When I was younger (hell, even to this day!), I would make up whole fantasy worlds with fantasy continents and fantasy countries with fantasy cities, and above all, fantasy subways. I was never a good artists, so I would rarely make drawings and diagrams, but I still remember a good measure of it. So, who's up for a discussion of subways and transit systems that exist only as neural connections in each of our heads?
How about the Line running from Throgs Necks via Second Avenue, Water Street, Atlantic Avenue, Washington Avenue, Flatbush Avenue, Parkside Avenue and Ocean Parkway to Coney Island? And also continuing down Flatbush Avenue to Avenue U. After the Flatbush Avenue line was "built", it was extended over the Marine Parkway Bridge to Breezy Point and Far Rockaway. Just imagine the condition of that bridge after all the train runs across it!
No, I'm talking about a FULL FANTASY world. No New York.
I can't imagine a world without New York!
I like to see the R40 slants odd # married to R40M even # and vice a versa, I,d like to see an eleventh car R42's perhaps made singles , and added to line that could handle 660ft of passanger service. the original planners of the IND allowed for expansion but some of the platform space has been taken .This should present only a tiny problem
for the professionals intrusted to care for the rolling stock.
I want the #7 train rerouted to ditmas ave. and the "N" to main street
using a consist of nine married odd couple R40 slantlR40m's.
Intagrate the # 7 and the PATH from 34th ST and extend Ditmas "EL"
to La Gardia Airport. Extent Path to Newark Air Port.
Build a Hilex serving all terminals , Departures above, arrivales
below at both.
Put transit service over underutilized Hellgate bridge serving Conn.
Bronx, to both NY airports. The Amtrak /conrail line of the Hellgate is very very very close to LGA and the NY & A freight line criscross the LIRR at several locations .Lets not forget the Forgotten spur,
the Rockaway Branch that goes past the outskirts of JFK.....
How,s that for F A N T A S Y ????
you are full of yourself!
Not with REAL CITIES!!!!
Who is this Guy taking my handle 1-Brighton Express. I am gone only one week and I am being plagerized. When will it end
You don't OWN the Brighton Express, the only thing that identifies you uniquely is Bob. You can ask the other person to modify their name. You were first so you have priority.
I certainly would be... I too have always been preoccupied with cojuring up fantasy skyscrapers, bridges, subways and entire cities. In fact, I became so obsessed with it that I decided to pursue it as a career and become an architect.
"Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men's blood and probably themselves will not be realized. Make big plans; aim high in hope and work, remembering that a noble, logical diagram once recorded will never die, but long after we are gone will be a living thing, asserting itself with ever-growing insistency. Remember that our sons and grandsons are going to do things that would stagger us. Let your watchword be order and your beacon beauty."
-- Daniel H. Burnham, Chicago architect. (1864-1912)
-- David
Chicago, IL
So you got to be everything that George Costanza pretends to be, only for real!
02/01/2000
That's a tough one, you say no New York?.........Hmmm....The only Fantasy Subway I can think of is the Second Avenue subway which New York City has been fantasizing about since the 20's!
Hey!, you changed your handle again. Why do I get that feeling you used to be BMT Lines-NYC Transit?
Bill Newkirk
One handle Bill
No, how is it possible that BMT Lines and I had arguments if we were the same person?
Here is a history of my handles as far as I can remember them:
Jack Arthur (various modifiers used)
Eugenius D. Train
Eugenius D. Train - MVM Express
Eugenius V. Train - MVM Express
Eugenius D. Train (various modifiers, incl. Royal Island)
Defy Reason
Defy Reason and counting
From the banks of the River Stownz (one message only)
A post it note
I've been a bad post it note
I won't be a post-it note much longer
I'm not a post-it note anymore!
Humans: The Deli Best
Humans: The Bombay Best
Humans: The Calcutta Best (just joking!)
As for email:
onlyjoex@earthlink.net - Still Valid
mvmworld@crosswinds.net - No longer valid
Back to onlyjoex@earthlink.net
@metrocard.cjb.net - ID is whatever you want it to be (the subdomain is the important part), mail to here is forwarded to Earthlink address.
I used to draw detailed maps of imaginary cities in my downtime when I was working nights. I gave away some as gifts but I still have a couple of them.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Oh, please, not this again.
David
For the last few days, every time I log on to SubTalk I get the unsorted "chronological" listing, even though my preference has been for the "reverse threaded" listing. I set it back to that and it works for that session, but next time it is back to the chronological listing. Is this happening to anyone else, or is it just me? If it's me, what can I do about it?
I haven't had those problems and I don't even have a computer, I have WebTV. I originally had it set for only one day's postings for faster loading and that and my name and email always comes up whenever I go to SubTalk. Occasionally however I don't get the "new" next to new postings which I hate because I like to know where I left off last time. I think I only lost my cookies once or twice, I think when Dave changed servers and I've been coming to Subtalk for over a year.
I've had occasional problems with losing the SubTalk cookie too - it appears to happen whenever Anon_e_mouse Jr. visits another board that he occasionally posts on. I've gotten in the habit of closing Netscape when I leave the computer so the latest cookie is saved on disk, rather than just in memory, and that seems to reduce the problem (but not eliminate it - there's one website he visits that wipes out the last three or four most recent cookies, which invariably means SubTalk, no matter what I do).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are worse things than loosing your cookies once in a while. They are easy to get back though.
So, I just read that the 3200s from 1993! in Chicago aren't air conditioned. What BONEHEAD was responsible for this? Now THAT is someone who belongs in Bellevue. Which lines use these cars so if I ever visit Chicago, I'll know what to avoid?
The 3200s are VERY air-conditioned.
David
So why does chicago-l.org state that they aren't?
Good question, but Chicago-L.org is incorrect. I ride the 3200's almost every day, so I can assure you that they do in fact have air conditioning.
But if you still want to take the word of chicago-l.org over the people who actually use the CTA on a daily basis, that's your perogative. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Hey, I don't want to do that! I'm just surprised that a website like that has such a falsehood in it. What else on the site is wrong?
I could have SWORN I saw otherwise. Maybe the owner changed it before you visited it.
OOPS! I screwed up as I was backtracking.
This response was to message 91405 by David Harrison.
I could have SWORN I saw otherwise. Maybe the owner changed it before you visited it.
I think you're right. I'm 99% certain the site was changed sometime during the day today, because I followed your URL and read it for myself before I posted my response. IIRC, it said something about the 3200's being the "first cars in decades to be delivered without air conditioning." I could be wrong, but it's highly doubtful that both of us misread the website the first time around.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Shouldn't that be LONGACRE Square? The true original name.
Not sure where you read this, but your information is incorrect. All cars on the CTA system are air conditioned. (Now, whether or not the a/c actually works is another matter entirely, but the 3200's are usually the coolest of the fleet.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
[ Not sure where you read this, but your information is incorrect. All cars on the CTA system are air conditioned. (Now, whether or
not the a/c actually works is another matter entirely, but the 3200's are usually the coolest of the fleet.) ]
CTA busses, however, are a different story. There are a large number of CTA busses without A/C. Many were ordered that way in the 1980s to save $$. Some older ones which once had A/C no longer do (was never repaired when it broke).
All of the new busses the CTA is ordering now will be Air Conditioned.
-- Ed Sachs
Boston did something similar. All buses from 1966 to 1975 were air conditioned. Those delivered in 1976 had it but it was never used. Everything from then to 1988 came without it. The MBTA then retrofitted the 1988 buses with air and the 1994-1995 order came with it. It seems to run in cycles. Either we can't maintain it or we can't live without it.
The buses that had disabled air conditioning have been retired. Now, all buses that have a/c have it enabled.
What a bonehead move; CTA wanted to save money, so they DISABLE the a/c on the buses that came with it.
Anyway, currently the 1983 MAN artics have a/c, the 1991 metros and the 1995 new buses (forgot the model). However, most buses in Chicago still don't have a/c. One of the largest bus purchases ever, the 1991 TMCs, did not come with a/c.
For a time, Denver's RTD buses which were equipped with A/C had that feature disconnected, and new buses came without A/C. Swamp coolers were installed on those vehicles later. The entire bus fleet is now air conditioned, IIRC, as are the LRVs. Luckily, our climate is semiarid, with low humidity, so even on a hot summer day you don't break out in a sweat.
I just went to Chicago-L.org and it clearly states: "For the first time in decades, the new (sic) are equipped with both air conditioning and openable windows in case the AC doesn't work."
How did you misread that the 3200's don't have AC? When AC breaks down in a sealed window car--the car becomes an oven. Hopper windows can be opened for a little relief. The 2200 and 2600 cars got hopper windows during mid life rehab.
David Harrison
The problem is that often times, the operator won't know that a car on his train doesen't have A/C, so even though the car has no A/C and openable windows, they will remain locked. Since they're only hopper windows, why are they locked? Passengers should be allowed to open them in case of A/C failure.
So people won't open them when the A/C is on. It's a waste of energy to do so.
The bids like most things have a difference of price due to differrence of quality The highest bid of 2.2 billion dollars (two point two billion) consisted of among other things marble stations for an 8 mile subway This figure is still more than one billion lower than transit wants to pay for 3 miles of subway I somehow cannot help but think that transit doesnt plan on putting in marble stations since with only 3point five billions there wont be any money for such frills
I have never seen specifications for NYCT subway stations that call for marble, outside of a few station floors (such as Franklin Street, which was privately funded with a stipulation that the funds could ONLY be used for cosmetic improvements). Where can these specifications be viewed?
David
Dave they are not in any court case so I can not inform you where to go. I could mail them to you but I am using them as an ace up my sleeve. In december i contacted Carl Campinile from the new york post to offer him a deal. He would report on steinbach compensation case being fixed and i would mail him the documents. The last email I had from him was on december 31 over a month ago Some more evidence on media not interesting on reporting on transit corruption. Please feel free to confirm my comment His office number is 212 930 8638 Another thing you can discuss with him is I told him about a conducter with the Transits presidents credit cards. The police did not procecute since the conductor was LEGALLY in possecion of them. I gave him the precinct where it happened and other details to confirm my story. The next day was the article on people buying metrocards with stolen credit cards. I mailed him yesterday a letter on pataki stationary telling him a little bit about myself and enclosed some correspondence with senior management to further sustain my credibility so he would write a story on steinbachs compensation case. I seriously feel i gave a non taxdeductable donation to the post office.
Getting back to second avenue subway, the ta did not request marble stations and glass elevators. The bidders offered it. Like you goinng to buy a car and the salesman offering you a range from cadillic to compact. I just mentioned the bid because it was the most expensive of all 3 and still was over one billion dollars (american) cheaper.
Getting back to steinbach comp case i tried to get the pataki administration interested but i was told he was 30 years old and assuming he would live to 70 years that would cost 600,000 dollars. And all he did for the passengers and mta was unimportant.
Since the Second Avenue Subway (stubway?) isn't in design at this oint, the bids in question must have been from circa 1972.
As to the rest of it, I'll let others make the phone calls.
David
from within last 90 days When the actual engineering work that went into them occured i dont know. However even if they were from the 1970"s (and they are not) inflation over last 25 years is roughly 300 percent. 3x the highest bid of 2.2 billon for an 8 mile subway system is still a lot less than 13 billion that the mta is claiming it would cost.
I do not understand you Dave. In previous posts you tell me to present documents to prove my allegations are legitamite. I give you places to go to check out my allegations. You tell me that you dont want to impersonate Steinbach because you are afraid it is illegial. I then tell you how to reveiw the files without impersonating anyone at state supreme court. I even tell you how to confirm my statements without leaving your home (office) just by making a local phone call. You tell me however you are to lazy. In addition you now tell me that my bids are from 25 years ago. They are not.
HISTORICALY lines where built after the 'RIGHT " people owned the adjacent property, or the right vender would build the new line.
Witness the P.A. pouring a gadzillion tons of concret Which must be paid for , rather then resurrect the Rockaway Branch for a shorter
ride and a lot less Peso,s for ROW with many many possible connections
and routes.
LAST 90 DAYS. CHECK THE PREVIOUS MESSAGE THAT THIS MESSAGE IS BASED ON FOR MORE INFO ON HOW THE FIGURES IN ANY EVENT ARE ASTRONOMICAL
my evidence? Has anyone here even bothered calling Carl Campanile at the N Y Post 212 930 8638 ?
The engineering that was done in the 1970s for the Second Avenue Subway is obsolete. Standards have changed in the 25+ years since the Second Avenue Subway was an active project. Anything that was done then would have to be redone...and that hasn't happened yet.
The $17 billion MTA Capital Program Mr. Johnson referred to in a previous post isn't underway yet and may never be. It's being held up in Albany. One of the impediments is that a suburban legislator wants a program of similar scope for highways.
With respect to Mr. Johnson's comments about my "laziness," it's not my place to do an investigation of his charges. If anyone wants to undertake the project, go right ahead. I'd be interested in hearing the results. It might be difficult, as the incidents cited by Mr. Johnson allegedly happened between 6 and 15 years ago, and many of the principals allegedly involved no longer work for NYC Transit (such as Charles Monheim and David Gunn). I should also state that it's true that an NYCT representative COULD HAVE lied on a witness stand, it's also true that the defendants COULD HAVE lied as well.
If anyone wants to sort through this mess, by my guest. I'm not going to talk on this subject any more.
David
the engineering was NOT done in 1970's It was done very recently. I am not an engineer but i would be interested in how engineering standards have changed. In any event i doubt that engineering standards have doubled the costs over inflation. However all this is irelevent since the cost figuring was done in 1999 dollars
Dave, Carl Campinille is still at the N Y Post. Give him a call and ask him why he doesnt want to do a story on corruption at transit. If you need his number it is 212 930 8638
I made several statements which you challenged concerning criminial activity of transit management. You were within your right to ask me to put my money where my mouth is by showing you the evidence. I have done such. It is now within my right, to request from you to refrain in the future from casting aspirations on my charachter and knowledge of transit operations. If you dont even want to make a local phone call to confirm my statements after asking me, either believe me or stop challenging me. If you are afraid of your phone call being traced just go to a pay phone
Yesterday, Acela Regional service between Boston and NYC began with trains traveling around 110mph. They will not reach their intended 150mph+ until later this year when service extends down the NEC to Philadelphia and Washington, D.C.
Has anyone gotten a look at the trains in service. I can only imagine what South Station looks like with catenary hanging around.
Acela Regional trains will not be reaching 150. The current service is running with existing equipment, and is all electric, eliminating the engine change at New Haven for train traveling to Boston on the Shore line. Trains via Springfield and the inland route to Boston will still change power at New Haven. These are the existing Northeast Direct services and the Metroliners.
When the all-new equipment from Bombardier finally arrives and is in proper working condition, those trains will travel at up to 150mph, but will average around 90. These are the trains that will replace the current Metroliners.
-Hank
[These are the trains that will replace the current Metroliners. ]
What will happen to the Metroliners? Will they be used for service in the Empire Corridor?
They might. But New York State wants to use rebuilt Turboliners as the premium service between Albany and New York City. The Metroliner cars are probably going to be part of the Acela Regional service. I hope some of them get assigned to the Inland (Hartford/Springfield) Route. The Inland Route service really needs to be improved. Does anyone know what's in store for Hartford/Springfield service?
And I anticipate some will be assigned to the Main Line betw Philly & Harrisburg. Last months issue of Trains magazine has a 2-page article about the route's acquiring of AEM7 lcocmotives once Acela Express is up and running. "Busines Class" and food service is also planned. Kudos to PennDOT! This native Harrisburger / NYC transplant is very happy!
/*Does anyone know what's in store for Hartford/Springfield service?*/
The same shitty diesel service we've been getting for years. Along with the attendant power swap at NH, unless they import a few P-32s. Ack, those things can't get out of their own way.
I've also heard rumors of it being reduced to a shuttle run, OR being handed to Cdot, which would effectively mean it's getting killed, as Cdot hates mass transit (witness the non usefulness of hartford's bus system, the less than optimal condition of the NH line's wires, and the Shore line east's flakey service.)
Then again, northern CT hates mass transit too. Oh hell, this area hates economic development....
I seriously can't wait to get out of this dump - I'd rather live in Jersey than Hartford. And I'm a NY native!!!
Same old service. Here we have Amtrak celebrating improvements to its Northeast service yet they are doing little, if anything, to improve service to Hartford and Springfield. But I heard those rumors too.
An Amtrak conductor told me that the Inland service might be eliminated unless ConnDot were to take over the service (of course that would mean the end of service to Springfield unless Mass. were to operate that part of the line).
I read in Railpace Magazine's July 1999 issue that some trains will become shuttles between New Haven and Springfield while others will continue on to D.C. But no change in the number of trains on the Inland Route. And I think Amtrak is going to continue to use the ugly, noisy F40s for motive power.
It's inexcusable that Amtrak has given the Inland Route stepchild status. They are throwing away a line that has potential for success. Look at the Empire service between Albany and New York and the Keystone serivce between Harrisburg and New York. Why wouldn't it work between Hartford and New York? So what if the RDCs and SPVs that ran the Inland Route didn't work fifteen years ago? They could use Flexliner DMUs which operate successfully in five countries and did very well when Amtrak ran them across the U.S.
It's the service that needs improvement. The people who run ConnDot just don't get it that there's too much traffic on I-91. It's eight lanes wide at some points. What are they going to do when Inland service is gone? Widen 91? Good luck! Towns, cities and other organizations will be fighting that in court for years just like they're still doing with proposed Route 6 upgrades through Bolton and Coventry. If ConnDot thinks widening 91 is not going to be a problem, they've got no idea what they're going to face.
Amtrak and ConnDot need to wake up and smell the coffee! Improving service on the Inland Route is the only way it's going to get better. They need to bring back the second track, take away many (if not all) of the railroad crossings, install high platforms at the stations, increase the service, and make it more convenient, faster and comfortable. They should use combinations of Flexliner DMUs and EMUs on trains going south of New Haven. Only then will the service become more popular.
That same conductor who told me that Amtrak may end the Inland service also told me that it could be popular again. Well this is one way to do it. If Amtrak and ConnDot continue to ignore this line, they will continue to shoot themselves in the foot.
Well there is nothing special about the Metroliners except maybe that the cars have more leg room. Metroliners use standard Amfleet coaches and they are Pulled by AEM-7's. When the ACELA trainsets replace AEM's from Metroliner work some of the AEM's will go to Keystone service and the rest will be distributed around the system. Amtrak also hopes to get rid of the E60's, which are used or heavy hauling and that's what the new HHP-8 locomotives are for. So with all the extra AEM's I can see Amtrak adding NEC trains or selling some AEM's to the likes of NJT, SEPTA, MARC or even CDOT and MTBA. I would love to see an AEM in New Haven colours.
Acela Regional service. Some already have the black and white regional signs near the doors.
I heard about it. Was it in revenue service?
I heard it was 10 or 20 minutes late due to problems.
We're talking about ACELA Regional here, which is NOT the forthcoming ACELA Express "tilt train." The first departure on Monday morning ran about 20 minutes late due to mechanical problems prior to departure. While waiting at Mansfield for the 7:11am inbound to Boston on Monday morning, I witnessed this train southbound at that location at 7:09am (Mansfield is about 2/3 of the way from Boston to Providence).
I also understand that the VIP special train, which left Boston at 9:30am on Monday, was late. But this was due to long-winded speeches!
Amtrak would have made points with the public if the train departed on time - without the VIPs!
The Times indicated that some of the tardiness was due to an "engine problem before the initial departure (15 minutes or so), and that there were scheduled stops for speech-making and back-patting along the route, extending the overall "delay."
So that train used AEM-7's, not the HHP-8s?
When do they begin service, when Acela Express begins in the spring?
You want to see documents fine
Car 3534 had problems in june and july 1989 with car doors opening repeatedly involving door operater number 2 There was a passenger incident involving Evelyn George with a G2 to investigation and discipline which mentioned further the incident
You want to see the report involving Charles monheim cancelling all subway inspections? go to the state supreme court building at 360 adams stret by transit headquarters go to the file room where all records are kept and check out the ledger book for steinbach who filed a case april 6 1992 against ny transit take down the file number and then go to the records room and read the file Judge Yoswein who handled the case by the way was a former transit lawyer and dismissed the case as a favor to transit
Want to see transit testimony that commendations are really violations? Go to workers comp building and make pretend to be steinbach wanting to photocopy his file for an appeal Ask to see his file from 1994 case where you will see transit submitting all his commendations as if they were violations
Do you want to see documents that transit is falsifying medical records to steal pensions and force employees out on the street? Check out the greivence number 345 where documents are entered proving this including the Monheim document mentioned earlier This greivence caused Kiley resignation from the mta board. I also have documents that kiley approved the sabotage of doors opening between stations but that is not in the greivence This greivence by the way has never been heard
Have fun Steve and anyone else who wants to read them Bring plenty of money to make copies but dont expect a single media agency to pay any attention or govt agency either
I already knew about the incident with 3534. It involved a car that inspectors inspected 6 times after overhaul by MK and never performed a critical safety test. The incident you refer to occurred at Smith-9th St (right?) The supervisor was disciplined and ultimately retired. The charges against the hourly employee were dismissed because several people who should have been held responsible - were not. Only the last person to inspect the car was held accountable. As for your contention that the media ignores these incidents, you are wrong. This particular incident received a lot of press due to it's nature. As long as you have seen the reports, why don't you explain what happened.
the franklin shuttle The train was fixed after Steinbach reported it to dave Gunn (then ta president) in the summer of 1989. As far as explaining what happened I already did. If trains dont break down there is no need to buy new trains. I have inspected the car since and it has worked fine at least in regards to door number 2. However before conducter steinbach reported it was sent back from the yards every few days with the same problem in same door number. Luckily for the passengers no one got killed. After he reported it mean distance between breakdowns shot up. In science it is important to find a control and I therefore refer you to the 6 months before Steinbach complained MDBF were very stable. And if you want to say it was because new subway cars arrived this was at the end of the new cars arriving. I have never seen an article on any train having indication with the doors open, however i have seen several articles on doors opening between stations. I have also seen a letter from Robert Kiley (former mta board of directors)saying fixing subway doors that fly open between stations is grounds for termination. I can tell you where to find a copy of his letter but first I want to see you find any of the letters i mentioned earlier about Steinbach or greivence 345 or Charles monheim or that compensation case
I also knew that it was the wrong door incident that I mentioned. Car #3534 was assigned to Coney Island in 1989. I was referring to a Jamaica Shop incident to see if your info was correct.
I disagree with your conclusions about MDBF as one car out of over 700 does not tip the scales significantly. However, I did check the history of that car for 1989 and found some of your facts are correct.
Now I'd like to know what your point is other than your incorrect conclusions about car repairs and MDBF. Feel free to E-mail me privately.
What do you mean SOME? I went back to my post and checked what i wrote. I find no facts that were wrong. I again state management is knowingly and willfully killing the passengers to obtain govt assistance. I have in previous posts mentioned were to find documents proving my statements. If you dont want to impersonate steinbach at workers comp go to 360 adams street and read his article 78 proceeding filed april 6 1992
When i mentioned mdbf figures i was not talking about car 3534 I was talking about the entire fleet A and B division. By 1989 most cars had already been delivered or rebuilt. for 6 months before steinbach mileage between breakdowns had not changed markedly After he wrote the accident report on evelyn george however the mdbf figures shot up. All except for one month when monheims bulletin was in effect. The bulletin was nullified when sept 12 1990 greivence 345 was filed charging management with falsifying the medical conditions of its employees. This caused such a stink that Kiley was forced to quit. However this grievence never went to arbitration. Do not bother to call the mta ig about it. All they investigate is employees. Management is immune to their investigations since they are members of the same political club. When i was with Pataki i told him that they dont even save enough money to pay their rent. His response was to move them into 10 columbus circle wich the mta owns so they wouldnt have to pay rent.
i am out of new york now several years so i lost contact if he is not who is?
Yes he still is.
the FBI was interested in a sabotage train wreck planned for friday rush hour. it is interesting that instead there was a dragging caused by indication problems at of all places union square. what makes this interesting is that there has not been any major incidents recently and in one shot a major accident happens involving my posts about door problems and union square where major corruption happened. It is at the least a nice coincidence and at most a planned act of sabotage. I am going away tommorrow for the next 3 weeks for army duty but if anyone wants to continue this further please email me
Months ago, I announced that I was keeping a history
of the different handles that people have used as
posters on SubTalk. It was to include the date of
first use and discontinuance, special interests,
things to avoid in referring to these people ( in my
case it was Niagara Falls and the Susquehanna Hat
Company ) and a measure of the person's notoriety
and general level of hostility coming from and
directed toward the person.
However, recent transmogrifications ( I never used
this word before ) by one particular poster, who as
of yesterday was posting as the Bombay Pest, have
exceeded my poor power to continue in this project.
Honestly, I never started the project, so do not
e-mail me with requests for the most recent list. I
am just using this as a pretense to flame my young
friend...
If you really wanted to flame your friend just type in all caps or address one poster directly.
And mention that your favorite car is the R-33 single.
The way Willy's favorite system is Atlanta?
Not to mention the railfan window.
Seriously, heypaul's posts are more amusing than annoying, IMHO, and non-inflammatory. As long as we're on the subject, I started out as Steve B and added the 8AVEXP part last summer, on the 34th anniversary of my first subway ride.
heypaul, I am very disappointed in your dropping this much anticipated project.
In fact I was planning to change my handle to "Danger Mouse" or "Captain Scarlet", but now I fell there is no need since the "History of SubTalk Handles Project" is defunct.
:-(
Sadly yours,
Doug aka BMTman (as always)
I have chosen to restart the project. You must either mention the name change, or it must be obvious. If I am unable to tell that two handles are the same person, I will order your excommunication.
I will start now.
I have changed my name to reflect what is believed to be the common view of me at the present state of time.
Well, I'm not the type to make such observations, but
NOW THAT YOU MENTION IT... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was hopping that you'ld become the SubDude again !
Mr (small) t
Oh Thurston, you gave it away, I posted to Doug about his idenity change without giving the name.... LoL!!
What is this AS ALWAYS Bull Crap Mr. BMT Man or are we forgeting a little handle change you went through a month or so ago???
Old age my friend....
Lou From Brooklyn
Who grew up as Lou from Staten Island (HS Age)
Who was in k-12 as Lou From Commack, LI
Who was PreK as Lou From Queens
Hey, Lou! The handle 'Subdude' was a mere fignewton of your imagination!
He never existed (in this space/time continuium at least!)
:-)
Doug aka BMTman (FOREVER!!!!)
Too bad those kids had to learn the hard way that riding atop subway cars is not kosher.
When I was in high school some friends joined me in what we called "subway surfing" which was merely betting who could ride the longest without holding onto the poles or straphangers.
Did anybody do something similar in their youth?
Doug aka BMTman
I elevator surfed, rode on top of elevators and jumped from one car to another. Stupid Youth that I was.
In high school, my friend loved to tell the story of some kid who was elevator surfing in Far Rockaway and was crushed when the thing went up to the top floor. His favorite part was saying they put some of the remains in a Waldbaum's grocery bag.
Teenagers, whaddya gonna do with `em?
Sad to say these two kids weren't too bright. At least one kid's mother knew he was a grafitti vandal, and of course she couldn't stop him from doing that. It's the same old story, everyone will be held at fault for this except the kids and their tragically disinterested parents. The photo of one of the kids in the NY Post was of him in a subway car. I'd like to meet the parent that would give a newspaper a photo like that of their dead son. The level of stupidity in this city is simply amazing.
Sounds like the parents will be suing the TA. If the parents of the ten year olds who were out at 3 a.m. and crawled over three fences to get into the bear exhibit at the Prospect Park Zoo can sue, so can they.
La Machine.
-Hank :)
Appearently elevators are popular playthings, a friend of mine is an elevator repairman,he told me recently that at this time of year his company gets several calls to repair damage to elevator cars due to burning Christmas trees placed in them.He told me of such an incident in CO-OP city several years ago where the heat was so intense that it severed the hoist cables,the car plummeted some 30 stories.
A few years ago it was popular practice in public housing projects to break the hallway door windows and stick your head or some other inaminate object into the shaftway.Atleast one "youth" was de-capitated and as a result we all now must have gates on all elevator hall and car windows,these make it impossible to see what floor you`re on `till the doors open completely. Another case of expense and inconvience due to idiots.
Stupid Stupid, They deserved to die, and somebody should present them with Darwin Awards. At least they are out of the gene pool. and While we're at it, someone should neuter there parents.
hey thats a little harsh their parents are not to be blamed. for their childs stupidity. lets have a heart and not bash someone that cannot protect themselves. and lets get back to some real sub-talk.
I heard today in my school that 1 of the kids used to be in my school. He was at my school 2 years ago. One of the teachers who had him told me that he was a nice kid. He was in a Special Ed. class. He loved tagging trains. Until that night when he and a buddy decided that tagging wasn't enough. He went surfing.
Whoa!!!!! I think most regulars know that I'm no bleeding heart when it comes to subway miscreants. However since I am likely one of the few people here who has seen the results of Subway Surfing first hand, I think I can comment from a unique perspective.
My first 12-9 as an RCI was in 1982. It was 15 or 16 year old who was riding atop of a #1 train on the elevated structure. When the train went into the tunnel, this particular young man continued to ride until the train passed under one of the passageways over the tracks (I believe it was 191 St). Unfortunately, the young man was crushed to death betwee the car roof and the underside of the bridge. I saw the body on the roof and whenit was lowered to the platform and 'bagged'. If you saw it, I don't think you'd say he deserved to die. No one deserves to die like that. No parent deserves the punishment of having to identify the pulverized body of one of their children. If stupid kids don't deserve compassion - the parents do.
R36-33s Fan-
You are one sick individual!!!
Well I grew up in Rural upstate and we used to do bus surfing which was the same idea. Ride as long as you can, anticpate the curves, don't touch the seats. You had to do it on a dark night when it was impossible to see the curves coming to be considered really good at it.
What's truly sad is that the same question keeps arising: To What Degree Is The Public Sector Responsible For Protecting People From Their Own Stupidity??
More and more, the answer is: Completely And At All Costs.
I know that when I was in high school, about 5 years ago I used to see kids joyride on back of RTS buses. They would stand on the bumper and hold on to the A/C grill. I don't see this anymore. The orions seems harder to do and with huge gaps in the A/C grill, I think that kids get the idea. The bumpers are slanted and maybe some of them fell. Anyway people do a lot of stupid things and transit is usually held responsible.
I sought out Slant R40s to ride between the "A" ends, and I sought out empty cars so I could do back flips with the handholds. R12, R14 and R15 were particulary suited for this exercise, with their little square handholds mounted on a bar. I could put my feet up on the bar making it easier to do the flip. One time I actually got up ON TOP of the bar and rode there for a bit. My Dad was beside himself and had to help me get down. This was #5915 high up on the #5 line back in 1969. Last backflip I did was on May 11, 1991, aboard R40 "B" train #4378. I had quite a few beers in me at the time.
Wayne
[I had quite a few beers in me at the time.]
Hey, Wayne! Don't you know it's not healthy to drink 'n ride! :-)
Doug aka BMTman
"In their youth?"
I'm teaching it to my kids!
--Mark
It's actually a very important skill. You could be in a crowded car with no place to hold on to, or no place convenient, what do you do?
ever jumped up when an elevator is racing down ?? MAN WHAT A LANDING !!!
( now remember folks dont try this at home ) .................
02/05/2000
Does the kidneys wonders !
Bill Newkirk
There is an article concerning the status of Acela Express in the
Washington Post today. You can read it here.
Unfortunately, due to the current testing schedule, Acela Express may
now be delayed until this summer. Bad break for Amtrak!
Chaohwa
I commented a few days ago about the fact that the latest printed official subway maps show the J-train's 75th St (formerly Elderts La.) station on the Brooklyn side of the Brooklyn-Queens border, while previous versions of the map showed it on the Queens side. Either is defensible, really, since parts of the station are in each borough.
But, here is something that is totally inexplicable: the official online map (http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/maps/submap.htm) shows the Brooklyn-Queens border in the wrong place!!
The first thing I noticed about the online map was, not the border, but the fact that the graphics are reminicent of the graphics which were used on the subway maps immediately before the most recent revision. Then, however, I saw the big mistake.
As depicted, the border starts out OK at Newtown Creek, and then proceeds in a sort-of southeasterly direction. So far, so good.
But, whereas in reality the border turns sharply east just north of Jamaica Ave. (only to turn south again at the Dexter Ct./Eldert La. area), this map shows the border continuing on its southeasterly trajectory.
So, according to this map, the whole issue of whether the Eldert La. station is in Brooklyn or Queens is settled -- it is in Queens, and so are Cypruss Hills, Crescent St., Norwood Ave., and Cleveland St.!
This spurious border, which seems to roughly approximate the location of Schenck Ave., hits the A/C-train between Van Siclen Ave. and Shepherd Ave., placing Shepherd, along with Euclid Ave. and Grant Ave. in Queens. The border then hits the south coast of Brooklyn just east of Canarsie's Fresh Creek Basin.
Upon closer inspection, this map has a few other mistakes. For one, it shows the E-train bypassing the old Van Wyck Blvd stop (a stop which is missing its new "Briarwood" label, by the way), and hitting only the Jamaica-Van Wyck stop. In reality, however, the E hits both Van Wyck stops.
Also, B/Q service is shown to stop at 57th/6th, with the a shuttle to Queensbridge starting from 57th/7th and shown in yellow.
Strangely enough, the new northern terminals of the B and C are shown correctly, with the B going to the Bronx. However, didn't the changes on the E (regarding the Van Wyck stops) and the B/Q (restoring service to Queensbridge and obviating the shuttle) occur before the B/C terminal switch?
I am amazed to find such a map on the official site! Why don't they just put up a scan of the printed map, which does not have any of these ridiculous errors?
Ferdinand Cesarano
The E train skips the Van Wyck Briarwood (Blvd) stop Monday's thru Fridays from 6:00 A.M. until 7:30 P.M. It stops there at other times. For practical purposes, since most people ride at the above times, showing it skipping Van Wyck Briarwood is appropriate.
I just spoke with the MTA's webmaster, and she was aghast to learn of the errors on this map. She said that a new map would be put on the website shortly which will correct the errors of the one that is there now.
And, as it turns out, showing the E skipping the Briarwood-Van Wyck stop was indeed a mistake. The new map will show both the E and F stopping there.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Really? I've been wondering for months why they hadn't updated the subway map, and just assumed they didn't care about keeping it up to date. (After all, how long did it take to get any kind of schedules back on the site ... ) Is there an address on the MTA website for comments about things like this? I remember trying to look for one, without success, but that was a while ago.
No, the B/C terminal switch occured well before the shuttle on 63rd Street was created. So the whole time that shuttle ran, the B ran to the Bronx.
Does anyone know if the R-142 will be having test runs this weekend, and if so the time and locations.
Does anyone know if the R-142 will be having test runs this weekend, and if so the time and locations.
Maybe I can find out for u blazer. I'll keep u posted.
Does anyone know if the R-142 will be having test runs this weekend, and if so the time and locations.
not to sure. family member of mine who works for the MTA said that they are stored up in the 180th train yard at the moment. they probably are going to test it out, just don't know when. I hope soon so I can get a sneak preview ride!
02/02/2000
Being off from work today (Tues. Feb.1) I decided to chance the Dyre Ave line to see if they were being tested. Riding a northbound #5 entering Gun Hill Rd station I indeed saw the R-110A like front of the R-142 in the distance.
The cars S-7216,7217,7218,7219,7220-N were on the test track with numerous employees with track vests. This is the first time I saw them in person, and the cars do look impressive. I was busy taking photos, but did notice one thing. On the front LED route sign, it happened to be showing red. The sign was going through a test mode showing a red color. The numbers were 0-9-S, the first sequence was numbers only, second was numbers in a circle and third was numbers in a diamond. The side signs were also going through a test mode only showing routes #2 & #4.
Bear in mind that this was a gamble that paid off. If anybody goes there 11:30 tomorrow and the train isn't there, it could be in the shops going through adjustments. I didn't speak to the personnel on board, so I can't tell you if they test on the weekends. We'll leave it up to this message board and somebody who knows something will post it.
BTW - I also photographed Redbirds in comparison with the R-142's. One thing I noticed even though there is welded rail there, the Redbirds actually sounded "heavy" in motion while the R-142's sounded very light when moving. The AC traction propulsion does sound strange.
Bill Newkirk
The Bombardier R142 is doing night testing and headed south on Track M on the 2/5 lines at 11:30PM. A locomotive (#69) followed the test train for a second time since the set came out last week. What is the puprose of this? To make sure the train doesn't drop dead at some location? The set returned north on Track M at Jackson Av and was turned south to head to some unknown location. I saw the set from my window and made 2 observations about them. The cars have very bright interiors, when compared to previous generations. What about sounds? They're unusual. I expected the cars to sound like its R110A predesessor, but instead it sounds more like the R110B. The cars appear to be silent in their movement.
That's all for now, more R142 adventures to come!
-Stef
P.S. Does The Source know if the Kawasaki Cars are going to do overnight testing?
02/02/2000
One thing I forgot to mention, these cars of course don not have H2 couplers, and an adapter would be needed for emergency movements.
The #7200's are the Bombardiers' ? I get them mixed up.
Bill Newkirk
No sir. Actually, 7211-7220 are the Japanese fleet, while 6301-6310 are the Canadian fleet. 6301-05 were on the road over night. One of the places it visited, was the Jerome Av line as I found out in a radio transmission.
As for the cars without H2 heads, this is to be expected. As Steve explained to me, WABCO stopped producing that coupler, and the TA had to select something else - a coupler similar to that in the R44, R46, and R110B. With this new coupler, the R142s now become incompatible with everything else.
-Stef
They'd be incompatible to begin with. Too many electrical differences, not to mention the AC motors.
And since the TA has freight couplers on the majority of its work equipment, an adapter would be needed no matter what 69 would be pulling, unless it were work cars.
-Hank
I let you guys know if RTO/CED will run the R-142's this weekend.
02/03/2000
Doesn't the R-142/A represent the first new IRT subway car since the 1938 World's Fair cars that don't have pantograph safety gates on the fronts? Interborough Rapid Transit, welcome to the world of the Bologna springs !!
Bill Newkirk
Don't know about this weekend, but they ran tonight...on the Brighton Line! I saw them enter Prospect Park northbound (from the RAILFAN WINDOW of a southbound Q) around 9:40 PM.
David
The AC traction
propulsion does sound strange.
Does it sound "21st Century Like", similar to the 01800 red line cars in Boston? -Nick
The Coupler used on the R-142's is manufactured by WABCo. This coupler portion was originally designed by Ohio Brass which was taking over by WABCo in the early 1990's. This stlye of this coupler is used on the R-44, R46, R-110B contracts and could be found on the MBTA, Metro-Dade, MTA Baltimore, LAMTA, SEPTA systems. The R-110A's have a WABCo N-2 coupler, like the ones used on the LIRR and Metro-North RR's. WABCo no longer offers the H-2-C coupler in their product line. Parts for the H-2-C are still obtained thru WABCo.
I'll bet there must be a humungous surplus of H-2-C couplers with all the linking into 4- and 5-car sets of R-68s and R-62s, respectively, which has taken place. Not to mention controllers.
the Redbirds actually sounded "heavy" in motion while the R-142's sounded very light when moving.
Wonder if the trucks are using those steel wheels that I once saw at CI shop that are supposed to be much quieter? I forget their name, but something about having somekind of insulating material in them??
--Mark
They're called ring-damped wheels, and I believe they are standard now.
David
While in schoolcar yesterday my instructors were given their copies of the training manual for the 142's and it is about the size of the Bronx phone book. ( both white and yellow pages )
check out those sources i mentioned? you will be especially intersted in the greivence 345 which contains Charles Monheim authorisation to discontinue inspections
From your posts you appear to have b division credentials in car maintenence
Your assumption is correct.
I also knew RCI Herschowitz when he worked out in Rock Park in the early 80s.
STEVE GIVE HIM MY REGARTDS NEXT TIME YOU SEE HIM
What does the TTC use to keep the rail free of ice and snow including the third rail? Same for the CTA.
The TTC uses de-icer on the rails. Last January during a massive snow storm the TTC took on other measures such as running trains over open cuts at rush hour intervals 24 hours a day just to keep things moving and not stopping at two open cut stations to ensure that the trains would make it through.
These measures were not enough to beat the storm and the subway had to be replaced by buses where there were open cuts for three days.
The Scarborough Rapid Transit system, has a more sensitive contact with the fourth rail (the Ontario government designed it - don't ask) and was shut down for five days. The the elevated part of the line is in a cement trough that collects the snow!
If you want to know more - check out this report from the TTC website about deicers for the SRT
regards from Toronto
http://www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-comrpt/documents/report/f760/_conv.htm
what ever happened to the other train manufacturers? how come they couldn't be picked to build the R 142's and many more to come? what happen to Budd, St. Louis Car, Pullman Standard? wouldn't it be cheaper to build new subway cars for the MTA than to do it with the imports?
Again cheaper is not what transit is all about. Stealing is what it is all about. check my previous comments. I have a bid of 2point 2 billion dollars for a subway 8 miles long with glass elevators and marble stations 8 miles long Transit wants 3 point 5 billion dollars to build a 3 mile long subway with the rest costing another 9 billion dollars I also have the bargain bids for less money with out marble stations and glass eelevators
You don't need marble stations - plain IND style tile will do. Perhaps a BMT style in a station or two. Also marble tile on the platform floors, but nothing beyond that is necessary. Keep the design simple and utilitarian, and you will keep the overall cost down.
Wayne
Hey! We've had to suffer with utilitarian station design for decades now. It's time for it to end.
Two words:
Art Deco
Do you want a simple station that is easy to keep at least looking clean, or a fancy design that can't be kept clean in any way shape or form?
There's no reason why something beautiful can't be functional as well -- look at the main concourse of Grand Central Terminal or the subways of Moscow. As long as the maintenance of these facilities is performed and they're not allowed to rot, in the longrun they don't cost more to maintain. People also seem to respect the nicer facilities moreso than the utilitarian and decrepit ones.
I think the debate over whether or not subway stations should be clad in expensive marble is missing a much larger issue.
Architecturally speaking, any mediocre architect can slap $1000 marble all over a bad design and call it good architecture, but it takes real talent to create a work of beauty out of mere concrete and granite.
And that's exactly what Chicago-based Harry Weese Associates mananged to do with the Washington Metro, particularly the underground stations. Far from being examples of architectural grandstanding, the factors that had the greatest influence in the success of the design were almost purely functional in nature.
Here are the design principles of the Washington Metro, as published in the December 1995 issue of Progressive Architecture:
Underground stations:
Concrete structural vault provides unified surface.
Vault surface always out of reach of users.
All lighting bounced upward off of vault; no light sources visible.
Nothing suspended from vaults.
Forced air enters the station through coffers of vaults and is exhausted through grilles at track level, thus eliminating the heat and odors of braking steel wheels at their source.
High-efficiency acoustic absorbers in coffers of vault.
All signage on pylons arising from platforms. (Horitonzal signs added later for legibility from inside trains.)
Users touch only very durable materials: Concrete, granite, bronze.
Entry to station via mezzanine with view of entire station, for security and wayfinding purposes.
Mezzanine plan tailored to circulation diagrams; no dead corners.
Mezzanine located at minimum height above platform.
All destinations within stations are clearly visible; orientation is self-evident.
Minimum number of structural columns, round for minumum obstruction.
Above-ground stations:
Platforms identical to underground.
Continuous skylight strips.
Minimum number of columns, located away from platform edges.
In following the above guidelines, Harry Weese managed to create a very monumental yet very functional station design. The design has been so successful, in fact, that Weese's firm has been retained to design all the new stations in the system to this day. (Sadly, Harry Weese himself died fairly recently.)
The moral of the story: Good design is still good design regardless of whether or not it is covered in expensive materials and fancy ornamentation, and bad design is still bad design regardless of whether or not it is covered in expensive materials and fancy ornamentation.
-- David
Chicago, IL
With the differnt mindset in New York -- the ingraned 95-year tradition by some of not respecting anything underground, I would think using the concrete vault design in New York City for, say the Second Ave. stations, would mandate the MTA contract with a full-time crew of sandblasters, because unless all the stations were island platforms, they would present too tempting a target for our army of spraypainters.
Okay now this one I can comment on with some authority - woohoo! Some of you should see the light rail system in Portland, Oregon. They do a wonderful job with Concrete - while most stations are just simple street-level platforms, a couple are worth noting:
The Underground station for the Zoo (the deepest in North America and the second deepest in the world), is very beautiful and is mostly surfaced with marble and decorate ornamentation. It's very pretty. HOWEVER, the station west of it at "Sunset Transit Center" is built only of concrete and in my humble opnion is four times as cool as the one at the zoo. The Sunset station is built into an open-topped recessed area with two side platforms. At either end the train enters and leaves a subway section, but the station itself is daylighted. It is surrounded by metal rails with cross supports bending like reeds blowing in the wind. But the station itself is straight concrete and when standing in it all you can see is the sky framed by the reed railings. It is very cool. To add to that, the bus area is built in a semicricle with the station recession at the center - concrete sidewalks radiate out to each of the bus stops from the station, and natural field grass is planted between them. It is probably one of the most beautiful transit centers I've seen, and all with concrete, railings, and some field grass. I have some pics I will try to post sometime soon
GOODNIGHT TO ALL IN NYC,
Abe a.k.a. AbeyBaby
AND if you have the Federal tax tit available,... The DC Metro is a prime example of monumentalist architecture. I suppose its okay for an 'imperial' capital, but the money could have been better spent. The flashing lights are cute but hokey. The signage on the cars conversely is nearly illegible. The finest design still is the as delivered slant 40 with the giant lettering. Also the insistance on overly deep bores and zillions of feet of escalators is ludicrous. Yes once you have put the tunnel too far down you need motor assist SO THINK. While imperfect, the IND in general is a good compromise. BART, DC Metro, and the rest of the 'new systems' have fallen prey to the (irony) Stalinist (as in Moscow) museum /temple style. What we need is a sufficiently clean design and very frequent trains! The station should be something you rarely spend time in. All that said, Weese & Co do deserve credit for the air handling and noise damping. , but I will take noisy and even dirty in trade for ALL NIGHT and FLAT FARE.
Don't be dissin' on BART, most BART stations are very utilitarian in nature and aren't ornately decorated at all. The downtown stations aren't very far underground either - they are only as far as they need to be because of the fact that the BART tracks in downtown SF are one level below the MUNI METRO light rail tracks. BART stations, compared to other heavy rail systems, are very inexpensively designed. I don't think Moscow (which is relatively flat but has the deepest subway station in the world) is anything like BART. Having never ridden the DC METRO I can't speak on that system, but BART is very efficiently designed. And there is only about a 2 1/2 hour break in the service each night, otherwise it runs. Besides, the NYC subway lines only run every hour at night anyway, right? There's no excuse for crappy service but BART service is good and very functional. So don't be dissin' on BART, okay? I might add that BART trains can go 80 mph and make the 36 mile trip out to Dublin-Pleasanton in only 40 minutes - I'd like to see even the 7-express hit those kind of speeds!
Does anyone know what type of construction is being used for the 2nd Avenue "Stubway?" Hopefully the MTA can look to BART as an example on how to design stations. But they should also consider the use of the flashing lights on DC Metro platforms (I actually didn't know those lights flashed until I saw the DC Metro on a Discovery Channel program about subways).
What is the "Stubway"? Is that a truncated version of the old second avenue subway plans? If they did build it the BART underground stations should not be used as a model - the downtown stations are cool but the Oakland underground stations rival Chambers St. they are so ugly
It is. It will only operate from 125th Street to the 63rd Street Connection. No service to the Bronx is planned (this is the MTA we're talking about). Then it will run down the Broadway Express tracks. I've only seen BART's downtown San Francisco stations. Why wouldn't they work for 2nd Avenue?
The downtown San Fran stations are very well designed and would work great on second avenue. It's the rest of the BART underground stations, especially those in Oakland, which are ugly. Although I must admit that the Berkeley central station is kinda cool.
Well, right now the only thing happening is a plan to come up with a plan, so don't hold your breath. No studies have begun, no funding has been found, etc.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't think that the Oakland stations under Broadway are ugly, and the downtown SF stations except Embarcadero do look ugly to me, although they're better designed than the Oakland stations. Downtown Berkeley looks cool, so do Ashby and Glen Park, Balboa Park has to be the ugliest station in the system, the entrance looks like a rusting metal shack next to a freeway overpass.
Abe writes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>Besides, the NYC subway lines only run every hour at night anyway, right?<<<<<<<<
WRONG! Headways on N.Y.C. Subways at night are 20 minutes in the majority of cases.
Peace,
Andee
Yes, the original BART stations are for the most part pretty utilitarian, but all the newer stations are huge overbuilt temples to wasted money with grand, monumental entrances surrounded by elaborate parking lots.
AND if you have the Federal tax tit available,... The DC Metro is a prime example of monumentalist architecture.
As opposed to what? Banal-looking transit stations that resemble detention facilities? The public deserves better than that.
I suppose its okay for an 'imperial' capital, but the money could have been better spent. The flashing lights are cute but hokey.
The flashing lights are a safety device to warn of approaching trains, particularly for people who are hearing-impaired.
The signage on the cars conversely is nearly illegible. The finest design still is the as delivered slant 40 with the giant lettering.
I'm talking about the station designs, not the rolling stock. Rolling stock is replaced every couple decades anyway, but the physical infrastructure will last for generations.
Also the insistance on overly deep bores and zillions of feet of escalators is ludicrous. Yes once you have put the tunnel too far down you need motor assist SO THINK.
Deep bore construction made perfect sense for the DC Metro. In addition to Washington being a city with steep hills, deep-bore tunneling also prevented the city neighborhoods from having their guts ripped out for the sake of shallow cut-and-cover tunnel construction. And even if shallower tunnels were used, escalators and elevators would still have been required for passenger comfort and wheelchair accessibility.
While imperfect, the IND in general is a good compromise.
The IND may have been a good compromise in the 1930's, but times and public expectations have changed drastically since then. If the DC Metro had been built to IND specifications, it would live up to everybody's worst expectations of rapid transit and would be a filthy, graffiti-ridden eyesore today. The fundamental lesson here -- and this has been demonstrated hundreds of times in hundreds of cities -- is that there is a direct coorelation between the esteem in which architecture regards the public and the esteem in which the public regards architecture. In other words, if a subway station is designed to be a well-designed work of beauty, then it will likely be treated as such by the public. If a subway station is designed to be a banal utilitarian cellar, then it too will be treated as such by the public.
BART, DC Metro, and the rest of the 'new systems' have fallen prey to the (irony) Stalinist (as in Moscow) museum /temple style.
Bullshit. The whole point of my previous posting was that the monumental style of the DC Metro was a DIRECT PRODUCT of purely functional design considerations. Example: In the early stages of the design, the underground stations were to have plain, flat ceilings. However, the vaulted design turned out to be much stronger structurally and more cost-effective financially. Thus, the beauty of the resulting vaulted ceilings is merely a side effect of "utilitarian" considerations.
On a more fundamental level, the built environment we leave behind to future generations is by far our greatest legacy, and speaks the most about our values and aspirations. Nobody gives a rat's ass how much it cost to build St. Peter's, The Eiffel Tower, The Brooklyn Bridge, or Fallingwater. Past generations are remembered for their architects and builders, not for their accountants and pencil-pushing beaurocrats. The Sydney Opera House in Australia was grossly over-budget, but nobody regrets for a second that it was built. Some things are more important to our cultural legacy than a line item on a budget.
What we need is a sufficiently clean design and very frequent trains! The station should be something you rarely spend time in. All that said, Weese & Co do deserve credit for the air handling and noise damping. , but I will take noisy and even dirty in trade for ALL NIGHT and FLAT FARE.
Frequent service and a flat fare are not mutually-exclusive of good design. But the topic of my posting was not about frequent service or flat fares; it was about how the physical design of the Washington Metro moves beyond narrow-minded attitudes about good design.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I have heard rumors that WMATA style underground stations cost *less* than a regular box station would have costed.
I have heard rumors that WMATA style underground stations cost *less* than a regular box station would have costed.
It's not a rumor. According to the December 1995 issue of Progressive Architecture (which had a rather in-depth article regarding the 20th anniversary of the DC Metro system):
The equal role accorded to the architects did not guarantee that the engineers would readily share design authority. We must thank the intransigent Gordon Bunshaft of Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, who dominated the Commission on Fine Arts in the 1960's, for the vaulted station configuration. Weese and his staff, impressed by the overseas transit systems they had visited, favored vaulted stations, but the engineers -- Deleuw Cather -- had proved to their own satisfaction that a flat-topped station configuration would save money; as a result, the architects had not been allowed to broach the subject of vaulted stations before the commission. But Burnshaft came up with the same concept at a Commission of Fine Arts meeting and insisted it be given further study. WMATA manager [Jackson] Graham ordered a third-party recalculation by engineers Amman & Whitney, which showed that for locations with an overburden of more than 14 feet -- almost all those planned -- the vault was more economical. Thus the architects' preference prevailed over the ostensibly objective judgement of the engineers, only because the review panel insisted and the client handled the issue wisely.
-- David
Chicago, IL
This makes sense. The vault essentially supports itself as one continuous structure - lots of reinforced concrete, but one big structure. A traditional flat-top would require lots of columns to support it or a very heavy (and thick) 'roof' which would be supported by equally massive side walls. Of course, we all know that WMATA didn't skimp in its construction techniques anyway...
Well, and I can hardly call this skimping - they DID switch from pouring concrete into moulds and forms to building pre-cast concrete vault panels and erecting them underground - the six-coffer (Arch II) design found at places like Glenmont, Mt.Vernon Square, Georgia Avenue, Columbia Heights (modified design) AND the soon-to-open Congress Heights. It did save them construction costs and still kept the overall strength of the vault design.
I am not sure if the Red Line stations between Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams Morgan and Medical Center also employed this "pre-cast" technique, or were they also poured. They are similar to the above-mentioned, except they have four coffers rather than six.
Wayne
>> Nobody gives a rat's ass how much it cost to build St. Peter's, The Eiffel Tower, The Brooklyn Bridge, or Fallingwater.
If nobody had cared how much it cost to build St. Peter's, today's Protestants would still be Catholic. :)
Anyway, I'm with you on good design for subway stations. It's absurd to say that the subways are or should somehow be an architecture-neutral environment--people react to any space they're in, and if they react badly to the space they'll avoid it if they can, and vandalize it if they can't.
The concept of "the elegant solution" is useful here--I'm not thinking of Mrs. Astor's drawing room, but of high-school geometry, where the proof that solves the problem in the fewest steps is considered both the most efficient and the most sophisticated. (Did you know they don't tech proofs anymore in geometry? I don't know what they do instead.) Moving tons of people through a constricted space with lots of dirt on top of it is a real architectural problem, and the Washington concrete vaults are one example of an elegant solution to it.
Whether we'd get good design with a Second Avenue Subway: almost certainly not. New Yorkers don't have any reason in the existing system to expect good architecture underground, and TA isn't likely to budget for outside architects to raise those expectations. (Of course, the Jubilee Line demonstrated that outside architects were often able to find solutions so elegant that they paid back the architecture fee in construction savings compared to the engineers' proposals; but it's a separate line on the budget, and justifying it would mean that much more bother for somebody.)
Lastly, current construction in New York amply demonstrates that there are no architects working here that you'd want to build a subway station. I can't think of too many national architects who'd be suited for it either--not too many, at least, who aren't already soured on working with local engineering bureaucracies, like Pei at the Javits Center. If they wanted to call Paris, or London to get some folks who have cut their teeth on the Jubilee Line, that would be swell, but it seems doubly unlikely.
Dave-- your mentioning high school geometry proofs awakened me. Unfortunately they still do geometry proofs in many high schools. That is a whole other issue.
The issue of style deeply interests me. I'd like to quote something out of a math book that I xeroxed maybe 30 years ago. Unfortunately, I don't know the title or author, but I think he would understand.
Style is like good manners. Its lambent presence is barely noticeable, but its absence is conspicuous. Take in a broad sense, style can be discerned almost everywhere. One can speak of style (or its absence) in playing tennis,in hosting a dinner party, in presiding over a meeting, in teaching a class, or even in writing out the solution to a problem in calculus.
In such activities style is characterized by the light touch that draws harmony out of imminent disorder and makes difficult things seem easy. Everyone hates the burden of unnecessary fuss and bother; the grace that comes from easing this burden is the hallmark of stle. In any purposeful activity it is style that eases the way.
Style must be natural because it cannot be affected. Affectation will draw attention only to itself, while style would draw attention straightway to the goal at hand.
Style is an outgrowth of education, not a product of it, for style cannot be readily taught or learned. It is acquired almost incidentally, like good manners, by those who want to please. Yet the final aim of education may be the cultivation of a sense of style.
Geometry proofs are still taught in MQ3. One is required to answer one proof on the Sequential Math II Regents.
Lastly, current construction in New York amply demonstrates that there are no architects working here that you'd want to build a subway station. I can't think of too many national architects who'd be suited for it either--not too many, at least, who aren't already soured on working with local engineering bureaucracies, like Pei at the Javits Center. If they wanted to call Paris, or London to get some folks who have cut their teeth on the Jubilee Line, that would be swell, but it seems doubly unlikely.
You hit upon a common lament in the architectural community these days. While there are a few bright spots out there, we find ourselves in the midst of a very uninspired architectural movement. During the 60's and 70's, many architects and planners had incredibly idealistic ideas about how the built environment could impact the future of society. Since then, we have been trying to repair the damage their creations have wrought on our cities (Boston City Hall Plaza, anybody? Cabrini-Green of Chicago?), and have over-compensated by retreating into either backwards-looking nostalgia for the past or bland architectural mush designed not to offend anybody for any reason.
This seems especially true in the United States, as most of the best architectural talent seems to be coming from Europe and Japan at the moment. Santiago Calatrava, Sir Norman Foster and Tadao Ando come to mind as representatives of a bold, forward-looking architecture that will hopefully find its way across the pond in time.
This is not to say that there is no architectural talent in the US right now; Frank Gehry is turning heads with his sweeping forms, and my former boss, Ralph Johnson of Perkins & Will, is widely considered a rising star in the national scene for his projects that embrace their urban contexts while still asserting themselves as thouroughly Modernist buildings. There are also countless small firms and individual practitioners which are producing very good work on smaller-scale projects, but find themselves struggling for recognition and the oppurtunity to move on to higher-profile projects.
If the Second Avenue Subway were up to me, I'd hire a well-established firm such as Harry Weese Associates (of Washington Metro fame) to oversee and coordinate an overall master plan for the entire line, but sponsor a design competition for smaller local firms to submit entries for individual station designs. The best of the entries would then be commissioned to each design one station along the line. The nice thing about designing one individual station is that the project is small enough in scale to easily be handled by an office of 5-10 people, yet still high-profile enough to be noticed by the public and the design community.
Airport Railway Station, Lyon, France. Santiago Calatrava, architect.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
You're certainly right about the dystopic effects of the utopian vision of the '60s and '70s. I'm afraid, though, that you flatter New York by assuming that period to be an exception to a civic tradition of prestige architecture, like the one Chicago prides itself on. New York has never been a place that encourages distinguished architecture, though the exceptions to that rule are certainly wonderful ones; the enormous pressures of the real estate market here have dictated that nearly all building in Manhattan be speculative, which in turn dictates that its architecture be vernacular--i.e., undistinguished, and the buildings of a particular period largely indistinguishable. As quickly as new problems, methods, or opportunities have arisen in New York building, solutions have been innovated, incorporated into the vernacular formula, and become instant cliches (no-law tenement> Old Law tenement> New-Law tenement> housing project; skyscrapers' progress from 1916-light-law pointy to 1960's FAR boxes in plazas). We prize brownstone houses now, but the stuff was the concrete of its day: cheap, light, easily worked by semiskilled labor, and consequently ubiquitous--it was so standard in the 1890s that Edith Wharton complained about the deadly brown sameness of the miles of avenues. The standardizing speculative impulse means that nearly all buildings in New York since the opening of the Erie Canal have been designed by their developers or by hack architects in their employ, proficient in applying a current formula to a particular site to extract the maximum profit. Projects for individual clients wanting signature buildings--whether homeowners, or corporations building their offices--are thus terribly rare in Manhattan, where it has been so much cheaper to rent or buy built space from a speculator, and they're getting rarer as the market continues to constrict.
Insofar as the city's buildings are diverse, it's because of redevelopment, the replacement of old typical buildings with new ones, which may liven up formerly-uniform streets but has also meant the destruction of some buildings whose real distinction we failed to appreciate: Penn, the Produce Exchange at Bowling Green, White's MSG and Madison Square Presbyterian (which did not last out its own decade), the Singer Tower (tallest building ever demolished, at 47 stories). The preservation movement has raised our consciousness about the worth of old landmarks and old vernaculars, but it has had no effect on the quality or standardization of new building, which is currently dominated by the retail/residential formula of wide-box-under-tall-box, as at Lincoln Square and the new building at Union Square (the latter includes a fifty-foot blank wall overlooking a public park, with bad art pasted on the side to distract us).
Even public projects, which tend to include complex programs that might engender innovative architecture, tend here to be subjected to the current architectural formulae, which naturally sit well with a certain bean-counting intellectual inertia even if they happen not to represent the most cost-effective solution. If there is no remotely applicable formula available, the project tends not to get built, no matter how great the need to the city to solve the problem, nor how enthusiastic architects are to try--the Venturi plan for the Staten Island Ferry terminal has been gathering dust for years, for example.
All this is a long way of saying that MTA will never, ever entertain the idea of individual designs for subway stations. (These guys are about to move offices into 2 Broadway, the spec box that replaced Post's Produce Exchange.) To be fair, the great variety of sites and problems among the new stations of the Jubilee Line simply isn't present along the stubway route: shallow profile, two tracks, straight line, heavier loading on the uptown platform throughout, unless a transfer station is built at 125th and Lex; but no matter how diverse the real situations were, MTA would seek to create a template and apply it case-by-case with as little modification as possible. This is the reason that the IND seems overbuilt, as has been discussed--the institutional assumption that what's good for 34th St. is more or less good for Bedford Park Blvd., or at least easier than coming up with something else. Sure, those lines were built sixty years ago, by a company that no longer exists; but the design culture surrounding them hasn't changed a damn since.
It's still possible to make a standard subway design into a signature project throughout, of course: the original IRT spent a few extra bucks on design appliques and iron kiosks (a very few, given the cost of those materials and labor) with acclaimed results, and Guimard's Metro arches were even cheaper; Foster's uniform subway stations are the other thing to see in Bilbao, if a distant second; the stations on Paris' line 14 are all equally gorgeous. I doubt that MTA will see this opportunity by itself, for the reasons above; it would take pressure from someone with a hand on the purse strings, in Albany or Congress, to get them to hire a prestigious architect. It would most likely have to be a local one, though--what New York politico is going to go to bat for Frank Gehry, to take your example? Always assuming, of course, that those purse strings are going to get pulled at all--so keep knocking wood.
You're certainly right about the architectural climate in NYC. Even the handful of architecturally noteworthy buildings in New York have heavily borrowed their styles from other places: Various European historical styles at first, and then the modernism of the Chicago School after World War II. Even the art deco masterpieces of the Chrysler Building and Rockefeller Center imported their design vocabularies from Paris. Frank Lloyd Wright once scoffed that New York "reproduces much, but produces nothing." I'm not sure if I would put it in quite such blunt terms myself, but he makes his point.
The saving grace of New York City is that the sheer scale of the city and the wide variety of buildings produces a physical environment that is far more vibrant and noteworthy than the mere sum of its parts.
Chicago is the first and probably still the only city in the US to have developed its own original stlyes of architecture; the orignal Chicago School of Architecture by Louis Sullivan, the Prairie Stlye by Sullivan's protege Frank Lloyd Wright, and most recently the international style of the Second Chicago School led by Mies Van Der Rohe (which fermented in Germany before coming to Chicago, but still owing its inspiration to Sullivan) all trace their roots to Chicago. This is no doubt due to the fact that the entire city burnt down in 1871 and had to be rebuilt from a clean slate. Also, the city grew up as a frontier town that has traditionally been eager to explore new directions not just in terms of architecture, but also literature and music as well. (Electrified blues which later "had a baby and they named it rock 'n' roll", Gospel music... writers Saul Bellow, Studs Terkel... The list goes on forever. Most recently, one fo Chicago's more notable exports has been improv comedy talent from The Second City stage to national TV.)
And Chicago still strongly identifies with its architecture today. It is not uncommon for normal people on the street to be carrying on a conversation about the merits of a new skyscraper under construction, and "So, what's your favorite building in the city so far?" is a common question for newcomers. Even the Borders and Barnes & Noble bookstores here have entire sections dedicated to architecture, whereas even their counterparts in NYC tend to limit their architecture selection to one or two shelves at the most. (In any other city, look for the "architecture" section and you'll most likely find books about how to renovate your bathroom or build a deck.)
Unfortunately, the forces of buearocratic ineptitude are also in full force here. Last month I breifly worked on six stations of the CTA Brown Line renovation project which Perkins & Will is doing. It's frustrating to have every design decision either second-guessed or outright rejected by the CTA before the architects are even given the opportunity to discuss its merits. At a typical client meeting, the CTA had 35 representatives present, each of which had to be completely satisfied. THIRTY-FIVE!! This gives the derogatory term "design-by-committee" a whole new meaning, and the best possible outcome is a station design that is merely mediocre as opposed to outright horrible.
The design of the Second Avenue Subway, if and when it ever happens, will most likely be conducted in much the same fashion, unfortunately.
But it never hurts to dream a little... Somebody's gotta do it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
When is that bid from? If it is from the 1970s (when there actually was construction on the 2nd Ave. subway), prices for everything have gone up considerably since then.
NYCTA put them all out of business.
yeah what he said...
I have heard that Bombardier holds all of the pattens from St. Louis, Budd and Pullman. May or may not be true, and by the way they build the Monorail for Disney, Americas favorite transit system.
Bombardier holds Pullman's and Budd's designs. I'm not sure about St. Louis Car's.
David
St Louis did business as somthing like general steel or somthing like that for a while before they quit production so there may not be a direct line to St. Louis Car.
I had heard that they held all North American Patents for passenger rail equipment. If true it's nice that they cared to consoldate the technology and hopefully to preserve the history of the industy.
I thought US Steel/General Steel bought St. Louis before folding it...
That is correct. GSI still builds the GS-70 line of car trucks.
St. Louis died after the R-44 order. The last two cars in that order were the shells for the SOAC cars.
The R-46 was the last order for Pullman, though a good part of the problems were caused by the Rockwell trucks. All of those claims and lawsuits were too much for Pullman
The R-29? was the last for ACF, though these cars did not cause the company to leave the business. Canadian cousin CCF still survives - now part of UTDC after a stint with Hawker-Siddley. Many cars running in Canada and the US.
Boeing built two transit orders, the joint LRV order for Boston & San Francisco, and el cars for Chicago. The Chicago cars generated little publicity and few problems following Chicago's specs. The LRVs put Boeing out of the business due to specs which satisfied noone other than Rube Goldberg.
Moral: Design a good car - builder will profit. Don't - uh-oh!
.
Budd is still around but i guess they aren't making trains any more
Budd built Chicago's 2600-series L cars. No one will ever mistake them for R-32s, that's for sure. The 2200s are another story.
They still make truck trailers and freight cars.
-Hank
[ The R-29? was the last for ACF, though these cars did not cause the company to leave the business. Canadian cousin CCF still
survives - now part of UTDC after a stint with Hawker-Siddley. Many cars running in Canada and the US. ]
ACF is still building freight cars. They just got out of the passenger car business.
-- Ed Sachs
BTW, the R29 was built by St. Louis. The R26 and 28 were built by ACF. It's no suprise to see that the R29 is in the worst shape of the three these days.
I didn't remember which was which - therefore the question mark. Thank you for the correction!
Gerry
Bombardier also is big in recreational vehicle like snowmobiles and those SeaDoo boats (large jetskis).
Doug aka BMTman
I think they are making commuter jet aircraft too now.
02/02/2000
I don't think the NYCTA put them out of business. I believe it was the "low bid" process that did them in.
Bill Newkirk
Take the Pullman Standard Company. The R46's had cracked trucks from Rockwell and Pullman and Rockwell settled with NYCTA at the time for about $77 million. It is industry fact that R46 put Pullman out of business and R44 put St. Louis Car out of business also.
But that's not the city's fault. It's the fault of the subcontractors who gave the R46 truck contract to Rockwell.
Actually, Pullman Standard got out of the passenger car business, last I heard they continue to make freight equipment.
The R44 put St. Louis out of business The R46 KO'd Pullman. Nobody wants mechanically and structurely troublesome cars.
What happened to Budd and ACF? Their last car types for the NYCTA (R32 for Budd and the R26 for ACF) were actually very good subway cars.
Outside the R27/30 and R38, did any car built by St. Louis end up not being a headache?
Pullman went belly-up because NYCTA wanted them to guarantee every individual part. That's like asking GM to garantee the tires, light bulbs and seat cushions on all of their cars.
Doug aka BMTman
Pullman did not have to accept the contract. they went out of business because transit sued them and no one wins against transit
Exactly. Once they agreed to the terms and the amount of payment, they became responsible to meet them. If they couldn't, then they should have passed on the contract.
St. Louis Car's big downfall seems to have been handling the changing technology that the MTA brought in with the R-44. They were NYCTA's main car supplier in the 1960s, despite the largest single order coming from Budd.
The R-17s in the mid-50s, and the R-29/33/36 and R-36WF in the early 60s for the IRT all were St. Louis Car, and all have been pretty reliable. Aside from the R-38s on the BMT/IND, the R-40s' only problem was in front end design, not mechanical. The 40s, 40Ms and R-42s all went into service with little problem, mainly because outside of the exterior sheet metal, they were pretty much the same type of car as the TA had been buying since the R-15 order.
Between the R-44, the R-46 and the Flxible bus fiasco, the 1970s were not a great time for new equipment orders for the MTA.
Pullman-Standard and St. Louis Car are good and dead. The R44 were the last from St. Louis, Amtrak Superliners the last from PS;they sold all the tooling and associated patent rights to all the passenger cars they ever built to Bombardier, IIRC. Budd still builds freight cars.
-Hank
I thought BUDD was dead too. Isn't that the old BUDD factory along the NEC in north Philly right past the El overpass. Its a big plant of some kind, sorta blue. There are abandonned tracks leading to it and on some of the tracks next to the building are old passenger cars. There's a big sign, but it is so faded I can't make a positive ID. However I think I can recognize the BUDD logo. BUDD was such a cool company. They used stainless steel for everything, even aircraft at one point. PATCO uses a mix of BUDD and Vickers Canada (BUDD lisance). If you get a BUDD car it's good luck for the rest of your trip, a VC car, bad luck. Why did BUDD go under. I mean Rapid transit systems are constantly buying new stuff. But like I said when PATCO needed more stuff done BUDD farmed it out, why?
02/02/2000
Wasn't the Budd Company revived shortly as "Transit America" a while back ?
Bill Newkirk
Let's not forget that M-K was building equipment too for awhile.
[ Let's not forget that M-K was building equipment too for awhile. ]
and they went under also. The bonding companies put together another company called "Amerail" to finish off M-Ks contracts, but Amerail was only intended to be a temporary expedient, and has since also folded its tents.
-- Ed Sachs
Is Amerail operating the Hornell, NY, shops now?
In its last years of business Budd was controlled by a German concern, and yes, it was called Transit America for a period before finally calling it a day.
Actually, if I’m not mistaken Budd is also no more. As for St. Louis, they also built the “SOAC” cars which toured the country in the mid-’70’s, as is made clear in the SOAC section of the website.
Will the NYC Transit Museum be hosting tours this month? I took two the last time I was in town but can't find any info on their web site this time around. Called them and they said they would be open for a couple of more months before the renovation begins but he didn't know about any tours.
Will be in town the week of 2/14 to 2/20.
Are you a member of the museum? I received a couple of days ago, a preview of Feb & March tours. On Sunday Feb 20 at 11 AM, there will be a tour entitled Taking the A Train Uptown. They will be exploring several of the stations on the 8th Ave IND line--103rd, 135th, 145th, 190th which is 180 feet below the street level, and 181st. This is the only thing scheduled when you will be here. The give members first crack at the tours, and the reservation period for members is Feb 7 thru Feb 10.
The tours generally sell out fast. If you are not a member, and are really interested in this tour, maybe you could become a member over the phone and then get early crack at the tours. The phone number to make reservations is 718 243-8601. It is the education department.
That sounds great...was planning on going out on Amtrak that day, could delay trip to the evening. Do you know if Penn Station will store luggage for a ticketed Amtrak passenger?
Yes, but only luggage delivered within four hours of train departure time, according to the sign.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's already a solid R-38 consist running on the E.
I rode it on it's last trip from Euclid on the 10:13.
N-4024/5-4087/6-4139/8-402/1-3970/1-S
Archer said they don't plan to lay it up any
where in Queens (Blvd line). So it looks as though it will go back to Pitkin/Euclid to lay up.
We've had THREE, that's 3, switches split in the last 2 days!!
#1 Approx 05:00 Monday on a GO--A train at Utica Ave on 2 track encountered red/red homeball and was told by CC to hook ball, check iron and proceed. He only checked the facing point switch, proceeded, split the trailing point and was tripped by the offside ball!
The tower operator had to run up to Hoyt St to give the lineup to a previous train that was trapped on 4 track which he mistakenly sent there.
Upon leaving Utica tower, he had left the 4 to 2 route in.
The train splitting the switch was the first "regular"
after the GO!!
#2 Jamaica Yard, approx 21:30, Monday--
No details on this one yet--I'll send when I find out more.
#3 207th Street Yard, Approx 00:00, Mon/Tue--
A work train split a switch, more to follow.
3 splits in 2 days, 2 happening within 3 hrs of each other!!
Gee--it looks like everybody's folowing the monthly
"Safety Conferences" & "24 Hour Stand Downs" to the letter--NOT!!
The above are basically 2-4 Accidents/Incidents as described on a sheet of paper. I have to get my crews to sign either an attendence form or multipurpose critique sheet (Bubble Dot Form) stating that they've read about them.
Basically what these are supposed to accomplish is PREVENTION of further accidents (also falls/slips/trips)
and incidents (primarily wrong lineups/splits/going through closed barn doors & doors opening at the wrong time/place).
Obviously they're NOT WORKING!!
What they indisputibility do is create jobs for numerous managers and their attendent staffs (SOMEBODY has to copy the critiques and then file all the signatures!).
(E-mail me personally for their names--Ths isn't the proper forum for "mudslinging".)
There's already a solid R-38 consist running on the E.
I rode it on it's last trip from Euclid on the 10:13.
N-4024/5-4087/6-4139/8-402/1-3970/1-S
Archer said they don't plan to lay it up any
where in Queens (Blvd line). So it looks as though it will
go back to Pitkin/Euclid to lay up.
We've had THREE, that's 3, switches split in the last 2
days!!
#1 Approx 05:00 Monday on a GO--A train at Utica Ave on 2
track encountered red/red homeball and was told by CC to
hook ball, check iron and proceed. He only checked the
facing point switch, proceeded, split the trailing point
and was tripped by the offside ball!
The tower operator had to run up to Hoyt St to give the
lineup to a previous train that was trapped on 4 track
which he mistakenly sent there.
Upon leaving Utica tower, he had left the 4 to 2 route in.
The train splitting the switch was the first "regular"
after the GO!!
#2 Jamaica Yard, approx 21:30, Monday--
No details on this one yet--I'll send when I find out
more.
#3 207th Street Yard, Approx 00:00, Mon/Tue--
A work train split a switch, more to follow.
3 splits in 2 days, 2 happening within 3 hrs of each
other!!
Gee--it looks like everybody's folowing the monthly
"Safety Conferences" & "24 Hour Stand Downs" to the
letter--NOT!!
The above are basically 2-4 Accidents/Incidents as
described on a sheet of paper. I have to get my crews to
sign either an attendence form or multipurpose critique
sheet (Bubble Dot Form) stating that they've read about
them.
Basically what these are supposed to accomplish is
PREVENTION of further accidents (also falls/slips/trips)
and incidents (primarily wrong lineups/splits/going
through closed barn doors & doors opening at the wrong
time/place).
Obviously they're NOT WORKING!!
What they indisputibility do is create jobs for numerous
managers and their attendent staffs (SOMEBODY has to copy
the critiques and then file all the signatures!).
(E-mail me personally for their names--Ths isn't the
proper forum for "mudslinging".)
The solution, of course, will be an order to stop 15 feet ahead of every switch, no matter how it's set and no matter what the signals say :-(
I think I'm just kidding, but who knows?
David
Where are we, BSM? (Sorry Dan L. :)
No, the dead stop before ALL facing point switches (at the switch point, not 15' away) is a fixture of the United Railways and Electric Company, The Baltimore Transit Company and BSM.
All seriousness aside, the actual "fix" for split switches on NYTC is the instalation of electric locks, actuated upon operation of the switch and released by the last trailing axle in the direction the switch was set for.
Yeah, just busting chops. I know that rule is prototype, not
something you guys made up!
Electric locking is already applied to all switches under power
control in the NYCTS...and that's what we're talking about here,
not hand-throws. The situations that Vinny described all happened
because the "bypass" mode was in effect. In the case of the
T/O who was ordered to hook the homeball and proceed, the T/O
failed to observe the rule which advises to look out for broken
rail or iron against you. In the case of that yard move, blame
the people who put the dwarf signal there instead of a few feet
further back of the switch!
Having repaired electric switches after run-throughs, I can tell
you it's no fun. Of course, when a little trolley car runs through
a rigid electric switch, you have the added bonus of re-railing
the car!
This will be covered in Shoreline's Operator Training??
>G< (intresting though)....
Look at it this way: There are no trip cocks at Shore Line, so you won't get tripped in an emergency. You'll be expected to abide by the signals in front of you. If there's a signal set to danger (red), you must stop at the signal in question and ask for permission to pass it. As for switch movements, the switches on the mainline are sprung so as you pass a switch that is set against you it will be possible to pass because your wheels will push the points in the proper direction. Be warned though - you may only acheive certain speeds through the switches. One switch is a particular problem and you have to move at an extra slow speed. A word to the wise - use wise judgement!
Any switches that aren't sprung such as the one leading to the loop, you'll have to get out and turn it to your desired route. Anyway, enjoy your time at the handles of the streetcar....
-Stef
I think it would make sense for the MTA to reroute the E and F south of West 4th. There are already trains on 6th ave that go to Coney Island, and none on 8th.
Too much service and not enough cars available for such a thing to happen....
-Stef
These were facing point split, can a switch be a spring switch on a facing point??
Absolutely not. Just watch your speed and make sure you have the right lineup.
-Stef
In the Branford Elec Ry rulebook, motormen are instructed to
check the alignment of all switches before passing over them,
facing or trailing. This is in addition to whatever the signals
might say. The signals at Branford are used mostly for block
protection, not switch indication. This is appropriate for a
trolley line. Back here in NY, where you are moving quickly and
in the dark, the signals provide an absolute check over switch
position. In NY, if the switch points are hung up in the middle
but somehow the signal clears up, and you go through, that's
not your fault (but nowadays they'll try to give you 20 in the
street anyway). At Branford, Seashore, Warehouse Point, BSM
etc. most electric railway museums, it would be your fault!
Branford has a wide variety of switches to learn about, single-point,
double-point, Ramapo stands, Racor stands, single-point spring
switches and even an electric switch from 1912. Not as bad as
Seashore though where you have to learn to read a single-point,
double-slip switch. Ouch.
Aw shucks, Jeff! The double-slip switch is fun at Seashore! When we train operators, we use a hand-flat to show how moving the four single points changes the configuration of the switch. By the way, that is the only switch at which we require a stop-then-proceed from any direction.
When I was up there in the summer the operator of my car, coming
out of the visitor's center loop and wanting to proeed towards the
main line, stopped, examined the switch, had a conference with his
conductor, got out, threw the switch, proeeded, realized he was
heading towards, um, well, I don't really know the layout well
enough, but y know the other track, backed up, had another
conference, changed the switch again, this time went the right way :)
Let me ask a Seashore Instructor a question about that switch:
Do you have to move the points in pairs? If you line the facing
point say to go straight, do you have to set the leaving
trailing point, or does it spring over?
The Seashore double-slip switch has four movable points. None of them spring; they are held in place by wooden blocks. So any move requires that two of the four points be in the appropriate position (the facing point on the coming-from and the trailing point on the going-to).
We have two operating spring-switches on the property; one each leaving the Talbott Park and Visitors' Center loops. All other switches must be aligned by hand.
Aren't there circuits to verify that the switch points have moved all the was into position before the signal can be cleared?
If you are talking about the subway system, then yes, an
interlocking signal can't be cleared unless the switches over
the route it controls are in alignment
The TA does not use section locking for switch levers?
There were solid R-38 consists on the 'B' this AM too.
As for the split switches, I heard about the A train as it was a main-line incident. It seems to me that if this is going on, the TSSs in te district better start whipping the pony.
Before I post this I wanna say thankx to all of you who answered my question about the Myrtle avenue El. Before moving to Seattle I lived in the windy city for 8 years, and there were always two things I wondered. First, the apparently abandoned section of track extending north from the confluence of the Douglas and Congress lines to intersect with the Lake (a.k.a. "Green") line. It appears from looking at your (excellent) track maps that it is still used as a service track. Me and some of my friends walked the entire length of that piece of El and found arches over one of the Cross-streets that is near Chicago stadium. We figured the arch-supports were evidence of a station - so - my question is: WAS there a station there, and did the Douglas line originally use part of the lake tracks?
Now my second question. As a child, I have a vague memory of seeing an old CTA map from the 20s or the 30s in a museum somewhere. This map showed a 'L' branch from what appeared to be the Englewood/Jackson Park line to the west, with a loop around some square. I have never been down there to look for any old supports or anything though - the farthest south I was ever on the El was to Sox-35th on the Dan Ryan line.
And now a third - having not lived in Chicago for over 4 years,
am I correct in hearing that the CTA has eliminated the old line names? I grew up with "Congress" being the name of the blue line - now it's Forest Park? What's that? Also did they really kill the A/B service on all lines? I can't imagine that - it must take like over an hour to get to the loop from O'Hare now. When did this happen?
I hope that wasn't too many questions at once.
Abe
"Me and some of my friends walked the entire length of that piece of El and found arches over one of the Cross-streets that is near Chicago stadium. We figured the arch-supports were evidence of a station - so - my question is: WAS there a station there, and did the Douglas line originally use part of the lake tracks?"
The 1933 Chicago Rapid Transit Company map shows a station on the old Metropolitan L at Madison and Paulina (the north-south street that runs along the L tracks you're talking about), so yes, there was a station there.
As to whether Douglas trains ever used the Lake Street L, I don't think they ever did in revenue (passenger-carrying) service. The Metropolitan system was built by a different company than the Lake Street line and was operated separately until about 1913 or so. The Met consisted of the Logan Square branch, the Garfield Park branch, and the Douglas branch. Logan Square trains proceeded along Milwaukee Avenue to Paulina where they headed south, and Douglas trains came north from 22nd Street along Paulina. They met the Garfield Park Branch, where all three merged and proceeded into the Loop, entering the Loop at Van Buren and Wells. Basically, the Blue line and the old Met are one and the same, with the Dearborn-Milwaukee subway replacing the Paulina L tracks and the Met's L into the Loop.
There's basically no sign of the turnoff from the Loop to the Met nowadays, but the Douglas still uses that junction to access the Congress/Forest Park tracks into the Dearborn subway, and, as you already stated, the Paulina tracks as far as the Lake Street line are still used for non-revenue moves (shifting empty L cars from one line to another). The Congress/Forest Park branch runs basically on the same route as the Garfield Park branch, which was torn down for the construction of the Congress (now Eisenhower) Expressway.
"This map showed a 'L' branch from what appeared to be the Englewood/Jackson Park line to the west, with a loop around some square."
That would be the Stockyards Branch of the South Side L. As the name would suggest, it made a loop around the stockyards. Long gone, as are the stockyards it served (though IIRC, the L branch was torn down before the stockyards were).
"Am I correct in hearing that the CTA has eliminated the old line names? I grew up with 'Congress' being the name of the blue line -
now it's Forest Park?"
That's correct. When they renamed the lines by colors (and CTA had been using the colors consistently on maps long before the renaming), the CTA introduced new roll signs for the trains with the destination terminal of the train in white on a background of the line color (or in line color on white for one terminal of the two lines with branches, Blue and Green). At least in my opinion, that makes more sense than to use outdated names -- the Congress Expressway hasn't been called that for decades but the L line still bore that name, and the Cermak branch probably tells you more about where it goes than the old "Douglas" name. And of course O'Hare trains are still labeled "O'Hare" and Howard trains are still signed "Howard".
"Also did they really kill the A/B service on all lines? I can't imagine that - it must take like over an hour to get to the loop from O'Hare now. When did this happen?"
April 28, 1995, according to www.chicago-L.org
To give my opinion, I really don't think that eliminating A/B really added that long to the trip, at least on the O'Hare part of the Blue where it only added two stops. I would think that getting rid of A/B on the Red would have been somewhat more problematic since it added four stops between Howard and downtown. But the Red has the Purple expresses (Howard-Belmont nonstop) as a rush-hour alternative for many.
Remember that when CTA had A/B, since there are no passing tracks, the "A" often caught up with the "B" or vice versa, thus wiping out any potential time savings. It was a common thing when A/B existed for trains to stand between stations for no apparent reason, and the cause was usually a train stopped in the station ahead, even if your train was not going to stop at that station. Also, A/B operation was only during the day on weekdays; weekend and owl riders had to make all stops anyway. All in all, A/B was a useless half-measure and a poor substitute for true express service, and CTA did as well to get rid of it. In my humble opinion, of course.
I think the stock yard tracks were destroyed in a large fire in 1934. Service was not restored until 1935. The rebuilt route lasted until 1957.
Also on what is now the north blue line (Logan Square) I think there was a brach that ran west from Milwaukee street on North Ave out to the Northwestern tracks by Central Park
Also the Ravenswood turned into the Brown line and is now called Kimbal
So now the Ravenswood isn't the Ravenswood anymore? Boy I leave Chicago and the whole place falls apart! Is the Dan Ryan still the Dan Ryan too?
Well, the Dan Ryan Expressway still is, but the Dan Ryan L is now part of the Red Line, and the roll signs for Dan Ryan trains are marked "95th".
95th, eh? Is the Skokie Swift still the Skokie Swift now or is it the "Dempster"?
P.S. Thankx to all for all the info on that old section of el down on Paulina I had always wondered about that
95th, eh? Is the Skokie Swift still the Skokie Swift now or is it the "Dempster"?
Neither. It's the Yellow Line.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It's just YELLOW now huh? I liked it better when they had colors AND line names - Blue for Congress, Douglas, and O'Hare etc. etc. etc.
Oh well maybe in a few years the CTA will realize the error of their ways
No they won't. Those lines with branches (Blue, Green) have names for them: Cermak Branch, Forest Park Branch, O'Hare Branch. East 63rd Branch, Ashland Branch, Lake Branch.
I REFUSE to call the Ravenswood, Skokie Swift and Dan Ryan lines anything but those names. Ravenswood and Skokie Swift especially are great because they roll off the top of your tongue unlike the new names.
Brooklyn residents still use the old BMT Southern Division titles for the D/Q, B, F, and N: Brighton, West End, Culver, and Sea Beach.
I don't mind using Chicago's color code, even though the Red Line is still the North/South to me.
For one thing the red line has only EXISTED as the red line for the last 7 years or so! Before that the Englewood/jackson park was red and the dan ryan was GREEEEEEEEEEEEN! And i totally agree about rolling off your tongue. I will never call the Skoie-Swift yellow. NEVER I SAY! That is so stupid. And I like the name Ravenswood it sounds pretty unlike some other names. And who was on the thread a while back dissin' on all the names saying something like or "Dan Ryan", a dead mayor or something like that. GEEZ! Whoever Dan Ryan as a dead person is, the freeway is named after him so why not call the el that?
If they changed the Congress to be the Eisenhower but went back to the rest of the old names would the Nth Ward guy be satisfied? The name Forest Park has absolutely no meaning to me. NO MEANING AT ALL! I wil never call it that
If they changed the Congress to be the Eisenhower but went back to the rest of the old names would the Nth Ward guy be satisfied?
You obviously have me confused with somebody else.
I'd be satisfied with an easy-to-use transit system that gets me from Point A to Point B within reasonable levels of time, expense and hassle. If said transit system happens to be a work of architectural beauty and a source of civic pride, then so much the better.
I gladly traded in my roll in tokens in favor of a transit card, and I almost always use the color names for the L. This puts me in the company of most of the people in Chicago outside the walls of Graceland Cemetary. Only a small handful of people here still refer to the "Jackson Park L" or the "North-South Subway." These are usually the same people who were riding around on the L when the Cubs last won a World Series. Anybody who asks directions to the "West-Northwest" line today would be looked at as if they were daft.
Why? The same reason most people call O'Hare Airport by its real name instead of Orchard Field (luggage tags notwithstanding), and probably the same reason most people aren't pissed off about lights being installed at Wrigley Field. Things change, and life goes on. We're talking about a vital part of a major city's infrastructure here, not some artifact of the Museum of Science and Industry.
In reality, the color names are used somewhat interchangably with the original line names. It's not uncommon to hear people refer to the "Congress branch of the Blue Line" or the "Blue Line to Forest Park." For the most part, the color names have been seamlessly adopted in everyday usage by the vast majority of Chicagoans, and so far the sun has still risen over Lake Michigan each morning.
BTW, my use of the Roman numerals on the IRT was intended as sarcasm, to demonstrate the absurdity of mindlessly clinging on to relics of the past. Apparently it went over the head of at least one person.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well, I have to agree with you on most things, but lights at Wrigley? Some things are just too sacred to mess with. It just isn't the same, and in this case that's a bad thing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It is a good thing, it allows baseball games to be broadcast during prime time. Who's able to watch a baseball game in the middle of the day on Tuesday?
Lights were installed at Wrigley Field in 1941, but when the war broke out, the Cubs management had the light standards torn down and melted as scrap for the war effort, not unlike the fate of the "Zephyr" subway cars in New York City. IIRC, there was never a game played under those lights.
That was the "Green Hornet." The Zephyr surivived into 1961 IIRC.
That's not true. Only older Brooklyn residents use those names, if they do. Everybody else uses the letters.
Really? Not in my experience. By and large the names are still used by both young and old at different times. Any kid that can read will see signs saying Sea Beach, Brighton Beach etc. So they'll know which letter means which name. And they do use the names.
NO! I hate the fact that all trains make all stops. IF the CTA actually stuck to the schedule (and had reliable railcars) the A-B system wouldn't have any problems.
How did it work for all those years? Because of reliable equiptment. The goddamn 2600s screwed everything up. We should still be running 6000s!
The rebuild of the 2600's is well underway and hopefully they will be
better than new when they are done, except for the full width cab, but at least the glass on the left is still clear so you can see out the front of the car.
The 3200's seem to be doing quite well but time will tell. The 6000's were of course PCC cars. The other cars are decendants of the 6000's but sometimes new equipment is not an improvement.
One part of Abe's question wasn't answered. When the Congress Expressway was under construction, a connection was built between the two branches of the old Met "L" at Marshfield junction, allowing Douglas trains to proceed north on the old Logan Square tracks. At Lake Street, another connection was built to connect Met tracks to Lake. So, for a period Douglas trains in revenue service operated over Lake Street to the Loop, circling the Loop on the inner track. Originally, Met tracks to Logan Square and Humboldt Park crossed over Lake Street tracks. There was a two-level station, called "Lake Transfer." By the way, the last time I looked, a few years ago, the Met's bridge over the Milwaukee Road's tracks (now UP?) still existed, minus rails, serving as a signal bridge.
[ By the way, the last time I looked, a few years ago, the Met's bridge over the Milwaukee Road's tracks (now UP?) still existed, minus rails, serving as a signal bridge. ]
The bridge is still there, and still serves as a signal bridge. It spans about 9 tracks which are the combined leads to Ogilvie Transportation Center (formerly NorthWestern Station) on the UP (formerly C&NW) and to Union Station on the former Milwaukee Road.
-- Ed Sachs
"As to whether Douglas trains ever used the Lake Street L,
I don't think they ever did in revenue (passenger-carrying)
service. The Metropolitan system was built by a different
company than the Lake Street line and was operated separately
until about 1913 or so. The Met consisted of the Logan Square
branch, the Garfield Park branch, and the Douglas branch.
Logan Square trains proceeded along Milwaukee Avenue to
Paulina where they headed south, and Douglas trains came north
from 22nd Street along Paulina. They met the Garfield Park
Branch, where all three merged and proceeded into the Loop,
entering the Loop at Van Buren and Wells. Basically, the Blue
line and the old Met are one and the same, with the Dearborn-
Milwaukee subway replacing the Paulina L tracks and the Met's
L into the Loop."
For a little over four years, Douglas Park trains did reach the Loop over the Lake Street "L." Historically, as you note, Douglas Park was a Metropolitan Division line, entering the Loop via the same tracks as the Garfield Park line (and, until 1951, the Logan Square and Humboldt Park lines) between Marshfield Avenue and the Wells-Van Buren corner of the Loop. However, on September 20, 1953, in connection with construction of the Congress Expressway, the Garfield line was relocated in temporary surface trackage along the south line of Van Buren Street. This trackage had no connection to the Douglas "L" structure.
For about six months Douglas trains continued to use the old elevated parallel to the Garfield surface trackage. Then, as expressway construction progressed, this segment too had to be torn down, and on April 4, 1954 Douglas trains were rerouted to and from the Loop via the Lake Street line and a new ramp to the Paulina Street connector (the old Metropolitan line previously used by Logan Square and Humboldt Park trains). In addition, a short connecting segment was built connecting the portions of the Paulina Street trackage north and south of Congress Street.
Douglas trains used this route until June 22, 1958, when the Congress median trackage and its ramp up to the Douglas "L" structure opened. From that date, Douglas became part of the West-Northwest Line, through-routed with the Milwaukee Avenue (Logan Square) line via the Dearborn Street subway.
One track of the Paulina connector remains in service between Lake Street and the Douglas line, but is used only for equipment moves, having seen no revenue service since 1958.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Before the State Subway was opened, did all four NW tracks merge into the loop, did they merge into the same place or did one pair use an off-loop terminal?
Even before the State Street subway opened (1943), the four-track North Side "L" narrowed to two tracks north of the Chicago Avenue station. The Northwestern Elevated, and later Chicago Rapid Transit, had an off-Loop terminal, running two blocks east of the Merchandise Mart station to Clark and South Water, which was used for a limited amount of rush-hour North Side service until about 1948. The physical elevated structure was not removed until some time after 1960.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Er, Clark and _North_ Water.
Alan Follett
The now-out-of-service track that connects the Douglas "L" with the Lake Street "L" at one time was the Metropolitan's Logan Square and Humboldt Park line. There was a station at Madison Street, which would have been convenient to the Stadium. Douglas trains used this stretch when the Congress Expressway was under construction. The original Met "L" tracks from Marshfield junction east were torn down, and Garfield Park trains operated at street level in Van Buren Street. The ramp connecting the Douglas "L" to Congress was built and Douglas trains started using Congress tracks and entered the Dearborn subway. The out-of-service "L" track remains to connect West-Northwest to the rest of the system.
On the South Side, I think you are referring to the Stock Yards branch, which connected at Indiana Avenue. There was a single track loop in the stock yards, with stations named after packing firms. Trains circled the loop counter-clockwise. With the demise of the stock yards, the need for the "L" went away.
And yes, Chicago has lost "A" and "B" express service, along with a general deterioration of service. Too bad.
This discussion of Chicago rapid transit history has purposely avoided use of the moronic color line names.
This discussion of Chicago rapid transit history has purposely avoided use of the moronic color line names.
Why stop there? From now on I think all bus routes and IRT Division trains should be referred to in the form of Roman Numerals.
-- David
Chicago, IL
That part of Broadway should be known as the Bloomingdale Road. And 242nd Street is WRONG! It's just imposing a moronic numbering system on the original, inordinal Bronx street system. The way it was meant to be!
Avenue of the Americas,& International Boulevard to you too. Seriously colors are very useful for the illiterate, and certainly Can be more visible at a distance, but naming systems are just fine too. As to preserving earlier names, while those of us who remember Idlewild are decreasing, I for one refuse to countenance "Reagan" for National if only because I detest him.
"colors are very useful for the illiterate"
So someone who's just moved into Chicago to attend college, and therefore isn't familiar with the intricacies of old neighborhoods (Ravenswood), dead politicians (Dan Ryan), and road names that haven't been used for decades (Congress) are illiterate?!?!
Color names weren't instituted for the illiterate. They were created for people who aren't familiar with the city but still need to get around -- visitors (don't deride accomodating out-of-towners, as they're a major source of income for thousands of people) but also newly-arrived residents. Having lived in Chicago "long enough" to know the old names shouldn't be a shibboleth or "entrance exam".
Transit has to be made as convenient as reasonably possible, and color names are ONE (minor but relatively cheap) means to that end. Yes, many people, if not most people, would figure out the old naming system after a while. But the last time I checked, CTA can't afford to turn away A SINGLE PASSENGER by projecting a haughty "we don't need them if they can't figure out our city" attitude.
Why are there people who take the color names as a personal insult or a sign of the decline of civilization? CTA didn't come up with color naming with the intention and purpose of pulling your nose or the collective nose of railfans, they did it to make the system slightly more convenient for passengers. THE SYSTEM EXISTS FOR THE PASSENGERS, NOT FOR RAILFANS!!!!!! There are people on this board who hate "new" transit cars and want to go back to unairconditioned, non-MUDC (four conductors per train!), wicker-seated cars with unprotected fans on the ceiling and lighting that goes out when the train crosses gaps in the third rail. But while they would be in heaven riding these cars, most of the riding public, after the novelty and nostalgia wore off, would feel that riding such cars daily would be more like hell.
Some people hate Transit Cards or Metrocards, despite their clear convenience and flexibility, and want to go back to the "good old days" of tokens. Why not go back to the old tickets and chopper boxes? Heck, why not go all the way back, abolish paper money and those newfangled coins, and use huge stones for money like the inhabitants of Yap Island in the Pacific?
Things that work well should not be eliminated just because they are old. But just as equally, things should not be rejected just because they are new. The CTA, NYCTA, SEPTA, MBTA, or any other transit agency is not the operator of a rail museum, with the goal of preserving a glorious past in amber. They operate transportation systems that are supposed to be useful, efficient, and convenient for the commuting public of TODAY.
My thoughts exactly... You said it much better than I could have.
Thank you.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Unfortunately, railfans are not the most backward looking people in NYC. If they were, we wouldn't have spent billions renovating tenements in the 1980s (which are already re-deteorating). It is some of the City Planners who are against anything new.
Their motto should be Venice or Detroit. Venice is a successful museum city which, as as a result of its lack of redevelopment, is so expensive it is losing its entire non-beautiful people population. Detroit also has avoided new development, aside from the Ren Center, and is also losing its population -- due to falling values and abandonment. The result -- no change in either case. An environmental success story: less traffic!
If the preservationists planners had their way, Manhattan would be Venice and the other boroughs would be Detroit.
I've been somewhat of a nomad in my adult life, and I gotta tell ya, it's not difficult to see that they really did build some things better "in the old days." Take, for example, your average dwelling. The house I grew up in was built in 1929. It's wood-frame and wood siding, but inside, the floors are hardwood and the walls are lathe and plaster. There were decorative baseboards and door and window trim. And we're not talking bout some mansion. This was a regular 3 bedroom middle-class home. And I'd still rather live in a house like that than one of these six-figure suburban brand new "homes." Those poor, abandoned Detroit houses were simply built better than their new white-flight replacements. They're worth saving!
These days, comparable middle class houses have walls and doors that are paper-thin (I've seen elbows go through some with no more than a wrong turn), moldings that are made of cheap pre-fab wood "product," and floors that are often merely plywood covered by cheap carpet.
I think there is something to be said for preservation in light of the slick, machine-mass-produced world we live in now, if only to remind people that manufacturers and service-providers once actually cared about satisfying customers' future needs -- i.e. making a house that lasts, or really going after return business -- as well as convincing them that immediate financial savings is the most important reason to buy.
Railfans, I believe, tend to long for the "old days" not just out of a hatred of all things "new," but rather because they can see the deterioration of quality in general these days. I can see it, and I'm only 30 years old. Please pardon the bleeding-heart nature of this cliche, but, really, for every "modern" improvment, a little of our collective humanity gets lost.
AMEN BRUTHA! AMEN!
Wow, you certainly don't shoot from the hip. You gave that post quite some consideration before posting your reply.
Tom
COLORS ARE GOOD
I think the colors are excellent and are needed for people to get around
BUT WHY CAN'T WE HAVE THE FREAKIN' LINE NAMES TOO? WHat's so bad about a Green Lake anyway?
Yuck! That doesen't sound right. If you're going to call it by the colors, do that, but don't mix them. I'll just always call it the West-South or Lake-Englewood-Jackson Park.
People might mistake Green Lake for Lake Michigan.
Should that not be "V", as in Roman numeral #5?
Wayne
Color names weren't instituted for the illiterate. They were created for people who aren't familiar with the city but still need to get around
I agree to an extent BUT I would also hasten to add that using only colors or letters / numbers in signage to the exclusion of descriptions isn't good either. I remember the old entrance signs which went something like this: "Downtown Trains to Canal Street, South Ferry and Brooklyn via... etc. etc.. etc.." Someone could read the sign and have a general idea of where that service would take him. OTOH today's entrance signs only display route letters / numbers. You either need to enter the station to read a more detailed description on the platform or already be familiar with the map. I would NOT replace descriptions with color codes -- BOTH are useful and should co-exist.
That is exactly my point, as I've been saying in other postings. We should have BOTH! Colors and numbers/letter to help people get around, and line names to tell people where they're going! DUH, this is pretty simple. We can have BOTH! BOTH, I SAY! Oh, and could the guy from the Nth ward stop posting those roman numeral banners here? They're getting annoying. Maybe we need to use different languages, i.e.
Rouge, Howarde
or Brun, Ravenswoode
how IS THAT!
Oh, and could the guy from the Nth ward stop posting those roman numeral banners here? They're getting annoying.
As you wish.
-- David
Chicago, IL
ha ha ha
ROFLMAO! :-) Go, David! :-)
that was funny now show me the TRIANGLE THING as being the symbol for the D-line
It's called Delta.
Then there's:
Raudona - Howard
Geltona - Skokie Swift
Ruda - Ravenswood
Things that work well should not be eliminated just because they are old. But just as equally, things should not be rejected just because they are new. The CTA, NYCTA, SEPTA, MBTA, or any other transit agency is not the operator of a rail museum, with the goal of preserving a glorious past in amber. They operate transportation systems that are supposed to be useful, efficient, and convenient for the commuting public of TODAY.]
You made some good points, but I don't agree that railfans as a group are hopelessly backward-looking. You mentioned the way that some people bemoan the introduction of new cars and want to keep the old unairconditioned ones. I don't see that as a common sentiment at all. There's a world of difference between wanting to preserve some cars when a type is withdrawn from service, saving them from the scrappers for museum use and occasional fantrips, and wanting to keep them around forever in revenue service. Very few people with more than a modicum of knowledge about transit would favor the latter course of action.
You make the point that systems are not museums. But consider the fact that Chicago used to have a historical fleet for railfan trips, but now they are SELLING that fleet off! They say they don't have any more room at the Skokie Shops (the main shops in Chicago), because they want to build more parking for employees there. What a horrible excuse!
Shouldn't a transit authority at least keep a historical fleet?
I think we'd like them to, but ... put yourself in the position of "Mr. Average Taxpaying Citizen". Taxes are high, and there are a lot of projects competing for your tax dollars. Would you rather spend that money on transit improvements, school improvements, more police, or preserving old rail cars? I'm not sure what order your first three priorities would be, but preserving old rail cars will definately be last.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(CTA selling off historic fleet to make room for parking).
THAT is BAD. It shows no pride.
But it could be worse. In many NYC minority neighborhoods, school children are not allowed to play outside during recess because the teachers (who drive in from the suburbs) use the playground for parking.
It isn't just minority neighborhoods. It's wherever you have either LAZY teachers who don't want to walk the 1/2 block from on-street parking (specially reserved for their use, via permit!) or where there is insuffcient parking. I've seen only one of these situations. Guess which?
-Hank
(Where do teachers park in the playground)?
The Petrides School?
That school is the old CSI, which has more than enough parking for the teachers, and LOTS of space for the kids to roam.
-Hank
In Philly, there seems to be room for keeping some old cars around, such as the several PCC's at the Elmwood carhouse. Hopefully, the CTA is finding more loving homes for the cars. Occasionally, Philly's old stock ends up at places like the Rock Hill Trolley Museum in Rock Hill Furnace, PA.
It looks as if New York wants to get rid of part of its museum fleet, at least the units still owned by the TA.
Illinois Railway Museum already has a number of CTA L equipment, and acquired part of their private collection of streetcars. Perhaps they could spring for those two 4000s decked out in the historic brown and orange paint scheme.
I have 3 weeks of reserve army duty starting Monday. I will be off line Friday and Saturday. If possible I will try to be back sunday morning but i will be busy. Should anyone have anything to tell me please email me. It would be nice to get some email that someone took the trouble to confirm my statements.
--Mark
This has to be a SubTalk record - a response to a message posted over three years ago.
You know, this may be incredibly silly, but some of your witty comments really crack me up. Thanks for a good laugh.
Nope
Nobody can figger out what you are repling to until you read it, then the reply makes no sense. You wouldn't reply to the three year old converasation, would you?
I mean how many posts were made in the last 2 years by "Humans: The Budapest?" :-)
Hahhahhah. Yeah, I kinda wondered about that myself. I don't generally check the date of the messages. When I saw that name I figured it was someone who posts intermittently.
We're both on the same page on this.
I agree 100% that examples of classic transit cars should be preserved in rail museums, where the public can ride them or at least see them. I go to the Illinois Railway Museum twice or three times a year and never get tired of the place. And fantrips with classic transit cars operating on the present system are also a great idea -- I wish we had them in Chicago!
I also realize that most people on this board, and most railfans, don't have the extremist attitude that I was describing. When I referred to "extremist railfans" in my heading, I didn't mean that railfans as a group are extremist. I am proud to call myself a railfan, and I'm certainly not an extremist. (^: What I was doing was distingushing the extremist "freeze the system in amber" types from the majority of railfans -- there ARE some (a small few) adherents to the extremist view on this board.
I don't want to go that far back. Personally, I don't think the CTA turned away any riders when it didn't have the color names. It's not like we have a lot of branches or anything like that. Besides, knowing the names North-South and West-Northwest isn't too hard either.
I will NEVER call the lines by their color names.
And no, here in Chicago, I don't want to go back to 1920's era cars. It would be nice if the 6000s (from the 1950s) were still in service, though. I'd much rather have an open window than air conditioning in the summer. The 6000s were the mainstay of all CTA lines up until a few years ago, and I miss them.
And, yes, tokens are better than cards. Both can coexist, though. It's nice to be able to look in your pocket and see how many rides you have. With a card, you have to go to a station and use a machine to check the value. It's just much easier.
YOU would rather have an open window than an air conditioner. Your voice is not that of the majority.
Tokens, especially with cards as the main payment system, cost the transit company millions of dollars each year. Just because you like to use tokens better, doesn't mean the transit agency needs to spend money to allow you to continue your anachronistic habits.
In Washington and San Francisco, the value is printed on the card. Even less work is required to figure out how much fare you have.
Actually it is quite common for the fare gate to missprint or overprint or fail to print correctly. This is especially the case with high value and BART Plus tickets. The real problem with BART and any of the other fare by distance systems is the slow throughput at destinations, as well as feeling ripped off by the prices.
S.F. and D.C. need to have the amounts printed on the ticket more than NYC does, since they have distanca-adjusted and rush-hour adjusted rates. In New York, eveything is in multiples of $1.50, which is a lot easier to keep track of mentally.
In New York, you can swipe your refillable card at the machine which "refills" it and it will tell you the remaining amount.
Same thing in DC with the Addfare machines, and in SF. It's just that there, a ride can cost $1.15 going one way and $2.50 going back, if you get into rush hour, so putting the amount on the ticket is more important, so you don't have to go to the Addfare machines after sticking your card in the exit gate and having it spit back at you.
Actually, in San Francisco the station and date are all that's printed on the card, since it has a flat $1.00 fare. If you mean BART, much of the time the amount remaining on the ticket is unreadable; it's either printed on top of the previous value or in nonexistant ink. But you can still put the ticket in a ticket machine and it'll show you the amount, I personally prefer that to having to dig around in my pocket for a token.
There is nothing wrong with color coding routes. There are many different levels of understanding and the color recognition is very fast when identifying a train arriving or looking for a station.
I worked with a mobility trainer from a school one time who was training kids with disabilaties. She had some kids that used a card with the route letter on it and matched it to the letter on the bus stop sign and bus destination sign. They could match the pattern when comparing them but did not relate to them as letters of the alphabet.
The neighborhood names are part of the community spirit and should be preserved. Sometimes the terminal steet is more descriptive but lacks the charachter and the responsibiliy to history.
The remaming of the Comgress expressway was a reaction to the maming of the Kennedy Expressway and a demand for equal time from west side suburban residents. The keeping of the Comgress name on the rail line was Da Mayors way of protest, aand I mean Da Mayor not Rich.
It's too bad it's not still called the Congress Expressway; that name is still associated with the amount of destruction the expressway caused.
Seeing as how the election of eisenhower was the greatest tragedy to ever befall railroading, the Rail line certainly shouldn't honor him
Because he was the one who created the National System of Interstate and Defense Highways?
Highways are a much more versatile method of travel. You needn't observe the arbitrary timetables or a railroad company, you can take any detours you want, make stops when you want, and take as much time as you want.
The interstates were an important part of the development of our country.
National System of Interstate and Defense Highways
"The interstates were an important part of the development of our country"
Thats an entire new subject. They did do a nice job of moving freight to the roads from the RR The Idea was to provide intercity transportation. I large cities they were supposed to be for through traffic and not to replace transit and the local arterial system.
In practice they collect traffic and channel it into corridors, causing congestion at on and off points and on the system itself. Like putting cars into a funnel. Sometimes traffic moves better on the old city grid system. (The Alternate Routes)
They also opened up the suburbs to commuters. After the people went out to the suburbs the jobs followed and you ended up with places like Schaumberg, where "There is no There, There"
Some people are rediscovering the city though. Chicago and NYC have both seen some very nice redevelopment in the city itself.
It's about choices. What do you want out of life? A short L ride or a 2 hour car ride.
Why are you purposely exaggerating the length of a car ride and doing the opposite to the el ride?
The typical car ride is not anywhere near 2 hours.
How long is the "short" rail ride you describe?
It takes me 75 minutes to get to school by bus and two trains. It take 30 minutes by one car.
Roads go everywhere.
The typical car ride is not anywhere near 2 hours.
During a typical rush hour, it can take about 2 hours to get from the Chicago Loop to the far suburbs by car.
Living within the city, a typical L ride from the Loop up to Howard at the far north city limits will take about 30-45 minutes. The Red Line from the Loop to my neighborhood of Lincoln Park takes only about 10 minutes.
-- David
Chicago, IL
From my house to the loop in my car is 2:10 on a good week day. On METRA 10 min in my car 1:20 on the train. From my daughters in Lincoln Park 5 min walk 10 min L ride. Thats why she lives there not here.
Here I drive to go to the grocery, drug store, dry cleaners, to eat out (Limited Choices for eating) and everything else I need. She walks less than two blocks for anyhing she needs. Who's life is beter?
Oh yea she doesnt have a car payment or insurance to pay.
geez, a hornet's nest. I DID NOT ever say I was against MU, OPTO where appropriate, AC(I well remember when CTA showed off the first 2000 class cars--spent my lunch hour checking them out), or electronic fare control per se. Nor do I categorically disdain Automated Train Control or CBTC--I just live in an area where several of these systems have failed miserably when first deployed(and in SF MUNI's case still failing regularly) I am however dismayed at some redesignations of places, and routes etc. I certainly find organized street progressions(whether alpha or numeric) easier to navigate when I am in a new locale. As to the 'legibility' of the system to tourists-try Boston(Inbound and Outbound for the Red Line which magically switch in the CBD. If I stepped on toes with my comment about literacy, mea culpa, but I also APPLAUD the San Jose Ca Transit folks who do line schedules in English, Spanish, AND Vietnamese. Serve the customer! As to preservation yes a small representative fleet of earlier stock is an honorable thing. CTA should find the bucks. Besides sometimes tourists with $$$ come to see old trains too.
Oh, no! I thought I was the "extremist railfan" filled with "hatred and fear of change" because I made a parenthetical remark about CTA's route designations in a posting about the Chicago Stadium. I will admit to being opinionated, but extremist? Shades of Goldwater.
no you're not extremist this fartanoff guy should leave people like you alone. Dead politicians my ass! if the freeway is that then the EL should be that too. End of story.
That's an excellent idea. I wish I had thought of it. There's a certain symmetry in saying "To get to the Met Museum from Grand Central, take the IV, V, or VI train to LXXXVI Street."
Great for people just Roman around on the subway, but when 63rd St. opens the proposed Sixth Ave. V train and the Lexington Ave.-Dyre express V train would puzzle too many people.
I think that to make a transit system as easy as possible to use, The Agency should choose to go 100% with either color and new Route Names or old names and not both.
For Example, the CTA uses the new color codes and names, but old names such as Congress and Douglas are printed on maps and announced on trains. Being a railfan I know weather they say Blue Line transfer here, or Congress-Douglas-Ohare Transfer here.
The CTA Needs to tear down old signs and put up new ones. The A/B Skip-Stop signs are still up after 5+ years of not being used.
There are also old signs at Clark/Lake that say trains to 63rd/Dorchester and Lake trains to Forest Park.
New signeage needs to be put up in all stations. The automated train system where the train annonces the stations is alredy being tested on many of the lines and will replace to confusing announcements, hopefully with the new color-Codes and route names.
The Bottom line is go one way or the other, not both!
BJ
PS: For more on the CTA's new automated announcements go to Chicago-L.org and read it under newsbriefs, there are 2 articles.
In my opinion colors or letters are a great aid to helping people but should never replace line names. I do think colors or letters should help. Why? think about it. The two subways are obviously self-contained. Anyone who reads the route maps can see that. But how would anyone know that a Lake train turns into a Jackson Park train, as opposed to a Ravenswood or a Midway? They wouldn't. Having the colors lets people know what the train they are on will become. But Colors can never replace line names - in my pinion they should supplement them. When I lived in Chicago and rode the El me and my friends always said both (i.e. "we're catching the brown ravenswood train" or "we're gonna get on the red howard train to Wrigley"). I think colors are needed to show what routes the train will take. And in New York, besides, it would be impossible to read maps of lower manhattan if all of the lines were printed in Black or Blue or one color - there's too many of them! The simple fact is that people need colors AND line names. To go back to the Portland light rail system, all trains use the same set of tracks in downtown and are symbolized only by their destination or line name. All you see is a black board with "Gresham," "Elmonica," "Hillsboro," "Interstate," etc. But if Portland ever builds a second MAX route through downtown (for people who have been there, via new ramps off the steel bridge connecting to the 5/6th couplet near the Bus Terminal), it will be really Really REALLY confusing because someone who is new and gets on a train at the airport will not no where there train is going in downtown. At that time Portland will probably start using colors for its rail system too, alhtough this will be complicated by the fact the the bus routes are already divided into color sectors. So every time I'm on here you have people saying WE NEED LINE NAMES BECAUSE COLORS ARE MORONIC and then the other people saying WE NEED COLORS BECAUSE LINE NAMES ARE MORONIC AND HARD TO USE. Why can't we just get along with both??????
NO! Colors are horrible. As to how do you know where the train goes after Lake St.; trains USED TO say Englewood-Lake or Jackson Park-Lake. The newer designations are even stupider.
Colors are horrible.
Is your TV black and white only? Is everything you own black and white?
I'd rather have the old names. They should leave the A-B signs up just in case they get smart and decide to reactivate it. Some signs have had tape placed over the A or B designation.
Jackson Park line was supposed to go to Dorchester but it was never re-extended. This is, in my opinion, the WORST decision the CTA has EVER MADE! 63rd/Stony Island bus corridor now has more ridership than the entire Lake-Englewood-Jackson Park. It's the reason why Jackson Park-Englewood trains are never filled even close to capacity. 63/Stony Island was the single biggest passenger generating point on the South Side Englewood-Jackson Park.
Does anyone have photographs of the Bergen Street Cutoff on the 3rd Avenue El north of 149th Street Street. Also need photos of the following:
1) 3rd Avenue El 149th Street station as in inline station looking south.
2) Interlocking for Bergen Street Cutoff by 149th Street Tower.
3) Photographs of interlocking machine and model boards for 3rd Avenue El.
Just came back from Vegas the other day. They now have 4 seperate Monorail/rail systems going. The one at the Airport has 2 lines. Frm the Main Term. To Term 3, is a few years old, no changes. All above ground. The new one from the Main Terminal to Term D. Is fast, running both above and below ground. The older line between Ballys and MGM Grand, the real Monorail. They are talking about extending the North End later this year another 3/4 mile North to the Venetian, and eventually to downtown. There is a small one that reuns between the Monte Carlo and Belligio 1/2 mile, and one from the excallibur to the Mandalay Bay. I also checked out the NY NY. They do have a fake entrnce Marked Christopher St Station Downtown 1 and 9 lines. There is talk there at the NY NY about building some new rides there, one which will be like the old whip. (Spoke to Sales people) If they do, they mostlikely will paint the cars as NY Taxis and change the Roller Coster painting to subway cars. But that is also talk. Also in the Beltz Mall South of Town in the KB Toy store, bought myself a SF Muni Corgi Trolley PCC Marked F Line for $19.99 and a Santa Monica GMC TDH 5301 Marked Pico #7. They had a few other corgi Busses there, all less then 20.00. Rode Bart and SF Muni. Muni still has 5 PCCs in the Geneva Yards, waiting to be rebuilt and painted for the F Line, when they extend it to Fishermans Wharf in the Near Future. Since it wa s Sat. Bart was running 2 Trans Bay Lines. Colma-Pittsburg ran 10 cars, and Daly City-Plesanton. Bart was running 1 car Breda Cars on all lines, and used 4Cars on the F Market. SF Muni, PE, Ill Term and LA Transit Lines
Having nothing better to do with my life or time, the last two days have witnessed me studying the world from the RAILFAN WINDOW of the Q. Looking out of the window as the Q was heading over the bridge into Manhattan, I always cast a wistful eye to see if the Ave B & East Broadway Mack buses were still parked under the FDR. Before the train reached center span, I noticed what seemed to be several Red Birds appear on the bottom of the first large apartment building to the right of the bridge bordering on the FDR. At first, I thought that someone did a gigantic mural of the Red Birds. (For what reason, I don't know ) Perhaps I have watched too many hours of Mr. Willie's #7 Video. As the train is approaching the Manhattan end, I discover the cause of what I was seeing. ( I had not taken my early morning tranquilizer ) No, just joking.
The bottom two floors of the building had two large bands of red paint on them, and from the distance it just seemed to look like IRT Red Birds. I'm almost afraid to ask if anyone else has ever had that same take.
Hey Paul, is this what you see parked under the FDR?
Did you just take that picture Sarge?
This is hard to believe. The Ave. B Macks are rolling again. All is possible for those who believe.
Can you get a copy of this over to the guys on BusTalk? I've tired of hearing about the Vikings, the Flyers, and the Novas. It's a Mack Attack!!!
Hey Paul, that picture is from this site!! Go to BusTalk and click onto "More Bus Pags"
The Macks were always my favorite buses. I liked riding the B64 Bay Ridge-Coney Island route for the Macks, even though when I was 6 I didn't know they were Macks as opposed to GMs. I just liked 'em better--they seemed trimmer and straighter.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The bus company that passed in my neighborhood (East Meadow) as a kid, the Hempstead Bus Company had Macks while the Bee Line from Hempstead to Jamaica had GMC's. (They both of course also had fishbowls) So as a kid to get to the city if I didn't have the money for the LIRR would be:Mack from E.Meadow to Hempsteadold style GMC to Jamaica R1-9 to Manhattan on the "E" or "F".(Or R16 on the el, Chris) Now of course the Hempstead Bus Company route from EM to Hemp is Long Island Bus's N48,N49 and the Bee Line to Jamaica is the N6.
MAN! That is a dead neighborhood. Or should we call it adjacent empty apartmenthood.
Take it to Bus Talk. This is Sub Talk You guys should know better Jeff and Paul
hey bob--- let's warm things up in Hawaii. Are you seriously telling me and the Sarge to take our brief discussion of Mack Buses to Bus Talk, or were you just joining in the good spirit of our discussion?
I don't know exactly what Brighton Beach Bob had in mind, but I can tell you this. It might be a good idea if you picked up another handle. There are some people who pick their website nicknames and identify with it. Yours comes very close to be a complete copycat. I don;t mind if someone uses N or Sea Beach of some derivation of it, but if someone else used #4 Sea Beach Don, I would be a little put out. We may have to get a policy on that. Anyway, I'd contact #1Brighton Express Bob and straighten out this problem.
Thanks for the warning about handles Fred.
But when someone lectures me about whether it was
appropriate to mention Mack buses on SubTalk, I get
a little rattled. Especially coming from Bob, who
along with yourself, have expounded here on politics
and other non transit issues.
If I choose to identify myself as #1 Triplex
Brighton Express Paul, I am fully entitled to do so.
I have lived and travelled on that line for over 50
years. I hope my sense of self is strong enough
that I would not be too troubled if someone posted
as #1 R-40 slant Brighton Express Arthur or #1 R -32 Brighton Express Marvin or #1 R9 Brighton Express Elvis.
Carm Down Paul. If I knew it was you I never would have mentioned it. Fred took it too serious, and I already e mailed him privately. It was me also about Busses on the Bus Web, I know you are a Mack Fan. Ok. Back to Friendship. Bob
That was the Lower East Side, Humans.
This evening I took the Evanston Express (Purple Line) from Quincy/Wells to Fullerton. The train I was riding was using the automated announcement system. The car I was on, #2910, had a functioning PA system.
At Fullerton, I jumped on a Howard (Red Line) train for the trip to Belmont (there were trains bunched up on the Rav and Evanson). The automated PA announcements were working on that train also. The car #2719 (a rehab) also had functioning PA.
My assessment is the automated PA announcements are far better than those made by the crew. The crews, some of those could care less, have not been making audible announcements. There are some operators who do a terrific job, but most, don't announce or can't be understood.
My question is, if the responsibility of making announcements is taken away from the operators, will they be able to devote more attention to running the train smoothly?
-Jim K.
My question is, if the responsibility of making announcements is taken away from the operators, will they be able to devote more attention to running the train smoothly?
Don't hold your breath. The operator of the Purple Line train I was on this morning seemed to take perverse pleasure in slamming on the brakes at every station stop and curve between Fullerton and Chicago Avenue, and then going full-throttle until the next application of the brakes.
I suspect the T/O was actually trying to compensate for the automated announcement system, lest the Chicago L be mistaken for the people-mover at O'Hare.
-- David
Chicago, IL
5.4 million was spent on the automated annoucements. Money
instead that should have went to the Motormen for doing the job of
2 people.
Money that should have been used to pay conductors to work throughout the entire system.
'5.4 million was spent on the automated annoucements. Money
instead that should have went to the Motormen for doing the job of
2 people.'
But your union didn't do anything to stop it!
The issue is over and pasted history, and talking about the way things used to be, or how could they have been, is useless. The union could have tried block this in 1996, but it didn't.
Let me say, I miss the conductors on the trains. I miss 5 - 6 minute headways in off peak. I miss the A-B skip-stop service. But CTA allowed the service to deteriorate so badly that the passengers deserted in droves. The responsbility for that lies with ALL CTA employees - management and operating alike.
If the CTA is to prosper, the union and management must work together to provide safe, fast, and convenient service at a reasonable fare for their customer's. Treat customers well and they will return, and reward an organization with patronage.
Jim K.
Chicago
la la la! In an earlier thread i said motermen when i meant to say conductors. And not having the A-B service is just stupid. So if the trains don't run 5-6 minutes in the off-peak what do they run? 15?
Nickname for a cowboy motorman is a "shutoff king".
There's one Purple Line motorman in particular whose train I've been on a couple of times, who does a fantastic job of giving announcements. Besides giving the basics ("Please don't lean against the doors") in a friendly tone, he mentions bus and Metra connections, significant buildings/colleges/attractions/etc., and makes friendly jokes (though he has the tendency to repeat them).
Whenever the train slows down significantly or stops, he'll explain the problem as best he can, whether there's a train in front or a slow zone or whatever.
My question is, do motormen of this sort get to voluntarily override the automated messages whenever they want, or only in unusual circumstances?
My question is, do motormen of this sort get to voluntarily override the automated messages whenever they want, or only in unusual circumstances?
As I understand it, CTA employees who go above and beyond the call of duty in this fashion are usually dragged into the street and beaten into submission with a large stick by CTA management.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Motormen shouldn't have to make announcements in the FIRST place! There should be a conductor to do that job.
Right on!
BS. Motormen cost like 20 bucks an hour more! And that is reflected in either YOUR taxes or YOUR fares. I'd take automation and more service any day of the week. The coolest announcements are in SF in the MUNI METRO tunnel. A little computer voice actually says how long the trains will be til they get there and where they will be going. These people who want motermen, as one person said earlier, would you like to go back to wicker seats?
....would you like to go back to wicker seats?
Actually, they WOULD. They would also go back to no air conditioning and other third world conditions on the subway and El (or L).
That's what I thought
And spur-cut bull and pinion gears, pneumatic doors, etc., etc.
Amen to that!
Here's an update:
It happened on 1/31/00 at 21:30.
A 10 car came in to get cut 2/2/6, and the 2nd duce overhung the dwarf signal at 69 switch on 57 track.
(O'hang: The M/M's cab is directly over the dwarf, blocking vision. The first axle is behind the asspciated insulated joint, making it possible to reverse a switch in front of the train.)
Car 3516, operated by a T/O with 7 years in title, was in this positon. He looked ahead and saw 28 homeball was clear. He also called the tower for permission to proceed.
There was a mis-communication of some sort in the tower and he rec'd permission to go.
He rolled through the closed switch without observing it's position, and---VOILA!!
A couple of rods were bent, the repair was complete in about 2 1/2 hours.
NOTE: Switch run-throughs happen occasionally on ths ladder.
I just rec'd an e-mail stating that there was an A-Div crew involved with this one.
On my travels thru-out the system I continually notice incandescent lights merrily burning right next to the flourescent lights that are supposed to have replaced them. Why does the TA continue to replace the incandescent bulbs. This seems to me to be a huge waste of money.
Any thoughts.
Peace,
Andee
dung is also waste,but if aged it becomes manure, this manure promotes
growth, growth is good and desirable. so once again
waste like dung stinks, but in the long long run you must follow the worst logic and come out smelling like a Rose.
It probably costs more to remove them then the electricity it requires to let them burn. They eventually burn out.
Yes, they do burn out. But, they continue to replace them.
Peace,
Andee
Long ago they used corks or rubber stoppers to replace the bulbs, there must be a circut breaker somewhere>
There are whole MEZZANINES full of incandescent lights on the Queens Boulevard IND - in fact, all the local stops from 65th Street to 67th Avenue are incandescently lit. And let's not forget in the Bronx, the
Fordham Road station - no mezzanine anywhere is darker than THAT (except the closed part of Bedford Park Blvd).
Wayne
You can say that again.
Are yuo reffering to the clusters of bulbs-usually 5 together? These are track circuit emergency lights they are supposed to go on if (locally supplied)A.C.fails.Also I`ve noticed they seem to have been manually turned on in some elevated stations probably to offset the dimming of the flourescent lights in cold weather.
There is also what I call Board of Ed logic,I once asked a janitor in my old school why he`d always put large wattage bulbs on staircase landings,he pointed to the window and said "you gotta have extra light,there`s a window there". Board of Ed logic!
No, I am refering to the sockets that are built into the station ceilings.
Peace,
Andee
Some of the old lights seem to have been retained as emerg.ltg.These in place of the 5 bulb clusters.
Also recently I`ve seen that during the electrical rehab of the 86th st station on the A,old long unused where all reconnected for a long time to provide temporary lighting when the existing flourescents were replaced.The old sockets were later removed and boxes capped.
This may account for some of your sightings (I`ve seen this too)In other cases light levels were probably measured and found to be inadquate w/out the incands. If you`ve noticed,most stations that hav been rehabbed in the last 10 or so yrs have both platform edge and mid-platform flourescents.
http://www.nydailynews.com/2000-02-01/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-55371.asp
Nowhere does the proponent say:
1) How this "one-seat ride" train will be able to run on the dissimilar LIRR and AirTrain rights-of-way and
2) Where the capacity on the LIRR tracks will come from.
I've heard about this project here at City Planning. It has a NYC go-ahead.
Evidently for just a few tens of millions more, the Airtrain can be made to split off in two directions -- west toward Manhattan on the LIRR, and east into Jamaica. (The morons should have had the Airtrain swing around Jamaica and enter the LIRR station heading west, so a single train could serve both destinations -- oh well).
The plan is to have the train run during non-rush hours only, unless and until LIRR to GCT is built, at which time there will capacity to go both ways, and perhaps to GCT as well.
The Airtrain is supposedly being built to allow a one seat ride -- except for tight curves. So any thorugh train would have to have a series of short segments.
I hope it happens. The subway is best for LaGuardia, because it is a "briefcase airport" and it is close. You need an express ride from JFK, because almost everyone there has lots of luggage and it is far away. If we could have both by 2010, it would be great.
I think we need to read between the lines. The plan promises a "one-seat" ride, and that'd exactly what they're planning to provide:
One seat, traveling back and forth between JFK and Penn Station. Very fast, but the lines for it are likely to be very long. ;-)
This was a very S-M-A-L-L article way back on page 58 by Joe Mahoney & Pete Donohue.
I found a couple of interesting points:
1. This is a Empire State Development Corp. "request of expression of interest ...". That's a long way from a plan or a project.
2. It's a Port Auth. thing to operate on MTA (LIRR) tracks. Now we all know these two groups don't like each other. Add to this that NYC wants it should mean that it will never see the light of day.
Well. I wish them good luck in any case.
Mr t__:^)
Last night while riding home on R-44 "A", one of those chinese fellas
came into my car hawking toys, batteries and Krazy Glue, one dollar, one dollar, one dollar, one.
However, he walked thru the cars on an R-44! I don't know how he did
it. Anyone want to reveal the secret?
Either, (A) He had a key, (B) The end doors were left unlocked by the crew, were the blue indicators on outside the train? or (C) He had magical powers.
Peace,
Andee
B"H
Is that what those blue lights are?!? I was wondering about that.
instead of wondering abot blue lights how about worrying about the info i sent you about where you live (die)
B"H
pardon me?
i will email you privately in more detail
i will email you privately in more detail
Yes, end door indication.
CHECK THE RUBBER MOLDING ON THE DOOR FRAME, i'LL BET IT LOOKS LIKE ITS MISSING, OR CUT AWAY.thEY USE A KNIFE OR HOOK LIKE SCREWDRIVER TO LEVER THE LATCHING DEVICE UP OR DOWN. BINGO YOUR THRU.
(B) sounds like the most possible explanation there.
If the lighted yoyo spins at a certain RPM, the end doors are automatically unlocked for anyone to pass through.
--Mark
On my F train this morning the blue lights were blinking on the front car, the CTO cars and atleast 2 others, so its not that hard to walk through at least some of the cars, this was they can sell more bateries during the 7 minutes it takes to get from Queens plaza t Roosevelt.
L. O. L., that's rich!
Peace,
Andee
That is a rarity. That car as well as the R-46 and R-68/R-68A. I have seen a few open cars of each. If one end door is open, then to get to the next car I guess they push a button next to the other end door. But I wouldn’t try this at home.
Do the 44's/46's still have a storm door release on the outside??
I know the inside one was removed. Kids used to jump between cars and then use the release to get into the cars.
R-44's do, I see battery Bennie use it every evening on the A's
Yes they still do have the Storm release on the outside between the cars.
He has a key. I've seen this guy before.
Do the R-46's still have that LOUD alarm that rings when the end doors are opened?
No
As a follow-up to the recent Gerritsen Beach thread....
I've been there, its one of the (many) hidden jewels of NYC.
ANYWAY, can anyone answer this question..... I have an old US Army Corps of Engineers shoreline map that shows a petro chemical plant (Gulf Oil?) somewhere around the vicinity of Gerritsen Beach. Of course the shoreline was much different then (1920s) than today, so its tough for me to pinpoint the location. The map showed an intraplant railway. Does anyone know anything about it? Was it standard gauge, steam or electric? Do any remnants still exist? Where was the plant (probably just a distribution facility) in relation to today's street grid?
THANKS to any respondents....
I don't have specific knowledge, but I do know that lots of heavy industrial facilities were removed to build the Belt Parkway which, contrary to popular belief, didn't just run through open land. If something like a tank farm disappeared, that's the most likely place it went.
Interesting - Thanks, Larry.
THERE ARE A FEW BIG OIL TANKS ALONG THE SHORE JUST INSIDE THE GATES OF FLOYD BENNIT FIELD(NOT THE TANKS USED TO REFUEL PLANES NEAR THE CONTROL TOWER)
I remember seeing an old map somewhere that showed a planned ship/rail terminal-port for Brooklyn in the area that we now refer to as Floyd Bennett Field. The map is dated -- I believe -- 1918 so this was before the aviation era.
The plan was to make an alternate shipping center to Manhattan's Westside and Bayonne and Elizabeth.
I for one am glad this never happanned as it would have polluted the waters of the Jamaica Bay/Gateway area beyond what it has already experienced.
The route (so far as memory serves): the rail line in question was to have branched off of the LIRR Bay Ridge near Utica Ave. and run down Paedegat Ave. to Ave. U. There the line turned south at the present location of Kings Plaza then straight down Flatbush to the Floyd Bennett area.
Doug aka BMTman
Have there been any lately that have not made the newspapers?
Any derailment of a revenue service train will garner at least some media coverage.
The last one I remember was the July 4th 1997 derailment of an A train passing through the 145th St. interlocking. IIRC, somebody in the 59th St. tower goofed.
"IIRC, somebody in the 59th St. tower goofed."
Well then you don't remember correctly. A signal maintainer on the scene goofed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think any ONE in particular was culpable for the loss of R44 #5282 (ex.#140) back in July of 1997. It just split the switch and went ballistic in the tunnel.
There was major one after that. July 15, 1997 on the #2 line north of President Street where a #2 train's 10th car picked the switch and hit the girders. #8884 was the car lost in that incident.
I don't know if there have been minor derailments since then. Does that incident the other day at Utica Avenue on the "A" count as a derailment?
wayne
An SIR train hit the ground early last week.
Details: http://www.silive.com/news/advance/0125derail25.html
BTW, that picture is of the rear car of the derailed train. It's assumed that by 'front wheels' they mean the third axle of this car.
-Hank
IRT 1 line.. Spring 1989..
1 train jumps the tracks at 168th..
forgotten?
I remember about 5 years ago, there was a GO mandating that only 1 tube of the Clark St. tunnel can be used by the #2 in both directions at night. At the switch just south of Wall St, where uptown/downtown train were to switch to their respective tracks, 3 trains on 3 consecutive nights derailed at the same spot. All were minor incidents which didn't hurt people or destroy equipment. But the GO had to be cancelled after the 3rd. derailment because that little used switch was totally unsafe to operate. I think it's been replaced since.
I dont think it was 3 consecutive nights. I think that it same day but a week after each other. This was a few years ago..........
3TM
I forgot about the President St incident. I wasn't aware that the incident on the A actually destroyed a subway car.
What happens to the remaining 3 R44's in the set if the fourth was destroyed?
every morning, while riding the "Q" train to work, when we get to the other side of the manahttan bridge, i see a opening of the tunnel where a track couldlead to. you can see where a track would go. but i dont understand why this isnt sealed up, or used to connect southbound broadway exp service to connect over the bridge? If anyone ever sees it, you can';t miss it. It got all the light s on and garbage spewed around it. what is it ?
You're seeing the tracks leading to the Canal Street station, which was the route of the bridge trains before the Chrystie Street Connection. I was looking out the front of a Q yesterday to see if there was enhanced lighting on the Manhattan side, when I observed that there is more lights on on that unused section, than there is on the tracks leading to Grand Street.
The second part of your question is interesting. Why can't they use that track for southbound Broadway trains to use the Manhattan Bridge, maybe as an alternative to a blocked Montague Street Tunnel, or perhaps to provide service in the event of a major blockage of 6th Ave service at Grand St. I don't know what the track alignments are around Canal Street, but it would seem like that at least the southbound Broadway connection would not be all that disruptive.
If you're a regular front window looker, have you noticed that band of red paint around the first floors of the first large building on the Manhattan side? It looks like a Red Bird from mid span.
dont see any tracks there. and wasnt there ever a idea to connect the system from dekalb av to york st on the "f" line?
(Connect to F)
Yes there was such a plan, but it was never funded. That's why DeKalb riders are stuck with the Manhattan Bridge.
But lets get back to the point. Given how unreliable the bridge is, and the fact that half of it has been out of action for 18 years, how hard would it be to put in crossover junctions to allow the pre-Christie options, or H tracks to 6th Avenue? Sure a flying junction to allow efficient service to both trunk lines from either bridge tracks would be costly, but how about service to one trunk line through a crossover?
...how hard would it be to put in crossover junctions to allow the pre-Christie options...Sure a flying junction to allow efficient service to both trunk lines from either bridge tracks would be costly...
A full junction at grade does not limit capacity. There is no reason to go the the extra expense of using flying junctions.
A junction at grade would surwly limit the maximum capacity if its being used during rush hours.
A diverging double track junction at grade does not limit maximum capacity, at rush hour or any other time.
One possible fly in this ointment is the subject of grade itself. The abandoned tunnel did once connect the north tracks to Broadway. However, one has to ask if the grade in the area was changed to connect under Chrystie St. If so the two tunnels could not connect, since tracks must be on the same grade to cross each other.
I believe the grade was altered - seems to me someone posted the difference in level a few months back. Perhaps they'll see this thread and confirm that information (or prove me wrong - won't be the first time if they do!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Of course it does. The grade crossing junction at B'way Myrtle is a perfect example. M trains going to Myrtle must cross in front of both the J express and all Manhattan bound J trains. This takes time for the various signals to set, and then clear. More time = less maximum capacity. If the M used a flyover to get from Myrtle to Central, more trains could be run.
Don't forget, when the Dekalb Ave. interlock was reconfigured in the late 50's, to remove all the crossings at grade, maximum capacity was increased.
My statement was qualified to a 2-track "Y" junction, e.g. Lenox between 135th and 145th Streets.
Of course it does. The grade crossing junction at B'way Myrtle is a perfect example. M trains going to Myrtle must cross in front of both the J express and all Manhattan bound J trains. This takes time for the various signals to set, and then clear. More time = less maximum capacity. If the M used a flyover to get from Myrtle to Central, more trains could be run.
Let me amend my previous statement because the Bway-Myrtle jct is essentially a 2 track Y junction.
The following is required to achieve maximum capacity through the jct.
Arrange the schedules so that the following happens: only J trains approach the jct from either direction at the same time and only M trains approach the jct from either direction at the same time. This eliminates all contention problems between dissimilar services approaching the jct at the same time.
Another aspect of timetable compilation is the correct timing of services which converge or diverge at a flat junction...a branch train which crosses a main line in one direction is booked over the junction at the same time as a branch train in the opposite direction...by this means it is possible to maximum track capacity... From "How the Underground Works, P.E. Garbutt, London Transport, (c)1966.
Hold it: there's nothing wrong with an at-grade junction here. There isn't even a frequent-switching problem or a matter of coordinating trains.
Larry's initial suggestion was to provide a crossover so that ONE trunk line could be fed all the time, using ONE pair of bridge tracks (whichever tracks happened to be in operation at the time). Specifically, the H tracks on the bridge could be connected to Chrystie Street, so that trains to/from Sixth Avenue could use either pair of Manhattan Bridge tracks, depending on which pair was operational. In this plan, there would still be no service to Broadway as long as one pair of bridge tracks was out of service. Also, the switches would only be thrown when construction shifts sides on the bridge, which only happens every several years.
This would allow us to keep the routings we have today (at least until all bridge tracks are in operation, at which point everything goes back to normal). No trains would ever cross in front of each other.
Reconnecting the "A/B" tracks to the Broadway Line would be possible, though it would probably involve a grade crossing (like 142nd Street Junction on the Lenox Avenue Line) in order to keep access to the Sixth Avenue Line. This would markedly reduce the capacity of the "A/B" tracks. Even if it could be done without a grade crossing, the constant switching movements would reduce capacity.
David
Reconnecting the "A/B" tracks to the Broadway Line would be possible, though it would probably involve a grade crossing (like 142nd Street Junction on the Lenox Avenue Line) in order to keep access to the Sixth Avenue Line. This would markedly reduce the capacity of the "A/B" tracks. Even if it could be done without a grade crossing, the constant switching movements would reduce capacity.
Not true - there is no reduction in capacity. There may be a reduction in NYCT's capacity to operate trains at their previous rate BUT there is no reduction in the track's capacity to handle the trains.
February 2nd, 2000
Dear Simon:
The Manhattan Bridge will switch sides around March 2001. The B and D trains from Upper Manhattan and The Bronx will terminate at 34th Street. The B, D and Q trains from Southern Brooklyn will run up Broadway to 57th Street-7th Avenue, with some trains continuing to Queensbridge if possible. If they do, the B will be relettered to T and the D will be relettered to U or W.
James Li
If I were King, I would summon Merlyn and order him to connect the tunnels from the Cortland St station thru the WTC to the Chambers St
station. Fly to Dekalb ave and connect to the York st Station. Then
head to the 57th St Station and extend the local tracks under Central Park to the layup tracks between 72nd and 81st Streets ,coming from beneath the existing tracks .Then back to Court st Station , evict the museum and connect the "H" line to the Montigue tunnel, this would give a True King the flexibility he needs to send forth his minions to do his bidding. So it is said, so it is written , so it shall not be.
James:
There will be no letter change, trust me. The TA doesn't have enough cars to implement a rerouted Manhattan Bridge service plan as of yet.
Think 1986-88. 2 D's, 2 B's and a shuttle to Grand.
Why no letter change? Why have the confusion of two B's and two D's? Last time we had two B and D services they kept using the orange B's and D's on Broadway as well as the yellow. That was very confusing. Why doesn't the MTA think about these things?
Maybe they'll realize the error of their ways and call the Grand Street shuttle the V train and it could continue through the 63rd Street tunnel to Queens Blvd.
To Simple for the TA do do something like that
I rode the PATH train to Newark in January. Whenyou reverse the direction at Newark, I was so surprised you have to pay an extra fare! Couldn't they just build a free transfer path that connects the SOuthbound platform and the northbound platform at Newark?
James Li
I would think that the demand for that would be quite low... Anyway they give free rides from Harrison to Newark, so perhaps they feel as if they're giving away enough of a bargain! I'm assuming the fare is still $1 (?).
Recall that Penn Sta Newark was really designed with the Pennsy and Lehigh Valley in mind, not the H&M, which once had its own distinct terminal in Newark.
I think the real question is why doesn't PATH go to Newark Airport? But that is perhaps somewhat rhetorical(!).
In a way we're lucky PATH survived. The story I always heard was that Mayor Lindsay basically forced the PONYA to take over the H&M in the 60s in exchange for the street closures they needed to build the World Trade Center. Some planners in the 60s thought the best thing would have been to use the H&M tracks as the 6th Ave Express subway and abandon much of the New Jersey segment. This was, of course, before the Aldene Plan boosted PATH ridership from Newark and gave it a new lease on life.....
Anyone have more or better info?
Early on in the life of the p.a. ,the George Washington Bridge was supposed to have it
As for using the path along 6 ave , they are built to IRT spec,s
too narrow, not high enough for div B rolling stock, see Fantasy Fantasy 02/01/2000 OLDAN
Early on in the life of the p.a. ,the George Washington Bridge was supposed to have it
Since we're on the subject of Airport extensions? Why not turn the N train east from the present terminal in Astoria to serve La Guardia??
That plan already exists, but City Council Speaker Peter Vallone of Astoria has said that will only occur over his dead body. If Vallone is not elected Mayor, it could happen.
its been mentioned in all the talk of the JFK connection, it would be alot less work then the JFK RR
ALl non-airport construction/engineering funds are in the 2000-2004 MTA Capital Program. Of course, the connection might be made from Astoria Blvd rather than Ditmars to avoid Mr. Vallone.
A connection from Astoria would be bad, since the same train couldn't serve Ditmars and the airport. Service would be diminished to both places. Unless they ELIMINATED service to Ditmars, and had Astoria residents walk to Astoria or take a bus.
Yeah I have maps of Queens and the only feasible extension would be to connect east from Ditmars, and have a couple of stops in between (such as the Rikers Island access road). What does this Vallone guy hate so much anyway?
(Why Vallone is against the extension)
The extension would push the elevated train past two blocks north of Ditmars, reducing the quality of life for those residents. In addition, some Astoria residents have asserted that either the entire Astoria line should be torn down and replaced with a subway, or tough luck for the aiport extension. That would cost billions.
A sensible and fair minded person would agree to the best route, but insist that his constituents be paid off and compensated. But that's not what he is doing.
The two platforms are not on top of each other. The platform Wesstbound is over track 2 of the Amtrak NJT level. There is a an employee stair but no customer free transfer. The only time turnstiles are used on Platform H is when reverse running due to track work is needed and then the Westbound Fare Control at Harrison is also utilized.
PATH is ***not*** built to IRT specs-- PATH cars (according to their Trainmaster who I met in october) are slightly shorter and have different trucks than IRT cars and have a different profile. An IRT car will not fit in PATH due to shape problems, but a PATH car can run in the IRT. (yes- and also the IND/BMT with gap fillers.) This came up when the question of new cars came up and PATH volunteered this info.
When you exit PATH from Platform H a ramp connect to tracks 3/4, a ramp connects to track 5, and two stairways connect to track two. On weekends, Platform C (the side next to track 2) is not used and doors open only on Platform B (the side next to Track 1). The employee stairway conencts only to Platform C. Stairs and escalators connect to the main station waiting room (near McDonalds) and the Gateway Skybridge.
when the h&m was run by the PRR they used paper tickets for the part of the trip from journal square and newark. (the ticket windows are still there in the concourse by the bus lanes)tokens where used in jersey city and new york. if you had a newark ticket they punched at the gates or ticket booths. i remember the fare was $.40 from/to newark, $.30 from jersey city. when the pa took over the fare DROPED to $.30.
I remember when on the H&M between Harrison and Journel Square used to come by and punch your ticket like the regular railroad. I don t remember what they did Newark Bound
Couldn't have been Lindsay...the Port Authority took over the Hudson Tubes in 1962, and Lindsay was elected in November 1965. Wagner, maybe?
David
Why the PATH Will not go to Newark Airport. because NJ Transit will not make money, that is why they are building the station for NJ Transit to connect to the Airport Monorail. Lehigh Valley never went to Newark, they used to switch locomotives between Penn Station and Newark in Jersey City
But, I've seen photos of LV steam engines at Newark Penn Station.....
The switch replacement at WTC is making the E replace the C south of 50th Street-8th Avenue and the A and B replacing the C north of 59th Street-Columbus Circle. Now there is no direct local service on the upper level of the 50th Street-8th Avenue station. Why didn't they make the A local between 59th Street-Columbus Circle to 34th Street-Penn Station , and have it switch back to it's normal route south of 34th Street-Penn Station? Why didn't they reroute the E to Church Avenue via the F line south of Jay Street and keep the C running? They can also have the opportunity to run the E express to Church Avenue.
James Li
The Cranberry St. tunnel cannot handle the capacity from the A, C and E lines during rush hours. One train had to go, and it was the lesser used C line. As for not running it to Church, the Culver express tracks from Smith/9th to north of Bergen St. are still unusable because of last year's fire in the signal room. Besides, you think it's wise to introduce a new express service, only to take it away 4 weeks later?
How were the culver express tracks damaged at Bergen street as a result of the fire last summer? Just curious
db
Electrical Fire in the Tower basicly. Only a patch job was done to get service back. There was lenghtly posts here and someone with more knowlege will jump in.
The tracks weren't damaged, but the signal and interlocking machines were destroyed in the fire. Only partial use of this interlock is possible. The switches that bring the F train up from the lower to upper level are locked into place, only allowing local service. No train has used the express tracks at Bergen to Smith/9th in nearly 9 months.
Why don't they repair it? For that matter, why have so many perfectly useful express tracks and not use them? It isn't because people wouldn't benefit from their service. The MTA won't build more subways in order to relieve congestion and they won't run express trains on places that would benefit from them even during rush hour.
From Page 34 of the MTA Capital Program 2000-2004 proposal:
"A pilot project is also planned to test solid state interlocking (SSI) controls near the Bergen Street station ($64 million). Temporary controls were installed after a fire at that site in 1999. Permanent replacement is required, and the SSI will provide the agency with operating and maintenance experience to determine whether future interlockings will be conventional electro-mechanical or solid-state."
The project is expected to go to contract in 2001, assuming, of course, that the capital program is approved.
David
If the express tracks are used, then there wouldn't be enough F trains to stop at the locals.
Speaking of split switches, updated information signs at the route punches at 47/50St 6th Ave have been posted. Just in case your T/O gets a brain cramp there are now signs staing in words as well as pictures of what the signal should look like for the correct destination of their train.
I guess they just closed the tower too soon...
So far comments have not been added, but the last one for the F train on the local track (Green Over Green) had the following written accorss "Route Guide For Dummies"...
Why do the Yellow flashing light signify on the sides of trains, they are usually on the 2nd or 3rd car from each end?
I believe flashing yellow light on Divison A is an open Emergancy Brake Cord Cover, Solid yellow on Div A or B is a motor light. Red lights are door guard lights and blue are storm door (end door) lights, if their blue the doors are unlocked.
That leaves the Head Lights and the EOT markers or tail lights (End Of Train if it was a Railroad) to round out the lights on subway car exteriors.
They signify that the TA wasted a bunch of money making up these
TACKY covers to go over the emergency cords. It comes complete
with a piercing alarm. Right general idea, terrible execution.
A very sloppy job, covering the car numbers in many cars, and
the covers fail to stay latched closed causing endless false alarms.
Actually, the yellow flashing light signifies that the emergency brake cord was ACTIVATED (pulled) in that car. Whoever resets the cord is supposed to reset the flashing light as well, but it usually gets forgotten in the rush.
Oh, I didn't know that. I thought the same microswitch that
detected the cover open and sounded the alarm activated the
light. Where is the reset for der blinkenlight?
I have noticed that as trains depart certain station a beep is heard from each end of the train and seems to be of the same pitch and location as the brake cover alarm. This happens on north bound 6`s departing 77th st,is this some sort of test transmitted from something in the tunnel?
What is the pronuciation of Grosvenor here in DC?
Grosvenor is pronouced = "GROVSNOR" = Grosvenor!
I know becuase I used to live in Montgomery County MD for a while.
Trevor Logan
According to my experience riding Red Line, it pronounces "Grovner."
Chaohwa
Moreover, Grosvenor is very hard to pronounce. No wonder the pronounciation is simplified to "Grovner".
Chaohwa
Yes, I had wondered about that when I was preparing my move from NYC to Bethesda, MD. On my was home on the first day at the new job I boarded a Red Line train the was terminating at Grosvenor. Until then I though Bowie (BOO-IE) had an unusal pronunciation. While we're on the topic Bethesda is a bit strange too, but a great place to live.
Wayne
Bethesda means "house of mercy" in Hebrew (it's amazing what you can learn on Jeopardy!).
I believe the biblical/Hebraic spelling and pronunciation of Bethesda is "Bethsaida". We have a town here on Long Island called "Bethpage" and I think it's named after a town either in Israel proper or on the West Bank called "Bethphage". Next time I'm at the retreat house I'll look for it on the big map of Israel and the Holy Land they have up on the Terrace Room wall.
Wayne
From what I recall from my visits to D.C., "GROVE-nor". It's a British thing, like Worcestershire ("wooster") or Devonshire (DEH-vuhn-sheer). (^:
There's a main street on the far north side of Chicago called Devon. But its universally pronounced "deh-VAHN" and the story goes that the Irish streetcar conductors of the late 19th and early 20th Century refused to pronounce the street name in the style of the hated British so they intentionally mispronounced it. In those pre-radio days, it was the only "official" pronunciation that most people heard and it stuck. Mind you, the street is actually named after Devon, PA (many of the east-west streets that start in Edgewater and Rogers Park were named by the developers after the Main Line suburbs of Philadelphia) and not directly for the British Devon. Oh, well.
Then there's deceptively-simple Noyes, a station on the Purple Line here in Chicago. I say its "No-yez". My sister swears that it MUST be pronounced like the word "noise." I've heard the CTA conductors and operators do it both ways.
And don't even get me started on Roosevelt (separate subway and L stations at Roosevelt Road, originally 12th Street, in Chicago). I say that the double "o" is there for a reason and that the first part of the name rhymes with "lose," thus ROO-suh-velt. My sister (yet again!) ignores the double "o" and insists that it's ROH-suh-velt, starting off like the word "rose".
Speaking of Chicago streets, I'm surprised you didn't mention "Goethe", pronounced several different ways by street car conductors and bus operators on Clark Street.
Moving on to Brooklyn, I've often wondered about "Schermerhorn", as in Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the A, C (E), and G lines. I hear "sker-MARE-horn", and that doesn't sound right.
[Moving on to Brooklyn, I've often wondered about "Schermerhorn", as in Hoyt-Schermerhorn on the A, C (E), and G lines. I hear "sker-MARE-horn", and that doesn't sound right.]
Supposedly, the correct pronunciation is Skimmerhorn.
I keep hearing "Skerm-a-horn", never "Skimmer-horn" or "Skerm-er-horn". And they left it OFF of the wall at the IND station, electing to put up just "HOYT". Perhaps they figured they'd run out of letters would have spacing problems (like they did at Greenpoint Avenue - they truncated THAT to "GREENPT"). Funny, at Union Turnpike-Kew Gardens the entire name is spelled out - "UNION TURNPIKE". And at Bedford Park Blvd in the Bronx - the "PARK BLVD" is , of course, missing. They seemed to tend to short captions at some stations and long ones at others. Chambers Street IND before the GOH was "H AND M". Now it's "CHAMBERS" (ad infinitum) at the "A" platform and NOTHING at the "E". Even the two colors are different - Concord Grape and Blue Violet.
Wayne
The "H&M" blocks on the wall could have easily been changed to "WTC" to reflect the new aboveground occupants when they did the restoration work at Chambers. Both would have taken up the same three-tile space, so there would have been no need to alter the existing pattern.
please lets not forget" No can do it "instead of" North Conduit" Anenue. Which is part of the Aquaduct Station name.
Yes, but we're discussing IND tile. Aqueduct-North Conduit station is not only elevated, but was formerly a LIRR station before 1956. The only tile there would be in the foyer/stationhouse.
Wayne
The 1936 tile which adorned the Chambers Street station wall had seen its day. The prune/plum tile band had been patched in various places with mauve, blue-violet and even blue. The white tile had lost its shine to track dust and grime, and it had fallen in places. It had gotten quite ratty. They elected to put up panel tile there because it would go up quicker as that's a through track. They erred by putting a caption on each and every panel. The correct placement of the captions would have been on every OTHER panel. And the color IS different. I observed it carefully while it was sitting on skids on the platform, awaiting installation. It is a deep shade of purple, with a slight reddish cast. I call it Concord Grape because it matches the color of the jam/jelly of the same name. It is fairly close to the original, except it has a black border.
What I can't understand is why the totally OMITTED the captions at the "E" platform. By the way, that is NOT panel tile there; it is hand set.
Wayne
All the tile on the lower Manhattan A stations was in sorry shape a few years ago. My favorite was on the uptown wall at Canal Street, where the tile with the letter `C' on it fell off near the southern end of the platform.
It still did spell something, and that's the way Collect Pond may have smelled when they built the canal to drain it, but I don't think the MTA had that in mind for a station name.
I don't know how it ought to sound in Dutch, but generally what I've heard is "SKER-mur-horn," so that's what I use.
More like "Skim-uh-horn"
Try it w/ a Brooklyn accent!
We used to pronounce it "Skimmer-horn", but that was forty years ago!
I've always liked the announcement on the IRT of "This is Astor Place", which, invariably, comes out sounding like "Disaster Place".
And she is correct because the Dutch style is the doubled 'o' is long. As to Grosvenor et al--the long term trend is to pronounce fewer and fewer of the consonants. The 'wooster' example is merely the best known. BTW Bethesda at one time hosted a trolley line as well as the Baltimore & Ohio freight branch. When I first came back post Metro it was a shock. I used to bicycle to a drug store to have train pix developed where part of the Red Line station is now.
Does that mean "get me started?" If you are from the South Side, it is RUE-se-velt. I am a graduate of ROSE-e-velt University. I think that the Roosevelt family would be the final arbiter of that.
And what about "Goethe"?
[ And what about "Goethe"? ]
Any Chicago cab driver will tell you the street on the near north side is pronounced go-EE-thee. And, on the west side, Mozart St. is pronounced with an American 'z', not the German 'z' (which is more of a TZ sound).
Outside of Chicago in Illinois, we also have the towns of Cairo (pronounced like Karo Syrup) and Marsailles (pronounced mar-SAILS).
-- Ed Sachs
Then there's Buena Vista, Colorado. People out here don't pronounce it the Spanish way, which would be Bwayna Vista, but instead Anglicize it: Bewna (as in pew) Vista.
P. S. I'm familiar with Mozart St. in Chicago. Too bad there isn't one named for Beethoven, my favorite composer.:)
>>>>Then there's deceptively-simple Noyes, a station on the Purple Line here in Chicago. I say its "No-yez".
My sister swears that it MUST be pronounced like the word "noise." I've heard the CTA conductors
and operators do it both ways. <<<
Noyes...
would there be a cognate French name, Nonoui or German, Neinja, or Russian, Nyetda?
ww.forgotten-ny.com
I have heard the train attendants announce it as "Grow-vuh-ner", with a very light touch on the middle syllable.
Wayne
"This is Grosvenor, doors open on the left side, change for the Silver Spring train. Red Line to Shady Grove, stand clear..'Doors closing'
Change for the Silver Spring train? Don't you mean Shady Grove? On the Grosvenor bound trains, they say to go to White Flint, Twinbrook, Rockville, or Shady Grove, take the train to Shady Grove directly behind this one (often I can get to the 37 bus stop before the train "directly" behind arrives and I ride in the lead car, the exit is at the end of a northbound train, and the 37 stop is parallel to the escalator in the station).
That was just an aside. I guess you would have to change for a Shady Grove train if you were terminating at Grosvenor.
wayne
1.How many AA batteries are between the tracks onthe entire system ?
2.Who tossed the firt one?
3.Has one ever been removed?
4.What health hazzard do they poseto ta workers, the public, the wild
life.
02/02/2000
I think all those "AA" batteries are discarded by passengers whose "Walkmans" needed new ones. You know the ones bought by those Asian guys entering the cars going "one dollar, one dollar".
Bill Newkirk
Gee, and I always thought that they fell from the undercarriage of some subway cars, which would explain the slow running from the loss of power :-)
I know it does not look like the tracks are ever cleaned, but I assure you- NYCT does have track workers whose job it is to clean the tracks. They use brooms and shovels. They usually work during the overnight hours.
Health Hazzard-NO! the latest safety bulletins do not list alkaline or carbon-zinc batteries (like the walkman uses) as an item requiring special disposal. NiCads (rechargeable) and Lead Acid(such as car bnatteries and those on trains) are among those listed as requiring special disposal methods. If you desire more info I'll try to find a copy of the bulletib or maybe Steve can elaborate.
Lithium batteries do represent a special hazard, if there is more than 1 oz of electrolyte. This is not the case for AA batteries.
Alkaline batteries do represent a hazard, in large enough quantities. The Duracell Corporation was found polluting the Saw Mill River - they moved the factory.
I was quoting from an official MTA NYCT Bulletin
1.How many AA batteries are between the tracks onthe entire system ?
As of 2/3/00 the count was 2,147,339
2.Who tossed the firt one?
The first AA battery was tossed by a 14 year old from Midwwod high School. Because of his age, I am not at liberty to reveal his name
3.Has one ever been removed?
Just last week, 182 batteries were recovered and are now on displayat the TA Headquarters at 370 Jay St. in the lobbby.
4.What health hazzard do they poseto ta workers, the public, the wild
life. If enough batteries align in the right configuration, there is a potential for spontaneous shock. However, the real hazard is from slips and falls.
I hope this helps!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generally, you can't see a subway, and you can't see anything from the subway. My question to subtalkers is, which is your favorite view from or of the subway.
My favorite view from the subway is the view back to Downtown Brooklyn and Manhattan from just past Smith/9th on the F.
My favorite view of the subway is the F - Culver as viewed from the Pergament parking lot on Bay Parkway. It seems to be just rolling across the landscape over the cemetery.
I can't say about New York, because all my subway travels there were underground in Manhatan. Favorite views from a subway would be in Boston, the Red line over the Charles River. In Atlanta, East line going westbound between King Memorial and Georgia State.
Since we are now allowed, it seems, to deviate from talking about strictly New York subway views, I would like to add that the view from The San Francisco MUNI's J-line is spectacular. Portland's MAX views coming over the steel bridge into downtown aren't bad either :)
We always have been. It says at the top of the board.
You can talk about any system you like! I'm from Phila. and I post about their system many times.
Chuck Greene
either any train over the Willy B with the sun setting behind the city, or the A train accross the Jamica bay
many spots on the Brighton line(from the express of course).
Coming up the hill from Newkirk...the curve entering Brighton Beach...and the view of Coney Island just leaving W. 8th Street...
02/03/2000
My favorite view of a subway (NYC) is any vantage point on the BMT Brighton Line between Neck Road and Avenue H looking north. On a clear day or night you can see the Empire State Building, a sight that always gave me goosebumps !
Bill Newkirk
I'll second that. The Empire State Building looks so inviting from the Brighton line, just beckoning everyone to "come on over". Come to think of it, it looks inviting from any angle, even from Jersey.
The sight of the head lights of the "A" train pulling into Howard Beach station as seen from the freezing station at AquaDuct station at 5:35 in friggin freezing morning!
More than just the view of Coney Island, the smell of the ocean, seafood, and Nathan's fries!
sorry folks the RAILFAN WINDOW wins hands down everytime !! ( get mad )
My favorite view of a train, from the Top of the Wonderwheel in Coney Island looking down on the Stillwell Station and the CI Yards and Manhatten backround. The F at Smith 9th, Queensboro Plaza West End Upper platform, The entire Brighton Line from Stillwell to Ave H, Boston Red Line over the Charles. A few views over the river toward DC on the WAMTA, The J Church Line in SF too many, since I travel alot
Red Line at Grosvenor. I like the flyover over the Beltway and MD 355 and then the change to open cut before you enter Grosvenor. I got some pictures back yesterday of trains there on a snowy day in DC area. In NY, I like the 7th Avenue Express due to the speed. A hard challenge is to stay standing while on the 2 looking through the soon to be dead railfan window anywhere between Chambers and 96th and especially between 42nd and 72nd.
why is that rail-fan window soon t obe dead???
02/03/2000
O.P.T.O.! (One person train operation)
The new R-142/A's will have full width cabs canceling out the "railfan" window. The R-62/A'S are going through a 5 car unitization program (trainsets grouped in 5 cars) and end cars will be converted to full width cabs thus canceling out the "railfan" window.
This speaks for the mainline IRT, as long as the R-32,33S,36WF,38,40 & 42's are still running, those "railfan" windows will still be alive.
Bill Newkirk
The R-62s and R-62As do have a small square window on each cab door, so a quasi-view can be had - as long as the window isn't covered over.
The R-44s have a small cubbyhole window on their cab doors. The R-46s and R-68s have a good-sized window on their cab doors; however, the glass has an embedded grid which prevents lateral vision. The R-68s were delivered with this grid; the R-46s have had this added in recent years. Originally, the R-46s had most of the cab door window blacked out, with a narrow band to peek through.
Boston has full width cabs with a railfan window to the left of the door. This is a full size window on the Blue Line (OPTO) and newer Red Line cars. Orange Line and older Red Line cars have part of the window blocked with an add-on ATO control box, but there is a standee view over the box. In addition, motormen will sometimes leave the curtain behind them partly open.
For some reason, since the R-10, NYCT has never had windows on the left side of the train.
Gerry
Gerry, don't forget that all of our Green Line Trolleys, including the Mattapan-Ashmont PCCs, Boeing LRVs, Kinki Type-7s, and (stealth) Breda Type-8s have railfan windows. You can stand next to the operator and watch him/her operate too. This is unlike other cities (such as LA's Blue/Green Lines) where there is a full-width cab.
The 33S WILL NOT CONTINUE RUNNING!!!
My favorite view is on the #7 Flushing Express between Shea Stadium and 103rd St. The express track is at a higher level than the local track and the view north towards the airport is spectacular. (If you get a car without scratchitti)
For me I've always enjoyed the view of Coney Island yards from the B, N and F trains.
Wayne
Philadelphia, from a PCC or a Peter Witt on the trolley tracks in the subway inbound from 40th street portal or outbound to it, with a Market-Frankford train barreling past.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For me, On a clear night nothing beats the 7 train Queens bound as it curves out of Hunters Point Avenue toward CourtHouse Square. The curve in the tracks gives you a great panorama of the Manhattan skyline as you look out the left side of the train.
Chuck
Fave view OF a subway... the secret spot in 42nd St
just beyond the S tracks where the trains rub
right on your nose..
Fave view FROM a subway.. IRT trains rushing by the
mysterious, luminated, historical 91 st station.
Who is redheadsrule?
I've got a few--Upper NY Bay from Smith/9th;The A accross Jamaica Bay;The skyline from either el in Queens; and how City Hall in the loop? (Please, don't start another thread about it.)
I'll be parochial here and choose a Boston view for my favorite. The view of Beacon Hill and the State House from the Red Line crossing the Longfellow Bridge is unparalleled. Second place goes to the view of the Queensborough Bridge and Midtown Manhattan from the 7 line near Queensborough Plaza. Third is back in Boston, also on the Red Line looking north over the marshes and harbor to the city from the bridge over the Neponset River.
As far as views of a subway are concerned the center reservation on the Longfellow Bridge provides some great photo ops, both from the bridge itself and from the Boston side of the river. I don't spend that much time on the streets where you can observe trains in New York, but a favorite view is looking down on the Astoria Line from the approach to the Hell Gate Bridge (from a train of course).
FROM:
-The view of Coney Island, and on a clear day, Sandy Hook and the Highlands from the 'D'.
-Where the '1' crosses the Broadway bridge. One side you see the Henry Hudson Bridge, the river and the cliffs of Inwood Park. On the other side, it's the Kingsbridge depot, the 207th yards, the Harlem River and the bluffs that the Deegan Expressway was built into. On either side, you can see Metro-North electrics or diesels.
-Traffic rushing off the Triboro Bridge right under you from the island platforms of Astoria Boulevard on the 'N'.
-On a VERY clear day, the Long Island Sound, Whitestone and Throggs Neck Bridges, City Island and the Great Neck peninsula from where the '6' turns between Castle Hill and Zerega.
-All of Philadelphia from PATCO crossing the Ben Franklin Bridge.
OF:
-A 'D' and 'F' passing each other on the upper and lower levels respectively going into or out of Coney terminal.
-Ditmars terminal as viewed from Amtrak above, especially with 'N' trains on both tracks.
-An 'A' train speeding over Jamaica Bay as seen from the Gateway Wildlife Refuge. I swear that when I was on top of the World Trade Center, I could see the sun glinting off one as it moved along.
-The Red Line coming over the Charles River bridge into MGH, passing over a maze of highway ramps. This was a common stock transition scene in the old CHEERS show.
The Howard St yards from the crossover at Howard, Chicago
Funny you should mention the Astoria line and the BQE. One of the great views of the subway is from the highway coming from the Triboro. Usually, when someone is standing far up in the air, there are behind a wall to prevent them from falling over. At the Astoria Blvd site, you see people from head to toe just standing up in the air waiting for a train. Looks cool.
You're right but for one thing: When you come off the Triboro in Queens, you automatically segue onto the Grand Central. The BQE doesn't start until about a half mile east of there. It's officially Exit 3 or 4 off the eastbound GCP.
It's also amusing when you drive under the Hicksville LIRR station, or any station along the Babylon branch, which all have island platforms. It seems that when the LIRR raised stations in its' grace crossing eliminations, it chose to use island platforms as much as possible. This might have been to save money, but it sure makes it cold for anyone waiting for a train.
When I first saw this question, I thought we were limited to underground views, but I noticed that nearly all of the answers are above ground.
So I'll chime in:
Favorite views in the subway UNDERGROUND: 168th St (1/9), 149th St / Grand Concourse (2/5 level, rear of the uptown platform), 42nd St / 8th Ave, front of downtown platform
Favorite views of the subway UNDERGROUND: Probably the only one, of the R line, over the Bay Ridge Cut in Brooklyn :)
Favorite views in the subway ABOVE ground: At West 8th St, upper level, rear of Coney Island-bound D platform, Brighton Line anywhere between Ave H & Brighton Beach, Eastern Pkwy / Broadway Junction, Flushing Line between 111th St and Main St, White Plains Road line between East 180th St and Simpson St.
Favorite views of the subway above ground: At the Spuyten Duvyil Metro-North platform facing the Broadway Bridge. It's the only "Chicago-type" picture of the NY subway you can get. Also D/F between Stillwell & West 8th St, Culver at Ave Z. Others, too, which I can't seem to think of right now ....
--Mark
I have to be somewhat parochial, and wax nostalgic here...
My favorite (was) Fresh Pond Road on the "M" line. Why?
Before the relatively recent installations of a signal relay room at the north platform end, and concertina wire around the yard, it was possible in one view to simultaneously see:
1. A freight train on the NY Connecting RR in the distance
2. Buses parked below and between the parallel single-track elevated structures ramping to the surface
3. Subway/el trains in the adjacent yard
4. In-service "M" trains on the ramp
Plus (when I was a kid, at least) the view included plenty of green buses, "Q" types, ABs and R9s, and assorted Penn Central power on the railroad. The old Staten Island car yard office, trolley conductor shack, and LIRR were also nearby. And, there was plenty of unused trolley rail beneath the structure, as well as the facade of Fresh Pond Depot, still standing today. A neat place for a young railfan to grow up.
This view made the cover of a 1965 (March?)issue of Railroad Model Craftsman magazine, which I still have. It featured a 2-part story on modeling rapid transit railways.
think you could scan that picture and post it here???
Think you could scan that (magazine) picture and post it here???
Hmmm....I'll have to look for it. It might still be at my mother's house, in which case it will take me a little while to retrieve. Perhaps I'll scan the whole article when I come across it....No new info, but nice light reading.
Then there's the copyright issue...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Above ground- I vote for the F bound for Manhattan entering Smith and 9th- it is a postcard view of the Manhattan skyline.
I'll answer this two ways:
1) Outside - Watching the Brighton Line from the Choych (a.k.a. Church) Ave. overpass. This is where my grandfather would take me so we could wait for a Brightlinter (R-32) to come along... as they did in about 1 in 10 trains when first delivered.
2) Inside the subway - Homeball Alley. Trackwork, signals, hee-yah!
has to be the railfan window with my VIDIEO CAMERA and TRIPOD and WIDE ANGLE LENS looking
out the front !!! great results just ask all of those who have seen my vidieos # 7 # 2-5 A E Q !!!
I am tired of when the Manhattan Bridge North sidetracks are closed the D and B is cut to 34 Street and so I have a proposed plan. My plan will make every line run from Terminal A all the way to its proper terminal! The B and D line southbound tracks meet the E Line tracks at 53 Street. The Northbound tracks veer off at 53 Street and 8th. So my plan has special tracks veer off at 56 Street headed to 7th Avenue. Between 57 Street and 49th Street on the N and R lines tracks will spread out so that two tracks can come in. So the two tracks will be one northbound track headed for CPW, and the southbound track headed to 34th Street. Those two tracks will go switch onto the Broadway Express Tracks. With this the D and B can run with no delay and get to Coney Island. Even though people might have to walk to 6th Avenue once they get off at they get to there places. The Station plan will go as so…
B and D lines Southbound after 59 street when the Northbound tracks close and southbound tracks close.
59 Street- Columbus Circle (Central Park West)
42nd Street (Broadway Line)
34th Street (Broadway Line)
14th Street (Broadway Line)
Canal Street (Broadway Line)
and everything will run normal from there.
If the Manhattan bridge fully closes then it will go as follows the B line will go to 2nd Avenue on the F. The D will use the connection and the Q will run on the Broadway line. This is how it will look for the D line.
59 Street- Columbus Circle (Central Park West)
42nd Street (Broadway Line)
34th Street (Broadway Line)
14th Street (Broadway Line)
Canal Street (Broadway Line)
Whitehall Street (Broadway Line)
Then the line goes through the Montague St. Tunnel the makes the following stops.
Court Street (M, N, R, and Q lines)
Lawrence Street (M, N, R, Q lines)
DeKalb Street
Then the line runs normal.
All this applies for Northbound Service as well.
When this line is not being used or no need for it a new line could be made. Which has the following stops…
The T Line (CPW/ 7th Avenue/ 4th Avenue)
207 Street (Wash. Hts.)
Dyckman Street (Wash. Hts)
190 Street (Wash. Hts)
181 Street (Wash. Hts)
175 Street (Wash. Hts)
168 Street (Wash. Hts)
163 Street (Wash. Hts)
155 Street (Wash. Hts)
145 Street (Wash. Hts)
125 Street (CPW)
59 Street- Columbus Circle (Central Park West)
42nd Street (Broadway Line)
34th Street (Broadway Line)
14th Street (Broadway Line)
Canal Street (Broadway Line)
City Hall (Broadway Line)
Courtlandt Street (Broadway Line)
Rector Street (Broadway Line)
Whitehall Street (Broadway Line)
Court Street (M, N, R, lines)
Lawrence Street (M, N, R, lines)
DeKalb Street (4th Avenue Line)
Pacific Street (4th Avenue Line)
36th Street (4th Avenue Line)
59th Street (4th Avenue Line)
Bay Ridge Avenue (4th Avenue Line)
77th Street (4th Avenue Line)
86 Street (4th Avenue Line)
95th Street- Fort Hamilton
This will only happen if both South and North part of the bridges are open to subway service.
This line will work!
Well this connection will make the difference!
Christopher Rivera
LA LA LA!
Why spend millions to modify these lines for a handful of people who want to get from the Bronx and Upper Manhattan to Brooklyn and vice-versa? Let em get off their butts and transfer at 34th.
If you're going to lay in new track why not run a line from CPW east under what would be 63 St, connecting to the "new" - and mostly unused - B'way line tracks? That would be a lot easier than reconfiguring 7 ave between 49 and 57 Sts, and achieve the same thing. Of course, Park fans would raise unmitigated hell...
I asked a Long Island Railroad engineer who's job is better? A Train operator? or a Locomotive engineer? The engineer says that They get paid more than subway people, and they are allowed to wear anything while operating the Train. Also I heard they can go anywhere they want. Also, i think the M-3's and they diesels like the F-7 are madd ill and fast
That's really not a fair conparision as one is a commuter railroad (LIRR) and the other rapid transit (NYCT Subways).
While they have some similarities in rolling stock (the subway car-like M-1s built for high-level platform access), by-and-large the two MTA systems' operations are dissimilar. Even signalling on the LIRR is different than that of the New York City Subway System.
Both have pros and cons. The one thing that gives the NYCT the edge IMHO as far as superiority is the varied amount of Subway rolling stock. The NYCT has had dozens of car types over the years, while the LIRR for a long time only had the M-1s and the same old commuter coaches (being pulled by hand-me-down diesel equipment).
Doug aka BMTman
[I asked a Long Island Railroad engineer who's job is better? A Train
operator? or a Locomotive engineer? The engineer says that They get paid
more than subway people, and they are allowed to wear anything while
operating the Train.]
I think you answered your own question there. With pay being higher, and the work conditions a bit less frantic, I'd say that LIRR is the better of the two organizations to work for. (Of course my opinion here means jack, so I hope some guys with LIRR or NYCT T/O experience might be able to add to this post).
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, this is one of those "walk in his mocassins" type things.
I don't do either job, so I can't give a definitive answer. For example, my impression is that subway T/Os suffer more gratuitous harassment from supervision.
OTOH, the LIRR crew is virtually owned by managment. It takes a good 15-20 years on the job to get a terminal and run even remotely like one you want. If you are sick you still have to show at your terminal and be sent home. If you don't you better be immobile in a hospital bed (which they will visit) or you have a "failure of service". Get more than a handful of these and you're fired.
Once on the job, you can be assigned anywhere for the good of the RR. This can mean extra pay, but there're no excuses. I know a husband-wife conductor team that, with each having about 20 years service on the road, managed to wangle two jobs from their desired terminal arranged so that one went to work after the other got home (to be there for the kids). One day, supervision tells the guy that his job has an extra round trip (not in the ETT). Luckily he got his parents to rush over and be home for the kids. Even with that good an excuse, he would have been eating the carpet in the supervisors office.
LIRR personnel also have to take tough FRA tests every three years to stay on the road. You have to literally know every switch on your operating division. On the LIRR this means the whole railroad.
And hectic? Try a collector's job, where you have to jump on and off trains east and west at various stations to chop tickets. If you miss part of your job because one of the connections was late, you're still going to be called in.
This all for a pay differential of about 10%-15% over subway personnel.
Now, I'm sure TA personnel have their own horror stories. So I'll say again, don't say someone's job is better or worse if you haven't done it. It's human nature to say MY job is harder than YOUR job.
Interesting to read all those comments about a sister railroad (even though feds dont consider transit railroad)
I was interested to read that LIRR also harrasses sick employees. Until roughly 1989 transit never bothered sick employees even though the rules did say you could be visited. Now it is routine. I remember an interesting story on sick leave harrasment that happened fall 1990. A rto employee filed a grievence that robert ray would of booked offf sick had he not been afraid of being harrassed at home for booking off, thereby preventing unioun square derailment. Amazingly the employee was scheduled to go to the hearing but was told his train had been repeatedly running the station and opening the doors out of the station during morning rush hour. amazingly this had happened many times yet no one fell out. (according to investigation and discipline) By the time he had finished his drug testing he was too late to appear at the haering. then transit decided to give him 3 days suspension. He got them to drop the charges to reinstruction by screaming next time i will kill the passengers and running out of the hearing room into the mailroom. It was funny to see the hearing officer begging him to accept the reinstruction.
You know, I gave you a teaspoon of credibility in my mind on your other post of the dragging incident because I was a T/O under then president David Gunn and remember the R32 story as it happened around the same time that an F train had its doors opened at Jay Street on the wrong side (the Post blamed that on a circuit breaker fault) but I must ask WHO THE HELL was the rep who would file such a ridiculous grievance for anyone who would use booking off sick as an excuse for preventing an accident heresay. Back in 1989, the sick control list and subsequent harrassment was written into the contract but the rules have always stated that unfit employees should be removed from service and alcohol consumption and possession is prohibited. If there was any doubt in anyone's mind that they should not work due to an impairment, they would book sick knowing they are to remain at home unless they call out of the house. There was no need for a grievance if there is nothing to hide. There is no grievance in a case like that of which you described. Tell me more or tell me nothing.
Speaking of the old cars I wonder if the original IRT and BMT subway equiptment would have lasted as long as it did if the Second World War had not interviened. The BOT took over the private systems in 1939 and was just getting its act together when the Axis Powers came over looking for a fight. Even after the war was over it took a few years to get production geared up for civilian use and the first new cars purchased for the subway were to expand service,not replace it.
Some of the High-V's topped 50 years and a few Standards came very close to that. Lo-V's,Steinways, Standards and Q's lasted right up to and a little after Chrystie Street,1969 to be exact. It gave a whole new generation of railfans a chance to see that great equiptment.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I don't think WWII made a difference one way or the other. In the industry at large, though, WWII hastened the demise of street railway systems, if anything.
However, Unification made a difference in the elevated fleet (at least the BMT fleet). The City's intent to eliminate the elevated lines short-circuited the BMT's attempt to replace the elevated fleet. As a result (despite the abandonment of a number of els in 1940) I would say that the elevated fleet (particularly the gate cars) probably lasted a decade or so longer than they otherwise might have.
As for the Manhattan el fleet, I think it would have lasted longer than it did, though I would have expected additional upgrading to MUDC.
In the case of subway cars, I don't think either WWII or Unification made a big difference in service life. The City didn't have the money to replace the IRT fleet (and neither did the IRT) and the BMT fleet was fairly new. So I would say the cars, in general, lasted out more or less their normal design lives.
Paul, if you are talking about street railway systems in general, World War II had the effect of postponing systems' demise. Materials in short supply, like rubber, were devoted to the war effort. In fact, some lines bussed just before the war, were re-converted to rail for the duration. I don't believe the Feds would have permitted a rail to bus conversion during the war.
Well, George, I mean that WWII hastened the rail systems' demise in the sense that the war put a heavy burden on systems at the same time that the companies had no money for maintenance and upgrade (not to mention the war's demand on resources).
The result was that at the end of the war the double whammy of Depression and WWII saw many street rwy systems in a sorry state of repair, making them easier pickings for the postwar forces of autos, GMs, road advocates, etc.
The Second World War did place a tremdous strain on all types of American railway systems, to theie credit they met the challenge. However there was one thing that our transit systems did not have to contend with and that was enemy action. There were several instances of London Transport lines being put out of service by the Luftwaffe.
Maybe our British friend could fill in some details.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I would also imagine service was affected when half of the city had to use the system as a bomb shelter. Thankfully, London had those deep-bored tunnels. The NY cut & cover tunnels would have been useless if NYC was ever bombed.
Did you know that a couple lines of the Paris Metro were prime tarkets for the RAF and USAAF. The Germans were using it for munitions factories.
The war postponed the demise of the 3rd. Ave. el by more than 15 years. It was supposed to be shut down in 1941, but the war meant mass-transit was badly needed.
I'd say no. Transit cars were not a top priority, production wise, during the war.
But, if the war hadn't happened, the IND second system might be running today.
I can't see any way the so-called second system would be running today.
The city got itself too much in debt with the first system, Unification dulled its competitive spirit, and social service spending put the coffin nail into whatever was left.
Rail car acquisition during the war was out of the question. When the South Shore line was faced with record ridership during WWII, they simply enlarged a portion of their existing fleet. Selected cars were cut in half, and additional material was spliced in.
It depends on the equipment. Chances are the Gibbs Hi-Vs wouldn't have remained in service for 50+ years had WWII not broken out.
Most of the pre-war cars saw service into the 1960's (70's for the R1-9's). I guess these cars would have lasted as long as they did war or no war. The city replaced the entire IRT fleet of pre-war cars from 1948-64 (except for a few Low V's on the 3rd Ave. shuttle). Perhaps this is why the BMT Standards lasted so long.
Yes, that's correct. I don't believe any of the Hi-Vs made it to 1960, but the rest of the prewar subway fleet did.
The BMT standards were well-designed, well-built, indestructible cars, so it comes as no surprise they lasted as long as they did. 394 of them were rebuilt in 1959-60, and they were the last ones to be retired. The unrebuilt ones were phased out with the arrival of the R-27s and R-30s.
One of the questions on tonight's "Hollywood Squares" was the following: "New York has 722 miles of...what?" I think it was Karen "Whoopi Goldberg" Johnson who answered "train tracks". The contestant agreed. Of course, the answer wasn't exactly correct but the judges gave it to her.
One can only guess what the late Paul Lynde would have said. At times, they had to edit out the laughter that would follow one of his responses.
Yeah, but Karen/Whoopi and Bruce Villanch together carry Paul's raunch torch. BTW, Whoopi's "gag" answer was "traffic jams"...which in reailty isn't so far-fetched!
Why are some of the El structures are made of stone or concrete?I remember as a teen riding on the old third avenue el, around Bedford Park the El portion turned into a concrete viaduct, a simular structure is on the flushing line.Any reason for this?
At that time the area was rural and there was a need to lure people out of the crowded city to the SUBurbs, so some fancy bells and whistles were used to emulate commuter RR.
At least two places in Boston used this type of construction. The Lechmere Viaduct used a concrete arched structure crossing the Charles River adjacent to the dam. This is still in service. The Fosest Hills extension used a concrete structure with singke columns from the station to just north of the Arborway. This was done to preserve the appearance of the parkway. The steel highway bridge above cancelled out any appeal the el structure, and the adjacent granite arch bridges of the New Haven RR may have had, and both earlier structures are now history.
Gerry
I know that elevated subways are finished in cement at what are considered key intersections. For example, Pelham Parkway on the White Plains Road line, or Bay Parkway on the West End.
Whenever the Els passed over a Parkway, the concrete type of viaduct was used to make it look prettier.
Besides the two you've mentioned:
- Ft Hamilton Pkwy (West End Line)
- Pelham Parkway (White Plains Road Line)
- Ocean Parkway (Brighton Line)
While the Flushing Line doesn't go over any parkways, it does run in the median of Queens Blvd, which may have been called Queensborough Pkwy a long time back.
--Mark
Oh yes ... I left out Bay Parkway on the West End Line, too.
An interesting exception to this is Bay Parkway on the Culver Line. It doesn't have a concrete structure, probably because when the line was built, Bay Pkwy may not have been called that (or the station itself may have a different name like 22nd Ave).
--Mark
>>>(or the station itself
may have a different name like 22nd Ave). <<<
22nd Avenue was on the signage; a couple still remain...
Mosholu Parkway on the 4 Line also stone station
The entire elevated Rockaway line is on a concrete structure. I don't know if this structure was in place when the LIRR ran there, or if it was constructed especially for the subway in the 1950s when the MTA bought the rights.
Isn't the Smith-9th viaduct concrete also?
smith/9th is concrete wrapped steel. The station itself has concrete walls. 4th ave is also concrete walls
Does anyone know why the Smith/9th St viaduct is steel encased with concrete? Better protection from the elements?
--Mark
I think the idea was to make it distinct from the el structures of the BMT and IRT. Part of the Hylan Legacy...
The viaduct on the pennisula has always been concrete. SIR has concrete viaduct between Tompkinsville and Clifton (not the entire way between stations, however). The old North Shore line also is on a viaduct through Port Richmond. SIR used viaduct where due to area building density, it was impossible to put the line in an open cut or embankment.
-Hank
To amend what Hank (and other have posted): the structure on the Rockaways line has always been concrete -- but only as long as the Transit Authority has owned/operated it.
When it was Long Island Rail Road property, it was a wooden trestle. This creosote-soaked wood trestle suffered numerous fires and it is one in the early 1950's that made the LIRR decide to suspend service to the Rockaways (via broad Channel). Shortly thereafter (1953, I believe) the line was sold to the Transit Authority, and we all know what happened since then.
Sorry, but I've got to correct this posting. The bay trestle was always wood in the LIRR days, but the peninsula concrete el was built by the LIRR. Check out the book Change at Ozone Park for a good history of the LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch. The concrete el structure on the peninsula was constructed in 1940 when the entire line was still an all-LIRR operation. It was built to raise the tracks from the street level and eliminate many grade crossings. The stations were designed for easy conversion to a rapid transit type (meaning fares paid in stations) operations. The Jamaica Bay trestle remained wood throughout the LIRR operation (until 1950) - when NY City rebuilt the trestle in 1955-56 for the IND subway, it was entirely replaced with a concrete trestle, two new drawbridges, and man-made islands in the bay to cover the track ties with sand and prevent mussels from attacking trestle pilings and track ties.
Right about all that.
As an aside, it is interesting to note that the Rockaway Line is the only part of the New York Subway System that runs through protected wetlands. Those man-made islands of "The Raunt" are under the jurisdication of Gateway National Park (Dept. of the Interior).
Doug aka BMTman
No, the el in the Rockaways to both Far Rock & Rockaway Park was built by the LIRR for its grade crossing elimination project in the 30's & 40's. The TA just rebuilt the bridges to the Rockaways. Its one of the bridges that burnt down.
There's a section on the Rockaway Line, with a brief history of the LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, at my History of the Independent Subway.
A snippet ...
Probably one of the longest subway mileage expansions since the inception of the IND Division, expansion to the Rockaways, occurred because the TA was given a deal that it basically couldn't pass up. Yet rapid transit service had already run on this line going as far back as July 1898 during the early days of LIRR ownership, when the Rockaway Line was known as the New York and Rockaway Beach, or more simply, the LIRR Rockaway Beach branch....
After World War I, plans were put forth to convert the line to rapid transit as well as eliminate grade crossings on the Rockaway Beach branch and other LIRR lines. The concrete viaduct in the Rockaways was built to rapid transit specifications and completed in 1942. (Notice how the stations are roughly every 10 blocks apart, fairly common for a rapid transit type of service). These plans never reached fruition through the 1930s and 1940s.
In the late 40s, the wooden trestles over Jamaica Bay seemed more prone to fires that "usual"; finally, on May 8th, 1950, a major fire destroyed significant portions of the structure. The LIRR was not in solid financial shape at that time, and decided not to rebuild the line. The LIRR had been trying to sell the Rockaway Beach branch within the City limits to the New York City Transit System (and later the Authority) for many years.
On September 5th, 1952, the TA purchased the Rockaway Beach branch and the line in the Rockaways within the City limits from the LIRR for $8.5 million, considered a "steal" at the time. On June 12th, 1952, replacement of the wooden trestles over Jamaica Bay began. The TA gave a target date of July 1st, 1956, for the opening day. The IND Fulton Street Line would connect to the Fulton St. El east of City Line, and at Rockaway Blvd, a 2-track connection to the new IND Rockaway Line would be made. The original plan for the connection with the Queens Line at 63rd Drive would not come to pass. LIRR service to Rockaway Park via Far Rockaway ended on October 2nd, 1955. Between October 3rd, 1955 and June 8th, 1956, the elevated trackage in the Rockaways was converted for operation by the IND. The terminal station at Mott Avenue was severed from the LIRR. Former LIRR stations at "The Raunt", Goose Creek and Hamilton Beach were eradicated when the IND took over.
On June 9th, 1956, the first IND clearance train left the Fulton Street El bound for the Rockaways. On June 28th, 1956, the first official train left Howard Beach at 5:30pm, dressed with a "Rockaway, Here We Come" sign. It was not of the standard R-10 types; for this occasion, the first train would consist of newer equipment, the R-16s, even though they didn't provide normal service on the line.
For a time, the Rockaway Line was considered a separate division of the NYC Transit System, called the Rockaway Division. Until the mid-70s, an extra fare of 15 cents was collected at Broad Channel. While the E train provided service on the line, it was the longest rapid transit run in New York City (over 36 miles); in the late 50s, some said this was the world's longest rapid transit run. The extra fare was required until September 1st, 1975, when the fare became 50 cents anywhere on the transit system.
Mott Avenue was not yet open when IND Rockaway service began; the temporary terminal was Beach 25th St / Wavecrest. Mott Avenue opened in June of 1958. The remaining portion of the LIRR Rockaway Beach branch north of the Fulton Street El was abandoned by the LIRR on June 8th, 1962. While talk of resurrecting this line for JFK airport service surfaces from time to time, the ROW north of the Liberty Avenue El continues to remain unused to this day.
--Mark
Do the Broad Street tracks connect with the Reading tracks at Fern Rock?
Yes they do.
Of course there is no third rail once the connecting spur leaves the Fern Rock yard limits. I'm not sure when this may have even been used lately. For a long time there was a railroad boxcar and flatcar in Fern Rock yard (for some unknown reason) a few years back, and I assume that's how they got there.
Years ago there was a similar connection between the long-gone PRR Cardington branch and the P & W alongside the El right-of-way west of Millbourne. The third rail stretched a good distance back. I can recall seeing a few P & W cars stored on this track from the El on the way into 69th St (this was when I was a child in the mid-60's). I was later told that the PRR brought freight into the 69th Street yards of the P & W via this branch, but I don't know if this is verifiable.
I believe that all the old BSS cars were delivered from Brill and Pressed Steel on their own wheels over this connector at Fern Rock. Conversely the old Market Street and Frankford El cars came over city streets from the Brill factory since the MFSE is wide gage.
Also didn't Red Arrrow or a predecessor have a freight terminal near or at the site of the Sears Store? That would also have given some business to the PRR Cardington Branch.
PS - I enjoyed the recent thread on the M-4s. I have only ridden them once but I was generally impressed. Regarding the seats, the padded seats on the 01800s here in Boston have held up fairly well, all things considered. They look a tad grungy, and a few have been re-upholstered with bright red vinyl (yuk). But otherwise I'd say they are a success, preferable to hard plastic any day!
GEE I THINK THERE IS A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE MFSL AND THE BSS 2 @ THE CITY HALL STATION. YESTERDAY I SAW THE DIAMONDS IN THE TUNNEL WHERE THE 2 LINES CROSS.
The MFSE and the BSS do NOT connect at City Hall. They don't even cross at grade, so NO diamonds. They are on two separate levels and there are no connections.
Dr Cox's "The Road From Upper Darby" and an ERA Headlights from about 1978 offer excellent histories of the MFSE and BSS, respectively.
The MFSE was relocated in the City Hall area, one of several changes that the line has undergone since its construction. I don't believe the BSS has changed much if any in the City Hall area.
The BSS runs around City Hall and is at a lower level than the MFSE.
If you stand at the City Hall station of the BSS, you can hear the MFSE trains crossing above you. Besides, the two systems have different track guages.
Chuck Greene
Pitkin Mtce Shop R-32 G.O.H. Available for duration of GO-
3356/7 360/1 370/1 375/7 380/1 383/890 384/5 394/5 396/7
3400/1 3404/5 406/7 412/3 414/5 416/7 424/5 426/7 428/9
432/3 434/5 438/9 440/1 442/3 448/9 452/3 460/1 464/5
476/7 484/5 488/9 492/3
3504/5 510/1 518/9 520/891 522/3 538/9 548/593 550/1
552/3 (Is this 3552/453?-It's listed as both.) 606/7
610/1 618/9 628/669 646/7 650/767 654/5 658/471 698/9
3714/5 728/9 786/7 804/5 810/1 818/9 820/1 822/3 828/9
834/5 836/7 840/1 856/7 864/5 868/9 870/1 872/3 876/7
878/9 888/9 894/5 896/7
3912/3 928/9 932/3
3552-3553 and 3452-3453 are not Odd Couples. That must be a typo.
Wayne
Pitkin Mtce Shop R-32 G.O.H. Available for duration of GO-
3356/7 360/1 370/1 375/7 380/1 383/890 384/5 394/5 396/7
3400/1 3404/5 406/7 412/3 414/5 416/7 424/5 426/7 428/9
432/3 434/5 438/9 440/1 442/3 448/9 452/3 460/1 464/5
476/7 484/5 488/9 492/3
3504/5 510/1 518/9 520/891 522/3 538/9 548/593 550/1
552/3 (Is this 3552/453?-It's listed as both.) 606/7
610/1 618/9 628/669 646/7 650/767 654/5 658/471 698/9
3714/5 728/9 786/7 804/5 810/1 818/9 820/1 822/3 828/9
834/5 836/7 840/1 856/7 864/5 868/9 870/1 872/3 876/7
878/9 888/9 894/5 896/7
3912/3 928/9 932/3
Experts Warn of Web Surfing Risk
WASHINGTON (AP) - The nation's top computer experts warned Internet users Wednesday about a serious new security threat that allows hackers to launch malicious programs on a victim's computer or capture information a person volunteers on a Web site, such as credit card numbers.
The threat, dubbed "cross-site scripting," involves dangerous computer code that can be hidden within innocuous-looking links to popular Internet sites. The links can be e-mailed to victims or published to online discussion groups and Web pages.
The vulnerability was especially unusual because it is not limited to software from any particular company. Any Web browser on any computer visiting a complex Web site is at risk.
No one apparently has been victimized yet. But the risks were described as potentially so serious and affected such a breadth of even the largest, most successful Web sites that the industry's leading security group said nothing consumers can do will completely protect them.
Only a massive effort by Web site designers can eliminate the threat, according to the CERT Coordination Center of Carnegie Mellon University and others. Software engineers at CERT issued the warning Wednesday together with the FBI and the Defense Department.
The problem, discovered weeks ago but publicly disclosed Wednesday, occurs when complex Internet sites fail to verify that hidden software code sent from a consumer's browser is safe.
Experts looking at how often such filtering occurred found that Internet sites failing to perform that important safety check were "the rule rather than the exception," said Scott Culp, the top security program manager at Microsoft.
"Any information that I type into a form, what pages I visit on that site, anything that happens in that session can be sent to a third-party, and it can be done transparently," Culp warned. He added: "You do have to click on a link or follow a link in order for this to happen."
The dangerous code also can alter information displayed in a consumer's Web browser, such as account balances or stock prices at financial sites. And it can capture and quietly forward to others a Web site's "cookie," a small snippet of data that could help hackers impersonate a consumer on some Internet pages.
"It really goes across a huge number of sites," said Marc Slemko, a Canadian software expert who studied the problem. Slemko said Internet-wide repairs will be "a very, very major undertaking."
In the interim, experts strongly cautioned Internet users against clicking on Web links from untrusted sources, such as unsolicited e-mail or messages sent to discussion forums.
They also recommended that consumers at least consider preventing their Web browser software from launching small programs, called scripts. But they acknowledged that many Internet sites require that function to operate.
"A large number of sites simply aren't usable" without those functions, Slemko said.
Microsoft said it planned to publish full details and step-by-step instructions for consumers at its Web site, www.microsoft.com/security.
Sounds like another URBAN LEGEND!!!!
"Sounds like another URBAN LEGEND!!!!"
Yeah, the link goes nowhere.
Alan Glick
However, there is a major newstory about a former Director of the CIA who has lost his security clearance because he stored all kinds of highly classified work on his home computer, which was also used to surf porno websites. The articles, which on all the major news-sites, say hackers can break into anyone's computer via the internet, take stuff, and not allow anyone to know they've been there.
LA LA LA! So if it says not to click on links sent to discussion forums, I guess that means that we will no longer be visiting the NTH WARD by using those Roman banners now, will we? It's all Greek to ME!
"LA LA LA! So if it says not to click on links sent to discussion forums, I guess that means that we will no longer be visiting the NTH WARD by using those Roman banners now, will we? It's all Greek to ME!"
Funny that the original post contained a link to a Microsoft site that was bogus. Is somebody yanking our train?
Alan Glick
Yes. My employer's security group has already sent out a corporate-wide email instructing employees not to forward such bogus information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If one stays on a #6 while its turning around through the old City Hall Station, can you see anything of the old station, are there lights? or is it just shadows?
You can see the station on the right side of the train, it is lit. If you can manage to stay on the train. All passengers are supposed to be discharged before the train goes thru the loop. The N. Y. Transit Museum used to give tours but paranoid Rudy stopped them.
Peace,
Andee
I know your suopposed to get off but every day when I trans. from exp to lcl there is at least one person who forgot to get off....
Oops!, C/R not doing their job!
Peace,
Andee
they usually look like lost tourists
There are supposed to be Conductors on the Platform making sure everyone is off the 6 before it leaves Brooklyn Bridge so you don't carry a bomb under City Hall (or post Vote for Hillary Posters in the old station).
I guess during Rush hour the train leave the staion to fast to double check they are empty
The City Hall station would be an ideal location to place a large explosive device that would damage/destroy City Hall above. Rudy isn't as "paranoid" as you might think. He's just being extra cautious.
True but, as long as people ARE still able to ride thru stopping the tours is not going to prevent it from possibly happening.
Peace,
Andee
most of the people I've seen come out of the tunnel are already looking at the maps trying to figure out where they are...
"The City Hall station would be an ideal location to place a large explosive device that would damage/destroy City Hall above. Rudy isn't as "paranoid" as you might think. He's just being extra cautious."
The voice of reason speaks. Too bad all the security measures being taken now at places like this and the World Trade Center had to come without some tragedy occurring.
Oops I was rushing when I wrote my message.
I meant that the security measures could have come without a tragedy occurring, but unfortunately the World Trade Center tragedy happened.
Actually, the whole idea of closing the City Hall station to tours is defeated by not making sure that the #6 trains are completely empty before pulling out of Brooklyn Bridge. During rush hour, they don't even bother.
My point exactly
Peace,
Andee
No - when Rudy stops allowing controlled tours by NYC Transit personnel to genuiously curious people or railfans, I think's that's paranoia.
You can't even take a tour of City Hall itself anymore but you can take one of the White House.
--Mark
I don't think paranoia is in Mr. Bill's vocabulary. Heck, make him an offer and he'll put you up in the Lincoln Bedroom.
I think Bubba uses the tours to scope for new chicks.
That too.
02/03/2000
Speaking of Bubba:
Six Presidents were on a sinking ship.
Gerald Ford said "What will we do?"
George Bush said "Man the lifeboats"
Ronald Reagan said "Huh?, What lifeboats"
Jimmy Carter said "Women first"
Dick Nixon said "Screw the women"
BILL CLINTON said "Do you think we have time?"
Bill Newkirk
Bill Clinton isn't as skilled at making people hate him. Guiliani's style of governing will almost certainly create violence among some of his political enemies and kooks who simply don't like him. It's not paranoia.
They only have those Conductors assigned during Weekdays and on Weekends the its up to the Train Crew to clean out the train.
My point exactly.
Peace,
Andee
Caught the first February showing last night, included:
- 125th M-N station re-hab ... Part II, incl. some history
- Introducing the R-142 ... more details & close up photos ... NICE
- 20 Watt vs. 80W bulbs in the subways ... interesting
- What one employee is doing for FUN ... a winter baseball camp for young kids, Mets John Franko stopped by.
====================================
Off topic ... filler ?
- Liberty Sicence Center at Jersey City
- 2000 Census ... why you should fill yours out
So, catch it if you can, 1/2 hour on LI channel 80
Mr t__:^)
And today on BCAT at 6pm, I'm sure to watch.
For those who don't pay an arm and a leg for service from the evil cable monopoly, it's on Saturdays at I believe 2PM, on WNYE-25.
The cable monopoly is almost as bad as the subway monopoly. Neither is as bad as the major league sport monopoly.
Well, one can always look to smaller leagues for sports, one can get a sattelite dish (which costs LESS and offers MORE). The subway has no alternative, unless you want to pay exorbitant parking rates.
Don't forget it's on WNYE (25) Saturday at 3:30 PM.
When I stepped off the F train at Propsect Park -- 15th Street there were about 15 cops on the platform and the area around the token booth was screened off with police tape. I asked a cop what happened, and he said there was a crime, but would not say anything more. There were a bunch of packages on the floor in front of the booth.
I hightailed it home, since the kids came home with a teenage baby sitter yesterday, and they sometimes take the train one stop home from school. But they had taken the bus.
By the time my wife came home 30 minutes later, the cops and most of the tape were gone.
Anyone know what happened?
robert johnson
james carlson
same e-mail//same i.p address // f.y.i.
And what about you? Why are you using the damn fool's e-mail address?
The damn fool seems to be posting from an Israeli domain.
I'm curious as to what the major differences are between these two means of power distribution. IIRC, catenary is suitable for high voltage applications such as the New Haven line while overhead wire is almost universally used for streetcars. Is is true that pantographs are used with catenary while trolley poles are used with overhead wire?
I'm trying to figure out just what type of power distribution is used on Denver's light rail line. On the street running portion, there is plain old overhead wire with no suspenders. On the private ROW, suspender cables are used; I suspect it may have to do with higher operating speeds. I do know this much: our LRVs operate on 750 volts DC and they are equipped with pantographs.
Latest on the Southwest Corridor: the whatever-you-want-to-call-it is being strung as far south as Hampden Ave., and support towers are in place as far as Oxford Ave. I have observed crews working at the stations, as well as ballast being put down along the tracks. Wayside signals are being installed. Still no canopies at the Hampden Ave. station, although lampposts are there.
A snag has developed concerning the proposed Central Platte Valley Spur. The owners of Union Station now want RTD to lease space for the light rail spur, whereas before, they had agreed to pitch in on the cost of construction. If an agreement is not reached, the line may terminate at 16th St. instead.
Simple trolley wire is a single wire suspended from the holders either on span or side arms.
Canteary usually has a steel wire over head that supports it and the contact wire is suspended from the other wire. It allows longer spans between poles and a stronger instalation
The top wire can have a lot of sag between poles but the contact wire remains level.
Contact wire is usually limited to about 2" between 100 foot supports at 72 degrees.
Pantograph and trolley poles are methods up picking up power The support for the wire is different. On trolley wire they try to stay as close to the center of track as possible so the pole tracks better. On Pan the wire zig zags a bit to even the wear on the contact bow and to keep it from becomming grooved.
Also the steel messenger wire in a catenary system is under
tremendous tension. Steel can tolerate it, and it allows very
long runs between supports. Trolley wire, which is hard-drawn
copper or bronze, is strung under much less tension and tends
to sag even when supports are close together.
I forget the details but there is a difference between wire frogs
designed for trolley poles and for pantograph shoes. I believe,
but I might easily be mistaken, that pans used on trolley wire
will wear quickly because of it (plus the grooving effect you
mentioned), whereas trolley poles operating on specialwork
designed for pans will not track through the wire frogs.
When the changed over the wire in Newark City Subway recently to
accomodate the new junk^H^H^H^HLRVs, which have to have pans
because they suck so much current, they had to retrofit pans
onto the PCCs because mixed trolley/pan operation wasn't feasible.
Have you ever ridden in the LRVs? Why do you call them junk then?
And this is also something I continue to say about the R-142 whenever a detractor decides to call it crap.
Have you ever ridden in the LRVs? Why do you call them junk then?
No, I haven't ridden those particular LRVs, but I don't think
that's a particularly valuable way to assess a car.
And this is also something I continue to say about the R-142 whenever a detractor decides to call it crap.
I call them crap not because of some sentimental feelings for
the older equipment, but in objection to the over-engineering
that goes into them. 200 parts to close a door (Type 7s).
A computer to monitor toilet flushes (LIRR C-3). As for the Newark
LRVs, did you hear how one of them got wrecked? Seems one of the
LRVs dropped dead. Another came up to push it. Only problem is,
the cars being smarter than you, the pusher LRV's propulsion
system kept on dropping out trying to push the slug upgrade.
So, they decided to get a running start.....you can guess the rest.
And it's not like you can do something simple like wedge in the
overload relay to get around this problem.
Did the design specs call for one car to be able to push another? If so, NJT should send them back to the factory. If not, NJT should have whoever drew up the specs buy NJT a diesel unit for pushing dead cars around -- and then fire the jerk.
Denver's private ROW portion has what appears to be copper support wire. It's copper-colored, anyway, and the contact wire looks nice and level. The street-running portion, as I mentioned, has contact wire and nothing else. It does appear to dip between poles if you look down the street.
I suspect it's phosphor-bronze - it doesn't corrode as easily as copper does and it retains a lot of copper's natural flexibility and strength. It has a high copper content - Frank Gatazka can probably tell us how much.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NJT/AMtrak uses copper (or copper look alike.) I have seen new sections go up and watch it turn to "green" (Copper oxides["rusts"] to green)
Note to chemists: YES. I know copper does not rust but iron does. Even Iron erusting is actually oxidation. I used the easy worsd rather than the hard word and it is in quotes.
Even the copper tops on the four towers of the main building on Ellis Island will eventually turn green; I think they're starting to do so already. Has it really been almost 10 years, come September, since they restored that building? Hard to believe...
I read monday article in the daily new that said the reason that the C was taken out was that it carries fewer riders than the E line and the reason why there was no increase in e service period is limited track space and cars to utilize. is this true, because i don't belive that is entirly accurate at all. this was what i thought they may have done
1)add some of the C trains not used onto the E linemaybe terminate some at 71st queens
2)have the C run its full route to lefferts as a local the A remain the same and since the E can't stop at world trade, express stops to euclid ave.,then local to lefferts
but like it was said they don't have enough track or wahteverexcuse they can pull to run less trains, but is this statemnet in the daily new article true?
According to the signs in the subway. there is extra service on the e line and they all run from jamica center, to Euclid Ave
E service in Queens and Manhattan is about the same as it was before the extension to Brooklyn. Fulton St. local riders have the added benefit of increased headways on the E during rush hours. I rode the A yesterday morning, and there were no problems.
The people who get screwed are the CPW local riders, stuck with B service only. But it's nice to see the affluent riders get shafted in favor of the outer boros for a change.
I rode the A on Monday during the PM rush (about 6 PM) down to Chambers Street. There was a backup beyond Spring Street for the A and the E to merge beyond Canal.
I wasn't sure whether this was the result of some other incident, or if it was because higher frequency of E trains was causing the bottleneck going down to one Brooklyn bound track at Chambers. Has this been going on for the rest of the week, or was this just an isolated first-day kink in the system?
Chuck
I'd expect traffic to move through the Cranberry St. tube at about the same rate as it does through the 53rd. St. tunnel. It'll slow down a bit, but it never really stops.
If capacity ever becomes a problem, they should consider cancelling those special Rockaway Park A train runs.
I was stuck outside Canal (slow from Spring) on the at 5pm yesterday. THEY allowed THREE (3) Express trains to go before giving his the lineup. I assumed it was one express train for each of the A's terminals. People were ripping mad on the E.
If you look at today's ny post on pg 12, president clinton has decided to give $5 million for ny to bulid a 2nd avenue subway to run fom 125th street to 63rd street. the two things that shock me is, will he actually do this and will this be bulit in my lifetime?
how much of a subway will $5 million build????
Average cost per mile of new subway construcion, 5 mil will build a whopping:
1/8 MILE OF SUBWAY!
WOW! 1/8th of a mile! I could walk that in like a minute. WOW!
The MTA predicts the 2nd Avenue subway will cost $1 billion per mile. Did you actually say $5 billion?
If it's $5 billion, then it looks like a naked attempt to help Hillary beat Rudy. And who cares? Show us the money! I'll still vote for Rudy.
Hey, I might vote for Hillary if we'd actually get the $5 billion. But not only do I not believe it is forthcoming, I couldn't even find the NY Post article the person who started this thread referred to.
I figured about a year ago that NYC could expect to see a promise of some Second Ave. subway $$$ if the missus did run for Senate. If she gets elected and the Democrats retake the House and Senate while the Republicans win the White House, we might actually see a buck or two of it end up in a transportation appropriations bill when Hillary runs for president in 2004.
I"ll vote for Rudy just so my union does not have to deal with him for my contract. NO RAISE, ever here of cost of living??? NO MORE ZEROS!!!
(Kinda like No Zeros for Heros the police use).
You my good man, under stand exactly what I'm talkin about!!!!
If Hillary does run for President, she just lost one vote.
($5 million to do a study)
Make that a lost Senate vote. Let me guess, there was a big press conference to announce this? As long as politicians continue to get in the newspaper for "studies" we'll never get any improvments.
I guess it's not who you know anymore.I GUESS it's more like'WHO YOU BLOW AND WHO BLOWS YOU!! This is discusting. Out of the blue,they want to give the TA 'help' to build the new subway? Iguess that a sure way to get votes. Boy I wonder if Rudy sweatin bullets aboutright now? I mean this guy is basically tring to buy NEW YORK votes for his wife with this stunt,for something that we paid for over 20 years ago with tax payer money. What's that I smell? smells like... smells like...I KNOW!! Smells like BULL---- !!!!
02/03/2000
How much of that 5 billion comes from the White Water land deal ?
Bill Newkirk
THAR SHE BLOWS,CAPTAIN!!!!!!!!Huh?.... WELL, BLOW ME DOWN!!!!!!!
Isn't that Monica's line, or,maybe Ken Starr's?
02/05/2000
Poor Monica, she recently submitted a resume for a job and for desciption of past employment put down "sat on the Presidential staff"!!
Bill Newkirk
$5 million? That should be enough to buy the press coffee and donuts at the official groundbreaking ceremony.
WHAT,was this a gesture to buy votes for his dear long suffering,tring to win a NEW YORK spot,down south native,NEW YORKER WANNABE,had to take a crash course in NEW YORK lingo,the real person running this country ,STILL MAD ABOUT THE BLOWJOB,lovey wife
Read it again. It says 'to STUDY', not 'to build' $5M is like a penny's worth of funding.
-Hank
Problem is, the damn thing's been "studied" since 1928! Stop the studies and start digging.
What's to study? The city already had a plan approved in the early 70's, and constructon had already begun. Just pick up where they left off when construction was halted, but divert the line at 63rd. St. over to the Lex. Ave. station.
That was what the line was supposed to do when it was started in the 1970s.
Just look at what the last MTA study got us. A recommendation for a"stubway" to nowhere because there just wasn't justification for anything south of 63rd Street.
I sure don't know what the authors of that study must have been inhaling because it sure must have clouded their vision and their minds.
This is not the first time that money has been
allocated to build a 2nd Ave Subway.
In 1951, they had gotten 500 million for the same purpose -
and it mysteriously disappeared.
02/05/2000
The 500 million dollars for the 2nd Avenue dreamway didn't disappear, it was used elsewhere to catch up on deferred maintenance and maybe some subway cars, (R-15? etc).
Bill Newkirk
Are the cars seen in the Tom Cruise movie "Risky Business" still in use in Chicago? They look old school.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The "Risky Business" cars were single unit cars of the 1-50 series, built 1959 by the St. Louis Car Co. They were similar to the 6000 series, but were single cars (rather than married pairs), designed so they could be used for single car, one person operation (and were used as such on the Evanston shuttle and Skokie Swift lines). They've all been retired.
-- Ed Sachs
They also ran in trains of four or six cars on the Evanston Express, IIRC.
Noticed the many (4 or 5) lights outside PATH cars? What do they mean. I know that red is a "guard Light". I think the other lights are green, blue and white. Anyone know that those mean?
There are three lights outside the LIRR MU cabs. They are red, orange and green. What are the meaning of these?
They may be related to the brakes. At least here in Boston the commuter rail cars have the same pattern; red for an open door, green indicates brakes released, amber indicates brakes applied. Such is what I've been told at least. Perhaps someone else has better info???
That's my understanding too, Conrad. And the lights even work on the new (-ly rebuilt) 200-series cars and the 700-series bilevels. On the 300s and 600s most of the lights are not operational, or don't respond to changes in brake application.
On PATH, my guess would be that they are marker lights that were once required when they had manned towers.
-Hank
The are the route markers :
Red = WTC / Newark
Green = WTC / Hoboken
Yellow = 33rd st / Journal Sq
Blue = 33rd st / Hoboken
Can /do they still do Blue/Yellow for the weekend 33-JSQ via Hoboken service?
es. the Blue/yellow runs overnight and between 730pm-9am weekends.
If you live in Hungary then what is the scoop on the proposed M4 (green metro?) I have heard it will not serve the tri-level station that the M1, M2, and M3 serve and that it will jog south instead to get to the balatoni???
No, I am not from Hungary. I live in Brooklyn.
I live in Brooklyn and I'm always Hungry.
That's worth a rim shot.
Sure has been nice having a few extra trains to change to at Jay Street. Brooklyn could get used to this. I know there is a car shortage, but could the C run local to WTC, and the E express on 8th Avenue and local on Fulton Street? Sure would be nice.
us Queens folk would love an E express on 8th Av even better would be to switch it at W 4th with the F and send the E to Coney Island and the F to Euclid, so 8 ave riders could get to Coney w/o a trans.
Good Idea run the E to Coney Island and the F to Euclid
Someone needs to write the Congressmen or Communtiy Boards in Clinton Hill or Bed-Stuy in Brooklyn so that some pressure could be put on the TA to keep the E in Brooklyn. There is now twice as much local service along Fulton Street now. Once the folks there get used to it, the rug will be pulled out from under them, and back to 10-minute headways all day on the C(reepy)C(rawler). That's too bad.
Yeah, but it's inevitable. The E was 2/3 empty at rush hour. They ain't going add trains to move empty seats. Nice while it last, though.
If you're lucky, the same people working on the WTC interlocking are the ones who promised the Manny B would only take a couple of years to fix. Then you can have E service on Fulton through about 2010.
When I was in New York last summer, the E train ran from Jamaica Station to the World Trade Center, and it was underground all the way. What is the route of the E now, and is still all subway, or is it partly elevated? I like to keep abreast of route changes.
No, it's still all subway, but it runs exactly as a C train would south of Canal St.
Thanks Chris, and if you see any other route changes, let me know. I want to keep abreast. I'm making changes on my NYC Subway map I got last summer when I was in New York.
Hey Fred, I thought you were smarter then that, check out the MTA site and then service changes. I think they have a newer map also then the one last summer. You can write the TA at 370 Jay Street Bklyn 11201 and ask for a subway map. They will send you one FREE
"...check out the MTA site..."
Don't be so confident about the MTA site. As I posted a few days ago, the map on that site contains errors.
After I posted, I called the MTA and spoke to the webmaster. She expressed surprise that there were errors, and told that the map would be changed soon. However, the error-laden map is still there as of Friday evening.
So, unless you want to become informed that a "yellow" shuttle is going to Queensbridge from 57/7th in place of the B/Q, that the E train does not stop at the Briarwood-Van Wyck Blvd., and that Euclid Ave. is located in Queens, then checking the web site would not be such a good idea right now.
So, the best thing to do is really to write the MTA for a free map at the address Bob gave, or else call them at (718)330-1234 and request one.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Fred: If you want to e-mail me your address I'll be glad to send you a copy of the current map.
Larry (RedbirdR33@hotmail.com)
You shouldn't change your copy of the map for this E change. It will only last a month (1/28-2/28) and isn't listed on any edition of the map. It's just a long term GO (General Order) as opposed to an outright service change.
Here are the changes (everything will be back to normal on 2/28):
Local service in Manhattan begins earlier, at 9PM (normally 11). All trains stop at all times at 155th Street and 163rd Street, normally local stops.
Trains run to 145th Street on weekends in addition to weekdays.
Service eliminated
Extended to Euclid Avenue as local, uses Chambers Street platform at Chambers-WTC. Nights runs to Canal Street.
63rd Street shuttle runs weekends in addition to nights to make up for B reroute up CPW.
Actually the B runs to 168St, not 145......
On Weekends, or middays too?
Right now for the GO, I think it runs there all ties except for rush hours........
3TM
As I understand, A trains will stop at 155th and 163rd Sts. during rush hours and nights.
If you were to assign a certain group of 75-foot cars which shall remain nameless, then (C)rawler would be an appropriate nickname.:)
If you did that, there would inevitably be delays because both E and F trains would have to use those switches. Not that it wasn't done before, because it was...
I will be in Atlanta from 2/7 to 2/12 and want to know what is a must see on MARTA??
I know to have Thurston and Doug BMT MAN to be my "best" friend I have to find a Superbowl Card. But what can you guys suggest to see (more on the RR side?? I hope to have Monday Afternoon and Saturday to explore.
Afraid not very much, fellow Lou. You can do the whole system in about a good afternoon. When taking the N/S line form the airport, do note the track coming in from their storage yards to your left. The stations are large, clean and (mostly) empty. Oh yeah! On the N/S line pay atention as you pass over the old Southern main line, Amtrak stores a couple of Amfleet cars there middays waiting to go back north on The Crescent. Actually- some nice views once you come out of the downtown tunnels. Also bring your Metrocard holder for your MARTA pass...they tend to lose their magnetism after a few swipes (MARTA personnel are quite used to it, though..)* Have fun!! The closest thing to Nathans in Atlanta,BTW, is a place called The Varsity (North Ave on MARTA) a HUGE drive-in [LITERALLY..they still have car hop service!] with GREAT chili dogs, the COLDEST Coke youll ever have in your life,** fantastic Onion Rings (so-so fries). For dessert get the orange frosty-ummmmmmmm! Any more questions...email me!
*in the summer they wilt if you keep it in your pocket!
** just down the street from coke world HQ....
you mean they still use CHEAP PAPER TRANSCARDS ??
and do the trains still throw you back and fourth especially from the gannett station to five points!!!
bankers hours slow service ( LIKE LOST ANGELES) !!!! and SMELLY CARPET ON THE FLOORS ???
Thanks Lou!! I do it, Monday when I arrive I think...
I first thing I'd do would be to print a copy of the MARTA station by station on this site that yours truly wrote.
The stations that you should visit are Peachtree Center, beautiful station; Decatur, with the "futuristic look"; Ashby, two levels, see the Bankhead spur spilt down the tunnel on the west end of the station; Five Points.
Travel eastbound past Avondale and get a nice view of the Avondale Yard as the train passes over it.
Going westbound, between King Memorial and Georgia State, excellent view of Downtown, Midtown on the right. Staying westbound past Georgia State, try to see the only interline track between the North-south and east-west lines, it will be on the left side of the train, between the two mainline tracks and it goes down below them.
Take a Dunwoody train to Lindbergh Center, and count how many times the T/O annouces that the train is a "Dunwoody train," before arriving at Lindbergh. If you stay on the Dunwoody train, all the stations on the north line are nice looking.
If you take a Doraville train past Lindbergh, look out the left side when the North and Northeast line split, you get a nice view of Buckhead.
Nearly every station has some sort of artwork in it. Try to see them from the train. North Ave artwork, I like. Notice the cement at Midtown, and Arts Center, they did a good job to make it look like wood.
About the Superbowl card, I can't help you there. I never bought a TransCard for January, so I don't know if the January card had a Superbowl thing on it. If you buy a weekly vistor's pass, maybe it will have something on it. I know that some tokens had a superbowl logo on it, but I never got any.
Thanks Rob, didn't know about the line by line (haven't been there for a long time) will read it ASAP.
As to the Super Bowl card, looks like my friendship with Thurston and BMT Man will be over in a week....>G<...
Lou, Maybe you'll get lucky, I'll keep my fingers crossed. But even if you don't, you're still part of the 3/4 ton club.
BTW, to the rest of you folks the 3/4 ton club is a little known R-17 maint. tool .
Mr t__:^)
I have my fingers crossed for you MetroCard collectors that I can find one. Heck my wallpaper is a picture of R17 6688 >G<.....(with Low-V in backround).
Lou, thanks for putting me in the "friend" catagory. heypaul may have to take you to task on that, so expect some "flaming" in the future.
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
FLAMING ?? WHAT FLAMING ??!!! MARTA RAIL SYSTEM ???
what in the hell is there to see ??? """ been there 1984 done that 1987"""
what rail system ???? LIKE LOST ANGELES TO ME !!!
if you want to see a rail system try WASHINGTON DC PHILADELPHIA SAN FRANCISCO
BOSTON NEW YORK CITY ( skip past atlanta ) !!!!!!!!!!!!
On February 3, 2000 I have observed the following...
R68 - 2514 with window frames inserted the wrong way. It was inside out. Potential hazard because if a fool on the train happens to see that and has a screwdriver he can take the windows out. Don't know why but there are people out there that might do that. NOTE: Another 2 cars in the set have the same problem. I don't have numbers.
R68 - 2725 has a shattered window. Its not broken but one more hard blw it'll be.
I also saw a couple of R68s from
On February 3, 2000 I have observed the following...
R68 - 2514 with window frames inserted the wrong way. It was inside out. Potential hazard because if a fool on the train happens to see that and has a screwdriver he can take the windows out. Don't know why but there are people out there that might do that. NOTE: Another 2 cars in the set have the same problem. I don't have numbers.
R68 - 2725 has a shattered window. Its not broken but one more hard blw it'll be.
I also saw a consist of R68s from Concourse Yard attached to ones from Coney Island Yard. That's all I saw out of the ordinary.
You are very observant. However, this is being done intentionally. The screws will be replaced with tamper proof screws in the very near future. Replacing the glass from the outside is more dangerous and time consuming than from the inside. We are now mandated to turn all door panel glass around. This is not new as pre-overhaul, most NYTA cars were glazed with rubber and was installed from the inside.
I called up Newsradio 88's "Ask The Mayor" show a few minutes ago. I was able to ask him "In light of the fact that the White House does not feel there is enough of a terrorist threat to cancel tours, why do you feel you cannot permit tours of the historic IRT station under City Hall and City Hall itself?"
The Mayor's response was that City Hall station is under the control of the Police Department and the Transit Authority, and that it is their concerns of a terrorist threat that keep tours, and the Transit Museum, from the station.
I think this laughable--that the Mayor contends that his attitude has nothing to do with this. If Fuhrer--excuse me, I mean Mayor, Giuliani, chose to, he could say a word and tours of City Hall Station could be resumed under security conditions that would satisfy all reasonable concerns.
Just another example not only of the Fuhrer's--i mean the Mayor's paranoia, and his refusal to take responsibility for his fascist approach to city government.
I think MEIN FUHRER doth sweat quite buckets in lite of yon 5 billion[or doth tis be million] greenbacks the KING willth give to the pesents of yon hamlett. what thinkist thou????
I think I dont understand a damn word your saying....
Rudy can t be der Fuhrer, he is Italian, he has to be Il Duce.
Remember during the last election, how he came down like a ton of bricks on "Fascist" as a slur against his Italian heritage? Whoever said it (Mark Green?) was only looking for a nice word for "Nazi" and not thinking of the historical Mussolini government, but Rudy managed to get serious ethnic points out of it.
Interestingly, the political philosophy of 1920's Fascism centered on corporate dictatorship, the running of the country in the interests of what Ike called "the military-industrial complex"-- i.e., that what's good for Disney is good for the city.
ike'S quote was "what's good for General Motors is good for the United States of America" so half his cabinet came from gm.
John, just to set your American history straight, Ike wasn't the one who said it. It was his Secretary of Defense who said it. He had been the head of GM before Eisenhower tapped him for the top Defense Department job. His name was Charles E. Wilson.
Having been in the station when the Mayor (and NJ & NY Governors) are on-the-air, I'm absolutely amazed you got through. There are literally thousands of calls during each show which get busy signals; only a handful of those that actually ring are answered and put on the air.
I don't like the answer you got either, but at least you got an answer!
Let's see if I get an answer to the "Ask the Governor" question I e-mailed in. It went as follows:
"In your State of the State message, you proposed tax breaks to attract businesses to some New York State counties that need help, but not other counties. Guess which county's businesses would be allowed to pay lower state taxes under your proposal, County A or County B:
According to County Business Patterns data, County A gained nearly 100,000 private jobs from 1969 to 1997. County B lost nearly 100,000 private jobs during the same period.
According to the New York State Department of Labor, County A's unemployment rate is 3.9 percent, below the national average. County B's unemployment rate is 8.5 percent, double the national average.
According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, the 1997 per capita income of County A was $28,588, above the national average. The per capita income of County B was @22,614, below the national average.
According to the census bureau's 1995 local poverty estimates, County A's poverty rate was 12.0 percent, below the national average, but County B's poverty rate was 29.3 percent, off the charts.
The answer is: George Pataki has proposed lower taxes for County A, "needy" Monroe County, because it is in Upstate New York. County B, "undeserving" Kings County would not be eligible."
Set see him explain that one on the air.
[Let's see if I get an answer to the "Ask the Governor" question I e-mailed in. It went as follows:
"In your State of the State message, you proposed tax breaks to attract businesses to some New York State counties that need help, but not other counties. Guess which county's businesses would be allowed to pay lower state taxes under your proposal, County A or County B:
According to County Business Patterns data, County A gained nearly 100,000 private jobs from 1969 to 1997. County B lost nearly 100,000 private jobs during the same period.
According to the New York State Department of Labor, County A's unemployment rate is 3.9 percent, below the national average. County B's unemployment rate is 8.5 percent, double the national average.
According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, the 1997 per capita income of County A was $28,588, above the national average. The per capita income of County B was @22,614, below the national average.
According to the census bureau's 1995 local poverty estimates, County A's poverty rate was 12.0 percent, below the national average, but County B's poverty rate was 29.3 percent, off the charts.
The answer is: George Pataki has proposed lower taxes for County A, "needy" Monroe County, because it is in Upstate New York. County B, "undeserving" Kings County would not be eligible."]
While I'm not necessarily defending the Governor's position, there is more to the County A/County B situation than meets the eye. Monroe County's 100,000 new jobs were for the 1969-to-1997 period. That's a mighty long stretch. If most or even all of those jobs gains occurred, say, between 1969 and 1989, with net losses ever since, you hardly have the picture of an economically healthy county. And this may be more than mere speculation; from what I have heard and read (including figures cited in your "Vampire State" report), most of Upstate has been on the decline for at least a decade. Monroe County in particular has supposedly been hit hard by re-engineering at Eastman Kodak. On a somewhat similar note, Monroe County's low unemployment rate might reflect the outflow of thousands of working-age people. Shrinking the labor force can lower the unemployment rate even when there aren't many new jobs. And the outflow of the unemployed also can raise per capita income while lowering the poverty rate. It's as if only the strong survive, in the wilds of Monroe County. In short, we need more information before passing judgment on the Governor's actions.
Monroe County is the most economically sucessful county Upstate, and Kings is the most economically unsuccessful county downstate (unless you are a Brooklyn politician, in which case you'd call it a success from having protected the borough from rapacious corporations bent on changing neighborhoods). So yes, they are exceptions in the general area that will be "in" or "out" in Pataki's plan.
But that's the point. If Pataki had used objective criteria to decide who is entitled to what, he would have gotten a different answer. Maybe Brooklyn would be in with the North Country. Maybe Monroe would have been out with Manhattan.
But he didn't. He only considered which areas he wanted to favor, and which he wanted to screw. And don't say that Brooklynites can get a job in Manhattan. I can, because I have a graduate degree. For others, its not so easy.
[Monroe County is the most economically sucessful county Upstate, and Kings is the most economically unsuccessful county downstate]
I thought that Bronx County would be in the latter position.
(Which is worse off, Bronx or Brooklyn).
Bronx residents are worse off. But Brooklyn has suffered a far greater economic decline as far as jobs within the borough.
In addition to Manhattan commuting, Brooklyn once had a substantial independent economic base in manufacturing and shipping. That is gone. The Bronx had less to lose -- it was always primarily a bedroom borough.
Moreover, the city failed to adequately "protect" the Bronx from new retail -- substantial commercial zones were mapped near Co-op City. Major commercial developments were banned from manufacturing zones in 1974 to "protect" them, thereby limiting commercial expansion in Brooklyn even as industry declined. But the Bronx has had a commercial boom in the Co Op City area, adding thousands of jobs.
Staten Island also has extensive commercial zoning, and growth, as does Manhattan. There are few places for Queens to grow, but the borough is rich enough that business interests have been able to overcome the tortuous process of rezoning from manufacturing to commercial -- in Downtown Flushing, in College Point, and in Long Island City.
But Brooklyn has been "protected." You should read the local weekly newspapers. "So and So Proposes New Business: Neighbors Outraged." The Brooklyn Heights "I've got mine, jack, so kiss my ass if you want to open a business in my borough" attitude, combined with a fear that new business will bring "outsiders" to southern rim communities, dominates the borough's politics.
Brooklyn definately needs a shove. More-so than Monroe County. Even approved projects are sitting idle -- no financing.
[But Brooklyn has been "protected" [from commercial development]. You should read the local weekly newspapers. "So and So Proposes New Business: Neighbors Outraged." The Brooklyn Heights "I've got mine, jack, so kiss my ass if you want to open a business in my borough" attitude, combined with a fear that new business will bring "outsiders" to southern rim communities, dominates the borough's politics.
Brooklyn definately needs a shove. More-so than Monroe County. Even approved projects are sitting idle -- no financing.]
I don't see why Brooklyn needs any kind of state assistance. Most of the borough's economic woes are largely homegrown, courtesy of this moronic anti-development attitude. Taxpayers elsewhere should not be obliged to rescue Brooklyn from its own idiocy.
(I don't see why Brooklyn needs special tax breaks)
I don't see why ANYONE needs special tax breaks. But if income is going to be redistributed, might as well do it down instead of up. Brooklyn's moronic politicians are half the story. The moronic polticians in the rest of the state are the other half.
Because Upstate voted for him and the city did not, so he feels he does not know the city anything
(Pataki screws NYC because Upstate voted for him and the City did not)
So why did Cuomo and Clinton screw NYC?
First, since I take liberties with my posts, it is a little ironic, that I
should object to the title of the post. Second,
does the word refer to politicians or to the people
who respond to this post.
Third, I am not overwhelmed by Governor Pataki, but
I think that he helped introduce the Metro Card to
New York City, perhaps as an incentive to vote for
him in his reelection. But the Metro Card really is
a blessing for people who live in 2 fare zones. It
has greatly encouraged mass transit ridership. It
has given me for the price of a Fun Pass the ability
to ride around the transit system like a kid,
getting on and off as much as I want. The express
bus fare is now $3 instead of $4. You can ride the
private bus lines and LI Bus as much as you want
with a Fun Pass or Unlimited Weekly Pass. The 10%
bonus on a $15 card has reduced the fare from $1.50.
As far as Brooklyn being in the economic dark ages,
I don't think that is true either.
But all of these innovations were during the Pataki Adminstration.
>>(Pataki screws NYC because Upstate voted for him and the City did not)
>>So why did Cuomo and Clinton screw NYC?
Because we'll vote for 'em anyway. Only swing counties are gonna get the goodies.
(Ask the Assholes)
Sounds like the name of a new game show starring your favourite politicians ... or is that a "debate"? ....
--Mark
Oh what is all the fret about?
When this Fuhrer is out you'll have a more compassionate leader who will let everyone stay on the 6 so that you can all see the City Hall Station once again.
Of course, if that person is any one of the men that seem to be the likely contenders, we will get a lot more than the City Hall station returned to the people. We'll also get the crime, and the filth and all the other wonderful nostalgic things that made this city so great to live in the early 90's.
But that's a small price to pay, right? At least we'll have the City Hall station back.
>>>Just another example not only of the Fuhrer's--i mean the Mayor's paranoia, and his refusal to take
responsibility for his fascist approach to city government. <<<
Isn't it about time to can the "fuhrer" and "fascist" comments regarding Giuliani? It's getting tiresome.
Thank god you never have lived under a *truly* oppressive government, on the left like Stalin or Pol Pot, or on the right like Mussolini or Hitler.
Or do you want to return to 2200 murders a year? The mob (amazingly celebrated in junk TV like the Sopranos) back in control of the Fulton Market and Javits? Hookers and muggers ruling Times Square?
I don't like historic subway stations being closed. This mayor feels it's necessary to close them; probably the next mayor will have a different policy.
www.forgotten-ny.com
"Isn't it about time to can the "fuhrer" and "fascist" comments regarding Giuliani? It's getting tiresome."
I think we need to show some compassion towards people who can add nothing to conversations except name calling.
Alan Glick
Very well said, Mr. Walsh.
You can still tour the White House, but believe me DC is not as open as you seem to be implying.
Try visiting almost any public building in DC wearing sneakers with metal lasts, as I did. They make the metal detectors go off, and the police are none too friendly in putting you through the mill of emptying your pockets and using the hand-held detectors.
And when our Presidente visits, not only do they shut down the streets and highways for his sacred presence, they shut down the N train to Astoria when his motorcade is expected on Grand Central Parkway, lest a terrorist T/O suddenly divebomb his R46 at him.
And when our Presidente visits, not only do they shut down the streets and highways for his sacred presence, they shut down the N
train to Astoria when his motorcade is expected on Grand Central Parkway...
They've done that as far back as the Eisenhower administration.
<<<"...lest a terrorist T/O suddenly divebomb his R46 at him.>>>
When did they start putting R-46's onthe "N"? :-)
Peace
Andee
They haven't, although the R-46s did run on the N back in the late 70s.
SO there are secuirty checks in DC. Heck to get into 110 Livingstion Streetn (Hall of the Board (education) not to be confused with 130 Livingston) you need to pass through a metal detector and bags X-rayed. But all and all you have ACCESS to OUR GOVERNMENT. Heck you can explore most of the Capital Building and you don't need an appointment. Yes a security check and I can live with that.
Hey Barry: I take great offense that you refer to Mayor Guiliani as Fuhrer. To make even the remotest comparison of the mayor with Adolf Hitler is disgusting on your part. I can tell you I have no use for the Clintons but I would never refer to either of them as Fuhrer, Commissar, or any other Fascist or Communist handles. Get a hold of yourself.
Got the answer to my own question. Yesterday afternoon someone exiting the station was slashed with a razor, apparently at random by some nut. They had a cop posted today. Hope it wasn't anyone I know.
Don't worry if you thought no one was reading your previous post, I did.
(Thought no one was reading)
Nope, just figured no one knew the answer. Didn't like the answer I finally did get, but at least it wasn't a rape or murder. I've lived around here for 14 years and there have only been a couple of those, none in the subway station.
Don't Blast this because it's a sub pic and not a bus pic, Everyone should share this rare photo by me!
This is when I caught the R-142As being delivered across the GW Bridge!
Always
Trevor
They always said the GWB was built strong enough for rail traffic, though I think they had something else in mind. Any idea why the doors were left open?
It looks like they don't even have doors - or windows on the sides...
>It looks like they don't even have doors - or windows on the sides...
what college did YOU graduate from?
These didn't have the windows or doors yet, these were the shells being delivered to Kawasaki of Yonkers for the final assembly, anyone with a half a brain would be able to figure that out!
Trevor
Oh yeah, no one's gonna blast you. They'll be thanking you. Man! These are sharp pictures. Finally close ups! Why are the seats red? I thought they were supposed to be light blue just like the Redbirds.
Great photos! I've seen the cars at 180th Street yard outside the yard, but not from an up close view like this. I've never even seen this good of an interior shot from the 180th Street platforms. It's going to be nice to see these cars being tested on the tracks. I'll have to look for them when I go back home. Great photos!
We're losing the REDBIRDS for that???!?!!
Yes I know, aren't they beautiful? Much better than those Rustbirds.
of course we are! the redbirds are almost dead! besides we have move along and update technology to make lives easier. And atleast they don't corrode.
sweeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!!! those are some hot pictures. Coming from Canada? probably. coming over the GW Bridge, it has to be.
The Kawasakis are Japanese. What do they have to do with Canada? They're going from Port Newark (or Elizabeth) to Yonkers. Do you think they could use the Lincoln Tunnel instead?
BTW, if they had come from Canada, they would use the Tappan Zee Bridge, or go by rail.
Trevor - nice pix!
I guess the train was waiting at the GWB with its doors open due to the waiting lights at the toll booth being on ("we're being held here by the dispatcher - we should be moving shortly").
And to think the plan of IND service across the GWB was always a rumour. Now we have proof that it wasn't! One day, these pictures will support a legend that the IRT once served Fort Lee, NJ :)
--Mark
Looks to me as if they are BOARDING the GWB on
the MANHATTAN side and heading over to NJ...
I assume that everyone here loves mass transit, and we all know the reasons why. I want to know why there are people that are totally aganist mass transit.
For example, here in the sprawl captial of the world, hundreds of thousands people put up with traffic jams miles long. People have to wake up hours early just to get to work on time. I cross a bridge, driving to the MARTA station in the morning, and everyday, traffic is at a standstill. People complain about the traffic, but they don't want transit. What gives?
Here are a few reasons I believe people don't want transit:
1. It will bring crime to the area (is this proven?)
2. Racism (unfortunately)
3. Bring down land values (doesn't transit usually raise values?)
4. Ignorant of advantages. The thing is, people who finally try transit, find it more convienent, and they start using it. I have a few friends who are like this
What does everyone here think?
(Let's keep it objective)
All four fears are correct.
When they started the DART light rail project in Dallas, there were people opposed to it because they were sure as soon as it was open scary Negros or Mexicans from the south side of town would ride out to the suburbs, steal their furniture and take it back home with them on the train, or even worse, rob their supermarket at gunpoint and then go down to the station to wait for the next train to arrive to make their getaway.
They also thought that the area around every station would be turned into a pre-Disney Times Square, and as a result, several suburbs full of people who fall under Reason No. 2 dropped out of the program.
Now that the system is open, they're trying to figure out a way to extend it, and I know the property vaules on some apartments my uncle owns near the Mockingbird Lane station have zoomed up since the line opened four years ago. Compared to driving the Central Expressway (Dallas' answer to the Gowanus)getting downtown is a breeze.
[I assume that everyone here loves mass transit, and we all know the reasons why. I want to know why there are people that are totally aganist mass transit.
Here are a few reasons I believe people don't want transit:
1. It will bring crime to the area (is this proven?)
2. Racism (unfortunately)
3. Bring down land values (doesn't transit usually raise values?)
4. Ignorant of advantages.]
I'd add a fifth: exasperation with the subsidies that transit always requires. A transit system that covered all operating and capital costs at the fare box would be much more acceptable.
I'd add a fifth: exasperation with the subsidies that transit always requires. A transit system that covered all operating and capital costs at the fare box would be much more acceptable.
As opposed to, say, all those expressways that recover their own operating and capital costs? Listen to how suburbanites and their politicians talk: It's always "subsidizing" transit and "investing" in roadbuilding, when the reality is the exact reverse.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'll give you the Baltimore anti-rail spin:
"It will bring criminals to our neighborhoods"
Yeah, sure. They'll boost your property, carry it to the Light Rail, wait for a train (proposed 15 minute headways).
Answer: No, they'll do what they always do: Steal a car, drive to your neighborhood, steal what they want, and leave. - via the Beltway, where 15 minutes puts you 15 miles away.
What actually happened was that petty crime (shoplifting, assaults, etc.) did increase slightly around stations. The MTA did subsidize the increased police (city & counties) presence around stops, MTA police patrols were increased. The crime went back to "regular" levels.
When the levels went back to pre-Light Rail levels, the media stopped reporting it.
I think people are against mass transit because they don't want to use it, so they don't want to be bothered by it.
They don't want to be hemmed in with other people. They want to be by themselves, in their own car, away from other people. Similarly, they want to live in a detached house, not a rowhouse or apartment, and want their own backyard, not a public park.
In short, most of the U.S. tends toward the privacy end of the privacy vs. community tradeoff in lifestyle. You can't stick a transit system into an overall environment like the post-war U.S. and have it cover more than a small fraction of its costs.
Now how has transit been sold to such people? Build it, and the OTHER GUY will use it, leaving more room on the road for you.
Keep in mind the history of suburban sprawl. Sprawl as a phenomenon came about after WWII, at the height of the power of the auto and oil industries. To ensure widespread auto use and fuel consumption, these industries engaged in (1) bribing federal officials to implement the Interstate Highway System under the guise of national "defense"; (2) buying urban trolley and bus systems, and then closing them; and (3) hiring developers to build low-density housing far from city centers.
In other words, for 50 years people have been suckered into "loving" their cars.
BTW, General Motors was convicted of item (2) under the Sherman Anti-trust Act in the 1950's; the fine was about $1,000.
The Interstate Highway System was one of the greatest developing forces in our country's history. The national defense "guise" was included merely as a way of justifying federal funding, without worrying about the constitution.
Right - The Interstate Highway System was a federally-funded gift to the auto and oil industries, to ensure widespread auto use and fuel consumption. That was its ONLY purpose.
If any thought had been given to transportation as a way to move PEOPLE and GOODS (rather than just CARS and TRUCKS), then there would have been a real National Transportation System, incorporating all modes into a cohesive whole. It would have built on the inherent strengths of each mode, rather than destroying one in order to subsidize another.
The purpose was to make road travel across the country easier. Road travel is much better than rail travel. No need to adhere to an arbitrary Railroad terminal, the ability to leave the highway and go ANYWHERE. And the free use of the roads without complex arrangements and deals with railroad companies. No interstate project destroyed a major rail line. The railroads died because they failed to compete with the more superior roads.
"Free use of the roads" means free to the user, because government subsidizes the highways and their users to the max, by paying for road maintenance and keeping car and fuel prices artificially low.
Yet road users begrudge transit users any similar subsidy (or even a small percentage thereof), which gets us back to the topic.
Why the funding disparity? Because roads mean profits for the auto and oil industries, and transit does not. Because most road users are white suburbanites, and most transit users are not.
Road funding comes from gas taxes, which are paid only by road user. They also come from property taxes because EVERYONE benefits from roads. Not so for rail.
I think you are missing an important point.
1) Road were built with tax dollars are are exempt from property taxes. The massive cost of the land they occupy and the taxes someone would pay on it is the greatest subsidy: it goes on year after year.
2) Railroads were built with private dollars and pay property taxes. The government imposed regulations to make them serve unprofitable routes, on the grounds that they were a monopoly, and kept the regulations when the monopoly ended.
3) Prevented from raising rates by regulation, the railroads tried to stay profitable by cutting investment, allowing themselves to fall apart. Some times the intentionally tore up tracks to cut the value of their property, so property taxes would fall.
In short, railroad regulation and government built roads did for the transportation system what rent regulation and insured mortgages did for the housing stock.
Could things have been different? You'd probably have more parkways, fewer interstates, and most freight would move by rail before reaching its final delivery by truck. Driving would be for fun, not for everyday needs or long distance shipping. The passenger rail industry probably would have lost out to driving and airplanes in any event, but might have kept more of the mid-range market.
With subsidized road construction down and railroads deregulated, things are moving in that direction now.
Maybe "everyone" benefits from roads. Since that is a standard all-money-for-highways-none-for-transit claim, I won't ask for any supporting arguments. However, I must differ with your implied (and unstated) suggestion that only rail users benefit from a rail system.
If a rail system diverts motorists from a road, then, by definition, ALL remaining motorists on that road (plus anybody living alongside the road) MUST benefit from the resultant reduction in congestion and particulate emissions.
In oversimplified terms, suppose that I am a regular user of the Long Island Expressway. Each additional motorist who uses the LIE at the same time slows me down, which gets on my nerves and increases wear and tear on my car. This represents a cost to me. Suppose I can quantify that cost as, say, 5 cents. Now I know that each other user out there costs me 5-cents-worth of personal stress and auto maintenance.
If a rail line were to be built (or expanded), which could divert some of these other users away from the LIE, my life would become easier and less stressful. I would benefit INDIRECTLY (i.e. without actually using the rail line).
IN FACT, since each other existing road user already costs me 5 cents, it would be worth my while to pay each of them up to 4 cents to NOT be on the road. In other words, since road users WOULD benefit from the rail system, they should be asked to foot a little of the bill.
I agree. I have an equal right to drive my car. If I surrender my share of the road and take transit, I'm entitled to rent in the form of good transit. In NY, if everyone drove, no one would want to. That's my view.
"The railroads died because they failed to compete with the more superior roads."
Actually the railroads died because they failed to compete with the airlines. The airlines are still very strong even with the interstate highway system.
Oh yes, how could I forget that? But freight railroads were more killed by interstates, not airlines.
But are freight railroads really dead. Maybe in the NY metropolitan area. But if you travel out of town you can see freight trains all over the country.
Freight traffic is booming in Chicago, so much so that the congestion on the frieght lines is interfering with Metra commuter rail operations and as well as highway traffic in areas that have grade crossings.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Freight traffic isn't booming, its only booming relitive to the current system. Freight traffic today is only a fraction of what it was 50 years ago. Even thought the economy was smaller virtually ALL freight moved by train. Almost every town had some sort of rail connection and a freight station. If you want to get a ture feeling of what the rail system used to be like take the current system and multiply by 2. Since 1960 about 1/2 the railroad infrastructure has been ripped out. 4 tracks become 2, 2 track become 1, single tracks become run down and branch lines disappear. Back in the day almost everything was signaled, almost every railroad had a 4 track main somewhere on its system, every town had a station and every junction had a manned interlocking tower. The resond for todays congestion is that they ripped out too much and the steady growth of the economy has caught up with capasity. The only problem is that today with stuff like labour laws and property value new railraod construction will A) take forever and B) cost too much. So the loss to rail freight to trucks caused a general industry downsizing that the rail industry will never recover from.
its easy to see this fact if you take Jersery Transit you see spurs going off behind every factory that are all grown over and haven't been use din years, rail traffic in this area is way way down part because the shipping into the port around here is way down....
[re decline of freight rail]
[its easy to see this fact if you take Jersery Transit you see spurs going off behind every factory that are all grown over and haven't been use din years, rail traffic in this area is way way down part because the shipping into the port around here is way down....]
Freight rail hasn't so much declined as changed. In years past, most of the traffic was point-to-point, say from a factory to a warehouse. Today the focus is much more on intermodal traffic, trailer on flat car (TOFC) and container on flat car (COFC). Trucks are used at either end of the journey but not for the long stretches in between. Let's say a factory in New Jersey is shipping products to a distribution warehouse in Texas. It's less likely today that a boxcar will be loaded right at the factory. That's why the factory might have one of those abandoned sidings you see from NJ Transit. Instead, semitrailer trucks will load at the factory and go to the local intermodal yard. At the yard, the trailers will be lifted onto flat cars and will travel by rail to another intermodal yard in Texas. There, the process will be carried out in reverse, with the trailers being hauled by truck to the warehouse. COFC shipping is somewhat similar, with the containers being offloaded from ships onto flatcars, and taken to intermodal yards near their destinations for final delivery by truck.
Let's say a factory in New Jersey is shipping products to a distribution warehouse in Texas...
And more likely than not, it will probably pass through Chicago along the way.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[The railroads died because they failed to compete with the more superior roads.]
One important factor is often overlooked by people who claim that the Interstate highway system caused the decline and fall of passenger rail. Although Congress first proposed the system in 1944, the first section of Interstate didn't open until 1956 or 1957 (IIRC, a section of I-70 in Missouri). It wasn't until the early 1960s that enough of the system was open for it to be a usable transportation network on a nationwide basis. The point is that passenger rail was in decline by 1956/57, let alone the early 1960s. You might say that the Interstate system at best hastened the end of passenger rail. It certainly didn't cause passenger rail to collapse.
The post-WWII car boom started the decline of intercity passenger rail, just as the introduction of jet air travel in 1958 sounded the death knell for trans-Atlantic passenger ships. People began driving cars more, the cars themselves became more comfortable and faster, which helped the exodus from the inner city that Mr. Levitt and other home builders took advantage of.
Once out on Long Island (or west of Chicago, Bucks County, Pa., the San Fernando Valley or wherever) the homeowners started demanding improved roads to get them back into the city to go to work, so Eisenhower's Interstate proposal met with wide support. Also back then everyone followed Bob Moses' idea that if you just build one more highway, that will solve all the traffic problems. We know better now, which is one reason why mass transit has come back some since its depths 20 years ago.
Yes, but even Robert Moses, who is regarded by some as a "visionary," clearly understood that building "one more highway" would not truly SOLVE any problems, but rather would only MOVE the problem to a different place or a later time. WE know better now, but HE knew better then.
And now the folks in Ruxton-Riderwood are begging Gov. Glendening and the MTA for a station. BWA-HA-HA-HA! Let the yuppie scum drive to Lutherville...I happen to love that long hop north of Falls Rd.
BTW, what do you think will happen with light rail now that Hunt Valley Mall (less than 20 years old) is being torn down?
This sounds familiar. The 708'ers out in Schaumburg have been making noises about wanting the CTA Blue Line extended to their little corner of the world.
What cracks me up is that places like Schaumburg came into being because of people who decided that they were too good to live in the big bad city. Now they've decided that they have too much traffic on their expressways, and would like a more convenient way to make their once-a-year trip into the city for the Taste of Chicago. I guess the price of parking a sport utility vehicle in the Loop for a day finally became more than they could handle.
Of course, it's all under the guise of allowing inner-city workers to travel to their jobs of pushing brooms at Woodfield Mall. Well no shit, since anybody who pushes a broom at Woodfiled Mall for a living can't afford to actually live in Schaumburg, because the city has deliberately priced itself out of the range of such people.
And then they can't figure out why us folks in the city despise them so much. At least we're not the ones who packed up and fled to the 'burbs when a family with darker skin than ours moved into the neighborhood.
I say screw 'em. If the folks of Schaumburg want the benefits of city life, they should at least be willing to share in the responsibility of making the city a better place by living here, working here and paying taxes here.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[What cracks me up is that places like Schaumburg came into being because of people who decided that they were too good to live in the big bad city. Now they've decided that they have too much
traffic on their expressways, and would like a more convenient way to make their once-a-year trip into the city for the Taste of Chicago. I guess the price of parking a sport utility vehicle in the Loop
for a day finally became more than they could handle.
Of course, it's all under the guise of allowing inner-city workers to travel to their jobs of pushing brooms at Woodfield Mall. Well no shit, since anybody who pushes a broom at Woodfiled Mall for a living can't afford to actually live in Schaumburg, because the city has deliberately priced itself out of the range of such people.
And then they can't figure out why us folks in the city despise them so much. At least we're not the ones who packed up and fled to the 'burbs when a family with darker skin than ours moved into the
neighborhood.]
It sounds like you're being a bit unfair to the residents of Schaumburg and suburbanites in general. Surely not all of them, or anything close to all, moved out of Chicago, or other cities if you're talking about suburbs in general, due to fears of racial change. Mass suburbanization is a rather venerable phenomenon by now. Many suburbs throughout the country are well within their second or even third generation of residents. In some cases, people whose parents or grandparents moved to inner ring suburbs in the postwar years are now themselves moving to more distant suburbs. Based on what little I know about the area, I suspect that's the case with Schaumburg. Whatever the case, by and large you're not dealing with "urban refugees."
And let's not forget that people move to suburbs for many reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with racial fears (not to mention the fact that more and more suburbanites are nonwhite themselves). The desire for a house and yard of one's own, in a lower-density neighborhood, is one of those things that's deeply ingrained in most people of all races. Sure, many people prefer the urban lifestyle, which is fine for them, but that's not the most common way, at least not in the United States.
Proximity to jobs is another big reason why many people prefer suburban living. More and more jobs are found in the suburbs today, and once again this isn't a new phenomenon. Reverse commuting from cities is usually difficut if not downright impossible. You can hardly blame people for wanting to live closer to their jobs. And lastly, suburban living tends to be quite convenient in most areas. I live in a fairly distant Long Island suburb, over 60 miles from Manhattan. Yet it's not remote by any means. We're within 15 to 20 minutes of a major shopping mall, 10 minutes of a variety of big-box superstores, five minutes of a couple supermarkets, and so on. And I doubt this convenience is at all atypical for suburbs today. You won't find it in many cities.
[I live in a fairly distant Long Island suburb, over 60 miles from Manhattan. Yet it's not remote by any means. We're within 15 to 20 minutes of a major shopping mall, 10 minutes of a variety of big-box superstores, five minutes of a couple supermarkets, and so on. And I doubt this convenience is at all atypical for suburbs today. You won't find it in many cities. ]
Your claim that this is desirable is ludicrous. Your super stores, super markets and super malls not only lack character but are destroying whatever character may have existed in your area (although I doubt any ever did). You can forget about ever having a mom and pop store, that's for sure. You claim convenience by being within a 20 minute drive of all these places. Driving is never a convenience. You may think you're enjoying the drive to your mall but studies have shown that even when I driver considers himself relaxed he is actually in a high state of tension. Driving racks the nerves! Not only that but if you can't afford a car or are too young to drive one you're stuck. That's hardly convenient. Meanwhile, in the city, I can run down the stairs of my apartment and within one block I have a grocery store, a fruitstand, a newstand, a movie theater, a barber shop, a hair salon, a laundrymat, a pizza place, a Japanese restaurant, a falafel shop, a subway stop, 2 bus stops, a billiards place, a quite a few friends. That's what I call convenience.
[[I live in a fairly distant Long Island suburb, over 60 miles from Manhattan. Yet it's not remote by any means. We're within 15 to 20 minutes of a major shopping mall, 10 minutes of a variety of big-box superstores, five minutes of a couple supermarkets, and so on. And I doubt this convenience is at all atypical for suburbs today. You won't find it in many cities.]
[Your claim that this is desirable is ludicrous. Your super stores, super markets and super malls not only lack character but are
destroying whatever character may have existed in your area (although I doubt any ever did). You can forget about ever having a mom and pop store, that's for sure. You claim convenience by being within a 20 minute drive of all these places. Driving is never a convenience. You may think you're enjoying the drive to your mall but studies have shown that even when I driver considers himself relaxed he is actually in a high state of tension. Driving racks the nerves! Not only that but if you can't afford a car or are too young to drive one you're stuck. That's hardly convenient. Meanwhile, in the city, I can run down the stairs of my apartment and within one block I have a grocery store, a fruitstand, a newstand, a movie theater, a barber shop, a hair salon, a laundrymat, a pizza place, a Japanese restaurant, a falafel shop, a subway stop, 2 bus stops, a billiards place, a quite a few friends. That's what I call convenience.]
I'm sorry to have to break this news to you, but the Nineteenth Century is over ... well, outside of New York it's over. Like it or not, superstores and supermarkets are a fact of life today. And you know what? I think that's terrific. Dunno about you, but I like the ability to shop in large, well-stocked stores with reasonable prices and ample parking right in front. And I really don't give a flying [deleted] about the demise of the "friendly" neighborhood store. While I'm a long way from Social Security, I'm old enough to remember many places like that. Maybe it's just my memory, but I don't have fond recollections of the kindly old shopkeepers. What I do remember are cramped stores with high prices and limited hours. That's just what you'll find in NYC today, although now you'll usually get hostile employees to boot. Sorry, but I'll take today's superstores, and so will most people in the country - except in NYC, but that's to be expected because the city is _different_ (or thinks it is).
Now, lest I be misinterpreted, this is not some anti-transit diatribe. Transit certainly has its purposes, and I'll be the first to acknowledge that driving can be a royal pain. But it is ludicrous to expect that the transit solutions which work pretty well in NYC and other large cities can be made to work in suburban areas. Without urban densities, transit is a near-useless money pit. I can see that very easily in Suffolk County, every time a Suffolk Transit bus goes by. If a bus has as many as three or four passengers, it's a remarkable sight. Quite frequently they're empty.
In the suburbs, new superstores are driving old chain stores and strip malls out of business. Their buildings are being re-leased, at knock down prices, to the kind of diverse businesses NYC used to have.
In NYC, where communities are "protected" from new commercial space, it is in short supply, and rents are soaring, driving any stores not catering to the "too-wealthy-to-care-what-it-costs" crowd out of business. Recently, I heard of a store in Park Slope that closed because the landlord wanted $11,000 per month for an 1,800 square foot space.
[I like the ability to shop in large, well-stocked stores with reasonable prices and ample parking right in front. ]
You are too easily brainwashed by television commercials (how many hours of tv a day do you watch?). No clear-headed thinker likes these ugly behemoths surrounded by their vast expanses of expressionless concrete. Not only do these monoliths contribute to the decline of our environment but they are also the root cause of our distraught youth. These shopping mall youths must rely on often absent parents to take them anywhere thereby causing these youths to become isolated and anti-social and even violent. Your selfish paradise is causing countless hells for the children of America.
Large new stores cause poverty too. Low prices allow people to be working class or poor and still live well. In contrast, if you limit commercial activities to botiques and gourmet stores, you force people to stop being poor and ignorant, thereby eradicating poverty and improving the culture.
More importantly, since most of those who shop at stores where goods like toilet paper, diapers and peanut butter are sold in large sizes are families with children, keeping them out improves the gene pool by making it more expensive for the inferior people to breed.
For that reason, we should also eliminate gauche "big transit," and put something classier -- at a $5 per ride price in its place.
A Treatise Supporting the Mass Destruction of the Suburbs
by Michele Deniken
I don't agree 100% with what the author says...
...but 95% would be pretty close. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
THATS WHAT IS WRONG WITH SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA ( NOT JUST LOS ANGELES )
Made my day!
Thanks,
Andee
As someone who has made a conscious, analytical decision to live in a rowhouse in Brooklyn, yes I think its a better enviornment to live my way and raise my children.
But some of the anti-suburb rhetoric going around these days is just as extreme and some of the ant-city rhetoric of the 1950s. It's ridiculous.
I have a Ford Advertizement from life magazine in the 1950s, showing (on one page) how the unhealthy and depressed (beaten down) neighborhoods of the city led to children growing up bad. But now, the other page says, there is an "escape to the greenbelt" where children can be raised in a happy and moral environment. Ford makes this possible, it says.
Perhaps ridiculous anti-suburb rhetoric is just fair play, but we don't have to believe it.
02/09/2000
Sounds like she's having a PMS fit !
Bill Newkirk
Actually, a lot of her comments can just as easily be twisted 180 degrees around. Sofa you can't sit on? Only one of my relatives ever fit that category, and they lived in a big old house in the city - only ones rich enough to have a formal living room as well as a family sitting room!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, my favorite line is:
>>>>The suburbs is young newlyweds who dream of buying a house so they can feel that they own something, but soon enough, the house owns them, and soon enough they spend Saturdays at Home Depot, buying wood protector for their deck, though no one ever comes to visit. <<<
I have a friend who spent 27 years of his life in Greenpoint, and the next 15 in Park Slope. Then, he got married. Off to Cold Spring Harbor they went, and I haven't seen 'em since...he says 'as soon as we have the house ready'.
www.forgotten-ny.com
To anyone who dislikes the changes that suburbia and the malls have wreaked on the USA, I recommend two books by urban planner James Kunstler (no relation to the commie lawyer): The Geography Of Nowhere and Home From Nowhere.
Although he hasn't been talking about it lately, Al Gore (whom I otherwise distrust) has spoken about the malling and sprawling of America in the past.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The only thing worse than a massive enclosed mall out in the suburbs is a massive enclosed mall in the middle of downtown. One can argue that the suburbs, even the sprawling plastic wastelands like Chicago's Schaumburg and Naperville, have their place in today's society. But what is indefensible is when downtowns attempt to fight back by turning themselves into exactly what they are trying to fight.
One of my favorite books that deals with this topic is City: Rediscovering the Center by William H. Whyte. The primary focus of this book is how the physical design of streets, sidewalks and public spaces impacts the quality of life in urban business districts. Most of the book is focused on New York, although he cites examples of many other cities as well. He also has chapters that deal with suburban sprawl and urban gentrification, and his exhaustive research turns a number of popular misconceptions on their heads.
Here's an exceprt from Chapter 22, "How to Dullify Downtown":
The lines are getting blurred. Suburban office centers are imitating the center city. The center city is imitating suburban office parks. This may be overstating the point but a real question is being posed. Where will the center go? There are two contrary trends. On one hand there are cities that are tightening up their downtown, reinforcing the role of the street, and in general reasserting the dominance of the center. But a growing number are going in the opposite direction. They are loosening up the structure; gearing it more toward the car; taking the pedestrian off the street, and retailing too. They are doing almost everything, indeed, to eliminate the structured advantages of the center city they inherited.
As a way of distinguishing which camp a city is in, I have prepared a checklist of eight questions. No one city scores yes on all eight, but quite a number score high. Conversely, some cities score very low. There seems to be a strong tendancy to go decisively in one direction or the other.
1. Was much of downtown successfully razed under urban renewal?
2. Is at least half of downtown devoted to parking?
3. Have municipal and county offices been relocated to a campus?
4. Have streets been de-mapped for superblock developments?
5. Have the developments included an enclosed shopping mall?
6. Have they been linked together with skyways?
7. Have they been linked together with underground concourses?
8. Is an automated people-mover system being planned?
The higher the score, the more likely the city is to be one that has lost its ego, its sense of pride of place, its awareness of where it has come from and where it is going. It is a city with so little assurance that it is prey to what could be billed as bold new approaches, and to architectural acrobatics of all kinds.
Unfortunately, the book appears to be out of print at this time, but I highly recommend it. So if you see it at Strand or elsewhere, be sure to pick it up. Paperback version is only about $15 new.
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>>1. Was much of downtown successfully razed under urban renewal?
2. Is at least half of downtown devoted to parking?
3. Have municipal and county offices been relocated to a campus?
4. Have streets been de-mapped for superblock developments?
5. Have the developments included an enclosed shopping mall?
6. Have they been linked together with skyways?
7. Have they been linked together with underground concourses?
8. Is an automated people-mover system being planned? <<<<
NYC scores high on many of these. It can't be called Mallville USA, though. In most cases when NYC streets have been demapped, as in the Lower East Side, it was to construct acres and acres of housing projects. The worth of those is another topic altogether and strays far from transit....
www.forgotten-ny.com
Luckily for New York, the sheer scale of the city is such that one bad development will not sap the life out of Manhattan. Small and medium-sized cities are most vulnerable, since their downtowns are small enough that a single enclosed mall or other superblock development can be a death blow to the rest of the business district.
Jacksonville, Florida is a good example... With the exception of the skywalks and underground concourses, the city scores yes on every question. The truly sad part is that at one point in Jacksonville's history, it had a thriving downtown and some excellent home-grown architecture. Now, with the exception of a few mediocre high-rises, an unprofitable festival marketplace and a lot of boarded up storefronts, their downtown is almost entirely devoted to parking. Of course, the #1 reason people give in surveys for not going downtown is the "lack of parking." Go figure.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sounds like Downtown Montreal, which I thought was great.
Peter, we usually agree but in this case, I have to say that the rise of the malls has made for a characterless suburbia. In Nassau County, the south shore is Mallville, USA, while the north shore (to be sure, it's a lot richer) has retained more of its character.
I too prefer the neighborhood mom and pop store. I worked in Nassau County between 1992 and 1999 and while I marveled at the sheer scope of what's available at a typical suburban King Kullen, I developed no love for the malls, with their sprawling parking lots and sidewalkless property. Gimme the Korean guy on the corner any day....
www.forgotten-ny.com
[I have to say that the rise of the malls has made for a characterless suburbia. In Nassau County, the south shore is Mallville, USA, while the north shore (to be sure, it's a lot richer) has retained more of its character.]
A mix of retailing seems to be the key. While I may be a fan of malls and superstores, I am not an enemy of traditional downtowns. They serve their purposes, just as do the malls and the big boxes. And there's no inherent reason why all of these retailing types can't co-exist.
Where I disagree with the anti-mall crowd is in blaming the malls and superstores for the death or decline of some downtowns. I believe that periods of local economic weakness and the influx of the poor killed off more downtowns than mall competition. Economically thriving areas can support healthy downtowns even with superstores and malls out on the highway. Economically weak areas cannot.
Another point deals with the benefits of a mix of retail. In an ideal situation, customers should have a reasonably convenient choice of malls, superstores, downtowns and small neighborhood stores. Granted, that's not true everywhere; in some parts of Long Island, in particular, only the first two types are available in any abundance. But the situation's even worse when the malls and superstores are kept out, and people are forced to patronize the neighborhood stores - which, given the lack of competition, are likely to be expensive, dirty and poorly stocked. Can you say "Manhattan supermarkets?" Or how about "Brooklyn?"
"sprawling parking lots and sidewalkless property"
I don't know why some people on this board (and I'm responding to them all, not just you particularly) think that there are only two models for urban retailing, with no options inbetween: either tiny and expensive "mom-and-pop" stores with a miserable selection of goods and indifferent service or ugly "big box" stores with a huge display sign, offset from the street and surrounded by an enormous parking lot just like in the suburbs.
At least here in Chicago, there are real honest-to-Betsy supermarkets in densely-populated neighborhoods that are built right up to the sidewalk and have little or no street parking. I can think of at least four just off the top of my head: a Jewel/Osco at Clark and Division next to a subway entrance, a Treasure Island at the same intersection, a Dominicks at Fullerton and Sheffield next to an L station, and a Treasure Island on North near LaSalle. As the locations and the proximity to rapid transit shows, all these stores are in areas with high population density and very little on-street parking where many people don't even own a car, like Manhattan.
Walgreens is a drug-store chain here in Chicago that has always had city locations but has been particularly expanding as of late into denser neighborhoods, including new downtown locations. Walgreens is working with the city regarding design and has been building locations that are pedestrian-friendly and with smaller parking lots to the side or back of the store. The downtown locations are parking-less, of course, and are located in the first floor of existing office buildings.
Also, there are several other large chain stores that have moved into old (and long-empty) neighborhood department store locations or into new buildings made to look like old department stores. No acres of parking, obviously.
Isn't there a K-mart in an old department store in Manhattan? K-mart locations in the suburbs and outer parts of the city are universally the typical huge-parking-lot stores with enormous tacky K-MART signs that are totally inappropriate for urban neighborhoods. Yet K-mart management didn't blindly insist on such a "one size fits all" store when it came to Manhattan.
And speaking of department stores, what ARE major department stores -- Macy's and Bloomingdales in New York, Marshall Fields and Carson Pirie Scott in Chicago, Filene's in Boston, Strawbridge and Clothier's and Wanamaker's in Philadelphia -- but a 19th Century form of the big box retailer, just built to the curb and without parking? Or are they not "soul-less" because they're old, a sort of reverse statute of limitations?
So, given that large-scale retailing in urban areas should be built -- and has (at least in recent years) been built -- to be compatible with the pedestrian orientation and the architecture of such areas, what else about it makes it so "soul-less" and "character-less" compared to the saintly corner bodega or to Macy's??
[At least here in Chicago, there are real honest-to-Betsy supermarkets in densely-populated neighborhoods that are built right up to the sidewalk and have little or no street parking. I can think of at least four just off the top of my head: a Jewel/Osco at Clark and Division next to a subway entrance, a Treasure Island at the same intersection, a Dominicks at Fullerton and Sheffield next to an L station, and a Treasure Island on North near LaSalle. As the locations and the proximity to rapid transit shows, all these stores are in areas with high population density and very little on-street parking where many people don't even own a car, like Manhattan.]
But that's Chicago. We were talking about New York. Apples and oranges, you know.
I don't pretend to know precisely why New York has such a bias against large stores. As you noted elsewhere in the thread, Chicago isn't that way, so I doubt the explanation lies in some universal trait found in large cities. My best guess is that New York's bias results from bribery on the part of small-store owners, the sheer stupidity of the City Council's members, and most of all from that pervasive belief that New York Is Different. I'm referring to the wholly idiotic attitude that the normal rules of society, economics, and culture, if not the laws of physics, don't apply within city limits. In other words, many New Yorkers look at the spread of superstores and supermarkets elsewhere in the country, and decide that they've got to be different because this is New York. While I classify this belief on a level with Roswell aliens and Elvis-is-alive, it's all too pervasive in the city. And millions of New Yorkers suffer when they pay inflated prices for inferior merchandise.
You should be thankful that the people in Chicago aren't as ignorant as New Yorkers.
[Walgreens is a drug-store chain here in Chicago that has always had city locations but has been particularly expanding as of late
into denser neighborhoods, including new downtown locations.]
Rite-Aid and CVS recently have opened a number of large Walgreen-style drug stores in New York. Walgreens itself is more or less restricted to the suburbs. IIRC, Rite-Aid and CVS have taken advantage of a loophole in the zoning code that allows them to open city stores, just like Home Depot has done.
[Isn't there a K-mart in an old department store in Manhattan? K-mart locations in the suburbs and outer parts of the city are
universally the typical huge-parking-lot stores with enormous tacky K-MART signs that are totally inappropriate for urban neighborhoods. Yet K-mart management didn't blindly insist on such a "one size fits all" store when it came to Manhattan.]
You're correct. K-Mart opened a store a couple of years ago in the old Wanamaker's store near Astor Place. They opened another store next to Penn Station at about the same time. I doubt they will be opening any more, as I've heard that neither store is terribly profitable.
[I don't pretend to know precisely why New York has such a bias against large stores. As you noted elsewhere in the thread, Chicago isn't that way, so I doubt the explanation lies in some universal trait found in large cities.]
Actually Chicago and other large US cities are the exception, not New York. So the explanation that is needed is why do these large US cities allow themselves to be destroyed from the inside? The rest of the world (ex: Toronto, Buenos Aires, London, Paris) have thriving city centers based on the small-store model. New York is different because it is one of the only International Cities in the US. That is, it is a city based on the more viable and sustainable International Model of Urban Development.
[My best guess is that New York's bias results from bribery on the part of small-store owners]
Small-store owners can't even come close to amassing the kind of political money capable of the monstrous corporations.
[I'm referring to the wholly idiotic attitude that the normal rules of society, economics, and culture, if not the laws of physics, don't apply within city limits.]
Another example of your brainwashing. In fact, the suburbs are not normal. They are unsustainable and cancerous, especially in the face of global population growth. The normal rules of society, economics, and culture if defined at the majority level are much closer to New York's model than the rest of the country. Think Globally, don't be blinded by your suburban jail.
See what us City Planners have to put up with? Wealthy people who try to dictate their tastes on us phillistines, not to mention the poor slobs who can barely afford toilet paper as it is. It's the new liberal poverty reduction program -- raise the cost of living high enough and limit the number of low wage jobs, and no one will be able to afford to be poor.
Just so happens that we received 1997 census of retail trade just this afternoon (yes, it does take three years). It is tabulated under the new North American Industry Classification system -- restaurants are no longer combined with stores.
The U.S. averaged about $9,000 in retail sales per capita. The figures for the outer boroughs? Bronx $2,800, Brooklyn $3,500, Queens $4,400 -- the three lowest in New York State. Much higher for the suburbs outside the city, especially for those right on the border.
Now some of this is accounted for by lower incomes, but not much. Some of it is accounted for by auto sales. I'll have to take out auto and put the data per $million of income rather than per capita to adjust, as I have in the past. But the bottom line will still be, as in 1992, 1987, 1982, etc. New Yorkers shopping in the suburbs.
You want to ban all stores over 2,000 square feet -- and close all exisitng such stores, from the suburban Walmarts to Macys Herald Square, then fine. As it is, if they are going to locate anywhere, I'd rather have them in the city, accessible by transit (for the workers more than the customers) and paying taxes to provide service for me.
Ban stores over 2000 square feet? Well, there goes the little downtown hobby shop I'm involved with - it's got 2200.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That Wanamaker's store at Astor place must have been rebuilt after the infamous 1956 fire and resulting "Wanamaker's Washout" of the IRT trackbed there.
Regarding the stores you mention here in Chicago, I think the thing that makes them as non-intrusive as they are is the fact that they blend in well enough with the surrounding neighborhoods. The best example of this would be the new Dominick's at Sheffield and Fullerton right next to the L stop. It works well for a number of reasons:
1) The store is on two floors, plus another floor for the stock room and service areas. This cuts down the required footprint of the building by two-thirds.
2) The building comes right up to the property line, maintaining the pedestrian scale of the neighborhood. (Contrast this with the small strip mall diagonally across the street, which greets pedestrians with a huge parking lot.)
3) The Dominck's store has large windows all along the sidewalk, allowing people to see into and out of the store, as opposed to putting a huge blank wall on the sidewalk.
4) The building has a variety of uses that allow it to generate activity 24 hours a day: The Dominick's store which is open 24 hours, student residences for DePaul University on the floors above, and a parking garage adjacent to the store.
5) The building is mostly brick, which fits in well with the surrounding context of the other nearby buildings.
Hats off to Dominick's and DePaul University for demonstrating that it is possible for large stores to fit well within existing urban neighborhoods.
The opposite end of the spectrum would probably be represented by those banal strip malls on Clybourn Avenue, or that hideous monstrosity at the corner of Clark and Halsted which houses Linens & Things, Marshall's and a huge parking garage. I think the prospect of examples like that are what most people in New York are so horrified by, and they should be horrified.
To take the Clark & Halsted example, the developers of that building leveled an entire city block to construct a prefabricated box that utterly saps the life out of its surrounding streets and sidewalks. Five-story blank walls cover every side of the building, and the only windows are at the small entrances on either side. To add insult to injury, the architects make a feeble attempt at tying the building into its context by placing a glass elevator inside a garish circular element at the corner. This building appears as if it was mistakenly built at the wrong adress after missing its intended destintation of Gurnee Mills.
If this is the type of development New Yorkers are steadfastly opposed to, then I say more power to them. It's a sad commentary on Chicago when we lay down and allow our neighborhoods to be raped in this fashion.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[Regarding the stores you mention here in Chicago, I think the thing that makes them as non-intrusive as they are is the fact that they blend in well enough with the surrounding neighborhoods. The best example of this would be the new Dominick's at Sheffield and Fullerton right next to the L stop.
(interesting description of how the store is well suited to its neighborhood)
The opposite end of the spectrum would probably be represented by those banal strip malls on Clybourn Avenue, or that hideous monstrosity at the corner of Clark and Halsted which houses Linens & Things, Marshall's and a huge parking garage. I think the prospect of examples like that are what most people in New York are so horrified by, and they should be horrified.]
I keep thinking of the old expression "throwing the baby out with the bath water." New York's zoning and land-use rules indeed will keep out ugly places like the Clark and Halsted monstrosity. So far so good. But the bad news is that these rules also would exclude perfectly appropriate stores like the Dominick's at Sheffield and Fullerton.
I'm really SICK of people touting the "advantages" of the mom and pop stores as opposed to the big boxes. If the Mom and pops were so good, they'd be able to compete with the more superior big boxes, as opposed to folding out. The only people who support the blocking of big boxes in New York City are the subhumans in the City Council (they certainly aren't Homo-Sapiens, "Wise Man") and the Mom and Pop lobby. The only bad thing I can say about suburbs is obviously longer commute and the immobility of people my age. Even people who have a license have to beg their parents for a car. I really don't care as I have no use for one. I live in what I consider to be a good blend of both worlds. The Manhattan Bridge excepted.
Ahh, yet another fallacy of suburbanism.
The truth is that the so-called "mom-and-pop" stores didn't simply die out; they were hunted down and killed by the mega-stores and the politicians who pander to them. Often literally, especially in the case of Wal-Mart.
When Wal-Mart, to take one example, decides to move into a given area, here is usually what happens:
1) Wal-Mart Corportation will take a thorough inventory of existing independent retailers within a given region, taking note of what they sell, how much they sell it for, etc.
2) Upon opening, the Wal-Mart stores will saturate the local market with goods and prices specifically selected to compete with the local independent retailers, based on their previous research. Most Wal-Mart stores undercut their prices so low that they actually operate at a loss for the first year or so of business, usually ample time to eliminate any local competition.
3) New stores will also hire far more staff than they need, partly to lure employees away from other retailers and also to overwhelm customers with artificially high levels of customer service.
4) Once most local competition is eliminated, a typical Wal-Mart store will then raise its prices by an average of 33% and lay off a significant portion of its staff.
5) In many cases, Wal-Mart will then shut down one or more of its own stores within a region, forcing customers to drive even further for basic goods.
What is left in its wake is a 200,000 square-foot empty shell of a store surrounded by 18-20 acres of asphalt, along with the corpse of a downtown business district that took generations to build and less than five years to destroy.
This is not free-market capitalism. This is rape and plunder. Unfortunately, this is fairly typical of most big boxes. And the truly sad part is that it has become so commonplace, most people have become brainwashed into believing that this is what they want.
This is not to say all national chains are evil; retailers like Sears, Penny's, and even newer chains like The Gap have managed to successfully integrate their stores into existing urban business districts without resorting to scorched-earth practices.
