distributed. (Sure, you can write to him for the book in Toronto, but wouldn't it be nice to stroll into your local neighborhood book and coffee chain and pick it up, or punch in your numbers to amazon and have it at your door in a couple of days?)
Anyway, I've made a resolution to not complain about things QUITE so much, so I'll stop now.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The track map is now the official reference over at DCP -- it shows up in meetings whenever transit issues are discussed. It's great for anyone who needs to be concerned with transit issues in some detail, but is not an engineer. They were used in the sputtering out DCP study about what, if anything, could be done about the Manhattan Bridge, for example.
Based on our discussions, there are some additions Peter could make if the information were available and he ever got bored. The height or depth above or below the street is one (measured from the rail in the station?) The tightness of the curves is another.
Maybe Peter wants to keep the book as sort of his own cottage industry and doesn't want to get involved in distribution. If the book had an ISBN number I know Amazon and B&N would at least list it.
When I ordered (direct from him) I wondered if there would be any Customs issues, but the book was mailed from this side of the border and arrived faster than I expected, though not with the speed of one of the on-lines.
My nosy nature makes me wonder how many of these sell, with or without distribution. It's a really esoteric subject.
Previewing a message causes the password to be removed from the cookie. I have to post a message (without previewing) to reset it.
That explains it. I previewed a message and presto! no cookie. The next post I put the password back, and it stayed. Hopefully Dave will correct or explain.
During my lunch break, I railfan the 1 line down to SF. When we got to Cortlandt, the conductor said connection to LIRR. He then corrected himself and said PATH. SF is a cool, tight curve station. It is amazing how those R62a's could take that curve. Saw a 5 making its turn on the outer loop. Went upstairs to take the M15 bus back to work but ended up walking...........
Questions:
1. How come Rector St was not rehabiitated like the other two stations?
2. I think a SF/Whitehall/BG transfer should be made. Is this at all possible? The Whitehall St entrance is across the street from SF at one end and BG at he other end.
3. Is there a station platform on the other side of the tracks? As we were entering SF, I saw through the square openings what appeared to be tiles.
I am glad the conductor was stressing that evryone go to the first 5 cars. It look like it was mostly tourists on the train. Speaking of tourists, when I was at Wall, a Blyn bound 2 entered the station. A group of tourists got off. The conductors closed the doors and these people started to motion. What happened was that their friends got stuck on the train as it headed to Bklyn. Im sure they found their way back. The conductor closed the door too quickly.
3Train#1914(Sill got its Pelham sticker)Mike
South Ferry ROCKS!!
3. Is there a station platform on the other side of the tracks? As we were entering SF, I saw through the square openings what appeared to be tiles.
South Ferry's inner loop did indeed have a platform. Large openings were cut into the tunnel wall to make the station because cutting a "normal" platform would have compromised the structural integrity of the South Ferry tunnel. The platform is behind this tunnel wall. It was used until the Bowling Green - South Ferry shuttle was discontinued around 1975. It's used now for storage.
--Mark
<<2. I think a SF/Whitehall/BG transfer should be made. Is this at all possible? The Whitehall St entrance is across the street
from SF at one end and BG at he other end.>>
It would be difficult, but not impossible. The 1/9 at SF is about on the same level as the fare control zone on the N/R, so you would have to build a tunnel (over the 4/5 tracks) to connect up with the N/R past the walkway leading over to the South Ferry exit, and bring it in somewhere past the turnstiles but before the escalators.
Unless the Manny B were completely shut down -- forcing tons more people onto the Montague Street tunnel's lines -- I don't think they'll do this anytime soon. An easier connection to the West Side IRT would probably be a transfer between the City Hall station on the N/R and Park Place on the 2/3.
As part of the proposed new Staten Island Ferry Terminal, an underground passageway to both the Whitehall Street (N/R) and South Ferry (1/9) stations are to be constructed. Once this project is completed (in 2005?) you will be able to transfer between the two stations by walking through the ferry terminal. But you will have to swipe (or pay) again at the second fare control point.
Sound like the new tunnel will be V shaped, with the terminal at the bottom, instead of a direct line across State Street from the 1/9 platform to near the fare control area on the N/R.
Not underground. The entrance to the 1/9 from the Ferry will be integrated and fully enclosed. The walkway from the ferry to the N/R will be enclosed, not underground. The passage will either be at ground level, or overhead, with escalators into the fare control area at Whitehall St.
-Hank
didnt come out bad at all i shot this into the sunset then downtown comes to life into the night !!
the river and buildings shine bright even when nightime comes the vidieo lasts almost two hours !!!
not bad at all !!! asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
Man, some Locomotive Engineers (and yes Motormen do this 2) are evil. I boarded the 3:56 Train from Flatbush Terminal to Rosedale, and The Engineer had his light on in the cab with the door closed. I noticed he was reading a book. The Dead-man was held down by a bag, and the Train ran automatically with him neglecting to pay attention. I must admit, I feared for my safety because, the speedometer said 70 and the train was moving as if it had a mind of its own.
On another note, why are there more C locals that A Train Expresses?
I was in Bway, ENY after leaving a manahattan bound J train for an A Train. 2 C Trains arrived, each 8 minutes apart, and No A Train. I took the C local between Bway and ENY, when at Utica avenue an A comes rolling in. ARGHH. and also, Y does the J have so many Time grade signals. Thats the slowest Train that goves over a bridge. The 1/9 line over the broadway bridge, and the B,D,Q over the Manhattan bridge are faster than that. it was pitiful. Cars were going faster. Thats not supposed to happen!. A Train always was, is and always will be more powerful than a car. so why don't it show??
i dont know why either it was so hard to get a A train either !! EEEE AND CCC trains all the ime !!
The J trackage over the Willie B was completely rebuilt recently. The number of timers is due to the mood swings of TA management in recent years. They've slowed a lot of trains down in recent years, as has been mentioned just a few times in previous posts; and, while they were rebuilding the Willie B, they took the opportunity to slow down the J.
Maybe they're also afraid of shaking the bridge apart?
Think that bridge was repaird way to fast sure made those contacters happy they got an extra 3 million for finishing 1 month early on top of what the contract was for
Let me understand this - 2 C trains came 8 minutes apart with no A train between them. You, therefore observed service for 16 minutes and came to the conclusion that there are more trains on the C line than the A line? The fact is that there are almost double the number of trains on the A line as are on the C line. Here's a thought. Maybe the A train was delayed by a bridge opening, customers holding doors or even mechanical failure.
From this, I devine that there is a drawbridge on the Rockaway line....?
There are actually two bridges. The North Channel Bridge is between Howard Beach and broad Channel and the South Channel Bridge is between Broad Channel and Rockaway. The South Channel Bridge is the only one I've actually seen operate.
IIRC, the North Channel Bridge is permenantly closed.
-Hank
The LIRR wont go on by itself. If there is a change in speed limit or if there is a change in signal attributes, or if the train is going too fast a alarm bell will go off. If he does not response to the bell and slow the train, the emergency brakes will go on. So, I would not worry. Well maybe when you pull into Jamaica.
Big difference between trains over the Broadway Bridge and trains over every other bridge the subway uses is the lack of a grade. The Broadway Line runs on an el on both sides of the Harlem River, so it is not climbing out of or descending in to a tunnel on either side.
The bridges in Jamacia Bay also have approach grades.
-Hank
I was on a J train to Jamaica Center, yesterday. The Train made all local stops. The Motorman said skip-stop starts at 5:00 in peak Direction. However, The Train stopped at 121st street. when the doors opened, the opened and closed several times. The Conductor and Motorman thought someone was leaning on the door. The Motorman was unsure. I alerted him that his Guard light was on. He checked all the doors and finally the problem was corrected. It was the 16:24 because he called the Tower. What I liked most was many people had questions, and I had answers. They were impressed by my knowledge. The Motorman asked, how do u know about my Job? I said, My uncle operates the R. I plan to be a Engineer myself for LIRR. I like helping people in that way, Because New York Average Subway passengers do not appreciate Trains until something gpes wrong with them. Back in December, when they were going 2 strike, when they didn't I was on my uncle's E Train entering Parsons boulevard from the yard, people started clapping!. New Yorkers always as questions like "is this stopping at 14th and 6th avenue"? I dunno about u other Railfans, but I like being able to assure them and say "yes this is a F Train local".
OK...forgive me because I've seen this topic here before, but...
Why ARE there no-photography rules that are occasionally enforced?
What potential harm comes from photographing anything in the subway, PATH, MBTA etc?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I have no problem with people taking pictures in the subway. I've done it myself and one of my boys does it on ocassion. Here is my beef: Flash photography. Those damn tourists! I work the E. Lots of tourists on Eighth Ave. How many times does a flash go off in my face while I'm entering a station! It is very distracting. It looks like arcing from the third rail or 600 volts coming thru the am-meter in the cab (happened to me once, lit the cab up like lightning!). Here's the best: somebody yeaterday around 11 AM going to the St. Paddy's parade. In the tube going toward Manhattan, all of a sudden in a split second I see a large bluish flash ahead of me. I thought I hit something on the third rail or motor blew. But no explosion! I quickly opened the cab door. I saw some (female) with a camera in her hand. She took a picture out the front window of the R32. Please! As if she would light up the tunnel! And even if she did, all she would get is the rear reflection from the storm door glass! I told her it was very distracting to me. She thought it was funny. I surely didn't. If she told me of her intentions beforehand, at least I would have been prepared for the flash. I also asked another woman at 34/8th not to take flash photo's in the subway a few days prior. She had her male companion stand at the 10 car marker and took his picture in front of the train as I was stopping. The monentary blinding by the flash could cause us to miss the stop markers.
You're lucky you're just dealing with the small tourist camera flashes. If someone came down there with one of those mega-burst flashes used for sports and distance photography, you'd really have a problem.
bill--- what kind of equipment has ammeters that 600 volts can come through?--- was that passenger equipment?--- was it a short circuit or arc?--- did you get hurt?--- what happened afterward?
You know something, the other day, at the Union Turnpike station, I took a pic of an R-46 Manhattan bound F pulling into the station. Flash went off, camera can't control the flash, next thing you know, the train is stuck for 15 minutes at the 71st Continental ave station. If the motorman of that train is watching, my sincerest apologies.
I don't see how the 2 events are connected.
Summer of 1982, midnites on the D. Took a point of power at Bedford Park. Lightning flash in cab. Amemter which is behind the right shoulder of motorman (powered by 32 volt battery circuit), according to RCI in car 4484 got 600 volts into it and flashed. Lightning in cab. Meter was charcoal black. Sealed beams burnt out too. They were charcoal black as well. 600 volts got into there too. Car had to go to CIYD main shop to get rewired.
Thats interesting. I was told in school car that the motor current ammeter measures the current of the number one traction motor. Maybe the "Train Dude" can answer this 12-2 in detail. Did the radio fry too?
The ammeter measures the current of one truck. Since the two traction motors on a truck are permanently connected in series, it's technically correct to say that the ammeter is measuring the #1 T/Mtr. armature current.
I understand the ammeter's function but I should have restated my question to read as "what would cause a backfeed from the 600V circuit to the low voltage circuits"?
There are two common pathways for 600 Volts to get into the LV circuits. Most common is within the group box. Virtually every 600 volt switch is controlled by 36 VDC. If a switch fails, it often arcs over to the LV circuits. Nost prone to damage are the SCM-1 controllers on the R-46. These advanced units utilize a 26 volt power supply for the low voltage logic. If 600 gets into there, you've got a repair bill of several thou.
The other pathway for 600 volts to get into the LV circuits is right behind the operator. The HVAC panel and lighting panel both contain contactors that use 37 volts and 600 volts. Failure mode is the same as in the group box. Also dirt and steel dust make an excellent conducting medium when wet. One reason that cleaning of those panels is so heavily stressed on inspection.
No, the radio did not fry. I reported the incident to the Bedford Park dispatcher via the radio. The radio bracket, BTW, is hooked up the #24 circuit breaker which monitors indication. That was not a good idea! And indication was not affected when this incident occured. Of course, the radio brackets remain empty now because the T/O now carries a portable radio. I believe the exception is on OPTO trains where the old big radio is carried mostly as a spare in case of failure of the T/O portable.
Ammeter is not powered by 32 volts. It (the ammeter) is wired across a shunt in the motor circuit. I actually saw that exact phenomonon on an R-42. I replaced the inverter fuse to correct a dark car and when I threw the switch, it looked like the cab was going to super-nova. That was one time I had no trouble discharging the customers & removing the train from service.
Not all of the current goes through the needle movement on an ammeter. There will almost always be a shunt resistor of some sort. I installed a 100-amp ammeter in my Jeep when I bought it, since it has a 100-amp alternator, and figured that the shunt resistor in that ammeter is probably less than one ohm.
What type of car?
Thank you, for that tip I will mend my evil flashing taking ways.
but, seriously I'm glad you brought this point up in educating people not to distract the motormen from their job.
You will NEVER find me taking flash photography of the front of a train UNLESS the train is stopped and I have signalled the T/O that I am about to take the picture. Two pictures of mine (both on this site) of "A" trains taken at Chambers-H&M I had signalled both T/Os and they looked away while I took the pictures. No problem.
NEVER fire a flash into the face of a T/O.
Wayne
[Never fire a flash into the face of a T/O.]
More than just a request - it's plain old-fashioned common sense!!
Wayne's approach is very logical and considerate. Of course, best of all is to take pictures at a terminal, with no T/O on board at all.
I once heard a train operator get on the PA to cite the dangers of using flash in photos of on-coming trains. Since I was riding in the front car, I also saw the very red face of the offending photographer.
Good bet that that was me on the PA, since I've done that a few times in the last 4 months.
I USE KODAX 400 SPEED FILM no flash with a tripod !!! I Make Sure that the flash is off !!!
it is best to wait in font of the train where it stops and wait until it STOPS !! when the doors open
TAKE YOUR BEST SHOT !!! remember to stay out of the way !!! look at the thumnails of the R 27-30
for example !!! ( and others as well ) and you can see aprox. where the cameras were used to shoot from !!
ALSO i shot with my sony tr 86 and tr 66 8 mm vidieo camera with a tripod and thru the railfan window
NO VIDIEO CAMERA LIGHT !!! the A Q J L E 2 5 7 I must return to shoot the 4 and 6 !!!
if you must use a flash do so with a train stopped without no motorman in it !!!
the stations are not as dark as the good old days so you dont usually need a flash !!!
Yes but if you take a photo without flash in a flourescent-lit subway station it comes out greenish and VERY grainy. Shoot away from the flourescent light and you won't get glare. Tile walls: shoot on an angle or below the subject or at the white tile. Example: I want to take a picture of the little caption below an IND tile band at an express stop (where the caption is on the trackside wall). I never aim straight at the little caption, I aim to the left of it. Never fails.
Wayne
The same thing happened to me last night on the F.There was a couple standing by the conductors board at 23st. As the train approached them,they took a picture of the train. I almost put the train in emergency because of the distraction. It took a few seconds for me to get my focus back on the ten car marker.
You are 100% right. However, the offending parties are not likely to visit this forum.
Peace,
Andee
Here is another example of why this is such a great site ! We have Bill, Mike, Erick, Harry and other T/Os who are still train buffs to some extent (maybe less now then when they started the job) who give the rest of us very good and practical advise from the operators point of view.
Thanks Bill we appreciate your comments.
Mr t__:^)
Most transit properties allow photography in their bylaws (This includes the TTC, who also post a copy of the bylaws on the subway cabs in each car) as long as it is not for commercial use. Hobbiests like us shouldn't have a problem, and nonprofit organizations like nycsubway.org probably wouldn't have any trouble at all.
BE VERY CAREFUL ON THE TTC, PARTICULARLY IN THE SUBWAYS!
I suppose this applies to the other systems as well as the TTC but here are many operators who panic and call the Transit Security / Police. They can arrive in an instant, and they do get pretty nasty to photographers, especially if you have a tripod. Tripods immediately make you look two things, they are:
1) Professional, you look more like a real photographer than a hobbiest or tourist.
2) Suspicious. Many train operators act like the tripod and camera setup is more like an alien space craft than a device for recording images.
If you do get cornered by the transit security, just explain what you are doing, why you are doing it and they should leave you alone. If they don't, as in my case where this picture was taken, and they fiddle with your camera, try to take down a badge number or something to identify them in case you later discover that they've BROKEN YOUR CAMERA! I was taking pictures of the subway and the transit police 'inspected' my camera by fiddling the various lens rings and other controls on it, including the manual rewind and advance levers. The film handling mechanisim has not worked correctly (films don't wind, unwind, or adance reliably) since they 'inspected' the camera, and I lost several rolls of film when I popped open the camera after rewinding the film completely, according to the screwed up frame counter.
This is the picture that got the camera broke, click for a full size copy:
5200 leads a train of T1 cars in the southbound platform at Davisville, after dark in February.
I don't have a problem while taking pictures but i never ever used the flash even im underground or outdoor. Like my NYCTransiTrans Gallery page almost all the pictures are outdoor & i never take pictures at night. I been taking pictures for year now & i enjoy it. So if you want to use the flash? than go to end of station when last car stop than take pictures with flash not front car.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
Perhaps there is one thing I should clear up.
I don't know about New York, but the TTC subway trains have reflective safety tape on the ends (it is the line beneath the destination sign in my picture and elsewhere on the ends of the cars) of the cars so that workmen can shine lighs on the trains and spot them immediatley in tunnels.
If you take a picture of a train with a flash, it will reflect off of the tape, back into the camera which will attempt to compensate for the brightness by underexposing the rest of the picture, so all you see is a ghost image with several bright lines.
Therefore I don't use a flash, and my camera doesn't have one even if I did want to use a flash.
Done that taking pictures at fires. I've yet to master the compensation for the strobes, although I did manage to clear up the effect from their reflective gear (adjustable flash)
-Hank
No picture, just a big "ad" for Xoom.com. Maybe another trial is necessary.
It worked when I tried it earlier, but now it seems to have been replaced with the Xoom thing. I guess they've got to get their advertising in everywhere somehow.
Here is the link to follow:
http://mx3.xoom.com/wobit/images/subway_t1/large/5200_sb_davisville.jpg
http://mx3.xoom.com/wobit/images/subway_t1/large/5200_sb_davisville.jpg
Results in yet another ad.
Copy & paste the URL into the address line. It worked for me.
That's what I eventually did. Apparently, xoom has found a way to stop people from linkig directly to opjects on their members sites. Yet they can't figure out why I can't view my counter.
-Hank
Copy & paste the URL into the address line. It worked for me.
Anyone user can bypass Xoom's linking restrictions by installing a proxy or firewall that blocks HTTP 'Referrer:' headers. Without the header Xoom can't tell where the link originated and will serve anything as if the address had been entered on the location bar.
Squid will do the job nicely, but for those who don't want the overhead of a serious cache proxy, http://www.junkbusters.com will work fine. Incidentally, both Squid and Junkbuster can also be configured to nuke banner ads...
CH.
I was just about to write a post about Junkbuster when I read this one. Yup I run junkbuster w/ it blocking the Referer: headers and all Xoom does is check to see if you are coming from a Xoom page or not. For those of you annoyed by banner ads, cookies, etc. you have to check it out. May require you to play with the block files a bit to get what you want but I find it a great asset.
http://www.junkbusters.com/
-- Dave
I get the actual pic w/ both the original post and this one.
-- Dave
Gave me the Xoom ad until I did the "cut & paste" trick, whereupon the car, run number and all appeard. After doing that, every link provided worked as promised.
Nice pic!!
XOOM does that with all images on XOOM sites so people don't put it on other server sites and using XOOM's Bandwith. Lycos was going to do that until too many of their customers complained (alot of the Lycos images are used in WebTV email signature boxes) so now they just do it with wavs and mids. (audio) If someone uses an address of a wav or mid from a Lycos site they get a big ad (like the XOOM ad) instead of the sound.
None of this happens with GeoCities.
The pages have a small closable AdSquare appear in the upper right hand corner, which can be customized by the user. One can also install a GeoBanner Exchange banner and that will bypass the AdSquare. The AdSquare stays in the corner and doesn't follow you as you scroll and obviates the need for you to pay homage to GeoCities within the homepage.
Xoom will complain (and pop up an ugly error message) if you try to link to an image on the Xoom server from a page elsewhere. You can solve that by linking instead to an HTML file (on Xoom) with the image inline. Or just tell people to manually cut and paste the image URL into their browsers.
It worked when I tried it earlier, but now it seems to have been replaced with the Xoom thing. I guess they've got to get their advertising in everywhere somehow.
Here is the link to follow:
http://mx3.xoom.com/wobit/images/subway_t1/large/5200_sb_davisville.jpg
http://mx3.xoom.com/wobit/images/subway_t1/large/5200_sb_davisville.jpg
~
Thanks for passing this info on. It'll come in handy when I make a second trip to Toronto in May (was there last May and took lots of video). Your description of why not to use a tripod (even though you'd like to) is dead-on.
I even had a passenger get bent out of shape thinking I took video of HER exiting the subway. I had to prove to her that I had erased the shot before she withdrew her threat to call the police for "privacy violations". The tourist argument (which was true, by the way) didn't work at all.
--Mark
'Tough shit, you're in public. No violation exists. Want me to quote you the law?' Only say it nicer. On the other hand, if you INTEND to take a picture, it's best to ask first.
-Hank
You're right, of course, but just the same, I'd rather not have the Royal Canadian Mounted Police inspect my camera ....
--Mark
Thanks for passing this info on. It'll come in handy when I make a second trip to Toronto in May (was there last May and took lots of video). Your description of why not to use a tripod (even though you'd like to) is dead-on.
The major TTC railfan club here in Toronto has had no end of problems with their members being harassed by TTC inspectors and TTC police. One inspector even tried to have someone arrested for taking pictures of a bus terminal from the sidewalk!
It's pretty much a given that anyone who pulls out a camera on the Toronto subway or near the entrances to any transit vehicle service depot will be challenged by TTC staff. If you want a miniumum of hastle on your trip, I strongly suggest you write to the TTC (their mailing address is on the city's homepage -- http://city.toronto.on.ca) and ask customer service if photography for personal use is permitted (the answer is yes). Keep their reply so you have some evidence to use when and if you're challenged by the transit police.
That said, here's a tip: there's a public footbridge over Davisville yard. This is about the best vantage point in the city for yard shots. Ride behind the railfan window on a northbound train to Davisville station and you won't miss it.
Enjoy your trip.
CH.
okay--- so it's just a 1st week anniversary of the
article last week--- but you didn't think i was
going to wait a year to bring this up again?--- if
you only read the article on-line, you missed the
picture of me and the cab--- this picture took up
close to 2/3 of the page--- also does anyone know
what the picture on the front page was supposed to
be--- it's in a subway station, and there is a train
in the station, and a black young male leaning
against a pole, with white pants, jacket, and a
white hood... who is he and what was this image
suppose to mean?--- this picture takes up 3/4 of the
front page---
i have still have a bunch of copies of the paper,
since most of the people i have shown it to, have
thrown it back in my face... if you want a copy of
the section e-mail me.....
while i am busy promoting my own ego, i might as
well remind everyone about the fledgling club at
yahoo--- ustalk--- a place to talk about what's
going in our lives or in our heads...
in case i mess up the html it is:
clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ustalk
ustalk
One Dave Frattini has published, on the St. Martin's Griffin imprint, a station-by-station guide, like the one featured in nycsubway.org.
Frattini is a pretty young guy (in his foreword he cites Albert Belle, Kid Rock and "the hotties on the US Women's Soccer Team") but he has done his homework on the history of the IND, BMT and IND, and apparently, he has visited all 450+ NYC subway stations and gives a capsule review of each.
The station reviews are kind of brief and superficial, but he does notice things like the old Subway Sun signs at the IND Broadway station, for example. But, there are occasional jarring errors, such as referring to lines by color throughout ("the A,C, E [the Blue Line])"; nobody I've ever met calls NYC subway lines by color. He also claims "The open cut stations of the N and R lines...pierce through the neighborhood backyards of Bensonhurst and Sunset Park in Brooklyn." First, the R does not travel in an open cut; secondly, it goes nowhere near Bensonhurst; and no NYC subway goes 'through' anyone's back yard.
Stuff like this (errors are also, incredibly, in Fischler's "The Subways") drive me nuts. I suppose this insistence I have on precision only fuels inferences made by that guy in last Saturday's Daily News that rail buffs are asocial obsessives.
Back to the book. Frattini, besides his subway reviews, mentions a naeighborhood eatery that's in the vicinity of each station, nearby landmarks, and local unusual spots. These are all quite helpful (but may become outdated in a couple of years).
Basically, if you're looking for detailed, specific descriptions of NYC subway stations, stick with nycsubway.org. But, if you need a quick and dirty field guide when you're out rail fanning, this book is pretty decent for the money (abt $16).
www.forgotten-ny.com
(Errors in books)
There lies the advantage of Dave's site vs. a book. Errors are gradually eliminated through amatuer peer review, and information is added on an ongoing basis. You could never have such extensive review of a draft manuscript. Only books that manage to survive a series of editions have a chance of becomming as authoritative.
>>>You could never have such extensive review of a
draft manuscript. Only books that manage to survive a series of editions have a chance of becomming as
authoritative. <<<
If I ever get to do a Forgotten NY book, though, I intend to have all my facts verified without a syllable out of place. Notice the word INTEND. I don't know how much all of this passes out of your hands, or more literally, away from your eyes, during the editing process...
www.forgotten-ny.com
A long, long way away from the author. The best way to minimize this is to have it published by a small publisher and do a lot of the advance work yourself. I have a great deal of experience in editing and I suspect that there are a couple of other folks out here that do to; if and when you get to the point of writing, I'll be glad to help edit.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A long, long way away from the author. The best way to minimize this is to have it published by a small publisher and do a lot of the advance work yourself. I have a great deal of experience in editing and I suspect that there are a couple of other folks out here that do too; if and when you get to the point of writing, I'll be glad to help edit.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[He also claims "The open cut stations of the N and R lines...pierce
through the neighborhood backyards of Bensonhurst and Sunset Park in Brooklyn." First, the R does not travel in an open cut; secondly, it goes nowhere near Bensonhurst; and no NYC subway goes 'through' anyone's back yard.]
Not to mention the fact that the N goes underground before it gets to Sunset Park.
So unless you have a Palm 7 with internet access, that works underground..........This book is good to have.
I do recommend the book if you're going to visit several neighborhoods on a trip. If you want to stick to nycsubway.org, you could print out any pertinent station reviews and carry the pages with you. Since the book points out local nosheries and neighborhood landmarks, it's good to have for that purpose.
My problem is with the book's occasional inaccuracies and disregard for agreed-upon-for-decades subway nomenclature, but I can get over it...
www.forgotten-ny.com
[My problem is with the book's occasional inaccuracies and disregard for agreed-upon-for-decades subway nomenclature, but I can get over it...]
I haven't read the book, but I can excuse the use of color names for line (e.g. "blue line" for the A/C/E). It's probably safe to assume that the author wanted his book to appeal to tourists or other persons unfamiliar with the subway system. Color names do help make the system more comprehensible for neophytes. I know, it's easy for Subtalk regulars to forget this, but the system can be hopelessly confusing to the uninitiated. If color names help, so be it.
Now, the inaccuracy you mentioned regarding the N and R (open cuts running through back yards in Bensonhurst and Sunset Park), well, I find that basically unpardonable. Anyone knowledgeable enough about the subway to attempt a work of this sort absolutely should have known better. Now that my curiosity's been piqued, I'll have to buy the book and see for myself.
Stuff like this (errors are also, incredibly, in Fischler's "The Subways") drive me nuts. I suppose this insistence I have on precision only fuels inferences made by that guy in last Saturday's Daily News that rail buffs are asocial obsessives
My feeling, whether it's this guy, Fischler or Cudahy (or Matus, for that matter), if you don't make some effort at accuracy, why write it.
As to railfans being obsessive, some of those in any serious hobby are like.
My bro' is now a literary researcher and writes and lectures on Shakespeare. If you want to see obsessive, some of the people in that field will argue and feud over commas. And the acrimony is no less because it's couched in scholarly language.
>>>My feeling, whether it's this guy, Fischler or Cudahy (or Matus, for that matter), if you don't make some
effort at accuracy, why write it. <<<
In fairness, Cudahy's "Under The Sidewalks Of New York City" is the finest NYC subway history ever done, IMHO. It's concise, readable, and the guy knows his stuff; there seem to be no blatant errors.
I was surprised, and dismayed, by the prolific Stan Fischler's "The Subways", which came out about three years ago. It carries over some items from Uptown, Downtown (1976) that no longer applied by 1997. Also, the book itself is a slipshod production with spelling errors and typos, from the usually fine H&M Productions.
I'm told the factual errors cropped up because Fischler employed a very young (read: cheap) staff of researchers, who obviously mised some stuff. "The Subways" was a base on balls where it coulda been a four-bagger.
BTW, if anyone knows Stan, all this is hearsay on my part. I may not know the whole story.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[I'm told the factual errors cropped up because Fischler employed a very young (read: cheap) staff of researchers, who obviously mised some stuff. "The Subways" was a base on balls where it coulda been a four-bagger.]
In fairness, Stan Fischler might not have been able to afford anything better. Total sales for "The Subway" are probably about what a John Grisham potboiler sells in an hour. True, Brian Cudahy has much greater accuracy on books that probably don't sell much more than Stan Fischler's, but that might be because he has more time on his hands to conduct the necessary research. In addition, IIRC Brian Cudahy is a faculty member at a university, which if true would give him access to cheap (or maybe free) student labor.
Lack of research funds also might have contributed to some of the errors in Dave Frattini's book. It's hard for me to say, as I haven't read the book yet. Although the error about the N and R that you mentioned is a different matter, as that's something which should be obvious to anyone with even a minimal knowledge of the system.
Stan Fischler is one of the few writers in the field who might actually make 50 cents on his books.
I can name too many researchers who have worked their fingers and brains off in their free time to transcribe history accurately and have never made more than a starvation wage off it, if that. And they did their own research.
Some of the errors in The Subway are egregious. Some are the result of just plain poor editing.
"The Subway" is wonderful book, if only because he had access to so many good photo sources, and I credit him personally with trying to provide an interesting and well written (in the story sense) work. But Stan's rendition of the Malbone Street Wreck alone is enough to place a pall on the research in the entire book.
MSG needs to pay Stan more for his hockey commentary on SportsDesk during the Ranger games so he can afford higher priced copy editors.
As long as we're on the subject of subway books, has anyone noticed the chapter in New York City Subway Cars before it gets into each car class? Talk about bad grammar! I got the impression that little, if any, proofreading was done on the manuscript. Subway Cars of the BMT is much better in that regard.
There have been many complaints about how slow the trains are these days, what with the crashes, safety investigations, grade timers, etc. Does everyone remember the days when the system hit bottom and the OPPOSITE complaint was in the news?
The news was filled with rumours of outlaw T/Os, the so-called "comboys," who roared through the system with excess speed. The TA and the TWU denied the existed -- after all, high speeds would make the trains arrive early, and THAT never happened.
When Gunn came in, however, he insisted that trains actually meet schedules, and we ended up with a rash of "this train is being held in the station until its scheduled leaving time" -- remember those?
I'd appreciate comments from long time RTO personnel (who seem to have fled from the board since the exciting strike debate ended) about that era. What really went on?
I always wonder, is PATH trains and stations priviate property?
Unlike the city, PATH has the words "cooporation" in its name.
How about the airports? Is LGA and Kennedy priviate property too?
That's Corporation. Co-operation is something else entirely. Generally, property owned my municipal entities is public property, however, this means only that they cannot arbitrarily exclude anyone from using it for its intended use. It doesn't preclude them from charging an entrance fee, or limiting access for reason.
-Hank
Just think that these cars were takin out of service to soon. They are just like the redbirds only longer built by St louis car co in the early 60s just lke redbirds that are still in service today. The only big differance was they did not recieve the major overhaul that the redbirds recived. They are not even used for work train service.
Back when the R27s and some of the cars we now call Redbirds were delivered, the question of relative structural integrity came up. The IRT cars seemed "tighter," for want of a better term.
It was explained to me that all things being equal, a car 8'9" wide and 51' long will be structurally sounder than a car of similar design 9'9" wide and 60'. Roughly, the former car will have only 75% the interior volume of the latter. This means that with equal construction the IRT will be more structurally rigid and sound, and more capable of taking the stresses of service.
Add poor maintenance in the 70's and 80's and the R27s were heading for a fall.
[Back when the R27s and some of the cars we now call Redbirds were delivered, the question of relative structural integrity came up. The IRT cars seemed "tighter," for want of a better term.
It was explained to me that all things being equal, a car 8'9" wide and 51' long will be structurally sounder than a car of similar design 9'9" wide and 60'. Roughly, the former car will have only 75% the interior volume of the latter. This means that with equal construction the IRT will be more structurally rigid and sound, and more capable of taking the stresses of service.
Add poor maintenance in the 70's and 80's and the R27s were heading for a fall.]
I had thought that air conditioning, more specifically the lack thereof, was the main reason for the early demise of the R27/30's. Unlike the IRT redbirds, they could not be retrofitted for air conditioning at a reasonable cost, and hence wouldn't have fit in with the TA's goal of an (almost) entirely air-conditioned fleet.
Even so, the decision to scrap the R27/30's well before the end of their useful lives has to rank as one of the TA's biggest recent blunders.
My impression was that the decision to air condition or not was the make or break for the R27s and that the decision not to a/c was based on the idea: "why put the expense of a/c conversion on a car that survive all that long?"
Of course, the top heavy stress of a/c equipemnt might have exacerbated the R27s inherent structural weakness. That's just a guess.
In theory, the R27s should have been easier to a/c than the redbirds because of the larger plenum space.
Did not know the A/C played such an important factor I figured since the cars were built by the same company and that they were the same design except for length and width thaught they would do the same things like they did with the redbirds
Couldn't they have done a full gut-rehab to these cars, like they did with the R32 and R38?
They DID an minor overhaul to some selected R30As at Coney Island in the early 1980s, but it did not include A/C.
Wayne
I think the point was that since the R27/30s were all LAHT, not stainless steel, they didn't trust the basic structural members to make such a big investment.
I thought that only the ceilings and doors were replaced.
Not even. All I could see was that they were painted and their mechanical systems given a tuneup. The pre-GOH R30's appeared to be the same cars that they were before their GOH.
Not quite so. The cars got new door operators, controllers, and (I believe) motors. The job was similar in scope to what the R-36s and single-unit R-33s went through.
David
Correct. They got brand new GE SCM controllers with 115 HP motors, WABCO D4 comps and the variable load valves were modified with an electronic version using the existing truck linkage. One or two did receive the newer lighting systems found in the IRT mainline cars with battery powered main and emergency lights with those vandal resistant covers and one 83** car had a load weigh in place of a variable load valve. The door engines were completely replaced. They were quick accelerating, easy to operate and smoother than their IRT counterparts without the banging draft gear. All got static convertors.
I was talking about the R-32 and R-38.
On the R32 everything that wasn't replaced was altered somehow either by trimming it or painting it. I count floors, ceilings, lighting, handholds, doors, signs, various mechanical components, installation of A/C, the list is indeed long for the R32 GOH.
Wayne
Don't forget about those stupid, illegible pixel signs up front. That's one area where they could have done better.
The R-27/30s were heavy to begin with. Adding A/C would have increased their weight to BMT standard proportions.
The early demise of these cars marks the second instance I can think of in which a group of cars were retired prematurely. Can everyone say Triplex?
Lets see:
Tr....Tri....triii.....tripl....tripl.....D types.
They should've been kept even without the AC installed. AC is only really needed 3 months out of a year (June, July and August). Outside of the summer, they are just as comfortable (or uncomfortable, according to your personal standards) as the rest of the fleet. 100 R30's would allow the city to increase service on some of it's overburdened lines, especially the L.
It's was a dumb move scrapping these cars when they still had some life left. Perhaps whe the next B division class gets completely retired (the R38, IIRC), they will learn from this mistake and mothball some of them.
You have to kind of sort this out. The R27s weren't scrapped because they didn't have air conditioning, per se. They were scrapped because they were structurally inferior.
They were structurally inferior by a combination of physics (as previously discussed), poor maintenance at a critical time, and the fact they were built of corrosion-capable LAHT steel.
Their useful lives might have been extended if they had been overhauled, but it made no sense to overhaul them without the expensive addition of air conditioning.
Their inherent structural flaws made the expense of air conditioning seem like throwing good money after bad, for not that many more years of service.
The conclusions above are not "from the horse's mouth" but are reasonable surmises based on information I do have.
I wholeheartedly agree that the TA has a terrible record of "overscrapping"--not keeping cars in reserve against contingencies. This has resulted, over the years, in having to pull equipment off the scrap lines temporarily, in weird "kludges" like the Lo-Vs with the "skirts" for BMT operation, and simply having insufficient equipment for contingencies.
Then there were the BMT standards which were given a last-second reprieve in August of 1966 during the R-1/9 crisis in Jamaica Yard. I wonder just what they were supposed to be replaced by.
The R38's, I would guess.
A question. Were the R-27/30s married pairs or single units.
Peace,
Andee
All were the first R cars to be married.
In "B" division, that is. The "A" division R26 and R28 (1959 stock) were the first true married pairs for NYCT.
The first married pairs in the NYC area were the PATH "K" class. They weren't all married consecutively either.
Wayne
The first married pair cars had couplers at the blind ends. The R-29s ushered in drawbars. During GOH, the R-26s and R-28s received drawbars as well. Was it Gene Sansone who referred to the earlier married pairs as Protestant married pairs and the later ones joined by drawbars as Catholic pairs?
Yes all R27/30 were married pairs the R16 was a single unit
Actually the R30s were married but with H2C couplers on the #2 end, therefore not "bonding" them completely. I would consider the R32 and R33 cars to be the first to be "married with no divorce".
Oh well that theory (at least with respect to the R32s) went out the window - there are a total of fifty mis-matched and mis-mated R32s out there currently. All these occurred during GOH.
Married with no divorce - ask the Odd Couple (#3348-3549)...
Wayne
So they got an annulment first.-)
i could not agree with you more !!! 100% !! sorry they were gone when i was there last november !!
It's interesting to see the nostalgia for the R-27/30 these days. Back in the 80's (especially in the early 80's and of course the 70's), everyone couldn't wait for these cars to go to the big train yard in the sky. I for one, strongly disliked these cars back in the days when they ran on the Brighton line. Noisy, uncomoftable, with narrow doors (if they ever opened at all), it was the subway car taken to the utilitarian extreme. I actually liked the R-16's better, only because of its more interesting design features (didn't get to ride them much, though). Although I'm tiring of the R-40's, I will take them anyday over an R-27/30.
just my three cents worth on the R-27.
I never got to ride on these cars, but have heard a lot of bad information about them. But these Redbirds were used on the A and C lines. The R40 R44 and R46 replaced these cars in service. Why were they taken out so early? Redbirds are still used today. The R27-R30 were built at same time.
R36Gary
[I never got to ride on these cars, but have heard a lot of bad information about them. But these Redbirds were used on the A and C lines. The R40 R44 and R46 replaced these cars in service. Why were they taken out so early? Redbirds are still used today. The R27-R30 were built at same time.]
As noted elsewhere on this thread, a combination of three factors doomed the R27/30's before their time: lack of air conditioning, ill effects of deferred maintenance during the 1970's and early 1980's, and possible structural weakness. Even so, they could have been kept in service longer.
The R40/44/46 cars did not replace the R27/30's. It was the R68/68a cars that had that "honor."
But during the 70's and 80's all the equipment was in lousy shape. In the "east" the R42's were in much worse mechanical shape than the R27/30. The latter saw more mileage. When you cut an 8 car R42 into two 4 car trains, invariably one piece would fail! There were many many more instances of smoke issuing from R32 and R42 cars than R27/30's. Maybe they were a little slow, but I never had a catastrophic failure in an R27/30 (smoke, laying down).
I don't know about that. I had more problems with R27/30 non overhauled cars than with any other. There was a bulletin in 1989 that governed the installation of a Halon Fire Extinguisher in the group boxes of an R30 WH test train. It worked! Motor faults were frequently common on those cars. The R32/42s were notorious for excess power and dynamic brake, although I worked them in the north so Concourse maintainance might explain that back then. I think the R10s were reliable for motor faults, either it was live or dead but no in betweens and little smoke issuing. The R30 GOH was the better of all reliability wise.
Back in the late 60s and early 70s when the R-27/30 and the R-16 use to share trackage on the Broadway local, the former were much more reliable on the RR than the latter were on the EE. You could always count on seeing a train of R-16 EEs slowly rocking through a station out of service during rush hour, with a jammed RR behind it.
Of course that was also the time when the MTA thought preventive maintenance involved painting the cars blue and sliver and slapping `M Transit' stickers on the outside, so by the late 70s the 27/30s were starting to approach the R-16s condition (though they never got that bad).
Actually, these cars were never replaced. All of the R27's and older R30's that didn't get GOH'd in the mid 80's were retired and replaced by the R68/68A's. The R30A cars painted red ran on the eastern division BMT (J/M/L) lines only, until 1990, when they were moved to the C line. They were retired in early 1993.
I remember the R-27s and R-30s very well. The first time I rode on them was on an RR on April 30, 1967 - the same day I rode on the IND for the first time. They were still wearing their original olive drab paint with the violet-blue interior door shade. I sat right across from one of the door sets on that first ride, and fixed my gaze on the doors. They didn't grab my attention the way the blue doors on the R-32s did, though. IIRC, they even still had their original route curtains which said, RR/Broadway-4th Ave. local.
I still can't figure out why my folks decided to change from the N we took from Coney Island to that RR at 59th or 36th Sts. in Brooklyn on that memorable day.
R16 and R27/30s shared the same body design except for the storm doors R16 were the round porthole R27/30 were the larger rectangular shape but as far as the entrance and exit doors they were the same TA had to modify the motor on doors for the R16 door motors were different on R27/30s you are right about a lot of the doors not opening alot of times only one would open
The door windows on the R-16s didn't have that rubber weatherstripping on the inside (neither did the R-10s, R-12s, R-14s, R-17s, R-21s, and R-22s) while the R-27s and R-30s did. Other than that and the storm door windows, the R-16s strongly resembled the R-27/30s.
Even better - I remember as a kid riding on what I'm pretty certain were R-10s on class trips to the Museum of Natural history. This would have been around '86 or '87 I think, and I'm pretty sure the class lasted until '89 or so on the C. I *do* remember that the cars we were on were painted green. Oh yeah, and they were *loud* and had lousey doors. And drunken homeless people. I seem to remember a BAD PA system too, but that could have been another trip... My mom think's I'm crazy - I don't.
I also remember switching at Jamacia (in) and Mineola (out) for the LIRR train, and on the way back we sat in the middle of somewhere for a long time.
Funny thing is, I don't remember the museum at all (other than the less than kind thoughts I had about Heather's mom after she made us walk up and down those flights of stairs all day)
Yes, those were definatly the Westinghouse R10 cars that ran on the C line until the summer of 89. Loud doesn't even begin to describe the noise emmited by these beasts. In the summer, when the storm doors were latched open, the noise was so bad that your ears would ring after getting off the train. I could never use a walkman riding these trains, and I avoided them at all costs.
BTW, is the C line now the official "last stand" for car types facing imminent retirement? Many R1, R4 and R6 cars saw the end on the C, as well as all the remaining R10's and R30's.
I think it's a tossup between the C and the Eastern Division as to the honor of being The Line Where B Division Cars Go to Die, though the J/L/M/Z will be spared having to take the R-44s about 6-10 years from now when they're on their last legs.
Well, the C had that honor while it was a rush hour-only service. When it became an all-day operation, that distinction went away.
My memories of going to the Museum of Natural History include getting off an AA train, and having an A train of those same venerable R-10s go thundering past in blur of teal and white, or a D train of R-1/9s with the bull and pinion gears wailing away. That was in the spring of 1967. Of course, it was even more fun taking an A train and ripping past 81st St. at about 50 mph. And I never had to hold my ears, either.
I understand how you feel about the R-10s, because near the end they could be painfully loud. I remember them during their heyday when a ride on an A train was second to none. That's the way I will always remember them.
P. S. I also got a kick out of those manually operated elevators at the museum. The dinosaur exhibit was my personal favorite.
Well, let's see. We now have a car shortage on the B division where these cars ran until 10 years ago. So, with a GOH, they would be running now, probably. So the answer is YES!
162 R-30/R-30A cars were GOHd, although it wasn't as big as job as most of the other cars (Redbirds and R-32s through R-46s) got. They were done in 1985 and the cars were retired in 1993, at a time when the economy wasn't anywhere near as strong as it is now and when the fare discounts that have gone into effect since mid-1997 (and have spurred ridership) weren't even being contemplated.
David
I have commented on this topic previously. They were scrapped due to no air conditioning, service cutbacks due to declining ridership, new (R68/68A) cars being introduced and the R32/38/40/42/44/46 cars returning from GOH which reduced the down time for out of service cars. These factors "allowed" these cars to be retired before their time. I miss operating those cars. I had the "honor" of operating the last train of R30's on the BMT (M line from Bay Pkwy). I have the car numbers and exact date of the event as published in an ERA bulletin, which unforunately, is buried somewhere in my transit archives.
I wondered why the NYCTA never did any major overhauls on these cars. My thoughts are that they could've been rebuilt and retrofitted with A/C (like the R-32, 38 and IRT car classes) and they would likely be providing reliable service to this day.
Wayne
Was told in another responce that for 1 the TA considerd this to be to costly esspacially where the A/C units were concerned and the structual ridgetness of the cars since they were longer and wider they were not as strong as the smaller IRT cars
In Gene Sansone's Evolution of New York City Subways, which is published by the New York Transit Museum Press, the following reasons were given why they were retired:
Today, all 550 cars have been retired from active passenger service, they did perform one more use before the end of their useful lives. In 1991, a risk assessment analysis was performed to either scrap or mothball the fleet of 162 R30 GOH cars. Several factors contributed to the somewhat premature scraping of the R30 fleet, notably their miserable MDBF, a steady decline in subway ridership, anticipated future demand, and budget conditions.
Two more nails in the coffin were the facts that the cars did not have air conditioning and the determination that the B division spare factor could be lowered to 12% with no adverse effect on service. So there it was: the last of the painted B Division subway cars would be retired from service after the R46 cars returned from their GOH program done in Hornell, NY by MK.
After all, due to a converted bracket failure, this same R30 fleet had been temporarily removed from service in January 1990 without noticeable effect.
The decision to withdraw the R30's came in 1992 but some of their parts would live on in a sort of organ donor program. Some very valuable new components had been installed on these cars at the time of their overhaul: among them, expensive propulsion cam controllers. These nearly new parts were removed and installed on the R36 cars which still had many older components. This project pumped some much needed new blood into the aging R36 fleet, helping to increase their MDBF and thus provide a more reliable service for Flushing Line riders.
Personally, I preferred the R16's because of the porthole front window and seating arrangement. Yeah, they were noisy, dirty, and slow, but they ran at a time when everything else was falling apart. I miss em, too. And they were retired too early...........
Hey, I'm the only member of Subtalk allowed to publically display any affection for the R16 car. Please find another maligned car class to adopt as your own.
Well, I actually liked the R16s as well. They had unique interiors. Forget their marginal performance (they worked very well as locals) and electrical problems. They had actual visual charm.
Do you folks remember #6429 - the one they tried to convert into an R44? Too bad that one died on the vine.
Wayne
I thought it was an R10 that was supposed to have it's interior re-done as an R44. There's a pictre of one on this website with what looks like an R42 front welded on.
Too bad.
Along those lines, I think I'm glad I picked R11; unless someone wises up and picks the R number for the overhaul, I should be unique.
Take it easy. Look at it this way: you won't be the sole member of the R-16 fan club anymore.
I was just being sarcastic. Now I don't always have to take down the minutes of the weekly F16 fan club meetings myself.
I was just being sarcastic. Now I don't always have to take down the minutes of the weekly R16 fan club meetings myself.
If someone made up a handle, Pigs of Long Island or Cows of Royal Island or Cows of Long Island, I wouldn't mind.
some 30s did get the rebuilding that the "redbirds" get
The answer to the title is yes. The cars were in ok shape and are now needed. Werent the R30GOH consicered "redbirds"
I would certainly have considered them "Redbirds".
Some of them had a slightly different red paint scheme in the early 1970s.
Wayne
Funny, no bell rung.
I think I remember this from a post a couple of months ago. The 11-train line is supposed to be the flushing express. I like the way they put it w/ the 7. The 10 is what we know as that <5> train Bronx thru express. The 10 will run during rush hours from Nereid Avenue to Flatbush Avenue. The 8 will run as the Pehlam Bay Express. I think that line will run full time. The 12 and 13 lines will run on the 7th Avenue Subway Line. Their Destinations are unknown as of this moment or how important these lines will be. Or maybe those numbers were originally reserved for the Second Avenue Subway Line..(Scary)
Second Avenue will be BMT/IND if it is ever built.
Keep your 12 and 13... we Westsiders
are well off with our beloved 1 and 9
Who needs the 9 and Z? Skip-stop is so confusing!
Thing 1. The "12" can't be on the West Side- it's green, not red.
Thing 2. It's not "will," but "might be" or "could have been intended for." While allowances have been made, nothing is currently planned for those numbers.
Thing 3. My own approach is to use 12 with 6 for the Pelham Line; 10 for the 5-Nereid trips; and introduce a split Jerome Avenue service (4/8) with locals turning at Burnside. Each "variant" would get double the number of the "normal" service.
Except 7/11. 7 doubled is 14, not 11. Although it does make the Flushing line more convenient. (7/11. Get it?)
Yea , like , let me see,
"A" "AA"
"B" "BB"
"G" "GG"
Yea , It could work!
avid
For all of the Subtalkers who don't live in the NYC area or never got around to buying the Daily News last weekend with Railfan article, I have scanned in the page with the pictures of heypaul and his cab. It can be found at http://www.hbeck.com/images/heypaul.jpg or by clicking on the link below. I am not the greatest of scanners so the image is very large (175k).
Heypaul Picture
Enjoy,
Harry
Nice work, Harry!
I forgot who suggested a visit to the maintenance barn for New Orleans streetcars, but I thank you!!
We just returned from a trip to the Big Easy last night (our train was early arriving in Memphis--yea!). I wanted to report to the SubTalk board that we did have time to visit the shops, and it was a great experience!
The shop is located just off of the St. Charles streetcar line at Willow street. It is hard to miss because there are tracks that branch off from the St. Charles line and run directly down Willow to the shops (follow the double-railed road, Toto).
Anyhow, we were treated to an extensive tour of the shops by the manager of the building, and he even gave us commemorative posters from the opening of the Riverfront line a few years ago. Myself, along with the not-exactly-transit-fans that I was traveling with enjoyed the visit very much--a big plus!
Unfortunately, my camera self destructed while in New Orleans, so I wasn't able to get any pictures of the streetcars or Amtrak's City of New Orleans train.
But I just wanted to thank whomever made the suggestion, and reccomend it for anyone else interested in New Orleans streetcars. And it was free! :-)
Brandon
There was a potentially violent situation at the downtown IND 34th St platform (D) today about three. I don't know the whole story, but apparently an older woman got in the way, accidentally, of a couple of MTA personnel (a man and a woman) emptying the trash basket just before the escalator. There was a loud noise, the man loudly threw something down to the platform while yelling something, and he may have gotten physical with the woman, since the two young men in front of me said something like, "if that was my mother you pushed, you would have been on the tracks, !@#hole".
The two guys continued admonishing the MTA cleaners as they were ascending the escalator; apart from some back and forth between both parties, that was the end of it. No cops in the area.
This was the first time I've seen MTA station cleaning personnel in the face of anyone; token clerks, yeah, but not the station cleaners...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Redbird lovers are all around us.
>>>Redbird lovers are all around us. <<<
You went over my head with that one. Want to elaborate?
Yeah, really! What the f--k is that supposed to mean?
Peace,
Andee
Perhaps that Rubavituphilia* is what caused the unbalanced behavior of the cleaners. Therefore, Rubavituphilia* is a mental disorder.
*=I made this up. Are there any words using both Greek and Latin roots simultaneously? Where the roots ARE NOT similar in both languages?
Diotesserantkayekatophobia* is closely related to Rubavituphilia. Both are characterized by an illogical attachement to the past and stubborn resistance to change.
*=Can someone please teach me how to count in Greek and Latin? I also want to know how to count past a centillion.
After a bad accident, such as the one on the Woodlawn line some years ago involving a intoxicated train operator, the cars that were salvaged from the wreck, did the TA changed the car numbers once the trains were put back in service or did the numbers remained the same.Someone told if a train was involved in a major accident, the TA would change the numbers of the cars that were involved in a well publicized accident.
Doesn't apply to the "hit a pillar
and split in two" R-62 (#1391) from
the Woodlawn IRT--- that baby was seen
roaming past 167th prior to the
Farewell Tour of Polo Grounds.
NO - #1391 was the victim of the firebomb attack in 1994. It suffered some interior damage but was back in service in a few weeks.
#1437 was the R62 that was split in two. #1440 was also heavily damaged due to contact with the pillars.
Wayne
Both cars were scrapped
re. R62 #1437 and #1440
Yes, scrapped they were. They were cut up right on the spot, IIRC. Actually, the half-shells (more likely those of #1440 but the plaques are said to be missing) are still sitting out at the south end of the Jerome Avenue IRT yard.
#1439, #1435 and #1436, all sporting various degrees of damage, await their fates at 207th Street.
Wayne
Actually, the 2 half cars are in Concourse yard & not Jerome yard.
OK - I wasn't sure where the "B" division yard ended and the "A" division one began. SO - I refer to "A" division as Jerome yard and "B" as Concourse Yard.
Are these two hulks actually in the "B" division yard? I tried spotting them from Bedford-Park IRT station but could not through the vegetation.
Wayne
You can see them from the Bedford Park Blvd Overpass. They're sitting at the far end of the yard where the flyover rises up to meet the el. You will also notice an R-12/14 pair in the yard - car 35802 (work motor) and 5851 sitting there and yet they don't seem to be going anywhere. Is there any hope for one or both of these cars to be preserved?
-Stef
Although A division lays up trains in Concourse Yard, it is a B division yard. The A division yard, referred to as Jerome Yard or Mosholou Yard is located to the north, under Tracey Towers. It's only visible from the entrance on Paul Avenue.
I have a picture of two R62 #1437 & #1440. Check out this picture i took on Jan 8, 2000 with R14 unknown number & two R62s cars.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
David - what is that roadway/ovrerpass in the background of the photo?
Wayne
It a parking lot for NYCT near Jerome Av & where i standing it on roadway but it close & open to people walk over to school.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
The photo is very dark but based on the angle of the tracks, it appears to have been shot from the Bedford Park Blvd. Bridge while facing south. In the background would then be Jerome Avenue as it turns slightly west at that point. There's also an obscure road called Minerva Street in there somewhere.
[#1439, #1435 and #1436, all sporting various degrees of damage, await their fates at 207th Street.]
You mean, after more than eight years, no one's figured out whether to repair or scrap these cars? That's just plain ridiculous. The top-ranking person responsible for that situation should be re-engineered on the spot ... and in an ideal world, he'd forfeit all pension rights, but I guess that's too much to hope for.
They're scrap. The frames are gone. They're probably being held as evidence for civil suits.
-Hank
I'm quite sure that the decision has been made. However legal considerations must be taken into account too. In the mid 80s, car #1000 was involved in a fatal accident. In 1991 it was sent to Hornell NY for overhaul. In 1994, lawyers for 11 different companies wanted to examine the original car because they were named in the lawsuit.
R-46 #1000 or R-6(?) #1000?
Nick
It would have to have been R46 #1000; R-6-1 #1000 was long gone to scrap by then; probably sometime around 1975 or 1976; maybe even sooner than that.
I'd guess that was a 12-9 accident as the only R46 I show wrecked are #1054 and #941.
Wayne
What if it was just hypothetical?
Hypothetical? Probably not in this case, as Train Dude has inside information. Cars ending in -00 HAVE been involved in accidents
before; to wit: BU Gate Car #100, R38 #4000, R40 #4200, R62 #1400 are the ones that come to mind. The accident involving R46 #1000, assuming it DID occur was not a wreck for it is now car #5508, a number I've seen several times.
Wayne
Nobody ever told the -00 BMT standards about that.-)
No, but someone told #2299 (well, that's ALMOST 2300) and she took out a row of pillars near 8 Avenue on the Canarsie line, came away with a dent right in the center (which notched the roof and broke the little white lite bulb over the door). Her frame withstood the stroke and the pillars suffered heavily for their being in the way. I don't know if they fixed her though. There was quite a bit of sheet metal damage.
Wayne
Nope! They are either scrapped or repaired but the numbers are not changed. One exception would be if two wrecked cars were used to make one. The other number change that comes to mind is the case of car #3348. That began it's life as an odd number car (3659 I think). It was converted to a converter car after the TA ended up with two odds too many and two evens short due to accidents.
Incidently, I don't know how true it is but I heard that the car that Colin Furgeson shot up on the LIRR was re-numbered before it was returned to service.
[Nope! They are either scrapped or repaired but the numbers are not changed.]
I suppose the rationale is that few people (other than railfans) pay any attention at all to car numbers, so retaining the number wouldn't be likely to bother anyone. In fact, the "scrapped and wrecked cars" section lists one car that had been involved in two incidents yet still bears the same number.
Contrast the TA's approach with that of the airlines. Whenever there's a fatal crash, the flight number is "retired." That's surely because air passengers DO pay attention to flight numbers.
[Whenever there's a fatal crash, the flight number is "retired." That's surely because air passengers DO pay attention to flight numbers.]
I was surprised that the LIRR never changed the time of the 5:33PM New York to Hicksville train after the Colin Ferguson "incident" at Merillon Ave. in December, 1993. I wonder if they changed the official train number?
I was on a flight 800. I noticed. I was afraid
TWA had a flight 800 in the mid 70's that had a accident, why didn't they retire that number before the OTHER TWA flight 800 desaster in LI?
they prob. just moved it to a different route... TWA will neverhave a Flt 800 from JFK to Paris... but it may turn up on a different Route someday
Yes, it was changed from #9892 to #9946.
Wayne
Wayne, you never cease to amaze me. Thank you for the info.
Just a reminder that the tour is in the morning. There are GO's in effect. Give extra time to get there.
63rd Drive Station
10:30AM
By the main token booth
If you can, Bring a candy bar and a hardhat.
-Mark
Why they can extend C service to 207th Street, because alot of customers could get access to 207th Street for A/C because I don't know why do C trains have to terminate at 168th Street because sometimes theirs alot of delays waiting for the C at 168th Street
Huh? The C goes to 168 because that's where the local tracks end. You don't need to have 2 lines serving those last 5 stations. A service is also more frequent anyway.
-Hank
There is more A service than C service in the first place......you are asking for 2 services with 3 south terminals (Euclid, Lefferts, & Far Rock) to share 2 tracks at 207 St. And many times side signs on R32/38 A trains have to be changed over at the terminal. Your idea is a dispatchers nightmare!
A service is perfectly adequate above 168th St. Adding the C would cause bottlenecks. The 168th St. station has been the traditional terminal for all 8th Ave locals, and it was designed for this purpose.
Actually, it was designed as the terminal for expresses, with the locals continuing. There are no flying junctions like at Bedford Park Boulevard, separate platforms like at the World Trade Center. Or lower level turnaround tracks and yard leads like at 71st-Continental Avenue.
What would be the point of terminating locals before expresses? Isn't the whole idea of an express to go as fast and far as possible, so it can get people who live farther out to their destinations faster.
So the express picks up passengers, then when it's near fill, it becomes express and another train picks up locals. In a perfect world everything would be four tracked. Do you think it's better for the express train to terminate first and the local to continue?
The Q terminates first at Brighton Beach and the D goes on to Coney Island
And, if you can read a message a posted some minutes ago in the alphabetical riding thread, I decried this. The same can be said of the 5's termination at 238 with the 2 going on, but it is only one stop.
And probably due to capacity limits at 241 Street.
The 5 terminates at 238St because it goes stright into 239St yard, causing less delays.......
3TM
The Q terminates before the D in Brooklyn.
The tracks coming northbound suggest otherwise. The express tracks feed the outside tracks, where as the locals feed the middle. The crossover above 168th is designed to be used for trains entering the middle (express) tracks. Why this layout was chosen over a more convential terminal (like Forest Hills or Church Ave.) is beyond me. Apparently, the local trains were never supposed to go above 168th St, and the stations north of here have been exclusively service by the A express train since it opened in 1932.
When was the last time you were there? From the upper level at 145st, the express tracks drop below the local. At 168, the express comes up on the OUTSIDE, and the local are on the inside. The local tracks then lead on to the 174st Yard, where they turn the trains.
-Hank
i just received a highly classified report, only for
the eyes of psychotics, that flash photography and
cell phone use in the r142's cause a sudden
transient in the sensitive control equipment---
it appears that the cars are very uptight about
their appearance, and are shy about having their
picture taken... also cell phone usage makes the
cars central processing unit think that you are
talking about them to your friends...
behavioral engineering psychologists are working on
solving a serious problem that developed during
testing--- after several railfans took flash
pictures of the cars, the hal 9000 computer began to
run amok --- it tricked dave into leaving the car to
fix a faulty radio antenna--- once dave left the
car, hal would not allow him to return--- an
engineer on board was able to disable most of hal's
circuits--- when control was regained of hal, he was
making the groaning sounds of a low V---
for the last couple of weeks, my handle, password, and e-mail address have come up automatically...
it got so i forget my password and almost forgot my handle
this morning, the entries were all missing
i remembered my handle and e-mail address, but forgot my password... all i could remember that i always saw ******** listed as the password, so i tried that, and had no problem
a couple of times recently, when i went to post a new message, not only would my handle,password, and e-mail address come up, but the subject heading would be filled in also--- frequently the heading was more interesting than what i was going to post about--- as in just now--- i didn't intend to talk about password problems--- who figures out the titles of these posts?--- has this happened to anyone else?
Paul, if you forget your password just click on where it says "forget you password?" at the top. For some reason all the cookies disappear from time to time giving you a blank screen. This happens on all sites that have cookies every so often.
Every so often,
we all must bow our head
to the Holy Pirmann.
I'm unfortunately no expert in cookie programming. If you saw the webbbs code you'd be surprised it worked at all. I'm trying to fix these things as they are reported but they're not easy bugs to track down.
-Dave
Come on Dave, not bugs, "Undocumented Features" you mean...
>>not easy bugs to track down
I feel your pain.
And while we are on the topic of the bulletin board, I have noticed that the SEARCH facility currently only supports searches by date within the years 1996, 1997 and 1998 (not even 1999). (I also don't think that "SEVERAL EONS" works corrently either!) Perhaps these can be updated also.
Several Eons works, but oldest messages are removed from the board when the amount of messages reaches 5000. When I post this, another message will be deleted!
Thanks for pointing that out. I never noticed. As for the Several Eons thing, the dates are mostly irrelevant because the messages don't go back that far. If the system were to retain everything it would be intolerably slow as each and every message were parsed for threading information every time the index is loaded. The system only retains the last 5,000 messages (which brings us back to 2/28/2000). Maybe that could be increased to 10,000 with not too much harm but there's no way the entire archive can be searched this way - you'd all complain about the lack of speed...
-Dave
Sounds like your software is designed for a more powerfull server than you're using.
Well, I think the actual problem is that the webbbs software is not designed to deal with such large quantities of messages in an efficient manner.
-Dave
Why on all subway cars do see on designation signs the word "special".
What it means?
They would use this designation for 2 reasons, that I can see, #1 a train being rerouted on a GO that has no destination sign for the particular destination, and #2 a train being used for a movie/TV shoot.
Peace,
Andee
On the Broad Street Line, the blue marker lights are used to designate a "special" train, which runs regular express between Fern Rock and Walnut, but then runs express down to Pattison. I have yet to comprehend why they run "express" from Walnut to Pattison if there are no express tracks.
The point of that train is to encourage people to take SEPTA to the Sports Complex. I remember that was such a slow ride when I railfanned down to Pattison in August.
The extended expresses are for stadium and sports events at the Vets Stadium/First Union Spectrum/Center. They run on the 'local' tracks south of Walnut (since there are no express tracks) and are merely to take the loads off the regular service while providing a measure of quicker service. And this they do, taking about 6-7 minutes to go from Walnut to Pattison as opposed to the 8-10 minutes for the usual local trains.
The Olney (now Fern Rock)-Walnut expresses operated in a similar fashion when this service first began, since there were no continuous express tracks north of Erie. They would slow just a little and blast their horns when entering the local stations. I don't recall any incidents associated with this. (The express tracks weren't completed until 1988-89). The stadium expresses run in much the same way.
The Broad St subway may be one of the last transit operations anywhere that has marker lights that are meaningful to service. Even though this is explained to riders on schedules, maps, etc, I'll bet that most people don't really know what they mean.
That's a lot of time that they take off. I didn't think it would be that much faster. But when there is a dispatching problem, my guess is that the expresses stop at every station, because skipping stations would just make the traffic worse.
Wow, I never knew that the express tracks were that new! I guess that explains the fancy welded rail on those track segments. But was Olney always a 4 track station? The tracks seem much older there.
Oh yes, and what is the purpose of the express skipping N. Phila? All it seems to do is back up traffic and make peak dispatching tougher, in that southbound Spurs are put close to as they leave Olney, so it would be more even when they arrive in Girard. But if it takes a while for the s.b. express to get out of Erie, the spur will sit idle on the tracks near Hunting Park.
I can't picture most daily riders *not* knowing what the marker lights mean, but I may be wrong.
The real value of the expresses can be seen after events, when huge crowds pour down the subway steps at Pattison. Often this happens when subway headways are 12+ minutes, thus it is imperative to fill trains and move them out. They aren't all expresses but many of them are, and it's amazing how this works well to disperse the crowds. It was even more amazing when the old cars prowled the line - trains would pull up from the pocket tracks at the south end (the tracks have platforms, but they were curtained off), open up, swallow crowds, and move on.
The stadium-bound trains move at fixed intervals and the schedule depends on the event. Generally the schedule works such that a local and express pull into Walnut-Locust almost simultaneously and the express moves out ahead. Even in the worst days of the old cars, I don't recall ever hearing about a breakdown that forced an express to run local.
Olney was always a 4-track station but the express tracks didn't extend much further south than a couple of crossovers just beyond the platforms. Since there are no express platforms between Erie and Olney, most people assumed the tracks were always there. They weren't.
The original express service established in '83-'84, when the first K cars arrived, stopped only at Walnut-Locust, City Hall, Girard, Erie and Olney, skipping former 'express' stations at Race-Vine, Spring Garden and North Phila. I had the pleasure to ride this version several times and it was quite a ride. Some trains began to be extended to Fern Rock in peak hours due to all the transferring going on at Olney (itself already a busy place), and during Railworks Fern Rock became the permanent terminal for express service. Spring Garden was added in the early 90's and Race-Vine is a relatively recent addition (Spring Garden due to Community College and the State Office Building, Race-Vine I believe mainly because of the Convention Center). I don't think North Phila will get express service any time soon.
I can recall way back when, being with a 'seasoned' subway rider (I was about 8 or 9), boarding a southbound afternoon peak train with yellow markers at Columbia. I noted to this 'seasoned' rider that we needed to change at Girard since we were going south on Broad and this was a Ridge train. The 'seasoned' rider, a well-intended but not-related adult, told me not to worry, that the locals and expresses all went to the same place - besides, we had a seat on the local and would probably not be so lucky on the express. I protested that the yellow markers meant Ridge trains, but this did not impress my guardian. I sat quietly as we passed Fairmount, Spring Garden and Race-Vine (now Chinatown), but you can imagine her disdain when we pulled into 8th-Market station. The young boy knew a little after all and he got his first ride on the Ridge Spur that day. The 'seasoned' rider was a little more attentive to markers once we yo-yo'ed back to Girard and crossed over to the southbound side to try once again to go south on Broad.
If the origional express only dates back to the days of the Kawasaki cars, then what was the service that used the inner tracks (between Erie and Walnut) considered, before the K cars came to be.
Congratulations on your first Ridge Spur ride. That was quite a way to get it.
Speaking of marker lights, have you ever noticed that Ridge trains sometimes change their marker light to green after they get off the spur? This doesn't seem that great to me, in that if one sees a green light, one would think that the train coming is 5 cars, but may be in for a surprise when he has to run down the platform because the coming train is only 2 cars. Or if you are waiting at Girard, and going to N. Phila, it will give you advance warning about whether to take the train.
Last chance to see the program "Digging In" on the Discovery channel, today (Sunday) at 2pm ET. Some good segments on tunneling in general, with one discussing the NYC 63d St. connector project and another on the Washington DC Metro.
Thank you for the info, just checked my local programming and it is on in 20 minutes here. Will sit and watch
If all us redbird lovers were
to unite one day and step onto
a spiffy r142 with our cell phones
in hand.. we'd soon get the signals
all screwy and have the system baffled..
behold.. we'd then be able to say we
were the ones who "TALKED" the r142's
out of the business... now THAT is a plan!!
RedbirdsNation
Your Redbird Jihad will not succeed. One day one of your happy little rustbirds will detach from its chassis and that will be the end of that. Declared too dangerous to use. HA HA HA HA!
At least redbirds are AMERICAN made and not stamped with made in japan RIGHT BACK AT YA
What's that stench???....
Ohhhh.. PIGS just got grilled and roasted..
Cheers2Redbird
Hey 1 south ferry 9 feel like going for some eggs and BACON or maybe a HAM sandwich
I don't care. If American companies can't make a good product to compete with the Japanese, then screw them. Nationalism should not influence equipment purchases.
BTW, all cars are assembled in the United States, and most of the cars are made in Canada, not Japan. Turn on your brain before you put your mouth in gear.
The Bombardier cars are being assembled in Upstate New York and Vermont with componants from many locations. The body Shells come from Brazil, I believe. The Kawasaki cars are built in Japan, and are almost fully assembled there. They're 'finished' in Yonkers.
Oh, there are no railcar manufacturers capable of building passenger cars in the United States any longer. If all those 'Made in the USA' cars were so great, the companies that built them wouldn't have either folded (St. Louis, Pullman) or gotten out of the passenger car business (ACF). There are a few specialty remanufacturers (Rader Railcar and MK)
-Hank
THe only reason I can think of these companys folding is because they lost the TA contract to build the cars TA goes for the cheapest bid to build cars
No - the reason why some folded (Pullman Standard comes to mind) is BECAUSE they got the TA contracts. They delivered cars with major problems that required them, as the manufacturer, to correct at their own expense. It was this mounting expense that caused them to either fold completely or exit the passenger car manufacturing business.
ACF is still in business but does not manufacture passenger cars any longer. St Louis Car and Pressed Steel are out of busines entirely. Budd was absorbed by a German firm and may make freight cars (and the trailer portion of tractor trailers). I think even Morrison-Knudsen (MKO) recently filed for bankruptcy and doesn't remanufacture passenger cars any longer.
--Mark
What I was trying to explain was the NYCTA had to be one of the biggest contracts espaially for st louis car since the TA has been buying cars from them for years. Also concidering NYCTA is the largest subway in the U.S which I'm sure you know. But did you know that st louis car built the PA-1 for the path system in the early 60s and these cars are also in service today
They also didn't have dozens of major defects when delivered which made them largely unserviceable. That's why they do such extensive testing today.
-Hank
That's what I thought you would say. That's right let some other country get rich off american dollars
Gotta love those 'buy american' stickers on many buses in Manhattan and the Bronx. Especially since the buses are all built by foreign firms. American manufacturing declined from the 60's until the late 80s, and is still on the rebound. It's almost impossible to find american-made consumer goods. Televisions are made in Mexico or CHina. Radios from Japan. Hair dryers and electric mixers from ROC. Canadian manufacturing has been intertwined with American manufacturing for decades. Anything built in Canada is considered built in the USA (the Parts Content laws for auto manufacturing consider US and Canadian content as 'North American' content.) Oh, you can blame the profit-hungry American corporations for exporting the manufacture of most good, and the unions and corporations for the the rest of the decline. It took until the early 80s, and the Chrysler Corporation before the trade unions woke up and smelled their fat in the fire. And thus began the turnaround of manufacturing in the US. But most industries still won't come back, as the US is moving from a manufacturing economy to a service economy.
-Hank
I really don't care.
I assume we should continue to shun the British because of that whole revolution thing.
The people involved in "running" World War II are all either dead or out of power. Their descendants should not be held accountable.
But their ideas are not. Witness the rise of the neo-Nazis and other anti-Semites in Germany and the continuing denial, in the Japanese schools, of the Rape of Nanking and other Japanese atrocities. According to Japanese history texts, the United States was the aggressor nation in World War II and the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was self-defense!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Which is wrong of course. But the citizenship should not be held accountable. In the case of Japanese schools that you mentioned, I'm not familiar with what and how they teach, that doesn't make it right though, and that IS the fault of the MODERN government.
If that was truth then amtrak heriatage cars, would not be runing
in service today.
I'm not familiar with Amtrak equipment, fill me in.
Amtrak heritage cars where built in the 1940's and are sill in service today, in fact amtrak is refurbishing alot of these cars.
I am sure that these cars have run more miles than the redbirds.
The Heritage fleet is made up of stainless steel cars. Since Budd was the only manufacturer in America that built cars of stainless steel prior to the 1960s (if I'm wrong, someone please correct me), it stands to reason that all of these cars are Budds. If the R-32s are any indication, the cars have stainless steel framing. This means it's likely that these cars are, structurally, in better condition than the Redbirds. The Heritage fleet, like the rest of Amtrak's coaches, are also not self-propelled, which means that there's less equipment aboard to be rebuilt/replaced than on your typical subway car.
David
Heck with all the accidents amtrak's been having in the past 5yrs they probley have more lawsuits pending then carter got liver pills better rehab the old equipment don't think they can afford any new passenger cars
Considering that none of the recent Amtrak collisions wer the fault of Amtrak (in fact, the only one that CAN be attributed fully to them that comes to mind is the derailment at the Portal Drawbridge a few years back)
The majority of Amtrak wrecks are due to collisions with vehicles at grade crossings, caused by idiots too stupid to pay attention to the gates, lights, and oncoming 500 ton train.
The Sunset derailment in Louisiana was caused by a boat which struck a CSX bridge.
-Hank
Reguadless of the fact do you really belive that none of these people are not going to try to bring a lawsuit agienst amtrak I find that very hard to beleive spacially the people that were seriously injured
Sure they will. And Amtrak, with the feds backing them, would likely settle quickly, and admit no wrongdoing. Typically, as John Bredin will tell you (if I get my explanation right), when you're injured and decide to sue after an accident, you name EVERYONE. The owner of the train, the track, the gates, the road, the truck, the driver, the train crew...everyone. In some car accidents, you may even name a spouse or other loved one. As you go through the discovery process, you wind up dropping parties to the suit, until you feel you've got the responsible party or parties.
-Hank
Yes I agree but the company itself is still going to loose I would say a signifigant amount of money. Like insurance cost and loss of equipment alone is almost enough to put them in the red
#7864-7865 appears to be headed for just such a fate, judging by the amount of oxide appearing around the sills. A sad fate indeed for a fine subway train, which has given forty-one years of yeoman service.
Wayne
YOU SCREW WITH MY R142s AND WE'LL HAVE PROBLEMS! THERE WILL BE TROUBLE TROUBLE TROUBLE!
Trevor
I remember taking a Sunday trip 30 years ago out to Oyster Bay on the LIRR. The particular train running that day was made up of old PENN-CENTRAL silverside long distance coaches that were in service before the AMTRAK takeover. How many of these cars did the LIRR have and when were they retired from service ?
KING SOLOMON
Don't know the amount. They had some Observation cars , used for club car service as well as coaches. Some had names like Montauk ...
I think they went to Metro North deisel service , then , I don't know
avid
The two cars that went from LIRR to Metro-North were the former Lackawanna (and later Erie-Lackawanna) "Phoebe Snow" observations numbered 789-790 on the E-L. They were 2072 and 2073 on the LIRR and carried the names "Aquebogue" and "Asharoken".
LIRR did also have some ex-Pennsy heavyweight parlor cars that carried names; "Montauk" was one of them. These cars were retired in the late 160's and replaced by ex-New Haven streamlined sleepers (with the stainless steel siding), as well as some ex-Pennsy smooth-side sleepers. And there was one ex-C&O/B&O square end observation (B&O "Nappanee" which became LIRR 2000 "Jamaica" -- the second car to carry that name and number. The ex-NH and PRR cars carried duplicate names from the LIRR heavyweight parlor car fleet as well as some additional not-used names. All the names were of Indian (uh, Native American) origin; most could be found somewhere on Long Island.
Yes , you jogged my fogged memory about the Montauk, thank you very much. I didn't know the history of the rest in such detail .Again thanks.
Where are they now? Any info?
avid
The LIRR had cars 529-543 that were originally New York Central. They started running on the LIRR in late 1967 on a Port Jefferson to Jamaica run known as the "Silver Streak". They were all retired by 1973. The train was pulled by Alco C-420 #207 for the first week, it had its front pilot painted silver, which really clashed with its grey and orange paint scheme.
Car 530 was different that the rest -- it had a bar & lounge area inside, and its window arrangement was slightly different.
529 was Budd 1947-vintage coach, 531-543 were 1944 Pullman-Standard
529 - ex-NYC 2938
530 - ex-NYC ????
531 - ex-NYC ???? (3008, 3025, 3040, 3043, 3044 not accounted for)
532 - ex-NYC 3049
533 - ex-NYC 3063
534 - ex-NYC 3067
535 - ex-NYC 3073
536 - ex-NYC 3075
537 - ex-NYC 3084
538 - ex-NYC 3101
539 - ex-NYC 3126
540 - ex-NYC 3133
541 - ex-NYC 3136
542 - ex-NYC 3147
543 - ex-NYC 3149
As for why the cars received those numbers on the LIRR, it had to do with the fact they were second hand, and all the cars in that number series went through some degree of rebuilding. Here's the rest of that "series" if you want to call it one:
7501-7505 were ex-NYC heavyweight parlors made into LIRR coaches
8506-8513 were ex-Lackawanna heavyweight coaches
8514-8516 were ex-Reading heavyweight coaches
8517-8522 were ex-Delaware & Hudson heavyweight coaches
8523-8528 were ex-Pennsylvania P70 coaches
529-543 were ex-New York Central streamlined coaches.
Note that the last three digits of the cars were in sequence on all this second-hand equipment.
As someone who used the Main Line alot in the late 60's and early 70's I do not remember any stainless steel cars. I guess they're right when they say the memory's the first thing to go!!!!!
Does any one remember the EX Kansas city southern and Union Pacific cars on the LIRR. I went on a fan trip in the early 70's when the LIRR aquired those cars. Time fades memories, What happened to those cars?
There is a great picture of the KCS coaches in the book, "Diesels of the Sunrise Trail" by John Scala, on page 123. The cars are pulled by C-420 224 coming east through West Islip in 1968.
There were 15 ex-Kansas City Southern coaches, and I think four or five ex-KCS pullmans that were used as parlors on the LIRR. The coaches became LIRR 8554-8568. Not sure of the pullman details.
The two UP cars were UP 6207 and UP 6208. I believe they were lounge cars, and though I'm not sure of their numbers on the LIRR, one of them had the name "Tuckahoe". The other one also began with a "T".
Not sure of their fate after LIRR had them. However, MANY of the ex-PRR, NH, etc. cars did go directly to scrappers (Naporano was one of them).
One of the ex-KCS cars, I believe, has found its way to North Carolina and is part of the second Piedmont consist, or may be the car that is being refitted for "executive" service in the North Carolina fleet. They have two ex-KCS cars, IIRC, but the other one came to them via the IC and is part of the original Piedmont consist.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They ran out of Hunters Point , the 4:30ish cannon ball to Speonk as the fog slowly clears.
avid
There is a great picture of the Silver Streak at Smithtown in the book, "Diesels of the Sunrise Trail" by John Scala, on page 122.
I just remembered, besides the ex-New York Central cars, the LIRR also had five ex-Florida East Coast cars that were also stainless steel sides.
Four of the ex-FEC cars were coaches and one was an observation. The observation was set up for mid-train use and was used as a coach from what I remember; it waa a square-ended observation.
I know on the FEC they were named and not numbered; two of the names were "Bunnell" and "Homestead". They were numbered 8569-8573 on the LIRR (following 8554-8568 for the 15 ex-Kansas City Southern cars the LIRR bought).
In case anyone is looking for one of the new Bombardier cars coming to SEPTA, a few are already here. At least four have been in operation on the Thorndale "Great Valley Flyer" runs, generally with an older Bombardier cab unit. I noticed one of the new cars outside Overbrook shop on the Yellowbird trip last week.
Interestingly enough, the new cars have the dark window treatment with the SEPTA red/blue belt beneath. I guess the order was too far along to change to the new red/blue stripe to be placed in the window area on all Silverliners, a la car 299.
The Metro newspaper has been available from honor boxes for just over a month now (still not on vehicles, waiting for technical difficulties with dispensers to be overcome). It's a nice little paper, similar to USA Today in its short, 'blurby' content. I try to get one when I can. Of specific interest to transit fans is Page 8 which contains various SEPTA news items. This past week there was a story on the history of Philadelphia carbarns. A week or so back a story on the new Bombardier cars appeared. Hopefully its trends and successes will continue.
It's possible to ride the NYC subway in alphabetical order. Don't know how long it would take, but you might be able to do it in 6-8 hours. You need a fun pass or weekly metrocard, and you have to ride during the week during the daytime. Hey, people try to ride the entire system in 24 hours, here's a unique twist on it.
--Board the northbound A train south of Columbus Circle.
--Change for the northbound B at Columbus Circle.
--Change for the southbound C at 125th Street.
--Change for the southbound D at Columbus Circle.
--Change for the Queens-bound E at 7th Avenue.
--Change for the Queens-bound F at 5th Avenue, Lex or 23rd Street.
--Change for the Brooklyn-bound G at Queens Plaza.
--Using your fun pass or weekly Metrocard, get off the G at Broadway and walk to the Hewes Street station. Board the Queens-bound J.
--Change for the northbound L at Eastern Parkway.
--Change for the Manhattan/Brooklyn-bound M at Myrtle Ave/Wyckoff Ave.
--Change for the Coney-Island bound N at Pacific Street.
--Change for the Manhattan-bound R at 36th Street.
--Change for the Times Square Shuttle (S) at Times Square.
If the G transferred to the J within-station it would be a cleaner ride, but you can still do this on one fare only...
www.forgotten-ny.com
---
Yikes! I keep forgetting about that damn Q, since I never ride it.
Well, the only way to fit the Q in would be to change from the N to the Q at Pacific Street, ride it to Prospect Park (if there's a crossover at 7th Avenue, use that) reverse course and then take a northbound Q to Atlantic Ave/Pacific St., and get the R there...
www.forgotten-ny.com
What about the Z?
Wayne
[What about the Z?]
Get off the J at Myrtle, and wait for a Z to take you to Eastern Parkway.
That isn't alphabetical Unless the Alphabet of the Subway goes that way. In my opinion, the J and Z are the same. Same with the 1 and 9.
Don't count the Z, since it's merely a skip stop version of the J.
The Q is also an express version of the D, but it does diverge from the D toward the end of its run, and it doesn't share a Coney Island terminal, so I'll count the Q.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Well, the only way to fit the Q in would be to change from the N to the Q at Pacific Street, ride it to Prospect Park (if there's a crossover at 7th Avenue, use that) reverse course and then take a northbound Q to Atlantic Ave/Pacific St., and get the R there...]
If you wanted to avoid doubling back on the same train, you could take the N from Pacific Street all the way to Stillwell, take the D from Stillwell to Brighton Beach, and then take the Q to Atlantic, where you'll change to the R at Pacific. While that would entail riding the D twice, I see that as a minor transgression as the first ride on the D would have been very brief.
Once again, that is not alphabetical.
>>>If you wanted to avoid doubling back on the same train, you could take the N from Pacific Street all the
way to Stillwell, take the D from Stillwell to Brighton Beach, and then take the Q to Atlantic, where you'll
change to the R at Pacific. While that would entail riding the D twice, I see that as a minor transgression
as the first ride on the D would have been very brief.<<<
Can't, if you want to ride the trains in strict alphabetical order; so you can't insert the D between the N and the Q. Gotta have discipline, and besides, a trip all the way to Coney would unduly lengthen the trip.
[>>>If you wanted to avoid doubling back on the same train, you could take the N from Pacific Street all the way to Stillwell, take the D from Stillwell to Brighton Beach, and then take the Q to Atlantic, where you'll change to the R at Pacific. While that would entail riding the D twice, I see that as a minor transgression
as the first ride on the D would have been very brief.<<<
Can't, if you want to ride the trains in strict alphabetical order; so you can't insert the D between the N and the Q. Gotta have discipline, and besides, a trip all the way to Coney would unduly lengthen the trip.]
If trip length weren't a concern, and avoiding doubling-back were important, you could walk from the N at Stillwell to the Q at Brighton Beach. It's a fairly long but do-able hike.
If the Q went to Stillwell as it should (along with the D, I doubt that the tracks the D uses are anywhere near capacity), then this would not be a problem.
IF, Always If. If the Queen had Balls she would be the Queen
In Greenwich Village, maybe!
Bob Sklar
IF, Always If. If the Queen had Balls she would be theKing
To add the Q:
From the M at Pacific, change for a Northbound N. Then change at DeKalb for a Northbound Q. Then change at 34th for a Northbound R. Then change at Times Square for S Shuttle (which is cheating, since it's the IRT "S", not the BMT/IND "S").
Again, the solution to this problem: Transfer from the M
to the N at...
Canal Street.
Then, the Q at DeKalb and the R at Atlantic/Pacific. I
can't believe none of you caught this!
I thought the Q bypassed DeKalb, like its brother, the D.
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, the Q and the D can't bypass DeKalb, because the bypass track doesn't connect with the Brighton line. Only the B and the N normally can bypass DeKalb, and of course, the N can't do that now because half of the Manny B is out and there's no connection anymore between the bypass track and the Montague St. tunnel.
Don't have time to read the entire thread. How about from the southbound M:
Transfer to the s/b N at Canal St. upper level;
Transfer to the s/b Q at DeKalb;
Then transfer to the n/b R at Pacific St.
Boy, am I stupid. After posting my suggestions for adding the Q and the Z to the mix, it dawned on the that the lines were meant to be ridden in alphabetical order. Duuuh!
Switching gears a bit, riding the IRT lines in numerical order would be a piece of cake in comparison:
Start with a South Ferry-bound 1 north of 96th Street.
Change to a Brooklyn-bound 2 at 96th.
Change to a Brooklyn-bound 3 at Chambers.
Change to a Bronx-bound 4 at Fulton (paying another fare if the transfer's still closed.
Change to a Bronx-bound 5 at Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall.
Change to a Bronx-bound 6 at 14th Street-Union Square.
Change to a Times-Square bound 7 at Grand Central.
Change to a Bronx-bound 9 at Times Square.
Note that the starting point and the transfer points among the 1, 2 and 3 could be varied to some extent.
Didn't I read someplace that the TS Shuttle is known as the #8 only in some obscure MTA nomenclature? If so, the Shuttle can be inserted in the numbered scheme, and in fact, it may work better here than in the lettered list, because the TS shuttle is IRT specs as opposed to BMT/IND gauge.
Oops..gotta watch out..I'm obsessing a little there. Next thing you know, NY Daily News reporters will start saying I have no life.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[Didn't I read someplace that the TS Shuttle is known as the #8 only in some obscure MTA nomenclature? If so, the Shuttle can be inserted in the numbered scheme, and in fact, it may work better here than in the lettered list, because the TS shuttle is IRT specs as opposed to BMT/IND gauge.]
I hadn't heard that about the Shuttle. In fact, there was a proposal a few years back to designate rush-hour 6 expresses the 8 train.
Who cares what the Daily News thinks. They're to busy to notice because they're too budy kissing Hillary Clinton's you-know-what.
So long as you assume one S (from Times Square to Grand Central) equals all Ss, thereby ignoring the Franklin and Rockaway shuttles, you could do it, though sticking one IRT line in among all the IND and BMT lines is a little bit of a dodge.
The switch from the S to the Z is impossible, no matter which route you take or which shuttle you use, but if you eliminate all the shuttles and just go by the main lines, the R to Z transfer could be made at Canal Street.
>>>>So long as you assume one S (from Times Square to Grand Central) equals all Ss, thereby ignoring the
Franklin and Rockaway shuttles, you could do it, though sticking one IRT line in among all the IND and BMT
lines is a little bit of a dodge. <<<
Agreed: see my earlier post to Peter.
>>>The switch from the S to the Z is impossible, no matter which route you take or which shuttle you use, but
if you eliminate all the shuttles and just go by the main lines, the R to Z transfer could be made at Canal
Street. <<
It's settled: remove the TS Shuttle from my earlier list: change to the Z, either direction, from the R at Canal Street.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Revised alphabetical course:
--Board the northbound A train south of Columbus Circle.
--Change for the northbound B at Columbus Circle.
--Change for the southbound C at 125th Street.
--Change for the southbound D at Columbus Circle.
--Change for the Queens-bound E at 7th Avenue.
--Change for the Queens-bound F at 5th Avenue, Lex or 23rd Street.
--Change for the Brooklyn-bound G at Queens Plaza.
--Using your fun pass or weekly Metrocard, get off the G at Broadway and walk to the Hewes Street
station. Board the Queens-bound J.
--Change for the northbound L at Eastern Parkway.
--Change for the Manhattan/Brooklyn-bound M at Myrtle Ave/Wyckoff Ave.
--Change for the Coney-Island bound N at Lawrence Street
--Change for the southbound Q at Pacific Street/Atlantic Avenue; take it to Prospect Park, and then take the northbound Q back to Atlantic Avenue/Pacific St.
--Change for the Manhattan-bound R at Pacific Street.
--Reverse course again at 36th Street and take the northbound R.
--Change for the Z at Canal Street.
And by that time we're either hallucinating, or Bill Clinton has become an honest person. But that was a fine piece of work. I wonder how long all that would take?
You can take the 6 to the z
Another Revision, starting on the Manhattan-bound M
• Manhattan-bound M to Canal St
• Queens-bound N to 34 St
• Brooklyn-bound Q to DeKalb Av
• Queens-bound R to Canal St
• Queens-bound Z to Jamaica
Take the 1 at 59th Street to 42nd Street. Change for the 2 to 34th. Change for the 3 to Fulton Street. Take the 4 to Broooklyn bridge, change for the 5 to 14th . Change for the 6 to Grand central to the 7 to Times Square. Change for the 9.
This works rush hours only.
You suggest riding the B from 59th to 125th and then riding the C back to 59th. That's a painfully long, slow local run. You might as well ride the B only one stop to 72nd and double back from there. (No need for an extra fare -- the CPW stations are bilevel, NB upstairs and SB downstairs, with staircases inside the paid zone.)
For certain, is the Vitagraph Chimney next to the Brighton Line near Avenue M still standing?
I'm asking because my brother the scholar is writing a piece on the Company's history and doesn't want to say the structure is still standing if it ain't.
Thanks, guys.
Yes it is
There is nothing more to say.
Sure is Paul. Do you need a pic? I might be able to oblige.
BTW, my computer has returned!!! I'm officially back in action.
Doug aka BMTman
A good picture of the word "Vitagraph" can only be obtained in the early morning. The rest of the day, the sun is behind it and the word is in the shadows. You could also try a cloudy day with a flash...
www.forgotten-ny.com
You could also try a cloudy day with a flash...
Seriously, Kevin? I didn't think any flash had sufficient coverage to make a differene on a large structur like that.
Do you need a pic?
If you could, take would be great, Doug! I have no current shots of chimney or property.
Irv's research is mostly of the scholarly, not the photo, kind.
It's not a problem. Besides, it'll give me a chance to ride the Brighton line and perhaps drop in on our "SubTalk celebrity", heypaul.
;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Besides, it'll give me a chance to ride the Brighton line and perhaps drop in on our "SubTalk celebrity", heypaul.
Uhh...
You're not doing that today, are you?
I think it's a full moon.
Do you need a pic?
If you could, that would be great, Doug! I have no current shots of chimney or property.
Irv's research is mostly of the scholarly, not the photo, kind.
Thanks to the staff of this website for posting on "Upcoming Events" the delay in opening the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail. I have seen the route plenty under construction, so I'm eager to ride it. Has the fare schedule been settled?
$1.50
Well, I finally got dirty on one of my favorite museum cars, #1689.
After a day of training, it was a pleasure to 'get down n' dirty' underneath a working R-9, as Jeff H. required some assistance with re-routing the overhead powerline through the interior and down to the forward truck. Thurston and Lou from Brooklyn were there helping Jeff at the start, but those two gents were thoughtful enough to allow me to wallow in some grease and dirt in an attempt to feed the new power cable around value-lines and other assorted gadgets on 1689's undercarriage.
It took alittle doing, but after some hack-sawing of the cable to a workable length, the R-9 team was able to accomplish the second -- and next to last phase of this vital rewiring project.
Thanks to Jeff, Thurston and Lou for a great hands-on experience on a classic piece of equipment.
P.S. maybe next week we can complete the mission and perform a test-run? ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
wow how many r1- r9 s are there left now ?? will they do museum runs ????
Well aside from 1689, you have 800 and 1440 at Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine. They still run. Last time I was on them was in 1998 - I hung around long enough on Members Weekend that year to ride them.
Railway Preservation Corp as a few of them, all of which vary in condition, but I don't think any are runnable at this time.
--Mark
All except for 1802 are not runnable, although I here 491 is in somewhat decent shape.
-Stef
That's news to me.......Four of them can and do run, three others can also with MINIMAL work. They seem bad because of their cosmetic condition.Operable car #'s were asked to be kept out of this thread though, Sorry.
-Mark
Well, I didn't know. Thanks for filling me in.
-Stef
how many operational R-1 thru R-9 s are still used as a museum train ???
If you read Mark W's post, at least 4 of them can run. Exactly which ones is beyond me.
-Stef
... but none of which have been used for a museum train since the original Nostalgia Trains stopped running in 1980. Back then, they ran every weekend in late Spring through Labor Day.
--Mark
There's a possibility of another Nostalgia Excursion coming soon to a train station near you (or so I hear). Mark W., what's the scoop? Are the D-Types being resurrected from the dead? Or is something else that you know of is going on the road?
-Stef
I guess that shoots down the story I heard at the Transit Museum a few years back. One volunteer stated that all of the cars on exhibit are operable except for one. Yesterday I read the post that the four SMEE IRT cars have been cannibalized for parts and do not run. The real question would be, how many of the cars on display do run?
I don't know, but the Coney Island people can break that down. I wouldn't say the cars are totally inoperable. Basically what it stands down to is that they be shopped for any necessary repairs and undergo part replacement if necessary. In the case of the IRT SMEEs, I'd expect that if the parts taken out were put back, then they'd run again. Didn't you know that two years ago, a Superintendent out of one of the yards wanted to run them for a festival up in the Bronx?
But that wasn't to be. During the festival, passengers got an elderly R-17 as a replacement.
-Stef
Actually I heard as a bit of trivia that #1801 at the NY State Museum in Albany was recently rehabbed before it was de-rostered. Perhaps it is in the best shape of all the preserved R1-9's?
Hmmmm. 1801, in better shape than most of her companions? Perhaps. I can't recall Conrad, but does the museum in Albany consist of static displays, or do they have working equipment? I don't know much about 1801, but I have seen 1802 and the car appears to be in pretty good shape, compared to most R1/9s out at C.I. yard.
-Stef
Albany is a static display. I haven't been there to see the car so I can't comment on its condition.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here is a photo of 800/1440 operating at Seashore.
P.S. There are also photos on this site, at FAQ, of most of the rest of the old RT cars, including there operating status ... at least the last time someone gave Dave an update of same. I have a photo of yours truely standing in front of Shoreline's R-9 signed as a A train just before she entered the main line in October.
Mr t__:^)
I can hear those bull and pinion gears now. Ditto for the air compressors.
Doug,
I'm glad to see you had a great time working on the R-9 with Jeff - I know he certainly sped up his work with the 3/4 Ton Crew. Too bad I wasn't around to see what you folks were up to. I probably could've lent a hand because once in a while even I need a break from working on the R-17. As always, I do my best to get some work done as I was taking care of 6688 today.
Test runs on the R-9? We'll see. Jeff needs to finish that work up, but I'm sure he'll take it for a spin:)
-Stef
Hey guys, wire was run but not connected to anything >G<...
Still have the lovely wire running down the outside of the car from the pole that powers the car. Now we all need a leason in splicing at both ends of the new install. Something I'm up to learning about since I know nothing about electricity outside of the big prong goes in the big hole.....
It was amusing to see the look on our, trolley, instructors faces when four of us (Doug, Lou, Joe from SI, & I) said to them at the 4 PM, "well we have to go to work now". It's also of interest to me that several amoung our class are RxR employees, and one a former American pilot who is also a member of the Danbury, diesel, museum.
P.S. I now have another notch on my belt ... getting to operate 2001 from Montreal over the 3 miles of the line.
P.P.S. Doug did get the most dirty of all of us lying on his back while squeezing under the truck, however I did have to wash my $20 Conway special coat when I got home.
Mr t__:^)
The pilot I believe flew for United. It was also intresting to note the former railroad employee using his slang over the radio from his years of employment.
For our training class this is a signal that is currently out of service (Dark) but not covered with a bag. Us trainies have to call in to the dispatcher for permission to stop and proceed past this signal each and every time.
We would say "(Car #) request Stop and Proceed Dark Signal 30W", he would say "(Car #) 504 30W" 504 being the Rule number for Stop and Proceed or "Car # Proceed 30W" he told me he already STOPPED he was not asking permission to Stop since he was supposed to do that anyway.
I remember Eddie S. talking about rerouting the power cable on 1689 20 years ago. That's OK; these things take time and sometimes they get put off for one reason or another. Still, it's nice to hear that 1689 and 6688 are getting some TLC.
6688s definitely getting some TLC. She goes on the road when she needs to, the rest of the time she's getting a makeover in the shop. It's hard to believe that I've been working on her for 12 months. And we're still not finished. The path is still long, but at least the car's being taken care of. Now I can imagine how the BERA shop personnel must feel spending so many man hours to bring a streetcar back to a state of good condition. The strip job is what has taken so much time...
-Stef
We went. We walked. Thanks again to Mark W. for a great job. Also thanks to Bob Anderson for our branch maps.
Thank you all for coming. Next tour info will be posted later tonight.
So who turned out for this week's trip?
Pictures from the first will soon be posted on
www.forgotten-ny.com
[So who turned out for this week's trip?]
I was there, although I skipped the first hour or so and met up with the group at Myrtle Ave. (where I knew I could get a parking spot). I walked along the ROW as far as Atlantic Ave. and left after we checked out the Woodhaven station.
Today i had a chance to do some serious railfan riding.First, i took the 5 train from 125th street,only to get off at 149th street, to go downstairs to take the 2 train to 180th street.The 5 line redbirds are in very bad shape.The rust has more or less taken over,some of the numbers have rotted away, rust everywhere sigh......i guess it happens to old age.I lucked out back at 125th street and caught a R-36 flushing redbird, downtown.The R-36 are in a little better shape, not much of a rust problem yet.Got off at 86th street.caught a downtown redbirds an R-27 Dyre Avenue train, for a rusty relic this redbird has some kick the train flew down to Grand Central at about 45 miles per hours.I shared a railfan with two perky little girls they got a kick out of the old relic bouncing down the track towards Grand Central.I thought children and adults like me wont have a chance to do some railfanning much longer......so long redbirds.
they will be around a little longer than you might think !!!
!!!
you know whatz odd?those damn redbirds have been round' since the 60s and i heard that nyc changes trains every 30-35 years,so the red birds may be gone soon.(sigh).
That's either R26 or R28 (R27's are the "B" division). Yes, some of those Redbirds, especially the R28's and R33's can still motor.
I spotted a train or two of #5 Redbirds at 161st-River on the #4 (they were laid up in the centre track due to a GOH below) and they were so rusty, a good gust of wind might crumble them to dust. (Just kidding) but they were in severely bad shape, especially the R26 cars.
Wayne
Last time in town, had the window from BH up to TS..it was a Saturday, so we FLEW! WHEW..what a NICE breeze from the window! Funny thing tho...the whole local/express thing worked just like its supposed to-we mustve passed two or three #1s, and us and a 1 pulled into TS at the same time....just like in the movies!
Any of you r-142 mongers who can't wait
any longer.. and want a piece of
that big 'TOLD YOU SO'.. just say it..
redbirds4ever
If you really want to feel a redbird fly get on a #4 or #5 from borough hall in brooklyn to menhatten provided you have green signals all the way you will feel them spread thier wings...
And then watch the wings fall off in horror.
Your funny you should be a F___in comedien
Great comeback.
You obviously forgot your witty comebacks in the past, with the Redbirds you mindlessly adore.
F OFF
Any way I save the best for you. Have'nt heard any snappy comebacks from you either. By the way me and the rest of the REDBIRD jihad are having a "PIGROAST" and your the guest of honor
What? Not have a chance to railfan just because they remove a window? You're no railfan, you're an interested tourist. There's a lot more to being a railfan than a window.
-Hank
Now's the time to organize a group to preserve and maintain one or more of these cars.
After retirement TA saves a portion of the cars for thier own museum and other museums around like pennsylvania and the one in conneticut don't know if they are purchased or if the TA donates them
Assume purchase, even if the cars are donated, the cost of moving, restoring, housing and maintaining a single car is quite high. Also money isn't the only thing that it will take, volunteers would also be needed to do all of the labor necessary to "make it happen". But the result is worth it.
send them to NEW YORK NEW YORK ( las vegas )
What are they going to do with rotten old subway cars?
Rotten? I'm sorry, I like new stuff just as well as the next guy, but come on! So all you want to do is scrap them and forget that they ever excised? Yeah, I think that we should all forget the past! (sic)Who cares If they shaped a city's image, or if they had years and years and years of service? There old and therefore need to be forgotten! Throw away the redbirds no-one cares about them.
Well, let me tell you something, there are real railfans out there who love to buy, one give it some TLC, and show it off as the best damm rail cars to come out of this city!
I WILL NOT HAVE PIGS LIKE YOU TAKE AWAY OUR VALUED HISTORY! (no pun intended)
Even if they don't do revenue service they WILL RIDE THE RAILS FOREVER!
REDBIRDS FOREVER!
(and whitebirds, greenbirds, and the WF!)
I was asking what would NEW YORK, NY HOTEL do with them, I would love it if they went to museums. Out of my way, and at constant availability to their fans.
I would like to have been able to step inside a Bluebird, and future generations would like to see Redbirds. I don't care about them, and never have, I probably never will. You can do what you want with them when they're removed from service. As long as the extra cost for "honorable" disposal is not incurred upon the taxpayers and the riders oblivious to the process.
One question is: do you paint them red? Or..do you paint them in the original TA colors? Or if they are R36- Worlds Fair blue/white? Which do you save: The mainline units?Or the Flushing eurowindow units?[OK MANY questions..] Problems problems....
That issue was brought to the forefront with 6688 not too long ago. For the foreseeable future, it's going to stay Redbird red, but eventually may be repainted in its original maroon job.
If anyone gets two of the R-36WF cars, they definited should be restored to their original colors, inside and outside. Though the Redbird color is a more traditional railroad look, when the R-33 WFs and R-36 WFs were delievered, they were the best-looking cars the IRT has ever had (and that still holds true today).
Yeah...when I was a kid, and my aunt lived in Jackson Hgts, I got spoiled by the nice WF cars..imagine my disappointment when I found out what the rest of the IRT looked like....
About 4PM today (Sunday) I passed through Hicksville station (LIRR). At the south end of 1 track there was a 3-car consist of Bi-levels with a loco. There were several movie cameras being set up and scaffolding being erected. Anyone know what they were filming???
I strongly recommend the New York City Partnership's analysis of the MTA's proposed five year plan -- www.nycp.org, breaking news. It details a massive rise in debt, to the point where it may be impossible to even maintain the system, along with breaking down the fiscal independence of the NYCTA and commuter railroads. Virtually none of this increase in debt has to do with proposed improvements. Therefore, in a future of cutbacks and rising fares, subway fares could be used to lessen the impact on the commuter railroads or vice versa. We all know what that means.
Is teh NYCP a left wing group? Nope, its the NYC version of the Chamber of Commerce.
So much for the "surplus".
Larry, you know how to translate bureaucratic-speak better than I do, but it sounds like the Parntership report is being a little alarmist on the 30-year bond question.
Are they saying they don't think the railyard (I'm assuming they mean the rolling stock and related equipment) paid for with the 30-year bonds will outlast the bonds themselves? One bracketed statement says the "average life" could be as low as 15 years. That sounds about right for a bus depot's average equipment life, but not a railyard.
If you assume the upcoming R-142s, 143s and the eventual R-150s or whatever is purchased with the bond issue from the capital plan are going to last at least 30 years, then it seems like the proposal isn't as risky as the summary is making it sound.
On the other hand, if the R-142s did last only 15 years, there would be a lot of "I told you so's" from the Redbird fans on this board come 2016.
I think this description was a little too convoluted.
The better explanation is that after 2004, the MTA will (in theory) have to keep buying buses and subway cars and replacing track -- even if it does nothing to improve the system. But Pataki plans to do all the possible borrowing for 2000 to 2010 in the next four years -- during a boom. With this excess borrowing in a boom, what will happen when the MTA is swamped by debt and a recession limits available tax revenues?
OK, that makes more sense.
Basically, it sound like they're trying to borrow heavily up front and gambling that they'll be able to take advantage of lower interest rates now while not getting burned by a future recession -- or in Pataki's case, gambling he'll be somewhere else by the time anything does happen.
The federal government did something similar with treasury bills six years ago, refinancing the national debt with short term but lower interest-rate notes and gambling the interest rates won't rise when the notes come due and have to be rolled over. It worked for them, but gambling with taxpayers money is pretty irresponsible,
The government is actually calling some notes in early now - I don't profess to be an expert at government ledgerdemain but it would appear that we are actually reducing, however slightly, the national debt.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, they went with financing through short term notes instead of 30-year T-bills, and so far it's paid off, because inflation rates have stayed low. However, if gas prices don't drop and are passed along down the line through higher shipping and production costs, the inflation rate will start heading back up and whoever is president next year will face refinancing debt at a higher rate, short term or long term.
Every government in the country is paying down its debt except for New York City, New York State, and other local governments within New York State plus the MTA. Those bastards are ruining our state.
i predict the 15 year life on the 142 s ..... they dont make subway cars like they used to !!!
exactly !!!! i agree 100%
They make them better than they used to.
Why is it that subways, when technology was less advanced, and trains ran on 3 man crews, could run for a profit, and now, with the advent of OPTO and other so called imporvements, the subways can't even afford to maintain themselves. I can only see 4 reasons, of what was back then and not now:
-More ridership (tell that to a daily Lexington Avenue commuter)
-Lower pay for employees
-Less trackwork expenses (as a newer system) (but of course now we have track laying machines etc.)
-The fare was relatively higher.
i agree you at least have to have a conductor !!!
Then stop complaining about fare hikes, unless you offer to pay their salaries.
there should only be a 50 cent fare anyway !!! thats NOT complaining !!!
Yes it is. Multiple $1 (that's a round trip) and assume you go to and from work every day for a year. That's $365, $366 in a leap year. Whose annual salary does that pay?
Now, multiply that $365 by the number of daily riders. What do you get? According to 1998 figures on www.nyct.org, they had about 4M daily riders. That comes to $1,460,000,000. Now, those same figures say there are 42,000 employees. Given an average salary of $30,000/yr, and costs you $10,000/yr in employee benefits (health, retirement, the employer portion of the SSI/SSDI), those employees earn about $1,680,000,000 per year. This leaves you with $120M with which to pay overhead costs (electricity, fare collection, rent, cleaning supplies, etc) make repairs, incidentals. The bus division uses over 36M gallons of diesel fuel a year. At a reasonable cost ($1.25/g), that's $45M right there.
Now tell me how a 50c fare works.
-Hank
HANK !! is not all transit systems helped or funded you know that word sub stity or something like that
that means that all systems nationwide dont operate just off of the fairbox right ???
no transit system would work on the back of the transit riders alone !!!
that word i was trying to say is sub sid dize ( oh well ) 50 CENT FARE !!
Then fine, how high do you want your taxes? Or should the Feds print money to pay for it? Perhaps open a money tree grove.
[HANK !! is not all transit systems helped or funded you know that word sub stity or something like that that means that all systems nationwide dont operate just off of the fairbox right ???
no transit system would work on the back of the transit riders alone
that word i was trying to say is sub sid dize ( oh well ) 50 CENT FARE]
Although I probably shouldn't reply given the wholly incomprehensible nature of your posting, I hasten to point out that only one subway system in the world - Hong Kong - is fully self-supporting at the farebox.
And I don't know if Hong Kong is self-supporting when capital as well as operating expenses are included.
[Why is it that subways, when technology was less advanced, and trains ran on 3 man crews, could run for a profit, and now, with the advent of OPTO and other so called imporvements, the subways can't even afford to maintain themselves. ]
The main reason are labor radicals like New Directions.
Some other reasons:
- Higher discretionary ridership (Saturdays and Sundays). No "Sunday drives" before the automobile!
- Many people worked long days, went home for lunch (before refrigerators) and worked 6 days. IE, 24 rush hours a week instead of 10.
- Entertainment and leisure were centralized (downtown movies and stores, no suburban malls or home video). This encouraged transit use (eg, daily shopping trips).
- Less attention to safety. EG, the 3rd Ave El local tracks had no signals. Less maintenance expense.
- No politically-motivated disinvestment. If something made sense, they did it. If it didnt make sense, it didn't get done. Elected officials often just look ahead 4 years, no more, and ignore long term trends and needs.
- Wages....The subject of unions will always spark a debate. However, I would recommend reading "In Transit" (the history of the TWU). I found it interesting (and just a little disturbing). I don't feel either labor or management is always right or wrong, both sides are capable of being ridiculous if they feel they can get away with it. But understanding how the private companies (sometimes) treated their workers gives some idea why the unions gained popularity.....
One other point I can add, Conrad: Today's litigious society. So much of what is done "out there" today is to CYA to protect against the potential lawsuit. (Let's not start another law- or lawyer-related thread, however!) I can say, however, as an Instructor at a major trolley museum, it is one of the many "pieces of the puzzle" in our operations/safety/training program:
I think the central reason is that in 1910 subway riders were, on average, as affluent or more affluent that subway workers, whereas today the workers earn more than the riders. Pay those wages, and keep the fare low enough for the riders, and you have a loss. Peaking didn't help either.
As I've said, however, drivers don't pay for the roads they drive on out of pocket, and stations are local amenities like libraries or parks. Subtract the cost of maintaining stations and the right-of-way, and evaluate subways on an "auto-equivalent basis" -- the cost of buying, maintaining and operating the trains and collecting the fare. I'll be the subways are close to profitable.
Some people do say that gas taxes do pay for all highway expenses. Gas taxes only tax drivers, so it is almost like a fare. However, I'm not sure if I cam believe them.
Don't. From 'Mobilizing the Region':
KNIFE HELD OVER NY GAS TAX
This week the NY State Assembly and Senate passed versions of their 2000-2001 budget containing respective provisions to suspend or to eliminate the 4% state sales tax on gasoline. The Assembly bill championed by Speaker Sheldon Silver would drop the tax for the two summer months while the more drastic Senate bill pushed by Majority Leader Joseph Bruno legislates a permanent repeal for both gasoline and diesel fuel. Either provision threatens to shrink the already oversubscribed pot of transportation funds.
Both tax cut proposals were firmly denounced in all major NYC dailies and the Albany Times Union as the worst kind of political grandstanding in which motorists stood nothing to gain.
Of the total spent by federal, state, and local agencies on highways, bridges and roads in New York State, motorists pay for approximately 65% through gas taxes, (city, state, and federal) registration fees, parking fees, tolls, etc. The other 35% is derived from revenue sources such as income taxes borne by all citizens regardless of how much they use roads. The estimated $375 to $500 million a year - 5%-7% of all highway spending - generated by the 4% state tax would likely be recouped from these latter funds.
Based on Mayor Giuliani's remarks this week, some fear that if the state cuts its gas tax, New York City will follow suit (as it did when the state dropped the sales tax on clothing) and do away with its own 4% gas tax and the .25% surcharge which provides 5-10 million/year to the MTA, jacking taxpayers' subsidy to drivers up to more than $600 million annually.
-Hank
[I think the central reason is that in 1910 subway riders were, on average, as affluent or more affluent that subway workers, whereas today the workers earn more than the riders. Pay those wages, and
keep the fare low enough for the riders, and you have a loss. Peaking didn't help either.]
You'd have to consider how subway workers' wages relate to average wages over time. For instance, if the typical subway worker made 35% of the national median wage in 1910 and 65% today, it would be fairly evident why the system no longer runs at a profit (I have no idea if these percentages are remotely close to reality). I don't quite see what relevance riders' wages have.
I remember living on Staten Island the year that the TA took all the Grumans out of service. Besides borrowing Metro Buses from Washington DC, they also borrowed a fleet of MCI-8 cruiser coaches from Greyhound for express service to and from Manhattan. These were 47 passenger automatic transmission coaches with high back full reclining seats and were repainted in the white & blue MTA livery. They also had LAVATORIES, but they always kept them locked and nobody could use them. I think at the time it was a very foolish decision because the MTA was losing ridership to Academy and other private charter operators who were putting out all their new equipment on commuter routes which all had open usable lavatories. Maybe years ago when traffic was not so bad they were not necessary. But today it is not unusual to encounter delays where the trip between Staten Island and Manhattan can take close to 2 hours. It is at those times that a lavatory becomes a necessity rather than a luxury. I am in favor of lavatories on all express routes where the normal running time is 1 hour or more.
KING SOLOMON
May as well put them on all the buses then. THey'd justr be abused, like the rest of the equipment. Friday, I nearly sat on a seat that had 3 wads of gum on it. The mess these 'resposible' adult commuter leave behind is disgusting.
-Hank
Those Greyhound MC-8's were a temporary, emergency situation. Plus the TA did not have the facilities to properly service the lavatories. They would have had to go through all kinds of permit issuances, etc., to build such facilities. That's probably why the new express fleet of 102DL3's did not get lavatories either.
Besides that, the commuters would probably have demonstrated their "talent" for being slobs and made a total mess of the lavatories. (And then they'd be the same ones to turn around and bitch and moan that the lavatories were not clean....)
SORRY, I MEANT TO POST THIS MESSAGE ON THE BUS SITE NOT ON SUBWAY TALK. I APOLOGIZE.
KING SOLOMON
Are there any WOMEN subtalkers out there ?? or is just and only A GUY THING !!!!
to me WOMEN would have interesting things to say !!! However ( i feel sorry for Pigs wife !! ) .....
Yes I know of at least two.
Wayne
NAME ONE !!!
BX55, who hasn't posted in a while, has identified herself accordingly. Another poster (I don't recall who) also recently identified themselves as female. Peggy Darlington, who occasionally posts, is female. There are also two others who are occasional posters that I know are female, but they have both asked me not to divulge their identities. And I have my suspicions about a couple of other posters.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's not just subways that attract a largely male crowd. Transportation in general doesn't seem particularly interesting to women, as can be seen in just about all of the transportation-related newsgroups. Misc.transport.road has a lot more "regulars" than SubTalk, and as far as I can tell there are no women at all.
BX55? Where is she. I miss her. I hope she gets back on. I think her name is Shannon and she's not afraid to speak her mind. She and I went at it a few months ago but it was all in fun. Or was it?
It didn't seem like it at the time, IIRC. Let's hope she has accepted the olive branch you've extended. I'm sure that if you two were to meet, you'd bury the hatchet on the spot.
Speaking of other women posters, there was a Francine who posted briefly, then wasn't heard from again.
I think she was doing some kind of survey on MTA escalators that were out of service or vandalized? Not sure, but I recall a female posted about gathering information on escalators being in or out of service about a month ago.
Doug aka BMTman
This Francine posted perhaps a year ago or so. IIRC, she was a regular rider on the 7 and was divorced. Maybe we scared her away...
I think I could win her or anyone over if I'm on my best behavior, but I can be a bit of a agitator at times. Then I'm not so nice a guy, but I see there are lot of us like that on this website. Here's one for you. I still have a copy of that July 6 note that you wrote designating that Sea Beach Man was my title for the taking. As you can see, with a little fine tuning, I go by that handle.
I think I may have originally started with Mr. Sea Beach, or something close to it. I dubbed one fellow whose name I won't mention as "Mr. BMT" a while back, and he took it as a compliment. He's a frequent poster; however, the handle didn't stick.
Uh, don't be suspicious about me. I just checked. Yep -- male.
Subway buff is F
Our Lips Are Sealed.
wayne
Achhh, if it's women you want to meet, try the Backstreet Boys, George Clooney, Oprah Winfrey, The View or Ricky Martin chat rooms...
not talking about those idiots just sane WOMEN SUBTALKERS or is subtalk just a GUY THING ??
If they (the ladies)have anything interesting to say it will be interesting regardless of their gender. I'm also quite sure that if the ladies among us had wished to let you know that they were here and female, they would have done so. Perhaps it's your boorish on-line manners that turns them off.
[Achhh, if it's women you want to meet, try the Backstreet Boys, George Clooney, Oprah Winfrey, The View or Ricky Martin chat rooms...]
Assuming salaamallah wants to meet females over 13 years of age, I'd scratch the Backstreet Boys and Ricky Martin chat rooms off the list!
>>>Assuming salaamallah wants to meet females over 13 years of age<<<
Assume nothing!
There's nothing wrong if he does. He's just looking for women his age, at least mentally.
TO ALL SUBTALKERS I AM NOT SOME FREAK LOOKING FOR SOME 13 YEAR OLD !!
i am married to the same woman since 1972 and have a son age 30 !!!
Willie, we believe you! No need to get all upset. Let us let cooler heads prevail and be at peace with each other.
Wayne
right on !! thank you sir !!!! i am chilled !!!!!............
Married 28 years!
Have a son who is 30!
How does that prove that you are not
some sort of freak?
He also claims to have 13 year old grandchildren.
And should I (GASP) defend Mr. Allah, What difference does it make if he was married or not? Marriage is a paper relationship.
kevin walsh YOU ARE ONE SICK PERSON !!!!!!!!
[Assuming salaamallah wants to meet females over 13 years of age, I'd
scratch the Backstreet Boys and Ricky Martin chat rooms off the list!]
Make that 13 a 23.
YOU ASSUME WRONG !!! i am not looking for any female evn my age ...................... AGE 50 !!!!!!!
and i am married to the SAME WOMAN who is 9 years older than me since 1972 !!!!!!!!
you speak for yourself about looking for females age 13 or older !!!
EVEN IF I WAS SINGLE ....................... i would stick to MY AGE GROUP not some woman young enough
to be my son is THIRTY YEARS OLD THIS YEAR ( 30 ) !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I HOPE OTHER SUBTALKERS SEE THIS !!! your last post was nothing but FLAMAGE AT BEST !!
AND 100 % SLANDER !!! this is SUBTALK not some child porn site !!!!
go take a drink in the harlem river for all i care !!!!!
I ASKED FOR WOMEN SUBTALKERS ALSO TO RESPOND IT IS NICE TO HEAR WHAT THEY HAVE
TO SAY ABOUT RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEMS WORKDWIDE !!! from a womans point of view you freak !!!!
[and i am married to the SAME WOMAN who is 9 years older than me since 1972 !!!!!!!!]
So your wife has been nine years your senior only since 1972???
no stupid !!
Actually, the sole purpose of my post was to contradict Peter Rosa's beliefs that girls over 13 are not interested in pop bands, whereas I know from experience that they are. And yes, it technically was off topic.
P.S. Anything [in brackets] is a quote.
i am not interested in 13 year olds who are young enough to be my grandchildren !!
and i do have grandchildren that age !! ( thank you ) .................
So you ARE interested, just not in 'that way'. I belive the point of it was, while someone listed chat rooms you'd have a better chance of meeting females in, someone replied saying that if you want to find _adult_ females, you're better off without the Ricky Martin and Backstreet Boys chat rooms. Of course, you'll likely be forgiven for your explosion, given your obvious reading comprehension problem. I mean, you even insult and flame people who come to your DEFENSE!
-Hank
HANK !!! my respecful sir I 50 years old are not interested in females 13 years old !!!
AND I am happy with whom i am married to since 1972 !!! no explosions here !!! just the truth !!!
i am not single and i am glad i am not single !! thats not flame-ing anybody ........
( oh well hope i spelled that right ) !!!!
03/21/2000
You gotta give credit to Salaam to have a marriage to last this long in a society where marriages have a 50/50 chance of survival. No, I'm not married, just an observer.
As far as female SubTalkers are concerned, this site is for those who desire imformation, ask questions and reminice. So this shouldn't be considered a "male thing". Every (interested in trains) is invitied !!
Bill Newkirk
ACTUALLY my wife rode a PATH and new york subway train for the first time !!! she loved the REDBIRDS !!!
and the # 5 she saw the #4 #6 also !!! and she could not believe what she saw at the RAILFAN WINDOW !!!!!!!
( get mad ) !!!!!!!
Twice
There are a female or two (or three) who occasionally frequent SubTalk.
However, since we males are in the vast majority here, the female railfans prefer anonymity, unless gender becomes an issue in a specific post (and even then that's doubtful they'll reveal their gender).
Doug aka BMTman
Why, are you trying to start a dating service?
ROFL!
I can just see it now.....
First date will be a ride on the #7 line crouched over her at the storm door window, out to Main Street and back. Dinner will be kosher hot dogs at Penn Station.
Second date? HAH! No such thing after that first one!
Hey!!! Untrue!!!
My first 'real' date with my fiance (where it was just us) was a subway ride from the Bronx to Brooklyn, and a visit to the Transit Museum! Of course, we had McDonalds, not Kosher Hot Dogs.
-Hank
>>My first 'real' date with my fiance (where it was just us) was a subway ride from the Bronx to
Brooklyn, and a visit to the Transit Museum! Of course, we had McDonalds, not Kosher Hot Dogs.<<
And that reminds me of a song...
by Little Stevie Wonder in '66...
"Nothin's too good for my baby...
Nothin's too good for my girl..."
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hey, SHE wanted to join the transit museum, SHE wanted to go see the RR Museum of [The] Pennsylvania, and she's bugging me to go see Branford! Anyone wanna buy me a car?
-Hank
How about hot dogs at Nathan's at Coney Island?
Why do you go out assuming I even have a wife.
I know you don't, as that's still illegal for you.
HA HA HA! For some reason I don't think "Pig" has a Miss Piggy!
Trevor
well then he cant have a TRANSVERSE CLOSED OFF CAB CAR CLUB ( family) !!!!!!!!!
Can't have a Miss Piggy. Would have to be a Ms. Piggy, if she'd prefer to keep her name.
-Hank :)
would she marry Mr pig ? from royal island ?? !!!! ....
How do you know what people think? You hardly have the brainpower to think yourself!
And someone could want to marry me, I wouldn't do it.
well then remain single !! also SPEAK AMERICAN !!
BTW, when you go to Canada, do you buy a dictionary? You know, because you can't speak ENGLISH, you can only speak one language and one which DOESN'T EXIST!
I'm posting from Las Vegas, Nevada at the moment, visiting my older daughter and her family (and the two most perfect grandchildren in the world, Alex and Drew). Yesterday my son-in-law Larry and I, grandson Alex, and Poppa Geezer (the other grandfather) drove the 250 miles over to Perris, California and the Orange Empire Railway Museum. We rode a traditional "California car" of Los Angeles Railways, one of their PCC cars (both of these cars are 3' 6" gauge), and a standard gauge train powered by an ex-Pacific Electric electric locomotive. No interurban or suburban cars were running. The collection was quite impressive; not all of it was open to the public because of insufficient volunteers, unfortunately, but what we saw was quite impresssive. I would have liked to see the interior of the Key System articulated units they had but they were closed; in a good move for preservation the windows were also papered over to prevent sunlight from attacking the interior. Much of the most fragile equipment, restored or otherwise, is in barns; most of the locomotives are outside, including a beautifully-painted Alco RS unit (I purchased a guidebook to the museum, including the roster, but it's in the nursery and my daughter will kill me if I go up and get it and wake up Drew in the process) and a number of more decrepit hulks. One of the barns is dedicated to Ward Kimball's Grizzly Flats 3' narrow gauge equipment - for those of you who aren't familiar with this collection, Ward Kimball was Walt Disney's friend. Disney, himself a live steam fan (he had an extensive 7 1/2" gauge collection), became such a fan of Kimball's equipment that he wanted to have his own collection and also have a few additional attractions in order to make it a successful commercial venture. His initial plans didn't pass financial muster, so he expanded the plan to include a monorail and a few more attractions based on his cartoons, and Disneyland was born. The equipment in that barn is all in beautiful condition, as donated by Mr. Kimball. Much work was going on elsewhere around the museum, being done by a group as dedicated as those of you who work at Branford, Kingston, Seashore, Baltimore, and elsewhere. I would like to have talked with more of the folks around but Alex was tiring. We would have ridden the PCC a second time but at mid-afternoon a rail broke on the loop so the PCC was taken out of service and the California car provided the only runs the rest of the day. If you ever have a chance to get out there I recommend it highly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh no, a broken rail in the trolley loop! I'm guessing on the
narrow gauge side (OERM has a gauntlet track loop).
OERM hosted the 1998 Association of Railway Museums convention
and did a wonderful job. Highlight was the banquet at which
Ward Kimball was the guest of honor and showed home movies of
Walt Disney operating in his backward layout.
It's not gauntlet, it's dual gauge - one shared rail on the right (going clockwise), two rails (at 3' 6" and 4' 8 1/2") on the left. The broken rail, I believe, was the shared rail.
Only narrow gauge equipment was running on the loop when we were there. They had to back up the PCC all the way from the broken rail to the barn - quite a chore since there is no "coast" when you are in reverse.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's not gauntlet, it's dual gauge - one shared rail on the right (going clockwise), two rails (at 3' 6" and 4' 8 1/2")
on the left. The broken rail, I believe, was the shared rail.
Only narrow gauge equipment was running on the loop when we were there. They had to back up the PCC all the
way from the broken rail to the barn - quite a chore since there is no "coast" when you are in reverse.
Eh, I call it gauntlet because it is 3 rails. I suppose dual-gauge
is a more accurate term. If you look at the OERM loop, the outer
(standard gauge) rail sees very little service. The loop is mostly
for LA railways narrow gauge streetcars. It's very nice, but it
must get rather tedious after a while!
Using the backup controller on a single-ended PCC car, you get
about a 70% brake rate in coast. It's whatever the brake pedal
is set up for at the other end of the car, and it is typically
latched in the parking position. If you really want coast, find
a heavy object (brake shoes work well) to hold down the deadman pedal
and let the brake pedal up.
Your coast trick for PCC's with backup controllers doesn't quite work, especially if the controller was "factory installed". The reverser quadrant has a spring loaded wedge that effectively locks the power and brake pedals in place. The reverse bar (I use the Baltimore term) has a fitted "spike" that engages the bar and releases the pedals. With the reverse bar in the backup controller, the front is locked unless somebody fiddles with it, the resullt is you lose about 70 per cent of the brake if the brake pedal is released while locked.
If the controller was "home grown", all bets are off.
A really funny trick for a car with a backup controller is to use 2 reverse bars, one in the quadrant, and one in the backup controller. The car will operate forward with nobody in the seat.
At BSM, both our first (now late) Chief Instructor and our current one have said if anybody tries it and gets caught, that's the end of their operating qualifications, forever. The Shop has done it as a test, with the CI and the Supt. Rolling Stock & Shops on board, as well as most of the Instructors. I can attest that it works as described above.
It also depends on whether it is an air car or an all-electric.
Actually, now I'm confused about what Anon-e-mouse said in the
first place. When you are in COAST from the BU controller, you
shouldn't feel any brake drag except at higher speeds where the
dynamic comes on.
Not sure what you mean about locking the pedals. You can't
remove the reverse key in the backup position with the brake
pedal in release?
Mind you I don't have much experience with backup controllers.
All of our PCC or PCC-like cars are either double-ended or
(in the case of 1001) have no backup controller.
Yup!! If I remember correctly, unless the brake is in the "interlock" position, the reverse bar cannot be thrown or removed.
AFAIK, there is no difference between air cars and electrics as regards backup controllers.
The backup controller is totally electric, while the pedals are connected to the master controller by the push rods.
It is realy a ERPCC "cludge job". Baltimore started the backup control mod to the PCC wiring harness in 1936, when our first St. Louis cars came with backup controllers. BTC, possesing car houses that were built for double end cars, specified backup controllers in all single end equipment. The PCC was orginally designed without provision of a backup controller, and BTC's insistance on having the operator run the car from the end the car was going, without having to look 46 feet back and through the tiny air car rear windows made the ERPCC make the revisions. (Having had to back from the front in an emergency, it's no picnic.
oing, without having to look 46 feet back and through the tiny air car rear windows made the ERPCC make the
revisions. (Having had to back from the front in an emergency, it's no picnic.
Been there, done that (at speed, with a rear pilot).
Actually, now I'm confused about what Anon-e-mouse said in the first place. When you are in COAST from the BU controller, you shouldn't feel any brake drag except at higher speeds where the dynamic comes on.
I'm going on the statements of the operator at OERM who was going to have to back the car around. He indicated that there was only "reverse" and "brake", no coast, from the rear end. The only technical information about the backup controller that I possess is what I learned from Dan Lawrence when I visited BSM in early February, and he's summarized that pretty well in another post in this thread.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Which PCC did you ride on? As I understand, OERM has examples of each class of PCCs which ran in Los Angeles. #3002 comes to mind as being one of them, and they also have all-electric #3148.
Good question. My daughter's out right now with the children (my suitcase is in the baby's room) so I can go upstairs and check the roster ...
OK, looks like it was 3165, the last streetcar delivered to Los Angeles. The roster also lists 3001, the first Los Angeles PCC, and "war baby" 3100 - no sign of 3148. Other PCCs on the roster include San Diego 508 and 528 (who last served El Paso, I believe) and San Francisco 1039, plus parts car 1033. The last four mentioned are sitting outside, only one (a San Diego car) under a tarp, in what looks to be very bad shape. 3001 and 3100 were in the barn; one of them was jacked up with a couple of volunteers underneath her. When I get my slides back (end of next week) I'll be able to tell you which one for sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i happen to know of at least two subtalkers who suffer from lycanthropy***--- ever since the norristown high speed line retired their silver bullet cars, there has been a resurgence of lycanthropy along the eastern seaboard--- i am sleeping with several cloves of garlic around my neck,for tonight the full moon is out---
remember the words of maria the gypsy woman:
" even a man who is pure in heart and says his prayers by night may become a wolf, when the wolfbane blooms and the autumn moon is full and bright....
*** lycanthropy is the medical name for werewolvery
to make this mass transit related--- in the closing scenes of american werewolf in london, there is a wonderful scene of cars and buses crashing into each other ( i am not sure what line the bus was running on before it was involved in the crash)
i agree !! like members of the TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB !!! or people on subtalk who cant stand
' the idea of people wanting to be left alone and not participate in the 2000 senseless useless CENSUS !!!
especially those who question government auhority !!! and dont believe everything warewolf inc. says !!!!
THEN THE PIGS COME OUT WITH A LOUD............ ONIK !!! yes heypaul you are 100 % right !!!!
This is not yet another of my postings about how NYC gives enormous tax breaks to corporate blackmailers who make ludicrous relocation threats. Stories like that do tend to get repetitive over time. No, it deals with a front-page story in the Times that supports something I've been claiming all along.
Today's story describes the fair degree of success that Pennsylvania's Lehigh Valley has had in luring industrial and back-office operations from New Jersey. Several factors seem to be responsible, among them ample, low-cost industrial park space, an extremely rapid building-permit process, development officials' willingness to court small companies as well as mega-employers, and (probably most of all) lower labor costs.
What do not seem to have made much difference, even though they've been offered, are the sort of special tax breaks that NYC so loves. To quote a little:
>>The Regional Plan Association, antitax groups, and many economists contend that special tax breaks or subsidies are not a major factor in the decision of any company to relocate and therefore are a waste of resources ... "The subsidies can turn out to be giveaways," said James Hughes, dean of the School of Planning and Public Policy at Rutgers University. "In many cases, you're providing a bonus for someone who would've taken the same course of action anyway ... I don't think the patterns of development would be a heck of a lot different if we abolished each and every subsidy."<<
It's possible that NYC officials might get the point and will stop paying corporate blackmail. And it's also possible that pigs might fly.
(It's possible that NYC officials might get the point and will stop paying corporate blackmail.)
This assumes they are acting in the common interest. What if they are acting in the interests of financial and political supporters? Just imagine, NYC's taxes are generally high, but if the Mayor (or Governor) says so YOU don't have to pay them! It's dirty, I'm sure of it.
Ed Koch knew it. He eliminated negotiated deals in exchange for a standard "as-of-right" tax break for new investment. When the economy heated up in Manhattan, the deal was phased out, and now applies only north of 96th Street in Manhattan and in the other boroughs. Build or renovate a commercial or industrial building, and you don't have to pay any property taxes on the improvement for 15 to 25 years. That's right, NO TAXES! And, there is no commercial rent tax outside Manhattan. In fact, if you fix up an existing building in Downtown Brooklyn, you get a credit against the property tax you would have owned anyway. Who says taxes are driving businesses out of NYC?
But now we are doing individual deals in Manhattan again, where the biggest problem is that so many businesses are deperate to be there that we are running out of space.
DIRTY, DIRTY, DIRTY!
Ideally NYC should lower all of it's business related taxes on everybody, everywhere in the 5 boroughs. But even then Company A would say "give me a break or I'll locate in NJ". It's the nature of a business (or me or you) to try and get a better deal. Think of NYC taxes like the sticker price on a trendy new car. Would you pay that sticker price for your next car? Of course not, no matter how hard the dealer insists that everyone is paying sticker for this particular popular car, you would tell him to take a hike, and then take your business somewhere else and probably buy a different model too.
The current policy hasn't really added much Class-A office space to the "outer" boroughs. Brooklyn has MetroTech and Pierrepont Plaza. Staten Island has the Teleport, a few new buildings on South Avenue, and one new building on Tyrellan Avenue. (Have the Queens and Bronx gained any Class-A space?)
Class-A space is becoming scarce in Manhattan. But companies still prefer to take Class-A space in NJ over similar space in the boroughs for a lot of reasons.
[Ideally NYC should lower all of it's business related taxes on everybody, everywhere in the 5 boroughs. But even then Company A would say "give me a break or I'll locate in NJ". It's the nature of a business (or me or you) to try and get a better deal. Think of NYC taxes like the sticker price on a trendy new car. Would you pay that sticker price for your next car? Of course not, no matter how hard the dealer insists that everyone is paying sticker for this particular popular car, you would tell him to take a hike, and then take your business somewhere else and probably buy a different model too.]
Today's article cited a New Jersey economic development official as attributing much of the tax-incentives policy to old-fashioned fear. All states and many localities are offering incentives, competing fiercely against one another, and no one wants to be the first to say "no" just in case businesses do in fact leave - even though there are grave doubts as to whether incentives really make any difference. Nothing's likely to change unless and until one governor or mayor is brave enough to say "no" and risk the consequences. I suspect that'll be a long wait, as politicians aren't noted for courage.
[The current policy hasn't really added much Class-A office space to the "outer" boroughs. Brooklyn has MetroTech and Pierrepont Plaza. Staten Island has the Teleport, a few new buildings on South Avenue, and one new building on Tyrellan Avenue. (Have the Queens and Bronx gained any Class-A space?)
Class-A space is becoming scarce in Manhattan. But companies still prefer to take Class-A space in NJ over similar space in the boroughs for a lot of reasons.]
I was mystified about the lack of outer-borough office development until Larry pointed out that the construction unions charge just as much for work in the outer boroughs as they do for work in Manhattan, even though the rent levels are vastly different. Inflated labor costs therefore make outer-borough office space too expensive compared to New Jersey or elsewhere. Reputation is also an issue. The outer boroughs, except for Staten Island and maybe parts of Queens, suffer from a low-rent image that might scare off some potential developers and office tenants. Like any bad reputation, the one that the outer boroughs have is not fully justified but very difficult to change.
(Why businesses won't go to the outer boroughs)
Large established companies insist on having their front office in Manhattan, and can locate their back office anywhere. Big companies can afford Class A space, but the type of companies that might locate in Brooklyn want lower cost, class B space.
But Class B space is former Class A space that is 30+ years old. Manhattan has lots of it, as do the suburbs, while the outer boroughs have none, and construction costs make it too expensive to build class B space from scratch.
Would you believe today's Daily News
editorial suggests use of the Rockaway Branch for a
one-seat ride to JFK? They seem to think the ROW
could be easily re-opened. Maybe we should bring one
of the editors out for a tour. This is not to say it
can't be done, nor that it shouldn't be done. Most
of the ROW is there, and using it would
provide the solution to the problem. A two-seat ride
from an airport is practically worthless.
Sorry,I can't get the link to work. This is it:http://www.mostnewyork.com/2000-03-20/News_and
_Views/Opinion/a-60561.asp
From what I understand, a writer from the Daily News has in fact walked the line
From the recent tour, which I sadly and sorely missed, I need some info.
1)how many trees have invaded the roadbed?
2)Would concret ties be the tie of choice? I noticed wood ties were used on the Broad Channel test tracks.
3)Where will it be best for it to join the existing system? Woodhaven? Roosevelt?Lower level of the 63rd Tunnel? Anyone have a "PLAN"?
4)What stations will be reserected? Some? A few? All? None?
5)Will it be "A" or "B" divison? "A" could readily co-join with the dreaded P.A.T.H. and maybe use the air train overheads?
This is a free-for-all no holds barred session , so jump in with your expertise.
Here's my idea, posted many months ago:
Electrify the Montaulk LIRR. Connect the now abandoned Roackaway Beach LIRR ROW to this line where the 2 lines intersect (just north of Myrtle Ave. Then run trains non-stop from Penn Station to the airport. The only new construction that would be needed is to build a spur branching off the Rockaway Line, right into the airport. Have the tracks loop around the entire terminal, with stops along the way at major airline terminals.
NIMBYism would kill this plan, I'm afraid. So instead we get the useless Airtrain to Jamaica.
Joining into the Montaulk Line would eliminate the problem of the orignal branch ROW which is virtually in the back yards of some of the Rego Park houses. Still to be resolved is the wall the school bus company has across the entire ROW at Atlantic Avenue and the parking lot just past the Montaulk Line which has completely covered the ROW. There are lots and lots of tree branches all through the line. The ties are wood.
How to resolve the wall problem: rip it down. Tell the schoolbus co. to get off city property.
last fall there was a community meeting concerning the bus companies lease, they the bus company wanted a 99 year lease. I don,t know the details of the final out come , but it could be an expensive buy out.
avid
Well, if the city gave a 99 year lease to these people, then they really have no plans to ever restore the Rockaway Beach ROW at any time in the future.
Tell the bus company to get off the planet. Tell the all school bus companies to get out of any non third world country. They don't belong in one.
I say hook it up at White Pot Junction. Evict the school busses. Tunnel under the apartment block at Union Turnpike. Break out the chippers and chain saws. Hook it up at Atlantic Avenue while you're at it. Local and express stops too, including all the abandoned/closed/lost ones. The only way to make a train to JFK airport is to use this line, the NIMBYs be damned.
To all those who went Sunday - I'm STILL nursing my injured ribcage - Dr. Hwang said the muscle isn't strained - it's TORN. Slogging through the woods would not have helped it much.
Is there ANY evidence of the station at Parkside? i.e. ruins, remains etc.
Wayne
>>>Is there ANY evidence of the station at Parkside? i.e. ruins, remains etc. <<<
The only traces of the old wooden platformed stations are additional gaps between the trackways.
Concrete stations (Woodhaven, Ozone Park) which are somewhat newer than the others, are still there. They look cruddy now but could well be re-strengthened if service ever comes back (hahahahah!)
www.forgotten-ny.com
If the ROW was ever used for airport service, none of these stops would be needed.
The missing and defunct stations would have to be re-opened to counter NIMBY's . They to must benifit from any new line. It would still be far superior to time of the "A" . Check the time tables of "CHANGE AT OZONE PARK".
Sugar Not Vinagar.
Actually, opening stations would raise the ire of the NIMBY's. Certain neighborhoods don't want their areas to become more accesable by mass transit. They generally want to keep the riff-raff (translation: minorities and working families) out.
Most of the people along that ROW ARE working folks, at least south of Forest Park. LIRR to them may be preferable to NYCT. Anyway - they already HAVE NYCT's "A" and "J" lines, what's one more train?
It's the penny millionaires in Rego Park that would pose a problem, plus the folks in that apartment block at Union Turnpike. I see a tunnel there...and there goes the budget.
However, if they gave these folks a NICE NEW Period-furnished station at Parkside (imagine that - Parkside, Woodside, BINGO - Penn Station in 20 minutes or less!) you might see their eyes light up. Also put a station right next to Jackie Robinson Pkwy with a park-and-ride garage. You won't need Rego Park (too far from Queens Mall and 63rd Drive IND station's right there). Brooklyn Manor might be nice with a connection to the 104th Street "J" station; Woodhaven's (both of 'em) a must and so is Ozone Park. Reopen the connector to the Atlantic Avenue branch too.
My guesstimate for the complete rehab of the entire route, including White-Pot Junction and the links into JFK - about $15,000,000,000.00, give or take a few pence.
Wayne
How do you propose to connect the Montauk Line to Penn Sta?
The Montaulk Line comes very close to the mainline in LIC. A connection shouldn't be that hard.
But you did say that the only new rail link was the spur into JFK, didn't you?
Do you plan to tunnel under Calvary Cemetery or fill in Dutch Kills?
Doesn't the Montaulk LIRR connect with the mainline/Hunt's Point spur in LIC? According to my map, the Hunts Point tracks continue east and merge with the Montaulk line before terminating in LIC. A connecton to the mainline for access to Penn Station shouldn't bee too difficult.
[Doesn't the Montaulk LIRR connect with the mainline/Hunt's Point spur in LIC? According to my map, the Hunts Point tracks continue east and merge with the Montaulk line before terminating in LIC. A connecton to the mainline for access to Penn Station shouldn't bee too difficult.]
Indeed there is such a connection, via the Borden Avenue grade crossing. Hunterspoint (not Hunt's Point, that's in the Bronx) station and the Long Island City terminal are much closer than you'd probably imagine.
I envision this as being a dual-mode SUBWAY (on the outer tracks) and LIRR (inner tracks) line, two tracks off the LIRR at White Pot Jct, and two off the bellmouth between 63 Drive and 67 Avenue.
Stations would include all of the former ones along the way:
Metropolitan Avenue-Parkside, Forest Park (alongside the Jackie Robinson with a park-and-ride garage), Brooklyn Manor-Jamaica Avenue, Woodhaven-Atlantic Avenue, and Ozone Park-101st Avenue. The "Q" would be the subway service (with the "R" covering to 71st Avenue)
Of course this scenario (pipe dream) would involve a strict segregation between NYCT and LIRR tracks.
Wayne
Speaking of which, here's some pictures of our recent Rockaway Branch walk at Forgotten NY:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Rockaway%20Line/rockline.html
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREAT shots and site.
avid
Nice pictures, Kevin.
You mention that Grand St. and Rego Park only serviced Rockaway trains. That's correct for Rego Park, but I don't think it is true of Grand St.
Rego Park had two outside platforms that could only service the Rockaway trains, but Grand St. had two island platforms that were located between the outside Rockaway tracks and the Main Line local tracks, so that trains going from Penn Station to Jamaica could also stop there.
By the way, Grand St. station was open from 1913 to 1925 and Rego Park didn't open until May, 1928, so they never existed at the same time.
Bob
Noted; I'll recheck my sources...
Kevin, as always, great job.
--Mark
Thanks!
Gee, maybe aside from using this site to track down heypaul, someone at the Daily News was actually reading some of the posts here about the Rockaway line and got the idea from that.
We can only hope they haven't been reading any of the threads with the word `Redbird' in them that have been running the past five days, or else they'll never come here for another idea again.
[We can only hope they haven't been reading any of the threads with the word `Redbird' in them that have been running the past five days, or else they'll never come here for another idea again.]
or "Census"!
03/20/2000
Well the Daily News has printed what we've been talking about for some time. However, this will never see the light of day since "Airtrain" is the happening thing right now. All attention is focused on Airtrain so I can't see how more money can be spent in utilizing the best way for an airport route.
Bill Newkirk
I'm surprised this editorial came out at this late date, since the Airtrain horse has already left the barn.
I can't see the Rock link being built on, simply because there's a parking lot and a condo complex at Union Turnpike, and those folks will have their fingernails pulled out with tweezers before giving up those parking spaces. You'd have to build a tunnel, meaning lots of $$$$$$...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Is this condo and parking lot just N/O the Jackie Robinson Pkway?
yes it is.
Thanks!! That seems to solve a little puzzle of mine. I use the J Robinson/Interborough every day to work and have for a long time tried to find the Rockaway Branch. I always discounted what turned out to be the right overpass because of the apartment bldg and parking lot. Now I know that IS the ROW!!!
Now if I could only find where the Main Line crosses it!!!
[Now if I could only find where the Main Line crosses it!!!]
The LIRR main line goes under the Jackie Robinson Parkway in a stretch where the Parkway is lined with apartment buildings. As a result, you can't see it from the Parkway.
The Jackie Robinson between the Grand Central and Forest Park pretty much defines the term "thread the needle." First the lanes of Union Turnpike dive down to run outside the main lanes, then under Queens Blvd. and above the E and F trains at the Borough Hall station (with the extrances built into the area on the Union Turnpike lanes), and then up so first Austin Street and then the LIRR tracks can go underneath both roads, and finally, the Union Tpk. lanes rise up to an overpass so people coming either from Forest Hills or Forest Park can get across the Parkway.
Very complex for what is basically a six-block stretch of highway.
heading to brooklyn just after you go under Queens Blvd. and climb the hill there are twin apt buildings on each side of the road, the LIRR runs under the buildings...
Is this condo and parking lot just N/O the Jackie
Robinson Pkway overpass?
If these buildings or parking areas are located on the ROW, then the city has the right to evict them. The ROW isn't their personal property and they have no righ to use it for their own purpose.
Alease says different.
avid
Elevate the parking lot on stilts like a cheap parking garage. Less expensive then a tunnel.
Keep brainstorming, it can all be ironed out.
win win for all.
avid
Cheaper than a full-blown tunnel: like they did over the main line in Forest Hills area - depress the ROW and put a deck (heavily reinforced, of course) over it for the parking facility. It doesn't have to run at grade there.
Wayne
What they could do is take back the area of the parking lot, built a
wall seperating the building and ROW. Those people are traspassing. They don't won that are anyhow. If the state wanted to, they could screw the people in the apartment. Im sure the railroad can work something out. Depressing the ROW would be too expensive.
Last week, at the Classon Ave Station, I saw R32s on the G Train. They were assigned to the Queens Blvd E and R lines. Does anybody have any information about this?
There was a thread on this last week. You will sometimes see R-32s on the "G" train. They are E-trains that have run away from home, temporarily.
Peace,
Andee
Is that why there are sometimes R46s on the E
No, that's why there are R32s on the "R". The "E" and "R" swap R32 and R46. However, I DID see a train of #6200 series cars on the "F" (four in a row, with an A-C-D-B bunch behind it). That probably has no bearing on it. They usually use the #6208-6258 on the "G".
Wayne
The following numbers were correct in 1999 and still should be representative of the Queens Blvd. service today.
The E line calls for 21 600' trains (21 trains of 60' cars). The R calls for 32 600' trains (29 trains of 75' cars and 3 trains of 60' cars). The F line calls for 46 600' trains (46 trains or 75' cars). These assignments are determined by the good people in 'Operations Planning'. All of these cars come out of the Jamaica Shop fleet. However, due to cars out of service, from time to time the correct mix of R-32s and R-46s cannot be had. Since the object is always FULL SERVICE, then R-32s are substituted for R-46s or vice versa to that end. If you see R-46s on the E, chances are there are too many R-32s out of service.
G service calls for 12 trains. Normally they are 6-car R-46s. The bulk of the R-46 fleet is linked into 4-car units but there are 14 2-car units assigned for G service. When there are 3 or more of these 2-car units are not available due to maintenance, 10-car R-32s are used in their place.
Answer 1) No! 8-car R-46s can't be used in G service for operational reasons.
Answer 2) No you can't use 8-car R-32s in G service for operational reasons.
You can use a 8 car R46 for G service.The platform lengths on the G allow this, and there is a conductors board for maximum length trains. Most of the time, if the need arises, a 10 car R32 will be used.
Could the signs be old? He did not say that it was because of the platform length
You are correct about the length of the trains and where the conductor's boards are. This is not the issue. 8 Car R-46s are NOT used on the G line due to other, more obscure operational considerations.
What are the other, more obscure reasons?
(How do you underline posts)
HTML tags handle the underlining. To see how he did it, look at his post and "view page source" (that's the Netscape selection).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Too technical.
You don't really know, do you! And anyway, I have seen on 2 occasions 8 car R46 trains on the G. At 71/Continental, they make an announcement that such a train is beginning a route, so the conductor and operator know where they are supposed to stop.
There aren't enough R46s to run 8 car service on the G. In addition, the line doesn't go into Manhattan, therefore the ridership level doesn't neccesitate running full length trains on a regular basis. I remember in the mid to late 1980s, 6 car R32s were the norm on the line.
Why can't they
Why can't they what?
Why can't the 8 car trains run on the G
Always thought R32/38s were common on G line. See a lot of the R38s doing A and C service and R32s doing E line
As many people are saying THE R38s ONLY RUN ON THE A AND C, (A little while ago they were running on the B and E)
That was because of the C line being temporarily out of service. NORMALLY, they are on the A and C.
True, but i would not be suprised if it happened again
R38 hasn't been on the "G" since the 1980s, before the current R46s.
Wayne
Nobody can understand that the R38s only run on the 8th ave line (not the E)
That's because they're stabled at either Pitkin Yard (if a "C") or at 207th Street Yard (if an "A").
Wayne
On Saturday, I finally managed to ride the weekend GO 'B' express to Coney over Sea Beach. As for speed, it didn't do half bad (for an R-68A, anyway) from the portal to New Utrecht, but bogged down at the 65th Street overpass and crawled the rest of the way.
What killed me was how the conductor 'explained' this at 36th and 59th Streets: "There is NO 'B' service from 36th Street to Stillwell Avenue. Passengers for bypassed stops should stay on this train to Stillwell Avenue [a direct contradiction of what was just stated] and take a 'B' train across the platform which will make all bypassed stops."
This prompted more than the usual head-scratching and map-studying. Seems to me he SHOULDA said that there was no service to 'B'(or West End, to old timers) stations and we would be running EXPRESS along the 'N' line to Coney. To compound things, we sat and let TWO 'N' trains go by across the platform at 59th Street, which offered ample opportunity to tell people that if they wanted 'B' stops between 9th Avenue and 55th Street, they could take the 'N' to New Utrecht Avenue and change to the Manhattan-bound 'B' there; or if they wanted 62nd Street to simply take the 'N' to New Utrecht. This would have saved a lot of people from making the whole trip to and from Coney.
On the positive side, the termination of the '7' at Queensboro Plaza was beautifully handled, with many announcements and flesh n' blood attendants advising Flushing-bound commuters changing from the 'N' that all '7' service would be on the lower (Manhattan-bound) level. This effort did not stop many people from standing impatiently on the upper level and LIFTING UP THE ORANGE TAPE to see if the Flushing-bound '7' was coming around the curve. These misguided souls rebuffed any information offered them. Wonder how many hours they stood there?
I tried your suggestions last summer when I was on the N line. Result: they don't believe you anyhow, so after a while you just sort of give up, especially when you see the same people day after day doing the same thing and always acting like it never happened before.
The following is a fwd from the Conrail-Talk e-mail list. Can any of you explain this?
Yesterday, Sunday the 19th, NS ran down Delmarva with the truly weird move
of the year. Following a normal lime green high-rail truck was a New York
Metro Transit Authority track car. The oddest part of the entire thing was
that the consist didn't stop at the Eastern Shore Railroad interchange in
Pocomoke, MD. Instead, it continued south all the way to Cape Charles, VA.
From there I don't know where it went, but car float is a possibility. I can
think of a few ideas of what this thing was doing here:
1) A return to manufacturer to the Plasser American facility at the Cape.
2) An Amtrak test run
3) NS testing the entire secondary under disguise so as not to start rumors
Anyone with any clue as to why a NYMTA track car ran the entire length of
the old Delmarva mainline should feel free to write back.
In other news yesterday.......
H99 ran down to Indian River, DE, with 165 cars of grain. Apparently Tyson's
got the train back from Perdue, as 50 were dropped at the interchange, as
well as 65 more left on C-track in Indian River. THe remaining cars are
being taken to Mountairre in Millsboro, DE. Power for the train was PRR
SD40-2 3441, PRR SD40-2 3388, PRR C30-7A 8111, and PRR GP40-2 3046. The H42
crew took roughly 60 more cars down to Indian River, these all being stone,
where they were placed in the VFL facility down there.
Another H99 ran down to Delmar, this one with 51 loads for Tyson's in King's
Creek. This train was powered by PRR SD60I 6734, C40-9 8873, and PRR C30-7A
8100. Before picking up PRR B36-7 3617 at Delmar, they swapped power so that
they could have a nothward facing unit leaving town. The consist heading
back to Harrington lite was C40-9 8873, PRR SD60I 6734, PRR C40-7A 8100, and
PRR B36-7 3617.
That's all for now from Delmarva,
Scott Harris
Delmarva Secondary
MP 105.3, Yard Limit (Ghost) CROWN
here's a reply I picked off the e-mail list
an industry source was kind enough to check his contacts at the TA,
and provides the following details:
"Just confirmed that it was indeed the NYCTA EM80 car, moving back
to Plasser for an upgrade of its equipment (I didn't ask specifically
what the upgrades were to be). The EM80 is now 15 years old, so I'm
sure various components (like the on-board PDP10 computer) are
obsolete and in need of replacement.
"Tony Cabrera (who has operated the EM80 and another car for the TA
for the last 15 years) was on board the movement. The car is his
baby.
"TA calls it the TG-01. There is also a TG-02, which has a laser
clearance measurement system and also (I believe) a rail wear
measurement system. Both cars are occasionally loaned to other
agencies. TG-01 has tested the Staten Island Railroad (in the 80s
when there was still a track connection, sort of) and PATH."
hope this information helps.
G. T. Paine
Washington Grove Pacer Farm
Washington Grove, MD
MP 20.5 on the CSX (former B&O) Metropolitan Subdivision
george@pacerfarm.org
http://www.pacerfarm.org
[H99 ran down to Indian River, DE, with 165 cars of grain. Apparently Tyson's got the train back from Perdue]
Good Lord, chickens eat a lot!!
Not really. You ought to see Tyson's chicken farms. I think they have more live chickens than there are people in the USA at any given time.
That's a lotta cluckin'!!!!