Companies like Wal-Mart are nothing more than predators who derive their profits only by means of the death and destruction of their competition. In another age, the feds would consider such actions a violation of anti-trust laws, but apparently this is no longer the case. It's not surprising, really, given the fact that Sam Walton was the largest contributer to the Clinton campaign, and that most politicians tent to represent suburban districts who reap the sales tax rewards of the big boxes. The Feds would much rather take on a much more politically vilified bogeyman such as Microsoft than going after the local Wal-Mart store where Aunt Gussie and Uncle Jeb buy their polyester slacks and kitty litter.
Recommended reading:
Cities Back From The Edge: New Life for Downtown by Roberta Brandes Gratz with Norma Mintz
City: Rediscovering the Center by William H. Whyte
The Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs
Sierra Club Challenge to Sprawl Campaign
-- David
Chicago, IL
Nassau County has many more small stores, relative to the income of its population, than Brooklyn. And, of course, more large stores. Stopping something doesn't get you something else.
[Nassau County has many more small stores, relative to the income of its population, than Brooklyn. And, of course, more large stores. Stopping something doesn't get you something else.]
All this talk about superstores and malls vs. downtowns got me thinking about my home town - Waterbury, Connecticut, population about 100,000. Downtown Waterbury's clearly in a bad way today. It's not quite dead yet ... but if it were a person, his relatives would be urging him to make a living will. Waterbury didn't have many superstores or a large mall until the last couple of years, by which time downtown already was circling the drain. A small mall, since demolished, and a few strip malls (doesn't anyone call them "shopping plazas" anymore?) were built in the late 1960s, but didn't have much effect on downtown.
During the 1970s, in other words after the first phase of mall/plaza construction, Waterbury's industrial base nearly collapsed. Its three huge brass mills, which together had employed at least a third of the working population, shut down within a few years of one another. Many working-clas people fled Waterbury for greener pastures. At the same time, a major influx of poor, largely welfare-dependent people kept the city's population relatively stable. And it was in the late 1970's and early 1980's, just as deindustrialization really hit in full force and the influx of poor became a near-torrent, that downtown Waterbury began spiraling into the abyss.
I'd say we have an interesting cause-and-effect scenario before us. It surely looks as if downtown Waterbury suffered not because of mall/plaza development, but because the city lost so many of the people who could afford to shop. Downtown survived suburban-style shopping, but not the huge demographic and economic change that accompanied deindustrialization. And I have more than a suspicion that similar things have happened in many other places. When we lament the decline of traditional downtowns, we ought to look at economic factors, not necessarily at the number of strip malls and superstores in the area.
Peter, any signs of revival in Waterbury? I'm sure the city has some physical assets, and its in the richest state in the country -- one with a hugh labor shortage. Anyone from Waterbury who wants a job can take a train down to the I-95 corridor and get one.
[Peter, any signs of revival in Waterbury? I'm sure the city has some physical assets, and its in the richest state in the country -- one with a hugh labor shortage. Anyone from Waterbury who wants a job can take a train down to the I-95 corridor and get one.]
There are some signs, but nothing overwhelming. A large new mall opened a couple of years ago, along with some nearby big-box stores; talk about ironies, they were built on the site once occupied by the largest of the city's brass mills. Yet the site of the old mall remains vacant more than a year after its demolition. Several redevelopment plans, the most recent one involving a Lowe's home center, haven't gone anywhere. There has been no office construction to speak of and very little new industrial construction.
On a positive note, I get the impression that the rate of neighborhood deterioration has slowed down considerably. Waterbury still has some decent working-class neighborhoods. In that respect, it stands in quite some contrast to Hartford, New Haven and Bridgeport. Given the lack of any significant expansion in the local economy, except for relatively low-paying retail jobs, I would expect that many residents commute from Waterbury to jobs elsewhere in the state (heck, I commuted from Waterbury to Manhattan from 1993 to 1997!) 2000 census figures should be interesting.
Ah, the Brass City. I presume you commuted by train, no?
[Ah, the Brass City. I presume you commuted by train, no?]
Not all the way from Waterbury. The only evening rush hour train out of Grand Central doesn't get one into Waterbury until almost 9 pm, with a connection in Bridgeport. For most of the period, I drove into Westchester County and got the Metro-North Harlem line. That combination generally got me home about 7:15. I only went directly from Waterbury on a few occasions, usually during bad weather.
Finally, in early 1997 I got fed up with driving 50 miles into Westchester and then catching a train for an hour's ride, and I started taking the Bonanza bus directly from Waterbury. It was convenient but extremely expensive - close to $400 per month IIRC. After a few months of that, I solved the problem once and for all by getting married and moving to Long Island ... except now I'm at the mercies of the LIRR :-(
I've been driving 49 miles, one way, to work for 12 years. It still doesn't bother me. There's no traffic early in the morning, and it's usually not too bad in the afternoon. During that time, I have seen the Mousetrap (the I-25/I-70 junction) completely rebuilt and reconfigured; the I-25/I-76 junction rebuilt; HOV lanes added to I-25 heading north out of downtown; and now the Southwest light rail corridor being built. And it's kept my Jeep's engine young and oiltight even with it approaching 385,000 miles.
P. S. I'm still happily single.
[I've been driving 49 miles, one way, to work for 12 years. It still doesn't bother me.]
Long distance driving usually doesn't bother me either. What became intolerable about my former commuting pattern from Waterbury was driving 50 miles each way and THEN having to spend an hour on the train. There was something about the two phases of my trip to work that made it very difficult to take. A longer, single-phase trip would've been easier.
Connecticut may be the richest state in the country (and other states, such as Texas, California and New Jersey have made the same claim), but it has:
Many depressed older industrialized cities: Bridgeport, Hartford, New Haven, Waterbury, Danbury;
Many wealthy 'old money' towns: Greenwich, New Canaan, Danbury, Madison, Guilford;
Many cities that have rough sections, but also have revitalized other sections: Stamford, Norwalk, New London.
In other words, it's just like every other state in the country. 'Rich' states can have 'poor' cities and vice versa.
Then there's New Britain and the Stanley Works.
[Then there's New Britain and the Stanley Works.]
New Britain's not too bad a place. It has some rough sections (what city of 75,000 doesn't?), but all in all is a decent city.
Your mention of New Britain made me think of that thread concerning Robert Moses and his alleged destruction of the Bronx. The building of Connecticut routes 9 and 72 through New Britain (late 1960's - early 1970's) caused, in relative and maybe even absolute terms, FAR more extensive neighborhood destruction than anything resulting from the Cross-Bronx Expressway. One of my vivid childhood memories is riding in the car with my mother through New Britain after the completion of the condemnation phase but before the start of actual construction. It was truly an awesome and maybe even disturbing sight, block after block of debris-filled lots. Yet New Britain survived. The fact that parts of the Bronx didn't, means to me that more factors were involved beyond the Cross-Bronx's construction.
Oops, I mentioned Danbury twice. That should be DARIEN as one of the wealthy 'old money' towns.
Wal Mart hasn't made inroads in NYC. Do they intend to? Have we succeeded in fending them off or have they yet to mount a beachhead?
It's rather doubtful that Wal-Mart would attempt to move into the city itself, for a number of reasons.
First of all, particulary within Manhattan, there simply isn't enough land available. And the idea of retrofitting an an older building for a Wal-Mart store simply doesn't fit their corporate formula, and it's doubtful that they would be able or willing to aquire and clear the amount of land required for a typical store.
Also, and this is just speculation, I think local opposition would probably be too strong. The opposition that greeted K-Mart when they opened their store in lower Manhattan would be nothing compared to the wrath Wal-Mart would face.
If anything, I think the outer boroughs would be most vulerable to a Wal-Mart invasion, as a number of other big boxes have already moved in. Target would probably move in first if they haven't already done so, as they seem to have shown more interest in building stores in urban areas.
Here in Chicago, Target has a fairly new store in a former industrial area at Elston and Logan Boulevard.
(Here's an interesting ditty about how politics work in Chicago: Local department store Marshall Field's was famous for their Frango brand of chocolate mints, which were made right at Fields' flagship location on State Street. One day, Fields' parent company, Dayton-Hudson, announces that Frango mints will no longer be made on State Street but outsourced to a company in Pennsylvania. All the former Frango workers were abruptly laid off, and a huge public outcry resulted. In the meantime, Target, also a Dayton-Hudson subsidiary, was seeking to expand its Elston Avenue store and had filed a routine building permit. After the Frango blow-up, Target suddenly found that its building permit had been denied with little or no explanation by City Hall. The Dayton-Hudson folks in Minneapolis had failed to take into account how things work in this town. Like I said in another posting, everything here is political.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Don't forget that Wal-Mart has fought to the death to avoid any unionization of their store employees. Opening up a store in New York City would be a lightning rod for unionization activity, and the company is scared to death of a `domino effect' at other stores, mainly those in the northern states and California that have opened in the last decade.
The risk outweighs any benefit moving into the city would provide, so they're not going to do it.
Excellent point. I hadn't thought of that.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[It's rather doubtful that Wal-Mart would attempt to move into the city itself, for a number of reasons.
First of all, particulary within Manhattan, there simply isn't enough land available. And the idea of retrofitting an an older building
for a Wal-Mart store simply doesn't fit their corporate formula, and it's doubtful that they would be able or willing to aquire and clear the amount of land required for a typical store.
Also, and this is just speculation, I think local opposition would probably be too strong. The opposition that greeted K-Mart when they opened their store in lower Manhattan would be nothing compared to the wrath Wal-Mart would face.
If anything, I think the outer boroughs would be most vulerable to a Wal-Mart invasion, as a number of other big boxes have already moved in. Target would probably move in first if they haven't already done so, as they seem to have shown more interest in building stores in urban areas.]
Target in fact opened a store in Queens about a year ago. They've got another one planned, I believe at a soon-to-be-vacated Stern's site on Queens Boulevard. There might be more. Target's also made a big move into Long Island and New Jersey. K-Mart continues to rule the city itself.
Wal-Mart so far has stayed out of the city. Their closest store is in Westbury, on Long Island. In addition to the real estate issues you've noted, Wal-Mart has a rural and small-town corporate culture (yes, such things do exist) that probably makes them somewhat reluctant to enter large urban markets. That might change, however, as the company's traditional market areas become saturated.
As long as the city makes it difficult to open large stores, Walmart and others will be content to have city residents drive to the suburbs to shop, where the jobs and tax revenues can go to "deserving" people.
Surveys show that hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers already shop at Walmart, Costco, BJ's, etc. And at suburban supermarkets. One such survey was commissioned by Ruth Messinger, who opposed a plan to make it easier to build stores in the city and was trying to prove the opposite. To her credit, she fessed up and published the results, but did not change her position.
I'm sure that's true in Chicago as well. But then, with welfare ending there isn't anyone in Chicago that needs an entry-level retail job, is there?
[As long as the city makes it difficult to open large stores, Walmart and others will be content to have city residents drive to the
suburbs to shop, where the jobs and tax revenues can go to "deserving" people.
Surveys show that hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers already shop at Walmart, Costco, BJ's, etc. And at suburban supermarkets. One such survey was commissioned by Ruth Messinger, who opposed a plan to make it easier to build stores in the city and was trying to prove the opposite. To her credit, she fessed up and published the results, but did not change her position.]
It's all well and good for the city residents who can shop in the suburbs, but there are many who lack that option. City car ownership rates are low and it's not always easy to use transit for major shopping excursions. Which means, of course, that hundreds of thousands - more likely, millions - of city residents are stuck with dirty, cramped, expensive stores. To make matters worse, they're likely to be the people who can least afford to pay high prices. The more affluent types are more likely to own cars and can take advantage of the bargains at the suburban supermarkets.
I supported allowing large stores in the city, to get the tax revenues and the jobs for the poor. But I do all my shopping at local stores.
I have some neighbors who complain about the "characterless" big box stores, and want them kept out. They window shop on the local commercial street. But when it comes to spending a lot of money, they drive out to the suburbs and do it. Makes me sick.
"I'm sure that's true in Chicago as well."
Well, as I implied in my other message on this topic, Chicago political culture doesn't have the reflexive opposition to large stores in urban neighborhoods that New York seems to have.
There ARE some poorer Chicago neighborhoods that are underserved by supermarkets. (Underserved, not unserved: there are Dominick's and Jewel-Osco stores in some very "inner city" locations.) But that's a function of retailers not wanting to locate in particular low-income, high-crime markets, not retailer aversion to city neighborhoods in general or municipal opposition to large-scale retailers.
Nothing. The current mall mgt refused to let the MTA build the station right at the mall entrance, so it went where it is now. The MTA won't cut the service, since the line serves Hunt Valley's business areas too.
02/05/2000
After the mall is torn down, what replaces it? A farm?
Bill Newkirk
Nobody knows at this point. Hunt Valley Mall (AKA Death Valley Mall) was ill concieved from the beginning. White Marsh Mall was nearly finsihed and TowsonTowne Mall had just finished stage 2 of their expansion. Hunt Valley rushed to beat White Marsh, leaving many spaces unfinished. The bare spaces, with pipes, ducts and wires showing were there for all to see. Adding to the problems was the fact that the "upscale" mall in Owings Mills opened just 4 months after Hunt Valley.
That was the "coup de gras". They never recovered, despite getting the Light Rail at the doorstep. (But as I said, the mall mgt REFUSED to have the stop at the mall's mail entrance.)
Farm? Hunt Valley is rapidly becoming "outer suburb", plus very hi-tech industrial area.
02/05/2000
Just joking since all of those housing developments were once farms. My brother lives in one of those developments in Gaithersburg. Was a farm, not any more. What happens when all the farms disappear? Where will our food come from?, somebody's back yard!
Bill Newkirk
Locally, there's Carroll County, Frederick and Washington Counties, Northern Baltimore County, Harford & Cecil Counties and most of the Eastern Shore and Southern Maryland. Mostly rural, and farming.
North of Hunt Valley, Baltimore County is pretty rural. The area is near Hereford, so the area is known as "The Hereford Zone".
The Light Rail ends at Hunt Valley, and the ROW of the former Northern Central Railway north of there is a bike/hike trail (we all know what that means), that's as far as it will ever go.
How would you set up a badly needed east-west subway line in the Baltimore area? I'd generally run it along US route 40, linking Golden Ring (forget about White Marsh)
with Rolling Road, connecting to the 1983 subway at Lex Market. Stops would be Golden Ring Mall, Chesaco, Rosedale Ind. Pk., Armistead Gardens; then along Monument St. at Highland Ave., Johns Hopkins; then down Ensor or Hillen St. with a stop at Old Town Mall. In downtown, Saratoga & Holliday (City Hall), Lex Market (current station already has provisions for a transfer), and MLK Blvd. Next, Saratoga & Carey, then bring it under Franklin/Mulberry for a stop at Pulaski St. (the West Balto. MARC station). Edmonson at Poplar Grove and then Swann Ave., and finally Balto. Nat'l Pike at Ingleside Ave. and somewhere west of Rolling Road. The train yard for this line would be somewhere in Rosedale.
I'd also have a North Ave. line, built like Philly's Subway-Surface lines. Stops would be Belair Rd., Washington St., Broadway or Harford Rd., Greenmount Ave., Charles St., Mount Royal (connection to Light Rail),
Eutaw Pl., Penn-North (slightly west to also serve Fulton-Monroe), Bentalou St., Coppin State College, and finally Walbrook Jct. (around Bloomingdale Rd.). There would be single trolley-like cars, but they would run on third-rail power and connect to the 1983 subway tracks for storage at the Wabash yard.
>>>>Listen to
how suburbanites and their politicians talk: It's always "subsidizing" transit and "investing" in
roadbuilding, when the reality is the exact reverse. <<<
That's because in most of the USA outside of the inner cities, automobile ownership is thought to be the mark of a responsible citizen. If you have to ride a bus or take a train, you're second class somehow.
This attitude even extends to NYC proper. Drivers license is always the ID of choice when it's asked for. I meet resistance when I submit my SocSec card and a photo ID. They always seem to need that drivers license, until I tell them I don't drive.
I could drive, but I don't feel like paying the extra hundreds a month purchasing and caring for a car would entail, and I don't like having to deal with the speed demons on NYC expressways.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Or you can get a non-driver ID.
To add to this:
6. People think mass transit is very slow.
7. People aren't willing to walk to their nearest bus stop/station, or wait outside for a form of transit.
8. Because everyone else does
And here is what I think is the biggest reason, especially among people who are in high school or college or younger.
9. People have been so brainwashed by The American Automobile Society that they would not even think of using mass transit even if it was right under their nose.
This was the case with me before I started 7th Grade, and had to ride transit to school. Before then, I would never have imagined taking transit. But its not like I didn't know that other forms of transportation besides car and school buses existed. Yet even so, I liked to watch for trains on railroad bridges while in the school bus in 5th Grade, and enjoyed a SEPTA bus exhibit at the Please Touch Museum when I was little. I knew there were trains, but I couldn't figure out that I could actually use them.
When I was introduced to the bus in 7th Grade, I was not only impressed with being able to go somewhere without my parents taking me there, but being able to go somewhere without having to explain directions to my parents 5 times, or worrying about where to park. When I was introduced to the Market Frankford Line, I was blown away with its abliity to go between 30th and 15th Streets in 2 minutes. I always liked heavy rail because you didn't have to deal with the ever frequent traffic copmlaints. I even went as far as to think that most transit riders were nicer and less selfish people than car drivers, something still true in Philadelphia sometimes.
Perhaps the number one reason that people hate mass transit is because it is not available in a viable form.
For mass transit to be effective, you need a mass. Without high densities, you have a choice of 1) infrequent and limited and therefore lousy service or 2) empty vehicles and therefore enormous subsidies. When everyone took mass transit, enough service could be supported to make the quality high. Today, Manhattan (to it and within it) is about the only truly viable mass transit market in the U.S., by the standards of 50 years ago.
What everyone else is left with is a deteriorated skeleton of a system. Your fellow riders will either be us transit-buff eccentrics or those too poor or screwed up to drive. The same thing happened to the inter-city rail market, and the bus market, to an extent. It also happened to walking -- can't get anywhere in most of the U.S.
Here in NYC and the surrounding area, people do not hate transit, except for a few Archie Bunker types who don't like mixing with non-whites. There are a few other cities with historic transit systems in place that could recover to the extent that NYC has, but haven't yet. But think about it, if you want to live in a neighborhood where you can walk to your main street and a public park with things going on, and take transit to major concentration of job opportunities, what are your options.
Your post got me thinking about the title of this thread. My suspicion is that most people outside New York and a few other metro areas - suburban residents in particular - don't actually hate transit; instead, they don't even think about it in the first place. They don't use it and probably don't know anyone who does. Chances are they don't know the local bus routes, assuming that any exist, and may not even know what fares are charged. Transit, in short, occupies a place in the average suburbanite's life that's about as significant as the breeding habits of Alaskan caribou or the political situation in Uzbekistan.
[Transit, in short, occupies a place in the average suburbanite's life that's about as significant as the breeding habits of Alaskan caribou or the political situation in Uzbekistan. ]
And Uzbekistan actually has a subway system. In fact a new line just opened there! (In Tashkent, the capital).
Most suburbanites have cars, and can drive to rail stations. Some will drive long distances to stations, some don't even think of using the station when they live next door to it.
I am stil a teenager, I have a drivers liesance, I own a car, I love my car, I also love/prefer transit. For most kids driving is the greatest thing in the world, but after I had to commute to my summer job day after day for me driving began to loose some of its appeal. What turns me off to driving is fisrt of all my car is an unrelable death trap (1969 Ford Mustang convertable) so every drive I take is like playing russian roulette. Secondly rush hour traffic is simply awful. I didn't even have to go into Philly, but I still found my commute unpleasant. Day after day of GAS BRAKE HONK, GAS BRAKE HONK, HONK HONK PUNCH, GAS GAS GAS. People around Philly spend an average of 20 min a day in gridlock. That's not even counting slow moving traffic or conjestion. In the route 42/55/295/130/676/Walt Whitman bridge mess you're guarenteed a 45 min wait. As suburban population increases our nations roads are turning into parking lots. I've never heard of a growing problem with transit congestion. The third reason I prefer transit is because you don't have to be activly involved in transiting. When you're in a car you can't do much except drive (although people are constantly trying to prove me wrong). If you use transit you walk to your station, get on and then you are free to work, read, eat, shave, sleep, etc. Our nation is reaching a crisis and transit is the solution. However, many people still pray to their cars and will continue to oppose transit despite the fact that transit works. Take a look at PATCO. PATCO was built with the car in mind. Each station has ample park and ride. One station has its own freeway interchange. Everyday I walk by my station the parking lots are FULL. From what I have heard PATCO has consistantly made money and the PA uses it as a cash cow to fund other projects. The commuters get to have their cake and eat it too. They get to use their cars for the fun (local) part of the drive and then they use PATCO to bypass the bridges and to avoid parking in the city. When I talk to students from the NYC metro area about how they get into the city they always say, NJT or LIRR or Metro North. They love using trainst and they are first to sing the praises of transit (they also love how they let you drink on the LIRR). Once transit is there and once people have used it and once they see the alternatives I think there will be a transit renaissance in this country. I just hope it happens soon.
PS: There is a book somewhere out there about a massive traffic jam that hits the east coast and cars are stuck in perminant gridlock. The book is about how the trapped people survive by forming little cities and scavenging parties. Paints a very interesting scenario.
For your last paragraph: Why can't these people WALK home?
PATCO is an interesting transit line because some of its most used stations are not in the most high density areas. Yet it runs at headways half of those on Philadelphia's regular subways. Many commuters do not live in walking distance of their local PATCO station, and could not walk. But even so its cost recovery ratio has been pretty good. Disproves people who say ultra high density is needed for good transit.
Density of destination is the most important part. Everybody has to be in the same central area, else you'd end up having to build many lines, transfer many times or either have high headways or ridiculously high subsidies.
I think Mr. Amsterdam has it right. PATCO serves Downtown Philly, one of the few real Downtowns in the U.S. So it has enough density to walk to the destination on one end. On the other end, it has parking, a substitute for 20+ housing units per acre and walking.
That is true. The density on the downtown end is high, but on the suburban end is low.
Much as I love rail transit and in fact am not legal to drive(eyesight), perhaps the following vignettes will help illustrate some attitudes. "The $1.13 hustle--panhandler working the BART train begging for some ludicrous odd sum of money supposedly to complete his fare." "The boom box moron" not just leaking out of the earphones but playing the speakers(when this happens on buses it is usually ignored by the driver!). "Dysfunctional family dramas" need I describe these? All of this balances out against the relatively controlled noise level in the individual car tuned to whatever or cruising the latest CD. In turn what you also looking at is the increasing sprawl of the job market as the better paying work moves away from the urban cores to locations where there is no transit or at best none to where many of the workers live. And indeed David Cole is spot on about 'subsidies'--like state tax free bonds to build new office parks etc.
I was at McDonald's with my philosophy major friend the other day, and we came up with a reason:
Because on the train/subway, you're effectively equal to everyone else on that train. You've got more or less the same seat, ride, noise level, etc.
In a car, you're all to yourself in your whatevermobile. Which leads right into the "Look at me in my BMW, I'm so rich I have one for every day of the week. You suck because you have a Honda, but I've got a BMW, so I must be better than you" attitude.
People like to talk about equality and that stuff, but when you get down to it, a lot of people don't practice what they preach.
I'm somewhat well known on campus for walking to the local supermarkets, or to the local McDonalds*. Now, I live near two. The close one, is litteraly accross the tracks - in a somewhat rundown, mostly minority section of Hartford. An easy 10 minute walk. The far one, is in the more upscale section, but about a 45 minute walk. I go to the close one, unless I need to go shopping or to the Post Office (in which I have to walk to the other one). Most people, upon finding this out, look at me like I'm some sort of wacko. "You go where???" They then start on the typical "But that's where those people go" I tell them I don't care, it's closer, it's got the same food, prices, service, etc. They still don't get it.
I don't get why I should avoid "those" people.
Oh yes, and not having a car around here, people DO treat you like you're second class. I've had "get a car!!!" yelled at me a few times. And not by college students.
*The concept of walking, in itself, is a radical one here. I know students who actually live on campus and drive to class. On campus. I once had to listen to some freshman whine about how he had to go off campus, and how he "needed" a car. Why? Not because he didn't have a car, but because his was parked at the other end of campus!!! I suggested he walk, at which point, he moaned about how cold it is outside. And it's a long walk too (all 1000 feet of it). It's times like this, I wish opec would just stop produceing oil for a year or two.
I also prefer alternate means local transportation. If I need something at the store or want to get lunch at the Chinese place I'll walk to get it or I'll take my bike. Its only about 45 min round trip walking or 20 biking, plus I'm getting some exercise that will help ofset what I'm buying at the store. I also enjoy distance running and jogging and I can jog anywhere I really need to go in about 20 min. Back in September I needed to go home via Amtrak. The nearest Amtrak station's 7.8 miles away in Meriden and I needed to get there before 2:30 to pick up my ticked and the bus would get there at 2:45 so I got out my shoes, decided to walk it and I made it in a little over 2 hours. In fact when I got back the next day I decided to walk back. Saved a total of $40 in cab fare. I was sore for a week after that one and I have since learned of the $6 bus to New Haven so I will never so it again, but walking is an effective means of transportation. Once as part of a railfan trip I was dropped off where I wanted to start and I walked 20 miles home. Only took me 6 hours.
My walking record is when I went from Chambers Street to 159th Street mostly nonstop (I stopped for lunch at Tom's on 112th and B'way). It was raining! I finally gave up on going up to Marble Hill and settled on 168th, but I was tired, wet and sore and decided that it would be best to turn around and pick up the train at 157th.
One day, I hope to go from the Battery to Marble Hill.
Not a bad goal. During my first visit to NYC, I took the C to Brooklyn Bridge / High Street, walked across the bridge and around lower Manhattan and then all the way up to East 79th and then across the park to my friend's place at 87th and Amsterdam. I didn't exactly take the most direct route, as I did a lot of exploring of various side streets and alleys and made my way to the tops of a couple skyscrapers along the way, so I figured I covered about 10-15 miles or so that afternoon. I also did a lot of walking during my most recent visit, but I broke it up into a number of segments instead of trying to cover all of Manhattan in one day.
My goals for future visits:
1) Walk across the rest of the East River bridges in addition to the Brooklyn Bridge. (No trip to NYC is complete for me without at least one walk across the Brooklyn Bridge. I grew up in awe of the Brooklyn Bridge's grandaddy, the Roebling Suspension Bridge in my hometown of Cincinnati.)
2) Spend at least a half-day walking in each of the five boroughs.
3) Ride each line on the entire subway system from end to end.
4) Get myself a decent camera and bring it along, so I can capture some of the street scenes I wish I could have captured previously.
5) Battery to Marble Hill would be a rather worthy goal to add to my list as well, now that you mention it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
A bunch of City Planners once tried to walk all the way around Manhattan Island. They made it up the east side then down as far as 59th. Most of they were so sore they had to take a couple of days off.
They probably wore their work shoes, which when you work in an office, aren't good for long distance walking. The good thing about being a High School student is that there's no dress code. I always wear some sort of sneaker, my feet are never sore enough not to recover after some relaxing. When I did the Chambers-159 walk, my feet were fine after I sat down in the subway and I didn't even take them off.
My goal is to ride each and every line of the subway. I still have yet to ride the J, M, Z, and the Franklin Ave & 42nd street shuttles. BTW, when I saw the pics of the 21st queensbridge station and the adjacent stations, I saw the "T" train, what was that?? I never knew such a train ran through there.
There was a T train that ran where the B now runs in Brooklyn. The picture in question was one to commemorate the passing of the R-30 in 1993. 26 years after the T stopped running. Not only that, but the T stopped running 22 years before that station opened!
The T was the pre-Chrystie St. Broadway-West End Express. It was essentially the old #3 West End route which was assigned the letter T when the IND letter code was expanded to include the BMT. Today's B train is a combination of the T and the IND rush hour BB line, both of which passed into history in November of 1967.
Unfortunetly most people who think this way are wrong. To site an example when the South Jersey PATCO line the only problem fashionable suburb of Haddonfield had with PATCO was that a tressle would mar the historic city centre and so the line was laid in a deep trench and mostly everyone was happy. Let us also look at another fashionable suburb called Moorestown. This town is also located on a little used railroad right of way and there have been many plans for light rail, but time and time again the people of Moorestown (and other communities along the line) have block construction for god knows what reasons. Since 1980 alone housing values in Haddonfield have more than doubled and on average are more than that of Moorestown even though the houses in Moorestown are bigger and nicer. So it is obvious that transit increases property values. Geez, just look at the "Main Line". Why do people want to live there? Ummm, easy access to the city perhaps? As for the problem with minorities/the poor "messing up" the place Haddonfield has dealt with the problem by stationing ever-vigilant members of its police force near the station where they arrest any minority/poor person for "panhandling". I am not kidding. So with transit coupled to an agressive police force any fashionable suburb can have its cake and eat it too.
I think when you get right down to it, the reasons you state, while providing juicy sound-bites for the rallying cry of the anti-transit set, are by-products of a fundamental cultural fact about Americans. We place the highest value on FREEDOM. You could even say that mass transit in the United States never really had a chance once we fought at Lexington and Concord. In fact, if you think about any political issue of our times, disagreements arise not usually over issues themselves, but rather an inate resentment of being TOLD what to do, when to do it, and in what manner. It doesn't matter who's doing the dictating, be it Republicans or Democrats, the government, a special interest, or even simply those responsible for getting you from here to there.
Anyone familiar with my past posts on this site knows I appreciate, use daily, and in a way, even love all facets of rail transit, but think about it: Wouldn't you rather have your own house, your own yard for you kids to play in, and your own means of getting around, and no schedules? But there's the thing: owning a car does not necessarily mean you CAN get around that easily. Witness the account of your personal commute. We New Yorkers have always been forced to acknowledge the fact that here, the subway provides more "freedom" than cars. Manhattan geography made for a much more rapid "sprawl," which occurred at a time when labor was cheap and fast (and also incredibly unsafe).
For me, it's all about options. As I someday do hope to own a car, I'd gladly have my transportation tax dollar split equally between the steel rail and the blacktop (okay, maybe 70% rail, 30% road!). But my perfect world would have a train running 50 yards from my driveway!
"mass transit" is ok. stop bad-mouthing it!
I was looking at the nycsubway.org page about the 8th Ave/Fulton IND, and I came across something that I found very confusing in the photo which accompanies the description of the 88th St./Boyd Ave station. (http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r40/r40-4435.jpg).
This 1970 photo depicts a train running on the elevated tracks near the 88th St. station. It seems to me that this train is a Manhattan-bound ("northbound") train, going westward above Liberty Ave.
The thing that is confusing me is a streetsign which can be seen near the lower-right-hand corner of the photo. This streetsign clearly reads "69" (I cannot make out the little letters which follow the number).
This sign is quite odd, since the street numbers at that point are (obviously) in the 80s, not the 60s. There is in fact no 69th St. along Liberty Ave. in Queens; the last numbered Queens street that crosses Liberty Ave. before the Brooklyn border is 75th St. So, this would seem to rule out its being a "street" marker.
However, the pictured sign cannot be an "avenue" marker either, since the avenue numbers at that station are nowhere near 69. (At 88th St., Liberty Ave. is flanked by 103rd Ave. to the north, and 107th Ave. to the south.)
Can someone clear up this mystery by explaining what that sign says, and what it is doing on Liberty Ave. near 88th St.?
Ferdinand Cesarano
I agree, enlarging/zooming in the street sign area sure does bring up a "69".
Maybe the photo was captioned in error and the photo was in another location.
I was gonna guess maybe at 69th Street on the "B" (West End) -- but then I got to thinking, in tha era, the street signs in Brooklyn were white characters on black background -- weren't they?
It's probably taken at 71st St Station on the B-West End facing north. That looks like probably the express station at 62nd/New Utrect in the distance. If anyone can confirm I'll change the caption.
No - I don't think so. If memory serves me correctly, the alignment of the West End El between 71st & 62nd Sts, heading towards Manhattan, is straight as an arrow and on a downgrade. The 62nd St station widens the El for its 3 tracks & 2 platforms. There is also an interlocking along that downgrade. I don't "see" that in the picture. The alignment is more consistent with the West End EL between 62nd ST & 55th St. The picture seems to indicate that the station in the distance is a local station on a slight turn to the left. That does match the West End's alignment there, but it can't be because the picture was clearly taken from a local platform, and 62nd St is an express station.
Did the Jamaica El have 3 tracks in that area (between Cypress Hills & Eldert's Lane) at that time? Then again, I don't recall slant 40s running on it in those years.
Maybe the sign says 89, not 69?
--Mark
This picture is captioned correctly. It is the Liberty Ave. el as viewed from the Lefferts/Far Rock platform, looking east. The dead giveaway is the lack of an outside catwalk along the tracks. One wasn't installed on this line until the tracks were rehabbed about 12-15 years ago. I can't see where the "69" is. No street sign is visible to me.
To see the streetsign, look at the photo's lower-right-hand corner.
There is a small pole which holds a stop sign (seen from the back) and a one-way sign. Right next to this pole is a lamppost. The "69" sign is on the lamppost, placed a tiny bit higher than the one-way sign is on its pole. The lampost in question is partly in sunlight, partly in shadow. The "69" sign can be seen on the shadowy part.
As to the possibility that this could be a Brooklyn sign: seems doubtful, since, as Steve Hoskins already mentioned, the Brooklyn signs had white lettering on a black background at that time.
The sign looks like a Queens "whitey", with blue lettering on a white background. Any chance it is Beach 69th St. in Rockaway? Of course, there is no "B" on the sign, so I guess this is unlikely also.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I cannot see the numbers on this sign. However, even if it does say 69, it's irrelevant. It's clearly the Liberty Ave. el, as seen from the eastbound 88th st station, prior to the installation of full windscreens at the end of each platform. That sign must be for 89th St, not 69th St. Perhaps the sign was defaced in some manner to make an 8 appear as a 6.
The tracks have no outside catwalk. This was an unusual characteristic of this particular line at the time the pic was taken.
BTW, how can everybody say they see a 69 and not
an 89? I can't even make out what color the` sign is.
On my screen I can clearly see it a White and Blue sign as for the 69 vs 89 it looks alot like 69 to me...
White & blue indicates a Queens street. No B division elevated crosses a "69th" street anywhere in Queens. It's either a defaced sign or an incorrect sign. The point is moot. From other indicators, the picture is indeed the Liberty Ave el (A) line, looking east from the 88th/Boyd Ave station.
There is a three track portion on Crescent St that ends before Jamaica Ave. The nearest three track portion on Jamaica Ave would be the lay-up tracks at 111 th St.
IIRC, for 69th St to be off Jamaica Ave, it would have to be Hemlock St or Autumn Ave in Cypress Hills. and those two streets have had their names almost since time began.
I looked at the sign as closly as I could it clearly says 69 so it must be the J/Z line in Queens
The sign is wrong. The line IS the Liberty Ave. el at the location described before. I know this area well, as I live near this station.
It cant be the J/Z. Why? The J line never crosses over a 69th St. There is no middle track anywhere along the line with the exception of the 111th St. spur. The buildings along Jamaica Ave. are much closer to the tracks than it appears in this picture.
This picture's location is EXACTLY where the caption states it is. Forget the sign. It's wrong. It MUST be an 89 defaced, or just plain incorrect. We all know how the city screws up it's street signs.
Numbered streets in Queens begin with 75 in the part of Queens south of Forest Park. I looked at the picture. While I DO think that the number looks a bit like "69" it also looks more like "89". That's Rockaway Boulevard station in the distance, with the distinctive curve at the west end of the platform.
Wayne
That is a QUEENS street sign. It is blue letters on a white background, and one like that would never be found in Brooklyn. Even though it looks like "69" is is more than likely "89", which is just east of the 88th St-Boyd Avenue station.
Wayne
There's just one flaw in your theory: the entire alignment of 69th Street in Brooklyn is called Bay Ridge Avenue. It must have been changed sometime in the thirties or forties, because a lot of old-time Bay Ridgers still call it 69th Street. The old pre-Bridge ferry to Staten Island was called the 69th Street Ferry.
Likewise, what should be 75th Street is called Bay Ridge Parkway; what should be 22nd Avenue is Bay Parkway; what should be 4th Avenue is Park Avenue. I vaguely recall seeing some long-gone directional signs at Grand Central referring to the Lex line as the 4th Avenue line.
As has been discussed, several previously lettered Avenues in Brooklyn are now fully-named Roads starting with the same letter in the alignment (Clarendon, Farragut, Glenwood, Quentin).
The oddest conversion I've ever seen is in Flushing, Queens where there is a series of consecutively alphabetized numbered avenues (due to the profusion of nurseries in the area in the 1800s). It's pretty consistent- Ash, Beech, Cherry- but then you hit 45th AVENUE. Old maps indicate Franconia Avenue in its stead. Somewhere along the line, Franconia- and only Franconia was changed to reflect the more modern numbering system. Well, at least 45th starts with an F.
Thanks for bringing that up -- I never bothered to look at a NYC AAA map right here on my desk.
And after living in the Flatbush area in my youth (East 26th & Clarendon), I NEVER put two and two together on the "Road" names being in any sort of order.
Goes to show, we learn something new every day!
Thanks for the enlightenment!!
the 7 line has the same along Queens Blvd the stations have names but the streets are numbered....
The stations are numbered. The old signs (now mostly removed) only indicated the old names.
The A line stations in Queens continue to sport the street names as well as numbers, yet the names haven't been used since 1917.
The funny thing is, the pier at the end of Bay Ridge Avenue is known officially as the "69th Street Pier".
Also, anyone who's live in Bay Ridge for any period of time would NEVER refer to the streets as "Bay Ridge Avenue" or "Bay Ridge Parkway". It's like calling 6th Avenue "Avenue of the Americas".
Maps from the 1890s show them as 69th Street and 75th Street.
Ovington Avenue, which also runs through the area, is apparently an older road, since it is on a slightly different angle than the grid at some points.
I'm drawing a blank why 69th and 75th were renamed; I doubt they wanted to get rid if the number 69, since it appears elsewhere in NYC without any effort to hide it.
I think they made a confusing situation, since Bay Ridge newbies have to differentiate betwen Bay Ridge Pkwy, Bay Ridge Ave., Bay Ridge Place, Ridge Blvd. (which replaces 2nd Avenue), Ridge Court, and Bay Parkway.
Bay Ridge, like Canarsie, has some aboriginal streets that have survived the centuries like Ovington, Stewart Avenue and Forest Place.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Great job breaking down the street name/numbers. Here are some more...
Rockaway Parkway = E.97 Street
Remsen Avenue = E.90 Street
Utica Avenue = E.50 Street
Nostrand Avenue = E.30 Street
Bedford Avenue = E.25 Street
Ocean Avenue = E.20 Street
Coney Island Avenue = E.10 Street
Ocean Parkway = E.6 Street
Where is Avenue "E"? I guess it is now Foster Avenue
Over in Queens, we have 119 Street posing as Lefferts Blvd., and 163 Street is Guy Brewer Blvd. south of Jamaica Avenue. And YES 45 Avenue is the "F" street in that alphabetical series in Flushing. There are more alphabetical series in Jackson Heights, Forest Hills Gardens, and St. Albans. Interestingly, 117th Avenue in Queens doesn't even exist. It is Foch Blvd and then, further east, Linden Blvd. And what's with the zig-zagging pattern of Francis Lewis Blvd? NOW BACK TO TRAINS....
"Coney Island Avenue = E.10 Street"
Well, that depends on where you are - in some places it's E. 11th St.,and, aafter Avenue C, it's E. 9th St.
"Where is Avenue "E"? I guess it is now Foster Avenue"
Not quite - if you look at old Brooklyn maps of the area between Coney Island Ave. and McDonald Ave. you'll see that Albamarlle (sp?) Rd. was Ave. A; Beverley was Ave. B; Ave. C still exists; then, in a bit of a twist, Cortelyou Rd. (not Ditmas Ave.) was Ave. D; and Ditmas Ave was Ave. E. From there on, Ave. F still exists, Glenwood and Quentin Rds. replace Aves. G and Q, and the rest of the letters of the alphabet still exist.
subfan
oney Island Ave is East 11th, Also remember NY Ave, Albany, Kingston, Schenectody(spelling) etc are also replacing East # Sts and mcDonald Ave is East 1st
Hating to be a party-pooper, but my aunt lived for many years on E. 1st St, and it was most definitely not McDonald Ave.
McDonald Avenue shifts westward at Kings Highway. East 1st Street replaces it at Avenue S.
And furthermore:
E.47th St = Schenectady Avenue
E.44th St = Troy Avenue
E.41st St = Albany Avenue
E.36th St = Brooklyn Avenue
E.33rd St = New York Avenue
E.27th St = Rogers Avenue
Wayne (2511 Newkirk Avenue :: DORA COURT :: )
Also
East 30th Street: Marine Parkway
East 60th Street: Ralph Avenue
East 62th Street: Mill Avenue
East 75th Street: Royce Street
East 76th Street: Bergen Avenue
West 14th Street: Stillwell Avenue
0th Street: Dahill Road
0th Street: West Street
22nd Ave-Bay Pkwy etc etc etc
We were only talking about the East and West N system.
See the second paragraph in the last message I posted.
I like that - 0th Street. I wonder what if any ordinal "0" uses. Did you know that in DC there are ½ Streets (the signs read "Half Street") and it is between South Capitol and 1st Street on either side. There was also a 12½ Street NW off Penna Avenue but I don't know if it's still there. It is right near Fed'l Triangle sta.
Wayne
How many streets in Brooklyn Have the name 9th St, East, West, Beach Etc. Also there are 2 West 9th Streets, and the N crosses 1 and runs 1 block from the other.
West 9th in Red Hook is so named because it is immediately west of where 9th Street begins on Smith Street; the other West 9th falls into line with its brother West X Streets in Gravesend. Very confusing for non Brooklynites and cabbies.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right, 2 west 9ths, but how many other with the number "9" you could include 9th Ave also
9th Street
West 9th Street
9th Avenue
East 9th Street
Paerdegat 9th Street
Flatlands 9th Street
Brighton 9th Street
South 9th Street
North 9th Street
and that's just in Brooklyn ALONE!
According to 1995 Hagstrom Atlas thre is no Brighton 9th, There are 4 Brighton 8th and 5 Brighton 10 but no Brighton 9. As to East Numbered Sts. They range from East 1st to 108th But there is no East 20th(Ocean) 30th(Nostrand)50th(Utica)or 90th(no replacement) East 23 was also know as Delamere Rd and E 24th as Mansfield Rd.
There also is no East 44th or East 47th. Also no 62nd, 75th and 97th. And 90th is replaced, by Remsen Avenue. All of them are replaced. 44 is Troy, 47 is Schenectady, 62 is Mill, 75 is Royce Street and 97 is Rockaway Parkway.
Here's a DETAILED list of streets partially or wholly replaced by a named street.StreetAvenue ReplacingRuns BetweenActual Street RunsW14StillwellBay Pkwy to Riegelmann Bdwk0Dahill RoadCaton Av to Kings Hwy0West StreetAve T to Shore Pkwy1McDonald10 Av to Ave XAve S to Shore Pkwy6Ocean ParkwayPark Cir to Surf AvAve Y to Shore Pkwy8Sherman St10 Av to Terrace Pl & Vanderbilt St and Ocean PkwyOcean Pkwy to Gravesend Neck Rd9Coney IslandPark Cir to Riegelmann BdwkBeverley Rd to Ave V10Caton Av to Church Av & Foster Av to Ave R11Ave X to Neptune Av11Stratford RoadCaton Av to Ditmas Av12Westminster RdCaton Av to Ave HAve H to Neptune Av13Argyle RdAve H to death bef Neptune Av14Rugby RdAve H to Neptune Av15Marlboro RdCaton Av to Foster AvAve H to Emmons Av20OceanEmpire Blvd to Esplanade24BedfordManhattan Av to Emmons AvFoster Av to Voorhies Av25Cortelyou Rd to Foster Av27RogersBergen? St to Farragut RdGlenwood Rd to Emmons Av30NostrandFlushing Av to Emmons Av33New YorkFulton St to Ave NAve N to Ave U36BrooklynFulton St to Flatbush AvFlatbush Av to Ave U41AlbanyDecatur St to Ave KKings Hwy to Flatlands Av44TroyFulton St to Flatbush Av47SchenectadyFulton St to Flatbush Av50UticaChauncey? St to Ave S60RalphBway to E 98 St & Remsen Av to Ave TAve T to Ave U62MillRalph Av to National Dr75Royce StRoyce Pl to Ave N & Ave T to Bergen Ave76BergenAve K to Ave X & Royce St to Ave YRalph Av to Glenwood Rd & Flatlands Av to Paerdegat 1 St90RemsenUtica Av to Seaview Av97Rockaway PkwyE NY Av to Canarsie Vets Cir
I stan corrected, where did you get that list?and Kings Highway Crosses Most of them, without a break
KH DOES NOT cross West Street, Stratford, Westminster, Argyle, Rugby and Marlboro Roads, Albany, Ralph and Mill Avenues, Royce Street and Bergen Avenue.
I said most of them, not all of them
I don't care. I was being more specific.
Where exactly is Flatlands 9 Street?????
3TM
I just found it, It runs between E 106 and 108, between Flatlands Ave, and the Belt Pkwy, actually between M and N, and it is in Carnarsie, not Flatlands Go Figure
No, it's Between Avenue N and Flatlands 10 (which comes right before Seaview). And it's between 105 and 108. They're named because they're numbered sequentially from Flatlands.
I just gave the General Area
maybe somebody remembers the 69th street ferry between staten island and brooklyn. For reference check Railroad ferries of the Hudson, the sixty ninth street ferry is mentioned on pages 27, 60 and 168.
It also used to be called the Electric Ferries, why I don t know, but great trip for a nickle back then.
[West 9th in Red Hook is so named because it is immediately west of where 9th Street begins on Smith Street; the other West 9th falls into line with its brother West X Streets in Gravesend. Very confusing for non Brooklynites and cabbies.]
If you want to give delivery people or taxi drivers a taste of REAL Brooklyn confusion, direct them to the intersection of Kings Highway and Quentin Road :-)
Which one, at E 12 or W 10th?
In Queens there is a horseshoe shaped street (246 Crescent) that crosses 244th street twice. Also in Levittown there are a number of streets that are so windy they cross themselves. For example there is an intersection of Duckpond Rd and Duckpond Rd or the intersection of Sprucewood Lane & Sprucewood Lane.
Just like in San Francisco, where Third Street hooks around south of China Basin and intersects almost every other numbered street in the city.
Let us not forget in the West Village where West 4th Street crosses West 10th, 11th and 12th Streets.
In Queens there is a horseshoe shaped street (246 Crescent) that crosses 244th street twice. Also in Levittown there are a number of streets that are so windy they cross themselves. For example there is an intersection of Duckpond Rd and Duckpond Rd or the intersection of Sprucewood Lane & Sprucewood Lane. Not easy if you're on the phone with a repairman or a delivery service and they ask your cross streets.
You are repeating yourself Sarge, hell of a night huh.
Actually hell of a day!! I took 'lil Arthur to the Big A today. I guess he's going to be an usher when he grows up. He was determined to put every seat up then down in the whole grandstand and to chase every seagull he saw there. I got some workout chasing him. I was going to park at Liberty and Woodhaven and take the train 1 stop for Arthur but I left too late.
>>>I like that - 0th Street. I wonder what if any ordinal "0" uses. Did you know that in DC there are *
Streets (the signs read "Half Street") and it is between South Capitol and 1st Street on either side. There
was also a 12* Street NW off Penna Avenue but I don't know if it's still there. It is right near Fed'l
Triangle sta. <<
Some cities, like Baltimore, do have X-1/2 Streets. Brooklyn takes the cake, though, with about a dozen streets each carrying the numbers 1, 2, and 3.
www.forgotten-ny.com
In Baltimore we have one half street (26 1/2th Street) midway between 26th and 27th, intersecting Charles. That's the only one we have.
We do have a plethera of half addresses, where a large unbuilt lot had two houses built on it after the addresses were numbered.
We have missing house numbers. Mine is 2920, my next-door neighbor is 2916. There's no 2918.
I'm at the east end of the street, a quick walk to the car stop on the corner - only to June 16, 1956, when the 19 car went (ugh) bus.
In Brooklyn, we have A lots. The lots were laid out for 20 X 100 foot lots with rowhouses, but when the economy got hot lot widths narrowed. My rowhouse is 17 feet wide, others are 16 or even 15 feet wide. So you end up with extra addresses, hence I'm at 223 and my next door neighbor is at 223A.
I do believe there is a 19th 1/2 Street, off Greenmount Ave above North Ave.
Did you know that in parts of the east side, there is no 300 North block? Along Orleans St. in the vicinity of Johns Hopkins, the numbers on north-south streets jump from 200 (Fayette to Orleans) to 400 (Orleans to Jefferson).
Finally, study the names of north-south streets in Highlandtown and eastward, especially along Eastern Ave. Starting with Conkling, the street names are in alphabetic order (Dean, Eaton, can't remember the "F", Grundy, Haven, etc.). These were all numbered streets many years ago...the numbered streets in the 60s along Eastern Ave. and Pulaski Hwy just outside the city line were part of that pattern.
>>>These were all numbered streets many years ago...the numbered streets in
the 60s along Eastern Ave. and Pulaski Hwy just outside the city line were part of that pattern. <<<
Thanks. I had wondred why there are isolated streets in the 60s at the city line.
Chicago has its own version of that..its numbered streets begin at 9. In Philly, numbered avenues begin in the 50s.
I've always noticed patterns in naming of streets. Here in NY, the Bronx has a flock of NYC mayors; Brooklyn has a gaggle of signers of the Declaration; Queens has a bouquet of plants in alphabetical order, left over from when Flushing was full of greenhouses and plant nurseries; Staten Island has an army of astronauts and a murder of classical composers.
Someday...a page on...
www.forgotten-ny.com
If you look at a map of Anne Arundel County, MD (south of Baltimore) you'll find an isolated set of numbered streets in the 200s! They are north of Mountain Road (MD route 177), which is located east-southeast of Glen Burnie. Lord knows what pattern those streets came from.
(Staten Island Street names...)
And a bunch of street names that are, how shall we say it - eclectic - i.e.
Lortel Avenue
Yeomalt (?!?) Avenue
Croak (!) Avenue
Coale Avenue
Lamped Loop (?)
Cebra Avenue
Bang Terrace
Notus Avenue (notthem either)
Weed Avenue (far out, man!)
Targee Street
just to name a few.
I STILL haven't figured out what a Yeomalt is - I've been scratching my head over that one since 1964.
Wayne
Lortel Avenue
Yeomalt (?!?) Avenue
Croak (!) Avenue
Coale Avenue
Lamped Loop (?)
Cebra Avenue
Bang Terrace
Notus Avenue (notthem either)
Weed Avenue (far out, man!)
Targee Street
Of course, all the streets listed above were probably names of people on whose land the streets were built, or friends of the contractor, or somebody's mother-in-law.
Staten Island is facinating for its occasional stretches of rurality (that are quickly disappearing in all the cookie cutter development) and for the fact that it has never succumbed to a borough-wide numbering plan, as Queens did in the 20s.
SI also has a group of European rivers and a group of streets inspired by Alaska, for some reason.
I'm still perplexed by Fingerboard Road. Were there a lot of violin players there in the 19th century? A fingerboard is the long part of the violin/viola where the strings are mounted.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Creedmoor State Hospital used to be an NRA shooting range, whence Winchester and Springfield Blvds., plus some names like Musket and Pistol Sts. that I don't think have survived. Westerleigh on Staten Island (northeast of Willowbrook) was founded as a temperance colony, "Prohibition Park," in the 1880s, and the streets are either named for leaders of the movement, or then-dry states like Maine. (Both tidbits lifted from Willensky & White, AIA Guide to New York City, 3 ed.: possibly the best book in the whole world.)
The book....
Willensky & White, AIA Guide to New York City, 3 ed.: possibly the
best book in the whole world.
is out of print (it's from 1988) but the better libraries probably have it, or one of its two older editions.
Even though Elliott Willensky passed away a few years ago, Norval White has been busily preparing a new edition himself, which should come out this year; if not, certainly next year...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Musket Street and Range Street (the one with the grass divider) are still there. It's Pistol Street that succumbed to the plain-vanilla name of 235th Court back in the early 1960s. There are also streets with names like "Sabre" and "Ransom" in the same vicinity.
Wayne
Now let's go to Queens: Some stations still carry dual names such as 71/Continental, 46/Bliss, etc. does anyone have a list of all the old names or where(whioch street/Avenue) did the old name system end
>>>We have missing house numbers. Mine is 2920, my next-door neighbor is 2916. There's no 2918. <<<
In NYC we skip a LOT of house numbers. Finding out why will be very difficult...if and when I do, it'll be on...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Being a Chicagoan, I've always been rather confounded by NYC's street numbering system (is there even a system?), even in upper Manhattan.
What would make the most sense would be if the street numbers on the avenues corresponded with the numbered cross streets. Example: A location at "8650 Amsterdam" would be located on Amsterdam halfway between 86th and 87th. The avenues themselves would also be numbered, i.e., 2nd Avenue would be 200, 8th Avenue would be 800, etc. A location at "850 West 72nd" would be on 72nd halfway between CPW and Columbus.
Just my humble opinion. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Of course with a cross street system like that, you would exclude alphabet city, and kill the east and west side system.
The crosstown grid works, for west streets, add to five, for east, subtract.
I agree with you North-South. This is already used on Riverside Drive in the 150s and northward.
All avenue addresses start from one. Queens has a grid, the streets are just crooked, but it's still better than anywhere else.
And here's a Brooklyn Key:
X Ave, X Street grid: gridded except in situations where streets or avenues start before one, in that case, the street/avenue catch up.
Letter Avenues: When the start on the west side, they are sequential from one, and "catch up" to a grid system on the east side.
East/West X Streets: Either sequential, based on number of letter or numbered to match adjacent street.
My house number is 2742. The 2000 block is between Avenues T and U. From there, the road continues on to add 100 for each next block as it curves in an area of being off the grid. Even though the arcs of the streets cause my street to be shorter than the next one, the block is all 2700.
My old house number was 1235, between Avenues J and K, although this is because the streets start at a staggered rate, far north of what Avenue A would be. Then there was also 1420 and 1642, which were between N & O and P & Quentin respectively, which makes sense.
Oddly, the numbered avenues in Brooklyn (3rd, 4th and 5th)change their numbering scheme at 39th Street. After 5th, avenues are interrupted by Green-Wood Cemetery so the change is not as jarring.)
Between Atlantic Avenue and 39th, the numbers begin at one and go to about 900, but 3900 takes over at 39th Street.
This difference represents the old Brooklyn-New Utrecht city line. After New Utrecht was annexed, the house numbers were not changed.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Most of the north-south streets in the Bronx have address numbers originating from the Harlem River and East River and ascending upwards towards the city line. After a while you get used to 1900 marking Tremont Avenue, 2400 marking Fordham Road, etc.
Interestingly, Riverdale uses a system on its north-south streets somewhat similar to that in Queens and southwest Brooklyn whereby the address is keyed to the intersecting numbered street. Thus, 5601 Netherland Avenue can be found between 256th and 257th Streets.
Then again, Riverdale is denying its being situated in the Bronx. I'm seeing more and more addresses that end in Riverdale, New York 10463/10471. While this is technically not incorrect, it is confusing. We got an invitation to a party at such an address and my wife thought it was in a new part of Queens she never heard of!
[Then again, Riverdale is denying its being situated in the Bronx. I'm seeing more and more addresses that end in Riverdale, New York 10463/10471. While this is technically not incorrect, it is confusing.
We got an invitation to a party at such an address and my wife thought it was in a new part of Queens she never heard of!]
Real estate ads in the Times have separate categories for Riverdale and the Bronx.
The 10471 zip code is for the Riverdale Post office while 10463 is the Kingsbridge one.
>>>Real estate ads in the Times have separate categories for Riverdale and the Bronx. <<<
That reflects a discriminatory and possibly racist attitude by the paper of record...or perhaps what they think of attitudes of possible home buyers.
Because of the hillier topography of the Bronx, it cannot "keep up" with the Manhattan numbering. This is especially noticeable once you reach High Bridge. By the time you get to about Fordham, the Bronx is fully fifteen streets behind.
So, the Bronx splits into two numbering systems at this point. Separated by Sedgwick Avenue, streets on the eastern side of Sedgwick continue their numbering in the 190s, whilke west of Sedgwick, the numbers skip thirty to join up with the Manhattan numbering at Marble Hill and Riverdale. The break is at Kingsbridge Road; for example, along Bailey and Heath Avenues, it's 193rd, Kingsbridge, and then 229th.
www.forgotten-ny.com
being a resident of riverdale, i dont like the elitist attitude taken on by some of my neighbors. i personally am very proud to be a resident of the bronx. i spend most of my time in the morris park area. however, if anyone asks me where i am from, and i say the bronx, and then find that im from riverdale, they say "oh, thats not the bronx!" riverdale is however changing. just within 2 blocks of my house there have been 6 or so new houses built or being built within the past year or so. with population density going up, the neighborhood will certainly change. south riverdales first chain store is also in the making on johnson ave and w235th st. i understand it is going to be a blockbuster video store.
I remember that bus restructuring very well. My mother works up in Riverdale and I used to enjoy taking the M100 from home to her job on Henry Hudson Pkwy. Also, I remember the numerous fine shops along Johnson Ave and 235th ST? (or was it 239) I went to JFK HS on the Riverdale-Marble Hill border and the SLOW bus ride up to Kappok ST
Many folks in Riverdale are still upset about a late 1980's bus restructuring:
Riverdale's primary bus service used to be the M100, which ran up to 263rd Street (most times) or 246th Street (rush hours, when the Bx7 kicked in). However, buses would routinely get lost along Amsterdam Avenue and not make it all the way to the top.
To mitigate this, the M100 was split into two routes (M100 and Bx20), and the Bx7 was extended to overlap as far down as 168th Street. As a result, Riverdale's primary bus route now had a "Bx" instead of an "M" - a very rude reminder of being part of the Bronx
What do you mean "buses would routinely get lost along Amsterdam Avenue"?
Ferdinand Cesarano
I have recently moved to Riverdale from Texas. I am bemused by the unwillingness of Riverdalians(?) to use the correct(?) Bronx, NY 10463/10471 line on their mailing addresses. Snobism at work? I'm originally from England and I thing that Bronx is much more exotic!! However I must question the logical correctness of even the use of Bronx in mailing addresses. Surely it should read New Yorn, NY 10463 - after all the street address is in New York City - do any other US cities substitute the name of the city for the name of a borough or county????
better in Queens its the area of queens not even Queens NY ie: Forest Hills, Flushing...
it stems from when queens was little citys and towns and thats why Queens has 3 different zip code prefexies
Five different ones: 110*, 111, 113, 114, 116
And there was only one city, Long Island.
*=Shared with Nassau County.
Except for Queens (and the Riverdale section of the Bronx), the address shown is the borough in which the address is located. It's Brooklyn, NY; Bronx, NY; Staten Island, NY; New York, NY. No, NEVER Manhattan, NY for some reason.
Queens is much more strongly identified with localities, although in recent years the post office is crunching everything into Flushing, Jamaica, Long Island City and Far Rockaway. That's fine if you live in one of those localities, but my parents in Whitestone were annoyed to receive mail showing them in Flushing. The wealthy people in Belle Harbor and Neponsit went absolutely ballastic seeing Far Rockaway on their mail!!
Various neighborhoods in Los Angeles also identify themselves as such. My brother lives in Van Nuys, which while in the valley, is legally part of L.A. His mail is always addressed Van Nuys, CAL. Likewise Hollywood, Encino, Westwood.
U.S. Postal Service DOES not follow city boundaries or local area, as it is common in metro-Denver, Colo. area. I've had customers complain to me about auto insurance being too expensive because of zip code in which their PO is located in Denver but they actually live in Lakewood...if they use Lakewood name, auto insurance will be much lower. I repeatedly told them that auto insurance does not base it on city name, instead they use zip code for each auto rates.
Again it would be impossible for PO to change zip code boundaries as often as city keeps annexing!
Mike the Mailman in Denver, Colo.
Michael Adler
adler1969@aol.com
Mail will be delivered to Manhattan NY. And all the post offices have names, and you can get mail delivered to the names. But some of the names are archaic, and do not tell people where they are.
The interesting thing is that due to the rise of the direct mail industry, zip codes are used to classify neighborhoods and, therefore, people. In NYC, they do not always follow neighborhood boundaries -- Windsor Terrace is split between the Park Slope and Kensington Post Offices.
A few years back California outlawed Insurance companies from Red Lineing insurance rates. (Baseing rates by your zip code) but somehow they got around it. I used to register my car at my sister s address in Whittier, and later a cousins house which was 30 pct cheaper then my zip code. Why my Zip Codes was high, because a State University was around the corner, and so were the student housing and dorms.
since i live in south riverdale, it would actually be correct to write Spuyten Duyvil, NY 10463.. that is the actual official name of the post office on kappock
Actually, there are very few cities in the US that span multiple counties (or parishes in Louisiana, boroughs in Alaska), I know of New York, Houston and Atlanta.
The reason for the local postal address lies in the consolidation which occurred in NYC in 1898. Prior to that time, many parts of NYC were independent towns, e.g. Long Island City, Brooklyn, etc. After the consolidation, these areas kept their identity with the post office. Addresses in these areas still use the original town name despite being absorbed into greater New York City over 100 years ago.
The same rule also holds in other cities, e.g. Boston. Late in the 18th century, Boston absorbed some of its surrounding towns. To date, however, these towns are still addressed using their original names. For example, my current address is Brighton, MA., despite the fact that Brighton is a neighborhood which lies within the city limits of Boston. Brighton was an independent town well over 100 years ago.
Interestingly, Riverdale became part of New York long before the colsolidation of 1898. AFAIK, it was absorbed in the 1870s, when the "annexed district" (i.e. the northwestern Bronx) was incorporated into New York. Nonetheless, Riverdale is still somehwhat "in denial" about being part of the Bronx. Does anybody know when the "annexed district" was first incorporated into the city?
Until some time in the 1950s (I think it was 1953), "New York, NY" was the correct postal designation for both Manhattan and the Bronx. At that time, the Bronx post office was separated from the New York post office, and all the addresses in the Bronx were thereafter to be designated as "Bronx, NY". That includes Riverdale, but you are right, most people in Riverdale use "Riverdale, NY" out of snobbery - that is, because they don't want to be associated with the common image people have of the Bronx. My sister is an exception - she lives in Riverdale but refuses to participate in snobbery, always giving her return address as "Bronx, NY".
Another odd thing about the Bronx is the use of "the" with the name - people live in the Bronx, not "in Bronx", yet the postal designation is simply "Bronx". Computer-generated form letters usually fail to take this into account, resulting in sentences like "If you win our contest, you will be the envy of all your neighbors in Bronx." I wonder if there are any other towns or post office designations in the US that have an implied "the" attached to them the way the Bronx does - I doubt it.
[Another odd thing about the Bronx is the use of "the" with the name - people live in the Bronx, not "in Bronx", yet the postal designation is simply "Bronx". Computer-generated form letters usually fail to take this into account, resulting in sentences like "If you win our contest, you will be the envy of all your neighbors in Bronx." I wonder if there are any other towns or post office designations in the US that have an implied "the" attached to them the way the Bronx does - I doubt it.]
The Dalles, Oregon?
I am so glad that Paul from England/Texas/the Bronx raised the issue of postal designations in New York City. I have long lamented the failure of the Post Office to recognize the consolidation of New York City, and especially its treatment of my home borough of Queens as a suburban county.
This bugs me for two reasons: 1) because it insults me as a proud New Yorker from Queens to be considered the equivalent of a suburbanite, and 2) because it is simply wrong on the facts. The outer boroughs have been part of New York City for over 100 years, and it is long overdue for the Post Office to take notice and begin reflecting this fact.
I mean, even if Manhattan alone is to be called "New York, NY", there should at least be some official marker next to the borough or locality name in a non-Manhattan address to indicate that it is in NYC.
What I suggest (and what I personally use) is the form shown in the header: "Queens, NYC, NY". You could of course substitute any borough or community name for "Queens".
So, you'd have "Bklyn, NYC, NY", "Bronx, NYC, NY" and "Staten Is., NYC, NY"; as well as to the possibilities of "Woodhaven, NYC, NY", "Harlem, NYC, NY", "Riverdale, NYC, NY", etc.
The beauty of this plan is that it would require no change in ZIP code zones or community names, while at the same time succeding in including the important information that the locality in question is part of New York City.
Ferdinand Cesarano
Queens, NYC, NY
Hank, chime in if I am wrong, but Staten Island to the Post Office is Richmond and until the 1980s(?) the bus routes were R such as R7, R10 (random numbers)
It was changed when the borough officially changed it's name from Richmond. I think it's because people confused the busses with the new R-44 (I know that there was no R44 bus, but still).
Oh yes, I forgot to say that this was in 1975.
I understand wht you are saying, but you have to understand the rest of the nation outside NYC.
to be considered a city, town or whatever, you have to have a official zip code. For example I live in Laurelton, Queens. The zip code used for Laurelton is 11413. 11413 belongs to Springfield Gardens. So technically when someone sends mail they are suppose to address it to Springfield Gardens, NY. This situation only occurs in the city of New York, which includes 5 counties which are 5 boroughs; Richmond County (Staten Island), Queens County (Queens), Kings County (Brooklyn), Bronx County (Bronx), New York County (Manhattan). Outside of these places everything returns to normal as far as city and zip code.
As long as you have a zip code correct, you can put any city you want and it will still get there....
Frank D
I used to live in Briarwood, the zip was 11435 which is Jamaica. Even after they opened up a Briarwood post office on Queens Blvd., the zip hasn't changed. Actually, Queens is the only borough were you have to address to letter according to where you live, (Forest Hills, Jamaica, Rego Park, etc.) The other boroughs are addressed by borough, Brookly, Bronx Staten Island and New York, New York. I imagine if you adress something to Queens, New York, it will eventually get there.
Mark, Does the Briarwood Postoffice say Briarwood Branch and under that Jamaica, New York? Or just Briarwood, New York?
My grandmother still gets mail from people that address it Queens, NY, and it seemed to be getting to her in a 2 day time manner according to the post date on the envelope.
Frank D
I live in Queens too, and offically Forest Hills should be Flushing also, ( 113-- zip ) but it goes by forest Hills,
According to the post office if the letter has just a street # and zip code it will get there since the zip code tell the city adn state...
If you put down a postal bar code, do you need to write the zip code at all?
I don't know, but I do know that, if the ZIP+4 uniquely identifies a single mailing address, the post office will insist on the redundancy and will not deliver an item addressed solely to that ZIP+4.
Zip+4 does not uniquely identify a mailing address, only a range. Zip+6 does. The +4 and +6 codes are also subject to change and might not be accurate after 3 months.
Perhaps in NYC, ZIP+4 does not uniquely identify a mailing address.
I do know, though, that I moved two years ago from one apartment to a different apartment within the same building in Urbana, IL. The ZIP+4 changed. In fact, there was a different ZIP+4 for each apartment. It seems pretty likely that each ZIP+4 uniquely identified an address, down to the apartment, in that case. (I don't claim that a ZIP+4 will always uniquely identify an address.)
in my building the zip + 4 is different for group of floor each 4 or 5 floors has each own +4
All the +4 does is designate where the address is physically. On a street, every address on one side has the same +4. For example: my zip is 21234-6938. Every house on the north side of my street has 6938. That helps the carrier pre-sort the mail to be delivered. The south side has a different +4. And so it goes.
The only oddity to +4 is that post office boxes get a +4 equal to the last four digits of the box number. So, the address of the Baltimore Streetcar Museum is P.O Box 4881, Baltimore, MD 21211-4881.
Zip +4 really helps bulk mailers, who get a knock-off on postage if they do the sorting instead of the USPS.
[Zip +4 really helps bulk mailers, who get a knock-off on postage if they do the sorting instead of the USPS.]
How wonderful, more junk mail (sigh).
All the +4 does is designate where the address is physically. On a street, every address on one side has the same +4. For example: my zip is 21234-6938. Every house on the north side of my street has 6938. That helps the carrier pre-sort the mail to be delivered. The south side has a different +4. And so it goes.
As I posted earlier, I moved within a building in 1998 and my ZIP+4 changed (from 61801-2360 to 61801-2372). The building has only 24 apartments but it has seven ZIP+4's (one per four apartments plus one for apartmentless addresses) -- so, if you have access to the relevant information, you can tell me not only which building I lived in but which half of which floor I lived on. My current building, with 12 apartments, has three ZIP+4's. And my parents' building in Manhattan has four ZIP+4's.
Actually, carriers like me does NOT sort these ZIP+4, it is sorted by computers in which it is ready for us to take it out to the streets, it is called DPS (Delivery Point Sequencing). Each ZIP+4 does not cover north or south side of each block, it could be 7 houses to one ZIP+4. There are apartments that have serveral different ZIP+4, this helps DPS sort apartment numbers in order. example is one ZIP+4 is one section of the mailboxes, you can see 4,5,6 boxes in one section, this usually have their own ZIP+4 and we as carriers can put DPS mails in order without having go back and forth in the mailbox areas!
And I wonder why would you post postal question on SubTalk? this has nothing to do with subways. If you want to post this kind of questions, kindly post it to alt.snail-mail newsgroups or some kind of postal message boards.
Mike the Mailman
In my apartment building in the Bronx every apartment has a different +4 number.
Peace,
Andee
Only on a short block with only private homes would the whole block have the same Zip+4 code. My BUILDING doesn't even have the same Zip+4 code for all the apartments. If you look up my address in the USPS database without specifying an apartment number, the +4 suffix is 2570. Specify the apartment and it is 2554. I think each code covers about 8 apartments. Oddly enough, it isn't done by floor. My 2554 code covers some (not all) apartments on my floor, and some on the next floor up. Weird.
This means that you are looking at 8 mailboxes in one section (one key to open a section of 8 boxes) thus, that section has it's own ZIP+4, then the next section of mailboxes has another ZIP+4. (This usually works that way in Denver, but that's not the real case, each section could have 1 or more ZIP+4)
Mike the Mailman
I don't remember, I'll have to swing by there and take a look. The only thing I remember is it has the 11435 zip code, the same as the Archer Avenue post office.
I believe that Briarwood is a substation of Jamaica.
Clearly it is. The zip at that station is 11435, the same as Archer Avenue. The Briarwood Community Association for years has been trying to get a separate zip code for Briarwood, with no success. They have changed the official name of the Van Wyke Blvd. station to Van Wyke Briarwood. The new name is on the metal signs on the polls. There is no effort being made to change the tiles.
Queens and parts of Los Angeles are the only areas I'm aware of that mandate living in the past. The independent municipalities of Forest Hills, etc. ceased to exist upon unification with the City of New York, yet after 102 years we still must pretend it never happpened.
Actually, it would make more sense for the U.S. Postal Service to replace ALL borough and neighborhood names with New York, NY. We're part of one big city - let's just recognize that fact and move on already.
Yeah, but you have so many street names that repeat in each borough, it would get too confusing. Everyone has a Broadway, Brooklyn has an avenue and street system with east and west like Manhattan, it would never work. Besides, if we can't all have the same area code, well youknow.
Thank you - i could not have explained it better myself.......although I did try!
Question: Why are Queens building address numbers hyphenated (i.e. 86-22)? Something I've always wondered about...
The upper Riverside Drive addresses are too. I like it, it makes it clearer.
The address (i.e. your example 86-22) means: the 86th block, 22nd lot. Let's say the address was 86-22 249th Street. That would put the building between 86th Avenue and 87th Avenue. The Avenues (and their associated Drives, Roads, Terraces) run roughly east-west; Streets (and their associated Places, Lanes, Courts) run north-south.
Only an Avenue or a Street can change the prefix of the building number.
Wayne
Your explanation can pretty well apply to any urban grid...but was there a specific reason why the hyphen was inserted? A quirk in the zoning board's rules or members, perhaps?
Also, in Decater (spelling?) Illinois there is a "324th street", the highest numbered street in the entire US. And it's in a city half the size of Staten Island.
Drive on Interstate 10 west of Phoenix about 40 miles or so, and you come to an exit which I believe is called "477th Aveune" which is out in the middle of the desert, but still in Maricopa County.
Must be some very optimistic planning people in Arizona.
The way Phoenix is growing, it might make it.
Aren't some streets in the Seattle area carrying higher numbers than 324? And don't forget the odd street numbering patterns in Utah - especially the Salt Lake City area - where you get streets like West 6000 North.
Wayne
loking at the color of the sign it looks like queens before all street signs turned green w/ white letter each brough had its own colored signs,Man Yellow w/ black, Queens White w/ blue Brooklyn Black w/ white
Its not clear but the sign is deffinitly not Black with white letters... so it looks like a train running through Queens maybe the M or J
Do other subway systems have problems with a buildup of steel dust in tunnels and stations? Is this unique to New York because of 24 hr. operation? Heavier traffic and more frequent service? Or is it simply poor maintenance?
I'd say the problem is fairly uniform throughout the industry, but obviously a function of how often (or if) the tunnels are cleaned. Its probably also a function of track/flange lubrication, tread vs. disk brakes, etc also. No shortage of steel dust here in Boston, or in Phila.
I heard Montreal experiences quite a problem with rubber dust from
the tires on the trains. Perhaps Paris and Mexico City are the same.
Since the NYC Transit System went to composition brake shoes, the amount of steel dust in the system has become negligable.
*[Since the NYC Transit System went to composition brake shoes, the amount of steel dust in the system has become negligable.]*
How long ago did this switch occur? It seems to me that the steel dust level in the subway is very high--a shame, really, because it makes newly renovated stations look dingy in a short time. The Broadway-Lafayette station, for example, couldn't have been renovated more than four or five years ago and already the walls above the mezzanine are beginning to turn dark grey due to accumulating steel dust. I can bet that the new mosaics on the Lex platform at Grand Central will look even worse in only a couple years.
What you see is not steel dust. The composite shoes give off dust. There is normal dirt and grime too. There are a tremendous number of air-bourne pollutants but they are not 'steel dust'.
What lines have the worst steel (tunnel) dust?
From what I can remember it was pretty thick down on the lower level of 59th street (4/5).
If the 1999 remake of the 1980 movie has been discussed here, I must have missed it, so I hesitantly bring it up. I saw it last night, and at about the one hour point there is a brief subway scene, less than two minutes in length. The scene supposedly stars two trains of Slant R-40's. The two cars involved are 4294 and 4464. There are supposedly two trains involved, but in one shot it would appear that the two cars are coupled together, perhaps as the 4th and 5th cars in the same train. The trains are supposed to be going uptown, but seem to be running on a downtown track. The viewer is to think that two different stations were involved, one being 158th St, and the other unknown. Since I am unaware of a 158th St station, I am assuming that it was filmed at a doctored station somewhere, and that only one train and one station were used. Has anybody on the site seen the 1999 remake of "Gloria", starring Sharon Stone, and can you enlighten me as to where it was filmed?
Am I the only one who has seen this movie?
No, you're not the only one -- but you may be the only one to watch it in its entirety. It seems like it has been constantly on my TV for the last few weeks as HBO is playing it again and again. I haven't watched for more than 10 minutes at a time, though -- and thus haven't seen the subway scene.
At least now I have a reason to watch the whole thing. It's amazing the little things that keep me happy.
Chuck
I saw the movie intermittently this weekend, and caught a piece of the scene in the subway. It looked like an express IND station was being used, with doctored 158 St. signage. My guess is that either 2 Avenue or Prospect Park-7th Ave. could have been the sites, but I can't recall if there was a shot of the color of the wall tiles. I beleive the Prospect Park station was used in the Rosie Perez Subway Stories movie.
Hope this helps.
Church Avenue station was also used (doctored AND undoctored) in the "Subway Stories", as was Broad Street and the aforementioned Prospect Park. The vignette with the saxophonist and the cantor was ALL Church Avenue.
When's the next time "Gloria" will be on? I'm too lazy to look in the TV Guide :o>
Wayne
The new version does not seem to be listed for the next few weeks, but the 1980 version is going to be on Cinemax in about two weeks. I saw the 1999 version on a rental tape, I'm not sure it has been on TV yet unless it was on PPV.
The 1999 version was on HBO about a month or so ago.
Some Blockbuster Video Stores are selling them as PVT's (previously viewed tapes) for only $4.99. That is a reasonable price for a movie filmed in New York, with a small amount of subway footage in it...... providing the copy you get isn't butchered up by a previous viewer!
Yeah, that's for sure. Once I rented a movie, and in the middle, someone who previously rented it actually used it to tape some bedroom antics (a duet!!) with their camcorder. They actually went through the trouble of blocking the anti-record hole! The REALLY funny thing was that when I brought it to the attention of the folks at the video store, they all laughed and tried to blame one of the employees!
That must have been a shock! I never ran into anything like that, but I have seen many damaged tapes. I rented one a few years ago where most of the tape was in reverse on the spool, with the dull side out. I wonder what condition some VCR's must be in or what must some people do to their VCR's while playing the tape to mess it up so badly.
You have GOT to see this version, there is the most HILARIOUS scene near the end of it- supposedly this Gloria character has told this little kid to go to this place in Pittsburgh, going on the train. Well, believe it or not, they show this little 7(?) year old kid getting on a NJT commuter coach at Hoboken; and THATS supposed to be the train to Pittsburgh!! John Cassavates (who wrote and directed this version..and starred his wife Gena Rowlands) was notorious for putting together productions on the fly like this..although there is a nice scene on the West Side IRT {where she utters the immortal "You let a woman beat ya..You let a woman get the best of ya!" to some mob guys, gun pointed at them as the train doors close
I hope to real soon! After seeing the remake, I am very curious about the 1980 version. If you say the electric cars at Hoboken are in it, I really want to see it.
Nah...I believe its just a push/pull set of Bombardier cars...
"Architect's Challenge: To Make DeKalb Station Flow"
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/regional/ny-dekalb-renovate.html
-- David
Chicago, IL
Looks good if it comes to pass. Thing is, DeKalb was renovated once before, in the early 1980s, but it was a real cut rate half-assed job. They put those slippery tiles on the station platforms, installed slats on the fluorescent lights (which made DeKalb incredibly dim: they were soon removed) and some of the ceramics were covered with bland tilework. This was still the era when the old ceramics were thought to be leftovers of an, er, forgotten age and not a part of the brave new world: cf. the BMT Broadway Line, which covered all the ceramics in the late 60s.
Those ceramics wait under the gray, tomato, blue and yellow tiles, ready to blossom once more.
What I like about DeKalb, and I hope they don't change, is the message boards that tell you what train is on the way.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The station undoubtedly needs a do-over. Aside from its dinginess, I remember one afternoon last year seeing a big slab of concrete on the platform that fell off from the ceiling.
The article mentioned that elevators would be installed linking the mezzanine and platform levels. How will that be accomplished? Wouldn't that require a larger mezzanine? And if they do extend the mezzanine, aren't there offices and control towers right on the mezzanine level?
It is also undoubtedly nice to see a Brooklyn Tech graduate work on that station. Tens of thousands of Brooklyn Tech students used that station since the 1930's, icluding myself. I guess someone should take some pictures before they begin renovations.
02/04/2000
David Cole,
I clicked on that url you posted received a "page not found" listing. Can this be corrected?
Bill Newkirk
>>>I clicked on that url you posted received a "page not found" listing. Can this be corrected? <<<
That's becasue the skinflints at the Times take down all articles after one day. To look at it now, you gotta pay up.
No you don't, just e-mail me!
I'll send Bill a copy now.
I forked over my ten bits and got a hold of the article.
(The following contains 51 words.)
"The original mosaics on the track walls are to be as fresh-looking as when they were installed early in the last century and will again be in sharp focus...
New white tiles, as sparkling as a freshly scrubbed bathtub at home, are to cover the walls in place of grimy, cracked or missing tiles."
They have their work cut out for them in the above respect - however,
it looks like they're going to send in the troops - no doubt the same folks that rescued 95th Street, 36th Street and Pacific Street from oblivion. There are LOTS of missing tiles in the frieze and tablets. Some of them are barely clinging to the wall. This is typical Mud Wall tile construction, so it shouldn't be that difficult to fix. They have to get behind the spots that are starting to pull away from the wall and re-cement them. As for the missing pieces, careful attention to color matching should be given, as was done at the other stations. And no doubt they're going to break out that vile-smelling glaze again, like they did at 36th Street. That stuff takes your breath away. I walked into a cloud of it a few years back at 36th Street. The workmen applying it were wearing their masks for good reason.
I am looking forward to seeing this renovation and once it starts, will report on its progress. If any station needs work, De Kalb Avenue does. After he's finished, maybe we could send the architect over to Chambers Street and let him have a go at THAT one.
Wayne
yeah i wanna know because i heard it on the news down here in pittsburgh,and i write so i wanted to know.
am one
They were apparently 'train surfing' on the roof of a moving subway train in Brooklyn, when they both fell off and were killed.
If you are a tagger from Pittsburgh, have you tried the latest fad - "Coupler Catching". It's very simple. Stand between the two running rails with your back to the train. As the train approaches, begin to run and just before you get hit, do a vertical leap so that you land straddling the coupler. Let me know how you make out....
Excellent point!
On a freight RR, that would be a JUMBO size KNUCKLE SANDWICH!!!
Very simple, two objects tried to be in the same place at the same time. Guess which object won that contest??
"Very simple, two objects tried to be in the same place at the same time. Guess which object won that contest??"
The one with brains.
Alan Glick
The one made of solid steel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They tried to ride on top of a moving subway train, but a low-hanging overpass beam kind of settled the question in a manner of speaking.
On a Batman toon, Batman rescues two "surfers" from the top of a subway car just as it goes into a tunnel. They boys are then told how stupid they were.
The toon predates the actual event, wonder if they got the idea from it.....
However, the Dark Knight was not around to save those two in our Gotham.
Has the E ever seen regular service in Brooklyn before this week?
www.forgotten-ny.com
YES!
The 1968 TA map I have in front of me shows the E as:
E-Queens Blvd, 8th Ave, Fulton. It ran from 179th Street, Jamaica to Rockaway Park & Far Rockaway.
Note from map:
Only rush hour trains carry Euclid Ave, Far Rockaway or Rockaway Park signs, and skip 23rd Street-8th Ave & Spring st. All other times trains run between Chambers Street-Hudson Terminal and 179th Street, Jamaica.
Not shown above, E trains leave Lefferts Blvd. 7:20AM to 7:40AM Mon-Fri and arrive there 5:45PM-6:05PM
I hope this helps you.
Look at the way things are designed. The E can get on the Fulton Express, which runs directly to Brooklyn. Clearly the original plan was to have two expresses to Brooklyn, one or two locals to WTC, and no switching. And you used to have three locals on the 8th Avenue line -- two to WTC.
Then ridership fell, especially in Bed Stuy. Bye Bye AA and Fulton Express in Brooklyn.
Yes.
before the WTC was built
Before the WTC, the trains still stopped there. It was then known as Chambers-Hudson Terminal
While the original IND planned for more than one Fulton express, there has never been more than one. When the E was the express in Brooklyn, the A ran local and the CC ran to WTC.
The IND SYSTEM planned the Fulton st. line as a four track subway to south Jamaica near Nassau County border with connections to the Rockaway and Van Wyck Bvld subway lines. The Fulton st route was to have to river tunnels to Manhattan[ Cranberry street and Court st stub to the 2 Avenue line].Due to the failure, the 2 ave line was never built and the service plan was never put into effect. Thus,the Court st. line was to be the Fulton st.local without a Manhattan entry[south jamica was scrapped too.the TA couldn't decided where to place the route and funding diappeared for some reason].Without a separate route for the local service,Fulton street service was underserved. this continued until this very day, with both 8th av.exp/local crammed through the EAST RIVER tunnel at Cranberry st. The Fulton st local from Court st never ran past Hoyt st,while the A ran local until Eucild Av. terminal opened. This problem could be solved somewhat by diverting some local service to the RUTGERS ST. TUBE. This may cause some problems[Jay st crossover in front of F trains]but this can be worked out with a few ajustments.
It's too bad the plan wasn't put into effect, but you can't say the Fulton St line in under-served. In fact, it might be the best in the borough.
Since it was never extended out to Jamaica, it doesn't bet those passengers. And since the population of Bed-Stuy fell by 40 percent in a decade 1970-80, it doesn't have as much demand there either. It would be nice to have more service, but the Fulton St line is not overcrowded. You're better off than those that rely on the Manhattan Bridge.
The problem on the Fulton St. line, like many lines, is that everyone packs onto the express like lemmings. So they increase the number of expresses, and cut the number of C locals to the minimum, but the express is still crowded, while the local is not.
What to do? If we had a few extra cars, I'd turn Utica and Nostrand into local-only stops, so everyone in Bed Stuy would have to ride the C, instead of packing on the A. Then I'd increase the number of C's to at least 10 at rush hour, cutting the number of A's if necessary. (Maybe the local stations could keep the E).
In other words, make it like the other end of the line (with its express from 125th to 59th), the close in people get the local just for themselves, and the far out people get the express. That seems to work best.
Make the A a Local and the C/E Express on Fulton
The AA wasn't eliminated. It was absorbed into the C, not before becoming the K.
Change the r to an l in Prague, then you'll be
The Plague.
That will similar to going from Bombay Best to
Bombay Pest.
Ahh, but why did I change it to the Prague? Becuase of that very reason! I would have changed it to Vienna, had I not discovered that.
That was when the E ran express along Fulton St. I have that same map. It doesn't actually show E service going to Lefferts Blvd., but that footnote clarifies that. The 1967 TA map DOES show a broken light blue line (the E's original color) drawn out to Lefferts Blvd. along with the A's solid blue line. The line notes on the 1967 map were different than on later maps. They were written in essay form, it seems. The E notes were something like this: E trains run express between 42nd St. and Chambers St., continuing onto Euclid Ave. and Far Rockaway, with some trains terminating at Lefferts Blvd., during rush hours. During non-rush hours, trains operate as locals (AARRRRGHHH!)along 8th Ave. terminating at Chambers St.-Hudson Terminal (The WTC didn't exist back then).
Yes. Originally, the E served the Houston St line from 1933-1940. It then saw rush hour service on the Fulton St. line until 1976. Sometimes it was an express, sometimes it was a local.
I remember the E on Houston to 2nd or Bdwy Laffayette in the early 50s and the D to Hudson Terminal. After the Culver connection in 1954, the F ran on Houston and the E to Hudson Term, and the D to CI
according the the 1974 map on this site the A and E went to Far Rockaway and the AA and CC ended at Hudson TErm/ WTC
So what train ran on Fulton?
The A.
How is that possible if Houston only opened in 1936?
The E served Houston st AND Smith st. from 1936 to 1940. It was replaced by the F. The A served Smith st.untill 1936 when the FULTON ST line opened to Rockaway Av. E trains ran to 2 ave until the 1948 when it was extended to Eucild Av rush hours.Non-rush hours trains went to Hudson Terminal.
Yes. Before the 70's, the E went to Euclid and the C to WTC.
1976 to be exact. Also, E trains that ran to Brooklyn ran express in Manhattan.
And for several years during the early 70s, southbound rush hour E trains used the lower level at 42nd St. I remember seeing signs announcing the upcoming service change when that pattern was implemented.
Fulton St. express service flipflopped between the A and E for some time before the E was permanently cut back to WTC.
Having worked in Long Island the past few years, I haven't dealt with NYC rush hours lately.
A new wrinkle I've noticed is orange jackets stationed on the platforms, encourging "let 'em off first" and "move into the car" and the like. They don't actually push them into the cars like in Tokyo, but almost.
How long have they been there?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I've noticed them for quite some time now...
Maybe as far back as Feb. of last year. (but it is only a theory)
Can anyone else shed some light on the start of this phenomenon?
Stu
They have them stationed at the busier stations, Lex and 53rd, Roosevelt Ave, Grand Central, etc..
they each have a flach light with witch the signle the CTO when the doors are clear to close, and they try to keep the people moving
They're actually needed at really packed platforms. I see them every workday at Broadway/ENY on the A/C platform.
It kind of reminds me of those images of Japanese subway platforms with the 'rush-hour pushers'.
I noticed that most of the guys are carrying flashlights and use them to signal the Conductor when they should close or open the doors. At least I believe that's what they're doing.
Doug aka BMTman
Once upon a time, they were at all the major, really busy stations during rush hours. With job cut backs, alot of those platform jobs were gotten rid of. In the IRT, you can find them during rush hours at Grand Cenrtal, 51/Lex, Fulton/Lex, and depending on availability, TS, Wall/7 Ave, 59/Lex, 86/Lex, Bowling Green, B'klyn Bridge, Columbus Circle, 14/Lex. During GOs, they can be found at all sorts of places, depending on service changes. Most of them are CR, usually restricted for some reason. And, as everyone has figured out, the flashlights are used to communicate with the CRs -- up and down is okay to close, side to side is stop (or Reopen).
It was first started at Grand Central as a pilot program in 1997. They also painted orange spaces where the doors are supposed to open, made the stairs one-way and included automated station announcements.
The E reroute made me think of a question:
Is it possible to run a subway line through four boroughs *without reversing the train* at some point? Has it ever been done in an emergency?
It would have to involve the IND's Bronx trackage. The only way I could see it would be to run it through Coney Island OR use the little used connection near Essex Street and run it along the Broadway Elevated and end up at Parsons- Archer.
www.forgotten-ny.com
All you would need is a "KK" type line that goes up to the Concourse instead of 57st Street:Jamaica El in QueensBway El in Bklyn6th Av and CPW in ManhattanConcourse line in Bronx
I think the C did it back in the 80s or early 90s. From Bedford Park Blvd, out to Rockaway during Rush Hours, Concourse Line Bx 8th Ave Manhatten Fulton Bklyn, Rockaway Queens
Yes, the "C" did run regular to Rockaway at that time. Making it the longest one fare single seat ride in the system at that time. 31 or 32 miles I believe.
Peace,
Andee
The C did not run from Bedford Park Blvd to Rockaway Park but it was still not as long as the A from 207 to Far Rockaway 32.39 miles. The longest possible route which has been run was the E from 179 to Far Rock,36+ miles.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I believe the route the C took prior to 1992 (Bedford Pk. Bvd. to Rockaway Pk.) is actually longer than the A route from 207th St. to Mott Ave. I'm not sure, but looking at the subway map, it has to be.
BTW, only alternate C trains went to Rockaway. The others terminated at Euclid. I once rode the entire C line from BPB to Rockaway Park in 1986 on an un-GOH'd R10. Took almost 2 hours.
It is longer (I do not know exact miles) Bedford Park Blvd. is further north than 207th Street in Manhattan.
Peace,
Andee
But remember, the Rockaway part that the A travels on is longer than what the C (now the shuttle) used. I was just wondering if the longer length of the Mott Ave. branch cancels out the longer length of the C line to BPB.
No, it doesn't
Peace,
Andee
.Chris: I made a mistake in my earlier posting. I meant to say that the CC and later the C did run between Bedford Park and Rockaway Park at one time. Further checking I find that the A between 207 and Far Rock may be in a near dead heat with the above C route. The TA says that the longest (current) route is the A between 207 and Far Rock at 32.39 miles. This is from a 1979 source when the CC was running between BPB and Rockaway Pk. However when I checked another source I came up with 32.39 for the A and 32.49 for the CC. Note that the discrepency is one tenth of a mile,about the length of a subway platform. I wonder if anyone has the exact mileage.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Of course this controversy could be ended by having the C start at 205 instead of BPB.
Or from 168th as it is now.
That was directed to #9306WF (I hate those cars!)
If Larry says it, it must be so. Are you an Exec for the Transit Authority? I have to hand it to you, you're the guy I've learned the most from. You are a walking encyclopedia for the NY Subway. Keep the good info coming.
I remembering waiting back then for a A train atJFK/connection and the C came thru. I still waited for the A and it finally caught up with the C at Utica.
Was that an A train of slant R-40s, perhaps?
So what's longer this month, the E or the A?
Dear Humans II ???
The longest possible route is the E from 179 St to Far Rock at 36.42 miles followed by the E from 179 St to Rock Park at 34.92. After this comes the A at 32.39 according to the TA however as I said to Chris this may be in a tie with the CC/C from Bedford Park to Rockaway Park.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I always thought the old #2 route from 241st St. to New Lots was nearly as long as the A route to Rockaway. At least it appears to on the subway map.
Chris: The #2 between 241 and New Lots is the longest IRT route at about 26.72 miles. The #5 between 241 and New Lots is next with 26.12 miles.
These are the longest IRT routes.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Dont you mean 238-NL?
I worded that answer a poorly. I should have said that the second longest IRT line is from 241 to NL via Lexington. Although no trains currrently run between these two points the #5 did so until fairly recently.
Larry,RedbirdR33
They special rush hour 2 that run between NL and 241St....
3TM
Bx-Man-Bk No Queens, short about 1 mile
Larry,
I note your interesting information on the longest distances on the various routes/lines.
There are a lot of distance details on this site in the timelines, but unfortunantely they are not all complete; I also have the book 'The Subway' by Fischler which again has many details but not all.
Do you know where one can obtain all distances, please? Even station to station and length of total lines?
Various sources give distances on the London tubes so I wonder what is available about NY?
Ian: The Electric Railroads Association printed up an IRT map circa 1930's with complete station to station mileage and timings for all IRT subway and el lines. The August 1968 issue of the ERA New York Division Bulletin has mileage for all of Division B but only for the major stations. Perhaps if you contact them they might be able to send them to you.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I was asking if the current E rerouted to Euclid is longer than the A. Although that seems unlikely.
Humans: I do not have the precise mileage for the Archer Avenue Line.
However the E from 179 Street to Euclid Avenue was 25.04 miles.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It would probably be less than that, since the Archer Ave. line doesn't go as far as the Hillside Ave. portion.
Does anyone know what is the longest single rapid transit line in No America without a change of train. I think it is BARTS Colma-Pittsburg line over 40 miles.
Right! I forgot about the Rockaways, which are in Queens.
The C, from 1976-1992, ran from the Bronx, through Manhattan, Brooklyn, and it terminated in Rockaway Pk, Queens.
#7's come more frequently than any other train in the MTA. Headways during rush hours are only a couple of minutes.
The reason they can run so many #7's, I've heard, is that the #7 doesn't share its route with any other train, unless you count the express/local #7's.
That being the case, why can't they run more L trains? After all, the L is also an "only child" with no other lines sharing its trackage, at present. Is it the lack of an express track?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Ive lived along the L line all my life and it just seems to be the forgotten stepchild of the MTA. Even when there are delays and shutdowns you dont even hear bout it on the news like the rest of the lines
If "only children" can have shorter headways, what about the #6? It could certainly add trains, especially if they weren't so paranoid about getting every last person off before going around the loop.
The problem is that everyone packs on the express, and there is remaining capacity on the local even now.
You know the Canarsie line once had an express. Expresses used AB's and immediately preceeded Multis that ran local. By the time the express caught up to its leader (Myrtle Avenue), the leader turned on the center track and the express continued. This was feasible since the AB's and Multis had varying acceleration rates. Since this happened before I was born I'll defer to anyone with genuine experience riding it. But that's how I was told it was done!
They also thought about skip-stop on the "L" but never did it, that I know of.
I used the "L" regularly from 1991-93 and sporadically all the time I lived in NYC. I loved it, usually reliable (especially in snow), but slow as molasses and always a transfer required in Manhattan (except when I went to NYU).
When I worked for the City I thought a neat idea would have been to extend the L from 8th Ave up the "high line" to the Javits Center, but the #7 line extension seemed to be a better idea, so it won out (such as things were). Too bad, anything to save the high line would be a good idea at this point.
Another idea I put on paper would have been a "shoofly" around the S-curve, most likely between Graham and Jefferson. I thought about a 1-track tunnel under the Newtown Creek that would have allowed some limited peak flow leapfrog service, similar to what PATCO does in Camden. Admittedly, though, demand would be weak, but it would probably have been easy to build.
TRIVIA QUESTION: Does anyone know the reason why Morgan Avenue and Bushwick-Aberdeen (I think those are the two) have tiled columns instead of steel? I've noticed this but never heard an answer. Was it an experiment, or a response to some unique construction challenge?
From what other SubTalkers have told me: tiled columns are required by law due to Fire Regulations whenever subway stations run beneath buildings.
So I assume at Bushwick-Arberdeen the station was built beneath (or partially beneath) some dwelling of some kind.
Doug aka BMTman
DOUG: Interesting, Thanks! CONRAD
Bushwick-Aberdeen station sits beneath dwellings both on Aberdeen Street and DeSales Place, hence the mandates for tiled columns.
As for Morgan Avenue, it runs just parallel to Harrison Place and McKibbin Street, and beneath buildings on the north sides of both streets.
Wayne
When I rode both 14th Street expresses in the early 1950s, both (#16 to Canarsie and #13 to Lefferts) operated with Multi-Sections. Certainly there were no 14th Street-Fulton Street expresses with Standards, because the section of el from Atlantic Avenue past Grant Avenue (the old "City Line") wouldn't have taken the weight of the Standards. I remember locals to Myrtle Avenue more often with Standards, the opposite of what Conrad Misek mentions.
I didn't live in that area so my riding was not regular, though my sister lived in Ridgewood from around 1945 until late 1953 and I frequently used the train to get there (when I didn't ride the DeKalb Avenue trolley while that was still running).
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
There reportedly was a problem with the vetilation system in the East River tunnel that allowed only one L train at a time to pass through in either direction, which would really cut down on the frequency of trains. Someone else might be able to tell you if that problem has been fixed.
It was fixed. I'm not sure, but it's a car shortage that keeps the TA from increasing L service at this time. Blame the morons who decided to scrap, rather than mothball, the R30 redbirds in 1993.
12 trains per hour during the rush sounds more than adequate for the L.
[12 trains per hour during the rush sounds more than adequate for the L.]
A couple of mornings per month, just for variety's sake, I get off the LIRR at East New York and take the L from Atlantic to Union Square. I usually get on the L a few minutes after 8 am. There generally are seats available at Atlantic and sometimes as far as Myrtle. The trains do not become uncomfortably crowded until Bedford, which is of course the last stop in Brooklyn.
Based on this experience, I'd say that more rush-hour service on the L would be nice, but isn't by any means essential.
I attended the old Stuyvesant HS (on 15th between 1st and 2nd) in the mid-60's. I seem to remember that in rush hours some of the Canarsie Line (pre letter days) eastbound trains would terminate at Myrtle Avenue rather than going out to Rockaway Parkway (being sure to come to a full stop at 105th St). Perhaps this turnaround could be reinstituted depending on where the demand originates.
The major reason for the difference in rush hour train frequency is the NYCT schedule makers. They are currently up to 29 tph on the Flushing Line, down from a peak of 36 tph a few decades ago. This is within the theoretical peak of 30 tph for the 14th St Line.
The difference between the #7's theoretical peak of 40 tph and the 14th St Line's 30 is due to the configuration of the Manhattan terminals. The tail tracks extending to 8th Ave at Times Square permit Flushing trains to enter the station faster than 14th St trains entering the bumper ended 8th Av terminal.
While both lines do not share their tracks with other lines, the Flushing Line is more isolated. Moving or removing cars from the Corona Yard to other parts of the IRT takes half a day. By contrast, the ENY yard could be emptied in a flash, should the Southern District require an immediate car infusion.
When the 7 was doing 38TPH, weren't they discharging at Times Sq and a motorman would jump on the Queens end and they would deadhead the train out, keying by most signals??
I know even now an arriving crew waits for the "next" train, instead of having the T/O rush to the other end of his train.
The #7 ran only 36 tph. Reverse direction trains terminated at 111th as well as Main St because Main St can handle only 30 tph. Trains originated at Willets Pt and 111th as well as Main St.
One would assume that a crew change or at least a T/O change is necessary to turn trains around in 180 seconds. Just walking from one end to another takes 110 seconds. That's an operational detail - not a physical constraint.
Keying by was [is] not necessary to maintain these headways.
>>That's an operational detail - not a physical constraint.
Well give em roller blades >G<
Excuse my ignorance, but I thought "jeying-by" required the motorman to get out of the train and descend to the tracks to do the "keying" Is this correct since I would think that if a motorman had to do this every couplke of minutes as in the case just mentined, itd be a pain as well as time consuming...
No, keying requires the T/O to move so slowly (about 2 km/h) that the front wheels enter the next block before the trip pushes the emergency brake. Then, the trip will descend, at which point the train can go FULL SPEED right into a train in the same block.
I used to railfan the 14th Street/Canarsie Line a lot before it even became the "L", and I just don't think the patronage has ever been there to warrant service at 30 tph.
If there were more meaningful connections along the line or a track connection with the IND Crosstown Line, then I think high service would be needed and would make the 14th Street tunnel more than an underutilized asset.
The original plans of the Broadway EL had trains coming of the Williamsburg Bridge into the Centre st line with a connection to the Broadway subway line via a short tunnel. Does anyone think this would work or should be concidered as part of TA expandtion? New connections are needed today to give riders more choices.
(Connect the Broadway Brooklyn Line to the Broadway Manhattan Line)
I'd put this one way down the list, since we already built a connection from the Broadway Brooklyn line to the 6th Avenue line, and it isn't even used. Did you know it was there? Yep, the J or Z could run north on 6th Avenue through Midtown if they wanted it to.
Now there is one 63rd Street tunnel possiblity no one considered -- running the J/Z north as a 6th Avenue local, through the 63rd Street tunnel, and out to 71st Street as a Queens Blvd local. The M would run south. With the A/B tracks out of action, perhaps another DeKalb train would use the Montigue tunnel and Nassau Street, terminating at Chambers.
I thought of that one before. Jamaica Term to Jamaica Term.
I prefer "6th Ave local from Jamaica Center to Jamaica Center via tunnel and bridge".
The problem with this idea is that this routing would be limited to shorter trains (because of the BMT Eastern Division limits) than are desirable to run on the Queens Boulevard Line.
I still think a proposal is need that would make the 14th Street line more useful since this is the most underutilized of the East River crossings.
If they had built the 63rd Street "super express" line along the LIRR right of way through Maspeth to Jamaica, an extension from the L along Metropolitan Ave. could have been connected to it to creat another line into Manhattan. But other than that, it's tough to see what you could connect the L up to (the G?, the J/Z towards Jamaica?) that would attract new riders.
It's all pie in the sky, but Brooklyn has four underused tunnels and a couple of cracking, rusty bridges. Surely something could be done?
One option is the forever on the drawing boards Utica Avenue subway. Rather than hooking it into the crowded IRT, perhaps it could run north through the planned Fulton St line connection, up Broadway and Bushwick, and into the 14th street Eastern line. The Jamaica Avenue El could also be extended (eliminating the curve) and run into the 14th Street-Eastern Line. So you'd have three services, with perhaps 8 to 12 train each, converging on that tunnel. The 14th Street line could be extended east, to a higher capacity terminal.
Note that in this scenario there would be a station within walking distance of every place served by the Broadway El, except Ridgewood.
Another option is to serve Southwest Queens (Maspeth, Middle Village, Glendale) from a branch off Metropolitan Ave, if NIMBY fever ever dies down.
The 14th St line is a great line -- to bad they didn't add a third express track. But even local, it gets from Broadway Junction to 14th Street and 8th Avenue as fast as the A, with more transfer options.
The L line should be able to handle 15-18 trains per hour during the rush. An extension past 8th Ave might allow for increased capacity at this end of he line.
I've been told that the typical NYC subway line can handle 25 trains per hour right now. The advanced signals would allow for even more capacity on the L, although the turnaround capacity at 8th Avenue may limit capacity. But the L only has 12 to 14 trains per hour now, that that's about what it needs to serve the areas it serves.
If the era of large scale subway construction were to return, there is some obvious potential to hook more lines from more places up to this line. It is an under-used asset.
This line was designed to serve both Canarsie and the Lefferts Blvd. leg of the Fulton el. So hooking in another line is certainly possible.
If the NIMBY's didn't exist, the Montaulk LIRR could be converted to a subway line and it could be a second branch of the 14th St. line serving Maspeth, Glendale and Richmond Hill.
Why should the Montalk Line be a branch, it would be its own seperate line, maybe even conecting with the 63rd St tunnel
I heard that in the 60s (probably before Harold Fisher, who hated els) the TA seriously thought about extending the Jamaica El to Hillside Avenue somewhere around 179th Street, and a transfer to the E/F.
Of course, Jamaica was different then, with Mays, Gertz and so forth. The idea would have been to give Hillside Avenue bus riders a choice of trains to downtown. This would have taken some pressure off the IND and put it on the BMT; maybe even enough to justify the Jamaica El third track.
Post - Chrysite Street, then, one could have had a 179 Street to 179 Street train terminating in the same place on two different levels. Interesting.........
Correct, and now one could easily have an Archer-to-Archer service, via Queens Blvd - 6th Av - Chrystie - Jamaica. Not that it will ever happen.
O already said that twice
02/06/2000
If there was any Archer Ave. to Archer Ave. service, would it be called BOOMERANG service!
Bill Newkirk
That would have been a MUCH cheaper alternative to the Archer Ave. subway, while basically providing the same service.
With due respect to the two Marks and the Bill and
the holy Webmaster Pirmann, I am interested in meeting
other redbird fans to ride the rails of the birds.
Anyone up for some?
Count me in!!!! E-mail me.
Sorry you missed the IRT's birthday when a small group rode Red and not so Red Birds all day (with a side trip to Coney Island) this past October.
Suggestion: Think of a "Field Trip" incl. some interesting points of interest to draw in a few friends to tag along with you. I'll be doing a repeat of a Field Trip the "Beaches of Rock & Long" this Summer. Friends can join me at Main Street about 4 PM or Jay St. about 6 PM. My Field Trip doesn't make many stops because it's a long one and includes bus as well as subway rides. This year I plan to ask the wife to meet us at Long Beach with a Volley Ball brought via my convertable.
My point, get creative, think of ways we can have FUN enjoying our favorite hobby.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, to even the sides on the volleyball game I guess I'll have to join you and be onthe opposite team.
I would be willing to do this field trip (make it a We, will drag the wife).
I set real well :)
--Mark
I erred to not mention specifics:
Being that the MTA plans to scrap our beloved
BIRDS in trade for GWB-hopping R-142's...
I know there are a few, if not MILLIONS, of
REDBIRD lovers like myself who feel downed by
the BIRDS departure from service.. I propose we
get together and ride the rails, make some comments,
shoot some scenes.. and i'll bring the vid cam.
"Field Trips" get organized here by someone who realy wants to do a thing. He/she comes up with a general plan then anounces it.
One of the first was a fairwell to the Williamsburg Bridge. Our Boston friend, Todd Glickman, happened to be in town the final Friday before it was shut down for repairs. He said, why don't a bunch of us take a last ride about 6 PM ... they did. There even was a T/O who said, come ride with me about 7 PM (he was working that line).
So, get busy with your plan ;-) Word of advise, don't think you have to modify it so that everyone who has an interest can come. If the majority like your plan or you don't mind the few changes suggested, then go for it. Announce the time & date. You're sure to meet a few of us that want to tag along (I've met about 30 SubTalkers on various trips). Second word of advise, don't get discouraged if the group is small. The offer is what matters. I have had several very enjoyable evenings this way, only two of them did I have much to do with the planning/organization.
Mr t__:^)
Beware of posters trying to set up trips that post with totally phony e-mail addresses.
>Beware of posters trying to set up trips that post with
>totally phony e-mail addresses.
If you were here long enough you'd know who we all really
are and that the phony e-mail address is just a pushoff
to those who don't know "the secret"
Humour me. I've been here since day one. WHat's "the secret"?
--Mark
Dear Mr T,
It won't matter the size of the group, what matters
is the purpose and we redbird lovers in this group
know the purpose goes without saying.
Thanks, still.
Your still a phony. Give us your REAL identity and we'll believe you.
maybe on the last day it is going out. anyway, i wouldn't post up a rail fan yet. they are not leaving the 7 line.
I think they are
The R-33 singles have to be the FIRST to go.
I want to hold a rather lavish celebration when the last of them is permanently and irrevocably removed from passenger service.
>I want to hold a rather lavish celebration when the last of them is >permanently and irrevocably removed from passenger service.
You bite. Badly.
And your teeth haven't grown in yet so you need to have your food mashed?
While driving by I spotted an Ex LIRR cabin car in the NYCH yards by the float bridges. Any one have any input what it will be used for. By the way the car was heavily graffitied. P.S. The new float bridges look great.
amtrak's acela express has three purpose-built maintenance shops. locations are ivy city (DC), northampton (beantown) and sunnyside. sponsored by ny chapter of nat'l rr historical society, with further support from IEEE. YOU MUST PREREGISTER! Space is limited, and it may already be too late. cost is $20 ($15 if you are an IEEE member). contact: Peter Greco, STV inc, 225 Park Av So, 10003. tel 212.614.3357; fax 212.529.5237; email: {p.j.greco@ieee.org}
thurs feb10, 645pm. 90 min-2hr @sunnyside yard (EFG to Qns Plaza)
have fun!
Oh Eye do love this site ... so many things to do, so little time.
Thanks very much for the post !
Mr t__:^)
Half of the stations that were renovated from 1995 are still looking good except for 59th Street on the IRT 4&5. the Station looks horrible. MTA did a poor job on this station.the tiles on the walls look good but the floor has patches of cement on it, the walls have fungus growing on them, the whole structere is littered with leaks and the paint and plastering is just peeling off. 7th ave. on the BD&E is the same problem. the MTA put more effort into these stations as they did the others.
have you walked through the connection between the E/F and downtown 6 at Lex/51 somedays its like there is a burst pipe in the ceiling there is so much water pouring in. and the smell from the standing water......not plesant...
I know! it's so horrible. walking through it makes me feel like it is a sewer.
and all they do is put some orange tape to block off the area, and when is the escolater up to the 6 platform going to work again. There was a sign there saying it was out OOS till 1/31 but the sign was taken down a few days before it still sits there collecting dust..
Wall street on the 3,4 is misiing floor tiles on the platform and mezzenine. Some tile have been replaced with tiles of a differnt color. I am beginig to feel this whole tile thing on the floor was a bad idea. When wall st first reopened it was buetyful. Now it just looks loke a big waste of time and money. They would have been better off just spending money on new singleing system so that Automatic train control could be installed system wide and cut costs to the riders
Is it on the 2/3 or the 4/5 lines?
Many renovated stations have problems. The cement patches in the floor are in quite a few stations, not just 59th Street. Brooklyn Bridge has lots of water problems on the platforms when it rains. Many of the nicely redone local stations on the 1/9 below 34th Street have missing wall tiles. Fulton St on the 4/5, among others, has a hideous ceiling and some filthy exit stairwells. I wish the MTA would put effort into keeping stations nice after they've spent millions of dollars renovating them. Instead they start falling apart almost immediately after they're finished.
Nevins Street on manhattenbound platform has a virtual waterfal coming down from the ceiling. the first priority in station renovations should be repairing the station structually
OK, I know this is a major topic on this BBS and has been discussed inside and out. Every possible scenario for Manhattan Bridge operation has been gone over with a fine tooth comb. NOw I'm not the type to complain, but I really need to vent over this. I just read some of the latest postings on the MB and to think that the NOrth side of the bridge is going to be closed again is assinine! This damn project has been going on since the mid-80's! If this ever gets done, it will have been a 20 year project and its success is completely unknown! Someone in the other posts suggested the TA think long term. Why don't they? Someone must be maknig a profit off of this because the length of the project as well as the schedule is ludicrous.
All thoughts welcomed...
It's a Vietnam situation. If they had known this was going to happen, perhaps they would have decided to replace the bridge. But now they are determined to keep fixing and fixing no matter what, because of the money they've already spent. And the contractors love a steady flow of work, rather than a long term solution.
Well at least they should find a way to get the B,D,Q trains from Christie street to the south side.
Since one of the long-term problems with the Manhattan Bridge has been unbalanced usage, it would seem to make sense to shift all Brooklyn-bound service to the south side of the Bridge and all Manhattan-bound to the north side.
While the Chrystie St. section from the Bridge to Grand Street is out of service, the Brooklyn-bound track from Grand Street could be lowered (with lots and lots of waterproofing) and swung in a wide curve into what is currently the Manhattan-bound Broadway track. The current Brooklyn-bound track from Chrystie would then become the Manhattan-bound Broadway express track into Canal, crossing over the relocated track from Grand Street.
The Brooklyn end wouldn't seem too complicated to do--there are enough old tunnels Brooklyn-bound that could be used and on the Manhattan-bound side, the H track underpass could be swung rightward to connect to the current Brooklyn-bound Chrystie track.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Hey guys, POSSIBLE GOOD NEWS: Brooklyn MIGHT GET a Greyhound Bus terminal!!
I have a copy of the Downtown Brooklyn Paper and there is some serious talk of a bus terminal for Brooklyn. I haven't read the particulars, but I believe the Navy Yard is one of the proposed locations.
Doug aka BMTman
isn't there a stop on Hillside Ave in Queens?
Why would anyone want to take a Greyhound to/from the Navy Yard? "Cahn't get theah from heah," as the old Yankee used to say on the radio--even York St. Station a good quarter-mile from the nearest part of the Yard, which would be insurmountable with luggage.
There's a whole block vacant adjacent to York St., though; but if they want to capture a decent market I'd think they'd have to put it at Atlantic Terminal, where it wouldn't be very welcome.
I agree they'd have to put in at Atlantic Terminal if they are serious. If they put it in the Navy Yard, people would have to drive to take a bus. That doesn't make much sense.
I'm not sure about it being unwelcome. I assume it would be a very small facility, with just a few bays and a waiting room. There are a couple of blocks between Flatbush and Atlantic, beyond the end of the LIRR yard, that have little of note on them. These blocks are fairly isolated from residences.
Unfortunatley, I'm not sure but I believe that even a small bus terminal would require a zoning special permit. That means public hearings, environmental impact statements, the whole mess. It's sure to bring out the NIMBYs in force.
Heck I would still go to the Port Authority since I would assume local buses would stop in Brooklyn and the Express (one stop) would go out of Manhattan.
"Heck I would still go to the Port Authority since I would assume local buses would stop in Brooklyn and the Express (one
stop) would go out of Manhattan. "
That's what most Long Islander's do. The running time on the busses from Hempstead are jaw-dropping.
Chuck
;In addition to running times from the island are ridiculous. When my daughter was attending SUNY Buffalo, I looked in the Running Dog for bringing her back to LI for some holiday. One bus from Buffalo left at 8:15AM and was a direct into the Port Authority. The clerk told me that it she was reading the computer screen correctly this same equipment then went out to LI ending in Riverhead. It would arrive in Melville at 10PM. HOWEVER, if my daughter took a 9:45 AM bus from Buffalo, changed in Rochester and then changed again in Syracuse she could arrive in Melville at 9PM. Two changes are faster than a direct?? I guess the traffic management firm of Howard, Fein and Howard (a/k/a The Three Stooges) does the routing.
If this terminal comes into existence at the Navy Yard, would they add it onto the LI runs by having the buses come down the BQE. What about buses from the South, would they come over the VZ and then up thru Brooklyn? I wouldn't bet on schedules being kept.
I also think that this discussion should move over to Bus-Talk.
agreed.move the dog story to Bus Talk.
Bob----- You're not looking to start in with me again? Mack buses and Greyhound belong on SubTalk.
And yes--- I received your e-mails and I am having my lawyer, Algonquin J. Calhoun, study them to see if there is any basis for a civil suit.
OOOps!
Made a BIG mistake. The Greyhound Terminal site is planned in Fort Greene, Adelphi Street was mentioned specifically.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug--- did the article say whether they were planning a passenger terminal or a repair facility?
Since Greyhound vacated their facility which is now West Side Depot, they have no place in New York to do major repairs. They keep all their buses in two outdoor yards near the LIRR storage yards around 12th Ave and W. 29th Street. They just park them and fuel them there. They have no indoor repair facility.
Where on Adelphi Street? Adelphi is a one way street South Bound from at least Park Avenue (BQE is overhead) until it ends at Fulton St. If it is near Fulton it is still a long schlep from AT. If it is up by Park (near or in the Navy Yard) it is totally inaccesible by subway and a high crime rate area. Sounds to me like a repair facility which would make good use of the Navy Yard buildings.
Maybe if it is a repair facility in the Navy Yard, they'll open an office and have NY buses terminate at Atlantic Terminal before heading for the facility. I would be a good thing. Brooklyn has 2.5 million people, and the Port Authority is a schlepp.
The article didn't say.
However, what WAS said is that the Community Board 2 Landmarks Committee met with Congressman Ed Towns and Greyound officials recently. The Bus Terminal proposal will be on CB 2's Board meeting this coming Wednesday.
The exact location on Adelphi Street was not mentioned, but that area is part of the Fort Greene Historical District, so you can be sure that there will be NIMBY's in full force at that meeting (and I really can't blame them since Fort Greene is highly residential. There are better locations that could be chosen for a bus terminal in Brooklyn).
One underused location: the Atlantic Avenue waterfront area by Columbia/Warren Streets right near the BQE.
Of course, the Atlantic Terminal above the LIRR would be MOST desirable, but that area is already slated for use as a shopping mall.
Doug aka BMTman
(No room at Atlantic Terminal)
You could put a bus terminal there, though not one with room for extensive maintenace. Again, are they intending to provide service, or just fix buses? There are a couple of semi-abandoned blocks right next to the LIRR yard. These owners might not want to sell. Or, they could work with Forest City and put a bus terminal right in the new section of the mall, if it ever happens. You'd just need a few bus stalls on the ground floor with an exit to the outside, perhaps near the loading bays, and an office and waiting room on the inside the mall. Good place to put a coffee and bagel place next to.
[Of course, the Atlantic Terminal above the LIRR would be MOST desirable, but that area is already slated for use as a shopping
mall.]
Which, if everything goes perfectly without a hitch, should be open and ready for business in time for Christmas.
Christmas 2025, that is.
2025? I think you wrote that backwards.
There is a big difference between a bus terminal (or bus station) and a bus repair facility!
Having a bus station that is right by the BQE would avoid the need to run through local streets and presumably reduce running time for the buses, but if the station isn't accessible by subway, it's kind of pointless for most customers.
The Port Authority terminal in Manhattan is at a good location because (a) passengers can connect directly with the 8th Ave. subway and (b) buses can connect directly with the Linclon Tunnel. Most buses using the Terminal do connect with the tunnel and avoid any significant use of local Manhattan streets. The exception is buses to/from New England, which have to travel up to the Bronx on Manhattan avenues before reaching a highway; this adds significantly to the running time of those buses.
If a terminal was built in Brooklyn, I expect buses to/from New England would be the most popular. They would go north on the BQE, east on the LIE, north on the Van Wyck, over the Whitestone Bridge and onto I-95.
Folks, this is ONLY going to be a bus station (it is NOT to include a bus repair facility)
Doug aka BMTman
heypaul, the article doesn't get into the details. This Greyhound Bus Terminal business is only in the talking stages and sounds to me to ONLY be a passenger terminal. I seriously doubt that a residential neighborhood with limited space like Fort Greene is going to have the room for -- or tolerate the noise from -- a bus repair facility.
Doug aka BMTman
Hey Paul, good to see you back, did you read my e mail to you
"Slow train is coming" by Brian McGrory
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/035/metro/Slow_train_is_coming+.shtml
-- David
Chicago, IL
I love the article, written in the right nasty spirit. But the bottom line is, they stalled for a decade, and got $400 million to get out of the way. Thats' wrong. Fair compesation and reasonable accomodation should be offered up front. If it is not accepted, there should be payback. I'd plow the thing straight through.
Now that the C line gone for a while, what happened to the R110b cars that were running the line? Did they go to the E or back to the A ? where have they gone?
They're probably sitting in the yard. They're unusable on the A and E lines.
why are they unusuable on the A & E?
There aren't enough. The 6 cars could easily provide service on the lightly used C, but not on other lines. The other three cars were cannibalized to keep the first 6 running. Since it's only a limited prototype, there's little sense to spend money on new parts. Perhaps all nine cars will be restored when the R-143 comes along, but those will be incompatible (60 feet vs. 67 feet), at least in regular service.
They could always run them on the Franklin, The M or L can t they
No they can't. The morons who designed the new Franklin Shuttle left platform lengths at 170', too short for the R110B to be used.
couldn't the doors at the end be cut out[first and last cars?
Yeah, but why bother? The 2 car R68's work fine, but the station lengths limit service on this line to that only.
Saw some of them deadheading south thru Jay St last Friday about 11a.m. Most of the train was thru the station as I reached the n/b platform so I couldn't tell how long the train was. All signed up NOT IN SERVICE
The train runs in 2 3-Car units. 6 67' cars total.
The R110B can only run on the A, C or D. Only those lines have the special R110B conductors panel board.
how hard would it be to but up the panels on other lines????
How many others stations are there. Some stations you have to put up 2 more boards, and some 4 more boards are required. Anyway It would be a pain on the other lines due to only 6 cars. 402' verses 600' It's not worth it for these cars. They're probably going to the scrap heap soon. They were only buggy test units.
These cars probably won't get scrapped as long as they can keep them running using one of the 3 car sets as a supply of parts. Look for them to run on the Rockaway Shuttle in the near future.
The R-143 will be compatible (mechanically), so then it might might be more effective to buy new parts and have all 9 cars running. But unlike the R-110A, which can conceivably be made fully compatible with the R-142, the R-110Bs dimensions force them to run alone for all eternity.
The R-110Bs dimensions force them to run alone for all eternity.
Hmm.... There's an analogy there, but I won't touch it. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Angel? Isssssss That You?
What gives you the idea that the R-110B will be assigned to the Rockaway Park Shuttle?
Becuse it's the logical choice. The 2 remaining 3-car sections would do just fine running on the shuttle. It's too short for almost every other line.
My choice would be the Franklin Shuttle, but the 201' car sections wouldn't fit the 170' stations.
It's a good idea, but, I just don't think it will happen. I don't know why, but I just don't think so.
When do you think this will happen?
The LIRR intends to, or has already scrapped the C1 prototype double deckers. I assume they'll do the same to the R-110B.
BTW, Why was there no C2?
They're not gonna scrap working subway cars as long as they don't cost too much to maintain. If they can be kept in good working order without constant maintenance, then you will see them in service on the Rockaway Shuttle. Trust me.
SAW IT THIS MORNING PASSING ME(AS IT ALWYS DOES). Looks real nice and much faster then the r68. how many of the r38 is the "B" running?
I've seen only 1 set, with #4011-4012 pairing making up part of it.
It seems there is a rush to get R142 in service for the "2","5" and the "6" lines(why not the "7" is beyond me). But what about the rest of the riders on the BMT and IND? I mean, i thought the Ta was buying R143 cars. Where are those and what lines are they all going to? I once read becasue of a weight problem, R68's can't run on the "J","L",M" and "Z" lines. What type of weight problem and what lines would the new cars go to?
I'm not sure about the weight but I know that the 75' cars can't run on the J/M because they're too long
Yes, length problems make 75' car operation on the J and M line impossible, with the curve at Crescent St being too sharp to navigate safely.
but why can't the R143's be used on the A/E?
The R143 is being equipped with an automated operating system that will be installed along the Canarsie line sometime in the future, which is why these cars are headed for the L. The remaining R143 cars are heading to the M so that the M fleet will have enough new cars with transverse cabs to justify turning the M shuttle into an OPTO line.
less need I think. If anything they would run them on the C-line
All R143 cars will be put on the L and M. The entire L line will be R143 equipped, and remaining cars are tentatively destined for the M. Delivery date is unknown to me. I would think the R143 cars would be more important than the R142, because of the car shortage and the necessity of new cars to run the new 63rd. St. line through to Queens Blvd. and the upcoming Manhattan Bridge switch.
does that mean the cars on the l will go to the Q? my cr chocie is this for the lines:
A-R143
B-R68
C-R38
D-R68
E-R44/R46
F-R46
G-R46
J/Z-R40
L/M-R40
N-R40/R68
Q-R143
R-R46
Watch out...incoming bashing detected.
The L cars will probably get sent to Coney Island and be parceled out to lines as needed. I read somewhere that the R42's are destined to run on the N after the R143 fleet has been delivered.
That was when the Q was running the R-68, so the R-68s from the N would go to the Q. Now it's more likely that the trains will go directly to the Q. If the Manhattan Bridge isn't switched in 2001, then the Q will be the one with the extra service.
Since you're the Q rider, it's obvious that you want the new cars on your line. The world doesn't revolve around you. The R-143 is going to the L because the L is the best place to test the electronic signalling system.
And since nearly all of the lines you mentioned have the exact same assignments now as you want them to, why did you bother to mention it? You don't ride those lines so you obviously have no opinion on what they should have.
Don't take this insultingly, I want the R-142s on the 2, even though by that time I probably won't be riding the 2. Although I would prefer they go to the 7 even though I don't use it so those R-33 singles can die. They're hot cars, and as such, deserve to rot in hell.
"Don't tack this insultingly, but"....... Isn't that something. YOU DISS THE MAN THEN SAY dont get mad about it. some people are full of bull---- mr. PLAGUE!!!!!!!!!!
How is it insulting, I'm sure people as simplistic as you can take it that way. I was showing how he has no authority to say the new cars go to his own line as he, like any other person, wants the best for themselves.
when are the R143 to be delivered?
The R-143s were ordered a year and a half after the R-142/142As were, and the R-142/142As are just starting to come in now, so don't expect to see them for about another year and a half.
David
It's not an issue of weight, but clearance. After all, the BMT standards were heavier than any of the 75-footers, and they could and did run on the Jamaica line. Only the Triplexes could not run on the old 1885 elevated portion due to excessive weight.
the R 143 is is probably very light if u think about today's technology
Why can't the R-62s go to the 7 line?
We really need new trains.
I heard it was something to do with the side clearence in the tunnel?
Someone said that the side guard lights get in the way.
The MTA thinks in very strange ways. Since March 1999 I had been hearing that R62As were going to the 7 line. I don't know when the first date for the switch to R62s was but it kept getting pushed back I think I heard May, August, November and finally last month. Then I read in the January 10th Daily News Article about the R142s that Redbirds were going to stay on the 7.
I agree the 7 does need new cars. More than half of the 6 train's fleet is R62As and those are what I see running there except during rush hours. I've heard other posters say they have seen more Redbirds on the 6 on the weekends. But the 62As are still on the 6, and it should not get first priority for the 142s unless the MTA is going to transfer the 62As to the 7 (which I think should have recieved them in the first place because of its need for 11-car trains).
Redbirds, 62s and 142s are the same dimensions so I don't know why the R62s would have side clearance problems in the 7 line tunnels. The MTA's reasoning for deciding not to send 62As to the 7, after hearing so much about it, puzzles me. It looks like it's going to be another summer on the 7 with Redbirds. Just don't ride in the single R33 cars during the summer!
The 6 doesn't get the R142s first. The 2 gets them first, then the 5 (it might be the other way around but I doubt it). I've heard the R62s will go from the 3 and/or 6 to the 7, cars on the 1/9 may go to the 3 or 7, and the 1/9 will be the last home for the redbirds.
The 1/9 will probably not get any Redbirds. The Redbirds don't have a 9 on the rollsign and they're not going to bother replacing them for a year or two of service. The likely candidates for the Redbirds last stand seem to be the 4 and the 6. The 5 will most likely be the first as it is served directly by the East 180th Street Yard, which is where these first R-142s were sent. It also has the oldest Redbirds.
Hi folks, RE R62As on the 7: This will NEVER happen. These cars DO NOT fit they have been tested numerous times. The guard lights were ripped off many times. The only other cars I see coming here on the 7 are the R36s that the #6 line has. They will hope fully go back to where they belong home on the 7. But who knows? If they can fix the tunnels then maybe the 7 will see some R62A action. But for now forget it.
The R-62s were tested on the Flushing Line when they were new (and so were the R-62As). During that test, some of the exterior door lights were sheared off in the Steinway Tubes. It was found that the tracks were somewhat out of alignment in this extremely narrow tunnel. The roadbed was rebuilt during the 1980s, if I remember correctly, and most of the exterior door lights have been removed from the cars. R-62s (and R-62As) should have no problem operating on the Flushing Line.
However, it is unlikely that R-62s would be assigned to the Flushing Line for two reasons:
1. The cars are permanently coupled into five-car units, and the Flushing Line requires 11-car trains (there was some talk of going to 10-car trains on the line, but not lately).
2. There aren't enough R-62s (323) to provide all Flushing Line service even if the cars could run in 11-car consists. There are enough R-62As, though, so it is possible that the R-62As could be assigned there.
At this point, the car assignment for after the R-142s and R-142As arrive isn't finished, so any proposed car assignments on SubTalk are sheer speculation.
David
The R-142s will have to arrive first, as unless there are enough cars to replace the R-666/20, it won't make any sense. The R-62s on the 3 are still in singles, and the singles can remain that way, or six car sets can be made. The R-142 will be configurable into 4 and 6 car sets for the 3 and 7 respectively, in addition to the standard 5. That's why we need to wait until a sufficient number of R-142s are available.
Why does everyone seem to think that simply because certain cars that used to be single units are now 5-car sets, they can't or won't be reconfigured in the future to fit the need? The 3 has several trains of 5-car sets with 4 singles attached.
-Hank
It's unlikely that cars made into 5-car sets will be undone. NYCT is enamored of sets right now and for the foreseeable future, and restoring cars' individuality would cost money (remember that some components are removed when the cars are converted and used as replacement parts). The R-62As that are still singles are that way because the #3 line has 9-car trains and the #7 line has 11-car trains. The #3 line is scheduled to go to 10 cars when cars are available, and if the #7 line gets R-62As then some of those cars will have to either remain as singles or be put into 6-car sets (just speculating about the 6-car sets; let's not have a week's worth of postings on it, please).
David
Nothing at all stops them from making 4- 3- or 6-car sets. There's a problem with yard space at Lenox Terminal, which is why there's only 9-car trains on the 3. In fact, making some 6- and 3- car sets would solve the problems of 11 cars for the Flushing and 9 cars for the Lenox.
-Hank
There are 320 R62s currently in service - #1435, #1436 and #1439 are all crash-damaged and are awaiting disposition or repair.
Wayne
Are the Steinway tubes the problem? Is this why they can't run anything other than Redbirds on the 7?
All the current IRT cars and the R-142 have similar dimensions. I doubt that there are any problems in the tubes.
With over 1,000 R-142 and R-142As set for delivery, I wouldn't be surprised to see the 7 keep its Redbirds until the last of the R-142s arrive, which would then make up the new Flushing Line fleet. That's the way the TA did it 40 years ago, when the last series of R-33/36 cars went to the 7 after the mainline cars had arrived.
It also would give Corona and Coney Island time to retool to handle the new cars and their remove-from-the-top AC units.
But back then, the A/C on the R-33 singles was not an issue.
They may be an issue now, but unless the R-62s are shifted out to Flushing, until you see some modifications being built at Corona or CI to handle the R-142s, they're not going over to that line. And since we're talking about a good deal of time before all 1,100 R-142s are delivered, if the last 350 or so go to the 7, it would give the MTA plenty of time to modify Corona to handle the AC units.
Since Flushing tends to hold onto their trains for a long time (too long, I guess, in your opinion of the R-33s), if you believe Joe Hoffman (admittedly a stretch), then sending brand new R-142s to the 7 in 2002 means you won't have to worry about new trains on the line until 2072 at the earliest.
That's the way the TA did it 40 years ago, when the last series of R-33/36 cars went to the 7 after the mainline cars had arrived.
Historically, the Flushing Line has been blessed with new equipment. It was the first IRT line to get postwar equipment - R12, R14 and R15, despite the fact that 15% of its fleet was only 10 years old. Then along came the 1964 World's Fair and they replaced the entire fleet after only 14 years service.
Plus they had the Steinway Low Vs when service first began. Outside of a few cars moved over from the main line every now and then, Flushing has never had to deal with "hand-me-down" equipment, the way other lines have.
As crowded as it is nowadays, the MTA is probably better off making sure the No. 7 train is as reliable as possible, which is why sending the last 400 of the R-142s there would make sence, since whatever bugs they find in the Bombardiers and Kawasakis should be worked out after the first 700 are delivered.
...Flushing has never had to deal with "hand-me-down" equipment, the way other lines have.
The IRT and BMT gate cars were another story.
OK, to be more specific, the Flushing line has never had "hand me down" subway equipment. The stuff that used to come over the Queensboro from Second Ave. or was kept above ground by the BMT is another story.
I suspect the reason the #7 has always had homogeneous fleets of cars has more to do with the difficulty of moving cars to a main shop than anything else. Flushing cars have to go to Coney Island for major repairs, which requires a pair of B division "horses" since the trip cocks are on different sides on the two divisions, as well as a difficult switching move at Queens Plaza (yes, it's a straight crossover, but tower operators are apparently told NEVER to route trains that way -- we had to argue for 10 minutes before they'd let the track geometry car make that move one day, and it fits A division clearances).
Even before the Gunn years, it was beginning to be recognized that if specific fleets of cars were based at specific barns, the maintainers would become more familiar with them -- not to mention that if a car wasn't fixed right, the same guys would be repairing it again the next night. The isolation of the Flushing Line made a dedicated fleet easy, and the World's Fair gave the city an excuse to order shiny new cars.
The Steinway Lo-Vs were specially geared for the steep grades of that tunnel. I've heard that standard Lo-Vs could handle the grades as long as they were part of a solid train of motors - no trailers.
As for the R-12s, R-14s, and R-15s, the only reason they were initially assigned to the Flushing line was because their doors would not line up with the original gap fillers at Union Square, Brooklyn Bridge, and South Ferry. Had there not been any need for gap fillers on the Contract One and Contract Two routes, the car assignment pattern may have turned out very diffently.
They remove the 33s in the summer, add them back in the Fall...
They didn't remove the 33s last summer during that nasty July heatwave.
Hi Folks, (mr R142) The # 7 line ran 10 car trains in the following years: 1994-1997 & 1999 and maybe this year as well. I like the 10 car trains but I dont hate the R33 singles. I even remember when the #7 ran 8 car trains on nights/weekends. For some unknown reason the only other summers the # 7 line did not do the 10 car trains were 1990-1993 and 1998* I dont know why they didnt do 10 cars for 1998 any one out there have an answer for this? I know this because where I live the 7 line is 2 blocks from my house :) Regards. PS the 7 line is STAYING ALL Red birds. NO R142 or R62s.
Which CANNOT happen. If any Redbird is gone first, it'll be the R-33 single.
I found this site. With the discussion about the mayor and the city hall station I though this would be interesting.
http://burn.ucsd.edu/~mai/giulianism.html
Yes, more elitist college officials abusing their free university internet and e-mail accounts to launch biased and stupid opinions about people they knows nothing about. I gotta bookmark this baby.
UCSD? Don't us New Yorkers have a right to select a senator without a California University muddying up the waters. Oh, well, one of the candidates isn't even from New York, either.
Actually, I'd like to see a site about those who hate those who hate the mayor...
And I'd write one, if I had the time, or the skill.
I have both, I just don't have the content.
Want to team up?
LOL
I love the comments of these groups,usually well insulated from the consequences of their ideals by distance and money.
It`s really annoying when these groups and individuals lecture us on how off-base New york is (in their eyes).
Although I a registered Democrat,I`ve lived through the period of well-intentioned but misguided liberalism that caused decent solid middle-class neighborhoods in places like the Bronx to become drug and arson ruined hell holes.
During the 1970s I personally watched the wave of brainless arson and violence sweep slowly up from the So.Bronx toward my grandmother`s apt,in Bedford Pk.Though this area was spared from the worst,I was quite a sight to see block after block of burned buildings on the Grand Concourse.
BY the late 70s I had stopped going to the Bx Zoo by #5 train,the view was too depressing and frightening.
Mrs Clinton is typical of most liberals;looking for a house this "woman of the people" choses what? A million dollar mini mansion in a cloistered hamlet far from the consequences of her good works.
Another phony.
In Chappaqua, no less. My sister got married there. The latest I hear is that Hillary doesn't know squat about what's going on in New York (state and city).
I'm not much for Hillary either, but the Captain Jack controversy is a little unfair. Those who have actually heard the entire song, and who appreciate the early Billy Joel style (nasty sarcasm) understand that it is an anti-drug song. It portrays drug users as sexually rejected waste-of-life losers, something far scarier to an adolescent than death. But death is not neglected -- the last line is "Captain Jack can make you die tonight" instead of "high tonight."
The "Captain Jack" mess is typical of recent Republican/conservative campaigns...remember Falwell/"Teletubbies" or Quayle/"Murphy Brown?" Both men have since been decisively marginalized.
Of course, all politicians are guilty of this tactic...
Don't compare the laughable Teletubbies thing with Quayle's attack on single motherhood. Fallwell was crazy. Quayle was 100% correct in everything he said.
OK, no more off topic stuff. I made a promise. Please send all responses to the above remark to me by e-mail, not on Subtalk.
The song's real meaning is not the issue. What scares me is that someone who works for Hillary's campaign thought that song was appropriate at a press conference announcing someone's intention to seek public office. It clearly refers to drug use and even masturbation. Didn't anyone say "Hey, you can't play that. Hillary's enemies will have a field day". Even scarier is that the person who selected this song has power within Her organization.
What's next? Campaign commercials using Ozzy Osbourne's "Suicide Solution"?
Regarding the "Captain Jack' issue,In all fairness it`s quite possible that this music was selected by the sound tech and not the campaign.
I`ve worked professionaly in theatre sound and did some for the Democrats here in NYC. Often we`d be asked to "just put on some music" to liven up the crowd for the media.
Hopefully,it was just a lack of planning and not a Freudian slip.
I hope Freud didn't ever wear a slip! ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He did-his mother`s.
Saw it..not impressed, it's just the same know-nothing BS that the mayor's opponents have been spouting for years at this point. Not exactly original thinking from a group of lily-white radicals who never ventured north of 96th Street or east of the East and/or Harlem Rivers. Saw a lot of drivel about squatters, panhandlers and cabbies in re: to Hizzhonor's policies since they only affect Manhattan south of 96th Street. Nary a mention of annoyances that affect folks north of 96th Street and in the outer boros such as dilapidated schools, broken streets, litter, crime, lousy bus service etc.
A page like that speaks volumes about the Mayor's opponents than about the Mayor himself when you look at it.
Let's see if there's a page for Hillary haters. Or Democrat haters. Just remember, when Rudy G. gets elected senator, we get that jellyfish Mark Green to finish out his mayoral term. Just the thought makes me want to shudder. Now enough of this, lets get back to subway and transit topics.
A few weeks ago, I posted in here a remark about the infamous old map still visable in the 57th/6th station mezzanine. I stated that it had both the KK line to Eastern Pkwy and the Culver shuttle. Someone in here said that neither line was shown on this map. When I stated otherwise, this person (whose identity I forgot) told me I was crazy.
I'm happy to report that I viewed the map again yesterday and it did indeed have both of those lines on it, and it was dated 1974. Just thought I'd crow a bit.
That was me. You only got it half right. I said that neither of the lines are there and it's dated 1976, you then said I was wrong. That part so far is correct. Now, the difference is that as soon as you said I was wrong, I stopped the discussion and believed you, I never called you crazy. Unless someone else did.
BTW, where is the map? maybe there are two. After going into the Fare paid area nearest 57th, there is a map posted on the plexiglass wall facing AWAY from the fare area, and the old map I saw is on the back facing in. It's blocked by a few bars of some sort (I don't exactly remember why), but still perfectly visible. It also faces an old style phone booth, you know the type with the door that's still in some places on West End Avenue?
The map I saw was facing IN behind a plexiglass wall. The only way to see it is to descend down the platform steps. There are 2 offset stairwells, the closer being to the left. If you keep going, another stairwell to your right exists. It is behind the plexiglass barrier that the map in question resides.
I spent about 5 minutes staring at it. I'd have stayed longer, but I didn't want people to think I was some sort of moron mesmerizied by brightly colored maps.
Is there a phone booth there?
02/05/2000
Gee, do you think it's time to update that map after 26 years? I mean (J) trains don't run to Jamaica-168th St, Dean St. on the Franklin shuttle is closed and guess what? a new subway opened to Jamaica Center!
Before City Hall and the surrounding areas were rebuilt, there was an imformation kiosk on Broadway near the (N)(R) entrance that up until a couple of years ago had a subway map with the JFK Express on it !
Bill Newkirk
Before the complex was rehabbed a few years ago, there was a map on the Canarsie bound platform at Lorimer St. from 1980, showing both the old double letters and M service on the Brighton line. It was in great condition, and it could be mistaken easily for a modern one.
I wonder how liable the TA might be if they are displaying maps with services that do not exist, at least not anymore.
Anyhow, I'm a big fan of the 'Massimo' maps (as I call them). I wish that style was still kept, no matter how geographically incorrect they may have been.
02/05/2000
Nice stories of forgotten maps, new ideas for Kevin Walsh! Any maps around with the Myrtle Ave. "el" on it? If so, somebody reading it will run out of Jay St./Boro Hall to the center of Metrotech and scream....OH HELL, WHERE'
>>>Nice stories of forgotten maps, new ideas for Kevin Walsh! Any maps around with the Myrtle Ave.
"el" on it? <<<
About a year ago I was shown an online map showing where the new Marriott Hotel in Brooklyn is...and believe it...or not it showed the Myrtle Avenue EL! I'm not kidding.
Caveat emptor...many of these CD ROM and online maps use base maps from decades and decades ago...meaning they show streets and landmarks that were there decades ago.
Caveat emptor again...buy Hagstrom while you still can. Their gorgeous hand drawn maps will be replaced this decade by cheaper digital maps.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yes these online maps can be very bad. I recently saw one that featured the mid-Manhattan and Lower Manhattan expressways, which of course were purposed by Robert Moses but were never (thankfully)
built.
02/05/2000
Nice stories of forgotten maps, new ideas for Kevin Walsh! Any maps around with the Myrtle Ave. "el" on it? If so, somebody reading it will run out of Jay St./Boro Hall to the center of Metrotech and scream....OH HELL, WHERE'S THE "EL"!!!
Bill Newkirk
That station should be renamed Jay Street-Metrotech (especially since they want to connect it to Lawrence), it's not near Borough Hall!
I agree. I dont know why they call it Boro Hall. Borough Hall is about a good 3 blocks from there.........
3TM
Back in the mid-1970s, there was a vintage 1948 subway map posted along the overpass at the Coney Island station. Since it was right next to the crew room, I doubt it was overlooked, and some people just wanted to keep a little bit of past history around. The map at 57th and 7th may be the same thing, at least until someone from Jay Street with a stick up his can sees the map and orders it removed.
There's a circa 1981 MTA commuter rail map in the waiting area of the Patchogue LIRR station. I didn't realize it was such an old map at first. But then I started noticing long-vanished stations such as Republic and Cutchogue, and looked for the copyright date.
Hey Peter, what does that map show for the Port Jervis Line? Does it show it at all? I believe Conrail was still the technical 'operator' of the line back then....
Attention all subtalkers...
I dunno when I'll be able to make my way over to 6th and 57th...
so can any of you take a snapshot of that map and possibly a closeup of a long-outdated detail, like the KK, to be used on...
www.forgotten-ny.com
You will be made world famous with a credit.
BTW is this the highly stylized design that turned off a lot of people, that was used in the 60s and 70s, or the more readable design used since then?
www.forgotten-ny.com
This was the "rainbow" map style used from 1967-78. Each line had it's own color and the map looked like something Picasso painted, then threw away.
I, however, loved the design.
02/05/2000
Chris R,
I think you erred! That "Picasso" map you described first showed up in 1972. There was a 1967 map with the TA logo on it and a 1969 map with the M logo on it too. Those two maps were one of my favorites since it was so simple to read. That Picasso map deserved to be hanging in the Metropolitan Museum of Modern Art and not every subway station and subway car!
The idea of a simpler map was caused by the Picasso Map and brought forth a map with trunk lines with their own colors. Hence a simpler map that was also fairly geograhically correct. The newest map with SIRwy on it is a little off because of the addition of Staten Island.
Bill Newkirk
The 70s map got a lot of critcism because they went for style over substance -- some stations that were a block apart were shown as much further away, and if I remember right, one station (I forget which) in Manhattan was about a quarter mile off its actual location.
Just remebered. The original Picasso Map had the Broadway and 50th Street stop on the 1 west of the Eighth Ave. and 50th St. stop on the AA/CC/E.
But it looked great on T-shirts.
Who "chose" which color would be assigned to which line? Considering that the colors were assigned to each route first on the 1967 map, I'm thinking that whoever did it was dropping some serious acid. That map must blow your mind when your tripping.
1967 was the Summer of Love.
i can just imagine the new map planners, sitting at desks, Jefferson Airplane blasting on the 8-track, trying to decide which "colors" would look groovy.
"Cool, dude, I like that pink color. Draw the AA with that far out color. Anyone got some more acid?"
I thought that was 1969.
That was the year of Woodstock, man walking on the moon, and the Mets winning it all. 1967 was, in fact, the summer of love, originating in San Francisco. Flower children, the whole bit...
That explains why the post Chrystie street service plan was a bit, well, crazy. Too much acid going around TA headquarters back then, I guess.
I just took a look at the map. It is in horrible condition. Most of Manhattan and the Rockaway section is torn off and there is gum on it. Why don't they enclose it in a glass case?
As I remember, they corrected the alignment of the two West 50th Street stations after numerous complaints, showing their correct locations with the '1' stop being east of the one for the 'AA', 'CC' and 'E'.
I loved how there was no attempt to conform to scale whatsoever. The distance between Bowling Green and the defunct South Ferry station looked about the same as the length of Central Park.
Inconsequential to casual riders, but the 'F' appeared to cross the Manhattan Bridge along with the 'B','D','N' and 'QB'.
Today's map does a decent job depicting the city outside of the subway system. I especially like how neighborhood names, such as Tribeca, Chinatown and Upper East Side are shown.
How about that gigantic detour the Franklin Shuttle took to get from Botanic Garden to Prospect Pk? Or that the B, D, N, QB AND F trains all crossed the Manhattan bridge? and that mysterious turn in the Nassau St line between Essex and the Bowery? For some reason, the TA spent millions to relocate it to north of Canal ...
It's sure pretty, but it's an awful map.
The controversial "Picasso" map was designed by one Massimo Vignelli.
The original "NYC Access" book contained an update of the map by Vignelli, along with his comments:
"Originally the design of the New York subway map was part of a comprehensive project that included graphic standards for the entire subway system. Three maps were designed: one abstract, for the entire system; one geographical, which showed the actual position of the stations in the context of the area; and one which explained how to get there verbally...
...of this original information network, only the abstract system map was issued for use...although praised for its elegance and design, the map's distortions proved to be difficult for users to understand."
Vignelli goes on to trash the map currently in use:
"With the water in blue and the parks in green, the present map may be clearer in some instances, but in toto, it is a disappointing solution. The overall design is unclear and messy, which is unfortunate, since cartography has advanced to a much finer stage than the map would imply. This solution attempts to interface under and above-ground references with the result not satisfying either."
Well, I don't know much about art, but I know what I like...
I gotta see one of these things in position. I've seen it in the Transit Museum. I'll be shooting some Forgotten scenes in Brooklyn tomorrow but I just may get up to 57th and 6th to take a look at it.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Except for the new map, and the line-color reorganization resulting from it, every aspect of the 1967 Vignelli graphics program is still in use by the MTA: the colored bullets with numbers/letters that represent each line; the notation at each station on the map of which lines stop there; the use of color to distinguish between routes, not the operating divisions made obsolete by Chrystie St.; the simple white Helvetica lettering on black that made signage consistent throughout the system, providing a visual unity to what had been an intimidating hodgepodge of information presented in three ways by three different companies providing the same service.
The t-shirts, hats, etc., at the Transit Museum and Canal Jean, and that big "A Y F I ?" campaign of Reebok's, are all cashing in on a graphics program that is still stylish after thirty years. I hope Vignelli's getting a cut.
When you get back from 57th St., compare that map to the 1966 map on this site (http://www.nycsubway.org/histmaps/1966_a.gif) and decide for yourself which has more relation to the subway as we know it--aside from the representation of the Broadway line as a series of 90-degree turns, which was unbelievably goofy.:)
I have a 1958 map, and it is quite distorted. It shows the Queens Blvd. line as a complete straight line all the way to 179th. It shows the J as a straight line all the way from Eastern Pkwy to 168th. The West End line is shown in perpendicular lines making 90' turns at 9th Ave and 18th Ave. And the entire A line is a straight line from 14th St to 207th. It does however do a better job of showing the true dimensions of the Broadway line. The "Picasso" map shows the Broadway line in such a way that it appears to run to 34th St. and 5th Ave, turns 90' onto 34th , then back uptown at 7th Ave to Times Sq.
The TA got away from the visually accurate maps back in the 1950s. If you can find a map from the post-unification period (or go look at the wall of most Subway sandwich shops), it gave a much more accurate representation of where stations were in relation to the rest of the streets and points of interest in the city. The main objection to the maps the TA and MTA came up with later, especially the 1970s version was people who need a subway map probably are people who also need help in directions once they get outside the subway. A map that shows the Bowling Green station about where Wall Street belongs definitely is one that needed a major overhaul.
Yes, Bowling Green appeared to be about a mile from South Ferry when in fact it's just up the block. Hagstrom's put out a post-Chrystie St. map which is what is displayed at Subway restaurants. I remember seeing it being sold at the Port Authority Bus Terminal, but never bought it.
By today’s standards that’s ancient; but I must go there to see exactly what type of Pantone PMS colors they exactly used for each line so I’m totally sure (I am a printing buff). I figured that they must’ve used PMS 116 for the #6 and N lines, PMS 165 for the #1, #7, D and EE lines, PMS 185 for the #2 and QB lines, PMS 306 for the #3, E and M lines, PMS 347 (or 354) for the SS, CC, GG and RR lines; I’m grasping at straws regarding the #4, AA and F lines (PMS 239?), the #5, B, J and LL lines (probably PMS 407, but on the maps definitely PMS Process Black) and the A and KK (K) lines (PMS 285? 293?)
By the way, if you travel along the stations of the 63rd Street extension, you will find that not only the maps but also the ads haven’t been changed since the early-to-mid-’90’s.
The newest line in the subway is now the most retro.
Knowing that, I will steal these old maps and ads, and put them in my Acitu Euneva Yawbus. The Bus will run until my workthingies finish the Utica Avenue line, which I expect to be around 1740. I just have to make sure His Royal Majesty doesn't find out about it first.
Talking about out of date subway maps once in a blue moon (when my '85 Buick breaks down) I take the train to work. I get off at Gates Av on the "J". Since I rarely use the train during rush hours even when I do take the train I never bothered finding out if the "J" or the "Z" stops there even though I knew about skip/stop. Well one time I had to use it at rush hour. I walked to Bway Junction from the LIRR and on the el mezzanine (between the Jamaica & Canarsie Els) there was a map. I looked at it and it stated skip/stop was only from Jamaica to Bway Junction, with no skip/stop W/O it. Luckily I got on a "Z" and was surprised when it skipped Chauncey. I wasn't sure if it would stop at Gates until it got there.
As promised, I checked out the area at the 57th Street/6th Avenue mezzanine, and found the map in question to be pretty well-preserved, considering some tears around some areas. The inks appear to have held up rather well and show no signs of fading. I have also confirmed that the map was printed on uncoated paper stock (as opposed to today’s maps which are printed on coated paper). With 20- and 30-year-old Pantone Color Selector swatches as my guides (after all, this map is 26 years old), I have determined the eight colors used for individual routes to have been:
For the #6 and N lines - PMS 116U
For the #1, #7, D and EE lines - PMS 165U
For the #2 and QB lines - PMS 185U
For the #4, AA and F lines - PMS 239U
For the A and K (ex KK) lines - PMS 300U
For the #3, E and M lines - PMS 306U
For the CC, GG, RR and SS lines - PMS 354U
For the #5, B, J and LL lines - PMS Process Black U
Frankly, I preferred these colors on the lines in question to the ones they adopted beginning in 1979. At least there is one place in the system where you can go down Memory Lane in that sense and remember when. . . .
I also noticed that with respect to the yellow (PMS 116U) ink, they appear to have overprinted. . . .
By the way, when did the 57/6th station open?
It, and the express tracks from 34th to West 4th Street, as well as the short-lived connection from Broadway-Lafayette Street to Essex Street of the Nassau Street/Broadway-Brooklyn line, opened July 1, 1968. This was the last leg of the Chrystie Street project, the first fruits of which were the connection between Sixth Avenue and the Manhattan Bridge which opened Nov. 26, 1967 and ushered in the era of “routes of many colors”.
The 6th Ave. express tracks opened at the same time as the first leg of the Chrystie St. connection - November 26, 1967. Between then and July 1, 1968, they were used only during rush hours by B and D trains. Because the 57th St. station wasn't quite ready yet, B trains terminated at W. 4th St. during non-rush hours when they did operate (B service didn't operate during late nights or Sundays until July 1), and D trains shared the local tracks with the F between W. 4th and 34th Sts. On July 1, B trains began running 24/7 (express via 6th Ave. during rush hours only) and D trains began running express along 6th Ave 24/7.
7/1/68
Will the R-110A ever be put into service?It has been parked in the 239th street yard for a while.What line will get the R-142's first the 2 or the 5?
Although the car assignment hasn't come out yet, it's likely that the #5 line will get R-142s before the #2 line, since the E. 180th Street Shop was recently replaced with a new shop designed to handle the cars (the cars have roof-mounted unitized air conditioning units, necessitating that the maintenance shop have a high roof). The R-142As appear slated to be the ones to go to the #6 line.
David
Another reason to support the idea that the R142's will go to the #5 first is because that line now has the oldest redbirds (R26/28 and 29) in the fleet. Someone mentioned a while back that the R29 fleet is in such a poor state due to rust that they will have to be retired within the next 2 years out of safety concerns.
What are you going to do with the R29s that are on the #6? Exactly how many R29 cars are on the #6 currently?
According to Dec 99 New York Division ERA Bulletin, as of Oct 3 1999, there were 100 R-29's assigned to the #5 and another 100 R-29's assigned to #6.
Actually, there are 118 GE R-29s, assigned to E. 180th Street for #5 service, and 118 WH R-29s, assigned to Pelham for #6 service. The 100 cars of each cited in the NYD Bulletin are the service requirements; the other 18 of each are spares/long-term holds.
David
02/05/2000
The TA can always shift equipment around. If the record of the R-29's are worse than the R-33's and Mailine R-36's, the R-26,28 & 29's will go first. If Redbirds must remain somewhere, they can always shift them around.
BTW - Has anybody noticed how horendous some of the Redbirds look lately? I mean the silver paint on the roofs are fading away and the WHITE paint is showing through. Looks like the Redbirds have a bad case of receding hairline!!
Bill Newkirk
The interlocking signals on the Broad Street line are very interesting. On the express tracks, the signal for a straight route is red over yellow, red over green, yellow or green (single colors are usually used on little used crossovers, on such crossovers red over red means stop). Hence, a diverging track would be yellow over red or green over red.
Yet on the local tracks, a straight track is yellow over red or green over red, (or again, just yellow or just green). And red over yellow or red over green is diverging track.
The only other explanation that I can think up for this is that the top set is left, and the bottom set is right. That would work since most crossovers go that way, except for a couple on the express. Is this really in fact how it works?
Dave Pirmann has reorganized the nycsubway.org web site. I like the way he has done it -- he has organized the material by division (BMT,IRT,IND) MUCH MORE LOGICAL, Good work, Dave!!
Looks great. Placing all the division in order makes it easier to view a particular division. Great job Dave.
Geez, and I didn't even get to announce it here yet. :-) Thanks, glad you like it so far...
Well anyway. If you haven't seen it take a look at the main page
www.nycsubway.org and browse. I'm not done yet but the major stuff is done.
-Dave
Ahh, I see you've been busy. Yes, it looks good. I like the "3-pic" picture used to represent the divisions.
I also saw in the BMT section that it "will have a capsule history of the BMT" there soon.
Looks like I gotta get busy :) :)
--Mark
Hi, I just wonder how many of you are from NYC?
How many of you are form out of town?
I'm from NYC (actually, Lawn Guyland).
But I live in Boston, and commute to NYC one weekend/month to work. Such a deal!
I am a lifelong Syracusan.
Brooklyn,ny (Brighton Breach)
Hey, me, too ... although I don't live there now.
I used to live at 3130 Brighton 6th St.
--Mark
Bedford Park, Bronx. Great Place to live when you got 2 subway lines within 3 blocks of each other.
Bedford Park 'da Bronx here, also.
Peace,
Andee
My neighborhood too. For the last 12 years. Born in the Bronx, raised there, and STILL there after all these years.
Hey guys we should call ourselves the BP CREW
Peace,
Andee
I was born on the Upper West side, 114th & Amsterdam (near Tom's Restaurant,) but I now live in Jackson Heights, Queens, near the 74th street station on the 7, and the Roosevelt Ave station on the E,F,G, & R trains.
"Broadway Jorge" Catayi
I <3 N.Y.
Baltimore, MD - home of the w-i-d-e-s-t streetcar gauge in America!!!
I was born in Cincinnati, lived in North Carolina, Florida, South Carolina and Florida again before moving to the far north suburbs of Chicago in 1993. (Can anybody tell I grew up a military brat?) I moved into the city itself in 1996 and have been living here ever since. I've never lived in NYC, but I've visited a few times and have a couple of close friends who live there, so I've developed a rather close connection to the city over the past couple years. This coming June I plan on moving to Boston to transfer to a school there, and when I'm done with school in Boston I may come back to Chicago or I may decide that my future is in New York City.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'm from Brooklyn, NY. From about the age of 5 (in 1960) on I lived in Sheepshead Bay two blocks from The Brighton Line. In 1978 work took me to Florida (blech). Been living there ever since but my heart is always in NY. I get to go back home a couple of weeks a year. Back to my old room too.
Alan Glick
I WAS BORN IN NYC NY NY AT A RAILFAN-WINDOW R -1 100 !!!
NOVEMBER 3 1951 HARLEM NY ( TAKE THE A TRAIN ALL THE WAY TO FAR ROCKWAY )
OY VEY!!!!!!!
oy vey ?? WHAT !!!!!!!!! ???????
02/05/2000
"oy vey??? WHAT!!!!!????"
OY vey railfans windows!, that's what!... or watt??
Bill Newkirk
Goyisha cup. I was born and raised in Brooklyn on Kings Highway(the only city street in NYC named Highway) and East 23, lived in LA and now Hawaii, but soon Virginia, but I am a BROOKLYNER(You can get that T shirt at the Brooklyn Brewery in Greenpoint which says in German YO! ICH BIN EIN BROOKLYNEER. see also their web site My brother, niece and nephew live in the Metro Area, so i go back often
....the only city street in NYC named Highway
I'm sure that those living along Edward L. Grant Highway in the Bronx will take notice to that.
How about the West Side Hway. Its not elevated any more below 59th street. It has intersections with traffic lights.
What was the Grant Highway before they changed its name, and the West Side Hwy isn't in actually West Sts and 12th Aves for addresses. Kings Hwy has been the same name for over 250 years now. Ask George Washington
If you go back that far enough, there were other roads called highways.
Not officially
Not officially, Kings Highway never had a name changeon 250 years.
The Edward L. Grant Highway was called Boscobel Avenue.
Peace,
Andee
So that is a new name, for the street. doesn t count. Kings Hwy was the original name.
The name was changed 40 - 45 years ago hardly making it new. And your original statement was that >>>Kings Highway was the only Street in NYC named highway<<< you did not qualify as to original name etc,
Peace,
Andee
Considering the settlement of new york is over 370 years old, 40 years is new
Mr. #1Brighton Exp Bob is correct, and I cannot tell a lie.
I would also like to thank New York and New Jersey for naming the bridge linking the two in my name back in 1931.
George W.
Hey George, what town are your orchards(Apple and Peach) in Virgina, if you get this wright you are the re-incarnation of GW
Oy Vey is right!
I was born and raised in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn.- right in between my two favorite BMT lines. Bay Parkway on the Sea Beach (N) and Avenue P on the Culver (F) I don't think I can ever call anywhere else home. Brooklyn is the world!!!!!!!!
I agree Mark. I live on the border of Brooklyn and Queens in a section known as Greenpoint. ( The Garden Spot ) I lucky to have the Brooklyn-Queens Crosstown local (G) by me. Well, maybe not so lucky, but the 7 train is not far.
02/05/2000
I was born in Brooklyn, NY 48 years ago in Peck Memorial hospital in Crown Heights. My first few years was spent living with family in an apartment on Park Avenue (Brooklyn) and Skillman Street, a block away from the Myrtle Avenue "el".
From there we moved to 1420 Eastern Parkway between Howard and Pitkin Avenues. That's where I had my very first taste of subways near the Liviona Avenue (New Lots) line.
In July of 1957 we moved to Ocean and Newkirk Avenues in Flatbush, where the stage was set for my formative years to be immersed into AB & D types, R-27/30'3 and 32's, the best years of my life.
I live in south shore Nassau County and still visit the old neighborhood occasionally. Till this day, I still get my haircut at the barborshop in Newkirk Plaza!
Bill Newkirk
Hey Bill, I was born in Peck Memorial Hospital too, but quite a number of years before you. I grew up in the shadow of the BMT Jamaica el as it traveled up Crescent St. We called the area Cypress Hills, and yes, it really was part of Brooklyn. I left the city the same year that you moved to Flatbush, and call historic Gettysburg home now. My last visit to the city was 18 years ago, and unfortunately, it was by car. I still miss those els and subways 43 years later.
02/05/2000
Thanks Karl, I thought I was the only baby born at Peck Memorial! I understand that the building is still there, but supposedly is a Glatt Kosher hotel. Any confirmation on this?
Bill Newkirk
I've been gone too long, and no one in my family is left in the city to confirm or deny if the hospital is gone or not,. I often wondered why I wasn't born at Lutheran Hospital, which seemed to be the hospital for our residential area at that time. I should have asked my parents but it is too late now. Lutheran Hospital was fairly close to the Atlantic Ave station on the Canarsie Line wasn't it?
Hey Karl & Bill---- Tell me where Peck Memorial was and I'll take a look for it. Don't tell me that when you were born, you were too young to know where it was!!
I was born in the Swedish Hospital at the corner of Bedford Ave. and Dean St. in 1949. But don't go looking for it now, heypaul - it hasn't been there for about 25 years!
If the hospital where I was born wasn't around 25 years, I'd be in BIG trouble.
BTW, I was born in Brookdale.
I share a birthday with Pablo Picasso, Johann Strauss, Robert E. Byrd, Floyd Bennett (of field fame) and John Dodge (or car fame).
Big Deal:::so does 1 out of every 365 1/4 people about
I wasn't saying that my birthday is an important day, I was only naming those people who I share it with. Everybody shares their birthday with famous people.
What the **** is your problem?
You have to learn that there is a lot of good natured teasing on this site, Happy Birthday and many more.
If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. I think Humans-Amsterdam will catch on pretty fast. I sure as hell did.
Well Mr. Humans, I was born on October 27. That was the day when the New York Subway System was launched. I was born in 1940; the system was launched in 1904. So there. Also Teddy Roosevelt was born on October 27, and he's one of the four greatest presidents of all time.
And he was president when the IRT first opened.
Steve B-8AVEXP, you're a gentleman and a scholar. What about your Rockies? Are they going to make a move this season?
No Polictics Fred:
I was born on March 12th. The area code of the Chicago Loop is 312. Coincidence? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
That makes you a prototype of the man from the city of big shoulders. In other words, you can be called Mr. Chi. And don't let them change the area code or all bets are off.
My birthday is October 27th also.
Peace,
Andee
Subwaysurf: You just made a friend. In fact, are you aware that October 27 is Navy Day. When the Navy had a separate department in the US Government, they had a big celebration every October 27. There are no such big celebs today, but it is still called Navy Day.
I did not know that
Yes, Lutheran Hospital was on East NY bet Junius & Powell if I'm not mistaken. By the way, if you really miss the subways & els so much why don't you take a ride over. Gettysburgh isn't too far from NY, probably a 3 hr drive.
Sarge, I'd really like to, but I would have no place to go when I got there. All of my family is gone.
Incidentally, when I was a lot younger, my very best time between here and New York was 4 & 3/4 hours. I'm not sure that I am up to a trip like that anymore.
Nowhere to go? There are so many places and things to see in New York! People come from all over the world to visit. Do you think that they all have relatives that they are coming to visit?
I actually prefer to visit cities where I know nöone. No having to waste your time visiting their house in the middle of nowhere, no trying to dissuade them from convincing you to stay in their house, requiring a two hour commute to the very city you want to visit and sleeping on their ridiculously uncomfortable couch when you could instead use the plush facilities of a medium-priced hotel anywhere from zero to fifteen minutes from all the action.
Similarly, if any person I know would visit New York, I would be elated if they would elect to stay in a hotel. No having to prepare sleeping accomodations for them, no having to cook meals for them, and no transporting them. I would only meet them downtown to give them the tour.
I apologize for diverting the topic.
I'm from NYC (well, actually Westchester with a bit of Bensonhurst, Brooklyn). Anyone here from Westchester?
I was born at Mt. Sinai hospital. My family lived in St. Albans until I was three and then moved in 1958 to South Huntington.
These days, I live in Putnam County - just above the Westchester line where it's still possible to find a farm or two.
I know how you feel, I still have family in Westchester, Hotels in NY are very expensive, even the Ys are around 70 a night with bath down the hall. But you could always take the train from Harrisburg, and get a hotel in Newark, and take the Path In. The Hotels there are cheaper then in the city
Karl: I was in Gettysburg in August of 1998. Great town. Saw all the sites of the Civil War Battle, and even re-enacted Pickett's Charge. I'm an unreconstructed Yankee and my favorite general is William T. Sherman. I hope to visit the city again very soon. They also have some great restaurants in the town.
My high school band toured Gettysburg in May of 1972. It was an exchange deal with the Gettysburg HS band. We also saw the battleground, as well as Lincoln's itinerary when he gave the Gettysburg Address. Every building that was standing at the time of the Civil War has a commemorative plaque, IIRC.
Steve B, You should have looked me up! I was here. I've been here since 1957, first as a student, and then as a resident. There is a lot of history in this little town, and it is a nice place to live. I wlll always think of Brooklyn as my home though, because that is where I spent the first 20+ years of my life.
I was in Gettysburg last year around this time. I have family in a small town called Berryville Virginia, which is 60 miles west of Dullas Airport, and 10 miles east of Winchester. Found Gettysburg beautiful and very interesting, but I could not find a Gettysburg magnic anywhere. I hope to be moving to Berryville within 2 years, settle on a small farm and raise Golden Retrievers, but that is a dream. Only if I can convience my spouce, who never been in snow or cold weather.
Brighton Exp Bob, We have been through your section of Virginia several times, and it is beautiful country. We have had 27 inches of snow here in the last three weeks. I'm not sure how much of that Berryville got, but that would be some introduction to snow for your spouse, if you had that the first winter you moved to this area.
The choice of magnets is endless if you are talking about the type to put on the refrigerator, You just have to get into the right gift shop.
Karl, you are right about the type of Magnets, I went thru the middle of the week in Feb and only 3-4 shops were open, and non had a magnet, not even the shop at the Museum. When we move back there, I will get one then.
#1Brighton Express Bob: Raise Golden Retrievers? Now I know you're my pal. I have a goldie, she is going to be 14 on March 17 and her name is Daphne. She's my babe and I love her to death. Goldens are the greatest dogs in the world, and I will always have one, that I've promised myself.
I have 2 mixed Goldens,one we got from the pound at 5 months. Her name is Goldie and she just turned 5. The other is a mixed Golden, Lab and terrier, found him lost at about 6 weeks almost fell into sewer. Put ads up and nobody claimed him, He is named Yogi because he looked like Yogi Bear as a puppy(still does) he is 3 1/2 they are great. They love to take a ride. They miss my truck though
I AM BORN IN NYC ( right at the railfan window ) 11 03 51 AND PROUD OF IT MAN !!!!!
Come on, Mr. Willie. New York City is a big place; what part of New York City are you originally from and what was your favorite train?
Watch it Fred, Mr Willie lives near you in Pasadena, and it you don t behave I will give him your address and phone number.
Bob: You wouldn't! You can't be that cruel.
Yup, If I hear one more Political BS from you I will. Apr 29, can t make it, 2 weeks later I might have.
Well, that was back in 1972. I was a high school freshman at the time. The Gettysburg HS band visited us in March and spent a day in NYC. I remember getting nailed for skipping a class to attend both assemblies in which they performed.
Steve B, It's funny story time. In the spring of 1958 I was completing my freshman year here at the college. I was walking around the square here in Gettysburg, when I noticed three charter buses parked in front of the hotel. They were parked nose in and I noticed each bus had a small placard in the windshield with the words "Chartered by Franklin K Lane High School Brooklyn NY"....My alma mater! They didn't have Senior Trips, when I was a student there 5 years earlier. I was really shocked! I loitered in the area until they finished lunch and came out of the hotel. I saw a teacher-chaperone that I remembered and identified myself to her. She insisted on loading all of the buses, and then having me speak to the Seniors in each bus about my four years of work experience after high school, and how I then decided to go after a college education. I was surprised at the number of questions that the Seniors asked me in each bus. I guess that you could say I had my day in the limelight, but I doubt if I endeared myelf to Lane's Class of 58. It sure was one of those "small world" experiences for me to run into 120 people from my old home town way down here.
Interesting story indeed. The other significant part of my high school trip in 1972 is the fact that it was the last time I rode on the PA Turnpike. I'd love to go back someday and explore the abandoned tunnels, but that's another topic for another time.
Sea Beach Fred, I decided on John Buford as my choice of the generals, but that was only after I saw the movie "Gettysburg". There is a lot to see here, the place is just crawling with history.
I hope that the Shoneys Restaurant was not one of your favorites when you were here last. It closed up suddenly about a year ago, and nothing has replaced it yet.
02/05/2000
I don't know heypaul! All I know is that it's somewhere in Crown Heights. If I hear anything, I'll e-mail you.
Bill Newkirk
Hey guys--- I just looked it up in my 1962 Little Red Book Street Guide to Brooklyn---- Peck Memorial was on Crown and Albany... ( If I am not mistaken, there is a Lionel Train repair shop at the location now---- Just an inside joke with my friend in Gettysburg ) I will try to take a look in the area sometime.
Do you mean to say that the Carson C Peck Memorial Hospital was closed and he opened the Carson C Peck Lionel Train Repair Shop?
Heypaul, Check that good little book you have for the Lutheran Hospital, was it on Junius St?
After your mentioning the name of that place near Buffalo, I'm not sure I should answer your question about Lutheran.
According to the Red Book, Lutheran was located on East New York Ave. and Floogle Street, about half a block from the Susquehanna Hat Company.
You're right--- It was Junius Street.
Thank You! I knew that you would be able to tell me.
Sometime (perhaps by Email), you will have to tell me why that place west of Lockport offends you so much! After all, I'm not the one with the key to the food locker. :-)
"Floogle Street"!!!!!!!!!!
Was any one beside my cousins, myself and Joe Torre of the Yanks born at the Madison Park Hospital on Kings Hwy and East 26. The building is still there, but I understand it is a convelescent Hospital.???
It's called the New York Community Hospital. It's a normal hospital.
Gee, talking about hospitals, I was born (in '53) at Nassau Hospital (now Winthrop University Hosp) right next door to Mineola Station. Maybe thats why I'm such a train buff. I probably heard all the whistles, and even though I don't remember, I think in '53 there was still steam going through there!!!
Yeh Sarge Steam lasted on the LIRR thru 55 and 56
Yeah, but somehow I don't really recall 'em from the hospital nursery.
....From there we moved to 1420 Eastern Parkway
That is so COOL! I also lived at 1420 from 1982 to 1987, although it was on the other Olmsted and Vaux parkway (Ocean).
Now that I've entered the thread, you all know I'm from Brooklyn, not Delhi, Bombay, Budapest, Prague or The Hague.
Are you using those European Capitols as a fantasy Eurail Train ride someday?
No, it's a smooth transition from Humans, The Deli Best.
Paul: You ever heard of PS1 in Queens. Right near the Brooklyn border? I used to go to school there.
Well Mark W, what are you a milktoast? If you like the Sea Beach so much, let's get involved when Brighton Express Bob starts his usual bagging of my favorite subway line. If you're a Sea Beach man, there is no sitting on the sidelines. Maybe you could incorporate some of the line in a new knickname that shows your part in the train, like N Train Mark , or something. Get involved.
Originally from NYC but now in southern California.
Come on, Steve. The Empire State Bldg is from NYC. You were from Da Bronx!!!! Say it loud!
Steve: Southern California is a big place. Where in So Cal? I happen to live in Arcadia, a great community.
Bay Ridge, currently exiled in Flushing, till I find out where my next job is.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I spent the first 18 years of my life as a resident of Brooklyn, about 150 feet from the eastern transition of the LIRR Atlantic line transitions from Subway to El at Dewey Place. And, within 300 yards of both the Fulton Street Subway stations at Ralph and Rockaway Avenues. I started my solo railfanning at age 10 which then included my much-loved Myrtle Ave El. I had covered the entire system that existed then by my first year of high school in 1967.
I have lived a variety of places, right now Okemos (near East Lansing and MSU) Michigan. But I have been to Brooklyn every year of my life at least 10 occasions each time to visit home. So in some ways NYC is still where my heart is.
I live in Brooklyn, but I grew up in Yonkers, just across the city line. I also spent a couple of years in Tulsa, OK, after unemployment in the 1970s recession chased my family out of the Northeast.
I noticed a couple of posts by people who say they are FROM NYC but now live elsewhere. I guess you need four categories.
1) From NYC and live here.
2) From NYC and live elsewhere.
3) From elsewhere, live in NYC. That's me.
4) From elsewhere, live elsewhere, but interested in subways. Perhaps they wish they lived in NYC.
Good Idea
Perhaps they wish they lived in NYC.
A New Yorker friend of mine is fond of saying, "There are two types of people in America: Those who live in New York City, and those who wish they did."
Of course, he lives in Chicago. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I am a Born and Bread Brooklyner, but I doubt I would want to live in Brooklyn Again, or NYC unless I was given a great job, condo and Limo.No I won t run for mayor.
I'm glad I don't live in the City - I enjoy the visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. Nor would I want to live in Chicago again, even though I liked it when I did live there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm a number 3, a Swamp Yankee from CT. Lived in downtown Boston for a while, then SunnySide Queens, now a Long Islander. I call my wife a Cliff Dweller ... from apartment buildings in Brooklyn, then to attached houses. I introduced her to grass around the house and more then one block to the Delli. She hates my mom's place in CT, no side walks, fire plugs, or street lights. She also doesn't understand what all the fuss is about these dirty old trains. When we go to the city she prefers to ride a bus vs. subway (she use to take trolleys & Els to school ... maybe something bad happened that she hasn't told me about)
Mr t__:^)
I was Born and raised to the age of 12 in South Bend, Indiana in 1986 I was exiled to New York City in a Section in Queens called Flooo-Shing, been enjoying the Worlds fair r-36 cars since that time.
Kidding...about the Exiled part...
though I still miss my "Lake Effect", and Mounds and Mounds of snow on the ground.
What part of South Bend? I lived right on the eastern outskirts, near Town & Country Shopping Center. In fact, I remember when it opened.
Born and Raised in Queens, Always E&F rider, live on Upper East side now back in Queens, Always loved looking out the windows, and just like to have knowledge about what I'm riding in or on, Also love Airplanes and have a large collection of Photos and now want to start taking them of the Trains too
I live in the Long Island suburbs (Connecticut until a couple of years ago), but work in Manhattan.
I was born and raised in Astoria, Queens, I lived there until 1994. I currently live in Carmel, NY (Putnam County). However, I do commute Mon-Fri via Metro-North to Astoria, since I work as a conductor on the N line.
Long Schlep, does Metro North Give you a discount since you both work for the MTA
Yes, definitely a haul (about 2 hrs. door-to-door) but I wouldn't trade living here for anything. The railroad sure beats the hell out of driving (which I did for the first 3 years I lived here - I was working the 6 out of Pelham Bay at the time). It's all a matter of making that commuting time work for you. It's not so bad once you get used to it. Also, I can't beat the price - in 2 years using Metro-North, I've had to pay a grand total of 1 fare.
Billy P: You are a conductor on the best line of all, my Sea Beach. When I come to New York again and board the train, I'll let everyone know that Sea Beach Fred is on board. Then you can introduce yourself and we'll have a nice chat. Maybe this spring if the Stillwell Tour ever gets off the ground./
I was born in Chestnut Hill, Philadelphia.
Grew up in Oxford Circle, Philly, about a 15 minute walk from the El. In a way, I grew up on the El. My parents could only afford a car once I was in high school. And, I didn't learn to drive until after leaving home because I couldn't afford the insurance.
I spent 4 years in exile at the University of Delaware. That's where I developed my hatred of suburbia.
Then I worked in London for 4 months after graduating. I moved back to Philly where I lived for three years - Manayunk first, then Center City.
Two years ago I moved to NYC and I've lived on West Houston ever since.
I was born in Phila and am still here, although I've moved from South Phila to Eastwick back to South Phila and then to Roxborough (NW), which is where I sit as I write this.
I'm from Brooklyn.
Lived in New York (and worked for NYCT) for five years. Just trying to catch up on current news.
I'm from West Philadelphia. And it's my birthday!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!
Born in Inwood, then moved "uptown" to the Bronx and get to work the wonderful IRT.
I used to love the Inwood Park on Bdway just south of Dyckman St. My grandparents lived on Arden St until I was 13
I have spent my entire adolescent life of 56 years never leaving Sheepshead Bay in the boro of Brooklyn, except for one day spent at a place near the Canadian border, where newlyweds used to go.
Do you mean Niagara Falls?
Slowly I turned...step by step...inch by inch...
Slowly I turned...step by step...inch by inch...
....then I (((BOP!!!)))... then I..{{{MASH!!!}}}... then I...[[[CRUNCH!!!]]]...then I KNOCK 'EM DOWN!
GENTS WITHOUT CENTS
I feel another bout of Howard's Dizeeeze comin' on....
wayne :o>
I've lived in NYC for my whole life, right here in Midtown
Clark Palicka
TrAnSiTiNfO
i am from new jersey, but my father came from the bronx. my grandparents lived on washington ave before they the built the cross bronx expressway. my aunt live on the grandcourse at 199st. my uncle had a store at 200st.
Born and bred in Flatbush. Considered and still consider myself a Brooklynite.
Only a New Yorker to out-of-towners.
Now live at the end of the electric in Babylon, LI.
To even out of towners, consider your self a Brooklynite. People ask me where I am from, and if they pick up a little accent, they ask New York, and I say No, Brooklyn, and then they say isn t that the same, and I say no, Brooklyn was aseperate city longer then it was part of the city of NY, or Yankee(not the baseball team) by a defination off of a T shirt I got at LaGuardia years back. Anyone born withing 100 miles of Times Square, and I use the word BORN. That includes Sea Beach Fred.
Yankee has nothing to do with the New York area. A Yankee is a northerner.
To somebody from outside the US, a Yankee is simply an American.
To an American, a Yankee is a northerner.
To a northerner, a Yankee is somebody who lives in New England.
To a New Englander, a Yankee is somebody who lives in Vermont.
To a Vermonter, a Yankee is somebody who still uses an outhouse.
I'll stop there.
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
And to a Southerner, a Yankee is NEVER FORGIVEN :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not that type of Yankee
FYI: It's fitting that the word "Yankee" is sometimes used as an insult, because that's how it began.
In the 1600's, following the British conquest and renaming of the New Amsterdam colony, anything Dutch became a putdown: a "Dutch victory" is unconditional surrender, and a "Dutch treat" is not a treat at all.
The Dutch association with cheese resulted in the average Dutch male being referred to as John Cheese, which translates into the Dutch as Jan Kees ("YAHN KEESE"). That soon evolved into Yankee, and became associated with the antithesis of anything British.
The moral: Only New Yorkers could take an ethnic slur and make it something to be proud of!
The other version of that story was the that the Dutch in New Amsterdam called the English Johnnies(Jahnees) J pronounced Y, hence Yankees, so its originins arare local New York Tri State Area, as explained earlier, soon meant many things, depends who uses it. Even Conn Yankee in King Arthur s Court by Mark Twain, the hero came from :Southern Ct, which is well within 100 miles of Times Sq.
Some of us are on the other side of the Planet.
Iam from Swindon UK
Our first Overseas Person, A Brit
Aren't you overseas Bob, sort of?
Sort of over the pacific about 2300 miles SW of LA.
There are several of us. The only separation being distance and time.
Simon
Swindon UK
I am Brooklynite. I was born at Brookdale. Lived in Crown Heights by the 3/4 Utica Station until a year and a half ago. Moved along the 3 line to ENY. I now reside by the 3,L and the LIRR Bay Ridge line........ I am waiting for TA/MaBstoa to call me.......
3TM
Although I was born in Brooklyn, I lived in Ridgewood, Queens for my first 25 years (halfway between the Forest Ave. station on the M and the Halsey St. station on the L). For the last 25 I've lived in Nassau Co.
I was born in The Bronx and grew up in Brooklyn (Sheepshead Bay area, not far from Neck Rd. station on the Brighton line).
However, I've been living in the Chicago area for over 30 years now.
But, once a subway buff, always a subway buff.
-- Ed Sachs
I was born in Manhattan (1981), then moved to Queens when I was four and lived there until September of 1999. I've used the subway to go to school everyday from 4th grade through high school. That's why I became fascinated with subways. Throughout those years I've moved around. My home stations were the following in chronological order:
82 St JAckson Heights (Flushing Line)
52 St (Flushing Line)
40 St (Flushing Line)
Grand Ave (Queens Blvd Line)
Now I'm in college in Philly- 33rd Station on the Green Line and 34 St station on the MFL.
My heart will always be in NYC. It's quiet here compared to NYC, and the subway is a joke compared to NYC- it's brings you nowhere.
Born - Kings County Hospital Brooklyn, Moved to the Bronx lived there for 4 years, Gun Hill Road Station on the 5 (Rember the conduter taken the tokens on board?). Then Moved to Queens lived their for 6 years, Union Turnpike - Kew Garderns E&F. Then moved to Manhatan and lived here since- 96th St C. (and i also go to SI sometimes to vist family) Hows that for someone who doesn't even have a drivers Licences yet. (I think i am also the youngest subtalker, never to early to be a subway buff)
I'm the oldest subtalker who can't vote in this year's primary election. Or am I?
I work in New Jersey, have a house there as well as my long-time home in North Carolina, but I was born and raised mostly in Poughkeepsie, NY. I consider myself a North Carolinian.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does that mean that you consider yourself a "tarheel"?
Absolutely! And yes, it is properly with a small "t" - capitalized it has something to do with that school in Chapel Hill that thinks it's better than NC State (right) and Duke (wrong).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Boy that sounds good A Tar-Yankee Heal, or Yankee Tar Heal whatever
I am not from NYC, and have never lived there. Yet I have been there plenty of times, and been on the subways plenty of times. I live in Philadlephia, and get to ride SEPTA every weekday.
I was born in New Bedford (Acushnet) MA in 1954 and emigrated to Brooklyn at the age of four days (I was a foundling). I spent about eighteen months at Dora Court (2511 Newkirk Avenue) before moving to Elmont, where I stayed until 1976, when I married. I didn't go very far - about four miles away to Floral Park, Queens. I stayed in that area until 1984 when I moved to New Hyde Park, then to Westbury in 1987, finally to my present location, West Babylon in 1989. So I guess that makes me a New Yorker.
Wayne
Ok 4 days will make you a Native Brooklyner.
I consider myself a New Yorker. I was born in Germany (I am an American) and came to the states when I was 4. The early yeaes were filled with moves due to being an Army brat, but my sister was boren on Governor's Island. I went to second grade in bellmore, Long Island and moved to Brooklyn for third grade through High School. I wass yanked from the city after graduation and finally got back in Spring 1994.(and now planning on moving across the Hudson).
Born Terrace Heights Hospital, Holliswood, New York 1959. (It's now a mental hospital- don't laugh!) Lived in East Meadow till February 1963 when we moved in Whitestone, Queens, where my folks still live. No subways there, but very infrequent bus service to the suwbay terminals at Main Street Flushing (via Q16 via Francis Lewis ONLY) and 179th Street Jamaica (Q76, no Sunday service).
Lived in College Point from 1983 to 1989. Decent Q65 (Queens Surface) service to Flushing and Jamaica subways except for a week after a rainstorm.
Since 1989, the Mitchell Gardens co-ops of Flushing. (The Whitestone Expressway goes right behind me.) Choice of many buses to Flushing, but I still usually make the twenty-minute walk to the station even AFTER the elimination of two-fare zones.
You said you were born in Terrace Heights Hospital, which is now a mental hospital. I recently spent a few weeks there under the skillful eye of Drs Howard Fine and Howard. Any relation?
Are you sure it wasn t Larry Fein, of Howard, Howard, Howard and Fein
#4 Sea Beach Fred in a Californian who has lived in the Golden State for 45 year. I'm 59 years old and have visited New York three times since I moved away. The Dodgers followed me To California but I'm a Mets fan. My wife bought me a brand new Mets shirt yesterday, so I'm getting ready for the 2000 season. I'm going to start reading the other replies so I can get a feel where everyone is from.
Let's see. I was born in South Bend, Indiana - share the same birthday with Roy Campanella and Jodie Foster. Am a Notre Dame bleeder for life. Moved to New Jersey at the age of ten; became immersed in the NYC subway system and took a special liking to the A train. Must have been those R-10s that did it. Also became a Mets fan; 1969 was a very good year. Moved to Connecticut at the age of 16; finished high school there and enrolled at UConn. Finished my bachelor's in 1980 and came out to Colorado in September of that year. Since 1984, I've made it back east at least once a year and usually spend a few days in the city railfanning.
Although I've never lived in New York, a lot of people think I have. Must be the slight Jersey flavor in my speech.
Steve: Disregard my last message. You're a Mets fan just like me. How could I have thought you a Rockies fan. I have my moments.
I am from NYC, currently living in Cary, North Carolina, I get back 4X a year to visit all my family who still lives in Laurelton, Queens.
I was born in at Brooklyn Jewish Hospital in Brooklyn, NY in (1974) I live in Atlantic Towers on Hopkinson Ave and Atlantic until i was 3. Then my mother move herself and I to Ocean Ave in Brooklyn. I believe the address was 666 Ocean Apt. 3C. The neighborhood is not the same any more. Ther I have memories riding the D Express to Coney Island and sometimes the M local. MY mother used to ride the local, because I wasn't quite big enough to ride the express during rush hour. She thought I would get trampled. Go figure...
At the age of six, I moved with my mother to Laurelton, Queens. Which was once considered the suburbs, but looks more and more Flatbush on Merrick with all the traffic.
Although I miss NY, I like the southern living style now. But love trains, always have and always will....
Hey does anyone model railroads? particularly HO guge.. if so please email me, I would like to chat...
Frank D - Queens Blvd Exp.
Hi, I just wonder how many of you are from NYC?
How many of you are form out of town?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm from Toronto. I've never been to NYC -- I started visiting Subtalk after the major Toronto transit webboard was turned totalitarian by the management...
WOW this was some thread !!!
I've watched this site grow from mainly a bunch of NYC subway fans to a group of mass transit buffs from far and wide (USA and Europe too).
I see more and more post about Philly, Chicago, London AND don't mind a bit ... Thanks Dave, you've created a monster.
Mr t__:^)
queens. Long Island city/ Astoria border
Born in Brooklyn Unity Hospital in 1959. I have lived in Queens all my life (Forest Hills, Rego Park-Corona, Kew Gardens, Briarwood and Kew Gardens Hills). I take either the Q74 to The Union Tpke Station or the Q20A or B or the Q44 to the Van Wyck Blvd. Station. Some days, when I want variety, I'll take the Q44 to Roosevelt Ave to get the #7. I hate express busses!
grew up in mill basin first(used to take the B-3 to the D,M or QB). Moved to Sheepsead Bay (1978-1993). Rode the M a lot(i was at the Avenue U stop) and remember the D being 4 cars on weekends. Also can remember April of 1986:the first(and not the last) rerouting of the trains over the manhattan bridge. And how long did they predict it would be completly fixed(now going on 15 years)...
(Also can remember April of 1986:the first(and not the last) rerouting of the trains over the manhattan bridge. And how long did they predict it would be completly fixed(now going on 15 years)... )
There was a band in the 70's that called itself NRBQ. If I am correct, they took their name from the 4 lines on the Broadway line. I guess they had to break up when the Manny B went out of service.
LOL.
Looking for fellow redbird fans interested in
meeting up and riding the soon-to-be-extinct
redbirds on the 2 line. Would like to compose
a documentary on the 'birds with comments and
interviews from redbird fans.
As I said before, Count me in!
Can anyone explain why both the IND and IRT 34th St./Penn. Sta. subway platforms are configured with 2 side platforms and 1 island platform rather than 2 island platforms? I used to think that this had something to do with the amtrak tunnels underneath, but there are crossunders (which seems to indicate that there's plenty of room between the subway tunnels and the rail tunnels), so that explanation doesn't make much sense. The description of both stations on this website says that this arrangement was meant to discourage transfers between express and local trains. I don't understand why that would have been a concern. Can anyone provide more details?
I dunno why. I am guessing it's either the track alignments @ Penn Station for the LIRR and other trains, or it could have something to do with the foundation of Madison Square Garden. Then again, it could be something else totally different. I usually ride the E to 34th if I go to the Garden, been there 2x - Ranger game in October & Metallica/St. Luke's Orchestra concert in November, the latter of which I sat on the 7th ave side, the former, on 8th ave. I do like the configuration, makes it distinct from all other subway stations in New York. And if you're going to the Garden, it's perfect because if you sit on the 7th ave side, you can take an IRT train, or the 8th ave side, an IND. That's my point of view.
"Broadway Jorge" Catayi
I <3 N.Y.
BTW
Let's Go Rangers!!!! MSG Blue Seats RULE!!!!
No, the IRT station was opened in 1918, the IND was opened in 1932. The Garden was opened in 1968! Doesn't it look a lot younger than the subway?
Ahh true that, my mistake. I forgot, the Garden used to be @ 50th & 8th.
That may explain ANOTHER reason for the upper and lower level stations at 50th on the IND- this way folks coming out of the Garden don't crowd on one local side platform..If you were headed home to Queens you had a sep platform from the folks going uptown to home in Wash Heights or the Bronx....
That's a whole different kettle of fish. E trains turn eastward under 53rd St. just to the north of that station, and that lower level puts them at the proper grade. It would have been difficult, if not impossible, to have diverging tracks at that location mostly because you also have the B/D tracks coming in from the north. There are three really hairy flying junctions on the IND, and that's one of them. The other two? The north of Rockefeller Center and the one under Smith St. just west of the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station. The latter tops them all.
These stations, with people coming from the RR lines, would have a large amount of boarding and exiting to the terminals. transferring would make the situation worse. Besides, it's not necessary to transfer there, Times Square, which has a normal setup, is only one stop away.
To discourage riders from using this station as a transfer between local and express trains, because of the high volume expected at these stations.
>>>Can anyone explain why both the IND and IRT 34th St./Penn. Sta. subway platforms are configured
with 2 side platforms and 1 island platform rather than 2 island platforms?<<<
Actually...they're DESIGNED so no easy local-express transfers are possible.
The IRT was concerned about overcrowding at the busy Penn Station stop when the station was built, so they deliberately constructed the platforms that way. When the IND constructed its station in the 1930s, they followed suit.
That's the story I hear, anyway.
If you stand near the steps, and you see the lights in the tunnel, you can make a transfer if you hustle. Or wait till you get to 14th or 42nd. But it IS pretty inconvenient.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The layout also separates boarding passengers by their destinations, providing better distribution of passengers exiting Penn. (They come in bigger bunches than those exiting subway trains)
I guess thats the reason for the same layout at the Atlantic Av IRT Station since the LIRR is there. It means that any LIRR passenger who wants to go to the Lexington Line will change at Nevins so they won't have to climb steps.(By the way, I did say the IRT Atlantic Av station, I could never figure out the configuration of the LL Atlantic Av sta. But I guess it will be simpler when they take down the Sneidiker Av El)
No, the Atlantic station is set up that way because the express tracks and the island platform were built in 1908 for the IRT Brooklyn Extension. The outer platforms and tracks were added in 1919 when the "H" system was created.
You can also use the electronic train annunciators at either station.
[f you stand near the steps, and you see the lights in the tunnel, you can make a transfer if you hustle.]
That's Hustle with a capital H. In my 11 years going uptown I've done a few times, but mostly it wasn't worth the bother because it's a LONG run to get there in time.
Mr t__:^)
Compare these platforms with the mess at Grand Central, and you'll see the reason why! Since the Lex didn't have any other express stops nearby, (at the time of construction that, is) they were forced to make it a 'normal' express stop, with the resulting crush there...If there had been a 59th St available as an express stop at construction time, they might have done it at Grand Central,too..
The original design for the Grand Central subway staton was made at a time when Grand Central was simply a station for people who traveled in and out of the city. It was more like an airport rather than a commuter rail terminal. The idea of thousands of people living in Rockland County and Connecticut having to transfer to subway lines at GC to commute to jobs in Manhattan every day was not in the designers mindset.
Also remember that the Grand Central Terminal we know today did not exist in 1904. The old Grand Central Depot was still around.
Of course, the one with the problems is the Lexington Avenue station, opened 6 years after the modern terminal.
It was also and 26th and Fifth at one time too.
It's a handle I gave myself, as a little internet handle since I am a Ranger fan. I use this also as the administrator of the NY Rangers message board @ www.nhlfans.net Plus, I was born a block away from Broadway, Amsterdam Ave to be exact. That's the story, if anybody actually cares, lol.
"Broadway Jorge" Catayi
tripod78@yahoo.com
nyctransitguy@hotmail.com
I <3 N.Y.
Can anyone tell me when and why the Newark City Subway mounted pantographs on top of its PCC's? Feel free to point me to a site or page site or past posting here.
Interesting that the trolley pole is still there, vestigally I imagine. (Maybe some trolley museums which inherit the cars will resurrect the trolly poles.)
I plan to take a day off work to railfan and photograph the PCC's this month before they are retired. Anyone else thinking the same?
Ooops, I didn't see your question. I just mentioned the answer
in a post about Catenary wire.
I also am gonna ride the Newark City Subway again (like i have many times) I am gonna ride it on the last day of operation as the "Newark City Subway" then the first day as the "Inter-City Subway" because of the exspansion to downtown Bloomfield, If you want to see the new 2000 Trolley Cars that will take the place of the old ones go to the corner of Watsessing Ave and Franklin St on the border of Bloomfield and Belleville and you can see the new cars
Catch the current issue of RailPace and see three shots of the Newark Subway. Two of the new Light Rail cars (one being under the PATH (PRR) overpass at Harrision. See a shot of Franlin Ave of the loop and now the track that continues beyone. One PCC is on the new track, one just out of the loop. Both using Pantagrpahs but they stil have their trolley poles, wierd too with the poles down and locked.
Drop by and see the new update at TransiTALK. Update with countless new bus and rail images (new R-142, LIRR, and Redbirds included). Click here to catch the TransiTALK Update
Regards,
Trevor Logan
TransiTALK
I was just wondering about the MDBF mileage figures. Are there any figures for how much it costs to maintain the different class car fleets? I would imagine that the high MDBF figures reflect increased expenditures in preventive maintenance. I am curious what the costs per car would be to achieve the high MDBF figures?
Back in the mid-1980s there was an UMTA Section 8 funded study (innovative technical studies grant) for a "cost by line" study, which I managed. We developed two costs for each subway car class -- a "maintenance" cost and a "trouble" cost (basically the cost of road car inspectors plus "troubles off inspections", e.g. things that were broken that had to be fixed when found). I have no idea whether NYCT has ever updated this study, but we did find very significant differences in per-mile costs between car classes. The study itself is a public document, and can be ordered from the National Technical Information Service (NTIS). I haven't checked, but for all I know it may be online by now.
I am not clear what a "maintenance" cost and a "trouble" cost is. I was wondering whether the increased distance between failures was a consequence of increased expenditures to aggressively do preventive maintenance?
There was a statistic that was kept which was referred to as "Miles per maintenance man-hours". Since the cost of one man-hour could be determined, keeping track of fleet maintenance costs was possible. However, this is not the case since th form that was filled out by the car inspector (Referred to as the "0-2 Card"), which recorded actual time spent on assignment, has been obsoleted.
As to your second question, you are correct. The SMS program is largely responsible for the vast increase in MDBF.
Thanks Steve. Are there figures for what the scheduled maintenance on the cars costs? I seemed to remember taking a tour of the Coney Island Shops several years ago. At the time, I think the R-68's were in the midst of some major system replacement.
I ask the question about cost, because I have the sense that a really aggressive preventive maintenance approach can be rather expensive.
I can't give you any figures, but I can explain some of the theory behind agressive maintenance. When something breaks down, the failing component is going to have to be replaced no matter what. So as far as repair work is concerned - that cost is there either way. Secondly, some sort of running inspection is required at fixed intervals anyway, so a certain cost is expended there no matter what. Agressive inspections entail some more labor costs, maybe 5 hours per car, to catch potential failures before they happen. HOWEVER, when a car breaks down on the road, you have additional costs which cannot be controlled.
The crew on the failing train may incur overtime due to the breakdown. Numerous following trains are delayed or rerouted. Service suffers up and down the line, causing other businesses to incur costs or suffer losses. The train may have to be towed back to a yard, or in the case of a broken axle (it happened twice in Boston recently) or similar major failure, a repair crew may have to be sent to the scene with special equipment. If a door fails, someone might get hurt, either by the door itself or by stepping through an opening into a tunnel. Other failures also can injure, for example a loose interior cover swinging out and striking a passenger. All of these things cost money, and most are preventable.
As the auto repairman says "You can pay me now - or pay me later".
"Maintenance" is the labor and materials for routine activities (in the 1980s, these were "A", "B", and "C" maintenance levels). "Trouble" is anything unscheduled, any additional hours to finish scheduled work, etc. THe idea was that the ratio of trouble to maintenance cost would indicate classes of cars (or specific inspection barns -- there were 11 then) that were "bad actors". As it turned out, there was substantial variance in the maintenance/trouble ratio between car classes, as well as in total cost per mile, but data were not sufficiently detailed to do a proper analysis.
When I was at the TA in materials management 1986 to 1988, there was a big emphasis on getting all the parts needed for maintenance.
When I visited some old co-workers a few years later, in the recession, they said everything had changed, and they were in "would the world end tomarrow" mode. Ie. "Would the world end tomarrow if we ran out of those parts."
Was scheduled maintenance cut back in the early 1990s recession? The TA certainly stopped buying cars, and failed to start any significant expansions.
I'll have to order up a copy. Several times I've asked TA officials if they know the cost by line, and they have said that they don't. Moveover, they don't want to know, because the MTA doesn't want to put the word out which rail/bus lines are subsidizing which other rail/bus lines.
Line by line costs are interesting but some feeder lines are needed to support the overall system. Access is the important indicator.
Cost of maintaining equipment is diferent than perfomance of routes. If a class of equipment has high maintanace costs relative to others then replacement or a rebuild may be needed. Looking at the data, especially with buses will help select what buses should be replaced or rebuilt and with what.
Shop by shop comparisons may tell if a shop is using better practices but it is difficult to compare staff if they are working with different equipment.
And yes there is mean cost per car class for maintenance if you want to find it. The TA may not report it or want to find it.
Recently i was at the 125th station, i noticed that on the northbound side right at the beginning of the platform on the 4,5 line side, i noticed a signal tower with working lights inside is this a active tower?I also noticed the same thing at 161th Street station{IND southbound side}
These towers generally speaking are unmanned except during G.O.'s. when they are manned. They are active. These types of towers are controlled by a master tower. In the case of 161st St., it would be the 205th St tower. The lights that you see are indicator lights on the board of the interlocking machine. You can get a close up look at this type of tower at tht Transit Museum.
Peace,
Andee
Hi all, since I am only 14 I never saw double letter lines because the year I was born (1985) was the year where double letters ended. I never got to ride lines like the AA, Culver Shuttle, EE and my favorite never seen line the 8. (3rd Ave. El) So how was it to ride all of those great lines, Riding on lines that are not here today and going down trackways that are not used or have been torn down? I wish I could ride those lines cause it would have been heaven.
Christopher Rivera
Also how were the cars like in the past??
My only recollection of riding trains no longer here is of the Jamaica Ave. el.
Be thankful you missed the late 70's/early 80's. The system was falling apart, grafitti was everywhere and crime was beyond belief. There were times in 1979 and 80 when it appeared the entire system would collapse.
take away the ""crime"?? and grafitti it semed as good and or better !!! especially the r1-9s r 10s r30s etc....
Quotation marks go OUTSIDE other punctuation.
What R-1/9, in 1979/80?
PLEASE!! Between the balky cars, the HORRIBLE condition a LOT of the track was in, the graffiti covered EVERYTHING, you name it. Today is much much better, so what if the R68s SEEM to be going a little slow,or management doesn't seem to know the term "RAPID" transit..still much improved & liveable for Joe Commuter. oh yeah, its a hundred times safer too! No NEED for the Red Berets to ride the rails..(where is Curtis today anyway??-Back managing a Mickey D's??)
Curtis is broadcasting just about 24 hours a day on WABC, whenever Rush Limbaugh or the Yankees aren't on.
The period of 1960-1970 was the best time to be a subway rider as far as cars models go, because you went from the last of the first-generation types on the BMT and IRT to the beginning of the current body design and air conditioning with the R-40M/R-42. The down side was, deferred maintenance really started to take hold by the mid 60s, and sewed the seeds for the disasters of the 1970s-1980s.
In that 10-year period, you could ride Standards, Triplexes, Q cars, Lov Vs, Worlds Fair Low Vs and every R-series car ever made from the R-1s to the R-42s. And back then, until you got to the R-16/R-17 design, every car modle had its own distinct look -- even a non-railfan could tell a multisection unit from an R-10.
Fifteen years from now, there will probably be only three types of cars on the IRT (R-62, R-142 and the R-whatever-it-is-that-replaces-the-last-of-the-Redbirds), while the BMT and IND might have as many as six different styles around, if the R-32s do make it to their 50th birthday.
The IRT historically was always the home of less varied body types,its just a smaller system. Back before 1949, ALL IRT car bodies looked basically the same, except for the 1939 WF cars. You had to more than a casual railfan to tell the difference between Hi and Low-Vs, trailers and powered cars. Same thing withthe pre-R-10 IND, only a true rail buff could tell the diff between an R-1 and an R-9 (if you hid the road numbers that is!)
But once you got in the 60's the post low & high V's were very varied, even on one train. I never remember any R10's mixed with later models but on the IRT you had many trains with R-12's mixed with later models.
Something else I noticed too in the 60's -- even though the IRT car types were being mixed, they were all that sooty black, and you could always tell each type apart.
Once they began getting the silver & blue MTA paint, they all seemed to blend together.
I remember the first silver and blue paint job I saw -- an R-17 on the 6 pulling into Grand Central on the downtown side. I thought it looked great -- until I stepped inside and saw that gray-and-green paint scheme.
As the 70s wore on, it seemed like the MTA's attitude towards maintenance was "if we paint it, maybe no one will notice half the door leaves are broken and the lights don't work." Combined with the onset of the graffiti scourge, I came to associate the blue-and-silver with the decline of the subway system.
When they painted the R1-9's that gray and green I thought they looked disgusting.
I thought the R7 and R9 trains in their original green paint scheme looked the best. I sometimes wish the "redbirds" were painted that color.
What about when before the #7's were painted white???
I believe the Flushing R36's were still sporting their WF blue color scheme before they were painted the infamous "garbage truck" white, although it might have been obscurred by dirt and grafitti.
Photos in the NYC subway car book show that some of the WF R36's went from their original, though filthy and faded, blue/white scheme to the MTA blue/silver scheme -- THEN to the garbage truck white.
What was even more disgusting on the R1-9 cars was that god-awful orange and blue they tried on one trainset. Looked just about like the color of the puke it induced.
I remember the terrible heat on the IRT in the summer. John Lindsey who was the mayor at that time said that the IRT couldn't be air conditioned because the profile of the car was smaller than the IND/BMT and there was no room for the equipment. What a jerk! That was one of the reasons I moved out of NYC. I didn't feel like going to work for the rest of my life wearing a suit and tie in a rolling oven. He also taxed the daylights out of me to pay for assorted deadbeats all of whom had a long sad story on why they couldn't pull their own weight. I think Guiliani is great. If he were mayor then I would still be in NYC.
[I remember the terrible heat on the IRT in the summer. John Lindsey who was the mayor at that time said that the IRT couldn't be air conditioned because the profile of the car was smaller than the
IND/BMT and there was no room for the equipment. What a jerk!]
He also conveniently forgot that PATH/H&M had been able to air condition cars that were similar in size to the IRT's.
TA and MTA officials were reminded about that for the next decade, as first the R-40s, then the R-42s, R-44s and R-46s arrived. They had to be dragged kicking and screaming into installing the AC units on the R-33s in 1978.
R29 and R33 wore red as delivered (not exactly what they are wearing today). R21 and R22 were the charcoal grey, which was what the track dust turned the original olive drab.
Wayne
Yeah, I remember that red on the R29/33's VERY well -- the yellow grab irons really stood out. The green R-21/22's looked good when brand new, as the bare metal at the bottom of the doors (the floor edge runners, or whatever they are called) stood out.
I remember when the R33/36 WF cars were delivered -- the car washers at Corona were not completely installed. Then winter came, so the cars actually did get VERY dirty, almost to the point where they were starting to look like their mainline brethren. The car washers started being used around March of 1964, and the cars somehow came clean again!!
Did the whole system have the silver and blue paint in some way?????
Not quite. Only a handful of R-7s and R-9s on the Eastern Division were painted silver and blue, and I never saw any of them. None of the oldtimers which remained on the IND were repainted, and the Flushing R-36s were passed over the first time around in 1970-71. While the R-32s kept their fluted sides, their doors were painted silver on the outside.
I think perhaps the pre-war IRT had more distinctions than that of the standard IND. Don't get me wrong, though. I loved the R-1-9 series.
But the Hi-V's had differences: window arrangements, railroad roofs vs Deck roof. MUDC vs manual doors. Yes, there was variety.
And each division seemed to have its own odors. Always associate juicy fruit gum with the old IRT. Dnetyne with the new R17's.
The R22 came in with sealedbeam headlights; all prior cars had plain headlights. The view from the front of a car without bright headlights and with bulbs on the interior gave a neat effect; you almost felt part of the train, especially if the front window dropped down, like the BMT had.
srandards.
Brian Cudahy makes a good analogy in Under the Sidewalks of New York, comparing the IRT car variations to watermark variations on postage stamps. He goes on to say that it was possible to distinguish a train of Gibbs Hi-Vs from a train of 1925 Lo-Vs by the sound of the motors. Never having ridden on any prewar IRT equipment, I can't substantiate that; however, since all prewar cars had spur-cut bull and pinion gears, the moans and groans were probably the same as the sounds I remember on the R-1/9s and BMT standards.
He's hosting a successful talk show on WABC with Ron Kuby. But he still wears that beret ...
Oh..ok...Ive been listening to the same show in the morning now for almost 15 years now,* so I have NO idea whos on what station in the am....
*three guesses which show that is....
Howard Stern?
Don Imus?
NPR?
If you're like me its Howard Stern. That's the only time I don't have CBS-FM 101.1 on.
Howard is okay, but he's getting abit long in the tooth. Alot of his jokes are getting old and tired. I tend to enjoy the antics of Opie and Anthony in the afternoon (107 FM?). After Stern I turn to "The Radio Chick". She's on the same station before the O&A Show.
Doug aka BMTman
I used to love IMUS until WNBC went off the air and he went to WFAN. I think the Fan cut off all the risky stuff and ruined his show. Unless Imus himself just got duller. I'm rarely up for Howard but when I am I always listen to him. Then its CBS-FM the rest of the time. I had Don K Reed's Doo Op Shop on all night and Cousin Brucie is the greatest. (Present company excluded, Todd G if you're on!)
Unfortunatly my favorite morning talk show host, Lionel, quit 2 years ago. Now I strictly listen to WCBS 880.
WNEW-FM 102.7.
I listen to NewsRadio 88 myself.
--Mark
I guess you are not George, you would have told me where all your Apple Trees are planted. Winchester Fredricks County Va
Right off Route 522, and just a half a mile up the road from my Mom & Dad's house on Oates Avenue, Winchester VA 22601.
Man that little town has become a serious small city!
Wayne
Wow! Someone else in here from Winchester? I lived there in 1981 -- way out on the east side of town, Maloy Road (22607).
Funny, I am planning to move to Berryville 10 miles East on Rt 7 either later this year or early next. I love that era, Hopefully Virginia will run a commuter train out there. I know if you go up to W Va, you can catch the Maryland Train to DC twice a day.
WNEW 102.7 should become the official Subtalk radio station.
WIRT 10.27 MHzx10
In two words: Dirty, filthy. (inside & outside)
You left off one word (total should be three): HOT
It was a lot of fun to ride the els and subways in the 1940's and 1950's. All of the trains were great! We never had to worry about which car was air-conditioned, because none of them were.
The problem with the lack of air-conditioning was not just the heat, but also the noise. Usually all of the doors between cars were open. If you had a car with flat wheels, the noise would reach dangerous levels (unless the train was above ground). I'm sure I suffered some permanent hearing damage during those years.
I did like the Bronx Third Avenue el; I lived at Gun Hill Road during its last two years. The stations below Fordham Road looked like they hadn't changed in 80 years.
I think I must have been in an era of better maintenance, because I don't remember many flat wheels, not on the subways and els anyway. On the freight railroads it was another story, it seemed that every other car had a flat wheel.
I can't ever remember the storm doors being open on the Standards, no matter how hot it was.
The entire fleet of R16's that ran on the J line towards their final days seemed to have nothing but flat wheels.
I saw several pictures of the interiors of the R-16's after they redid the door motors, and had to slant the upper part of the interior panels,it really made those cars look strange!
Yup, which is why I chose it to be on my handle.
The system was very noisy in the 1970s when the cars were not maintained well. The IRT equipment seemed to be the worst, and their doors were always open in the summer. The R10s were another loud group of cars.
"I can't ever remember the storm doors being open on the Standards, no matter how hot it was."
The storm doors on the Standards never opened, they were locked and only opened electrically.
Did they actually slide open, or where they just unlocked like on an R-68?
I'm not sure. I never saw them open or close. I just saw them closed and remember travelling with my gandmother and having to run from one car to the next at each station!! I only learned about them being operated electrically from subtalk.
I think the storm doors slid on a track like the
regular doors.
It is a little known fact ( and not true ) that the
storm doors only opened in stormy weather, so as to
provide the passengers with some thrills and chills.
People then didn't have to be kept in a climate
controlled climate to keep from spoiling..
The storm doors on a Standard did slide on a track, and they could be opened and closed again in case of emergency from the "conductors" control panel.
There was a bypass button on some of the series of Standards. I can't remember now whether it was the earlier or later ones. It was located under the double seat opposite the motorman's compartment. On the Standard this double seat faced the compartment. You could lift up the wicker seat cushion and press the button on top of a valve like affair, and the storm door would slide open. It apparently did not affect the operation of the train or give any indication to the operators. Opening one storm door did not accomplish anything unless you had a friend in the next car, who could duplicate your efforts and open the facing storm door. On straight track this was not a problem, but on any kind of a curve or turn, the 67 foot length of the car presented a very dangerous situation if a person were to try to pass between cars.
02/06/2000
Those end storm doors on the BMT Standards were never open for passenger egress. Due to the fact that of very close clearances when switching and on curves, someone changing cars could actually get caught and maybe fall to the tracks.
Bill Newkirk
Which, IIRC, is the exact same reason the 75' cars have their storm doors locked.
For me, riding in the 60's and 70's was wonderful.
We had the BMT Triplexes, the BMT Standards, and the
IND R 1/9's. It was a world illuminated by bare
light bulbs. In the winter time, you could get nice
and warm and toasty sitting on one of the wicker
seats of an R 1/9 heated by its own heater. Instead
of listening to the feedback of the PA system, you
could listen to the pumping of an air compressor, or
listen to the air release sounds of the air brakes.
When a train went over a switch, you could look down
the set of cars, and watch the lights blink on and
off from car to car. If you were riding a Triplex,
you could ride in that little section between two
cars. If you were lucky, and could get to the front
window on the front car, you could look out to your
heart's content. Kids actually wanted to look out
the front window. On the Triplexes, Standards, and
even some of the newer IRT cars, the front window
would drop down half way and you could go barreling
along on an express run and have the wind blow in
your face.
Another big thing was I rode the trains and
enjoyed the trains without knowing a whole lot about
the trains. It was fun riding the trains, and fun
running into a set of R9's in their final days. It
wasn't so much of a head trip about how much I knew,
as it was how good it felt.
So Christopher, my advice, and remember it is coming
from someone who is not dealing with a full deck, is
to ride the subways and experience it. Watch the
motorman, or watch out the front window, or watch
the speedometer in the cab, or DO whatever speaks to
your heart. Get to KNOW transit, nor just know
about it.
Hey Christopher, around the time of the transit
strike, when I was trying to organize people here to
get ready to provide alternate ways to get around
the city, didn't you volunteer to be in charge of
the Marine Operations? If that was you, thanks for
being the only one on this board who pitched in.
02/05/2000
Chris Rivera,
Sounds like you identify with that old Poni-tails record, "Born to late". Yes you lament about missing those great now begone subway lines and equipment. But I shouldn't talk either, although I got to ride the Myrtle Ave and Bronx 3rd Ave "el's",ride the BMT Standards,D & Q Types, R1-9's and witness brand new R-27/30's and 32's, I too am envious of older railfans. Railfans who rode the Manhattan "els", elevated and trolley cars too. We can all have comfort in one thing, we identify with the promise of a Second Avenue subway. Notice I didn't say STUBWAY !!
Bill Newkirk
Hey Paul and I are from the same school(Literary) I agree with him, but the one thing that was not that great was standing up on a pre Aircon train, in the middle of the summer, in 90 degree weather and 90 plus humidity, and smell everyone around you.
I rode the trains a lot before A/C, and I don't remember body odor being much of a problem. Maybe people showered more in the old days. Now when somebody "lost their lunch", that was another story, that was enough to drive you off the train at the next stop.
Body oder is a bigger problem on Ac'd cars now. People sweat in blistering hot stations, then when they've developed a nice funk, they get on a train which is completely sealed because of the AC. At least the old cars, with their windows and storm doors open, created a nice breeze which dissipated most undesireable odors.
I feel the same way, Bill - I remember the Q's, Standards, Triplexes, R1-9's, and express service on the BMT Broadway line with Brighton, Sea Beach and West End trains following one right after another over the Manhattan Bridge. But I often wondered what it was like when the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Ave. Els made their way up and down Manhattan, and the Fulton, Lexington and 5th Ave. Els were still around in Brooklyn. Looks like we were all "Born Too Late".
Does anyone remember the 3rd Ave below 149th St, I do vagually rideing it. But I do remember it from 14th St from my Great Uncle s Store 25 feet East of 3rd. and my favorite resturaunt on the otherside the Italian Kitchen. There I am bringing up food again.
I agree with heypaul. I was a teenager in the 70's and got my first tastes of railfanning back then. On the positive side, there was a much larger variety of rolling stock -- BMT/IND running both R 1-9 AND R-44/46 equipment (when it the 44's were working); as well there was the R-40 (slant and modifieds), the 42s, the R-27/30 workhorses and even the R-11/34 experimental cars that were holding down the Franklin Avenue Shuttle.
Negatively, however, the system in general was in a state of decline, with both horrendeous graffiti and deferred maintenance problems. Also, subway crimes were at out-of-control levels.
The best aspect of that era was certainly the diversity of equipment, much of them never to be seen in service again.
Doug aka BMTman
If you ask about the 50s, it seemed the speeds were faster, the operators friendlier to railfan lookers if you were a kid. I remember the little window on the door of the cab, I think it was the AB or Triplex or both, and you could watch the Motorman. Of course in the 50s the trains were noisier, and that made them seem faster too.
Another thing about the 50's, 60's,70's and even now, try to ride the system with wonder. I remember a project I started in the 60's. I noticed that the R1/9's were built by different companies. There was Pullman Standard, Pressed Steel, and American Car and Foundry. Fortunately, I did not have a list of cars and car builders. So whenever I rode the cars, I would go through the train and jot down car numbers and manufacturers. It was a mystery, and each trip brought some new information. I don't remember the results, but it was fun and interesting when I did it. Within recent years, I use to ride the Q when the R68's were on the line. On most of the cars, the Q was in a diamond shape on the side destination sign. There was a rare car with a bigger Q within a circle that seemed so much warmer and friendlier. I use to scan a train to see if they had one,and go into that car and kind of felt at peace. It was something special to me. Nuts? Probably sounds that way.
What's the point? Whatever intrigues you or speaks to your heart, follow it as long as it does you no harm. And don't let head knowledge turn off the wonder and beauty of your vision. Don't let the knowledge of why a sunset is many colored or why the moon seems much larger when it is close to the horizon stop you from enjoying a sunset or a rising full moon.
heypaul, your post is almost poetry.
I was really moved by it (moved to go over to the oven and stick my head in it).
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
heypaul's next work will be "Ode to a BMT Stadard". We wait with bated breath ...
Paul, it makes me feel good to be in Maui. This evening I will walk out my door, turn right, 100 feet, go to the corner, turn right walk 2 blocks. The distance between E 19 and E 17th St in the old neighborhood, except on the Highway) cross a 2 lane street, go to the park, cross the park, on to the beach, watch the sun set over the Pacific Ocean, over 3 Islands here in Maui. Did you know if you listen carefully on a tropic sun, when it sets on the ocean, you can hear the fizz as the sun hits the water. By the way, answer your e mail.
It may be hard to believe now, but on the R1/9s and I think on the R10s the conductor had to stand between the cars to open the doors. I often heard of passengers falling between cars, but never conductors. They must have had steadier nerves than most of us.
All the iRT Hi and Lo Volts, the BMT Triplex the conductor stood between cars. My uncle always came home dirty and coughing from work.
Also the R-12's however they were never in the middle of the train so the conductor was always in the cabs of newer cars. (except of course when they were the newest!) On the Standards the conductors stood in the middle of the car with the controls on the center door. I remember on the R1-12's the conductor closed the doors by hitting the top of the controls hard and it usually made a loud bopping sound.
I don't remember conductors standing between the cars when the cars were R10's in the early '80s. Were internal door controls added later?
Nope...the R-10s had exterior door controls for their entire lives.
David
R12,R14 too. R15 was the first order of cars to have indoor door controls
R12,R14 too. R15 was the first order of cars to have indoor door controls
It was the best of times. It was the worst of times. As for transit, I wouldn’t mind reliving those years. Some people on this BB complain about non-air conditioned subway cars. Except for some experimental equipment in the sixties, the first air conditioned cars were the Slant R-40’s. Lets recount a time when most rolling stock had wicker seats, exposed fans, exposed incandescent lightbulbs, spur-cut bull and pinion gears that made a grinding sound; a time when there were 3 clearly-defined divisions known as BMT, IRT and IND; a time when the “new” arch-roof R-Type cars were replacing the Hi and Lo-V’s, when the A/B’s and D-Types ruled the BMT and the R-1/9’s ruled the IND, a time when the wooden Q-Types ran on the Myrtle Ave. El and the Steinways and 1938 WF cars ran on the 3rd Ave. El, a time when the fare was 15¢, a time when the brand new olive drab R-27’s first appeared on the BMT Southern Division. The year was 1960. It was the year that I turned 6, JFK was elected to the White House and the cold war was in full swing. In a couple of years, the Ponitails would come out with a song “Born Too Late”. We all somehow feel that we were born too late. Today’s 20 year old feels he was born too late; having missed the Myrtle and 3rd Ave. Els, the R-1/9’s, the Triplexes and Standards, etc., etc., etc.! When I was 20, I felt that I was born too late, having missed the Manhattan els, the Fulton St. El, the gate cars, the MUDC’s, the C-Types, etc., etc., etc.! Time is all relative. Those who were born in 1920, who got the chance to ride all that I was born too late for, probably felt that they were born too late – too late for steam on the els, too late for horse cars, too late for thru service on Fulton-Brighton, too late for back alley rides on BU’s on grade-level Southern Division lines going between Park Row and Coney Island. I am thankful for my cherished memories during the sixties and seventies. But, here’s my message to those in their teens and twenties:
Your children, if they become railfans will say that they were born too late – too late to ride a Slant R-40, too late for railfan windows, too late for the Redbirds. All you young railfans out there, just enjoy railfanning in your time period and don’t fret over what you missed. Everyone “missed” something. You young railfans may get to see something that us middle-aged people in our forties may not live to see – a 2nd Ave. Subway.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
If you want to be anonymous, don't put in your sig!
Welcome back.
If you want to be anonymous, don't put in your sig!
Welcome back.
Thanks for the "Welcome Back". I didn't want anyone to read my post just because it was from me. I wanted everyone to read what I had to say even though they didn't know who it was from until they pulled it up, if that makes any sense.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Great Post, but born too late came out in 58, when I moved from Bklyn to LA
Great Post, but born too late came out in 58, when I moved from Bklyn to LA
'58? I could have sworn it was '62.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
Where you been?
Where you been?
Hi. I was on the MTA for the past few weeks. I brought Charlie back with me. He's been on the MTA since 1958. He finally returned! So did I.
akahttp://www.geocities.com/~nyctransit
He finally found the nickle to get off, or is it a dime?
WELCOME BACK! Did Charlie share any of his wife's sandwiches with you?
Wayne
Well (this could get to be a long post)...
My subway heritage goes back to early childhood riding Lo-V's etc. with my Mom and Dad from Newkirk Avenue to Borough Hall IRT. But my primary experiences date from my first real railfan trip - July 27, 1963. From that year through 1968 we had an annual "subway day" - railfan trips all over the city. After August 3, 1968, the trips became much more numerous until I got my wings on February 3, 1971 (the "wings" meaning official permission to ride solo from Elmont to wherever). During 1973 and 1974 I commuted via N6 bus and "F" train to Manhattan (Lex-53rd).
As for riding in the 60s and 70s - there were tons of wheezing, creaking R-types (R-1, R-4, R-6, R-7 and R-9), especially on lines like the "E", "F" (yes, they were there), "EE", "GG", "CC", and later discovered to have completely infested the entire Eastern Division (except for R27s/R30s on the "QJ"). The last of the BMT Standards were sputtering out (we saw the last one, on the "M" on our August 4, 1969 marathon trip). Slant R40s were new and exciting, especially the air-conditioned ones. And R42s were starting to make their appearance, the first fully-air-conditioned fleet. Some of our late 1969 trips were spent seeking these cars out. Every line (except for the "HH") had at least one train of them. Air-conditioning was a novelty and a blessed relief (especially in the summer). In 1972, the first R44s appeared on the "F". I just missed one at 47th-50th one day and rode clear to Coney Island just to ride it back. One of the cars I rode that day was #140, later to be renumbered #5282, and later still to suffer a horrible fate at 135th Street. By early 1973, they were in full evidence on the "F" line, and the R-1 and R-4 cars were for the most part gone. R-16s replaced R-6s and R-7s on the "EE" and "GG". R-6s and R-7s moved over to the "CC". The one thing that I miss most about the 60s and the 70s was the faster express runs. Today, with all the GTs and modifications, you're lucky if you get above 45MPH even under a full green (although I DID get lucky on December 11th aboard an R38). Flourescent light in the IND was a rarity - you only saw it in midtown (some mezzanines still cling to the ancient bulbs, especially in Queens). On the IRT, yes, there were Redbirds, but without rust. There were Redbird predecessors like the R17, R21 and R22, and also cars like the R12, R14 and R15 about. Whole trains ran mixed consists. In fact, the entire IRT, with the exception of the Flushing #7 and some solid R17 trains on the #6, was one big mixed bag. The #8 line gave up the last of its Steinway WF Lo-Vs in 1969 and acquired R12s. It gave up for good a few years later. The oldest cars running were the Q-types on the "MJ" (Myrtle Avenue El, which ran until 1969) and some of the last BMT Standards, a couple of which ran on the Culver Shuttle and the "LL" and "M". R32s ruled the "D" train, as well as the "AA" and "B" trains. R10s were still just about the only thing you'd see on the "A", except for the occasional R42 and the even rarer R-4/R-6/R-7 mix (which was what they usually ran on the Aqueduct Express).
By the mid-1970s, the R46 began appearing and the last R-6/R-7/R-9 cars were withdrawn by 1977. Slant R40s moved over to the "A". Deferred maintenance set in. Graffitti was everywhere. The decline had begun. It wasn't until the mid-1980s that things began to improve.
Wayne
Did you ever ride the predecessor of the N-6, the Bee Line with their red fishbowls and old style GMC's? (No Macks, Paul) Their Hempstead Terminal in those days was on a street that doesn't exist now, Little Main Street then they went through a very bumpy dirt lot to Franklyn Av to Hempstead Tnpk. That bumpy lot was a great ride on the rear seat of the old GMC!!
Now the N-6 goes from the Hempstead Terminal. By the way, I remember a Newsday article where the Bee Line had all their buses adjusted to omit a rose bud scented exhast from their pipes!!
P.U.!!
I remember well that fuel additive that Bee Line put in their buses. It didn't smell anything like roses. It was hard to describe.
Steve,
Yonkers Transit used a strange additive too. It had a soap suds like smell to it. Clean smelling. Never came across that again. It was the only operator in the county to use it.
Joe
YES I did. I lived on Meacham Avenue, which was served by the Bee Line N-2, and its Fishbowl, #564. Before that, it was a GMC Old Style, #415. In my commuting days, the N-2 would run express from Stop 20 to Queens, making drop-off stops between City Line and Jamaica. I got off at 179th Street. MSBA took over around 1974 or so. One of the old-style GMC's (#619) was even painted in MSBA Blue/orange livery. It looked hideous. I don't remember the rose scent but I do remember the little bee logo they sported over their doors.
Wayne
Wayne, here's a Bee Line Bus. As you can see its marked "Hempstead", so its on the predecessor route of the N-6.
That was one interesting posting. It makes me regret the fact that I hardly ever rode the subway until the early 1990s.
Then you missed grafitti, R10's, R16's, weekly derailments, hot dog stands in every station ...
As far as I can recall, I only rode one graffitied train, on a day trip from Connecticut sometime in the spring of 1986. That had been my first trip on a subway since the pre-graffiti days in the early 1970's. I think the 1986 ride was on a downtown N or R from Times Square. But one thing that clearly sticks in my mind was how awful the train looked - you felt dirty just from riding on it. I rode on several other trains during that trip, none of which had graffiti. What a difference.
I remember taking the Cross Bronx to High School in the early 80's and watching the grafity covered IRT going over the highway. Some of the trains looked like they have murals that covered 3 cars...
That's quite a contrast compared to the first time I saw an IRT train from the Cross Bronx Expressway on June 4, 1967. Then, it was a clean train of racy red R-29s or R-33s. The first thing I noticed was that there only three sets of doors per car side instead of four, which I had gotten used to seeing on the IND and BMT. I would learn later why this is so. Plus I hadn't seen the BMT standards yet; that would come a month and a half later on July 20.
1986 was about the time that the grafitti problem finally started to get addressed. I was at this time you saw grafitti-free cars actually kept grafitti free with agressive cleaning.
My frist memories of are of early 70's E and F Rust brown cars with wicker seats.. then R44's and a few R 68's on the F when they were new
i remember the R44 on the D line when the D was 4 cars on the weekend and the M was 4 cars with graffiti on the weekdays. I also remember QB trains with the R42 running on them. What was funny was that most of them didnt have the right sign.
QB trains back then were mostly converted M trains. Many had incorrect signage.
As most of you know by now, my love affair with the NY subway began on July 21, 1965. An N train of shiny, spanking new R-32s took us from Brooklyn to 34th St. in Manhattan, where we ascended to the observation deck on the Empire State Building. IIRC, it was a lot cooler on the 86th floor than on street level.
Two years later, we moved to New Jersey and I became immersed in the subway. In 1967, the fare was 20 cents. I rode on the IND for the first time on April 30, and on the IRT on August 9. The R-10s, in their racy teal-and-white paint scheme, still ruled supreme on the A line, while the R-1/9s moaned, groaned, and grunted on the rest of the IND routes. The newest kid on the block, the R-38s, were serving the F line primarily, as well as the E. On the BMT, the R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s were serving the Southern Division while the R-16s and remaining BMT standards were plying the rails on the Eastern Division. T trains still ran during rush hours and daytime hours on Saturdays. On July 20 of that year, there were several firsts: first ride on the R-10s all the way out to East New York, followed by my first ride on the BMT standards on the Canarsie. My first impression? Yechhhh!! The cars were still clean back then, and even the R-10s weren't intolerably loud. You would even find backlit side destination signs on the R-1/9s, a feature which was disappearing rapidly. Sadly, those venerable cars were no longer being cared for by then. This was all before the Chrystie St. connection opened, which resulted in equipment being shifted around considerably. Two constants remained: the BMT standards remained on the Eastern Division while the R-10s stayed put on the A.
That fall, I became a regular Saturday commuter, making a weekly trip by bus from our Pompton Plains home to the Port Authority Bus Terminal, followed by a trip on an A (at my insistance) to 14th St. and on the Canarsie to Lorimer St. It was a ritual which would continue for three years. The R-10s remained a fixture on the A, while on the Canarsie, the BMT standards would give way to relocated R-7s and R-9s, and in 1969, an occasional train of R-42s. During that time, the slant R-40s began to appear on the E and F lines, with no marker lights or destination signs on the bulkheads. In place of all that was a huge, color-coded letter. In January of 1970, the subway fare rose to 30 cents, and a quarter-sized token was introduced.
My visits to the city were curtailed during the early and mid-70s to an occasional trip to Shea Stadium to see the Mets and an all-day excursion on December 27, 1973. I didn't set foot on the subway at all during 1974 and 1975. On July 28, 1976, after a 2 1/2-year absence, I took a brief subway ride once again, first on a B train of R-32s from Rockefeller Center to 59th St., then on an A train of 75-footers to 42nd St. It marked the first time I spotted the newcomers; not sure if they were R-44s or R-46s. I do recall thinking, it's good to be back. By 1977, I found myself in the city once a month or so. My sister enrolled at the Fashion Institute of Technology, and in early 1978 I would go down every few weeks to see her, exploring the IRT division in the process. By this time, the graffiti epidemic had struck, bringing a repulsive appearance to every car in the system. Two other fare increases occurred during the decade: from 30 to 35 cents in 1971, and then 50 cents in 1975. The same token was retained until the fare rose once again to 60 cents in 1980. By then, the R-46s were plagued with cracked trucks, and as a consequence, the B division fleet was being shuffled around in much the same manner as a Chinese fire drill. I left for Colorado in September of 1980, and thus missed the darkest hours of the subway system. It wasn't until October of 1984 that I would return to the city and ride on the subway again.
From 1968 to 1970, if we had time before our bus was scheduled to leave Port Authority, I would take an express joyride up CPW on an A train. There was no better stretch anywhere else. On one occasion, a D train of R-4s pulled into 34th St. - the last prewar D train I ever saw - and I stayed on it until we got to 125th St. What a treat: no headlights, bull and pinion gears wailing away as we whipped past those seven local stops. I wished there had been enough time to take that train all the way to 205th St.; it was with great reluctance that I got off at 125th St.
Gosh, you're all making ME feel old, reading these posts.
I was born and raised in NYC. MY memories go back to when the IND was all R-1/9 cars, except for the "A" train which had the R-10's. Those were my favorites, though we lived a couple blocks off the Grand Concourse and Fordham Road and had to use the "D" train all the time. I never knew car 1575 existed until my high school days, and was quite surprised by a flourescently lit car in the middle of R-1/9 types. And it even SOUNDED like one of them!
The IRT was basically my stomping grounds. We moved to Flatbush, and my dad was a lieutenant with FDNY, so we went to a lot of different fire stations. I remember mostly the Lo-V types, but one time we were on the 42nd Street Shuttle, and somehow I remember something different -- could it have been "Composites"?? I'm talking like around 1955-1956.... I vividly remember one day when we took the IRT from Newkirk Avenue to the Brooklyn Library, and in rolled a shiny, brand new train of R-21's. Every other train was Lo-V's; we were quite lucky to get the same exact R-21 train on the way home. In my younger days on the IRT, I remember the only mixes you'd see were R21's and R22's in the same train; seemed like they kept the R17's separate then. I also remember seeing R17's on the Flushing line when they were still maroon and shiny as our family would drive from Flatbush to Adventurer's amusement park in Flushing.. Yet, I never remembered seeing the R12/14/15 cars there -- until the first time I actually RODE the #7 in 1963. I thought it was like visiting a foreign land, as the cars were "strange looking" with the porthole door windows, and strange shades of dirt compared to the rest of the system, and those "funny loop thingies" on the cab ends. On weekends, friends from school and I would ride all over the IRT just to see where it went. Funny we didn't do much riding on the IND or BMT though, I can't figure why as we were all train buffs.
The BMT as I remember -- never rode it much, but had relatives on East 17th & Beverley Road. We would always go to the Albemarle Road footbridge by the tennis courts over the BMT cut, and watch the trains. I remember plenty of Standards, and the articulated trains with the "1" on the front and always wondered "why" there was a "1" there when the IRT already had a "1". The relatives then moved to Ridgewood, next to the Myrtle elevated, and one day I ventured onto the el, rode the "Q" types (man, were they SLOW!!!) and then went to Broadway and the Jamaica Line. I discovered the "15" train then, and was REALLY baffled about those route numbers. Couldn't find any reference to them anywhere, I was only about 12 years old -- this was 1963. (It only took about twenty more years to learn the complete BMT number system....)
In my high school years (1964-1968) things started really changing. The #7 line got the new WF cars, so all those "odd looking" cars from there came to the rest of the world, the mainline IRT. That's when everything started getting really mixed up. The Budd R32's arrived on the BMT. Then in 1967, the BMT and IND "merged" and all o a sudden, up in the Bronx on the "D" train, there's R32's!! Then the R38's got delivered....the last "new" cars I would see actually brand new, as we moved to California in 1968.
I went back in 1979, saw LOTS of grafitti. In 1980, sw WHITE subway cars. And in 1985, lots of stainless ateel cars made in Japan, and the grafitti seemed to be abating.
Those "funny loop thingies" you saw on the R-15 cab ends were radio antennas.
The BMT number code was never consistently applied to rolling stock, since the majority of their fleet - BMT standards - didn't have end signs. Unless you happened to be riding on a train of Triplexes, oddball units, multisectionals, or R-16s (or if you got lucky, an occasional train of R-1s on loan or R-10s), you wouldn't see anything except route and destination signs on the car sides.
I also remember very well when the R-32s first appeared on the D. They would glide into 34th St as opposed to the R-1/9s, which lumbered, snarled, and hissed. They streaked effortlessly along that CPW express dash, whereas the R-10s thundered and the oldtimers howled - or should I say hauled? - ass.
As for the 42nd St. shuttle, chances are what you saw were the World's Fair Lo-Vs, built in 1938. They were the last IRT-designed cars.
Yeah, I fianlly found out, years after I moved to California, what the loops on the #7 line were all about!! Identra, wasn't that the system name?
The cars I remembered on the 42nd Street Shuttle were definitely NOT the 1938 WF Steinways -- the cars I'm thinking of had end vestibules like the Lo-V's, but somehow were different. I have all the books on NYC subway equipment, and I still can't figure what they were. But they were "different" than the Lo-V's that we rode into Manhattan from Flatbus on.
It depends on when you left(the year) I remember when I left in 58 they were low volts, After that they changed.
It was the mid sixties when I first started riding the subway with my folks. Back then, the three divisions had much more distinctive identities in their rolling stock, stations, signs and even entrances.
Prior to 1968 and the emergence of the R-40s, I pretty much knew:
-An IND train would either be black and groaning, or blue-and-white and extremely noisy. Either way, they would have those pronounced eaves on the roofs. When we rode the IND, it was mostly from Jackson Heights to Manhattan, so we would only see the then-very shiny R-32s along 6th Avenue on the 'D'. Most damning, an IND train never seemed to go outside.
-A BMT train would have the rounded roof, and the 'baloney-colored' seats found on the R-27s that we always changed for from the Flushing line at Queensboro Plaza. Very early on, I recall hearing BMT trains departing the Plaza making the same groaning sounds I associated with the 1-9s. Apparently, there still were Standards going to Astoria well into the sixties.
Trains could be found in a variety of colors: Light blue and white on the R10s and WFs; black on the R1-9s; black or red on the R-27s; and that strange gold on the 32s and 38s. Mainline IRT cars could be black, red or dark green. This variety would end in the seventies, falling victim to graffitti and the MTA's penchant for making everything silver and blue.
Station guide signs also varied by division. The IRT signs were usually white letters on a dark blue or black background, with plenty of wordy information on destinations and lines you could change to further down the line. Well into the eighties, there was a sign on the stairs ascending from street to mezzanine at 111th/Roosevelt that referred to the 2nd Avenue Line. BMT signs were usually white letters on a green background, with the BMT letters often bright red. Similarly descriptive information was found.
Most IND entrances had square globes with the old 'modern' MTA logo. IRT entrances looked very skeletal, with those vertical "SUBWAY" signs. BMT entrances were very ornate, with much detail above the stairwells. Somehow the heavy rivet work reminded me of battleships. Some of these survive along 4th Avenue in Bay Ridge.
Of course, the IRT and BMT stations had the elaborate mosiacs, which we're all delighted to see return either in their original forms, or by careful reproduction.
In the seventies, I was able to ride the trains myself. By then, the new, complex route coloring system was in effect, and many of the distinctive IRT and BMT island platform signs were replaced with the now familiar black letters on white background. I had a ball checking out all the different types of rolling stock to be found on individual lines (up to six on the 'E' and 'F'), but it always seemed that the hotter it was, the fewer trains with air conditioning there would be.
I only was able to ride the Myrtle El once, on a farewell fan trip in October 1969. Maybe some of you were on it? I did the remaining Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue El in one direction only around 1970, and didn't even know it was closing down until it was too late. The Culver shuttle also went out with a whimper.
Yes, there was no air-conditioning, so windows were left open in warm window, making conversation impossible. I don't remember there being any station or connection announcements on any line other than the Flushing.
I remember being terrifed to read how various politicians wanted to replace all els with underground subways. Happily, in the year 2000 we still have many miles of active els in all four boroughs- even Manhattan! (Despite popular misconception, the outside stretch of IRT from Dyckman to 225th is NOT the Bronx!!)
The best part of our subway childhoods? The railfan window, no doubt! Large chunks of the system can no longer be viewed from this window. Sad, but true.
In the 60's the GG was a great dirty, old IND ride with R1(?)(I'm not that up on the numbers), those great steel riveted original IND's. The train had the wicker seats, the great overhead fans, compressor noise and a special IND electric smell that you only get in old cars. I used to ride from 74th down to Lorimer (?) and then catch the old BMT standards to 1st avenue. They were old and smelly with overhead fans too, but made BMT noises with a BMT smell. At some point they were jazzed up on the inside with some weird speckled green paint. The only way to get a sense of it now is, of course, at the Transit Museum. I assume you've been, if not, go.
Ron
Back then the "GG" was running a mixture of R-4, R-6 and R-7 cars. These essentially looked the same, except for minor differences (i.e.the Pullman R-6 had different [GE] fans and slightly longer stems with a more flared socket on the lites by the storm doors).
R16s and a few R40Ms came on in 1970. The next major shifts were to R32s then R10s then back to R32s then to the current six-car R46 fleet.
Wayne
The R-4s had a single large storm door window, as did the R-1s. R-6s and up had a split storm door window. And not all of the R-4s received headlights.
No headlights? isn't that a bit......dangerous?
Not for the R-4s that spent most of their lives underground on the IND. There were only two aboveground stations for the first 22 years the trains operated, and then only the A and D trains needed headlights for the next 14 years after that for the Culver and Rockaway runs. Trains on all the other lines could rely on tunnel lighting.
02/09/2000
Weren't the R1-9's delivered without windshield wipers from the builder? That's wahat I was told.
Bill Newkirk
That is correct. It wasn't until the connection to the Culver line opened in 1954 that windshield wipers were needed.
The lack of headlights didn't make operation dangerous per se. I got a big kick out of it because the tunnel lights alone made the I-beams between the local and express tracks look like silhouettes. Plus you couldn't see the track very easily.
Oh and Chris, did you know the R-16s didn't have headlights originally, either?
That's news to me...
[re no windshield wipers on the R1/9's]
But wouldn't the lack of wipers been a problem in the yards? And what about the 1939 World's Fair line?
What about when trains going from Carroll St to 4th Ave had to go through serious rainstorms? Or what if water leaked into tunnels? Wipers seem to be needed even if there were almost nooutside parts in revenue service on the IND
One can only guess it was felt that wipers weren't originally necessary. If not that, then it should go down as one of the better unanswered questions in NY subway lore.
Yes, I believe so. The men would use tobacco juice or rub a cigar on the glass to get the rainwater to sheet off.
They also had no stirrups (anticlimber steps) or grab irons on the pantograph gates when they were new. Getting inside must have been a challenge!
Actually, they just didn't have "sealed beam" headlights, which is what the cars have today -- and are a LOT brighter.
The older subway cars, up until the R21, were delivered with white lamps up front -- but that's about all they were, were lamps. They didn't light the tunnel up much. When trains were reversed, the red bulb inside the lamp lit up.
Once the R22's were delivered, all the post-war cars were fitted with sealed-beam units; many of the R-4/6/7/9 types also received them. And many of the BMT "Standards" did too -- they were sspended under the floor at the corners of the ends.
I left the city in 1966 with clean green cars-no air conditioning and the new kids on the block were the World's Fair Cars on the 7.
I returned for a vacation in 1978-- what a shock! grafitti all over--outside and inside. Smokers in the trains and no cops. They even ran short trains on the IRT mid-days. They ran mixed trains with multiple shades of red and some a/c cars on the IRT which was still green (under the grafitti). The new kids were the R44/46-cool a/c.
Another vaaction in 1983-- all redbirds, grafitti all gone, short trains gone, no green trains. No new kids this time.
Grafitti gone in 1983? I don't think so. With the R15, R17, R21 and R22 still providing the bulk of the service, grafitti must've been everywhere. 1983 was the year the first "redbird" or overhauled R-types starting showing up on the IRT. They were a clear minority in 1983.
IIRC, the R22 was still running on the #2 as late as 12/84, given the train Bernhard Geotz did his community good by blowing 4 punks away was this type.
I saw plenty of white graffitied cars during my first visit in 1984 since leaving for Colorado four years before, plus some nice, clean R-36 Redbirds on the 7.
I can't believe I read all 78(?) answers to your post. This site is addicting or I need therapy.
Another good thing in the 60's was pulling into 57th street on a BMT standard (4th Ave. local) and switching for one of the expresses. The Sea Beach, Brighton and West End all left from 57th. The cars had the route names on the roll signs, and they sounded kind of exotic to a kid (Sea Beach especially-sounded like a great resort). The expresses were all either standards or triplexes. I was confused by the archaic numbers on the triplexes because they were never listed or explained anywhere. I think Brighton was 1 and Sea Beach 4. West End? no idea. It was a great time in that it was still linked to the old industrial era of the 30's and 40's. Everything was heavy steel, dirty and spit sparks out as it entered the stations.
This site is addicting or I need therapy.
Yes to the first one, probably yes to the second as well. Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was thinking maybe Dr. Hackenbush.
Ron
FOR DUTY AND HUMANITY!
BANG! BANG! Ohhhhhhhh.....they got me!......
wayne :o>
The West End was designated as #3 in the BMT's old number system. That's where the Triplexes ended their careers - prematurely, IMHO.
Hello Christopher:
Well it seems as if you've got no shortage of responses. Good.
I was 14 in 1980, about the time I started journeying about on my own to a large extent. My earliest memories are of the Q's (one ride as a small kid) and plenty of R9s, and the old B&O SIRT, but I think I missed the ABs. I recall the East 105th Street grade crossing, but like you, missed the Third Ave El (I'm from Queens). So I recall brand new R-44s clearly, also some upholstered seats on the IRT and plenty of green and red trains of all sorts.
Well cleanliness and comfort were not as good in the 1970s as today. Air conditioning was rare, except on R-44/46 types where it seemed fairly reliable. The axiflow fans and openable windows were OK, but inadequate. Yes the sensory experience was there - the ozone smell, the noise, etc. - but for the commuter, the experience was like roulette - you never knew what to expect. Graffiti covered everything, including maps and windows, and cars were washed less frequently. There was a real sense of disorder and fear; crime was worse then, too.
Maintenance was terrible; slow orders were everywhere and breakdowns were constant. A good portion of the fleet was out of service (R-44, R-46, R-16) due to maintenance issues (and cracked trucks on the 46's). So there was a terrible car shortage, dropped trips, etc.
So yes there was nostalgia - incandescant stations, maybe faster top speeds and so forth - and the TA was a little friendlier to fans (plenty of fantrips and open houses around the Diamond Jubilee in 1979) but the quality of service was worse and there seemed little hope that it would get better.
Metro-North (then Conrail and Penn Central) was my favorite. No two coaches or locomotives seemed alike, they even ran an S-motor in GCT until 1980 or so. They've done a remarkable job turning that service around in the past 20 years. But I miss the RDC's with the end doors open in the summer!
FYI, when I could, I spent time in Philadelphia in my teen years. I rode all sorts of stuff there - PCCs on long-gone routes like the 50, Red Arrow 80 cars, the old Broad Street cars, the P&W Bullets and Straffords, Reading Terminal - Philly was a true railfan's paradise then, a rolling museum. I miss the GG1s too......
Cherish your memories now, because they will become the nostalgia for the next generation! Take pictures too, but don't get carried away with them. Too expensive.
CONRAD MISEK
Speaking of an "ozone smell" brought back some memories. Back when I was little the subway had a distinct odor which I cannot detect today. It was strongest the closer you got to the tracks. It's like nothing I've ever smelled before or since. I had assumed it was just the regular odor which my brain became accustomed to when I started riding the subway every day back in the mid-80's. I wonder what it was...
Ever see all the people peeing off the platforms onto all that oil and grease on the tracks?
why do NEW YORK SUBWAY CARS """ skreech"" as they come to a stop !!!
i thought only the r 30 and older cars did that !!! and why only in new york city ???
02/05/2000
I don't know the real reason why, maybe the other posters may chime in. I do know that the subway cars today don't SCREEECH, but rather SQUEEL! I guess due to complaints, composite brake shoes were installed with a J-14 (?) relay. You know, you would see it stenciled on the air tank underneath the R-30's warning of using composite shoes because of J-14 relay.
Bill Newkirk
That is because you have never ridden a PATCO Budd car. They SKREEEEEEEEEEECH while going around curves. (1969) It is not only New York
Cut them a little slack. Those are 90o curves, steel rails, steel wheels and a solid steel axle. Unless it's are fitted with radial trucks anything attempting those curves will squeal.
The sound of the L trains going around the curve at Lake and Wabash is music to my ears. Luckily for me, there's an excellent sandwich shop with outdoor seating right there. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
[The sound of the L trains going around the curve at Lake and Wabash is music to my ears. Luckily for me, there's an excellent sandwich shop with outdoor seating right there.]
But David, the Chicago 'L' trains really don't make a skreeching noise when rounding the tight curves on the system. The CTA has devices that coat the wheels with a small deposit of grease each time a train passes. The build up on the rails makes each passing of trucks much quieter than those in many other cities I've visited.
As for brake skreech in Chicago, there is none. All-electric operation here, with no brake shoes to make a skreeching noise. The only noise you will hear on a train making a stop is the one when an operator uses the track brake. Then you feel the effect more than you hear it.
BTW, I know the place you speak of. Margeno's (? sp) is a great place to people and train watch during lunch.
-Jim K.
Chicago
But David, the Chicago 'L' trains really don't make a skreeching noise when rounding the tight curves on the system.
They don't? It must have been my imagination then. Not every train does it, but there are quite a few that do. And when they do, it can be heard from blocks away.
The only noise you will hear on a train making a stop is the one when an operator uses the track brake. Then you feel the effect more than you hear it.?
Yeah, that sounds more like a loud "GRRROOOONK!"
BTW, I know the place you speak of. Margeno's (? sp) is a great place to people and train watch during lunch.
Mangino's, the best sandwiches on God's green earth. As far as I know they have a couple of locations throughout the Loop, but the Lake / Wabash store is the one I usually frequent.
The review I gave Mangino's on my website:
Mangino's Italian Subs
27 East Lake
(312) 630-0005Don't you even think of walking into a Subway or Jimmy John's franchise if you're anywhere near one of several Mangino's locations in the Loop. If mediocre corporate franchises are your thing, do us all a favor and move to Naperville. Otherwise, seek out Mangino's and ye shall be greatly rewarded: Friendly staff who know exactly how to make a kick-ass sub, free refills on the drinks, and decent outdoor seating when weather permits. Undoubtedly the best subs I've ever had, with bread that tastes like real bread and generous portions of fresh ingredients inside. I've been stopping here for lunch almost every Friday for over four years now, with the unfortunate exception of an eight-month period when I wasn't working downtown. During this time it was not uncommon for me to weep around noon on Fridays as I forced myself to trudge off to a nearby Subway for lunch. Gawd, I'm gonna miss this place when I move to Boston.
-- David
Chciago, IL
doesn't that mean thet if the power goes out, you have no brakes?
Batteries in the car provide power to the electric brakes in the case of a loss of main power.
Actually, no. Batteries supply power to the "P" wire, which permits multiple-unit control of the cars. The brakes are pneumatically applied tread brakes (air brakes) of the conventional kind. The braking impulse is propagated electrically from car to car, but the brakes are applied by air pressure from each car's reservoir. If a car "dies" electrically, or if power to the whole train is lost, the brakes can still be applied by a pneumatic impulse, since there is a pressurized "air line" from car to car through the train, as a backup and in case an undesired uncoupling occurs in service. This "straight air" works exactly the way freight train air brakes work.
I think the screeching results from the abandonment of asbestos as a brake lining some years ago. Car and truck brakes, and freight train brakes, all seem noisier to me than they did years ago. As to why Chicago El cars don't screech, they use a truck design similar to the PCC, which does not incorporate any wheel tread braking, as noted by a previous poster to this thread.
Are we still talking about CTA cars? There's no air.
They have dynamic brakes, magnetic attraction track brakes,
and spring-applied, battery-released drum brakes (not tread brakes).
The 600V isn't used for braking at all, and the system fails safe
in that if the battery goes dead or becomes disconnected, the
brakes apply.
Subway car brakes in NYC get screechy when the dynamics have
previously failed in the car. The friction brakes then have to
do all the work and they get hot and glazed.
Bill wasn't talking about going around curves. As the subject line implies, it was BRAKING.
That is because you have never ridden a PATCO Budd car. They SKREEEEEEEEEEECH while going around curves. (Made in 1969) It is not only New York
That is because you have never ridden a PATCO Budd car. (circa 1969) They SKREEEEEEEEEEECH while going around curves. It is not only New York
They didn't squeal half as bad as those Green Machines with the J-16D relays and inshot valves. But they still had the flats (WH).
It seems to me that besides New York, you've never ridden any of the older subway systems.
I assume that the squealing comes from when the brake shoes are worn out and need replacement.
No, it wasn't only the R30's and older.
I think the WORST ones were the Budd R32/R32A cars. They were REALLY bad when they were brand new.
It's the same thing with buses -- the ones at Long Beach Transit in California have the squeakiest brakes I've ever heard. You sit in the downtown library in Long Beach, which is pretty quiet, and all you hear is bus brakes on their RTS's outside.
Does NYC still use wheel tread brakes? Will the 142 and 143's have disk brakes? Will they be air or hydralic?
This is kind of a late post, but another source told me yesterday that the R-142's will probably be testing on the Dyre Avenue Line from Noon to about 4pm. If they are not there, the units will be in the shop or on the road.
02/05/2000
Source,
R-142's to be tested 12noon to 4PM on Dyre?? Any particular weekday, or weekend ?
Bill Newkirk
I'll continue to find out about any tests of the R-142 (A)'s. When I do find out anything I will post it. My colleages tell me they have been testing the cars every day on the road and test track, so for now, be prepared to see them any time on the IRT.
was there ever a R 70 plan to be built ??
also r 50 r80
R contracts aren't just for passenger cars, everything the TA buys (at least train related) gets an R contract number.
R-Contract List
R70 was 20 ballast cars.
R80 was 18 hopper cars.
How come the TA never decided to organize the R numbers so that the IRT division got odd/even numbers, and the B division got the opposite?
Because there are so many units that are for both systems evenly. All purchased work equipment, locomotives, cranes, flat cars, motors, riders all of them are for IRT dimensions. Even in the past, the TA converted mostly Low-V cars to work motors and riders, not the triplexes, standards or R-1/9s. Then they converted the R-12s to 22s to replace them, not the R-10-30 (mostly).
what is a ballast car ? ?? i think i know what a hopper car is its used by freight railroads right ??
A ballast car is an open hopper with special doors in the bottom to more evenly dump out the ballast across the roadbed.
-Hank
CTA may be in for more U.S. funds
-- David
Chicago, IL
I am very happy with this news and commend the CTA for the excellent job they did to fight for the money.
I didn't think they would be able to get the Douglas Blue Line project done when they first came up with the proposal. Atleast a year ago or longer. But after fighting for Illinois First it is nice to see that Mayor Daley actually cares just a little bit about transit to make the trip to D.C. to get the final funding.
The only questions I have are, when will the funding get it's final approval, in the new Country budget, when will that be??
The other question I have is, how long will the Douglas-Renovation project take. I have heard reports on different T.V. stations saying 2 years to 5 or 6 years. This article that is linked to says CTA Pres. Kruesi is quoted as saying just under 2 years. They all say though the work would begin in early 2001. I hope he was quoted correctly, because 6 years seems to long for only around 4 miles of Elevated structure. The last approx. 2 miles in Cicero are at Grade-level which can easily have the track replaced and speed limit bumped to 35 in a couple months.
BJ
I am very happy with this news and commend the CTA for the excellent job they did to fight for the money.
Don't thank the CTA. Thank the fact that veep Al Gore is in the middle of a heated presidential campaign, and he knew that announcing the funding via a speakerphone in front of the TV cameras at a City Hall press conference would be worth at least a few more Chicago votes. But I'm not cynical or anything. :-)
But regardless of the political motivations, I agree that the funding is certainly good news. (I'll be voting for McCain anyway.) If they're planning to have it done in under 2 years, then I would assume they will shut the Douglas Branch down entirely during the course of the reconstruction, as they did with the Green Line a couple years ago. Keeping the line open during reconstruction would probably double the time it takes to do the job.
On the Brown Line, most of the work will involve lengthening the platforms and replacing the station houses while the trains continue to operate, as I believe the elevated structure itself is in reasonably good structural condition.
With the station house replacements, in most cases a completely new station house will be built across the street from the still-functioning existing station house, along with new stairs and elevators. When the new station house is complete, the existing station houses will be demolished and passengers will then enter the station from across the street. I know this at least will be the case at Southport, Paulina, Addison, Irving Park and Montrose, because I worked on the design drawings myself during a brief temp assignment at the architectural firm in charge of the project.
(But don't look for any exciting new designs, even though this is the same architecture firm that designed the incredible International Terminal at O'Hare. The CTA sent us the plans for the Indiana Avenue stop on the Green Line and basically said, "Make them all look like this.")
The exception to this will be at Damen Avenue, because the existing station house apparently has some historical signifigance. In this case, a new station house will be constructed behind the existing one, and the interior of existing one will be gutted and become the lobby of the new station house.
But you didn't hear this from me. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I COMPLETLY DISAGREE WITH THIS!!!!
Do you think the Ravenswood stations really need to be replaced? Give me your honest opinion, David. I went to EVERY SINGLE STATION along that branch, and every station was quaint and charming, and still in perfectly good and usable condition. They are some of the nicest stations on the system. This is one of the biggest wastes of money the CTA has ever come up with. All the Ravenswood stations need is a good cleaning!!!! I don't give a damn about elevator access; I want the old stations saved. If they can add an elevator and extend the platforms of the old stations, that's great. But the line will lose so much of it's character if the charming station houses are torn down.
The new stations that the CTA builds are so goddamn ugly. Please, can we stop this? I've had it with current CTA management. Stupid decisions such as these, and not extending the 63rd St. "L" past Cottage Grove are some of the most insane things that have ever happened in this city.
Indiana is a complete waste of money, as is Garfield. There is barely any ridership at either of those stations; why should they be rebuilt?
Douglas is going to be kept open during the rehab, at least from what I've heard. The buisness owners near the stations were making a stink about the whole branch being closed in the first place; I doubt they'd let the CTA close it for even 2 years.
This has me really upset. The Chicago "L" is a great transit system run by complete idiots. I have to wonder if any of the executives have actually toured the Ravenswood stations and seen in what good condition they are in.
Do you think the Ravenswood stations really need to be replaced? Give me your honest opinion, David.
My honest opinion? I think the entire CTA infrastructure, save for a few execptions, should be leveled to the ground and replaced with a system that actually fulfills the needs of the 21st Century. As it is right now, the CTA is still being dragged, kicking and screaming every step of the way, out of the 19th Century.
I went to EVERY SINGLE STATION along that branch, and every station was quaint and charming, and still in perfectly good and usable condition. They are some of the nicest stations on the system. This is one of the biggest wastes of money the CTA has ever come up with. All the Ravenswood stations need is a good cleaning!!!! I don't give a damn about elevator access; I want the old stations saved. If they can add an elevator and extend the platforms of the old stations, that's great. But the line will lose so much of it's character if the charming station houses are torn down.
Sentimental bleatings about their "character" notwithstanding, the old stations are a filthy and decrepit mess that no longer adequately fulfill their intended functions. As soon as you get your spinal cord severed in a car accident and wake up in a hospital bed with the realization that you will be spending the rest of your life using a wheelchair, come back and tell me to my face that you don't give a damn about elevator access. I might add that adding elevators, aside from being the right thing to do, is also now federal law thanks to ADA.
This city, along with its transit system, is not some museum artifact to be preserved in amber at all costs. This is Chicago, not Pompeii. Show me a city that never changes, and I'll show you a ghost town. Healthy cities are always changing, and life goes on. Eat it, swallow it, deal with it.
The CTA Blue and Brown Lines are both vital parts of the city's infrastructure that are in serious need of some massive capital improvements. Their intended function is not to add "character" to a neighborhood, but to transport people.
The new stations that the CTA builds are so goddamn ugly. Please, can we stop this? I've had it with current CTA management. Stupid decisions such as these, and not extending the 63rd St. "L" past Cottage Grove are some of the most insane things that have ever happened in this city.
I happen to agree about the new stations being ugly as hell. The CTA has a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to showcase the city's incredible architectural talent, but instead they choose to squander it on new stations that look like detention facilities. But at least they're functional. The right thing to do would be to have each station designed by a seperate architecture firm that has the empowerment to build something that is unique, functional and aesthetically pleasing.
Indiana is a complete waste of money, as is Garfield. There is barely any ridership at either of those stations; why should they be rebuilt?
Umm, because they are two stops on an entire line that was being completely rebuilt because it was literally crumbling to the ground?
This has me really upset. The Chicago "L" is a great transit system run by complete idiots. I have to wonder if any of the executives have actually toured the Ravenswood stations and seen in what good condition they are in.
No, I suspect they usually drive or take taxis to work. That's why the entire system has been allowed to deteriorate into the cesspool of filth and squalor that it is now. But at least now they're doing something about it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Are you SERIOUS? I've personally been inside every single Ravenswood branch station, and they are not in any state of horrible disrepair as you seem to think. With a little cleaning, they would be as good as new. I simply cannot believe what you are saying; the "L" used to be a beuitiful system with lots of amenities; now ugly, utiliterian stations are built without even simple amenities like DOORS! Don't you give a damn about history? If the CTA can find a way to put an elevator into an old, beuitiful station without replacing the whole goddamn building that's one thing, but I certainly don't agree with their policy of ripping out an entire station just to add a simple elevator.
I'm still in utter disbelief about what you said. I've talked to other people and they agree with me that the stations are functional, beuitiful, and by no means need to be replaced. All stations on the Ravenswood are in perfectly good condition.
You're missing the point; I never agreed with the Green Line rehab in the first place, and I still don't see the point of replacing Garfield and Indiana even now. Do you realize how little ridership the south side "L" has? And don't forget that Garfield is the only station dating back to the original "L" line in Chicago from 1892. It should be rehabbed and preserved. I was just there today, and it's actually not in bad condition, just needs a little TLC (and an authentic paint job).
You been to http://www.chicago-l.org/ ? Graham and I both have the same opinions about preserving stations.
I never that rapid transit stations have to add character to a neghiborhood. I'm just staying that the old stations serve their purpose very well, and are beuitiful, and they should not be replaced.
Do you know how SHODDY new stations are built today? The Dan Ryan stations are already falling apart after 30 years of operation. The Ravenswood stations could easily last another 100 years with some TLC. Those stations were BUILT TO LAST unlike things nowadays!
I'm thinking about starting a petition. I think most people will agree with me when they think about how ugly the new stations will be, and how nice the current stations are.
Are you SERIOUS?
Yes.
I've personally been inside every single Ravenswood branch station, and they are not in any state of horrible disrepair as you seem to think. With a little cleaning, they would be as good as new.
They were "new" a century ago. This is 2000.
Don't you give a damn about history?
I care very deeply about historic preservation. I have been a proud member of the National Trust for Historic Preservation since 1995. However, we're not talking about the old Penn Station here. We're talking about a small handfull of cramped, rundown transit stations that were never architecturally or historically significant to begin with, and no longer meet today's requirements.
If the CTA can find a way to put an elevator into an old, beuitiful station without replacing the whole goddamn building that's one thing, but I certainly don't agree with their policy of ripping out an entire station just to add a simple elevator.
In the case of the Damen Avenue stop, the original station house will be preserved and restored, with the new station house and elevators constructed as an addition behind it. However, this is a unique situation, and none of the other stations merit this treatment.
There's nothing simple about adding an elevator. For one thing, all these stations have side platforms, which means they require two elevators each. Also, an elevator isn't something that can just be "slipped into" an existing building, especially a building as tiny and cramped as the existing station houses. A typical elevator installation reuires about 100 square feet of space for each shaft. An elevator pit must be dug to a depth of at least 5-6 feet under the shaft, and there needs to be considerable space set aside for a machine room. In the case of hydraulic elevators, a shaft must also be drilled into the ground for the piston. There also must be adequate structural support for the shaft itself. The existing station houses don't even have enough space for their current usage patterns, to say nothing about the addition of two elevators and their required spaces, in addition to the other required mechanical and service spaces planned for the new stations.
You been to http://www.chicago-l.org/ ? Graham and I both have the same opinions about preserving stations.
That's wonderful. So therefore I must also have the same opinions?
I never that rapid transit stations have to add character to a neghiborhood. I'm just staying that the old stations serve their purpose very well, and are beuitiful, and they should not be replaced.
I understand what you're saying, and I respectfully disagree. I've already made my rebuttal in my previous posting, so there is no need for me to rehash it again here.
Do you know how SHODDY new stations are built today? The Dan Ryan stations are already falling apart after 30 years of operation. The Ravenswood stations could easily last another 100 years with some TLC. Those stations were BUILT TO LAST unlike things nowadays!
So, therefore, the Dan Ryan line should not have been built? Shoddy construction isn't limited to new transit stations. In fact, most construction since World War II has been incredibly shoddy compared to what was built in the previous decades. That's an unfortunate fact of life right now, and I'll be the first to agree that it is a disgrace. (In fact, most new buildings built today are deliberately designed to have a life cycle of no more than 25 years, because of how the financing works. Mark my words: All those fancy subdivisions in DuPage County will be slums 30 years from now.) But the argument here should be for better-quality new design and construction, not for preserving anything built before WWII simply for the sake of nostalgia.
I'm thinking about starting a petition. I think most people will agree with me when they think about how ugly the new stations will be, and how nice the current stations are.
You haven't seen the plans for the new stations, so you have no clue how ugly they will be. I have seen the plans. In fact, I drew most of them myself. They aren't as beautiful as they could be, but they are functional, spacious, and not bad looking at all from the street level. Most of them include small retail spaces in the lobbies, a clean, modern appearance that eliminates blind corners for security purposes, and an innovative curved canopy over the sidewalk entrance that both protects pedestrians from falling gunk from the el structure and serves as a visual gateway to the station. The canopy extends into the station itself and provides a unique interior space. The new station houses are also compact enough that they will fit within the existing ROW, without requiring the demolition of any surrounding neighborhood buildings. And yes, the new stations will also have doors. Up on the platforms, the only changes will be lengthened platforms, and the new stairs and elevators. The existing canopies, platforms and railings will be preserved and most likely cleaned up a bit. In other words, don't knock the plans until you've actually seen them.
Good luck on your petition drive. Folks in the neighborhoods surrounding the Brown Line have been clamoring for this project for years.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'll respond to more of your message later, but I will say that Damen is not the only historic station along the line, and it's not unique; all stations along the Ravenswood are nearly identical. I don't know why the CTA chose Damen to preserve.
I still don't agree; I've been in every single station and all it needs is cleaning.
Well, if they all look the same, then perhaps they chose one at random, as only one would need to be preserved.
[Well, if they all look the same, then perhaps they chose one at random, as only one would need to be preserved.]
The thing is that they don't all look the same. The station houses on the surface section of the line is different then the station houses on the elevated portion. The station houses functioned adequately when token agents collected cash fares, but their functionality was reduced with the introduction of the intrusive fare collecting hardware. Don't get me wrong, I think the farecard and its corresponding fare collection equipment is a step forward, but it just doesn't fit into circa 1900's station houses.
Also, there are some very tight clearances on some of the platforms and stairways. In 1900, when the Northwestern was building it line, they must not have envisioned rush hour crowds.
Each station has its own character, as the station was built to conform to the land area available at the time. As a railfan I will miss the old stations, but as a daily rider I will welcome wider and less congested platforms, stairways and station houses.
Rebuilding both lines for service into the 21st century would probably cost only half the money the projects reportedly cost if ADA was not a requirement. But then, ADA is a fact of life in the civilized world today, and accepting federal funds mandates ADA compliance.
-Jim K.
Chicago
Sorry, I still don't agree. Even with the new fare collection equiptment, the stations serve their purpose perfectly. The platforms have always been packed at rush hour; of course when the line was built, the company knew that, but there was just no room to make the platforms bigger.
BTW, the only way the platforms can be extended nowadays is by demolishing buildings, which I guess the CTA will have to do.
Especially the grade level stations; I will chain myself to the bulldozer if they don't save Rockwell and Francisco; those two stations are some of the most pleasent and quaint on the system.
All of the Ravenswood stations should be preserved in some way; not just one. I think most riders will agree with me. Almost all the people I've talked to have.
Expect a big uproar over this; I'm going to make some calls soon, and possibly start a petition.
In my opinion, the funds could be put to much better projects such as extending the Jackson Park "L" to Stony Island again.
-Jacob
[The platforms have always been packed at rush hour; of course when the line was built, the company knew that, but there was just no room to make the platforms bigger.]
Jacob, when the Northwestern was built in 1900, there were cows grazing at Wilson Avenue! The Northwestern didn't have the room to build adequate platforms and station houses? I don't think so, what the Northwestern did was to do things 'on the cheap'. How else do you explain the curves and kinks in the Northside 'L' line?
One thing to keep in mind, when the Northwestern was built, stations were spaced every 1/4 mile, or every two blocks. With twice as many stations, the commuting population was 'spread out' more. The only reason the Wellington station (3000 N) exists today, is that the Belmont (3200 N) wouldn't be able to handle the ensuing crowds.
And don't tell me you would like to see all those quaint 'L' stations, such as Wrightwood, Willow, etc. come back. If we had all those stations it would double the commute time to the Loop.
-Jim K.
Chicago
I never said I wanted the long-gone "L" stations to come back. I just want the current ones preserved, because they serve their purpose perfectly.
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it".
All the stations on the Ravenswood need is a good cleaning.
The curves on the Northside "L" line were to get around the various churches, etc., in the area that were there long before the "L".
Yes, the Northwestern elevated has lots of kinks and
curves, but most of them are simply adjustments to the
property lines. In every quarter section the city and the
developers ran those little half block streets either E-W
or N-S aligning the lots sold. Then some used 20 ft, 25
ft and 30 ft lots.
The big curves along North AV were caused by seeking out
"cheaper" real estate. The curve reduction at North and
Halsted seems as lost as the idea of a crosstown transit
although the CTA still takes aerial surveys of this and
other corridors.
Th so-called Church Curve does take the tracks around a
still-standing church near Division ST.
The Englewood "L" had the property adjustment kinks too,
but except for the one west of Halsted, they're so slight
they're hardly noticed. The two 90 degree curves probably
were seeking cheaper right-of-ways.
The kinks on the south side main between 14th ST and 43rd
ST were mainly the result of the third track being added
to the east side of the existing structure, then to the
other side a block or so down.
By the way, the steelwork beneath the Belmont station
shows the platforms were lengthened long ago to their
present length. But the two block spacings of the
original "L" was because the "L" competed with the
streetcar lines, not because of capacity.
David Harrison
[But the two block spacings of the original "L" was because the "L" competed with the streetcar lines, not because of capacity.]
Yes David, you are correct. Originally, the 'L' did compete with the CSL for passengers.
My point is, with stations only two blocks apart, there would be less congestion at these stations, as the number of passengers would be spread out. When you remove 1/2 the number of stations, the same amount of passengers must 'crowd' onto the remaining stations.
Case in point, if the LaSalle/VanBuren 'L' station is torn down (CTA's wish, but huge objections from the Board of Trade), those riders will have to resort to Qunicy/Wells (already jammed) or the Library stations nearby.
-Jim K.
Chicago
BTW, when Loop stations close or are consolidated, there has NEVER been a case of the new station having increased ridership, or even the combined ridership of the two older stations.
The Loop is the one place in the system where there NEEDS to be lots of stations, besides the fact that the LaSalle/Van Buren station house is in almost perfect condition, and is the only remaining from the Van Buren leg of the Loop (all sides of the Loop had different station house designs).
Removing Loop stations will not speed up operations significantly at all; the major choke point in the Loop is Tower 12, NOT the number of stations.
-Jacob
Funny you should mention Al (Bore) Gore. He's also promising Denver to ante up for the Southeast Corridor light rail line, for which Mr. Bill earmarked 56% of what was originally requested for the initial stage.
This appeared in yesterday's Rocky Mountain News: the Southwest Corridor is slated to open on July 14. (How nice - I may be in Lithuania during that event.) Testing is to begin next month, assuming the rest of the overhead wires are installed by then. Eight of the 14 new LRVs have been delivered.
No, it's not a good idea. Consider this: the Douglas project would probably be $200 million cheaper, and take much less time if all the stations weren't going to be replaced with absolutely huge monstrosities. I've seen the Douglas stations and all they need is a good cleaning. The amount of ridership does not justify replacing all the stations.
The only thing the Douglas needs is structural repair; not all new stations. Some stations need a good cleaning, and that's IT!
Same thing with the Ravenswood; think about it: 2 CARS will be added during rush hour for $300 million. It sounds rediculous just saying it. What, does the CTA think that after it runs 8 cars, everyone will be seated? No, there will still be plenty of standees, and more people will probably start riding because they think there is more capacity.
Two rediculous CTA money-wasters.
-Jacob
No, it's not a good idea. Consider this: the Douglas project would probably be $200 million cheaper, and take much less time if all the stations weren't going to be replaced with absolutely huge monstrosities. I've seen the Douglas stations and all they need is a good cleaning. The amount of ridership does not justify replacing all the stations.
I've seen the Douglas branch stations as well, and most of them look like something from a third-world country. Even the filthiest stations I've seen on the NYC system can't compare to them, with the possible exception of the pre-renovation Franklin Shuttle line. We must have been looking at two different Douglas lines.
The only thing the Douglas needs is structural repair; not all new stations. Some stations need a good cleaning, and that's IT!
Well, given the fact that the structure is what holds the stations up, I'd say it's rather difficult to replace the structure without also replacing the stations. I suppose it could be done, but it would be much more trouble than it's worth.
Same thing with the Ravenswood; think about it: 2 CARS will be added during rush hour for $300 million. It sounds rediculous just saying it. What, does the CTA think that after it runs 8 cars, everyone will be seated? No, there will still be plenty of standees, and more people will probably start riding because they think there is more capacity.
Nobody expects to have a seat on any line of the L during rush hour, and an 8-car Brown Line will be no exception. However, I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation to at least be able to board the first train that shows up at the station, instead of waiting for 2-3 trains to go past before I am able to even squeeze myself onto the third or fourth train.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I've read with great interest the running comentary on this subject. While I agree with some comments, and disagree with others, I'd like to add a few of my own.
Fact - CTA MUST replace all the stations to make them meet ADA requirements. That is the price to be paid today for accepting public funds.
As much as I'll miss the Ravenswood stations, I must ask, try using the stairway at Belmont or Fullerton during the evening rush hours. Two people can't hardly pass on the stairway. As for a ramp, or elevator (ADA), there will have to be room made somewhere on already crowded stations.
Look at Quincy/Wells during the rush hour. I'm very familiar as it is my stop in the Loop. Evanston and Midway trains use the inner Loop track, the Evanston runs on a 6-10 minute headway, and the Midway on a 5-8 minute headway. The platform is absolutely jammed at 5:15 - 5:30 PM. This is an example of the CTA using federal funds to 'maintain' the 1890's design. Ride up the line one stop to Washington/Wells - yes an 'ugly' station, but functional and not as crowded as Quincy/Wells, but board as many people. The only design flaw in this station is CTA should have provided stairways to the fare payment area from Madison Street also. CTA has a habit of not studying what is good for the customer, only what is good for CTA.
The Douglas, I have mixed feelings on. It will be a long shot to predict the volume of ridership after the thing is rebuilt and normal train speeds can again occur. I can't remember the last time I rode on a Douglas train where it actually made it even close to the 55 MPH MAS on CTA. The neighborhoods it serves are not what I would refer to a thriving.
However, the last time I took a ride to 63rd/Ashland (on a Sunday morning), I saw some signs of gentrification in the housing along the old Southside Mainline. While I alway felt it would have been a great idea if in 1969, the Southside 'L' would have been rerouted onto the Dan Ryan using two inner local tracks, and a set of outer express tracks could have been reserved for the Lake-Dan Ryan. 'Express' trains could have served Sox-35th and Garfield, with the locals making stops in between every 1/2 mile. A new ramp could have been constructed to rejoin the A-Englewood and Jackson Park-B branches.
The southside 'L' today will be getting more ridership once the new main Chicago Police station opens at 35th. The gentrifaction from South Loop is moving further south. Who's to say how far south this will extend. So rebuilding the Lake-Southside Lines might have been a good idea afterall. Fact - CTA has reduced rush hour serve from 10-minute headways to 7.5-minute headways to reduce overcrowding.
On the Ravenswood, the CTA wants to extend the platforms for the Ravenswood Line for one reason, and one reason only. They are looking to move the headways from 3 minutes to 4 or 5 - a longer wait for you, the customer. What does this mean, less total trains, and less operator's jobs. Don't be lulled into thinking it will mean more seats going into or out of the Loop at rush hour. Consider that into the early 1960's, the CTA was running Evanston, Ravenswood and North Shore trains via the Northside 'L'. Granted, there were four tracks between Armitage and Institute Place (just north of Chicago/Franklin), but it reduced to two tracks going into the Loop. An old 1963 Evanston Express timetable I have showed service running on a 3-minute headway for about a half hour in the evening. The North Shore ran their evening rush hour every 3-5 minutes 5-5:30 PM. Add to that the numerous Ravenswood trains, I'm sure it was quite a show, and many more trains than today. Keep in mind that the 'L' DID NOT have CAB/ATS signalling in those days.
Two things, try to remember that the CTA will be in control of the money and planning of both of these 'improvements'. It is a VERY large amount of money. The CTA has proven time and again, that they can bungle any project large or small. Also keep in mind that King Richard is going to want to get his hands on this money, by way of CTA and Kruesi, to dole out to his cronies. Small payment for his lobbying efforts.
Stay tuned, remember the Pulaski station, and the promised Morgan/Sagamon station on the Lake, are not yet rebuilt/built - ran out of money I think the excuse was.
Jim K.
Chicago
I totally agree with most of what you are saying. The CTA was run much better in the 60s and 70s, and the quality of service today is still nowhere near what it used to be. Consider this: the Evanston Express never runs more frequently than every 7 minutes (and at some times it only runs every 14); the trains are packed during rush hour.
As to ADA: The CTA is NOT required to make stations ADA complient unless they are completely renovating or replacing the station. How are Belmont and Fullerton going to become ADA complient without demolishing buildings? There is barely room for the current platforms, and they have to be widened for elevators.
Well, Pilsen and Little Village along the Douglas are certainly thriving.
I still cannot figure out David's claim about the Ravenswood stations crumbling to the ground; do you think so? I just used Irving Park 2 hours ago, and it's a quaint, beuitiful station that just needs a little TLC.
New does not equal better. Sometimes old stations are better than new ones. Most of the time, actually.
Washington/Wells should never have been built; it does NOT have the combined ridership of the Madison/Wells and Randolph/Wells stations; many people just started driving because the stations were no longer convinent to where they worked. I hope the CTA realizes their mistake before the build the "superstation" on the east side of the Loop.
The Dan Ryan "L" shouldn't have been built; the Southside "L" should have been rehabbed and extended south in the 60s. The Dan Ryan really drained resources from the Englewood-Jackson Park.
Another smart move the CTA should make is to extend the Evanston platforms and through-route the Howard to Linden except when the Evanston Express is running. The Evanston Shuttle is really an abomination.
So, want to help hand out leaflets, Jim? I'm going to try to print something up to oppose the Ravenswood expansion (including a petition).
So, want to help hand out leaflets, Jim? I'm going to try to print something up to oppose the Ravenswood expansion (including a petition).
While you're at it, you should print some flyers and circulate some petitions on the Upper East Side of NYC to oppose the construction of the Second Avenue Subway, because I'm sure most people would agree that the Lexington Avenue line still serves its function perfectly.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[So, want to help hand out leaflets, Jim? I'm going to try to print something up to oppose the Ravenswood expansion (including a petition).
While you're at it, you should print some flyers and circulate some petitions on the Upper East Side of NYC to oppose the construction of the Second Avenue Subway, because I'm sure most people would agree that the Lexington Avenue line still serves its function perfectly.]