And a whole lot better tasting than any Pig :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I take that as a compliment! The bitterness of my kind fares better to our welfare, if you know what I mean.
But, how would you know?
True. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[You ought to see Tyson's chicken farms. I think they have more live chickens than there are people in the USA at any given time.]
It's probably easy to find the farms. Just get within 10 miles or so, and follow your nose the rest of the way. P-U!
I can't help but think there is a lot more to installing a trolley pole on the roof of a subway car than just climbing up on a car roof and screwing the base to the roof. I know that a number of the older el cars also operated with a trolley pole at one time in their history.
Doesn't a sturdy base have to be constructed on a car's roof before a trolley pole can be mounted?
Are third rail pick-up shoes removed from cars when trolley poles installed?
Are trolley pole pick-ups required at transit museums because of insurance regulations which prohibit third rail pick-up?
Is there a trolley pole kit available, or are the necessary parts borrowed from old street cars, or scratch built?
Karl,
I'm not an expert on installing trolley poles, but I can answer a few of your questions. First of all, I don't think our insurance specifically prohibits third rail, but using it would be just plain dumb with tourists walking around (no less us members!). And yes, we certainly do disconnect the third rail shoes.
This happens to be part of the reason for the new power cable for the R-9 at Shoreline/Branford (ref other thread today).
That is to say, currently the 3rd rail assy is live & the power cable from the trolley pole on the roof is connected to it. The new cable will take a different route, so will make the car safer AND because the cable isn't hanging out it won't get caught & ripped off any more.
At Shoreline we've saved a number of trolley pole assy. so any new RT cars can be powered and run very happily on the line. Heck if you take the photo at the right angle you don't even see the trolley pole.
Mr t__:^)
The pickup shoes are disconnected. Jeff can go into more detail. To have hot shoes will cause quite a stir, let alone a mishap.
-Stef
The shoe fuse is pulled so the shoes are dead even though the wire looks like it goes in there on the R9. I asked Jeff and yup I am sure he can give more details (exact ones at that).
What I find intresting that all the Rapid Transit cars at Branford are "wired" to the pole differently. When we were doing the muck on 6688 (R17) I saw the cable coming in the roof under the pole run in the roof to the front of the car through two bulkheads and down to the bottom of the car. Almost like what the R9 will have but slightly different. It was also a kick vacuming around that live wire, knowing what was running through it!!
I remember when I was on the tour at Branford, the guide/motorman said that third rails are illegal in Connecticut.
Most operating transportation museums that feature electrically powered cars (steam or diesel equipment obviously doesn't require an external electricity source, so no third rail or overhead wire is required) were originally formed to take streetcars, which used trolley poles and occasionally pantographs. Therefore, useing an overhead trolley wire to power the cars was the natural choice since the streetcars were already outfitted for that type of current collection.
Useing a third rail at a museum would require that all of the original streetcars be modified to use it, and insurance premiums wouldn't be a problem at all to pay for, since the third rails are so dangerous no insurance company would provide coverage.
With respect to old El cars, most of them had trolley poles, although the new ones don't.
The Halton County Radial Railway (http://www.hcry.org) has #48 from Chicago, which is a single unit PCC derivative rapid transit car, constructed from PCC streetcar parts which were salvaged when the streetcar system in Chicago was abandoned in the late 1950s (1957, and March are the year and month that come to mind immediately but I don't know if that's correct or not). This car was originally fitted with trolley poles at each end to operate on the Skokie Swift service, but they were later removed. When the museum acquired this car, they installed new trolley poles on a new roof rack anchored to the original supports on the car, still in place, and fed the wire from the poles down the original conduit, that was also left intact after the CTA removed the poles in the 1970s after the town of Evanston permitted the CTA to convert entirely to third rail operation. In this case, restoring the El car to use trolley poles was a simple matter since it had originally been equipped to do so.
On the other hand, when the Halton County Radial Railway Museum obtained two G1 subway cars from the TTC when they were withdrawn from service, setting them up to run with trolley poles was more complicated, since they were designed for third rail only operation.
To set up a car to run with trolley poles that was not designed for it you need to:
1) Reenforce the roof and wall structures of the car being modified if necessary (and it may not be necessary depending on how ruggedly the car was designed) to take the additional weight of the trolley pole or pantograph being installed. There are no kits available that I know of, but you can always use a normal trolley pole or pantograph salvaged of another car or bought new in the retrofit.
2) Construct an electrically insulated platform on top of the car, firmly attached to the body with several inches of air clearance, to prevent electricity from arcing from live poles to the grounded car bodyunder wet weather, which the trolley pole or pantograph will be attached.
3) Install an electrical conduit running from the insulated platform on top of the car, through the roof of the car and down inside a wall to wherever the connection to the car's electrical equipment must be made on the underside of the car. Once this is done, pull a thick insulated wire meeting your electrical requirements throught the conduit, and connect it to the car's electrical equipment.
4) Attach the pole or pantograph to the insulated platform on top of the car, and connect the other end of the cable to the pole or pantograph, making sure that no uninsulated parts which will be carrying an electrical charge from the overhead can come in contact with the grounded car body, otherwise a short circuite will occur.
5) If useing a pole, make sure to attach a thick rope to it so you can place the pole on the wire, or pull it off when necessary. Pantographs generally come with a mechanisim to raise and lower them.
6) With respect to third rail shoes, they can be removed, or for authenticity reasons kept as long as they are disconnected from the live electrical circuits in the car entirely. If they are left on and connected, they will carry a charge and be a danger if someone bumps into one.
After all of this is done, the car is ready to run under its own power (finally!), drawn off of an overhead trolley wire or catenary, assuming all the other restorations necessary have been completed.
Don't forget that a THIRD RAIl is just that, another rail to maintain (covered or not) in additon to the wire that has been there for 100 years at Brandford.
Right Lou. Could you imagine the extra work required to remove and replace the Third Rail just to do normal roadbed maintainance like rail or tie replacement/alignment? That would be an added challange for a small RR.
Doug aka BMTman
I imagine that third rail operation on any tourist railroad would be a real safety problem. It seems reasonable that overhead wire would be a much safer way to go. If there were a operating museum anywhere that used rapid transit cars exclusively, I imagine they would still opt for overhead wire. Third rail just seems too risky with tourists walking around the cars.
Thanks so much for the information, and the link to The Halton County Radial Rwy!
Well done
Joe
Don't forget to add a lightning arrestor near the pole(s). These can be obtained from trolley spare parts dealers, other museums, or even new. This is to protect your passengers and the car if struck by lightning.
Also, since most subway/el cars draw a substantial amount of amps, make sure your main power feed from the pole to the car's electrical equipment is one piece - no spliced together pieces.
Good luck and have fun!!
Don't forget to add a lightning arrestor near the pole(s). These can be obtained from trolley spare parts dealers, other museums, or even new. This is to protect your passengers and the car if struck by lightning.
Also, since most subway/el cars draw a substantial amount of amps, make sure your main power feed from the pole to the car's electrical equipment is one piece - no spliced together pieces.
Good luck and have fun!!
Streetcar service in Chicago came to an end in the early morning hours on June 21, 1958. Green Hornet #7213 made the last run on the last line, the southern half of the #22 Clark-Wentworth route.
And speaking of subway cars with trolley poles, Chicago's 4000-series cars came equipped with them. Well, the ones numbered from 4200 and up, anyway. Assuming they were still in running condition when acquired by museums, they would be as close to being ready-to-run as you can get. I don't believe Shoreline's 4280 is operable.
To Mr. King's excellent post I would add the following:
Add a lightning arrestor (point made by Mr. Lorenzen).
Add a choke coil. The choke coil goes in series between the main fuse and the lightning arrestor. Its purpose is to provide a slight resistance so that lightning does indeed go through the arrestor, not the car wiring.
If you are putting 2 poles on the car, the easiest thing to do is run a conduit and cable along the roof from one base to the other, rather than run two cables through the roof to the underbody.
Try to use a fairly big cable; I used 500MCM on Seashore's Bridge Subway car. Welding cable is also good since it is thinly stranded. Trolley wire is usually 4/0 but heat is acceptable in an open-air uninsulated situation, not so inside a vehicle.
Catchers: I clamped mine onto the pantograph gates so I didn't have to weld or drill the car body. Another thing to do is weld a plate for the catcher onto the anticlimber, since the steel there is quite thick and nearly indestructible. Having a dangling trolley rope can invite disaster!
I also used lineman's snakes on the pole so I wouldn't strike the roof with a live pole. Trackless Trolley poles are insulated, you can use them if you have them, but remove the swivel harps. PCC and TT bases are different but look similar; make sure you have a matched set.
I also laminated the roof boards. The cleats I attached through the roof with a 3/4" threaded rod fastened to the carlines. Kept painted and caulked, they are there "for eternity" (I hope!). The same rods hold down one set of roof boards; the second set (that actually hold the pole base) are bolted to that set in a breakaway fashion. That way the (live) bolts that hold down the base are submerged in wood and are nowhere near the roof. Also if the pole snags the base will be easily ripped off the lower roof boards without damage to the roof or the cleats. Makes for easy replacement. Accidents will happen!
Make sure to keep the harp and base swivel greased, and avoid kinks/tight turns in your wire. The rule of thumb is to keep anything live with 600V at least 6 inches away from any grounded steel (about the length of a strain insulator).
I also wouldn't recommend burying the wire inside the car if you can get away without doing so. Best not to disturb the integrity of the car and create potential leaks. The easiest thing to do is just run a plastic conduit down the side of the car, held in place with cable ties or clips welded to the car body. It may look "unfinished" but it's minimally invasive.
I would also recommend not forgetting a hook, expecially if installing 2 poles. Use a big two-footed hook, not the little c-shaped hooks that PCCs used. Those were just designed to hold the pole down while the car was in storage. I always both hook the unused pole down AND wrap the rope around the catcher several times. Another neat trick is to use red and green electrical tape on the rope. Put red on the rope so it's visible to you when the pole is UP, green when its DOWN. That way you won't backpole by mistake.
I bolted my hooks to a block of wood, submerging the countersunk bolt heads within the wood and filling the holes with bondo. Then I fastened the wood to the roof with angle iron and 1/4" thunderbolts. Thus I didn't have to remove the headliner inside the car to have something to bolt the hook to. I used PLENTY of caulking under the wood.
Another advantage to 2 poles vs. 1 is that you will never swing the pole around 180 degrees. So you can install a shunt from the pole to the base, this will keep current from arcing across the bearings of the base. This is normally not a problem but there is ALWAYS a first time, especially since big subway cars draw a lot of current.
Also do some homework to determine optimum base placement. The base location and pole length are a function of the location of the kingpin vs. the anticlimber and the roof height. You want a pole that swivels and attacks the wire frog so it tracks the wire properly. If possible the thing to do is install the roof boards then do a test; CLAMP (don't bolt) the base to the boards and try poles of several lengths. Go through your special work and see which tracks the wire best. Generally subway cars require a short pole since the roof is higher than most streetcars. If you cut the pole down make sure you dont totally lose the inserts; a trolley pole is a tapered tube with inserts at each end, designed so the harp and pole base dont crush the pole. If you cut out the insert get a pipe about 2' long and the size of the ID of the pole, freeze it the refrigerator, grease it, then heat the pole with an acetylene torch, and whack the insert in.
Paint the pole ends and interior of the base with aluminum paint (it contains aluminum powder and will conduct electricity). For the same reason avoid painting the roof boards with any metallic paint, even if your roof is (say, silver). Use a neutral color like grey instead.
Another worthwhile investment of your time is to clip (not tie) the rope to the harp and use anti-chafing sleeves on the rope. You'll be amazed how many times you'll unclip it to do maintenance on the roof. Untieing a knot is just a pain in the neck. While you're at it cap or disconnect wires and pipes to the coupler, unless you have something to couple your car to. They are just a nuisance and maintenance headache. Of course document and photograph everything you do so it can be undone if the need ever arises....
A rope guard is also good to have. This will prevent your rope from chafing on the rain gutters at the edge of the roof. I made one out of some round stock, flattened the ends, and welded it to the roof.
BTW, several AB's had trolley poles for test purposes, so very little museums do is without some historic precedent!
Every subway car is a little different. The primary difficulty
is mounting the pole base onto the metal roof. We (at Shore Line)
follow the same practices used in the streetcar industry for
metal-roof cars (there weren't that many of them). We construct
a series of wood cleats that get affixed to the roof structure.
Generally, we drill out a few rivets that hold the roof sheet
steel down to the carline and put in a bolt that holds the cleat
on top of the roof. The cleat provides a few inches of air between
the 600V pole base and the grounded metal roof.
We then have to get an insulated wire downstairs. Since most subway
cars were built with third-rail power pickup only, this means
running down through the carbody somehow. 1689 and 3662 at
Shore Line (Branford) were given "temporary" poles 20+ years ago
and the wire was simply run over the side of the car and then
spliced in underneath.
As I said, each car is different. On the Lo-V (5466), we found a
spot where we could come straight down through the bulkhead where
the cables come up to the cab. On the R-17 (6688), we enter the
hidden ceiling plenum (where the 3/4 ton gang was cleaning steel
dust) and then continue down through a stanchion pole. On 1689,
we came down from the top of the deckroof into the off-side marker
light area, then down inside a recess in the storm door pocket,
through a void for the handbrake staff, and back to the quick-
disconnect for the #2 (trailer) truck. It's all in "sealtight",
which is a flexible steel armored cable with a weather-resistant,
insulating outer coating. We use insulating bushings throughout,
so for a ground fault to occur, the #4/0 insulated copper wire has
to short to the steel armor, and the armor in turn has to punch
through the outer insulation as well.
I don't know of any museums running with 3rd rail. In Connecticut,
it is against state law (for any railway), so the point is moot.
We try to leave the third rail shoes on the car for authenticity
(unless they present impossible clearance problems), but we
disconnect the leads so they aren't back-fed from the trolley pole.
Interestingly enough, when you look at wiring diagrams for subway
cars, the 600 volt circuits are all designated, e.g., T1, T11A,
etc. The T stands for "Trolley".
Seashore has some different policies than us. I know from speaking
with their RT curator, Bill P., that they didn't want to alter
their R9s to install the pole. The pole base is up there with
some kind of temporary clamp, and the wire runs out the side.
They leave them permanently coupled and outdoors, so this isn't
a big problem.
Our policy has been that it is OK to make a few holes here and there,
as long as it is clear what the alterations were and it is fairly
easy to reverse them if, for whatever reason, we someday wanted
to get rid of the pole. As a rule, we only equip subway cars with
a single pole so that one can still take a fully authentic-looking
photograph of at least one end.
Most museums have a bunch of pole bases, poles and wheels or shoes
in their spare parts inventory, and that's what we use too.
Jeff,
Thanks for the very thorough post. It is interesting to note that the stanchions have been used to hold 600v cable as well as A/C lines. I cannot visualize how heavy a cable must be to carry 600v, but I'm sure that it must be quite a bit heavier than what I use on my model railroad.
I have seen pictures of BU cars 659 and 1227 which seem to indicate that these two cars have two trolley poles, and that their pickup shoes have been removed. Pictures of 1349 indicate that it has no trolley poles. If the third rail pick-up shoes are left on a car with poles, is there some way that a person can see that they have been disconnected and are not "hot"?
With only one pole on some cars is there a problem with reverse direction running, in maintaining electrical contact, or is the single pole a "turnable" pole?
Have you ever had any problems with weather deterioration of the wood cleats on a car roof?
If you were to ever run 1227 and 1349 together, would it be possible to feed 600v to 1349 through a jumper cable under the car floor?
This has nothing to do with the trolley poles, but how heavy is the coupler pin used to couple two cars that have Van Dorn couplers?
The 4/0 wire we use for main circuit wiring is about 1" in
diameter, including insulation. Most of the heft is not because
of the voltage but becaues of the current which it must handle,
as high as 700A peak.
Both 659 and 1227 have poles. The shoe beams were somewhat
decrepit and were removed years ago. We plan to fabricate new
ones to mount the BRT-style pickup shoes. 1349 has no poles.
One school of thought was to leave it that way and power it from
a jumper. That would be consistent with the ongoing restoration,
which will depict it at the end of its career in the 1950s.
Some of the BUs were given poles by NYCTS when they entered work
service, but 1349 doesn't appear to have been one of them.
I personally would rather put at least one pole on the car because
it is otherwise very difficult to move it around. We can't make
moves across the yard ladders while coupled.
We keep the wooden cleats painted and they have not deteriorated.
On the BU cars, there is already a knife switch, located in the
bonnet over one of the platforms, which takes power either from
the overhead or the shoes. When the overhead is selected, the
shoes are not connected and are dead.
The link pin used with a Van Dorn coupler is about a foot long
by 3 inches wide by 3 inches high, and weighs about 20 lbs.
On cars with a single pole, we spin the pole around for high-speed
running in the other direction. For low-speed moves we simply
back-pole.
Jeff H,
Thank you for all of the answers to my specific questions! I have learned a lot from you and the other posters at this site.
I have just one more question, and then I won't ask anything for at least a week.
I never saw a Van Dorn coupler equipped car with a link pin sticking out of it (at the front or rear of a train). Where were the extra link pins kept when these cars were in service? Was there a place on the undercarriage of the car to hang one? Was one stored on the floor of the motorman's cab?
I've seen 3 car trains put together to make 6 car trains at Grant Ave on the old Fulton St el, and cars added to make a 3 car train into a 5 car train at 111th St on the Jamaica Line. I always wondered where the link pin came from to couple these cars together. Any thoughts on this?
On the BUs there is a hook for the link pin in the cab.
It is on the wall that adjoins the platform, between the
brake stand and the controller.
I have been looking for years at Railroadiana shows trying to find route and destination signs for the BU's with no success. Maybe I should switch and start hunting for a link pin. At 20 lbs, it sure would make one hell of a paper weight.
Hats off to all the people who contributed R142 photos in the last week....they look great! Of course, thanks to Dave for posting them as well. It was nice to find them on the return from a week off in Florida. -Nick
I was wondering about this Friday's ceremony marking the 100th anniversary of the groundbreaking of the subway, scheduled for 11 AM. Who will be in attendance, as far as subtalkers, and regioanlly famous people (the mayor? E. Virgil Conway?)? Will this be a long event, like the rededication of Grand Central Station a couple years ago, or a brief 15 to 30 minute deal? I'm trying to decide whether to come home from Boston for this or not.
Also, if I do come home....is the R142 testing still going on in the early afternoon? May as well get my first glimpse of them if so. -Nick
I have been trying to get some advance information but everyone is being tight lipped on this one.
Personally I would have liked to see a re-enactment of the ground breaking down at City Hall but Rudy would probably think that we were terrorists trying to dig up City Hall.
Thanks for trying, Allan. Don'tknow why they would be tight lipped about this....don't they want people to come? Well, if you do find out anything, please be sure to pass it on asap.
As for digging up City Hall, hehehe....yeah, Rudy would not appreciate that! But I'm hoping for the 100th anniversary of the opening of the subway (October 27, 2004) they'll do a re-enactment down there: have the current mayor operate a subway from City Hall at 2:35 PM. -Nick
>>>But I'm hoping for the 100th anniversary of the opening of the subway (October 27, 2004) they'll do a re-enactment down there: have the current mayor operate a subway from City Hall at 2:35 PM.<<<
Great idea, but today is a totally different world. I don't think the TWU or RTO, for that matter, would have any part of such a stunt.
Peace,
Andee
Then we need an "Elect a Motorman" campaign in 2001!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you're gonna come all the way home for the ceremony,
DO IT.
If you're gonna come all the way home for the R-142's,
DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME.
REDBIRDSROCK
"If you're gonna come all the way home for the R-142's,
DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME."
YES! I'll make sure not to waste time riding any of those annoying rustbirds that day.
>>Great idea, but today is a totally different world. I don't think the TWU or RTO, for that matter, would have any part of such a stunt.<<
Andee,
If the MTA brass sanctions it then I don't think RTO will have any say in the matter. As far as the TWU is concerned why would they object?
They would be crazy not to have some sort of commemorative event on Oct. 27, 2004. It will fall on Wednesday, and I can guarantee that I will be on hand no matter what is planned.
Well it's nice to know we'll have a crowd 4 1/2 years from now (myself included). But as for this Friday, who (as in subtalkers) are planning to go, and what is the latest scoop? -Nick
I'll be there early.
No new information yet.
I'll be there early.
No new information yet.
It starts at 11 AM I think....I'll be there at least 20-30 minutes before then, maybe even sooner (If I do go). I'm still wondering what the tight-lipped thing is all about...do u suppose the first lady is making a campaign stop there? She's already ridden the subway, and marched in the St. Patty's Day Parade.
Anyways, I guess we'll keep waiting for info until its released. :) -Nick
It will also be six days before the 2004 presidental/congressional/N.Y. Senate elections, so that pretty much guarentees there will be a major turnout, at least of politicians.
I don't know who the other hopefuls will be, but if I can't make it, say hello to Chuck Schumer for me -- his term's up that year, and he couldn't pass up an opportunity like that. (Special double-barf alert if he's running against Pataki in 2004)
I have an invite. Conway will be there.
Peace,
Andee
Where????????
Transit Museum Gift shop at Grand Central
Oppy, the Subway Sun poster maker, is remembered fondly here at...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/subwaysun/subwaysun.html
There were a few posts here last week about the status of the MBTA (Boston) Green Line Type-8 cars.
Today's Boston Globe says that "...Breda is in the final stages of finishing up its work repairing software and hardware problems that hampered reliability. The T hopes to put two of the Breda trains back on line in early spring and, if successful, add three to four trains a month to its Green Line stock." The article goes on to state that Breda paid for the fixes, and are going to be facing some financial penalties for falling behind on the original delivery schedule. According to the article, the software is provided to Breda under a subcontract with Adtranz, a Daimler-Chrysler subsidiary.
While initial problems included propultion and and system status software, the incident that made the T pull the plug was unreliable braking during slippery rail conditions (in the fall, when wet leaves were a problem) which should have been handled by the spin-slide system (spin-slide is the rail version of an anti-lock braking system).
A picture of the Type-8 is available on the New England Transit Web site.
By the way, I take exception to the article's author referring to "trains." These are "cars" or "trolleys," but not trains unless more than one are coupled together!
It's a little hard to make out in the photo, but the Type-8's appear to be double-articulated, as opposed to the single articulation joint in use on the existing Green Line cars. Am I correct, or are my eyes playing tricks on me?
I'm not as into light-rail/trolley vehicles as I am into heavy-rail trains, but it will still be interesting to check them out. Hopefully there will be a few running by the time I move to Boston.
-- David
Chicago, IL
(Hmm... I guess I'll have to create some MBTA-style banners one of these days.)
The cars are indeed double-articulated. The articulation on these cars is quite interesting, in fact. The Type-8's are Low-Floor cars, and the floor maintains the low level through the articulation. This is achieved by having power trucks at both ends, with a fixed, axle-less truck under the middle articulation section. The floor of the car actually passes between the wheels, eliminating the need for a raised section in the middle of the car. For more info on these cars check out http://members.aol.com/grisolan/type8/type8.html
When the Westside line was opened in 1990 and Amtrak trains were re-routed from Grand Central to Penn. Station, there was talk of possibly routing some Metro-North trains from Poughkeepsie to Penn. Sta., as well. Has this plan gone by the boards?
Carl M.
Let's put it this way - it hasn't happened yet and, given the capacity issues in Penn Station, it's not likely to. Amtrak and Penn Station's current tenants are trying to find ways to increase capacity just to accomodate the routes that currently are served there; bringing in more trains that already have a reasonable terminus would make that effort even more difficult than it already is.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
/*Amtrak and Penn Station's current tenants are
trying to find ways to increase capacity just to accomodate the routes that currently are served there; bringing in more trains that already have a reasonable
terminus would make that effort even more difficult than it already is. */
Maybe if Amtrak would stop laying up trains down there, and get rid of the 25 min stops and not terminate everything at Penn, there'd be capacity...
I'm under the impression that when the PRR was running it, it handled more traffic, AND the LIRR stuff without the West Side yard.
I've seen Amtrak trains sitting there at all hours of the day (and on weekends there are plenty just parked there). Ditto (but nowhere near as bad) for NJT. I've never once seen an LIRR train just siiting there.
There is an official MTA study on bringing MN trains to Penn. It is contingent on first diverting LIRR trains to GCT, thereby freeing up capacity.
And the MTA not going broke in five years.
I heard from a T/O on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle that it is hard to charge up a R44. Apparently it's not the R46 "Handle-Off" to "Full Service" method. How DO you charge up an R44?
Went up to Canal St. The Manhattan bound platform looks real good. Bklyn bound still in disarray. There were workers on the tracks working on the columns. Saw someone waiting for a train. Went up to get the 6. The cars were from Corona. It was high 9400, low 9500's. The last two cars are 9485-9484......
Car 1446 on the 4 have big black picture painted on its window.
Car 9142 on the 2 have DIALLO scribbled all over the car. I guess for Amamdou..........
3Train#1977Mike
I don't get it... how does scribbling "DIALLO" all over a car get a point across?
You're assuming the author has the intelligence to make any sort of point. Grafitti artists aren't rocket scientists.
The R36WF cars assigned to the #6 Line are #9478-9523, minus #9500-9501, which are "withdrawn".
Wayne
Withdrawn??????
3TM
There's another set of abandoned tracks in Queens that perhaps could be hiked: Conrail tracks that connect the active Amtrak line in Astoria with the LIRR at Bushwick Junction. Are they navigable?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Ideal choice, gets rather close to Roosevelt Ave punchouts.
avid
They are NOT abandoned.
Don't worry, Another tour of an abandoned line is set for April 9, 2000. I'll tell more about what line it is and everything else later today.
>>>They are NOT abandoned. <<
You sure? Trees are growing on the elevated structure that crosses Queens Blvd.
That's CSX's branch to Frsh Pond Yard with connections to the NY&A and the Bay Ridge Branch. At least 2 trains per weekday use it.
Does anybody know if any Hollywood movie studio is interested in acquiring any of the Redbirds? This would seem to be the right time to be looking.
This is one way to save a bunch of them, since they will be needed when a movie needs to be filmed in what is supposed to be NYC in the 60s-90s. Just as long they don't end up destroying them later on for some kind of cheap thrill shootem-up action flick.
Another possible future for some redbirds is to have them converted into some kind of landmark or freestanding structure. In upstate NY they have quite a few places that old Red Cabooses have been turned into a landmark for the smaller towns. Also, up past White Plains, there is a steak house that was created from an old railcar. I don't recall the name. Maybe the same can be done for a redbird.
I wonder if one can be donated to the Smithsonian. I think they do represent a significant point of American culture. Although it is really NYC culture, almost anybody who visited NYC and took a subway may have at one point or another rode a redbird. One may have already be sent to DC, I'm not sure. It's been a while since I went there.
Anyway, I just thought these were some ways for some of the redbirds to be preserved. They may not run on rails, but at least they'll escape the scrapper's torch.
Thanks.
send some to new york las vegas !!!
i suppose you want pancakes with that?
One might as well make a mockup in a non-rail museum.
why not have them run on other subway lines as history museum runs etc ???
Like the Nostalgia Train? Sure!
love it !! lasted longer than a r142 ever will
Actually, I think the best idea would be to use them as temporary homeless shelters. Everyone gets a 'private car'....
Far-fetched, I know.
-Hank
Why say this are you planning on moving into one?
Do you expect the cars to last forever in passenger service.
I assume you also believe that you will never die.
maybe they will last only 10 years then what do you do with all of that aluminum & plastic junk ???...
The Redbirds wont even last another ten years!
I agree with you again!
use the REDBIRDS for homeless shelters ??? i didnt know you had it in you HANK !! good show !!!!!!!
Then Redbirds would work better than they do now
Does anybody know if any Hollywood movie studio is interested in acquiring any of the Redbirds? This would seem to be the right time to be looking.
This is one way to save a bunch of them, since they will be needed when a movie needs to be filmed in what is supposed to be NYC in the 60s-90s. Just as long they don't end up destroying them later on for some kind of cheap thrill shootem-up action flick.
Another possible future for some redbirds is to have them converted into some kind of landmark or freestanding structure. In upstate NY they have quite a few places that old Red Cabooses have been turned into a landmark for the smaller towns. Also, up past White Plains, there is a steak house that was created from an old railcar. I don't recall the name. Maybe the same can be done for a redbird.
I wonder if one can be donated to the Smithsonian. I think they do represent a significant point of American culture. Although it is really NYC culture, almost anybody who visited NYC and took a subway may have at one point or another rode a redbird. One may have already be sent to DC, I'm not sure. It's been a while since I went there.
Anyway, I just thought these were some ways for some of the redbirds to be preserved. They may not run on rails, but at least they'll escape the scrapper's torch.
Thanks.
A question: Who did the artwork at each of the stations along Queens Blvd (33-Rawson, 40-Lowery, 46-Bliss)?
A few updates to the Station-by-Station
All stations along Queens Blvd, Main St, Times Sq, Grand Central have MVM's
33-Rawson: Crossunder at 34th St exit*. 33rd St has dual fare control. Old sign exists at street entrance at the SE entrance at 33 Street Picture (549K)
40-Lowery: Dual Fare Control at 40th St exit
46-Bliss: Resembles 33-Rawson. Crossunder at 47th St exit*.
* Crossunders open only when booths open
69-Fisk Av: No windscreen at platform ends
74-Broadway: A total of 5 escalators connect Flushing Line to IND line: 3 @ 73 St, 2 @ 74 St.
Main St: Lippman Plaza exit open. 3 escalators, 1 stairway, 1 elevator. MVM's @ Main St entrance only
Mark W. who planed the LIRR Rockaway walk is planning a walk on the old SIR North Shore line. It will take place on the 9th of April.
ANyone interested in comming? We will take a bus to Port Richmond
and climb onto the El, which by the way is falling apart as we speak.
I believe we will be there.
I'd like to participate ... although I'll probably restrict it to those areas that don't require a machete. Anon_e_mouse Jr. and I would be driving up from New Jersey so perhaps I can drive the "chase vehicle".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Was the R-44 tested on the LIRR main line. What was the max speed achieved during the test? I heard Mark W. say it was 83.
If that was, how did they do it? Now they cant even reach 40.
I would be nice to have some high speed rail transit.
Was the speed achieved in the Parallel position or was there another power position on the controller?
there are many [pictures of it going through
Forest Hills and in Jamicia. I also have seen that it reached a speed in the low 80's
The subway system was not designed for travel at such speeds. The R44 and R46 were designed and built with the idea of a semi-automated Second Ave line that would be completed in the near future. They were, at the time, the most advanced subway cars built for the city.
-Hank
Different switchgroup, different motor gearing, 750 volts
on the third rail.
I don't seem to recall - I was a little too young to remember, but were the R62's tested in the same manner as the R142's are being tested?
That is, were they put on a test track and given the same testing period. If so, where was the testing track?
Thanks
I dont believe the R62 was given the rigorous testing the R142 has been getting. The R62 was deliberatley designed as simply as possible to get it into service quickly. No fancy gadgets like the R142.
If they only did the same thing.
It's not that the TA didn't WANT a more modern car, it's that they had a hell of a lot to do with very little time and $$$ to do it with. At the time the R62/68 cars arrived, MDBF was abysmal. Track and stations were in terrible condition, and a major track fire was a daily occurance.
They needed to replace cars that had well-outlived their usefulness, and were essentially basket-cases. The sooner they did that, the sooner they could begin working on some of the other problems. SO they took the lessons learned when the R44/46 were built, put them on the shelf (and opened them again for the R110) and went right back to the early R-cars, and started from there.
-Hank
why didnt they just build BRAND NEW r 62s ?? since they made it !! and since they do run why not
continue with the same car and same construction ?? some of them are not transverse cab equipped !!
Because they want cars that will have significantly greater longevity than the R62s, that will consume 30% less power, that will have even better MDBF, etc. etc. etc.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All R62/R62a cars can become cars with transverse cabs at either end. The two seats directly opposite a half-length cab are removed. You can tell they are removable since they are the only seats that have legs on the bottom. The wall behind it has a keyhole which is used to unlock it. Thw wall is moved 90 degrees, perpendicular to the side of the train. A vertical bar is placed where the cab door as well as the movable wall will lock to. A clear window or ad is placed over the hole where the window to side of the train was. That is why sometimes you see Air Conditioned Car Please Close Window stickers over the window to the left of the cab (if no ad is placed over it). Behind the fale wall is the door control panel for the left side. This is an observation made by me after I noticed a few cars on the #1 train which used to have half-length cab one day all of a sudden get a full length cab the next week. Almost all #1/9 trains have full length cabs at the ends of the train as well as the conductor's booth, which is very annoying for those of us who enjoy staying in the back at South Ferry and walk up at the last possible second to count and possibly assist all the people who ignored the announcement and signs on the ends of the cars.
thats pretty good a car that runs were the r -17 once roared across so you can have a railfan window
instantly and when you need it !!! i liked the days when the r 21 - 22 roared on it too !!!!
They didn't undergo as much out-of-service testing as the R-142s are undergoing, but they had to make it through a 30-day in-service test, just as the R-142s must when the time comes.
David
There was an article in the Metro section of the Times today about Cablevision's wanting to rebuild, or even move Madison Square Garden. If that happens, do you think they might be able to get it right this time? When the arena was originally built, Penn Station ended up a paltry, squashed revision of its former glorious self. A rat hole, as it were.
When I read the article, I had a series of visions dancing in my head about how to rectify a 40 year-old travesty of architecture. It never seemed possible until now!
1. (The best!) The Garden moves! (The article suggested a move closer to the Javitz Center.) They sell the site to a developer with the mandate that Penn Station be opened-up, heightened - given some semblance of the Gateway that it once was. The city could give the developer a tax-break in order to accommodate the use of part of the site for the public good. He could then build a commercial building above the station, but in such a way that doesn't relegate the train station to the squashed pit it is now. (I was thinking about something like an atrium, like you see in the Marriot Marquis hotel in Times Square.) You could still attract businesses whose employees commute from NJ or Long Island. Yes, the McKim / Mead / White architecture is long-gone, but let their 21st century successors in the field have a go at it! With NJ Transit, LIRR, and Amtrak all using the same station, you could still incorporate the already-planned use of the Farley Post Office building into the whole scheme!
2. The Garden stays, but its rebuilding incorporates the above. Architects are smart people, and I bet they could figure out a way to have both MSG, and a decent public transit hub at the same time. You see such architecture in European train stations. It could be SO awesome, if they had the balls to consider the city and community.
Keep in mind, I'm, of course, disallowing the fact that the private owner of the site has a right to do with it as he pleases, and no one could impose such costly constraints on his property. But if we can't dream about real estate developers possibly entertaining a touch of civic responsibility, then they never will!
KP
To be honest with you, I never found anything wrong with the garden, why they want to spend millions to rebuild it is beyond me.
It's all about luxury boxes and profit. But look at it this way.
There's a chance, albeit slim, that we could get a beautiful train station again.
Michael
I agree. The Garden is my second home, especially during hockey season. BTW, my Rangers will make the playoffs.
And my devils will whip them out in round one!
Finally, a team we can beat in the first round!
-Hank :)
(Why do they want to spend millions to rebuild the Garden)
They don't. They want the city to give them millions to do it.
Funny, I never found anything RIGHT about it. For one thing, it's not in Madison Square...
-Hank
[rebuilt Penn Station as part of a new MSG]
It sure would be nice, but don't count on it.
If Cablevision rebuilds MSG _in situ_, they're certainly not going to build a new Penn Station. As a publicly traded corporation, Cablevision would be able to incur such a massive cost only if doing so would enhance shareholder value. I can't imagine how that could occur - it's not as if an esthetically displeasing Penn Station prevents people from attending Rangers and Knicks games. This isn't to say that there wouldn't be some improvements, such as new entrances, but we should not hope for any major changes.
Let's assume instead that Cablevision builds a new MSG elsewhere and offers the existing site for development. They're certainly not going to impose a rebuild-Penn-Station condition on potential buyers, as that would reduce the prices they could get and therefore diminish shareholder value. Nor could the city impose such a condition, as that would be tantamount to impairing Cablevision's property rights (by reducing the price they could get) without compensation.
Bottom line, we're not going to see a new Penn Station absent a huge infusion of government $$$. The federal government's already paying for Amtrak's eventual move to the Post Office building, and it's hard to imagine that the MTA or the city would pay money they probably don't have for the replacement of what's a perfectly functional if unattractive station.
Yeah, I know all that.
I was just dreaming that new or the current owners might realize that, since so many people travel through those 2 square blocks every day, a more welcoming, functional environment would be an asset to any development on the site. Grand Central was just remodeled with that in mind, keeping the original design intact while adding shops & restaurants and restoring walkways, etc. I really think you can have both commercial and public development concurrently. Sure, the current Penn station doesn't hinder patronage of the Knicks, Rangers, concerts, etc., but what about the other 21 hours of the day? Couldn't cablevision make more money from a more intelligent use of the station aspect of the site?
Of course, no intelligent American is advocating government interference in the legal use of private property. The Times article just started me day dreaming.
KP
P.S. I don't think there's anything wrong with The Garden itself. I've attended many an event there too. I just wish it hadn't replaced Penn Station.
The Garden is 32 years old and they've been talking about a possible move west for at least the last 15 years. The problem with tearing down the Garden to put up a new Penn Station is you'd have to rip down the two office buildings as well to open up the entire block between 7th and 8th Ave. I don't know if the economics are there for that, plus the Moyhahan plan to redo the post-officer in a pseudo-Penn Station style pretty much guarntees that even if the Garden did move out, they wouldn't duplicate what's supposed to be done on the other side of Eighth Ave.
But getting back to transit for a minute, I have my doubts Cablevision would want to move over near the Javits Center any time in the near future, unless the No. 7 extension is assured on being built. Arenas (and stadiums) either have to come with tons of available parking space or adequate nass transit to get people there without using their cars. A Garden over near the Javits Center would only be convienent to people using the 34th St. crosstown bus -- everone else would face a three-block hike back to Penn Station to get the A/C/E trains.
Geez. I thought this post wasgonna be about Chinese food when I saw MSG......
Rim shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have the pleasure of riding New Jersey Transit between Jersey Avenue - New Brunswick and New York Penn everyday.
It seems to me that the Arrow III's, which were given a severe GOH between 1992 and 1994, aren't holding up too well. Recently, I've had to ride in darkened cars, and it seems that just about every other car has a flat wheel making for alot of noise. If you are sitting up front, and hit 60-70 Mph, you get a good draft.
Anyone with any insights?
To be honest with you, I never found anything wrong with the garden, why they want to spend millions to rebuild it is beyond me.
It's all about luxury boxes and profit. But look at it this way.
There's a chance, albeit slim, that we could get a beautiful train station again.
Michael
I agree. The Garden is my second home, especially during hockey season. BTW, my Rangers will make the playoffs.
And my devils will whip them out in round one!
Finally, a team we can beat in the first round!
-Hank :)
(Why do they want to spend millions to rebuild the Garden)
They don't. They want the city to give them millions to do it.
Funny, I never found anything RIGHT about it. For one thing, it's not in Madison Square...
-Hank
railfan windows on some new jersey commuter rail transit ???
i couldnt believe it !! wow that would shoot one hell of a vidieo !!!
The Arrow MU's have a window in the cab door which is occasionally unblocked, and sometimes you can get the engineer to leave the door open for you. I've ridden up front on runs from Dover-Hoboken and back when I used to ride NJT every day...
-Dave
does anyone know where i can get the texts to all the "for a better ride..." messages that were recently plastered all over nyc subway cars? does anyone at least know whether they were sponsored by the mta or nyc transit?
thanks
[rebuilt Penn Station as part of a new MSG]
It sure would be nice, but don't count on it.
If Cablevision rebuilds MSG _in situ_, they're certainly not going to build a new Penn Station. As a publicly traded corporation, Cablevision would be able to incur such a massive cost only if doing so would enhance shareholder value. I can't imagine how that could occur - it's not as if an esthetically displeasing Penn Station prevents people from attending Rangers and Knicks games. This isn't to say that there wouldn't be some improvements, such as new entrances, but we should not hope for any major changes.
Let's assume instead that Cablevision builds a new MSG elsewhere and offers the existing site for development. They're certainly not going to impose a rebuild-Penn-Station condition on potential buyers, as that would reduce the prices they could get and therefore diminish shareholder value. Nor could the city impose such a condition, as that would be tantamount to impairing Cablevision's property rights (by reducing the price they could get) without compensation.
Bottom line, we're not going to see a new Penn Station absent a huge infusion of government $$$. The federal government's already paying for Amtrak's eventual move to the Post Office building, and it's hard to imagine that the MTA or the city would pay money they probably don't have for the replacement of what's a perfectly functional if unattractive station.
Yeah, I know all that.
I was just dreaming that new or the current owners might realize that, since so many people travel through those 2 square blocks every day, a more welcoming, functional environment would be an asset to any development on the site. Grand Central was just remodeled with that in mind, keeping the original design intact while adding shops & restaurants and restoring walkways, etc. I really think you can have both commercial and public development concurrently. Sure, the current Penn station doesn't hinder patronage of the Knicks, Rangers, concerts, etc., but what about the other 21 hours of the day? Couldn't cablevision make more money from a more intelligent use of the station aspect of the site?
Of course, no intelligent American is advocating government interference in the legal use of private property. The Times article just started me day dreaming.
KP
P.S. I don't think there's anything wrong with The Garden itself. I've attended many an event there too. I just wish it hadn't replaced Penn Station.
The Garden is 32 years old and they've been talking about a possible move west for at least the last 15 years. The problem with tearing down the Garden to put up a new Penn Station is you'd have to rip down the two office buildings as well to open up the entire block between 7th and 8th Ave. I don't know if the economics are there for that, plus the Moyhahan plan to redo the post-officer in a pseudo-Penn Station style pretty much guarntees that even if the Garden did move out, they wouldn't duplicate what's supposed to be done on the other side of Eighth Ave.
But getting back to transit for a minute, I have my doubts Cablevision would want to move over near the Javits Center any time in the near future, unless the No. 7 extension is assured on being built. Arenas (and stadiums) either have to come with tons of available parking space or adequate nass transit to get people there without using their cars. A Garden over near the Javits Center would only be convienent to people using the 34th St. crosstown bus -- everone else would face a three-block hike back to Penn Station to get the A/C/E trains.
Next in the popular walking tour series is the SIRT, Ex- B&O North Shore Line also known as the Arlington Branch. We will walk the line from Port Richmond to the Drawbridge to NJ. There are several stations as well as n elevated line. This is one not to miss.
Date: Sunday, April 9, 2000
Time/Place: On the 10:30AM ferry by the snack bar (Middle deck) Or 11:10AM at the bottom of the stairs to the SIRT.
BECAUSE OF HALF HOURLY FERRY SERVICE, WE CAN NOT WAIT FOR YOU. GIVE YOURSELF PLENTY OF TIME TO BE AT SOUTH FERRY IN TIME FOR THE BOAT.
E-mail me for info.
-Mark
That is one I would like to do.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Please be aware that in several sections the tracks are hanging loose over the water - particularly near Sailor's Snug Harbor. The entire line is in total disrepair and the stations have been abandoned for 47 years. It passes through some high crime territory around Jersey Street and further west near Grandview Ave. I don't want to read about you guys in the S.I. Advance the next day so be extra careful!
Be aware that this section of the lin is mostly on concrete viaduct and open cut. It has some very heavy weed growth, and transits some areas that are not-too-hospitable to people with expensive possesions, although a large group shouldn't have a problem. No section of this line is washed out, and NYCDOT maintains the bridges the line uses. Where the line runs along the waterfront (St. George to Pt Richmond) has quite a bit of encroachment and several washouts, and is not a safe walk. At St. George, construction work is taking place on the new stadium. At Jersey St, there is bridge construction, and the tunnel through the former US Gypsum plant has collapsed and is extremely hazardous. Atlantic Salt sits on the ROW just past USG, and there's a ferry dock at the site of the former Snug Harbor station. From Snug Harbor to Port Richmond, the ROW is both washed out, and transits private property (Caddell Dry Dock) and runs behind the Pt Richmond Sewerage Treatment Plant.
If the platforms at Pt. Richmond are accessible, that's where I think we'll start. I have every intention of being there, especially since this is 'home territory' to me.
Oh, it's NOT a short walk. And bringing a lunch might be a good idea.
-Hank
Port Richmond IS where I planned to start. Below there the line is impassable. (Tried last Summer)
I rode the J line last night from Eastern Parkway to Broad St, and then from Broad St to Jamaica Center. I did not do this in person, but through the lens of Salaam's video camera at the railfan window. Salaam apparently rode the J Line late in the afternoon of March 2nd, and taped the entire trip.
I was really shocked at the changes in the line since I last rode it 40 plus years ago. Many of the buildings along the way have been renovated, replaced or are gone completely. Most of the stations have changed through renovations. Very little was familiar except for track.
There seem to be a number of new steel buildings erected on the el structure that weren't there in my day. What are all of those buildings for? They must be necessary for some reason, but I wonder how they operated the line without them years ago.
I enjoyed the trip by viewing Salaam's tape, But I feel very sad about all of the changes that have taken place over the years. The tape sure proved to me that things I thought would never change, have indeed changed!
Most of these new structures were constructed when the entire J line was resignalled 5-7 years ago.
Haven't ridden the J line in 40 years? Wow, must've been cool to hop on the #15 train, made of Standards, to get to 168th St. Weren't those wooden platforms along Fulton St. cool?
i saw the J line for the first time and the "L" line since 1975 when the clsssic R-1 thru R -9 gracefully ran
on it !! the vidieo i shot fit nice with he ""L"" line on one 4 hour format 8 mm tape very well !!!!
then i re- shot the # 5 dyre ave 4 hours long !!!
my last visit three weeks ago was too short man!! I hated to leave !!!!!!!!
Chris.
My home was about 400 feet from foot of the stairs of the Crescent St station, the el on Crescent St passed within 100 feet of my house. I can remember when the waiting room at Crescent St was still being heated by a coal fired pot-belly stove. The station would shake when trains stopped at Norwood Ave. I got on a lot of BU's and Standards at that station. I did not know it was the 15 Line until the R-16's displayed that number. To us it was always the Jamaica Line. Yes, we shopped in Jamaica and always took the train to do it too! In those days, Jamaica was the place to shop, at least according to my mother.
Yup, Jamaica was the shopping capital of western Queens before malls and the moronic demolition of the el killed her off.
it was a lot of fun to shoot on vidieo along with the L as well !!
It sure was something new to me, as I watched Salaam's video, to make that swing to the right, after 121st St, and go into the ground. It was my first glimpse of Archer Ave and Jamaica Center. I'm sorry that he was not videotaping back when the train still had the five old stops.
Just how far out is Jamaica Center? Is it equivilent to about 160th St?
Jamaica Center is at Parsons Boulevard, with an exit just west at about what was the Union Hall Street LIRR station. The line continues east to 160th where it turns sharply south, and comes to rest at South-Road in a dead end tunnel.
The formal name of the station is Jamaica Center-Parsons/Archer - it is decorated in a dreadful shade of dark brown tile with mustard-yellow accents, making it appear much darker than it actually is. There are two levels with island platforms withal; the upper level serves the "E" train and the lower level serves the "J" and "Z" trains. There is no interconnection between the two. Only the upper level track continues south and east. The lower level ends at bumpers.
Sutphin Boulevard station is similar in layout to Jamaica Center except it has pearl grey walls with acoustic soundproofing baffles set in the tile and tiny holes to absorb sound, like an acoustic ceiling.
There is an island platform on each level. There are checkerboard accent panels in Carmine Red, Scarlet Lake, Cherry Red, Vermilion and Red-Violet on each level. The mezzanine is decorated in two shades of red with grey and chrome accents. The platforms taper at the west end of the station. Again, "E" service is upstairs and "J"/"Z" service is downstairs. The upper-level ceiling is vaulted and lined with soundproofing materials (which pick up amazing amounts of track dust).
An exit leads almost directly into the LIRR terminal (you have to walk around a corner and you're there).
Wayne
I think I must have seen an E train coming in from the left, above us, as we were starting the descent into the subway.
Actually, the "E" train is already in Subway at that point.
The "E" service branches off the Queens Boulevard IND subway just south of the Van Wyck Boulevard station and follows a long-unused stub track south along the Van Wyck Expressway. Just above Jamaica Avenue, this stub ends and the new (1989) subway begins. There is a station for the "E" there - Jamaica-Van Wyck. It is a two-track underground station with an island platform. The ceiling is high and vaulted and is lined with grey metal sheathing. The wall tile is Cadmium Orange with Charcoal Grey accents. There are no pillars or other obstructions. High up along the east wall of the station are windows which allow daylight to shine into the station - these windows look east out onto the Van Wyck Expressway, which is below street level at that point. The exits are at Jamaica Avenue and also at 89th Avenue, directly in front of Jamaica Hospital.
South of the station, the line turns eastward and continues underground to Sutphin Boulevard.
I wonder if you didn't see an LIRR train passing, since the "J" line parallels the LIRR Main Line briefly before it goes underground.
Wayne
I will have to watch that portion of the tape again to see if I can make out any more details.
It was 1988. That's really all I have to say.
Was there a plan (like mine) to extend the upper level tracks eastward? MY plan was a 3 track line to Belmont Raceway.
[An exit (from the Sutphin Boulevard station) leads almost directly into the LIRR terminal (you have to walk around a corner and you're
there).]
Every time the LIRR has a big problem out of Penn Station during evening rush hour, and commuters take the E train to get to the LIRR at Jamaica Station, many of them get off at Jamaica-Van Wyck and wonder why they're looking at Jamaica Hospital rather than Jamaica Station :-)
Shopping in Jamaica is still great! I live near Woodhaven Blvd., and I take the J train to Jamaica to shop very often, just as Karl once did.
You can get just about anything (other than groceries) very affordably on Jamaica Avenue between Parsons Blvd. and 168th Street. (And this doesn't even include a great store called C.H. Martin located between Sutphin and Parsons.)
So, Jamaica is tremendous, just like your mother told you. Don't let anyone tell you different.
The thing to be worried about is the J train. Ever since I first read the station-by-station description here on nycsubway.org, I have not been able to stop thinking about that section of track from 1893. Yikes!
Ferdinand Cesarano
What did you think of the R40M and R42 1969-vintage trains, with their post-GOH outfits? That is assuming Salaam took at least a passing photo of the trains themselves.
Neat what they did to Van Siclen and Alabama, totally replacing their platforms and canopies. Cresc., Norwood and Van Siclen have new rooftops but their ironmongery is the same as it ever was - circa 1885.
BTW the platform lights at the WEST end of Eastern Parkway are due to be replaced with the same ones they erected at Myrtle - copies of the 1917 originals, but with sodium lamps.
Wayne
I tell you what if and as long as i can get my vidieo camera to the railfan window to shoot out of it
and or you can put me inside the transverse cab so i can do the same THEN I AM HAPPY.........
.................... brace yourself for this !!!...................................................... ............................................................................................
................................................................................................ ( AS A PIG IN MUD !!! ) !@$%%^^!@$%%@$%***.............................
You must have had a BALL on the "L" with Slants to shoot your video from. Nothing beats a Slant on the "L" except a Slant on the "Q".
Simon, Subway-Buff and I had a wonderful Slant on the "L" back on March 13, which we rode from Broadway-Junction to Lorimer. A fine rehabilitation has been done there.
I hope you got some nice wheel noise for your "L" Train soundtrack.
Did you shoot any of the nice mosaics?
Wayne
Wayne,
I've seen several of Salaam's videos, and I am not familiar with any of the models that are being used today. He rode Slant R-40's on the L, at least I think that's what they were. If I still lived in the city, I think they would be my favorite model too. Their appearance is truly unique.
I was surprised at the changes to the appearance of the stations, the one station that seemed pretty much the same was Chambers Street. It was as I remembered it, except a little more deteriorated.
Just a quick run-down on what's being used in Eastern Division (the "J", "L", "M" and "Z" lines) today - just three models are in use there.
R40 (Slant) 1968 - only on the "L".
R40M (Straight) 1969 - on all four lines
R42 - 1969 - on all four lines.
Chambers Street station is indeed in dreadful shape. The flourescent light you see there today wasn't there in your day - you probably saw the "helmet" type lights with the glass globes that hung down on rods from above. And the plain wall went up in 1962, covering the west side platform. You'll also probably find Bowery about the same as it ever was. What did you think of the "retro" look they gave Fulton Street and Broad Street - they duplicated the Grecian Design right down to the tiniest 1/2" tile.
Wayne
Wayne
I worked for awhile at 30 Broad St right upstairs. From what I could tell from Salaam's video, Broad St station looked a lot better than what I could remember from the old days.
I noticed that wall that all but obliterated the old west platform at Chambers St. You and I had talked about that some months ago. You said that was caused by the IRT Brooklyn Bridge platform extension. Three of the five platforms at Chambers St were shut off even in my day. They were just there but never used.
Geez. I thought this post wasgonna be about Chinese food when I saw MSG......
Rim shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yesterday (Monday)AM they had a broken rail today CBS hasd them running express from WIllets POint to Queensboro Plaza due to "emergency trackwork"
Question: How common is a broken rail. I am not saying they were not doing their job but dont we have track walkers checking the tracks and how was it missed.
Track Department inspects each piece of track every so often (I think every 20 days, maybe it's less, I don't remember). Quite often, extreme temperature can affect the rails integrity.
One other thing to keep in mind is that the Sperry car checks every inch of track twice a year. The computer sensors detect defects in the rail, not visible to the naked eye. When a Sperry defect is detected, the location is marked and Track Department has three days to replace it. Sometimes if the Sperry car checks for instance the Flushing Line, they run the car up and down and defects are noted. If there are a lot, it can run havoc with the service. A lot of times if a defect is found it is severe enough that an Emergency General Order is written to divert service.
This happened recently on the Manahttan Bridge as well as on the "J" Line out at Alabama Avenue.
Unfortunately trackworkers cannot see inside of the rail. Most rail failures begin where they are not visible and could only be detected through sophisticated technology. Broken rails don't happen too often but they do happen enough that it's by no means rare. About two weeks ago service on the Ronkonkoma branch of the LIRR was disrupted by such an event. Fortunately, most times the broken rail is detected by observant train operators or conductors before any real problem occurs.
What is happening with the Lower tunnel at 63rd st. Will it be used for the lirr grand central station connection
That's the plan.
David
Opinion question here. When is MetroRail's birthday? March 27, when it had free rides all day, or March 29, the first day of revenue service.
Also, SmarTrip will now be accepted at ALL faregares and Naylor Road Station (on the green line) won the award for use of concrete in transit.
Naylor Road
Yes, that's quite an elevated station they have there. Dramatic flyover and ramp-up with a breathtaking curve.
Wayne
Supposedly, $23 million has been earmarked for building a monorail system that would transport Gateway visitors from the Floyd Bennett Field (or Brooklyn side) to the Fort Tilden/Breezy Point (or Queens side) area of Gateway National Park.
This would mean a system that would go over the Jamaica Bay Inlet. I'm not sure how this would accommodate boat traffic (maybe the monorail will run along side the Marine Park Bridge??)
If I hear more, I'll post it here.
Doug aka BMTman
walt disney tried to do that running a monorail thru the middle of los angeles freeways all the way
to the original disneyland !!
just saw this on channel seven news ABC LOS ANGELES
STREETS may have as bad damage POTHOLES almost as bad as DETROIT and other eastern state cities !!??
and even worse damage caused mostly by HEAVY BUSES and larger weight vehicles etc..........
NOW if we still had not RIPPED OUT our pacific electric railway system....
A whole LOT of this problem would not even exhist in the first place !!
POTHOLES and street damage now coming as close as DETROIT ??? MAN !!!!! that aint good !!
we should have kept the rail system we once had !!! ( oh well )..................
Too bad the Pacific Electric was built as an interurban not a rappid.
A lot of it ran down the middle of the street. Not good for car traffic or trains. If it could have been improved and relocated to exclusive ROW it could have worked and lived but there was no political will to do what needed to be done.
We all miss the big red cars, and what they could have become.
Joe
WELL !!!! its not like they didnt have a chance to do it !! ANYWAY the blue line does the same thing !!!
and its brand new !! well almost 10 years old ( correction ) thank you for your post....... joe !!!!
I'm still puzzled about what happened - or, more precisely, what didn't happen - on the LIRR today. It all started when I got off the shuttle from Medford at Ronkonkoma this morning. As I do from time to time, I decided to take the 6:57 to Flatbush Avenue rather than wait for the 7:05 to Penn. As we approached Jamaica, it dawned on me that the conductor hadn't come by to check tickets. In my two and a half years of commuting on the LIRR, it's been very rare for conductors not to do ticket checks on east-of-Jamaica trip segments. On the few times it has happened, the trains have been packed with people standing in the aisles due to cancellations or other problems. That wasn't the case today. Anyway, the conductor did a ticket check on the Jamiaca to Flatbush segment, and I bascially forgot about the lack of an earlier check.
After getting out of work, I took the 5:22 from Penn to Ronkonkoma. It bypasses Jamaica and makes its first stop in Wyandanch. Guess what? That's right, there was no ticket check. One aberration I could understand, but two? That seems to be quite a coincidence. I should point out that on neither train were there any "go to channel four" announcements that might have signified problems on the trains that would have occupied the conductors' attention. Further confusing matters is that there were normal ticket checks on both Ronkonkoma-Medford shuttles.
What I'm wondering is if LIRR conductors, or at least some of them, are engaging in some sort of unannounced job action. One possibility is that they're angry about having had to deal with unruly drunks on St. Patrick's Day. I'll have to see what happens tomorrow.
Several times on off-peak, half empty inbound trips from Mineola to Jamaica, the conductors would fail to collect my ticket. It usually occurrs if one conductor is missing and the rest have to work more cars than normal.
Metro North are you listening?
stop driving your car around here in CALIFORNIA as I do.................. AND STOP DRIVING & .........
move to new york city were you are FORCED to WALK to the SUBWAY and or BUS...
and then LOSE ALL THE WEIGHT !! ( I could loose 50 pounds and be very happy ) !!!!
I lose weight by INTENTIONALLY waiting for
a REDBIRD just so I can surround myself in
one (and tho it will set me down 30 blocks
away from where I would have gotten off
from the LOCAL) I walk back the 30 blocks
with the biggest smile in town.. why??
cuz' i rode a redbird & it helps my health.
Why don't you follow your advice? Unless your advice involves being a hypocrite.
Be careful Pigs, you are having a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
A Forgotten Fan sent me this query about travel from Forest Hills to Manhattan circa 1936:
Do you know or know where I could find out which is the most probable way a person would have traveled from Austin Street in Forest Hills Gardens, Queens to St. Thomas's Church on Fifth Avenue and 53rd Street. I know the 71st St/ Continental Ave. Station did not open to the public until the 1939 World's Fair. What did people do to get to Manhattan before that particular subway opened? Did they use other subways, trolleys, buses, or a combination?
So, what was the best method of getting from Austin Street to midtown without a car in the pre-IND days? Anyone know?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Tonight Saturday March 25,2000 at 8:47pm,the last "rapid
transit" train in Chicago with a conductor left the
Cermak-Chinatown northbound
station on the Red line.NOBODY from the press was there,and
only 2 railfans myself included were there to ride that
last train. Last night at CERA nothing about was mentioned
at all.
What happened to the conductor after the last run? In New York, I would figure the NYCTA would dismiss him/her or maybe shoot them in the foot and force them to retire. Are your personel who are qualified as conductors also engineers and tower qualified too? They wanted to start a train worker type function but have'nt busted our union as yet. Let us know with a follow-up what happened to the last conductor.
Nobody got laid off, it was done through attrition. The conductor position in Chicago unlike New York was an entry level position and must qualify as a motorman(operator), and either switchman, or towerman. Watch out Boston,Toronto, and New York, OPTO is soon coming to your town, thanks to the weak so-called union leadership of atu308.
Here's an example of a weak union working out for the customer's best interest.
Without a conductor, tourists will wait at the front of the train and attack the motorman with annoying questions instead of the conductor.
Finally, someone with common sense.
thats why chicago needs to re install conductors as they once had !!!
WHAT?
Today's (Sunday) L.I. Newsday has an aritcle about hardcore railfan Darius McCollum.
Here is the
correct link to the McCollum story. Sorry, folks...
I was on a L train yesterday afternoon around 2:30. We left the Carnasie station and skiped Livonia Ave. There were no announcements, we just didn't stop. Motorman blew the horn LIRR style (long,long,short,long) and we bypassed the station. I don't remember seeing anyone on the platform. Maybe we were running late.
A GO was in effect. See MTA's web site.
NEW POST ( on topic ) ........... to me taxes are too high especially for those who already are charged too
much every time we put gas in our 20 year old car and or try to ride he transit system shelling out
up to two dollars per ride ......... and those toll roads !! so where does all that tax money go anyway ??
not to the homeless poor and needy !!! especially the minimum eage earners trying to get off public
aid food stamps only to be taxed so high they can barely afford to ride public transit !!! and live in a house !!
so where did all the money go as we were lied to about the senseless census i didnt answer and dont beleive in !
i guess they wasted it all on the WEAPONS INDUSTRIES and right wing WAR DEPARTMENT PORK !!
right ??????????? sure didnt go to rail and mass transit !!!!!
Um...Most of our taxes go towards emtitlements (like Medicare and Social Security) and servicing the debt. Another 20% or so goes towards the military. The military used to get over 1/2 the government spending so leave them alone. Most money for transportation comes from transportation related taxes, namely the gas tax and road tolls. Think of a wall seperating money derived from incometaxes etc. and transportation taxes. Cutting welfare or the military won't result in an increase in transportation spending. You need to re-distribute the gas tax fairly between road and transit. That's the problem so direct your use of the caps lock towards that. Also the sliding tax scale taxes the poor who use tranist little if anything. If you think about it, the suburbanites in their SUV's are helping to subsuzide transit with their hi gas consumption.
poor folks transit a lot and pay the highest !! and the weapons industry and political right wing PORK
is a drain on all taxpayers especially the working poor !!!!!!
My a newer, more fuel-efficient car instead of that gas-guzzling, super-polluting 80's heap. Then it won't cost you as much to fill the tank. ESPECIALLY in environmentally concious California. Several of your neighbors probably believe you and your heap are the sole reason for their gas costs being so high.
Tolls on toll roads go to the upkeeep of said roads, for the most part. They also go to pay the intrest on the bonds that were sold to pay for the road up-front.
Minimum-wage is not really designed for someone to support their family with. It's generaly for people entering the workforce for the first time. Welfare reciients (in NY, at least) are steered towards some higher-paying jobs. There was a scandal recently about a company that was training welfare recipients to be telephone psychics! Pay was $12-$15/hr, but the administration was embarassed by the local media into stopping this, despite the fact that the employer was "extremely happy" with the workers the city provided them.
As for transit, the more you pay for a ride, the lower its subsidy, generally speaking. Of course, as costs rise, fares rise too, as do wages, as the people paying those costs start screaming for more money; which is why they're always pushing for a minimum wage increase (to $6.75 in 2001) Business likes to say that raising the minimum wage means they have to increase their prices, or hire fewer workers. The former has happened, but not the latter. As more people make more money, they increase the amount they spend accordingly. Prices rise so that employeres can meet the increased costs of doing business, and eventually, wages follow. It's a catch-22. Raise the prices because costs go up, your money doesn't go as far. So they raise wages, which increases costs, which raises prices. So they raise wages....I think you see my point.
The taxes you pay go to many functions other than transit. You pay #5 or so for Social Security (your employer matches this) Another 1.5% for Medicare/Medicaid (again, your employer matches this) Federal witholding (which increases as a decimal percentage by how much you earn, generally, they withhold about 9-12%) State and locality taxes are also withheld, depending on if your state and local goverments collect, and at what rate. In NY, unless you specify otherwise, state and city witholding do not affect you unless you have a gross of $100/wk or more. You must still pay local taxes.
-Hank
california has the highest car tax ( tag fees ) only beat by NEW JERSEY ... and the highest smog regulations
and emissoons $$$$$ HIGH DOLLARS the newer your piece if junk ( your automobile) is etc.............
highest price for gasolin because of smog scam approved gas etc........ MBTE poison gasoline etc......
longest distance between travel points etc...... our roads and bus system is worse than ever !!!!!
new cars the tags fees can only be afforded by the well to do and not minimum wage families !!!!!!
minimum wage is the standard wage most CALIFORNIA FAMILIES are forced to survive with thats a fact !!
and the slum landlords scam out the rest !! highest food costs etc....... highest transit fees etc ..................
most welfare cut-offs only make minimum wage here and sink deeper into homelessness and poverty & hunger !!
to me the WEAPONS INDUSTRIES and WAR DEPARTMENT and that type of PORK is where the forced
taxes go NOT TO RAIL OR BUS OR MASS PUBLIC TRANSIT !!
you made my point even better !!!!!!
When will you be able to post a single thought in a single sentence that's at least understandable the first time people read it?
Smog is NOT a scam. Early in the morning, find a nice, tall building where it's legal to go to the top. Then, look in the direction of the nearest highway. You'll see a nice, thick brown smudge across the the sky. That's smog. It's ozone, particulates, CO2, Nitrous compounds, and a load a chemicals with names even Pigs couldn't pronounce. CA has a smog tax. The more polluting your vehicle, the more you pay. This applies to new as well as used cars. CA even has a phone number to call where you can report car owners whose vehicles are 'gross polluters'. New cars, for the first 4 years of their lives, pay $4/yr for the smog tax. All other vehicles, depending on county registered, are required to have either an annual or bi-annual smog certification. Only cars built before 1973 are fully exempt from the smog laws.
MTBE has been determined to contaminate ground water near gas stations with leaky and poorly maintained tanks. It has now been banned by the EPA.
The rest of your incoherant rant is nonsense. If you dislike the country so much, participate in its processes, or move to some socialist country.
-Hank
In New York City, less of your taxes go to education, transportation, parks, recreation and culture than elsewhere in the country, even though your state and local taxes are the second highest in the U.S. behind Alaska. To the extent that New Yorkers pay slightly higher taxes to cover the cost of extensive transit system, this is more than offset by the savings of owning fewer cars.
California's taxes ain't high by New York standards.
In New York, a clarification is in order:
1. How much of your taxes, BY LAW, must go to mass transit? From sales tax, 0.25%, out of the 8.25% that you pay on so many things. From income taxes, there's no legislated amount.
2. How much of the legislated amount ACTUALLY goes to mass transit? Depends on which way the political winds are blowing. When city voters supported Mario Cuomo in 1994, George Pataki retaliated by raiding the mass transit sales tax account (only the NYC Transit portion) and giving it away for upstate barn door restorations. Rudy, of course, betrayed his city by endorsing that move. In 1998, Pataki "offered" the MetroCard fare incentives by graciously "donating" the sales tax revenues that he's required, by law, to turn over anyway.
Go to misc.transport.urban-transit and you'll find people complaining that too much of our money goes to mass transit. They claim that highways are paid for in full by their users, something that they claim isn't true for mass transit. One of those, Mr. Cote, knows nothing about New York and cares only about Portland, OR. The other, Mr. Gibson, complains that New York is outdated. Go there and find out yourself.
yea ! it does depend how the money is used and or misused LIKE THE LOS ANGELES RED LINE SUBWAY
( the subway to nowhere ) !!!!!!
[ea ! it does depend how the money is used and or misused LIKE THE LOS ANGELES RED LINE SUBWAY
( the subway to nowhere ) !!!!!!]
That's part of the problem. Because transit favors only certain regions, pork barrel politicians use their share of transit funding to build boondoggles. The same thing can happen in reverse, when areas dependent on mass transit go for their share of highway funds: Westway is a prime example.
People should pay for what they use, both road and transit. It's amazing how reluctant companies are to build things that people won't pay for, and eager to build things that they will.
what i was saying is that transit systems have to go where people go not a subway to nowhere !! eh!!!!
and when the los angeles red line put peiole out of thier businesses and home (s) !!!!!!!!!!!!! eh !
[Go to misc.transport.urban-transit and you'll find people complaining that too much of our money goes to mass transit. They claim that highways are paid for in full by their users, something that they claim isn't true for mass transit. One of those, Mr. Cote, knows nothing about New York and cares only about Portland, OR. The other, Mr. Gibson, complains that New York is outdated. Go there and find out yourself.]
LOL, I sent Robert this little snip from an article Hank Eistenstein posted:
"Of the total spent by federal, state, and local agencies on highways, bridges and roads in New York State, motorists pay for approximately 65% through gas taxes, (city, state, and federal) registration fees, parking fees, tolls, etc. The other 35% [$7.5 billion] is derived from revenue sources such as income taxes borne by all citizens regardless of how much they use roads."
That $7.5 billion sure do sound like a subsidy to me. Haven't heard back from him yet . . .
I swear, I remember reading that, but I don't remeber posting that. I intended to, it came from 'Mobilizing the Region'
-Hank
[I swear, I remember reading that, but I don't remeber posting that. I intended to, it came from 'Mobilizing the Region'
-Hank]
LOL, I checked and you posted it on Mar 21 in the "When subways ran for a profit" thread. I did some simple arithmetic to get the value of the general revenue highway spending, and I've quoted it many times since--it's a great counter to the drivers-pay-for-their-own-roads argument.
i think the problems on #6 line call for a drastic redesign of subway cars and method of operation---
i propose the removal of all seats in the cars--- a car length 55 foot door that rolls down from the top as the only means of exiting and entering --- a way of distributing customers on the station platforms so that all cars are evenly loaded--- hydraulically powered pushing devices to help load customers into trains, similar to what is employed on sanitation trucks-- trains of 10 cars to be connected with drawbars between trains which will guarantee a safe separation between trains, and eliminate the need for transit workers and signal systems--- of course all stations will have to be repositioned to be a uniform distance apart--- the selection of a benevolent despot who will ensure that the trains run on time--- the selection of a customer complaint review board whose purpose will be to ruthlessly eliminate any troublemakers----
Paul,
It would never work. It might make too much sense and you know how the MTA reacts to something that makes sense.
By the way - are you proposing the position of benevolent despot for yourself?
THE SCOOPS ARE COMING!!!
THE SCOOPS ARE COMING!!!
Wayne :o>
The primary difficulty on heavy local lines like the 6 is station
dwell time. Why not use open cars or flat cars and instead
of stopping in the station, just slow to 1 or 2 MPH and let
the passengers^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcustomers jump on and off?
The platforms can be moving walkways moving at the same speed as the train, the people go onto the walkway and then slide off, like an amusement park ride.
Or how about this -- build a loop track at Pelham Bay like the one at City Hall, and just have one continuous converyor belt of flatbed subway cars going around and around in a big circle like a moving sidewalk at about five miles per hour. Of course, you'd have to make sure people on the elevated section jumped off where the platforms are, or Westchester Ave. could get a little messy...
i am happy to see that my suggestions to improve service on the #6 line is being taken seriously, especially by some members of the engineering community...
i think j. lee's concerns about customers falling onto westchester ave can easily solved by installing wire mesh catch basins for a distance of 50 feet on either side of the platforms, which will serve as a safety net for customers who miss their station stop...
i like the idea of flatcars being used to help facilitate smooth passenger flow--- this would mostly be needed in rush hours--- perhaps during normal periods, the car shell could be put back on the car--- i have a vague memory of something like this being done on a coney island amusement ride many years ago--- there was a train made up of cars, which were initially open at the top, but by some means became fully enclosed... i forget what happened after that, since i never went on amusement park rides after a traumatic experience on a fun house ride....
another possibility to increase am rush hour service would be to have #6 locals go downtown both on the regular downtown local track as well as wrong railing on the uptown local track--- of course this presents some problems as to how to handle all these
trains in the lower part of the manhattan--- perhaps we could close off all commercial activity in the city below 14th street, and use the tracks below 14th street as lay-up tracks until the pm rush hour, when we would just reverse the whole procedure--- of course we would have to suspend all service between rush hours, but i think that is a reasonable trade off for improved rush hour service...
Are you sure you are not Rudy Giuliani in disguise?
no i am not rudy in disguise
i'm just kidding most of the time
he's just serious most of the time, although i think he personally has a good sense of humor
It would be so cool if the Mayor Came to Subtalk. You know he has a thing about accerting his opinions in public forums. Although, unlike his radio show he couldn't cut people off. I wonder what he would post about? I wonder if he has even been here or seen nycsubway.org? I've always wondered if celebrities visit chat rooms and message boards and how would we ever know.
hold your breath !!!!
not going to happen hold your breath !!!!
Man, my cover is broken!
The Mayor isn't that interested in transportation. He might have visted cop-talk
i would put all of the last redbirds on the #6 & the # 7 !!!!
I would take the Redbirds of the 7 as soon as possible and """"S"""" SCRAP the R-33S (s is for SCRAP!!!!).
There's one way to find out: bring up City Hall Loop. When will passengers; oops, customers be allowed to sneak a peak at that magnificent station again?
just pretend your a lost tourist during rush hour and ride a #6 around through the station I see people on the train all the time.
Does anybody oot there know if they are going to publish a new subways guide this year? The bus dept. puts one out every year I am courious why subways doesn't follow suit.
Anyone have a updated track map showing the new New Queens Blvd Connection between the 21 st station in Queensbridge and the Queens Blvd line. The track aligments are a little different.
What is that fifth track doing there just east of Queens Plaza?
Actually the fifth track was always there. It used to end at 36 St., now it ends where the new line comes up and D4 (Queens bound express track) uses its old right of way. It was and will be used to get bad order trains off the main line or turn trains when the railroad has service disruptions. Can't use it yet, as the whole area has to be resignaled.
I remember trains using the D5 track when the D3 or D4 track was OOS FSR.
Try Peter Dougherty's Tracks of the NYC Subway. The updated map is on p.48.
Hi there. I'm looking for dimensional schematics/diagrams of NYC subway cars, as I'd a need to model them three-dimensionally. I've been unable to acquire 'The Evolution of New York City Subways: An Illustrated History of New York City's Transit Cars, 1867-1997
by Gene Sansone (1998)' - the museum store says they are out of print. Does anyone know how to get the NYCT internal publication 'Revenue and Non-Revenue Car Drawings', or any other publication/web site that may have such drawings?
Alternately a good plastic or metal model might be ok.. but they have also been hard to find.
Thanks
ken
You might inquire at the Transit Museum. I don't know if they still have any on display, but in storage they have a bunch of models by George Rahilly (sp?). Perhaps they can find out how George got the specs for his models.
Well, I have some electrical schematics someone gave me for some subway car stuff. I don't remember what. But Icould dig them up.
Does any body know if that MTA Traning Center called P.S. 248 used to be a Public School in the past where is that located.
The P.S. in P.S. 248 stands for Public School. It was rendered surplus by the Board of Education during the 1970s fiscal crisis and turned over to NYC Transit. The community asks for it to be turned back over to the Board of Education from time to time due to overcrowding at the remaining schools in the neighborhood.
The school is located at W. 12th Street & Avenue U in Brooklyn.
David
where can i get the dimensions for a subway train? i need to do a scale model for my project.
There are plans in Grellers NYC Subway Car book.
There are also R-17/21/22/29 models available from Images Replicas.
http://www.imagesreplicas.com
The following is an article apearing in the March 7th edition of the Jersey Journal. I've been meaning to post this for quite a while now and I do not think anyone has posted this yet. If someone has, oh well, it was fun practicing my typing skills :)
--------
LIGHT RAIL
FULL SPEED AHEAD
NJ Transit announces $1.50 fare
for 90-minute riding time
by Alberto Canal
Journal staff writer
Want to take a ride on the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail when it begins service next month? That will be $1.50, please.
NJ Transit officials yesterday announced the fare, good for 90 minutes, which will allow riders to bounce from any of the system's 12 stations from Bayonne to Jersey City within the allotted time.
The cost for a monthly pass will be $53 and a 10-trip ticket will go for $13. Riders will save an estimated 30 percent off one-way fares, based on a minimum of 25 round trips each month, and can use their passes to ride free on local NJ Transit buses and buses operated by participating companies.
Seniors over 65 can take advantage of half-price fares, and those 62 to 64 can enjoy half-off during off-peak hours. Students will get $1.75 reduced from the 10-ticket bundle.
"Today's announcement is the latest step in our effort to gear up for passenger service," says NJ Transit Executuive Director Jeffery Warsh.
Although trains have been zipping through the streets of southern Hudson County, passenger service won't begin until sometime in April. NJ Transit officials have not yet announced a date, but John Johnson, president of 21st Century Rail Corporation, which has designed and built and will maintain and operate the system, has said mid-April.
Once validated, each individual ticket will be good for 90 minutes, but that system might change as the line extends further into Hudon and Bergen Counties.
Ticket-vending machines similar to those at about a dozen other NJ Transit stations throughout the state are already in place at the 12 stations. But be prepared to get Susan B. Anthony, one-dollar coins and not dollar bills back as change.
During the first days of operation, there will be what NJ Transit calls "ambassadors" assisting riders with the vending machines, which will sell all three fare packages.
Officials are conducting a 30-day testing period of the system under regular schedules from 34th Street in Bayonne to Exchange Place in Jersey City. Just last Wednesday, a Hudson-Bergen Light Rail train pulled out of the Danforth Avenue Station in Jersey City and headed toward Bayonne carrying a group of Jersey Journal editors.
A trolle-like bell rang out and a pedestrian 20 or so feet below the rail bridge quickly looked up as the train sped away, leaving a nest of development in Downtown Jersey City behind and zipping through a working class neighborhood in the city's Greenville section.
By the end of this year, NJ Transit officials expect the smooth-riding train to run through Newport Centre Mall, and into Hoboken Terminal by 2002. The system is designed to span more than 20 miles between Bayonne and Ridgefield.
"When they first started the light rail in Washington in the 1970s, they didn't expect too much traffic on it. And what happened was the light rail created a new rush hour during lunch time," said Alfred E. Fazio, vice president of operations for 21st Century Rail Corp. "I expect the same thing will happen here."
At 90 feet long and 9 feet wide, the white train bearing the NJ Transit colors along its side turned some heads during the hour-long ride. It's been decades since trolley cars have zipped through Hudson's streets, and every so often a pedestrian or driver followed ot as it passed Jersey City intersections.
"It's like a hybrid of a street car/commuter rail vehicle," Warsh said. It still smells like a new car, commented one editor as he sat on on of the fabric-covered seats. Each car is low to the ground, making it accessible for the disabled, and has two spots for handicapped seating. The vehicles seat 68 and have space to accommodate 122 standing passengers.
There are four intercoms for passengers to reach authorities in the command center at Caven Point and, unlike commuter trains, passengers can open as few of the four double doors as need be open, enabling protection from the elements.
Offering a quieter and more stable ride than a bus or PATH train, the light rail will have approximately 25,000 riders by the end of 2000, according to NJ Transit estimates.
There's a clean, almost muted hum that grows louder as the train picks up speed. Most of the stations are ready to go, with only minor work still being done.
Colored-cement tiles, fixtures, lights and other finishing touches still need to be installed at Exchange Place and the West Side Avenue stations, for example. Additions like a pedestrian bridge to Grand Avenue from the Jersey Avenue station across from St. Peter's Preparatory High School in Jersey City are still being discussed.
The four park-and-ride stations at Liberty State Park, West Side Avenue, both in Jersey City, and 45th Street and 34th streets , in Bayonne, which together will offer 2,939 parking spaces, will be ready for commuters for the grand opening at a $2-a-day rate.
There will be a special package for park-and-ride customers that will combine parking and light rail trip tickets at the pay stations for $93 for the monthly package and $5 for the daily parking and light rail ticket.
Commuters have yet to christen the modern stations, which feature ornate benches, glass-brick-shielded seating areas and varying art work from New Jersey artists, but vandals have already marked the Jersey Avenue and 45th Street stations.
But the light rail station at Martin Luther King Drive is the crown jewel of a multimillion-dollar redevelopment of the neighborhood. The area's first supermarket in years, CitiMarkets, recently opened its doors for the first time.
"Despite the fact that the system has not carried a single passenger, Hudson Bergen Light Rail construction has already contributed to an economic boom and created thousands of new jobs along the Hudson River waterfront," said James Weinstein, New Jersey's transportation commissioner.
-----
-- David
Responding to the will of the people pointing out that pictures and Doug's story on the Franklin Shuttle would be nicer with a map to look at, I posted a 1924 route map (ah! history) on the first Franklin article page, which also contains a link (in the caption) to a current track map.
I remember a few years ago that VIA RAIL the Canadian equivalent of AMTRAK had a night train that ran from Montreal to Halifax and went through the State of Maine. Passengers could travel to areas in the Moosehead Lake region. The train would make stops at Jackman, Greenville Junction and Brownville in the USA. Lately when accessing VIA RAIL's website, I do not see this train listed. The only Montreal to Halifax train they have listed in the "Ocean" which does not go through Maine. Does anyone know the name of the train that used to traverse Maine and when VIA RAIL discontinued it ?
From the Washington Post:
"...Metro, the transit system coated in concrete and uniformity, has gone psychedelic at Dupont Circle, thanks to a temporary gift from Helsinki, Finland.
"To mark a visit to Washington by Helsinki Mayor Eva-Riitta Siitonen, the Finnish city commissioned artist Annikki Luukela to design and install 45 moving lamps in the Metro station. The display, officially unveiled in mid-March, will last for about eight weeks and then may travel to Los Angeles.
"The lamps, which can project 2,000 colors, are intended to mimic the aurora borealis, or northern lights, a natural phenomenon of moving arcs and ribbons of colored light celebrated in Finland. ..."
The full article can be read at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-03/15/231l-031500-idx.html
Read quickly, as articles are posted free for 14 days, then go into a paid archive. This was posted on 03/15/00.
I am going there tomorrow and will let you know how it is.
There was an article on it yesterday on the CBS program Sunday Morning. I thought it looked cool.
Observiation made while driving the Merritt Parkway and while passing through WALK interlocking on Amtrak have led me to the conclusion that the Danburry Branch was electrified. From the Merritt I noticed out of service catenary polls. At WALK I saw that the elelctrifacation still proceeded down Danburry branch for some distance. Can someone please provide me with the details about this. When were the wires torn down and why? Are there any plans to restore electrified service?
[Observiation made while driving the Merritt Parkway and while passing through WALK interlocking on Amtrak have led me to the conclusion that the Danburry Branch was electrified. From the Merritt I noticed out of service catenary polls. At WALK I saw that the elelctrifacation still proceeded down Danburry branch for some distance. Can someone please provide me with the details about this. When were the wires torn down and why? Are there any plans to restore electrified service?]
Electrification ended AFAIK sometime in the early 1960's.
If Metro North has any plans to restore it, no one's ever heard of them.
Electrification of the Danbury branch began in October 1924 and was completed in June 1925. The wire was de-energized early in 1961 and the wire removed in 1965. There was talk of restoring electrification in 1980 but this went by the wayside as MNCR took over from Conrail.
It's hard to believe a line was actually de-electrified. What a waste! Has this happened anywhere else?
Oh, goodness yes!! For starters the 400 miles of Miwallkee Road was torn down as was the NYC line into Cleveland Union Terminal, the 600VDC line in the Detriot river tunnel and the electrified Niagra Junction. The 11,000 VAC 25 Hz operation was torn out as was the Great Northern electrified through the Cascade Tunnel. A little closer to home, the PRR had almost 700 route miles of electrifacation, but in ~1980, after Amtrak raised trackage rights, the scrapped the whole thing. This incloded the Port Road and Enola yard, Aglin and Susquhanna branch, Columbia branch, Trenton Cutt Off, Philly Hi-Line and Greenwhich yard, the freight by-pass in Wilmington and Edgemoor yard, Bay View yard in Baltimore, Anacostia yard in DC and the connection to the RFP Patomic yard, the Delair bridge and the route into Pavonia yard Camden, the Newark Bay bridge and Greenville yard and finally Meddows yard. About 6 years ago they tore out the wires on the Jamesburg branch from MIDWAY on the NEC to South Amboy. I'm guessing they lost about 1/2 of the total electrified system. Recenrly they have started to cut down the catenary poles for scrap so go out there and get'em into photographs.
Catenary poles still exist on the PRR West Shore (of the Susquehanna River) lines leading to Enola yard and on the Cumberland Valley RR (later PRR) Bridge across the river. There has been talk in the Harrisburg media of using the bridge for a planned light rail service called "Corrider One" by Capital Area Transit which will extend from Carlisle, PA thru the capital city to Lancaster, using diesel-powered light rail vehicles, leaving the poles useless still. (Extreme early planning stages, though.)
Also, catenary substantially removed from Harrisburg's PRR Station yard -- many no-longer-electrified tracks there -- catenary only serves 3 or 4 tracks.
I think the light rail project has been junked for a commuter rail line that will run from Carisland to Middletown.
Great! This will serve the same purpose, and probably even better. As a matter of fact, when the new Harrisburg Intl. Airport Rail Station is built, these commuter trains could provide service for West Shore residents to the Airport, as well as downtown, and will probably help further revitalize an already up-and-coming city. Hooray!
BTW, where did you hear this? I'd like to keep up too.
KP
I heard it on Eastern Rail News, the online magizine.
www.eastrailnews.com
They even had a route map. I'd find it for you now, but they seem to have done away with the search archive function.
Many thanks, fellow PRR fan.
Cheers!
ERN is based in Leymoine PA, (LEMO in PRR talk) so I think they know what's up in the Harrisburg or STATE area.
Back in the 60's McGuiness wanted to dewire all the way down to Stamford, I believe. This right after the New Haven purchased the EP-5s and EF-4s and Washboards (argueably the most advanced equipment in the US at the time).
There's 10 trains a weekday in each direction, I'd assume that there'd have to a be a few more than that to justify re wireing the branch. I believe they are gooing to resignal it - it'll be interesting to see if the new signal system is compatible with AC traction gear.
Also realize that MN has had quite a shortage of MUs for quite some time now, so rewiring would only add to that problem.
Given all that, and CT's (less than) enthusiastic support of commuter rail, I don't see it happening any time soon, though I bet if it were done, they'd be able to use the currently standing poles and save a few $$$
I believe the big project is a rewiring from the NY state line to Stamford, with constant tension gear, which will get rid of speed restrictions in extreme weather, not to mention reduce the # of delays due to flying pantographs! And it might lead to a general speed increase.
I believe MN also redoes the wires when they redo interlockings. A big part of it now is that CDOT isn't really eager to kick in the funds.
But if the Danbury line keeps getting more and more traffic, it's inevitable.
The thing I'm waiting to see is if MN decides to push north of Croton Harmon.
NOOOOO! No more of the constant tention crap. I do not want to see the "french" method of electrifacation take over this country. How on earth can that stiff be better? There's basically nothing holding up the wires. Nothing, but nothing can beat I-beams, diamond stays, Y braces and 3 section chain insulators. If mother nature wants to screw around, we'll just add more I-beams, copper tubes and copper flashing, miles of stay wire and heavier inslulators. If its good enough for the Standard Railroad of the World its good enough for the sub-standard railroads. Our railraods weren't built on the premise of letting nature boss them around. That wire is going to stay in one place and its going to like it! That New Haven triangle catenary is really beautyful and NYDoT had to come along and ruin it. If you think I;m just a nut you don't have to take my word for it. I was talking to the catenary maintainers at New Haven station and they totally agree with me and miss the old stuff.
/*How on earth can that stuff be better?*/
It's more reliable by a long shot:
a) it has fewer parts
b) it's lighter
c) Because it's constant tension, its geometry is not dependant on temperature, thus, it's much less prone to dewiring.
One could argue there's less fatigue on the wires because it's under constant tension too..
/*There's basically nothing holding up the wires.*/
The upper arm (horizontal member) is in tension, the diagnal arm is in compression. It's a giant triangle. Then you have a second arm down below to stabalize the trolley wire.
/* If its good enough for the Standard Railroad of the World its good enough for the sub-standard railroads*/
It's also extrodinarilly expensive, limited to low speeds, prone to breakage, prone to dewirements, and maintenance intensive, and complicated.
Also, when it breaks, it can sometimes wipe out 2 (or more) tracks at the same time, whereas constant tension stuff won't. Thus, with constant tension, you can tie it out of the way and maybe save a bit of the rush hour...
Oh yeah, and visually intrusive.
/*That wire is going to stay in one place and its going to like it!*/
Actually, it doesn't stay in one place - as it gets colder, it draws inward on curves, as it gets warmer, it sags outward and downward. If anything, the constant tension stuff stays more in place. That's why there's no speed restrictions for it like there are on the old stuff in CT.
/*That New Haven triangle catenary is really beautyful and NYDoT had to come along and ruin it*/
It is nice, but that stuff is due for replacement, and constant tension stuff is simply better. And much less expensive.
Oh yes, and constant tension is a British development, not a French one, I believe.
Metro-North still has a shortage of MUs? I would've thought with the purchases of M4 and M6 triples, they would now have enough. The Danbury Branch probably is seeing much more traffic now than ever. MN should purchase push-pull coaches and dual-mode (catenary & 3rd rail) locos for the main line to New Haven. Those are less expensive to maintain and it should free up some MUs for Danbury shuttles and through-trains should catenary be restored there (Danbury never should have been dewired).
Has this happened anywhere else?
Sure, ever hear of the Bay Ridge Branch? :-)
Just putting up a post from our new PC. We got rid of the WebTV and use this for home office purposes.
Now all my posts won't be pressed to the side of the monitor.
steve--- the problem with text being pressed very close to the left on the screen with webtv can be very simply solved by putting a couple of books underneath the left side of your television, thus causing the electrons to gravitate more to the right side--- unfortunately that solution is not without its own difficulty as you would have to look at the screen with your head tilted to the right---
frankly i have not been troubled by that problem with text being close to the screen as i never bother reading what other people have to say...
I have a bad neck.
Plus I only have 3 books and they're thin paperback:):)
i am sorry to hear about your neck...
boy he sure took his time answering my post
don't get nasty with the guy.. he's one of the
members of ustalk
i guess you're happy you don't have to use webtv
anymore
he thinks he's too good for webtv and that most
webtv users are a bunch of idiots
cut it out... steve is a good guy... he had a chance
to better his internet connection and he took it...
you're just jealous
i'm not jealous of anyone... and i'm getting tired
of all your nice guy crap... i'll say whatever i
feel like
cool it jason... if you start in with your "i don't
care" attitude, you'll land us back in the nut house
put a hot towel on your neck and i am sure you will feel better... i got to run, i have a bad headache...
not bad i have a new, I-MAC..!!!
I fear a can of worms has been opened with the recent emergence of a thread regarding police/community relations and the opinions expressed therein.
THIS IS DANGEROUS GROUND.
For all of my fellow SubTalkers, WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE AN OPINION ON THIS MATTER, PLEASE keep that opinion private, OR confine discussion of it to e-Mail, if possible, as it is a very divisive topic. ANYWAY, this board asks only that we stick to transit topics - this potentially inflammatory topic has NOTHING to do with transit or transit issues. The last thing I want to see is - You know what I mean, I don't have to spell it all out for you.
Wayne
All right, I will stop, I apologise for my attempt to enter the thread, but I do not apologise for my comments about the topic.
You see the kind of crap Salaam Allah drags us into? And it's my fault for getting dragged in!
oh you are all alright all the time !!!!!!!! what happened in new york is not crap and you did not drag !!
it does worry me about my safety in new york not coming from crimminals........... but police ????
I have noticed a resistance when I try and ask subtalkers about interlockings on the subway. I ask and I ask, but my questions always seem to be disregarded. However I will try try again with the following post:
I was wondering how interlockings are named on the NYCS. On railraods they were often given a 1 or 2 letter call sign or they were given a short nick-name based on their location. Needless to say they tried to keep things short so communications could be made simpler. Today most railroads have done away with names and letters and just use milepost numbers. Blah blah blah you know all this. I have a sneaking suspiction that most interlockings are named after streets in their vicinity, but does anybody know of any more creative names like CORK or DOCK or LANE to give some railroad examples.
All of them are named after the subway station where they are located.
I think I have seen one called LACK on the NJ Transit. I may be thinking of something else.
I dont know about the subway but I know on Metro-North's ex NYC lines the interlockings were mostly 2 letter telegraph call signs. This was before the advent of CTC of course. Here's some that come to mind:
Croton-North "CD"
Harmon Yard "HM"
Tarrytown "OW"
Spuyten Duyvil"DV" (my old hangout)
Hope this helps
Steve L
In general, they're named for either the station nearest to them - such as the Mott Ave Interlocking - or by the homeball that governs the switch - 64 Ball, which will put a Lex Ave Express on the local track at Brooklyn Bridge, forcing it to go around the loop.
All,
Since the opening of the HBLR is right around the corner, I've revamped our Hudson-Bergen Light Rail pages. I set up the beginnings of a station by station guide and added photos (61 new ones, taken Friday and today) of the stations from Harborside to Liberty State Park.
Also, I've never done this before so I don't know how it'll go over with you Dedicated Surfers, but I put up an MPEG movie from the Liberty State Park station. It's 320x200 or so, 30 seconds long, and is about 700K. Please, if you download this, let me know what you think. I haven't put video clips on the site before now. Basically I'm interested in opinions e.g. size of file vs. quality, etc.
-Dave
Seeing a transit line put into operation in NJ really highlights what the Vampire State doesn't do for us. I hope the opening ceremonies include a dig or two at New York, where lawsuits and cost over-runs would make any such project impossible.
Hopefully, the local TV stations and newspapers will also focus on it, because unless the local pol's and MTA get their feet held to the fire by the public over some of the current proposals (Second Ave., LGA, Javits Center extension, etc.), proposals are all they'll ever be.
Who is that guy asking you questions? "You work for a newspaper or something?"
Well, at least now we know how you sound like.
Huh?
At the last couple of seconds or so, someone asked Dave if he worked for a newspaper. Watch the video again and you'll probably hear it.
Oh, yeah, it was one of the workmen. After I told him "no" he suggested I shouldn't take any more pictures.
-Dave
Well maybe you do not represent a news paper but you run the best transit news organization on the WEB. I think that deserves a press credential.
Yes. You've got to hand it to New Jersey and NJT for making good on this project. And more locos and railcars are on their way, as well as more LRVs for the Trenton-Camden line. Congratulations, Jersey, you have transporation planners who care about the state they live in and the people they serve, instead of themselves. What a shame that Connecticut and New York are so closed-minded when it comes to light-rail as well as other forms of rail transit. But that just tells you how things work in Connecticut and New York.
All the proposals for improving the West Side Highway that I've seen don't even mention light rail and neither does Hartford's "ambitious" Adriaen's Landing project. Hartford did have a proposal for light rail to Bradley Airport. That one bit the dust. And what happened to the 42nd Street Light Rail project.
"And what happened to the 42nd Street Light Rail project."
Somebody came to their senses and killed it.
Oh, so it is dead. I thought that's what happened to it. Yeah, the LRV line on 42nd Street was a bad idea. It made sense to kill it. With all that traffic, it would have been a failure. A West Side light rail line might work better.
You can forget about street-running light rail anywhere in NYC. Transit planners love it but it really is inflexible in terms of extending or modifying routes. Perhaps in a dedicated ROW arrangement it might work. Some here on S.I. have proposed that for the North Shore line with a street running portion down South Avenue to the Teleport complex. I can't see the MTA getting back into the trolley business.
Does NJT bus oporate the new rail system like with newark city subway or is it oporated by NJT rail?
Technically neither. The HBLR will be operated under contract to a group known as the 21st Century Rail Corporation (a DBOM contract: Design, Build, Operate, Maintain).
-Dave
Are these people NJT employees if not why does why is the equipment wear NJT colors?
No, they're employees of 21st Century Rail Corporation which was let the DBOM contract by New Jersey Transit. The funding is coming from the state so of course NJT is going to get it's logo on the equipment...
Did you know that NJT is not a state agency it is actully a private company they do however recive funding by the state but not as much as if it was state owned. If what you say is true would'ent you think they would put thier own logos on thier equipment like the PA does with the path system? I remember NJT use to lease buses to a private company called TCT transit but I do not think they are doing this anymore at least not in the paramus area
david--- viewing it via webtv was strange---all i saw was the car moving hesitantly as the green arrow moved to the right--- one of the guys reported hearing sound, but i didn't get any sound--- perhaps that only comes through if you have webtv plus--- perhaps for webtver's, you could arrange a lower tech presentation, something like individual photographic images kind of mechanically riffed to create the illusion of motion.....
I thought a 320x200 mpg was already low tech. I don't have any tools that can edit mpeg video so anything else will be left as an exercise to some enterprising person...
-Dave
I have about 13-14 HBLRT shots if you're interested in them!
Trevor
That was a great film! The way the train whined as it pulls into the curve and then stopped shows how hesitantly we move towards progress, kicking and screaming all the way, this is better illustrated by the completely new state of the light rail. The way the train barrels down straight at the eye of the viewer at the opening illustrates how this reluctance to move on will eventually mow us down. Finally, the immediately changing angle, to the train moving away shows how, in an instant, we will lose everything, and then cry for our loss.
EXCELLENT WORK!
> Finally, the immediately changing angle
:-) Actually this is because the camera will only record 15 seconds at a time; I "cat"'ed two mpg's together to make one big one.
-Dave
Dave, I'm only getting 14 seconds of video - I'm not picking up anything after the train is directly in front of the camera. It's downloading as a 664K file.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What player are you using? It works fine in MS Media Player. It's the only one I have -- so if it's a problem with the viewer I can't really be of much use.
-Dave
I didn't have any trouble with either the download or the play - using MS Media Player. Very nice video, and the "splice" doesn't even show.
One comment about HBLR (also applies to the Baltimore Light Rail): Haven't these light rail guys ever heard of curve greasers? The audio track plainly shows the screaming as the car enters the curve. Our wounderful ABB Traction/AdTranz LRV's scream through every curve from Hunt Valley (lots of 35 and 40 foot radii) to Cromwell and Penn Station to BWI Airport.
I used RealPlayer 7 basic. The "cat" doesn't show, the quality is OK. As soon as the car is directly in front of you, the motion stops, but you hear the audio for about another 8 seconds or so.
--Mark
Movieplayer, either with or without QuickTime translation. I'm running on a G3 Mac with OS 8.6.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For some reason, the first half of it works fine on my PowerMac G3, but then the rest dies. Not sure if it's netscape, the file, or QT4 (I've had wacky mpegs before..)
Anyway, what part of it worked was neat.
Would it be possible to use other formats, or make a larger sized movie (for those of us with semi high bandwidth connections - though my school's has been acting up as of late...)?
Anyway, it's still a neat idea!
But I really wish the cars had the same kind of diamond pantogaphs the Arrows have!!
> Would it be possible to use other formats,
I don't know much about conversion of video formats. The camera only uses MPG.
> or make a larger sized movie (for those of us with semi high
> bandwidth connections
Nope, that's as big as they get. It's primarily a still camera with the ability to store small snippets of video (15 seconds max at 320x200). But if anyone else wants to donate some video to the site get in touch with me...
-dave
Don't worry .... at the point that I get a Dazzle or one of those other analog-to-digital-format-x thingamabobs under USB, I'll be in touch with you :)
--Mark
DON'T!!! The quality on the USB Dazzle is lower than most web content. It's also much slower, and uses a ton of system resources. Bettr off getting a PCI card that can do video capture, such as ATI's card, or a Haupague TV Tuner card. Much better quality, uses fewer resources, but runs pretty hot. If you've got a lot of cards, you need an additional fan. I intend to eventually buy a digital camcorder and a firewire card. Unfortunately, I have to buy a car and find a place to live before I can indulge myself.
-Hank
Good to know ... thank you.
As for buying a car and finding a place to live, I'm afraid I can't help you there :) But good luck!
--Mark
No problem viewing and hearing the entire clip from here. I would like to see more clips like this available.
No problems also on Windows NT and 98 via T1 and dialup on Windows Media Player.
Nicely done Dave.
The movie clip was good. It was good to see the new NJT LRVs in action. Those are nice LRVs. The normal size of the film on my computer was small so I doubled the size of the film. It was a little blurred, but I was still able to see it well. The film was a little slow on my computer, but that's because I have an older computer and any film I download will play slowly on my 1996 Mac. Dave, you should put more films on the site. Nice job with the Jersey City LRVs. I also like the pictures of the Light Rail system on the site.
Why won't Connecticut and New York be more open-minded towards Light Rail?
Dave: The film was super. Especially the sounds of the screeching train. Too bad that workman put a damper on your efforts.
Chuck Greene
The screeching train noise hurt my ears, I couldn't get to the end. Read my artistic view of this, I didn't include the little "chat" at the end as I never heard it.
Are you whistleing to yourself during the first clip? Also the train does under a big RR looking bridge. Is that the old CNJ bridge into the CNJ terminal?
The RR bridge is the Conrail (well, former Conrail) National Docks Secondary between Oak Island and Croxton Yards. If you have the book "Railroad Atlas of North America" Northeast Edition (published by Steam Powered Video) this is on map MNY-5. The bridge in the photo/video is approximately at the point marked Communipaw. The book has it marked Conrail-Lehigh Valley and is distinct from the former CNJ lines in the area.
If you look at that map MNY-5 you'll see a CNJ branch in dotted line (i.e. abandoned) just south of Communipaw and perpendicular to the NDS, that's the HBLR West Side Branch, and the dotted line (abandoned) CNJ line heading south to Bayonne is the HBLR Bayonne Branch. So, technically, these shouldn't be marked with the dotted lines anymore.
-Dave
I don't have any of those rail atlases. I mainly use De Lorme, but I go have a nice Hagestrom Atlas of Hudson, Essex and Union counties, but that's at home. I'll just swing by the USGS topo map archive in the library. What roads is it near?
The bridge in the video passes over Johnston Ave. near the entrance to Liberty State Park. Try this link for a mapsonus map.
PS: How much do those rail atlases cost and are they worth it (if you already have De Lormes). BTW were you whistleing to yourself and why didn't you pass yourself off as a member of the web press?
> BTW were you whistleing to yourself and why didn't you pass
> yourself off as a member of the web press?
I'll have to rewatch the video with the speakers hooked up. I did try to pass myself off as a member of the "web press" but I suspect that guy had not too much of an idea what I was talking about...
-Dave
I have heard that the R110 is running on the C and was wondering if that is still true. I am planning to go looking for it on Wednesday and would appreciate a definite report on if it's running by then. So if anyone knows- please respond...
Thanks,
Harry
where the 142 will go ???
You can find the R-110B on the C line!
Times:
Leaves 168th Street at either 9:56a or 10:06a
Leaves Euclid at 11:23a or 11:33a
Leaves 168th Street at 1:43p
Trevor Logan
Also The R-110A can be found sitting up at the 239th Street Yard!
Trevor
did they fix the contact shoes ??
Was the R-110B on the L some time ago?
According to one "Creative" mind it was, When in reality, It was laid up that week in 207th Street Yard.
What's the deal with key-by. I would assume that it would be a fairly common proceedure, but I also read in a few places that due to some accident it was prohibited. Can anyone calrify this?
You would assume wrong if you assume it's no big deal. Keying by is a procedure whereby a train operator can move his train at very slow speed over the insulated joint (IJ) at the beginning of a block. As he does, the stop arm will drop, permitting the train to pass a red signal. It is a given on yard leads operating according to the appropriate rule, however, it is never done on the main line without permission from supervision.
The incident you are alluding to is the one where a G train rear ended an R train near Steinway Street. It was found that because the automatic signal was virtually on top of the 10-car mark, if the train operator started his train without checking the signal aspect, the train would be traveling slow enough to key by the signal without the operator intending to do so. It became possible to, therefore, rear end the train in front if it were stopped. Hence, the key-by feature was defeated on any 'leaving' signal within a specified distance of the 'STOP' mark.
All right, that's what I wanted to hear. Its rant time now! I've been argueing with English trainspotters over this issue for some time. I don't know what your thinking about, but keying-by is just a pain-in-the-ass version of stop & proceede (or permissive stop) seen on quality railroads all over the world. Permissive block operations are ABSOLUTLY CRITICAL to for trains to keep any sort of time on a congested lines. On a recent trip on the NEC my train got stopped for the Hackensack Draw. The following train (hauled by an E60) was able to creep right up behind my train instead of having to wait at the last signal back. If Amtrak passenger trains (that have the all out stopping power of a slab of tefflon on wet ice), on the best stretch of track in the US can safely use S&P, then I'm sure that the light weight, hi-axle density subway cars could also use S&P. Permissive Block increases the # of trains you can have on a given line. Also if one train is delayed, the trains behind it can still make progress. Would people still be as eagar to hold the doors when the next train is visable, waiting behind the first? The accident Mr. Dude described above is not an indication of a failure of the key-by system. The driver wasn't even attempting to key-by, he just a victim of poor signal layout.If I had my way I'd replace the red light on ABS signals with a lunar white light and modify the trip arms so train could key by at 5 mph. The key to good system is keeping things moving. Its not top speed, but average speed. Maintain momentum. Its also a morale boost for the passengers. As long as they feel that they are making progress, they will keep hope alive. If you were wondering how back in the day they had train densities of 90 tph, it was because of permissive block. If the TA does not feel that it can trust its motormen to obey the rules of Restricted Speed they can impliment a signal calling policy where a motorman must call over the radio ever signal he keys-by. Well those are my 3 cents.
FWIW I believe most, if not all of the signals on the TGV are permissive.
//If Amtrak passenger trains (that have the all out stopping power of a slab of tefflon on wet ice)
Most US rail equipment does. The "Heavier is safer" attitude to railcar design in the US has many drawbacks, inability to stop quickly is one of them. I've been on Amfleet (AEM-7 hauled) trains that have popped into emergency. It's not very awe inspireing, in fact, the train didn't stop very quickly at all.
As far as resignaling of the subway, hopefully, the new system will allow for permissive blocks. provided train #2 behind train #1 is going slower than train #1, then (except for interlockings), I don't see why there's such a need for absolute stop signals. Save for keeping trains from bunching...
[FWIW I believe most, if not all of the signals on the TGV are permissive.
//If Amtrak passenger trains (that have the all out stopping power of a slab of tefflon on wet ice)
Most US rail equipment does. The "Heavier is safer" attitude to railcar design in the US has many drawbacks, inability to stop quickly is one of them. I've been on Amfleet (AEM-7 hauled) trains that have popped into emergency. It's not very awe inspireing, in fact, the train didn't stop very quickly at all.
As far as resignaling of the subway, hopefully, the new system will allow for permissive blocks. provided train #2 behind train #1 is going slower than train #1, then (except for interlockings), I don't see why there's such a need for absolute stop signals. Save for keeping trains from bunching...]
It seems that every time a flaw in the signals or breaks causes a freak accident, the TA decides to cripple performance rather than fixing the underlying problem. That being said, it seems to me you could easily design an inexpensive local electronic system to permit safe key-by's at dense stations, and use it with the existing signal system.
FWIW I believe most, if not all of the signals on the TGV are permissive.
Technically, the TVM ATP system will permit a maximum speed of 35km/h within an occupied block. I don't know anything about the TGV driving rulebook(s) so I can't comment on if driving into occupied blocks is procedurally allowed (i.e. the driver won't have his ears clipped to the catenary if he tries it. :-)) or merely a technical allowance designed into the TVM system to cope with equipment failures and/or facilitate shunting movements.
CH.
There is a difference between being able to stop & proceed and
being allowed to. In bygone years, automatic signals on the
subway system were by default stop & proceed. After stopping,
the motorman was allowed to key-by the signal (either by pulling
up on the IJ or, in older territories, by operating the key).
This rule was changed about 25 years ago after all the lines
got radios. Now the motorman must ask for permission before
keying by. To key by without permission is a major no-no
in the NYCTA.
The incident that Train Dude refers to resulted in certain signals
being modified so it was no longer physically possible to key
by. This was not a rule change. With the NO KEY BY signals one
must hook down the stop arm in case of signal failure (and follow
all of the rules associated with that procedure)
Not having a permissive block system does not result in quite
the level of delay you might think. You are thinking in terms
of the high iron. In the subway system, were congestion is a problem,
there are timed approach signals used which allow a following train
to creep up on its leader at a slow speed. This is in effect
permissive block operation but with train stop enforcement of
the Restricted Speed rule.
The incident that Train Dude refers to resulted in certain signals
being modified so it was no longer physically possible to key
by. This was not a rule change. With the NO KEY BY signals one
must hook down the stop arm in case of signal failure (and follow
all of the rules associated with that procedure)
Hooking down the stop arm is just as big of a no-no. The correct procedure for passing red automatics with a "No Key By" feature is, after getting permission, to put the first wheel over the IJ, secure the train, go to the roadbed and step on the stop arm until it retains, then proceed with Restricted Speed with Extreme Caution.
I was in a large signal failure from just before Dekalb (Lawerence Street) to almost 7th Ave effecting B,D,N,R lines about a year ago. All signals were red with stop arms up. EVERY TRAIN, I mean each and every one had to call Command for permision to Key By. You spent more time waiting to get some clear air on the radio then for command to give permision. I huge nightmare, even when the conductor explained the procedure for the 20th time >G<.
During the Mid-day Mott Avenue Mess of March 13th (Mmmmm!) they did exactly as described above, in order to wrong-rail a northbound #2 (packed with unhappy campers) around a nest of disabled trains and what looked like a work crew.
Wayne
Anywhere there's been a rear-ender, you'll see the NO KEY BY sign and the lunar white aspect. Between Grand and Graham on the "L" is one such snail zone. And with good reason: not one but TWO rear-enders there (one involving work equipment, the other involving passengers), plus a very tight, limited-sight-distance curve. I also think there's a No Key By where the 1991 wreck occurred at Union Square.
Wayne
Mr. Dude????
-Hank
The key to good system is keeping things moving. Its not top speed, but average speed. Maintain momentum. Its also a morale boost for the passengers. As long as they feel that they are making progress, they will keep hope alive. If you were wondering how back in the day they had train densities of 90 tph, it was because of permissive block.
90 tph was achieved only on the Brooklyn Bridge between Park Row and Sands St. Permissive blocks were not key to this operation. It was designed to perform this way. All trains operated at speed.
The present system is designed to permit 90 second intervals between trains. This translates to 40 tph. Running trains at this rate subjects them to yellow and red aspects due to the placement of stations relative to one another. This can be avoided by adding a 10 to 30 seconds cushion to the schedule thereby reducing the maximum rate to 30 to 36 tph. Trains will not encounter a yellow or red aspect, when scheduled at this rate.
The 90 second interval was determined by the braking rate (1.5 mph/s) then in place. Braking rates double that were running in the 1930's. Braking rates of 7 mph/s are possible with track brakes but will cause injuries to the passengers if applied. Rates around 4 mph/s can be applied. Acceleration rates of 4 mph/s are used elsewhere. Using faster equipment and retiming the signals would reduce the interval to 80 seconds and should permit 40 tph. NYCT equipment is still mired in the lower performance rates by design.
NYCT currently runs 24 to 27 tph on all lines except the #7 which runs 29. They do not have enough equipment to run more trains. This presents an additional problem - dwell time. Today's equipment does not permit passengers to enter and exit as quickly as the first generation equipment. As train frequency is decreased individual car loading increases proportionately. However, loading/unloading times increase faster. This is the crux of the problem - not lack of keying-by.
Also if one train is delayed, the trains behind it can still make progress. Would people still be as eagar to hold the doors when the next train is visable, waiting behind the first?
I don't know how long the blocks are on the big roads, but down here if I have a train in front of me, that's what's stopping me from going anywhere. There are a number of stations where I can crawl up right behind the guy in front, and it doesn't make a difference to the morons holding open his doors. They can see me, but that train is there already. So the answer to your question is, YES!!!
I like MR. Dude or perhaps Sir Dude? However, you are comparing apples to pineapples when you compare AMTRAK to NYCT. First of all, how long is the average block on AMTRAK? Also, on which would a complete stop have the greatest impact on average speed. One aspect of the rule governing keying by is the operator's range of vision. Where do you think the range of vision is greater, AMTRAK or NYCT? It really does not come down to trusting the operators more or less. It comes down to the very close environmment in which they operate.
BTW - I am not sure but I believe that LIRR passenger trains may not pas a stop signal without permission given on a document referred to as a 'C' card.
Wow, they are still using Clearance Form C. A FORM C was the standard form used by the Pennsylvania Railraod for "to permit a train or engine to pass a Stop-signal in case of signal failure, or when signal cannot be displayed for an engine returning to its train." Today members of NORAC use the more versitile FORM D, but the LIRR in not a NORAC member and have preserved the traditional methods. The FORM C is used only for STOP signals, not Stop and Proceede. It is handed out by the tower operator if there is a signaling problem.
Here is an example: (There is more key-by arguement at the bottom)
FORM_________________________________________________________________________________FORM
C_______________________________________________________________________________________C
THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD
CLEARANCE CARD
. . . . . . . . . . . . Station, . . . . . . . . . . . M., . .. . . . . . . . 19 . . . . .
Train . . . . . . . . . . . . Engine . . . . . . . . . . . . on . . . . . . . . track.
(For extra train show direction)
Signal cannot be cleared:
1. (FOR BLOCK SIGNAL)--Proceed into the block as though . . . . . . . . . . . . . . signal were displayed.
2. (FOR INTERLOCKING SIGNAL)--Proceed from . . . . . . . . . . . . track to . . . . . . . . . . . . track, as though Restricting signal were displayed.
3. (FOR STOP-SIGNAL, NON-INTERLOCKED)--Proceed from . . . . . . . . . . . track to . . . . . . . . . . track, as though Restricting signal were displayed.
4. (FOR STOP-SIGNAL REFERRED TO IN RULE 509)--Proceed at . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ., as though Stop-and-proceed signal were displayed.
. . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Operator.
Here is the relivent rules.
"
Train addressed receiving this card may proceed as directed by the numbered paragraphs that are properly filled out.
Operator when issuing this card will be governed as follows:
Fill out paragraph l when signal is a manual block system signal, non-interlocked.
Fill out paragraph 2 when signal is an interlocking signal and not a manual block system signal.
Fill out paragraphs 1 and 2 when signal is an interlocking signal and is also a manual block system signal, for movement through the interlocking and into the block.
Fill out paragraph 3 when signal is a home signal, non-interlocked, in manual block signal system territory.
Fill out paragraph 4 when signal is a Stop-signal as referred to in Rule 509.
Paragraph l will be used only when block is clear, or is clear of opposing trains but is occupied by a train which may be followed by train addressed in the same block.
Paragraph 4 will be used only when track is clear of opposing trains to the next block station or interlocking and clear of trains in the same direction to the next block signal. NOTE--Conductor or Engineman required to fill out this card at an Interlocking which is operated from an Interlocking Station in service part time when such Interlocking Station is closed, must know that the route is clear, that the switches are properly lined and signals governing routes that conflict with the one indicated on the card display their most restrictive indication.
(To be printed on pink paper 6" x 5".)
"
Does the LIRR still give out KK, C.T. 1246 and C.T. 1250 forms too?
To continue with the arugement. The blocks might be smaller and visibility might be limited, but subway trains can stop in a shorter distance. Furthermore restricted speed implies driving with the ability to stop with in 1/2 vision.
Couldn't the TA use something like a Form C when there is a signal failure like the one descirobed above?
Well a real form C is given by a tower operator to a passing train, ie a train order. Because of the decinle in towermen most railraods can issue these clearance forms over the radio. They become effective once the engineer repeats the order back word for word. I'm sure the TA has something like this now and if it dosen't its just plain stupid.
The TA does exactly that. I'm not sure if the rule number has recently changed but it was not uncommon to instruct a motorman to "Key by according to rule 37n and be prepared to stop within 1/2 your range of vision".
I can just see it now - ( I am forever forgetting my pens) I'm tied up at a major junction and don't have a pen, and I have to canvass the passengers in order to borrow one so I can fill out a form in order to proceed. The angry pax would probably have me drawn and quartered.
Wayne :o>
You don't fill out the form, the Towerman does and then he hoops it up to you with a train order fork (or just stands on the platform and gives it to you). I guess if they did it via radio someone would have to copy it down and read it back, but the conductor should be able to take care of that. On the other, other hand if there was a signal outage I'm sure there's be signal personal on hand to pass out the forms.
If it has a number plate beneath the signal, or a single white
light, it's permissive.
I think I saw this the other day. The Main Street-bound 7 train I was riding on had a red signal outside 111 Street. There was a train crossing on to the Main Street-bound local track just beyond 111 Street. The train started moving slowly. I saw the trip arm go down. The train then entered the 111 Street station with no further delay.
I was on a Kawasaki R62 on the 4 a few years ago and found that the seats on the first five cars were different than the normal R62 seats. The seat back was almost at a right angle from the seat bottom, both of whcih were flat as boards. Most uncomfortable things I have ever experienced. Many seats were empty because people had chosen to stand.
Rather than attempt to explain the differences here, I have included a drawing of the seat back as best as I remember it. Try to imagine looking straight on at the seat backs of 4 seats in a row.
Are there still seats like this on some R62s? If so, what car numbers?
1586-1590 are like this. I wonder why they didn't do the rest of them like that?
-Stef
Thanks ALOT! I was under the crazy impression that those cars were at the beginning of the order! Thanks for not laughing at my drawing.
Actually, 1586 to 159_1_ (6 cars).
Could we add this to the FAQ? It keeps coming up.
David
I always thought those cars with the benches was an experiment. When the R-62's arrived I remember people complained that the seats were too small for the average sized adult.
Wayne
Correct -- it was an experiment.
David
Hi all,
Anyone have a copy of Hudson-Bergen Light Rail track map of Phase I (if you have phase II, that would be GREAT!) I want to draw from that map to post on this site for HBLR section.
Let me know via adler@nycsubway.org or
adler1969@aol.com
Thanks in advance,
Mike the Mailman
I haven't really been paying attention to this project, but it looks like the line follows the CNJ railroad grade. Is this right. Would have been nice if they had run it into the CNJ terminal and put the trainshed back to some use. Also, is the Exchange Place terminal built on the former PRR Harbourside Terminal site? (Is there even anything left of old Harbourside?)
> looks like the line follows the CNJ railroad grade
True - it's the same ROW but the tracks have been rebuilt from scratch. The NJ 169 highway project takes up half the ROW with the rest being the HBLR and a freight track.
> Also, is the Exchange Place terminal built on the former PRR
> Harbourside Terminal site?
The whole area where the PRR terminal used to be is now office buildings (check out the pictures). The whole area has been redeveloped. The HBLR Exchange Place station (not a terminal) is in a street-running portion of the line. There's no remains of the former PRR heritage in the area. A bit to the north, the Harsimus Cove viaduct remains as far east as Luis Munoz Marin Blvd. (previously known as Henderson Street) but the bridges at the street crossings have been removed.
-Dave
I've observed rails embedded in the street/asphalt in and around the large parking lot west of the Exchange Place PATH station (just North of -- right across the street from 101 Hudson). Are these perhaps former PRR lines to Harbourside, or are they former trolley tracks?
Most likely former trolley or freight sidings serving former industries in the area. There were a number of trolley routes to the Exchange Place area.
Woo Hoo. Another PRR fan. That makes 2.
I noticed rails embedded in Essex St ( at Greene St ) when excavation was underway for the HBLR. Tracks enter into the old Colgate-Polmolive buildings in the area.
I believe there were freight terminal;s at both Harborside and Harsimus Cove.
There are still rails on a pier behind (on the river side of) Harborside.
Friday morning, while riding west on the NEC around Elizabeth, I observed an Amtrak train headed east, which wouldn't be unusual except that the last four cars were apparently SPV-2000s, with the ConnDot orange striping on the side. Are they leasing them due to a car shortage or were they just being towed back from somewhere?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They were probably being borrowed for service. This tends to happen from time to time when AMTK finds it needs equipment for service that lacks equipment. I can recall of one occasion when a SEPTA AEM7 came up to NY to work by acting a Switcher/Tow Locomotive pulling consists to and from Sunnyside Yard in Queens.
-Stef
On the Corridor during the Holiday period, one can see ATK AEM7's with SEPTA and MARC equipment, MARC motors with Amcoaches, SEPTA motors with NJ Transit cars, and NJT motors with any of the above (ATK, MARC, NJT or SEPTA), or a mixed bag. It's a really neat show.
I once saw a train of Septa cars with a Septa AEM7 sitting in Sunnyside Yard. I also saw a MARC Train pull into Newark Penn and discharge a few passenegers, while most stayed on. Philadelphia clockers occasionally use NJT equipment. I have also seen MARC bilevels in that yard between NY and NWK. For a while, just east of newark I could see a LIRR bilevel coupled to a white tank car on a siding near the Budwiser plant. Not visible unless you know what you're looking for.
Amtrak had been bulking up this weekend because of the possible US Airlines strike. Not many people commute on the weekend so ConnDoT could spare them.
Twice I saw an Amtrak train pull into New Haven headed for Boston with an SPV car at the end. Both times were on a Friday afternoon. I wonder why . . .
I saw a few years in Sunnyside freight yard two SPVs from CDOT. I thought Metro-North was getting Amfleets.
After this Saturday's training session -- where I got to take the Third Avenue car through the Loop at Alex -- I ended up volunteering for "hazardous duty" with Jeff H. on the PCC.
Given an air-knife, I went to work on removing a section of handbrake resistance-armature (?) from it's housing. The piece had come off another PCC (parts car?) and was going to be cannibalized for car 1001. It took abit of doing to cut the thing loose, but after a good hour at it, the piece broke free from it's welded joints.
After my victory, I got the chance to chat with Steve K. during a break from his tresle chores up by Sprague. Turns out we both have experience as "motorcycle heads" (he still rides, I've since given up two-wheelers -- at least with a motor).
Just another weekend up at Branford.
Doug aka BMTman
don't think i have forgotten about our subtalk blizzard trip on the rockaway line, where it is hoped that the train will become disabled due to icing and snow, so that we can have a true wilderness experience aboard an r-38, or even a misrouted r-110b... this morning's weather reports call for heavy windswept rain this evening... although the temperatures are forecast to be about 20 degrees above freezing, i am working some connections that i have up in canada to dispatch a canadian cold front down here, just in time to turn the rainstorm into 20 inches of sleet, freezing rain, and ice which will cripple the city and the subways... if the sanitation department is not able to clear the streets in queens fast enough, perhaps this storm will be just the push rudy needs in his senatorial race....
WOW!!
Stop dreaming.
I heard on the news this morning that the Newark Momorail is closing due to rusting problems...
if the subway closed for rusting there'd be no redbirds....
The tracks on the EWR Monorail are rusted. $25 Million to replace but the maker will pick up the tab. The line will be shut down end of May through the fall. Nothing but a money pit that the Port Authority built over there. Software bugs, won't run in the winter (shut down 4 days) and other problems have plagued the system. But over all it is still 100% better than the buses.
Here's what I've heard about the monorail problems: The winter time problems and the current rusting have the same root cause, from what I understand. Apparently there is a steel guideway welded onto the track on which the tires of the trains run. The vibration and pressure of the trains are causing these welds to crack. So, water's getting in (causing ice in the winter which does even more damage) and the guideway steel is rusting from the underneath and around the bad welds. The builder, Adtranz, is eating the repair cost. So while it might be a money pit, it's not the PA's money this time around.
-Dave
Is Adtranz eating the cost of the substitute bus service?
-Hank
Not to mention compensating the riding public for the added inconvenience. Can you say "Class action"?
I wonder if this problem results from a design flaw or shoddy materials or workmanship. Or is this going to be a matter of routine maintenance every few years?
I had to do an OJ Simpson routine (running, not killing) through Newark airport after I was stuck on the Monorail for almost 45 minutes on a frigid day around Christmas 98. I had dropped my wife and three kids (all under 5 years) at the terminal and they were already on the plane. Of course, the gate I needed was at the far end of the terminal so once I finally got off the damn thing it was a very long way.
I got to the gate and the agent said the plane was closed. Since they weren't going anywhere due to icing, they did reopen to let me on. We took off three hours late, with three squirming kids to take care of.
Is the monorail at EWK the only one in a region anywhere in the world which has a measurable snow fall? It seems other monorail system are in warmer or no-snow regions.
If EWK is such a case, proven technology (steel rail on steel wheel)should have been used.
Is this same problem going to happen on "Airtrain" At "JFK"
03/31/2000
"AIRTRAIN" will use conventional rails, like subways, commuter rail etc. This will not be a MONORAIL system.
Bill Newkirk
When I was at JFK on the 24th they were making what appeared to be substantial progress on certain segments (near Howard Beach) with laying track. As you note, it's conventional steel rail on modern concrete ties.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder if that would ever prompt them to change it over to subway cars? Could their supports support it?
I think so. It looks to be significantly over-engineered. But I'm only an amateur at stress analysis so I wouldn't want to make any grand pronouncement to that effect even if I had the data (which I don't).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My good friends from Branford have posted about their springtime activities in preparation for the upcoming trolley museum season.
Well, "equal time" for us from Seashore! Yesterday was Instructor Requalification Day, where we instructors go through our own training session, so that we can requalify returning, and train new operators over the next month or two. There was a lot of "electrotherapy" as we call it, with main line trips and significant yard shifting. Oh-what-a-shame that the IND R4/R7A 800/1440 train was in the way of something we really needed! It was so nice to hear its compressors chugging after a long winter of hibernation.
For those of you who are interested in visiting, Mr. t_^ and I will be working to arrange a SubTalk field trip to Boston and Seashore during the upcoming summer, probably during July. Keep tuned!!
In honor of Metrorail's REAL 24th birthday (WMATA says its Wednesday, the anniversary of the first day they collected fares), I went on a trip this morning. I walked to Friendship Heights (and a 42 bus passed me at Wisconsin and Somerset, a terrible feeling) and took the 7:41 L7 to Wheaton. We had a very good driver and he seemed to know the exact speed to run the bus so we'd arrive at Wheaton almost exactly on time. I went to the 5th floor of the parking garage and got some pics of the buses. Then I went back down and got a picture of "The Commuter", a statue outside of the station enterance. I went inside and hopped on the escalator (which I had never been on or seen). It seems it scares the heck out of some people for when I went to look for the bottom of the elevator, it had just arrived and many more people were getting out compared to that on the average elevator in the Metro. I also noted a sign was still up reading "All Trains to Shady Grove via Downtown D.C." (the DC was smaller than everything else) directly in front of the escalator. To the side were the correct signs reading "Shady Grove", and "Glenmont". I took a train to Rhode Island Avenue where I got off to wait for the first train to arrive after 9:00 AM, the time the system opened. This train did come and it was Breda cars but I took it anyway. I took that to Farragut North (it stopped at Gallery Place which was not one of the original 5 stations) and alighted there to separate the original route from where I needed to go. The next train was Rohr cars (if only I had waited but with the chances of getting a Rohr train 2.5:1, I settled with the Breda) and I took it one stop north to DuPont Circle. I saw the Northern Lights but photo ops are hard to get. It will be leaving sometime in Late-April so if any of you are coming here to DC, you should go see it (it is outside of fare control on the south side). I managed to go from Finland to the corner of Massachusetts Avenue and 20th Street, NW in a matter of minutes (what amazing technology, lol) and caught the N6 bus up to Friendship Heights.
I did NOT hear any operators say "Red line to Grosvenor-Strathmore". They should start soon (I think).
HAPPY 24TH BIRTHDAY METRORAIL!!!
In honor of Metrorail's REAL 24th birthday (WMATA says its Wednesday, the anniversary of the first day they collected fares), I went on a trip this morning. I walked to Friendship Heights (and a 42 bus passed me at Wisconsin and Somerset, a terrible feeling) and took the 7:41 L7 to Wheaton. We had a very good driver and he seemed to know the exact speed to run the bus so we'd arrive at Wheaton almost exactly on time. I went to the 5th floor of the parking garage and got some pics of the buses. Then I went back down and got a picture of "The Commuter", a statue outside of the station enterance. I went inside and hopped on the escalator (which I had never been on or seen). It seems it scares the heck out of some people for when I went to look for the bottom of the elevator, it had just arrived and many more people were getting out compared to that on the average elevator in the Metro. I also noted a sign was still up reading "All Trains to Shady Grove via Downtown
D.C.
" (the DC was smaller than everything else) directly in front of the escalator. To the side were the correct signs reading "Shady Grove", and "Glenmont". I took a train to Rhode Island Avenue where I got off to wait for the first train to arrive after 9:00 AM, the time the system opened. This train did come and it was Breda cars but I took it anyway. I took that to Farragut North (it stopped at Gallery Place which was not one of the original 5 stations) and alighted there to separate the original route from where I needed to go. The next train was Rohr cars (if only I had waited but with the chances of getting a Rohr train 2.5:1, I settled with the Breda) and I took it one stop north to DuPont Circle. I saw the Northern Lights but photo ops are hard to get. It will be leaving sometime in Late-April so if any of you are coming here to DC, you should go see it (it is outside of fare control on the south side). I managed to go from Finland to the corner of Massachusetts Avenue and 20th Street, NW in a matter of minutes (what amazing technology, lol) and caught the N6 bus up to Friendship Heights.
I did NOT hear any operators say "Red line to Grosvenor-Strathmore". They should start soon (I think).
HAPPY 24TH BIRTHDAY METRORAIL!!!
On the train from Wheaton 2 RI Ave, the operator INTENTIONALLY overshot the platform by 5-10 feet. The train stopped so the first door was at the extreme end of the platform. I could understand why the operator would stop at the escalator but OVERSHOOTING the platform is going too far.
I've seen that done on some platforms on the Market Frankford when the train overshoots the 6 a little. The front of the train is off the platoform, but the first door is still on.
In several PATH stations the marker is positioned so far into the tunnel the first doorway is practically in the tunnel! There is platform, but it is literally 2.5 feet wide!
Is this done on purpose or by accident. At Takoma, in case you've never been there, the escalator is at the extreme south end of the platform. I was on a 6 car train heading to Shady Grove (at this point of the line, we are heading south). The "6" marker is 75 feet from the end of the platform. The train kept going past and the T/O didn't make his final slowdown until a little late and then when we reached the "2/8" marker, kept going until he stopped with the door at the end of the platform. That was done on purpose. I have only been on the MFL twice and have yet to see such a thing. My impression from what you've posted is that this is accidental in Philly.
Sort of. It is very common when the T/O overshoots the sign by a few feet. Since the 6 is at the end of the platform, overshooting by a few feet will bring the train a few feet past the platform.
Was he on auto or manual mode?
This part is really funny. Wheeeeeeeee!
BTW, I know this is a mistake, but fun nonetheless! Wheeeee!
last night, i started a club on yahoo called
greyhound through express for people with an
interest in greyhound bus lines--- now i am sure
that no one here would be caught joining a club that
i am involved with, but surely you must have a few
lost soul friends with an interest in greyhound---
think of it, you could be helping your friends find
a home for their wayward interest, and more
importantly keep heypaul from thinking up ways to
drive jeff h. and stephen bauman crazy... i am
currently working on figures on floor space and the
golden ratio that will prove that there were more
people alive in the 1940's than there are now.
so here's the club address:
clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/greyhoundthroughexpress
through express connection
sorry but the link didnt work thru my mac. post it again !
No problems with the link. It worked on my PC.
salaam--- yahoo is running very slow and quirky today-- perhaps as a result of an overload of people seeking to join the greyhound through express club..
paul--- i'm glad you said the link worked
Oh! You're a MAC user. Thats explains a lot. Your opinions just became 40% less valid in my view. And since you live on the west coast you weren't doing too well to begin with.
WELCOME BACK heypaul!!!!!
PEACE,
ANDEE
I hope this topic is new. If peak hours are crowded , and we know that they are, lets lure the innocent riding public to off peak riding with incentive discounts on METROCARDS. Something like 9:00 PM thru 6:00 AM Monday - Friday gets a 25% discount. 8:00 PM - 9:00 PM and 6:00 AM - 6:30 gets a 20% discount. Something similar for holidays and weekends.
I'd like to think the crush hour would be a little lighter and volume and revenue in off hours would be up.
JUMP IN THE WATERS HOT!
avid
This is not a new idea. It's actually a pretty good idea. Some of the privately owned buses actually do it. As for the govt doing anything that makes sense, we should all live so long.
The time to push this idea is the next fare increase. Maybe we all should.
Rather than increase the fare to $1.65 across the board, the MTA could increase it to $2.00 from 7 a.m. to 9 a.m., and to $1.75 from 4 p.m to 7 p.m., Monday to Friday, leaving it the same other times. The a.m. peak is more of a problem than the P.M. peak, which is more spread out (the TA runs fewer trains PM). Unlimited ride cards would be increased in proportion, but perhaps the MTA could include a discounted unlimited ride card with a 7 a.m. to 9 a.m. blackout.
This is a good idea for several reasons. First, the affluent are more likely to use mass transit during rush hours only, whereas the poor use it all the time, and workers in low wage occupations are more likely to have shifts that begin and end in off peak hours (restaurant dishwashwers, store employees, janitors). Second, it might induce businesses that can to change their shift hours to allow employees to take advantage of the discounts. Third, it removes the loss of revenue from discresionary travel that you usually get by increasing the fare. Finally, it gives a break to the rising number of freelancers and home workers who travel in to Manhattan, generally off peak, for meetings or to meet with clients.
UNfortunately, the people with power are exactly those who only use mass transit during rush hour (think of people transferring from the commuter railroads). And for the Daily News, it will be a simple matter of $1.65 vs. an outrageous $2.00.
The higher rush hour fare is pretty much hated in DC. It leads to confusion and has people dodging and arguing to get around it.
In a City as contentious as NY, I would expect variable pricing to raise hackles even more. Can you imagine people arguing with the hapless clerk over the time? And what about the working poor who can't avoid the rush hours? Are we going to start to create a multi-tier fare system based on class lines?
What clerk? In a few years there'll only be MVMs in the stations. In case of dispute, the ruling of the turnstile clock is final.
So we'll have a lot of beaten up MVMs.
[So we'll have a lot of beaten up MVMs]
More realistically, we'd have crowds bunching up outside the turnstiles right before the end of the peak period. That could create quite a "traffic" jam in some stations.
(Traffic jam in stations)
You'd have to scale up to and down from the peak hour fare, a nickel every five minutes.
(Class system on transit)
We're heading that way already. NYC funds an off peak discount for buses in Queens, and has made the SI Ferry free, but has cut funding for the TA. Pataki proposes a big financing package that will make it easier to inter-mingle TA and commuter rail funds. Is he doing that so he can siphon money off from the suburbs to subsidize the subway? Don't think so. I just want to suffer in a way that increases economic rationality.
I don't think its a "caste system" for people to pay for what they use. Looking at it another way, a substantial share of the cost of purchasing, maintaining, and operating the subway and bus fleets -- perhaps as much as 40 percent -- is required by rush hour travelers alone. Off peak riders are cheaper to serve, and in many cases the marginal cost of serving another one is close to zero. Why should the off peak passenger, whose trip costs less on the margin, be forced to pay as much as someone hogging scarce rush hour capacity?
[I don't think its a "caste system" for people to pay for what they use. Looking at it another way, a substantial share of the cost of purchasing, maintaining, and operating the subway and bus fleets --
perhaps as much as 40 percent -- is required by rush hour travelers alone. Off peak riders are cheaper to serve, and in many cases the marginal cost of serving another one is close to zero. Why should the off peak passenger, whose trip costs less on the margin, be forced to pay as much as someone hogging scarce rush hour capacity?]
I understand what you mean - rush hour "peaking" is one of the main reasons why transit systems persistently run deficits. But charging more for rush hour travel will be unfair to many people. It simply isn't true that all or most rush hour riders are big shots who can change their work hours so as to travel after the rush. Most of them probably have no choice - indeed, if they did have a choice, I doubt if most would want to travel at rush hour regardless of fares. This isn't to say that higher peak fares are a bad idea, but it has to be considered.
(Charging for things hurts the poor)
The fact is, one could argue that charging for anything hurts the poor most, and therefore everything should be free, paid for by taxes on the rich. But that hasn't worked out that way.
I believe in charging people for what they use, and helping the poor in other ways. For example, one could implement congestion pricing on the roads, and peak hour pricing on the rails, in implement a higher minimum wage for shifts that begin or end during rush hours. That would give employers, as well as low wage employees, an incentive to alter their beginning and ending shifts by an hour or two.
Where do lower income people work in NYC? In retail and eating and drinking places, but these do not open an 9 a.m. and close at 5 p.m. In service occupations -- ditto. In construction and infrastructure maintenance -- same thing. The real 9 to 5ers were the pink collar workers, but they've been automated out of existance, one reason rush hour is a smaller share of overall ridership today.
[Where do lower income people work in NYC? In retail and eating and drinking places, but these do not open an 9 a.m. and close at 5 p.m. In service occupations -- ditto. In construction and infrastructure maintenance -- same thing. The real 9 to 5ers were the pink collar workers, but they've been automated out of existance, one reason rush hour is a smaller share of overall ridership today.]
That makes sense. I suppose that peak pricing therefore wouldn't be a terrible imposition on the poor. My concern, though that might not be the best choice of term, is that rush hour travel is miserable enough already - regardless of one's income - that charging more is sort of like adding insult to injury.
Excuse me , you over worked ,underpaid abused by the world drudge, but
I (MTA) am doing all I can to get you to the salt mine as cheaply and as comfortiblely as possible. It may appear as if I'm failing miserabley. While I (MTA) can't reduce the fare,increase your pay,wipe the sweat off your brow or make your ride incredibly more comfortible, I (MTA) can reward you if you can possible change your hours of economic bondage by reducing the fare relative to your change in hours. Your ride might not be as crowded and some of your peers , while not getting a reduction in fare might have a little bit more room.
Thank you for yor patience and co-operation and riding the MTA.
avid
[Excuse me , you over worked ,underpaid abused by the world drudge, but I (MTA) am doing all I can to get you to the salt mine as cheaply and as comfortiblely as possible. It may appear as if I'm failing
miserabley. While I (MTA) can't reduce the fare,increase your pay,wipe the sweat off your brow or make your ride incredibly more comfortible, I (MTA) can reward you if you can possible change your hours of economic bondage by reducing the fare relative to your change in hours. Your ride might not be as crowded and some of your peers , while not getting a reduction in fare might have a little bit more room.]
Er, where did I blame transit workers or even the MTA for rush hour misery? OF COURSE rush hour travel is going to be unpleasant, simply because there are too many people packed in too small a space. It's not something that anything or anyone can easily change.
Give me a break. It's always easy to be against "the system," but the system does what people tell it to. MTA policy is the result of the confluence of:
a) Taxpayers who don't want to pay more
b) Riders, who don't want to pay more
c) Construction workers and transit workers, who want to earn more.
d) State laws that favor contractors, public employees and those selling to the government.
e) 30 years of disinvestment in the infrastructure, only partially reversed, combined with rising debt.
Your issue isn't the "the MTA." It's with all those other people.
Peter
I'm not saying you blame the MTA . My message is only this , to try to encourage more use during the lesser used hours of the day. Nowing that the MTA has expenses and liabilities , one of it's sources is the fare box. A lesson from commerce shows humans like "SALES", DISCOUNTS, Put the word "SALE "in front of anything and a lot of people I know will create a small crowd. Add to that Discounts , 20%
15% 10% 25% off and now the size of the crowd will grow.
My aim is to ease crowding,improve customer satisfaction and maintain or increase the cash flow. Look back in the short history of the METROCARD, I don;t beleive it's success has peeked out. I beleive more juice can be squeezed from that grape.
I never mean to offend , I'm sorry if I was not clear enough in the presentaion of the subject.
avid
Time of day fares would create a nightmare. In many stations there would be large crowds waiting for the time when the fare went down. We would also get more complaints: "the turnstile took of X when it sahould have taken Y". Also there is the issue of differences in watches and the system time-- most stations have a time that is 3 minutes off the actual time --ie it will say 1030 when it is really 1033.
please--no time of day fares! they dont understand now and wont understand time of day. We have many riders who have difficulty using the system due to education level, new immigrants, elderly, set in their ways, etc.
[please--no time of day fares! they dont understand now and wont understand time of day. We have many riders who have difficulty using the system due to education level, new immigrants, elderly, set in their ways, etc.]
Those points are true, and in any event I'm not in favor of higher rush-hour fares, yet I must point out that the DC Metro seems to manage just fine with both distance-based and time-of-day fares. I certainly cannot imagine that Washington riders are better able to understand complex fares than are their New York counterparts.
EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING has peak hour pricing, except for the transit system. People are not as dumb as you think. Perhaps they just act dumb.
First of all, I don't think you could have a fare be $1.50 one second, and $2.00 the next. Otherwise, you will have those lines sub-buff talks about (others disagree). I think the fare should be stepped up and down a nickel every five minutes. It would be, say, $2.00 at the of peak hour and step down before and after.
Moreover, you can avoid the "but my watch says" complaints by having the turnstiles display the time. Each of them has or is hooked into a clock. It wouldn't take much to have the internal reading displayed.
I doubt the sea of humanity you predict, the sound on an approaching train might cause others to forgo the discount. The turnstiles I beleive are tuned to the ONE computer clock, so clock rules! I,ve seen many multi language posters, and I'm those who can't read any thing have friends or relatives to explain it for them.
avid.
Right. Just have each turnstile display the internal clock reading or place a large display of the internal clock time in each turnstile area.
The TA has been installing digital displays in a lot of stations that show date/time and messages. These clocks usually show times that are different from station to station and sometimes they are different in the SAME station.
Same in Philadelphia, at Olney Station. No important messages are ever shown there, but rather things like: don't walk into the track, you might get killed.
Looking at it another way, a substantial share of the cost of purchasing, maintaining, and operating the subway and bus fleets -- perhaps as much as 40 percent -- is required by rush hour travelers alone.
That's the "peak demand" theory. There's also an "efficiency" theory, which says that crush loadings at rush hour are gravy, since each additional person you can shoehorn in is "free" revenue. The Transit Commission in the 19th C. agreed with the latter. Off-peak fares were 10 cents, peak were 5 cents.
As the subway is operated today, I agree more with the latter theory. The "peak demand" theory would apply more if the density of riding on each train were about the same at all hours--e.g., a seat for every passenger, all seats filled.
Put it this way, if there were no rush hour peak, how much infratsructure could you get rid?
The so-called efficiency theory is flawed. Someone always pays. There are no free lunches. In the case of crush loading, it is the passenger who pays via increased discomfort and inconvenience. It's an example of what economists call an externality. Another example is the dumping of untreated factory effluent into a river, thereby lowering the apparent cost of the goods produced in the factory but actually shifting the cost away from the producer and consumer of the goods over to the rest of the population in the form of pollution. Of course, there is the difference between these examples that in the case of the passenger, he pays either way, whether by a higher fare to keep down the degree of crushing or by being crushed. The real question is what is our preference as to the form of payment.
For many years, London has had higher fares for travel before 09.30 including all-day passes. Certainly keeps the tourists out of the am rush-hour.
Sydney has a reduced return-fare ticket with a sizeable reduction after 09.00 - no doubt there are many others as precedents.
Most goods and services, in fact, have off peak prices. In residential neighborhoods in New York City, you get cheaper food at "lunch specials" since there is little cost in the occupancy of a seat that would otherwise be empty. In Lower Manhattan, in contrast, many restaurants have dinner specials. The commuter railroads have peak hour pricing.
One might as well argue that the MTA is using its monopoly to charge higher off peak prices to those who have no alternative to transit for all their trips, to reduce the fares of those riding at rush hour only. As I have said, on a net basis peak hour pricing benefits the working poor, because they are more likely to use the transit system off peak, possibly for work, certainly for other things.
No matter how you look at it you end up punishing people who have to be at work on time. Everyone would love the other guy to work staggered hours. I'd also bet that most of the 'working poor' ride the trains and buses during peak times. What I do expect to see is variable pricing on the bridges and tunnels. E-Z pass technology has the MTA, PA, NJ Turnpike, and GSP drooling over the po$$ibilities.
["Some of the privately owned buses actually do it."]
It's time for my bi-weekly clarification:
1. The seven NYC "private" carriers do not own the vast majority of the buses they operate. Those buses are owned by NYCDOT.
2. Responsibility for the service rests with NYCDOT.
3. The private carriers did not lower the off-peak fare. NYCDOT lowered the off-peak fare, as Rudy's gift to Queens.
4. The fares go into the city's general fund, not to the carriers. The carriers receive "management fees" consisting of their operating expenses plus a guaranteed profit margin. Operating expenses include bus operator and maintainer wages, office staff, liability settlements, campaign contributions, and "penalties" assessed by NYCDOT for lousy service. In other words, the more each company spends (and the worse the service is), the more each makes.
Do I understand this correctly? Operating expenses include the penalties for poor service? If all penalties are reimbursed, dollar for dollar, with some percentage profit margin tacked on for good measure, things are even more screwed up than I thought.
As for your first point, I should have said privately operated. I guess Rudy has more smarts than the MTA, although I'm not sure how hard that is.
Don't forget the campaign contributions, AND liability settlements. (People who get into accidents with DOT's buses tend to sue the companies, which settle and then charge the settlement to DOT as an expense. Instead, if you get into such an accident, sue the City.)
Basically, the companies make money simply by existing.
Okay , we are all in some sort of agreement.Now lets negociate.
1) The current price stays the same for a single fare token!
2) Various discount periods are created to lure riders to off peak
travel times to increase ridership during those times.
3) The more removed from peak riding time , factored by passenger
volume would determine the increase or lessen of the discounted
fare.
4) Economic, social, ethnic, religious, gender, and gastronomic
class or prefrence count for nothing.
5) Peak riders are not punished, they are just not rewarded. They
might , just might have a little more room and on time
performance.
6) Unlimited card holders would be rewarded with additional days
extension when the accumulated % = 2 full price fares.
Example , 2 rides during 20% discount time period + 6 rides
during the 10% time period + 3 rides during 25% time period + 3
rides during the 10% time would = 200% , 1 additional day and a
balance of 5% towards the next reward day.
7) To qualify, you must use the METROCARD so your balances can be
updated.
I have wondered about the proposed Urban Ring in Boston. Can anyone make a plan with actual stop locations? Personally, I don't see the point - some of the routings would include the very residential Cambridgeport, the Inner Belt industrial park, crossing the Charles River at a somewhat inconvenient spot, etc.
I've also looked at maps too much, and the strange results have included stop plans for a subway in Passaic/Paterson, commuter rail in Richmond, a portion of a belt line for the DC area, and a Staten Island Subway along Victory Road. (No, that last one does not include a tunnel to the Battery!) Would anyone like to see plans for these?
It's called Victory BOULEVARD.
I've been getting E-Mails from some of my colleagues on this Website bemoaning what they term censorship of what they are trying to write on Subtalk. I despise censorship and wish to see nothing of the kind, but it takes a full team to make this workable. I've seen too much nasty stuff going on for the past three weeks and it's time to put an end to this nonsense. There seems to be a lot of hostility out there. At first I was thinking it was nothing more that a Brighton Beach #1 Bob vs a Sea Beach #4 Fred type of thing, but it is certainly not that at all. People are taking real shots, and I detect a lot of racism on all sides creeping into it. I'm not holier than thou and don't want to make myself out to be, but I've grown very fond of this Website and the people on it and would not like to see it deteriorate into a free for all among warring camps. It's time to call a truce fellas and lets let cooler heads prevail. We can disagree without being disagreeable.
i have recieved racist e mails of the worst type possible from some SUBTALKERS !!
just ignore them !! they even hide behind false e mails ( blocked )........ i agree with you !!!
How do you know they came from Subtalk posters? If you can't prove it, don't make accusations. I've seen no public assault on your race, nor do I even care. Now, assaults on your character and mental abilities, those I've seen, and even participated in to some extent. But that's not racism.
-Hank
Here's a question for you real super smart railfans. When the Independent Subway System was completing it lines in the 30's, they built out into Brooklyn to Church Avenue and stopped. After that stop they were able to move on for a spell and then move to the opposite track for a return journey. Yet the fact is shortly beyond that point, there was an exit from the tunnel. Did the Independent build that entrance even though its trains did not leave the tunnel or was the tunnel entrance built by some other line? I was told thatthe Culver Line never entered this tunnel after Ditmas Avenue, so I'm left in a quandry. Any help out there?
The IND made the elevated connection to Ditmas Ave. via a tunnel portal and a gradual ramp up into the former Culver Line at the latter's turn onto McDonald Ave. by 37th Street.
I'm not sure if that answers your question.
Doug aka BMTman
Fred: Working from a couple of different sources I'll try to answer your question. As you know the IND reached Church Avenue in 1933. The terminal was built with both the upper and lower levels south of the station. The upper level did not at this time extend into the open. Talk of extending the line south onto the Culver El began in 1936 and sometime after unification work began. There are two photos in "Building the Independent Subway" dated to 1941 that show the portal being open and the ramp in place,also some steelwork accross McDonald Avenue is visible. Work was halted by World War II. I have blueprint drawings of the line dated to about the war years that show the upper level local tracks B1 and B2 as well as the express tracks B3 and B4 having temporary tie bumpers just north of the portals. The blueprint also shows the express tracks extending beyond the temporary bumpers to the end of the viaduct while the local tracks seem to extend beyond tne viaduct for some distance onto the el structure but short of connection to the Culver El. I cannot say for sure if track was actually laid out on the viaduct prior to 1954. Perhaps some of the Brooklyn folks (current residents or ex-patriots) have some knowledge of this.
Larry,RedbirdR33
My guess is that it was similar to 179th st Jamaica until the Culver "intrusion" was built. My question is why the Crosstown line doesn't terminate at Church Ave, since the terminal is there, and then express service could be restored to Park Slope. (Assuming Bergen tower is finished)
dave
(Why no express service, with G at Church).
Because a rider at 15th Street/Prospect Park (and other stations) heading for the center of Midtown would have to wait up to 10 minutes for a G (12 if not in rush hour), transfer to the A/C at Hoyt/Schemerhorn (an up down on some stairs), then transfer again at Jay Street. Note that the lower level of the Bergen St. station is unusable.
The only way for this to work equitably is for a substantial number of through trains in addition to the G to run local from Church. That would require an increase in trains overall. The TA doesn't have them, and the F is not crowded.
[the lower level of the Bergen St. station is unusable.]
Why is this? Can it be made usable again?
It could be, but there's little chance of that happening. Because of the design of the station - with the express tracks directly below the local tracks - people inbound to Manhattan would wait on the stairs to see which train was arriving first. Then they'd stampede to whichever platform had the next train. There was a substantial risk of injury as a result.
Additionally, the interlocking has been out of service since the fire a couple of years back.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sounds like the arrangement at 86th Street on the Lex. I've never seen anyone injured there.
The arrangement at 34th on the 1/2/3/9 and the A/C/E, and at Atlantic on the 2/3/4/5, is even worse, with much heavier volumes, and while I hate making that mad dash from one platform to another, I've never heard of serious injuries resulting.
That's because there is a more traditional express station located at the next stop at both Atlanic and Penn Station. The thought behind this design worked out perfectly: people have become "trained" to use this other station to x-fer between express and local.
Yes, of course, nobody transfers at 34th. Transferring isn't even an issue: if you specifically need the local, or you specifically need the express, you'll go straight to that platform and wait there.
But loads of people board at 34th, and that's where the chaos is. Many of them want to get on the first train that comes, be it local or be it express. (For anyone going to 42nd, to transfer to another train, it doesn't matter one bit which train they get at 34th.) So they wait on one platform, and if they see the other train enter the station, they make a mad dash to the other platform.
(Incidentally, this could all be avoided if the dwell time were increased slightly in those stations. The only reason everybody runs like the devil is that otherwise they're like to miss the train, and they know that all too well.)
When I went through Lower Bergen a couple of weeks ago, during a reroute, there were piles of building materials there, and it looked like a cinderblock wall was being built. --So I guess you're right, lower Bergen is _definitely_ unusable.
An interesting note was that the red home signal at the B2/B4 junction was wrapped with burlap, because the tower wiring still isn't finished.
Could you tell if the wall going to be alongside the platform or back against the wall of the station? Creating a `false wall' would mean the MTA is giving up completely on Bergen, while a new back wall (since the tiles have been removed from the original wall) could be part of a future attempt to restore the station.
The lower level at Bergen is quite usable, and the southbound platform was opened in 1994 during a 1994 GO. The lower level lacks wall tiles and flourescent lighting, but is certainly usable.
What's even stranger is that on an ERA trolley map reprinted in Greller and Watson's "Brooklyn Trolleys" a connection from the IND subway to the southbound Gravesend (McDonald) Avenue trolley is indicated. The map is hard to decipher but I think the notations indicate that the connection was either established or removed in 1938.
I think you're looking at trolley trackage on McDonald Ave. I don't see any subway connection.
On the map in question there is definitely a little diagram with "to IND subway" indicated.
On the map in question there is definitely a little diagram with "to IND subway" indicated.
OK, I see what you're talking about (I had to get out a loupe to read it). When the IND ramp was built the McDonald trolley trak had to be shifted to go around it. The map does show a 1938 connection. That wouldn't be the first trolley-rapid transit connection, but I didn't know about that one. I'll see if I can find any more about it.
Could that possibly have been S Bklyn RR tracks on MacDonald instead of trolley? I know the S.Bklyn had tracks on MacDonald but I'm not sure if it ran all the way to Church.
I think they paralleled the Culver elevated.
McDonald Av-37 St
The tracks on McDonald from Ditmas south were shared by the South Brooklyn and the 50-McDonald (earlier Gravesend) trolley. North of Ditmas, the McDonald trolley continued north on McDonald to 9th Ave, Depot while the South Brooklyn truned west, continuing under the Culver L.
Right, Paul.
SBK terminated at the water's edge over by 39th and 2nd Ave., via the shared West End Line tunnel at 4th Ave.
It's so sad that all that's left of original SBK trackage is the interchange yard, and the single-tracks crossing 2nd and 3rd Avenues to the tunnel portal. McDonald Ave. trackage is now a part of Brooklyn history.
Doug aka BMTman
But I think the tracks are still there buried under the asphalt.
The only place I think they were lifted was on the bridge over the LIRR Bay Ridge branch.
--Mark
A lot (I would guess "most") Brooklyn trolley trackage is still there, under the pavement.
The trolley system was abandoned so precipitously that they rarely bothered to take up trackage and barring major street rebuild, should be there.
Trolly tracks were visable along Jamaica Ave as recently as 10 years ago. During the time the outer portion of the Jamaica el was being demolished, the trolly rails were quite visable, and made for a bumpy bus ride.
Heck, they were still out there a couple of years back when I was driving in the area. The asphalt had worn through again - there were a couple of spots where you had to be very careful as the joints in the rail had suffered from frost heaves and rail ends pointed up threateningly at my tires.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The same holds true in many other cities which had streetcars. You can still see streetcar tracks in Chicago in many places, for instance. I remember seeing tracks along Jamaica Ave. just before the elevated structure swings onto it, as well as Myrtle Ave., Broadway, and Metropolitan Ave. in Brooklyn. Much of Denver's old trackage is still there as well. When Evans Ave. was being completely redone in concrete, work crews tearing out the old asphalt discovered streetcar tracks, which were removed. It even made the papers. The same thing happened when the intersection of Broadway and Colfax Ave. was rebuilt for Grand Prix racing a decade or so ago. You could still see the old tracks on Alameda Ave. where it ducks beneath the light rail line and remaining freight tracks before it was resurfaced.
I believe that westside McDonald Ave. tracks were joint trolley/SBK, while eastside (or northbound route) tracks were designated strictly for trolley running only.
Only after the demise of trolleys was the ROW devoted completely to SBK operations.