I am not opposed to rebuilding the CTA rail system. What is needed is a well equipped functioning rail system fed by feeder bus routes, instead of the system of competing forms of bus and trains both headed towards the Loop.
What I'd like the CTA to do is to decide what stations REALLY need COMPLETE rebuilding. This would be measured by criteria such as ridership, location, and available expansion. Those should be given the complete rebuilding job. Most others could just use extended platforms. The problem with this is that Federal Transit Money (with a capital M) pretty much dictates 'new' or start-up systems get the bulk of the wealth. How King Richard and company got the Douglas money as 'start up' money is beyond me and some of my railfan friends. It leads you to believe that Douglas will be a tear down and build back up project.
Jacob, you are correct in what you are saying about the Irving Park station. I was just through there last week, and probably most of the daily riders don't mind using it. It is safe, functioning, and clean station. But look at a station like Diversey, where the platform is in the 'kink' for pitty sake. It is dangerously narrow at the north end. That station platform should be moved four car lengths south, and an auxiliary entrance/exit stairway from both platforms should be installed on the southside of Diversey for passengers who want to use the #76 bus line.
CTA, in its infinite wisdom closed down the North & Halsted station on between Armitage and Sedgwick stations in 1949. I know that the neighborhood that thrives today was not so when they tore it down. Should there be one in that vicinity today, you bet. What does this mean? Decisions and changes that took place fifty years ago don't always make sense today.
As for the Belmont and Fullerton stations, I don't know what CTA has in mind for making them more customer friendly and expansive. They are really 'hemmed in' at both locations. Remember that CTA had a chance to enlarge and modernize Fullerton before the buildings on the westside of the station were built. Go figure. It would be prohibitively expensive to do anything there today.
I can not support your claim that the Dan Ryan should never been built. I'm not a proponent of expressway median rail lines, but we have three in Chicago, and they aren't going away. The expressway median transit line is isolated from the customers it's trying to lore, however, the Dan Ryan carries as many, if not more, riders than the O'Hare.
One last note, service, I expect that while we will probably never see 2-minute headways in the State Street Subway again (pity), I feel that CTA under Frank Kruesi's rein has made an effort. I personally would like to see trains running on a decent 3-5 minute headway during the morning and evening rush.
Trains, stations and buses are cleaner, some of the operating personnel are friendlier, and CTA has added more trains and buses to some over-taxed lines (Blue, Brown, Green, and Red). While the CTA has a long way to go, and we probably never get back to the 1960/70's standard of service, there has been improvements since the dark days of 1996-97.
Nothing is more constant than change itself.
-Jim K.
Chicago
About Diversey: It was obviously made that thin at the ends because it had to be. Is there room to widen the platform at that location nowadays? I never thought it was dangerously narrow. But that's all simple platform stuff; the Diversey station house is beuitiful and serves it's purpose well.
There were many "other side of the street" exits on the embankment portion of the North Side Main. Most have been closed because of security reasons. Also, how many people want to transfer to the Diversey bus going east? It's very close to the end of it's run at that point. I'd only build an extra exit if the number of bus riders going that way was going to be very large.
I'm concerned about stations such as Sedgwick and Chicago/Franklin which were mainline stations on the old Northwestern elevated; those stations have even more beuitiful detailing than the Ravenswood stations and need to be preserved.
[There were many "other side of the street" exits on the embankment portion of the North Side Main. Most have been closed because of security reasons. Also, how many people want to transfer to the Diversey bus going east? It's very close to the end of it's run at that point. I'd only build an extra exit if the number of bus riders going that way was going to be very large.]
There are actually people who live at or near Sheridan Road who want a bus ride eastbound. It happens to be five blocks from the 'L' and Sheridan Road - over 1/2 mile. But, let us not forget those who are coming eastbound in the morning who want to transfer to the 'L'. Wouldn't an entrance on the southside of the street, as the one at Wilson, enable the passengers to get to the platform without crossing the busy street.
Jacob, it is becoming apparent to me that you just don't want to see anything change - in particular the transit in Chicago. I expect you'd go back to riding the 6000's, cold and drafty in the winter and hot and sticky in the summer, rather than endure the air-conditioned 2600 & 3200 fleets. I enjoyed those cars too, and still do, except I journey to Union, IL to ride them. They are in the museum where they belong.
I agree that Sedgwick is a classic old 'L' station. It, along with Chicago/Franklin has been gaining riders over the years. But as I said before, unless the buildings are protected under some preservation act, they very well may come down.
Let's face it. I'd like to be able to walk out to Broadway & Barry to board a #36 Broadway-State PCC, but could the streetcars have survived in today's traffic congestion competition for space on the street.
Change, whether welcomed or embraced by us, will always be with us.
-Jim K.
Chicago
It's not that I don't want to see anything change. I want to see more runs added, I want the Douglas "L" structure to be rehabbed, and I want new "L" extensions. I also want all the slow zones througout the system to be removed, and all of the historic "L" stations to be cleaned.
Yes, it would be nice if some of the 6000s still ran. But the newer cars are nice too, although I hate the new full-width cabs.
-Jacob
[Yes, it would be nice if some of the 6000s still ran. But the newer cars are nice too, although I hate the new full-width cabs.]
One thing we can agree on - I too dislike the full-width cabs. The greatest railfan seat created is sorely missed by this fan!
- Jim K
Chicago
Do you realize that February 16 will mark the 43rd anniversary of the end of streetcar service on the Broadway portion of the #36 route? That was the next-to-last streetcar route to survive. I still lament that I'm too young to remember streetcars in Chicago.
When was the last time you tried to get on a southbound #4 train at 86th Street at 8:10AM? Give us a break. Lexington Avenue service is crush-loaded to dangerous levels and is even packed to the rafters in mid-day and late into the evening.
Wayne
He was being sarcastic in order to prove a point.
Me, sarcastic? Never!
-- David
Chicago, IL
As Mr. Columbus points out, my posting was intended as sarcasm in order to prove my point.
Whenever I make a sarcastic posting on SubTalk again, I'll be sure to use one of my Roman numeral IRT rollsign banners. That way, people will know that my words are intended to be sarcastic. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I don't want to get involved in this arguement, but here is my perspective:
The Douglas L Stations are falling down and filthy. They couldn't be cleaned with the most power equipment in the world to make them look good with the exception of Polk and 18th which were rebuilt in the 80's.
I happen to think that stations like Washington/Wells and State/Vanburen are cool and Belmont and Fullerton are kinda crappy.
I am a fan of a wide concrete platform with tacticle edging, blue, and a nice station house. Addsion on the Red Line is an excellent example. It makes you feel safe in it because it is new and bright, but still shows the neighborhood charm with the drawings of the Cubs posted in the station. The newsstand also adds to the charm.
Quincy/Wells is nice to keep for just one station on the entire system, but other wise the other stations should be replaced like Addison or State/Van Buren. As far as Subway Stations, I'm a fan of Belmont and Logan Square on the Blue Line to Ohare. You get that open feeling like you aren't undergroud.
I suppose that Jacob, you also are regretting the renovation of Howard Street and would rather see that 100 year old crappy facility stay in place!
The CTA is out to make stations attract riders and make them feel safe. Most riders could give a crap about the stations history as lond as they feel safe in the station and it has adequate facilites.
Bottom Line, let the Douglas branch completely be taken down and rebuilt properly. The stations can be completely demolished also. Same thing with the Ravenswood stations.
My favorite Stations are Forest Park and Davis St. Yes newer stations that aren't falling down and can accomodate passengers and crowds.
BJ
Sorry, I just can't agree with you. I live 3 blocks away from Howard and use it every day, and I agree that the station house is smelly and dirty, to a certain extent. However, it is NOTHING simple CLEANING can't fix. There is no structural problem with that station house. And Howard is not 100 years old; it was built in 1923 along with the rest of the embankment stations on the North Side Main, although it was altered with crappy looking tile in the 50s and 60s
You think the new, crappy, utiliterian "L" stations are nice? Give me a goddamn break. Belmont still has a beuitful, albeit cramped station house.
Have you been to EVERY SINGLE Douglas station house? All they need is cleaning. The amount of ridership on that branch does not justify replacing every station. Sure, the structure needs to be repaired, but the stations serve their purpose, and are some of the most beuitiful "L" stations on the system. I absolutely love the California station house, and will chain myself to a bulldozer if they try to tear it down.
[You think the new, crappy, utiliterian "L" stations are nice? Give me a goddamn break. Belmont still has a beuitful, albeit cramped station house.]
Please, let us try to refrain from taking the Lord's name in this context.
[I absolutely love the California station house, and will chain myself to a bulldozer if they try to tear it down.]
Secondly, the local street punks will probably get you before the bulldozer does.
-Jim K.
Chicago
As to ADA: The CTA is NOT required to make stations ADA complient unless they are completely renovating or replacing the station.
Which is exactly what they plan on doing.
How are Belmont and Fullerton going to become ADA complient without demolishing buildings? There is barely room for the current platforms, and they have to be widened for elevators.
I'm not sure about Belmont, but according to the January 27th edition of the North Loop News, DePaul University will probably be demolishing its buildings to the east of the station. (They have plans to build an additional parking garage and/or dorm building on the site now occupied by the existing buildings and the soccer field.)
The Fullerton station will then be widened about 30 feet to the east to accomidate a 24-foot-wide inbound platform and a 20-foot-wide outbound platform, each fully ADA-compliant with an elevator. A large shelter structure will extend over both platforms. This is part of a larger master plan to make the Fullerton stop a major community hub for the neighborhood. There is even consideration to changing the station's name from Fullerton to "Lincoln Park."
-- David
Chicago, IL
Will Fullerton be a seperate project or part of the Ravenswood??
I have to say that Belmont and Fullerton are lucky for the neighborhoods that they are in. If they were in a bad neighborhood, they would attract criminals.
My personal favorite would be to see all 3200 series running on the entire system with 8 car trains lenghts and conductors. Also have all rail lines run on weekends and overnight. Including the Evanston Express run 24-7. Also adequate Express Service on the Red and Blue Lines.
That will never happen however, so I can only hope current facilities will be renovated and brought up to par and maybe some architectural feeling will be added to some stations. I think that Library, State/Van Buren has more character then any old station.
BJ
Library certainly does not have more character than stations such as Irving Park (Ravenswood) and the embankment stations on the North Side Main. The mezannine in Library is plain and utiliterian, contrary to the nice station houses (with heat) at LaSalle/Van Buren, one station to the west.
Rather than an all-3200 series train, I'd love to see an all-2200 series train on the O'Hare; those trains are the best looking in the fleet, and the 2nd best looking behind the 6000s.
I don't understand your statement about Belmont and Fullerton; I'd say that small station houses are safer than large ones, and easier for the station attendant to watch over; i.e. Garfield, South Side Main, which I've used.
-Jacob
Will Fullerton be a seperate project or part of the Ravenswood??
Pretty sure it's a seperate project. Fullerton is already long enough to handle 8-car trains, but it is still grossly undersized given the passenger load it must handle. They've been planning to rebuild this station for years, and it needs it.
My personal favorite would be to see all 3200 series running on the entire system with 8 car trains lenghts and conductors. Also have all rail lines run on weekends and overnight. Including the Evanston Express run 24-7. Also adequate Express Service on the Red and Blue Lines.
My advice: Move to New York. :-)
That will never happen however, so I can only hope current facilities will be renovated and brought up to par and maybe some architectural feeling will be added to some stations. I think that Library, State/Van Buren has more character then any old station.
I agree. The State/Van Buren stop has a nice feel to it, although architecturally a bit backwards-looking for my tastes. But that's just me. My personal favorite is the O'Hare stop on the Blue Line designed by Helmut Jahn, although this station is obviously a unique situation. The Midway Airport station on the Orange Line is also rather nice.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[My personal favorite would be to see all 3200 series running on the entire system with 8 car trains lenghts and conductors.]
Come on BJ, don't you like a little variety in your 'L' consists?
I, for one, like consistancy (i.e. solid 2200's - an ADA no-no, solid 2400's, etc).
Last year during The Blizzard, yes I was out riding the lines, there were solid consists of 3200's running on the Howard-Dan Ryan - about five trains worth (forty cars 'borrowed' from the Midway and Ravenswood lines).
The next order of CTA rail transit cars, 142 to replace a like number of 2200's, will hopefully be very much like the 3200's - inside and out. If Alstom lands the contract, they probably will be 3200 lookalikes. Remember, Alstom has taken over the old MK operation.
I guess that would be 3500 series, or 3501 - 3642. And where do you think those cars will go? I'd guess the Ravenswood, with the older 3200's going either to the Blue, or to the Red with the 2600 cast offs from the Red migrating to the Blue Line. Why Ravenswood? That number of cars would be just right for the line's requirements. Newest equipment goes to those riders who are viewed (by da mayor and his friends at the Mart) as the most politically potent.
I'm not sayiing that I agree, but I would make a little wager that is how things pan out.
-Jim K.
Chicago
Why Ravenswood? That number of cars would be just right for the line's requirements. Newest equipment goes to those riders who are viewed (by da mayor and his friends at the Mart) as the most politically potent.
I'm not sayiing that I agree, but I would make a little wager that is how things pan out.
I wouldn't doubt it for a second. Just take a look at where all those nice low-floor New Flyer busses are running: #151 Sheridan, #22 Clark, and #11 Lincoln. Welcome to Barter Town.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[I wouldn't doubt it for a second. Just take a look at where all those nice low-floor New Flyer busses are running: #151 Sheridan, #22 Clark, and #11 Lincoln.]
Gee, I thought it was because of all the senior citizens along those routes. I refer to the 5800's as the senior citizen buses anyway.
-Jim K.
Chicago
I, for one, like consistancy (i.e. solid 2200's - an ADA no-no, solid 2400's, etc).
I agree. Nothing grates my finer aesthetic sensibilities than seeing an otherwise beautiful consist of 2200's on the Blue Line interrupted by a pair of 2600's. Like fingernails on a chalkboard. As much as I am in favor of full ADA compliance throughout the system, I'd love to see just one entire 8-car train of 2200's before I move to Boston.
On a related topic, I was doing some railfanning Sunday evening, and noticed a couple of 6-car trains on the Red Line composed entirely of the rebuilt 2600's. I even had the opportunity to ride such a train home that evening. They're not nearly as visually pleasing as the 2200's or the 3200's, but I was blown away by how smooth and quiet they ride.
Coming out of the tunnel at Willow and before making it onto the steel portion of the elevated structure at Armitage, I swear the only sound was the rush of the wind, and the ride was as smooth as silk. Surely this couldn't be the CTA Red Line I was riding! As vocal a critic of the CTA as I am, I must give credit where credit is due. Hats off to a job well done... Hopefully the rest of the 2600's will soon follow suit.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Keep in mind that railcars shouldn't need a rehab after only 15 years of service; it was mostly deferred maintence by the CTA that caused this enormously expensive rehab to take place. The 6000s never needed to be rehabbed in their almost 50 years of service, because they were very well maintained in the early years (although in the later years of the 6000s, the CTA slacked off on maintence).
The freshly rehabbed 2600s do have a smooth ride, but I question the quality of the rehab; some of the cars that were rehabbed only a few months ago already have a rocky ride again, and I just saw a defective train going southbound at Fullerton that consisted purely of rehabbed 2600s; they had to reroute North-South trains on to the outer (Ravenswood) tracks to get around that train.
Keep in mind that the 2200s are the most reliable in the fleet and could serve for at least another 15 years; the CTA just has it in it's head that every door on a train has to be ADA complient, which is not actually required by law.
Just more wasteful spending by the CTA...
As I've said before, State/Van Buren has a nice platform area, but the mezannine is very plain and utiliterian, just like Washington/Wells.
Stations nowadays are built with ZERO amenities. It wasn't too long ago that stations had doors, bathrooms, drinking fountains, and heat in an enclosed station house. That's why I want to preserve the old stations; they're not open and ugly like the new ones the CTA builds.
Vote for the ugliest station on the whole system either goes to Western or Kimball/Lawerence on the Ravenswood.
-Jacob
I just found out that a 12 year old girl got her foot stuck in the door of a redbird number 4 train, and got dragged 100 feet. The train was jammed pack. If I'm correct, this is the 3rd time in a period of 30 days that someone had gotten stuck in a door, and then has been dragged. The girl's lucky she didn't die or experience major injuries.
What's causing all these incidents? Is it the carelessness of the conductors? or could it be that the trains are too crowded? Anyway, I think a second avenue subway might have prevented this. Whatever
Clark Palicka
TrAnSiTiNfO
That is odd...
A motorman isn't supposed to start the train until the doors are closed (a light in the motorman's compartment indicates this).
What a stupid motorman...
It could be a problem with the train. Sometimes a narrow thing such as a foot might not be enough to stop the light from appearing in the cab.
Sometimes a narrow thing such as a foot might not be enough to stop the light from appearing in the cab.
Or, say, the strap of a violin case.
Don't forget the story of violin protege Rachel Barton, who was exiting a Metra train a few years ago when the doors closed on the strap of her violin case, which was slung over her shoulder.
The train proceeded out of the station, dragging her under its wheels for about 250 feet until somebody heard her screams and stopped the train. She ended up losing part of her left leg and most of her right foot, and doctors spent about 2 years rebuilding what was left of her mangled right leg.
As you can imagine, her lawyers had a field day with Metra, even though there is strong evidence that she realized that she was about to miss her stop and rushed to exit the train as the doors were closing.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Don't blame the T/O he won't receive indication until the C/R receives his and turns his key, thus passing the indication to the T/O as well as giving power to the train.
02/05/2000
I heard on Channel 4 that it was on the #4. If it was a Redbird, this kind of this would turn public opinion against the Redbirds clammoring for their replacement.
Bill Newkirk
Don't blame unless you know facts and understand how things work.
It is extremely unlikely that the crew moved the train without
indication. To use the bypass in this situation the motorman
is required to notify control center.
The most likely scenario is that the door in question was
slightly out of adjustment (the so-called "S-wire" check)
and the presence of a small foot did not cause a loss of
indication. The station in question is curved in such a way
that a passenger being dragged in the front section would be
invisible to the conductor while pulling out of a packed
rush-hour platform.
Not to blame the victim, but why was her foot in the door?
All too often, people use their bags, their arms, their legs, or even their KIDS as doorstops, because every train is the last train that will ever move. (Where are the childrens-rights people when you need them?)
She couldn't fit on the train and she stepped off to wait
for the next one.
She was trying to hold open the doors... So technically it's her fault, not the systems. I saw it on the news last night- I beleive it was a R62a, not any redbird.
According to today's Daily News (which headlined the story on page one), she tried to board the train and then realized there was not enough room for her and her friend, so she tried to get back to the platform, at which point the door closed with her foot still inside. She wasn't trying to hold the doors.
The train was a #6, but I still don't know if it was a redbird or an R-62a. Pictures of both have been shown on news broadcasts. Anyone know for sure?
If it was a Redbird there is a 3 inch allowace between the doors so that people may remove something which is stuck in the doors. In other words the doors will close and lock and the c/r will get indication even if the doors are 3 inches apart.
Also if it happened SB. with that nasty curve at 14th it is not suprising even with the cctv's.
Today I had a Problem at Grand Central. My Conductor Reported that there was a complaint about a door open. So a TSS responded to the train and found the door was open 3 to 4 Inches. So they cut out the door but it was scary to know how long the problem was Like that. Both me and Conductor had Indication. My Train was also a Redbird operating motor No.8579.
Isn't as bad as what has happened in Chicago a year ago several times. One time, at Grand/State in the subway someone realized they missed their stop just as the doors closed and the train started pulling out, so they pulled the door release (the "cherry"), and the train stopped because he opened the door. So, the conductor came back and reset the door after he exited. At the next stop, Chicago/State, the train stopped as normal, but when the conductor shut the doors, every door closed except that one; someone was getting on the train at the time, and the train started pulling out of the station with the door wide open, so the person was thrown back, and the door remained open until the next station.
Another time, for some reason the door interlocking didn't work, and a door remained open between the tight curves on the elevated between Fullerton and Belmont.
I can't imagine how these things happen, since all Chicago cars supposedly have a fail-safe door interlocking system.
I remember about 20 years ago a dentist was killed on the LIRR at Huntington. He had helped his college bound son with his luggage onto the train. (It was a terminal stop) As he was getting off his foot got caught in the door (it was an M-1) with the rest of his body on the platform. He got dragged to the end of the platform and was electrocuted by the third rail.
next time you get that car again check the door of the car you had with the problem. it is quite possible that nothing was fixed. email me since i wont be around next few weeks ( i have army duty)
Last year I had to help a TSS measure the gaps between the doors on some redbirds in 239 yard after a couple of draggings and he told me about the 3 inch allowable gap. Some of the doors had gaps up 6 inches.
Looks like there are a lot of potential culprits here:
1. Excessive door gaps on the redbird.
2. Crowding, due to the lack of a Second Avenue Subway.
3. The need for a conductor on the platform in a curved station.
4. Passenger behavior.
I do get a little nervous with my little girls in the subway. Trying to get everyone in a crowded car, with no one left on the platform or caught in the door, is a concern.
Of course, every now and then, you find one out of spec -- like the one I had that gave me indication woith an IMMENSE person standing in the door.
A bit of a correction if you don't mind. Regardless of contract, ther is no such thing as a 3" allowance in the doors. All NYCT doors MUST close within approximately 1/8th " in order to clear the 'Obstruction Sensing Switch on the door panel. In other words, if the sleeve of a coat were caught between two closing door panels, one or both obstruction switches should not clear. Once the doors are fully closed and locked, there is an approximately 1 1/2" 'pushback' feature on each door panel (that's where your 3" comes in). However, the pushback should not have come into play from the way this incident has been portrayed.
I don't want to pre-judge this incident based on media reports, however, if it occurred as portrayed in the media so far, this would seem to be a dual failure. First, if the train operator got indication and was able to take power, there would have had to be a failure in the door obstruction system in the involved car. This could be due to any number of things including cut rubber due to vandalism. The second failure would be the C/Rs failure to observe his/her platform (although the station is curved). In any event, the train was immediately held for examination by "System Safety". When they are done, we'll know for sure what went wrong.
The Redbirds were never upgraded with the door obstruction sensing switch.
The Train in quesion was a Uptown No.4 Train and it was a Redbird. I was coming Southbound at 23 Street when this all happened. When I pulled into 14 Street I seen the train. This really messed up service. There where 4 Uptown Express trains stuck behind. Also there was a train stuck over the switch South of 14 Street so all Uptown trains ran Local from Brooklyn Bridge to Grand Central for a full hour. At first Control Ordered the train to be discharged and the T/O was going to take the train light to the Yard. However the Police detained the T/O so the TSS had to move the train.
The Train involed was the 15:34 Utica No.4 to Woodlawn.
Out of curiousity, do you know the consist and position of the car involved? Are there camera at the boards as well? To my knowledge the older cars were not modified with the tongue and groove door rubbers therefore allowing the door to close with further clearance than the newer cars modified for OPTO service. Maybe Steve can answer the inquiring minds here.
Yes there are Camera's at the Conductors Board on TK 3. Also from what I seen there was about a car or two out of the station. At the time when I passed the train going south all a Knew was that the train Was BIE. They first mentioned a drag when I was at Bleeker Street. As for where the drag happened all I can say is what was said in the Post which was it happened in the 8 car which sounds about right.
The jury is still out on this one so let us not jump to blaming the Crew or the Girl. If the rules were followed C/O and T/O both had their indication and the platform was too crowded for the C/O to see the girl (pure guess) for the car lenghts he is supposed to be watching out the window. The emergancy cord WORKED, isn't it in the car for the exact reason?? (Though some reports in papers say a bystander pulled the girl out of the door before BIE)
One paper said it was a Redbird, does that mean the car didn't have that new door sensing system that could "detect a credit card" as the TA put it??
Papers said the crew did go for the mandatory Drug testing.
Don't forget this is 14th st, though not on the downtown heavy curve side but this is a tight station.
14st on the Lex is a really scary station conductors. There is a really sharp curve and the c/r may not be able to see the girl. This is true if she is near the back. There are monitors, I think but it may be enough. I think the 3 inch gap tolarence is too much. Can this be change on the redbirds?
Once on the Lex express, I saw the door on my car ( a redbird)
slide open about two inches. Nothing happened. I don't think that the c/r or motorman lost indication.
There are closed circut TV monitors at the conductor's position at the downtown Union Sq. platform which are supposed to give the conductor a view of the entire platform, including the parts blocked from direct visual observation. The question is, did he even bother to look? Were they working at the time of this incident?
What good are monitors once the train starts moving?
Maybe it was the same conductor I had last June who could not pronounce 86. 125th, etc Sts in English
Please, please, PLEASE don't turn an unfortunate incident such as this into an attack on immigrants.
Everyone else who has posted on this topic has sought to get the facts straight and come up with a substantive explanation for what happpened, while still maintaining compassion for all involved.
Why is he bashing immigrants?
If the conductor couldn't announce properly, he shouldn't have been a conductor. Maybe they should have kept him on the list so he could conduct only R-142s when they come out.
As opposed to the New York Philharmonic.-)
They would have showed a girl with her foot suck in the door and the train wouldn't have moved.
With all due respect, have you ever looked at those monitors?
Assuming there were monitors at union sq n/b local (I'm not
sure if there are), they would have shown a fuzzy picture of
a crowded platform with a bunch of people very close to the
edge, waiting for the next train.
I am told by an unnamed source that the incident car, 9268, in the consist as the second north car, was NOT visible from the monitor as the train sat in the station, also there is no camera aimed at that position of the train. I was also told that it was the center panels of that car so figure it to be the fifth set of doors from the ten car marker. Those redbird panels have not been modified with the long tongue and groove door rubbers so perhaps it will be another lawsuit as well as an expedited knock on the door for Bombadier and Kawasaki.
MANAGEMENT WANTS TO KILL THE PASSENGERS TO JUSTIFY GOVT FUNDING. SEE MY EARLIER POSTS FOR DOCUMENTATION ON THIS
MR. JOHNSON, YOU ARE AN ASSHOLE
AMEN! Someone with brains speaks.
No insults please.
Compliments! Glad someone finally had the "cajones" to say so.
And if he keeps it up, I'll say alot more. People, speak up. Don't let an ASSHOLE like him keep you all quiet.
Please don't invoke the name of the Electric Railroaders' Association in your handle, especially if you are going to insult someone.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association
Mr Ross,
You didn't say anything a few days ago when someone posted under the name, GAY ERA MEMBER. I would think that is much more offensive. I tell the truth. I am an ERA member. What's wrong with that????
A. I didn't see the posting by "GAY ERA MEMBER." If I had, I would have said something.
B. Someone posting here as "ERA MEMBER" is implying, whether intentionally or otherwise, that the ERA approves of/agrees with/supports whatever is posted by that person.
Again, please stop posting as "ERA MEMBER."
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
please e-mail Peggy@nycsubway.org off site to discuss some old NYDERA (1964-1965) articles . Peggy would like to adapt the material on Lines not built/ partially used for the station-by-station pages on this site. NYDERA and the author of the articles would be listed as the source.
DAVE: Sorry for the private message.No e-mail was given.
new service to staten island and extention of the midtown line to Grand Central from 33 st.2] A line to Brooklyn from the W.T.C Terminal and line across Manhattan at Astor Place to the East River with provisions for a Brookyn/Queens branch.
new service to staten island and extention of the midtown line to Grand Central from 33 st.2] A line to Brooklyn from the W.T.C Terminal and line across Manhattan at Astor Place to the East River with provisions for a Brookyn/Queens branch.
Is this going to happen? And if it does, when will it be completed?
Clark Palicka
TrAnSiTiNfO
Im asking what do you guys think about it? If and could the PA[within the TA's good graces]build these lines.
There was once a plan to extend the H&M (now PATH) from 33 St. to Grand Central, but that was before the 6th Ave. IND was built. How could it be done now, given the layout of the 33rd St. terminal (and the recently rebuilt 34th St. subway station it connects to)? It can't be. Anyway, why would building such lines be the responsibility of the Port Authority? They would have zero interest in building any such things as you describe, and it really isn't their place to do it.
Any new subway construction is the province of the MTA, and what they can build is very limited. It looks like the 2nd Ave. "stubway" from 63rd St. to 125th St. really will be built; that will be it as far as new subway lines go for the first quarter of the 21st century (2001-2025), other than completing the connection from Queensbridge to the Queens Blvd. line.
The first sections that will built[I suppose]from the 63st jucntion to 92st, to join the sections already built[99 to 105 st and 110 to 120 st]. We probly won't see the new line until 2010 or latter,andthe full route untill 2020-25.
Let me say something that both Assemblyman Silver and the Straphangers Campaign have purposely neglected, or even lied about, regarding the proposed Upper Second Avenue Line:
1. Contrary to an oft-quoted assertion, the Upper Second Avenue Line will not (repeat after me: not, not, NOT) preclude a Lower Second Avenue Line, or even several Lower Second Avenue Lines.
2. The Upper Second Avenue Line will feed into the Broadway Line, and therefore will serve Times Square directly and Penn Station within one block. It will also connect directly at 63rd/Lex with 6th Avenue and with Queens Blvd. Both of these features will relieve some general congestion on the Lexington Avenue AND 42nd Street Shuttle Lines, AS WELL AS transfer congestion at Grand Central, 51st/Lex, and 59th/Lex by replacing a very crowded two-seat ride (and a hectic transfer) with a less-crowded one-seat ride, and by replacing long winding corridors with a cross-platform transfer or a short escalator ride at 63rd/Lex. Not bad for a little stub.
Yes, Upper Second Avenue is far from a complete proposal. However, it represents a good START to solving a very real problem.
Something is MAJORLY wrong when an elected official and an "advocacy" group, on the record (!!), would prefer to let the Lex remain overcrowded, and become even more so, rather than allow an imperfect solution to be implemented. When the perfect becomes the enemy of the good, nothing is accomplished.
Hey Mr. Fume -- IF ONLY the MTA was actually proposing to build the "stubway" from 125th to 63rd. They are not.
They are proposing to spend $700 million on environmental reviews and engineering studies, gleefully distributing money to lawyers and consultants, and then dig a couple of holes. That is a joke. They are just repeating work that was already done in 1968 (and probably once before in 1955). Given the runup in debt by the end of this capital plan, the MTA will no longer be in a position to build anything, except perhaps to finish the LIRR to GCT.
Mr. Silver wants to be a hero be requiring the MTA to do studies and environmental impact statements for the whole line. Get his name in the paper. Nothing will be built. The Straphangers are fools to be pinning their hopes on that SOB.
As long as the press reports "studies" with anything more than outraged sacrasm, we'll never get anything built. Just more studies. That's what I said when I showed up and testified on the 2nd Avenue subway. The remaining MTA board member on the dais laughed, but I don't think its funny.
Hey Larry,In the MTA's next capitol improvment program,the money for the subway line is there.The line is supposed to open from the 63rd st line to 86st station with the others coming later as construction continues[being built in sectioms] I know its a bit of a strech,but I'll wait and see what happens. This remindes me of of what happened during the late70s/early 80s.there was all this talk of how the MTA was going to finish the 2ave line between 1985 and 89. NOTHING was ever done.the TA even tried to stop completion of the 63st/Archer ave lines. The only reason the TA did open these routes is because the government stopped all funding[threatend to,if they didn't use the lines] So now we wait for another tunnel to nowhere. When will this foolishnes end?
$700M just for pre-construction reviews, etc.? Is that possible. Sign me up. If they need any telecommunications consultants I'll do the whole job for only $1M, I'm real resonable, and will even give you a kickback, I mean fee, for the referral.
It does make me sick how easily the government is ripped off. Kind of puts privitization in perspective. Private companies are more efficient than civil servants, allright. They are more efficient at fleecing the taxpayer, too.
I can't tell you how often a consultant has gotten data from me and sold it to another city agency, although that happens less than it used to.
PATH Midtown Line can't be extended north of 33rd - the BMT positioned the Broadway Line specifically to preclude such an extension.
It was the IND that positioned the line to preclude extension. By that time, plans for an extension were dead, Grand Central was served well enough by the subway.
PATH's WTC is a loop!(Think South Ferry or City Hall IRT) to even think of an extension (NOT planned) would require closure of the station and rebuilding. If you have never been to WTC PATH it is packed!
PATH WTC is nowhere NEAR Grand Central. It would obviously not be part of such an extension, unless Manhattan was distorted beyond recognition.
Dont look for PATH to Grand Central. The space, while it does exist is planned for the LIRR Penn to Grand Central connector (if that is ever built.)
A Penn Station to Grand Central connector would make the most sense if they dug it down Madison Ave. from 33rd to 42nd and connected into the lower Grand Central loop track from there. You would avoid having to contend with the BMT and INDF tracks at 34th St., though the track would have to snake between the shuttle and the Flushing line at 42nd Street.
A Penn Station to Grand Central connector would make the most sense if they dug it down Madison Ave. from 33rd to 42nd and connected into the lower Grand Central loop track from there. You would avoid having to contend with the BMT and IND tracks at 34th St., though the track would have to snake between the shuttle and the Flushing line at 42nd Street.
For SI service, I think the Hudson-Bergen LRT should become the Richmond-Hudson-Bergen LRT.
i belive the bayonne bridge had plan for a rapid transit system built into it
Today I noticed that at the 28th Street station on the northbound IRT number 6, there seems to have been a staircase that leads to a lower level, that is completely sealed up. It has a sign hanging on top of it, that is blacked out. I was wondering whether a connection was ever possible at 28th Street (If I recall, I thought you could change to the Path, though I'm only 20% sure)or whether this is just an underpass that got blocked up.
Thanks,
Clark Palicka
TrAnSiTiNfO
I don't think there is a PATH connection there. Think its a underpass
to the other side. People could use that to transfer if they are going the wrong way. There are many passages like that in the IRT system. Most are closed because of security reasons. Most IRT stations in Manhattan, you must pay again if you wish to change sides at the same station. With Metrocard, I'm not sure.
On the Lex you can change directions without going outside at about half of the stations. 125th, 96th, 68th, 59th, 51st, 42nd, 14th, Canal, BB, Fulton, and Bowling Green allow free change of direction. My best recollection is that 116th, 110th, 103rd, 86th, 77th, 33rd, 28th, 23rd, Astor, Bleeker, Spring, and Wall don't.
No comment on the Broadway line.
It's just a blocked cross-under. Path is 3 avenues away at that location.
-Hank
This reminds me: On the Track 4 shuttle platform at Times Square there is a staircase clearly visible, but inaccessible -- surrounded by a chain-link fence -- and leading to a pit of darkness. Anybody know what that is? It's obvious by the decor that this was the original 1904 Times Square station. Were the stairs just a cross-under there too?
Yep. Look for a wood-and concrete section on the track 1 platform, along with some glass blok set in the floor. This is the other stair.
-Hank
Is it used for storage now?
When the shuttle was a Mainline from the east to west side the were four tracks 2 track is the concrete platform for 3 track. The staircase to nowhere you mention was an underpass from the uptown(track 4) to the downtown (track 1) platform. From what i've observed about the Time Square shuttle area, Time Square was a local stop if you look at the track layout 1-2-3-4 platforms available only at 4 track and 1 track 2-3 tracks were express
You're absolutely correct. The IRT underestimated the traffic potential at Times Square when the original mainline was designed, and as a result, a mere local stop was built. The closed underpass is situated right between the express tracks of the BMT Broadway line, which passes directly beneath the shuttle. In fact, you can see where the express tracks spread apart to accommodate the underpass just past the northern end of the BMT station.
For more information about the Times Square staircase, you might try and get hold of either the October 16th (? not sure of date) 1966 "B" Type E.R.A. fantrip brochure written by David Rogoff or, his subway construction article (N.Y. Div. ERA Bulletin - mid 60's) about this section of the BMT Broadway Subway. Details about the staircase may be discussed in this article. Try as well, his article on abandoned facilities of the IRT, a two part feature in a mid 60's New York ERA Division Bulletin. I'm writing this response at work, so I can't reach over to my shelf and grab this material to check the dates.
Ed. Please stay tuned! a work is in progress on IRT Not Built courtesy of the kind folks at ERA. Peggy Darlington has secured permission to adapt several ERA Bulletin articles for this site. A preview, thanks to Peggy:
There were plans for an IRT utica Avenue Subway along with an extension of the New Lots line to JFK and then to the city line.
For more- please wait for Peggy's work and for our illustriopus webaster to post the work.
The April and June 1964 Issues of the Bulletin of the New Yrok Division ERA gives some detail of this passage way. The south stairway has long been sealed but the north staircase is intact and you can look down it to the bottom. The passageway itself is used for utility lines and storage.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Been there, done that. You can't see much of anything down there.
It's an underpass. The BMT also had one once at 23rd St. and Broadway, and the IRT 6 also had one at Astor Place. Too bad they never built one at Bleeker Street -- it would have solve the problem of the "downtown only" transfer to and from the IND.
there is also an underpass at 28 on the BMT (Behind a locked door on the platform.)
According to some info I have received, there is space for a free transfer from City Hall BMT-lower level, to Park Place IRT- now that would be a great connection!(and I understand it is under study.)
With an unlimted Metrocard, that would also allow for a "free" underground/overpass walk all the way from City Hall to the World Financial Center building on the other side of West Street in bad weather, which would be pretty close to the old record of an underground passageway 42nd St. outside the Bryant Park to Eighth Ave. and 31st St. when the 33rd St. passageway and the Sixth Ave. passageways were opened (of course, two of those were in the paid fare zone back then, so in the pre-Metrocard days it was going to cost you anywhere from a dime to a dollar, depending on what year you're talking about)
Are you talking about the closed upand covered over exit at the South end of the platform?
They did build one at Bleeker Street. More precisely, it was part of the Broadwsy-Lafayette station. It ran under the IRT tracks from the East end of the mezzanine level to the East side of Lafayette Street. However, it only connected to a street level exit because the South end of the IRT North-bound platform is not far enough South to connect with the underpass. Since it was an "underpass to nowhere," it was sealed up and covered over st both ends years ago.
8:33 PM Saturday.
Tune your radio to Newsradio 88. Htey're talking about the JFK airtrain.
I always knew I liked that station for some reason :-)
Could it be for "Transit and Weather on the Eights"?
Yes, Bob, but not for three weeks :-(
I used to like teh station's website. Guess it was getting a lot of hits, because CBS corporate dragged it into its main website. You get lots of ads, and I can't even find the local news anymore. I E-mailed them that it was off the bookmark list.
Anyone know what the light outside the LIRR MU cars mean. They are right above the conductor's operating position. Think they are blue, orange, red and green.
Also is there a interlock for MUs. There doesn't seem to be. The door sometimes open while the train is still moving. I saw the motorman power up the train withput turning the master key. I don't even think
that there is a indicator inside the cab.
I don't think I have ever seen this posted here.
Frequently, when an R-68 pulls into a station there
is a strange smell, that I think comes from the
brakes. I don't notice it on every car, and I have
often wondered if it happens on cars which have
recently had a new set of brake shoes put on at the
local Great Bear Subway Car Center. It's kind of an
offensive smell. Sometimes I am not sure if it is
actually coming from the cars, or is just from my
clothing which usually goes unwashed for weeks at a
time. I usually wait till right after the monthly
ERA meeting to put on a fresh set of clothes...
As a subway conductor, I have noticed this smell for the past 3 weeks. It isn't limited to the R-68 cars, I also noticed it on the r-44's and 46's. Questioning RCI's, i was told that the deicer used on the rails and the warm or hot brakes combined cause this smell. The deicer is a liquid sprayed by special trains on the rails, and also on the switches. I guess the heat of the brakes causes a chemical reaction and the smell
It's the brake pads heating up. The snow brake is activated, which keeps the water on the wheels from freezing, and warms the wheels sufficiently to melt the ice it comes in contact with. You should see the trucks on some of the SIR cars. So caked with ice, you'd think they run in Alaska!
-Hank
Hank, gotta question, since you're from SI -- what kind of speed do the SIR trains attain? I know some of the stations have a bit more distance between them than the average subway line, and I haven't ridden SIR since 1980 (believe it or not).
The best I've seen them do is 50 bvetween Clifton and Grasmere going eastbound, which is downhill. It's also the longest stretch between stations on the line. Some express trains (skip all stops from St. George to Great Kills) make about 30 the whole way.
-Hank
Maybe it's just easier to smell the R-68's ... they wallow by so slowly, there's plenty of time to smell things.
Their speed stinks, that's for sure.
The South Beach Branch of Staten Island Rapid Transit had its terminal at Wentworth Avenue.
Why?
I took a walk in South Beach today, and, unlike its Miami counterpart, it's not exactly jumping this time of year. There's a couple of arcades on Sand Lane open in February, but this beach is not exactly Coney Island in its heyday.
So what gives with a Wentworth Avenue terminal? Was this some sort of happening place prior to 1953...was the branch constructed to serve beachgoers?
BTW, the ROW of this branch continues to disappear, with cookie cutter homes springing up on Railroad Avenue. Trestles over St. Johns Avenue and Robin Road do remain.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Back then the B & O tried to stop all service on the SIRT, the ICC and the City said no, so they cut back, didn t order any new equipment and let it run to crap until the MTA took it over
Not entirely true. The SIR cars were in decent condition upon their retirement. The South Beach area at one time was like Keansburg, NJ, with hotels, beach homes, and amusment parks. The Wentworth Ave station was exactly 1 DOOR long. Shortest high-level platform in NY, allegedly. When the beach fun died out after WWII, so did patronage on the line.
-Hank
>>>The South Beach area
at one time was like Keansburg, NJ, with hotels, beach homes, and amusment parks. The Wentworth
Ave station was exactly 1 DOOR long. Shortest high-level platform in NY, allegedly.<<<
Fascinating. I think Henderson has a picture of the Wentworth Ave terminal in his Gotham Turnstiles book.
Know of anywhere I can get more info on South Beach's former glories?
www.forgotten-ny.com
But that was the 40s, SIRT/B&O discontinued service in the 50s
1953, to be exact. I'm sure it took some time to get permission from the ICC to end service, along with the usual protests from the city.
-Hank
No, the city was for abandonment. City Planning Commissioner Robert Moses wrote the report recommending abandonment.
You are correct. The South Beach Branch of the former B& O operated the SIRT ceased operations in 1953. It is amazing that the renovation lasted from 1936 to 1953 menaing the overpasses that were built. The last stop of the South Beach branch at Wentworth Ave allowed the detraining at one door only at high level. It was the shortest high level platform in the US. The right of way can still be followed today 47 years after it quit. Houses are being built on some of the right away near McClean Avenue. It is an interesting bit of rail history. In 1965, Silver Press published a pamphlet type book on the SIRT that explains a lot of what you want to learn.
You are correct. The South Beach Branch of the former B& O operated the SIRT ceased operations in 1953. It is amazing that the renovation lasted from 1936 to 1953 menaing the overpasses that were built. The last stop of the South Beach branch at Wentworth Ave allowed the detraining at one door only at high level. It was the shortest high level platform in the US. The right of way can still be followed today 47 years after it quit. Houses are being built on some of the right away near McClean Avenue. It is an interesting bit of rail history. In 1965, Silver Press published a pamphlet type book on the SIRT that explains a lot of what you want to learn.
The SIRT discussion leads me to ask if anyone can steer me to someone with a 1940s or 1950s SIRT map for sale?
I'd like to get one in decent shape to use for a sweatshirt printing.
Off-list responses are fine.
Thanks,
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I guess the shortest high level platform presently has to be the Long Is City LIRR Station.
Ever seen Mt. Pleasant on the Harlem Line??? ONE DOOR!!!
But isn't that a low platform?
The platforms are high-level because the M1's and M3's can only serve high-level platforms.
[re the one-door Mt. Pleasant station on Metro North's Harlem line]
[But isn't that a low platform?]
No, it has high-level platforms. The station is used almost exclusively by visitors to the adjacent Gate of Heaven cemetery. Pinelawn on the LIRR's Ronkonkoma line is also a cemetery station, although its platform is somewhat longer.
The ME-1 cars I remember riding in 1972 and early 1973 (just prior to their retirement) were in deplorable condition, literally shaking themselves apart, with broken windows, missing seats, dangling light fixtures AND dangling fans (#346), storm doors jammed, no heat, missing or no lights; the list of deferred-maintenance items was surely long then. I am sure they were handsome when new, although judging by the number of orange boxes on my ME-1 Master Sheet, they were terribly flammable. I show no fewer than 19 of them as having been lost to fire.
Wayne
The SIRT was plagued by fires.5 cars were lost at Tottenville in 1927 and eight at St George in 1946. Two others were wrecked in 1948. When 30 cars were transferred to the TA in 1953-54 this left the SIRT with 55 cars. It was the Clifton Fire of 1962 that was the kicker, with only 48 cars left to cover the Tottenville Line SIRT was forced to run the equiptment constantly.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, I show two wrecked. Despite their flammability, weren't these beasts built as tough as BMT Standards? You'd think they'd hold up even in the severest collision. And this was a derailment, no? Look at AB #2299 - hit a pillar, took a dent in the door, the pillar got the worst of it. If they weren't (they WERE Pressed-Steel cars, among the toughest built in the era - look at how tough their 20's-vintage MU rail coaches were), how did they differ body-wise? Aside from the R-1/R-9-style roof line, they sure looked a lot like the AB's.
Wayne
Wayne: Although the SIrT cars were well built I don't think that it was ever envisioned that they would be in a collision such as the Standards might experience. A Standard in a derailment would in all likelyhood hit a concrete wall and the builders provided for that. Whereas SIRT had only one short tunnel and if they ran off the tracks might hit a cow or two. Consider the lambasting that 2925 got in the Fresh Pond Yard, not only was she kicked clear off the BMT (literally) by an elederly Q but her whole front end was caved in.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I would find that odd, considering the reasons the cars were built to resemble the Standards. At the time they were ordered, the B&O was fully expecting that the tunnel from Owl Head Park be built and completed, connecting the SIR with the BMT.
-Hank
Also, the B & O was a Type I railroad under the FRA. Railroad type passenger cars had to be built to robust specifications.
However, the FRA didn't exist at the time the cars were built, so the ICC was the determining agency for specs.
Isn't there suppose to be some sort of revival plan for the north shore line going on right now? I mean if you look at it,the line did have a direct connection to the rail lines in N.J.[perth amboy] So whats going on? Does anybody have a clue?
The North Shore was the main line. So far, 'revival' has been merely thought, no action has been taken whatsoever. It would be fairly expensive, as much of the line is washed out, encroached, or otherwise blocked (such as by the partial collapse of the former US Gypsum plant)
The West Shore branch, the AK bridge, and the North Shore line as far as South Ave have been rehabilitated to serve, so far, 2 customers; the Howland Hook terminal, and the VISY paper recycling plant in Travis. Unfortunately, the NJ side has not yet been rebuilt, due to a political fight between the Port Authority and the county government. Apparently, the county sees no local benefit from taking 300 trucks off of their local roads for each ship that docks at Howland Hook.
-Hank
[Unfortunately, the NJ side has not yet been rebuilt, due to a political fight between the Port Authority and the county government. Apparently, the county sees no local benefit from taking 300 trucks off of their local roads for each ship that docks at Howland Hook.]
We can take some comfort in the fact that New York is not the only state with idiot politicians. Union County's Freeholders, or whatever they're called, sound like they're _almost_ stupid enough to serve on NYC's City Council.
The truck-elimination factor is even greater than 300 containers per ship. Today's post-Panamax container ships can carry up to 6,000 20-foot containers. Even allowing for a mix of larger containers, as well as the fact that a particular ship's containers are likely to be headed for several U.S. ports, it's possible that a single ship might drop off 1,000 containers at Howland Hook. That's 1,000 heavy trucks crossing the Goethals Bridge into Union County ... and we're not even considering ships loading at Howland Hook. Five doublestack trains can carry those 1,000 containers. I somehow suspect that if the voters of Union County thought long and hard about this situation, they'd set their cerebrally challenged representatives straight in a minute!
Not Perth Amboy, that is across from Tottenville, Elizabeth. Maybe Union County has the trucks paying a yearly roadtax and that is why they want more trucks. I know some cities and counties in the US have a tax so a truck can deliver there.
Other than the R29s which are said to be rusting apart, what other redbird classes pose rust concerns (one class I have heard is R36WF)?
I think that the redbirds on the #7 need to be checked for the "3 inch gap" problem. If a similar incident happened on the #7, there would be much more frustation than that of the #4.
Of course, this may be opening a new can of worms here, but the remaining R-33 Singles might be posing a "summer safety hazard" because of its no-A/C status, and unless extremely necessary, they should not even be putting those in service for another summer, if that summer proves to be as hot or hotter than last year.
Has anyone ever tried riding in that single car when the heat index exceeded 100 or so. (Remember that a heat index of about 115 or so is a approaching a danger zone) For this reason, only the sadomachoistic fit people should even try riding on that single on days as hot as that.
Which of the Redbirds are the most fit (in terms of rust, safety, etc.)? I've heard that some of the R33 class are among the best redbirds, minus those which are involved in the dragging today.
List of possible hazards:
Rust: R-29, R-36WF
Safety: R-33 (gap), R-33S (summer only hazard)
Sorry to be opening a new can of worms here, but I am anti-total-redbird on the #7. If need be, just smack an odd number of Livonia R62As into consists of redbirds, and you will revert back to the 1970s with the era of mixed cars, and say goodbye to those R-33 Singles (even if only 39 cars).
Nick
Yes! GET RID OF THOSE SINGLES!
Considering that riders went 60 years with no A/C at all, and even longer on those redbirds, I don't see what the hazard is.
-Hank
There's no reason that those cars should remain in service.
The TA was stupid for not ordering an additional 50 R-62s.
As I recall, Kawasaki was leery about dealing with NYCT after the St. Louis Car R-44 and Pullman R-46 problems, and didn't want to build more than 325 cars (the plan was to order 1,150 IRT cars -- the number to be built by any one carbuilder wasn't decided until the contracts were negotiated). One must also remember that the R-33 singles were nowhere near retirement age in 1982 when the R-62s were ordered.
By the way, individual cars in all "Redbird" classes (R-26, 28, 29, 33/33S, and 36) have rust problems.
David
Although I kind of agree with you I must say that the pre-war trains all had ceiling fans which did a much better job cooling than the type fans the R-33 has.
Did the fans faster in the old days? I've been on one R-33WF during the summer in the past two years, but I remember riding on a mainline Redbird back in the late 60s (R-29 or R-33) coming back from Yankee Stadium, and those fans seemed to be putting out a lot more air than in later years, right before the AC systems were installed.
When the Redbirds (Actually all classes of cars from R-16 thru R-38, unsure about others) were built, they had dampers in the ceiling of the car that were thermostatically controlled. These would remain open on hot days, and allow for better air circulation, especially when the car was out on the el. During the period of deferred maintenance, the motors burned out, and the vents were left in a closed position. Thus, the fans were just recirculating the air that was already heated in the car. This certainly could have accounted for the cars being even hotter than they were in the past.
The R-17 at Shoreline has an inch or two of steel dust built up around the fans in the ceiling. On Saturday 2/19, Stef, Doug, Thurston, Bklyn Lou, and I are going to drop the fans and clean this out. Jeff H will check connections to the damper motors, and we may reactivate the vents.
If anyone would like to help, and learn about the car as well, you are welcome to come.
Thanks for the explanation. I knew those cars felt cooler just after they first came out.
I'm guessing the R-33WFs right now have their dampers in the closed position, judging from all the death threats they receive on the board.
The celing fans on the R-1/9s ran at about the same speed as a present-day Casablanca fan at medium speed (we have three Casablanca fans at home). Those caged fans on the R-10s were too small to be effective.
The R26 is being eaten alive with rust as well as the R29. The 8500-series R29's are the absolute worst. They seem to have arrested the worst rust on the R28s and the R33s. Yes, quite a few R36WF are beginning to show serious rust. Better alert the Bondo Clinic at CI Shoppe for an influx of new patients.
Wayne
And for their listening pleasure, pipe in that famous song, to the tune of Frosty the Snowman, Rusty the Redbird.
I don't see the problem you people have with no A/C. In Chicago, most of our cars didn't have A/C up until about 10 years ago. I actually prefer it most of the time; I'd much rather have a breeze coming from open windows than A/C in the summer.
How many and what R-62A unit numbers were sent to the #7 in 1985? (I can confirm #1657 was part of that test, since there is a photo of it on Greller's book)
Nick
Probably 1651-1661. The train sent over was the "pilot" train, much as 6301-6310 is the "pilot" R-142 train now.
David
It's about a form of transportation so it not that far off topic.
I just noticed that on the back of every yellow and black cab that they had a yellow light on the trunk back. Now, i never noticed this until i saw one blinking last night. What are these for, if anyone can spread light on this let me know.
Those are the 'Help Me!' lights. They usually indicate that the cabbie is in some kind of trouble if it's blinking.
-Hank
As Mr. Eisenstein said, they are "trouble" lights, similar to the "hoodlum" lights on a bus. There should be one under the grille also (one front and one rear).
Some radio cars also have an emergency foot pedal that sets off an alarm at the base station and opens the microphone also. I drove a taxi in in NYC off and on from 1985 to 1991. They didn't have the lights then but I was grateful for the foot pedal on several occasions!
I'm An avid subway fan and like to collect route maps and such, as I'm sure many of you do. Recently, I've seen T-shirts that are Black, and have the number of the route in full color, such as 1, and then have the route terminals on the bottom in white, such as
242nd Street
South Ferry
Is there one for the D/Q lines ?, where do they sell them, and how much?
anyone know if they have those shirts with a j kn it cause i have one with the r
I have the one for the 6 train. It only says Bronx to Brooklyn Bridge, not Pelham Bay Park to Brooklyn Bridge. I got it at the Transit Museum Store at GC for $30 (I think). I saw them for the 1 and F (they had others, I can't remember which ones).
I bought a dark navy blue "F" with white "Queens to Brooklyn" lettering on Houston St., not too far from Katz's Deli.
The man wanted $20, but it can be had for less with a little haggling. This particular store had a whole bunch of lines, inlcuding 6, 1/9, F, A, E, and many others.
I think it was right near the corner of Allen and Houston...southwest corner if I recall correctly. They are open 'til 2AM on weeknights, and I'm sure even later on Fri. or Sat. when all of the bar patrons are out.
Go to the Transit Museum. I got a gray 3 shirt for $20. It said Harlem to Bklyn. It would be betteri it said Harlem to ENY.............
3TM
Oops Sent last message too early! Anyway, I was wondering if anyone else had seen these shirts, and how could I get a hold of them.
Thanks, Rics
Pretty sure I remember seeing them at the transit museum gift shop at Grand Central. They may also be available elsewhere.
-- David
Chicago, IL
If you know anybody who's unfaithful to his/her spouse, then send him/her a shirt with the 8th Avenue-Fulton Express.
>>If you know anybody who's unfaithful to his/her spouse, then send him/her a shirt with the 8th Avenue-Fulton Express.
Wrong color "A"....
The shirts that I've seen aren't exactly as described in the original post--they only give the destination boroughs, not the stations (e.g. "D: Bronx to Brooklyn," not "D: 205 St., Bronx / Coney Island, Brooklyn"). They have 'em at the Transit Museum shops at Court St. and at Grand Central, and at stores like Canal Jean and Doctor Jay's. As I remember, the lines include the 1, the 6, the A, the D, the F, and the N. The printing is good, but the cotton is pretty lousy for a $20 t-shirt--you should buy them a size too big, since my "D" one seems to have shrunk past wearability.
When they come out with an "L" or "Q" version maybe I'll spring for one.
Wayne
I have a friend here who s company makes Custom T Shirts. I was thinking of having some custom made for us Sub Talkers cost about $10-11 dollars each. I need to know if anyone would be interested in one, What shall I have put on it. (Example CAUTION SUBWAY LOVER) also he can silk screen a photo on it also, and what color. For the train I was thinking of a old Triplex. Give me some feed back. If I get enough respose, I will take the top three sayings, colors and order them. I will only order Lg and XL unless I get enough Med. They are a top quality T Shirt, 50/50 hanes, and have ordered before for my business.
Sounds like a good idea. Just don't use any route symbols. The MTA legal staff is very tough on licensing those.
I would like to see a good Low-V pic on a T-shirt (being a long time Bronxite that is my preference).
No route numbers, I will do a picture, klike I said, of some old retired car, low volt, AB, Triplex etc. Come on guys get on the ball. Only people on this web site can gbet them for a limited time offer. Not the ones at the Museum, or on Orchard St etc. Remember 1-design, 2-color 3-saying.
I'll vote for the Low-V, althought you might want to put a FishBowl bus on it too (to keep the bustalkers happy)
1-design,2-color 3-saying.
Here goes:
Triplex, Black, "Brooklyn (Rapid's) Own"
Bluebird, Dark Blue, "The real New Technology Train"
Zephyr, Silver, "In memory of the Fulton Street EL"
R-11, Silver but doors Blue, "In memory of the old Franklin Shuttle, 1878 - 1999" (or whenever the ROW as built)
AB, Dark Brown, "The Standard"
R-1/9, Black, "Take the A Train"
Lo-V, Black, "Real rapid transit"
Or maybe reproduce the builder's plate under the image of the car you pick.
--Mark
Mark, I can only have one saying or picture put on it. I want to do this for Subway Talkers, not for the general public
I'm sorry if my post wasn't clear - I meant for you to pick one.
--Mark
Any car, most any color (green's my favorite color, but white is probably the best since you want the focus on the design, not the shirt - I don't like brown, yellow, or purple [no offense to J/M/Z, N/R, or 7 fans, I just don't like those colors]), any reasonable and appropriate saying. I'm good for one in double extra fat for myself and two XL for Jr. and my wife.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If we use "Take the A Train", then why not use an image of the car which will forever be synonimous with that route - the immortal R-10? In a teal-and blue scheme to boot?
So does that mean that I should stop using the route bullets at metrocard.cjb.net?
That's probably fair usage, since it's descriptive and non-commercial, but remember I'm not a lawyer so I'd defer to their opinion.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Can you customize it for individual subtalkers? Here are some examples:I LOVE THE ATLANTA SUBWAY-Mr WillieI LOVE THE R-33 SINGLES-Eugenius D Train (Humans)I LOVE THE WEST END-Sea Beach FredFULL LENGTH CABS-THE WAY TO GO-also Mr WillieGMC BUSES RULE-Hey PaulI LOVE THE ARCHER AV REPLACEMENT TO THE JAMAICA EL-Chris RMTA=HONESTY IN GOVERNMENT-Robert Johnson1010WINS-Todd GlickmanHILLARY Clinton FOR THE SENATE-Sea Beach Fred
Nope would bring the price WAY UP.
I can just see myself with a shirt which says "I love the R-68s".
HA HA HA!!
How about using "subway enthusiast"? Sounds good otherwise. I like the idea of using a picture of a Triplex.
That s the best one yet. but I am not getting much feedback, only 5 answers and 8 shirts. I need 33 shirts to print, come on guys. Also colors (only one)
Oh and BTW, I wear a large.
As I said if I get 30 people who want them, I will have them made up, Only 10 people said they want one. I will be ordering Lg-2X. Noone has told me what colors they want. So I am leaning toward a mid blue.
I'll take one, large, but have do you know whats on them yet?
As I stated before in other posts, I am taking a survey to the end of the month for suggestions. The 3 Biggest are Lo Volts, Triplex and Gaten Cares, The saying so far is NY Subway Fan, No color yet. As soon as I know that I have enough for 32 shirts I will order. They most likely will go for around $10-12. each plus postage. No more then $15.00, and they will be heavy duty 50/50. I will only order Lg-XL &XXL unless someone tells me they want some thing else. Kids will be ok too.
Aright, in that case my vote is for the Low-V
Great idea. Might I suggest "move over let me hog the railfan window" or "I rode the 2 Express". What ever it is although I am in the UK I would like one.
Simon
Swindon UK
How about some gate cars with" above the roofs we go " ?
I wouldn't mind buying one of those!
Make that three!!!! Large preferably!
Yo! where can I get these Shirts! Are these Straphanger's shirts???? Do they have the E? Please write to E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com
I am taking a survey in which to order some, They do not exist yet. The poll is 3 GateCars, 4 Triplex and 2 Lo Volt IRT, saying Subway fan using the triplex , and Above the Roofs we go for the Gate Cars. No colors yet Final voteing date is Leap Day, if I do not have enough votes, I will pass on it Bob
Got the 1.. Can't do without the 9.
At FAO Schwartz (5th Av stop on BMT Bway line) they sell children's shirts with the "F" "A" & "O" of the stores name in subway colors and circles.
They had those in their Vegas Store also
Uh, what color do they use for the O?
I haven't posted any information about that site in a while, so I'll do it now.
Bullets are back, the site looks just like it did before, except that there are more machines to report.
Webrings have moved to their own page.
The MVM Tutorial and What is an MRM page is on one page.
And for those who have it bookmarked, and haven't been there in a while, your bookmark will have to be replaced.
And now, a public request.
Does anybody here have Javascript skills? I'm trying to make the page with the table hidden and you would click a button to "maximize" it, and I want to do this so it appears instantaneously and the data for the table is still in the main site's code.
And finally, what's a good site with a DHTML and Javascript tutorial?
Hi All-
Is there anyway to tell the "redbirds" apart from one another? I have been unable to spot subtle differences between the R26,28,29 & 33. I am sure there must be?
Michael B.
There are of course, numbers, but I can't be bothered to remember them.
Since you didn't mention the R-36, I assume you know about the picture windows.
The R-33S has picture windows like the R-36, but it has signs on the bulkheads at both ends, and doesn't have A/C (notice no thick poles near the seats near both ends of the car).
The R-33 and R-36 both have white ceilings, so that's how you tell the R-33 apart from the...
R-26-29 all of which have beige celings and PA speakers in that round thing that covers the hole from which the cold air comes from the A/C.
Now, one is to look at the builders plate, if it's there. The R-33 and R-36 were both rebuilt by the NYCTA and built by St. Louis Car, sometimes you'll only see St. Louis Car on the plate.
The R-29 was rebuilt by Morrison Knudsen and also built by St. Louis Car
The R-26 and R-28 were also rebuilt by Morrison Knudsen, but built by American Car and Foundry. Of these two, I know of no way of telling them apart except by number. The fact that some of them have drop-sash windows and others have the standard sideways casement (what is it called?) means nothing as AFAIK they aren't distributed to all the cars of any one of the two classes.
P.S. All of the companies listed above (NYCTA is not a company), are no longer in business.
ACF is, but the don't build transit cars.
Check the number. That's the best way. Another difference is that the R26 R28 and R29 have tan enameled roofs with PA speakers installed in the middle of those circular AC vents. The R33/36ML cars have white roofs with incandescent light fixtures located in the AC vents.
R36WF cars are easy to tell apart, with their circular picture window and the added ceiling light fixtures located down the center of each car. Aside for a few on the #6, the rest all run on the #7 only.
The unit numbers are available in the subway FAQ. Other than that, there are no notable differences.
R26 & R28 had pink seats. They were painted gray with the rebuild. A lot of this gray paint has been scratched off & you could see the pink.
Wanna make a DIFFERENCE??
Get the MTA and the r-142 smarks
to change their minds about
chopping the life out of our
beloved REDBIRDS.
Redbirds4Life
An easy way to tell apart the Redbirds would be if the only ones were in museums and pictures. Then, they can alway be captioned. They might be your beloved, but they're certainly not my beloved.
You can stop progress or Father Time for that matter. These old girls have earnered the keep. So, enjoy them while you can.
Selfishly, if their last stand is the Flushing line, that's good for me because that's what I use to get access to our Field Trips.
Mr t__:^)
the redbirds on the Bronx IRT have no more life left. they are 40 years old, corroded, giving mechanical problems and the technology is out dated. they got to go they can't stay around any longer.
but they ae being shiped to the #7 route, so i guess they still have life to them and if they are supposed to be so old, why operate any of them on the #7?
taking the 4,5&6 everyday the redbird are tird and rusty... some of the older ones are almost scary as how much rust you can see under the paint..
then when the ta does it's subay order, couldnt they have ordered all new cars instead of sending the redibrds to the 2, 5 and 6 lines? here is how i would have done it:
R-62
4
5
R62-A
1/9
3
R143
2
6
7
Here is list of cars that are using right now
#1 have 320 R62A cars
#2 have 400 R33 cars
#3 have 250 R62A cars
#4 have 320 R62 & 80 R33 total 400 cars
#5 have 110 R26, 100 R28, 110 R29 & 20 R62A for OPTP total 340 cars
#6 have 126 R29, 230 R62A, 100 R36 cars total 456 cars if this number currently or not.
#7 have 39 R33s & 380 R36 total 419 cars.
In my opinion
#1 get 320 R62 cars
#2 get 400 R142A cars
#3 get 250 R62A stay with 9 cars.
#4 get 400 R62A
#5 get 340 R142 cars
#6 get 370 R142 cars
#7 get 175 R62A & 200 R142 total 375 cars.
So what do you think about my opinion? So long Redbirds.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
perfect. now,about the ind and bmt, here is my choice:
A-R33,R38
B-R40,R68
C-R33
D-R68
E-R44
F-R44
G-R46
J/Z-R40
M-R42
N-R68
Q-R46
R-R46
S-R68
new cars(when and if they arrive) should go to the "A" line, because the R110's went there first. This is also the only line to oerate throughout 4 boroughs. Also, why isn't SIRT (Staten Island Rapid Transit) getting new cars, or are they stuck permantly with R44?
1]There aren't enough R44's for the combinded E/F service 2]The R33S are IRT cars. You must mean the R32. 3]There arent enough modR40s to carry J/Z service there are only 100 cars and the 40 slants are not allowed on the Jamaica EL. 4]THE HOME OF THE R46;JAMAICA YARD NOW AND FOREVER!!!!!! The Q most likly will get them when the 63st connector opens. A-R32,R44 B-R40,R68 C-R38,R44 D-R68 E-R32,R46 F-R32,R46 G-R46 J/M/L/Z-R40M,R42,R110B,R143 N-R42,R68A Q-R46,R40,R68 R-R46,R32,R40 V-R46,R32,R68 S-R32
>>>should go to the "A" line, because the R110's went there first. This is also the only line to oerate throughout 4 boroughs<<<
The "A" train only operates in 3 boroughs it does not go to The Bronx.
207th Street is in Manhattan.
Peace,
Andee
Only the best redbirds will be running on the 7. And that's a temporary situation.
Even in their creaky, rusty condition, the MDBF on the Flushing Redbirds is still among the better ones in the system, probably because they've been serviced at the same two locations, Corona and CI, for their entire lives, instead of being shuffled around from yard to yard like the poor R-42s have been. Because of that, it makes more sense to keep them going a little while longer and get rid of the R-26/28/29s first.
Keeping the birds going until the last 350-400 R-142s arrive and then putting them on the Flushing line (once the Corona and CI yards are modified) would make the most sense of all, since you would replace a uniform fleet with a uniform fleet, instead of having to deal with both R-62s and R-142s.
02/07/2000
I understand that all the R-142 and 142A's will not replace every Redbird. Is that true?
Bill Newkirk
There are about 200 more Redbirds currently in service than there are R-142s and 142As coming, so unless the MTA wants to get in the same bind with the IRT they got into with the BMT and IND by retiring the R-27/R-30s early, then they will have to keep some of the less rusty birds around. Whether or not they keep them on the Flushing line or on the mainline remains to be seen, but I would think if the 142s are going to go to Flushing, they given them enough to completely fill out the service requirements, and put the Redbirds in with the mainline fleet (mainly for rush hour use, I would guess)
Some redbirds are going to be kept until the next IRT car purchase contract in 2005.
The MTA has begun to order the replscement cars[i believe 425 cars] for the IRT lines as well as over 600 cars for the BMT/IND lines[the first cars to replace the R38 thru 42's] This is suppose to begin somewhere within the next 3 years[2003-4] go to the MTA web site under CAPITOL IMPROVMENT 2000-2004 PLAN. There's a long post there describing all details
On order:
680 IRT R-142 from Bombardier (10 cars on the property, being tested)
400 IRT R-142A from Kawasaki (10 cars on the property, being tested)
212 BMT-IND R-143 from Kawasaki
In the pipeline (per the MTA 2000-2004 Capital Plan proposal of October 1999):
320 IRT cars for normal replacement (of Redbirds)
150 IRT cars for service expansion (to be supplied in the meantime by keeping an extra 150 Redbirds around until these cars are in service)
660 BMT-IND cars for normal replacement (of cars in the R-32, R-38, R-40/40M, and R-42 classes - few of them will be R-32s)
David
I'm talking about the ones on the 2 and 5 lines. they got to go the ones on the 6 are in good shape. i heard that the ones on the 2 and 5 are going to be scrapped. half of them.
Interesting discussion, but inasmuch as the Flushing Line runs 11-car trains, the 39 R-33 double-end cars are going to have to stay there. That means the R-36 fleet probably will too.
The "Redbirds" received heavy overhauls in the late 1980s, and should have some life left. NYCT is trying hard not to replace everything at once, since if they do that, in another 20 or 30 or 40 years they will again have to order enormous numbers of cars, for which they will pay a price premium. It helps to remember that the New York transit system:
1) Owns more subway cars than all the other rapid transit systems in North America, combined
2) Carries more riders than all the other rapid transit systems in North America, combined
WHen you're the 700-lb. gorilla, you have to do everything carefully.
When you're a 700-lb. gorilla, you can anything you want to.
I was riding the 5 today, and I saw the condition of the R26 and 28 cars that made up the train, because the damned train was delayed at E180th St for almost 15 minutes because of some phantom work train around 12:15 PM. R26 #7756 was incredibly rusted, especially near the windows, edges and route signs. In fact, every one of them showed significant rust damage seeping through the paint.
However, the R33's that I saw on the #2 today looked better.
02/09/2000
Chris R16,
I was on that platform at East 180th St. south end of the southbound platform! I was wearing jeans and a black thermal jacket with a blue camera bag. I remember that fiasco. I was waiting for a southbound #2 and that was messed up also. When the #2 came in, they ran us down the middle all the way to 149th and 3rd. We weren't highballing either, just slow enough to space some room with the following #2 which was running local. The line was backed up in both directions! I went up to Dyre to see if the R-142A was being tested and it wasn't there. So I thought, maybe it was leaving the barn and died across the switches!
Bill Newkirk
LOL, I think I saw you. I was near the back of the uptown platform, wearing a blue jacket and carrying a black backpack. Small world.
BTW, no worktrain was anywhere that I could see. After the 15 minute deay, in which I said many an audible curse word, the uptown #2 finally came in on the exp. track. I, along with many other pissed of people got on. While heading towards Bronx Park East, NO WORKTRAIN WAS ANYWHERE. Not on the Dyre Ave. line. Not on the WPR line. Since these things don't move at warp speed, it couldn't have left the area that quickly.
What caught you in this delay was a GO (which I found out later) in which Manhattan bound 2's were bypassing all stops from Gun Hill to E180. Your Manhattan bound train had to hold north of BPE on the center track as my uptown train cleared the signals and switched over to the local track. I had to go uptown to Gun Hill to catch a 2 downtown later that day.
I'm still pissed off about that. No worktrain was visable anywhere, even long the Dyre line as far north as Morris Park. Nothing seemed to block this train's path.
02/09/2000
I think I saw you with the backpack!
Talk about two railfans passing in the daylight (stolen from two ships passing in the night). Maybe a reaction to the contract ratification?
Bill Newkirk
LOL. If I had introduced myself to you, you probably think I was lying about my age. Even though I'm 27, I always get mistaken for someone much younger.
Why does the #'s 2 and 7 train get redbirds but others don;t? Is it allocated that way or what? I saw some old pictures of my favorite train as redbirds but when I was in NY last summer only the 2 and 7 trains seemed to be redbirds. Why is that?
It depends on the car assignments. Some yards are eqipped to handle redbirds, some are equipped to handle the R62.
Here's what's assigned to where:
#1 all R62A
#2 mostly R33
#3 all R62A
#4 mostly R62, with a handful of R33's
#5 all R26, R28 and R29
#6 half R62A, half R29/R36 redbirds
#7 mostly R36WF, and R33S
#9 all R62A
you forgot the redbirds on the 5 line and some redbirds on the 6 and some on the 4 line.
Well for one thing, the Redbirds can't possibly run on the N, it's a BMT line, the Redbirds are IRT cars. See the FAQ.
With proper modification, Humans - there's been a lot of threads on this very subject, as I would have thought you knew.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, not in regular service. Unless the trip sticks are reversed (or we use the dreaded R-33 single) and plates are welded to the doors to cross the space, or we put up MIND THE GAP signs. Contrary to the belief of some, both divisions use the same North American standard gauge, this isn't Philadelphia.
I think he was referring to the Division B redbirds, back in the late 60's and 80's. Remember, the R16, R27 and R30 were all painted red at one time.
is the r142a runnig anywhere? Is at least running on the dyre ave shuttle (OPTO) on overnights, or will i be lucky one afternoon comning home from work at 42nd st-grand central and see it in serivce on either the 4, 5 or 6?
It is and will be in testing for some time. It is not yet in revenue service.
Peace,
Andee
No R142 will be in revenue service until at least May. It needs to complete 6 months of testing without a major incident first.
I'm hoping someone will catch the schedule when it does go into revenue service so I can check it out.
No R142 will be in revenue service until at least May. It needs to complete 6 months of testing without a major incident first.
I'm hoping someone will catch the schedule when it does go into revenue service so I can check it out.
The R33s were done in house a few years later than those done by M&K so that might explain why the earlier cars are more rust damaged than others. I remember when the TA was doing these cars in the now closed overhaul shop at 207 Street that the cars were just sanded and painted where as the M&K cars came back looking like new. Another possibility may be that the protective lead based paint was removed to bare metal on the M&K cars. They did have a nice mirror like finish to them. The TA overhauls looked like they were rolled on in thick layers. Figure that the TA will not put any money into departing cars appearances except for grafitti from here on. Even if they will hang around for two years, they are still goners.
Has anyone noticed that certain cars make a characteristic whistling/howling sound as they travel through the tunnels. I have noticed this sound occasionally on the A & C only, and usually eminate from an R-32 or R-38, though I have heard an R-44 make a similar noise.
Michael B.
i have heard a whistling sound coming throught he keyhole of the front door of the front car of the train (i stand there as often as possible obvisouly)
when i put my finger over the hole the noise stopped
It's obviously the wind passing through the keyhole!!! Duh!!!
Clark Palicka
Wind passing through any small hole makes noise.
'Nuff said, let's NOT expand on this subject.
L O L
Did you happen to notice if it was a constant whistle or did it make a warbbling sound? This could be critical in figuring this out.
it was constant.. dude, it was only wind noise. nothing more to be said in this post.
The members of my motorcycle club, Suffolf Wings, have nick-named me Train-Dude although 3 former NYCT managers are also members. Since in the past 2 days I've also been referred to as Dude on Subtalk, I will no longer fight what seems to be my fate. Here-after, I wish to be known as Train-Dude.
your are so right man now if that whistling was coming from someones head as wind was passing them...
[Has anyone noticed that certain cars make a characteristic whistling/howling sound as they travel through the tunnels.]
The MKT-FKD Budd cars, gone but not forgotten, where classic whistlers. I'm not sure that the new cars make as much 'noise' as the Budd's did.
Also, here in Chicago, the 3200's can whistle up a pretty good tune when they are in motion.
I think the whistle gives the car-fleet character. What do others think?
-Jim K.
Chicago
My experience in Chicago when I video taped from the front end was that the 2600, 2400, and 2200 all whistled so I carried a roll of tape to seal up the front end door as best as possible.
Hope I remember the tape when I redo the front end series of videos.
David Harrison
How are you going to tape from the front with the coming of full-width cabs? Ask the motorman?
-Jacob
Excet for the Green Line 2400 cars, most older high performance cars have been converted, just about.
The taping would be done with a permit. A supervisor would be paid for who would operate the doors in conductor fashion and the operator would operate in motorman fashion.
Both the Brown and the Orange could be done in one day, plus some inside tower shots too--hey, I'm paying for the supervision/escort, aren't I???
David Harrison (Videos By Dave/All the 6000's You've Missed)
Jeez, how much do they charge for this sort of thing? I just assumed some nice motorman might let someone put a camera up front.
Yes, I have noticed that the 2400s on the Lake St. are the only ones that still whistle, for the most part. Is it because the other cars were rebuilt by the Skokie Shops a few years ago?
2400-series cars really whistle from the railfan window, if you sit up front. Oh, and although it's not whistling, the 2200-series motors have a characteristic rumbling as they start up that is not heard on later cars. It's sort of what the 6000s used to sound like.
Sounds to me like a distinguishing characteristic of any subway cars with storm doors a la not only the R-32 and R-38, but also the R-40, R-40M and R-42. To say nothing of the remaining Redbirds and those R-62A’s which were not paired in groups of fives for OPTO.
Yesterday afternoon I was waiting for a downtown "A" at 168th street, and waiting on the local tracks was a "B" train (R-68s). It seems the "B" train is running its old route w/ 168th St. as it northern terminus in place of the now defunct "C", and th "A" is running express all the way to 168th. I thought the "B" was going to maintain its route and the "A" was to become local past 145th street.
P.S. On the wat home spotted a "B" train composed of R-38's.
Michael B.
So does this mean that the A is express through those two stations on weekends and not on weekdays?
The B train is supposed to run to 168St on weekends instead of 21 Street or 145 Street. This only going to happen for this Febuary only. Hey if it goes well they might bring the C back to Bedford Park Boulevard (rush-hours)
Kinda’ like a trip down Memory Lane, eh? Not just in the case of the B but also the E as well, in its route to Euclid Avenue – one of several alternate destinations the E went during rush hours in the years prior to 1976. (More specifically, at the time when the initial color-coding system was introduced with the opening of the first leg of the Chrystie Street project in 1967, the E went during rush hours to not only Euclid Avenue but also Lefferts Boulevard, Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park. By the time the first of the infamous maps came out in 1972, the E’s rush-hour termini were Euclid Avenue, Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park; when the second version came out in early 1973, Far Rockaway was no longer a terminus for the E.)
But the fact that B trains are using R-38’s is also a blast from the past. I remember in the early ’80’s B (and D) trains used R-38’s as well as R-32’s.
What were the service patters to the Rockaways like 1956-76?
IIRC, the Rockaways were served by the HH during non-rush hours and the E during rush hours at first. It wasn't until later (1967, perhaps?) that A trains began operating to Far Rockaway and eventually Rockaway Park.
Steve: In brief this was Rockaway Service from 1956-67.
4/29/56- E to FR and Rp rush, shuttles Euclid-RP and FR non rush
9/16/56- A to FR and RP rush, A to FR wkdy midday and eve, Sat-Sun x nights, shuttles Euc-RP and FR nights
1/27/57 - A to FR and RP non rush, shuttles Euc-RP and FR non rush
9/28/58- E to FR and RP rush,Round-Robin shuttles Euc-RP-FR-Euc all other times.
10/11/58 E to FP and RP rush, Shuttles Euc-RP and FR wkdy mid and eve
Sat/Sun daytime. Round Robin other times.(Usally 6P-8a winter,9P-6a summer)(+/-)
2/1/62- HH officially assigned to shutte service. "HH Fulton St Local"
5/9/67 - A to FR wkdy mid and eve,Sat/Sun 8a-10p,E to FR and RP rush
HH to RP and FR during transition periods, HH round robin night.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I knew I could count on you, Larry. Thanks!
Steve: Your welcome. It would be interesting to know how much the double fare affected the lack or ridership on the Rockaway Line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
(How did double fare affect the Rockaway Line)
Ridership couldn't be any lower than today.
One way to help fianance a full-length 2nd Avenue Subway would be to charge a double fare for 20 years or so. Knowing most of us won't be on it might ATTRACT passengers on the rich East Side.
What about Lefferts Boulevard and 1967-76?
On Saturday and Sunday instead of running to 21st street in Queens, the B is running to 168 (except for midnight hours when the A will run local from 59 to 207). Queens will be handled by a shuttle from second ave (per official bulletin. Their public info was wrong!)
During the week the A will add stops at 155 and 163.
Not sure what the A is doing north of 145th in rush hours; I presume local as the B is definitely at Bedford PK.
At nights, the A has been CPW local with D express. And this isn't too late at night either.
Hi
Does any one know how to get records for my Grandfather.He retired as electrical foreman in 1944. He started in 1902. I have social security number but can't find him in death index. Any info would be helpful. THANKS
William McLaughlin
If he didn't work as electrical foreman for a transit company, this is an OFF-TOPIC post.
If he did, then which one?
.....the subway!!!
Nightmares of L.A.?
Try to imagine if the IRT never happened or if elevated lines took off like they did in Chicago.
What kind of city would New York be if the subway, so greatly woven into the city's identity, wasn't there?
When a "What if..." question is presented, it has to be looked at from several levels. Firstly, one must analyze the effect that the item whose existence is being question has had. Then one would have to figure out how each event affected by the subject of the "What if..." exercise would have turned out differently and how this would have changed. Then, if you want to go to true realism, one has to analyze the conditions which were conducive to the creation of the subject of our inquiry and remove them, perhaps by affecting as little else as possible, and use those as conditions for the simulated world.
So perhaps, in order for the subways not to have existed, Manhattan's development would have shifted eastward onto Long Island, where the spaces are not as constrained, and a low density city, one that could have avoided construction of a subway one hundred years ago and developed in the pattern of Los Angeles. Or maybe it would be a city not influenced by the construction of the Erie Canal, instead a Canal would have been built to the Delaware River and Philadelphia would be greater. These are all conditions which have to be considered.
In my favorite "What if..." scenario, consolidation of New York would not have happened, but I would NOT be living in the City of Brooklyn, for the same forces that consolidated Brooklyn, consolidated New York, and for the latter not to have occured, these forces would have to be absent, and the earlier would fail to occur.
Now how the area would have developed had it remained a patchwork of separate towns, villages and cities, including the development of it's Rapid Transit system, is a question I once posed to this board. It was not answered in the manner I had hoped.
And IF the Queen had balls, she would be the King
Well, in a manner of speaking, yes.
Other than imagining New York without the subway (unthinkable), some of the other landmarks come to mind, most notably the Empire State Building. It dominates midtown as does no other building. The city wouldn't be the same without it.
Development in New York would change direction. With no where to go downtown people would start moving uptown and to Queen, Bronx, and Brooklyn using the elevated. With a sprawl like this skyscrapers wouldn’t be built. Chicago would win the early skyscraper war. Latter on the elevated would be torn down because of people complaints of it blocking the sun. Trolley service would be down every main street. The Times would never move into their Times Square office because of real need to. Because if this, the theater district would stay downtown. More houses are built on Station Island, Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx which are consolidated into the City of New York.
Let’s say that the people in government stay the same, and so Robert Moses steps into the picture. With small apartment buildings every where and a somewhat adequate trolley and the amount of money not use in building a subway. Robert Moses builds the most grand, largest, and extensive system of high way in New York. This causes a late development boom in New York. Larger buildings are put up. And soon after that the trolley shuts down and are replaced by busses that are controlled by the NYSTA (New York Surface Transportation Authority).
And so goes the New York without being the “Crossroads of the World”
Just a thought about what would happen with out the subway:-)
Simply put, there would be no NYC, as we know it, without the subway.
Peace,
Andee
I try to imagine southern Brooklyn without subway service over the Manhattan Bridge, and without a replacement in service.
South Bronx, 1970s.
DATE: SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 13, 2000
TIME: 10:00 AM
PLACE: 167TH STREET STATION #4 LINE BRONX PLATFORM
*****NOTE*****
BRING FLASHLIGHTS AND WEAR STURDY SHOES. THERE IS A STEEP HILL TO DESCEND.
If you plan on going, PLEASE let me know.
For more info, E-mail me at: Mark618@webtv.net
The next Metrocard collector show is Saturday 2/12/2000 at BagaTelle Restaurant 12 St. Marks Place (8th St) 10 AM to 6PM.
Will it be better than the first one? Only time will tell.
Unlike the other tours, this one I WON'T be attending.
Also recommend someone check the amount of snow on that slope. It's hard enough to climb even without the snow on it.
--Mark
Since these SubTalk field trips seem like something that need a lot of time to plan, I'm planning a farewell to the unrebuilt Franklin Avenue Shuttle this July, 1998. I intend to start the meeting at Prospect Park and take it over to Franklin. If someone is familiar with the project, they can point out any changes that will occur for the renovation.
You must RSVP this trip, or the Farewell to the Culver Shuttle trip I am planning, by January 1, 1965.
Hope its as good as the Farewell to the Beach Pneumatic Tube trip I am planning (Remember, NOBODY tells Boss Tweed!). Followed,of course, by dinner at Pete Stuyvensent's place.
I'm sorry, but the WayBak machine is unavailable, as Mr. Peabody has reserved it for him and Sherman for the next several eons.
When it is available, we will plan a Farewell trip to the Composites on the IRT Subway, as they are banished to the Manhattan Els.
Maybe we can take a couple gate cars off the Myrtle El, and run a fan to Coney Island
To Be Scheduled for December 15, 1945? a subtalk farewell trip around the City hall Loop. We will ride around the loop a few times, hopefully on Gibbs Hi-V's, examine the stained glass vaults in the ceiling (hopefully the plaza above has not yet been asphalted overthese), take flash photos on the platform, (with real flash bulbs since it's 1945), go upstairs to the "rotunda" to examine and photograph the original Victorian style wooden change booth, and any old Interborough or Board of Transportation, Interborough style, wall maps. Will ascend to City Hall Park for group and individual photos around both kiosks. Once back downstairs, subtalkers, please do not try and make off with the remaining ticket choppers, by carrying them onto the uptown local.
Each subtalker present will be presented with copies of New York Times articles about the 12/31/45 closure, they will just have to wait awhile for microfilm and photocopiers to be invented.
Since we won't have emails we have to start notifying others immediately with manual Olivettis or Underwoods and a whole mess of carbons.
subtalker trip scheduled for 1954: lets all go to Brooklyn and ride the last MacDonald Ave. trolley!!
trip scheduled for July 1958: Farewell to the Polo Grounds Shuttle : )
we will meet at 167th St. and ride back and forth from 155th St. a few times. Existing stairways at the bridge on 155th St. will be photgraphed, we will examine Sedgewick Ave. and Jerome Ave. stations THOROUGHLY and photograph the platforms, signage, overhead bridge, and all staircases and fare control areas. All subtalkers present will be "deputized" tour leaders for the Polo Grounds shuttle outing to take place 31 years later 12/16/99.
The Last entence should read: "All subtalkers present will be "deputized" .... 41 years later 12/16/99. Hey, math was never my strong point.
Can't we postpone the trip until November 1, 1918?
wayne
Sounds good to me. I'll meet you at Prospect Park around 5:50 PM. I'll just hop on the BRT at Park Row. I sure hope the strike doesn't delay my trip.
Its really getting to be a LONG winter..isn't it folks?
Yep! Anyway, I'm only two numbers away from completing the low series of BU Trailer cars - only ones I haven't got are #80 and #100.
We're a fun bunch, aren't we?
wayne :o>
Today was a great day! I walked from the Battery to Marble Hill.
My feet will probably be SORE tomorrow.
Nahh, I wouldn't worry about it. Both my friends Enward Lewis and Edward Luciano should be there. In fact, Eddie's operating the train - just got an assignment on the Brighton Line outta Park Row :)
(You figure out which Eddie)
--Mark
If you're going to be on that train how about making one of your great videos? Your pal Eddie will probably let you ride up front with him. You'll be able to get some great shots that way. I'm dying (aren't you too?) to see the new tunnel construction entering Prospect Park. Maybe you can get Eddie to drive a bit slower than the posted 6 miles per hour so you don't miss any details of the new tunnel walls. This would be a perfect time to get shots of the new tunnel walls before they get all scuffed and smuged up from the effects of time. Wish I could be there with you but my wife will never let us leave the secret little hut we live in on Atoll K.
Alan Glick
and.. dont forget to tell the conductor you want off at Consumer's Park. (which will be ignored)
I'll have to make sure my silent camera is available for the trip! It'll make a fine addition to the collection.
--Mark
Yeah, that motorman, Luciano, is supposed to let me ride with him in the cab ;-)
I was hoping to introduce you all to riding on the platform. The best place to be is on the platform of the second or third car, that way we'll be able to hear all of the bell signals!
Karl--- you have mentioned riding between the 2nd and 3rd cars on the gate cars, and the enjoying the bell signals. Could you describe what the bell signals were all about? I guess they had to do with the doors. Were there separate conductors in each car? Did each one ring a bell? How did the motorman know if all the cars were closed? Someone suggested that the gate cars had no fans. How did people manage without air conditioning? Did they wilt in the summer months, or even worse spoil?
Hey Paul...on the gate cars there were no doors!
A gateman was stationed between every pair of cars.
There was no gateman on the front or rear platforms as passengers
were not permitted there. When the rearmost gateman had secured
his pair of gates, he pulled the bell cord twice. The next gateman
heard the bell, and after he was set, passed the signal forward,
etc., until the motorman got the two bells up front. No indication
light, no obstruction sensors. Also no A/C or even fans...that's
what big open windows were for.
hey jeff--- i really don't have an image of the gate cars in actual operation. i saw them at the museum, but it really didn't register on me. your explanation was clear and concise, although i must admit to being a little disappointed that i did not have to refer to the handbook of physics and chemistry to understand it.
heypaul, It looks like Jeff H has answered your question. I will just elaborate a little. A five car train required a five man crew, four gatemen and a motorman. Each BU or gate car had a bell cord which ran through the car and was attached to a bell clapper on each end platform. The bell signal was passed forward, starting with the last gateman. A gateman in the middle of the train could not relay the signal until he got the bell from the next man to the rear. These were manual bells on the car's end platforms, and if you were on the station platform, you could hear the bells as they progressed up the train. Two tugs produced a cling-cling, which was to be interpreted as "OK my gates are closed". It was really neat to hear!
Regarding Air Conditioning... Most stores, offices and business places were not air conditioned in those days. I worked for four years in the mid 1950's in a bank that was not air conditioned. None of the trains trolleys, or buses were air conditioned. You could sweat at work, sweat on the trip home, and then sweat at home. Window fans were a very popular item in those days. Most movie theatres were air conditioned, and a lot of people went to the movies at night, if nothing more than to cool off. I knew a family in Brooklyn who drove down to Plum Beach or Canarsie Pier in the evening to enjoy the cool breezes. As the 1950's progressed, more and more business places became air conditioned. You know the A/C story on the subway trains.
I hear it might be flu season by then.
Well in any case, we'll meet at Franklin Avenue station at 6:45PM. Let's stay in the last car; it probably won't be so crowded.
Wayne
How 'bout Consumer's Park?
I don't know. I hear some trains don't stop there.
In fact, I heard those trains do a mighty good impression of a car which wouldn't arrive on the scene for another 30 years. Of course, having a downhill run doesn't hurt. Going uphill, it's more like being on a certain group of cars which would arrive, oh, 70-odd years later.
OK, but make sure I don't get too close to the brewery.
Wayne
Sure, we can down a few brews there before heading out for some railfanning on the Franklin?
Doug aka BMTman
I've never ridden in one of those motorless trailers- my buddy at the 36th st Yard says they sometimes couple them back to back during one of these strikes.....
OK, this is getting to be a bit silly now. lol
Ooohhhhh, bad choice. Definite no-no.
Could we wait till after June 6, 1944. A friend of mine invited me up to his beach house in Normandy, France that week. He says its real peaceful and quiet there.
I a also want to visit my wife s family in the Philippines on 6 June 44, and see if I can see MacArthur surfing in the Leyte Gulf
I'd like to go back to January 19, 1997
and re-write history
1/19/97? What history was made that day?
That was the Willy B collision, right?
No that was June 5, 1995, 6:12AM.
Wayne
Well, Mr. Bill was sworn in for his second term the next day. Don't know if Monica was there.-)
I know, the day the R-142 contracts were let.
I sure hope that you patented your time machine.
It's called Spliff, Gaunga, or (for the layman), weed.
We could also include a Farewell to the Triplexes fantrip on July 23, 1965. It would have to be during rush hours, as these behemoths are running on the West End. I'll be telling anyone who will listen what a sacrilegeous act this is, retiring equipment which is still in tip-top shape. Since we left the city for home that morning, I won't accidentally run into my younger self.
Went on my first railfan trip of the new year:
L: Boarding 4563 at Livonia. There were 2 trackmen working on the switch. The horn was struggling to scream. There was a pink substance on the railfan window. The new transfer at Bway Jct look real nice. Still need work. Love that curve between Wilson and Halsey. GT's between Dekalb and Jefferson. A GT @ Bushwick-Aberdeen. Why?????
Got off Lorimer. The Metropolitan/Lorimer complex look real nice even though I notice that the Metropolitan tile work is offset somewhat.
G: Boarded at Metro. Do not remmber car#. It was OPTO. The Bklyn bound platform at 21St-Van Alst need a remodeling job. Missing tile, and water flowing down from above. Got off at Court Sq. The walkway was not that long and interesting.
F: Boarded 5766 at 23St-Ely. Took it to Steinway St. Ran errand.
R: Boarded 6050 at Steinway. Still have the incadescent lights in the mezznine. The exit is at the middle of the street. Notice the tunnel between 36 and QP. The tracks are in place. After QP, there were red lights on the exress tracks. Notice a couple of R32's running on the R. When we got to 5Av, I was looking for that secret passageway that everyone was talking about but came up with the rooms at both end of the platform. N trains terminated at 57St. There was a R32 N at 57St but I opted to stay on the R. Took it to Dekalb where a strange incident took place(next post).
Walk through Downtown Bklyn to the Transit Museum. Picked a few items.
A: Boarded 5432 at Jay St. I looked at the motorman's door. I now know what everybody is talking about. That door is small. Zipped along Fulton St. As we passed Lafayette Av, there was a guy coming up from the Manhattan bound tracks. He must have dropped something on the bed. Took it Bway-ENY. Boarded a slant L home to Livonia.
Why is there a GT at Bushwick-Aberdeen? Also between Dekalb and Jefferson?
Was there a track that lead from the Manhattan bound to the lay up track between Halsey and Myrtle? I do not think there is on there now...
My battery is dead so I cant take no pics. Today is the perfect day too. Oh well..........
3TM
What did you think of that 2" diameter cab door window on that R-44?
I know that "Fishbone" could not fit through there.......
3TM
A very strange inciden took place today at Dekalb. I ask for the Kozmo.com Metrocard and the station agent there started to ask all type of questions that was not neccesary. After 20 Questions, she told me that I cannot have one. When I arrived at home, I told my Dad who worked at JaySt and he told me that I should have took down her name and report it........ Do you have to be a collector or a tourist to receive this card? Does anybody have a list of stations to receive these cards? Thanks......
3TM
PS: Another Station Agent was sleeping on the job......
The Station Agent was wrong. ANY customer can get a special MetroCard. As far as the sleeper- you should call up!
I posted the list about 1 week ago.The card will be around for 6 months!
Subway stations typically have one MetroCard to sell at a time. I ask if it's a graphics or a plain one. In addition if there's a MVM machine in the station it might have a different MC. You'll need to use the MVM if you want a "Fun Pass", i.e. a day pass @ 4.00 good until 3 AM.
I don't know why the Station Agent was so rude, my feeling is that it used to be more of a problem then it is now, i.e. they know their future is tied to "customer service" because in the not too distant future that "service" will be outside vs. inside the booth.
BTW, In case you haven't figured it out yet, the Subway-Buff is a Station Agent and is the wave of the future, i.e. he's a very good one.
Mr t__:^)
A possible thought on this matter is that some agents are collectors of these cards too. They may only wish to hold these cards for their buddies. They also like selling them to collectors, at a price. For the most part, the agents are usually helpful.
A few station agents have been kind enough to look at their own internal lists and refer me to stations selling certain cards. One even called ahead for me, to save me a trip.
When the list of stations is posted on Subtalk, try to adhere to that.
Joe, you make a good point. There may be three kinds of Stn Agents:
1. Don't care, will try to retain card you give them & throw it away.
(that's probally what the policy is)
2. Helpful, understand what you want, but don't save any liquadated cards, so can only point you to a station or MVM that might be selling the card you want. Will return your old card with new one (without being asked).
3. Collector, wants to keep the cards you turn in for trading, but while they're in the booth they're probally asking for trouble from mngt if they hand out "samples", i.e. liquated cards.
At anyone time they probally have four types of cards in the booth: Pre-valued (in wrapper), liquated (no value or expired unlimited), defective (if they let them out someone will try to get a refund again), encoded stock (ready for them to put value on). It isn't hard to realize that they might easily get into trouble if they have various stacks of cards in the booth. What's the boss going to think if he/she sees they stuff a card in their pocket. Now you add a very small work area and serveal other folks comming and going. This all spells Trouble with a capital T.
BTW, MC swap meet this Saturday, same place as October.
(Baga Telle Resturant 12 St. Marks Place (8th St bet 2nd & 3rd Ave))
Mr t__:^)
FYI: in case you still didn't get the card, check Bowling Green, lower level; that's where I got mine.
Joe C
Thanks for the responses. I did see the list, thats why I went to Dekalb. I think Wall St(2,3) sells them. I will look for them there.........
3TM
I do not know the specifics, but the booth could have run out of the Kozmo cards and had to use other cards pending further deliveries. I am sorry you did not get a card and would like to suggest you visit one of the other stations on the liost I posted.
I hereby declare myself to be the village idiot. I at any time I make a serious post, my name shall be damned and I will be forced to change it.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
And as an aside, my Utica Avenue Subway is progressing nicely, I just need to get the foam walls so the wooden trains from the Sixth Avenue El, which will run in the subway, can derail on the many Malbone style S curves on the line with little damage. The line is to run out to Riis Park, and then into the ocean where it will turn sharply downward and connect to the Tokyo Subway at an undetermined point.
My second subway is currently planned and it will have 12 tracks for various express service. It will run under Exchange Alley and Marketfield Street. The next two segments will run under Theater Alley and Sniffen Court, and the last section will run under Pomander Walk. These streets will have to be extended into one another in order to allow the subway to run. The extension will be roundabout, and will intersect with themselves at several points. There will be service to the Five Points, Union Station and Laguardia International Airport. Service may also be provided to O'Hare and Heathrow Airports with one new station in the future.
Uh oh, heypaul's got competition!
If it's competition for the title of village idiot, I know when I am beat. My friend of many names has earned the right to that title.
Be nice, he lives not too from from you if Jeff R and I think who it is.
Does anyone know if the LIRR MUs have a door indicator similar to the ones in the subways? I don't remember seeing one. The conductor usually give the person two short buzzes telling that it is safe to start the train. I don't even think that the key needs o be turn in the MDC to take power. Sometimes I see the motorman close the door and buzzes the conductor without seeing that all door are closed then power up the train. I don't think there has ever been a accident.
There is an indication circuit, just like NYCT, and
there is a switch labeled "Side Door Bypass" in the engineer's
(they are engineers, not motormen, on the LIRR) cab.
Many posters on this site have good ideas. Lets put them to work. We should start a subtalk group that puts possitive pressure in the interest of the riding public. We all that the straphangers Campain A hate group against motor vehicles and not a lover of mass transit. Let let Jay street know what we really want. Lets report Lazy transit workers who ruin the good name of the majority of the hard working people of the MTA
The following 4 questions are designed to stimulate the mine, provolk a responce and to state a debate. Have fun with them and please try to list pros/cons and ideas on how the issues could acutally be put into practice.
ISSUE 1) New York Subway Railroad? Would it be better if the NYCS operated as an FRA Railroad similar to the PATH. THis would mean such FRA things like reasonable hours of service, grab irons, ditch lights, speed signaling, etc.
ISSUE 2) Mail and Express. Would it be a good idea if the TA took a page from the Amtrak playbook and began to offer mail and express freight service to all its stations. The cargo would either be carried in head end cars or special trains of converted cars in old classes. People would drop off cargo at one station and it would be whisked to anyother station. Workfare slaves would be put to work sorting and lifting.
ISSUE 3) Push Pull. Recent studies have shown that push/pull trainsets are cheaper to maintain than MU's. After all with MU's every car has its own set of motors and control equipment. Given this do you think the TA should convert locomotive hauled trainsets.
ISSUE 4) Driver or Engineer? Which term better describes a TA train operator? Or aside from T/O (which I view as timid PC BS) which one would you call the person who operates the subway train.
1) Railroad vs. subway: NYC needs at least some overnight service. I don't see the need to treat every MU as a locomotive. If we want to cut schedule hours, we can just do it.
2) Package express: You'd need unused side platforms, messengers, freight elevators, and a useful destination. The useful destination is the airport, when heavy traffic makes for a long ride by truck. If the N ran to Astoria, and a train on the A could run to JFK, a head (or tail) car could be limited to messengers with mail carts. They'd unload at the airport for airmail out.
3) Push-pull. TA cars have a hard enough time making the grade as it is.
4) How about Captain? Subways and buses are the Ships of the City.
I think Larry sums up my feeling pretty much.
Except for #2. That is something I've always thought would be a great idea. The problem now is that the TA is going to OPTO, i.e. no operator just one conductor, so adding another job (pushing mail/packages on/off the train) ain't in the cards. Add to this the LABOR required at stations, even if it was only some of them seems to kill it. You post got it rattling around in mind again just the same.
Mr t__:^)
I don't imagine TA employees providing freight service. What I imagine is messenger services with specially designed mail carts using the subway, in specially designed cars, and paying a fee for the carts.
It might slow down trains, however. Perhaps the idea only makes sense if there is an unused platform and track that can be used for special freight trains to the airports, avoiding the traffic.
For several years now, the USPS has used BART between Fremont & the Oakland Westy station to expedite Express Mail (Oakland West is very close to the Main Oakland sorting facility. The worker is driven to the Fremont station, uses the elevator(think ADA) rolls a cart onto the train and reverses the procedure @ O. W.
Issue 1: No.
Issue 2: No.
Issue 3: No.
Issue 4: Given a choice between "driver" and "engineer", it would have to be "engineer", though a subway train does not have an engine, per se. The term "driver" defines one who guides a free-wheeling vehicle like an automobile or a carriage, and can't apply to any fixed guideway vehicle, i.e., a railway locomotive or MU car.
Well in the UK they call their T/O's drivers.
And they have "Guard"s for C/O's
1. No
2. It would take a lot of extra people, cars, and space for a system that carries um-teen million a day
3. The cars are slow enough
4. Neigher - how about Controler, and give them a real power trip
ISSUE 3) Push Pull ...
I don't think a push-pull unit would make it up any of the upgrades in the East River tunnels, nor over the Manhattan & Williamsburgh Bridges, even if they ran empty.
--Mark
OK, here's my (humble) opinion:
1. No. There is no clear advantage to this. The TA would need exemptions from nearly every rule just to maintain service (and probably to preserve their sanity).
I prefer the exact opposite. If some sections of the LIRR and MNCR became isolated, autonomous operations (at least during the day), some creative semi-rapid transit hybrid service could be offered. Both the LIRR and MNCR penetrate areas of the city and suburbs that merit subway-type service.
2. No. The messenger business in NYC is going downhill due to fax machines and email. The private sector already does this, they use whatever means (bike, foot via bus or subway, car/van) most suitable for the job. Plus there are social equity issues involved, i.e., what happens in a crowded train when the package space is empty and customers allege discrimination? Plus access issues, how do you safely dray the parcels from the train/platform to the ultimate destination. Since packages need to be delivered when stores and ofices are open, demand for the package system would be highest when passenger demand is also highest, sort of self-defeating.
I'm much more in favor of surface street congestion mitigation (private auto restrictions, in-vehicle parking meters, contraflow lanes, transitways, etc.) that will make the existing parcel delivery systems work better.
3. Yes, the idea should be considered. I wrote a paper on this when I was employed by the city some time ago. I felt:
a. A 10-car IRT train has about 4000-4600 horsepower. It should be possible to construct an IRT-dimensioned locomotive of about 2000-2300 horsepower. Two could bracket a train, and operate in MU.
b. The locomotives could provide crash protection. This would allow very lightweight coaches to be constructed (maybe from carbon composites).
c. Since the coaches would have no underbody equipment (only HVAC) they could be constructed to a low-floor design, or perhaps double decked. They could be extremely short (25') with stub axles and thus perhaps slightly wider as well. Undercutting existing trackways by about 7"-10" could make a double decked car feasible. The cars would board from different sides, one side for each level, with platform edge doors.
d. The drawbacks, of course, are many. The locomotives would have to be light enough to negotiate els, and the coaches low enough to access a maintenance base, and emergency evacuation (such as NFPA-130) would have to be considered. Friction modifiers may be needed to negotiate grades with only 8 powered axles per train. BUT.....Compare the cost of so modifying an existing route vs. construction of a parallel one...Maybe it deserves a further look?
Zone stopping is another idea (20 car trains with 3 crew members, stopping 10 cars each at alternate stations, at some key stations both sections open in sequence). Perhaps a "virtual skip-stop", a way to increase linehaul capacity maybe by 1/3 or so.
Boston considered it to expand Blue Line service from 4 to 6 cars on the cheap, and actually did it for awhile at North Station Orange Line (platform shortened due to construction). Yes, signal and power systems would need to be upgraded......I don't mean to simplify issues, just introduce a concept! BTW, PATH sort of does this at Exchange Place.
4. I always liked the traction lineage of "motorman", but I'm willing to favor "motorperson". Opinions on PC aside, if I waited tables for a living, I wouldn't want to be called a "waitress" simply because the majority of my colleagues might be female!
If you missed the Farewell to the Myrtle Avenue tour yesterday, I made a nice comment. Nobody got it because I didn't write it down.
If the BU cars were still running here, then the BUs would be replaced by the Bus.
Cute, very cute!
Why does the G have express ROWs at Bedford/Nostrand and Classon, and an island platform at B/N?
At Classon, the westbound has a ROW for tracks, but no tracks.
This supposed to be for the IND expansion that was planned, only to have the depression and WWII get in the way?
www.forgotten-ny.com
From what I've been told, there was supposed to be another branch off the Crosstown line, connecting with the Myrtle/Central/Rockaway line at Bedford Nostrand. That's where the 2 tracks that descend north of BN were supposed to go. Why Classon Ave. has a middle trackway for an express track is unknown to me.
You got it. The proposed line would have continued along Lafayette Ave., then turned slightly at Stanhope St. to align with the Myrtle/Central Ave. line. The middle track at Bedford-Nostrand probably would have been used for trains terminating from one direction or another.
Actually this was planned pre-IND as part of the 1910 Triborough Subway Plan for which the Nassau Street Subway is part. Supposedly this section of the Lafayette Avenue Subway got built before the IND plan was even developed
The IND Second System considered this section later.
I wasn't aware that any of the Triboro planned Lafayette St. subway was ever built. This might explain why Classon has an unused middle trackway.
These are lay up tracks that were going to be used by by the SOUTH JAMAICA trains from Foch/120 ave line.
The BMT thought it was going to be awarded the contract for the crosstown line as part of the TriBorough Syste / Dual Contracts and had plans for a 4 track crosstown line. It never happened.
--Mark
Hylan blocked all BMT construction,so his IND system could be built. The Croostown line was suppose to be part of a loop route from downtown Brooklyn via Laffayette ave to the Broadway el, into the Nassau st line with connections to the Broadway subway[at the bowery,Manhattan Bridge and East River tunnel back to Brooklyn] When the IND came into play,these plan were revised somewhat where as the crosstown line did not directly join the Broadway EL but its replacement subway at Stanhope st,going north to join the MYRTLE/SOUTH JAMAICA/ROCKAWAY branch of the SECOND SYSTEM.
Actually this was planned pre-IND as part of the 1910 Triborough Subway Plan for which the Nassau Street Subway is part. Supposedly this section of the Lafayette Avenue Subway got built before the IND plan was even developed
The IND Second System considered this section later.
Ancient signage in the IND:
--"Subway Sun" don't litter signs, as well as "don't lean over platform" sign, at Broadway (G). Looks like an Oppie.
--"No Smoking/Spitting" as well as another "don't lean over platform" sign, York St (F)
www.forgotten-ny.com
Until recently, there was an original IND sign at the Manhattan bound platform at Rockaway & Fulton St. which said "Transfer at Hoyt. St. for trains to Church Ave. and Queens". It was a throwback to the days when Rockaway Ave. was the terminal for the A line. I remember it being there as late as 1992.
I wouldn't be surprised if some eagle-eyed railfan made off with it.
Doug aka BMTman
I have an alibi. You don't have a case. It's a setup. lol.
I'll get one of New York's finest on the case: Jeffrey Rosen. He'll get to the bottom of this. :-)
Doug aka BMTman
Leave me out of this. I still don't know how the cane/wicker/straw (or whatever you call it) seat from a Myrtle Av Q-car got into my basement.
Just don't let the police find out.
Simple. You were suffering from Elevated closure railfan syndrome. Symptoms include the unstoppable impulse to ride an elevated line back and forth until the very hour of closure, in which severe kleptomania ensues forcing the sufferer to grab anything that wasn't nailed down. You were not legally responsibe for your crime.
Hey, its not as zany as the Twinkie defense.
when Trans from the IRT to the BMT at Times Sq right before you go down a short set of stairs above them there is a sign painted on the wall pointing to Canarse Trains...
Huh!
That would make more sense at Union Sq.????
I know thats why Iwassuprised to see it at TS
That sign has been discussed several times in this forum. I think Kevin Walsh has that picture on his website, Forgotten NY. By the way, if you go down into the crossover tunnel at the East NY LIRR station painted on the wall by the E/B Stairway it says "Trains to Jamaica and the Rockaways". That was a throwback to the time when there was a switch from the LIRR Bklyn line to their Rockaway Branch.
Does anyone remember that when the first R44's were delivlered that besides the airbag suspention that was replaced that some also had carpeted floors?
I not only remember the dark red floor but I remember the five second delay from the doorchime to the door's actual closing cycle. Why did they paint over the black mask on the TA R44s and R46s? It really complimented the blue striping. Chop off the extra exterior guard lights, drop the maximun speed down by 20 MPH, dump the RT5C package and you really have a car to be proud of. Bring on the 68s!
What about the tiled sign and the 6th Avenue 14th Street downtown station which reads "Hudson Tunnels to New Jersey, Newark, etc. (I don't have the photo in front of me so I don't remember the actual wording). The tiles there are bright red.
But the PATH still has tunnels under the Hudson to New Jersey, Newark etc.
True, but that is no longer the name of the system and all sineage relating to Hudson and Manhattan or Hudson Tubes was replaced in the mid 1960's. I find the tile at that station to be amusing. Similar to the tile at Cortlandt Street on the BMT which has a sign pointing to Hudson Tubes.
14st on the 6th Ave line also indicates the direction you should take to use the Hudson Tubes.
-Hank
Up until late 1998 the Chambers Street "A" platform had tiles which still proudly read "H and M" beneath the beautiful Prune tile band. Many of them had been covered with black paint, but quite a few had the paint scraped off, revealing the original caption.
Wayne
I suggest that the NYPD institute a new high-profile unit: "IND Sign Theft TaskForce".
This way Rudy could get alot of milage from it and make the railfans happy.
And of course, once the culprit(s) are brought to justice, Rudy would verbally congratulate New York's Finest for a job well done.
(Obviously, this would mean no raises for the hard working cops, just verbal accolades as per usual.)
PS one prime suspect: heypaul
LOL
Doug aka BMTman
You're not pulling a Mr. Bill (Clinton) now, are you?
Rim shot!
"Forgotten" Subway Sun Signs:
There's one at Flushing Avenue too, it was there as recently as January 28, 1999.
wayne
>>>"Forgotten" Subway Sun Signs:
There's one at Flushing Avenue too, it was there as recently as January 28, 1999. <<<
We looked for it at Flushing Avenue today but did NOT find one.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Even though the "Subway Sun" was put out by the TA for a while (thus explaining its being in the IND station), it is a survival of the IRT.
I remember the BMT had it in the 40s and 50s(Subway Sun)I remember they even had a Miss Subway Sun Contest
Don't know if it's still there, but at 14th-8 Ave IND - the south end of the northbound platform still had the E train sign on the express track.
Wayne
That's gone, as that end of the station is being completely rehabbed. Until recently, all 6th Ave local stations had this on their signs:
"For Broadway Brooklyn, transfer at Delancy St. for the J"
When I first started exploring the transit system, I didn't understand why this was pointed out so much. I finally found an old map, and saw the old KK route, and I put 2 and 2 together.
Land at McArthur Field--Long Island--Which if any,subway cars run from there into Manhattan.Just tell me who to contact.Thanks.
I think you'd have to take a cab to the Ronkonkoma LIRR Station.
Sorry if this has been mentioned. I haven't had much time lately to visit SubTalk, or be on line period. Last Monday I operated a solid train of R38's on the E, north motor 4024. Friday, I operated 4027, but that and it's mate were mixed with 8 M/K R32's. I also saw another train running around with the same make up of equipment. I expected to see more R38's on the E, but apparently some are running on the B since that line needs more trainsets. The Pitkin and Jamaica R32's are all mixed in the same consists, even on the R. I don't see the cars returning to their respective lines till when they are due for inspection well after the GO is over. Perhaps some Phase II Jamaica cars will wind up on the C temporarily. Don't be suprised if normal service is restored before Feb.28. My contacts tell me that the work is ahead of schedule.
(Work of ahead of schedule).
Too bad. Since few Subtalkers live in Chelsea, most of the talk has been how nice it is to have those extra trains from Brooklyn. And wouldn't it be nice if the E ran to Euclid and express on 8th Avenue, eliminating the Canal St merge, with the C local to WTC?
Honesty requires me to note that those Es are 2/3 empty to Brooklyn at rush hour. So we'll probably get stuck with the C again.
I go through WTC frequently. The work area is behind temporary plywood walls so nothing can be seen. You can hear jack hammers and smell the diesel fumes. Most of the A line platform has the plywood blocking the view of the WTC platform.While walking to the A line a view can be seen of 1-2 work trains parked on the WTC tracks (in the WTC platform area)
I had the oppurtnity to walk through the new connection from 21st to 36st with some Track Dept people the other night.
The S/B track is 100% installed, but the middle third stll needs the roadbed poured. Also the 3rd rail is only installed on the first 1000' down the ramp from 36st.
The N/B has only rails lying on the floor from N/O 21st to the bottom of the ramp up to 36st. The track on the ramp has tie blocks installed, but needs the roadbed poured.
Standing in the quiet, yet unused tunnel, one hears what sounds either like a muffled waterfall or rainforest.
There are serious leaks in approx every 2nd to 3rd ceiling
beams.
As there's alot of road salt leaching along with the water, a white stain around the edge of each leak "fingerprints" the location of the leak!
There are 3 spots on each track where one needs an umbrella for protection from the falling water!
As the drains and pumps are new, thew remove the water quickly. Also, there's no debris to plug the drains, at least not yet!
This section of tunnel was built in 1998-9. I was able to look up to the buildings in Queens Plaza while walking through the connector last spring, so these celing beams are only 8 months (OR LESS) old!
Eight months and that much water is leaking in already? I hope the MTA hasn't signed off on anything yet, because it sounds like this section of tunnel is going to need some major adjustments by the contractor and builder before it enters service.
Good lord, has any part of the 63rd. St line NOT have some sort of problems after construction? I remember the low-quality concrete fiasco many years ago, then the need to replace all the tracks. Oy vey!
Remember that this tunnel was built, sunk & put togather vs. dug. Others like it don't leak, but this one has had a serious problem with that since day one ... it's a little scary.
Mr t__:^)
The method of construction does not matter-it is quality control ( or the lack of it ) in both design and construction that is the cause of the water condition.
Thurston, I think he's talking about the new connector tunnel, not the one under the river.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As there's alot of road salt leaching along with the water...
Actually, it is calcium carbonate from the concrete, caused by poor quality waterproofing.
Tell these guys - GET THE GROUT OUT! SOON!
(I did not mean to shout at anyone)
wayne
I had the oppurtnity to walk through the new connection from 21st to 36st with some Track Dept people the other night.
The S/B track is 100% installed, but the middle third stll needs the roadbed poured. Also the 3rd rail is only installed on the first 1000' down the ramp from 36st.
The N/B has only rails lying on the floor from N/O 21st to the bottom of the ramp up to 36st. The track on the ramp has tie blocks installed, but needs the roadbed poured.
Standing in the quiet, yet unused tunnel, one hears what sounds either like a muffled waterfall or rainforest.
There are serious leaks in approx every 2nd to 3rd ceiling
beams.
As there's alot of road salt leaching along with the water, a white stain around the edge of each leak "fingerprints" the location of the leak!
There are 3 spots on each track where one needs an umbrella for protection from the falling water!
As the drains and pumps are new, thew remove the water quickly. Also, there's no debris to plug the drains, at least not yet!
This section of tunnel was built in 1998-9. I was able to look up to the buildings in Queens Plaza while walking through the connector last spring, so these celing beams are only 8 months (OR LESS) old!
Unless you're trying really hard to make it waterproof, it'll leak. Since the subway doesn't have to be 100% waterproof, it isn't.
-Hank
I do remember a SERIOUS leak near the sharp curve between Jamaica-Van Wyck and Sutphin Blvd on the Archer Ave. line, which resulted in the entire trackbed in that area being replaced.
When I was with NYCTA in the 1980s, there was a major dispute with the contractors over leakage both into the Archer Avenue tunnels and into the 63rd Street tunnel under the river (the lower level of this structure, intended for LIRR trains, was in fact completely full of water. All underground structures leak, but the leakage should not be so major that it threatens structural integrity. Major work was done, as noted by the previous post, on the Archer line, and also in the 63rd Street tunnel, before their final acceptance by the TA. The leakage described in the new connection sounds unacceptable to me; I hope somebody at NYCT is looking.
(Consequences of leaks)
If water is getting on the beams (esp. inside wall and ceilings) and the beams are made of steel, won't the beams rust, and the whole thing have to be rebuilt? Or are the beams coated with waterproof materials?
If the steel beams rust, then most subway tunnels would have collapsed decades ago. I'm sure all load bearing steel beams are treated to resist or prevent rust.
Steel that is exposed is painted-beams encased in concrete are uncoated-the concrete would not adhere.
Odd...Rebar is painted.
-Hank
Almost all new rebar is coated with a lime green epoxy-like substance that protects the rebar from rust. Structural steel rusting is bad enough, but when rebar begins to rust, very bad things happpen. This is due to the fact that steel expands when it rusts. If the steel is encased in concrete the way rebar normally is, and begins to expand due to rust, the concrete will eventually crack and break away. Bad news if that concrete is supposed to be holding up something.
-- David
Chicago, IL
How much extra would real waterproofing had added to the construction cost? How does that amount compare with what will be needed over the years to pump out water?
What has become of the "8" train (as seen in the
r14 IRT illustrated roster)??
The "8" train was the designation for the Third avenue "el". Which has
been torn down.
Peace,
Andee
Service was discontinued in 1973 and replaced by a newly created BX55 bus route which made express stops along Third/Webster Aves. (Webster/Washington southbound) and passengers could transfer (free) to/from the subway at Gun Hill/WPR, 149th St-Third Ave and 161st-River Ave. As Subwaysurf said the el was taken down.
Wayne
Yeah, I remember when the Bx 55 would take you from Gun Hill and WPR down to either 161st/River for transfers to the D and 4, or 149th/3rd for the 2/5. But that service was truncated to 149th/3rd to 210/Webster only about 12 years ago.
Remember that free shuttle bus you could get at Marcy Ave. that would take you the rest of the way down Broadway all the way to Kent Ave?
The B24. I see it clearly on my wall map from 1988.
--Mark
Although the 8 train was discontinued in 1973 when the Bronx portion of the Third Avenue El was closed, there have been proposals to use the number for the rush-hour expresses on the 6 line. I last heard of that idea a few years ago. As far as I know, it's no longer under active consideration.
Years ago, the "8" was designated for Astoria when the IRT ran the service. The R12/14/15 cars had these signs even after they were reassigned to mainline service in the 1960's.
Joe C
In addition, "9" was officially Dyre Ave. They liked using Shuttle instead, though. Of course, the "9" is now used on Bway.
Joe C
When skip stop service was introduced on Broadway, the TA claimed it used 9 rather than 8 because 8 might be confused with the former Third Avenue El. Shows a certain absurd paranoia about reusing numbers and letters.
Kind of reminds me of the official reason why the census bureau uses "Hispanic" instead of "Latino." They are afraid "Latino" would be confused with "Ladino," a small ethnic group no one has ever heard of with very few descendents in the United States.
I always assumed "Latino" would be too broad a term, as any group descended from the Romans, and therefore using Romance languages, would be taken as Latino. Yes, no, maybe???
I never use that term. Hispanic is a more accurate term to describe those of Native American descent that speak Latin-based languages. The only thing Latin about Hispanics is that their language (Spanish/Portugese) is derived from Latin. Italians are the only people who should rightfully be called Latino, from a semantic standpoint.
Speaking as a person of Italian descent with a reading knowlege of Latin, I'm forced to say, "HUH?". Present day Italian bears as much resemblance to Latin as does any other Romance language, which is to say, not much.
Illegitamate Non Carborundum
Gezuntheit!
subfan
Translation:
The redbirds are going to be retired soon.
-Hank :)
Hey - stop talking with crackers in your mouth ....
And an "e pluribus unum" to you too! :)
--Mark
[I never use that term. Hispanic is a more accurate term to describe those of Native American descent that speak Latin-based languages. The only thing Latin about Hispanics is that their language {Spanish/Portugese) is derived from Latin.]
Welcome to the politically correct world. "Latino" is much more p.c. than "Hispanic" and hence is preferred on the Upper West Side, in Hillary's campaign headquarters, and in other places where the guilty white, er, p.c. crowd gathers. It's sort of like the relationship between "African-American" and "black."
I don't know why Latino has become the p.c. term. One theory I've heard is that it emphasizes the nonwhite racial character of most people to whom it applies, while Hispanic makes reference to Spanish origin.
Techicnally Latino, is not only Spanish Portugeese, Romanian, even French and Italians are Latinos. Due to their mother language group Latin. That is why Hispanic is being used, for the Spanish
Some Italians people said "Italians" are not Lations & it Italians American but Italians are Lations & where they came from Spain & Italy.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
ARE YOU CRAZY!!!! THAT IS THE MOST INSULTING THING I HAVE EVER HEARD!!! ITALIANS ARE NOT LATINOS. NEVER HAVE BEEN NEVER WILL.
More fuel on the fire- We Italians are not Latins in the sense that the word is used in the US today, which refers to hispanics. But are Latins in the old sense of the word denoting those in the Latin (Roman) world. Interestingly though many Sicilians have Spanish surnames. What does all this have to do with the old 8 train I'll never know.
We Italians are the original Latins. In ancient Rome, they spoke Latin. True, in the sense of what is called Latino in the US, we would not qualify as Latins, but, nevertheless we are. I'm not Teutonic or Slavic or Anglo-Saxon, I'm Latin. That's one part ofthe Caucasian race. We are usually characterized with brown or black hair and brown eyes along with olive skin. WE ARE LATIN.
Romans/Latins
Technically, any of the "Romance Languages" falls under Latin: Italian, French and Spanish.
'Hispanic' is different than 'Latin' because Hispanic is based specifically in relation to anyone born of Spanish heritage in general, regardless of geographic location (i.e., Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Costa Ricans, and any Spanish-speaking peoples of the Central and South American regions).
Interesting question: Would persons from the Phillipines qualify as Hispanic? They are Asian peoples but mixed with a Spanish background.
Doug aka BMTman
Well, I have a Filipina (by ancestry - she was born and raised in the shadow of the Myrtle Avenue el) working for me who would slap you if you called her Hispanic - she'd rather die than be lumped in with the others. But she'd be equally upset if you called her an Asian. Sample of one, admittedly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My wife is Filipina born and raised. Yes they were colonozied by spain for 500 years, got their religion from them, etc, but they have more in common with Malasian and Indonesian then they do with Hispanic. My niece is from Spain, but she does not consider her as Hispanic. In Spain they are from their region etc just like in Italy where your family comes from regionally. Outside of Spain they are Spanish. The same with Filipinos, my wife is Viscayan, someone from Manila would be Tagalog, outside of Filipinos they are Filipino. Both countrys consider a Hispanic someone from the former Spanish and Portugeese colonies in North, South, Central America and the Carribbean. I hope this helps. Oh Rumanians are also Latins(Romania)
No. Filipinos (why it's spelled with an F beats me) are asian/pacific peoples with Spanish ancestory mixed in.
Contrary to poplar belief, most Filipinos do not speak Spanish, but the native tongues of the island tribes.
They spell it with a F because it is a Spanish word, all their dialitics have a lot of Spanish Words, but they also have English. If the National Language (Tagalog from the Manila Area) does not have a word for something, they will use English, My wife and Mother in law, watch the Filipino Station, if is amazing watching sometimes the tv people are speaking in Tagalog and switch into English then back to Tagalog all in one sentence.
They spell it with a F because it is a Spanish word, all their dialitics have a lot of Spanish Words, but they also have English. If the National Language (Tagalog from the Manila Area) does not have a word for something, they will use English, My wife and Mother in law, watch the Filipino Station, if is amazing watching sometimes the tv people are speaking in Tagalog and switch into English then back to Tagalog all in one sentence. To keep this in prospective Manila has a 14 station LRT elevated line, built by the a German/Belgium Company, and they run 2 car artic trains in rush hours, 10 pesos which is about 25-27 cents today
Uh, Dave....Italians only come from Italy! Besides, this is off topic for the message board, you know better than that. If you want to study the various neighborhoods of NYC, go do a segment for transit transit :) -Nick
"8" is a Green sign and would look totally out of plce on Broadway or 7th Avenue. The Red signs are 1, 2, 3, 9, and the unused 12 and 13.
Purple signs are 7 and 11. All others are Green, including unused 8, 10 and 14.
Wayne
Ladino isn't an ethnic group, it's a language. Just as Yiddish is spoken by many Ashkenazic Jews (Jews of Eastern European origin), Ladino is spoken by many Sephardic Jews (Jews of Spanish/Portuguese origin, like some of my ancestors). It is a blend of Hebrew, Portuguese, and Spanish, with a grammar most closely resembling Portuguese. I don't speak it per se, but I can read and understand much of it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The secondary meaning for Ladino is a person of mixed blood.
The next downtown #8 train is approaching 59th Street, 2 stations away. Please be patient.
Does anyone know of any locomotives that can reach:
100, 125, or 150mph in 3 miles
125 or 150mph in 5 miles
Also, does anyone know the distance to top speed for P32DM-AC (Genesis 2) as well as Amtrak's HHL?
This information will be greatly appreciated.
maybe the French TGV???
maybe the French TGV???
High-speed trains, such as the French TGV and the German ICE, tend to have rather poor acceleration. The motive hardware (traction motors, etc) sacrifices acceleration for optimum performance at high speed.
Here in England the following electric locomotives come close to your targets...
Class 87/class 90 (5000hp) top speed 110 mph
class 89 (5850hp) top speed 125 mph
and the fastest..
class 91 (6090hp) top speed 125 mph
The class 91 operates between London Kings Cross-Leeds-Scotland
Regards
Rob:^)
London UK
Speed is not so much a factor in design as accelleration. Locomotive hauled trains generally are limited in their accelleration rate because the draught gear is the weak link. Locomotives accellerate slowly to avoid pull outs or pull aparts. MU cars on the other hand can have high accelleration since everything is pushing.
I thought the Class 91's could go 140 mph and do just that in service.
They are rated at 140 MPH top speed but do not do this in normal service. Two runs were made a few years ago under special conditions
but even with enhanced signalling(flashing green aspects) 140 mph is not an everyday occurance.
Regards
Rob :^)
what is the speed in the chunnel?
what is the speed in the chunnel?
That depends on the type of train. Eurostar trainsets have a maximum speed of 160km/h (100mph) within Eurotunnel; vehicle carriers are limited to 140km/h. Freight and maintainance-of-way trains are limited to 100km/h or less.
Naturally, the Eurostar speed limit is an imposed limit (so they don't run into slower trains :-)), rather than the maximum speed of the equipment. On the LGV routes in France, Eurostar trainsets are capable of 300km/h.
Isn't the load being pulled the major factor limiting acceleration? F=ma, so a=F/m. The heavier the load being pulled, the less acceleration you will get for the same applied force. So you would need to specify the weight of the train being pulled in order to get a meaningful answer.
The load pulled would be between 700,000 and 800,000 pounds.
Gents/Ladies,
here in London a typical busy interchange station on Londons Underground will have (on a 3 shift basis 5am-1pm/12am-9pm/4pm-1am)
.
1 station supervisor (control room)
1 station supervisor (mobile)
1 control room assistant (communications co-ordinator)
2 or more ticket agents in the ticket booking office
4 or more station assistants (platform/customer information/safety)
plus
covering several stations
1 Duty station manager (mobile)
.
How does this relate to NYCTA Subway operations?.
From my own observations I've seen ticket agents and platform conductors but how many staff work at the more busy interchange
stations???
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
[re number of employees at each station]
Every station has at least one station agent on duty 24 hours a day. The only exceptions are the stations on the Dyre Avenue line in the Bronx, which I believe are unstaffed at night (that might have changed recently). Some busier stations have multiple staffed entrances, while some have platform conductors on duty during rush hours. As far as I know, the station managers (whose names are displayed in most stations) work out of the TA headquarters in Brooklyn, rather than out of the stations.
There is also a Station Supervisor(on each shift) who either travels to a group of stations or works in an office at one of their stations. We also have Field Managers(one per group of stations) who visit their stations) or work from an office at one of their stations. We also have 5 field Offices with a supervisor in charge of each (on each shift.)
If given the power to add one line or extention to the system what would it be?
A full length, 4 track 2nd. Ave. line, connected into the Nassau St line so it serves Brooklyn and Queens as well. The northern part would finally replace the old 3rd. Ave. el in the Bronx.
An that situation will celebrate its Golden Anniversary in 5 short years.
Fifty Years of inadaquate transit on the East Side!
I've always liked extending the 7 under Northern Blvd in Queens and out to either the Jacob Javits Center or go all the way to Jersery.
A four track subway along Broadway Bklyn to South Jamaica with feeder lines from 1]6TH Ave/houston,2nd Avenue[Manhattan].Nassaua st service would be funnelled into the 2nd ave line only. 2]Connection with the IND Fulton and BMT 14th line[with 14 st line relocation to LIRR Bay Ridge line]for though routing to the Rockaways or Canarsie. A branch line to Flatbush/Kings Plaza area via Utica Ave with tranfers to the Fulton st,Eastern Pky and Canarsie[after line is placed on LIRR] lines 3]Transfers to and from Queen Blvd,Queens X-town[new line]and JFK AIRTRAIN at Jamaica Station.4]2 branch lines,along the LIRR ROW to Queens Villiage and along Van Wyck Expressway to 120th ave,for local service the AIRTRAIN wont give riders there
You've been thinking about that a lot haven't you
Oh yeah man. would love to see em too
This is purely selfish....
Extend the "D" line to Co-Op city so I wouldn't have to deal with the BX12 bus any more when going to visit my friends.........
Peace,
Andee
After building the 2nd ave subway, and extending the 7 to NJ (Anything would be better than PATH) . . .
Extend the L West and then north up 10th Ave for better access to the subway in the western reaches of Chelsea and Hell's Kitchen. It would also provide a station within one block of the Javits center.
Terminate it at a redesigned 72nd & Broadway station. And while you're at it, add a station on the L between B&C on 14th.
A four track Utica Ave subway/el from Kings Plz/Manhattan Bch to 72St-West End Ave..........
3TM
I would have the 4 track 2nd ave line from Co-op City in the Bronx (via 3rd ave) and extending to Brooklyn under broadway and turn down Utica Avenue to Avenue U (the Atlantic Ocean) and then to JFK
I would have a four--track section between 125th and Houston on Second Ave. Above 125th, I'd run the express into the Bronx and then follow the Amtrak ROW to Co-Op city, while the local would turn and go across 125th to St. Nicholas, then connect up with the current Eighth Ave. lines between 125th and 135th (where there are six tracks already -- easy to build a ramp up there). From there, the Second Ave. local could either terminate at 145th on the lower level, go to 168th-Washington Heights or go to the Bronx along the Concourse route.
Below Houston, I would angle the line over to the Bowery, split off the local tracks to the Nassau Street line where it could either run to Broad Street or take the M trains place as the West End local in rush hours. The express tracks would continue down the Bowery, St. James Place, Pearl and Water Streets to South Ferry. From there, I would run the tracks beneath one of the tubes of the Battery tunnel, putting a stop at Governor's Island and from there into the Red Hook and Park Slope areas under the Gowanus and Prospect expressways.
Where the Propsect ends at Ocean Parkway, I'd turn the line east along Chruch Ave. and conitune it along Church past Kingsd Highway to Linden Blvd., and from there along Linden to Conduit Blvd. east to JFK.
After that of course, I would extend it east to hook up with the Archer Ave. extension from Jamaica into the southeast Queens, but we're only allowed to pick one fantasy line at a time on this thread, so we won't worry about that one for now.
Extend the L line westward from 8th Avenue to Clark/Lake. Then folks could take the L to the L. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
An extension of the 7 to Javits Center and then back across Manhattan through a new tunnel to Court Street and Hoyt-Schermerhorn. This would, of course, require conversion of the 7 to IND standards and the relocation of the Transit Museum to Chambers Street, which would be renovated, and have the necessary track realignment done in the tunnel to Fulton Street, for the occasion.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK, let me know how wacky this is.
I propose a perimeter connecting route, a P train (with a couple of additional touches on existing routes).
The P would start at the current Kennnedy Airport/Howard Beach stop on the A train. It would then go into the airport, following new JFK Shuttle tracks which we will imagine existing there.
Then, the P would turn northward on a path parallel to the Van Wyck Expy. This line would cross Liberty Ave, where it would intersect with a new terminal for the A branch which currently terminates at Lefferts Blvd.
Continuing northward, the P would intersect with the E at Jamaica/Van Wyck, run alongside the E for one stop, and connect with the E and F at Briarwood/Van Wyck.
The P could continue to parallel the Van Wyck northward up to Flushing, where it would provide a connection to the 7 at Main St. From there, it would continue north alongside the Van Wyck/Whitestone Expy, and over the Whitestone Bridge into the Bronx.
In the Bronx, the P would travel along Tremont Ave., intersecting with the 6 at Westchester Sq., the 2 & 5 at E180th St. (or E. Tremont), the D & B at Tremont/Concourse, and the 4 at 176th St.
Then, it would cross the Harlem River by some means (A. Hamilton Bridge? revamped High Bridge?) to enter Manhattan, and terminate at 168th St. in Washington Heights, thus providing connections with the A and the 1/9.
This would answer 3 dire needs: it would provide N-S service in Queens; it would provide Queens-to-Bronx service; and it would provide E-W service in the Bronx.
Despite leaving unadressed the crucial questions of subway-versus-elevated, this is brilliant, is it not?
Ferdinand Cesarano
(Of course, if I could REALLY have my druthers, I'd extend the 7, F, E, J, and A to the city line, and have them all cross the P at Francis Lewis Blvd. or Springfield Blvd. instead of at the Van Wyck.)
Every day a gazillion people transfer from the SB J to the NB F at Delancey/Essex, and vice versa. why was the "K" line service stopped, couldn't they run trains just during the rush hour? Certainly the 6ave local service could use some augmentation.
my two cents,
Dave
It was discontinued in 1976 during the fiscal crisis, apparently it wasn’t that heavily traveled, as were the EE (which was merged into the N line) and rush-hour E service to Euclid Avenue and/or Rockaway Park (which was taken over by the CC). (And if you noticed when R-32’s traveled on the line, based upon the photos on this website, the signs said “KK – Nassau St”, which sort of betrayed the fact the signs were printed in 1964 when the R-32’s were built, long before anyone knew the line would travel through Sixth Avenue.) Ironically, the line had the same color as the Eighth Avenue trunk lines would from 1979 on, thus the revival of the K name for what was once the AA being particularly ironic. (And the subject of a 1981 New York mini-article, “You’re OK, There’s No K”.)
It sure could, but right now there's no place to turn it round except at 57th-6th Avenue and there's through service to Queensbridge there...
The ideal "K" would originate at Canarsie and run express from Eastern Parkway to Marcy Avenue. The "Z" would be the local. Alas, there is no place to turn it around.
Wayne
Does anybody know exactly what kind of cars they used on the K. I think I saw a K sign pulled halfway down on the side of a slant train. It was running as the S shuttle between 2nd Av and Queensbridge. I'm not sure though. I was in a D train moving the opposite way. The sign appeared blue, and it looked like it was either the K or the Airport shuttle. I don't know exactly. Any clarification would be helpful. Thanks.
I seem to remember seeing an R-40-s end curtain being scrolled once or twice. The blue K was in the orange section (next to the B-diamond), reflecting the non-peak and interlined nature of the former AA/K service. If I recall correctly, the "bird" (JFK Express logo) was at the start of the curtain, before the A.
Please, someone correct me if I'm mistaken.
As an aside, the R-62A route curtain includes the following (all of which have somehow appeared on the road):
red... 1, 9, 2, 3, 13;
green... 4, 4-diamond, 5, 5-diamond, 6, 6-diamond, 8, 10, 12;
purple... 7, 7-diamond, 11;
grey... S.
Obviously, lots of allowances have been made. Does anyone know if any of these are expected to happen anytime soon?
A diamond 4? What on earth is that needed for. They don't use it on the trains that skip 138th.
Sometimes they do. But it is rarely you see it. I have seen a diamond 4 as the front end sign as well between cars............
3TM
The Diamond 4 is a currect sign during Rush Hours when the No.4 Skips 138 Street. But then again they could have changed that because I haven't been at Woodlawn in maybe 8 Years.
The diamond 4 sign might be in reference to the old #4 route, which ran to Flatbush Ave. during rush hours before 1985, when the 2/3/4 and 5 lines exchanged terminals in Brooklyn.
Never seen them use it. I guess everyone knows that the 4 skips 138th during rush hours.
What they could use is different signs for skip stop on the 1/9 and J/Z. There should be 3 lines. The 1 or J stops line, the 9 or Z stops line, and the all stops line. Save a little confusion. Then if u go on the skip-stop parts, you just need to know what skip-stop line is yours.
There are too many inconsistencies with the "diamond" vs the "dot".
For instance, the diamond 4 was to be used when the 4 ran to a different terminal in Bklyn. Not sure if it still does. The skipping of 138th st is still common, so much so, that it is useless to use diamond.
Then there's the IND/BMT: whenthe D runs Concourse exp, why is the diamond not used. Why doesn't the Q use orange diamond; it is basically a part time train. A Broadway train, at that. It does use a yellow diamond on occasion.
The B should use orange diamonds when going to Bedford Pk; seldom use it!
If its going to be used at all, it should be used right!
Joe C
Nobody understands what a diamond is anymore. A diamond is a RUSH HOUR ONLY service. Since there is no such thing really, the diamond should be eliminated.
It can distinguish thru-expresses. The 1 advantage to the LED's on the newer cars is they can display circles and diamonds so the operator doesn't mess up the sign. I've seen many signs on trains that are absurd and the train crew needs to do this part of their job as well as the other parts.
I agree. The diamond vs dot needs to be re-thought and the public & transit people alike need a re-education. If the diamond is for part-time/ rush hour services it needs to be looked at again. I would hope the new LED displays can show color and diamond/ dot indicators.
The signs on the R44/46's are a waste. They passed their initial test, now it is time to place modern signs in them, signs that display line color and diamonds & dots. Then use these on all future orders.
They used to use it in the late 80's quite often.
Wayne
I remember a while back I saw an R62 car on the 42nd Street Shuttle carrying an upside-down "11" on the outside, while displaying the regular "S" on the inside. The "S" was probably upside-down, too, because during the changing sign process, since they change the signs from the inside, the person changing the sign saw "S" and stopped there, not noticing that there was an upside-down "11" on the outside. It stayed like that for about at least a couple of months, I think... When I saw the same car again, I saw that they corrected the problem. It would have been interesting to take a picture of that car with the upside-down "11," along with a picture of a B-division car showing "V" or "W." I've seen a couple of cars with an upside-down "W." I think they should use those "W"'s to disambiguate Astoria trains that terminate at Canal Street from N trains going to C.I. Since the "11" was purple, I think that a line carrying that number would probably have been a branch of the Flushing #7 line. At least, that's what I think.
I hear the 11 will be the 7 Express someday.
02/09/2000
7 & 11 ?? 7-11?
The Slurpee Line ?
Bill Newkirk
This is the southbound Slurpee express to Times Square. Next stop is Queensboro Plaza for the N. Stand in, stand clear!
The MTA should have companies sponsor stations and lines, like Adopt-a-Highway.
119 Street - Arthur Burkhard Avenue
Litter removal by KRAMER
Hey - why not?
What color was the W?
If it was brown (fat chance), maybe the upside-down W could be used on the rush hour M to Brooklyn. That way riders could distinguish between the M and the Fat-M.
The color of the "W" is yellow. It's actually W-diamond.
It's a diamond? Then it's perfect for the rush hour M! Let's start calling it the Diamond-Fat-M.
Now, some of you might be saying as you clicked on this link in the message board, "The M doesn't run up Manhattan's Broadway." For the most part, you're right, because usually, the M runs over Brooklyn's Broadway. However, I got to ride on an M train that went from Bay Parkway to Times Square (4th Av/West End Local, Broadway Express). It happened on or around January 29, 1998. More info soon...
I just put the page up on my web site. Click here to see it.
There must have been a G. O. or some unscheduled diversion from the Nassau St. line. It'll make a good trivia question: did the M ever run along Manhattan's Broadway?
I wonder why that train went only as far as Times Square when it could have continued on to 57th St.
It was probably the latter because I was on that train during the rush hour. When else during the day did M trains run to Brooklyn in 1998?
Only during rush hours, IIRC. They ran to 9th Ave. during middays for a number of years before being cut back to Chambers St.
On the day that I rode an M train to Times Square, midday M trains ran to Chambers St.
The change occured in 1995 when the Manhattan Bridge was closed on both sides off peak. The M had to be cut back to give clearance to Q trains in the tunnel. When service was restored, the M wasn't.
The various "oddball" letters I've seen are as follows:
Navy Blue: A, C, E, H, K
Orange: B, D, Q, F, S, V
Yellow: B, D, Q, N, N-diamond, R, R-diamond, S, W-diamond
Brown: J, Z, M, R-diamond
Lt. Green: G
Grey: L, S
White: P, T, U, X, Y
On what cars did you see these signs? I saw a label right behind a sign (in the door well for the end door of an R-42 car) that basically indicates that the roll curtain on the end basically resembles the GIF image below. (I'm not sure if the scroll direction is correct for the R-42 cars, though. I based this GIF on the scroll direction of an R-46 car.) I think the color for the gray S is a bit too dark, but I made this GIF.
It's probably not an R-42 you saw it on.
How did I see this label, you ask? The access door was unlocked when I boarded the train, and it flung open when the train started moving.
I have seen R68As with orange B diamond, and yellow Q diamond signs.
the reason that they have B dimond signs on R68 is because back when the train used to go to 168 Street it was rush hours only. And the Q dimond on R68 were because all Q trains ran during rush hours back in the 1980s.
its strange that up to now they have not remove the old roll signs from the R42 trains that are eliminated like JFK, H, K, B,D,Q-YELLOW and R brown dimond rush hour service.
The Eight Ave. K (1985-1988) ran almost exclusively R42 cars during it's run. However, there was a period (late 87) when a large percentage of the K line was made up of R10's.
During the Manhattan Bridge closure from 86-88, the K and rush hour B train shared the same fleet.
Questions about the K and what kind of equipment was assigned to it - remind me of the KK - which frequently had R1/9 cars assigned to it.
As I recall - the R1/9s did not always have proper signage for that train and sometimes ran with the white part of the sign curtain showing.
Yeah - I do know the KK ran a very different route from the K. But the 0rignal post about the K reminded me of the first use of the letter K.
I miss the old days.
The old KK was treated as an Eastern Division BMT route. The R-7s and R-9s which were transferred there received new end and side route curtains as well as new side destination curtains, but not bulkhead destination curtains. Supposedly, this was in keeping with the trend set by the newest cars, which didn't have front destination signs. Once in a while, a train of R-7/9s on the Eastern Division would have one or both of its bulkhead destination curtains indicating a terminus, if it happened to be included on the curtain. However, this was not standard practice and most often, the front destination curtain would be cranked all the way to one end or the other so that the blank white portion would be showing. Every LL train of these cars which I ever rode on was set this way. As I recall, the side signs were always set correctly. It seemed a little strange at first to see "Rockaway Pk'w'y" instead of "Canarsie", as on the BMT standards.
Incidentally, those R-7/9s also had "MM" signs on their curtains. I have an Eastern Division R-7/9 side route curtain, and it includes MM.
How about the "EE"? Remember how they put bulkhead signs in the side
destination boxes?
Joe C
They did that with the R16. They also did with some R38's and R32's, but they were removed in the late 70's. The R16's kept those colored route signs till the bitter end.
Yep, they sure did. The R-16s needed new signs anyway, since they still had the old BMT number markings. The R-32s and R-38s were "updated", in keeping with the trend ushered in by the R-40s. Virtually all cars in those three classes received the multicolored curtains in the front destination slot; some retained the original route curtains. Even some of the R-16s kept their old number curtains up front. Supposedly, a few R-27/30s were also fitted with multicolored front route curtains, but I never saw any of them like that.
I personally never liked that particular approach. The idea of having a front destination sign, in addition to a route sign, was an excelent one, and should have been kept. I like to know where a train is headed as soon as it pulls in, which may be one reason I'm so fond of the Redbirds. My gut feeling at the time was that the front destination signs would return to the R-32s at least, and they did. Don't get me started on those stupid pixel signs they have now..
With the imminent demise of the redbirds, destination signs on the fronts of trains, something that's been commonplace on subway cars since the BMT purchased the D types in the 1920's, will be only a thing of memory. I kinda liked the R110B's front end destination signs, right below the route sign. Too bad it won't be on the new cars.
Joe: Do you remember the signs on the R 1-9's. They had the word "VIA" above the word "BWAY?" Both words were inlarge print so it was impossible to fit the name into the signage window.
Larry,RedbirdR33
My R-1/9 IND side route curtain has the three post-Chrystie St. route markings (B, EE, and TT) spliced to the front end. I thought it was funny that a second B sign was printed, since the R-1/9s already had B signs.
Steve: I seem to recall in those wild and wacky days following the opening of the Chrystie Street Line seeing a few R 1-9's on the EE carry EE 8th Avenue Local signs. That particular EE hadn't run since 1937. Now that was a very,very late train.
Larry,RedbirdR33
02/11/2000
Re: (EE) side signs on R-9's
Remember the front route signs?
Under the "EE", 8th Ave was painted over with black paint, remember, this was a Broadway line!
Bill Newkirk
Would you believe I never, ever saw an EE train? The closest thing to it was the time on a Saturday afternoon in late 1967 or early 1968, when after bailing out of a train of BMT standards on the Canarsie line at Union Square and transferring to the Broadway line, I looked down the express track and saw a train marked "EE" being stored. Looked the other way, same thing. I was incredulous, to say the least. What? No express run?!? An RR train pulled in and we took it to Times Square, but I was fuming. Call it another learning experience. I had just been introduced to the fine art of underground train storage during the winter months.
I once saw an EE. Well, not an EE, but an R46 E train, still with it's original side signs, set to EE in one car, in late 1985. Those were the signs which had the strip maps on the inside of the sign. Another thing I miss about the old days ...
The ultimate "EE" experience could be had if you got a snarling old R-6 or R-7. Ride it northbound out of Cortlandt Street and watch the fireworks. They did this too in the Jughandle leaving Queens Pza and connecting with the 60th Street Tube.
When "EE" debuted in 1967, it was almost 100% R-6 and R-7, with a handful of higher-numbered R-4s thrown in. Then in 1969, the R40Ms showed up, wearing their brake test numbers. By 1970, the R16s made up the bulk of the fleet. Very rarely you would see an R38 there, and rarer still a Slant R40 signed up as "S". The R-6s and R-7s went back to the "E" and "F".
Wayne
Regards,
Jimmy
I know it wold be hard, but wouldn’t it be possible to turn the K at 57 while the Q runs through? There is a home signal on T1 north of 57 that would protect trains running NB into the station. If a train were to reverse out of B6, there’s enough space for a NB train to wait without fouling the 53rd street line for the F. Definitely the place to start out new tower operators! ;-)
dave
Believe me, I'd love to see this "K" service - an express ride to midtown from Eastern Brooklyn would be great, especially since there's only one 6th Avenue local. But I don't think they're going to create a bottleneck turning "K"s in front of running "Q"s in the rush hour.
The only alternative would be to wait until the Manhattan Bridge south side is done and the "Q" would go up Broadway then - but that gives rise to another set of problems. Sure the "K" could turn at 57th Street with no "Q"s to bother it but what do you do during mid-day? The "B" is busy going up to 145th Street - they won't truncate it to 57th Street. So what do you do? Keep the "K" running all day would be an idea - the "J" would revert to local during the mid-day hours.
Just pipe dreams.
I still remember the original "KK" with its fleet of wheezing, hissing R-7s, R-7As and R-9s and the (up until sometime late in 1968) lone BMT Standard they ran. And the handful of R42s that would sometimes show up.
Wayne
Yeah I forgot aboot the Manny-B thing - that would work better. I thought that the headways for the Q, at best, were about 10 minutes; If I'm right it seems like it would provide plenty of time. Also the only bottleneck at 57 would be if NB and SB Q's were simulntaneously approaching, since otherwise you could reverse the K on either station track. (They would have to turn them pretty fast I guess.) I assume the 57th st crossovers are controlled from the tower at 50th street.
yes. pipe dreams.
I remember seeing a KK train of R-7/9s once along 6th Ave. Didn't ride it, though. Nor do I remember the exact date, although it could have been the very day that route made its debut. Yes, I was in the city on July 1, 1968 - brutally hot, IIRC. There was a first that day: my first ride on a 7 train from 74th St. to Times Square. Earlier that morning, I was treated to a ride on an R-6/7 E train to Queens whose first car was completely dark.
About 8:20 am, a water main burst in Wells Street between Jackson and Adams. I came east from Union Station about 8:30 or so, and the streets for a block in all directions from Wells and Quincy were flooded over a foot deep. Just the streets, mind you; the sidewalks were above the water line. There were cars parked under the L in Wells Street with water over the bumpers and into the radiators! Historic Quincy/Wells L station is right in the middle of the flooded area and was closed almost immediately.
The funny thing was that, while cars and taxis were being diverted, buses and pedestrians weren't, and the normal rush-hour crowd was headed east and west along Jackson when I went through by bus. Also, there were very few gawkers: the crowds were so nonchalant and "business as usual" that you would have thought water inundating downtown streets curb to curb is a normal condition. (^:
Unfortunately, the worst isn't over. The flooded streets are closed completely. And (more to the point on a transit message board) all Loop trains are being diverted from the Wells leg of the L until the engineers can inspect the I-beams holding up the L in the flooded zone. That means the stations on the Wells and Van Buren legs of the Loop (Washington/Wells, Quincy/Wells, LaSalle/Van Buren, and Library) will be closed and all Loop trains will have to use the Lake and Wabash legs only. This isn't as bad congestion-wise as it first sounds, as all Loop lines use those legs anyway: the Orange, Brown, and Purple lines make a full circuit of the Loop, while Green trains use only the Lake and Wabash legs to connect the Lake Street L with the old South Side L.
The real question is how the lines that make a full circuit of the Loop will turn around without unduly obstructing the tracks coming north and south out of the Loop. I know they could just make Y turns (Browns and Purples just south of the Loop and Oranges just north of it) but that plays havoc with other trains leaving the Loop over the same trackage. Unfortunately, it's the only alternative. Any other ideas? (^:
The funny thing was that, while cars and taxis were being diverted, buses and pedestrians weren't, and the normal rush-hour crowd was headed east and west along Jackson when I went through by bus. Also, there were very few gawkers: the crowds were so nonchalant and "business as usual" that you would have thought water inundating downtown streets curb to curb is a normal condition. (^:
Well, after our little incident in 1992, this is just small potatoes. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL (Six floors out of harm's way near the Chicago Ave. Brown Line stop)
Broken water main causes Loop flooding
-- David
Chicago, IL
Sure--do it like they did the Santa Claus train and
connect the Brown and Orange lines. Call it through
service--Kimball to Midway. Both line already use the
same 3200 MK cars.
Run the Purple line through to 35th ST on the Green line and turn them there (14thST would hamper the Kimball-Midway).
David Harrison
OK, just got through with the 4 pm news and here's how the CTA s rerouting service.
The Loop "L" has no service along Van Buren or Wells--thats the south and west legs.
Brown line trains use the north an east legs to 14th ST middle track where they are turned.
Orange line trains use the same legs but turn south onto Wells at Tower18 and go to the new station at Washingtn & Wells were they are turned back.
Purple discontinued between Howard and Loop--use the Red line instead.
They're the experts!!
David Harrison
I just got in from my commute from Adams/Wacker. Little did I know when I came down the Adams Street exit from the Ravenswood platform of Quincy/Wells, an hour later the area would be a huge pool.
On my walk towards State Street and the Red Line, I got as close as I could to the sinkhole. This is located at southeast corner of Quincy/Wells. There is plenty of police and CTA types keeping people away from the area. There are plenty of people there to give directions and a free 'L' shuttle is running.
I left my friend to brave the Howard Red Line, and I walked 1/2 block east to Adams/Wabash. A Ravenswood train entered the station as soon as I got on the platform, and worrying that it may be a long wait until the next train I didn't stick around to see where the train came from. I would expect David Harrison is correct; however, I don't know why they (CTA) are not turning the Ravenswood west onto VanBuren as far as Library. There is a trailing point cross-over located just east of the station. This could be used to get turned trains onto the right track, and regain their regular northbound route through Tower 12.
I did see, from my vantage point in the rear-facing back seat, a Midway train taking the facing point crossover just north of Washington/Wells. The headlights and markers lite up almost as soon as the train got into the station, so I would assume they are using the dropback system to enable operators to get out of the station ASAP. The 'new' switch turning from eastbound to southbound (used to route Ravenswood trains around the loop again when the Chicago River bridge is open) at Tower 18 really comes in handy today.
The news on the tube says it could be days before CTA determines the damage, if any, to the 102-year-old structure. Frank Kruesi was on the tube saying that initially things look good (whatever that means).
I was hoping for the Midway-Ravenswood through route, but the major drawback is the 'NO-8 car' station platforms on the north side. Off course, the union would have to agree to any extreme change in routings, I'm sure.
Stay tuned. Even without Evanston trains this evening, the Lake and Wabash (north and east) sides of the Loop were very busy.
-Jim K.
Chicago
Will the Wells Street leg of the Loop be open tommorow morning? If not, will there be no Evanston Express service in the morning?
I need to know, as I take the Express every morning.
-Jacob
[Will the Wells Street leg of the Loop be open tommorow morning? If not, will there be no Evanston Express service in the morning?
I need to know, as I take the Express every morning.
-Jacob]
It looks like there will be no normal service tomorrow. CTA says it will keep updating its website throughout the disruption.
Loop up the CTA at www.yourcta.com
The news is says maybe a couple of days before the structure can be declared safe for travel.
I'd check before I leave tomorrow morning for your trip downtown. You may have an adventure ahead of you tomorrow.
-Jim K.
Chicago
I need to know, as I take the Express every morning.
According to the 10:00 news tonight, it looks like you'll be riding with the great unwashed masses on the Red Line tomorrow morning. Evanston Express service to the Loop is a distant memory until further notice.
Better leave the house early.
-- David
Chicago, IL
With the water almost up to my 6th floor office window at 6:00 PM, I decided to row down to the site and check it out for myself after work this evening.
I grabbed the Brown Line at Chicago Avenue and got off at Clark/Lake. The sight of a guy on the plaform getting paid $18 an hour to bark "Brown Line! Brown Line! Brown Line! Brown Line!" into a megaphone while wearing an orange vest certainly made me pause for a minute to reevaluate my own career goals before heading down to the scene.
Once there, I saw more Chicago police cars under an L since the filming of The Blues Brothers.
Most of the water appeared to have been cleared away, although the street was still more than a bit damp. I couldn't get very close to the sinkhole itself, but it appeared to be directly next to the stairs leading up to the east platform of the Quincy/Wells L stop.
Couldn't see any damage to the L structure itself, but I could swear the Sears Tower is now leaning a bit to the east.
I was hoping to ride a Brown Line train all the way down to Roosevelt (not very often that is possible), but it appeared as if the southbound Brown Line trains were being taken out of service at Wabash/Adams before running empty down to 14th and reversed. While waiting for my northbound Brown Line, I saw a 6-car train of 2400's with "Express" in the destination signs go southbound through Wabash/Adams without stopping. The train appeared to be empty. No idea what the story is behind that.
Back at Clark/Lake, the orange vest guy was still barking "Brown Line! Brown Line! Brown Line! Brown Line!" Tough job, but somebody's gotta do it. Rest of the ride home was uneventful.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Actually, my ride home was rather routine after the long walk to Adams/Wabash, but it is only 1/2 block further than I usually walk. In the evening, I usually accompany a co-worker to the Red Line-Howard train, as he HATES to change from the Evanston to the Red Line-Howard at Belmont, something about not being able to get a seat.
Anyway, I think the CTA didn't do a bad job of it this evening. I haven't heard any horror stories, but I understand the Starbucks at Adams/Wells was jammed with Yuppies scoring a Latte Grande before they braved the perilous journey home. Some of them reported refused to enter the subway at Jackson/State for fear of ending up at a destination they didn't want to be at! Anyway, enough of the fun.
I too would like to ride the Rave down to RRD; however, it is probably difficult enough getting people to leave the train at Adams/Wabash. I counted 7 southbound Ravenswood trains on my ride from Adams/Wabash to Chicago/Franklin. Not a bad headway for this situation. I'm sure there was a bottleneck between Tower 12 and 14th St. center track.
If it is still going on tomorrow evening, I'm going to take a ride down to RRD to check things out.
-Jim K.
Chicago
If the CTA decided to operate through service from Kimball to Midway, then the trains should carry two-color signs, orange and brown, which would be a reminder of the final Chicago Rapid Transit Company color scheme. There is a precedent for such through service; Ravenswood service was once paired with Englewood for a time.
Whoa, now. This is only a suggestion how to handle the temporary reroute caused by the break in a 36 inch water main beneath Quincy & Wells.
Engineers are concerned that the water underground has weakened the support underpinnings of the "L" structure.
See my next post to see how the really rerouted service.
David Harrison
What i don't understand about the whole situation is why no Purple Line Express to Belmont??? Trains could turn around south of Fullerton, Correct?
A good majority of the riders transfer there to the red line anyway!
BJ
I don't see what's stoping the CTA from running Purple Line trains all the way to Washington/Wells, where they could reverse on the outer loop track and head back out without interfering with the Brown or Orange Line trains. But I guess that would make too much sense.
-- David
Chicago, IL
P.S. The only reason this may not work is if there is no crossover nearby where Purple Line trains could switch over to the outbound track after they reverse at Washington/Wells. In that case, they're SOL.
-- David
Chicago, IL
During the GOH of the mid 80's through early 90's, I recall that some of the overhauled Redbird subway cars were painted a dark green.
These subway cars ran for a little while on the Dyre Ave line. They then disappeared. I assume the cars were repainted the Redbird color.
I have a question. Why weren't more cars painted in green? And why did the TA decide on red? Is it to restore the cars to the colors they were when they were new?
If that is not the reason, I wonder why didn't they choose different colors?
Thanks.
I think they might have painted them red so if they rust it wouldn't show as much. Just a guess.
When David Gunn came to the Transit Authority in 1984, he and his people quickly began a major overhaul of subway cars. This was the end of the era of the white cars, and Gunn's folks thought that new paint (in addition to the elimination of grafitti) would give the subway a new image. The paint color actually was an indication of what kind of overhaul the cars were given. The first were the IRT R29, R33, and R36 cars, which were given major rebuilds because it was expected that they would remain in service for 20 to 25 years. Second were the R10s, which received only intermediate life-extending overhauls to "make do" until all the R44s were back in service and the R68s started arriving. Dark green was chosen to set them off from the heavy overhaul cars. I don't know if any other B Division (BMT/IND) cars were painted green (in fact I can't think of any other non-stainless steel B Division cars except the R16s, now gone, and the R27/30s, which I'm sure are retired by now), or red, for that matter. But the R32, R38, R40 and R42 cars all got heavy overhauls, as well as retrofit A/C.
The principal reason for doing so many overhauls was twofold: first, the TA fleet is so huge that new cars couldn't be bought quickly enough to restore reliability, and second, the TA didn't want to become locked into a cycle whereby they would be buying 4,000 subway cars in a period of only a few years. The objective, at least back in the 1980s, was to reach a state where sustained purchases of 200 to 400 cars a year could be made.
(The objective was to buy 200 cars per year)
Well, they blew that one, didn't they? Thanks Mario.
Let's get back to colors. I've asked this question before, but there were no metalurgists on the board at the time, so I'll ask again. We are clearly going with unpainted stainless steel from now on. No need to keep painting something that didn't have to be painted to begin with.
The question is, are there alloys that can be put into the steel to modify its color without changing its properties? Could you slip, say, one percent copper in and give the trains a reddish glow? Or will we be stuck with silver snails from now on?
You are on the right "track". Copper bearing steels can be put into service "bare" without the need for paint. USS CORTEN is such a structural steel that has seen extensive architectural applications.
The addition of the copper isn't for cosmetic reasons however. When ordinary low alloy steel rusts, the corrosion product (rust) is composed of iron oxide. This rust is bulky, porous and friable. This means that the rust will continually spall off (flake off) from the base metal exposing new metal thus repeating the corrosion cycle. The porous nature of the corrosion product also acts as a "wick" which draws and stores moisture, so the corrosion process is advanced. This is why carbon and alloy steel car and subway train bodies can have such extensive body "rot", and why it is so necessary to remove even the smallest trace of rust in a body repair - otherwise the existing rust will just keep the corrosion process going. CORTEN and other copper bearing steels produce a corrosion product (oxide) that is tenacious. This means that once the initial rust layer forms, the base material is protected and NO FURTHER CORROSION OCCURS - as long as the oxide layer is intact. The rust layer does not have a tendency to flake off. The only drawback is that the oxide layer (rust) is not very attractive for a public conveyance. It works fine on large scale projects (the US Steel Building in Pittsburgh, PA is faced entirely with CORTEN leading to it's nickname of "The Rusty Nail". Many bridges and light stancions use CORTEN - they are the ugly "brown" ones).
Stainless steel can be colored by a process that produces oxide layers that have interference optical properties (apparent color - the oxide is actually colorless) PRISMACOLOR is a process that can color stainless steel without the need for paint. PRISMATIC stainless steels are also available with an embossed pattern that will deter "scratchiti". I don't know of a similar process for carbon or alloy steel.
BTW, besides being a subway buff and modeler, I am a metallurgist.
Only the GE R10 cars were painted green (in 1985). No R16 was ever re-painted any color. They were retired in their grafittied old white/blue color scheme. The R27-30's that got GOH'ed were painted the same way the redbirds today were.
Correction: I meant Westinghouse R10 units were GOH'd and painted green.
I thought there was a legend that said the color was chosen by accident - the original paint color ran out and there was lots of redbird red left over, it was applied, it looked good, and it stuck ever since.
--Mark
02/09/2000
RE: Green R-29's(?)
Those 10 cars were kept in a solid trainset, yet weren't overhauled. In fact there was a spare R-17 and R-21 painted green also for when one married pair was out of service. I guess the green paint may have been for a graffitti free experiment.
Bill Newkirk
R17's and R21's were single units. I personally never saw any green R17 or any grafitti-free R21's period. There was a small number of redbird R17's which I saw in service on the TS shuttle.
02/09/2000
Chris R16,
There was only one R-17 and one R-21 painted green. If one married pair was withdrawn for repairs, the 17 and 21 would take their place. But then again, this was only one 10 car consist like this that could not be broken up (run with the Redbirds).
Bill Newkirk
I see. I only spotted the green IRT train twice (at Atlantic Ave and Penn Station running on the 2 route).
Ah, but I remember seeing clean cars on the IRT in the late 60s, before the graffiti epidemic hit. I should point out that I very, very rarely ever ever rode on the IRT back then - once or twice in 1967 and 1968, then after that occasionally to see the Mets at Shea.
Speaking of green R-17s, there is a 1964 photo of Concourse Yard in New York Subway Cars of a mixed IRT train among a sea of R-1/9s. This IRT train has mostly R-21s and R-22s with a few R-12s, and lo and behold, there is a green R-17 #6647. It matches the olive drab shade the R-21s and R-22s wore to a T. I have to wonder if that particular R-17 was actually repainted, or if it was just plain so dirty and filthy that its original maroon livery was obliterated.
I was referring to green R21/22 cars in the 1980's. If any existed, they escaped my very careful observation. All I remember is grafitti covered R21/22's, which I assume were blue and white underneath the tagging and grunge. Those cars were in bad shape at the end, like the R16 was. It's no suprise that there was no "farewell to the R21 or 22" fan trip.
The NY Subway Car book (page 77) shows R21 7050 in that green applied in the 1980's -- the caption says it was the ONLY R21 to be painted green then. I assume there also were some R22's???
I know there were some R10's painted this way, as there is a photo of them (May 200 page) in Bill Newkirk's subway calendar. Not sure how many, or if ALL of them were done this way. I guess at least one trainset, judging from the photo!
Actually all of the Westinghouse R10 units were painted green in 1985. They provided the bulk of C service from 85-89. Their had to be at least 150 of them.
If you look REALLY close in that picture (page 130 for those looking for it) you can see around the door edges some traces of maroon. The car is simply that filthy that it blends in with everything else. This was the way most subway cars looked until the mid-1960's. That's about the time that the car washers were FINALLY installed.
There was always the joke about how NYC subways went for 64 years without the benefit of car washers.....so I'd assume they were put in service in 1968. However, there were car washers installed at the IRT Corona Yard in 1963 in preparation for the upcoming World's Fair in 1964-1965. (In those days, the Flushing line was a showcase -- recent comments by sports figures would never have been made!!)
Today I received a gift from one of the suits at this depot, it's a book that describes what you can do with used MCs. Now I haven't made it a secret of my little hobby, but obviously this boss knows that I'm enjoying it. He also knows that I buy kids meals for lunch, as do some colleagues in the MTA. My wife thinks I never grew up, guess word is getting around.
For any other MC nuts out there: MetroCard Mania with Professor Putter, Fun with Used MetroCards.
- Make a Metro Boomerang, a Merto Frog (that hops), Metro Furnature.
- How many words can you make out of metrocard ?
- How to make a Metro Highrise Tower
Well that's my little bit of humor for today, how you enjoyed it !
Mr t__:^)
Why do trains (especially the N) move so slowly once it enters Pacific St. on the southbound express tracks?
Isn't the rear end of the train still negotiating that damn tight turn north of the platforms?
Yup, really tight turn. Sometimes I wonder how 75's take that curve.
Lots of catwalk bit the dust back in the 70s when the 75-footers made their debut. Some it was north of De Kalb.
Wayne
Wheel detectors that enforce the speed limit of 10 mph entering the station. If the train exceeds 10mph, the wheel detector system will apply the train's emergency brakes.
Wasn't that susposed to be put on the city's web site today (2-7)? Anyone know where it is because it isn't online.
I have found that therwe are four varieties-- two deasigns each having two different messages.
The designs I have seen are 1- the Black and white street sign and
2-the full color version showing what appears to be Times Square Area.
The messages are "Order now and get 11 subway rides " and
"order now and get a 20 min A T & T prepaid Card."
The cards give a phone number (which I wont print here) and four extensions:
Black and white "20 minutes" 81421,. "11 subway rides" 81422
Full color "20 minutes" 81424, "11 rides" 81423 (I have not seen this one).
I do not know if there is another design out.
There are only four typs of cards. I have all four. I got my last one yeasterday out of one of the reader boxes.
they have at&t metrocards? who will use it? it's such a gimmic unless it is made for tourists not from the region or not from the country
The card is a plug( advertisement) for A T & T local phone service in NYC
02/08/2000
Ooohhhhh!.........These Metrocards are making me craaaazee !!
Bill Newkirked
Most of us will not see the following as "news", but rather further proof of government being "For Sale".
Chicago Tribune reporter, Jon Hilkevitch's, observation that "the Clinton administration play[s] politics with funding for mass transit, highways and aviation while delaying attention to dire needs" was "reinforced again last week when the U.S. Department of Transportation finally agreed to help provide the bulk of the $420 million needed to rehabilitate the dangerously dilapidated Douglas branch of the CTA's Blue Line."
The article, "Poll Data May Have Helped Free Transit Cash" continues at:
http://chicagotribune.com/news/metro/chicago/article/0,2669,SAV-0002070091,FF.html
That article mentions $810 million for Illinois transit projects. Is US-DOT just allowing them to spend their share of the national transportation block grants? Or is this over and above money.
If anyone deserves more money, it is NYC. Our ridership gains are truly startling. Of course, with Hillary running New York is in line for a little pork too. All of it related to health care, social services, and low income housing, and virtually none to transportation.
Hillary's advisors, along with city Democratic politicans and polling people will have to tell her to focus on promoting more mss transit funding for the city because, let's face it, she has about as much first-hand experience with mass transit in New York as the Dali Lama does.
If the focus groups show her that a call for major spending increases for bus and rail would gain her X number of points in the polls downstate without losing X number of points upstate, she'll do it. Otherwise, it will be at best a one or two-day issue over the next nine months of the campaign.
Remember Ms. Clinton is from Suburban Chicago and grew up with commuter rail and transit. She is not a native of Arkansas, thats where Bill is from. She may well understand transit. She is an urban person.
[Remember Ms. Clinton is from Suburban Chicago and grew up with commuter rail and transit. She is not a native of Arkansas, thats where Bill is from. She may well understand transit. She is an urban person.]
Now Joe, do you really think Hillary knows what the subway is? Do you honestly think she ever rode the train to downtown? Would she today?
Come now, you're an intelligent guy, don't try this one us.
BTW, I hope she wins in NY, I don't want her to get the idea of coming here and buying a condo in Lincoln Park so she can run for Fitzgerald's seat.
-Jim K.
Chicago
What Hillary knows is that if you are on welfare without workfare, or if you work for a non-profit or government make-work problem within Brooklyn, you don't need to take the subway. That's why Brooklyn Pols don't care about the subway. What's in it for them?
[What Hillary knows is that if you are on welfare without workfare, or if you work for a non-profit or government make-work problem within Brooklyn, you don't need to take the subway. That's why Brooklyn Pols don't care about the subway. What's in it for them?]
Every time I think that NYC (and especially Brooklyn) politicians can't get any stupider ...
But seriously, what is really disturbing is that fact that many people are still eager to buy houses and commercial properties in Brooklyn, not knowing that the end of subway service over the Manhattan Bridge could wreack havoc with property values. Brooklyn may not be enjoying a Sunbelt-style real estate boom, but as far as I know prices haven't collapsed either. Yet it's not hard to realize that some neighborhoods will suffer greatly from the end of subway service. If only there were some way to caution would-be purchasers of the danger looming ahead.
if they do stop subway service over the Manhattan bridge, all hell will break loose.
SWWCWIIFM = so what, who cares, whats in it for me
The Clinton Administration has been a disapointment for transit, but as well as the Arkansas Transit Associtaion did in presenting the facts, Bill and DOT Sec. Penna (Mr. Denver Airport) did not get transit.
I think that Ms. Clinton may very well understand the role that transit can play in the urban envronment.
Mr. Penna was not a firm beliver and argued for transit cuts to ballance the budget within cabinet discussions.
He was of course wrong.
Sec. Slater has been a big improvement, and transit is moving forward.
If she can beat Fitzgerald, even if he was Irish, more power to her.
Somehow as a Goldwater Girl in a Republican familiy in suburban Chicago in 1964, I just don't see her as being a big rail rider. However, she did attend the announcment last year that the No. 7 line would be declared a historical structure because of the number of immigrant communities is serves, so I suppose when the Braves play the Mets at Shea at the end of June she can make a pronuoncment against John Rocker as a representative of all the Flushing Line riders...
...and if she says something about solving the problem of those un-airconditioned R-33WFs, then I'll take back everything I said in that other post.
OK so she may not be city girl she may understand the LIRR.
02/09/2000
Hillary's concern over NYC's mass transit is all window dressing. It's votes were talking about here! She's really bent on occupying the White House, as Chief Executive and this Senate thing is just a stepping stone. She eventually will bury America years after Slick Willy killed it!!
Bill Newkirk
Well Bill, you and your fellow New Yorkers can do something to stop her in her tracks. Send her back to her upstate rat hole, or back to Arkansas or back to Illinois, by rejecting her out of hand in November. It's that simple. Then I can come to New York anytime I want to.
Pulleeeeease, ANYWHERE but Illinois!! We've suffered through enough crooked politicians already!
-- David
Chicago, IL
Hillary...New York`s in line for a little pork....
Don`t bet on it!In the unlikely event that she`s elected NY will have 2 Democratic senators.With the house and Senate likely to remain in republican hands,it`s doubtful that NY would head of have any influence in the commitee structure that actually allocates federal funds.
Cherish these R-142`s,they may be the last new stock for some time.
New York Pols idea of bringing home the pork is to increase the taxes New Yorkers pay by a dollar, and then hand out 80 cents. New York pols backed the OTHER Clinton first and hard. People around here were expecting LOTS of good things. We'll, taxes went up and New York's share of federal spending for everything but Medicaid went way down.
Any Pork will go to the suburbs and upstate New York. No one is willing to even fund the basics for New York City.
If you elect Giuliani, you'll have a native New York City native in the Senate and with a Republican President, you get some pork. With Hillary al you'll get is the rinds.
George W is not going to wash
McClain will not send cash to NYC but to the southwest and the south. Your best bet is Al and Hillary, sorry to say.
Our best bet may be McCain. Everyone screws New York. We hope of getting a fair amount back, but we can at least reduce the amount we send out.
Let's say all federal transportation funding were eliminated. Would New York City's mass transit spending go up or down? My guess is, up. We'd do things instead of waiting around for federal money that never comes, while financing projects elsewhere. At least it would be in our hands.
Or in Upstate in Albany
He gave DC money for the Largo Extention and the NY Ave Sta
That article provides no evidence, beyond the writer's cynical assumption, that politics were involved in the decision-making. In fact, he acknowledges that the work needs to be done to correct dangerously dilapidated conditions.
Funding necessary projects is what the government is supposed to do. The fact that they can do it now is more a product of the huge federal budget surplus (thank you, 1993 budget deal) than the election cycle.
Of course the announcement was staged to boost Gore. That's what incumbents do. But to allege that the grant is coming now simply because of politics is silly. Besides, "playing politics" is usually used to refer to officials withholding money until it receives some sort of concession. Daley has been a buddy of this administration forever. If the money had been available before, it would have flowed.
Amen
That article provides no evidence, beyond the writer's cynical assumption, that politics were involved in the decision-making. In fact, he acknowledges that the work needs to be done to correct dangerously dilapidated conditions.
This is Chicago we're talking about, and the reporter writes for the Chicago Tribune. As such, he is simply aware of the obvious: Everything here is political, and nobody takes a dump in this town without considering the political implications.
Besides, "playing politics" is usually used to refer to officials withholding money until it receives some sort of concession.
The city has been begging for that money for years. Watch for the "concession" closer to Election Day, when The Organization kicks into gear and hundreds of city workers are sent out to the precincts to bring in the vote for Gore.
Don't get me wrong; I'm all in favor of the Blue Line and Brown Line projects, and I applaud the announcement of their long-awaited funding. But that doesn't mean I'm not aware of how Little Big Man "I said 'clouded,' not 'clouted!'" Daley does business.
-- David
Chicago, IL
per official bulletin. Will go on sale 2/14/2000-runs for 3 months with additional deliveries twice a month. The stations are NOT grouped but listed SEPARATELY. If a line is not listed then the card is not for that line.
34/Penn- 1,2,3,9
110-1,9
79-1,9
86-1,9
Christopher-1,9
Cortlandt-1,9
Rector-1,9
South Ferry-1,9
Nevins-2,3,4,5
Wall Street-4,5
23-6
28-6
51-6
77-6
96-6
Astor-6
Spring-6
High-A,C,E
Canal-A,C,E
Jay-A,C,F
Hoyt Schermerhorn-A,C,G
Broadway-Nassau/Fulton-A,C,J,M,2,3,4,5
103-B,C
110-B,C
72-B,C
81-B,C
47-50/Rockefeller Center-B,D,F,Q
Broadway/Lafayette-B,D,F,Q
Canal-J,N,R,6
1 av-L
3 av-L
6 Av- L
5 av- N,R
City Hall- N,R
Prince- N,R
Whitehall- N,R
IND NOTE: I have listed the stations for permanent service rather than the one month service.
Does anyone know of good Montreal Metro sites other than marc dafour's?
Hello,
I am a student doing a research paper on the history of the subway
system and I have a question that I have been having a hard time finding an answer to, hopefully someone can help. In my research about the pre subway era I read about Beach's pneumatic subway. In my reading I found that in 1871 William Tweed passed a Viaduct Plan to build an elevated rail system. But when I read about Charles Harvey's elevated rail it clams that in 1870 Tweed tried to shut down the el by passing a bill stating that the el was a public nascence. This information comes from the same text. I was wondering if someone would had any information that could help me clear up this contradiction. Thank you very much for your time
Pete
Politicians contradicting themselves?? Say it isn't so! Seriously, if I remember correctly (and keep in mind I was very young in the 1870's) Tweed fought the Harvey El because it threatened to eat into the profits of the streetcar companies who paid tribute to Tweed. His Viaduct plan would have reaped financial benifits for himself directly since his interests would have had a direct hand in building it.
Others on this board should be able to fill in more of the details on this interesting slice of history. If no one else does come forward with the details look for James Blaine Walker's "Fifty Years of Rapid Transit." If I remember correctly (that appears to be one of my favorite phrases) this book goes into detail on the Tweed Ring's involvement in transit history. Hard to find but inter-library loan may be a possible way to find a copy. Lots of luck.
Alan Glick
If I remember correctly, the video "Subway - Empire Beneath The Streets" had a decent segment on Tweed, the viaduct plan and Beach.
Also, you might want to look at the transcript for The American Experience: new York Underground" for some additional information of the early days of the New York subway.
Also at the same site:
- The Secret Subway (Beach's tube)
- A bibliography of works covering the early days of the subway
Good luck!
You might even want to share your paper on this site when you complete it - I am sure it would be a welcome addition to the history we are trying to compile on the site.
--Mark
i recently sent out 3 new railfan vidieos !! however my new e mail address is
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com or asiaticommunications@mailcity.com
I STILL HAVE THE # 7 shot night and day # 2-5 A Q E railfan shot thru the front window !!!
I sent a vidieo to mr MARK SALEMAN 73d avenue kew gardens hills NEW YORK
THE # 7 VIDIEO SHOULD ARRIVE ANY DAY NOW !!
please send me an E MAIL AT MY NEW E MAIL ADDRESS asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
thank you to all who ordered and like my railfan vidieos !!!!
02/09/2000
How did you manage to tape the #7 at night through a front window? Didn't you get any inside car light reflections?
Bill Newkirk
good morning MR BILL NEWKIRK !!
i used a sony tr 86 8mm camcorder with a 0.6 wide angle lens
a tripod a light and under $ 40.oo type with all three legs were used also
then a towell was thrown around the lens to prevent glareback sonetimes it happened anyway...
a 12 volt drycell battery was uses thru a psix 6 volt converter to the camcorder was used
so there i am pressed up against the railfan window fighting to HOLD ON TO A WILD BUCKING HORSE
as some redbirds do throw you around very hard !! my feet and legs almost turned into rubbber!!
i kept the lens held up against the railfan window as best as i can but as i looked thru the viewfinder
lens i was very happy to see the beautiful colors and keep the focus lock on manual....
thank you for your question!! i hope to be in new york this march 2000 god willing!!
thank you for frailfan tape info asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
Sounds like you knew what you were doing there!
I did some cab ride videotapes out here in California on Metrolink, Amtrak, and Caltrain (and the LA Blue Line). I used a full-size VHS camcorder, and a little heftier tripod. I did entire routes, and before we started, I'd climb up on locomotive noses and cleaned the windows!! (Engineers really appreciated that!!!)
As for the tripod situation and the rough rides -- Caltrain up in the San Francisco was what made me buy the heftier tripod. The first tape I made there was so bumpy (between their lousy track and rough-riding gallery cab cars....) that I had to re-do it.
Dear Willie, received the tape this afternoon mail, have not had a chance to view it, will do tomorrow. Thanks, and I will let you know how Iliked it. Brighton Beach Bob
Just out of curiosity, does your camcorder have that image stabilization feature that's being touted?
good morning MR BILL NEWKIRK !!
i used a sony tr 86 8mm camcorder with a 0.6 wide angle lens
a tripod a light and under $ 40.oo type with all three legs were used also
then a towell was thrown around the lens to prevent glareback sonetimes it happened anyway...
a 12 volt drycell battery was uses thru a psix 6 volt converter to the camcorder was used
so there i am pressed up against the railfan window fighting to HOLD ON TO A WILD BUCKING HORSE
as some redbirds do throw you around very hard !! my feet and legs almost turned into rubbber!!
i kept the lens held up against the railfan window as best as i can but as i looked thru the viewfinder
lens i was very happy to see the beautiful colors and keep the focus lock on manual....
thank you for your question!! i hope to be in new york this march 2000 god willing!!
thank you for frailfan tape info asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
Sounds like you knew what you were doing there!
I did some cab ride videotapes out here in California on Metrolink, Amtrak, and Caltrain (and the LA Blue Line). I used a full-size VHS camcorder, and a little heftier tripod. I did entire routes, and before we started, I'd climb up on locomotive noses and cleaned the windows!! (Engineers really appreciated that!!!)
As for the tripod situation and the rough rides -- Caltrain up in the San Francisco was what made me buy the heftier tripod. The first tape I made there was so bumpy (between their lousy track and rough-riding gallery cab cars....) that I had to re-do it.
Dear Willie, received the tape this afternoon mail, have not had a chance to view it, will do tomorrow. Thanks, and I will let you know how Iliked it. Brighton Beach Bob
Just out of curiosity, does your camcorder have that image stabilization feature that's being touted?
02/08/2000
I am posting this on Tuesday the 8th, but yesterday on Monday February 7th, I was told by a very good source that the last run of the LIRR old push pull coaches was yesterday (7th).
I was told that it was an Oyster Bay train, did anybody hear anything on this? But knowing the LIRR, anything is possible such as putting it back in service for some reason or another.
Bill Newkirk
/*I was told that it was an Oyster Bay train, did anybody hear anything on this?*/
No, but the OB line always gets screwed by the LIRR, so I an believe it. Bad enough they never finished electrifying - it was the last to lose steam also.
/* But knowing the LIRR, anything is possible such as putting it back in service for some reason or another. */
Sure, the new stuff isn't working. I hear a few locomotives are being robbed for parts already...
I was just wondering. Is there any reason why the new tri-level coaches couldn't be pulled by the older diesel locomotives? Of course I'm not talking about dual modes.
Phil can correct me on this, but there are certain incomatability issues that cannot be resolved. The older locomotives supply a power of 600 volts from the Head End Power generator (that is locos, equipped with HEP) to the conventional diesel coaches. If you saw a GP38 pulling coaches with no power pack, the locomotive isn't equipped with the HEP generator, but the 2900 series diesel coaches would have their own generators to supply power. The Bilevels on the other hand, need 480 volts for operation. When the C1s were delivered some years ago, the GP38s were assigned to the train with a modified FA power pack numbered 3100. I should actually be saying FB powerpack; 3100 lost it's cab when it was modified. Who knows if it's still on the property? The powerpack and GP38s used were subsequently replaced with the rebuilt FL9s from Metro North. As is, the newer C3s are incompatible with the FL9s and older C1 coaches.
You will never see the older locomotives in train with the newer coaches unless the train is being towed for yard moves.
-Stef
I actually have on video an old locomotive (I don't know the model numbers) coupled to one of the new bi-level locos going W/B at the Main St crossing in Mineola. (by Nassau Tower) There were no other cars, just the 2 locomotives. I was there with my 3 yr old son Arthur taking videos of him narrating the trains at rush hour. I only had the cam on when the gates went down so it was one train after another. All of the sudden that train of the old and new locos came through. Unfortunately I was so surprised I said an expletive!! (Oh S--t)
Yeah the locos couple (but I don't think they MU), the cars couple too. But they don't MU either. I think the LIRR stood alone in their use of 600V DC HEP, but it made sense because that's what the old electrics used. I believe GE proposed this setup to the LIRR.
Does anyone know when the last Alco cab unit still with it's origional 241 in it left service?
Also - I know a few of the MP-15s were used as power packs - could they also move under their own power, or were they motorless like the cab units were?
MP15s as motorless powerpacks? No way! These units can operate under their own power. As I recalled for an excursion some years ago on Metro North, the train was powered by an FA powerpack, several coaches and 2 MP15s. I don't think you always need a GP38 to pull this train...
-Stef
Several of the MP15AC's on LIRR were modified so that they could either propel a train by using their traction motors, or at the flip of a switch in the cab, function as a powerpack; when doing so, their traction motors did NOT receive electrical power and would not assist in propelling a train. They could NOT propel a train (using traction motors) AND provide HEP (as a "power pack") at the same time. It was one or the other.
The ones that received this modification had a letter "P" decal applied under the numbers on the units' ends. When they were operating as a "power pack", there had to be a locomotive at the opposite end of the train (well, it COULD be on the same end) to
propel the train down the tracks. The MP15AC being used as a "power pack" would run at constant speed. I believe I read somewhere that it would run in the equivalent of throttle positon #6 (on EMD locos, there are usually 8 positions; most GE freight engines actually had 16).
NMN GOOD RIDDANCE! MNM
Diesel coaches! PHOOEY! PTUI! PHTHTUI!!!! POOH! PTOO! BHLECCCH!!!!
Glad to see you go go go go, GOODBYE! *
Wayne
"Glad To See You Go" Lyrics and music by The Ramones
(C) 1977 Taco Tunes BMI All Rights Reserved
Geez. I think something hit one of Wayne's nerves. :-)
And to think (now I'm gonna show my age...) I remember when the LIRR diesel coaches and m.u.'s converted to push-pull cars were BRAND NEW!
02/08/2000
RE: Remaining LIRR Powerpacks.
I was told that FA POwerpacks 605, 607, 608(3100), 609, 611 and 613 may be remaining on the property, unless they did a disappearing act.
#617 is said to in the hands of the Danbury Railroad Museum. Why not!, it's ex-New Haven #0428.
Bill Newkirk
The unpleasant memory of a recent ride aboard #2801 still hangs heavy in my nose. It smelt like a sewer as the bowl was plugged and the door to it wouldn't close. The windows were impossible to see out of. There was no heat. The lights kept going on and off. It pitched and rocked like a ship at sea. It was a foul ride.
Diesel coaches, RUST IN PEACE!
wayne
Still laughing at your impressions of the LIRR coaches.
One thing I will say, having ridden the damn things since they were brand new -- they ALWAYS rocked like a tugboat in a typhoon, even when they were still new and shiny (if you can believe such a state ever existed).
There'sonly one bunch of railroad cars I've ridden in all my life that ride worse.....the double-deck gallery cars on the San Francisco peninsula "Caltrain" commuter operation. Of course, I think they took lessons from LIRR in track maintenance.
Gezzer! :)
On the other hand, I only remember when the R62 and R68 were new. Now I'll have the R142 and R143. I haven't seen enough new cars. :(
-Hank
Yeah, Hank, I'm an old geezer!
And just to REALLy make you feel young, I remember riding on Staten Island Ferry boats that were powered by STEAM!!!
I was around when the R-62s and R-68s were new, but I don't remember, so HA! The R-142 will be my first actual new train.
C'mon, Wayne, they're not that bad!!!!
Two things LIRR riders will never experience again:A conventional railroad carRiding on the platform between cars
Never Say Never
02/09/2000
I guess with the toilet backed up in #2801 Wane had no choice but to ride on the open platform. My two most unpleasant expierences with those cattle cars was one winter when the baseboard heat was so hot, that sitting next to the window I could swear my skin was burning on my leg. The other was in the 70's when the LIRR used that horrendous green plexiglass for the windows. When riding a Jamaica to Babylon Express on a bright sunny day looking out the window. After leaving the train at Babylon and walking in the daylight, my vision had the colors reversed or something like that. That wore off a few minutes later.
Bill Newkirk
Yes, I did ride out in the vestibule from approx. Holban Yard (between Jama and St.Albans) all the way to Babylon. I had actually secured a seat on the train (with a huge depression in it that caused my posterior to sag halfway to the car floor) but it was so unpleasant that I decided to head out to fresher (??? the diesel engine, pushing the train, was snarling away right behind us) air once the conductor had collected by ticket. Did I smoke out there? You betcha dupa I did! :o>
Wayne
[C'mon, Wayne, they're not that bad!!!!]
[Two things LIRR riders will never experience again:]
[A conventional railroad car]
[Riding on the platform between cars]
....and getting hit with snowballs while doing same!!!
(Now *I* have experienced that -- it put a quick end to riding between cars on the LIRR!)
Last Thursday I headed south from New Jersey to do some riding, in conjunction with my younger daughter's law school interview in D.C. So I headed for Baltimore, where I had previously seen and photographed the light rail but never ridden it. Here's a brief report.
Arrived at Hunt Valley Mall, or what's left of it, shortly before noon. Went in search of Kodachrome (found a couple of rolls) and lunch (not many choices, but the food court isn't totally abandoned yet). Bought my $3 day pass at the vending machine on the platform and boarded a two-car train, destination Cromwell/Glen Burnie (known locally as simply Cromwell). This line is designated as the Blue Line on the Baltimore Light Rail map. Spotted the Baltimore Streetcar Museum off on the left near the Falls Road stop - more about that in part two. As we approached Linthicum there was a building on the right that appeared to have been a station for the WB&A line that once ran on nearly the same right-of-way; south of Linthicum there was much additional evidence of that old interurban. At Cromwell sat diesel switcher 805, which bore substantial resemblance to a GE 44-tonner but which Dan Lawrence tells me is powered by four GM diesel bus engines. It was behind a fence but I took a couple of photos anyway. Rode back up to Linthicum and changed for a single-car Yellow Line train to BWI airport. (The two lines share trackage from Linthicum to University of Baltimore/Mt. Royal stations.) Rode that same train back to the other end of the yellow line at Penn Station and took a few minutes to walk through the station, mostly rehabbed now but with some work still going on. Boarded another single-car train and rode it back south two stops to Cultural Center, where I disembarked and walked two blocks to the State Center subway station. After a several-minute wait for a delayed train (no mention as to why it was delayed, but there were station announcements every two minutes or so) I boarded a train headed to Johns Hopkins. Since I hadn't been able to claim the railfan seat I waited for the next train back to Owings Mills and rode in comfort, with a view. Reversed direction at Owings Mills and returned to State Center, walked the two blocks to Cultural Center, and rode a two-car train back to Hunt Valley Mall, arriving there about 6:30.
A couple of observations:
The light rail system is proof-of-payment. Fare machines offer Susans in change. Police officers will board trains at random and ask to see your ticket. If you don't have one, you are escorted from the train and issued a citation that is the logical equivalent of a traffic ticket but which carries a stiff penalty - up to $500, I believe. I observed only one officer checking fares during the time I was riding but he only had to check four or five people before he found two without valid passes and escorted them from the train. For the minimal amount it costs - $1.35 one way, $3.00 for unlimited all-day riding, subway included - there's no excuse.
The system is single-tracked in places, which reduces headway below the ideal. I don't know what if any plans exist to double-track those sections; in some places it would be easy, in others it would be quite difficult. The headway appeared to be adequate, however; on the other hand, at rush hours the cars did get quite full.
Around Lutherville, on the northbound trip to Hunt Valley, a fight broke out in the rear portion of the front car. How it started I don't know, but it involved a seedy-looking older man and two women who I presume were mother (mid-30s) and daughter (about 15). The women were screaming at the man to leave them alone, which he wasn't inclined to do, even after being kicked several times by them. One of the other passengers called the T/O on the intercom about the disturbance but the T/O did nothing. Another passenger got in between them around Gilroy Road but the screaming continued all the way to Hunt Valley; the women fled hurridly to their car in the mall parking lot while the man headed for his in the park-and-ride lot.
Both the light rail and subway cars are quite comfortable, and both can make a run for it when they don't have close stops. The light rail does get delayed substantially in the downtown area, however, since it runs on city streets and does not have traffic-light pre-emption. Syncing the traffic lights with the trains would improve things significantly, I believe.
All in all, an enjoyable afternoon of railfanning.
Part two (Baltimore Streetcar Museum) to follow when I'm not falling asleep at the keyboard.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They are going to double track it. More at mtamaryland.com.
Nice report, with only one error: the Baltimore Streetcar Museum is nearest to the North Avenue station, not Falls Road which is some distance north.
Did the light rail trains you rode have to stop before entering a single-track area (i.e. north of Cold Spring Lane or somewhere between Falls Road and Lutherville)? Also, did your trains stop to change operators at the yard north of North Ave.?
Glad to see you enjoyed your visit!
Sorry about the error in geography - on the way south I was having a most interesting conversation with an older woman who, like my wife, is a writer so I wasn't paying as much attention as I might have to details.
As I recall, the only times we stopped before entering single track territory was northbound from Cromwell and from BWI, just south of the transfer station. When heading out to BWI I observed a train stopped at the end of the double track from the station, waiting for us, but we didn't have to make that stop when we were headed for Penn Station as the BWI-bound train had already passed. While waiting at Linthicum for the BWI train I also observed a Cromwell train waiting just north of the station for a Penn Station train to pass.
I don't recall an operator change at the yard, but the Penn Station train changed operators at University of Baltimore - Mt. Royal.
All in all, an enjoyable visit. I've been driving by for so many years (I commute between North Carolina and New Jersey) and just haven't had the time to stop, I'm glad I finally did.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've been informed by Lou Shavell of the Branford Electric Railway Association that the car I never cease to work on, #6688 is about to become the star of a show this coming weekend, 2/12. A movie production company has rented the car out for a few hours and will be out and running during the hours after the sun has gone down for the day. It should be interesting as the production company will be shooting interior shots of the car. So if you see a car with orange doors and a circular storm door window in some feature film, you'll know that it's the car that's always full of surprises, 6688! Don't ask what's being shot; it's unknown to me at this point.
Note: Weather permitting, we'll actually come out with the car. Since the paint is partially removed from the car, it has no protection from the elements. It will move if the night is clear, otherwise it will have to be grounded.
-Stef
Great news! Too bad I wont be able to be up north to see it. It's also a good thing for the museum, financially anyway. I seem to remember my old man telling me about BRT 4573 being used in a movie during the early 70's as well as 1425 in Ironweed
Right! Hey, it's good publicity for the Museum, you know? Certainly we can always use the money to complete more projects...
Regards,
Stef
where is it located at in Conn.??
It's just North of New Haven, CT. By car you would take 95 to exit 51, then follow signs & the service road north until a right turn, then a left at a "green". By mass transit it would be M-N (New Haven) to NH, then a bus comes very close, but watch your schedule as they don't run 24 hours a day up there.
Mr t__:^)
The fare is $11.50 from GCT or 125th St to New Haven, and you may take public transit at NH for a $1 or for a more direct trip, board a cab at NH Union Station which will take you to the doorstep of the Museum. Go to http: //www.bera.org for details.
-Stef
Furthermore, the cab ride will cost more or less $10 to get to the Museum.
-Stef
02/09/2000
Thurston,
You must mean EAST of New Haven, which is East Haven proper. North of New Haven and you're heading up I-91 to Warehouse Point !
Bill Newkirk
Bill, You are correct. There are a lot of "Haven's" around NH. North Haven is in fact North on route 91, but they consider 95 a North/South road so Branford is kind of north of NH, but on 95. 95 makes a jog East of NH, but is still 95 vs. 96 or 94 there. I knew exactly what I ment as I've been driving to/from a spot "down the road a piece" of there for more then 30 years. Sometimes you forget that not eveyone know the area "like the back of your hand", sorry about that.
Mr t__:^)
I've seen "East" and "West" direction signs for I-95 in Connecticut as well as US 1, both of which are north/south routes. Ditto for I-287 signs in the Tappan Zee Bridge area.
P. S. There is also West Haven, CT. There is no South Haven for obvious reasons. You'd find yourself on Long Island Sound otherwise.
That's an interesting power setup on that car- no doubt the only IRT car sporting a trolley pole!
Not really. Branford's IRT Lo-V and Hi-V cars also sport trolley poles. In terms of modern cars though, the R17 is indeed the only Rapid Transit Vehicle to have a trolley pole.
Regards,
Stef
There's an R4 at some museum that also has a trolley pole. If I could find the book, I'd tell you exactly where.
-Hank
That would be Sea Shore in ME and soon, hopefully, a R-16 in Kingston.
Mr t__:^)
Correct Mr. T, at Seashore we have R4 #800 and R7A #1440, which are equipped with trolley poles for operation. Pictures of them are available on this site in the Museum Pages.
And as long as we're on the subject ... add R-9 #1689 which runs just fine under wire at Shoreline/Branford. Have you folks in ME ever linked the R-4 & R-7A so someone could "assume the position" between the cars to close the doors ? That's another one of those events that only some of us remember happening in revenue service.
Mr t__:^)
In fact, Mr., T., we almost always run the cars as a pair, as pictured here.
A pair of old IND Rs going express uptown, looks like another good reason for a Field Trip to Kennebunkport. I can't wait !
Thanks for the preview.
Mr t__:^)
Ahhh ... been there, done that!
--Mark
Believe me, I am DROOLING at the prospect of doing that, if and when I ever make it up to Seashore. They would have to surgically remove me from those step plates.
Lest we forget, Shoreline's own R-9 1698 has a trolley pole. Ditto for Seashore's Gibbs Hi-V 3352. Should we include CTA 4280? It came from the factory with trolley poles.
If you want to go sown that road so did all the BRT BU cars at Shoreline!! And steps and traps too!
Yes, but sadly the CTA, Standard & SIRT cars are in the back lot right now, so they can't come out and play. It's probally time for Branford to build another barn for these BIG boys in the collection.
Mr t__:^)
I think you mean 1689.
-Stef
That's why they're doing the shooting under dusk/nighttime conditions -- an old cinematic trick is to film at night to hide any imperfections on an object.
And of course shooting the interior at night is good for hiding the background (surrounding area) if they are doing something with the car where it's supposed to be in service in the subway or on an El.
Doug aka BMTman
02/09/2000
I hope Branford charged a pretty penny for use of the R-17. Not because of greed but because any volunteer staffed museum needs all the money it can get for day to day operations and future restorations.
Bill Newkirk
And make sure they don't cut one of the poles in the car.
Didn't this happen on a movie shoot on the 7?
The production company wanted to cut one of the heavy center poles (under the AC unit) and the TA said no it is a saftey issue (ie, holding up hte AC).
Wouldn't have been easier in that case just to direct the production crew to an R-33WF than to end up with an AC unit hanging sideways in the aisle?
The Branford 3/4 Ton Crew made up of myself (Mr. R17? dubbed by Mr. t), Lou "SMEE" Shavell, Mr. t, Doug aka BMTman, and Lou from Brooklyn are scheduled to perform a rather lengthy R17 project on Saturday 2/19. We are scheduled to come out into the yard this day for removal of the fan assemblies for thorough cleaning and to clear the vents in the roofline of steel dust and other muck. Anybody who's been on the car for a NY Event might have noticed some loose dirt coming out of the fan assembly while the car was in motion and it's up to us to fix this problem. The roof needs to be clear of all debris before it gets painted. Mechanical extraordinaire, Jeff H. will be examining the damper motors to investigate the possibility of utilizing them at some future time. My only argument to the use of the damper motors is to the exact time when they were no longer used. If they weren't used in the 1980s, then I'd expect to leave them deactivated for now, because working dampers would make the car decidedly inauthentic in my opinion. However, using them is not totally out of the question assuming that Jeff can make them work. As Lou Shavell pointed out in a previous post, the damper motors were responsible for the circulation of air in the car, but were left to burn out in the 70s during the deferred maintenance period. The entire process of cleaning and may take up to 7 hours of precious time.
Those who want to complain about how the R33 single sucks, go ahead, but the cars may have been actually better at some time in the past then they are now, because the damper motors were working. If you should complain, the fans in the R10 and in the Q Cars didn't do you any justice; those homestyle fans probably made an already bad situation worse. Look at it this way; the BUs didn't even have fans. How were you expected to complete your commute in the summer months?
-Stef (Mr. R17?)
Eye should add that we're sensitive to all the bad stuff they may have been deposited above the ceiling, so one of us has got his hands on some disposable coveralls, plus we will be wareing masks ... it's going to be a realy dirty job !
The good news is, like the restoration work being done to trolley cars at this same museum, when we're done THIS Red Bird will be able to give customers joy for many more years to come. This writer is very pleased to be a small part of this.
Mr t__:^)
The core group of Rapid Transit enthusiasts at Branford has done an excellent job at getting this car and many others presentable and stable. I don't visit there as often as I would like, but I did happen by there on one of the New York days two years ago.
Seashore has a few New York, Chicago and Philly cars and a fairly extensive rapid transit collection from Boston, but we do not have the large and dedicated crew that you muster to get these projects done, thus progress is often glacial!.
Good luck with this project!
[The core group of Rapid Transit enthusiasts at Branford has done an excellent job at getting this car and many others presentable and stable.]
This is true, BUT all these museums can always use a few more hands.
That's what is evolving on this site as the scope of those that look in here expands beyond NYC. If a few more subway buffs could find a way to start comming to Branford they could begin work on another subway car in the collection, that would be a good thing, BUT I'm not a selfish person ... my point is that I hope a few out-of-town SubTalks find a subway car that needs some TLC in their own back yard and join the museum there. That would be a very good thing.
Mr t__:^)
02/09/2000
I remember those damper motors opening up the vents on the R-32's when they were new. It would start at one end of the car, you would hear a motor sound in the ceiling then shut off, then the next section would repeat the process and all the way down to the other end of the car. Usually the fans were turning slow would speed up.
This process probably did die out during the deferred maintenance period as stated before.
Bill Newkirk
We love all those SOUNDs of the cars, I once complained to the Lo-V operator that he had the O/H fans off, as I wanted to hear the wopp wopp squeak squeak ... he turned them on.
Mr t__:^)
I liked the sounds of the fans on 1689: wada-wada-wada-wada.
It's safe to say Stef has been officially dubbed Mr. R-17 - and not by me!-)
That's it! It should be my new handle. Any protests?
-Mr. R17
02/10/2000
You have my blessings !
Bill Newkirk
Thank You!
-The Man Sometimes Known As Mr. R17, Stef
02/11/2000
Stef,
I guess with you and ChrisR16 around, PORTHOLE WINDOWS RULE!.
Now let's wait for someone to adopt an R-11 or R-15 for their "handle". Unless someone adopts R-10 #3047 with Bill Padron's permission!!!
Bill Newkirk
I'm sure if they used that specific handle; i. e., R-10 #3047, William wouldn't mind. It wouldn't hurt to ask, though. I haven't seen him use the Mister R-10 handle, but it is specially reserved for him, and rightfully so.
Mr. R16 approves and welcomes his more-popular little brother to Subtalk.
Go for it!
They didn't stop working so much from neglect as a deliberate
modification. The jumper wires are clearly visible in 6688's
heating & ventilating control panel under the car. They jumped
the damper motors to the closed position and hard-wired the fans
to maximum speed. I'm trying to determine the exact date this
was performed....no record of it in the blueprints we received
with the car.
Funny, the same mod was done to 6398 at the TMNY. That car had an AC motor connected to the pot of the fans. The dampers haven't work in ages too. Something to figure out this summer. However the fan potentiometer can be turned by hand to adjust the speed. Good luck.
I checked 10 minutes ago on the NYC web site and found that the answers to the T/O exam have been published.
Best luck to all for a successful completion of the exam.
Go to http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/dcas/html/examkeys.html for exam results.
-Stef
That's great. I'll check when I get home in the morning. Thanks Stef and Good Luck.
Thanks, Paul. Perhaps, we'll get what we want.
I'm not gonna start bragging here about what I scored on the test, but I don't mind telling you what I scored on the exam. Out of 70 questions, I got 62 of them right. That's an equivalent of 88.57%. I am not making this up. My experience at the Shore Line Trolley and Transit Museums helped me greatly. It's possible to learn from others, even from the kind folks on this site.
Anyone here got 90% or better? Common and fess up! Let's attempt to be truthful, please?
For the critics who thought that passing was not possible without the book, I proved you wrong. I still did well.
-Stef
After checking my test sheet, I got 61 out of 70 which put me below 90%. I think thats not a bad score for someone who has learned much from this website. You can't find any books or schools that will teach you about the NYC transit system.
Good Luck Stef.
Thank You Friend. Now, if they could only make up a hiring list....
Regards,
Stef
Stef,
That is your raw score. Now comes the protest time where you can protest an answer to a question. Even if you didn't file a protest and one is upheld your score can go up.
Many types of things can happen, they can accept two answers to a question or more. They can throw out a question and your raw score will automagicly go up.
Also remember, people with the same score are ranked on the order that they filed for the exam so you can get a higher list number (or lower) depending when you filed.
Good Luck, keep your fingers crossed (that might effect your operation of the R17 though).
(BTW, currently I have no Email, my notebook is blown, I'm using the training sites browser to connect >G<)
That's good to hear. I'll hope for the best....
You mean I can't operate the R17 with my fingers crossed? (Hehehe)
-Stef
NewsDay has been running a daily on famous Long Island residents. Monday it was Robert Moses, born 1888 died 1981.
- 1,700 projects done in metropolitian area
- 2.5M acres of parks created
- 568 playgrounds created
- 250,000 people displaced to create 416 miles of roads
- 12 bridges built, all withOUT provision for mass transit
- Never got a driver's license
Jones Beach is nice, but this was a bad man for NYC.
Mr t__:^)
Moses despised rapit transit. I heard that when an engineer proposed a lane for trains when building the Long Island Parking Lot (Expressway), not only did he not give the engineer's idea any creedence, he fired the engineer.
Moses did much to screw the New York sports fan. It was his refusal to give land at Atlantic and Flatbush for a new stadium for the Dodgers that prompted Walter O'Malley to move that historic franchise to the West Coast. He refused to make the improvements in rail transportation even though O'Malley was willing to commit over five million dollars to buy the land and develop it. You are right, Moses' big bag was highway transportation that led out of the city.
The land at Atlantic and Flatbush was, and still is owned by the Long Island Rail Road. That has NOTHING to do with Moses.
My understanding was that O'Malley's interest in a new Brooklyn ballpark was zero--that he strung the city along for a while in the hopes that, when he asked for the moon and they didn't give it to him, he'd have a pat excuse to head from Flatbush to Chavez Ravine. (I suspect RM is looking over from his spot of eternal torment to O'Malley's right now and thinking, "Hey, I've got it pretty easy.")
That's a canard. There was no guarantee that Mayor Poulson of Los Angeles was going to be able to get O'Malley the Chavez Ravine territory.. Councilman McClellan was dead set against it. If he could have gotten Atlantic and Flatbush for his new stadium, the Dodgers would not have moved. O'Malley was waiting for the best deal and New York's was a crooked deal, so he left.
There was a certain arrogance among New York City officials for a long time -- "We're New York, nobody would leave us." -- which led to the loss of the Dodgers and Giants and later, to losing both the Giants and Jets to the Meadowlands. It's also the same mindset the led to the skyrockting tax rates in the city -- "Those people and those big corporations like Mobil, J.C. Penney, American Airlines, etc., would never leave New York, no matter how hike we jack up tax rates to pay for programs to help get us re-elected."
Well, surprise! They did, and its only been in the last couple of years with the current economic boom that the city has gotten back on its feet. In today's economy, people and companies can operate from almost anywhere, so it's a lot tougher to be so self-assured (and also why companies can get those property tax breaks they couldn't 30 years ago)
[There was a certain arrogance among New York City officials for a long time -- "We're New York, nobody would leave us." -- which led to the loss of the Dodgers and Giants and later, to losing both the Giants and Jets to the Meadowlands. It's also the same mindset the led to the skyrockting tax rates in the city -- "Those people and those big corporations like Mobil, J.C. Penney, American Airlines, etc., would never leave New York, no matter how hike we jack up tax rates to pay for programs to help get us re-elected."
Well, surprise! They did, and its only been in the last couple of years with the current economic boom that the city has gotten back on its feet. In today's economy, people and companies can operate from almost anywhere, so it's a lot tougher to be so self-assured (and also why companies can get those property tax breaks they couldn't 30 years ago)]
As odious as these tax breaks may be, the fact that the city's willing to make them at least shows that a more humble attitude prevails. City officials finally have had it drummed through their thick heads that businesses *will* leave if it's in their best interests to do so. It's too bad that the lesson had to be learned the hard way, through the loss of Mobil, J.C. Penney, etc. (I believe American Airlines, the other case you cited, has been in Dallas for many years). Better late than never, I guess.
The city is still arrogant, but toward different people. It throws tax breaks at large companies, but imposes discimintory taxes on new businesses -- ie. the unincorporated business tax.
It is a lot easier to measure businesses that leave than it is to measure those that never show up. Because a lot of people want to be here, and land is fixed, NYC will never be a low cost location. Tax breaks just lead to higher rents. The business equation is simple -- come to New York to increase revenues, leave NY to cut costs. Big, established companies are bound to leave sooner or later.
The tax breaks -- and the unincoroporated business tax -- should be eliminated.
[The city is still arrogant, but toward different people. It throws tax breaks at large companies, but imposes discimintory taxes on new businesses -- ie. the unincorporated business tax.]
While the unincorporated business tax (UBT) may have become an obstacle to economic growth, it isn't or at least wasn't a totally irrational thing. More than most other cities, New York has many large, often highly profitable businesses that are organized as partnerships, LLC's, or otherwise along non-corporate lines: law firms, accounting firms, consulting businesses, advertising agencies, and so on. Without the UBT, they would escape entity-level taxation and therefore would enjoy a competitive advantage over similar businesses organized as corporations. One might view the UBT as a means of levelling the playing field.
Still, the UBT sounds like an instrument that could be deployed in a more sophisticated way (I say "sounds like" because this is the first time I've heard of it); I agree with Larry that the City's first priority in applying the tax should be to encourage new businesses. To borrow a formulation from Ken Jackson: there are real incentives to *start* a business in New York--ready access to any kind of labor, convenient suppliers, shipping routes, etc., everything that the city's density entails. At a certain point in a business' growth that same density becomes a disadvantage, because once you're big enough all of the above will come to you wherever you are. So there's a pretty sensible reason to go to the burbs and build a company town rather than pay for city rents, taxes, congestion, and cost of living. Rather than spend money in the form of counter-incentives to megacorporations to get water to flow uphill, the City would do well to incubate its natural constituency of mid-size businesses (and wait to tax the pants off them until they all have pants). I'm sure it's a paradigm that has only a tenuous grip on reality, but it's interesting, especially since it does seem to describe the much-trumpeted "Silicon Alley" outfits pretty well (Jackson was mainly thinking of light manufacturing).
The UBT has been eliminated for a net profit of $50,000 or less. There is a credit that phases out over the next $30,000 of income, so a flat 4% is paid on net incomes over $80,000. If the tax can't be eliminated (which it should) it should be reduced. If I am a self employed individual in Queens earning $200,000 (I'm not, this is just an example), by moving a few miles east to Nassau, he can save over $10,000 in UBT and NYC income taxes. (This of course is not taking into account higher property taxes in Nassau). But if the self-employed person earns substantially more, the incentive to move is there. In this day and age, it is not necessary to live in the city to earn your bread.
I agree it should be cut or eliminated. Corporations don't pay personal income taxes, and their profits are increasingly paid out in the form of tax reduced captial gains. But entreprenuers do pay personal income taxes.
Who is really discriminated against in NYC? If I had the same income, and lived in the same house, and changed my skin color to Black, I'd pay the same tax. But if I changed from a civil servant to self employed, my taxes would go up. (If I were a Black self-employed person I'd be really bad off, but that's another story.) It's discrimination.
There is a hierarchy in the tax code -- and in the zoning and other regulations. "Non-profits" are at the top. They aren't taxed, and the city bends over backward to give them more lenient regulations. Large coroporations are next. They get tax breaks, and hire politically connected lawywer to get around regulations. Then comes the government. Business owners are at the bottom. It is economic suicide.
New businesses are one of the "losers" in this city and state, along with NYC's public schools, the transportation infrastructure, and suburban property tax payers. Neither party represents the interests of these losers.
(New businesses are one of the "losers" in this city and state, along with NYC's public schools, the transportation infrastructure, and suburban property tax payers. Neither party represents the interests of these losers.)
You are right on the mark. It's a cash cow and no one is going to give it up. If homeowners in Nassau Cty. think their taxes will go down now that they threw out the Republicans, think again. They will only go higher.
Since all the little people at the bottom will never get together, they are too concerned about what is on television tonite, nothing will change.
I've been trying to figure out a way out of this for some time. I even signed up for the Independence aka Reform Party, and have tried to convince them to run a campaign against the NYC state legislature. All they'd have to do is take enough seats in the NY State Senate (6) to take away the Republican majority, and in the NYS State Assembly (22) to take away the Democratic majority, and all hell would break loose. We might even get the 2nd Avenue subway.
Then Pat Buchanan, Abe Hirshfeld, Donald Trump all joined too, and the party seems to be breaking up. I'm told David Duke is interested. Oh well.
Maybe the Reform Party can join up with the Democrats. They're both two peas in a pod.
No politics Fred, or Willy Fred lives at@+*%
CEO Robert Crandall moved American Airlines out of New York City to a site south of the Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport in 1978. Since the Airline began in Texas and then moved to New York (following the path of Texaco), I guess you could say it was just returning home. But I remember the attitude even in the post-bankruptcy late-70s was still along the lines of "No problem, we'll just get another Fortune 500 company."
There may still be arrogance in N.Y.C., but it's way down from 20 years ago. And it's still less annoying than those corporations like Mobil and Gannett that moved to the Washington D.C. area so thay could be closer to their government lobbyists.
In some respect, its probably better that the Dodgers left when they did. Had they gotten their new ball park assuming it would have been built about 1960), by the 1970 they would have been complaining about the neighborhood, ala the Yankess and by the mid 1980's would have been complaining that the stadium is old and obsolete, ala the Yankess and the Mets.
I can't see the Yankees or Mets ever leaving New York becuase there are no large markets left for them to go to. (The Dodgers may have had it great in LA, but its been a disaster for the Giants in San Francisco.) Had the Los Angeles not been offered an expansion franchise in the 1960's, my bet is the Dodgers would have left for there anyway. And even if it was, they probably would have ended up in Arizona, Colorado or Florida. The latest they would have been around is 1970, no matter what we gave them.
The Mets would have played in that stadium for a few yeas, as they did in the Polo Grounds for two years. But they would have wanted a new stadium and any stadium built where Shea is now would have cost the city much more money to build in the 1970's. And of course by now it would be old and obsolete and they would want a new one.
Who wants to bet that within ten years, Baltimore will complain that Camden Yards is old, as will Cleveland, Texas etc. It seems the shelf life of a new stadium is only 20 years. I would rather spend the money on the 2nd Avenue Subway, the N to LaGuardia, extensions of other Brooklyn and Queens lines than to dedicate $1 billion of taxpayer money for new stadiums. (See, I got back on topic!) Let the rich owners build their own stadiums.
If it were a free market, and not a monopoly, there would be more major league baseball, football, and basketball teams in NYC. Steinbrenner wouldn't be able to threaten to move to NJ, because they'd already have a team. The small market/large market problem would disappear.
Rather than give them a billion dollars, I'd rather spend $50 million on an anti-trust lawsuit.
I don't know how much Steinbrenner makes each year of the Yankess, but with the cable tv monay, its substantial. These owners can easily afford to build their own stadiums. But why should they when they have suckers (taxpayers) to pay it for them. Then they get a sweeheart rental deal which is less than the city has to pay to maintain the stadiums. The city actually gets more rent from the USTA for two week of the US Open then it gets annually from the Yankees for Yankee Stadium. I don't know how much the Mets pay for Shea.
I want to see our tax dollars used for subway expansion and improvement, not these baseball palaces. The cost of going to a game is already beyond the reach of most people. In these new stadiums, the cost will be even higher. Its no wonder that the seating capacities of these proposed stadiums will be much smallar than toaday's stadiums, if the ordinary person can't afford tickets. If Robert Woods Johnson IV can drop nearly $700 million to buy the Jets, he can drop another $400 million to build his own stadium. Leave the tax dollars for the people, not the multimillionaires.
Johnson dropped the $700 million on the Jets under the assumption (pretty evident from his interviews) that he would be getting a big chunk of it back from some sucker--either in the City or the Meadowlands Authority--in the form of a new stadium. Which isn't to say we should gratify that assumption. ;)
We shouldn't. I can't afford to take my family to a baseball or football game any longer. I can't afford to watch the millionares play. I don't want to pay for Mike Piazza's limo. Therefore, I don't want my tax dollars being spent to build the palace.
That may not apply in Baltimore. Memorial Stadium (Orioles and Colts) was built in 1954 on the site of Municipal (1922) Stadium. The Colts bolted in 1982, and the O's went to Oriole Park (Camden Yards) in 1992. That's 34 years by my math, which means that the O's will be at Oriole Park until 2026. The lease, BTW is for 30 years.
We shall see.
Memorial still molders while groups try to figger out what to do with it.
The way I see it it takes 15-20 years for the team to get the new stadium after they beging to complain. So if the Orioles begin to complain in 2010, they will get ther next stadium by 2025. Shea, when it was built was state of the art. The Mets have been complaining for over 20 years. The Astrodome was the 8th wonder of the world when it opened in 1965. They may raize it when the Astros get their new park. Atlanta Fulton Cty was opend in 1966 and is gone. Candlestick was opended in 1960 and will soon be gone. Both the baseball and football teams want out of Riverfront, Three Rivers and Vets Stadiums which were opened between 1970 and 1972.
The owners want $500 million to build something today, then knock it down in 30 years and build another. It's insane!
It is insane, but Camden Yards at least has hope. What NO ONE likes -- except taxpayers -- is combined baseball/football stadia with artificial turf, especially those blown-up domes. Everyone wants out of those, and they were all built at about the same time in the 1960s and 1970s.
In contrast, the Dodgers have not complained about Dodger Stadium, and in Kansas City (where they built two stadia) everyome seems to be happy with the field, if not with the attendance.
Of course, we have two football teams and two baseball teams. In a free-market without subusides, they would share a stadium whether new or old, making it easily affordable without subsidies. But why not have your own stadium if someone else will pay? If the airlines were organized like sports, every carrier would demand their own publicly funded airport.
Sharing an airport, what a concept!
We only need 1 baseball stadium for both teams, not 2. I mite consider allowing (as if I have any say in this) some public money for 1 stadium (provided the teams put up the bulk of the cash) for road improvements and subway service to the new stadium, but it won't happen. The city will spend $1 billion of our dollars (or more) lining the milionaires pockets, the cost of the nosebleed seats will be $50. Decent reserve seats will be $75-$100. (Forget about the luxery skyboxes) A hotdog will cost $12 and a soda $5.50.
Oh don't forget, cable TV bills will double as well. When a back up infielder who hits .240 makes $3,500,000, someone's gonna pay for it.
The stadium situation is bad, but the indoor arena one is even more of a joke. In the past two years, the Omni in Atlanta (1973) and McNichols Arena in Denver (1979) have gone to the wrecking ball. Up next, Reunion Arena in Dallas (1980), though at least the new building will be about five blocks closer to the light rail station.
If it wasn't for the price of real estate in Manhattan, I'm sure MSG would have gone the same way by now, but apparently it was cheaper to refurbish the inside than to start all over again from scratch. After all, there's just a limited number of classic railroad stations you can rip down for the cheap airspace above, and that other offered site over at 33rd and 11th doesn't have the greatest access in the world (at least not until they extend the No. 7 train over there)
[The stadium situation is bad, but the indoor arena one is even more of a joke. In the past two years, the Omni in Atlanta (1973) and McNichols Arena in Denver (1979) have gone to the wrecking ball. Up next, Reunion Arena in Dallas (1980), though at least the new building will be about five blocks closer to the light rail station.]
Closer to home, the group interested in buying the Islanders has insisted on a replacement for the early-1970's Nassau County Coliseum as a condition of any deal.
Just think about it - subway cars have a substantially longer life expectancy than stadiums and sports arenas :-)
There is one difference -- most Arenas have been privately financed. They get tax breaks (no property taxes), but at least local governments aren't putting up cash.
At least not yet.
Au contrere, at least in the Dallas case. The arena is being mostly financed with taxpayer dollars, which is why when new owner Mark Cubin -- who recently merged his Broadcast.com company to Yahoo for a few billion -- attempted to get a tax break from the city of Dallas for moving Braodcast.com into a larger facility on the east side of downtown, several members of the city council went wild, saying if he has enough money to buy the Mavericks while getting a taxpayer-funded arena, he's got enough money to pay his taxes.
Others argued Cubin would just move into a new building outside the city limits and Dallas would lose the tax money. My feeling is, anyone stupid enough to sign Dennis Rodman to their team should pay the price for something.
McNichols Sports Arena in Denver was built in 1976 in anticipation of the Winter Olympics. The IOC awarded those Games to Denver in 1970, then voters rejected a referendum in 1972 concerning financing them. Anyway, Bic Mac, as it was called, had become outmoded, and is being razed as I write this. The Pepsi Center, OTOH, is state-of-the-art. It's wired for technology which doesn't even exist yet. The proposed Central Platte Valley light rail spur will drop passengers off right at the Pepsi Center's doorstep.
There was talk about building a Madison Square Garden V in the area where they wanted to build the new Yankee Stadium. I first heard this about 1985. Considering that the current Garden opened up in 1967 was absurd.
Do you know if the Capital Center in Landover is being torn down now that the Bulletts (Wizzards) and Capitals have a new home?
Sorry. I was off by three years, but the point still stands -- McNichols, the Omni and Reunion Arena either didn't or aren't going to see their 25th birthdays before they're torn down.
And I forgot about the new all-time champ, the Miami Arena. Built in the "economically depressed" area of the city just 10 years ago, both the Heat and Florida Panthers have bailed out for more luxurious/safer surroundings.
What Poulson did was not a great deal good either, he just barely got voter approval and thru out hundreds of people from their homes, because they were too poor to fight him
Moses did everything in his power to keep O'Malley from purchasing that property. He wanted the Dodgers to move to Queens, near the old World's Fair property, which would add prestige to Moses' highways that ran close to the property. When O'Malley couldn't get the city to cooperate with him to help him get that property, which the LIRR was considering selling, and which Moses was in Mayor Wagner's ear to thwart the Dodger owner, O'Malley decided to clear out of town. Moses is directly responsible for the Dodgers not being in Brooklyn and there should be no revisionist history on this matter and I won't let there be any.
With moses track record on highways you would think he was working for the motor and highway industry interest. He was totally anti mass transit and railroad.
Robert Moses was a miserable little man who was no freind of New York City or Mass Transit in general.
Peace,
Andee
So he built all these parks, highways, playgrounds and bridges across the city, and he was bad? That's a nice, smart thing to say.
Well, talk to all the people whose homes were knocked down & their neighborhoods destroyed. The South Bronx? Created by Moses' Cross-Bronx Expressway. Living in Bay Ridge, I've got the approach to the Verrazano Bridge cutting right through the neighborhood. My father told me of friends whose homes were bought by the city (for less than market value) and destroyed.
Moses was a bully who was know to wield more power than the governor, and had many politicians in his pocket.
Still, Jones beach IS nice....
[Well, talk to all the people whose homes were knocked down & their neighborhoods destroyed. The South Bronx? Created by Moses' Cross-Bronx Expressway.]
Most of us have heard the story of how the Cross-Bronx Expressway eviscerated stable neighborhoods and caused them to decline into unspeakable ghettos. Yet we tend to forget that repetition doesn't make a false story true. In fact, the Expressway did relatively if any damage to the neighborhoods through which it passes. Building it largely in a narrow trench didn't do much for esthetics, but it minimized the amount of property that had to be condemned. The right of way bisected rather than followed streets, so there weren't long rows of houses demolished. It looks as if each bisected street lost only a handful of properties. In addition, enough overpasses were built to keep the areas on either side from being isolated from each other.
It is true that many of the neighborhoods along the Expressway declined in the years following its construction. In many if not most cases, however, the decline was already in progress before construction even started, having been fueled by the mass postwar migration to the suburbs. One of the Moses critiques (Caro's?) cites the example of the East Tremont neighborhood, which indeed was considerably more affluent shortly before the Expressway than it was shortly afterward. But further, I daresay less biased, research has shown that East Tremont was long past its peak even before the work began. Its relative affluence was attributable to a largely elderly Jewish population that already had started to die off or migrate to Florida and elsewhere. Poorer residents had started to take their place. In short, simple demographic change almost certainly would have left East Tremont a much worse place, Expressway or not.
And one final observation - New York has no shortage of neighborhoods that aren't bisected by highways yet are poor. Consider Bedford-Stuyvesant, East New York, much of the South Bronx, and so on.
Not true!!! Moses deliberately rerouted the Cross-Bronx Expressway, adding two curves and over 1.5 extra miles, for the purpose of MAXIMIZING the number of people who would be displaced. (And THEY were never compensated!)
He even stated, on the record, that "the process of tenant removal is proving difficult, because they're being selfish and thinking only about their homes, instead of the big picture." Of course - he was Hell-bent making them homeless!!!
Besides, I don't buy the argument that any neighborhood past its prime deserves to be plowed under. Why should any one person get to play God with thousands of peoples' lives in such a manner?
No one is arguing that neighborhoods past their prime deserve to be plowed under. We are merely stating that Caro's assertion that the highways CAUSED decline is unproven. The Prospect Expressway probably caused any amount of harm in Windsor Terrace, but the neighborhood did not decline. Neither did Bay Ridge. These are the flip side of neighborhoods without highways such as East New York that did decline.
Opponents of transit lines, and new stores, are similarly guilty of false correlations.
Granted, a highway might not CAUSE a given neighborhood to decline. But strategic placement of a highway could certainly ACCELERATE its decline. THAT was Moses' clear motive, out of contempt for people who would never use his parkways, and thus did not deserve to live in NYC.
The Cross-Bronx Expressway is a vital link in I-95 and is an important route for entering and leaving the New York City area. If these people were in the way, then so be it. And if their properties costed less than those along a comparable route, I COMMEND the choice of routing.
Sorry, your argument doesn't fly. The Cross Bronx Expressway was not constructed as a vital link in I-95; it was, constructed as, well, the Cross Bronx Expressway. I could just imagine the planners of the Interstate system sitting in a conference room discussing the route of I-95 between Florida and Maine. "It's gotta go through the Bronx." "The Bronx? Can't it go through Westchester?" "No, the Bronx." "Oh, along the southeast edge of the Bronx?" "No, straight through the heart of the Bronx." "Why?" "Because THE CROSS-BRONX EXPRESSWAY IS A VITAL LINK IN I-95!"
After the fact, sure, there's a highway already there, so why not send I-95 along it? (Arguably what eventually became I-287 may have been a better choice.) But the Cross Bronx Expressway was surely not built as a route between Florida and Maine.
Additionally, the CBE was planned with such a lack of foresight that it was 10 years outdated the day it opened.
Peace,
Andee
The Cross Bronx Expressway was built as a trucking link between Long Island and the U.S. mainland that did not involve travel on local Bronx streets. It's the main way stuff gets into or out of Long Island.
And try to get from the Verrazanno Bridge to anyplace useful. You have to go up the antiquated Gowanus and Brooklyn Queens (Royal Island) Expressway to get to the LIE, one has already gone out of one's way. Now the same thing could have happened with the Bronx.
Is Brooklyn useful? I can get from the Verrazano to Brooklyn, well, right away, since that's where the bridge goes. If a collection of highways cut across the borough, then Brooklyn might have ended up a useless destination -- but as it stands, there are quite a few people for whom Brooklyn is home. (And, besides, what's wrong with the Belt?)
A roundabout route.
And what about trucks?
You appear to have missed my point.
The implication in your earlier post was that additional highways should be strung across Brooklyn so traffic can more easily reach "useful" destinations.
As it stands, traffic from Staten Island can easily reach Brooklyn, western Queens (via the Gowanus/BQE), and southern Queens and Long Island (via the Belt -- granted, that's not an option for trucks).
Are there other "useful" destinations? Sure: northeastern Queens and northern Long Island are the obvious ones. Could a few more highways be routed across Brooklyn to reach those destinations more efficiently? Of course. But that would have a detrimental effect on Brooklyn itself. (Or do you enjoy strolling underneath the Gowanus Expressway?) Is the tradeoff worthwhile?
According to the suburban model, indeed it is. The suburban model builds a circular highway around a central core, and all new development is along the circumference. (The core itself is essentially abandoned as it's overrun by highways.) When there's no room for new development, a new beltway is built around the old one and everybody moves away from the center (because the highways criss-crossing the old beltway have made the old suburbs unlivable).
There are a number of factors that may block such an approach. Perhaps the residents of an area prefer to not be forced to rely on the automobile for transportation. Perhaps geographical constraints make such a model of concentric circles impossible, or difficult at best. Perhaps there are historical, architectural, or nostalgic elements in the central core that area residents do not want to lose in a mess of highways.
I'm afraid that all three elements exist -- quite strongly -- in NYC. New Yorkers made it clear near the end of the Moses tenure that they were not interested in abandoning their city any further to make it easier to drive away from it.
Your're right. Robert SchMoses was a nasty SOB when it came to PR. He didn't give a s--t about the people who's homes were "condemned" so the Cross Bronx Expressway could be constructed.
As a matter of fact, I saw a PBS Special on Robert Moses some years ago and they even interviewed some of the people who were displaced back then and they recounted their sad stories for the documentary.
Even though he undoubtedly built more for this city and region than any other city planner/architect, nevetheless, he was far from being a compassionate human being, and because of that his personal failings carry more weight than does his immortalized monuments to Urban America.
Doug aka BMTman
Well sometimes it does take someone like that to get something done. Many people here are bitter because he hated transit and didn't plan for it. If he was for transit, then this board wouldn't be filled with as much Anti-Moses rhetoric. Everyone can't be appeased in building something. That's why nothing gets done anymore, somebody is needed to tell the NIMBYs to go **** themselves.
The fact remains that he didn't COMPENSATE those people who were bulldozed to build the CBE. That's the big issue. Not that he was Bull-headed. Donald Trump is Bull-headed and gets things done without being a bastard about it. It is Moses' temperment that is the issue here.
You don't knock-down someones abode without giving them something in return to aid them. I guess that's the American way since the Native Americans were treated much the same way?
Doug aka BMTman
If you own the house, you get paid market rate for it. If you rent an apartment, you're evicted.
There's another secetion about the elevated Gowanus Expressway
along 3rd Avenue in Sunset Park in which Caro brings forth a hypothesis that the elevated highway's route along 3rd Ave caused that thoroughfare to decline and at one point the author insuated that the whole neighborhood from 38th to 65th Street and from the waterfront to 6th or 7th Avenue was in an advanced state of decay by the early 70s.
I would personally say that Caro's assertion was about 45-50% right. Although the elevated Gowanus needlessly wiped out a business district from 65th Street on north and caused an obivous decline in the surrounding area, the author also failed to recognize other factors that were doing harm to the nieghborhood by the late 1960s.
Sunset Park had historically been dependent on the waterfront
and factory districts west of 2nd Avenue. During the 1960s and 1970s, containerization had moved almost all of the dockwork and maritme jobs
over to New Jeresy although the PA had opened the NE Marine Terminal at 39th Street. The manufacturing and warehousing businesses which were located in Bush Terminal and the side streets from 39th to 58th street had begun moving out starting in the late 50s and would continue to do so, mirroring an overall decline in NY City's manufacturing sector. Finally, the closure of the Brooklyn Army Terminal in the late 60s and the shutdown of the 65th Street rail yards and rollback of carfloating operations by Penn Central in 1969-70 had sapped the area's vitality
Then there were other factors that would go hand-in-hand with the
downward spiral of the waterfont as well. During the 1970s the increasing crime rate, the drug epidemic, the arson crazes, and property abandonment all were hitting Sunset Park very hard as well.
Of course, the City of New York looked the other way as it was the style back then. The neighborhood is still in the process of recovering thanks to local organizations and neighborhood groups that had to pick up the pieces when the City government collapsed. It is my understanding that the neighborhood now has one of the highest commercial and residential occupancy rates in southern Brooklyn. West of 3rd Avenue, there are a lot of small and mid-size warehousing and wholsale businesses which have moved into the old factory spaces making that part of town busier than ever.
I think Caro can be forgiven for his assertions about the Gowanus
Expressway since he wote his book in the late 1960s and early 1970s
when memories and wounds over RM's antics around town were still fresh and bitter in the public mind. Don't forget that the main star of the book was still alive, but out of it and his critcs and enemies
were still savoring over RM's demise several years earlier.
Now that were in the year 2000, perhaps it's about time that historains start to re-appraise such "politically-correct" urban legends in re: to Robert Moses and his work as in the case of East Tremont and Sunset Park. As the old story goes: one highway does not a slum make, not even the green behemoth above 3rd Avenue in Brookyn or a concrete trench through the Bronx.
[Now that were in the year 2000, perhaps it's about time that historains start to re-appraise such "politically-correct" urban legends in re: to Robert Moses and his work as in the case of East
Tremont and Sunset Park. As the old story goes: one highway does not a slum make, not even the green behemoth above 3rd Avenue in Brookyn or a concrete trench through the Bronx.]
Ah, so I've found another like-minded soul :-)
Neighborhood deterioration is a complex phenomenon. Many, often interrelated factors go into it, and it may not be possible to identify which ones were the most important. People don't like this sort of fuzziness. It's common human nature to want to reduce complicated situations and events to a few simple causes. In addition, neighborhood deterioration frequently involves issues of racial change, which most people prefer to avoid. As a result, there's a tendency to jump to simplistic explanations - hence the canard about how the Cross Bronx destroyed East Tremont and other areas.
Interesting that you make some observations regarding the recent revival of Sunset Park. I was on the Subtalk field trip last August that explored the waterfront area from 38th Street down to the Brooklyn Army Terminal. While there are many Ghosts of Industries Past, the area was by no means dead. In fact, I was quite surprised at just how busy it was for a Saturday afternoon. Many small to mid-sized industrial and commercial businesses were occupying the old factories and warehouses lining the streets. There were relatively few completely vacant buildings, although it was hard to tell how fully occupied the massive Bush Terminal buildings were. The Army Terminal seemed quite busy, and it's been noted elsewhere that the nearby 65th Street rail yards are back in business.
There's another secetion about the elevated Gowanus Expressway
along 3rd Avenue in Sunset Park in which Caro brings forth a hypothesis that the elevated highway's route along 3rd Ave caused that thoroughfare to decline and at one point the author insuated that the whole neighborhood from 38th to 65th Street and from the waterfront to 6th or 7th Avenue was in an advanced state of decay by the early 70s.
I would personally say that Caro's assertion was about 45-50% right. Although the elevated Gowanus needlessly wiped out a business district from 65th Street on north and caused an obivous decline in the surrounding area, the author also failed to recognize other factors that were doing harm to the nieghborhood by the late 1960s.
Sunset Park had historically been dependent on the waterfront
and factory districts west of 2nd Avenue. During the 1960s and 1970s, containerization had moved almost all of the dockwork and maritme jobs
over to New Jeresy although the PA had opened the NE Marine Terminal at 39th Street. The manufacturing and warehousing businesses which were located in Bush Terminal and the side streets from 39th to 58th street had begun moving out starting in the late 50s and would continue to do so, mirroring an overall decline in NY City's manufacturing sector. Finally, the closure of the Brooklyn Army Terminal in the late 60s and the shutdown of the 65th Street rail yards and rollback of carfloating operations by Penn Central in 1969-70 had sapped the area's vitality.
Then there were other factors that would go hand-in-hand with the
downward spiral of the waterfont as well. During the 1970s the increasing crime rate, the drug epidemic, the arson crazes, and property abandonment all were hitting Sunset Park very hard as well.
Of course, the City of New York looked the other way as it was the style back then. The neighborhood is still in the process of recovering thanks to local organizations and neighborhood groups that had to pick up the pieces when the City government collapsed. It is my understanding that the neighborhood now has one of the highest commercial and residential occupancy rates in southern Brooklyn. West of 3rd Avenue, there are a lot of small and mid-size warehousing and wholsale businesses which have moved into the old factory spaces making that part of town busier than ever.
I think Caro can be forgiven for his assertions about the Gowanus
Expressway since he wote his book in the late 1960s and early 1970s
when memories and wounds over RM's antics around town were still fresh and bitter in the public mind. Don't forget that the main star of the book was still alive, but out of it and his critcs and enemies
were still savoring over RM's demise several years earlier.
Now that were in the year 2000, perhaps it's about time that historains start to re-appraise such "politically-correct" urban legends in re: to Robert Moses and his work as in the case of East Tremont and Sunset Park. As the old story goes: one highway does not a slum make, not even the green behemoth above 3rd Avenue in Brookyn or a concrete trench through the Bronx.
For one thing, the many new homes and development on Staten Island, far outweighs the loss of those houses in Bay Ridge. If nobody's house was ever destroyed, then nothing would ever get built. The CBE is covered in the other thread branch.
With moses track record on highways you would think he was working for the motor and highway industry interest. He was totally anti mass transit and railroad.
With moses track record on highways you would think he was working for the motor and highway industry interest. He was totally anti mass transit and railroad.
I have to disagree everytime I drive on one of Moses' parkways. I enjoy the greenery and am glad that there are no trucks or buses. I have to thank Moses for that. Unfortunately now there are too many SRV's, pickups, and school buses which hurt the parkways. Robert Moses is probably turning over in his grave!
/*I have to disagree everytime I drive on one of Moses' parkways. I enjoy the greenery and am glad that there are no trucks or buses.*/
I like the parkways, save for one thing: getting on and off. Too many people feel the need to stop at the bottom of the ramps.
Kills the flow of traffic and is dangerous too. This isn't hard, folks. Just floor it as you come down the ramp and don't hit anything :)
Trucks and busses on the parkways are always fun to watch as long as you're not close to them.
Trucks (on the LIE)? I don't mind them. 9 out of 10 times, they know how to manage themselfs, it's the %^$%^$% $%^$%^%$^$% $%^#$%^%$% $%#^$%$%^&^ $#%#$% SUV's and BMWs which I think need to be banned from roads.
{rant mode on}
In my perfect world, among other things, you'd need a sepperate license to drive an SUV, *and* you'd need to retake your road test every 2 years, AND cellphones would be illegal. Period.
{rant mode off}
/* I have to
thank Moses for that. Unfortunately now there are too many SRV's, pickups, and school buses which hurt the parkways. Robert Moses is
probably turning over in his grave!
*/
Nah, this is the auto utopia he wanted. I often wonder if he was a plant by GM or something.
Looking at the responses to this topic it seems that there are pros and cons to moses. I guess the bottom line is that he was a man of vision, but his vision didnt include mass transit in his era.
When Moses built his first parkways, he never had the idea that such a mass of people would actually go out to the end of them and live there. They were supposed to be for the middle and upper class people in New York City to get in their motorcars and take nice Sunday drives out to his parkland and beaches on Long Island, or leisurely cruise up the Taconic Parkway on the east side of the Hudson. Some of the curves, dips, swoops and sharp entrances and exits have bee modified, but you can still see his pre-1940 roads were not built with his speed travel in mind. Just try cruising the Bronx River Parkway at 55 mph.
With the creation of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, and the later influx of federal bucks into highway transit, Moses adjusted his thinking and started plowing roads along the straightest lines through more urban areas -- good for drivers, rotten for neighborhoods.
I divide Moses' work into the period before and after he ran for governor in 1934. The early work on rebuilding the New York City infastructure was good -- he new how to write grant applications for federal funds before anyone else did, and that helped benefit New Yorkers with a remodled Central Park and needed highway crossings like the Triborough. Once he was routed by Lehman for governor, though, he seemed to decide that he would gather as much power as possible from his unelected office, and that's when the "My way or the highway" attitude (and it was his highway, too) really came into play.
[I have to disagree everytime I drive on one of Moses' parkways. I enjoy the greenery and am glad that there are no trucks or buses.]
Don't dipute that or Jones Beach or Triboro Bridges ... my point was that his vision was near sighted, in that he didn't realize how all these nice roads (LIE, Southern State, etc.) would strangle NYC without some additional mass transit.
P.S. maybe he knew but didn't give a damm, if so I hope he's in a hot place right now.
Mr t__:^)
I have to disagree everytime I drive on one of
Moses' parkways. I enjoy the greenery and am glad
that there are no trucks or buses. I have to thank
Moses for that. Unfortunately now there are too
many SRV's, pickups, and school buses which hurt the
parkways. Robert Moses is probably turning over in
his grave!
Mentioning the name "Robet Moses" could start an argument in an empty room. No one is all good or bad, but in my opinion, Moses' visions were largely flawed, particularly his anti-transit bias.
One aspect of his parkways that is detrimental to transit expansion is the designated parkland in the medians and shoulder areas. If some authority or interest wanted to put a transit line in a parkway right-of-way, in many cases the parkland would have to be de-mapped or mitigated, costly and time consuming legal endeavors. Ingenious legislation, if you favor things as they are!
Perhaps one of Moses' "dirty tricks" that doesn't get discussed as often as the (many) others......
Allow me to speak out in defense of the late Mr. Moses. It seems to me that much of the criticism leveled against him for his allegedly anti-transit orientation fails to take into account the _milieu_ in which he operated. In the 1930's, which was when Moses's power was at its greatest and most of his major projects came into being, mass transit reigned triumphant. While motor vehicles were no longer a novelty, they were far from common - I wouldn't be surprised if well under half of all households had them. Transit's position was so strong that neither Moses nor anyone else saw any particular reason to spend time or money on transit improvements. Doing so would have been like someone today offering rebates on Ford Expeditions.
Today, of course, we all see that Moses was too auto-oriented and should not have neglected transit the way he did. But whatever his strengths may have been, he didn't have the ability to see into the future.
Anti-Moses folks have a lot to answer for. All the obstacles they erected have stymied not only new roads but also new transit lines.
Environmental lawsuits would tie up the 2nd Avenue line for decades. You'd just have to stall in court until a recession rolled around (five years, tops), and then the money would be gone. When the economy got good again, you'd argue that the proposal was new (it would probably be different in some detail) and require a new EIS. Then you'd file another lawsuit and start stalling all over again.
Moses should have built more rail instead of roads? Fair enough. But what has been built since? I think the anti-Moses crowd should be held accountable.
Mr Rosa:
Kudos - you are absolutely correct. However, Mr. Moses' fault (IMHO) lay more in his narrowness of vision than in the execution of his programs.
As you allude to, the decline of transit and rise of urban blight was more a failing of the public sector in general than Moses in particular. Moreover, Moses could not have foreseen events like WWII and the impact of the GI Bill on decentralization.
But he nonetheless was a ringleader.....I think there was a fundamental misunderstanding (in Moses' time) of what makes cities work. Of course, future generations will say the same thing about us! And Moses continued to build highways well into the 60s, long after it became evident that the auto had severe disadvantages in an urban setting.
Larry also has a point - the Anti-Moses reactionism is almost as bad as the arrogance of Moses himself.
Would Moses have gone away if forced to eat humble pie on occasion? Or would he have built more sensibly if reined in? God only knows, and he is not telling.
He at least did a good job when he parted the Red Sea.
02/09/2000
One thing Robert Moses did that was unusual was when he built the 2 lane Bethpage Parkway, the original LIRR "B" tower stood in the way. He built a replacement tower which still stands today. Although sometimes graffittied, "B" tower is no longer a manned tower and can be seen on the Ronkonkoma branch trains between Bethpage and Farmingdale stations on the right after you pass the parkway overpass. "B" tower is rather nice looking building that doesn't resemble conventional looking towers.
Bill Newkirk
He at least did a good job when he parted the Red Sea.
I don't know. He tried to ban free Shakespeare from Central Park by using a RED smear campaign against Joseph Papp. It didn't work.
He wouldn't have parted the Red Sea -- he would have floated a bond issue to build a bridge over it.
Not only did Moses' 12 bridges NOT include provisions for mass (rail) transit, they were specifically designed to PRECLUDE any use by trains.
Except on the Verrazanno, such a connection wouldn't be useful.
Since sooner of later we are going to wind up without the Manhattan Bridge for some period of time, perhaps indefinately, it is worth thinking about service without it. As it is, zero service is planned for several months.
I think the overall thrust of the non-plan would be to get as many people to take buses to the Culver as possible, and hope that horrible crowding would convince people to either shift to off peak travel, move, or quit their jobs.
Here are my suggestions:
Sea Beach: eliminated, stations closed. No sense spending money on non-service. The money could be used on improved service in other boroughs, or perhaps for tax credits to help needy upstate New York.
West End: to Pacific Street, eight trains per hour only.
R and Q: Via Montigue tunnel, 12 to 15 trains each, depending on home many they can squeeze through.
Brighton Local -- frequent service to Franklin Avenue, if possible. How fast can they build that extra track? Some folks might take it in reverse and board the Culver, losing just 10 to 15 minutes.
Fulton St -- go with the E instead of the C, to take the load off the Franklin Ave shuttle. Ramp it up to as many trains as you can squeeze through. Tell people in Flatbush to take a bus to the Fulton Street line.
Culver:
G local extended to Church. Maybe some folks can take it up and jam on the L, or the Queens Blvd line.
V 6th Avenue local via 63rd St tunnel, Culver express to Kings Highway, rush hours only.
F Culver local from Stillwell. At rush hour, shove through as many trains as possible.
The hellish delays are likely to be less bad from Borough Park and Gravesend, because you don't have to cross any major streets to get to the F. On the Brigton side, someone taking a bus over to the F would have to cross Ocean Parkway and Coney Island Avenue, and perhaps Ocean and Flatbush as well -- it would take forever.
The 2/5 from Flatbush/Nostrand could also take some of the load, as could the new connection at Botanic Garden to the Franklin Ave. 2/3/4/5 station.
subfan
(The 2/5 could take some of the load)
My personal experience is the IRT is very crowded, and it would be hard to add more trains at rush hour. The Fulton St line and the Culver could add trains, although Brooklynites would require 2 or 3 train changes (and a bus too in some cases) to get to work.
The Nostrand Ave IRT is already bursting at the seams with passangers who take busses from East Flatbush and the Flatlands. With the way the line is set up, with 2 side platforms and no storage facility at Flatbush, this line cannot add service, and it couldn't absorb any new passangers should it have to.
Perhaps it can't absorb the additional passengers, but I can guarantee you that a large number of Brighton line riders would try to use the Nostrand line anyway.
subfan
And the ensuing gridlock would grind IRT service to ahalton the very first day.
If I lived in southern Brooklyn and rode any line that went through the Dekalb Ave complex and the Manny B collapsed or was condemned, I'd simply move to Staten Island, because even living there, it would be an easier commute to Manhattan.
I think the frustration over the LONG rebuild project has lead some of us to over dramatize the bad condition the bridge is in.
[If I lived in southern Brooklyn and rode any line that went through the Dekalb Ave complex and the Manny B collapsed or was condemned, I'd simply move to Staten Island, because even living there, it would be an easier commute to Manhattan.]
That might work if you were a renter. If you owned your house in Brooklyn, you might well find yourself stuck because the cutbacks in subway service would cause property values to plummet. If things were bad enough, you might even end as a "negative equity" homeowner. And that definitely is not an enviable position.
One of the regular platform attendents told me that southbound local service on the Fulton St./8th Ave. Line was suspended due to a possible suicide at Lafayette Street.
Does anyone have info that could confine this?
I was riding a northbound E at approx. 8:30 am out of B'way/ENY and saw an out-of-service E sitting at Lafayette St. with a work crew on the platform.
Doug aka BMTman
Could this have anything to do with the fire at Lafayette Ave. this morning?
it is true. There was also another one at Broadway-Lafayette in Manhattan. I saw an F running on the G!
This might be a bit confusing as the incident I'm talking about was Lafayette Street in Brooklyn.
It would be a bizarre twist if both Lafayette Streets had jumpers on the same day!
Doug aka BMTman
it was **both*** I do not know if Broadway-Laffayette was a jumper, but the person was walking in the tunnel- southbound. When I saw the F on the G (no G.O. for that!) I whipped out my portable scanner and found out about the Manhattan Incident. I knew nothing of Brooklyn until I arrived at Hoyt in Brookyln. I found out fo that incident because the tower was announcing the service disruption over the PA as a "police investigation at Lafayette Ave due to a customer injury"
B"H
I saw an F on the 8th Ave line this morning as well. But I didn't think much of it as I had seen one last week also. I suppose they're running a few F's to make up for the lack of C service on the 8th ave line.
What is the MAS of trains on the following lines?
LIRR Main Line
LIRR Babylon Line
MNCRR New Haven Line
MNCRR Harlem line
MNCRR Hudson Line
I recall seeing a train on the Harlem line during the 9th Ave tour.
It wasn't going that fast.
To the best of my knowledge, MAS on the LIRR in electric territory is 80 MPH or less. The same applies to the new diesel fleet. In non electrified territory, the MAS is 60 MPH. This is different from the old diesel equipment which had an MAS of 60 MPH in electrified territory.
Actually, according to LIRR Employee Timetables that I have, MAS for diesels even in electrified territory was 65 miles an hour.
Of course, when I lived on Long Island, before the FRA was created, LIRR diesel engineers seemed pretty good at making up lost time, an the 65 m.p.h. limit was ignored. Those were the fun days.
I saw sevel light in a MNCRR arrow control cab.
They were orange and yellow.
They were lable "Passenger Sanding", "Cab Sanding", "Door Sanding"
It was either Sanding or Standing, I wasn't sure.
Anyone know they stand for?
if the plan to build the 2nd ave. subway goes through, would be an IRT or a IND? if it is an irt then would they call the #8 line or the #10? if it's an IND, then would they bring back the letter H or K and use it for that? would they take the 9 of the 1 and give it its own line? I wonder what will happen when it is opened to the public.
The plan is to have it merge into the Broadway BMT line at 63rd & Lex. It obviously would not be built to IRT specs. Assuming the Manny B is fully operational or a new East River tunnel is built, assuming either of that happens or the Second Ave line is ever built for that matter, they could reestablish express service on the Broadway Line and bring back the B. The B could be the Broadway express like it used to be and end at 125th and 2nd instead of 57th and 7th.
The Q will continue to run on 6th Ave and through the 63rd St. tunnel into Queens. The Q should be made into a 24-7 service. The C train will go back to Bedford Park Blvd in the Bronx.
All this of course is just a pipe dream becuase there is no guarantee any of this will be done in our lifetimes.
this is what i predict will happen within the next year or two:
1-63rd street tunnel completed.
2-"Q" service extended to 71st-Forest Hills. Runs express.
3-"V" introduced as weekend service
they could reestablish express service on the Broadway Line and bring back the B. The B could be the Broadway express like it used to be and end at 125th and 2nd instead of 57th and 7th.
I like that idea!!! -- but at least call it the T if it returns to B'way.
www.bmt-lines.com
How about the P as in Phantom train, or FT as in fairy tale train,
or MB as in Make Believe train. If you believe they'll build a full
length subway in under 30 years consider this, FTA policy is to only
build lines 1 segment at a time. That's a nationwide policy put into
place after the fed's got burned on this infamous project back in the
70's, ang given this city and state's record on funding anything new
to completion in ain't gonna happen.
Take heart however, they say by the end of this century global
warming will make anything below city hall part of the harbor. So
you don't need a full subway after all.
02/09/2000
I don't know what they'll call it but I called it the 2nd Ave. Dreamway! New York has been dreaming about it for some 60 odd years and just like a dream, you wake up to reality!
I saw an old artists conception of a Second Ave. subway with R-46 type looking cars in a station signed of "Y", seriously. "Y" is perfect, WHY HASN'T IT BEEN BUILT !!
Bill Newkirk
It will be a BMT/IND line and it will be called the R train.It will be moved from the Queens Blvd line and replaced by the revived T train. The R will be the new BWAY EXP operating from 125st[86st when the first section opens]to 95st Bklyn. The T will operate from 179th st or 71-ave Queens to Coney Island via the west end,along with the N,Q and rush hour only W LINES
./..-+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++../
What would they call it? A miracle!!
IF AND ONLY IF they build the 2nd Avenue Subway below 63rd Street:
A) it will be a lettered line
B) it will probably carry the letter "Y"
C) my guess is that it will have a light blue bullet (same color as the former "E" color)
Wayne
What would they call it?
The Impossible Dream.
Could somebody help us HTML-challenged people on how to make a link? It would help everyone out if someone wants to post a web site address.
Well first you go to Home Depot, then you go to the aisle where the Chains are then you someone to cut a link for offa those Chains...that is how you make a link...or you go like this
Description og link<
Well first you go to Home Depot, then you go to the aisle where the Chains are then you someone to cut a link for offa those Chains...that is how you make a link...or you go like this
< A HREF = "URL " Description og link<
They should all be spaced together...
Like this:
<a href="http://www.NthWard.com">The Nth Ward</a>
Substitute "http://www.NthWard.com" for your the URL you wish to post (leave the quotation marks in), and substitute "The Nth Ward" for the text you wish to appear.
-- David
Chicago, IL
New York City Subway Resources
The above was a practice test for me.
Cool. Let's see if it works
My cousin recently took the the train operators exam, but he wants to make sure about something:
-What are the positions of the brake valve handle and reverser key from left to right, and what do they do?
(If you need specfic cars, then on the R68,R62 and the "redbirds")
Thanks,
JOHNNIE O.
The media is reporting that the Transit Pact was approved by a 2 to 1 margin.
Cool Larry. Thanks for the update. Is that by the TWU or the MTA
Joe
With less than 1/2 of the membership voting. Can you spell apathy.
Peace,
Andee
(Only half voting)
That IS amazing.
It has been that way for years.
Sad, very sad indeed. Mike Quill must be spinning in his grave.
Peace,
Andee
Hey, at least its better than DC37. They just make up the votes.
So what operational changes are we (outsiders without technical knowledge) likely to see as a result of this contract. Besides a fare increase. Any changes in duties of staff visible to the public? OPTO?
I was at the transit museum when I boarded an R17 (see it here) and found out that a jeans company, (I can’t remember the name it started with an L) was filming a commercial. They needed some extras and there was not that many people there, so my friend and me were told to sit and look like we had somewhere to go. The commercial was about this girl and this guy who were doing back-flips off of strap hangers, Jumping over the seats, which people still in them, and skidding down the floor.
They had to simulate the train moving so they filmed facing the wall with black over the windows. They also had to simulate the train coming to a stop, which was nice to see the doors, of a car that no-one had seen for a while, close.
Any way if you do see this commercial I’m the one in the back wearing a red jacket.
02/08/2000
The photo you displayed is the R-17's big brother, the R-16!!
The R-16 is wider with cross seating and the R-17 is narrower with bench style seating. They both share the porthole on the stormdoor feature.
Bill Newkirk
Ah, yes, my old friend #6387. I hope they treated her kindly during the filming; she's rather elderly (well, for a subway car) - matter of fact, she's the same age as I am - 45. I see her ceiling is still peeling - a nice touch for the old girl.
Wayne
On Tuesday they had given her a new interior paint job and made the floor spotless, and I remember a museum worker going around and cleaning off each and every screw because the paint crew had painted over them as well.
(P.S. Parts of the outside of the car had rust hole and were pealing right off)
Yes, they should mend her rust hole, that's for sure. But it won't get too much worse, thankfully - she's out of the elements, safe in the underground Museum. Ideally they should seek out a retired Redbird to use it for a body patch, as they are both made of LAHT steel. The hole is probably too big to Bondo by now. They shouldn't let it get any worse.
Wayne
How did that hole come about? I mean it's in a square pattern, which makes it look like it was holding something up.
They may have cut out a generalized area of rust, and the fact that it's in a square pattern tells me that they may be readying it for a patch. Stef, do you have any additional info on this one?
Wayne
Yes, there is a big rust spot on the exterior of 6387. Now, if they could find some original roller curtains for it...
Check eBay - there seem to be at least two or three more sets of curtains offered each day, from a wide variety of models - also lots of station signs, and even some ceramic ornamentation that supposedly once adorned the original 33rd street H&M terminal has been offered.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You met me at ERA HQ Yesterday, we forgot to trade Email Addresses...
You asked me what Chinese Sub Ethnic Group I belonged to Here is a URL. We people have our own Webpage.
You met me at ERA HQ Yesterday, we forgot to trade Email Addresses...
You asked me what Chinese Sub Ethnic Group I belonged to Here is a URL. We people have our own Webpage.
The Hakka Chinese Homepage
http://www.asiawind.com/hakka
Early last Friday morning, after checking out of a miserable fleabag of a motel (the Howard Johnson in Cheverly, Maryland - one of the worst hotels I've stayed at in a long time, in desparate need of an overhaul, even the phone was hard-wired in so I couldn't get on the web from my laptop) I boarded an Orange Line train at New Carrollton for the start of my marathon ride. This was the third train to leave New Carrollton that morning, as best I could tell - the 6 AM revenue train that started service for the day and a non-revenue deadhead run, presumably picking passengers up down the line, had left before. I rode all the way to Vienna without much of a view since the train was packed, and besides it was dark outside. After we emerged from the tunnel in Virginia it became evident that a light, wet snow had started to fall. I reversed direction at Vienna and rode to Rosslyn, where I took time out for breakfast, and then boarded a Blue Line train to Franconia-Springfield. Unlike the Orange Line train, this one picked up some serious speed, especially after leaving Arlington Cemetary and on the stretch from King Street to Van Dorn Street. I reversed directions again at Franconia-Springfield and got a good look (again) at the yards as we passed. At King Street I got off and photographed both CSX and VRE trains passing the Masonic Memorial and Alexandria station, and then boarded a Yellow Line train for Huntington. The female T/O on this train had an attitude - she took time to open her door and tell me to sit down when I was standing in a near-empty car looking out the railfan window - so I was glad that another T/O took over for the return trip northbound (she was still in the cab, possibly as an instructor). I rode to L'Enfant (nice and fast north of National Airport) where I changed for a Green Line train to Anacostia and return; once back at L'Enfant I hopped a Blue Line train again, this time to Addison Road, and then returned westbound to Metro Center where I changed for a Red Line train to Shady Grove. This run also had some nice fast running. At Shady Grove, with the snow getting heavier, I was most unhappy to have to wait on the platform while they took this train out of service (it had been giving door problems the last three stations) and await another train. We had a nice fast run back to downtown, however, and I remained on all the way to the other end of the line at Glenmont. Then, since my daughter's arrival at Union Station was supposed to be imminent, I returned there to await her.
Fortunately, my daughter decided to humor me (but at a terrible price - I had to go with her to the National Gallery of Art - there were only two pictures of trains in the entire place; one represented rural Pennsylvania and the other was the el in Manhattan) and on Saturday morning we boarded at New Carrollton, rode to L'Enfant, and changed for the Green Line to Greenbelt. We returned to Ft. Totten and changed for the Red Line to Union Station; later that day we would ride Union Station - Judiciary Square (hey, we had the unlimited pass) and L'Enfant to New Carrollton. So in seven and a half hours of riding on Friday and another hour plus on Saturday I rode the entire system.
Observations: most of the cars were quite clean inside and, given the weather, not bad on the outside. There was a lot of effort being put into keeping ice off the platforms. The stations all seemed to be clean as well. The Rosslyn station has a nice touch - at the west end of the westbound platform there is a "Welcome to Virginia" sign only slightly smaller than the huge highway signs that Virginia has at the state borders. There were a lot of escalators out of service, however; some were obviously being worked on, others not. And the elevator at Rosslyn was quite creaky. The farecard system worked well. I think that I could easily have stayed on the system without getting an unlimited pass on Friday, exiting at Union Station and paying only the distance fare from Rosslyn where I had exited and entered earlier. When I exited at L'Enfant around 10 AM to purchase the unlimited pass the system calculated the fare from Rosslyn at the off-peak rate, even though I had ridden for nearly two peak hours and only a half hour off-peak at that point. And I was able to trade in the remaining balance on the fare card toward the price of the unlimited pass. I had a hard time remembering to take the fare card out at those stations where it came back out from the same slot into which it was inserted; the ones where it came out the top were much more user-friendly. I rode cars from all four groups; from my point of view, the Rohr cars were the nicest, since they had the longitudinal seat that was usually the best seat on the train, both from a comfort and a view standpoint. I didn't see the connection to the old Green Line Shortcut, unfortunately - guess I didn't look in the right place at the right time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Green Line shortcut is the center track on the Red Line just south of Fort Totten. It connects to the outbound Green track, but you'll probably have to look hard for it in the tunnel.
There's also a track connection from the Blue/Orange lines to the Red Line somewhere around Farragut Square (sorry, I don't have a WMATA map handy). You can see the track veering off to the right from a westbound Blue or Orange train.
What did you think of the Red Line stretch between Dupont Circle and Woodley Park-Zoo? Great speed, and the line follows the contours of Connecticut Avenue even though it's hundreds of feet below, and even under Rock Creek...hope you had a railfan window for that!
Yes, that was a fast ride - I was standing on a crowded train outbound so I could look out, unfortunately with two panes of somewhat tinted glass and my mediocre eyes I couldn't see much. But it was an impressive run! Coming back I had a seat and was feeling the effects of too many hours on my feet by that time so I just relaxed and enjoyed the run. Besides, part of what I enjoy about the subway is the opportunity to observe the people around me - listen in on people's private lives as a disinterested observer, get a perspective on how other people view the "little things" in life. So, when I'm too tired to stand, that's what I do. No great revelations anywhere on this trip - can't say that there ever are - but somehow it fills out my experience in a place.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sounds good to me. I've also found the female operators are unable to handle the trains as well and I've heard the operator mutter I should sit down on a train with only one other passenger on it. You were a week after my snow day railfan trip. I went from Friendship Heights out to Shady Grove and then bused back to Chevy Chase on the 22nd and got some pretty good pics. The green line shortcut has been discontinued. I have a pic of the train I was on heading into the connection.
She was a cowboy, that's for sure - like a bucking bronco. And to think that she was apparently an instructor. But I also had a female T/O from Rosslyn to Franconia-Springfield and back to King Street and man, did she know how to make that train boogie!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did you take the Red Line North of Union Station. There are great views of the Amtrak, and Commutter Rail yards and the WAMTA yards there too.
Yes, I covered the entire system. Glad you mentioned the view of Penn Station yard - it is very good. And it gives me an excuse to comment on the variety of equipment I saw there: VRE bi-level coaches side-by-side with RDC cars converted to straight locomotive-hauled coaches, also VRE; one MARC bi-level; Amtrak cars in all paint schemes; and two private cars, coupled together at the end of an Amtrak Superliner consist, not to mention a wide variety of motive power. I didn't get a good look at the private varnish, but I think that one may have been an ex-Wabash business car that I've seen around before. The other appeared to be some sort of car from the early stainless (non-corrougated) era; it had a tuscan(?) stripe across the letterboard but I couldn't make out the words. The window arrangement made me think it is a sleeper but I couldn't be sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Tuscan was most likely a old Pennsy Car.
Just two corrections. The station in Washington is called Union Station. The yard near Union Station is called Ivy City Yard.
Chaohwa
Yes, I know it's Union Station - just a slip of the keyboard. I never can remember the yard name, though - thanks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I just came home from downtown. I walked to the Washington/Wells station thinking there wouldn't be any trains 'around' the Loop. Half way to the station; however, I saw a northbound Midway train, then a southbound Ravenswood, and finally a northbound Evanston running over Wells.
The Loop is back in full operation, except NO trains are stopping at Quincy/Wells.
Trains seemed to be running in their usual fashion again.
-Jim K.
Chicago
Good news Jim. Thanks for the update CH 5 tonight just talked about the plane crash where the WGN radio morning guy was involved. He crashed on the roof of the hospital. Everyone inside was OK considering the circunstances but it is feared he did not make it.
Just confirmed Bob Collins is dead
Why is Quincy/Wells still closed if they obviously found out that the structure is still OK? Is it because they are still working under the station?
-Jacob
Because that entire block of Wells is still closed to all traffic, including pedestrians. Not much point in having trains stop there if people can't leave the station.
-- David
Chicago, IL
A co-worker told me this morning that yesterday, when he was coming down the exit stairway at the 'near' soutwest corner of Adams/Wells, the water was already a foot deep at 8:25 AM. Wonder how many $200 dollar pairs of shoes got soaked? Riders were literally forced to 'take the plunge' as they were already through the whirlybird exit at the platform level - and there was no turning back.
-Jim K.
Chicago
I can imagine one of those "only in Chicago" headlines already:
LOOP L FLOODED. CTA RECOMMENDS RIDERS TAKE THE SUBWAY
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
CTA restarts Loop service
-- David
Chicago, IL
Caption: "The water main break on Wells Street earlier today caused part of the street to cave-in -- leaving a hole in the road about six feet deep."
(Tribune photo by Jill Blackman)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Caption: "Two city workers remove debris blocking a sewer drain after a water main break at Quincy and Wells Streets."
(Tribune photo by Jill Blackman)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Caption: "A broken water main at Wells and Quincy Streets flooded Wells south to Jackson Street earlier today."
(Tribune photo by Jill Blackman)
-- David
Chicago, IL
"Trains seemed to be running in their usual fashion again."
I caught the 4:18 Express at Davis St. this afternoon and took it downtown to see the damage. Around 4:35-4:40, we ran up behind another waiting SB Purple Line train at Clark Junction, and stopped. That train proceeded after a few minutes, and we rolled up to take its place, waiting.
At the junction, just before the Ravenswood merge, there is a switch that allows southbound trains to shift from the outside to the inside track. We sat watching that switch shift back and forth as the tower operator persistently fought with it. (He related his struggles on the radio.) In the meantime, four SB Ravenswood trains and a couple of SB locals rolled past. Finally, the tower guy gave up, sent us on the express track for a few hundred feet, and then shifted us over.
Moments later (apparently), one of those red line trains had an unrelated mechanical failure. We (and a handful of leading and trailing Ravenswood locals) rolled very slowly to Fullerton, where we waited at the platform as the malfunctioning train shifted over two tracks to the spur south of Armitage. We started back up again, and as we lumbered past, I saw a half dozen workers working on the coupler between the second and third car (the train was split). We finally arrived at Sedgwick at 5:15, and rolled around the Loop without a problem.
Yep, the CTA is back to normal!
I walked by Quincy and Wells at lunchtime today (Thursday, 2/10). The streets and sidewalks are still closed, as is the Quincy L station. Trains passing by overhead without stopping.
-- Ed Sachs
According to the CTA Website, the Quincy/Wells station will re-open on Monday, Feb. 14.
CTA - What's New
-- Ed Sachs
I've been wanting to ask this question for a long time. The LIRR is the busiest and most important commuter rail service in the country, but before the new DM-30's the LIRR was hauling it's non electric train with absolute crap. I mean come on, GP-38's? MP-15's? This is the bussiest passenger railway in the country and they are using second rate freight locomotives? And then they couldn't even get these crummy locomotives equipped with HEP. Instead They dug up some 50's cab units out of the scrap heap and turn them into power packs. As far as I can tell no other commuter RR had to resort to using power packs. Now I know that it dosen't really matter what you have as long as you maintain professionalism, but again the LIRR came up completely lacking. It was like the LIRR had no respect for its self or its riders. Every LIRR paint scheme has been butt ugly. Its like they weren't even trying and the power packs, they just painted them rust. I mean why would the public want to ride anything that looks as if it were about to disintegrate. Then you had the LIRR diesel coaches which looked like they had been bought by the Penn Central for Metro North and then were handed down. I have never ridden in one, but they sure look uncomfortable (possibly like a SEPTA Silverliner) and that uniform coating of "dinge" dosen't help either. As I said at the start, the LIRR is the bussiest and probably most important Commuter RR in the country. It serves some of the wealthiest areas on the east coast, but all it recieved was crap equipment. If NJT has been able to consistantly get new equipment for the past 17 years then one would think the LIRR with twice the ridership would at least get real passenger locomotives with HEP (even the Central RR of NJ got its GP-7's and GP-40's with HEP and we know how much money they had). Can anyone who lives in the area and uses the LIRR please explain to me how this wonderful PRR subsidiary fell on such hard times?
The LIRR's diesel fleet for the most part -- particularly the FP-9s, GP-38's, and MP-15's -- are hand-me-downs from larger railroads.
I think the problem with the LIRR is that the railroad is basically a rush-hour commuter line. What I mean by that is they are almost solely dependant on a 9-5 in-bound & outbound workforce. On off-hours most Long Islanders are home, and on weekends most LIers get around by car and rarely come into the city. So there is little reason for the LIRR to go out of it's way to get top-of-the-line equipment for a busy passenger railroad, but with a static amount of ridership.
Doug aka BMTman
May I suggest you check your information??
The GP38-2's and MP15AC's are NOT hand-me-downs from larger railroads.
They were bought BRAND NEW by the LIRR in 1976-1977, as were the SW1001's.
The ONLY second-hand locomotives on the LIRR in recent years were the fleet of Alco FA's, the F-7/9 power packs, and three FL-9's.
In prior years, the ONLY locomotives LIRR got second hand were seven Alco S-2 switchers and a pair of RS-2's from Delaware & Hudson, plus the ex-Fairbanks Morse demo which became LIRR 1503. Every other unit was bought brand new by the LIRR. The rest of the H16-44's, the RS-1'2 and 3's, C-Liners, all the Alco S-1's and most of the S-2's, the Century 420's -- all were bought brand new.
Thank you for correcting me, although I didn't say ALL of them.
And even so, they LOOK like second-hand equipment because they have no incentive (don't care) to keep them looking sharp and new. They're not out to impress anybody because they rely on a predictable, static ridership (as I mentioned in my prior post).
Also, there is always the possibility that at some point in the future the LIRR will want go all electric on all of their lines.
Doug aka BMTman
Well nothing says passenger locomotive like GP-38, and the MP in MP-15 DOES stand for multi-purpose. I guess the LIRR took that label to heart. Sarcasam aside what could the LIRR have been thinking!? They need a new passenger locomotive so they buy low power freight engines with no HEP and the all out acceleration of a tug boat. If they had money to buy new "budget" locos, why not buy some used rebuilt Geep 40's that just might fit the role of a passenger locomotive.
There is something else to this story I am puzzled about. Even in the dark days of the 60's, New Jersey commuter RR's with the help of the state were able to buy all new equipment like GP-40P's, U-34CH's and Comet I cars. Over the past 30 years this equipment provides/provided sterling service and build NJT into something better. In the end it all comes down to the government. Few if any commuter RR's can affort new equipment. The state of New Jersey was nice enough to buy all new commuter trains for its wealthy suburbanites. However the State on NY seems to care little/nothing for its wealthy commuters on Long Island. Even if new equipment won't increase ridership it will make the ride faster/more comfortable and wealthy suburbanites usually demand/expect such perks/preferencial treatment.
Obviously, truly "wealthy suburbanites" would ride by limo to get to work anyway. The Long Islanders who use LIRR are not the WEALTHIEST suburbanites otherwise they would not ride with the "minoins". LIRR riders ARE middle- and upper-middle class, but if you did a poll of them I'm sure you would not find many who consider themselves "wealthy".
Also, if the ridership made a big stink about the condition of the motive-power equipment I think something might have been done. But the passengers don't ride in the locomotives, so why would they care what they looked like as long as the passenger equipment was in good shape?
Doug aka BMTman
I think in Washington DC, the commuter uses powerpacks or just shell engies as cab control.
And the "GP" in GP38 stands for General Purpose.
If you look back, the LIRR isn't the first, nor the only, commuter railroad to use GP-type locomotives for motive power.
NH, NYC, SP, Erie, DL&W, Rock Island, and most other commuter roads used GP-type locomotives for commuters. And most of the roads also used Alco RS-types. The Long Island was right there with them throughout the diesel era.
For some reason, the railroads all stuck with locos around 2000hp for their commuter needs (granted, the Alco RS's were generally 1500/1600, but LIRR had 2400hp C-Liners and SP/DLW/CNJ had 2400hp Train Masters so it averages out). In the mid-1970's when the LIRR ordered those GP38-2's, they were the "average" locomotive to do the job. It was only after the relative success of the EMD F40 at Amtrak that the commuter roads started going for the 3000hp locomotives for replacement power. And, as we see nowadays, LIRR has followed suit.
I'm not "up" on the situation with NJ Transit (and predecessors) with how they chose those GE U34CH's. I believe at the time, they were the ONLY commuter trains powered by GE locomotives. GE's tend to "load up" REALLY slow -- it was for this reason that Amtrak pulled their 500-series P32BWH's off the "San Diegan" run in California -- frequent stops, plus hills, did not go well with the Amtrak "Pepsi Cans". But they run great once you get 'em rolling, and as we've all seen, Amtrak now has a mainly-GE motive power fleet. (The "San Diegan" route has EMD F59PHI's.)
Of course, the best "hot rod" commuter locomotive I ever rode behind were the ten Southern Pacific SDP45's. Although they replaced the Train Masters, they were 50% more horsepower. On top of that, SP modified the field loop circuitry, so the train would start moving before the loco started making any appreciable noise. Talk about some "rocket ships"!!! It sure was fun riding the peninsula line behind an SDP45 (though they were so damn loud, you almost needed earmuffs if you were in the first car and it was one of the old non-air-conditioned "Harriman" cars with the open doors and windows.)
Manhattan Bridge Rehabilitaton West Side Approaches and Suspended Spans by Weidlinger Associates.
Long Span Suspension Bridge
Asymmetrical Train Loads
Historic Structure
Correction of Design Defects
Traffic Maintenance
Cracking and Corrosion Repair
Additional Long Span Bridge Projects:
San Francisco / Oakland Bay Bridge
Bronx Whitestone Bridge
Tappan Zee Bridge
Glenwood Canyon Bridges
George Washington Bridge
Vincent Thomas Bridge
-- David
Chicago, IL
I could've sworn I posted this a month ago.
My apologies. Normally I keep each and every posting on SubTalk memorized for a period of 90 days, but yours must have slipped through the cracks. Sorry about that.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Yes I've seen this link. Two points:
WAI has made a lot of money by telling the city the bridge could be fixed in a few years, for a lot less money. The bottom line is, it too a long time, and far more money than promised, and there is still no guarantee of success.
They continue to promise a 50 year life. From 1978. If we were to start now, we still couldn't replace the bridge by 2030.
We just have to hope the cracking ends when the bridge is finished. We will have spent so much money that if it doesn't work, Brooklyn will just have to live without subway service over the bricge.
02/08/2000
I was riding the #5 train towards the Bronx today and I noticed something out of the ordinary. 138th St on the #2 & #5 is an original IRT station, unrehabbed. I noticed on all the station sign tablets, they are covered with a white on black MTA type sign. What is underneath? Is it 138th St or something different?
I know about 149th & Grand Concourse (ex-Mott Haven).
Bill Newkirk
"Mott Haven" is under the white-on-black signs at 138th Street. 149th Street-Grand Concourse was "Mott Avenue."
David
And it still is!
The "MH" icons are still prominently displayed at 138th Street-Grand Concourse, and feature the same design as that found at 5th Avenue-59th Street BMT station. It needs restoration.
Wayne
The #2 does not stop at 138th Street. It stops at 135th/Lenox, then 149th/Grand Concourse.
Only the 4 & 5 stop on 138th Street
If Hilliary Clinton is to become a true New Yorker she must ride the subways in the rush hour like and with everyone else. She is not representing New York if she doesn't. Besides she will loss anyway and then divorce Slick Willy!!!!
It's reassuring to see that most of you New Yorkers are taking Hillary's run for Senate about as seriously as the rest of us west of the Hudson. :-)
Hell, I consider myself more of a New Yorker than Hillary, and I've never even lived there. But at least I've ridden the subways and busses a few times (even during rush hours), I've taken long walks around lower Manhattan at 3AM, and I've spent time in each of the other four boroughs as well.
Hmm... Maybe I should run for public office in NY. I promise I'll be to subways as to Robert Moses was to highways. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
>>>It's reassuring to see that most of you New Yorkers are taking Hillary's run for Senate about as seriously as the rest of us west of the Hudson. :-)
<<<
It's no joke. The Most Intelligent Woman Who Ever Lived enjoys a 75-25 margin over The Combover among loony NYC voters. This may be enough to actually land her a senate seat if she can persuade enough soccer matrons in Tonawanda, Watertown and Katonah to yank the Democratic lever. Be afraid...be very afraid.
www.forgotten-ny.com
What's really sad about the whole affair is that there was a perfectly good likely Democratic candidate, Representative Nita Lowey, who was more or less forced to step aside when Hillary decided to run. Had Rep. Lowey run, the Republicans most likely would have put forth a decent candidate and we'd really have a choice in November. Instead, the election will turn out to be a lesser-of-two-evils deal.
Welcome to celebrity politics. A Nita Lowey-Rick Lazio race would actually have been more about issues directly relating to New York than the personality-driven campaign New York is in for. But the "Captain Jack" screw-up was good for a two-day laugh.
Pete: It is NOT a lesser of two evils deal. It's about one with a great record of restoring a city back to the greatness in deserves; the other is a carpetbagger who has never accomplished anything except try to install a socialist medical system in which the federal government would dominate one-seventh of the US economy. She failed in that attempt.
Kevin: I'm afraid you may be right. There are a lot of New Yorkers who seen to have very little pride in themselves or their state that they would allow some cheap penny-ante carpetbagger to come in and get elected to a major office. They've done it twice before. My heart tells me Rudy will win, my head tells me New Yorkers might just be dumb enough to put that elitist in the Senate. That would never happen in my state. Three times carpetbaggers came in here to run for office, and threetimes we rode them out of town. And when they lost, they left town.
Her Highness did ride an N train on a visit last fall. I don't know if the taxpayers chipped in for her MetroCard.
www.forgotten-ny.com
When was the last documented instance of hizzoner's having ridden on a subway to get from point A to point B? Does he regulary take the Lex to commute between Gracie Mansion and City Hall? Has he ever taken it during rush hour. Perhaps, that is why he has stated that a 2nd Ave Subway is not required. He has also agreed with Pataki that money would be better allocated for improving upstate roads.
To my knowledge the last mayor to regulary use public transit to get to work as mayor was Judge Gaynor. He usually walked across the Brooklyn Bridge, rather than taking the El from his Eighth Ave Brooklyn home. Perhaps, that was the reason he abolished the toll (for everyone), initiated the Dual Contracts and encouraged the public to visit him personally at City Hall. He also had the good sense to fire Robert Moses.