Doug aka BMTman
I believe that westside McDonald Ave. tracks were joint trolley/SBK, while eastside (or northbound route) tracks were designated strictly for trolley running only.
Why do you think so, Doug? I really doubt it. The McDonald cars ran all night, and SBK trains running NB on the SB track would have conflicted with SB trolley moves, not to mention car traffic.
Paul, I thought SBK would have been assigned to one track and "wrong-railed" going back north from Coney Isle (maybe I'm only going from memory since most of my McDonald shots of SBK depict equipment on the westside of the street).
I'd be interesting to find any original documents on SBK freight movements during it's heyday (1920's thru the 1960's).
Doug aka BMTman
In it's last days in the late 1970s the SBK did only use one track on McDonald probably because the other track had fallen into complete disrepair. As late as 1977 I remember the yellow diesel running under the elevated line. In 1978 the McDonald Ave reconstruction project eliminated the tracks at the LIRR overpass near Elmwood Avenue, and near Avenue X. But the then unusable tracks remained on McDonald Avenue until being paved over in 1991 or 1992.
Is there an old spur thats still visible on McDonald ave that goes into a building. been a while since i've been there.
I think that's paved over too. I believe that location is now an auto-repair shop (maybe it was back then too).
I also believe that Shoprite has eliminated or paved over the old LIRR-Bay Ridge spur tracks at Ave. I. Their customer parking is now on the old ROW.
Doug aka BMTman
As an aside (but relevant issue) I was told that when the Sea Beach line opened the BRT had to maintain freight service on it since it had been an excursion railroad at one time. They used the northernmost (Manhattan-bound) track for freight service, mostly at night when headways were long.
They would use a steeple cab electric locomotive and wrong rail down the inbound track while service was operating, backing into sidings to clear inbound trains.
Since freight cars were smaller then they fit through the 4th Ave subway and were picked up from the SBK. In some cases they wrapped the boxcars with chains and come-alongs to straighten up bowed sides and gain an extra inch or two of clearance in the tunnel!
This is of course all oral history....can anyone confirm it with documentation? Sadly, anyone who could remember this is probably long since perished.
There was freight service maintained on the Sea Beach. The SBK also did develop a "girdle" for sagging freight cars, which was used in the Culver Cut tunnel.
I don't know about feight cars in the Fourth Avenue Subway. I suppose it was technically possible, but I wonder about the reverse moves necessary to accomplish an SBK-4 Ave.-Sea Beach move. I would rather have expected freight to get to the Sea Beach via SBK-McDonald Ave.-Coney Island Yard-Sea Beach.
Of course, the Sea Beach anticipated keeping a connection to the Shore after subway operation (the two center tracks as the line approaches 4th Ave.) but I don't know how long that was maintained.
I agree with Paul. Under the Culver El was the South Brooklyn Railway trackage that handled dual mode, passenger & freight. There was no subway connection there.
Doug aka BMTman
I believe the SBK was linked to the Culver line by the 9th Ave station, as the line descended down to the lower level.
Thanks to all you guys out there who answered my Church Avenue question. I was confused by the upper and lower level descriptions but I got most of what I wanted. It's still hard to believe or even understand how the IND could build the tunnel exit leading out of Church Avenue to Ditmas Avenue and never utilize it. I do know that when the IND was built it was all underground for every line except the GG at Smith & 9th and the F there and at 4th Avenue.
The World's Fair spur ran at ground level, so it was also technically an outdoor route. Even so, it wasn't until D trains began operating over the Culver line to Coney Island that windshield wipers were installed on the R-1/9s.
The IND Brooklyn Line was situated in anticipation of "recapturing" the Culver Line, even if Unification hadn't taken place.
However, Unification put it on the front burner, but first there was WWII to think about. The Culver connection was given high priority after the War and the funds were appropriated with an anticipated open (IIRC) in 1951. They finally did it in 1954.
Eyes were also on the Fulton "el" where the "A" currently digs it way to the clean air in Queens on it's gallup to Lefferts, and the Rockaways.
avid
The anticipated extension of IND service over the Culver line to Coney Island was evident in the maps installed in just about every station in the system in 1947. These maps showed the Culver line as IND from Ditmas Ave. to Coney Island. They also showed the Astoria and Flushing lines as BMT and IRT only, respectively, the Queens Blvd line going to 179th St., and the IND Fulton St. line to Euclid Ave. These maps lasted until about 1960 in many stations, some even with the asterisk notes still attached from 1947 indicating that the above things were not yet running as shown.
Anyone know if any of these maps still exist? Is there one perhaps at the Transit Museum?
-- Ed Sachs
I had been told that the ramp to the Culver El was built many years before the actual track connection was made. Perhaps someone with firsthand observation/knowledge could verify this.....
I have read about the IND Phase II system. The track could have continued down 18th Ave and work toward Staten Island.
The 168 Street Washington Height terminal was to go over the GW bridge. I don't know how NY and NJ would have handled the funding during the 30's. Maybe that the reason why the lower deck of the GW took so long to finish (60's)
The 168 Street Washington Height terminal was to go over the GW bridge. I don't know how NY and NJ would have handled the funding during the 30's. Maybe that the reason why the lower deck of the GW took so long to finish (60's)
The lower level of the GW Bridge was originally designed for rapid transit trains. By the 60s, the mood of the times had shifted, so traffic lanes were built there instead.
-- Ed Sachs
The open area in the middle of the lower level of the GW Bridge is for train tracks. If the ever decide to put them in.
Peace,
Andee
Prior to the P.A. assuming operation of the then broke Hudson & Manhattan Rail Road, Thw Covanent beween the States of New Jersey and New York call for rail service for the lower portion of the George Wasington Bridge. The P.A. , in order to get permission to use the lower portion for vehecular traffic had the Covanent Changed ,but had to assume responsibility and operation of the P.A.T.H.
This change was made and ratified by both Legislatures of each state.
So it is said, so it is written, so it shall be.
There went the rails on G.W.B. and here came Traffic.
avid
No, the covenant was changed so the PA could build the Trade Center.
-Hank
I do believe the reason the Port Authority took over control of the bankrupt H&M lines was to acquire the prime real estate it's lower Manhattan railway yards occupied, to build the World Trade Center.
That smells right, Capitalism at work, other peoples money.
There were never any railroad yards downtown. The terminal was just like now, just shallower and shorter. There were more platforms but they were narrower. There were the same number of tracks and they opened up similarly.
Jeff,
If two BU's were coupled together by their original Van Dorn Couplers, how much space would there be between the two cars? I am talking about the space between the anticlimbers at the center of the end of each car. This would be the area that the gateman would straddle, when he would open the car's gates at a station. I said that I thought it would be six inches or less but I have been told that I am all wrong.
Can you help with this question?
With the Van Dorn couplers the link pin is completely swallowed
up when coupled and the faces of the couplers touch. The coupler
faces overhang the end of the anti-climber by maybe 6=3 inches
tops, so that's a total of at most 6 inches between anti-climbers
Thank You very much! I thought I remembered that correctly.
Is the railroad lift bridge that crosses the Kill Van Kull between Staten Island and Elizabeth, NJ still in use today ? If so by which carrier and how often ?
It is being renovated for freight rail traffic as part of Staten Island's North Shore rail line. A dispute with Union County, NJ has delayed work on the NJ end of the line from the lift bridge to the Cranford Junction.
It's not in use, but is supposed to be. They test it about once a month or so. The bridge (known as AK, and also (allegedly) the world's longest vertical lift span) was fully rehabbed 2 years ago, along with the North Shore Line as far as South Ave, and the West Shore line to Travis. Unfortunately, Union County, NJ is holding up the rehab of the connecting line in NJ, because they don't believe they'll see a local benefit.
Of course, they're also fighting a twinning of the Goethals Bridge, because it may bring more trucks through town.
-Hank
(NJ fighting transportation links that benefit New York)
Those who favor a rail tunnel to Brooklyn need to understand that NJ would block that too, just to screw New York. They haven't bothered because at this point its just a pipedream.
Gee and I thought that that kind of turf war was exclusive to the Midwest where the suburbs that want to act like they are the central city and will do anything to tic off the Central City, whether it is good for the suburb or not. I guess there is enough of it to go around for everyone.
I personally would like to see one of these old time tourist railroad operations such as the Essex Valley RR in Connecticut or the Strassburg RR. in Pennsylvania start an operation over this bridge, using vintage steam locomotives and passenger cars. I think it would benefit folks on both sides of the bridge. The scenery is certainly good and the bridge itself is spectacular enough to rival the Kinzua Viaduct in north-western Pennsylvania.
The scenery is certainly good and the bridge itself is spectacular enough to rival the Kinzua Viaduct in north-western Pennsylvania.
Are you talking about the Bayway Oil Refinery?
Thus, one of several problems with the concept of putting a RR museum with steam trips in this area: To get anywhere with nice scenery a train would have to travel an hour first. Besides, the Kinzua Bridge is higher and the ROW is coming out of a forest.
I was referring to the container ship terminal at Port Elizabeth. I think that it beats the boring scenery of a closed in forest.
KING SOLOMON
Port Elizabeth might look interesting, but I don't think most people would consider it to be nice scenery, and the view from the CNJ Newark branch tracks wouldn't be any better than from the NJ Turnpike. And should a train go in that direction where would it go from there?
Well Port Elizabeth has all those Evergreen (TM) containers. That's kinda like a forrest.
I have been on many of the old Steam Train and Trolley tourist attractions in the eastern US. The scenery on many of them is not anything to write home about. The main attraction is the vintage equipment itself. The AK Bridge itself crossing the water is no less boring than the ride through the RR yards at Steamtown USA or the trackage that the trolleys run on at Branford. The idea is to take an unused portion of track and convert it to something that would be a fun thing without having to drive 2 hours to get to it.
But, it is also necessary to draw people from other parts of the country. Hard core rail fans would, of course, ride anything on rails. Would the casual tourist go on a trip through an industrial area? Some of the more popular rail attractions such as the Strasburg RR and the Great Smokey Mountain RR draw many people from the latter group.
Casual tourists from other parts of the country such as rural areas where the Great Smokey Mtn. RR are located come to this area to see something different from where they live. Urban and industrial sprawl is something new to them. We see it every day so it bores us. Same with them for mountains and forest. Also, everyone will want to try a new attraction at least once, regardless of the scenery, and we do have many first time visitors coming to NYC; both from other parts of the USA and from abroad.
That's an interesting thought concerning tourists wanting to see urban and industrial sprawl. I think we need a survey to determine if it is true for a tourist railroad as it would be for people wanting to view urban sprawl as they visit the city itself.
It falls under the catagory of 20th Century decatant industrial Art.
It can be found through out the Rust Belt.
avid
That's like the sugestion in Roger & Me (just saw it) to build a Chemical World in New Jersey.
You find it amazing that Union Co residents are against the twinning? Most of our fellow Islanders are also against it, and for the same reason - they do not perceive any benefit from it.
(Staten Islanders don't want Goethals Twinned)
Staten Island doesn't want the Goethals twinned, and the Staten Island expressway widened, because many of the benefits would accrue to through traffic heading for Brooklyn, Queens, and Long Island.
Similarly, many Sunset Park residents (and the Transportation Alternatives Crowd) want the Gowanus Expressway abandoned, rather than repaired, because all it does it make it easier for Staten Islanders to get to Manhattan, with no benefit for much of Brooklyn. The $20 billion Gowanus tunnel is a red herring to derail the whole thing.
Question -- in the interest of fairness, shouldn't the decision be the same? And don't say the Gowanus is "already there." It WAS there, but has now deteriorated and must be replaced. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Let me make sure I understand. The people living in Sunset Park want to see the Gowanus Expressway go away, because it makes it easier for SIers to get to Manhattan and has no impact for most of Brooklyn? Picture tomorrow what would happen if the entire elevated section of the Gowanus - from the 65th St Exit to the BQE/ Battery Tunnel split - were to disappear. Frightening, isn't it? Traffic would never move in Sunset Park again. SIers would go to Manhattan via New Jersey (like before the VN. But would happen to all the people who live in the Brooklyn shore communities that rely on the Belt Parkway? They're crawling through the streets of Sunset Park, looking for some way out.
At this point in time, the Gowanus is an established route that too many people depend on. It cannot be made to disappear into the night. Twinning the Goethals, however, will serve to increase traffic (you remember, build the bridges and traffic will increase to fill the capacity) along the SIE, the VN and the Gowanus. Unfortunately, none of those roadways are capable of dealing with the increased volume. Therefore, WHY DO IT?
...Picture tomorrow what would happen if the entire elevated section of the Gowanus - from the 65th St Exit to the BQE/ Battery Tunnel split - were to disappear.
And they got their 3rd-5th Ave El back too? You mean they would have an alternate means of getting into town without have to share the train with the rif-raff from Coney Island or they wouldn't be subject to Manhattan Bridge delays? Better not make it too attractive or they would be likely to take blow torches to the Gowanus and start tearing it down themselves.
It's not only Staten Islanders using the Gowanus. The stream of traffic every morning and evening on the Belt Pkwy is comprised of mostly Brooklynites. Like it or not the Gowanus is an interstate highway. Most of the truck traffic folks in Sunset Park and Brooklyn Heights are so upset about is bound for Brooklyn and Manhattan. Staten Islanders don't benefit from the crush of trucks on the SIE but that comes with any interstate highway. The Goethals should be twinned even if the benefit is minimal. The SIE (and the West Shore Expwy) should have a fourth lane added. They will max out at that point but at least will improve the flow of traffic somewhat. Nothing is perfect. There are twice as as many vehicles on S.I. now than there were 10 years ago. You're not going to make them go away by not improving the highway and bridge infrastructure.
I guess I didn't set off your sarcasm detector.
They oppose the road bridge because it will bring more trucks. Yet they oppose the rail line, which will reduce the trucks (or just make more room on the existing bridge for the same number of trucks removed...)
They don't see the 'local benefit' of the rail line. They want more local business served by the rail line (which passes plenty of businesses that are already well served)
Personally, I feel they need to twin the bridge, simply because it's overcapacity for the existing traffic. A second 3-lane bridge (and the subsequent rehab of the existing bridge to 3 lanes) would most likely barely accomodate the existing traffic. The additional provision on the bridge for a real bike/pedway and an LRT are additional benefits that could be put to good use. The availability of public transit over the bridge will immediately open up industrial jobs on the chemical coast that can be easily had by unskilled workers, something the city definately lacks. It can also provide a connection with the planned Newark/Elizabeth LRT to connect with the now-rebuilding Newark (and it's shopping meccas of Ikea and Jersey Gardens, and possible Nets/Devils arena)
Oh, and the little kid in me really wants to see how a real bridge is built.
-Hank
Everyone on this thread gets a penalty point: The bridge spans Arthur Kill between Staten Island and Elizabeth. Kill Van Kull is between S.I. and Bayonne.
He's right. The K van K is spanned by the Bayonne Bridge. The longest steel arch bridge in the world for many years. At 1,652 feet it beat the Sydney Harbour bridge by 2 feet. Today its #2, however don't feel sad because the title is still in the USA. The New River Gourge bridge in W.VA beat it with a solid 1,700 feet.
On a venture on a 47 bus today, I noticed that straps are now tied to the standing poles that go horizontally across the bus. In my opintion, this is great, because holding onto a strap is better than holding onto a horizontal pole. What do you people think?
In NYC on city buses and on redbirds as well as on Path there are straps as well. Shorter people like me really benefit from straps, as they are slightly lower than the bar. They also prevent your hand from touching someone else's.
Not always. On a crowded Redbird 2, 5, 6 or 7 train, it's very likely that you could be sharing a strap with one, maybe two other people. But they should still keep the straps if they work for shorter people.
Straps are rediculous, they swing back and forth, I might as well not hold on to anything to begin with. Then there's the matter of the finite number of straps, and that they don't lend themselves to sliding so another person can fit in wherever.
DOWN WITH STRAPS!
And the Straphangers Campaign are morons, so if they lose their namesake, to hell with them.
Shoot, I liked the little square straps the R12, R14 and R15 had (and the R131 HAS)- the kind you can just about fit your fist into. Great for doing pullups and bar climbs.
Personally, out of today's handholds, I like the R38's Curly Bars. Short people like myself can wrap an arm around them while standing by the door. And they're lower over the seats (slightly) than their counterparts.
Wayne
I'm not sure they're coming inasmuch as they've been here for a while. A number of Neoplan buses got them over the past couple of years. I'm not sure why. It appeared that most of them were concentrated at Southern and Comly depots (and 47 works half out of Southern), although with all the shuffling of the roster and reassignment of routes lately, they could be anywhere.
Personally, I liked them only because SEPTA has a bad habit of not keeping the bars clean. I find them grimy very often.
This morning at around 9:30 going to get parts at gunhill depot passing overpass at #5 line gunhill station Seen my first sighting of R142s coming into gunhill station from dyre ave. Useually look for them on #2 line never heard of any testing on other lines
Sunday am (3/26/00) I saw the R142 heading South (Towards Brooklyn) on the A Line at broadway-Nassau.
The R142 has always been tested on the Dyre Avenue Branch, I've seen a Five car set of the Bombardier R142s come of the White Plains Branch only once and this is when they were moving them from 239th to 180th Yard!
Trevor Logan
The A line is not the Dyre Line!
That wasn't a testing, they probably was trying to bring her to the Coney Island Yard, which could be done via the A line to the F at Jay Street then out to Coney Island OR to that new track that they are building out on the Rockaways, even though I heard that track was supposed to be for the R143 testing!
OH BOY!
Trevor
does anybody know exactly when they are going into passenger service?
please reply
When the testing is finished, they will go in passenger service for a certain amount of time on a trial basis. If something goes wrong, they will reset the clock.
If testing period goes as planned you should start seeing them in service in spring or summertime 2001
On Transit Transit news magazine, Andy said that they will require testing. They plan to try them this summer, but I cannot promise anything. Neither can the TA.
anybody got some rocks?
I want them 142's to smell what the rock is cookin'!!
Figures.
-Hank
I may be attending a conference in Concord/Manchester NH area next week. I forgot the name of the Trolley Museum in Maine. Could someone please tell me the name(I think it is the Seashore Museum) and how far up I 95 is it from the State Line. Would appreciate it
It is the Seashore Trolley Museum. Take Exit 3 off the Maine Turnpike which is also I-95. Go east through the town of Kennebunk towards Kennebunkport. It is on Log Cabin Rd. (North St.) about 3 and a half miles before you come into Kennebunkport. It is approximately 23 miles north of the New Hampshire state line.
Thanks I found their web site and e mailed them for their schedule
I still have not heard from anyone at Seashore Museuam, does anyone know if they will be open on Saturday April 8th
On Saturday April 8, we will be doing requalifications of returning
operators. We are not open to the public until May.
But if you come in and ask for me, I'll see if I can take you out
on a car inbetween instruction trips.
Todd I Look forward to meeting you on the 8th. Aloha Bob
We're not open to the public until May. However if you stop by I'm sure one of our staff will let you look around. Over the next few weekends we are doing our operator training/requalification, so you might find an Instructor willing to take you out on a ride.
Thanks Todd, I will try to make it if it does not rain. I will be so close in Manchester NH, that I hope it will make my day worthwhile. After all I am coming all the way from Hawaii.
Are the LIRR, AMTRAK & NJT tracks at Penn Station all inter-connected somehow even though they are in different parts of the station ? Do AMTRAK & LIRR trains share the same tunnels and tracks under the East River ?
They share the same tunnels and some of the tracks. The mid number
tracks are sometimes share by both agencies.
The line to NJ is amazing. Almost all of the 21 tracks merge into two. The two then enter the tunnel and make up part of the NE Corridor.
The other spurs lead to storage tracks, the Amtrak Empire Line, and the LIRR Westside storage yard. The track for the Empire Line is located on the North most portion of the station. After leaving, it makes a sharp turn north. How 85 foot cars turn in that tight space, I don't know.
track 1-4 dead end at penn station. they are njt for the most part.
If the LIRR & AMTRAK share the same tracks going into Queens and LI, would it not make sense for AMTRAK to start some of their long distance trains, the Florida ones in particular out in Nassau or Suffolk counties. I think it would increase ridership and compete successfully with the bus lines. Greyhound, Short Line & Adirondack now have direct service from Nassau & Suffolk, Why not AMTRAK ?
I'd love to see the AEM-7's and E60's try run on on 600 VDC 3rd rail. Besided the LIRR isn't even a NORAC member and the cross qualifycation would be a pain, not to mention the different CSS.
Couldn't they use diesel for the trains that would potentialy run on both systems ? I am a novice on this point. Please educate me.
Well they could, but it would be difficult. First of all there are no P40/42's east of Philly. Only F40's and P32's. Because of their low they would need at least 2 engines to make any speed. The F40's are out because of exaust fumes and I don't think that Amtrak has enough P32's for LIRR shuttle service. Furthermore you would need to preform a power change inside Penn Station its self and because the tunnles are already near capasity there is little room for lite engine moves. Finally the LIRR uses slightly different signal rules and engineers would have to cross qualify. Not to mention that the Cab Signaling System on the LIRR is different.
Then there's a scheduling problem. It takes longer to load long distance trains because entrances are only at the vestibules. Baggage will be a problem because LIRR stations aren't going to handle Amtrak checked baggage.
I don't think Amtrak long distance trains will operate on the LIRR.
Michael
Washington,DC
The LIRR used to offer direct Parlor car service from LI to Washington DC in conjunction with the PRR.
That was way back when the LIRR was owned by the PRR, and a lot of equipment was interchangeable
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Daniel Convissor's Web Site: Getting More Capacity from Penn Station New York (http://www.panix.com/%7Edanielc/nyc/pennsta.htm) can maybe help answer some questions you have. Also the following interlocking diagrams are also quite helpful:
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/nyp.gif
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/kn.gif
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/cnyc.gif
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/f.gif
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/r.gif
The real neat part about Penn Station is the bit from LI City to the jct. with the New York Connecting Railraod. Amtrak and NJT use the southern 2 track tunnel and the LIAR uses the northern 2 track tunnel. Somewhere right before the LI City portals the center 2 tunnels cross over each other so that the eastbound and westbound (one Amt one LIAR each) come out on the correst side of things. Its like a flying junction COMPLETELY UNDERGROUND. In a reply I will post the complete diagram for Penn Station. Its 200k, but well worth it so be warned. You can learn all kinds of things from it like Penn Station had 5 yards!
m
All this is underground? The ability to build all that under buildings is simply amazing to me.
The whole thing takes up three blocks, I want to know the length of all of this. What is the distance between avenues in Manhattan?
It's *huge*
Also remember, most of those buildings weren't really in the way when this was built.
Penn is nothing, you should see GCT, it's 2 levels and a LOT more complicated!!!
A second thanks for posting the chart. This morning my 7:46 out of Wantagh followed another LIRR train into Line 2 (the westbound "PRR" tunnel) shortly after we lost the lighting in our car. Without the lighting, we had a good view of the tunnel ahead: appearing neatly built, well-maintained, good ballast, good welded rail, two slight curves. Line 2 heads straight for station track 12. Our leader went in on track 13, then crossed over to the West Side Yard. We took track 14.
Is there a track map of Grand Central Terminal on the net? Also, any track maps of Long Island Railroad, Metro North, PATH west of Grove Street?
I can give you charts of HACK, DOCK, HUDSON and WALDO which pretty much comprise the PATH trackage above ground.
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/dock.gif
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/hack.gif
http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/waldo.gif
The distance from the center line of one avenue to the next is approximately one fifth of that silly non-metric long distance measurement.
And all of this was merely built in a hole, the buildings were added later, the space between 9th and 10th Avenues is still a hole (no building).
[I want to know the length of all of this.]
The length is a little more than 3400 feet. The tick marks with the numbers is similar to the chaining system in the subway (there are signs on the walls and columns trackside that say for example D1 1677+50) Each number to the left of the + is in hundreds of feet. To the right of the +, individual feet. Since I don't know where the zero point is on this map, I can't give you that information.
[What is the distance between avenues in Manhattan?]
According to the map, about 900 feet
Recently I took a train out of Penn Station to Hudson on the Albany Line, now could someone please tell me from the diagram which platform/track we may used to get out of Penn Station?
I believe that connection was put into the former west side freight lines about 8 years ago.
Thanks,
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
Also, I notice there's two tunnels leading out of the station towards the east, one under 33rd Street and another under 32nd Street. Am I correct in assuming that both these tunnels head under the East River into Queens, the north one used by LIRR and the south one used by Amtrak?
Thanks...
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
That's sort of a SubTalk tradition.
-- David
Philadelphia, PA
An underground flying junction isn't all that unusual. The subway is full of they, mostly on the IND. It IS unusual for a class 1, however.
Among other junctions:
145st/CPW
Columbus Circle
Rockerfeller Center
-Hank
[An underground flying junction isn't all that unusual. The subway is full of they, mostly on the IND. It IS unusual for a class 1, however.
Among other junctions:
145st/CPW
Columbus Circle
Rockerfeller Center
-Hank]
Speaking of which, does anybody know where on the southern end the lower level track from the 42nd Street IND station comes to the surface? Here's my crazy idea:
Knock down the wall of the lower level of the 42nd Street IND station and Y the #7 to that track
Run some #7's to 33rd St., where they would connect to Penn Station's Track 21 and go on to the Javits Center through the yard.
Don't know how far you'd have to tunnel, though.
The only problem is that the PATH and Track 21 are both FRA railroads. Although in my opinion the subway would be better if run as a railroad.
[The only problem is that the PATH and Track 21 are both FRA railroads. Although in my opinion the subway would be better if run as a railroad.]
Seems to me the ideal solution here would be to isolate track 21 from the RR operation and remove it from FRA jurisdiction.
I'm not sure about the utility of combining PATH and the #7 in the first place. If PATH were further west it would be a no brainer. If you brought it into the shuttle tracks via the BMT, most of the trackage would be independent. Either way, PATH's status has a lot more to do with bureaucratic turf than sense at this point; if it became practical, feasible, and desireable to merge the systems, I'm sure a solution could be found as it has in the past.
Excellent maps! Thanks.
Now, does anyone know if there's a GCT map on line?
Yes they are. I remember once during rush hour the LIRR announced a Ronkonkoma train on track 14, which was the same track that Amtrak had announced for a Metroliner. The platform train indicators all said Ronkonkoma, and there was a train of Amfleets led by an AEM7 sitting in the station. Most LIRR customers knew to wait, but I bet a few tourists may have ended up in Newark!
Don't forget, all these railroads were once operated or controlled by the same company... the Pennsy RR (The P Company)
I assume that you mean that the routes served by NJT and Amtrak were formerly served by the PRR. Even so, you are forgetting that NY Penn Sta now also serves trains from routes that were never part of the PRR, all of the "Mid-town Direct" service is from former DLW terrotory.
The AK bridge is said to have the longest vertical life span in the world?
Anyone know the distence?
I am planning to go on the tour Mark W. is hosting two weeks from now.
Yes, it does have the longest VL span in the world. 598 feet if my memory serves me right. I am also a big bridge and tunnel fan and I check them off in my Almanic when I drive over one of the "notable bridges".
What about the railroad bridge (now unused) that crosses the Hudson at Poughkeepsie. That is also a very impressive structure. How does it compare with AK ?
Well that is a different type (some sort of truss (continuous?)) and the notable bridges are ranked by class and I don't think the Big Bridge made the list (although most of the highway bridges from NYC to Albany DID make the list). I think that the tall beidge would have spans c. 500 feet each. What really makes it cool it its hieght, but that dosen't count.
Where is this list?
In any World Almanac(TM). Look around Page 760 or 660. Its between US City information and Country Information. Right after the notable US buildings. I don't have my 1998 edition with me, but I remember parts of the list.
For a postcard view of the Poughkeepsie Bridge, click here.
I'll be scanning another, older view later today and will follow up with a link to that one when I get it out there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was at LIC observing the operations this afternoon and noticed something strange. At 3:45pm, a M3 or M4 ( I not sure which one ) was heading into LIC with both headlights and red markers on. As the trainset moved further into the station, the end cars had the same lights on. Two minutes later, a switcher loco was hauling a dead bi-level loco ( #412 ) towards Hunterpoint Ave. Three minutes later a full trainset of bi-level heading towards Hunterpoint with the same lights configuration.
Is this to advised the crew and other trains that a disable train is making a unscheduled run?
It used to be if a train displayed both headlights AND red markers on the front, it was NOT stopping at Jamaica. I don't know if they still use that "signal" though.
[It used to be if a train displayed both headlights AND red markers on the front, it was NOT stopping at Jamaica. I don't know if they still use that "signal" though.]
Not anymore. Today it generally indicates that the train is operating with fewer than its usual number of cars.
Both sets of lights on only indicates a train operating with fewer cars during the AM rush on westbound trains.
Does the third rail extend from Hunterspoint Ave into the LIC yards so that the electrics can go in there. The few times I've gone in/out of LIC there were low level platforms and you had to climb up into the old stinky diesels. Have things changed in the last two years? Or is the third rail only to shuttle M3-4's in and out of LIC?
The third ral does indeed go into Long Island City, but as you suggest, it is only for shuttling trains in/out, with Hunterspoinrt Avenue being their "terminal".
There are a few tracks on the south side of LIC yard that have third rail. Funny thing is, years ago, in some older photographs, the tracks with the thid rail were the northernmost tracks in the yard; for many years there was NO third rail, and when LIC yard was electrified again, the south tracks got the third rail!
Thanks guys for the information. Your answers have been most helpful.
I'm not sure if the northermost tracks are electrified, but the southern part is. That's where the M-3 or M-4 sat. I'll have to look
into this next time.
An M-4 is a New Haven MU. You probably mean M-1 or M-3.
I'm not sure myself which series of M-class train are at LIC. Are the M-1 retired from service?
No, all the M class cars are still around:
M-1: LIRR and MN MUs (third rail only, Metropolitan)
M-2: New Haven MU (third rail and catenary, Cosmopolitan)
M-3: Metropolitan
M-4: Cosmopolitan
M-5: Does not exist
M-6: Cosmopolitan
M-7: New Metropolitan for both MN and LIRR, delivery in 2001 or 2002.
Thanks for the detail answer. I'm curious to see what the M-7 are going to look like. But of course, that won't be until 2001 or 2002.
[The third ral does indeed go into Long Island City, but as you suggest, it is only for shuttling trains in/out, with Hunterspoinrt Avenue being their "terminal".
There are a few tracks on the south side of LIC yard that have third rail.]
LIC has only one small high-level platform, and it's located on a middle track without a third rail. As a result, electric trains cannot operate in revenue service to or from LIC.
I would think that they couldn't have third rails on the north side as passengers coming from the Vernon/Jackson Station enter on the north side and walk through the yard to their trains. It would be too dangerous if they had to cross the third rail.
Photos of the third rail on the north side can be seen on page 10 of "Electric Heritage of the LIRR".
The photo was taken in 1932, and the northernmost three tracks were
third-rail equipped. The yard was also fenced in this photo, so the only access would have been at the bumpers. Between tracks 1 and 2 on the north side, there was a station platform (low level) which had a canopy running its entire length. (There also appears to be platforms with NO canopies between track 3-4, 5-6, and 7-8 in this photo.)
Captioning of this photo indicates that the third rail on tracks 1-2-3 was removed after DD-1 trains were discontinued (that would be 1951), "...only to be restored for the initial M-1 service to and from Huntington...."
03/29/2000
I was at LIC observing the operations this afternoon and noticed something strange. At 3:45pm, a M3 or M4 ( I not sure which one
M-4's are identified with a light red stripe on their sides and run on Metro North territory.The ex-New Haven RR catenary electried lines to be exact.
Bill Newkirk
In the R33/36 photo pages on this site, there is a picture of a train of R33's in a rail yard in Pennsylvania. Does anyone know just what exactly they were doing there? (Here's the picture: http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r3336/r33-penn.jpg )
Those R33's were on there way to the the NYCTA to be delivered, from
there builder the ST. LOUIS CAR CO. in 1962.
Back in those days, new cars would be delivered on their own wheels. The TA had (and may still have)Gondola cars with standard MCB (knuckle) couplers and air brake hoses on one end and OB couplers on the other. They would be sent to the car builder's shop and put on each end of a cut of cars. Then the string would be handled as ordinary rail equipment until arrival in NYC.
One of the old-timers should know when this practice was ended.
The gons were leased by the TA. They didn't own them nor had them.
Who were they leased from? The PRR and other railroads were not really interested in keeping/maintaining oddball equipment (OB couplers), so it stood to reason that the cars were the TA's. Perhaps they were St.Louis Car's.
Again, check the R32 photos, specifically 3700 or 3701. You'll see that the coupler conversion gondolas with them belonged to Norfolk & Western.
And yes, Pennsylvania did have at least a pair of them too, as I recall seeing PATH cars being delivered behind a GG-1 somewhere on PRR's four-track main that was NOT near PATH tracks. No third rail anywhere.
Most of the time, these coupler conversion gondolas were old, beat up, and the floors were rotting through (at least the N&W ones in San Bernardino, California, with 3700-3701 were -- I climbed up into them!) There would be enough back-and-forth train movements between the builder and NYCTA that the railroads could justify having one pait of gondolas for the moves. The subway cars would be handled as regular rail equipment -- however as SPECIAL rail equipment and the builder would have to pay a premium rate to get them moved on the railroads.
Once the practice of rolling NYCTA cars to New York on their own wheels stopped, and the new deliveries would come on flatcars, regular by-weight freight rates were probably charged.
Correct. If you look through the R-32 photos, you'll see shots of TA 3700-3701 in San Bernardino, California. They were coupled to Norfolk & Western coupler converson gondolas.
I've also seen Pennsylvania Railroad coupler conversion gons.
That yard was in the area around Allentown. The cars were on their way from St. Louis Car Company to New York City.
I was 12 years old when I took that photo!!!!
What happening, encounter or incident in transit do you remember first, ahead of everything else?
Mine is:
In late '75 I had to make a connection to the L from the R at Union Square (well, the LL and RR in those days) and it was my first ride on the Canarsie Line.
I got to the platform, saw the train coming in and couldn't believe my eyes: what must have been an ancient Triplex, with olive green paint job, white trim on the straps, bare incandescent bulbs, ceiling fans, woop woop woop noise when the train stopped, the whole 9 yards. I don't remember wicker seats or gray plastiic.
But in '75, I thought these cars had been retired long ago; I had been riding only the R from the early 1960s on, and hadn't sampled the other lines. I thought those dinos on the LL had long since extincted. Of course that was the last time I saw one of 'em alive, except on fantrips.
--What immediately replaced them on the L after '75? Anyone else have a defining moment like that?
www.forgotten-ny.com
yea like those good ol r 1 thru r 9 s !!
There were no Triplexes in '75! It was an R7 or R9 (or R7A or R9A).
Since I began riding very young, I 'discovered' a lot of railfanning 'on my own'--i.e., before I knew about the ERA and could be told about them.
There were a lot of great moments of discovery, like when I was in Newark Penn Station and saw a sign for 'City Subway' and went to see what that might be...
I think the one moment that stands out was when I took my first ride on an R-16 on the J (then 15-Jamaica Express), 2/57, and got to Myrtle Avenue. I looked up and saw a BU train. I ran like the dickens to catch it. I was afraid if I let it get away I'd never see it again.
Paul,I can empathize with that experience; mine was very similar although a few years later. In the 1960's as a highschool kid, I discovered the R16 on the Jamaica line at Eesex St. Someone, way back then, had a transistor radio, remember those? It was playing "Washington Square". I always associate that song now with that R16 experience. When I got to Myrtle, I saw the Q's up on top. That was a trip back in time.
Joe Caronetti
I didn't much care for the Qs because riding inside was not nearly as nice as riding outside, no bells, no gates, no breeze in summer. When the Qs were first put on the line, they were described as former 3rd Ave. el cars. It wasn't until later that I realized they were really BMT/BRT cars.
Those transistor radios were terrible. Like the dog walking on his hind legs, the appeal wasn't that they worked well, but that those little things worked at all. It's hard to imagine now, but in the '50s and '60s, "Made in Japan" was synonymous with "junk" and those transistor radios were a big reason why.
I have a feeling I'm about to have an "Oh, right, of course!" moment here, but what's "ERA"?
Electric Railfan Association, IIRC. (I stand corrected if that didn't come out right.)
Or Earned Run Average, if you're a baseball fan.-)
First one wrong.
Second one correct.
ERA, in our interests, is the Electric Railroaders' Association.
P. O. Box 3323, New York, NY 10163-3323
Thanks. As I said, I stand corrected.
Equal Rights Amendment.
And, in our grou interest -- Electric Railroaders' Association.
Is that electric as in models, electric as in a train that derives its power from an outside source or in the tradition of the Electric Boat Co., any train that uses an electric transmission of power to the wheels (diesel and steam electrics included)
The ERA concerns itself with railroads that draw power from an outside source.
Main Entry: era
Pronunciation: 'ir-&, 'er-&, 'E-r&
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin aera, from Latin, counters, plural of aer-, aes copper, money -- more at ORE
Date: 1615
1 a : a fixed point in time from which a series of years is reckoned b : a memorable or important date or event; especially : one that begins a new period in the history of a person or thing
2 : a system of chronological notation computed from a given date as basis
3 a : a period identified by some prominent figure or characteristic feature b : a stage in development (as of a person or thing) c : a large division of geologic time usually shorter than an eon <Paleozoic era>
synonym see PERIOD
Main Entry: ERA
Function: abbreviation
earned run average, Equal Rights Amendment
Also, a real estate company and a detergent.
ERA = an organization of railfans devoted to watching slideshows of various rapid transit equipment while making air-compressor noises -- or more likely passing wind or belching.
Bad hygeine and horrible fashion sense is also a requisite.
Actually, I am being too hard on that group, but there IS alot of truth to the above.
Doug aka BMTman
Equal Rights Amendment- A legislative movement several years ago to give women the same rights as men.
If the ERA is concerned with electric railroads why did they run the LIRR fan trip on a diesel train last fall?
While our primary concern is ELECTRIC railroads, we are interested in all mass transit. In the case of the New York Division, our focus is on mass transit in the New York City metropolitan area. The LIRR certainly qualifies in that regard. Besides, the diesel-hauled coaches we chartered were formerly electrified!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
David, also made a very fine slide show presentation several months ago of the many ERA trips that he had attended in NY. The compressor & door sounds not withstanding I enjoyed it very much. They meet ususally the 3rd Fri of each month at the College of Insurance and also sponcer "Field Trips", e.g. I was able to tag along on one to Coney Island in May of 1999 that was my first exposure to ERA. I saved my "ticket" "Good for One Fare".
Mr t__:^)
Please note the ERA is a national organization. The Local NY Division is affiliated with the national organization. Both organization share the same office space (GCT). The NY Division uses a PO Box at the Church Street Post Office (a carry over when the ERA National and Division was at 145 Greenwich Street) while the national organization uses the Grand Central Post Office for their mailing address.
The local division is more active than the national, as it offers monthly shows, trips and tours from the NY area as well as a monthly publication that is rich in NY Transit history and the latest commuter/transit news. The national organization has their convention and glossy publication "Headlights" which is published when the all volunteer staff has the material to publish something.
You DO NOT have to became a member of the national to become a division member. $30.00 per year (which comes to $2.50 per month) is a good investment since you get the publication and free admision to the meetings ($5.00 at the door).
I have been a member since 1967, it's worth joining.
And now we go to Davis Ross for membership information. Take it away Dave.......
I have nothing to say :-)
As Phil said, it's $30 per year, which gets you 12 issues of our magazine, The Bulletin, and admission to the membership meetings, which are usually held on the third Friday of the month at the College of Insurance, 109 Murray Street in Manhattan (doors open at 6:15 PM, meeting starts at 7:15). The April meeting will be held on the second Friday, April 14, due to religious holidays on the following Friday.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
The New York Division's mailing address is:
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
PO Box 3001
New York NY 10008-3001
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
I am a proud member of NYDERA. The Bulletin is professional;ly done and features much excellent content.
I urge all Subtalkers to join
Does the ERA have a website? If so, what is it.
I'd like to join, and since I work in the GCT area, I figured I'd just walk up and join, because I'll likely keep forgetting to put a check in an envelope. But I can never find them! I don't know if I'm in the wrong tower, the wrong floor, or the wrong elevator. Exactly HOW do I get to the office?
-Hank
The office is only open Monday nights, from about 5 to 7 PM. Send a check for $30 for NYD dues, $21 for ERA dues ($20 plus a $1 initiation fee), or $51 for both to:
Electric Railroaders' Association
PO Box 3323
New York NY 10163-3323
Also please enclose a letter indicating that you wish to JOIN whichever club(s) you choose (not just pay this year's dues).
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Yes, I did the very same thing back on December 27, 1969.
That was also a memorable day for I first rode the PATH, beginning my journey by looking down the bore of the fearsome curve at the south end of Hudson Terminal; and the sound and fury of K-CLASS #1207 as it wrenched its way into the station.
Upon arrival at Newark, the sign "City Subway", naturally attracted Mom and I and weren't we pleasantly surprised not to see a subway train, but a real, live PCC Trolley Car! I hadn't ridden one of them since they disappeared from the streets of Washington, DC in 1962.
I had the pleasure of riding the PCCs again on March 13th, with my good friends Simon and subway-buff along for the journey. Nothing like it in the whole world.
Wayne
interesting question---
i've told this story here a couple of times, but i am running out of things to say, so i'll tell it again... also i am most touched by the moment
i was on a southbound 8th ave local coming into west 4th street... the train was maybe a set of r 10's...
there was a smoke condition and the train was moving slowly... i was riding in the lst car, but not at the window... i was getting very uptight, as i was afraid of getting trapped in smoke... the motorman, a middle aged black man in a pinstripe motorman's uniform made an annoucement over the pa saying:
"don't worry folks, i'll get you safely through this"... he pulled the train slowly into west 4th and we all got off...
his annoucement is what gets me choked up... he was going to take care of us... what could he really do?... it doesn't matter... he was going to take care of us and took the time to let us know that...
in some ways that incident colors my feelings toward transit... screw all the crap about equipment and mdbf and headways... one man spoke to me on that train in a way that no automated annoucement or sanitized annoucement to customers will ever do...
he showed he cared
i didn't thank him at the time, but tell this story as a way of thanking him and all the other transit workers, as well as anyone else who cares about the work they do and who know how to comfort people...
it doesn't even have to be what you do as a worker, but how you carry yourself as a person... can you relate to the people around you in a kind way?
are we relating to each other here in a kind way?
how do i like being treated, and am i treating others in that way?
heypaul, i am not the one causing trouble, it's these other provocative people around here... doesn't matter.... are we treating them the way we would like to be treated?
let me say that i am not always able to live by these words... but i often know when i am being mean or cruel...
--What immediately replaced them on the L after '75?
What you caught was likely an R-7 or R-9. The Triplexes stopped running in revenue service on July 23rd, 1965. The R7/R9s ran until March 31st, 1977, I believe.
I started riding the trains so early that I'm not even sure if I even HAVE a defining subway moment. I'd have to think about that. I didn't even "discover" the ERA until about 1990.
--Mark
I remember when I was on an M train that went up the wrong Broadway: Manhattan's. It made express stops north of Canal Street and took me as far as Times Square.
I also remember riding R32 cars on the F line when I was younger. These R32s already went through their GOH. I wish they'd bring the R32s to the F--no--all lines that have only R46s, and R68s running on them.
Mine is carved in granite: July 21, 1965. I rode on the subway for the very first time that day, from 36th St.-4th Ave. to 34th St. Herald Square on an N train of shiny, brand-spanking new R-32s. Highlights which I can recall: the blue doors, the green backlit "57th St." destination signs, crossing the Manhattan Bridge, and an ad for Milky Way bars featuring a girl with chocolate all over her face and a caption which read, "Do all minors dig Milky Way?"
Other dates: April 30, 1967. My first ride on the IND.
May 7, 1967: first ride on the 8th Ave. line, on an AA.
July 20, 1967: first ride on an A train of - what else? - R-10s.
August 9, 1967: first ride on the IRT.
I've got two, both of which took place when I was supposed to be attending Brooklyn Tech (1990)
The first involves a rat on an F train, which I turned into a creative writing essay when I got to college (I've got it on disk somewhere, I'll post it, maybe)
The second involves an M train on the 4th Ave Express, a broken rain in the Montague tunnel, and the Manhattan bridge.
I was on the M, and we were held between Pacific St and Dekalb Av. Listening to the radio chatter, I made out 'diversion via B'way' The 'diversion' turned out to us stopping at Dekalb on the Bridge track, and crossing under to the south side of the bridge, which was, at the time, closed. We went over the bridge, up the B'way line via express, and then on into the 63st tunnel, which at the time, I didn't even know CONNECTED to B'way. I stuck with the train (and I had struck up a conversation with the motorman) and we went southbound on the 6th Ave local, crossed over at W4 to the Express, and went back to Brooklyn, skiping Dekalb.
-Hank
You no doubt saw R-7A or R-9 if there was gray plastic seating. The #1400-series R-7A had wicker seats until the end, which wasn't long after that. The D-Types were long gone (except for the three sets that remain today) by 1975.
Those beasts were replaced by R27/R30 cars.
Wayne
IIRC, the R-27s and R-30s replaced the unrebuilt BMT standards and oddball units such as the multis and SIRT cars. The arrival of the R-32s signalled the beginning of the premature end for the Triplexes.
There were no triplexes on the LL in '75. What's this all about Kevin?
The last ones ran in the later 60s at most.
The Triplexes never ran on the Canarsie line. They served the Southern Division exclusively.
seems like more pictures of the BMT-B was taken then any other car !! So it seems it wins hands down !!!!!!
the R- 1 thru R -9 types were my favorite !! what is your favorite pre R/40 car ??????
The R-32.
The B-type has to have been photographed a lot. It was all over the BMT with many nice outdoor settings.
The first HO scale model of any NY subway car was the BMT standards.
Actually, the first released to market was the almost forgotten U.S.-made IRT Lo-V model. Silver Leaf's brass BMT Standard was the first Japanese-made model NYC subway car, about a year later, IIRC.
Still loved the Triplex
Still have mine. (Brass HO Scale model that is)
the R-1 thru R-9 gets my vote !!
do you have a picture of it ??
Salaam,
If you had been taping at the railfan window when the "B" types were still in service, you would have been able to open the top of the storm door window and lower it several inches.
You would never have had to worry about dirty or scratched windows. Of course, you probably would have been unpopular with the passengers in the car, if you were taping in mid-winter.
That was when the windows were made of real glass. IIRC, the BMT standards had the glass with embedded chicken wire. So did the R-1/9s and R-10s on the storm doors.
I loved the Triplex, with the Standard a close second. Of the cars I never rode - the BMT Bluebird was the absolute best!!!!!!!!
www.bmt-lines.com
question it seems that car # nunber 2390 and at least three others were oprational in 1978 - 1977
and were being used for museum trips !! why did this stop and what happened to this operational train ??
sure would be worth a trip to new york !!!!
Several years ago when the NYPD consumed the NYC Transit & Housing Police Forces, both parent agencies (the Housing Authority and the Transit Authority) became step-children in that a strong police presence was reduced to cursory coverage. While actual felony crime numbers remain stable for now, it is clear that 'quality of life' conditions in the subways have deteriorated. This is very evident on the long subway lines where homeless and pan-handlers have taken over the system. Homeless no longer dissappear during the 'rush hours' but remain sprawled in cars, unchallanged. It seems to me that the Police Comm. could take the Anti-crime task-forces out of the communities that apparently do not want them and do not trust them. He could then re-deploy these forces into the subways, thereby making all concerned happy. The people who don't want police in their communities will be satisfied and commuters will be pleased by the rapid improvement in the subterranian quality of life.
[Several years ago when the NYPD consumed the NYC Transit & Housing Police Forces, both parent agencies (the Housing Authority and the Transit Authority) became step-children in that a strong police presence was reduced to cursory coverage. While actual felony crime numbers remain stable for now, it is clear that 'quality of life' conditions in the subways have deteriorated. This is very evident on the long subway lines where homeless and pan-handlers have taken over the system. Homeless no longer dissappear during the 'rush hours' but remain sprawled in cars, unchallanged. It seems to me that the Police
Comm. could take the Anti-crime task-forces out of the communities that apparently do not want them and do not trust them. He could then re-deploy these forces into the subways, thereby making all concerned happy. The people who don't want police in their communities will be satisfied and commuters will be pleased by the rapid improvement in the subterranian quality of life.]
I can predict what would happen if that plan were adopted. Taking the Anti-Crime Task Forces out of the ghetto and redeploying them in the subway undoubtedly would make the subways much better. So far so good. But the decreased police presence in the ghetto would cause crime rates in those locations to skyrocket. "Political activists" would immediately start hollering racism, there'd be editorials in the Times denouncing the Mayor and the NYPD, and the Upper West Siders would be going mental (not that any of them have ever been in the ghetto, of course).
I'd almost like to see that. Can you imagine that moron Al Sharpton screaming for police protection for his community? That racist bum would get what he deserved but the people there would get the short end of the stick and a lot of innoncent people would be sacrificed. So that part is not good at all. I read reports of how murders in NYC has gone down significantly since Rudy has been in charge. But as much as I admire that man, he does need to reach out and show some more compassion. Caring is not a sign of weakness.
dont disagree with everything you said mr sea beach fred police protection is like the transit police leaving us alone
when we shoot vidieos but not murdering anyone who is unarmed etc........ ( you know what i mean )
back in 1992 LOST ANGELES EXPLODED because of case after case of police brutality and when latino & black
and even poor white so called trash and others murdered by police and SOME korean liquor store owners-killers
now the law enforcement community of all of southern california has *#$%^&@#$^#%^*** all over it ( couldnt say it ) !!!
when you get mad i guess you can go out of control !! however no excuse mr RUDY G to murder with his blessings his
law enforcement officers of your city !!! do i need to not be safe fom POLICE in new york city ?? ( oh well ) >>>
Sea Beach Fred, please e mail me back. My e mail address was lost and I tried to e mail you thru this thread, and it came back to me Brighton Bob
Some groups will not accept compassion. Case in point (forgive the off-topic digression):
4 drug dealers was arrested in Brooklyn yesterday. One escaped and ran through the neighborhood. He cut through a school yard with the policce in hot pursuit. One police officer had his gun drawn. The hoodlum was arrested a short distance later. Instead of the community being angry that this miscreant was selling drugs in their community, Instead of the community angry because the thug ran through the school yard, the community was furious that the police pursued him through the school yard.
Now before the liberals among us jump on the band-wagon, lets follow the logic.
Community is angry because police chased a criminal through a school yard.
Local activists demands police no longer be permitted to pursue criminals through school yards and playgrounds.
All fleeing criminals use schoolyards and playgrounds as foolproof escape routes.
Law enforcement in the 'community' comes to a standstill.
These communities are so blinded by their hatred for the police that they are taking irrational positions just to vent their anger. I say it again, pull the police out of the communities that do not want police and beef up the communities that do.
As usual you only have PART of the story.
Maybe you missed it, but what got the community up in arms was the fact that the cop was chasing an unarmed perpertrator with HIS GUN DRAWN.
You make it sound like the community and parents of the children (it was a grade school) were upset over a routine cop-chasing-a-thug scenerio. This was not the case.
Watch tonights news broadcast -- PLEASE.
Doug aka BMTman
[As usual you only have PART of the story.
Maybe you missed it, but what got the community up in arms was the fact that the cop was chasing an unarmed perpertrator with HIS GUN DRAWN.]
How could the cop be sure that the perp really was unarmed?
still no excuse for gunning down innocent persons TELL YOUR RUDY G !!!!
I did and His Honor, The Mayor said to tell you that no innocent person was gunned down!
no honor here in gunning down any innocent unarmed person !! next time it could be you!! ( train dude )
then will you still honor a mayor who supports murder by his law enforcement ?????
Considering that there were (according to recent published accounts) only 11 police-involved fatal shootings during the 8 years of the Guiliani Administration, and 41 during the 4 thankfully short years of the Dinkins administration, why exactly are people complaining? Because Guiliani is a white man who was able to clean up this city, where all Dinkins could do was fan the flames of hate. (The Korean grocery boycott and the Crown Heights Riots to name two)
And how about that interloper, Al Sharpton? He lives in Fort Lee! What business of his is it what happens in NYC? He certainly didn't think it was the business of a white jew from Brooklyn to be running a store in Harlem! He led the protests that ultimately resulting in the arson destruction of a business, as well as the deaths of a few workers (minority workers from within the community, no less!)
-Hank
Excuse me, 6+ years of the Guiliani Administration.
-Hank
all i am saying is that it is wrong to murder even if you are so called peace officer or not !!
shooting unarmed persons by police ??? WHY DOES RUDE RUDY G support this ???!!
hell i wasnt treated like this by transit police when i was shooting vidieo !!
He doesn't support it. If I charged at you with a knife, and you shot me, is that murder? Is it murder if it turns out the knife I was holding was only rubber? How about if it turns out the knife you thought I was holding was actually a spatula? Or a paintbrush? What then?
The only people qualified to second-guess a person who goes through a situation such as this are those same people who made the original decision. Right or wrong, they'll be second-guesing themselves for the rest of their lives. It doesn't matter what you think NOW, it matters what you thought, what your perceptions were, when you took the original action you took.
What if the next cop DOESN'T shoot, because he sees a gun and thinks it's a wallet, or a candy bar, or a spatula? Now the cop is dead. Who will come and say 'What right did that man have to shoot a police officer who was no danger to him?' Where will Al Sharpton be when the next minority drug dealer shots the next minority cop? Or that same drug dealer shoots your next-door neighbor? What then?
-Hank
Al Sharpton be when the next minority drug dealer shots the next minority cop? Or that same drug dealer shoots your next-door neighbor? What then?
The proper way to prevent drug dealers from shooting bystanders is not to tolerate and/or encourage police brutality or the gunning down of suspects. The proper way is to ensure that the vicious little school-age thugs who 'grow up' to be drug dealers are permanently taken out of circulation before they graduate from bullying and petty crime to murder.
My personal opinion is that 'taken out of circulation' should involve a youth two-strikes law, with the guilty being executed by firing squad after the second conviction.
CH.
leagal murder by cop ?? well that says something about you !!!......
We don't want anyone to shoot Al Sharpton. But taping his mouth and setting him adrift on a slow boat to Katmandu, well that sounds very delectable to me.
It's not particularly fair to pick on David Dinkins. He was a feeble-minded old fart (much like Ronald Reagan as Prez) when he became mayor of New York City, so what did you expect of him -- a miracle perhaps???
That's the best description of reagan I've heard in a long time.
That's the best description of Dinkins I've heard in a long time.
Uh,Huh :~)
after reading all of the threads ( off topic) it seems to me that as long as myself or any other black man gets
murdered by police that is 100% ok !... ( back on topic ).. I do thank the nypd transit police for leaving me alone
during my many railfan vidieo shooting(s) !!!! .... ( oh well i guess i spelled something wrong ! ) ...........
Look, I do not believe that anyone on this venue is so malevolent as to feel that it's okay for police to kill people of any race. I think you have seriously misinterpretted some of our comments. I think what we are saying is:
That while the shooting of any unarmed person is deplorable there has been far less of it under the present administration in NYC than under Davey Dinkins.
The black community should be more responsible in its understanding of why these unfortunate incidents happen.
Incidents should be dealt with, with a moderate amount of consistancy. (Not blame the white cop or blame the mayor when the cop is not white)
Give the police the benifit of the doubt. 99% of them want to do a credible job
What I'm trying to say is start thinking for yourself and stop believing what Sharpton, Jackson & Daughtry tell you. For them, cops shooting black men has become a growth industry and as long as they are getting rich off such incidents, they have a dis-incentive to see them stop.
remember i said good things about how the transit police left me and my press passes and tags alone!
the rest of what i said is because of my life and any other unarmed black man being murdered by police!!
has nothing to do with sharpton-jackon-daughtry-etc... the transit police left me alone and didnt bother me at all !!
and remember i was very happy with this !.......especially when you are shooting subway vidieos !!.
Paging Captain Clueless!
Oh, he's already here.
-Hank
at least i was left alone a 50 year old blackman shooting railfan vidieos thru the railfan window !!
( get mad ) and except for one rude motorman on the #5 redbird,.... i got off his train and caught
another one going the other way !! ha!! ha!! you should have seen him passing me up headed he other way !!!
other than that i dont have any complaints but ............ and rude rudy G .............!!!!!!..
Hey Big Sal: Five will get you ten that if any policeman in New York hassled you for no reason and some of your railfan bros were around and knew who you were, we would come to your aid in no time flat; yes all of us white guys.
thank you very much remember police brutality and harrassment can happen to you too !! always be careful ith police !
however ( back on topic ) the NYPD transit police left me alone even when i shot railfan vidieos !! ........ thank you very much ..........
no honor here in gunning down any innocent unarmed person !! next time it could be you!! ( train dude )
then will you still honor a mayor who supports murder by his law enforcement ????? ..
Perhaps the cop didn't know that, but in any event the perp was NOT brandishing a weapon at the time the chase took them through a schoolyard of children.
The cop shouldn't be raked over the coals -- if anything this incident was bad judgement on the part of the cop giving chase with his weapon drawn.
Doug aka BMTman
Hi, Doug
I think that you are right but some of these people will support the cops no matter what they do. They call Sharpton a racist when they make racist remarks themselves.
It's funny how these "community activists" never bother to think about the hundreds of blacks and Hispanics alive in NYC today who _would have been dead_ had crime rates continued at their early-1990's levels.
To think, that describes Sharpton to a T.
-Hank
Consider this scenerio, the crime occurs and is wittnessed by P.O.
the officer orders the suspect to stop, the suspect hedges , the officer unholsters his weapon to add emphesis to his order, the suspect runs , the office gives chase. Now the officer has an unholstered weapon in his hand and while running his holster is flopping all around . to re-holster the weapon would cause the officer to lose time and distance in the chase. The officer did the best in a difficult situation by not starting a possible gunfight at the O.K. coaral, no innocents where hurt, the suspect was caught.
To have the Ploice walk away from a community is an over reaction that would endanger the innocent and lawabiding of the community and incourage crime and vigilantism.
You conferee's are above average intelligence , think things thru and view from all sides , not just two.
avid
I'll tell you what, you chase a potentially violent felon without a weapon. What about the drug dealer who provoked the incident? Where is his culpability? I still maintain that if THAT COMMUNITY wants to continue to obstruct justice, bash police and place police officer's life in more danger than normal, the anti-crime efforts in that community should be terminated and deployed where they are wanted.
[I still maintain that if THAT COMMUNITY wants to continue to obstruct justice, bash police and place police officer's life in more danger than normal, the anti-crime efforts in that community should be terminated and deployed where they are wanted.]
Maybe the NYPD should call a job action and refuse to patrol or answer calls in the ghetto. Within a month at most, ghetto residents - those of whom who have survived - will come on their knees *begging* for the cops to come back.
It is wrong to think the people who reside in minority areas dislike the police. That is just what certain rabblerousers and the press would like you to believe. I've been a cop for 18 years and must say most people in the ghetto areas appreciate and respect the police. As a matter of fact, in the 6 years that I worked in a middle to upper class white area (Bayside, Douglaston, Little Neck) I came across more disrespect and sarcasm than in the minority areas of Bklyn. Alot of them considered us their servants.
I think you can blame the cop hating on the mayor.
More hate goes to the mayor then to the cops.
Face it, they hate the mayor his best friend Howard Safir.
You make it sound like the people of that community, Bed-Sty are 'anti-police', which is not the case. The parents of children at that school have the right to be upset because of a bad judgement call by that one cop.
Relax, you're reading too much into this thing. And besides, what the heck does all this have to do with the BMT, IRT or IND????
Doug aka BMTman
[You make it sound like the people of that community, Bed-Sty are 'anti-police', which is not the case]
Maybe not, but it certainly seems that way. And it's totally ungrateful for people in the ghetto to complain about the police. For it's those areas that have benefitted the most from the reductions in crime in recent years. Does anyone really think that dozens of people who live on the Upper East Side or in Douglaston would have been mowed down in drive-by shootings if the NYPD hadn't adopted a more pro-active attitude?
And if that suspect, who was being chased by police, who had turned the corner into a schoolyard, and had the instant thought 'Hey, one of those kids would make a great hostage!' and grabbed one, holding s/he by his/her throat. Then what?
-Hank
What if the cop wanted to be a hero and open fire hitting one of the kids?
POW POW POW
Doug,
On second thought, I agree with you. The police officer should have broke off the chase once the perp entered the school yard. In fact, if we follow your logic, school yards will become 'free trade zones' for drug dealers. I may only have half of the story, as usual, but in my neighborhood, we don't encourage drug dealing. If you want drug dealing and street crime in your neighborhood, far be it from me to argue. After all, my wife, my daughter and my grandchildren are safe.
[On second thought, I agree with you. The police officer should have broke off the chase once the perp entered the school yard. In fact, if we follow your logic, school yards will become 'free trade zones' for drug dealers.]
Now you're being ridiculous.
[I may only have half of the story, as usual, but in my neighborhood, we don't encourage drug dealing. If you want drug dealing and street crime in your neighborhood, far be it from me to argue. After all, my wife, my daughter and my grandchildren are safe.]
So, where is your ivory castle located?
Believe me, drugs are sold in your neighborhood as well. Only it is not out in the open and visible.
Doug aka BMTman
Perhaps some drugs are sold in my neighborhood but in my neighborhood if the police are chasing a perp, the perp can't look to the community for support. I heard not one of those Bedford-Stuyvesant parents or School Board people condemn the perp for endangering their children by using the school yard full of children to aid in his escape. Again, we get back to being consistantcy. If you want law enforcement support those that are on the front lines. I would be hard-pressed to blame any cop in Bed-Stuy who refused to rush to the scene of an on-going incident, knowing that he/she will be second guessed by people who either have no idea about police work, have a political agenda or both.
Doug - you can have the last word if you want it. My final word is - if this is what the good people of Bed-Stuy want, I hope that they get to reap what they have sown...
Whatever....I guess we agree to disagree which is the gentlemanly thing to do.
Let's get back to transit and talking about R-9 cabs in people's apartments...
Doug aka BMTman
well said doug--- let us not forget the ultimate
purpose of subtalk is to focus attention on me and
my accomplishments--- in an attempt to capitalize on
the daily news article, my agent has suggested that
i let motion picture film crews use my r-9
motorman's cab--- we have a strong possibility of
having it used in a projected cbs series about train
operators... my cab will be available at much
cheaper rates than any other source of transit
environments--- i will be available as a consultant
at a modest fee too
others have pointed out that the rest of that
bedroom can be used to simulate the cell in a prison
or a room in a mental ward... the sheer simplicity
of the unmade bed i'm sure resonated with many of
you who have been institutionalized... i too will be
available to play the role of a psychiatric
patient... in the event the producers need other
residents, i have been maintaining an extensive list
of people from subtalk and bustalk who would be
naturals for the parts.... my 10% fee is the
standard agents fee... you will be expected to
audition in your own strait jackets... come prepared
to read recent material that you have posted on
politics, police, race relations, the poor, and
limousine liberals... you will have no trouble
landing a role reading some of the recent posts
here....
Hey Paul, although I really envy you for the cab in your apartment don't forget my genuine wicker (or cane, whatever you call it seat in my basement stolen borrowed off of a Myrtle "Q" type car on its last day of operation in '69.
The SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff page
my memorial to ROOSEVELT RACEWAY
aw sarge..... i just checked out your train buff page for the first time... it is really great... i really like it when people give their personal connection with transit... it just makes it so very real... can i suggest one improvement for the images and story???... you should have a panel on my r-9 cab and my several of my most asinine posts ... just, a friendly suggestion, although if you don't put it up, i hope you sit on a split end of a piece of wicker on your wicker seat....
"you should have a panel on my r-9 cab"
Hey Paul, how does this panel look?
HEY EVERYONE, HEY PAUL HAS AN R-9 MOTORMAN'S CAB IN HIS APARTMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!
that's great sarge--- instead of putting that on
your website--- how about putting that on a trailer
to all your posts on subtalk?--- again if i may
make a few suggestions: i think it could use a few
more exclamation points--- and if you get get each
line to marquee in a different pattern, i think that
would be the most annoying to my fellow subtalkers
here---
HE ALSO GOT HIS PICTURE
IN THE DAILY NEWS
EAT YOUR HEARTS OUT!!!!!!!!!!!
thats telling him heypaul !!!!!!
salaam--- do you know html?--- i could give you a
couple of pointers on how to make your posts more
interesting
! ! !
! ! !
railfan window
OY VEY!!!
HEY PAUL, May I check out your train when I come to the Madison Reunion in Nov????
sure bob... but all madison alumni will be able to see my cab, if my meeting today with the reunion people works out... i am proposing to hold the madison 75th reunion in my apartment instead of leonard's out in long island... i have a 4 1/2 room apartment and could easily hold 400 people in the apartment and still have room for a band and plenty of room for dancing... it would be a lot cheaper, only $10 a person, with a full dubrow's dinner special with applesauce.........
You available for weddings or Bar Mitzvas?? By the way Dubrow's is no more. Cater it from Jahn's.
sarge--- i don't work happy occasions--- divorces, institutionalizations and unveilings are my specialty---
hey jeff--- i've lived in sheepshead bay all my life--- if i say dubrows exists, take my word for it... if you do dislike dubrows, well that's another thing--- i have other caterers--- garfields, the automats, schrafts, chock full of nuts, or even the belmont cafeteria, your old hangout in the city---
Don't forget the Jerome Cafeteria opposite Yankee Stadium. By the way Paul, there are 3 cafeterias that I frequented regularly that are REALLY still open (not like Dubrow's) and thats the cafeterias in my elementary, junior high, and high schools!! But even though I frequently frequented them (that don't sound right) I do not recommend the food!!!!
the
SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff page
my MEMORIAL to ROOSEVELT RACEWAY
sarge-- i never made it up to yankee stadium when i
was a kid, even though i was a yankee fan--- i
checked you website, i noticed that you haven't had
a chance to add an update on my accomplishments--- i
realize you're busy--- i'm sure you'll get around to
it--- you didn't mean to show disrespect to me---
that's just the way you are---you don't mean to be
mean--- that's just your nature--- you're just plain
mean--- you're never going to change--- you can't
help yourself--- you're a
B L A B B E R M O U T H..... A.... B L A B B E R M O U
T H
You must have disabled the field shunting in that crawling message.-)
I have a question about your R9 cab. It is one of those cases where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts? By this I mean, the parts can fit through the door and into the elevator of you building and the whole can not. If you ever have to move will you have to take it appart of will you just knock down a wall. Or will you keep building untill you have a complete subway car and track work so the train can be driven out.
i built the cab out of parts--- the walls that enclose the cab are not original equipment, they were 3/4 inch nova ply sheets--- as i was reading your post about my plans for the cab should i move, i thought that i probably will die in this apartment, and then thought that i might be buried in the r-9 cab- and instead of being put in the ground like a casket, it would be placed on a cemetery plot like a headstone-- why not?-- in the older cemeteries people built elaborate stone buildings--- why can't i have my r-9 cab as a memorial--- i would have air compressor sounds and air brake sounds playing continuously, at high volume levels just short of waking up the dead--- when people came to pay their respects, there would be prerecorded readings of some of my best sub-talk posts--- of course to discourage vandals, i might have to surround it with razor wire--- it seems a pretty good idea--- there are worse ways to spend eternity
I plan to be entombed like an Egyptian, I've always been fascinated by how they buried their kings (well, they didn't actually BURY them). To prevent grave robbing, The completely heat sealed room where my mummified remains and my treasure will lie will be placed inside a giant lead pig, which will be cast around it so that there would be no openings. It's sheer weight would prevent it from ever being moved, and destroying it would destroy the treasure within.
Heypaul, have you ever thought about trying to get your neighbors evicted so that you could get the extra room on your floor to put in an IND interlocking complete with matching signals to compliment your R-9 cab? :-)
Any warped thoughts to add here?
Doug aka BMTman
actually there is a movement in the building to have me evicted--- the neighbors are complaining that every time i am on subtalk, they either hear me cursing when i read other people's posts or laughing uncontrollably when i post one of my own--- lately there has been more laughing, as i no longer bother to read anyone else's posts--- what was it you asked doug?
Better still, a 5 car BMT Multi!
Looking at that is like standing at 81st St. on the northbound platform while an express train is rocketing by. Back in the good old days, of course.
lol
Heypaul, I was wondering when you were going to resurface with one of your obnoxious posts?
Great to see you back in action!
This site needs alittle levity every now and again.
LOL!
Doug aka BMTman
P.S. I'll be bringing my strait jacket, on loan from Thurston. :-)
[I heard not one of those Bedford-Stuyvesant parents or School Board people condemn the perp for endangering their children by using the school yard full of children to aid in his escape. Again, we get back to being consistantcy. If you want law enforcement support those that are on the front lines. I would be hard-pressed to blame any cop
in Bed-Stuy who refused to rush to the scene of an on-going incident, knowing that he/she will be second guessed by people who either have no idea about police work, have a political agenda or both.]
And yet the people in Bedford-Stuyvesant probably would be quick to complain if the police are too slow to respond to calls in the area. I'm just glad that I live in the suburbs and don't have to deal with places like that. Nor do I particularly care about them.
Where I live, the 111 stationhouse couldn't care less. The set up road blocks but the problem is the teens at night. They race their cars down Francis Lewis Blvd and the cops don't do anything. Where are they when you need them? I wrote a letter to the commanding officer yet nothing happened. This is at night when crime in my area is at its highest. After school also but that is just noisy kids.
Last week someone set a clothing bin on fire. Now, you think that the 'burbs has a immunity to crime? The truth of the matter is that if you don't want crime, start a neighborhood in a rurual area with people you trust. Crime maybe lower where you live but it is still there. Don't think you are that safe. Me? I don't care about other places of the neighborhood anyway.
BTW, where are the cops? Dunkin' Dounuts is closed at that time, so where can they possibly be??
Where I live, the 111 stationhouse couldn't care less. The set up road blocks but the problem is the teens at night. They race their cars down Francis Lewis Blvd and the cops don't do anything. Where are they when you need them? I wrote a letter to the commanding officer yet nothing happened. This is at night when crime in my area is at its highest. After school also but that is just noisy kids.
Last week someone set a clothing bin on fire. Now, you think that the 'burbs has a immunity to crime? The truth of the matter is that if you don't want crime, start a neighborhood in a rurual area with people you trust. Crime maybe lower where you live but it is still there. Don't think you are that safe. Me? I don't care about other places of the neighborhood anyway.
The kids are white by the way. Mostly Greek and Italian.
BTW, where are the cops? Dunkin' Dounuts is closed at that time, so where can they possibly be??
WE'RE GLAD YOU LIVE IN SUBURBS TOO!
Peter, the burbs has it's share of crime too. Just that it's not as publicized as city crime (unless it's something "sensational", like Amy Fischer/Joey Buttafuco business).
Doug aka BMTman
That's Amy FISHER , NOT Amy Fischer
Thanks for the correction.
I guess I was making an unconsious connection between the Long Island Lolita and a former Chess Champion from Erasmus Hall High School.....;-)
Doug aka BMTman
[re writing Amy FISCHER instead of FISHER]
[Thanks for the correction.
I guess I was making an unconsious connection between the Long Island Lolita and a former Chess Champion from Erasmus Hall High School.....;-)]
I'm surprised you didn't write Amy Fischler :-)
Good point!
Only a railfan would note that...
;-)
[Peter, the burbs has it's share of crime too. Just that it's not as publicized as city crime (unless it's something "sensational", like Amy Fischer/Joey Buttafuco business).]
You're right on both counts. Suburbs today aren't a refuge from crime, and it's probably also true that urban crime gets more media attention. Yet it does seem as if suburban crime is less "random" than its urban counterpart and hence isn't perceived as so frightening. Violent crime in the suburbs is probably more likely to involve persons known to one another, such as domestic incidents or barroon altercations, stuff like that. It is less likely to involve random street robberies, rapes, assaults and so on - in no small part because there's far fewer people on the streets outside urban areas. Obviously, the consequences for the victims are unlikely to differ depending on whether or not they know their attackers. A stab wound is a stab wound, so to speak. But the public as a whole finds "stranger" crime, as seen mostly in the cities, as more threatening, possibly because it's more difficult to avoid.
Ask Jeff, we worked in the Bayside area I think.
111 stationhouse in Bayside is it?
Crime knows no borders.
what does this have to do with an innocent unarmed men being murdered by nypd with RUDY Gs support ??
I am still trying to figure out what any of this has to do with trains
not just transit police - was tied in ...
I am STILL trying to figure out what any of this has to do with trains
tied this in with being left alone by transit police many posts long ago when i was shooting railfan vidieos
It has strayed considerably
sorry about 20 posts or so ago i tied it in with transit police ........
Hey Doug, don't talk about what you don't know about. First of all his gun wasn't drawn (which would mean aiming at the perp) it was unholstered in is hand How did he know the person was unarmed? Of course the cop had every right to have his gun out while chasing someone, even in a elementary schoolyard. I have my gun out during many of my routine radio runs and traffic stops, whenever I feel there is a chance I might need it. In my 18 years I have never fired once. I have been on this board for about a year in a half now. In that time I never told anyone how to drive a train. I don't want any civilian tell how to do my job.
"Hey Doug, don't talk about what you don't know about."
Bravo, Jeff. That really needed to be said and said more often. In fact, I wish the PC had the balls to say it to Sharpton and the rest of the Rabble rousers.
What happens if he fell and the gun went off?
Oh! Did I kill a kid?
Ahhhhh!
They should have given up the chase.
Jeff is angry because the city hate cops.
Too bad! Make a better reputation. As for Rudy, he will defend you and put the blame on the little kid.
Your remarks are so stupid that they don't warrant a response.
Jeff, did I tell you how to do your job? No.
I'm only saying stating what I HEARD in the PRESS. And it sounds like a bad judgement call, since innocent children could have been harmed in the process, that's all.
It's like these car chases -- some municipalities are outlawing the police-pursuits because innocent people are maimed or killed in the process.
Jeff, sorry if I made my remarks sound damning of the Police Dept. That was not my intention. I have friends on the force, and they are fine guys both on and off the beat.
Doug aka BMTman
That's the problem. You heard it from the press. How often do we say 'Hey, they ran a story in the Times on the R142, and how it's 100' long and will run on the 'A' line to New Jersey'?
And the criticism of ignorant reporters follows.
-Hank
We are in that period of time right now that is highlighted by typical press overrration to a major event.
Just like after an air crash, when every little warning light failure or blown tire for the next two weeks is cause for CNN to interrupt its programming and go live to the scene, anything the New York City police do for the next several weeks will be anaylized, disected, probe, criticized or defended by the various talking heads and interpeted as a sign of the out of control system by opponents of Giuliani, even if the subsequent events are acts the police have been doing for years without any notice at all.
The press (especially TV) has a story that draws ratings, and they're going to milk it for all it's worth for as long as possible. After all, there's only so many times you can put John and Patsy Ramsey on the air..
Sometimes the strangest thoughts pop into your head for no discernable reason. A case in point happened this morning, while I was "enjoying" my trip on the LIRR. I recalled having read an anecdote years ago concerning the famous British philosopher and scientist Bertrand Russell. It seems that one day Russell asked his housekeeper to show him how to make tea, so he could have some when she was off-duty. The valiant housekeeper tried and tried, making the lesson as simple as possible, but she failed miserably. Russell simply could not manage to grasp such a basic task, though he surely could have written long treatises on the chemical reactions involved in the brewing of tea. His enormous store of theoretical knowledge did not translate into any real-world practical ability.
I see a rather clear parallel to the subway system. Transit Authority and other government officials can write lengthy, graph- and footnote-filled policy statements on the demand for system expansion. No doubt there are finely detailed statistical studies on the need for the Second Avenue line, just as an example. Yet in real-world terms, absolutely *nothing* can get accomplished. Just as Bertrand Russell's intellect didn't enable him to make his tea, the writing of enough studies and reports to require clearcutting 1,000 acres of forest doesn't mean that anything actually can get built.
Yet there's a big difference between the two scenarios. Russell's inability to make his own tea is amusing. The MTA's inability to get even the most desparately needed system expansions made is just plain sickening.
coffee seems to be the best selling hot beverage today !! like STARBUCKS COFFEE .......
even in nyc subway stations and on the cross sountry roads !!!
My little sunurban town of 13,000 residents now has TWO starbucks. I have started wearing a gas mask as a precaution against affulenza.
Wonder if history is repeating itself?
It took PATH to get a 100% air-conditioned fleet first before the TA decided to get its act together and get A/C as standard equipment in its cars.
Fast forward 30 years, and NJ is about to open an LRT in Hudson/Bergen. Maybe now the TA will gets its act together and build one of its "studied-to-death" projects as well.
--Mark
It really is quite simple, warm the pot, put in one spoon of tea per cup and "one for the pot" pour on boiling water. Leave for around two or three minutes. Put a small drop of fresh milk in the cup (milk must go in first) then pour in the tea through a strainer. Serve with suger to taste.
Simon :)
1) I thought Tea came in a bag that prevents sludge at the bottom of one's mug?
2) Why would I want milk in my tea?
3) American method of making tea: Open 1 pound can of Lipton brand iced tea mix. Pout one (1) scoop-full into tall glass (12 fluid ounces). Then fill the glass with water. Sirt with a spoon if available (a pencil or twig will do if one is not) until a whirllpool forms for about 20 seconds. Enjoy your beverage. Imeaditly engage in intense physical exercise or end up in a sugar induced coma. See dentist as necessary.
3a) Alternate method of American tea production: Open refrigerator. Remove one (1) bottle of Snapple brand (of Lipton brand) real brewed iced tea in any one of 10 exciting flavours. Chug contence of bottle. Run to the nearest bathroom to expell fast acting tea by-product. Not recomended for people driving on an extended journey.
Real Southern method for making tea:
In a five-gallon insulated beverage cooler, pour 2 1/2 cups sugar. Optionally, add a cup of lemon juice. Boil four gallons of water and add to cooler; stir. Tie eight teabags per gallon together (that's five groups of eight teabags, the reason for which will become obvious in a moment) and steep for one hour. Remove teabags, add ice until the cooler is full. Allow to chill for one additional hour. Serve over ice.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yesterday evening, I was on a #7 train going toward Times Square. At 90th St, I saw a train on the local track emerge from behind something that was blocking my view of in the area of the middle track. They were around 82nd or 74th Street at this time. The thing on the middle track wasn't emitting any light of its own, so I ruled out the idea that it was a subway train. Guess what? IT WAS! I saw #9391 running with no headlights on! It was getting dark by this time (around 6:00 pm). What's up with that?
did he she forget to turn on the light ??
Probably. Or it just wasn't working.
Why would they run a train whose lead car doesn't have working headlights? That absolutely makes no sense to me.
In Boston, rapid transit trains (Red, Blue, Orange Lines) never run with headlights on, except when momentarily turned on by operators in tunnels. When entering and in stations, headlights must be off. I have no idea why this is the rule (Gerry, Conrad?). The Green Line trolleys always have their headlights on.
I thought heavy rail transit in Boston has the headlights ON except when passing another train or entering/leaving stations.
--Mark
My observation from the STORMFAN WINDOW is that they're usually off, except when momentarily turned on. I should add that tunnel lighting in Boston seems to be a bit better than NYC.
I would somehow think that ON would be the norm for safety's sake in any lighting conditions, inside outside, bright sun, rain. In NY i've never seen a train run without lights, although the older trains, such as the R1's (without the sealed beams added later), did not have much by way of lights.
The old Red Line cars didn't even HAVE headlights. Some had them added later so they could run on the Braintree line, but the rest just had four red lights on the fromt.
Was the train going slow or fast. They might of had to take it out of service b/c of the headlights. Since it was still light outside, the T/O probably got permission to operate on the middle track to the yard. Since it ws outside, lights don't make that big of a difference.
It's not that unusual to run without headlamps. I've seen on a number of occasions passing other trains, where T/O's switched their headlamps off momentarily for their fellow colleagues as trains passed each other. It's a good way to avoid the glare that the headlamps produce especially when it's in the face of the T/O. I can't help but wonder, exactly how do you run without headlamps on? Is there some position on the reverse key that I don't know about?
-Stef
The white headlights, the red end lights, the lights in the signs, marker lights, LOCAL/EXP signs, none of those things were on!
perhaps a circut breader was popped? and continued to pop . Might just be a defect that needs lookin' at.
avid
Do you know if there were passengers on board? Maybe it was out of service.
Yes, there were passengers aboard. It was the #7 express to Main Street. The interior lights were on, BTW.
I thought that when the operator puts the key in and shoves it to "forward," the lights were normally supposed to come on. I didn't think there was just a switch.
You can turn off the front signs or even turn them on between cars, still the reverser key turns the HL on.
While riding on the "N" line yestrday, i got on #2875, which is a R68. i noticed soemthing which i have not seen since the cars were introduced in 1986:
NO SCRATCHES ANYWHERE,NOT ON THE WINDOWS,DOORS,ANYONE!!!!
Congradualtions to whoever at the Coney Island shop that did this. Now if they can only do this to the r40 slants on the "Q"
are u serious?! that must be spectacular to see! however, how long u think it will last? by the end of the week i bet u that there will be tons of scratches on the windows and later will hit the metal panels
How the heck did they get the scratches and dents out of the brushed steel interiors?
Wayne
I don't know about the dents, but they might have used some of that Scratch Out or similar polishing compound on the scratches.
Phew. I thought you were going to say you found an R68 that made decent speed.
[I thought you were going to say you found an R68 that made decent speed.]
Which means anything over ten m.p.h.
Rim shot!
Those cars need to have some field shunting restored, if not all of it.
A couple of rocket boosters on each car wouldn't hurt.
Maybe if they hire Wile E. Coyote to work in maintenance at Concourse yard that coulf happen :)
This was likely one of the cars that were spruced up for the "Law and Order" filming.
All it was is vandel shilds on the windows were replaced. They do this on the buses it is a clear piece of plastic placed on the glass like window tint for cars it is applied the same way when it gets worn it is replaced it just is not a major priorority so therfore not done to often plus it is time consuming for all glass on one bus 2 men it will take 2hrs
At the southern end of the uptown platform at 28th Street, there is what looks to be a sealed up stairway/doorway/passageway. It was obviously built after the platforms were lengthened.
Anyone have any idea what it was and when it was sealed? Was it an entrance to the NY Life building? A transfer passageway to the downtown side? A street exit?
Thanks.
[At the southern end of the uptown platform at 28th Street, there is what looks to be a sealed up stairway/doorway/passageway. It was obviously built after the platforms were lengthened.
Anyone have any idea what it was and when it was sealed? Was it an entrance to the NY Life building? A transfer passageway to the downtown side? A street exit?]
Your second guess is the correct one (a transfer passageway to the downtown side).
I thought the crossunder was in the middle of the station???
This sealed "doorway" is at the southernmost end of the northbound platform.
I'd be happy to provide a more detailed description if anyone doesn't know what I'm talking about.
Thanks.
if you can put me and my camcorder ( i will be out of the way of the operator ) inside a BRAND NEW R-142s
( inside the transverse cab so i can shoot thru the window like a good old REDBIRD )
AND i will shoot this for 4 hours long !!!!! THEN i have to eat your cow about how good a R 142 is and i cant
even talk back HOW ABOUT THAT TRANSVERSE CAB FAN CAR CLUB MEMBERS ????????
so start working NOW I will give you until THIS FALL and then ..........................CALL YOUR BLUFF !!!!!!!!
( you have my e mail and address ) .......so ............
Quoth JR:
"This oughta be one heckuva slobberknocker folks!"
Rooting for Redbirds
now i would rather shoot out of a REDBIRD but you see the TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB , INC........and.......
lets see what the REDBIRD-PHOBIA ....... society comes up with thier new 142s !!!!!!...............
South Ferry I love a clean good challenge !! guess what ??? THEY CANT DO IT !!!!!!!!!..............
now lets see them accept the SALAAMALLAH RAILFAN-WINDOW - CHALLENGE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ha!! ha!!! ha!!
>>I love a clean good challenge !!
>> guess what ??? THEY CANT DO IT !!!!
amen to that.
you made my point notice how silent mr ""OINK" is now and where is and what happened to the
TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB(s) man!!!!!! ............... the silence now !! ......... cant hear a pin drop !!!
I try to ignore people with space to rent in their crania, but you obviously want to provoke me, so fine, I will not stop attacking you. What's up with this "TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB?" I don't endorse the transverse cab just because. It provides a better working environment for the crew. The blocking of idiots like you from taking up space so you can later peddle your unauthorized photography is just a pleasant side effect.
to this post !! check out the madness! see how easy pigs go mad ?? .....!!!!
what was this last post about ?? all together now * F L A M A G E * !!!!
you made my point notice how silent mr ""OINK" is now and where is and what happened to the
TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB(s) man!!!!!! ............... the silence now !! ......... cant hear a pin drop !!!
I try to ignore people with space to rent in their crania, but you obviously want to provoke me, so fine, I will not stop attacking you. What's up with this "TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB?" I don't endorse the transverse cab just because. It provides a better working environment for the crew. The blocking of idiots like you from taking up space so you can later peddle your unauthorized photography is just a pleasant side effect.
to this post !! check out the madness! see how easy pigs go mad ?? .....!!!!
what was this last post about ?? all together now * F L A M A G E * !!!!
you made my point notice how silent mr ""OINK" is now and where is and what happened to the
TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB(s) man!!!!!! ............... the silence now !! ......... cant hear a pin drop !!!
Sure we can't do it. Know why? None of us have the authority, nor are authorized, to allow non-RTO personel into the cab. Come up with a challange that would be legal, and then maybe you'll have some takers.
-Hank
but you see subtalkers ( maybe yourself included ) throw so much .....B.S.. ( the transverse cab car club )
around and so i threw you guys a curve you couldnt hit !!! ... right into the catchers mitt !! ..... STRIKE THREE !!!
Most of that BS is thrown around by you.
what did I say folks ?? the TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB ( inc.) cant rise to the challenge !!
so resort oink!! oink!! oink !! to FALAMGE & personal attacks..........
TREVOR LOGAN seems to be the only one who will witness my eating CROW !!!!
Trevor is not interested in your eating habits, I assure you. He's also one of the few people here who MAY be able to arrange your little field trip. But even he can't do it on his say-so.
Now, I challenge YOU to go ONE WEEK without typing like a child. No more CAPITAL LETTER WORDS in the middle of sentences, no more lowercase letters to start sentences, proper punctuation, etc. I won't hold you to perfect spelling, except if it involves the word video. C'mon, batter up! SWING, batter batter, SWING!
-Hank
wrong hank the umpire already called strike three on you !! ........... ( now before the umpire throws you out of the game ).....
! go back to the dugout and sit down and be quiet !!!!!!!!!
question will you be there when the R-142 crow VIDIEO is shot by the # 1 one expert in this field .....ME !!!!
now hank put up or shut up and plesae you cant play litle league anymore you are supposed to be GROWN UP !!
My, my, we're full of ourselves, aren't we?
It's bottom of the ninth, buddy. No one on, you're down by 1 run. Two outs. You're the last hope for your team.
The play by play:
"Allah steps to the plate. The windup by Hank....Swing and a miss at a slider in the dirt. 0-1 on Salaam Allah, who leads the league this year in doublespeak and Rickey Henderson imitations."
"Hank goes back into his windup, and here's the pitch..."
"Will he swing at this one?"
-Hank
PS-I realize I didn't offeryou anything in return, as you offered a free video. So here's what I'll give you.
Respect.
response and hank throws the pitch t o salaam............ high fly ball into left field !!! going,,,,going...going,,,,GONE !!!!!!
HOME ... RUN..!!!!!! ( crowd noise )..... oh well hank even sandy koufax gave up home runs sometime !!
what vidieo did you want ??? WARNING !!!! my vidieos are the best !!! meet you at the R -142s crow eating
contest !!! .....otis redding & aretha once sang the song "" all i need is a litle respect ""
throwing a fast ball at me even with a three two count never works !! ... HOME RUN everytime !!
( hope your cold shower and cold beer worked !! ) ...... anyone out there rode on the st louis light rail ??
I may have that R142 video of mines ready before you Salaam, not trying to out do you, but you will receive a copy in thanks for the Redbird one you sent me!
SEE MY WORK ON THE SITE, NOW SEE IT ON TV!
Trevor
Nope. You got the play all worng. See, the pitch was the same slider in the dirt you swung at before. Same pitch, same location, and for some odd reason, same result. You should have seen it coming that time.
Here comes the next pitch. You're down to your final strike. Now what?
-Hank
i dont swing at dirt pitches !! ( sorry ) ......!!!! BALL FOUR !!! ( oh well ).................
wrong hank the umpire already called strike three on you !! ........... ( now before the umpire throws you out of the game ).....
! go back to the dugout and sit down and be quiet !!!!!!!!!
question will you be there when the R-142 crow VIDIEO is shot by the # 1 one expert in this field .....ME !!!!
now hank put up or shut up and plesae you cant play litle league anymore you are supposed to be GROWN UP !!
My, my, we're full of ourselves, aren't we?
It's bottom of the ninth, buddy. No one on, you're down by 1 run. Two outs. You're the last hope for your team.
The play by play:
"Allah steps to the plate. The windup by Hank....Swing and a miss at a slider in the dirt. 0-1 on Salaam Allah, who leads the league this year in doublespeak and Rickey Henderson imitations."
"Hank goes back into his windup, and here's the pitch..."
"Will he swing at this one?"
-Hank
PS-I realize I didn't offeryou anything in return, as you offered a free video. So here's what I'll give you.
Respect.
response and hank throws the pitch t o salaam............ high fly ball into left field !!! going,,,,going...going,,,,GONE !!!!!!
HOME ... RUN..!!!!!! ( crowd noise )..... oh well hank even sandy koufax gave up home runs sometime !!
what vidieo did you want ??? WARNING !!!! my vidieos are the best !!! meet you at the R -142s crow eating
contest !!! .....otis redding & aretha once sang the song "" all i need is a litle respect ""
throwing a fast ball at me even with a three two count never works !! ... HOME RUN everytime !!
( hope your cold shower and cold beer worked !! ) ...... anyone out there rode on the st louis light rail ??
I may have that R142 video of mines ready before you Salaam, not trying to out do you, but you will receive a copy in thanks for the Redbird one you sent me!
SEE MY WORK ON THE SITE, NOW SEE IT ON TV!
Trevor
Nope. You got the play all worng. See, the pitch was the same slider in the dirt you swung at before. Same pitch, same location, and for some odd reason, same result. You should have seen it coming that time.
Here comes the next pitch. You're down to your final strike. Now what?
-Hank
i dont swing at dirt pitches !! ( sorry ) ......!!!! BALL FOUR !!! ( oh well ).................
03/29/2000
THE TRANSVERSE CAB CAR CLUB???????????
If there is such a club, I'll bet the older members reminice a lot about the good old days of the BMT Multi's, Bluebird, Zephry & Green Hornet. Those cars had transverse cabs, probably the first. And I'll bet the probably bitch about the cab and tight seating of the R-44 and that it probably was designed by the Marquis DeSade!!!
Bill Newkirk
do the transverse cabs rob valuable subway car space ??
03/30/2000
do the transverse cabs rob valuable subway car space ??
Maybe a seat or two and oh yes! standee room in front of the railfan window!
Bill Newkirk
check again- A lot more than that !!!!
Rain Delay..
SalaamAllah 3
142er's 0
rain delay..?
Depends. In the R44 and R46, Definately not. Having the transverse cabs in the A cars means one cab for 2 cars (=2 standard cabs, to allow the right math), instead of 4 cabs in 2 cars for all other equipment. The R68 are odd in that they've got a transverse cab and a normal cab(=3 cabs) which definately would rob pax space, just like the R62 in its current configuration. The R142 will go to A and B cars, so the fewer cabs will translate into more pax space as with the R44/46.
-Hank
put me into the transverse cab to shoot a railfan vidieo and its yours !!
Remember also, the LIRR MU's before the M-1's were all transverse cabs. The M-1 was the first LIRR car with railfan windows, although on the diesels a great place to stand and watch was on the last car platform when there was no rear locomotive.
ACCEPTED
Member of the TRANSVERESE CAB CLUB, INC.
RIGHT ON THIS FALL !!!!! meet you there in the fall new york city r-142 shoot a vidieo for the first time
on this train CHALLENGE ACCEPTED !! ( how did you like my vidieo brother? ) WILL EAT CROW !!!!!
would you lke a vidieo of my drum section.......... send me your address again ...free ! asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
03/28/2000
This sounds too good to be true.
Perhaps make Pigs the motorman to make it interesting!
Bill Newkirk
talk is cheap mr BILL NEWKIRK !!!! ( this fall call my bluff ) make my day !!!!
maybe you could put me inside the transverse cab this fall when i come to railfan vidieo again !!!!
03/28/2000
maybe you could put me inside the transverse cab this fall when i come to railfan vidieo again !!!!
I wish I could, not a motorman or TA employee. GOOD LUCK!
Bill Newkirk
ok i believe you ( this was a challenge to my flammers ) !!
>put me inside the transverse cab
>wish I could, not a motorman or TA employee
SalaamAllah 1
R-142ers 0
I'm beginning to wonder if your defect is as serious as Salamm's. As Bill points out, since he's not an employee, he can't do it. And no employee of the TA who wants to keep their job would allow unauthorized personel into the operators cab. To do anything of the sort, you would need to contact the TA's Government and Public Relations Dept. These are the same people who give out the regular photography permits. In order to get permission to film from a restricted area, you have to waive all rights to sue the City, State, MTA, TA and all its various entities while filming, AND pay for your own liability insurance, which is not a cheap proposition. The only exception to this is a special accomodation made to members of the press, which requires an official NYPD press card, and again, clearence from the Government/Public Relations Dept.
So if you want to go ahead and set this up, feel free. Be ready for lots of runaround, lots of paperwork, and lots of headache.
Otherwise, SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN!
-Hank (90 days from getting an NYPD press card :))
Score changed
SalaamAllah 1
R142ers 1
TIE GAME!
Trevor
I'm in the process of making a R142 video! Should be done by Mid-April. Any interested, I have done some really hot runbys of it racing at R29 and the trip cock test, many more shots to do and then editing and the distribution.
If you are interested, please lemme know and reserve your copy!
Trevor
trevor my soul brother !! put me inside the transverse cab and man LOOK OUT here i come !!!!!!!!
( can you do it ?? ) !!!!!!
I'm in negotiations on getting into a R142 cab, again!
Give me a bit!
Trevor
my e - mail is asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com I will give you all the time you need !!!
when i finish the worlds first RAILFAN-WINDOW-VIEW-VIDIEO-of the new R142s ,.....etc............
( and by the way will be happy to meet the owner or a VERY FINE TRANSIT WEBSITE ).......your transit website !!..
you then can tell all of the SUBTALKERS how much CROW that I ate !!!!! thank you, your brother SALAAMALLAH !
Ten days later, I read your response. The reference to the "Fastest ride through the 1967 Subway" is to the record I held in 1967 for the fastest ride thru the whole system according to the Class C qualifications of the Amateur NY Subway riding committee. It was 22 hours and 39 minutes, AND OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED BY THE NYCTA. I have 'talked to' the person who broke our record, on this site by the way.
B"H
Anyone know what happened this morning at Bowling Green? Sometime around 9am, I was in a crowded #4 in the tunnel a few signals away from BG, and the CR came on a few times to tell us that there was an 'unauthorized person' on the tracks. This went on for a good 15-20 mins. Did someone get hit? I tried to see what was going on on the platform as we came into the station, but couldn't see too much. You know how the Lex line is in the mornings....ugh!
People keep mentioning the Subway Control Centre and I was wondering what it consisted of. First of all I know that the subway mostly uses manned interlocking stations instead of CTC so what type of control does the control centre have? Is it a "paper" dispatching office where orders are sent to the towermen? Do they have computer CTC or track layout terminals that alows them to keep track of all the trains? Basically how does it work.
How would you compare PATH to the Subway interms of service, operation, rolling stock, customer service etc. Would you like PATH to be run like the Subway or the Subway to be run like the PATH? I for one happen to really like the PATH and I consider it to be one of the best transit systems in the country.
I like path in that they have a railfan window you can sit down and look out of. I also like the fact that conductors don't use cabs, there are rules against eating and drinking, and that the stations all look modern. The tunnels are nice and brightly lit. There are "straps" in even the newest cars. They are also always experimenting with new technologies on their cars, such as digital side destination signs showing the entire destination station name (which I think were removed from the two cars they were put on), the red LED side destination signs on cars 814 and 823 (or 824), and my favorite, the Washington DC style door closing sound on car 880.
Do not really think you can compair the two systems realisticly. The path system might run a little more efficantly but look at size between the two think that the NYC can hold it's own
[How would you compare PATH to the Subway interms of service, operation, rolling stock, customer service etc. Would you like PATH to be run like the Subway or the Subway to be run like the PATH? I for one happen to really like the PATH and I consider it to be one of the best transit systems in the country.]
PATH has some good points. The trains are much cleaner than on the subway, and it manages to do just fine with unstaffed stations. In both of those respects it could teach some needed lessons to the subway.
[PATH has some good points. The trains are much cleaner than on the subway, and it manages to do just fine with unstaffed stations. In both of those respects it could teach some needed lessons to the subway.]
The flip side is that PATH receives massive subsidies from the Port Authority, though it has some burdens of its own so it's hard to compare the relative efficiencies of the two systems.
[[PATH has some good points. The trains are much cleaner than on the subway, and it manages to do just fine with unstaffed stations. In both of those respects it could teach some needed lessons to the subway.]
[The flip side is that PATH receives massive subsidies from the Port Authority, though it has some burdens of its own so it's hard to compare the relative efficiencies of the two systems.]
PATH's fare box recovery ratio indeed is much worse than the subway's ratio. Exactly why, I'm not sure. It could be that PATH is operationally more like commuter rail than urban transit, in other words with high rush hour peaks and all the economic inefficiencies they bring. PATH's bargain $1 fare certainly is a factor. PATH also probably spends relatively higher amounts on maintenance, as can be seen in the far better cleanliness of its trains and stations. Finally, I _believe_ that Port Authority pay levels are well above those for similar jobs at the MTA.
None of this detracts from the fine job that PATH seems to be doing. And let's not forget that PATH's fare box recovery ratio would be even worse than it is if the Port Authority insisted on staffing all stations 24/7, subway-style.
Just wondering, Are PATH operators FRA certified?
[Just wondering, Are PATH operators FRA certified?]
PATH is FRA, so I assume the answer is yes
[PATH's fare box recovery ratio indeed is much worse than the subway's ratio. Exactly why, I'm not sure. It could be that PATH is operationally more like commuter rail than urban transit, in other words with high rush hour peaks and all the economic inefficiencies they bring. PATH's bargain $1 fare certainly is a factor. PATH also probably spends relatively higher amounts on maintenance, as can be seen in the far better cleanliness of its trains and stations. Finally, I _believe_ that Port Authority pay levels are well above those for similar jobs at the MTA.
None of this detracts from the fine job that PATH seems to be doing. And let's not forget that PATH's fare box recovery ratio would be even worse than it is if the Port Authority insisted on staffing all stations 24/7, subway-style.]
PATH also has a lower ratio of stations to ROW, serves few passengers making short hops, and runs short trains (7 small cars, if I remember correctly--talk about a good justification for OPTO!).
I couldn't agree more about the station staffing, though.
I won't make a blanket judgment either way, but I would like to mention that the PATH trains seem much roomier than both IRT and BMT/IND sized cars on the subway. I think this is partly because the space immediately adjacent to the doors (which are themselves wider) is *not* taken up by seats. (Is this for handicapped riders?) I think the NYC Subway would do better with this configuration. In rush hour, we're all jammed in like sardines. In non-rush hour, there are plenty of seats available. Removing some seating would make sense, no?
Or perhaps, as a frequent rider on the LEX, I am biased in terms of the sardine factor.
Can't wait for the 2nd Ave. subway!
KP
[I won't make a blanket judgment either way, but I would like to mention that the PATH trains seem much roomier than both IRT and BMT/IND sized cars on the subway. I think this is partly because the space immediately adjacent to the doors (which are themselves wider) is *not* taken up by seats. (Is this for handicapped riders?) I think the NYC Subway would do better with this configuration. In rush hour, we're all jammed in like sardines. In non-rush hour, there are plenty of seats available. Removing some seating would make sense, no?
Or perhaps, as a frequent rider on the LEX, I am biased in terms of the sardine factor.
Can't wait for the 2nd Ave. subway!]
The newer subway cars will have wider doors and fewer seats, so we'll see.
B division cars, which are much bigger than either IRT or PATH cars, should be roomier than they are; the stupid slant in the walls makes them smaller than they should be.
PATH cars also might seem roomier because of their large windows.
>----------< <---------->
Which of the above is longer , the left or the right?
The PATH cars have two current car styles of note, some with 2 door
portals and some with three door portals. Forgive my not knowing the exact desi for each. The two door has both laterial and side seating, while the three door job has only side seating. They both have the same foot print, and are close to the IRT foot print , the big windows cause a deception in perception. The final bottom line is , at best they are the equal to the IRT, and teensy weensy compared to the R/44,46,68,68a's
one man's opinion
avid
> The two door has both laterial and side seating, while the three
> door job has only side seating.
This used to be the case up to the early 80s but all PATH car classes now have only longitudinal (side) seats. The PA1 PA2 and PA3 (two door per side) car classes have space along side the doors on the inside but the PA4's (three doors per side) have the seats right up against the edge of the door.
Oh yeah, they did have forward-facing seats, didn't they!
I was about 4-5 years old when they were rebuilt, so I only have vague recollections of that.
The PA-1's were originally blue, right? And they didn't have door chimes?
I remember when my parents would take me on the PATH before the cars were rebuilt, I would have a hard time deciding between the "blue" trains (my favorite color at the time) or the "doorbell" trains.
Thanks for the update on the seating, as you can see my memory and most recent visit are grey and fuzzy around the edges.
avid
[PATH cars also might seem roomier because of their large windows.]
Something worth keeping in mind next time they design new cars. And they should get rid of those silly slanted sides.
The last of today's questions deals with the Second Ave. subway. The city appears to desperatly need it, but it is going to cost too much to build. I was wondering about a compromise. Is it worth sacrificing Second Ave, for the second ave subway. Because a tunnle is expensive, how about just putting the Subway in a trench. The sidewalks would remain and cross streets would have bridges, but there would be no more second ave. If this was proposed would you back it?
Whether I would back it or not is of no consequence. Property owners on Second Avenue would be unanimously opposed to the idea. If there was a trench that extended from sidewalk to sidewalk, how would emergency vehicles reach a point between two cross streets?
The Second Avenue subway doesn't "cost too much" to build. New York is a wealthy city in a wealthy country enjoying a period of prosperity. If not now, then when? I think it's a case of political will and setting priorities.
look at Metro North. You have a street that crosses over the tracks every 3 blocks
[Whether I would back it or not is of no consequence. Property owners on Second Avenue would be unanimously opposed to the idea. If there was a trench that extended from sidewalk to sidewalk, how would emergency vehicles reach a point between two cross streets?
The Second Avenue subway doesn't "cost too much" to build. New York is a wealthy city in a wealthy country enjoying a period of prosperity. If not now, then when? I think it's a case of political will and setting priorities.]
I couldn't agree more--if we diverted only 3% of NYC's budget for 10 years, we could build a full, four track Second Avenue Subway.
I don't think it would happen, but it would look pretty cool.
You have to remember than Second Avenue is a key truck and express bus route. It is needed for surface traffic.
If we can't afford to build on land, the only alternative I can think of is to use the rivers as transitways. As we've discussed many times, the TA could extend the Times Square Shuttle east (with an added stop at 6th Avenue), and the Flushing Line west, to ferry terminals. Then passengers willing to pay to avoid the Lexington Avenue crush could travel north-south on the rivers, then east-west into the heart of Midtown on this "crosstown" lines. Downtown is compact enough that the waterfront is within walking distance of the jobs.
Walk out piers every few blocks would serve as "stations" an the east river waterway, and private enterprenuers would run the service. Compared with the Second Avenue subway, piers for ferries would be cheap. The boats would be more expensive to operate than trains, and slower, but they would be more pleasant, and many people would be willing to pay a premium.
Has anybody considered an elevated? We know that they can be built quickly. The last one on 2nd Ave took only 2 years to build from start to finish.
[Has anybody considered an elevated? We know that they can be built quickly. The last one on 2nd Ave took only 2 years to build from start to finish.]
I remember someone proposing this a while back. But parts of Second Avenue are fairly fancy, and local businesses and residents would never stand for it. After all, 2nd Avenue became what it is today after they *removed* the el.
Just look at how much trouble they're having extending an existing el a few blocks to LGA . . .
Just look at how much trouble they're having extending an existing el a few blocks to LGA . . .
They've told the Astoria residents that new el's bear no resemblance to the old, dirty, noisy el's of old. Now if a really spiffy neighborhood like the Upper East Side were to get one - maybe the good residents of Astoria would suddenly think that el's are suddenly chic.
They should do what wanste management type companies do when the need to put a land fill near people. The residents of these host comminities get free waste removel for life and usually a cash pay off up front. The city should refund the residents who currently live on Second Ave. the inconvience cost of the EL. They could do this by just giving the people free monthly metro cards for as long as they live there. I'm not sure if the city should give the cards to the people or to the apartment because future residents would not have a subway sudden;y forced upon them (ie they knew it was there when they moved in), but if they stopped the offer the property values would go down.
An el would still reduce traffic capacity. Another alternative is monorails, with one rising from each sidewalk, not blocking the street. My Disney experience says these sure are quiet, and the single rail doesn't block out the sun.
But monorails would be unable to interface with the rest of the system, and the stations would be expensive to build. The Els were built before handicapped access.
An el would still reduce traffic capacity...
Not really. One could support the el on 75' beams that would clear the 70' wide avenue. One could also have the el entirely over the sidewalks - like the 3rd Ave El on the Bowery before it was placed in the middle of the street by the Dual Contracts.
A monorail really isn't necessary. Remember, this is to show those NIMBY's in Astoria that El's are IN. You don't want to use some alternative technology that would avoid your precious one seat ride to LGA, would you?
[They've told the Astoria residents that new el's bear no resemblance to the old, dirty, noisy el's of old. Now if a really spiffy neighborhood like the Upper East Side were to get one - maybe the good residents of Astoria would suddenly think that el's are suddenly chic.]
I recall reading a few years back about upper East Side residents protesting a proposed Duane Reade sign . . .
Yes, but that was on MADISON Ave.
[Yes, but that was on MADISON Ave.]
On Park Avenue, they protest about Tiffany signs.
A "fancy" concrete el was one of the alternatives considered in a study that compared that, light rail and the traditionally planned subway.
I cannot cite the study's name, however.
--Mark
There are three reasons why a new Second Avenue Elevated would NOT be viable:
1. NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard)
2. BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody)
3. LULU (Locally Undesirable Land Use)
Yes, a modern elevated would look nothing like its forbear. However, it would still BE there. For Upper East Siders, the train is to be (grudgingly) used when needed, and never seen, heard, or talked about otherwise.
For Upper East Siders, the train is to be (grudgingly) used when needed, and never seen, heard, or talked about otherwise...
So, let's spend the $13+ billion on citizens that appreciate rapid transit and would use it.
[So, let's spend the $13+ billion on citizens that appreciate rapid transit and would use it.]
Some 240,000 passengers a day would use it--many of them from other areas.
I think you have to be sensitive to local areas and local concerns. Look at what happens to Park Avenue where the el emerges at 97th Street: it goes from doorman to ghetto in the space of a block. Areas have been destroyed when the local el was removed, but the upscale parts of this one would be destroyed if the el were built. I don't think the city can afford to lose upscale residents or businesses, and I don't think entire neighborhoods should be trashed just to provide transit service (hear that, Robert Moses?).
Some 240,000 passengers a day would use it
Is that rush hour service?
...many of them from other areas.
How so? The line starts at 125th St and uses 10' wide cars. It can't run in the Bronx. It goes onto the BMT and terminates at either City Hall or Whitehall.
I think you have to be sensitive to local areas and local concerns....I don't think the city can afford to lose upscale residents or businesses, and I don't think entire neighborhoods should be trashed just to provide transit service
Time to rethink LGA access?
[[Some 240,000 passengers a day would use it]
Is that rush hour service?
[...many of them from other areas.]
How so? The line starts at 125th St and uses 10' wide cars. It can't run in the Bronx. It goes onto the BMT and terminates at either City Hall or Whitehall.]
I assumed on the basis of your $13 million figure that you were talking about a full length subway. The ridership estimate I gave is from the RPA's Metrolink proposal, which assumes a 2/4 track line and a link to the Bronx.
I don't know what ridership on the Stubway would be, but AFAIK it would cost on the order of $3.5 billion.
[[I think you have to be sensitive to local areas and local concerns....I don't think the city can afford to lose upscale residents or businesses, and I don't think entire neighborhoods should be trashed just to provide transit service]
Time to rethink LGA access?]
LGA access would extend an existing el a few blocks in Astoria; a Second Avenue el would affect miles of the country's most valuable real estate, in an area that changed rapidly from tawdry to exclusive when the original el came down.
Nobody wants a train running past their window, but it's easy to compensate a handful of people who are already sandwiched between an el and an airport. Even if they weren't compensated their loss would have no significant impact on their neighborhood or the City's economy.
Even if they weren't compensated their loss would have no significant impact on their neighborhood or the City's economy.
All citizens are equal but some are more equal than others - to parphrase Orwell.
Moses is alive and well and reincarnated.
BTW have you done any estimate as to the value of the real estate involved in any of the proposed routes - the number of people affected - even a rough ballpark estimate?
If nothing should be done if anyone is to be affected, then public works investments that improve the quality of life should only be made in developing suburbs. I'm glad we have one person on the board that agrees with national policy.
I'm glad we have one person on the board that agrees with national policy.
You are misinterpreting my remarks. I believe that the pro mass transit movement in this city has more to fear from implementing bad plans than from not implementing one. I gather from many of your postings that you feel that almost any project is better than none.
I thought I ask a fairly reasonable and easy question to answer: how many people and how much property and would be affected by building an elevated line. Any project can be held hostage by people with access to political clout, if nobody does this simple arithmetic. It is important to be able to judge the merit of their argument. One must accept their objections, if the evidence to refute them are not readily available.
A detailed analysis would be to use the block census data. A seat of the pants approach would be to use the census zip code or county data averages and extrapolate. However, you are not demonstrating how usefull the census is as a planning tool by not even considering to do such an analysis.
[A detailed analysis would be to use the block census data. A seat of the pants approach would be to use the census zip code or county data averages and extrapolate. However, you are not demonstrating how usefull the census is as a planning tool by not even considering to do such an analysis.]
While you addressed this to Larry rather than me, I'm the one who ruled out doing a more specific analysis and feel that I should expand a bit on my reasoning. Yes, the residents of the Silk Stocking District have more clout than others, particularly with Pataki--is it any accident that he gave them the stubway while ignoring everybody else? But that's really not the issue here. Given the history and nature of the neighborhood, rebuilding an el on Second Avenue is so far out of the question in terms of what's doable and desireable that I doubt very much it will ever be seriously discussed. So running the figures, while an interesting exercise, would be academic in terms of any real argument. I'd much rather devote the time to getting better figures on the inflow/outflow subsidy questions or digging up my estimates for the cost of automation, which I promised to do a long time ago and still haven't had time to get to.
Too many arguments, too little time?
[All citizens are equal but some are more equal than others - to parphrase Orwell.
Moses is alive and well and reincarnated.]
Well, as they say, life isn't fair. Park Avenue gets extra trash collection, Harlem gets Sewage Treatment State Park. The fact remains that the City would be nuts to destroy a hugely valuable asset (and will probably end up offering compensation to affected parties in Astoria).
[BTW have you done any estimate as to the value of the real estate involved in any of the proposed routes - the number of people affected - even a rough ballpark estimate?]
No. It would be interesting and I'm sure it would be impressive, but it would take some time to gather the necessary information and it doesn't strike me as a calculation that requires specific enumeration. It's an extraordinarily dense area, though--check out the RPA's density map.
[You have to remember than Second Avenue is a key truck and express bus route. It is needed for surface traffic.
If we can't afford to build on land, the only alternative I can think of is to use the rivers as transitways. As we've discussed many times, the TA could extend the Times Square Shuttle east (with an added stop at 6th Avenue), and the Flushing Line west, to ferry terminals. Then passengers willing to pay to avoid the Lexington Avenue crush could travel north-south on the rivers, then east-west into the heart of Midtown on this "crosstown" lines. Downtown is compact enough that the waterfront is within walking distance of the jobs.
Walk out piers every few blocks would serve as "stations" an the east river waterway, and private enterprenuers would run the service. Compared with the Second Avenue subway, piers for ferries would be cheap. The boats would be more expensive to operate than trains, and slower, but they would be more pleasant, and many people would be willing to pay a premium.]
I have a completely untested theory which says that people will usually take the fastest route even if it means sardine can conditions--just look at the relative loading between locals and expresses, which save at most a few minutes of travel time. But that aside, we could build something on the East Side under/alongside the FDR for the $700 million we're spending not to build the 2nd Avenue Spurway. Surface rail is cheap, comparatively speaking. It could easily achieve 80 mph average speeds, and could offer superexpress and local service on two tracks by using high speed switches. The line could be automated, or it could be bulit using people mover technology with slightly lower average speeds, and it could be upgraded to handle heavy iron (in which case you'd probably want to tunnel out of GCT, under Lex or Madison, and head East in the 30's--that way the tunnel could serve double duty, bringing Metro North trains downtown and linking GCT to Amtrak and NJT via Penn Station).
AFAIK an extension of the shuttle would cost a small fortune, maybe $750 million assuming there's room to get it past the Lex and the L. Look at the billion dollars they're quoting to extend the #7! The only way I can think of to circumvent that would be to link the new line (or the ferries) into the #7, which should have a stop in that area anyway (or maybe a 0th-1st for the new line and the UN, then a 2nd-3rd for the 2nd Avenue Subway).
Then too, you could combine that #7 stop with a quick and dirty busway. Problem is, when you add in the extra transfer people will probably get lazy and stay on the Lex . . .
Another possiblity--take two of the shuttle tracks, then dip down at 42nd Street and run right onto the Broadway express! That would mean running A division cars on the B division, which is a bit wasteful, but it would cost next to nothing. You'd have to really keep the speed up though to compete with the Lexington Avenue, particularly given the way the BMT creeps at its southern end.
Easy answer to reduce the crash on the LEX.
1. remove all unused cabs in the r-62's
[Easy answer to reduce the crash on the LEX.
1. remove all unused cabs in the r-62's]
Too true. Not sure it's that easy, tho'!
I was thinking of a similar idea. Instead of attempting to build a tunnel under second ave a little bit at a time, close the entire ave and then build the subway. It would probably save a few years if construction companies did not have to worry about the cars.
It would probably save a few years if construction companies did not have to worry about the cars.
Now if everybody else would just close their eyes and count to 100...
Business owners would never go for it, having already endured the "second avenue washboard" back in the early 70s.
--Mark
My brother-in-law remembers when 2nd Ave. was all torn up during construction back then. It's a byproduct of cut-and-cover construction.
[My brother-in-law remembers when 2nd Ave. was all torn up during construction back then. It's a byproduct of cut-and-cover construction.]
*****IF***** the Second Avenue line is ever built, it surely would be constructed by means of deep tunnelling rather than cut-and-cover. Neighborhood opposition would permit nothing else. From what I've heard, construction of the 63rd Street line in the 1970's was an unmitigated disaster for anyone in the vicinity. Memories may be shorter than we sometimes think, but even so no one will ever permit cut-and-cover in Manhattan.
(So no one will ever permit cut-and-cover in Manhattan).
Perhaps they should go with my alternative -- build the Second Avenue Subway with no Manhattan stations outside the Central Business District. You'd hook it up with the Pelham Bay Line. The Second Avenue (two tracks) would stop at 116th Street, then zip from there down to an express stop at 68th (where one link would branch off), stop in the 40s and 50s in Midtown, than zip down to Grand Street and on to Lower Manhattan. No stations with deep tunneling means no street disruption. Everyone from the Bronx and East Harlen would presumably ride the Second Avenue or the Lex Express.
Meanwhile, you'd turn the Lex local around at 125th for the exclusive use of those traveling within Manhattan. Those traveling from the Bronx to the Upper East Side would transfer at 125th.
Perhaps they should go with my alternative -- build the Second Avenue Subway with no Manhattan stations outside the Central Business District.
If the subway will have no stops outside the CBD then it should go under Central Park and avoid your hated NIMBY's altogether.
(Go under Central Park) -- that's a thought, except the area that needs more service is East Midtown.
(Go under Central Park) -- that's a thought, except the area that needs more service is East Midtown.
How will a line that is planned to run south from 125th St and turn west on 63rd St to join the 6th Ave and Bway lines provide more service in East Midtown?
By freeing up some of the capacity of the Lex.
Oh, the NIMBYs will find you even in Central Park -- in fact, unless you deep tunnel drilled with no obvious excavations at all within the park, the NIMBYs would be even worse than tunning down a main avenue.
The Great Playground Controversy of the early 1970s with the 63rd St. tunnel was caused by not just your average run-of-the-mill-NIMBYs, but stinkin'-rich-NIMBYs-who-know-people-on-the-editorial-board-of-the-New-York-Times, and they made the MTA promise to put back every blade of grass moved and built an even better playground than the one that had to be torn up near 59th St. You would have thought they were trying to put a radioactive waste dump under the park with all the howling that went on, so I doubt the MTA would ever think about a line through the park again.
True, the stubway won't serve East Midtown. That's one of the problems, and issues with the full length line. Everyone going to the Grand Central area would still be on the Lex.
[True, the stubway won't serve East Midtown. That's one of the problems, and issues with the full length line. Everyone going to the Grand Central area would still be on the Lex. ]
It looks like the MTA has revised the plans, now the Stubway is called the first phase.
Arti
...they made the MTA promise to put back every blade of grass moved and built an even better playground than the one that had to be torn up near 59th St
Let's see if I remember correctly. The playground was leveled to be used as an staging area, not because it was along the ROW. The playground was less than 5 years old. It had been a gift to the city by the Hecksher Foundation. A Hecksher decendent, August Hecksher, was the current Parks Commissioner. The TA was very slow about restoring the Park, when construction moved onto E 63rd St.
Maybe an El would have less impact, if the TA is not required to put back every blade of grass. :-)
Right, it was a brand new playground, and still the well-connected NIMBYs raised a major howl about destroying their kids' play site. It was interesting that a few years later when the Metropolitan Museum or Art began its expansion behand the original building into the park at 82nd St., none of these people were as vocal, probably because A. -- It wasn't their neighborhood; B. -- They were either frequent patrons of the museum and/or part of the soical circle that uses MOMA for elite functions; and C. -- They were not frequent patrons and/or part of the non-elite social circle that uses the subway, espically a line that would be going to Queens.
An annuoncement of an el through Central Park would have been a great April Fool's gag.
Judging by the TV people that fell for the April Fool's parade report, if someone had come up with a formal enough press release from City Hall or the MTA ("Our designers have made sure the line will follow the path of the East Side roadway," MTA spokesman Joe Hoffman said. "We will only be putting the line over already paved surfaces, so no lawns or trees will be damaged...") they probably would have bought that, too.
How about building a single track Northbound on 1 avenue From Bowery To 125 St and Southbound on 2 avenue from 125th street south to bowery.
Well I really don't think its practical, it would cost alot more than just one on Second but if it was to be done you should reverse the directions so it would be the opposite of the buses.
Maybe they should just build an elevated. It's a lot cheaper than building a subway.
Makes you wish they hadn't razed the 3rd Av El, doesn't it?
My friends are telling me(because I am the only Railfan in Cardozo), that they saw this new Train. One says it was on the J one time, and I have another confirmed sighting on the L lately. like yesterday they said. What makes me think that it is a R-143 is that they say it was so quiet and it didn't look like an average J Train(R-42). They say it is black and different and the interior looks nothing like a NYC subway Car. Anyone can confirm this please post a response.
Your friends have seen the R-110B.
Had to be, because the R-143 exists only on paper and in peoples' minds.
The R-110B is a significant departure from standard NYCTA equipment (although quite similar in external appearance to the R-44/46).
We went through this about two months ago when someone said there was a new car consist on the Eastern Division while the C was stopped due to the WTC switch repains. It would have to be the R-110B if it was anything, but it turned out that the 110B was tucked safely in its nest at 207th St. If anyone was on the Eighth Ave. line today, they might know if the train is still running there.
At about 3:30 PM I passed 207st Yd. on the Bx12 and saw the 110B.
I don't know about R143, but I'll tell you one thing, I have spotted R142s and R142As on the "A" line.
Last week I spotted a 10 car set of R142s (Bombardier) just south of the Howard Beach Station, parked on the southbound express track approximately 11:00 am.
Just yesterday morning (3/28/00), I spotted a 10 car set of R142As (Kawasaki) parked at the same location. This was at 10:15 am.
if this is true,someone get pictures of this and put them up
03/30/2000
I don't know about R143, but I'll tell you one thing, I have spotted R142s and R142As on the "A" line
Yes, they are testing the R-142's on the flats, this is true.
The R-143 has not been built let alone touched NYCTA rails yet.
Bill Newkirk
I rode past the 207th Street Yard today on the Bx12, and no R110B was in the yard! Unless it was inside, Doubt it! Probably was on the eastern division, AGAIN!
Trevor
Trevor--- you just said that the r 110b's might be running on the eastern division AGAIN... i assume you are referring to a post several months ago when you reported riding on the r-110b's coming back from çanarise to manhattan... i vividly remember that post, as you commented that you never made such good time... from other people's reports of the whereabouts of the r-110b's at the time of your trip on them, i would assume that you were playing a little prank... within the last week or so, you have reported riding the r-142's and taking pictures in them... are all these sightings and trips on the
r-142's also pranks???.. you have a real credibility issue here......
Dave has posted the pictures he took of the R142. Either he took them, or he's got some real talent with Photoshop.
-Hank
I am a motorman on the E line, and yesterday the R-110B pass me going to Brooklyn around 10:22. Last week Isaw it in the barn at 207 yard. One thing Idid notice was that two of the cars had the same trucks as the R-142 has. I guess this was the first test of the German built trucks for the new cars. As for the R-143, are they going to be 67 or 6o feet?
Popular question, I don't know if it's made the FAQ yet. According to most accounts, the 143 will be 60' size, not 67'. While the longer car certainly makes sense, there is perhaps the possibility that the BMT eastern division will see 9-car trains, as the 143 will likely be built with A and B cars like the 142, instead as married pairs which limit your train length options to even numbers.
I know the Canarsie line could handle a train of 9 67' standards, it's been mentioned here a dozen times or so.
-Hank
R143 will have 60 feet per car not 67 & will have four cars set with ATO & will be on L line in 2001 or 2002.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
R143 will have 60 feet per car not 67 & will have four cars set with ATO & will be on L line in 2001 or 2002.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
NYCTransiTrans Gallery Page
The Canarsie line station cannot accomidate more than 8 60ft cars. Nine AB's would not have fit in none of the stations on the line. Nine AB's would not be able to turn back at 8 Avenue because the train would not be able to clear the switches.
Maximum train length in the days of the BMT standards was 8 cars. All BMT stations were originally built to accommodate such trains. Southern Division platforms were subsequently lengthened to handle 10-car trains of 60-footers while Eastern Division station length was unchanged.
A standard was 67' long. 8x67=536'. 9x60=540'.
4' is the cab at each end of the train. A little jiggering of the stop cards, no problem.
-Hank
The 110Bs are 67feet long
That they are, and they are a 9-car train, currently with 6 cars operational. The 143 (as has been much discussed) will be 60' cars.
-Hank
Whats the interior layout like, same just no doorside standing?
avid
Canarsie line stations are on the average 536' to 560' long; they can hold eight BMT Standards @ 67' per car; the R110B (R131) is a 67-foot car.
Wayne
So like I said, 9 60' cars wouldn't be a problem.
-Hank
Did they ever run 9-car trains of R-7/9s, R-10s, or R-16s on the Canarsie? 8 cars seemed to be the standard length for trains of 60-footers, and I remember riding on 7-car trains of R-7/9s in 1969-70.
What do you mean when you say the R110B was probably running on the eastern division again? Do you have photographs, dates and time of day handy so it can be confirmed? Was it there in the first place? In service? Testing components and not in service? The R110B has not run in the easern divison or any other place other than the C line recently for a host of reasons: only 6 cars @67' availiable. Can't be used in the rush because of low capacity, no conductor boards for them in the east, nobody qualified to operate them in the east for RTO & car equipment, no spare parts in ENYD for the cars as they are at 207 St. barn and on the 3 spare cars. Maybe you saw them running in the eastern division in your dreams! After a particularly bad day on the E line, I have nightmares about it!
I saw the R-142 (or perhaps the R-110A?) running over the Williamsburg Bridge eastbound as I was on a J trying to ride the subway alphabetically. BTW, I didn't succeed, the M was running as far as Myrtle only and I had to pick up a J for the rest of the route to Canal for the N.
If the R110B ever ran on the Eastern division, then someone in here would be able to confirm it in the MTA's records. Since nobody has, I don't think any of these "sightings" are credible.
Your friends are: (take your choice)
1) Pulling your chain.
2) Smoking some really heavy stuff.
3) Just plain full of crap.
There is NO SUCH thing as an R143 yet. It has NOT been built yet.
My friends are telling me(because I am the only Railfan in Cardozo), that they saw this new Train. One says it was on the J one time, and I have another confirmed sighting on the L lately. like yesterday they said. What makes me think that it is a R-143 is that they say it was so quiet and it didn't look like an average J Train(R-42). They say it is black and different and the interior looks nothing like a NYC subway Car. Anyone can confirm this please post a response. on the J, L and M lines it has been sighted
Oom-possible. The cars have not been constructed yet.
David
so do u think what I saw could have been a R110b? I thought they were outta service
R-110B is assigned to the "C" line out of 207th Street
My friends are telling me(because I am the only Railfan in Cardozo), that they saw this new Train. One says it was on the J one time, and I have another confirmed sighting on the L lately. like yesterday they said. What makes me think that it is a R-143 is that they say it was so quiet and it didn't look like an average J Train(R-42). They say it is black and different and the interior looks nothing like a NYC subway Car. Anyone can confirm this please post a response. on the J, L and M lines it has been sighted
Could some body tell me on all R32/38 what are all the letters they have including terminals.
What decides when the #5 goes where? Sometimes it goes to 238th St, and other times it goes to Dyre Ave, sometimes it ends at Bowling Green, and other times it goes all the way to Flatbush Ave.
Is rush hour the deciding factor?
Rush Hour is the deciding factor!!!!
Trevor
I think heypaul is in charge of it.
Seriously, the 5 has a few different routings. Rush hours, it runs from Flatbush Ave in Brooklyn to either Dyre Ave or E238st in the Bronx, via the Lexington Ave Express, and peak direction express in the Bronx. All other times, unless there's work underway, it runs from Bowling Green to Dyre Ave, express in Manhattan, local in the Bronx.
-Hank
Don't forget that the south terminal is East 180th Street during the midnight hours.
The #5 train is NYCTA's version of MBTA's Green Line - you never know where or how far the next train will go.
Since I live along the 5 line, I think I should comment, old friend. The 5 has multiple terminals to choose from, particularly during the rush hours. Trains can operate to New Lots, Flatbush, or Utica Avs, as well as Bowling Green southbound. Northbound, trains terminate at Dyre Av or 238th St. Trains will also start or end runs at East 180th St, for movements to or from the yard. Also, trains travelling to or from Utica and New Lots Avs will in most cases head into the Yard located at the end of the line.
Confused? During a general order, a 5 has been known to travel on both the east and west side via the South Ferry Loop. How many other routes do that. I can head to Dyre Av from Bowling Green, by heading around the loop.
Need I say more? How about this for a strange scenario: Did you know that there is one 2 train in the morning that travels from to Utica Av, turns north, and becomes a 5 and travels to 238th St via Lexngton Av! Unusual things really do happen....
-Stef
Stef,
I really am lost now. I was confused by the two terminals in the Bronx, but thought that once past Bowling Green, all 5's went to Flatbush Ave. Are you saying that some 5's go to the 4 terminal at Utica Ave?
Do you live on the right-of-way of the old NYW&B? I have the book Westchester's Forgotten Railway, and find that section of the system really fascinating. I never got up there, and have always regretted not seeing that operation when I was such a fan back in the late 1940's and early 1950's. I understand that in the old days the NYCTS used Manhattan's version of the gate cars to service that part of the line that they still used. I assume that since the 5 is the only train serving Dyre Ave, that at least every other 5 has to go to Dyre.
Yes, before the Dyre Ave. line was tied into the rest of the IRT, a shuttle service was operated using gate cars. Fares were collected on the train. In addition, although the line operated IRT-sized equipment, it was operated by IND personnel.
IIRC, the Dyre Ave. line was tied into the IRT system in 1957.
It sure sounds as if I should have gotten up there before I left the city.
Just as I should have made the effort to ride on a Nostalgia Train, especially the Triplex train, before heading out to Colorado.
Need I say more? How about this for a strange scenario: Did you know that there is one 2 train in the morning that travels from to Utica Av, turns north, and becomes a 5 and travels to 238th St via Lexngton Av! Unusual things really do happen....
I liked that one. When I was posting as a TO, that was one of the jobs I had. It actually is a midnight job (last trip), and the crew never knows until Atlantic Ave which way they will be going.
My friends in school told me that they saw this New looking L Train. This Train they said was quiet. They missed it, but they were unaware that it was there, because It looked brand new and it didn't make a sound leaving the station, and its tail end looked different than an R-42 or R-40. They said it doesn't look like an average L Train and other passengers noticed. If U know anything about this, please help me out, by posting a Response. Thank you
Till we meet again,
Happy Railfanning!!!!
Considering that the R143 hasn't even been built yet, i can defintately say that what you saw was NOTan R143.
-Hank
As I'm sure you've been told, the R143 hasn't been built yet.
This came up on the Bus side and I thought I'd answer for Station Agents.
we get five bottoms. females get a choice of any mix of skirts, pants, culottes( males just pants but there is a move for the bus side to allow shorts for summer), six short sleeve shirts, six long sleeve shirts, two sweater vests, one long sleeve sweater, one three season jacket which has a liner than can be worn alone or with the coat or just the coat. We also get one summer hat (the conductor hat) and one winter hat (the so-called russian hat.)
Guys get clip on ties in with or without a "railroad print"(a train car). Girls get either scarves or bow ties-- in a choice of railroad print or plain.(total of six in any combination.)
Dress code: we must wear the sweater or sweater vest and tie except between May 1 and September 30 when they are optional.Hats are optional except for "special assignments" or Traffic control (gates) where they are mandatory. Of course if weather conditions inside the booth are extreme (such as no air) we can ask permission from supervision to remove the sweater or sweater vest...
Shoes: flat, skid resistant, no open shoes,no canvas or running type shoes.( both genders.)
Other items such as colored scraves are forbidden but many will wear them anyway (and risk the wrath of supervision. We can be written up for no tie. Thankfully the two times I forgot mine the supervisor just asked)
The current uniform contract holder is Gale-Sobel from St. Louis.
We order uniforms from what looks like an ATM machine. We can buy extra items (more shirts, bottoms, etc.) and charge to a credit card.
jackets,hats and sweaters are to last five years and tops and bottoms last three years.
Today's USA TODAY has a neat piece about L.A. commuters,
who are fed up with gas prices and have discovered
the Metrolink system. You need to scroll
down a bit for the piece. The version in the print
edition is longer, with a mention of "railroad rage" -
regular riders who dislike the newcomers.
It sounds like USA Today has recycled a piece from the Los Angeles Times published last week. (Common media practice.) I'm happy that Metrolink is experiencing an increase in ridership, without an earthquake to bring it about.
los angeles metrolink has been called by many here as the ""rich white folks rail transit "............
look man !!! dont get mad at me !! understand how bus riders feel on old outdated buses etc........
and this red line subway to nowhere ( they put it in the most useless places )
the blue line......... WAS DONE RIGHT !!!! .......... the green line........... DOES NOT GO INTO THE AIRPORT ......
then you have this metrolink ........... it goes to bring in the white flignt types not just post earthquake commuters !!!!
I wish the USA today would have delt with the transit dependent abandoned los angeles california victims
of a transit agency gone mad THE MYTH OF PUBLIC TRANSIT IN LOS ANGELES # 5 !!!...............................
You complain about people sending you racist e-mail. If you don't like people who spout racist crap, then STOP DOING IT YOURSELF!
its even on talk radio here !! the metrolink rail system has been called ""rich white folks pork""
and yes even by white transit riders of the red blue green and bus riders and the bus riders union of
los angeles !! whats up mr oink !! oink !! sorry bit you missed the boat on this one i am in total control
here know everything about what i last posted !! dont believe me ???? come here and find out for yourslf !!
What salaamallah said about Metrolink being "rich white folks transit" is VERY TRUE. salaamallah did not make it up -- read on.
I live out here in southern California, and that saying has been reported in the major newspapers and radio and television. Usually the context of it is when they are doing reports on how people of the "inner city" are stuck with riding overcrowded buses and the Blue/Green Lines while the Metrolink trains deal with the "rich white folks" frm the suburbs.
If anyone is being "racist" about this particular issue, it is the news media of southern California, not salaamallah. He is merely repoting what has already been publicly said/broadcast/printed out here.
i would like to thank you for clearing up what i have heard ( even on talk radio ) and in the media here
and in print nad in the transit riders unions here in southern california !!!
some of the east coast subtalkers do not understand the many different dynamics out here on the west coast !!!
we have many pronlems here not having a rail system (s) we once had !! many problems exhist here trying
to have some kind of replacement to what we once had a long time ago !!! thank you mr hoskins !!
How many times does the B train (West End) switch tracks between 36th St. & 9th Ave stations in Brooklyn ? It seems like about 3 or 4 times.
I believe it is twice. (correct me if I'm wrong).
That curve entering the 4th Avenue tunnel is a real doozie - I'm surprised the 75-footers can clear it.
Wayne
Went into the Museum Exhibit the other day (is there an 'Andy' here with a boy about 4?) to find out what the 'What is it?' was. (A sleet scraper for a tolley pole. It was displayed upside-down)
On my way through, I picked up the new (March 2000) 'The Map' This is the new tourist version. The cover is slightly pink/purple compared to the regular, and the LIRR/MNCR map has shrunk so that multiple 'Getting Around's could be included. Languages include English (with a GB flag representing it), Chinese, French, German, Italian, Korean, Japanese, Spanish, and maybe Portugese, I'm not sure (bus is 'onibus', railroads is 'ferrovias', and connections is 'conexoes' With a ^ over the O in onibus and a ~ over the O in conexoes)
Otherwise, I see no changes. Everything except the service patterns and the 'who to call' sections are in all 9 languages.
-Hank
[...and maybe Portugese, I'm not sure (bus is 'onibus', railroads is 'ferrovias', and connections is 'conexoes' With a ^
over the O in onibus and a ~ over the O in conexoes)]
That's portuguese. I don't know many Brazilians that use "ferrovias," or at least I never use it, I just say "trem," or train.
[Went into the Museum Exhibit the other day (is there an 'Andy' here with a boy about 4?) to find out what the 'What is it?' was. (A sleet scraper for a tolley pole. It was displayed upside-down)
On my way through, I picked up the new (March 2000) 'The Map' This is the new tourist version. The cover is slightly pink/purple compared to the regular, and the LIRR/MNCR map has shrunk so that multiple 'Getting Around's could be included. Languages include English (with a GB flag representing it), Chinese, French, German, Italian, Korean, Japanese, Spanish, and maybe Portugese, I'm not sure (bus is 'onibus', railroads is 'ferrovias', and connections is 'conexoes' With a ^ over the O in onibus and a ~ over the O in conexoes)
Otherwise, I see no changes. Everything except the service patterns and the 'who to call' sections are in all 9 languages.]
Glad to hear that. It seems to me that the entire system should be as tourist friendly as possible . . .
I attended the Rebuilding New York conference today. Robert Caro merely went over the thesis of his book, that the era when Robert Moses could evict hundreds of thousands of people with total disregard for local concerns, in the name of regional objectives, was terrible because neighborhoods were destroyed.
He didn't address the past 30 years at all. Therefore, he failed to deal with the fact that we have gone 180 degrees the other way to the opposite stupidity, with himself as the poet laurate of NIMBY. I think the term "Rip Van Winkle Liberal" -- a person that fell asleep in 1973 and hasn't noticed anything that has happened since -- applies, unfortunately to Mr. Caro.
It was left to Jim Lebenthal, the muni-bond dealer and infrastructure advocate, to say (in a later panel) that perhaps Mr. Caro was a little unbalanced in his portrayal of these issues.
No surprise -- he won a Pulizer for the book and has had his ego stroked about it for the past quarter century. His books on LBJ have brought him nowhere near the praise (unlike Moses, Johnson still has former aides who are alive and well to defend him, including people like Bill Moyers who would normally be a Caro ally), so it would take a lot of guts (along with courage and self-awareness) to go back in now and admit he may have gone a bit overboard on his case against the man.
That doesn't mean Moses wasn't an arrogant jerk in his later years -- if he was less so, the 1964-65 World's Fair might not have been such a financial disaster -- but you can't blame him for everything bad that happened in New York from 1938-68. Maybe the Cross-Bronx Expressway did cause the decline in the south-central Bronx, but the Henry Hudson Parkway doesn't seem to have killed off Riverdale, and they were both Moses creations.
[That doesn't mean Moses wasn't an arrogant jerk in his later years -- if he was less so, the 1964-65 World's Fair might not have been such a financial disaster -- but you can't blame him for everything bad that happened in New York from 1938-68. Maybe the Cross-Bronx Expressway did cause the decline in the south-central Bronx, but the Henry Hudson Parkway doesn't seem to have killed off Riverdale, and they were both Moses creations.]
Moses gets a bad rap. One need not agree with everything he did or proposed, but it's hard to imagine the City functioning without his projects, and at the time he built most of them, anyone who suggested building new trains instead of highways would have been laughed off the stage.
Moreover, I agree that the way he did things was wrong, but the way things are today is equally wrong in the other direction. Caro didn't address that.
Larry, since you were there:
Was there a Q&A?
Did anyone bring up your issues?
If not, what issues were brought up?
If so, what did he say?
(Was there a Q&A? Did anyone bring up your issues? If not, what issues were brought up? If so, what did he say?)
Caro's presentation started late and went on longer than expected. As keynote speaker, I'm not sure he was expected to take questions, but as soon as he finished everyone was instructed to head to the "breakout sessions."
If given a chance, I would have asked him something like this -- "The situation you describe, with tens of thousands of people evicted with no thought of local concern, couldn't or shouldn't happen today. On the other hand, virtually nothing has been built in New York since you wrote your book, the MTA is planning to spend five years and $700 million just to meet the procedural requirements for a Second Avenue Subway, and it can take as long as five years and millions of dollars -- between the review process and the lawsuits -- just to build a new supermarket in New York City on a lot where no one is displaced. What do you have to say about the situation today?"
Jim Lebenthal, the bond salesman, addressed these issues indirectly in his session, saying that perhaps Caro was not appreciative enough of the value of public works. Another session focused on all the things that can't be done today -- expanding the airports, building new ports, building a ferry terminal at LaGuardia -- because of environmental objections.
This week's New York Observer has a piece of Caro, and how he supported Giuliani for mayor, but is upset about his current battle over the recent police shootings.
It doesn't have anything directly to say about transit, but you can summise that Caro was not happy with the city's situation in 1993 and/or 1997 if he backed Giuliani over Dinkins and Messinger.
(Caro backed Giuliani)
Giuliani didn't let him down. We haven't built anything.
[Moreover, I agree that the way he did things was wrong, but the way things are today is equally wrong in the other direction. Caro didn't address that.]
True. There seems to be such a reaction to automobile traffic now, though, with highways coming down in Boston and San Franscisco. Perhaps if there were a more direct connection between road use and costs we wouldn't have such a mess; those who used the infrastructure would pay for reasonably uncrowded roads and pollution above Federal limits; the added travel costs would discourage sprawl and encourage mass transit use.
I read in the Times the other day that European drivers take on average half as many trips as Americans. Interestingly enough, the length of the average trip was the same (about 7 mi, if I remember correctly), which pretty much wipes out the assumption I used to have that Americans drove more because of the greater distances between our cities. The difference in number of trips results from the gas tax, which pushes gas to $4/gallon in Europe. I don't favor anything that extreme, but we seem to be at the opposite end of the spectrum, with inadequate road facilities financed partly by general revenues.
Have you ever heard the expression: "Generals always fight the last war"?
[I attended the Rebuilding New York conference today. Robert Caro merely went over the thesis of his book, that the era when Robert Moses could evict hundreds of thousands of people with total disregard for local concerns, in the name of regional objectives, was terrible because neighborhoods were destroyed.
He didn't address the past 30 years at all. Therefore, he failed to deal with the fact that we have gone 180 degrees the other way to the opposite stupidity, with himself as the poet laurate of NIMBY. I think the term "Rip Van Winkle Liberal" -- a person that fell asleep in 1973 and hasn't noticed anything that has happened since -- applies, unfortunately to Mr. Caro.]
You'd think that Caro would have realized the narrowness of his viewpoint from simple personal experience. He's probably the same Robert A. Caro that switchboard.com shows on Central Park West (and may very well be the Robert A. Caro with a place in East Hampton). Unless he's the sort of upper-class New Yorker who travels exclusively by taxi and limousine, he must from time to time have to deal with the subway. Doesn't he see firsthand how the system is in need of modernization? And when he's driving his Navigator or Range Rover out to East Hampton, he surely sees the inadequacy of the area's highway system. I fail to understand how he can remain so resolutely opposed to infrastructure growth. Maybe he's just too embarrassed to admit he was wrong.
I was just wondering what happened to Jim Lebenthal...haven't seen him on those TV commercials lately.
www.forgotten-ny.com
It isn't fair to say that Caro is "the poet laureate of NIMBY." Maybe he's changed his tune very recently, but C-Span broadcast a lecture he gave at the 92d St. Y last year in which Caro explicitly stated how difficult it is to get anything constructed in NY today. He even cited statistics on the small number of miles of modern highway built before and after Moses as compared to during his reign. And he didn't seem at all happy about the state of the city's infrastructure, especially its mass transit infrastructure.
Of course, if it weren't for Moses--who consistently starved mass transit while using drastic measures to build highways--people in NY wouldn't be so paranoid about large infrastructure projects. That is, when the public gets accustomed to the notion that mass transit is undeserving of funding and that *any* construction project is the result of outside bullying, perhaps it isn't so hard to understand why NIMBYism thrives in NYC.
The remarks here have been so uniformly anti-Caro, more or less, that I think we need to put this in some perspective.
Those of us who were researching before Caro put out his book (and the earlier New Yorker article) know that Caro revealed a great deal of truth about Moses that the majority of people were unfamiliar with. Until Caro's book, Moses was mostly spoken of in admiring terms and what few books were written about him were essential puff pieces or admiring.
I've read the book through at least twice in the three decades or so since it was published and excerpts from time to time. If, on balance, it is too critical it is a corrective to Moses' iconic image up until that time. I find the book to be much more balanced than modern critics allow--I was impressed by the fact that, for example, Caro impresses us with Moses' idealism and pretty well refutes the common conception among his critics that he created his works for mercenary purposes.
I can't speak for what has happened with Caro since publication--evidently it is the high pointof the writers' career and he may be imprisioned by his success as the chief Moses critic.
For my own part, though I've researched and written on transit issues, I try to keep an open mind on "opposition" issues, otherwise my own adocacy loses value. I'm impressed by the considerable good Moses did, but we need to understand he did it at a considerable price.
As Dinky mentioned, Moses practically invented NIMBYs. We have a long tradition of individual rights in the U.S., including property rights. Moses was not the first, but he greatly expanded the use of government power to do whatever he (and those like him) wanted. When a bit of this power was transferred back to the public, no wonder they became NIMBYs. To paraphrase Mark Twain: "When a cat once sits on a hot griddle, he'll never sit on one again. And he won't sit on a cold griddle either."
[Moses was not the first, but he greatly expanded the use of government power to do whatever he (and those like him) wanted. When a bit of this power was transferred back to the public, no wonder they became NIMBYs. To paraphrase Mark Twain: "When a cat once sits on a hot griddle, he'll never sit on one again. And he won't sit on a cold griddle either."]
Good point. I can think of numerous parallel situations: look at Penn Station and the landmarks law, or businesses that, after dumping pollutants for years, now complain vociferously about onerous environmental regulations.
On Wednesday night at aroung 6PM, A worker at the Transit Museum saw smoke and flames coming from the roof of car "G". A light socket with faulty wiring was the cause. The fire department was called to put out the blaze. Car "G" now has a hole burned through it's ceiling to the roof as well as smoke damage. Mike Hanna told me that this happened because of the lack of preventitive maintenence, Such as replacing frail wire or wire held together with tape, etc.
WHAT is a ""G"" CAR ?? can it be restored and how bad was the damage ?????
Car "G", formally #41 was built in 1878 for NY Elevated and later served as Money Car G for the IRT. It is (was) in operating and did a special far trip at Shoreline/Branford before it's transfer (loan) to the TA Museum. I believe it's the oldest car in Branford's collection, which is interesting that a El car should be the oldest for a trolley museum
Mr t
Salaam,
Car G is displayed at the very end of the platform (at least it appears that way on the tape you made in November). You taped it from the outside as you walked down the platform. There is about a fifty foot space between it and the three gate cars, which were next in line. If you look carefully, you can even see the letter "G" on the side of the car. There was fencing in front of Car G, so you could not have walked into it if you wanted to. It is at about the 1 hour and 41 minute point in your tape of the Transit Museum.
Note: The "Preventative maintenence" that I mentioned is preformed on all museum cars on a regular basis.
Car "G" is not a member of the museum fleet. It is on loan to the TA by the Shoreline trolley museum. The deteriorated wiring took an extended period of time to get to the point that it is at now, During this "Period of time" the car was not on TA property. It was at it's home up in Branford. Just wanted to clear that up.
-Mark
Mark, considering you actually know almost nothing about how
the lights on money car "G" are wired, you perform a great
dis-service to both BERA and the Transit Museum with your
tabloid-like postings. Perhaps you should wait for an official
statement from one of those two organizations before you
regurgitate speculation as fact.
I believe in Mark W.
Since I was repeating what Mr. Hanna said, Everythng you said to me is also directed at him.
Let's wait for an official statement from one or both of those organizations as to what happened with Car G. I eagerly await to hear a response from them.
-Stef
Stef, I was in the TA Museum this afternoon.
Here's what I found out:
The fire at the Museum in Money Car 'G' was grossly exaggerated. The actual fire damage was localized to one area that DID NOT cause any damage to the roof, etc.
The TA Museum staff brought the fire under control quickly and effectively before it got out of control. NYFD later came on the scene as they are required whenever a fire is reported no matter the size or scope. However, the fire was already out when they arrived.
Also, the fire was NOT due to a 'lack of preventative maintenance' as was initially reported in this thread.
03/29/2000
Whether or not the accuracy of this report bothers me, it's concerns all the museum cars in the museum. Are all the lights burning 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. What would happen if a fire did break out when the museum wasn't staffed? Since I'm not an employee or volunteer of the museum, I always wondered if the car lights or third rails were turned off when the museum wasn't staffed just in case. There are some equally irreplacable cars down there just like "G". Anybody know anything on this?
Bill Newkirk
The power is turned off at the Museum when no one is around. At the beginning of each day, personnel are sent in to put the third rail power on, which in turns supplies the power to the cars. Nights, power is cut off unless there's something out of the ordinary going on down there.
-Stef
I see. It's good to hear that we at BERA didn't lose our pride and joy of the Rapid Transit Fleet. Thanks for the report. Someone got the facts straight. As an occasional volunteer down at Court Street, I'm glad to see that those kind folks got the situation under control before it could have gotten out of hand. Now I have an 1878 car to return to!
-Stef
But Mike did not issue an alarmist, exaggerated and inaccurate
statement in a public discussion forum. You did. Your all-caps
shouting headline belongs in the National Enquirer. You slander
the reputation of the Shore Line Trolley Museum, owner of car G,
by stating that the fire was caused by a lack of "Preventative maintenence" (sic)
on their part. You also caused
unnecessary panic by implying that the car was seriously damaged.
In fact, the damage has already been repaired. The area of the
canvas roof that was damaged was about the size of a quarter, and
there was some cosmetic damage to a ceiling panel that has been
corrected, and some dry chemical residue that was swept up.
The light socket which caught fire has been examined by representatives from the TA, NYTM and BERA/SLTM.
No one is claiming that decayed wiring had anything to do with it.
The bulb in question had just been replaced several hours
earlier and it appears to have been a defective bulb that did
not make proper contact with the socket and overheated it.
The same kind of failure could have just as easily occurred on
any other car in Court St (and in fact has several times in the
past few years, but that's another matter)
After the damage was repaired, the wiring was inspected and was
found to be satisfactory, and the lighting circuit is still
functional. However, as a precaution, car G will no longer be
illuminated from the 600V power except on special occasions.
Car G is not usually on power all the time. Normally, are the lights turned off when the museum is closed?
All the cars in the museum are on a live third rail. TO the best of my knowledge, it's never turned off.
-Hank
Not true. Third rail power to the Museum is turned off nightly.
Peace,
Andee
You mean on Tuesday night, right? Because you posted this message on Wednesday at 12:23 AM. If the incident happened Wednesday evening, then how could you have posted this message.
Monday eve, I was on an Uptown 2 which was
shifted over to the LOCAL track at 72nd St
and continued onto 96th St on the LOCAL
track (bypassing the 79th & 86th St's)
to find a stalled 3 sitting at 96th.
Now... WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME WE SAW A
REDBIRD ON THE LOCAL TRACKS ON THE IRT 1/9?
:)!!!!!!
that last time one was rerouted like yours was...
Every night when the 2 runs local from 96st to Chambers St.
-Hank
Is the station being renovated at this time?
It doesn't look like construction has started yet, (at least not below ground) but the platforms have been marked for what's going where.
-Hank
This past weekend. There was a GO in which the 2 and 3 were operating local between 42-72Sts in both directions...... Looks like track work at 42St Station.........
3TM
Not actually trackwork, more like work above the tracks and on the platforms. They're doing work on the platform and roof supports.
-Hank
I recently acquired a B division front route rollbox and was wondering, after I fix it, what is the best way to attach backlighting. Anyone have any ideas?
Are you referring to a bulkhead sign mechanism? I have one of each from a prewar IND car. For backlighting, I used a pair of clip-on desk lamps. Both are clamped to the destination sign's frame with a thin piece of wood to take up some slack. 25-watt light bulbs are about all you need.
BTW, which routes does your rollsign include? Mine has all of the original IND markings.
I'm worried about clip on desk lamps because of the heat. Those things really are hot. I don't want to accidently set fire to the rollsigns I put in if I keep them on at night, like a nightlight. The one I have, which I put into a handbuilt box, really looks nice on the wall at night.
I have a variety of old boxes I acquired from someone that I plan on restoring to working order and backlighting.
I have an IND Rollsign box complete with the crank. I designed a bracket to keep the crank in place, since usually the rollsign box in installed in a subway car, of course. I never thought about backlighting it, though. You guys,have fun!
Chuck Greene
The "real thing" has a perforated sheet metal screen between the
bulbs and the curtain to act as a heat shield
I am going to be in Boston for 1 day next week. Can anyone out there recommend the most scenic lines on the T to ride. I will devote maybe 4-6 hours. I will be starting at North Station coming in on the Lowell Train. Thanks
I don't know the lines well but I will say, DON'T TAKE PICTURES!
I know people who were harassed by employees and cops in Boston.
Be careful.
-Mark
I don't know the lines well but I will say, DON'T TAKE PICTURES!
For what its worth, I didn't run into any problems and I was right in plain sight of everybody.
--Mark
If you look at our Boston Transit section there is an address to get a photo permit from the MBTA.
-Dave
[For what its worth, I didn't run into any problems and I was right in plain sight of everybody.]
Me too. But had I known about the rule, I would have followed it. You can't be too careful.
I got some nice shots on the red line at the JFK Library stop. An MBTA commuter line shares the ROW there.
KP
Just to clarify:
The commuter trains and subway trains don't share tracks. The 2 lines run side-by-side.
KP
The Orange Line is not worth riding past Back Bay or North Station. I do suggest that you get a glimpse of New England Medical Center, though, and there is also the long corridor in State.
The Riverside ("D") branch of the Green Line runs on its own scenic former-railroad ROW and gets pretty far out into Newton. However, the return fare (which you'll have to pay) is a bit expensive ($2 for any stop in Newton).
The "E" line runs in the street with no reservation from Brigham Circle to Heath Street.
The Red Line has some nice features: the poetry in Davis Square (look closely at the platform tiles and you will see), the long escalators at Porter (showing trains going down, birds going up), the elevated station and track at Charles (try not to get off - it isn't a very pleasant station to wait in), the flyovers and yard leads near JFK/UMass, crossing the Neponset river and through a cemetery on the Mattapan trolley with old PCC vehicles, and crossing a wider point of the Neponset river on the Braintree line.
The Blue Line has two power sources: third rail and pantographs. The latter is used for the surface portion into Revere. Bowdoin is only open weekday daytime, and it is rumored that the MBTA wants to permanently close it.
Oh, and you should explore Park Street and Downtown Crossing. You can find, besides a large number of passageways, an underground grade crossing, a passage linking the two stations, and a combination island/side platform station.
where would the "underground grade crossing" be?; are you talking about the platform at Park Street?
On the northbound side of the Green Line portion of Park Street, there is an island platform and a side platform. One of the tracks only adjoins the island platform and is only used for short turns. The other track separates the two platforms, but can be crossed on foot without using an underpass. This is (I think) the only underground example now in the T.
I think you're right about Park Street being the only underground location where you can cross the tracks. Of course at most of the branch stations on the Green Line you can do this on the surface. The same is true at many Purple Line Commuter Rail stations.
And #73 Waverley -- I'm surprised that you didn't suggest that our visitor to Boston ride the trackless trolleys in Cambridge/Watertown! The underground busway at the Harvard Red Line station makes for a convenient, and interesting transfer between the two modes.
Bob, Surf this site for Todd's March 17th post as it has some additional detail on each line. Second you may not have time to order a day pass on-line, but I think they sell them for $5 at North Station. I like the trolleys up there so I would go for the Green Line, but it will eat up a lot of your time if you go all the way to Riverside.
Please give us a report as I'm organizing a "Field Trip" to Boston and Kennebunkport in July.
Mr t__:^)
Don't forget to ride the Red Line Mattapan-Ashmont Trolley. It is an extension of service from Ashmont, and is one of the few remaining PCC fleets.
Be sure to keep us posted on the field trip. Sounds like fun.
I bought a day-pass at the Blue Line Airport station when visiting Boston. I think it was $5.
I got the impression, though, that I could have used it the whole weekend. (Because I'm both law-abiding and in support of transit, I bought fare when needed!)
Fare control seems to be very close to the honor system in Boston. All I did was flash the day-pass and walk through the waist-level gate by the token booth, which did not appear to have any sort of locking mechanism. Nor are there many floor-to-ceiling bars and gates like we have in New York. Either they don't have the fare-evasion problems we have, or they have other effective surveillence techniques such as under-cover cops or cameras.