She rode on my favorite train? She rode on the Sea Beach? Golly! I may have to force myself to say something nice about her. On second thought, maybe I'll hold that thought. Still the Sea Beach. Not bad.
I thought she rode the No. 6 local, and not the N. In that case, Fred, you're safe.
J: All I can say is WHEW!!!!!!!!! I don't want that lady riding on my train. Thanks for that very satisfying info.
I intend to vote for Al Gore-president and Republicans for senate etc.
Here`s why; Ameriac`s 8 yr economic expansion will likely end during the next president`s term if a Republican is elected he and his party will bear the brunt of the public`s anger.This will also be reflected in a backlash against Republicans in Congress and the Senate.After the house-cleaning that occured in `94 most of the remaining Democrats were in fact the most Liberal and will therefore have the most seniority,these somewhat activist liberals will have control of various commitee`s that actually gouvern and determine policy.
they would decide federal judgeships,taxes,and ofcourse spending.
If the 60`s and 70`s are any guide,this would be very bad for New York.
Please think carefully about your vote!
You make some sense, and you have a point. I can, however, never comprehend that fact that politicians have no use for the New York Subway system. Perhaps if we got them on line with us and they saw how enthusiastic we are from Maine to Hawaii, then maybe they would change their tune. I'll never be President but if I was I would pout money into the system to improve it and make it a real showplace. The subway is one of the things that makes New York what it is. I just don't think the politicos understand that.
Dear Fred: I share your enthusiaism for the system (inspite of the fact that i use it 6 or7 ays a week)However,in this land of the car subways and busses are poor stepchildren politically.
Politicans respond to two main things,organized pressure groups(for votes)and special interest busines lobbist`s(for money to get votes)
Since mass-transit seems inevitably to be considered a "special interest"-pork,it is very important that big cities such as NY have politicans in the House and Senate that are influential and mmembers of the majority party.this is where the "pork" is doled out.
RK
02/08/2000
I heard from a couple of sources that the R-142's (#6300 series) are being tested on the BMT Culver "el" middle. Anybody know of when they test them and between what hours?
Bill Newkirk
Sounds strange, the tripcocks would be on the wrong side. Rules require putting something like R33 in front of the train, and that is not compatiable with R142.
Then this is the TA, who follows rules....
Hi Guys,
I need some advice in getting around NY late at night after I get off the Maple Leaf from Toronto. Is the subway safe to use at this hour with luggage or is it safer to take a cab with luggage?
Thanks,
Anthony Leith
Sydney NSW Australia
Hi Guys,
I need some advice in getting around NY late at night after I get off the Maple Leaf from Toronto. Is the subway safe to use at this hour with luggage or is it safer to
take a cab with luggage?
Thanks,
Anthony Leith
Sydney NSW Australia
Get a receipt also and keep it from the cab
I'd take the cab too. But then, since it's Amtrak, don't be overly surprised if you end up in NY around 7 in the morning!!!!
If you are just going to a hotel, take a cab. You can start riding the subway the next day, with an unlimited ride pass.
Trains are infrequent in the middle of the night, and depending on the hotel location, you might have to wait twice. Most subway crime occurs while waiting in the station, not on a train.
I'd take the train in the middle of the night, but I avoid certain stations and areas, and changes of train.
CTA SECURITY ISN'T ON TRACK WITH RIDER SAFETY
by John Kass
-- David
Chicago, IL
Something about that article didn't quite add up. I now realize what it was.
Most of the article discussed an older woman who commuted from a southern suburb of Chicago to her job at O'Hare airport. Her husband drove her to the 95th Street station on the south side of Chicago and, to help ensure her safety in what I take isn't a particularly nice 'hood, waited with her on the platform until the train came. CTA staffers would let him do this without having to pay a fare. But then the policy changed, and the husband was told that he'd have to pay. Not wanting to wait alone on the platform, the wife now takes an express bus to work at the cost of $10 per day vs. $3 by train. The column pointed out how this extra cost was quite a burden on this couple.
My somewhat cynical question: Why didn't the husband simply pay a fare each morning so he could continue waiting with his wife? It would still be a lot cheaper than the express bus.
The point is, why is her husband waiting with her at all? 95th is extremely well used at all times of the day, and I just don't see the point.
-Jacob
The point is, why is her husband waiting with her at all? 95th is extremely well used at all times of the day, and I just don't see the point.
Tell that to the CTA employee who was raped at 95th a couple weeks ago, and to the guy who was shot to death on the platform at 95th a few months before that.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Which of these people had these crimes occur during the rush hour? How many people use the 95th Street station?
I'm not sure what time of day the crimes occurred. 95th is one of the busiest stations in the system, if not the busiest. In addition to being the southern terminal of the Red Line, it is also the terminal for many South Side bus routes. I was down there past midnight once, and I found it to be rather busy even at that time.
-- David
Chicago, IL
[My somewhat cynical question: Why didn't the husband simply pay a fare each morning so he could continue waiting with his wife? It would still be a lot cheaper than the express bus.]
Finally, someone with a reasonable question. Peter, I wondered the same thing myself.
Fact is, the past few weeks there has been quite a bit of anti-CTA publicity again.
My contention is two-fold. First, in 1995 the ATU308 had public sentiment with it, and could have challenged this whole elimination of conductors from the trains. Now that this is coming to final fruition, the last of the so-called CA's will be leaving the trains on March 25, 2000 - regardless of what Rhoda & Mary, Phyllis and whoever says on these pages, it seems the union is using 'safety' as an issue.
Secondly, the recent crimes happened off the train on the station platforms/stairways/right in a crew facility. So, my question is, how does keeping conductors on the line improve the safety of the riders. There is great criticism of the CTA today because they are spending more money on platform security, where the crimes are occurring, and giving the CA's (conductors) the boot.
Read this one as you want, but I see it as another publicity program aimed against CTA management. While the current management is not perfect, they are doing a better job than most of the past management teams since the 1960’s.
-Jim K.
Chicago
My question is how did a relatively populist article get printed in the 'World's Greatest Newspaper?'
My question is how did a relatively populist article get printed in the 'World's Greatest Newspaper?'
Simple, it was bashing a Democratic administration.
Kass doesn't think twice before bashing downstate Republicans either. Go back and read some of his previous columns. In fact, he endorsed a Democratic candidate for governor. He's one of the few journalists out there who doesn't confine his criticisms to the "other" party.
-- David
Chicago, IL
John Kass is a frustrated Mike Royko wantabe. His creditability was lost with me when he entered the silly foray with 'da mayor' over the supposed racial slur made by King Richard about the Italian Parade Queen.
Unfortunatly there seems to be nobody to replace Royko - maybe that is the way it should be.
However, one thing, McCormick would be very sad to see the kind of newspaper 'The Chicago Tribune' has become. I've canceled my subscription some time ago. I just couldn't take another Eric Zorn or Mary Schmich column.
-Jim K.
Chicago
Come one come all on my first annual subtalker field trip. We explore the few remaining traces of the Manhattan Beach line. I have gotten permission from two private property owners to let us explore a small piece of a remaining station used as a garage, and part of a signal tower at another private location. Let's meet saturday 2/12/00 at 11:00 am in front of 3025 Ocean Avenue. Please call 718-646-0844 (ask for me, of course) any night between 10:00pm and 1:00am to confirm, I'd just like to know how many people to bring hotdogs for, I'm getting the gas cooker cleaned right now. Camoflouge optional, bring flashlight helmet and broken cellphone, flatulence discouraged.
Is this for real...
or another one of your games! [G]
www.forgotten-ny.com
heypaul, I'll bring along some Mexican fast food since I always need to "gas up" before going on a long trip.
Doug aka BMTman
Sorry I land at JFK at 11:30, will miss it.
Is a tour of your R9 Cab included?
As Jack Benny use to say----Well.
I suffer from numerous psychiatric disorders, but up
until last night at 11:00, schizophrenia was not
one of them. It seems that I have finally split.
Unless someone put one of the Invasion of the Body
Snatchers seed pods under my bed recently.
My main neurotic personna was over a friend's house
last night at 11 PM, when someone posted an
invitation to tour the remnants of the Manhattan
Beach LIRR under my heypaul handle and with
my webtv e-mail address. heypaul 2, also gave my
address and phone number and suggested a meeting
time of 11AM on Saturday 2/12/00.
This has me rather disturbed, as I am not sure of
whether I have been cloned or are just tumbling
deeper into a psychiatric abyss. I just called a
good friend of mine, and told him the story of what
happened, and asked his opinion. He said to me "Do
I know you?" ( That was a Steven Wright joke )
Seriously, I did not post the idea of a trip this
Saturday. I don't know for sure who did. But I
must say that it was almost as funny as some of my
more extremely screwy posts.
And now Don Wilson has a few words to say about Jello.
Is it april 1st already?????
Is it april 1st already?????
AS LONG AS THE HOT DOGS ARE KOSHER IT WOULD BE WORTH THE TRIP ALL
THE WAY FROM CALIFORNIA !!! MAN!! !!!!!!!!!!! SURE WISH I STILL LIVED IN NEW YORK !!!!!!!!
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com MR WILLIE thank you heypaul!
Sunday dawned bright and clear, and I really didn't want to leave the comforts of my nice warm bed in the Courtyard Marriott in Landover, Maryland, just up the hill from the New Carrollton Metro/MARC/Amtrak station. But duty called - and my daughter, who was expecting me to have breakfast with her before she headed back to college, was getting hungry. So arise I did, and after breakfast I pointed the van north on I-95 to Baltimore.
After a brief tour of some of Baltimore's back streets (I don't care if the directions WERE right, I had one heck of a time following them!) I managed to swerve in the appropriate direction and ended up at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum shortly before opening time at noon. Dan Lawrence, who I had corresponded with previously, arrived within a couple of minutes and proceeded to give me a full tour of the car barn and museum building over the next five hours. I had the opportunity to view, up close, every rail vehicle in their collection, including the only surviving piece of Baltimore maintainence-of-way equipment, a crane car that came home to Baltimore from Branford as part of a multi-way swap. (The "only surviving piece" may be a bit of an exaggeration, though, as they do own a rubber-tired line truck and several of the passenger cars did later duty as MofW vehicles before retirement, and there is also a rumor, as yet unconfirmed, that a sweeper exists somewhere.) Four cars were in service that day - Peter Witt 6119, PCC 7407, Brownell 1050 (built 1898), and another one, convertible 264 I think, and I rode them all, beginning with the Witt and ending with my personal favorite, the PCC. The ride isn't very long - just up the road on private ROW to the 28th Street loop and back - but the scenery is great and the opportunity to ride the old cars is priceless. The visitor's center is built on the site of an old RR roundhouse from a local line (narrow gauge, I think) and just up the road is the former Maryland and Pennsylvania roundhouse, still in use by the DOT for storage of sand, salt, and other road stuff. Between the North Avenue loop (by the Visitor's Center) and the Ma & Pa roundhouse there is a brick(?) arch visible in the hillside to the east that I meant to ask Dan about but just never did - Dan is a veritable fountain of knowledge about Baltimore streetcars and offered up much good information, some of which I hope I have retained, but that's one question I simply forgot to ask. According to a map it's the Glen Edwards Avenue Tunnel, but what it was used for I don't know. The machine shop is just north of the North Avenue loop; we didn't go in, but much of the mechanical rebuilding work is done there.
I had planned to spend about two or two-and-a-half hours there; instead, I was there for nearly five, and enjoyed every minute of it. Dan, as well as other members of the museum, made me feel very welcome there and I look forward to the opportunity to return. I would encourage all of you to visit there if you have the chance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
MTH is announcing another new NYC Subway Set in their 2000 Vol.2 Rail King catalog. This will be an O gauge four car R-21 set. The catalog illustrates a deep red color with silver roofs. The four cars appear to be numbered 7090, 7092, 7110 and 7111. Pricing will be $200.00 for the set with Loco-Sound, and $300.00 with Proto-Sound 2.0. Proto-Sound 2.0 is a new sound system developed by MTH. Orders will have to be placed with your dealer by mid-March for delivery later in the year. This set should be more pleasing to the eye of the transit fan as to prototype length since it is a model of a 50 foot subway car, yet is about the same length as the previously issued R-42 sets, which were 60 foot cars.
any way this company has a website. if they do, let me know.
MTH's website is
www.mth-railking.com
I've seen a two car R-42 set on a friends kitchen table, they looked real fine and would expect the R-21s to be the same. The price was much more affordable on the former.
Mr t__:^)
I'll bet the two car set that you saw was the add-on set, and neither car was motorized. This four car set has one motorized car and a sound system, both of which jack up the price. If MTH is true to form, they will probably issue a two car add-on set for the R-21 next year, and it will be comparably priced to the set that you saw of the R-42's.
$71 million in taxpayer money for a minor league ballpark??? And this is for a Class A team, mainly a bunch of 19- and 20-year-olds, the average one of whom won't get as much as a cup of coffee unless he goes to Starbucks. I really think the city administration, from the Mayor on down, is comprised of Bellevue escapees. No other explanation is possible.
I can think of several other explanations - all having to do with greed, corruption, bribery, etc.
Did you read the fine print? If the minor league team loses money for three consecutive years, they can walk away.
Brooklyn doesn't even want this minor league team. Why are we spending so much for something not wanted by anyone?
[Brooklyn doesn't even want this minor league team. Why are we spending so much for something not wanted by anyone? ]
This isn't Brooklyn's team, this is Staten Island's team
Maybe George will move the Yankees There
I thought they were the Yankees.
They are the Staten Island Yankees, but I was talking about the Big Club
Hey Buddy Bob, did you hear. Your girl Hillary Clinton rode on MY train, the Sea Beach, not yours, the Brighton Beach. Eat your heart out buddy. Didn't she know that was a Republican train?
No subway train is a Republican train in New York. Most people will vote for that.
And I think with if she was to ride my train (assuming I had MY train), I would actually consider that an insult and would rather have her ride the C or G or something.
I always knew the secret service was night the brightest people, most likely took it because it was empty being a local, and people prefer the Brighton Express, also because it needs more repairs the the Brighton and they wanted to point that out to her., and we agreed no pol' tics
Excuses, Excuses. What a sorehead. In fact, I found out this morning that Hillary rode the 6th Avenue subway not the Sea Beach. That, I'm happy to say, was a good piece of news. I wonder what Rudy's favorite train is?
Probably the Brighton since he used to ride it as a kid
Probably the 6. It passes beneath City Hall whether he likes it or not. LOL
Well said Humans of East. But there must be a train you like. Make it yours. I didn't give myself my website name, Steve 8AVEXP gave to me when all I seemed to talk about was the Sea Beach, which, by the way, I had oodles of fond memories of when I was a kid in New York. I don't like Hillary, either, and I just found out it wasn't the Sea Beach she wrote but the 6th Avenue Subway. What a relief.
YOU GOT THAT STRAIGHT!
I believe it is an INSULT to have Brooklyn host a minor league team. Real boroughs of Queens and Bronx get major league teams, yet Brooklyn has to be on par with the bastard and have a minor league team. It's a waste of money. Minor league might work where the nearest major league team is hundreds of miles away on a series of rural routes, but when there are two only a few miles away, it makes NO SENSE.
Actually, I'll disagree with that. I'd much rather go watch a minor league team play than a major league team. The players are much more approachable and the ballparks much more intimate than the majors. For many years I went to see the Durham Bulls play at least once every couple of weeks. The old Durham Athletic Park where they played in those days, when they were a Carolina League (single A) farm team for the Braves, was the largest in the league - it seated 6000. Heck, the Kinston Indians, their arch rivals, played in a 2200 seat park! Now the Bulls are the triple A team for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays and play in a 14000 seat park that is basically a miniature Camden Yards, and the fun is gone.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Idiots: No other explanation is possible)
Campaign contributions?
Well, Howie Golden didn't want it.
His much better Coney Island Sportsplex idea was shot down by Hizzoner.
Doug aka BMTman
Are we talking about the one in Staten Island, with signed contracts between the team and the city, or the proposed one in Brooklyn?
The proposed one at the Parade Grounds.
Borough President Howard Golden shot it down, because it was only promised as a temporary site. That was Rudy's plan.
Golden's concept was the much larger, and year-round Coney Island Sportsplex, which would have benefited local High School sports teams as well as housing a minor league team. Rudy G. shot that one down because it wasn't his idea. Rudy is behind the one proposed for Staten Island (I guess as a "pay-off" for the long-time support of his bud Guy Molinari).
Doug aka BMTman
[Rudy is behind the one proposed for Staten Island (I guess as a "pay-off" for the long-time support of his bud Guy Molinari).]
A far better "pay-off" for Staten Island would be using the money to rebuild the St. George ferry terminal. $71 million wouldn't quite cover the entire projected cost, but it would be a good start and if worst came to worst it would at least be enough for a somewhat scaled-down job. And there's certainly a need. The current St. George terminal is a shabby disgrace.
02/09/2000
The St.George terminal is scheduled for a rebuilding soon.
Bill Newkirk
The $71M stadium is just another Rudy gift to Staten Islanders, to secure votes for his Senate run.
It also has the purpose of giving them tax dollars from the other boroughs, which was not accomplished with the $3 express bus fare. They're still reeling over that one - they wanted the fare rolled back ONLY for S.I., so that the rest of the city (at $4) would subsidize them. How can everybody else pay our way when they're getting the same break?
Hi, anyone happen to know the history of an overpass at Springfield Blvd and 77st near Union Turnpike.
Its in very good shape and used to be a railroad overpass. It was converted to a nature trail and has the sate 1924 on one of the retaining walls. The Q27 pass under it just North of Union Turnpike.
Can this be part of the abandoned Far Rockaway branch?
I belive it is actually the Old Vanderbuilt Expy. the first Highway in NYC. It runs from Cunningham park out to where Credmore Hospital is.
It have ridden my bike on it many times there are no signs of it ever being a RR track nor does it seem wide enough.
It runs from Cunningham Park out to SUFFOLK COUNTY.
It's the Vanderbilt Parkway
I believe that you are talking about an old LIRR ROW. Bob Anderson's LIRR History website has a lot of information on this line.
www.lirrhistory.com
Chuck
No, it's the Vanderbilt Motor Parkway.
The Central RR of Long Island crossed at grade and its location at Springfield Blvd was where the Grand Central Parkway is currently located.
That's correct, the overpasses at Springfield Blvd., Bell Blvd, Hollis Hills Terrace, and 73rd Ave. (I may have missed one or two) are the remains of the Long Island (Vanderbilt) Motor Parkway.
Check out http://www.hempsteadplains.com/motrpkwy.htm
There is evidence of the Creedmoor spur around 87th-88th Avenue at Cross Island Parkway. Many many years ago it ran (at grade) to Flushing. The ROW is defined by a park between Overhill and Peck Avenues.
Vanderbilt Parkway actually begins at 199th Street near the Horace Harding Boulevard. It goes south (crosses 73rd Ave), then turns sharply east. I believe there's an overpass that crosses Francis Lewis Boulevard. Then it disappears into the woods. Clearview Expressway cuts it off. It reappears at Hollis Hills Terrace and runs all the way out to Winchester Boulevard at Creedmoor. Snatches of it run through Creedmoor Hospital grounds. It veers north again, then east and disappears alongside Elkmont Avenue. 74th Avenue defines the ROW through Glen Oaks. A wisp of it runs along the northern edge of the Long Island Jewish Hospital property, starting at the dead-end foot of 74th Avenue.
After that it enters Nassau County. Bits of it are still visible in places like Lake Success, Albertson/Williston Park, Mineola, Garden City, East Meadow, Levittown, Bethpage State Park etc. In Suffolk, it is a regular road and runs all the way to Ronkonkoma.
Wayne
Just to add to it the Vanderbilt Motor Pkway was a private right of way which charged a toll to use. If I'm not mistaken there was a toll booth at every entrance. There is one remaining one in Garden City which is being used as a visitor's information booth. It is not in its original spot, not along the original pkway route. There is what's left of an on/off ramp at the Springfield Blvd overpass. For a while the parkway was also used for auto racing. That must have been wild, a private car racetrack from Queens to Suffolk! When I was assigned to a Queens precinct a while ago we used to use it as a route for our radio cars instead of Union Tnpk to go from Hollis Hills Terrace to Alley Pond Park.
I thought they just had a few mainline plazas, so you would only pay toll if you travelled through those points. But maybe everyone had to pay toll because there were few exits.
Does anyone know the communication frequencies that will be used on the new North Jersey Light Rail that will be opening soon? Also, what type of signalling will they be using.
No frequencies yet, but they use cab signals with wayside aspects-4 and 5 heads- at switch locations.
It's been a few months since I looked at it, but I seem to remember a sign by the last signals South of where the tracks enter the streets in Jersey City saying that there are no signals North of that point.
I remember that when I was a kid my parents took me to a place call United House Wrecker, in Conn It was a company that would buy the contents of houses and such. In their yard they had 2 subway cars being that I was a kid I couldn't tell or remember now what they were does anyone have any info on them and how they got there?
Thanks
United House Wrecking in Stanford did have at least one R1/9 car body on their lot. I saw it there, and it had to be at least 15 years ago. I remember that it was in good shape, and the rollsigns were intact and working.
On a later visit, I was told that the car body was shipped to England to become a restaurant. I remember seeing a picture of the restaurant, possibly on this site. If posted, you can find the car number.
Looking at the Illustrated Car Roster, Car 1144 is a cafeteria in England. This is probably the car.
My guess is that it was at least 20 years ago that United House Wreckers had the R-9 in the yard. I went up there many times, and enjoyed that place. When I built the R-9 motorman's cab, I took the measurements of the car at United House Wreckers.
Is United House Wreckers still in the same place? I have a memory that they moved to a smaller place.
SNEAKY THINGS HAPPEN WHEN CTA IS ON KRUESI CONTROL
by John Kass
-- David
Chicago, IL
Way back when on this post, somone told me that the manhattan side of the bridge that leads to 6th av had a tunnel access that can connect to the broadway line. Couldn't the TA work on this tunnel, connecting southbound "N" service to run via Bway Express and then up the bridge(at least until the broadway side is done).
I hope the bridge never closes. I come from the start of the "Q" line in Bklyn, and my commute would be a nightmae trying to get to work without the bridge. When the bridge closed during middays 2 years ago, they eliminated wkdy express service. all that was running were Q service via bway, local.
The North side of the bridge connected to B'way before it was connected to 6th Ave. When that change was made, the B'way connection was moved to the South side of the bridge, which was dis-connected from the Nassau Loop. I don't think the B'way-North side connection exists anymore.
The tunnel itself is still there, although the connection was severed in 1967. As a matter of fact, they installed new lighting recently. You can see it from the front end of a Manhattan-bound train as it swings off the bridge to Chrystie St.
Has there ever been talk of of connection the SIRT to the rest of the subway it seems that a tunnel from St.George to join the Bdwy line would be a straight line.
but I'm sure there wouldn't be enough riders to justify the expence of the tunnel
Oh yes. The old SIRT 1925 cars were built to resemble BMT standards for that reason. Some provisions/construction for a tunnel (from Brooklyn to SI) exist near the BMT 59th Street/4th Avenue station. A shaft was constructed near the Brooklyn waterline also, but sealed up.
Of course there is a tunnel from Brooklyn to Staten Island - a water supply tunnel!
i'm wondering if sirt is planning to get newer subway cars once the ta gets a new order. the r44 that SIRT has never got rehabilitated, and i think they look the same since they began in serivce way back when. will sirt get R68 cars(now that would be real nice) or are they getting something else, or will the cars get rebulit?
Do they still have the Blue strip?
No they don't the stripe and they did get General Overhaul at the TA shops.
They were sent out to a private contractor for overhaul, but they defaulted.
yup, and the old numbers too #388-#466. They also look good without the scratches on the windows(it's there, but not much exists on them).
The Shoreline Trolley Museum has their 2000 Schedule online at:
http://www.bera.org/schedule.html.
Some great things this year as the line is 100 years old this year. Special Stuff is being scheduled and it is a great year to become a member.
Perhaps I'm not a web wizard. I tried to post an old subway photograph here (jpeg image) with no luck (only text). I have Microsoft IE 5. I've seen photos attached to postings before. How is this done?
Would appreciate some advice from the more internet-knowledgable. THANKS!
Like this:
<img src="http://URL_OF_IMAGE_GOES_HERE">
Note that the image must already be published on a web server in order for people to be able to see it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Two more things:
If you go to http://www.NthWard.com/images/banners/banners.htm, you will see the source code I usually copy and paste for my own Nth Ward banners like you see below. Feel free to borrow the HTML code and modify it for your own use.
Also, for images larger than a few kilobytes, it might be a good idea to indicate the size of the file within the subject line of the posting so that people can skip that posting if they do not wish to wait for it to download.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I like the Roman numeral signs, as well as the epsilon. It's a different look.
That's not an E, that's a Sigma.
Oh, I forgot to mention that file names on the web are case-sensitive. You got the HTML syntax correct, but I did some digging and I think you'll have better luck if you try using "dashdan.JPG" instead of "dashdan.jpg" in this case.
You may also want to warn people that the image file is 70 KB. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'm in an argument with a co-worker over native NY terminology. One of us claims that New Yorkers commonly refer to their subway lines by their colors, in particular the "red" line above Columbus Circle. One of us claims that New Yorkers would never call their lines by their colors except when in the presence of non-New Yorkers who might otherwise be confused. Only new to New York to New Yorkers and tourists would call a line by its color.
Who's right?
I've lived in NYc for my whole live and have never said I'm taking the Green to the Orange... its either the Lexinton Ave or the 6 to the F
I've never refered to 6th Ave as the Orange Line or Broadway as the Yellow line. Most of the time in Manahttan it's by the street name, in Brooklyn its 4th Ave Line, Brighton, Sea Beach etc.
Heck I still catch myself saying RR.
You are, and for several reasons.
1) The NYC subway is now 96 years old, and the colors we've become familiar with have only been around for about 20 years. Old habits die hard.
2) Color alone often doesn't tell you enough because of local and express service. Your example of "red" to Columbus Circle wouldn't be very helpful if your victim chooses the 2 or the 3, which don't stop there.
3) What color a line is depends (with one exception) on where the line goes in Manhattan. Lines going up Lower Broadway are yellow; 6th Ave. lines are orange, etc. Sometimes, due to construction, changing use patterns, or sheer perversity, the MTA will change lines around. The best example is the "Q" express. For years this line operated on Broadway and was yellow. However, because the Manhattan Bridge was discovered to be on the verge of falling into the East River, the Q was "temporarily" rerouted through a tunnel that connects to 6th Avenue, and is now orange. (The one exception is the "light green" G, which doesn't enter Manhattan.)
4) In my experience, systems that use colors alone to identify lines are dinky little toys designed to be used by morons. Case in point: the DC Metro. I grew up with it, and was ever thankful when it finally came to my godforsaken little corner of suburbia, but it never failed to amaze me just how many times you'd have to explain the concept of "transferring" to batches of inbred tourists. Since colors don't require literacy, they make the explanations just slightly simpler.
Of course, these are the same tourists who in Manhattan only move by charter bus, and with good reason -- outside of a protected habitat, their true Darwinian function is revealed: as lunch. Kind of like cattle and rabbits.
Numbers, letters and street names (Lexington Ave. Express) only. I cringe when I hear "blue train" and always try and clue in a newcomer that it's numbers, letters and street names.
Chuck
I've never heard a New Yorker refer to the line colors. I have heard people who we not very familiar with the system mention the line colors once or twice - but it just to say something like... "I think it's one of the orange line" or "Is the N train a yellow line?"
Wayne
If there was only one train per line, like in Washington, going by colors would make more sense. In New York, you'd have to differentiate between Red 1, Red 2 and Red 3 to describe the IRT Seventh Ave. line, Blue 1 and Blue 2 for the IND Eighth Ave., Orange 1, Orange 2 Orange 3 and Orange 4 for Sixth Ave., etc. Not good, especially if someone wants to get off at 86th and CPW and is told to take the Blue train and ends up at 125th St.
02/09/2000
Being creatures of habit, New Yorkers NEVER identify their subway lines by color. It's either the (D) train or number 4 train. Even sometimes you hear on the radio or TV about a derailment on the IRT 7th Avenue or BMT Sea Beach line.
Bill Newkirk
My mother tells me a funny story concerning the opposite.
She had a friend visiting from Boston once. She gave him directions to her home and told him to take the EL(which everyone in Philly knows as the Market-Frankford Line) but when he got here, he looked for signs saying "L" like the letter L as the Canarsie Line uses. He finally got directions from someone and hwne he arrived told my mom she should have said the Market-Frankford or Blue Line.
Though I'm not from NYC, I've been on this forum long enough to pick up some things you natives have. When I visit NYC I almost always seem to get asked for directions by tourists(strange as I'm one myself) and cringe hwne they say "Where is the Blue Line?" or "Which Blue Line do I take to Coney Island?"
I personally do not find the map hard to read at all(I didn't the very first time I ever looked at one which was long before I'd either ever visited NYC or heard of the internet, much less nycsubway.org).
I always give friends the NAMES when the tell me they're going to NYC:
-NEVER ask for subway lines by color! On top of either annoying or confusing the person you ask, you probably won't get a response
-ALWAYS carry a map but NEVER keep it out unfolded all the time, especially with a camera dangling from your neck
-MEMORIZE the lines you're going to use on the trip there
-EXPECT the unexpected, by this I mean G.O.'s, line closures and the like(I've never had a NYC trip when there wasn't a G.O. on a line I had to use)
-STAY alert and pay attention to the train you board.
I am a Station Agent and have used color but only if the customer shows signs of not understanding the "take the 1 train to..."' My second attempt then is "Let's look at the map. Do you see where the Red meets the blue and Orange? OK. Take the 1 train- look for a 1 in a red circle and get off at 59th street. Now follow the signs to the C trasin. It will be a white C in a blue Circle." I then look at them and see the lights come on and they tell me "Thank you- it is so easy!"
Although I'm familiar with New York's color code, I don't use it. The A train will forevermore be the A train; the line which the N and R run on in Manhattan will always be the BMT Broadway line, etc.
Old habits do die hard.
Chicago is another story. I'm cool with their color code.
I'm not out to criticize anyone. I'm just curious about what happened today on the 6th Avenue Line. I was on the 9AM Q from Brighton and we were held up for half an hour due to a 'Major Police investigation at the 42nd Street station' (As the conductor and Motorwoman put it). Our train was rerouted on the 6th Av local, and then every other train behind us went express like nothing happened! Plus, when we reached 42 street, there was nothing there. huh?????? Also, before we were rerouted onto the F line at West 4, the motorwoman told us we were to run along the 8th avenue line-- but we obviously didn't. All that did was get rid of many passengers on the train. Did anyone else experience this problem today?
I was on a North-bound B at about the same time. Our trip came to a grinding halt once we reached W4th, where we were told our train was being "held". I went upstairs and caught an F on the E tracks and took it uptown ...anyone know anything about what happened?
I was unfortuate enought to be on the uptown B at about 9:30 this morning. The train stoped at Broadway and the conductor made the anouncement that the train was going to run on the 8th ave line and would be making those stops. It was a mess. An F train pulled up on the other track and many passangers, including me switched trains. Then the B left. Then a Q pulled up and many passangers and I switched again. The motormen of both trains were yelling at eachoter for the passangers to get in the Q train because it was going to leave first. Well it did and I was fortunate enough to hear the motormens radio. From what I heard it sounded like a motorman was hit on 42nd street. Then the train stopped on west 4th, we were told to get off the train and go upstairs to catch an A or E train. It was messy.
Sounds like when I was told a red line here in DC was out of service at Farragut and then they said it was in service. Everyone got on and then at Friendship where I (fortunatly) got off, they took the train out of service for a door problem and kept it OOS.
For those who asked me to not rush it--that there would be info coming out about it, sorry, but it's time to find out just what progress, if any, there has been concerning the Stillwell Ave Tour. Is is still on the back burner, and what dates are being considered, and who is organizing it? I'd like to know so I can start making plans to attend. I'm out here on the West Coast, and it's goint to take time to make airline and hotel plans. So please, anyone out there with up-
to-date info let me and the rest of us know.
Are you talking about the Transit Musuem sponsered tour?
Members only can sign up this week, next week for non-members.
If it is a subtalk sponsored tour without offical access to the shops/yards, I don't know.
I just looked on the museum website and saw no info on such a trip. Does anyone have anymore info on the trip? Thanks. --Kevin.
Kevin--- Sea Beach Fred was referring to a planned
tour of the Coney Island area and BMT by members of
SubTalk, around the end of April
The Transit Museum does have a tour scheduled on
Tuesday Feb 22 at 6 PM, lead by Mike Hanna of the
Coney Island Overhaul Shop. I think it will focus
on the restoration work done by the volunteers there
on the Museum cars.
There are a couple of other tours planned within the
next month.
Sun Feb 20--- the stations on the A train above
103rd streeet
Sat Mar 11 subway and walking tour of the G line in
Brooklyn and Queens
Sat Mar 18 tour of Central Electronics Shop in
Woodside where everything electronic is repaired.
Members of the Museum get 1st crack at the tickets
this week. Then it's open to non members.
tickets are $15 for members, and $20 for non-members
and $75 for SubTalk posters ( just a joke )
For reservations call 718-243-8601
ask for Vinny Voltage ( just a joke )
Hey Fred, I know a good travel agent you can use in Hawaii to get you to NYC
Yea Bob, so do I, but itwould be the long way around, California to Hawaii to NY. I like you buddy but not that much.
<< a planned tour of the Coney Island area and BMT by members of
SubTalk, around the end of April >>
April 29, to be exact.
Can someone post/email a summary of this trip so it can be added to the Upcoming Events? Thanks.
And I need to know is 1. Is this trip a certainty and 2. Is it April 29?
HeyPaul,could you write something up for Dave Pirmann?
Dave--- If I am not mistaken, you originally suggested the idea for a get together of SubTalkers on April 29th when you were going to be in the city. At that point, I said that I would be glad to join you. Then it began to get complicated, with some people having a problem with that day, and others having preferences with early or late in the day. Then we got all kinds of input about what subway lines to ride on, or what amusement park facilities to ride. At around this point, by nature, I began to tune out of the process.
In terms of giving David Pirmann something to post, I am at a loss. I am not clear as to the focus of the event. If it is an opportunity to meet other people who post on this message board, then it can be billed as such. If people desire to ride the subway, it is not clear to me what are the plans?
I have noted Sea Beach Fred's request for a definite date and plans, as he will be coming from the West Coast. I will not take responsibility for his making a decision what to do.
A couple of months ago, I made arrangements to meet Ian, who was coming to ride the subways in New York. He had never been to certain parts of Brooklyn, and I was happy to accompany him and share what little I knew. We spent about 7 hours riding all over on buses and trains, and walking around where it seemed interesting. It was the nicest time I've spent with another person on the transit system.
If the people who are currently interested can spell out what they would want to happen on April 29th, then I could tell David about our plans.
I would be interested in hearing views from persons who have take Amtrak's new Acela Regional Service. I recently traveled to Boston on Acela and was disappointed. On the outbound trip, Train 132 was five minutes late in leaving, resulting in a delay of thirty minutes because it ended up following a MetroNorth commuter train. On the return trip, Train 133 was delayed in Providence, Rhode Island, because the electrical wires were out between Kingston, Rhode Island, and New London, Connecticut. Because of pressing matters in New York and Amtrak's inability to determine when service would resume, I decided to disembark and rent a car from the Providence airport at an additional all-in extra expense of USD130.00. I understand that Train 133 was in fact two and a half hours late arriving in New York City.
I would be interested in hearing views from persons who have take Amtrak's new Acela Regional Service. I recently traveled to Boston on Acela and was disappointed. On the outbound trip, Train 132 was five minutes late in leaving, resulting in a delay of thirty minutes because it ended up following a MetroNorth commuter train. On the return trip, Train 133 was delayed in Providence, Rhode Island, because the electrical wires were out between Kingston, Rhode Island, and New London, Connecticut. Because of pressing matters in New York and Amtrak's inability to determine when service would resume, I decided to disembark and rent a car from the Providence airport at an additional all-in extra expense of USD130.00. I understand that Train 133 was in fact two and a half hours late arriving in New York City.
If you were at the station why didn't you stop complaining, save your money, take out your camera, grab a bit to eat and shoot some Amtrak ot P&W action. You could have saved yourself the aggrivation of I-95 and if someone was expecting you, you could have just blamed Amtral and has a good laugh all the while clutching at those 2 rolls of exposed film in your pocket.
My wife took Amtrak to Saratoga for a business meeting. That didn't work out too well either. She had to board at 6 a.m., then found out there was no hot and cold water -- and no coffee for sale. The train was late.
On the way back, Amtrak was on time. But (at 7:30 at night) the A train was late, and so packed she felt like she was going to pass out. To add insult to injury, she saw a few Es go by on the local track, but of course that is a different platform at Penn Station.
Joisey Mike:
You have a point. Unfortunately, I didn't have the option of hanging around Providence if there were other means available due to job related pressure.
Alex
But I was saying, wink wink, that everybody understands it when Amtrak's late, wink wink, and you're the victim, wink wink, and you weren't having fun for those 2.5 hours, wink wink. What I am trying to wink about is that you can use Amtrak's unrelyability (real or made up) to skip work and go railfanning.
I wish. For the present, I think I will have to avoid Amtrak when I have serious commitments. I was hoping that Amtrak's high speed rail service really would succeed because I love the trains, especially on the route between New York and Boston. It looks like it may just be a flop, even when the real high speed train sets are in service.
I was a pathetic 40 minutes late last time I went up from NY to Hartford, so I did what I should have done the first time Amtrak screwed me over (few years back):
I called and demanded a refund.
And I got a voucher for $25 - just about enough to cover the cost with a student advantage discount.
I've been on the Metroliner - it's nice, but not $75 (Phl to NY) nice.
I have the same low expectations for the express sets. I'll only ride them once - I intend to go to Europe next winter and take a few real trains, and I'm gonna do an A/B comparision of the two.
I wanna see if the billions spent were really worth it.
Over the last 6 months my Amtrak trains have been right ontime 66% of the time or 4/6. The other two times my train was delayed about 45 min by being stuck behind an NJT local (Amtrak should have NEVER removed the crossovers at NASSAU and MILLHAM) and the other time my train was 50 min late arriving at New Haven via the inland route, but that time I didin't mind because hey, its New Haven and so I watch 50 min worth of power changes.
I've been to Europe and all I can say is that their train service is a mixed bag. First you can get anywhere, easily by train and the trains like the TGV are very fast. However, they trains are very small and light weight so you'll never want to be in one during a crash and its like being stuffed in a bouncy bread box. Also if you acutally live in Europe and don't have the advantage of a Rail Pass you'll be paying through the nose. They make Amtrak's rates look like a bargain.
/*I've been to Europe and all I can say is that their train service is a mixed bag. First you can get anywhere, easily by train and the trains like
the TGV are very fast. However, they trains are very small and light weight so you'll never want to be in one during a crash and its like
being stuffed in a bouncy bread box.
*/
I once talked to a guy on Amtrak who went frequently to Europe. He said that the TGV, etc, all ride decently, and certainly better than the Amfleets we were (stuck) in...
as far as being in a crash? I'm not yet convinced that US rail lines are any safer, not to mention I do NOT believe in the SUV approach to safety. It's better to prevent an accident, as opposed to prevent deaths as a result of.
I don't think any U.S. type equipment would have survived the ICE train wreck of a few years ago.
Safety should be a system, not simply placeing the passengers in a tank and hoping for the best.
I do believe in the SUV or Volvo approach to safety. Did you know that they are starting to make their trains out of Aluminum? They reason they are so fast is not because they good trains, its beause they don't weigh anything. I mean look at the Chase MD Amtrak crash. It was a 148 mph collision and only 25 people were killed. The Amfleets remained mostly intact and just slid around a bit. I think that German train was going about 150 when it flew off the tracks and its cars just disintegrated on impact. Also, recently in the UK a locomotive hauled train rear-ended an lite running MU and it seperated the passerger shell from the frame/floor. In regrads to size I British friend who came frequently comes over here to ride Amtrak says that an Amtrak coach seat is as big as a British First Class seat. To get a feel for the standard coach width, chop off the 4th seat in an Amfleet and then put 4 new seats in the remaining space for 3. Also Europian trains are very short. In many places the vertical clearance is only 10-12 feet. Also the TGV's are very smooth and you hardly know your moving, but the local MU's feel like a bus on rails going over a washboard road.
YOu are right when you say that safety sould be a system, but you can never prevent all accidents and its impossible to prevent freak accidents so its best to have a good system AND ride in a tank. I even think that trains should be equipped with rams so they don't even have to stop after a grade crossing accident.
I think most of us here hope they get it right this time.
Clever advertisement, new equipment, but nothing else just won't do it. I hope it's not going to be the same old same old for the riders.
Mr t__:^)
I think the ridership will get increasingly vocal if the service falters, particularly if passengers are expected to shell out USD140-150 for a one-way ticket when the actual high speed train set is put into service. Right now, there are no adverse consequences for Amtrak if the service is poor. As long as Amtrak is on the federal gravy train, you can be sure there will be no real incentive to create a world class system. I keep hoping though.
You ought to open your eyes and get out of the US ghetto you're in. The Japanese have been running high-speed rail (270 kph) trains between Tokyo and Osaka since 1964 with not a single fatality or derailment. Not one. The high-speed system now includes additional lines to Northern & Central Japan which have also operated since opening with zero fatalities. No European or US system even comes close, but the cultural blinders of most of the contributors to this site mean Japanese rail is almost always left out of the analysis. Big contributors to the unmatched safety record: dedicated tracks, fail-safe signaling systems, and train engineers who are career professionals. Trains run at intervals as frequent as every 5 minutes. They are clean, safe & a joy to ride.
If you get stuck in Providence again, you might try taking a bus to NYC. They stop to pick up passengers only a few blocks from the "new" train station (right across from the old station).
Thanks. I will remember that.
Interested to read comments about "Acela Regional". The "Express" trains are still tied up in testing and defect correction, and it looks like they will be until July or so.
The problem, once again, is that you can't get better service simply by buying and refurbishing equipment. AMtrak seems to lack a commitment to reliable operation. Why else would the INAGURAL RUN of Acela Regional have left BOS 20 minutes late because nobody noticed that the car washer had damaged the pantograph?
I already take Northeast Direct instead of the Metroliner when traveling PHL to NYP or WAS, since the Metroliner price premium is about 125%. Amtrak says AE fares are going to be "20% to 30%" above that! And that money will save me about 20 minutes each way. Guess I'll ride it once.
I will give it a go at least once. My concern is the same as yours - without a commitment to reliable operation at all levels, how does Amtrak expect to sell a high speed product? I really have had only one or two disappointments with the air shuttles in the Northeast Corridor, but with Amtrak, the screw ups have been far more frequent.
Maybe weaning them from the government is the only way to bring accountability to this organization.
Hi, I like to know if any part of the Bergen COunty light rail is open to the public yet? I heard about the field trip and I'm looking forward to going. Someone mentioned that it was going to be "proceed using cab signals" a la Metro North except for interlocks. If you know more details, please post.
The Newark subway is extended as far as the incline to the Eire Lakawana ROW. The tracks curve, cross Franklin Ave and up they go. Franklin Ave is undergoing reconstruction. The ROW that the line will take is abandoned, I assume. The part near the Franklin AVe station has houses build on it? About how far does the ROW go in the other direction? Does it dead end somewere?
> I like to know if any part of the Bergen COunty light rail is open
> to the public yet?
The Bayonne-Jersey City (Exchange Place) segment is scheduled to open on 3/25/2000, with the line to Hoboken opening probably in 2001. It won't reach Bergen County for at least another 2-3 years, I'd guess.
-Dave
The Erie Lackawanna ROW (former Erie RR West Orange branch) does have occasional freight trains as far as Bloomfield, which will continue to run at night when LRV service starts. The line west of Bloomfield to West Orange is abandoned, but the ROW is visible in many places. I don't think think any houses have been built on it, but parking lots and storage yards fill up some of the space. The line did dead-end at a station in West Orange which was torn down about 30 years ago. There is a big empty lot on Main St. in West Orange where the station once stood.
To the east of Franklin Avenue, the ROW connects to the Boonton Line which runs to Hoboken.
Here's another what is better opinion question. What type of train control system you would like to see on the NYC subway. First, the current with deadmans, GT and ST signals, route signaling and ATS trip arms. Or a 5 speed, speed signaling system with cab signals coupled to a Locomotive Speed Limiter and an acknowledgement whistle. Most signals would be of the multi-head type and automatic signals being worked as Stop and Proceede. The 5 speeds would be scaled to subway needs.
My second question is, if you were/are a T/O would you prefer ATO and sitting there staring blankly out the front window or would you prefer to acutally drive the train like you do today. If ATO was installed and you had the option of driving the train yourself, would you and for what % of the time would you drive vs ATO.
That sound like the LIRR and most other systems used today.
The current TA signal system is way too old and needs to be replaced.
I would not make it all ATO. ATO would be used for long express runs, like on the Brighton Line. Local and non-revenue moves will be manual.
I think that will give the motorman more control over the train.
I would use ATO when I really tired like at the end of the day. Or during my morning coffee. I would not use ATO during rush hours because there are too many people on the platforms and that would make things dangerous.
The second method of signaling would allow trains to run closer together and increase speed(something that is needed since field shunting) thus speeding up service.
Having been a train operator for over a decade, and having been through the training at NJT as well, I would prefer the cab signalling and train control ENFORCEMENT of those found in major railroads such as Amtrak and LIRR with color position wayside signalling and floating block technonogy. I'd also hope to keep my job operating instead of being a "pilot" but I'd ask the TA for a pulse sensory alertor instead of a deadman such as found in ALP44s. The problem here would be as to decide on the technology for postitive train stop. Until recently, the most restrictive speed of a locomotive or train is resticted, not a full stop. Should the tripping arms and valves stay in place and can floating block technology be utilized or do the stop arms join the Perey Turnstyles as a new stopping procedure be incorporated? Last, I might be tempted to nod off if I didn't have any real responsibility so I would operate at 100% of my work program to protect my job.
For subways the traditional 5 speeds would have to be changed. I would say that R=10, S=15, M=25, L=35 and N=40 or 45. Are these good? Anybody have any sugestions?
Also its glad to see another fan of position light signals. There was a big arguement on the railway signaling e-mail list about PL signals. If you would be so kind as to e-mail me or post here the reasons you like CPL signals and why you feel they are obviously superior to any other type of signal. I just need some more ammo to throw back at the heritics on the RS list.
Could you point me in the direction to subscribe to that list? Sounds interesting.
Go to
Go to Onelist and search for Railway-Signaling. Then follow the simple registration process and then sign up for the list. Another good one is the Interlocking Towers list.
Position Light signals in subway tunnels?! I don't think so.
Color light signals are superior because you can make out the
aspect by color alone even when you have some obstructions
or curves in the way.
Realistically, any drastic change to the signal aspects would
require massive retraining and would probably result in many
accidents and violations during the transition period.
Traditional ASC a la MNCRR or LIRR in the subway? No thanks.
You'd have WAY too many of those pesky full-service acknowledgements.
There's a new type of cab signal system being tried out that
provides an advance indication of an upcoming restriction or
code drop, including distance to event.
Stop-and-proceed automatics? Not a good idea with the current crew.
Keep the trips on the xlking signals, get rid of them on the
autos, and modify the traditional ASC so 0-code really enforces stop.
You can get rid of the double-red behind a train if you can
give a slow approach and enforce it with ASC.
All fantasy anyway because none of this is going to happen unless
the TA takes an about face and abandons there CBTC plans.
I agree that only home and approach signals could have trippers under an automated scenario.
It seems that permissive reds (key-bys) have been ruled out for good already. (I know, I know--Coney Island)
Subway trains accelerate and decelerate so much faster than “heavy rail” trains that a five speed system wouldn’t offer much advantage. There really are four speed aspects already, since GT and ST signals dictate a particular speed. WD (damn them) also fall into that category.
I like the route signalling because it prevents merry mixups at interlockings, like a mistaken punch. --BTW, are these super-explicit instruction sheets taped to the wall next to the “punch boxes” something new? The data on them seems like it should be common knowledge.....?
And another thing, (indulge me,) I notice that a lot of TO’s wait until twoo-shot GT’s turn _green_ before passing, when they could actually pass on “Yellow + S” Why is that, is that the offical method of dealing with them?
dave
In the tunnels, it would be near impossible for those with the inadequate training the NYCTA provides to new T/Os, to distinguish the differences between the older incandescant light and the position lighting on the old PRR. Since we are given the cheapest form of a color blind test and operate in tunnels more than we do outdoors, it is a good choice. I happen to like the old IRT signalling better than the BMT (ie red over green) and am jumping over there in March before they tear them up. I am not sure as to how the field shunt mods will affect your speed except as to add that if the TA moves forward to eliminate T/Os, rest assured that your automated R142s and 143s will not obtain anything over the "limited speed indication". It would be nice to see the NORAC book down here but the TA is not serious about safety as much as they would like you to think so.
When did this station go out of service? I pass it every night.. noticing the graffiti and such. (On the IRT 1,2,3,9 lines)
Rob
it was closed in 1959 when 96th St was lengthened to accodate the longer trains. and it has an exit on 94th st so 91 wasn't nneded any longer, like 18th and Worth Sts on the East side.
Take a look at Disused and Abandoned Stations for pictures and a little history.
-Dave
It was deemed redundant when the 96th St. station was extened southward and an enterance built at 93rd. St. in the early 50's.
Something just occur to me. Two stations on the Brighton Line are just two blocks away from each other. Beverly RD. and Courtly RD.(I'm not sure about the spelling). From what I understand they used to be privite stations. When the TA took over why didn't they close one of the stations? It would make sense. They are so close that the R-68 has to stop before reaching 15 MPH.
Wow! That is pretty dang close. According to my Hagstrom map, Beverly and Cortelyou Roads are just ONE block apart.
There is a spot in lower Manhattan where the entrances to two consecutive stations are on opposite ends of the SAME block (almost; one of them is a little around the corner).
Near the corner of Fulton St. and Church St., there is an entrance for the Chambers St. station on the A train. Then, walking east on Fulton St., there is an entrance for the next stop -- Broadway/Nassau -- before you even get to the next corner (which is Broadway).
Of course, this is a bit of an apples-and-oranges comparison. Both Chambers/WTC and Broadway/Nassau are enormous, sprawling stations, and the two exits which stand so close to each other are actually on the extreme ends of each station. Still, it's kind of neat.
But, I would be curious to know how those two Brighton stations have survived to this day despite being so close together.
Ferdinand Cesarano
I don't understand either. Clearly, one should have been closed. However a possible explanation would be that one station closing would have increased the patronage of the other, and those 2 stations have narrow platforms and stairwells. It would have been dificult to build a bigger station with houses abutting the trench the line runs in.
Beverley and Cortelyou (the streets) are about one Manhattan "avenue" block apart. The distance between adjacent platform ends is just about (or maybe less than) 600 feet, meaning that the train is entering one before it has fully departed the other.
My understanding is that, when the Brighton Line was being built, the Brooklyn Rapid Transit Company was forced to build Beverley Road as a separate station by the then-mayor of Brooklyn, who threatened to withhold approval AND would not accept the alternative of a single combined station with an entrance at each street.
Well that was nearly a century ago. It could have been done much later by the city.
Flatbush has a mix of apartment buildings and big Victorians built for the very rich. Church Avenue and Cortelyou road are not rich -- the have apartments over stores. The wealthy of the Prospect Park South development presumably wanted their own station so they would not have to board with the riff raff at the other stations.
The TA would probably love to close Beverly Road, but the same political dynamic applies.
While that is an extreme example, in general, the IRT and BMT put stations too close together. The extra stops cost more time than the walk saved. I guess the lines were built to compete with trolleys, and they wanted to capture a share of the lazy ridership. In some cases, stations have been closed. In other cases, closing one station would leave some people too far away. You'd have to close two, and build a station between them. The later IND spaced stations further away.
Not quite.
By 1902, when the work was done, Brooklyn was one of the five boroughs. As I understand it, the developer of the housing in the area wanted a station at Beverley Road and offered to pay for it.
David
What's so unusual about the R-68s only reaching 15 mph?
Nothing really. It's just that the R-68s have acquired a reputation for being slow. Back in the good old days, chances are the Triplexes and BMT standards only got up to 15 mph or so between those two stations as well. I liken it to driving down a street with unsychronized traffic signals. If I get going when a light turns green, and there's an intersection just ahead with a red light, I'm not going to punch the accelerator if I know I'm going to have to stop right away.
>>>>They are so close that the R-68 has to stop before reaching 15 MPH.<<<<<<
This is the case at most stations. 8-)
Peace,
Andee
Hey guys don't feel to bad about the station spacing. Here in Philly on our Market-Frankford El along Market Street in center city the stations are so close its crazy. You have 15th, 13th, 11th 8th. Try to figure that one out.
Chicago has the same situation in its tunnels - the platforms are continuous, IIRC (it's been over twenty years since I've ridden the subway there).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Chicago subway tunnels in the loop under State St. (red line) and Dearborn St. (blue line) were designed as long platforms with entrances every block (the entrances are actually located mid-block). The train stopping points are actually about 2 blocks apart, with a total of three stops along Dearborn (blue line) and four along State (red line, platform is 2 or 3 blocks longer).
The loop L used to have stations about every two blocks also, but there are fewer now (the Randolph and Madison stations on the Wells St. leg were replaced by a new station at Washingon. However, weekends some of the stations are closed.
The extra stations are great in rush hours for spreading out the passenger load, and closing them on weekends when traffic is lighter and there's another station 2 blocks away makes a lot of sense.
-- Ed Sachs
You didn't make it clear enough that the whole subway is not one continous platform in Chicago; only in the Loop is there a continuous platform consisting of 3 stations in both subways (4 in the State St., actually)
Closing some Loop "L" stations on weekends makes no sense because they still have to be staffed to protect the transit card and change machines. It made sense when agents collected the fares, so the stations could be completely closed and left unattended (don't forget a few years ago, at night, most stations were left unattended with fares collected on the train).
is it possible to walk the length of the three and four station platforms, or are they somehow sectioned off into individual stations? I think it would be kind of fun to be able to walk along the tunnel with the trains traveling by.
I remember walking thru one station to another in the loop subway back in the 70s, but no train came thru.
Indeed, you can walk through the 3-4 stations. If you've just missed a train, you can run and catch it at the next stop.
Has anyone tried the Kings Highway, Brighton Line Interlocking Signal Simulation program? This thing is great. It's as close to having a real life signal control panel on your computer as you can get. Download it from the link below.
http://www.teamats.com/steel/index.html
I downloaded it and I think the best is Bernard Greenberg's. It is alot simpler and you can control the trains yourself and have them come when you want them to. It is alot better.
Where can I get this programme you speak of?
You can find it at the address below:
http://www.teamats.com/steel/index.html
I really can't tell. The installation program crashes. If this was the intent, I salute the author on a realistic NYCT tour de force.
Has anyone tried the Kings Highway, Brighton Line Interlocking Signal Simulation program? This thing is great. It's as close to having a real life signal control panel on your computer as you can get. Download it from the link below.
http://www.teamats.com/steel/index.html
I passed by the site where those four R30's are, in Glenale, CA (near Los Angeles) this past weekend on the way to Magic Mountain. Looks like they are now being scrapped out.
Car 8275 was cut in half and both pieces were there when I photographed them back in November. Car 8401 appears to have disappeared altogether.
The other two (blue/silver and heavily grafittied, no #'s available) are still there, but now off their trucks. They were sitting on their trucks in November, resting in dirt -- no rails under them.
I passed by the site where those four R30's are, in Glendale, CA (near Los Angeles) this past weekend on the way to Magic Mountain. Looks like they are now being scrapped out.
Car 8275 was cut in half and both pieces were there when I photographed them back in November. One half is missing. Car 8401 appears to have disappeared altogether.
The other two (blue/silver and heavily grafittied, no #'s available) are still there, but now off their trucks. They were sitting on their trucks in November, resting in dirt -- no rails under them.
Where in Glendale are they? I would like to see them, if possible.
134 freeway near the 5 across from the gene autry museum hope you can find it R 30s cars
i always look over there every time i drive thru there !!!
wish you could see this same thing in NEW YORK N.Y. ( LAS VEGAS ) !!!!!!!
NEW YORK ?????? NO SUBWAY ?????? WHAT ??? OH WELL !!
Since we've discussed the ongoing cracks to abandoment scenario, and possible replacement scenarios, we might as well discuss the miracle scenario. In this scenario, after spending $800 million and taking 23 years, SURPRISE the fix works, no cracks appear ever again, speed restrictions on trains are removed, and for $2 million per year (most of which goes for painting) the bridge lasts and takes trains and trucks forever. Yeah, right, but lets give the engineers this one (depsite the 20 years of failure).
Since uneven loading was blamed for past problems, my guess is that the TA tries to avoid it at all costs. With fewer trains running and a car shortage, that means many fewer trains through Montigue St. The post-Chrystie, pre-bridge problem pattern wouldn't work.
For the Brighton, my guess is the D and Q use the A/B tracks and run 6th Avenue Express, with the Q going on to Bedford Park Blvd or 168th, taking the place of the B.
To put as many trains on the other side, you'd run the N and the B over the H tracks and up the Broadway Express, and add more trains whether it is needed or not. You'd run more B trains, and take the M off the West End.
What about the 63rd Street tunnel? Having the B run up the Broadway line and terminate at 57th, and a new train (ie the V) run down the 6th Avenue line and terminate at 2nd Avenue, would duplicate service in Manhattan and waste cars. My guess is the B runs through, using the BMT/63rd St tunnel connection switch.
That leaves the R going through the Montigue tunnel. Unless crowding continues on the Brighton, in which case you might shave a D and Q train off and run the M through on the Brighton, as in the post-Chrystie pattern.
Here is the key. When the Q is not running, leaving only the D, either the N or the B has to go via tunnel to even the load. That's why I believe this pattern works, and other patterns do not. It's a way to provide even loading evenings, nights and weekends with a minmum disruption. In fact, the Q might stop running mid-days in favor of the M, to maximize the time that one service is on each side and minimize the time that two services are on each side.
A better plan would be to reconfigure the bridge so tha all Manhattan bound trains use one side and all Brooklyn bound trains use the other. This would require some construction at the Manhattan end, but it would solve the balancing problem.
A flying junction identical to the one at Hammels Wye just might do the trick on the Manhattan side. On the Brooklyn side, a track realignment would be all that's needed.
What about 57th & 6th?
(What about 57th and 6th?)
I guess it would either have to close, or be served by yet another shuttle like Grand Street.
You just answered your own question - a shuttle from 57th-6th Avenue to Grand Street.
wayne
Is the yard just before 145 st. still used for storage? This is the orignal IRT yard, right?
Lenox Yard is still used for storage. 147th Street Shop, which was on the site and was the IRT's main shop, was closed in 1960. IRT Work requiring a "main shop" is now done at 207th Street, for the most part.
David
So there was a whole underground shop there?
Nope...Lenox Yard's above ground, and so was the shop. I believe the apartment complex that's above the 148th Street station is on the site of the shop, or very near it. The station wasn't there when the shop was.
David
OH! Somehow I thought we were talking about the little storage yard on the .
Eye think you are getting the yard at the end of the #3 confused with the small underground yard on the 1/9 between 137th & 145th. It was used when they used to turn the #1 at 137th. Now they do "skip stop" from 242nd, so don't use the yard.
Mr t__:^)
Do You mean the 137 St. Storage Yard on the No.1 Broadway Line. If so yes it still is used for storage.
I'm glad SubTalkers haven't lowered themselves into the sorry state of affairs on the BusTalk side of things.....man, it's pretty bad over there.
Doug aka BMTman
doug aka bmt man !! i tried to raise some isues over there in BUS TALK but no responses
or few and not enough of other cities and towns besides new york etc.... oh well what do i know??
What has been happening on the BusTalk board is sad and a real shame. I for one will think long and hard before posting to nycsubway.org. No More politics or anything else -- just subways. THE FRIENDSHIPS THAT US SUB/BUSTALKERS MAKE THROUGH THESE BOARDS WITH OUR FELLOW TRANSIT FANS ARE FAR TOO VALUABLE TO LET ANGER DESTROY THE "TALKS".
They did Destory the Bus Talk but they will be back & hope they will behave & act like a man.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
It is very sad to see things get out of control. The friendships that are formed here are precious.
The opportunity to share information and have some fun is very precious.
I think that the recent thread on what subways were like in the 60's and 70's was an wonderful opportunity for many of us to share what the subways meant to us. It's been a great opportunity for people to talk about their feelings for transit without hurting anyone else's feelings. It was a great opportunity to remind young people to have fun with their experience of transit now, and keep an eye open for the wonder of it all.
Despite how much we may slam the powers at be in the MTA for foolish decisions, we still have a system that moves millions of people around each and every day. That's a wonder in itself.
I tried to use BUS TALK because the buses here in LOST ANGELES ( los angeles ) is TERRIBLE !!
it seemed though that BUSTALKERS were ""off topic" and too EAST COAST..... only.....
and no matter how much i tried it seemed that it was not about other cities and towns EVERYWHERE!!
not just the eastern time zone areas midwest occasionally etc...
like how about my GREYHOUND cross country BUS TALK experences !!???? oh whell !!!!!!!!!!
02/11/2000
Mr.Wille,
BusTalk is "out of service' not because of being off topic and too east coast, but way off topic by being abusive using posts with foul language etc.
This is Dave's way of "slapping" their hands so they can cool down and behave themselves. The same could happen to SubTalk and has come close, but things cooled down. Hey, we make or break this site. I prefer the former and not the latter.
Bill Newkirk
I think you find that the bus fans on the east coast are a bit more "dedicated" (for lack of a better term) to current events than the ones on the west coast -- plus there is one heck of a lot more activity, variety, etc. on the east coast.
The bus fans on the west coast (I've gotten together with many of them) are more interested in issues such as history, preservation of old buses, etc. Thre are some interested in modern-day equipment and operations, but as Mr. Willie suggests, the bus systems out here are NOT up to the "quality" (again, for lack of a better term) as those on the east coast, particularly the New York metropolitan area.
The discontinuation of BusTalk posting wasn't caused by going off-topic into worthy discourse, it happened because some people behaved like children.*
*=No offense to younger citizens intended.
We are a peaceful community and I for one refuse to participate in such rubbish, offal, garbage, mud-slinging &c.
Wayne
I'm glad that I don't post to that board. It looks like all hell has broken loose. Dave must have a headache looking at all that foolisheness. It's a good lesson to SubTalkers; if we don't watch what we say, we may not have a board to post to. Dave would no doubt take this board down if he had to. He doesn't need the stress in policing, so why bother having a board period?
-Stef
Maybe there is a business opportunity here. A separate website called "insult talk," which could be linked from nycsubway resources and other chatrooms. Those who personalize a difference of opinion could be invited to "step outside," as it were, and into a space where they could express their opinons on each other's character. I'm sure such a site could be financed by advertizers. The gun manufacturers might be interesed.
THAT is a million dollar idea!!!!
Peace,
Andee
With bus talk down how am I going to find out why 8851 was on the M1 not its usual m23????
8851 is assigned to manhattanville depot. the M1 route only has orions
assigned to that line. Westside doesn't have #8851 in their roster, so i don't know. Might have been on the M2,M3 or M5.
I miss Bustalk.
I guess you didn't realize it was a joke....
Larry, don't forget the WWF!
They could supply ads for their UPN "SmackDown" and the exploits of the popular wrestlers like "Triple H", "The Rock" and "The Big Show".
I think it has alot of merit!
LOL
Doug aka BMTman
Can you blame them though? I mean there's nothing else there for them to talk about. You see how long you can talk busses before you get so board you have to start flaming people just so you can stay awake.
I suspect that some of the folks over there could say the same thing about us. I've never visited that board so I can't speak from experience, of course, but I would assume the capability is there for the wide range of discussion that we have had.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If the folks over at BusTalk could only learn to be a little more Flxible...
:o>
W A Y N E
BOOOOOO!!!!! HISSSSSS!!!!!
-Hank :)
Rim shot!!
Eye for one liked the separation since the time I have to view the internet has a limit (self-imposed). Typically I would loginto BusTalk first, then look at my e-mail, then look at the clock to see how much time I had left to play in the SubTalk threads. Some days I would find many useful/interesting items to look at on BusTalk, other times they would be throwing rocks at each other, so I would quickly "hang up" ... some threads on SubTalk also weren't to my liking so I wouldn't answer those calls either, BUT in retorspect BusTalk was a good place for me to lear and meet colleagues.
The future: I'll peek in on Paul, Steve & Trevor's sites from time to time. These three other sites have grown since Dave provided the BusTalk forum. So, maybe Dave doesn't need to provide BusTalk anymore? I think: a thumb nail HERE of what these other sites are all about, and hot links (so folks can try and bookmark the site if they like it) might be the way to go now.
Mr t__:^)
if they combine subtalk and bus talk here, might be easier. a Lot of us that were on Bustalk come here, and a bulk of us were never involved in what occured to get bus talk shut down. I am a bus and train fan(though i can't stand the R40). Let's hope they combine both here.
which r 40 you dont like ??? the slant or regular ?? and why ??
The R-40 slant is the regular one. The flat nosed one is the modified.
I don't like them because of the flat and low-backed seats, that's it.
02/11/2000
Let's not combine BusTalk with SubTalk. Things are quiet over here, the flames we had here have been doused and I like it that way. Even Mr.Willie gave the railfan window controversy a rest.
The idea is to show the BusTalkers that this is Dave's website and he has the right to run decent and respectable B.B. and he has the right to put his foot down. BusTalkers, take a hint from us here at SubTalk. We just vent our ideas and humor, not our anger. Feel hostile? Go punch an RTS !!
Bill Newkirk
This should be an eye-opener to all sub talkers. **if** we degenerate to that level then we too may become an entry on forgotten-ny.com.
let us remain as adults (even though some posters might be under 18) and show the dignity that has been a hallmark of our site since 1995.
Sure, we can disagree but we should disagree with respect and not with hatred and name-calling that has been on bus talk.
To avoid this is simple. If there is a poster with objectionable posts- do not reply. Let's deprive the "children" of their strange fun.
May bus talk rest in peace and let's not lower this site to that level which brought down bus talk
[May bus talk rest in peace and let's not lower this site to that level which brought down bus talk]
Dave created BusTalk because of the increased frequency of bus related topics. This was a good thing, and there have been times where the discussion was very interesting as well as imformative, but over the past couple of months members of the group kept letting it degenerate into a rock throwing, mud slinging mess. That's too bad for the many fine people that also use the site. As a bus company employee I'll miss the input that educated me in many ways. I don't fault Dave in any way for what he realy had to do.
I echo the comments of the Subway-Buff and others on this thread, we need to be GOOD, and be on our guard for imposters & pranksters trying to ruin this extreemly valuable resource.
Mr t__:^)
The shame of it all,is there are people ,,like myself ,,who took the Bus Talk thing,very seriously
It is a sad thing to see BusTalk shut down, as there
were many people there who were interested in Mack
buses and Greyhound.
Let's hope it is just a temporary thing.
In case it is permanent, perhaps we should consider
some of the following things that we here on SubTalk
can do:
1) have a small section of the website devoted to
educational materials that will redirect some of the
diesel heads to the joys of being juice heads.
2) allow discussions here for about a week of
electric trolley buses to help ease the transistion.
3) discourage any mention of websites that claim to
have the hottest pictures of real or imagined
transit vehicles.
4) have all people who post here submit to a thorough evaluation of their mental functions, with the exception of yours truly...
Good idea Paul, by the way have you received any of my e mails I sent you, some have come back to me Bob
Me too, I took it seriously also. I've been a NYC bus buff since the 1960's and finally found a place where I could share and learn about different bus topics. Too bad our playground had to be shut on the account of others not behaving and who just couldn't walk away from a fight.
Problem was, some took it TOO seriously.
-Hank
It's too bad about BusTalk posting being disabled. However, I totally understand. I've been a regular SubTalker since 1996 and I was excited when Dave started BusTalk. I was good for a while, but many people showed up and my opinion is that there were some people with huge (and fragile) egos, chips on their shoulders and quite often they were tackless with their posts. I'm not at all suprised that Dave took this step. I've seen some wars on SubTalk, but many of you know that the BusTalk wars were far out of control. I have lost my temper a couple of times, but I'd simply stand my ground and not resort the name calling, profanity that been going on at BusTalk. I think one of our fellow Sub/BusTalkers has done a good job of warning people that "Crank is calling again" and/or "just because the phone rings doesn't mean you must answer it". I hope I got that correct. My opinion is that BusTalk had a great start, but in the last 6 months (maybe a bit more) it's gotten progressively worst and now it's just far past unacceptable. Of course people will disagree about many things, but I don't understand why those involved would lower themselves to that type of behavior.
Wayne
they could always change this to bus and subway talk. one site for people to talk about mass transit. this way, noone gets looney like they did at bus talk.
Unfortunately, the flamers would just migrate to SubTalk if the two were combined. SubTalk polices itself, that's why flame wars (as on BusTalk) don't seem to develop here.
Perhaps we subway fans are of a bit more mature breed ....
I always felt this way. It sure seemed like it a lot of the time. I have an interest in both (I'm really a 'mass-transit' buff), but many of the posts seemed like they were coming from the minds of 8-year-olds.
-Hank
Originally it was just SubTalk and sometimes we'd have bus related threads and things were far more civil in those days. There were some "incidents" here and there, but I'd say they didn't (or rarely) got out of hand.
Wayne
We have enough stable minds here at SubTalk to put the kibosh on any flame wars that break out. A few have in the past, but cooler heads always prevailed.
"Say What You Mean - Just Don't Say It Mean"
:EASY DOES IT:
Wayne
And if someone does say something which hits a raw nerve, before you respond in a manner which would merely pour more gasoline on the fire, take a deep breath, count to ten, and ask yourself, is it worth it?
02/11/2000
"Pins and needles, needles and pins, it's a happy man that grins"
Apologies to a certain bus driver, R.K.!!
Bill Newkirk
I think it's "...a happy man is a man that grins."
-Hank
Wayne, I didn't think that phrase up all by myself. For those with kids when the "Electric Company" was on public TV, they appreciate it as a spoof ... "who's that on the phone ... it's only CRANK calling again". I started using it in the hope that enough folks remembered the spoof so as not to fan the fires any higher then they already were.
But the point was still there ... CRANK is calling, don't pay any attention and maybe he/she will go call someone else.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
Thanks for the explanation. I just wanted to point that you (and other well meaning folks) have attempted to calm some of the mud slingers at BusTalk.
Wayne
Have any one seen R142 that post to testing on Drye Av Line & havn't seen R142 for 4 weeks now on Drye Av Line. It there a problem with R142 or something???
Peace Out
David Justiniano
PS: I see that Bus Talk have been lock up until furture notice & someone have open there stupied mouth about bull****. So hope they better kept there mouth shut & GROW UP!!!!!
I saw the R142 test train this past Monday around 8 a.m. It was on the new center test track in the Pelham Parkway station heading toward Dyre Ave. Amazingly quiet. I also saw it last week. This morning there was a specialized rail grinding train running on diesel (cough, cough). The new cars are on the way! Bye, Bye redbirds.
Thank Jeff, I will check it out my self tomorrow morning after 9am if R142 testing. Yep bye bye to Redbirds but i better take more pictures of Redbirds before they gone & i bet you Redbirds will be in ScarpYard @ 36st & 2nd Av soon.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Do you really really really wanna know?
Redbirds4Life!!
The R-142's are in the barn at 180th Street. I tried to catch them on the 9th and the 8th, but that damn rail grinding machine was on Y3 track burning up the rails.
For a moment there, I thought you meant that rail grinder was trying to imitate a train of R-10s. Now, THEY certainly could burn up the rails!
It came out on 2/2/00, saw it's shadow, and went back into the shp!
-Hank :)
So, that means six more decades before the Second Avenue subway is built? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Indeed!
-Hank :)
I'd say six more centuries is more like it.-)
The changes have mainly been behind the scenes except for ONE. Your old bookmarks will no longer work. You will have to change them to lead to metrocard.cjb.net or just load the new site manually (like with the preceding link) and make a new bookmark.
This will last a week. I'm trying to eradicate the bookmarks not leading through CJB.net.
Any LIRR engineers in here?
I like to ask if anyone knows about the cab signal displays on LIRR MUs. How do they display different wayside signals? Do they use different color lights or do they display position signals.
When the MAS changes and the bell rings, how is the new MAS displayed?
I remember seeing only one speedometer inside the cab. How does the engineer know the new speed?
The PRR cab signals work by sending coded pulses through the rails. There are 4 cab signal indications to conform with the 4 speeds of the NORAC speed signaling system. These speeds are Restricting/Slow (15 mph), Medium (30mph), Limited (45 mph) and Clear (linespeed). The 4 cab signals that go with these speeds are Restricting, Approach, Approach Medium and Clear. Although there are at least 14 different wayside signal aspects they all have one of the 4 basic speeds as a maximum. So for example Advance Approach gives you an Approach Medium in the cab and a Slow Clear will give you Restricting. Well if the LIRR has followed Amtrak, SEPTA and Conrail (and possibly NJT) they use a position light cab signal indicator. Now there are 2 types of PL cab signal indicator. There is the old 5 light kind that displays the 4 cab signal aspects with each having its own seperate mini-face (Approach Medium having 2). The signals are displayed as \ for Restricting, / for Approach, / over | for Approach Medium and | for Clear. I would suspect that the GP-38's and MP-15's have this old 5 face cab signal display. Newer trains use a 2 face cab signal display where more than one aspect can be shown on each face. The upper face has a | and / and the lower face has a | and \. All of the PL cab signals use a lines of 3 white lights excluding the Restricting \ which has 2.
As the train travels down the tracks it recieves coded pulses through the tracks as well as a base frequency that tells the train that it is in cab signal country. 180 pulses per min means Clear, 120 is Appraoch Medium, 75 is Approach and 0 is Restricting. As soon as the train passes the signal a CSS coder all the way down at the end of the block starts sending the appr. code. Within 1 or 2 seconds the train will recieve and interperate the code. The old indication disappears and the new indication blinks on. If the new indication is MORE RESTRICTIVE a whistle will go off. The engineer must acknowledge this whistle w/in 6 seconds. Also, if the train is exceeding the speed perscribed by the cab signal, the engineer has a certain amount of time to initiate a brake pipe reduction and another amount of time to bring the train to the correct speed. If this is not does the train goes into emergency.
I hope this helps. Also does anyone know what LIRR lines have the CSS. My old PRR CSS chart shows that the Port Washington Br, The Atlantic Branch, The Montauk Br. out to Babylon and the Main Line out to Mineola. Is this still correct? Also here's a little tidbit. On SEPTA MU's and I assume NJT MU's to there is a cab signal display at every Driver's station. The thing is that they can not be turned off so that in every "cab" the cab signals are changing and the whistle is going off all throughout the trip. I wonder if you can cancel the whistle at all of them too?
The cab signals on the LIRR and MetroNorth M-series MU
cars are just illuminated numbers with the authorized speed
posted above the speedometer. They don't use the traditional
PRR-style position signal.
Well then, learn something new every day. Do the Geeps, MP's and DM have a traditional aspect?
AFAIK, no. I don't think the LIRR *ever* used traditional PRR ones. The one in Seashore #4137 (MP-54, 1930) goes 15, 30, MAS. No speedo either.
The M-1s have either just a dot near the speed on the analog ones, or lighted nubers on the digital ones. The DE-30s have lit numbers too.
NJT MUs don't have position lights anymore, though Septa ones do. Amtrak stuff has it also - as did the GG-1.
What does MAS stand for and what does NJT MU's use? Colour lights? Also do NJT Locos have PL's?
Maximum Authorized Speed
I walked down Riverside on Monday on my way up to Marble Hill from Battery Park (and made it). I noticed that the built upon side of Riverside there are even addresses even though that's the odd side, and the addresses go by slowly enough to make me assume that the drive goes through all the addresses. Is this true? And someplace around 150th Street, the Drive goes to Queens style addresses, like 157-14 Riverside Drive. What's up with that? Is this the only place in Manhattan that does this? I think that all avenues should do this!
With other threads, this seems on-topic. Walking is a form of transit, and so feet are one of the many transit systems worldwide. This was collected on my full Manhattan walk. How long is Manhattan?
Battery to Marble Hill as the crow flies, it's about 13 miles. Walking alongside the Hudson adds about another half-mile.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Here was my route:
Battery Park
Greenwich Street
World Trade Center
West Broadway
Hudson Street
Ninth Avenue
Broadway
West 79th Street
Riverside Drive
Cathedral Parkway
Broadway
West 135th Street
Riverside Drive
West 162nd Street
Fort Washington Avenue
West 179th Street
Broadway
West 181st Street
Bennett Avenue
West 184th Street
181st Street subway elevator
Fort Washington Avenue
190st Street subway elevator
West 192nd Street
Broadway
191st Street subway tunnel and elevator (I think that those stations are so cool!)
St. Nicholas Avenue
Ft. George Hill
Dyckman Street
Broadway
Marble Hill Lane
Marble Hill Avenue
West 227th Street
Adrian Avenue
Terrace View Avenue
West 225th Street
"Bennett Avenue
West 184th Street
181st Street subway elevator
Fort Washington Avenue
190st Street subway elevator
West 192nd Street
Broadway
191st Street subway tunnel and elevator (I think that those stations are so cool!)"
I couldn't agree with you more. They're probably my favorites of all stations (the tunnel entrance to 190 is almost unnoticeable from the street).
Anyway, back to your original question on building numbers. I don't know of any other Manhattan streets or avenues which use the Queens-esque 157-14. Fifth Avenue has both even and odd numbers on the same side of the street when it runs alongside Central Park, though.
Chuck
Also Broadway opposite City Hall Park.
The even-and-odd on Riverside Drive was done to keep the house numbers artificially low, because (once upon a time) low numbers were perceived to enhance property values.
Also, RSD splits between 155th and 160th. The Drive itself veers inland (almost hitting Broadway at 158th), and Riverside Drive West takes over along the water.
To add to this and another posting: Riverside Drive house numbers are both odd and even because there is only one built up (east) curb -similar to Fifth Avenue and Central Park West between 59th and 110th Streets. Otherwise the sequence is like any other Manhattan avenue - #1 is at the south end (72d St) and numbers increase as you go north. The difference is that at every block the house increases to the next 10 in sequence - thus 10 Riverside Drive is at 73d St., 100 at 82d St., 320 at 104th St., 450 at 117th St., and so forth.
With most Manhattan avenue addresses, the trick is cancel the last figure, divide by 2, then add a key number that roughly corresponds to the cross street where the avenue begins. For Riverside Drive it is slightly different - cancel the last figure, then add 72. Thus, 320 Riverside Drive is at 104th St. (32 + 72 = 104).
I read in several places that Manhattan is thirteen miles long north to south. That seems about right, as Houston Street represents the beginning of the numbered street system, and the highest numbered street on Manhattan Island PROPER (not counting Marble Hill, which is on the main US continental land mass) is 218th. If a mile is twenty street blocks, the portion from Houston Street to Spuyten Duyvil accounts for eleven miles, the portion from Houston to the Battery two miles.
I once rode my bicycle the entire length of Broadway from the Bronx boundary between West 228th and 230th Streets to the Battery. It's a fascinating tour of the various Manhattan neighborhoods Broadway passes through. You see the bustling Latino shopping strips of Inwood and Washington Heights, the slowly gentrifying area around Columbia, the specialty food stores of the Yupper West Side, the business corridors of Midtown, the trendiness of Flatiron, funkiness of the Village, more trendiness in SoHo, the rapidly spreading Chinatown, the Civic Center, the eternally shadowy Financial District and finally the open water of the harbor. Phew!
Even more interesting, you're over one subway line or another almost the whole length of Broadway, except in Washington Heights, where there's a killer uphill for more than a mile from Dyckman to 181st.
-'1' and '9' from the Bronx line over the bridge to 217th Street.
-'A' from 207th Street to Arden Street.
-'1' and '9' from 168th Street to Times Square, joined by the '2' and '3' at 104th Street.
-'N' and 'R' from Times Square to Barclay Street.
-'4' and '5' from Vesey Street to the technical end of Broadway at Battery Place.
Getting back to another of your original questions, I believe Prospect Park West also has odd and even numbers on one side of the street from Grand Army Plaza to Bartel Pritchard Square.
Propsect Park Southwest also alternates even and odd numbers.
That's pretty cool. How long did the walk take? Did you stop at all?
Wayne
I started at about 8:30 AM. Finished at 1:30 I believe.
There's actually a reason I finally ended up using Riverside Drive, there are benches every so often. Anyway, it was NONSTOP to the 100s, when I came to tire slightly, so I sat down there, and at 125th, where I ate (also at 110th, but no sitting down), so I was ready to start again. Although by 140th, I pretty much started to count blocks again, like I did at 125th. At that point however, I was counting to 159th, my previous record, so at least if I gave up after that I'd still be better off than before (although when I went to 159th, it was from Chambers, not the Battery). When I got to Washington Heights, I took the elevators so I could climb up the hill on the east side (St. Nicholas), just to check out the area, including checking out how the 1/9 exits the portal at Dyckman. I think I went up the A elevators just for fun. I walked down Dyckman to Broadway because I didn't want to follow the el, I felt going back to Broadway would be nicer, and I thought I would look at Inwood Hill Park and the like, but I didn't want to climb. Even though I didn't want to climb, I actually entered Marble Hill (to take a look around) through Marble Hill Lane, which is a stairway between B'way and MH Avenue. I want to check it out more, especially the empty border cliff areas, but I was pretty much done at that point. I entered the 1 at 225th Station.
Intersting tale: I tell time through my telephone, so at one point I didn't feel comfortable taking it out (I had never been through Inwood on street level, except for a corner near Fort Tryon Park), so I went in the subway to check out the time.
A question about Riverside Drive to the readers of this thread. My impression is that the northbound roadway of the Henry Hudson Parkway between (roughly) the GWB and Dyckman Street is (or, rather, was) Riverside Drive. Is my impression correct? That would explain why the NB roadway is curvy while the SB remains relatively straight; it would also account for that odd monument-type thing with columns on the left just north of the GWB. (What on earth is that thing? I've always wanted to stop there -- there's a nice parking area on the left -- but on the rare occasion I'm up there it comes up suddenly and I'm invariably in the right lane.)
I live on Riverside Dr. and am currently working on the new New York City base map sponsored by NYC DEP.
Like 5th Av. opposite Central Park, and Central Park West, only one side of Riverside Dr. is defined for building. Thus the numbers increase at 10 per block in place of the usual 20. Riverside Dr. is not defined from St. Clair Pl. (129th St) to 134th St. It runs over a viaduct there and 12th Av. is below it, with its own numbers continuing as if it ran the distance from 59th St. to 129th St. At 134th St the numbers resume uninterrupted (divide by 10 and add 72 below 129th St, divide by 10 and add 77 above 134th St - #567 and up).
The portion of Riverside Dr. from 158th St. up is renamed from an older boulevard (name unknown to me), so its numbers do not follow the above. This boulevard included Edward M. Morgan Pl. at 157th St. and Broadway.
The Henry Hudson Pkwy running northbound from the George Washington Bridge to the Dyckman St. exit is technically Riverside Dr. I am not sure about the numbers on the portion from there to the intersection of Broadway and Dyckman St.
Riverside Dr. W. from about 155th to 161st Sts, is a street which was added long after the original 1811 city plan. It thus uses Queens-style addresses, as does the F.D.R. Drive. I think those are the only two streets in Manhattan to do that.
I'm not surprised to hear that lower house numbers added property value. Addresses on the avenues are computed by dividing by 20 and adding a key number. The key number may be the street where the avenue begins, but it is usually slightly higher because many of the avenues do stretch out the first hundred.
If you are interested, I can give information on the numbering of the other boroughs.
Enjoy!
Bob Sklar
So does this mean that eventually Riverside returns to sequentuality? How is the section near Dyckman and Broadway numbered (I just wanted to get to the end of Manhattan and not stop to see ANYTHING!). And where you have Riverside West, standard Riverside is numbered normally? I think the RS West addresses were normal, there was even a bus stop sign that said: Riverside Drive and (insert cross street based address) Riverside Drive.
Is the NJ transit Booton line abandoned?
NJT connected the Monclair branch with I think the Morris Essex branch several years ago. I heard it was going to be used for light rail service. Had the stations alone the line torn down? What has NJT been using the line for?
No, it is not abandonned. It is still a busy weekday commuter rail line. Over the past few years the Boonton line has been extended past Netcog to Hackettstown. The Montclair Branch has always been part of the M&E division and it was electrified by the DL&W in the 30's. Because both the Montclair Branch and the Boonton Line are not the bussiest of lines they are planning to connect the Boonton line to the Montclair Branch, electrify the whole sh'bang and abandon the Boonton line from Montclair to Bergen. This way the Boonton line will be open to Mid-Town direct service and ridership will increase. However there has been a lot of FlaK from residents on the lower part of the Boonton line so it may not be abandonned after all.
This coming (11 &12) weekend the R-142A's will probably be testing on the Flushing Line. (remember things can change) The test will run between midnight and 5am on Sunday. As I understand, there is a GO for this move. If and when I get it, I will post further information.
im trying to find out why www.nycsubway.org not using the bullets sign any more? i really like the bullets sign even the old bullets sign in the past too. please let me know what happen to bullets or did dave pirmann got rid of bullets sign?
If you're looking for the gifs of the letters in the circles, I got rid of them. I wasn't using them for anything and they were just taking up space. If you wanted them you had ample time to download them. Since I'm a nice guy I'll zip them up and put them in the ftp area (ftp://nycsubway.org/pub/subway/misc/bullets.zip)
-Dave
Good idea Dave.
From what I have learned recently, the subway route signage (aka letters/numbers in the colored circles) are infact copyrighted by the MTA and are supposed to be used only with permission.
Doug aka BMTman
If you want ACTIVE bullets, visit: metrocard.cjb.net.
I wrote this yesterday while daydreaming at school
Two subway routes diverged in a yellow station,
and sorry i could not travel both,
and be one passenger, long i stood
and looked down one as far as i could,
to where it bent into the underground.
both that minuite equally lay
in trash no rat had troden black,
yet, i'll save one for another day
but knowing how way leads on to way
i doubt that i should ever come back
and took the other as just as fair
for having perhaps the better claim,
for it was lit, and wanted wear
yet, as for the train passing there
had worn them really about the same
i shall be telling this with a sigh
somewhere ages and ages hence
two routes diverged in New York, and i
i took the route less traveled by
and that has made me late for work
Beautiful!!! :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Very Nice!!
Now THAT's what SubTalk truly needs - a resident Poet In Motion!
Hey that was really great. I think Robert Frost would be happy to read your poem.
If I am not mistaken, you are the young man who heard the horn of a mysterious train in the vicinity of your school a couple of months ago. Keep on listening to the beat of your own drum, or to the passing whistle of an Amtrak train, but make sure you do your homework and pass your tests so that you can get out of that school.
And remember, it's not called cheating if you don't get caught.
This is great. I just hope you did that while in English lit. and hopefully not gymn. Could be dangerous on a trampoleen.
Joe C
The yellow station in question would be Van Wyck-Briarwood, perhaps...
Wayne
I was thinking more of a traviler at 34th St. trying to get to 39th St. Queens on the N (yellow) but insted takeing the Q uptown were he stops short of his destation. makeing him late for work
02/11/2000
Since you have a gift of being a poet, did you try approaching the TA and have your poetry published on those "Poetry in Motion" car cards we see on the subways?
Then we can look up and say, "A SubTalker! gee, he's one of us!"
Bill Newkirk
In days of old, and knights were bold
and toilets were never invented.
They laid down their load,in the middle of the road,
and went away contented.
(an old poem proudly displayed in some public restroom)
I've seen one skell do this on the #2 train (no pun intended). PHEW!
wayne :o>
You should leave BusTalk as it is right now, a reminder of what happens when people step over the bounds. With some name changes and word changes i think it would make a strong point. but that's just my oppinion.
(P.S. I spelled Robert Frost last name Fost, sorry)
I haven't checked BusTalk that often but when I've been there, it's was always less civilized than SubTalk.
In general, the people who use this forum have done so for quite some time and have seen how far things can get out of hand. They respect the fact that someone, who gets no other gain from spending money keeping this forum and this site online other than sharing something he enjoys with others who do, goes through the effort to keep it running and he certainly shouldn't have to worry that every few weeks a new batch of ignorant loudmouths will make life difficult for him and make us worry the forum we enjoy so much may be taken away.
I certainly needn't tell regulars but to those of you who get your kicks flaming people on subjects you clearly have ABSOLUTELY no knowledge on, turn off your computer, cancel your internet service and give your computer to someone with the brains and the courtesy to use it like an evolved human being.
And you know who you are.
If suspension of BusTalk service becomes permanent,
perhaps we could convert the property to
TrolleyTalk. Put up some wires and electrify the
entire message board. No more diesel fumes or
diesel fumers. Undo the damage done by National
City Lines and General Motors when they set about
destroying the trolley system. TrolleyTalk would be
restricted to talk about Brill, Peter Witt, PCC's,
Boeing LRV (for laughs), trolley buses, Mack buses,
and Greyhound buses as a special dispensation for
me.
Lest we become too smug on SubTalk about our higher
sense of propriety, we have our own set of
malcontents and wackos on this site ( I, myself,
being CEO of the wacko division. ) If things got
out of hand here, SubTalk might become SteamTalk or
even HorseTalk. ( I thought I would throw in
HorseTalk to see if the Sarge was paying attention.
These would carriage and coach horses, Jeff, not
racing horses.)
Seriously, I feel the problems at BusTalk have given
me another opportunity to realize what an important
and valuable resource these message boards are to
me.
I know the ta does a goos job cleaning the platforms and stations, but what can they do about the tracks themselves? On the northbound platform(express track) at Brighton beach, garbage is all over the tracks. You even see it on the northobund express track at Church Avenue and at 34th Street. Does the TA ever clean the garbage off the tracks(i know asking to get graffiti off walls in the tunnels is too much to ask, but what about the garbage. could be dangerous if not cleaned up.
I found the Pitkin Avenue IND stations atrocious. 50th/Rock-Center was pretty bad too as was the Queens Blvd. line. Maybe it's something with the IND.
I know the TA does a good job cleaning the platforms and stations, but what can they do about the tracks themselves? On the northbound platform(express track) at Brighton beach, garbage is all over the tracks. You even see it on the northobund express track at Church Avenue and at 34th Street. Does the TA ever clean the garbage off the tracks(i know asking to get graffiti off walls in the tunnels is too much to ask, but what about the garbage. could be dangerous if not cleaned up.
I believe that the TA does have at least 1 track cleaning vehical. I saw it once about 5 years ago approching Ely Ave from the tunnel. I can't tell you any more about it just that it ws very loud and has extreamly bright headlights... but every once in a while the track beds do look like they have been cleaned..
Yes, the TA does clean the tracks (or did, when I worked there). Somewhere I recall a figure of nine tons of trash per day removed. In the 1980s, they were experimenting with a hi-rail vacuum truck like those used to clean out storm sewers. It would proceed along at walking speed, with a couple of workmen swinging two hoses back and forth to get the garbage.
They probably must have snagged a bunch of rats on their jaunts. The place is crawling with them, I've been told. I saw a gigantic one when I was riding the #3 train last summer on, I believe it was, Utica Avenue. It went scurrying right by me like I wasn't there. It was a disgusting site, but I think what's more disgusting are a pack of asses dumping debris on the tracks. It shows a pig-like attitude and a lack of respect for the subway system and its riders. I wish there would be massive fines for such behavior. There's no reason for this happening. BTW, I was very much aware that many of the stations in the cut section of the Sea Beach were overflowing with garbage. Watch that guys.
02/11/2000
Are you talking about that new vacuum train that was built in France? I understand it's quite effective.
Bill Newkirk
I heard it sucks :-)
They're ordering another one, BTW.
David
OK, that's worth a rim shot.
The TA does have a vehicle to clean the tracks (how good a job it does is anybody's guess). Due to the fact that I ride at "odd" hours I have seen it many times. It is called VAC-TRAC it is big and yellow and about 5 car lengths long. (At least on the B division) I have seen it many times around 3 / 4 am around 125 st. from my seat on the "D" train.
Peace,
Andee
How do i get them to clean tracks near my station(at Brighton beach). I read somewhere that track fires occur because of garbage on the tracks, and the commute would be bad if this happened.
That's the "vacuum train" that was ordered before I left the TA in 1987. I've never actually seen it, although I did see an earlier (unsuccessful) version rusting away in Westchester Yard in 1983. It's probably scrapped by now.
Of course, if New Yorkers didn't toss trash on the tracks, NYCT would not need a vacuum train.
Just out of curiousity. Why has it taken so long to repair on the manhattan bridge? They closed the Williamsburg Bridge for a few months to do work, and the result was afull repair of the bridge and tracks(it even looks better than it did before).
Since 1986, the bridge has been worked on, while we customers on the B,D,M,N,Q and R are affected by this. Will the bridge EVER be reublit, or why didn't those who began to reapir wait so long? They could have done what they do when they repair stations or sesclators. For each day they are behind schedule, they are fined. They get a bonus if the work is done earlier. If this was tue, "N" service would have been back long ago.
The problem with this bridge isn't easily fixed. The design flaw in the bridges placement of train tracks requires that the entire bridge be stiffened.
Remember, every time a train crosses the bridge, the support beams crack a little more. I've become used to saying a quick prayer every time I emerge from the tunnel.
The problem with this bridge isn't easily fixed. The design flaw in the bridges placement of train tracks requires that the entire
bridge be stiffened.
I prescribe for Manny B, A Gigantic Viagra pill, maybe that sucker would stiffen Manny B Up.
DOUBLE RIM SHOT!!!!!
I think dressing up the Brooklyn Bridge in a spandex miniskirt might also work.
02/11/2000
Well the Viagra pill is blue in color and so is some of the Manny B! Coincidence? Does this mean when the south side reopens, we'll experience a HARD ride?
Bill Newkirk
Or a STIFF ride? Rim shot!!
OK, maybe we should quit while we're ahead.
The answer my friend, is:
a) Blowing in the wind
b) On the FAQ Page
c) a & b
Answer: C.
That's a sticky, tricky question.....
But, I think based on my readings, the short story is that the Williamsburgh Bridge was in better shape in the 80s than the Man Br., so there was a bit more to work with. And in essence, due to the way the MB was constructed and utilized, it continually defied efforts to stabilize and repair it. There were also contractor disputes.
I guess you'd have to say that repairing the MB is more a process, whereas repairing the WB is more a task.
Opinions on the issue seem to run fairly strong.....(!)
I know that this post leans more towards it being a bus question, but since BusTalk is currently down, I thought I'd post it here. Please don't blast this question because it's balanced towards buses.
Has anyone noticed at the Woodhaven Boulevard station on the Queens Blvd IND line that the signs that point to buses at each exit refer to a route called the B59? Three questions:
1. Who's responsible for subway signage?
2. Why haven't they changed the signs to reflect the true route, Q59?
3. How long has it been since the route called B59 renamed Q59? In other words, what was the date when it happened?
R.M. While I cannot give you an exact date I can tell you that the 1988 Brooklyn Bus Map shows the B59. The 1990 Map shows the Q59. Same route. I believe that it was changed because most of the route is in Queens.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Most of the Bklyn bus routes that runs in Queens were changed to Queens the day the Archer Ave Subway opened, which was in 1989. Here is a list:
B22=Q24
B53=Q54
B55=Q55
B56=Q56
B58=Q58
B59=Q59
I think I covered them all........
3TM
RIP BIG PUN and Derrick Thomas
No, that was on December 11, 1988.
I believe also at the same time the Richmond Hill and Metro Ave buses were also changed from "B" to "Q" designations. This was, I was told, because of pressure from Claire Shulman (Queens parochialism, perhaps justified depending on your opinion of such things).
When I was a kid we had our zip code changed from 112__ to 113__ for the same reason. Supposedly lower car insurance rates, but parochialsim nonetheless.
Sorry to change the header so early in the thread (and to something that is not even strictly transit-related, to boot). But, the following statement really jumped out at me:
"When I was a kid we had our zip code changed from 112__ to 113__..."
Whoa!! Really?? When was this? This fascinates me, because, today, the 112__ area code is Brooklyn and the 113__ is Queens (specifically Flushing).
So, did that change of zip code actually mean that your neighborhood (I am guessing Ridgewood) went from being part of Brooklyn to being part of Queens? (Today, there are parts of Ridgewood in each borough: Queens-11385, and Brooklyn-11237.)
Or, put another way, does this mean that the Brooklyn-Queens border was moved at one time?
Even though I have never heard of the border being moved, and even though not a single person of the many whom I have asked about this can recall such an event, there are two nagging pieces of evidence which have always made me wonder. (Actually, there are now three, if you include Conrad's post.)
The first piece of evidence is an advertisement which was painted on the side of a building on the south side of 101st Ave. in Ozone Park, between 92nd and 93rd Sts.
This ad, which I was able to see clearly from the window of the apartment I was living in at the time (and which, I believe, was for AC-Delco auto parts), had one curious part to it -- the address. At the bottom of the ad, there was painted in big white letters: "65-21 MYRTLE AVE., BKLYN". However, that address is located maybe a dozen blocks east from the spot where Myrtle Ave. actually crosses into Brooklyn, at Wycoff Ave.
(By the way, I think that this ad was NOT painted over, but was instead covered up by a solid billboard. So, with some luck, it may become visible again one day.)
The second piece of "evidence" is much less concrete, but, it has nevertheless been seared into my mind by sheer dint of repetition.
Phil Rizzuto -- the beloved "Scooter", who was Yankee shortstop from the early 1940s until 1956, and then an announcer for them for the next 40 years -- would frequently mention on the air that he had gone to Richmond Hill H.S. when he was a kid. And, just about every time he mentioned this, he would also throw in the comment that, at that time, Richmond Hill H.S. was located in Brooklyn!
Is this to be believed? Richmond Hill H.S. on 114th St., while the Brooklyn-Queens line is around 75th St. Unless the school was housed in a completely different building during Scooter's H.S. days (which would have been in the late 1930s), I am tempted to assume that his memory is a little foggy on this. But, like I said before, I have some nagging doubts.
Add to all of this Conrad's statement about his neighborhood's changing of zip codes, and my curiosity becomes overwhelming!
So, I hope that someone can give me some history on this vexing question.
In the meantime, here are two trivia questions concerning zip codes in NYC:
1. What is the only place in NYC without a zip code?
2. What is the only zip code which occurs in more than one borough?
Ferdinand Cesarano
1. Don't know
2. One block of Linden Street between Wyckoff and St. Nicholas has the 11385 ZIP code even though it's in Brooklyn.
Wayne
"2. What is the only zip code which occurs in more than one borough?"
"2. One block of Linden Street between Wyckoff and St. Nicholas has the 11385 ZIP code even though it's in Brooklyn."
Well, that's not the one I had in mind, but you gotta give it to him! If I were Regis, I'd owe Mr. SlantR40 some money right now!
Wayne is correct. At that point on the border, the borough line and the zip code boundary are not in perfect agreement, leading to that anomaly on Linden St. (located in Bklyn w/ Queens zip), as well as to the reciprical one on neighboring Grove St. (located in Queens w/ Bklyn zip) between Cypress and St. Nicholas Aves. So, both of Ridgewood's zip codes actually occur in both Brooklyn and Queens.
So, the multi-borough zip code that I was thinking of just is clearly not the ONLY one. But, I won't reveal the one I had in mind just yet. I bet that someone will get it.
Ferdinand Cesarano
There is always Marble Hill, which is still officially part of Manhattan but is probably served by the Kingsbridge Post office. That little anomly cost me an hour just last week. Some tables for the Unified Bulk Program EIS came back with R5 zoning in Manhattan Community District 8 (ie. the Upper East Side). It was Marble Hill, part of Bronx Community District 8, but with a Manhattan borough code. I had to change a bunch of tables, with a bunch of percentages, then adjust the write ups. Yikes!
For many years, the border of Brooklyn and Queens was thought of as the border between us and them. Brooklyn has become relatively richer since then, Queens relatively poorer.
"There is always Marble Hill, which is still officially part of Manhattan but is probably served by the Kingsbridge Post office."
Bingo! (The zip is 10463, by the way.)
Also, the place with no zip code is Central Park.
All of the other parks are in one zip code zone or another; some even have zip boundaries running through them. But, if you look at a postal map of Manhattan, you will see that the all of the zip code zones end at the edge of Central Park.
Ferdinand Cesarano
How About Gov, Liberty and Ellis Island. do they have Zip Codes??
I suspect Gov., Liberty and Ellis island all have zip codes, but not the standard New York zips. Probably some kind of government/military zip code IDs. (That would also apply to Floyd Bennett Field, Fort Tilden and Fort Wadsworth areas of Brooklyn/Queens/Staten Island)
Doug aka BMTman
Maybe those examples are different, but as somebody who grew up a military brat, I can say that every base I've lived on has always had a ZIP code that is consistent with the surrounding area.
-- David
Chicago, IL
There's one other area in Manhattan without a ZIP code - the United Nations. Indeed, it has its own postal system.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would have to say you gave the only correct answer as the UN is technically not part of the US but international territory so they would not be part of the US Postal Service.
They even have their own Post Office and stamps
I work at the UN. We use the zip 10017.
-- Kirk
That's not true, I know that those areas use the ZIP codes from surrounding area, these are 11234, 11695 and 10304.
All APO/FPO zips (and New Jersey, and all of the New England states) are '0' zips, that is, the first digit is a 0. With APO/FPO, the second digit is ALSO '0'. Now look at the envelope that came with your tax papers. See that ZIP? Holtsville, NY 00501! The rest of Holtsville is 11742.
-Hank
So what? Prospect Park in Brooklyn doesn't have a ZIP code. Neither does Marine Park. I'm sure there are other parks with this pattern.
Years ago, the area known as Ridgewood was part in Brooklyn and part in Queens. However the Ridgewood Post Office was in Brooklyn, which is why all of Ridgewood had Brooklyn Zip codes, 11227 and 11237. As the neighborhood changed in the 1960's the residents on the Queens side wanted a Queens Zip code which they got around 1972, 11385 (and yes my car insurance premiums did go down!) Nowadays, the part of Ridgewood that was in Brooklyn is considered Bushwick.
I see. So, 11227 became 11385. Thanks for the info. According to what I've been able to find, there seems to no longer be a 11227 zone in Brooklyn at all anymore.
Now, are we talking about the area in Ridgewood west of Forest Ave. where they have those weird addresses? If so, do you know how that address phenomenon came to be?
(The addresses there have dashes like ordinary Queens addresses, but they are not continuous with the surrounding numbers in either borough.)
Also, you say that the Ridgewood post office was in Brooklyn. Is that the same one that is on Hart St. and Wyckoff Ave. today? Also, does this mean that today's Ridgewood (Queens) post office at Hancock St. and Myrtle Ave. is new (after 1972)?
Ferdinand Cesarano
As far as I know 11227 no longer exists. (By the way, Glendale, which is clearly all in Queens, also used to be 11227)
The Ridgewood post office I was talking about was on Wyckoff near Cornelia - looking at my Hagstroms, it was on the Queens side of the street!
The current Ridgewood 11385 post office is located at Myrtle Ave. and Decatur St. (formerly the location of the Glenwood Bowling Alley, and before that, the Glenwood Theater)
Transit angle: Ridgewood, Glendale, Woodhaven etc. developed as extentions of Brooklyn, and were connected to Manhattan through Brooklyn -- by streetcar or El -- at a point when most employment was located south of 14th Street.
The rest of Queens developed later, out from Midtown, along transit routes that did not pass through Brooklyn.
I guess after 1950, when the newer parts of Queens became richer than Brooklyn, the Brooklyn-connected neighborhoods sought to distance themsevles from their roots, and routes.
[As the neighborhood changed in the 1960's the residents on the Queens side wanted a Queens Zip code which they got around 1972, 11385 (and yes my car insurance premiums did go down!)]
According to the version I've heard, it was precisely because of car insurance premiums that Ridgewood residents sought the zip code change.
I believe the ZIP code change came some time in the early or mid-70s. No border change, just a ZIP code change. It appears (having read through the thread) that some folks here are more knowledgeable on this than I, so I'll defer to them.
As a local resident though, I can comment that there was some negative feeling and fear in the community then. Arson-for-profit was quite a problem in the Brooklyn section of Ridgewood, and the older German folks (many 1st generation immigrants) were aging. Their children mostly moved east to Glendale or Middle Village, or Long Island. Few took over the 2 or 3 family houses that their parents kept so well. I recall as a child (I spoke German fluently then but have since lost it) my mom spoke exclusively German with the neighbors and with all the local shopkeepers. Boy, could I use a dose of Karl Ehmer now!
Today the neighborhood has changed drastically. Many recent eastern european immigrants mixed in with some Italian-Americans and some Asians too. But the neighborhood that seemed "next to go" and was redlined for 20 years still seems strong and safe.
Auto ownership has skyrocketed too. I recall as a kid I used to play baseball in the street in front of my house, often the only car in evidence was my neighbor's '71 Dodge Dart. Today you couldn't park a tricycle on my old street (Catalpa Ave) after 6PM.
Another factor (as I heard) that destabilized the community was that the TA was then constantly talking about either removing or partially closing the Myrtle Avenue El. Luckily they never did it, but busing in the off hours is always on the top ten cuts list when funding is tight. The working folks in the area sure would miss that transit connection, humble though it may be at times.
BTW, I bowled as a kid at the old Glenwood Bowl, site of the current post office on Myrtle Ave at Decatur Street. A post yesterday mentioned it - it brough back memories!
Karl Ehmer's - we had one outside of Poughkeepsie, it may still be there. Mother, with her Pennsylvania upbringing, went there occasionally; Dad would never darken the door since they kept the beef, cheese, and pork in the same case.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[As a local resident though, I can comment that there was some negative feeling and fear in the community then. Arson-for-profit was quite a problem in the Brooklyn section of Ridgewood, and the older German folks (many 1st generation immigrants) were aging. Their children mostly moved east to Glendale or Middle Village, or Long Island. Few took over the 2 or 3 family houses that their parents kept so well. I recall as a child (I spoke German fluently then but have since lost it) my mom spoke exclusively German with the neighbors and with all the local shopkeepers. Boy, could I use a dose of Karl Ehmer now!
Today the neighborhood has changed drastically. Many recent eastern european immigrants mixed in with some Italian-Americans and some Asians too. But the neighborhood that seemed "next to go" and was redlined for 20 years still seems strong and safe.]
It's sort of ironic from a transit viewpoint that Ridgewood has avoided collapse. As you probably know, back in the 1970's or thereabouts, there was a plan to run a "super-express" into SE Queens using, in part, the LIRR's lower Montauk line through Glendale. Opposition from Glendale residents was one of the reasons why nothing ever became of this plan. They feared that their neighborhood was in a precarious position, with the urban squalor of Bushwick not far away. Many Glendale residents expected Ridgewood to be the next 'hood to fall, which would leave their area right on the front lines. Given all these (not entirely unreasonable) worries, few people in Glendale wanted new subway service because of the risk, however minor, that it would spread urban decay.
As you noted, things didn't work out as planned. Ridgewood has remained in good condition, so Glendale still has a safe buffer zone between itself and Bushwick. Had Glendale's residents known 25 years ago that urban decay in fact wasn't spreading, it's possible that they would have accepted the super-express idea, or at least not have opposed it so vehemently, and today it might be running.
Also note that several zip codes overlap the border between the city and Nassau County. Bellerose (11426) covers Queens, the incorporated village by the same name in Nassau and a small unincorporated part of Nassau that straddles the Cross Island between Jamericho Avpike and the LIRR main line tracks.
Floral Park has two zip codes that answer to the Nassau postmaster. Strangely, two of them, 11004 and 11005 and their post offices, are entirely in Queens, the latter dedicated to North Shore Towers. Floral Park 11001 and New Hyde Park 11040 also lie partially in Queens. I've known people who lived in the Queens part of all of these zip codes who would get summoned for jury duty in Mineola.
As a side note, the 'L' DOES run in and serve Queens, although every transit map limits its existence to Manhattan and Brooklyn. It's half in each borough under Wyckoff Avenue between Gates Avenue and George Street, where the borough line bisects it, and then completely in Queens along Wyckoff from George to Cooper Street and on around the curve to the portal, where it re-enters Brooklyn.
The stations at Myrtle Avenue and Halsey Street are shared by both boroughs, just as Eldert(s) Lane on the 'J'/'Z' are.
That change was timed with the opening of the Archer Avenue extension. Six Brooklyn-Division routes and all Queens-Division A-routes were given new numbers, plus several others were rerouted or extended, as follows:
B22.... Q24 (extended to 171 Street)
B53.... Q54
B55.... Q55 (entirely in Queens)
B56.... Q56
B58.... Q58 (entirely in Queens)
B59.... Q59
Q3A.... Q83 (rerouted via Archer/Parsons station)
Q4A.... Q84 (rerouted to Archer)
Q85 (rerouted to Archer; had already been created from Q5A, Q5AB)
Q12A... Q79
Q17.... (extended to Merrick/Archer)
Q17A... Q30 (extended to Archer/Sutphin)
Q31.... (extended to Archer/Sutphin)
Q44A... Q46
Q44FS.. Q20
Q44VP.. Q74
That always bugged me that many routes with a 'B' prefix actually ran mostly or entirely in Queens. The B53 (now Q54), 55 and 58 run out of the Fresh Pond depot, which while located in Queens, fell under the jurisdiction of the Brooklyn bus division.
On the other hand, the B22 (now Q24) and 56 have 'Q' prefixes, but run out of the East New York depot, which is clearly in Brooklyn.
The Kingsbridge depot is on the very fringe of Manhattan and runs routes with both 'M' and 'BX' designations. I think this was always the case, even before the TA started re-lettering routes to reflect the dominant borough of operation.
I don't think thye do it based on the depot location, but instead on where the bus has most of its route.
That always bugged me that many routes with a 'B' prefix actually ran mostly or entirely in Queens.
The B22, B53, B55, B56, B58 and B59 were all originally B&Q Transit (BMT) trolley lines. That may more to do with their "B" designation than their depot.
I have a question: Does the L train runs in Queens? I thought that the Halsey St Station was in Queens. It looks like the L runs into Queens for a minute then runs back into Bklyn. Clarification please??????
3TM
The L does run through Queens between Halsey St and Wilson Av. Halsey St Station looks like its in Brooklyn but the eastern ends of the platform may extend into Queens.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That makes the Canarsie line of my high school and dating days a 3 boro line...Manhattan, Brooklyn & Queens, just like some of its "A" division cousins,the 2,3,4,5.
The Manhattan-bound platform of Halsey Street would lie wholly within Queens, as would the northeast quarter of the Myrtle Avenue station platform, if the borough line goes down the centre of Wyckoff Avenue as my map says it does.
Wayne
When did NYCTA officially stop calling motormen motormen, and start calling them operators?
I believe the civil service exam dated 1979 was the last official exam for motormen. Subsequent exams beginning 1981 used the gender friendly name.
Last week, I rode the B train coming back over the Manhattan Bridge from Brooklyn, and I was surprised to pass by a 6th Avenue Express train of R-32 and R-38b cars. It was either a B, D or Q train. Why are those cars running on the 6th Avenue Express trains? Most of the 6th Avenue trains should have the R-40s, R-68s and R-68As.
James Li
Refugee's from the "C" train. It was most likely operating as a "B" train.
Peace,
Andee
I was on an R-38 operating as a B during the Monday P.M. rush....
I wonder how fast it went along 4th Ave....
Well, it was a Monday afternoon, so I was fast asleep!
The B line has borrowed some of the C line's R38's for supplemental service during the C outage. There are R38's on the E as well.
i saw a r-40 slant on the "B" line going to manhattan on monday. is the "B" line switching cars again with the "Q" or is a one shot deal?
Yeah, I saw that train also was wondering the same thing.
Peace,
Andee
No car switch is underway. The R68 is on the B to stay.
will they ever put r38 or r33 to the Q or the R40's that they have now will be there once the 63rd street extension to queens is completed?
Since no plan for the 63rd. St connection has been finalized, there's no way to answer that question. R38's, because they are assigned to the Pitkin yard, will most likely spend the rest of their lives on the A and C lines.
R33 is an IRT car.
Just in time of the MC Swap meet this Saturday, today is the day that a lot of the MC School Passes expire. I've got a few 1/2 Fare & Free green as well as a few of the orange one.
Intersting side bar, since these are used by kids for a number of MONTHS they're a good barometer of how MCs of this type hold up under lots of use by a group that probally isn't to careful with them (where they store them & how they use them). Most I've seen aren't in too good a shape, collector & retailer wise.
Mr t__:^)
I resent that. I have 14 MetroCards that i got from friends at my school, to add to my collection of 76 MC's that i've been colection since 94'. All of the MC's that i get are in perfect shape.
[I resent that. ... All of the MC's that i get are in perfect shape.]
OK, objection to my statement duly noted. I will counter that all the school cards in MY collection are in poor shape ... I just assumed ... and forgot what happens when you assume based on a small sample. I now should be able to figure out that the cards I got before probally didn't work & that's why they were left behind ... gee isn't hindsight great ?
Mr t__:^)
Dave has just posted my write-up of the Bangkok Mass Transit System. Enjoy!
Actually, the write-up missed the single most remarkable fact about the BTS: it's a private, for-profit operation. A local corporation called the Tanayong Group financed construction of the line entirely from private sources, and expects to make a profit running it. The concrete structure was built by Italian-Thai Constructors, and the trains, track, power distribution, communications, signals, and control center were supplied by Siemens and a number of subcontractors on a turnkey, "one price" basis. Siemens will also maintain the system for the first five years under another fixed-price contract, and will also be available to provide advice and assistance on operations.
Operations training is being handled by a number of expat Brits from Hongkong, plus a couple of senior people recruited from Singapore MRT. This is the first rapid transit system in Bangkok, so training is important. For example, it had to be explained to the drivers that it was not appropriate to stop their trains and exchange pleasantries when they saw each other out on the line.
The system is capable of operation on a 2:30 headway, although the initial schedule will have headways of about 5 minutes until patronage builds. Fare collection is by Cubic Corp., with "swipe" magnetic card similar to what is used in New York.
Escalators are being retrofitted to the stations. The reason they were not specified originally is that it was feared they would take up too much space on the sidewalks.
The system is entirely elevated, and looks like a modern concrete version of the CTA's Loop elevated. Great views of Bangkok from the trains. Patronage is eventually expected to be 600,000 per day.
There is a second, underground line being constructed by the Bangkok Metropolitan Authority (local government), expected to be in service in a couple of years, that connects at three points with BTS. No through fares, though, and no through bus/rail fares either (BMA operates a bus system which carries six million people per day).
IT's a beautiful system, and if it can actually make a profit, it will be a lesson for those of us in the transportation business.
Excellent additions, thank you! I hope to visit again within the next year to get more pictures see the progress on the subway.
Hmm. A privately-owned transit system with elevated lines opens to the public, followed some time later by a local-government-owned subway system, with two separate fares for people transfering between the two systems. Sounds familiar, no? (^:
Does that mean there will be Unification in '40? Mixing the BTS sheep and the BMA goats, to paraphrase the New York Times. (^;
(2040, that is.)
(Entirely privately run)
Randolph, you missed the discussion of de-unification and the "snobway." My suggestion was the way to get the Second Avenue subway built was on a design, build, permit to operate for 49 year basis, just like the orignial subway. The snobway would be highly automated from the start and express-bus priced, so it could cover part of its cost of construction. That, plus avoiding the hellish red tape that binds the public sector, should cut the initial public outlay way down.
The snobway would be FRA compatible and share trackage with the commuter railroads rather than the subway. It would take over some of the LIRR routes in the city. Transfers to the subway would be allowed on the same basis as for express buses -- the MTA would operate the fare collection system, and the snobway and subway would split the fare.
Only way to get it done.
I remember them building it when I was there 2 years ago, I forgot was it a 3rd rail system or overhead pantograph system, heavy or light rail?
It's heavy rail, third rail 700 VDC, but the trains are relatively small -- six cars, Chicago EL- or PATH-sized cars, in three car articulated units.
More to the point, on the issue of private construction operation addressed by another post: as I'm sure you know, there is a growing trend toward DBOM (design, build, operate, maintain), where the contract goes to the guy who asks for the smallest subsidy for a set period of years. That's basically what the Bangkok operation is, except it's supposed to make a profit.
Premium service (or premium-priced service) is a different but related issue. Paris has used a strategy for years in which there are "first class" subway cars, identical to the others except for their paint job and a guard to make sure you pay the premium fare. It's a sort of congestion toll; you can ride in a sardine can, or pay more money and ride (in the same type of car) in relative comfort.
When I was working with NYCT in the 80s, there was discussion of premium-priced services. The public reaction was generally of the "snobway" variety. Yes, I did miss the discussion, but I'm familiar with the issues (I'm new to newsgroups, though).
Hi Todd:
I'm assuming (?) you saw the article in METRO, January 2000, on Bangkok.
It must be interesting to live in a city where taxicabs are meterless (all fares are negotiable) and you can choose your own house number. To say nothing of the legendary debauchery.
The new Skytrain system will not be cheap! METRO said the fares will range from 26 cents to $1.05, a fortune in a country as impoverished as Thailand. Basic (un-air conditioned) bus fares are about 8-9 cents.
Enjoy!
CONRAD
How many people here traveled on the Metrolink light rail in St. Louis? If you rode it, what did you think of it? I rode on it last June, I think it is a fairly nice system. The headways are a tad long, however. I waited up to 20 minutes for a train. I'll admit that is was on a Sunday that I rode it, but I looked at the train schedule and is was 20 min. headways everyday. For a tourist, there are stations near the attractions, like the Gateway Arch and the airport, among others. The run between the airport and whatever station is next was a pretty fast run for a light rail (or a subway for that matter). The fare system there is where you buy a ticket and an officer will check it on board. I think that this type of fare collection is annoying. Also, it's easy to steal a free ride. There is a free ride zone in the downtown part of the line during rush hour. They probably did this because it would be a pain to check everyone on board. Overall, it was nice. I don't know how many people use it to commute, but I suspect that it probably isn't that many.
Share your opinions
I think all it does is bring people from the airport Downtown, but its great for that.
Of course, bringing people from the airport downtown is one thing our system doesn't do.
I have ridden it a number of times when I had long layovers at the Airport. If I have 4 or more hours, I usually took it to Union Station for a meal and back. At The Airport you could buy a rt ticket, and if i remember a day pass. The trains are clean. Headways are not that bad 20 minutes for off hours, Fare inspection, samething done on many systems. You do not know where the inspectors get on, so you know to buy the ticket. 5 or more hours take it to a casino and blow some bucks. I give it a 8 out of 10
HAVE YOU RODE THE LOST ANGELES RAIL SYSTEMS YET ??
if so what did you think about "" the subway to nowhere " the GREEN and BLUE light rail ???
I have ridden the blue line numerous times. In fact before I moved from LA in 94, I took Metrolink from Chatsworth to Union Station, then rode the red line and took the blue line all the way to Long Beach. I was stopped at Imperial Hwy I think, because I did not pay for the 2nd zone by a LASO, so I got out, bought a new ticket, and rode to the end. Did some things in LB and reversed myself. I enjoyed it, it was not that bad. The Green Line, I have not ridden. It does not go where I want to, if it ran directly to LAX the way it was supposed to do originally I would have done itn last year when i was in town. The subway was clean, but went no where, Union Station to Alvarado at the time, the best of the 3 the Blue Line. They should build a Light rail in the Valley that goes along the old PE/Sp right a way in the South End of the Valley, but I understand the NIMBYS voted no, now their domestics from Downtown have to take the slow busses and spend just as much time on the bus to get there as they work.
right on the money mr brighton exp bob ! the los angeles rail leaves a lot to be desired !!
however the BLUE LINE is the best i agree !!! red-green lines (suck) ........
The headways during rush hour are 11 - 13 minutes. During ball games and major events (e.g., the Fair St. Louis in the summer and when the Pope visited last year), BiState runs trainsets every 7 - 9 minutes.
The extension eastward to the Mid-America Airport is proceeding on schedule. When complete, I believe St. Louis will have the only light rail system in the U.S. connecting two airports. Additional carsets for the new service are starting to arrive, albeit with some wheel problems, IIRC.
An extension southward (the "Cross County Route") is scheduled to break ground in a few years.
Hi,
I rode the line in 1994.It was still quite new, with extensions already planned. I loved the line; plenty of good photo ops and vantage points.
The cars were fast and clean, as are most all LRT lines. The stations were well designed, too.
The loop in downtown was fascinating, as was the subway portion. I liked the train crossing Laclede's (sp) landing to Illinois. I imagine
it is being extended now.
Proof of payment fare collection can be a mite annoying, but it also helps speed travel - no more waiting while a long queue of people enter or exit a transit vehicle and pay their fare. With POP they have done the time-consuming part first, and when enforcement is done properly (truly random checks, extremely high fines) the rate of fare avoidance is extremely low. I rode Baltimore's light rail a week ago and only observed one fare inspector, but he found two evaders very quickly and escorted them off the vehicle at the next stop. In some cities even the subways are barrier-free, operated by POP - Vienna comes to mind (my daughter was there last May).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
LA's subways are barrier free. St. Louis could have barriers, since none of their stops are on the street. Then again, sometimes you have to cross the tracks to get to the platform.
Does anyone know if Peter Dougherty's book "Tracks of the New York City Subway" is still available?
He sells it directly.
His web site: http://www.quuxuum.org/pjd/trk-book.html
Thanks
Go to the Transit Museum Gift Shop at Grand Central Terminal. I got mine there.
OR ... call the Brooklyn TA Museum store (718) 243-8601 ... for the price of the book they usually have a give away to include with your order (I got a poster of the first 77 MCs, the one they used in the subway cars).
Mr t__:^)
Gee, they didn't say anything about a giveaway when I bought my copy there.-)
QUESTION TO ANY SUB-TALKERS ...............
have you ever been to mexico city in mexico?? if so did you ride and or check out thier
SUBWAY SYSTEM how did the cars look ?? what kind of cabs did they have ??
do they use conductors etc........................... thank you if you can answer post it here or E MAIL
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
I was in Mexico City in 1998, and I took a deep breath and rode the airport line for a few stops. It's very crowded and not entirely safe for gringos (and I speak as an ex-NYCT employee). It uses rubber-tired equipment somewhat like that in Montreal, but boxier and very narrow (maybe six feet wide, rather than the nine or more in NEw York). It carries LOTS of people, and the network has been growing steadily since the first line opened in (I think) the early 1970s.
Other than that one ride, I don't have a great deal of information on number of lines, number of riders (although I think it's more than NYCT), train frequency, etc. Can anybody help?
Six feet wide? That's it?! That's enough for three or four people to stand across. And I thought Montreal's subway was narrow.
DOES ANYONE HAVE A PICTURE OF IT ??
I've seen pictures at some web site that I found by going through links from N.Y. Subway Resoures webpages.
The cars are rubber-tired, similar to Montreal and Paris. They appeared to have full-width cabs. And I believe there are five routes.
Sorry I can't elaborate more, it's been awhile since I visited that site. I'm sure it is still out there.
Weren't the scenes in the movie _Total Recall_ that showed a futuristic subway actually filmed on Mexico City's subway?
Headlights had an article a few years back - my copies aren't conveniently accessible, perhaps one of our more active ERA members (Sherman Cheung, David Ross among others) will have a copy handy and can elucidate further.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
According to the 1987 edition of Janes World Railways, a reference book, Mexico City had 120 km of line. The car dimensions are 16.2 meters long, 2.5 m wide and 3.6 m high, 39.37 inches/meter. At that time the ridership was about 4 million a day. Since 1987 the system was been extended and the ridership has increased but I do not have those figures.
I WOULD LIKE T O SEE A PICTURE OF IT ( THE MEXICO CITY MEXICO SUBWAY )
I F ANYONE HAS A PIX OF IT ALSO DO THEY USE CONDUCTORS OR
ONE PERSON AND ONE OPERATOR ???
I have a friend who went to Mexico City and he has pic's of himself on their equipment. It looks pretty modern.
Peace,
Andee
They has been some discussion lately about the green IRT train. This was the one painted in a dark green or "pullman" green scheme like some of the R-10's received. Although there was only one train a total of 14 cars were repainted.
About May of 1985 12 R-33 were repainted green;8842-8843,8846-8847,8848-8849,8856-8857,8860-8861,8862-8863.
About June of 1986 R-17 6677 and R-21 7025 were also painted green.
If you look at P77 of "New York City Subway Cars" you can see both of these cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ah, yes!
Thank you, Larry! That is the train I was asking about in the thread I started: SUBWAY CAR COLORS.
I am glad that you remember it also. Do you know why more cars were not painted this way? Were these cars eventually repainted redbird red or were they scrapped?
Thanks.
I believe that they were painted green as a test. There already were several trains of repainted "Redbirds" in service. While the green scheme did not take on the IRT it was subsequently applied to the overhauled R-10's. I believe that the R-17 and R-21 retained their green paint until removed from service however the 12 R-33 were later painted in the "Redbird" scheme.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry:
Would you happen to know if that green paint was the Polyurethane paint (Anti-Graffiti) used on the Redbirds?
Since these are going to be th last years the r 28,29,33,36s might run, How about painting them all Green? Thats what they did to the R10s
The redbirds are being retired, so they won't be getting a new paintjob, with the exception of the Flushing cars, which will be around a while longer.
If the cars do get one last paint job, they ought to repaint them in the blue and white World's Fair colors they arrived with 37 years ago.
...and open the dampers on the R-33WFs so the people with the pitchforks and torches might cool off a little (litteraly).
02/11/2000
Chris R16,
Are the Flushing Redbirds staying on that line a little longer? or will Redbirds in better condition be shifted over to the #7?
Don't forget, these cars were the first to be overhauled ('83), the TA policy would be to scrap the first overhauled cars first. They could still run the R-33 singles to complete the 11 car train, much to the distaste of Humans: of Shanghai,Siberia,Turkey or Bayonne!
Bill Newkirk
You got that WRONG. It was Delhi, Bombay, Budapest, Prague, The Hague, Amsterdam (City and Avenue), Columbus (Avenue and Explorer), Hudson (Explorer and River), East (River), Further East (River, really a canal) and ROYAL ISLAND!!!
Lou: I don't know. I believe that the Redbirds had a grafitti resistant paint so I would assume that the green cars did also. I believe that the emphasis was on pulling the train of the line and removing the grafitti as soon as it was discovered.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Couldn't have been R21 "7025" painted green. There was no such animal! That would have been a BMT Multi-Section.
The picture in MY NY Subway book on page 77 shows 7075.
Steve: Its is 7075. 7025 was a typing error.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Speaking of 7075, I do recall a green car coupled to some other R-21s/R-22s running in the refuse train for a time in the 80s. It always looked out of place. This car was ultimately scrapped.
Just for the heck of it, I wouldn't have mind a green R-17 (or R-21) in one of the Museums!!!
-Stef
Hi Folks I just wanted to know what color was the insides of these "Greenbirds"? I would Imagine that the doors were green instead of maroon. Also, the walls basic tan. Its to bad they chose red instead. I like the Green. Regards. PS thats my new name Tom MR R36 Maley.
I rode this train a few times on the #4 line, but each time I saw it - it was always a solid train of R-33's.
Wayne
02/11/2000
It would be safe to assume that all the green R-33's were air conditioned at this time? With the R-17 or 21 mixed in it would be almost like a Flushing train , only 10 cars in lenght.
Bill Newkirk
[It would be safe to assume that all the green R-33's were air conditioned at this time?]
Oh yes! All IRT car classes that were retrofitted with A/C had been long completed by time those cars were painted green.
Wayne
I saw it running on the #2 in early 1987 before it disappeared.
Since New Yorkers do not take well to bad news, I thought it might help the MTA to put a more positive spin on some of their announcements. Therfore, I offer the following...
Instead of "This train is going as far as Smith-Ninth only, " try "We are happy to report that we will arrive at our final destination in just 8 minutes this afternoon instead of the usual 42."
On the el structure don't say "We are being delayed be a red signal" but rather "So that you may better enjoy this lovely view, we are stopping for a few minutes."
Rather than, "This train is going out of service. Everyone Out!" say "Ladies and gentlemen, we are very embarrassed by the less than usual cleaniless of this train, so we're bringing up a much cleaner train for you to ride."
When the express is diverted to the local tracks, announce "For our valued customers at local stations, we will now be providing express service at all stations."
When the local is diverted to the express tracks, "Good news. We will be passing through your neighborhood much sooner than expected."
Instead of "Due to smoke conditions on the bridge, all trains will be operating by the F route" cheerfully report "To make your daily commute more interesting this evening, we're going to take a different route."
Rather than "Let go a the doors!" patiently intone "Thank you for holding the doors. Our longer dwell time in the station means, on average, the ride today will be smoother and quieter."
And when worse comes to worse, don't say, "We regret that we must lead you out of the train and down on to the very dangerous tracks to walk back to the last station". Try this: "And now for a special treat, we've just been authorized to give you a guided tour of your subway line. Very few people get to do this, so enjoy your good fortune."
LOL!!!
And instead of saying "Stairway number 3 takes you to the Market Frankford Line Eastbound etc." say "Going up stairway 3 will give you a unique oppurtunity to lose weight, and, possibly, make a transfer that is completely for free to the Market Frankford Line.
When trains are delayed by a sick passenger, say "New York provides the best emergency medical services in the nation. A passenger is now fortunate enough to benefit from these quality services."
02/11/2000
Well anything has got to be better than "sorry for the delay, we are being delayed due to CONGESTION ahead"
What the hell is congestion?...I thought congestion is a medical term!
How about "we are pausing here for a moment to relax and will regain our journey when the train ahead of us with BIE decides to move again"
Bill Newkirk
Here's a better one:
The train ahead of us is tired an needs to relax. We will respect it's right by waiting here until it can take a nice, deep breath and resume it's journey.
Reminds me of a radio interview I heard in which a British heavy metal band was explaining a phone call from their manager in which he reported that their record sales figures had become rather dismal.
The manager's explanation: "Well, it appears as if your appeal has been getting more selective."
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I can think of several car types which fall into that category.:)
There has been all sorts of blurbs about His Honor the Mayor, negative as well as positive. I've been thinking, though, about his feelings about the subway system. I'm sure he limos around for the most part when he tours the city, but he must have a favorite train. Having been raised in Brooklyn, he must have ridden the subways to and fro. SOOOOOOO, what do you think his favorite train is? Does he have one? Or do you think he's so anti-subway that he wouldn't be caught dead on
one. Actually, it would be a good election move to be seen riding on one, so maybe I've given an idea for a preemitive strike. Let's hear it out there what your take on this is. We might generate some good answers, and with Rudy it could lead to other sub-topics. It always seem to, anyway.
Probably the 4 Train. "City Hall to Yankee Stadium"
Metro North to Chappaqua!
lol!
The only train Rudy has ever admitted riding is the #4 - once, to take his son to Yankee Stadium. No work on how they returned.
Hehehe, I definitely see City hall To Yankee stadium Rudy's favorite trip for sure. But I wonder, whoever the mayor is in 2004, do you think there is a chance that he/she would be willing to re-enact the subways opening, and hop a train from the old city hall station at 2:35 PM on October 27th, 100 years ago to the minute?
A couple notes on celebrities. First, yes, taking the subway during a campaign is a good idea, and we all know that Hillary did that already. My guess is that Rudy will be on the publicity run of the R142. But you'd be surprised to know that some celebrities will take the subways. I know at least one of the Yankees (forget which one) has admitted to taking the #4 train to work everyday. Also, last summer at night, I was sitting right across from Rob Schneider (Saturday Night Live) on the #2 train. -Nick
A pitcher for the Atlanta Braves has been known to take the #7 train when the Braves are in town playing the Mets.
-- David
Chicago, IL
It was also no secret that David Letterman's former sidekick Larry 'Bud' Melman was known to ride to work from his home in Bay Ridge on the R Train.
I once saw Rosie Perez ('Subway Stories') coming out of the IRT Borough Hall station walking toward Fulton Street.
Doug aka BMTman
>>>>It was also no secret that David Letterman's former sidekick Larry 'Bud' Melman was known to ride to
work from his home in Bay Ridge on the R Train. <<<
Yes. I would often see Mr. DeForest on the R train when I lived in Bay Ridge. He would walk up 86th Street to get home (no, I wasn't following him, that was my route too.) I respected the guy's privacy, so I didn't ask for a signature or anything.
I haven't seen much of him lately--I hope everything's OK with him.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I think Jackie Onassis used to take the subway but only when she went to the laundromat.
You'd think Jackie O could afford to send out her laundry.
It was well documented that her late son rode the subway every day between the Upper West Side and his job at the Manhattan DA's office.
Many Yankees who live in Manhattan would take the '4' to work. Jim Abbott, Derek Jeter and David Cone come to mind. Of course, they may have been hard to spot out of uniform.
My friend swore he saw Spike Lee on the 'G' train many years ago in his SHE'S GOTTA HAVE IT period. Given that Spike has always lived in Fort Greene, it's a distinct possibility.
Unfortunately, like many of those who become 'big shots', Spike Lee has said 'bye, bye' to Brooklyn and now lives in the paramecium-shaped borough.
So it ain't likely we'll be seeing Spike on the G Train any time soon. Another sell-out.
Doug aka BMTman
Don't forget Hector Elizondo, Mr. Gray on the original Pelham 1-2-3. There was a subway ad a couple of years ago featuring him. He is quoted as saying he's a native of New York and a subway rider all his life.
02/11/2000
Very slightly off topic. When riding a M6 BUS two years ago in the vicinity of City Hall, I noticed on my bus, a famous ex- boxer turned NY Post or Daily News columnist. His name escapes me right now. I believe his first name is Jose. He's a Puerto Rican gentleman, anybody out there know who I'm talking about?
Bill Newkirk
That would be the great Jose Torres.
He is most noted for writing a very good book on the trials and tribulations of the life of Mike Tyson.
Doug aka BMTman
[You'd think Jackie O could afford to send out her laundry.
It was well documented that her late son rode the subway every day between the Upper West Side and his job at the Manhattan DA's office.]
It's sort of sad that one of the very few famous people who rode the subway is now gone. I'm quite sure that most big shots avoid the subway like the plague, preferring to sit in traffic in their limousines even though they'd get to the destinations a lot faster by subway. Morons.
It's pretty hard to miss a major league ballplayer up close, in or out of uniform--most of them are big, big guys. We may think of Jeter as an agile little fella, but he's listed at 6'3", 195 lbs. If you saw him on the train you'd notice him (the crowd of teenyboppers would be another tipoff). Still, John Olerud managed not to be recognized going back and forth on the 7 during his stint with the Mets. John Rocker evidently rode incognito on the 7, too--I think the white hood helped.
John Olerud lived in Manhattan and often took the #7 to Shea. Other players live in Port Washington and take the LIRR to Shea as well. Their wives or significant others usually drive them home.
Rudy's favorite train? One that does not go near City Hall and has the Ten Commandments instead of a Subway Map.
I doubt Rudy thinks much of the subway, or those who ride it. He was raised in the suburb within city subculture that says white people drive.
Parking spaces are the key perk in city government. Political appointees in general don't take the subway. Union leaders all drive. Most Cops won't take the subway -- our own Sarge excepted. Neither to the high level corporate types who have access to the Mayor.
I doubt if any of those elected officials who tried to get their name in the newspaper by testifying in favor of the Second Avenue Subway took the subway to get there.
Yes he took the subway to Yankee Stadium once, and he made a big deal out of it. What that says to me is that it was very unusual.
A few years ago, when Larry Reuter came to speak at City Planning, I walked out the door with him on my way to lunch (I was complaining about the Manhattan Bridge, as you might expect). He and his lieutenants went down the stairs into the subway to get back to Jay St. I waited a minute to make sure they didn't come back up the stairs and hop into a limo when they thought no one was looking.
Ages ago (1985?) I was taking the 'F' into work one morning when at 4th Avenue a 'sick passenger' caused our train to be held. Subsequent 'F' trains are then by-passing us on the express track. Along side of our train one of the by-passing train stops, and out of the front door comes David Gunn and a Transit policeman. They cross the track, climb up onto the platform and head back towards the emergency. I'd seen him on the 'F' other mornings but was pleasantly surprised at his active interest in his railroad that day.
In Jim Dwyer's book Subway Lives he talks about how David Gunn rode the subways.
I will always remember Gunn fondly because he was the first transit honcho who actually conquered graffiti.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was watching a old Beta tape that I converted to VHS taken during the 76 Bi-Centenial Tall Ships in NY. The commentators mentioned that they took the Subway from Midtown to South Ferry, because they had less then a hour to get to the new location, and it was the easiest thing to do. I forgtot his name Jim Mc Something.
Of course Rudy probably rode the subway in his youth because he was raised and lived -- till his teenage years -- in Flatbush. The Guiliani family lived in the 400 block of Hawthorne Street (this puts the address somewhere between Brooklyn and New York Avenues. The area was heavily Italian and still has a number of Italian families that reside on Lefferts/Lincoln/E. New York Ave.
I would assume of course that as a kid Rudy rode the IRT #2 & 5 trains from the Sterling or Winthrop Street (my stop when I lived in Flatbush in my youth).
However, once his family moved out to the 'burbs, I'm sure he never entertained the thought of riding the subways again (except for his 'father & son out at the ballpark' photo op).
Doug aka BMTman
Rudy grew up in Brooklyn half way between the Brighton and Nostrand Lines, From what I heard, The Brighton to the City or the 4 to the Stadium. The D was not on the Brighton at that time
Rudys favorite train?? The corporate gravy train.
Peace,
Andee
Rudy's favorite is the S and the B. This stands for Senate Bid.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I thought it stood for SOB :)
No, really, I'm PRO-Rudy.
Let us all take a moment and give our condolences to Southferry 1/9 whose father just passed away.
02/11/2000
Southferry 1/9,
You have my deepest sympathies as I lost my father too on 6/22/76, 24 years ago. My condolences to you and your family.
Bill Newkirk
ITS THE NEW FLYER D45S VIKING! FINNALY GOT MY ROLL DEVELOPED FOR ALL YOU NON-BELIEVERS!
ENJOY!
Trevor Logan
Does this bus run on rails, Have a compressor or run on 600 volt current? NO. It does not belong in SubTalk. I'm not trying to offend you or anyone else from BusTalk but, Dave closed it down. By bringing it here he will see that closing it did nothing. I don't want tosee him close SubTalk. Please, keep the buses out of here.
Sorry, Just like to let you know that Subway's were posted on BT and there was never such a response. Will never do again!
Trevor
Trevor & Gary,
I for one won't mind if you OR the other bus related Web Sites remind us of your site INFREQUENTLY, especially if you've made a SIGNIFICANT update. That's one of the great features of this site, i.e. folks make a SMALL post about a site that seems to be of interest to some (usually based on a thread that relates) and include a hot link for lazy guys like me. I'm remembering links of Danbury, Boston & Philly sites.
But you must admit that posting a bunch of bus photos here is going to result in a bunch of us jumping down your throat. It's not that we don't like you personally or can't appreciate your pasion, we just don't care that much for buses that run on rubber ties (oh I hope no one in the management of my company reads this).
Mr t__:^)
gee!! i mean leave the guy alone !
This is what started the flame out on Bustalk,let's not start it hre
You are responding to a Four year old post.
Salaam Allah went through this In February 2000. He doesn't remember it, most likely.
Stay away from responding to any post in the Archives. Odds are NOBODY remembers what they said four years ago. They're less likely to remember what they wrote on what may be the most active rail/transit bulletin board in the entire internet.
Before BusTalk there was just SubTalk and everyone posted things that were TRANIST RELATED. I see nothing wrong with post showing new transportation modes.
This is true, BUT there are several other local Web sites that are devoted to bus issues. So, it's not like this is the only site they can meet and swap stories at.
Mr t__:^)
I assume that my thread on Riverside Drive is bad because it belongs on StreetTalk?
R O F L
Bustalk was shut for some extreme flaming, not from off-topic posts. Heck, we talked Nathans a few months back!
Speaking of food, a genuine kosher deli stand (OU) has opened in GCT's Food Court. Expensive, but the Corned Beef was well worth it, and they had Dr. Browns!
-Hank :)
Speaking of a good kosher deli, The Four Kings Deli just opened on 45th st in Manhattan. Talk about good food. This is train related because it is three doors from the Red Caboose. :-)
P.S.
They are cheaper than the one in GCT and they have Dr. Browns too!!!
Where on 45th? WHAT SUBWAY STATION IS IT NEAR? (must stay on-topic 'ya know)
Peace,
Andee
02/11/2000
The Red Caboose is on West 45th St between 5th and 6th Ave. The closest subway station is the 6th Ave subway at 47-50th Sts. So this deli should be there on 45th St.
Bill Newkirk
That's just 2 blocks from my office....I was suprised that I couldn't find a decent kosher deli when I started working there, considering that it's the jewlery district. That's why I was happy to see the stand in GCT. It's expensive, but worth it. Can't eat there every day, though.
-Hank
its either there or Mr Broadway on Bdwy and 37th
Another great kosher deli is Ben's at 209 West 38th Street near 7th Avenue. They are also expensive but the quality is excellant and the portions huge. They also have one in Bay Terrace Shopping Center in Queens and several in Long Island. Give them a try, it's worth the trip!
I will check it out....thanks
[Another great kosher deli is Ben's at 209 West 38th Street near 7th Avenue. They are also expensive but the quality is excellant and the portions huge. They also have one in Bay Terrace Shopping Center in Queens and several in Long Island. Give them a try, it's worth the trip!]
I know that the Ben's in the Roosevelt Field Mall is open on Saturdays. Now, I had thought that a kosher restaurant must close on Saturdays ... therefore, unless I'm mistaken, Ben's is not actually a Kosher deli.
Depends on your definition of Kosher and Jewish which is a whole other topic. Ben's (great food) serves all Kosher meat. They will not serve any dairy products on premises. That means using non-dairy creamer in your coffee. Although I am not religious I believe that they observe all kosher laws (at least that are enforced by NYS Agricultre and Markets Dept. Whether staying open on Saturday violates Kosher laws, I'll defer to the more knowledgeable among us (perhaps Anon-E-mouse). It definitely violates Orthodox Jewish Law (if you choose to them) but Kashruth violations, I'm not sure
At the very least, if the restaurant is owned by Jews (and possibly if it isn't), any food cooked on the Sabbath is not kosher. (Perhaps such a restaurant is kosher for six days of the week? Not if there's a reasonable chance of leftovers from the Sabbath being served the rest of the week.) Although this doesn't directly change the status of the food, I can't imagine any kosher supervisory agency approving of a restaurant that takes money from customers (many, possibly most, of whom are, presumably, Jewish) on the Sabbath; most Jews who are serious about keeping kosher will not eat at a restaurant that is unsupervised. (There are loads of issues beyond whether the meat that comes in is kosher and the like.) Theoretically, a kosher restaurant could remain open on the Sabbath as long as the food is all cooked before the Sabbath (it can remain warm on the stove -- e.g., cholent) and payment is taken in advance. I've never been to Ben's but I don't think it meets those criteria.
As to whether it meets NYS criteria, read the signs carefully. If the restaurant claims to be kosher, it probably does meet NYS criteria, as IINM they're enforced pretty stringently. If it claims only to be kosher-style, it's not kosher. (Anyone who seriously observes all of the kashrut laws will look for a certificate of reliability from a supervisory agency or rabbi.)
There is Kosher and Kosher Style which most delis are. Even in LA with the 2nd largest Jewish Pop in No America some of the Kosher Style Delis served Ham.
[re "Kosher-ness" of Ben's Deli]
[At the very least, if the restaurant is owned by Jews (and possibly if it isn't), any food cooked on the Sabbath is not kosher. (Perhaps such a restaurant is kosher for six days of the week? Not if there's
a reasonable chance of leftovers from the Sabbath being served the rest of the week.) Although this doesn't directly change the status of the food, I can't imagine any kosher supervisory agency approving of a restaurant that takes money from customers (many, possibly most, of whom are, presumably, Jewish) on the Sabbath; most Jews who are serious about keeping kosher will not eat at a restaurant that is unsupervised. (There are loads of issues beyond whether the meat that comes in is kosher and the like.) Theoretically, a kosher restaurant could remain open on the Sabbath as long as the food is all cooked before the Sabbath (it can remain warm on the stove -- e.g., cholent)
and payment is taken in advance. I've never been to Ben's but I don't think it meets those criteria.]
Ben's at Roosevelt Field Mall definitely does not meet those standards. I was there on a Saturday, and they seemed to be making stuff - and, needless to say, took my money :-) In addition, while I don't know if this is a pre-requisite for being Kosher, but almost all of the employees I've ever seen working there are black or Hispanic and hence unlikely to be Jewish.
I sort of suspect that Ben's is "kosher" to the extent that Panda Express is authentically Chinese or Sbarro's is authentically Italian.
Non-Jewish employees don't create a problem. Strictly speaking, an observant Jew (this would typically be the kashrut supervisor) must participate in the preparation of the food -- this could be (and usually is, in the case of a restaurant) something as mundane as stirring the soup or turning on the burners and ovens in the morning. There are exceptions, but I won't go into the details (since I don't really know them).
From the descriptions here, it sounds like Ben's is an authentic kosher-style deli. Seeing as there is a plethora of strictly kosher delis in the NYC region, why not patronize the real thing?
Because I don't think that place is kosher anymore.
The oddest thing is that Katz's sandwiches cost more than the average real Certified Kosher restaurant in Manhattan.
You're paying for the scene in When Harry Met Sally.
It is a VERY common misconception. Everyone should get in the habit of looking in the deli's front window to see if there is a certificate stating who certifies the place to be kosher. If there is any certificate at all, it is probably a reliable one and is therefore kosher. If no certificate, then the place is treif (not kosher).
I don't eat much Deli food these days.
TMI
P.S. Since when did the 2nd Ave Deli decide to go trayf?
I don't know for sure whether it is or isn't still kosher.
Sometimes I see customers with yarmulkes in there, but
generally not. None of my orthodox friends would eat
there.
OK, ObTransit: The street in front of 2nd Ave deli (10th
st vicinity) was one of the areas dug up for the 2nd Ave
subway in the 1970s. No tunnel structure was ever constructed
there and the excavation was filled in.
I think they use the "all profits earned on Shabbos go to our Goyishe co-owner" loophole. I've heard that they'll gladly put cheese on your corned beef, too, but that may just be a vicious rumor.
OK, ObTransit: The street in front of 2nd Ave deli (10th
st vicinity) was one of the areas dug up for the 2nd Ave
subway in the 1970s. No tunnel structure was ever constructed
there and the excavation was filled in.
Utility relocation was completed.
There are other kosher delis that are open on Saturdays, but they tend to be certified Conservative or unaffiliated rabbis. They are kosher for anyone who accepts the certification. For those who do not accept it, they are traif. I think that Ben's fits this category. So does Empress, on 86th Street off of Bay Parkway under the West End Line.
New York's kosher laws were found unconstitutional a couple of years ago because they referred to "Orthodox Jewish" standards. A butcher shop on Long Island (I don't know near which LIRR stop ;) ) was cited because its cerification was from a Conservative rabbi. The shop went to court and got the law thrown out. I believe that we are awaiting a constitutional replacement.
That may explain why I've seen test boring going on several times in the last few months at 2nd around 11th. Maybe they're trying to figure out what's down there.
So then why not just go to the real thing?
You THOUGHT you were getting kosher. That is the appeal of the place. But instead you were getting the same garbage you can buy at any treif restaurant. You're ok with that? You're ok with practically being lied to and then being ripped off because of it?
Whatever floats your boat, man.
You don't know if the Salami contained pork or not (Pork itself, no offense American Pig, is forbidden in Judaism as well as Islam.) That's why Katz's is a fake deli.
Katz's is not fake! It's real. I've been there several times.
As for salami, if it contains only beef and the animal was slaughtered in the traditional way, then the salami can be considered Kosher.
So now you understand why? If not, I'll tell you. THAT WASN'T NECESSARILY KOSHER SALAMI! (I assume you mean kosher by "Jewish"...)
An item of food may be Kosher based on content but if it isn't prepared according to the dietary laws them it becomes non-kosher (trayfe, or treif or however you want to spell it).
On a related note, there was a big Kosher Deli by Penn Station years ago called Deli City. It was a Nathans type of place but was completely Kosher. They didn't close on Passover but did NOT sell Chometz then. If you ordered a hot dog or a sandwich they gave you the meat on a plate and served it with 2 slices of Matzah. There were signs all over explaining it. I remember though, after a Knick or Ranger game all the drunken fans who went in there after MSG complaining about the Matzah and the lack of bread.
Good! It bothers me too (in a way)!
(the fact my wife is as Irish Catholic as one can get bears that out!!)
Ah, so that explains why your son didn't have a bris (at Branford) :)
On a related note, there was a big Kosher Deli by Penn Station years ago called Deli City. It was a Nathans type of place but was completely Kosher. They didn't close on Passover but did NOT sell Chometz then. If you ordered a hot dog or a sandwich they gave you the meat on a plate and served it with 2 slices of Matzah. There were signs all over explaining it. I remember though, after a Knick or Ranger game all the drunken fans who went in there after MSG complaining about the Matzah and the lack of bread.
Ha ha, that's funny. Thanks.
As far as Deli City is concerned, as funny as that sounded, the story is 100% true. I used to work at the garden as a teen and used to go alot. And although I am not Kosher I do not eat Chometz on Passover so I used to go there all the time. Most Kosher restaurants close on Pesach, but I guess the owners of Deli City couldn't afford to close being in such a prime midtown location so they did the next best thing and became Kosher for Pesach.
By the way, now that I'm 50, do I count as aged enough to eat egg matzahs on Pesach? :)
That's pretty cool!
Most Kosher restaurants close on Pesach...
Although there is no rule saying they have to. They can stay open as long as they follow all the rules of Pesach and are not open on the first two and last two days.
By the way, now that I'm 50, do I count as aged enough to eat egg matzahs on Pesach? :)
Ask your local Orthodox Rabbi, not me :)
The laws of kashrut, by my interpretation, say nothing about Shabbos vs. any other day of the week; therefore, strictly speaking, Ben's does not violate those laws for the reason cited. Obviously, I'm not in a position to state if they follow them strictly otherwise, although from your description it sounds like they do. They DO violate other laws by being open on Shabbat, which might cause the most Orthodox among us to avoid them at all times; that would not stop me from patronizing them, however. (Indeed, in our house we observe the spirit of kashrut - no meat and cheese together, etc. - but we do not have separate dishes nor do we always purchase kosher beef and chicken. From our perspective, the dietary laws were put in place to [1] protect the health of the people and [2] minimize the pain to the animal being slaughtered. Modern animal husbandry and refrigeration have dealt with issue 1, and modern slaughtering methods have dealt with issue 2 to the point that the traditional kosher method may actually be more painful to the animal - certainly the modern methods are no worse than equal.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ben's is supposed to be under Rabinical supervision, however, since it is open of the Sabbath, the supervision is not reliable. I have eaten there on occasion when I have had to have lunch with a client and there was no other kosher establishment available. This usually occurs when I'm on Long Island. Within the city, there are plenty of restaurants which are "Shomer Shabbos". When I have eaten there, I do not eat the meat, I only order an individual tuna salad.
The Ben's on 38th Street replaced Louis G. Siegel's kosher deli which had been a landmark for over 70 years. It was a sad day when it closed.
Lou G. Siegel's closed?! When?
about 3 yrs ago, Ben's deli took over the spot don't know if they are still there????
Yeah, Ben's is still there. I don't work far from there, but its useless to me. Lou G. Siegels was the best.
Whole different kind of place and do the waiters know what you want before you order????
Can't tell you that, I don't eat there.
Actually, I wasn't thrilled with Siegel's in what I suppose were its last years. Where do you work? I'm sure we could find you a suitable replacement. (Now, I'd be thrilled if you could reciprocate and find me a kosher restaurant here in Champaign-Urbana, IL, but the only way you could do that is to open one yourself. The closest kosher restaurant is about 120 miles away in Indianapolis, and that one is a mere JCC cafeteria that has very limited hours. Chicago, with its wider selection of restaurants, is somewhat further, and the drive is stunningly boring.)
Three blocks from the 5th Ave. Station on the #7. Only two avenue blocks from the 45th St. entrance to Grand Central. The hot buffet there is good. (I did like the Kosher Pizza place that we there before it.)
Gee, somebody else who knows about Cel-Ray. Our (BSM) Director of Restoration LOVES Dr. Brown's Cel-Ray. We scratch our heads in wonder.
Cel-Ray....GREAT stuff
Ick. I tasted it once, I won't describe firther my feelings for it. Personally, I go for Cream Soda with Pastrami, and Black Cherry with Corned Beef.
-Hank
Ick is right!!! One swallow is enough..
Celery sody. Sheesh!!!
Nothing beats Dr. Browns Black Cherry. (For me in 2nd place is Cream. Cel-Ray is like taking an express bus, boring.)
We even have Dr Browns Soda in Maui, but at $1.00 a can forget it. In Honolulu there is a Kosher(Style) Deli named Bernardsb He has subway signs all over the walls. along with caps from the different boros. I have to stop there everytime I am over there. He is opening a deli in Tokyo next month. Also in Hong Kong there are 2 Kosher Style Delis called the Beverly Hills Deli, but when you walk in it is again NY Subway Signs.
Pickles Kosher Deli in Syracuse has Dr.Brown's
So does the Rascal House in North Miami Beach. The pastrami sandwiches are very good also.
02/11/2000
Speaking of Deli's there is a great one on Kings Highway a few blocks from the Brighton line. Is it Edelman's? Mark W. and I had a bite in there a few months back. I'm not Jewish, but like the old subway "ad" for Levy's Real Jewish rye bread said, "you don't have to be Jewish".
Bill Newkirk
Yup, still there, at lunch there in June. From what I understand there are a few more branches is that true?
I think Wolfies had it as well as Foxy"s in the sixties. Was sad six years ago when I passed Lincoln Road and Collins Ave in Miami Beach and saw the Wolfies had become a Denny's. I cannot in good conscience call that progress.
Try your local Costco/Price Club if you want 2 pounds of the stuff.
I have bad news to report regarding the 4 kings deli. I had a yen for pastrami so... I took the F to Rockefeller Center to check it out. Guess what? NO PASTRAMI!!! In fact the whole deli section wasn't even opened. WHAT KIND OF KOSHER DELI HAS NO PASTRAMI? SHEESH
Peace,
Andee
I just finished the First 2 Hours of Willie s Q-A-7 Subway video. Great shots. Stopped at Kings Highway the third time thru, Since Dubrows was closed, went to Adelmans for a Brisket on Challah Sandwich with a Dr Browns Cream. Then I woke up. I m in Hawaii, so I had a Hebrew National Hot Dog and a Safeway Cream Soda. Close enough. By the way as I said the tape is great. 2 Hours, and 6 more to go
Why is everyone writing about kosher delis on Shabbos? Let's wait until Saturday night when they reopen guys.
GOOD ONE, MARK
02/13/2000
Why are we writing about deli's? Because it makes us hungry! Writing, riding and talking about trains must burn up our energy.
Bill Newkirk
wow !!! what a nerd !!
'Nuff said.
Harry, buses have their place - as a feeder to a subway, el or Light Rail line!!
PLEASE!!
to all sub talkers
Look what went on at bus talk. do you now wish to bring down sub talk.
let's act like the adults we are supposed to be. If you wish to promote your excellent web site(s) do so once a month or in one post state "frequent updates". Also- let's refrain (stop) from calling each other names. Bus talk burned down. Do we want Kevin to add a new section to forgotten-ny.com called "sub talk ?"
for one I'd prefer to see subtalk survive.
Now to the Kids(not those regulars who are under age 18)--please stop playing. If you cant act like adults find some other toy. You are not welcome to bring down sub talk like you did to bus talk.
To the "adults" among us: do not respond to childish posts. If we ignore the kids they will go away-- they just want someone to play with them-- let some other site deal with the kids!
wow !!!!!
I have no problem with promotion as long as it doesn't forcefeed my desire to communicate with the intended subjects. I posted "I hate buses" in reference to the gent who put pictures with long download times on a site I am not going out of my way to look for. A link could have been posted but I had to wait for three pics to load before my back button became available. All I'm saying is that there is a Bustalk section somewhere out there and that is where those pics belong. Get it? I don't hate bustalkers, I just dislike buses.
I think that we here should break with tradition and be open to new ideas. If things didn't work in the past it dosen't mean we should give up on them. We here at Subtalk are strong, we are tough, if we don't let things stand in our way. So hold on to your motorman's caps, I have a radical. My proposal will defy all existing subway doctorine and conventional wisdom....ready?
What, you think I'm going to say that we should let Bus Talkers on this MB? No, I propose that we tear down the chain link fence and built some grade crossings here at Subtalk. That'll take care of those pesky busses and the Bus Talkers can get a taste of the exposed 3rd rail.
Eek, It's a BUS.
Quick, Henry. The Flit!!!!
Oh Boy, here we go again. I guess someone loves to show off.
my god!! what is that a Truck?!
GREAT SHOTS WONDER FUL PHOTOGRAPHY LIKE MINE !!
MR TREVOR LOGAN I A GREAT MAN CHECK OUT HIS GREAT WEBSITE ALSO !!
Sorry Brah...
Let's say I'm doing a little conceptual design for a hypothetical Manhattan Bridge replacement span (most likely a cable-stayed structure).
What I do know: The bridge has seven traffic lanes, four subway tracks and two pedestrian walkways. The main span is 1470 feet long, and each of the two side spans are 725 feet long.
What I don't know but need to know:
1) About how tall are each of the towers?
2) How high is the roadway (for the sake of argument we'll assume the lower deck) above the water at A) midspan, and B) at the ends of each of the two side spans, accounting for the rise of the land.
I don't need 1/16" precision on these measurements, but general ballpark figures, say, within 10 feet, would be adequate. For the time being I'm not dealing with the associated approach ramps, etc.
Also:
3) We've talked a lot about the structural problems of the cables and truss of the bridge. But what is the general condition of the piers and foundations in the river? A lot of expense and labor would be saved by being able to build on top of the existing piers. Rough dimensions of these piers would also be a huge plus.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Look for my conceptual design, along with most of my other recent design projects, to be published on my website fairly soon.
I also have a few questions about the proposed Second Avenue subway (another idea for hypothetical design project I'm tossing around), but I'll save those for later.
Thanks,
-- David
Chicago, IL
Perhaps an arch design might be better rather than a replacement suspension bridge.
Wayne
Check the NYC-DOT website for the dimensions. But here is the problem -- where do you put the replacement. Right in the same spot is fine, but what are you going to do with all the trucks and trains while the old bridge is torn down and the new one is put in its place.
If the Manhattan Bridge were not there, I'd put a tunnel from Flatbush Avenue Extension to Canal Street, not a bridge. It would have two lanes (one in each direction) for trucks and buses on the upper level, and two tracks for subways on the lower level. If the connection from DeKalb to the Rutgers tunnel were built so that all the other tunnels could be fully used, two tracks would be all you needed. As for the road, do we really need to have capacity for more cars to go to Manhattan? Cars can use the Brooklyn and Williamsburg Bridges, trucks and buses could use the tunnel.
But the Manhattan Bridge is there. You can't tunnel under it, can you? And tearing it down and replacing it would take lots of time.
But here is the problem -- where do you put the replacement. Right in the same spot is fine, but what are you going to do with all the trucks and trains while the old bridge is torn down and the new one is put in its place.
The design project is purely hypothetical, so I'm assuming the new bridge is being built in the same spot. For the sake of argument, we'll pretend that the Manny-B got hit by an asteroid the day after engineers finished their 20-year repair project and pronounced the bridge fit to last another 50 years.
If the Manhattan Bridge were not there, I'd put a tunnel from Flatbush Avenue Extension to Canal Street, not a bridge.
Maybe, but keep in mind you're talking to an architect here, not an engineer. A tunnel may be practical, but few people go out and buy books or postcards featuring photographs of tunnels. :-)
In response to Wayne's preference for an arch design, I too like a good arch bridge (the Hell Gate Bridge is probably my favorite NYC bridge after the Brooklyn Bridge), but in this case I think a cable-stayed bridge would be more appropriate for the site. A beautiful, modern cable-stayed bridge would be the perfect visual and historic compliment to the venerable Brooklyn Bridge next door, not to mention the Williamsburg Bridge further up. I think the three existing suspension bridges make an excellent aesthetic trio, and I'd like to maintain that visual profile.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I don't think cable-stayed will work. It's a type of suspension bridge (I figure you know, since it's you're idea, but others may not) that relies only on individual cables, not large, main suspender cables like the current bridge; a cable stayed bridge has the individual suspender cables attached to a tower or towers, instead of at least 2 main cables with suspenders hung off of them.
I don't think this design is well suited at all for a bridge that will be carrying subway trains. The existing bridge (and in fact, all suspension bridges) have a tendency to flex in response to load. A cable-stayed design, I belive, is more prone to this flexing than a standard suspension bridge. I belive they way to go, if trains are to continue using the bridge, is with a rigid-span bridge, similar to the Hell Gate or Outerbridge Crossing. If trains leave the bridge and use a tunnel, than a cable-stayed bridge would be perfect. In fact, if the towers of the existing bridge are in good shape and could be modified, you could probably replace the bridge in-kind. (although it's pure fantasy on my part how this could be done)
-Hank
I was always under the impression that cable-stayed bridges are in fact much more rigid than tranditional suspension bridges. Cable-stayed bridges seem to be the most favored approach nowadays for long-span crossings, and as far as concerns about rail traffic go, one of the largest cable-stayed bridges in the world is now under construction in Europe (Denmark, I believe), and will carry high-speed passenger trains when complete. But then, I'm not a civil engineer, so I could be mistaken.
-- David
Chicago, IL
At the risk of (for the fun of) driving you nuts, your attitude about the value of a bridge vs. a tunnel reminds me of Robert Moses and the Brooklyn-Battery Bridge controversy.
I'll be a civil engineer when I graduate from college in 3.5 years. I'll let you know then :-)
I believe that the light-rail system in Vancouver uses a cable-stayed bridge, albeit one with a much lighter live load and shorter span than any MannyB replacement would.
Jon Hart
As long as we're allowed to indulge in an occasional "what-if", I like the idea of a new cable-stayed bridge from the Con Ed site at Vinegar Hill to the Banana Piers directly opposite (South Street and the FDR Drive). If such a bridge were strictly for autos/trucks, the ManB could become transit-only - a move that would greatly extend its life, I'm certain. Perhaps one thing that may make a cable-stayed bridge work in a situation like this is the fact that massive space-consuming anchorages are not needed.
Also, the CA/T project here in Boston includes a fairly substantial cable-stayed bridge. (www.bigdig.com)
(New Bridge from the Con Ed property)
Unfortunately, the combination of NIMBY and grade would be deadly. Shallow grade requires a long trip over land, steep grade makes the crosssing less valuable.
E. Kober's idea was a new tunnel from the Navy Yard (in the vicinity the Kent Wythe BQE exit) across to South Street facing southbound, with a ramp up to the viaduct. Trucks could use the tunnel, and wrap around the viaduct and West Street to the Holland Tunnel for the through trip, instead of taking Canal Street.
02/11/2000
There has been much talk on this site about the much maligned Manhattan Bridge. This bridge needs more than patch work, maybe an almost total rebuild. How about this?
1) First order of business is to address the transit lines using this span which is the cause of the problem. As discussed, replacement tunnels need to be built. Expensive yes, but how do you rebuild this bridge and totally shift all train traffic? The Montague St. tunnel cannot handle all this extra traffic and if one train lays down, all hell breaks loose. Build the tunnels, open it for Broadway and Sixth Avenue service and say goodbye to the Manny B forever.
2) Now with train traffic permanently off the bridge, close it to all vehicular traffic for some years and divert traffic to the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel and the Williamsburg Bridge. Now demolish the Manhattan Bridge minus the two towers. If the towers are in good shape and will last another hundred years, all that's needed is for a new bridge minus the towers. Redesign it from scratch. The reason why I said to retain the towers, provided they are sound, is that a new bridge using the present towers would be completed much sooner.
Sound silly? Well then what's the alternative? Spot rebuilds and patchwork consisting of "stiffening" work on the decking doesn't make sense to me. Aren't bridges supposed to have some "play" in it especially when weather extremes cause the structure to either expand or contract? Other than that, we're just patching up this span which will be celebrating 100 years about ten years from now. Everybody marveled when the Brooklyn Bridge made it to 100 back in 1983, but the Brooklyn Bridge didn't have the challenges and problems the Mahattan Bridge has with truck and subway traffic for years. Put it off long enough, and a catastrophe will happen. The sight of part of a dangling R-68 up on the bridge with the other cars at the bottom of the East River rush hour passengers entombed, would make New Yorkers more than livid.
Somethings got to be done because the clock is ticking, now maybe someone has a better plan than I. Let's hear it.
Bill Newkirk
You're right - we're getting closer and closer to a "Disaster in New York" headline. It would go on to say something like "Bridge collapse plunges autos, subway train into East River".
We are getting closer to no such thing. The only reason some people tout such a horrific and improbable scenario is the length of time it has taken to rebuild the bridge. This does not mean the bridge will ever collapse, except perhaps from the hand of man.
Also note, instead of changing my handle, from now on, I will change my e-mail, so point to my handle everytime and see the zany new e-mail address.
Just when I thought we had my good friend, the Pig
from Royal Island cornered, he shows us that there
is no telling what a slimy little pig will do to
keep from getting penned in. It is a tribute to the
resourcefulness of youth. As an aging baby boomer advancing rapidly into the dim recesses of old age,
I feel reassured that the integrity and intelligence
of this message board will fall into the paws of
swine like Pigs from Royal Island.
heypaul, what about the youth of people like me?
Are you asking me if I include you when I flamed my friend " Pigs of Royal Island" ? I would have to say no, but now that I look at your handle "PGitty" it could spell pig if you moved the " i " around. But you seem like a level headed young person, and from your earlier posting on BusTalk about finding holes in the floor of buses, I think you are decent person. Perhaps you shouldn't throw away so many pennies through the hole in the floor of the bus, unless you felt it was a wishing well.
I could go on with this, but I think by now you are probably sorry you asked me a question? ::--)
( I just made that symbol up for a person with a big nose and glasses who is smiling. )
Shouldn't the face look like this: :(:))
Only if it's a pig face.
Pigs don't have paws, we have hooves.
No, pickled pigs' feet. Which reminds me - are they kosher? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
you've got to be kidding.
Hey, just practicing my heypaul imitation here!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Pigs of Royal Island pointed out to me that pigs have hooves and not paws. Not being a pig, I stand corrected. Come to think about it, I think there is a major force in the Bible who also has hoofs.
( according to my dictionary hoofs is the more common spelling of more than one hoof )
It's all speciesism and anti-swinitism that the devil has hooves.
Pigs are smarter than any animal not belonging to the Primatales order.
Two answer two of your posts in one, to save valuable space on this message board.
I tried looking in the mirror to see how I look, but there was no image reflected. I don't know what to make of that.
Anti-swinitism is a growing problem in this country. What is rarely spoken of, and I as somewhat of a Jew must reveal, is that some of the worst anti-swinitics are Jewish people.
Your claims that pigs are the most intelligent non primates reflects a lack of modesty and humility typical of a pig.
Just to show you that I harbor no ill feelings to you, I earlier thought of another way that you could continue with your imaginative names. At the end of each posting, you could sign it with the name that you would like to be addressed by. Examples include: piggy, cloven hoofs, unclean, porky, swine,
porkulent, as happy as a pig in .... , etc.
That is a complete lie. The Jew and the Muslim are the greatest human friends that a pig could have, and vegetarians and vegans. Because the porcomangites terminate the lives of thousands innocent pigs with their selfish feeding habits. It is the anti-pig stand of the Jews (and the other groups) that saves the lives of hundreds of thousands of pigs.
And pigs are not modest, we're not afraid to stuff ourselves like, well, pigs. We'll roll around in mud when we're hot regardless of what you humans say about that (wonder why I don't like those R-33 singles? No A/C and no mud!).
Before lights out and computers off in the ward, I just want to tell you, Notorious P.I.G., that your post just now initially had me fearing that I had started a holy war. Then when I saw where you were going, I laughed almost as much as I do when I write one of my posts. I really do feel secure leaving the message board in your capable hoofs.
good night all--- over and out--- they're playing he National Anthem over the PA.......
Th-th-the-th-th-the-th-th-the that's all, folks!:)
Check the NYC-DOT website for the dimensions.
I just checked, but it only lists the main span dimension, which I already have.
-- David
Chicago, IL
A clone of Hell Gate Bridge would work.
First I would like to object to people referring to
the Manhattan Bridge as the Manny Bridge. That
contraction would be appropriate only if it were the
Emanuel or Manuel Bridge.
Second, David mentioned the two pedestrian walkways.
It seems that part of the Manhattan Bridge's
problems arise from unbalanced forces due to mass
transit. Perhaps these forces could be
counterbalanced by reopening both pedestrian
walkways, allowing pedestrian traffic to be one way
on each side. Since these roadways are further from
the center of graveness, then perhaps they could be
contrapuntal forces that would that would create an
overall equa Librium.
Third, someone mentioned substituting an arched
bridge instead of a suspension bridge. My favorite
bridge in New York is the Hell Gate Bridge, which is
hardly used. This massive structure was built by
the brilliant engineers of the Pennsylvania
Railroad. It was built to last. Over the course of
a three day holiday weekend, they could jack the
Hell Gate Bridge up and float it down the river and
slip it in place of the Manhattan Bridge. I have
studied this problem, and I have anticipated that
someone is going to tell me that the Manhattan
Bridge span is over 400 feet longer than the Hell
Gate. This is a serious problem, but I believe with
a couple of cable come-alongs attached to Brooklyn
and Manhattan we could bring the two boroughs closer
together.**
The only serious problem is what to call the new
bridge. In homage to its origins, perhaps it could
be called the Gateway to Hell Bridge.
** With a large enough cable come-along Archimedes
claimed it might be possible to bring all the
boroughs together, thus eliminating any need for
bridges and tunnels. Boat traffic could be
redirected around the new truly unified City of New
York.
Better yet: just fill in the East River. (tongue held firmly in cheek)
Why not just compromise -- a pontoon bridge attatched to a rope, so you can pull it in whenever a boat has to pass.
Have you seen any of the new-school suspension bridges? They look real 21st century. One is going up in Boston (Todd Glickman can report on that one)...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Yeah, I just did some web-surfing and found some really cool photos. One of my favorites is the Dames Point Bridge in Jacksonville, Florida... It's a bit more conservative in design than some of the newer bridges now under construction in Europe and Japan, but this one is a favorite for sentimental reasons: I watched it get built, and a close friend of mine (who now lives in NYC, by the way) and I would drive over it for fun during our high school days. In fact, the odometer on my 1985 Chevette flipped over to 100,000 miles at the exact midpoint of this bridge. :-)
This bridge is the largest cable-stayed bridge in the Western Hemisphere, with a center span of 1300 feet (Manny-B is 1470 feet). More photos can be found at http://www.mikestrong.com/dames/.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
Found another pic of the Dames Point Bridge on the web, and I thought it was just too good to pass up. :-)
I'd pay good money to see a photograph of the Hell Gate Bridge's brooding presence during a similar lightning storm.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
Looks like the one they built over in Europe, between Gotheborg Sweden and the Copenhagen, Denmark suburbs. That one's longer, and has a tunnel section - and, YES, it has a two-track rail line on it.
Wayne
The bridge in Boston (which will replace the decrepit Charlestown Bridge) boasts an even more radical design, since the suspenders are attached to two pillars (not arches) with the traffic lanes going around them.
I wish NYC did at least 1/10th of the improvements they're making to downtown Boston...
I wish NYC did at least 1/10th of the improvements they're making to downtown Boston...
Boston's Big Dig is price that city must now pay for not having a Jane Jacobs around when the Central Artery was first proposed.
Luckily for New York City, Robert Moses was never sucessful in his efforts to plow an elevated expressway through Greenwich Village, so there is no need for another "Big Dig" project in lower Manhattan today.
-- David
Chicago, IL
What's the minimum vertical clearance for a BMT Division train?
-- David
Chicago, IL
As a Valentine's Day gift to WTC riders, the switches will be ready for use by Monday's rush hour--2 weeks early. I guess the contractor wanted that bonus. I just hope they did everything right and no trains get but on the ground there.
Anyway as a result of all this, the "C" returns, the "E" rusumes normal (PA-E\WTC),and the "B" goes back to normal as well. So this means no more R38's on Queens Blvd. or R46's on Fulton Street after Sunday. Those Fulton Street riders will surely miss the extra service provided by the "E".
As I understand it, the "contractor" was NYCT's in-house forces.
David
I agree. Let's hope the work was done right.
Not really. They won't miss the congestion caused by all those extra E trains which are clearly unneeded on Fulton St.
I beg to differ, the C service on the Fulton St Local is horrible at times. I think the E should continue service on the Fulton St. and terminate at Euclid and let the C continue to Rockaway park. But I am sure there are some complications about where the E would lay up its cars on the Euclid line?
Frank D - Queens Blvd Express
Sorry Frank, you won't see BOTH the C and E along Fulton Street. For starters, running the A, C and E through the Cranberry Tube is not feasible. You can run the E to Euclid and/or Howard Beach, while the C resumes the old AA route from 168 to World Trade. The E would go into WTC when the C quits.
I kind of liked seeing the E in Brooklyn and hearing the release of the NYAB air brakes that are on the Phase II R32's. I'll miss it.
I've ridden the E during rush hours in Brooklyn. It simply is too much service. The C line is more than adequate in servicing Fulton St. local riders. The bottleneck at Canal St where the E and A merged caused any a delay. Remember, the E runs on a much more frequent schedule than most other lines (every 4 minutes during rush hours, every 7.5 minutes otherwise).
The TA announced C service would resume on Monday.
What they didn't tell anyone is that (based on my ride home) E service to Brooklyn would end before today's PM rush hour. It was hell.
What? No E service to Euclid this afternoon?
There was a major problem with the E and F in Queens. That might explain the lack of E service in Brooklyn.
You can never have too much service. As I said above, the C service is horrible. The way Fulton St and Liberty Ave population is now, the current Express Stations passed Utica are not feasible. I used to live on Fulton St, with my father and we would catch the C from Rockaway Ave in the morning towards Manhattan, the wait time can be anywhere from 7 - 10 mins. At the same time you see the A passing at leastthree times. TO make things worst, the A isneverheld at an express stop if it passes a C at a previous local station. Same issue opposite direction. Maybe if the C ran more frequent, would not be as bad. I understand that the Cranberry Tube may not be able to handle the amount of traffic, but possibly the C only runs to Brookyln on the weekend and WTC weekday, and have the E run to Brooklyn weekday and WTC weekend.
Frank D - Queens Blvd Exp.
Did some railfanning thoughout the workday. Here is how it went:
A: Transferred from the L at Bway Jct. First of all there is "gates" and platform conductors. The A is like sardine city. I will never used the A in Bklyn during rush hours except for of course emergency reroutes if the 3 is not running. I only did it because my sister ask me to try it.
The transfer to the 3 at Bway-Nassau was open. I thought it was supposed to closed?????
J: During lunch hour, I took the J from Broad St. Took it across the Willy B and the express run to Myrtle. The express run is nice. It would be better if there was an express run to Eastern Pkwy. Chambers St need help. I took the M back from Myrtle and waiting there for a J that never came, I realized that it do need a rehab. Took the 4 from BB. Fulton, Broad and the Manhattan bound side of Canal look nice. Saw the trolley terminal at Essex. Willy B run was ok also.....
R: R32's was in full force on the Bway BMT. I always get a nice sounding female conductor. Always distinguish the IRT from the rest. An example is "Canal St. Transfer to the J,M,Z and the IRT#6." Her voice is clear whether is a R46 or R32. It seems like some of the switches are being replaced in certain areas. I hope express service returns and stay for good on that line.
Questions and Comments:
1. What is those two tracks on the right as the Queens bound J crosses them as it leaves Chambers? Where does it go?
2. I always was for a transfer between the 3 and L. After taken the A this morning, I strengthen my case. I know there will be disagreements on this but I think it is necessary.
3. What is up with that set up @ Essex? I believe that there is another station like that in the system but I am not sure. Willets Point comes to mind..........
4. Ressurect the Myrtle Ave El!!!!!!!
3TM
From what I understand the tracks you are talking about used to connect on to the Manhattan Bridge via the Nassau St Loop(tracks the the M uses on its turn around when it goes to Chambers St.As for the 3 and L X-fer at Livonia Ave it should be done (as it stands now the both station are hardly used ,open a x-fer point:more police presence and a safer station.Essex St is strictly work orders I think( the Middle track on Brooklyn bound side
The transfer at Livonia/Junius/Van Sinderin would be hard since alot of people use that crossover just to get from one side to the other. They would have to put a fare control fence down the center of the crossover to separate the fare paying customers from the non-fare-paying customers. That would make the crossover extremely narrow. Another idea would be to have paper transfers.
But there is an unused, closed mezzanine at the New Lots end at Junius. Open it up and build a walkway over to Livonia. A paper or Metrocard transfer could work as well also..........
3TM
I finally had the opportunity to operate the new Subway Simulator today. I took an R-46 from Queens to World trade Center and slightly missed just (2) 10-car marks. The video is great (albiet laser-disk)and some of the sounds (like switching tracks & flange noises) are realistic too. The only thing missing is the motion of the cab and that will be coming soon. Some nice features include:
1) If you don't hit the 10 car mark, the (C/R?) won't open the doors.
2) The instructor can program in various scenerios such as snow, debris on the tracks or a breakdown of various types.
3) Currently two simulators operating include a single handle controller (R-46) and a standard car like an R-62.
4( Three lines are programmed intot he 2 simulators. #4 line for the A division, The 'B' line for the B1 Division & The 'E' line for the B2 division. Still to come is the R-142 simulator which will use DVD technology instead of laser.
I just heard my insurance premium reduction from the Driver's Ed class is expiring, so I'll have to take it again. Does the simulator have, after half an hour of sheer bordom, someone jump in front of the train, a fire on the tracks, or some other surprise?
From what I'm told, any incident that can happen in the real world can be programed into the simulation.
Maybe they'll include a CPW express dash featuring the R-10s someday...
do u think they will ever have this as a play-station game?
I asked about that once before. I still think if all sub-talkers chipped in, we can buy our own. Someone will have to be in charge of scheduling so everyone gets a turn.
E MAIL ME FIRST WHEN THIS COMES OUT !!!
A Play-Station game would probably be a better simulation than this silly thing.
Out of curiousity, do the grade timers clear at all speeds and what happens to a bumping block if you go through one? I'd hardly think that they went that far with the video but I'd like to know, if you can ask around. I'm told that the yards are in there too. Is there compresses air inside the self lapping unit of the valve and guages?
Yo! where can i get this simulator? Please Email me at E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com
This simulator is a training tool used by the NYCTA - it's not available to us mere mortals. Sorry!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I ran those two simulators just before they came online officially.
It was entertaining, but the lack of cab motion and 2-d video (no
depth perception) made it difficult to judge speed and distance.
There is no air in the simulated brake valve which, particularly
for the ME43, is unsettling. I dumped it a few times looking for
full service. No self-lapper noises either.
Since the simulation is done by running a canned video at different speeds, timers ALWAYS clear. If only it were that way in the
real world!
Coney Island yard is the only one in there at this time. I'm quite sure that Jeff is correct about the timers although other video images are inter-active. For example, when you stop at the 10 car marker, you lose indication to simulate the doors opening & closing. However, if you do not hit the 10 car mark, the indication is never lost - simulating the C/R not opening the doors and presumably banging you in to control center. As a training tool, the simulator is not the end-all and Be all. But for those of us who don't get to operate the real thing as often as we'd like it's definitely the next best thing.
Steve, as I mentioned once before, just because you don't lose indication doesn't mean you missed the 10 car mark. It means that you didn't stop in exactly the same place that the TO who operated the film train did. As for the timers, Jeff is correct - they clear at any speed. Bumping blocks -- after making a stop at Utica Ave, you can take the train into the relay position toward the block, but you can't hit it: the film ends about10 feet short of the block.
I assume that the ten car mark is used for an 8 car R-46 since the length is the same. I seem to remember alternate markings in some of the stations I've been in?
I finally had the opportunity to operate the new Subway Simulator today. I took an R-46 from Queens to World trade Center and slightly missed just (2) 10-car marks. The video is great (albiet laser-disk)and some of the sounds (like switching tracks & flange noises) are realistic too. The only thing missing is the motion of the cab and that will be coming soon. Some nice features include:
1) If you don't hit the 10 car mark, the (C/R?) won't open the doors.
2) The instructor can program in various scenerios such as snow, debris on the tracks or a breakdown of various types.
3) Currently two simulators operating include a single handle controller (R-46) and a standard car like an R-62.
4( Three lines are programmed intot he 2 simulators. #4 line for the A division, The 'B' line for the B1 Division & The 'E' line for the B2 division. Still to come is the R-142 simulator which will use DVD technology instead of laser. If a version of this ends up as 'Play Station' Game, Then Sega will have a Mega-wibber.
Where did you do this simulator at?
Trevor
I've been using my picture collection, my new and great printer, and an assortment of other things to make subway signage magnets to hang around my room. Anyone have any suggestiosn on what signage would make a nice magnet?
The old IRT/IND/BMT Emblems, and the Route numbers/letters
How about an A sign from an original R-1/9 or R-10 roller curtain?
The multicolor Mylar bulkhead curtain rolls from early 1970s R16 and R32 *(and, yes, R38) cars would be nice. Nice bright colors, with a white circle around the letter. They even have such lost gems as "HH", "JJ", "MM" and "TT".
Wayne
A little over a year ago, there was an incident at Parsons Archer terminal on the 'E' line. A transit cleaner working out of Jamaica Yard was observed at about 5 AM at Parsons Archer Terminal, removing the wallet of a sleepng customer. 2 undercover cops observed the incident and arrested this dirtbag. The incident was covered by the Post and Daily News.
It seems that this was not the first time that this employee had been arrested while on duty. The last time,he was stopped in his private auto due to an equipment violation. On being stopped, it was found that this citizen had a suspended or revoked driver's license. Also, in his vehicle, this family man (according to Mr. Flake) had two prostitutes in his car.
Well, this employee was immediately suspended and has been so for over a year. At his trial, Mr. Flake (according to the police) testified to this gentleman's character. He also appealed to the jury to overlook the fact that this employee was caught red-handed by NYPD anti-crime police and consider that he's already been out of work for a year and has been punished enough. Well, the charges were dismissed and now this miscreant has begun the long process to win his job back. The arbitration was scheduled for 2/10/00. On 2/9/00, this man of character, according to Floyd Flake, called jamaica Maintenance Shop and threatened to kill all supervisors at the location.
This afternoon, this employee appeared for his tri-parte hearing. He was irate and uncontrolable. In fact, he was so out of control,the TWU requested an immediate adjournment. The next hearing will be in March and at that time, this loser may well win his job back. If that happens, every person on the E, F, G & R will be in danger of having their pocket picked or cut open.
Thank you Floyd
<>
Flake said that and he still wants the guy to get his job back? I know religious leaders preach tolerance, but Floyd's opening his public image up to some big problems down the road (especially if he wants to get back into politics) if this guy gets reinstated and goes off on somebody.
On 2/9/00, this man of character, according to Floyd Flake, called jamaica Maintenance Shop and threatened to kill all supervisors at the location.
I assume you mean that the above was said by the Rev. Flake. It's a little mis-punctuated, I think the way Steve means it is:
On 2/9/00, this [so called] "man of character", according to Floyd Flake, called jamaica Maintenance Shop and threatened to kill all supervisors at the location.
-Hank
Grammar ain't my strong suit but it was the suspended employee who called and threatened to kill members of supervision...
The only reason I can see why Flake is behind this guy is that he is a member of Flake's Church or something to that effect.
But he should cut this loser loose or it will cost him in votes later on.
Flake, the name says it all!!!
Peace,
Andee
As a member of Allen AME Church, I am apalled at all this bashing of a class person like Rev. Flake. Before you all make judgements about another man's character, you need to take time out to know the man himself. Dr. Rev. Floyd Flake and his church Allen AME has done a lot for the Southeast Queens community. He has several programs in place that promote the uplifting of people, and encourages the members of Allen to stop renting and buy houses. He has opened a housing development, a school, and a senior citizens center. All you have to do is take a drive down Merrick, Linden or Guy R. Brewer Blvds. to see what he has done, but of course, you won't dare venture south of Archer Avenue and into the largely black areas of St. Albans and South Jamaica. What have YOUR community leaders done??? How can you sit there and judge a man regarding a situation that you know very little about--except for what the media and police tell you (those aren't exactly reliable sources). If you weren't there during this incident, if you don't know the man involved and if you don't know Rev. Flake, don't pass judgement. You look foolish that way.
Please. Flake has always been a political opportunist. His championship of this man is no shock to anyone. Spare us, ok?
Wheather inspired by politics or not, you cannot deny what the man has done for the community. As far as I am concerned, as long as he supports his people while others like you rush to judgement.
I have to echo A-train's sentiments, what has YOUR leaders done in YOUR community?
Rush to judgement? Flake's been on the Queens political scene for decades, and I'm familiar with his record. I stand by what I said, reguardless of whatever you think he might have done for his community.
You shouldn't be trashing FF. After all he's a conservative and is likely to run as a Republican in the next mayoral election.
I thought you'd find him appealing, Mr. R16?
Doug aka BMTman
He isn't a Republican, nor is he a conservative. He's an opportunist.
I'll "trash" him for as long as I like.
And you'll look ignorant for as long as you "trash" someone you don't even know.
Excuse me, but as I've stated before, I am aware of who Mr. Flake is, and what he's done (or not done). So please stop repeating that I don't "know" him. I certainly do.
And I will stand by what I said as well. You should spend less time judging people and more time getting to know them. Go to his church it's at 110-31 Merrick Blvd., and when you leave I defy you to find anything negative about the experience.
Speaking of opportunists, the biggest one in the US is Mayor Guiliani. Trash him!
Save it for e-mail ...
Say what you will about Mr. Flake but if you fall asleep on the subway and wake up with your pockets slashed or your sneakers cut from your feet - you can thank Mr. Flake for supporting career criminals.
So now it's Flake's fault that there is crime in this city. You need to stop and think about what it is you're saying!!
No genius!!! I didn't blame Mr. Flake for crime in the city and there is no way you can twist my words to come out that way. The individual that mr. Flake went to bat for preys on working people who happen to fall asleet on the subway. He picks their pockets. He cuts their trousers. He cuts the laces on their sneakers or shoes and takes them too. This individual was caught in the act by 2 undercover police officers. He should be sent through the criminal justice system like any other criminal.
What part of this do you disagree with?
In addition this criminal was on duty as a NYCT employee at the time he committed his criminal act. He was AWOL from his work location. He was not performing his assigned duties. He used his position as a NYCT employee to further his criminal enterprise. He has threatened to kill 30 or 40 supervisors & union members.He should lose his job for his actions.
With which part do you not agree with?
Floyd Flake has interceded on this individual's behalf. He feels that the 1 year+ suspension is punishment enough. Yet yesterday this individual was so out of control that the union reps. could not deal with him. Does this sound like a man who has been punished enough? Does this sound like a man who has learned his lesson? Does this sound like a man who has seen the light? I feel that Mr. Flake has erred in his judgement. I think that Mr. Flake, if he gets his way, will return a dangerous predator back into the subways where he will return to his criminal enterprises. Now, I don't know when the magical transformation took place but I was not aware that congress has deemed Floyd Flake above criticism. Until then or until there is a presidential decree stating such, don't you or any of your bretherand tell me who i can or can not criticize if i feel i have just cause. In this case - I have ample just cause.
HEY DUDE, THIS ISN'T BUS TALK. SO LET ME SQUASH THIS RIGHT NOW BEFORE DAVID SHUTS US DOWN TOO.
You make some valid points, most of which I agree with. All I am saying is stop rushing to judgement and condemning an overall good man like Dr. Rev. Floyd Flake. He has helped me grow both spiritually and personally. So he's taken an unpopular position in this case. Who cares?? Remember this Steve, "There has never been a statue dedicated to a critic (that would be you)." There have been statues dedicated to those willing to go out on a limb and take an unpopular position on a particular issue. I for one would not support this clown, but I also would not condemn Rev. Flake for doing so. His record speaks for itself, and maybe he sees something that we don't. The bottom line is that I have NO problem with what Rev. Flake is doing. Despite the kind of dirt-bag this a-hole seems to be, he does deserve the right to due process and fair treatment.
So you see, we happen to agree with the basic premise here. I just don't agree with you and everyone else attacking Rev. Flake. Since when has he operated a train or opened doors anyway. :) I was shocked to see his name here. Lets get back to trains!!!
Peace and God Bless, Steve.
First of all, I'm not Dude or Bro or any other ebonic handle. Second, I did not trash Rev. Flake. I simply reported about one incident and carefully stated that this was not first-hand information. If it is true, i think Mr. Flake has done a dis-service to his community and his credibility as acivic leader. As I said before, Mr. Flake is a mortal and as such he's capable of erring and is not immune to criticism.
It's time that certain groups realize that the American criminal justice system is rapidly being reduced to a spectator sport where guilty people (Like O.J. Simpson) are found not guilty because of the 'team' he is on. Where we let felons go to even the score of past injustices. Where juries consider things not admitted into evidence and where people are freed regardless or the crime because, "he's a bro" or because "he's good people."
To keep it transit-relavent, this gentleman may never slash your pockets or steal your shoes. You may never be a direct victim of his crime. But you still pay for it in court & law enforcement costs. You still may have gotten on an R or G train that this person was supposed to clean and hadn't. Reverend Flake has excused the crime and the dereliction of duty because this person was a member of his congregation. Do we forgive Charles manson if a Priest speaks up for him in court? Would you have forgiven Jeffery Dahmer if his minister came to court? What about Joel Steinberg? DO we forgive his manslaughter if his spiritual leader comes to court and says how remorseful he is? The seperation of Church and State is constitutionally mandated. It's time we enforced it in the courts. It's time too that we make the criminal justice system truly color blind.
Like I said, I am not saying anything further on the subject that's it. My point again was, while I agree that aiding a subway felon is a bit of a questionable move, Floyd Flake is no Al Sharpton. He is not a trouble maker, however maybe this time he should've stayed of it. But the blasting of the man's character by ChrisR16 (whom I will e-mail) is simply unfair. You sounded like you were headed in the same direction as Chris. If I misunderstood you, I apoligize, and I also apologize for the comment about you not knowing much about trains (pretty funny you have to admit though). Rev. Flake is a good man who may have made a mistake. We will never know until all the facts are out. So calm down, and let's sqaush this and be cool, ok?
EVERY politician in recent memory is an opportunist, so what?
Whatever!!!! I'm really sick and tired of niave people like you. I think it's pretty obvious why Flake pled for this mental midget. If flake wanted to do something for his community he would:
1) Let the justice system work and get a dangerous person off the streets
2) Teach his 'flock' that people need to be held accountable for their actions.
3) Find someone in his congregation that needs an $18/hour job and steer him/her to the recently open position.
Start to think like a man instead of a simpleton.
Whatever!!!! I am really sick of people like yourselves who take each and every opportunity to put down a successful person who goes out and does things for his community. We all aren't perfect you know, and Flake does have his faults. But to make him out to be a bad person isn't fair--especially if you don't know the man!
So smarten up and talk about trains--a subject you know very little about to begin with!
Oooouch! :-o
LOL
Ouch, that hurt. Tell ya what. I have 30 seconds. tell us all everything you know about trains.
LMAO ...
30 seconds sounds like overkill. I can hear a pin drop.
"cricket"
"Cricket"
"Cricket"
Um....
What has Steve said that justifies that little rant? He rightfully blasted Mr. Flake for championing a violent criminal who wants his TA job back after being caught red-handed commiting theft. Is Steve supposed to feel guilty about that? Does Mr. Flake deserve immunity from criticizm merely because he's a minister? Because he's black?
If you like Mr. Flake, then fine. But many of us don't. I'll continue to portray the man for what he is: a 2-faced political opportunist who only cares about his own political future.
(please respond to this via e-mail, I won't be posting to Subtalk on this subject again).
You left out what I belive to be an extremely important fact in this case. The crime was committed while the perpetrator was ON DUTY WORKING FOR THE TA.
-Hank
I thought that was understood. Sorry.
Maybe when I get busted commiting a felony while on the job I'll have someone like Flake to bail me out. America, what a country!
Yeah, you always have to get the last word in, don't you Mr. R-16...
Rev. Flake sounds like a wonderful human being. Not like a certain other, chubby, cleric of color. Still, going to bat for someone who picks people's pockets may not have been his greatest contribution to the community.
This whole discussion points out the need to focus on the particular action instead of making general evaluations about the man. Except of course for that overweight rabble rouser from Brooklyn who can't seem to find enough trouble to stir up there and has been exporting it all over town.
This whole discussion points out the need to focus on the particular action instead of making general evaluations about the man.
Well put. Until this thread started I'd never heard of Floyd Flake - not being from the City the vagaries of its local politics often escape me. But even when I was living 500 miles away I'd heard of the rabble rouser.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No one doubts that Rev. Flake has done a lot for his community. But that does not mean that he's doing the right thing in supporting that larcenous employee. Even the best-intentioned people make mistakes, and Rev. Flake's made a doozy.
Flake has been leaning leftward after a long flirtation with Giuliani-style Republicanism...
YO i was born and raised in Brooklyn NY yo. I'm down south now in school ,n shit, i miss NY like I miss BIG! yo i never appreciated the trains till i left kid.. for real! down south niccas need cars n shit. UP in NY, thats a (want). you could survive w/ out it, and still do your thing. Aint nothing touchin NY kid.... we da center of da world, and a nicca cant wait ta get back!!!!! one , Dre Hova.
A celebration for Amtrak
By Jane Holtz Kay
-- David
Chicago, IL
Hooray! Let's hope those with the power to do something pay attention.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just finished reading the boston globe column. It should be sent to every politician to wake them up. Great article!!
Just finished reading the boston globe column. It should be sent to every politician to wake them up. Great article!!
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but the article notes Massachusetts' two liberal Senators, Kennedy and Kerry, didn't attend. Bill Clinton has not been much of a supporter of mass transit or Amtrak.
Where is the core support for intercity train service?
Just heard it on the radio. C-train will be back on Monday.
Peace,
Andee
Three cheers to the MTA. This means, I hope, that the Concourse will get back the B train.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Charlie, does your father own the Idle Hour?
SUBWAYSURF, yes he does. I will not give any other info on that. Remember this is subway talk.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Re: remember, this is subway talk: Since when has that ever stopped anybody here?? Also, what is the service pattern going to be? Are they finished with that switch already?
Or hit the ceiling! LOL
Hey I know that place too. Live around the block.
Joe C
Yes it does mean we get the "B" train back. But, we never lost it.
Peace,
Andee
Once and for all, which is better: eliminating service and having a massive disruption for weeks or months, or maintaining service and having a substantial disruption go on for years and years?
Maybe they should just tear the Manny B down and replace it.
I'd have to go with the former.
Peace,
Andee
A new Manhattan Bridge would take 5+ years to build at a minimum. This is too long to go without any service over it. Better to have only 2 tracks available for 20+ years then none for 5.
The Manhattan can only realistically be replaced with a tunnel, to avoid the long period without rail (and truck) access to downtown Brooklyn. Land's too expensive to build a new bridge next to the Manny B, so you would have to tear down the old one first and put the new one right in the same spot.
A tunnel wouldn't have that problem, and you could build both tubes as dual levels, with car, bus and trucks above, while below there could be one two-track tube for the subway (for the D/N/Q, while building the Rutgers connection to DeKalb for the B), while the other could be used to connect the LIRR Flatbush Ave. terminal to lower Manhattan (running it east of the maze of downtown Brooklyn subway tunnels from Flatbush and Atlantic to the East River).
The subway tracks could run up Pike Street to Canal, then turn west to hook in with the Grand Street and Broadway/Canal stations, while the LIRR tracks could turn west at Pike and Madison and head over to the Fulton/Water Street area.
A little while ago there was a thread regarding best looking subway car types. Well, my curiosity has gotten the better of me and I was wondering -- What type(s) of cars (of those currently in service) do you consider the most comfortable to ride in??? Favorite seats, etc.,
Peace,
Andee
My favorite is (are) the R-44/46.
Peace,
Andee
Your favorite is the R44/46???? There's something in your coffee, pal. I guess you're under 6 feet tall, because the seats on those cars absolutely SUCK if you're tall. It is next to impossible to be comfortable in those cars--someone always tries to squeeze in the middle of the three seaters, your knees are up agains the seat in front of you when sitting by a window, and you see people sitting sideways in the aisle seat next to the window all the time. You call those cars comfortable?
For me it's flat bench seats all the way (except for the R40. The seats are too flat). Why do you think they're going back to benches on the R142/142A/143?
I do not drink coffee...
I am 6' 3" / 240 lbs....
I was refering more to the quality of the ride more than anything else...
You can sit facing forward....as opposed to sideways (yuch)...
Peace,
Andee
02/11/2000
My favorite "comfortable" subway cars are as follows:
THE PAST - The BMT Standard, R1-9 and D-Type.
I am partial to cross seating as opposed to bench seating. I would rather lookout the window facing the right way rather than look at my fellow passengers! The old heavyweights allways gave a good ride. The Standards weren't speedsters, but I wasn't in a rush to get from point A to point B.
THE PRESENT - R-46, 44, 68A
The R-46's are comfortable and very quiet, especially when the debuted with the original Rockwell HPT-2 trucks. The R-44's aren't as good but not bad. The R-68A's don't line up with the R-46 but seem to be better than the R-68 and 68-1's. Sorry Wayne, I detest the seats in the R-40S and 40M's. A chiropractors dream and a passengers nightmare. Something about constantly sliding forward doesn't sit well (pun) with me. The R-62 and 62A seats are a joke also.
Bill Newkirk
It was a tie between the AB standards and the Triplex, lots of room, Today forget it, plastic. Out of town Bart still soft seats, Cleveland was not too bad either
The most comfortable car type I've been in are the BART C2 cars. The least comfortable was the Vancouver Sky-Train: plastic, and too tiny for any human being to fit in.
You'll NEVER find me sitting down aboard a Slant R40; the seats are detestable and despicable, most uncomfortable ones since the benches in the R-7/R-9s. I'll always be found at the front window, enjoying the view.
Wayne
I have sent you an R-40 picture (via e-mail) that I think you will appreciate.
Peace,
Andee
the r/44 State of the art cars had a set touring the country, one had cushin seats and an unusual seating arrangement including a table .I have a "hand out " somewhere in my "good thinks to save "file if i can only find it.
The cars you speak of were not R-44's they were the SOAC (state of the art cars) featured elsewhere on this site. Save that hand out though it is a collectable.
Peace,
Andee
I'm over 6' tall, and I find it very easy to doze off on a front-facing seat of an R-44 or 46. I used to take the 'E' or 'F' home in the wee hours after a night of bar-hopping in the Village in my bachelor days of the eighties. The only way I could stay awake all the way to Jackson Heights was to sit facing backwards. It usually helped.
Of course, the seven or eight beers I would routinely consume would NEVER figure into this at all.
Thank You...
remember do not drive your car after drinking !!! 502 BLUES DRINKING AND DRIVING D.U.I.
Yeah, you might hit a bump and spill your drink!!!
What you say is true about the seating arrangement on the R-44, R-46, R-68 or R-68A. However the comfort is determined by more than the seat. At 91,000 Lbs, the R-46 is the heaviest revenue car to use GE propulsion on the NYCT system. In my opinion, this added weight affsets the initial d-brake current spike that is symtomatic of the SCM-1 controller. The result is smoother stops than on lighter cars using GE controllers. Wouldn't you agree with that MR. J/Z? Also, do you feel a difference with the modulated motor arrangement in the AC on the R-32 Phase II and R-42 as opposed to the non-modulated R-44 and R-46 classes?
I prefer longitudinal seating (like on the 1,2,3,J,M,Z etc. You dont get trapped agains the wall. The only problem with that type of seats is lack of arm rests in the middle which would also prevent someone from lying down(comfortably) and thusly blocking an entire section of seats.
The R46. They accelerate and de-celerate smoothly, and are rather quiet on the inside so as not to shout if you want to have a conversation with someone.
Actually take another ride, J/Z. Really compare the ride quality of the R44 to the rest of the fleet. They are absoultely the quietest cars on the system, and maybe the smoothest. The R46 just a little less so. The 68/68A even less. Forget the R62/62A. They are awful. The a/c craps out in the summer as the cars fill up, and you get zilch if you are at the ends of the car. Seats are not meant for adults. The low ceilings and handrails make for a very claustrophobic feel. NAd any car with "mirrored" walls and bright glaring lights makes for a very uncomfortable appearance. What were the builders thinking! But
of course, if you like lying down, then flat benches are the way to go.
Since I stand 99% of the time on a train, usually at the railfan window, I don't profess an opinion on seat comfort. I'm willing to bet that some of our BMT veterans would vote for the Triplex or possibly the BMT standard. Passenger comfort was something the BMT actually took into consideration.
I'd vote for the Standard! They may not have had the softest seats, but they just seemed to be spacious. Even in rush hour, you never felt crowded or packed in, in a Standard.
Can you imagine what the soft mohair seats of the Bluebird must have felt like? Probably, that was the most comfortable car ever to ride the rails.
Bluebird 1940-1957, rest in peace. Only in my dreams do I see you.
Wayne
There were some very innovative minds on the BMT. In their day, the Bluebirds were probably second to none in terms of passenger comfort. The multis would have run away from them, however, in terms of speed. The Bluebirds topped out at 39 mph, although they got there quickly, while the multis maxed out at an R-10-like 58 mph.
R-40.
Just kidding. R-32, R-38, R-42, and the Redbirds.
Nothing beat the old BMT Triplexes.
Standards weren't too bad, either.
-- Ed Sachs
Nothing beat the old BMT Triplexes.
Standards weren't too bad, either.
Agreed!!! But Although I never rode it, the mohair upholstered seats of the BMT Bluebird must have beat just about any other car -- past, present AND future.... I just can't get comfortable in fiberglass...
www.bmt-lines.com
Molded fiberglass is acceptable, when it pretty much fits to a body thats not younger than age 10 (R-62 Kawasaki), or for an anorexic version of Mini-me (R-40/R-40M). The Redbird seats are OK, while the R-46s are the best of today, though the three-across seats on the BMT Standards have yet to be matched.
I am truely sorry that I missed the bluebirds, from what I've learned here they must have been something else.
So much for a deprived life, growing up in the Bronx.
Peace,
Andee
Certainly NOT the Slant R40 or the R40M.
Most comfortable seats I ever rode in were the few red leatherette seats remaining in some of the R-7 and R-7A cars. The R44 and R46 seats are OK too. Worst ever (worse even than the R40/R40M) were the fiberglas benches they installed in the R-7A and R-9 cars in the Eastern Division back in the late 1960s. Sheer torture.
Wayne
Those red seats were very comfortable. I think they had a few on the standards and the "Q" cars as well. If I'm not mistaken they replaced the cane seats that needed replacement after they stopped making them. I thought the cane seats were uncomfortable even though I have one in my basement from one of the "Q" cars on the last day of the Myrtle.
My favorite train seats had to be the seats (I think they were leather) on the PRE M-1 LIRR cars. You know, the ones that were reversible. You really sank into those seats!! I thought it was terrible when they replaced the 1955 MU cars (currently on the old diesels) with the M1/3 type seats.
>>>A little while ago there was a thread regarding best looking subway car types. Well, my curiosity has
gotten the better of me and I was wondering -- What type(s) of cars (of those currently in service) do
you consider the most comfortable to ride in??? Favorite seats, etc., <<<
Any BMT/IND car with bench-type seats, like the R40 slants. IRT bench type seats are in cars that are too small in rush hours.
At the same time, the R44s and R46's are way too cramped during rush hours...because the seating juts out into the aisles.
www.forgotten-ny.com
At 93+ thousand Lbs, the R-68/R-68A are the smoothest riding cars. The R-46 has better insulation than the rest and is the quietest. It's also one of the best for climate control. The R-44 would be a close second if it were not due to the harsh braking due to poor blending. The worst riding cars are the Corona R-36 cars. There's too much slop in the draw bars, most likely due to worn trunion bolts.
[At 93+ thousand Lbs, the R-68/R-68A are the smoothest riding cars.]
At a top speed of about 5 mph, it's not hard for the hippos to ride smoothly :-)
Not quite as heavy as a typical BMT standard, but it comes close.
Most comfortable car ANY TIME YOU CAN GET A SEAT AT 42nd ST IN ANY DIRECTION DURING RUSH HOURS
A bombardier MR-73. If you have ridden one, you would know.
If your on a Manhattan Bound train and you're facing the front of the train and you look to your right, right before you're about to go underground again on the Manhattan side, you'll see large graffitti which says: "WELCOME TO THE WASTELAND." The letters must about 4 feet tall. I think it's terribly embarrasing to Manhattan to have this welcome message on this building for people from Brooklyn. What can I do to get the city to remove it?
Maybe they should replace "Welcome to the Wasteland" with "Welcome to the place that's so rich you can't afford to live there."
it's upsetting that the williamsburg bridge has less graffiti then the mahattan bridge. guess the city doesnt care much.
I guess I have a different sense of humour.
I'm also outraged at the extreme amount of graffiti present in the area where the N train goes into the East River tunnel at Queensbridge. There's graffiti on the Queensboro Bridge structure as well as on the cement walls leading into the tunnel. I wish that there was a "graffiti hotline" we could call to rid ourselves of this eyesore.
Yeah, but the Queensboro Bridge is going to be with us for a long time to come :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
GET A LIFE
I have been reading posts that talk about what the subway system was like during the 60's and 70's. Was there a change in the last 20 years? let's review:
Stations-somewhat cleaner. Less graffiti and if graffiti, stations are cleaned within 72 hours.
Trains-in the 70's, graffiti marked up inside and outside the trains(and while some looked nice, espcially the artwork, others were sloppy). Today, scratched windows cover almost 99% of the system. While it's not marker graffiti, it still makes the subway looks bad.(marker graffiti is on the "M","Q" and "J" lines).
The cars-IRT cars are rusting, as well as a few of the R40 slant cars. the rest of them do not look their age at all.
The future-if the new cars comning this year are not scratched up,, the future looks much brighter.
sorry about the long post, guys.
On the downside, the trains have been slowed down, which sucks, plain and simple. It makes for a booooo-rinnnnng express run.
dont go to atlanta or here in los angeles maybe san francisco the newer rail systems built after
the BART system they operate on three speeds only ( especially atlanta ) SLOW, SLOWER ,STOP!!!
Chicago can be fast, except for the numerous slow zones where the structure or the track is falling apart because of deferred maintence on the part of the CTA. But besides that, trains operate at full speed (55 MPH, sometimes 58) most of the time.
Except the noise level in the subway portions is intolerable. If you thought the R-10s were loud...
Come to DC. This morning, I went from Friendship Heights to Grosvenor and my operator went at least 70 MPH except to stop and while leaving stations. Where the speed limit was lower than 75, he went the maximum.
isn't DC ATO?
Yes, but I think they are in manual mode right now. They're having problems getting the ATO to function right.
They are, but they have been operating in manual mode for quite some time now. As I discovered last weekend, some operators are far more competent than others too - the difference was substantial!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Denver's light rail trains get up to 55 mph on the private ROW.
Incidentally, I drove down Santa Fe Drive all the way from I-25 to Mineral Ave. yesterday to see how much progress they've made on the new terminus. Not a whole lot, I'm afraid. There is a windscreen in place at the loading area, but no canopies have been installed. The pedestrian bridge from the Park'n'Ride lot to the loading area isn't there yet, either, although you can see where it will go. It's probably going to be a prefabricated steel structure which will be lowered in place by crane.
The Southwest Corridor is still scheduled to open five months from today, on July 14.
My writeup on Denver's light rail will be coming soon.
How come there isn't a crossover between track 3 and track 4? It seems like a pain to go all way around the whole system to get a train over there, or vice versa. Or, is there always a train on track 4 and tracks 1 or 3?
i think there was a way to connect from the 7th avenue express and/or local tracks to connect with the downtown lexington avenue loxcal track from grad central. that would have been the ultimate subway line. wonder why it didn't occur.
Am I missing something here. The line was not built as a shuttle. The line went up from City Hall, up the east side then west to Broadway and north. The shuttle only came about after the east side line was built up Lexington Avenue and the Broadway side was built down 7th Avenue. All 4 tracks did connect at one point before the additional construction. If you are referring to something else then please disregard what I just wrote.
Yeah, 7th Ave/Bway Local/exp. did connect to Lexington. That's the orignial IRT line segment. I'm talking about the shuttle right now. Track 4 connects to 7th Ave., while tracks 1 and 3 connect to Lexington. What I was asking is that why track 4 and 3 aren't connected by a crossover.
It did, when first constructed.
-Hank
There is currently no physical connection between Tracks 3 and 4, the former northbound express and local tracks on the original mainline. Track 3 does have switches to Track 1, which is tied to the southbound Lex local track.
Let's try this again. Apparently, it was felt that such a connection wasn't needed or wouldn't be particularly useful. It would come in handy for emergency reroutes; however, a train would have to do some forward-reverse maneuvering besides switching.
Rob: It probably has to do with the frugalness of the IRT. In 1912 there was a switch from Tk 3 to Tk 2 and another from Tk 2 to Tk 1.
Tk 2 also had a short stub for storing the "Mineola." There was no switch from Tk 4 to Tk 3. When the shuttle was created it was cheaper to continue using the Tk 4 connection at Times Square rather then build a new switch at Grand Central. Today there is no longer a connection to Tk 2 but simply a long switch going from Tk 3 to Tk 1.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Does anyone here know if there is a page like this one about airlines and such???
There is a newsgroup called misc.transport.air-industry
Does anyone here know if there is a page like this one about airlines and such???
Try www.amtrak.com.
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
When I visited eBay, I found an interesting item. There is a photo of R62 1521 on Grand Central Shuttle. Clearly 1521 was converted to full-width cab.
I am pretty curious about this photo. When were R62 trains on Grand Central Shuttle? Thanks for the info.
Chaohwa
All R62 whose unit numbers end in 1, 5, 6 and 0 have been converted to full-width cabs, with the exceptions of #1435 (badly damaged and awaiting disposition) and #1440 (a total wreck). #1438 is also a full-width cab car, replacing #1435 in the #1431-2-3-4 bunch.
Wayne
The R62'S from the No.4 Line where used on the Shuttle before they where linked which was in the Early 90's. Then the R62A'S from the No.6 were used there before they were linked and now to current day the cars on the No.3 Line is used. However I believe the No.4 Line Management is still in control of the 42 Street Shuttle Operations but Livonia Yard controls the equipment. Also Grand Centrol tower is in control of the Shuttle.
Anyone know where in New York I can pick up a copy of The Taking of Pelham 123 video
Simon
Swindon UK
Simon, I know the the video "Taking of Pelham One Two Three" is a video that is currently in print. It is listed in the current Critic's Choice catalog, as well as Columbia House. It can be ordered very easily by mail. I even had an extra copy of it until a month ago. It should be available from any decent size video store such as SunCoast etc.
I hope you were not flying to New York just to buy that video!
It's coming to DVD! (The 1970's movie, that is)
-Hank
It was a close run thing, trip to New York or a DVD player. New Yorj won. Thanks for the info.
i've been looking for this title for ages thanks!
The Taking of Pelham 123 was shown on a local station in Hawaii Today, enjoyed it again, in fact I taped it.
The TV version has most of the four-letter words omitted. The mayor's "s--t, piss, f--k" was deleted, and Rico Patrone's "even great men have to pee" got snipped.
BTW, if there are any Home Improvement fans out there, Mr. Brown is played by none other than Wilson Wilson himself, Earl Hindman.
They cut alot more than that when they show it on TV (in most cases) the original running time of this movie is somewhere around 2 hours 20 minutes (most tv stations show it it a 2 hour window and that WITH commercials). The only way to see the whole movie is on video.
Peace,
Andee
The only way to see ANY great movie is on video, or AMC. Even better, make sure it's the letterbox version. Even more better is to see it in the theatre.
Alan Glick
I have a video version of Pelham, and it clocks in at 1 hour and 45 minutes. The TV version isn't drastically abridged save for a few snips here and there, mostly for the porpose of omitting four-letter words. For instance, in the scene where Frank Corrall (Dick O'Neal) tries to raise Pelham for the first time, the last part (Pelham 1-2-3, where the $%@# are you?) is clipped off the TV version.
02/14/2000
I picked up a copy of this video at the 6th Avenue (bet. 24th & 25th sts.)flea market about 6 years ago. It cost me $5.00 ,sealed, brand new! It is MGM/UA video #M301524 and running time is approx. 1hr. and 55 minutes.
Bill Newkirk
I think I have a twin to the copy that you picked up six years ago. The jacket says 1hr 44min. The tape label says 1hr 55min. I will watch it tonight to see just how long it really is.
I think I have a twin to the copy that you picked up six years ago. The jacket says 1hr 44min. The tape label says 1hr 55min. I will watch it tonight to see just how long it really is.
Bill,
I just watched and timed out subject movie, and I came up with 1hr and 45min from start of the tape to the end of the credits. There were no previews before the movie.
It was good to see the movie again, first time in about five years. I was surprised to see how much detail that I had forgotten.
02/15/2000
Karl B,
I guess they made a boo boo when printing the label.
One thing still puzzles me is that subway station scene where a train behind Pelham 1-2-3 is detained at a station while the tall black Transit PD Captain radios command. I still can't figure which station that is even though there is a gap between the car and platform. I can't identify which division it is judging by the tilework.
Bill Newkirk
I believe it is Court Street, with a fake IRT frieze pasted to the wall and the little black captions covered with white.
Wayne
The tilework appears to be IND-style, all right. Did you notice how the camera never focused on the wall across the track?
While the station could very well have been Court St., I have second thoughts. For one thing, the station in the movie has fluorescent lighting, something Court St. has never had. OK, what about one of the outer platforms at Hoyt-Schermerhorn? Possible, but once again, they never received fluorescent lighting, either. In any event, if either station was used, they must have put up a fake wall on the platform. A long shot would be the lower level at 42nd St., but it's unlikely.
More food for thought: in the movie, the nine remaining cars of the train are never seen once the first car was cut loose.
Even at 51st St., although the station appears to be correct, there is a gap between the side of the train and the platform edge.
Bill,
I've been gone too long to hope to tell you where the station really was. I was confused from the story line as to how it could be 28th St, with a gap in front of the train, the remaining nine cars of the hyjacked train, another gap between, and then finally the single car. Wouldn't you have thought that the single car should have been all but into the 23rd St station?
Karl B
HUH? I've got Leonard Maltin's 2000 Movie and Video Guide in front of me. It lists the running time as 104 minutes, or one hour and 44 minutes. That's the run time of the film as it was shown on the Encore cable service about five years ago. Maltin's book would have noted any "longer" versions or "director's cuts."
No problem!
Also, I hope you know that many films in the US that went to video are in the NTSC format, not PAL. A local dealer in England should be able to get a copy in PAL foramt.
One of My Favorite NY Subway Films Filmed Entirely in The NY City
Subway System,Released to Theatres in 1974,Pelham Tells The Story of
4 Gunmen who Hijack a NY City Subway Train(The No.6) and Hold 18 Pass-engers Hostaage and Gives The Authorites a 1 Hour Deadline to Pay A
1 Million Dollar Ransom and For Every Minute Past The Deadline That
They Don't Pay That 1 Hostage will Be Shot Dead!!,The Late Actors Rob-ert Shaw & Martin Balsam Were Great Playing 2 of The 4 Hijackers and
Walter Matthau was Superb as Transit Cop Lt.Garber!!.David Shire's
Compelling Jazz Score Soundtrack 4 This Film was Excellent,For All
Fans!!,The Pelham Soundtrack is Available in NY City at Footlight
Records located on E.12th Street Nr. 4th Avenue and Can Be Reached by
Subway By The 4,5,& 6 at 14th Street/Union Square,The CD Soundtrack
Goes For Around $16.00 In That Neighborhood,But It's Surely a Collect-
ors Item for Any Die-Hard "Pelham" Fan like Myself!!!.
With a multi-system VCR, DVD player, or TV, it's not a problem.
-Hank
Nearly all new VCR's sold in the UK now play back in NTSC format. Which means we can enjoy films bought in the US.
Simon
Swindon UK
That's nice to know. There used to be that "Iron Road" that divided England\Europe from America/Canada/Japan. Now if VCRs sold in the states would play PAL tapes (I bought a new one in 1999 and it's strictly NTSC. There are many quality tram/light rail/railroad tapes that are unavilable in NTSC, since they were produced for the PAL market.
There are VCRs sold here that will play in the various PAL and SECAM (France, E. Europe and ex-Soviet states) formats. But you'll have to look hard for them...some "tourist-trade" electronics stores like the ones in Times Square may be able to order them. There's a store in College Park MD that has several models of multi-system VCRs. Also, I think that GO-Video (makers of dual-deck VCRs) manufactures "multis."
Dont forget the French Connection had some really good chase scenes filmed in and around the subway and West End line.
French Connection 1 and 2 were on the telly last week - great films.
Simon
Swindon UK
Don't care much for French Connection 2. Wasn't that by a different director? Also, no subway or el scenes (if I remember correctly).
Alan Glick
French Connection II takes place almost totally in Marsailles. It was predictable with less excitement than the original. In the last scene, Popeye Doyle gets his man.
Now everyone in the UK is going to think that rideing the subway in NYC is dangerous again. At least we don t have fires on our subways that killed dozens of people
Lets all hope you do not suffer the same fate or anything similar to what happened at Kings Cross. Some valuable lessons were learned and things ahve greatly improved. London Undergroud is very safe to travel on at any time of the day.
Simon
Swindon UK
Aw, man...low blow! The Underground may have had fires, but the NYC subway has had the Union Square and Kendra Webdale incidents.
Still a great film, the bars scene is the best "are you going to drink that green .... ?"
"FC2" was directed by John Frankenheimer, who did "The Manchurian Candidate" but who more recently seemed to get stuck with flop sequels to great movies.
No Karl I need a new copy of the Warriors. Seriously I ma on Subway Tour No6, can't wait! Thanks for the info.
try reel.com
Gents Ladies,
following the end of passenger use of 1959/1962 Tube stock on January 27th this year I am pleased to report that the 7 car set painted in
'heritage' color has been preserved (well 4 cars of it!)
The 4 car set:
1044-2044-9045-1045
is rumoured to have been acquired by the Cravens preservation group (who also own and operate
a 1960 stock 3 car unit (3906-4927-3907)
and are also the owners of 1962 stock 4 car unit (1506-2506-9507-1507)
which is currently being renovated.)
.
The other painted 3 cars of the 'heritage' set are set to be scrapped :^(.
(1030-2030-1031.)
The only other railfan unit (operational) is the superb 1938 stock
train owned by the London Transport Museum and recently overhauled/repainted, cars being 10012-012256-12048-11012
which is currently kept at the NEW depot museum at Acton Town.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
does anyone know specifics about what happened in Queens this afternoon?
I don't know but It's nearly tied for my second longest commute ever. I was initially happy to get an F as soon as I hit the station at 34th. Except it just sat in the station. I figured what the heck, usually when this happens I take the 7 and it's not too bad. So I grabbed a Q and figured I'd get the 7 at 42nd, take it to 74th, and everything would be good. Wrong. The passageway to the 7 from the 6th avenue line was clogged with mobs and mobs of people. So I exited and walked to grand central where I got on the front without any problems. I suppose the fact that the Counductor was closing down the back section when I came down the stairs, and that I was able to walk to the front of the train and get on before he even attempted to close the front, should have been a sign. Anyhow, we get to 74th and the platform is mobbed. I don't know if anyone was making it down the stairs but from where I stood we didn't move at all. After 4 trains had come I'd moved a little over a car length. So I got on the next train, took it to Junction Blvd, and walked from there to Queens Blvd. Thank god friday is dress down day :)
Police Investigation with power off on all 4 tracks at Roosevelt. Seems that a robbery took place, suspects ran onto the tracks while trying to flee police. Police ordered power off so they could search the tracks.
I dunno if LIRR still does freight, but at the Queens village station on the Hempstead line, I saw a GP-38-2 that belonged to the LIRR pulling a series of CSX and other freight cars on the Express Track. The Trackworker says it was probably headed for the Sunnyside Railyard. If anyone knows about this, please Email me and let me know. At E7TRAINMANNYC24@AOL.com Thank you
No. The LIRR freight operation has been leased to the New York and Atlantic railway.
-Hank
LIRR does not operate the freights any more. They are run by the New York & Atlantic. They are based at the former LIRR Fresh Pond yard.
You may siee an LIRR GP38-2 or MP15AC on a freight nowadays, as NY&A has bought a few of them, but has NOT repainted all that they bouht yet. NY&A has a rather attractive green and white paint scheme on the units that they have repainted. They also retain their former LIRR fleet numbers as well. (They did have a couple non-LIRR EMD Geeps, but not sure if they are still out there.)
[By ridding themselves of freight work, the LIRR moves closer to being free of FRA regulations and thus are looking ever more like a rapid-transit operation.
The LIRR's ultimate goal is indeed to get free of FRA regulations so that ultimately they end up saving money and removing scrutiny of their operations from the Federal Government.]
I thought that FRA regulations would apply as long as the LIRR shares any of its trackage with freight operations or with Amtrak.
Peter, I'm not sure about the sharing of trackage with freight as being included under FRA.
Maybe an LIRR expert/worker could help out here?
Where is the Transit Professional when you need him???
Doug aka BMTman
From what went on with New Jersey Transit and the Trenton-Camden Line, it would appear that the only way for the LIRR to eliminate FRA regulations is not to share tracks with Amtrak and any freight trains.
Does anyone know wheter freight cars are still delivered to Nassau and Suffolk Counties or has all of this business evaporated?
[Does anyone know wheter freight cars are still delivered to Nassau and Suffolk Counties or has all of this business evaporated?]
Freight service in Nassau and Suffolk is alive and reasonably well. It may have picked up some since the NY&A takeover. The biggest customers seem to be on the Ronkonkoma/Greenport line: Ruco Polymer (Bethpage), Mid-Island Container and National Propane (Wyandanch), Southern Container (Deer Park), Prima Asphalt (Holtsville), Triangle Building Products and Gershow Recycling (Medford), and Georgia Pacific (Yaphank). There are two major customers on the Central Branch between Bethpage and Babylon, Pergament and a plastics company whose name I don't know.
I have no specific car-load data to back me up but it's clear from what I see almost daily on the Ronkonkoma branch & the main line. that the freight business has picked up over the last couple of years.
Can never happen as long as the LIRR sends trains into Penn Station, shares tracks with common carriers, and serves freight customers. And you could bet if they stopped serving freight customers, there'd be quite a backlash.
-Hank
How busy is the bushwick terminal, is it single or multi track service. Could it be used as an access for lirr passenger service to the 14th St line , in a wild stretch of the imagination could it go all the way to make believe terminal at Javits Center?
[How busy is the bushwick terminal, is it single or multi track service.]
The Bush Terminal yard is actually under the jurisdiction of the Cross Harbor Railroad. It is not a busy terminal anymore. Originally having several tracks, today there are only about 4 active tracks in the yard (one being their "mainline" route).
[Could it be used as an access for lirr passenger service to the 14th St
line , in a wild stretch of the imagination could it go all the way to
make believe terminal at Javits Center?]
That's a pipe dream.
I might be wrong here, but I think you're confusing the LIRR Bay Ridge line with Bush Terminal? The reason I ask is that just south of Bush Terminal is the Brooklyn Army Terminal (approx. 55th street) which has on it's property the LIRR Bay Ridge Terminal (last year it got a new high-level platform).
The only way to connect Bush Terminal (or the Bay Ridge Line) to Jacob Javits Center would be via a cross-harbor tunnel leading into the westside of Manhattan. I'm sure it's technically not impossible, but politically and economically it would be seriously out of the question.
I might be wrong here, but I think you're confusing the LIRR Bay Ridge line with Bush Terminal? The reason I ask is that just south of Bush Terminal is the Brooklyn Army Terminal (approx. 55th street) which has on it's property the LIRR Bay Ridge Terminal (last year it got a new high-level platform).
Hope I was able to help you out.
Doug aka BMTman
No. It obviously doesn't help at all. You're the one who's doing the confusing! He was talking about the BUSHWICK terminal.
Well, that was strange....
I gotta get more sleep.
Still the idea of connecting with the 14th Street Line is a pipe dream.
A connection to Jacob Javits Center is much more feasible via the IRT Flushing Line (#7).
Doug aka BMTman
Really? All you would have to do is extend the L line West to 10th Ave, turn right, and go North 20 blocks. Granted, the 7 is ten blocks closer; but who wants to ride an IRT line?
Bushwick was whatI had in mind, the proximity to the 14th St. line in Brooklyn neard Lorimer St. I'm thinking in terms of an under used ROW in place with junctions at verious locations in both Brooklyn and Queens that get very close to LGA and JFK and potential to Connetecut via under used Hellsgate. In Manhattan it is not very far from 14th St and 8th Ave to 10th and 11th Ave if the NYcent row is still there and serviceable. Piggy, take flight and look down on the metro area and consider what can be and why not, not down your cute stubby nose.
Are you suggesting a ramp be built between the L line and the NY Central like the one from the IND to the Culver line? Remember, the NY Central is elevated from 14th Street until it gets close to Penn Station.
Tuesday evening at 23:00, someone posted a message using my handle and e-mail address on SubTalk. In the message, they gave my phone number and the address of my building. My initial response was to appreciate that someone had pulled a very cute prank. But in thinking about it today, I have concerns about the prank and some larger issues.
I think it was irresponsible for someone to give out my phone number and to suggest that people can reach me between 10PM and 1 AM.
I noticed that on the evening that BusTalk flamed out, that some people claimed to be able to identify the identity of a poster who had not listed an e-mail address. I think part of the loss of control at BusTalk, and here on SubTalk on a few occasions came from people posting under made up handles with no listed e-mail address or a fictitious or obscene addresses.
I have gathered from David Pirmann's remarks on a couple of occasions, that people posting from webtv, cannot be traced. I recall that David is reluctant to institute a password to get access to the message boards. I respect his desire to make this website a place unfettered by too many controls.
On a couple of occasions over this last month or so, people have posted accusations against public figures that have bordered on libelous. At one point, an attorney seem to suggest that actions would be taken against the person making the accusations.
What if someone were to make an outright libelous attack on another person, and use my handle and e-mail address? I would guess that there is more of a trace left of a person, than just their handle or stated web address. At least I hope so.
What to people here think of using a password to get access to the message boards? Not so much in response to my concerns, but to hold people responsible for what they say and do here. I think most of us condemn the use of profanity and personal attacks on both people here and on public figures. I think if someone knew that they might be called to task for what they posted, perhaps some of the offensive and heated exchanges would be discouraged.
I do believe that there a couple of people who have no respect for other's feelings and who may even consciously seek to bring this whole message board down. Why let them ruin things for the 99% of the people who come here for information, discussion of their interests in transit, an opportunity to meet and share experiences with other people, and of course in my case to try out material for my stand-up comedy act. ( give me a break--- I've never been this serious for so long--- I just had to say that.)
As a fellow WebTV user, I can tell you that it's quite easy to get your name and address with just your e-mail address, if the address you use is your main user name (the first one you create when you get your WebTV box, the one you cannot erase/change). That's why I NEVER, EVER use that address to post to Subtalk, usenet, or anywhere else. My address ( headbanger72@webtv.net) is a secondary name which cannot be traced as easily, and it can be erased and changed at any time.
Well, with the correct investigative authority, using the IP address and the post time, you can get from the ISP the user who was logged in to the system at that time (most ISPs log this, and keep the log for x days; at the ISP I once worked for, that was 5 days) Cross reference the IP and time with the user ID, then the user ID with the user record, and that's exactly how they catch you.
AOL keeps theirs for quite some time, I belive. The bigger the ISP, the greater the chance you'll be caught, because some ISPs assin IPs to certain dial-ins, so you can narrow the pond down georgraphically.
-Hank
There are a lot of clues left behind by posters on this message board. One of these, which you can view by using the "View Page Source" (in Netscape - I'm sure there's something similar in other browsers as well) option is the remote host/remote address tag. For some ISPs it identifies the specific computer used; for others it simply identifies the portal through which the user has entered the network. But it's a start. Your tag tonight, by the way, is 209.240.200.23; last night it was 209.240.200.54 (for webtv it identifies the portal). Some of the other folks could tell you more about how to identify the ISP from the numbers, but that's beyond my knowledge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree that was irresponsible for the impostor to post your home address and phone number.
I'm not quite sure a password would be the way to go, however... I suspect it would strongly discourage new people from joining the group who may have very informative and constructive postings to make, and the board as a whole would suffer.
My very first posting on SubTalk was a quick question asking where I could find a .wav file of the "bing bong" doors closing chime. Speaking for myself, it's very doubtful that I would have come here if I had been met with a message saying that I would first have to request a password before joining the group.
There is, however, a way to screen for impostors. While not completely foolproof, I suspect it will be adequate for most occasions. Here's how it works:
If you right-click on a message and select "View Source" (This is assuming you're using IE for Windows. I'm certain Netscape and Mac users will also find an option for viewing the source code of a web document.) Notepad will pop up and you will see the HTML source code for the message, and buried about a dozen lines down will be something that looks like this:
<!-- REMOTE_HOST: ; REMOTE_ADDR: 209.240.200.23-->
Direct your attention to the series of numbers toward the end of the line. That's the IP mask of the person who made the posting. Here's the IP masks from ten radomly-selected postings from "heypaul" made within the past week:
209.240.200.34
209.240.200.23
209.240.200.64
209.240.200.54
209.240.200.84
209.240.200.68
216.34.244.59
209.240.200.166
209.240.200.94
209.240.200.161
Notice one that doesn't quite fit the pattern? That's the impostor's message.
The last number of the series, and sometimes the next-to-last number as well, will probably change every time you dial into your ISP, but at least the first two numbers should always remain constant.
FYI, Every posting I make from my home computer will have an IP mask that begins with 216.80.54.XXX, and every posting I make from work will have the IP mask of 206.41.187.65. If a posting appears here from a "David Cole" that doesn't match either of those two numbers, I'm either using somebody else's computer (very unlikely), or somebody is spoofing me.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Nice meathod, but how would you put that to work with out haveing to have Subtalk take longer to load as it checks your IP? (BTW, did you ever find the Wav.? and if you did can you tell me where?)
I wouldn't have to "put it to work", as the SubTalk script already checks and records the IP mask of every posting. (This is fairly typical of most message boards on the web.) It is already visible in the source code of each message. Example: Right now your IP mask is 152.172.242.69.
Yes, I found the .wav file. Right-click on the link below and select "Save Target As..." to download the file.
subway.wav (21 KB)
-- David
Chicago, IL
All right gentleman. We have an opportunity to make up for the fact that you failed miserably to find the key to the food locker.
A miscreant on board this ship impersonated me on Tuesday Feb 8 at 2300. Impersonating the Captain of this ship is a serious offense. I am appointing you all as a Board of Inquiry. I want the name of this miscreant of the miscreant who posted in my name by 0800 Saturday Feb 12. That's about 6 hours from now.
We are looking for someone who posts from 216.34.244.59 . It's time we have some fun aboard the Caine. Get everyone on deck, and check every portal until you find this miscreant.
By 0800, I expect a report at my e-mail address.
Remember aboard the Caine:
above standard performance is standard
standard performance is substandard
substandard performance does not exist.
Now lets have some fun.
Thanks Sarge--- I feel better knowing that you're in on this.
I'll be up all night proving with geometric logic who is posting from 216.34.244.59
Aye, Aye, sir!
HUH!
um, was that an exclamation of disbelief of my sleuthing skills? or (more likely) a comment on my habit of nonsensical rambling...
:)
ian
Can you imitate a train of R-1/9s coming to a stop? Or their bull and pinion gears as they accelerated?:)
I agree with you: there is no room for profanity here.
First the Willie B, then the Franklin Shuttle, now the WTC switch replacement is completed ahead of schedule. Two questions:
Did the Lennox Ave. work come in ahead of schedule or on time? If so, it would be four in a row.
Is the fact everything else is getting done when its supposed to be or earlier a sign of how really screwed up the Manny B is?
No, it's that the MTA is smart enough to give itself more time for completing projects than it knows it needs. The DOT isn't as smart.
I predict the Manhattan Bridge will outlive us all. Someone's making alot of money on the pessimistic evaluations of the bridge.
There must be a Star Trek fan at MTA. That's how Mr. Scott impressed the Captain.
I have a question which train is quicker from Grand Central? The Flushing Line to Shea Stadium or the Woodlawn Line to Yankee Stadium?
It's almost a dead heat! Look up the timetables at:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us
The #4, bypassing 138th Street, is slightly faster than the #7 express. I presumed the question referred to the PM rush, which is right before a Yankee or Met night game.
David
Having done both trips from GCT (and again this year, thanks to Interleagie Play; Let's go METS!) I have to say the 4 is the faster trip than the 7.
-Hank
02/13/2000
The #4 is a faster ride than the #7 to these ball parks? Was that the Flushing Local or Express?
Bill Newkirk
Who really cares? All we should care about is that the Mets, with Hampton as their lefthanded ace, finally overtake the Braves, and then go on to beat the crap out of the Yankees this year. GO METS!!!!!
The 4 may have a shorter distance to travel to Yankee Stadium from Grand Central, plus its route is in a straighter line. It would make 6 stops vs 7 for the 7, if it's running express.
Synchronize watches! Go Mets!
If the 7 is running Exp in Rush Hours, then the 4 Skips 138th, then it is only 5 stops to 161. GO YANKEES
A Yankee fan from Brooklyn. I might have known. Were you one when the Dodgers played there? What a traitor. Tell me you didn't root for the Yankees until the Dodgers left. As for the trains, I do believe the #4 train is faster than the #7 to the ballpark. The seven seems to stop at every station, while the four does skip some stops and since it is below ground it seems to move faster. Yankees? Yuk!!!!!.
Here's a campaign that ya gott believe: METS IN THE Y2K! We will take it this year over those Bronx Bummers! And also I have to agree on my R36 cars on 7. I like them- but yet the 4 are good too. The 7 takes forever to get to Shea sometimes on local but Express is fast. I'd assume that if you had 2 people 1 going to Yankee and 1 going to Shea on Express-the one that is on the 4 will get there quicker than the 1 taking the 7. LETS GO METS IN THE Y2K!
R36Gary
Fred I grew up on Kings Highway and between E 23rd and E 24th Sts in the 50s. 1 Block West of Bedford Ave, 3.1 miles South of Ebbets Field. I was always a Yankee. and a lot of my friends were Yankee Fans. We even had a couple of Giant Fans in the group. THEY WERE BUMS THEN AND THEY ARE BUMS NOW. I moved to LA 1 year after they did. Dodger fans were so stupid that they had to listen to Scully to tell them what was going on (In LA) I remember as a kid when we went to a game and brought a radio to listen to another game. I remember when I won as 14 Years old on the Happy Felton Knothole Gang. I wanted to talk to a player on the other team the next day. (I was a Pitcher in the Marine Pk Pony League) I wound up talking to Joe Pignatano because he spoke at our Temple 6 months earlier, and was a Brooklyn Boy. I got a glove a bat and a Dodger Cap. I gave the cap to my younger cousin.
My grandfather was a Dodger fan to the end. He had an original 'B' cap, which my grandmother couldn't locate when she gave me what of his things I had inherited. He was a shop teacher at IS292, and I got quite a few baseball cards from him. I learned later on that he had confiscated them from the kids in his classes who paid attention to the cards instead of the lesson.
-Hank
What did you think of Piggy? Did you know he earned a spot in baseball history? He ended his career with the Mets in 1962 and in his last major league at bat, hit into a triple play. Of course, Gil Hodges brought Piggy along with him from Washington when he became manager, and in later years Piggy became famous for his vegetable garden in the Mets bullpen at Shea.
A garden that is still tended by relivers to this day.
-Hank
Piggy was interviewed on TV once about that garden during a game when he was still the bullpen coach. Other than tomatoes, the only other veggie I can remember him mentioning was zucchini. There were others.
Currently corn, zuccini, sunflowers, peppers, and tomatoes (well, last season, anyway)
-Hank
Nice Guy, goodbaseball man. I remember theyn kept him rather then LeSorda(Fat Tommy)
Bob: When we finally get together down the road, you and I are going to have a ton of items to argue and shout at each other about. And please don't tell me that the majority of fans in your old neighborhood were Yankees fans. That's bogus. Except for some Italian neighborhoods, Brooklyn residents were overwhelmingly Dodger fans. My Mets are going to get your Yankees this year so just get ready for some real hurt. Catch you later.
Just as long as you two don't get into a fistfight over such matters as Dodgers vs Yankees, Sea Beach vs Brighton, etc.:)
That will never happen, OLD Fred, I did not say a majority. I said a lot of my friends were Yankee Fans, most were Bum fans and a couple of Giant Fans. We even had a Pirate Fan(His folks were from Pittsburg) Thank God No Red Sox Fans Though. My nephew turned traitor to the family he is a Red Sox Fan, and his brother and I gave it him this past Fall.
That's right - resurrect Tug McGraw's 1973 battle cry.
Speaking of McGraw, he came to my school in Jersey once as a guest speaker. There used to be a Father-Son night once a year when a Yankee or Met would be featured, plus a baseball movie would be shown. Ron Swoboda spoke the following year (my father still remembers that), then a year later it was Gene Michael.
When I went to Madison in 57, Coach Wunnderlich the baseball coach brought in his prize star, First Basemen Frank Torre, of the Milwaukee Braves. It was just after the Braves beat the Yanks. Boy all the boos he got, because here is a Brooklyn Boy beating a New York Team. (there were a equal amount of cheers too)
#1Brighton Express Bob: Steve8AVEXP should be clued in. He has the imnpression we are bitter rivals. I'll let him know you're my best buddy on this website and we just like to pan the other. I seem to be your foil and it's enjoyable, butI can tell you this---There are some rivalries on this website that aren't pleasant at all, so I guess it was easy for Steve to get the wrong impression. Steve is a good guy, too. He was the one who gave me the name Mr. Sea Beach last summer, and so I owe him one. Just heard that MikeHampton is going free agent after this season, so it looks like the Mets had better make their move this year.
Yeh Steve, SEA BEACH FRED is a GREAT GUY dispite all his faults. In fact he even lives on a fault in California, which makes him so shakey at times
Bob: I always knew there was a good reason for my being so wierd. Now I can let my wife know because she knew it must be something, and your diagnosis sounds reasonable. I'll use it as my excuse. But I'm not going to forget that you spilled the beans to Willie about where I lived. What if he looks me up?
What's wrong with Willie? I hear he's a good cinematographer.
You were his biggest critic last fall!!!!
I did not tell him yet, so no politics ok
Thanks for the compliment, Fred.
R36Gary: Let those bummer Yankee fans get there a minute or two sooner than Mets fans because they will have longer to be disappointed when their Bronx Bummers come down to earth this year and get swatted by our Mets in the World Series. That's when I'm going to wish I was still a New Yorker so I could be where the action is and celebrate until the cows come home. If you can believe it, I actually enjoyed riding the #7 to Shea last summer. Sure I saw many different types of people, but it was stimulating and entertaining and the people were very friendly. Rocker hasn't a clue on that.
Dream On Fred, stick with the Bums.
That's what my wife and friends say, but no dice. I don't care for the LA Bums, and bums they are. They'll be better this year but probably won't go anywhere. The Mets and Yankees in the Series. Even you have to admit that the number #7 and #4 trains will really be hopping and bopping this fall when, and if, it takes place. I might even try to worm my way back east to be a part of the Mets' victory.
The G's non-Manhattan status is quite advantageous for me.
While working in LIC these couple of weeks, I've found the G to be a comfort zone amid the overpacked R's, which I always let go by.
There's actual breathing room in the G's; this has attracted the attention of the MTA honchos, who will be canceling it in a couple of years.
www.forgotten-ny.com
What's good for you is bad for the rest of the Queens IND riders, having half of their local capacity filled by a line which really serves no purpose.
What do you mean, "no purpose"? It takes people from Queens to Bklyn. Who wants to go to Manhatten?
>>>>What's good for you is bad for the rest of the Queens IND riders, having half of their local capacity
filled by a line which really serves no purpose. <<<
That reflects something of a Manhattancentricity. Actually the G's don't run empty..most of the seats are full. Just that the cars are not filled to crush level. I hope they run an additional local on the Queens IND when the connection is finished and the G's go. Perhaps the B or Q could run local there?
G riders will transfer at Court Sq/23rd-Ely when Queens service is cancelled. But is there a way to run it to Queens Plaza for an easier connection?
>>I hope they run an additional local on the Queens IND when the connection is finished and the G's go. Perhaps the B or Q could run local there?
>>G riders will transfer at Court Sq/23rd-Ely when Queens service is cancelled. But is there a way to run it to Queens Plaza for an easier connection?
They'll add at least one local service via 63rd St., and maybe an express one too--the junction can accomodate either. The only way to send G trains to QP would be to build a new platform there; terminating G's at the existing platforms during the rush would interfere too much with through R operation.
Since the G will be cut and whatever the decision is on the new Queens Blvd service, I would like to see it like this.
Weekday
V - Queens Blvd Lcl via 63st Tunnel to ????
V - From ??? via 63rd st Tunnel/Queens Blvd Lcl to Parsons Archer
E - Queens Blvd Exp/8th Ave Local to WTC
E - 8th Ave Local/Queens Blvd Exp to Parsons/Archer
F - Queens Blvd Exp/6th Ave Local/Culver Local to Coney Island
F - Culver Local/6th Ave Local/Queens Exp to 179th St.
R - Queens Blvd Local/Broadway Local to 95th st.
R - Broadway Local/Queens Blvd Lcl to 71st Continental Ave
*Q - Queens Blvd Exp/Broadway Exp/Brighton Beach Exp to Brighton Beach
*Q - Brighton Beach Exp/Broadway Exp/Queens Blvd Exp to 179th st.
* Q trains runs Lcl from 71 Continental Ave to 179th St and vice versa.
Weekend Service
V - terminating at 71 continental Ave
E - same as weekday
F - run lcl from 179th st to 71 continental ave and vice versa.
R - same as weekday
Q - same as weekday
That should alleviate traffic n Quuens blvd, possibly the V can go thru 63st tunnel down 6th Ave transfer to the 8th Ave via W 4th to Euclid or Rockawya Park. The Fulton St line could use better local service.
Frank D -Queens Blvd Exp.
Yeah, who in their right mind would? Given the NIMBYism that runs rampant everywhere, almost everyone. Even rail projects that would benefit a neighborhood would be opposed.
Ocean Parkway would be an interstate extension of the Prospect Expressway, were it not for the NIMBY's in the 1980's.
I thought it would only run as far as Avenue H and even then only if the Cross-Brooklyn Expressway would be built.
Ocean Pkwy was entirely rebuilt in the late 1970's - 1980's. The FHWA wanted to make it an interstate. They were restrained by Congresswoman Liz Holzman.
Nothing wrong with being in favor of A instead of B. Being against everything is another matter. The idea of turning Ocean Parkway into an interstate represents one extreme. The procedures we have in place now represent the other extreme.
Can you suggest some objective criteria to help the lay public evaluate the relative merit of proposals A and B?
(Objective criteria)
How about an environmental impact statement going on for several thousand pages (for the latest EIS I wrote over 100 pages with 236 tables -- just my chapter), followed by a nine month review process with four public hearings. After that, if EVERYONE approves, allow anyone to file a lawsuit alleging that the EIS was incomplete, regardless of what was in it, and stall for several years (including appeals).
If there are any changes required after five or ten years, do the whole thing all over again, complete with the litigation. Sound good?
I write this stuff objectively as I can, but it doesn't matter what I or anyone else says. Politically, it's not about what, its about who. You should take a couple of months, compress some information into a 100 or fewer page report, and then vote. That's it.
Other than the kilogram, can you think of reasonable and objective criteria?
(How to evalutate proposals.)
It depends on what is being proposed. For transporation, you can make a rank evaulation based on the extent of quality of life improvement (crowding, speed of travel) for the number of people relative to the cost.
But on the quality side, you also have to take into account the starting point, giving improvments those with lousy service now greater priority.
And on the cost side, yes you can factor in disruption and diminished QOL for those along a proposed right of way, expressed as the cost of fair compensation. No veto, however.
Can you add up all these factors? No but you can list them. Not to allow the trap to close, the minute you pass a vague statue mandating such an evaluation (ie. an EIS), you open up an avenue of litigation which allows lawyers and judges to delay forever on the ground that the evaluation is inadequate or in some way flawed, and you are back to where we are now.
How about having an election? And allowing elected official and their appointees to make decisions?
Again, defenders of the existing system must defend the high cost, and low quantity, or public works in New York. You must, to be honest, oppose the 2nd Avenue subway, because it is too expensive and should be.
I was rather hoping for some insight as to what ought to be done rather than simply a statement of the current state of affairs.
Can you come up with a better system that exposes the inacuracies in the statements of a project's proponents and opponents?
(Can you come up with a better way of evaluating projects)
Stop evaluating them. Have an overall, approved plan that can be acted upon at any time, rather than approving each incremental project, business or building. It it takes a year to two to review a comprehensive plan well before the onset of actual construction, that's not so bad. If it takes two years plus lawsuits to do anything, then nothing can be done. A plan could be modified, of course, but it could also be acted upon.
There is an ability to build pursuant to zoning. Some people don't want zoning updated, because they like the idea that everyone who wants to do anything has to go through a review process and cut a deal to pay "compensation." But there is NO offical plan on the books for public works, other than rebuilding things exactly as they are. The result - we get stuck with the cracking Manhattan Bridge.
I say there ought to be one. The plan that gets approved is the right one.
The problem with an "overall" plan is that the devil is in the details. How detailed should such overall plans be?
Part of the problem for public works projects is payback for overhyped projects in the past. I don't think that Robert Moses would fare well today because enough people are now wise to such methods. Also, could not the ease with which critics tend to find serious omissions in EIS's may be due to the EIS's poor quality.
My guess is that a money source says - justify building it this way. It is very easy to find holes in an EIS that is designed to justify an unreasonable approach. The question is do you blame the so-called NIMBY's for pointing out the truth (no matter what their motives) or do you blame the lunkhead with the money to insist that it be done his way or not at all. (My immediate examples for this thesis are JFK Airtrain and LGA rail access.)
My question is how big a majority do you need to have something approved. Unanimous? These days, people who are not oppposed oppose because in so doing, they expect to get paid.
There is no truth in an EIS, because you can't know the future. An EIS also is based on local impact only, and it requires that projected impacts be exaggerated. The best development pattern from an EIS point of view -- suburban sprawl, because it works even if everyone drives (a conservative assumption) and no impacts are concentrated in any one place.
The environmental review process is nothing more than an employment program. Its chief output is environmental racism.
My question is how big a majority do you need to have something approved. Unanimous?
I would assume, for starters, that the number of people to benefit should greatly exceed the number of people inconvenienced. This means that there should be some element of truthfulness about a project's benefits.
There is no truth in an EIS, because you can't know the future.
Actually, I thought the authors had some influence on the truthfulness of the document that they wrote. :-)
These authors are employed by the project's proponents. This adds a bias to their conclusions over and above their obvious lack of prescience. The problem is that the bias is so obvious in most EIS's as to make the document worthless.
The environmental review process is nothing more than an employment program.
My experience has been that most public works projects are viewed solely as employment programs by labor unions and contractors. The number of jobs "created" during construction always seems to appear prominently in the discussion. The final benefits and permanent damage generally appear to be of secondary importance. The EIS is a necessary step to guard against such projects.
($500,000 isn't really enough to do anything).
I guess that's the difference between those of us who grew up in the 1970s (gas lines, same pair of pants until they reached my knees, Dad laid of twice, family had to move to Tulsa for Dad to get work) and kids coming out today. Ahhh, the boom mentality.
For those of us who grew up dreaming of moving to Iceland, since they'd still have power when the fossil fuels were gone and everyone else was freezing in the dark, $500,000 sounds pretty good.
Yessir, the internet has the scientests and engineers back on top again. We really believe you folks are going to solve all the world's problems. I'm keeping my 18 year old TV going, waiting for a $500 HDTV connected to the high speed internet to come out. My next car will be a zero emissions fuel cell model. By the time I have to redo my roof, I'll be able to put solar cells up there with a three year payback.
By the way, could you engineers do anything about the Manhattan Bridge.
[($500,000 isn't really enough to do anything).
I guess that's the difference between those of us who grew up in the 1970s (gas lines, same pair of pants until they reached my knees, Dad laid off twice, family had to move to Tulsa for Dad to get work) and kids coming out today. Ahhh, the boom mentality.]
It seems as if the standards for an ordinary middle-class existence keep getting raised. An ordinary tract house in the suburbs won't do anymore. Now, you've got to have at least 2,500 square feet, with a private bath for each bedroom, a couple of fireplaces, a center-island kitchen, and a three-car garage. And this house must be located in a "gated community," thank you very much. The family sedan or station wagon? No way Jose, now it's a SUV for each licensed driver in the family (I'm still aghast after looking at some SUV prices recently - $30,000 for a Blazer or Cherokee!) The summer trip to a cabin on the lake has now been replaced by a week each winter skiing in the Rockies, a summer trip to Europe or at least the West Coast, and a cruise every few years.
I could go on and on, but you get the picture.
(Middle class standards keep rising)
I thought I beat the game by hiding here in Brooklyn, riding the subway, avoiding the suburbs and Manhattan, and not letting my kids watch too much TV.
Well, I bought my house for $200,000, but the most recent purchase on the block was two lawyers (raised in Connecticut and Manhattan) reputedly for $500,000. YIKES! They seem down to earth, however, despite the cost of the private school their kids go to. But I get the feeling that the American lifestyle is hunting me down.
You, of course, took that completely the wrong way. Kevin was talking about building that light rail and how he would be on "Who wants to be a Millionaire" before anything happens. I mention how 500K isn't enough to do any of that. You instead talk about how 500K isn't enough for the average family to do anything. I don't know how much money the people you hang out with make, but how did you end up becoming a member of this rich group?
That's actually better than my idea. I forgot that Red Hook is a long way off from the F train. And the area around 21st Street in Queens is not very close to the N train. Both of those waterfromt areas would benefit from light rail service. I just realized that Ocean Parkway is only five blocks from the F train at McDonald Avenue. It doesn't need rail service.
If I remember correctly the only bus on Ocean Pkwy is the B-9 on a the side road and for only 1 block between Aves N & M.
And the B1 south of Avenue X to Brighton Beach Avenue. The B36 and B4 between Avenue Z and Neptune Avenue and the southbound B68 from Brighton Beach Avenue to Surf Avenue. The BM1, BM2, BM3, BM4, B103 and X29 use the Prospect Expressway, but that doesn't count.
On the LIRR Hempstead Line just pass Garden City there is a grade crossing then a diversion of the single track. One goes to the left and one goes straight. The right one goes to the Hempstead station. The one that goes straight continues behind a parking lot and then
it goes behind aome trees. I'm not sure where it goes. Is this some sort of non revenue connection to some other line? It seems like it is some sort of spur. Anyone know this area?
You are looking at part of the old LIRR Central Branch.
This track was most recently used primarily for freight and for the Circus Train. It goes east from the junction there at Franklin Avenue for about three miles. Out near Roosevelt Field, it divides again - one leg goes straight and dead-ends near Meadowbrook Parkway, the other turns north, crosses Stewart Avenue and goes into the industrial park east of Roosevelt Field. There is a freight yard alongside Stewart Avenue. At one time there was actually passenger service - there is evidence of a station at Clinton Road, with a stone station house (now a fire house) and a concrete platform. Ancient MP-41 LIRR coaches ran as shuttles from the north end of Country Life Press to this station. The track connection is gone but the curve of a nearby street outlines the ROW. The branch itself was electrified at least as far east as Clinton Road, perhaps further, I am not sure (there are folks here who can clarify this).
Long, long ago, in the steam days, the line actually ran straight out through central Nassau, all the way to Farmingdale and beyond via the current Ronkonkoma branch.
There is also another abandoned ROW about a block east of Franklin Avenue, running parallel to it, behind the stores and office buildings. Parts of it have been built over. It also connected with the spur you saw, but it ran south then turned east. It ran to Mineola, where it connected to the Main Line east of the station. A line of telephone poles defines this ROW. Best place to see it is off of Stewart Avenue east of Franklin, behind the apartment building.
Wayne
Wayne
I saw the ROW that goes over Stewart AVE.
It is full of brush. Looks abandoned. How are trains run through there?
Some observations. If you go n/b on the Meadowbrook just before Stewart Av you will see an old RR trestle that went over a now dried up creek. Its still there. A little further east, just before Merrick Av there is (or was, it might've been taken down in the past year or so) an abandoned bldg that looks to be the same type architecture of the LIRR non-ticket office waiting rooms, such as the one on the E/B side at Mineola or Westbury. By the way, as a sad aside, in the same area, Roosevelt Raceway has been completely demolished this past month.The Central Branch was last used to deliver building materials for the building of Levittown in the late 40's. Could you believe the lack of foresight!!!That abandoned ROW from Country Life to Mineola-if you go into the waiting room at Mineola there are some old photographs hanging up, two of them show the spur towards Hempstead just W/O the Nassau Tower. Also from just N/O Country Life Press there was once a spur that led to the West Hempstead Branch. I still remember as a 'lil kid the grade crossing on Hempstead Tnpk on a straight line N/O the W Hemp Station by S Klein. The White Castle was actually further west than it is now, right by IHOP. So it was possible to have a train go from Valley Stream to Oyster Bay, although it would have had to do a wye type of maneuver at Nassau Tower in Mineola as there were separate cutoffs for the Hempstead bound track and the Oyster Bay line.I understand the circus is coming to the Nassau Coliseum in a couple of weeks so you will be able to see the circus train parked by the Stewart Av Freightyard soon.
Here's a photo looking south from Country Life Press, showing the Hempstead line going off to the left and the ROW of the line that used to connect with West Hempstead going off to the right.
And here's an old one looking east from Mineola, showing the Oyster Bay branch going off to the left and the line to Hempstead and West Hempstead branching off to the right.
Bob
www.lirrhistory.com
Which is the only major subway line carrying the name of a historical figure?
Which more appropriately completes the following relationship: Concord,
You are a witch, where do you not go for fear of trial?
Before 1899, this subway line would have been under Queens Street, or would it?
Which car, now at Shore Line, is the seat of the above line?
In keeping with the spirit of the previous two questions, one train runs it's final stretch above a road that is the seat to another's avenue, which are these?
Hey, where's the shoe rental?
Dear Santa, are there any subways underneath you?
Explain the reasoning behind the following statement: MTA New York City Transit provides service from coast to coast.
What was the first subway car to legally drink alcohol?
What's your name?
E-mail
Hey come on! Somebody clicked the submit button, but nobody took the test. Come on, what are you waiting for, If you answer everything correctly, you get a FREE Ice Cream. I got two messages and I deleted them (nothing was filled out), so I can't figure out whose IP it came from. FESS UP!
Here are the answers to the test
Which is the only major subway line carrying the name of a historical figure?
Which more appropriately completes the following relationship: Concord,
You are a witch, where do you not go for fear of trial?
Before 1899, this subway line would have been under Queens Street, or would it?
Which car, now at Shore Line, is the seat of the above line?
In keeping with the spirit of the previous two questions, one train runs it's final stretch above a road that is the seat to another's avenue, which are these?
Hey, where's the shoe rental?
Dear Santa, are there any subways underneath you?
Explain the reasoning behind the following statement: MTA New York City Transit provides service from coast to coast.
What was the first subway car to legally drink alcohol?
Most of them I understand. But please explain #3 and #8.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
3. 75th Avenue used to be called Puritan Avenue, it still is called then within Forest Hills Gardens. The station tiles indicate the old name in addition to the new one.
8. Those stations are under St. Nicholas Avenue.
Thanks - mystery solved.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Question 8 refers to St. Nicholas Avenue Question 3 beats me too.
I just explained it 49 seconds before you made this post.
How can a subway car drink alcohol?
And does Santa Claus really live on St. Nicholas Avenue?
Get real.
Of course not. Santa lives on Saint Nicholas Road.
And speaking of subway cars that drink alcohol, maybe that is the problem with the M-4s, or the R-46s. They like to have too much to drink, and then SEPTA has to pay $6.4 million dollars for it.
Speaking of alcohol and the M4s, the planners must have been drunk when they built the el to a Wide Gauge. Its a real problem now, that we can't have any temporary replacements for the AJs.
Didn't they build it to be compatible with the streetcars (for some reason)? Why were the streetcars built with wide gauge to begin with?
To make them incompatible with freight cars, so that freight could not be moved easily by rail down the city streets.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Also, many (Baltimore, Philadelphia & Pittsburgh, to name a few) cities had franchises that required that the track gauge be that of the local wagon and carrige builders wheel spacing. The thought seemed to be "If we allow a private company to tear up the public streets to lay tracks, then the public should be able to use them".
Once the gauge was established, the companies would reuse older equipment to save investment (i.e. Cable grips would use horsecars as trailers, electric car would do the same, or newer grips might be converted to electric cars.) This was the case in Baltimore, where horsecars, cable cars and electrics all used a track gauge of 5'4 1/2".
The only "no steam trains on our streets" case I know of was Toronto. In the 1880's the Toronto Street Railway came under the control of the McKenzie-Mann interests, who also controlled the Canadian Northern Railway. Alarmed that the prospect of steam locomotives on Yonge Street, the Toronto City Council ordered the TSR to change the horsecar guage to any gauge other than 4' 8 1/2". The odd gauge of 4' 10 7/8" (that Toronto still uses ) was as far as the wheels on the cars could be pulled out WITHOUT resetting the pedistals. May be Canadian Urban Legend, but it's still a good story.
New York City Transit is about to take a big step into the new age of CBTC. This system will be installed on the Canarsie Line (L) by 2003. It will include Automatic Train Operation (ATO), and a host of various operating modes. This system will space trains not by the conventional signal system but by on board and wayside radio communications. More to come, stay tuned...........................
If it is digital it will probably cost 10 times as much as the old color light signals. It will not work at first and by the time the manufacturer gets it debugged it will have to be replaced by another incompatible electronic format. I hope they implement this idea slowly. Knowing the MTA they will because they are a conservative bunch.
of course they will try anything costing a few millions if not billions only having to retool at more cost and inconvenience MTA=ATM
I notice that the MTA put out new Sub and Bustalk signs that read "Please don't trip or fall (on the subway or in the bathtub)" also, "Better safe than sorry (A message from the MTA and your Mom)"
Is this the act of a kinder MTA? or did they just read the resent tread on Keeping passengers happy?
As of 0800, Saturday Feb 12, the disloyal officers
aboard this ship have produced no report disclosing
who impersonated heypaul on Tues Feb 8 at 2300
hours.
As a result, I, Lieutenant Commander Philip Francis
Queeg, am relieving myself of command of the Caine,
according to Rule 37N of the Naval Code.
I am temporarily disabling my rantings on SubTalk.
I will seek temporary asylum at the hospitable
quarters of David Cole's Nth Ward.
All friendly souls can communicate with me there.
My best wishes and respect to President Abraham
Lincoln on this day of his birth. I have much noted
and long remembered his few words spoken at Gettysburg
Just thought I'd have alittle fun at heypaul's original site's expense!
LOL
Doug aka BMTman
Hey Paul, maybe if you walk ove to Bedford Ave and Quentin Road you could find Mr Conklin and Miss Brooks.
What station will the proposed Lawrence St transfer connect to?
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>What station will the proposed Lawrence St transfer connect to?
Jay St. IND. Apparently the two mezzanines are only separated by a wall. It beats me why this should be such a low priority, since the only other place you can change from the Broadway Line to the 8th Av. is at Times Square, which as we all know is a schlep.
I must confess I hate Lawrence Street Station almost as much as I do Rector St.--two extra minutes out of my life every time I take the tunnel line.
Are there any stations no one would miss if they were shut down?
Everything above 34st on the Q. Wouldn't miss them a bit
Why? A lot of people use 42nd, 47-50 and 57th.
I was talking about the Q. I would like a count of how many subtalkers have ridden the Q above 34th St (not counting times riding it just for the heck of doing so)
I did, as do thousands of other people.
I do everytime I am in NY use the Q from 50th and 42nd to Brooklyn
Then (except for 57th), why would the Q skip those stations (47-50 being one of the top 10 busiest in the system), while the other 3 trains stop there?
I practically never find myself on the Q, since I use the Brighton line only on weekends.
I like the IDEA of the Q, though; if only they had built more express stations on the Sea Beach, the trackage, or ROW, exists for a Sea Beach Express, as well as express service on the F.
www.forgotten-ny.com
But, you're talking about a train that's using a line on which it doesn't belong. The Q is a Broadway express that can't get to Broadway.
The Q has been on 6th Ave. for 12 years now. Even though it is a reroute, a Q running on Broadway would seem strange today.
Which is highly ironic (the Q now running on 6th Avenue, that is), since it was the pre-1967 Q, when combined with the D of those days, which made up today’s D train.
I wonder, when both sides of the bridge open up again, which Brighton train will be the express. The Broadway Q or the D?
138th Street on the 4/IRT/lex. I do not think I have ever seen anyone get on or off at that station. But then again judging by the urine stench when the doors open and you are in the last 3 cars it more than likely should be coverted to northern Manhattans largest underground urinal.
Peace,
Andee
Bowery on the j,m and Z line.
The station is in the Bronx, not Manhattan
OOPS! My error! The Bronx's largest underground urinal.
Bowery (J, M, Z)
138th/Grand Cncourse (4, 5)
21st St./Van Alst (G)
E 105th St. (L)
Beach 44th St. (A)
Beach 98th St. (S)
Intervale Ave (2, 5)
Broadway (G) (the worst underground station in the system, and that includes Chambers St.)
E143rd. St/St. Mary's (6)
None of these stations will get closed. Look at the stink raised when Dean St. was closed, and that had documented proof that more fare evaders used this station than did actual fare-paying passangers.
I'd keep Broadway on the G. If the Willie B ever went down, that would be the primary stop for the area.
I'd add in Rector St & 28th St on the BMT.
The IND was built with well placed stations, with a fair balance between the walk and the delay for through passengers. In most cases they did it right -- the local serves inner areas, the express comes in from outer areas and runs right to the business districts. Not a lot of IND fans on this board, but give credit where credit is due.
75th Avenue on the Queens Blvd. IND. Not much usage and very close to 71st Continental. 65th St. isn't used that much either.
I like the IND. All of these people call the IND boring, sterile, they call the R-1/9s a step backwards, the IND is overbuilt, it killed the BMT and IRT, whatever they say. I like the IND.
So do I. If it had been built in cooperation with the BMT and IRT, and not as a direct competitor, then more people would like it. Most anti-IND people are BMT and IRT fans who see the IND as the tool of their destruction.
Why are all the mezzanine levels as big as the platform areas? It seems that was alot of space used for nothing.
Why are IND mezzanines to big.
That's a good question. In some cases, they might have planned for commercial space. They certainly should do something with it. Those at Prospect Park and 7th Avenue on the F are caverns.
One thing about the mezzanine levels of IND stations that is of use to me: It enables me to measure the column distances that signify the distances between subway tracks which, to do so on the tracks themselves would be utterly illegal and dangerous. (For the record, on the IND, such distance is 13’ 6”, as opposed to 12’ 6” on the original IRT.)
[Why are all the mezzanine levels (on the IND) as big as the platform areas? It seems that was alot of space used for nothing.]
Most of the IND system was "overbuilt" for the amount of ridership it actually had. There are a couple of reasons why that was the case. For one, the city wanted to make a "statement," to show that its system was big and grandiose - hence stations that were much larger than the often-cramped IRT counterparts. A second reason, probably the more important one, is that the IND was supposed to be a larger and busier system than it actually turned out to be. Although it was planned for the most part during the prosperous 1920's, it didn't open until the Great Depression had struck and surpressed ridership. The Depression also helped kill off the IND's planned expansion, known as the Second System. After a bounce in ridership during the Second World War, suburbanization and the rise in car ownership became major issues. In short, the IND never lived up to its full potential.
The only fault I have with the IND is with the occasionally overbuilt, cavernous stations. Why must I walk practically to the midpoint between 7th and 8th Avenue to get on an F at the Seventh Avenue station? I have to break into a run if I hear the train-approach beep. It's ridiculous. Of course the jogging I have to do may keep me alive an extra five years.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I have friends who live near that station. I have found it much improved since they put the metrocard high-wheel turnstiles and MVM's in. It eliminates alot of the running you speak of.
Peace,
Andee
I'm an IND fan as well. My handle says it all. You have to admit that it was overbuilt to a degree. Did they really have to include mezzanines at local stations?
Speaking of overbuilding, I cannot let this thread be without talking about the Broad Street Subway. Built slightly before the IND, this system is also significantly overbuilt. 2 track local stations in South Philly are island platform and need a mezannine level. Some underused express stations have closed stairways to unused mezanine space, that could possibly be used as this signles club that is spoken of. In fact, the perfect place for a singles club would be the pedestrian tunnel under Broad Street, or it would be lacking the columns. But, alas, it cannot expand because City Hall station was constructed very poorly, and cannot handle many more people.
the mezzanines at many stations are being reduced in size or have already been reduced in size. Several examples:
Bedford Park, Second Avenue, Broadway (G), Metropolitan/Grand (G/L). This list is not complete. A complete list is on Peggy's station-by-station pages
I forgot to add. Much of the closed space is used for storage, offices, employee locker rooms, employee restrooms, etc. This saves the cost of buidling new space.
Flushing on the G has a closed crossover at the North (Court Square bound) end of the station which is used for electrical rooms, storage and employee restrooms.
The area is ***not** open to the public, but the street stairways are still in place but one is boarded up at street level and the other is bricked over at a landing halfway up (as seen by flashlight.)
Fulton Street (G) also has a closed mezzanine.
***please do not ask to access these areas. I will not respond to e-mail requests asking for access.***
Speaking of boarded-up station entrances, when were the J/M/Z Essex Street entrances on the south side of Delancey last open to the public, not counting their recent temporary opening when the bridge was closed? How did passengers get to the platforms? Or was there a side platform that's gone now, matching the one for SB trains? I'm guessing it must have been a long time ago, so it's kind of strange that the entrance staircases are still in place. When did the Z start running? I think it's listed on the signs at the closed staircases. (When one of the staircases was temporarily open last year, I very much enjoyed walking through the slam gate -- it's probably the last time I'll ever walk through one -- and past the old token booth.)
the trains pulled in on the center track. A temporary bridge was over the normal Marcy Bound track.
That was during the Williamsburg Bridge repairs -- yes, I know, I used that exit then. But before that, when was the exit last used?
There is a modern token booth there. However, I've never seen that exit open (or knew of it's existance) at all, and I've been familiar with that station for nearly 20 years now.
The Essex St. Trolley Terminal occupied that vast expanse to the south of the station before it was closed in 1948. Perhaps that was when that entrance was closed as well.
There is an underpass that leads to that particular exit. Until the bridge closure, I was positive that this underpass led only to the operating tower adjacent to the Queens bound platform. I had always wondered how people got to this platform from the street before the IND was opened, which can be used as an underpass from the Manhattan bound token booth.
When was the underpass closed?
It's always been closed as far as I've known. There was always a gate with a "no admittance" sign in the stairwell. I had always assumed that it was the underpass for enterance to the tower. I had no clue that their was an unused exit right next to the tower until the installation of new flourescent lighting made it visable.
It was closed in 1948, I believe, at the same time as the trolley terminal.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So why the nice brown J/M/Z markers on the closed staircase?
That I can't explain. I've seen them too - I use that station whenever I go to Ratner's for Sunday lunch. Perhaps there was a plan to reopen it that never materialized.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
O maybe it wasa case of "If it doesn't move, paint it."
[re stations that wouldn't be missed if closed]
I'd add Bushwick/Aberdeen and 3rd Avenue on the L, Rector Street on the N/R (though probably not on the 1/9), and Alabama Avenue on the J/Z.
Isn't Alabama Ave. on the J/Z the closest stop to the East New York train yards and the East New York Bus Depot?? How many TA workers use that stop?
Many do. Why not remove the token booth, since these people don't pay fares anyway.
Yeah, but the Bway Jct/Bway ENY complex is not too far from from there either.........
3TM
I'm unclear on the Manhattan Bridge routings of today's IND and BMT, pre-Chrystie connection. Anybody know?
www.forgotten-ny.com
B -- ther was no such train. There was a "BB" which ran from 168th/Wash. Hgts. to Houston-2nd Ave. via Sixth Avenue, in rush hours only. (It coincided with the "AA", which ran 8th Avenue to Hudsn Terminal in NON-rush hours only. I'm going to assume that the "AA" trains became "BB" trains for the rush hour.)
D -- 205th Street/Concourse to Coney Island via 6th Ave., Houston-2nd, Jay St. thence the way the "F" goes nowadays. In rush hours, it would run express in the Bronx a.m. into Manhattan, p.m. out of Manhattan.
N -- Astoria to Coney Island via BMT Broadway, north side of the Manhattan Bridge, express down 4th Avenue Brooklyn, then Sea Beach line to CI.
R -- was the "RR" in those days, 71st-Continental, 60th Street tunnel under East River, local down BMT Broadway, via the tunnel to Brooklyn, then local to 95th-Ft. Hamilton.
The "F" in those days ran express in Queens out to 71st-Continental, then local to 179th. In Manhattan, it ran local down 6th Avenue, and terminated at Houston-2nd Avenue. (It had run to Church Avenue in Brooklyn in early IND days, via the route it uses nowadays. I understand the "E" also did this for a time.)
That's right, thanks for the reminder. Old age - memory breakdown, you know how that goes.
In the 50s 1-Brighton Exp Mon Sat 6AM-9PM 1-Brighton Local All other times 3-West End Exp All Times. 4-Sea Beach Exp All Times skipped Myrtle and DeKalb. 5-Culver-Nassau Loop Rush Hours on South Tracks. 7-Franklin-Nassau Exp Sunny Summer Sundays until 1955.
Pre-Chrystie St #2 or M Nassau St Express ran am rush 95 St to Broad via 4 Av Exp,skip Dekalb and via Bridge (south side),Then continued from Broad St to 9 Av or Bay Pkwy as #3 or TT West End Local.
PM Rush #3 or TT from Bay Pkwy or 9 Av via tunnel to Broad, at Court St and while in tunnel engineer and conductor changed signs to "S Special" but kept "M" on front sign. Then from Broad via Bridge to DeKalb then local to 95 St.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS Standards were sometimes used on this service right up to Chrystie St.
That means the conductor had to make his way through each car to change the signs. Since the storm doors on the BMT standards were normally locked, the conductor would have had to unlock them in order to move between cars. I understand there was a lock release feature beneath the single seat next to each storm door, the one whose back was up against the bulkhead. Or am I way off base? What about the buttons on the consoles which operated the storm doors? Did they also work in multiple unit, or did they open only the storm doors on that particular car?
On the Standards there were 3 signs. The Upper had ONE TERMINAL THE MIDDLE THE OTHER TERMINAL THE LOWER THE LINE. the terminal where it was going lit up(the box)
Sorry Bob, I think you're mixing them up with the triplexes or the R1-9's. The standards only had 2 signs, which were the terminals.
Jeff are you sure. I always thought the Standards had 3 signs The 2 Terminals and the lines. Also a sign saying via Bridge or Tunnel. Like this BRIGHTON LOCAL via Tunnel etc. Can anybody verify this. Also how many signs the Triplex had. I remember there was a sign stating Bridge and another next to it saying tunnel
Sorry Bob, I think you're mixing them up with the triplexes or the R1-9's. The standards only had 2 signs, which were the terminals.
To prove it here is an interior picture of a BMT Standard. Notice there are only 2 signs.
No I remember. There were 2 sets of signs by the Center Door. I set had the Terminals, The other Said West End Exp the other said Via Bridge or Via Tunnel. If the Train was a Eastern Div Train. The Via Bridge/Tunnel Sign Said Local or Express.
On the BMT standards, there were two sets of signs per car side, located on either side of the center doors. The first units had small signs installed on the door pockets, which were obstructed from view inside the car when the doors were open. Later units had large signs installed in the window spaces adjacent to the center door pockets. Motorless trailers had the same large signs installed in next window frame over. On the Canarsie line, the only line I ever rode them on, one pair of signs were set to "14th St. L'c'l" and "Canarsie". On the other set, it was "14th St. L'c'l" and "8th Av. Manh'tt'n". All of these roller curtains were printed on both sides, and the signs were not illuminated.
The Triplexes had two destination signs, one on top of the other, which were printed on the wrong side; i. e., the white back portion was visible and the only time you could actually see what was being displayed was when that particular sign was illuminated. In addition, there was a route sign adjacent to the two destination signs (printed on the correct side and always visible), and directly beneath this was a "via bridge" or "via tunnel" indicator. The "via bridge" sign would be illuminated in green when the train was operating over the Manhattan Bridge while the "via tunnel" sign would be illuminated in white if the train was operating via the Montague St. tunnel. The bulkhead destination sign would be illuminated in the same manner. Each section of a Triplex unit had one such sign box on either side.
The R-1/9s ushered in the two destination, single route sign combination. The side route signs were printed on both sides of the curtain, while the destination signs were in a pattern of two terminals facing one way first, the the other way. When properly set, the correct terminus would appear on the interior and exterior of the sign box. The side destination signs were supposed to be backlit in the direction the train was going, and usually were.
On the Standards there were 3 signs. The Upper had ONE TERMINAL THE MIDDLE THE OTHER TERMINAL THE LOWER THE LINE. the terminal where it was going lit up(the box)
I think you're thinking of the R-30s. The signbox of the Standard had two rolls. The top roll was the route and the bottom was the terminal.
www.bmt-lines.com
Steve: I observed this being done on what I believe was a six car train of R-27's. We left Bay Parkway in the late afternoon. The front route sign read M Nassau St and Chambers St was the destination. The side signs read Chambers St,Bay Parkway and TT West End Local. When we arrived at Court St the engineer changed the front signs to S Special and 95 St,he also changed the side signs in the first car. We spent a few minutes at Court St while the conductor changed the signs aft of his position. He the closed the doors and walked through the front of the train changing the others signs. We then proceeded up Nassau St across the south side of the bridge back to Dekalb and made all local stops to 95 St.
Larry,RedbirdR33
This may be the wrong site, but... What is the latest on the AVIS site, please?
Did the Myrtle Ave el connect with a free transfer to the subway stations it crossed, such as the IND Crosstown at Myrtle Willoughby and the IND at Flatbush Ave Ext (the old Myrtle Avenue station)?
www.forgotten-ny.com
When the Park Row Terminal was closed the following transfer procedure was established for the #11 Myrtle Av Local. Passengers boarding at stations from Sumner Av through Navy St requested a transfer ticket at time of payment. During midnight hours when there were no agents on duty these transfers were issued at Bridge St. This transfer was good on the IND only from Jay St to Bway-Nassau although there was no way to enforce this.
Passengers boarding at Bway-Nassau had to request a transfer at time of purchase and again transfer to the BMT at Bridge St. This transfer was only good for stations from Navy to Sumner,but again there was no way to enforce it.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Me also, but I wanted a different handle for the bus, since Brighton Beach Bus was not the same as Brighton Exp. I think we should have one handle on each if we are on each one.
Thanks for the input but you are a single individual and should be able to present your opinions as such. Maintaining the site is hard enough without me doing all the work twice...
David,
Everyone that wants the ability to use multiple handles should pay $20/month. Just think you could become the Bill Gates of mass transit.
(HEHEHE)
Just a thought.
Peace,
Andee
ok ( yawn )............zzzzzzzz
I'm in. Same handle and e-mail address I have always used.
Wayne
My license plate inscription is now my permanent handle.
I've decided to stay with Pigs of Royal Island for the time being. But I've already registered Humans of Royal Island over on BusTalk! What do I do?
And I had to change my e-mail, my old one was in bad taste, but I rarely change my e-mail.
I'm having a real problem with this. Aside from the fact that people are now required to post their real name thus allowing Big Brother to keep track of who is having inappropiate thouhts and opinions, I am really having trouble with the one handle thing. Many people, when they first come here are not really in the Sub Talk "mood". They don't know the other ppl. here and they usually don't a handle that really fits them. People would be forced to go through life being stuck with a handle they didn't give much thought to. Most first timers post like their first name or something generic like Subway Lover. If after your hear for a while and maybe after you learn a thing or 2 about subways you'll be dying to change your name to something like "PATH Man", but you'll be stuck with "Dave" or "Subway Bob". I'll be willing to bet that all of you have gone through several handles and you'd all be upset it you were forced to use your origional one. Also many people change their handles to keep up with current events or to provide a bit of humor. For example that Humans guy is really going to get shafted. It is also evident that some of our posters are a little lacking is the area of mental stability and they enjoy the freedon of having each of their personalities getting a seperate handle here at subtalk.
In conclusion I'd like to say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Except for BURT SANDBLASTER (remember ole Burt, whatever happened to him?) We really haven't had a problem with flamers here at SubTalk. Is it really worth giving up our freedom just so some jack ass can't publicly prove how big a jack ass he is by flaming?
In addition to complaining I also have some alternatices. On most other MB's I post to the IP address is posted right next to the message. This way it is easy to spot an impersonator, easy to ban them and easy to trace their IP and complain. You can also use their IP to ping them, DoS them, Nuke them or employ many other types of info-warfare. Fianlly if Mr. Dave is tired of cleaning up smut on the MB he can appoint some trustees who would then also have to power to come in and remove offending messages.
> Aside from the fact that people are now required to post their real
> name thus allowing Big Brother to keep track of who is having
> inappropiate thouhts and opinions,
I'm sorry but where on the site does it say you have to *Post* your real name?
You have to supply it to me. Is that too much to ask to allow you to use my server? If it is, please, find someplace else. The only freedom you have here is what I decide to supply to you.
-Dave
Its still leaving a paper trail and the fact that whatever one says here can be used against them in a court of law (or other disiplinary hearing) scares the heck out of me. This is a moot point because some time ago I decided to give my real name (in that I gave my e-mail address), but still, my general level of unease has gone up a few notches.
If this move will help to track imposters, flamers, and other troublemakers it will outweigh the relatively minor inconvenience of providing David with our real names and having to choose one handle. I think we should be glad and appreciative that David is taking the time to provide us all with this extra layer of security.