I'd also like to note (and heypaul would appreciate this) that the token booth clerks were extremely helpful to me and my wife 100% of the time!
KP
Thurston, thanks for the Info. I will try to get a day pass at North Statiojn, ride the Red to where Todd Told me to . Ride one of the Green Lines. I remember taking the old Orange line once when it was a el all the way back but I understood they rerouted it again. I figure getting in to Boston After Rush Hours, and leaving around 4 about 6 hours. I still hope to get to Seashore on Saturday.
You might want to check out one of the street-level branches of the Green Line (as opposed to the D to Riverside). It's slow going, but it's kind of fun to ride down the middle of a busy street. The E makes a short run down Huntington Ave. but I think the B down Commonwealth Ave. or the C down Beacon St. make a more interesting trip. check out http://www.nycsubway.org/us/boston/ for more info. Be sure to check out Park St. Station. It's worth it to just stand in there for a few minutes and watch the various green line trains come in on different tracks and leave with their bells ringing to clear the tracks.
I am used to seeing LRT run down the middle of the street since I lived in Calif for man years, seen them in San Diego, San Fran, Sacramento and San Jose, but I will ride one opr two if I can
Does the Greenline to Ardmore still conect to the Orange Line at Forest Park or Forest Hills ?
The Green Line E Branch was cut back to Heath St. a number of years ago. This was the last section of the Green Line where the trains actually ran in traffic (in revenue service). Traffic on Huntington Ave. was getting heavy (it's not a very wide street) and it was getting too dangerous to run the LRV's in traffic. The trains now run on the median to Heath St. where they turn around at the loop. The tracks are still in the street all the way to Arborway, and it is currently being debated whether or not to restore service on the line. The Arborway terminus was right next to the Forest Hills stop on the Orange Line, but the Huntington Ave. corridor is a very busy one with many businesses along it. One proposal is to run electric busses along the route and convert the Arborway car barn into a bus garage.
No, the Arborway service was "temporarily discontinued" in 1985, then reopened to Brigham Circle in 1986 (in the median), then to Heath Street in 1989, and the portion from Brigham Circle to Heath is not in a separated median. The "one proposal" you mention sounds like what the MBTA is proposing, and I don't really think that would work better - the #39 bus that replaced the E line is the most frequent bus in the MBTA system (shades of the M15, which is the only bus in Manhattan that runs 7-days-a-week limited stop service).
Please give us a report as I'm organizing a "Field Trip" to Boston and Kennebunkport in July.
My moving date to Boston looks like it will be pushed back to August 1st, but I still plan on being in town in early July to look for a place to live. I'd be interested in joining the field trip if it coincides with my visit.
Could it be....?
The BOSTON "T" PARTY!
BTW, I'll also be in Boston next weekend for a couple days, from Saturday the 8th through Monday the 10th. I'm looking forward to exploring more of the city.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'm also thinking of early July, before it gets too hot, but not the July 4th weekend. So that would be 8th/9th or 15/16th.
Anyone else interested please e-mail me NOW, because once I pick a date it'll be firm because of hotel reservations, etc. Others who want to join late, even showing up at Kennebunkport Sunday would be OK but you may miss some of the activities planned, e.g. the Boston T Party :-)---(BTW, a replica of that ship is tied up in Boston harbor ... I used to service the Tide Station across the street from it ... what's a Tide Station, it has nothing to do with transit, so e-mail me if you're curious)
Mr t__:^)
OK, that's worth a rim shot!
It made me smile too. We'll have to see if he still talks that way about the T when he lives their :-)
Mr t
Hello
We are doing a project on the #7 train (public space, usage study) and are looking for current plans and drawings of the train car for the #7 line. Does anyone know where we can find this information?
Thanks a lot
Max
(at above address or paumax@hotmail.com)
As I was coming home from work yesterday afternoon I got off, as usual, at the north end of the Bedford Park Blvd. station on the Concourse line. This is a part time entrance/exit. A lady, I do not know what she was thinking, tried to exit via the closed turnstiles and got trapped between the gate and the turnstile arm. I helped her get out by swiping my unlimited Metrocard. I am still laughing about it. It is interesting to note that all the turnstiles had their green exit lights on. Should they not be switched to red when they are closed. I wonder how often this happens to people not paying attention?
Peace,
Andee
A turnstile which is closed to exit (or closed to exit and entrance) will have a red light, however it can still be used to exit. perhaps this is a flaw in the system but it is there!
Yes, I know but these did not even have the red lights on!
Peace,
Andee
we never close (red light) turnstiles because we may not be able to restore them when the booth reopens. we just lock any gates that are present.
Why might you not be able to restore them? Is this a glitch in the system?
Peace,
Andee
Cubic Corp. is in the business of making money NOT making their equip. work perfectly ... every day I'm fustrated with their math, i.e. two different reports with a common field don't seem to have the same answer. Their typical reply is "isolated incident", i.e. we ain't going to do anythig about it. So, for our Station Agent friend someone has probally said "why did you turn it off if it was working" "leave it on if you want it to work"
BTW, I hope our friend was working far away from Kew Gardens this past week !
Mr t__:^)
I dont work at Kew Gardens.
Turnstiles= let me explain: On the computer there is a screen for " turnstile assignment" where we can make a wheel exit onluy, enter only, both, agent release(we buzz someone in for a senior citizen or disabled ticket.) Now the question- if a wheel is closed it shows up as "C" and the light turns red. If we close all then sometimes the cvomputer wont let us assign any turnstiles(meaning they all will stay closed.) Official policy calls for us **not** to close all turnstiles and to receive permission to close **any** turnstile without permissions ave for mechanical problems and then they prefer for us to simply tape the token slot and/or swipe area till maintainers arrive. Either way we have to call Jay Street to report turnstile problems. (If all are out of order we are to hit our alarm system immediately and immediate insturctions will be given along with a police presence for using the "black box" near the agent operated gate.
**disclaimer: no confidential info has been given. Info is based on directions given to Station Agents**
Obviously, there is either a design defect or a serious maintenance problem with this equipment. Why isn't the TA doing something about getting the mfr to make it work properly?
There is a fix! we are told never to close all turnstiles! tape if we must but do not close (red lights) all turnstiles!
This is also a fix?
At 63rd Drive station on the Manhattan Bound side, the 64th ave entrance has turnstiles that are open only during the morining rush hour. They always have the green exit lights on, even when the gate is locked. The TA must think we are smart enough to look beyond the turnstile while exiting.
Hey Andee,
Now that the new trunstiles are in, will we be gettin' full-time enter/exit privileges at the north end of B'ford Pk? I sure hope so.
Joe Caronetti
If you are referring to a HEET it may still be no. At some stations the TA still locks gates due to safety concerns. However, they may be open for a greater time span than just turnstiles.
I do not think it will be full time but, you will be able to enter for a longer period of time then you can now, as long as you have/buy a card . BTW they put up the new signs and it STILL says that the token booth is open from 6 am 'til 10PM not AM as it should. Can't they do ANYTHING right?
Peace,
Andee
Greetings all. The New York Times has a article about the opening and
a brief history on the line. Enjoy.
http://content.entrypoint.com/content.asp?cid=13502979&md5=b843a954f73db8c0898f1f851d95238c&bid=1
BTW - No password required.
Just to summarize the one point everyone wants to know, the Times reports opening day on April 15, 2000.
-Dave
there is also a map of the routes
This map used to be on the NJ transit website, but I looked and can't find it now. Anybody know what happened?
It's still there, see:
http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us/icons/hblrmap.jpg
-Dave
Thanks, Dave.
But I *know* I was in the NJ Transit website on their HBLR page a month ago, or so, when I printed out the exact same map that is in today's Times article. It was a PDF file. I didn't save it, 'cause I thought it would be there when I went back to the site. I know its only a PDF file, but I'm into maps, and I like to collect them when possible. Plus, it came out well on my color printer.
That'll teach me, I guess!
The PDF is still there, you just have to dig a little. From the front page, go into the "Main Virtual Terminal" then click on Light Rail, then click on Hudson-Bergen Light Rail, then click on "Vol 1 No 1" under Previous Issues near the top of the page, then scroll down a bit and click on "detailed map".
Or, grab it from here:
http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us/docs/Pdffiles/hblrmap.pdf
READ ALL ABOUT IT,
METROCARD SCANDAL
Peace,
Andee
We'll see what happens to this guy. There has been a lot of talk about being "tough on crime" in the last few years, but only on street crimes, which tend to be committed by the poor and minorities.
Street crimes are down, but white collar crime is soaring. I say 15 years in jail sounds about right.
[We'll see what happens to this guy. There has been a lot of talk about being "tough on crime" in the last few years, but only on
street crimes, which tend to be committed by the poor and minorities.
Street crimes are down, but white collar crime is soaring. I say 15 years in jail sounds about right.]
He'll say that he was "stressed out," and a victim of "childhood trauma," and will end up with probation and a suspended sentence.
In the article his lawyer said "He's innocent of course" ... his aunt said "He was always a good kid ..." and his mother said "I just love my new house" (she didn't realy say that).
Mr t__:^)
03/29/2000
Well, he's innocent until proven guilty. But if he's guilty, jail would be a shear waste of taxpayers money. How about:
1) Making him wear thermal underwear and a fur coat and be chained around a column at Grand Central on the (4)(5) &(6) in the summer.
2) Making him a Men's room attendant for 6 months at the Men's room at Stillwell Ave-Coney Island (the Men's Room from hell).
3) Make him do any kind of TA paperwork 24 hours straight for a month.
4) Imprision him in the abandoned Polo Grounds Shuttle tunnel and make him scrap the rust off the remaining signal heads and cases.
5) NUMBER 5 IS YOUR SUGGESTION
Bill Newkirk
#5 He has to scan A-L-L discarded MetroCards for residual value until he repays the entire amount that he stole.
Mr t__:^)
Read all about it,
METROCARD SCANDAL
Peace,
Andee
Well, at least they waited for him to finish his shift before nabbing him!
Joe Caronetti
What a dick!!!
I have been in SubTalk for nearly a year. Since I grew up in the Bronx, I think I am much more interested in IRT than BMT and IND.
I observed that most of the SubTalkers like BMT more than either IRT or IND. It seems to me that BMT were more colorful than either IRT or IND.
I am interested in why more people are nostalgic for BMT. I have three suggestions:
1. They grew up in Brooklyn.
2. BMT has rich history.
3. BMT has different types of cars.
Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.
Chaohwa
I grew up in The Bronx also. I have learned over time that the BMT was much more innovative than the other two.
Peace,
Andee
My grandfather took me to Coney Island offen when I was growing up on the Lower East Side in the 50's and 60's. Of course Canal Street to Coney Island is served by that division called the BMT.
As you can probably tell if you're a steady reader of the various and sundry pieces that appear on Subtalk, there are a lot of us nostalgic BMT buffs. As I remember as a kid, the BMT was king in Brooklyn and Queens, the two boroughs where I lived. The IRT was small potatoes.
I, too, grew up in the Bronx. Still there! The IRT was always where my
interest lay. When I started in the ERA, many folks were from Bklyn and had an interest in the BMT. Almost no one had an interest in the IND, unless they were strictly into speed and a "cleaner" design, such as the stations and track bed. (although the R-1-9's and R10's did have the respect of just about everyone.)
As I started riding on my own, I found the BMT to be both perplexing, annoying and interesting. I was dumbfounded by the methods of construction. What the hell were they thinking? Where do these platforms go? Why does that tunnel go there when it looked like it was to go somewhere else. It always seemed to have more of an "old world" feel to it, even today. Back then, Brooklyn itself seemed to have more of an "old world" feel to it. I guess the whole city did.
There was just something special in riding an open cut line, an el that was inches from an old tenement or highballing (rare) in a tunnel.
Joe Caronetti
It might have something to do with the age of the folks that post here, i.e. in the 50 & 60 & 70 the IRT had Red Birds while the BMT & IND had Standards, Triplexs, R-s & Red Bird look-a-likes, e.g. R-16.
Older folks would rember the El cars, Lo-V, and Hi-Vs on the IRT.
As an example I had no idea what a Hi-V or Lo-V was before I came to this board ... and trolleys all looked the same except for the PCC, now as a (hopfully) new guy at the handle going ding ding I'm learning the difference between trolleys and pineing that I never rode a Triplex from Astoria when I had the chance back in the 60s.
Mr t__:^)
1. They grew up in Brooklyn.
Could be. As you stated, you have a fondness for the IRT because you live(d) in the Bronx and it was nearest to you, so it was likely the division you rode most often. Growing up along the Brighton Line, I guess the BMT would be my "favourite", too.
2. BMT has rich history.
So does the IRT, in my opinion. If you lumped together the BMT's history along with the Brooklyn Rapid Transit's history, both the BMT and IRT lineage can be traced back to the 1890s. However, the IND's history is the most mysterious because, compared to the other two divisions, there is less documented on it, and there are all of these anticipated routes partially built for the IND Second System that never materialized. The BMT may have had routes planned and not built, but more often than not, no construction was started, whereas the IND did start some construction (S 4th St, Roosevelt Ave, etc).
3. BMT has different types of cars.
The BMT was known to be the most innovative regarding car designs, and certainly had the most of them in a relatively short period (1924 - 1940). The IRT used basically the same car design since Day One, with the only "minor" exception being the World's Fair cars of 1938. The IND, as an indepedent entity only 10 years, used exactly the same car design.
--Mark
However, the IND's history is the most mysterious because, compared to the other two divisions, there is less documented on it, and there are all of these anticipated routes partially built for the IND Second System that never materialized. The BMT may have had routes planned and not built, but more often than not, no construction was started, whereas the IND did start some construction (S 4th St, Roosevelt Ave, etc).
I don't feel the IND's history is especially mysterious. Once Hylan and his political think-alikes began to solidify the idea of a City-owned subway, the idea progressed more or less steadily.
The BMT did have routes planned and never built (by the BMT), prominently the Staten Island Line, the Brooklyn-Queens Line and the 8th Avenue Line, as well as some significant connectors. But after the Dual Contracts, the BMT wasn't in a position to do construction without City acquiescence. The City didn't even want to keep its end of the Dual Contracts by completing the Nassau Street and 14th Street subways for BMT use.
As to the "IND Second System," with hindsight it is understandable that we "seek for it in the dust," but realistically speaking it was pie-in-the-sky, despite the physical accommodations made for it. IF the Depression had never happened, and IF Unification had never happened, and IF WWII had never happened, and IF the City hadn't committed itself to extensive social spending and IF the GI bill, and Robert Moses, and the rise of the automobile, and the public desire to live in less dense surroundings hadn't made far suburban life more feasible, I'm still not convinced much of the Second System would've seen the light of the day. The IND "First" System balooned the City's rapid transit debt so enormously, I'm not sure there would have been financial or political support for the Second System, many of whose lines were marginal.
Since I grew up in the Bronx, I think I am much more interested in IRT than BMT and IND
Apparently there is some truth to the theory that railfans tend to like the line they grew up with. In the case of the BMT it is true that I grew up riding Triplexes and Standards, but the more I found out about the company the more it reinforced my appreciation of it.
2. BMT has rich history
The BMT is the result of the merger of many predecessors, each with its own colorful corporate history. In addition the BMT itself has a very interesting operational and financial history. To me the IND was just a government operation -- nothing especially interesting in that.
3. BMT has different types of cars
Not only different but technologically advanced for their time!
www.bmt-lines.com
I guess for me it was the time I was born and growing up. I was born in '53 and did most of my solo railfanning as a teen in the late 60's. I've always loved the pre-war trains and considered any post war train boring & utilitarian. When I was growing up there were still Standards on the Canarsie Line, "Q" types on the Myrtle, and loads of pre war R types on the IND (R-1 to R-9's). The only pre-war cars on the IRT were the World's Fair Low V's on Third Av in the Bronx. The IRT as a whole was boring. (sorry redbird lovers) However now, since there are no pre-war cars left I like all 3 divisions the same.
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I prefer BMT because I spent 15 years of my youth living within 80 feet of the BMT Jamaica Line. I was close enough to read the car numbers of the BU's and the Standards that went by my bedroom window, except when it was dark.
I survived a serious childhood illness partially because of my dedication to trying to keep track and record the numbers of the BU's that the BMT had repainted green, which was on ongoing project during the 1940's.
I figured out on my own the BMT's number method of permanently coupling trailers between two powered Standards, i.e. 2414-4007-2415.
I left New York 43 years ago this summer but I still think of New York's Transit System, especially the BMT.
I grew up riding the Brighton which had Triplex on the Express and Standards on the Local. On a Sunday, if you took the Brighton Local from Coney Island to Astoria, you had such a variety of Rightways, First a El for about 1 mile running within 2 blocks of the Ocean, turning inland the el continued, then into a enbankment, then thru a cut with 2 set of different tunnels. Then speed on the tunnel to 7th aAve, remaining in the tunnel, over the Manny B, running express in Manhatten, then over to Queens once again on the El. Also the variety of cars during Rush Hours in the early 50s.at Coney Island. Standards on the Brighton, Triplex on the Sea Beach, Mixed Qs, Standard As and a Triplex on a West End Shuttle to Bay Pkwy. On the Culver Qs on the Shuttle to Kings Highway. There was such a variety
And that is why the IRT was such a second rate system as far as excitement was concerned. Once a train entered a tunnel it stayed there forthe duration, and vice versa. There was no traversing over a bridge, no cuts and el variations whatsoever. Sorry Redbird, but this is an unreconstructed Sea Beach BMT nut speaking. Hear me well.
What about the Dyre Av line?
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What about the 225st B'way bridge on #1/9 lines?
JRC
One bridge? Wooly bully. The rest of those lines are dull and repetitious. By the way, why do you go by the flx870 handle? And Caronetti? That's a hell of a name piasan.
One breathtaking IRT view (from the front window) is coming out of the tunnel with Yankee Stadium appearing on the Jerome Av line, even though it was a better view before the stadium was rebuilt.
Hey Sarge: Even a pig has to find an acorn once in a while, but you are right. The Dyre Ave line is an exception to the rule. I have only ridden it once, though, so hopefully I will be forgiven for my lapse of memory. But the rest of the IRT? I stand my my previous statement.
I don't eat acorns.
Fred, I like the Flushing Line, and that is IRT
Hey Sarge,
Don't forget, the Dyre Avenue Line was not built by the IRT, it was inherited by them. It was originally part of the great but forgotten railroad, the New York Westchester & Boston.
Chao:At the risk of starting a sub-atomic turf war here I'm going to respond to your posting. The BMT to be sure was a very intersting and innovative transit system with many different types of construction and a fascinating car fleet. It was always nice to take a ride on the Brighton Line through the bucolic reaches of Brooklyn with the anticipated destination of Coney Island. However the BMT could never make up its mind weither or not it wanted to be an elevated or a subway system and so it had a chronic shortage of equiptment. The wide variety of rolling stock must have created a spare parts nightmare for the car department and while the experimentals like the Green Hornet,Zephyr and Bluebird were indeed marvelous to see and ride they actually saw very little service.
The IRT dominated Manhattan with no less then six mainlines. There was elevated express service running the length of Manhattan on three lines;2nd,3rd and 9th while the 6th used the 9th Avenue's tracks above 53rd Street as well as express service in the Bronx on the Suburban Railway. There were of course the magnificent four track mainlines on the east and west side as well as the a four track main into the heart of Brookyln.(Did someone say this was BMT territory?)
The IRT to this day maintains elevated express service on no less then three- three track lines;West Farms,Pelham and Flushing and a short run on the Jerome which is in subway.
The IRT served all four borough whereas the BMT did not venture north of 60 Street in Manhattan and made it to Astoria and Flushing only through trackage rights on the IRT.
The IRT built basically one standard car design for the els and one for the subway and stuck with it. This allowed for a much better utilization of equiptment.
The BMT unfortunately,like the Brooklyn Dodgers is no longer with us. It has been gobbled up by that rank newcomer the IND. The IRT contines to maintain a separate identity and still provide dependable rapid transit
Larry,RedbirdR33.
Larry,
Don't you think that the NYCTS was formed to merge the IRT, BMT and IND together as a city owned subway system? The day will come when people will no longer remember those three sets of initials anymore than they could remember or believe that trains did not always have headlights or air conditioning.
Because of the car width differences, the IRT will always stand apart from the BMT and IND.
The BMT was the best for innovation while it was a private company, but after the city took over, I think you could only count the R-11 as an `innovative' train that spent most of its life on the BMT tracks.
The IRT has never been known for innovation -- at least, not until the R-142s are formally introduced -- but that has also meant their cars have been the more reliable, especially in the years since unification.
Because of the car width differences, the IRT will always stand apart from the BMT and IND.
The BMT used 9 foot wide cars from 1885 to 1969. They started using 10 foot wide cars in 1883. They had everything. :-)
[ 10 foot cars in 1883 ] ?
I assume you are refering to one of the excursion roads. Which?
Brooklyn Bridge Railroad
I think the original BBridge units, the widest, were too wide for the el, but that was way before the BMT existed.
The 10' wide BB cars of 1883, the 9' wide cars of 1885, Sands St (lower level) and Park Row were all way before the BMT (1924). However, both wide and narrow cars on the same train used the BB. The wide cars were coupled and uncoupled at Sands St. Shouldn't that qualify for a BMT pedigree?
Karl: This is so true.We always refered to the subway as the IRT,BMT or IND. These designations more or less ended in 1967 for the public anyway. That was 33 years ago. A whole new generation has been born and had children of their own in that time. They think of the subway only as the "A" train or the "2" train.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It is still aamazing to hear the three divisions referred to by "new" New Yorkers, folks that migrated here from other countries. And we still hear/ see the press still using those designations. We were all to be brain washed years ago into forgetting IRT,BMT and IND. They still exist, in the vernacular, at least.
Joe acaronetti
Yes, it's comforting to know that alot of folks, young and old alittle still refer to the old divisions when talking about the subway system.
Doug aka BMTman
I think that NYC will alway have IRT, IND, BMT just like we will always have Sixth Avenue in Manhattan. Only tourists call it Avenue of the Americas. Likewise, in the 1960s, there was an attempt to rname Eighth Avenue as Avenue of the Flags and that was defeated--easily.
IRT not innovative- not hardly-- the Lo-V, my all-time favorite car was innovative in the use of low voltage for the operating controls. Until this car it was possible to fry the train operator.
Incidentally- today **all* subway cars, even BMT and IND(, B1 and B2 Division respectively) to those who insist, are all low voltage.
The IRT also developed the vestibuble at car ends, an extra safety feature, plus the anti-climber on the cars ends, also for safety.
Anti-climbers are standard on all rapid transit cars to this day.
JRC
Ok Joe flx and Mr. SubBuff, you guys are aficiandos of the IRT. But whether you like it or not, the BMT had better looking cars, more exciting routes and a hell of a lot more variety. Take the Brighton Beach, for example. (Boy will Brighton Beach Bob love Sea Beach Fred talking about his train). That train crossed the Manny B, was both a cut and an elevated in both Brooklyn and Queens, and its final destination was the then wonderland of Coney Island. Much of the IRT must traverse the South Bronx. That's real scenic or is it sick?
The BMT also has it good parts, and the IRT the bad.Yes!
My favorite is still the iRT and BMT gets second and IND third.
Larry, Nostalgia mean "a bittersweet longing for things, persons, or situations of the past" and its root is a sort of homesickness.
Both the BMT and IRT are rich in nostalgia. In terms of variety of elevated lines, the IRT more or less blows the BMT away. Even though I missed the Manhattan el system, I'd love to return to those thrilling days of yesteryear to ride the Polo Grounds shuttle again or a Low-V on the White Plains Road express tracks.
We have something else going on with the BMT besides nostalgia which Chao may or may not have been referring to. The IRT was a fairly utilitarian system. Please don't take that as a criticism. It was concerned with moving large numbers of people efficiently. It had interesting and complex operations. Though it didn't have a conventional railroad past like parts of the BMT, it had a distinct railroad flavor. I still recall semaphore signals in the Bronx.
But if Unification hadn't occurred, I don't know that today's IRT would look a whole lot different than it does under City ownership.
The BMT, on the other hand, would probably look a lot different and it is possible much of the U.S. transit industry would, too. The BMT was aggressively pro-rail and pro-innovation. The City's forcing the BMT to cancel its order for 500 PCC trolleys and the City's own cancellation of 45 of the 50 already ordered Bluebirds gives a hint of what "might have been."
I enjoy my BMT (and IRT) nostalgia. The "cover" of the upcoming Spring "Third Rail" certainly hints at that. (For a "sneak peek", click here.) But other BMT writing deals with what else was lost besides a pleasant memory. I think this is an important part of why many people view the BMT as special.
Unfortunately, under unification the former BMT lines combine the worst of the IND and IRT. Like the IRT, BMT local stations are too close together, slowing local service. Like the IRT, curves are sharp, slowing trains to a crawl. Like the IND, express rides are short and rare, slowing express service, and trains merge and diverge frequently, slowing all service.
I was at Atlantic Avenue the other day, and was amazed at how many people were exiting the BMT to pack onto the IRT.
"Like the IND, express rides are short and rare,..."
IND expresses are short and rare? When was the last time you rode the IND? Look at Queens Blvd, CPW, Concourse, Brooklyn. Rare & short hardly. I agree about those converging lines, like the "A" and "C" at Canal; always hated that operation. Awkward. The original IND put the other two divisions to shame. Speed, many exits, uncluttered stations, fly overs. Even the locals were built with a minimum of stations. Not at all like what they are doing to the system today. It always seemed like the BMT had a thing against expresses. Or, perhaps, against speed. Face it. The standards were not speed demons. The experimental cars hardly ran decent lines, so who can say how fast they were. The R11 hit speed when it ran the IND. And of course, it was not ordered by the BMT.
Joe Caronetti
Don't forget about the multisectionals. With a balancing speed of 58 mph, they were just about the fastest speed demons in the history of the NYC subway system. I can only imagine how they would have fared on the CPW express run, had they ever run there. Even the R-10s couldn't have kept up. Those multis must have really been something in the 14th St. tunnel.
I've heard the Triplexes didn't accelerate all that rapidly, but once they got up to speed, they moved.
[I was at Atlantic Avenue the other day, and was amazed at how many people were exiting the BMT to pack onto the IRT.]
Doesn't surprise me. I've found that the N or R from Pacific to 14th Street takes almost twice the amount of time as the 4 or 5 from Atlantic to 14th - even if you discount the longer BMT headways.
Right you are about that. My question is: doesn't the T.A. see this?
Why are only the #4 trains running thru to and from Bklyn and Manhattan. They are stuck in the 1970's time warp, having the #5's
terminate at Bowling Green. The #2/#3 make the full run.
I ride the "BMT" often between Manhattan & MetroTech during the mid- day. The N/R's appear to give more service and they are not nearly as crowded as the #4 from Boro Hall.
Joe Caronetti
(I've found that the N or R from Pacific to 14th Street takes almost
twice the amount of time as the 4 or 5 from Atlantic to 14th - even if you discount the longer BMT headways).
It's amazing how slow that route is, esepcially since the 4/5 cover almost the same distance. The four extra stops don't help, but don't explain it all. And to think DeKalb Avenue was rebuilt in the 1950s to speed things up.
some reasons its slow
1 - Slow/sharp curve north of DeKalb
2 - Slow/sharp curves between Lawrence to Court
3 - Slow/sharp curves Courtland to City Hall
4 - Slow northbound leaving City Hall toward Canal St
It was always so annoying on the BMT. That slowness!! Curves are only part of the issue. The BMT always seemed to have the slowest-changing signals.
JRC
Remember, right now you're comparing apples to oranges -- or in this case, the IRT express track to the BMT local track. If and when the N finally, finally, get back to running across the Manhattan Bridge, then the difference in time will disappear.
The IRT will still have the faster runs thanks to the tunnels (even when the Manny B reopens, I expect the speed restrictions to be something awful) and the fact that they're not running anything resembling the R-68, but if they go back to rush hour skip at DeKalb, there will be only one stop, Canal St., between 14th and Atlantic Ave., compared with six on the 4/5 line.
The view from the southside of the Manny B is worth the little extra time---if it is indeed longer after the bridge opens. It is across the bridge that the "N" becomes known as the Sea Beach, and if the truth be told, to see my favorite train head for Rector Street and some of the other stations in the bowels of Manhattan is still very hard to take. When the "N" finally goes back across the Manny B, then a lot of nostalgia will become reality. That's a nice thought. I also plead guilty-as-charged. My last post saw me lament allthe talk of the Manhattan Bridge reopening on the south side and here I sam fulminating about it. Well, that's show biz.
Give it up Teach
Remember, the IRT as originally built, was for much shorter trains.
Larry: Its interesting that you should mention the close spacing between stations. It seems that the early IRT and BMT had stations spaced roughly about five blocks apart. This was at a time when surface transportation was still to a grat extent horse-drawn. IRT Dual Contract stations seem to be about 7-8 blocks apart and the IND runs about 10 blocks between stations. Of course there are exceptions.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>>the IND runs about 10 blocks between stations<<<
Only in Manhattan.
Paul: So you remember the semaphores on the IRT? I seem to recall that the last ones were in use on the Jerome Avenue Line. I do like the BMT and have always credited them with innovative design but having grown up in The Bronx I felt I had to put in a few good words for the IRT. Do you recall some of the ERA meetings back in the early 60's when there were many youthful members? We basically split into two groups;the IRT loyalists and the BMT loyalists. I believe that there were even one or two IND fans then. I really don't know if the BMT ever could have fully meshed their subway and el systems. The varying car widths must have been a bedevilment to operational planning. The IRT on the other hand basically ket the two systems separate although of course there were exceptions.
The story of the BMT is very much like that of the Brooklyn Dodgers. They didn't win many games and if they did manage to make it pass the Giants they still had to face the Yankees. I have a great respect for that Brooklyn team but an even greater respect for the loyalty of their fans. Alas the Dodgers and the BMT are gone,whereas we still have the Yankees and the IRT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I recall the IRT and BMT loyalists at those meetings. There weren't many IND fans, as you said. One thing I recall--almost noone would admit to being a bus fan, though some would admit there were favorite buses. My personal favorite bus was the 6000 series Macks, and I also liked the Twin Coaches they replaced. I was also fond of the 2000 series GMC's that operated out of West Farms Square in the Bronx (i'm talking all late '50s--early '60s here).
Paul, as someone who grew up using the Hempstead Bus Company I grew to love the Macks too. Until the fishbowls they only had Macks and kept them right up till the time MSBA took 'em over. Those buses had as many different sounds as the R1-9's!!! As a teen to get to the city from East Meadow when I didn't have the LIRR fare I would ride:A Mack to Hempstead An old style GMC on the Bee Line from Hempstead to JamaicaAn R1-9 on the "E" or "F"
By the way, did you know there are pictures of Macks on this site (from the Av B & E Bway Bus Comp)? Go to Bus Talk and there is a link to pictures of buses then click on the Av B & E Bway pictures.
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Never forget meeting you in the early 1960's, Paul. At an ERA meeting, I mentioned I liked the IND. You words to me in reply: "You stand alone".
JRC
I mentioned I liked the IND. You words to me in reply: "You stand alone".
Nice to know I was once a man (or boy) of few words. ;-)
Paul:One thing I recall--almost noone would admit to being a bus fan.
Paul: That is so true. Bus was a four letter word in those days.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Just got the AT&T Spanish card. Are there two sets like the English card? I only was able to track down one, the street signs.
Also, has it been determined that there are two or more versions of Kenneth Cole cards? Again, I've only come up with one, the Afican American guy.
Joe Caronetti
No habla Espanol here in Queens :-( and haven't seen any K. Cole cards yet either, so it looks like you have someting to TRADE with at least one collector.
Mr t__:^)
03/30/2000
Also, has it been determined that there are two or more versions of Kenneth Cole cards? Again, I've only come up with one, the Afican American guy.
There is another Kenneth Cole card with a couple embracing against a wall of peeling paint. I bought mine,for $3, at a booth at 42nd and 8th Ave. Whether they have any left is anybody's guess.
Bill Newkirk
I heard that the K. Cole cards are on the E. side. Can anyone confirm this??????
3TM
I suppose it's good news. LIRR President Thomas Pendergast is leaving his post in the next few week to take a job with a British company.* We've all heard the old expression, when you've hit bottom there's no place to go but up. That certainly applies here - no matter who the LIRR ends up hiring as a replacement, he or she *has* to be a huge improvement over that idiot Pendergast!
* = I simply can't believe that the British, being in a country with excellent public transit, couldn't find someone closer to home.
[I suppose it's good news. LIRR President Thomas Pendergast is leaving his post in the next few week to take a job with a British company.* We've all heard the old expression, when you've hit bottom there's no place to go but up. That certainly applies here - no matter who the LIRR ends up hiring as a replacement, he or she *has* to be a huge improvement over that idiot Pendergast!
* = I simply can't believe that the British, being in a country with excellent public transit, couldn't find someone closer to home.]
LOL. Did you read what that company is doing, BTW? It seems that this new company is going to privatize the London Underground! What a laboratory for the many of us here (namely me) who favor privatization of the NYC subway.
Not sure I'm impressed with their personnel choices, though. Hey, chaps, that's not what we meant when we said he would drive it into the ground!
The privatisation may not happen now, things are very interesting in London at the moment. The Labour Party tried to fix the candidate for the new NYC style mayor of London, the person who was stiched up has quit the party and is running as an independent. He may even win, and is completely against privatisation. So, you may get this LIRR guy back...
[The privatisation may not happen now, things are very interesting in London at the moment. The Labour Party tried to fix the candidate for the new NYC style mayor of London, the person who was stiched up has quit the party and is running as an independent. He may even win, and is completely against privatisation. So, you may get this LIRR guy back...]
Please, anything but! Actually, he's ideally suited for London, since you guys have no need for working air conditioners . . .
Why is it that Europeans are such R-33S admirers (avoiding pun)? If you know what I mean.
That's the title of a article in one of the trades I get, it's a bus/rail monthly. (Metro article written by Lenny Levine)
Quess what was #1 ..... the opening of the IRT in 1904 !
Also amoung the 15 were: last horsedrawn railcar 1917; opening of the San Diego LRV system in 1981, the 1st new system since WW II; Rudolf Diesel's new fangled invention; Greyhound starts life as Motor Transit Corp. in 1926.
Some others I didn't agree with, e.g. #2 UMTA, Urban Mass Transit Admin. created in 1968.
Mr t__:^)
I would think that Frank Sprague's multiple unit control would be in the top 15.
I would agree with that, as I said I didn't think too much of the 15 topics they picked, but some were OK, like Mr. Rudolf Diesel's invention.
BTW, amoung the group was Arab Oil Embargo and Mr. Fageol who delevoped the 1st intercity bus (safety coach), but then it's a bus/rail TRADE so they need to be loyal to their advertizers :-(
P.S. I don't want to list all 15 for fear of a copywright problem, i.e. I'm encouraging folks to read to publication.
Mr t__:^)
On that grounds, does anyone remember the name of the person who invented the automatic coupler?
Eli Hamilton Janney.
Thurston ... would you mind posting the top 15 for those of us who don't get your trade publication? I'm interested .... I'll bet others are, too.
--Mark
IRT number one? In NYC maybe.
I would be more inclined to say London's first underground line or Frank Sprague's successful trolley installation in Richmond.
I won't try to bring down to a single #1, but I'm afraid the real most significant event in Public Transportation might be something more like the passage of the act creating the Interstate Highway System.
[ ... the act creating the Interstate Highway System ...]
That would have been another good one, but it didn't make their list.
Author Lenny Levine asks for comments: metromag@bobit.com
Let me list them all since there seems to be quite a bit of interest:
1. IRT subway in NYC 1904
2. UMTA, Urban Mass Transit Admin. 1968
3. ISTEA, Intermodal Surface Transportation Effciency Act, 1991, and TEA 21, Transportation Efficiency Act for 21st Century
4. Fageol Safety Coach (intercity bus), 1922
5. Resurgance of street cars, no specific date, but recent events
(seems to be the same as #14 to me ?)
6. Motor Transit Corp., i.e. Greyhound, 1929
7. Cummins Engine Co. & Rudolf Diesel's invention in 1932
8. Clean Air Act 1971
9. Private development of mass transit (20s & 30s and more recently)
10. Back from the brink, street cars and steam engines durring WW II
11. Semiconductors
12. Arab Oil Embargo 1973
13. ADA, Americans with Disabilities Act 1990
14. 1st new LRV system at San Diego since WW II in 1981
15. Last horsedrawn railcar 1917
Copyright disclaimer: This list appeared in the Jan issue of Metro Magazine, the author and his e-mail address is listed above. Less then 400 words have been quoted from the article.
Mr t__:^)
On the negative but massively important scale GI home financing leading to major shift from apartment to SFD for upper blue/lower white collar workers.
<>
Huh? BART and the Washington Metro both opened in the seventies and were built completely from scratch
They're not Light Rail systems.
UMTA is the Urban Mass Transit Administration (1968) that made funding avaiable for systems such as the Bay Area (1972) and Washington (1976).
I would think that the creation of UMTA was indeed an important milestone in public transit history.
Without UMTA, many systems would probably not even exist any more; Federal funding allowed many systems to continue to exist, expand, or simply start up.
Well it was actually the Urban Mass Transportation Act of 1964 as ammended that was significant. The advent for federal intervention was important to preserve trasnit systems across the country.
The act did a lot to insure that not all transit in the country outside of NYC and Chicago would not dissapear.
At first UMTA was in HUD and was later moved to DOT. UMTA has now evolved into FTA, or devolved depending on your point of view.
Here is Newsdays take on the departure of LIRR President,
LIRR President leaving for London
Peace,
Andee
I'll be happy to take that job on for $170,000 !
Interesting that when he 1st took the job he lived on LI and sometimes to HIS train to work, then moved to SI and Limoed :-(
Mr t__:^)
03/30/2000
I'll be happy to take that job on for $170,000 !
I don't think so Thurston, that's probably the most thankless job anywhere. You can't satisfy anybody, the employees, the riders and the politicians!
Bill Newkirk
The Newsday artical inspires my scavenger mentality.
I'd like to hear your responses to aquireing some retired M-1,
cutting out a 15 ft. segment, the center five windows as viewed from the side 00000||00000||00000 and creating a new improved car , capible of traversing the "B" division and giving access to key area of the city.
Try to consider where they could possible go to and from. For obvious reasons it might be limlted stops.
dream along.
Chambers ST? WTC? 42nd St lower level? 63rd St tunnel- BWAY- Lower level Chambers st? Atlantic ave-Dekalb - Rutgers- somewhere ?
avid
(I'd like to hear your responses to aquireing some retired M-1,
cutting out a 15 ft. segment, the center five windows as viewed from the side 00000||00000||00000 and creating a new improved car , capible of traversing the "B" division)
I'm interest in this concept. If you were to put two B division trucks on an M1, where in the subway could it run? Not on the eastern division. Not on the BMT line near City Hall. How about the F line, or the D?
You have to change the electronics. The LIRR as you know runs on 750 volts DC. But I like to see them go 80 on the D line between 125st and 59st. :)
YES, BUT HOW LONG TILL THE SEATS ARE SLICED OPEN .....
Cover with soft Kelvar imbedded with fine emory below surface.dulles knife blade as it tries to cut.
Running 750 volts units at 600 should not be a great problem.
I know a museum that runs 1200 volt south shore cars on 600 v. A little slow on the hills though.
How wide are they though. The station platforms can be unforgiving at times.
I know a transit agency that bought some PCC cars for use as historica cars on their system. Too bad the PCC cars are 9' wide and the platforms were built for 8'6" cars.
[How wide are they though. The station platforms can be unforgiving at times.]
Same width. But what about the height? AFAIK they're too tall for the tunnels.
M1s could go in the tunnels and platforms
About 5 seconds.
Consider this :
00000( )00000 00000 00000 ( )00000 current car veiw
00000( )00000 00000( )00000 after cut and paste
now with all those left over couplers from married sets of R/68 and R/68a replace the current M-1 couplers.
A few new lines to replace some old.
Chambers St Lower level ,up BWAY , 61st Tunnel, cross over to Main St Flushing , Express service in Manhattan and Queens depending on am or pm. Number 7 will go from Times Sq to Astoria. Some iron work needed."E" express from
Laurelton Queens to WTC Via 6th ave , reroute "F" to local 8th Ave and resume southbound routes below W4th.
I think i need help finding more routes. Ideas are welcome.
avid
My recollection is that M-1/3s have different loading platform heights
than NYC subway trains, though I don't recall if it's higher or
lower. (Andy S. are you out there???) Oops, there goes ADA
compliance!
Given the condition of the M-1's, I suggest an alternative use: drop them into the ocean to create fish reefs.
On the other hand, that might be cruel to the fish.
I'd suppose no museums out would want them.
It'd be ashame to see the whole fleet scrapped without any preserved, as nearly happened to the '54s.
Third rail commuter equipment is pretty unique in the US....
Anyway, I never understood why the LIRR didn't de-motor them and use them as push pulls, like they did with the '72s and '75s....
Hey - hopefully Prendergast's replacement won't be such a doof....
But then again, if everything was running well and things were great, would it REALLY be the LIRR? :)
03/29/2000
Anyway, I never understood why the LIRR didn't de-motor them and use them as push pulls, like they did with the '72s and '75s....
The LIRR was toying with that idea years ago.
Bill Newkirk
Platform heights can be done with shims springs and truck boslter modifications. How wide are they??
I think the cars are too wide to fit !!!!
Plus use 30+ year old cars !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
G O H , I think the M-1 's could be rebuilt with all the bells and whistles here in the US and recycle the dollars needed here in the US
and at a lower cost per car .
I was mistaken in an earlier post , the center section that is needed to be removed shpuld be 10ft not the 15ft I stated . That would bring the length down to the same 75 ft of the R-44-46-68-68a's.
Does anyone have the M-1's width , height and floor height?
avid
The dimensions for the BUDD M-1's are as follows:
Height rail-to-rooftop- 13'0"
Height rail-to-floor- 4'2"
Width (outside)- 10'6"
Length (over coupler)- 85'0"
Length center-to-center of trucks 59'0"
Coupler Height- above rail- 2'10.5"
This information can from the operators manual for the Budd M-1's. I hope you found this helpful.
Greg
Gonna need a bigger hammer to make it fit, or let a little air out of the tires.
avid
suggestions anyone ? be polite.
[Gonna need a bigger hammer to make it fit, or let a little air out of the tires.
avid
suggestions anyone ? be polite.]
Well, if you removed that 10' center section, a quick trip through the tunnels would probably do the trick!
Similar to eighteen whellers on the Belt Parkway until the first overpass?
avid
[Similar to eighteen whellers on the Belt Parkway until the first overpass?
avid]
I actually saw a trailer stuck under one of the traffic bridges at GCT once. The guy was wedged in so tightly he couldn't back out.
Good locations are the Belt coming offthe Verezzano, off the Cross Island Southbound on to the Southern State east bound. I Can't think of other chop spots , but I'm sure they abound out there . Wait a minute, along the belt near JFK , east or west .
avid
Others:LIE onto Northern State just after Roslyn Rd. Good for at least 1 per week even with the many warning signs.Jackie Robinson off of the Van Wyck
I've been following this thread from the beginning and I still don't understand the reasoning behind the idea. First of all the removal of the center section to shorten the cars and all other work to fit it on the subway would make the costs prohibitive. Then the M-1's aren't set up for rapid transit. Ever stand on a crowded M-1 during rush hour? Nothing to hold on to. Would you keep the same seat setup? It would be hard to get up and make it to the doors (and only 2 of them) The few subways that have forward facing seats don't have them one after the other where you have to squeeze through and the aisle person has to get up to let you in or out. The last NYCT car to have forward facing seats next to each other were the "Q" types. Also what would you do with the lavoratories? The NYCTA has no facilities to empty and clean them. (not that the LIRR cleans em!!!)
Remember- Even when there was joint LIRR/BRT operation (the connection from the Jamaica El to the Atlantic Av LIRR branch) they used a special LIRR car made specifically for rapid transit, the MP-41.
I think its much easier to buy new cars.
the SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff page
my MEMORIAL to ROOSEVELT RACEWAY
1) Modify the seating, Perhaps two X two .Maybe combinations 2x2, 2x3
2) Over head hangon bar to be installed.
3) Limited number of stops, and using dual sided platforms where possible.
4)scrape the craper.re-use for advertising equipment. CD drive to multiple flat screen displays to sell BMW's , Vacations in Caan or Tiahiti, Rollx watches or 5 Star restaurants be for or after the Bway show.
All this for a buck n a half, or reduced rate after rush hours!
(sic) avid
[re reasons why the M-1's are unsuitable for rapid-transit use]
And let's not forget the fact that the M-1's are close to 30 years old and have have mediocre-to-poor maintenance for much of the time. Even with substantial renovations (which won't be cheap), their useful lives can't be that long.
the m-1's can't be used for rapid transit. i agree with u. only 4 doors per car, nothing to hold on to, all the seats face forward however there is one majore thing about the m-1 that it can't be used in rapid transit. the fact that it is wider than a subway car which means it can't run down the track without scuffing walls and platforms and they are poorly maintained.
The M1 and an IND/BMT subway car are both the standard width for a US passenger rail car: 10 feet.
Thank you
avid
It is NOT wider than nycsubway cars
thank you
avid
I don't think two sets of doors on each side would be sufficient. The loading/unloading times at each station would be too long.
Plus, although the M-1's have a higher top speed, their acceleration is much less than regular subway cars.
I agree the number of door sets is deficient for fast loading,so routes with factors like distance, number of stops and both side loading should be factored in . Lets not give up yet on this asset.
#7 flushing line EXPRESS to QueensBoro PLZ. thence to BWAY as an express and Terminating at City Hall lower lever. Use of both sides wher platforms allow. Capture LIRR Atlantic and Far ROCKAWY braches and Dekalb connection to Rutgers and connect to Nassau to Chambers or Canal. Or maybe connecting the south end of the lower level City Hall to the south end of the Chambers dead ends in a kind of loop?
The IRT cars are too norrow there willbe a LARGE gap
Also the trippers on the IRT are on the wrong side
Replace the IRT cars with R/40M's.
Now picture in your minds eye the Queens Blvd Viaduct and an express of M-1M's and a local of R/40M's humming their way to METROPLAS!
avid
[Replace the IRT cars with R/40M's.
Now picture in your minds eye the Queens Blvd Viaduct and an express of M-1M's and a local of R/40M's humming their way to METROPLAS!
avid]
The #7 el is B division width, but what would feed the narrow Steinway tunnels?
Switch to Broadway line at QBP.
[Switch to Broadway line at QBP.]
I think that would leave you short of capacity--the whole idea of that new tunnel is to bring a new line in (they plan to run the N to Forest Hills in place of the G).
Reroute the redbirds to Astoria.
A little iron work and fatten the platforms.
avid
[Reroute the redbirds to Astoria.
A little iron work and fatten the platforms.
avid]
That's an interesting idea, but it would still leave the tunnel way underutilized. Why cut back some platforms and extend others to end up with lower utilization?
03/29/2000
(I'd like to hear your responses to aquireing some retired M-1,
cutting out a 15 ft. segment, the center five windows as viewed from the side 00000||00000||00000 and creating a new improved car , capible of traversing the "B" division)
I like your sense of humor. The only parties that would be acquiring any retired M-1's would be the scrappers. The LIRR has policy of running equipment into the ground, perfrom no preventative maintenance and repair when necessary. Face it, those M-1's make look nice and shiny, but underneath, they're beat to hell.
Bill Newkirk
[The Newsday artical inspires my scavenger mentality.
I'd like to hear your responses to aquireing some retired M-1,
cutting out a 15 ft. segment, the center five windows as viewed from the side 00000||00000||00000 and creating a new improved car , capible of traversing the "B" division and giving access to key area of the city.
Try to consider where they could possible go to and from. For obvious reasons it might be limlted stops.
dream along.
Chambers ST? WTC? 42nd St lower level? 63rd St tunnel- BWAY- Lower level Chambers st? Atlantic ave-Dekalb - Rutgers- somewhere ?
avid]
Pretty much has to be the other way around, I'm afraid, with new multimode high speed 67' or 75'cars on the RR tracks, which could be equipped for full commuter travel (bathrooms, cushy seats, narrow aisles), short hop commuter travel (cushy seats, wide aisles), or subway service. But, since you mention :
Metro North, Bronx, and Upper Manhattan:
Co-op city superexpress to GCT via Amtrak, Park Avenue; to lower Manhattan via Amtrak, Park Avenue, 63rd St tunnel and BMT express
Direct Metro North service as above, same routes
Subway service from Woodlawn, same routes, using existing stations
#6 superexpress service, same routes
Direct Metro North service downtown using West Side Line, A, World Trade Center
Subway service from Riverdale, same routes, using existing stations with superexpress stops at 168 and 116 and local service from 116 along Riverside Drive
#7 continuation to Penn and then Javits via lower level IND track and Track 21 (would require A division vehicle), or just a track 21 shuttle
Alternative plan for service to downtown business district: replace shuttle with moving walkways and enlarge the two remaining tracks to B division width by replacing the supporting beams. Then connect to Metro North at GCT end BMT express at Times Square end, for thru service. (Less cool but much cheaper version leaves track at current width & uses A division cars.)
Brooklyn/Lower Manhattan:
Direct LIRR service to lower Manhattan via Atlantic Avenue Branch then BMT or high amenity superexpress from Laurelton to Jamaica to Atlantic via Atlantic branch, then lower Manhattan via BMT
Direct superexpress service from Broadway junction via conrail to main or Montauk lines then to Midtown via tunnel
L express service via Conrail/LIRR track
Local feeder service on other conrail tracks
Queens/Midtown:
Queens express/superexpress from Jamaica along main line, coming in via 63rd Street; LIRR traffic (or reverse traffic) would use Montauk line
Local feeder/superexpress service along other Queens LIRR lines
The overall idea would be to give the four boros (sorry, SI) and commuters complete subway or subway equivalent coverage except where it wasn't wanted (e.g., some parts of Queens) without laying new rail. That would mean that most everyone in the four boros would be able to walk to a local subway stop or, in neighborhoods that don't have much traffic, a shuttle bus with subway style loading, & take it to a station where they could transfer to a high speed superexpress heading directly to the midtown or downtown business districts, while at the same time making enough capacity available so that with good operating practices most rush hour commuters get a seat. The amazing thing is that while I haven't yet figure out how to fit in everything, I'm coming to believe that it's doable, except in a few parts of Manhattan like the East Side.
Now, on to my plan to rebuild Penn Station--
You are truly a visionary,but you must speak up more.
avid
All kidding aside , thanks for the info.
[You are truly a visionary,but you must speak up more.
avid]
:-)
Retireing the M1 fleet ? Are they out of their minds? Those cars are in much better condition then the R68. if anything the lirr should get M7 cars as aditional cars
Is there an M5?
I think the M5s are Metro-North trains.
The M1s are LIRR
Not sure about 2, 3 and 4, though I THINK they are Metro-North.
Are any of these classes split between the two railroads? They are all almost identical in appearance and probably very mechanically similar.
M-1: LIRR/ MN - 750 V DC third rail units
M-2 MN - 13kv / 750V DC units (New Haven Line)
M-3 LIRR / MN - Like the M-1 only bnoxiously overweight and slow
M-4 3 car New haven line sets - worst riding of the NH line stuff
M-6 3 car NH line sets - Newest of the NH line stuff - made by MK in '96
so what is the M5 (train dude would know)
There was one desturbing line in the Newsday article, that caught my eye. It said that Prenderghast was possibly making a move to London (which sounds suspiciously like he's already got the job) fo work for a private London company. This company is bidding to take over maintenance for NYCT. Considering the job Tommy P did at the LIRR with 1,000 cars, what could possibly be in the future for NY Straphangers if he becomes responsible for 6,000 NYCT subway cars.
Sounds as fishy as when Peret Stangl took a job with Bombardier.
Are the MNRR M1s in better condition than the LIRR M1s.
Could the Lirr M1s be turned into push-pulls
What is the future of the mnrr M1s
Which type of new haven car has a barcar in the consist
are they bar cars
Will all of the lirr M3s be renovated
What is the difference between mnrr and the lirr M1s
What is the difference between mnrr and the lirr M3s
What are the M5s
Where do they run
When will the M 7s start running
will they run on the mnrr
Why is the center windows blocked out on the nh cars
What is the difference between the M4 and the M6
Will the mnrr M3s be renovated
Will the lirr save any M1s or unrenovated m3s
Will any m1s be renovated
What will the m7s look like.
also when were these cars made/rebuilt
I found out recently that the lirr m1s were made in 1972 and the lirr m3s were made in 1976
That would be 1986.
86??????
I've heard 76, 82, 84, 87, and now 86?
Please answer these questions
04/12/2000
Are the MNRR M1s in better condition than the LIRR M1s.
Yes they are.
Could the Lirr M1s be turned into push-pulls
Possibly, the LIRR toyed with that idea years ago but canned the idea.
What is the future of the mnrr M1s
Not sure
Which type of new haven car has a barcar in the consist
M-4's
are they bar cars
Yes,there is an actual bar in the center of the car (against the wall)
Will all of the lirr M3s be renovated
Possibly, after the M-7's arrive. Possible conversion to AC propolsion?
What is the difference between mnrr and the lirr M1s
Automatic speed control,upper headlight (LI 2 lights-MN 1 lights),MN has opening vent windows,LI doesn't. Other differences, no space here.
What is the difference between mnrr and the lirr M3s
Somewhat same as the M-1's, MN still uses their front destination signs, LI removed theirs.
What are the M5s
Never built, possible MN replacement.
Where do they run
When will the M 7s start running
Maybe 2 years from after the first ones arrive and after testing is done.
will they run on the mnrr
Yes, planned replacements for NYC/PC/CR/MN 1100 MU's.
Why is the center windows blocked out on the nh cars
Those are the "bar cars" as discussed before.
What is the difference between the M4 and the M6
Both are 3 car units. M-6's have AC propulsion
Will the mnrr M3s be renovated
Not sure.
Will the lirr save any M1s or unrenovated m3s
Supposedly the best M-1's will be saved and rebuilt, not sure how many,all M-3's will probably be rebuilt.
Will any m1s be renovated
See above.
What will the m7s look like.
Artist conception shows pantograph gates on front (first time) single side door leafs as compared to double ones used now.
That's the best I know as per your questions.
Bill Newkirk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks
Last night, around 9:45, the northbound A train I was on stalled between 168 and 175st. Listening to the motorman in the cab, he was telling control he had indication, but the train wouldn't take power. At this point, I took out my scanner, and set it to the IND pair.
Train was the 2013 Far Rockaway; lead motor R44 5408. Anyway, several attempts to get the train moving resulted in us only rolling slowly backwards. On instruction from command center, the motorman tried the reverser, the bypass, reset all LV circuit breakers, cycled the controller (?) all to no avail. The conductor made a few announcements similar to 'Ladies and gentlemen, we apologize for the delay, we're having a serious mechanical problem with the train.' and overall did an admirable job keeping us informed.
After several announcements from command asking for a 'TSS in the area of 168 and St. Nicholas for 2013 Apple Far Rock with Master Motor Failure', they told the operator to go to the center of the train, and see if it would take power from there. All the while, they're also talking to the trains stuck behind us. They started turning all trains at 168st, as it was determined that we were not fouling the interlocking at 168st.
No go on the first couple of tries to run from the 5th car. Try the bypass, says command. That worked. After informing command of the situation, he was instructed to send the conductor up to the first car, and operate the train from the center. I mentioned to the guy sitting across from me (and my fiance next to me) of the Roosevelt Ave accident in 1974. (Jodi later told me I was scaring people)
The conductor came up to the front of the train, and they used the radio to relay information on the signals, including a red signal just before 175 with the stop arm down (we were cleared). We stopped at every signal before passing it. As we rolled into 175st, I could tell that the motors on the first car, at least, were not operating (no whine).
The final outcome was the train was operated this way to 175, where all passengers were discharged. After checking the train, they were cleared to continue operating in this manner on A4 track, cross to A6 track at 200st, and wait for a TSS to bring the train into the yard. Service was restored immediately, and the problem train was still sitting on A6 track when we got to 200st. Total delay time (from stall to 207st) for me was about 30 minutes.
-Hank
would a TSS be a "car knocker"?
Train Service Superintendant - sort of like the Road Foreman of Engines on a RR.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh, you got the R44 with the actual Railfan Window! #5408 (ex.#164)
has a front window with no black over it, and if the operator so chooses, he can leave it uncovered, allowing quite a view.
Sorry to hear it wasn't feeling well last night. BTW - the Roosevelt Avenue accident in which the R40M was being operated from the third car occurred on May 20, 1970. I wouldn't have worried in a situation like you had - it's two-track operation there.
It sounds like your crew handled the difficulty in a thoroughly professional manner. There is a tight curve coming into 175th Street, and I bet they negotiated that stretch at a crawl.
Wayne
what line does this train run on ?
That would be my favorite route, the A, even without the R-10s.
If there's a definition for slower than a crawl, that's how they did it. And sorry to dissappoint you, Wayne, but the window was painted black from the inside of the car (not the cab) with what looked like spray-paint.
I actually got the same train last night (2013 A Far Rock, not 5408) and gave the motorman a 'well done' for his efforts the night before.
-Hank
"No go on the first couple of tries to run from the 5th car. Try the bypass, says command. That worked."
Understandable since in the middle of the train, you wouldn't get Train Operator's Indication and would have to use the bypass to take power. Incidently, as of right now, that failure is still under investigation and no determination as to cause has been made.
If you ever find out what it was, lemme know! I just discovered that a co-worker was on the same train!
-Hank
Is Queensboro Plaza on the destination signs for the cars on the lines that stop there (R33-36WF, R32, 40, 68)? If it is, why don't they ever use it for when 7 or N trains have to terminate at Queensboro Plaza?
As you all may be aware, the Cubs and the Mets played their opening game in Tokyo early this morning. The Cubbies won, BTW. :^)
There was a long segment on one of the local 10PM news shows where the Cubs players (and several reporters and cameramen) rode the Tokyo subway system. Apparently, the Cubs had gone to play an exhibition game against a Japanese team somewhere out in the suburbs. It took them three hours to get there by chartered bus! So they took the subway back, and though they had to change trains at least twice, they got back to their hotel in about an hour. (Crikey! Traffic in Tokyo must be horrendous if it takes three hours by road to get somewhere that's one hour away by subway.)
They stood most of the way, since they rode at the height of evening rush. It seemed that most of the official signs on the subway were in English as well as Japanese, so they had no trouble navigating. At least one of the players or coaches who were interviewed said that they were used to taking the subway to the ballpark, when in New York if not here in Chicago, but that the Tokyo subway system's size and crowding dwarfed even New York's. The inevitable mention of "pushers" was made, as was the inevitable (richly deserved) John Rocker joke.
there were pictures of the mets doing the same in yesterdays NY times...
And the Mets won the second game in 11 innings.
Now I hear the Braves want to trade (off his) Rocker to Montreal. Wonder what he'd say about French Canadians, eh?
The Cubs should have no problem on the Tokyo subway - half of them take the El to Wrigley Field anyway. I remember, when I was younger (I am still only 16 now) I lived in Chicago and my father's company had season tickets that were right behind the bench - so you could hear all the players talking. And I remember though I was only 8 or 9 hearing one of them talking about how he had just one some kind of award, and how although it was cool he was disapointed because he couldn't ride the El anymore - everyone would bug him for his autograph. Most of the other Cubbies either take the CTA's El, or lament that they can't because of the crowds - so it makes total sense that they would be at home on the Tokyo subway. Also, anyone who has EVER ridden the Red Line up to Belmont at rush hour knows it can't really get worse!
---Abe
While on vacation here in Europe, I've had an opportunity to take a good look at the subway system in the city of Rome. Many of you should be happy to know that the Rome subway system truly makes New York's system look good.
Conmsidering all the jabber I've listened to over the years about how wonderful European trains and subway systems are, please consider the following:
- Rome has only two lines compared to New York's 27 or so.
- Every single subway car that I've seen in the system is totally covered with graffitti - as bad as it was in New York in the 1980's.
- Stations are uniformly boring - downright sterile - no tile mosaics as we have in New York and very little advertising with no news stands at all.
- Trains seem to travel at about 30 to 40 or so just like New York.
- No express service exists on this meager two line system.
- I experienced two trains taken out of service in a row (door problems) and was just like in New York - - crammed into a car like sardines when a working train finally arrived.
- My train got backed up coming into it's terminal station and creeped and crawled to finally reach the terminal.
I certainly realize that Rome by no means characterizes all European subway systems. But it is an international city - a city of the world - and one that merits far better transit than this.
As for Italian trains - I've been back and forth over the last two days between Naples and Rome. I was on a Eurostar service train which I suppose the Italians would want to compare to Metroliner service. Here is what I found:
- Eurostar service is handled by trains that hit about 100MPH sometimes - - not as fast as a Metroliner.
- Eurostar service provides fixed seating - no reclining seats as you would have on any Amtrak train and many US commuter trains as well.
- The lack of leg room (I'm only 5'10") mde the ride very uncomfortable.
- My trains left and arrived late here in Italy - certainly no better than anything I've seen in the US.
- Food on these trains was limited to the worst kind of junk.
- Smokers flagrantly violated the no smoking rules in the no smoking cars and the conductor or train personnel did absolutely nothing about it.
- Approaching the terminal stations, we creeped and crawled just like trains backed up in morning rush inbound to Grand Central Station.
Luckilly - Italian trains and the subways of Rome are NO reflection of the people I've met on this trip. Although the Italian people seem to know less English than other European cultures, they are warm, friendly and most helpful to Americans and find whatever means are necesary to communicate with others.
More than once, I was careless with my belongings and at one point nearly left my wallet in a Eurostar office. The clerk in the office realized my mistake and trotted out to return the lost wallet to me - simply because he was a good honest man.
So - I would come here again in a second and with a smile.
As for the trains and subways here - New Yorkers should take heart. Things could be a whole lot worse.
Wow!!
I didn't think it could be that bad. Not even cab signals?
What type of safety system do they use?
"Wow!!
I didn't think it could be that bad. Not even cab signals?
What type of safety system do they use?"
It's hard to say what the design of the safety system is. But it's clear that the trains can't move with open doors. That must have led to the two trains going out of service ahead of one of my trains.
Signals are plainly visible in the tunnels. Standard red, gree, yellow signals were easy to see. As for cab signals - I have no idea.
In my opinion, the condition of the cars is also questionable. The cars appear to be about 1970's vintage. But the massive graffitti leaves teh outside condition of the cars hard to judge. Who knows what condition the metal is under that graffitti??
When graffitti was at it's worst in New York, the condition of the cars themselves was also poor. It could be the same in Rome.
While in Italy (1987-1990);
I found Milano more interesting than Roma.
I never ridden the subway in Roma, but with all the old ruins buried in Roma, the city don't really want to dig another line.
The Roma trams was fun to ride in, but Milano had the Witts and newer equipment.
Orange seems to be the primary color of all transit vehicles.
Germany was better.
The old ruins buried in Rome are apparently part of the reason that the C line has yet to be built.
[The old ruins buried in Rome are apparently part of the reason that the C line has yet to be built.]
As I recall, the lower level of the train station has a fenced off area with some ancient ruins. Kind of cool, actually.
That's what I heard as well. Everytine they'd start digging a tunnel section, they'd uncover some ancient artifact. I wonder if they hired a full-time archaeologist or two.
I was in Rome in 1977, at which time only a very short section of subway was open. While I didn't ride on it, I did ride on a streetcar for the first time in my life. I came away with the impression that autos weren't the only fast vehicles there. Those streetcars were doing R-10 impressions of their own!
I know I'd love to go there now with my camera gear. I could shoot a couple of rolls of film at the Colosseum alone.
[I know I'd love to go there now with my camera gear. I could shoot a couple of rolls of film at the Colosseum alone.]
Reminds me of the spectacular, stormy day when I approached the Roman forum for the first time, and saw the best photo opportunity of my life. Naturally I didn't have my camera with me, it being wet and all . . .
I rode on Rome's subway during the summer of 1978. At the time, there was only one line, the one which ran from the Coliseum area (IIRC) to the main railroad station. I can't remember much if anything about the equipment - that was long before I became interested in subways and transit - but I don't recall any graffiti (and surely would have, if there'd been a major problem). One thing I clearly do recall is the mild electric shocks you'd get from the turnstiles!
Sounds like you were on what is now called the A line Peter. And it may have been extended a bit since then based on what you've said here.
The B line (I rode this two days ago) runs from the EUR (Mussolini's attempt at a model town filled with facsist architecture) to Rome Termini (Main station and main railroad station as well) and beyond to a place called Rebibbia.
As for turnstiles, they have pretty much been done away with here. What they've gone to in it's place is a paper ticket system. The tickets are mainly available in tobacco shops. Even at Roma Termini (main station) the way to buy your ticket is in the tobacco shop.
Once you have a ticket, you stamp it in a time clock punch and must have it available in quick time if the police ask you to present it.
IIRC, you also buy postage stamps at tobacco shops as well. I went into one when I was there, and the lady at the counter kept talking to herself the whole time. To top it off, she didn't speak a whole lot of English. I managed to throw a sentence together in Italian which made sense, and got what I needed. I'll vouch for the earlier post on the general friendliness and kindheartedness of Italians. They will do everything they can to help you even if there is a language barrier.
Hi,
Does anyone know where I could find plans or drawings for the nyc subway trains? Specifically for the #7 line. It is for a school project where we are studying public space. Thanks
Max
Hey, guys can anyone e-mail a diagram of a R-33 or R36. You know that 51 foot long, 9 foot wide car with seating for 44 average bodies, three 50" doors on each side, made of Low Alloy High Tensile steel by St Louis Car in 1962-63 that needs to be painted, etc....
Yesterday a spent a few hours wandering the future route of the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail. I took a bunch of pictures which I hope to have developed by the end of this week. Then I will try to get them scanned by my friend as well as finally scan pictures from the Polo Grounds Shuttle Tour.
If you have the chance go to the Exchance Place stop and look at the floor of the platform. There is a huge map of the area in brass (or similar metal) as well as small sections of otherplaces in NJ mixed among the floor tiles.
They were running cars as far north as right before the Harborside Station and the operators were more than friendly to myself and others looking around.
BTW - I looked at the waiting room at Hoboken Terminal for the first time in years, and I must say it does look wonderful.
-- David
03/30/2000
I was there at Exchange Place today and I saw a couple trains being operated by trainees. They clang the traditional trolley bell as well as sound a loud horn that puts diesels to shame.
It's was gratifying seeing trolley..er catenary wire strung over streets in use for the first time in many years. It's also ironic that New Jersey planned, built and is now on the precipice of full operation of a light rail line. Something that New York talks about.
Bill Newkirk
Does anyone know if the route from Port Morris(Netcong)to the Delaware Water Gap area is being revived?....I heard said it might go all the way to Scranton, but I am not sure it would be feasible as a commuter route.
In the next few years the route from Netcong to Slateford will make an excelent connuter rail route. With the relentless march of Sprall across the hills and valleys of Northern Jersey a faster way into NYC will soon be demanded. The Slateford Cutt-off is relivitly flat, has existing station buildings spaced widly appart and is grade crossing free. It it the perfect line for hi-speed rail and possibly even electrifacation. I can see it opening with station in Slateford/Portland, Columbia, Blairstown, Johnsonburg, Greendell, Andover/Rt. 209 and Roseville. In the Winter you might see ski trains operating into Stroudsburg and Mt. Pocono. There might be service to Scranton as part of a larger "Southern Tier" route that continues up the LV main to Sayre, Binghampton, etc. Because there is already service to Port Jervis, the best route for a new, possibly Amtrak, Tier service is through Scranton.
Today, on my way to doing a video on the R142s, I took the #2 Train from Times Square.
When I stepped on this train much to my surprise, THERE WAS NO SCRATHITTI ANYWHERE!
I walked throught all 10 cars and none of the cars had scratchitti on them. Also to my surprise they had the same plastic window protectors that the Buses have now been sporting for the past year or so.
The Scratchitti battle plan is in! This was great because I was able to do railfan window video shooting with no dirt or scratchitti anywhere.
If anyone is lucky enough to catch this train, the Northbound motor is #9100. RELISH IT WHILE YOU CAN! I DID!
Trevor
Does anybody know who invented the Metrocard or anybody that knows exactly how it works? If you do, please tell me how I can contact him/her?
On a differnet note...How do I get to the Transit Museum from the 4th Ave. line?
Take the N or R to Court Street ( Borough Hall) and follow the signs in the mezzanine. Use the exit towards the IRT
Magnetic tape was invented in the 1930s, I believe by 3M. Eventually, it found it's way in as an effective data medium, added to almost all credit cards and various pass cards and other similar devices. Mag tape is inside your audio and videocassettes, and a similar system (not a tape, a disk) is the technology behing your hard and floppy drives, not to mention super floppies (iomega Zip, LS-120, etc.).
A magnetic tape is coated with an ferric (iron) oxide based compound which is capable of being induced to a permanent magnetic state. Unlike a solid magnet, it can be changed, and unlike an electromagnet and induced magnetic iron products, is permanent. When you scan your card, an electromagnet is passed through it (in the case of the subway it's the card that's moving) and the electrical current passing through the gap at the end of the head changes the magnetism, similarly, a head can "read" the car by causing the current to be changed based on a pre-existing charge on the tape. The tape is recorded with either a "high" charge or "low" charge. Low represents a zero and high represents a one, everything is done with this binary numbering system with it's two digits.
0=0
1=1
2=10
3=11
4=100
and so on
The last three numbers on the right column are not ten, eleven and one hundred, they are two, three and four, they just appear like different decimal numbers.
there are two strips on the Metrocard, one is fixed and contains irrevocable (although it can be changed, it just isn't after initial encoding) data such as the serial number and expiration date. The second one is the variable data. As for what it does, the following is the proper order in which a scan is applied (we'll assume a few things as I don't want to branch out into EVERY possibility):
Read card type, it's a regular
Read expiration date, not expired
Read serial number, leave for later checking
Read last time of use, less than two hours and eighteen minutes ago, so:
Read location, transfer from that location is OK
Read whether transfer is acceptable, one is
Read unlimited timer, none is available, move on
Read value, no deductions need to be made (transferring), move on
Rewrite last date/time of use to current, rewrite location to current location and write that another transfer will not be allowed.
Check serial number with negative list, does not match, move on
Log transaction data
Prompt displays, activate beep, unlock turnstile.
Data stored in the log is sent via fiber optic connection to the TA HQ, bus data is connected to the network at the depot. TA stores data as long as necessary (one year after card expiration) for customer service purposes, and to counter fraud. Updated negative lists are also sent to the turnstiles and fareboxes.
Oh and:
The Metrocard system was designed and installed by the Cubic Corporation.
For more information about dip/swipe/smart cards of all types:
- Credit Card Management magizine: www.cardforum.com
- Card Technology magazine: http://cardtech.faulknergray.com
Mr t__:^)
I remember the Church Avenue Trolley in Brooklyn going through a tunnel when it crossed under Ocean Parkway. What year was that tunnel taken away ? Were there any other trolley lines that had a similar setup and if so at which intersections ?
?
!
¿
The tunnel's use ended with service in the early a.m. of November 1, 1956. IIRC, the tunnel remained unused until 1960, when it was filled with rubble and sealed.
03/30/2000
The tunnel's use ended with service in the early a.m. of November 1, 1956. IIRC, the tunnel remained unused until 1960, when it was filled with rubble and sealed.
I was told years ago by the late Al Hirsch that some of those rails from the underpass were removed and sent up to Branford. Are they still in use today?
Bill Newkirk
There were several locations on the Grand Concourse in the Bronx, as well as the former NY & Harlem RR tunnel on Park Ave in Manhattan that had a station in it. And the underground terminals an the Manhattan ends of the Queensborough and Williamsburg Bridges.
But the Church Ave underpass may have been semi-unique in New York City.
are there any BMT "B" cars around today still opertional how many ?? and where are they stored ??
when did they last run on museum runs ?? will there be any museum runs of any museum cars
this year anywhere ( philadelphia included ) not just in new york city ..etc are there any museum trains
runs etc........ planned this year in new york city ......??????
There are five BMT Standards left, none operational.
#2390-2391-2392 is currently undergoing overhaul at CI Shoppe.
#2202 (number correct?) is at the NYCT Museum - not operational but does have interior lights.
There's one of the #2700 series up at one of the New England museums.
Check out the Museum Car page to find out where all of these stand.
Wayne
ok when will the next museum train run if any ?
Wayne: 2204 is at the Transit Museum. 2775 is at Branford.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Mike Hannah's group at Coney Island has one of the standards
operational. It is either 2390 or 2392 (whichever is not the
one that is up in the air without its trucks).
Forgive me for being a Brookyln-BMT dummy.
B = West End line
D, Q = Brighton Beach Line
F = Culver Line (which is what I normally take to Coney Island)
N = Sea Beach Line
R = 4th Ave Line
If I'm wrong about any of those, correct me.
You're batting 1.000.
03/29/2000
I was checking out things today and found out that they reopened the closed Canal St.station (Uptown side via bridge). The new tile and mosaic work looks very nice and is identical to the (N)(R) side except the lower tiles are dark green instead of dark red. There is still some more tile work left to do. The Manhattan Bridge bound side that was used as a link between the two Canal St. stations is now closed and the retiling is about to commence. I hope they solved the eternal problem of water leaks in this station. It looks like they're getting ready for the reopening of the Manny B's south side tracks. I can hardly wait!
Bill Newkirk
(Looks like they are getting ready to reopen the south side)
I rode over the bridge today (massive IRT delays, but that is another story). They seem to have the painting down pat, and it is moving along. It is conceivable that the southside will be open by the fall. In that case, the walkway will be open as well, and we'll have to have a railfan walkover. Aside from standing on a platform, that's probably as close as you can get to an active subway line in NYC.
The pedestrian walkway on the Willie B is nice, too. Great views of the river, the trains, the cars, the bldgs, tec.
They may be working on that problem from above. The intersection of Canal and Broadway has been torn up completely, and there are T&S workers and a private contractor working there each night.
-Hank
03/29/2000
My apologies to SubwayBuff@Mindspring, don't mean to steal your thunder!
I was at the Transit Museum Gift shop today and was told that an "Earth Day" Funpass should debut next month. So keep your eyes open all you collectors out there !!
Bill Newkirk
no need to say you are sorry! I value your input. In your e-mail you mentioned the Spanish A T & T. I posted the station list.
03/30/2000
SubwayBuff,
Your posts announcing new Metrocards is likened to you being a modern day Paul Revere. The new Metrocards are coming!! The new Metrocards are coming!!
Bill Newkirk
Does anyone know how much it costs to get a banner type advertisment setup in the new york subway system?? I specifically need to know
who i should contact and how long it takes to have the advertisment posted. I appreciate any information.
Thank You,
All the relevant info is on Outdoor Systems' website.
--Mike
I was in Jersey City yesterday, and I walked down Washington Boulevard, I got to where it turns west to avoid the Hoboken Terminal and meets Marin Boulevard at about Seventeenth Street, here I noticed a few concrete viaducts from the west, dead ending at Marin Boulevard. I would have followed them, but I had no idea how far away they ended or even if that area would be passable, let alone safe. So, I bring up the question here, are these viaducts part of a once larger Hoboken complex or something completely different?
pigs--- if you were near a WIZ on marin blvd, i ran into those viaducts myself about 6 months ago--- they extend several blocks back---- they are very impressive massive remnants---- it is very strange how they are cut off at the streets---i've been there on my bike several times, and it seems a quiet mixed area---- as far as trotting about, i think that there are pork eaters there, otherwise i think it is safe for humans--- i think....
yea heypaul pork eaters !! i will take a pass on that !!....
Where were you in relation to the Holland tunnel? I believe the Erie had a terminal at what is now the Newport Center Mall, and pieces of the ROW are still there.
-Hank
hank--- i'm not sure of direction--- but i went from hoboken terminal over toward the holland tunnel approaches--- crossed over the approach---and then several blocks further down--- i think pigs cross streets were about right--- there's a wiz and bj's down the block...
The Erie ROW is now the approach road from Jersey St./ US 1 & 9 and the NJ Turnpike which leads to Newport Center and Washington Boulevard. This is on the south side of the Holland Tunnel approach. The Erie terminal was at the location of the Pavonia/Newport PATH station. The "E" can still be found on the concrete posts in the PATH station. I always assumed that the ROW on the north side of the Holland Tunnel approach was part of the DL&W, but I never did find out for sure.
The Erie route goes from Croatan yards, under the Bergan hill in a tunnel at a diagonal, crosses under I-78 right after it makes its curve south. That part is still used by the Natnl. Docks Sec. From there it traveled via a viaduct to the terminal and I think that is what Pigs saw. There are also a few other viaducts around for various freight yards etc. I'll have to check the jersey City USGA map again.
We are not confusing the HBLR bridge at Newport or the viaduct that starts just north and continues to Washington Ave.??
I think we're talking about a viaduct that is parallel to and north of the Holland Tunnel approach.
I think some people are thinking of one thing while others are thinking of another...
There are stone viaducts along the block btwn 5th and 6th streets from around Newark Ave in the west running east to Marin Blvd near Newport Mall. The viaducts there carried tracks to a rail yard that once existed where the Wiz/BJs/Pep Boys shopping center is now (next to the mall). I'm not sure who the yard belonged to.
There are concrete viaducts running N-S along 16th Street from Jersey Ave to Marin Blvd. by the Newport A&P. These run along old industrial buildings in this area. Some places the space under the viaduct is walled and divided into what looks like storage type areas.
-- David, Jersey City Resident
Correction - The concrete viaducts also run east-west. Sorry for any confusion.
-- David
That is the viaduct in question--the one that ends before Newport Plaza. What RR is it?
What I want to know is where all of the RR terminals on the waterfront were in days gone bye and what existing or defunct lines they connected to. I know of:
PRR: Exchange Place
JCRR: Liberty State Park
Erie: Newport
DL&W: Hoboken
What else?
Those are the only passenger terminals I can remember. The B & O and the Reading, of course, used the CNJ terminal for NYC access.
The B&O went to Staten Island, but I guess that doesn't really count as part of NY City.
The other major RR terminal in the area was the NY Central West Shore Line terminal in Weehauken.
Now, what happened to all these RRs?
First Penn Central, then Conrail, now CSX and Norfolk Southern.
-Hank
Which was also used by the old New York Ontario & Western (O&W), which held trackage rights north to around Cornwall or so....
The Lehigh Valley down where Greenville yard is. I know that in recent times the LV ran its trains into Penn Station changing with the PRR at NK tower, but I would assume that at some point they had a waterfront terminal. The ferry slips are still on the map as are the ones for the Erie. BTW the PRR terminal was not called Exchange Place. It was Harbourside Terminal. The H&M station is called Exchange Place because that is where you exchanged trains from PRR to H&M.
I have an old Hudson County map which shows rail lines in Jersey City terminating at the river all the way from Greenville to the Hoboken border.
Can someone give me more detail on past and present rail lines on the Jersey waterfront, when they folded, when the started, expansions, contractions, ferries (where did they dock in Manhattan?), and their present disposition (as an NJT line, abandoned line, obliterated line, freight line, HBLR line).
For the ferries, a good place to look is Brian Cudahy's "Over and Back" a MASSIVE history of the Hudson and East River ferryboats; and since the RRs were tied in so closely to the ferries, and good deal about the RRS too.....Your local library SHOULD have a copy of it, or be able to get a copy of it for ya... [Cudahy is just as,if not more, fanatical about ferries as he is about traction...]
Obtain a copy of the USGS Jersey City Quadrangle or the Hagestrom atlas for Hudson County. Both show you the locations of rail lines and ferry slips. I highly recomend the USGS map. Try and get the one that was updated in the 80's.
Where can I find the USGS atlas? Without buying it?
Local library or a local university library or a local univeristy geology department or public building that has some sort of srchive.
Actually The PRR Exchange Place Terminal (and that IS what it was called-just look in any Pennsy timetable of the era...it just got called Harborside so much because of those warehouses there......)hung on way longer than it should have. It basically had become obsolete way back in 1911 when Penn Station and the Manhattan Transfer opened up: even though the PRR tried to discourage commuter traffic into Penn Station by charging extra, people still loved that one seat ride. And if they wanted to change to the H&M for Wall St,it was done much easier at Manhattan Transfer (across the platform as opposed to down/up a flight of stairs..),and when the Transfer was closed, at Newark, so basically the PRR used it as a place to end its Jersey Shore/Mainline locals, some of which used steam way into the 50's! I bet a HERD of people crossed over from their MP-54s over to the H&M at Newark, especially since they could use their PRR communtation passes on the H&M......
Well from 1911 to 193whenever I don't think you can really say that Penn Station was a commuter station and Harbourside was obsolete. The 3rd rail and power change operation does not go along with commuter operations. There were not enough locomotives and it would have taken too long. The PRR was right to use the alternate terminal at least until the wires came in from Trenton.
You are absolutely right Mike! It was only when the PRR opened NEWARK,while also putting the catenary up, that really doomed Exchange Place. Then at that time is when they started to lay in the MP-54s,and geting rid of some of their steam power, Penn Station (NY) became a viable commuter station. Just as a sidelight, one of the neat things that Amtrak is able to do with the West Side connector is running special excursions to Shea Stadium from Albany....
OOPS! I meant opening up the Newark Penn Station, while at the same time moving the H&M from Park Place....
The big one that you left out was the NYC at Weehawken, now Port Imperial. The NYC shared that with the NYO&W.
There was also the Hudson River Trolley Line terminal to the north of that, at Edgewater, if you want to count trolleys.
Try the carfloat website at:
http://bjr.acf.nyu.edu/railinfo/car-floats/nyccf-misc.html
There was also an EXCELLENT article in Railroad magazine (ca. 1944) entitled "boxcar navy" that was all about the NYC waterfront railroad infrastructure.
I've posted a map:
Washington Blvd and Marin Blvd. I'm not going to keep it up forever, so if you want to know what I'm talking about, VISIT NOW!
Comparing the map you posted w/ a Hagstrom map that I have which still shows long gone rail lines (like the rail yard that BJs etc sits on) may help (I hope).
On my map there is a yard w/ trackage running north/south btwn Cole St and the Conrail tracks shown on the posted map. According to my map that conrail line is two tracks, but I cross that line at New York Ave many times a week and I am 99.9999999% sure it is only a single track. That second track seems to connect to an abandoned track that crosses Jersey Ave between 18th Street and Newark Ave. and eventually on the western side of JC ties into the NYS&W trackage.
But the viaducts in question run perpendicular to that rail yard. Does anyone know what is on the western side of Jersy Avenue? I'd go check right now but I'd run into Friday rush hour. Maybe I'll go look tomorrow...
Hmmm -- it just dawned on me... that second track (well its ROW) at New York Ave must be that dirt road now that I have used to avoid traffic. And it must be the ROW for the HBLR thru Hoboken. I have to check my map of the Hoboken routing later...
-- David
metrolink a diesl powered commuter train network in the los angeles and surrounding communities
was labeled by many of the poor white the black latino and others as being a .................................
"" rich white folks ride""" !!!!! this label was coined by the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS & TRANSIT UNION..etc..
now excuse me folks but many transit dependent ( mostly los angeles ) transit dependent riding public
see METROLINK and most of the rail projects ( especially the red line ) as a system for mostly the
rich white elite and to the exclusion to the of most of us who are transit dependent including poor whites also !
anyway hopefully this will clear this up !! METROLINK was seen as this also by the same transit union !!
Not everything will serve everybody. You get your blue line, the whites can get the red line. You and your racism would rather that the white trash (your words, not mine) get nothing and you get everything.
The funding that should go to your community is the funding that pays to get you a nice new brain.
Pigs, you just don't get the hint do you....
-Dave
Rim shot!!!!
slam dunk !..
[metrolink a diesl powered commuter train network in the los angeles and surrounding communities was labeled by many of the poor white the black latino and others as being a .................................
"" rich white folks ride""" !!!!! this label was coined by the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS & TRANSIT UNION..etc..]
I've said this once already, but you didn't seem to get the point, so here goes again: the bus riders' union is Los Angeles is *not* a reliable source of information. They seem to enjoy playing the race card and making deliberately provocative statements. Please do not compare them to responsible organizations like the Straphangers' Coalition.
I joined the Bus Riders Union early on, thinking it was a grass roots vehicle for improving public transit in Los Angeles. What a disappointment. They are adamantly opposed to any form of rail transportation and insist that all of MTA's funds be spent on the bus system. I agree that MTA has been wasteful in building the Red Line subway, and that the bus system has been overlooked. BUT, there has to be a balance. We need rail, we need more rapid transit, we need more light rail. We also need a bus system that feeds the rail system. I suggest that the BRU has a different agenda. It does not speak for the majority of Los Angeles' transit riders. It plays the race card and it plays the class card. Los Angeles, if it is to prosper in the next century, needs a transit system that serves all of its residents with a coordinated network of buses, light rail, subway, and commuter rail.
metrolink really does not serve anyone except at best the mostly white communities and well to do areas
not south central los angeles and most of los angeles !! rather riders seem to come from out there in
the simi valley claremont orange and san bernadino counties... the red line subway to nowere goes where
most los angeles transit riders dont go !! ........( and almost no ridership at all ).......
the green line ( one car service only ) misses the boat ( does not go into los angeles airport )....
the blue line was the only rail system done halfway right except it will not connect to the still unfinished
pasadena blue line.... ( check out that website ) SORRY IF I DID NOT SPELL EVERYTHING RIGHT !!
[I joined the Bus Riders Union early on, thinking it was a grass roots vehicle for improving public transit in Los Angeles. What a
disappointment. They are adamantly opposed to any form of rail transportation and insist that all of MTA's funds be spent on the bus system. I agree that MTA has been wasteful in building the Red Line subway, and that the bus system has been overlooked. BUT, there has to be a balance. We need rail, we need more rapid transit, we need more light rail. We also need a bus system that feeds the rail system. I suggest that the BRU has a different agenda. It does not speak for the majority of Los Angeles' transit riders. It plays the race card and it plays the class card.]
I have my suspicions about the BRU's true motives. It seems as if Metrolink - which the BRU opposes - has been reasonably successful at attracting new riders to transit, while the BRU's favored buses, in Los Angeles as in many other cities, are used mainly by the transit-dependent and enjoy little public support. My query: does the BRU have a "secret" agenda of opposing *all* transit? Coming right out in favor of that probably wouldn't be successful. But promoting the unloved and unwanted buses at the expense of the more successful Metrolink might well accomplish the same goal.
my response being a resident in pasadena california check out the anti pasadena blue line website
..........http://www.noblag.org/........ or enter in your search engine in small letters PASADENA BLUE LINE
and click on the BLAG site or the anti pasadena blue line site !!
like the metrolink or that "HOLE IN THE GROUND" red line subway to nowhere ( except to displace homes and business ) !!
i do like the BUS RIDERS UNION however it should become the SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA TRANSIT RIDERS UNION !!
now that sounds better to me for example THE MYTH that foothill transit is the most outstanding transit system of all time !!!
GIVE ME A #$%%%%^&&**@$$% DAMMED BREAK !!!!!...........
Here in southern california we need good rail transit very bad but as i put on my last post about the NO BLAG
issue running the BLUE LINE thru pasadena at railroad crossing street grade level is just not the right thing to do !!
NO WONDER the bus riders union gets so mad i cannot blame them !
thank you and what do you think about that anti PASADENA BLUE LINE website what do you think about that !!
and who enginered the idea of the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE not being connected to the PASADENA BLUE LINE !!
my response being a resident in pasadena california check out the anti pasadena blue line website
..........http://www.noblag.org/........ or enter in your search engine in small letters PASADENA BLUE LINE
and click on the BLAG site or the anti pasadena blue line site !!
like the metrolink or that "HOLE IN THE GROUND" red line subway to nowhere ( except to displace homes and business ) !!
i do like the BUS RIDERS UNION however it should become the SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA TRANSIT RIDERS UNION !!
now that sounds better to me for example THE MYTH that foothill transit is the most outstanding transit system of all time !!!
GIVE ME A #$%%%%^&&**@$$% DAMMED BREAK !!!!!...........
Here in southern california we need good rail transit very bad but as i put on my last post about the NO BLAG
issue running the BLUE LINE thru pasadena at railroad crossing street grade level is just not the right thing to do !!
NO WONDER the bus riders union gets so mad i cannot blame them !
thank you and what do you think about that anti PASADENA BLUE LINE website what do you think about that !!
and who enginered the idea of the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE not being connected to the PASADENA BLUE LINE !!
my response being a resident in pasadena california check out the anti pasadena blue line website....
..........http://www.noblag.org/........ or enter in your search engine in small letters PASADENA BLUE LINE
and click on the BLAG site or the anti pasadena blue line site !!
like the metrolink or that "HOLE IN THE GROUND" red line subway to nowhere ( except to displace homes and business ) !!
i do like the BUS RIDERS UNION however it should become the SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA TRANSIT RIDERS UNION !!
now that sounds better to me for example THE MYTH that foothill transit is the most outstanding transit system of all time !!!
GIVE ME A #$%%%%^&&**@$$% DAMMED BREAK !!!!!...........
Here in southern california we need good rail transit very bad but as i put on my last post about the NO BLAG
issue running the BLUE LINE thru pasadena at railroad crossing street grade level is just not the right thing to do !!
NO WONDER the bus riders union gets so mad i cannot blame them !
thank you and what do you think about that anti PASADENA BLUE LINE website what do you think about that !!
and who enginered the idea of the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE not being connected to the PASADENA BLUE LINE !!
For lack of a better thing to call it at the moment.
The R142, and presumably the R143, will have a station-by-station LED indicator, showing where you are. How easily can they be changed? Are they plug-in cartridges, or are they LED indicators with a changable face?
I figure either way, it will be a PITA to use the cars on a different line each day, as can happen with many cars. You'd have to have personnel go through the entire change out all the station indicators, no matter how they are made. No '5' to Brooklyn, '2' to the Bronx, at least, not with accurate signs.
-Hank
If they only had a map that showed the full A division, no map changing would happen.
Click here to see my idea of what it would look like.
But that would just confuse the passengers. (I didn't look at your map)
-Hank
If they only had a map that showed the full A division, no map changing would happen.
Click here to see my idea of what it would look like. (190K)
If you look inside the 142 trains you can see led arrows and a row of dots. I bet they will put a strip map over them, with a station at each dot. But I don't see how they would do the five line, since there is only one row (what about the 238st trains, and when the trains go to Flatbush?). How would they show peak-direction express trains?
A better point than mine. Obviously, if the train gets re-routed while in-service, I wouldn't expect the signs to keep up. Likewise, I wouldn't expect proper operation during a GO. But exactly how does the sign know where it is? I'd assume it comes from 'open doors, close doors, move the train' logic (since the doors can be opened and closed repeatedly at a single station), but what if a station is skipped? Does the operator or conductor have a button to push to keep those signs as up-to-date as possible?
-Hank
about the "where are we indicators" i have been told
by one of my impeccable sources, that there has been
a major computer problem with these indicators--- it
seems that they came out of the manufacturers,
programmed to permanently display:
ALL CUSTOMERS OFF--- THIS BRAND NEW TRAIN IS BEING
TAKEN OUT
OF SERVICE SO THAT IT CAN BE TESTED FOR ANOTHER 5
YEARS--- AS SOON AS THIS TRAIN IS TOWED OUT OF THE STATION THERE IS A RELIABLE RUSTING
REDBIRD THAT WILL TAKE YOU TO YOUR DESTINATION---SORRY FOR THE INCONVENIENCE--- THANK YOU
FOR YOUR COOPERATION---BE SURE TO WATCH THIS MONTH'S
TRANSIT
TRANSIT SHOW
PLEASE!!! No scrolling text!!!
It took 4 scrolls for me to read the whole thing. I swear, if I ever find the guy who came up with the marquee and blink tags, I'll kill him.
-Hank
I just looked at the HTML source code. The way to do it varies from browser to browser. In Internet Explorer, it's under the View menu
View > Source.
hank--- thank you for the feedback about the
scrolling text
he has his nerve trying to telling me what to do
although you are the only one who posted a complaint
about the scrolling, i want to assure you that every
person is important to me
i don't care about you or anyone else
i have tried all my life to please other people and
put my own feelings aside, as a result i can
guarantee you that i will never do anything to upset
you again
if he thinks i am going to change to please him he's
nuts
if ever you have a problem with anything i say or do
on this message board, do not hesitate to let me
know
anytime i see his name on a post, i definitely will ignore it
Those voices in your head are starting to take over, dude. A public message board is definately NOT the place to experiment with HTML. At the most, if you're going to do it, ONE line should scroll, not an entire paragraph.
At least you closed your tags. Someone else around here left open a href tag, and I wound up on another site, instead of reading the next message, like I had wanted.
Oh, yeah: Those voices? Well, I'm in control! :)
-Hank
hey hank--- just to show you that there are no hard
feelings, let me send you one of my r-9 audio
tapes... i will specially prepare one with a
subliminal message which will change your life
forever... it will stimulate you to become a railfan
window photographer, as well as cause you to write
in only capitals and exclamation points... this
is what happens to people who mess with me... salaam
was a nice quiet man before he he made the mistake
of complaining about his three day trip on
greyhound.... after he listened to my r-9 tape i
sent him, he was never the same...
Have you considered (what you would do to someone with) a career in psychiatry?
-Hank :)
i fell out laughing after reading your last two posts !! heypaul sent me the R-9 audio tape then after
seeing new york city subway resources i woke up from a long sleep and caught the RAILFAN-WINDOW-VIRUS !!!!!
the only way i could be cured is to catch the DOG ( greyhound) all the way back to new york city !!!!
now i have a wonderful subway railfan vidieo collection and are getting great reviews for them !!!!!
in conclusion i would rather need help for NYC subway addiction than any other illness !! ( peace ).....
Heypaul, I tink that was your funniest post yet!
..and I "tink" I better spell-check my posts before sending!
thanks bob--- yeah i think that it ranks up there with my chain saw massacre post as well as my announcement that metal detectors were going to be activated on the turnstyles... i must give credit for the inner thoughts expressed in scrolling text coming partly from woody allen's annie hall as well as bela lugosi talking to himself in the devil bat... and i must thank hank for triggering off the response...
[bela lugosi talking to himself in the devil bat]
I just watched that movie yesterday. I hope I'm not turning into a Heypaul!
In Boston, wayside sensors tell the automatic announcements/signs on the MBTA 1800-series Red Line cars where they are. The route (destination = Alewife, Braintree, or Ashmont) is set by the operator, so that it can announce "The destination of this train is (fill in the blank)."
They probably can control the maps from the cabs. I know talking buses can be updated by the driver if they get a little off.
During a GO, they would probably just turn the maps off.
waiting at baychester ave. on tuesday of this week i happened to and witness the Bombardier R-142 for the first time. it pulled up on the middle track. it was sleek and stylish. however, what amazed me the most was during its depart from where it was. during acceleration, the train sings a musical tone it sounds so sweet. it also moves so fast. music too my ears. can't wait for it to enter passenger service. have u heard it yet? does it sound like an electronic beeper making a melody? give ur opinion.
Here are some recordings I did of the R142 yesterday at Gun Hill!
R142 Take Off (IT SINGS!)
R142 Stopping
R142 Trip Cock Test Sound
Trevor Logan
I tried to follow your link and got a 403 error code. Is this an error on your part?
While TL Viking #996 is fixing the problem, follow this link and click on Subway Sounds 2000, scroll down to the R-142 sounds section, and listen to your heart's content!
will it work on a mac ??
Yes, but you'll need an MP3 file player. The one I use is SoundApp.
Try:
http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~franke/SoundApp/
You'll need to setup your web browser to save mp3 files as SoundApp files (file type WAVE, creator type SCPL) - it'll also handle every other format out there, and I find it's a lot better than the Quicktime player (I think it requires quicktime to run, however, but unless you've got an acient machine, you've got it installed anyway)
Ahh, I love that SOUR door chime! Was that #6119?
See if you can find R46 #5927 and record THAT door chime. It's definitely different. And while I'm at it, I may as well mention R68 #2658 - that's one for the musical reference books as the STRANGEST door chime in the entire NYCT, unless Train Dude has had it pulled and fixed, that car being his charge.
Wayne
Does one of those have a chime that goes up an octave, instead of down a third? I rode one with this weird upwards-sounding chime, while the rest of the cars in the train seemed to have the normal ding-dong.
The sick dorrbell on my site was from #5610. At the time I recorded it, it was on a Manhattan-bound R train at the 46th Street station.
OK, now you've piqued my curiosity. Just how do 2658's door chimes sound like? Are the pitches oddly spaced (a tritone, perhaps)? I have a sound bit of R-46 door chimes, and they sound good.
Sounds like:
*above middle c*
E-G G-F#-F- E
(8ths) (triplet) (quarter)
Normal chime is:
E - C (or) D# - B
Wayne
I recorded a doorbell of R44 5346 and put it on my site. It sounds half of the first tone, then is quiet the rest of the way. I also have an MP3 of a ride from 168th Street to 125th Street on the site, too. Check it out!
Oh, PHEW! Permission Denied, says the Unix Box.
Wayne
u tried to set it up but it didn't come out. it sent me to yahoo.
i heard it sing in acceleration but not on deceleration. i will go back to witness it though
Best place to hear it is at Pelham Pkway, train always shows up there, though sometimes they can go for hours running it from just outside the N. exit of the tunnel to Baychester. Doesn't make any musical tones on deceleration, unless they are moving slowly. I think the sound alternates from low to medium pitch when moving slowly. One person on board said they expected the train to be in service at the end of the summer if the testing goes well. I sure hope he meant that mostof the trains will be in service by then. I don't think I can go that long just watching them leave Pelham Pkway and speed by Gun Hill Road.
Do they stop at Pelham Parkway? Do they open their doors there?
I'd love to get an interior shot before the vandals have their way with them.
Maybe I'll get lucky and see #6304-II.
Wayne
They stop, sit there from anywhere between 4 and 40 minutes, and open one door at each end manually and sometimes one in the middle. The seats and floor are covered by translucent paper and the floor covered by cardboard (though there is a section in one of the kawasakis without covering). Wires everywhere.
They don't work onmy system, every player I have reports "not a vaild .wav format".
Try again???
Didn't work.
Not bad!
I got an error message HTTP 1.0 access denied error 403
I got to them through the R142 page at http://street.to/transitalk. Once you're on the page with the moving picture of a bus, scroll down and click on "New York Metro Photography & Rosters page" (it will have a picture of an R-142) Once you get there, scroll down to where it says "The TransiTALK Image Showroom." Click on "Metropolitan Transportation Authority Photography." Click on the picture with the R-110B cars and the RTS bus in it. (it's located below the picture of the MetroCard.) Click on "Subway." Click on either the Kawasaki or the Bombardier picture. On the Bombardier page, click on "R-142 Subway Cars." On the Kawasaki page, click on "R-142A Subway Cars".
Scroll down a bit on either page to see 3 links under the heading "Sounds." This is where you can hear the sounds.
Sometimes you get script errors. Just click "Yes" when it asks if you want to continue running scripts on the page.
Can anyone who has heard both the sound of the R-142 and the sound of the Market Frankford M4 compare them?
Very similar - almost identical. However, I last heard the MFL in February and heard the Kawasaki R142 only once. I may not be a reliable source.
I've noticed that in a row of Metrocard turnstiles, each turnstile has a different note then the one next to it after someone succesfully swipes through. Does anyone know what these tones are and if they're always the same for a turnstile in a given location (for example facing the turnstiles from the outside is the leftmost turnstile always a b sharp)?
Talked to a friend of mine at Cubic Engrg. who doesn't think the turnstiles are "designed" to utter different tones, but he'll ask around and therefore may come back with a different answer in a few days. If I hear anything I'll be happy to pass it along.
Mr t__:^)
Is there some purpose to all the beeping by the turnstiles?
one beep- Go!(everyhting is OK!), Two beeps- swipe again. Three beeps-insufficient fare (on the card). The beeps help station agents assist the customers. I am in the booth as a lunch relief and when I hear repeated beeps it gets my attention and then I can ask the customer to come to the booth to let me check their card which could have gone bad.
And four beeps means back up ... sorry about that, it's a, newly qualified, trolley operator inside joke :-)
Mr t
I got a "how are you doing" call from a Cubic salesman I know, so I asked him about turnstile tones. He replied yep ! they do in fact make different tones based on the type of customer that passes thru them. Apparently the tones mimic the lights, e.g. green, yellow, etc.
He was also surprised that a "customer" had noticed this.
Mr t__:^)
Well, it had to happen soon enough, even with the password system some people just can't play nicely with the other children. So, I deleted some posts. I'm not sure why I have to keep doing this. I'm sure that you aren't really morons.. do you just play them on the web? Those of you involved will realize who I'm talking about, I have three people in mind specifically.
If it happens again I'll delete your access as well as your posts. Call it censorship or whatever you want, you guys can denigrate each other on someone else's bbs.
-Dave
Thank you, Dave.
These things acquire a life of their own and some times it gets hard to resist.
[Thank you, Dave.
These things acquire a life of their own and some times it gets hard to resist.]
Ditto. Now if only you'd delete some posts on Usenet .
Usenet? is that thing still around? :-) Just kidding...
Usenet may not be around in the UK for much longer following a recent libel case against an ISP. I understand that as the US has a constituton that cannot happen on your side (citizens ver subjets). Well will have to see how this milestone case affects other UK ISPs.
Simon
[Usenet may not be around in the UK for much longer following a recent libel case against an ISP. I understand that as the US has a constituton that cannot happen on your side (citizens ver subjets). Well will have to see how this milestone case affects other UK ISPs.
Simon]
Amazing. One can only hope that cooler heads prevail.
While American libel laws are for constituional reasons less strict than their British counterparts, AFAIK there's no constitutional protection for an ISP who unknowingly carries libelous material. Fortunately, Congress stepped in and gave ISP's a status equivalent to that of a common carrier such as a telephone company. That same act of Congress played to public hysteria by banning Internet content not appropriate to children, but the Supreme Court struck down those provisions as a violation of freedom of speech, leaving protections for ISP's in place.
That case leaves ISPs in a difficult position, do they check everything everyone writes ? I am sure common sense will prevail and we will eventually understand that the internet is the paper and not the pen.
Simon
Swindon UK
Thanks Dave ... you have my full support, not that you need it.
Mr t__:^)
I'll second that.
All bets down on who it was. Dollars to Doughnuts Mr. LA transit system was one of them.
PS (to Dave): I'm not sure if it really matters now, but did you delete that "Why I dislike conservitives" post. Its not because I was upset by the content, it was because every post was dupped 17 times! For about 2 weeks I had to spend like 2 min scrolling down to read posts that came before it. If that happens again could you revome the dieviant post, no matter what the subject. It can become quite annoying and can also eat up the bandwidrth.
> every post was dupped 17 times!
I bet this was a bug in the software, a race condition if two followups are posted at the same time. I've seen the "children" list have duplicate posts in them. It doesn't happen too often though. You can tell this if all the dupe posts have the same post number... I don't remember deleteing a thread like that offhand, however.
i think it was the e.g.train aka pig . anyone know if here will be a museum train run ??
Exactly what posts were deleted? I posted yesterday evening in the R142 bulkhead sign thread, yet this post seems to have disappeared.
BTW, it was completely on topic and worded in an unoffensive manner.
Look harder. I still see your post #108438 posted at 18:33:58 last night.
The posts deleted were all ad hominem attacks between three particular posters and were in their own thread.
-Dave
It's not on my list. In fact, I only see 3 posts from 18:00 to 19:00 time period, which means something is wrong on my end.
Has anyone posted a response to it?
In fact, post 108438 was one I made tonight, not yesterday.
You're right, that's my mistake, your 18:33 post was from tonight...
It's possible i got one of yours by accident, if so I apologize.
Dave, you're doing a hell of a job. You have deleted a couple of mine but no sweat. By the way, what train is your favorite? You have referred to a number of things in your individual threads but never have said much about your favorites. Are you connected to the NYC Transit Department in any way?
Nope, I don't work for them in any way shape or form. This is purely a hobby for me. I don't have any "connections" except for the few NYCT employees who post here (the ones I know of, anyway)
As for my favorites, well... not having grown up near the subway I don't have any sentimental attachment to any particular line. For pure scenic value I kind of like the Brighton Line (plus you have full express services and Nathan's at the end-- but lets not start another Nathan's thread :-) The IRT 2/5 el in the Bronx is a good trip too. Lots of twists and turns passing real close to buildings in some places, express runs...
-Dave
no biggie, I was just curious as to where it went.
chris--- i deleted that message--- i am trying to weed out inoffensive, middle of the road posts from the board--- be more forthright--- use more !!!! points--- try some html--- besides we all know that the r-142's don't exist, so why waste time talking about them.........
Damn, why can't I display my militant moderate political views!????
Hold it right there. Just how many of you out there have the power to delete posts. I thought it was in the hands of Dave since he's website host. Is their a board of directors,and if so, whom?
I'm the only one who can delete posts. heypaul is, as usual, yanking your chain. And besides, were I to appoint someone else, do you think it would be heypaul?!?!?!?! :-)
-Dave
LOL
I don't know if I am taking this personally or not.
But as a well rounded transit buff, it seems that there has been a lot of anti-R142 comments made about the new cars.
This is very upsetting. Only because I feel that there is some narrow mindedness going on here. I understand that everyone loves the "redbirds," I do too! But you know it's hard to except that 85% of the posters here are so anti-R142. The cars haven't had a chance to prove themselves and yet there are negative comments, If I remember correctly, there were negative comments about them before they came of the assembly line. My god, give technology a chance. I for one think that when the R142s go into service, a lot of people are gonna, as Mr. LA would put it, "Eat Crow."
Can you please tell me your views on it?
Trevor Logan
http://street.to/transitalk
I love the R142s. As a T/O, I suspect I will make a killing making scrap transfers in the next few years carting off the old and bringing in the new. As a buff, I will miss them but feeding my family and building my portfolio comes first. I am not looking forward to going back to school and learning computers and the like. I remember the R46 fiasco and fear that history will repeat itself at the taxpayers expense. The ALP44s and AEM-7s were very difficult to learn due to modern technology, which should be graduated in the NYCTA, not shoved in on a 1400 car order.
--Mark
trevor--- the subject heading of your post is
unclear... do you mean:
1) david pirmann is a disturbed poster... i doubt
that was your meaning
2) you were directing your post to david pirmann and
it was from a disturbed (upset about the r-142
bashing) poster (trevor logan)
3) you were directing your post to david pirmann and
it was about a disturbed (mentally) poster (heypaul)
in any event... you'll forgive my addressing your
concerns... your post followed a post of mine in
which i stated that the r-142's don't exist... and i
had put up quite a few earlier posts making fun of
the r-142's--- an especially clever one had the
message board permanently wired to tell all
passengers to exit the train as it was going to be
taken out of service for 5 more years of testing...
frankly, i don't care what kind of trains they run
in the subway... i happen to be fond of equipment
that is no longer operating... i am not a regular
rider of the subways, and for the most part riding
the subways bores me.. if i happen to be riding with
some people who are interested in subways, that is
fun...
railfans often persist in their interests in trains
or buses despite negative feedback from friends,
family, or coworkers... that speaks to the railfan's
passion for transit... you obviously have strong
interests in both the bus and rail side of
transit... if another railfan disagrees with you or
speaks mockingly of something you are fond of, well
that's the way they feel... it's about them, not
about you, as a buddhist friend of mine would say...
for your sake, i hope your passion for transit is
not dependent on other people feeling the same way
as you do... i hope it comes from a personal sense
of what is good and beautiful... if other people
don't see things your way, well screw ( the hell
with) them...
It was the second chioce!!!
I understand what you are saying clearly, it also does not make up my mind as a buff, my it is disturbing as a buff to see new equipment not given a fair chance!
Trevor
trevor--- it would be one thing if i were the
manager in charge at the mta of purchasing new
equipment--- if i hated new equipment, and did my
best to keep new technology off the rails, then i
would be blocking actual progress--- however, i am
also interested in transit like yourself, but i
approach the matter with a rather twisted way of
looking at things... i frequently post things in an
attempt to take some of the intense seriousness down
a notch or two... when i suggested that the message
boards on the r-142's had a permanent message
discharging passengers, it was meant to be so silly
as to provoke a laugh... maybe no one else here
needs a laugh, but frequently i am driven to
silliness by the intensity of people's opinions and
attacks on one another... even salaam, a fellow
r-142 basher had gotten so intense, that i made it a
major mission in my life to try to get him to
laugh... last night he admitted that he was laughing
at a series of posts about scrolling text... now
that i accomplished the goal of seeing him laugh, i
will turn my attention to several other subtalkers
who in my opinion are humorously challenged.... i
realize that my work will be resented but i am
driven by unconscious forces beyond my control
Well just to let you know, I have no resentment for you and respect you as a fellow buff!
I hope this is all taken in good faith!
When you get a chance, drop by my site: http://street.to/transitalk
Trevor
trevor--- how much space have you devoted on your site to reporting on my good fortune to have an entire edition of the daily news devoted to me? :>)
within the last couple of weeks, i noticed you had a picture posted on bustalk of the c-49 mack... last tuesday, when i passed flatbush depot, i noticed that it was not sitting in its regular position by one of doors.... what have you done with it??
LOL!
The Mack C-49 is at Jackie Gleason, that's where I took that photo at! It's no longer at Flatbush!
As to your story at the Daily News, I can get something together and post it on my site, just lemme know!
Trevor
>>when i suggested that the message
>>boards on the r-142's had a permanent message
>>discharging passengers, it was meant to be so silly
>>as to provoke a laugh
Well sometimes things are funny because they are true. BTW I haven't stopped laughing yet. Wait, I just did. Nope, nope I'm at it again.
Peace,
ANDEE
I actually thought of putting up an April Fool's Post today titled:
Intellectual Level of Posts at Subtalk Reaches All Time High
Well, my opinion is that I'm not really qualified to judge since I don't work for NYCTA and considering there aren't (m)any R-142's around to base a judgement on.
Obviously the NYCTA has had a history of teething problems with newer cars like the R44/46, but you know, I wasn't around when the redbirds came on line, I'm sure they had their share of problems at first. But, I don't remember hearing about too many problems with the introduction of the R62 fleet, and in fact they have among the best MDBF now.
So far, they've spent a lot of money preparing for the R142 arrival, rebuilbing E180th St Shop for instance, so I suspect they are more than adequately prepared to handle the new fleet.
-Dave
[Obviously the NYCTA has had a history of teething problems with newer cars like the R44/46, but you know, I wasn't around when the redbirds came on line, I'm sure they had their share of problems at first. But, I don't remember hearing about too many problems with the introduction of the R62 fleet, and in fact they have among the best MDBF now.]
One thing to remember is that the R44's and R46's were introduced at what was a very chaotic time for the subway. Things are being run much more competently today, which augurs well for the new fleet.
New equipment is allways a problem but after years of taking care of and rebuilding things it comes time to replace them.
It's a bit like family. You can love and dote on Grandma but some day she will die and you need to be ready. You shouldnt hate the baby, that is the future, because you are afraid she will not be as good as grandma was. Give the kid a chance.
Has anyone on this board been around long enough to know if there was such anger when the redbirds replaced the Lo-Vs? Or when the R-62s (which seem to be the best liked out of all New York OPTO trains, as I understand from posts here) replaced the R22s? Or when any rolling stock was replaced? Or when the B-IVs replaced the old Broad Street Standards etc. ? Were things any different before?
i think there was however to me it seems at least to me that after the r38 subway cars just dont seem
to be made with the same good strong time tested proven materials workmanship quality and long lasting
materials etc.. it does seem that this ""plastic throw away new junk" type of cheap but shiny and new ...
then throw it away again and replace it with new shiny cheap junk !! like some of the new automobiles you cant work on !
i remember in ATLANTA where brand new cars and a brand new system and the passenger doors freeeze shut
everytime it gets cold ??! Quality in workmanship?? check out how long the pre world war 2 cars lasted !!
the R 142s and others most are not made in america anymore by american worrking people says it all to me !!
why did the los angeles red line to nowhere have to order cars made in ITALY ?? the irt low Vs etc were made in the U.S.A. !!
and what and how about those american workers unemployed and not making transit rail cars and subway and light rail cars ?
I'm sure there was anger when the R10s were replaced by R68As.
Hell no. The R10 was missed only by a relatively few numbers of loyal railfans. Most riders along the C line were thrilled to see those old, noisy, un-air conditioned beasts get sent to the junkard. Of course, they were replaced with slightly newer, slightly quieter but still un-air conditioned R30's.
Better than the replacement of the R-30s with nothing.
complain !! complain !! what did the transit public do in the days of the pre world war 2 era ??
moan and WHINE !!...( i dont think so !) people these days are too soft ( and weak) !!!
To no one's surprise, I was sorry to see the last of the R-10s go. OTOH, maybe it was just as well. For one thing, they were no longer on the A. Chris is right: many of those cars which remained until the end were painfully loud, most likely due to out-of-round wheels. Too bad none were mothballed or saved except for the two surviving ones.
I've heard the R-32s made Brighton riders grumble when they first arrived on the scene. It was a double whammy: their roller curtains made no reference to the old Southern Division titles which Brooklynites were used to, plus they didn't have the seating capacity of the Triplexes which they replaced. "Never mind their good looks and jackrabbit-like performance, just give us more seats and train markings we can understand," was the general consensus.
I actually agree. Having nothing to do with markings, the Brighton riders (myself included) were upset at the replacement of the R-68 with the R-40. With me at least, it has nothing to do with age.
I would imagine they must have felt the seats on the R-68s were more comfortable than those on the slants.
too much complaining what did the pre world war 2 subway riders do ?? enjoy thier system !
How do you know? Were you there?
As a matter of fact, many people in the 1920s complained of crowded conditions (not enough lines, alleviated by the IND), dangerous wooden el cars, and the companies complained of the constraints of a 5 cent fare.
When the B-IV's replaced the old Broad St stock, some railfans were sorry to see them go but also excited about the new cars. Almost all riders, who had dealt with several years of problems with the old cars, were very happy to see them disappear.
As a regular rider of Broad St in the mid-70's and again in the early to mid-80's I had mixed feelings about the new cars when they appeared. I liked the old cars but the difference between them and the B-IV's was like night and day. My first trip on the Express sold me on the new guys, though. Even now, after 15+ years of the new cars, I think about the old stock on my infrequent trips on the line.
the broad street subway was replaced with transverse cab cars right ??
Yes, they use transverse cabs, but acutally they have a railfan window. Unlike the R-44, or even SEPTA's regional rail, they have 3 windows behind the cab: one on the door, one to the left, and one to the right. The ones on the door and to the right are plated glass; however, the one to the left is not. You can see what is in of you just as well from that window as from any railfan window. And despite their method of operation, I would consider the Broad Street Subway to be the line that SEPTA runs the best.
question again straight down into the tracks right on that side ?? with out having to shoot a vidieo thru
two sets of glass like most transverse cabs ? i hope my question was understand-able ..?
The cabs on Broad St are convertible, much like those on Washington Metro. Generally, though, the entire cab area is closed to the public at the operating end (the trains are OPTO and operators need to use the left side since many of the platforms are island ones). If you found a sympathetic operator, he/she might let you ride in the cab, but otherwise you'll be shooting through two pieces of glass (and the one between the cab and the passenger compartment is heavily tinted).
The left side of the cab at the non-operating end is supposed to be left open for passengers, since there is a seat in this area, but more often than not I've found that operators keep it locked up.
No, new equipment was always lauded and the equipment it replaced has always derided. At least until the teething prolems all new cars go through began to become noticable.
As a subway conductor, I have been on all types of equiptment and have worked on all of the letter lines. In selecting equiptment, Transit has a group of engineers who design new subway cars. They visit different subway systems all over thwe world, including many in US cities. They then visit train manufacturers. After that, the engineers went back to TA headquarters and met with transit workers- train operators and conductors to get suggestions and ideas for these new cars. They also met with the ridership for their suggestions.
All of these suggestions and ideas were then put into the designing of the R142's and 143's. Not every suggestion can be put into designing the cars, but many were. Unfortunately, plastic is used in all new trains and busses. This is to save money and to reduce weight. Yes, it is true that the older car classes are built stronger and have lasted this long- but someone in the Federal Government approves these designs. Remember the Grumman Busses? The US Department of Transportation made these specs and required bus companies to use this design. I am pretty sure the same goes for trains. They all must be within a certain weight class, along with specs for wiring, lights, air conditioning, windows, motors, speed, etc. The same goes also for Airplanes. Regardless of the manufacturer or model number- the design is also pretty much the same. As long as the Federal Government and US Department of Transportation control designs, we will continue to be stuck with what they want us to ride in- no transportation company can change this especially when the Feds contribute millions of dollars to pay for this equiptment! Local Governments can never afford to pay for it on their own.
If only they'd made more cars like the Redbirds to this day...
Imagine, stainless steel Redbirds!
Brightliners (R32s) would be the B Division counterpart.
Just imagine, A Division cars that look like R32s!
I wonder what they were saying about the Triplexes when they were retired...
People getting upset about new equipment reminds me of an incident in the early 1970's. I was at a showing of railfan films in Manhattan. The presenter had a promotional film from the 1950's from Brooklyn Transit. At one point in the film an excited on screen announcer was standing in front of the old trolleys and was saying how these "slow, worn out streetcars" were going to be replaced by "modern motor coaches". The camera slowly panned to the right revealing row after row of new busses. At that moment the entire audience spontaneously stood up and started throwing coffee cups, soda cans and whatever else was handy at the screen. It was absolute pandemonium.
Isaac (and others): When considering this issue, whom are
you considering? The railfan? The average commuter? The
transit worker? Obviously the responses would be rather different.
Both the transit worker and the commuter have fairly rational
responses to the replacement of equipment. The IRT conductor
was certainly happy to come in out of the cold, slippery steps
of the Low-Vs and into the warmth of a cab for door controls.
Motormen undoubtedly appreciated the improved speed, braking and
ease of operation of the SMEE equipment over the older AMUE
pre-war stuff. The response of the public at large has generally
been enthusiastic for new equipment, when it meets their needs.
The new equipment is judged by rational measures such as seating,
signage, noise & ride comfort, heat & ac, etc. When the new
equipment fell short of the old in some of these categories, e.g.
the replacement of the ABs and D types in the Southern Division,
or more recently, the narrow bucket seats on the R62s, there
were predictably complaints about it.
The railfan, however, judges the new equipment by largely
irrational means or by measures that are meaningful to a railfan
but have little bearing on how the equipment fulfills its primary
mission, which is to transport passengers. Examples of these
concerns would be color, sounds that the car makes, and the
presence or absence of the so-called "railfan window". THere
is also the overwhelming emotional reaction of the loss of something
which is old and familiar. As evidence of this, most (not all)
younger railfans are lamenting the impending loss of the so-called
"Redbird" (more accurately called "Silver Fox") fleet. I predict
that redbird number plates, signs, etc. will command a premium for
the next decade, whereas artifacts of the previous generations, such
as the Hi-Vs or trolley cars, seem to generate minimal interest.
This is the definition of nostalgia: the longing for one's past.
One can not truly have nostalgia for something one never experienced.
If railfans made public transit policy, we'd have a transit system
filled with colorful, disfunctional equipment. When debating the
merits and demerits of, e.g., the R142 order, I'd urge people to
divorce themselves from their nostalgia for the current equipment
and view the situation rationally. Thankfully there are many
museums, preservation groups and clubs to ensure that we preserve
our history appropriately.
Jeff
I agree with you. The bottom line is to provide the riding public with a transportation system from point A to point B. The public expects a reliable system that can be trusted to get them there without fail. Some cities can manage to operate older equipment (Market Street in San Francisco) which is maintain by the majority of individuals who care about craftsmanship.
Accept changes as advancement. Would you accept a 8088 Intel chip or a PIII on your PC? Fly in a 777 or DC8? Ride in a mini van taxi or a Chevy? Progress is what the GNP is all about.
Conductors were also happy to see the old Hi-Vs with their "brutal" manual end doors put out to pasture. One or two Subtalkers who have tried to maneuver the doors on Seashore's Gibbs 3352 can attest to that.
Every new product thay comes out is bound to have a few "teething" problems.This applies to subway cars and everything else. As a mechanical designer who has to also look at electrical functions as well, let me tell you, "nothing is perfect"! Give the R-142 a chance.
We are still having problems with our Philly M-4's - some major ones, I might add, but some day they will be worked out and they will run "like a champ".
Chuck Greene
I'm one of the few who are looking forward to the introduction of the R-142s. Just watching them in testing I can tell they will be great cars. Sure I will miss the redbirds, especially the R36s with the flickering lights. But it is better that they leave us with most people still liking them, rather than waiting until they get into such bad condition and become so outdated and obsolete that people will be praying for their departure.
Thank you, it's about time I heard some kind of positivity about the R142s, the very few that it is. I feel exactly the same as you. I love the redbirds, but the R142s are a welcomed change.
R142 Boi 2K
i hope you can open the windows on those new 142S junks when the air conditioning fails !! ( like in atlanta many times )
its like some of those ""new buildings "" cant open up a (side window) to let in fresh air !!
i know you thought i was going to say "railfan window".... the transverse cab car club will be happy !!
See that's another thing, MORE negativity. My God! YES THE WINDOWS CAN OPEN!
R142 Boi 2K
where can you open those sealed windows mr negative ? and have you done it ??
The R-142 windows can be opened. And as far as air conditioning reliability, this is not Atlanta. NYCT's air conditioning reliability percentage is in the high 90s.
David
how do you open a sealed shut window ? new york does have hot humid days !
LOOK AT THE DAMN PICTURES. THE WINDOWS OPEN. QUIT THE DAMN BASHING.
response in small letters........... where are the ____....pictures ??
I would like to see them in operation as they would be in regular service by a passenger rider !!
question............ is that asking for too much ??
I'm surprised you even know how to read.
yep............. surprised even you .!!!
Thank You DAVID! The windows on the R-142 is similar to those on the R62/R62A. DUH! What kind of commons sense is that to have a train with non-opening windows!
Common Sense here folks!
R142 Boi 2K
However, since salaamallah suffers from PEBKAC (Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair) no rational explanation of anything will effect him. Go read any of his posts (and there are MANY, including multiple postings) and you will see what I mean.
The transit industry found out the hard way about sealed windows with the first GM RTS buses. Almost every operator retrofitted them with better A/C units, and installed openable windows. Almost every transit bus built since comes with openable windows, and every LRV also does. A/C or 2, there's always a chance of failure with any machine. That's why we all have shops - stuff always brakes, road failures always occur.
The folks who planned the subway trains at Denver International Airport also found out the hard way that mechanical equipment actually can fail. Oh, no, these trains will never break down, they claimed. BUZZZZZ!!!! Now they're seriously talking about putting in pedestrian tunnels between the concourses in case of breakdowns. While I've supported the airport from Day One and still do, my response to that is they should have thought of that when the airport was built.
In case you are interested Denver international airport stole money even better than new york transit. The mayor of denvor stole so much money that he was able to bribe himself into the job of secretary of transportation of United States
(4) WoodlawnBowlingGreen
Thank you Dave. It seemed that half the postings were by two individuals.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I too am glad to see that the webmaster took action. Trying to reason with people who don't listen is very difficult. If they don't get their acts straight, then may be the webmaster should deny them access to this board. Apparently, children do roam the site. There's no room for foolishness here. I'd like to get back to talking about trains if people if folks don't mind, and put the mudslinging aside. Also, can we get off the Redbird vs R-142 bit, and the Railfan Window Routine? I'm getting a headache!
-Stef
Hey Stef, does that include the Pelham One-Two-Three and the Manny B as well? That is getting very old too. Suffice to say, I'll believe the southside Manhattan Bridge will reopen when it does.
How often can you talk about a subject? Can you beat a topic senseless? The Manny B Thread and Pelham 1-2-3 threads don't phase me that much probably because I didn't read them frequently. I have no doubt in my mind that the South Side will reopen though....
-Stef
Pelham 1-2-3 is no big deal. I'll tell you what else has been beaten to death: the permutations and possibilities once the 63rd St. connector opens. We'll all find out what gets implemented soon enough. End of discussion.
Considering that all three are at least adults (by age),if any are behaving like children, I suspect that the poster from LA is the principal offender.
I volunteer to be chastized, because I'm pretty sure I was one of the three, although I tried to avoid outright attacks and tried to explain the views of one side to the other side that didn't seem to get it.
-Hank
ok lets shake hands on that one and i will agree on my mistakes including one free vidieo for you !!
Hey Dave Pirmann, did you get that one. The Big Sal, Hammerin' Hank and Royal P have ended the battle. Now we can get on to the business at hand and say why the BMT rules and the IRT sucks, and various and sundry things like that.
I'd settle for a Brighton vs Sea Beach debate myself.-)
And why the IND isn't so bad after all...
Hey Fred do I hear a challange. OK Brighton over Sea Beach 1-Brighton LOCAL and EXPRESS SERVICe. 2-SEA BEACH LOCAL 3-BRIGHTON, EL, EMBANKMAN, UNDERCUT and SUBWAY. 4-SEA BEACH UNDERCUT and SUBWAY (EL later on to Astoria) 5-BRIGHTON TRIPLEX and STANDARDS 6-SEA BEACH-TRIPLEX 7-BRIGHTON Coney Island,(2 stops) Brighton Beach, Ebbets Field(Now Yankee Stadium) 8-SEA BEACH CONEY ISLAND(1 STOP) Need I go On?
Thanks, Dave. I'm glad I was off the board for a few days ... sounds like I missed a bunch of stuff that I'd rather not have read anyway!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Angry Passengers Burn Train Over Delay
March 29, 2000 11:53 am EST
SAO PAULO (Reuters) - Angry commuters in Brazil's city of Sao Paulo, who waited for
hours to board a suburban train early on Tuesday and then spent hours crammed inside
it without it moving, burnt the whole train down, police said.
Local television showed a helicopter view of a long chain of carriages, all of them
smoking or in ashes, after passengers abandoned the train and set it on fire.
A police official said he believed it would be practically impossible to find the culprits of
the arson, which he said completely destroyed the train costing some $1.2 million.
The Sao Paulo-Mogi das Cruzes line experienced traffic problems early on Tuesday,
which caused the unpopular delays.
and they say new yorkers are bad....
[SAO PAULO (Reuters) - Angry commuters in Brazil's city of Sao Paulo, who waited for hours to board a suburban train early on Tuesday and then spent hours crammed inside it without it moving, burnt the whole train down, police said.
Local television showed a helicopter view of a long chain of carriages, all of them smoking or in ashes, after passengers abandoned the train and set it on fire.]
LIRR management take heed.
If the LIRR or the NYCS, etc. subjected New Yorkers to excessive delays and the New Yorkers followed suit by torching train, do you think the LIRR, TA, etc woulc try to improve service or would they call in the national guard and be mean and spiteful?
Well, if it were the TA, first they would discipline the TO and CR for not making proper announcements concerning the delay, thereby calming the passengers.
Brazilians may be a fun loving, partying bunch (like myself), but when they commute, stay away! If you are a thrill seeker, trying driving in Sao Paulo, if you make it to your destination, you can handle anything.
Hate to see what they'd do if the LIRR was in Brazil!!
We might all have to start building fallout shelters again.
The US Military has small nuclear devices which are suitcase sized. Known as SADM's (Small Atomic Demolition Munitions), these would be quite a tool for venting irrational rage.
But they are only about 100 tonnes to 1K tonne in yield so they won't do that much damage, but it would be perfect for urban renual.
The equivalent of a small trainload of TNT is a heluva lot of boom,just the same
I wonder if they were using those old "Central" wooden coaches that they've had in Brazil since the turn of the century. Probably not...
I have a book of "Disasters" from the NY Times and it shows the aftermath of a train of "Central" coaches after being hit by what looks like a Bilevel on a bridge. Not a scratch on the Bilevel but the wooden cars are all over the place in hundreds of pieces. I won't even mention the death toll. It happened on March 4, 1952 outside Rio De Janeiro.
Wayne
I don't know if there were pictures in the NY area newspapers, but there were two photos in the papers out here in California. One showed a train interior, and the carbody itself seemed intact. So I'd assume it was metal. The other photo was an aerial of most of te train, and all the other carbodies were still there though burned.
... has anyone else noted that the ads in PATH cars are so much better? On PATH, you'll see ads for banks, credit cards, colleges and universities (many of which have "take one" information cards), technical jobs fairs, health clubs, and so on. Subway ads seem much more downscale by comparison. Many of them are for social service agencies, never-heard-of-them-before overseas calling plans, dubious medical or dental practices, "have you been injured" lawyers, city agencies warning of the latest disease-of-the-month (asthma and lead poisoning seem to be the favorites), and of course the infamous "Every 12 seconds another woman is battered" and "Could you have a brain injury?" ones. Among the few non-downscale subway ads are the ones covering a half or full car (one of which, for KC Reaction women's shoes, is really pushing the boundaries of good taste).
Most advertisers presumably aim their ads at target audiences. Based on ads, you would tend to think that PATH riders are considerably more affluent than their subway counterparts. Is this really true? Or, as I suspect, does the subway suffer from an unjustified low-rent stigma?
Most of those ads seem to be directed towards the Hoboken yupies going to 33rd Street, World Trade, and Exchange Place. An ad for Stevens Institute of Technology (my alma mater) doesn't make as much sense for a houswife from Newark to see on her way to Pavonia/Newport to go to the mall as it does for some Wall Street type going home to Hoboken who may be looking for a management degree to add to their resume.
On the other hand it seems that the NYC Subway ads _are_ directed to that first individual.
Note: No hard feelings intended to housewives, Newark, ad agencies, etc etc
-- David
I think the average income on PATH probably is considerably higher than on the subway. The overwhelming majority of PATH passengers are connecting to/from the NJT commuter trains and the advertising reflects it (although the advertising does tend to be somewhat Jersey City-centric).
Even though PATH looks and smells like a subway (although rumor has it they've finally de-sulfurized the stairway at Hoboken), it's essentially a commuter train clientele. So the ads look more like the LIRR and Metro-North than the subway.
(And I can't believe that I'm paying so much for car insurance because of "that guy")
Chuck
Does anyone know what company is manufacturing the new M-7 cars for the LIRR? Also, when are they excepted to be put in service and new features will be installed in these cars.
an LE says they won't come for 3 more years, but Bombardier is supposed to be making them.
Recently , last evening as my "A" was approaching Jay st from High St
I was able to catch a good veiw of the switch replacement that has been ongoing thru out the system. Inoticed that the blue stone was removed and the ties were sitting on several layers of what appeared to be 1 X 6's . I recall long ago when the IRT had concret poured around it's ties that the ties were shimmed or elevated on metal jacks.
Will the wooden shimmes be replace by metal jacks prior to the concret pour? If not , do they pose a potential rot problem?
BTW , all switch replacements that I,ve encountered are niccccce and smoooooooooth with less side sway. Now if we could olny eliminate the unweleded segments I'll be able to eavys drop alot easier.
avid
So they're just replacing the A1/B1 double crossover, and not removing it?
YES SIR, that explains why the "F" runs on the "G" late at night.
But the points and frogs have been completely removed from A1 there, they remain only on B1. That seems like a screwy way to rebuild something.....
Patience, Rome was not torn down in a day.
avid
B"H
I noticed the same thing too on the 2/5 line just east/south of Franklin ave, where they did a major replacement of the rails and ties on the curves. For at least a month, the ties were supported by what appeared to be stacks of wood. very weird and unnerving. I haven't been that way in a few weeks, so by now they may have poured the concrete. What I can say however is that the new curves are soooooo much smoother and quieter than before. No more of that jittery feeling when rounding the curve. :o)
THE INSTITUTE OF ELECTRICAL AND ELECTRONICS ENGINEERS, INC.
NY Section
Vehicular Technology and Communication Society
Technology Sharing Forum
April 10. 2000. from 6:00 to 8:00 PM.
Nortel Networks will host this forum 320 Park Avenue, NYC.
The IEEE NY Section Vehicular Technology and Communication Society will co-sponsor a technology sharing forum. The panel will provide an overview of the new NYC Transit Rail Control Center system planning requirements, system integration, and standards for:
. Automatic Train Supervision (ATS)
. Communication Based Train Control (CBTC)
. Public Address and Passenger Information System (P A/CIS)
Lead panelists are David M. Weiss, NYC Transit Rail Control Center Program Manager, a Senior IEEE Member; and Alan Rumsey , IEEE CBTC Standards Committee Chairman and Parsons Transportation Group Project Manager. ATS, CBTC, PA/CIC engineers, suppliers, and installers will be invited to share insights.
Future IEEE NY Section, Vehicular and Communications Society Technology Sharing forums are being planned for:
. Fiber Optic Communications networks for Rail Vehicle control,
. LIRR and AMTRAK Control Center,
. NYC Transit R-142 Rail Car propulsion, control, and signage,
. Automatic Bus Location and Control Systems,
. Wayside and Railcar P A and Customer Information Systems,
. Hybrid Bus Technology
There will be no charge for refreshments, commencing at 5:30 PM, or for the forum. However, the forum will be limited to thirty participants. Earliest and IEEE Member responses will be given priority for participation.
Communicate your interest in attending the April 10,2000, Nortel Networks hosted forum by e-mail to
ken_vought@ieee.org.
or fax to Kenneth E. Vought, P.E. at RT&T Inc. (914) 271-5247. IEEE Members are invited to indicate preferences and interest in serving as a panelist on one or more of the planned forums.
back to those beautiful BMT "B"s was 1978 the last time they did museum runs ?? I HOPE NOT !!
also as i looked thru the thumnails on them it seems like this was so !! what a shame !!
sure would like to pay to see tnem again !! my question again will he BMT "B"s ever run again as museum trains ??
The very last time The Nostalgia Special in the fall of 1980 The Museum AB's were used. I dont know whether or not the cars were chartered any private events. There no fan trips after 1979 using the Museum AB's.
It has been reported here before that Mike Hanna, Mark W. and others are restoring the 3 Standards at Coney Island. I believe Mark said that they're OK from a operational standpoint. The EXTENSIVE work that is being done is structural. This a number of us saw first hand on the tour sponsored by NY Div. ERA, May 1999. Shoreline/Branford has one, 2775. She's been "stablized" but is not currently operational.
Check out Dave's FAQ section for photo's and additional detail about them.
Mr t__:^)
03/31/2000
"The very last time The Nostalgia Special in the fall of 1980 The Museum AB's were used. I dont know whether or not the cars were chartered any private events. There no fan trips after 1979 using the Museum AB's. "
I was on that last run of the B-types as well as the Nostlagia Special. I remember when we pulled into 57th St. and 6th Ave. the B-types developed some sort of problem with the traction motor. And that was the last time I rode on a B-type (yikes,20 years ago)so the trainset hasn't run in years.
Bill Newkirk
Salam,
May I complement you on a reasonable, non-inflamatory, and on-topic post? You didn't even mention the words "Railfan window" or "Video"! :-)
On your question, you can sometimes see a group of AB's from a passing F train as you pass the Ave. X yard - I'm not sure if they actually are operational, though.
subfan
wait a minute !! i dont post inflamitory and off topic ( no more than anybody else) also here it goes ""railfan vidieo""
and ""railfan window vidieo" I just sent off six (6) hour vidieos today to a nice person ( hope i still get good reviews )....
can you see the ABs from a passing Q train ?? does it pass he X yard next fall when I am in New York again !!!
also your comment on the pasadena no BLAG anti PASADENA BLUE LINE ( at grade ) moement ??? your comments sir ?..
Salam,
My comment was intended as a bit of "tounge-in-cheek" reinforcement of the recent non-controversial nature of your posts; please do not take it the wrong way - the last thing I want to do is start another thread about what is or isn't inflamatory. I'm not quite sure what you are referring to when you make the comment about the Pasadena Blue line; I didn't mention anything about it; I don't know the slightest thing about the LA rail system, and wouldn't presume to comment on it. Regarding your Avenue X yard question, the Q doesn't pass the Avenue X yard; only the F does, shortly before it turns into the lower level of the combined Brighton/Culver el structure at West 8th St. (not immidiately before the turn; a few blocks previous). Hope this helps.
subfan
sorry to hear the bmt bs are not doing museum runs anymore !
sorry to hear the bmt bs are not doing museum runs anymore !
sorry to hear the bmt bs are not doing museum runs anymore !..
When I was a child, I remember my parents taking me to Coney Island on the New Utrecht Ave. trolley. The last stop seemed to be a huge indoor terminal with many tracks. Did the New Utrecht Ave., Coney Island Ave. and Macdonald Avenue trolleys share the same terminal at Coney Island and where was it located in relationship to the Stillwell Ave. subway station ?
The New Utrecht Avenue trolley was actually the West End trolley which replaced the West End L surface operation when the current structure was opened.
The Coney Island and McDonald cars used W.5th St. Depot, on the west side of W5th Street at Sea Breeze Ave. This depot was the old Coney Island & Brooklyn Depot, and was adjacent to former Culver Depot. The trolley turnaround was 3 or 4 tracks, IIRC, and was covered (in a building).
I'm not sure if the West End trolley ever used W.5. I know it ran for a time down Stillwell to or near Surf Ave. I suppose it might have turned around in the area now used by Mermaid buses.
The Trolleys from Bensonhurst like the 86th St Terminated under the Stillwell Terminal like the current B 64 which replaced the old car lines.
What was the northern terminus of the New Utrecht Ave. Trolley coming from Coney Island ?
About what year where you talking about? The New Utricht Trolley was discontinued before WWII
That is not true. I was born on October 14th, 1942 during the war. If I remember correctly the war ended in 1945. I do specificly remember riding the New Utrecht Ave. trolley all the way to Coney Island and it was on a Sunday. I also remember V-E Day & V-J Day. It could not have possibly ceased operations before the war.
KING SOLOMON
Actually the New Utrich Trolley was the 38 WEST END and its last run was 6/28/47. The routing was not from Coney island. It started from 25th & Harway(The Current Ulmer Park Garage) via Bath Ave, New Utricht Ave, 39th St to First Ave. It ran out of 9th Ave Surface Garage. During the Summer weekends it did cars to Coney Island. (Sourse Brooklyn Trolleys by Greller & Watson)
Is it possible for a train to travel from Rockaway Park direct to Far Rockaway. Does a direct track link exist or would the train have to go back up to the mainland to make that journey ?
There is one track that connects both branches of the Rockaway Lines. It last saw use in revenue service back in the 1980s, when a Rockaway Round Robin service was being operated from Rockaway Park to Far Rockaway to Euclid Av in Brooklyn (at night). These days, the track only sees non-passenger moves for equipment travelling to or from Rock Pk Yard or for construction requiring special operations. Trains from Rock Park to Far Rockaway travel in the normal direction of traffic; however traffic coming from Far Rock to Rock Pk must cross from the Manhattan Bound Track to Far Rock Bound track and travel by the one track connection and cross over from what is now the Manhattan Bound Track on the Rock Park Branch to the track heading to Rock Park.
Need more clarification? There are track maps on this site which you can refer to, and it will give you a better picture of what the A line is like over in that area.
Hope This Helps,
Stef
I remember the Round Robin. Also lets not forget that when the LIRR operated on those tracks there was regular service through Far Rockaway (from the present Far Rock branch in Nassau) to Rockaway Park. As a matter of fact after the fire that closed the Rockaway Branch but before the IND took it over that was the only way the LIRR went to Rockaway PK.
the
SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff page
my MEMORIAL to ROOSEVELT RACEWAY
And after that portion of the line was closed, LIRR trains no longer travelled to Rock Park by the trestle, but instead travelled on the Far Rockaway Branch and proceeded to Rockaway Park until the LIRR gave up that service, while NYCT took over with an extended A train.
-Stef
The connection is at an area of the Rockaways called Hammels. And that is why the junction there is called Hammels' "Y". It's the split between the Far Rock and Rockaway Park branches.
The little used link between the two should be re-instated if only during the peek summer months. That would allow "beachcombers" to travel between both ends of the Rockaways without having the inconvenience of switching trains at Broad Channel.
Doug aka BMTman
Actually, Hammel's Wye has been used recently during GOs on the Rockaway branch.
I lived down that way about 10 years ago. Occassionally, if there was a problem on the C (which then ran to Rockaway Park) rush hour Far Rock trains would be diverted first to Rockaway Park and then reverse over Hammel's Wye to Far Rockaway. It probably happened about once a month.
I imagine that, with Rock Park service now being provided only by a shuttle, the need for such a move no longer exists.
I imagine that there aren't too many SubTalkers who have ridden Hammel's Wye in revenue service.
Chuck
Well here's your opportunity this weekend to ride Hammel's Wye!
According to the NYCTA Web site this weekend, there's a shuttle train running between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park (go to A Service to see it).
One of the few subjects I have posted here about is my one claim to fame - holding the record in 1967 for the fastest ride thru the whole subway system. One of the key elements in the schedule devised by the mastermind of the whole thing was making use of Hammel's Wye during the early morning hours, which was used then in revenue service. This saved one extra trip each way to the Rockaways, a big time saving.
I'm guessing from the previous post that it is no longer used during normal operations at any time. Is this the case?
Sorry for finding another excuse to bring up my record.
That's correct -- Hammel's Wye is no longer used in regular revenue
service. There are 24-hour A trains to Far Rockaway, shuttles from
Broad Channel to Rockaway Park, and six peak-direction rush-hour
59th Street to Rockaway Park trains.
But as noted in my original post, Hammel's Wye is used when
projects require General Orders (GOs). I recall a few instances
of this over the past year -- so with some planning you can ride it.
I imagine that there aren't too many SubTalkers who have ridden Hammel's Wye in revenue service.
I imagine that there's more of us out there who have than you might think. It's been less than 15 years since it was in regular service and it's constantly being used for G.O.'s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Weren't they using Hammels Wye today due to the G.O. between Rockaway Boulevard and Bch.90th Street/Holland?
Wayne
That's what someone else said ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd thought about those possibilities, but thought they might not apply for two reasons. First, I think the Round Robin only ran during the overnight. Second, when railfanning, when it's in use during a G.O., that usually means that there's a shuttle bus operation going on between the Rockaways and the "mainland". Any SubTalker worth their password should be horrified at the thought of being seen aboard a bus marked "Subway Shuttle"!!
Anyway, it might make for one of those interesting poll questions -- "Which stretches of infrequently used (or no longer in regular revenue service) track have you never ridden?". Possible stretches of track might include Hammel's Wye, the F express tracks under Hillside Avenue, the diverging F express tracks in Brooklyn, Chrystie street connection, the connection between the 8th avenue and 6th avenue locals below West 4th and the 63rd street to Broadway connection. I'm sure there are others.
Chuck
Had em all, but I don't think ever had the pleasure of the Chambers to
South side of the Manny B. Been along time since I road the Canal to South sid e of the Manny B. Almost as long as the defunct K , ^th ave to Willy B. I guess thats true of any who's had the experience.
avid
Well, I've ridden on the center track on the 1/9 between 96th and 137th. Not by choice, mind you -- I was trying to get to 103rd, but we diverted onto the center track supposedly to get by a stalled train at 103rd (although, unless it was one of those invisible trains, we didn't pass any trains, stalled or otherwise, anywhere along the run).
I've beenon the express tracks of the Liberty Ave El back when the R/30's were doing "C" local from Rock Park and were late. They'd run express thru Rocaway blvd and Boyd Ave, and reroute to local service at the Cross over just east of Hudson Ave. It happened more than once. So I guess it was a plan to catch up late service.
avid
If the South Ferry Shuttle counts, I've been on it many times when it ran.
If the South Ferry Shuttle counts, I've been on it many times when it ran. I've also been on the Hammel's Wye when the round Robin was running. Oh yeah, when we had subway track training with the police dept after the merge with the Transit Police our class rode on a train from the Jamaica Yard to Continental.
Way back in the 80"s I beleive when the tracks and ties on the local tracks were first replaced on the El portion of the Liberty Ave "A" line. Trains were routed to the Pitkin yard on the center track, the TO the walked to the rear end of the train and proceeded to Euclid Ave , skipping Grant Ave. Passengers were pissin and moanin , but I loved it .
avid.
I rode on the center tracks of the 1/9 north of Dyckman several times for the same reason back in the 1970's (of course, there was no 9 back then).
Would the Broadway express tracks and 57/7th to 63rdst connection count. Did that last weekend (not on the same train). Also every so often they run N and R trains up and down the express tracks when there are no GOs in effect. Happens in rush hours and non rush hours. Sometimes even if there was not a large gap in service. Morning rush several times it is the R to Whitehall St. I remember paralelling an N on the local from an R on the express just yesterday.
As for riding Subway Shuttles, it's a great way to get GO transfer receipts of different colors. I am also a busfan, and was once thrilled when I rode orion bus #108 on the Queens Blvd disruption from 71st to Roosevelt. (For those who don't know, it has cushioned reclining seats.) Also enjoyed double-stopping at 71st and wrong-railing on the express. Fun looking out the front window and seeing no signals. Even more fun when the emergency brakes were tripped on my train just outside of Roosevelt and we backed up trains at Continental. (Only one train could be between 71st and Roosevelt at a time). Best part was seeing the train behind me pull up next to me at 71st.
Sorry for the tangent.
Is there a station-by-station mileage chart for the SIR?
Not that I'm aware of. I can tell you the line is 14.7 miles long, the longest stretch is Clifton-Grasmere, the shortest Atlantic-Tottenville, but that's it.
-Hank
In answer to Doug,s question during the week about SIRT station-by-station milage. Here you are:
Station: Milage: Running Time (1960)
Saint George / 0.0 / 0:00
Tompkinsville / 0.5 / 2:00
Stapleton / 1.1 / 3:00
Clifton / 1.6 / 4:00
Grasmere / 3.1 / 8:00
Old Town Road / 3.6 / 10:00
Dongan Hills / 4.3 / 11:00
Jefferson Avenue / 4.8 / 12:00
Grant City / 5.3 / 14:00
New Dorp / 5.8 / 16:00
Oakwood Heights / 6.6 / 18:00
Bay Terrace / 7.4 / 20:00
Great Kills / 8.2 / 22:00
Eltingville / 9.1 / 24:00
Annadale / 9.9 / 26:00
Huguenot Park / 10.8 / 28:00
Princes Bay / 11.5 / 30:00
Pleasant Plains / 12.4 / 32:00
Richmond Valley / 13.1 / 34:00
Nassau / 13.6 / 35:00
Atlantic / 14.0 / 36:00
Tottenville / 14.3 / 38:00
Information from my "RIDE THE RAPID" timetable May 15,1960
Good Post,
Mr. Pirmann,
Please have this data stored in the appropriate place on this site.
Thank you,
This car had a "L" sign displayed. Saw it at Court St.
3Train#1977(finally saw the car of my birth year)Mike
I assume that most folks on this board want some of those transporation improvements actually built. There up there is Albany deciding how many studies they need to do to buy us off. The MTA capital plan in some way determines our future.
I guarantee you my "representative" knows how I feel. Most of the things under discussion are absolutely needed, but the ones being built are over in NJ. I suggest you send some e-mails. A little threat might help. Say you are considering running against the bozo on the Independence or Green Party line, and have lots of friends who are thinking about the same thing.
And, BTW, please fill out your census forms (not to set you know who off again). We need to get all 8.5 million New Yorkers (my estimate) counted. Last data City Planning received, only 33 percent of Brooklyn's forms had come back. Hell, we're under 40 percent in my own census tract. The deadline is Saturday.
[ Has Anyone Harrassed Their State Legislator? ]
Nah. He's not my type.
I DO ALL THE TIME, HE LIVES NEXT DOOR TO ME
(My state legislator lives next door to me)
Tell him no one will be fooled by another "study." We've paid for too many of those anyway. If they are unwilling to do anthing else, they should place a moratorium on studies, and use the money saved to start digging. In 50 years, we'll have the subway.
But he's talking about a Hawaiian legislator!
[Tell him no one will be fooled by another "study." We've paid for too many of those anyway. If they are unwilling to do anthing else, they should place a moratorium on studies, and use the money saved to start digging. In 50 years, we'll have the subway.]
Hell, if the MTA hired a lame Puerto Rican and gave him a shovel and instructions to start digging at 125th Street, we'd have the subway in 40. Don't mention that to the MTA, though, or they'll hire a consultant to study hiring a lame Puerto Rican, giving him a shovel, and instructing him to start digging at 125th Street.
Factoid of the Day: the MTA's $13.5 billion estimate for the cost of a Second Avenue Subway is 50% of what it would cost to send three four-man crews to Mars. OTOH, if the MTA were in charge of Mars flights, they'd be arguing about whether the propulsion system should be LNG or a diesel/electric hybrid.
(It's also worth noting that those Mars flights could be financed by using 20% of NASA's current budget for ten years, which leads one to wonder just what it is they're doing that's so damned interesting any fifth of it is more important than sending men to Mars. But then, this is government, and they have to build a space station so they can assemble a Mars craft out of smaller components because we can't launch bigger ones because the contractor threw away the blueprints of the Saturn V. Along with Werner von Braun's comic book collection, I imagine; bet you didn't know NASA contractors had mothers on staff.)
"Your Government, building two identical almost world's tallest buildings and bragging about it."
Larry, You make a very good suggestion. There are many here that express a lot of passion in their opinions, that passion should be directed where it MIGHT have some effect. I've been guilty of thinking about writing Dean Skelos, my State Sen. Since he has become a bit of a somebody up there I realy should actually write him.
BTW, I did mail in my Census ... maybe I'll draft a letter this weekend.
Mr t__:^)
Do write, call, ask them out for breakfast on Sat with you and 10 or 20 of your closest freinds. Elected officials need to hear from voters You need their interest and they need your vote.
Bottom line -- the have to fund the LIRR to GCT, and the top half of the Second Avenue, with cash while the economy is up. They could be built in the next recession, with the rest of the Second Avenue built later on.
Instead, they want to borrow while the economy is up, and then not even be able to keep the system up when the economy is down.
[Bottom line -- the have to fund the LIRR to GCT, and the top half of the Second Avenue, with cash while the economy is up. They could be built in the next recession, with the rest of the Second Avenue built later on.
Instead, they want to borrow while the economy is up, and then not even be able to keep the system up when the economy is down.]
Which means they'll cease construction again and we'll be paying interest on nothing. If they aren't going to fund these projects, they shouldn't build them. And yet, as I've so often pointed out, the entire Metrolink proposal could be funded over a ten year period for something like 3% of the municipal budget. We spend more putting band-aids on bums.
I didn't mail in my census form, and I never will
I filled it out online.
Congratulations!! You found the Best Kept Web Secret. The Census Dept. folks awoke from their 10 year sleep and nobody in charge knew about the Web. (The Census only fires up every 10 years, and 3 guesses what wasn't around in 1989-90.)
Oh, yeah, I filled out mine on the Web, too.
I like your stealth text.
We just threw ours in the mail. I think the envelope was prepaid, wasn't it?
BTW who here got a long form. Mine was not long at all
[I didn't mail in my census form, and I never will ]
I did!
DOB is the only info not publicly available from the White Pages about me.
Arti
i took a tour of grand central station last saturday given by adventurers on a shoe string--- although it was a general tour of the building, howard goldberg happen to mention that there was a railroad library in one of the offices in the building--- although i have been a subscriber and occasional member of the era for over 20 years, i have never been in the era library--- does it exist?--- what does it contain?---who uses it?--- who can use it?--- i ask this partly because i know there are people like doug and paul matus who frequently research transit topics, and i wonder if most people are aware of the library's existence.....
The ERA library is in the ERA offices, which are located on the
4th floor of "C" hall. At least I think that's where they are...
I've only been there once since they moved from the other side of
the complex. I have done some research there. It is available
to ERA members (i.e. National, I'm not sure about Subscriber-only
members of the NYD) by appointment.
The ERA library is not the only railroad library in Grand Central. The Railroad Enthusiasts (RRE) have the Williamson Library as well. Sorry, but I don't have their phone number.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
after seeing the new light rail being installed in Jersey City . and seeing it being done and ""geting it right ""
i entered into my search engine PASADENA BLUE LINE and came up with a most unusal anti transit
we site ............. http://www.noblag.org/ .............. and or just enter pasadena blue line and click on the B.L.A.G
anti Pasadena Blue Line site !!!... After careful review what they are saying is that below grade construction
of the pasadena blue line ( like the irt subway ) one street level down makes sense in pasadena, instead
of being at the same level the santa fe railroad once rode thru pasadena on !! ( like any railroad crossings etc )
i guess it makes sense having your rail systems underground with thier own right of ways not having to
stop traffic especially in the downtown areas of my hometown of pasadena !!! http://www.noblag.org/ ....
check out this anti rail transit website !! do you think they make a good point ?? I tend to agree !!
after you visit thier site and explore it what do you think ????
I did not sense that this group was anti rail transit in Pasadena, only that they want a grade-separated right of way. That makes some sense, though they tend to exaggerate the drawbacks of surface operation. The important point is - who is going to pay for it? Are the good citizens of Pasadena willing to pay for grade separation?
When BART was originally planned, it was going to be an elevated (or "aerial" in BART's terminology) through Berkeley. Berkeley was adamantly opposed to that idea, so the line was underground through that city. As I recall, Berekley had to share in the additional cost.
I agree with most of what you have posted !! ( however ) would you please Mr George Foleschow hit the
ANTI PASADENA BLUE LINE WEB SITE ......first......B.L.A.G. it is listed along with websites called , etc...
Pasadena Blue Line ( the construction of the blue line proposals site ) Then would you weigh this issue against
what B.L.A.G. is saying...... that they are not against light rail transit in Pasadena California, just how it is done !!!
all I am saying is could you check out thier anti site first ?? then i would like you to post your comments, thank you !!!
In fact, I did peruse the "noblag.org" web site before posting my earlier comment on that group and its position on light rail in Pasadena. I stand by my earlier statements.
YEA !! .....I want to meet with the B.L.A.G. people to hear out thier side of this story about building the
BLUE LINE light rail from the union station downtown los angeles to at railroad crossing grade in pasadena !!!
still I cant fighure out why the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE does not connect to this new proposed light
rail project and why you will have to GET OFF at the union station and transfer to the RED LINE
"""the subway to nowhere "" ......then ride it all the way to the 7 th street metro center then TRANSFER AGAIN
BACK on to the LONG BEACH BLUE LINE ...!!!! makes no sense to me !! and why did the mta do this ??
SO i see we have to mess up this project like we did the others !! THE MYTH OF PUBLIC TRANSIT IN LOS ANGELES #6
I do see thier point on the safety issue !!
Saalam keeps complaining about the Red Line to Nowhere. People in Hollywood, Westlake, East Hollywood, LACC and the Wilshire Area do not consider it nowhere. Maybe Pasadena is NoWhere
wrong !! it is the citizens of pasadena we want the PASADENA BLUE LINE to go somewhere !! not where it should not
go !!! ............. HOWEVER you are right about the RED LINE subway to nowhere !! ...eveybody knows that !!
I totally agree with you there !! ride it when you are in lost angeles and you will agree too !!! (peace)
wrong !! it is the citizens of pasadena we want the PASADENA BLUE LINE to go somewhere !! not where it should not
go !!! ............. HOWEVER you are right about the RED LINE subway to nowhere !! ...eveybody knows that !!
I totally agree with you there !! ride it when you are in lost angeles and you will agree too !!! (peace)