As far as postings being used against us in a court of law:
1. Don't do anything that will land you in court.
2. If you do, don't spill the beans here.
Alan Glick
hey alan... now that I have given up trying to
understand the MTA's finances, I would like to find
out whether people posting on message boards have
ever been sued for making libelous remarks?
Suppose I were to say that I know that Alan Glick
ate a whole pint of mint chocolate chip ice cream
last night, proving that his work for the American
Heart Association is a total fraud. ( Note I said
suppose, and the illustration was just the first
weird but relatively unoffensive thing I could think
of ) Let us say you took umbrage at my remarks. Or
even more extreme, you didn't like my remarks.
Could you
sue me for what I wrote on a message board. If you
were able to show that the words damaged your
professional career, could you collect monetary
damages?
If so, I have a whole drawer full of nasty vicious
things that have been said about me here, and I am
canceling all my appointments and going to Civil
Court this morning.
If not, and you are sure that I cannot be held
liable for anything I say here, I have a lot that I
would like to get off my chest...
That's an interesting question.
For a hobby site, I think it would be hard to prove harm. Nothing written on this board is known to any of my friends or relatives, so it can't hurt my personal reputation. Nor is it known to many people in my field, John Bredin esq. excepted, and he works out in Chicago and has little contact with potential employers here.
I think to libel someone, you have to get it out in the press where lots of people see it. Or you have to do it on a local gossip chain, where the slander will become known to those who know you.
Finally, it is only libel if reasonable people believe it. Most people on the board will discount personal attacks, if they don't know the attacker personally or by reputation.
Paul, you can sue anyone for anything. Doesn't mean you'd win.
If you actually think that you have a smidgen of privacy on the internet at all, I suggest you look in you 'c:\windows\temporary internet files' folder, and count the files that start with 'cookie:'.
If you're afraid to post with your real name, you should find another leisure activity, such as wallpapering your room with aluminum foil and painting your windows black. Big brother is already here, and there's nothing to be done about it other than to withdraw from society.
-Hank
The matter to be resolved is whether or not people have the right to post under multiple handles or even under a real identity. I don't understand why people see the need to post under multiple handles. One handle is enough. I don't always know who's the person who's talking behind a handle. Come on and let's be realistic, posting under multiple handles might be an abuse of privileges especially when people think they have the right to insult others. The scary part is people think they can get away with it since they don't reveal their e-mail addresses. Maybe it would have been simple enough to just require posting with an e-mail address and taking the option away of posting without one. But the webmaster came up with a compromise. Only he will see your name and e-mail address while you can still post under a handle and have the option of not showing your e-mail address. I wouldn't consider privacy to be an issue becuase it hasn't been taken away. You still get some measure of security. At least if somebody decides to pull a fast one, the webmaster can take appropriate actions against an offender of an inappropriate posting. My hat's off to him on this one. Trolling can be reduced. However, it won't necessarily stop people from making controversial comments.
But it locks a person into a name forever. My name changings were a bit overboard (all right, bit is an understatement if there ever was one), but sometimes a person decides to add a modifier to their name, or feels that there's a better handle. I can't think of any situation anywhere, where one is forced to have the same name forever.
Pigs of Royal Island---your handle needs no modifiers. It fits you to a T.
"I can't think of any situation anywhere, where one is forced to have the same name forever."
How about the real world?
Alan Glick
Ever read the Legal Notices in the Village Voice?
-Hank
"Ever read the Legal Notices in the Village Voice?"
Didn't think the real world included readers of The Voice :)
Alan Glick
I just like to see what people ar changing their names too, and Dan Savage's column is always good for a laugh. If it wasn't free, I wouldn't read it.
-Hank
Like nobody's ever changed their name.
there are valid reaons for multiple handles. I suggest a limit of 3 provding the poster uses an alternate e-mail such as work or a secondary e-mail address or one of the web-based mail services
That's fine with me. Have a handle for a valid reason, not just so you can hide behind an alias and insult somebody. Of course, don't get me wrong. Everyone's entitled to their privacy, just as long as they don't abuse their privileges.....
-Stef
YOU TELL'EM, DAVE!!!
i will post my real name SALAAM ALLAH and then i get racist e mail calling me a NIG.......
and a smelly camel jockeys and other religious and racist slanders etc....
I'm having a real problem with this. Aside from the fact that people are now required to post their real name thus allowing Big Brother to keep track of who is having inappropiate thouhts and opinions, I am really having trouble with the one handle thing. Many people, when they first come here are not really in the Sub Talk "mood". They don't know the other ppl. here and they usually don't a handle that really fits them. People would be forced to go through life being stuck with a handle they didn't give much thought to. Most first timers post like their first name or something generic like Subway Lover. If after your hear for a while and maybe after you learn a thing or 2 about subways you'll be dying to change your name to something like "PATH Man", but you'll be stuck with "Dave" or "Subway Bob". I'll be willing to bet that all of you have gone through several handles and you'd all be upset it you were forced to use your origional one. Also many people change their handles to keep up with current events or to provide a bit of humor. For example that Humans guy is really going to get shafted. It is also evident that some of our posters are a little lacking is the area of mental stability and they enjoy the freedon of having each of their personalities getting a seperate handle here at subtalk.
In conclusion I'd like to say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Except for BURT SANDBLASTER (remember ole Burt, whatever happened to him?) We really haven't had a problem with flamers here at SubTalk. Is it really worth giving up our freedom just so some jack ass can't publicly prove how big a jack ass he is by flaming?
In addition to complaining I also have some alternatives. On most other MB's they post to the IP address is posted right next to the message. This way it is easy to spot an impersonator, easy to ban them and easy to trace their IP and complain. You can also use their IP to ping them, DoS them, Nuke them or employ many other types of info-warfare. Fianlly if Mr. Dave is tired of cleaning up smut on the MB he can appoint some trustees who would then also have to power to come in and remove offending messages.
I'll be willing to bet that all of you have gone through several handles and
you'd all be upset it you were forced to use your origional one.
I'm using my original handle, suggested to me 2.5 decades ago by my parents.
Me too, although until I was hired full-time, I used 'intentionally left blank' Now I don't have to worry about being told 'don't come in tomorrow', I can use my real name. (My company is so screwy I have to use my own internet access!)
-Hank
Now we know....
It's not like I tried to hide it. I still signed every message..
-Hank
Hey, no problem. I was kidding.
People are now required to post their real name.
Only for the benefit of the webmaster. Dave pays the bills, he has a right to know who he's supporting.
All of you have gone through several handles.
Nope. I've been on this board for about a year and a half now and while a few people have changed their handles, not many do - I'd say on the order of 10%.
(on some other boards) the IP address is posted right next to the message.
Many of us post from more than one location. I'm posting from home right now, on a G3 Mac with a cable modem, but when I travel I post from a Toshiba laptop with a dialup connection or from one of my children's computers, all with different interfaces to the internet. The only imposter that will stop is a regular poster who posts from his or her own machine without using an anonymizer.
We really haven't had a problem with flamers here at SubTalk.
Compared to other boards, including (so I'm told) BusTalk, that's true. But we've come close enough to justify reasonable measures to protect the existance of this resource. As I said above, it's Dave's money, and that means we get to follow the golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well I still can't decide b/t Joisey Mike, Jersey Mike, South Jersey Mike or something honouring the PRR. What I do know is that once I lock in a name I'll instantly think of something much more creative.
I've used the Steve B handle right from the start, and added the 8AVEXP portion last summer on the anniversary of my first subway ride in 1965.
From what I heard, the paint used on the white cars was easier to "buff" (clean), but the graffiti artists found away around that: you prime it with white spray paint first, then paint the graffiti. I went to HS with a graffiti artist during this time, and he knew.
Here's a picture of the aformentioned whitebird paint job. This picture is of R17's sporting this particular color scheme. Doesn't it just scream "tag me, i'm blank as a canvas"?
THANKS!! great picture!!
Peace,
Andee
Don't thank me, thank Dave. Here's another one.
The other trick was to paint some kind of thinner on the train prior to putting your "burner" up.
I remember seeing them back in 1984-85. It didn't matter how the cars were painted in those days. They'd be desecrated in no time flat.
Im still waiting for mine, it has been a whole 5 minutes, Patience my tush. I want it now(Typical Brooklyn Virgo)
Mine came in less than 2 minutes after I requested one. Passwords are now rapidly becoming a standard on Web BBS's. Our local soccer BBS came back on with a posting password. It has basically elininated the idiots.
And three cheers to Dave for developing his own system. A board that my son used to post on has added passwords using a commercial system that, in its rules and regulations "grants the provider of said service the unlimited right to market the user's email address for whatever purpose the provider sees fit, including mass mailings which the user agrees to accept, may not block or reject, or consider as "spam" in any sense of the term." Needless to say he didn't sign on, but I'll wager that most teenagers using that board (it's aimed at fans of a particular Japanese anime) didn't bother to read the fine print.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Had the full IND system been built as it was planned when it went into service in 1932 (or perhaps even if only the 1925 Second Avenue Subway Plan been built), the double letters might have made more sense, with all those express and local services following the same basic route on four-track trunk lines. It all started on September 10, 1932 with the A and AA for Washington 8th Avenue Express and Local, and then a few short months later added the C and CC Concourse 8th Avenue Express and Local when the Bronx Extension opened. But after the 6th Avenue Line opened, the original C was retired for the sake of the D until it was revived in 1985.
Because the 6th Avenue trunk was so complicated, the DD and FF names never quite made sense. And, the EE that came about in 1967 was really a stepchild as an IND-BMT hybrid.
I personally always felt that the Double Letter System was quite elegant and hated to see it go although I know that it was probably for the best especially for logic sake. But one could also say that the system could still be better by using other letter for Routes which have two or more different terminal, like the A to Lefferts/Far Rockaway/Rockaway Park and the 5 to Dyre Avenue/White Plains.
There was also those double letter routes such as the QJ and QB.
Does anybody have pictures of the subways with the double letters displayed? I would love to see one of the RR!
Click on this link to see R42 #4812 in his RR outfit and brand-new bonnet.
There are also lots of RR's in the R27/R30 page at
The Illustrated Subway Car Roster
under R27/R30.
Wayne
I really believe the new R42's with those HUGE and colorful route signs were the best looking cars ever run in the subway system.
SLANT 40's TAKE THAT TITLE!
I would have LOVED to seen one with an Orange "D" or a big Blue "A".
Alas, the Slants, as delivered, had only "E" (light blue), "F" (magenta), and "S" (black letter on white). They wore this "S" whenever they strayed from the "E" or "F" to places like the "EE", "GG" or "HH". It wasn't until they were transferred to the "A" in 1977 that they got different sign rolls, very similar to what they are using today, with the smaller window and round bullet.
As for the R42 - the only lines I never saw one on were the "CC" and the "HH". A photo of one with a "CC" sign (from the "D" fleet) in the R42 Rogues' Gallery made up for the lack of former - no "HH" I was ever on (and these were few) ever had a large front sign.
Wayne
To the best of my memory, the only trains with two-letter designations, where they were not double letters, all began with Q (Such as: QB, QJ & QT)
Not so. The short lived lines like the NX, RJ and MJ tend to get forgotten. The NX was the now infamous express service operating on the express tracks of the Sea Beach line from Nov 1967 to April 1968. The RJ was another short-lived line that ran on both the J line from Jamaica to 95th St in Brooklyn in 67-68. The MJ was what the Myrtle Ave. el was called from 1967-69, although the Q types never sported that sign.
The QJ, QT and QB were designed to differentiate the lines operating on the Brighton (Q) line. QJ stood for "Brighton to Jamaica", QT for "Brighton via tunnel" and QB for "Brighton via bridge".
Don't forget the MJ which was assigned to the Myrtle Av EL and the short lived NX and RJ.
Larry,RedbirdR33
And the MM which never came to be...
Wayne
I have a BMT roll-sign assembly for R1-9 cars which contains the MM.
What was the MM going to be?
IIRC - (correct me if I am wrong) The MM was supposed to be the mid-day alter ego of the "KK", using the connection from Essex Street to Broadway-Lafayette, and running from 57th Street-6th Avenue to Metropolitan Avenue. I don't believe they planned to run this on the weekends or at night - it was to be mid-day non-rush hour only, like the "HH". They never implemented it even though it showed up on many sign rolls.
Wayne
I thought the "MM" was going to be a rush hour train, just like the KK.
Maybe they were going to run it up to Yankee Stadium for games in honor of Mickey Mantle, but he retired instead.
The official train of the new millennium.
The train that melts in your mouth, not in your hand...
-Hank :)
On December 27, 1969, there was VERY BRIEFLY an "MM" train - created by yours truly who went through the four cars of an "M" shuttle and set each and every sign to "MM". I even set the rear bulkhead sign to "MM". And when we reversed direction at Metropolitan I changed the OTHER bulkhead sign. By the time we got back to Myrtle, all signs showed "MM". It was a mixed bag of R-7s and R-9s, including one 1400s car with red and wicker seats. The conductor didn't even notice.
Wayne
If you really wanted to throw 'em for a loop, you should have set the bulkhead destination curtains, assuming they were still in place, to some crazy terminus such as Wash. Hts-168th St. or maybe Brooklyn-Church Ave. I still wonder why they didn't pull those destination curtains out of those R-7s and R-9s, especially if they knew they wouldn't be used.
I did a similar thing once. About a week after the Manhattan Bridge closed the north tracks in 1986, and the removal of M service on the Brighton line, I converted all the southern terminal side signs from an R16 M line train from "9th Ave." to Coney Island, just to mess with people's minds.
To see it in Green, you'll either need the bulkhead sign from an R16 or R32 - OR - a rare bird indeed - the side sign roll from an R16.
I wonder if the ORIGINAL, AS-DELIVERED R42 roll signs (from cars #4884-4921) that were assigned to the Eastern Division had the "MM" on them.
Wayne
During the R16's final days, I saw more M lines with green MM signs than I did the correct blue M signs.
BTW, I have never seen a single map with the orange JJ line, as the R16's had in their signs. Even weekends and nights when it terminated at Broad St and went nowhere near the Brighton line, the QJ was called the QJ (and was a black colored line). When the M took over for the QJ in 73, it was cut to just J (and remained black).
What the heck was the JJ then?
Wasn't the JJ the name for the KK before it ran on 6th Avenue. That's before 57/6 was ready.
You could sort of look at it that way.
The JJ was a combination of the #14 Broadway-Brooklyn local and #15 Jamaica local. Its service pattern was:
AM rush hours: 168th St. and Canal St. Skip-stop along Jamaica Ave; all stops between Eastern Parkway and Canal St. This more or less duplicated the old #15.
PM rush hours: Canal St. and Crescent St. or Atlantic Ave. or Rockaway Parkway. All stops. This was the old #14.
All other times: 168th St. and Broad St. All stops. This was the old #15.
The FIRST 1967 map had the orange "JJ" along with the "RJ" along Jamaica Avenue. This is the rare map with the multi-colored "SS" shuttles all around and the "NX" super express. The "JJ" even had a leg going out to Rockaway Parkway. "JJ", "RJ", "NX" all had broken color lines indicating part-time/rush hour service.
I think this map has been going for $35.00 up on eBay.
Wayne
Oh I see. The "JJ" must've been what the old #14 was referred to before the KK started in July 68.
Duh. lol
Chris: I don't think any of the post-Chrystie Street routings caused as much confusion as the JJ did with the possible exception of the RJ.
As originally planned this is how the routes would have looked based on the rollsigns carried by the R-27's and R-32's for the BMT.
#1 Exp - Q
#1 Lcl via Tun QT
#1 Lcl via Brg QB
#2 Lcl - RR
#3 Exp - T
#3 Lcl - TT
#4 Exp - N
#5 Stl - SS
#7 Stl - SS
#10 Lcl/Exp - M
#11 No Ltr prior to Chrystie
#14 Lcl - KK
#15 Exp - J
#15 Lcl - JJ
#16 Lcl - LL
I'm sure your familiar with most of this and I only listed it for the sake of completeness. Routes 10 thru 16 never carried letters before Chrystie St and Rt M was used by both #1 and # 2 Nassau St services.
Once Chrsytie Street opened JJ was assigned to the former #15 Local trains between 168 St-Jamaica and Broad St which ran M-F 12 mid-6am
and 8pm-12 mid and all day Sat and Sun.It was also used for the former #14 Broadway-Brooklyn Shortline services which ran during rush hours between Canal St and various destinations. This properly should have been the KK. The use of the JJ for both services did cause considerable confusion.
When 57 St-6 Av opened in JUly 1968 the use of JJ was discontinued. All trains between Jamaica and Nassau St were now called QJ. The Broadway-Brooklyn shortline services were rerouted up 6 Av and were now called KK.
Larry,RedbirdR33
#
As for the KK line: The name had been concocted prior to 1968. In the few times R-32’s ran on the line, the front end sign said “KK – Nassau St”, and the side signs indicated that the KK was a “Nassau Street Local”. This is due to the fact that the signs were printed up in 1964, when the R-32 was built. Apparently the KK was the old 14, while J (or JJ or whatever) was the 15, by that yardstick. Also, it seems that prior to about 1964, the KK name was used for a route that went from Eastern Parkway to Canal Street, and was retired until 1968 when it was revived for the 6th Avenue / Broadway-Brooklyn route.
I wonder how much my map would fetch, not that it's for sale. I ended up crossing out those short-lived routes in the line-by-line notes section.
Many yars ago on my 1968 map (which I still have, thankfully, though it's covered with notes and dates) I cut the little "KK" sign out of the back and taped it to my Atco 45 "Take A Letter Maria" because the song reminded me so much of the "KK" train. Recently I took it off the record label and put it back in place in the hole in the map.
I don't know what ever became of my 1967 map although I still have the introductory service guide from November 1967 showing the new routes.
Wayne
I had that same guide, thanks to my mother. She picked it up while in the city that fall and gave it to me. Unfortunately, it has since disappeared. I do have the brochure which described the second wave of changes effective July 1 and August 18, 1968.
The MM designation was intended to be for a service to run between 57 St-6 Av and Metropolitan Av on the Myrtle Av Line with the opening of the 6 Av-Chrystie St connection. According to the color coded scheme in use at the time it would have been green. During the post am rush some trains did indeed run from 57 St to Metropolitan to lay up at the Fresh Pond Yard. The curious thing is that the roll signs for the R-40's and R-42's as delivered showed this as a KK route. The replacement rollsigns for the R-16's showed this as the MM 6 Av Local with a green background. The additions to the R 1-9's rollsigns list both a KK Av of Americas Local and an MM Av of Americas Local. I rode this service once from 57 St to Metropolitan with a train of R 1-9's and we carried the KK sign.
The MM along with the FF are the only two routes that I can think of that were carried on rollsigns but never implimented. Can anyone think of any others.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What about DD?
The DD enjoyed a brief two week run starting on December 7,1962 due to a watermainbreak that closed the Sixth Avenue subway between 34 Street and West 4 Street. It ran rush hours only between 205 Street and Coney Island via 8 Avenue making local stops.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Were there any articles or other notices that announced the DD. I wish I could remember it.
Oh shucks, I thought the MM was a Mickey Mantle Special to the Stadium.
Joe Korman's website has a scan of the original poster which outlined the temporary service diversions; a G. O., if you will.
In one of the threads I mentioned relating to this topic, the Broadway-West End T line (which, when the Chrystie Street connection opened, was combined with the Washington Heights-6th Avenue BB line to form today’s B) was to have been colored orange. And in a photo published in James Clifford Greller’s New York City Subway Cars, the F was originally intended to have been colored lime green before becoming magenta.
Other colors used for lines that are now defunct include:
PMS 165 for JJ
PMS 185 for HH and RJ
PMS 239 for MJ
PMS 300 for TT
PMS 306 for NX
On the R16 rollsigns, the "TT" was a pinkish color.
Perhaps Mr. Rollsign (Charles Fiori) could provide some insight into that.
I have that same curtain as well. It has an SS sign which was apparently printed on a very stiff mylar and glued to the canvas. In addition, it has an AA sign, for some reason.
Just curious: You sure the MM line-that-never was, was to have been colored green? I’d appreciate a definite word on that to aid me in my charting the course of the lines of many colors.
But in a related matter . . . when the TA was planning its multi-colored routes in 1967, apparently they had intended for the Broadway / West End T line to be colored orange, based on some of the illustrations of the R-40–that–was–yet–to–be–built in the brochures offered for the slant cars (other pictures of which showed a light blue Ewhich would prove to be prophetic). Alas, alack, by the end of ’67, of course, the T was no more, having been combined with the Washington Heights / 6th Avenue BB line to form today’s B line as a result of the Chrystie Street opening.
It definatly was green, the same color as the RR and GG.
Thanks to all of you. Because based on the picture indicated here, it wasn’t all that clear.
It sure looks green in the picture. Makes you wonder if anyone did a double take as that train pulled in.
Funny . . . given the quality of the picture, I couldn’t have told whether it was dark green or probably black. But again, thanks anyway.
That's a green sign all right. Looks a little greyed in the light but it's green all the same.
Wayne
Larry,
Thank you. I vaguely remember them now. I will check some of my old maps tonight.
With respect to routes with multiple terminals:
How about either reviving the double letters (A Far Rock, AA Lefferts) or using number suffixes (A1 Far Rock, A2 Lefferts, A3/A1A Rock Park). For the numbered routes, maybe double the number (5,10) or use letter suffixes (5,5A).
Under the suffix plan, one might even transfer at Columbus Circle from the A1 to the 1A! Help!
Until 1988, busses used that "suffix" system do differentiate similiar bus routes (Q5, Q5A, Q44, Q44A). The 5A train could be used to seperate the Dyre Ave. 5 from the 238th St. special. The 7A could be used to mark Flushing expresses.
I Like that Idea, especially for the A Train which has 3 seperate terminals, it would be easier for the pax, when he sees the train from the end stairs, they don t have to run to find that the train is not going to where they want to go. Also for the B/ As to the IRT Lines the 7 Exp should have its own number as well as the 5 Thru Exp
I think the easy way to do the 'A' is with the cars. All R44 trains go to Lefferts, everything else goes to Far Rock or Rock Park. Easy system, since the only train that looks like an R44 is an R46.
-Hank
Why not just call the "A" to the Rockaways the "H"?
Anyway there are more R44 (274 active) than R38 (196 active).
And they DO have route numbers for some of the IRT Diamond services -
#11 would be for the Flushing Express,
#8 would be for the Pelham Express,
#10 would be for the #5 thru express
They just don't use 'em.
Wayne
Using new numbers would cause too much confusion, especially if you just ride the Lexington Ave line in Manhattan. People won't understand what the 10 means. Calling it the 5A would eliminate this confusion.
02/13/2000
When I eyeballed the testing of the R-142A's on the Dyre test track, the front LED sign was going through a test sequence. The numbers are 0 thru 9 with "S" for Shuttle. Unless there is a provision for double digits, it looks like the R-142A's won't run on the #11 Flushing Express.
Bill Newkirk
That's why I always liked the idea of having front destination signs. That way, you know where a train is headed as it pulls into a station. IMHO, this is something which should never have been done away with.
As for a code denoting special express service, why not use the letter X? It was done once before with the NX. You could have a 5X and 7X.
Express buses in Denver use an X suffix, incidentally.
most subway riders pay absolutely no attention to ANY of the signs no matter where(front or side) of a train either from ignorance,stupidity or outright incompetence...
I'd say all of the above.
...and they pay no attention to taped off areas in stations. I have worked stations with no service in one direction and had to tape off stairways or platforms. I'd find the tape broken and when I ask they say " I thought it was a joke" or "I wanted to find out why the tape was there".
They would then say "bleep you" and go there anyway. 30 minutes to an hour later they would storm back to the booth and complain that there was no train for an hour and for us to let them know that there was no train. (Remember- they broke the tape!). I would remind them that I told them when they came in there was no train due to track work and trains cannot run if the tracks are torn up. "I am not stupid" they say and proceed to cuss me out--- again. Ah, the joy of NYC
Last summer I found myself inside a closed section of the Chambers Street BMT mezzanine. I was transferring from the J/M/Z to the 4/5/6 (sorry, I don't remember which of each triple), so I walked up a flight of stairs and found myself behind a strip of tape! I looked around sheepishly, ducked under the tape, and went on my merry way to the 4/5/6 platform.
I could never figure out why that passageway was taped off. I don't think it led anywhere other than the (NB?) J/M/Z platform, and the (NB?) J/M/Z was certainly running (I would know -- I had just gotten off one!).
I won't even ask what sort of shape it was in, given the overall condition of Chambers St.
What, the closed off section of the mezzanine? No different from the rest of the mezzanine, which isn't so bad (it's the platform level downstairs that's decrepit -- although I'm probably the only one here who likes it that way).
You probably wound up in the north end crossover, which is closed to the street now due to construction in Foley Square.
While Chambers Street's decrepit condition has a certain morbid charm to it, the fissures opening up in the ceiling near the stairs and along the sides of the columns are NOT good. And then there's The Leak (about two-thirds the way up the northbound platform; you can't miss it)....it's SO depressing looking at that scarred ceiling. The rusted metal skeleton is in full view; the concrete has powdered off.
Wayne
Yeah, I guess it was the north end crossover. But you'd think that either (a) the crossover would remain open with the street exits themselves taped off or (b) the crossover would be closed along with the staircases from the platforms below. The half solution that was in place when I was there (close the mezzanine but don't bother closing the staircases leading to it) just doesn't work.
As for the condition of the station, fine, fix up the major problems. But leave all the tracks and platforms (and staircases) visible as a reminder of what the BMT once was.
Most subway riders don't pay no attention to sign or no train running & all they think it catching the trains. I alway pay attention on the station when there is no trains or trains going out of service or last stop. Last week i was on #5 line going to bronx & i heard before going to bronx saying this trains going to 149st & 3rd Av making last stop but subway rider didn't pay no attention when i got to 149st & 3rd Av i got off but half of rider still in the trains & didn't know the train making last stop. So some of them complain why conductor didn't say anything on the speaker & they wasn't pay no attention to the speaker. I see half of riders are hard head & some of them pay attention what going on with the trains.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
It's not always the passenger's fault. Whenever I have the misfortune of riding the NB 1/9 during the afternoon rush, I listen carefully to the announcements at each station as that train has an uncanny tendency to run express on the local track. Every once in a while, it will run express with no notification to the passengers.
(Then there was the time the NB 1/9 I was on pulled into 72nd on the express track. The conductor, oblivious to the world, announced that the next stop was 79th. I, knowing that the next switch wasn't until just south of 96th and that what the conductor claimed was physically impossible, got off and waited for the next train. As for the other passengers...)
Old habits die hard. I saw a southbound 1 pull into 72nd St. on the express track once, and rode it to Times Square or 34th St. More recently, I saw a 1 on the express track and a 3 on the local track at the same station and headed in the same direction at the same time!
Was it on December 26th?
(really, really obscure reference there)
No, it would have been in late October, which is when I usually come out to the city nowadays.
OK, thats one person who didn't get it. Next?
[Was it on December 26th?
(really, really obscure reference there)]
December 26th (in 1946) = the day with the highest ridership in the subway's history. Something in excess of 8 million I believe.
Good answer. But it's not why I made that remark. Re-read the comment I responded to with the above remark.
I love to watch the morons who stay on the #5 at Bowling Green, despite platform announcements, signage and conductor announcements pointing out that the 5 only runs in Brooklyn during rush hours.
How long has this service pattern existed? 11 years?
Morons? No, those are the railfans going for a ride through the South Ferry inner track!
same people going around on the 6 through city hall...
Except Rudy hasn't banned anyone from going around the South Ferry loop. Even so, IIRC passengers aren't allowed to stay on the train; everyone is supposed to get off at Bowling Green.
I once went around that loop on a weekend reroute in 1993. The 5 ran on the #2 line downtown, running non-stop from Chambers St, around the loop and on to Bowling Green.
IIRC, the 5 would enter South Ferry on the outer loop track, then switch over to the inner track just after leaving the station. That's how the switches are laid out.
Not with this service diversion. After stopping at Chambers St. on the 7th Ave IRT, we went non-stop down the #1 line from Chambers St, around the inner loop, and back to Bowling Green to allow the #5 to run northbound on it's proper line.
Yep, did that last year, too.
-Hank
Correct, because the South Ferry inner loop is not designated as mainline track. If I can get to the City sometime and manage to stay on it will be the first time I've ridden those tracks since the shuttle stopped running.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, NYCT had a few "A" bus routes, and NYCDOT still does, but those were leftovers from the 1920s and 1930s, when routes were named that way in order to piggy-back on existing franchises.
For example, the Q19, Q19A, and Q19B have nothing in common except for one or two stops and/or a transfer point. Same for (former) Q44/Q44A/Q44B; Q12/Q12A; Q17/Q17A; Q3/Q3A; Q65/Q65A; Q22/Q22A (school trip); Q9/Q9A.
The only current letter suffixes that actually have meaning are Q20A/Q20B and N22/N22A.
You left out the Q44VP, the Q45FS, the Q25/34, and of course, the Q5AB.
What was the deal with all these, anyhow? I just got my hands on a 1980 map (QB, AA, etc) and it shows buses with Brooklyn route numbers DEEP into Queens.(B22, B53, and B56 at Queens Blvd on the Jamacia Elm for example)
When did they clean up this A, B, VP, FS crap?
-Hank
All lettered bus routes, like the Q5A, as well as those Queens lines which began with B's (B56, B55, B54, etc) were altered to their present states on 12/11/88, the same day the Archer Ave. line opened and the north side Manny B tracks re-opened. Next to the Chrystie St. opening in 67, this must've been the most confusing commuter day in NYC history. I remember it fondly (I cut school to witness the chaos on 12/12/88, the first workday of the new service plan).
If you lived in Southeast Queens and tookbusses to the IND in Jamaica, it was even worse.
The DD marking was used briefly only once, during an emergency reroute due to a 1962 water main breakage along 6th Ave. During this reroute, the C marking made a brief comeback, only to disappear once again until 1985. The FF marking was never used.
Except on the VCR you use to watch the videos of these trains still running.
And if you don't insure, you DD.
Speaking of DD, I remember seeing R-27/30s sporting that marker when they ran on the D in 1980. It would have been strange for those cars not to have D signs. OTOH, maybe the motorman or yard crews didn't crank the curtain far enough.
>>>Got off out 149th Street.{this station needs rehab bad, its dirty and the stairwells are very small and narrow its a very grungy and grimey station}<<<
Do not expect to see any change in the near future, after all it is north of 96th St. The TA only cares about what tourists and corporate big wigs think(and they almost never venture north of 96th St).The TA couldn't give 2 figs about the daily rider,IMHO. Until the riding public gets vocal nothing will change.
While were on the subject, what is the TA's problem about not being able to file a complaint on the net??? This option is available at most other transit websites that I have visited.
Peace,
Andee
Peace,
Andee
The north of 96th thing isn't really that true. What about Utica Avenue? Main Street? The upcoming Atlantic Avenue, DeKalb Avenue and Stillwell Avenue rebuilds? I'm sure that the lions share of all station improvements are in the lower half of our favorite prokaryote.
I do have to agree somewhat with SUBWAYSURF. When was the last time you saw the TA putting in beautiful tiles or new floors someplace in the Bronx. It does happen, but not that often. But what he says is not all true. I've seen repairs north of 96 Street. How about the 181 Street Station rehab on the 1/9? I think the elevated stations seem to be the last ones to get any fixing up, but that's partly b/c they're elevated and get dirty easier. One reason is also that the stations north of 96th Street do not carry as many passengers as the ones downtown. I'm sure 42nd Street Times Square has a lot more passengers daily than let's say 145 Street on the A-C-B-D. That's part of the reason why they make more improvements south of 96th. Why spend money on stations that aren't used as much? But one thing you can't say is that repairs are never done north of 96th Street.
Clark Palicka
TrAnSiTiNfO
Many stations in Brooklyn have been completely rehabbed. 36th St., Pacific and Union St. on the 4th Ave line, all stations on the Brighton line south of Prospect Park, B'way East NY (underway), Utica Ave. (IND), the entire Franklin Shuttle, Bergen St (IND) and Lorimer St (Canarsie line) are just a few.
Some of the worst underground statons are still in the Bronx (like the entire Pelham line south of Hunts Point), but even here, the Ta has dones some rehabbing.
What's up at Brook Avenue? Last time I went through there they had both platforms barricaded with plywood - perhaps they were working behind it - THEN I found whole sections of the original geometric tile band removed! Are they going to replace it with new tile in the original design? They had a nice pattern there - mostly brights (green, blue, red and yellow) - which is a departure from the normal world of subdued colors. The white tile was in terrible condition too.
Cypress Avenue is probably in better condition than most of the stops along that route. Longwood isn't too bad either (some rough spots). East 143rd and particularly East 149th are showing signs of real decay.
Wayne
Not sure. I haven't seen these stations in over 5 years. Im going by memory.
>>>But one thing you can't say is that repairs are never done north of 96th Street. <<<
Then they are done only when they HAVE to be
Peace,
Andee
>>>The north of 96th thing isn't really that true. What about Utica Avenue? Main Street? <<<
Sorry, I was speaking from my point of view. You are correct
Peace,
Andee
Um, the 149th St/3rd Ave. station has been beautifully rehabbed, as well as all the stops on Lennox Ave from 135th St. south.
And in so doing they absolutely BURIED the original "3" cartouches, which dated from 1905, an act for which they shall never be forgiven.
A Pox on them all. See how they preserved them elsewhere, especially at Canal Street on the #6 AND on the three middle Lenox Avenue stations?
Wayne
Part of Old Mott's charm is the fact that is such a glorious mess. And it's made out of really sturdy stuff, too. Basically all they have to do there is sandblast the Norman Brick, touch up the cut marble tile (NO GLAZE), take down some of the signs (to expose a few more of the original tablets), put down a new platform surface, upgrade the lighting a bit and fix a leak near the west end of the station. It's not that big of a rehab job. Much of it is cosmetic. The narrow
stairways and mezzanine - that's a whole different problem.
Wayne
this is true I operate on the 6 line and ALL the subway stations ie: platforms, stairways, and mezzanines all completely rundown and and nasty looking to put it best
From best condition (fair) to worst (decrepit):
Cypress
Hunts Point
(after these two all are in poor to decrepit condition)
Longwood
3rd Avenue
East 143rd
East 149th
Brook
Wayne
the 1 is ending at 168(and Dyckman with no trains between) due to emergency work at 181. What happened that the trains ahd to be stopped?
Don't know - maybe when they cleaned the ceiling they loosened up some of the gunk holding the bricks up and one of the medallions fell down.
Or maybe they have too many PIGEONS in there.
Jus kiddin folks
Wayne :o>
One of the really nice pieces of work the MTA has done is at 125th Street on MetroNorth. Worth a special trip to look at. Yes, I know it's not part of the subway.
>>>Got off out 149th Street.{this station needs rehab bad, its dirty and the stairwells are very small and narrow its a very grungy and grimey station}<<<
Do not expect to see any change in the near future, after all it is north of 96th St. The TA only cares about what tourists and corporate big wigs think(and they almost never venture north of 96th St).The TA couldn't give 2 figs about the daily rider,IMHO. Until the riding public gets vocal nothing will change.
While were on the subject, what is the TA's problem about not being able to file a complaint on the net??? This option is available at most other transit websites that I have visited.
Peace,
Andee
Peace,
Andee
The work going on north of 149 and GC is signal replacement. That section still uses the old IRT signal system while the rest of the system uses the BMT/IND signal system.
They where doing Platform work at Canal Street which is why the No.6 Trains went Express from Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge.
Also Because of the Work on the No.2&5 Lines No.5 trains were running from 149 Street- GC to Bowling Green. So you had two thing slowing down your No.4 Service.
What is the TA's problem about not being able to file a complaint on the net??? This option is available at most other transit websites that I have visited.
Peace,
Andee
Bear with me, I am a recent graduate of the "heypaul" school of foolishness (is that spelling of foolishness correct? I don't want to deal with the "grammer/spelling" police.
Unlimited ride metro cards are a scam, here my reasons.
The 7 day card-
Say, for example that you were to use an unlimited weekly metrocard, for the first time (cards activated on 1st use, NOT purchase) at 2358 hours on any given Tuesday you would expect your card to be good until 2357 on the Following tuesday right? But you would be in for a suprise because your card expired @ 1159 on monday. Walaa!!! You have only recieved 6 days and 2 minutes.
7 days=168 hours in my book. The only way to get the full seven days is to use it for the first time @ 0001 on any given day. Since the card expires @1159 regardless of the first time you used it.
I hope someone out there knows what I am talking about 'cause, I certainly don't. I have been possesed.
Peace,
Andee
Hold on a minute Andee--- as of this moment I have not issued any graduate degrees in foolishness. I am only now putting together the course bulletin for state accreditation. This will really be a big thing, but it hasn't started yet. I will be offering credits for life experiences. Some people without realizing it, have in the course of 15 or 20 years of adult life, have made such a mess of their lives, that they would be granted a PhD from my school without having to take a course.
But Back to your transit question. If someone first uses a 7 Day Pass at 11:58PM, they will get 3 credits toward the degree of Foolishness. I've seen that written up in a couple of places. If someone did not know otherwise, it would seem reasonable that it would be 168 hours from initial use. I guess it makes bookkeeping a lot easier to have all the cards timed out at the same point. Your observation is correct, but really those cards are a bargain. I don't ride transit that regularly, as I am usually chauffeured around in my Mercedes. However when I want to mingle with the masses and breathe in some steel dust and diesel fumes, the $4 Fun Pass is a blessing for a cheap skate millionare like myself. I feel like a kid, running in and out of the system for $4. Personally, I think it is a couple of hundred $4 Fun Passers that have accounted for the millions of new riders each day. Go figure.
Be sure to include on your request for life experience credits for your degree the exact number of times that you first used an unlimited pass after 11 PM. What you wasted on a metrocard will save you 1000's of dollars in tuition to my school. I intend to squeeze every dollar out of the people seeking a degree at my school.
R O F L,
Thanks, I needed that
Peace,
Andee
R O F L,
Thanks, I needed that
Peace,
Andee
did not understand a thing you said though. 8+}
My cat (who's name is subway 'cause he came from Pelham Bay Yard) just went completly nuts as I was reading your post.
This must be a sign. Of what I don't know
Peace,
Andee
and dats da tooth da whole tooth and nuthing but the tooth.......
i disagree with your attack on heypaul is in bad taste at best !
when you buy any transit card figure out the cost(s) first and weigh the benifits
USE SOME COMMON SENSE SIR !! then buy the card that best fits your transit use !! right ???
I was not attacking heypaul and cannot imagine why or how you would preceive it as such. Heypaul is one of the bright spots on this BBS.
Peace,
Andee
All days end at Midnight. I regret you are having a problem with your cards. My suggestion: if you will use a card for the first time late at night you might wish to buy a regular (per-ride) card and start the unlimited in the early AM.
But Subway-Buff, please correct me if I'm wrong. Don't the one-
day unlimited "FunPasses" expire after 2:00 a.m.? I'm pretty sure
I've used mine after midnight. So this is an exception to the "rule," where they give you more than you pay for... if you start
using the card at midnight, and continue for 26+ hours?
3:00am. Close enough. (Yes, they're valid for up to 27 hours.)
The
Right you are Todd! The one-day expires at **3am** (actually 2:59am)
I was recently on the Georgia DOT page for construction of commuter rail in the Atlanta area.
A list of other areas was included as having planned systems.
But what do you think makes commuter rail work? Fortunately, the cities listed have some sort of mass transit but some(Miami) have poor city rail access or just some form of bus(Seattle) and not rapid rail, which is preferable.
And then Atlanta. Where would the trains go? How well could they be distributed around downtown?
In New York, the 3 commuter rail systems have direct connections to the city rapid transit system. In Philadelphia, the commuter rail not only brings you into town but distributes you throughout downtown and Chicago has multiple terminals as does Boston.
Do you see systems in places like Atlanta, Seattle and Cleveland working?
Sure it will work if the rail corridor goes from some place that people live and goes to someplace where people want to get to, amd it is apain to get ther by driving.
Use of existing corridors is relativlely easy. Upgrade signals, track, stations and buy rolling stock. Not cheap but somewhat easy.
If it is not where people are and want to get to then it will not work.
The Georgia DOT's study of existing rail corridors showed that there is too much freight traffic for there to be a commuter rail line on them. Also, the maximum speeds on those tracks is something like 45 MPH. They would have to build their own tracks to compete with the highways. The proposed station would be in a railroad gulch near Five Points and Philips Arena and it would connect to the Five Points MARTA station.
Commuter rail will work almost anywhere there's sufficient people to take it.
The key is to break from the commuter rail mentality, and run trains ALL THE TIME, like what the LIRR and M-N do.
As long as you runs trains in the morning, trains in the afternoon, and not on weekends, people are going to think of it as a way to get to work, NOT a way to get to "the city"
[The key is to break from the commuter rail mentality, and run trains ALL THE TIME, like what the LIRR and M-N do. ]
The Metro North no longer runs its trains 24 hours. In fact, Grand Central Station closes at 2 AM
Atlanta has terrific roads and horrible traffic. Georgia also has the lowest state gas tax in the nation. Therefore, transit fares cannot compete with the cost of gas to get there(yes I know that is not the total cost of driving). Since the traffic has become so bad I am sure some people will try commuter rail. There is a downtown Atlanta but the current Amtrak train station was a "suburban" stop at one time. It is about 1 mile from the nearest Atlanta subway stop that could be used to distribute commuters thru the business district. For the commuter rail they will need a new downtown station. Most downtown property owners thinks that is a good idea except the station should not be build near their building. There are also railroad to railroad grade crossings in Atlanta which would really play havoc with commuter train schedules. So I think it will be some time before Atlanta finishes their study of commuter rail. Add in the two year lead time for new equipment and I don't see anything running for at least 10 years.
in LOST ANGELES ( los angeles ) the BLUE LINE seems to be ok !!
now remember only the BLUE LINE !!!!
How about Metro Link, I liked rideing it.
ok for tourism but face it folks !! MERTROLINK is for mostly rich white suburban type folks!!
it rides like AMTRAK maybe one train links to the san diego trolley and another takes you
on senic rides VERY BEAUTIFUL but the average LOS ANGELES COUNTY -er dosent benefit
from METROLINK !!!! instead they build a SUBWAY TO NOWHERE !!!!
In order for rail transit to work, you need more than 200,000 people working (and more living) in a small Downtown area. I know this, because I compiled data on the number working downtown, and the share arriving by transit, all across the U.S. Atlanta is typical --- only 100,000 Dowtown, and the all arrive by car.
On the other hand, to get much over 120,000 without mind-numbing traffic, you need a rail transit system. It's a chicken and egg thing. Remember the old cities evolved, from streetcars to els and finally subways.
But Atlanta got the chicken (a subway) with massive subsidies, but still hasn't got the egg -- a real Downtown. And the only way to get a real concentration Downtown is to build more in a small area near the rail center. But that means you lose parking lots, making Downtown less attractive relative to the Buckheads of the world. Or you build costly parking garages, that have their own problems.
Were it not for the bigots, I'd say just extend MARTA. It's cheap, and if a subway won't take Downtown Atlanta up to the next level Downtown, nothing will.
the fox ate the egg and then ate the CHICKEN !! try getting public transit to GWINNETT COUNTY !!??
A commuter rail system will work only if there is a sufficiently large employment base in the downtown core. By downtown core, I mean places that are either within walking distance of the rail station(s) or a reasonable subway or light-rail trip away. It is doubtful whether train-to-bus transfers will be sufficiently popular. I do not know exactly how large the employment base has to be, although there's probably some empiracal evidence available. In addition, parking in the downtown core has to be scarce and/or expensive.
Atlanta still has rail tracks near the Underground and Five Points, which in some sense is the most major part of Downtown Atlanta. They had run a relatively successful dinner train from there for several years, although I am not sure of its current status. They could probably use this area easily for all but Northeast area access.
Also for Southern access to the city, the MARTA South Rail Line is parallel and above Norfolk-Southern tracks for a good bit, so the commuter rail could operate like the Boston Providence line to South Station and have a transfer station to the MARTA Rail System.
On the other hand, if they were to only use the current Amtrak Station, the concept is slated to fail because of poor access to any decent transport from there other than Bus. The nearest MARTA subway station is quite a distance away, way out of range of typical walking distance.
As the population in the US continues to grow, and city sprawl into the countryside mass transit will return. Many cities have started that trend already.
Does it make since ... as others have said if they run it 7 days a week and 24 hours a day or something close to it AND people have some place to park AND if the price is competitive (vs. driving & parking a car) I don't see anything to stop it.
For 11 years I did an hour on the LIRR each way, it was generally a pleasent ride (much less stressful then behind the wheel doding crazys on the road). I made use of the time reading or doing that last work item so I could be on my way home vs. still at the office. I'm now have used up a car I bought five years ago with 24K (it has 96K). When I was a LIRR customer a station car (used, low mileage) lasted a very long time.
Some habits never die ... Sat. I took the LIRR & made sure I brought a couple items that I've been meaning to read.
Mr t__:^)
I was in Seattle about a year ago for the APA National Conference and one of the sessions I attended was a "mobile workshop" (basically, a tour) put on by Sound Transit (Puget Sound Regional Transit, IIRC) about the planned light rail and commuter rail in the Seattle-Tacoma area.
The commuter rail, called Sounder, was already under construction when I was there. Sounder is going to use the existing BNSF tracks, but of course stations and parking lots had to be built. Extensive remodeling was and still is (AFAIK) being performed on King Street Station, just south of downtown Seattle, the present Amtrak station and the intended Seattle Sounder station. King Street is a short walk from a busy station of the Metro Tunnel, so it is (and will be) well connected to local transit. Sounder is going to open in stages: Seattle to Tacoma in the next few months, then extended north from Seattle to Everett and south from Tacoma to Lakewood in 2001 (or at least that's what's scheduled).
Some empty blocks (used as parking lots) directly surrounding King Street Station are already being redeveloped with high-density office, commercial, and residential. This open space is due to the old rail yards that used to serve King Street and the huge parking demand of the Kingdome and its successor stadium. Seattle and Sound Transit believe that the demand for ballgame parking will diminish when the new ballpark is served by light and commuter trains at the same time that demand for office space convenient to the train station will rise. Apparently, some developers agree with them. Essentially, since the train station is not in the heart of downtown, they are bringing downtown to the train station.
The light rail from University of Washington through central Seattle to the airport is still in the planning stage -- portions of the routing were still not finalized! But the downtown Metro Tunnel, the intended central-Seattle routing of the light rail, is already in place for several years now.
The buses and trolley buses seemed to be very busy when I was there. The Metro Tunnel is the downtown routing of several lines, which use dual-mode articulated buses (diesel engines and electric motors supplied by twin trolley poles). There are also regular trolley buses and diesel buses on the surface lines, so not all downtown-bound routes use the tunnel. Entering and leaving Seattle, I took the express bus from the airport that runs through the Tunnel (there's a local that uses surface streets) and it was fairly fast and VERY crowded.
Downtown Seattle is never going to be mistaken for midtown Manhattan or the Loop, but it seemed large and vibrant for a city of its size. There are retail, cultural, and entertainment attractions that bring people downtown outside work hours in large numbers. Yes, there are employment centers outside central Seattle (Redmond, anyone?). But:
1) There are outlying employment centers in metro Chicago and New York as well, but nobody doubts that Manhattan and the Loop are degrees of magnitude above Jersey City or Schaumburg.
2) The urban growth boundary cuts down on that sort of sprawl, and between the boundary and the limits of the terrain (no endless plains to sprawl across), development is somewhat more concentrated than it would be in a random city of the same population.
With a busy central city, transit use seemed relatively high, and that with no rail in operation now (albeit with a tunnel in the heart of town to speed things up). It certainly doesn't hurt local transit use that trips within a designated area of downtown are free and that many people arrive downtown carless on the ferries (although the latter doesn't really affect the rail issue).
So, at least in my opinion, commuter rail -- and light rail, though that was not the question -- should work in Seattle.
Interesting posting about Seattle. It does indeed seem like one of the few reasonable candidates for commuter rail, though I'd prefer to see how well it does in practice before jumping to any conclusions. One other thing that might be significant is the current turmoil in Washington's taxation system. Voters last November approved the repeal of a much-disliked annual excise tax on motor vehicles. This repeal has left a major hole in state and local revenues, especially since the voters also made it very difficult to impose any new taxes. It'll be interesting to see what effects all this will have on the commuter rail plan.
When I did my compendia of Downtown Employment (using 1990 census of transportation, journey to work data), Seattle was in the typical, second tier class of American Downtowns with about 120,000, but its transit use was ususually high for that class, at 33 percent.
Perhaps Seattle has a chance of leaping up to the top league. But you not only have to have transit, you to allow density (ie. 6.0+ FAR) without requiring parking, and allow the parking lots to be built on. Normally, the loss of parking spells a loss of competitiveness with edge cities, but if you can get over the hump you might get a denser, transit oriented center.
But no one has pulled this off since WWII.
[When I did my compendia of Downtown Employment (using 1990 census of transportation, journey to work data), Seattle was in the typical, second tier class of American Downtowns with about 120,000, but its transit use was ususually high for that class, at 33 percent.
Perhaps Seattle has a chance of leaping up to the top league. But you not only have to have transit, you to allow density (ie. 6.0+ FAR) without requiring parking, and allow the parking lots to be built on. Normally, the loss of parking spells a loss of competitiveness with edge cities, but if you can get over the hump you might get a denser, transit oriented center.
But no one has pulled this off since WWII.]
Portland's experience might be useful. Even though Portland is considerably smaller than Seattle, its MAX light rail has done quite well, meeting and sometimes exceeding ridership projections. MAX extends quite far into the suburbs and hence has much in common with commuter rail. There's even some evidence that MAX is having a major effect on development patterns, although that might in part be a consequence of regional growth boundaries.
Interesting posting... I have a sister and several close friends in Seattle, so I'm sure I'll make it out that way sooner or later.
Regional growth boundaries are desperately needed here in Chicagoland, but the politicians would never go for it in a million years.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I need some information(history, mostly) on MARTA's subway. Where can I get technical statistics also?
I'll be leaving for Atlanta in May and will spend a good 5-7 hours on the subway and exploring. What's interesting down there? And what's the name of the Amtrak station there?
I do not know much about MARTA bur I do know this do not EVEN THINK about eating or drinking anything while on one of their trains. IIRC they actually ticketed a mother who was breast feeding her infant a number of years back. But, the trains are clean.
By the way does anyone know what the ACRONYM "M.A.R.T.A." stands for?
(this is a sarcastic request, it's what they call it locally, you have 3 lifelines left)
SHAME ON THEM FOR WHAT THEY DID TO THAT MOTHER FEEDING HER BABY !!
you know i am glad i dont live there anymore !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
especially thier cheap toilet paper card transcards which i HATED !!!!!!!!!!
and then you have to SWIPE them TOWARDS YOU on thier BUSES in pouring down GEORGIA RAIN !!!
Metro Atlanta Rapid (joke) Transit Authoirity ?????????
no!! moving ablinos rapidly thru atlanta !!!!!!! the trains are clean ??? with that NASTY CARPET
ON THE FLOOR ??? and the scratched up windows on the rise 1996 !!!
JUST LIKE LOST ANGELES TO ME !!!!
Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta (no racism intended, that's just what I heard).
"Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta (no racism intended, that's just what I heard). "
Well, the racism is intended by those who coined the phrase in Atlanta. The racism is also intended by the suburban communities around Atlanta that refuse to support the expansion of MARTA even though they desperately need it. I guess they both deserve and prefer their 2 hour 40 mile drives downtown at rush hour.
When I was in Atlanta, I decided to go have dinner in Uptown so I could walk around and check out the historic FOX theater. I quickly learned that unless you're homeless or a prostitute, you don't even walk around "nice" neighborhoods in Atlanta after dark, except to and from a parking lot. In addition to the Fox theater I was treated to a cat fight between a pimp and his prostitue where she ended up running topless through a main intersection (9:30 pm on a Tuesday). Everyone else I walked past just asked me for money.
People in Atlanta seem to reserve walking and public transit for tourists and the poor. Although the awful traffic suggests that everyone else needs to give it a try.
I understand that, and people that stupid deserve to spend hours in a parking lot, I mean freeway every rush hour. Maybe I should have said: No racism intended by ME, that's just what I heard.
I didn't mean my statements as an attack on you at all. I understand you were just passing on what you heard. I was actually going to post what you did, but you just beat me to it. I have a friend who worked for Conrail now Norfolk Southern and she has to travel to Atlanta for work occasionally. She told me the local spin on Marta - before I had travelled there myself.
wrong !!! THATS what a racist white boy told me that as i was doing road construction down there 1984-1987
the corrrect answer is MARTA MOVING ALBINOS RAPIDLY THRU ATLANTA !!
I intended no racism. The authors of the statement certainly did.
agreed!! ok !
agreed!! ok !
The official website is at http://www.itsmarta.com/
There is also a pretty thorough presentation in the other pages of this site.
Note that the connection to Amtrak to the MARTA Rail system is not a good one. It generally requires a bus trip unless you have real good walking shoes. And, the worst part is the Amtrak tracks are visible from the MARTA Rail North/Northeast Line.
On the other hand, the MARTA Rail system is pretty decent. I have spent hours touring it and other time using it for a practical purposes. When my son was a Cub Scout, I was actually able to retrieve a needed item from the Boy Scout store downtown, during a two-plus hour layover at Hartsfield Airport.
The East Line sure beats the mess on I-20 inbound in the morning when you park at Indian Creek and are going Downtown like I have done also.
do they still use cheap paper transcards ??
I haven't ridden MARTA Rail for a couple of yeas, the last time I rode I used a token.
do they still use cheap paper transcards ??
Read this post I wrote recently.
As for the Amtrak station, the Amtrak signage just says "Atlanta, GA," but I think people refer to it as the Brookwood train station. MARTA was orignally going to run a line to the station, and it was going to be called "Brookwood." If you stand if the front of a northbound train right past Arts Center, and before you exit the tunnel, you can see the tunnel provision for that unmade line.
back in 1986 i worked for the racist bigoted JASPER ROAD CONSTRUCTION COMPANY .......
we used to watch the marta trains go PAST THE AMTRAK STATION from the freeway...
i mean i WOULD HAVE HAD A DIRECT TRANSFER POINT TO THE AMTRAK.......
but what do i know ????
Today I was on line looking for some new pictures of the R-142. When I ran across some of them in transitalk. The pictures were of them being delivered to Kawasaki. The numbers were 7209 and 7210. I thought that thoughs numbers were to be asign to the R-142(option)? The first number on the R-142A roster is 7211.
.
While taking one of my infrequent rides on the #7 train earlier today, I wondered whether the following would work. As the new R-142's come in to replace redbirds, could a married pair of air-conditioned redbirds be split up and substituted for the non-air conditioned single units on the #7? That way, the #7 could run with 11 air conditioned cars during the summer instead of being cut back to 10 cars. Would it work?
The married pairs have to run in pairs. If not, then the equipment that can no longer be provided by the other car will have to be placed in the now single car. In order to make room for this, the air conditioning would have to be removed. Why do you think the singles don't have air conditioning now?
Not easily. Recall the reason for the married pairs is that one car has the air compressor, and the other the motor-generator and battery. Under each of these individual cars, is also the control group and resistor grids, circuit breakers, and of course, the trucks. All this in a little more than 450 SqFt of space. With A/C. the car has a compressor underfloor, and a pair of evaporator/condensers in the ceiling.
A single unit would need all of the above equipment.
Although, I don't see why they couldn't make a 'triple' set, a sort of menage-a-trois. Remove the M/G and battery from one of the pair (we'd like to keep the air compressor), and splice the car into the pair. Just like the HEP on Amtrak.
-Hank
Or you could remove EVERYTHING from the car and make it a trailer. It would have trucks only for the wheels to roll and third rail shoes only for the lights, heat, (brakes?) PA and A/C that it would now have. The whole double tripsticks arrangement can be added to selected R-36 cars, or always have a couple of work motors around for the moves.
put it this way ALL the redbirds will be retiring in the not too distant future anyway why should money be spent on any modifications to a car fleet being scrapped? not a financially sound idea...with headways of 90 SECONDS during peak hours adding three more trains to make up for the loss of those r33's and having a 10 car consist would put a strain on the line.
...with headways of 90 SECONDS during peak hours...
They currently run 29 tph peak which is 124 second headways.
Glad to know that they can run 90 second or 40 tph headways, without new technology, if the spirit moved them.
Why not just run 12 cars and lock the 12th car. Then they could use existing married pairs and no additional work would be necessary.
The last car would not clear the switches/signals at Main St. And many other operational reasons. Signals would take longer to clear behind the first train possible causing it to be held outside the next station due to the train in front of it being of longer length.
The last car would not clear the switches/signals at Main St.
Of course, they could simply lengthen the Main St platform eastward. The new elevators and escalators don't work, so eliminating them won't be missed. :-)
Also, dont forget that this would require up to 30 extra cars that would be needed for the Flushing fleet. Considering the car shortage, and that these extra cars would not even carry people, it's hard to imagine anyone suggesting this. How long is it before people crowded into car 11 demand that car #12 gets opened up so people can sit down?
There won't be a car shortage as soon as the R-142's come in (unless too many Redbirds are thrown out). And the twelfth car could remain open via the eleventh car -- only the platform doors would be sealed.
That presents a safety problem, with people rushing through the storm door to get into the car with open doors at every station.
Another nice idea, but there's no way they're gonna modify cars scheduled for retirement in the next couple of years.
The simplest idea is this: run 10 car trains and scrap the R33S's.
The simplest idea is this: run 10 car trains and scrap the R33S's.
You have just cut service by 9.1%. Do you plan to add 3 more rush hour trains to compensate for the lost service?
It doesn't cut service. It only means each train would carry 9% more people. If an extra train or 2 can be added, then do it.
I don't see the big deal here. The R33S cars are usually empty on hot days anyway.
If the dampers are being bypasses so they don't open in the summer, reconnecting them to open would at least provide some relief for the year or two the trains have remaining.
Obvouisly, someone thought the things were important to add in the first place, since the first turtle-backed trains, the R-15s, came with recesses ceiling fans but no dampers, while the R-16 through R-40 cars did have the vent openings in the roof.
In theory, yes but with some very major BUTS. Let's say you split a married pair and took the EVEN #'d car for service. First, the blind end has no controls. Not too bad because the single units operate as the 3rd car of the eleven car consists. The blind end also has a link-bar. The draft gear would need to be replaced. Finally, there would be no air compressor but if the other 5 are putting out, the train would still charge adequately. Similarl problems if you use the odd-car.
last time i was there the air worked fine !!!
EVEN IN ATLANTA THE FACTORY AIR DIDNT WORK WELL !!! and on thier BUSES too !!
last time i was there the air worked fine !!!
EVEN IN ATLANTA THE FACTORY AIR DIDNT WORK WELL !!! and on thier BUSES too !!
I remember once hearing talk by older subtalkers and subway fans about the clickety-clack sound that trains make when going over non-welded rail. Well, on the Market Frankford Line, trains make that noise between Girard and Spring Garden Station in the I-95 median. Is this really non-welded rail, or is this just rail in not so great condition.
Also, why is the el structure between 63rd Street and the Millbourne embankment older, see-through style, while the rest of the Market Street el is not like that? If so, why does the whole el need to be replaced, not just that part?
Supposedly, the structure is corroding in too many places for it to be safe for more than another few years.
[Also, why is the el structure between 63rd Street and the Millbourne embankment older, see-through style, while the rest of the Market Street el is not like that?]
Because the elevated structure east of 63rd Street is located in the City of Philadelphia, and thereby under the jurisdiction of building code imposed by the City. The city wouldn't allow open structure to be built over Market Street, Delaware Avenue, and later Front Street, Kensington, and Frankord Avenues.
Most elevated structures at the time were built with the open structure method. I think Philadelphia pioneered the concrete deck structure in 1907, but I may be wrong on this.
The difference is amazing. Stand under (well in that neighborhood take some friends) the structure in both locations. The open structure is a lot noiser than the portion with a concrete deck roadbed. However, both are noisy.
Having a concrete deck roadbed allows for a ballasted right-of-way, but it is far heavier, and places more weight on the supports, than the open structure.
BTW - an very good book on the subject is "The Road to Upper Darby" by Prof. Harold E. Cox circa 1966. This book, along with most of his other fine traction books, is out-of-print.
-Jim K.
Chicago
I think you're correct on the concrete deck. I've heard before that this was the first use of it.
Also, the structure of the Market St el is the problem. The columns are structurally OK but they present a traffic problem on Market St. SEPTA's original idea was to replace the superstructure (the part that carries the trains) and support it with the existing columns. Given the method of work to be done (weekend shutdowns with regular service from 5 AM Mon to 8 PM Fri) this would have greatly simplified the construction.
The idea for the new supports will complicate the work but will result in a cleaner, more open look on the underside.
Also, I beleive that the section west of 63rd St, from the station to the embankment, is structurally speaking the worst part of the El. I've also heard that this is related to the open deck type of construction. I recall as a child going with my father to the old Sears store alongside the El here and how much noisier it seemed than only a few feet away closer to the station.
Hey,
I live about 3 blocks from 63rd Street and the area isn't so bad as long as the sun's up.
[I live about 3 blocks from 63rd Street and the area isn't so bad as long as the sun's up.]
Last time I was through there, December 1999, it didn't look so hot. That neighborhood has changed so much over the years. It is nothing like it was in the late 1960's - when the Budd cars were still new.
The old Sears store is gone now, I guess. When I went past, they had started to tear it down.
There was a tile contractor located on the 6200 block (south side) of Market - Vince Ventriglia. I used to work for a tile manufacturer and we did quite a bit of business with Vince. I caught site of his place, and it looked like it was boarded up. I wondered if he headed for the suburbs?
I didn't mean anything by my statement, but there are places in Chicago that I don't go alone either. Those neighborhoods are not unlike the sights I saw on west Market Street.
-Jim K.
Chicago
The thing is nobody really stays around there except at night. There's a homeless shelter on 63rd south of Market and since they started tearing down Sears, that entire sidewalk is fenced off. If you're walking around there, you're either up to no good or lost.
But walk a few blocks (or one station) west and you are in a forgotten rural place. That's what I love about Philadelphia.
(Speaking of Millbourne Station, I've actually used it 3 times. Has anyone beaten my record?)
By leaps and bounds!
I've used it about 15-18 times for reasons ranging from boredom to using a different station to railfanning.
Congratulations.
Maybe one day I'll talk to one of the station agents, and will see if they know any of their commuters by name (or maybe the station agents at other little used turnstiles, like Glennwood and the eastern one at Fern Rock between regionial rail and the subway).
...by our resident muse, heypaul, is now online at The Nth Ward! Follow the hyperlink to the "Side Streets" section.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I finally sat down to write Metrocard FAQ (considering how long it took me just to start, don't expect it finished anytime soon), and I have a specific question on MC flavors: What are all the types of Senior Citizen/Disabled and Employee cards?
for employees there are two basic types for NYCT employees:
For a female the background of the picture is blue and for males it is red. There is also a large letter on a white background. E is for employee and U is for Universal. An E is good only for NYCT bus and NYCT subway and **not**MaBSTOA. A U pass is good for all local bus except private lines, and the subway.
MaBSTOA employees not having a U pass must pay for the subway and NYCT Bus.
SIRTOA employees must pay for subway and bus and NYCT employees must pay for SIR trains.
LIRR, Metro North, LI Bus is not free to NYCT employees and those employees must pay for NYCT.
Hope this helps.
Also, what color is the special school trip card and is there a Student Half-fare 4?
The student half fare card for grades 7-12 is white with green letters. For grades K-6 it is white with orange letters.
Clark Palicka
The student half fare card for grades 7-12 is white with green letters. For grades K-6 it is white with orange letters.
Check that. Both the half fare and full fare cards are like that, not just the half fare one.
The full fare cards are like that, but the half fare cards are all green.
The full fare cards are like that, but the half fare cards are all green.
Not the K-6 grade half fare cards. They are orange.
Clark Palicka
Sr/Disabled: Are beige on the front, with the exception of the temporary card which is red. They all have a "R" on the back.
- Senior: Boy are green, girls are yellow
- Disabled: Boys are blue, girls are purple
- Other varitions: "Mail & Ride", "AutoGate"
Public School Students: I think there are three colors: green, orange and red, but I don't know much about the red one.
- Green, there are three:
-- 1/2 fare grades K to 12
-- Free grades 7 to 12
-- School trip, good for just two rides
- Ogange, grades K to 6
Internal use, there are two white and light blue
Single ride - it's on "transfer" stock & green in color
Regular, three variation: standard, a lighter color (they've been around for some time, so it can't be just a batch), Tryplex (coated paper vs. all plastic)
Transfers, on paper stock, blue color. Currently they read "MTA MetroCard Bus Transfer". There has been two other variations in general use ... just different words.
MC back: standard, Mail & Ride (M-N/LIRR), TransitChek, w/graphics, plus the above.
Well hope this gets you started ....
Mr t__:^)
I thought all of the SC/Disabled cards were brown, that's all I've seen, explain.
The cards have a front and a back. On one side the color is white with Gold(brown) with the wording on two lines
MetroCard
Photo ID Pass
the other side has the picture of the person along with the proper letter as stated by Thurston. (Employee passes have the same wording on the non-photo side.)
Question guys? As for car storage Am I correct that Coney Island has the most cpacity for storing cars? But from a maintenance point of view that Jamaica yard has the largest shop even over C.I.? And lastly I know that Jamaica is the home yard for the F line, but does C.I. do any maintenance for the F or do they just lay the cars up there?
Coney island is comprised of 3 seperate yards. Stillwell yard, Coney Island yard and City or Ave. X yard. As such, none of these yards are the largest in the system. Coney Island maintenance Shop supports over 700 cars including R-32 Phase II, R-40 Slants, R-68 and R-68As.
Jamaica Shop is the largest by fleet assignment in North America. With 1,042 cars, it's fleet is larger than all but Amtrak and CTA. Unfortunately, Jamaica yard has a capacity of less than 300 cars although it will be expanded eventually to hold a tad over 400.
The largest yard in terms of car storage is reported to be Concourse yard with storage for well over 400 cars. As far as Concourse Yard is concerned, I have not done a personal survey but am reporting what I am told.
Steve, We all know that you're a loyal and proud company man :-), but reading the "Coney Island COMPLEX" document that they handed out our a tour I took there:
- The 3 yards can store nearly 1,800 cars
- The maint. complex is 75 acres, 25 acres of buildings
- Services the South Division of 3,233 cars
- Services the North Division of 2,559 cars
- Also does some work for IRT and SIRT
It's big, real big ... Mr t__:^)
Of course, I'll now have to search the archives for my source of information.
Just trying this out. Thanks, Dave.
A busy weekend here in London,
Central (Red) Line services suspended for more than 5 hours
on the busy Holborn-Bethnal Green section on Saturday evening after a
passenger fell between cars at Liverpool Street station. Transport
police (transit police) declared the area a crime scene-hence long
shutdown.
Today Sunday No Circle (yellow) line service clockwise due to a
derailed train at Aldgate station.................
Regards
Rob ;^)
I hope its all OK for the morning Rob. Last week there were signal problems on the Jubillee at Stratford with lots of delays.
Simon
Swindon UK
I started a thread yesterday on BusTalk that
produced some information that was incredible to me.
I have long been wondering how the TA could produce
a surplus of 200 or 300 million dollars, while at
the same time reducing fares considerably.
I was given some interesting answers by David, ( not
David Pirmann) He told me that the MTA surplus of
$300 million was not a real surplus, but a reduced
deficit of $300 million. They had originally
figured on having a deficit of roughly $400
million. As a result of a subsidy of close to $200
million and increased passenger revenues of $80
million, the actual deficit was only $100 million. Thus, the "surplus" of $300 million.
I admit to having major mental deficits. Was I the
only one who thought that the surplus of $300
million was an actual surplus of revenues over
expenses?
a good question would be how can an agency which cries poverty all the time now claim to have a surplus? creatively playing with numbers to ASSUME a surplus or just try a public relations scheme to look as if they can do something right...
Let's go through this once again.
1. The M.T.A. DID NOT claim to have a surplus, because it DID NOT have a surplus.
2. The M.T.A. reported a Smaller Deficit Than Had Been Projected. We expected to owe "T-H-A-T-M-U-C-H," and now we owe only "thismuch."
3. The media made the claim of a surplus, because Straphangers told them to, and because reduced deficits can't be sensationalized.
An oversimplified example will illustrate the point:
Suppose my projected expenses will exceed my projected earnings by $1000; I now have a BUDGETED deficit of $1000. Then I uexpectedly get a $400 raise and a $200 tax refund. My deficit has suddenly decreased by $600. The $600 is NOT a surplus - it's merely a reduced shortage. I'm still in the red, but there's less red ink than before.
However, Straphangers would want me to spend that $600 in order to match my original budgeted deficit. THAT'S where their "surplus" comes from.
We? Can the rest of us take that as an official statement by the MTA? Do you work for MTA and, if so, in what capacity?
Sounds like something to ask Robert Johnson when he comes back from the military.
In any economic analysis of an ongoing enterprise, if some significant quantity of the monies is artificially 'not accounted' (capital costs paid through other funding steams), then the analysis is a joke. Mind you internationally "respected" auditing firms may certify that the books they have been shown are not obviously cooked, but the numbers are still unrepresentative of the entire picture. Thus surplus, deficit etc. in publicly funded transit are very hazy terms. A more real question might be what is the farebox recovery % for operating expense. If most capital expense is 'off budget' the farebox # is the first approximation of user payment for the service as opposed to diffuse taxpayer support which is harder to track.(sales tax fractions, real estate surcharges, developer fees ...)
On an operating cost basis, the subways are profitable, but so much debt has been pushed on the TA and the buses lose so much money that you have a deficit.
You're not crazy. It's not a suplus in the way you or I would think of it terms actual cash in an account someplace. Politicians have now latched on to the term to build up their own reputations by pressuring the MTA to 'spend' the 'surplus' on various expensive pet projects. The MTA will be in the financial hole again one day.
It's all a matter of "fairness."
Under Cuomo, the state sold the Thruway to the Thruway Authority, running up a huge debt in the authority to do so. People will be paying tolls with nothing in return for decades.
Under Pataki, us transit riding taxpayers aren't getting any state tax dollars put into the MTA capital plan, and far fewer operating dollars. So it is running up a massive debt. Expect the system to start falling apart at the end of this capital plan.
To be fair, all parts of the state have to be ruined to pay for shortsighted decisions that make policians look good.
Operating is operating and capital is capital the two are not allways mixed. One would think that maintenance is operating exp but sometimes it capital and not scored against rev. even though it should be. Where is the surpus? Is there a surplus? who knows
Fare cards and deep discounted fares will increase revenue and ridership so I am not surprised that cash collections are up. What is it paying for???
(I'm not surprised that cash collections are up)
According to the MTA, cash collections are down since the discounts started taking effect. They balanced that by reducing costs, until the last labor settlement.
Dan.... I still don't understand. When the newspapers discussed the surplus of $300 million, did the MTA ever clarify their use of the word "surplus"? Frankly, I am happy if the explanation of the deficit being only $100 million instead of $400 million was what this really meant. I just could not understand how they could show an actual surplus of $300 million dollars while reducing, and in some cases drastically reducing their passenger revenues. Although I find the actual explanation to be something out of 1984's world of doublespeak, at least from my ordinary sense of the creation of money is not totally blown away.
In general, newspapers print what they feel like printing, (or what Straphangers tells them to print), without doing the fact-checking that newspapers used to be famous for.
In this case, MTA would have provided its own statement, either during the story's development or as a follow-up. However, it must be repeated that REDUCED DEFICITS DO NOT SELL PAPERS, whereas surpluses do.
Facts are routinely sacrificed to enhance sales.
After reading your post--- I went to the Metacrawler search engine, and searched for MTA surplus. I came up with the Independent Budget Office's analysis of the MTA's financial health. It is a rather long but readable document that claims that there ARE surpluses. You can access it at: http://www.ibo.nyc.ny.us/transitbrief.html
You know the more I look into the finances of the MTA or even Greyhound, the more I want to put my R9 audio tape into my walkman, and just enjoy the sounds of something real....
( By the way, your handle of Dieselfume conjures up a bus belching out noxious dirty smoke in my face as ride my bike behind it ---- you seem quite the opposite )
.
Who went?? How was it? Any different from other times?
Mel
I went. It was great. I got a couple of good souvenirs out of it.
This was my first venture into the tunnel so I can't compare it to the previous times (whoops Mark don't slip on the snow )
Yeah Allan, I'm all bruised and scraped up. (Yes people, the hill got me) Next time......Nevermind, There is NO next time!!!
Thou Shalt not wander far from thee group..
or risk being isolated in dark caverns..
Sorry you got hurt. I feared that hill myself, and the platforms. Did you use rope like the last time?
The funny thing is I laughed right through it. I didn't mind falling. I did mind landing on rather sharp edged rocks. I am still pulling mud and other things out of my clothes.
I am glad that we had a chance to get in there one more time. The tunnel is truly fascinating. The rope was there but, The mud was pretty unstable. Anyway, It was the best one! We all had a blast. I'll feel it in the morning, though.
Mark W. (Polo Grounds survivor)
"I got a couple of good souvenirs out of it"
A guy from the Transit Museum got the best souvenir of them all, He took a signal!!!
I'm not kidding, A museum employee took a signal!! I can't wait to see what it looks like when restored. The great thing is that the signal will find a permanent home in the Transit Museum where we all can go see it.
BTW
It was so funny watching them try (For almost 30 minutes) to haul it up the hill. (Mark, The part when you fell wasn't) They finally made it!
02/14/2000
I was on those first two PG shuttle tunnel tours. Every one of those signal cases were rusted! If this one can be restored, it would be a miracle. Replacement of color lenses is no big deal too. However all of the number plates are gone. It would be nice if we knew exactly where and which tunnel the signal case from so a replica number plate can be made. I know Jeff H. has the diagram on this.
Bill Newkirk
That great a signal was removed. Post the location of the signal and I will tell what signal it was a number plate nomenclature.
We know that it was 51-R
Hate to bust your bubble, but the signals in the tunnel aren't
particularly distinctive. THere is already an almost identical
signal on display at the transit museum. These were the Union
Switch & Signal units that were being deployed during the Dual
Contracts.
A more significant signal is on the #7 line at 5th Avenue.
I think it is 231C. That is an original, 1904 signal that
was relocated from elsewhere in the system and converted from
semaphore to pure color-light operation, probably around 1922
when the line was extended to Times Sq. If that signal ever
gets replaced, it should be preserved and restored to original
condition. I don't think the Transit Museum has one of those.
It doesn't matter if the signal is a duplicate.
Do you know how much strength and manpower it
took to drive that gem up Sedgwick Hill??
If the TMuseum doesn't check it in, I know a
certain RailFAN who just might "do the LIGHT thing".
Those who haven't made any of the tours, check out this page...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/9thavel/9Ave.html
Some nice pix there, I'm in three of them >G<...
How come everyone is looking down as they walk down the stairs?
>>>How come everyone is looking down as they walk down the stairs? <<<
Those steps are STEEP. You don't want to trip and fall down those...
www.forgotten-ny.com
I went and part of me remains there.
Care to explain????
02/14/2000
Mark W,
What was the head count on Sunday's tour?
Bill Newkirk
I forget exactly but, I believe it was between 12-15.
Head count should be abolished in favor of body count. What if you have some acephalitics or polycephalitics? That really throws a spanner into the whole operation.
And don't get me started on the fact that it is the brain that defines the person, that's crap (and true, of course).
Yeah, I went Again, It was my Second Time..
A rather bizarre scene. During the scene where Swayze confronts another dead man on the subway, a rather weird thing I noticed. Clearly, the scene is filmed on an R38. However, the car # was 4208, which is an R40 number. I wonder why the TA would re-number an R38 just for a movie.
OK, maybe I need to get out more ...
No, that little clip IS in The "GHOST" Slant R40, #4208 itself. Note the shape of the bar beneath the number - NOT curly. Various other bits of the same scene were filmed aboard and included such delightful R38 cars as #4134, #4138, #4143 etc., all signed up as "A". Don't forget - it all wasn't shot in one day.
And the scene with the Skell was filmed, of course, in the closed Lower Level of 42nd Street-8th Avenue. They made no attempt to disguise it as another station.
THE SKELL SEZ (and I quote):
GET OFF OF MY TRAIN!!!
(not you, Chris!) :o>
Wayne
I see. It's a bit strange to see that one little scene done on an R40, with the rest done on an R38. Only subway freaks like us would notice such a thing.
Whenever I see a subway train in a movie I immediately take notice
of two things:
1) What kind of car it is
2) What car number it is, if the number is visible.
I too was surprised to suddenly see the number 4208 jump out at me. One minute they're facing the #2 end in an R38, then BOOM - they're supposed to be in the same car going the other way, but suddenly it's an R40. They call that a "continuity error". Such was discussed a few nights ago on one of the newscasts. Another example of this is in "It's A Wonderful Life" where Jimmy Stewart, carrying a wreath, tosses it onto a table, only to pick up a telephone and the wreath reappears on his arm.
One other movie which more prominently displayed my beloved Slants was
"The Cowboy Way", a decidedly AB-grade movie ("A" for subway scenes and "B" for the featured subway line) with Woody Harrelson. R40 #4310 and #4311 were the stars of the show.
Wayne
Do you think that the last scene in The Cowboy Way is even remotely realistic?
I won't give away the ending for those who haven't seen it unless you don't want me to.
Woops!
Don't you hate it when you spot a mistake right after hitting the POST button? Same feeling you get as you slam your locked car door only to realize that the keys are in the ignition.
Anyhow, I should have said do rather than don't in the previous message. Should read, "I won't give away the ending for those who haven't seen it unless you do want me to."
Sorry about the error.
I never watched the entire movie, but the scene where Woody Harrelson chases a "B" train over a wooden planked Manhattan Bridge trackway on horseback was quite laughable.
02/14/2000
What year was "Cowboy Way" made? It seeems silly to shut down the south side Manhattan Bridge tracks and send the (N)'s through Montague St. tunnel just to lay down planking between the tracks and shoot the movie.
Bill Newkirk
1994 I believe. The "B" was still running R40 then.
Wayne
Not in the least, although I wouldn't want to have been at the end of that rope. Still...good subway footage.
Wayne
I scrutinize any and all subway footage for authenticity: train markings, stations, the whole nine yards. It's too bad they couldn't have used a set of R-42s with B signs when The French Connection was filmed.
The most obvious error I ever caught was in "The Warriors", where the gang is supposed to be on a number 4 train in the Bronx, but the car they're on is definatly an R27/30 signed up as a J. The scene was filmed with this train running express between Eastern Pkwy and Myrtle Ave.
Nobody paid any attention whatsoever to train markings in The Warriors. They're all over the map, so to speak. If you watch the scene where the two prom couples board the train near the end of the movie, in which the train is running underground, you can see a "QB-Local via Bridge" route marking.
What was more stupid than using the QB in a tunnel is that the scene it's supposed to be takes place after midnight, when the QB doesnt run. And when this "train" arrives at Coney Island, it pulls in on the West End platform.
There are enough subway gaffes in that movie to write a novel. Of course, had it been filmed in 1967 or earlier, the QB marking at midnight would have been correct, since it used to operate during nights and weekends before Chrystie St.
Oh and BTW, did you notice that when that train does arrive at Coney Island, it's suddenly morning?
I'm assuming that speed restrictions and track fires which were commonplace in the late 70's delayed their trip for a loooooong time.
Could very well be. I never saw any track fires back then, but I did encounter a wastebasket on fire once, at 28th St. southbound on the 7th Ave. line. Smoke was just pouring out of it.
I didn't encounter any reduced speed stretches, either. All of my subway travel was restricted to Manhattan in those days, except for a rush hour jaunt to the Bronx on a D train, and then it would be limited to the IND and West Side IRT. The CPW express dash was as fast as it had always been.
There was a fire somewhere on the Jamaica Ave. el tracks almost every day in the early 80's. There were also several "red tagged" areas n the Brooklyn ortion, as the condition of the track was so poor that full speed trains could easily derail.
Add to the list of crazy subway errors is an old Barbara Streisand movie "For Pete's Sake". In that movie she runs (?) in high heels down a subway station to escape some gangsters who are trying to kill her. She jumps on an IND train as it is leaving the station. The pillars say "Court St.". The camera fades out and then back in as the train enters the station. Look at the pillars. Again it they say "Court St". Probably filmed at what is now the Transit Museum in order not to disrupt subway operations. Don't remeber what subway entrance she ran down or up but it definitely wasn't Boerum Pl and Schermerhorn St.
There is another entrance down the block, near Court St. It has been converted to a handicapped entrance, IIRC.
:}
As a part of my bizarre hobby of drawing new subway lines on city maps, I started putting some on Philadelphia streets, but the thing is, all the wide streets that go anywhere either have subways or are highways(Philly lacks many wide streets) so I thought about places where I've seen subways under narrow streets.
The first was PATCO. 8th Street in Philadelphia and 5th Street in Camden(yes, I've walked through Camden and still live) are not the types of streets you'd expect to find subways under.
How about in New York? I know that downtown the lines run under narrow streets as does the underground Canarsie line in Brooklyn.
The narrowest street that immediately comes to mind is William Street (part of #2,#3). At a station (Wall or Fulton), the ROW is at least as wide as the street (15 feet) plus sidewalks, and might even invade the building lines on either side.
Nassau st line between Chambers st and Broad st[J/M/Z]
I vote with TMC/MCI - Nassau Street is one of, if not the, narrowest street with any subway beneath it - the section between Broad Street and City Hall. The "J", "M" and "Z" trains run here.
Wayne
I find that squeezing a 4 track line under Fulton St. in Brooklyn to be a minor engineering miracle.
What about six tracks and four platforms under Schermerhorn?
Hoyt-Schermerhorn is partly under property (as is Jay St). That's why nobody wants to build on those lots between Schermerhorn and State.
And that's why the I-beams on the outbound side wear their white tile jackets. Same as at Jay Street - subway is under building/property.
I believe those lots on the south side of Schermerhorn were once occupied by some structures.
Wayne
Running trains under buildings shouldn't be a reason not to build on a site, if the real estate is desireable enough. The 4/5/6 runs under the Grand Hyatt at 42nd St., and the N/R goes underneath No. 1 Broadway. If downtown Brooklyn recovers some more, I'm sure someone will build over the Hoyt-Schermerhorn station.
IIRC, it's built in the air-rights over the Grand Central Terminal tracks. More precisely, it occupies a building that was formerly the Commodore Hotel. Three guesses which commodore. I think the Commodore was built contemporaneously with the Terminal. For that matter, every building on Park Avenue, north of the Terminal to about 59th Street, is built at least partly on air rights over the NY Central tracks.
I say Commodore Of The Bilt.
Fulton isn't so narrow.
I vote for Nassau St. as well.
Nassau Street on the J/M, Fulton on the A/C and Williams Street on the 2/3 are pretty tight, along with the 1 train beneath Greenwich Street. All are downtown. PATH also uses Greenwich Street, along with Christopher and West Houston St. for its 33rd St. line. I think those are a little bit tighter than 53, 60th and 53rd Sts. in midtown but not as narrow as the streets further downtown.
When the 63rd Street tunnel was built in the 1970's, the excavation when from building line to building line along the street, consuming even the sidewalks.
Yes, it was a mess along 63rd for years.
I meant to say 63rd Street in the earlier post, along with 60th and 53rd, but my finger veered to the left and double-posted 53rd Street twice. Sorry.
Locust Street is narrower than 8th Street.
Also, when the Broad Street Subway turns east, north of Olney, what street is it under, if any. I thought it was Grange Street, but I'm not sure.
Locust Street is narrower than 8th Street, IIRC.
Also, when the Broad Street Subway turns east, north of Olney, what street is it under, if any. I thought it was Grange Street, but I'm not sure.
Locust St and 8th St are both the same width (26' curb to curb, 50' building to building). Check Ludlow St - the subway-surface tunnel runs beneath a couple of blocks of it in West Phila (from 33rd St to 36th St). It's only 20' curb to curb.
How about expanding the question to els? I would say Sneidiker Av however not for long as that el is coming down shortly.
The L (Canarsie Line) travels under such well-known side streets as McKibben Street and Harrison Place.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The L (Canarsie Line) travels under such well-known side streets as McKibben Street and Harrison Place.
Is there a reason the name of that street sounds so familiar to me?
-- David
Chicago, IL
Probably the IRT Lexington Line under Joralemon street in the Brooklyn Heights area is one. Also, the N/R running under Montague Street just three blocks north of Joralemon.
Doug aka BMTman
This has always been a wonder for me. WHEN the TA decides to build a new link somewhere[for that matter anywhere],ther are alway the few,the very few that scream bloody murder[Archie Bunker types =awh geez, stiffle already!!!!] NIMBY[ISM] has killed many new links that could have been established through out the city.IF you look at the subway or area map of the city, you will notice large gaps in rapid transit service. QUESTION;Is this so because of the TA'S or MTAs lack of vision ,or is this the results of the "NOT IN MY BACK YARD army? Could it be both?? SEEKING answers and welcomes all takers
A large part of it is NIMBY, whether the issue is a rail line, a prison, or even a senior citizens' retirement home (see recent NY Times article for that one!).
In fact, NIMBY ("Not In My Back Yard") has, in many communities, evolved into BANANA ("Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anybody").
Don't expect to see much built in the forseeable future.
If they don't want it, they don't deserve it.
IF a important link in transit has to past thru a certain neighborhood,say for instance RIDGEWOOD QUEENS, to join two sections of newly built rail line to make it functional,what could be [or should be] done to have this line built? Or anything built,like a hospital,nursing home,hotel,office complex and the like. IS it the fact that anything new represents change to certain way of life, or
could it be that the so-called STATUS QUO would take exception to the preceive invaders as a threat? what do you guys think about that? i realy would like to hear your comments.
[IF you look at the subway or area map of the city, you will notice large gaps in rapid transit service. QUESTION;Is this so because of the TA'S or MTAs lack of vision ,or is this the results of the "NOT IN MY BACK YARD army? Could it be both?? SEEKING answers and welcomes all takers]
Different gaps have different explanations. For instance, the inadequate service in the East Side of Manhattan is attributable to the financial shenanigans (the "Beame Shuffle") that killed off the Second Avenue subway in the 1970's. Neighborhood opposition is at least partly responsible for the failure to reuse the former LIRR Rockaway line for subway service. The fiscal crisis of the 1970's effectively ended plans to extend service to Southeast Queens. Flatlands and other sections of Brooklyn beyond the 2/5 terminus lack service largely because they developed after the era of extensive subway construction had passed. Much the same is true for the Co-op City area in the Bronx. Some parts of Northeast Queens, as well as much of Staten Island if you consider SIRT, simply don't have enough population density to support subway service.
All in all, there's no one-size-fits-all answer.
What the MTA has always needed was a powerful Robert Moses figure to push trains through where needed, NIMBYs be damned.
www.forgotten-ny.com
People get the government they deserve.
so all in all ,what we need are transit advocates.People to push new routes through.Staten Island comes to mind.they need rail service as much as any one,BUT any proposal that came up,was shot down just as fast.THEY DONT WANT IT EVEN THOUGH THEY NEED IT!!.Queens fits this right to the tee.The 63rd street and Archer Avenue lines were designed to operate as a unit[along with the Queens Blvd line],but without the super express and south Jamaica sections theres no way these lines could serve the purpose they were built for[reduce the over croweding on the Queens Blvd subway between Jamaica and Manhattan CBD.] IS THIS because of NIMBYISM or shortsightedness,or just plain stupidity by the powers that be. No easy answers, true.
So what if these people don't want it? I say let them live with the consequences of their ignorance. It's not like these things affect anybody more than these insular snobs.
Rode the E on Fulton on its last day..... The local run is just as good as the epress run. I have a queston. Between Lafayette and Hoyt, there are tracks on the right side of the tracks. Where do this track come from? Where does it go??????
3TM
Not sure exactly which tracks you are referring to since I'm not sure which way you were going. Perhaps this map will help.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
WOW! My browser can finally open that GIF!
Could the tunnel carry m-1 and r-44/r-46 cars if the tight turns were straightened out , or would a connection between Bedford ave and Lorimer St. be better to join the Bushwick branch to gain access to the city and Javits Center.
The 14th street tunnel might be able to handle 75' cars, because it handled 67' cars for 40+ years. However, there are many turns on the Canarsie line which cannot handle these cars.
The tunnel itself is fairly straight, save for a gentle curve near the lowest point. Chris is right: you'd have to straighten out the tight turns before, IIRC, DeKalb Ave. before you could run 75-footers.
Nope, that would be between Grand and Graham.......
3TM
AND - between Montrose and Morgan as well.
Wayne
02/16/2000
TALE OF THE TAPE !!
NYCT R-44/46 75' long
LIRR M-1/M-3 85' long
Bill Newkirk
And the M class is wider too, isnt it. They couldn't run anywhere in the subways.
I thought the BMT/IND was built to take standard railroad size cars. Has the standard changed over the years? Are the M1s bigger than the standard? Did they lie about the capabilities of the BMT/IND? Or, am I just misinformed?
The original Triborough specifications called for tunnels which could accommodate standard railroad cars in the hope that a railroad company could take over subway operation. When it became apparent this wasn't going to happen, the tunnel specs were relaxed somewhat. The 4th Ave. line in Brooklyn does seem to have taller tunnels than other lines, though.
And the heights of the Chambers Street station (another Tri-boro line) are ridiculously high.
Unless it was meant to be the BRT's showcase station in Manhattan.
Naaahhhhhhh.
IIRC, 10' widths are the national standard for heavy commuter rail cars. But I'm not quite sure.
an M-1 will not fit into a subway tunnel. it is just simply too wide. they are much wider than an r44/46 which could run in those tunnels.
The M-1s could run in our subway tunnels. The problem is how long the railcars are. Both tunnels[subway/LIRR] carry 10 ft cars,but the subways are not equiped to carry 85ft caes compaired to 67 -70fttrains. also ,FRA rules would not allow rail/subway cars to run together. The M1/3s could run on the SIRT though.
I also recollect that the platform height above the rail (and thus the door height) for M-x cars is higher than NYC rapid transit cars. This gives new meaning to "mind the gap."
There's also the difference in power - LIRR = 750v; NYCTA = 600v.
subfan
Since the M-1s are 85-feet long, they would have a hard time with any of the turns on the L.
I suppose you could built a link along Metropoltian Ave. from where the L makes its first sharp turn to the LIRR's Montauk division. That would keep the line going pretty straight, but then running NYC subway cars and LIRR cars on the same track would require the MTA to come under FRA regulations, which they're not going to do.
The LIRR did run on the Bway El over the Williamsburg Br during the early part of the century. They had special rapid transit cars and there was a connection from the Jamaica El around Crescent St onto the LIRR Atlantic Branch. They then went on the Rockaway Branch to Rockaway Park.
Not to mention the connection between the Atlantic Branch and the Brighton Line (or its predecessor). I think all these connections were gone by the time FRA came on the scene. Isn't governmental regulation wonderful? Now, we can be sure that none of these things will ever be done again.
If the LIRR still went onto the Bway El over the Williamsburg all the people who complain that the LIRR doesn't maintain their NYC Stations would have a field day with Chambers St!! (I know, the LIRR didn't go that far)
Well, as a matter of fact, it did. There were separate fare control zones at Chambers St.
IIRC, the LIRR used the middle platform at Chambers during it's brief partnership with the BRT.
Yes, MP41s ran to Chambers.
I meant northbound(Manhattan bound). I understand now it is the G tracks...........
3TM
Those are the Fulton local tracks that continue on to the Court Street station where the subway museum is located. Originally, the idea was to treat that station in downtown Brooklyn the same way WTC is used in lower Manhattan, as the terminus for local trains serving along with the A train (eventually, it was supposed to be hooked into a new East River tunnel, but that's another story). The line only lasted about a decade.
If they had known nothing else was going to be built, it would have been smarter to connect the Fulton local tracks directly into the F tracks between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Jay-Borough Hall. That way, the E would never have to share trackage with the A and could be used full time as the Fulton local between Hoyt-Schyermerhorn and Euclid, then use the Rutgers tunnel to Manhattan and switch back to Eighth Ave. before West Fourth St. The C could then terminate at WTC.
Why would the E run to Brooklyn and the C terminate at WTC? Reverse that -- have the C run to Brooklyn and the E terminate at WTC, like everybody's used to.
the C is just the A makin local stops, E service would suit everyone better
The E runs too many trains for Fulton St's needs. All it does is congest the line between Hoyt and Canal. The C is more than adequate.
Another problem with E in Brooklyn is that theres sometimes delays in Queens. The wait is usually longer when the E went to Brooklyn and the trains would get more crowded. Like 3 or 4 F would pass by Lexington before an E comes.
The Queens line crowding does screw up service in Brooklyn. Perhaps when the 63rd Street tunnel opens, this will abate.
Currently, the TA sends 18 Fs and 12 Es through the 53rd St tunnel at rush hour, but it only has 14 Fs coming back. Switching Queens terminals if necessary, maybe the TA should run 16 Es from Jamaica through the 53rd St tunnel, then run 14 F's through 63rd St, along with the second 6th Avenue local. This would eliminate the merge at 53rd Street, and make the E a straight crosstown.
Uh, the E fails to serve anyone north of 53rd Street at all. There are a lot of people up there, you know.
No, what I was trying to say is (if they had enough trains of course) if they had connected the Fulton local tracks directly to the F train's Rutgers tunnel tracks, you could boost Fulton Street service by using the E train instead of the C, because the E and A would not have to share trackage between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Canal Street.
The E could run to Manhattan along with the F through the Rutgers tunnel, then switch back to the Eighth Ave. tracks between Broadway-Lafayette and West Fourth Street. And since the E and F already share trackage between Fifth Ave.-53rd and Union Tpk-Kew Gardens, we know the Rutgers tunnel could handle the capacity of both lines. Cranberry tunnel can't do that with the A and the E.
If the E is providing local service in Brooklyn, then the C would terminate at WTC.
But as I said, this would have worked only if they had built the connection at Hoyt-Schermerhorn back when the original line was constructed. They didn't, and there are one or two things the MTA has to deal with now that's more important than increased Fulton local service.
There's no need for more Fulton St. local service. The E trains running on 4-5 minute headways in Brooklyn were always half empty.
Believe it or not, on of the East River Crossings Study plans was to build a connection between the Hoyt St. local track and the Rutgers tack at Jay. This was basically to have 6th Av. trains on Fulton to either serve the Franklin Av. station, or connect to the shuttle tracks in the event of a Manhattan Bridge closure. But both of those were rejected as being too disruptive and expensive to construct.
If the aim were to improve Fulton Street local service and locals weren't forced to share tracks with expresses between H-S and Chambers (as per your suggestion), I'd prefer to decrease C headways. The C is already treated nearly as poorly as the G, and I'm afraid your proposal would lead to the death of the C.
Would the C fit along with the E if service were increased? As you point out, the E shares trackage with the F in Queens. Unless C service is increased beyond the level of current F service, there wouldn't be a problem.
With the few number of trains, the C is like type O blood -- it can go anywhere. I was just saying that running E and A service between Canal and Hoyt Schermerhorn is not feasible during rush hour, because you're over your safe limit of trains through the Cranberry tunnel.
If they had hooked the Fulton local tracks up to the F at Jay St., the E and A would never have to share trackage, solving the Cranberry dilemma (sounds like a Thanksgiving Day crisis) while the C would still have to run to provide local service from WTC to 168th Wash. Heights.
I think you're referring to the part of the line where the G line runs alongside the Fulton St. line. From Lafayette St. going south the G tracks are to the right of the southbound local tracks. They eventually grade downward an reappear in the middle at the Hoyt-Schermerhorn St. station. Sometimes when a southbound G and a southbound C leave Fulton St or Lafayette Ave. (which are right next to each other) at the same time, you can get a race to see who gets to Hoyt first. The G always wins, for some reason.
Acually this was Northbound (Manhattan bound). I did not see these tracks on the southbound local........ That is why I stated between Lafayette and Hoyt instead of Hoyt and Lafayette. Sorry for the little misunderstanding.....
3TM
I said southbund because the tracks are still continuing south at the point described.
I got your point.........
3TM
A little background: On Feb 8 2300 someone announced a tour of Manhattan Beach LIRR remnants trip, using my handle and webtv address, and in the announcement gave my phone number and address. This message came onto the board by way of a web address that provides people with an anonymous web address.
Tonight I found the following e-mail which was sent via an anonymous mail relay at www.no-id.com. I am posting the message here. I do not feel I am violating my anonymous correspondent's privacy by posting it, because he/she/they continue to be anonymous.
"hey paul, sorry about posting your residence & telephone info on subtalk, but we were getting sick of your endlessly annoying posts, so one assinine action begot another one hope nobody called or came by, so be nice and we won't have to go down to your level again."
I'm an easy going person, who really doesn't look to make trouble for anyone. I accept your apology or regret for what happened. No one came by, although one person did call about the message. I am sorry if my posts are causing you distress. If I felt that enough people were sickened here by them, I would withdraw from this website--- an action that I was considering yesterday morning around 0800, for different reasons.
I found your bogus post to be mostly amusing, although it was in poor taste to give out my phone number and invite people to call.
However-- your final remarks "so be nice and we won't have to go down to your level again." require a response. First, I am sorry you have had to come down to my level. It must be humiliating for you.
Second, I am sorry that you find it necessary to post your displeasure in the way you did. Third, if you find it necessary to pull any more pranks, I will contact the anonymous service you used originally and file a complaint of harassment.
I really hope neither of us goes against "our better natures", I don't think it would be much fun for anyone involved.
peace
heypaul
Most of us like your humorous posts. Sounds like some uptight _sshole ...
heypaul,
Your posts are the first ones that I look up when I have been away from the site, which seems to be a lot lately. I think everyone who posts here enjoys your humor!
I have a feeling that the person or persons impersonating you are not even regular posters, and may only be "readers" who have never posted to Subtalk. Do not let it get you down!
thanks karl & chris... i don't think this is getting me down, as much as intrigued... i feel that the anonymous poster is closer to this scene than you think... who it is and why the subterfuge has me curious... but i'll just try to take it humorously... it was really clever
I think most regulars here would agree that your postings among the brighter spots of this board. If for some reason somebody doesn't like them, nobody is putting a gun to their head and forcing them to read your postings.
All they have to do is skip over your postings if they don't like reading them. Invading your privacy like that is inexcusable, especially when doing it while hiding behind the cloak of anonimity. Such actions are the actions of a coward.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Amen.
Heypaul - DON'T YOU GO ANYWHERE! Do NOT let the troll get the better of you, however reprehensible their actions may be.
He who tires of SubTalk tires of life itself.
Wayne
I have only one question for you.
Third, if you find it necessary to pull any more pranks, I will contact the anonymous service you used originally and file a complaint of harassment.
Why are you waiting for him/her/it to pull any more pranks before complaining to the anonymous service?
david--- I took this thing originally as a goof, and later became more concerned about people posting messages that could be libelous using someone else's web address. Then I became kind of interested in the well-being of this message board being threatened by people who could make up phony web addresses or as it turned out post from non-traceable addresses. Hopefully, these risks will be eliminated if the password system works out.
My third point about lodging a complaint against that anonymous webservice was meant as much to say to the anonymous poster that i really have no intention to be a nice boy to please them. As I have gotten older, I feel less willing to try to live up to other people's expectations or desires of who I should be. A more difficult lesson seems to be for me not to try to want people to act more to my sense of what's good. Hopefully I do not cause too much grief to others, and frankly the person posting their spoof did not cause me any real pain.
I think one of the principles of the physicians oath is "first, do no harm". It serves as model to all of us.
heypaul, your contributions to this board are most worthy, especially when compared to a jerk who has to hide behind an anonymizer. The concensus is that you are a valued member of the SubTalk community so, don't feel unwelcome.
John J. Blair
"...be nice and we won't have to go down to your level again."
heypaul,
This remark is a vicious threat against you and the whole SubTalk community. I understand and respect your desire to make amends with this 'person' but the powers that be should do all that is possible to remove this creep from the board forever. The entire SubTalk community would back such a move.
The fact that someone would take offense at your postings shows them to be incapable of interacting with decent folk. Not to mention the fake post which by itself should be grounds for banishment from SubTalk.
Alan Glick
Whoever posted the original post has to be someone that you have at some time or another exchanged Email with. In order to look up your address or phone they had to have your name. Or (hopefully not) someone you actually gave your name and phone number too. They also have had to be someone who has been at SubTalk a while to know about your interests in the Manhattan Beach Line and the facts about it such as the private property. It definitely had me fooled, so much as to wonder why you would give your personal information on the web. I was actually thinking of going on the trip. Also there is the possibility that the person that emailed you is a different person than the original poster.
Heypaul's name is in his e-mail. He's known to live in Brooklyn, so if he's listed, that's a way. Another thing to consider is for you (heypaul) to review everyone to whom you've sent something, they could be your suspects. Not I, as nobody guilty would put forth a theory that would cause them capture. Unless they are trying too fool someone. I better shut up while I'm still ahead (and abody).
You forget Pigs of Royal Island--- to the rational mind someone wouldn't cast aspirations on themselves, but I am not dealing with a rational mind. I am dealing with a complex number mind, and from that perspective you were the first one that the Board of Inquiry of the officers of the Caine investigated. However, they were all disloyal and failed miserably to nail you.
Your punishment will be to bear your handle Pigs of Royal Island on this message board for all eternity.
And don't point out to me that I used aspirations instead of aspersions---- I no watt I am duing.
heypaul, I already told you who I'm 99.9% sure posted under your name -- and violated your privacy by including your phone number and address.
I'm certain that this simpleton will show his hand again in some way. It's his stock-in-trade. Alot of railfans are familiar with his M.O.
Chat with you later.
Doug aka BMTman
HeyPaul,
I as well enjoy your posts, they are a great escape from the opposite end of Jeff H. technical posts >G<.
If you want SubTalk to end up like BusTalk did, keep this up. Otherwise, get your acts together or we aren't going to have a message board!
"so be nice and we won't have to go down to your level again."
God, what a psycho - heypaul, I can tell you that I usually find your somewhat zaney posts ammusing, and, on those occasions where (at least in my opinion) they are flat, at least they are not offensive or threatening. The new login/handle system soon to be in place should help you avoid this problem in the future. It may keep me from posting,though - I use yahoo! as my return address, and, for business reasons, must be completely anonymous; therefore, even though I don't believe I have ever flamed anyone on this board and generally post on topic, I am to be banished, never to be heard from again. :-(
subfan
Hey subfan--- for someone who claims not to make inciting posts--- your first few words could offend almost everyone here. You said:
God, what a psycho-heypaul
Are you saying:
1) God---- what a psycho.
2) God, what a psycho is heypaul
I don't entirely understand what the problem with revealing your name would be. Since the new rules will soon be going in effect, I am starting up a fake id service for subtalkers who wish to fly below the radar line. This has to be done very discreetly. E-mail me, and be sure to include the following words in your message --- "vinny voltage says watts the unit of power"
Thanks for the kind words about my posts. However, I am never flat. Those are times when you are feeling off speed and can't keep up with me...
heypaul,
To answer your first question, no, I don't flame posts on this board; the comment in that case was in response to an e-mail you received and posted (a bit hair-splitting, but a distinction). Second, my intent in responding was your option 1 - 1) God---- what a psycho. - I was not referring to you, but the letter writer you quoted. As for your humor - well, let's just not even go there :-)
subfan
It shouldn't keep you from posting - only Dave Pirmann will know who you really are, and he's not going to spill any secrets.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Unless the MTA bribes him with a special yearly unlimited Metrocard in whatever falvour he wants.
No, Dave's too ethical for that. He's given us his word, and I consider that golden.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dollars to Doughnuts he'd cave if that yearly unlimited, personalized flavour, Platinum Metrocard also came with a cab pass for any train in which he could squeeze into the cab with the driver/engineer, Metro-North and LIRR included. Either he'd cave or his head would explode from the difficulty of the decision.
I thought they were saving Platinum Metrocard for when they make a smart card.
I'm as pleased as anyone about the rehabilitation of so many subway station over the past decade. As great as some of the stations have come out in terms of respecting the masterful and creative workmanship of the original artisans who built them, there are numerous embarassing examples of rediculously poorly thought out reconstructions. I for one would rather the MTA redo half as many stations if it meant that they would do REALLY good work on the ones they did.
Among other things, one mundane error is that in the reconstruction of the floors, they've left numerous floor drains at high points, so that the water flows away from the drains when it rains.
Care to mention some other examples?
Those wonderfully shiny tile floors that let you go ice-skating on a cold wet day.
I took my 3 1/2 yr old son to Manhattan today for the day and rode the 42nd St Shuttle for the first time in MANY years. (if I ever have to go crosstown on 42 I subconsciously automatically go for the "7" Train or I walk) I noticed getting off at Times Sq there was a very big gap between the train & platform. Since I know that station and line has always been IRT since 1904 I was wondering about the gap. Did they ever use BMT/IND cars and altered the platform for them?
On a completely unrelated aside it seems my old friend, Murphy's Law was with us. To go home we took the 6:12 Ronkonkoma train out of Penn. We use Mineola Station. With the 6:12 there is a connection to Oyster Bay at Jamaica. Both the Ronkonkoma train & the O.B. train stops at Mineola with the O.B. train usually right behind it. Since me & Arthur were riding MU's all day on the LIRR & the subways we wanted a change of pace and take a diesel, whether it be an old 1955 coach or a new tri-level. Well as soon as we got off the Ronk train at Jamaica and the doors closed, thats when they made the announcement that the Oyster Bay train is running late due to equipment trouble. We waited about a half hour!!! By the way, the tri-level had a loco on both ends, even though the train isn't a dual mode.
The platforms are curved, that's why there's a gap. The shuttle trackways are too narrow for B-division cars.
They are too narrow because the shuttle tracks are part of the original mainline of the IRT. The shuttle station is the location of the original, local, Times Sq. IRT station.
Speaking of, am I wrong, or is 42st the only street where every express to Midtown stops? There's no 34st on the Lex, 14st on the 6th Ave line is a local stop, 23rd is all local, Canal is only an express stop on the B'way and 8th Ave lines.
-Hank
Very possible about 42nd Street being the only express stop for all subway lines. (Although, when the subway first opened in 1904, even Times Square was a local stop; that was what became the westernmost terminus of the 42nd Street Shuttle.)
Not in Midtown, but 125th is another all-express stop. Well, the center track on Broadway does bypass the station, but that track is not used in revenue service.
[By the way, the tri-level had a loco on both ends, even though the train isn't a dual mode.]
Depending on the engine s/n it may have in fact been a dual mode. Typically the other type (diesel only) has a cabed coach on the other end. The LIRR has plans to offer some dual modes on all it's lines.
Speonk was the first to get them.
P.S. to the comments by others on curves at Times Sq ... did you notice the moving platform that fills the "gap", provided you step down ... South Ferry has a better one.
Mr t__:^)
It might have been a dual mode train but it was on a weekend run from Jamaica to Oyster Bay which doesn't need dual mode since it doesn't go in any tunnel.
South Ferry has individual gap fillers which line up with each set of doors on the train. The ones at Times Square are not quite the same.
The Gap fillers at 14th line up with the door also
I've seen the LIRR trainset he is talking about. It is two DE-30. Both engine # were in the 400 range.
-- Kirk
Anyone know the hours and days of operation? I went there this afternoon and it was closed. Someone said its closed on Sundays. I was shocked to find there was no posted hours or days anywhere at the store, something that almost any business in the world has posted!!
I think it says on the MTA's website.
www.mta.nyc.ny.us
Hey! I remembered that!
The hours are here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks, and to think I walked past the Times Sq Visitor's Center & didn't know there was a Transit Museum Store there.
Yes, but it's VERY small. Mostly MetroCards, maps & key chains.
Mr t__:^)
Headline News had a clip about a Baltimore Yellow Line LRV over-shooting the BWI station and hitting the bumper. Several cars jack-knifed at the platform.
I read about that in the Metro this morning.
Any word on the cause? Is the operator being tested for alcohol or drugs? Any indication of maintenance failure or design defect? Sabotage?
Anyone hurt?
Find info here.
Car 5049 (one of the second order) failed to slow to the proper speed at BWI and hit and overran the bumper, also damaging the canopy roof.
22 people, including the operator, were taken to area hospitals, including 2 to Shock Trauma. The NTSB and MTA are investigating.
The BWI station is closed until repairs are made. It is expected to reopen on Tuesday. The car was rerailed and removed to the North Avenue LR shop for
investigation.
The operator's name was not released.
This is the first serious accident on the Light Rail.
If anyone is interested I scanned the 1910 Public Service Commission publication describing the pre-Dual Contracts proposal to build a Tri-Borough Subway. It includes a system map. It is posted on:
www.bmt-lines.com
Thank you,
That's what this board is all about, information sharing.
There's a strong possibility I may be visiting New York City for a couple days around the weekend of March 31st. (Actually, I'll be flying into Boston from Chicago, meeting with some people and doing some exploring there, and then swinging through NYC before coming back home.)
As it stands now, I'll probably be arriving on Friday morning (3/31) and departing the following Sunday (4/2). I plan on staying near the 72nd Street stop on the Broadway IRT. Of course, this is still fairly tentative, so my plans may end up being changed or cancelled altogether. I'll be sure to announce when things are more definate.
I'd be interested in meeting up with some other SubTalkers. Heypaul has already graciously offered to give me a grand tour of the 3-track subway line at Gerritsen Beach.
All this talk about Kosher delis (and the discussion of Chicago-style vs. New York-style pizza earlier) has me thinking about food in New York City.
While I'm in town, I'd like to sample A) the best reuben sandwich the city has to offer, and B) the best, most authentic New York-style pizza the city has to offer. Where might I be able to find a sampling of each?
I'm looking forward to seeing NYC again... More and more, it's becoming like meeting an old friend.
Thanks in advance,
-- David
Chicago, IL
Remember, if you want to see that 3-track line to Gerritson Beach you have to take a Second Ave express and transfer at South Fourth St. for the Utica Avenue local...
Let us know if there are any particular stations or lines you want to see...
Let us know if there are any particular stations or lines you want to see...
Hmmm.... How about the Second Avenue Subway? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
[While I'm in town, I'd like to sample ... the best, most authentic New York-style pizza the city has to offer.]
Avoid any place with the word "Ray's" in its name. There are at least three or four local chains that use some variation on that name (Ray's Authentic, Ray's Famous, etc.), and none of them are particularly good.
Who was the original Ray? (I mean original, not Original if you know what I mean).
Sandwich -- Carnegie Deli, 7th Avenue near Carnegie Hall.
Pizza -- there is an architypal NYC pizza parlor just up the steps from the Fordham Road stop on the Concourse line. Nothing fancy, just straight NYC pizza. Pinos on 4th Ave in Bay Ridge is good too.
Post before you leave. I can't plan my schedule that far in advance.
There is Katz's on Houston St and a couple Pizza places in little Italy. Katz s may now be Kosher, but it is typical NY. Also a small Pizza Parlor in the Village on the SW corner of Bleeker and McDoughald is good too. Yeh there are the few in Midtown Delis Carnagies etc.
Well, you won't find a Reuben in any Kosher deli. Cheese with meat is forbidden.
For pizza, I'd suggest this--try a slice in a few different places. Pizza is still a cheap snack and "best" is very much a matter of personal taste. But I agree--avoid any place named "Ray's [anything] Pizza."
Or those places that advertise "hamburgers, pizza, subs, chinese food, seafood, and burritos" (saw quite a few of those in the Landover, MD area a couple of weeks ago).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can try Zabar's (If they're still around) for some decent deli stuff....of course, in almost any neighborhood, you can sample some of New York's finest pizza and in the midtown area, a hot pretzel, knish. With a trip to Coney Island and sample some of Nathan's Famous on the boardwalk to wrap up a fun filled weekend excursion in our wonderful city....I think I need to come up for a few days myself for that matter.
I finally got a look at the ancient map at the 57th Street station. It's kind of hard to find, since it is on the back of one of the plastic panels for the new maps. Unfortunately, there's a plexiglass booth wall in front of it, so it's difficult to get a good picture of it. I tried with a flash and without, so we'll see what happens. It looks to be the sytem in the mid-Seventies, after 1973 (when the Third Ave El was eliminated in the Bronx) and 1978 (when they got rid of the double letters).
Of additional interest is the presence of two honest to Betsy phone BOOTHS, with doors that close.
BTW, 57th Street seems to be the apex of 1960s utilitarian subway design. The mezzanine is cavernous with relentless gray paneling, and the platform tiles are the same uniform stuff they defaced downtown IRT stations with, only colorless. The message is. "Move along. We're here to collect fares, not be a part of this Fun City/I Love New York business".
www.forgotten-ny.com
The period from 1955 (Grant Ave. on the A line) to 1968 (57th St. and Sixth Ave.) was the era of the small retangular station tiles. Then the MTA took over and things got even worse with the Broadway/Fourth Ave. BMT modifications. The pseudo-brick experiments at 49th St. and Broadway and Bowling Green came next -- some people don't like them but at least they're better than what had been done for the previous 20 years -- along with the partial blue tile job just north of BG on the 4/5, after which the traditional look finally returned.
The 57th and Sixth station qualifies as the most boring-looking station in Manhattan, IMHO, though other people may have different ideas.
I think it's OK for one station, but I would hate to see it all over. It sort of fits in with the glass box "architecture" above ground on that stretch of 6th Avenue. They've done worse.
Actually that part of Sixth has more brick buildings. There are more glass boxes in the Radio City area.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I love this station. Even though it's 32 years old, it looks virtually the same as it did in 1968.
At least with Grant Avenue they attempted to stick with the 30s-40s IND style. After that, they just wanted to save a buck and use monochrome tile.
Y2Kevin
Fifty-Ninth and Lex had the same color tile as Grant Ave., didn't it? Not that it looked any good or fit in with the rest of the station, but they did go with non-monochome there as well.
Actually, double letters were eliminated in 1985. The exception is S, which was changed from SS in 1979. The map at 57th was used between 1967 and 1979, with a minor modification in 1972, and an even more minor one in 1968. The current map came into use in 1979, with a 1995 modification (that became the main map in 1997).
The map is dated 1974. Also, double letters were eliminated in 1985, not 1978. It was 1979 when the new trunk-line color-coded map we know today got introduced.
Actually, the 57th-6th station was the last to use the style of 1930’s variation IND typesetting anywhere in the station; it must’ve been done around the same time as the extensions of the IRT Seventh Avenue stations between Franklin and 34th Streets, from what I can see, while the Grand Street station (which opened Nov. 26, 1967) had the same type of design idea (circa 1962) as not only the express platform of the 59th-Lex station, but also many Lexington Avenue extensions (including Brooklyn Bridge-Worth Street before the rebuilding job).
That 1974 map, which was the last to feature the EE and K lines, was actually the second variation of the 1972 design. The first variation was used in the first two versions of the map (the first with the QJ, KK and E route to Far Rockaway and the second with the J and K); the second variation began in ’74, and was updated in 1976, ’77 (the last to use Pantone PMS colors for the multi-colored routes) and ’78 (which used 4-color printing and was the last with the 1967-era route coloring).
Someone ought to but it in a glass casing before it's totally destroyed. The last time I saw it, (Thursday, last week) it is a wreck. Pieces of it have worn away and been torn off and there was gum on it. This is no way to treat an antiue!
Boy, this fellow knows his maps.
As I recall, I believe several versions of the '72 map were printed in two styles. One had the route bars on the rear, and one had a blowup of Lower Manhattan/Downtown Brooklyn on the rear.
The conductors used to clip the route bars out of the maps and paste them inside their hats, so with a glance they knew what station to announce as next on the PA system.
IMHO, a stylized and semi-scale version of the '67 map would have been about the best. I never cared for the '72 version (too drab). I always liked one color/one route, dashes and diamonds for rush hours, etc. Thick and thin lines for trunk/branches would have worked too.
FYI: To any Boston types, I know of several old (late 60's) enamel maps, one at Chinatown and one at Orient Heights. Perhaps there are more.......
Thank you for the compliment about my knowing about vintage subway maps. Some threads back (since probably deleted), I had mentioned about which Pantone PMS colors were used for the various routes between 1967-78, on the uncoated paper stock on which these maps were printed. One of these days I shall be doing the same favor (Pantone PMS color identifying, that is) of the color scheme introduced in ’79.
02/14/2000
If 57th St and 6th Ave is the most boring station on the T.A. could Grand St (B)(D)(Q) be far behind?
What was unusual about 57th & 6th was that the restrooms were outside the fare control area which could be accessed by just walking in from the street. As far as the station downstairs is concerned, God!, at least paint those columns a pastel color.
Bill Newkirk
I got a shot of that map. I even got a part of that old phone booth, too. Click here to see them. (485K)
FYI - On Sunday afternoon, 2/13/00 a 2-car Baltimore MTA light rail train had the wall at it's BWI station. The last I heard several people were taken to area hospitals.
Wayne
Car 5049 (one of the second order) failed to slow to the proper speed at BWI and hit and overran the bumper, also damaging the canopy roof.
22 people, including the operator, were taken to area hospitals, including 2 to Shock Trauma. The NTSB and MTA are investigating.
The BWI station is closed until repairs are made. It is expected to reopen on Tuesday. The car was rerailed and removed to the North Avenue LR shop for inveastigation.
The operator's name was not released.
This is the first serious accident on the Light Rail.
Find more info here.
Happy Valentines day to all SUBTALK participants...
Peace,
Andee
Sorry about the typo
Which typo???
hey andee--- that was a really nice thought to start the day for us folks on this site---
perhaps the day can serve as a reminder to be
kinder, gentler, and more understanding to each
other here on subtalk
if that's asking too much, then at least be kinder,
gentler, and very understanding to me. that's
really the only person i am concerned with.
seriously though--- i hope we all have a sweet day
today and everyday with all the people who come into
our lives, both on and off this message board.
remember there's a real world out there, not that i
would know anything about that...
walk with peace in your heart, and a twinkle in your
eye, and watch out for some skinny guy on a bicycle
paul
I'll second that. And make sure you ride the West Side IRT--today's the day they use their heart-shaped rollsigns.
>>>>today's the day they use their heart-shaped
rollsigns. <<<
Really?
I'll third that greeting!!!!
Happy Valentines Day-and a word of advice:If anyone asks you to go to a garage in Chicago offering cheap whiskey,
DON'T GO!!!
As #4 Sea Beach Fred, I'll fourth the motion to all of your wives and girlfriends and other loved ones. Especially, I want to send on a happy Valentine to BX55. I think she is still mad at me for our embroglio a few months back.
Let me add my two cents' worth and send along a Rocky Mountain Valentine greeting to all, including significant others.
I would also like to extend an olive branch to anyone who may have felt alienated or offended by any of my posts in the past.
I hope everyone has someone they love more than subways.
Love ya, Maya :)
Happy Valentine's Day to all. May your wives and girlfriends ride the subways with you forever!
Chuck Greene
Have fun during the pm rush hour when people walk into the crowded subway trains with heart-shaped latex and mylar balloons, a box of chocolates and flowers. Then when someone bumps into them accidentally, the condoms will fall out of his bag onto the floor.
LOL :) -Nick
I took the LIRR yesterday and one of the new double deckers was parked between Jamacia and Hillside had one car covered in a giant work of gafity that reached the windows on the second level...
[I took the LIRR yesterday and one of the new double deckers was parked between Jamacia and Hillside had one car covered in a giant work of [graffiti] that reached the windows on the second level...]
That wasn't one of the new double-deckers. What you saw was the "Bitanic," the double-decker train introduced on a test basis in the early 1990's and used mostly on the Port Jefferson line. It was quite unreliable, hence the nickname, and has been withdrawn from use now that the new double-deckers have arrived.
In the City section of the New York Times yesterday there was a photo of an E train parked at a station. The caption read (10 AM - G train at Bergen St.) Could this have been a G train with one mistaken label or was it an E train on the G line? Or maybe it wasn't Bergen St. at all. Anyone know?
I saw it too my guess was someone said E but the person heard G...
and you don't see G's running R 32 too often either
My little sister can't stand my subway thing, but when she looked at the pic, she knew it was wrong immediately.
-Hank
Want to get pics of RedBirds before they disappear? Well, on Tuesday, March 7, I'm planning to take a Adieu to RedBird and Fishbowl Day. Stops will include Willets Pt, E180St, Westchester and Pelham Bay. Also there will be an opportunity to ride a NYBS Fishbowl before they're replaced. Meeting spot will be 61St Woodside Sta by LIRR Ticket office at 11am. We will leave there by 1130 if you run a little late. If for some reason I'm unable to attend this FieldTrip, I will post here on Sun March 5 to let you all know in advance or my partner Trevor Logan may recoordinate it. If you are interested in saying Adieu to RedBirds and Fishbowls, email me at MCIMAN2000@AOL.COM. Hope to see you all there.
Also, if you are unable to attend on Tuesday, March 7, have no fear! Another FieldTrip will be planned for Saturday, March 18. Details on that trip will come either at the end of this week or early next week. Stay Tuned!
R36Gary
TransiTalk Platinum 2000
Gary,
Aren't you being a bit premature? The Redbirds on the Flushing line are not being replaced in the current order of cars (R142, 142A) and from what I heard about the R142 test on the Flushing line, I don't think the Redbirds on the mainline are going to disappear that fast.
True, but the same fate doesn't hold for R26-R28-R29 and certain R33.
That'll be 1 purpose of the day: to get pics of R26-R28-R29 and some R33 cars and also to ride a FishBowl from NYBS. I knoe the cars on the 7 will be here for at least a year- maybe 2.
R36Gary
This "Field Trip" reminds me of the two that many of us did to the Newark City Subway last June ... the PCCs aren't gone yet, but we had fun riding them as a group when they were still under poles vs. paddles.
This trip will include riding Red Birds of many types and on many lines. Plus ... "also to ride a FishBowl from NYBS".
Sounds like a fun time, and that's my kind of trip !
Mr t__:^)
In that case, a ride on the 7 from end to end will definitely be on my agenda next fall. It may be my last chance to say, "hello, Redbirds."
I suggest you time it a rush hour so you can get a Local one way and a Express the other, AND be sure to hang on to something when riding the latter :-)
Mr t
Today's edition of Salon (www.salon.com) has an article about the subway's newest role - as a singles' meeting spot. Bedford Avenue on the L is supposedly Ground Zero in this respect. And check out the incident that happened on the 3 train back in the 1980's :-)
I guess my idea of using all those excessive IND mezzanines for bars and discos -- to give the young people a place to go where they won't bother the neighborhood -- isn't so far-fetched after all. That huge unused station on the G (S. 4th St) would be perfect -- 660 feet long by 100 feet wide.
[I guess my idea of using all those excessive IND mezzanines for bars and discos -- to give the young people a place to go where they won't bother the neighborhood -- isn't so far-fetched after all. That huge unused station on the G (S. 4th St) would be perfect -- 660 feet long by 100 feet wide.]
Now that you mention it, S. 4th isn't all that far from Bedford Avenue, which is the main rendezvous spot for singles. And it's a shame that so much space has been going to waste ...
Seriously, what is it about Bedford Avenue or its neighborhood that makes it so popular with singles?
>>>Seriously, what is it about Bedford Avenue or its neighborhood that makes it so popular with singles?<<<
Bedford Avenue is Ground 0 for the hip-hop, happening youth spilling over from the East Village.
www.forgotten-ny.com
You can have a fight with a lover at the South Ferry
station, hop a train uptown, go one or two stops,
realize you were wrong, hop a train downtown and
watch as the train literally "brings you back around
the loop" to your love.
S. 4th St. isn't a full-length station. It was built into the ceiling of the Broadway station and is only as long as the the B'wy station itself is wide. From what I hear, it's still pretty big.
Good place for a football game(touch) Or stickball
Here's the link Click Here!
Saturday I was amoung a large group who attended this second swap meet. Even Transit Transit's Andy O'Rouke was there behind instead of in front of the camera. They also have a new newsperson, she is much cuter then Andy.
A lot more folks were doing it for money, but this writer was able to get an original set of blues, a James Rizza stylized subway, and a Mark Messier for no money, just some of my cards. BTW all 6 of these are from 1994. The only minor sour note was my loss of a tempory Sr/Disabled, red, at the end (It was being passed around while a group was of us was talking about it vs. a school red ... it didn't come back). Didn't see as many SubTalk friends as in October, but one remembered his promise, the 3rd 1997 Yankee card is now in a place of honor in my collection. Thanks to him I now only need a couple of "gold's" to complete the set.
I also had a pleasent ride on the LIRR (still have my return ticket, as the conductor hid in his booth ... MSG had just let out & the train was packed), AND rode a couple of Red Birds, #3 & #6.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
Do you know if those box sets of Metros of the World Metrocard holders are going to appreciate in value?
-Dave
Dave,
Don't hold your breath. I was at the Transit Museum last week and they had at least a dozen boxes on display (with more in a storeroom I am sure). I know the TM store in GCT has a bunch.
Apparently the uniqueness of the set did not go over as much as anyone thought.
Eye don't know if I'm a typical MC collector, but I don't have too much interest in them. What I've done is take them in trade for folks who don't have cards to swap, so someday I may have them all ;-)
One that is very nice is Bus 2969 with Ralph & Alice.
I'm glad I have a almost complete set before it gets to be a "for money" thing, because then it won't be as much FUN.
Mr t__:^)
Well I for one have to admit that when it comes to collecting subway/rail related books, and assorted souveniors, if it doesn't involve NY, Boston, Philly or Chicago, it just doesn't interest me. I could care less about collecting a MetroCard holder depicting a scene from Budapest, or Hong Kong. (Of course it would probably make a difference if I had actually visited the places that are featured on the MC holders, I don't know).
The TA Museum could have done a great thing by offering a separate NYC subways set of MC holders showing various scenes around the system. I can't understand why they didn't do a set like that.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug,
The answer is simple. Because it makes sense. When has the MTA ever done anything that makes sense?
I mean look at their attempt to celebrate the uniqueness of the Subway system (Subway Cool MetroCards). Did they have picture of subway cars? Nooooo!!! They had stations, wheels, spare parts, energy etc.
What is so unique about that. The rolling stock is probably the most unique part of the system (beacuse there are so many diffrernt types).
Always remember that the marketing decisions for the MetroCards and now the Musuem are made by individuals who rarely ride the subway and if they do it is because their cars broke down.
Saturday was a great day. I was able to finally acquire the Fidel Castro, Mandela and Kofi Annan ABCNews.com MCs with the help of Thurston (our TransitTransit spokesperson) and another one of the dealers who's day job is manning one of the NYCT MetroCard buses (I think it was Ron).
After the show Thurston and I went uptown for lunch at one of the pricey eateries (I think one beer was $10 there). We were certainly the only patrons in the place to arrive by mass transit and not chauffeured limo. ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Toward the end of January 2,900 Wal-Mart & Sam's Club's stores introduced this new dollar coin. Today my company saw the first one used to pay a fare over this weekend. There was also a 1999 version of the Susan B. Anthony dollar coin.
Mr t__:^)
The Susan B. Anthony dollar hasn't been minted since 1981, although vending machines give them as change.
They justy minted a new batch because so many machines do use them for change there has been a shortage of them
I stand corrected. There was a post some time ago which stated that many of the SBA dollars which had been languishing in Federal Reserve vaults were melted down because it was thought they wouldn't be needed. Oops!
And you're right about that - they were. But mandates to use them in transit and post office vending machines increased the "demand" so that more were needed before the new coin was ready.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They have indeed minted 1999 SBA dollars. I've got a few stashed. I also just got a Y2K penny.
-Hank
Is it complaint? I'll bet all the coin collectors were praying for a year 1900 or a year 19100 error.
I also just got a Y2K penny.
Did it come in a box of Cheerios?
Nope, change at the newsstand.
-Hank
No, no, no. You got it all wrong. Change at Jamaica.
DOH!
-Hank
I just checked with David, and the really good
handles are going fast. Still Available are:
Vinny Voltage
Motorman Luciano
Walter O'Malley
Mike Quill
Mayor John Lindsley
Son of Sam
Daughter of Delilah
West End Local
Chrystie Street Connection
Uptown Express
Brooklyn Queens Local
BRT
Malbone Street Morris
BIE
AWOL
Pelham 123
and
NIAGARA FALLS!!!
Sloooowly he turned, step by step...
OOOOhhhh NOOOOO! Not Niagra Falls!!
Viagra Falls maybe - no wait - with Viagra things wouldn't fall (sorry could not help myself)
A few more
Mr. R40M man
Rockaway Ralph
Trixie Triplex (for the few female railfans out there)
BMT woman (cuz Doug needs a girlfriend)
David Pirrman (oh wait, that's been taken)
Ralph Rockaway sounds better, oops isn't that a old bus/trolley line in the 40s
Triplex Trixie sounds cool as well. Now if we could come up with a handle that goes well with Alice. Or Norton... Rockaway Ralph makes me think of Ralph Kramden. Sorry if this is drifting towards a Honeymooners theme.
I haven't seen anyone use a Culver handle. Nor has there been a Mr. R-32 or Mr. R-38.
Norton? Easy! Norton's Point Trolley.
That'll work! All we need now is an Alice handle. I don't suppose A Train Alice would cut the mustard, would it?
And to think a few months ago you didn't know html, now you're a master!!!
I know HTML too !!!
You should check out 94948 For some REAL HTML. Although if I knew Javascript, I'd be able to stop certain jokers like 152.163.197.176 from posting without leaving their e-mail.
If you made any posts without disconnecting from your internet connection before after finishing my test (and getting only ONE right BTW), I WILL catch you, AOL user!
See what I mean? I register a name and then someone posts a bunch of better ones. I just can't win.
-Joisey Mike seriously considering BIE
::Register your Handle::
Where is the Registrar's Office?
Obtain a Password & Read the Rules
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why when waiting for the LIRR you can hear the track harmonics but you never really hear them from the subway tracks..
Some trivia on the French Connection Movie, in response to the recent thread:
The original chase scene was to have the motorman get shot and have the train smash into its leader. Advice from the TA (re: Dead Man's Handle) changed the scene to the motorman having a heart attack and slumping over the controller.
The motorman in the movie was the actual motorman on the train (the TA refused to let an actor operate a train). Tragically he actually died on the job of a heart attack (in a crew room) several years later.
The conductor was also the actual conductor, and the scene where he gets shot was done in one take. The actor who was to play the conductor didn't show up that day. The studio liked his acting so much they took him back to Hollywood but an acting career never panned out for him. He was a recently-returned Vietnam Vet in excellent shame, so taking a fall was no problem for him.
The vehicle accident beneath the el structure was an actual unplanned accident. It looked so realistic they left the scene in!
Some of the chase scene was filmed in Ridgewood, along the M line, where streets parallel the "alley el".
Rumor had it that Gene Hackman was quite a nice fellow to work with!
CONRAD MISEK
Oh, wasn’t there a thing in some other thread relating to The French Connection about the chase taking place along the West End line and R-42’s running with an “N” sign on the front?
The chace started at the Bay 50th St, and ended at 62nd St
I was a student at John Dewey High School when they were filming this sequence. I remember them having blocked off a section of the street and sidewalk just north of the school to film the bit where a car goes up on the sidewalk.
Great movie, especially for a subway buff. Read elsewhere on this thread that the conductor and the motorman were real. I always thought that the conductor looked and acted like a real 70's NYCTA conductor. That movie was full of real (non-actor) people. Gave it a realistic gritty look. Real actors are just too pretty to portray New Yorkers.
"You ever pick your feet in Poughkeepsie?"
Alan Glick
Alan, perhaps you could enlighten me. What is the significance of "You ever pick your feet in Poughkeepsie?" this was also in FK2.
Simon
Swindon UK
Hackman used that question to intimidate suspects. I think that it's just a question that has no answer so the suspect has no idea as to what the correct way to respond would be, especially when Hackman asks it in a threatening way. Poughkeepsie is a town in upstate New York (I think).
Then again, maybe there is some significance to the phrase that I don't get either. If so, maybe someone out there can enlighten us both.
Alan ("You ever suck your toes in Swindon?") Glick
Based on the way that Popeye first posed the question to that doper in the trashy lot, it may have been an eccentric Doyle allusion to drug use.
Yes, Poughkeepsie is a small city on the east bank of the Hudson about halfway between New York and Albany. Over the years, its various claims to fame have been as the home of the Poughkeepsie RR bridge, Vassar College, DeLaval Separator Co., Smith Bros. Cough Drops, Marist College, and what was formerly the largest IBM installation prior to the massive downsizing of the early 1990s. It is also the northernmost stop on Metro North's Hudson Division.
But its greatest claim to fame is as the birthplace of ... Anon_e_mouse!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Speaking of Poughkeepsie, see this for an announced upgrade to the Metro-North/Amtrak station.
Thanks for the update! I was heavily involved in the volunteer effort back in 1973-74 that saved the station from demolition, documenting the historic station architecture, doing quite a bit of research on the history of the building, and testifying before the Dutchess County commissioners and two committees of the State Legislature. Somewhere in the NYS Archives there are about 1500 photographs (mostly b&w) and 5000 feet of Super 8 movie film that I shot of the station during that period. I hated to see it high-platformed the last time I was there, though - just doesn't seem quite right. I know, ADA and all, and being somewhat unsteady on my feet any more I should appreciate it, but I'd rather have had that part of it left undone. I'm glad to see that they're going to restore the remaining walkway to Main Street; as the article said, it has a spectacular view. Now if they could only demolish the Arterial Highway (Route 9) overhead so the station could be seen!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whoever designed the Route 9 - Mid-Hudson Bridge interchange must have been a co-op at an Engineering firm. It's terrible!
The state's answer" reduce the speed limit from 55 to 45mph on route 9 through that interchange. Like THAT'S gonna solve all the problems!!
--Mark
Unless you live in Poughkeepsie, the speed restriction is the least of your problems. The stop and go traffic south of Poughkeepsie is second only to Hempstead Turnpike in my experience. You can whizz past Poughkeepsie on a highway, but there is no highway to Poughkeepsie in any direction. Perhaps they should just turn Route 9 back into a regular street.
Someone told me there are 40 traffic lights on the ten-mile stretch between Rt. 9 between Poughkeepsie and Fishkill.
As for the interchange between the Mid-Hudson Bridge approach and Rt. 9, don't forget when it was built--mid 1930s I believe. To rebuild it to current standards would require $umpteen million. It would probably require tearing down some homes to the east and building over the Hudson Line tracks to the west.
[Someone told me there are 40 traffic lights on the ten-mile stretch between Rt. 9 between Poughkeepsie and Fishkill.]
I've never counted them, but that sounds about right. And let's not forget the fact that few if any of them seem to be timed.
I used to commute between Suffern & Fishkill. It was a 45 mile drive that took about 50 minutes.
When I would travel between Fishkill & Poughkeepsie to visit my mother-in-law, it would take me 35 minutes to make the 10 mile drive!
The only time I've ever made good time on Route 9 is after 11pm. At that time the traffic lights seem "smart" and detect whether there's a car at an intersection waiting to cross and adjust the lights accordingly. Otherwise Route 9 would just have the green.
Route 9 was recently widened between the arterial in Poughkeepsie and Wasppingers - 3 lanes in each direction with a median, with the exception of Rt 9 South in a short stretch of Wappingers, where it's only 2 lanes wide. It was also widened to 3 (and in some cases 4) lanes between I-84 and Route 52 in Fishkill.
--Mark
(Poughkeepsie Flyover built in 1930s).
I guess the City Of was the only congested area at the time, so that's why it is highway there and arterial to the south.
This brings up a point some of us have talked about at City Planning, but like any discussion of transportation investments, the only point is to pass the time. In older cities where highways are scarce, traffic (including bus traffic) moves on arterials with signal priority. In Brooklyn, this works -- until two arterials have to cross each other. Given that turn lanes are not present, the result is gridlock. This is one reason that bus service is so poor, since most of the arterials and the subway run toward Manhattan, and you need to take a bus to get crosstown.
It seems that briefly, before they started building highways, people started building underpasses in these situations. For example, there is the East New York Avenue underpass at Atlantic. But then the highway building era started, and arterial improvments stopped.
There was a rumour about recreating the Church Avenue underpass under Ocean Parkway a while ago. The problem is money -- I've heard a round figure of $100 million just to get a two lane tunnel across one street. If it was cheaper, maybe the city could do this sort of thing.
Staten Island had something similar going on that was on the hot sheets. The Richmond Avenue Tunnel through Richmondtown.
With few exceptions, New York City was negligent in planning non-artierial grade separations.As you mentioned, East New York Avenue was tunneled under Atlantic Avenue; also the express lanes of Queens Boulevard were tunneled under Woodhaven Boulevard and Eliot Avenue. I don't know if this was done for the IND construction in the thirties or the LIE construction in the fifties.
Of course, the Grand Concourse has underpasses with most of the major streets in intersects. Again, I don't know if this was in the original design of the Concourse which may or may not have been built with the subway in mind; or if the underpasses were added in the 1930s to provide egress to the subway. The high ridge on which the Concourse runs may have been a factor in this as well.
Washington DC has express tunnels under many of its complex rotary intersections. Whether this has improved traffic flow or not is unknown to me.
New Jersey's older roads are a real puzzle. Routes 1, 22, 46 have grade intersections, signals and interchanges. Routes 3, 4 and 208 are free of intersections, but have driveways emptying onto freeway-like conditions.
The big transit connection for this issue is connecting bus service. Even in areas with frequent buses, a bus to subway trip is terrible, because the buses are so slow. That is particularly true for bus trips across the general direction of the city's transport system -- toward Manhattan.
Take the Q33 connection from the subway to LaGuardia, for example. In addition to the million stops, the amount of time you spend sitting at the Northern Blvd stoplight is enough to drive you batty.
If the Manhattan Bridge were lost for a period (as is planned), the TA could ramp up service on the Culver Line and people could take buses across to it. Those coming from the east, however, could have to cross Flatbush Ave, Ocean Ave, Coney Island Ave, and Ocean Parkway, each with signal priority over the cross streets. A walk would be quicker.
It is possible to equip buses with special transmitters that change upcoming traffic lights. When a transmitter-equipped bus approaches a red light, the driver can send a signal changing the light to green. While the technology exists, I am not sure how well it would work in practice (or even if it's been tried anywhere). Certainly, there could be a risk of creating unacceptable tie-ups on the major roads.
some cities have put it on their fire trucks..
Doesn't Union Turnpike pass under Queens Boulevard? The Interboro^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HJackie Robinson Parkway shares the tight underpass, as does (ObSubTalk) a subway entrance.
As for New Jersey, a few of the participants on misc.transport.roads have termed roads like NJ 4 and NJ 17 Jersey freeways.
Union Turnpike is blocked by the Queens Boulevard service road malls. Only Interborough Parkway passes below.
Isn't Union Tnpk the lanes on the outside of the Jackie Robinson, where the station is?
Yes. The outer and inner lanes are seperated, and split after going beneath the Queens Blvd. underpass.
Union Turnpike serves as the service roads for the Jackie Robinson there, but only the Jackie Robinson goes down near the station and under Queens Boulevard.
Sounds like we have a real debate here. Will the first person to actually view the underpass (and not from the highway (please write in).
While we are at it, what was the idea of the station entrance off the Interboro anyway? And why are there stations labeled Brooklyn Bridge on both sides, since most people going over the bridge are in a car not on foot?
I've viewed the underpass. Union Turnpike doesn't go down with the Interborough.
I live two blocks from the Union Turnpike station and use it daily, so I feel qualified to address this question.
Union Turnpike acts as the service road for the J.R.Pkwy between the Kew Gardens Interchange and a point in Forest Park, between Park Lane and Metropolitan Avenue. It divides into two "forks" between Austin Street and a point 300-400 feet east of Queens Blvd; in each direction, the two-lane left (lower) fork hugs the parkway and is continuous under Queens Blvd, while the right (upper) fork intersects (and is interrupted by) Queens Blvd.
Along the south lower fork, the parkway-level entrance to the station's 24-hour fare control area is still open, and is accessed from the street by a stair (with green globe) where the upper fork meets the Queens Blvd/Kew Gardens Road split, adjacent to a bus stop for the Q37. There is a cut-out directly in front of the downstairs station entrance, suggesting that buses might have stopped here at one time. However, the cut-out currently cannot be used, as there is now a W-barrier and a fence separating people from high-speed vehicles.
Along the north lower fork, the parkway-level station entrance has been abandoned, and there is no street access to it. However, it, too, clearly has a cut-out in front of the former entrance, and may have been served by buses at one point.
I would oppose restoring bus service to these entrances. Having buses pull out from high-speed traffic, then return to it, would create a first-rate safety hazard.
Thanks, I couldn't have explained it better. I grew up in that area. When those cut-outs were in service, only cars and cabs would use that to let off passengers. I don't ever recall it being used for bus service. Those cut-outs were put out of service when the Interboro was rebuilt during the early 1980's.
>>And why are there stations labeled Brooklyn Bridge on both sides,
since most people going over the bridge are in a car not on foot?
Well, the bridge is a big tourist draw these days; and when the IRT station was built it was one of only two crossings to Long Island (the other being the Willy B, 1903), so an even more notable landmark then. Calling the station "Brooklyn Bridge" would have made it pretty clear that this was where you changed for the BRT bridge lines.
I've always assumed High St. carries the "Brooklyn Bridge" moniker because nobody knew where High St. was--and now that the street's been demapped it's looking like a pretty good idea. Clark St. IRT, named for an equally obscure byway of old Brooklyn, carries "Brooklyn Heights" in its tile placard.
The one that does baffle me is "Canal Street - Holland Tunnel." Was there ever a New Jersey bus terminal there?
(Canal Street Holland Tunnel)
I knew there was another example, though I couldn't think of it. Kind of makes you think you could get out and walk through the tunnel.
Since the Holland Tunnel was the first crossing from Manhattan to New Jersey, I assume that when it opened, there were some busses running across it. Then I guess when the PABT opened in a more central part of Manhattan, connecting to the Lincoln, the Holland Tunnel busses, with their lack of terminal must have fallen into disuse and eventually disappeared.
There is a closed entrence o the Union TPk station in the underpass,
Also Woodhaven Blvd has over passes over Union Tpk and Atlantic Ave
Is it ONLY 10 miles between Po-town and I-84? I BELIEVE it's more like 15 or so*...BTW I also believe that Poughkeepsie has some sort of distinction of being one of the largest metro areas NOT directly served by some sort of Interstate highway,including all kind of 3-digit spurs (which is really,really needed say from the the New Paltz Thruway exit or Exit 12 on 84..... Also, the last few years the NYS DOT put those #*&%$ computer-controlled 'on demand' traffic signals in on RT 9, meaning at 3 am you can go right thru, but when theres any kind of traffic, its just as bad as random signals..(They did this recently in Middletown too, on the main drag coming in town...Once you learn the system and know enough to look at the crossroads ahead, you can go all the way thru sometimes without totally stopping!)
*maybe it only SEEMS that long!
It was 12 miles from the Mid-Hudson Bridge to our apartment in Wappingers Falls years ago (right off route 9); I think it was 17 or 18 to I-84. But you all are right, there were far too many traffic lights on that stretch back then (in the '70s) and I'm sure there are more now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[BTW I also believe that Poughkeepsie has some sort of distinction of being one of the largest metro areas NOT directly served by some sort of Interstate highway,including all kind of 3-digit spurs]
Fresno, California has the dubious honor of being the largest.
At least Fresno has Cal99, which is a rough equivilent to NY 17 [The Quickway], a states attempt to build an Interstate highway where none was planned originally....[of course, NOW all the politicos want- and are getting 17 changed to I86.....of course theyll have spend MILLIONS to make up to "Interstate standards" whatever the hell that means...] Even though the Taconic is fairly close, the truck traffic has no choice but either dragging all the way up 9, or doing the NY299 death dance....
Interstate standards mean no traffic lights. Good standards if you ask me.
State Highway 17 has only one traffic light between the Thruway and Binghamton, just west of Liberty. Upgrading the area around Elmira will be the main work the state will have to do.
The Taconic has been fixed up a lot since Bob Moses first built it (anyone remember Hawthorne Circle?), but it would need a lot more work to reach Interstate standard.
(Anyone remember the Hawthorne Circle)
Growing up in Yonkers, whenever we had to visit relatives who had moved "Up da line," family members would talk about the Hawthorne Circle -- with fear -- for a week before, and a week after.
I love the Taconic, esp. the section in Columbia County around evening twilight on a summer day. The section in Putnam is a little scary, though.
(Rail connection) Know people who bought a second home up there, and live in an apartment down here. They want to extend the Harlem line, and that would be great for second homeowners. Columbia County wants it extended, but doesn't want to join the Metropolitan Transportation District and pay the taxes for it.
Our family had the same fear passing through it on the way to Chappaqua to my uncle's house, especially when we would go there for the family Christmas gathering.
...and FYI, their house was on the other side of the village from Hillary.
[(Rail connection) Know people who bought a second home up there, and live in an apartment down here. They want to extend the Harlem line, and that would be great for second homeowners. Columbia County wants it extended, but doesn't want to join the Metropolitan Transportation District and pay the taxes for it.]
Columbia County's getting a pretty good deal. Metro North is extending the Harlem line to Waasaic, which is about 12 to 15 miles from the county line. It'll be close enough to be convenient for Columbia County residents (Dover Plains probably already is), but there'll be no MTA taxation.
(Dutchess Stations can serve Columbia)
On the other side of the river, however, things get sticky. The City of Hudson has had a modest revival as a home base for the Manhattan telecommuter crowd. Since Columbia is outside the district, MetroNorth proposed extending Hudson Line service to Rhinecliff.
But Rhinebeck residents figured out that would leave their town as a parking garage for those further north, and have opposed the rail extension. Snobism also played a roll -- really affluent people are satisfied with Amtrak, it seems. Moreover, there is no yard at Rhinecliff to give MN trains a place to turn around.
An extension to Hudson would make everybody happy except, again, that Columbia County does not want to pay the taxes.
Columbia County Metro-North service to Manhattan. I have one question...WHY??!!! It is way too far from Manhattan. If commuter rail service is ever going to run in Columbia County, it should be to Albany. While we're at it, why do we have commuter rail to Dutchess County? That's also too far from Manhattan. Who included Dutchess County in the commuter district? What's next, Metro-North to Albany? Why would anybody want to commute so far to work from where they live? It just doesn't make sense.
[Columbia County Metro-North service to Manhattan. I have one question...WHY??!!! It is way too far from Manhattan. If commuter rail service is ever going to run in Columbia County, it should be to
Albany. While we're at it, why do we have commuter rail to Dutchess County? That's also too far from Manhattan. Who included Dutchess County in the commuter district? What's next, Metro-North to Albany? Why would anybody want to commute so far to work from where they
live? It just doesn't make sense.]
Dutchess County definitely is within the commuter district. Metro North's Harlem and Hudson lines have decent ridership from such Dutchess County locations as Poughkeepsie and Dover Plains. In fact, the Harlem line is being extended several miles north from its current terminus in Dover Plains to Waasaic. It's also entirely possible that many of the people who take the Harlem line from the busy Putnam County station of Brewster North drive there from Dutchess County locations, to take advantage of the more frequent electric service at Brewster North.
I would presume that there are many reasons why people are willing to commute long distances from Dutchess County. Among other things, house prices are cheaper the farther north one gets from the city, and many people probably like the slower-paced lifestyle available in the area.
I don't have access to ridership figures, but I suspect that if you were to look at them for the period 1993-1997 you would see a significant increase in commutation to New York. Dutchess and Ulster counties were very hard-hit by the IBM layoffs that began in early 1993; the closing of the Kingston plant, the 70% workforce reduction in Poughkeepsie in East Fishkill, and the downsizing of the corporation's other activities in Westchester and Putnam counties as well. DeLaval, another large Poughkeepsie employer, also departed the scene about the same time. Local unemployment soared; housing values plummeted. Young married couples, many with Long Island backgrounds, who worked in New York saw Poughkeepsie and the surrounding area as an excellent value. The extended commute was already part of their experience, so it mattered little to them. Now, housing prices have stabilized and in some areas have risen to their pre-IBM-layoff levels. The schools are bursting again with young children and the commuter trains are packed to the vestibules with parents off to work - those who aren't telecommuting, anyway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The thing is, IT is going to allow more and more people linked to Manhattan to work part of the time at home. There are a lot of freelancers out there, esp. in industries concentrated in Manhattan. The ride from Columbia County is a lot more tolerable twice a week.
Consider also that only 30 percent of the housing units in NYC have three or more bedrooms, compared with 60 percent in the U.S. Lots of people who like living in the city cannot afford a family-sized unit. Good schools are also scarce. For many of those with job flexibility, a split life with a second home up north and a small apartment in NYC makes financial and quality of life sense. If I had not the good fortune to buy a house in 1994, and was looking at $500,000 instead of $200,000, I'd consider it myself. For much less than that, one could pick up a 2 BR coop in a building near, but outside of, Manhattan, and a house in northern Dutchess or Columbia.
[Young married couples, many with Long Island backgrounds, who worked in New York saw Poughkeepsie and the surrounding area as an excellent value. The extended commute was already part of their experience, so it mattered little to them.]
Indeed, commuting times from Dutchess County aren't much if any longer than those from central or eastern Suffolk County. And Metro North is more reliable and pleasant than the LIRR.
Interstate standards is a lot more than no lights. It means limited access, with lane widths and shoulder spaces that conform to certain standards; certain types of guardrail construction; drainage standards; location of support pillars for bridges that cross the highway; and a lot of other criteria. Many highways that currently carry Interstate designation could not get that designation today due to changing standards; they retain it simply because they have it. Parts of the Pennsylvania Turnpike come to mind; the section closest to New Jersey, for instance, doesn't conform to either the shoulder space or drainage standards, and may not even conform to lane width, by six inches or so. But it already has the I-76 designation so it gets to keep it. Bringing an existing highway up to Interstate standards, even if it's close, would probably be more money than it would be worth.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The section between the junction with the Schuylkill Expressway (Sure kill expressway) and the turnpike is I-276. The rest of the highway is I-76 and between Breezewood and New Stanton, it's both I-70 and I-76. If that interchange between I-95 and the PATP gets built, then it will be I-95 across the Delaware and the NJTP.
[Interstate standards is a lot more than no lights. It means limited access, with lane widths and shoulder spaces that conform to
certain standards; certain types of guardrail construction; drainage standards; location of support pillars for bridges that cross the highway; and a lot of other criteria. Many highways that currently carry Interstate designation could not get that designation today due to changing standards; they retain it simply because they have it.]
Some non-conforming highways have gotten Interstate designations thanks to pressure by local politicians. I-180 in Cheyenne, Wyoming is the most egregious example, as it's nothing more than an ordinary city street with traffic lights and at-grade intersections. City officials apparently thought that having a 3di would enhance Cheyenne's image, and were able to persuade the feds. I-381 in the city of Bristol, which straddles the Virginia/Tennessee line, is nothing more than a long exit ramp. Bristol officials were able to get it designated as an Interstate so their city would be listed as having direct Interstate access.
(Designation without standards possible.)
And in fact, I've been told that the feds have agreed to make certain allowances for the proposed I-86. Specifically, the cost of eliminating steep grades -- especially where the road crosses the Shawgunk Ridge near Wurtsboro -- would be monumental.
Eliminate the lights, however, and Route 17 is an interstate in all but name. The big opposition comes from businesses -- gas stations, diners -- located on the highway that would be off the highway if the road was rerouted. I was told by an upstate DOT official that the state has owned the ROW for a reroute since the 1960s.
The problem from about Bloomingburgh (exit 113) east is that there are exits spaced fairly close together for an Interstate in several places, so of course the businesses and towns along there are fairly PO'd about everything. Also I was driving upstate last Thanksgiving, and the whole section of 17 just east of Binghamton (Windsor, East Branch, etc ) is undergoing a major reconstruction to eliminate all those intersections that are/were there....
Outside of the occassional turning car if you drive through late in the afternoon when people are headed home from work, the area east of Binghamton isn't bad for through traffic. The big annoyance is still the traffic light at Exit 98 (Livingston Manor?) which I beleive had some kind of sensor designed to catch me and hold me there for five minutes every time I drive through.
Also, the far west section of 17 near the PA state line is still just two lanes, though the grade crossings are gone and the overpasses have been built to handle up to six lanes of traffic. Looks weird, but at least they were thinking ahead.
Exit (ha-ha) 98 is the wonderful village of Parksville; it IS amazing how you can hit that red light though (ask any ShortLine bus driver..).......also, try driving 17 between the Thruway and say Middletown between 4 & 7 pm or any Sunday in either direction....There still are a few exits there that were designed when Truman was President [Chester is a NOTORIOUS example, as is the east on/off ramp at 122].
The far west section of NY/PA 17 was a so-called Super-2 but the four-lane upgrade was completed in late 1997. As of December 3, 1999, all of NY 17 west of the Chemung-Steuben line in East Corning (between exits 48 and 49) and PA 17 (that's the short extension of NY 17 west from the NY-PA line to I-90 near Erie, not to be confused with the other PA 17 in central Pennsylvania or the short section of NYSDOT-maintained NY 17 which dips into Pennsylvania near Sayre) is I-86. (It is still also signed as PA/NY 17.)
The major remaining deficiencies on NY 17 are, from east to west:
Substandard ramps in Orange and Sullivan Counties (and possibly elsewhere).
The traffic light at "exit" 98 (Parksville-Cooley) and the businesses along the highway just west of that point.
At-grade intersections and abutting businesses for about five miles near Hancock (Delaware County).
At-grade intersections and abutting businesses and houses in West Windsor (Broome County, just west of Binghamton). Until recently, there were houses on both sides of the highway, each with its own driveway, each driveway with its own break in the median barrier to allow for left turns. This was probably the most dangerous section of the highway due to the unpredictability of traffic. (I even once saw a pedestrian strolling across the highway -- although that wouldn't be strange at all in a city.) Fortunately, the DOT has torn down the houses on the south side of the highway and is in the process of building a new eastbound roadway where they stood. Once this is completed, the current eastbound roadway will become the westbound roadway and the current westbound roadway will become a service road for the remaining houses. Exit 77 (West Windsor) is open, replacing the former Place Road/North Road at-grade intersection; exit 78 is being converted to a full diamond. According to http://punch.dot.state.ny.us/reg/r9/press9.html#urbanbr1, this project is scheduled for completion in December 2001.
Kamikaze Curve in Binghamton. Kamikaze Curve is on NY 17 just west of the junction with I-81; the highway is sandwiched between a river and a mountain and is stuck with a 50-mph curve. It's not clear if this will (or can) be repaired.
Lowman Crossover, just east of Elmira.
Traffic signals (at three intersections, I think) in Horseheads, just west of Elmira. The speed limit here is 40 mph; due to a recent rash of accidents, it is being strictly enforced, so don't speed through the area.
Unsigned "exit" 50, Kahler Road. This is an at-grade intersection but there is no break in the median.
I seem to be the only one who's noticed this, but between exit 49 and Kahler Road is another at-grade intersection, on the eastbound side of the highway only. Again, no median break.
Come on over to misc.transport.road for some lively discussion about NY 17. You may also be interested in my collection of photographs. (All of the ones I have up predate I-86 -- I do have a collection of photographs from late December but they haven't been posted yet.)
It will be interesting to see what level of upgrade they do to the ramps. There was a two-mile section of I-295 from South of Camden to the U.S. 130 split in New Jersey that was upgraded about 12 years ago, but some of the exits there still veer off at a little bit more of an angle than highway engineers of today prefer. That was done because much of the surrounding area was already built up and I assume the DOT gave them a variance.
Highway 17 has to conform to the topography by following the (in some cases very tight) river valleys in the Catskills and Southern Tier (explaining the detour into Pennsylvania -- I can't think of any other majhor highway in the U.S. that does that) so they may allow a bit of deviation from the standard 45-degree on/off ramps that are preferred nowadays.
Kamikaze Curve may not change that much either due to the location, but 50 mph sections of interstate highways are not that uncommon in tightly-curved sections going through the western mountains -- Interstate 8 east Yuma is so tight the east and westbound lanes cross over each other and take completely differnt paths for a five mile stretch, and it does the same thing east of San Diego.
I-684 crosses briefly into Connecticut. Both I-684 and NY 17 are maintained in their out-of-state sections by NYSDOT.
Old NY 17 runs just north of NY 17 through that section, and it is in New York. So US 220, which ends not at NY 17 there but at old NY 17, does enter New York, if just barely, and if it were pared back to the current NY 17, it wouldn't. (US 220 really should continue up NY 34 so it would meet up with its parent, US 20. But New York never really jumped on the US route bandwagon.)
Incidentally, my latest photos, including some of I-86, are up at the web page I cited earlier.
Upstate lost a U.S. Highway designation in the mid-1980s when U.S. 15 to the Rochester area was downgraded to a state highway after I-390 was completed. It's nothing new, the government has been downgrading lots of old U.S. Highways over the past 20 years, mainly in the western states, where the old and new roads either share lanes or run so close together to make federal maintenance of both redundant.
Indeed, and NYSDOT is particularly vigilant in keeping US routes out of its state.
Back on the topic of NY 17, it was originally a two-lane highway for most of its length. As various pieces of the current expressway were built, first the Quickway east of Binghamton and then the Southern Tier Expressway, in stages, west of Binghamton, most of the old highway has been bypassed. The old route has multiple identities: NY 417 through much of WNY, NY 352 in the Corning-Elmira region, NY 17C between Waverly and Owego, NY 434 between Owego and Binghamton, County Route 17 in Delaware County, various county routes in Sullivan County, etc. Some segments are signed state routes; some are unsigned ("secret") state routes (if they have the little green signs every tenth mile, they're NYSDOT-maintained even if no touring route number is posted, and the top line on the little signs usually, but not always, gives the official NYSDOT reference number); some aren't maintained by the state at all. One proposal that has been made on misc.transport.road is to unify these bits and pieces of the former NY 17 under the NY 17 name once I-86 is complete from Harriman to Erie and the NY 17 name is no longer needed for the expressway. Given the history and the importance of the mighty NY 17, some feel it would be a loss to abandon the number entirely. OTOH, moving NY 17 to the old alignment might lead to confusion. (To those who promote this proposal, I suggest first waiting until I-86 is complete. If the masses start referring to it as I-86, there probably wouldn't be confusion. If they continue to call it Route 17 even after the 17 markers are removed, confusion might result.)
ObTrain: As part of the upgrade to I-86, the DOT recently posted street names on all of the overpasses in a few counties in WNY. One of the overpasses is a rail overpass, and the DOT dutifully posted 'RR TRACKS' or somesuch on the standard street sign.
They do the overpass labeling in several states, including Ohio.
As for the renaming, I don't think it would be a major problem after a first couple of months. Most drivers nowadays never want to get off the interstates, and within a short time Highway 17 will be considered as much a "local traffic" route as U.S. 11 is, paralelling I-81 from Knoxville to Watertown.
If they wanted to get fancy, like California, they could also give it a "Historical 17" designation, the way they did for U.S. 66 after it was replaced by I-40, I-15 and a host of other freeways around Los Angeles. It's a pretty interesting road to take through the Cahon Pass, though if you happen to be driving through there when the Big One hits (the road follows the San Andreas Fault), I-15 is gonna be on your head in a couple of moments.
Overpass labeling is common but far from universal.
My point about confusion is that currently, the highway is known as Route 17 across the state. If, all of a sudden, overnight, the big highway became I-86 and the Route 17 name went to some dinky little mountain road, people might get confused. (Never mind that Route 17 was the name of that mountain road before the expressway was built!)
there are already signs on the road saying the Future Rte 86
I think there would be less confusion if the current route 17 became I-86.
I can't tell you how many times I got off the Thruway and onto Route 17 in Tuxedo, and ended up on local roads for half an hour, before I finally figured out that Harriman was the place to pick up the actual highway.
I have the same problem with Route 9A, coming north on the Saw Mill or the Taconic and then heading toward the river. You see an exit for route 9A, worry you're going to miss the highway, and end up on local roads.
Route 17 should become I-86, with the state route reverting to the orignial road. And they should give the mostly grade separated part of Route 9A a name -- the Half Moon Highway, or something.
On the other hand, the Long Mountain Parkway isn't. I pulled out of NYC on a summer afternoon once, and tried to use Bear Mountain Bridge over to the Thruway. That road was backed up for miles behind a traffic light near the Thruway.
They must have heard your complaints. The traffic light on U.S. 6 coming down from Bear Mountain and past the Thruway was finally replaced by an overpass and a direct connection onto Highway 17 three years ago, though if you get behind a slow moving vehicle or a puzzled driver, it will still be slow going down the hill.
And a great connection that is. NY 17 to US 6 (Long Mountain Parkway) to the Palisades Interstate Parkway to the George Washington Bridge is the quickest way to Manhattan from the northwest. It's toll-free (until the bridge, at least) and it's quite scenic. I've only hit traffic on US 6 due to construction at the Thruway overpass.
(Quickest way to Manhattan from the Northwest)
Actually, after massive trial and error, we abandoned that route in favor of the Thruway to Route 17 in New Jersey to (depending on traffic, Giants games, Yankee games etc.) Route 4 to the GW, Route 3 to the Lincoln Tunnel, or Tonnele Avenue (the most scenic road in NJ) to the Holland Tunnel.
Just as NJ is expanding its rail network, its roads are also better than in the Vampire State. Thus, it makes sense to get from New York to New York via New Jersey. Just wish they'd extend Route 17 across the swamp to the Holland Tunnel as part of that "Bergen Arches" plan.
For scenic value, I like the Bear Mountain Bridge, but my wife gets carsick on that winding road every time.
I think the route you give may be the shortest in mileage, at least to the GWB, but once lines at the tolls are taken into account, I find the PIP usually wins by a long shot. The PIP has its own toll plaza for the GWB and lines are usually much, much shorter. Besides, I absolutely despise NJ 17. New Jersey may have a denser network of highways but for scenery New York wins out by a long shot.
And the PIP does go through New Jersey, albeit only ten miles thereof. Fortunately there's a Sunoco station on the side of the highway just south of exit 1.
The Bear Mountain Bridge and its approaches (particularly the windy US 6/US 202 on the east) are quite scenic but it easily takes over an hour to get to Manhattan that way vs. half that on the PIP (36 miles from the traffic circle to the GWB). Tolls are lower, though.
What does ANY of this have to do with rail transportation, in New York City or otherwise?
DAvid
Why does it have to?
Many things are tangentally related to rail transportation -- labor relations, finance, interface with roads, ferries, airports, politics, etc. Once the discussion moves through one of these portals, it often keeps going for a while until a discussion is played out. I don't mind if Dave P does not.
Besides, after a few years on this board I think I've discussed just about everything subway related (past, present, future) at least once. In the case of the Manhattan Bridge, more than once. Perhaps the system really is finite. We can either go over the old ground as new folks sign on, discuss additional tangental issues, or pull in info on other rail systems. Done all three.
(Jersey 17 is slower because of the tolls)
1) EZ Pass, changes everything.
2) Since I'm going to Brooklyn, I can take the least congested of three alternatives.
3) I generally only drive on weekends and holidays -- I use the subway during the week (back on topic). Bergen County is great on a Sunday because of the blue laws.
4) Yeah its ugly, but the wife and kids aren't into scenery, the want to get home. And, there's a couple of good diners on the way.
5) I arrive in Jersey empty and fill up. Round trip to the in-laws in Delaware County (NY) leaves the tank empty again just before I get home. The savings on two tanks of cheap Jersey gas pay for the toll.
Actually, going the Bear Mountain Bridge/Parkway route, there's a good diner on U.S. 202 right between where you get off the Bear Mountain Parkway and before you get on the Taconic. But you do miss out on the N.J. gas prices that way.
[I think the route you give may be the shortest in mileage, at least to the GWB, but once lines at the tolls are taken into account, I find the PIP usually wins by a long shot. The PIP has its own toll plaza
for the GWB and lines are usually much, much shorter. Besides, I absolutely despise NJ 17. New Jersey may have a denser network of highways but for scenery New York wins out by a long shot.]
For some reason, the PIP seems to have an inordinate number of accident delays. I worked for six months (9/93 to 3/94) in Englewood Cliffs within sight of the PIP, and it wasn't at all unusual to see traffic at a dead stop. Traffic reports today often seem to have similar tales of woe. I don't know if the accident rate on the PIP is unusually high. What might be the case is that the road's narrowness means that all lanes have to be shut down for emergency response activities, while on other highways and parkways there's enough room to let a lane by.
Huh. Our experiences differ. The only major traffic I've hit on the PIP (other than construction-related delays) was once, in very thick fog, when it wasn't safe to go faster than 20 mph. Otherwise it's always been free-flowing right down to the tolls and often right through them (the past few times I've driven into the city I've had all nine toll booths available for my selection with nobody at any of them (if you're curious, I went with the rightmost E-ZPass lane, third from the left)).
I do listen to traffic reports; if I hear that traffic is heavy on the PIP, I'll shift my path to NJ 17. Of course, that won't work if the delay isn't announced or is only announced once I'm past the Thruway (well, I suppose I could wind down the east side of the Hudson or use US 9W if the situation was really bad).
(Ooh, a beautiful stroke of lightning, just outside my office window. It's convenient having the computer in front of the window. I'm glad I drew the curtain. My unofficial weather forecast for the NYC area is for rain tomorrow night.)
I still take it when going to Poughkeepsie from NC or NJ - GSP to Thruway to Palisades to Bear Mountain, then north on 9D to Nelsonville (just south of Cold Spring), take the short cut through Nelsonville to 299 to route 9 and north. Unless, of course, I want to shoot Metro North, in which case I stay on 9D through Beacon and Wappingers Falls.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm surprised that's faster than I-287 to the NB Thruway to I-84 to US 9, or perhaps even I-287 to the Thruway to NY 299 (in New Paltz) and then across the Mid-Hudson Bridge. (Not that you said it's faster. Your route is unquestionably more scenic, and it avoids the Thruway toll now that the Suffern toll has been eliminated for cars.)
Comparing the New Paltz/Mid-Hudson Bridge routing, the PIP savings is about 10 minutes and 18 miles on an off-peak run. Newburgh is closer in time but still about 10-12 miles longer. And the times haven't changed much over the years - I've been making this run as either a driver or a passenger since the '50s. The Suffern toll never factored in, BTW - the GSP connects with the Thruway just east of the toll plaza, and you actually run south/east toward the Tappan Zee to connect with the PIP. That routing - Tappan Zee to route 9 and north - was actually a better alternate than New Paltz in the years before the Beacon-Newburgh bridge was built, and (even with the second span on I-84 now) is still not a bad choice. But Bear Mountain has the scenery, hands down, and is still the most lightly-travelled of the routes. Just watch out for deer on the PIP, especially during the rut! I hit one there in the late '70s, totalled my car but at least I was OK.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Us Locals here think that direct connection from RT 6 onto RT 17 is bout the best thing we've seen since sliced bread! Seriously, you know how LONG people had to complain about THAT little piece of stupidity?? Next on our Idiot List is the lack of a direct connection between I84 and the Thruway at Newburgh.......or, to ACTUALLY get back to transit, the lack of decent weekend service on the Port Jervis Line....
Anyone up there seriously excited about Pataki's Tappan Zee Bridge proposal in general, and the commuter rail option in particular? For it to work poltically, it needs a variety of supports. Creating a single commuter rail line from Orange (perhaps the airport, a plan which has kicked around for decades) over the bridge and down the Hudson Line would presumably be popular. It would cost money but a two track line could also be used to improve freight access to the city.
Our local paper had a great story on the whole PJ Line situation...most people think the Tappan Zee deal is very very much a pipe dream right now, althought they sure would like the idea of direct sevice into Penn Station or Grand Central...Mostly this article focused on the truly bizarre way our local service is provided- Metro North paying NJT to run their trains over NS tracks..not exactly efficiant! It seems when Conrail was dissolving itself, Metro North actually made a nice offer for the PJ ROW. The palns were then to either double track part of it again, or at the very least make many many more pass-by tracks. Of course, Conrail screwed them and sold the whole thing to NS...NOW the rumors are that Metro North and NS are talking about some kind of expansion deal. I can't see where double tracking would very hard, as the ROW was built to double track standards to start.* Also, MN is replacing half of the NJT coach fleet, and adding a few more on top of that.....Well- we ACTUALLY got this onto a rail/transit tack!!
*What's very interesting is: at the 'new' Middletown station, they have seemed to make the platform extra-extra wide (like they might shave it back someday???).
But for all the griping about Port Jervis weekend non-service, if I'm not mistaken rush-hour ridership is actually quite good, a lot more than what one would expect given the lengthy trip to NYC.
Oh yeah- weekday service is now pretty good, still would love to have at least ONE more RT on weekends....and w/o all those Main Line stops too!
[Next on our Idiot List is the lack of a direct connection between I84 and the Thruway at Newburgh.]
From what I remember (it's been a while since I've been there), making the connection requires going through a couple of lights but *not* going past any businesses. As a result, the non-connection can't be justified on Breezewood grounds (helping bring trade to local businesses) - it's simply pointless.
Its just the Thruway interchange was there LONG before I84 was there, and the exit off of 84 is very inadaquate, dumping a LOT of trucks on a very busy local road. That whole section [between the bridge and the exit] on 84 is very very scary to drive thru at times....The trucks coming onto 84 westbound go around a VERY tight ramp, then have to merge to the right before the off ramp to go to the Thruway {with trucks merging to the right to get off...)
(No I-87/I84 interchange)
There is a very good case for an interchange there. With the completion of I287 in New Jersey, there is a bypass of the city for Southern to New England trucking.
One alternative is the Tappan Zee, the Cross Westchester, and I-95, but that route is a three-time loser.
The other is north on the Thruway, across on I-84, and on to Hartford, Boston, and points north. Lack of an interchange hurts that route.
Given the difficulty of rail access to New England, the I-87 to I-84 area might also be a good place for a truck to rail facility. You'd take it of the train, and ship to New England via I-84.
I can understand taking the wrong "Route 17" exit from the Thruway once, but repeatedly? Once you realize there is a long (15 mile) stretch without exits before you get to the right exit (Harriman, exit 16), I can't see doing it again.
Likewise, the exit from the Taconic to 9A (Briarcliff Manor Parkway - it does have a name, albeit not a posted one) is from the Taconic north of Hawthorne (the former circle) - so any exit south of there isn't the right one. The problem with this exit is that it has NO SOUTHBOUND COUNTERPART. Going south, although you drive right alongside the Taconic, you can't get on! I tried once to cross over to the Taconic using the exit just north of where the roads come together - Pleasantville Rd. I think it's called. The Taconic has a nice diamond interchange with this road. 9A south also has an exit for this road. The problem is, at the top of the exit ramp from 9A south is a big sign reading NO LEFT TURN. Why do they do this??
(How could you make the same mistake more than once)
Every drive with two screaming kids in the car? At least they are quiet on the subway, because they enjoy it. They hate the car.
Likewise, the exit from the Taconic to 9A (Briarcliff Manor Parkway - it does have a name, albeit not a posted one)
Not exactly. It's the Briarcliff-Peekskill Parkway, which morphs into the Croton Expressway as you head north through Ossining. Although I guess 9A is only on the parkway portion (I think it's US 9 on the expressway portion, with 9A on local roads?).
is from the Taconic north of Hawthorne (the former circle) - so any exit south of there isn't the right one. The problem with this exit is that it has NO SOUTHBOUND COUNTERPART. Going south, although you drive right alongside the Taconic, you can't get on!
Well, there was no direct northbound exit from the Taconic to 9A until they rebuilt the Taconic from 4 lanes with no median into 6 lanes on two separate roadways for this stretch. The southbound route requires going south just past the Saw Mill, then making a right on a ramp for NY 141(?) (the ramp does have a sign for the Taconic), then making a few turns on some local roads before letting you on the Taconic southbound.
Whenever I navigate the Hawthorne Interchange I wonder what possessed anyone to run so many roads through there.
Incidentally, as a kid I remember being able to see the defunct Putnam right of way alongside the Saw Mill (south of Hawthorne) and 9A/100 (Hawthorne to Millwood). I know the North Country Trailway built on top of the right of way is continuous from just north of Hawthorne up into Putnam County-- and it's a great bike ride, especially over the Croton Reservoir-- but can one ride on it through Hawthorne to the south?
9A ends in Ossining. It runs from there to the Battery Tunnel.
I can't tell you how many times I got off the Thruway and onto Route 17 in Tuxedo, and ended up on local roads for half an hour, before I finally figured out that Harriman was the place to pick up the actual highway.
A new sign was just erected on the Thruway about a mile before exit 15 (I-287 / NJ 17) saying "Route 17 North exit 15a". That'll add to the confusion, especially for people who want 17 west of Harriman. They'd be getting off 15 miles too early.
But heading south on the Thruway, though, a mile before exit 16 (Harriman) is a sin saying "Route 17 New Jersey - exit 15", keeping you off the local roads.
--Mark
A new sign was just erected on the Thruway about a mile before exit 15 (I-287 / NJ 17) saying "Route 17 North exit 15a". That'll add to the confusion, especially for people who want 17 west of Harriman. They'd be getting off 15 miles too early.
Unfortunately that road that parallels the Thruway between 15A and 16 is NY 17. It should really be renamed NY 32.
(Local part of 17 should be renamed)
New York seems to have lots of signs directing people to exit to local roads, instead of staying on the highway until a later exit. Perhaps the idea is to reduce traffic on the highway. Perhaps some gas station owner paid someone to have the signs say what they do. In any event, if you aren't sure where you are going you can end up going far out of your way.
Confusion could be eliminated by having the exit signed Route 17 local, use next exit for Route Highway to Catskills.
[New York seems to have lots of signs directing people to exit to local roads, instead of staying on the highway until a later exit. Perhaps the idea is to reduce traffic on the highway. Perhaps some gas
station owner paid someone to have the signs say what they do.]
Being that we're talking about New York, we cannot discount the possibility of sheer incompetence. Some states just are better than others at getting things done right.
On the other hand, it's also possible that these misleading signs indeed are delibertately placed to get traffic past local businesses, the classic Breezewood scenario.
I don't see that as a major problem in New York. How many highways are on the section of NY 17 parallel to the Thruway? There surely aren't many.
Pretty soon the highway you want will be renamed I-86, eliminating the confusion. And I still think the north-south section of NY 17 should become NY 32.
There are already I-86 (current, not future) signs on the road west of East Corning, where the road has been I-86 since December 3, 1999. I have a few pictures scattered around http://members.xoom.com/grenbrgr/roadquiz/. (You'll also find two subway pictures -- I assume all SubTalkers will have no trouble identifying them.)
Despite all that, the road is still known as Route 17. Will it remain so known by the time I-86 is complete, which won't be for many years? I have no idea. The part that is already I-86 retains the 17 designation as well, although it's shunted to the side on sign assemblies.
Oh, one more comment: US highways, in funding matters, are no different from state highways. The federal system is one of nomenclature alone. This has been the case from the start.
It's great to get all the details. I'll print it out for my father-in-law. The real question is when will they lift the speed limit. I'm not a speed demon, but others are, and its tough going 60 in a 55 zone and have people whizzing by. Except for the area around Liberty, where everyone knows enough to slow down.
Unfortunately, misc.transport.road is not quite as user friendly as subalk, and I was not quite as able to find the thread on I-86.
The speed limit west of Corning is already 65. The speed limit between east of Lowman Crossover and the Binghamton area is slated to go up to 65 as well. I don't think any of the Quickway will go up to 65 -- it's too curvy and hilly, overall.
There isn't a single thread on I-86 at misc.transport.road -- it's been a running topic of conversation for a few years. You can do a search at Deja.com -- try this search for a representative sample (the first page lists 100 posts since October 19, 1999, and that's only searching for 'Southern Tier'). If you like what you see, pick up a decent newsreader (i.e., anything but your web browser) and join in. I've gotten most of my facts, as posted in my earlier post, from misc.transport.road.
Remember when NY 17 had a railroad crossing on it? I think it was just west of Middletown, and was torn up sometime in the seventies. There were even advance overhead yellow round RXR warning signs on overpasses approaching it from either direction, crossbucks and flashing lights, but no gates. I suspect this was an infrequently used freight line.
After much experimentation, I find the best way up to the Catskill region from eastern Queens and Long Island, depending weather conditions, is Throgs Neck-Bruckner-Hutch-Cross County-Sprain-Cross Westchester-Thruway-Palisades-US 6-NY 17. There's no toll going over the Tap to Rockland, and the Sprain is in much better shape than other north-south Westchester parkways. Of course, if it's raining or snowing, the Palisades and that mountainous stretch of 6 from Bear Mountain to Harriman can be murder.
Coming back home, I go NY 17-US 6-Bear Mountain Bridge -US 6/202-US 9-NY 9A- Sprain, etc. The Bear is only 75 cents and seldom crowded, as opposed to the $2.50 Tap, on which I've experienced half hour delays. That cliffside stretch of 6/202 from the Bear to Peekskill is only three miles, but feels a lot longer. The view is spectacular, but it's not for the faint-hearted, even in clear weather. US 9 from Peekskill to Ossining is built nearly to Interstate standards, and offers great views of the river and Harmon shops as well. 9A is one of those annoying Westchester hybrids also common in Jersey- exits and signals. (See also the Bronx River and Saw Mill Parkways, which also have houses fronting on them.) That switch to the Sprain at Hawthorne is unmarked and EXTREMELY complicated, requiring several turns and cloverleafs. If you make a mistake, there's another entrance within a short distance. Extending the Sprain north from I-287 was a lifesaver!
I find all of this works a lot better than having to cope with the GWB toll line and Cross Bronx.
Before I could drive, I would take the Short Line out of PA to Ellenville or Monticello. We always had to go up NJ 17 through the mall madness that is Paramus. 17 is better than other New Jersey Semi-Supers as far as lights, but that you pay for it with that NJ 4 cloverleaf- even on Sunday.
I'll do anything to avoid the Taconic south of I-84.
My favorite misnomer is the Nassau EXPRESSWAY through Lawrence and Inwood. The Five Town NIMBYs defeated a limited access highway going through their area, so the resulting road has a dozen lights between Rockaway Turnpike/Peninsula Boulevard and the Atlantic Beach Bridge. These lights are always out of sync, too. The air pollution from all these vehicles forced to stop every block must far exceed what would have been emitted from a real, 55MPH expressway. It's faster to stay on the narrow Rockaway Turnpike/Meadow Lane combo, LIRR crossing notwithstanding.
This is the first use of my password. Hope it works- here goes nothing-
I'll do anything to avoid the Taconic south of I-84.
I drove that as part of my daily commute back in the late '70s, from I-84 to Yorktown Heights. Yecch!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Nassau Expressway conforms to the official FHWA definition of expressway which is a limited access highway, which it IS (so they didn't defeat that). A freeway is the term for a Controlled Access Highway. Anyway, this episode with the Expressway proves that NIMBYs are just a bunch of anencephalitics, a freeway would be safer. The next time there's an accident on an intersection, they'll see that that would never happen with a C/A highway in an open cut.
[Anyway, this episode with the Expressway proves that NIMBYs are just a bunch of anencephalitics]
Just like the members of NYC's City Council.
The RR crossing on RT 17 : you are right- it was torn up in the late '7Os..this was the old Pine Bush Branch of the Erie. It was just before you hit exit 119 westbound ( you can still make out where it was pretty good actually...)
Jersey 17: There are now ZERO traffic lights on NJ 17 now..also the new RT 4-17 flyovers are now open, and actually work! Now, if they could only do something about that stretch betrween Paramus and Hackensack...must be of the most obsolete stretches of highway around.....ESPECIALLY considering the amount and kind of traffic it bears..
(Do something about the stretch between Paramus and Hackensack)
I don't see it. The cost would be huge, given the land uses pressing in on both sides and the bridges.
If they are going to spend the money, I think the thing to do is extend Route 17 south across the swamp, hooking up with the end of I-280 and NJ Route 7, which could be expanded. Then build the Bergen Arches road to the NJ waterfront. This would make it easier for Bergen (via 17) Morris and Essex (via 280) residents to get to the Jersey waterfront by car. It would also improve my trips home to Brooklyn from the Catskills.
the feds have agreed to make certain allowances for the
proposed I-86. Specifically, the cost of eliminating steep grades -- especially where the road crosses the Shawgunk Ridge near Wurtsboro -- would be monumental.
I'm sure they do. I-80 has a grade just as steep as NY 17 does in Wurtsboro - in two places in fact - one just east of exit 3 in Fishkill and one just east of the Taconic State Pkwy up the mountain at Stormville.
--Mark
Sorry - that should have read "exit 13 in Fishkill", not exit 3.
--Mark
you must have ment I84 not 80 because 80 doesn't cross the Taconic or even enter NY state.
There is only one traffic light on Route 17 between the Thruway and Roscoe. I hit it every time. Not that I want even more money drained upstate, but I-86 is a good idea. Too many consultants looking to locate a business look at a map of the interstate highway system, and thereby do not think about Southern Tier. Yes, they are that stupid.
[At least Fresno has Cal99, which is a rough equivilent to NY 17 [The Quickway], a states attempt to build an Interstate highway where none was planned originally....[of course, NOW all the politicos want- and are getting 17 changed to I86.....of course theyll have spend MILLIONS to make up to "Interstate standards" whatever the hell that means...] Even though the Taconic is fairly close, the truck traffic has no choice but either dragging all the way up 9, or doing the NY299 death dance.... ]
CALTRANS has been planning to upgrade California 99 to full Interstate standards. Much of it already meets those standards, although there are some gaps.
Interstate standards are actually quite involved. Traffic lights and at-grade intersections are a no-no, but there are a host of other requirements pertaining to median width, exit ramp placement, guardrails, and much else.
BTW - what's the "death dance" on NY299?
NY299 is a nasty stretch of road you have to go on if you are coming from the Thruway to Poughkeepsie via the Mid-Hudson Bridge-lots of truck traffic, kids running back and forth between SUNY-New Paltz and the various Po-town colleges , and just plain idiot drivers..tons of accidents every year on it, but of course whats really needed is an Interstate spur from the Thruway to the bridge, but the NIMBYs would never ever allow it...
There is a City of Poughkeepsie and a Town of Poughkeepsie. I-84 to the City of Poughkeepsie may be longer than that, yet the sign off I-84 says that Poughkeepsie is 12 miles from the exit onto Rt 9. I think it implies the City of Poughkeepsie, but you never can tell.
--Mark
The DOT is wrong on that sign. I just checked mileage using www.switchboard.com and from Ketcham Motors in Fishkill (right off the intersection of 9 and 52, a couple miles on the Poughkeepsie side of I-84) to the Bardavon Theater on Market Street in Poughkeepsie (heart of town, very close to the Mid-Hudson Bridge) it's 12.8 miles. So from I-84 it's at least 15. The signs are supposed to represent distance to the "defined city center", which for Poughkeepsie I believe is the County Courthouse, across the street from the Bardavon.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Towns" are never counted in mileage, since they are not incorporated entities. To get back to transit (sort of) the Metro-North Middletown station is TECHNICALLY Middletown/Town of Walkill,[but the sign at the entrance to the new parking lot plainly says "Middletown Station"!]although I have yet to hear a conductor announce it as so.One of the reasons that the TOWN of Wallkill isn't incorporated as such is that there is already an INCORPORATED hamlet near New Paltz named Wallkill*..[confusing..isnt it??] And don't even ASK about Highland Mills, Highland Falls, and the Town of Highland.....
*most of the people that live in the Town of Wallkill have Middletown P.O. addresses, and tend to identify themselves as being from Middletown..much to the chagrin of the TOW political hacks...
How can a Hamlet be incorporated? And isn't a town by definition incorporated? It might not have any villages though.
Actually what happened, was in the early days the villages in the towns were too small to provide any kind of government service; so the these towns were chartered to provide the services. Now what happened since is that some of these villages have grown big enough to provide services inside the village. So, for example, in the TOWN of Goshen, say, there exists the VILLAGE of Goshen, which provides services (police, trash, etc) inside the village, but outside the limits, the TOWN provides a police dept, road dept, etc..The problem the Town of wallkill has is that Rand MacNally doesn't recognize these townships, nor does the Post Office..(or the Federal Gov't to some extent..) Generally if you get stopped on any of the local highways, you go to town court..not county or village court....So much for our Government lesson for today.....
My understanding is that towns provide some basic services (ie. cops), but if you want more advanced services (water, sewer, professional fire dept) you have to have an incorporated municipality. They you secede from the township as well.
That's in NY. In NJ, everything is an incorporated municpality.
That means that people in villages and hamlets (unincorporated villages, I assume) get none of this? Or can they try to provide that too without forming a city?
So basically, what does a County, Town, Village, Hamlet, City do? In New York City, the City does everything as there is no county (theoretically).
[My understanding is that towns provide some basic services (ie. cops), but if you want more advanced services (water, sewer,
professional fire dept) you have to have an incorporated municipality. They you secede from the township as well.]
In Medford, on Long Island, Brookhaven town provides trash pickup and road maintenance. It also is responsible for recording vital statistics, tax collection, and (AFAIK) has a town court. They have "code enforcement" officers who seem to function as quasi-police, but the actual police department is from Suffolk County. Medford itself doesn't seem to provide any services except for a volunteer fire department. Of course, well over half of our (obscenely high) taxes go to the Patchogue-Medford school district.
This is the breakdown in Orange County as I understand it: The "towns" act as a tax collecting agent for the local school districts, and whatever county taxes are levied, PLUS providing basic police enforcement for those who live outside of incorporated villages. Technically the State Police should be doing some of it, but the response time is so bad, most towns and villages operate their own police depts. There are three incorporated cities in Orange: Newburgh, Middletown, and Port Jervis; these provide all services and collect all the 'local' taxes. The Town of Wallkill is big enough (about 30,000 pop!)that it provides a fairly substantial police force, a water/sewer system, etc,etc. The reason they prob HAVEN'T become a regular incorporated 'city' or whatever, is because there are probably a million 300 yearold compacts,patents, land trusts etc which would make it very difficult for them to do so. The county provides most of the local sevices that the state funds directly or indirectly: social services, they operate a motor vehicle agency,maintain most of the non-state highways, etc, operate the county lock-up, etc etc...Believe me, its confusing to us too!!
Actually, Evan, the interchange that is there today was built in the 1960s, when route 9 was rerouted onto what is officially called the North-South Arterial Highway. Before that the access to the bridge was directly from Church Street (routes 44 and 55). Travelling north, route 9 followed South Road to Market Street and intersected Church Street at the top of the hill. It continued on Market Street, took a dog-leg to the left at the Post Office, and proceeded out of the city on North Road toward Hyde Park. At that time, both Church and Market were two-way streets; Market is one-way northbound from Church to the street past Main now (one block before the post office) and Church is one-way eastbound from just beyond the bridge all the way to Fountain Place.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If I remember my geography, I think that Poughkeepsie is a small suburb of, and just to the north of Wappingers Falls.
You forgot the :-) at the end of your last post! I've lived there too, from December 1978 - March 1981, when my former employer (IBM) transferred me from Chicago, until they let me go back south to North Carolina. There was a trolley line, the Poughkeepsie and Wappingers Falls Street Railway, that connected Poughkeepsie with the Village of Wappingers Falls. It folded around 1936. The Poughkeepsie car barn is still standing; it's been an auto parts store (Diesing Supply) since the 1950s, maybe longer. Down in one of the remaining buildings of the Dutchess Bleachery at Wappingers is a pretty good model RR shop.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Sorry about omitting the :-), I worked in a Brooklyn bank alongside a girl who was from Wappingers Falls, and was very homesick. I heard nothing but Wappingers Falls for three years. I began to think I was from Wappingers Falls instead of Brooklyn. Our bank was right on the corner of Fulton and Crescent where the BMT Jamaica Line made its turn.
She turned out to be a real friend though. In the winter of 1954-55, if I was out to lunch, she would jot down all of the car #'s for me, that she could of the R-10's that made the turn. It was through her efforts that I realized that only R-10's in the 3300 series were working on the BMT. I may not have gotten her interested in Brooklyn, but I think I got her interested in the subways and els. I myself have yet to visit Wappingers Falls.
Now, THAT'S a friend for you! Did she write down any BMT standard or R-16 numbers as well, or just those of the R-10s?
$64,000 question: did you stay in touch with her?
Just the R-10's. The Standards were sort of "old hat" with us by then. She was on a three month maternity leave when the R-16's began to arrive. It wasn't long after that when the bank started a remodeling program, and we lost our view of the trains.
We exchange Christmas cards every year. She still lives in the same house where she lived in 1954. It is within sight of the el, but I never get any reports of what is running anymore.
Down in one of the remaining buildings of the Dutchess Bleachery at
Wappingers is a pretty good model RR shop.
Right you are. Valley Model Trains. Nice selection.
--Mark
Thanks for the info Alan. Only have Royal toes here :)
Simon
Swindon UK
And Sal, don't forget the anchovies.
"I always thought that the conductor looked and acted like a real 70's NYCTA conductor."
As a matter of fact, he was a real NYCT conductor. The way I heard the story, although the movie industry requires extra's to be paid at scale, NYCT does not allow its employees to keep the money paid if it's earned as part of their NYCT duties. NYCT employees are required to surrender the additional money earned as part of their duties. This C/R allegedly refused to hand over the check and was fired. BTW: So was the motorman an NYCT employee.
Thanks for the inside info about the movie. I kinda thought the motorman was real. The conductor looked prety good, also. Gene Hackman is a great actor- he was perfect for that movie. I heard the that the real Eddie Egan was actually Hackman's boss in the movie.
I remember the scene at the car crash where Hackman's boss says he's "off the case". Then the great elevated chase scene takes place takes place after Hackman leaves his apt. That was a pretty mean Pontiac Tempest he commanded. The scene with the Grand Central Shuttle was great, also.
Bzz -Bzz -"Watch the closing doors"
Chuck Greene
02/14/2000
I was told that R-44's were supposed to be used for that run-by shot on the "el". That's the scene where the R-42 signed up (N) is about to be "tripped" and crash into the R-32's on the center track. There were no clean R-44's around but there was a clean set of R-42's, hence the incorrect signage.
What's funny about that chase scene is that at Bay 50th where the shooter boards the northbound, it's an R-32 on the local track which later becomes an R-42 on the center track. Then the crash, oohhhhh..........that's Hollywood!
Bill Newkirk
It would have been difficult for R-44s to be used in The French Connection, since they hadn't been built yet. The movie came out in 1971 (having been filmed some months before its release), and the R-44s made their debut in October of that year. R-42s were the newest cars available.
David
For those interested or who don't know it (most in this thread probably do) - the R42 used in the chase scene was #4572, signed as "N". Cars #4550-4595 were assigned to the "N" at the time.
Wayne
When subway equipment was being selected for the movie, car washers were out of service because it was winter. The producers wanted a clean set of cars, and apparently 4572-4573 were the cleanest cars available. Having the train display an N sign was doing the lesser of two evils.
BTW, during the chase sequence, if you look at the train directly above Hackman just as his LeMans gets smashed into, it's a train of R-32s. (I wonder how much they paid the owner of that car.)
I'm curious as to why the producers opted for an unnecessary two-buzz highball as the train left Bay-50th St.
Actually, the suspect boards an R-42 (4572 or 4573). R-32s are visible in the previous scene of the train pulling into the station as viewed from the Coney Island-bound platform. There is a continuity problem, as the train is on the local track during overhead shots and on the express track in scenes shot through the railfan window and with the camera at coupler height.
SUV's should be relegated to the trucks, buses, and cars lanes of the NJ Turnpike. That way, those incosiderate enough to own those vehicles will rethink using them. And maybe those people who would have used their SUV's to get to NY via the NJ Turnpike may then turn to NJ Transit instead. Even if they don't do that at least some people would be deterred from even buying the SUV because of the restriction. This would improve our environment, reduce road rage, and reduce wear and tear on NYC roads.
[SUV's should be relegated to the trucks, buses, and cars lanes of the NJ Turnpike. That way, those incosiderate enough to own those vehicles will rethink using them. And maybe those people who would have used their SUV's to get to NY via the NJ Turnpike may then turn to NJ Transit instead. Even if they don't do that at least some people would be deterred from even buying the SUV because of the restriction. This would improve our environment, reduce road rage, and reduce wear and tear on NYC roads.]
On what grounds would you propose banning SUV's? Because they're large and heavy? Some models are actually quite small and light (Tracker, Vitara, Sportage, CR/V). Because their high profiles can block the views of car drivers? Minivans, about as car-like a vehicle type as you can get, can have the same effect. If you're going to be consistent, you'd have to ban minivans, pickups, conventional vans and even larger cars from the car-only lanes.
[If you're going to be consistent, you'd have to ban minivans, pickups, conventional vans and even larger cars from the car-only lanes. ]
Well, we've got to start somewhere and SUV's are the best place to start as they have the worst emissions per passenger. Even the "small and light" SUV's severely harm both our physical and mental environments. But you're right the ultimate goal should be to ban all types of large and over-polluting vehicles from Car Only lanes.
I, too am concerned about SUVs. I generally drive the parkways to avoid being run over by trucks. I've very disappointed to find myself towered over by trucks driven by amatuers.
A parkway ban is appealing, but perhaps what you really want is a weight restriction. Since we have parkway in the metro area, such a ban would discourage them here but not in rural areas where they serve a purpose.
On the other hand, the place where they could really cause damage is in Brooklyn. Poor views at corners, because of on-street parking (by SUVs) and buildings at the lot like, lead to lots of sideswipe collisions at low speeds. If an SUV bumper comes through the window, it could be fatal.
I think the smaller ones are OK. The Honda CR-V and Geo Tracker are about the size of a Honda Civic.
I think a CDL should be required to operate the big ones. That will give the person more training and many people will not go through the trouble.
In the Portland Ore and Vancouver Wash. areas people drive pickups that are so high off the road the bumpers are almost roof high,those idiots should have cdl's.....and they drive like they own the roads,it's scary.
[On the other hand, the place where they could really cause damage is in Brooklyn. Poor views at corners, because of on-street parking (by SUVs) and buildings at the lot like, lead to lots of sideswipe collisions at low speeds. If an SUV bumper comes through the window, it could be fatal.]
By that reasoning, you'd also have to ban pickups and conventional vans.
(Ban pickups and conventional vans).
Easier to move passengers in a car than to move freight in a car. Because vans and trucks have their place, they surely should not be banned altogether. But a small vehicle with a commercial plate is not allowed on the parkways, while a Chevrolet Suburban with a private plate is. Does THAT make sense?
The NYDMV will soon permit pick-up trucks to be registered as passenger vehicles and thus be permitted on the parkways. So a small pick-up truck is a truck today but not in a few weeks. An SUV is not a truck because it has side windows. But a Camry with commercial plates should not be permitted on the parkways? It shows just how muddled these terms have become. The signs at the parkway entrances always read "No Commercial Traffic" but shouldn't they really say "No Trucks". I occasionally see empty NYCTA buses on the Belt Parkway and on the Richmond Parkway. Is a bus a commercial vehicle or a very large passenger vehicle.
From the DMV-
http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/reg.htm#pick-up
NYCTA has permits (which many yellow bus companys have as well) that allow them to use NYC Parkways.
-Hank
A fully occupied SUV should be welcome anywhere a car is.
I think they are - it's just that they don't exist.
[A fully occupied SUV should be welcome anywhere a car is. ]
No, the per passenger weight and gas usage of a fully occupied SUV is much higher than a fully occupied car. We need to discourage their use.
When the weather gets better I'll be back on my two motorcycles, my '91 Harley & my '82 Yamaha!!!!
This is way off topic but since I'm just answering an existing thread I think they should ban all of those bigger vehicles from parking anywhere near a corner or driveway. It is impossible to see when pulling out when they are parked blocking your vision. And they should all be banned from the parkways as Robt Moses intended them to be.
As stated some SUV s are smaller, I have a Subaru Forester, It is smaller the most Mini Vans, and even full size staion wagons. Even though nobody makes those anymore.
[This is way off topic ]
Actually, it isn't. This is a transit related issue and certainly impacts the New York City subway system. One could argue that less SUV's means more transit riders although one could also argue that fewer SUV's means more cars and fewer transit riders.
Th main problem with SUVs is that they are classified as light trucks, and therefore exempt from CAFE regulations. Once this changes, I'lkl have no problem with SUVs, other than that their drivers think it makes them immune to the laws of physics. 4-wheel-drive does not mean 4-wheel-stop.
-Hank
You may have a point about SUVs. The main problem is not the vehicle, its the drivers. Unless the number of a-hole drivers goes down, eliminating the SUVs will not eliminate the danger, it will just make it more difficult to identify.
I got a better one - let's just ban SUVs altogether.
Nobody needs a truck to ferry the kids to their friends.
I'd love how Ford says the Excursion is "more effecient than two fully loaded full sized sedans carrying the same load"
1) Who the hell owns a full sized sedan anymore?
2) Who the hell travels with so many people that they need two full sized sedans for everyone?
3) Has anyone here ever seen a fully loaded SUV? I haven't
Friends who own them say that once you've had the security of being able to see down the road, over all the little cars, you never go back. The trouble is, in 10 years I'll be dwarfed in a little car and the SUV owners won't be able to see anyway, because I'll own the last one.
Kind of reminds me of the "race for the sky" in residential tower Joe Rose wants to end with height limits.
Sorry for drifting this thread away, but I just have to put in my 20 mils. This Joe Rose character is a DAMN FOOL, he should be run OUT OF TOWN! It is New York tradition for buildings to be built higher and higher. Putting this to a stop will be the end to another New York tradition. This guy is just at league with the NIMBYs and BANANAs.
WHat's a BANANA?
Build Absolutely Nothing ? Near Anybody.
It's a long, yellow fruit that grows on trees in tropical regions.
-Hank :)
But I belive you're looking for 'Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone.
[Joe Rose wants to end with height limits]
Who is Joe Rose?
Joe Rose is the Chairman of the City Planning Commission, and my boss.
As the Giuliani Administration is ending, he stalled and de-facto terminated a number of zoning initiatives -- including the updating of the Use (type of business allowed) regulations I worked on the past few years, in favor of advancing a massive height and setback regulation proposal, which was just released.
I'm mad as hell about the end of the other projects. He feels imposing height limits will do more to burnish his reputation. The limits are such that virtually all new buildings would be unchanged, but the occasional monster (ie. Trumps new building) would be illegal.
I'd rather the Giuliani Administration managed to get some thing built in seven years than this.
I'm at a loss to see the SUV - Skyscraper connection.
Last I checked, large buildings don't obstruct the view of other cars, cut you off, get driven by cell phone jabbering yuppies who are paying attention to everything *but* their driving, end up on the curb when going around a corner, or occupy 2 parking spots because they're owners can't handle them. And I seldom see the Empire State Building makeing left turns from the righthand lane.
As for height restrictions, there already is one - the federal government prohibits any building from being over 2000 feet.
Chicago's gonna have the world's tallest building again in a few years, but it's getting that honor because of a TV tower on the roof of it. I'd love to see NYC build one taller (and with less of an antenna), but the nimbyism (witness the Trump thing) means nobody ever will.
(Skyscraper/SUV connection)
People want to be in taller towers, so they can have views unobstructed by neighboring buildings.
People like SUV because they are able to see down the road over smaller cars.
Once you have all tall towers, or all SUVs, the advantage is lost.
But nobody will go into a gift shop in New York City and buy a postcard featuring a picture of a parking lot full of SUV's. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Nor will you ever see a postcard of the Empire State Building hanging a left turn.:) LOL
The TV tower doesn't count in the 'official' height. Actual building height will be 1550', according to Popular Mechanics. With the transmitter, it'll hit 2000' That's nearly 1/2 mile tall. Sorry, I'm gonna stay on the 2nd floor. I can't picture living or working that high. I actually declined a job because it was on the 96th floor of 1 WTC. Scared the crap out of me.
-Hank
Actually, the TV tower does count. There are three "world's tallest" titles: Highest occupied floor, structural top, top of tower or whatever else you stick on top. Right now, all three are held by different buildings. If they build this proposed building, it will hold all three titles.
Where does the term "freestanding structure" fit in?
I frequently hear this term in descriptions of the CN Tower in Toronto, which is usually referred to as "One of the tallest freestanding structures in the world", or "Canada's tallest freestanding structure" or something like that.
Is "freestanding structure" just Canadian for "building", or is it a whole different class of object?
Ferdinand Cesarano
Well, a building is a stack of floors. The freestanding structure in this case is a concrete tower with a few floors on top. Why freestanding? Because there are cable reinforced transmission towers extending from the ground that are taller.
Not really sure on that one.
No relation to Pete, right?
Out here in Oregon everyone uses the freeway (no tolls....yet) trucks ,buses,cars all sizes,and 2,4,6 door pickups and suv's so whats the problem ? traffic still moves even with three trailer rigs thrown in for good measure.
Uhm, what's a full-size sedan?
-Hank :)
Like an LTD or a Crown Victoria or a Lincoln Towncar. Things that cops drive around.
I know, I was being facetious. The biggest car my family owns is a 1993 Buick Roadmaster. Drives like a boat, sucks gas like a locomotive.
-Hank
Ah, a Roadmonster. They are really good for camping trips. My uncle had a Roadmonster Station wagon untill recently when he upgraded to a Tahoe. Did you know that a Jeep is considered an SUV. In fact it was the first SUV. I've always wanted a Jeep. My friend took me off roading in his and it was the most fun I had had in a while. Of course my dream SUV would be a Hummer or maybe some sort of Halftrack like an M3 or a Sdkfz-251. Milage sucks, but they are bullet proof and those tracks give you great traction in ice and snow.
Take it from a Jeep owner - you'll like it. Strictly my opinion, understand. Mine's like an R-32: it keeps going and going and going. Should hit 385,000 miles tomorrow - time for an oil change.
I always disliked driving behind them, but they're OK. I'm driving one (a '00 Mitsubishi Montero Sport) this week (my car was rear-ended last week) as a rental and it's been loads of fun. It does use much more gas than than my Honda Accord, but it was a nice change of pace. However I am ready to have my Honda again.
Wayne
I have an idea. If you don't like being pushed around try buying something BIGGER. If you are on a tight budget try buying something pre-1975 like an LTD or a Detla 88 or even a Lincoln. Not only do those cars bring size to the table they also bring their age. The oldest paint job has the right of way for good reason. While you would be able to ignore most dents a meer scartch on an SUV can cost hundreds of dollars to fix. The sight of 2 tonnes of rust with questionable breaks bearing down of them will make most SUV owners turn tail and run. Its even better if you can get a few dents on the front. Anyone who owns a car of any value will instantly pull over and wave you past. So if you aren't willing to get an SUV of your own get an old car. THey are roomy, made of steel, have more power than you can shake a stick at, eat little cars for breakfast, you don't need a PhD to fix them and emmissions laws don't apply to you.
I say don't burn less gas, plant more trees.
Yeah, those older cars were built like BMT standards.
we have TOTAL MADNESS out here in los angeles county california.......
ITS CALLED THE DIAMOND LANES ( get rid of them all!!!! )
formerly RED CAR lines right of ways !!!!!!!
Los Angeles - Land of the free, Home of the Brave, and the Auto is KING!!!!!
Californians are born in cars, linve in cars and die in cars.
And they also attend funerals and wakes in cars! I'm not kidding!
-Hank
And also go to church in cars!!! I'm not kidding either!!
Today's _Wall Street Journal_ had an interesting article about SUV's. After years of being top sellers, not to mention highly profitable for the auto makers, it looks as if SUV's might be past their peak of popularity. While sales are still increasing, it's at a diminished rate, and inventories on dealers' lots have risen precipitously. For example, in less than a year average inventories of Dodge Durangos have risen to 99 days' estimated sales from 43 days. Auto makers are now considering sales incentives on some SUV models, which until recently was an absurd notion.
Rising gasoline prices and a proliferation of new models were cited as the main reasons for this sales weakness. The article also noted that some of the biggest SUV models, most notably the Ford Excursion, are just too big for many buyers, not fitting into most garages. One thing that wasn't mentioned, but seems to me a possible factor, is buyer resistance to the out-of-sight prices on most SUV's.
Following is a list of original lengths of subway station platforms on the “B” Division opened from the 1960’s onwards.
Grand Street : start 888+05, end 894+20
57th Street-6th Avenue : start 1090+50, end 1096+65 (At the northernmost end of the station, chains B5 and B6 become T1 and T2, respectively)
Lexington Avenue-63rd Street : T2 platform start 1130+30, end 1136+95; T1 platform start 1130+50, end 1136+95
Roosevelt Island : start 1173+55, end 1179+70
21st Street-Queensbridge : T2 start 1205+30, end 1211+45; T1 start 1205+50, end 1211+60 (now a terminus, soon to connect to the IND Queens Boulevard line)
[NOTE: The Archer Avenue extension has a different measure of mileage than what comes before it. By my calculations, DA 76+00 (IND Queens line) probably equals 1726+00, while J 76+00 (BMT Broadway Brooklyn line) probably equals 670+60, based upon the fact that what is on the signals differs from what’s on the sidewalls of those stations, all of which are island platforms.]
Jamaica-Van Wyck : start 26+20, end 32+35
Sutphin Boulevard : start 57+65, end 63+80
Jamaica Center : DA1, J1 and J2 platforms start 76+00, end 82+30; DA2 platform start 76+00, end 82+25
Could you do an "encore performance" of this series? I missed most of it, and I can't seem to find any of the previous posts in this series. I tried looking as far back as I could, but I could only go back as far as January 30, 2000.
What does the bars of colored tape below the car numbers stand for, is it which yard the car is assigned to?
Yup. I don't have the specs. There was a thread about it long ago. You can try to find it but I doubt it's still here.
Yellow-Pelham (6, S)
Red-242 Street (1/9)
Blue-Lenox/Linovia (3)
Green-238 Street (2)
Black-Unionport/180 Street (5)
Purple-Flushing (7)
Orange-Jerome (4)
Think that is all. May be some errors.
Doesn't a black or yellow band with a purple diamond mean Corona (Flushing)? That's all I see under the car numbers of the cars I see on the 7 line.
Yes, but that's only on the IRT. While you might see some bands on the IND/BMT, the routine shuffling in that division causes cars to be assigned to yards exclusively by the numbers in the records.
So is there an ERA meeting this Friday?? Slideshow??
If so I'll try to make it but might have to cut it short since I have to be up bright and early to work on the Branford R17, what a transit weekend this will make >G<.
02/14/2000
Yes there is a slide show, Andrew Grahl is hosting this one.
Do you need to know the location and time?
Bill Newkirk
Won't hurt, I'll try to hook up with BMT Man and/or Thurston if they are going. Busting my ERA Cherry...
I wonder if HeyPaul is bringing his Grill??
heypaul does not eat meat !!! bring your own grill !!!
Unfortunately Transit and Weather are not Together this weekend, so I won't be there. But T&WT returns the following weekend.
It's listed in the Events Calendar.
-Dave
Gee guys--- doesn't anyone know how to spell? You leave out r's in Transit, and put in l in side show. There will be a sideshow not a slideshow. I will be bringing my gas grill to this meeting, as there is someone there who is going to get grilled to medium well. I will endeavor to turn the evenings slideshow into a sideshow.
Last month, when I sat next to you I must say the burgers were grate !
This is advertized as a must see slideshow, by the presenter.
For those who haven't been to one, this is the forth and final in their Millennial series. Last month was a 99 % NYC show, this one will include some out-of-town (within USA) mass transit. $5 at the door for guests, but well worth the price AND you'll get to meet a good number of SubTalkers.
Mr t__:^)
I suggest we grill Thurston medium to well-done ;-)
NO LEFTOVERS!
Doug aka BMTman
I'm already smoked from sitting next to HeyPaul's grill that night for several hours ;-)
Mr t
are the redbirds still on number # 4 past yankee stadium ??
e mail me asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com
LACRS: They weren't last summer when I was in New York, but they were running on the #2 and #7 lines.
There are Redbirds running on the No.2,4,5,6,and 7 Lines
except for the number 1 cause it is greedy
Yes, the No.1&3 have there full R62'A fleet At Van Courtlandt the word Redbird is considered a bad word in the crewroom.
Not to worry, soon R-142 will be considered a bragging word at all the crew rooms that don't use them (#1,3,4 and 7 lines) and R-62 will be a bad word at the crew rooms that do use R-142's. (#2,5 and 6 lines.)
As the novelty wears off, I'll bet most train operators will be nostalgic about the redbirds, and will probably compete for R62 picks, if past history is any clue.
Yes, There are Redbirds still on the No.4 Line that run from Woodlawn to Utica, But its a hit and miss. If you have 30 Minutes to spare waiting on a platform on a weekday you may find one.
Dave: I rode the #4 Woodlawn five times last summer and I didn't see a Redbird coming or going, and that is why I answered the way I did. I couldn't understand why the #2 was all Redbird as well as the #7. Who allocates these trains to the various lines? Is it a hit or miss operation?
Fred: There are several trainsets of Redbirds (R-33's and I believe one R-36) assigned to the IRT #4. However being birds they tend to travel in flocks so you might find find three or four in a row and then a long succession of the Silver Bullets.
Larry,RedbirdR33
R33 #9220 thru #9305 (with the exceptions of #9224 [scrapped] and #9225 [mated to #9130 and on the #2 line]) are the Redbirds assigned to the #4. I know of no R36 operating out of Jerome/Concourse. If there is one, please let me know what the numbers are.
Wayne
On that dreadful day when the 'birds are scrapped
(which I hope NEVER comes).. will they be selling
parts of the cars (i.e. $5.00 obsolete car numbers
sold at the GCT Transit Store).. I've a few items
I'd like to grab hold of.
thank you for the # 4 REDBIRD infromation !! i will be shooting the L line and the # 4
the same day i need this for my next railfan_ vidieo shot thru the front railfan window THANK YOU ALL
for the # 4 information !!!!!!!!!!!
If you're going to do the "L", make sure you get a Slant.
Careful attention should be paid to the NORTHBOUND stretch of track from Sutter Avenue to Broadway Junction. You may have to ride through there a few times to get all the details. They are planning to tear that part down, so it will be of historic value. There's a mean "S" curve just north of Sutter, with a piece of the old Pitkin Avenue El
hanging above it.
Don't forget to feature some of the tilework as "betweens".
Wayne
R33s 9218 and 9219 also belong to #4.
Chaohwa
Someone posted the December car assignments, and it said the #4 had 80 R33 cars, and no R36 cars. All R36 mainline cars are supposed to be running on the #6. However, this could've changed.
I remember R36 cars on the 4 a couple of years ago......
Nice pack of redheads on the 4 line
being led by 9230 (whichever end comes first)
There are skylights on the platform at the Times Square Shuttle.
Where do they go?
www.forgotten-ny.com
They lead to a long abandoned staircase and underpass to the Uptown local platform (track 4 ). If you look at the concrete you can easily see where they covered over the stairs. You will still see the other staircase on that platform.
Remember the station was originally a local station and the underpass
allowed passengers who entered on the uptown side to get to the downtown side (and vice versa).
When the shuttle was created and the cross platform erected at the north end the staircase/underpass was no longer necessary.
Most posters on this board ride subways by choice, and have an environmental frame of mind. Many are also partial to rail freight, because it requires less energy and land to move goods, and is thus better for the environment. And many are favorable to cities, where housing units in apartment buildings and rowhouses have less exterior surface area, and are cheaper to heat and cool, than detached houses. Some even ride inter-city buses and trains, which are also thrify on fuel relative to airplanes. These are minority viewpoints.
As it happens, the rising price of oil has made those with the majority viewpoint -- those living in detached houses, driving SUVs, traveling between cities in airplanes, and moving goods by truck -- somewhat uncomfortable. Compared with many of our youth in the 1970s, oil remains affordable, but it is cheaper than it was during the big price plunge 18 months ago. Many are so rich these days they have barely noticed, and have not complained.
But others now want emergency action on their behalf -- diesel subsidies for truckers, release of stored petroleum for home heating, etc. etc. Do they deserve help? Or will we all be better off in the long run if prices remain this high, and choices are made accordingly?
For my own part, since I live in a gas-fueled rowhouse with a modern furnace and an electronic timed thermostat, I only pay about $500 per year for heat. And I drive so little, and in a Saturn wagon, the price of gasoline is not a problem. On the other hand, living in the city imposes certain costs on me -- parochial school tuition due to the lousy schools, high insurance costs, high taxes to pay for welfare, etc. No one seems in the mood to help me with those. So I say "free market, deal with it."
What say you?
The price of heating oil will soon fall because winter is half over and OPEC can never stay together for too long. The smaller OPEC countries like Nigeria and Venezuela cave in. The reserves should only be released in times of national emergency or acute shortages caused by wars. Prices go up sometimes in a generally prosperous free-market economy. Homeowners should convert to gas. It's a better system and you won't have to deal with the miserable local oil companies and their surly employees. I am one of those majority people in a detached house (24' x 36' ranch), just replaced my 40 year old gas furnace with a new 80% efficiency gas unit. I keep it at 68º to save even more money. Best way to heat a house, cleaner and safer than oil despite the oil industry's 'fear' advertising campaign. As for truckers, deal with it guys. Eat it or pass it on like any other business in the world today. I say give them kleenex to cry in and that's all. By the way $500 a year to heat a house is pretty good I'd say.
Ewwww, you converted to gas heat? Gas is awful. First of all it is dangerous. When my Grandfather came home once from a trip and found the doors blown off the basement he instantly converted to oil heat and electric everything else. Although an electric 80 gallon water heater that had its own seperate electric meter was a bit excessive oil heat is safer. Heating oil is very hard to ignite, dosen't explode, smells better and can be easily cleaned up with kitty litter. Also oil is more flexable. I am assuming that you are getting your gas piped in from a central gas line out in the shtreet. Well if there is a massive break down of society how long do you think that's going to last. With my self contained basement tank I'll be warm and toasty while the looting and killing runs its course. My neighbor's house was built in 1927 and she has a 1000 gallon external tank. You can fill that up when prices are low and keep using cheap fuel for the next 5 or so years. Also the oil fuel is easyly transporable. If you need something to get that bondfire going or if the points have frozen in your interlocking plant just get a bucket and pour yourself some liquid heat. And if you really want to save money try converting to coal, it can't cost much more than $100 a tonne or just burn your trash. Plastic's just really thick oil anyway.
I use gas as well, and I'm glad. Nothing like the Blizzard of '96, when the oil trucks were stranded in the street and gas flowed under it, to sell me. It's better for the environment. You aren't even allowed to burn coal in NYC, unless you are a public school. But my father-in-law burns it in Upstate New York, avoiding the burden.
This issue has come up before. Early in the Clinton Administration, there was some talk of environmental taxes. People in places that use a lot of energy said it was unfair, and would benefit NYC too much. New York State, primarily because of NYC and the SUBWAY, is 50th out of 50 states in per capita energy consumption.
So any attempt to make people pay the environmental price of air pollution, through taxes or lack of subsidies when the market takes its course, "favors" New York City. My point was, because NY is so different, may other things DO NOT favor NYC. No one believes it is a national issue to help out with those. They scream freeloader, or welfare, or something.
Unlike many NYC Democrats, I've begun to get the idea that everyone would get along better if they were more on their own, with the federal government not taking sides.
Why would the oil trucks be out in the winter? The whole POINT with oil heat is that you buy your oil in the summer or fall when prices are low and there's no urgency. If you need a mid-year fill then you need a bigger tank. My neighbor with the 1000 gal tank could survive a whole ice age (or at least a nuclear winter). However the tank is 73 years old and it is burried in the yard so I wouldn't be surprized if her front yard catches fire. If there's one thing you never want to do its to have the tank dug up. If they diggers find that they tank has been leaking (which they all do) they have to call the EPA (unless you bribe them) and then they have to dig up your whole yard ro remove the contamination.
Oil trucks come out in winter because not all of us have huge tanks - mine is 290 gallons, which is the largest (residential) underground tank legally allowed in Monmouth County.
But I'm with you - I lived in Barcelona 30 years ago. One morning we woke up at 5 AM to a loud roar; the seven-story building two doors away from us was a pile of rubble, 40-plus people killed, thanks to a gas explosion. When I bought my New Jersey house in 1997 I converted the kitchen from gas to electric and will eventually replace the existing oil furnace and gas hot water heater with a super-efficient oil unit that provides both.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you take proper care of your equipment, you don't have problems with gas. While I'm not a point in my life where I need to make such a decision, my aunt lives in Monmouth (Old Bridge Twp) and her oil tank (30 years old or so) had a leak. It cost them over $10,000 to have the tank dug up, the soil properly removed, a new Fiberglas tank installed in the garage (shrinking the car space), clean fill (to replace the contaminated soil and tank space), a resodding of the front lawn, and the now quarterly testing that needs to be done on her soil to check for the spread of the contamination.
No thanks, I'll take gas when the time comes.
-Hank
Natural gas suppliers have to put a chemical in the system to allow people to smell any leaks, so you should be able to tell before any serious buildup occurs.
Also under federal law gas lines must have shutoff valves not only at the meter outside, but on all gas appliances inside homes. Some people (or installers) bypass the latter when putting in ovens, furnaces or water heaters, which can also cause problems.
That chemical which is added to gas to give it that unpleasant odor is called mercaptain (sp).
MercapTIN is also the active ingredient in skunks
She should have ignored the problem. If you try and mess with your tank you'll wish you've never been born. Its cheaper to absorb the cost of the leaking oil than to get it fixed. The other solution is to seal off the old tank and install a new internal talk and pretend the old tank never existed.
Of course, leaking diesel tanks may end up absorbing a lot of the TA's budget. A bus issue, but it will drain money from the subways. Fortunately, the electric subways don't have these problems.
I just read a national story on the oil price increase. It says most people have not been badly hurt and are not complaining. And indeed, while the price of gasoline has risen, it has risen from very low levels to the level of not too long ago.
There seems to be a squeeze on specifically in home heating oil, which is only hurting the Northeast. No wonder there is no rush to do something about it.
Gasoline prices have just taken their first really sharp jump in the past week. Before then, all price increases were in one or two-cent increments -- since the price of oil got close to $30 a barrel the gasoline prices have jumped by eight- to 10-cent increments.
Once the media is told this next week by the Lundberg Letter, expect to see more stories about rising gas prices threatening to slow the economy and kick up inflation threats.
(Rising gasoline prices causing inflation.)
I feel the warm glow of nostalgia. It is as if we are returning to the days of my youth.
Back then, the gas lines didn't lead more people to transit, because the cities and their transit systems were in collapse at the same time. This time could be different. Then again, the NYC transit system is stuffed to the gills as it is.
But to bring oil up to where it was in inflation adjusted dollars, price increases would have to go on for some time. I don't see OPEC allowing that. The last thing they want if for Americans to start thinking about conserving energy again. I expect them to open the tap and try to keep prices between $25 and $30 -- high enough so they don't suffer, low enough so we don't suffer and seek alternatives.
Last week, gas prices here in Champaign-Urbana, IL jumped 17 cents overnight ($1.269 to $1.439 for the cheapest 87 octane I could find). And they're no better 30 miles away in Danville (near the Indiana border), where they're usually a good 5-10 cents cheaper.
I saw premium for 1.69 here in Hartford (1.49 regular). I don't care. It could be $2 a gallon - I average 40 - 47mpg on my bike, so this doesn't bother me much. And I *LOVE* listening to all the kids here with SUVs whine and moan about how they can't drive from their dorm to class (nice 1000 foot walk) because it's too expensive and mommy and daddy only give them $100 a week for gas.
Oh yes, and listening to the idiots with their Navigators complain because they now can't leave the engine running while they shop, eat at resturants, get beer, etc.
I've seen so many people be so wasteful over the last year or so, that I think the american public, by and large, needs another gas shortage to knock some sense into them.
(People have been so wasteful).
You're right about that. Energy conservation has really been ignored, carpooling has disappeared, and the size of cars and houses has gotten out of hand.
Unlike in the 1970s, however, the engineers seem to have some fixes up their sleeve. The internet lets you telecommute. Flourescent builds and energy efficient appliances have continued to get developed despite the cheap oil. Hybrid fuel cell engines could let the monster machines get by on as little gas as today's Honda Civic. Solar-electric power keeps getting cheaper. And natural gas is more available than it was, though not for everyone.
If nothing else, six months of expensive gasoline and oil might push along some of these developments which might otherwise have seemed un-economic. It's good to remember that energy efficiency and alternative fuels do matter. People say they care about the environment, but a little reminder at the pump does not hurt.
The problem with Connecticut is that their gas tax is insane. Instead of being sensable, like New Jersey, CT did away with all its toll roads. So instead of out-of-staters and through truckers paying the tax they shifted it onto themselves. So the next time you come to New Jersey make sure you ride up and down the turnpike a few times, it helps keep my gas prices low.
(Next time you come to New Jersey)
I try to avoid the turnpike, and the toll, but I always buy gas in NJ. It is an exception to my buy local and keep the jobs and taxes home attitude. I'm hoping NJ will build the Bergen Arches highway, so I can get from the Holland Tunnel to Route 17 with less difficulty. It's the least you can do for me, I say. I always drive to NJ to avoid the Tappan Zee.
What's bad about the Tappen Zee. I use it to get to school (when I'm not train-ing) and it always seems fine. FYI even the gas stations in the little centre islands on the Garden State Pkwy. are almost 20 cents cheaper than regular CT gas.
PS: I remember that over the summer some placed started selling gas for 75 cents a gallon. Man that really took me back to 1989. Fill up the trunk and stop buying milk, from now on the cat drinks unleaded.
If you're driving to New York from Baltimore or Washington, the best way to avoid the Turnpike tolls is to take I-295 from the Deleware Memorial Bridge to U.S. 130 at Bordentown, and from there north to State Highway 32. You get on the turnpike there, but take it only two exits to the Outerbridge Crossing exit, then come into the city through over the Outerbridge, the West Shore and Staten Island Expressway and the Verrazano. The turnpike toll's only about 40 cents that way, and you only have the $4 Outerbridge toll to worry about.
Going the other way, it's cheaper to avoid SI and use the Holland or the Lincoln tunnel, but the connections to avoid the tolls aren't as easy, plus you have to pay the Memorial Bridge toll going into Deleware.
When it comes to tolls, New Jersey's the state it's free to get into, but you have to pay to get out.
Speaking of Delaware tolls ... not only is it $2 at the bridge (southbound only) but it's $2 each way on I-95 for eleven miles of driving. Delaware is also building a new superhighway running north-south, parallel to US 13 south of Wilmington, which will be toll. US 13 is also slated to be NARROWED from four lanes to two after the completion of the superhighway, have its speed limit reduced to 35 mph, and designated for "local delivery only" so that all but local traffic will be forced onto the toll road. Tolls on that stretch will total $8 or $10 for about 40 miles ($2 per toll booth, but I don't remember how many booths). EZ-PASS will be offered but no discount.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can still bypass some of the tolls going through Deleware by taking U.S. 40 south as you come off the Memorial Bridge. It's a lot slower going into Baltimore that way, but if you connect up to U.S. 301, you can come into Washington via the Maryland Eastern Shore and the Bay Bridge. Until it connects up to U.S. 50, 301 is pretty deserted in Maryland, so you can do just about as good a time as on the JFK Turnpike.
Yes, I came north that way on Monday (I had to make a round trip from Eatontown, NJ to Chester, VA - the engine blew in my wife's Mustang and I had to go pick her up). It actually adds about an hour to the trip. Going south I took the usual I-95 route, going through Baltimore on the Harbor Tunnel. It took six hours southbound and eight northbound, of which one hour northbound was due to bad weather and a food stop. One heck of a way to spend Valentine's Day!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Bay Bridge/I-295 route is a lot better route northbound than southbound, not only because you bypass more tolls, but if you're coming up to NYC in the afternoon, you're going the reverse of the rush hour traffic through central New Jersey, Staten Island and Brooklyn. It also was more even as far as time goes before they built the I-95 Key Bridge connection through Baltimore. The Harbor Tunnel used to be as bad a bottleneck as the Holland or Lincoln approaches when it was the only option.
I remember those days - I've been making that run since I was a child (and I'm a grandfather now). This trip was southbound in the morning/early afternoon, northbound in the afternoon/evening. I only came that way because I would have ended up on the B-W Parkway at rush hour if I had taken the usual route around DC and I thought it might reduce the rate at which my blood pressure was rising. Probably didn't, but that was because of the weather as much as anything else.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've made the run for 20 years now. At least they've improved U.S. 50 between the Beltway and the Bay Bridge -- more lanes and no more traffic lights. And it still amazes me how empty U.S. 301 is on the Eastern Shore, compared with the rest of the trip.
Also, there's an Exxon station in Bordentown, N.J., just after you get off I-295 and onto U.S. 130 that ususally has the cheapest full serve regular I can find. That may get even more important if the prices keep going up.
My mom had to get towed to that Exxon when the guys down at the Citgo gave her bad gas a few years back.
You can avoid ALL the Delaware tolls by going off 95 at the last Maryland exit, and getting back on 95 AFTER the tollbooths. Any good mapping program should be able to give you the basic route. I can do it by memory (go to a local high school for theatre organ concerts), and shocked my wife the last time we went mall crawling in Delaware by using the "don't pay the tolls" route.
[You can avoid ALL the Delaware tolls by going off 95 at the last Maryland exit, and getting back on 95 AFTER the tollbooths]
By cheating the system, you are hurting transit riders everywhere.
It ain't hurting transit riders, DART gets a pretty good chunk of DE money. It's refusing to pay a SOAK toll, which is what Delaware is doing. Maryland charges $1.00 each way (collected northbound only to save time), while Delaware hits for $2.00, collected each way. That's literally Highway Robbery. I didn't start the no pay, the locals did.
TOUGH!!
Besides, why is that cheating the system?
[why is that cheating the system? ]
Because the car didn't pay for its use of the highway.
But he didn't USE the highway in question!
-Hank
[But he didn't USE the highway in question! ]
Yes he did. He used the highway up until the exit before the toll plaza and used it again starting at the exit after the toll plaza.
Well, that's DelDOT's fault. If they wanted to charge a toll for the whole highway instead of just that section between the two exits, they should have put in ramp tolls.
Besides, who rides transit in Delaware?
But the parts of the highway he used didn't charge tolls! They could easily institute a ticket system, like on most of the Thruway (and many other toll roads), but they didn't.
I occasionally take the Thruway south from NY 100 -- that's south of the last toll booth. Am I stealing from NYSTA?
[I occasionally take the Thruway south from NY 100 -- that's south of the last toll booth. Am I stealing from NYSTA? ]
You would be if you purposefully used part of the highway that was meant to be paid for but skipped the toll so as not to pay for it.
Well, the way the DE toll plaza is set up, they're asking for it. Remember, if they were so concerned about charging for the part of the highway NOT including the space between those two exits, they would put in ramp tolls.
Ahh...but what about the local travelers who drive on 95 and whose routes don't take them through the toll booth?
On the other hand, 95 is heavily-used by out-of-staters from Maryland and points south, who go to DE for the tax-free shopping.
"[why is that cheating the system? ]
Because the car didn't pay for its use of the highway. "
The toll system on I-95 in Delaware was designed to charge only out-of-state drivers for use of I-95 but leave it free for those starting or ending their trips in DE. If you're in Newark, the local road signs even guide you to bypass the toll. Since I had the mispleasure of living in DE for 4 years, I figure I paid my dues (and taxes). So when I rarely drive through that part of I-95, make a detour for gas in DE (cheap) and liquor in MD (really cheap) and save myself a toll.
Actually, when the Delaware Turnpike opened, there were ramp tolls. However, as parallel roads continued to be congested with people unwilling to pay the tolls, and the highway was relatively open, the ramp tolls were removed.
I think I posted this before, but here it is again. Heading north on I-95 you get of at the Elkton exit in the direction opposite Elkton (its the clover leaf ramp after the bridge) you then continue on that road towards Newark. After you cross the Delaware border you need to make a right at the SECOND big intersection (I think its Rt 9 or 419). You'll then head up and over Amtrak's NEC, drive a bit and come to another big intersection. Accross the street is the U of D football stadium. Here you make a right and then you're at the exit to get back on the Delaware Tpk. NOTE: If you make the first right, you'll do over the NEC, but under I-95 because it does not lead to an exit. If you find yourself going over the NEC and under I-95 turn around and go down another road. Repeat these steps in reverse for southbount travel.
[You can still bypass some of the tolls going through Deleware by taking U.S. 40 south as you come off the Memorial Bridge. It's a lot slower going into Baltimore that way, but if you connect up to U.S. 301, you can come into Washington via the Maryland Eastern Shore and the Bay Bridge. Until it connects up to U.S. 50, 301 is pretty deserted in Maryland, so you can do just about as good a time as on the JFK Turnpike.]
That's a pretty good route if you're heading to Washington. Traffic usually isn't much of a problem once you're past the New Castle County airport or thereabouts. And speeds on US-301, for the most part, are just about as fast as on I-95.
What is *not* a good route, however, is US-301 in Maryland south of the US-50 multiplex. The 50 or so miles through Anne Arundel, Prince Georges and Charles counties must "feature" at least 100 traffic lights, none of which seem to be timed to facilitate through traffic. It's too bad, since once you're over the Potomac River bridge into Virginia, US-301 is a fine route all the way to the I-95 junction. If something could be done about the Maryland stretch, it would be an excellent alternative to I-95 and the "Mixmaster."
Agreed. But at least it had a Wal*Mart so I could buy a wiper blade (the driver's side blade picked the start of the rainstorm to self-destruct).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[But at least it (US-301 in Maryland) had a Wal*Mart so I could buy a wiper blade (the driver's side blade picked the start of the rainstorm to self-destruct).]
Oh, no! You've just committed the unpardonable sin of admitting that you went to a Wal*Mart. Why, by going there, you contributed to the demise of all those friendly little shops that used to be a fixture of Main Street America. If you'd wanted to be politically correct, you should have driven right past that horrid Wal*Mart until you got to Joe's Auto Parts, staffed by kindly old Joe himself.
Of course, in that you were in a rainstorm without a functioning wiper, you might have run someone over while looking for Joe's Auto Parts. But rest assured that the victim's sacrifice would have been for a noble cause.
How true - and I will admit that I don't particularly like going there. I actually stopped at an auto parts store (a Parts Plus affiliate) and he was out of the particular blade I needed (my Windstar uses a different size blade for each wiper) so he suggested the Wal*Mart at the next light. Of course, my wife liked the suggestion since it gave her an excuse to stop in the yarn department.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That toll on the Delaware Tpk is completely optional. Here's what you do. Comming north you get off at Elkton and travel north into Delaware. After crossing the border you make a right at the SECOND big intersection. You'll go up and over the Amtrak NEC and then you'll come to another big intersection just south of the UofD stadium. Make a right there and get back on I-95 going north at the interchange. Do these steps in opposite order to avoid the toll going south.
True - I'm aware of that detour - but is it worth the extra 10 minutes and the aggravation to save two bucks? Not to me it's not. When I'm on that stretch of road I'm in a hurry and, even though I'll complain about the toll, my time is worth more than the two bucks.
Just to aggravate the toll collectors, though, I usually try and have a $2 bill for them, or else a pair of Susans.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I use US 6, the Palisades Interstate Parkway, and the George Washington Bridge to get from NY 17 to NYC. I get to fill up in New Jersey (there's a Sunoco with decent prices right on the highway, although it tends to be understaffed) and I bypass the big toll delays.
OK, how about this one for toll avoiding -- From Highway 17 take U.S. 6, the Bear Mountain Bridge and Bear Mountain Parkway, U.S. 202, the Taconic/Spain Brook Parkway, N.Y. 100 and then I-87 down into the Bronx.
The Bear Mountain toll is cheaper than the GW or Tappan Zee, though the route actually works better going out of the city towards the Catskills. (It's amazing how many routes you can figure out when you get sick of taking the same road between New York and Syracuse all the time)
Yeah, I've taken that route. Scenic and cheap but slow. (Not as cheap as it seems, though, since you don't get to fill up in New Jersey.)
I've never used it heading north, as the GWB-PIP route is much faster and cheaper (thanks to the gas).
I know how you feel about searching out alternate routes between NYC and Syracuse. I've taken probably a few dozen different routes between NYC and Ithaca.
[I've seen so many people be so wasteful over the last year or so, that I think the american public, by and large, needs another gas shortage to knock some sense into them.]
You're right about wastefulness, but I fear that a gasoline shortage, or even a major price rise, could do a great deal of damage to the economy. I have all-too-vivid memories of the recession of the early 1990's. At the time, I lived in Connecticut, which was hit harder than almost anywhere else in the country - indeed, the state, or at least parts of it, have never fully recovered. One particular anecdote sticks in my mind. The manager of a McDonald's said in a newspaper interview that because he was required by company policy to accept job applications regardless of any openings, he had accumulated a stack of applications 15 inches thick. I could related more stories, but you get the point. In any event, having seen the devastation that double-digit unemployment causes, I'd much rather see people wasting fuel while tootling around in their Suburbans and Excursions.
Kind of hard to ignore a 6' x 4' (and growing) black splotch on your lawn where the oil was seeping to the surface. You want YOUR kids to play on that lawn? I sure as hell don't!
Besides, when the next inspection came around (dunno about Jersey, but in NYC, oil tanks and burners get inspected by the FD, and a permit is required) they would have discovered the problem. And if you don't take care of the issue immediately, it becomes a bigger headache later on.
-Hank
My tank dates to 1937 - fortunately, it's still good. I have tank insurance, though, so if and when I get stuck with a problem it will only cost me $500.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Homeowners should convert to gas. It's a better system and you won't have to deal with the miserable local oil companies and their surly
employees. I am one of those majority people in a detached house (24' x 36' ranch), just replaced my 40 year old gas furnace with a new 80% efficiency gas unit. I keep it at 68º to save even more money. Best way to heat a house, cleaner and safer than oil despite the oil industry's 'fear' advertising campaign.]
Gas may indeed be better, but it's not available everywhere. I live in a 35-year-old residential subdivision in central/eastern Suffolk County, and although it's fairly densely populated, we have no gas service. Many other parts of Long Island are similarly "gas-less." Only in the past five or so years has there been sufficient pipeline capacity to make gas service a widespread option on Long Island and in other parts of the northeast, not long enough for gas mains to have been laid in many existing streets.
I agree to an extent, the current price situation is due to OPEC manipulation of the price of oil. so diplomatic efforts to encourage a moderation in the price are "OK" furthermore, the petroleum reserve was set up to help the market deal with price fluctuations by buying oil when prices are low (boosting demand) and selling when prices are high (boosting supply) However agressive regulation which is badly needed in other sectors of the economy, probably would do more harm than good. it is in the best interest of those who advocate corporate globalism to moderate the price of oil anyway, as soverign democracies still hold considerable power on the world stage, the time is not yet ripe to gouge the NewSerfs of the erstwhile industrialized world.
You needn't have wasted so much of your valuable typing time with this long commentary.
The English have long had a brief phrase for the attitude:
"I've got mine, Jack, F*ck you."
Except the English don't adopt an air of high moral superiority and personal grievance when they say it.
Now, now Paul. Don't take offense. It's just that we transit riders don't get to eat crow too often. Oil shorages and blizzards are about it.
And I can tell you, being in the minority does not pay politically. I fully expect the bulk of the baby boom to raise by FICA tax to 22 percent and cancel my retirement when I reach age 62. So let me gloat on my train ride for a month or two.
Nobody holds a gun to your head and makes you buy a car that gets 8mpg.
IMHO, gasoline is cheap even at $2. Nobody forces you to buy that big Navigator. Don't like paying for gas? Get something that gets decent mileage.
Otherwise, shut up and deal with it.
As far as home heating, the basics of sealing up a house, replacing that 40 year old burner, and saving energy should be so well known by now as to not bear repeating.
{Plug}
Switch to natural gas, it's clean, quiet, less of a hassle, and more efficient.
{End plug - I own stock in Bug!}
Interesting aside - My friend Tony once got his hands on an acient Bell and Howell Filmosound 16mm projector. The kind with the 2 power cords and the tug a lug speaker. We needed *something* to test it with, so he borrowed a movie on energy conservation from the 1970's. That was a blast from the past (not to mention a Polyester fashion show!)
(Energy conservation movie from the 1970s).
Yes, those were the days. I does seem out of fashion in this boom, doesn't it? Transit ridership is up nonetheless.
I kind of reminds me of my biggest health problem, and that of many Americans. What happens when you can afford to eat as much as you want, and more than is good for you? You're always battling excess weight. And what happens when people can afford to drive as much as they want? You drown in traffic.
New houses are better built for energy efficiency than they were in the 1950s, but the square footage! Do you really need to heat, cool, clean and insure all of that? I attended a part in Fort Greene last night, and the ceilings in that Victorian era mansion were so high I suggested a basketball hoop. That kind of massive space went out of fashion for 80 years or so, but the Gilded Age seems to be back. Employment in domestic service is also up, as it would have to be.
[New houses are better built for energy efficiency than they were in the 1950s, but the square footage! Do you really need to heat, cool, clean and insure all of that? I attended a part in Fort Greene last night, and the ceilings in that Victorian era mansion were so high I suggested a basketball hoop. That kind of massive space went out of fashion for 80 years or so, but the Gilded Age seems to be back. Employment in domestic service is also up, as it would have to be.]
In fact, the average square footage of new houses has increased by at least one-third in the past ten years. Needless to say, the supply of land hasn't increased. So what you tend to see today are big houses shoehorned into small lots. How anyone would want that is totally beyond me.
I agree. Out in my neck of the woods, there is a booming community just to the south, Highlands Ranch. The houses are generous sized and are, in your own words, shoehorned next to each other. Very little yard space. It's great if you don't like to mow the lawn, but if you have claustrophobia, fuhgedaboudit.
I say they made the decision, live with the consequences. I drive a car that was designed where Gasoline costs $4 a gallon. Sure you can buy a trendy SUV built for places where gasoline costs less than bottled water. That's a decision. Make it, live with it. As far as home heating oil... My parents live in rural upstate new york. There is no natural gas available. Your choices for heating are Oil and Electric. They use oil. They buy a plan from the oil company that provides insurance against price fluctuations for a very modest price. Ok, it requires some financial planning because you need to pay up front. People who don't do something like that are making a decision. They should live with the consequences.
I have no sympathy what so ever for truckers. They hog the road, drive like nuts and drive the railroads out of bussniness. If all the truckers loose their jobs I'll say great, put 'em to work rebuilding the rail system.
Many, many truckers are perfectly friendly and respectable people who know how to drive their vehicles responsibly, and they do so. It is only the small percentage of drivers that taint the public's perception of the industry as a whole. And it is the mass media that highlights that small percentage.
Seeing that we know mass transit has many untrue negative stereotypes, it would be somewhat hypocritical to pass on negative stereotypes of other modes of transportation. Besides, all of your comments could be easily applied to the majority of private car drivers on the road.
Many trucks get their cargo from intermodal rail yards, so both truckers and railroads work together to deliver freight.
[But others now want emergency action on their behalf -- diesel subsidies for truckers, release of stored petroleum for home heating, etc. etc. Do they deserve help? Or will we all be better off in the
long run if prices remain this high, and choices are made accordingly?
For my own part, since I live in a gas-fueled rowhouse with a modern furnace and an electronic timed thermostat, I only pay about $500 per year for heat. And I drive so little, and in a Saturn wagon, the price of gasoline is not a problem. On the other hand, living in the city imposes certain costs on me -- parochial school tuition due to the lousy schools, high insurance costs, high taxes to pay for welfare, etc. No one seems in the mood to help me with those. So I say "free market, deal with it."]
It's hard for me to decide. In almost all cases I prefer to let the free market prevail, even if that results in a few localized hardships. But the heating oil situation might be an exception. These recent price run-ups have put a dent in my wallet, that's for sure. I've got an oil bill of almost $300 that'll have to come out of my next paycheck, while last winter there never was a bill over about $175. But at least I can afford this - many people cannot. If gasoline more than doubled in price, as heating oil has, it would be easier for people to adjust - let's face facts, most people, me included, drive a lot more than is strictly necessary. On the other hand, there's only so much that people can save on heating oil. Turning down the thermostat doesn't produce any dramatic savings. Heating oil assistance programs are chronically underfunded and usually can help only the truly destitute. So yes, under these circumstances, I would favor releasing stored petroleum.
Because you are loath to interfere in the free market normally, I'll have to take that objection seriously. In theory, the government could be more active in the marketplace, buying to prop up low prices and selling to tamp them down. The problem is, in theory that's the way agricultural price supports were supposed to work, and you know what happened there.
Heat is a necessity, and you can't be without it. But won't tamping down the price reduce the incentive to conserve, or switch two and develop other options? Its the same problem as welfare: you don't want to let people starve, but paying them to do nothing dulls the incentive to work.
[Heat is a necessity, and you can't be without it. But won't tamping down the price reduce the incentive to conserve, or switch two and develop other options?]
In theory, yes. Yet I would make an exception in the present situation because the price increases have been so dramatic in such a short time. Releasing stored petroleum wouldn't make oil so cheap that no one would bother to conserve. At best, prices would drop to something approaching historical market levels from the present stratospheric levels. Incentives to conserve would still exist. Another point is that there's only so much conservation that can be done; more-efficient burners, better insulation and lower thermostats won't make any dramatic changes. As far as switching to gas is concerned, that simply isn't an option for many people in this area.
Talking about oil heat it is funny. I was paying very cheap rates buying COD oil with no contract for the past 5 years. (Since I replaced my boiler) Never had any trouble getting service and paid $.50 this past summer. Then two weeks ago my boiler had a puff back sending fumes into my house and also carbon monixide levels went up a little. Well at 2:00 AM just try to get someone to your house without a contract. It was 20 degrees out with a great fear of my pipes freezing & bursting. The non oil company servicemen I was using didn't even answer the phone. I finally got Sloman's to come with a large deposit and a promise to sign a contract!! They had me by the b--ls and I was forced to sign a 5 yr contract. Three days later the truck came- $2.199 per gallon!!!! Thank G-d I didn't need much, my tank was pretty full. Well at least in 2005 I could go back to COD oil!!!
I don't want you to feel that I'm happy at your misery, Jeffrey, but you've made me glad I've kept my oil supplier (Park Avenue Fuel Oil--Babylon-based) for three decades.
I haven't paid less than about $1.00 since the last oil crisis, but they're there when the heat goes off at 2 a.m., they give me 10 cents off market rates, and a free service contract. I've stuck with them since the time years ago when they came and fixed the burner in my girlfriend's house (no contract) as a favor and didn't even charge me or her for the call.
Sometimes, loyalty breeds loyalty.
I hope Slomin's proves good for you and they don't take advantage of the fact you're locked in for five years.
We have Slomin's too. While the prices always were somewhat higher than what you'd get from the COD suppliers (whether that's still the case with this hyperinflation, I'm not sure), it sure help having someone to call if there's a problem. We called them a couple of months ago when our hot water heater bit the dust, and even though it was a Sunday night a serviceman arrived within an hour. I shudder to think what that service call would have cost without a service contract.
My house is still using its origional 1941 Lennox forced air system. In Camden county there is a giant oil supplier called Morfield and most people buy from them. However, my family has been using a smaller mom & pop outfit called Olt Brothers for the last 25 years. The price is not bad and they send a guy out to do preventive service about once a year.
In NYC we have 1,200 schools for 1.1 Million Students (most schools some offices) most of them heated by Oil. There are about 230 heated by Coal (with special excemption from the 70's clean air act), some very few by Natural Gas and even fewer by City Steam.
This high prices are going to put a big dent in the fuel budget for years to come.
Most gas comapnies have plans to help people install modern gas furnaces for home heat. As for rice burners and SUV's let them pay the market rate for gas, or add some taxes for the damage that cars do to the environment and add it to funds needed to build reliable convenient transit systems.
;<)
CLICK HERE FOR PHOTO OF CRASH
Courtesy of the Washington Post
Is that the way that the bumpers at train terminals are supposed to work? I was under the impression that they just stopped the train, but apparently the lead car was wedged a few feet into the air. Quite amazing what a lot of momentum will do...
If I was standing behind the bumper when the train crashed, it would've scared the living $!*% out of me.
No lead car. The car (5049) is a two section, three truck articulated.
NTSB is still investigating, the car is (as of 11PM news) still at BWI, and is supposed to be moved to "a secure facility" (TV comment, North Avenue to all of us) after midnight. Either the car will be towed by 814, the CLRL's diesel, or towed by another LRV, but isolated electrically. I'll try to find out exactly how by my contacts. The car was rerailed this morning, and has coupler damage on the "A" end, plus skirt damage. Nothing the shop can't fix.
TV news has interviewed the "Oh, I'm now scared to ride the Light Rail." folks. Makes for good TV copy.
The picture wouldn't come up on my browser but compared to some of the damage inflicted on LRVs and Type 7s here in Boston in rear-enders, this sounds mild. The good news on the Boston wrecks is that the body absorbed most of the impact, preventing serious injuries or deaths from telescoping or crushing. The operator of the moving car was usually the most seriously injured. The bad news is that the body sections are beyond repair after such an impact.
5049 was rerailed yesterday afternoon, and other than possible truck frame damage (the truck did detach from the body) and coupler damage the only damage seems to be sheet metal. More details will come out after the full inspection @ North Avenue.
One of the earlier posts in this thread inquired about how the end-of-track bumper behaved in the impact. I was surprised also to see that the bumper had lifted up. If the train had been going much faster, the bumper would have vaulted the car body into the air. I don't think that is the intended design.
The car did override the bumper. The truck center pin sheared and the body ended up over the bumper, which was pushed somewhat. The truck remained on the rails, with the motor cables sheared. The center truck and "B" end truck remained in place and on the track.
My guess is that the bumper is designed to move back a little bit, so that it absorbs some of the shock of the collision. Because if it didn't, then it would be like running into a brick wall, and that would cause more injuries. Again, I'm only guessing. I wouldn't be suprised if it worked exactly like it was intended
Since energy is always conserved, it has to be dissipated somehow. Maybe lifting part of the train up into the air is the most efficient way to do so.
Does anyone remember the old Pitkin Avenue El? I seem to be the only person I know who grew up in Brooklyn that remembers the El and actually rode on it until it was torn down I think in 1957 (boy did those tracks sway something awful)....It ran from at least Broadway Junction to Lefferts Blvd. It may have started in downtown Brooklyn (or was that the old Myrtle Ave El)...I think..and all was torn down except for what became the elevated extension of the A train out of Euclid Avenue to either Rockaway or Lefferts Blvd. I also seem to remember that the Grant Avenue station was brand new in the late fifties and was built as an intermediate stop before the above grond tracks began.
Would someone, anyone confirm these ramblings! I would be grateful...
That sounds like the Fulton Avenue El after Broadway Junction. The current J/Z line takes over Fulton Ave at that point. Pitkin Ave then went into Liberty Ave and ended at Lefferts Blvd. The connection to the IND was made in 1956, when Grant Ave opened so 1957 sounds about the right time to tear it down. (By the way, I never rode it, I was born in 59!)
Joe: What you are referring to is the Contract IV eastward extension of the BRT/BMT Fulton Street El from the City Line (Grant Av) Terminal to Lefferts Avenue(Blvd). It opened for service on September 25,1915. The portion between Rockaway Avenue and 80 Street was closed on April 27, 1956 when the IND took over the service from 80 Street to Lefferts.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The portion that still exists is Dual Contracts built and matches the Jamaica Avenue El in terms of architecture. Stops at 80th-Hudson, 88th-Boyd, Rockaway Boulevard, 104th-Oxford, 111th-Greenwood and Lefferts Boulevard.
Grant Avenue (underground) opened in 1956. Euclid and such opened in 1948.
There is ONE little stub section at Van Sinderen and Pitkin Avenue - it starts to curve east then it abruptly ends. The "S" curve of the northbound "L" train goes right under it.
I was born in 1954 and I never got to experience the Pitkin Avenue El.
Pity, it had some mean curves between Chesnut and Crescent Sts. One of them looked to be no more radius than maybe 150 feet.
Wayne
Wayne, are you sure that stub isn't from the Sneidiker Av El, one block East of Van Sinderin? I might be wrong though.
no. The "stub" runs paralell with the Canarsie bound L track once it leaves Atlantic Ave/Van Sinderen, rising slowly until it banks sharply. Once it has made it's curve, it crosses over the one remaining track coming from the Sneideker Ave. leg of the el.
This is all scheduled to be demolished soon. I hope people have pictures.
I managed to snap a picture of the stub last fall as our train approached it. Unfortunately, it came out a bit blurry - must have shaken my camera.
Don't worry, Steve - I've got you covered. Five good, clear shots taken from the front of #4414 sit right here in front of me.
Wayne
Funny thing - that was one of two photos in that roll which came out blurred. The other was at Wilson Ave., but that was because I didn't focus properly on the tilework.
I've got you covered there too! I now have a total of 28 pictures of Wilson, both levels, with and without trains (trains only at upper level), one for each color in the mosaics (there are 28 in all).
Wayne
It might have been a case of camera shake as well, depending on how long the shutter had to stay open. If you recall, I didn't use flash.
The Franklin Ave. shuttle pics came out OK.
The Pitkin El will not be demolished until the Canarsie L Line's northbound track is re-routed onto the western section of the Van Sinderin part of the structure at Atlantic AVe.
This probably won't happen for another year at least.
BTW, track P-1 has been back in use for about a month now. The section between Broadwy-East NY and Atlantic had rail replacement and new wiring for CBTC ops during the latter part of 99.
Doug aka BMTman
I live 2 stops from Atlantic. I do plan to take pics of the section. This would be a nice SubTalk Field Trip
3TM
I rode the el from the old Grant Ave station to Eastern Parkway on several occasions in the late 1940's and early 1950's. The original station at Grant and Liberty was an el station. That part of the line that I rode including stations at Crescent, Chestnut, Montauk, Linwood, VanSiclen, Pennsylvania and Hinsdale all had the old wood platforms. I would compare the ride to riding on the old Lexington Ave el. Service was supplied by the 1300 series BU's or gate cars as I prefer to call them. My dentist had his office on the second floor of a building over a drugstore on the northwest corner of Grant and Liberty. From the dentist's chair I could see the fronts of the westbound trains, as they stopped at the Grant Ave Station. The front of the lead car couldn't have been more thrn 30 feet from that dentist's chair.
This line used the C types almost exclusively until it's demise in '56.
Multisectionals on the rush hour 14th St.-Fulton St. service also ran there.
From 1940 (when the portion of the Fulton St. El west of Rockaway Ave was abandoned) until 1950 (ditto for the Lexington Ave El), there was a "Fulton-Lexington service" which used gate cars (the C-types wouldn't fit on the Lexington Ave. El due to the door sill extensions which made them 10' wide).
-- Ed Sachs
Thank You, Ed! I'm glad that someone else remembers! The C-type was used between Lefferts Blvd and Rockaway Ave. The 1300's were used between Grant Ave and Bridge-Jay St. The line was known as the Fulton-Lex Line. The last stop was Grant Ave for this service. I am not sure that the service ended with the closure of the Lexington Ave el. I think that they maintained a type of shuttle service between Grant Ave and Eastern Parkway even after the Lexington Ave line was closed. There was a center track between Grant and Hudson, which was used for reversing and layup of extra cars.
Believe me! I was there and I rode them, and they were 1300's.
I'll bet the conductors on the gate cars made "watch the gap" part of their standard vocabulary, or whatever they may have said.
I believe their words were "Watch your step getting off!"
The Pitkin Avenue El was two track structure with round cast iron columns (in the street) utilizing three rather deep modified warren truss girders. The outermost girder was slightly outside the outermost running rails of the tracks, with the center girder between the tracks. The cross ties were extra deep 12" x 12". This was similar to the Fulton Street El in downtown Brooklyn, although that portion of the El had columns in the curbs. The station houses were of the same architectural design (rather ugly little huts) as the downtown section, with one staircase on each side of the street. Grant Avenue, Pennsylvania Avenue and Hinsdale Street had center island platforms with underpasses similar to the original arrangement for the Jamaica El over Fulton Street between Alabama Avenue and Crescent Street. In general, the Pitkin Avenue El was a very narrow structure similar to the Lexington Avenue El (Brooklyn).
Does anyone know a Derrick Sherry? He was a friend of Father Cosgrove, and my friend wants to get in touch with him. I thought maybe he posted on this board. Thanks.Train Buff Headquarters
Last week, I was speaking to one of my colleagues in the Delaware Valley Transit Users Group, and he claimed that he attended an IEEE vehicular technology meeting at Drexel University about the SIRT. He told me that the SIRT would be uprgraded to cab signalling (ATP?) very soon. As a response, I asked him if the SIRT would receive any R-143s, and he did not know what I was talking about. I told him that they were an order of new cars, and he said that the SIRT would keep the same equiptment (R-44Ss). Does anyone know any more about this.
When the R-44Ss reach the end of their lifetimes, will the SIRT go back to 60' cars, or will they stick with 75'. I don't see why they would have troble with 75' because the line is above ground, and as far as I know does not get too crowded (or does it)?
Well, lessee...
SIR is going to be getting an all-new signal system that will allow bi-directional traffic. It's been planned for several years; new facing-point cross-overs were installed in the early 90's in preperation for this (the switches are mostly hand throw, but there are a few spring switches; Tottenville and St. George terminals have automatic switches controlled from Tower B.
AFAIK, the R44 cars will be staying for the near future, and will have the cab signalling equipment installed. Ther is a rumor that we may get M7s as an add-on to the LIRR order, but I somehow doubt we'll see them without a return of fare collection on the trains, due to the vandalism problem.
-Hank
Furthermore, prior to the R-44 add-ons débuting on the S.I.R.T. in 1972, they had the 67-foot Standard wannabes which were built by Standard Steel in 1925 (question: were they the “Standard” that ultimately made up the Pullman-Standard concern which built some cars in the R1-9 series from the mid-’30’s to 1940, including the R7A car which was rebuilt as the R10 prototype, as well as the infamous R46 cars in 1974-78?). So I doubt S.I.R. would use anything shorter than 67 feet in that context.
The current plans is to have a signal system like Metro North which is different then the one the R143's will use. I posted awhile back on it when I had the details in front of me, can't strain the brain to recall it now. I'll see if I can find the post.
Regarding Standard Steel of Burnham, PA:
The last time I checked (maybe 1993)they were still in business. I'm certain a brief web check or Thomas Business Register could answer any questions on corporate lineage.
[Regarding Standard Steel of Burnham, PA:
The last time I checked (maybe 1993)they were still in business.]
They're still listed in Switchboard.com.
But is that the same Standard Steel as the railroad car company?
I thought Standard sold their rail car divsion to the Pullman Company before Pullman shut down its rail passenger car operations.
You know, that might just be the answer. . . .
Better question: is that the same as the PRESSED STEEL Car Company, makers of such wonderful trains as BMT Standards (2600-2899 + the trailers), D-Type Triplexes, R-9s (1702-1802), Hi-V Motors and Lo-V Flivver trailers, Staten Island ME-1, PATH Black Cars (Class A, B, D and Pennsy MP-38), Illinois Central Heavyweight (1926 class), probably many, many others...
Wayne
No. Pressed Steel and Standard Steel were two different companies building cars at the same time.
Sorry, Standard Steel and Pressed Steel were two different concerns. Pressed Steel also made some of the R-6 cars.
I thought that was Pullman-Standard (they built the R-6-2) I could be wrong, though...
Wayne
My sister just came back from Chicago, and she brought back two transit cards. They look just like NYC Metrocards, with the little hole and the cut off corner. Are they made by the same company? What company is it?
Also done by CUBIC. Don't try them in a TA reader, they don't work (tried it)
-Hank
Yes, the Cubic Corp. has fareboxes & turnstiles in a number of cities around the World, e.g. Miami, Houston, Washington D.C., London, Hong Kong, and Chicago.
Similar looking boxes are mfg. by GFI, i.e. Hartford, NJ Transit.
BYW, We had a visitor from Chicago at the MC swap meet. He was trading CRT for TA cards with many of us.
Mr t__:^)
My aunt says you dip your card both on buses and the L in Chicago. I told her that in New York, you dip on a bus and swipe on the subway.
Yes, NYC went for "swipe" thru turnstiles because you can swipe faster then you can dip ... provided you don't have to "swipe again". The Smart Cards (arrived at Washington & comming to Chicago & NYC) are even faster I-F you only have to go NEAR the reader vs. having to place it INSIDE a docking station.
Mr t__:^)
the dip in london is a pass through you dip it in and it comes out on the other side after you pass through, and it goes the other way to exit to see if you paid the correct amount for your trip
This afternoon, for the THIRD afternoon in a row, I went through with such a clean motion, I held my hand still, and moved through as if the turnstile didn't exist.
Remember those complaints three years ago about how Metrocard readers sucked? Well, now we know that people just weren't used to them. It's a great thing they got swipe slots instead of that crap on the bus.
Glad you can manage it that easily - maybe it's just because I'm not all that accustomed to them, but I prefer Washington's in-the-end-out-the-top arrangement.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
London has a simular in-the-end-out-the-top arrangement. A person never has to break stride as the card is waiting at it's top exit, ready to be picked up as the paddles open for entry or exit.
Oh, please, no. I like being forced to make an explicit action (swipe, dip, whatever) to pay the fare. I don't want a few extra fares deducted because I'm milling around the turnstiles or farebox. This isn't E-ZPass, where cars only move in one direction.
Car 1914 still have the Pelham stickers on it. Spotted this morning at Penn Av..........
3TM
1914 has been connected to a whole bunch of 2000s on the 3 line. She's the 3rd car towards New Lots Ave. Saw her there last Tuesday.
R36Gary
On Sunday, I was operating on the 5 shortline from 149/Grand Concourse to bowling Green. At the same time all southbound 6 trains were running express, ON THE EXPRESS TRACK, from Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge. The local tracks were taped off in the morning. By mid afternoon, some of the tape was gone at Union Sq, and in those places, stood people waiting for a train that wasn't coming. They were there as I went south and were still there as I went north, by which time 3 or 4 locals went by on the express track, all to the tune of the a tape loop explaining the service change.
My question: How long do you suppose these people waited for a downtown local? 5am today, when service resumed?
the same thing happened to me waiting for the A train ant 42 nd street station to FAR ROCKWAY !!
then you have to WAIT UNTIL 3 30 pm ??????? WHAT ???
All the more reason they need to have another train preferably the E going to either Lefferts or Far Rockaway because the Frequency to those destinations aren't satifying to the customers.
Frank D
You see that all the time. The first Polo Ground Tour we did had the D running EXPRESS in Manhattan and Bronx uptown. Needless to say it would pullin on the center track and people would ignore it. I too always wondered how many trains they let go buy before lighting strikes.
How does one get on/off at a local stop during this type of situation?
you take the express past your stop and have to take the local back to your stop....
Or take a local in the opposite direction to the first express stop and chenge there.
Or walk.
Very carefully??
I once had a dream in which I was on a southbound A train which had left 59th St., but instead of picking up speed at 50th St. the way it normally does, it slowed to a crawl, then stopped on the express track at the station in the same spot a local train would. Here's the crazy part: all of a sudden, the doors opened up, and people jumped off down to the track, walked across the local track, and vaulted onto the platform. No, nobody was electrocuted or run over.
That scenario actually happened once in real life, except the doors remained closed. After all, it was a train of R-10s...
Last summer I was waiting for an F train at Bergen Street, I believe it was. Three G and F trains buzzed into the station from the other side while we were kept waiting. It took close to a half-hour before we were visited by an F train heading for 4th Avenue where we would change trains for a Sea Beach to Coney Island. I got so pissed off I almost considered running over to 4th Avenue. After all, it was only about two miles away, a stone's throw for a runner like myself. The only reason I didn't was because it was humid as hell outside and I would have sweated to beat the band and would have been uncomfortable when we got to Coney Island. But I was tempted. It helped to partly ruin my day. I asked the conductor what happened, but he just shrugged and said there had been a small delay "back there" without elaborating. Fortunately, I kept my tongue.
I've seen people wait on platforms where the track has been completely removed and all of the broken concrete and rotten ties are in a pile in the invert.
Maybe they thought they were waiting for a bus. That one has to take the cake. LOL
J: I just figured out that's why John Rocker hates New York. He was probably the moron you saw on that platform. Hard to believe but I guess there are people like that.
Plus if you stayed on the F, it would have been faster and more scenic, and you could have taken the Sic I mean Sea Beach back.
I don't see how. The F stops at all the stations, too. But I shouldn't really complain because it could have been worse---a lot worse. I could have gotten stuck on the Brighton Bitch, errrr, I mean, well, you know what I mean. Gottya back on that one pal.
Not really, from where you were how would you get to the Brighton Line unless you went back to the City, by the time you did that you could have taken a bus to Coney Island. B 75 to B 68
You mean you didn't tell that conductor you were the Sea Beach man?!?-)
Steve: Not that time. Besides, if I told a F man that I was the Sea Beach man he probably would told me to hit the road, or worse, ask me to disembark. Then again, knowing how elegant that title of mine is, maybe he would have apologized profusely and have asked for my forgiveness. I'll have to remember your advice next time.
The train stops parralel to the station, the doors open, and you take a walk across the tracks and climb up onto the platform.
Just kidding. Someone else answered it.
Whew, I thought the doors would open while the train was passing the station, and the passengers would try to jump off and not smash into a support column.
You think I'm joking? I'm not. I think. Just kidding. On hold on I'm confused...what was I talking about?
Isn't that what the emergency brakes are for?
Yes I found that to be the Case on Saturday. At 14 Street I explained to the people on the Platform that there was NO Local service intil 5AM Monday but they still waited. On my first trip Downtown there were people on the southbound Platform at 23 Street.
Yesterday on the G I had one character who screamed at the top of his lungs that he waited for two hours for a train. I tried to explain that the trains were running on the Queens bound track. He called me a liar and it took a train "wrong railing" to convince him. I finally got him on the next train (thank goodness!) I was ready to call the police- he was so obnoxious.
(Yes- I had the track workers keep an eye on myself and the customer.)
This string of posts on waiting for trains that never come has given me a sudden insight into what Eugene Ionesco's play Waiting for Godot was all about. Godot Stands for G train or D train or T train. The two characters have crossed the yellow tape closing off the platforms that will not have service, due to necessary trackwork.
While I am wasting people's time-- I had an idea yesterday how to discourage people from crossing the yellow tape. Tell them that there was earlier a poison gas attack on that platform and that the MTA was waiting for the poison gas to sufficiently dilute itself. If they insist on crossing the platform, tell them to notify you if they notice any burning in the eyes, or bleeding from the mouth. Then assure them that the Mortuary wagon from the Coroner's Office will be summoned immediately. Further warn them that they are being filmed by closed circuit cameras operated by the Department of Defense, who are interested in observing the effects of the gas on human behavior.
Paul, as a cop I must tell you that won't work. People will cross the line anyway, I guarantee you!!!
Jeff, I don't mean to question your extensive experience working with real people, but all I know that in Close Encounters, when that Army General had to clear the landing zone of people, he spread rumors of poison gas and the area was cleared. How about this as a compromise? Arrange for several conductors on limited duty to be dressed up in space suits with gas masks over their heads, and maybe for extra authenticity--- have them drag around the dead carcasses of several swine who had been grazing on the filth between the tracks.
Pigs are much smarter than to eat what's between the tracks. We might not be very hygenically minded animals, like cats, but we're smarter than dogs. Even George Orwell knew this.
Good God Jeff: See what I started with my original blurb? After reading some of the other notes I guess my problem wasn't so unique after all. I would think, however, that there would be some way to alert stations that there is a delay a few stations back so customers don;t have to wait what seems eons for a train. Maybe they can walk or take a bus, or buy a magazine and wait, or grab a snack. Waiting and waiting for a train that doesn;t seem to come can really make a guy angry.
All Station Booths have scanners that pick up the trains and dispatchers. However many Station Agents (Not including myself) unpliug the scanner and plug in a tape deck, radio or CD (which are against the rules). If not unplugged they turn off the scanner to listen to the tape (Still against the rules). I have gone into booths to work and had to plug in the scanner. Some were erased(by being unplugged too long) and covered with a tamper proof cover (not the new ones). I have asked supervision to program the scanners and gotten "huh".
If it were up to me I'd hard wire the scanners and disconnect the off button or put them in a locked room without a key in the booth so they cant be turned off. I have gotten around the lack of scanners by either calling the tower if there is a large gap in service or by using my own personal hand scanner.
That's Beckett, not Ionesco
Last night: Queens Plaza I'm on F on express track there is an OoS E on the local and I watch all the people transfering to the local walk right on and sit down even after they anounced it was OoS
According to Today's Daily News:
Cubic says the MVMs wre designed for 30,000 transactions before needing servicing. The article says we are averaging 2500 and NYCT is thinking about a task force to decide what to do.
A city official agrees the machines are lemons. I am showing my age but I remember the first token machines- they ate your money ansd no refund given
now to my opinion: This is why we are not going away. They are too unreliable. Just today at one Station area with two machines. The computer said one machine would not take credit cards, then it also refused debit cards. The second machine was ok. In reality the machine the computer said was malfunctioning did take cards while the machien the computer said was workign refused cards.
In fact while awaiting a go ahead to oppen the gates at that station area (when the booth was ready) I suggested customer use the machines rather than wait and no one wanted the machines.
In Chicago, station agents no longer collect fares; every station has
AVMs. Unfortunately, they are also very unreliable, and worse, a few
stations only have ONE machine! The agent ends up having to let people
through for free if the machine is broken.
ummmmm more lost revenue, to be fair to the customer however it makes sense.
In New York, they'd close the station first.
It could be just me, but I'm wondering if New York's MVMs are a lot more complicated than they really need to be. The ability to use credit/debit cards is nice, and I can see why the multilingual features would come in handy in certain neighborhoods, but still...
Chicago uses the exact same farecard system as NYC, but we've had farecard vending machines at every station since the new farecards were first introduced. They only accept cash and their only language is English, but in my experience they're generally fairly reliable (although some other CTA riders may be quick to disagree.)
Maybe New Yorkers really are that much more sophisticated than us Midwesterners, but sometimes the KISS principle is still the smartest course of action.
Just my two tokens worth...
-- David
Chicago, IL
Agreed. Why the touchscreen? Wouldn't a keypad work just as well, or probably better?
Because touchscreens are actually LESS complicated. Only the buttons you need are ever displayed, and they always say exactly what they're supposed to. You don't need people to waste time reading an instruction manual alongside the machine before using.
The CTA farecard machines are about as simple as you can get, so there's no need for a touch screen when 99% of all transactions require the user to press only one button.
Step 1: Stick your card into the machine
Step 2: Put in as much money as you wish.
Step 3: Press the "Vend" button, and your card is returned to you with the added value.
If at any time you wish to cancel the transaction, press the "Cancel" button. If you want audio instructions, press the "audio" button. It can't get much less complicated than that.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Touchscreens are nice. I haven't had opportunity to use an MVM yet, but I have used Amtrak's machines with touchscreens, and they make a complex transaction fairly simple, for just the reasons Mr. Royal Island mentioned.
MetroCards are much simpler to buy than train tickets, but the many forms of accepted payment complicate the process, thus the need for touchscreens. I think it is a much-needed feature. I much prefer carrying my check card over cash. Being able to use my card to buy transit is wonderful. Many people operate this way, and this will only increase with time.
BTW, does anyone know what the main cause of breakdowns is? Is it the touchscreens? That would be interesting to know.
Touchscreens are not ADA compliant. Do the machines have a work around for someone with a sight disability?
I notice some brail on them but do not know how to get the machine to switch to that mode (not that I can read brail).
There's a headphone jack, a blind person would have to carry a set of headphones to use it. The only way I can see use with the headset is if the keypad for entering the ATM pin number was configured to replace the options on the screen. I still haven't tried it with headphones, but when I will, It'll be on my site.
Problems:
What if you want to buy a whole new card?
What if you want to buy an unlimited ride card?
What if you need change?
Plus, using credit cards with the machines is a VERY good feature. That's the big advantage (selling fun passes is not a real advantage, it's political).
What if you want to buy a whole new card?
Simply put your money into the machine and press "Vend", and it will give you a new card.
What if you want to buy an unlimited ride card?
You have to go to a neighborhood currency exchange for those, as ticket agents won't even sell them. The CTA has a long history of doing everything within their power to discourage people from using unlimited-ride cards. (Monthy passes were eliminated altogether for a time a couple years ago, until the CTA was forced by public outcry to bring them back. They brough them back, but jacked up the price to $88. Now they're down to *only* $75.) Somehow they're convinced the use of unlimited-ride cards is going to drive the agency into insolvency. Score one for New York.
However, there's no technical reason the CTA farecard machines couldn't also be used to purched unlimited-ride cards.
What if you need change?
There are change machines in the stations next to the farecard machines.
Plus, using credit cards with the machines is a VERY good feature. That's the big advantage (selling fun passes is not a real advantage, it's political).
I'll agree the ability to accept credit/debit cards would be a nice feature. But it would also be another thing to malfunction. Given a choice between a cash-only machine that works and a credit/debit machien that doesn't, then I'd choose the former.
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'd choose the latter, because if it's broken, then one can still use cash. If a particular module breaks, the whole machine doesn't go down. And the cash acceptor is more unreliable.
Metrocard refill machines will only take credit cards.
Jeez, the cash part of the transit card machine would certainly malfunction more frequently than the credit card part.
Note that the AVMs were originally supposed to be able to give change; that's why they're so big. The change machines were an afterthought, and also are the only reason that stations have to be staffed even when they are closed.
Just more proof that New York's system is much better than here. But, the reason we did away with agents accepting fares is because many were pocketing the money (or so the CTA says); in New York it is mainly for subway-bus transfers.
I'd rather have the option to still use tokens in Chicago; it's nice to be able to look in your pocket and know EXACTLY how many rides you have; unlike the transit cards, where you have to go to a station to see how much value the card has.
But touchscreens tend to be user-unfriendly. There's often quite a bit of guesswork involved in convincing it that, yes, indeed, you did mean to touch that part of the screen. Touchscreens also tend to be placed significantly higher than where humans tend to keep their hands. See gorilla arm.
I don't think a button-based MVM would be much more complicated than an ATM.
There's one problem with touchscreens and older ATMs too. If you're taller than the screen, and therefore not facing directly at it, you end up hitting the wrong things.
I'll disagree. I can't tell you how many times a certain machine at
Howard St. is out of order. And it's inexcusable that some stations
only have 1 machine (Ashland/Lake, for example), EXCEPT, of course,
the Ravenswood grade level stations, which cannot fit more than 1
machine. That's an exception I'm willing to make, although you're
probably promoting the fact that some of the most quaint stations
in the system should be torn down and replaced with ugly, lifeless
structures.
That's an exception I'm willing to make, although you're
probably promoting the fact that some of the most quaint stations
in the system should be torn down and replaced with ugly, lifeless
structures.
Outhouses are also quaint, but I don't think you'll find too many people bemoaning the development of indoor plumbing.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Believe me, David, the people who live around and use the grade level stations on the Ravenswood like them. Even though they are small, they are some of the nicest stations on the system.
I still say that most residents of Ravenswood like the old stations, and just want normal repair work done on them (such as fixing leaky roofs). You have no evidence to say that the people using those stations want them replaced.
Can anyone think of a possible government programme that could force people to use tranist. Yes...I know it would never be passes in a million billion years.
My idea is to have a very high national gas tax. However, if you spent money on alternative transportation like Trains or Busses you could recieve a 100% refund on what you spent on the new "transit" tax up to the amount you spent on the alternative transportation. For example lets say this new tax costs you $500 in extra gas costs. If you take Amtrak instead of the Airline and your ticket costs 300$ you could get a $300 refund of your "transit" tax. It like everyone would pay for transit up front and then it would be on them to cash in on it. It would effectivly force people to use transit weither they liked it or not.
I love transit, I also love cars, gasoline, combustion and more power. I feel that there is a time and place for each. The general public just needs to learn this too.
I don't see any way to force people to use transit. Most people live in places where transit does not exist, and would not be practical.
To get more people using transit, over time you have to get more people who have a choice living in dense cities. And the best way to do that is to -- have a school voucher system, and push the cost of Medicaid and welfare to the highest level of government possible.
In that case, someone moving to Newark, Buffalo or Troy would feel they have some control over their children's education. And, if the level of crime stays low, would not feel that the fact that poor people live in the same town to be an excessive burden. So there would be less incentive to flee older, more developed areas. Rising density and income might allow cities to rebuilt their transit systems. Even streetcars might come back.
Oh, you guys are too much. I have ideas that wouldn't force people to ride transit, they would want to ride transit. How, you ask?
Make riding transit fun. Get some of the retired social directors from the Catskill Mountains to train people to be social directors on the trains.
This way during the morning commute you could have cars in which calisthenics are done. Other cars would have social games like Simon Says. For those who would to improve their interpersonal skills, we could have encounter groups in which customers could explore their inner feelings. Other cars for heated political, religious, or racial discussions.
In the evening, you could have Tupperware parties, Amway parties, slumber parties where you could frolic around in your pajamas, canasta parties, and pinochle games.
With so many things going on for mass transit riders, the only advantage of using a car would be to be able to pick your nose without embarrassment. If sufficient people demanded this, we could set aside cars for nose pickers and people with excessive intestinal gas.
One way to keep people from bringing their cars into Manhatten would have them get a permit cost about $50.00 per day to use The streets say south of 59th St. That way they would use Transit Or ban private cars all together in MANHATTEN.
Actually, I believe a city in Brazil did just that - ban cars altogether. They seem to be thriving as a result.
My normally non transit friend Tony (Yes, the same one who hated the idea of takeing the MBTA from Providence to Boston, until he fell asleep on the train and had to be woken up at South Station) up thinks it's a great idea too.
I don't know why people drive into NYC. I normally only do when passing through (Bridges and tunnels are a blast). The only other times, it's because I've been out riding all day and want to vist my friend in Brooklyn.
I keep my driving in NYC restricted to driving through also. If I want to visit, I either take Amtrak from South Station, or drive to New Haven and take Metro North. But then again I am looking for an excuse to take the subway or the LIRR. I absolutely refuse to park in Downtown Boston, despite the fact that I know the back streets into and around town, and can fly in, drop someone off and zip back out in the midst of morning rush, which I do daily. The bottom line is attitude. Those who can afford to pay exorbitant fees for the priviledge of parking their cars downtown will continue to do so, and others will continue to feed meters over the limit, or accept parking tickets as a cheaper way! On their way in they sit in 12 mile traffic jams, while I slip by on the 'dangerous' side streets. Until we can change their attitudes, they won't take transit, no matter how attractive it is!
PS:
I know that as an island, access to Manhattan is more limited than that in Boston, but there is much better transit service in the neighborhoods (eccept for parts of Queens and SI) also. Park and Ride in NYC is very scarce compared to Boston, but neighborhood service makes up for this in most places - at least for residents.
"but there is much better transit service in the neighborhoods (eccept for parts of Queens and SI)"
And Bronx and Brooklyn.
No where in Boston does transit penetration equal that in Brooklyn or the Bronx. Admittedly there are gaps, but none as large as those in Boston, where some stations aren't even in populated areas!
Gerry
[I don't know why people drive into NYC. I normally only do when passing
through (Bridges and tunnels are a blast). The only other times, it's
because I've been out riding all day and want to vist my friend in
Brooklyn.]
Actually, my parents want to drive with me into Manhattan on a Sunday in June. It seems as if it may be more economical than paying the $69 that the train would cost (for 3 of us), and would probably be slightly faster (this is the SEPTA/NJT combo, not amtrak).
I'm trying to convince them that the cheapest way to get from Philadelphia to Manhattan would be to drive into Newark, or Staten Island park somewhere near PATH or the ferry, and take that into Manhattan, but they don't want to try new things. They would be more willing to spend some $$$ for parking than to get in the cheapest way.
I'd recommend Staten Island if you're coming in on a Sunday. You can park all day for free directly opposite the police station, about one block from the ferry terminal. If I'm headed in on a Sunday with at least one other person that's usually how I do it; if it's just me I'll take NJT. I do try and have my $4 day pass ahead of time, although with the advent of the MVM (one of these days I'll try one) I suppose I can buy one at South Ferry.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can also get it in Staten Island (sorry, my site is down).
Thanks, that's good to know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interstingly enough, there are MVMs in the ferry area of either terminal, but not on the SIR level is SI or down in the subway in Manhattan.
Why not park on the street? It's a Sunday -- you might even find parking in Midtown. And if you don't, go to one of the neighborhoods, where on-street parking is free. (But do the area residents a favor: try to park on the side of the street where parking won't be legal the next morning. I think Monday morning the bad side is north or west, but I may be wrong -- check the signs.)
Do people really think Manhattan residents who own cars park them in the overpriced garages in Midtown?!
You can probably find street parking in Manhattan on Sundays.
Oh, you guys are too much. I have ideas that wouldn't force people to ride transit, they would want to ride transit. How, you ask?
Make riding transit fun. Get some of the retired social directors from the Catskill Mountains to train people to be social directors on the trains.
This way during the morning commute you could have cars in which calisthenics are done. Other cars would have social games like Simon Says. For those who would to improve their interpersonal skills, we could have encounter groups in which customers could explore their inner feelings. Other cars for heated political, religious, or racial discussions.
In the evening, you could have Tupperware parties, Amway parties, slumber parties where you could frolic around in your pajamas, canasta parties, and pinochle games.
With so many things going on for mass transit riders, the only advantage of using a car would be to be able to pick your nose without embarrassment. If sufficient people demanded this, we could set aside cars for nose pickers and people with excessive intestinal gas.
ROTFLMAO.
Would you care to repeat that to the House Committee on Unamerican activities?
[I don't see any way to force people to use transit. Most people live in places where transit does not exist, and would not be practical. ]
Deprive them of their cars and I gaurantee transit would exist. The best way to force people to use transit in NY is to increase the gas tax 400% for all non-commercial vehicles and to put tolls on all the East River Bridges.
[Deprive them of their cars and I gaurantee transit would exist. The best way to force people to use transit in NY is to increase the gas tax 400% for all non-commercial vehicles and to put tolls on all the East River Bridges.]
And then transit usage would drop off, because NYC would be losing jobs by the hundreds of thousands.
I agree with the tolls on the bridges part. The CEOs in their limos wouldn't mind paying, and would enjoy the decline in traffic. The rest of us riding transit would benefit from transit improvements paid for the the revenues. One improvement could be park-n-ride parking garages, to encourage non-auto into Manhattan. The only people who would lose would be those with free parking in Manhattan -- ie. government workers with park where you please permits -- who would now have to pay something. It is possible that the rich, and Manhattan residents, may push this through someday.
A 400 percent increase in the gas tax is something else. People can take transit from Long Island to Manhattan without too much sacrifice, but suburb to suburb commuting is another matter. It is a political impossibility.
[And then transit usage would drop off, because NYC would be losing jobs by the hundreds of thousands. ]
No, the taxi drivers would be exempt from the 400% gas tax increase.
[[And then transit usage would drop off, because NYC would be losing jobs by the hundreds of thousands.]
No, the taxi drivers would be exempt from the 400% gas tax increase.]
I generally don't respond to posts with a question of my own, but I'll make an exception in this case: Are you really as dense as you seem? I will assume the answer is yes and give you a very basic Economics 101 explanation. It is a truism of today's economy that almost any business can locate almost anywhere. Very few of the businesses now located in NYC actually have to be there. Which means, of course, that if government policy makes it unattractive for businesses to be in the city, they'll be gone in a flash ... taking their jobs and tax revenues with them. Yes, it's true that the city's lately been doing a pretty good job at holding onto existing businesses and attracting new ones (although that's not always true, see today's news story about John Wiley). But this most definitely was not true just a few years ago, and there is absolutely no reason to believe that it will remain true in the future.
I agree 100% that driving into Manhattan is usually a bad idea and that transit use should be encouraged. But any efforts to discourage driving have to be carefully thought out so as to avoid angering the business community. Confiscatory gasoline taxes and bridge tolls most definitely sound like the sort of ham-handed approaches that'll lead to windfall profits for the moving companies. Parking restrictions, on the other hand, might work better. It's a complicated issue, trying to get people out of cars and into transit, and poorly thought out ideas can be a disaster.
(Parking restrictions vs. tolls)
The current policy is to use parking restrictions, rather than tolls, to discourage driving into Manhattan. New parking garages are not permitted in Manhattan south of 96th St. The thought is that if you can't park, you can't drive in.
The policy appears to have failed. What it has done is increase the value of permits to park on the street, which are the new patronage machine. It has also increased double parking. Those with power in office buildings park in the loading bays, putting delveries on the street. Through traffic is also up. In total, entering volume of vehicles is up, despite a fall in the number of legal parking spaces.
Meanwhile, the restriction on new parking hurts affluent residents of Manhattan who might want a car for occasional use outside the city, as I have one.
Add it all up, and I think the city would be better off lifting the restriction on new parking, and using tolls to keep traffic to the level the street system could support. Tolls could be higher on-peak than off. They could be higher in a boom than in a recession. If Broadway attendence fell, for example, you could just cut the tolls after 4 p.m.
use a e-z pass system to charge for the use of city steets. we can have peak and off-peak charges. also take the funds from the "street tolls" to make transit FREE.
So why should transit be free and roads be paid for? It just reverses the whole situation, and rather badly.
It's not about paying for roads vs. paying for transit.
Actually, roads and parking are already subsidized more heavily that tranbsit ever will be. Just look at the TransitChek tax incentive, which still requires employees to pay for the transit benefit, even though they would get a parking benefit from their companies free of charge just by asking.
The key is to impose a penalty based on the total cost being imposed on society, and/or offer a reward for mitigating costs to society. Driving alone in or to Manhattan exacerbates an already-serious air pollution problem, and should be discouraged; riding transit mitigates that problem, and should be encouraged.
Besides, if everybody who worked in the five boroughs drove to their jobs, much of the city would have to be torn down just to make room for the parking - meaning fewer jobs.
Of course, something like this would only work in one or two cities. And I'm sure that alot of businesses prefer cars.
[use a e-z pass system to charge for the use of city steets. we can have peak and off-peak charges]
This is similar to the system used in Singapore where cars get charged through their EZ PASS like contraptions based on the time of day and part of the city.
Wait, where would this gas tax be implemented? Throughout New York State? Then anyone driving into NYC from the west will fill up in New Jersey (wait, they already do!) while everyone elsewhere in the state is screwed -- there's no reason Syracuse residents should pay the inflated tax while Scranton residents don't.
Or would this be a nationwide tax increase? I don't have a fundamental problem with that, but as it stands there's really no efficient way to get around most of this country other than the automobile -- long distance travel, particularly.
[Or would this be a nationwide tax increase? I don't have a fundamental problem with that, but as it stands there's really no efficient way to get around most of this country other than the automobile -- long distance travel, particularly. ]
This would be a nationwide tax increase and other modes of efficient transit will be created thanks to capitalism to deal with the sudden increase car-less folks
I'd rather increase tolls than taxes. Those driving into a dense urban area (ie. Manhattan) during the day are using a scarce resource, and should pay both to maintain that resource and to compensate those who give it up and use transit.
But who is disadvantaged by someone driving down a rural road in the middle of the night? There is pollution, but I'm hoping the fuel cell breakthrough will cut down on that.
[But who is disadvantaged by someone driving down a rural road in the middle of the night? There is pollution, but I'm hoping the fuel cell breakthrough will cut down on that. ]
I agree that rural mass trasit should be the lowest priority of our increase mass transit proposals. But rural mass transit works! See rural South America where most are too poor to own cars but can easily afford the local (very local) bus to town. To further this end we should implement both higher and more tolls (first) and higher gas taxes (second).
[I agree that rural mass trasit should be the lowest priority of our increase mass transit proposals. But rural mass transit works! See rural South America where most are too poor to own cars but can easily afford the local (very local) bus to town. To further this end we should implement both higher and more tolls (first) and higher gas taxes (second).]
Yes, and maybe the United States can be just as prosperous as rural South America!
Duh.
[Yes, and maybe the United States can be just as prosperous as rural South America! ]
Yet another example of your brainwashing. Mass Transit does not equal poor. Mass Transit does not cause people to be poor. It's true that South America isn't as fortunate as the US but that is certainly not caused by their use of buses or trains to get from rural to urban. Even the developing world can be an example to the US, just as the US is not always an example for the developing world.
No, the fact that they are poor is why they use mass transit, they have no other choice. Rural mass transit is a failure, the only people who use it are those too young, too old or too disabled.
I realize that posting with that handle doens't make me very credible, but you can see the play on words attempted.
[This would be a nationwide tax increase and other modes of efficient transit will be created thanks to capitalism to deal with the sudden increase car-less folks]
Mass transit simply isn't an option in most parts of the country. Outside of NYC and a surprisingly small number of other urban areas, residential and employment patters are too dispersed geographically for mass transit to make sense.
(Outside NYC and a few other cities, patterns are too dispersed for transit to make sense).
Tell that to Al Gore. 50 years ago, the cities were taxed to build an auto-based road infrastructure for the suburbs. Now, Al Gore wants to tax us again to build a transit system for the suburbs.
Don't consider me anti-transit when I say I'm in favor of the elimination of all federal transportation spending. Rather have local taxes, fares, and tolls, and pay for our own stuff with our own money. Unfortunatley, I'm represented by people who love having the federal government take a dollar from me, then give them 80 cents to hand back to me, for which I'm expected to be grateful.
[Unfortunatley, I'm represented by people who love having the federal government take a dollar from me, then give them 80 cents to hand back to me, for which I'm expected to be grateful. ]
I certainly don't mind giving a little extra to help my brothers around the country. Here in NY we have a lot more than other parts of the US. To keep this country great, we have to help those less fortunate. I proud to get 80 cents back on my dollar because that extra 20 cents is helping someone who really needs it which helps my country which helps me.
Here Here. Its a shame most people don't feel this way.
Who do you think you're helping by losing those twenty cents? All you're doing is paying for busses to run empty where they're completely unnecessary.
And paying to maintain roads that are unused at 3 AM.
It costs nothing to maintain roads that are unused at 3 AM. If it's used during the day but not at night, no additional wear is incurred nightly. It costs nothing, as opposed to repairing, fueling and staffing an additional bus or busses.
(Unused roads cost nothing).
The biggest, and least accounted for, cost of roads is opportunity cost of the land they sit on. Aside from air pollution, the biggest problem with private vehicles is the amount of land required for circulation and parking.
Roads unused for a brief period each day cost nothing more in maintenance from the fact they are unused at night. That's what I was saying.
(Helping out the rest of the country)
Unfortunately, years of anti-New York rhetoric has taxed my patience.
Living in a borough whose per capita income is well below the national average, whose schools are conceded by the NY Regents to provide few children with the skills needed to hold a job, and after 18 years of disruption due to a cracking creaking bridge, I do not feel blessed by the federal government. People aren't grateful for the missing 20 cents. They recent the 80 cents that are wasted in my community.
FYI, virtually all the federal budget cuts of the past 10 years have been targeted at NYC. We have less and less to lose. How about cutting spending elsewhere as well?
Unfortunately, most states send pols to DC who have local self interest in mind. Those are the honest ones. The others have personal self interest in mind.
And what mode of efficient transit will carry me and, say, six pieces of bulky, heavy luggage from Champaign, IL to New York, NY? Today, I'd drive, forcing me to carry the luggage at the beginning and end of the trip. I could fly, but I'd end up paying a fortune thanks to the extra baggage and at best I'd have to shlep the luggage four times, more if I didn't want to be stuck taking a cab. And train and bus aren't reasonable alternatives at all.
I'm not at all thrilled with this country's addiction to commuting to work by private automobile, but long-distance travel is a different story entirely.
[And train and bus aren't reasonable alternatives at all. ]
Not yet but they could be if more people needed to use them.
Bull
There are many parts of the country where these alternatives WOULD NOT exist UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. You can't just have everybody live in a high density area. And if the plane isn't now an alternative, then the train and bus wouldn't be even if their use approached those of planes.
Perhaps.
And in the meantime, how do you suggest I get from Central Illinois to NYC?
You selfish bastard!
Instead of congesting our roads and polluting our air, you should walk! It'll do you a lot of good.
My point is if that people use transit, transit will work. If someone uses transit and buys a ticket it has the same effect as using your car and paying a gas tax. My whole tax plan is designed to force people to use transit. They either pay a tax that does to fund transit or they buy a ticket and get the tax refunded. Either way transit gets the money. Many people say "waht aboot places where there is no transit". Well any type of non-private car or non-airplane service should would as transit. I think that most Americans travel somewhere each year. Instead of driving or taking the plane, whith my tax they would have already paid for their ticket. All they need to do it buy the ticket and they will get a full refund from the govt. It won't matter if you take 1000 1.50 trips or 3 $500 trips. Everyone contributes to transit and everyone can ride.
Or the gvment could chop off evreybody's limbs, that way they couldn't drive and would be forced to take Mass Transit!!!
Just Kidding.
Clark Palicka
My sense of ethics and business beliefs preclude the use of coercion as implied by your use of the word "force."
However, to bring my ethics in line with the typical politician:
I would tie SUV drivers to chairs in a room with a large TV screen on which Hillary recited the full text of "It Takes a Village" in her newly minted Noo Yawk accent.
How many viewings do you it would require to get them to turn in their car keys?
How to force people to use transit?
Have car dealers give a copy of the latest
WCW pay-per-poo event to everyone thinking about
buying or renting a car.
This morning, I cought an R-62A 5 out of Flatbush. The interior strip map was for the 6 - was this just a fluke, or does anyone know if there was some special reason for this? Thanks
subfan
The 5 has two such trains that are from the 6 line.
In fact, if you look in between the cars, the route bullet signs were not changed over to 5 but are still labeled 6.
I think they are used for One Person Train Operation for the Dyre Ave Shuttle at night.
Moreover, I have seen on occasion what you say you saw. Only my vantage point was from 33rd and Park. I see the green from the “5” was more forest-green than the leaf-green style color on the “4” on which mostly R-62’s but also Redbirds run. (Speaking of Redbirds, on one of the front ends of same on which the 5 runs, you can see its pre-1978 grey color scheme showing. If the 4 is running, you can probably see that train showing magenta, and on the 6, yellow.)
The #4 signs on the R62 have been exposed to the sun constantly since 1984/5. That's why they appear more faded than the 5 signs ...
The #7 front route signs on the Flushing R-36s have also faded considerably for the same reason.
I've seen some of those - they are really GREEN signs which have faded to grey due to exposure to the sun. The #5's original color was Black.
Wayne
Actually, in the mid-’70’s, when they still had the color scheme from 1967, they printed some roll signs whereupon any “black”-colored line was represented as grey. I think of the R-46 style signs used from the mid-’70’s to the early ’80’s on lines running R-40/40M/42 trains at the time (B, J, LL). The green signs of which you speak are like on the R-62 4’s which changed from forest green to lime green due to the aforementioned passage of time and exposure to sunlight. No, that grey 5 was printed that way because of the black background.
I've seen one of those cars. It's #8689. The last time I saw it, it still had that gray "5" on the front end signs.
This "grey" #5 was designed for use on trains assigned to the Dyre Ave. shuttle. They are not holdovers from the days when the entire #5 line was represented as a grayish/black color. All redbirds had their signs replaced before or during their GOH.
Regarding the gray #5: route colors were assigned to each line with the issuance of the Chrystie Street Edition of the subway map in November of 1967. The #5 Lexington Av Exp and #5 Lexington Av Thru-Exp were both given the color black. The Dyre Avenue Shuttle was designated "SS" and given the color green.
This lasted until the computer generated maps starting in 1972. At that time the Dyre Av Shuttle was incorporated into the #5 service and since the computer used black printing it lightened up the #5 to a dark gray. The #5 was still shown as a black disc on the legend at the top of the map.
This was in effect until the Diamond Jubilee Edition of the map was issued in June of 1979 when all 4,5 and 6 services were colored dark green.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I know that the following scenario is very unlikely, but it's still worth asking.
You, an average subfan who is not a transit professional, are sitting in the first car of your regualr train on its regular route on a regular day at about 8PM. You can hear through the motorman's door that he is listening to the radio. After what sounds like the Power Ball drawing the brakes go on fully, the train comes to a halt and the driver busts out shouting. From the rear of car the condustor comes in also yelling. They embrace and proceede to jump up and down far a bit. After this they throw off their MTA hats, force open a door and run up an emergancy exit leaving the train in a lurch. You are left sitting there staring into the open cab. The train is powered and ready to roll. My questions are: A) Do you think you could safely get the train to the next station? B) Would you take control and get the train to the next station? and C) Why stop there, would you take the train more than one station or even try and finish the run?
A) Do you think you could safely get
the train to the next station?
Yes, but they don't do the Powerball
schtick in this area.
B) Would you take control and get
the train to the next station?
See A.
C) Would you take the train more than
one station or even try and finish
the run?
No. Command Center would have me chained.
C.
Wayne
hey joisey mike--- this is my act--- but I am willing to help a newcomer break into the world of comedy.
You have not provided enough information. What kind of equipment is it? If it is R-44 or newer I would offer a choice d)
d) do nothing. the equipment is not worth getting your hands dirty on.
If you are strapped for money, and the train is crowded---- then I would offer choice e)
e) get on the radio and tell Command Center that you are Mr. Green and that they have 30 minutes to bring you $1,000,000 in Susan B. Anthony coins. I know it would weigh a lot, but you have your hand truck that you always bring with you, as well as your segmented device to overcome the deadman's control.
Warn command center not to allow that big mouth Train Supervisor from 42nd Street to approach your train. If he does, you'll blow him away again. While you are awaiting delivery of the money, get on the PA and ask if there are any financial planners who can help you plan for your future. Also see if there are any travel agents with a cell phone who can help you get the cheapest flight out of the country.
And tell the desk trainmaster to go play with his trains.
I'd like to find out what the T/O and C/R were so happy about. A restoration of field shunting and resultant faster trains? They're going to start removing many of those GT signals and WDs? Construction of the 2nd Ave. line will resume tomorrow? The Manhattan Bridge has been fixed for good? The R-10s are coming back?!? Oh, I know - none of the above. It's still nice to dream.
Steve asked why the T/O and C/R were happy? I think it was because they won a state lottery, and that they were now able to realize their common dream of buying an 11 car set of Redbirds when the cars are scrapped, laying 10 miles of track in upstate New York with 8 stations, removing the field shunting, and then operating their train at top speed, flying through stations without picking up any customers.
By the way, what exactly does C/R stand for? I know it refers to the conductor.
ConductoR?
You suggest C/R stands for ConductoR. Does the ?
mark at the end mean you are guessing?
I am serious. I would have thought that if the
conductors had more respect and they needed to
abbreviate conductor--- they would have used C/0 as
in commanding officer or commanding operator
reflecting the rule book giving the conductor
overall control of the train.
Or less seriously, use D/O to stand for Door
Operator which would go nicer with T/O. I know
that the conductor has responsibilities beside door
operation-- such as ensuring the train is signed
correctly. Which leads to another meaning of C/R
--curtain raiser??? or Customer Regulator??
Just thought of it!!! C/R Cattle Rouser
As they say: Your guess is as good as mine.
removing the field shunting
Paul, put on the dunce cap and go sit in a corner (preferably
your left-handed R-9 cab).....one would want to put the
field shunting back, not remove it. Don't make me take out
the physics text book and start lecturing!
I would check the cab to see if the radio was left. If so, I would use it to call and report what happened and get help.
>see if the radio was left. If so,
I would use it to call and report what happened and get help.
Pfffffffft!! You're no fun!
This is EXACTLY why our Webmaster is going to establish a password system to post.
And thin-skinned, too. Since the original post was intended as humor, it's legitimate for someone to chide you gently for taking it seriously. This doesn't even come close to the verbal sticks- and-stones that were being thrown on BusTalk.
The reason I posted what I did was not the chide, it was the use of a form of my handle as an e-mail. That's being just like the BusTalk posts that caused the board to be blocked to posting.
What Radio??
There are no more cab radio's, Train crew each have their own personal portable radio.
Methinks he wanted to use the radio that had just announced the Powerball winner.
If the scenerio that was posted had actually happened, the T/O and CR were so "wigged out" that they might have left their personal radios lying on the seat in the cabs.
I was just trying to invent a little story that would give a reason for the crew to abandon the train. However you can assume that the radio is there so you have the option of wussing out.
you are talking joisey mike about BREAKING THE LAW RIGHT ???
that means jail and or PRISION !!!!!! am i
right or wrong ??? I CAN SAFELY DRIVE A BUS !!! if i steal a MTA BUS AND DRIVE IT
AWAY WHAT HAPPENENS WHEN THE POLICE CATCH UP TO YOU WITH GUNS DRAWN ???
First, let me state that I consider Salaam Allah to
be a friend, whom I hope to meet when he comes to
New York City in March to film the story of my life.
It is currently planned to be a 3 video set, which
will chronicle my life from birth to age 14, at
which point my mental and emotional development
fixated. I hope that it will give all of you out
there who have come to despise me,a sense of what
it's like to walk in my shoes. For those of you who can't afford the planned price of $89.95, I will try to arrange a special 18 hour marathon showing at a future ERA monthly meeting. If that comes to pass, count on my bringing my gas grill to provide a free midnight snack as well as breakfast and light brunch on the following Saturday. At the conclusion of the video, I and cinematographer Salaam Allah will be taking questions and ducking whipped cream pies that may be thrown.
Since my recent experience with someone who
chastised me for pursuing my stated goal of
irritating as many fellow SubTalkers as possible, I
have decided to abandon that project. Instead, I
will take on the greater challenge of trying to get
my friend Salaam Allah to laugh. My initial attempt
at this project is this message.
My question to Salaam? Are you laughing while you
are reading this post?
I must also point out, that I have accepted my first
student in my graduate degree program in
Foolishness, and his PhD project entails his finding
a way to make Mr. Willie laugh.
Is that $89.95 plus $15.00 shipping paid in three monthly installments?
Can I can get a break on the deal since I live along the Brighton?
I think Mr. Willie would jump in the cab (if this is a full width cab car) and flim out the operating window. You know how He feels about railfan windows and since the crew left the cab door open....
Lou--- for people within bike riding distance of Sheepshead Bay, I will provide free delivery. I will come at night, so that you will not suffer the embarrassment of being seen in public with me.
However payment must be in cash or by money order. I will not guarantee that you find the video worthy of your money. I will however throw in for the first 500 people, a Vegematic that you can use to slice and dice the video in case you find it a waste.
I love your suggestion about Mr. Willie filming through the motorman's window. However, Mr. Willie is an honorable law abiding citizen who would not look to get into trouble with the law.
I have since thought of another possible answer choice. If the train crew does not have experience managing money prudently, perhaps they will be soon parted with their money. Therefore choice f) might be
f) Wait at least 2 or 3 hours, giving the crew a chance to reconsider their career plans. A delay of 2 or 3 hours would hardly be noticed. If the crew returned, they could run express and easily get back on schedule.
heypaul, I don't know about Salaam, but you got me laughing!
Could I get a better price on the video if I traded you the key to the food locker for it? :)
Karl wants to know if he can get a discount on the price of the 3 video story of my life if he gives me the key to the food locker. The key is not enough, I need to know who posted as heypaul. I'm afraid that even that knowledge would not call for a discount in the video. I am hoping that the profits from the video will make it possible for me to stop tutoring, and devote all my energies to posting on this bulletin board. It's a frightening thought...
you are talking joisey mike about BREAKING THE LAW RIGHT ???
that means jail and or PRISION !!!!!! am i
right or wrong ??? I CAN SAFELY DRIVE A BUS !!! if i steal a MTA BUS AND DRIVE IT
AWAY WHAT HAPPENENS WHEN THE POLICE CATCH UP TO YOU WITH GUNS DRAWN ???
First, let me state that I consider Salaam Allah to
be a friend, whom I hope to meet when he comes to
New York City in March to film the story of my life.
It is currently planned to be a 3 video set, which
will chronicle my life from birth to age 14, at
which point my mental and emotional development
fixated. I hope that it will give all of you out
there who have come to despise me,a sense of what
it's like to walk in my shoes. For those of you who can't afford the planned price of $89.95, I will try to arrange a special 18 hour marathon showing at a future ERA monthly meeting. If that comes to pass, count on my bringing my gas grill to provide a free midnight snack as well as breakfast and light brunch on the following Saturday. At the conclusion of the video, I and cinematographer Salaam Allah will be taking questions and ducking whipped cream pies that may be thrown.
Since my recent experience with someone who
chastised me for pursuing my stated goal of
irritating as many fellow SubTalkers as possible, I
have decided to abandon that project. Instead, I
will take on the greater challenge of trying to get
my friend Salaam Allah to laugh. My initial attempt
at this project is this message.
My question to Salaam? Are you laughing while you
are reading this post?
I must also point out, that I have accepted my first
student in my graduate degree program in
Foolishness, and his PhD project entails his finding
a way to make Mr. Willie laugh.
Is that $89.95 plus $15.00 shipping paid in three monthly installments?
Can I can get a break on the deal since I live along the Brighton?
I think Mr. Willie would jump in the cab (if this is a full width cab car) and flim out the operating window. You know how He feels about railfan windows and since the crew left the cab door open....
Lou--- for people within bike riding distance of Sheepshead Bay, I will provide free delivery. I will come at night, so that you will not suffer the embarrassment of being seen in public with me.
However payment must be in cash or by money order. I will not guarantee that you find the video worthy of your money. I will however throw in for the first 500 people, a Vegematic that you can use to slice and dice the video in case you find it a waste.
I love your suggestion about Mr. Willie filming through the motorman's window. However, Mr. Willie is an honorable law abiding citizen who would not look to get into trouble with the law.
I have since thought of another possible answer choice. If the train crew does not have experience managing money prudently, perhaps they will be soon parted with their money. Therefore choice f) might be
f) Wait at least 2 or 3 hours, giving the crew a chance to reconsider their career plans. A delay of 2 or 3 hours would hardly be noticed. If the crew returned, they could run express and easily get back on schedule.
heypaul, I don't know about Salaam, but you got me laughing!
Could I get a better price on the video if I traded you the key to the food locker for it? :)
Karl wants to know if he can get a discount on the price of the 3 video story of my life if he gives me the key to the food locker. The key is not enough, I need to know who posted as heypaul. I'm afraid that even that knowledge would not call for a discount in the video. I am hoping that the profits from the video will make it possible for me to stop tutoring, and devote all my energies to posting on this bulletin board. It's a frightening thought...
It has to be C life does not give many chances, take with both arms.
Take the radio and tell comand center "We'll kill one person ever hour until New York pays up $1000000" Then run out
How often does the command centre hear that line? I mean if I was a T/O I'd have to do that every month or so, its just irresistable.
If Frank Corrall were running things, he'd say, "You're out of your skull!", if not "Yeah, right."
If it were Perry White, he'd say, "Great Caesar's ghost!"
If it were Quinton McHale, he'd say, "Great jumpin' Jehoshaphat!"
Then if any of them were to find out that a train of R-44s or R-68s had been seized, they'd say, "Screw it! Let 'em keep the train!"
The R-44 is fast, comfortable and quiet. I'd give up any train (especially all 39 R-33 singles, the one museum car can stay, I hold no ill will towards it) for it, except for the R-46 which is better.
Well, it's comfortable and quiet, anyway. You're right about the R-46: it is better.
The R-44 is not an R-68, it is fast.
Funny, I've been thinking about such scenarios, and have always dreamed of something like this happening. But if it were me, I may take the train to the next station, if I felt like I knew what was going on. Otherwise, I would contact command center, and then get on the PA and make funny announcements until someone got there. And if my classmate Frank was on the train, boy would I make fun of him.
You could do what this guy on the Canarsie line did once. I was sharing the railfan window with him, and as our train of BMT standards was entering 6th Ave., he turned to his friend and hollered, "Hey, Ron! Next stop, Havana!"
You are left sitting there staring into the open cab. The train is powered and ready to roll. My questions are: A) Do you think you could safely get the train to the next station? B) Would you take control and get the train to the next station? and C) Why stop there, would you take the train more than one station or even try and finish the run?
If the crew took their radios, I'd certainly attempt option C; but there's no way I'd proceed beyond the next station or accelerate beyond a crawling pace.
CH.
If the crew took their radios, I'd certainly attempt option C; but there's no way I'd proceed beyond the next station or accelerate beyond a crawling pace.
Make that option 'B,' of course...
CH.
The R110 B was actually in service today.Saw it at Bdwy-ENY at 11:20am as a 6 car C local (Euclid 1113)
This isn't unusual. The remaining R100B cars usually make a few runs on the C line during the week.
Yes but the 110 disapeared during the E reroute since the E is a full 10 car train.
This isn't unusual. The remaining R110B cars usually make a few runs on the C line during the week.
Is 11:13 it's normal time now? Does anybody know the schedule for the R110B, as in time. I have ride it!
I AM PLANNING A WALK ON THE LIRR ROCKAWAY LINE ON SUNDAY MARCH 12, 2000.
We will walk the right of way from it's junction with the LIRR in Rego Park to Woodhaven station. At Woodhaven, A school bus company built on the ROW. So, At this point we will leave the ROW and follow it for the remaining three blocks to Ozone Park station and on to the connection with the subway at Liberty Avenue on the street. Tour will conclude with a ride to Rockaway Park station on the subway. (How many have gone from Rego to Rockaway park on the RR lately???? Not many!!)
So here is the info:
DATE: Sunday, March 12, 2000
(Raindate 3-19-00)
TIME: 10:00AM
PLACE: By conductor's board at 63RD Drive station, Queens bound platform.
NOTE: Meeting place may change. Tour will run appx. 2-4 hours. ROW is a forest! There are trees everywhere! Wear study shoes and be prepared for a long walk. The line is just over 3 miles. I hope to see you all there. Please e-mail me if you have any questions at: Mark618@webtv.net
After my recent experience with a bogus LIRR field trip posted in my name, is there any way we can confirm that this is the real Mark W. posting this announcement? It is possible that the real Mark W. has also caused distress to the same person who impersonated me. So we have here the issue of whether the real Mark W. posted this invitation or the bogus Mark W? This seems a little reminiscent of Sherman Cheung and the real Sherman Cheung. For that matter, is this the real heypaul or the bogus heypaul speaking now? I have to check. This could get very complicated if I let it. There are many more permutations to this problem. The real heypaul could have posted notice of the Rockaway trip under the bogus handle of Mark W. Or the real Mark W. could have posted the Manhattan Beach hoax under the handle of heypaul. Or a bogus Mark W. might be posting this message under the handle of heypaul. I think I will lie down for a little while.
ROFLOLKTC---Will the Real Mark W. Stand up??
How do we know the real Lou from Brooklyn posted this response.
Or more to the point, did the real Doug aka BMTman just post this reply to a possible 'Lou from Brooklyn'?
What a connundrum!!!!!!!!!!
Doug aka BMTman (prehaps?)
Maybe we are ready for passwords on this board, also.
I also received this in email (didn't even look forged) from Mark so I'm going to go out on a limb and say this is probably on the level.
-dave
Didn't they do this on "Get Smart" when there were two chiefs?
There was a similar episode on F Troop featuring Capt. Parmenter's lookalike, Kid Vicious.
LOST IN SPACE had an episode where Dr. Zachary Smith ("Oh, the Pain")was confounded by his look-alike, Zeno, an old-west outlaw.
And Star Trek has had its share of duplicate personae also.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
WHAT???????????????????!!!!!!!!!!
WOW!!!! I am still trying to figure that out. Rest assured, It is me. WAIT! I think it's me. Let me look in the mirror.....(SCREAM)......Yeah, It's me :-)
02/15/2000
I walked this branch from the LIRR line to Atlantic Ave about 10 years ago. After the trip we duplicated it by automobile and took an odometer reading. The one way trip was 2.1 miles, but since we walked back the same way the reading came out to 4.2 miles. Sturdy shoes is a must!
The highlights are the overpass of the Jackie Robinson (ex-Interboro)Parkway area and the old electrified freight siding at Park Lane. Nobody bothered us and many pictures were taken, however one tense moment came at the abandoned Atlantic Ave. station when a couple of guard dogs from the school bus lot entered the ROW and harassed us. No bites, so no big deal. However we couldn't see if the old tower was still standing. A great walking tour if the weather is not wet, perhaps a rain date should be posted since March is a fickle month for weather.
Bill Newkirk
It can also be COLD - i.e. March 7, 1999's Museum Trip to the Canarsie and upper Myrtle Lines was conducted in the teeth of a gale and a high temperature of 25 degrees. Perhaps a cold date should be considered as well.
Wayne
02/15/2000
You don't want to wait too long since the spring will be here and the foilage will appear on the trees. Bare trees are best when shooting the old Rock line.
Bill Newkirk
What happens if someone doesn't come by subway? Is there a separate, outside of fare control meeting spot?
I'm going there to see how many entrances there are. As of now, The main booth sounds good.
-Mark
Also, the last time I was over there, there was a flock of abandoned school buses on the trestle in the vicinity of Atlantic Ave/Woodhaven. It may or may not be passable...
www.forgotten-ny.com
We got by the abandoned cars in the Polo Grounds Tunnel, so we'll get by the flock of abandoned school buses on the trestle.
However, if their lights are flashing red, we'll have to wait until the drivers closes the doors and the signals go off ....
--Mark
Are you sure that's not near Shepherd Ave.? (lost flock=shepherd)
Rim shot!!
I used to play there as a kid often. Count me in if I can make it.
I will definitely try to be there!
I'll be in NYC on 3/12. I'll try to be there.
The ROW is interrupted at Union Turnpike by a parking lot of a condominium. Do you know exactly whereyou are entering and exiting? Wouldn't want to be wandering onto any live tracks.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The question that should also be asked is if the tour would be passing on any private property.... You would probably want to stay clear of trouble.
-Stef
This trip sounds great. I am especially excited about the prospects of there being live sections of third rail along the ROW. However I will be out of town that weekend at the 1st Annual Internet Impostor Identification Convention being held in Niagara Falls. ( See I said Niagara Falls, and nothing happened ) I have heard rumors though from my spies on the Internet, that the heypaul impostor will attend this trip. I am hoping that someone will push him/her down the embankment and teach him/her not to impersonate me/you.
HA! Good one. Who's to say this is actually Stef posting? For all you know it may be someone else..... You like live sections of 3rd rail? Well you could pee on it for fun and get a jolt of 600 volts going through you. You'll say to yourself, "oh what a feeling". But when you get zapped, you get PISSED off. You find that you've become like a light switch and decide to stop taking a whiz on the live rail so you don't become a human conductor of electricity! Kids, do not try this home:)
Shame on me. I really don't think I'm myself right now. I'm nothing more than a zombie going through a sleepless night....
-Stef
Must be all that work you're doing on 6688. Overworked, perhaps?-)
P. S. What happened to the Mr. R-17 part of your handle?
I tell you I'm possessed with heypaul's spirit!!!
As for the handle, it's there, unofficially. I've registered my handle with the Webmaster so I've been decreed to be known as "Stef" for the duration of the time that I browse this site. It doesn't mean that I won't throw the nickname "Mr. R17" around. I've put many hours in the car, operated it, and still rant and rave about it like the Railfan Foamer that I am. But that's me. I guess I'll never get enough of the lady in the Red Dress:)
-Stef
P.S. Do I have your blessings for use of the Mr. R17 handle?
Stef, it's just that some of us here at SubTalk thought that part of your handle fell off :-)
See ya tomorrow night!
Doug aka BMTman
You bet. Absolutely. The next time I'm at Shoreline, hopefully 6688 will be taken out for a spin on the mainline. Or maybe 1689.
Too bad I don't drive. I'd love to go see the cars at Shorline one of these days. I might even volunteer to help with the fixing up of the older subway cars. Somebody posted a few weeks ago that they need volunteers badly.
The M-N New Haven, plus a bus with get you there without too much hassle, also when they have special events there's usually a tour comming up from NYC sponcered by one of the local rail groups, e.g. ERA, or TA museum. Stef is a regular who doesn't let his lack of a car stop him from getting TLC time with his favorite car.
BTW, Coney Island has a lot of our favorite cars in their collection. Mike Hanna & Mark W. would love to have any of you fence sitters join them for a weekday evening of getting dirty AND they're just a Hippo ride away on the F. Right now they're concentrating on getting the set of Standards operational again.
So, if you love them find a way to join us. This writter has found it very rewarding!
Mr t__:^)
If there's work to be done withing the range of a subway ride, then I'd be very interested. If anyone needs help, feel free to e-mail me.
Thank You for those comments, Mr. t. I guess this person doesn't want to go through the hassle of taking the RR to New Haven and then travel by bus or cab to the Museum. The bottom line is you need money to spend for excursions like this. I don't always have the money to spend, and you don't always see me at Branford. That's why if I can get a ride with colleagues, it makes my life easier. However, I won't let lack of a car stop me from enjoying myself and accomplishing the tasks at hand. Why the hell should I be held back by the distance when this is my labor of love, the thing that gets me going through a weekend? I figure it's accessible by the RR, so I can make the trip. The excursion by RR is actually rewarding, because you sit back and relax, enjoy the view of the outside world, instead of driving up I-95 and tiring yourself out.
I won't discourage anybody from going elsewhere, becasue everyone has a Museum that they would like to be associated with. The Museum I'm associated with has a nice, diverse fleet of operating Rapid Transit and Streetcar Equipment.
-Stef
P.S. Maybe the Trustees of the Association should change the name of the Museum to the Shore Line Trolley and Rapid Transit Museum since the Association posesses Rapid Transit Cars? What do you think?
Is electricity the new nickname for your R-17? =|:-)
Huh? I kinda missed that one. I don't think the R-17 has anything to do with the ROW in Queens.
-Stef
You were talking about the conductor of electricity :-)
The ROW is owned by the city, there is no private property alongside it. There are however some squatters along the ROW. Maybe you should bring a city official to take surveys of which houses will have to be visited by the police.
I'm THINKING about going - I'd like to find out if there is ANY trace left of the Parkside station at Metropolitan Avenue. There's just one little problem - the following day, Monday March 13 I am scheduled for a marathon fan trip with Simon Billis and subway-buff, which will start at 0745 and end whenever it ends. I am concerned that I will tire myself out walking that ROW. I may opt for warmer weather - maybe sometime in late April, early May if they're going to do a reprise like they did for the Polo Grounds Shuttle.
Wayne
Interested in locating a railfan video
of the West Side IRT 1/9 line from the
pre-full-width-cab days..
Also interested in Redbird Videos..
Have two (interlocking) reels from
Polo Grounds Trip 2 & 3.
I SHOT THE # 2 END TO END ALSO I SHOT THE #5 # 7 DAY AND NIGHT !!!
I PLAN TO GET # 4 THIS MARCH 2000 IF I CAN !!!!!
asiaticcommunications@yahoo.com IF YOU ARE INTERESTED !!
See my video list. The Lo-V fantrip from 1996, in particular, has a non-stop cab view from Chambers Street - 242nd Street via Broadway / 7th Avenue Express (#2,3) to 96th St and local to 242nd Street (#1,9).
There are no less than 4 videos covering Redbirds, and I have new ones that I'll be making available in the coming weeks.
--Mark
The rest of the world's subway systems post their proposed expansion on their maps usually in the form of a dotted line (for example the Green line to Anacostia in DC). New York should too. That way there'd be added pressure to actually complete the line because all New Yorkers and tourists would be reminded constantly of the proposed improvement. Have there ever been official NYC subway maps which included proposed expansions? Has the idea ever been debated by the MTA?
When i line closes for repair, such as the Frankiln Av Shutle or the Willamburgs bridge on thr M they use a dotted line. Maybe the map is to culttlered as is too make any more marks.
(P.S. isn't a name like THE map kind of overpowering?)
The MAP Sucks, I don't want LIRR and Met-North clutterin' up the back, I want my Strip maps Back too.
Dotted lines have also indicated bus services which have replaced rapid transit lines, for example the Myrtle Av. service, BX55 (3rd Av. El) and the Culver shuttle replacement.
These disappear over time as the replaced lines are forgotten by all but the railfans.
Actually, the dotted lines represented busses to which transfer was allowed. The lines were removed with the July, 1997 edition because it no longer made any sense to continue listing them.
In "Under the Sidewalks of New York", there is a map circa 1988 showing all the existing lines. (The actual line names and stations were omitted). There is a dotted line running up and down 2nd Ave indicating that the 2nd Ave subway is on the MTA's back burner.
Some times dotted lines work, sometimes they don't. For years back in the late 50s and throughout the 1960s, highway maps of New York had Bob Moses' dotted lines for both the Lower Manhattan and Mid Manhattan Expressways. while other dotted lines criss crossed the Greenbelt on Staten Island. Washington D.C. also had the dotted line for I-95 running from the downtown tunnels out to the Beltway. After a while, t hey just gave up and put I-95 on the Beltway.
Subway dotted lines might increase pressure to get the lines, or they might increase NIMBY pressure against. A dotted line on the N, for example, from Astoria to LaGuardia Airport would probably manage to do both at the same time.
That particular map showed the segments of the 2nd Ave. line which were actually finished, although they're not to scale.
There are two maps. One showed the finished tunnel segments. There is a different map towards the back of the book, which shows a dotted line running up the entire Second Ave section of Manhattan Island. The lines representing the operating lines are all written in black. They do not list any stations, nor do they identify the line. The only information is the terminal station. The caption under the map says specifically that the broken line is the Second Av. Subway, currently on the MTA's back burner.
Those lines on the map of the DC Metro are for lines UNDER CONSTRUCTION, not proposed. By the time a line makes it to the map, it's going to open anyway, no pressure is involved.
Until the bulldozers come in, don't expect to see the line on the map for the extension from Addison Road to Largo.
I think the same should be said about the Orange Line extension to Dulles Airport.
I didn't think that was as far along as the Largo extension.
The last NYCTA map which I remember seeing "lines under construction" indicated on was the map inside the R-16 and R-17 cars when they were delivered around 1954. They showed broken lines for the connection from the BMT 60th St tunnel to the IND Queens Blvd line and for the IND extension from Euclid Ave to the Fulton St El at 80th St and from Rockaway Blvd station on the Fulton St El off the edge of the map (to the Rockaways).
-- Ed Sachs
I believe the IND system map of the 1930's showed the then Under Construction 6th Avenue Subway with a dotted line.
The Phila Chapter of NRHS is sponsoring a "Yellowbird" trip on Sun 3/12. It leaves from 30th St Station in the AM and is scheduled to go on the entire West Trenton, Elwyn and (new) Thorndale lines. The scheduled equipment is from the group of Silverliner III's given the yellow window stripe for the Airport service. The stripe is going to be replaced at some point by the new red/blue SEPTA scheme.
Contact the Phila Chapter at PO Box 7302, Phila 19101 for details. The cost is $35. I'm planning to go so I'll be seeking out other SubTalkers should they care to identify themselves outside of cyberspace.
Why? Was it that the yellow striped trains appeared on other lines. The midday R6 to Cynwyd had an R1 car which was misleading and should be changed.
The Yellowbirds were outfitted with 2-2 seating and baggage racks near the doors for dedicated R1 service. This worked when R1 was not linked to any other service (merely Airport-Wayne Jct, etc). Today, R1 is often linked with other routes - R2 Warminster in middays and some weekend trips, R3 West Trenton at times, and R6 Norristown on weekends in the past (now R6 seems to be connected to R2 Wilmington). Also, SEPTA made no moves to dedicate the equipment to the Airport Line and it now can turn up virtually anywhere. It is rumored that the Yellowbirds will be the first to get the new SEPTA striping which will allow them to blend into the fleet better and get dispatched with greater flexibility.
I've taken the R1 from ME to 30th and have noticed such differences. I have 2 lines in my made up system for DC that go to National and have special cars. They do share the Alexandria Yard with a third line which doesn't have them which is a problem sometimes if the trains are mixed.
About an hour ago I was travelling N/B on Clinton Rd going from Hempstead into Garden City when I passed the LIRR Central Branch tracks. Just E/O Clinton Rd (opposite the old ticket office converted to firehouse which is on the West side) there was a LIRR locomotive (definitely LIRR & not NY & Atlantic RR) hooked up to a long train of open air freight cars. The cars had slatted sides (like large open Venetian Blinds) and there seemed to be alot of them. They sort of looked like very large Radio Flyer wagons, the ones with the wooden slatted sides. Anyone know what it was doing there and what kind of cars they were. I just wish I was at the Clinton Rd crossing when the train went through. I thought the only train that goes through there was the Ringlng Bros circus train. By the way, after I turned right onto Stewart Av and passed the trainyard by Roosevelt Field where the circus train parks it looked like there was some construction going on there, with some MTA/LIRR cranes working there.
the SARGE-my homepage
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[About an hour ago I was travelling N/B on Clinton Rd going from Hempstead into Garden City when I passed the LIRR Central Branch tracks. Just E/O Clinton Rd (opposite the old ticket office converted to firehouse which is on the West side) there was a LIRR locomotive (definitely LIRR & not NY & Atlantic RR) hooked up to a long train of open air freight cars. The cars had slatted sides (like large open Venetian Blinds) and there seemed to be alot of them. They sort of looked like very large Radio Flyer wagons, the ones with the wooden slatted sides. Anyone know what it was doing there and what kind of cars they were. I just wish I was at the Clinton Rd crossing when the train went through. I thought the only train that goes through there was the Ringlng Bros circus train. By the way, after I turned right onto Stewart Av and passed the trainyard by Roosevelt Field where the circus train parks it looked like there was some construction going on there, with some MTA/LIRR cranes working there.]
It looks as if they were maintenance-of-way cars used for carrying rail sections. That would tie in with the LIRR locomotive and the track work you saw in the yard.
Auto carriers are about the only type of standard freight car that would come close to your description. Unless it's a very recent development, they aren't used on Long Island, the yards being in New Jersey. I'm not sure if there's sufficient clearance to bring them all the way down the Hudson line, though I suppose the NYCH carfloats could be used.
Thats a welded rail train, its came in last weekend of off CSX.
Jay
:) also, if thats the tracks behind the Nassau coliseum? its not the central branch, its the Garden City mitchel field seconday track.
Jay
The Garden City secondary IS the old Central RR of LI.
Thanks for the info. The train was parked just east of Clinton Rd, across Clinton from the firehouse that was the old station.
Unless they're looking for a place out of the way - WHY would there be a welded rail train *there*?
Does the LIRR intend to do any major trackwork this summer (hopefully a disruptive, but much needed fixing of the main line through Mineola)?
This will be my last post from my old trusty P.C.(and versions of) of 4 years. Now all my posts will come via WebTV for a while.
I'm getting a little nostalgic, that's all.
From here, I've learned basically everything I know about subways, rapid transit systems and the cities that have them.
I'll still post, but mainly on weekends(no big loss:).
I'm done.
Subway2K---Welcome to the wonderful world of webtv. It is a far simpler world. I have been connecting to the internet with webtv all along. Although I have heard people here slam webtv posters as irresponsible, I think I serve as a prime example as well as the Sarge, that it has not limited our contribution to society. If you have any questions about how to turn the unit on, feel free to ask. After about 3 months of use,I have mastered the art of pushing the round green button on the top of the keyboard. I don't know if you are planning to buy the optional remote keyboard. Being cheap, at first I did not buy it, and I had to use a keyboard that would pop up on the screen. Then using the cursor arrows, you had to scroll over to each key you wanted, and hit enter. That was a little time consuming. I found that my average post took about 3 or 4 hours to complete by that method. Now that I have been using the remote keyboard, I find that the same post takes about 3 minutes. I think it was worth the extra $50. Now if I was inclined, in a 24 hour period I could post close to 500 posts. I just wish I had something of importance to say.
Seriously, I hope you continue to have fun here.
Nothing wrong with Web TV, I had mine for a year before I bought my computer, If you have no need for a computer, WEB TV is the way to go, and get a keyboard, and a HP Printer.
I know people who have both, a PC & WebTV. By using WebTV for the internet and not connecting the PC to the net they cannot get a virus from any email or website.
By not downloading anything, and disabling Java, one also doesn't download viruses, and has a computer.
Get a good, powerful anti-virus program and you can cruse the Net and not worry. I've been Net active at least 4 years and NEVER got a virus. It's always money well spent.
And I didn't have an antivirus program until I got MS-PLUS 98, although I had a virus checker built in to DOS 6.22 early on.
Not one virus, and I've been an active downloader of programs.
So you won't have a computer anymore, or this'll just be a transition period?
It's a transition. I was just getting a little gushy.
I've had WebTV at home since the summer but don't like using it too much. It has very limited functions compared to a PC and it sucks when you're trying to build a decent webpage(though it has been done).
Actually, it isn't such of a barrier. I think my website (currently down, normally metrocard.cjb.net) is well designed, all the work is done with the Advanced HTML editor on Geocities, and all the images were transferred from another site, usually by transload. I can do any of that if I had WebTV.
I'm 95% sure I saw this yesterday: an A train of 38's but with 2 r32s in the middle. Is this possible?
Yes indeed! Theres a set of 10 R32 that were rebuilt by GE (Buffalo Transit) They son't play well with other R32.
-Hank
And they don't look like R32s either - they look like R38s!
BTW two of them, #3934-3935, are out of service and have been picked over by the Parts Vultures to keep the other eight running.
#3594-3595; #3880-3881; #3892-3893; #3936-3937 are the Odd R32GE's.
Wayne
Has any GE equipped car not been a complete disappointment for the TA? The GE R16's were much worse then the Westinghouse, and the R32 GE cars can't even be used in the summer.
Memo to the MTA: Dont let GE do the electrical work on future subway cars. They make nice refridgerators, but ...
In addition, besides these trains in question, there are also the MK-rebuilt R-32’s which are often seen intermixed with R-38’s in consists used on the A and C lines, but that’s another matter. But subsequent to the R-16, GE improved its record somewhat, but based upon your posts not enough to warrant perfection.
I think the R-62 more than qualifies as "not a complete disappointment." It's one of the most reliable fleets NYCT's ever had, and each and every car is equipped with GE propulsion.
David
I wasn't aware of that. I thought Westinghouse did the R62's. Perhaps they finally figured how to do it right.
Now that Westinghouse has ceased to exist? Who would do the work on the cars? I know that WABCO is independent, the lighting division is owned by Philips and the science search (damn bastards) is sponsored by Intel.
Yep. R38's and R32's are all mixed up now, as the R42 and R40 M's are on the J and M lines. I hate it. I like order ...
Consider the overall look, R/40 odd- R/40M even, r/40M odd- R/40 evem. I think it would look sleek . Or consider and 8 pack of R/68's and a single R42 to boost service by 10% on the "E". Use your minds eye and take a 10 ft. section out of the center of an M-1 and create
super express service .
R68's and R42's are incompatible. R42's can only run in pairs, not alone. And IND stations cannot handle 660' trains anymore.
R68s and R42s are compatible
They do have the same couplers. I don't know about mechanical and electrical compatibility.
I was told that no 75' and 60' car could run together in the same train.
Not for passenger service.
The R-40 cannot run with any other car in regular service, not even the R-40M.
Are you sure? I've seen pics on this website of slant R40's and R27/30's and R32's running together.
What makes the R40 slants so unusual?
Their slant fronts warrant special braces, they do not connect well with other cars.
You would be able to use them together, but you'd have to lock the storm doors in that part, and because the doors cannot be opened trainline, that's hazardous.
Those photos date from the late 60s and early 70s, when smorgasbord trains, as I like to call those zany mixed consists, were common. The slant R-40s really stick out like sore thumbs when coupled to any other cars.
If you wanted a cool-looking train, you could split a pair of R-40s, match them with a split pair of R-40Ms, put the slants at either end of the train and put three pairs of R-40Ms in the middle. Then you'd have a 10-car train with the slanted ends only in the front and back, which would look more like the trains used in Montreal during Expo 67..
Yea and just think you could take off all of that crap (chains gates etc.) that they grafted onto they R-40s.
Peace,
Andee
I like solid trains, too. At least the R-32s and R-38s blend in well. So do the R-40Ms and R-42s.
At one time, before the "F" train replaced the "D" to Church ave, the "E" and "F" ran 11 car sets. Is it not possible to equipe an R/42 to be a single, not necessarily a lead car?
Plan "B" 7 R/68's and a pair of R/42 = 645 ft. to allow for platform shrinkage do to trash and storage space. This could be an increase of
7 1/2%.
I was wondering if anywhere in the world (hopefully in New York) have subway, metro, el cars featured advertisments on the outside of the train cars. have any trains been painted with advertisments in the outside of them? Please help me!!
You are one of the reasons that we *talkers now need passwords. Please provide a real name and real E-Mail. We shouldn't have to type a password everytime we want to say something.
You don't provide your real name
He provides a real e-mail.
And why would you have to type a password? You don't type your name.
I'm sorry, I meant real name as one that isn't the same as the subject. As for the password deal, If passwords work good on Bustalk they will be required on Subtalk as well.
i saw ads outside on subway cars in chicago last year. they should have them here. they could make the subway look much better and get more advertising for the city and the ta
Chicago's CTA has managed to turn a substantial portion of its rail and bus fleet into garish-looking billboards on wheels.
-- David
Chicago, IL
From what I can tell, there's only one or two trains on the West-Northwest service that have ads (for United Airlines), and also a couple trains on the Ravenswood. For now, the North-South is devoid of train wraps; remember the lotto train?
For a photo of 3200s in Old Navy's ad wrap in August 1998, see old_navy.jpg
http://www.chicago-l.org/trains/gallery/old_navy.jpg
--
Alan Follett
Pittsburgh was notorious for it in the PCC era; don't know about now. Many European light rail and trolley systems do full advertising wraps. Subway equipment has largely escaped it, possibly because the only people that see it are the passengers and they are in too much of a hurry to pay attention. Trolleys, on the other hand, are seen by everyone else in traffic, just like buses, which are often wrapped.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In Boston, MBTA Green Line trolleys have "shrink wrap" full-body ads.
I wonder if tourists who are waiting for the Green line ever let the yellow shrink-wrapped cars go by thinking it's the wrong train?
Yea,Portland Ore has those damm adds plastered all over the sides..........looks like a damm circus carr,the cars are attractive without that stuff on them.
London had a C stock train (Circle Line etc.) sponsored by Yellow Pages for a while. It looked awful but has now been repainted.
We don't have any wrapped rapid transit cars here in Boston. But, we do wrap LRVs, buses, and 4 commuter rail double deckers.
The DDs run on the Worcester Line in a set, all 4 identically wrapped for Addidas. I must say it's quite a sight, garish or artistic depending on your point of view.
I don't care for it, but it's "free money" for the MBTA.
I think about the closest NYC ever came was the "Train to the Plane" R-46s that had that slogan on the blue band below the windows. They also had the R-33/36 fleet painted for the 1964 World's Fair, with "State" slogans on them, and a gold R-16 painted for the 50th anniversary of the subway in 1954. The IRT also indulged in a bit of self-promotion with its orange "Ride the open air elevated" cars in the 1930s.
Close, but hardly paid "advertising".
What i think looks crapy is the billboards that cover the elevateds that cross streets,i mean come on......that distracts from the area...
I hope we never see those awful wrapped cars here in NYC. IMHO they are on a par with the so-called "artwork" plastered all over the subways in they 70's and look just as bad. Call it graffiti brought into the future.
Peace,
Andee
MUCH better than grafitti. Someone pays good money to put it there, and that's all I need. Hell, sell ad space on the floor tiles, on the turnstile displays, on the conductors uniforms. I don't care how 'ugly' it looks. It keeps the fare down, and reduces the need for public subsidy. Any income from legal sources is good income!
-Hank
Sorry I do not agree, we are bombarded with enough corporate logo feces as it is we do not need anymore.
Peace,
Andee
Well, I hope you enjoy living in your windowless hole with no TV, Radio, newspaper, or web access. Face it, advertising pays a lot of the bills. It's what makes broadcast TV and radio possible. It's how newspapers and magazines really make their money (what you pay generally is less than 25% of the cost of production of a single issue) It's how innumerable free websites make their information available to you. And it helps keep the fare and subsidy levels down on treansit systems. The more advertising you see, the healthier the system is. If the TA started wrapping cars and buses (charging about $3-5G per car for the ads) they could easily afford to make any number of improvements to the system. There should be no objection on any level for 'wrap' type ads. Fare-paying pax like them because it keeps their direct cost down. People who never take the subway like it because it keeps the amount of their tax dollars being funneled to transit down. Anything that can improve the bottom line without an impact on safety should be tried.
-Hank
I said we had enough corporate logo feces already. I did not say that we should do away with what we have. I am fully aware that advertising is needed to some degree.
Peace,
Andee
If I'm not mistaken, full wrap ads are prohibited on city buses for safety reasons.
Funny, I just asked why city busses aren't wrapped and here is the answer.
But isn't it strange? Other major cities can have their busses (I'm not sure about trains) wrapped without safety being an issue. The express bus lines have their busses wrapped also and they operate in NYC.
It makes you think that there is more to it than the safety issue. Either that, or the other cities and express lines are not considering safety over the revenue potential. I doubt if other cities can claim that they have such a control on crime that safety hasn't even crossed their minds. After all, it is NYC that has had one of the largest drops in crime, right? Just my two cents.
i agree. besides the bus driver is the one in control and there are people on the bus who would help out on what ever is going on the bus. besides nyc is the lowest in crime. so wrapping shouldn't be a problem. the DOT buses are already rapped.
The safety issue has to do with visibility - not that a city bus is exactly invisible, but having them all essentially the same appearance makes for better recognition by other drivers, especially those with a fondness for squeezing by on the right. Do that around a truck and it's not too bad - no one except the idiot doing it is going to get hurt when the truck pulls toward the curb - but do it around a bus and there are a lot of potential injuries. So ease of recognition is important.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Aren't they on some Queens Transit Surface buses?
Yes there are...
Libery lines too
There's one Command MCI Classic wearing a full wrap (long-live MCI!).
This must have been already talked about on Sub/Bustalk but....
Why aren't NYC busses wrapped? It seems that other cities do it without it being an impact on safety. The express bus lines also get wrapped and they operate in NYC.
THE TA DIDNT WANT TO DO IT, DON'T KNOW WHY. IT WOULD LOOK REALLY NICE ON THE RTS AND ON THE ORIONS OR THE MCI AT LEAST. iF SOME OF THE PRIVATE LINES DID IT ON THE BULK OF THEIR LOCAL BUSES(LIKE GREEN LINES FOR INSTANCE), CAN YOU IMAGINE THE REVENUE THE CITY WOULD RECIEVE AND MORE MONEY WOULD GO TO NEWER BUSES?
ALSO, IN CHICAGO, THEY HAVE ADVERTISNG ON THE SUBWAY CARS THAT ISNT ON THE WINDOWS. WHY DON'T THEY DO IT HERE?
We already have them on some of the Queens buses.
Not only is it an eyesore, but those ads render it impossible to see clearly out the windows of the bus...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Planning types are furiously against advertizing signs. Unless they have been there for 30 or more years, in which case they want them landmarked.
See all those billboards going up in the city? They are ALL ILLEGAL under zoning. No one cares. All that can be done by ordinance is fine them $25 a day, but they are making many times that, so they don't mind. The head of City Planning wants to increase the fines, but the billboard interests have paid off the City Council.
I'm just going to repeat myself, clearly this time. I'd rather see ads than a fare rise.
-Hank
If ads produce such great revenue then how come the TA does away with them when they remodel stations (ie, CPW/81st St, 110th St, 161st St/River Ave, 34th St/8th Ave, 34th St/6th Ave to name a few). All of these stations used to have ads on the platforms and mezzanines but when they were remodeled the ads were done away with.
Peace,
Andee
Station ads may not be worth the cost of placing/maintaining, since they tend to be defaced easier than the ads on the trains themselves. At the same time, shrink-wrapping an ad on the outside of the car might be too tempting a target for the subway scrachiti artists, who might start putting slashes and rips in the wrap. That would make those ads too much of a hassle to maintain to justify their use.
Advertising takes in revenue, to be sure, but not nearly enough to be a factor in the decision whether or not to raise the fare.
David
Instead of a full-wrap ad, maybe just a decal ("This subway car brought to you by Buick"), no bigger than the MTA logo-decal, next to the doors (where people congregate to shove their way on).
It might look like graffiti, but at least it would be revenue-producing graffiti.
Exactly. Corporate Graffiti. It still stinks.
I have seen trolley buses in Lithuania which have been painted so that they essentially become a rolling ad for whatever product or service they're promoting. Examples include Coca Cola, with the word "Gerkite" (which means "drink") above the Coke logo, 7-Up, Safeguard soap, an FM radio station, McDonald's (went to one in Vilnius two years ago - it was a blast ordering in Lithuanian) and believe it or not, Nestle's Quik. I've got photos of these buses, if I can find them.
Pittsburgh streetcars were rolling billboards for a single product back in the 1950's!! It's not new!! At one point Ptiisburgh Railways had 1/4 of the PCC fleet painted for one product or another.
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Hi Folks,
I just recently took the MTA Train operators exam and would like to get some more information about this position. Upon finishing training, what kind of certification do you recieve? Is it a FRA license or is it a inhouse certification? What is the pay scale for a 1st year motorman? Can you transfer over from one agency to another with in the MTA, for example transfering as a motorman from TA to LIRR as a engineer with more training expected? Please email me any answers .....
Respectfully Submitted,
PETER
In-house certification, for what i'ts worth. The NYC subway is not under FRA jurisdiction, so they don't license us. Your first week will be at minimum wage, the rest of your training will be at $20.40 +5%, the remainder of your first year at $21.21 + 5% (That 5% being the recently negotiated contract raise). No, you can't transfer from agency to agency. You can take a leave of absence from one job to work at another, but must decide within a year which one you want.
Don't wait to become a TO from the last test. It will take at least a year for the list to be certified. With the answer key posted, you are now in the protest period of the exam. Once that closes (you should have got that date when you took the exam) the list will be out sometime...
Don't count on it. I took the last promotion test in July, was called for school car in mid Sept. and have been on the road since New Year's Eve. The list forom that test has yet to be certified, but TA claims to be really short of TOs.
_Dramatis Personae_: a city bureaucrat, and the CEO of a Fortune 500 corporations with its headquarters in Manhattan.
Bureaucrat: Mr. Big Shot, as the leader of one of New York's largest employers, you're entitled to advance notice of a major change that'll be coming soon. In order to reduce traffic in Manhattan, and encourage transit use, the city has decided to restrict private automobile use in Manhattan during weekdays. We understand that this will cause significant inconvenience for your business, but trust that you will accept it.
CEO: No problem, Mr. Bureaucrat. You're right that it'll be a huge headache for my company. Heavens knows, being in New York *already* is a headache! It's so expensive ... and let me tell you, we could save tens of millions of dollars each year by taking one of these offers that Atlanta and Phoenix keep dangling in front of us. I mean, what with the Internet and Federal Express and everything, my company could operate from just about anywhere. But New York - well, New York is a special place. You've got art museums and symphony orchestras and fancy botiques. We could never leave that, so we're willing to pay the "New York premium" just to stay here. And I'm sure that my company's shareholders will understand.
Unfortunately, for about 30 years the politicians in the City of New York actually believed that to be the case.
[re old belief that companies would never leave NYC regardless of costs]
[Unfortunately, for about 30 years the politicians in the City of New York actually believed that to be the case.]
Even more unfortunately, many politicians still believe it. They suffer from that "New York is different" delusion, which of course is aided and abetted by the Most Important Newspaper in the World (ha ha!), and think that normal rules of economics don't apply between the Hudson and East rivers. I fear they'll never learn, at least not the easy way. It'll probably take another corporate exodus during the next economic downturn before some of these idiot politicians learn otherwise. And then it'll be too late. Schmucks.
What people believe is more likely the reverse.
Mr. Big Shot: I we don't have to pay taxes, we will create lots of new jobs, but if we do have to pay taxes, we'll leave.
City Bureaucrat: No problem. We'll just have a school system that spends 20 percent of the national average, and tax new businesses to death to make up the shortfall.
SIX YEARS LATER
Mr. Big Shot: We've really enjoyed that tax break, but because New York is so uncompetitive, we're had to reduce employment. If you demand the money back, or fail to give us another tax break, we'll move out altogether.
City Bureacrat: No problem, we counted whatever jobs you still have as "retained" in our jobs created and retained number. Have some more money.
I'll tell you of another dialogue we'll never hear either. That's Bill and Hillary Clinton telling each other the truth. Oh, good God, there I go with politics again. Ok, how's this: We'll never hear Hillary carry on a conversation with me on a subway train because she won;t ride on one since he;s an elitist, and me in California can;t get to New York very often. And if I did, I probably would spit in her eye and charge her for an eyewash.
Also, we'll never hear Rudy G. fessing up to the fact that his first marriage was to his cousin. Or that his father did time in prison for forgery.
Notice how Rudy will side with Hillary about the press prying into their personal lives now that he's a candidate? Our Mayor is running scared about some of the skeletons rattling in his closet.
Now THAT would be REAL news for a change.
Doug aka BMTman
OK Doug, we're going to brand Mayor Rudy because his father was a crook. We'll just pass it down from generation to generation. He's blood of a relative who's no good so we'll just brand him. Ever heard of Joseph Stalin? His law was that anyone sent by him to a labor camp meant that his children could also be sent to a labor camp because they were relatives of an enemy of the state. Yours sounds a little similar and that has to be considered ridiculous. Rudy was a prosecutor who did a great deal of good of us Italian-Americans by sending some of the top mafiosos up the river to rot, the same bastards that have given honest Italian-Americans a bad name over the years. If you can't give Rudy any credit, then you're as unfair to him as I'm to Hillary. But at least I admit it. Have a good day and keep in touch.
Rudy sucks. I give Clinton credit.
That's a beautiful, eloquent statement.
How does one go about making a nomination for the Pulitzers? Because you sir, deserve one more than anybody else.
You and Mike make a wonderful team. Maybe you could invite him to Pigs Island where you can both frolic, and bring Hillary along with you while you're about it. By the way, where the hell is Pigs or Royal Island?
Fred, I think he was being sarcastic to Mike's statement.
Besides, Clinton is the funniest president America has had since Nixon. When he left office, I'm sure all the late night comedians thought his record would stand like Lou Gehrig's -- never to be broken. Who knew Clinton would be the Cal Ripken of presidental comedy material?
Give him credit for that.
I do J and I feel like a perfect ass for not seeing the Mr. Pigs of Royal Is. statement. I'm sending him an apology right away.
WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????
I'm sorry if I had to shout, but not only have you failed to note my sarcasm, you insulted me by actually insinuating that I am in any way afffiliated with that bitch or her minions.
By the way, a pig is the name of a certain type of farm animal
Long Island wants to be on it's own, let them, build a canal.
Royal Island is Brooklyn and Queens.
You got me good and proper and I deserve every bit of it. You have my apology is CAPTAL LETTERS. I felt like a perfect jerk when it was pointed out to me that there was sarcasm in your response. Sorry I didn't pick it up. It's ben raining like hell around here and maybe it influenced by brain. I owe you one. Hope I'm forgiven..
All right, that's fine. So long as you know I'm not in the Hillary camp. The fact that you failed to detect the sarcasm is fine.
Credit for what? Being a moral degenerate and a first class liar?
Give Clinton credit for encouraging the global corporate dictatorship and not throwing greenspan out on his butt in the first 5 seconds like I would have done The crash is coming, Be afraid, Be very afraid
02/16/2000
John J. Blair,
The crash is coming? I see that with the price of heating oil and soon gasoline on the rise, I feel there's hell to pay. Is this the crash you're talking about? Every time the price of gas rises or is in short supply, the economy goes nuts. We have been enjoying a boom economy for too long, it always seems when things get good, they tend to go bad. Shall I be afraid, very afraid??
Bill Newkirk
I have to say so, Bill. And it's not just the oil price business.
Another ominous sign -- HIP, the tried and true health provider for hundreds of thousands, is reportedly on the road to bankruptcy. Monday's NY Daily News had an article hidden away (of course) on page 14 or something. And you can be sure that other health groups for working families -- like GHI -- are not far behind them. Very scary news indeed....
Doug aka BMTman
Hey, would you rather have a president who is a poor liar and get caught or a persident who is a good liar and the public never finds out the truth. Face it, all presidents lie, some just don't get caught.
I like your thinking there, Joisey.
Doug aka BMTman
There is no record that Abraham Lincoln ever lied to the American people, and Teddy Roosevelt and Harry Truman were honest to a fault. Nice try but it won't wash.
Have you personally verified everything they every said?
Hey Joisey, it's there in the history books and there have been some great historians that have researched these me. If you know of any mendacious uttering of any of these me, please enlighten us. I'm sure you will fail in the attempt. Have a nice weekend.
Hey Joisey, it's there in the history books and there have been some great historians that have researched these men If you know of any mendacious uttering of any of these me, please enlighten us. I'm sure you will fail in the attempt. Have a nice weekend.
HOW ABOUT NIXON, And Senile Reagan who s wife had to have fortune tell her what to do, And the BUSH Family, whose younger brother the only way he was kept out of Prison for fraud was because of Daddy being the VP or Pres.
Rudy does s--k. Hillary I guess doesn't, otherwise there wouldn't have been a need for Monica.
Fred, are you even from NYC?
Originally. I was born in Queens and lived in Brooklyn and Queens until I was 14. I have lived in California for 45 years, but my love of the New York subway system got me onto this website and keeps me in touch with New York events. Why? If Hillary can infuse herself into New York affairs, then so can I. I'm at least a New Yorker by birth.
I give him some credit for cleaning up this town. The word is SOME. Not all credit, as some people do who genuflect at the mere mention of Rudy's name.
Doug aka BMTman
Well Doug, it's at least a start. I still have a lot of hope for you. BTW, do you work for the New York transit system?
No. The salaries there wouldn't pay the rent let alone allow me to buy brass HO-scale subway cars ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
>>>>He's blood of a relative who's no good so we'll just brand him. Ever heard
of Joseph Stalin? His law was that anyone sent by him to a labor camp meant that his children could also
be sent to a labor camp because they were relatives of an enemy of the state. <<<
I hear that some lunatics are actually castigating McCain because, allegedly, there is a slaveholder or two among his family.... centuries ago. It's ridiculous.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Here's a worse one -- there's a rumor going around that the tabloids (Enquirer, Star) are looking to see if McCain has a "Clinton/Gingrich problem" if you know what I mean.
It's going to be a nasty eight months.
Poor John McCain. I feel sorry for the guy. The millions that a dufus like Bush can spend on smearing the name of someone with a descent character and genuine leadership qualities is one of the many inequalities when a 'David' takes on a 'Goliath' in American politics.
Doug aka BMTman
Actually, I don't know where this one's coming from -- Obviously, if this stuff hits early it helps Bush, but those tabs are vetted by Clinton's lawyer, David Kendall, so who knows? It may turn out to be as true as Clinton fathering that black child in Arkansas (the DNA didn't work out) or Bush being bailed out of a cocaine bust in Houston by a Republican judge (when there were none at the time).
Doug: Don't worry about McCain, he can take care of himself and he'll give Bush all he can dish out. I'd be worried about the Democrats. Johnny Mac is winning over a lot of Dems and Independents to his cause and could blast the gorey gone if he gets the GOP nomination. I think this guy is for real.
Ever think that the reasons why the demos and ind. are crossing over to vote for McCain, because they don t like Georgie II.
I've got to get off this politics crap. I'm goaded into it every time. But you can bet that Pelham 123 or the Manhattan Bridge will not be part of my resume. I'm sick of those as well.
Hey Willie Sea Beach Fred lives near you at@@@@@
Here's something you'll never hear at a public hearing concerning subway extensions or new lines (2nd Ave., N to LGA, etc.):
JUST DO IT!!!
Actually I remember at the 2nd of the LGA meetings (in Manhattan), several people got up to say basically "Just build it already!" to the MTA. They were, of course, far outnumbered by residents from various Queens neighborhoods all insisting that a routing to LGA through the *other* Queens neighborhoods would be better than putting it through their own.
To hell with all these NIMBY idiots - just BUILD IT! If it was my house they were building it near I'd probably be out there cheering on the crew and picking out tiles for the station mezzanines.
Wayne
If you live nowhere near a subway, I feel for you. I used to be like that when I was younger, since I live in the @#%$ suburbs. Now, I have the pleasure of commuting to college from the @#$% suburbs on the subway. If you don't live near transit, how often do you get to ride it?
I live nowhere near the subway.
I ride it bidaily.
I live quite a bit from the subway--In Memphis, TN. The closest system would probably be Atlanta. That's why I make it a point to visit the subway when we go to a large city on vacation.
This July, I am probably going to make it up to Boston. Hope to try out the historic subway system!
i am with this NOTHING OF A RAIL SYSTEM here in "" lost angeles" california!!
especially ( the subway to nowhere ) the red line .......
How abount living in a area twice the size of Los Angeles with a Population of 110.000, where the only public transportation is for 5 miles in 2 places. One between a resort town and the Major Hotels and is sponsored by the Hotel Association, and the other are shopping specials in the business section which only have 1/3 of the population The rest of the county you have to have a car, bike or walk. so traffic is as bad as the rest of the country during rush hours. Maui is the only county in Hawaii with out public transportation. In Honolulu has one of the best bus systems in the country. Go figure
I'm currently living in a small college town in Massachusetts. No subways out here, but we have an bus system that is quite extensive considering the size of the town. The buses are free of charge during the school year, and are driven by the local college students. This makes for a very accessible transit system; I don't think twice about hopping a bus into town from the school, even though the distance isn't that far. The service is much better then that of the city I was originally from, and it's a lot cheaper (it's free- Worcester busses cost $1). The town is much too small to handle the traffic that would result from the students and residents having to rely on cars, and the bus system does a good job of relieving such pressure. The only quirk is that the buses ARE driven by college students, so it's not unusual to run over a curb once in a while.
[The only quirk is that the buses ARE driven by college students, so it's not unusual to run over a curb once in a while.]
Better than running over a student once in a while.
Where I live at the only way to get around is by car or taxi. Consider yourself lucky to live some where where there are alot more modes of transportation and at your convience at any time. Thank you for reading my response!
It isn't Amherst by any chance, is it? I know UMass has shuttlebuses; in fact UConn (my alma mater) bought one such bus secondhand from UMass for their system back in, IIRC, 1977.
Here in metro Denver, we have light rail, soon to be expanded with a new extension opening in July. I ride on it from time to time if I have to go downtown.
I get my subway fix in New York once a year for a few days in October.
You guessed right. Amherst it is.
Hey you're in Amhearst! I have 2 friends going to Hampshire and they love the free bus.
I'm feeling deprived of the NYCTA, but I'm enjoying WMATA Metrorail.
Wayne
No subway here in Champaign-Urbana, IL. The closest subway I know of is up in Chicago. I do try to find an excuse to ride the 'L' when I make it up to Chicago, but that's often difficult as I come by car.
I make it back to NYC a few times a year, so I'm not entirely deprived.
The Champaign-Urbana Mass Transit District runs a decent bus service (quite good for a city this size, and it's free to students, but it's nothing compared to NYCT). The campus chilled water pipes are being replaced around campus right now; with all the gaping holes in the streets, I think they might as well install a subway system while they're at it. (A four-track subway system with express trains, naturally!)
Hi
I was wondering if there are any new updates with the R-142?
I figure that they're still being tested out till late spring. But how are they doing? Anybody know?
Are they still on the Dyre Ave testing track or are they being tested all over the system now? If they are still on Dyre, I wanted to go there and maybe catch a glimpse of them. What is the best time?
Thanks.
They're in testing mode. I got my first look at the Kawasaki units making an overnight run just last week. 7216-20 were on the road for testing. With a few exceptions, I'd say that they are nearly similar to their Bombardier units. Do you know that Kawasaki Units 7211-15 came out yesterday for testing in the daylight? They weren't even on the Dyre Av line for testing, they went to some unknown location.
The Source pointed out the possibility of the new tech cars being tested on the Flushing Line at sometime (not confirmed). If that were the case, I'd expect the new tech cars to have dual trip cocks since they wouldn't have anything to couple to other than a diesel with an adapter for coupling. Dual trip cocks are a must. Couple an R33 single to the front of the R142 train for movement on the B Division? Sure. It would look kind of weird though. Anyone know for sure if the cars are capable of MU'ing with the older fleets? Provided that the couplers are the same, would it be feasible?
-Stef
The R-142s have, IIRC, Ohio Brass couplers similar to those found on the R-44s and R-46s. Consequently, they are not compatible with any other IRT equipment except perhaps the R-110As. An adapter would be necessary if one were to attempt to couple a single R-33 unit.
They aren't compatible with any equipment, period.
Hi, i'm looking for sounds to download from ny or philly subway systems. if you can help me I would appreciate it, thankyou
I don't know what kind of sounds you are want. I recorded sounds from the R9's back when they were on the CC and LL lines, and also the old Philly Broad Street Cars. I don't have them to download, but I copied them onto 60 minute audio cassettes, which I will send free to anyone who wants them. I have sent them to several people on the website, and with the exception of 3 cases of madness that followed shortly after receiving the tapes, no one has complain.
I also went mad after listening to the tapes. That droning sound, and heypaul's subliminal messaging killed the once great DEFY REASON!
I will never stop plugging that tape. It brings the R-1/9s back to life, especially for those of us like myself who remember them well.
If anything, I'll drive everybody else nuts by playing that tape as loudly as I do. Now, if I only had a subwoofer...
One of these days I'm going to post those .wav files to nyc.transit from Paul's tape. I keep saying I will, but I'm a lazy ...
Can I have a copy of that tape sent up here? I'll put it online. I have the equipment hooked. The address is as follows, also applicable to anyone who wants to send me anything, as long as it isn't a mailbomb or obscene.
David Shanske
Terrace 12 Room 317
953 Danby Rd.
Ithaca, NY 14850-7212
David--- I will mail the tape out tomorrow morning, as soon as I receive a written release relieving me of responsibility for any worsening of your mental state. You're a gutsy guy putting out your address on the site--- since there are many people on this site almost as weird as I am.
Keep an eye on this message board, in case some malcontent announces a walking tour of the LIRR Ithaca Branch.
Seriously, I hope you enjoy the sounds of the R9's and a few rumblings of the old cars on the Philly Broad Street line.
Actually, Ithaca, NY has several disused train lines, formerly of the DL&W and the Lehigh Valley. The only trains that still run through are coal trains fro Sayre, PA. You are welcome to come up and walk them. I've always wanted to.
Until it was repaved a few years ago, there were still tracks poking through the pavement of the parking lot just east of Cornell's Traffic Bureau building on Maple Avenue. Was that the site of the former East Ithaca station? I know it was somewhere around there.
Oh, and as for that written release for my sanity, I can refer you to my reserved suite at Creedmoor.
(I'm joking. I'm perfectly sane. My psychiatrist can back that up.)
Normally, I agree with Mark Green as often as Lou Piniella agrees with an umpire. But he may be onto something here. From this week's Bayside Times:
New York City Public Advocate Mark Green has issued a report complaining that residents of Queens and Brooklyn pay more to take the Long Island Rail Road than Long Island residents pay to travel similar distances.
“When it comes to the LIRR and Metro-North, New York City’s hard-earned tax dollars are on a one way trip - out of town," Green said. “The city pays for suburban commuters to enjoy affordable and convenient service while New Yorkers are forced to pay up to $12.50 to get to and from work. That is patently unfair.”
Green called for the inequity to be rectified.
“The Metropolitan Transportation Administration must take immediate steps to deliver parity to the system,” he said.
Green's report, “Railroaded: How Poor Service, Decrepit Stations and High Fares Keep NYC Residents Off the LIRR and Metro-North,” also found many LIRR stations within New York City suffer from poor service and inconvenient and even hazardous conditions.
Green said the situation exists despite the fact that New York City contributes nearly half of the annual local operating money for the LIRR and Metro-North, or $69 million as of 1998.
Green said that on certain routes, passengers who take LIRR trains in Queens and Brooklyn must pay as much as three times more than passengers in Nassau and Suffolk Counties who take trips of comparable distances.
For instance, the report said a passenger boarding an LIRR train in Laurelton, Queens for a 6.2-mile trip to Rockville Centre on Long Island pays $5, although someone taking the LIRR from Rockville Centre to Bellmore, Long Island - a 6.3-mile trip entirely within Nassau County - costs only $1.75.
He said no such discount exists for those traveling entirely within Queens. For example, a ticket for the 6.7-mile trip from Forest Hills to Laurelton - entirely within Queens — costs $5.50.
Green said the problem with the Long Island Rail Road does not end with fare disparities. He said service on some lines is inadequate.
A number of New York City stations on the LIRR have very little service, even when they are far from direct subway service to
midtown Manhattan, Green said.
Although many LIRR trains run through the St. Albans station during the morning rush hour, only three of them stop to pick up passengers, the report said. It said LIRR trains stop only once every 30 minutes at the Hollis station during the morning rush hour.
The report said New York City pays what Green called “a dramatically disproportionate share of direct funding for LIRR service.”
New York City contributed 48 percent in local operating money in 1998 while suburban counties contributed 52 percent, even though 90 percent of passengers come from suburbs and 10 percent from New York City, Green said.
Investigators for the public advocate said some LIRR stations within New York City are so poorly maintained as to create a safety hazard, adding that eight of 22 stations surveyed had dangerous conditions, 11 of them had no benches for passengers to sit on and 10 had no station signs or posted schedules.
Don't worry, Kevin. There's no reason for your streak (or mine, for that matter) to come to an end.
You can pretty much refute Green's issues point by point.
re: the Laurelton to RVC example. Sure it's $5.00 peak from RVC to Laurelton, but it's also $3.25 off peak. That's not such a big difference from the $1.75 RVC to Bellmore. When you have zone based pricing, you'll have differences like that. Green should consider that a trip from Jamaica to Rosedale (4.7 miles) or Little Neck to Flushing (5.2 miles) costs just $2.50 peak and $1.75 off-peak. These fares within Queens are likely set higher than the bus fare precisely to keep people on the buses and keep drivers employed and routes operating.
re: little service -- Stations that have passengers get service. Occasionally my train stops at St. Albans on the way home. I've often wondered how many people are using that station. The other night I was standing near the door, so I poked my head out and counted. Picture this, a 12 car train pulls into St. Albans (only the first 4 cars platform at St. Albans) probably carrying 1200 people or more. 4 people get off. None get on. This is at the tail end of the rush hour. Not at 3:00 AM. Rosedale and Laurelton get plenty of service, as does Queens Village. That's because people actually use those stations. Hollis is probably a more important weekend station than it is a rush hour station. Given the demographics of that neighborhood, there aren't many commuters to the Penn Station area (especially given competition from express buses); but Hollis probably has more passengers on the weekend and at night than many other stations on the Hempstead line -- and during those times every train stops at Hollis.
re: source of operating subsidies -- sure, 90% of the passengers live on LI. But where the people live is a red herring. Should people who live in New Jersey have to pay a higher subway fare? Should New Jersey have to contribute to the subway subsidy? Of course not. The cost of subsidies should be borne proportionately by the municipalities which benefit from the service. NYC benefits by having it's roads less congested and getting people to the corporations which pay the taxes to keep the city operating. To get the true benefit, you should count each passenger twice, once where they board and once where they disembark. Those figures are probably closer to 50/50, although when you consider the Port Washington line and the Brooklyn to Jamaica/SE Queens passengers they may be more heavily skewed towards the city. So if the city is only paying 48%, they're getting off cheap. But I suppose Mr. Green won't want to make up for those past injustices.
re: dangerous conditions -- I'd need a definition to refute. Given Green's history, "dangerous conditions" probably means "electric trains moving at high rates of speed"
re: lack of station signs -- I've never seen a station in Queens or Brooklyn (at least not now that the LIC branch is not in revenue service) without a sign. Heck, even St. Albans has signs.
re: no posted schedule -- can't comment on that. but 10 out of 22 not having a posted schedule (or at least not having an accessible posted schedule; i.e. posted, but in a locked station house) is probably about par for the course across all LIRR stations.
Summary -- Mark Green is doing what he does best, which is making noise when there's no problem to solve. Green will never become Mayor because he tries to create solutions to non-issues by strong arm tactics and claims of "discrimination" and "unfair". Most New Yorkers see right through it.
Couldn't say it better myself!!!
Jeff: I've seen this guy on TV talk shows. Is he really that much of a dork? Sure seems that way to me. Maybe when Hillary and Bill bust up, she and Green can get together. They would make a terrific team.
[Maybe when Hillary and Bill bust up, she and Green can get together. They would make a terrific team.]
Ugh, what a ghastly thought. Thank God she's too old to breed.
[Maybe when Hillary and Bill bust up, she and Green can get together. They would make a terrific team.]
Ugh, what a ghastly thought. Thank God she's too old to breed.
It's not impossible.
[[Ugh, what a ghastly thought. Thank God she's (Hillary) too old to breed.]
[It's not impossible.]
Oh please, why bring up the chance of something so horrible. Not that it's too likely - Hillary's past 50, and the number of women who give birth in their fifties is less than 100 per year in the entire country. Of course, there's always that donor-egg option*, but at least then the rug rat wouldn't be genetically related to Hillary. Nature vs. nuture, anyone?
* = Hillary couldn't use eBay to seek out a donor egg. eBay recently added human eggs to the _verboten_ list, along with such items as firearms, warez, dirty underwear and explosives. Sorry.
Maybe Bill could recruit a donor for her.
[Maybe Bill could recruit a donor for her.]
Monica's probably free these days ...
How about a mix between CLinton and Rudy?
Conservative who wants change and up to date on the times.
Personally, I think that Republicans should get more with the times.
They should talk more about the things that effect people today.
David: You are a soil sport. Here we are having fun on the WEB and you have to go and spoil it. If you were honest about it, you would admit that some of these notes were really funny. But you won;t, will you. Well ahhhhh OK!
Attaboy Big Pete. And don't forget to tell Davis what a party pooper he is. Maybe we can fix him up with Monica. I've heard she's lost a lot of weight and has become a real looker again. No I said looker, not hooker. Then again...........
You never know -- maybe it would be like that old TV show with Michael J. Fox (Family Ties) where the two former hippies have the ultra-conservative kid. Wouldn't that serve them right??
You many not know this, Fred, but you want Mark Green to be our next Mayor.
Mark Green is what I call a "Rip-Van-Winkle" liberal. He fell asleep in 1973, and hasn't adjusted his views to anything that has happened since. He wanted to be a Senator, but kept losing, and in need of a job he ran for the meaningless and powerless "Office of Public advocate."
When the charter was revised in 1989, the City Council President position, like the borough presidents, became worthless. The charter folks decided they needed to keep jobs for these folks, so they kept the borough presidents and converted the City Council President to the Office of Public Advocate. Green took the job which retained one characteristic of City Council President -- being next in line for the Mayor.
So if Rudy wins, Green is in for the last year of his term, a huge advantage. Green will presumably sell out to everyone in sight to get re-elected. Those against Green, at the city and state level, will do all they can to hurt the city to damage his changes.
I know some people who are voting for Hillary to keep Green out. In fact, in some neighborhoods, the Dems are planning to run against Green to elect Hillary.
Now that is a revolting development. Yes I want Rudy in the US Senate, and Hillary back in Arkansas, or Illinois, to Hades, for that matter. Is there any way Rudy can be elected and Green be kept out. He would be disastrous for New York. So I've been told.
How is a city official impeached with a unicameral council?
I don't think he'd want to be married to a NY Senator.
Even the job Green has shows the peculiarities of NYC politics.
The position was (until 1993, IIRC) City Council president, but when the City's 1989 Charter stripped the powers of the Board of Estimate, the former City Council President job became meaningless.
Rather than eliminate a moribund and expensive political slot, the City, in its wisdom, created "Public Advocate."
In theory, this elected position is supposed to act as a balance to the power of the Mayor (so what is the City Council for?).
This sounds good in theory, but is a theory that was dumped the U.S. Government. In the early days of the republic, the person with the most electoral votes became President, while the one with the second greatest number became VP.
This almost guaranteed that the VP would be a political opponent of the President, and that if the President croaked, the Presidency would fall into the hands of the opposing party (also giving the opposition a vested interest in the President's disability).
This is what will happen in NYC if Giuliani enters the Senate this coming Winter.
Under the City Charter, or state or federal law, does Rudy have to resign as Mayor to be sworn in as Senator? I know that historically there are cases where people held more than one office, but I don't know if this particular circumstance would be allowed under current law.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[ Does Rudy have to resign as Mayor to be Senator?
That's a really interesting question. I doubt even he has the kishkas to try that, but it would make an interesting political year even more so.
All I hope is that he is that kind of a dilemma because it means he has beaten that carpetbagger. I think under those circumstances the city could stomach Mark Green for a year.
[Hollis is probably a more important weekend station than it is a rush hour station. Given the demographics of that neighborhood, there aren't many commuters to the Penn Station area (especially given competition from express buses); but Hollis probably has more passengers on the weekend and at night than many other stations on the Hempstead line -- and during those times every train stops at Hollis.]
For what it's worth, in over two years of commuting on the LIRR I have *never* seen anyone waiting on the inbound Hollis platform during morning rush hour. And I've generally looked, out of curiosity, as from the start of my commuting it seemed like Hollis station lacked any _raison d'etre_.
Not seeing anyone on the platform at Hollis during the morning rush shouldn't be that surprising. For $1.50 you can take a bus to the E or F train and have the subway drop you within a few blocks of your destination. Or you could take the LIRR to Penn and then pay your $1.50 to take a subway to where you're going. The LIRR/subway connection probably takes just as long or longer to most midtown Manhattan destinations.
Weekends and nights are different. I used to frequently travel from Flatbush Ave. to Oceanside at times when the Flatbush ticket office closed. Frequently the train was a Flatbush to Hempstead and I'd change at Jamaica. As the conductor walked through collecting fares, I'd guess that at least half the people were heading for Hollis. 75% of the people getting on at East New York and Nostrand were headed for Hollis. It makes sense, though. Bus and subway headways during those hours make combo trips undesirable, and bus/subway routing between Brooklyn and Hollis is generally inconvenient to begin with. The LIRR provides a fast, direct and scheduled trip. There's a similar situation with Locust Manor, although Locust Manor does have enough rush hour commuters to warrant reasonable service.
Chuck
Chuck
I suspect that at one point, Hollis had greater patronage. It's one of the few stations with a special road that runs right up to the platform area (possibly used for carriages at one point?)
Also, the concrete fence at Hollis is exactly the same style as the one at Broadway (my home station).
www.forgotten-ny.com
[I suspect that at one point, Hollis had greater patronage. It's one of the few stations with a special road that runs right up to the platform area (possibly used for carriages at one point?)]
I'd say that probably was the case. The stretch between Jamaica and the Nassau line once had five stations - Union Hall, Hollis, Hillside, Bellaire and Queens Village. A fairly clear indication, as I see it, that ridership in the area must've been quite heavy at one time. And note also that until about 50 years ago, Suffolk County was relatively unpopulated and hence probably didn't have much ridership. Even Nassau didn't have anything like today's population. Yet the LIRR's total ridership 50 or 75 years ago was significantly higher than it is today. Higher ridership from the Queens (and Brooklyn) stations must have accounted for much of the difference.
Doesn't Westbury have a ramp/road up to the platform?
re: source of operating subsidies -- sure, 90% of the passengers live on LI. But where the people live is a red herring. Should people who live in New Jersey have to pay a higher subway fare? Should New Jersey have to contribute to the subway subsidy? ...
The source of the operating subsidies is the municpality's tax base. Do tax rates change depending on a person's residence, as opposed to their place of employment? Do commuters pay the same rate as NYC residents on the NYC Income Tax? Of course not. They used to pay 1/5 the rate of city residents for the same tax. However, that became too burdensome for the commuters and was repealed without consulting NYC.
Your argument regarding the lack of discrimination for fares would be more consistent, if all riders shared in providing the subsidy. Are you proposing that commuters should pay NYC Income Tax - just like NYC residents?
The costs of running a railroad train principally depend on the number of stations, trains and distance travelled. Any rational examination of the LIRR fare structure shows that other factors such as origin and destination have a strong influence. This becomes even more obvious, when a comparison is made with fare structure before the LIRR was purchased by NY State. The discrimination against obvious to all but those afraid of paying their fair share.
I can't match your knowledge of how the subsidies are generated from tax revenue, I was only suggesting that a reasonable alternative approach might be a better way to determine whether the funding responsibility of NYC and the suburbs was equitable.
Can I assume that we agree that Mark Green's original statement -- that the city is overcharged for the LIRR subsidy because 90% of the riders live on Long Island but the city pays 48% of the subsidy is a gross oversimplification of the issue. I'd suggest that a more equitable division is far closer to what is actually paid than the 90/10 split Green suggests would be equitable.
Regarding the fare structure, there is no doubt that there is far more at work here than simple distance. There's supply and demand (generally plenty of excess capacity once trains get past their first stop east of Jamaica -- unless it's St. Albans or Hollis!!), there's non-competition among MTA authorities (the intra LI fare was set just above the LI Bus fare; the Zone 3 only fare is just above the NYCTA bus fare and the Zone 1 to Zone 3 off-peak is just above the old "two-fare zone" bus/subway charge. Then you've got all sorts of attempts to attract riders to underutilized lines (Hempstead / Far Rock / West Hempstead) by making the entire line Zone 4. Still, Green's analysis falls way short of being adequate to address the issue.
Chuck
Chuck
I can't match your knowledge of how the subsidies are generated from tax revenue, I was only suggesting that a reasonable alternative approach might be a better way to determine whether the funding responsibility of NYC and the suburbs was equitable.
The devil is in the details. My steet smarts tell me to watch my pocket, when somebody speaks in such generalities.
Can I assume that we agree that Mark Green's original statement -- that the city is overcharged for the LIRR subsidy because 90% of the riders live on Long Island but the city pays 48% of the subsidy is a gross oversimplification of the issue. I'd suggest that a more quitable division is far closer to what is actually paid than the 90/10 split Green suggests would be equitable.
I will state that Mr. Green's statement may be an oversimplification, however, whether or not it is a gross oversimplification depends on the results of an accurate cost-benefit analysis.
What should not be in dispute is that the LIRR operates move Nassau and Suffolk residents to jobs in the city. It ill serves City residents - even those who might want to work in the suburbs. Just check the schedule.
Let's try a zero-based budgeting approach. The LIRR does not exist. Now propose the service, schedule and fare structure currently in place. Mr. Green's 90/10 split is close to the mark in this context.
"I will state that Mr. Green's statement may be an oversimplification, however, whether or not it is a gross oversimplification
depends on the results of an accurate cost-benefit analysis. "
Absolutely. Unfortunately, defining all of the costs and all of the benefits eventually becomes like one of those exercises people go through to explain why taxpayers should pay millions of dollars for new arenas for sports franchises. Too many benefits are allocated 100% to the project in question, when they really only have marginal relation to the project.
"What should not be in dispute is that the LIRR operates move Nassau and Suffolk residents to jobs in the city. It ill serves City
residents - even those who might want to work in the suburbs. Just check the schedule. "
Absolutely correct in that it ill serves City residents as a means of transportation. I'd suggest that there is definitely a benefit (albeit, immeasurable in a practical sense -- see above) to city residents in providing transportation for suburbanites to the city for the purposes of keeping jobs within the City.
"Let's try a zero-based budgeting approach. The LIRR does not exist. Now propose the service, schedule and fare structure currently in place. Mr. Green's 90/10 split is close to the mark in this context."
Again, I think you're looking at it only from a transportation for city residents point of view -- not in terms of what it does for the city. As opposed to a zero-based budget, consider this approach -- the suburbs declare (how this actually occurs in practice doesn't really matter for the example) that they will fund no more than 40% of the subsidy, leaving the city to pony up the other 60% or shut the railroad down. Does the city fork over the cash? The game works the other way as well. If the powers that be in NYC don't feel they're getting an appropriate return on their investment, they shouldn't make it.
Chuck
...Too many benefits are allocated 100% to the project in question, when they really only have marginal relation to the project...I'd suggest that there is definitely a benefit ... to city residents in providing transportation for suburbanites to the city for the purposes of keeping jobs within the City.
The benefit is even more tenuous, when the jobholders refuse to pay taxes to the city.
I think you're looking at it only from a transportation for city residents point of view -- not in terms of what it does for the city.
I am considering what it does TO the city. Monies raised from the local population, that could be spent improving the city's transportation infrastructure are diverted to supporting non-resident, non-(city)taxpaying LIRR commuters.
The LIRR was quite democratic, prior to nationalization. They did not care about a passenger's place of origin - just whether or not they could make a profit serving him. They did a fair business in areas of Brooklyn and Queens, that did not have subway service. This service has been cut, to provide better service for Nassau and Suffolk based customers. The overcrowding on the Queens Blv and Flushing Lines could have been eliminated by running the local LIRR service that existed previously. Instead, we need a 63rd St connection for $500 million.
If the powers that be in NYC don't feel they're getting an appropriate return on their investment, they shouldn't make it.
I doubt, if the state legislature would ever give NYC such an option.
>>>What should not be in dispute is that the LIRR operates move Nassau and Suffolk residents to jobs in the
city. It ill serves City residents - even those who might want to work in the suburbs. Just check the
schedule. <<<
Amen, brother. LIRR schedules are not made for the convenience of reverse commuters (as I learned while working in Nassau while living in Queens for seven years). However, since they form a vast minority, the LIRR has to cater to the majority.
--Also: the LIRR was prepared to shutter most of its NYC stations in the cancelled train/bus strike in December. I spoke to a couple of MTA employees who told me that any other method would result in crushing crowds on the platforms. I believe the LIRR could have at least hired some private buses to transport people to those rare stations that would have been open.
And, I haven't seen anything in this thread addressing why several stations in the five boroughs are in severe disrepair. Underutilized or not, the stations should be brought up to standard. Perhaps they would see greater ridership if they were?
www.forgotten-ny.com
And, I haven't seen anything in this thread addressing why several stations in the five boroughs are in severe disrepair. Underutilized or not, the stations should be brought up to standard. Perhaps they would see greater ridership if they were?
Stations in the localities are maintained by the counties, the community or the City. Nassau and Suffolk are billed each year by the LIRR for station maintenance. A number of Suffolk stations (nice old ones included) were torn down in Suffolk in the '60s (under the LIRR)because the county wouldn't pay for maintenance.
Despite Mr. Green's numbers, I suspect the City isn't paying to maintain the stations and is then whining they're not maintained.
The City has a long history of shrugging off obligations. When it built its water system (in someone else's backyard) it made a lot of promises to quell local opposition. Among them that it would build and maintain bridges and roadways "in perpetuity" so people could cross and get around what was solid land. The City simply stopped maintaining these and when challenged said "we haven't got the money, too bad!"
Perhaps the City is only willing to pay what it SHOULD cost to maintain the stations. The LIRR is overstaffed and overpaid. Perhaps the city could just take over the job itself.
Perhaps the City is only willing to pay what it SHOULD cost to maintain the stations. The LIRR is overstaffed and overpaid. Perhaps the city could just take over the job itself
Sounds like a good idea to me. Nassau County is always complaining the LIRR costs too much.
Besides, the City is famous for the high state of repair of its public property.
Can you forward that to Mark Green's office?
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>>re: dangerous conditions -- I'd need a definition to refute. Given Green's history, "dangerous conditions"
probably means "electric trains moving at high rates of speed" <<<<
Admittedly the staircases at Murray Hill and Auburndale are in need of repair--badly--and people unsteady on their feet can trip and fall.
The platform at Broadway is crumbling and has been patched with metal plates here and there.
>>>>re: lack of station signs -- I've never seen a station in Queens or Brooklyn (at least not now that the LIC
branch is not in revenue service) without a sign. Heck, even St. Albans has signs.<<<
Green may be getting outdated info. Station signs were taken down at Montauk Branch stations before they were closed. But that was two years ago.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Mark Green is a complete idiot and this last bit of ignorant suburb-bashing demonstrates it.
He's playing the favorite local game of bean-counting, hoping to play to an NYC audience by poring over selective statistics to show prejudice against City voters.
He has the gall to turn around the fact that suburbanites pay confiscatory railroad fares while NYC riders have a universal $1.50 (or less) fare to ride an extensive mass transit system anywhere in the City, by whining that NYC people pay the same ridiculous price to ride the RRs inside the City zone as RR riders do.
Yes, it's true that, in Nassau or Suffolk you can ride within any two zones (and only two zones, just so you don't touch the City) for as little as $1.75. But DUH! almost noone actually does, because, effectively, the railroad in the suburbs goes from nowhere to nowhere else.
Any trip you would actually want to take involves a bus or taxi ride at one or both ends, without a free transfer, IF the bus exists, IF the taxi exists and IF you've got a couple of hours to burn. The lack of timely and frequent service makes even this this impossible in most cases. The NYC subway system has every 20 minute service in the middle of the night, while the most frequent off-peak service anywhere on the LIRR (only on Pt. Wash and Babylon lines) is half-hourly, with no local service at all during rush hours in the reverse direction on most lines.
The railroads maintain the relatively low local fare (at its least more than the subway fare) because any local fares it gets are pure gravy. If they charged City rates, the local ridership would drop from almost nothing to nil.
The City fare is relatively high because, as with any commodity, City capacity is the premium on the railroad. And it's City people who (as with LIRR-GCT) are fighting to kep LIRR from any getting any more of it.
If we want to play the bean-counting game, how about this: Two-thirds of LIRR riders also use the subway. How far is their typical ride? A few stations from Penn or GCT to another part of midtown or to Wall St. For this, the railroad rider pays the same subway fare as the City rider who can go from the far reaches of the City to anywhere else in the City for a single fare by any combination of bus, subway or ferry. Railroad riders on the subway are pure gravy for the City system.
Sorry to rave on about this, but I've lived a quarter-century in the City and another quarter-century in the 'burbs, have been involved in local City politics and, as you're aware, know quite a bit about the City, its history and politics and still love it. After I moved to the suburbs I suddenly was forced to confront the truth of the lies I'd heard about the bed of roses of cheap suburban living.
Mark Green's attitude is one of the reasons New Yorker's have such a lousy reputation in much of the country.
Green may be an idiot in some respects, but in others he's smart. He has picked up on the fact that suburb-bashing plays well among many city voters. In fact, it's a no-lose proposition: some voters who otherwise wouldn't support Green for Mayor will vote for him just because he vilifies the suburbs, while few if any people who already support him will be turned off by this position. And suburbanites themselves, of course, can't vote in the city election ... though suburbanites who run businesses in the city, of whom I'm sure there are many, can "vote with their feet," as it were.
It may be good for the electibility of some City politicians, but it is a losing proposition for the City.
Lindsay started the modern spate of extreme surburb bashing by trying to externalize all the City's problems--at the same time that he consciously made those problems worse. This was one of the direct causes of the City's near bankruptcy.
Luckily, the people and employees of the City, together with the State (without whom the Municipal Assistance Corporation would not have been possible) took control and pulled the City through.
The City recovered its prosperity under Koch and has boomed under Giuliani, each of whom have (albeit in different ways) taken responsibility for the City's own destiny.
I don't really listen to much that Mark Green says. He worse than an idiot.
However, I dislike the argument, made in the orignial post, that city residents ought to pay subsidies to have surbanites commute in, because they make the city better -- because I also hear argument that the city should pay subsidies to help city residents commute out, because having fewer of us in the city also makes the city better.
This I heard from the Long Island Regional Planning Commission, in response to data on the surge in city residents taking low wage jobs in the city. They said that's good because they need the help and, of course, those people really don't belong in Nassau. But some were driving, and clogging up Nassau roads. Couldn't the city do something about that?
My numbers say the city pulls in money for its health and social services organizations, and is sacrificed in all other categories in return. I don't like the deal, but I don't count on Mark Green to get a better one.
I'm well aware of the false accounting for taxes paid by city businesses. For example, city OMB counts the state income taxes paid by commuters as part of the city's "balance of payments" deficit with the rest of the state, as if none of the suburbanites state income taxes out to provide services to themselves. It is unfair, but also unneccessary. Because if you are a city resident, and you are not profiting from the Medicaid boom, the state IS ripping you off.
Money is money.
The City since Lindsay decided to make Medicaid a major City industry. And the entire state pays through the nose for it.
"If you not profiting from the Medicaid boom."
Money is money.
The City since Lindsay decided to make Medicaid a major City industry. And the entire state pays through the nose for it.
When Giuliani started to go after the Medicaid mills, a not inconsiderable number of interested City forces said he was nuts--pointing out that each $1 the City spends on these things brings in another $1 from the State and $2 from the Feds. So, as far as these people were concerned, each corrupt dollar spent on Medicaid brought in three more--"good for the City economy."
But when some city politicians worked hard to get Homeport on Staten Island, others fought it and succeeeded it getting it (and its dollars, jobs, and economic ripple effects) thrown out.
What are you supposed to do with politicians who see "The Dole" as a growth industry?
I can't vote for City officials who emphasize business development over farming the State and Federal Government for Medicaid and Welfare money. But you can.
[When Giuliani started to go after the Medicaid mills, a not inconsiderable number of interested City forces said he was nuts--pointing out that each $1 the City spends on these things brings in another $1 from the State and $2 from the Feds. So, as far as these people were concerned, each corrupt dollar spent on Medicaid brought in three more--"good for the City economy."]
It's not as if those state and federal dollars grow on trees or anything. They come from taxpayers, just like the city money does. But I guess the Upper West Siders forget that.
[What are you supposed to do with politicians who see "The Dole" as a growth industry?]
I'd say "vote them out," but too many city residents are profiting off Medicaid and welfare. As far as I'm concerned, the only hope is for the city to go bankrupt, as it nearly did under Dishonest Abe, and for a control panel - hopefully comprised of parsimonious, anti-urban Sunbelt types - to take dictatorial control of the city's government and finances. Enough swinging of the meat ax and city spending actually might approach normal levels.
(Swing the meat axe and spending might approach normal levels)
High spending levels are guaranteed by the Vampire State legislature. When the city has a budget crisis, categories of spending where the city is already BELOW the national average (ie. almost all of them, especially infrastructure) get cut, not the high spending areas. That's what happened 1989 -- 1994.
You want reform, it has to happen at the state level. The city is powerless, for better or worse.
[(Swing the meat axe and spending might approach normal levels)
High spending levels are guaranteed by the Vampire State legislature. When the city has a budget crisis, categories of spending where the city is already BELOW the national average (ie. almost all of them, especially infrastructure) get cut, not the high spending areas. That's what happened 1989 -- 1994.
You want reform, it has to happen at the state level. The city is powerless, for better or worse.]
A federal bankruptcy control panel probably - I'd have to check federal law to be sure, but I believe this to be true - would have the power to override state legislative mandates and order massive cuts in health care and social service spending.
What is really needed is not the bankrupcy of the City of New York, but the hospitals industry (and, perhaps, Nassau County).
Seems like they have run up $10 billion in debt through the New York Dormitory Authority alone. Under Cuomo, building and staffing hospitals was an end in itself. Now, despite screaming for more money they are cutting patient care to pay the debt service on their empty palaces over the FDR. Cut Medicaid, and they will go under, default on their debt to the state, some of which is guaranteed by the federal government. Thousands would be laid off. This is considered a potential disaster.
But not by me. After a workout, there would be more money left for patient care. A bankrupcy administrator could cut the number and ridiculous salaries of the hospital administrators, and make Dennis Rivera's legions work for a living. And, if we ended up with one or two fewer major teaching hospitals in Manhattan, there would still be more than enough. The property would be reused, and placed on the tax rolls, creating needed jobs or needed housing.
(I can't vote for city officials who emphasize business development over farming the government, but you can).
Which are those?
Seriously, there are not many choices in the Vampire State. The Deal is very stable, and incumbents are very secure. Perhaps if a judge rules that NYC must get its fair share of school aid, the rest of the state will cut Medicaid in return. Perhaps if the Medicaid drain to New York was ended, the federal government would give us our fair share of transporation money. Nice scenario, but I don't see it.
What I see is the prior winners (who stil do very well) hoping then end of Giulaini means more money for them. Housing advocates. Health care advocates. Social services advocates. More money for city workers advocates. Higher pensions for former city workers advocates. Welfare advocates? None of these folks actually care about cash going to the poor -- its down to about 10 percent of the city's social services spending.
I'll vote for Hevesi, given the chance. I'm not a Democrat, however, so I may not get the chance. It could be worse. I could live in Nassau.
P.S. certain politicians seem more interested in farming the goverment than in business development Upstate as well. I guess that's the Cuomo angle -- let's put everyone on welfare, then no one can complain. It hasn't worked, so let's do more of the same, seems to be the idea.
[Seriously, there are not many choices in the Vampire State.]
There's always the Allied Van Lines choice, if you catch my drift.
It hasn't worked, so let's do more of the same, seems to be the idea.
I assume you're making a joke, but I've heard advocates of expensive failed policies saying the policies failed not because they were bad policies, but because not enough money was spent on them.
Cuomo and Green. Now there's one hell of a combination. Do me a favor, keep them in New York. What a revolting twosome. I'm going on what I've heard about Green, but I know all about the Cuomos. Mario was such a schmuck that I believe the organization charged with bringing industry to New York had its headquarters in Pennsylvania because taxes were way too high in New York. What took you guys so long to kick that bum out of office. An Italian-American Democrat. The worst kind. Go Rudy.
No Politics Fred
Hi Folks,
The Branford Division of Car Equipment is going to have a busy weekend starting with the festivities at College of Insurance on Friday, 2/18. The crew will be enjoying a slide show 12 hours before getting down to some maintenance on the car that I never stop talking about, the R-17. For those who don't know, the gang made up of myself, Thurston, Doug aka BMTman and Lou from Brooklyn are about to attack a serious project on the Rapid Transit Car. The Car that is the king of the hill needs to be cleaned. It will be up to the gang to clear the car of 3 decades worth of steel dust along with other buried treasure that we may find. It'll be a lenghty project, but it will be well worth it. I've never disassembled a fan before, but it'll be interesting. It's a good way to try my hand as a car mechanic, and do the maintenance.
So we'll start with a show and finish by playing in some R-17 dirt. What an eventful two days!!!
On to other news.... The filming that was scheduled for 2/12 was postponed until March 4. I found out the night before filming that it had been postponed. Being left with a dilemma, I had to decide if I was coming up or staying home. I came up anyway even though nothing was really planned on the R-17. Well I found something to do, something radically different. I spent the day working on a streetcar instead of a Rapid Transit Car. Could I truly be diversifying myself? It sure looks like it. I assisted Jeff H. in performing some tasks on a Branford legend in the streetcar world, B&QT PCC Car 1001. I took several hours to sandblast a rusted handbrake assembly which looked as good as new when I got done with it. I also assembled and disassembled a block of resistors that connected to the battery for testing of possible defects. Jeff found a defective resistor. Now we're trying to get a hold of a spare.
After observing the PCC which is in somewhat decent condition, I thought wouldn't it be great to clean the car up and give it paint job? Given the time and sufficient number of personnel involved, it would be a worthwhile project. Let's just say you'll never know. 1001 is due for some TLC.
Well I'm heading back to my favorite Rapid Transit Car. I'll find more to talk about later.
-Stef
Oh NO you're turning into a trolley guy, quick pinch yourself .... we'll have to eat lunch at SUBWAY on Saturday !
Seriously, I've seen the other subway oriented regulars at that museum also spend a significant amount of time on trolley, ROW, etc. tasks. AND I've seen several of the trolley operators eagar to catch a ride when one of the big guys comes out ... that's good for the museum. Learning to love the whole place is probally one of the reasons that you have to be a trolley operator for two years before you can get official subway handle time. Good thing I already like trolleys, especially the PCCs.
BTW, Spring is comming fence sitters, why not consider joining a local museum ... you too could start haveing some of this fun getting dirty, or just come up and "catch the trains you missed" (hope the TA didn't copywrite that).
Mr t__:^)
Actually, it may be less than 2 years before you can get trained in the RT equipment and become qualified in it. I'm totally unsure of this, but I know you should have a certain of number operating hours on the Railway before getting your hands dirty with the big stuff. Jeff would know for sure how many operating hours you would need.
-Stef
Heck they all have TROLLEY Poles at Branford so the rapid transit cars and street running cars are all related by marriage via the power system... I'm kinda found of the PCC as well, as soon as I learn more about trolley cars I'm sure I'll have a bigger intrest,hmmmm....
02/16/2000
Re: Repaint of B&QT PCC #1001.
How about repainting in the B of T green and silver?
BTW - Does #1001 have a next car light (red light above headlight) ?
Bill Newkirk
The car was restored year back to it's as built configuraion (Next car light, Anticlimber, etc) Repaintng it to the silver/green scheme would mean the car body would have to be changed too
-Mark.
The car was restored year back to it's as built configuraion (Next car light, Anticlimber, etc) Repaintng it to the silver/green scheme would mean the car body would have to be changed too
-Mark
Yes, 1001 has a next car light, but it is not original.
The lights were removed ca. 1948 at about the same time
as the paint scheme change and the replacement of turnstiles
with fareboxes.
Incidentally, if anyone knows the correct flash rate for
the next car light, let me know, as I'm replicating the
circuit.
1000 is probably going to be repainted in BoT green/aluminum. The BHRA ex-Boston PCC's are also in the BoT green/aluminum.
Let 1001 shine in the original paint B&QT scheme.
I think that Subway should be more subway themed, it has nothing remotely subway based except for the Classic Italian B.M.T and the wallpaper. I have a few suggestions:
They should have gift certificates, which would actually be tokens.
The seats should look like those on the R-44 and up.
Chimes whenever the door closes.
Orders will be announced over an unintelligible PA system
Homeless and foul smelling patrons welcome
What are yours?
LOL. How about a turnstile?
Clark Palicka
Go for the 24-hour staff gimmick
They should also have sandwiches called the IND and the IRT to go along with the BMT. You should see the looks I get when I suggest that at any Subway restaurant in Denver. It's understandable; most of the employees have never been to New York, let alone ridden on the subway.
Probably the same looks I get when I try to order spinach at Popeye's.
BOOOOO! HISSS! Rim Shot!
Wayne
That's baaaaaaaad. Wayne beat me to the rim shot button on that one.
Even if they did, they wouldn't know anything about the IRT and IND. They could have lived for years in New York, and ride the subway regularly and still not know. Most New Yorkers might have heard of the terms, but they mean nothing.
I should also have added that you should have said this instead:
"It's understandable; most people in New York don't even know what the symbols mean, let alone those who've never been there or ridden on the subway."
OK, consider it said. Well put, I might add.
They should name their sandwiches things like
"A" (Subway club)
"N" (BMT)
"B" (meat ball)
"F" (tuna)
"C" (cold cut trio)
Wayne
I wonder how many people know why this sandwich franchise used the name "Subway" to begin with. Yeah, many of us probably remember these sandwiches being called "Subs" before the "Subway" stores opened. But I doubt if many of the youngsters out there realize that Sub was short for Submarine. Hero sandwiches are shaped like submarines. From Submarine to Sub to Subway. A sandwich that has nothing to do with true Subways. No wonder the workers look at us strange when we ask for an BMT sandwich. That could be a Bacon, Mayo, and Tomato sandwich. The older folks could order a BRT: Bacon, Radish and Tomato. The BRT sandwich could also satisfy those whose religious guidelines prohibit them from putting mayonaise on pigmeat.
Alan Glick
What religious guidelines are those?
It certainly isn't the Jewish kashrut guidelines, because bacon is always bad!
One could have a BMT: Beef, Mayonnaise and Tomato, that would be kosher.
"What religious guidelines are those?"
Extremely liberal Jewish guidlines.
"Beef, Mayonnaise and Tomato, that would be kosher."
Mayo and meat is kosher?
Alan Glick
Meat and Dairy together are treif.
Where's the dairy?
Isn't mayo dairy? I thought that's why kosher restaurants never put mayo on meat. I actually can't remember any Jewish household I've ever been in that used mayo on meat. Mayo was for tuna, chicken, and turkey.
How does someone with such a "unique" first name come by such knowledge of kosher law? What're you, a double agent or something?
Alan Glick
I've discussed this before. Humans themselves do not meet the kashrut requirements and themselves are not kosher. If these non-kosher animals can be Jews, so can others. It makes sense, your religionmates (if there's such a word) won't be compelled to eat you.
And mayonnaise being a dairy product is a common misconception. It's oil, eggs and other things, but not milk.
[And mayonnaise being a dairy product is a common misconception. It's oil, eggs and other things, but not milk.]
Egg yolks, to be specific, along with salt, sugar, vinegar and spices (dry mustard, most commonly).
Anyone care to guess the source of the name "mayonnaise?"
It was created by the chef of the Duke of Richiellieu (sp?), while the duke was battling the British at Port Mahon. Therefore, Mahonnaise.
[Humans themselves do not meet the kashrut requirements and themselves
are not kosher.]
It has been reported, most notably by those rugby players whose plane crashed in the Andes, that humans taste quite a bit like pork. Guess that pretty much settles the kosher issue :-)
Then why does the jar of mayo currently in my refrigerator carry the mark U (in a circle) followed by D?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Similarly, the one in my refrigerator carries a circle U mark, with PARVE below.
OK, now you've got me wondering ... time to check the refrigerator.
Five minutes and one mustard, onion, and cheese sandwich later...
The almost-empty jar of Deep South in the fridge has milk solids way down the ingredients list. The unopened jar of Cains in the cupboard is indeed marked parve. I guess it varies by brand. Funny, therefore, that my great-grandmother should have been so fussy, since she always bought Cains.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Subway in Hoboken, NJ, comes closest to our wishes it seems. No turnstiles or anything, but they do have wallpaper which is made of blown up newpaper articles about the construction, opening and such of the Manhattan subway. It used to be much nicer there though - they covered alot of that wonderful wallpaper with freezer cases for take out cakes and an ice cream counter. Yes, you can get TCBY w/ your sub.
-- Dave
I thought that all of the Subway sandwich shops have that wallpaper.
Alan Glick
Most do, but not all. There's one in Louisburg, North Carolina (15 miles from our North Carolina home) that shares space with a Little Caesar's Pizza and something else; they only have plain white tile - no color band or anything!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd like to know how I could get my hands on some of that wallpaper.
AGREED !!! e mail me when you find out !!
I thought that they used the old subway map wallpaper, with some pictures of NY landmarks.
I've seen two types of wallpaper used in the resutrants. One has the opening of the IRT with newpapers articles and a map of the subway routes in Manhattan, the map is probably from the 70s. The other wallpaper shows the routes of the BMT and/or IND, with some NY landmarks you mentioned.
BTW, how old do you think the map of the latter wallpaper is?
I actually saw the Fulton El terminating at City Line in the map wallpaper. There was also a station on the Myrtle between Broadway/Myrtle and Central Avenue. Must have been before the dual contracts. Although I'm sure the maps are of different ages. There's an IND map showing text for transfers to the BMT and IND (like the IND ends at Rockaway Ave, BMT to Lefferts Boulevard). And the Bronx IRT at it's peak, with the two Bronx Park spurs.
How do the get the wallpaper used for the Subway Sandwich shops?
All the ones I've been to have that wallpaper.
Of course, if you wanted to regionalize, you could call Subway restaurants in New Jersey Hoagieway, while the ones in New England could be called Grinderway.
Hey, we work in winter too. Replumbing door air supply right now on 3303 at BHRA's Beard St. Pier shop.
I notice from time to time while waiting for the Queens-bound A train during the evening rush that a TA employee will be waiting at the head of the platform. When an A train stops at the station this person will hand a folder/package to the T/O and tell them which station to make the drop-off.
Is this some kind of system-wide mail-delivery service?
Inquiring minds want to know....
Doug aka BMTman
I've seen this happen at 96th street southbound on the IRT 2/3 also. No idea what it was all about, though.
Chuck
It's the new ARMstrong mail system .......
Mr t__;-)
Darn, someone figured it out. If you wait long enough, he will probably give a packet to the next A train also. One is going to Far Rock and the other to Lefferts. If the train is going that way, makes sense for them to deliver the mail.
Hey, Alex. You're correct about that. I've seen a TA employee wait for a Far Rock train in particular for a specific drop-off.
BTW, are these deliveries to switch-towers or are they for fare-control booths?
Stations does the same thing by using the lunch Reliefs or cleaners.
Selected Lunch Relief Jobs go to 370 Jay Street to pick up and deliver mail.
subway-buff: can you tell me WHAT is usually delivered by T/O's to the various stations? I would assume that inter-office would be the most common deliveries. But would MetroCards also be something delivered via subway?
BTW, there's a problem regarding NYCT security procedures, please do not post here. Contact me at my e-mail address, if that would help.
Doug aka BMTman
What is delivered is mail or maps or supplies such as forms. MetroCards are delivered by Revenue.
After getting E Mail from a lot of you. This is the consenus. Color-WHITE. Design. I will have 2, One in Front which will be a BMT TRiplex. The saying will be NYC Subway Fan. The rear will have a Lo-Volt with a IRT Redbird in the backround. In order to have these three in color. The cost will be aprox $15.00 each. Add $2.00 extra for XXL. Shipping will be $3.50 for up to 3 T Shirts and $1.20 additional for each additional T. I will hold off ordering until the end of the month. I will be ordering 36 Shirts tom start. 15 Large, 15 XL and 6XXL. If you are interested in other sizes please contact me by e mail at Brighton1Exp@cs.com, and tell me what you want and how many. I will get back to you with my address. T shirts should be sent out in the middle of April. The pictures being used are as follows Triplex www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-d/bmtd6019m.jpg and the LoVolt-Redbird slides/irt2/lowv5466h.jpg Thanks Bob
Shouldn't be NYC Subway Buff?
This mornig at about 7:55 I was waiting at 42nd for a downtown express. The platform was full mean an express hadn't been there for at least 10 min. when an empty 6 came in empty on the express track and ran express to Utica. I was wondering where they got the empty train from?
It could have run express from 125 Street to GCT or. Why? I don't know. There might have been a problem somewhere in the Bronx that hampered 4-5 service. Are you sure the train ran all the way to Utica?
Clark Palicka
I got off at bowling green and they were still anouncing "6 going to Utica"
they must have run it down from 125 but it was empty, and they were anouncing that there are "3 express trains right behind this one"
That's kind of weird. I've have never heard of the 6 going to Utica. I've heard of the 5 and the 2, but never the 6. Anyone know why they ran the 6 to Utica??
Clark Palicka
There where times when things happen and No.6's were rerouted to Brooklyn but it doesn't happen much. I once was did a Trip with a No.1 Train from 242 Street to New Lots all stops on a GO.
That's a long, long trip. There used to be a 1 express which ran along that route.
The train was probably the gap train that usually sits on the spur track at just south of 125th St (downtown). They move it into servide when it is needed.
During this mornings rush a #6 train went BIE just as it entered the City Hall loop (2 cars remained in Brooklyn Bridge station). All trains went express from either Grand Central or 14th St with the intention that they would use the South Ferry inner loop to head back uptown. I guess they needed additional service to Utica.
I heard there was a Problem with a Southbound No.4 Train this Morning.
They could have also gotten an empty train from a storage
track just north of 59th St. (on the upper level)
That would explain why the train was empty, and probably
why it was a 6 train (not enough time to change all the rollsigns)
It could've also discharged it's passengers at say 125th Street. #6 trains often become Lex Ave expresses, but I have been on a #6 that became a Lexington Ave express and went on to Utica Ave. It was during the PM rush hour. I can remember many NB #6 trains also being rerouted to Woodlawn.
Wayne
on the uptown 6 tracks just into the tunnel north of 42nd there is a sprinkler spraying the tracks, what is it for and what does it do?
I heard that in order to keep the fleet gleaming and free of steel dust, the MTA was installing several sprinkler heads along the route of each line to keep the cars fresh and bright. There have also been reports of squeegee workers cleaning the windows of subway cars and then shaking down the people sitting by the window. Unfortunately the windows are so scratched up that most customers wave the workers away.
good but the sprinkles are between the rails not in the ceiling....
thanks though
Don't you know? They figured that everyone already uses that area as a urinal, so they might as well put in a flush. :-)
The water on the rails helps to cut down on friction between rails and wheels. End result - it doesn't squeal (as much) when entering the station. To really see the sprinklers in action, go down to South Ferry on the 1 and wait for a train to arrive.
I thought they were using some kind of oiler or greaser device on the rails at sharp curves. Have they given up on those or is the sprinkler in addition?
Won't the rails rust eventually? How 'bout the third rail?
I HATES track sprayers! They ruin one of my favorite things about the subway - wheel noise! The more the train screeches, the better I like it. Loudest one in recent memory: R62A's on the #6 when I went through the loop. The second curve (the left-hand one) after leaving Brooklyn Bridge is an absolute KILLER. Honorable mention: A train of Slant R40s on the "N" led by #4370 - a memorable Aria north of Cortlandt Street. A pox on the track sprayers! May they rust in pieces.
Wayne
Stand on the South Ferry platform when a 5 train or Redbirds goes around the inner loop.
Fingernails on the blackboard time.
I LOVE IT! More gnashing of the flanges and squealing of the wheels - it's music to my battered ears. Another good spot is up in Da Bronx - stand on the west end of the southbound #2/#5 platform at Mott Avenue (149th Street-Grand Concourse) and listen to the 'Birds sing! If they put a track sprayer THERE I will personally take my Sawz-All to it.
Wayne
MEMO
TO: Track Department
FROM: The Boss
SUBJECT: 149th/Grand Concourse
STATUS: URGENT
Install track sprayer immediately west of the station. We have become aware that railfans like the sound of squealing flanges. This must be stopped AT ONCE! Beware of one fan in particular. He is reported to be carrying a camera and muttering under his breath about tilework. He should be considered armed and dangerous as he is also rumored to be in possession of a Sawz-All.
:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All together now:
Let's all sing like the (Red) birdies sing,
Squeak, squeak-squeak, squeak-squeak...
Oh, yes, the Redbirds can really sing. Try riding the #2 from, say, Nevins to Chambers, and you'll hear the whole symphony. The noise between Park and Chambers is particularly severe. That curve must be around 200 feet in radius.
PATH either put a track sprayer or greased the rails just north of WTC, I noticed this on tracks 3 and 4.
That brings to mind my VERY FIRST PATH experience, December 27, 1969 - the same day the "MM" made its brief appearance - we went from Jamaica to Myrtle to Metropolitan to Myrtle to Canal to Cortlandt to the PATH.
The old Hudson Terminal was still in operation. At the south end, I took particular notice of the approach curve, which was partially within the station itself. I decided to wait there - and after a few minutes - a "K" CLASS Newark train (led by #1207) paused then began to round the curve. The wheel noise was incredible! PATH cars make a different sound than the NYCT cars - a more hollow sound but nevertheless very intense. My ears are still ringing from it.
Wayne
You'd be in for a disappointment on our light rail line. Denver's LRVs are quiet, even on sharp curves. There's a little noise when going around the really sharp curve beneath the Colfax Ave. viaduct, but nothing gut-wrenching.
Catenary towers have been installed all the way south to about halfway across the flyover/swapover at Union Ave., leaving perhaps a mile of line which still needs them.
It may sound good, but all that noise is created by grinding metal, which is not good for the longevity of the tracks or wheels.
Before the tracks were replaced and the cars went to GOH, the loudest track screeching could be heard north of East Tremont Ave on the 2/5. In the early 80's, that screeching could be heard all the way into Wild Asia. Used to spook the zebra's, IIRC.
>...South Ferry platform when a 5 train
> or Redbirds goes around the inner loop.
> Fingernails on the blackboard time.
Sounds like a KODAK moment.. when do they pass?
Any time during mid-day when the 5 is running to Bowling Green.
Was riding on an R68 up the Brighton line yesterday. I could see into the conductors cab and I could also see the "speedometer". While the train was stopped at Sheepshead Bay, with it's doors open, the speedomoter actually said the train was going 3 MPH. No wonder these things are slow. If it can register complete motionlessness as movement, then i think it's time the field shunting was restored.
Does anyone know the status of the CBTC Contract S-32701 for the Canarsie? Does the Kasten Chase radio system work? Need to know as much as possible from the inside.
does anyone have a list of the frequiencies used for subway communications. I'd like to listen on my scanner
freq(mHz)/ /service
470.3875 Community Repeater -- Emergencies, Maintenance, Power
161.0250 Coney Island Yard
160.8750 Coney Island Yard BMT IND
160.3950 Coney Island Yard Tower A
160.8950 Coney Island Yard Tower B
161.1900 Division A dispatcher-to-train (former IRT division)
161.1900 Division A IRT Subway Operations
158.8800 Division A IRT Train-to-Dispatcher Simplex
158.8800 Division A train-to-dispatcher
161.5050 Division B1 BMT Subway Operations
158.7750 Division B1 BMT Train-to-Dispatcher Simplex
158.8050 Division B1 BMT Train-to-Dispatcher Simplex
161.5050 Division B1 dispatcher-to-train (former BMT division)
158.7750 Division B1 train-to-dispatcher
161.5650 Division B2 dispatcher-to-train (former IND division)
161.5650 Division B2 IND Subway Operations
158.8050 Division B2 train-to-dispatcher
160.8450 S. Brooklyn Railroad[?]
161.5650 S. Brooklyn Railroad[?]
156.1050 Signals/Maintanence of Way
160.8450 Yard IND BMT IRT
160.8450 yard IND BMT IRT
Thank you!!!!!
Aaron 75 Ave, if you live in nyc there is a book at radio shack called police call. They have all the radio frequiencies for the subway, buses, metro north and conrail etc, etc.
I have one at home for the year 2000.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Transit once asked conductor steinbach to keep a unsafe train in service over radio waves. He then complained to the fcc to revoke transits radio license. The fcc replied in writing that he should just ignore inappropriate anouncments. I couldnt believe that so he showed me the letter. I then went down to fcc at hudson street in manhattan and checked with them. There is nothing in the rule book about revoking radio licenses. I then sent the letter to Howard stern for defence with his FCC problems along with a note explaining new york transit is really a state organisation. Patakis campaign manager Bob Ryan, told me that his show became little more than a commercial for pataki for governor after i mailed the letter to him
I had the fortunate opportunity to ride your subway system 17 years ago. I thought it was great. Down South we are not fortunate to have a subway system. The only modes of transportation we have are cars,bus or cabs. Thanks for reading my message! TEDDYBEAR
Check around in your area. Mass transit is comming back, some are the new trolley, i.e. LRV (Light Rail Vehicle). You can even catch the "Street Car Named Desire" again. So if you're able to get to the larger cities down south look for them. They may not be as extensive as the NYC system, but a ride on a heavy rail still will give you pleasure, just close you eyes.
Mr t__:^)
1. Subway rats are nutrisous, trust me. I know from experience.
2. Get to Know the person next to you. You might have to eat them
later.
3. DO NOT UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES pull the emergency brakes.
4. Before Panicing, make sure it's not a regular stop.
5. If the train does not stop then these rules to not apply.
Notice how recent projects have involved shutdowns, and have been done expeditiously?
The Manhattan Bridge repairs, in contrast, have been constrained by the decision to keep the bridge open to traffic. The result has been 18 years of disruption and counting. If the fix does not work, and the cracks recurr, the penalty will be severe indeed.
Let's say the engineers are right about the towers and main cables being in fine shape. Given what we've seen, if they had been willing to bite the bullet they probably could have closed the bridge for three years, removed it, and rebuilt it in a new configuration that would have solved the cracking permanently. Three subway tracks could have been placed in the middle, with the third used when one of the first two required repair, and access to 6th Avenue or Broadway.
Probably would have been better and cheaper.
No they should make it 4 tracks in the middle so that congestion does not happen at all. 2 lanes on each side of the bridge where the tracks use to be. Tunnel Realignment will have to happen was well and that might be a lot of monet just to do that. Or another idea is to tear down the bridge and build it the right way. Also in the Brooklyn end alot of switches can be torn down and new one put up. So it would be easier, for the B to bypass DeKalb Street. also that congestion would not happen.
There isn't enough room in the middle for four tracks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is, but they wouldn't be able to put in 2 lanes on each side, only one. You can have the tracks slightly off center, and one lane and one side and two on the other.
Why not two levels of two tracks each? The upper roadways are along the sides, above the (current) tracks, right? So there should be space between them for two tracks. (If not, certainly one track -- and three can go below in that case.) So all four tracks will be in the center and all four roadways will be on the outside. Make the upper roadways reversible, as on the Queensboro Bridge. Road capacity will be increased by one lane; subway capacity will be increased by two tracks over what is actually in service currently.
Putting the tracks in the center would help the loading factors on the structure. So would operating both sides with equal service levels. The north tracks have seen more service from the very beginning. Broadway vs. Nassau Loop service prior to '67, Sixth Av (BD) vs. Broadway (NQ) from then to '87, and Sixth Av vs. NOTHING since then.
Thus once the bridge is open completely again, the D and the N should run at all times and equal headways, the B and Q should run equal schedules. If throught B service to Queensbridge is needed off peak, it could run via the Tunnel.
Hi Gerry:
FYI, there was a study done in the 1950s that suggested not equal service levels like you mention PER SE, but platooned simultaneous dispatching to balance the loads on the structure, north and south side. It was deemed impractical to implement.
CONRAD
Yeah, but look at the complexities of those items. The WTC switch was an extremely simple job, compared to the others. The Willy B was planned right from the beginning, and before they shut it down (and there was no way of avoiding it, since there are only 2 tracks) 90% of the work was done. The Lenox invert is probably the most complex of those jobs, next to the Manny B.
-Hank
1. In a "standard" four track subway line, it's common to see crash walls between the two express tracks between stations. However, at local stations, the crash walls are interrupted. Why?
2. At the 116th St. station on the 8th ave. line, there are alternating open spaces and crash walls between the express and local tracks on the uptown and downtown side. This is also evident at the extreme northern end of the 110th St. station. Why this unusual construction?
In answer to #2, I believe that this may have been done because turnouts either were there or were planned.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I don't believe so. That pattern continues almost all the way to 125th St, as well as the tunnel between 110th and 116th Sts. Several local stops on the Fulton St. line also have this pattern.
The original Contract One line has no crash walls at all between the express tracks. Crash walls were adopted on Dual Contracts lines and continued to be used on IND lines.
Here's a postcard picture at 117th Street on what is now the 1/9, looking south toward the 116th/Columbia station, showing turnouts that no longer exist. I was making an assumption that the other areas were following the same logic.
Tunnel at 117th Street
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just checked the APTA website (www.apta.com), statistics, federal statistics, ridership, by agency. 3rd Quarter and year to data 1999 data is out -- 1,336,000,000 January to September 1999.
That is little more than the most I would have hoped for over an entire year just a few short years ago. The subways are on a course to hit 1.8 billion in 1999, close to the record of 2.0 billion. Yikes!
So how do they do it? I raised this question earlier. The last official report of ridership was that of 1995, at 1.1bn.
Now you suggest, currectly, 1999 will be close to 2bn, same as last year of World War II when fewer drove autos.
Now as far as I know, no other transit system in the whole world can post this sort of pencentage increase. If it is true, NY trains, buses, etc, must be jam-packed day and night as in the wartime, or even the 1929 year.
Therefore, can we find a comparison with present YTD September, 99 figures with those from the APTA website for 1995 by any chance and get a more interesting comparison. Maybe there is a lot of double counting in 1999 or less in 1995?
There is now no incentive to turnstile jump because you can buy an unlimited card. Since people pay there is now officially more people. Also one thing i learned was when you dont have to pay you dont mind going through the gates just to make a phone call. when you have to pay you think twice about going through the gate I got my pass and i stopped thinking about how much i used the gate. At least that is what I think. I dont live anymore in new york city and it is also quite possible transit is lieing or there is actually an increase in ridership.
One thing that there is definately more of is on- and off riding. Let me give you an example. We live about a 15 mintue walk away from my kid's school. If there were no discount, we'd walk it every time.
When one city-one fare came in, we'd sometimes take a bus to the school, and I'd hop on at the next subway stop. Bus ridership boomed.
With the unlimited ride card, I sometimes take the subway one stop, drop the kids off, then hop back on the train. Now subway ridership is booming. You may or may not consider that real ridership.
One thing I know has happened is a boom in off-peak ridership. For one of many child- and work-related reasons, I often ride during the mid-day hours, or in the evening. Those trains are full, with seats taken and some standees. 15 years ago they were empty. "Peaking" wrecked the finances of the transit system 70 years ago. "De-peaking" may be restoring the finances of the transit system today.
[One thing I know has happened is a boom in off-peak ridership. For one of many child- and work-related reasons, I often ride during the mid-day hours, or in the evening. Those trains are full, with seats taken and some standees. 15 years ago they were empty. "Peaking" wrecked the finances of the transit system 70 years ago. "De-peaking" may be restoring the finances of the transit system today.]
And "peaking" is why the LIRR and probably other commuter rail lines operate at such big deficits.
(Big deficits on commuter RRs due to peaking)
Perhaps the internet and reverse can help. If in-commuters work most of the week at home, and commute in for meetings, you get more off-peak trips.
One thing that inflates commuter RR costs is the long distances and many stations relative to ridership. The same factors affect state roads. If you assume the state ought to cover the ROW costs, and local governments the stations, then the commuter RRs ought to cover their commuter RR costs. IF they were reasonably staffed and paid.
8 M-4's have been found to have cracks in the trucks!
The car which are said to have arrived in the middle of the 220 car order, have been taken OOS for repairs. As well, an axle casing split in half when a car was removed from the track.
The story can be accessed here.
And to think that if this becomes a serious problem, Almost all of the Budd "Almond Joys" have been scrapped! With the ones remaining, They might be able to get ONE train in service!!!
The Almond Joys are coming back to haunt SEPTA!!
I went through the yards(via the 65 bus) at 69th not 3 weeks ago and the yard was lousy with Budd cars. Frankford had lots of 'em too last time I checked.
It'd be nice if they brought the Almond Joys back, even if just for a day or two.
On the subject of new car failures, can anyone confirm that the Kawasaki R142s had a major failure while enroute to the Flushing line for testing? Latest rumor is the computers failed and the train had to be pushed from behind to Times Square due to the A.C. motor failures.
By a train of Redbirds, no doubt?
Wayne
You know what this means, don't you? Calling the Bondo Squad, calling the Bondo Squad.
If the R142 are indeed Lemons then the Body Doctors will be working mucho O.T. patching up the 'Birds....
One failure? Sure it raises a red flag - but I'd wait and see if these problems crop up consistently.
Wayne
02/18/2000
Re: R-142A lays down!
Oh well! I guess it's better to have the computer crash than the train!
Bill Newkirk
thats one of the 142's problems. it isn't like they had alot of problems that could endanger passengers like the AdTranz M-4's during service. it's okay if they have a problem. MTA will fix it. thats why they are under testing unlike what septa's rushing into service(?)
IIRC, The M-4s were tested in non-revenue service for a while. I think it was about three months, but I'm not sure. There were two cars, then six, and we were seeing those for a few months before anyone got to ride them.
But a six-month period probably wouldn't have helped much - the current problems didn't surface until very recently, despite constant inspections.
Ooooohhhhhhhhh noooooooooooo.
Not another R44, R46 deal!
i hope not, because i remember when those cars went out of service, we were short cars for awahile. did septa save some of the old cars just in case this happened?
02/18/2000
Simon Q,
Oh, maybe a few cars. Who knows, they're probably stripped or vandalized. Maybe SEPTA could use some reguaged Redbirds, rust not withstanding?
Bill Newkirk
I think there are a couple Almond Joys left. I wonder if the M4s could use Almond Joy trucks if necessary?
SEPTA's got more problems:
1. Earlier this week, a man was injured when he fell in front of a train at the Pattison BSS station. It's unclear whether he was pushed or jumped.
2. A teenager was killed near the Shadeland Avenue station on the Red Arrow yesterday when an LRV struck him while he was walking on the tracks.
3. At the new Thorndale terminus of the R5 to Downingtown, a wheel split in half off a Silverliner IV. No one was hurt.
I ride the SIRT occasionally, and i noticed that they never fully updated the cars on this line. aare there any plans to reurbish these cars, or are there plans to get new cars for staten island? let me know.
The R-44 cars on Staten Island were rebuilt ca. 1990. A company called American Coastal Industries started the project and went bankrupt. The cars were finished at Coney Island Shops.
The MTA's proposed 2000-2004 capital plan doesn't include funds to replace any of Staten Island's fleet.
David
I don't know if the company went bankrupt, but they defaulted on the contract when the first car rebuilt failed a load test.
-Hank
Could the MTA link the 7 train to the Lex at Grand Central or 7 Av at Times Square by building something similar to what is on DC's system at Farragut North on the red line and Farragut West on the Blue and Orange Lines connection the 2? Then, trains could get between the lines without the trip through the B division.
The 7 is too far below the Lex at Grand Central to make a connection viable. The problem at Times Square is the 7 platform extends past Seventh Ave., so any connection track would either have to loop back to Seventh Ave. or split off from the 7 line before entering the Times Square station.
Start the connection in the tunnel from Queens then. There should be a better way to transfer cars to/from the 7.
Yeah, you could start a new tunnel at 1st Avenue, run it over the existing one and connect it to the LEX IRT at 42 Street. The only problem is that the 7 wouldn't be able to stop at GCT. It's possible, but it would cost too much.
The point of this tunnel is only to move equipment, not to have trains stop.
A non-revenue river tunnel? I don't think so.
Nobody's talking about a new river tunnel.
Yeah, you could start a new tunnel at 1st Avenue, run it over the existing one and connect it to the LEX IRT at 42 Street. The only problem is that the 7 wouldn't be able to stop at GCT. The connection between the two is possible, but it would cost too much money that the TA doesn't have.
[Start the connection in the tunnel from Queens then. There should be a better way to transfer cars to/from the 7.]
Cars aren't often transferred on or off the 7. The current roundabout route shouldn't be much of an issue.
I always thought that the TS shuttle should be connected into the Flushing line at Grand Central. This way, 3 tracks would exist and it would increase capacity. A new station could be constructed at 42nd. and 6th Ave, providing a more convienent transfer to the IND. Car swaps would be made easy becuase the end of the shuttle branches right off the West Side IRT.
In the 1918 Times article on the "H" system opening,
on this site at http://nycsubway.org/irt/hsystem01.html,
it mentions that 2 of the 4 shuttle tracks are planned
for use as part of the queens borough line, I guess there
must have been some reson that the plans were changed.....
Other articles have also pointed out that "nothing short of a mountain goat could have made the climb from the Steinway Tunnel level up to the Original Subway track level"
I think that the Lex av IRT should be linked to the 7th Avenue IRT. All they would have to do is create a connection between the Northbound IRT on Lex. and the shuttle,(the southbound one already exists) and a switch track from the Downtown Local/Express on the 7th Avenue IRT to the TS shuttle. Track 1 on the TSS would be shared by the Northbound and Southbound trains. Then you could extend the platforms on track 1 to 5 cars, and the first five cars would open at TS and GCT. The train would run approximately every 10 minutes, leaving enough time for one train to crossover from Lex to 7th. Get rid of the shuttle on track 1, and use tracks 3-4. Then create an overpass at TS to tracks 3-4, (since 1 extends to 7th Av). I think this would be benefitial to everybody. I can't even count how many times I've taken the 6 to GCT then the Shuttle to TS and then the 2. This was the mainline when the IRT opened, but then they never used it anymore when LEX went further up, and when 7th Av was lowered.
Let me know what you think!
Clark Palicka
There have been many proposals to redo the shuttle line. Personally, even though it would destroy the old tilework, which I like, and most of the historical niceties of the station, that they should rip up the station and replace it with a two track longer shuttle with a third through track allowing reroutes from Lex to 7th ave. Or course, even more ideally, the tracks be rerouted so that passengers train can realistically pass through. But the first thing is, again, something they've been proposing for years, making the shuttle line longer, and only two tracks.
Construction was actually begun on that plan, but the crowds proved too great, and they went back to the original configuration before it was completed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know. but I'm talking about what the guy in charge of the shuttle line told me after a Transit Museum sponsered event last year.
The original tilework at Grand Central was destroyed in the 1964 fire.
and the new tile is UGLY!
There were two or three sets of tile erected between 1964 and the present!
--Mark
The only tilework I remember other than the most recent makeover was the white with an occasional blue and/or red-orange spangle.
I was talking about Times Square, which has a few bits of original tiling.
Original tablets and decorations can be seen near the west end of the north side platform at Times Square. It's the style of the local stations along the line.
Wayne
Yes, and you can still see the "42" designation as well as "Times Square".
It was plain white with recesses (like 14th Street) with no tablet or tile band. Not sure if it had the tapestries like 72nd Street or Bowling Green.
The post-1964 tile was 5x10 off white/speckled with an irregular pattern of black, blue and orange-red.
The current tile is antique beige with a modernistic frieze depicting travel/railroad icons and a tablet reading "Grand Central" in it.
Wayne
They should build a connection to allow through
service between Lex. and 7th aves. on two of the
tracks and run a shuttle on the other 2. The could
also extend the shuttle to connect with a future
2nd ave. subway...
I don't think they can extend the shuttle, because it's at the same level as the Lex. Also, there are only 3 tracks, track 2 is abandoned. The platform at Times Sq. for track 3 is where track 2 would go.
It is actually more complicated than that...
The shuttle is one level above the Lex line
and was originally supposed to go to the
mezzanine of the Lex. station.
Track 2 may be abandoned, but it is still there,
and if track 1 is lowered to pass under the 7th ave tracks
(but still above the BMT line)
Track 2 could terminated where track 1 does now.
This would be much much easier to visualize with a 3d map.
The shuttle is roughly at the same level as the upper level of Metro North tracks coming into Grand Central. The 4/5/6 are about the same as the lower level of Grand Central tracks. Two levels below that, you get to the Flushing line. That's why hooking the shuttle up the Steinway tunnels was ruled out 85 years ago, the grade was too steep.
By the time the 7 gets to Times Square, it's about one level closer to the surface. The problem with connecting it to the Seventh Ave. line is the platform location, along with the BMT Broadway line any connection would have to deal with as well.
By the time the 7 gets to Times Square, it's about one level closer to the surface.
Is it? The 7 at Times Square is two levels below the 1/2/3/9 (don't forget the weird lower mezzanine), which is two levels below the street. The 7 at Grand Central is two levels below the 4/5/6, which is two levels below the street. Sounds the same to me. Granted, level is not a precise measure, but it's usually good enough.
The 7 is supposed to be at the same elevation as the lower level of the 8th Ave line (explaining why it can't be extended to the Javits center or New Jersey). Anyone have an altimeter?
Supposedly, that was one of the reasons that lower level was put in at 42nd St. - to prevent the 7 from being extended westward.
That lower level actually makes it easier to extend the 7. The structure which it would use to get under the Eighth Avenue Line is already there.
Sounds like a job for Todd the next time he's down from Boston.
Actually I have done this, although on separate trips. I don't recall the data -- I passed it all along to Peggy for inclusion on the line-by-line. But I'll try to get over there to redo the measurements on Feb 26th, when Transit & Weather Together returns.
The walk down the stairs from the 1/2/3/9 platform at Times Square to the 7 is about one level less than the walk from the 4/5/6 down the ramp to the 7 at GC, though this is just an approximation, of course.
Aren't the tripcocks on the 7 on the opposite side of the train from the rest of the A Division (IRT)? Even with such a connection, access from the 7 to the rest of the IRT would be too difficult to perform on a regular basis.
The trip cocks on most cars assigned to #7 service are on the right side, just like the rest of the IRT. The single-unit R-33s have trip cocks on BOTH sides, so when R-36s are transferred to/from Coney Island, they are led by an R-33S.
David
Sorry, then, I was confused.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this summer, and occasionally on Sundays, the 6 train's last southbound stop was Bowling Green. I was wondering if they're planning on using Bowling Green as the last stop, or if these were just special trains. I personally think that the last stop on the 6 should be Bowling Green. Most people when they go downtown, especially tourists, go to Wall St, Fulton or BG. Why did they never extend the 6 to BG permanentely.
Clark Palicka
It once did but I forget when. This is also when the S ran between Bowling Green and South Ferry. Check the FAQ for exact info.
They haven't done it in the last 23 years.
I have an unofficial '71 map which shows part time service to South Ferry by the #6. I can't figure out how it could, especially during the rush hours. The 2 tracks south of Brooklyn Bridge couldn't handle the capacity. It must've been a weekend thing.
One possibility would be to extend the express tracks past BB. Make Bowling Green the last stop on the #6, and convert Wall St. to a local stop, with Fulton being express with a lower platform (like 59th St.
I know, too expensive, NIMBY, etc.
Chris: Without going into a lot of detail here's how it worked during the 60's and into the 70's. M-F 6a-7p Bowling Green Stl,7p-9p #5,9p-6a #6. In those days the #5 stopped running about 9pm on weekdays and 12 mid on weekends, after that the #6 was extended to South Ferry.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,RedbirdR33
About 1951, would have it been possible to see a train of Lo-V's at Brooklyn Bridge station displaying the following three signs?
LEXINGTON AVE LINE
PELHAM BAY PARK
SOUTH FERRY
Karl: It would have been possible; for about a week. Starting on December 15,1950 occasional #6 Lexington Av Local were extended from Brokklyn Bridge to South Ferry on weekdays and during the Saturday morning rush. This was in addition to midday #4 trains on the weekdays also being extended to South Ferry. This was done in order to provide additional service for the impending closure of the 3 Avenue El South Ferry Branch on December 22,1950. However the operation of locals to South Ferry during the rush slowed down the operation and lasted only about a week. Regular operation of #6 trains to South Ferry did not begin until April 8,1960 and then only during the night hours.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thank You Larry, I am assuming the normal sign display then would be Lexington Ave Line, Pelham Bay Park, Brooklyn Bridge.
Why? Lower Manhattan is a ghost town at night. You'd thing the #4 train would provide more than adequate night service.
The 6 used to run night service to Bowling Green. Running it there days would limit train capacity on the 4/5/6 because they would all have to share track south of Brooklyn Bridge.
That's the key point ... the four track main line ends at Brooklyn Bridge. Bowling Green has just two tracks & is designed as a through station. To turn the #6 around you need to go to South Ferry where the 1/9 turns. There is a inside track "B" that may be usable ... I'll leave it to others to comment if it has too tight a turn for R68s & R-142s. So, you would be left with too many trains on too few tracks and lots of switching at Bowling Green (turning vs. going to Brooklyn).
If it wasn't for the narrow IRTs vs. the BMT/IND, you could say the same about the 2/3, i.e. run them to South Ferry, then to Brooklyn with the 4/5 and give the Clark Street tunnel to the IND or BMT.
Mr t__:^)
But there's no connection between South Ferry and the tunnel to Bklyn. You would have to go around the loop and reverse direction or build a new connection between the 7th Ave line and the tunnel North of South Ferry.
I assume you mean R62, not R68. An R68 would never make it anywhere near the loop, let alone around it.
Both loop tracks can handle the largest available IRT car. There are switches from the inner to outer loops before the platform, and from the outer to the inner after the platform. 2 and 5 trains used this as late as last year, when they were working in the Clark St tunnel. 2 trains would cross to the local track at Chambers, run non-stop around the loop, cross to the inner track to Wall St on the Lex, reverse direction, and use the Lex tunnel to Brooklyn. Vice-versa for the 5, which went the other way.
-Hank
From what I've read, the Clark Street Tunnel was built as part of the Dual Contracts just like the Lexington Avenue Line north of Grand Central and Pelham Line should actually be wide enough for conversion to IND/BMT car widths. Not that this would ever happen.
The other problem with this plan is that the existing Joralemon Street Tunnel would not have enough capacity for all four current service.
ind cars are seventy five feet and bmt cars are sixty feet long.Once cars enter IRT stations, they are trapped. IRT stations cannot accomodate BMT and IND cars. Also automatic tripping devices are located on the opposite side.
>>>ind cars are seventy five feet and bmt cars are sixty feet long.<<<
IND cars AND B.M.T. cars are both 60 and 75 feet long. For instance, the "N" train (BMT) runs R-68's, length, 75', the "C" train IND runs R-38's length, 60'. Cars on the Canarsie line ("L") are limited to 60 feet due to clearance considerations.
>>>Once cars enter IRT stations, they are trapped.<<<
How do you mean "trapped" ?
Peace,
Andee
The limits also apply to the J, M and Z lines.
Really, I did not know that, thanks
Peace,
Andee
Actually, the Canarsie, as well as the other eastern division BMT lines can support cars longer than 60'. 67' BMT Standards supported all these lines for the bulk of their existance before 1969. However, 75' is too long for certain tight curves.
According to the Dual Contracts Specs which were reported in a reprint book that I recently purchased, the subways built after the Original Line were built so that they could handle 10 foot wide cars, that is because the distance between the girders is wider.
Theoretically, the platforms on the "newer" IRT routes, that is Lexington Avenue Line North of Grand Central, 7th Avenue Line South of Times Square through the Clark Street Tunnel and the Pelham Line could be shaved to convert to wider cars and probaly lengths of the 67 feet of the BMT standard. This conversion has been considered a number of proposals which would have converted the Pelham Line to IND service.
However, this is no incentive to do this because service patterns would have to be bizarre stub-ended lines.
Gary: It is true that the Contract III Lines were built with clearances for cars of 10 foot width except of course at platforms. However the Clark Street Line connects to the Contract I orginal subway at Times Square and the Contract II Brooklyn Mainline at Borough Hall so a hypothetical IND car would have noplace to go.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The 6 actually used to run to South Ferry on a part time basis (evenings, IIRC), sharing the outer loop with 1 trains. So did the 5. 5 trains now use the inner loop to turn around when they're not running to Brooklyn.
A good friend of mine has one of those old steel signs that used to hang in the windows of the IRT Lo-V's. His says simply "South Ferry". He asked me how many different lines terminated at South Ferry in the old days. The old days being the 1940's and 1950's. I vaguely remember the Lexington Ave IRT terminated there and I think that the Third Ave el did too,
Am I right? Were there any others?
9th Avenue and 6th.
The 6th and 9th Avenue Els terminated at South Ferry as well.
I am not sure that the Lexington Avenue line ran to South Ferry (other than the Bowling Green Shuttle) during that time. I know it ran there
in the 60's until the early 70's but there were not that many Lo-V's in service by the late 60's.
The Broadway local (#1) ran (and still runs) to South Ferry. For a while back in the 40's the Lenox Avenue line ran as a local from 96th St to South Ferry (the Broadway line ran express to Brooklyn).
I know I left gaps in this so fellow Sub-Talkers feel free to jump in
anytime.
Also some 2nd Ave. El trains ran to South Ferry.
-- Ed Sachs
Well, the #6 line went to South Ferry up until the mid-’70’s, after which the #1 had the terminus all to itself.
.
South Ferry was originally built as a turnaround for the original subway line. It opened in 1905 as part of Contract Two. The shuttle platform was added in 1909, and the inner loop station opened when the 7th Ave. line was extended down there. This is covered elsewhere on this website.
All IRT els in Manhattan had some type of service to the South Ferry elevated terminal. The 1 and 9 trains terminate at South Ferry (now at Chambers St, they simply use South Ferry as a through station these days). The Lexington Ave exp also terminated at South Ferry, although the R-types couldn't use the inner loop because of tight clearances. Modified R-types or older Low-V types were used as a shuttle to the inner loop, with off-peak service sharing the inner loop with the #1 line. All Lexington Ave service and shuttle service to South Ferry was terminated in 1977. The South Ferry station is only 1 block south of Bowling Green.
Chris....Is that the reason the #5 doesn't carry passengers to South Ferry?
Carl M.
Yes, several. First, Bowling Green is only one block north of South Ferry. Second, the R types cannot use the inner loop unless they have the ability to only open their center doors. Finally, the #5 would interfere with the operation of the #1 and 9 lines if it shared the outer loop.
...Bowling Green is only one block north of South Ferry...
Bowling Green is at Battery Place. Then walking along State St, one crosses: Bridge, Pearl and Water Streets before coming to South St and the South Ferry Station. So, one block is really 4 blocks which is very pleasant to walk with the wind from the river driving rain into one's eyes.
...the R types cannot use the inner loop unless they have the ability to only open their center doors.
This is the reason they don't use the inner loop. The LV's, R12, R14, R15 and R17 had this ability. Somebody at the TA forgot that this was useful, when they decided to go to "open/close" buttons. They could have rectified this oversight in subsequent orders but haven't. Maybe, they should require it for the R142's so that some of their patrons won't have to take a hike.
[re reasons for terminating the Bowling Green - South Ferry shuttle]
It would be interesting knowing what ridership levels were like before the service was cancelled in 1977. All I've heard it that it was cancelled because of budget cuts. That would seem to show that ridership was poor, but I'd like to know for sure.
I've been told that patronage was minimal, and that the safety of passengers waiting on the inner platform was also a major problem. With the openings and curvature there were too many places that members of the undesirable element could hide.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If he doesn't want that sign... gimme a click.
I'm first on the line, but he does not want to part with it. It apparently has great sentimental value for him. It really was not in the very good shape either, lots of rust!
I forgot the most obvious reason service was terminated: it's not warranted. Nobody has missed the shuttle service, and it's termination prevents hundreds to thousands of ferry riders from crowding onto the overburdened East side IRT anyway.
The shuttle used four R-12s which were modified so that only their center doors would open at the inner loop station. The Gibbs Hi-Vs would have been a logical choice in the olden days, since their center doors were remote controlled while their end doors were manually operated and could simply be left closed.
Was it in fact possible to selectively open only the center doors on the Lo-Vs? IIRC, all of their doors were remote controlled.
Thank You All for your responses! It would seem like every IRT train terminated at South Ferry at some time or other.
From the postings on this thread, it becomes very clear that South Ferry hosted many more lines than it does today. Of course, we have to remember that ridership on the Ferry plunged after the Verrazano opened in 1964 and introduced a flood of express buses to downtown and midtown.
I wonder how crowded it was on the remaining underground IRT lines and adjacent Broadway BMT that served the Ferry between the time the els were torn down and the Bridge opened?
Can someone clearify something. Afther the TA tests the 2 sets of R142's a finds them satisfactory, and puts them in revenue service. Will each new set of R142's need to go through the same 6 monthe testing before they go into service or do they just get delivered and put into service
After the R-142 and R-142A pilot trainsets complete the current phase of testing (non-revenue), they will be placed in service for a 30-day test, running 24 hours a day or close to it. Any defect stops and resets the 30-day clock. If this sounds tough, that's because it is, but remember: the R-68s passed this test :-)
David
then they are put next to the redbirds and
clearly the handsomer "reds" emerge victorious
sending the 142's back to the sketch pad.
We'll see the rusty reds in the scrapyard while the R-142's take over. Seroiusly, I doubt if they will have that many problems with the new sets due to the fact that they batterd the R-110's with tests. Anybody feel opposed to this?
And 5 years from now when all the redbirds have been reduced to piles of rusting steel particles, we'll be crying for those new cars.
at least they are not careless like septa is. maybe they do test their cars . I just don't know if they do. its a good thing that the Ta puting them through such scrutiny. it will pay off later when they go into
I recall someone saying that Y3 track on the Dyre was limited to a slow speed limit. This is a lie!!!! I saw the train (Bombardier) at Gun Hill Road today and it was MOVING way faster than what was stated to be the speed limit on Y3 track.
Also, the test train was not 5 cars, it was 10! I got footage of that spectacular run-by and some of it sitting on M Track at East 180 Street. Yet, I'll be back there tomorrow.
The propulsion sounds like a cat in heat.
Do those cars make that same high pitched, rapid whining sound that the R110A's make when they are slowing down?
I don't know about when it's slowing down, but when it's accelerates it whines louder and at a higher pitch than the R-110B.
Now on eBay: item #262696447 - No reserve, minimum bid applies. Set of 5 black and white 8x10 inch professional photos of Brooklyn PCC trolley cars on the famed Brooklyn Bridge and Manhattan terminal taken in the late 1940s. Included are aerial-type views. These photos are extremely sharp and clear negative originals (not copies). •For further info or for additional items that may be listed in the category above, do eBay Seller Search for JoePCC699@AOL.com. New items are added on almost a daily basis. Check our listings as often as possible; you would not want to miss some item you may have been looking for. We have over 25,000 items in all categories to be listed in the future.
I didn't know this was a free ad board?? That is all this guy does.
1. Saw between cars on the 4, a diamond 4 sign with the next car a diamond 6. The diamond 6 did not have the express sign underneath.... I guess this not a feature on the R62's.
2. Bway BMT: R32#3808 on the N had graffitti on the exterior of the railfan window and the body on the right side. R68#2904 had its top destination sign missing.....
R32#3874 have it torquoise seats exposed. Saw 3503 mated to 3660.(I think, I could be wrong????) Whitehall St have a waterfall at the front end of the Queens bound platform.
R46#6084 had a brown R in a circle displayed. The lay up tracks between City Hall and Canal have its crossover to the Manhattan bound local removed. No crossovers at 14St.
3. Saw the 42St shttle head to Manhattan from Livonia Yard. It was 4 cars long.
Questions:
1. Where is exactly is the crossunder at 28St?
2. How come no crossovers at 14St?
3TM
If you're referring to passanger crossovers, there is none at 28th St anymore. 14th St has the full mezzanine.
If you're referring to switches, there are no switches between the interlocking north of 34th St to the crossovers to the bridge tracks south of Prince St.
What is the difference between a passanger crossover and a non passanger crossover?
One is a passageway. The other is a switch for trains.
02/16/2000
I was riding the Centre Street subway today, southbound and decided to get off at Bowery Station. I checked out the station that would qualify as a ghost town and noticed some construction activity taking place. On the old south bound (B'way B'klyn local) track, numerous wall tiles were removed, not fallen off. Some construction workers were working on ladders on that track at the north end of the southbound platform. This area was taped off. Elsewhere was activity of some power tools taking place. The missing wall tiles are in squarish patterns lending clues to possible replacement.
So what's going on? Are they getting ready for that talked about 2 track conversion of the line? Anybody have an idea?
Bill Newkirk
My guess is the southbound platform is getting the same makeover that they did at Canal St. 2 track conversion of the Nassau/Centre St. line is inevitable.
02/17/2000
Chris R,
With all that power equipment noise going on and taped off platform areas, it seemed like something important was hapenning there. It seems a porter pushing a broom would be considered at general overhaul for this station, but something's happenning there.
What about the two unused tracks when the line becomes two tracked? Some new ideas for storage?
Bill Newkirk
Yep, I'd assume they'd be used to store trains. Nothing much else to do with them.
Well, it sounds as if they're fixing the white tile there. The southbound active track wall isn't too bad. The curtain wall is ratty in spots and they've probably probed it for loose spots and removed them as well as the ones surrounding it. Next time I'm in the area I will check it out.
The Grecian frieze needs cleaning on the wall side and some fixing and patching on the curtain wall side. It's not all that bad - De Kalb is far worse.
The TWO-TRACK conversion isn't all that bad an idea. The tough part will be connecting it at Chambers.
Wayne
A new connecting tunnel will need to be punched out between Canal St. and Chambers, not to mention Chambers and Fulton Sts. If that line is in fact converted to a two-track line, perhaps that portion of Chambers St. which would remain in service will be rehabilitated.
It wouldnt be so hard to do. The wall would be removed[behind the bumper block]and the crossover closed.
Heard this morning at 66st on a downtown 9:
"We're stopped in the station due to a woman in the front of the train holding the doors. When she lets go, we'll move!"
-Hank
My favorite:
"E Train to World Trade. Step in please and stand clear of the clozin' dawz."
"Watch the clozin' dawz in the reah."
"Stand clear of the DAWZ!"
"Let go of the DAWZ! This ain't a taxicab!"
My favorite:
"watch the closing doors"
re-open
"stand clear of the closing doors"
re-open
"DO NOT hold the doors. Stand clear"
re-open
"STAND CLEAR OF THE JAWS OF DEATH!"
- heard on an R46 F train at Lexington Ave about 5 years ago.
Obviously. How informitive is that?
If I'm the woman holding the doors, it's pretty damned embarassing. If I'm one of the people being made late for work, I might just push her out.
-Hank
One of the Best Annoutsment I heard was from one of my Conductors at 68 Street. "If you can not fit in to this train step out and wait for the train Directly Behind us, This train will not get any wider for you". Harry Newgant said it the best " Hold the doors can be kind of a Drag"
Overheard today on the IRT 2:
"Ladies and Gentlemen, please, for your safety,
step all the way inside the car, and i really
love this next piece.. stand clear the
closing doors please."
My favorite: Step in or out you have 50% chance of being right.
Does anyone know of a link to a track map of Broadway Junction showing the pre-1956 connections with the Fulton Street El intact?
This message is directed to all who frequent this website:
The person (entity, wisenhiemer, jokester, whatever) known as heypaul was not amused by the use of his name and the posting of his home address and private phone number. This is serious business and will not be tolerated.
I suggest that whomever posted in heypaul's name come forward now before an all-out investigation is instituted by my department. I will be aided by Detectives Pembelton and Bayliss in the efforts to bring the culprit(s) to justice.
As well, Mr. Pirmann has given us his full cooperation in bringing this case to closure.
Sincerely,
Det. John Munch, NYPD
Please, leave me out of your little jokes.
Please, leave me out of your little jokes.
I'm getting more than a little tired of the posters who write these 'little jokes.'
Is there any chance that you'd be willing/able to implement a killfile, or perhaps offer the board via NNTP (so readers can use their own killfiles)? I know the latter would be quite a bit of work.
Just asking.
CH.
My sources tell me the FBI is expecting management to cause a train wreck this friday night because management is angry about not getting enough money.
Oh, have the little green men you see at the bottom of a bottle been speaking to you again?
Where do you get these ideas from? Please stop posting this stuff. I hear you have been doing this and this will get the board flushed like BusTalk if it continues. For the sake of other posters, PLEASE STOP!!!
O.K. Robert, time to take your medicine.
I've heard from a friend at NYCT that there is a company in the city of St. Petersburg (formerly Leningrad) Russia that produces a supposedly accurate O gauge model of the classic BMT Bluebird cars. Does anyone have any additional information this, and if so where/when will these models be made available in the U.S.?
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, you might check with the folks at MTS Imports or check out their website. They seem to know about most everything like that - usually because they're importing it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That company advertises regularly in MODEL RAILROADER magazine. They do have a web page, but unfortunately, I just took the stack of old MR's to the bus garage where I work to share with my fellow drivers.
The models I've seen advertised are about $200 price range, and are done in limited amounts. I don't recall seeing mention of the BMT Bluebird, but I could be wrong. Their ads usually illustrate a trolleybus.
Anyone know where Erik (the transit professional formerly known as Mr. R46) has gone? I haven't seen a post from this formerly prolific poster in the past few weeks - does anyone (Harry, Steve, or another co-worker) know what's up? Hope all's well with him.
subfan
I was wondering that too. He did post on Tuesday.
-Mark
Maybe he took a New Direction ... sorry I couldn't resist.
As Mark said he post this week to a thread about the "Field Trip", i.e. walk up the old Rockaway Beach line from Whitepot Junction to the A. Mr t__:^)
That gets a chuckle. Thanks for the concern. I am taking a class three times a week and time has become short. I haven't had much to report upon anway. Seems I am burned out on a lot of this lately.
Did anyone get any pictures of the N running to Continental last weekend? I'm sure it's the first time in a while R-40's ran there.
Where is NYC TRANSIT aka BMT LINES?
At 22:22 hours this evening, a post went up under
the handle not heypaul. I have no problem with the
use of this handle, because according to elementary
set theory an individual can either be heypaul or
not heypaul. Since the vast majority of the world
is not heypaul, and a given individual can either be
heypaul or not heypaul, there is no cause for
concern. The poster has clearly identified
himself/herself as not being me. However it is not
clear which of you this not heypaul is. However,
that is a problem that you other not heypauls should
concern yourselves with.
As Cassius said in A Midsummer's Daydream:
To be heypaul or to be not heypaul, that is the
question.
The whirring sound you hear is old Bill spinning in his grave.
"As Cassius said in A Midsummer's Daydream:
To be heypaul or to be not heypaul, that is the
question."
Whether tis nobler to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous posters, or, at times,...
subfan
The English language will never be the same...
Alas poor heypaul...
Does anyone remember the scene in the movie Spartacus where the Roman commander (either Lawrence Olivier or Rex Harrison?) tells the assembled, captured slaves after the climactic battle that he will greatly reward whichever one reveals who is not heypaul.
At which point one slave after another gets up and says "I'm not heypaul!" until just about all the extras in Hollywood have identified themselves as being not heypaul!
The following is being auctioned at eBay:
BLACK SUBWAY SANDHOG PHOTOS, BROOKLYN '28, Item #262008349
which can be viewed at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=262008349
Of interest to me is the third photograph, the caption of which reads:
Contract 230; East 15 St Foot (?) Bridge; LIRR; Aug 7, 1920
Can someone identify this location ? Is this in Brooklyn ?
Is this near the Brighton Line ? Is this the Bay Ridge line ?
Is this the Manhattan Beach branch ?
Thanks.
The date appears to be 1928, and the location certainly looks like the LIRR Bay Ridge looking south at E.15. That would be the substation in the top left of the picture, so the Brighton Line would be out of the picture on the left.
I'm puzzled by this. What construction was being done at the LIRR there in 1928? There is no car or pedestrian bridge, AFAIK, at E.15th.
Paul--- I think there is an overpass at E. 15th St. that I frequently use to bike over the railroad. It is a two way street that passes behind the substation south of Ave H station. I was just there yesterday, and they are building some new houses on the west side of E.15th right by the tracks.
There is a pedestrian footbridge at East 15th between Ave. H & Ave. I that passes over the LIRR Bay Ridge tracks. There is a street bridge at East 14th that passes over the LIRR tracks as well, for vehicles.
subfan
An addendum: Wasn't this about the time the Bay Ridge branch was dropped into its open cut? I think I remember that the original configuration had the LIRR at grade, with the Brighton line passing through a short open cut underneath it , until they reversed the levels. It's possible that the East 15th Street footbridge was constructed at about that time to re-connect the areas that were now seperated by the new open cut.
subfan
Wasn't this about the time the Bay Ridge branch was dropped into its open cut?
No, that was two decades earlier.
You can see some photos of the grade crossing elimination (including the Brighton-Bay Ridge Jct.) at rapidtransit.net, courtesy of Bob Diamond.
More pictures (also from Bob) will be going up as sonn as I can.
IIRC the Bay Ridge Improvement may have dragged its feet until about 1918, having started the work about decade earlier.
Alan Glick
I stumbled on a website this evening for a group that I didn't know existed. Anybody know who they are?
New York City Model Transit Association
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not sure myself, but it does look interesting. Might have to take a ride and check it out. Good looking out Anon_e_mouse.
I took a peek, nice photos of some of our favorite cars in miniature, also a planned show comming June 3rd in NJ.
Isn't this site great ... thanks Anon_e_mouse !!!
Mr t__:^)
Hey, Thurston. I checked out that site last night, when I was looking for more info on the claimed O gauge models of the BMT Bluebirds.
It's a great site. The model work is incredible.
I think I might have to reserve June 3 for that show!
See ya tomorrow night.
Doug aka BMTman
The Bluebirds are imported by a company called Allied Transit Services. They are actually manufactured by St Petersburg Models in Russia. They come with plastic dummy trucks which can be replaced by power trucks purchased separately from Q-Car Co. The interior detail on the models is fantastic!!!! I believe there is a link to Q-Car in http://www.nycsubway.org/transfer/transfer2.html. They MAY be able to provide info as to how to contact Allied Transit.
Now if only someone would sell an O-Scale D-type, Standard, Multi..... I can dream, can't I???
The Bluebirds are imported by a company called Allied Transit Services.
Excellent O scale models at about $600 each. Interior work is wonderful.
Allied Transit Services is the same organization that ran the Lo-V fantrips in 1996, 1997 and 1998. Nate Gerstein is a key member of this organization. It's run out where he works (an auto body shop).
Their address and phone number is
Allied Transit Services
807 Remsen Ave
Brooklyn, NY 11236-1622
Phone: 718-346-9000
If you call and someone answers by the name of "circle" (Circle Auto Body), you've hit the right place.
--Mark
QUESTION anyone take still pictures of the subway car models and shoot a or vidieos ??
i am not asking for pictures that are ALREADY ON ANY SUBWAY MODEL PAGE(s) !!!!
but the models that some of you have posted on this subject etc.....
Did you know that some people have made railfan window videos from their model trains?
I think Lionel Trains pioneered the idea of a miniature camera either in the cab or mounted to the roof or front of O and HO gauge trains. I have seen some impressive versions of this. They are very realistic especially if an intricate landscape was created on the layout.
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah, that's been on my wish list for a long time. I think it goes for about $200. At least that's what the HO version was going for some years back. Great idea. I'm surprised more people aren't excited about the prospect of seeing their layouts from the railfan window perspective. IIRC the camera was mounted in the cab.
Alan Glick
I haven't been to the "Modeling the New York City Subway" site at:
http://www.monmouth.com/~patv/railroad.html
for a while. They put up some new pages since I've been there. For example check out this particular page:
http://www.monmouth.com/user_pages/patv/Ted_el.html
Beuatiful elevated structure, trackwork and catwalks. I'd love to get one of those Lionel cab view camera cars up on that.
Alan Glick
You and me both Alan! :-) That would be ASSUME.
Doug aka BMTman
This is precisely why I have grafitti in my layout's subway tunnels, even though you can't see it from afar. One day I'm gonna get me a locomotive in HO scale that has this camera and *really* operate my own trains!
And one day soon I'll snap or scan some pix of my layout. I did make a video on it that I brought to the last train show I attended ... I'm sure I'll do that for the NYCMTA show in June.
--Mark
QUESTION anyone take still pictures of the subway car models and shoot a or vidieos ??
i am not asking for pictures that are ALREADY ON ANY SUBWAY MODEL PAGE(s) !!!!
but the models that some of you have posted on this subject etc.....
Did you know that some people have made railfan window videos from their model trains?
I think Lionel Trains pioneered the idea of a miniature camera either in the cab or mounted to the roof or front of O and HO gauge trains. I have seen some impressive versions of this. They are very realistic especially if an intricate landscape was created on the layout.
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah, that's been on my wish list for a long time. I think it goes for about $200. At least that's what the HO version was going for some years back. Great idea. I'm surprised more people aren't excited about the prospect of seeing their layouts from the railfan window perspective. IIRC the camera was mounted in the cab.
Alan Glick
I haven't been to the "Modeling the New York City Subway" site at:
http://www.monmouth.com/~patv/railroad.html
for a while. They put up some new pages since I've been there. For example check out this particular page:
http://www.monmouth.com/user_pages/patv/Ted_el.html
Beuatiful elevated structure, trackwork and catwalks. I'd love to get one of those Lionel cab view camera cars up on that.
Alan Glick
You and me both Alan! :-) That would be ASSUME.
Doug aka BMTman
This is precisely why I have grafitti in my layout's subway tunnels, even though you can't see it from afar. One day I'm gonna get me a locomotive in HO scale that has this camera and *really* operate my own trains!
And one day soon I'll snap or scan some pix of my layout. I did make a video on it that I brought to the last train show I attended ... I'm sure I'll do that for the NYCMTA show in June.
--Mark
QUESTION anyone take still pictures of the subway car models and shoot a or vidieos ??
i am not asking for pictures that are ALREADY ON ANY SUBWAY MODEL PAGE(s) !!!!
but the models that some of you have posted on this subject etc.....
Did you know that some people have made railfan window videos from their model trains?
I think Lionel Trains pioneered the idea of a miniature camera either in the cab or mounted to the roof or front of O and HO gauge trains. I have seen some impressive versions of this. They are very realistic especially if an intricate landscape was created on the layout.
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah, that's been on my wish list for a long time. I think it goes for about $200. At least that's what the HO version was going for some years back. Great idea. I'm surprised more people aren't excited about the prospect of seeing their layouts from the railfan window perspective. IIRC the camera was mounted in the cab.
Alan Glick
I haven't been to the "Modeling the New York City Subway" site at:
http://www.monmouth.com/~patv/railroad.html
for a while. They put up some new pages since I've been there. For example check out this particular page:
http://www.monmouth.com/user_pages/patv/Ted_el.html
Beuatiful elevated structure, trackwork and catwalks. I'd love to get one of those Lionel cab view camera cars up on that.
Alan Glick
You and me both Alan! :-) That would be ASSUME.
Doug aka BMTman
This is precisely why I have grafitti in my layout's subway tunnels, even though you can't see it from afar. One day I'm gonna get me a locomotive in HO scale that has this camera and *really* operate my own trains!
And one day soon I'll snap or scan some pix of my layout. I did make a video on it that I brought to the last train show I attended ... I'm sure I'll do that for the NYCMTA show in June.
--Mark
QUESTION anyone take still pictures of the subway car models and shoot a or vidieos ??
i am not asking for pictures that are ALREADY ON ANY SUBWAY MODEL PAGE(s) !!!!
but the models that some of you have posted on this subject etc.....
Did you know that some people have made railfan window videos from their model trains?
I think Lionel Trains pioneered the idea of a miniature camera either in the cab or mounted to the roof or front of O and HO gauge trains. I have seen some impressive versions of this. They are very realistic especially if an intricate landscape was created on the layout.
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah, that's been on my wish list for a long time. I think it goes for about $200. At least that's what the HO version was going for some years back. Great idea. I'm surprised more people aren't excited about the prospect of seeing their layouts from the railfan window perspective. IIRC the camera was mounted in the cab.
Alan Glick
I haven't been to the "Modeling the New York City Subway" site at:
http://www.monmouth.com/~patv/railroad.html
for a while. They put up some new pages since I've been there. For example check out this particular page:
http://www.monmouth.com/user_pages/patv/Ted_el.html
Beuatiful elevated structure, trackwork and catwalks. I'd love to get one of those Lionel cab view camera cars up on that.
Alan Glick
You and me both Alan! :-) That would be ASSUME.
Doug aka BMTman
This is precisely why I have grafitti in my layout's subway tunnels, even though you can't see it from afar. One day I'm gonna get me a locomotive in HO scale that has this camera and *really* operate my own trains!
And one day soon I'll snap or scan some pix of my layout. I did make a video on it that I brought to the last train show I attended ... I'm sure I'll do that for the NYCMTA show in June.
--Mark
Anon_e_mouse ... you know these guys ... they're at your East Penn Club show every 2 years, and at the Fall Trolley Extravaganza every year. They have the O scale subway layout - a guy named Vern (don't know his last name) built most of the models - a few R-12s, an R-16, some R-10s, some R-38s, an R-17, and some others. Their layout is a 2 or 3 track main line with terminal stations with island platforms.
By the way, the NYCMTA is having a show of their own this June. Count on me being there, videos in hand.
--Mark
OK, I just didn't make the connection! I found them as a "new link" off the East Penn site - should'a known.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's basically correct Mark. "Vern" is Vern Gillman. Other members of this informal (for now) organization include Nate Gerstein
(the defacto "leader" of the group - certainly the font of enthusiasm), Steve Olsen, who is a superb model builder in his own right, Quentin "Q-Car" Carnecelli, Steve Markowitz, Joe Frank (of mammouth O scale elevated layout fame) and my humble self (the HO division). I may have left out some people, and for that I apologize, but this is the recurring group. Nate and Steve are organizing the Kendall Show, and it should be a blast. Joe Frank will be there with many of his fine O scale models plus incredible videos (complete with sound effects) of his HUGE (10' X 50') O scale El. If my health continues to be OK, and I get back from Japan, I'll be there with my "tiny" HO scale El also. Ther are plans to formalize the group and do something "special" for the upcoming centennial celebration in 2004. There also may be a book on modeling NYCTA rapid transit and an annual yearbook review in the works also.
Please stay tuned! It is a great time for modeling the NYCTA!!
... Joe Frank (of mammouth O scale elevated layout fame) and my humble self (the HO division).
I had the privilege of operating Mr Frank's layout when he brought it to the Fall Trolley Extravaganza a while ago (when it was being held in New Brunswick, NJ) .. you are right - quite an awesome piece of work.
I also had the privilege of meeting you at the same show (I think it was you :) the one year it was held in Middletown, NY at the Orange Mall. Your HO EL structure is very impressive, too.
Didn't Nate build 5 or so R1/9s, also in O scale? I had no idea he was involved in organizing the Kendall show as well. Should be a good one!
--Mark
Wow, talk about photos to make a man drool!
Now what *I* would LOVE to know -- where did they get the NYCTA lettering for the GM TDH5301 "fishbowl" and TDH4507 buses in one of the photos??? I'd give just about anything to get a few sets of that lettering so I could repaint some extra Corgi buses I have.
Last weekend Doug & I stopped by the Red Caboose at 23 W 45 St after the MC swap meet & a bit to eat ... they have some MTA, etc. transfers. Maybe others can comment if they are exactly what you are looking for.
BTW, we also druelled a lot at all the high priced subway cars that they have in many scales.
Mr t__:^)
None in S scale, I suppose.
Yeah, and I almost thought I was in "The Twighlight Zone" when I saw a set of those Nickel silver MTS R-32's going for a jacked-up price of $895 for a two-car set! AAAAHHH!
Doug aka BMTman
You probably could put in a bid with the MTA for a subway car at that price when they are ready to scrap them, but then where would you keep it?
I'd put it in heypaul's apartment -- right next to the R-9 cab, of course!
Wow! I musta got SOME DEAL on the two I got!!
$895? Incredible.
I think he still has the R-10 painted in the blue/white scheme in his showcase, right? That has gone unsold for 5, maybe 6 years now!
--Mark
Yeah, that R-10 ain't going anywhere with the ludicrous price tag of 300 or something bucks for ONE car. PLEASE!
Those dweebs that run The Red Caboose should get off their high horse and price things for what they are truly worth and NOT by the fact that they are located in mid-town Manhattan, heart of the tourist belt.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm an indy filmmaker writing a film. A vital scene takes place in the abandonned City Hall Station. Does anyone out there in cyberspace know if it is at all possible to film there or am I completely dreaming? Will I have to build a set???
Just putting this out there. We're not even prepping yet. I'm sure we'll be calling MTA and the Mayors office when the time comes. But in the meantime, any feedback is welcome.
PS: Anyone know of any cool links re: City Hall Station? Also, are there tours?
You can first try to contact the transit museum. They might be able to help you. You can also contact the office of Government & Community relations (130 Livingston Plaza)
I hope this helps you.
-Mark W.
You might also contact the city office that coordinates all of the location shooting. I don't recall the name, but I see their notices posted every time a film co. needs to reserve curb space or block a street. I'm sure the mayor's office can put you in touch.
Are you talking about the IRT City Hall Station or the the lower level of the BMT City Hall Station?
There aren't any tours of these stations anymore because of security concerns by the mayor's office, but you can always catch images of the stations on video.
--Mark
As you already know, I will be running a walking tour of the ex-LIRR Rockaway Beach line. Well....I passed by and must say, IT'S A FOREST!
Does anybody have a spare chainsaw I can borrow? (I'm not kidding)
I am going there in a week or two to do some cleaning. Anyone interested in helping me? E-mail me.
Gee Mark, I usually jump at the chance of a project
that entails destroying the environment. However,
I am a little queasy at the idea of a project that
would have you wielding a chainsaw. I am not
questioning your sanity, but the idea of a project
involving subtalkers using chainsaws, has me
concerned about a possible massacre. It could happen
innocently. Someone might mention Rudy, Hillary,
welfare workers, liberals, railfan windows or
Niagara Falls, and before you know it there could be
a blood bath. This is a desolate area, with help
very hard to come by.This could be a very ugly and
frightening pre SubTalk event. I am trying to
envision what this message board would be like
without a few of its star posters.
You know, I am having second thoughts about my
reservations about your idea. I might even be able
to help you out. I recently purchased at a city
auction 3 gas powered chain saws that were seized by
school officials, when a student tried to bring them to a hotly contested interschool basketball game.
I will have to discuss my next idea with Mr. Willie.
But he plans to be in New York City to film the A
and L line as well as film my life story. He is on
a tight schedule, but with a little luck he might be
able to film your event. I can see the title in my
mind--- Clearing Away The Dead Wood on the LIRR
Rockaway Branch. This is really an exciting idea.
I would have to check with David Pirmann, as to
whether the technology exists to have a live remote
pick-up of the days events. If he could suspend the
message board for a couple of hours, and put on a
black background on the message area of a post,
perhaps we could project a live feed right here on
SubTalk. We might even enlist a few of the more
popular BusTalkers in our crew, and thus do a
simulcast on both BusTalk and SubTalk.
I know that many people would love to see me
starring in this event, but I promised to help Mr.
Willie keep a steady hand on the camera. But I will
be in the background cheering things on.....
Too bad those R142s weren't wooden, they'd have railfan windows in a jiffy. ;^>
Be careful. This entire ROW is infested with rats, garbage, old trees, broken tracks and drug dealers. Avoid the Atlantic Ave station shell at all costs. Being from the area, I'm familiar with this ROW, at least south of the overpass near the Montaulk Branch.
02/18/2000
And I thought we were facing a world of trouble with that Polo Grounds shuttle tunnel!
Bill Newkirk
You have about 150,000 trees to cut down. You should see the area around the old Brooklyn Manor station. Welcome to the jungle!
Wayne
Some of those weeds grew into trees over the years. Might I suggest C-4 charges if a chainsaw is not available?
Maybe you could presuade Rudy G. to let some Riker's Island inmates clean up and de-forest the Rockaway line.
Whaddaya think?
Doug aka BMTman
02/18/2000
Hell if we're gonna clear the ROW, we might as well open it up for transit use !..........not!
Bill Newkirk
It seems we will be getting new doors in the somewhat near future.
Read the story in today's Philadelphia Daily News
(...it does not say anything about changing those annoying announcements, nor fixing the announcements and display signs to announce/display the right information)
geez! did septa tested these cars with a prototype like the ta did? or is it that Daimler Chrysler screwed up in this division (Daimler Chrysler owns AdTranz)
Geez, first truck cracks, now new doors that "weren't designed right" ... can someone say R-46??
--Mark
While they're at it, maybe they could get rid of the "Doors Opening" announcement and use "DING, DING," instead of "Doors are Closing." (Which starts playing after the doors start closing).
And maybe they could also take some of the seats from the Almond Joys and put them on the M4s.
what amazes me most is the cost of the trains.
They would probobly have been better off getting
something cheaper (and more reliable)
02/17/2000
First cracked trucks, and doors that need replacing. I guess those scrapped Almond-Joys are starting to look real good now. Too bad they don't exist so the HIGH-TECH's can be modified.
Bill Newkirk
Even with all of the problems, I still like the M-4 better then the Almond Joy. Sure, the Budd cars served their purpose well. Perhaps their life could have been extended with Major overhall.
Alas, "New", "State-of-the-Art", and "SEPTA" do not always go together in the same sentence. I would rather take the risk on new technology then ride on a train that is almost 40 years old and has not had the daily inspections that kept them in service until Adtranz finally made good on it's delivery.
The M4 has it's troubles. Hopefully, in 2038 they will be looked at like the M3s were -- and not as the M4s are looked at today.
M-4'S SUCK, BRING BACK THE BUDD ALMOND JOY CARS(M-3'S)SOMETIMES NEW ISN'T BETTER!!!!!!! I morn the loss of the M-3's
Yeah, but that opening railfan window - where's the equivalent of
that experience on the M4? (It kinda felt like you were *in* the
tunnel standing there)
I passed a couple of M-4 trains at the Spring Garden stop yesterday
while sitting my way home on I-95 and realized just how bland and
generally unattractive the things are. I mean, they're little metal
boxes with slanty roofs. No humps, nothing to make it stand out
from say, a garden shed! (Although, not many $6.3 million door faults
on garden sheds - guess I spoke too soon)
Frankly, I like the M4 railfan window better than the M3 railfan window, because it is bigger, and there are seats facing the window.
I agree. The outside is pretty bland, but I really like the interiors, the A/C , the OPTO and everything else. Now if just all systems would work properly! The seats are coming apart or sliding on their mounts.
Chuck Greene
Those who might think we'll be moaning about the passing of the M-4's for something more modern in 2040 or so could be right. As far as I'm concerned, if the defects don't kill the M-4's, the riders will.
On a short hop last Tuesday, car 1062 eastbound had two paper plates of ketchup and something unimaginable laying on the floor, obviously left behind by some caring riders. An empty soda bottle was laying in a nearby seat. This at 9:30 AM (too early for lunch).
My return trip on car 1219 (next to the last of the order) featured two young ladies comfortably stretched out with their feet on the single fold-up seat, casually drinking sodas in disregard of the sign right in front of their faces. When I brought their attention to the sign, and noted that their feet would dirty the seat, I got a 'who cares' shrug.
Isn't the 21st century a new beginning for mankind!
Hi Bob:
It's amazing how uncaring and slobbish some people are. I work in a place where the coffee area is a mess. NO ONE lifts a finger to wipe up spills, etc. You are right, the riding public will kill the M-4's.
Chuck Greene
People are absolutely inconsiderate when they don't have to clean up the mess. I always clean up my messes.
The M-4's are easily dirtier( and stickier) than I remember the Almond Joys being.
You know what I blame this on the breakdown of?
Society!:)
Steve:
I'm glad to see you were raised as decent human. There's few of us left, anymore. Are you going on Matt Nawn's trackless trolley trip in mid-April?
Chuck Greene
I just might if I can swing the cost(a lowly student like me can't just do things on a whim).
Obviously society is less broken down under Broad Street than it is on the Market Frankford Line.
Sounds like the Almond Joys' replacements may soon deserve the nickname Mounds (of garbage).
Hey! I proposed that a few months ago!
'Cause sometimes you feel like a nut,
Sometimes you don't!
02/21/2000
Speaking of nuts, how long will SEPTA realize the big mistake of putting in cushioned seating in the M4's ? Maybe they got away with it with the "Almond Joys", but any kind of cushioned fabric seating is verboten on any subway system. If they had installed conventional fiberglass seating, they wouldn't be slashed and spilled soda could be wiped up clean. Somebody obviously wasn't thinking of vandalsim when the cushioned seating was proposed. It costs money to replace cushions, it costs almost nothing to wipe up spills. There isn't any cushion seating in the Broad IV cars. A conspiracy to jack up costs for new cars so the riding public will appreciate them and behave?.........NOT!!.........Go Figure!
Bill Newkirk
The cushioned seating on the Almond Joys was much different from that on the M4s. The seating on the Almond Joys stayed on, and was more like that on a school bus. It was nice seating for the line. I can't say that cushioned seating is bad for every line, but M4 style seating is.
Oh really? They've been using cushioned seating on the Washington DC Metro since 1976. I've not seen any incidence of vandalism there in many, many trips.
On the other hand - NYC suffered an epidemic of seat vandalism back in the 1960s and that doomed the vinyl seats on the R15, R16, R17, R21 and R22. Wonder why the R-7s and AB's weren't affected.
Wayne
Cutting wicker was a little tougher than cutting the red seats. It also had to do with Bratton's "Broken Window" theory -- if the transit police and the TA had cracked down on seat slashing when it first began in earnest in the 1950s (they had crime in the 1950s?), it may never have reached the epidemic proportions that forced them to put plastic seats on all subways and buses starting with the 1958/59 orders.
why is there sponge for seats on the M-4? don't they get vandalism? is it a way of saving money? they should make plastic that could contour the body of a person to make them feel comfortable
like the ones on the R62s?
yeah!
02/22/2000
Let's not forget, this is transit, not commuter rail. Passengers are seated for a short time, not long periods of time like commuter rail etc.
Bill Newkirk
Which is not true. Many trips involve long periods of seating. It's certainly as long as an express bus, and they get cushioned seats.
There should be cushioned seats, those who slash them, will be forced to clean all the subway bathroooms with a toothbrush. If they don't do a good job, they're flogged. This way we can get clean, open bathrooms and soft, cushy seats.
02/22/2000
Wayne,
D.C. and Philly are two different cities. It's a matter of time if not done already of cut up seats. SEPTA should have thought ahead, as stated in a earlier post about society breaking down. Society will break down a little more sooner or later, as the Boy Scouts once said, be prepared !
Bill Newkirk
LETS SEE, THE M-3S WERE ALMONDJOYS! SHOULD THE M-4S BE ALUMINUM CANS!!
LETS FACE IT THE M-3S WERE MORE ATTRACTIVE OUTSIDE. IN REFERENCE TO THE 2 GIRLS WITH THERE FEET ON THE SEATS, ITS THE PARENTS FAULT!I'M 26 AND IF I PUT MY FEET ON THE SEATS WHEN I WAS LITTLE I GOT MY ASS WARMED, ITS CALLED NO RESPECT FOR OTHERS. SOME OF THE URBAN TRASH THAT RIDES THE EL GET LITTLE OR NO UPBRINGING IN THE HOME BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS ARE AS MATURE AS THEY ARE!!!!!!!!!!! I MADE A COMMENT TO A TEENAGE GIRL BECAUSE OF HERE FEET AND HER MOTHER TOLD ME TO MIND MY OWN BUISNESS AND PROCEEDED TO PUT HER FEET UP ON HERE SEAT. ANY COMMENTS????????????????? GO FIGURE.
Why don't you STOP SHOUTING!
02/21/2000
PRT Aircar 2054,
What Pigs of Royal Island is saying is messages in ALL CAPS are considered shouting and bad manners. You'll see by what I mean on most posts here. I know you're new here so take with a grain of salt!
Bill Newkirk
THE STANDING OPENING RAILFAN WINDOW,,,, WOW! THERE WILL NEVER BE ANYTHING LIKE IT EVER AGAIN. TALK ABOUT A CONVERTABLE SUBWAY CAR! LET THE WIND BLOW THROUGH YOUR HAIR. AND I MISS THE SMELL OF THE TUNNEL, NOT TO MENTION THE SOUND OF THE WIND WHISTLING!!!!! THE MF LINE WILL NEVER BE THE SAME. A MOMENT OF SILENTS PLEASE!!!!!!!
Yestrday, i walked through Grand Central, via Track 42 on the platform. To the right, i saw other tracks underneath. Is this the IRT line? I am not sure, becasue once u get past track 42, all there is just a wall where tracks might have been. also, when you walk up the ramp to the exit, the tracks keep going. This isn't like the other tracks at the terminal. Is this because they were extended somewhere else, or do they just stop further up? Help.
The tracks that you saw extending past the platform lead to a loop that enables trains to turn around (particularly useful to diesels) so that the equipment will end up fully turned around on one of the easterly tracks in GCT.
Is there a track map for this?
There was a paperback book published some time ago ... Model Railroading ... I think by Bantam Books ... can't be sure of the author ... That book had track maps of both levels (upper level and lower level) of Grand Central Station where people boarded trains...
I believe this book came out in the early or mid- 1950s...
Your library might be able to get a copy via interlibrary loan ...
Best wishes to all ....
Morton belcher
Was it geared toward children by any chance? Or was it an adult book?
For a detailed description of the tracks and interlockings of Grand Central and other Passenger Terminals and Stations refer to:
"Passenger Terminals and Trains" by John A. Droege; McGraw-Hill, 1916; Re-published in 1969 by Kalmbach Publishing, Milwaukee, WS.
There is a map of GCT's Upper and Lower Level tracks. In-depth descriptions of major US railroad stations, including the original Penn Station, with a track map and/or floor plan for each.
Droege was General Superintendent of the New York, New Haven and Hartford Railroad. He also published "Freight Terminals and Trains" in 1912.
I guess that explain why some of the loop tracks are blocked off. They aren't allowed to run diesels in GCT.
If they ever built the proposed connection between Grand Central and Penn Station (admittedly about as likely as the Second Ave. subway), they'll probably use the loop tracks for the connection. They're below the level of the Times Square shuttle but above the level of the Flushing line.
Yes, but the locos can still be in the lead southbound, in electric mode.
-Hank
You mean they don't run in pusher mode, using a cab car at the other end, when going in the other direction, like a lot of NJT equipment?
MNCR Diesels certainly do run with cab control cars and Diesels in "pusher mode". This has been the case since around 1984 when MNCR bought it's first large fleet of cab control cars along with a new diesel hauled passenger fleet.
Prior to the 1980's, most trains were set up in consists without cab control cars.
The loop tracks were built decades ago by the New York Central Railroad. Original design enabled diesel or electric locomotives to use the loop. Some of the engines using these tracks included S or P motor electrics, New Haven Box cabs as well as FL9s.
The loop tracks were utilized by both New Haven and New York Central trains. These tracks eliminate the need for runarounds and enable trains to turn quickly to get out of the way of other inbound trains and can put trains in reverse direction service in a matter of moments.
If cab control cars had existed early in the century, these tracks would still have had a purpose in that consists could be kept in order rather than be reversed due to a runaround.
All in all the loop tracks have served many purposes and even today are very important to MNCR operations.
Even when Amtrack used in with FL9s there was no dual control, except on the Turbo Liners
I would guess that this topic is in the FAQ section somewhere, as we talked about this for several weeks, i.e. the 3rd level, the loop, where does the freight elevator realy stop, etc.
There was a comment about maps, I think in an old issue of Trains, but that there were some errors. (am typing this just from memory, so don't have all the specific details).
P.S. Trains, May 1975, article by Dennis Middleton (looked it up)
So, before we start this all over again, try FAQ.
Mr t__:^)
> Trains, May 1975, article by Dennis Middleton (looked it up)
Do you have this? I doubt the JC Public Library gets "Trains"...
-Dave
I remember some of the old NY Central long distance trains used to come in the tracks with the loops About a hour after the end of the run, the train left on these trains back to the Old Mott Have Yards, rather then disconnect the loco, then have the switch engine, pull it back, and then the loco. Saved time and energy.
Boy times flies when you're having fun ... I lifted the comment about trains from a post by "Marty - Latham, NY" July 1998, and no I don't have a copy of the magazine issue, sorry.
Mr t__:^)
I used to take Amtrak from Rochester, near where I went to college, home to Grand Central on holiday furloughs. There WAS one time when the train seemed to take an unusually long time getting into Grand Central, with a great deal of grinding, turning, jerking and screeching. (After an eight hour ride, you're very glad to pass the 59th Street emergency exits, because that tells you you're almost there. Hence, the impatience to get off increases.) When we finally could discharge, the exit to the main concourse was in the BACK of the train, not the front! I suspected that somehow or another, the train must have done a complete 180 before platforming, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out now.
Now I know!
I never heard the train making the loop first into GCT, it usually was the other way. Discharge pax then make the loop. How late was the train running, that might have been the reason
Simon: What you saw was the Madison Avenue Yard which is on the lower level. It may be seen from track 42 as the vault to the west is completely open.
Larry,RedbirdR33
it is hard to do a search on this site. i try to do a search and the only years i can search for are 1985 1986 and 1987. The search engine does not allow me to search years later than that.
That's interesting, thanks for letting me know. Next time I reindex I'll try to fix that.
For news about the fortuitous opening of the Bayonne & Jersey City interurban (serving some Public Service Coordinate Transit carline territory), I suggest a look at Hotline #268 at www.nj-arp.org
There's a picture on this site, which can be seen through this link (95.5K), which features R-36 car #9677. Look at the "EXP" sign, located above the cab. It's GREEN!!! I know that it's pretty unusual to see such a thing. I have a picture of #9340, which can be seen through this link (84.5K, taken @ 45 Road-Courthouse Sq, Flushing-bound platform), and it also has a green "EXP" sign. I think it's pretty unusual to see such cars.
What's up with these green "EXP" signs?
Besides 9677 and 9340, what other cars are they on?
Did any these cars ever have the more common red "EXP" sign?
BTW, I think I might have seen a car on a #2 train with a red "LOCAL" sign, but I'm not sure. Sometimes my eyes play tricks on me. :-)
All of the R-types from the R10 to the R40 (slant only) had these green/red "Express/Local" signs. Except for the redbirds, all the other car classes had them removed during their GOH.
[ All of the R-types from the R10 to the R40 (slant only) had these green/red "Express/Local" signs. ]
Actually, they date back to the R-1. The "EXP" signs were red and the "LOCAL" signs were green.
-- Ed Sachs
Yep, I mixed up which color was what sign. Got a nasty case of the 24 hour dislexia. Last doesn't it hope.
02/17/2000
Yes it's true, I do have a Green EXP glass sign in my collection, not for sale!
Perhaps when they were ordering replacements glass EXP-LOCAL signs, maybe they made them both green to save money or simplify things. You know, big deal, make them one color, no one will notice anyway.
(Except those railfans!!)
Bill Newkirk
Those lights rarely work and are almost always incorrect. I'm suprised they are even maintained.
Funny you should mention that. It reminds me of the very first D train of R-32s I rode on, in December of 1967. This northbound train pulled into 34th St., and the "Local" sign was lit up. My theory is that it was a Saturday, and D trains made all local stops along the Brighton line on weekends back then. This was right after the Chrystie St. connector opened. Of course, this train entered 59th St. on the express track as always, and by the time the last car whipped out of the station, it was flying.
02/18/2000
Speaking of lights maintained or otherwise. On Wednesday I caught a #6 train entering 59th St southbound. Instead of the upper marker lights being at RED-RED, they were WHITE-RED. Obvious goof, but a throw back to the days when marker the marker light system was used. The R-40 was the first car to eliminate that, Sorry Wayne!
What was the markers for the #6 Pelham Local anyway?
Bill Newkirk
I've noticed the marker lights are being changed also on the #7. Could it be that the marker lights were damaged as well?
Bill:
Marker lights for #6 trains were:
Cab Opposite Destination
green red Brooklyn Bridge or South Ferry
green red Pelham Bay Park
yellow red 177th Street - Parkchester
Go to Joe Korners site at www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/#lines for a complete listing of the marker lights for all divisions and routes.
I've actually taken some pictures recently of Redbirds with the WHITE-RED combination. (Coming to come to my web site soon. I'll put up a post with a link to indicate when I have them up.) Mostly on the 7 line, and probably one on the 2 line, too. I know from Korman's site that such a combo indicates a local train on the 7 line (To Times Square or Main Street, depending on direction), but no such combo for the 2. I think I might have seen a train carrying GREEN-RED on a storage track by 111 Street, which indicates the express. (YELLOW-RED indicates to 111 or WPB, I haven't seen any of those.) I wonder why those marker lights are suddenly popping up.
Yep, I saw one today at the head end of a 6 EXPRESS at 51st. I noted the number of the offending car, but did not place it into writing. In addition, I do not know the time as I am unable to tell it subterraneously.
If you're talking about the YELLOW-RED combo, I took a picture of that train at 51st Street (Downtown platform). It was car #8609. I think it was on Friday, because that was the day I took the last 3 pictures on the roll before I sent them in to be developed. The other two? A picture of two old signs at Broad Street (Stopping boards (6) and [4\R]), and an M train entering Myrtle Avenue.)
BTW, is that (6) sign @ Broad St a relic of the old days when BMT 67' cars shared tracks with the R types (I know that the [4\R], [6\R],[8\R], and [10\R](Saw one of these @ C.I.) are.), or is it something else?
I got the pictures back! The picture of the signs I was talking about are available through this link. The file size is a bit big for some slower speeds (179K), but it shows the [4\R] and (6) signs clearly, a little below the top of the image. Scrolling will definitely be needed to see the whole thing!
Those stopping marks were indeed transitional. The ones followed by an R indicated where a train of R units needed to stop, while the older signs indicated where a train of BMT standards should stop.
you can FLIP THOSE MARKER LIGHTS COLORS AROUND a motorman showed me how !!
it is behind the above the railfan window area !! color filters like i used to use for a trooper and
stage and television stage lighting etc..... you reach up into there and flip them around to clear
red or other colors whatever you want !! now remember REDBIRDS ONLY while they still last !!!
god bless them all !!!!
you can FLIP THOSE MARKER LIGHTS COLORS AROUND a motorman showed me how !!
it is behind the above the railfan window area !! color filters like i used to use for a trooper and
stage and television stage lighting etc..... you reach up into there and flip them around to clear
red or other colors whatever you want !! now remember REDBIRDS ONLY while they still last !!!
god bless them all !!!!
You're right about them being on only the redbirds, but I have a photo of an R-32 (#3893) that shows where the marker light and the LOCAL/EXP signs would have been if they were kept during GOH (I think). All you have to do to see it, click here. (I put a smaller version of this photo on my home page!)
Form followed function also.
The route sign (2), marker lamps (2, 1 each) and exp/loc sign (1 or the other) each used 600 VDC current for power. The (numbers) signify the number of bulbs. This added up to 5 - the number required to cut 600 volts down to 120 volts, the standard for light bulb manufacturers (and house current).
The EXP/LOC sign was on an either/or switch. The Markers, Route Sign, and EXP/LOC were on one master 600V switch and fuse.
The destination sign worked off the battery, as did the deck lamps. This was so that if trolley power was lost, the deck lamps would remain lit. The IRT retained their kerosene markers for that purpose also. Sealed beams, when they came into vogue, also used the battery, since they were really an adaption of automotive technology.
Streetcars ofter had similar setups, with four interior lamps in series with either a bonnet lamp or headlamp on an either/or switch. In Boston they used battery and trolley powered lamps in the same fixture on a relay, the battery would light if the trolley power was lost. P&W 200-cars had the same setup; quite common in the traction world.
I've seen the green "EXP" sign also. I don't know what's the deal wit h them.
Wayne
Express trains had this light lit up. Local trains had the red local light on. That's the deal with them.
Because normally they are the other way around EXP red Local green...
Hi R M, Regarding the green EXP signs, The following R36 cars have them: R33S 9335 9340. R36 9379 9435 has BOTH green LOCAL/EXP 9452 has BOTH AFTER BEING VANDALIZED!!! 9677 Please note that many R36 cars were VANDALIZED about a month ago. So alot of them have lost their BLUE local signs. Being replaced with GREEN local signs. Its supposed to be BLUE/RED. Now has anyone ever seen a BLUE EXP sign? I havent. Also R33s 8977 has a red RED local sign and 9065 is the same way as 9677 and 9379. and lastly R36 9493 has her signs backwards for some reason just like the 8977. Regards
I also have a picture of what would count for LOCAL/EXP signs on #9574. Click here to see it. (455K)
Notice that instead of a piece of glass, it's actually an LCD display. (it says LOCAL, and that's where an EXP sign would be.) Was this part of some kind of test project or something, to put LED signs on the Redbirds? (It most likely failed because the Redbirds still have the glass signs.) Does or did any other Redbird have this kind of sign? How did it work? Were they ever backlit similar to the LED destination signs on the R44, 46, 110A/B?
Very intresting I would suggest that you cut down the size of the picture, it takes forever to load
O.K. I've made a smaller file showing a detailed view of the sign. The size of the file is 13.8K, so those with slower connections can see it. (The file size of the original is 445K, which could take a long time to view. I should have said that in the original post. I get my pictures from a photo CD, which I get when I get the film developed.) Anyway, click here to see it.
Hi R.M this is something new have not seen this yet. Where
did you snap this picture? It could mean a # of
things.What I think is if the TA had to have these signs
specilly made for the redbirds then a few redbirds are
going to be around for several more years.I work for
M.A.B.S.T.O.A. surface transit and sometimes go to 207th
St shops during lunch since i am right down the street
there are about 15 redbirds on the tracks in the yard for
cars awiting to be scrapped. 2 of them are WF cars seems
they were last used onthe #6 line but most have #2
insignia Do not know what TA is up to
I took the picture at Grand Central station on the 7 line. It's not really new. It's actually a bit old: at least a few years.
I thought this was something new did not know it was an
older pic. It was most likely something the TA was toying
with to make the cars more modern until the new R142s are
put into service after the testing period. Chances are
good that the new cars have the LCD signage.
The picture is recent. The sign itself is old. Probably a few years or so.
I took the picture at Grand Central station on the 7 line. It's not really new. It's actually a bit old: at least a few years. BTW, I've never seen it in the "EXP" position. I think it's stuck on "LOCAL."
03/09/2000
I'm sorry, there's something fishy here. I don't see why the TA would even experiment with LCD Exp-Local signs on cars that are not long for this system. I don't think the average passenger pays attention to these signs anyway, they'll just check out the curtain signs to see what is an express or local.
Bill Newkirk
Its possible they got a manufacturer's sample or just did a durability test.
In a similar vein we have one Red Line car equipped with LED tail lamps, just as an experiment.
That sign actually looks like a stencil covered in green paint.
-Hank
Just curious. Was there a reason the whole thread about Hillary Clinton was deleted? Did I cross some line when I put the link to the poll on my homepage. Or was there alot of flaming after I left & went to bed?
It had nothing to do with you; I deleted the beginnings of the thread once the KKK got brought up. That type of thing has no place here, and I really regret that people who post here don't know that yet.
Let's get back to the original idea here.
For 50 years, rail freight and passenger transit have been in decline, and there has been much resentment of the public subsidies required to keep it on life support. In a world of abundent labor, cheap oil, and expansive highways, rail and transit is not competitive. There is nothing to offset the inconvenience of having you, or your freight, travel with others, instead of point to point when and where you want to go. The economist-environmentalist idea of changing incentives by raising the tax on fuel lasted for about the for about the first 10 mintues of the Clinton Administration.
But now the market is sending different signals. Truckers are scarce, and so is diesel fuel, so the labor and energy efficiency of rail seems important. Gasoline prices have risen. All this encourges conservation, but now the oil burning majority wants intervention in the marketplace to stop the pain. Stop the pain, and you stop the incentive to adjust, and isn't that what made this country great?
Under the circumstances, it seems that Clinton's proposal to direct oil heat subsidies to the worst off, rather than trying to cut the oil price in general, seems reasonable. But it is not enough for some.
I had a thought about Peter's Manhattan toll business loss point. Manhattan has both free crossings, which are backed up with traffic jams almost all the time, and toll crossings, which do not have back-ups at rush hours, and have little traffic off peak. The reason is that many people (including many of us) try to avoid the tolls. On which crossings do you think you will find the CEOs and other officers of Fortune 500 companies?
My guess is you'll find them on the toll crossings, avoiding delays. If ALL the crossings were tolled, and fewer vehicles were blocking their path on Manhattan Streets as a result, they'd like it all the better. So would those CEOs who live in Manhattan, and would have less traffic obstructing their cabs and black cars. The job loss argument doesn't cut it. A better argument is that tolls faver the CEOs, but hurt middle class drivers. But middle class drivers can always take mass transit.
[I had a thought about Peter's Manhattan toll business loss point. Manhattan has both free crossings, which are backed up with traffic jams almost all the time, and toll crossings, which do not have back-ups at rush hours, and have little traffic off peak. The reason is that many people (including many of us) try to avoid the tolls. On which crossings do you think you will find the CEOs and other officers of Fortune 500 companies?
My guess is you'll find them on the toll crossings, avoiding delays. If ALL the crossings were tolled, and fewer vehicles were blocking their path on Manhattan Streets as a result, they'd like it all the better. So would those CEOs who live in Manhattan, and would have less traffic obstructing their cabs and black cars. The job loss argument doesn't cut it. A better argument is that tolls faver the CEOs, but hurt middle class drivers. But middle class drivers can always take mass transit.]
You may be onto something here. Fortune 500 CEO's and other big shots probably don't worry too much about paying $3.50 to cross the East River. I suppose I missed the point in focusing too much on their reactions.
It might be another group we should worry about - the people who run smaller businesses in Manhattan. Dot.com startups, small advertising agencies, architectural firms, places like that. These people just might find tolls to be a greater burden and headache, especially since, as you've pointed out, they don't get tax breaks or other incentives. And it's precisely these smaller, entreprenurial companies that can relocate without too much fuss. Food for thought.
(Entreprenurial companies might use free crossings)
Actually, I'd bet that most of those folks live in Manhattan if their business is located there, and take the train or (if the money starts to roll in) taxis, so they win too. That's the case with the phone calls I get from people who want to open a business in the city. Gee Manhattan apartments are expensive they say. I point out there are these four other boroughs, and some suburbs besides. No way! Seinfeld didn't live in Midwood. Their big thing is they want to live and work in Manhattan but rents are driving them out.
[Dot.com startups...it's precisely these smaller, entreprenurial companies that can relocate without too much fuss. ]
Wrong. I happen to work for a Dot.com and there is no one in my company who drives. Who could afford to? This company could never relocate because the only way it can attract the kind of talent it needs is by being in NY. Every one of us here would quit if this place moved to NJ or Long Island. We would all benefit from East River tolls.
I believe the real beneficiaries of the free E. River bridges are politically connected folks who get permits to park on the street for free. Everyone else can either afford a toll, or is already on the trains.
The only exception is through traffic, but is Manhattan really the place for that? If all the approaches were tolled, I'd take the Brooklyn Battery tunnel or the Triboro on my way Upstate every time. As it is, I go out of my way to the Brooklyn Bridge some of the time, if the traffic isn't bad. But it is only the economic incentive, and the desire not to get ripped off, that makes me do it.
And those who go to Manhattan and park in a lot would be the same off as the costs of the lot would fall as the bridges rise.
(Cost of parking would fall as cost of bridges rise)
Studying economics, eh Pigs? Actually, the supply of parking spaces has been shrinking, but parking prices are still going down since the City is giving out permits to park on the street in droves.
I'm not familiar with how the permits are affecting the parking situation.
Currently, garage parking is expensive and as street parking for the non-connected person is scarce or inconvenient, people are deterred from parking in garages. If the tolls rose, more people would be deterred from driving to Manhattan. Assuming no intervention on the city's part to affect the market, parking prices would have to fall to re-encourage the same people to continue to drive in Manhattan and park in garages and maintain equilibrium.
[[Dot.com startups...it's precisely these smaller, entreprenurial companies that can relocate without too much fuss. ]
[Wrong. I happen to work for a Dot.com and there is no one in my company who drives. Who could afford to? This company could never relocate because the only way it can attract the kind of talent it
needs is by being in NY. Every one of us here would quit if this place moved to NJ or Long Island.]
Your company surely could find the necessary talent in many places outside Manhattan. Even in New Jersey or Long Island. NYC's supply of people with computer and engineering skills, far from being abundant, is actually quite limited in relative terms due to the lack of a first-rate technologically oriented university. NYU and Columbia are excellent universities, but their orientation is more toward softer, liberal-arts type stuff like social work, law, psychology and fine arts. Cooper Union is a first-class engineering school, but it's too small to make much of a difference. And the City University system ... well, let's just say that its graduates aren't quite what today's employers are seeking.
Ah the magical market! Look, all of these "prices" are constantly being changed in response to bribes and arm twisting(oh I forgot, campaign donations and pleasant cajoling). Anyway, the large capital costs of transportation are NEVER recovered from the "farebox
". If the price of gas at the pump included the cost of US military presence in the Mid East oil patch and the moneies paid to shore up friendlies there, traffic jams would be history. Bridge and highway tolls are like sales taxes--the most outrageous way to raise money from the poor and middle classes and redistribute costs of subsidies to the well connected. Our political system has some of the most contorted and contradictory dis- and in- centives to public behaviour imaginable.
What about all of the subsidies for the less well connected? How do you define subsidy, any way? How do you distinguish between a public service and a subsidy? Is paving the streets a subsidy? That's an awfully expensive thing for the govt to do. How does the govt recoup that capital outlay? How about the cost of providing garbage removal, police, and fire protection? How does the govt recoup these subsidies?
Obviously, a subsidy is always something the govt gives to some other person, who is less desrving than the person using that label. We are never going to agree 100% on what govt should spend on and where its revenues should come from, but it doesn't advance the discussion to stick a derogatory label on some expenditures.
Which is exactly why a "scientific" assignment of scarce public resources is thought ideal by some of us. The problem always comes down to choosing whose ox to gore. And guess what? "Democracy" ordictatorship 'them that has is them that gets' with apologies to Billie Holliday if I misquote. Larry Littlefield regularly and PRAGMATICALLY proposes the SNOBWAY as a method of getting elite support for the Second Ave sub because with precious few exceptions very little money is being allocated to blue collar transit in this country as opposed to the white collar suburban elites--see the ongoing legal case in LA regarding lack of bus service and the court order to purchase buses being disobeyed by the transit authority in favor of a new rail line for Pasadena. As to 'recovery' of paving, or for that matter policing and fire suppression costs, a "civilized" nation IMHO attempts to ameliorate the standard of living for all of the citizenry. Provision of 'public services' is a given. Expecting to make profit from picking up the trash is beneath contempt. Same for providing potable water AND many other necessities of common need. IMHO having turnstiles for the subway is the same as turnstiles on the sidewalks.
[NYC's supply of people with computer and engineering skills, far from being abundant, is actually quite limited in relative terms due to the lack of a first-rate technologically oriented university]
If you think NYC's supply of talent is low, you should look at the rest of country. In addition NY doesn't need a first-rate technologically oriented university from which to farm talent because the talent from other cities comes here.
[[NYC's supply of people with computer and engineering skills, far from being abundant, is actually quite limited in relative terms
due to the lack of a first-rate technologically oriented university]
[If you think NYC's supply of talent is low, you should look at the rest of country. In addition NY doesn't need a first-rate
technologically oriented university from which to farm talent because the talent from other cities comes here.]
The "rest of the country" is a mighty big term. NYC might have a lot more talent than, say, North Dakota or Mississippi, but it's hardly the only part of the country with a concentration of technology work. There's California, and Austin, and northern Virginia, to name a few of the better-known places. Or even New Hampshire, which somehow has become the state with the highest percentage of its workforce in technology-related fields.
Young people do indeed come from other cities to attend college in NYC. You might call it the "Felicity Effect." But I would doubt if many of them are coming here to study computer science or engineering or the other sorts of subjects that our economy demands. Attracting social work students from all over the country, as NYC surely does, is scarcely a major benefit to the economy. And let's not forget about all the NYC-area high school graduates who go elsewhere to attend college. Those of them who are interested in computer science and engineering have little choice but to leave, given this area's lack of technology-oriented universities.
[Young people do indeed come from other cities to attend college in NYC]
I was referring to the young college grads who come from around the country to live and work in NYC.
(NYC not producing engineering graduates)
Yes, but it attracting them from all over the world and, as I've said, it is very hard to convince those people there is something other than Manhattan. Moreover, the reason Silicon Alley shifted to New York is because, when the technology got good enough, the business shifted over to media content. The firms are led by techies, but that's not who they need to hire.
Hey, guys: For a novel about Brooklyn in the 1950s, I am searching for the following:
a) Stations leading to and from the IRT stop on Church Avenue in Bklyn (at Church and Nostrand Avenues) Sources for a map would be very helpful.
b) Voltage in third rail in 1950?
c) Third rail dangers: What would happen if a man standing on the platform poured a can of beer on the third rail? What would happen if he urinated on the third rail, from the platform? Urinated while standing on the tracks?
I was born half a block from this station, spent many of my pre-teen years in and out of its stairways but have been long exiled to New England. Any help on the above would be most appreciated. Thanks, (Brooklyn Exile).
[a) Stations leading to and from the IRT stop on Church Avenue in Bklyn (at Church and Nostrand Avenues) Sources for a map would be very helpful.]
(a) Stations along the line you are referring to (the IRT Flatbush branch) are as follows (from Franklin Ave. south): President Street; Sterling Street; Winthrop Street; Church Avenue
[b) Voltage in third rail in 1950?]
(b) Same as today, 600 volts (I assume the voltage was the same)
[c) Third rail dangers: What would happen if a man standing on the platform poured a can of beer on the third rail? What would happen if he urinated on the third rail, from the platform? Urinated while standing on the tracks?]
(c) Having no experience with any of these scenerios all I can say is that the urinating part is probably accurate. The beer part would be hard to do since, with rare exception, the third rail is located on the far side of (or away from) station platforms.
Good luck on your research, Brooklyn Exile.
Doug aka BMTman
[(c) Third rail dangers: What would happen if a man standing on the platform poured a can of beer on the third rail? What would happen if he urinated on the third rail, from the platform? Urinated while standing on the tracks?]
I would suggest "Interurban Interlude" by Cdr. E J Quinby as a source of inspiration on the topic of urinating on the third rail. In short, water (and urine) is a conductor of electricity. Kind of like standing in the bathtub with a hair dryer. But your fate would depend on how well you are grounded. If you have thick soled shoes you might escape unscathed. But given any potential fondness for what Woody Allen called his favorite organ (his brain was second favorite) I wouldn't recommend trying this.
It would be difficult to pour liquid from any container onto the 3rd rail since it is usually covered by a board.
Thanks for the help. Hate to impose on you but do you have any details on the E.J. Quinby book as to availability. Is it in print? Publisher? Any addl info would be appreciated. Thanks.
Thanks for the help. Hate to impose on you but do you have any details on the E.J. Quinby book as to availability. Is it in print? Publisher? Any addl info would be appreciated. Many thanks from the Brooklyn Exile.
It's long out of print but you might be able to find a copy using one of the online used bookseller consortiums - I often use www.abebooks.com and www.bibliofind.com to locate out-of-print books.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Many thanks, Anon_e-mouse. (Brooklyn Exile)
Hmm, often wondered why the 3rd rail is covered in New York, while it's
not in Chicago. There is nothing guarding the 3rd rail here. Also,
since we still have 26 grade crossings, it is extremely easy for
someone to walk right onto the ROW and kill themselves (3rd rail power
is especially deadly at ground level).
[I would suggest "Interurban Interlude" by Cdr. E J Quinby as a source of inspiration on the topic of urinating on the third rail. In short, water (and urine) is a conductor of electricity. Kind of like
standing in the bathtub with a hair dryer. But your fate would depend on how well you are grounded. If you have thick soled shoes you might escape unscathed. But given any potential fondness for what Woody Allen called his favorite organ (his brain was second favorite) I wouldn't recommend trying this.]
We're skating rather close to the thin ice of urban legend. As far as I know, there is only one known case of a man being electrocuted in this manner. It happened in the late 1980's or early 1990's in Chicago, and in fact there is some doubt as to exactly what he was doing when electrocuted (he may have made physical contact with the uncovered third rail, not just via the stream).
I was taking a ride on the B Line this afternoon. While entering Stillwell Avenue/Coney Island I noticed B Train across the platform. No problem. R68, R68, R68, and then all of a sudden, I see R68 - 2882 with windows from and R68A. Does anybody have information about why an R68 has windows from a R68A?
Does anyone know when subway service will begin on the connection
between the 63rd Street Tunnel and the IND "F" line in Queens?
It looks like it's close to completion.
Is there a web site with information?
It looks like the Q will begin local service to Forest Hills in the spring of next year. I hear the work is progressing so fast that it may even start in the fall of this year, but it's a long shot.
That's certainly going to stretch the limits of the present car fleet. Are there enough cars to increase the Q fleet to a size that makes this new service possible?
don't think so. as i believe they dont plan to send the current "Q" train cars to Queens. By the way, was on the "f" today and saw the tracks by 36th street. Is the tunnel complete ahead of schedule?
I doubt the Jamaica yard can handle any more cars, since it will continue to serve the G line even after it's permanently cut back to Court Sq. Whatever cars end up running on the extended Q will probably be based from the Coney Island Yard. And that means they will most likely be slant R40's or R32's.
Does anyone have any pictures of the connection?
but if the "G" is cut to court Square, qouldnt it be easier to send it from the coney isalnd yard?
No. It will remain all R46, and that means it has to be assigned to Jamaica.
A rumor is that they may cut the J to 6 cars. They may get away with that when things are running normal, but when there is a delay, it will be like the 4 or E & F.
The rumor of cutting the J and M lines down to 6 cars are very real. Since the bridge reopened ridership on the J and M has fallen like a rock. They barely get standing loads at its peak load points of Marcy Avenue (AM) and Essex Street (PM). In fact, this fall 1 train from each of those lines will go to the L which is where the former J and M riders have gone to. When the cut gets made to 6 cars, look for the R42's to show up on other lines.
Back to 63 Street, the connection will be ready for reroutes by the Fall 2000 pick. Also, as another side note, preliminary plans are being drawn up for the Manhattan Bridge flip back to the H tracks. One thing the TA does not want to do is send the B back to Astoria. It was a disaster in 1987 when it and the N had to use exclusive pockets at Ditmars Blvd. So instead look for the B to be sent to Continental Avenue, while the G gets cut back to Court Square. Thus the service will look like this:
B(north) 145/BPK to 34 via CPW local; B(south) CTL to STL via Bway Express and H-tracks
D(north) 205 to 34 via CPW Express; D(south)57-7 to STL via Bway Express and H-tracks
Q 21ST to BBCH via Bway Express, H-tracks, Brighton Express,
N and R will remain normal via Bway Local and Tunnel
As a regular rider of the J line, I can say that J ridership is about the same as it was pre-Willy B closing. 6 car operation during rush hours is not a viable option. Service cuts would be more likely, if ridership had dwindled enough to justify this, which it hasn't.
With the R143's on the way, don't expect to see draconian measures taken to provide enough cars for 63rd. St. thru service.
If it must be done, a much more reasonable idea would be to eliminate rush hour service on the M south of 9th Avenue. This service is redundant, and since the M was put on the local tracks on 4th Ave 6 years ago, ridership by West End patrons has dwindled dramatically.
Isn't that "M" service primarily in place to allow through traffic from Broad Street to Brooklyn? Better would be to route it through to 95th Street if the terminal can handle the extra traffic; or put it back as express between 36th and Pacific.
Wayne
I agree that the M should run to 95th St, because R service is worse than B service and the extra trains would help. However, since the M is a part time train, it would need a storage yard at it's southern terminal. The first M train leaves Bay Pkwy at 6:29 AM, but the first incoming M train from Metropolitan Ave. doesn't even get to 36th St. until after 7 AM.
The whole southern division has very few rush hour trains at this point. The Sea Beach and R only have 8 or 9, and the B only has 7.
Without the M, that is pretty lousy service on the West End line. That's nearly a 10 minute wait in rush hour. Of course, the 4th Avenue south of 36th Street and the Sea Beach have that now.
In the end, the only solution may be a big reorganization of service, something that would cost money no one is willing to spend.
Perhaps the Sea Beach should be run as a light rail line to 59th Street. Then the subway service could be reallocated to the 4th Avenue and West End lines. The Bay Ridge train and the West End would run express from 36th Street; the local train would start at 9th Avenue.
Sea Beach Riders who chose to continue to use the service would face multiple changes of train, but at least the three remaining services could run every five minutes or less during rush hour. The N and R have frequent service from Queens, but not from Brooklyn. If we only get 36 through trains per hour on 4th Avenue, perhaps that's a better way to organize them.
None of us have the counts, but it doesn't surprise me that J/Z ridership has fallen. The Willie B shutdown introduced riders to other trains. West of Bwy Junction, for all but a small area (ie. the well), the J/Z is redundant with the A/C, L, or G. I'll bet that lots of riders found that by walking a little farther to the L, they got to work faster.
Cutting the J and M down to six cars can happen and it would not result in overcrowding on those lines. A total of seven 10-car trains and one 8-car train would be freed up to go to other lines. The N at Queensboro Plaza is severely overcrowded, but the TA cannot add trains to that line because there are no cars. Besides, when the 63rd Street Connection opens up for regular service, the geniuses here at the TA did not order enough R143's to allow the required number of trains to be operated there. Six cars on the J and M is a very viable option.
couple of corrections:
The J and M WOULD be unacceptably overcrowded with only 6 car trains. I ride the line every single day during rush hours.
Using 6 car trains would free up no more than 40 cars (2 cars for the 20 trains assigned to the line)
The N line cannot be increased because the capacity at Dekalb Ave will not allow it, not because there aren't enough cars.
There are 212 R143's on the way. That would free up 212 R42/R40M cars from the eastern division. 212 cars is more than enough cars to not only extend the Q from 21st to Continental Ave, but it could equip an entirely new line (V) if it had to.
There's no need to reduce J trains. The capacity of the J woulldn't even allow. It's not a viable plan and it will not be implemented.
BTW, where are you hearing these "rumors"?
The B runs on a 6.5 minute rush hour headway. That's adequate. Most West End riders don't even use the M at all. It's practically empty when it rolls into 36th St in the morning rush.
Oh, forgot to mention:
J/M and Z ridership has NOT fallen. It's back up to where it was pre-closing. It took some time because the bridge opened much earlier than was anticipated.
...It took some time because the bridge opened much earlier than was anticipated.
Isn't that a non-sequitor? There is a lag between the introduction of a resource and its exploitation. What does actual introduction date have to do with this?
Somebody said thet J/Z ridership had declined to a point that justified reducing train lengths to 6 cars on this line. I was trying to explain the J/Z ridership has recovered to it's former pre-closure level, and that the ridership decline immediatley following the early re-opening of the bridge has disappeared.
Get it?
Unfortunately light rail will never make it presence known in NYC.There has been talk for yrs about LRV.s running across 42nd and 8th streets forever
how will the "b" go to Continental ave if the "Q" will terminae at 21th St? Will the "B" follow the "r" line? what will happen?
Also, this idea would work better for bridge service:
B-145th st or Bedford park blvd to w 4th st
57th St-7th Av to CI.
D-205th St to W 4th street
Q-71st Forest Hills to Brighton Beach-exp wkdys.
71st Forest Hills to Coney Island-lcl weekends.
M-Coney Island to Metropolitan Av(return to Brighton line-wkdys)
Myrtle Av to Metropolitan av-weekends.
The B will go to Continental via 60th Street, not 63rd Street. As I said the plan is as follows:
B(north) 145/BPK to 34-6
B(south) CTL to STL via Bway Exp (34-Canal), 60 St
D(north) 205 to 34-6 via CPW Exp
D(south) 57-7 to STL via Bway Exp (57-Canal), H-tracks, Brighton Local
Q 21ST to BRBCH via Bway Exp (34-Canal), H-tracks, Brighton Express
This plan is incorrect. If the H tracks are reopened when the AB tracks are closed or not, 63rd. St will still be served by a 6th Ave train. No Broadway train (D or Q) will run to 21st. St. If the 63rd. St. connector is ready and there enough cars, expect to see the new V line introuced through 63rd St and out to Forest Hills. If not, then a shuttle train would probably run from Queensbridge to Grand St., like it did in 86-88.
But as always, no plan has been decided upon as of yet, so this is all speculation, even if someone says they know the "real" plan.
Chris without divulging where I work (it is for the TA), I must tell you that this plan is NOT incorrect. You are correct that the 6th Avenue Shuttle will make it's return from 21ST to Grand Street via 6th Avenue Local. I forgot to mention that. Schedules does not want to send the "B" to Astoria or any other line for that matter. Back in 86-88 the B's to Astoria was a disaster, with them and the N's having to use exclusive pockets.
B trains to Astoria did just fine in the 80's. The T or West End line did the same thing for decades prior to 1967. Running them to Astoria during the rush hours would serve to ease the overcrowding on the Astoria line.
B trains to Astoria did just fine in the 80's. The
T or West End line did the same thing for decades
prior to 1967. Running them to Astoria during the
rush hours would serve to ease the overcrowding on
the Astoria line.
I think they should use the orange "V" for the 21st-to-Grand Street shuttle instead of "S". It's long enough to carry other than a shuttle designation.
Wayne
Schedules does not want to send the "B" to Astoria or any other line for that matter. Back in 86-88 the B's to Astoria was a disaster, with them and the N's having to use exclusive pockets.
What is the TA's problem today??? Before 1967 T's and QT's co-existed in Astoria. And before 1940 Astoria was served by BMT shuttles, IRT Steinway tunnel trains and IRT Second Avenue trains all running together.
There is no major problem running B trains to Astoria. It worked fine in the mid-80's and will work fine when the H tracks are reopened in the near future.
then what good is it to open up the tracks at 63rd street if they are not going to be used(unless they ar to be used on weekends when the "Q" is not running.
Whoa. You put the B in the 60th Street tunnel, but the N and R are already there. Are you sure there is enough capacity? I'm not.
More likely in this scenario the B or something else would go from the BMT Broadway line to the 63rd St tunnel, using the switch outside the 63rd and Lex station.
That would create a mess at 57 street on the broadway line. too much switching. also where would the d or q turn around. i really think that would be a mess with the d train terminating at 57 switch. the be will most likly go back to the original plan of running on the n line to astoria.
Why not run the B to Astoria? Can the 60th St. tunnel can handle B, N, and R trains during the same time period? Yes, because this was done the last time the Manhattan Bridge was closed. Can the Q and the R both run as locals on Queens Blvd? Only if the G is cut back to Court Square, but that is something they want to do anyway.
But isn't the switch of which tracks are active on the Manhattan Bridge supposed to happen about 6 months before the 63rd St. connection to Queens Blvd. is ready for service? Can it be postponed so that the two events happen at the same time?
Yes it can, and it did from 1986-88. I would expect the Manhattan Bridge switch to coincide with the 63rd. st connector opening, if there are enough cars in the fleet to support all the new configurations. When the AB tracks were reopened in 1988, it coincided with many other service changes, most notably the Archer Ave. line opening.
Not even that. The 63rd. St line has to be served by a 6th Ave. train. Routing the B, D or Q from the Broadway line would leave no service at the 57th/6th station.
A much more likely scenerio is the implementation of a new line to use the 63rd. st. connector should it open with only the south side Manny B tracks in service.
The 63rd. St line has to be served by a 6th Ave. train. Routing the B, D or Q from the Broadway line would leave no service at the 57th/6th station
Close the station for the duration. The necessity for servicing this station requires taking steps counter to prudent routing/scheduling practices.
The station is only 1 block from the 57/7th Ave Station - a closeness criterion which fits NYCT thinking for certifiying the South Ferry inner loop station as redundant.
Moreover, the MB closure will make this station very unattractive. People headed for the BMT Southern Division are better advised to go directly to the BMT Broadway line because there will be no through service south from 57th/6th. People wishing downtown 6th Ave service will be able to change at Herald Square.
You can't compare the closure of the SF inner loop to 57th/6th, as South Ferry was still served on the outer loop after shuttle service was terminated.
This station will not be closed completely during any reroute. There's no need to. And thousands of people use this station every day. Asking them to walk to other stations when thery dont have to is stupid.
They done it before they will do it again, remember for 50 years there was no 57th St/6th Ave Station. It is only a 5 minute walk to 7th Ave or if they need the 5 they can walk to 50th St or 53rd & 5th, like they used to do
I meant the F
It s only 1 block to 7th and 57th from 6th. This station has been closed before.
Only on a part time basis for temporary reroutes, and never during rush hours. No way 57th/6th gets completely shut down for 2+ years.
No way 57th/6th gets completely shut down for 2+ years.
It was closed for 42+ years, starting in 1924.
LOL. But the present station didn't exist until 1968. People have grown used to it.
But the present station didn't exist until 1968.
The entire 6th Ave Subway is a replacement for the 6th Ave Elevated Line. There was a stop at 58th St & 6th that was closed in 1924. Removing its subterranean remains caused some delay in construction for its replacement in the mid 1960's.
As stated before, I knew that.
Now, that we've settled the fact that a station at the location of 57th/6th had previously been closed for 40+ years a mere 2 year stint isn't that bad, is it?
No we haven't. First off, the area around 57th/6th is vastly different then it was in 1924. It's much more built-up. Secondly, the 1924 closure was of a hated el station (which was called 58th St.), which many in that area (mostly residential in 1924) were glad to see go. A subway station is different.
It's not getting closed. It's not feasible, not desireable and not necessary.
In other words, everybody spent all of this time, energy, and funding to build a connection from 63rd Street into Queens Blvd, for the sole purpose of NOT using it!!!!!
Talk about Money Thrown Away.
Two comments:
1. Is the service plan you described The Official Plan, or is it speculation? While I trust that many SubTalkers are sufficiently familiar with the system to make educated guesses, we in this group should not discuss a service pattern as The Official Plan unless it IS official.
2. I don't, don't, don't like the idea of two B's and 2 D's. Splitting would, of course, be necessary, but using the same letter for both halves was confusing in the 1980's and it will be confusing now. Better to use different letters for Broadway (say, T-West End and P-Brighton) to go with N/Q/R, and leave B/D for 6 Av-CPW-Bronx.
1. There is no official plan. All we can do is speculate.
2. All cars are equipped with signs for seperate Broadway B/D and Q train service. They will not retrofit the subway cars with new T/W/ whatever signs simply for a temporary reroute. Besides, using new letters would be even more confusing. A B train going up Broadway is easier to understand than some train called the T.
Chris, I will tell you the same thing I told Gotham--the plan for the Manhattan Bridge 'flip', while not yet finalized, is being worked on as you read this. This is NOT speculation or a rumor. The service plan I described is pretty much what is being drafted out on paper. The schedules are being drafted out by hand and will be computerized by the Spring. The bridge 'flip' is due to happen sometime next year. The "B" is going to Continental--bank on it!!
Well until I see the plan finalized, I'll remain skeptical. It doesn't take much effort to sound like you know what you're talking about on the internet when you're really just as clueless as the rest of us.
There already is an unused T and W, both yellow, on the rollsigns.
Some cars carry a yellow diamond W (R32's, 38's and the R40 and 42). But I've never seen any car with a yellow T sign anywhere.
The R32/R38 signs have P, T, U, X, Y - all in white. Also, I once saw a laid-up R-46 signed as "T to CONEY ISLAND / WEST END EXP"; it seems that allowances are made for just about anything.
> Also, I once saw a laid-up R-46 signed as "T to CONEY ISLAND / WEST > END EXP"; it seems that allowances are made for just about anything.
The R-46 signs never have route descriptions like "West End". Just route letters ("bullets") and north and south terminals.
The Bulletin of the NY Division of the ERA has published a list of all possible R-44/46 sign designations. There's very little left for the imagination! (I don't recall seeing "ACELA/Boston South Station/New York Penn Station"!)
"Bridge-Jay Sts/Metropolitan Ave/Myrtle Ave. El" would be an interesting one to see...
One word comes to mind when trying to visualize a train of R-46s on the Myrtle Ave. el: TIMMMMMM-BERRRRRRR!!!!!
The R-46s on Coney Island-bound F trains do say "6th Ave.-Culver local".
FYI, some of the R44 and R-46 cars seem to have been equipped with new-fangled "electronic" destination signs - several years ago, in fact. You may see some wandering around.
Apparently, these signs are programmed to flash a pre-coded reading such as "E to EUCLID AV / 8 AV-FULTON EXP." Whodathunkit?
All R44/46 cars had these signs installed during their GOH in 90/91
You're right, of course. I was confusing the R-44s with the R-68s, I guess. My apologies.
The R44/46 digital side signs have every possible route/station/line designation programmed into it. It also holds the names of every single station in the system, reguardless if that station can be used as a terminal. So if you wanted an "X train", which would be a "Culver Exp." terminating at "Kingston-Throop Ave.", it's possible.
I remember one time that one of the R62 cars on the # 1 train carry in the middle a designation # 11 it was a circle symbol colored in purple. (just like the # 7 train)
I remember one time that one of the R62 cars on the # 1 train carry in the middle a designation # 11 it was a circle symbol colored in purple. (just like the # 7 train)
That sounds very familiar, like I've also seen it. I think it was used for the 7 express, and most R-62's were formatted with the 11. After they found out that they couldn't use R-62's on the 7, they didn't bother to take down the 11's. Most cars might still have it to this day. Just a guess though.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
They could use R-62s on the 7, and they should! They should get rid of the R-33 singles which are a disgrace.
They used them in the mid 80's, and each time it would enter the tunnel, it would knock off a light structure or something. Since then I think the MTA hasn't bothered to fix the problem or anything, because the R-62's weren't really needed on the 7. Now that the R-142's are here, they should do something and replace some of the R33's(not all of the redbirds should go!!!)with the 62's. In my opinion, I think some of the redbirds will be given the boot off of the 7 within the next two to five years. It think it's time that the residents of Qns get something new. They're always the last one to get something new Who knows what will happen of our beloved redbirds!!!
Clark Palicka
Somehow, I can't see how the dimensions of the two trains are different, it's just another legend.
Even if it wasn't, the problem has been corrected, the R-110A was tested on the 7 even.
R-33 singles are a fine examlpe of american individualism and should be emulated throughout the system in every car type to provide that source of expansion sometimes needed to boost capacity for short term duration. Some routes could benifit by increases of 10%, 5%, 7.5% where stations limit the use to only 15 ft. or 30 ft or 45ft.
For example the #7 line, swap it with the N line from QBP east and north. Go from an 11 car 50ft x 9ft = 450 sqft x 11= 4950 total to a9 car 60ft x 10 5400 sqft passenger mover. train length 550 to 540 ft,
# 0f doors per side , 33 to 36, result more room , faster load and unload, I need help on the seat count.
different combo's of R-40/42 with r-68/68a could max out some lines to passenger comfort. The system is for real people, not just a giant set of trains in the metro area basement!
Well, if you want single cars use, UNMODIFIED R-62S!! and R-68s, get rid of those singles, and de-modify the R-62 and 68 if needed.
They have other unused numbers on the R62/R62A rolls:
#8 (Green)
#10 (also Green)
#11 (Purple, as you mentioned)
#12 (Red)
#13 (also Red)
and I believe
#14 (Green)
Wayne
Finally saw this for the first time Sat. the two 62A's assigned to the 5 were sitting in 18th St. yard, and the one headed by 1881 was signed with incompletely scrolled 11.
I was up there looking fo the 142 test, and as I first entered the station from the south, it had pulled into track 2 (southbound). So I got to touch it and look directly inside from the platform! It's so cool, with the lighting and everything. (The floors and seats were all covered, though.) The Japanese technicians were all aboard with equipment, and panels were open with wires hanging out. The south sign had a red circle 6. It pulled out to make way for the southbound 2 traffic, then I took the shuttle to Dyre to follow it (that's when I saw the 11). The north sign kept changing. I saw it go from 7 to 8 to 9 to S (all red diamonds) I haven't seen it shine green yet.
Side signs had 2 and 4 destinations. It does make the same eerie sound as the 110's and Washington Metro cars
A "B" train going up Broadway WOULD be easier to understand than a "T" - if there weren't already another "B" train going up 6th Avenue. Ditto for two "D" trains.
Besides, "T" trains once ran with no confusion, and (as I've mentioned earlier), the R46 electronic destination signs already allow for "T" service - and in any event they can easily be reprogramed.
Maybe we should give subway riders credit for having SOME brains.
A B train going up Broadway is easier to understand than some train called the T.
"T" was the pre-Christie designation for the Broadway-West End Service. In those days the BMT southern route determined the letter used to designate the service. Therefore 4th Avenue was RR, Brighton used the Q series, N was asigned to Sea Beach and T to West End. After Christie the B was a Sixth Avenue IND route that was extended to serve the West End Line. If Broadway-West End service is resurrected it should rightfully be called the T.
Hate to break it to you, but the "T" train has been dead for 33 years, and only us educated railfans would even know what it means. Take a poll of West End B riders and ask them what the T train was. I'll bet you that in a fully loaded rush hour train, you'd be lucky to find one or 2 who understand what the T meant. The letter T has no real connection to the West End line anymore. Using 2 different B trains (like they did in 86-88) makes it much easier to understand for every day riders. Let's remember the average subway rider is completely ignorant of subway history and we shouldn't be designing service plans that require a knowledge of the past to understand.
The Q was resurrected in 1985, after 18 years. So it does not seem so extraordinary to resurrect T after 33 years. Also, Manhattan Bridge work has a permanency about it. Thus it seems to me less confusing that T will be Broadway West End Exp.--Queens (Astoria or Queens Blvd.) Local, B 6th Av. Exp from Grand St. to 205th-Concourse (exp. 59th to 145th), Diamond B rush hour Concourse Exp., with D designation restricted to Broadway Exp.-Brighton Local from Lex.-63rd (stub-end tracks) to Coney Island. Q will be Broadway Brighton Exp. to Queensbridge.
I like the pattern of "high" letters (N,Q,R,T) for Broadway. Why not add "P" to replace the D-Brighton/Broadway.
(Why not use the "P")
Because some of the "shelter deprived" might think that's the place to do it.
I doubt it! Weren't they going to use "P" for the Culver when originally planning BMT letters?
Wayne
The 'T' will return to Broadway,but how you think or when you think. This line will be revived when the 2 Avenue route is opens its first section[most likly to 72 st]and run as the R train via the Broadway Express.The T will replace the R on Queens Blvd local route and run to 9 Avenue and Bay Parkway[from] 71 Avenue and rush hours to 179th st Jamaica
The "Q" was actually the same as the QB. It wasn't a completely new line (like the proposed T would be). Using the T to designate the Broadway-WestEnd line will be very confusing. And the north side tracks will not be shut down for 10+ years like the H tracks have been. Split B/D routes makes the most sense.
How would this be confusing? It's a totally different route, and I could see more people being confused by it keeping the same letter, and running parallel to the other line in midtown.
One letter would show people on the line that the trains are going one way, and another letter alerts them that the service is different (people are probably more likely to look at the letter, before the destination. Even in operations, they had to revert to double-letter designation in 86 to differentiate. New letters are much better for everyone, and last time, it simply hadn't been planned, they didn't know it would last so long, so it was easier just to keep the old letters, with he one-piece signs on the 40/42's still displaying the 6th Av. terminals (showing that the letter is more prominent than the destinations. Now we have 3-piece signs, and the Bway B & D were put on them (the signs came in during that last reroute), but they also have "W" on all the signs except the original R-68, T programmed into the R-44/46 electronic signs, and R-32 side signs (rumore that it has been seen on some replacement R-68 signs), and the R-32 front sign could have any letter. Now if they just get new signs for the R-68's (send the 68A's to Concourse), then you could sign up trains with the new letters. For any change long enough for them to print a map, they should do this. (I was so glad they got rid of the split routing for the '95 closing, although no new letters were needed).
Actually, people did fine with 2 B and D services. Adding a T or W would require new signs in trains, stations, and a more detailed explanation to confused Brooklyn patrons who have been served with "B" and "D" trains for a generation. If this service plan were to last more than the 2+ it's supposed to, then maybe it would be justified to use new letters. But it isn't. Split B/D service will do just fine.
(If this service plan might last more than two years...)
Based on history, the MTA should design a system to continue to operate indefinately. The city is scheduled to go broke in 2002, and will be unable to fund its capital program after 2001.
It should also have a service plan ready for a complete bridge closure, again with an indefinate angle.
The best indefinate service is to use the switch between the Broadway line and the 63rd St tunnel to run trains through to Queens. What is now the Queens Boulevard F would become a Broadway Express via 63rd Street, as would the second Queens Boulevard local. The B and D from the Concourse would swich over to the local track south of Rock Center and run on the Culver to Coney Island, taking the place of the F. Grand Street would be closed.
In other words, the Broadway line would become what the 6th Avenue line is today, and vice versa.
Your idea is logical to me, because full-time local service would have to be run from 36th St. Queens through Queens Plaza as well as Queensbridge. The F would be the best candidate as Queens local and run through Queensbridge, to continue as 6th Av. Local via Culver. I would suggest the Q as tri-borough Queens, Broadway, Brighton Express between Jamaica (Hillside Av.) and Coney Island. The M would become the Brighton local, the D being restored to this service if ever both sides of the Manhattan Bridge are ever open at the same time. T Broadway Exp. could connect with Astoria, as was in the 1960s.
Just in case the Bridge becomes completely closed, shouldn't the MTA be drawing up contingency plans? For example, would not connecting the Franklin Av. shuttle to the Fulton St. line and adding tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn solve part of the problem and be a whole lot cheaper than a tunnel under the East River?
Actually, you could run it without new signs, if you put 32's on the T (OPTO shuttles could have "S") and 40's or 68A's on the W.
The 68's basically have needed new signs since the bridge work started, i.e., when they were new.
The service change could always last longer that expected. (Just like 86-88, and 88 to the present) I think 2+ years is long enough. If people can't get used to route designation changes, then they wouldn't have done something like sending the E to Euclid, which was served with C trains for almost a generation, (and this was only for a few weeks). And isn't having a B & D on Broadway the same thing for people who are so used to just N & R service for well over a generation?
Then there are those of us who remember the T train, such as myself. Although I never rode on one, I do remember seeing one or two T trains of R-32s at Union Square on Saturday afternoons in October and early November of 1967 before Chrystie St. In all instances, their doors would be closing just as we got to the platform, and we had to settle for an N to whisk us to 34th St. or Times Square.
The T was a nice service to Astoria. Not only did it skip the local stops on B'way but it was one of the first lines to get the new Brightliners. Sure beat the R-30's that were used on the QB/QT.
Why would having two B's and two D's be less confusing than using T and W for the Broadway services? I found the two B's and D's to be more confusing. The last time we had that, they were using the orange B's and D's on Broadway. And some of the signs at Stillwell Av still have yellow B's and D's even though the B and the D have not operated on Broadway since 1988. Use different letters. It will be less confusing.
Yeah, right. take the B from CI to 81st/CPW. To continue uptown to CPW, take the B train on the upper level. Sounds tough. Might confuse a lot of people. Reroutes should be done for the conveinience of the everyday pax, not the everyday railfan. If it was up to us, I'm sure that we'd have 24/7 service on every line, and would use some routes that don't even make transportation sense.
-Hank
People who use the West End line understand the B train. Ditto for the Brighton D riders. They know it as the B or D, and changing it to T or W would only cause even more confusion. Besides, very few people would actually need to use both B (orange and yellow) or D lines in a single commute. Most Brooklyn D riders would get off somewhere along the Bway BMT. The orange B and D would serve upper Manhattan and the Bronx.
This service pattern went on for 2 1/2 years with no problem in the late 80's. Most people will probably remember it. Certainly more than they'll remember that the T train was the old West End line.
The confusion will be geater in Midtown Manhattan, where the two pairs of routes run parallel. The last 2½ year change was only supposed to be a couple of months, so there was no foresight. This time, I hope they plan it better. Especially if they do something like sending the B further into Queens. Then the F would be running opposite two totally separate lines with the same letter.
Which is why the B won't go to Forest Hills, IMO. The previous plan worked, with little confusion for 2.5 years. No need to fix something that wasn't broke.
I just thought of something. If the Broadway B does go to Queens, why have a 6th Ave. B at all? They could run the C to the Bronx during rush hours as in the past, and to 168th St. the rest of the time. The A could pick up the slack at 155th and 163rd Sts. during rush hours.
Just a thought.
It's kind of silly to have express service between 145 and 168 any time OTHER than rush hours. It should be the other way around if anything.
I wonder what will happen when the Manhattan Bridge S.S. opens
Gotham Bus Co., the info I gave you regarding the Manhattan Bridge 'flip' is being planned right under your nose. That should give you a hint as to who I am. :)
Of course it's being planned as we speak (write?). However, until the Official Plan is officially released (by an official), any discussion that goes on here is, by definition, educated guessing.
Then again, this group's educated guesses just might be better than the planners' plans, in which case....
Cutting the J to six cars? Not very likely. this would, at best, produce about 40 cars, or 4 Q trains. Better check the source of this particular rumor.
I was wondering if anybody knew the fate of the Paoli yard complex. I heard that they mived the terminus of the line to Downingtown and then tore out the yard. Is that true? Is the whole yard gone (like its now a big field of PCB's) or are there still parts of it left? Also where is the new yard, I think its a Fraizer or something and are they using the Thorndale yard? I really need to take a trip out there. Is the old Trenton Cuttoff extention a nice train to walk?
The old Paoli yard is abanded and moved to Fraizer. Fraizer is now where they keep some of the pushpull trainsets. Roberts yard at Wayne junction is were the keep the rest. also Overbrook yard was built between old 52st station and overbrook station on the R5. The old Trenton cutoff is not a good place to walk because its now owned by the norfolk and southern RR and they just love trespassors. Thorndale yard is basically a freight yard.....R5 and R7 still the best regional rail lines and the R3 to Elwin still has the best trestles bridges in the system (4) also SEPTA Is planning to extend the R3 back to wawa station, almost to West Chester.
I was refering to the Abandonned Trenton Cuttoff extention that ran fron CP DALE to THORN. There shouldn't be anything there but a roadbed. Are the tracks and overhead wires still intact at Paoli or is it just a field?
Bill Bradley made a campaign stop here in Boston today. He stopped and shook hands with people coming out of the Park St. "T" station. He then went on his trail to Dorchester, R.I., CT, and NY. -Nick
He is my pick for President, but it doesn't seem like it will happen.
Why? He promised to restrain health care costs, but provide a guarantee for everyone. Those who've read my posts know what an albatross Medicaid is around NY's neck -- I'd love a federal takeover, even if (especially if) a couple of those Manhattan teaching hospitals closed.
We have a system in which we all pay taxes to guarantee rapidly rising health care expenditures for the elderly, welfare recipients, public employees, and unionized workers in big corporations. If you are in your own business, or are working class, forget it. Gore used Bradley's promise of equality to threaten the privleged, and it seems to have worked.
Bradely also would have been less hostile to the Northeast. Perhaps I'll get the chance to vote for McCain.
had a chance for the first time today to ride on the new fleet of LIRR cars. The double decker ones are impressive(i rode the lowel level from mineola to jamaica). I must say that this is a nice and smooth ride.
However, as i approached the Hillside facility, i saw a double decker #0310 with graffiti all over it, like what the subway cars of the late 70's looked like. i hopew this one never sees service and why isnt it cleaned off?
[However, as i approached the Hillside facility, i saw a double decker #0310 with graffiti all over it, like what the subway cars of the late 70's looked like. i hopew this one never sees service and why isnt it cleaned off?]
That's one of the double-deckers that were purchased in the early 1990's on a more or less experimental basis and used mostly on the Pt. Jefferson line. A single trainset was used with a couple of old locomotives (FL-7's?) converted to dual-mode operation. Reliability was so abysmal that the train was known as the Bitanic. All of the cars have been withdrawn from service and presumably are being stored at Hillside awaiting disposition. Last I heard, the LIRR was (unsuccessfully) trying to sell the equipment.
<< A single trainset was used with a couple of old locomotives (FL-7's?) >>
You're thinking of the FL-9s, former NH motive power which were picked up after the NHs demise by the PC, later Amtrak, CDOT, the MTA and MN. Three units were assigned by the MTA to the LIRR in 1992. They were FL-9ACs. All three were damaged by flood waters while at the Shea Stadium maintenance facility when they were caught in a major rainstorm on Dec. 11, 1992. The locomotives were in salt water up to just below the cab doors. Number 301 (ex-NH 2000)took the brunt of the damage.
When should we expect the R143 cars?
The R-143s are expected to start arriving during 2001. However, NO subway cars are expected to be replaced by the R-143s. The next order (660 cars; no contract number yet) will start eating into the R-32 through R-42 classes (although only a few of the R-32s are likely to be replaced, since they're stainless steel inside and out).
David
The first cars that will be sent to the great layup track in the sky will be those !@#$%& R38's. I propose a "Good-riddance to the R38 fantrip" when the time comes. I'll bring the champagne.
I'll do the same when there are no more Redbirds on the Flushing line, if you know what I mean.
And the only R-32s going are the ones that are just as bad as the cars I mentioned above.
You mean the R32 GE rolling ovens?
The 32s won't be retired until 2006-07 when most of the new replacement cars are in[with the R38 going first].I guess most of the new cars will be going to the Eastern Division[J/M/L/Z]due to the R42 cars bring the worst next to the 38's[A LINE]. With the R32 being the oldest[35 years]down to the R42[31 years],its just a matter of time before these car go to the big scrap yard in the sky.
The R38's are scheduled to go first, then the R40's and finally the R42's. However, since all these cars have their days numbered, they might be retired not as car classes, but as the individual car needs to be. Some R42's are in worse condition than older R40's, etc.
Really! i thought since these cars were rebuilt in the late 80's early 90's they would have a new lease on life!
The R38's were GOH'ed in 1987. The R40 and 42 were done in 87-89, as were the R32's. Most of these cars will be retired when they approach the 20th anniversary of their GOH's. The GOH's were not designed to extend the life of these cars much further than that.
Why not send them back to be redone again
Rust and metal fatigue limits the lifespans of all subway cars, no matter how well you overhaul them. After a while, it becomes more cost effective to simply replace them with new cars.
when Are the R-42's being replaced? R they replacing the ones on the J/Z lines?
I received information on the whereabouts of 3 6th/9th Ave el car bodies used as summer cottages in Holmes, NY. Apparently, these are sole survivors of several dozen bodies that were brought up for a Dept. of Sanitation camp, later as a Boy Scout camp. Most have been recently demolished to make way for suburban development.
I have made contact with the archeologist (who is a SUNY professor) who rediscovered these cars, and am recieiving copies of photos and a local newspaper's article. A lecture given by the professor is planned for March at the Transit Museum.
Before we all go nuts and call for restoration efforts, the car bodies are reportedly in pretty sad shape, as wood bodies tend to do after 60 years outside, and several alterations. Think about what the Q's looked like after only 10 years of laying around in CIY.
Wow, I thought all of those Camp Sanitas cars had been junked.
I guess these car bodies are more well known than I had supposed! This was the first I had heard of them, however. It'll be interesting to see them.
Is it confirmed that they are true el cars (gate cars), or was a gold mine found in lost IRT Composite Carbodies? After all, they did run on the els in later years.... I do believe this to be a possibility as those cars wound up all over the place during WWII.
Gosh, what I'd do to grab an IRT Composite or a true Manhattan El Car. It would be a nice acquisition of a Museum like Branford if it was worthwhile. We don't have Manhattan El passenger cars, but we do have el cars from Manhattan that were in non-passenger service (Car G, 824).
-Stef
02/19/2000
Check out the March 1997 photo for my New York City Subways calendar. That definitly is a Manhattan gate ("el") car, photographed at what was Camp Sanita, Holmes, New York.
Bill Newkirk
Due to age of the car bodies and their construction, it very doubtful that one (or many) could salvage it after all this time on the ground without it disintergrating, much less restoring them. Sad, but true. This should have been tried maybe 30 years ago, when they were exposed that much less, and one would have had many more bodies to choose from. There are only three left.
But a set of photos of the three survivors would be a good piece to submit to this site.
I stayed at Camp Sanita for an 'overnight' when I was a boy scout in 1974. I recall that the scouts had cabins/lodges, I don't recall seeing anything that resembled the famed el cars, but I didn't explore the entire site either. "Sanita" was of course a truncation of "Sanitation", as in NYC Dept of.......
Seashore had a 2nd Ave el car (former shipyard railway) body intact but it burned in a brush fire in California before it could be moved. Supposedly there are more available but they are in tough shape. Ours had the gates and some of the interior fittings but no propulsion equipment. Of course, a "bastardized" restoration is better than nothing, in my opinion at least. It could at least have been an exterior cosmetic display.
Also I recall reading that some former NYC el cars had survived in Pennsylvania, and were in use on a tourist railway as late as the 1960s. I dont have any more information, but perhaps someone out there knows. I believe it was either the Gettysburg RR or the Penn View Mountain tourist railroad. I don't know if they still exist, intact or in relic form. Someone told be they were former Brooklyn Bridge cable railway cars. Again, just rumor.......
ALSO, allegedly in the 1940s some motorman purchased a car and used it as a residence on Adee Avenue in the Bronx. I walked the entire length of Adee Ave once and couldn't find a thing, though it's possible the body exists and has been added to/modified so often as to be unrecognizable. Does anyone know the history/truth of this matter?
In 1995 Seashore found a single truck open car from the Lynn and Boston Railway built into a house. All things are possible!
Some former NYC el cars had survived in Pennsylvania, and were in use on a tourist railway as late as the 1960s.
You are correct, although right at this moment I can't put my fingers on the reference and pictures that I have. I believe the cars are long gone, however; they had also been modified to the point of being virtually unrecognizable.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If the hardware can be salvaged, the wooden bodies can be replaced. If enough parts can be salvaged to equip just one functional car, then this is an excellent find.
Errrr, not likely, I'm afraid. The rarest and most important
components for making the car run are long gone. The reason
why so many wooden car bodies became sheds, cottages, etc.
is because they had very little scrap value. The parts that
did are the trucks, motors, compressor, grids, etc. Those were
taken off by the scrap dealer before the bodies were passed along.
Oh, I should add, if these are indeed the former Camp Sanitas
bodies, then they are supposedly composites, not gate cars.
Well without the mechanical hardware, all these cars are good for is kindling ...
The composites were also treated with lots and lots of asbestos. So much so that when it came time to scrap them, they had to be doused with gasoline so they could be burned.
02/17/2000
Yesterday I rode the (R) train and was in car #5752. To my amusement, the door chimes were not the usual R-46 type but rather the old R-44 type. Any other R-46's like this one? I'd love to hear that R-44 door chime on an R-62 or 68 !!!
Bill Newkirk
Several R-46s have the old R-44-type door chimes. Unfortunately, I keep neglecting to write down the car numbers!
David
Conversely, there are also a few R-44’s with R-46/62/62A/68/68A style chimes.
Actually, ALL R-44s (with maybe an exception or two) now have the R-46+ door chimes. They were replaced during GOH about 10 years ago.
David
The unrenovated R44s that run on the SIRR still have the original muted-sounding door chime. These cars also still have the original black-on-silver exterior car number plate.
Every now and then, door chimes malfunction, and you get one tone but not the other. I've also heard the chimes sound much lower than usual, as if they were under water. Best of all, the chimes on a '6' train I rode once rang BACKWARDS! It was Bong-Bing all the way to Pelham Bay.
Actually, the black-on-silver signplates on S.I.R. R-44 cars 388-466 are replacements. The originals used a condensed sans serif font (I don’t know if it’s Helvetica Medium Condensed or Standard Medium Condensed); the new exterior plates use Helvetica Medium.
The originals were also Fiberglas.
-Hank
It was Bong-Bing all the way to Pelham Bay.
(: ?Bridge Brooklyn at up end didn't you sure you Are
--Mark
LOL
There are no "unrenovated" R-44s on Staten Island. All of the cars were rebuilt around 1990.
David
They don't look like they were.
Not much was done to the Staten Island R-44s cosmetically. New windows were installed (people could see out the windows for the first time in years...the original ones were made of plastic and were permanently fogged over by the car washers), the blue stripes along the sides were removed, and, in fact, the metal under the blue stripes along the sides was replaced with stainless steel. The side sign boxes were removed. However, the 1970s decor was retained.
David
What were the side sign boxes for?
The 1970s decor is a lot better than anything in any other subway car.
The side sign boxes were for side signs! Of course, with so few choices in destinations and a PA system available, there was no point in having side sign boxes, so they were removed in the GOH.
As for the 1970s decor, I wasn't expressing an opinion on it, just stating that the car interiors look much the same as they did when new.
David
How many rollsigns were there, how were they layed out and was was their data? Were they automatically wound like in the subway?
Yes. There were few options. St. George-Tottenville, -Huguenot, -Great Kills. No matter what, the signs never changed. All had strip-maps on the reverse.
-Hank
The SIRT cars DO look very much like they did when they were new (except for the sign boxes) and the ceiling paint is peeling badly, esp. in #405, #408, #412, #420, #422 etc.
Wayne
You forgot to mention the cracks in the walls near the door motor panels, the now-missing interior windows (which did a good job keeping the rain and snow off the seated pax), lack of advertisements, and of course, the vandalism (stickers removed, seats scratched. The windows, however, are mostly scratch-free.
-Hank
I have never ridden the R-44 or R-46 cars.
How do the door chimes differ on each?
Thanks.
The door chimes on the R-44s and up have the same two pitches, E and C, one octave above middle C. However, they're not always in tune with each other, especially on the R-46s, and different sounding pitches have been known to be heard.
Until now, I never knew there were differing door chimes. Time to get my hearing tested and to stop listening to that heavy metal music ...
I have been exposed to the MTH door chimes on their model of the D train, which is supposed to be R-42's. I thought they sounded really nice. What were the first cars to have door chimes?
The R44, in 1972
Does that mean that the door chime sounds that MTH has on the sound chip for the R-42 don't really exist on the actual cars?
Yes, it does. The door chime sound did not exist until R44s.
Chaohwa
I am disillusioned now! I thought that MTH's models were supposed to be so true to prototype, especially those sound chips. I guess that everything delivered to MTA since the R-44 has had some type of door chime sounds.
Since R44, every revenue car type has ding-dong sounds except R110A, which door chime I still can't get used to. I never ride R110B, so I don't know the sound of door chime.
Chaohwa
You know, Mike's Train House is supposed to be coming out this fall with a O gauge version of the IRT R-21. If they put door chimes in the sound chip of the R-42, they will probably do the same thing on their model of the R-21! Won't that be ridiculous?
I've been away from New York too long. I have never heard the door chimes in person. I've got to get back and ride some subways!
Will they be coming out with a model of my much-beloved and unfairly demonized R16 anytime soon?
I don't know! I have no idea how they decide what they are going to produce. I was really puzzled when they announced the R-21. Why didn't they choose the R-17? It would have certainly seemed to be a more popular car than the R-21. I personally would like an R-16. I think you will agree that the R-1,9 or the R-10 would be very popular. A toy train manufacturer can more accurately depict a 50 foot car, than they can a 60 footer. If they did that though they would only be making IRT cars.
How long do you think it'll be until they make a model everyone's favorite R-68?
Page 32-33 of the MTH 2000 Catalog Vol.II. The pix shows beautiful replica of the standard IRT redbird. I don't really care if it has a door chime. Two unfortunate things though.
First - I would have perferred the model in the original color.
Second - I guess this means the MTH will either produce R-21s in their original color or R-33/R36s next.
BTW: They are also producing CTA cars for may delivery.
Train Dude: Where do i get the MTH 2000 Catalog?
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Try an MTH dealer. To find one near your home log onto their website at http://www.MTH-railking.com and use the dealer locator. Just enter your zipcode and the desired max. distance from your home.
Yes, the R110A sounds like a garbage truck backing up when it's doors are closing. The R110B has the familiar "ding-dong" chime, but it sounds quite different from the older cars.
I haven't ridden on the R-110Bs, but have seen them. Can't remember if their door chimes are any different.
Speaking of door chimes, did anyone ever notice the dubbed-in chimes on those R-38s in Crocodile Dundee 2? At least Hoyt-Schermerhorn was undisguised in that movie.
the door chimes on the 110B sounded like something out of the PATH system.
Does anybody know what the R-142 will sound like? Hopefully it's not the same as the R-110A!
Actually, I read some where that the experimental BMT Bluebird back in the 1930s had door chimes. If true, it shows how fast-moving the city was on that item once they took over the system.
they were probably bells used as chimes. the technology that is available today wasn't available then.
They had them on the green hornets
I did not tell the difference of door chimes until I used my camcorder. Usually R46s have a faster pace of door chimes. The door chimes of R44s, R68s, and R68As are pretty normal-paced to me.
Of course there are some exceptions. Sometimes I got on an R46 car with an extremely slow-paced "Ding-Dong!"
Chaohwa
Ever been on some defective (i think they're defective) door chimes on some R-68s they go ding-ding or just ding in some cases.
Peace,
Andee
Has anyone ever heard the defective (i think they're defective) door chimes on some R-68s they go ding-ding or just ding in some cases. I wonder what the reason is for this? Could it be related to their stellar PA systems?
Peace,
Andee
heard it. weird! heard one on the 6. the first chime was distorted and the second was normal. ever heard the chimes of every car closing on the R 46? sometimes they sound out of tune! i wonder if the TA fixes these things.
The #6018-6019-6021-6020 bunch of R46s is WAY out of tune. Each car has a different sound.
R46 #5927 sounds "A" and "F", a whole third higher than normal.
R46 #6119 sounds "C" and "A flat".
R68 #2658 has the strangest chime - one note is "G" and the next is a little trill going down from "G" to "C".
R62A #1992 has its chime notes reversed, going "dong-ding".
Wayne
I mentioned car #2658 earlier in this thread. I was going to let it ride until it was due for inspection but after hearing you describe the chime, I'll get it repaired immediately :)
There's also an R-46 roaming around that does a reverse "dong ding!" I've seen more than a few people in the car chuckle when it happens. Maybe it should stay that way to bring a bit of humor to the subway.
I'm sure that there is more than one. (snicker, snicker)
Steve - who makes that door chime module? I'd love to have one as a doorbell.
Wayne
If you have a computerized house, you can just use the WAV file for it. That's really fun, change your doorbell every week. Whenever someone comes to visit, a new fun surprise for them.
We have a wireless doorbell which currently sounds 4 note "Big Ben" but the tones it makes are somewhat reminiscent of the train door chimes. I looked inside the box - there's a little PC board in there - I figure if the train door chime is also on a PC board I can just solder it in place of the one that's there.
Wayne
If you have a computerized house, you can just use the WAV file for it. That's really fun, change your doorbell every week. Whenever someone comes to visit, a new fun surprise for them
Anyone know here I can find recordings of the door chimes on the 'net?
http://www.londontransport.co.uk/jubilee/index.htm has copies of the announcements heard on the Jubilee line and also has an 8 minute video of the line including video shot from the motorman's cab. Also includes some shots of the construction of the new line as well.
I got mine from somebody here, I'll post it anyway:
Visit: metrocard.cjb.net/subway.wav.
Wayne, Beats me. They work on 36VDC. I know I'll hate myself doe saying this but if I come across one, I'll keep you in mind.
There's also an R-46 roaming around that does a reverse "dong ding!" I've seen more than a few people in the car chuckle when it happens. Maybe it should stay that way to bring a bit of humor to the subway.
What exactly is the circuit that produces the tones? I'm assuming that it's not a digital recording b/c of the various abnormalities reported, so are the tones off, or in this case backwards, because of two pots being out of adjustment? Could someone possibly post a schematic so some of us could build the circuit for our own projects? I think a telephone ringer like this would be rather fun.
If any of you remember the original Concentration game show, the one hosted by Hugh Downs and later Bob Clayton (and briefly Ed McMahon), there used to be a series of doorbell chimes which would sound when they were out of time. They were pitched in the same E and C one octave above middle C as are the door chimes on today's subway cars which have them.
There is one that I know of. Car #2658 has a distorted chime.
The R68A's have the same problem.
I know one of the 6200s that run on the G line has the door chimes you described. I think it's 6252.
Does any one know why door chimes were not added to GOH'd R-32/38/40/42s??? PATH added door chimes when their 1st PA class cars were rebuit.
Peace,
Andee
The late Dick Goodlatte was NYCT's Chief Mechanical Officer at the time the GOH program was in high gear. He didn't want to "spend" a coupler pin on door chimes. If I'm not mistaken, though, the electric portions on several car classes were replaced with new units with an extra row of pins!
David
Thank You
Peace,
Andee
Hmm, that doesn't sound right. The door chimes don't require
another electric portion pin, but they do require an extra
contact at each door operator to provide an "any door fully open"
sensor.
The answer I posted before was the answer I was given in response to an Employee Suggestion I made about 10 years ago. Unfortunately, I can't find the documentation in my records.
David
The late Dick Goodlatte was NYCT's Chief Mechanical Officer
How was the cappuccino then?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Can they be retrofitted? Would be a nice touch.
Wayne
This may be a dumb question, but why weren't door chimes added on all subway cars, including the R27, R33, etc.?
Is it for the same reason to keep costs down, or were the older subway cars not able to have door chimes wired into their circuitry?
Thanks.
B"H
Does anyone know about the construction of the W4 st station on the 8th Ave IND? What I was curious about is this...Did they build the lower level at the same time, assuming that they were going to build the 6th ave line, or did they simply tunnel under the original upper level station?
Thanks,
yitz
I would assume the lower level was built at the same time, as the complex interlocking just south of this station was designed to feed into the 6th Ave. line from day one. The 6th and 8th Ave lines were designed at the same time. However, due to the war, construction of the originally planned express tracks was not done until the Chrystie St. connection opened in 1967. This was not the original plan for this line, as the express tracks were supposed to feed the never-built Houston St. tunnel after leaving the local at 2nd Ave. The Chrystie St. plan was a scaled back compromise.
B"H
Thanks for the info. That question had been bugging me for awhile. I have many other such questions, but I only seem to remember them when i'm on a train....imagine that!
:o)
The IND was constructed with expansion in mind. There are many areas where things were built in anticipation of later lines that were never constructed. There are stations at Utica Ave./Fulton St. and S4th st. in Brooklyn that have no lines serving them.
Then there's tne never-used Roosevelt Ave. terminal station.
... and the Second Av. Subway was planned way back then ... over 60 years ago!
The entire station was built at once, as was the arrangement at 7th Ave. and 5th Ave. at 53rd St. When you stop and think about it, had the 6th Ave. line not been built, that lower level at W. 4th St. would have fallen into the never-used station category.
Although the 6th Ave express tracks weren't built until the 60's, the local tracks were built in the 30's-the same time as the station
CNN is running a nice piece on the new New York City subway and bus simulators. Jeanne Mose overan her stations, went into emergency twice and the images were awesome. A guy on the bus simulator was having fun wiping out cabs. I want one!!!
Bill
I am a student with a few questions about the 7 line that haven't been answered by history books and websites, and would appreciate any answers or referrals.
What determined the construction method of each section - why does the structure change from steel to concrete just before the 33rd Street station?
Why is the 7 elevated to begin with - because of economy, or soil conditions, or both, or something else? Why is the Main Street station back underground?
Does anyone know how high above street level the platforms or tracks are at 33rd Street station?
Thank you for any help.
What determined the construction method of each section - why does the structure change from steel to concrete just before the 33rd Street station?
Certain portions of the subway, especially those built above parkways (Ocean Parkway, Pelham Parkway, Ft Hamilton Parkway, to name a few) were built using concrete to make them look "prettier". The same assumption can be made for the structure on Queens Blvd.
Interesting fact, though, the structure that used to carry the 9th Ave El / Polo Grounds Shuttle over Jerome Ave in the Bronx was also concrete - very similar to that of the 7 at Queens Blvd, only much smaller. I'll assume this was done so it "blended in" with the portion of the station that was underground.
Why is the 7 elevated to begin with - because of economy, or soil conditions, or both, or something else? Why is the Main Street station back underground?
Because when it was built, most of Queens was farmland, and it was much cheaper to build an elevated than a tunnel. Main St is underground because it was intended that the line be extended further east to Bell Blvd in Queens. That never happened.
--Mark
Why would it need to be in a tunnel if it was to be extended further east? Rising terrain?
Rising terrain?
Yes. The original original LIRR ROW east of Main St. was also in a tunnel.
Although the terrain rises slightly at this point, I doubt that's the reason that the Main St. station is underground, even if eastern expansion were undertaken. It's only a slight grade up Roosevelt Avenue (I've walked it hundreds of times). More likely is that by the time the extension to Main St. was built (1927), this was already a fairly congested central business district and the merchants and others lobbied for the station to be underground.
Although the terrain rises slightly at this point, I doubt that's the reason that the Main St. station is underground, even if eastern expansion were undertaken. It's only a slight grade up Roosevelt Avenue (I've walked it hundreds of times).
Ground elevation in feet above sea level along Roosevelt is as follows: 33' @ Prince St; 43' @ Main St and 58' @ Union St. That's a 25 foot change over the length of the station. That is enough to cause them to go underground.
Take a look at the current LIRR ROW, which is one block to the south and has the same terrain. It is elevated at Main St and in a trench by Union St. The original LIRR ROW was at grade at Main St and went into a tunnel just east of it.
More likely is that by the time the extension to Main St. was built (1927), this was already a fairly congested central business district and the merchants and others lobbied for the station to be underground.
Actually, the area was absolutely bucolic as pictures from the early 1920's indicate. The merchants actually lost out because the line went underground. The entire row on the south side of Roosevelt was demolished to make room for the subway. This property would have been saved, had elevated construction been practicable.
On page 102 of Stan Fischler's book "The Subway" there is a great picture of the concrete Queens Blvd El at the 33rd-Rawson Street Station in the middle of desolate farm land taken in 1917. (The only thing bad about the picture is that it was taken without any train on it!!)
Yes, in that photo, there's nothing but wide open space as far as the eye can see.
Even by the 1930s, when the IND Queens line was being built, that area was still mostly open space. That line was a piece of cake to build.
Main St is underground because it was intended that the line be extended further east to Bell Blvd in Queens. That never happened.
The Guiliani Administration invested $30 million to prevent it from ever happening in the future. Their "rehabilitation" of the Main St station prevents eastward track expansion.
It doesn't prevent it, it just makes it look stupid.
Actually, considering the inefficency and absutdity of spending millions on building something and then tearing it apart a few years down the line, I'd say putting in the new escalators and elevators at Main Street makes it more likely they would tear it up in the future to build a Flushing line extension. We are talking about the MTA, remember.
point , set, match!
Hi,
Just wondering: if the NX had been the "BX", and the service had been able to make express stops on the West End line at Bay Parkway, 62nd St. and 9th Ave., might it have attacted enough additional riders that it would have been retained? The "N" in NX really is irrelevant: the service simply used the Sea Beach express tracks and never was accessible to Sea Beach riders since it went express from Coney Island to 59th St. Maybe if it had other stops where it could pick up passengers, as on the West End, it would have succeeded. The downside: north of Coney Island, it would have had to cross from the N to the B tracks. Would this have significantly impeded N and B trains? significantly?
Mike Rothenberg
The only problem is when people think of "BX", they will think it is the abbreviation of Bronx.
If I were in the 60s, I would use "TX" to represent the West End Express because there were "T" and "TT" on the West End Line then.
Chaohwa
BX was alsu used to denote a 3-car unit of BMT standards with a motorless trailer in the middle.
And a certain kind of cable.
I would use just T. Because what's up with these double letter expresses?
Back then single letters were for express and double letters local, the NX and the Q trains were the exception
The Q was an express. The QB and QT were local.
And why post this? Didn't I post about the WEIRD double letter expresses?
At that time, there already was a "T" West End Express.
--Mark
But the T was eliminated at the same time the NX was created. This would just be a rerouted T.
It might have worked as a West End Express.
However, the TA did not really want to run any Coney Island Express. They just tried the NX to shut up Brighton riders who were complaining about the loss of the Broadway-Brighton Express.
When it was obvious that the NX wasn't going to attract much ridership, it was proposed it make stops to Kings Highway, then run super-express, but the TA had no interest in any measure to save the service.
Perhaps it would have made more sense to run a "JX" express via Nassau st. along the Sea Beach express and leave the QB as the only Brighton local.
Perhaps it would have made more sense to run a "JX" express via Nassau st. along the Sea Beach express and leave the QB as the only Brighton local.
The NX was only five trains per hour, not enough for the "J" service.
The NX service was desinged to give a fast express ride into mid-town from Brighton Beach, Ocean Parkway, West 8th, and Stillwell Ave. From there (at least in 1967), the fastest route was via the Sea Beach line express tracks.
-- Ed Sachs
Hey Ed: Doesn't that name sound so nice S E A B E A C H? Why don't you clue my buddy Brighton1ExpBob on that. Actually, I'm still in the dark as to why we don;t run Sea Beach express at certain times during the Brooklyn run. From Coney Island say at five or six in the evening there should be two "N" trains, one local and one express. But hey, who am I? I don't even live in New York.
Ed you had to mention that, Now Sea Beach Fred is strutting around like a PEACOCK. but remind him the plan did not work and only lasted a few months, and now it is the SEA BEACH LOCAL MAKING ALL STOPS BETWEEN CONEY ISLAND AND ASTORIA QUEENS
The following is being auctioned at eBay:
BUILDING BROOKLYN SUBWAY PHOTOS, L@@K! Item #261991724
which can be viewed at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261991724
Five photographs depicting the construction of the "new" Botanic Garden station at the arch below Eastern Parkway.
Wasn't this around the time when this stretch of track was
still considered part of the Brighton "mainline" ?
When were the turnouts from the Fulton Street elevated removed
at Franklin Avenue ? (and thus was born "The Shuttle" . . .)
I think the Fulton and Brighton Lines were disconnected in 1920, when the Brighton was connected to the 4th Ave. Subway at DeKalb. Great pics. Are these yours?
Alan Glick
I'm not sure the physical connection was broken when the brighton was connected to DeKalb, but regular service was definitely ended at that time. Is it possible that this station was constructed as a replacement for the old Consumer's Park station of Malbone St. Wreck fame?
subfan
"Is it possible that this station [Botanic Gardens] was constructed as a replacement for the old Consumer's Park station of Malbone St. Wreck fame?"
That's my understanding.
Alan Glick
Wasn't this around the time when this stretch of track was
still considered part of the Brighton "mainline" ?
When were the turnouts from the Fulton Street elevated removed
at Franklin Avenue ? (and thus was born "The Shuttle" . . .)
I believe the turnouts to the Fulton Line were removed at the same time as the Brighton opened to DeKalb, 1920.
However, it was no later than 1924, when the line and Franklin Avenue station were upgraded to accomodate 6-car steel trains.
Botanic Gardens was built 1928, later than either event.
I would like to thank all who said good about my railfan window vidieos of # 7 # 2 # 5 A Q E
and those of you who gave me good reviews !!
I will be in NEW YORK CITY to shoot the ""L"" line this march 2000 and would like to meet all
new york subtalkers there at that time the first week of march 2000........
again thank you i will be off line after february 22 2000 i am driving to DETROIT first then to NEW YORK CITY
I hope to last three days there the drive home from there .
I must re shoot the # 5 then # 4 and the "" A "" to far rockway and the L.....
to heypaul and chens subway page and those of you who mailed me requests etc THANK YOU !!!!
>>>"...february 22 2000 i am driving to DETROIT first then to NEW YORK CITY"<<<
Driving!!! and you call your self a rail fan!! 8-)
Peace,
Andee
PS: I am interested in some of your videos, please E-mail me a price list.
THANKS
I have not finished it yet, I am still working on the Q Line, had to stop at certain stations to check out my old neighborhood(Kings Highway). West 4th St for a Pizza on McDougald and Bleeker, 50th St to go Ice Skating at Rock Plaza. All from my house in Hawaii. I can dream can t I? But it is great so far.
There's been some talk between a couple of us about a "Field Trip" over the entire "L" while you're here. I'll join if it's a week day about 6 PM because:
1. I've never done the L from Manhattan to Eastern Parkway.
2. At the end I can easily dbl back & catch the LIRR at Atl Ave
3. I like the Slant 40s almost as much as the Red Birds
Anyone else who wants to tag along send private e-mail to Doug or I
Mr t__:^)
There was some conversation recently about when the Trolley portion of the museum at Scranton would open.
Jan issue of Rail Pace says "The Electric City Trolley Museum opened Oct 30, 1999 ... Steamtown in Scranton, PA" It goes on to further comment that they haven't finished running O/H wire south on the line that they'll do trips on, but now you can get inside and see their collection. Maybe this season they'll do short trips on the line.
BTW, the steam collection is extensive & the 13 mile ride (each way) to Moscow is very nice ... did it last year.
Mr t__:^)
On a post listed here, someone mentioned that subway service would be rerouteds to the opposite side of the Manhattan bridge by the fall of 2000. However, I know they would have to stop at the Canal Street Express Stop. Is that station ready yet? I was there at least a month or so ago, and it still looks bad on the south side(still smells too).Can they finish the work on the platform before the Fall 2000 deadline, or will the have to wait until the station is ready?
since the M-4's were giving SEPTA problems, they will have to take each and every one of them off the line for defects. since they scrapped all of their older models they will not be able to put them back into service. they shouldn't have scrapped them so quickly they wouldn't have trouble with what is happening to them now. but how are they going to compensate for the missing trains? I say they use shuttle bus service until they fix the problems on the M-4's. Imagine them borrowing the R-32's from NYCTA to cover for their train service.i guess that will only happen if their trains have more that two defects.
R-32S won't fit on MFSE - they would have to use REDBIRDS!
The Redbirds are 4 inches narrower(8'9") than the M-4's(9'1") and would have to be regauged to 5' 2-1/4" from the standard 4' 8.5".
True, but that is still easier than squeezing in a 10' R-32!
The El will be running short service soon enough anyway when the Market El rebuild begins in the summer.
When I was in Philadelphia last month there were still over 30 Almond Joy cars in the Frankford yard - maybe closer to 50, I couldn't be sure. So they're not all gone yet.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
AS OF SATURDAY FEB19 1 TRAINSET OF ALMONDJOYS SITTING IN FRANKFORD YARD. ANYBODY OVER 69TH ST LATELY? SEPTA SHOULD BUY SOME OLD R26, R28, R29, R33 OR R36S FROM NEWYORK. PHILLY WOULD GLADLY WECOME THEM WITH OPEN ARMS!!!
Are there any other Market Frankford gauge transit lines in the USA?
Not Subway/Elevated. Only streetcar/lrv in Philadelphia and New Orleans
I thought Pittsburg was also broad gauge?
No, everyone else is standard. But I didn't know about N'awlins.
Pittsburgh is wide gauge is wider than the standard wide gauge used on SEPTA (Market-Frankfurter) and BART. It's called the Pittsburgh gauge.
Frankfurter?
I've seen Frankfurt, Franklin and Frankfort.
I'm sure you meant that humorously.
Naurally I go and ruin the joke.
You must a sense of humor.
Phila trolleys and the El operate at 5' 2 1/4" gauge. Pittsburgh's is the Pennsylvania trolley gauge (5' 2 1/2"). I believe New Orleans is the same as Pittsburgh. BART is much wider, 5' 6".
The Big EASY is 5'2 1/4" guage. Part of the NO system was built with Philadelphia capital (possibly Widner-Elkins, but I'm not sure) and made to Philadelphia gauge. The St. Charles line was orginally standard gauge and was converted in the late teens, early 20's for conformity.
Pittsburgh (don't forget the "h" - you do and it makes them mad) is 1/4" wider @ 5' 2 1/2". Red Arrow was apparently built to 5 2 1/2" gauge.
Baltimore has the widest streetcar gauge (and it lives at BSM) in the world. It's 5' 4 1/2"!!!
According to Louis C. Hennicks authoritative book, "The Streetcars Of New Orleans" they use a 5' 2 1/2" gauge. By the way, the 1 1/4 mile long Riverfront Line is connected to the 6 1/2 mile long St Charles line by a 1/4 mile connecting track in the "neutral ground" or median of Canal Street. Recently I seen revenue streetcar service up Canal Street on the weekends. They are using a leased streetcar from the Czech Republic. It is brand new and is designed for the European system of having a ticket before you board and having roving inspectors check. For the USA they put a farebox at the center door and the motorman gets out of the cab and goes to the center of the car to collect the fares! Not exactly a rapid loading system. Although the line is thru routed with the riverfront line it does not draw many riders since it is so short. The city of New Orleans has been trying to get money from the Feds and the state to extend the line a few miles up Canal street but they have not been successful. It is a 48 foot car with tapered ends that contain the operators cab, not much room for a fare box. This short and narrow car was obviously designed to negotiate the narrow streets and sharp curves of Europes older cities.
SEPTA has finally put in new flourescent lights at the City Hall BSS station ending years of dimness.
Rode over the Manhattan Bridge recently. The transit work appears to be done. All that is going on is painting, but that is going very, very slowly. The worksite is completely enclosed, with vacuumes sucking everything out of the air. The few exposed painted areas have grafitti on them, but I assume it will be easy to repaint -- the removal of the lead paint is the hard part.
Question: have all the structural repairs been made to the A and B tracks? Assuming no further cracks (I wouldn't), is painting all that is left, or will the east side of the bridge have to be rebuilt?
All I want to hear is when the damn south side of the bridge will be open for business and when the Sea Beach is goingto be able to traverse the bridge. Frankly I've grown a little weary of all the waiting and stalling.
NYCTA Route SS Bowling Green Shuttle was discontinued on February 13,1977, 23 years ago. The last train left South Ferry at 12:10AM and consisted of two cars, R-12's 5704 and 5705. No substitute service was provided. It has been said that it is only a five block walk from South Ferry to Bowling Green and therefore no a major inconvience. It is if you come frome or are going to Staten Island and have to connect to a bus or the SIRT on that end and a subway on the other. It is no fun in inclement weather. Yes you can take the Broadway BMT or the Seventh Avenue IRT to South Ferry. Both of these routes serve the west side. What if you go to the east side. The Bowling Green Shuttle while not usually packed to the doors did carry a respectable crowd during the rush hours and always had a good load when the ferryboats came in. Staten Island Ferry ridership is up by the way from 1977 even though the frequency is down. The big Barberi Class boats are licensed for 6000 passengers and the Kennedy Class for 3500.
The shuttle was discontinued at a time when the city was undergoing a severe financial crisis. The Jamaica El was cutback from 168 Street later that same year. I suppose that doing away with the shortest route on the system,its four dedicated cars and the very expensive salaries of a motorman and a conductor rescued New York City from the brink of bankruptcy.
Larry,RedbirdR33
AMEN. If 5 blocks is bad the 2 station should be closed....81 Street CPW....66 Street...The bowling green shuttle is just as important even though it is a five block walk. So is 81st street from 86 Street and 66 Street to 72 Street.
Bring the shuttle back!
It's not wise to make the east side IRT even more accessable to more people. The N/R and 1/9 lines are adequate enough to get you around Manhattan. If you need the Eas side, then transfer elsewhere.
Why not? God forbid someone should ride on it
I too think they should bring the South Ferry shuttle back. Problem is - they'd have to modify some cars to run on it - i.e. only one set of doors. Would they choose to modify an R62/62A or keep a handful of Redbirds to use on it?
Wayne
02/21/2000
Sorry Wayne, they shouldn't bring back that shuttle. Read my post if you haven't. Even with OPTO, it isn't cost effective to bring back a long closed shuttle line when for years, riding habits have adjusted to this closed line. The Bowling Green shuttle isn't the 42nd St shuttle. Reviving a two car shuttle would cost more than the foot steps it would save.
Bill Newkirk
Bill: I am sorry to say that I cannot agree with you. Just look at what happened to the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. For years it was allowd to deterioate and it became a haven for fare cheaters,thieves and other low lifes. Honest and respectable deserted it in droves and only those who had absolutely no other choice rode it. Now that it has been rebuilt into a clean modern rapid transit line I have seen a very definite upswing in ridership. School groups are even taking classes of kids to ride on it for the experience of a subway ride. Putting a two car train back on the Bowling Green Shuttle and cleaning up the platform would cost a lot less then the Franklin Shuttle did.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Only community pressure saved the Franklin shuttle. No such pressure exists to revive the SF shuttle. And the Franklin shuttle rebuild was IMO a total waste of money. It's nice, but that $70 million could've been used elsewhere.
[Bill: I am sorry to say that I cannot agree with you (about not reopening the Bowling Green shuttle). Just look at what happened to the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. For years it was allowd to deterioate and it became a haven for fare cheaters,thieves and other low lifes. Honest and respectable deserted it in droves and only those who had absolutely no other choice rode it. Now that it has been rebuilt into a clean modern rapid transit line I have seen a very definite upswing in ridership. School groups are even taking classes of kids to ride on it for the experience of a subway ride. Putting a two car train back on the Bowling Green Shuttle and cleaning up the platform would cost a lot less then the Franklin Shuttle did.]
You can hardly compare the two shuttles. The Franklin Avenue Shuttle is the only line within normal walking distance of some neighborhoods and provides helpful transfers. All that the Bowling Green Shuttle would accomplish is to save a walk that's probably shorter than taking the train.
OK how about this as a compromise:
Rudy doesn't want a transit museum annex at the City Hall station, so put it on the inner loop of the South Ferry shuttle, and on weekends, take two of the museum Low V cars, fix them up and use them on the shuttle route -- charging an extra admission at either the BG or SF stations.
They won't interfere with weekend Dyre Ave. loop service around SF, since it's below weekday service levels and the trains can hold at BG when a southbound 5 arrives there; we know the Low Vs can be adjusted so only the center doors open; it would give people a chance to ride the museum trains who might not normally go as far as paying the price or spending the time to go on a rail fantrip and it would also put at least part of the transit museum in an area heavily frequented by tourists would wouldn't have a clue how to get to Court Street under normal circumstances.
Admittedly, the inner loop at SF has none of the charm of the City Hall loop (very little charm at all, in fact), but it's just a thought on how to use the shuttle track without making it a full-time drain on the MTA's coffers.
Actually I like that idea. You could have an extra fare control system for an antique train ride at both Bowling Green and S.Ferry since they both have their own platforms. And the low V's are already compatible with the S Ferry platform as it used it for almost 40 years. It would be sort of like a Straussburg Railroad right in Manhattan!!!
Yeah but the Franklyn Shuttle is more than a few blocks long. The Bowling Green Shuttle is less than a quarter mile. That's for an entire line!!! (Although I must say I enjoyed that line when it was running) And also, the Franklyn Shuttle renovation was a huge waste of money also for such a short line.
I totally agree. $70 million for a line that carries at most 9,000-10,000 people daily is a waste.
Unless each block is a very short block the walk from Bowling Green to the ferry is much less than 5 blocks. Also if I recall correctly you had to use a crossover to change for the shuttle. I used to use the shuttle and I lamented the closing until I actually walked it. You really can't compare it to other close stations such as 81st & 86th on CPW because they were only 2 stations on a longer line. The shuttle's entire line was a very sort distance. By the way, I would like to see it come back and I think the TA has kept a door open to it by renovating the platform at Bowling Green.
Maybe if the TA could use one person operation it would be economically feasible to bring back the Bowling Green shuttle.
The question is not so much bringing back the shuttle but having mainline trains use the inner loop station. This was not a problem until the TA re-engineered the door circuitry following the R17's.
Designing cars that cannot be operated throughout the system appears to be a design priority. One can understand the history that led to the difference between car widths and lengths between El and Subway cars. However, we now have 3 different fleets and lines instead of two, thanks to 75 foot cars. When they remove block signals from the 14th St line as part of the CBTC improvement - that will make 4 separate, incompatible systems.
Incompatibility, the everyday reality of the digital age.
Are you saying that it is going to become a large scale Boston System?
Five blocks?! It's a short walk across Battery Park. I'd be surprised if it's a three-block walk. It's certainly shorter than the passageway between Times Square and the IND.
If there were a transfer to the 1/9, I could see the utility of the shuttle. But there isn't (and wasn't), so I don't.
Five blocks?! It's a short walk across Battery Park. I'd be surprised if it's a three-block walk. It's certainly shorter than the passageway between Times Square and the IND.
Surprise!!! The distance between South Ferry and Bowling Green is 0.23 miles; the distance between 7th and 8th Aves at 0.17 miles.
Still, it's too short a distance to justify bringing the shuttle back. Modifying cars and rerouting #5 trains for what's basically a short stroll is fiscally irresponsible.
...it's too short a distance...
What is the distance criterion?
[[...it's too short a distance...]
[What is the distance criterion?]
I'd consider whether it takes longer to ride the train, when you factor in average waiting times, as opposed to walking. I strongly suspect that most people walked between Bowling Green and South Ferry in less time than they'd spend waiting for and on the shuttle.
Depends on who is walking and what the weather conditions are. I prefer to wait for a numerical criterion.
OK, try this: Is it worth spending millions of dollars refitting subway cars to only open their center doors, rehabbing the inner loop station (which has been derilect for 25 years and was in crappy condition when it was last used anyway) and reorganizing the entire Brooklyn IRT (the 5 can't end at Bowling Green if the shuttle uses the loop) just so people can avoid a 0.23 mile walk? Even those who can't/won't walk from the ferry to Bowling Green have the option of using the 1, 9 N and R trains. If you need the East Side IRT, take the N or R to Canal St. or Union Sq. and transfer.
It would be nice if the MTA created the world's first "weather releated" shuttle service. Run it only when either the rain is blowing in too hard off the bay, or when the wind's blowing in and the temperature is below about 30 degrees.
I'm sure they'll make the service change at the same time they announce the new Second Ave. line routings.
That would still require millions of dollars to implement. Not a wise thing to do, IMHO
I assume that NYCT will see the wisdom of using the inner loop station after the MTA moves into its new headquarters at 2 Broadway :-)
NYCT has an opportunity to get subway cars to be able to use the inner without retrofitting the existing subway fleet. All they have to do is put this specification into the R143's before accepting delivery. After all, the same agency that went out of its way to eliminate the center door only feature should be able to figure out how to put it back.
Now, what was that criterion regarding the distance between stations?
Well that's all true, but in reality, to reintroduce the shuttle, subway cars would have to be modified. And that station would have to be rehabbed. Is it worth the money? I don't think so. 1 and 9 service does an adequate job of serving the South Ferry station.
02/21/2000
Let's face it, the Bowling Green shuttle will return after they build a new Dean Street station on the Franklin Ave shuttle. It doesn't pay since it doesn't make sense. Has anybody though of reconfiguring the fare controls and new Metrocard turnstiles installed in already tight area? Is there a bus that goes near Bowling Green from South Ferry? With Metrocard transfers, that point could also be brought up.
Bill Newkirk
The M1 and M6 run between Bowling Green and South Ferry.
It's presumed that the reconstruction of the Whitehall terminal will include another exit from the SF platform and an enlarged fare control area. What is definately in the plan is an enclosed walkway from the terminal to the Whitehall St station.
-Hank
Well, if they're going to put that in the R143s, then they'll also need to budget for a complete reconstruction of the IRT to B division standards. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know this sounds impossible, but why not convert all IRT lines to B division standards? If done, the Lexington Ave line could have it's capacity increased by 10-15% without the construction of any new East side line. Yes, it would cause massive confusion during construction and it would neccesitate painful service closures. And yes, it would render the entire R142 fleet useless. But why not plan for it now so that 40 years from now when the R142's need replacement they can be replaced by 60' cars running on newly expanded former IRT lines?
There is some merit in your visionary plan.Start with the IRT in the Bronx close enough to allow the A,B,C, and D . How about the A to 242nd St via 207th st connection , cutting back service of the 1 & 9 at 207? Consider the D to241st St via Metro North ROW at Williams Bridge to connect at 225th? Maybe the B connecting to the Woodlawn at about 161st St. Of course you would all across platform xfers at these stations, wouldn't you?
I'm not sure anyone in this thread has any idea of what would be required to "reconstruct the A division to B division standards". Literally EVERYTHING (signals, platforms, columns in the subway, track girders on the elevated) would have to be moved. There are curves and turnouts on the A division that could not be negotiated by B division stock. You might as well build an entirely new railroad (it might actually be cheaper that way).
Yes, it would have been a good idea to build the whole subway to one set of clearances. Yes, there are some A division tunnels (not many -- some of the Dual Contracts work) that were originally constructed to B division clearances. But the idea of rebuilding everything is just unreasonable. Now, you COULD rebuild the Dyre Line to B Division clearances (and it was proposed, more than 30 years ago, as part of the Second Avenue Subway project), but that's because the Dyre Line, as part of the NYW&B, was built to those clearances originally.
Dream on.
All that would need to be done on the Dyre Ave. line is shave back the platforms. The line itself is more or less straight.
Does anyone following this thread have a definitive answer to this question -- could the Pelham Line be converted to B division standards with just a platform shave? It is a dual contracts line. Wasn't it planned as part of the Triboro system also?
Yes, I believe the same can be done for Jerome Avenue. Basically, anything that's not the Steinway Tunnel or the original IRT, although something like the 138-149 curve on the 5 might be a problem.
I don't believe the WPR line was a Tri-boro line (like Jerome Ave and Pelham were), but it is built to the same standards as those 2 other lines. The Second System IND plan has a proposal to convert it to IND specs for connection to the Second Ave/Boston Rd. line.
I have also thought about this. My understanding is that the dual contract lines could be converted to B division status. I'm sure about the Lexington Avenue line and Lexington Avenue tunnels, and pretty sure about the Pelham Line. So you could extend the Lexington Line down Lexington Avenue as a B division service.
But you'd still be stuck with the Steinway tubes, leaving the #7 IRT. And the IRT Broadway line, and the tunnel the #2 uses. That's a lot of value to abandon. And a smaller IRT would be even more difficult to buy cars for.
If we are to assume the 2nd Avenue subway will not be built, here are some other alternatives to consider.
1) Metro North to Penn Station -- easy for Hudson and New Haven Lines, hard for Harlem Line. Combine this with a financial incentive for those transferring to the subway to go to Penn Station and not to Grand Central.
2) Metro North service on Park Avenue, with capacity provided by the diversion of Metro North trains to Penn.
3) Use the East River as a "subway." Turn the shuttle into an automated, short headway people move extened to a ferry terminal on the East River, and put ferry stops along the East Side. Those who could afford it could take small, private water taxis to the shuttle, and then take the shuttle inland to Midtown, or take the water taxis all the way Downtown.
4) Put a shuttle platform over the 6th Ave line, so more subway riders could get to Midtown on the west side, then get across to the East Side.
5) Extend platform lengths at express stations, to allow 600 foot long trains on the Lex.
I'm sure with some work both mainline IRT lines can be converted to B division standards, even if they're only able to operate the 60' cars. The Flushing line would have to remain IRT width, but there are plenty of cars to accomodate this.
The main reason I proposed this was to increase the capacity of both IRT mainlines, especially on the East side, where the wider and longer trains would ease the congestion a bit. I'd still keep them as numbered lines and would attempt to integrate them into the rest of the B division.
Check that, I meant I would NOT want to integrate the new expanded A division lines into the rest of the system.
With the steinway tunnel and the turns west of Q B P where else does the Flushing line restrict 60 ft car use?
I'm sure with some work both mainline IRT lines can
be converted to B division standards, even if
they're only able to operate the 60' cars. The
Flushing line would have to remain IRT width, but
there are plenty of cars to accomodate this.
The main reason I proposed this was to increase the
capacity of both IRT mainlines, especially on the
East side, where the wider and longer trains would
ease the congestion a bit. I'd still keep them as
numbered lines and would attempt to integrate them
into the rest of the B division.
[If we are to assume the 2nd Avenue subway will not be built, here are some other alternatives to consider.
[1) Metro North to Penn Station -- easy for Hudson and New Haven Lines, hard for Harlem Line. Combine this with a financial
incentive for those transferring to the subway to go to Penn Station and not to Grand Central.]
Rerouting more than a trivial number of Metro North trains to Penn Station would require increasing Penn Station's rush-hour capacity. That's not by any means impossible as Penn is *not* at absolute maximum capacity. But some work would be required, IIRC especially with respect to signalling and platform stairways, and of course Amtrak and NJTransit will have to get involved. Your idea does make sense and hopefully we'll see it before too long.
[2) Metro North service on Park Avenue, with capacity provided by the diversion of Metro North trains to Penn.]
Dunno about this one. There are old stations at 59th, 72nd and 86th Streets, although the platforms, especially that the last two, are too short for regular use. You'd have to get the big shots who live along upper Park Avenue to accept some construction and increased foot traffic. While Metro North service would take some pressure off the Lex, it wouldn't do much for the people who live on the far east side. who are distance from subway service.
I am not a major contributor to this board and haven't followed all of the messages about the Second Avenue Subway. But, why does rapid transit service on Second Avenue have to be in a subway? Why not an elevated? Not the steel testle design that was demolished around 1942 but a modern aerial version. If they can thread a modern el through the high-density streets of Bangkok, why can't it be done in New York?
NIMBY.....
NIMBY.....
or
NIFOMT
Not In Front Of My Terrace
Your're probably right. But, if NIMBY, etc. had prevailed a century ago, transit would still consist of only omnibuses. NYC would have topped out with a population of 500,000, all crammed together in lower Manhattan.
At this time, and with Manhattan real estate prices the way they are, you'd have building owners also opposing the plan. Even where you already have a two track elevated line in place, like the old NY Central tracks west of 10th Ave. between 12th and 30th Sts., converting that to el use by either the 7 or L line would create a NIMBY battle royale.
In addition, the MTA would have to buy land and close off at least one cross street if you wanted to make it a B Division el and ramp a track down to the 63rd St. connection, and you'd have to either ramp the line down in Sara Delnano Roosevelt Park south of Houston St. to get to the Nassau St. line or hook it in somehow to the AB tracks on the Manny B to provide direct service to Brooklyn and not leave it as just a stand-alone el line between South Ferry and 125th St. in Manhattan.
An el on Second Ave. built to IRT standards would actually be more useful, if you went back to the old pre-1940 configuration with a line across the Queensboro to Flushing. That would at least give No. 7 passengers a direct link to Wall Street, though again, once you got downtown the MTA would either have to buy very costly land to ramp down to the Brooklyn tunnels or just end the line at South Ferry.
The disadvantages that you pointed out would be more than offset by the capital cost savings in constructing an el instead of a subway.
Aside from the few sections of the Second Avenue Subway that were constructed in the 1960's, this line has been on the drawing boards for at least 50 years. In fact, I have a film called "Rapid Transit" which shows a proposed alignment of the Second Avenue Subway that was prepared after World War II.
Seems as though the fate of a well-designed el couldn't be much worse.
Some of the track constraints at Penn Station could be handled by having new trains run-through rather than terminate there. Some of the existing NJT Northeast Corridor and Midtown Direct service could continue over the Hell Gate Bridge and into the Metro-North New Haven line. Some trains could be through routed between the Hudson Line and the LIRR, although this would require equipment that could operate from both kinds of third rail.
There might be a possibility for more Metro-North service along Park Avenue, although fares within the city limits would have to be much lower (in the $1.50 to $3.00 one-way range) to make the service useful. New stations could be at 98th Street (to serve Mt. Sinai Hospital) and 59th Street to avoid disturbing residential areas on Park Ave.
[I know this sounds impossible, but why not convert all IRT lines to B division standards? If done, the Lexington Ave line could have it's capacity increased by 10-15% without the construction of any new East side line. Yes, it would cause massive confusion during construction and it would neccesitate painful service closures. And yes, it would render the entire R142 fleet useless. But why not plan for it now so that 40 years from now when the R142's need replacement they can be replaced by 60' cars running on newly expanded former IRT lines?]
Some parts of the IRT could be converted without too much trouble. For instance, the Lexington line north of 42nd Street, including the extensions in the Bronx, could accommodate B division cars if the platform edges were removed and some signals relocated. The same may be true of the Seventh Avenue line south of 42nd and the IRT lines in Brooklyn. But the original, 1904 IRT routes are different; as far as I know, they would need to be completely rebuilt to handle the larger cars. Much the same may be true of the Steinway tunnels on the 7 line.
So, completely rebuild them. Yes, it would be disruptive. But in the long run it would serve the city better.
[So, completely rebuild them.]
Let me be facetious for a minute....
Sure. Let's just shut down one or two whole lines, rip out columns (which are holding up streets), knock down walls into peoples' basements, and rebuild from scratch.
Since this was, obviously, VERY thoroughly thought out, I must seek answers to the following:
1. EXACTLY how much will this project cost? (Include all construction, permit fees, environmental impact statements, legal fees, and acquisition of some of the planet's most expensive real estate. Also include sufficient allowances for cost overruns, incentives for early completion, and liability settlements resulting from overcrowding on other lines.)
2. What funding mechanism would be created to cover the costs identified above? (The word "surplus" must NOT be used.)
3. How would passengers be carried during construction? (Diverting buses from their regular routes is NOT an option.)
4. What is the time frame for this project?
5. What specific contingencies have been allowed for? How will they be dealt with?
The upshot is that a HUGE amount of thought must go into a concept of such a magnitude. While coming up with ideas that "would be nice" is always fun (especially for railfans), it pays to figure out just what problems are generated by a proposed "solution" and then try to solve those problems in advance.
6. How do you sell this to the average joe on the street who hasn't even noticed the difference between Divisions A and B?
Do the advantages outweigh the costs?
You can tell them that their subways will be less crowded due to the increased capacity. No new subway lines are getting built. The 2nd Ave. line remains a dream. Something must be done on the East Side. It's not that big a deal to make them usable for B division trains. Major headaches for a couple of years, but in the end, it's worth it.
I'm afraid that making the tunnels wider and taller would require MASSIVE reconstruction. You'd have to move the outer walls and all supporting pillars inside them, then move the center pillars, then move the tracks. You'd probably have to shut the thing down while you did the work. It probably would be cheaper to start from scratch. At least the Lexington Ave could be running while the 2nd Avenue was built.
Another factor we are overlooking is the cost of new subway cars. It means scrapping every IRT car-- even the new R142/142A cars and buying new cars. Also to be considered is the ripple effect of a 100% new fleet- that means 100% replacement down the road.
Earlier in this thread someone suggested changing B division to A division . To do that would require extensions to the platforms or cars to reduce the gap.
except for relatively isolated lines (such as Dyre) we are stuck with Belmont's decision to ban freight from "his subway" by making the tunnels narrower.
Even Philly has two different sets of rail stock- not usable on the other, even to the point of different third rail arrangement!
Of course, there are two different track gauges used in Philadelphia. At least New York's subway system is all standard gauge. Quite frankly, attempting to convert the IRT to B division standards may be more trouble than it's worth, IMHO.
Acutally, I think a better idea would be to convert the B Division to A specs, buy more cars to make up the capacity diffrerence, and use the extra tunnel space to run high speed fiber optic data lines around the city, and charge the phone companies, ISP providers and other uses for the right to have access to the tunnels. Then use the money from the new duct space fees to help finance the Second Ave. subway.
All they need to do is turn the key to 'cutout' Was done on the SIR all the time (well, actually, they just flipped the breakers on the 4 door motors they didn't use) before the platforms were extended.
-Hank
I remember they did this to the doors on the R46's assigned to the JFK express. Only one set of doors opened on one car, where the fare collector was located to take (or rip you off) of that ridiculous $5.50
Send the 57St Phantom to the PATH terminal and have her steal some of their older 2-door cars , paint the letter S on the front, and
VIOLA! problem solved.
Chris: It would not be necessary to spend millions to enable the entire IRT fleet to platform at the inner loop at South Ferry. Four cars would do nicely for the shuttle. You could still continue to turn the #5 at Bowling Green but why we don't send it out to Brooklyn is beyond me. You can platform and change ends even when trains are on a two to three minute headway. They do it every day at Times Square on the #7. Too much of the MTA philosophy over the past 30 years has been that "less is more." They cut out the Third Avenue El and tell us that it will be good for the economy of Third Avenue. I lived in the Bronx at that times and after the El was torn down it only got worse. Same thing at Jamaica. There is and has been an anti-rail bias at the TA since the late 50's. We don't need express service. Run everything local despite the fact that the locals are so crowded you can't get on them. "Its late at night,people won't mind the extra time." Try riding late at night with all the General Orders and Construction. Cleaning people,police, hospital workers and many others do and they do mind especially when they have to change trains and wait twenty minutes for a connection.
Structurally we have a great transit system with many good people running it. You would be surprised what headways our trains could run at the the services that could be provided. Just give the towermen and dispatchers a chance to show what they can do. In the 60s most Manhattan mainlines had two to three minute headways on each track. In the mid 70's this was cut to about 4 minutes or nearly a 50 percent reduction in service. Only now are we starting to get back to more frequent service and lo and behold we're short about 35 ten car trains.
The subways have been and will be the backbone of this city. They need to be utilized to the fullest for the entire population.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS From May 1976 to Feb 1977 #5 trains terminated midday at Bowling Green and used the inner loop. This was done while the Bowling Green Shuttle was still running.
For three decades, the MTA's job has been to figure out how to keep some kind of system running with falling ridership, rising wages, deteriorating infrastructure, and hard to get services. In short, the management challenge was planned shrinkage, and managed decline.
The MTA has been stunned by what has happened. Aren't you? It's just not used to thinking about aggressively improving service to attract market share.
It must be close to a decade ago that me and my boss went up to meet some folks in MTA Planning about their forecast. Their plan was to forecast jobs (little or no growth), and from jobs forecast population, and from population forecast ridership. I said they should do the opposite. Forecast the quality of mass transit and other infrastructure bearing on the quality of life, and from that forecast how many people want to be here, and from that forecast employment. They didn't get it -- all transport models suggest otherwise.
- Surprise!!! The distance between South Ferry and Bowling Green is - 0.23 miles; the distance between 7th and 8th Aves at 0.17
- miles.
And you figured this out how?
Delorme Topo/USA; it has a route measuring tool.
No need to haggle over this. The difference between the distance between SF and BG is only about 32 feet more than the distance between 7th and 8th Ave in the TS station. Will the TA install tracks and shuttle people between the ACE and NR/1239 lines? I think not ...
However, they should install a moving walkway (actually, 2) between those two points.
"Will the TA install tracks and shuttle people between the ACE and NR/1239 lines? I think not ..."
The difference is is that at Bowling Green-S.Ferry the track and stations are already there.
I can walk a quarter-mile faster than the wait time for any train in the system any time but rush hours, and excluding the Flushing line. It takes just as long to walk as it does to go down the stairs, up the stairs, onto the train, off the train, and then through the herd at SF, which is already full because it's much too small.
-Hank
But the station at SF is useless as is and would need to be improved big time if ever opened up to service again.
Conservatives don't understand few things. First, they need to know that we are living in modern times. Their ideas are mainly on abortion and other stuff like that. Technology doesn't seem to be their strong point either. Maybe we should return to typewriters.
Some of the canadiates are not bad but they should be more modern.
What are some other conservative ideas?
Reps. stand for racism, and right wing ideas. They are anti-social, anti-minority.
Conservatives don't understand few things. First, they need to know that we are living in modern times. Their ideas are mainly on abortion and other stuff like that. Technology doesn't seem to be their strong point either. Maybe we should return to typewriters.
Some of the canadiates are not bad but they should be more modern.
What are some other conservative ideas?
Reps. stand for racism, and right wing ideas. They are anti-social, anti-minority. Only whites vote for Reps.
THEY HATE PUBLIC TRANSIT ALL SOCIAL PROGRAMS HATE HOMELESS ETC.......
CUT OFF FOOD STAMPS AND OTHER PUBLIC SOCIAL SERVICES
FINALLY THE NEW YORK SUBWAY WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN BUILT BY CONSERVATIVES
REPUBLICANS AND REFORM & LIBERATATIANS < i know i spelled that wrong !!!
> FINALLY THE NEW YORK SUBWAY WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN BUILT BY
> CONSERVATIVES
> REPUBLICANS AND REFORM & LIBERATATIANS < i know i spelled that wrong > !!!
If you know you spelled it wrong, then spell it right (the word is "libertarians")!
The (original) New York Subway was not built by politicians, but rather by the privately-owned Interborough Rapid Transit Company. If it were not for the socialistic grandstanding of Mayor Hylan, who prevented the IRT and BMT from raising their fares in response to increased costs, who knows what might have happened - they might still be privately owned today.
In general, the "liberal" vs. "conservative" spectrum is a badly outdated paradigm. To see where you fit on a more meaningful "two dimensional" political map, take the "World's Smallest Political Quiz" at the Advocates for Self-Government website.
"In general, the "liberal" vs. "conservative" spectrum is a badly outdated paradigm. To see where you fit on a more meaningful "two dimensional" political map, take the "World's Smallest Political Quiz" at the Advocates for Self-Government website."
Went there, took the quiz, was termed a facist right/authoritarian). It's a 10 question quiz. Among the answers that got me the facist label were my support for the draft; my support for drug laws, border controls, foreign aid, and taxation.
This libertarian site is hardly two-dimensional. One dimensional would also be too much of a compliment.
Alan Glick
[Went there, took the quiz, was termed a facist right/authoritarian). It's a 10 question quiz. Among the answers that got me the facist label were my support for the draft; my support for drug laws, border
controls, foreign aid, and taxation.]
Heck, it classified me as left-liberal ... and if you've seen my comments about the Upper West Side and political correctness, you'd know that's totally off base!!!
I think it so classified me because I said that I was opposed to government censorship of the press and Internet, believed that consenting adults should be legally able to do whatever floats their boat, and opposed repeal of the minimum wage.
And I got right-conservative, probably because I do support repeal of the minimum wage, despite my opposition to censorship or government interference with trade and the free market economy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[And I got right-conservative, probably because I do support repeal of the minimum wage, despite my opposition to censorship or government interference with trade and the free market economy.]
I retook the test, leaving my answers the same except for the one on the minimum wage (I now said that I supported repeal). I came out as "moderate" instead of "left-liberal," with quite a change on that diamond-shaped graph.
My conclusion is that the liberatarians who run the site and sponsor the test consider the minimum wage to be a very important issue. I don't know why, as it's only relevant during very specific phases in the economic cycle. When times are good, competitive pressures raise salaries for even burger flipping above the minimum wage. When times are bad, jobs paying even the minimum wage can't be found.
Took the test and came out a MODERATE. Who'd a thunk it?
I changed the answer to one question and that moved me from facist (right authoritarian) to moderate, bypassing conservative completely!?
Alan Glick
I alternated between the three choices of the tax question and it moved me from moderate to libertarian to left-liberal. Looks like this quiz was designed by Microsoft -- we'll have to wait for the service pack to fix the bugs.
I'm of the view that Libertarians take the extreme positions of both the left and right side of the political spectrum. I'm not surprised that their web site and test are wacky in the extreme. Oh well, I hope this doesn't start another thread: "What I dislike about Libertarians (and the rest of Star Fleet Command)"
Alan Glick
THEY HATE PUBLIC TRANSIT ALL SOCIAL PROGRAMS HATE HOMELESS ETC.......
CUT OFF FOOD STAMPS AND OTHER PUBLIC SOCIAL SERVICES
FINALLY THE NEW YORK SUBWAY WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN BUILT BY CONSERVATIVES RIGHT WING
REPUBLICANS AND REFORM & LIBERATATIANS < i know i spelled that wrong !!!
Libertarians.
What century are you living in? No generalization is particularly accurate, but yours are especially off-base.
The "hero" of the Republican party is Abraham Lincoln, who some people say abolished slavery.
Republicans understand the value of technology as an economic tool. And they certainly know how to use the media and the internet to push their ideas.
Republicans are in favor of people working, not leeching off the system. Workfare, not welfare, providing the person is able to - an idea borrowed from the president that Democrats hail as one of their greatest lights, by the way - FDR.
Republicans are not anti-minority. Which is the only major political party to have a non-white candidate in the presidential race again this year?
But enough of this off-topic rambling. Back to subways!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[re alleged racism of the Republican party]
[The "hero" of the Republican party is Abraham Lincoln, who some people say abolished slavery.
Republicans understand the value of technology as an economic tool. And they certainly know how to use the media and the internet to push their ideas.
Republicans are in favor of people working, not leeching off the system. Workfare, not welfare, providing the person is able to - an idea borrowed from the president that Democrats hail as one of
their greatest lights, by the way - FDR.
Republicans are not anti-minority. Which is the only major political party to have a non-white candidate in the presidential race again this year?]
It's often forgotten that most blacks (when they were able to vote) supported the Republicans for at least 50 years after the Civil War. It was the Democratic party that was commonly associated with southern racism. Things started to change with Franklin D. Roosevelt, although Eisenhower had substantial black support. Kennedy and especially Johnson more or less firmed up black support for the Democrats.
would republicans build THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM ?? or tear it down ???
They'd pake it into a private system for the wealthy.
They'd make it into a private system for the wealthy.
You are on the money Peter. As a matter of fact, many blacks supported Kennedy (and switched to the Dems) because they empathized with him and his family since having been the first Catholic who became President, he had to face anti-Catholic/anti-Irish bigotry during his run for the White House.
Doug aka BMTman
[You are on the money Peter. As a matter of fact, many blacks supported Kennedy (and switched to the Dems) because they empathized with him and his family since having been the first Catholic who
became President, he had to face anti-Catholic/anti-Irish bigotry during his run for the White House.]
And Johnson then solidified black support with his sponsorship of the Great Society programs. Meanwhile, the southern redneck vote shifted to the Republican party, which started catering to their interests - and in the process killed off any chance of recovering black support.
i dont think peter is near or on any money !! as i said in my last post firing unionm paid transit workers
replacing them with workfare improves nobody nowhere !!
This has nothing to do with the thread! And nobody is being fired! Workfare is a scam, if they want to get leeches^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hwelfare recipients to work, cut off their benefits and force them to either work, or starve.
Which doctor did your encephalectomy? Tell him to have it reversed, you need it!
i dont think peter is near or on any money !! as i said in my last post firing unionm paid transit workers
replacing them with workfare improves nobody nowhere !!
Salaam, I didn't say that Welfare should be abolished or anything. Certainly within a Capitalist system, having a dog-eat-dog economic structure -- there has to be a "safety net" for people who get downsized (ie, fired) due to the volatile nature of the economy. What I DID agree with Peter on was that Workfare is necessary. Those on Welfare must realize that it is NOT a LIFESTYLE for someone to just sit back and accept government money month-after-month and year-after- year. Welfare eventually breaks down a person's spirit to even seek out work and they end up in a cycle of dependancy.
Workfare isn't without it's problems, one of which is the fact that many Workfare jobs PAY LESS than what some were making on Welfare. It's almost like endensured slavery in it's current state. That's what really has to be addressed: a REAL LIVING WAGE for the Underemployed so they do not become the next homeless statistic.
Doug aka BMTman
I believe that welfare should be eliminated. When a person loses their job, then they get unemployment insurance. There's a whole different debate on how long the benefits should last, how much should they be, or whether or not the insurance should be private. I believe it should.
welfare should not be eliminated FOR THOSE WHO NEED IT !!!!!!!!!
example the DISABLED and those who EMPLOYERS like pigs-of-royal-island refuses to hire !!
persons who are HOMELESS and persons who need food clothing and shelter etc......
LIKE WHAT MAY HAPPEN TO SOME OF YOU ONE DAY AND YOU TOO WILL NEED
WELFARE AND PUBLIC SOCIAL SERVICES and so on !!
privitization gaurantees homelessness starvation poverty etc.....
maybe people who put up posts like yourself will need >> WELFARE<< some day and you will be glad
it is there when you NEED it !!! anyway what if that person became wrongfully disabled and needed
ssi welfare and medicade- medical AND WHAT IF THAT PERSON WAS YOU ?? mr pigs-of-royal-island??
finally the transit workers who are FIRED san francisco this happens and replaced with WELFARE WORKFARE ??
no !! that is wrong and you all know it !!!!!!! ....
For one thing, people who are unable to work because of disability get Social Security Disability Insurance. Not Welfare. Nobody, who is competent for the job being given will not be hired if they are the best applicant, unless the boss wants a costly discrimination suit.
And I will never need welfare, as I would rather die than collect public money.
Privatized Unemployment insurance? interesting. Let's hear more commentary. What would a recession do to the fund? Would the owners come looking for a Government bailout if claims exceeded the amount in the fund? Almost certainly! Eliminate welfare? Not a bad idea, those whose work ethic is lacking need the incentive to work but be that as it may, businesses are the biggest welfare recipients around CUT THEM OUT TOO. And regardless of who called the shots (Visionaries), The construction workers built the subways. Eugenious, get out into the world and see what it is really like, then form opinions based on what you have learned. I was an ACTIVE member of the Republican party until I was 25 years old but the excesses of the Reagan era drove me to liberalism. We'll probably be in the same camp in a few years.
I agree. America can't have it both ways. If they want the individual off Welfare, then the hand-outs to private corporations should be abolished as well (the most famous case being the Chrysler bailout where Lee Iacoca gave HIMSELF a raise while laying off thousands!)
Doug aka BMTman
AND THEN THEY MAKE THE WELFARE CUT-OFF VICTIMS .................( HOMELESS ) ......... !!!!!!!!
[I agree. America can't have it both ways. If they want the individual off Welfare, then the hand-outs to private corporations should be abolished as well (the most famous case being the Chrysler bailout where Lee Iacoca gave HIMSELF a raise while laying off thousands!)]
And consider the way corporations can blackmail NYC into provide huge tax breaks and subsidies merely by threatening to move to Jersey City.
but its the poor defenseless that get cut off welfare food stamps used as workfare slaves and then HOMELESS
homelessness hunger starve to death or freeze to death on the streets and DIE !!!!!!
thats what the conservatives republicans and liberatains ARE ALL ABOUT !!!
If these people refuse to pull their weight, as long as they're perfectly able to do so, they deserve to become permanent residents of Hart Island.
That's pure crap and it's pathetic someone like you is unaware of it. No conservative worth his salt wants anyone to freeze to death or starve. But some of those homeless must try and make an effort to help themselves and they are not doing it. Personal responsibility is a hallmark of us Conservatives and that belief is what made the USA the greatest nation ever created.
Intelligence wasted on deaf ears. Don't confuse him with facts - his mind is made up.
I think I;m going to have to agree with the loud gentleman over in the corner there. Conservitave means do things they way they were done back in "the day". Back in the day unwanted elements of society would freeze or starve to death. Trust me, most conservatives would not care in the slightest if the homeless and bums were all turned into mailboxes. If you did not get that watch more Simpsons.
Of course, I don't care what happens to the homeless. If they are able to but don't pull their weight, they can move to Hart Island and the rest of society would be better off without some bag of garbage going around begging for food.
And those who want to revert to the past are called reactionaries. Even so, your view of conservative and liberal doesn't fly. Persons from both camps believe in progress, it's the way it should be taken that is different. It would make more sense to use the terms left and right.
Doug: As a Republican I totally agree with you. Corporate welfare sucks because they don't need it and they're sponging off the government. Put that money into a tax cut, adding to social security and medicare, and paying off the debt. Good job---for a Demo.
WAIT A MINUTE !! LEAVE THE WELFARE RECIEPENTS ALONE FIRST !!! THEN GO AFTER CORPORATE
WELFARE !!!!
Privatized Unemployment insurance? interesting. Let's hear more commentary. What would a recession do to the fund? Would the owners come looking for a Government bailout if claims exceeded the amount in the fund? Almost certainly!
That's not something I completely thought about, as opposed to welfare cutoff, which I totally believe in.
....businesses are the biggest welfare recipients around CUT THEM OUT TOO
And I agree.
We'll probably be in the same camp in a few years
Perhaps, but people generally become more conservative as they age.
[When a person loses their job, then they get unemployment insurance.]
Yeah, right. Like someone who's laidoff today is going to be able to find work in his field before unemployment insurance runs out. Those days are over for alot of folks (particularly those in white-collar middle management positions). For some 'flipping burgers' may have to suffice before they can get a position in their chosen field. For others it's going on Welfare because they'd rather not be seen in public in what some find as deeming work.
Anyhow, until there comes a time when America can have 100% employment, my argument is that Welfare is necessary for a civil society.
Doug aka BMTman
and then what do you do in the parts of the country where the is no employment !!!
and what do you do with the disabled and unemployable etc....... thank you !!!
I'll disagree. I've been unemployed - ten months of total unemployment and another six of under-employment between my years at IBM and my current employer - so I know what it's like to be without a paycheck and beyond what unemployment insurance pays out. No, I didn't end up on welfare, but I'm still not back to where I was before I was laid off, even after over four years with my current employer. But the welfare system has done little to encourage people to work. Rather, it simply provides people with the opportunity to sit around and watch TV all day, doing nothing - not in the most luxurious surroundings, certainly, but without having to do anything more than stop by the welfare office every once in a while to prove they're still alive. Workfare is the answer. And, for those who are truly unable to work, there are disability payments. Those payments I do support.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
workfare is not the answer for the disabled who must wait on welfare while they appeal thier disability denials !!
many persons dont have family and support from them !!!
the social safety net does not make the truly needy lick back and watch TV all day long and be lazy ....
You are very fortunate what about the less fortunate and unlucky ??? if it were not for food stamps
would i have to steal food ?? i have been there and done that i know !!!!
workfare should not be used to fire UNION PAID TRANSIT WORKERS ETC....and then replace them with
WELFARE RECIEPENTS ETC.......... workfare should be for the truly ABLE BODIED PERSONS ONLY !!
So according to you the problem with unemployment is that it doesn't last long enough. Then it can be extended, especially with the money saved from pulling the leeches off of welfare.
And when America does have 100% employment, then runaway cost-push inflation will kill the beautiful utopia you think will come.
[And when America does have 100% employment, then runaway cost-push
inflation will kill the beautiful utopia you think will come. ]
I don't profess some kind of 'utopia', Mr. Pigs, I was merely being facetious about 100% employment.
Anyhow, I guess you never knew anyone who was out of work for very long.
Doug aka BMTman
I don't want anybody to be out of work for very long. When there is a healthy rate of unemployment, nobody has to be constantly unemployed. It rotates.
but mr pig !!! what happens when you are out of employment thru no fault of your own ??
what if you become disabled ?? then what ?? ssi takes a LONG TIME TO PROCESS !!!
It doesn't matter how one loses their job, they should get a new one. In poor economic conditions, the government should attempt to provide new jobs, or perhaps increase job rotation.
And if S.S.I. takes a long time to process, that would be a flaw that needs to be fixed, that doesn't mean it should be patched up through welfare.
I think the whole welfare issue boils down to: How do we correct people who lack a work ethic. certainly no one with an ounce of common sense wants to simply continue enabling those whose work ethic is damaged. but OTOH, counseling and other psychological treatment may be necessary. Of course, none of this is easy or cheap, but in the long run, it will be worth it. as for the physically disabled, benefit programs and retraining programs should be strengthened. No, there are no simple or inexpensive fixes, but long (10-20 years)term, the payoff will come in a healthier society where a greater percentage of people are productive citizens.
thats what i was trying to tell mr pigs !!!! about people who are unemployed long period of time (s)
some of them disabled waiting for the SLOW PROCESS of SSI to kick in !!!
what leeches ?? not the welfare reciepents !! YOU MEAN CORPORATE WELFARE !! thats where
the real L E E C H E S are !!!!!! ( mr pigs!! )
your anger should be directed at those rich who LEECH off of corporate welfare !!!!
What aboot "Structural" unemployment. This is defined as when your skills are not demanded. What does one do when they are having to "re-tool". Keep in mind that learning new skills can take a very long time and it can be very costly.
Unemployment insurance, and/or an unskilled job while you re-tool.
Although I dislike many of the alternatives that the Democrats have come up with, if a Republican wins the White House this year, YOU CAN KISS AMTRAK GOODBYE!!! and don't tell me anything about the "private sector"-- they'll only run New York - D.C. FOOL eisenhower and his GM bought and paid for cabinet wrecked private sector transportation nationally as surely as the IND did for the subways in NY City.
I'm sick and tired of hearing the tired old "Republicans will kill Amtrak" and "all Republicans hate transit" saw. I vote Republican in every election, and I:
1) ride transit to work every day and when I come into the city on weekends (even though I could drive in on the weekend), and
2) firmly believe that Amtrak and local transit should receive money from the treasury in order to balance the treasury's support of roads and air traffic/airport facilities.
"More Than Half The Nation's Governors Urge President Clinton To Support Full Funding Of Amtrak For Fiscal Year 2001," 26 governors signed the petition, including 11 Republican governors and Jesse Ventura, who isn't Republican, but certainly isn't a liberal Democrat either! http://www.amtrak.com/news/pr/atk_nov17.html
"Amtrak's Illinois State-Supported Trains Start FY2000 Strong." A state that's had Republican governors for a quarter of a century now partially funds intrastate Amtrak routes. I'm fairly sure that there are other states with Republican governors that subsidise the internal Amtrak service. (New York?) http://www.amtrak.com/news/pr/atk_00feb3c.html
Wasn't the previous Amtrak president the Republican governor of Wisconsin, Tommy Thompson?
See "Does Transit Work? A Conservative Reappraisal." http://www.apta.com/info/online/weyrich2new.htm
States with Republican governors and/or legislatures have built or expanded rail transit systems in the last few years. Utah certainly isn't classed as a liberal state, yet Salt Lake City just completed its light rail system. Dallas and Denver are expanding their light rail under the Republican governors of Texas (George W. Bush, who you contend would kill Amtrak) and Colorado, respectively.
John: Nice work. But when you're talking to the Dimos it;s like talking to the wall. I hope they got the message, but I doubt it.
Its the reps. that are like a wall. Afraid of change. Afraid that minorities will take over. They are like a brick wall that can't be broken through, a wall that seperates them from the rest of changing
society.
What change? Harlem is still a slum with rat infested buildings, apartments falling apart and kids going to rotten schools. The latin South Bronx is a disgrace and you left wingers have been in charge of that debacle for as long as I can remember. Get a life, or better yet, do something besides talk to make life better for those unfortunates who have to live in such conditions. George Bush will change that. He means it.
"It's often forgotten that most blacks (when they were able to vote) supported the Republicans for at least 50 years after the Civil War. It was the Democratic party that was commonly associated with southern racism. Things started to change with Franklin D. Roosevelt, although Eisenhower had substantial black support. Kennedy and especially Johnson more or less firmed up black support for the Democrats."
It's also forgotten that it was mainly Democrats who oppossed the civil rights legislation of the 50's and 60's. And their supporters have the gall to say that Republicans are racists. Oh well, if you repeat a lie often enough...
Alan Glick
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
mr anon e mouse WORKFARE is not working !! example FIRING union paid transit workers REPLACING
them with OVERWORKED UNDERPAID welfare reciepents ??
creating more UNEMPLOYED and new WELFARE to cut-off TO HOMELESS-WORKFARE !!!
your """ rambling"" made no sense in any century... As far as a black man is concerned look at that -
IDIOT - FOOL clarence thomas who may look black on the OUTSIDE..... but looks can be decieving !
so the so called BLACK candidate impresses me not !!!!!!
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE THE CONSERVATIVES ( republican liberatarians reform party etc..)
WHAT WORKING PEOPLE DO ANY OF THE ABOVE ARE FOR ( the wealthy rich right?? )
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
or did you have to have a GOOD LIBERAL LIKE F.D.R. ?? HOOVER ?? OR F.D.R. ?????
FDR s construction projects were NATION WIDE the U.S.A. still benefits from !! So much for on topic
rambiling !!! Technology advanced under the DEMOCRATS ( including rail transit construction )
THIS THE CENTURY OF REALITY WE ARE LIVING IN !! look at how the weapons industries (defense)
LEECH off of the system !!! ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???
NOW !!!!!!!! mr mouse........ we can go back to rail systems worldwide !!!!! cool off and take a COLD shower !!
'
Wow!!! 17 copies of the same posting. That's got to be a record!!!
It's one posting. It just appears in the index seventeen times.
Yup. And all the answers are repeated each time too. Dave, what happened? Is this a bug in the software? Or was the system deliberately "hacked" somehow to make the message repeat??
Dan, I've seen this before, with no particular pattern to the posts involved. I suspect that it's a hiccup - timing issue or something like that. Dave can probably elucidate more.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"ABRAHAM LINCOLN wanted to keep the plantation
slavery in !! GEORGE BUSH ( he said) republicans are not anti-minority?? remember ""WILLIE HORTON""???"
Thanks to Lincoln slavery was abolished when it was. Willie Horton was a brutal rapist who should not have been let out of prison when he was. Saying so does not make one a racist. Bush (and me) would have had the same view regarding Horton if he were white.
I hope our differing political views won't prevent you from selling me one of your videos when I scrape the money together.
Alan Glick
Lincoln never considered himself to be an abolitionist compared to the more strident abolitionists of his time. The emancipation proclomation of 1863 covered only the thirteen states of the Confederacey- an area that he had no control over at that time, so the proclomation was somewhat empty. And hypocritical, since it didn't cover three juristictions in the north that still had slavery- Maryland, Deleware and the District of Columbia itself. Slavery continued past the end of the Civil War, past Lincoln's assasination, and didn't end until the adoption of the 13th Amendment later in 1864.
What this has to do with the 2000 Senate race, however, or the New York subway system, I'm not sure.
The Emancipation Proclamation only covered those lands that the Union would occupy in the south, in the future, currently occupied lands were exempt.
The District of Columbia lost slavery in the 1850 Compromise to allow California into the Union.
First of all, no transit worker has been fired and replaced by a WEP worker.
Second of all, YOU OF ALL PEOPLE. based on some of your past posts, should not be calling anyone an idiot or a fool.
Finally, as long as the Democrats embrace double standards and promote policies that say that certain minorities cannot compete on level ground with the caucasion majority, as long as they permit the racism of the minority groups, as long as the criminal justice system is prostituted by the Democratic justice Department and its madam, Clinton appointee Janet Reno, then I'm proud to be counted as a Republican.
Mass transit has flourished under the NY Republican administration, even in the face of reduced federal subsidies under your beloved democrats. Finally, how can anyone proudly proclaim that they are democrats when that party is so cynical and contemptuous of the electorate that they would even think of running a malevolent carpetbagger like lady hillary ?
It really should be pointed out that the first person to bring up Willie Horton during the 1988 presidential campaign was... Al Gore. Are you suggesting that Mr. Gore is a racist?
but it was GEORGE HURBERT WALKER BUSH who ran with the WILLIE HORTON racist football !!
he used it in his run to the white house anf thats a true fact !!! conservatives ?? ugh?
would the NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM had been built with CONSERVATIVES... in charge of the store ??
I'm a bit confused here about the Willie Horton issue. My memory is a little vague. Was anything said regarding Willie Horton that was untrue? How did it make George Bush a racist?
It didn't. It's been used as a weapon against Republicans because the ad was so effective. In their minds, that effectivness must've been due to the inherant racism in all Americans, and not because it truly showed the folly of paroling violent felons.
That's what I thought. So, to sum it up, if I am against paroling violent felons, then, according to the democrats, I must be a racist. Well then, if that is the case, if it's a racial issue, that must mean that the democrats assume that all violent felons come from one ethnic group. Well, golly, if the democrats think that all violent criminals come from that group, wouldn't that make the democrats the racists?
I don't know it as fact, but given that the subways were built by the private sector and that most of the leaders in the private sector tend to be conservatives it seems rather likely to me that the subway was indeed built by conservatives.
(Subway built by conservatives)
Those who built the subway expected it to be a middle to upper middle class service, not a middle to lower middle class service. If they knew the future, the conservatives would not have built it.
That's why I think the best way to get the 2nd Avenue subway built is as a separate "Snobway," built and operated by a private consortium, with an express bus fare. After 30 years, there would be a "unification" and the rest of us bums would get to ride it. Otherwise, I am unlikely to see it in my lifetime, and I am only 38.
Actually, I think they still would have built it, but if they knew about the post-WWI inflation, Belmont never would have agreed to the fixed nickel fare. They also would have been a little slicker with Manhattan Elevated Railway purchase -- getting a rail monopoly seemed like a great idea in 1902, but they outsmarted themselves with the 999-year lease and leaving no way to roll over the elevated's bonds to some other financial guarentee when the system became a big financal drain after the dual contract lines were completed.
Perhaps the original IRT builders, but the BRT/BMT and IND lines, along with the later IRT lines were clearly designed to move massive numbers of working class people, which it still does today.
It is called LIRR and Metro North and NJtransit
The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan.
"The LIRR, Metro North, and NJT do not provide service to residential areas of Manhattan."
Reading that message gave me a sudden flash of inspiration. While the LIRR and NJT don't run through residential portions of Manhattan (certainly not where additional stations could be built or would do any good), MetroNorth runs under Park Avenue right through the middle of the Upper East Side. Couldn't a couple or three stations -- say, 103rd, 86th, 68th -- in the Park Avenue tunnels relieve some of the pressure on the 4-5-6 subway routes?
Negatives:
*Does nothing to solve the problem of distance from stations.
*Reducing overcrowding on the Lexington lines could reduce the pressure for a Second Avenue Subway.
*Is there space left on MN trains by the time they leave 125th Street for Grand Central or vice versa? Are there open seats, a few people standing, or crush loads? If the MN trains are already sardine cans, all the East Siders would be doing was trading one cattle car for another, and would have little incentive to switch.
*If the service is very lightly used, the deserted or near-deserted atmosphere of the stations may make them seem dangerous -- whether they are or not -- to potential passengers.
Positives:
*Stations on the Upper East Side only means that existing MN riders would not fear an "incursion" of the "wrong kind of people". (I know, we shouldn't pander to irrational fears, but any reduced ridership due to irrational beliefs would be reduced ridership all the same.)
*Similarly, the MN stops would be a sort of "snobway," attracting those Upper East Siders who don't ride the subway or who ride it but don't like to.
*Adding only two or three stations would slow MN service very little while providing an express-like service to the people boarding on the Upper East Side.
*The service would use existing MN tunnels, tracks, signals, and trains, saving enormously on capital expenditures.
*Assuming there is room for platforms with the existing tunnel and track configuration, adding stations should be RELATIVELY inexpensive: punch through the sidewalk, put in a couple of entrances and prefab staircases, a platform, lighting, a couple of ticket machines, a pay phone, and an emergency call box, and voila! Instant transit station. And if they didn't have to put in elevators, they could also get away with cheaper low-level platforms. (Correct me if I'm wrong about low-level platforms being possible on MN.)
*No need for a station agent unless the traffic warrants.
So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?
[So, does anyone here know if there is room for platforms in the Park Avenue Tunnel? A single center platform or twin side platforms? Would tracks have to be shifted, adding expense? Or are the tunnels so shoehorned with tracks and pillars that there's no room for platforms at all?]
As I noted in another thread, there are abandoned stations at 59th, 72nd, and 86th Streets. They're still in use as emergency exits. 59th, which has side platforms, is the largest of the three, and AFAICT is about two or three carlengths. The other two are much shorter, no more than one carlength if not one door.
The other thing is, the Park Avenue tunnel ends at GCT. Then again, the MTA is studying extending the commuter RRs downtown so their riders can absorb the subway, with one option from Penn and one from GCT. This is something else that will be built before we see any improvements for the city. Many business interests believe making it easier for suburbanites to get downtown would raise property values. Brooklyn's problems do not seem to worry them.
If that's all it does, better to go from Penn. But if stations could be added on the Upper East Side, a run downtown from GCT might make sense (it would have to be four track -- two for the LIRR, two for MetroNorth -- south of GCT). The MN trains would run through on the local tracks next to the platforms. The two inner tracks would run peak direction only and go to/leave from GCT.
All this assumes that the LIRR to GCT and MetroNorth to Penn also happens, to free capacity.
Penn Station is too crowded already. a way to relieve as I posted a few months earlier, is to run Metro North local trains say from Woodlawn on the Harlem Division and make local stops in Bronx. Also isn t there a connection from the Amtrack to GCT in the Bronx, they could also run locals along there, maybe using M2s which are dual modes(3rd rail and Pantographs). That way service will be releaved on the 4 and 6 lines. Just a thought, Also if they do run LIRR into Grand Central, run trains from the BX, over the Hell gate, then 63rd St Term to GCT. Amtrack only uses about 1 train per hour in each direction.
Penn Station wouldn't be so crowded if Amtrak didn't terminate most of its NE Corridor and all of its Empire Corridor trains there. I think the frequency of Amtrak service over the Hell Gate Bridge is less than 1 train per hour in either direction. Why doesn't Amtrak extend more of its NEC trains to Boston and Springfield or even Albany? The NEC and Hartford/Springfield lines north of New York are so underutilized. More people would use Amtrak if it were more convenient.
Penn will get worse before it gets better. After the new Secacuas Transfer station is open there will be more NE Corridor trains added to handle the increased load (a new signal system will also increase the trains per hour from around 19 to around 26).
NJT is building a new waiting area in the SE corner of Penn with added stairways and elevators to the platforms.
Also Amtrak owns Penn Station, and would not mind if LIRR or NJT leave
Right! I dont know if anyone has picked up on this but even NJT's annoucements(made by humans)now state "Amtrak's Pennsylvania Station" rather than "Penn Station New York." Also the announcements on the escalator which were recorded by the same voices heard on NYCT are now a single male voice referring to "Welcome to Amtrak's Pennsylvanis Station...."
Is there any progress being made in transferring Amtrak operations to the Farley Building?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Right now it is still talk. I have seen no activity.
Amtrak is planning on extending more NEC trains north of NYC to Boston/Springfield, but does not currently have enough equipment to do so (without reducing frequencies south of NYC).
They did run trains through Albany-NY-DC several years ago, but it was discontinued. I don't know why.
Considering through-running Amtrak trains require like a minimum of 10 minutes dwell time, plus whatever schedule padding Amtrak wants to throw in, I'm not sure why running trains through NY Penn would be faster than terminating a train there. After all, "terminating" trains don't (or shouldn't) sit at the platform for an hour waiting for a return trip, they should be running through to the yards and waiting there. If anything, a train terminating at NY should occupy the platform for less time, because you only have to let passengers off, rather than also waiting for them to clear the stairs and escalators and for new passengers to come down from the concourse and board. Don't know how much this theory works out in practice though.
With NYP, part of the issue is the capacity of the East River tunnels. Sunnyside Yard isn't exactly next door to Penn Station. Also, terminating trains have their originating counterparts, and these are what take the majority of the platform time. Many of the final checks for departing trains are done by the crew that boards at NYP; especially with the long distance trains, passenger lists must be scanned to identify passengers with special needs and passengers with lots of carry-on luggage must be accomodated. Contrast this with a train that is just stopping to pick up passengers who are already on the platform, with a crew that is already in place and ready for them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hellsgate is a 4 track bridge, 2 -Amtrack and 2 - the former Conrail
now in private hands COX or something like that. NY & Atlantic uses
the old Conrail side as well for freight and hauling rock from the
new water tunnel. I think Rush hour service from MN and dream
expansion lines of the MTA could squeeze in to the ^3rd St tunnel and
break out to GC and everything south that the 63rd St tunnel now
connects to, 6th Ave and B'way .
Well, the Park Avenue Tunnel is four tracks, so building an island platform would require more shifting than you think, it also wouldn't fit with the NY express/local concept. Side platforms here are must.
And another thing, not otherwise mentioned is low platform. Since we are digging anyway, why bother with low platform? And of course, Metronorth's electric coaches do not have low level boarding, just like the same ones on the LIRR, the diesel equipment, which frequently runs using dual mode engines to GC does allow low level boarding, unlike the LIRR. But this isn't enough service to serve these new side stops and the trains are already coming from far afield (diesel territory).
Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.
[Is there a way to shift some MN service to the Westside tunnel of Amtrak all the way to say The Javits center or as far south as possible near a convient xfer point to continue south and east?
Maybe this could free up some track space and time on Park ave.]
Metro North's Hudson line trains indeed could follow this route into Penn Station without any trouble. Harlem and New Haven line trains would have to make complicated reverse moves, probably not feasible with rush hour traffic.
As noted elsewhere, any Metro North extension into Penn, whether via this route or using the Hell Gate Bridge, would require some reworking of Penn Station operations in order to free up track and platform capacity.
Or, with a little bit of work, you could bypass Penn Station and go further downtown on the New York Central freight tracks, which reach 14th Street and used to go even further.
I believe that the subways were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
The correct spelling is Mellon -- BTW, A Mellon descendant, Richard Mellon Scaife was the chief backer of Ken Starr. No, I don't think you can call them liberal.
I believe that the el's, the precursors of the subways. were built first by the Melons & Vanderbilts. Clearly not the liberals of their time....
Err..I think August Belmont was a Republican.
Wasn't Belmont Sr. a Democrat?
Alan Glick
Senior backed Grover Cleveland, but I believe junior and others split with the Democrats in 1896 over William Jennings Bryan and his "Cross of Gold," populist campaign against the trusts and big business interests and for the rural farm interests (golly, things have changed just a ton in 104 years, haven't they?)
liberals built the subway LIKE THE LOS ANGELES PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY.......
then the conservatives like los angeles MAYOR YORTY.... ripped the whole system 100% OUT !!!!!!
question ........... what CONSERVATIVES TODAY would will and have BUILT ANY RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM ??
anywhere ??? the silence is death defying !!!!!!! ( i am open minded if you can prove me wrong !! )
TO ME THE ONLY THING CONSERVATIVES CARE ABOUT IS STAR WARS AND THE WEAPONS INDUSTRIES !
One week after the Northridge quake, the commuter rail system was extended up into the Antalope Valley north of Los Angeles because of the collapse of the I-5, State Highway 14 interchange in which a motorcycle policeman died.
Mayor -- Richard Riordan (Republican)
Governor -- Pete Wilson (Republican)
Policitans play towards their constiuances. The suburbanited around LA needed a way to get into the city, the politicians, in this case Republican, provided them. Same thing as in my earlier post about Tom DeLay down in Houston.
Republicans in general do not get out in front in pushing mass transit issues -- it's not an issue where they're going to try and push their base where there isn't a major urge to go. But if the public demands mass transit, they will respond. They want to keep their jobs.
Has Schumer (D-NY) or any of the city Democrats really fought for transit? Most say that they are in favor of it just like they are in favor of motherhood but what have they actually done recently to insure its expansion. I remember when Cuomo was governor. He was focued on social welfare not transit. Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.
i disagree with every thing you said .....
So what? Why don't you give us a reason?
because we just yell back and fourth and GET KICKED OFF SUBRALK !! ( thats why !! )
ok mr pigs of royal island ???? !!!! back on topic i will cover when i return from NYC march 2000
to re-shoot the A 5 then the L and J etc......
That's still no reason for you not to elaborate on your statements.
[Hillary will probably focus on education and welfare if she is elected. Many liberals see the transit subsidy as taking money away from food stamps, rent subsidies, fuel subsidies, medicaid, etc.]
A Senator Hillary (just the thought makes me shudder) *might* pay at least some attention to transit. That's because she needs to appeal to suburban voters, many of whom use the LIRR and Metro North. She'll probably pay less attention to the subways and buses, as the city voters who are their main users are going to vote for her anyway.
Rudy and the cops
Yep, city people will vote for Hil.
Did any of you catch the sickening display of pandering that went on yesterday at the Dimwitocratic debate between brong Bradley and goofy Gore? They kept telling the African-American audience everything they wanted to hear, promising them the moon. Why do Black buy such crap? If they took a good look around their Harlem they would see things haven't changed for the better since WWII, and their children still go to crappy schools while Bore and Boringer send their kids to private schools. What hyocrisy. So phony I cannot believe people can't see through this smoke and mirrors game. It's too bad my party doesn't get on the stick and do something about this. George W. is out there and I like what he says. I hope he means it. African-Americans deserve a better shake and it is not going to happen if their children
are subjected to a rotten education. And since the Dimos have been in control of the government for most of this period, why haven;t they done anything to change things for the better? Because they don't mean it, they're phonies. I know. I used to be a Democrat.
The Repubs. are a racist bunch. We new yorkers support Demos. People who support the right wing racists reps. are people who live in the suburbs. We had Rudy, now we need a new leader.
RacistReps.
For the first time on this website I'm going to get very personal. You Gore supporter are a first class horse's ass, and if you ever met me and called me a racist it would be the last time you called anyone that. You are a jerk and like that stupid inventor of the Internet you play the race card for all its worth. What have you guys did for Blacks? nothing. Most still live in rat-infested neighborhoods and send their kids to rotten schools. So save me the propaganda garbage.
It's good to see Black conservatives like Ken Hamblin, Armstrong Williams, Clarence Thomas, Walter Williams and others, coming to the fore and exposing all the liberal trash that has kept African-Americans subverient for all these years.
Alan Keyes also.
Yes Mike, definately Alan Keyes, and there is one guy in New York who was on Hannnity and Colmes last night whose name I can;t remember. He is a real winner and smart as a tack.
What has Rudy done? Cut funding for daycare, cut funding for almost all public works. About 400 community garderns were destroyed and made into housing for rich white yuppies. And don't even get me started on cops the NYPD. Cops killed young minority men and get away with it?
Maybe you should go train surfing like those two kids.
Hey, "Left wing" I'm a democrat but Be Nice, Sea Beach and I might have some differing opinions but we shouldn't let political bickering get nasty on Sub Talk. If you like the Democrats, Work for them but don't bring hostility here.
For one thing, your total stupidity makes liberals like you look like fools. For the sake of your political think-alikes, you should shut up.
Hey Fred,
Why waste your time getting angry at trolls? They don't even have enough courage to leave e-mail addresses.
Alan Glick
Right to are Alan, but don't you get tired of us Conservatives being called racists, fascists, thugs, etc?
Get tired? No. I expect people who don't have the ability to engage in rational discussion to sink to name calling and childish attempts to upset others.
Alan Glick
How can you tell when a politician is lying ?
Answer Their lips are moving!
All of you , left,right , dem or rep ,lib or conservitive leaning
citizens must go back to the store and get some salt
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE "" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!!
Most of the rail lines in the L.A. area were ripped out when the state had a Republican governor -- Earl Warren.
We all remember what big buds he and the conservatives were in the 1950s and 60s.
If people in a conservatives reps district want mass transit enough, be it light rail or subway, they will support it, because they can read polls. If the people in a Democratic district don't make mass transit a high priority for themselves, their represenative will not make it a high priority for himself. I think Larry can give you enough examples of Brooklyn politicans to prove that out.
Generally, Democrats do have more of an interest in mass transit, because there are more Democratic voters in the center cities where the rail and bus lines are located. But politics usually comes in shades of gray, and very few issues are purely black and white.
Also -- is there really a corrolation in L.A. between cross-dressing and being against mass transit?
our LOST ANGELES camellion mayor who puts his finger up into the air to see where the wind
is blowing etc...... republicans-demoncrats the same to me !!!
All I can say to you is that you need more fiber and bran in your diet---if you catch my drift.
the mayor of lost angeles dick riordan is a cross dresser and steered off track the MTA
of southern california with big heavy RIGHT WING dissinvestment into METROKINK ( his right wing folks )
and contimuing the RED LINE the subway to and from NOWHERE ( poor folks ) etc............
while deliberately fighting against the LOS ANGELES BUS RIDERS TRANSIT UNION.... ( the poor folks again )
with old unsafe beaten up mta buses neglected by your PEDRO RACIST "" pistol pete wilson ( govonor)
and of cource the " THE SAN FERNANDO WEST LOST ANGELES MAYOR "" dick reordan ( L.A. mayor )
and the insane GREEN LINE THAT REFUSES TO GO TO L.A.X los angeles airport etc.............
REPUBLICANS REFORM PARTIES AND LIBERATARIANS hate transit that benefits poor & working people !!
and LOST ANGELES is a fine example WHAT HAPPENED TO THE PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY
mr j lee.. . THE
"" RIGHT WING "" CONSERVATIVES - RIPPED 100% OUT !!!!!! ..... and that is the truth !!
If this note that I just read isn't a perfect argument for supporting mental health I don't know what is. Like the guy said: "support mental health or I'll kill you."
to j lee METROLINK IS A FAILURE !!! it is for rich white right wingers conservatives types
THE AVERAGE TRANSIT DEPENDANT DID NOT BENEFIT FROM THIS !!!
thats only response to your insistance as to how GREAT the republicans ARE NOT !!
richard riardan ""pistol pete"" wilson ............. SEE YOU EAST COAST SUBTALKERS ON THE ""L"" LINE
THE FIRST WEEK OF MARCH ( heypaul will with his permission POST DATE AND TIMES ON SUBTALK !! )
LOS ANGELES RAIL SYSTEM ( mr willie ) salaamallah .............. RAILFAN WINDOW VIDIEO TAPES !!
SIGNING OUT FOR 3 THREE WEEKS !!!!!!!!!!!!! ,,,,
Whew! That is going to be a relief.
Fred you are trying to shine light into a black hole.
The message just ain't getting through
Maybe we should take up a collection and get Mr. LA Rail a copy of Correct English for Dummies. Just a thought.
under the conservatives WOULD THE NEW YORK SUBWAY SYSTEM BEEN BUILT ???
The people responsible for the subways were men like August Belmont and the many others who came before and were responsible for building the surface and elevated lines in Brooklyn and Manhattan. The subways were built in spite of government, not because of it. We CAN debate whether or not conservatives would continue to subsidize mass transit today. But the question as to whether or not the subways would have built is history. They were profitable and they were promoted and built by private companies seeking a return on their investment.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Interesting situation down in Houston right now. The only city in the U.S. that comes even close to Los Angeles for urban sprawl is considering building a light rail system, and officials there right now are waiting to see what position Tom DeLay takes on it, since they will be seeking federal aid with the project.
You can't get more conservative in the House of Represenatitves right now than DeLay, and conventional wisdom would say he's an automatic "no" on mass trasit funding. But anyone who's had to drive though rush hour traffic in that swamp knows there's got to be something better, so DeLay is apparently weighing how the (heavily Republican) voters in his district feel about it before making a final decision.
[re possible conservative support for Houston light rail]
Republicans and conservatives in general aren't necessarily anti-transit. If traffic congestion in a particular city has gotten so bad that it threatens to scare off businesses and hurts the city's economic competitiveness, and transit is a workable solution, the general pro-business orientation of most Republicans just might get them to support transit.
Uh, you got anything to contribute abt NYC transit?
What is absolutely wierd is that all of my single comments about 17 copies of a posting were also repeated. Strange. Maybe our Webmaster should investigate.
You should have been a carpenter because that hit the nail right on the head.
And after doing that to himself, and of course suffering brain damage, he wrote that message.
"Maybe we should return to typewriters"
Talking about returning to typewriters CLICK HERE
Though you wouldn't know it by today, the spring is around the corner and besides birds, butterflies and baseball, that also means the Hoboken Transit Festival.
Are they gonna have one this year?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I would think they would have it this year, last year it was canccled because of all the restoration work at Hoboken terminal (Which by the way if no one has gotten a chance to see the new lobby/waiting area, should go see).
I'm looking forward to it and if anyone know that they are definatly going to have it this spring please tell....
I usually go to the Hoboken Festival and meet my friend from Yonkers there. If anyone can find out the date of the festival (if they are really having one)please post it on this board.
Thanks,fellow subway nuts!
Chuck Greene
What is the difference between the R32, and R32A
Actually there isn't any. When the original order was placed with the Budd Company it was split into two groups for financial reasons. The R-32A was for cars 3350-3649 and the R-32 for 3650-3949. What causes some confusion is that the last 150 R-32's,3800-3949 had modified interiors including backlit advertising and baffle type fans. Since the General Overhaul all cars are refered to by the TA as R-32's although there are some variations. Sub groups include Phase I,Phase II and the 10 cars rebuilt by Buffalo Transit which have R-38 interiors.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It has been pointed out that the grid gap running roughly north/south between the grounds of Van Cortlandt Park and the point where the Harlem River Ship Canal bends southward into the Harlem River proper is the ROW of the NY Central Putnam Branch (nee NY and Northern RR), where I previously assumed it was an old river bed.
However, one question remains, a river still runs in Westchester (the Saw Mill perhaps?) and into Van Cortlandt Park where it ends in a lake, with no visible outlet. Where did the water once go and what happened to it? It is conceivable that the Old Put was built alongside the removed river, but why would it be removed? RR widening?
I think that is Tibbets Brook. There is still a Tibbets Brook Park in Yonkers, and Tibbet Avenue in the Bronx presumably marks the (approximate) course that the brook once followed. It would have emptied into Spuyten Duyvil Creek. The route of the Put did not follow a waterway in the Bronx, once it split from the Hudson Line.
Is Tibbett Ave the street that runs into John K Kennedy HS?
Yessir!
-Hank
Is Tibbett Ave the street that runs into John F Kennedy HS?
I've noticed that a bit more of that sign has been revealed.
Signage in the subway used to be more comprehensive, listing each and every possible connection in detail. This looks like one of those signs. It apparently has Coney Island connections as well as the Canarsie connection. From the style, it looks very old indeed.
(David, why not get a picture of the sign somewhere on nycsubway.org before they cover it again?)
How old? Well, how old is that Times Square complex adjoining the shuttle, which was, of course, the original IRT line? And, when did the Canarsie line become a subway, a part of the BRT, later the BMT? The sign probably goes back to the beginning of both.
www.forgotten-ny.com
And you know, I was there today and noticed more of the sign (All else I could make out was CONEY ISLAND), and was going to post the same thing!
Other then the side windows, The cab doors, the floors, and the numbers, what are the differences between the R68 and R68A????
Two different manufacturers:
R-68: Westinghouse-Amrail
R-68A: Kawasaki
That's why they've got two different contract numbers.
David
As a matter of fact, most of the differences are cosmetic. The major mechanical difference is:
R-68 uses NYAB Brake Equipment while R-68A uses WABCO
R-68 uses Adtranz E-cam propulsion. At least for now, R-68A uses older Westinghouse propulsion equip.
Most R-68As use the same flooring as the R-68s Only 16 cars have the black (R-110B) flooring.
The floors are slightly different than the R68s. They have little circular bumps in front of the doors. A very few amount of cars have actual R68 floors.
Why would the R68As have older propulsion equipment
Those 'bumps' were added afterwards by Kawasaki (in 1995) because of deterioration under the floors at the door openings. The cars were not originally delivered that way.
I think the R68As have the older brake equipment because they never had problems. Or, not so many problems so that they had to be replaced.
R-68As don't have older BRAKE equipment than R-68s. They may still have their original PROPULSION equipment (though not for long), while the propulsion equipment on the R-68s has been replaced by E-Cam equipment by Adtranz (formerly Westinghouse). This equipment is the controller, under the car. Others can explain in more detail what it does and what the advantages of E-Cam are over the older Westinghouse models.
David
The R-68 Brake equipment is older than the R-68A. The wabco brake valves installed recently were from R-62s and are still older than R-68A equipment.
Oh I see, I see. But, what happened to the R62s? What did they get after?
When the R-62s were linked into 5-car units, 8 brake valves on each link became surplus. Only the brake valves on the open ends were needed.
Oh I remember now. Thanks
Sounds like a form of cannibalism
Actually, it's re-assignment of critical resources. The Wabco brake valves were in storage in Coney Island after being removed from te R-62. Do you think they would serve a greater purpose remaining in storage? Considering the cost of 208 new brake valves, much money was saved.
Linking the cars together has meant that a single failure knocks out 5 R62's instead of 1. Due to a statistical quirk, the increased severity of the failure is not included in the MDBF figures. If it were properly factored in - to make valid before and after comparisons, it would show that MDBF has been static down rather than having increased. It also explains the anomoly as to why availability has remained at 85% despite doubling and tripling the published MDBF statistic.
There is a severe car shortage. At $2 million per car this represents a severe money shortage, as well. If availability were increased to 90%, that would free up over 100 cars and represent a savings of $200 million. This is a figure that wager is considerably in excess of the cost for 208 air brake valves.
Shephen, we do not disagree. As a manager of a maintenance facility, I understand all too well that one failure can lead to four or 5 cars being lost to service. While on paper, my spare factor may be 36 cars, in reality, it may be as little as nine. However, I must deal with what is and not what I would like it to be. As for the MDBF issue, we've been there before. A car is a car is a car. One failure should not be multiplied by 4 or 5 just because it's linked to other cars. Otherwise R-62s could never be meaningfully compared to R-33WFs. The one place I would have agreed with you would have been with the 'D' Types. At least there, all 3 cars carried the same # and in actuality, was a single unit.
A car is a car is a car...I would have agreed with you would have been with the 'D' Types...ll 3 cars carried the same # and in actuality, was a single unit.
For statistical purposes the MDBF "car" measure should be in terms of an indivisible entity or unit. One failure and the entity or unit is out of service. The mileage travelled should be the mileage of the unit not the individual component parts. This results in misleadingly high MDBF figures.
Part of the problem is trying to make a single statistic measure the entire state of the system. This permits the use of statistical gimmicks. As Disraeli said: "there are lies, damn lies and statistics."
There is no doubt that there have fewer in service rolling stock failures than previously. However, how much is directly attributable to link-bar use and how much to improved maintenance. If 75% of the improvement is attributable to maintaining the equipment as per manufacturers' recommendations, then the link-bars been a colossal drain on the financial resoursed allocated to the system.
Regarding your comparison with the D-types. Would taking some paint and renumbering the linked cars make you feel better regarding calculating MDBF. Striking a single digit on the number plate can will reduce the MDBF by a factor of 5 - remember Disraeli.
I'm going to jump in and agree with Stephen. Making
up permanent car sets is a bad idea. MDBF is not a good
statistic. More relevant numbers are mean distance between
service-affecting failure (how often does something crap out
causing a delay or ABD) and average car availability. The
latter depends on inspection manpower as well as reliability.
MDBFs are at the point now where service-affecting failures
are not a critical issue. The more pressing problem is car
shortages which is being caused by increased ridership and
decreased efficiency of the railroad because of slow speed
signs, disabling propulsion field shunting, and gratuitous GTs.
In order for linking to improve availability, the reliability
gains of eliminating electric portions would have to make an
MDBF improvement, per car, of four times (five for the IRT cars),
and you'd have trouble convincing me of that.
You both are trying to force me to defend the indefensible. I don't say that MDBF is a good or accurate measure of car performance. There are too many intangibles to make it a reliable statistic. However, it is one of the statistics on which the performance of a maintenance shop in rated. Therefore, MDBF, thy name is master.
On the other hand, if you want to look at the true performance of a line or car class, look at the % of thru-puts. For example, if you look at the thru-puts on the D line for the last 12 weeks or so, you will see that the MDBF pretty accurately reflects the actual performance of the line they run on.
As for the statistic known as MDBF. You may not like it. You may feel that it is not a true indicator of performance. But what is a statistic. A statistic is data that is used for a comparrison. You may not agree on its validity. However, it does provide a car for car comparrison for the fleet. This is the data that senior management wants.
By the way, MDBF is virtually universally computed this way, by car and not linked unit.
Which maintenance facility????????
It isn't cannibalism. No train eats another. Do you consider heart transplants to be cannibalism?
Do you consider heart transplants to be cannibalism?
If the donor is not dead, then yes.
Similarly, the practice of transforming two individuals into cojoined (siamese) twins for the purpose of using duplicated parts (such as hearts, livers, air compressor valves, etc.) in other units can be considered cannibalism.
If 16 cars have black floor in the R68A models, would I, 5200 happen to have one?
There are many small differences mostly in fit and finish. On R-68's lower grab rails have fittings on 68A's they are welded. Side destination sign units on 68's are slightly different than those on 68A's. 68A's have small pieces of plastic on the A/C access panels to prevent the paint from chipping when they open them for servicing. Cab windows on the B end of the 68's has a frame on 68A's it is flush. Access pannels for the door motors have narrower frames on the 68A's. Heater units under the seats are smaller and do not protrude as much on the 68A's. There are many more to numerous to mention. See if you can find them all I have noticed at least 14 differences visible on car interiors alone. There may be more.
Peace,
Andee
I'm a pro at the exterior!
1) Step plates under doors
2) Window borders on the R68As aren't as big as the R68s
3) Rain gutters are only over the windows and doors on the R68As
4) Most side destination signs have a larger font on R68As
5) The steel is more smooth on the R68As
Hmm... anything else? No, unit numbers don't count.
>>>4) Most side destination signs have a larger font on R68As<<<
Not to mention that the 68's do not have some nothern terminils on the roll(145thst come to mind).
Peace,
Andee
On the R-68, the door to the car swings, on the 68A, it slides.
On the 68, the PAs are aligned down the center of the ceiling, on the 68A, they are on the sides.
As for the sign differences, one of them is more boxy, another is more contoured.
>>>As for the sign differences,...<<<
It is the 68A that is boxy and has recessed access holes to change the signs as opposed to the protruding type on the 68.
Peace,
Andee
I think this may be ridiculously easy for the true railfan, but I thought my father used to recognize which BMT standard was coming into the station by the lights above the front door (red/green, red/white or other combos) Was there a color code, or am I working too much and hallucinating?
Was there a color code, or am I working too much and hallucinating?
Yes and No... Check out www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/markers.htm for the answer to your question.
R-46
R-68A
R-44
R-32
R-62
R-68
R-42
R-36
R-40
R-38
Other Redbirds
R-127
Boxcar
Cattle Car
10 feet of snow, uphill both ways
Boat through Ed Norton's workplace
Swim through Ed Norton's workplace
School Bus
R-33 single
I didn't get it.
Well, I put in all those non-subway car things just to push the reviled R-33 single further down the list, to better illustrate the level at which I detest this execrable vehicle.
Kinda reminds me of Scott Adams' (creator of "Dilbert") enemies list of Dogbert's New Ruling Class, in descending order:
1. Little Billy from "Family Circus"
2. Satan
3. Martha Stewart
etc....
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
R33 single cars are a disgrace th the T.A.
CORRECTION:
19. R-32GE
20. R-33 single
Boy, what a big deal over two of the smallest groups of cars on the system. There are something like 390 R-36WFs and only 39 R-33WFs. If you take the air conditioning out of the 390 cars then you could hate them all equally!
Got this e-mail.. can we confirm it's validity?
.
.
.
.
Subj: Metal Destination Signs
Date: 2/18/00 7:43:13 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: LP6688@aol.com
This summer, after 6688 is done, I will be cleaning out the boxcars at the Shoreline Museum. I know that we have numerous destination signs, in various stages of condition. I have a rather rusty Canal Street sign hanging in my garage.
After we ascertain which signs are surplus, we may put them up for sale. Please E-Mail your address to me, and I will let you know what we have in a few months.
All proceeds will go to SLTM.
Regards,
Lou Shavell
Dear Kid Calos:
I will confirm the validity of this E-Mail, since I wrote it. Many posters on SubTalk know that I am in Management at The Shore Line Trolley Museum in East Haven, CT. I am former (by choice)President and Chairman of the Association, and am now in the position of Executive Director in charge of External Resources, Government Relations, and some aspects of Marketing. While my main personal interest is in New York City Rapid Transit equipment, my efforts are to help all departments, with the guidance of the Board of Trustees and the Planning Committee.
There have been many postings about car # 6688, currently undergoing some restoration at the museum. Fortunately, I have been able to personally fund the supplies necessary to continue this Huge task. However, we have other projects that could use additional funding. We may have some surplus items for sale, but I will not be sure until the box cars can be cleaned out, and duplicate items identified - by our shop superintendent and others who are in the museum management. As I had stated in my E-Mail to you, all proceeds go to the SLTM, since any items sold are museum property. I gain in two ways - the museum earns some much needed cash, and someone, whether they be a collector or just someone looking for a piece with sentimental value, now has a new item they will enjoy and care for.
Your posting has resulted in one inquiry, from a very nice person and I will try and find an item they want. However, I strongly disagree with your use of a public forum to question the validity of an E-Mail. While I am being very calm, as I am well aware of the recent flare-ups on this board and BusTalk, I just want to say that I hold your actions in contempt. I can also assure you that if I do find any surplus materials, and if the museum does decide to sell them, you will get nothing.
Let's work to keep a potential problem under control. If he's got a question or a problem for that matter, each of you needs to do it offline.
Hold the horses.. I'm not barking for another
Polo Grounds Tour.. what I am hereby asking is:
Did the Polo Grounds Shuttle have a
Route Line/Number?
I was at the NYC Transit Museum today and noticed
it was shown on several IRT maps, yet it didn't
display any accompanying "line/number" symbol.
IRT Route numbers were probably assigned about 1948 when the R-12's were delivered. Route numbers were not assigned to the remaining elevated lines (3rd and 9th) or to the shuttles (42 St and Bowling Green). Route No 9 was however assigned to the Dyre Avenue Line which at that time was a separate operation.
Larry,RedbirdR33
02/20/2000
You'll probably be surprised that the R-12 #5760, in the Transit Museum has front and side destination signs for "Polo Grounds", yet those cars never saw that line. There is no route number on it but the generic "shuttle" would suffice if they were hap hazardly sent there.
Bill Newkirk
Did any R-cars ever operate on the Polo Grounds Shuttle? It would be interesting to see a picture of the operation. Only R-12s, R-14s, R-15s, and R-17s would even have been around for such a trip, I would think.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
No The cars were the same used on the current 4 Line, and at that time still the Jerome Lex only used LoVolts. In 1958 only the 1 and 6 used 2nd generation cars on the IRT Mainline
Bill....For that matter, there was also a side sign for: 167th St.-Jerome Ave., if I'm not mistaken.
Carl M.
Hold the horses.. I'm not barking for another
Polo Grounds Tour.. what I am hereby asking is:
Did the Polo Grounds Shuttle have a
Route Line/Number?
I was at the NYC Transit Museum today and noticed
it was shown on several IRT maps, yet it didn't
display any accompanying "line/number" symbol.
Furthermore, Which car types were used?
No, there was no letter or number associated with the Polo Grounds Shuttle route. The cars used were original IRT cars, which had no provision for route numbers. They used metal plaques for the northern and southern terminals and a route description. Several types of early IRT cars look pretty similar; I'm not sure if the ones used on the PG shuttle were the lighter "composite" cars (made partly of wood) used on the Manhattan "els" or were steel IRT subway cars, also known as "Lo-V"s.
I think that wooden El cars were kept in serice there up to the end, most of the el structure was a dual contracts thing but the terminal station was original 9th Av. - very light.
In the 50s they used 1 2 car shuttle of early low volts. It only ran 3 stops, Polo Grounds, Sedgewick Ave and 167- Jerome
>It only ran 3 stops, Polo Grounds, Sedgewick Ave and 167- Jerome
skipping Jerome/Anderson??
sorry, forgot about that 4 stops
Composites were assigned to the shuttle when service began in 1940. During 1948 Steinways, displaced from the Flushing Line by the arrival of the R-12's, replaced them. In 1953 Hi-V's showed up until replaced by Steinway Motors 4215-4219 in 1956. These had previously been Flivver Trailers and were converted to Steinway Motors back in 1929. These lasted until the end, June 15,1958.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>These lasted until the end, June 15,1958.
The end was August 31st 1958 mister Larry. :)
For those who care, metrocard.cjb.net is back online. It is otherwise unchanged.
In addition, if you happen to have a bookmark, either remove it forever, or open it manually and change the URL to metrocard.cjb.net.
Are there any differences between the R62, and R62A
Most of the differences are in the components within the cars.
R62 uses GE Propulsion
R-62A uses Westinghouse
R-62 uses Wabco Air Brake
R-62A uses NYAB
R-62 Uses Stone Safety HVAC Equipment
R-62A Use Thermoking HVAC equip.
There are also differences in the door systems used.
not to mention the r-62A's have a spiffy little
"KAWASAKI" patch attached to the forehead panel
on the rear end of the car..
Hold on, the R62As were built by Bombardier. The R62s were built by Kawasaki. Now, how does a R62A have Kawasaki on it?
R62As should have "Bombardier" patches on them, instead of "Kawasaki".
Chaohwa
I don't know why the MTA keeps ordering similar cars with different componets. All this does is increase the amount of training it needs to give to it's employees and wastes money. they take a look what he airlines are doing. They are trying to reduce the amount of diff monels and manufactures of there planes so that they can have an expert staff while minamizing training costs and reducing the amount of differnt spare parts it needs to stock
There is a method to the madness (I'm not sure I agree with it)> The TA feels that with 2 or more suppliers, it is less captive to manufacturer's strikes & price gouging.
What did they do to the R11 when they renamed them R34? Is that when they changed the front window?
The primary reason for the overhaul of the R-11s in the 1960s was to make them able to MU with other SMEE equipment. The disc brakes were replaced by standard clasp brakes. The electric portions were replaced by the standard E/P of the day. I believe the percipitrons were also removed during the overhaul.
Indeed, the “Precipitrons” were removed, since by 1964 Jonas Salk’s polio vaccine had been on the market for nine years.
Were those things ever proven to be effective at combating ANY germ based disease?
I don't know, but supposedly they caused sterility in the crews, though I don't see how.
One R-11 was modified before the R-34 rebuild to m. u. with SMEE cars as a replacement for R-16 6494, IIRC.
When were the r11/34 scrapped?
around 1975-6
1981
03/09/2000
The subject of whether all the R-11's were scrapped has been debated. It has been told by at least one reliable source that some R-11's were last seen in a rail yard in New Jersey intact, not cut up.
I have heard that they were being sent south to Texas to be used as a restaurant or flea market. Maybe so, if they were being scrapped, the bodies would be cut up, not left intact. This indeed is a mystery.
Bill Newkirk
I had heard that (some at least) had survived in Florida, in use as a restaurant or something similar.....
03/10/2000
Or well! I guess they went south to Florida instead of opting for an extended ride west to Texas!
Wouldn't that be something if they still exist! After all, they're stainless steel.
Bill Newkirk
The R11 was last used in passanger service in 1976. Perhaps Larry RedbirdR33 can confirm that.
DiD the R-11's have Ultraviolet bulbs in its ventilating system to KILL airborn germs, if so do any other "R"s have them and who sweeps out the dead ones?
That would be the perciptrons which were removed during the R-34 GOH.
Peace,
Andee
Yes. They were called precipitrons. They were removed when the cars were rebuilt because it was shown that they were making the male passangers and workers sterile.
No, none of the other R units ever had any gizmo like that. You could almost say the precipitrons did their job too well. As for germs, it's a wonder they survive at all in the hostile environment of the subway. OTOH, if bacteria can become drug-resistant, I suppose they can also become subway-resistant.
That was not the question.
The question was when they were scrapped
The answer is 1981.
what do you care about a r11 ????? you are a transverse club r 142 fan club member ( card carrying )
transverse cabs you love the most !!! with your $ 1.80 fare !!!!!!! to pay for the r 142 S
" S " as in scrap the 142s !!!!!!
What is your problem? You decide to pick fights with me by responding to messages I post which have NOTHING to do with you. And this post is complete CRAP! If I was the webmaster here, you would have been unable to post for a long time. Don't bother trying to join offsubtalk, you'll be booted before you even know you are a member. Everyone else however is still welcome. Considering the lackluster quality of Mr. Allah's posts on this board and that many people feel the same way, I don't believe that your barring will affect offsubtalk membership detrimentally. It might even be positive if I add Mr. Willie Free, since month number three to the mission statement.
The interior straight bar grab handles were changed to the more common individual metal strap hangers as well as the ceiling and lighting modifications.
02/20/2000
Don't forget new ceilings (R-32 style), flourscent lighting and axiflow fans used on the then current smee's.
Bill Newkirk
Also, one or more of the R-11 cars were given blue-door paint jobs to mimic the R-32's. The storm-doors (ends) also got a the same treatment. Their original color matched the stainless steel bodies, or came close to it.
BTW, when the cars were re-introduced as the R-34 didn't the TA also modify the storm doors (on some of the cars) with a standard railfan window -- eliminating the port-hole version of the earlier years?
Doug aka BMTman
Nope - the R34 version of the R11 still had the R16 style storm door window. They also took out most of the interior standee poles. The original R11 had way too many of them. They changed fans, lights and straps. Pity - I like the flared fittings where they joined the car ceiling. A nice modernistic touch, somewhat reminiscent of art deco.
Wayne
I thought I saw pics of some R-34's with what looked like the outline of a standard railfan window around the porthole window. Can anyone verify this? It would at least indicate that they considered the change.
Doug aka BMTman
Wow, Wayne, you have quite a memory. I have a book that shows interior & exterior or every car class R-10 through R-46. I didn't remember the original interior so I dug the book out. It shows those flared collars you mentioned. I never noticed them before. Very unusual. It also showed an exterior pix of car #8019. At the time the photo was taken, it had a rectangular storm door glass. I guess some of the storm doors were replaced (at least one, anyway).
#8013 (both ends of it), our R11 museum piece, has round storm door windows. So did the wrecked #8016, at least at her damaged end. You are probably right - they replaced one or both doors on at least that one car #8019. I kind of miss the R11 - they were among the more "moosical" B-Division cars. Pulling out of Prospect Park they were always good for a nice squeal on that sharp curve in the tunnel. I wonder how they would have sounded on the OTHER (more infamous) side.
I actually SAW them with the old interior once as a little kid - we were out with Grandmother and went from Cortelyou to Prospect to Botanic Garden. We went one stop on the shuttle. I think it was 1963 or thereabouts.
Wayne
I took a look at the Newark Airport Monorail extension last Wednesday. The "tracks" (or whatever you call them on a monorail) are about to reach the West side of Routes 1 and 9. All of the vertical parts of this erector set are in place from there to the station. Construction of the station itself is well along, and it seems that they are starting to put the "rails" in place from the station back toward the airport. The NE Corridor platforms are placed as islands between the local and express tracks, allowing NJT and Amtrack to stop there on any of the 4 tracks. Too bad no provision was made to extend PATH from Newark Penn Station.
/*Too bad no provision was made to extend PATH from Newark Penn Station*/
Was this because of political pressure on the Port Authority concerning the claim that the PA "favors" NJ over NY? Or was this because of opposition from the airlines about using ticket surcharge funds to finance off-site improvements (as happened when the JFK Airtrain was proposed)?
My only thought on this topic concerns the reliablity of the Monorail system at Newark. I work at the airport in a customer relations level and about 2-3 weeks ago when we hard heavy snow and ice the whole system died. And the PA's back up plan was bussing passangers between the termnials at the airport (which I might add was near total caos). Anyway, If anyone can tell me, Who actually built the Monorail & Cars used at Newark? I sure Hope they aren't the same firm making the ones at JFK.
In Short I'm a avid rail fan and still am not sure that once the extention between the airport and the railstation is complete that I will be using it during bad weather.
I is easier to build the stations for NJT rather then extend the PATH, Different signaling, added 3rd rail, congestion with NJT and Amtrack, Also PATH does not on the ROW as it does East of Newark.
(Why not just extend the PATH?)
I once heard that in addition for the airlines' desire not to connect to mass transit, "union issues" played a role. The feeling was that the PATH is so featherbedded, and PATH workers so overpaid paid, that the last thing they wanted to do was extend it. Or so I heard.
In any event, the decision not to extend the PATH was made before the big battle over the Port Authority drain to NJ got rolling. In my view, the situation really became unfair only in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The recession cut MTA tax revenues and subsidies, and also cut World Trade Center rents. The MTA was forced to cut costs, cut service, raise tolls, and raise fares.
The Port Authority, instead, starting diverting money from the NY airports, when the toll and World Trade Center surpluses were no longer enough to cover the PATH and bus terminal deficits. The low PATH fare, and low Port Authority tolls, made MTA transit passengers and toll payers mad.
Then, despite the big surpluses generated by JFK and LGA, the PA announced it could not pay for the complete airport access system it had promised. It still refuses to put up any money for subway access to LaGuardia, even though LaGuardia passengers are paying the passenger facility charge. And it raised charges for the airlines in New York, all to cover the PATH deficit.
In short, New Yorkers have a legitimate reason to feel cheated by NJ via the Port Authority. Had the PA raised tolls and fares as the MTA did, and used the LGA and JFK surpluses to build a more complete airport access system as promised, the conflict would never had erupted. By this time the PA would be flush and offering discounts, just as the MTA is. There might even be cooperation on a rail tunnel. As it is, it isn't just the Mayor who is mad, and the conflict will last beyond his administration.
One more point. One reason NJ wants PATH fares low is because so many of its riders have already paid for a ride on NJT. Fair enough. The MTA, however, chose to have the LIRR and MetroNorth give its riders a discount on a combined monthly pass/Metrocard, rather than have the suburban riders subsidized by the subway. In effect, the commuter railroads are now paying the subway to carry their riders to their final destination. NJT could have done the same thing with the PATH. The idea is to have New York, rather than New Jersey, pick up the PATH deficit.
If it extended the Path system to Newark Airport, or anywhere else, the PA would have to pay additional transit subsidies year after year. That is why it does not want to nor has it ever extended the Path system.
Funny you mention platform location...
I took a Northeast Corridor train to Penn-NY on Friday, and as we whizzed by, I could have sworn the platforms were outside the local tracks. I was looking out the left side of the northbound train (and the left side of the southbound train when I was returning) and don't remember seeing two platforms, just one further away.
Michael
At this time the line is not using the two new local tracks and therefore the trains passing through this station use the "express" track. There are also two center tracks used by Amtrak through express service. (The line is being expanded at this section to 6 tracks from 4 tracks).
I am going to the New Amsterdam Theater tonight.
I will be taking the NJ PATH in 33rd street.
Can anybody tell what subway line i should take to get to 214 W 42nd St? It is between 7th and 8th Ave. Thanks anybody for what you can tell me.
Take the N or R uptown one stop to 42nd St. Times Square. The Lion King is right outside the 42nd & 7th southwest side entrance.
Walking up Broadway should provide the quickest route (10 min - no waiting time). Good for the soul, better for the cobbler.
And best for the balance on your MetroCard. (Unless it's unlimited.)
Has anyone else noticed that heypaul has been AWOL for at least the past 48 hours?
Do you think if I were to offer him a quart of strawberries, he would stop looking for the key to the foodlocker and come back?
I have it on good authority that heypaul is alive and well.
Peace,
Andee
QUESTION ??: how did you load that audio track ???
ANSWER: View the source and find out.
Long Weekend, maybe he went out of town.
Where do you find these clips?
Just look under "wav" in any search engine. There are plenty of wav sites.
[Has anyone else noticed that heypaul has been AWOL for at least the past
48 hours?
Do you think if I were to offer him a quart of strawberries, he would
stop looking for the key to the foodlocker and come back?]
Interesting you should mention his disappearance.
I have been involved in the investigation into the ID of the person or persons who had impersonated heypaul at this website.
I have the assistance of two seasoned Detectives, Frank Pembleton and Tim Bayliss, on loan from Baltimore's Homicide Unit.
Homicide is involved here because we consider it an assassination (of heypaul's character -- being such a character that he is).
We are still actively involved in bringing the criminals to justice.
Any information that anyone may have to aid in this investigation is greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Det. John Munch CCD, NYPD
(Computer Crimes Division)
Maybe that pie that was stuck to his ceiling finally came down and hit him.
wayne :o>
maybe that pie hit you ?
No pies don't affect me- I've been hit by so many of them over the years...
wayne
He's been posting at David Cole's site, the Nth Ward
We need him back ASAP. There has been a complete lack of serious humor for the last 4 days.
And lo and behold, He's BACK!!!! We're saved!!!!!
RIGHT ON !!!!
I was wondering if they still sell the good frankfurters in New York City with the Nedick's orange. Sure could use one about now.
Yes, but not in subway stations any more.
That's too bad. Now I have to get my frankfurters from Nathans or the peddler in the street. Knishes too. Shame on the MTA for taking away these high class eateries.
And what is wrong with Nathan's???????
Ever wonder why Nathan's is still around (and expanding) and Nedick's went out of business? Quality!!.
As a kid Ithought Nedick's franks were good but only because I lived in the Bronx and never got to Coney Island where the only Nathan's was at the time. When Nathan's opened a store on Broadway and 43rd St and I got my first taste of one - I never went back to Nedicks again.
Don't ever try a Nathan's on the Jersey Turnpike then. One taste of theirs there and you'll never eat a frank again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It does seem that the Nathans hot dogs and french fries outside of Coney Island don't quite taste the same. I personally prefer Sabrett's.
Ahh, a DWD* afficianado. (like myself)
Peace,
Andee
*Dirty water dog
Hebrew National for me, please (like the ones I just had for dinner, along with a pile of pasta and a couple of ears of fresh Florida sweet corn - it's not as good as the local stuff in summer, but it wasn't bad).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Boars Head Franks. Nathans is riding on nostalgia. I've tried to go there a couple of times, and it has been awful -- cold fries, no way to hold all the food, nowhere to sit, wind blowing food around.
I believe the TA has concluded that the more food is sold in the subway, the more garbage there will be -- especially wrappers and spoiled food to feed the rats. From what I've seen, with so many passenger slobs, that's the case. On balance I'd have to agree with them: no food.
If we could just get that stupid state law against pay toilets repealed, however, perhaps there could be attended bathrooms, and decent water fountains.
During the winter, when Nathans is enclosed, they place chairs and tables there. And the fries aren't cold.
[If we could just get that stupid state law against pay toilets repealed, however, perhaps there could be attended bathrooms, and decent water fountains.]
In Amsterdam, most large chain food outlets (BK & McD, etc.) have restrooms *with attendants*. "You have to pay a fee to p**".
But, they are both *clean* and *safe*. Cost at a BK was equal to 25¢ in the states. It appears that the attentants are private contractors, as these people were not wearing uniforms like the rest of the help.
Since many people have turned into slobs, and have no respect for property, I think this is the way to go! (pun intended!). With this system, toilets could safely return to major subway stations.
The law agains Pay Toilets in Calif went into effect back in the 80s.
How did we get from Hot dogs to pay toilets?? Wronge turn somewhere.
And don't toy we me my talking about knishes. Can't find them at all in the midwest.
As long as we're talking about pay toilets, has anyone heard this latest story in today's papers?
Unknown perpertrators broke into the restrooms at a police station house and stole ALL the toilets!!!! Detectives are feverously working on the case but at this time say they have nothing to go on!!!!
02/21/2000
Jeff,
You gotta get on this case Sarge! Time to FLUSH them out !!
Bill Newkirk
PFFFFFPLBLBLBPLBLPLBLPLBLPFFFFFFFFFT!!! Ptui!
First good laff I've had all day.
wayne
I always said good police depts are going down the toilet
Does anyone know why such laws were created? The idea seems fair to me, especially in large cities, such as Manhattan, where currently there are plenty of bathroom throughout the city, just not enough of them open to the public.
The idea is not fare. Look at how many closed bathrooms there are in the subway, because it isn't cost effective to keep it open and clean without charging an admission fee. It's just another system of price control, which NEVER works.
"The idea is not fare."
Ain't that a cute pun? I just spelled fair, fare.
02/21/2000
I remember the pay toilets on the subway in the early 60's. It was a dime then, for 10 cents it may not like home, but it was a paradise of relief. I guess some idiot liberal politicans inacted this law. We can thank those BOZO's when the station you're waiting in smells like piss !
Bill Newkirk
I think we should all go into their homes and urinate inside in protest.
Remember, if we were to call either the City Council or the State Legislature a bunch of dumb chimps, animal rights activisits would protest the terrible insult... to chimpanzees.
The toilets were being used for things other than what they were created for. Drugs and other such illicit things which I will not go into in a family bulletin board
By the way - when the One at Gun Hill Road (on the #5) was open there was a device on it and you had to put a nickel in it to open the door (this was in the late 50's)
Politicians in New York in the late 1960s railed against the pay toilet scourge, saying it was unfair to force people to use them in time of need (plus, some of the early equal rights advocated pointed out, the larger restrooms were biased against women because there were no pay urinals). So the pay toilets were banned and the result was -- no toilets! Or, at least, no toilets most people would go into, at least until the past few years with the crime rate drop.
You saw a mini-version of this flap a few years ago with the battle over the self-cleaning toliets, complete with the 1990s-updated ADA dispute.
All in all, another example of the law of unintended consequences rearing its ugly head.
The whole idea was to force people to provide something for nothing, and guess what, they chose not to.
The rule against pay toilets hit just as social disintegration raised the cost of operating a facility. With crime and vandalism and general littering (and other things, as someone mentioned) a public toilet has to be attended to remain clean, safe, and operable. How can you pay for that if you have no revenues.
BTW, this law came from Long Island, not the Upper West Side. A Long Island Assemblywoman got it passed because she objected to paying to go to the bathroom at Thruway rest stops.
About 2wks ago I boarded a sb4@125th st,a woman entered and sat slightly opposite she promptly opened a bag of fast food (fried chicken of some sort)and began enjoing her meal. As she finished each piece she casually threw the bones and wrappers under the seat,oblivious to the glaring looks from me.By the time i eached my stop at 86th she`d finished her repast and was sitting in peacefully amidst the mess of paper and bones on the floor below her.
The lack of food in the system is another case of decent people being inconvienced by thoughtless pigs.
"....thoughtless pigs."
While I agree that these people engaged in unsavory practices, I do not wish to have my entire species being used as a metaphor for humans with the worst behavior. Pigs are very clean, it is only because we have been given a poor sweating system by nature, that we must roll around in mud. You humans have done well in inventing air conditioning which would benefit us, but you have been inconsiderate in your hogging (no pun intended) of the resource. One day it will be we, the boars and sows that will enjoy the cool breezes of frigid air.
THE REVOLUTION IS COMING!
THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED!
WHOA,WHOA my porcine amigo! Absolutly no offense was meant,some of my best friends are pigs-truly!
"..one day it is we..that wil enjoy the cool breezes of frigid air."-yes but only as bacon or pork patties in my fridge.
02/22/2000
"The revolution will not be televised"
Not even pay per view ??
Bill Newkirk
My idea of the perfect hot dog:
VIENNA BEEF CHICAGO STYLE HOT DOG
Heat in water, steam, grill or microwave to 170°F. Place the authentic Vienna Beef Hot Dog in a steamed poppyseed bun. Then pile on the toppings in this order:
1. Yellow Mustard
2. Bright Green Relish
3. Fresh Chopped Onions
4. Two Tomato Wedges
5. A Kosher Pickle Spear
6. Two Sport Peppers (careful!)
7. A Dash of Celery Salt
Yummmm.... :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
The Nth Ward
Oh my God! We agree on something!
Having been to a couple Nathan's on Long Island, my objection isn't to quality - the hot dogs and fries are okay - but to price. They seem awfully overprices, especially the fries.
Big Amen to that comment. Also when they are busy the dogs are undercooked. Betwenn the high price and the gambling on how the food will be cooked, its not worth patronizing the chain. Their glory days of Coney Island, Yonkers, Oceanside and Times Square are long gone.
It just seems to me that when the Handwerker family decided to " Take Nathans public" (ie, sell stock to the public) and sell franchises, food quality and control took a back seat to profits for stockholders.
Nedick's Franks were so-so but their frank rolls were great!!! A cross between a frank bun and white toast.
New England style buns, as they are properly called, I believe. Freihofer's still makes them but they're hard to find in the grocery stores.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nedicks Franks were not bad, 3rd on my list after Nathans and Sabarett for Non-Kosher, But their Orange Drink was the Best Ever
Nathans at Coney Island has the best frankfurters, bar none. Nothing tops off a long train ride like a couple of hot dogs and cheese fries.
Wayne
Agreed, everytime I am in New York, I go to 2 places for Lunch, Nathans on Stillwell, and the Pizza Place on McDoughal and Bleeker in the Village, and I will do that on my 10 hour layover in May.
I vagely remember hot dog places in the subways. They had juice in those cone-shaped cups in plastic holders.
Anyone remember what station(s) the hot dog places were in?
www.forgotten-ny.com
I can remember the one at 59th St on the #1. It was located on the SB platform near the staircase to the IND.
I think there was one at 14th St. and 8th Ave. where you changed from the A train to to the Canarsie line.
I seem to remember one at the TS end of the GC/TS shuttle. Can't recall if it was a Nedicks. The Nedicks I remember the best was at the top of the stairs by MACY*S at Herald Square 34/bwy(the toasted buns were the best). Until they were chased out by high rents.
Peace,
Andee
There was also a Nedick's at the grand Central end of the Shuttle. I remember having a hot dog at a stand between the Canarsie line and the A train at Bway Jct. back in 1958-59-60.
Carl M.
Is that the one seen in the movie "The French Connection"?
Yes it is...
No, that was another stand that also sold peanuts and fresh fruit drinks. The Nedicks I'm referring to was located near the Vanderbilt Ave. ramp just about where the Discovery store is now. It must have closed sometime in the late 1970s or early 80s.
Carl M.
The busiest Nedicks I remember was the one next to Macys on 34 and BDWY. Oh there is such a story about that place, when Strauss (Macy s owner could not but those few feet)
What he's trying to say is that Macy's had to build around it.
Yes They Did have to build around the Nedicks.(or whatwas there then, next time you are there check it out.
You don't have to reiterate.
02/21/2000
Just like that saloon on Sixth Avenue that refused to be sold so Rockefeller Center could be built. Yup! they built around it. I believe somewhat recently in Japan a similar occurance happened. A planned highway found a house in the way. The owner steadfastly refuse to sell, so the highway ROW was shifted.
Bill newkirk
The first Nedick's I ever ate in wasn't even in the city, it was in the Hempstead Bus Terminal. (The old one, a block south of where the present terminal is.)
In the late 1800's the owner of that parcel of land wanted the unheard of sum of $70,000 for the piece of property that became Nedicks. R. H. MACY (NOT Strauss, Macys partner) refused to pay it and built around it. This story is part of the new employee orientation we give to new hires at MACY*S.
Peace,
Andee
which is probably worth 7 million today
B1 Nedicks B1---The name is little Nick and Mr. let me be precise.
You lost your pep, you lost your step, so here is my advice.
What will I do mr Nick, here's what you do Mr. Quick
you stop in your nearest Nedicks store.
What I'll I buy?
You buy a glass of refreshing tasty Nedick's orange drink
It's refreshing flavor you'll adore.
Tell me more---What does it cost little Nick
Only a dime Mr Quick--a glass will help to keep you in the pink.
That;s terrif
So for a bigger and better zip it's a pleasure to take a sip
of a cold Nedick's orange drink----B1 Nedicks B1
Thought all you guys out there would like to hear the old Nedicks commercial from long ago. Yes, I have a great memory.
Wasn't there also a hotdog stand in the East New York complex?
www.forgotten-ny.com
YES, there was a hot dog stand at Broadway/East New York, right at the bottom of the escalators as I recall. There also were not one but TWO of them at Columbus Circle. The one you had mentioned, on the southbound IRT platform at the transfer to the IND, heated the hotdogs in a sort of glass box, using heat lamps. The other one was on the northbound IRT platform, also at the transfer to the IND. This one used a metal grilling machine, where the hotdogs would be placed between rotating, heated metal cylinders. I liked those better. That stand is still there, but the hotdogs are gone. They now sell newspapers, candy, and chips, like most of the other subway concession stands.
There used to be one at the 125th street station of the A, B, C, D trains when i went to Rice High School from 1971 to 1975. The man did away with the newspaper stand in May 1975, one month before i graduted in June 1975 from Rice High School on 124th st and Lenox Ave..
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd
Yes, upstairs between the Jamaica El and the Canarsie El.
Well, that depends. In most cases you can't get a frank or hamburger in the subways these days.
However, if heypaul should venture into the system with his gas-grill, we could be treated to a Bar-B-Que down on the DeKalb Ave. platform!
Doug aka BMTman
I think not DeKalb, you would have to go to either Ave U or Neck Road Stations on the Brighton for BBQ. By the way I am having a BBQ tomorrow in honor of all those bygone Presidents in the past. Good and Bad. BYOB. The forcast is Sunny, no clouds, breeze for the SW at 12 knots and the Temp 82 degrees. ALOHA
Comparing Nedick's and Nathan's franks was like comparing apples and oranges. They tasted so differently it was like 2 different foods!! By the way, talking about fast food from the old days who remembers when you could order from your car at White Castle and the waitresses would come out and attach a tray with your order to your car window?
Although I was too young at the time to drive, I remember that the WC on 43rd and Queens Blvd (below the #7 line) had the girls go out on roller skates. The trays would attach to the sides of the cars and you would flash your lights, when done, in order for them to come out and take back the dirty trays.
For those of you that lived to So Calif during the 50s and 60s the Best was Bob s Big Boy, when the old man owned the company. I had a big boy last year on the NJ Turnpike and again in Michigan and they WERE NOT THE SAME. No relish. I do not remember car hops at White Castle. I do remember there was a White Castle at Fulton and FranklinAves, and of course in your local grocers freezer, even i Hawaii.
Yes, but didn't the car tip over?
Come on, we're not talking about Big Macs or Whoppers, we're talking about White Castles for G-d's sake. They're light!!!
I was not talking about either one of those products. I was talking about large curved ribs which Mr. Flintstone in that drive in joint.
Wouldn't it be wonderful to ride the 3rd Avenue Thru Express from 149th Street to Chatham Square? The motorman operates the flip over controller in the Q cars down the Third Avenue El until we reach 42nd Street. It is a great ride. ENJOY.
The 3rd Avenue El in the Bronx had three tracks, with a few express stops - did they ever run express service in the Bronx? It would have to have been before my time.
Wayne
From what my grandfather told me years ago, trains originating at Gun Hill ran express in the Bronx and Manhattan to South Ferry. Trains running from the Bronx Park terminal ran local to Chatham Sq. I remember him telling me that this was the service pattern when he rode it after coming back from the war in 1945. I would assume all exp. service ended when the Bronx Park terminal was closed in 1952.
There was Express Service to 1 week before the end in Both Directions
Wayne: After the Dual Contracts construction was complete the 3 Avenue El ran bascially three services, 3 Avenue Local, 3 Avenue Local-Express (Lcl in Bx,Exp in Man) and the 3 Avenue Thru-Express.
The 3 Avenue Thru Exp ran express from Tremont Av south and used the upper level between 149 St and 125 St in the direction of traffic.
Its interesting that the regular express was called a local-express because 2 Avenue El trains that ran express in Manhattan and local in the Bronx were simply called "2 Avenue Express."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Dear Redbird R33,
I found your post of Feb. 20 on subtalk to be of interest, since I liked to ride the 3rd av. el. in the summers when I was a kid ( from about 1951-4).
However, I thought the thru expresses were express up beyond Tremont St. as far as Fordham Road, which was an express stop...
A sincere, inquring mind would like to know...
Best wishes,
Morton Belcher
P. S.:
I remember taking a thru express from 42nd Street to 125 Street (I know it was a thru express because it went up on the upper level of 125 Street) but unfortunately I didn't look carefully at the destination sign of that particular train... But I thought that I remember thru expresses going as far as Gun Hill Road ...
Will look forward to any info anyone can give me on this subject ...
Am I right that the thru epresses on 3rd Ave. were called "thru expresses" because they ran "thru" to 241st St., rather than terminating at Gun Hill Rd. like other 3rd Ave. trains? That would be consistent with the normal usage of the term: a "thru" train is one that doesn't require a change of trains. That it was a kind of "super express" was incidental (if I am right), but the term has taken on that meaning as a result, and is still used in the sense of "super express" for the #5 "thru express" trains to Dyre Ave. or Nereid Ave. Can anyone confirm (or deny) this evolution of the phrase?
Thru-express was the IRT term for trains which ran express on the Third Avenue El in the Bronx. It did not refer specifically to trains running through to Gun Hill Road or 241 Street. The 3 Avenue trains which ran express in Manhattan and local in the Bronx were called local-express. The Thru-express designation was also used for the #1 Broadway-7 Av Thru-Exp from January 14,1955 to June 28,1956. It was also used for the #1 Broadway Thru-Exp from February 6,1959 to about May, 1976. This was an am rush service which ran local south of 96 Street but ran express on the local tracks north of 137 Street.
The Thru Express is also used for the #5 trains which run express in the Bronx. This service began on April23,1953.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS The only trains to ever carry the "Super Express" designation in service were the #7 Flushing Super Express which ran from 1953 to 1956 supplementing the regular express.
Didn't the Super Express also run in 1964-65 during the World's Fair?
Larry Redbird: I have to disagree with you on the Broadway Thru Exp. The Broadway-7th Ave Thru Express Ran Exp South of 96th St, then switched to the Middle Track at 103rd, and Ran Express to 157th St, It ran in AM Rush Hour and then the PM Rush Hour Southbound. They stopped it when the Switching at 96th St, and The Bdwy 7th Ave became a local. I used to ride this once a week until late 1957 to visit my Aunt near Dyckman St for Friday Night Dinner. This was the time when the Bdwy 7th Ave Local Terminated at 137th St and the Exp ran to 242nd.
Bob: After the West Side Changeover in which the #1 became a local at all times, the TA institued a sort of local- express service that at first skipped 191,181,157 and 145 St. This was later modified to skip 215,207,157 and 145. It ran southbound only during the am rush for about an hour or so. It alternated with the regular locals out of 242. I rode this service several times and trains displayed "Broadway Thru-Exp" signs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Non-stop from 157th St. to 96th St? Sounds neat. I guess the reason they don't do this today is that everyone would crowd onto the expresses and leave the locals empty, whereas the current skip-stop 1/9 arrangement distributes passenger load more evenly.
The #7 trains that ran non-stop between Willets Point and Grand Central during the World's Fair were frequently called "Super-expresses" but carried "exp-lcl" or lcl-exp signs on the cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The World's Fair Super Expresses registered "SUP EXP" on the identra signs at 5th Ave and Grand Central. Ordinary expresses registerd "EXP" at these stations.
I remember in the early and Mid 50s, when The West Side had a local and Exp to 242 Van Cortlandt Pk, during AM Rush Hrs they ran a thru Express downtown and PM Northbound, from 96th 157 on the center rail
Thru-express was a term used by the IRT to designate those 3 Avenue trains which ran express in The Bronx as well as Manhattan. It did not refer specifically to trains running through to Gun Hill Road and 241 Street. There was a #1 Broadway Thru-Exp which used the center track of the Broadway Line between 137 St and 96 St from Janaury,1955 to June,1956. There was a #1 Broadway Thru-Exp which ran express on the local tracks of the Broadway Line from 242 St to 137 St from February,1959 to about May,1976. These trains ran local south of 137 St. There was and is of course the #5 Lexington Av Thru-Exp which runs express in The Bronx. This service began in April of 1953.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'm sure everyone has their favorite topics of discussion on this board... one of my favorites is the 3rd Ave. El ...
Does anyone know if the 3rd Ave. El ran a thru express from Gun Hill Road to City Hall/ South Ferry? It has already been mentioned that the 3rd Av. El ran a thru express from Tremont Ave. south to Manhattan (during the time I rode the 3rd Av. El, to City Hall, since the branch from Chatham Square to South Ferry had been (sigh) torn down..)
A sincere inquiring mind would like to know....
Thanks in advance...
Best wishes to all ....
Morton Belcher
Morton: Basically the Thru-Exp did run between 241 St and Manhattan,later it was Gun Hill Rd and Manhattan. They used the exp track south of Tremont but did not terminate there.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Morton: The 3 Avenue El in Manhattan was built with a center track for a good part of its length. There was no express stations as such but express service was operated by "X" and "XX" express trains using the center track and switching to the local track as necessary. After the Dual Contract construction of a third track and the express platforms regular express service as we know it began. The 3 Avenue Lcl-Exp started on January 17,1916 and the 3 Avenue Thru-Express on July 9,1917. I checked several sources and the Thru-Exp ran express in the Bronx between Tremont Av and 149 Street. These trains used the local tracks north of Tremont. This is interesting because Fordham Road was rebuilt into an express station.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for the update ... just discovered your posting among the many other interesing postings... And yes, I knew about the situation prior to the dual contracts and the building of the third track and the express service as we know it..
It is interesting that the Thru expresses used the local tracks north of Tremont ... did they stop at all stations north of Tremont, or did they just stop at Fordham Road (which was rebuilt into an express station) and subsequent stations north of Fordham Road?
I tried to e-mail you directly to find out more information about this matter, but unfortunately I have not been able to succeed, presumably because as your mail server is rather busy, your mail server is not always able to receive e-mails...
I would also appreciate it if you would be good enough to e-mail me privately the names of the sources you checked... I'm always interested in learning about new sources re: the 3rd Ave. El...
Thanks in advance...
Morton Belcher
flcg1018@mails.fju.edu.tw
I have a subway map from around 1969 which at the moment I cannot find. However, there is one thing I remember that always bothered me: Why did they show two separate South Ferry Stations? That is; one for the west side and one for the Lex.?
One is for the IRT (1/9) trains. The other is for the BMT (N/R)trains.
They are less than 2 blocks from each other
Peace,
Andee
Maybe there were two separate fare control zones for the 7th Ave. (outer loop) and Lexington (inner loop) South Ferry stations - I can't recall.
By the way, the BMT station is Whitehall St., not South Ferry.
I always thought it was Whitehall St/South Ferry if not I stand corrected.
Peace,
Andee
It is, but the primary name is "Whitehall St.".
I can't help but think of South Bend when Whitehall St. is mentioned - mainly because we lived on Whitehall Drive.
There was no free transfer between the inner and outer loop stations, even though they shared a single token booth. That is why they were shown as two separate stations.
I presume that when there was an "el" station at South Ferry, it counted as a third station. Was there ever a free transfer between subway and el at South Ferry? If there was, it was presumably via a paper transfer ticket. I doubt there ever was, but since I wasn't around then, I'd like to hear from someone who knows.
There never was a free transfer between the Lex and 7th Ave Lines at South Ferry or to the old 3rd Ave E which also ended at So Ferry. The Official Name of the BMT Station is WHITEHALL STREET, there are signs ponting to the Ferry, but it is not part of the name.
The BMT Station: While the official name may be "Whitehall St", "South Ferry" was a secondary name, and I recall the station pillers having alternating signs, "Whitehall Street" on one and "South Ferry" on the next. Trains terminating there carried "Whitehall St." on their destination signs (there were trippers terminating there even pre-Chrystie St, before there was an "EE" train).
The IRT station: I wouldn't read too much into how the stations were indicated on those maps (circa 1958-1967). They showed West 4th St as a single station, but Jay St as two, and separate leads for the Sea Beach and West End line into Stillwell Ave. when they shared the same two-track bridge across Coney Island Creek (yes, it was two tracks until the mid-1960s, and a draw bridge, although probably not opened since the 1930s). Also, one would never figure from those maps that Hillside Ave. in Jamaica was parallel to Jamaica Ave.
-- Ed Sachs
Many Stations have Secondary and even Tertiary names. Whitehall street is one such station.
Under the current signage, they try to include designations such as Neighborhood (63rd Drive/ Rego Park, Briarwood/Van Wyck Blvd, Canal Street/ Chinatown[in chinese]) or some feature (Canal Street/ Holland Tunnel, 42nd Street/Port Authority Bus Terminal, Cortlandt Street/ World Trade Center).
I assume that there was no free transfer between the two.
The IRT has had only two stations at South Ferry. There was the four track elevated station of the Manhattan Division which had four tracks and four platforms and was served by all four of the Manhattan ELs;2,3,6 and 9th Avs.
The present day subway station is the other. This is a two track station with two side platforms. The outer loop is accesible to both West Side and East Side trains. The inner loop is accesible only to the East Side and the trains stopping at this platform require special door controls. Up until 1977 when East Side service to South Ferry ended the Bowling Green Shuttle used the inner loop as did a few #4 and 5 deadheads. The mainline trains, #5 and #6, that stopped at South Ferry used the outer loop along with the #1 trains.
There was only one token booth but separate turnstiles for each platform. While it was not listed as a free transfer point the railroad clerk would usually let you cross over when the shuttle was running. When the mainline Lexington trains were running there was no need as all services used the outer platform.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I was over at the Transit Museum (the house that Pirmann built)
and one of the maps there indicated "Whitehall Street- South Ferry"
on the Lexington Line..
( 1 ) ( 9 ) SouthFerry
02/20/2000
Sorry to correct you (1)South Ferry (9). But with all respects to David Pirmann, the Transit Museum is the house that Don Harold built !
Bill Newkirk
I happen to have a copy of the World's Fair 1964 map in front of me.
It looks like the second South Ferry is what was also called the Bowling Green Shuttle, B-U-T this map shows it as an Express stop of the Lex Ave line.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston: I have the same map in front of me. It does show two IRT stations labeled "SOUTH FERRY" (Battery Park) The one to the left is shown as a local station served by the "SOUTH FERRY" Line and the one on the right is shown as an express station on the "LEXINGTON" Line.
Both these lines are in black. There is a third station on the "VIA TUNNEL" Line which is actually the BMT Lower Broadway Line and this is labeled "WHITEHALL" (S Ferry). The two IRT stops are one and the same. In those days #5 Lexington Av Expresses served South Ferry on weekday evenings and weekends will #6 Lexington Av Locals stopped there during the midnight hours. This is why it is shown as an express stop.
This is also the map that shows two separate BMT Lines on Nassau Street. One called "NASSAU LOOP" and the other "JAMAICA." Readers will also be interested to learn that there are two separate lines under Queens Blvd. Av IND "QUEENS" Line and a BMT "FOREST HILLS" one.
That aside it actually was a very clear map
Larry,RedbirdR33
This was one of the first maps I had and therefore is quite marked up with things I saw while riding the subways.
Of interest, besides what you already mentioned are:
1. 3rd Ave remant in the Bronx just before it was tore down
2. Myrtle Ave El to Jay St. before it was gone
3. Culiver Shuttle
4. Rockaway service required "15 cents extra fare"
Mr t__:^)
This is practically identical to my 1958 map. On that it shows the Culver shuttle as a through route. The divisions are seperated by color (red=IND, green=BMT and black=IRT).
That map was in used from at least 1958 to 1966. The map part stayed the same.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I've changed the layout of the table, the letters and numbers are now split and on separate pages. That's the basic idea, the homepage and table pages will be reformatted if you people say it's a good idea. After viewing the site, take the vote here. The vote will also be available at MC.CJB.NET shortly.
I like it now better
Put it back the way it was
I couldn't care either way
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Doesn't anybody ever visit my site? Or is it just the same person over and over? You don't have to write anything in additional comments to vote, and if you don't vote, and visit the site to find a format you don't like, don't blame me!
The vote has come in, it has been, 2 to 1, decided to keep the site in it's old state with one list, however, the list will no longer be on the homepage. Polls are now closed, all votes will hereby be disregarded.
Visit: MC.CJB.NET.
I am taking a Business Trip to Hong Kong in 2 weeks. I am planning to take Videos of their Rail Systems, which there are 4 of. Their MRT(Subway) KCR (Like MetroNorth/LIRR) their LRT and their old 80 year old Double Decker Tram(Trolley System). Can anyone give me suggestions on what kind of lighting I will need for the Subway In doors, and the the Tram at Night. I am using a VCR-H Cam. Any help will be appreciated. Thank you
Very few rapid transit lines seem to open in February,but one very important one did. On February 14,1870 the West Side and Yonkers Patent Railway began service on the 9 Avenue El between Dey Street and 30 Street where it met the Hudson River Railroad. The little line was single tracked with passing siding and was cable hauled.(San Francisco eat your heart out). This made the 9 Avenue El the first rapid transit line in the city and was the start of the great IRT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Did they intend to extend it down to Yonkers?
Most rail lines of any type were seldom extended to their intended endpoint. Faced with little capital and the need to generate revenue, lines intended to be competitors often built in different areas and joined forces to create extensions. It took many years (and changes of ownership) for the Ninth Av. El to reach 145th St, without the ability to absorb and merge with other lines.
How do these door chimes get out of whack? Is it electrical or someone messing around with the chime guts?
Personally, I think there can be a possibility of restructuring the 4th Ave service during rush hour....
The M can be the West End/4th Ave Express, which the only stops after Pacific Street are as follows: 36th, 9th Ave, 62nd St and Bay Parkway.
This will involve switching B, M and N, which means that M and N will be running express, and the B running local, stopping at Dekalb, while the N will skip DeKalb.
Or it could be West End Express/4th Ave Local, preserving the N and B's express service on 4th Ave/Dekalb service.
As for the G line, I am hoping they do not cut the tracks beyond Court Square, as recently, they have been re-routing F (and possibly E) line trains through the G line to Hoyt-Schermerhorn station.
Also, in order to truly make Court Sq a true terminal, there must be a free transfer (preferably a passageway) to the #7, so that Queens Blvd customers can have an alternative....(#7 to 74th Street for E, F, R [and presumably Q and V]) service. Of course, during the summer the G could be extended to Coney Island from presumably Church Ave, but maybe on weekends only, if at all (similar scheme to the Orchard Beach summer specials).
As for the Bowling Green - South Ferry shuttle, perhaps the 5 can go to South Ferry to share with the 1 outside of rush hours (I believe this might have been done during the mid 1970s or so)...
Rush Hours #5 Flatbush - Dyre or 238/Nereid
Middays and Evenings #5 South Ferry - Dyre
Nights #5 Dyre - E 180
Now, I wonder if the 145/Lenox station on the #3 is "exit only" on the northbound side...The one time I rode it to 148/Lenox, 1 or 2 passengers got off, no one got on.... What exactly is the configuration of 145/Lenox?
Ending on a off-topic note:
Feb 12 and Feb 13 2000 will be marked as the saddest days in cartoon
history...
"Peanuts" was always the favorite comic strip of mine and the first one to be read.
Charles Schulz was, is and will always be a respected man for his fifty years of "Peanuts."
What's the point of making a train run express on the West End just to then run local on Fourth Avenue.
The No.5 Going to South Ferry will not work during Middays Because the No.1 Line runs every 5 Minutes from South Ferry to 242 Street. The No.5 Line runs 8 to 10 Minutes. Meaning the only way you can do this is the No.5 would have to arrive at South Ferry 2 Minutes after the last No.1 Train. Now Since the Train Has to take 2 Swiches the time getting a No.5 in and out would take a Min. of 4 Minutes. This can cause the No.1 Trains to get backed up. Also if a No.5 gets delayed it will throw the hole thing off.
Evenings may work when the No.5 has a 10 Minute Headway and the No.1 is about 6 to 8 Minutes. After 9PM it will work when the No.1 is at 8 Minutes apart.
At Night I think they should send the No.6 to Bowling Green or even send it to South Ferry since all Lines are 20 Minutes.
However the Biggest problem with sending a Lexington Ave train to South Ferry is the confussion.
However the Biggest problem with sending a Lexington Ave train to South Ferry is the confussion.
You mean the confusion of finding service? :-)
People might demand it 24/7, if they could cope with such a mind boggling concept during the midnight hours. What confusion and chaos that would cause NYCT, in explaining why it could not be done.
Why would it be confusing to send the 5 or 6 to South Ferry, for over 50 years there was both 7th Ave and Lexington Service to So. Ferry 24/7
But during rush hours there was always only a shuttle.
There are two problems with Lexington Ave service to South Ferry:
First Problem: if you use the inner loop then the doors dont line up and you also have the issue of moving the rooms that have been built on that platform such as employee facillities, EDR Rooms, etc.
When the platform was built they had to carve out openings for the doors. The last time this platform was used they used modified cars. And besides- Bowling Green is not that far from South Ferry!
Second Problem: if you use the outer loop (used by 1/9 trains) then you'd have switching issues which I am sure Pelham basy Dave and others would tell us will slow down the 1/9 trains.
The 1 train runs with better than average frequency and adding more trains might be a capacity issue.
Yes it would slow down the No.1 Line. The No.1 line mainly runs 5 to 6 Minutes apart during the day. Lets say we make the No.5 Train come in after the No.1 Leaves. The No.5 has the cross the switch at 10 MPH or less. I'm not sure what the posted speed sign indicates. Now thats going to take 2 Minutes tops. Now you have to allow 1 Minute for station time since lots of people will be getting on and off in the first 5 cars. That can even take 2 Minutes. Now going back over to Lex will take 2 More Minutes. It will just tie up the service. If you have a BIE that will be one big mess.
This may be able to work at Night but I don't think going to happen.
The only thing I want to see is the No.6 Line going to Bowling Green from 11:30PM to 5AM.
Thanks for the backup! The 6 to Bowling Green would work since the 5 is not running and the inner loop is used (running light)
jeyrgehiehbhexdejhjehri2ej3j3jr
ehrhg23riuhry1
145 / Lenox was exit-only Northbound the last time I was there -- but that pre-dates Metrocard.
238th Street on the 1/9 is exit-only northbound, even in the Metrocard era.
Chuck
238st has a Metrocard iron maiden. In fact, all the stations from 207st to 238st northbound on the B'way IRT have this.
-Hank
Are you sure about 238? I know that all stations from 207 - 231 had the MetroCard iron maidens. But as of about 2 or 3 months ago, 238 only had the high exit turnstiles.
Chuck
They will not cut the tracks between Court Square and Queens Plaza, only the regular revenue service.
I was at the "Transit Museum" on Wednesday afternoon and looked around in the gift shop.
For sale were some items taken from scrapped Almond Joys such as:
The "A/B" marker
Two sets of headlamps
The 60's style "SEPTA" sign that was pasted by the doors
Various interior signs such as Emergency Directions.
It was kind of sad. Less than a year ago, I may have been riding on a car with these very items I was looking at. Now they're scrap.
With those broken trucks on the M-4s, if you buy enough souvenirs, you might be able to rebuild some of the Almond Joys and sell them back to SEPTA at a profit...
hope they got good $$$$$ for the scrap metal
There's a reason why this is happening. A number of us attending the NY Division ERA Meeting on Friday Night were informed by Mark W. who is one of our SubTalk Posters, that with the permission of the SEPTA superintendent, parts were to be stripped from the Almond Joys and sold in the Transit Museum down there. Proceeds from the purchase of the car parts were to be used towards funding for 618's journey to the Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine. The money is going to something worthwhile.
What do you mean, were to be. Was this #618 supposed to go, but did not make it?
618, as far as I know, is still on the property. It's being held to the side until funding becomes available for transport of the car to Maine. That's a pretty long way to go....
-Stef
I'd better buy some of this stuff.
BUY, Buy, buy. Every sale counts. Besides, Where else can you get a brass Cineston controller handle or a RAILFAN WINDOW???!!!!
Or a small A/B sign that as of 10 minutes ago proudly sits on my desk? :) *beam* *beam* *beam*
Car 618 is also waiting for the apparent truck driver to be available (waiting for his vacation from his day job!)
When it arrives in Maine it will go on former PATH trucks that were used on the "Budd Lites" used on the Norristown line some time ago. These trucks are currently under the "Berkshire Hills" parlor car body.
We need to do some minor fabrication work also (side bearings I believe). The original MFSE trucks are coming to Maine also, as a parts supply.
I see. Is there anyway to regauge the original MFSE trucks?
-Stef
Not without totally disassembling the trucks. The trucks were fabricated for the gauge on the EL and reguaging would require many man-hours. That's why SEPTA used secondhand K car trucks (same type, wheel size, etc) for the cars temporarily assigned to the P&W.
What the heck is an Almond Joy?
www.forgotten-ny.com
From what I've gathered, I think it is some kind of train in Philly that they have recently taken out of serviceI believe it's official desigation is M-3 and it looks like an Almond joy. But I could be wrong (see the recent thread regarding M-4's)
Peace,
Andee
You are correct. They were the M-3s and had a railfan window (which I never got. The only time I took the MFL before the M-4s dominated I was in the 4th or 5th car).
The "Almond Joy" nickname comes from the two "humps" on the roof of each car, which contain air circulating devices - these two "humps" resemble the Almond Joy candy bar which contain two almonds.
Wayne
Actually, there are *four* such "humps" on each car.
To call them "Air Circulating Devices" gives them too much credit. They were huge, noisy, ugly fans that didn't work very well...
They did tend to make the cars look like someone had crossed an IRT R-14 with an R-33 train, and threw in a little bit of Budd's R-32s for good measure.
02/21/2000
Yeah, but those "Almond Joys" were is nice physical shape when scrapped. No rust and rot like the RedBirds here. Budd knew how to build them just like the RDC and long haul passenger cars of yester year. It's a shame they went belly up.
Bill Newkirk
Sometimes you feel like a nut sometimes you don't
Almond joys have nuts . . . mounds don't
I guess we can then call the M-4's "Mounds". From what I've heard of them they're mounds, all right.
Wayne
While the M4s have bigger mounds, I think they are not as ugly as those on the Almond Joys.
02/22/2000
It would have been nice if a television commercial about Peter Paul "Almond Joy" was filmed on their namesakes to justify the nickname.
Now how about a candy bar nicknamed for a NYC subway car!
Bill Newkirk
call it a "redbird" its red candy coated outside with a crumbling inside....
It's the other way around! The candy bar is the namesake! You'd have to call a subway car after an existing candy in order for it to work.
Every time I see the M-4's (and I had another chance on a short hop today) the candy bar that comes to mind is a Chunky. This reflects my candy taste, also - never my favorite, never something I'd seek out, but in a pinch it satisfies the craving.
By the way, the Budds did NOT have a railfan window - the side opposite the cab was blank. The window in the end door, however, was a nice place to play motorman and catch the breeze of the subway.
Almond Joy is the nickname the Philly fans gave to the 1960-61 Budd cars built for the Market-Frankford Subway-elevated (MFSE). The nickname was derived from the four fan humps on the roof of each car.
And man, the MFL is no fun with the new stuff. The railfan seat is ok, but doesn't beat the *openable* window and the general low tech of the old stuff.
And the "EEEeeeeEEEEEEEeeeeeEEEE" noise gets to you. fast.
Almond Joys are the collective name of Rolling Stock built to serve on the Market Frankford Line before the M4s. They are known now as M-3s, but before then, as A-51s or something like that. They were built by Budd.
so, what nickname do they have for the Broad street subway cars?
They were no "joy" to ride. Trememdous lateral vibration and jerkiness probably due to poor track maintenance and poor car construction. Hotter than hell in the summer. But they were fast and had great acceleration/deceleration and took full advantage of "gravity" design in the Market Street Subway.
These 270 cars were a political football when they were being bid by the City of Philadelphia in 1959. The issue was whether they should be built in a local Budd plant or by some other manufacturer outside of the city.
The M4s still vibrate on some parts of the line (30th to 15th). Budd PATCO cars sometimes do. But B-IVs almost never do. The m4s have really fast acceleration, faster than their predecessors.
Anyone with an update on service to Wassaic....hav'nt been up there since Oct.
still looking for updated info....on service extended to Wassiac NY
I hear the construction is well underway, from someone with a second home up there.
hi there,
a British Journal reported that PATH is going to buy new trains, install a new signalling system and start automated train operation. Finance should come via increasing the fares and gutting some 175 jobs (guards etc.). Does anyone of you living nearer by the system concerned know anything about that? I would very much appreciate any comments (and if it would be, how silly a question I submitted).
Thanks very much.
Cheers, Frank from Mannheim, Germany
Why would a British journal be reporting about new cars for the PATH??? I haven't heard anything about the PATH getting new cars, but who knows? I wonder how much the fares would have to be raised?
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
02/21/2000
If that is in the works, I'm sure the unions would howl at the suggestion. Is PATH still considered at FRA regulated railroad?
Bill Newkirk
>>>"is PATH still considered an FRA railroad?...<<<
Yes, I believe it is
Peace,
Andee
Is MetroCard coming to PATH?
Despite popular demand, i have returned. ( credit to
david cole for my opening sentence )
as a result of an flamingly titled post that i made
on thursday morning, which was rightly removed from
the board, i sentenced myself to refrain from
posting at subtalk through this weekend--- as an
additional punishment, i sentenced myself to read
the entire thread of "do any subtalkers like
hillary" as well as "what do you think of
conservatives"----- unfortunately i became
increasingly nauseated as i read the thread, and
could only read my way through half of each
thread---i have shortened my sentence by 3 hours as
time off for punishment beyond the scope of my
original offense
while off this message board, i have been investigating a sinister plot to disrupt salaam allah's filming of the canarsie line--- i got wind of a plot to station troublemakers at union square station, each of whom would be armed with 5 cream pies--- when the train bearing salaam at the railfan window approached the station, these anti railfan window troublemakers would throw their whip cream pies at the railfan window, thus making filming impossible-- i brought this plot to the attention of my personal lawyer, mr. algonquin j. calhoun, who after checking mta regulations, discovered that it is illegal to throw whip cream pies at the railfan window of a train--- at this moment restraining orders are being served on the members of this group
again i regret having made that flamingly titled post--- i will try to limit my future postings to subjects of no particular interest to people on this message board---
RIGHT ON HEYPAUL !!!!!!! I HOPE THOSE ANTI-RAILFAN-WINDOW-INDUSTRY-TYPES..............
will fail they wont get not one cream pie off!! we have THE NEW YORK TRANSIT POLICE
looking out for these anti welfare royal island "" pigs who like to throw pies at the railfan window types "" !!!!!!!!
i already have REQUESTS TO VIDIEOTAPE THE CANARSIE LINE PLUS THE ""J"" LINE
how about that anti-welfare anti- RAILFAN-WINDOW-INC..??????
now hey are GETTTING MAD ( ""heypaul"" ) imagine that these folks wanted SO BAD to get me !!
well these plots will fail 100% see you in new york the first week of march .... especially pigs....etc....
SEE YOU IN THE "" L "" LINE FORMERLY THE ""LL""..........!!!!!!!!
"
Hey! I'm not anti-railfan window! I support your efforts to film from the front of trains, as such a view will soon become scarce and eventually nonexistent.
Lets hope he does the whole Southern Division someday before it is too late. Stopped my Tape at Hoyt/Sch"merhorn for a while.
Welcome back, "heypaul"!
As a participant in the "Hillary" thread, I can say that anybody who fully reads through BOTH the "Hillary" and "Conservative" threads will then want to tie the threads together and hang him/herself. You subjected yourself to cruel and unusual punishment - you should sue yourself for that.
what???
ah---- mr. marshall of the gotham bus company--- you honor me with your kind words--- if i become an executive at the gotham bus company, i want my good friend ralph to rest assured that he will be a bus driver for the rest of his life---
since my first posting about the plot to throw pies at the railfan window, i have discovered that the sinister force behind this malevolent plot is none other than professor moriarity, known on this message board as professor pigiarity--- i look forward to travelling with salaam and once and for all eliminating the snout of this evil force that has been a scourge to all mankind, both railfan window and non railfan window enthusiasts
I will not stand idly by as you drag my good name through the mud! Instead I will lie down and enjoy myself since as a pig I like mud.
at last--- the moment i have been waiting for the
last 5 years--- it IS professor pigiarity--- the
swine who i invited into my home when he was a
broken swine--- the swine who ran off with my wife
mary and sweet child louis--- now the pent up fury
inside of me builds--- slooooowly i turn--- step by
step--- inch by inch--- until i come upon you
wallowing in the filth that befits your type---
don't think that you are going to slip away from my
murderous hands like you did at Niagara Falls----
DID I JUST SAY
NIAGARA FALLS??
I have never been in your home, that can be conclusively proven, nor have I ever met your alleged wife and children. I will continue to elude you and your delusions, for if our paths are to cross, there will surely be confrontation. I have many comrades within my species which humans so callously call inferior, like all others, who are quite angry at the humans for centuries of mistreatment. Their anger will prove to be beneficial for fierce battle.
THE REVOLUTION IS COMING!
THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED!
I propose that henchforth and forevermore heypaul and Professor Pigiarity be proclaimed OFFICAL SubTalk COMEDY TROUP.
(Remember, Professor, that Porky Pig has given all of us much joy over the many years.)
Th-Th-that's All Folks!!!!
Welcome back, heypaul - you really waded through that entire thread?
Oh dear, that is an awful penance, worse even than riding the "D" train back and forth from 125th to 59th.
wayne
>>>...worse even than riding the "D" train back and forth from 125th to 59th.<<<
Yeah....but I bet it didn't take as long to read the thread. (Poor attempt at an R-68 joke)
Peace,
Andee
The contempt of the denizenry of this board towards the R-68 is reminiscent of the contempt of evil humankind towards the beautiful animals of the suidae family.
Worse even than that is to have to ride in a hot-to-trot R38 "A" train behind one of them. Any "D" train at 145th Street should be made to yield to any "A" train on the upper level. I was riding #4040 on the "A" once and the "D" got ahead of us at 145th Street - the T/O was itching to run but he was stymied by the orange bullet sign loping along just a few signals ahead. We never made it above 35.
Pleasant to behold, smooth ride, nice and quiet, good capacity, well lighted - all positive qualities. Just keep them out of the way of the jackrabbits (i.e. R38 "A"s, R40 "Q"s and "N"s).
They should ALL get Black Floors too.
Wayne
Whipped cream, eh? I thought they told me to go find Chocolate Cream with graham-cracker crust as well as Banana Cream and Blueberry.
Does anyone here remember what happened in "The Great Race?"
wayne :o>
hey wayne--- you're not trying to get me unhinged again by mentioning "The Great Race"--- you're not trying to play the race card here--- you start talking race and you'll cause the sarge to start dreaming about saratoga racetrack
riding the d train between 59th street and 125th street is a pleasure--- reading the 70 odd "do subtalkers like hillary" posts is a torture
Right on Paul, remember the D is part Brighton, it could be worse like riding the N Local between 59th St Bklyn and Lexington Ave Manhatten, which is Sea Beach Freds Favorite portion
ok !!!
I was merely dreaming of the 3 minute and 22 second Pie Fight in the Pastillier's in which 529 pies, cakes, pastries, cream puffs, tarts and other assorted goodies bit the dust. Poor Peter Falk! He got hit with no less than five pies all at once, from different directions.
Wayne
Welcome Back!
The "couch gag" on tonight's "Simpsons" episode involved the subway.
The couch, instead of being in the living room, was in a subway station, "Evergreen Terrace". You can see edge of the platform right in front of the couch as the Simpson family run to it.
Then, a "train" (actually, when it leaves, you see that it is only one car) pulls in, they get on, and it leaves.
The station name was shown on the wall in tiling. There was a big, wide rectangular border of many-hued blues which surrounded a white space. In this white space, "Evergreen Terrace" was written in letters made up of small tiles that seem to be of a vaguely reddish color. (Sorry, that's the best that my 1983 television working in tandem with my 2-head 1991 VCR will let me do.)
Damn, eastern Queens (where I grew up) never got a subway, but SPRINGFIELD gets one?!?!?!
Ferdinand Cesarano
Springfield has been in desperate need of a subway since the demise of it's short lived monorail.
In myyyyyy day we rode spark buggies, which ran downtown on the public streets. On tracks they did! And sometimes on the grass and in the woods. Only cost a Jefferson nickle too! Heyyyyyy, why does my typewriter have a TV set on it and why isn't Regis Philbein on? Nurse! Nurse!
Its had a subway. Remember when Bart lost his soul and he had to get to Millhouse's gandparents' house at like 240th St. Well after his bike got mangled by the street sweeper he tried the subway, but the street sweeper swerved and went down the staircase and blew up, putting the subway out of action.
Don't forget, the subway also ate Ned Flanders' hat. I forget which episode that was.
Well that little remark came in one of Homer's imagineation sequences when he was thinking about what life would be like on worker's comp. So I don't think it can be fully trusted.
has anyone seen my pills?? i think i left them on the Los Angeles train thingy thing. Y'know. It's red! No, the pills are red!
Are you folks still arguing with the Los Angeles feller?? I see his CAPS LOCK thing is stuck! Oh, what do ya call that darn button. I can't even see it.... oh here IT IS !!!
I have to go now.
has anyone seen my pills?? i think i left them on the Los Angeles train thingy thing. Y'know. It's red! No, the pills are red!
Are you folks still arguing with the Los Angeles feller?? I see his CAPS LOCK thing is stuck! Oh, what do ya call that darn button. I can't even see it.... oh here IT IS !!!
I have to go now.
You aren't the only one who is upset about the lack of subways in Queens.
Actually, the people who don't want subways in Queens have more influence than those who do.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The Simpsons rode the subway in Springfield, but they didn't when they visited New York?!?! Aaarrrgh!
Yes they did. There was a funny scene with Bart panhandling with a pathetic story.
I loved that episode. When the bus finally entered Manhattan Marge uttered the now famous quote:
"Wow, New York is chock full of monuments and tourist attractions. Look kids, 4th Avenue, the Williamsburgh Bridge, and Governor's Island!"
In fact, Marge's obsession with Governors Island is a running joke throughout the show.
Would/Could/Has anybody here lick a part of the subway interior to prove that they can't taste and therefore get money?
What's the joke?
Marge is obsessed with the wonders of Governors Island, and keeps saying so throughout the show. The joke is that Marge is obsessed with the boring aspects of NYC and not the typical ones that would fascinate tourists (like say Ellis Island, or Liberty Island). That was the joke when she stated "Look, the Williamsburgh Bridge. 4th Avenue. Governors Island!". Wouldn't a normal tourist say "Look, Park Avenue. the Brooklyn Bridge. Ellis Island!"?
Reminiscent of an IKEA commercial where they interior-decorated a Subway car. I want that on video.
How long would that last in normal service. Rough guess.
Did you see "Futurama" at 7pm?
They visited the subway of the 20th century in the 30th century.
They paid a visit to LXIIth St Station(or 42nd St in Roman numerals as they were sure to show later) and called subway cars "mobile apartments with no rent".
Hmmm... Mat Groenig must be hanging out with David Cole of the nth Ward.
Peace,
Andee
ERROR
That's XLII, not LXII.
Up to now all R40 trains you see them on the Q the reason that the R68 are given to the B is because the Q designation circle on all R68 were yellow now B trains have R68 and Q R40-42,but still I seen some R68 B trains with yellow designation circle, and some D trains of R68 are still yellow but its showing alot of orange circles now.But all B, D, and Q trains are in orange
The car assignments have nothing to do with the colors of the route letters on the roll signs. They have to do with maintenance requirements. The idea was to get the Southern Division R-40s off the road on weekends (of course, they can be seen on the B and N on weekends).
David
There is one, maybe two Slant R40 "B"s as well as several "N"s out on the weekends. At least two, maybe three "L"s of Slants operate on weekends as well. The "L" has six consists of Slant R40.
Wayne
Actually, the primary reason the R40's were swapped from the B to the Q was to have the B fleet made up of cars with transverse cabs for OPTO service on the Wext End shuttle. The resting of the older R40's on weekends was a side benefit.
Thanks. I knew there was another reason, but I couldn't remember what it was.
However, it isn't necessary to swap 38 trainsets (or thereabouts) just to have 4 or so available for an OPTO shuttle.
David
True, but it makes operations easier not having to make sure those cars that are needed are in the right place at the right time. Any B train can be used as an OPTO line if the entire fleet is R68.
No. The B Trains used for OPTO are only 4 cars in length. The OPTO trains aren't used any other time except for the Shuttle. They are laid up in the Coney Island/Avenue X Yard during the day.
are the OPTO cars the same cars that they use during the day on the "B" line?(i mean, the main reason that I thought the R68 were removed from the "Q" to the "B" becasue it was easier to move OPTO trains to to the same line. Does the "B" at night use R46,R44 or the same R68 cars?
They use 4 four-car R68/R68A trains for the late night shuttle.
do they stop on the 6 car sign
I don't think so. Maybe the OPTO S sign. I'm not sure.
Are you sure? Why would they have dedicated equipment for the B shuttle?
Probably because they don't want to use full length trains for a shuttle at late night. And I doubt they want to be uncoupling the those everyday and putting them back together 6 hours later.
It's not hard to uncouple trains at night (only 2 sets of 4 cars are really needed), then re-couple them again in the morning. I find it hard to believe that the TA lets 16 perfectly useful R68's sit in the yard all day just to avoid that.
Then again, the MTA lets 20 perfectly good R62A's sit in the yard all day Saturday and Sunday instead of giving 20 Redbirds some much-needed rest. The MTA operations department does some very baffling things.
you know something i have ever seen a #1 train in redbirds.
I think he's talking about the #6 line R62As.
Wayne
They use 4 Trains each with 4 cars in the consist.
4 x 4 = 16. That's what I said.
i miss when the R42's ran on the "Q"(i also remember haveing R42 on the "D" line). Why dodnt they just put a bulk of the R42 off the "L" and "M" and make the "Q" all R42? It makes safer sense because of the gats between the even cars.
Nah, I like the R40s on the Q Line. I'd like it even better if the line had R68As too. (Waiting for bashing.) I think the gaps in between cars is the same because they were built to the same dimensions. Except for the slant part, but that doesn't effect the floor.
Yes it does. The storm door is at the level of the top of the slant, which is set back from the end, making a longer sill and therefore a much longer passage.
BRING BACK THE R-68!
simon "Q" Rider was talking the about the gaps in between the cars.
Those are the only gaps that I know of. I have no idea what he's talking about.
Lets ask simon "Q" Rider!
what i mean by gaps is the slant design used on the r40 models(i like the r42 better)
You see, I was right!
Damn! Next time... next time...
a few years ago I saw an R42 leading a B train of R40slants
it funny that i have never seen a M train of R68 cars
i bet u that they will come there when the R143's come in next year
Nope, the M is scheduled to get the excess R143's that the L doesn't need. The L only needs about 160 cars and 212 are on order.
Nor will you ever. 75' cars (R44-68) are banned from the BMt Eastern Division (J, M and L lines) because of clearance problems.
Where, I know the J has a problem at 75th st - Crescent St Turns,
the L has similar problems at Grand St - Montrose ave Where else
With the J line, it's the Crescent St. S curve. With the M line, it's the S curve just as the line diverges from the J at Myrtle/Bway. there isn't enough clearance for 2 75' trains to pass each other in both directions on this curve without a collision.
so why not just put in a signal to stop on train from going into the area if another is in it in the opposit directon.
Yeah, just what that awful grade crossing needs, another signal it must obey. That would make this intersection an even bigger bottlneck.
Especially since the most efficient way to schedule service where there is a diverging route at grade is to have two trains in opposite directions pass each other at the swich - that way, the train crossing "oncoming" trafic does not block trafic headed in the opposite direction.
subfan
The southbound "M" should be forced to yield to northbound until the last car of northbound clears the second curve. It won't cause THAT much of a bottleneck there; its headway isn't that great and not every train would be affected by this.
Wayne
Obviously you don't use this train much. During rush hours a signal doing that would slow down this line even more.
No. Not the Myrtle Avenue turn. Someone this site posted a picture of a R44/R46 along M Line north of Myrtle.
A 75' car can make the turn; the problem is that if two 75-footers passed each other in opposite directions, the overhang is such that they would hit each other. One train at a time, they can make the turn no problem.
subfan
I also have heard (am not sure), that the Crescent Street curves are so sharp, that the train would just get stuck, it'll keep forcing itself until either the wheels or the rails break.
Citybound entering Crescent - YES. Plus the turning car might clip the building adjacent. Queens-bound leaving Crescent - probably NOT - the radius is greater since it's on the outside of the curve. Entering/leaving Cypress Hills - probably NOT - there is clearance on the inside where the gap between the tracks exists. Not sure of the radius there Queens-bound; that is on the tight side. Perhaps just a bit too tight for 75-footers. Odd, the 75-foot cars negotiate the S curve north of Cortlandt Street without a problem other than an enforced 5MPH speed limit.
Wayne
Could a 60 foot car pass a 75 foot car?
75' cars can clear this curve. But 2 75' cars passing in opposite directions cannot use this s-curve at the same time. There's a clearance problem.
AND many of the stations are too short to hold an eight-car train of 75-foot cars; i.e. the 540-foot "L" line platforms.
Curves on the "L" that are too sharp: just east of Graham; between Montrose and Morgan and I think the curve just out of Jefferson has a prohibitive radius as well although only a 45-degree angle. It is quite abrupt.
Wayne
It was quite managable by the 67' standards. Barely, I guess.
Chris, you need to look at more than the length of the car. The min. turn radius is determined by the truck center distance. On R-46 it's 54' while on the 60' car it's 44'7". Therefore, you would think that the truck center dimension for a 67' car would be around 49'. I believe, however, that the dimension on the standards was 46' or 47', making curve negotiation easier.
IIRC, the distance between trucks on the BMT standards was 47 feet, center to center.
I think this isn't possible. Especially a train that was in service.
It is possible - the couplers are compatible, and mechanically, the R-40 is identical to the R-40M, with which the R-42 regularly runs in revenue service. TA policy, though, is to only run the R-40s in solid units in revenue service. I know, though, that they are sometimes linked with other classes for yard moves - I once saw a consist of 10 (I think) R-40's signed up as the Q with two R-32's with an X on there flip-dot signs tacked on at the end pass through the 7th Ave. (Manhattan) station headed toward Coney Island in a non-revenue move (though what those R-40's were doing in upper Manhattan is beyond me).
subfan
A few years before the B/Q fleet change I saw this.
B trains run on R68As with a few R68s.
Q run on R40 slants only, from what I have seen.
i don't know why in the box of changes did the map creater put the Q circle yellow instead of orange, he couldn't done it on purpose.
I have this map. I'm not entirely sure myself but the service change must have been for a Q shuttle heading to Broadway. Not sure though.
That was the map that showed the return of full Manhattan Bridge service. Perhaps that had something to do with it. From 9/30 to 12/28 the N ran express from 34th in Manhattan to 59th in Brooklyn before the tracks got shut down yet again.
02/20/2000
I spotted the now out of service LIRR prototype C-1 Bi-Levels, AKA "BI-TANIC", by the Hillside Facility parked with FL-9 #302 3 days ago.
There were 6 coaches, but 2 days earlier, I passed them and saw graffitti on the last car by the last door panel. Graffitti seems to be removed or car was uncoupled. FL-9 #302 was facing east.
These cars are now up for sale. Any SubTalkers out there want to purchase one since no railroad in their right mind will purchase these purple elephants. Make it a residence, never needs painting!. Remove all the seats and make them a mini bowling alley, duplex theater, health spa! Yes, waterproof lower level and make it an enormous jacuzzi! The ideas are limitless!
How about a model train club with layouts on both levels. What are your ideas while I'm looking for my checkbook?
Bill Newkirk
I like the model RR idea. We could put the subway modelers downstairs and the el modelers upstairs. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Frtom what i know based on a news story about New Jersey Transit wanting a fleet of bilevels and from my volunteer group they have or are going to be purchased by New Jersey Transit
02/21/2000
Are sure NJ Transit wants them? Let's not forget the have no door traps for low level platforms, so they would be restricted to Trenton Localsm (example). I know NJ Transit is looking into their own Bi-level acquisition, that means if they purchase the C-1's, they would have to produce an expanded fleet based on that design. Also, who knows if the electrical systems line up with the NJ Transit standard? The LIRR doesn't want them because their electrical system isn't compatible with the C-3's, so rebuilding them to be compatible isn't cost effective.
Bill Newkirk
Well the article said that they are buying a flee of prototype bilevels that have already been used. Sounds like the C1-s and why are there old LIRR single level cars at Belmont Park
awaiting the scrap cutter
Perhaps the article was implying that NJT is buying a type of car in use elsewhere such as Boston MBTA, or Maryland MARC? I doubt if they'll go for the Toronto/Los Angeles/Miami/Vancouver/Altamont style Bombardier cars as the catenary clearance might pose a problem there.
As for the second part of your question, those cars are "awaiting disposition". That could mean a new owner (lotsa luck to them...) or a torch used to cut the cars up (probably worth more there....)
They must be put on the Franklin Ave shuttle or the Rockaway Park Shuttle as all orphans have gone in the past . NJtransit must wait.
Are these the same bi-levels on the Oyster Bay line? Does that mean that these are no longer in service and only prototypes? Or are the C-1 cars entirely different?
Michael
No, they look the same but they are different. These were the prototype dual modes that were on the Port Jeff-to Penn trains with the red/white/blue conventional looking locomotives on both ends.
02/22/2000
Michael B,
The C-1's are numbered #3001-3010, with no controkl cab cars.
The C-3's are numbered in the 4000's with control cab cars in the 5000's.
The bodies look almost identical with some small differences. The interior seating is 3-2 on the C-1's and 2-2 on the C-3's. Complaints on the cramped seating was the outcry, hence the 2-2 seating design. The handicapped bathrooms are different and station annunciator signs outside the car bodies near the ends are on the C-3's only. The biggest goof is that the electrical systems on the C-1 and C-3 are totally different, so they are not compatible with each other. That's why the LIRR won't modify them to operate with the C-3's. Not cost effective, so they're up for sale.
Bill Newkirk
Another rumor i heard was that Metro North wanted them for a time
02/20/2000
A new green student pass was giveen to me today by a friend. This is the one that's titled "Good for two trips". While the fronts and green colors are identical to the older ones, the differences are on the reverse side. The large "S" is still the same, however......
Wording under exp. date and serial numbers.
OLD - "Only valid for student named above, subject to applicable terms and conditions of use".
NEW - "Subject to applicable terms and conditions. Only valid for student named above on days when student's school is in session".
Under the large "S" is a number 05-30-1100, which the older ones didn't have. BE ON THE LOOKOUT !!!
Bill Newkirk
I have my old student Metrocard from last semester, it's worn, worse preserved than all the others, which I foolishly lost.
EXPIRES 02/09/00
0238908126 407711
Subject to spplicable terms and conditions. Name (print)
Only valid for student named above on days when student's school is in session.
Student Transportation
Valid Monday to Friday,
5:30 a.m. until 8:30 p.m.
Grades 7-12
S
05-30-1014
That's how all of them look from this year, but last year's was different.
Clark Palicka
02/21/2000
Royal Islander,
The kicker was that 8 digit number underneath the large "S" which was the giveaway, the older ones didn't have that. Just a friendly alert to all those Metrocard collectors out there !!
Bill Newkirk
Yeah, I just noticed the same differences!!! They added the "only when school is in session" beacause too many people would use it during vacation etc...
Clark Palicka
So what if school is in session and you're not going?
During my 11 day late January vacation, I got to ride around for free. Now, mid February 9 day vacation I have to pay. I'd also have to pay if I did any riding during the 10 day Christmas Vacation.
Isn't it ironic that the longest vacation is the unofficial one?
It was my understanding (at least, when I was a student) that the pass was valid during this week because they planned special activities.
-Hank
You can still use your student pass during the vacations (except summer), you're just not supposed to. It will work, but if they catch you with it, they'll take it away.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
Click the image to go to TrAnSiTiNfO's homepage
They don't take it away, if it's a bus driver, they just won't let you on. If it's a police officer, you'll be given a $60 fine.
I think most of you missed the point of Bills post:
He's talking about a change in the "Class Trip" card vs. 1/2 fare green card (K-12) or free green card (7-12).
The latter two used to say the semister, i.e. Fall 1997.
Of the "Good for Two Trips" cards I have, several "Only ..." expired in 1999 and the "Subject ..." expire in 2000.
P.S. The three orange ones I have all have "05-30-1012", so I suspect there was a previous version.
P.P.S. I understand there's a red one, but I don't have an example.
Mr t__:^)
Well, I see that the rumors of heypaul's demise was greatly exaggerated.
Too bad, as my fellow detectives on this case, Frank Pembleton and Tim Bayliss were looking forward to a fun day of interrogating some of the suspects (Wayne-SlantR40, Mark W., Doug aka BMTman, Thurston) in the Heypaul Impersonation Case. They just don't have a good day unless they break a man down to the point he'd confess to the murder of a fruit fly.
Sincerely railfan regards,
Det. John Munch
CCD, NYPD
let's give thanks that the powers at the mta, who
are often mocked at this site, have not become
fixated, as many of us here have, on frankfurters,
oil burners, conservatives, pay toilets, and
hillary--- the mta is providing reliable safe
saturday service to all new yorkers seeking
transport--- i would like to wash my hands of some
of these threads, but i can't seem to find a
restroom---
i received a message on my subtalker wireless decoder ring that salaam will be in the city next monday and tuesday--- he hopes to meet with all sane subtalkers, and i am currently making up a questionaire designed to weed out those with marginal connections to reality--- i hope to post this questionaire later today and will request interested subtalkers to e-mail their responses---
one very interesting thing--- salaam said he will film the path line--- i suggested filming out of the left side passenger window--- i have always been fascinated and frequently made anxious by how close the walls of the tunnel seem to be....
>>>...he hopes to meet with all sane subtalkers, ...<<<
I do not think there are any. (myself included)
Peace,
Andee
>>>he hopes to meet with all sane subtalkers<<<
Sane subtalkers?
"he hopes to meet with all sane subtalkers"
I thought he was meeting with you.
What are you implying, sir?
-Hank :)
Does anyone have information on the availability/use of internet terminals in subway stations for the travelling public? The proposed terminals would be used to post system route maps etc, but would also allow the customer to swipe their charge card and access their e-mail and any other sites, excluding pornography.
>>>>Does anyone have information on the availability/use of internet terminals in subway stations for the
travelling public? The proposed terminals would be used to post system route maps etc, but would also
allow the customer to swipe their charge card and access their e-mail and any other sites, excluding
pornography. <<<
Sounds like a good idea. But you'd have to surround them with security of some kind, because our young people would make quick work of them (witness the fact that they can't even get the escalators to work at Main St.--they keep getting sabotaged).
www.forgotten-ny.com
kevin--- your response to judy's question seems a
little grim---- i am thinking of the metrocard
vending machines---- have those machines been
subject to vandalism?---- have there been any
criminal acts against people using a machine?---- i
wasn't aware of plans for internet terminals--- it
would seem that they could be placed nearby the
metrocard machines----
on the light side--- i am not sure if the new subway cars will have digital message boards to announce stations stops--- if they do---- judy, how would you feel about an internet terminal in the cars that would display your e-mail on the message board between station stop announcements?--- something like that might engender a greater sense of community amongst fellow customers--- suppose a woman receives an e-mail breaking off a relationship with a boyfriend--- the other customers in the train would read it and be able to give you consolation over the loss or support over the good of being rid of such a creep.....
In the movie total recall there were video monitors in the train that Arnold was in,or was that only on Mars ? hey it's a start....
[The proposed terminals would be used to post system route maps etc, but
would also allow the customer to swipe their charge card and access
their e-mail and any other sites, excluding pornography.]
Excluding pornography???? Oh, good grief, I was expecting to see some naked bodies online in the subway. This is an outrage! I see I'll have to get Mark Green on the phone (or maybe Larry Flynt).
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE E-MAIL!
I doubt we'll see anything of the sort in the subway, but an internet terminal was recently installed at Hoboken Terminal.
I saw the guy setting it up, and he gave me five free minutes online. I got through to SubTalk on it and was about to post a message from there when my time ran out. This was in December, I think.
As for filtering pornography, I didn't try to access any such sites, but I doubt any such filters were in place. I suppose commercial porn sites could be blocked by using the PICS ratings, but I would hate to see any of the active "filtering" programs used. They are notorious for blocking out far more than just porn, sites dealing with breast cancer being just one obvious eample.
Thank you for the responses to my research question. I am viewing this issue from a security perspective, as I am certainly aware of the attraction/loitering of kids and perverts to the transit system. We work hard to discourage disorderly behaviour and I'm worried that the internet terminals will frustrate our security initiatives.
Is DeKalb the only double platform station that also has express tracks which skip it? Why did they set it up that way?
The setup at DeKalb Ave is a result of plans changing in the middle of construction.
DeKalb Ave station, the 4th Ave. (Brooklyn) subway, and the tracks across the Manhattan Bridge were part of the Triborough system which started construction around 1910. A few years later, the Dual-Contracts system came along, and changes were made to the already under-construction lines. This resulted in some unfinished, never used stations, such as the lower level of City Hall, and the strange configuration at DeKalb Ave.
Under the Triborough system plan, there was no Montague St. tunnel, nor a connection to the Brighton line under Flatbush Ave., just a 4 track subway under 4th Ave. in Brooklyn connecting to the Manhattan Bridge. DeKalb Ave. was to have been a local station, with express tracks down the center and two side platforms. By the time the plans changed, it had already been partially constructed, and rather than rip it all out and start over, it was decided just to add the two extra tracks on the outside and make two island platforms.
-- Ed Sachs
Speaking of the Fourth Avenue line . . . did you notice that the ceiling is higher than on the rest of the system? This is also Triborough at work – from the ceiling to the top of the rail ties, the distance is 15’, as opposed to 13’ 2” which was settled on after the Dual Contracts (and also used on most of the IND)*. So it is in this little detail that I could tell, based upon the historical context, that the Fourth Avenue line was built before the other Dual Contracts routes.
* - The 1904 IRT routes, from ceiling to top of rail ties, stood at 12’ 10”.
02/22/2000
The higher ceiling on the 4th Ave (Brooklyn) subway was for the benefit of the wooden "el" cars that sat higher. Movements from the Eastern Division to Coney Island was one purpose. Also the ceilings ahre higher on the Center Street subway too, but not Nassau Street subway. Again because because of the "el" car roofs. Remember when they lowered the roof of the Q-types? Because of clearances.
Bill Newkirk
There was a post before that the Manhattan Bridge was to run a BMT line across Canal Street to New Jersey, an elevated line connecting to a Centre Street El and the IRT. I don't remember what the plans for the IRT were.
Without Montague, how was the Broadway line to be layed out.
I hear the Centre Street Subway was originally planed for NY Railways (trolleys) how was that to work?
IIRC, the Broadway subway wasn't a part of the TriBoro plan as the 4th Ave subway was. The original plan had the Lexington Ave. subway running south to Whitehall and on to Brooklyn. When the IRT was awarded the Lexington Ave. line, they terminated construction on the section south of 42nd St. and connected the section north to the Contract 1 subway line. The original BRT Broadway subway was designed to have the locals terminate at City Hall (lower level) while the expresses went via Montague St. to Brooklyn. This plan was designed after the 4th Ave. subway was given to the BRT and the Canal St. subway was cancelled.
The original Broadway line plan was to have locals terminate at City Hall _Upper_Level_, not lower level, where the express was suposed to go - when they changed plans in mid-stream, they had to construct a ramp down from the upper level to the lower level trackway so that the local could continue to Brooklyn; that's why the tracks slant down from City Hall to Cortland Street.
subfan
correct. I sill have that darn dislexia.
I don't get it, what was to happen to the Broadway line? Wasn't Montague not originally planned for the BMT? And what tunnel would the full Lex trains use and where would they connect. Who would run this? How does the lower level at Nevins fit into this?
It was all very confusing, with everyone making contingency plans for lines they later never ran on. The lower level at Nevins, IIRC was supposed to allow IRT service to access 4th Ave. The original plan for 4th Ave. was for a 4 track line with 2 tracks running along Canal St to the Hudson River and 2 tracks going to Chambers via the Manny B. Where the express trains that would've served the Montague St. tunnel would have gone is a mystery. Perhaps they'd have connected to the Fulton St. el or Brighton line.
I think your current question emphasizes the confusion and the haste in building the subway system 90-some years ago.
After the success of the original subway, there was considerable movement to build more subways. So the early plans were done without all of the stonewalling that goes on now. It is almost amazing by today's standards to see how many subway miles got built in those days of significantly more sweat and considerably less technology. The 7 or so miles of the Original Brooklyn Bridge to 137th Street IRT routing was built in about 4 years from 1900. The 8th Avenue IND Subway from 207th to Chambers was started in 1925, built and opened in just about 7 years. I believe that they are talking about more than 10 years now for the 2.5 mile two-track "Stubway" and some of that is already built.
Anyway, the Lower Level Nevins Street Station was an afterthought, it stopped work in April 1905 for a 6-month replan to add the provisions for the Manhattan Bridge Extension and the Lafayette Avenue Subway. As we all know, the Manhattan Bridge segment ended up as BRT (then BMT) and the Lafayette Avenue subway got built as part of the IND system almost 27 years later. The Nevins Street 5-track layout (the center track was removed in the 1950's) was also a result of this quick change, as the Brooklyn IRT became a four-track line instead of the two and three track lines that was actualy built as constructon started in 1902.
Also in this 1905 IRT plan was provision to 4th Avenue Subway and a connection to the LIRR. Also, as we know, the 4th Avenue routing went to the BRT some 5-7 years later, and the actual use of the IRT-LIRR connection has been a legend for years.
The Lexington Avenue Line Joralemon Street Tunnel was a "Contract 2"
(not Dual Contract) Subway Line for which construction started in 1902, so one can assume that this was always the basic plan for the Lex. However, the 7th Avenue Clark Street tunnel construction did not start for another 12 years or so after the 1905 IRT provision was built. Several possible routes were debated in the interim, one of which may have been the Montague Street routing. However, after the BRT thought that there would be profit in the Manhattan subway, they sought for some routes and were awarded the Montague route. The physical closeness of the IRT and BRT lines in Manhattan further reflect this confusion and competition between the two private companies.
02/22/2000
Wasn't the now abandoned Myrtle Avenue station supposed to be called Gold Street and tie in with lower level Nevins Street ?
Bill Newkirk
The 1908 proposals called for a Tillary-Johnson Sts Station which was to be a five track station with two side platforms at the Brooklyn end of the Manhattan Bridge. There was also suppossed to be a loop at the west end of the station for returning trains back to Brooklyn. I understand that the only part of the loop ever built was the wall pockets. In 1910 plans were changed and the staton was moved to the intersection of Myrtle Avenue and Gold Streets and was referred to as Gold Street. However by 1916 the name was changed to Myrtle Avenue although the station retained a gold trim.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Does anyone have a photo of the abandoned Myrtle Ave. station when it was still in service?
subfan
I have always wondered why this site doesn't have a history about this station or any mention of it.
It's fully covered in Joe Brennan's guide. If I had more information to add, then I would, but Joe covers it pretty well.
-Dave
Dave,
Do you have any photos? Thank you.
subfan
No, can't say I do... sorry.
Dave
DeKalb Ave station, the 4th Ave. (Brooklyn) subway, and the tracks across the Manhattan Bridge were part of the Triborough system which started construction around 1910. A few years later, the Dual-Contracts system came along, and changes were made to the already under-construction lines. This resulted in some unfinished, never used stations, such as the lower level of City Hall, and the strange configuration at DeKalb Ave.
You can see a Public Service Commission publication about the Triborough System (including a map) at
http://www.bmt-lines.com/psccvr.html
Those are nice photos of Grand Central as it originally looked, as well as the view down Delancey St. with what appears to be the 3rd Ave. el in the background above Bowery.
It could be the Second Avenue El down Allen depending on the direction of the view.
Not really. Nevins St, on the Brooklyn IRT has a single express trackway, which no longer has a track in it. Does anyone know of any service that ever used this trackway?
Chris: The original design for the Contract II Brooklyn Line called for a two and three track subway. Prior to the start of service these plans were redrawn for a four track subway. This involved a considerable degree of reconstruction and at Nevins Street it was easier to simply add the two addition tracks to the outside of the existing three tracks and two side platforms. The center track was used for layup and storage until it was removed.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I thought there were originally side platforms, with the outer tracks added on only when they decided to do the Seventh Avenue Line.
The original plans called for a three track station with two side platforms. The center track was to be used for storage. The folks in Brooklyn demanded a four track railroad just like the one they had in Manhattan so it was necessary to make many changes to the plan. BY the time the 7 Avenue IRT showed up the four track subway was already in place.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Woodhaven Blvd. station in queens has a hidden platform behind the walls, wittness the cutouts before and after the station. It was designed for possible use as an express stop but has not been deemed or thought about since the first opening. Perhaps the 63rd st tunnel and the new connection at 36th St. will be food for thought.It might ease crowding at Roosevelt Ave. Comments , critisisms , rebuttal ?
This is not Lexington Avenue. Behind the walls of the platform there is earth. One would have to dig to convert this station.
Correct, found the weep holes this A.M. So let's dig!
Can anyone tell me how new subway car types are allocated a type classification i.e. why were R110 and R142s so classified? It strikes me that the latest types have jumped far ahead the numbering list leaving many unused numbers.
"R" Numbers are contract numbers, the "R" means revenue.
Originally "R" numbers were only assigned to purchases made for use in revenue service. But, over the years the TA has used the "R" numbers for virtually all contracts involving RTO purchases hence the accelaration of the numbers.
Peace,
Andee
R110A and R110B are also known respectively as R130 and R131.
Wayne
Paul:
Go to: www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/rroster.htm for a complete listing of all R contract numbers.
passing on the "D" train this morning to work, i saw the Manhattan Bridge on the Broadway side. Some of it looks real clean (Recoloreed white) while the rest of it looks grafffited. Whoever said the bridge was fully clean of graffiti was fibbing.
Second, the last time i passed the express platform at Canal Street, the southbound side wasn't even completed. Some of the Nortbound side looked done, but i'm not sure. If, as it's been posted here, the other side of the bridge will be open come September of this year, aren't they working a bit faster on the Canal Street Platform. I mean, it's going to carry the "B", "D" and "Q".
Also, how is the Q going to run express via Bway if the "D' is teminating at 57th Street. This idea would work better:
Q-21st Queensbridge to Brighton Beach.
M-F 6A-9p exp in bklyn and manhattan.
Sa-Su local in bklyn, express manhattan. (runs to Coney Island).
M-Metropolitan Av to Coney Island
M-F 6A-9p.
Sa-Su(runs only from Metropolitan Av to Myrtle Av).
D-205th St-W 4th Street.
24-7
this works so much easier. Then the "B" can run to Bway without getting bottlenecked.
The bridge "H" tracks won't be open in September of THIS year -- maybe September of NEXT year.
David
The H tracks actually appear to be ready now. They are closed because they (and the walkway and one lane) are being used to paint the west side of the bridge. That process is going slow, because of lead paint removal. The few newly painted sections not still covered by the lead containment tents already have graffiti.
The tracks have been ready for years. They're NYC Transit's tracks. The problem is the structure supporting the tracks, which belongs to New York City. We've been through this ad nauseum, so I'm not going to say any more.
David
OK, sorry to sound stupid, but:
Why are the 6th Ave tracks called the "AB" tracks and the Bway tracks called the "H" tracks?
(Why are the 6th Avenue tracks called the A/B tracks and the Broadway tracks called the H tracks).
I dunno. Many subway tracks are labled A1, B2 etc on the track maps, but I have no idea where the H came from.
It's just another letter. When the Canal Street tracks were swapped on the bridge to the south side in 1967, and the IND was brought to the north, the south track, which was H, was switched to A at the midpoint of the bridge (where the cables are closest to the deck) because it connected to line A in Manhattan. The Manhattan half (actually, the whole bridge is in Manhattan) of then track A became IND track B. So when you travel on the North side from Brooklyn, the chaining plates on the signals change from A to B in the middle, and on the south they change from H to A at the same point.
It changes from H to A at the junction with the tunnel bound tracks south of Prince St. (the tunnel tracks —the BMT "B", also change to A at this point.) Before Chrystie, the "A" went all the way through on the north side, and I imagine "H" looped around to the switches north of Chambers. Now, the stub tracks are now J 1& 3. When you enter Canal, those tracks end behind the east wall, and J4 (Queens bound) swings over in place to become J1 and the two new middle tracks are J 3 & 4.
The whole bridge is in Manhattan? Neat trick, since the boundary line between New York Co and Kings Co is approximately in the middle of the river.
>>The whole bridge is in Manhattan? Neat trick, since the boundary line between New York Co and Kings Co is approximately in the middle of the river.
Nope--the county line is at the Brooklyn bulkhead line. Not only the East River, but even the Furman St. piers are in New York County. Apparently this was done to give New York control of the ferry franchises when she and B'klyn were rival cities.
This was done so long ago that Brooklyn was still a town when it was denied a portion of the river.
Can't agree. No where do I find anything that backs up this claim.
I find your lack of faith disturbing...
Burrows & Wallace, "Gotham," p. 580, explains, "Under its colonial charter, the municipal corporation's boundaries lapped to the shores of Long Island. It also had exclusive authority to license ferries across the East River."
Look at the Hagstrom map of Brooklyn, as I am right now: there's a heavy dashed line following the bulkhead line from Buttermilk Channel to the Brooklyn Bridge, labeled "New York Co." on one side and "Kings Co." on the other (the labels are at the Red Hook end).
The same map does represent Manhattan, Queens, and B'klyn boroughs as meeting in the middle of the East River at Newtown Creek, however, so (unless that's an error) the borough boundaries are not contiguous with the county lines. Nevertheless, all of the East River islands (and Governor's Island) are in Manhattan's jurisdiction.
Not Ellis Island, at least not anymore ...
The signal route is A on the 6th Avenue Tracks. It changes to B midway. It is the same on the Broadway side except the route doesn't change and it is H.
It does change, from H to A.
The letters refer to the "chaining codes", these are the routes identifications assigned by the BRT, BMT, or IRT when the routes were built.
For example, see http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/chainall.htm for the JoeKorNor Webpage on chaining codes
BMT A was Broadway-Brighton
BMT H was the Manhattan Bridge South Tracks that originally formed the Chambers Street Loop which connected Chambers Street (now on the J/M/Z lines) to the Main tracks just north of now-abandoned Myrtle Avenue Station under Flatbush Avenue Extension.
IND B was the 6th Avenue Line. The 6th Avenue tracks orignally ended east of the 2nd Avenue Station but were moved to extend down Chrystie Street in 1967.
I don't think the D Trains from the north should terminate at West 4 Street. It makes sense to terminate there because they have switches, but to have trains barreling down 6 Avenue Express at 40+ mph. and have them take switches at no more than 10 or 15 mph is dangerous. If they run them to West 4 Street, they will have to add timers and more timers to make sure they go slow enough. That's whay I think that they should terminate at 34 Street.
southbound 6th Ave express n. of W4th St
WD's already there, damn them. Ruined many a fast "Q" run.
Wayne
I don't understand why is the D trains are going to terminate at 57 St-7 Av when Broadway tracks are reopened.
There will be two D Trains. Trains from the Bronx will follow 6th Av. to 34th St. Trains from Brooklyn will follow 7th Av to 57th St. Change trains at 34th St for continuing service. This is because you can't reach Sixth Av, from the south tracks on the bridge, just as you can't reach 7th Av. from the north tracks.
wouldnt it be easier when they close to run just D service from 205th st to 34th and have Q replace D on weekends and bring the M tain back to Brighton Line.
I was think the same thing. D on 6th Ave, Q and M in Brooklyn on the Brighton.
Problem is the M train is practically useless and the Q train would be severly overcrowded with Brighton line riders needing midtown trains. You gotta have 2 midtown trains running on the Brighton line.
As for Canal St.-Bridge line, they've been making an awful lot of progress recently. Whenever I'm there I see construction workers--admittedly, they're usually only horsing around, but at least they're on site (most MTA sites seem to be deserted during the daytime). The tracks are finally in place, and the NB platform looks to be about done (using the same Chinese-themed tile pattern as on the upper level, but with different colors). I would guess it won't be long before the Brooklyn-bound platform closes for the same treatment.
They're also reorganizing the fare control at the IRT platforms to make the transfer easier. It's almost too bad--I've always been fascinated by how appalling Canal was, and now they're turning it into a place halfway fit for human beings. The thing I'll miss most is that terrifying array of 8" steam pipes in the staircase between the bridge platform and the uptown IRT....
Why aren't the TA operating the "N" line like this:
M-F 6A-9p express PAcific St-59th St
express Canal St-57th St
Weekends-local in bklyn and manhattan.
"N" and "R" service would run much better with this pattern in place. At least until the bridge reopens(which hasn't been the same since april of 1986 and who knows when FOR REAL when it will open fully). This would be better for riders and keep both lines on time and run them better.
No, N line service wouldn't run better if it ran express in Manhattan.
Running express in Manhattan would require a diverging move north of Canal Street and a merging move south of 57th Street (that's northbound; reverse it for southbound). The more switching, the fewer trains can be operated and the less reliable the operation becomes. Besides (and I'd have to check this), an insufficient level of local service might be provided if N trains ran express in Manhattan.
David
It also doesn't save much time. With all the red signals caused by the switching, any time saved by an N express run is lost waiting for signals to clear. It also cuts service at local stations by 50% with no advantages.
then have them run during rush hr only express. I dont understand why a few years ago befoe the bridge was taken apart to be redone, "N" ran express and "R" ran local without upsets. Are they just waiting until the bridge gets done and have return express permantly or are they waiting to see what they do to the other side?
Because when the N ran express over the Manny B, there was no switching at the southern end, only at 57th St. south of Spring, the N went downstairs to the currently Oscar Madison-like Canal Street platform, then across to Brookyln. They also didn't have to switch tracks past DeKalb during rush hours under that set-up, when the N and the B skipped that station.
Hopefully, the Canal St. platform will be more to Felix Unger's liking by the time the south side tracks reopen.-)
HMAAAAA!! FMUHH!! (Jack Lemmon sprains his throat.)
There was also a lot of grumbling about having to wait 10 minutes at Bway local stops with only R service during the short period of bridge service in 1990. Many people in Astoria actually lobbied to have the N train put back on the local tracks.
Simon: Since all you guys are talking about my train, and please call it the Sea Beach, let me add my two cents worth. The Sea Beach used to be an Express train, and the 4th Avenue Local a local. It would do much better to return to that format since it worked in the past. And for Pete's sake open that damn south side of the MannyB. One more thing. Use the express tracks on the Sea Beach line in Brooklyn when needed for faster service as well as the local tracks there. And clean up those stations. The Sea Beach used to be the class line of the BMT.
The N (Or Sea Beach) was the most important line on the BMT because it was the fastest ride from Coney Island to Midtown. Unfortunately, the N was sidetracked to Montague when the tunnel was closed and under that condition there was nothing to be gained by running express in Manhattan. In fact, service through the 60th St. Tunnel would be impacted negatively by the N catching up to the preceding R while running express. Overall, the N is the victim of the Manhattan bridge situation and no amount of griping and posturing will change that.
Gerry: The truth hurts and it's the truth. Maybe someday when the damn MannyB reopens.
Fred, you're not alone in your feelings. It tears me up just as much to see the N running local in Mahnattan, but Gerry hit the nail on the head. There's not a whole lot we can do about it. Blame it on The Money Pit.
P. S. Back in the good old days, you also had Brighton locals using the Montague St. tunnel along with 4th Ave. locals. Heck, there were three express and two local services along Broadway. I'm sure you remember it well.
I do. 1986-88. Ran fairly smooth.
Quite true. I was referring to the pre-Chrystie St. days, more specifically up through the late 50s before service cuts on the BMT division began. By the 60s, you still had three express and two local services (three if you consider the QB and QT as separate services, although they never ran at the same time) along Broadway, but the only time you'd actually see them all at once was during rush hours. Of the expresses, only the N was still running 24/7.
And we're still beating this into the ground and getting me upset at present developments over the "N", or as I call it, the Sea Beach. While perusing over the "Cars of the BMT", I noticed in one picture the box designating the following: Sea Beach Express! The blood starting boiling as I understood that to the current local situation and the run down stations on that route. Not the best waya to start the week, but sometimes nostalgia can be a good thing as well.
Take it easy Fred, some day, maybe the Sea Beach will be a Express on Broadway Again. Probably the same time they run the Trolleys down Coney Island Ave and Church Ave Again
Nice shot Bob but I don't think you've quite solved my problem but keep on pitching. You might come up with something.
The original R-27 and R-30 side route curtains said, "N-Broadway/Sea Beach Express" while the R-32s had simply, "N-Broadway Express". At least on today's R-32 side route curtains, you have, "N-Astoria/B'wy/Sea Beach" with no express or local designation.
Both the Triplexes and BMT standards had Sea Beach Exp. route signs, and the standards even had a Sea Beach Local designation. Come to think of it, the BMT standards had just about every BMT route permutation you could think of except 4th Ave. Exp.
This Posting Should Make Sea (l) Beach Fred Happy
Hey Steve 8AVEXP: Your message did improve my disposition, just as Brighton #1 Express Bob said it would. Thanks buddy.
I'd hate to think what would have happened if you had ever actually seen a train signed up as a Sea Beach local.-)
Does anyone have a COMPLETE listing of the BMT Signs originallly used
Thanks
Steve
From a recently acquired BMT Standard destination roll:
Ditmas Ave
36th St.-4th Av
Forest Hills-Queens
Astoria
Via Tunnel thru
NASSAU LOOP
Via Bridge to Bklyn
Via Bridge thru
NASSAU LOOP
Via Tunnel to Bklyn
6th Av.Manh't'n
8th Av.Manh't'n
Myrtle Av.
Eastern P'kwy
Atlantic Av.
Canarsie
Bowery
Chambers St.
Canal St.
Jamaica
Crescent St.
111th St.
Metropolitan Av.
Broad St.
Whitehall St.
Queens Plaza
95th St.-Ft.H'ton
Prospect Park
Franklin Av.
Franklin-Nassau
Nassau St.
Brighton Beach
57th St. Manh't'n
Kings Highway
Times Square
Coney Island
Bay Parkway
62nd St. Bklyn
City Hall
Ninth Av.
Whew! Hope this helps.
The Bowery as a destination seems strange. Did any trains ever terminate there?
A quick look at my 1924 BMT map revealed that the #10 Myrtle - Chambers line terminated at Bowery during pm rush hours. The 1939 map shows it terminating at Essex St during both am and pm rush hours -- I don't know when the service pattern changed.
Jim.
www.bmt-lines.com
Is this the Essex St. that has the old trolley loop in it, are there any photos showing this with trolleys ? this is the same Essex St that you come onto from the Willamsburg br....thanks
Yes, that's the one. There is a photo in New York Transit Memories of a PCC in the terminal during a fantrip. We tried to get a glimpse of the trolley terminal last fall while on a Queens-bound J train; there's not much to see.
On a recent visit to www.bmt-lines.com supported by - T - Broadway West End - I found what appears to be evidence that suggests Express service was promoted on a BMT brochure on the 14th Street Canarsie line back in the late 1930's.
We all know that the 14th Street Canarsie line was not built with express tracks. So I wonder if the service was ever actually implemented.
Jim or anyone else - can you tell us if the service was actually implemented and if so - which stops were express and which were local? I assume any express service must have been skip stop. Is this the case? When did this service run and when was it discontinued?
We all know that the 14th Street Canarsie line was not built with express tracks. So I wonder if the service was ever actually implemented.
Yes it was implemented.
...can you tell us if the service was actually implemented and if so - which stops were express and which were local?
The stops between Myrtle and 1st Aves were local - all others were express.
I assume any express service must have been skip stop. Is this the case?
No. Locals ran between Myrtle and 8th Aves. Expresses ran between Canarsie or Lefferts and 8th Ave.
When did this service run and when was it discontinued?
It was discontinued in 1956 as part of the transfer of the BMT Fulton St Line to the IND.
As I've been told.......
It ran using multis and ABs (at least at one point in history). The Multis did the local since they had quick acceleration, the ABs did the express.
They platooned dispatches - the local immediately followed an express leaving, e.g., 8th Ave. The following express caught up to the preceeding local just outside Myrtle Ave, where the local changed direction.
Also the BMT used single car operation late at nite. One time Walter Druck told me he was stuck in the East River tunnel for nearly an hour late at night. His car broke down and the follower was unable to push it. It took two followers to push the disabled car up the grade to Bedford Ave. Each at 20 minute headways......
Was it a BMT standard? If it was a multi, he should have said, "OK, everybody out and push!"-)
I'll assume it was a standard, based on Walter's age (he was already a teenager when the standards were delivered!)
I consider myself as blessed for having known him (he passed away about 1988 or so). An interesting man - I think he was a photographer/cameraman most of his life but he worked for Third Ave Railway for a short time. He also worked in Vaudeville and at silent movies as a drummer in the band. He was also from Ridgewood, as am I.
"I never did like dem talkin' pitchers much" he once told me. What a unique experience, to span generations in such a fashion. Interesting thing about our hobby, how young and old people can share a conversation. Society in general should be so lucky......
It sounds like this type of "express" can only be implemented with longer headways. If trains are running every three minutes, the following express would catch up to the local too quickly. But, say, five minute headways overall mean 10 minute headways for separate locals and expresses.
All in all, the BMT really cheaped out when it didn't build a third track on this line.
Hagstrom maps show a LIRR track running next to it .
Is underground ,1 or 2 tracks ? Anybody know?
Are you referring to the Evergreen Branch?
It's abandoned, gone entirely west of Myrtle Ave and nearly gone east of Myrtle.
It was at-grade, originally the 3' gage New York and Manhattan Beach Railroad. It ended at Quay Street in Greenpoint, on the East River. It was Austin Corbin's first big foray in railroading. Later standard-gaged and largely now abandoned west of the existing Bay Ridge line.
"The Railroadians", I believe, published a little book on it in the 1940s entitled "By Narrow Gauge to Coney Island" or something similar.
Since most of this line is underground, a third track would have been cost-prohibative. The BMT was already in financial trouble during the 14th St. line's constructon, and it was completed late (1928) and way over budget.
Another reason to hate former mayor Hylan.
Larry Littlefield says of the 14th Street Line, "All in all, the BMT really cheaped out when it didn't build a third track on this line."
Wasn't 14th Street a Dual-Contracts line, designed, built, and paid for by the City? Other than the Beech Street Subway and the early elevated lines, was there ever a privately-built rapid transit line in New York?
I may be wrong, but I think the City even paid for the third-tracking of the three Manhattan Els in the 19-teens.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
It sounds like this type of "express" can only be implemented with longer headways. If trains are running every three minutes, the following express would catch up to the local too quickly. But, say, five minute headways overall mean 10 minute headways for separate locals and expresses.
The BMT ran 24 tph, however 30 tph is possible - which is the capacity of the line as dictated by the 8th Ave geometry. Here's how it is (and was) done.
The expresses were A/B's and the locals were Multis. Assume the following: both locals and expresses ran a a maximum speed of 30 mpg; the expresses ran through the station at 15 mpg; the stations were 550 feet long; the standards had acceleration/braking rates of 1.5 mph/s; the Multis had acceleration/braking rates of 3.5 mph/s; the signals will permit 90 second intervals.
A standard travels 550' at 15 mph in 25 seconds. It will take move a total of 1100 feet to make sure that the entire train is out of the station before speeding up. It accelerates from 15 mph to 30 mph in 10 seconds and travels 294 feet. The deacceleration distance and time are the same. Thus, from a point 294 feet before a station to 844 feet after a station it took a standard 70 seconds to travel 1688 feet.
The Multi's will accelerate from a complete stop to 30 mph in 8.5 seconds and will travel 189 feet. The same for the braking time and distance. The rest of the 1688 feet that the standard express took - 1310 feet was taken at 30 mph in 30 seconds. The total time that the Multi took for the stop was 58 seconds plus dwell time. Assume a dwell time of 20 seconds at each station; this brings the Multi's up to 77 seconds for the same distance. The Multi will fall behind by 56 seconds over the 8 local stops relative to the expresses.
Assume 30 tph operation. Express 1 leaves Myrtle at 0; local leaves 90 seconds later; Express 2 leaves 240 seconds after Express 1; etc. By the time they reach the East River tunnel the relative spacings are: Express 1 0; local 146 seconds; Express 2 240 seconds. N.B. the distance between the local and Express 2 is 94 seconds - still within the operating specs for the signals.
First Ave station is reached. The Multi arrives with a standard 94 seconds behind. However, the increased acceleration and braking characteristics will make the Multi gain 10 seconds on each stop over the trailing standard. Thus, the trains are evenly spread out at 120 second intervals, when they arrive at the 8th Ave terminal.
Very good explanation - they would of course have to shave a few seconds here and there due to the curves at Graham, between Montrose and Morgan and entering Jefferson and leaving Lorimer, correct?
Wayne
they would of course have to shave a few seconds here and there due to the curves at Graham, between Montrose and Morgan and entering Jefferson and leaving Lorimer, correct?
Only to the extent that they affected the expresses and locals differently. It is the differences between the expresses and locals that is important; similar behavior gets cancelled out.
Stephen Bauman's scenario makes sense, but I would have to question the 30-mph speed limit--remember, we're talking about the thirties through the fifties, long before the TA slowed everything down to the crawls of today. And Multis could hit 60 mph--not that they did, but they could.
Also, I don't think the original BMT signals would allow 90 seconds--BMT signals were designed for two-minute intervals, 30 trains per hour. One of the upgrades for the IND construction was to change that to 34 trains per hour, a minute and three-quarters between trains.
What's the TA's current interval plan? About 15 minutes between trains wouldn't surprise me--it would fit in quite well with the overall slowing of service and elimination of expresses.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I don't think the original BMT signals would allow 90 seconds--BMT signals were designed for two-minute interval
The BMT block system did provide for 90 second operation. The referenced diagram from the 1904 IRT construction book mentions 96 second headways for original system. The BMT standards had higher braking rates than the IRT cars.
IRT Diagram showing 96 sec headway for signals
One of the upgrades for the IND construction was to change that to 34 trains per hour, a minute and three-quarters between trains.
Actually, the Manhattan Els had significantly more than 34 tph. The Brooklyn Bridge Railway had 90 tph which makes the IND's claims quite underwhelming.
When I went to Europe for the first time in 1977, there was an older gentleman in our excursion who was born and raised in Brooklyn. We got into a lengthy discussion about subways; he remembered when each car on an elevated train had a conductor, and how a conductor would order you off the train if you were horsing around. In those days, no one argued with him.
03/04/2000
Hey Fitz!
I assume that this is the destination sign is the larger one.
Try finding one from the 2800 series. I know for a fact because I saw a photo of one with [GG Crosstown] on it. It was rumored they were to run there. Can anyone state if they did ?
Bill Newkirk
Bill:
Yes,the destination sign is the larger one. Impossible to tell what series it came from,though.
I've never seen one like that you describe;where can I find that picture?
03/05/2000
I do have a slide here somewhere, but I am not equipped yet to scan slides and e-mail them, someday perhaps.
Bill Newkirk
It is believed that none of the BMT standards ever ran on the GG. One possible explanation for the GG signs is the Jamaica Yard crisis of 1966. R-1/9s operating out of that yard began dropping like flies in August of that year, and 32 R-16 were sent over with fresh GG signs to ease the situation. At the same time, a group of BMT standards awaiting the scrapper's torch were yanked off the scrap line and sent back to revenue service. It's possible that these cars may have had GG signs spliced into their roller curtains in case they would be needed.
I have a BMT standard route curtain which also came from a later large-size sign box. It does not have a GG sign.
I think the only IND lines a BMT Standard ever ventured on was the Queens IND (after the 1955 connection to the Broadway BMT via 60th St.) and the Sixth Ave local (after the KK route began running in 1968).
I know I've posted this before, but since the subject came up again --
When I was young and foolish (which would be c. 1960, give or take a year or two), I had occasion to peruse the roll signs on an active BMT Standard car or two. I did on at least one occasion come across a 'GG - Crosstown' or some such route designation, and a 'Smith - 9th Sts' terminal designation.
My theory is that these were added to at least some of the Standards around 1955 when the Queens Blvd. line connection opened to allow (probably only for emergency) operation of the Standards on the GG (now G) line. I don't think it ever happened (but who knows).
-- Ed Sachs
03/10/2000
Ed Sachs,
Well Ed, you're right. I was told the 2800 series A-B's had the "GG Crosstown" signs. I saw a photo of it!
Bill Newkirk
Thank you ,Mr Fitz
Wait a minute. If the Queensbridge connection opens before the H tracks on the Manhattan Bridge open, why not run the R express on Broadway, through the 63rd Street line (which connects directly to the Broadway BMT express tracks), and back onto the Queens Blvd. local tracks? I know it seems mighty strange to have the R running express, but otherwise, why not? Service at local stations in Manhattan, and at 5th and Lex, would be reduced in half, and there would be no direct access from the 4/5/6 to Queens Blvd. via the R at 59th (but the 6 - E/F transfer would, of course, remain one stop south, and passengers from further south could transfer at Union Square or even Canal).
Very good and simple. Now still run the G into Queens Plaza if the
layup track is still long enough to handle it.
No, I think the G should continue past Queens Plaza. Otherwise there would be no access from Queens Plaza to the following local stations. Capacity won't be a problem until the Manhattan Bridge is finished and another line runs on the local tracks.
Actually, A Brighton Express running over the bridge and up Broadway Express. The current fastest train to CI is the B. If the Q went to CI, it would be the fastest.
So, the B is still the fastest way to C. I. even with those lovable 75-footers, eh?
Well, it's more scenic than the N!
There is no reason why the N and the D cannot both terminate at Stillwell Avenue. The 7 has a lot more service than the D and Q combined and ALL of those trains go to the two track Times Square.
Anything is more scenic then the N except the R, which never goes out side, and the C
The "E" never goes outside either...
Peace,
Andee
Still the smart aleck. Read my piece on the boob I just received in the mail. I'd recommend you buy it. The Brighton gets an even bigger play than the Sea Beach.
Ooohhhhhh noooooooo, here we go again.....
But don't you think that this is one of the better SubTalk arguments? At least it's on topic! So no annoying netcops interrupting the thread with their nuisances.
To FRED NO COMMENT
I'm keeping silent on this one, too.. But if you notice, there are a lot of others who are tuning in to our friendly jibes. Beat a lot of other stuff I've been seeing on this website lately.
Little do they know huh?
Yeah, you got a fan here...
That's good to know SUBWAYSURF, but here's one for you. Have you heard anymore about the Stillwell Avenue Tour that was talked about to death on this line some weeks ago? Seems some of us wanted to have one either at the end of April or in late June since the word is out that Stillwell will be closing down for repairs soon after. Many of us were planning a trip and since I live in California I have to start preparing for the such a trip now. If not you Mr Surf, maybe some else out there can fill me in on the trip. Is it a go or not?
You're right about that. I must admit that an argument about the Brighton vs the Sea Beach line is small potatoes, even peanuts, compared to some of the stuff we've seen. And, yes, it is on topic.
If you see me say "here we go again", be assured it's beind said with a smirk and with tongue firmly in cheek.
Good to hear Steve. If you don't know by now, Brighton Beach Bob and I are website buddies, and he gets a kick out of ribbing me and me him. It is all in good fun except when politics creeps into it, but even then it doesn't degenerate into what I've seen at times on this site. To the guy who gave me my title, have a great day.
I agree with Sea(l)Beach Fred, what we do is good natured fun. If I really want to get into with Fred, I E Mail him so it is not on this post. RIGHT FREDDIE OLD BOY.
Well most of the time old buddy that you do. The last one did sting, however, about as bad as Hillary's looks.
NO POLITICS, OR THAT GUY DOWN COLORADO BLVD WILL GET A PHONE NUMBER.
EVERYTHING here is mild compared to some of the stuff over on BusTalk.
Then thank goodness I'm not connected with Bustalk.
Bustalk itself is usually mild, it just flared up a couple of times, something that hasn't happened here. The subway is a higher class of transit, and of riders.
Does anyone know what day this is, Eugenius should know. It is National PIG DAY, hey Sarge does this include the Police Too?
I mean book not boob.
And You Teach School???
And why they sent the "N" to Astoria from its previous terminals of 57th Street (since 1957) and Times Square-42nd Street (before 1957) is absolutely beyond me. The R used to be that train and it was a good local for those who needed to ride one.
The N had run to Astoria in the sixties. The problem was that the R didn't have a yard on its route, generating deadhead mileage, while the N, like the F, had a yard at both ends. With the change, the N runs from Coney Island, while the R runs from Jamaica - much more efficient.
The plan I have designed, I have been designing for 3 years. There are 5 lines. The 8,10,11,12,14 they are BMT sized cars with IRT numbers. Two are local and three are express. The two local lines are the 8, and the 12, and the express lines are the 10, 11, and 14. The 8 line Bronx terminal will be Gun Hill Road-Norwood; it will run through the entire Third Avenue El route...that is why I gave it the 8. The 10 lines Bronx terminal will be 233 Street/ Seton Falls Park. The 12 lines Manhattan Terminal will be 125 Street Second Avenue, The 11 lines Bronx Terminal will be Bay Plaza-Co Op City, and the 14 lines terminal will be a modest minor rebuild of the Dyre Avenue Express tracks to BMT/IND Platform Lengths/ Standard.
The 8 Lines Southern Terminal will be Utica Avenue-Bergen Street
The 10 Lines Southern Terminal will Flatbush Avenue/ Avenue U- Kings County Mall
The 11 Lines Southern Terminal will be JFK Airport (All airports terminal the Subway Line will make stops at)
The 12 Lines Southern Terminal Will be Staten Island Mall- Richmondtown
The 14 Lines Southern Terminal Will be Main Street- Tottenville, Staten Island
In my plan all the stops have been designed, station dimensions have been made and the stations designs are ready. All Track plans are ready. I have a 35-page plan showing every little detail. The line will cost 6 billion dollars.
I designed this plan cause I got tired of the RTA or what ever it is called and the MTA. Their plans really stunk and did not help people at all. Most of my designs are based on the IND Second System Plan. The 10 Line gets to Kings County Mall under Utica Avenue...The Utica Avenue Line...See. This plan I know will get a lot of opposition but I need all the help I can get...Also these lines will be running full time.
Thanks Heypaul
Christopher Rivera
Could you post a map with your planned new lines and line extensions?
Good work , but why stop at the city line? Let,s push the METROpolitan Transportation agency to the burbs. Why should they suffer M-1,M-3 commuter cars?
A little background on Christopher's post. About a week ago Christopher e-mailed me asking for some assistance with his plans for a 2nd Avenue Subway. He had some concerns about where to build the storage yards, and I suggested keeping the line running at full rush hour service 24 hours a day, thus eliminating the need for storage yards. Apparently he liked that idea. Christopher mentioned that he had planned 5 lines to run, and I asked him if they were all going to be running on 2nd Avenue.
His post revealing detailed plans caught me by surprise this afternoon. I mention this to reassure you that Christopher has been working on his own, and that this is not so new plot of mine to further disrupt things here.
The 6 billion dollar price tag seems modest for all the features he suggests. I think my consultation fee of $275,000 for an idea that took about 20 minutes is fair considering that there will now be no need to build storage yards underneath Yankee Stadium. We were very worried that a slow moving bunt up the 3rd base line might be jinxed by a train being laid up.
Let me clarify the southern terminus of Kings County Mall. That is of course Kings County Hospital, where I usually spend my summers. This way people would have a convenient way to visit me and help cheer me up.
Frankly, I would like to see details of these plans.
Their implementation might require the determination of another Robert Moses.
The modern world is not conducive to a new Robert Moses
I am already digging out the Utica Avenue Subway/NIMBY prison/NIMBY tomb. I'm doing it with teaspoons, which are very difficult to hold with my hoofs.
I want to applaud your pigheaded persistence. It takes the efforts of single minded visionaries such as yourself to bring about the impossible. The work must be hard, but I am sure that you hose down the tunnel thoroughly before taking the teaspoon into your hoofs. The resulting mud will make you feel right at home, and make your labor easy.
Ambitious. Does that mean your proposed "12/14" will cross the Verrazano Bridge or do you propose a tunnel be built for it? What about the fact that there are no I K O P T U V W X Y designations yet? Better than double digit numbers IMHO. I'd like to see your plan.
dan---- this is christopher's plan, not mine---- i have been far too busy with my nefarious deeds to plan anything of this depth--- my only contribution was to suggest keeping the fleet running 24 hours a day--- thus eliminating the need for storage facilities --- that idea is worth every penny that i am billing them for--
Hello to all Subtalkers.
This is the first time I am writing this type of notice on this Bulletin Board and I am glad to have found this Board.
This message might not be for everyone, but everything is not meant to be for everyone. But I hope that all those who are or have an interest,will get back to me.
There was a group a few years ago that was call L.A.G.I.T.. That stands for Lesbian and gays in Transit. Its was a group of people that work for some type of Transit or transportation. Its was a group that dealt with gay and lesbian issues affecting people who worked in transit.
We found out when this group was having a meeting that people were interested in meeting others that work for transit. Not only did we have people in transit but we also had other people that work for the city of NY.
After a few years the group broke up because we could not find a meeting place to get everyone together. However, some of us are still toether and we are planning another meeting on Saturday April 8.
If you feel that you would like more information or want to be part of the group, You can email me.
Thank You
Oooooh! Count me in!(Oh my gosh, what will I wear...)
hehehe..........
Grow up.
I find the snickering, snotty, childish responses of Judy Garland and Subway Surf to a legitimate posting about a transit-interested group to be extremely offensive and totally inappropriate in this forum.
Would they do the same thing if there were groups of Irish, Jewish, African-American, Korean, Catholic, Lutheran, Agnostic, Divorced, or other kinds of railfans planning on a meeting?
I hope L.A.G.I.T. turns out to be as successful as the similar groups in AT&T, the National Education Association, and other places in the real world. Good luck.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Ed--- I understand your annoyance with some of the
posted responses to the notice of a group of gay and
lesbian transit workers having a meeting--- the
original post was an unusual post, in that it was an
invitation to interested people here to a group of
gay people--- i would imagine that the person who
posted the original message would not be shocked or
really hurt by some of the humorous response---
partly because he has experienced this before and i
hope partly because he realizes that his post was a
bit daring--- issues about sexuality and
homosexuality are highly charged issues--- posting
an invitation for interested parties to come to a
meeting of a gay group is sort of waving a red flag
in front of people with strong negative feelings
about gays or even just regular people who feel
uncomfortable with the message put up on this
board--- so some of the response to the post may be
partly a way of establishing some distance from the
post---- and this is all very natural
why do i get involved with this--- there are times
when i push the envelope with my silliness--- and
there are times when people express their irritation
with it--- frequently i'll say to myself- what a
humorless bunch of ......--- but i kind of initiated
it----
i think i'll end my thoughts with a steven wright
joke----
he went into a men's store---
a salesman came over and asked if he could help----
steven wright said "find me something i would like"
the salesman asked- how am i suppose to know what
you like?
steven wright said-- you were the one who started
this thing (it sounded better when he told it )
I read your entire message and I didn't see the "long post" you promised in the subject heading.
Oh Paul, you tease! I've been waiting for years to wear my leather motorman's outfit. Ooooooogaaaaaaa! Ooooooooooogaaaaaaa!
I wish to take this moment to thank all subtalkers for the e-mail responses I have recieved. Some of them have been most humorous, none were really negative. By and large the responses I have received have been most positive. Look foward to seeing you there. All who have e-mailed me will receive the information shortly.
Thank You Again
Saturday was a productive day at the Branford Electric Rwy Association. Car 6688 came out of the shop on a cold, snowy day for a major cleaning of the fan assemlies and thorough cleaning of the vents and spaces in the ceiling. I'll be glad tell you I was the one with the air hose in my hand and started flinging the steel dust around. It was eventful. The crew put me up to it and I decided fine, as long as I get rewarded handsomely for my troubles. If the project's leader can bribe me with a brake handle, I'd probably get dirty 6 times over and not complain about it. When I was finished, my entire face got covered with this terrible black stuff. Yeah, I've got guts. I did the dirty job that no one else wanted to do.
Thanks to Lou from Bklyn, Doug aka BMTman, and Mr. t for all the help in the world because finishing 6688 up is becoming more of a reality. And of course, no mention would be incomplete without mentioning the project's leader Lou Shavell who made this all wothwhile. Until we meet again gentlemen.... I don't think the dirt's gotten to my head, so I'll feel fine:)
-Stef
Stef, I understand what you were doing, but how did you go about it? Were you working from the outside in, or from the inside out?
Did you go through the roof vents with the air hose, or through the ceiling of the car? These probably sound like stupid questions,but I am trying to get a picture of how you tackled this dirty job.
Karl:
We began by going through the fan opening, and Stef was up there with a vacuum. Once done, we were ready to blow out the remaining dirt. Thurston attached a line to the cars compressor, and we had plenty of air power to begin. Ted, our Shop Superintendent, suggested that we blow both ways. So, after Stef was done inside, I climbed the ladder outside to clean under the roof grates, and get out what I could. Lou from Brooklyn and Thurston also helped outside. Repeat the process, and we actually got one section pretty clean. Each opening for the fan covers approximately ¼ of the car. There is a bulkhead that blocks off the next section.
When Stef was blowing the dust out, the car actually looked as if were on fire, with a cloud of black soot spewing into the snowy sky.
We have more to do this weekend, if you want to watch first hand.
Lou,
Wow! It does sound as if the dirt and dust was flying. Stef didn't mention the vac, and I was wondering if you had considered shopvacs to keep some of the dirt under control. One consolation is that this should be one job that will never have to be done again. The days of steel dust buildup should be over for 6688. It does sound as if the entire car interior will need cleaned when you finish the project. You may even have to drop the light tube covers and clean them.
I wish I wasn't so far away, or I would be there to help, not to watch. I am afraid that if I ever got up there though, you would have to hide 1227 and 1349, or I would be over sitting in them or playing with the gates, and wind up not helping with the R-17. I am assuming that you have 197, 659 and 1362 completely covered over, that I would not even be able to find them.
Stef did use our shop vac, an older one that has the same wonderful whine as the 707 jet engines before they were required to muffle the noise.
We did drop the light tubes last summer, and will clean them again after this job is done.
When you make it up, we can show you all those cars. Don't forget 999. I had the "pleasure" of going into her a couple of weeks ago to find heater elements for 6688. She is tarped over, and I had a lot of fun stumbling around with a two watt flashlight as my only source of light.
Well old friend, I did fail to mention that I used a vac to get most stuff. Actually, I tried to keep the story short and sweet. I swear that the car will be 99% free of steel dust when I get through with it. Then people will wonder if this is the same car that was retired from the NYC Subway in 1988. It'll be significantly better than when it was in the hands of the Transit Authority.
If all goes according to plan I will go through Round Two of me vs the muck this Saturday. The muck will get KO'ed.
I know you're a fan of the el cars. Perhaps one of these days, I might try my hand at working on one of those old timers.... You'll be the first to get pictures of a restored 1349.
Regards,
Stef
Stef,
It sounds as if Round Two may be just a continuation. Lou S. referred to different sections. This is just a guess, but could there be four or more of these sections in total. You may have several more rounds to conquer the dust, but think how much cleaner the car will be when you're done. After all, you are removing 45 years of steel dust. Good luck! I hope the rest of the job goes easier.
I am a "number nut", and I can't help but think what a neat number 6688 is for a preserved car, and it's the car's real number too!
Of the El cars you mention, 1227 comes out regularly & runs smooth.
Re: Work done on Saturday three points that might interest some:
1. The R-17 was in a barn with no O/H. While in the barn a cable was hooked to trolley pole, then to a box on the wall to give her juice. When a knife switch was thrown red lights came on next to the box so that all knew the cable was live.
To get to the next barn where a o/h wire awaited I saw them use a cable that has a hook on one end. A big WOODEN ladder is used to put the hook around the o/h wire, then I was given the job of hauling in the live cable as we moved forward. I stood between the storm door so as not to touch anything while handling the 600 volts.
2. Because of the dirt we wore disposable white coveralls & looked for all the world like a team removing radioactive waste. Snow was on the ground outside while we were blowing the dirt. It looked like a steam engine had sprayed sinders.
3. I had never thought that the R-17's compressor could produce enough compressed air to power our air hose, but it did just fine.
As Lou & Stef have said there is a lot of work left to do before the film crew arrives, so if you'ld like to have some of this fun join the crew next week ... the floor needs to be mopped, windows washed, etc.
This is not to mention re-installing the ceiling fans.
Mr t__:^)
I wonder if the hook you're referring to is the same one I hoisted onto the o/h 20 years ago when Eddie Sarkauakas was maneuvering 1689 around. I can always say I actually touched something with a ten-foot pole...
Glad to hear 6688 is coming along nicely.
02/22/2000
Any mention of the electrically operated roof vents? Are they working or did the TA wire them closed?
Bill Newkirk
We left her a MESS, the fans all out but one fan. This fan held by four bolts that don't want to move. Lou has to solve this problem next week.
Stef did an amazing job, he looked like a coal miner by the end of the day. When we put 6688 back in the shop and you looked at where she was, you saw white prestine snow between the running rails and this black gunk on the outside of them. The inside of the car is covered with the gunk, we all were wearing dust filters while Stef was blowing out the roof (and Thurston was trying to figure out how to get the last fan down, it is still there).
It was fun to watch them move the cars around, the wire was covered with ice. WOW the arcing was bright flame coming off the poles. Intresting.
The difference is amazing if you look at the first fan area (near end 1) where we started and is now clean compared to the last fan (end 2) where we just got the fan down. I can't beleive New Yorkers have been breathing this stuff in all these years.
Control of those fans is an interesting topic. In Boston there was a little control box with several tubes (remember them?) which operated a motor which turned a rheostat, which in turn controlled fan speed based on the temperature.
Jeff H.: Was the NYCTA system similar?
What are those, the 01200s? Same setup on the NYCT SMEE cars.
Variable speed fans with a pilot motor driving a large rheostat...
reminds me of theatrical dimmers. Speed of the fans is controlled
by a mercury bulb thermostat with several contacts that are shorted
by the mercury as it rises. A small resistor adds heat to the
bulb in certain modes to bias it. The fresh air vents are also
controlled by servo motors based on the temperature. All in all,
a lot of work to produce very little cooling!
Speaking of motors and thermostats, 6398 had an AC motor driving the pot for the fans. The system had since been hardwired to turn at full speed. Haven't even thought about the dampers yet. When 6688 was cleaned under the roofline, did they remove the roof grating? On 6398, the screws are stainless steel and were much easier to remove than the floor/seat trim. For this summer, our projects scheduled will be the installation of a trickle charger, the floor and tiles, addition of the trolley poles and completion of the painting and body work.
6688 has the fan speed rheostat clamped in the full speed
position and the pilot motor is disconnected. The dampers
are not working because of open circuit limit switch contacts,
but I haven't traced out the wiring to see if they too were
disconnected electrically by the TA.
The exterior roof gratings were too difficult to remove. They
are held in with hardened self-tapping screws that have rusted
in place and can't easily be drilled out.
Perhaps ours are easier to remove in part due to the use of a needle scaler, which may be vibrating the rust loose in the threads but for the most part, stainless screws are up on the roof and only one hole had to be drilled/tapped. I'd suppose the limiters for the dampers would be found in the Fan control Relay box. Maybe next time, I'll trace the conduit and see if they can be started.
There are limit switches on each damper motor that prevent
overtravel. When I looked at them last year they were very
dirty. The circuit runs in series through all of them so one
bad apple ruins the bunch. I have not yet tried applying 32V
directly to a motor, but the commutators will probably need
cleaning and perhaps some lubrication will have to be dispensed.
I recently rebuilt a small 32V window defroster fan for PCC 1001
that hadn't turned in 40 years. The comm was so filthy you coulnd't
see the bars anymore.
Sounds like you all had a real good time. Break out the WD-40 for the other fan's bolts...do you have an air wrench handy?
Does #6688 still have those little round panels over the side windows
that said something about "emergency use only" or were they removed or painted over?
wayne
They were painted over actually. During the strip job, we uncovered the glass with that little piece of signage. On the interior, they were left alone by the TA and are very much visible.
My only question is how often did passengers actually use the emergency escape hatch which is the center side window for a serious situation? Can anyone recall of such an incident?
-Stef
Delivering the WD-40 to the little hole above the bolt inside the ceiling is problem one.
The fans bolts go into a flat nut encased in rubber (so it doesn't vibrate), therefore an air wrench doesn't help.
The last fan will probally have the bolts cut off, then we'll have to pull it down bending the four sheet metal strips (it's supose to drop down a inch or so then turn to remove the assy).
Jeff & I spent a lot of time Saturday trying to figure out how to get it out without taking down the whole ceiling or damaging the fan assy.
All of us in the crew, incl. Lou S's young son who was making a lot of intercom announcements, had a rewarding/enjoyable time.
Mr t__:^)
So the intercom still works, eh? How about the doors? I think you know what I would be doing on 6688, although it wouldn't be the same as on 1689...
The doors still work. We need to troubleshoot a pair of doors on 6688 which seem not to be working properly. The pair has been cut out for now.
-Stef
Stef,
Is there any chance of you selling a jar of that R-17 steel dust?
If you want some, send a self addressed bell jar to Stef. We will also send our advertising brochure, which includes a listing of a few of the unsold bridges in our inventory.
Lou.
You have me at a disadvantage, I haven't the slightest idea what a bell jar is.
I had a chance to buy the Brooklyn Bridge some years ago, but the deal fell through. Are you giving me another chance at that one?
Karl:
Bell jars are used for canning fruit. They have a top that is held tight with a clamp. We insist on this better quality jar for our schmootz.
We are upstanding, and would never sell the Brooklyn Bridge. You couldn't make any money off it. The bridges we offer all have tolls, to allow you to make money.
Lou,
The subject of steel dust has been kicked around at this site for many months. Back then, I got a picture in mind of a powdery like substance dark brown in color. Considering that I have been away from NY for over 40 years, is my image a correct one? Since you, Stef, Jeff and Thurston are currently working on its removal from 6688, you can probably give a good description of the actual dust.
I know the exact jar you are referring to, it's just that I had never heard of it called a "bell jar".
The consistency is almost like flour or powdered sugar. As far as the color, you would have to ask another member of the crew. I do not perceive colors well, but it is dark in color. We will save some for posterity.
It is also mixed in with paint sanded off the roof of the R-17. We even saw a wasp mud ball come out of hiding when the air was turned on. It looked like a big nut at first .... opps I'm leaving myself open for a comment from HeyPaul.
Mr t__:^)
The stuff is terrible. No matter whether or not I had a mask on, I still got the black stuff in my nose! Holy cow, I really do think this is a serious undertaking. Free the car up of steel dust? We're really going places where no man has gone before. I'm not even sure if the passenger cars on the TA property have gotten a good cleaning... But if you like specimens, I'm sure I can arrange to have some of the steel dust sent to you.
-Stef
It sounds as if you are describing the soot that I get when I clean the "smokeshelf" of my fireplace. I never thought that the steel dust would be that dark colored.
Good luck tomorrrow with Chapter 2 of "Stef cleans the attic of 6688"
Karl, I think "Ball jar" is the more correct term - as in the Ball Mason Jar Company, who developed and popularized the home canning "industry".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for clearing that up! My mother and my aunt did a lot of home canning at my aunt's home in northeastern Pa. My earliest memories were of my aunt referring to them as "Mason" jars in that area. I should have gotten the connection between Ball and Bell, but I missed it completely. You know those old jars with the wire clips on them apparently are a collectible now.
So I hear. I often wonder what become of my grandmother's jars - she canned hundreds of jars of my grandfather's beets and pickles every year. She canned her last in 1976 (she died in '77) and my grandfather was still working his way through her stash when he had a stroke in '82 and was moved to the nursing home where he died in '83. Unfortunately, due to our family feud (between my mother and the rest of the world) I didn't get any of them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Steve, You are there with us in spirit, especially when the R-9 comes out to play. I'm looking forward to a trip to SeaShore at Kennebunkport this Summer. Maybe I'll get to "assume the position" between their R-4 & R-7a to pop the doors open & closed.
Mr t__:^)
If you do assume the position, please be sure to open and close the doors for me once.-)
"If you do assume the position, please be sure to open and close the doors for me once.-)"
Consider that a promise ... however it will be up to Todd & Gerry, provided I pass my final exam and become a "Qualified" trolley operator at Branford first, as just plain customers aren't normally afforded such a privilege.
Mr t__:^)
Don't feel bad, Karl. I'd be over by 1689, perched on one of its step plates and giving a trigger box a workout.
I am listening to the tape that I was sent in the mail that I agreed to try and turn into sound files. I'm trying to figure out how to do that. What to make into a sound file exactly. How to bracket it off. Anyone who has the same tape want to help?
Perhaps you can utilize a PC mic and Windows
Media/Sound Recorder.. then play the audio
tape into the mic and later "bracket off"
the bits you wish to keep using Media Recorder.
Redbird
I have the system setup to capture audio from tapes, but I'm not sure what to capture. I can't cpature the whole tape as one file.
I AUDIO TAPED CHICAGO CTA NOT BAD !! AND I OFFERED IT FOR FREE !!
it would be good if the MTA would put cameras in the subways to catch vandals who do grafitti, scratching panels and other wrongful costly doings. a few weeks ago, I heard that some teens from Grady high somehow obtained a conducters key and started messing with the doors harming and scaring people. unfortunately, the cops didn't catch them.
with this happening it would be a good idea to install cameras.
Or, you could use a cord that connects to a tape players "Headphones" or "Line Out" jack to the computer's "Mic In" or "Line In" jack. I've done this with other recordings, and it works much better than putting a speaker up to a microphone. The cords can be found at places like Radio Shack. Find one that has two 1/4-inch stereo mini-plugs for best results.
I have noticed quite a few people have shots of the Hudson Bergen Light Rail Testing and operator training. I wanted to know if anyone had any times or days that they would most likely be out testing, I plan on driving out to the line and take some shots of the current construction of the line.
thanks charles
Friday's ERA meeting the guy had some shots of the train out and about testing (street running). It was a weekend and he stumbled acroos teh test.
I took a ride up there this weekend to see how things were progressing. There was no testing, although I wonder if that was related to the bad weather of Friday/early Saturday.
Everything looks ready, down to the signal, ticket machines, and platforms. Although I saw something I thought was strange with the signals. The train signals at intersections, BTW, resemble those used on Baltimore's light rail (the bars: vertical up/down is go, diagonal is caution, horizontal across is stop).
Where new intersections are being created, or where there are train/road intersections, the signals were turned on, but flashing. That INCLUDES the signals for the trolleys, which leads to an interesting question:
If there's a problem with the traffic lights, and they either go out or go to flash, how will it affect the train operation? When he gets to a flashing horizontal bar, does he stop, look both ways, and proceed? What happens if he comes to a blank signal, assuming the train power is being supplied by an auxiliary source and is unaffected?
Michael
Is NYC TRANSIT aka BMT LINES still alive?
Sounds like he's an MIA.
Doug aka BMTman
Another reason to vote for McCain. Bring our veterans/railfans home!
He posted a couple of posts last week. When someone asked where he's been he said he was like Charlie of the MTA!!!
I saw one time a R38 train on the A line carrying a designation sign of the old Nassau Street R rush hour service and up to now they still haven't remove it was brown color I remember it. They eliminated the rush hour R in 1988 because of the new Nassau St Z service that had arrive on 11/12/88 and that same day took alot of changes in effect in the subway.
The Nassau St. special R (in the brown diamond) was eliminated in November of 1987, not in 1988. And it wasn't eliminated to make room for the Z, but was removed to ease congestion on the 4th Ave line, which was monumental back then. It's funny that the brown diamond R train only lasted on maps for about 6 months, from May 1987 until the newer maps came out in December of 87. Until then, the Nassau St. R line was as yellow as the Broadway R.
And contrary to the maps, the R special ran in both directions, and many of them originated and terminated at Metropolitan Ave, not Chambers. St. In 1987, half of all morning rush trains from Metropolitan Ave. were labeled as an R special which went to 95th St.
I read the Newsday article. It bought the line that the MTA plans to build the LIRR to GCT, and the Second Avenue subway as far as 63rd St. It said the only argument is whether the Second Ave should be full length.
The truth is, the MTA is only planning on funding PART of the LIRR to GCT, and a STUDY of PART of the Second Avenue subway. By the time the next captial plan rolls around, the MTA will be too deep in debt to do more.
Moreover, it mentions a $4.2 billion price tag for the LIRR to GCT. Is that right? That's INSANE.
So then the MTA really is smarter than the rest of us. They stall on projects that they don't want to do until they can't affoed to do them. Brilliant. $4.2B is probably on the mark when you consider the costs of the Manhattan portion of the project.
That article, by Arnold Abrams, ran Sunday & has a interesting shot of the tunnel ... it looks more like a sewer from the quantity of water in it. Another point that goes to your comment is that the completion date is T-E-N years away .... yuk.
The reason for the article was to report progress, i.e. draft of a environmental impact study is ready for release. If approved some construction could start in September ... yuk again.
Mr t__:^)
This whole thing is disgusting. If the City, State and MTA were competent, they would be setting aside the money for both projects now -- all the money -- while the economy is good. Then they would start construction in a recession, and finish in four years.
With a $4.2 billion price tag, there is your excuse to not make any improvements in NYC at all. They'll just raise the estimate for the Second Avenue Subway to $3 billion per mile. These estimates are outrages.
AGAIN THE BIDS FOR A full LENGTH SECOND SUBWAY ARE AT MOST 2 POINT 2 BILLION DOLLARS. AND THIS BID INCLUDES GLASS ELEVATORS AND MARBLE FLOORS. ANY ADDITIONIAL MONIES REQUESTED ARE FOR EMBEZZELMENT ONLY
What else is new?
It will be a dark day in Railfan Land if the LIRR ever goes through to GCT. I consider mixing PRR blood and NYC blood a mortal sin and there are many others who feel the same way. I have given the NYC the title of "Worst Railroad Ever" and I would not shed one tear if Donald Trump came in and leveled GTC and turned in into a parking lot for his new hotel. If we can't have our station, why should they have theirs.
Jeez, don't get mad at Grand Central, get mad at the Pennsy owners and Irving Mitchell Felt and the Madison Square Garden crowd. They're the ones who came up with the idea back in 1961 (apparently taking a cue from the city's aborted attempt to build a ballpark for the Dodgers above the LIRR station in Brooklyn).
In my limited travels around the New York City Subway (I must evade the police, they always try to put me in one of those demeaning plastic boxes with holes, DAMN HUMANS!!!), I discovered that in reality, there is no car shortage. Go out at night and see all those cars stored in the yards? What a waste! Well, using some pure swine ingenuity, I figured out how we can take the trains stored in the yards at night, and run them in rush hour service. I also figured out how the people of today can benefit from the Second Avenue El. Now, if the Redbirds ever become too much of a problem, we can send the old rusty ones to run down to the World's Fair, with the new ones running in the year 2000. But, why should I use these inventions to benefit you ungrateful humanoids? I shall not! I will use these inventions to benefit pigkind in our war against the human menace. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED!
I'm hoping this is a joke.
The vast majority of cars that are stored in yards at night are in service in the AM rush the next day (except weekends and most holidays, of course, when there is no rush hour).
David
But why do they have to be stored at all? They should run as much as they can, and all of this should be during the rush hour. My system has conquered the tyranny of the fourth dimension. But it will only be used for the REVOLUTION.
THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED!
Huh? The cars DO run during the rush hour. It isn't rush hour 24 hours a day! What would the fare have to be to support rush-hour service levels 24 hours a day? How many additional subway cars would be needed to allow for maintenance needs with rush-hour service levels being provided 24 hours a day? How many additional police officers would have to be hired (by the city) to ride all of these trains? How many empty subway cars would be running around at 2 AM?
As I said, this had better be a joke. A week or two's worth of postings about this would be nauseating, to say the least.
David
No, the cars would be taken from the yards and run during the rush hours. I see some people are unable to understand the versatility I have added to fourth dimensional travel.
It may take another deep mind to understand your insights-- Pigs is saying that the cars that are laid up in the yards overnight could be translated in the 4th dimension to be used during the rush hour--- As best as I can fathom your thought, I think you are speaking of virtual subway cars, perhaps similar to virtual storage on a computer--- Of course I think you may have neglected to say that these virtual subway cars could only transport virutal people--- that is those people who would normally be asleep during the day--- this is getting a little beyond me and i think i will have to consult my classic comic editions of Kant, Kafka, Wittgenstein, and the Howard Brothers---
Pigs speaks of the coming revolution--- he reminds me of the Last Poets, a group of black revolutionaries in the 60's who spoke of the coming revolution--- i mention them only because we have here the Last Piglet
No, these will be real cars brought in from their rest to run alongside their later counterparts in the rush hour. When the rush hour ends, they will be transported back to the morning to run normally, then they will run until the night and then be transported to the next rush hour. Trains will alternate which rush hour they will run and will still get much needed rest from time to time.
I get it!!! The cars will be "beamed" back through time?! Way cool, dude!
Captain, I need more power.
I think you need to speak with Tim Allen about having more power.-)
URRRNNHHHH! URRNNNHHHH!!!
Heypaul posting on Subtalk? And after all the unkind things you posted on "The Other Side of the Tracks" about subtalkers and our host!!!!! Or is this the bizzarro heypaul?
And look at to whom he's responding!
No ... Unca Dave has decided to follow the networks into the "RERUN SHOW" (coming soon to NBC) ... c'mon, bro ... Heypaul is like a good beer, a good head and foam. What more can ya ask for when out of title? :)
Dude, If the hairs on the back of your neck get itchy tommorow, might be because some of your friends are talking about you < G >
Mr rt__:^)
"Dude, If the hairs on the back of your neck get itchy tommorow, might be because some of your friends are talking about you...."
Thurston, what might they be saying?
Oh just what a nice fellow you are ;-)
Some of us have met you in person (at CI)
Mr rt__:^)
P.S. Didn't realize, until Saturday, that you've never met Heypaul, BMTman & some others who made it to the rt model show. The Heypaul took a group photo, maybe he can get it posted.
Mr rt__:^)
TD, why resurrect a thread from nearly two years ago????
Doug, I didn't. Someone else did and I just got caught by it....
Paul, have you been into the mushrooms again?
;-D
Pigs is saying that he will transport the laid up cars through TIME to when they are needed. However, if Pigs in not careful his lack of movable digits might result in paradoxes, explosions, inpolsions and whole trains suddenly ceaseing to exist. I also doubt that your invention will be as revolutionary as it seems because if the MTA can turn a deficit into a surplus then its not so far fetched that they can borrow rolling stock from different time periods.
ah---joisey mike reminds us of the very great danger of rending time's very delicate fabric--- especially if it is placed within the grasp of our young friend's hoofs--- perhaps this will be the way in which professor pigiarity plans to reverse the roles of humanswine and swinekind
Heypaul posting on Subtalk? And after all the unkind things you posted on "The Other Side of the Tracks" about subtalkers and our host!!!!! Or is this the bizzarro heypaul? Does your co-conspiritor know you've broken your vow of anti-subtalkism?
Look at the date... It seems you are responding to an old post from the archives
Absolutely correct! My bad!
Maybe, since these folks can time-travel, the post from the past hasn't happened yet.
Wow ... there are posts really coming out of the woodwork now ... the original post is dated February 22nd, 2000 .... this can only be .. the ghost of heypaul ....
Maybe this will all go away once Scooby Doo comes out on June 14th.
--Mark
this gave me an idea of not scrapping the redbirds in case the 142's go bad. scrap the ones that are in the worst shape and rebuild the ones in good condition to hold out just in case the new batch goes bad. look a SEPTA their rolling stock came out to be a headache right off the assembly line and they don't have one almond joy left to run the service. that could happen to the MTA
What we need to do is transport all the cars back about a few hours in time and leave them there. That way, the number of cars will be doubled. A benefit of this is that the MTA will never need to buy any more cars again, because if they need more cars, they'll just sent some more back in time. All that it would take to get this done is a DeLorean, a Flux Capacitor, a crazy scientist and Michael J. Fox.
Hehehe, this plan seems almost too easy...
They would have to put warnings on the trains that read:
WARNING-There is a slight but non-zero chance that this train will, without warning, suddenly disappear and return to its own time frame. If this occurs passengers will find themselves traveling along the track with nothing to counter the force of gravity. The MTA is not responsible for any injury resulting from the sudden disappearance of its trains, resulting impact as the momentum conserved by the passengers is transfered to the track structure, lineside equipment, pieces of rolling stock, signal equipment or other objects located along the right of way, and accidental contact with energized portions of the third rail. By entering this train the rider hereby acknowledges this risk and hereby absolves the MTA of responsibility for any physical or mental damage to damage to personal property. Furthermore any passenger carried into another time frame by any transit vehicle must not use his knowledge of the future to impart harm to the MTA or its public image. Any person found doing so will be banned from the subway at the MTA's discression.
Knowledge of the future? If it happened to me I'm going to the $$$$$tock market$$$$$Lotto,too$$$$$ Greed may not be good, but it works for me$$$$$ ;^>
Good idea, but an inherent problem is with the copy train. Take train 1999 (an R-62A), if we copied it 5 times, we would have many differently aged versions. If the older one was to crash, then the newer ones would suddenly disappear, opening up Joisey Mike's scenario. Maybe this will be good, as it will allow human society to grind to a halt, at which time the pigs can strike with heavy blows, permanently crippling human civilization and placing the filthy humans under the dominion of the great swine.
Oh darn, there goes that idea. Something always comes up that ruins my plan. Just like the time I wanted a million dollars, and my friend said that I couln't just steal it because that's illegal.
Then we'd have to deal with PORK barrel spending.-)
Rim shot!!
so, hows the pigvolution goin????????
It was not televised, but won the election in Florida. :)
Posted by R30 on Thu May 30 23:04:55 2002, in response to Re: Solving the car shortage, posted by Pigs of Royal Island on Tue Feb 22 18:34:13 2000.
How are these old threads able to come out of the archives? I didn't think that was possible.
Just fiddle with the article number in the URL you see right now.
I can't imagine why anyone would want to respond to a post from February 2000, though. In other words, use with discretion.
It's too bad we can't respond to the old WWWBoard messages, I'd really like to revive the thread were some crazy guy claimed to have been on a train over the Queensborough Bridge in 1988.
Hmmm... Mat Groenig must be hanging out with David Cole of the nth Ward.
Peace,
Andee
LOL;^> ;^> ;^>
And the really, really, really great thing is by going back to the World's Fair, the damper vents on the R-33WFs will be working again! And then they can last for another 36 years! Isn't that lovely?
And the R-32s will be brand spanking new once again!
And the R-10s will be ripping and roaring on the A once again!!
And the Triplexes will still be running!!!
This is too good to be true.
What, no HI-V's, LO-v's, Flivers, WF's, Standards, Q cars, BU's on the BRT........
ONIK !!! OINK!! ( pigs-of-royal-island ) ONIK !!! OINK !!!
I think you need to join heypaul in his (padded) office.
-Hank
I will not be made fun of!
MARK MY WORDS! You humans will one day beg me for mercy, and I WILL NOT give it to you. The rule of swine is near.
You keep saying how the Revolution will not be televised, but will the newspapers cover it? How about National Public Radio, they cover everything?
So does CNN, especially from the other side
No, sorry. Following the PIGVOLUTION, all media outlets will be replaced with 24-hour, 100% pigpoganda. All records will be altered to show that the pigs always controlled the world, and that humans have always been subservient species. Anyone who opposes will be vaporized.
"Those who control the present control the past, those who control the past control the future" George Orwell, '1984'
Stop the World, I want to get off.
Why I am I getting a Dogbert vibe here. (you know Dogburt, Dilbert dog who dreams of world domination and control of the human race) Same thing, different animal
Hey Paul, I am going to have to call your old neighbor and Classmate Judge Judy to have you committed to Creedmore for observation
WHAT THE #### ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????
He's not talking, he's grunting, remember? (With a few squeals and oinks thrown in for good measure.) :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, he's just HAMMING it up.
Double rim shot!!!
I think this is a great thread to revive just with the anti-human propiganda toned down.
I heard a rumor about more shuttle trains planned to connect Brooklyn BMT N R B D F Q lines below Prospect Park to the IRT and IND 2 5 lines at near Nostrand Ave. Any truth to this? Or of a possible extension of the 2 5 lines into Sheepshead Bay?
No one is seriously considering any transportation improvments of any kind in Brooklyn, although politicians commission "studies" all the time to get their picture in the weekly newspapers.
Did anyone catch the new commerical from TicTac?
It shows a girl sitting in what appears to be an R-62 or R-62A.
A part of the interior wall of the train has the markings of scratchitti, but the window is clean.
Funny thing is, you can't quite catch the number of the subway car as she departs. All you can make out is the last number is a "3". I'm not sure what station it is either. Also, they covered up the NYC TRANSIT mirror-like emblem that is on all the cars. Instead, an "S" is on the emblem - similar to the "S" used on the Shuttle trains.
I have not seen it yet but I'll wager that it was on track 4 at Grand Central on the Shuttle. That is where alot of commericals are filmed.
Yeah, I just saw that ad on Dateline in between the story about the multi millionaire that got married. It looks like it takes place at Jamaica Ctr or someplace with high ceilings, but I didn't get that good of a look. It's an R-62, with an S replacing the MTA sign on the sign of the train, if I'm not mistaken, the train was from the number 6, pelham line. (Yellow sticker). The windows are redbird windows.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
Damn friggin PC Konked out on me 2 week ago, Just got it back. Now I have to reset the Cookies here.
PC's are the worst. thats why i started using Mac.
Let's not start this.
Macs suck even worse, It really is worse when they crash.
Glad to see my fellow Hoosier back.-)
Yes, I'm back...
Hoosier eh? Where in the Great State of Indiana do you Hail from?
Hopefully HAMmond.
I know some people from Hanover and French Lick...:-)
But I myself hail from South Bend-Mishawaka area. Clay Township
I'm also from South Bend. If you know where Town & Country Shopping Center is, we used to live almost literally up the road from it. Go up Hickory Rd. to Corby, then hang a right onto Whitehall Drive, and that's our old neighborhood. I remember when T&C opened, and when Pin Oak Manor and Jamestown Apartments were built. We moved to New Jersey in April of 1967. The biggest culture shock has been Grape Rd. Hard to believe the way it's been built up. Back in the 60s, that area was all farmland.
I was born on Sherman Street in DownTown South Bend, Then we moved to Castle Point Apartment Complex, Then we moved to Carriage Hills Subdivision Hanson Court, In a Big House of my Mothers design and build, we moved out in 1977, Moved back to Castle Point, Came back to Carriage Hills and lived on the Street next to Hanson Court, called Parrish Court...Moved out in 1984, came to NY City, My mother Got heart problems there, Moved back to South Bend, and Castle Point and lived with my Father who commuted regularly to New York, Moved out of South Bend for the last time with My Father and Mother to New York...
While my Older brother went to Purdue University. our family was split, because he wanted to stay in SB to finish High School.
Interestingly enough, my sister and I were born in different hospitals (I was born in Memorial; she in St. Joseph's) and were baptized in different churches (me-St. Anthony's; she-Little Flower, where we became parisioners). If you remember the State Theater downtown, it's reopened now. I used to go there as a kid.
Sorry for the off-topic post. It's a thrill to meet a fellow South Bend native.
I was also born in St. Josephs, Aug 8 1974 to be exact. You were in South Bend a generation before me.
Ahhhhh, Nostalgia. I still dream about South Bend sometimes. usually about the Old Neighborhood, Castle Point, The malls and Downtown.
This is approximately my world...
if you took Ironwood on th emap North you would have reached my Subdivision.
I went to Swanson Highlands school for a Time then I went to Darden.
Yes, I was long gone by that time. I know that intersection of Ironwood and Cleveland Rd; in fact, I can still find my way around town without a map.
I also dream about downtown South Bend from time to time, specifically the State Theater. Downtown doesn't look anything like the way it did back in the 60s.
I'd like to suggest that we continue our reminiscing privately. It is, after all, off topic. So email me when you have a chance. It's great to have another South Bend native on Subtalk!
Sure, Your Email address has been copied and stored. Yeah,I agree Its great to have another South Bend Native on Subtalk
Wow..Of course I remember Town and Country Shopping center, But I think University Park Mall outclassed it later. Both were great places to shop, and Hang out. I lived in Clay Township..though, so the nearest mall was University park Mall
University Park didn't exist when we lived there, but I've been by there since then. It's in a strategic spot, isn't it? Right where Grape Rd., SR 23, and the Toll Road form a triangle. It's hard to believe how built up that area is now. The Toll Road was dedicated two months before I was born.
I also remember when the Hesburgh Library was under construction on the Notre Dame campus.
Where exactly in Clay Township did you live?
If you took Cleveland Road towards Grape Road and University park Mall, you should hang a left onto Ironwood Road, Travel Up Ironwood Road to Carriage Hills Subdivision..I lived on to Streets during my Lifetime there..
A. Hanson Court
B. Parrish Court
If you took Cleveland Road towards Grape Road and University park Mall, you should hang a left onto Ironwood Road, Travel Up Ironwood Road to Carriage Hills Subdivision..I lived on two Streets during my Lifetime there..
A. Hanson Court
B. Parrish Court
And also on the corner between Ironwood Road and Cleveland Road is Castle Point Apartments. Another 1/3 of the beginning of my Life was spent here too.
Took the 8:38PM Jamaica-Oyster Bay train from Jamaica to Mineola today. There were no automatic announcements until the train was just E/O New Hyde Park. Out of the clear blue sky came an announcement "This stop is Penn Station". About a minute later as we were passing Merrillon Av it made the announcement "This is the train to Oyster Bay, the next stop is Long Island City". Sounds like someone screwed up. How could they even have such an announcement? After all LIC is a western terminal and Oyster Bay is an Eastern Terminal. How could a train going to Oyster Bay have LIC as its next stop? I kinda wished my car was parked at O.Bay instead of Mineola so I could hear the rest of the announcements!!!
Hehehe.
Man, I thought the M-2s were a messed up design....
I don't even get how this kind of a system gets messed up.
How does the train know where it is anyway??
Maybe the C-3s run Windows?
I also love the on/off HVAC system, the flaky doors, and the wacky toilet flush. You hit the button to flush, it flushes, stops, then flushes again 5 secs later. I've heard the cars also do stuff like run the heat and A/C at the same time.
I guess they know where they are the same way that LI Bus buses know where they are. Presumably, someone tells the system where its is starting and which route it is following. The system then keeps track of how far it has gone. The last part is verrrry old technology, as anyone who has ever driven an automobile knows.
I believe it also "recalibrates" at each opening of the door.
Or just as often, there are no announcements at all. This is a real problem with the Greenport Shuttle at Ronkonkoma. It pulls into Track 1 a little before 7 pm for the run to Greenport. There always are a number of people waiting on or near the platform for the 7:14 to Penn Station. Many of them hav flown into MacArthur airport and aren't familiar with the LIRR. When the automatic annoucement ("This station is Ronkonkoma. This is the train to Greenport. The next station is Medford.") isn't working, which happens at least a couple of times a week, people invariably try to board the train, thinking it's for Penn Station.
To Simon and all you other guys this side of the Atlantic.......
set your videos!
Saturday 26th February 8:55pm-10:40pm Channel-BBC2
The Taking of Pelham one-two-three
video plus# 82818713
......
Regards
Rob :^)
i own the video, but thank u for telling me ;-)
I wonder if they'll show the theater version, or the watered-down TV version with all the F words omitted.
They'll just substitute it with "Bloody", Tosser, Sod etc.
I am sure we will get the full version, at least I hope so.
Simon
Swindon UK
Thanks again Rob. I am making special arrangements to record this film. I am using two recorders as I usually manage to get one wrong. I have been waiting for years for this film.
Just heard on 1010wins that a railfan broke into the tower at 57th & 7th, pulled a lever and caused an N train to stop hard causing passengers to fly all over the place.
That's NOT a railfan, that's a vandal!! Lock 'em up & toss the key!!!
Darius McCollum has some really serious problems...
What was the TO who allowed him to pilot an E train as a 16 yo kid in 1981 smoking that day? He's convnced he's a TA employee, so yeah, he does have some issues to deal with. Perhaps a quick stay in the rubber room at Creedmore ...
Agreed....
Peace,
Andee
Andee--- remarks like yours give lunatics like
me a bad name--- although it has been said that
people like me give lunatics a bad name---i will
have to discuss this matter with my lawyer to
consider whether i should file an uncivil suit claiming defacement of character
Is it a Full Moon again, already.
And, what did you do with those 13 busses?
Peace,
Andee
Heypaul,
Don't you mean definition of character?
allan--- i did not mean definition of character--- i choose my words very carefully--- i always have my 1956 edition of webster's new collegiate dictionary at hand--- i suggest you look up the definition of definition of character
well, that joke went over your head.
no allan--- i caught the joke--- i just used your remarks as a straight line to be able to tell you to look up the definition of the definition of character--- it had a nice sound to it :-)
Paul, we are well aware that you are not the only lunatic in this city.
Although I personaly can vouch for your insanity, you were in no way involved in the antics of the 57th St. Tower Lunatic.
Doug aka BMTman
I didn't think you did it. Now I do.
Here is the story from todays news
http://www.mostnewyork.com/2000-02-22/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-57650.asp
Peace,
Andee
Unfortunately the use of the term railfan has a negative effect on all of us. The press should be more careful with their wording! How about a class action libel suit!
Problem is that the offender is a railfan. Unfortunatly his actions cast a bad light on the rest of us.
Best thing to do:
Unless you are a TA worker (or have the right connections):
Do not carry anything that would be considered TA issue (Subway car keys, a flashlight that has any indication that it was ordered by the TA, a reflective vest with the NYCT logo on the back. To do so and get "caught" can result in charges of posession of burglery tools and impersonation. Your best bet? Leave them home.
If Rudy gets his hands on this one there will be no peace for any of us.
However, it will blow over (it always does).
therefore the press and or media must use all of the accussed's labels
White,black ,asian ,other,male,female,student,retiree,professional,liberal,veteran,treehugger,beachcomber. ........
but they will pick the most convient
Don't the interlockings have approach locking to prevent routes and signals being changed in front of a train? And that wasn't vandalism, it was just an excited railfan who wanted to play tower operator.
you're right, that's one of the basic tenets of interlocking design.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in some systems it is possible to set a signal back to red in advance of a train, but then the delay timer runs to ensure that the train in fact has halted before the switch lever may be moved. Have you tried playing around with NXSYS?
dave
How long does a train take before it stops at a red signal automatically? Is it long enough to stop the train after a homeball controlling a trailing point (I think that's what it's called when you can only go one way or not at all) switch is red, before the train derails?
Now what I would like to see are all the circuit diagrams for the signal system to work. And of course, it would be a lot more complicated than if a computer was used.
What I meant was this: (again, as I understand it)
When a train shunts the track relay of a given approach block, the Home Signal in advance starts a timer, the duration of which corresponds with the train travelling the length of the block at a given (slow) speed. If the Homeball is pulled "normal" (red) then only when the timer has timed out will the lever for the switch in advance be released. This gives the train a chance to stop in the rear of the changing aspect. If the train is travelling at sufficient speed not to stop in time, as the operator was expecting a permissive indication, and the train overruns the home signal and is tripped, this will happen before the timer runs out, and the switch will not be set against the oncoming train. If the train overruns the home signal after the timer has run out, it is ensured (by the length of the timer) to be travelling at a low enough speed that even if the switch in advance has been set in conflict, the tripper will stop the train before it fouls the switch.
Also the design of the computer software is subject to the same design rules as of electro-mechanical interlockings, and is equally difficult --if you take out all of the issues specific to computers themselves! Computers do offer easier flexibility for the future. But no computer has the common sense and critical thinking abilities of an experienced towerman.
dave
Is this how it works or how you think it works? On the real railroad if you want to change a route or knock down a signal to something more restrictive with an approaching train you have to start a 5 or 3 min timer. After the timer runs down you can change the signals and switches, but until the timer runs I believe the train gets a green. This is because if a long freight train gets a red dropped on it the engineer will go BIE (might be a broken rail after all) and often parts of his train will derail. This is why I was amazed that the pseudo towerman could set a red infront of a train.
That's how I THINK it works, as I said. I keep waiting for someone to correct me with a definitive answer, so's I can learn something.
dave
In traditional railroad approach locking, the approach section
locks the signal lever. The signal lever in turn locks the
switch lever. Once you've reversed a signal lever, and there is
a train on the approach section to that signal, which on the RR
can be miles and miles, you can't drop the ball again until
a timeout has expired.
On NYCT plants it works a little differently. For example,
take a GRS pistol-grip unit lever machine. If the signal lever
is reversed and there is a train on the approach section, which
is much shorter, usually just the block before the signal,
then the signal lever is locked against completing the normal
movement. You can push the lever in partially, and as soon as you
do the signal drops to red, but until the timer goes off, you
can't push the lever all the way in. Because the signal lever is
not fully normal, it mechanically locks the associated switch lever
or levers. So yes it works the way Dave B. explained.
Actually that was an idiot..No RailFan.
Idiot is far too mild a term to describe that individual. Identify him so that he will be known and forever shunned by the mature rail enthusiast community
I don't think idiot even makes sense. This person sounds like a real loony (and not the cartoon or the coin either!).
An excited Railfan????!!! Maybe that is they way the look at things in Joisey. That is not had we do things in a civilized society in NY.
He could have caused some serious damage and injuries.
No true Railfan or Subway Buff would do something like that. We respect the rules of the road.
Excited railfan my fanny! That was a criminal act of sabotage that had the potential for causing injury or even death to innocent people. I hope they lock him up for a long, long time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When I posted this I was unaware of the whole story, but I have broken into my fare share on interlocking towers (well I didn't "break" and none of them actually "interlocked" any more) and I just think that interlocking towers are just about the coolest places in the world. I thought it was some railfan who happened to find an unlocked door and was so overtaken with the fact that he was standing inside an interlocking tower, his hands got the best of him and he did a little fiddling. How many of you could resist pulling that lever or that pistol grip and pushing it back again if you knew that nobody would ever know or notice. Before I learned that this guy was a loonie I just thought he was an idiot for not making sure his plant was clear before setting a new route.
Excited railfan? HARRRRUMPH! What he did was plainly dangerous and could have caused serious injury. Did they say what kind of train it was - R68, R32 or R40. If an R32 or R40, there could have been people walking through the train (no I AM NOT saying it is right to do so while the train is in motion but people do it anyway) since the end doors are not locked. A particularly worriesome scenario is coming to a sudden stop while someone is alighting between the unprotected "B" ends of an R40, a hazardous and ill-advised act in and of itself. The real possibility of being thrown to the rails then exists.
Things like this give us more civilized railfans a bad name and might cause the police to be more vigilant about our comings and goings. Hopefully with the arrest this incident will blow over.
Wayne
I wouldn't call this guy a railfan.
Clark Palicka
Keep an eye out for the Daily News tomorrow about this matter; I just got a call from one of their reporters who is running a "sidebar" article about true transit buffs (well, hopefully that's how it will read).
My worst fear is that Howard Safir will classify this as another case of union sabatoge. The strike injuction by judge Pesce is still in force by the MTA, the city since removed the order. I'm surprised no one cried "train buffs!" when the interlocking signals were changed at 34 St and 8th Avenue on the A line. I guess we are a forgotten deal.
Harry,
The reason is as I stated in an earlier part of this discussion, a true transit buff has full respect for the rules of the road and would not do something like that. I will admit that some get carried away on some Museum tours or fantrips but those are "sanctioned" and under full supervision (I am explaining the behavior not excusing it).
I hope they lock th e guy up for a long time. He is a danger to himself and the rest of the public.
In general, buffs are looked at as a bad omen by TA employees and society in general. I had my pic snapped coming into 14/6 with a work train today during the broken rail fiasco by a gent using flash. Being sort of a buff myself, I can understand the rush of the chase and the desire to live the fond memories of the youth but it only takes one bad apple to ruin it for everyone else, which was not my original complaint. I didn't hear the original news article but wouldn't be surprised at the portrayal of decreased integrity of new journalism today if the word "railfan" was used. Vandal is more like it but the story has to be sensational at all costs to provide the all more important advertisement revenue, even if it means ruining the lives of the 34/8th's signal maintainers portrayed as sabateurs just to make papers sell and politicians look more important than they are really worth. I wish I had been contacted by this Robert Ingrassia so I could have told them that I am NOT a functionally illiterate train operator.
I heard a story on WINS news this morning about someone who got inside the 57th tower and threw a single to Red causing an N train to go into emergency braking.
Anyhow, today's Daily News has a story on this incident on page 2. Apparently the wacko has been pulling various TA related pranks over a 20 year period (he seems to be out of jail often enough for these stunts?). The article said the culprit stole an E train, taking it from 34th Street to the World Trade Center before he was apprehended.
Doug aka BMTman
Who left the E at 34th to brgin with? Somebodies not to alert.
Thanks for the info about Bushwick terminal.
The E train operator was out sick, so he had his friend (Darius) operate that train, it was not a E it was an A
You're confusing the Keron Thomas case of ten years ago where the T/O was on vacation and the kid signed in as the T/O and made off with an A train.
The wacko in question here is a guy named McCollum (or something like that).
Also, I wouldn't characterize this guy or Thomas as "railfans" (I would more likely call them subway-vandals) since they end up giving the rest of us a bad name.
Doug aka BMTman
He didn't steal that train in 1981, he was allowed to operate it with permission from the train operator. Supposedly, this kid operated the train from 34th St. to the WTC without incident.
I played with GP7's (under the engineer's supervision) when I was 14 Years old.
And I was running PCC cars at 16. Talk about mis-spent youth - but it was fun, fun, fun. And it still is 45 years later.
How did they find out about this incident, did the T/O rat on himself??? I mean if it was without incident how else would they find out???
Peace,
Andee
IIRC a TSS happened to be on the platform at WTC as the train came in.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks
Again I ask, whjy didn't this interlocking have approach locking?! You know, the 5 or 3 minute timer that has to run out before you can knock down the signal and slect a new route.
You've mangled the article. He's been an evil subway fan since 1981, when he operated an E train from 34st to WTC. He's pulled other stunts over the years, and now he broke into a signal tower. There was another kid less than 10 years ago (I was in HS, and my freinds wanted to know what I was doing that day!) where he signed in as a MM who was on vacation, and took a train.
-Hank
If the prosiding judge was a railfan with a sense of humor, he would sentence the guy to be chained to a bench on the N platform of the BMT Canal Street station, and told he can leave when the next train over the bridge to Brooklyn arrives.
Or make the guy ride on a WF R-33 on a hot day.-)
R-33s don't operate in the summer.
I suggest chaining him standing on the roof of an N Train going down Sea Beach, and Cracking his head open with an overpass. or Tunnel Entrance.
That could be a life sentence.
I didn't mangle the story.
I just neglected to mention that the Daily News story also said that the same guy stole an E train almost 20 years ago.
Maybe I should have made that clear.
Doug aka BMTman
My fiend still mocks me to this day that that kid beat me to it, especially since the A is my favorite line...
Let's see - how many of us rank the A line as being their favorite? Myself, yourself, William Padron...
Were you lucky enough to have ridden on the R-10s when they ruled supreme on the A?
I dfefinitely remember them when they ruled the C and you could tell they had power. I'm not sure if I rode them on the A (I was born in 1973)but I definitely remember flying down CPW on the D and A, though not specifically in an R-10.
I always loced the single seats in the corner and the small fans scattered on the ceiling. As a kid, I would beg my mother to get the C home instead of the D when I would go with her to work in midtown. Unfortunately, I didn't realize that I was subjecting her to a strictly local ride from 34th St to BPB after working for 8 hours or so...
The R-10s were bumped off the A line in October of 1977 by the slant R-40s, although they still made an appearance now and then. I caught an A train of those venerable speedsters for the last time in 1979 or 1980, and during the preceeding years rode on many, many A trains of R-10s. An express dash up CPW on those cars was one of life's simple pleasures.
While the R-10s certainly weren't whisper quiet, they weren't that bad back in the late 60s. I never had to hold my ears while the train I was on was roaring along CPW.
Here is the Daily News story.
Here is the Daily News story.
Does anyone run into broken escalators at your subway stations? Are they repaired in a timely fashion. Please e-mail me your worst horror story, time you had armloads of Christmas packages or both kids and a bag of groceries.
I am a graduate student at Columbia University writing an article on broken subway escalators. This story will be posted on our student publication website www.nyc24.com. Please e-mail me what you think about this problem, along with you name and age.
Also I am interested in writing about this discussion board. Please respond how you heard about it, and what you get out of it. I need your responses ASAp to make my deadline. Thank you for the help.
Sincerely, cecily barnes
Broken escalators are a fact of transit life. The worst thing I can say about escalators is how they tend to chew up fingers and clothing when kids or the elderly fall on them.
And in regard to this message board, I am researching the "public use of internet terminals in subway stations" so I thought I would try to get public input via the internet. I began by searching for subway sites, and I know that there are enough people out there that like transit related issues, so I figured there must be a venting venue for them. However, I'm surprised at how many people bother to respond to relatively dry chat.
There are just a handful of stations that even have escalators.
If you search the internet under NYC subways, this is what comes up. It is the most comprehensive source of information available on the subject.
(Dry chat)
If you think the chat is dry, you should have seen the debate between transit riders and transit workers just prior to the near strike.
"Dry" is a matter of perception. How my wife can talk for hours about lighthouses seems incredible to me; while I appreciate her interest in them I certainly don't share it. But she can discuss Fresnel lenses ad infinitum and knows exactly how many steps it is to the top of almost every one on the east coast (from experience in climbing them all, I might add). The same holds for true for my interest in transit. My wife is patient with my interest and has actually come on a couple of railfan trips, but it certainly isn't her favorite pastime, and she wouldn't pretend to understand much of what we discuss here. It's all a matter of what we enjoy most. One of our four children is an ardent railfan and our youngest also enjoys the subways (and occasionally posts here too), and one of our grandsons is turning into a railfan as well. So I think the time I spend here is time well spent.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well you both should compromise and take the LIRR to Montauk and you can take a cab to the lighthouse there.
BTW, if you have an LIRR bike-pass you could ride the LIRR to Montauk and then bike from town to the Lighthouse on a not-so-hot day.
Doug aka BMTman
I haven't been on a bike in years, however. I used to ride occasionally near our NC home but after having a couple of bones fused in my left ankle about eight years back it became too difficult. My wife rides from time to time, though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The esculators in the State Street Subway in Chicago are over 40 years old and are constantly breaking down. You'd think they would have replaced them by now... Also the esculator at Howard Termainal is broken at least once a week.
I've never been a fan of esculators. I always use the stairs for the exercise.
I was searching for information on the 2nd Ave Subway and came upon this site. Exploring the site I encountered the message board and I have been here ever since
-Age: 24
The esclators at Flushing Main Street, which seemingly took abt 3 years to install, are frequently disabled, since our youth have been keeping busy sabotaging them...
www.forgotten-ny.com
[The esclators at Flushing Main Street, which seemingly took abt 3 years to install, are frequently disabled, since our youth have
been keeping busy sabotaging them...]
I just have trouble believing management when they attribute escalator woes to "vandalism."
The only easy way to "disable" an esculator is to hit the emergency stop button. It should activate an alarm, but oddly enough, many of the esculators in Chicago "L" stations just simply stop if you press the button. I believe it requires a key to restart them.
The emergency stop buttons at Main St. are in plain sight, making them easy targets for vandalism...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Since there is no damage to the escalators, it would not be accurate to catagorize their "emergency stop mode" as vandalism but rather as "horseplay".
Doug aka BMTman
I found this site a few years ago when I was going through the links page at northeast.railfan.net That took me to the related "Grand Central" page about NYC area commuter rail. This was way back when the page was still on the k2nesoft.com server. Then having gotten my fill of commuter rail, I didn't come back for a while untill I was researching railway signaling and Infoseek pointed me back here, I looked around some more, found Sub Talk and was here to stay.
Although I realize that no-one should answer this question, I'm curious how anyone would sabotage an escalator. (The why I won't even touch!)
It's true, there aren't that many escalators on the system; usually they're only where absolutely necessary, like the deep-tunnelled stations at 5th and Lexington Avenues on the E train. Consequently, when they fail it's a major inconvenience. I use the 5th avenue stop pretty frequently, and there's nothing quite like the look on the face of someone confronting a very LONG staircase, especially if they're at all less than fit.
For me, it's not as big a deal, I'm able-bodied and I tend not to remember very long after running into a breakdown. When I'm carrying big packages, I take the bus or a cab if I know I won't be able to go down stairs, and I just budget that extra expense into the purchase.
How did I find this board? My father's a model railroader. I found his copy of the 1976 book "Uptown, Downtown," written by Stan Fischler, a sports writer (especially on hockey) and knowledgeable railfan. That gave me the bug, and I've been following this site for four years.
This might come as a surprise to you, but a vast majority of non-functioning escalators that subway riders encounter are in fact NOT broken. What happens is that the High and Junior High schoolers find it hilarious to inconvenence people by pushing the emergency STOP button that is on the front or rear of escalator units. I believe there was even a piece on TV news about this around a month ago. Most often a station attendant merely has to reactivate the escalator with a key that allows access to the start button.
There is always an incident like that at B'way/East New York and Jay Street/Boro Hall stations.
Doug aka BMTman
The uptown escalator at West 4 has been out the last couple of times I've been there, and that's just been rebuilt, so I can only attribute it to vandalism.
I was at East New York over the weekend and was pleasantly surprised to see three working escalators side by side.... When was the last time any of the escalators on the 4th Ave. side of Union Square worked?
The escalators at Union Square are owned and maintained by the apartment building above the station.
David
>>The escalators at Union Square are owned and maintained by the apartment building above the station.
Well, huh. That does explain a lot. How about the adjacent elevator? TA must be committed to maintaining that, now that they've made all the BMT platforms accessible.
The elevators are NYC Transit's. They are being installed for ADA compliance in conjunction with the station rehabilitation that's still underway.
David
How about including the escalators at the Whitehall St Ferry Terminal? They're perpetually OOS.
-Hank
The "new" escalators at Flushing Main street are always broken. They are broken so often that garbage piles up on the steps.
Where the seats on the Standards and the R1/9 Wider or was I smaller.
Will we ever see cushioned seats on the subways again?
Well the seats on the standards and r1/9's were not individually contoured. I think there was more room on them. If I am not mistaken the early Kawasaki IRT cars were really poorly designed for the American contours.
As a result of the increasing percentage of the American public who are overweight, people come equipped with cushioned seats, relieving the MTA of the need to provide and maintain a cushioned transit seat. I, on the otherhand, being weight challenged, bring an inflatable duck life preserver with me for use when I unable to find a subway car equipped with wicker seats.
I was just looking at the MAP, from 1998, when I noticed that the Last Stop on the E-J-Z in Queens is Jamaica/Sutphin Blvd. This is a mistake. It shoud read Jamaica/Parsons Blvd. Anybody know of any others?
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
Which map from 1998, there were about 4 or 5 versions of it.
I have this map it was the March 1998 Edition of the mistake at jamaica sutphin blvd instead of parsons/archer.
Forget 1998 -- there is a big error on the map which is CURRENTLY on the MTA's web site (http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/maps/submap.htm) -- the Brooklyn-Queens border is in the wrong place!
The thing is, I talked to the MTA's webmaster about this, and she actually said she was going to change it. This was over three weeks ago. How long should it take to find a correct map and then scan it? Ten minutes?
This may seem like a little thing to some people. But, to me, this sort of disregard on a matter which would take virtually no effort to fix indicates complete contempt for the riders.
Ferdinand Cesarano
This map isn't scanned in.
Today, Tuesday February 22, 2000, A rail on the Brooklyn-Bound A/B tracks was split. 6th Avenue Express trains were stopped. All south-bound Q Trains were rerouted to Broadway. In Brooklyn Q Trains made all local stops in place of the D Trains. I have no clue where B/D Trains went. Most likely the Culver Express.
Gee, wouldn't it be nice to have the DeKalb to Rutgers connection about now? I hope they get it patched up before I leave for home.
I was on a Southbound B at about 1pm, and the announcement was made that "All Brooklyn-bound B trains will operate over the F Culver Line to Coney Island".
Couldn't they (the "B") just switch to the shuttle track at Ditmas and get to the West End at 9th Av?
No, because first, the connection is setup for northbound moves from the Culver to the West End (and vice versa) so this would require a pair of reverse moves to get to Coney Island. (At Ditmas to get on the shuttle ROW, and past 9th Ave to take the WE to CI)
Oh, more importantly, the ROW doesn't exist.
-Hank
Did anyone ever find out what happened here -- how long it was out. The ride home on the F was smooth.
Even when it wasn't out, the shuttle track didn't even connect to anything at Ditmas Avenue. There is the steelwork, but never a track.
I wish...I never had a chancce to ride it! ::sob::
HOW LONG WOULD IT TAKE TO FIX THIS ???
On the Manhattan Bridge.........27 years!
is this bridge rail repair fixed or will this effect the afternoon rush hour trips?
I was on a D going over the bridge about 12 noon. A couple of track workers were on board carrying a case of duct tape, and said the repair would be done in about 20 minutes.
I hope they did not forget to buy some crazy glue from that guy who always sells it on they "D" train. "...$2 in the store $1 on the train"
Peace,
Andee
Where do you think I get all my Krazy Glue from? The guys on the train. My wife has about 100 statues and miniatures and figureines - she's always dusting them and always breaking them! More than half of them have been patched up. Plus she even threw one at me when I wouldn't get her cigarettes in the middle of the night (she's since atoned for it). Plus having Krazy glue around comes in handy for putting those light panels over the doors on R44s (which are forever falling down) back in place. I even fixed one out on SI (#409).
Wayne
I went to the Sâo Paulo Metro's website. This is a very good site in terms of the stuff they show for their stations and the info for the system. You can click on a station and it will tell you how the station is setup (side platforms, etc.), the maximum capacity of the station and transfers. Right now they have three lines with four other lines in construction or planning. They are making an express line along line 3 (red), I don't know if it will be a four track like NYC. The fare is very cheap, R$1.40, about 78¢, US dollars. Has anyone here ever rode the Metro? I used to live in Sâo Paulo with my aunt and grandmother there during the summer when I was younger, however I never got the chance to ride the subway. I lived in Sâo Bernado do Campo (the middle bottom of the map). The closest line to there is line 1 (blue). There is probably no chance of the subway being extended to there because the distance is much longer than the map suggests. Sâo Bernado has extensive private bus systems and a "trolleybus" electric bus system that has its own right of way.
Something diffrent for you guys
When they eventually open the south side and close the north side, this is how i think the service should run. This idea could work:
B-145th St or Bedford Pk-Bx to 34th st-Rush Hours.
B-57th St-7th Av to Coney Island all times except nights and weekends.
B-36th St to Coney Island-Nights and weekends.
D-205th St to 34th St-All times.
M-Metropolitan Av to Coney Island-weekdays 6a-9p.
M-Metropolitan Av to Myrtle Av-nights,weekends.
N-Ditmars Blvd Astoria to Coney Isand-exp 59th st-4th av to/from 57th st wkdys(skips dekalb av).
N-Ditmars Blvd to Coney Island-local. weekends.
Q-71st Contiental av to Brighton Beach via 63rd St-wkdys 6a-9p exp in bklyn and manhattan.
Q-71st Contiental Av to Coney Island via 63rd St nights,weekends. local in bklyn, express in manhattan.
V-57th St-6th Av to Grand Street-all times.
Agreed on the "V" count at least - introducing it as a shuttle would be a good way to "break in" the designation before they make a more permanent route of it. The other suggestions aren't bad either = "M" to be Brighton service the way I read it?
Wayne
How about V to Church Av. weekdays, and to Metropolitan evenings and weekends.
What's with this obsession about running Bway trains through 63rd. St? The simplest plan is to duplicate the 86-88 diversions, substituting a "V" train for the old "S", from Continental to Grand St weekdays, cutting it back to a shuttle to Bway Lafayette all other times. The only problem there is that Grand St doesn't have a crossover near it, so the V would have to share 1 track from south of W4th St to Grand, impacting on the number of trains that could be sent there.
(What's the obsession with Broadway through 63rd?)
Split service takes more cars than through service, because of the over-lap and turn-around. We have a car shortage, and although the R143s might get in in time, I'd rather see them used to increase the number of trains a little, rather than have two sets between 34th and 59th.
I still think it would make morse sense. The B will be split, the D will terminate at Grand The Q will run 24/7 on Bdwy, and the M will go to Coney Island via the Brighton M-F as a local. 57/6 will be closed. 5 minute walk to 7th. Just my opinion
I noticed when they talk about the abandoned stations, they forgot to mention the one between Dekalb avenue and Grand street: Myrtle Avenue. Why was this station only one side? When did it open/close? What happened to the mural that they used to have at Myrtle Avenue? Help! Help!!
This has been covered many times, Myrtle Ave was there before the reroute of the Manhattan Bridge Christie Street Connection.
I won't go into details since my spellng has somehow left me for the day.
I've been riding the Brighton Line for at least 40 years, and I remember the train stopping at Myrtle years ago, but I never really thought about why there wasn't a Myrtle Ave station on the other side. That doesn't say much for my curiosity. Was it part of a sinister plot to get people to leave Brooklyn and not be able to return?
I second Simon's request for information about this.
I was just checking the station information section on the site, but I did not find any information.
There was one on the other side. It was demolished when the DeKalb junctions were rebuilt. See Brennan's Guide to Disused and Abandoned Subway Stations for more information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anyone know if the mezzanine above Myrtle Avenue station exists ?
Is it used for storage ? Is it sealed ?
Was part of it demolished when the south-bound platform was removed ?
I don't remember the station in service, but I thought this was one of those that had separate fare controls and entrances for the two platforms, not a mezzanine.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's some information on Myrtle Avenue at Brennan's Guide to Disused Subway Stations. The mural was vandalized a few years ago.
Here's a quick answer (you can look up the rest at Joe Brennan's site).
When the Dekalb Av track complex (and it is complex) was redesigned prior to the Chrystie St connection activation in the late 60's they had to remove the southbound platform at Myrtle Av to make room for the tracks coming from the south side of the Manhattan Bridge (yes I know they did even before that). If you take a ride on the D or Q and look out one of the side windows very carefully you will see some of the ramps that were closed off as part of the redesign.
The artwork was vandalized over many years and never repaired.
Southbound approaching De Kalb you can see the white tile of the curtain wall (the platform and side wall is gone) of the Myrtle Avenue station. Northbound, more is visible. The Globe design mosaic (same as De Kalb/Pacific/36th/59th/86th [mezzanine]/95th/9 Ave [lower level] but probably a different color pattern) is buried in graffitti.
Wayne
Need some answers (all would be great but these are pretty hard). Thanks, in advance.
On March 27, 1976, the day the system opened, where did the first train leave from? Farragut North or Rhode Island Avenue? How long was it? What time did it leave?
Any answers would be appreciated. I intend to go out on the system on Monday, March 27, 2000 to honor this great system's 24th birthday.
BTW: If Metrorail follows the suit of Metrobus and makes a big gala out of the 25th anniversary next year (2001), expect something amusing like 25 cent fares or a special train (like the Silver Bus).
If no one here can give you an answer, go to your local public library and look at a mircofilm from the Washington Post, or whatever newspaper, from March 27, 1976. There has to be an article with all the details you need. I found a lot about the opening of MARTA this way.
I was at the Posts online archives earlier today and it only goes back to 1977 (1 year short). Thanks for the advice.
Some library in D.C. should have the Post's actual microfilm archives, and if you look hard enough, you can also find the microfilm files of the Washington Star. Even when newspapers go under, their morgues and microfilms usually are donated to some local college or university library (In New York, I think NYU has the Herald Tribune's old files)
According to the book "The Story of Metro", if you consider revenue service, Day One was March 29, 1976. There was a ceremonial service on March 27, 1976.
The ceremony started from 9 AM at Rhode Island Avenue station. The service ran until 6 PM. Because of an overcrowding four-car train, the end-to-end trip that should have taken eight minutes sometimes took an hour. WMATA estimated that more than 28,000 had entered that day.
The Story of Metro is written by Ronald H. Deiter. The revised edition was published in 1990. It was out of print now.
Chaohwa
Found it just now. There are reference copies of it at the Montgomery County Libraries' Davis and Gaithersburg Branches and 2 copies of the book at Wheaton. I will try to get the book sent to my branch. Do you know how long it is and how much info about opening day it has in it? Thanks in advance.
The book mentions the opening ceremony on March 27, 1976 on pages 61-63. It is in the first section of Chapter 4, the Years of Metro.
Hope that this helps.
Chaohwa
It will once I get the book! Thanks for your help.
I have that book. It's really well done. Good luck finding one.
No, you can't have my copy.
Chuck
I got the Montgomery County Library in Wheaton to send a copy to my branch. Should have it by next week so your book will be safe.
Only kidding! If you were really in a bind I'd send you my copy. I know your a good person and would send it back!
Chuck Greene
I got the Montgomery County Library in Wheaton to send a copy to my branch. Should have it by next week so your book will be safe until the library's is due.
I hope WMATA does do something special, but they'll probably have a big celebration next year for the 25th Anniversary. I've see the bus (#9343) several times, but I've never ridden on it.
Wayne
I've seen it 3 times (either at Union Station or on the way to Union Station) and went on it when it was shuttling between the Childrens Museum and Union Station. I have some pics as well.
According to the book 'The Story of Metro', a 4-car train left Rhode Island Ave at 9 AM that day.
This evening around 6 PM I received an e-mail from Robert Ingrassia from the Daily News. He said he wanted to talk to me about railfans and this website. ( Why do I always get in the middle of these things? It had nothing to do with my calling him and offering a scoop that would get him a Horwitzer Prize) I called him back by phone, but I haven't heard back from him.
You should all breathe a collective sigh of relief. Can you imagine how most of you would have felt if I was portrayed as an average railfan? I actually am disappointed, since I felt that I was about to be discovered by the mainstream society.
I would have invited him to see my R-9 motorman's cab and listen to my R-9 air compressor sounds. I would have asked his help in locating the sailor who made the key to the food locker. Then I would have read 5000 of my most asinine SubTalk posts and perhaps 1 or 2 of my good friend Pigs of Royal Island. I think Pigs deserves a public hearing of many of his truly inspired ideas.
I would have warned the reporter that if he checked into my background, there would be ugly rumors of my frequent institutionalizations coming from my impersonation of a math tutor.
I guess he must have listened to all the lies that the rest of you told about me. You people have always fought me at every turn. Dougie was perfect but I was old yellowstain.....
heypaul... I would rather you not use my nickname. It is my property, just like my strawberries. If this persists, you may have no water for 48 hours. You have been warned!
I'm surrounded by impostors. You just gave yourself away by spelling your own first name wrong ( it's Philip) and by not using your naval rank Lieutenant Commander.
I must say I thought this was the work of BATman, but was surprised to find it was the handiwork of the gentle man from Gettysburg.
[I must say I thought this was the work of BATman, but was surprised to
find it was the handiwork of the gentle man from Gettysburg.]
I would assume that the gentleman in question has a Gettysburg Address??? ;-)
I couldn't resist!
Doug aka BMTman
RIM SHOT!!
"I'm surrounded by impostors. You just gave yourself away by spelling your own first name wrong ( it's Philip) and by not using your
naval rank Lieutenant Commander."
I spelled it Philip,and so did you! :-)
you're right--- my eyes made one of the i's surrounding the l into an l---- in which case i should have said that you left out an i--- i am tired---- i can't wait to see the daily news tomorrow to see if the reporter mentions that he never spoke to me--- what an embarrassment for everyone here if he had!
I dunno. I got a call from a Daily News reporter a couple of weeks ago who wanted to do a feature on Forgotten NY at
www.forgotten-ny.com
and after I responded positively, I never heard from the guy again...
Kevin,
Funny you should mention about your web page getting publicity. About 2 weeks ago when I finished my days reading of SubTalk I started fooling around and spent about 2 hours creating a Memorial to Roosevelt Raceway page after the raceway was finally torn down. Well I was getting about 3-4 hits per day (Half of them from me updating or editing it!!!) and certainly no feedback. Well yesterday when I got up and put on my WebTV to go to SubTalk I noticed I had about 30 Email messages with subjects having to do with Roosevelt Raceway. So I went to my Xoom counter statistics and discovered I had about 350 hits for the day!!!! And although I did try to put the site on a bunch of search engines, even if it did get on them it wouldn't get that many hits so fast. Well while reading the emails I discovered that they mentioned my site on the U.S. Trotting Assn. Newsletter and put a link to it!!! My day in the sun!!! And to think I was just fooling around one night.
The reporter called me, but I wasn't home. In fact, I was riding
the commuter train at the time...
I was also contanced and I plan to write a short responce. Don't worry, I won't say anything that will get railfans shot on sight.
He also e-mailed me. But I was in NYC to take photos on Redbirds yesterday. When I came back, I tried to contact him by phone but
no avail.
Chaohwa
Why was I not contacted? I think I'm an intersting character. It would be intersting if the article mentioned my constant diversion into the SWINE REVOLUTION, WHICH WILL NOT BE TELEVISED!
[SWINE REVOLUTION, WHICH WILL NOT BE TELEVISED!]
With apologies to Gil-Scott Heron ;-)
I apologize, but who is this Mr. Heron you speak of?
His song 30 years ago was called "The Revolution Won't be Televised."
However, giving the times we're living in, on-demand streaming video of the revolution might be available through Yahoo!Broadcast.com, along with an on-line revolution chat room at www.revolution.gov
I have already discussed this. Following the REVOLUTION, all forms of broadcast will be controlled by the ruling pigty, all persons attempting to broadcast without the express written consent of the commissioner of the revolution will be vaporized.
YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
What about during the Revolution and the revolution ends once pigkind in in control so people will still be alowed to brodcast during the revolution.
During the pigvolution, any human controlled media may continue to broadcast as they see fit. Following the pigvolution, those who broadcast it will be vaporized and sent to a SULAG camp for a lifetime of producing free goods for the ruling pigs and the humans declared friends of the pigvolution.
So the revolution might very well be televised.
However, the revolution will not have been televised.
THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT HAVE BEEN TELEVISED!!!
What will you do with Jimmy Dean and Bob Evans?
John J. Blair,
Agent CURE81
H.O.R.M.E.L.
(Hogs Oughta Revert to Meat Everyone Likes)
Btw, "pigs", this thread is fun.
Subject says it all. It is with Washington Post Columist Bob Levy. It took place in October of 1999. Here goes:Q&A With Richard White
Tuesday, October 19, 1999
"Levey Live" appears each Tuesday from noon to 1 p.m. Eastern time. It's your chance to talk directly to to key Washington Post reporters and editors, local officials and people in the news.
Bob Levey
Craig Cola/washingtonpost.com
Bob's guest today is Richard White, General Manager and Chief Executive Officer of the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority. White is responsible for the operation of the region's Metrorail, Metrobus and Metro Access systems.
Richard White
Before taking his current position, White served as General Manager of the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit District (BART) and was a program analyst with the U.S. Department of Transportation's Urban Mass Transportation Administration. He attended Syracuse University and the University of Massachusetts.
Chantilly VA: How is the temperature for subways determined? Is there a constant tempcheck going on to determine heat vs. air, level, etc.? I've found that with the fall weather starting, Metro seems to OVERcompensate for chilly mornings, forgetting that with lots of bodies in the train it gets warm on its own. How, and how OFTEN, is the temperature decided-fixed?
PS -- Noticed you're an SU grad ... how bout them Hokies? ;--
Richard White: I don't have a detailed answer on the temperature but I have more than enough recent knowledged about the Hokies. I'm not routing for you guys.
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Bob Levey: As you know, I'm a huge fan of Metrobuses. Is ridership still growing? Will it continue to grow?
Richard White: Ridership on bus is booming. We're up 13% in the last 3 months primarliy because of our fare simplication program that we introduced in June of this year. We're making a singifacnt investment in buying new buses to upgrade our fleet.
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Bob Levey: About those new buses that serve the less-travelled routes: they have to be the weirdest looking vehicles in the history of the planet. My son says they remind him of "overgrown spiders." Have you had complaints about these buses? They are a lot smaller than their predecessors, after all.
Richard White: These weird looking buses are much smaller and weigh considerably less than our fullsized vehicles. Many people in the community have complained about noise and vibration from the big buses.
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DC: What are your views on the idea of a Purple Line in Maryland?
Richard White: This is now being studied by MDOT as a part of their beltway expansion study. There is an option on the table to connect New Carrollton to Grosvener via the Beltway. More to follow later this fall.
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DC: how come there aren't PROMPT announcements about delays? how come i always realize there's a delay LONG before metro announces it? and sometimes there isn't even an announcement! we passengers would feel a lot better if you told us about a delay IMMEDIATELY.
Richard White: We agree tha we can do a better job in this area. We have had significant retraining for our train operators and I think we have made some improvements recently. By the end of this year, we expect to have new signs in our train stations that will give you train arrival information on a real time basis. Hopefully, this will help.
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Springfield, VA: The metro does not allow bikes on the train during commuting hours. I sometimes ride the metro very early in the morning. There are not many riders from about 5:30 AM to 6:00 AM. If metro would allow bikes during that short time period it would be very helpful for bike commuters and shouldn't interfere with the more crowded commute time. Is this possible? I have also heard that liability is an issue with bikes on the metro during rush hour. Is this true?
Richard White: We attempt to allow bikes on trains when they do not significantly interfere with our other customers. We are still entertaining the possibility of expanding bicycle access for metrorail. We'll take your comment under advisement.
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Arlington, Va.: What's the deal with those electonic signs that have been installed in all the stations over this summer? Are y'all going to broadcast the Redsksins score on them? Current delays on I-66?
Richard White: We're giong to start first with the MetroRail score. We've experienced some delays in activating the signs. But we believe that they will be in service by the December. Hopefully, they'll be worth the wait.
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Silver Spring MD : 1. Why do you charge $5 for the rapid fare pass card? Don't you want to encourage its use? It cuts costs for Metro, as far as I can see. [edited for space]
Richard White: The card itself costs us approximately $10. We split the cost with you to encourage you to hang on to the card. In addition, we are able to deactivate your card should you lose it. Sorry, but that will cost you another $5.
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Bob Levey: I know you have many priorities for Metrorail over the next 25 years, but if you could have just one, would it be expansion to Dulles? Or is maintenance the more pressing need?
Richard White: Adequately maintaining and recapitalizing our MetroRail and MetroBus system does take prioirty over expansion of the system. However, rail service in the Dulles coordior is clearly needed and we hope that that project is able to move forward in the very near future.
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Bob Levey: You and I have debated this many times, but let me raise it again: The mind of the suburban commuter. How much pain will it take (and wasted gas, and wasted time) for that car-head to realize that public transportation is worth a shot? We just can't keep building more roads forever and ever, amen--can we?
Richard White: Suburban spawl clearly makes it more difficult for mass transit to serve many of our suburban communities. At the present, Metro removes 260,000 cars from the road on a daily basis. Hopefully, we can play an even bigger role in the future.
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Washington DC: Howdy. One thing about the Metro drives me NUTS! That is folks who will not stand to the right on the escalators to let those "always in a rush" persons like myself pass t by.her
How about posting signs ON the escalators suggesting they do just that. Other than that, you've got a great system -although i wish the trains would run rush hour schedules on weekends..-
Richard White: We encourage people not to walk on escolatrs. However, it is not prohibited. That is why we ask that people stand on the right to allow others to walk on the left if they feel it to be necessary.
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Rosslyn, VA: Good Afternoon-
Mr. White - I just want to say THANK YOU to you and everyone else who is working to extend Metro's weekend hours until 1 a.m. -and, I'm keeping my fingers crossed, ultimately until 2 a.m.-. I cannot tell you how many times my friends and I have had to choose between using Metro and cutting the night short or driving-cabbing and enjoying a leisurely night on the town - guess which one wins out now? The later hours will make it much easier for us to go out without worring about parking, deciding on designated drivers, or running to the metro station at a full sprint trying to catch the last train at 11:45. Please let me know if there is anything we can to do ensure that the later hours become permanent. Thanks again.
Richard White: Starting Friday, Nov.5, we will be extending MetroRail service until 1am on an experimental basis. We will evaluate usage and closely examine wether the later hours present any unanticipated system maintainence problems for us. By June of next year, I anticipate that the Board of Directors will make a final decision on this including the possibility of running until 2am.
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Bob Levey: Here we go into that eight-year-long Hell on Earth--the reconstruction of the Springfield Mixing Bowl in Northern Virginia. What are your plans to increase Metro service in that neck of the woods during reconstruction? Or will you wait to see if there's sufficient demand?
Richard White: We're beginning by providing more parking capacity at the Springfield station and also by providing pricing discounts for people who arrive by bus. If the demand so warrants, we would increase rail service accordingly.
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Washington, D.C.: Mr. White -
I am a regular Metro user and I think you've got a LONG way to go on communicating with your customers. A couple of examples: why doesn't your website have up-to-the-minute information on delays? The Washington Post site does. Those of us who have a choice of when to leave the office could check the site before leaving to see if our train is delayed, just like we all check the traffic before getting into a car. Second, you can't hear a word and you're on the platform when delays are actually announced. Why not put up a message board where we can read about what's going on? I love Metro but please -!- let us know what's going on!
Richard White: We're putting a high priority on improving communications for our customers. First, the new train arrival signs will be in service in the next 2 to 3 months. Second, we are testing out a new PA system for our stations to improve clarity of our voice announcements. Third, we have a new on-line ride guide service that gives you information on our schedules and various services. I would like to introduce real time information in as many different ways as possible. In short, we hear you and are trying to make improvements in this area.
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NW DC: Was in New York for a trip last week and got to take the 7 train a couple of times, which has to be the oldest, slowest, creakiest subway I've ever been on -well, except for maybe the Green Line of the T-.
The experience made me appreciate the current Metro equipment, but also wonder what the service life is on the current set of cars. How many miles are they good for?
Richard White: Our rail cars are designed to last approximately 35 years if rehabilitated during their midlife. I can give you the years but not the miles. Suffice it to say, it's alot.
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Arlington, VA: I'm with Bob on the fabulousness of the SmarTrip card. It is extremely easy to add money to, get in and out of Metro with, and even allows us to get rid of those low denomination farecards in the drawer. What is the next great technolgical boon Metro has for us?
Richard White: Let's see. We've done SmartCard, credit card, debit card, train arrival signs and on-line ride guide. We're thinking about trying to introduce information in our parking structures that will tell people when teh garages are filled up so you don't have to ride around endlessly looking for a spot. Can't tell you when we'll have this capability but we're studying it closely. Also, we hope that in a few years, you will be able to add value on your SmartTrip card at your home or business PC via cyberbanking.
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Bob Levey: Escalators--horrible, horrible, horrible. Any hope that we can enter a Metrorail station and see more of them working than broken?
Richard White: Escalators give me nightmares. On any given day, 90% work but 10% don't. That means about 55 escalators are out of service on any given day. We're not giving up but please be patient.
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Bob Levey: Do you plan an additional subway stop at New York and Florida Avenues NE even if no baseball stadium is built near there?
Richard White: The answer is yes. Mayor Williams has indicated his desire to see a new station built on the redline at NY and Florida avenues. It is now a priority of ours and we could see a groundbreaking in the next couple of years.
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Wash DC: Mr. White:
Shouldn't there be a discounted fare when the escalators don't work?
Richard White: We'll consider this if you're willing to pay more when they do work. Seriously, we understand that this is a great inconvience and we are rapidly advancing improvements in escalator profromance.
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Washington DC: We appreciate your taking questions from us commuters. A minor point perhaps, but can something be done about the annoying recorded voice saying to crowded passengers "Please stand clear of the doors!" Perhaps a different, more pleasant announcement?
Richard White: You may not know, but when I first arrived here more than 3 years ago, people told me that the message was overly harsh. We re-recorded a kinder gentler message. Maybe we need to take another look at it.
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DC: Any chance of a metro station opening in Georgetown or Glover Park?
I would love to metro to work rather than drive. Taking the bus doesn't help me avoid traffic, but a metro stop would allow me to use public transportation and avoid traffic!
Richard White: Unfortunately, more than 30 years ago, there was too much community opposition to building metrorail in Georgetown. Today, it is probably too costly to do so. Sorry.
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Wash DC: Why not open Metro on the weekends at 5:00 a.m. or earlier than 8:00 a.m. in addition to extending the closing hours?
Richard White: You may not know it, but when everybody sleeps, we do all of our maintainence on the railroad. Opening up earlier on a saturday or a sunday would rob us of necessary maintainence time. Unlike places like NY and Boston, we do not have third tracks like they do. That is how they are able to operate all night service.
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Arlington, VA: In a field in the middle of nowhere between National Airport and Braddock Road on the Blue and Yellow lines, there used to be a sign reading "site of future Potomac Yard Metrorail station". It always seemed odd to me, since there was nothing there that wasn't closer to Braddock Road. Then they built Potomac Yard mall and suddenly it all seemed to make a bit more sense. But at nearly the same time, the sign vanished. Will this mythical Metro station ever appear or did you guys finally decide that it was as useless an idea as I had first thought?
Richard White: The original plan was for the land developer to build a metrorail station in Potomac Yards at their expense. Unfortunately, they were unable to receive approvals for high enough density to support the funding of the new station. Therefore, it does not appear at this time that the station will be built unless there is a public source of financing.
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Bob Levey: Gov. Gilmore said recently that he will support $2 billion for Northern Virginia public transportation. But a regional panel said that Northern Virginia has $11 billion worth of needs. Where will the additional $9 billion come from?
Richard White: That's for the elected officials to decide and, of course, the voters. I'm just the paid beaurcrat.
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Vienna VA: I'll be honest and admit that I do not take Metro downtown during the week and I'll tell you why. I don't live within walking distance to the metro and by the time I get there in the AM, the lot is already full. I know there are these monthly passes you can get for a 'reserved' spot, but from what I've been told, those are all sold out. If you want people to take the metro, you have to make it easier for us to get there and actually use it.
Richard White: You're absolutely right. We do not have enough parking. We are trying to encourage more people to use the buses to get to the trains. However, for you in Vienna, relief is on the way. Next week, we are breaking ground for a 2nd parking garage at Vienna which will bring almost another 2,000 parking spaces. Should be completed by December 2000 or thereabouts.
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Burke, VA: When is Metro going to discontinue manual braking? This practice is hard on standees, particularly those of us who cannot reach the overhead bar. Lacking this, how about more training for Metro drivers. Some of them brake and release, brake and release, 6-10 times at each station.
Richard White: Finally, after 7 months, relief is in sight. That's the good news. The bad news is that the relief won't be here until May of next year. Hang on.
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Bob Levey: Now that the Green Line is finished and open, is ridership what you projected?
Richard White: We projected 4,000 riders with the opening of our two new green line stations. From day 1, we are carrying approximately double that. This follows the same positive trend that has occured with the opening of both Fraconian-Springfeild and Glenmont stations. Build it and they will come.
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Arlington: Arlington seems to have the right idea in concentrating housing and commercial zones near to the metro stations -i.e., the orange line corridor-. Being near metro was a top priority for me when I bought my home. Do you think other jurisdictions can or will adopt similar zoning in order to encourage the use of rail? Seems like all of those people who suffer through the traffic on 66 and the beltway would have it easier if they moved to areas that are walking distance to transit.
Richard White: The issue of transportation and land use planning is becoming a front and center issue for this region. Unfortunately, not everyone has been able to plan as well as Arlington County. It is only when congestion gets at such a high level due to sprawl that people begin to recognize the problem. Hopefully, better planning can help prevent the problem from getting worse.
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Seabrook, MD: It would make life much easier if I could use the SmartCard on the bus. Any thoughts on that in the future?
Richard White: We are ready to proceed with a procurement of new fare boxes for our buses. They will be equipped to accept both magnetic cards as well as SmartCards. It will take a couple of years to complete this effort.
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Bob Levey: One proposal to deal with the Tyson's Corner transportation question would have companies located there pay an extra tax to build rail. Do you really think these companies would go for that? My nose says otherwise.
Richard White: It is becoming increasingly likely that businesses both in Tysons Corner and in Reston and Heardon would be willing to tax themselves if they were able to be adequately served by a MetroRail extension. If I were betting man, I would place a bet on yes.
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Springfield, VA: In Germany, I found many parking decks tell arrivals exactly how many spaces are available on each level by simply counting the number of cars that go in and out - I think doing this would greatly reduce frustration and time spent wandering lots -and airports should do the same!-. And I happen to believe that the "guaranteed" parking is a bad idea - valuable spaces sit empty, putting additional cars on the road.
Richard White: I agree the issue of parking is frustrating. There doesn't seem to be a simple solution. Building new parking garages is extremely expensive but needs to be done in certain locations. More and better bus service to rail stations could also help. Finally, I agree with you that technology solutions could also help. I like your idea and we are currently evaluating that same concept.
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Bob Levey: I was vastly amused a few months ago when your board declared the brown and orange interiors of the trains "too 1970s." Hey, I had a good time in the 1970s. I still have my leisure suits to prove it. Seriously, when will we see the new red and blue interiors?
Richard White: You'll see them on our new railcars that are scheduled to arrive by the end of next year. Thereafter, they will be replaced on teh remainder of the rail fleet. Hang on to your 3 button suits for the future.
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Arlington: It sounds like there an awful lot of projects that are going to be in place in the next couple of years --- according to your responses to so many of the questions posed here today. What are the chances we'll actually see these things come to fruition? Are you making promises you'll actually be able to keep?
Richard White: Maybe I'm the eternal optimist. I will do everything in my power to try to make these things happen. I love metro and I value your loyalty and advice.
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Bob Levey: I was delighted to see not only a Redskin victory at Landover two Sundays ago, but a semi-solution to the transportation/parking mess. But couldn't Metro do more to advertise the fact that it runs shuttle buses between Richard White Stadium (hey, I can hope!) and the Addison Road station?
Richard White: For service to the Redskins, Metro is merely the contract service provider. We do what they ask and pay for us to do. We agree that there could be more marketing. I, for one, would like to see the Redskins provide the bus service free of charge. Hopefully, more improvements will evolve over time. I'm encouraged by the recent changes the Redskins have made to promoting metro services. Also, 4-1 ain't bad. Go Redskins.
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Bob Levey: Tourists are our lifeblood, but many of them still don't know about Metrorail, or are too afraid to try it. Have you considered marketing Metro outside of Washington?
Richard White: We do alot of marketing of our services for tourists particularly with chambers of commerce, convention centers and hotels. The best service we have is our on-line ride guide service that allows people from anywhere around the world to get informationon our services via the internet. www.wmata.com.
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Bob Levey: Some members of the Metro board have been quoted as saying that Metro faces a situation like New York City in the 1970s if big money isn't spent soon on maintenance. Would you characterize the problem as being that bad? Are we running the risk of trains stalling in tunnels and doors opening when a train is roaring along at 65 miles an hour?
Richard White: If we're not careful, we will run the risk of having a NY City type transit problem. We are just beginning to do things that we should have done 3 to 4 years ago. Hopefully, it's not too late. Again, as the eternal optimist, we'll do our best to maintain the high standards that people have come to expect from us.
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Bob Levey: Many thanks to Richard White for an excellent hour. Be sure to join us next Tuesday, Oct. 26, AT A SPECIAL TIME, when our guest will be the governor of Maryland, Parris Glendening. The governor will appear on "Levey Live" from 1:45 to 2:45 p.m. Eastern time. And don't forget our weekly anything-goes version of the show, "Levey Live: Speaking Freely." It appears Fridays from 1 to 2 p.m. Eastern time.
(a few observations)...
(35-year car lifespan with GOH at midlife) -
The Rohrs have had their GOH, correct - that means the 2000 series Bredas are due next - they date from 1982.
(blue and red interior)
UGH! The very THOUGHT OF THAT makes me queasy, dizzy and nauseous.
(red line station @ FL & NY ave NE/ball park)
What ballpark? Does that mean the TX Rangers are coming back to masquerade as the Washington Senators III? Have you heard anything about a station name for it?
(parking) Try getting a spot at West Falls Church after 0730 hrs. ¡Imposible! They need more parking there; God only knows where they'll put it.
(green line)
Is NOT complete - five stations yet to open at the south end of the line (nitpick). I guess they meant just the inner city portion.
I'm surprised nobody asked about the dreadful lighting conditions at Foggy Bottom/GWU, which is certainly living up to its name. Seven times I tried to pierce the gloom with my camera flash last year; seven times I failed. Perhaps all they need to do is to whitewash the waffles (like they did at Eastern Mkt/Capitol South/Fed Center SW) there is way too much track dust etc embedded in it and the station is terribly dark. Ditto for Pentagon. Not even a bat can see in there.
Wayne
I heard of a plan involving the Montrèal Expos.
Montreal may move to RFK until a stadium is built in Northern Virginia. Seems unlikely, though.
Thanks for posting the interview. It's nice to hear how easy going and thoughtful Mr. White was. He seemed relaxed and straight forward with his answers.
Maybe 20 years ago in New York, Marty Wayne, the man who hosted the morning show on WNYC AM use to have John deRoos, the TA chief, come in once a month and answer listener calls. Marty Wayne was a transit buff, and he had an easy going relationship with John deRoos. I wonder if anyone remembers those shows.
In any event, it was great to hear someone like Mr. White be so forthcoming and relaxed. Sometimes the mayor here has an easy going manner when he takes phone calls over the local radio station.
On WTOP here, they have a program called Sprawl & Crawl once a month. Check at WTOPnews.com to find out when it is on next. They had Mr. White before (I forget when). For those New Yorkers who wanted to hear, it is on live at wtopnews.com, you need RealPlayer or MediaPlayer.
When I was on the train today, I was musing over the
cost of electricity to operate the motors on the Q,
let's say between Prospect Park & 7th Ave, at full
speed. I really don't know what the current draw of
the motor would be, and I am almost wondering if it
would be as great at full speed as when it is
accelerating. ( I know the Biot Savart Law or the
Law of Disjunctive Inference has something to do
with this ) I'm interested in some rough figures.
$1, $5, $10?
We can't know this without knowing the number of passengers, tailwind and ambient temperature.
Wha happened there, heypaul - Grade timer's got you down? I know the feeling.
Southbound in the same location - will SOMEBODY get rid of /disable/remove/destroy GT #409!!!
Wayne
There are no grade timers FROM Prospect Park TO Seventh Avenue. There are grade timers in the other direction -- a series of GT40s/ST20s. I've talked about them before -- and about how almost every Train Operator slows down to 25 mph or less through the area.
David
Thanks - I wasn't sure if they hadn't installed one in there as it seemed that heypaul was crabbing about something going northbound.
I already know all too well about GT#409 and its unpleasant impact on "Q" service. You don't notice it on "D" trains; you're already crawling along.
Wayne
uhhhh wayne--- i was not crabbing about the speed--- i was trying to ask a serious question about the cost of power--- now that i am getting press attention, i can't afford to be taken as a clown---
i have to assume a more intellectual stance now that i will be on the front page of the news tomorrow and within a week will be the star of an 18 hour video of my life filmed by the noted cinematographer Mr. Willie--- we have just finalized the production plans--- the video will be a railfan window view of my world accomplished by mounting the camera on my eyeglass frames--- soon the world will know what life in the breakdown lane is like--- it will be frightening
Those timers are required. There is a slight curve right before Prospect Park and the trains gather up alot of speed while traveling between the 2 stations.
Yes, there is a curve. There are plenty of curves all over the subway system. Most of them don't have timers, nor are they needed. There is also a grade coming into Prospect Park, but it's an UP grade. As I've previously explained, those timers are there to protect Franklin Shuttle trains moving from the southbound shuttle track to the northbound shuttle track south of Prospect Park...something they haven't done in regular service in DECADES.
David
According the the fta library, the average operating cost for NYCT heavy rail is $7.47 per vehicle revenue mile. The distance between PP and 7th Ave is approximately 1.25 miles. That makes the average operating cost for the train to $9.34 for that stretch. That limits the expense to less than a 10-spot.
There are published figures as to what percentage of the operating expenses goes to electricity. If you multiply the $9.34 by that figure, you'll get a better estimate.
However, in the absence of those figures let's estimate the labor costs. Take a burdened rate of $50K/year or $25/hour. At an average speed of 25 mph that makes 0.05 hours or $2.50 for the 2-man crew. Subtracting that out leaves $6.84. You can try to identify other significant costs but this figure should hold for a rough estimate. After all, how many mils would you assign for car cleaning? :-)
I asked a simple question about how much the electrical power costs to propel a Q for about 3 minutes, and Steven Bauman gives me a very inelegant answer. I didn't want an indirect proof.
I guess if Jeff H wasn't still trying to get steel dust out of his hair and off his slide rule, he would have answered my question. An elegant answer would have been along these lines. Each motor draws __a__ amps. There are __w__ working motors on each car. Since here are 10 cars, then they are drawing a total of 10aw watts or aw/100 kilowatts. If the train runs for __m__ minutes between the 2 stations, then a total of (aw/100)(m/60) kilowatt hours of energy are used. Assuming a cost of .10 per kilowatt hour, then the cost of the run in dollars would be .10 (aw/100) (m/60) dollars.
I did that without having to use the Biot Savart Law
I really feel exhilarated!!!
Biot Savart Law???????????? please elaborate
Peace,
Andee
andee--- don't expect me to make up for your lack of seriousness when you were taking your elective physics course in electricity and magnetism--- the biot savart law is vital to anyone here who hopes to understand the subways--- perhaps i will compose a 5,000 or 10,000 word monograph on the subject and see if it can be posted for everyone's elucidation--- i just don't know if i can find the time in the midst of my heavy schedule of silliness...
i hope you are making progress on your thesis project of making mr. willie laugh
Biot-Savart's Law is a method for calculating the static magnetic field at a point in space due to current flow. It involves a vector cross product. The field direction is typically shown by invoking the 3 finger right hand analogy. This demonstration could be construed to be an obscene gesture, when taken out of context. This fact might have something to do with its popularity within this discussion group.
This method leaves something to be desired from a computational viewpoint. There are other methods for calculating the magnetic field that rely on solving partial differential equations. These techniques are more often used, when the spatial variations for a static magnetic field must be calculated.
Math - whew! That sounds like the stuff they tried to feed me in the experimental math class in high school. I will stick to the Trigonometry of the Right Triangle which aids me in calculating the number and size of triangular pieces needed to repair and restore various tileworks throughout the BMT and IRT.
Wayne :o>
It would also be interesting to determine how much juice a train of Triplexes or BMT standards would have consumed. Or how much momentum one of those trains could develop.
No matter how you slice it, current draw is less than what it used to be without field shunting. So is train speed...
What the hell is field shunting? What field is being shunted (don't get all simplistic, I know what shunting is)?
It increases a train's top speed. The only other thing I can say is that the R-68s desperately need it.
From what has been said, I am aware of that. This post was unnecessary, it would have been removed by the Ruling Pigty.
I regret that you did not appreciate my estimation technique. The criteria for judging such techinques are accuracy and computational ease.
Here are some of the problems with the direct approach. The horsepower ratings are usually published for motors. This can be converted to electrical power and amperage. An accurate estimate of the motor efficiency is required because not all electrical power supplied to the motor will be converted into motive effort - not generally published and definitely not for different current inputs. An accurate estimate for the efficiency of the AC to DC converters is similarly required. This will give you an estimate of the power required. An accurate estimate of the time travelled to get the estimated kw-hrs is required. Finally, the cost of electricity is also required.
Most of these parameters are not easy to obtain nor intuitively obvious to estimate. Paul Mateus alluded to this in his post. The indirect approach circumvents this to come up with a quick ballpark estimate.
Oh, well I too was satisfied with Stephen's answer so I didn't
respond. There are two numerical methods to calculate the
electricity consumed. You could calculate the total mechanical
energy and then divide by the efficiency, which is about 85%
for subway motors, but that neglects the significant power wasted
during acceleration in the grids. You could also integrate the
current draw over the time period in question. We're talking
about R-68s? I think they have a notching current of 350A per
motor. It takes about 4 seconds to reach transition. Let's
take third rail voltage at 625 volts nominal. 4*350*625=875kJ
for series, then after transition another 4 seconds to get through
the parallel notches, so 1750kJ, then no more field shunting..
the big question is what is the %grade at that location, as this
will determine the balancing current. If we guess that the
balancing current is 60A per motor and it takes 120 seconds
to get to the next station, that's another 9000kJ.
This is for a single car. For a 10 car train, the total is 116,250 kiloJoules
or 32 kWh.
Jeff, I didn't want to get drawn into this because I think the question is basically unanswerable due to too many variables. However, keep in mind that R-68s run in 8-car consists and not 10. Also add 6 Air compressor motors,16 blower motors,heaters or AC compressor motors (depending on the season), 176 inverter ballasts plus double that # of fluorescent tubes, headlights,taillights, end signs propulsion logic x 8 cars. The list can go on and on.
Ooops, you've definitely got me on the number of cars!
All of the other loads are negligible compared to traction
current with the exception of the HVAC system.
Jeff - heypaul had mentioned a "Q" train - that would equate to ten units of R40 IIRC. I guess some of the variables would differ from those of the R68s.
Wayne
(a few observations)...
(35-year car lifespan with GOH at midlife) -
The Rohrs have had their GOH, correct - that means the 2000 series Bredas are due next - they date from 1982.
(blue and red interior)
UGH! The very THOUGHT OF THAT makes me queasy, dizzy and nauseous.
(red line station @ FL & NY ave NE/ball park)
What ballpark? Does that mean the TX Rangers are coming back to masquerade as the Washington Senators III? Have you heard anything about a station name for it?
(parking) Try getting a spot at West Falls Church after 0730 hrs. ¡Imposible! They need more parking there; God only knows where they'll put it.
(green line)
Is NOT complete - five stations yet to open at the south end of the line (nitpick). I guess they meant just the inner city portion.
I'm surprised nobody asked about the dreadful lighting conditions at Foggy Bottom/GWU, which is certainly living up to its name. Seven times I tried to pierce the gloom with my camera flash last year; seven times I failed. Perhaps all they need to do is to whitewash the waffles (like they did at Eastern Mkt/Capitol South/Fed Center SW) there is way too much track dust etc embedded in it and the station is terribly dark. Ditto for Pentagon. Not even a bat can see in there.
Wayne
I heard of a plan involving the Montrèal Expos.
Montreal may move to RFK until a stadium is built in Northern Virginia. Seems unlikely, though.
Thanks for posting the interview. It's nice to hear how easy going and thoughtful Mr. White was. He seemed relaxed and straight forward with his answers.
Maybe 20 years ago in New York, Marty Wayne, the man who hosted the morning show on WNYC AM use to have John deRoos, the TA chief, come in once a month and answer listener calls. Marty Wayne was a transit buff, and he had an easy going relationship with John deRoos. I wonder if anyone remembers those shows.
In any event, it was great to hear someone like Mr. White be so forthcoming and relaxed. Sometimes the mayor here has an easy going manner when he takes phone calls over the local radio station.
On WTOP here, they have a program called Sprawl & Crawl once a month. Check at WTOPnews.com to find out when it is on next. They had Mr. White before (I forget when). For those New Yorkers who wanted to hear, it is on live at wtopnews.com, you need RealPlayer or MediaPlayer.
Hello out there,
My grandfather worked for the "subway" in NYC according to the Federal census of year 1900. It is important that I get copies of his employment with the subway company. Is there any possibility that they exist? if so, how would I go about gaining access to them? I am from the Chicago area and do not know NYC very well. Thank you.
Jim Vaughan
There was no subway in 1900. Perhaps something else underground. The "call before you dig" people are called the Manhattan Subway Company, they don't run the subway.
Empire City Subway, actually
And I just went back to that message in order to correct myself, thanks for beating me to it! Saved me a lot of effort, except that more effort is involved in this message than a correction, damn! Thanks for nothing!
Eh, I'll use this message to remind you of the REVOLUTION!
So, you got your census forms! I've always thought about doing that. They are confidential for, I believe, 80 years, which means it is possible to pick up those from 1920 now. It might be interesting to see what was going on on New Main Street in Yonkers at that time.
Perhaps you might describe how you went about this, and how difficult it was, for the board.
Unfortunately, there was no subway in 1900. The first subway opened in 1904. There were some pre-subway elevated railroads in both Brooklyn and Manhattan at the time. I'd have to look something up to see if it was even under construction. Perhaps your grandfather had something to do with the planning and construction of the original IRT.
Write a letter to New York Transit Dept of personnel 370 Jay street brooklyn New York 11201. Transit will probably still maintain records of predecessar companies
Also keep in mind that the statute of limitations for retaining such records has long since expired. The legal requirement is that employers must keep employee records for THREE years after termination of employment (there are longer requirements if there is a worker's comp claim). I wouldn't be surprised if those records have long since been destroyed.
transit never throws anything away. i remember years ago some dispatcher told me he needed records from 30 years ago for his pension and they still had his sign in sheets in a ledger book. as far as being a predecessor company transit doesnt throw their records away since they are now transits records. Of course with computers now in 100 years all you willl have to do is switch on the computer. I also remember seeing in transit law library uses books stamped property of "third avenue railroad corporation"
Unfortunately there was no subway in NYC in 1900. The first day of operation was 10/27/1904.
Could it be that yur grandfather was a construction worker who helped build the subway? That might explain the earlier date being quoted.
Ground was broken for the Contract One line on, IIRC, March 24, 1900 in front of City Hall. It was a gala event.
Was the R-16 the only model to ever have the door problem?
Were they the only cars to receive those strange slanted wall panels?
The R16 got the singular vapor engines as a prototype for the R44s in the early '70s. Unlike the R10 through R42s where a center door engine operates two adjacent panels, the newer cars only run one panel, reducing delays in loading and unloading when an engine is cutout. Corner doors were always operated by one engine. The slanted wall panels were installed because the floor mounted engines were replaced by the prototype design which of course on the R44s are located by the swing panels decored by the Great Seal of the State of New York.
Reminds me of the R-12s which were specially equipped for the Bowling Green-South Ferry shuttle service in the 1960s.
Since the cars could only open their center doors at South Ferry, the door motors were disconnected from the end doors and only opened a panel of the center door. There was a separate control installed at the Conductor's station to open the far panel of the end door at Bowling Green.
(I hope this description makes sense).
-- Ed Sachs
I'm glad you brought that up. Since the R-12s had exterior trigger boxes, the controls to open only the center doors must have been situated in the cabs. Was this the case?
[ I'm glad you brought that up. Since the R-12s had exterior trigger boxes, the controls to open only the center doors must have been situated in the cabs. Was this the case? ]
No, as far as I can remember they mounted an extra switch on the trigger boxes.
-- Ed Sachs
IIRC, the doors on the R-16s tended to balk in cold weather. The R-16s in general were allergic to cold weather. Even with the new door engines, they were not without problems. I have a Times article from December of 1986 which chronicles the demise of #6321, and among other things it had repeated door problems. Its doors just plain would not open. It seems the problem may not have been so much a door engine issue as it may have been an electric portion/coupler pin problem.
Does anyone know when the last major vestiges of the Lexington Avenue El was removed?
I thought I had a faint recollection as a small child, which would be circa 1956 or 1957. I discussed with my mother and shee thinks also that it was torn down after I was born.
As someone who works right by the intersection of Ralph & Bway where the Lex turned off the Bway El onto Lexington Av I can say there is no trace of it over there. Last year on this board some posters recalled a trace on the metal gridwork not too long ago (about 10-20 years ago) but that was since obliterated. There is no trace on Lexington itself other than the fact there is alot more commercial and industrial property than on parallel streets which suggests an el. Alot of the residential buildings (projects, etc) were built after the el was torn down in '50. And of course since the Myrtle Av El was torn down there are no traces on the other end. A poster on this board did post last year that there still is an el pillar to the Myrtle in the Pratt Inst. campus. And of course the el still stands S/O Bway to Lewis Av sans tracks.
By the way, while we're on the subject, anyone know of any traces still around of the old Manhattan els?
The Emperial Japanese Aircraft Carrier, Akagi, somewhere NNW of Midway Island
Pacific Ocean.
Nope, Akagi was commisioned before that scrap steel was sent to the Land of the Rising Sun. Coulda been in the bombs dropped on Pearl Harbor, though.
There are several traces of Manhattan Els, that I know of at least:
The substation on Allen Street, Manhattan
The remains of the Willis Ave spur and NYW&B station beneath the Willis Ave br in the Bronx. Until the early 80s a section of the el actually stood there. I think the footings may still be there.
A pillar footing in a Con Ed yard about 183rd Street in the Bronx.
The Polo Grounds shuttle traces discussed here of late.
Also allegedly there is a retail store on 6th Ave around 18th Street that had a direct entrance to the el mezzanine at track level; a door is still visible at the 2nd story building level but I have not been able to discern it. Perhaps someone else knows?
Another point: My dad worked for Con Ed his whole life as a cable splicer. He told me he had a field job once on the Harlem River bank, Manhattan side, at the point where the 2/3 Ave el bridge was. He claims that manholes and underwater feeder cables for el power distribution are still there and visible near the Harlem River Drive. There was a concrete dealer there a while ago. He's not a railfan, so perhaps he was mistaken. Anyone know more details? It makes sense to submerge the power cables since the bridge was a swing span.
[Also allegedly there is a retail store on 6th Ave around 18th Street that had a direct entrance to the el mezzanine at track level; a door is still visible at the 2nd story building level but I have not been able to discern it. Perhaps someone else knows?]
That's not too far from where I work. I'll check it out this afternoon and post whatever I find.
One other thing: in the book _Manhattan 1945_ by Jan Morris, published in the middle 1980's, it was claimed that the locations of the pillar footings for the Third Avenue El remained visible from the upper floors of buildings along the avenue.
You jogged my memory:
I have also been told that somewhere in Yorkville (around 77th Street)
someone has/had a Third Ave el station sign on the roof of a multi family dwelling. I saw a slide of it about 20 years ago. Dont know if it still exists.
Also there was a newsstand at the NE corner of 34th Street and 3rd Ave that was built around a column for the station stairway. The newsstand survived into the 70s. When it was removed the footprint of the stairway and/or column could be seen. I never saw it though, but I've heard references to it. Perhaps someone would have a slide of it.
Good luck on 6th Ave - perhaps a trace of the station entrance exists that I have been unable to discern.
[Also allegedly there is a retail store on 6th Ave around 18th Street that had a direct entrance to the el mezzanine at track level; a door is still visible at the 2nd story building level but I have not been able to discern it. Perhaps someone else knows?]
I just checked out the corner of 18th and Sixth. The most likely candidate for a former el entrance is the big commercial building on the NE corner that now houses T.J. Maxx and other stores. I believe it once held a big department store. There is a three-story triple archway in the front of the building that once could have had the entrance. It's impossible to tell for sure because the windows in the archway, as well as the area inside the building, have been heavily renovated in recent years. The Today's Man building on the NW corner still has what looks like its original facade, and I didn't see any window openings that look like they could have been doorways. Much the same is true for the Old Navy building on the SE corner. The SW corner is occupied by a small, rather rundown building.
I remember about 1979 or so, there was still in existence a tall (atleast 5 story) elevator shaft for the 9th Av el. This pedestrian elevator served a station along, or right near, the famous "S" curve uptown. The bottom entrance of the brick shaft was surrounded by a garage at ground level.
I hav'nt been around that area for atleast 20 years, dont know if its still there.
Nope. Which corner was it? I think it's an apartment complex now (seems right for age).
02/24/2000
That elevator shaft has since been demolished. It lasted into the 70's if not the early 80's. The sign at 77th St I was told is gone. The 6th Ave. and 18th St. department store entrance has been obliterated since the building was bought and rehabbed into stores. There was a column left on Jamaica Ave. in Queens after the "el" was razed. I saw it myself, but haven't noticed it as late. On the (Brooklyn) 5th Avenue "el", I saw what looked like turnouts in the concrete wall was for the 39th St yard, that too is no more since the rebuilding of the Jackie Gleason (5th Ave) bus depot.
Bill Newkirk
The pillar on Jamaica Ave that you refer to was removed in 1991 when the section from Supthin Blvd. east was demolished.
02/24/2000
Chris R,
I wonder where that pillar went, I'm glad I have a shot as proof.
Bill Newkirk
I now live around 39 street 5 ave. in brooklyn. its hard to imagine all the train things that were around there it just amazes me i wish i wasnt born in 79. i wish i would have been able to expirience all that stuff.
Don't feel bad. There are times when I wish I had been born prior to 1956...
I don't. I'd be 44 or older. Yikes.
Had I been born earlier, I could have sampled some transit tidbits I missed out on. For instance, I'm too young to remember streetcars in Chicago. Only two routes were still operating when I was born, and a year and a half later, the streetcar was gone from Chicago.
On the southeast corner of Columbus Av. at 110th St. there is an apartment building dating back to before the removal of the 9th Av. El. The El apparently took a large curve, as this is clearly visible in the curved outline of the building. The curve to 8th Av. is occupied by a building built probably less than 20 years ago.
Bob
[Also there was a newsstand at the NE corner of 34th Street and 3rd Ave that was built around a column for the station stairway. The newsstand survived into the 70s. When it was removed the footprint of the stairway and/or column could be seen. I never saw it though, but I've heard references to it.]
This may be another example of transit history that's become history, though there's a vestige of hope. I just got back from spending about ten minutes looking at the corner. The girl in the Haagen-Dasz shop at the corner must've though I'd escaped from Bellevue, which of course is nearby.* At any rate, the sidwwalk right at the corner has been rebuilt in relatively recent times, presumably as part of the curb-cut installation, and any traces of the stairway/column would have been obliterated in the process. About thirty feet north of the corner on Third Avenue, surrounded by old-looking sidewalk, there is a rectangular patch of newish concrete about ten by four feet. It's possible that this could be a remnant of the station stairway, but I would tend to doubt that because the newish concrete, though not poured yesterday or anything like that, is surely no more than five or at most ten years old. That would be well after the newsstand's removal. The other, more likely candidate is a patch of concrete, about two feet square, that's just east of the corner on 34th. It's not any younger that the surrounding concrete, but has a border all around it as if it were poured in a separate footing. Could it be a remnant of the stairway column? It's about the right size for a column base.
* = there was another man hanging around the corner who I believe really HAD just escaped from Bellevue. He was wearing a hospital gown and was carrying on a loud animated conversation with himself. Fortunately, I left before the men in white coats arrived, or else there might've been a tragic case of mistaken identity.
A piece of the southern extension of the NYWB still straddles E 177th Street.
www.forgotten-ny.com
There's another substation at Third and 99th St. in the Lexington Houses (the site of the 98th St. Yard).
Oh yes, I forgot about that one. Wasn't it once a turnstile maintenance facility? Thanks for the memory boost!
Also a retaining wall for that same yard, if I remember correctly.
--Mark
I am planing a big subway trip. I just need to know what is the record for the fastest time for doing the ENTIRE subway plus the SIRT.
i don't know if anyone has done the entire system plus sirt--- if you could wait a couple of years when christopher rivera, another fine teenager, completes his 5 line second avenue subway, there will be a line going to tottenville coming off of the 2nd ave subway--- then you can do without leaving the subway
i have an idea--- why not do a complete run of the current ta system with your friends performing throughout the entire trip--- call it panhandling for laughs through 400+ stations--- that would really be something--- perhaps the reporter from the daily news could cover the event--- it would give you and all the honorable teenagers between 12 and 20 a good name...
I believe that the guiness book of world's records has a number of records relating to riding the NYC subways.
Peace,
Andee
The record for riding the entire system is something just under 24 hours. But note that it had been set some years ago, when service patterns were different than today (in particular, full Manhattan Bridge service), so any times achieved today won't be directly comparable.
Figure on at least a few extra hours if you want to add SIRT and the ferry.
Being an avid subfan, rider, and Subtalk poster, I've been noticing the amount of blame being put on teenagers for the bad events that have gone on in the Subway recently. Putting the blame on a group of people who have no say in today's socitity is ridiculous. Here are just some of the things that we are found being the main causes of:
1. The MetroCard Scam - The story goes that teenagers are the main scammers but yet in the top ten scammers only 1 of them was under 18.
2. Braking Escalators - There's a thread going around about broken escalators and how teen are pushing the stop button to piss people off. Now why would we do this? You think we have nothing better to do then this. We use the subway for TRANSPORTATION! and NOT for our personal form of destruction It just drive me crazy when i get on a subway car and people look at me like I'm about to pull the Emergence Brake. I AM NOT GOING TO DO THAT.
Now I'm not saying that all teens are nice. but it certainly isn't most of us. Our image is that of a "look-out-for-that-kid" thing. That's why I have started "Panhandling for Laughs" It's when me and some friends of mine get into either a 1/2/3/9 Train and entertain the passengers from 96th St. To 34th St. It's a start on a statement saying that "We are not evil" and maybe it will catch on so that I can finally buy a stick of gum in the subway with out the guy behind the counter watching me while some 40 year old steels a Snapple.
look kid--- read your shakespeare for why teenagers are blamed for everything--- he said the fault dear brutus is not with the teenagers but with ourselves--- us older folks need a convenient target for our frustrations--- it is politically incorrect nowadays to blame the jews, blacks, gays, disabled, women, poor, or whomever----- but to blame teenagers is just fine---
you panhandle for laughs???--- what happens if people don't laugh--- do you menace them?--- i can imagine the people in the car when you and your friends are performing--- the customers must be cowering in their seats forcing out laughs out of fear for the lives---
if you don't want people to think you are going to pull the emergency cord, then why do you hover near it with sweaty hands?---
( hey folks--- i am not slamming this young man, who is a tribute to his age group--- this is the young man who heard train whistles coming from outside his penitentiary ( high school )--- i solved that mystery by proving conclusively that the sounds were coming from a roasted peanut push cart on amsterdam ave. )
"from outside his penitentiary ( high school )"
I appreciate your understanding of the tyranny imposed upon us in those places.
i can remember my years of incarceration in the
school system--- and if i forget- as a math tutor, i
get to see a lot of people who are subjected to
the cruel and unusual punishment of math class.
here's a little bit of wisdom i once heard at a
brooklyn college graduation--- it was years after i
graduated--- i was just passing by the college on
graduation day ( actually i was standing by the
entrance with my gas grill )
the speaker told the students that they are at a
sort of in between point in their lives--- in
between being a student, a son or daughter, and a
minor AND being a teacher perhaps, or parent
someday, and an adult ( i'm still waiting for that )
---- he said you better remember what it was like to
be dependent or subject to other people's
authority--- because if you forget, you will do the
same damage that you complain about to your own
students, children or people who work for you....
i really liked that--- unfortunately it hasn't
prevented me from being a monster to the people
around me.
Oh, like the people who blame youth for the disgusting condition of the bus fleet? I learned something about this. It's not the youth, it's the middle-class adults in businesswear who leave their empty coffee cups in the luggage racks, their chewed gum stuck to the bottom of the seat, their empty cany wrappers, used tissues and discarded Metrocards in the window vent openings.
-Hank
[I have started "Panhandling for Laughs" It's when me and some friends of mine get into either a 1/2/3/9 Train and entertain the passengers from 96th St. To 34th St. ]
Please don't treat the strangers on the train as one group, as the masses, or as you call them, the passengers. Each one is an individual. Some may enjoy your forced entertainment, others do not. But none have a choice in between stations without inconveniencing themselves by walking between cars. Before you begin your circus show, you ought to ask the people around you if they'd like to be in your audience.
I don't invovle people in my act. And i would not call it 'forced entertainment' it something that people can look back on that night at dinner and say "A funny thing happend on my way home today..."
[I don't invovle people in my act. And i would not call it 'forced entertainment' it something that people can look back on that night at dinner and say "A funny thing happend on my way home today..."]
All the same, I think it's time to retire your act. One of these days, you might run into an undercover cop who doesn't grasp the distinction between Panhandling for Laughs and real panhandling. Or maybe some rider who's had a really, really bad day and doesn't appreciate being disturbed by some boisterous kids. Or even a real panhandler who's fiercely protective of his turf.
GOOD SOLID advice . . . I hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears (EYES?)
Peace,
Andee
Why should he stop? If you're a passenger most likely you'll just ignore him if you think he's acting like an ass... How often is it you see people get into fist fights on the subway? Very rarely... He knows that he may get into trouble with the cops and since he's young, or at least when I was that age about 10-15 years ago, you just get harrassed by the cops... Life goes on.... I relish the memories I have growing up in NY exploring the subway and acting like a kid... As long as no one's getting hurt or seriously inconvieneced...Carry on...
[. And i would not call it 'forced entertainment' it something that people can look back on that night at dinner and say "A funny thing happend on my way home today..."]
So many strange things happen on the subway that I doubt yours would be worth discussing over dinner. Even if what you did was so good that I just had to tell other people, I'd still be resentful that you didn't bother to give me a choice. Please cease your oppresive side show and just sit back and look out the window or read a magazine.
pgitty--- could you describe people's reactions to your show? i have a feeling you get a lot more positive response than envisioned by people here---
i also have a feeling that if you were playing to a car with people who seemed especially disinterested you would probably adjust your act accordingly
my main bad rap that i place on teenagers is that ********* rap music that some teens and adults play
>>>"my main bad rap that i place on teenagers is that ********* rap music that some teens and adults play"<<<
Remember, that they said similar things about rock in the 50's, my friend.
Peace,
Andee
I don't care who it is who plays the rap, I'm just not a fan of the genre. And loud radio or walkman playing is annoying, regardless of my feelings towards the music being played.
>>>>And loud radio or walkman
playing is annoying, regardless of my feelings towards the music being played.<<<
The intent, whether it's graffiti, scratchiti, loud walkmen on the trains or boom cars in the streets, is to intimidate and to define your space. And the perp, more likely than not, is a male individual between 15 and 30 years of age...
www.forgotten-ny.com
(Male individual of 41 years of age)
The intent, whether it's graffiti, scratchiti, loud walkmen on the trains or boom cars in the streets, is to intimidate and to define your space. And the perp, more likely than not, is a male individual between 15 and 30 years of age...
OK... While I agree that graffiti and scratchiti are meant to define your space and intimidate to a small degree, the population its meant to intimidate is not necessarily the public at large, but other "artists." As a former youth who dabbled in the graffiti scene of the '80's, I am not a big fan of scratchiti due to the lack of style and color and plain ugliness. While I am not reminiscing on the old days when a train would be covered head to toe in permanernt ink and paint, there would be some beautiful full train works done once in a while, at least compared to scrathiti... With regards to the walkman issue, the intimidation factor is not necessarily that large. I have owned and constantly used a walkman since the age of 11 or so (I am now 26). I need music constantly. However, in my youth, I would play the music way too loud, not necessarily to intimidate, but because you don't relaize how irritiating it can be.. Besides what do you want for $1.50? Your own train?
Oh, and for the record, I am a 26 year old male expecting my MA in European Studies in May.
>>>Besides what do you want for
$1.50? Your own train?<<<
Kevin, that is so typical of the attitude of the guys who play their walkmen at an annoyingly loud volume. No, I do not want my own bus or subway car for my $1.50.
However, I think that for my $1.50 I do earn some consideration from other passengers to respect the fact that some people don't like a lot of high pitched screeching in their ears, or don't like a lot of people yelling into their cellphones.
As a rule, when confronted with a screaming baby or screeching walkman, I just get up and move.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Hi Kevin, to be quite honest, I just tolerate such noise, hoping that its only temporary with the time depending on my mood, but if it continues, I just move myself. But I do subscribe to the mantra "You get what you pay for" so I accept the annoyances... Perhaps the best/worst one, depending on your point of view, was one morning I got on the 4 at Atlantic Ave going to GCT. I had my walkman and was listening to it at a normal level and as is natural, that train was PACKED. Anyway, some woman took it upon herself to begin preaching to the car at the top of her lungs using phrases such as "I AM NOT PART OF THE RAT RACE" and telling people to repent. I immediately thanked God for my walkman, but right before Borough Hall, the batteries died and I had to liten to her the whole way, not able to move due top the number of people... Hell morning, but chalk it up....
On a side note, I love your web site...Keep up the excellent work! Loved the part about the old tavern in College Point...
>>>>Anyway, some woman took it
upon herself to begin preaching to the car at the top of her lungs using phrases such as "I AM NOT
PART OF THE RAT RACE" and telling people to repent. I immediately thanked God for my walkman, but
right before Borough Hall, the batteries died and I had to liten to her the whole way, not able to move
due top the number of people<<<
Yeah, I know what you mean. A new trick is for a bunch of guys to start singing in the cars, hoping to pick up some change. So I'm always car hopping to evade them. I suppose I should be more empathetic, especialy since I myself have been looking for full time work since November.
I think I'd out-Giuliani Giuliani when it comes to the trains. I'd get rid of the steel drum players, violinists and all other subway musicians, until the courts reversed it on First Amendment considerations...
>>>Keep up the excellent work! Loved the part about the old tavern
in College Point... <<<
Flessel's. When I moved to Queens, I always meant to get over there, but waited...waited... he that waits too long will wait forever.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The reactions that i get are of smiles and a lot a applause when were done. One time we were preforming and there was a guy video tapeing us and when we were done he came up to us and thanked us for making his trip to New York a more injoyable experience. And if we see that the car doesn't like us, we stop and move on.
P.S. I like to listen to aternative music and I also can't stand rap
You don't do this on the IND by any chance, do you? The reason I ask is that we were serenaded on a northbound A train in October of 1998 by a group of young people whose repertiore included the Ballad of Gilligan's Island.
Sorry that wasn't me but but looks like somebody beat me to my own idea
I apologize if when talking about the rash of escalators found in "emergency stop" around the system, I slammed teenagers in particular. Actually, the horseplay could be done by pre-teens (grade schoolers) since they can easily find the ON/OFF buttons as well.
I even have suspections (sorry about the spelling -- haven't had my coffee yet) that the homeless who loiter around stations with escalators could also be the culprits here.
I was wrong to lump the sole blame on teens.
Doug aka BMTman
Why don't the young subfans of the world unite? And rule...
Unite with the pigs! Your lives will be spared if you declare union with the pigs!
Every generation of Teenagers always gets knocked on. Mine it was Elvis and Rock and Roll will bring us down. We used to get blamed for everything, so now it s your turn, and the next and the next etc generation
The cycle will one day have to be stopped. One generation doesn't have to suffer because the previous one did, exact your vengeance on the generation which knocked you! End the cycle! If not you, then it will be when the pigs rule.
have that stuff that u mentioned is true. however, with my experiences, teenagers do those kinds of things. a teenager one time did press the stop button on an escalator and made an old lady fall and cut herself badly, a group of teenagers jump the turnstyle at 30th(grand ave.)and made fun of the token clerk's accent after he told them to pay the fare. i witnessed a group of five in a front car of the 7 train take out permanent markers and commenced the act of grafitti(luckily the cops caught them), and recently, i witnessed a group of teens somehow had a conducters key and started messing with the PA system and with the doors endangering the lives of the passengers. not all teens do this which i agree because i am one myself, but the teens with no direction is to blame for giving us a bad reputation.
I think you have pretty well summed up the situation. Just as the lunatic who broke into the tower and threw the switch gives all railfans a bad name by association, so do the actions of a few teens tend to cast aspersions over all. As a father and grandfather I'll offer these words of advice: act responsibly, demonstrate your personal maturity, and be quietly proud that you yourself are a good citizen. Be sure that at the end of each day you can look back on what you have done, knowing you acted as an adult in a civilized society should. Be your best, and be confident that you will be respected for it. Ignore those who would dismiss you simply because of your age, your race, your religion, or even your intelligence, and don't dismiss the views of others for the same reason. (We didn't get to be this old by being totally stupid.) Do ask tough questions - and be prepared for tough answers. Do what you know in your heart is the right thing. Don't be afraid to stand up and be counted, even if it means you stand alone, when you know that you are right. And, when you are wrong, lick your wounds and learn from the experience. Life isn't a popularity contest, which is a good thing, because the truth is usually unpopular. Many of your fellow teens haven't learned that lesson yet, and until they do they will find themselves under automatic suspicion by those of us who have been around a few more decades than you have been. But we've been there too, and we're rooting for all of you. After all, you are our children - our future. Our society is depending on you to repeat our successes and learn from our failures so that this old world will last for generations to come.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm 18 years old, so I'm a legal adult. All I have to say is: "Those damn teenagers..."
My friends and I like to wear fake teeth that look like we only have four buck teeth and watch everybody glance at us with funny looks.
LOL...good harmless fun, now, THAT's way cool
Peace,
Andee
Back in the 50's to mid 60's if you were a teen,and wore a black leather jacket you were targeted as a trouble maker...no bones about it, thanks to all of those gang movies of the time,and as you, i rode the subways and elevateds for fun, any vandelisim was just not thought of.
Teenagers, and public transportation. This is a sticky subject in Toronto as well: Teenagers are generally blamed for everything and anything that goes wrong on the subway (and the streetcars and buses too) unfairly.
Delays on the subway are usually attributed to "those awful teenagers" who supposedly pull the emergency power cut switches on the subway platforms which shuts off the electricity supply to the third rail, etc, that can cause delays, despite the fact that there are announcements on the P.A. system explaining the real reason why, like technical difficulties, medical emergencies, and legitimate reasons for interrupting service. Perhaps if people actually listened to the P.A. announcements when they are made they'd realize that not everthing is the fault of the teenage population or the TTC - some things like freak electrical storms wreaking havoc with the signalling system just can't be controlled.
Holding the doors open on subway trains isn't generally a teenager caused problem either. Most of the time adults are the people responsible for this. Many have made a habit of diving into trains as the doors are shutting and catch a briefcase, or an arm, or a leg, or half their body in the doors, delaying the train. For whatever reasons there may be, most teenagers I see are quite content to merely wait for the next train to arrive instead of taking risks diving at the approximate location of the closing doors.
I might also add that I know of nobody myself included, who has ever seen anybody, teenage or not, disrupt streetcar service by pulling the trolley poles off the overhead wires with the ropes attached to the pole and the trolley retriever. As for pressing the emergency stop button on the escalators, I've only ever seen or heard of it being done once - and even then it wasn't a teenager who pressed it either.
Metrocards, yes, well, here we call them Metropasses. It was an old person over 50 years of age who went unnoticed for a long time in one station selling stolen Metropasses while all attention was being paid to the teenagers entering the subway... Fortunately this guy was caught, but only after someone complained about him; the transit security weren't being very proactive in investigating such an obviously suspicious activity, but were instead choosing to watch teenagers buy TTC tickets, a rather legitimate activity I would think.
Often on the subway, streetcars and buses, it is the adults who are the most openly disrespectful to other people, teenagers in particular, for no apparant reason. Consider holding doors to station enterances open long enough for the person behind you to be able to grab it. I always hold doors open in public places open long enough for the next person to grab it if they aren't too far behind as a matter of courtesy. This courtesy is rarely returend by adults to teenagers; many times I am almost in the doorway when the adult ahead of me lets the door go and it closes - on me! It's not like the person in front didn't look and therefore didn't see me there, they just don't bother holding the door for a few seconds.
It looks like the case in New York City is the same as that here in Toronto: Teenagers just aren't given much, if any respect, if the treatment lavished upon us by older people can even be considered respect.
-Robert King
Greetings!
Would really appreciate anyone with knowledge of a website(s)
with information on the old DRPA subway system that ran from
Camden, New Jersey, over the Ben Franklin Bridge and into
Philadelphia. Interested in the system, the types of cars that
were used, and where they were made and if any of the old original
cars still exist. Thanks in advance!
Several (six I believe) of the cars still exist; I am restoring one (#1023) at the Seashore Museum in Maine. I dont know of any websites, but perhaps I can answer any specific questions you have.
If you have access to them I would recommend:
- J William Vigrass' book on the Lindenwold High Speed Line
- Several BVTA publications put together as souvenirs for Broad Street line fantrips in the 1980s
They are good sources of info to get you started.
CONRAD MISEK
PATCO is still run by DRPA. Their website is at www.drpa.org.
www.drpa.ORG? Its not an org! At the very least it should be drpa.com, if not drpa.rip or drpa.screw or even drpa.gouge
Check the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers at dvarp.org. Also, SEPTA has one of the old Bridge Line cars in its historic fleet (I believe it's 1020, but I won't swear to it). PATCO kept 3 cars for a work train when it took over the line, and the last time I was at Lindenwold (the day after Thanksgiving last year) I was told by PATCO operators that they were still on the property.
By the way, I agree with the drpa.disorg comment made in a related post, but don't knock PATCO - DRPA may screw up a lot of things (and I can speak from experience, given the comedy of errors involved in trying to get an EZ Pass!), but PATCO is top-notch.
I was just mad that DRPA notched tolls up to $3 to pay for a new "Hi-Speed Container Ship Unloading Terminal" and an airal tramway across the Delaware. When will they learn that the key to cleaning up Camden is not a bunch of gimicks, but real industry that provides jobs. What good is a new container terminal when the rail freight system on the new Jersey side is woefully inadequate. Maybe they just plan to clog the area roads with trucks, oh joy. On the other hand they did bring the Battleship New Jersey to Camden and that may help to make things safer with in a 29 mile radius. Can you say "long range urban renewal? BOOM!". Still, Camden is pretty rotten, but I think ole BB-62 will prevail in the end. BOOM BOOM. Heck, it could clean up parts of Philly or even Chester for that matter.
Is it correct to assume that Flatbush Avenue Extension did not exist until the B.R.T. tunnels were constructed between Fulton Street and the Manhattan Bridge ?
Did Flatbush Avenue exist through Prospect Park before the six track I.R.T./B.R.T. tunnels (between Grand Army Plaza & Ocean Avenue / Empire Boulevard ) were constructed ?
South of Prospect Park station (Brighton line), beyond the now-abandoned tower room, there exists five steel columns supporting Lincoln Road. Do these columns pre-date the construction of the sloped concrete walls of the cut ?
I have seen a photograph of Prospect Park station (ca. 1915), where the camera is at Lincoln Road, facing northward. The stone walls of the present right-of-way of the shuttle are evident. There apparently was no street overpass in this area, north of Lincoln Road (until Washington Avenue ?) How were the streets configured before the layout was changed to a "flying junction" for the connection to DeKalb Avenue ?
Thanks.
I would assume that Flatbush Avenue Ext. was built when the bridge opened in 1905, not for the subway in 1920, but I don't know for sure. South of Fulton St., however, Flatbush is one of the oldest roads in Kings County (along with Kings Hwy. and Fulton St. itself), so it was around long before either Prospect Park or the Brighton Line, as was the town of Flatbush. Prospect Park is actually entirely to the west of Flatbush Ave.--the trees on the east side are in the Botanic Garden.
Flatbush Ave. was widened and straightened to its present alignment when the park was built, so at the time your photograph was taken it certainly should have been crossing the Brighton Line at its present location. Maybe they had already closed the street for construction of the line to DeKalb?
When is the new Hudson-Bergan Light Rail Line supposed to be in revenue service? I keep hearing here end of March, but i would like to know when. If anyone knows,please post it, cause my sister lives out near the line and id love to visit her.
I've heard March 24, but I can't confirm it. The openning date should be pretty close to that.
Today's Jersey (City) Journal quotes the president of the consortium that operates the trains as saying that there is no official opening date, but he expects public availability in late March or early April. A Jersey City employee says she heard there have to be thirty days of nonrevenue service matching scheduled runs beforehand. There was a major police presence at Exchange Place Monday, a precaution while the light rail cars were crossing despite the lack of the usual pedestrian flood.
What if any would prohibit the expansion of the current B div to Nassau County ? Something like capturing the Atlantic Ave Branch of the LIRR and remaking the Rockaway Park / Far Rockaway loop . Sending the A Clockwise and the AA counter clockwise , diverging at the Woodhaven/Ozone Park junction.
A nice target would be the Loop formed by the Hempstead / West Hempstead branches, the Ewould run clockwise, the EE would run counter clockwise.
Is there any ROW of the NY & Boston left in Westchester to be gobbled
up?
WE MUST HAVE LIVING SPACE! NIMBY BE DAMNED
Well, the Regional Plan Association has a proposal (if/when the 2nd Ave. Subway is ever built) to turn the LIRR Atlantic Avenue Branch into a rapid transit line.
Whether or not it will connect directly with LIRR at Jamacia is another story.
The only problem I see with this idea is that the A Line runs pretty much paralell with the LIRR Atlantic Branch through Brooklyn, so turning it into a branch of the NYCT would be somewhat redundant.
Doug aka BMTman
The MTA doesn't want to turn the Atlantic Branch into a B division line. It wants to dump a money loser on the MTA, and cut off LIRR service to Brooklyn. It would be redundant with the A/C on one side of Broadway Junction, and the J/Z on the other.
The only way this could be a winner is if the Jamaica Avenue line were pulled down between Jamaica and Broadway Junction, and stations were added along the Atlantic Branch to take its place. Then you'd be replacing an El with too many station with a subway with just a few. The J could start at Broadway Junction. To do this:
1) You'd need another couple of stations further east in East New York, one in Woodhaven, one in Richmond Hill, and one between those two at Woodhaven Blvd. That's five stations added (plus the existing three further west), and 10 deleted.
2) You'd need to tie the Atlantic Branch were tie in with the existing Archer Avenue line. One thing the A/C does not do is go to Jamaica. An Atlantic Express would be much faster connection from Jamaica to Downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn than the J/Z, provided...
3) You tied the Atlantic Branch in with the Montigue St tunnel. You still need to give people out there a one-seat ride. We don't need another G.
4) You may also be able to eliminate the A to Lefferts in this scenario. If the bus/subway connections could be planned correctly, it would be much faster to walk or hop a bus to an Atlantic Express from Ozone Park than to wait for and ride the A to Lefferts.
I suppose the premise here is that the LIRR Atlantic Branch would become redundant following completion of East Side Access.
In this case I always liked the idea of extending Air Train over the LIRR Atlantic Branch. That would give a one-seat ride direct from the JFK terminals at least to Downtown Brooklyn (or maybe lower Manhattan via the Manhattan Bridge someday). It would be a terrible shame if this ROW were wasted, but stranger things have happened (The LIRR Whitestone Branch, for one).
I feel you are correct, as a rapid transit line it would be redundant with the A/C, but I don't think tearing down els is a good idea. People in the community are used to them and their social structures and mobility patterns are structured around them. They may gripe about the noise and such, but els provide access at a reasonable price. Anyway portions of the Jamaica El were recently re-columned and should last for a while to come.
I understand that your comments are only "What-If", but I disagree with the traditional argument that real estate values go up when els are removed; market forces based on the strength of the economy determine the desirability of real estate. If location is paramount then proximity to transit is a plus, not a minus, to all but the SUV-ed bourgiose at least. And of course their idea of mobility is a 3-car garage.
Far too often we remove infrastructure to spur development that creates the demand for the very infrastructure we removed in the first place. Third Ave in Manhattan is a classic example. Development occurred because the 2nd Ave Subway was promised, not just because the el came down.
[Far too often we remove infrastructure to spur development that creates the demand for the very infrastructure we removed in the first place. Third Ave in Manhattan is a classic example. Development occurred because the 2nd Ave Subway was promised, not just because the el came down.]
That's an interesting twist on the Third Avenue story. Quite the opposite of what we usually hear.
(The East Side boomed because the 2nd Avenue Subway was promised, not because the 3rd Avenue El was torn down).
In promoting the #7 Flushing Line extention to the West Side over the 2nd Avenue Subway (as Conrad knows), Mayor Giuliani decided that since the East Side is already built out he couldn't get more development for his investment dollar by building the Second Avenue. On the other hand, a Flushing Line extention could lead to development, jobs, housing and tax revenues on the far west side.
The 2nd Avenue experience indicates you shouldn't build the Flushing line extention. You should just promise to build it. Then massive development will take place, with all those residents/businesses paying massive property taxes to the city. But -- ha ha ha -- the subway never comes, and they are stuck spending half an hour on a jammed cross town bus!
[In promoting the #7 Flushing Line extention to the West Side over the 2nd Avenue Subway (as Conrad knows), Mayor Giuliani decided that since the East Side is already built out he couldn't get more development for his investment dollar by building the Second Avenue. On the other hand, a Flushing Line extention could lead to development, jobs, housing and tax revenues on the far west side.
The 2nd Avenue experience indicates you shouldn't build the Flushing line extention. You should just promise to build it. Then massive development will take place, with all those residents/businesses
paying massive property taxes to the city. But -- ha ha ha -- the subway never comes, and they are stuck spending half an hour on a jammed cross town bus!]
I had thought that the Flushing line extension was part and parcel of the proposed West Side replacement for Yankee Stadium. In other words, no one from the Mayor on down is or was particularly interested in the extension except as part of the stadium deal.
In any event, I doubt that many businesses would suddenly get excited about the far West Side if the city did announce a planned Flushing line extension. After the Second Avenue fiasco, there seems to be a pretty well-developed (and completely justified) cynicism about "coming soon" developments.
Right. That also applies to the abridged Canarsie Line that occurred back in the 1920's before the area became a residential enclave.
Canarsie had "Golden City Park" which was a mini-Coney Island over by the present location of Canarsie Park. When the amusement park experienced a devastating fire -- and eventually closed -- the BMT saw no need for the excursion railroad (since they saw their prime revenues fall off). Today, being heavily populated, Canarsie sorely needs a rapid transit line that goes further into the heart of the neighborhood and not end at the fringe as it does now.
Doug aka BMTman
How about resurrecting the ROW all the way to Canarsie Pier?
Nice idea - it only goes usable as far as Flatlands then there's too many buildings/homes/etc. built on it.
Wayne
Bob, thanks for the thought there, but except for the first two blocks west of Rockaway Parkway, the remainder of the original Canarsie ROW is completely covered with residential structures. So resurrecting the ol' Brooklyn & Rockaway Beach RR line is moot. :-(
P.S. WELCOME BACK!
Doug aka BMTman
>>>How about resurrecting the ROW all the way to Canarsie Pier? <<<
Impossible, since 98% of that ROW has been built on since the 1940s, when the cars last ran.
www.forgotten-ny.com
02/24/2000
Does the NYCTA still legally own the ROW ? Or was the ROW turned over to the adjoining property owners? If the TA still owns the ROW and extending the Canarsie line out to the pier was on the books, the NIMBY's would cry fowl. Not In My Back Yard would be true, since resurrecting the line would return to their back yards. Also a problem with grade crossings would return too.
Don't count on service returning in our lifetime, I'm pretty sure the TA would say that there is bus service to the area anyway.
Bill Newkirk
On the west side of East 96th Street, just south of Glenwood Road, a fence blocks the ROW with the following sign: NO DUMPING, by order of NYCTA.
That's an old sign that may not exactly represent the current legalities regarding the ROW.
I do know that the Knights of Columbus of St. Pius X (located on Conklin Ave. between 95th and 96th Streets) has signage on the fencing along the Conklin side of the ROW proclaiming "Parking for KOC Members Only". This would indicate that either the TA is leasing it to them, or sold the ROW outright.
There could even be a "finders-keepers" type thing where the TA didn't upkeep the ROW and the Knights of Columbus may have just taken it upon themselves to put the land to use.
Doug aka BMTman
Which is a pretty good explanation of what adjoing property owners have done to the Rockaway Beach LIRR ROW. They've turned it into their own personal garbage dump. Some have even extended their back porches onto it's embankment.
Sounds like a good candidate for a "community service Crew" to work off their time to the good citizens of NYC.
Tearing down back porches?
You just posted message 99000.
We're only 1000 away from 100,000 now.
Cool. What do I win?
Membership to the order of humans faithful to the pigvolution.
It's called adverse posession, if you squat someplace long enough, and nobody tries to throw you out, it becomes yours, but government is exempt. If the NO DUMPING sign doesn't represent the current ownership, it at least shows what it once was.
I photographed that very sign last fall.
Another part of this plan could be to tie service from the Rockaways into the Atlantic Avenue line. The service would continue north on the Rockaway Beach branch ROW and enter the Atlantic branch near the old Woodhaven station. That would save some time from the Rockaways. (The Woodhaven station still exists, although it is out of service.)
On the western end, it could connect with the Montague St. tunnel, but it could also reach the Manhattan Bridge (assuming it survives) and the Rutgers St. tunnel. Eventually there might be a new East River tunnel connecting with the Second Ave. subway.
(A new tunnel)
Yes, maybe that's how we could get a new tunnel to replace that Manhatan Bridge. Just say the tunnel is needed to help southeast Queens and Nassau residents get to Lower Manhattan, and deny Brooklyn would get any benefit. Given our idiot politicians, we'd probably have a bunch opposed just to aid in the deception.
I beleive the riders to the Rockaways and the rest of eastern Queens and Nassua might releive the A train , it attracts a lot of Park and riders at Aquaduct ,Boyd ,and Hudson.
Are you a dentist? You took the words out of my Mouth.
Don't take this wrong, but any attempt to mangle the Jamaica Ave. el more than it already has will be shot by me. Dead. As in 6 feet under.
By all means. Let's preserve the Jamaica El in Lucite.
Then, maybe they'll build something decent for the trains to run on in its place.
(Preserve the Jamaica El in Lucite)
Given that such investments would be number 100 on the list of things for the MTA to do, and it is unlikely that they will get beyond 1 or 2, I'm not sure what point there is to this speculation.
But if they were to replace the Jamaica El with a new line on Atlantic Avenue, they could use the Jamaica/Broadway El for a bikeway.
Don't blame the el for the stupid way it was constructed. I have always maintained that with a few modifications, the line would be much better. eliminating the Fulton St. portion and replacing it with a structure over the entire length of Jamaica Ave. would eliminate that awful S curve at Crescent. Then the whole line could be 3 tracked for express service. Then, the J line would actually do what the Archer Ave. line was supposed to do, which was make the J line a more attractive alternative way to get to lower Manhattan.
Just for information sake, there is a closed station at Woodhaven. I remember in the 60's a few trains stopped there a day. You can still see it from the railfan window even though its very dark.
Yes it is still there. There is a bright light in what used to be the stairway exit and there are a few bare bulbs still in their saucer shades in the ceiling. The station looks structurally sound so theoretically all they would have to do is clean it, relight it and open the exit. The tile is still up - beige square tile with purple tablets every so often. It is tough to see unless you're up front.
Wayne
[re LIRR Woodhaven station]
[Yes it is still there. There is a bright light in what used to be the stairway exit and there are a few bare bulbs still in their saucer
shades in the ceiling. The station looks structurally sound so theoretically all they would have to do is clean it, relight it and open the exit. The tile is still up - beige square tile with purple tablets every so often. It is tough to see unless you're up front.]
You can tell when you pass the old Woodhaven station because the sound changes. It's hard to describe exactly what the change is like, but it's noticeable.
I heard there is actually a way in through the street surface. An emergency exit plate that tilts up, with a stairway underneath.
Of course, I would not encourage anyone to open it up. You need a triangular key, and the trains go by fast- enough to suck you onto the tracks- so I've heard.
In 1998, I rode this LIRR route for the first time in a while and was riding up front. If I remember correctly, the speed as we went past the abandoned underground station was 83 mph.
They went by there just as fast when the station was open. If I remember correctly in the 60's only 2 trains stopped at Woodhaven each way. However it is extremely dark there now.
I see the omission of the previous post,
A new line , the Rockaway loop at one end via atlantic Ave, Jamaica
Valley Stream , Far Rockaway, Broad Channel, Howard Beach, Big A
Ozone Park, and back on Atlantic ave , NO additional Stations, Xfer at
Atlantic ave to L train, Nostrand Ave , Xfer at Atlantic & Pacific
diverge West bound thru Rutgers Tunnel , Off Fline after east Broadway
on to J M Z , thru Nassau loop to Montogue back to Brklyn and Atlantic
Ave Branch.
Use all platforms and tracks at Chambers St .
IT would be veiwed like an infinite sign, but double , one
clockwise,one counter clockwise, super express thru Brooklyn until
Ozone Park or Woodhaven. Xfers at Atlatic Ave, York ,Canal , B'way
Nassua could get people further up town.
I borrowed the loop idea the fellows with the MTH subway cars
The LIRR Babylon branch splits in two just after Jamaica. One branch goes a little more south thru Locust Manor, the other thru St. Albans. These two track branches re-join just before Valley Stream. It might be possible to turn over one of them to the TA ... and maybe even the LIRR line that goes to Far Rockaway. This would be a way to provide more SUBWAY sevice to eastern Queens.
At Jamaica, or even just before you wouldn't even have to use the Atlantic Ave LIRR line, instead hook onto A at Lefferts or E/J/Z at Jamaica ... some tunneling in fact already exists for this.
With the LIRR Atlantic Ave line you could run super express service, BUT then you would have a lot of folks in Brooklyn, so you would also need another tunnel to Manhattan.
Mr t__:^)
The branch to which you refer has long been the subject of Southeastern Queens Lines. The intention of the Archer Avenue subway was to use it when construction began.
There have been several discussions here in SubTalk over the role that the NIMBY has played in making sure that these kinds of lines will never be built.
The ROW are already in place, I think NIMBY in most cases is a ploy used by those who won't profit, not benifit from a wide area improvement
Gary is absolutely correct. The tunnel branch goes 3,000 feet in that direction, according to the subway track map by Peter Dougherty.
The folks there aren't rich & have only bus service now, so I don't understand their opposition to the extension.
Mr t__:^)
Configure the platforms of any new stations along the line to IRT specs, and hook it up to the IRT at Flatbush Avenue.
I'd rather keep it LIRR, though--it's a quick ride from Jamaica to Brooklyn; I frequently use it during the summer.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I had that idea awhile back -- LIRR Subway Service. IRT cars (or similar) would depart Jamacia station and run on the current Atlantic Avenue Branch.
It's basically the same, except the LIRR would have to re-instate August Belmont's rail-spur at Atlantic Avenue so the IRT cars from the LIRR could enter the system and continue on to Wall Street.
I see we think alike :-)
Doug aka BMTman
Hookingthe LIRR up to the IRT at Atlantic would be easier than hooking up another line, but still not easy -- getting the East New York-bound trains connected to either the current 4/5 or 2/3 lines would require a flying junction and with the Atlantic (Ave D/Q) to the east, and the Pacific (Street B/M/N/R) to the west, that would be quite a tight fit.
I think that the only practical way to connect the east bound IRT Fulton Street Subway to the East Bound LIRR is to use part of the original provision to the Nevins Street Lower Level, but then tunnel below the existing lower level station because the track must now cross under the IND Schermerhorn (Boerum Place) Subway. Such a tunnel could then cross under the existing tracks and then rise in place of one of the existing LIRR tracks.
Any MP-41 cars left in the world?
02/24/2000
"Any MP-41 cars left in the world ?"
LONG GONE !!
Bill Newkirk
turning the lirr atlantic branch into a subway is a bad idea. The area around flatbush terminal is an excellant area for the city to focus on putting office tenants priced out of manhattan. It has it all. Access to both city dwellers and people from LI. Plenty of underused land for residential expansion. It is close to the arts. The MTA should have built a new headquarters over the terminal as part of the proposed mall instead of moving to lower manhattan. It would have beeen more cost effective. The MTA outbid goldman sachs for the 2 broadway site. As a result goldman is building an office tower in Jersey city and is relocating many jobs there
If it would fit, I'd like to see an arena (such as the one proposed for the doomed Sportsplex) at Atlantic Terminal. All of Brooklyn could get there by train. Great for basketball games. Might get a minor league team, or a WNBA team.
Larry, are you aware that something is afoot at Floyd Bennett in the way of a Sportsplex?
Don't get TOO excited: from what a Gateway Park Ranger friend of mine told me it will be similar to what's on the westside of Manhattan (just a mixed use complex of indoor hockey and basketball, handball and tennis courts).
The proposed Floyd Bennett Sportsplex location is the old US Coast Guard Station area (part of the field facing Jamacia Bay).
Doug aka BMTman
(Proposed Sportsplex at Floyd Bennett)
I never get too excited, but it's nice to dream. Wait until the Marine Park and Mill Basin NIMBYs get ahold of that one. Floyd Bennett is a waste of space -- with a highway right next to it -- in borough starved for recreation.
But from a transportation point of view, for Windsor Terrace residents Floyd Bennet might as well be in New Jersey. Now if they would allow the private sector to build some entertainment and recreation facilities on the Brooklyn Piers that would be different, but Brooklyn Heights residents want a park designed NOT to attract people from outside the neighborhood, at our expense.
Is that shades of an Ebbets Field replacement?
(Sportsplex at AT an Ebbits field replacement)
Most of the Brooklyn pols are people who have been running the place since the Dodgers left. They haven't noticed that the composition of the place has changed. A basketball arena might draw more fans.
A domed staidum at Aquaduct Racetrack would make more sense, hiways as well as public transport and lots of rooooooooooom.
The area at Flatbush Terminal is ripe for development, but is also full of nimbys who have prevented anything being built there for 25 years...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Try since 1955, when the Dodgers started playing some games over in Jersey City. It was proposed back then for a replacement to Ebbets Field, and boy would have Sea Beach Fred been happy. Then he could have taken his Sea beach Local to see DEM BUMS. The most likely the Angels would have been in still in LA and Anaheim would have what the Mets would have been
The Mets came in from the never started Continental League. Was there an LA area proposed franchise in the CL?
I received another bid for the second ave subway This one was for 383 million dollars for a 6 mile line. Again way below 3.3 billion for 3 miles. I now have 4 (four) bids for the second ave subway The most expensive one more than 1 billion dollars less than transits attempted embezzelment for 3 miles of track
As a way to pay for the 2nd Ave line the MTA could lease out the already dug parts to a mushroom farm and use the money to pay for expanding the line...
Except for two things:
1. The MTA tried leasing the space out years ago and nobody wanted it (or at least nobody was willing to pay whatever the MTA was asking).
2. Of the 3 already dug parts, 2 are to be part of the line that is now being proposed, and the third would be used if the line were extended to lower Manhattan.
David
02/24/2000
3.Leasing the space for mushroom farms, wine cellars etc. would be scandalous, showing taxpayer money used for purposes other than a subway line.
Bill Newkirk
This would be worse than the tunnels just sitting empty? At least there would be some revenue generated. At the rate the Second Avenue subway is being compleated, we will all be riding gate cars and HI-v's forever before a single train runs on Second Avenue. For that matter, we can all ride the Second Avenue El!
Things I've seen in the last few days convince me that far from discussing a Second Avenue Subway, we should be talking about future
transit cutbacks.
1) As per Comptroller Hevesi, the city is so deep in debt it will have to cut its capital spending by 35 percent beginning in FY 2001.
2) The City will have massive budget deficits -- assuming it does not provide any raises to its employees, who are already leaving for other jurisdictions. The state is in even worse shape.
3) The City is looking to fund its budget by raiding the pension fund, assuming stock prices will not decline. The unions also want to raid the pension fund for big benefit increases -- our state comptroller McCall is fighting to let that happen. Only Hevesi has objected. The result -- future pension deficits, and zillions diverted to those already better off than us retirees.
4) The City's welfare roll declines have lagged the nation. In any event, cash welfare is now just a small part of the city's social services spending.
5) The state is handing out "certificates of need" for nursing homes like they are going out of style -- these come with an implied guarantee of whatever Medicaid funding is "necessary." More have been handed out in the past few years than in decades before.
In short, those with power are grabbing for the benefits of the economic expansion -- present and future -- with both hands, while the MTA is seeking funding for EISes in the expectation of funding actual construction in the future. HA!
[Things I've seen in the last few days convince me that far from discussing a Second Avenue Subway, we should be talking about future
transit cutbacks.
1) As per Comptroller Hevesi, the city is so deep in debt it will have to cut its capital spending by 35 percent beginning in FY 2001.]
There will be no need for capital spending cuts if the city cuts Medicaid spending. All it would have to do is reduce per-captia Medicaid spending to something only moderately higher than the nationwide level. Absolutely nothing on the face of the Earth justifies total city Medicaid spending that is higher than the entire state of California's. Nothing.
[2) The City will have massive budget deficits -- assuming it does not provide any raises to its employees, who are already leaving for other jurisdictions. The state is in even worse shape.]
See my comments about Medicaid cuts. And as far as employee "defections" are concerned, I highly doubt that the city will have any trouble filling vacanies even without raises, considering that its unemployment rate is still well above the national average.
[3) The City is looking to fund its budget by raiding the pension fund, assuming stock prices will not decline. The unions also want to raid the pension fund for big benefit increases -- our state
comptroller McCall is fighting to let that happen. Only Hevesi has objected. The result -- future pension deficits, and zillions diverted to those already better off than us retirees.]
It's about time that city officials showed even the slighest bit of courage and actually stood up to the unions.
[4) The City's welfare roll declines have lagged the nation. In any event, cash welfare is now just a small part of the city's social services spending.]
Now that surprises me - I had though that the city's welfare declines were substantial.
[5) The state is handing out "certificates of need" for nursing homes like they are going out of style -- these come with an implied guarantee of whatever Medicaid funding is "necessary." More have been
handed out in the past few years than in decades before.]
Funny, the state of Connecticut has flatly prohibited any new nursing home construction or expansion for the past several years. And life goes on. I believe some other states have done the same. But no, New York has to be "different."
[In short, those with power are grabbing for the benefits of the economic expansion -- present and future -- with both hands, while the MTA is seeking funding for EISes in the expectation of funding
actual construction in the future. HA!]
Maybe if NYC voters weren't brainless clones who automatically vote for the latest limousine liberal candidate, and actually produced some competitive races, the policial system would function better.
Does it really matter. Except maybe for the 2nd Av Deli (is it still there/) and a possible transfer to the Roosevelt Is. Tramway there is no place worth going to on Second Av anyway.
As with all the previous bids this one too is well below 3.5 billion dollars. The cost is 383 million for a six mile subway. twice the length of transits plan and ten percent of the price
I hope the bid is signed...
PROVE IT
-Hank
my brother in law works for the MTA at the 180 th st. train yard. he has told me that they are almost done testing the R 142's and that the rumor is it will be in service for the passengers by mid to late April! if anything goes wrong with them during their tests, then the debut will be extended till around may or june. keep you all posted on the details
See Transit Transit this month for a look inside that shop & the R-142.
Mr t__:^)
Yesterday I went to NYC to take photos on Redbirds. I observed that the R33 cars on #4 are from 9216 to 9305 except 9224 and 9225.
I saw 6 #4 Redbird trains in an hour. Just like an old saying,
Birds of feather flock together.
Chaohwa
The old saying should be, "Birds of a feather flock together."
Chaohwa
I was once waiting at Grand Central to get on a downtown express, and each train after another (alternating 4/5) was a Redbird! I finally took a #5 train downtown, I couldn't wait. I should have taken a local, although with my luck, the next train after the one I took was an R-62
#9225 is over on the #2 line, mated to #9130. #9224 was lost to fire
years ago.
Wayne
I visited the Red Caboose yesterday. I found an interesting R32 model train. It is very beautiful. But It costs 850 dollars. I cannot afford it.
There are also some R10, R15, R17, R22, R46 models, and so on. They are too expensive for me to buy them.
Chaohwa
What scale, n,z,ho, o , I suspect brass 0 , several years back the were in Ho , some brass and some epoxy.
ive seen r40 models at the transit museum..O scale if i remember right. they looked nice, but even if i saw them in ho scale, they are waayyy too high in my price range.
The price at the transit Museum,about $300.00 plus tax for a 4-car set with sound .Check Various Model train mags
and save about $75.00 some with , some without sound.
You can usually get the 4 car O gauge set with sound for about $230-$250 at local train shows. I saw them at the Greenberg show at Stony Brook a few weeks ago and also at the St. Vincent's show in Elmont about a month ago.
Those are the MTH R-42 cars, Bob. And for the price it sounds like those are the rebuild versions (in E train route markings and w/o the blue TA color scheme).
I have a set of "add-on" cars for last year's offering from MTH: the R-42 in the original TA colors with the D Train route markings.
Incidentally, the Transit Museum sells the four-car Proto-sounds sets for about $330, so if you're able to find the sets at area train shows -- go for it! Your apt to save anywhere from $75 to $100 over the Museum price!
Doug aka BMTman
The MTH sets with the Blue stripe are becoming increasingly harder to find. On E-Bay they are starting the bidding around $300 for the non proto-sound models. The 'E' models are going for $175 and up.
BTW: Has anyone seen the MTH CTA Cars???
Not yet , but in "O Guage Rail-Roading I saw a Union Pacicic Doodlebug
in typical UP Yellow. Page 32. MTH cat. 2000 Vol. Two
The MTH Chicago Transit Set is not due to be issued until May 2000.
It looks like an HO model.
Chaohwa
Must be brass.
Yes, it is brass. I like that model very much.
Chaohwa
It's a nice place to see what's available if you're in the neighborhood, as Doug the BMT man & I were two weekends ago. Too bad more local hobby shops don't carry RT/trolley cars. We actually found something inexpensive to buy.
P.S. They also have a lot of Amtrak stuff.
Mr t__:^)
!!$850 dollars?!?!?!
Geez ... they sold for $600 when MTS made them available!
--Mark
Red Caboose is very expensive & i don't buy stuff but i only buy Kato Untrack & N scale only. I don't like the people who work at Red Caboose because they have bad attitude. Also i went to NYCTM @ GCT & i ask someone what happen to R42 subway cars. They says they sold out & they not going to get more R42 subway cars. But i really want R42 so i can put display on my shelf.
Peace Out
David Justiniano
Yes, I too think they price the stuff too high & don't have the best attitude toward customers, BUT it's a nice place to LOOK at stuff if you're in the area. I did buy a Philly trolley book & a magazine on two recent trips. I love an excuse to walk in Manhattan, the Red Caboose gives me something to do when I'm on the surface ;-)
Mr t
David, Look on ebay under MTH Subway. 3 4-car sets and 2 add-on sets are currently up for bid. Be prepared to pay over $300 for the powered set. If it's just for display, look for the unpowered add-on.
If 63rd Street is open before the TA decides to reroute the trains from one side of the bridge to another, will they be running "Q" service out to Forest Hills during weekdays and run the "B" there on weekends, or will they wait until the bridge sides closes to prepare?
Yes, they will :-)
Seriously, the service plan will be What It Is, When It Is. Since the plan isn't finished yet, there's no point in asking what the plan will be.
David
AMEN
well--- the reporter from the daily news called this
morning and we had a nice talk--- he wanted to know
if people on subtalk had similar inclinations as the
young man who seems drawn to serious mayhem with the
transit system--- i assured him that everyone here
deplores what the young man did and that our own
interests in transit were very respectful of the law
and the rights of others--- and i wasn't bs'ing
him---it's true--- he asked about my own interests
in transit--- and after about 30 minutes of
listening to me ramble aimlessly about the key to
the food locker, the defective tow line, niagara
falls, and the R1/9 motorman's cab i built--- he
said he would arrange to have a photographer come to
take some pictures--- i don't know whether they
might use it in their follow up article on railfans
or a forthcoming article on the walking wounded---
so all these months of my making a public spectacle
of myself here on subtalk will be rewarded by
getting the opportunity of making a public spectacle
of myself across the whole city---
i approached my conversation with the reporter with
a keen awareness that we have a rich mixture of
people on this site whose interests in transit are
expressed in a wide variety of positive and
constructive ways--- i really believe that--- i am very proud to have found this site and feel part of it--- i feel very fortunate to have the opportunity to get to know so many people here.....
I totally agree with Paul. To be a railfan, you have to respect every aspect of the transit operation, but not to interfere with it.
I don't think a guy who slipped into a controlling center and played around it is a true railfan. Railfans are observers. If you want to play the signal system or operate a train, go apply a TA job.
Chaohwa
It is interesting to note that in todays Daily News article about the incident thya downplayed the tower angle and played up the the fact that an emergency cord was pulled.
Peace,
Andee
It is interesting to note that in todays Daily News article about the incident they downplayed the tower angle and played up the the fact that an emergency cord was pulled.
Peace,
Andee
You forgot the 5 exceptions. Railfans can interact when:
They have permission.
When its abandonned.
When safety's at stake (like debris on the tracks).
When its a shortline and nobody's around.
When they see a valuable artifact going to waste.
Yes, I spoke w/him too...and I also told him how we all feel that what this person did was reprehensible...I just hope he doesn't put a negative spin on it...time will tell
Moe, larry.. cheese. (alas, the full moon also affects me...heypaul has no exclusive on it)
Peace,
Andee
Why didn't he e-mail me! It's probably because he FEARS the coming PIGVOLUTION! He will be the first to perish when pigkind takes the world.
There are two reasons he didn't contact you. I for one pleaded with him not to. And secondly, the possible article will be a human interest story.
You'll just have to wait for the revolution. When the revolution comes we will have to listen to your squeals and look at your snout...
[And secondly, the possible article will be a human interest story.]
But doesn't that disqualify you, heypaul?
And besides, interviewing you for the Daily News would only cause the poor man some serious brain damage later in life....
Doug aka BMTman
Mmmmmffff! Roquefort!
wayne :o>
To any current motormen posting here, I'd just like to ask how the job is these days. How do YOU feel about your job? Good points and bad. How's the TA and the union?
I was a conductor years ago. I recently took the motorman's test and am thinking about coming back. I'd appreciate your thoughts.
Many thanks.
Mick, You might want to consider posting again, but this time with your return e-mail address visable for private replys.
If you're new to this board ... just stick around & you'll see comments by several T/O, Stn Agents, Supt., etc. Eye work for the system, but at a "private" bus depot.
Mr t__:^)
I am a motorman in Chicago, on the Chicago Elevated, employed by the Chicago Transit Authority. I used to love my job so much until OPTO came, and it sucks! I feel like someone who just broke up with his girl freind, heartbroken. I don't look foward to coming to work as often as I used to. The job isn't fun anymore, morale in my 14 glorious years has never been lower, I never thoght I'd say this, but now it's just a paycheck.
You all are doing a nice job out there and we, the riders, appreciate it. I have not had a bad ride on the L and my daughter is a daily rider (Rave and Howard). Her car has been in my garage since the end of October. You are doing such a good job she dosent need the car
THANKS
If the transit authorities knew that they were not going to build the Second Ave. subway by late 1954, why did they sanction the destruction of the Third Ave El in Manhattan in mid-1955? Why did they leave the Lexington Ave line "naked" as the east side's only subway line? Was it politics as usual? Or was there lots of money to be made by tearing down the el and beautifying third ave? Lots of rhetorical questions here.
Carl M.
Ask Hulan Jack, Borough President of Manhattan in 1955. I understand he wanted the "el" torn down in the worst way. I also understand that he personally benefitted from the "el" being torn down, though I heard the details years ago and don't remember them.
David
David..I'm sure Mr. Jack is no longer with us. If he was, he would be too old to explain.
Carl M.
I'm aware that Mr. Jack is either dead or ancient. I was just trying to give some background in a colorful way. We can't all be heypaul :-)
David
02/24/2000
The demise of the Third Avenue "el" was the real estate interests pressure for removal of the structure so new high rises can be built on Third Avenue. That sounds like politcs to me.
Bill Newkirk
As much as I despise the removal of any el, 3rd. Avenue benefitted greatly from it's removal. Look at 3rd. Ave today and again in 1948 or so. Big change...
While the structure would have never qualfied for an architectural award, it was carrying about 270,000 daily users in the late 1940's -- far more than most rapid transit lines do today.
02/24/2000
Chris R-16,
True, but at least leave the "el" up to build a replacement subway line. How would things be if the 6th and 9th Avenue "els" were razed before the replacement 8th Avenue and 6th Avenue subways could replace service. Remember the 2nd Avenue subway was proposed in the 20's, they still could have built it during the depression knowing the need for jobs.
Bill Newkirl
Except the people on the upper east side didnt want to be that accesible.
[If the transit authorities knew that they were not going to build the Second Ave. subway by late 1954, why did they sanction the destruction of the Third Ave El in Manhattan in mid-1955? Why did they leave the Lexington Ave line "naked" as the east side's only subway line? Was it politics as usual? Or was there lots of money to be made by tearing down the el and beautifying third ave? Lots of rhetorical questions here.]
There are a variety of reasons:
1) People really thought that the Second Avenue line would be built soon.
2) The El was getting rather decrepit and would have required major renovations if it were to be retained.
3) Third Avenue was quite rundown in parts due to the gloomy El structure.
4) The 1950's were not a good time for transit in general, what with suburbanization and the rise in automobile usage.
I'm sure there were other reasons as well.
The 1951 bond issue was passed on the presumption that the money would be used to build the 2nd Ave. line. The BOT then used the money for improvements to existing lines. In retrospect, it wasn't a bad move, given the overall condition of the subway system back then. It has been said that had the 2nd Ave. line been built in the 50s, it would have been working fine while all the others would be falling apart.
Supposedly, that same bond issue called for extending the IRT Nostran Ave. line as well. Brian Cudahy offered a tidbit in Under the Sidewalks of New York, saying that a realtor once sold a house to a newlywed couple in Flatbush with the promise that the subway line would be extended soon. He concludes by saying the newlyweds have retired and moved to Florida while the subway remains to be built.
Brian Cudahy offered a tidbit in Under the Sidewalks of New York, saying that a realtor once sold a house to a newlywed couple in Flatbush with the promise that the subway line would be extended soon. He concludes by saying the newlyweds have retired and moved to Florida while the subway remains to be built.
I'm surprised that couple didn't file a lawsuit against the realtor for misrepresentation :)
--Mark
Another interesting point is how they suffocated the el's ridership in its last decade. First they kept chopping away at the southern terminal - South Ferry, then City Hall, then Chatham Sq. Then they cut the days and hours of service. By 1955, there wasn't much left to close down. Of course, the CTA was then building comfortable lightweight "L" cars (the 6000's) and NYC was building a parallel elevated - the FDR Drive above South Street. If they were serious about transit this could have included a transit median to replace the Pearl Street el. So arguments that the el was a blight and that ridership was dwindling seem weak to me.
I realize fully that 1955 was a different time with different people and a different culture than today (though I didn't come along till '66!). But certainly a few things could have been done to make the el a better neighbor - noise insulation, better trains, maybe removing the center track in favor of island platforms to let more sunshine down onto the street. Fewer stations and skip-stop would have worked.
But had the el survived, today it would certainly be a landmark. I think the development pressures that transformed Yorkville would have largely occurred anyway, with perhaps the excpetion of some frontage on 3rd Ave itself. Imagine a direct transit link from the Upper East Side to Wall Street; perfect O/D pairs, and the Victorian stations (if tastefully restored) would be quite a hit.
The CTA will charter anyone an "L" train at anytime (except rush hours) for any function, and also has organized Chicago sightseeing by el train tours. Pity we didn't save at least the 3rd Ave el - it could be an integral a part of popular culture today. The columns would make perfect traffic calming devices.
BTW, to pick up on a(n) (excellent) Larry Littlefield comment - perhaps if the city has only PROMISED to tear down the el, and PROMISED to build the 2nd Ave Subway, everything would still be as it is now......
The thing about the El's is, they obstructed traffic on the street, and made it less usable for vehicles. Even if the impact on residents could be reduced the traffic constricting effect would remain.
Subtalkers might not mind obstructing private autos, and they might argue that the El would take the place of local buses. But express buses and trucks from the north have to use those avenues to get to the Manhattan CBC.
if you replace the diamond lanes on 1st and 2nd Ave with LRV you would not be as effecttive as the subway but it would be much more effective than the platoons of buses that now run up and down the streets (is it 2nd and 3rd that are paired, its been a while)
LRV's have greated cappacity and perform better on lines with heavy ridership than buses. You don't want to run in the center streetcar style but the left or right side of the street can be dedicated for the LRV and you can do curbside boarding without disrupting trafic. You can reduce emmisions from the buses and move tons (literaly) of people.
That's exactly how Denver's light rail operates on street running portions.
how does it work?
Is it faster than buses?
Nice Comment.
Of course we are already almost 50 years hence.
One of prevailing corporate idiocyncracies of the era ws deferred maintenence and writing-off devalued assets. I can not say this applied to municiple rapid transit systems, but some strange things occurred in NYC transit in the early 50's. For instance, the 3rd Ave El in Manhattan and the Lexington Ave El in Brooklyn were torn down.
I made some comment last year about a possible sweetheart deal where the LIRR Rockaway Line became part of the IND (NYCTA) subway system.
The remaining piece of the Fulton Ave El went with that deal also.
On the social/transit side, both national league baseball teams left New York. (decreasing the transit revenue from that source)
I doubt the city made any money on the scrap value of the structures.
More than likely, someone was paid to haul it away so they could sell the scrap. The north side section and the South Beach portions of SIRT were abandoned. Trolley cars completely disappeared, even where they had good reason to be, and upgraded (although they were running on downgraded heavy rapid trasit tracks on the bridges). You can not convince me that the Qbridge (the last built to operate rapid transit) was in any way incapable of performing that task. Again, it seemed strange that the old Myrtle Ave line was terminated at Jay and but lasted for many years and no thought was ever made of keeping the and using the original structure as a light rail to and over the BBridge. (This, at minimum, may have kept downtown Brooklyn a viable business center possibly until now.) The Bronx was another story.
Just like the current posts about the Canarsie Line and when and where there is no rapid transit service. Someone made acomment about express busses using 2nd & 3rd Ave. That is the absolute zero of Rapid Transit.
02/23/2000
Today I decided to take an )A) express out to Bway-east NY to check on the (L) line. At Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts., I boarded an (A) and an announcment came over the PA. "Due to police action we will be running local to Euclid Ave". The head car I was in let loose with the usual groans. Enroute I noticed 3 R-44 (A) trains standing still on the express tracks. Backed up I guess.
At Utica Avenue, I got off and there was an R-44 (A) in the station with no passengers aboard. One car, #5248, had a police photographer taking photographs at the advertisment card above. I guess for a bullet hole or two. On the floor were those lettered indicators placed where shell casings had landed. I asked a police captain on the platform if there was a shooting aboard. He said yes and there were no fatalites.
About 10 minutes the two keyed door panels were closed and the train dead headed, possibly to Pitkin yard. In a couple of minutes the first of the backed up (A)'s pulled into Utica and I got on to go to Bway-East NY. I have no idea how long the backed up (A)'s were sitting in the tunnels with passengers stewing.
Hey Sarge! This is not far from your territory in Brooklyn, hear anything?
Bill Newkirk
reporting
Hey, Bill, what time of day did this incident occur?
I ride the A every day (to get the L at Bway/East NY) and didn't see anything out of the ordinary. I assume this happenned sometime between the rush-hours (mid-dayish?).
BTW, did you notice the new trackage on P1 between The Junction and Atlantic Avenue? It's only been there for a little over a month.
Doug aka BMTman
02/24/2000
Doug aka BMT Man,
Yes I saw that renew P1 track, in fact, that's why I went there.
As far as the incident is concerned, I don't know when it happened, but I arrived at Utica Avenue about 12:50 PM. About 10 minutes later (1PM), the first backed up (A) trains enroute to Lefferts or Far Rock arrived with passengers that didn't look to happy. Anything on the news about this? Or is gunfire an everyday occurance?
Bill Newkirk
I dunno about everyday but there was gunplay on the "A" at Chambers St-H&M back on February 7, 1998 which continued off the train and up into the mezzanine. Everybody (myself included) hit the floor when the gun went off and #5341 wound up with a bullet hole in the floor and another one through the glass partition and into the wall. One of the few times terror struck me while riding the subway.
Wayne
I watched a man kill a woman once on the # 7 train at Grand Central about 10 years ago. I still get spooked when I remember it.
02/23/2000
Yes, it was a matter of time, but they painted over the "Canarsie" sign. Reported on this site a short time ago, was an unearthed find at the Times Square subway complex near the Broadway BMT area. With the Times Square subway complex rebuilding on going, possibly a sign was removed and exposed an old painted sign on the wall that said "Canarsie".
This was discussed as a possible shortcut to direct people to the 14th Street "Canarsie" line. Well, I was there today and wouldn't you know it, THEY PAINTED OVER IT!!!
Right above it I made out "Coney Island" which proved there was more there at one time years ago. If you have photos, cherish them, if not, maybe find someone who will make a dupe. Or even visit it on Kevin Walsh's www.forgotten-ny.com site. Kevin Walsh, take note !!
Bill Newkirk
Shows you how much contractors care about transit history.
Here's a picture I took a couple of months ago:
Canarsie picture
Much as it was exciting to find the sign, did you really expect they wouldn't get rid of it eventually?
Another piece of history has also vanished from the scene at Times Square: the last remaining original "Down Town Express Trains" sign was removed from the southbound 7th Ave. platform a few years ago.
I walked through there last night and saw it was painted over you can just make out the tops of the letter..
Another piece of history gone...
You mean the Canarsie sign, right? The one I was referring to is physically gone.
>>>Or even visit it on
Kevin Walsh's www.forgotten-ny.com site. Kevin Walsh, take note !! <<<
I have a photo of just the Canarsie section, if anyone needs a scan. It's on one of my subway pages on Forgotten NY.
The MTA is relentless in its nontolerance of nonstandard signage. I suppose there was no real method of preserving it, since it was a painted sign, not a wooden or porcelain plaque.
I imagine there are plans for that space. Probably a dotcomillionaire wants to put an ad there...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Jodi says that since they painted over the word 'Canarsie' she can see more words such as 'West' and 'Island' I'm thinking at one time the sign read 'Trains to Coney Island via Sea Beach and West End' and 'This way to Canarsie'
-Hank
Was the Sea Beach (today's N) sharing the Broadway line with the R in the 1910s, when the sign was painted?
The nearest West End transfer is at 34th St and the nearest Canarsie Line transfer is at 14th. The sign probably had a lot of writing on it...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The West End ran on Broadway when that sign was painted, along with the Culver and Brighton lines.
-Mark W.
I don't believe that Culver trains ever ran along Broadway. They used the Nassau Loop once it opened in 1931. I stand corrected in advance if I'm wrong.
The Broadway line opened as far as Times Square in, IIRC, 1917 or 1918. Sea Beach trains originally terminated at Chambers St. when the first Dual Contracts BMT lines opened in 1915.
This reminds me of when I boarded car #9718. This car had a piece of an old strip map of the 7 line (when its color was orange) already under some paint (the western half was under the paint). They painted over that completely a year or two before they painted over the CANARSIE sign. I sure miss that old strip map.
"The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which runs JFK, says that starting March 1, a global positioning system will track the movements of the estimated 70 buses that operate on the airport grounds."
The Daily New article continues . . .
Gosh, the busses have *never* bunched up on the way to the Howard Beach station! (LOL).
http://muni.nextbus.com/cgi-bin/muni/StopList?route=22
This will take yopu to a demo of one of the vendors who is selling such a system in the Bay Area. Ultimately if it really works I see two major benefits. One if the info is on the web you can check to see if there is a problem and far more important in the long run central dispatchers will have real time location of all of the buses, etb's, LRV's etc without having to pay someone to stand on a corner writing it down.
...ar more important in the long run central dispatchers will have real time location of all of the buses, etb's, LRV's etc without having to pay someone to stand on a corner writing it down.
B & Q Transit had and used a central real time tracking system for their LRV's and trolley coaches 70 years ago.
can you explain how this system worked for B & Q transit. Thanks!!
I think it worked just like the system for the subway today.
I don't have first hand knowledge. This is how it was probably done, based on the the story I heard and the technology available at that time. The wire system was divided into a set of blocks. A trolley entering a block would actuate a relay which would increment a cause a counter associated with that block to increment. A trolley leaving the block would cause the same counter to decrement and the next counter to increment. The counters were arranged on a board in the form of a map at B & Q Transit headquarters.
The existence of this system gave rise to a bit of folklore about an unusual case of theft of service in the late 1930's. It seems that on weekends the system showed more coaches running on the Cortelyou Rd line than were scheduled. A plainclothes observer was sent out, after the system was thoroughly checked for any problems. He discovered PSCT all service buses using the trolley wires doing charters to Coney Island. In those days the company gave the drivers cash for gas and tolls. No receipts were required. The drivers saved a few cents in gas money by running electric along 16th Ave.
can you explain how this system worked for B & Q transit. Thanks!!
Just curious if it was any of you folk that was out taking pictures at Dyckman St sb on Monday 2/21 at about 1:30p. If it was, I would like to see the picture of me eating my glasses.
Now on eBay, Item #268342562, bidding closes March 1:
Baseball Schedule, 1952, for New York Yankees at Yankees Stadium, Brooklyn Dodgers at Ebbets Field and New York Giants at Polo Grounds. This is an extemely rare collectible published by the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad (Hudson Tubes, now PATH or Port Authority Trans Hudson) in 1952. One side, printed white, green and blue, has the schedule of the three major league New York-based teams. The other side, printed in black and red, is a subway route map shows the Hudson and Manhttan Railroad and BMT, IND and IRT subway lines and connections leading to each of the stadiums. This is an extemely rare baseball and subway collectible, showing the three teams before the Dodgers left for Los Angeles.. It is a 3-panel fold, and overall condition is B+ to A-. •For further info or for additional items that may be listed in the category above, do eBay Seller Search for JoePCC699@AOL.com. New items are added on almost a daily basis. Check our listings as often as possible; you would not want to miss some item you may have been looking for. We have over 25,000 items in all categories to be listed in the future.
I'm looking for anyone on subtalk who collects kaydee N scale cars or knows someone who does. I'm looking for information and not trying to sell anything.
Kadee does not make N-scale any more. It's all Micro-Trains now. Apparently there was a "family feud" within the company a few years ago, and the HO (and larger) stuff went with one of the brothers who owned the Kadee name, and the other brother moved the N-scale line to anothr town nearby and started using the name Micro-Trains.
Thanks for the insight. However, I am more interested in where I can get listings of cars, road #s and collector values.
This afternoon at about 3:30, I was riding a downtown 9 train on my way to South Ferry. After we left the World Trade Center I glanced out the window and briefly saw the interior of what looked to be an R142. I was thinking maybe it was an R110, because I haven't heard of the R142's testing on mainline tracks yet. The interior is very bright, and the seats were red. I only got a quick 1-2 second look at the train, though. Another thing. At Rector street, I saw an empty 5 train. Are there tracks connecting the Lex. Avenue IRT and the 7th Avenue IRT?
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
The Lex and 1 are connected via the SOuth Ferry Loop. At South Ferry a train can be switched from the outer to the inner loop or vice versa. The inner loop connects to the Lex while the outer loop connects to the 1 line.
They're also connected at the Bronx end. It's possible for any train through 149st and GC southbound from either the White Plains Rd line or the Jerome Ave line to get right back there on the opposite level without changing ends.
-Hank
Clark:
I was on the uptown '3' at roughly the time on Wednesday you describe. As we bypassed Houston Street, I saw a very strange looking train on the local track. Since the express tracks are lower than the local, I couldn't tell if there were people on it, but figured I'd better get off at 14th Street or possibly miss out on something special.
This may or may not have been the R-142 you mentioned. The car numbers were all numbered in the 7200s, ironically the same numbering series belonging to the R-22s that worked the '1' for many years. It came into 14th Street blowing its horn and stopped for about twenty seconds. There were loads of people in orange TA vests milling around in the cars and scaffolding set up here and there. The seats were covered in plain brown paper, and a strong paint odor was present. The front sign was an electronic red number 6; the back sign flashed from red zero on up.
For those twenty seconds, people on the platform had the stock impatient "When are they gonna open the doors?" look, followed when the train pulled out without opening its doors, the equally common "Why didn't they open the doors?" look. Only a few people looked surprised to see something other than an R-62A.
A few minutes before all this transpired, an empty '5' train of Redbirds blew through Chambers Street uptown local track without stopping. At the same time, an R-62A signed up as '5' stopped on the downtown express track, very much in service. Obviously, something must have been wrong on the East Side.
Yeah, that's exactly what I saw. That's why I asked if there was a connection between The 7th Avenue IRT and the Lexington Av IRT. What you saw were the R-142's.
Clark Palicka
they can connect through South Ferry
Well its almost time for the Oscars and I thought why shouldn't SubTalk not share in the celebration. So therefore I propose we hold the First Annual SubTalk awards. I will serve as the non-bias director of the SubTalk awards solely because I have no real opinion about the NYC Subway and as a New Jersey resident I hate all you New Yorkers equally, ha, ha, ha. In all seriousness I am really serious about this and I want it to work. It will be in Nomination/Category format and starting today I open the floor to nominations for the following categories.
Best Thread
Best Subtalker in a leading role
Best Subtalker in a supporting role
Best Subtalker in a technical or advisory role
Best Website Host
Funniest Subtalker
Best Flamer
Best Impersonation of a Subtalker
Worst Transit Official
Worst Elected Official (transit wise)
Subway Criminal of the Year
Best Subway Supporter
Best Subtalker in the field
Technical Awards
Best Transit System
Best Forigen Transit System
Best Subway Car (any system)
Best Subway Car (NYC)
Best Station (NYC)
Best Line (NYC)
Best Station (any system)
Best Line (any system)
Best Commuter Railroad
Best Interlocking Tower
Best Yard
Best New Transit Project (completed)
Ok here are the categories I could think of. If any of you have other good ones, please send them in.
I know that many of you are thinking "Best Thread? I don't remember any treads past last week." or "Best Interlocking Tower? What do I know about that?" Well all of you don't have to noninate something for every category. If you have any memory of a good thread or a really good post, anything that stuck in your mind, please post it as a nomination or e-mail it to me. If you reply to this post please keep your nominations seperated and include a short rationale for your nomination, it will help in the final pick. Also please don't argue over other people's nominations, now is not the time. I'll wiegh the facts, cut it down to about 5 nominations per category then I will make a form and e-mail it/post it for public voting. Come on everybody, we can make this work!
"Best use of animated GIF images in SubTalk postings."
:-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
I'll second that....
Ok, Its in. (Although I think you're going to loose to BMT Line's Christmas Special Ani-Gif). Also Here's one I forgot.
WORST SUBWAY CAR
I just dropped my nomination for the abomination (R-33 single).
The R-33 single will be the first thing to be vaporized following the pigvolution. All records will be changed to show that the 7 always ran 10 car trains.
FARE:
Humans: $25.00 by permit only
Pigs: Free, no permit required
I've been feeling bad that Pigs was not contacted by the Daily News Reporter.
Since Pigs correctly predicted that he will lose to me in the Funniest Poster category, as well as the
Mr/Ms Congeniality category, as well as We Wish He/She Would Go Away category, I would like to propose a special category for which he has a hoof up on the competition-- Best Barnyard Animal Poster.
And as a sign of interspecieal good will, I suggest that we vote him unanimally. ( I suggest this just in case this pig and his cohorts actually do take over )
Well Pigs is in the running with Humans for most creative handle. Ironic, isn't it.
I second the R-33 as worst car....
(Although I think you're going to loose to BMT Line's Christmas Special Ani-Gif)
Ahh, but you missed the special New Years graphic that I made just for SubTalk... Sadly, it's not animated, but I'm still quite proud of it nonetheless. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
Well I missed the month of Jan. but it has been duely nominated.
How about funniest post? I cast my vote for Wayne's (Mr. Slant R-40) recollection of the guy who tossed his cookies on that sweltering F train while deep below the East River in September of 1973. Wayne painted a vivid picture of a pitching, swaying train with people getting tossed into each other, not to mention fainting from the heat.
I still think it's a masterpiece.
1. Most creative handle
2. Most changed handle
3. Best contributed article
4. Best contributed photos
5. Most prolific poster
6. Most prolific debator
7. Worst speller
8. Life time award ... Subtalker since day one & still active
Mr t__:^)
2. Most changed handle
THAT'S ME!!
How many handles have you had????????
=|:-)
=|:-(
A post it note
A post it note in favor of the R-142
A/B/C/D - Central Pig West
ALMOND JOYS GOT NUTS, MOUNDS DON'T
Defy Reason on SubTalk: Countdown to DOOM begins
Defy Reason on SubTalk -10 (and -9, etc.)
Defy Reason on SubTalk is no longer
From the banks of the river stownz
Humans of Amsterdam
Humans of Columbus
Humans of Hudson
Humans of East
Humans of Further East
Humans of Royal Island
Humans III: The Hague
Humans II: The Prague
Humans: The Budapest
Humans: The Bombay Pest
Humans: The Bombay Best
Humans: The Deli Best
I won't be a post-it note for long!
I'm not a post-it note anymore!
I've been a bad post-it note
LIAR to New York-Pig Station
PATH Train Pig
Paper is Ephemeral
NOTORIOUS P.I.G.
Beyond Reason
Defy Reason
Eugenius D. Train
Eugenius D. Train of Royal Island
Eugenius V. Train
Eugenius D. Train - MVM Express
Eugenius V. Train - MVM Express
Jack Arthur
Jack Arthur aka School Bus Hater
This has be some kind of SubTalk record.
Pray tell, why??
Most informative poster: tossup between Larry Redbird R-33 and Steve.
How about best story about how one became a railfan.
Or funniest application of transit knowledge outside of subtalk.
Or how about the transit heroes and transit goats of the year (people, things, or events).
Funniest Subtalker -
I nominate myself. I know heypaul will win, unless the pigs take control of the contest, in which case all of the positive awards will be captured by pigs and all of the negative ones will go to humans. The pigs can use the awards ceremony as a good propiganda outlet to show swine superiority.
Here are some of my nominations:
Best Thread: LarryRedbirdR33's articles
Best Subtalker in a leading role: LarryRedbirdR33
Best Subtalker in a supporting role: Steve, aka Train Dude
Best Subtalker in a technical or advisory role:
(a) Steve, aka Train Dude
(b) Erik, aka the Transportation Official Formerly Known as Mr. R-46
Best Website Host: Of course, Dave
Funniest Subtalker: Steve, aka Train Dude
Chaohwa
Oops, Erik should be the Transportation Professional Formerly Known as Mr. R-46.
Chaohwa
I keep coming up with more:
Best storyteller: myself and Wayne (Mr. Slant R-40)
How abt
Best Website Maintained by a Subtalker
which would be won by...
...any of a number of worthy contestants.
Technical Awards
Best Transit System --MTA, hands down...
Best Forigen Transit System --Madrid's Metro
Best Subway Car (any system) --R-10 flying down CPW..
Best Subway Car (NYC) see above...
Best Station (NYC) --Tough one... I'd have to say Times Square since you can get a train to anywhere...
Best Line (NYC) - A, hands down...
Best Station (any system) -See above
Best Line (any system) --See above...
Best Commuter Railroad --Metro North, efficiency , range, and comfort
Best Yard - Coney wins this won...
Best New Transit Project (completed) The already completed station rehabilitations...
How about adding the category "best page on the web site".
--Mark
I think I should get best Subtalker in a leading role. Hahahahaha!!!
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
What about best overseas contributor ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Sounds like a good one .... lets see we have you, Rob, Tim .... that's going to be a tough one.
Mr t__:^)
How about best contributor west of the Hudson?
No, wait, that includes New Jersey. West of the Delaware, then?
How about West of California Coast Line
How about north of the Tappan Zee?
We could rent out a hall - say a few months from now.
Just a thought??
We could rent out a hall - say a few months from now.
Jay Street/Borough Hall, perhaps? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
LOL!!!!! The Sigma train. LOL. Oh that's classic. Now that's creative. Good job. As someone who is going to college and someone who is taking Classical Electrostatics I can really appreciate greek leters. Could you make up a whole set and post it on the web as a resource?
Glad you like it. That's the only Greek one I have, but I have a few Roman numeral banners for the IRT division.
This genre of banners begin life as a sarcastic response to a SubTalk posting a few weeks ago, and I now use them whenever I'm generally being a smart-ass. :-)
All my banners can be found at http://www.nthward.com/images/banners/banners.htm
-- David
Chicago, IL
Cool stuff!!
Why not City Hall?-)
You don't need to rent a hall! We can do it in my barn! I'll get all the cows, chickens and horses out and clean out the straw and put in some air freshener to get that damn manure smell out, and after some decorating, it'll be perfect! Just remember, DO NOT close the door on the way in or you'll hear me squeal this: "Don't close the door! What? Were you raised in a house?"
pigs's suggestion is quite clever---
instead of boro hall as suggested by david cole--- how about renting the abandoned city hall station---
and make it a very formal affair--- hopefully the chandeliers will light--- we could have a catered affair--- we could have hors d'oeuvres--- no pigs in blankets in deference to pigs our representative from the barnyard--- we could play guess the number of the lead car of every train passing through the station--- i would be happy to contribute $1 to the realization of this idea--- of course there might be security concerns at city hall with such an event going on right under the seat of power---
Especially if Pigs is involved ... never mind, he'll be ON the menu, not in charge of it ... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"of course there might be security concerns at city hall with such an event going on right under the seat of power---"
Sounds like someplace I'd like to be.
I suggest we hire a good KOSHER caterer.
If we have a Kosher Dinner, No Pigs can come,
Humans do not satisfy the requirements of kashrut, you do not have cloven hoofs and you do not chew the cud. Therefore, by your logic, you should be excluded from the kosher dinner.
This anti-swinitism must stop. As revenge, when the pigs rule all, anti-humanism will be required of pigty members, and taught in the propiganda.
Is this going to be similar to the First Annual Montgomery Burns Award for Outstanding Achievement in the Field of Excellence?
E-Mail Me Here
Where can I get m-1 thru M-7 spec's?
Are the cars on the staten Is. railroad R44 or R46"s and they make the ta cars look like something they foound from Fresh kills
The cars on SIRT are R-44's...
02/24/2000
Also they are pretty much identical to the NYCTA R-44's (100-399). Except when first delivered, they had FRA grab handles which I believe have been removed when the were GOH'd.
The SIRT R-44's (400-449), also classified as MUE-2's by Staten Island Railway, were the tail end of the NYCTA order.
Bill Newkirk
Bill: I had no idea that SIRT had assigned their own designation to the R-44's. Thanks for that interesting bit of information.
Larry,RedbirdR33
02/24/2000
Larry,
You mentioned that you didn't know SIRT had their own destination. I believe you mean destination signs?
There was nothing to it. (St.George - Great Kills - Tottenville - Special ?) I saw one such sign that was removed after the GOH when the signs (side) weren't needed anymore.
Bill Newkirk
Bill: Did I say destination? I meant designation for the R-44's as MUE-2. As regards destination signs on the SIRT. I did see one car in the yard recently with white letters on a red background. Does SIRT use a different color sign for express trains like the SEPTA Red Arrow Lines? Thanks,
Larry,RedbirdR33
They use red for express and OOS trains, and blue for local trains. But they rarely ever bother to change the signs. Not much point.
-Hank
02/25/2000
Larry,
The designation of MUE-2 was told to me by my friend who is a Supt. on Staten Island Railway. They scoff at the designation of R-44, maybe the link to the NYCTA. The original 1925 Standard Steel cars were called the MUE-1's, Multiple Unit Electric.
Bill Newkirk
Well they are R44 but some mod's for the SIR, they don'thave trip cocks since the signal system does not have trip arms. The cars can go backwards without switching operating ends or use of a yard key and they can run "A" type cars as A-A without a "B" type.
The side destination signs were removed at GOH too.
They can do this on the mainline (subway), but all the subway cars are link barred. The G uses A-A linked cars.
Is there any authoritative map in existence showing which stations do not have crossovers? The Hagstrom subway map has some errors, and it is not always possible to tell from the trains (e.g. Lafayette Av on the (C) line).
Bob Sklar
Bob. The issue is complicated by some crossovers/ crossunders being closed. An example is Fulton and Flushing stations on the G. Both had a crossover via a mezzanine . Both mezzanines are now closed. Flushing's is at the Queens (North)end and is behind a locked gate. Fulton Street's is just North of the middle of the platforms at the exit(now closed)to South Portland Avenue( the stairs being behind a locked gate and marked employees only.) Fulton still has an underpass near the South end due to LIRR traffic and only one booth (on the Smith-9th bound side). Flushing requires exiting to the street and reentering on the other side.All other G stations up to and includsign Court Square have crossovers.
I suggest you read the station-by-station pages for a list of those stations without change of directions without exiting the fare control. As a start, the local stations on the 1 from Rector to 50, plus 72,79,86,137, and stations North of Dyckman to 242( except 242) come to my mind immediately.
Here is a list of stations currently without crossovers as I understand it: Stations with "*" refer to a station with a crossover currently closed. Please offer additions or corrections. Thanks to all.
Manhattan
225 St (9)
215 St (1)
207 St (9)
157 St (1)
145 St (9)
137 St (1)(9)
110 St (1)(9)
86 St (1)(9)
79 St (1)(9)
72 St (1)(2)(3)(9)
50 St (1)(9)
28 St (1)(9)
23 St (1)(9)
18 St (1)(9)
Christopher St (1)(9)
Houston St (1)(9)
Canal St (1)(9)
Franklin St (1)(9)
Rector St (1)(9)
South Ferry (1)(9)
145 St (3)
135 St (2)(3)
125 St (2)(3)
116 St (2)(3)
116 St (6)
110 St (6)
86 St (4)(5)(6)
77 St (6)
33 St (6)
28 St (6)
23 St (6)
Astor Pl * (6)
Bleecker St (6)
Spring St (6)
Dyckman St (A)
135 St (B)(C)
116 St (B)(C)
50 St (C)(E)
Spring St (C)(E) ?
1 Av (L)
3 Av (L)
23 St (F)
49 St (N)(R)
28 St (N)(R)
23 St * (N)(R)
8 St (N)(R)
Prince St (N)(R)
Cortlandt St (N)(R)
Rector St (N)(R)
Bronx
238 St (1)
174 St (2)(5)
Freeman St (2)(5)
Simpson St (2)(5)
Prospect Av (2)(5)
Jackson Av (2)(5)
3 Av (2)(5) (since 1973)
Longwood Av (6)
149 St (6)
143 St (6)
Cypress Av (6)
Brook Av (6)
Brooklyn
Hoyt St (2)(3)
Nevins St (2)(3)(4)(5) - seems to be currently closed
Bergen St (2)(3)
Winthrop St (2)(5)
Church Av (2)(5)
Beverly Rd (2)(5)
Newkirk Av (2)(5)
Union St (M)(N)(R)
Prospect Av (M)(N)(R)
25 St (M)(N)(R)
Flushing Av * (G)
Fulton St * (G)
Bergen St (F)(G)
Lafayette Av (C)
Clinton-Washington Avs (C)
Nostrand Av * (A)(C)
Kingston-Throop Avs (C)
Ralph Av (C) ?
Rockaway Av (C) ?
Halsey St (L)
Jefferson St (L) ?
Morgan Av (L) ?
Montrose Av (L) ?
Grand St (L)
Graham Av (L)
Marcy Av (J)(M)(Z)
Queens
75 Av (E)(F)
Grand Av-Newtown (G)(R)
Elmhurst Av (G)(R)
Northern Blvd (G)(R) ?
46 St (G)(R) ?
36 St (G)(R)
46 St (7)
40 St (7)
33 St (7)
Vernon-Jackson (7)
Staten Island
(not a clue)
Thank you all for your help,
Bob
You can add Briarwood-Van Wyck (E/F) to the list. You used to be able to cross over the mezzanine within the fare control, but the addition of a transit police headquarters put an end to that.
Also, 231st Street (1/9). It seems that elevated stations constructed before a certain point, maybe 1912, did not have mezzanines. These seem restricted to the Broadway and West Farms els. Marcy Avenue also lacks a mezzanine, but every other station on the Broadway Brooklyn el has one.
South Ferry is the southern terminal, and unusual in that there's just one platform and one track running in one direction counterclockwise in order to reverse direction. The only other places I recall such an arrangement is the World Trade Center PATH terminal and the Franklin loop of the Newark subway.
Howard,
Thanks for the info. I mentioned South Ferry because the no-longer-used inner platform has no connection to the outer one. This produced a strange situation in the use of that station.
Back when there was still Lexington Av. service to South Ferry, the (5) and (6) running there weekends and nights respectively switched over to the outer track before stopping, thus enabling a free transfer to the (1). The Bowling Green shuttle, however, pulled into and backed out of the inner platform, with no connection to the (1). Many maps at the time showed two separate South Ferry stations, and some showed one, but no map ever seems to have shown the situation correctly.
Thanks again for your help.
Bob
[South Ferry is the southern terminal, and unusual in that there's just one platform and one track running in one direction
counterclockwise in order to reverse direction. The only other places I recall such an arrangement is the World Trade Center PATH terminal and the Franklin loop of the Newark subway.]
That sort of arrangement used to exist at the City Hall IRT station.
In Philadelphia, all Broad Street local stations with the express passing it in the middle have no crossovers. On the Market Frankford, 5th Street has no crossover, and Chruch street has no crossover, making the eastbound platform exit only.
The 33rd (Rawson) and 46th (Bliss) Street stations on the (7) have crossunders, but are only open when the booths at 34th and 47th Streets are open.
Grand Avenue (G)(R) has a crossover at the 54th Avenue exit.
46th Street and Northern Boulevard (G)(R) do not have crossovers.
There is a crossunder at Nevins St (2)(3)(4)(5). Closed? I don't know about that.
There are also crossunders at Dyckman St (A), and Spring St (A)nights (C)(E).
I think that's about it.
Nevins has a crossunder! Also Cortlandt BMT has a crossunder outside the fare control.Hoyt IRT has a closed crossunder. On the G line your list is correct (Smith-9th to Court Square.)
Fulton on the G also has the OPEN crossunder.
75th Ave. has a closed crossover at the eastern end of the mezzanine.
I m not sure, Ave H on the Brighton Line?
nope - you can cross from one side to the other there.
subfan
One of my MC collector friends doesn't have access to as many liquadated MCs as I do, so I'm happy to give him several for a MetroCard holder, which he can get easily because he works near one of the three stores (a run on sentence if there ever was one).
Anyhow, he just gave me one with Marilyn Monroe ... now what did she ever have to do with subways ? She stood over the Lex. Ave grate !
Apparently it part of a new series "Subway Celebrities". This is my second, the first being of Ralph getting his lunch box from Alice as he's about to drive away in bus #2969.
Mr t__:^)
>>>She stood over the Lex. Ave grate ! <<<
From what I read, it wasn't the same with her and Joe after that...
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, it wasn't. Joe D. didn't like it at all. Supposedly, they were going to remarry just before she died.
They'll use any excuse to create an association with a celebrity like M. Monroe. Standing over a subway grate is plenty. BTW, try to get a close look at MM's feet. You will find very few pictures show them, but there are one or two. The reason they are usually hidden: she had six toes on each foot!
Photo credit: TMNY Collection, catalog #4964
I'll let the peanut gallery guess the story behind this photo. I'll post details later....
i don't know the story behind this picture--- but i
can suggest a caption for it---
marilyn monroe standing abreast of two pcc cars
I dont think thats Marilyn Monroe. More realistically its some motorman's bleach blonde girlfriend.
Or more likely a BMT publicity shot with a hired local gal to publicize the Church Avenue Line or the PCC cars in general.
Doug aka BMTman
Don't know, but the cars are in BOT colors, so it's not BMT.
Yes, but the Brooklyn & Queens Transit trolley lines were still BMT, even if they went under a different name at the time. I'm pritty sure no other company in NYC bought PCCs (Newark doesn't count as NYC).
Mr t__:^)
I agree that she was probably a local hired gal, but not for a publicity shot. I would think that the Publicity Department would have used cars that were not so banged up, and they would have used a more photogenic terminal, other that Hegeman Av.
02/26/2000
Yes, those are the first #1001 and last #1099 production PCC's. I noticed #1099 has headlight wings and #1001 doesn't. Also those PCC's looked like they played bumper cars.
Bill Newkirk
The picture was taken Sunday, Nov. 27, 1955. The model is Jence (sp?) Lowry posing in front of the PCCs at the Bristol Street terminal of the 35 Church Avenue line. Everett A. White put together this 'event' on the day after the closing of the 68 Coney Island Avenue line, leaving just two lines in existence, 35 Church and 50 McDonald Avenue. Here is another photo taken that day:
Photo credit: TMNY Collection, catalog #4660
Nice pictures- got anymore?
There is another, but it is almost identical to the last one.
(pant pant pant)
Wasn't 1001 the first PCC (after prototype 1000) and 1099 the last?
--Mark
By George I think he's got it!!! I was thinking along the same lines.
Peace,
Andee
My understanding is #1000 (built by Clark Equipment Co.) was delivered in 1937 after #1001-1099 (built by St. Louis Car Co.) were delivered between 1936 and '37. #1000 can still be considered a prototype since it is the first PCC with standee windows and the only one with an aluminum body.
Does anyone here know of an BB like this about Avation?
How would one go about getting an Iron Maiden installed?
One station comes to mind, Aquaduct/ No. Conduit Ave. , the north end
of the North bound platform needs a stair and ramp for challanged
riders. It would provide quicker access to the station and a safer
pickup point riders being met at the station. I've seen some scary
stuff as drivers pull off the sidewalks to cut across three lanes of
traffic during the evening rush hour.
There must be some other locations where safety issues would apply.
...and Lowery Street and Rawson Street? The signs at the station platforms and entrances, and subway maps and 7 train schedules no longer refer to the original(?) names of these stations, but only to 46th, 40th, and 33rd Streets, respectively. The only place where you will find the older names is on the MVM receipts!
also missing is Purtain Ave (75Ave) on F/E
Isn't it still in the tiles?
There are no tiles that say "Puritan Ave" at the 75th Avenue station. All it says is "75TH AVE."
the enterances used to say it...
The problem with Bliss Street, is that it was the epitomy of ignorance.
Also, the station signs now read "33 Street", "40 Street", and "46 Street". I liked the old names -- specifically because they were irrelevant and added a bit of mystery and history. I did notice that 52nd is "52nd - Lincoln". I guess that a street named Lincoln still exists in the area??
Just noticed that the Yahoo! Map still lists 46 Street north of Queens Blvd as Bliss St. (sniff) It's good to see that someone still cares.
Chuck
MVM?
Metrocard Vending Machine
[...and Lowery Street and Rawson Street? The signs at the station platforms and entrances, and subway maps and 7 train schedules no longer refer to the original(?) names of these stations, but only to 46th, 40th, and 33rd Streets, respectively.]
Queens streets had names until they were changed to numbers in the 1930's. As the 7 line stations predated the numbering system, they had been known by the now-deleted names. Presumably to avoid confusion, the stations were given dual names (street name + street number), a system that lasted for many years.
And still does outside of the Queens Boulevard Viaduct. The stops on the N Line north of Queensboro Plaza still have two names (39 Av-Beebe Av, 36 Av-Washington Av, 30 Av-Grand Av, Astoria Blvd-Hoyt Av. Broadway and Ditmars I believe are the original names for these stations.) Also, some stations east of 46 Street-Bliss St have the two names:
52-Lincoln Av
61-Woodside
69-Fisk Av
74-Broadway
90-Elmhurst Av
82-Jackson Hts: Would cause a lot of confusion if its original name, "25th St" was kept. "Is this 82nd Street or 25th Street?"
103-Corona Plaza: Formerly Alburtis Avenue. Why didn't that stay?
111, Willets Pt Blvd, Main St-Flushing: More or less original names. Strangely, the 1924 BMT map shows the 111 St as 111 St, while the stations west of it have the original names! (Of course, it's a BMT map, so the IRT stations south of Queensboro Plaza don't appear.)
In the case of Hoyt Avenue, it still exists. It's the service roads for the Grand Central between the bridge, and where Astoria Boulevard picks up the task.
Ditmars Boulevard was once called Ditmars Avenue, the change occured at the same time as the numberization, and 31st Street was Second Avenue (Astoria numbering only).
Broadway still exists, Woodside is a neighborhood, and Willets Point and Willets Point Boulevard (although smaller, I believe) are still around.
As for 111, I assume it was built after the numbering system was in place. The IND used old names only for the sa
In the case of Hoyt Avenue, it still exists. It's the service roads for the Grand Central between the bridge, and where Astoria Boulevard picks up the task.
Ditmars Boulevard was once called Ditmars Avenue, the change occured at the same time as the numberization, and 31st Street was Second Avenue (Astoria numbering only).
Broadway still exists, Woodside is a neighborhood, and Willets Point and Willets Point Boulevard (although smaller, I believe) are still around.
As for 111, I assume it was built after the numbering system was in place. The IND used old names only for the fact that some people still knew them by the old names.
103-Corona Plaza: Formerly Alburtis Avenue. Why didn't that stay?
Check your source again. Doesn't it read 104th St?
It's 103rd Street. This isn't some obscure little fact.
Take a good look at the IRT, BMT, BOT and NYTel maps from the 1930's through 1951 on this site. You will find that this station was called: 104th St - Corona Plaza - Alburtis Ave.
There are a few little blue plaques on the platform lights still left there - one hasn't been painted over yet and it reads 104".
Wayne
"Queens streets had names until they were changed to numbers in the 1930's."
Wasn't it 1915 when today's Queens street grid came in?
Ferdinand Cesarano
What about Hudson Street, Boyd Avenue, Oxford Avenue & Greenwood Avenue On The BRT Fulton El In Queens (Now IND 8th Ave/Fulton Subway)& Eldert(s) Lane, Forest Parkway on BRT Broadway/Jamaica El.
Elderts Lane and I BELIEVE (not sure) Forest Parkway are still around.
And it's BMT. The BRT just hasn't been around for too long.
I personally still perfer to list the lines by their orignal names:
IRT
BRT
Dual Contracts (BRT/IRT)
IND
Then the stations you mentioned should fall under Dual Contracts.
You're STILL wrong!
I haven't forgotten. I was just concentrating on the stations on the stations served by the 7 and N trains because they're closer to where I am.
The station platform signs in the Rockaways also have the old names on them (The last time I was there)
Mott Av-Far Rockaway
B 25-Wavecrest
B 36-Edgemere
B 44-Frank Av
B 60-Straiton Av
B 67-Gaston
B 90-Holland
B 98-Playland
B105-Seaside
B116-Rockaway Park
Hello folks,
Since the BusTalk password scheme seems to be a success I'm turning it on for SubTalk as of now. Sorry for the lack of notice. If you don't already have a password, Obtain One Here. If you already have one that you've been using for BusTalk, you now use the same one here.
-Dave
TEST
Another test
Well I guess the party's over. So much for the wild and crazy party that was SubTalk.
Well, considering that many people who posted to this board couldn't behave themselves, and Dave is forced to play policeman because of it, I'm all for it. Anything that helps him run and maintain his site, as he sees fit, is fine by me. It's too bad that he felt he had to resort to this to weed out the bad content.
--Mark
I don't remember needing a policeman.
Dave's been quietly playing policeman for a long time. In spite of that the board has at times gotten out of hand - not nearly as far out as BusTalk, from what I've heard (I've never been over there) - but far enough out that some better control was needed. The false posts by someone using other established posters' identities was, I suspect, the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. I regret that it became necessary for Dave to do this but I support his action in so doing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
We can also do without people posting under several different names.
TEST
Test
Test who???
TEST
QUIZ
I strongly suspect it's working properly, since there are 6 TEST posts after Dave's notice. I'm a little bit sorry Dave had to do it, but that seems to be they way all Web BBS's are heading - mostly for the same reason - to reduce the (can't seem to eliminate totally) weirdos that seem to infest boards.
test of password.
Testing
test
02/25/2000
HELLO TEST.....TESTING 1 - 2 - 3 - 4.....HOW NOW BROWN COW..THIS IS A TEST.
Hey! This thing really works.
Bill Newkirk
Yesterday when I saw a so-called doctor wrote a bunch of nasty words, I see this day coming.
Chaohwa
Yesterday when I saw a so-called doctor wrote a bunch of nasty words, I see this day coming.
I saw the day coming, too.
CH.
Well, there goes my annonymity! I guess I'll have to rely on Dave's ethical character to protect my namelessness.
subfan
And Dave will. He promised that all will be known to him and him alone - nobody else.
Hey, since we've got this password thing, how hard would it be you to give us the ability to cancel our own posts, like if we screw up HTML, or saw something stupid and realize it moments after we hit 'post'?
-Hank
That's what the Preview button is for ... I always use it when I'm imbedding html. Any other typos I can live with since they can't be serious enough to confuse anyone.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
i just wanted to relay what salaam told me of his
plans to film the canarsie line and meet
subtalkers-- the last message i received on our
intergalatic cats whisker decoder ring points to
saturday march 4 at the 8th ave end of the canarsie
line-- no meeting hour has been decided--
to help you assess your interest in such a get
together, i have made up some questions for you to
ponder:
1. do you believe there should be a constitutional
amendment guaranteeing the right to a railfan window
for all interested customers?
2. do you believe that you can win over the minds
of people who disagree with you by repeating your
point of view 30 or 40 times?
3. do you believe that small case letters are for
small minded people?
4. do you have recurring dreams involving
chainsaws? and do you wake up after such dreams
drenched in blood?
5. do you have a sense of humor? or do you keep
tight control over your feelings in fear that people
might think you are enjoying yourself?
6. have you recently completed a course in partial
differential equations, integral calculus, or
electricity and magnetism so as to keep up with the
technical end of this hobby?
7. would you be interested in purchasing a 6 hour
video watching people go through the turnstiles at
times square?
8. would you be interested in being in the cast of
a 6 hour video of railfans calmly discussing
hillary, rudy, grafitti, presidential politics,
poverty, teenagers, favorite subway cars, favorite
frankfurter stands, favorite animals, religion,
race, gender identification, country of origin,
national language, any other noncontroversial topic
that might come to mind?
9. do you believe that the r-142's will last more
than 5 years?
10. have you been recently considering a new hobby
since you fear guilt by association with imbeciles
like heypaul?
I believe I will pass up this meeting, Thank you
1. do you believe there should be a constitutional
amendment guaranteeing the right to a railfan window
for all interested customers?
No, Its Ridiculous..Though a railfan window if it exists on a Train you're riding is desirable
2. do you believe that you can win over the minds
of people who disagree with you by repeating your
point of view 30 or 40 times?
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
3. do you believe that small case letters are for
small minded people?
People who post in Lower and Uppercase like THiS are Lunatics...
people who wannabe Colored like those AzYn PRyDe Freaks.
4. do you have recurring dreams involving
chainsaws? and do you wake up after such dreams
drenched in blood?
negative
5. do you have a sense of humor? or do you keep
tight control over your feelings in fear that people
might think you are enjoying yourself?
So So
6. have you recently completed a course in partial
differential equations, integral calculus, or
electricity and magnetism so as to keep up with the
technical end of this hobby?
yes
7. would you be interested in purchasing a 6 hour
video watching people go through the turnstiles at
times square?
No, F'en Way!
8. would you be interested in being in the cast of
a 6 hour video of railfans calmly discussing
hillary, rudy, grafitti, presidential politics,
poverty, teenagers, favorite subway cars, favorite
frankfurter stands, favorite animals, religion,
race, gender identification, country of origin,
national language, any other noncontroversial topic
that might come to mind?
Same as Above, I have better uses of my time...
9. do you believe that the r-142's will last more
than 5 years?
It will last at least 45-50m years with care...Though its aesthetics is something to be desired.
10. have you been recently considering a new hobby
since you fear guilt by association with imbeciles
like heypaul?
No, we're all crazy.
Do you have the matching transmitter that goes with that cat's whisker decoder ring. You know, OL' SPARKY-- morse code only, capable of spewing MANY KILOWATTS of STATIC from DC to LIGHT, sounds like a heypaul kinda contraption
73 DE N2MMM ;^>
Q74B708404C
>>>8. would you be interested in being in the cast of
a 6 hour video of railfans calmly discussing
hillary, rudy, grafitti, presidential politics,
poverty, teenagers, favorite subway cars, favorite
frankfurter stands, favorite animals, religion,
race, gender identification, country of origin,
national language, any other noncontroversial topic
that might come to mind? <<<<
Yes...oh yes! What a capstone to my currently unemployed condition that would be!
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>5. do you have a sense of humor? or do you keep
tight control over your feelings in fear that people
might think you are enjoying yourself?<<
I do, but I like to walk around with my butt cheeks tightened for the thrill of it.
>>6. have you recently completed a course in partial
differential equations, integral calculus, or
electricity and magnetism so as to keep up with the
technical end of this hobby?<<
Don't remind me, I still twich when I hear that, and I still need to take Calc III and Linear Algebra.
1. It doesn't take a constitutional amendment, just a SawzAll.
2. Yes, as long as I have my sawed-off shotgun loaded with buckshot.
3. No, just for those too cheap to buy a keyboard that works.
4. Yes. Unfortunately, it's usually MY blood.
5. Me? Enjoy myself? C'mon, I'm a project manager!
6. Does Principles of Engineering Stress Analysis count?
7. Well, it might help my insomnia... better counting people than sheep.
8. I spend at least that many hours a week reading this board, why not?
9. Yes.
10. Actually, I was getting concerned that heypaul was fearing guilt by association with ME.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[1. do you believe there should be a constitutional
amendment guaranteeing the right to a railfan window
for all interested customers?]
1. Yes, as a matter of fact I'd push to make it a capital offense for Scratchiti on railfan windows.
[2. do you believe that you can win over the minds
of people who disagree with you by repeating your
point of view 30 or 40 times?]
2. No, at least not without some kind of death threats.
3. do you believe that small case letters are for
small minded people?
3. MOST DEFINITELY!
[4. do you have recurring dreams involving
chainsaws? and do you wake up after such dreams
drenched in blood?]
4. No sweat -- I trade E-mail with Charles Manson.
[5. do you have a sense of humor? or do you keep
tight control over your feelings in fear that people
might think you are enjoying yourself?]
5. I always grit my teeth just for the hell of it.
[6. have you recently completed a course in partial
differential equations, integral calculus, or
electricity and magnetism so as to keep up with the
technical end of this hobby?]
6. I just got off the phone with Stephen Hawkings. I was helping him with some Quantum Physics equations that could answer some of the questions to the origins of the universe. So, I guess that's a "yes"?
[7. would you be interested in purchasing a 6 hour
video watching people go through the turnstiles at
times square?]
7. Only if 5 and 3/4 hours is of Jennifer Lopez going through the turnstile at Times Square wearing her "Grammy Awards" dress (or lack thereof).
[8. would you be interested in being in the cast of
a 6 hour video of railfans calmly discussing
hillary, rudy, grafitti, presidential politics,
poverty, teenagers, favorite subway cars, favorite
frankfurter stands, favorite animals, religion,
race, gender identification, country of origin,
national language, any other noncontroversial topic
that might come to mind?]
8. You forgot to mention the discussion of.....Niagra Falls....slowly I turn....
[9. do you believe that the r-142's will last more
than 5 years?]
9. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
[10. have you been recently considering a new hobby
since you fear guilt by association with imbeciles
like heypaul?]
10. Some of the greatest Americans were imbeciles. I'm in good company here.
Doug aka BMTman
There's a rock tune which has actual chainsaw sounds. Don't remember the title offhand.
Typing in all lower case is certainly better than all caps.
I wouldn't mind being in a video discussion of favorite car types.
I have an electronics degree, although I've gotten about as rusty as some our beloved Redbirds. My father can do just about any math you put in front of him.
We'll see about the R-142s.
steve--- you said your mathematics has gotten rusty--- if there is sufficient demand, i am thinking of providing a tutorial here on subtalk of partial differential equations, integral calculus, and chaos theory--- it would require no background in math--- however it would be presented in greek so that no one would realize that i am a fraud
i have no further information about salaamallah day this saturday--- i am awaiting word--- keep your eyes posted on this board or towards the eastern sky around 8 pm each evening--- in the event of late breaking news i will project the information onto the night sky with my 1 megawatt zeiss planetarium projector that i recently purchased at a garage sale for $11
What if someone wanted to honestly change his handle? Let's say I wanted my name to be "Chris R, aka Mr. R16"? Is the handle the person registers with first his in perpetuity?
Mail me privately or use the feedback form to arrange this sort of thing.
Gotcha. Thanks
My son caught a Delta flight back from the mid-west and thumbing through their monthly magizine SKY noticed an article about trolleys. The six page article, by Taras Grescoe, features two cities: New Orleans & San Francisco (1891 eight lines plying 112 miles of track). The article claims that there are 26 new & old trolley systems in the US.
Of interest to our favorite Traffic & Weather man is a side bar on Seashore at Kennebunkport. Todd, do they have their facts right: 320 acres, 250 cars, 75 operational ?
They also list several of our favorite trolley museums, including Baltimore; Warehouse Point & Kingston, but NOT shoreline at Branford.
It sure is a strange place to find an article about trolleys.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, Mr. T., those numbers are about right! (Maybe 75 of our cars will move under their own power, but our "regular" operating fleet is closer to about 20 cars.) Thanks for passing along the info about the article. Too bad I fly USAirways to NYC -- I'll have to sneak over to Delta to get a copy of the mag!
This is an excellent time for me to remind anyone who would like to join the Seashore Trolley Museum Operating Department, that initial training for new people this year is on Saturday, April 29. For more information, send an email directly to the Museum at: carshop@gwi.net
Transit and Weather Together returns this weekend.
"This is an excellent time for me to remind anyone who would like to join the Seashore Trolley Museum Operating Department"
To all you fence sitters, now is the time to make those first steps toward pulling the handle on your favorite cars ! These type of classes occur in the Spring at many of the local museums ... Shoreline at Branford does it in March. I know the Seashore and Shoreline both have "Members Day", so even if you can't make it there on a regular basis, join now, start receiving their newsletter and come up when you can, as a customer. Members Day you down dogs, burgers & soda and get to ride a lot of the operating cars.
Mr t__:^)
I just followed Todd's link to the Seashore Museum. On its home page, it says "the southern Maine coast -- closer than you think."
Hardly. We are contemplating a little camping at Arcadia this summer, and it seems to be a hell of a ride. Which makes me think:
All things being political, and the Senate providing two votes per state, is there any interest in extending ACELA (assuming it is a hit) to Portland Maine via Portsmith N.H? Not many people, true, but it's a short distance from Boston and you get two more states in. Extend it to Virginia and that puts 11 states on the Northeast corridor line. With everyone hating New York, we can use all the help we can get.
That's a great idea, but there is no North-South rail connection between North and South stations in Boston. Any train running "through" would have to reverse out of South Station all the way to Beacon Park yard in Allston, reverse again, and then cross the river go through Cambridge at 10mph, (intermediate stop at M.I.T. at Mass. Ave?) and then possibly reverse a third time on the approach tracks to North Station.
There were discussions of adding a north south rail link as part of the central artery project, but they never got far as afar as I could tell.....
Dave
Hey Dave, I like that idea of a stop at MIT on Mass. Ave.! It's just a few blocks from my office :0)
The good news is that AMTRAK service is slated to begin later this year from Boston North Station to Portland, ME. The track is currently being upgraded. But you are absolutely right -- the North-South Rail Link is just an idea, and is unfunded. The Big Dig does include space for the tunnel (in other words, when relocating utilities for the underground expressway, the utilities were not put in the way). As I think I said in a related thread a few months ago, it will be a "race" to see which gets done first -- the full 2nd ave. Subway or the North-South Rail Link.
On related notes, it will be interesting to see how the service is operated out of North Station. Currently two out of the 10 tracks are out-of-service (#1 and #10) for Big Dig related construction; approach ramps to/from Storrow Drive go right under the platforms. These tracks may not be back in service for two years. In addition, until the "Super Station" serving the Green & Orange Lines is open, the waiting room is cramped beyond belief -- made worse when there is an event at the co-located Fleet Center. All that negativism aside, it will be fun to watch AMTRAK trains make the "cross-country journey" to/from North Station via the Cambridge connection Dave mentioned. Most MBTA moves (to get trains to/from the north side) occur during the evening and overnight.
I will definitely miss the Green line el going around the late Boston Garden.
When I visited Boston a year and a half ago, Boston Garden was already torn down. The remains of Boston Garden reminded me of the glory days of the Celtics.
Now the Green line el will be history, too.
Chaohwa
I used to ride the Green Line el every day. When and Why is it being demolished?
dave
When I was at Baltimore Penn Station today, I read an NARP newsletter on the bulletin.
It says after the Super Station opens, the section of the Green line el to Lechmore will be closed to 6 to 9 months to construct a tunnel.
Chaohwa
Dave,
The Green Line is being relocated from the el to subway from Haymarket to just (system) east of North Station. The new "Super Station" will be under North Station, and will allow cross-platform transfers with the Orange Line. After crossing under North Station, the Green Line will emerge from the subway and join the existing el over the Charles River to the Science Park station, and on to the Lechmere terminal.
>>>The new "Super Station" will be under North Station, and will allow
cross-platform transfers with the Orange Line. <<<
Would this be the first intra-line cross platform transfer in Boston history, discounting the Mattapan trolley-Red Line?
www.forgotten-ny.com
MMmmmmm.... I don't think so. As I recall, the elevated and
streetcar lines had cross-platform transfers at Park Street (and
Boylston too?). I have to go home and review my copy of "The
Tremont Street Subway" (Clarke, et al). OOPS, I'm not going home
today, I'm going to NYC! Gerry O., if you're lurking, this
is a perfect question for you!
[As I recall, the elevated and streetcar lines had cross-platform transfers at Park Street (and Boylston too?).]
My memory from the 60s was that Park Street and a few others you could "cross-platform" to other trolley lines, but the subway was downstairs at Park Street. North Station is a maybe ... I didn't regularly take the trolley to their, so don't remember ... don't think I was 20 yet at that time.
Mr t__:^)
(Made it to NYC! Trains are nice, but thank goodness for the USAirways Shuttle :-)
Thurston, you are right about the subway being downstairs at Park Street; it's the Red Line. But earlier in the century, there was also an "el" which ran through Park Street on the UPPER level, outer tracks. As I said, I have the info in a book at home, which is now 200 miles from here.
Transit & Weather Together begins at 4:00pm.
A branch of the Atlantic Ave El was rerouted through the Tremont St Tunnel, while the Washington St Tunnel was being constructed. I believe this was between 1900 and 1908 - but these dates should be checked. The El ran 3rd rail and I believe temporary wooden platforms were installed at Boyleston, Park, Scollay, Adams and Haymarket. Technically this may not have qualified as a cross-platform because wooden platforms were a couple of steps above the trolley level platform.
There used to be several cross-platform changes between high-level rapid transit lines and the trolley system. Ashmont is the only one that survives. However, Everett, Sullivan and Maverick come to mind as stations that had cross-platform changes between rapid transit and the surface trolley lines.
Sorry if this is a rehash. But why are they doing this reroute?
To improve transfers between the commuter rail terminal at North Station.
After reading about the war of attrition between Guilford and Amtrak over the Boston-Portland service (top speed of trains, weight of track, depth of ballast) I would say that you'll see not only a full 2nd Ave. subway (with 4 tracks) plus the Boston North-South Rail Link, but
You’ll see one-seat service to JFK from Penn Station and GCT via the rebuilt LIRR Glendale cutoff and...
One-seat LGA service over the Port Washington branch (don't forget to check out the Mets' new stadium on your way to the shuttle!)
plus the opportunity to discuss the 'farewell to the R-142s' fan trip...
before Guilford will enter serious discussions with Amtrak about electrifying the trackage between Portland & Boston. I think the Russians had an easier time with Chechnya then Amtrak did with Guilford management. I can just see Guilford telling the STB they’ll only agree to electrify Portland to Boston if Guilford picks up the rest of the corridor along with it.
I got my copy of the book: "Subway Cars of the BMT." It is a great book for railfans, and can be purchased on a part of this website. It is worth the $40.00 (including tax). The B Standards, Multi-Sectionals, Green Hornets, and my beloved Triplex are all given great sway in the book. In fact, Brighton Beach Bob might be pleased to learn that the Brighton Express gets an even bigger play than my Sea Beach, though I don;t know why. I would recommend this book to all railfans. I even brought it to my classroom today.
That book has been around for a couple of years (I even had mine signed by the author). You are just discovering it?
You are 100% correct, it is a good book.
02/25/2000
Those rare photos of the BMT Standard interior lighting mockups and the original D-types really floored me!!
Bill Newkirk
How do I order this book?
Someone said "you can order it thru this site" which isn't exactly true; the Subway Bibliography has links to Amazon.Com where possible so that's one way you can order it.
-Dave
Chris,
Do you ever go to train or railroadiana shows? Almost any book dealer has this book for sale. It is a very popular book, with some really great pictures. Most dealers will sell it at a 10-20 % discount. It is a softcover book, but that helps keep the price down.
02/25/2000
Also check the (NY) Transit Museum gift shop too.
Bill Newkirk
I ordered mine via amazon.com. Anyone know how long they take to deliver items after they recieve the check?
They wait and make sure the check clears -- anywhere from 5 to 10 business days (even though the checks clear at lightning speed nowadays if they're good).
Checks? I didn't even know they take checks!
They will, but it's a pain. If you're too young to get a regular Visa card though you can probably still get a Visa check card which won't involve the delay time but will still access your checking account.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well I can't get a credit card for reasons I don't need to get into. Let's just say that I overindulged with my first credit card in my youth.
I've never been in quite that situation, but I came close when I was much younger, and the scare I got has kept me from using credit to any significant extent since that time. Now, as I realize that I'm closer to retirement than to college, I don't have any debts besides my mortgage, and I am very glad.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ask your bank if they have a Visa or MasterCard/ check ATM card,which deduct money right from a checking or savings account, or there are plenty of Secured Visa/or Master Cards, The interest rate is higher, etc. But you are better off with the Check/ATM Card, no interest or fees. Also if the fiasco with your old CC is over 8 years old, it SHOULD be off your record
Mine never got quite that bad - it was just the thought of how close I came to getting a bad record that scared me. I have plenty of credit now and I get several offers every week in the mailbox, I just don't choose to use it (or at least I don't carry a balance - I have several department store cards just so I can take advantage of card-only discounts, and of course I have Visa for Amtrak and Delta tickets plus certain purchases over the phone and web). Basically, if the money's not in the bank, I don't buy it - and that goes for everything except the house. When I bought the '96 Windstar (as a leftover in early '97) the salesman and his boss were absolutely shocked that I was actually going to pay for it. They had to contact both DMV and the manufacturer and find out if it was permissible to give me the manufacturer's certificate of origin (since I bought it in New Jersey but was titling it in North Carolina)! Same thing when we bought the '94 Mustang (also an out-of-state purchase) - the dealer didn't know how to handle the title paperwork. That one was a slightly used car, though, so it had the first owner's title with the transfer section on it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's about the only Greller book that the Transit Museum carries anymore.
The Museum doesn't even have the very good 'New York City Subway Cars' by Greller or the similar one by Gene Sansone of Car Equipment (the huge $65 book with b/w pictures).
And their purchasing department has yet to order Cudahy's 'Malbone Street Wreck.'
Doug aka BMTman
Chris,
Try Barnes & Noble
Ron s Books who adverstises in Trains Mag may have them too
There was a copy on eBay within the past couple of days but someone had already bid it up beyond its list price (the seller had falsely listed it as being "rare, out of print").
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
At least there are several photos of Triplexes plying the Sea Beach, including one of the two units which smashed into each other near Stillwell Ave in 1955. That collision must have registered around, oh, 6 or 6.5 on the Richter Scale. Or how about that picture of BMT standard 2778, trying to be both a local and an express at the same time? The station seems to have sustained more damage than the car itself.
An excellent book, most definitely.
On Friday, March 24, 2000 there are 2 separate Transit related events scheduled:
1) 100th Anniversary of the groundbreaking for the NYC Subway. There will be a special event at the Transit Museum Store at Grand Central at 11 AM to commemorate this.
2) The Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Transit (HBLRT) system is scheduled to commence operations today. This is according to the "Commuter News" publication. The line will run from Exchange Place in Jersey City (near PATH) to 34th St in Bayonne or to Westside Avenue in Jersey City. There was no mention of where the ceremony will take place, or at what time or if the line will be operating in passenger service after the ceremony. There was also no mention as to the fare structure.
If anyone has more definite info on item #2 let everyone know.
March 24 should be an interesting day if one tries to take in both events.
Then the next day is Greek Independence Day!!!
Zito I Ellas!!!
Zito I Romiosini!!!
Then On Sunday is the Parade up Fifth, which I'll attend.
Someone also posted a proposed "Field Trip" on the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail Transit line that Saturday ... "free rides may be given".
I know many of us just have to be their opening day ... that's fine & I know they get a lot of pleasure out of the photos they take, but
maybe we could think about a second/third Field Trip over the line when it's in regular operation in March or April on a week night. We could meet at the World Trade Center PATH station as we did for the Newark City Subway trips at about 6 PM. The ride on the PATH is a very enjoyable one by itself & I love to catch the new LRVs.
Mr t__:^)
And don't forget to bid the Newark City Subway PCCs, formally on the streets of Minneapolis/St. Paul a farewell before the changeover.
Free rides were given on Denver's light rail line during the first weekend of operation when it opened in 1994. Still no word as to whether or not free rides will be offered on the Southwest Corridor line when it opens on July 14. It turns out that I may be able to attend the festivities after all. I was supposed to go to Lithuanina in early July for some R&R, but it's beginning to look as if that won't happen. If I do attend, there will be photos galore.
And for the latest update: nearly all of the catenary support towers are now in place. The only stretch I'm not sure about is between Belleview Ave. and Littleton Blvd. One tower is right smack in the middle of the Belleview Ave. overpass. If they're going to start running test trains in March, they'll need to get the lead out and install the rest of the catenary.
I haven't seen any in service for at least a month now. It looks like the LIRR has completed the transition to the new bi-levels (or is that tri-level Sarge?). Anybody know for sure?
[I haven't seen any in service for at least a month now. It looks like the LIRR has completed the transition to the new bi-levels (or is that tri-level Sarge?). Anybody know for sure?]
A few months ago I had heard a conductor on the p.m. rush hour train to Montauk (the connection to which leaves Penn at 5:51) say that the train would be the last one to get the new equipment. It was converted at least a month ago. If the conductor had been right, I guess we indeed have seen the last of the old diesels ... and it's about time!
[and it's about time!]
I won't shed any tears either.
Even though I'm not in diesel territory, I do use the diesel trains a lot since I get off at Mineola. I find the new C-3's very comfortable, with the 2x2 seating, and quiet running. Of course, I wish they could do something with the automated announcements!
I for one am NOT going to mourn for the departure of the FILTHY diesel coaches, which I absolutely despised. The smell of them was intolerable, you couldn't see out the windows, the seats had giant craters in the middle, they bounced around enough to induce motion sickness - I used to smoke out on the platforms out of sheer contempt for them. GOOD RIDDANCE! Diesel coaches, PTUI!
wayne
Wayne, there was really nothing wrong with the coaches per se, it was how the LIRR neglected them. I remember when they were still electric MU's and they were great. They had comfortable seats. (which reversed so you never sat backwards) I will really miss riding on the platform between cars, the last vestige to the old time railroads. (or gate cars) I will also miss the days when you could stand on the last car platform when they didn't have locos on both ends.
[I remember when they were still electric MU's and they were great]
Do you know what year they were converted?
Sorry, I have no idea.
They were converted i the mid seventies although the 2900 series cars were originally stream hauled cars from 1955 and refurbished in the mid 1970s
You know, you are right. I am sure that they were rather elegant when new and looked equally good after their Morris Park Yard GOH's. I remember a train of them as self-propelled electrics on the Hempstead branch back around 1970 or so (these might have been the 2600s). A rather pleasant ride.
Any subway or rail car is going to look ratty in its old age. Just look at the original IND cars and even the BMT Standards and the LIRR MP-54s. But these decrepit conveyances were beyond ratty - they were an absolute disgrace. Let us hope the firm which has purchased them can restore them to something of their former glory.
Fair is fair.
Wayne
I heard a group of 2700 series coaches went to the Cape Cod (tourist) Railroad. Constant failures of the HEP for heating and air conditioning have caused the railroad to do major and costly modifications and still they're not right.
I hope the tourists have strong stomachs! :o>>
Wayne
The last one that had the old equipment was on the Port Jeff branch because the other old train was pulled from service on the OB branch so all lines except the electric ones and possibly the port jeff are 100% bilevel
As far as i know with confirmation from some lirr employees ther are no longer any old trains in service but there are four of them stored fro protection until all of the bilevels are finished
A couple of the clunkers are still laid up at the LIC terminal.
Maybe they will become nesting grounds for the local pigeons, that would be only fitting. Hmmm, methinks they're too bad even for the pigeons.
Wayne
[Maybe they will become nesting grounds for the local pigeons, that would be only fitting. Hmmm, methinks they're too bad even for the pigeons.]
I remember an interesting attraction at a fair or carnival some years ago. You paid a dollar and got to take three whacks at an old car with a sledge hammer. That would be a fitting send-off for the old diesels.
Wo to me and the other fence sitters who missed the ERA trip last Fall on these trains !
Mr t__:^)
Bob: I realized that I totally misread your message of 352 am and gave a wrong response. The center track of the Broadway Line between 137 St and 96 St has seen regular revenue service for only two short periods. It was used from November 1906 to January 1911 and again from January 1955 to June 1956. It is this later express service which concerns us. Trains were scheduled to stop at 137 St and then use the center track to 96 St. Even on a two minute headway this was an impractical move. The southbound express would invariably catch up to the preceding local at 103 St and one train or the other would get red signals. Going northbound in the pm rush the problem was further conpounded by local trains terminating at 137 St. I find it very interesting that the thru-express used the center track from 96 St to 157 St as you say. This was a logical move but may I suggest that it was done on an ad hoc or unofficial basis whenever congestion developed at 137 St which apparently was quite frequent. It would have been great for passengers going to 157 St and points north but I think those bound for 137 St and 145 St would have been less then pleased. The Broadway Thru-Exp service appears to have been started as a result of the popularity of the express service on the White Plains and Pelham Lines, but as you know the center track on the Broadway Line was not part of the original construction although it was in place before service began. This is the reason that it does not run the entire length of the line and that there are no express platforms.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
I was looked at a subway map from the early 80's and was wondering why they had the R going to Astoria and the N going to 71st/Continental. Was there any reason for the reversal to the current day sceme?
I don't see the Manhattan Bridge having any relevance to this but I know it relates to a lot of BMT questions in general so it might have been a reason for the switch.
Any answers are appreciated...
-Harry Beck
Actually, someone here answered the question yesterday! The N and R were switched in Queens (in 1987) in order to have easy access to a maintenance shop for both lines' fleets. Prior to 1987, N trains had easy access to Jamaica Shop at the north end and Coney Island Shop at the south end, while R trains were assigned to Coney Island but didn't have convenient access to the shop.
David
It was pretty simple. The Astoria R line had no direct access to a maintenance, while the Forest Hills Yard had 2 (Jamaica and Coney Island). When the new R68's and the GOH'ed cars began running, there was a need to have direct access to at least one yard to maintain the new cars and keep them grafitti free. So the switch was made to give the R one maintenance facility (Jamaica) and the N got Coney Island. The old Astoria R was by far the worst subway line as far as the condition of it's cars in the entire system. One of the side benefits was 24 hour/7 day access to Manhattan by Queens Blvd. local riders (since cut back).
The "R" didn't have direct access to a yard, the "N" had access to two (Jamaica IND and Coney Island).
Now, Rs are shopped at Jamaica IND, and Ns are shopped at Coney.
Has been this way since N and R lines switched routes
Is it correct to assume that Flatbush Avenue Extension did not exist
until the B.R.T. tunnels were constructed between Fulton Street and the Manhattan Bridge ?
Did Flatbush Avenue exist through Prospect Park before the six track
I.R.T./B.R.T. tunnels (between Grand Army Plaza & Ocean Avenue / Empire Boulevard ) were constructed ?
South of Prospect Park station (Brighton line), beyond the now-abandoned tower room, there exists five steel columns supporting Lincoln Road. Do these columns pre-date the construction of the sloped concrete walls of the cut ?
I have seen a photograph of Prospect Park station (ca. 1915), where the camera is at Lincoln Road, facing northward. The stone walls of the present right-of-way of the shuttle are evident. There apparently was no street overpass in this area, north of Lincoln Road (until Washington Avenue ?) How were the streets configured before the layout was changed to a "flying junction" for the connection to DeKalb Avenue ?
Thanks.
This popular annual from Kalmbach Books is now available for 2000!
You might find it for less on Amazon, but please consider buying it from your favorite trolley/transit/rail museum to help support their cause.
It is available at the Trolley Museum of New York E-Store.
Last night at about 8:15 I saw a #7 going south on the local N/R tracks through Times Sq....
Aaron,
It must have been on the way to the Coney Island repair shops. The only connection between the (7) and the rest of the subway system is at Queensborough Plaza to the (N). There are no direct connections to the remainder of the IRT.
Bob
more then Corona could handle?
Corona isn't equipped for major repairs the way CI is, so in a way, the answer is probably yes.
The NY times has a large Obit for Daniel Scannell in todays paper..
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/obit-d-scannell.html
Who was Daniel Scannell
(Who?)
A honcho at the MTA, who was a honch at the TA when it was first formed. For the past few decades, whenever they had a vacancy as head of one of the authorities they just had Scannell take over for a few months. Otherwise, he was the vice chairman of the MTA for something like 30 years.
Didn't I just post a link to the article? Sure, it's gone now, but it wasn't when you made this post.
With the MTA trying to handle the problem along second avenue in the city they have come up with a design that is so bad it made me want go up to the person who designed it and punch him in the face. Their plan is to run two tracks from 125 Street on Second Avenue then turn onto the 63 Street line and become the Broadway Express. What is that? That does not solve any problems. Congestion will still be high on Lexington because it does not go even to 42 Street on the East Side. There are problems. They have to get good designers like all the people on Subtalk. We always have great ideas but never get the chance to show them. We all should come up with a great line that will support the city. Second Avenue.... any line that will reduce crowding. I think we should take a look at the IND second subway plan and see what they have. Maybe we can modernize it and design some good subway lines that will grab the cities attention.
Why not just use the plan from the 60's-70's ?
Was in TrainLand at Lynbrook last week and got to wondering why I hadn't seen their TV show recently. It has a different spin from the Transit Transit one, but is usually interesting ... so I asked.
On Long Island Channel 80 Sat. at 4:30 and Thur at 4 PM
Reminder: Log-on to TA web site for all the stations that are carring Transit Transit, e.g. Manhattan, Brooklyn, Bronx, SI, Westchester and Long Island (Westbury/Great Neck/Brookhaven). Next month I expect to see several folks I'm acquanted with at TA's Central Elect. Shop.
Mr t__:^)
Caught the TrainLand/TrainWorld/Channel 12 show this Saturday.
Basically it showed two events: first at Freeport LI, the other at Springfield MA. Many operating layouts at both were featured, one was a trolley layout.
Mr t__:^)
Mr. t.,
You just gave me an idea. Wouldn't it be great to have an HO Scale Version of the Shore Line Trolley Museum in the middle of your living room? I can see it now.... The R-17 with a trolley pole, the ConnCo Woody (775) that never stops running. Hey! You can dream a little, can't you? If only I could scratchbuild the carbarns and put up some overhead....
-Stef
For a time, you could get HO models of the R-1/9s and BMT standards. Don't know if they're still available; I saw these models in the early 80s.
Back in the 60's there was a Standard in HO for a reasonable price, but I was buying HO box cars, RS-1s and C-Liners at May's & E.J.Korvette's. I saw some at Red Caboose recently, but high priced.
Mr t__:^)
I have a static display of a Bud RDC on my dresser ... the Dir. of Interior Affairs won't tollerate more then that.
Mr t__:^)
HEY! WE DON'T NEED THAT KIND OF LANGUAGE ON THIS BOARD!
If you don't like this Train Land TV show, you shouldn't use obscenities in your subject line to express that.
P.S. You do know I'm just joking, right?
In recent posts, the above gentleman's name has been bantered around on this site. heypaul suggested a misspelling of the name had occurred, yet spelled the name the same way.
Diligent research has revealed that heypaul was correct. The naval offficer's proper name and title is Lt Cdr Phillip Francis Queeg. Note the two l'sin Phillip.
Cdr Queeg has retired from the Navy in Stuber Forks, Iowa and is making his retirement home in Niagara Falls, New York.
Did I say Niagara Falls?
This morning I tried to take the MFL from 34th to 15th. I was in the last car. At 15th, the train pulled in, stopped, the "Doors Opening" announcement sounded, the Orange lights flashed, but the doors did not open! Looking through the end windows, I could see that the doors DID open in the other cars, but all three door sets on my car remained closed!
People trying to get off tried prying the doors, then started heading to the end door to the next to car to exit there. I went to the next car, but the doors closed before I could reach them. I went to the intercom and told the TO that the doors never opened in the last car and people still needed to get off, but the train had started moving already. No response from the TO.
So I got off at 13th and ran up to the front to make sure the TO knew what had happened. She seemed to know, so I guess she had heard me on the intercom. Being 13th St, SEPTA headquarters, there was someone on the platform that she sent back to the last car to monitor the doors for the rest of the trip.
What a pain. I had to walk back to 16th St. That took 15 minutes out of my day on my way to work.
THIS is why the M-4s need new door systems! At the very least, the TO should have known via the computer system that doors malfunctioned without having to be told over the intercom. Of course, the doors working properly in the first place would have been nice!
02/26/2000
And just to think that all those subway cars that operated for years without door trouble. This is an obvious black eye to SEPTA.
Bill Newkirk
I've noticed this delay in the door operation from the beginning and am puzzled by why it has to be. On the Budds, sometimes the doors were starting to open before the train came to a copmlete halt. Now, the train stops, and 3-5 seconds later, doors open. It's not an eternity, but I'm sure some riders are a little antsy, especially if they've been in cars in which the doors didn't open at all at one time or another.
A similar problem exists on SEPTA's Ikarus (NABI) buses' center doors. There is a 3-5 second delay between when the green light and doorwell lights go on and the doors actually open. I've been told this is a safety feature but I don't know how this promotes safety. To riders used to pushing doors, this becomes a real challenge, since they see the light go on and then push, kick, etc the doors, all to no avail.
Yes, its a black eye. But the M-3s had door problems too. I guess they were solved a long time back, but they would occasionally just open at random, while the train was moving.
I needed to get to a MetroCard Vending Machine and I was on the corner of Broadway and Prince. I ran into the Prince St. Station and asked the Token guy where the nearest MVM was? He told me City Hall. I started the long walk down Broadway but decided to go into the Canal St. Station when I got there just on a hunch. Sure enough, there were MVM's there. This is important information which the Token guys should know. If it's not part of their training, it should be.
A couple of questions come to mind, why did you need to get to an MVM?
You could have bought any type of card (except fun pass & one ride) you needed from the agent. If you needed to get to an MVM, for whatever reason, you could have bought a token and rode to City Hall.
If, indeed it was the $4 fun pass you were looking for don't blame the agent blame the TA for not selling them at booths.
Most importantly, if you were a token booth clerk would you be inclined to know or care where the MVM's were? After all these things are going to eliminate your job eventually and are being installed at such a rapid rate that it is impossible to know where they all are at any given time.
Peace,
Andee
use a token while you can.
I haven't used a token since January 15, 1998. I can't wait for them to disappear.
Why?
pigs hasn't used a token since 98, because he doesn't like being a token swine
Why I can't wait for them to disappear or why I haven't used one since 1/15/98?
Why you can't wait till they disappear. I know why you haven't used them since 1997. It's because you prefer metrocard. But if other people prefer tokens why shouldn't they be allowed to use 'em. Of course I use neither, I use my shield!! By the way,click here to hear my posting in pig talk. (Assuming you don't talk igpay atinlay)
The link didn't work.
And it was since Thursday, January 15, 1998 that I haven't used one.
I had a token in my house later, but it fell somewhere. One day, like next month when all the furniture has to be removed from my room, it might be found. I was really looking forward to adding it to my Metrocard on Wednesday, August 12, 1998, instead I had to add $1.50 in money to my card so I had enough to go home and make a round trip the next day.
Why do people need to use the things? It's all for petty, stupid reasons. I guess that it doesn't actually harm me if they do. If the token is eliminated, what will the Roosevelt Island Operating Corporation do?
Speaking of RIOC, since I used the tram in May of 1999, that effectively means that THAT was the last time I used a token. Oh well, it's too bad I have no way of recalling that date. I remember that was the day I set my walking endurance record by going to 59th and Second from West Broadway and Chambers. A few months later I extended that to 159th and Broadway, and finally, a couple of weeks ago it was from the Battery to Marble Hill.
Aren't RIOC tokens different from NYCT tokens? They were when I last rode the tram in, oh, 1995 or so. (And they were more expensive than NYCT tokens.)
MOTORMAN KEN'S LAST STAND
They are the same now, the fare is the same.
Then the RIOC must have some reiumbursement arrangement with NYCT. Why can't MetroCard turnstiles be installed, then?
I heard that the RIOC is too poor (yeah right).
Anybody know the history of the Roosevelt Island tokens (or, for that matter, have any additional information on the tramway itself)?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The tramway was opened by the RIOC in 1976 to provide service to Manhattan. They originally wanted a ferry, but it didn't go through. The tram was supposed to stand until the subway station there would open. The station opened on October 29, 1989, but the tram survived, because of it's uniquness. I assume that tokens were minted on day one, because they probably tried to keep their fare below the subway probably as a favor to RI residents who would have to take a bus from Second Avenue. When they raised their fare to $1.50, it obviously became cheaper to buy tokens from the TA than to make their own. Their token machines, turnstiles and booth, at least on the Manhattan Island side all look like typical pre-Metrocard subway fare (no pun intended). The machines still say that the fare is 1.15, although tokens are dispensed in the standard manner the subway machines did. The booth uses a wooden coin dish, mostly eliminated from the subway.
Appreciation
Oh yes, here are the tokens they used. I got this from the JoeKorNer Other Token Page.
And what makes these Aqueduct Racetrack (below) and later Express Bus tokens different from the regular token used 1953-79? What makes the 53-70 and 70-79 tokens different?
Thanks for the history lesson. I've ridden the tramway one time, over and back, just to say I've done it - I'm not particularly fond of swinging in the air like that. It was a less unnerving ride than the tram at the Bronx Zoo, though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Eye have some of these that folks have put in our fare boxes.
P.S. Also have TBTA $3.50 bridge tokens ... a few rolls leftovers when we used them before the E-Z-Pass.
Send me a private e-mail if you're interested.
BTW, I'm doing this as favor to my SubTalk friends and therefore am NOT interested in making a profit, just covering the cost because them belong to the company.
Mr t__:^)
I used tokens on January 8th this year - a short hop from 179th Street to 33rd-Rawson and back (with transfer at Roosevelt and additional fare paid crossing under at 33rd-Rawson). After I bought them I turned around and there was an MVM staring me in the face. But I came out $1.00 ahead - I really didn't need a Fun Pass that day.
Wayne
I was just about to ask the same question.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
http://www.angelfire.com/biz4/nyctransit
Most importantly, if you were a token booth clerk would you be inclined to know or care where the MVM's were? After all these things are going to eliminate your job eventually and are being installed at such a rapid rate that it is impossible to know where they all are at any given time.
The following will be a question on the upcoming MVM FAQ (currently at work):
Will the MVMs replace the Station Agents?
Absolutely not, what will likely happen is that agents will no longer be selling things and will be able to leave the booth, to assist persons with the machines which will be the only way to pay fare, and with directions, maps and other duties which agents already perform.
[A couple of questions come to mind, why did you need to get to an MVM? ]
Because I wanted to buy a monthly pass and but the only form of currency I had on me was a credit card and no ATM card. So I needed an MVM.
I regret the problem you had finding an MVM. Unfortunately, they do not give us updated lists of where to find the MVMs. If the Station Agent at price did not go to Canal, they might not have known that Canal had machines. We are only human beings. Please give us a break!
[We are only human beings. Please give us a break! ]
My complaint is that the station agent did not have the proper information on-hand. The station agent did a good job in telling me where he thought the closest MVM was and he was polite about it but he should have also mentioned that there may be a closer one which he doesn't know about.
Today from 11am to 2pm, there is not downtown service over the Manhattan Bride. The Q is running on the N/R, The D is running on the F after w4, and the B is a shuttle somewhere.
Funny, I did not see any evidence of this today while waiting for a N/B "D" train at 34th street today @ around 12:30pm I saw 2 Brooklyn bound "Q"s on 6th ave. and 1 "B" while I was waiting and no announcements to this effect were being made.
Peace,
Andee
There were signs on the platforms on the beams.
I'll bet my co-workers are glad I'm not in the office today, to raise hell about the Manhattan Bridge issue once again. Subtalkers are sick enough of it as it is.
I'll tell you what I'm sick of and it's not your memos on the Bridge. It is, however, the constant rehashing of this or that problem that prevents the repairs from becoming complete. Those repairs on the MannyB should have been done by now, and from what I know such a reopening of the bridge would go a long way to alleviate traffic on the Southern lines into Brooklyn. How about it, are we ever going to get this repair nonsense finished once and for all?
It's not that simple. Because of the way it's designed, the bridge cracks under stress every time a train crosses the bridge. It's not just about strengthening the bridge to deal with this stress, it's repairing the damage that is incurred every day as trains cross it. To put it simply, the bridge falls apart every single day.
Isn't there a method of rebuilding which would more eveny distribute the concentrated weight of the trains? There are plenty of railroad bridges in this country.... What is it specifically about the MB's construction that makes it sucepptable to felxing weight damage?
dave
Is it possible? how 'bout it? My typing is atrocious!
A spel chekar is not reqwired on this site. We just kneed meny dicshunairys.
LOL.
You remind me of NYC Subway's public announcing system.
Chaohwa
A spell checker, or A Grammer checker would not exept train contracts,
or certain railroading terms
No, but it would catch many errors, including the ones you just made. It's unfortunate that a thorough knowledge of our language isn't required in school any more. People of my generation, by and large, knew how to write proper English long before we graduated from grammar school - indeed, even the very term applied to that phase of our education says something about the emphasis that was placed on learning proper English. My ancestors emigrated to this continent nearly 400 years ago, but I went to school with many whose parents arrived just before or after the war (World War II); even though the students did not always hear proper English spoken at home (or any English, for that matter), they learned to speak and write it as well as anyone else. Today that no longer seems to be important. My children have learned it well, but I'm afraid that is in spite of our schools.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As long as we're discussing "needs" for SubTalk (and BusTalk, too), why not beg for a killfile (filter) too. That would REALLY come in handy!
With the trackways placed on the outer edges of the roadway, the support beams bend and crack at the center everytime a train crosses. If you took a ruler, grabbed each end and pushed with a large enough force, the ruler will split into 2 pieces in the middle. That's a rough idea of what the Manhattan Bridge has to deal with.
Let me take a shot and say..the subway tracks are on the OUTSIDES of the bridge..the WillyB is in bad shape, but not too much problem with tourture and cracking there...because the tracks are on the inside center, even distrubtion
I'm telling you, we're not that far off from a "Bridge Disaster in New York" newspaper headline.
We are far off. Unless an earthquake strikes. These disaster scenarios some people on this board foresee are greatly exaggerated and far fetched.
B is a shuttle between 36 St. and Stillwell Ave. Coney Island.
What is the Emergency work needed for?
If it's only the south-bound side, probably the broken rail I was talking about. But, I think they should have fixed it by now.
(Could be the broken rail I was talking about)
Maybe the rail broke because a stringer failed. Where are the investigative journalists when you need them?
As we are now less than 700 post's away from post number 100,000 I propose we have a contest and prize as to who will be post 100,000.
Whay'da think?
Peace,
Andee
Memememememememememememe! ME!
Do you want to be the poster or are you offering yourself as the prize? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd say there should be a rule... the 100,000th post must be on topic and in an existing thread; otherwise you'll just get a whole bunch of junk right around there, people just trying to be lucky by posting garbage.
Agreed
After all you ARE the boss.......
Yeah but I'm not the one offering the prize. You can do what you want. I was merely making that suggestion so that if someone does decide to actually offer a prize, I think the person who wins it should have won it by making an honest contribution.
I have a suggestion for a thread as we get within maybe 50 posts of 100,000 : What has this website meant to us? What keeps us coming back? How have we changed?
As for prizes, I think we all win everytime we share part of ourselves with others.
I offered a prize if people took my test, did people take it? NO! And I was serious about the prize!
Can anyone get us a press pass to the publicity run of either Acela Express or the R142 (whenever those events occur). I mean actually getting on the train of course. If so, sounds like a good contest to me! -Nick
I posted a message about two days ago wondering if anybody could account for the whereabouts of the R142's on Wednesday, because I thought I saw them testing the cars on the 7th Avenue IRT. Sure enough, I got two e-mails from people, and people responded on this board, saying that they saw the same thing I did. This leads me to this question: When will we see the first R142 train be in revenue service. Since they were testing them on Wednesday, and making stops along 7th Avenue (just test stops, and not opening the doors), and if everything went o.k., we should probably see them in revenue service soon. Another question. Why would they test them along the 7th Avenue IRT near South Ferry? Wouldn't it be easier to test them along the Lexington Av IRT. Does anybody know what line will see the first R142's. I know they have been saying 2,5,6 but which line will see them first. I wonder if the 6 that the R142 was displaying is a tipoff that the 6 train will get them first.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
The R-142s will be in revenue service when NYCT is good and ready to put them into revenue service, and not a minute before. Asking this same question week after week after week isn't going to make anybody put the trains into service any sooner.
The first R-62 arrived in August 1983, but the pilot train didn't enter revenue service until late November. And the R-62 didn't incorporate any major technological advances over what was already around, while the R-142/142A is a quantum leap beyond anything else NYCT is running in regular service.
Many, many people have to be trained on these cars: Train Operators, Conductors, Train Service Supervisors, RTO Superintendents, Car Maintainers, and Road Car Inspectors are some, but not all. This is a large purchase of technologically advanced equipment that has to last for many years, and NYCT wants to make sure that it's done right.
Now, the non-snippy version :-) : Railway Age says May or June.
David
So does anyone know when the R-142's will enter into revenue service?
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
Clark Palicka
CEO TrAnSiTiNfO
LONG LIVE THE REDBIRDS.
As of 9 PM last night the official word is that:
1) The R-142As will go to the Pelham line. They will be the first to go into service (now expected to be some time in June). The R-142s will follow later at 239th St and East 18th Street.
2) First, the redbirds will be retired. Once there are enough cars in service, the Pelham R-62As will be moved to the #7 line.
3) Sunnyside Yard is being looked at as a possible storage site for the Reddbirds, which will be stored for up to 2 years.
A qualification:
Approximately 470 Redbirds will remain in service when all the R-142 and R-142A cars have been placed in service: 320 because there are more Redbirds than R-142/142As, and 150 to support rush hour service increases where track capacity allows for them. Those 470 (or so) cars are to be replaced by the next IRT order, which hasn't been placed yet (or assigned a contract number, as far as I'm aware; at least some of them could be options on the two existing contracts).
David
The next question to be asked is whether or not those 470 Redbirds will come from one car class or a combination of classes. I would lean on one car class in particular, but I'm not a high ranking official who can declare to be as such. R33s anyone?
-Stef
My understanding is that Car Equipment will go by condition, irrespective of car class, in determining which Redbirds stay and which go.
David
>>>...239th St and East 18th Street. <<<
Don't you mean East 180th St.??
Peace
Andee
Yes, I did mean East 180th St. - That pesky (0) key again....
What about those DAMN SINGLES? When will they finally stand trial in hell for their crimes against humanity and especially suidaity?
Suidaity -- Please Define the word
SUIDAITY
As humanity is for the evil, filthy humans, suidaity is for the great, benevolent swine.
Thank You, o great and noble one.
Good lord, man! You need some serious help. The constant change of personalities is getting to you. It's like your suffering from an obsession with the so called single unit. Perhaps you mean the opposite. You're madly in love with the single unit. Wanna get hitched? You'll become a part of a married pair. Hehehe. Do you require counseling? Surely someone at Bellvue could help out....
-Stef
Ditto
There is a simple solution: Dispose of this loathsome vehicle at once.
I don't know ... I think perhaps a good use of them would be to haul swine to the processing plant ... after all, pork should always be fully cooked ... Chicago had its stockyards 'L', why shouldn't New York?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When??????????
How would they get them all to Sunnyside?
Interesting question!!!!! The only way I can think of is a double move across the Hells Gate Bridge. If anyone can think of a shorter route I'd love to hear it. I'd also love to see Redbirds on the hells gate Bridge for another reason. My new O gauge layout will have my R-42s and R-21s crossing the Hells Gate bridge and I would like to be prototypical......
Across the bridge? Hmmm. I was thinking the NY and Atlantic Rwy could pick up the batches of Redbirds at Linden Yard.
-Stef
And from there?
Let's see. What's the best way for the Redbirds to head up to Sunnyside? SBK locos N1 and N2 will pull the hordes into Linden Yard to be interchanged with the NY and Atlantic. Once the interchange is complete, the Redbirds may get towed by the NY&A on the Bay Ridge Line north to Fresh Pond Junction and then via the LIRR Long Island City Branch to Sunnyside Yard. I sincerely hope that the cars will be secured since they're being reserved for possible future use because the vandals won't hesitate in marking them up.
Anyway, how does that sound?
-Stef
That works!
For security I propose electrified, concertina / razor wire equipped double fences.
I would like to hear from David and Steve about possible security for stored Redbirds @ Sunnyside.
Steve's post was the first I'd heard about storage at Sunnyside, though NYCT's been talking about taking over part of that yard for years.
David
First i heard about it was Friday night. I'm not sure I like the idea. However a certain number will be kept on TA property. They will be inspected regularly in case they are needed.
Once the redbirds are stored, how much will it cost to keep them in mothballs. Wont they have to be inspected/serviced at time intervals rather than mileage intervals. (Yes- I agree that they should be mothballed.) Does Sunnyside have subway compatible 3rd rail that they can use or will they be mothballed without 3rd rail?
If I recall correctly, most of the yard is without 3rd rail, unless you put them in the confines of the Amtrak Passenger Yard. Even then, Amtrak's Yard is more catenary that 3rd rail. I'd expect the cars to be stored among the freight cars. The Redbirds in dead storage would have to be pulled around by the NY and Atlantic Locomotives.
As for 3rd Rail Compatibility, I believe that the LIRR's contact rail is higher than that of NYCT. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. The only way the Redbirds could run is if their shoes were adjusted for the LIRR.
I can't recall, but are the shoes self adjusting? Or would they have to be adjusted by hand?
News Bulletin (Imaginary): I can see it now. The headlines are NYC SUBWAY CARS TO BE RUN ON A FAN TRIP UTILIZING LIRR TRACKAGE chartered by the local railroad club. How about it? I'll take a Redbird to Penn Station or points east at anytime!!!
-Stef
(As for 3rd Rail Compatibility, I believe that the LIRR's contact rail is higher than that of NYCT. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. The only way the Redbirds could run is if their shoes were adjusted for the LIRR.)
Although I really don't know for sure if the Subway's third rails are different (lower) than the LIRR's I do know that in the early part of the century there were trains (the MP-41's) that ran on both systems-there was a connection between the Jamaica El and the LIRR Bklyn Line- and there were LIRR trains that went over the Williamsburg. I don't know if either system changed all their third rails after that service ended.
Hmmmm, I saw R142As being tested on the Dyre Avenue line last Tuesday. When the R142A was running, it always showed "6" with a circle. I had a gut feeling that the R142As will go to the Pelham line.
Well, my gut feeling went true.
BTW, when they tested the R142As, I saw the front-end route number signs with circles, without circles, and with diamonds. Very Interesting!
Chaohwa
Did You see the R142 Protection train behind it?
I saw the R142A train around Gun Hill Road. I did not notice the protection train because I did not ride to Dyre Avenue to observe other actions.
Chaohwa
Do you mean a solo diesel unit? I can recall diesel 69 following the test train on the way out of 180th St Shop sometime ago...
-Stef
I'm not sure if thats the train because I haven't seen it but all week on the radio I heard Control Center communicate with the R142 and the Protection train.
what is the Protection Train and what is the purpose behind it?
A protection train is mearly a train that is placed between the train it is protecting and the normal traffic behind it. This is normally done when the train that requires protection is 'foreign' or does not for other reason, interface properly with the signal system, thus providing no signal protection. There are other reasons for protection trains but the idea remains the same...
What color was the front-end 6 sign? Was it green as it should be or was it red? I've heard that the 142s can only display front-end signs in red because they could not get LEDs in other colors in time. Someone said they spotted a red 5 sign.
Unbelievable! Pelham is getting first crack at the 142s and Flushing is still stuck with those horrible, no-A/C R33 singles. Why aren't the 142s going to White Plains Rd and Dyre Av first? Is Pelham yard even partially equipped to handle them? Who are the geniuses running the "A" division?
The color is always red. I spotted red 1 to 9 signs with and without circles and with diamonds. Circles and diamonds signs are also red.
I was lucky that when I was at Gun Hill Road station, the testing crew were testing the front-end route sign system.
Chaohwa
I'm interested in writing a short article on the Hudson Line commuter trains into GCT for the British Railway Magazine, the worlds oldest magazine serving the railroad enthusiast since 1897.
I would like some basic history/information on the three main types of trains used on the line, namely the venerable Alco diesels, the equally venerable electric multiple units of the NYCL and their contemporary cousins.
These trains and their operation will be of great interest to UK enthusiasts as many of the design features and operating practices employed on the line would likely be considered excentric or even unsafe by modern British standards. I for one enjoy taking the Hudson line trains as they bring me back 20 odd years - bear in mind that Diesel locomotive haulage of passenger trains is now a rarity and there are only a handful of 1950s vintage trains still in operation in the UK.
If anyone has any useful information please let me know.
If you have not tried it yet I think this site may help you
http://www.railroad.net/nyc
Peace,
Andee
We have some info here: MetroNorth. And here's another good reference site:
http://haviland.org/rail/
-Dave
Aren't only FL-9 and Genesis locomotives allowed in GC?
I got a hold of the Transit Authority's 2000 operating budget proposal. The ridership information there conflicts with that posted by the Federal Transit Administration.
As I reported in a prior thread, the FTA site has NYCT heavy rail ridership approaching 1.8 billion in FY 1999. It was only about 1.0 billion a decade ago.
I had mentioned that I was stunned by this development, and that the most I would have predicted was 1.3 or 1.4 billion -- the ridership level in 1960, after everyone had cars but before the crime and deterioration decline of the system. Well, according to the NYCT Operating Budget proposal, subway ridership was just 1.3 billion in 1999 (est.), about what I would have predicted. So ridership isn't shockingly high, its as I as I would have expected in an optimistic scenario. Things are good, but the world has not fundamentally changed.
What's the difference in the two figures? I suppose I'd have to call the FTA to find out for sure. But here are two theories:
1) The FTA erroneously counted both bus and subway ridership under subway. Maybe someone mis-read a form. Happens all the time in the employment data.
2) The FTA counted bus to subway transfers as two rides, while the Transit Authority counted them as bus rides (in an effort to make the previously-declining bus system seem more important). I guess if it was up to me, I'd count them as a half-ride each.
Assumption 2 is likely correct FTA counts all boardings of a vehicle as a ride (unlinked trips) Revenue passengers is a better number to look at. It counts the ride as you pay a fare or enter the system. A bus ride that needs a transfer is two trips not one. So is a subway ride but with linked stations it is difficult to count as are all transit rides. Accurate passenger counts are tricky at best. The large and more complex the system the harder it is to do.
Also for budget purposes many transit agencies prefer to underestimate ridership, because of the relationship to revenue. Always nice to receive more fare box collections than budget than trying to explain a short fall
Joe
Today's news stories made me wonder about ridership levels in the not-so-distant future. As everyone who hasn't been living in a cave knows by now, the stock market has been going through a fussy period for the last month or so. Whether you blame it on interest rate fears, natural cycles or mob psychology, the Dow has dropped something like 20% in the last month. While the NASDAQ hit a high just this past Thursday, it too fell on Friday.
Should this "correction" continue, I foresee some unfavorable consequences for transit ridership. At some point, the big brokerages are going to start laying off staff. Although the financial services industry employs fewer people in NYC than often thought, its high pay scales mean that jobs have a major "multiplier effect." If some 25-year-old making $500,000 per year loses his job, the lost spending and tax revenue will be significant. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.
(Negative consequences of Wall St downturn)
On the other hand, Wall Street has been pushing up the price of everything, squeezing growing industries out. I think a significant downturn would result in the loss of few jobs, net.
On the other hand, those mega-profits and bonuses have inflated the City and State budgets. A downturn may mean more riders -- and less service.
That is the big "if" of the NYC economy. The DJI (9862.12 yesterday) is down 16% from it's 52-week (and all time) high of 11750.28, a correction by any standard. The drop means that the DJI is only up 5% from one year ago. But the Nasdaq is roaring at 4590.50, down only 0.6% from it's high of 4620.03. The big question is when will Wall Street get real nervous and start laying people off. Not to mention the fact that the NYSE is trying to understand if it really needs a huge trading floor in the age of the internet. Other brokerage firms will surely follow the NYSE's lead in this matter. The looming second problem in the NYC economy is the all these internet start-ups in the overblown Silicon Alley are overdue for a nasty shakeout, as it slowly dawns on investors that a lot of these trendy little operations are never going to make any money. Wall Street has tons more jobs than Silicon Alley ever will. If the Alley companies start to shrink or more likely disappear it will be a blow more to the city's image than anything else at this point.
(NYSE asking why it needs a trading floor)
It "needs" one because the city is willing to give it a million dollars to build one. If it turns out to be obsolete, the room can be used for something else.
[(NYSE asking why it needs a trading floor)
It "needs" one because the city is willing to give it a million dollars to build one. If it turns out to be obsolete, the room can be used for something else.]
Of course, then the city will have flushed a million dollars down the toilet, something it's particularly skilled at doing.
(New York City flushes money down the toilet)
If only all the money was, in fact, being flushed down the toilet, it might be possible to stop doing it, and use the money for transit improvements instead. Since the money is in fact being overpaid to powerful interests, stopping is much harder.
THIS REALLY SUCKS
The opening to the vault is jammed with a vacuum cleaner. It's power switch is jammed in the on position. Nobody has the brain power to figure out that the solution is to unplug the vacuum.
[(Negative consequences of Wall St downturn)
On the other hand, Wall Street has been pushing up the price of everything, squeezing growing industries out. I think a significant downturn would result in the loss of few jobs, net.
On the other hand, those mega-profits and bonuses have inflated the City and State budgets. A downturn may mean more riders -- and less service.]
You know, that ties in with stuff I've been reading recently. Wall Street's stratospheric pay levels have contributed to a "hyperinflation" in real estate and elsewhere that's making the city almost unaffordable for most businesses and individuals. Even with the multiplier effect, I suppose that losing some of these bonus baby salaries might be helpful in the long run ... and let's face it, most people will be not altogether heartbroken to hear of some 25-year-old who was making $500,000 a year suddenly finding himself "decruited."
Some things I've seen...
1) This week, a 10 car train of Silverliner IV's on layup hit the bumper post at the end of track 7 at Suburban Station this week. No one was hurt seriously.
2) Yesterday at the Dilworth Plaza SST station, I saw a chartered 2 car train of LRV's with the couplers unfolded. It was the first time I've seen them used.
The couplers on the K cars have been used on and off in revenue service over the past couple of years. Not lately, though.
As my luck has it, however, I had occasion to use the subway-surface on 2/11 for a short hop each way. Westbound, there was some unexplained delay (it always seems to happen when I use the line!). On my eastbound trip, I descended the stairs to the platform at 33rd to find a dead Route 11 car at the far south end of the station, with a Route 34 behind it trying to couple up. After about 6 tries, the operators did it and ran the train as far as Juniper. Most passengers didn't even take notice. I'm not sure what happened beyond there since I left, but there was a large crowd waiting for outbound cars (much bigger than a typical 2:30 PM weekday).
Since when did they operate 10 car silverliner consists?
They don't, at least not in revenue service, but you can often see long out-of-service consists being moved between Suburban Station and 30th Street during the day. I once saw a 12-car consist running light out of Wayne Junction on a Saturday, apparently just transferring some cars down to Powelton Yard.
The category registration period has calsed. These are the final categories. I am sorry if your was not slected or if you did not get around to sending it in. So here is the list:
Best Thread
Best Subtalker in a leading role
Best Subtalker in a supporting role
Best Subtalker in a technical or advisory role
Best Website Host
Funniest Subtalker
Best Flamer
Best Impersonation of a Subtalker
Worst Transit Official
Worst Elected Official (transit wise)
Subway Criminal of the Year
Best Subway Supporter
Best Subtalker in the field
Best Animated Gif.
Most creative handle
Most changed handle
Best contributed article
Best contributed photos
Most prolific poster
Most prolific debator
Worst speller
Life time award ... Subtalker since day one & still active
Funniest Single Post
Best Website Maintained by a Subtalker
Best Overseas Contributor
Technical Awards
Best Transit System
Best Forigen Transit System
Best Subway Car (any system)
Best Subway Car (NYC)
Best Station (NYC)
Best Line (NYC)
Best Station (any system)
Best Line (any system)
Best Commuter Railroad
Best Interlocking Tower
Best Yard
Best New Transit Project (completed)
Worst Subway Car
Greatest Transit Boondoggle (pending or completed)
I NOW NEED NOMINATIONS
Early returns were great, but I still need more. I want to have 4 finalists for each category. Nominate more than 1 if need be. If you don't nominate, I will.
REMEMBER: The Nominations are for the year ending 1999. Please no historical nominations no matter how good they might be. If we are going to do this every year it has to change from time to time. For Best Thread and Best Poster nominations please include a movie-review type of description of the thread. Somethine like "A Heartwarming tale of..." or "A non-stop mad house of laught about...". Threads are quickly forgotten here and it helps ppl remember. Also for best .gif please include a sample of the .gif. Also please don't all nominate one thing. I know the R33 single is hands down the worst, but it not right to have it run unopposed. There are some other bad subway cars that deserve some credit too.
E-mail Me
It's rare that I'm at WCBS on a weekday. Just a few minutes ago, it was my job to say:
"This WCBS Newsradio-88 Travelers' Weather Report is sponsored by ACELA Regional Service". My instructions are to report the forecasted conditions for Boston, Philadelphia, and Washington, DC. But there's no explanation that ACELA Regional currently runs only to Boston.
Truly, Transit and Weather Together!
Acela regional is two Washington Boston trains a day so it actually runs the entire length of the ne corridor
The ACELA ad WCBS/88 plays has a contradiction in it. The announcer extols the laptop ports as a virtue, while the rest of the commercial is dedicated to the fact that the passenger depicted no longer has time to write his novel (presumably on a laptop!) because the train is up to 90 minutes faster than it once was.
David
Hey - that's 90 min faster assuming it's on time, which a few of the new Acela regionals haven't been doing lately.
What's truely sad is that there are some Amtrak trains that are only 3 or so minutes faster than Metro-North.
Another thing - I noticed that a few train's on the hartford run have been cut back to New haven ("change at New Haven"), and Cdot locomotives are appearing at the front, so I'm starting to think my predictions of Amtrak abandoning the inland route altogether might be true after all.
It doesn't bother me - I'm, hoping to take my last Amtrak train sometime this spring, save for one ride on the Acela Express if/when is starts service.
(Inland route might be abandoned)
We'll have to see how successful boat owners are at having the ACELA trains wait at the drawbridges.
The Times Union has announced that AMTRAK plans high speed trains to Albany. These, I assume, would be diesel. Is the West Side line electrified?
Diesel and high speed are opposite terms. Amtrak's been calling ANYTHING that can break 80 "high speed" lately, though I believe the acepted definition is top speed > 150 and average speed > 100.
Only way to get that is with electrification. From what I understand, there's only about 5 miles along the Hudson line that are faster than 100 anyway. I doubt the F-40's can get going that fast, and the P-32s might be able to if you let them accelerate for a day or two...
//We'll have to see how successful boat owners are at having the ACELA trains wait at the drawbridges.
Not to mention Metro-North's always fair dispatcing, Amtrak's inability to run on time even on their own track, and the usual snags and screwups that they're prone to.
Not to mention the express sets are nowhere to be found, nor are the HHL-8s. And I've heard that the first rebuilt AEM-7AC was a disaster.
I wouldn't hold my breath for either Acela (express), or continued Amtrak funding past next year. Esp when congress sees the price tag and results of Acela.
I've noticed that too...I was on my way back up to UConn from New York last Sunday and while we were at New Haven I saw the diesel coming into the station to take Train 472 the rest of the way to Springfield. Sure enough, it was a ConnDot GP40, not the usual Amtrak F40. I thought it was because Amtrak was short on diesels that day. I asked a conductor on the train if Amtrak was going to abandon the Springfield line. She said no, that service there is going to stay. But you never know. Amtrak would be foolish to abandon the Hartford/Springfield line. They just need to improve it. Then it would have better patronage.
Now David, you expect radio ads to be as clear and concise as
NYCTA announcements??? :-)
Yes, I do...and I guess this one is :-)
David
Yesterday morning a photographer from the Daily News
came over to my apartment to photograph me and my
motorman's compartment. It went very well. I think
he only intended to take 2 or 3 shots, but when he
saw the pile of 5,000 keys that I have confiscated
in my search for the key to the foodlocker he was
intrigued. Then he wanted to know what I was
planning to do with about 100 seed pods that I had
in the living room. I explained that I was planning
to replace all the people who currently post on
SubTalk with clones who would be under my direct
control. They would have a computer chip implanted
in their right brain that would cause them to laugh at my command.
I don't know when and if the follow up article on
transit fans will appear, but I wish to assure
everyone that I did my best, as usual, to irritate
as many people as possible.
Paul, I for one am not at all irritated by your irritating behavior. Please try harder to irritate me as your irritationg remarks and postings have yet to irritate me to the point of sending you irritating e-mails in an irritating attempt for me to your postings more irritating. Got that?
I hope my response was in no way irritating to my fellow SubTalkers.
You mean you are going to upgrade us from those nasty old crystal implants you previously installed? Thank the lord, all I can pick up on mine is reruns of the bob grant radio show from 1989.
these new chips will be a great improvement over the crystal implants--- listening to bob grant has obviously seriously affected several subtalkers--- the new chips will randomly play clips from lynn samuels from wabc, grandpa al lewis from wbai, who's on first, niagara falls, and the honeymooners---
it will be a much happier world for me when all the rest of you people see things my way--- although who will i have to irritate?
(the new chips will randomly play clips from lynn samuels from wabc, grandpa al lewis from wbai,)
What about Cousin Brucie Morrow, Harry Harrison, Don K Reed, or Howard Stern!!!
howard stern???
if there is a hell or purgatory--- i would like to see him and his sidekicks have to do their morning show for all eternity--- they would have to keep up their patter and shtick forever--- that would be a just punishment for that whole crew--- they give pigs a bad name and they make our pigs from royal island seem like the saint he is---
cousin brucie and harry harrison are good people--- cousin brucie is a real brooklyn person
Do you think your funny? Well you stink!!! Your the most boring, obnoxious, jerk I have ever had the misfortune to come in contact with. You should stick your humor wlfk;'7df86/; ..htg l9534r LKDS IS%*#9DXzavb................,nnnmmmmaaaaaaoooooooooooo*********______
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. Very funny heypaul. Your jokes inpsire me. All hail heypaul, ruler of Subtalk!!
jersey mike--- the beginning of your message indicated that your receiver had drifted a bit off the controlling frequency--- that has been rectified, using a full wave diode rectifier---- you have also received instructions on the counting of ballots for the subtalk awards--- you will receive your virtual reality reading glasses in the mail--- they will enable you to see people's votes the way i want them to be---- over and out...
I just want to comment on someones choice of handle.
wsteil@mankato.msus.edu decided to use IRT1904. I just want to point out that IRT1904 (@aol.com) has been my E-mail address since 1995 and I am perturbed that someone had the chutzpah to use it.
I was going to use it as my handle but I decided to keep using my name because my postings could be a bit more personal that way.
I respectfully request to wsteil@mankato.msus.edu that you ask WebMaster Dave P. to allow you to change your handle.
I don't need anyone thinking your postings are from me.
Allan (irt1904@aol.com)
Are handles caps sensitive?
Not When you use the display messages link (ex:typing in "pigs of royal island" will display messages by "Pigs of Royal Island"
NOTORIOUS P.I.G.
I am honored, that of the many Substalkers, you chose me as your example.
I'm trying to figure out whether the scenes from an episode where Superman stops a runaway subway train by snapping the third rail used footage from Chicago or New York subway systems.
Does anyone here go far back enough to remember this?
Doug aka BMTman
doug--- i seem to remember an episode when superman tried to stop a speedy set of triplexes and got run over--- i don't think that's the one you meant---
Unfortunately, yes. While my memory may be faulty, I would swear that the subway train featured was an R1/9 train. Episode details are hazy, but I believe that the bad guys set up the local to rear end the express on the same track. Superman stopped the train by snapping the third rail. I think Jimmy or Lois was on the lead train.
I don't believe that I have seen this episode in over 20 years.
Do you remember the designation of the local train?
Valley Local
Give that man 2 points!!!
It was Metropolis!!!!!
Why didn't he just pull one of the emergency 3rd-rail cutt-off's. I mean with hus super speed he could have easily reached one in time. This goes to show that super stregnth does not equal super inteligence or even super humor for that matter.
The writer obviously didn't do his homework.
Apparently, he wasn't a SUPER RAILFAN!
I guess Superman doesn't care if there's a full-width cab with no RAILFAN WINDOW. Ah, to have X-ray vision...
If we all had X-ray vision, we wouldn't care if there was a RAILFAN WINDOW or not, unless the trains were made of lead!
What about the subway scene in Superman IV (I think it was IV)?
Well I was going to mention the newer scene in Superman IV, this shows
a train operator passing out and collapsing over the 'deadmans handle'
(still keeping pressure on it).The train travels through a few stations without stopping before the man of steel lands in front of it
and discharges traction current by the use of his legs!
This scene features a 1973 stock Piccadilly Line train on Londons Underground fitted with Metropolis Transit logos!
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Thank you Rob for clearing that one up - now which station was it filmed in? I could see plainly that it was LU stock but unfortunately I can't tell one post-1959/1962 stock from the other just yet.
Wayne
It was a train of R-1/R-9s, which I believe was signed "AA." They showed the same clip several times, sometimes reversed! I'm also pretty sure that the same clip was used in an "I Love Lucy" episode, perhaps "Lucy and the Loving Cup."
Having said this, I hope we won't go off on a 1950s TV jag for the next week and a half.
David
[Having said this, I hope we won't go off on a 1950s TV jag for the next week and a half.]
Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings.... :-)
I havent seen that episode since Officer Joe Bolten had it on, but it was so interesting to me as a 6 year old, that I memorized it.
They used 2 different types of cars. In the first scene,where the bad guys knock out the motorman, they used Low V's.
Afterwards, they used footage of R1-9's running through a tunnel. They did not show Superman breaking the 3rd rail- he actually broke the catwalk hand railing.
I guess the writers had no idea of how power is distrubuted in NYC subways.
Bob D, thanks for your additional info on this thread.
I thought I recall the scene used Low V's. I had forgotten about the footage of R 1-9's. Typical Hollywood fare (screwing up technical details about the subway).
P.S., Bob, do you still deal with Nanette Rainone (of BRIC)?
Doug aka BMTman
"in the first scene, where the bad guys knock out the motorman, they used Low V's."
IIRC, after slugging the motorman the crook rings a gong before notching out the controller and jumping off. Since these episodes were filmed in California in the early '50's while Pacific Electric was breathing its last, I think it might be possible that a P.E. car was used for this brief scene.
Anyone know for sure?
Most likely, the sequence was filmed in the one subway station housed in the basement of the Subway Terminal Building in downtown Los Angeles. I believe that the building is now a national historical landmark and the underground area is used for storage. Most of the one mile tunnel that was used by certain PE cars from points such as Glendale is still intact.
Most is a relative term, I guess - it is my understanding that the footings of several newer buildings have penetrated the tunnel.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's quite possible that some of the underpinnings of newer buildings do extend into the tunnel. The subway extends diagonally from the Subway Terminal Building through the newer developments in and around Bunker Hill. Since downtown Los Angeles is topogrpahically challenging, I am not sure if the fittings extend all of the way into the tunnel or not.
A local personality does shows of people and landmarks in the LA area that are of interest to PBS viewers. One show was devoted entirely to the tunnel. He and a guide walked quite a distance in the tunnel with the cameras rolling and it seemed to me that everything was as it was some 40 to 50 years ago.
That show (Huell Howser's "Visiting" or "California's Gold" depending on which episode) DID in fact state that the underpinnings of the Union Bank building on Figueroa & Fifth run right through the old PE subway tunnel and it is NOT possible to walk the entire length. One must enter either at the Subway Terminal building, or enter at the tunnel portal near Beverly & Glendale Blvd. as they did on the program.
Was it one of the earlier black-and-white episodes, or one of the later color ones? I've seen most of those episodes, but not that one. Was Lois Lane played by Phyllis Coates or Noel Neill?
Noel Neil ones. George Reeves played Clark Kent/Superman.
Since the beginning of SubTalk, the question of whether or not the 7 Line could be extended west has been frequently debated. A critical issue is whether or not the lower level of the 8th Ave. IND is "in the way." Recently, I promised to take my Casio Altimeter Watch to the site, and make some measurements. (For those of you new to SubTalk, this is how I have provided depth measurements to Peggy's Line-by-Line write-ups on the site. Please note: Measurements are +/- 10 feet.)
The platforms of the 7 Line at Times Square are about 70 feet below the street. I also walked on the street from Times Square to 8th Avenue, to ensure there was no appreciable change in height above mean sea level over this block; to within 10 feet, there is not.
The platforms of the A/C/E at 8th Avenue & 42nd Street are at about 30 feet below the street. Of course, I could not go down to the lower level at this station, but typical depths for stacked stations are 15 feet per level. Even adding a few feet, it would put the lower level of this station at 50 feet below street level.
Thus, it appears as though the western end of the Corona IRT Line is about 20 feet deeper than the 8th Avenue IND, and thus from this perspective, the IND is not "blocking" the westward extension of the IRT. Of course, there may be other things in the way, such as utilities and bedrock...
But that, Regis, is my FINAL ANSWER.
I am surprised to hear that it is only 15 feet per level in most places. However, it seems reasonable to assume that the difference in elevation at 42nd Street is typical. If you're really bored some day you might measure the difference at 50th Street and 8th Ave. Your answer does depend on one other unspoken assumption: that the tracks West of the 7 platform run at a constant elevation all the way to the buffers. Of course, even if they do have a slight upgrade now, how hard could it be to dig them out enough to run level or slightly down?
Fifteen feet is indeed typical. It doesn't sound like that much, but remember that 10-12 feet is the average height between floors in a building.
I've measured many stations around the system, and the interesting ones are incorporated into the Line-by-Line descriptions on the site.
I believe the question is whether or not there are diesel tanks under the PABT that would have to be removed.
Now the next question -- can the shuttle be extended east, to make a full underground version of the oft debated 42nd St light rail line? It certainly seems like it could be run over the Lexington Avenue line. The real questions are whether it could be placed between the support pillars of the station above, whether it could be supported from below, and whether circulation could be arranged around it.
I think the shuttle tracks are at the same grade as the Lexington Ave. line, so a deeper tunnel would have to be built. If possible, a shuttle train from 1st. Ave (United Nations) over to the Jacob Javits Convention center would be a good idea. However, another problem would exist crossing the new line under the Bway IRT at Times Sq.
(Shuttle from the U.N. through Javits)
The light rail proposal had more frequent service in the heart of Midtown -- Third Avenue to 8th Avenue -- and less frequent service out on the ends. A two service subway could work the same way -- the shuttle would end at Times Square, the #7 would start at Grand Central, and the two would overlap in between.
The shuttle is indeed at a higher grade than the Lex. I went and looked, and a prior thread provided a historical reason (I forget what it was). One question -- is the shuttle outside Grand Central and under 42nd Street? Does it end north of 42nd Street in Grand Central? Or does Grand Central extend under 42nd Street?
Actually, if you connect from the shuttle to the Lex, the shuttle is at the same level is the passageway (never-used station), which in turn connects to the grade of the Lexington mezzanine. I don't think that there's much of a slope in the walkway. If an LR system was built, it would have to cut the mezzanine in half.
The shuttle, as it was once part of the IRT mainline (1904-1918), is under 42nd.
Here's something I always wondered, why is 42nd Street wide? Why are the wide streets where they are?
The slope can be deceiving. When we did landscaping at my parents house to correct drainage problems we discovered that there was a 15 foot drop from the front of the property to the back. There is no way you'd guess that from looking at it... people guessed 2 or 3 at most. I don't know what the slope is but the shuttle tracks used to continue south under Park Avenue so the walkway either goes up or the tracks go down, or both...
(Whey wide streets)
The 1811 grid plan laid out wide streets every few blocks, along with wide avenues. Almost all of Manhattan north of Houston was built out under this plan.
But there doesn't seem to be a defined pattern as to which streets were the wide ones. Why 14, 23, 34, 42, 57, etc? It seems to have something to do with where Broadway intersects with the avenues, but it's still not consistent in that respect.
If you mean they are not evenly spaced, you are right. Neither are 72nd, 86th, 96th, etc. Must of had something to do with conditions in 1811
It makes sense by the time it gets to 72nd, somewhat. 72nd Is where Broadway meets Amsterdam, and 79 seems to be where Broadway pulls in parallel to West End Avenue. 86th is the same distance from 79 as 72 is from it. Then it goes by 10 (96, 106, 116) before 125, and continues by 10. Now where 181 comes in I have no idea. Why isn't there a two way cross street near Lincoln Square? Why do the Central Park transverses connect to 86 and 96 the way they do?
But many of these streets are off by one. For instance, Broadway most definitely crosses Amsterdam at 71st, not 72nd. And Broadway becomes parallel to the avenues at 78th. As for 106th, that's where Broadway meets West End. And 110th is also a wide street, at least on the West Side.
The transverses were originally W66-E66, W79(?)-E79, W86-E85, and W97-E97, all two-way. (I think that's right.) They were later adjusted for easier access to and from one-way streets. Notice also that W. 97th is wide between CPW and Columbus and that it could be wide between Columbus and Amsterdam (the building line is set back, but the sidewalk is wide rather than the street itself) -- this, I assume, came with the housing projects in the area.
But there doesn't seem to be a defined pattern as to which streets were the wide ones. Why 14,
23, 34, 42, 57, etc? It seems to have something to do with where Broadway intersects with the
avenues, but it's still not consistent in that respect.
In what way is it inconsistent? That was precisely the criterion
for making the wide crosstown streets. Don't forget, Broadway
was there a long, long time before the grid system. A grid of
250x750 foot blocks was laid out on a map creating 12 avenues
and wherever Broadway crossed one of these theoretical avenues the
corresponding theoretical street was made theoretically larger.
It isn't even because Broadway meanders based on whatever natural
contours existed at the time.
That isn't really the way it is. In the case of Times Square, 43rd or 44th Street would make more sense. And why 57th Street? Why not 65th Street?
59 St is the really wide one. Perhaps 65 St wasn't widened because
it is so close to 59? 86 and 96 streets were probably widened
when Central Park was built.
59 is only wide along Central Park. 57 is wide the whole width of Manhattan.
Are you sure that's your final answer? You don't want to use one of your lifelines?
Seriously, if the #7 line is at a deeper grade than the lower level 42nd St. IND platform and it's not obstructing westward expansion of the #7, then what possible reason could exist for that platform to be there?
[Seriously, if the #7 line is at a deeper grade than the lower level 42nd St. IND platform and it's not obstructing westward expansion of the #7, then what possible reason could exist for that platform to
be there?]
I do not imagine that the lower level at 42nd Street was built with the deliberate intention of blocking the 7's expansion. More likely, the lower level's existence ties in with the fact that the IND was overbuilt. During the design phase, the lower level probably seemed like a good idea because it would increase capacity on the line. But when the IND actually opened, in the depths of the Depression, the lower level was no longer needed. Hence its very limited use ever since it was built.
I remember when the trains to Aqueduct left from that platform.
WINGS
Isn't the train to the right of the platform?
The tracks are on the west edge of the platform, yes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Depends which way you're standing.
Proceeding southbound, doors open on the left side - the platform is east of the trackway.
Wayne
So that means trains are to the right of the platform.
Yes, if you are facing the primary direction of traffic. The platform at lower 42nd Street/8 Avenue is to the east of the trackway.
BTW they had an R38 running wrong-direction through that station during the scene in "Ghost" filmed down there. It was going northbound. When the Aqueduct Specials used that station, did they also arrive from Aqueduct going northbound?
Wayne
Although I really don't recall, I'm not sure if the returning trains from the Big A used the lower level at 42nd Street. There was no need to use it to discharge as there was no reason for a separate fare control.
No, they discharged upstairs. The lower platform was used only for southbound traffic.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Specials returning from Aqueduct ran as E trains even though they were signed as specials. They returned to Jamaica Yard after leaving 42nd St. I rode on one such train once on a Saturday in 1969 or 1970 from Broadway-Nassau to 42nd St. It was an R-1/9 train with no headlights, and it ran express along 8th Ave., turning off to the Queens line after it left 42nd St.
Since the lower level is accessible only by the southbound track from Queens, Aqueduct Specials were stored in Jamaica Yard. I would imagine they deadheaded to 42nd St.
Who's Regis?
When where the R16 trains retired
Nineteen Eighty-seven.
The last revenue service trip of the R16 was on the M line in May 1987. Some survived for a couple of years afterwards as motor cars, pulling trash trains.
As you can tell from my handle, I have an affection for these much-maligned cars.
When were the R27-30-30As retired, and scraped
They were retired in the latter part of 1992. I regretted that I could not take pictures on them before they were retired.
Chaohwa
Most of the questions that you have been asking are answered elsewhere on this site. I'd like to suggest that you take the time to read the material that Dave and a bunch of very dedicated volunteers have prepared first. Then, if you still have questions, ask! (I suspect that you will still have questions, but they will be on a far more detailed level. Much of the material that has been added to this site within the past year has been a direct result of someone asking a question here on SubTalk.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Question: Did I ask the original questions? :-P
Chaohwa
Oops, sorry about that - I had intended to attach it directly to the same post you were answering!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was wondering when the non GOH R30, and R27 cars were retired.
I did not ask correctly.
You might want to address an email directly to Wayne-MrSlantR40 since he maintains very detailed records by car number. The New York Division of the Electric Railroaders Association also publishes details about car assignments and retirements - if you live in the City and can attend their monthly meetings you might want to consider joining (I'm a member of the national but not the division since I don't live close enough to participate regularly).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If I remember correctly, only the R30A got the GOH; the R27 and R30 hit the scrap heap with less than thirty years service under their belts, which would put that date somewhere around 1988 to 1990. They weren't scrapped all at once - they were phased out. The R68A was probably the cars that actually replaced the R27 and R30 non-GOH.
Wayne
Nope. Me and my siblings replaced the R10s.
The R30's were never replaced. That's why we have a car shortage. The R68's replaced the R10 & R16 fleets and the R27-30 cars that were not GOH'd.
Yes. Refer to my post #99650 made today at 1308 PM
Not only that, but before GOH there was a lot more "down" time for cars. The yards were full of cars that weren't road worthy. We used to wait for hours at a time to enter every yard because of no track space availiable! Figure this: when I was hired in 1979 there were close to 400 R10's, 200 R16's and 550 R27/30's on the property. Granted some were scrapped and off the property, yet many others were out of service long term (esp. the R16's). Now with those 1150 cars gone, they were replaced by 625 R68/68A's. Even taking into account 10 old cars is equal to 8 new ones, there still has been a significant reduction in the number of cars on the roster for the B Division. Scrapping those R27/30's was a grave error since that Queens extension will be ready for service long before the R143's will even be on the property! Of course, the death sentence for the R27/30 was their lack of air conditioning. Installing it would have been too costly and made the cars too heavy. I miss operating those cars, even 8412 to 8569 with their heavy controllers! Many of the Redbird TA overhauled R30's (8250 to 8411) wound up in the R36 Flushing cars.
When I hit the road as a motorman around 10/81, the R44's were, for the most part out of service as well for reliability problems. I worked the A once in a while and only one would be running, if that! By that time they were off the D and out of Queens. Eventually they came back when the R46's were put on restricted duty a year later.
I think you meant to say that the R-36s got the new controllers which had been installed on the R-30s.
You're right: installing A/C on the R-30s would have increased their weight to BMT standard proportions.
I rode an R30 on the C line in January 1993. I would assume the R30's were yanked when the weather got warm, as they had no AC.
02/26/2000
I remember those R-16 (M)'s laid up on the West End center track in the late 80's. They were graffittied & dirty, a sad end to a much maligned car order that opened service to the Rockaways.
Bill Newkirk
I wonder when will the Christie Street connection between Broad-Lafayette St and Essex will reopen again in the future.
Is that a question or a statement?
Probably never. There's no outcry for Bway Brooklyn/6th Ave. service to be restored.
i was also thinking that they could put a S shuttle train along 6 Avenue down to Essex St that would be a goog idea for a new service. (just a though)
02/26/2000
From a railfan window of a (J),(M) or (Z), the tracks don't look to shiny on the connection. I wonder if that tunnel is a homeless hideout ?
Bill Newkirk
I bet it hasn't been used since 1988. I remember that the Sixth Ave shuttle had R30's based in ENY and they were sent through this connection for repairs.
I'll bet it HAS been used since 1988. It's used for non-revenue moves all the time.
David
There's been no outcry for Broadway (Brooklyn)-to-6th-Av because nobody outside this group remembers that the connection exists.
That's part of it. It's been almost 25 years since it was used. However, logistically, no such service can be run today.
Sure it can. Just discontinue something else.
Apparently "Law and Order" wants to film another episode about a subway crime. They have requested a train of R-68s for the subway scenes. Since they usually base episodes on real incidents, any guess what crime they intend to portyay? (Kendra Webdale, perhaps?)
(To beat the detractors to the punch, NO, this will not be a slow moving episode!)
I wonder why they requested R68's? Almost every subway scene I've seen on TC happens in R32, R38 or R42 cars. In fact, a previous episode of "L&O" used a disguised PATH train.
(To beat the detractors to the punch, NO, this will not be a slow moving episode!)
You're right ... it will be stationary, if not in reverse. :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Rim shot!
>(To beat the detractors to the punch, NO, this will not be a slow
>moving episode!)
Ahh, but will all the dialog be in French?
Oui! Oui!
Not if they use the Alsthom R68s as opposed to the Jeumont-Schneiders.
I wonder if they're planning to recreate the 23rd Street pushing incident - the thought of that gives me the willies.
Wayne
But aren't they all built by the ever popular "ANF Industrie"?
Or is it Westinghouse Amrail corpoartion.
Ok, is it me, or is the builder's plate for the 68's the most confusing of the current stock?
L&O is generally a good show, though I do think they get a little too heavy with their recreations. Anyway, I always try to catch the show after the crime happens so I can watch them put it together
No. The R68s contract was given to Westinghouse-Amrail. The standard order 225 cars (2500-2724) were given to the sub-contractor Jeumont-Schneider. The option order (2725-2924) was given to sub-contractor Alsthom.
I smell AdTranz in there somewhere - PHOOEY!
Thanks for the info regarding the range of #'s for the Jeumonts and the Alsthoms - I wasn't sure where one batch ended and the other began, I will annotate my numbers book accordingly.
Wayne
Any idea when the episode will air? Or what cars?
What cars?? They will be 2800 and up for technical reasons. As for when, no! I do know whent he filming will take place over 2 afternoons. I'm gonna offer myself as an extra to play Angie Harmon's "Significant Other" who works for the TA.
Seems interesting, especially with the NYCT's recent aversion to portrayal of crime on the system, which why the last L&O episode featuring a crime on the subway used the relettered PATH cars.
02/26/2000
Well, R-68's were used for the HBO movie "Subway Stories". Maybe Hollyweed likes R-68's.
Bill Newkirk
And Hollywood adores them. But, you know they all LOVE R68As
There was a short thread about this book some weeks ago which prompted me to purchase a used copy. I have just finished reading it, and found it informative and disappointing at the same time. The author discusses things that all Brooklynites love like Coney Island, the Dodgers, candy stores and stickball. He goes into great detail about some neighborhoods, but completely ignores others. If it wasn't for the map on page 38, I would not have even thought I was a part of Brooklyn. If you grew up in one of the neighborhoods that are discussed you should love the book, if not, you'll be as disappointed as I was. I was expecting much more coverage on Brooklyn's public transit which was just not there either. I plan on passing my copy on to a old friend whose neighborhood got quite a bit more coverage.
Karl, you make a good point there.
It is my experience that writers who do books about Brooklyn primarily focus on their own neighborhood of their youth, and not the borough as a whole. I wouldn't mind it so much except alot of these books are marketed as being borough-wide inclusive or have 'Brooklyn' in their title even though the subject matter may concern just one specific neighborhood like Flatbush or Coney Island.
Only recently have I been seeing books on Brooklyn that are specifically marketed regarding the neighborhood themes. For instance the Transit Museum (Brooklyn branch) has a new book on Park Slope (with some very good photos I might add) and Sheepshead Bay, as well as a book on Bedford-Stuyvesant in it's heyday and it's current resurgence as a brownstone community. Alot of these newer books are being released by Brian Merlis and Israelowitz Publishing. They have done a number of Brooklyn-related books in the past most notably, "Welcome Back to Brooklyn."
Doug aka BMTman
I pick up a Book last June in Barnes and Noble called BROOKLYN NEIGHBORHOODS. It covers all of them. Even sub communities that did not exist when I was a kid.
Yeah, that one is the exception. John Manbeck -- an acqaintance of mine and a heck of a funny guy -- co-wrote that one.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug,
Thanks for the lead and the book title. I will see if I can find out more about it
>>> Alot of
these newer books are being released by Brian Merlis and Israelowitz Publishing. They have done a
number of Brooklyn-related books in the past most notably, "Welcome Back to Brooklyn." <<<
I am told they're doing Bay Ridge, my old neighborhood next.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, I hope they make the rounds of all of Brooklyn's neighborhoods. That is a great idea.
(A great idea for Merlis & Co. would be to offer them as a volumed set -- each individual neighborhood being a different volume.)
Doug aka BMTman
Karl,
Have you checked out the Brooklyn Board website? It's a bulletin board, similar to Subtalk, devoted to discussions about Brooklyn. There are also similar bulletin boards for Queens, Manhattan and the Bronx.
Thanks for the website. I have checked it out, and also bookmarked it, to look at it further later.
I thought the book was a pretty good, if anecdotal, history of the borough. It was a short book, and Park Slope and Windsor Terrace were barely touched on, so it can't be looked to as a history of any one place. Some neighborhoods get more play, but only as examples of larger trends.
There is a whole chapter on the subway, and the way it led to the development of the southern rim of the borough, beyond the old Els. The interesting idea is that suburbanization and urban flight happened within Brooklyn before it happened to Brooklyn in general.
For the R142s East 180 Street Yard has to be renovated so it will be able to maintain and service them. Now, being East New York Yard is where the L Line is based, will East New York Yard or any yard for the matter have to be renovated as well?
East NY was re-built just a few years ago.
I've got my ticket. Are any other 'talkers going? If so, we should arrange to hook up.
I have not seen any posts from Steve K., the MTA Mgmt. person lately? Where did he go?
Change of handle ... he's now Train Dude.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, sort of. "Train Dude" is the handle formerly known as "Steve."
"Steve K." is someone else (and a fellow Branford member) but I
haven't seen a post from him recently.
Alot of guys have appeared to have "fallen by the wayside" since the PASSWORD feature was initiated.
Alot of the usual SubTalk crew are missing.
Has anyone else noticed this?
Hopefully, they'll return.
Doug aka BMTman
The Steve I was referring to is indeed Train Dude
As for the use of passwords, Dave Pirmann had some VERY good reasons to initiate a password system on this board. BTW, Lets hear more "tech/mech" discussions about subway cars on this board. I have a lot to learn.
I agree about the tech stuff as well as the labor/political side. It seems that we've been sidetracked by a few wannabe comedians and pranksters.
The comedy is OK. It's the pranks and the irrelevant politics that I can't tolerate.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK, I get confused, especially since both of their last names start with K.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, the Train Dude didn't say if he is the Steve K. this post is about, but the real Steve K. is alive and well .... as evidenced by the Feb issue of the Shoreline at Branford "Tripper". It was reported that Steve & Jeff were working on the PCC 1001 recently.
Mr t__:^)
source- official AFC Bulletin
The cards will go on sale at 7am on 3/6/2000
(I am grouping stations to save space)
Stillwell
Bedford, Graham,Grand,Montrose,Morgan, Jefferson, DeKalb---L
Myrtle/Wyckoff-L,M
Halsey-J,L
Wilson, Bushwick(-Aberdeen),Atlantic,Sutter, Livonia, New Lots--L
East 105, Rockaway pkwy-L
Marcy, Hewes--J Myrtle-J,M
Lorimer(Metropolitan)-G,J,L
Kosciusko ,Gates,Chauncey-J
Central, Knickerbocker, Seneca, Forest, Fresh Pond, Metropolitan- M
East New York/Broadway Jct- A,C,J,L
Van Alst, Greenpoint, Nassau, Broadway,Flushing, Myrtle-Willoughby--G
Bedford-Nostrand, Classon, Clinton-Washington, Fulton---G.
The Bulletin does not show a pictue of this or any other promotional MetroCard and as such I do not know whether this is the same design seen before or a new design. I will post an update when I see one sicne I do work on the G Line.
Anybody Know the line assignments after the retierment of all the old 60foot cars
Although I'm sure you didn't mean it to be so, your question is meaningless for two reasons. First, some of the R-32s will be around for at least 15 more years, perhaps outlasting the R-40s and R-42s - surely outlasting the R-38s. Second, the R-143 and R-143 option cars will also be 60 feet long so we'll have 60' cars on the B division for the next 50 years.
I heard that the last of the pre 1974 cars to be retired will be the R32s in 2007, from ChrisR16.
I would agree that they will probably be the last retired - they're in much better shape than any of the other pre-'74 units. But I doubt they'll be gone in 2007 - I think we'll probably see many of them in rush hour service for a long time after that. Time will tell.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
GRANTED
It is possible that we will see them aged 50, and in service.
I never said that. I did say that by 2007, the next
B division order should be on it's way, signaling
the end for the R38's. The R32's will run until
they literally fall apart, because they are
completely made of stainless steel, and have none of
the structural rust damage that newer cars have.
My guess is that the R32 will still be hale even to 2015. They are all-stainless so nothing much can rust or corrode.
Wayne
They might challenge the all-time survival record of some of the old Hi-Vs which lasted that long.....and someone asked recently WHY TV and movies tends to use them??
The R32s were built by the Budd company, the only ones in the NYC fleet as far as I know. Is it because of their longevity that the MTA never saw fit to order more from that manufacturer?
BUDD also built the ten-car R11 order, in 1950. Those and the R32s were the only Budd cars NYCT ever had.
Wayne
Also Budd went out of the subway car building business in the late 60s/early 70s, and then went out of business completely
It was later than the 1970s. Budd built subway cars for Baltimore and Miami (to the same basic specifications) ca. 1983, and also built the M-3/M-3As for LIRR and Metro-North around the same time.
Budd was building cars up to 1982-83, as Baltimore and Miami both got cars from Budd. MTA in Baltimore had a followup order from Transit America to top off the subway's fleet in 1985-85.
Budd also built the 2600-series L cars for Chicago in the early 80s. They submitted a bid for new South Shore cars during that same time frame, but the contract went to, IIRC, Sumitomo in Japan.
I don't think the Budd Co. went out of business completely. Just the railcar part of it. I used to work for the Budd Co. -Trailer
division in the late 70's and up to 1984. Alas, that's gone ,too. I would have loved to draw trailers in Autocad, and finally in Solid Works, ( a 3-d modeling program. ) I remember they converted to "Transit-America" up on Red Lion road in Philadelphia.
Chuck Greene
Budd also built the stainless steel m.s. units for the bmt.
They also Built the M1s for the lirr.
The BMT MS units were made of stainless steel? Then what was the reason that they were scrapped so quickly?
Only 1 train. it was scrapped in 1959
That would have been the Zephyr experimental unit. The multis were built by Pullman and St. Louis Car Co., and were non-stainless steel.
It was the Zephyr that I was talking about.
10-4.
Budd built the LIRR's M-1's in the late 60's
Three of the Gibbs Hi-Vs remained in service for 53 years. That's the record for steel subway equipment. The R-32s will challenge that, I'm sure.
Sorry, but the record for steel subway equipment belongs to the City of Brotherly Love. The Brill cars built in 1928 for the Broad Street Subway lasted until 1982 - that's 54 years by my count.
Sorry, IRT
I was referring to New York steel subway equipment, but thanks for the info, anyway. Some of Chicago's 4000-series all-steel L cars also logged 50+ years.
Yeah, except 3422/23! These Phase II Jamica cars, I feel, have big problems! Where are you TrainMaster 7 Steve? I would like to E Mail you on this, and maybe you can pass it on to somebody in Jamaica Yard! There is an intermittant problem with these cars going BIE with no cause found many times since I've been on the E since last May! And these I know about. How many times has it happened when I'm not working! Several times in August n/b entering Continental Ave. in the same spot, coming back from Euclid one night between Hoyt & Jay, 2 on my trains this pick alone: one entering 23/Ely s/b and one outside Kew Gardens s/b on Valentines Day. Another one last Thursday entering Lex/53 n/b around 3:50 PM. Messed up the whole PM rush! And it doesn't matter if one is in lead car or inside the consist! While part of the train operators' job is walking around trains when a BIE occurs, it cause big delays and is downright dangerous due to close clearance conditions, third rails and other trains on adjacent tracks. Help! We don't like walking around the same cars all the time!
Is it just these two units or are there others causing problems?
Steve's out there, contributing regularly. Just look for posts by "Train Dude" and that's him.
Wayne
I think that pair are the culprits because many times I hear of a BIE (brakes in emergency) and as I said 2 of mine this pick with no cause found, that pair of cars are part of the consist. Too many coincidences.
I will refer this to the General Supt of jamaica Shop tonight. I'll post a followup ASAP too. It really shouldn't matter where the car is in te train. If there is a failure that causes the EMV wire to be energized, the train will go into emergency.
EMV Wire-- Emergency Magnet Valve? this wire is trainlined and trips magnet valves in each car to instantly propagate BIE?
John J. Blair
That is exactly correct but it's not as direct as one might think. There is no button that one can push that electrically puts the train into emergency. Instead the EMV circuit works in this way. When the brakepipe air is exhausted to atmosphere in any car (either via the 'pilot valve' [aka deadmans], the brake valve, conductors emergency valve or a tripcock, there is a device called the "Emergency Contactor" or "Emergency Pressure Switch" which is activated or de-activated when the brakepipe pressure is above or below 90 PSI. This controls Motorman's indication, electric brake, controller B+ and the EMV circuit. When one car is placed into emergency, the contactor drops out. This opens the motorman's indication circuit,the trainline 'release' wire and the CB+ that supplies the propulsion package. At the same time, it closes the EMV circuit causing all EMVs on the train to instantaneously dump the brakepipe air. If this didn't happen, the train would still go into emergency but would take 1 - 3 seconds as the train went into emergency, car by car.
Wouldn't it be safer to have the "EMV" wire always _on_ rather than off, so if there were a loss of circuit continutity, the system would be failsafe. Like in signals where the tracks realys are normally energized, and then shunted by trains...
dave
Thank you, Train Dude.
Sorry.
Once all of the 142 and 143 cars(including 142A and 143A) are on the scene, what will be the assignments for A and B Division.
I can only say that the R-142A will be assigned to #6 line. I suppose that the 2, 4 & 5 will have R-142s but R-62As can always be moved over the the #4 line to replace the redbirds there, That might put R-142s on the #3, which makes a certain amount of logistic sense.
R-143s will be used on the L line and the M line. There was some talk that they may debut on the Queens Blvd line but it's little more than speculation at this point.
>R-62As can always be moved over the the #4 line to replace the redbirds there,
This is what they plan to do
>That might put R-142s on the #3, which makes a certain amount of logistic sense.
No, the 3 is going to get the rest of the 6's R-62's to make up 10-car trains.
Are their plans to lengthen the 145th St. station? If not, 10 car trains on the #3 are impossible.
It's not 145. There are some tracks in the Lenox Yard which are too short. 145 is as long as South Ferry.
I wonder why this problem wasn't rectified years ago.
No, don't think so. They get by as it is with the short station there, just like they do on the 1/9 at South Ferry. They'd be wise to start doing some renovations, though; it seems to be falling apart a little at a time. Even some of the cartouches and tulip borders have cracks in them. And that exit passageway from the N/B platform! It looks like a medieval dungeon.
Wayne
We don't want 145th St. to become another Chambers St. now, do we?
I wonder what will happen when the R143's are delivered and put into service on the L line and replacing the R40-42's(What will they do with the R40-42's will they transfer it to another line or will they just retired.)
They will not be retired - the R143s are all additional cars, not replacements.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd have to go by per capita income -- if you eliminate the Eastern Division, which lines serve the poorest neighborhoods. First, all newer cars would be removed from the J/Z/M, although I'm not sure there are any. Can't do the Astoria line -- Vallone is there. That leaves the A/C and the B/D, with new cars from those lines shifted to the Queens line.
Alternately, the cars could be put on the Queens Line rush hours only, in the hopes that Queens riders are happy to have the extra service and don't complain about the cars.
Once the R46 truck problems were fixed in 1981-2, it was Donald Manes's power which forced the TA to have every single one of them assigned to the E, F and then N (now R) line. The current assignement of the R46 to Jamaica is his lasting legacy.
[They (R40/R42) will not be retired - the R143s are all additional cars, not replacements.]
This ties in with the ongoing thread about the R30's. There is a shortage of B-division cars largely because the R30's were scrapped before the ends of their useful lives and, most of all, before any replacements were ready.* As a result, the new cars are merely going to get the total roster back to where it should have been all along.
* = I don't know if the R143's had even been ordered when the R30's were scrapped.
The R-30s were scrapped long before the R-143s were ordered, in a time of declining ridership.
David
I doubt that declining ridership was the reason the R30's were scrapped in 1993. At that time, they new the introduction of the Metrocard and the elimination of 2-fare zones were already planned, and they new ridership would increase. However, they never anticipated it would increase as much as it did. Would it have been to hard to just mothball 80-100 of the R30's, just so they were there if needed?
There was a plan to keep some (60 or so, I think) of the R-30s in long-term storage "just in case," but it never happened.
David
That's 7 extra L trains that could be added during the rush hours. Dumb, dumb, dumb ...
You have to put yourself in the TA's shoes. Riders want lower fares. Taxpayers want lower subsidies and taxes. Workers want higher wages. The result -- figure out a way to move people around as cheaply as possible.
In the early 1990s, I attended a meeting in which federal officials objected to funding transportation studies in the city, on the grounds that it would surely follow all other cities into terminal decline. Shouldn't we be planning for planned shrinkage a la Detroit? In that environment, no wonder the R30s were scrapped.
[In the early 1990s, I attended a meeting in which federal officials objected to funding transportation studies in the city, on the
grounds that it would surely follow all other cities into terminal decline. Shouldn't we be planning for planned shrinkage a la Detroit? In that environment, no wonder the R30s were scrapped.]
I can more or less understand that reasoning. Given the conditions in the early 1990's, it wouldn't have been easy to foresee a turnaround in the city's fortunes - and therefore in transit ridership. Even so, it was a mistake not to have mothballed some R30's just in case conditions changed.
Perhaps this will teach the MTA to plan ahead for once. when the R38's get retired, perhaps some of them might get mothballed.
And to think they did mothball a group of R-16s a few years earlier. That move paid off when the R-46s had the truck cracking problem.
Those 110 R-10s could have been mothballed as well.
They are expected to be given to the N Line last I heard. The R4x from the M Line will be given to the N Line. The B and Q will re-swap cars and the Q will get the R68s from the N Line. Soo...
B - R40
M - R42,R143
N - R32,R40,R42
Q - R68,R68A (Where they belong!!!)
That's just GREAT! Not only will they ruin the railfan view on the Brighton express but they'll shave about 15MPH off the top speed. FOOEY! Don't they ever learn?
Well, at least we can get a nice ride from 36th to Pacific plus a railfan view of a rather dark tunnel.
Wayne
Don't feel so bad. My source...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/bmt2001.htm
says that it might change. Hey! I'd rather have R68s and R68As on the Brighton Express.
That particular page is just an educated guess. Nothing official about it. It was also published before the car swap in 10/97. Since the H Manhattan Bridge tracks will probably be closed at the same time, or even before the 63rd. St. connector opens for service, the running of Q trains to Forest Hills is unlikely to happen.
Unlikely to Forest Hills. My guess is that once the 63rd St. connection opens and regardless of the Manhattan Bridge situation, the Q will be running exp. to Jamaica 15/5 or 15/7, replacing the F, which will be using the same connection as 6th Av. Loc., Queens Loc., 24/7.
I really doubt the F will be taken off the 53rd. St. line. It will remain an express, IMO.
THE FEEL GOOD TRAIN OF THE DECADE
Oh yes, like the R-68 really travels at 25 MPH. I rode the Brighton Express back when it was comfortable and got to see the speedometer, which hovered in the area of 40 between Newkirk and Kings Highway.
Ever since the R-40s moved in to the Brighton, I had to ride the D every morning, until I switched to the IRT. Even when I got to Sheepshead Bay, that was often still not enough, as the R-40 is ridiculously uncomfortable. Most bench trains are, but the R-40 more so.
But on a slant, who's sitting? Not me!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Agreed! When on an R40, I NEVER sit. My lower back can't tolerate those seats and they are as slippery as elms to boot; you slide right off of them. I can be found up front enjoying the view, even underground. The Slant R40 seats are the PITS. Only ones worse were the R-7A/R-9 fiberglass benches (murder on the sacroiliac - oh, the PAIN!), and, of course, the bottomless seats on the (thankfully, now-departed) LIRR MP-75s.
wayne
Do what I do...stand and look out the RAILFAN WINDOW!!!!!
David
I can stand as much as I want in the afternoon, but I will not tolerate standing in the morning. When I would take the Q (and later, D), instead of taking the IRT from Atlantic, I would take the A or C from West 4th because if I would stand, it would be only 2 or 3 stops.
I stand on subway trains 99.9% of the time regardless of the equipment. Never have sat in a slant R-40.
I find the front view dull and monotonous, especially in a tunnel, where the side window is even worse, but it isn't worth it anyway. It's a lot more interesting out in the open, but it's still more boring than the side view, except when going through a yard, where the mass of tracks makes it fun. Although, there it is more fun to look out the sides and see equipment.
Actually, the side view in a tunnel can be interesting, what with the strobe effects being generated by I-beams when passing tunnel lights. And on the Contract One IRT line, you can see trains passing in the opposite direction, since there is no crash wall anywhere.
I still like the railfan window view best, especially in the good old days with a headlight-less prewar train.
For the brief time that R44s were on the D (around 1973), I saw the speedometer hit 46 mph on the same stretch. 45 mph is supposedly the upper limit for subway equipment, but I suppose this is surpassed significantly in the opposite direction, going downhill toward Newkirk Av. (without a GT).
R40 #4314 did 48MPH between Ave.J and Ave.H back on 3/15/1999 - Simon Billis is my witness as he was there with me. We passed not one, not two, but THREE "D"s between Brighton Beach and Prospect Park.
They're fast, all right.
Wayne
Have you checked or know of anyone who checked the A train speed between Howard Beach and Broad Channel? That's a 3 mi straight, open stretch.
The same thing would have happened if the trains were reversed.
Field shunting was still in vogue back in 1973. Plus the R-44s were built for 70 mph speeds. I'm not saying that trains should be sped up to 70 mph (although that would be nice), but couldn't they be souped up by perhaps 5 mph? It's getting ridiculous.
I was on a "B" of R68s back in December. It was abysmally slow, especially in the express stretch north of 36th Street, where we failed to make even 35 under a full green. An "R" local of R46s passed us between Prospect and 9th Street and beat us to Pacific. That's not fun at all. Last time I had R68 equipment on the "Q" was in 1996 - R68A #5102. It wasn't bad (I believe we topped out about 42MPH) but the R40s are generally faster.
Nothing against the R68/R68A per se.....they'll just never win a race with an R40, that's all.
Wayne
[Nothing against the R68/R68A per se.....they'll just never win a race with an R40, that's all.]
Or with a snail.
40MPH is 40MPH, either on a R1, 40, 68 or a Car, it is still the same speed,
Yes, 40 MPH is 40 MPH. However, the time it takes to GET to 40 MPH varies from car class to car class. The R-68s will GET to 40 MPH, but by the time they do, it's often time to slow down for the next station stop.
David
>>>>Even when I got to Sheepshead Bay, that was often still not enough, as the R-40 is ridiculously
uncomfortable. Most bench trains are, but the R-40 more so. <<<
Don't agree. I find the buckets, as on the 46 and 68, more uncomfortable, and, er, I don't have any more extra room back there than the average NYer.
I was on a Triplex a couple of years ago on a fantrip. Jeez, people were little back in the 20s.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Or maybe their tushes were smaller back then.-)
15 mph? I don't think so. I usually ride R68As through 4th Avenue express. Today (02/26/00) I was on a R40 through the same tunnel. I couldn't feel any difference.
The R68's can compete for speed with other cars on this particular section of track because a gentle sloping grade gives all subway cars a boost from the force of gravity. If the R40 and R68 were to race each other on a perfectly level track, the R40 would leave the R68 in the dust.
>>>B - R40
M - R42,R143
N - R32,R40,R42
Q - R68,R68A (Where they belong!!!) <<<
Why DO the R68s "belong" on the Q? There was a big hue and cry when the B and Q swapped cars, and from what I gather some Q riders were outraged that the B got the 68s.
Why are the 68s considered to be better, and why, consequently, do the Q riders believe themselves deserving of the "better" cars?
Personally, I like the R40s better...more butt room and iceboxlike AC in the summer.
www.forgotten-ny.com
ID
Every person wants the best for themselves. It's obvious therefore that the R-68 is the best.
>>>It's obvious therefore that the R-68 is the best. <<<
OK...why? Why are the 68s the best? Gimme a little information here...
www.forgotten-ny.com
The R32 Brightliners were the most beautiful. Must have been colorblind people who had their interiors painted beige. The interiors were originally sky blue with yellowing lettering. Outside dark blue doors and gleaming stainless steel. Gleaming, that is, until they began sharing the IND tunnels with the smoking R1 cattle cars in 1967. If they had had A/C back then, they would be the best.
ALL GOH'd cars got the same treatment - R32, R38, R40, R42. I don't care much for that Sand Yellow (that IS the correct color for it) interior either - they could have chosen a better color for it (light blue, anyone?). Oddly enough, it doesn't look to bad on the R38 - I guess the backlit signs give it a warm appearance. They should have done the same with the R32 instead of cutting corners.
The R32 STILL looks good, even at the age of 35.
Wayne
They aren't. They are the newest and some people must thing that means their better. The R40 has advantages over the R68, including 8 extra doors per train, making dwell times at stations much less. The speed advantages are well known.
SITARD
The R-68 has 120 more seats per train, the end seats have a better end thing which also adds an extra vertical pole (can't beat an R-44 though) and in addition to that has more vertical poles.
The walls also look nicer, scratched up or not, but it can't beat the R-44/46.
I hear the BMT Standard was the king of seats. Someone should bring back that design and add air conditioning.
If people want seats, let 'em ride the D. The extra doors are advantagous to the Q, as most Brighton line riders cram themselves onto that line for the whopping 2 minute advantage it has over the D line in getting to Manhattan.
Two from Church or Newkirk Av. Five from Kings Highway. Check the schedule.
Screw the schedule. I'm referring to the real world. All advantages that a Brighton express train gives you becomes moot when the trains reach Dekalb and merge with the B. Trains slow down and back up. In real time, you'd only save about 2 minutes if you took the Q express from Sheepshead Bay to 42nd St. over the D going local.
It may be more psychological, knowing that an express isn't going to stop at every station. That's one reason I'm such an express addict.
Noooooo.................... they both have the same amount of doors. 16!!!
I think Chris meant more doors per train consist on the R-40s. This would be correct. The R-40s, since they are 10-cars, have 40 doors per side while the R-68s, since they run in 8 car consists, have 32 doors per side..
If you stood at Atlantic Ave. during the morning rush, you'd see the advantage that the extra 8 doors gives the Q line. It dwells for a shorter period than the D.
Oh I see.
Well, everybody wants the best for themselves. Most people wanted the R-68. Therefore, the R-68 is the best. Only the minority feels otherwise.
A few, vocal Brighton Line riders complained about the switch. Evidently they preferred forward-facing seats and door chimes to reliability and speed.
David
The R-68 apparently, at least according to Train Dude, is more reliable. And really, how much speed do you gain? the difference is negligible.
MDBF, November 1999 (I've seen December, but I don't have it handy):
R-40: 227,640
R-68: 94,337
(R-68A: 75,179)
12-month moving average, December 1998-November 1999:
R-40: 101,843
R-68: 95,313
(R-68A: 100,757)
Wanna run those opinions about reliability by me again?
David
The MDBF for the R-40s should prove that the Manager that unilaterally moved them from the B to the Q knew exactly what he was doing. This, despite the Pols., civic leaders and 'operations planning'.
I guess we can factor #4191's blown brake hose out of the equation for December's MDBF - that was obviously the exception rather than the norm.
Slants - you can say what you want about them but the numbers speak for themselves.
Pigs of R.I. mentioned resurrecting the BMT Standard seating design. How would that work, replace one row of two window seats in an R68 with a row of three? I thought that the seat jutting out into the aisle was rather unwieldy the several times I rode the Standards.
wayne
The Triplexes had lots of seats as did the BMT standards. It has been said that there were howls of protest when the R-32s began taking over for the Triplexes on the Brighton line in 1964 - not because of the R-32s per se, but because of reduced seating. That and perhaps the Q/Broadway marking; the R-32s no longer carried the old Southern Division titles the way the R-27s and R-30s did.
The slant R-40s are perfect for the Q because they get a well-deserved rest during nights and weekends. Now, if the Q were to begin running 24/7 or on weekends as well....
The present assignment of the R40 to the Q and R68 to the B makes total sense. I haven't heard a single Brighton line rider whine that the Q line lost it's R68's since the initial changeover 2+ years ago.
I'll take the forward facing seats. I was so used to that when I married into the Eastern Div, which may never see forward facing seats again (dropped on all new car orders for the foreseeable future.)
It would be interesting to take the ride over the Willy B and out onto Myrtle with a good side view without having to sit with my right leg scrunched up on the seat or stand to look out the window.
I wish they would still consider testing 75 footers on the M since one of the curves has been rebuilt. Also, the 110B, which only runs 6 cars now anyway (could be used to prepare Eastern div. crews and shops for the new cars).
This is one of the reasons I liked the R16's. When they went, the foward facing seats went with them.
What is the distance between trucks on the R-110Bs? If it's greater than 47 feet, which was the distance on the BMT standards, you're back to Square One.
[Personally, I like the R40s better...more butt room and iceboxlike AC in the summer.]
As far as I'm concerned, the absolute best AC is on the R32's.
The R40s are a close second to the R32s when it comes to A/C. Both can get VERY cold in the summer. Not so with the R38s and the R42s - they don't seem to be quite as cold as the R32 and R40, not sure why.
Wayne
Something funny was done to the slant R-40s a couple of years ago. Mats were installed, blocking the return air intakes in the low ceilings. Anyone know why?
David
>>>As far as I'm concerned, the absolute best AC is on the R32's. <<<
True, the AC on the 32s is awesome. I saw a newly cleaned R32 on the N the other day and it was glistening.
Now, if they could deign to run the Ns to Queens on the weekend...
www.forgotten-ny.com
That's music to my ears - gleaming R-32s on the N. Takes me all the way back to July 21, 1965, in fact. Now, if only their side destination signs could be backlit in green once again... If only the N could run express in Manhattan once again....
My all-time favorite subway picture is the Q R32 #3359 at Brighton Beach with sunset behind apartment buildings of Coney Island, taken in October 1964, presented at this website. When the R32s overwent general overhaul, why did it have to be at the expense of the backlit side destination signs, front designation signs, blue interior, etc.?
Doesn't the B need a small number of R68 or R68As to do the nightly West End OPTO Shuttle?
Can a six-car set of R40Slants be operated on OPTO, and based on the current usage of R68As on the B, does it not use only one 4-car set on the B Shuttle?
Nick
NOT QUITE LUCKY
When the B had the R-40, they had a couple of R-68A trains that were split up for OPTO. And if they didn't, they could just borrow from the not running nightly Q.
[Can a six-car set of R40Slants be operated on OPTO]
Slants cannot be used for OPTO because they lack full-width cabs.
Although I'm not certain, I've heard from fairly reliable sources that the R68A cars will remain on the B line for the forseeable future, as will the R40 slants on the Q. There is no need to swap them, and the older cars belong on a part time line anyway. This could all change based on whatever service plan for the reopening of the H Manhattan Bridge tracks will be.
R-68s on the Q again?!?
Ooohhhhhhhhh nooooooooooooooo.
Relax, it's not happening anytime soon, if ever.
R68s on the "Q" indeed! Bhleccch! Phooey! Ptui! Then you'll have 30MPH Alsthom/AdTranz expresses racing Jeumont-Schneider locals up the Brighton line - a turtle derby if there ever was one. What are they thinking - make EVERYBODY late for work? Leave things the way they are, thank you very much.
wayne
The R-68 if it is slower, as opposed to being subject to people's biased illusions, would only delay someone 1 or 2 minutes. If you leave your house so late, you deserve to be late and get fired.
The only reason the R-40 should stay on the Q is the dwell time. If the R-68 has 5 doors per car, it would belong on the Q, only your petty convictions would say otherwise. In 2001 the Q will no longer be a peak only service if it makes it onto Queens Boulevard (which it WILL if the MB situation remains the same). It can also be used for Brighton Express service on weekends and additional service (the B) on CPW at the same time. Then the advantage of storing up the R-40 will be GONE.
I wonder if any thought was ever given to putting five sets of doors per side on the R-44s when they were first drawn up. It probably would have helped speed up loading and unloading.
If the Q does become more than just a M-F normal-hour service, chances are the slants could be reassigned to another part time or rush hour route.
Hey, I just thought of a joke about that:
If a D train and a Q train, both of lardbuckets, were to lumber out of Sheepshead Bay at the same time, which one would get to Prospect Park first, huffing and puffing and panting?
WHO CARES?!?!?
How long would it take?
Too long!!
When the R-143s come on line, the current L line fleet will be moved to Coney island. The coney Island fleet will need to be increased by 140 cars (+ spares) for the expanded Q service to Queens. WHile those additional cars will be based at Coney island, they will be layed up in Queens.
I was watching SNL last night and I saw a burger king commercial in which a guy is siting in his apartment and he was talking to his friend about how good his apartment is, when what looks like an R62 comes flying my his window going at least 70 MPH. Dose anybody have any information on this car or what car it is?
P.S. the guy also mentions something of an 8 min headway, so i guess they did SOME research
I seem to recall a Burger King commercial a few months ago where a guy actually orders his food at a counter inside the subway car. I couldn't tell you the specific model of the car, but the doors-closing chime was very authentic.
I wonder if one of their writers is a railfan.
-- David
Chicago, IL
The older Burger King commercial that has an interior of a subway car as the fast-food restaurant, appeared to have been shot on a Canadian subway line.
The newer commercial -- with the guys in the apartment -- has what looks like a Chicago El line. The trains go whizzing by the window so fast I couldn't get a good indication of the type of cars being used (It all looked like CGI effects anyway and not real subway cars).
Doug aka BMTman
I thought I saw the MTA New York City Subway logo on one of the cars on that train. I also think that the cars were B-Div 75' cars (R-44, 46 or 68) If I ever see it again, I'd have to tape it and play it back in slow motion to see what goes flying by.
Yes, upon viewing that commercial again the other night the cars do appear to be R-68's.
I erroneously thought they were CTA cars.
Doug aka BMTman
Got to view the commercial in slow-mo the other day. The cars are R-44/46's. I could notice the LCD sign, but couldn't see what the car numbers are. It was going too fast and made the numbers blurry!
Has anyone else heard these very funny radio spots advocating the use of public transportation in New Jersey?
One guy is doing a Ralph Kramden and the other is doing a very good Ed Norton. Ralph is trying to reason with Ed about the virtues of using mass transit to help save the environment and Norton says that it's the 1950's so they don't have to worry about the environment yet. It's rather cute.
I originally heard it on WINS-NEWS, but it is making the rounds on other stations.
Doug aka BMTman
Couldn't you have lied and said that you heard it on WCBS? I hope Todd is not very upset. BANG ZOOM!
How many other lines (other than L/M and possibly J/Z and C) can possibly run R143s without complaints because they can only appear in a consist of 4 or 8 cars?
Could R143s even be used for off-peak service on some other lines, or are they exclusive to L/M? (I do know that about 1/3 of the M fleet will be R143)
Sounds like that the R143s will be kinda like "forgotten" cars, unless a small number of them appear on say the 8th Ave IND (ie, C line...A line can't possibly tolerate 8-car 60' fleets without disruption of service)...time will tell...this is hoping that the R143 does not become another maligned fleet like the R16s.
The R143 can be configured in ways to allow 10 car trains. It's about time the BMT eastern division got some new cars. I'm sick of hand-me-downs. I'd also doubt that the assignment of the R143 to the L and M lines would make them lemons like the R16's. The L line has really become a much more vital line than it was say 20 years ago. It's fitting they get brand new cars.
If they take my idea to have evening and weekend service up 6th or at least 8th Av via Chrystie St. (not good for rush hrs because of the shorter trains), then those cars would see mainline service. I' too am tired of hand-me downs, and also multiple stairway transfers to get to midtown. They should do this to expose them, rather than the plan I heard— to "break them in" on the A! (They they would be like more hand-me downs. And there probably still remains a danger of them giving up on the new signal implementation, and putting the new cars on the new 63rd St line to Queens, which has gotten a lot of the new cars first.)
Maybe not today, but I do remember seeing 8-car A trains of R-10s on Saturdays in the late 60s.
11-car fleets were used on the E/F about 45 years ago, but ever since it was reduced to either 10-car 60's or 8-car 75's, I wonder if anybody at the MTA has thought of reviving this possibility?
If the platforms can be extended 120' (at least for IND platforms), perhaps there may be speculation that R-143s can run in 12 car consists on the A/E (and possibly C) and the B/D/F/Q (but this would need to possibly close/consolidate some of the Brighton stations on the D/Q, and possibly F and B, a possible closing maybe Av H and Av J on the D, with a new Av I station in its place)
Just how far is between Newkirk Av, Av H and Av J stations between each other?
What would you do with all those R46's? They can't go to 11 or 12 cars! Extending the platforms would cause trillions, switches would have to be moved, etc., etc., etc.
No need to. The extension of the 63rd. St line will increase capacity on the Queens IND enough to make that unnecessary. The 11 car R1-9 trains that ran on the Queens IND ran at a time before the 60th St. connector was made to the Broadway BMT. Back then, the E and F were the only trains that went into Manhattan, so therefore, they'd be even more crowded than today.
The 11 car R1-9 trains that ran on the Queens IND ran at a time before the 60th St. connector was made to the Broadway BMT. Back then, the E and F were the only trains that went into Manhattan, so therefore, they'd be even more crowded than today.
11 car trains ran on the Queens Blv line after the introduction of BMT-60th St local service to Forest Hills. Service was cut back to 10 cars to save the extra conductor (public story) and possibly a car shortage caused by the extension of IND service on the Culver line.
No need to. The extension of the 63rd. St line will increase capacity on the Queens IND enough to make that unnecessary.
This is a supposition. Of all the the Queens-Manhattan services, only the Queens Blv-60th St Local (R) is running a below passenger load capacity. Riders evidently prefer the crowded E or F because it takes a more direct and faster route to where they want to go. The 63rd St connection will take an even longer route. Whether or not riders will take this new and slower train remains to be seen.
There are and were far less expensive alternatives for increasing the number of passenger load capacity than building the 63rd St connector. Going back to 11 car trains would increase capacity by 10%. Going back to operating 33 tph rather than the present 27 tph would increase capacity by 22%. Current car design is very wasteful in comparison to BMT designs. An 8-car 536' train of A/B's carried a passenger load of 2160 passengers. A 10-car 600' train of R32-R42's has a load capacity of 1450 passengers; an 8-car 600' train of R44-R68's has a load capacity of 1400 passengers. The older design had 49% greater capacity. If last two proven factors were introduced, the load capacity for the express tracks would be 82% greater than today. This figure could increase to 104%, by simply going to 9-car 603' long trains.
Doubling the passenger load capacity for the Queens Blvd expresses would reduce the passenger loads on the expresses to around 67% during rush hours. About 43% would have seats and the remainder would be standing. Currently, the cars are operating at 120% of load capacity with only 32% of the passengers sitting.
I'm going to have to dig out my video of The Wrong Man and check out a minor detail. In the scene where Henry Fonda gets off the train at what appears to be Roosevelt Ave., you can see the conductor between the first and second cars, which suggests an 11-car train. I can't recall if that train had stopped far enough along the platform for such a consist to fit in the station.
The last 11 car E/F train ran in 1957, 1 year after the 60th St. connector was built. That, plus the undesirable 2nd conductor, led to the termination of 11 car trains.
With the introduction of the 63rd. St thru service, service to Manhattan will increase by 25%. Since there is no connection with this new service at Queens Plaza, many riders will not have a chance to choose the E or F over it.
11 car trains are not feasible today. The stations have been changed and many of them aren't long enough. And the current fleet of cars makes the logistics of creating 11 car trains practically impossible.
...plus the undesirable 2nd conductor...
The 2nd conductor was very desirable, unfortuantely it turned the train into a money loser.
With the introduction of the 63rd. St thru service, service to Manhattan will increase by 25%.
A strict linear relationship between service and passenger load capacity has eroded because of NYCT management and engineering decisions. Two techniques have been employed to create the Queens Blvd crisis. The first has been to reduce the number of trains per hour by 18%; the second has been to design cars that hold 30% fewer passengers - for trains of equal length. If these two techniques were not employed, then the passenger load capacity for the Queens Blv express would be 105% greater than the current level. It also means that the capacity provided by the 63rd St tunnel could have been used to provide subway service to eastern Queens.
11 car trains are not feasible today. The stations have been changed and many of them aren't long enough. And the current fleet of cars makes the logistics of creating 11 car trains practically impossible.
All the pre-war IND stations have 660' platforms as do 179th St, the stations between and including Euclid Ave and B'way-ENY. The only problems are the newer (but not better" stations on the Archer Ave Ext, which are 615 to 630 feet long. This means that 660' foot service does not require any platform modifications, if such service were restricted to between 179th St and WTC, 2nd Ave, Euclid Ave or Church Ave.
The design of the current fleet rests entirely with NYCT. The concept of inflexibility by design is a tribute to their enlightened engineering foresight. I am confident that the same talent that provided less capability can be harnessed to provide 660' trains at reasonable cost.
Most of the 660' IND stations have had their extra space taken over by utility areas and AWDA elevators. The merger between the BMT and IND lines has made the running of 660' car trains almost impossible on almost every IND line. That, combined with the fact that the present subway fleet cannot be configured into 660' trains makes this idea impossible to implement.
BTW, the 2nd conductor on the 11 car trains in the 1950's was a hated element by TWU workers and it was a threat of a strike (legal back then) which assisted in it's demise.
>>>BTW, the 2nd conductor on the 11 car trains in the 1950's was a hated element by TWU workers and it was a threat of a strike (legal back then) which assisted in it's demise. <<<
Why would an additional job be hated by a union? Seems to go against the nature of unions.
Peace,
Andee
I'm not sure as to why it was, but it was. Perhaps someone more knowledgable could comment.
Is it true that 10-car IRT trains didn't go to a single conductor until the R units arrived?
BTW, the 2nd conductor on the 11 car trains in the 1950's was a hated element by TWU workers and it was a threat of a strike (legal back then) which assisted in it's demise.... I'm not sure as to why it was, but it was. Perhaps someone more knowledgable could comment.
The TA proposed eliminating the 2nd conductor on 10-car IND and 8-car BMT trains on June 1, 1958. The TWU objected to the removal of the 2nd conductor. The matter went to arbitration. Theodore Kheel rendered a decision on Aug 1, 1958 that sided with the TA. TWU local president Guinan objected to the decision.
Check the newspapers from that era. Several statements by Quill and Guinan are direct quotes.
Also strikes were NOT legal back then. The dissident Motorman's Benevolent Association (MBA) was crushed the previous year. All strikers were fired under the term of the Condon-Waglin Law the Taylor Law's predecessor.
I wasn't aware that any law existed banning municipal workers from striking had existed before the Taylor Law was enacted after the strike in 66. I was led to believe that this strike was the catylast for such a law.
I wasn't aware that any law existed banning municipal workers from striking had existed before the Taylor Law was enacted after the strike in 66. I was led to believe that this strike was the catylast for such a law.
The previous law called for dismissing the workers. They could not dismiss EVERYBODY, so they could not dismiss anybody. The present system of docking 2 day's pay for strike day was the result.
Besides which, if the '66 strike were legal, then why was Quill jailed. "The judge can drop dead in his black robes..."
The 1966 transit strike......
My understanding of the strike was that it was based on a racial/power struggle within the TWU. A strike was guaranteed to happen because Mike Quill wanted to have one last act of defiance on his resume before he retired/stepped aside. He wanted to show the new kids on the block who was still in charge.
Supposedly Mayor Wagner and Quill had negotiated a secret deal that would give the transit workers a certain raise in exchange for a guarantee that the strike would last only a weekend.
And also supposedly incoming Mayor Lindsay refused to honor that "gentleman's agreement", either by design or because of lack of foreknowledge of its existence. His desire to bargain on his own terms led to a longer strike and a more generous contract (i.e., more costly to the City).
Can anyone with
a. An inside point of view
b. A long memory
Confirm or deny, or embellish, this?
THANX - should make for an interesting discussion!
The only thing I can remember about that strike was a photo of a subway yard, full of trains, on the front page of the South Bend Tribune on perhaps January 3, 1966. There was most likely an article about the strike as well.
Thank you
The R-143s and cars to come beyond that don't all have to be configured in five-car sets. With some three- and four-car sets you could have eleven and twelve car trains.
Also, the pre-war IND stations were designed to allow for platform extension. Considering how many stations in the system have been extended in the past, just extending stations for the E and F (including the Culver line) should not be an insurmountable task.
But the R143 will be destined to run on the L line only. It will take years and years to purchase enough new cars to equip both the E and F lines. By then, the 63rd. St connector will be picking up any slack.
I sincerely hope the 63rd Street connection helps. However, it doesn't add any track capacity within Queens itself. (The 1968 super-express plan would have added two tracks between Forest Hills and the 63rd Street tunnel.) I think in the longer term this lack of capacity will be a problem. The MTA 2000-2004 capital plan allows for about 600 new B division cars beyond the R-143 order. It might be worth considering doing just the E train as a first step.
It will increase trains heading for Manhattan by 25%. The G line basically wasted 1/2 the capacity of the local track, and the new connection and line should put that capacity to better use.
Had the NIMBY's not killed the conversion of the Montaulk LIRR subway conversion to a Jamaica super express, then the crowds of people needing the Queens IND would have alternate methods f getting into the city, especially from south-eastern Queens.
Yes, the so-called Montauk-Archer plan was a good idea, but the MTA took the path of least resistance. If you look at the Montauk line, there are only a couple of miles that are near residences in Glendale and Maspeth. The line could have been depressed in those areas and covered over, much like the Orange Line in Boston's South End. The neighborhoods would have gotten some parkland, the rest of the borough would have gotten needed transit capacity, and everybody could call it a win-win situation.
[ An 8-car 536' train of A/B's carried a passenger load of 2160 passengers. A 10-car 600' train of R32-R42's has a load capacity of 1450 passengers; an 8-car 600' train of R44-R68's has a load capacity of 1400 passengers. ]
Doing a little quick arithmetic: A/B Standards - 270 passengers/car. With approx 70 seats, that would mean 200 standees.
R32-R42: 145 passengers/car. With approx 50 seats, that would mean 95 standees.
Judging from available floor space, I don't think that the car capacity has decreased that much. Probably just that the TA has reduced the "crush" factor - how many standees could be crammed into the car.
I was under the impression that they did away with the transverse seats starting with the R-27s to allow for more standees (only 6 fewer seats per car than on R-1 through R-16). I seem to remember that the advertised capacity was 200, 50 sitting and 150 standing.
I guess that people need more "space" these days.
-- Ed Sachs
Not to mention that people have also gotten bigger over the years, if you know what I mean.-)
Wow, a lot of percentages. Please attach your worksheet to
the back of your test paper:)
Whence came the pax capacity for the 67' cars? Is it from the
1914 ERJ article about the cars, from some BMT document, from
a TA document? Are these numbers before or after the 1950s
rebuild of the cars which made some interior alterations?
According to your numbers, passenger load capacity on the R-32s
is 2.4 passengers per train foot while the standards achieved 4.0
How can we account for this dramatic difference? What features of
the R-32 design are causing this tremendous waste of space?
Assuming a car to be a free-form box, the entire floor area within
which being available for seating, these numbers amount to .24
passengers per square foot on the R-32 and .40 on the AB, or
4 square feet per passenger on the R-32 vs 2.5 on the AB. Perhaps
what has changed is the standard for "crush" capacity??
Re 11-car trains: At a lot of the IND stations, the extra 60' has
been eroded by the construction of utility rooms and what not.
You'd also have a problem on your hands if you needed to, e.g.,
re-route an 11 car E over the R to Whitehall because of a delay.
Of course, the discussion is moot because the TA's current car
equipment plans will not make 660' trains possible again.
On the TPH issue: The trend over the past 5 years to take the
Rapid out of Rapid Transit means longer trip times, which means
more trains to make a certain tph number. The slowdowns also
have a negative effect on track capacity but that isn't currently
the limiting factor.
Personally, I think the 63St connector will be a big loser. You're
right, it goes an extra 20 blocks out of the way, and unlike the
53St and 60St tubes, does not provide a connection to the Lex.
It will personally inconvenience me by reducing my travel
options.
[It will personally inconvenience me by reducing my travel
options. ]
I'm not sure if it will inconvenience me. But I don't see it providing a lot of help. I've worked on 7th avenue for the past few years, first at 42nd street and now at 30th. So it's at most a block diffrence between the E,F, and R. I found that taking the R takes about 10 more minutes. Of course, you can breathe during those 10 minutes, so it's not a horrible problem.
I've found that switching at Rosevelt saves less than 5 minutes, but lots of people seem to do that because they feel that the express will be a lot faster. In my experience, it isn't that much faster. But the public perceives it that way.
I have to assume that whatever goes through the 63rd street connection will be local, since the express tracks are already jammed to capacity.
Given those points, I expect the locals will continue to be mostly empty. They'll just come more often. And there will continue to be a crush at Roosevelt as everyone switches.
The local stations from QP-Roosevelt are not nearly as heavily used as those from Roosevelt to continental. Really to speed things up with the current usage pattern there needs to be a service that runs local from Continental to Roosevelt, then goes express. Of course, this would probably require building another track all the way to Roosevelt, and of course that will not happen anytime soon.
Every person who rides the new 63rd. St. train in Queens is one less person crowding onto the F. That alone makes it valuable.
A cheap fix for the morning rush would be to put track down
in the existing roadway which comes down from the unused Roosevelt
Ave station. There's enough room up there to hold 2 or 3
trains which could be used as put-ins on the s/b local track
at Roosevelt.
When the 63 St connector was first proposed, it was going to be
in conjunction with a resignalling of the Queens IND for bi(HHH)-
directional operation on the express tracks to allow 3&1 running
during the rush hours.
From what I remember of that tunnel and station, that roadway doesn't come down, it curves off in a different direction over top of the other trackways.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
When the 63 St connector was first proposed, it was going to be in conjunction with a resignalling of the Queens IND for bi(HHH)- directional operation on the express tracks to allow 3&1 running during the rush hours.
This presented a logical problem. Suppose the 3 tracks ran at 20 tph, then the reverse track would have to handle 60 tph. However, if a track could handle 60 tph, then the project would not be needed. Not wishing to loose out on $500 million, they quietly buried that idea.
This presented a logical problem. Suppose the 3 tracks ran at 20 tph, then the reverse track would have to handle
60 tph. However, if a track could handle 60 tph, then the project would not be needed. Not wishing to loose out on
$500 million, they quietly buried that idea.
Now you're starting to sound like Robert Johnson!
The math doesn't work out to be so simple, however. It is true
that if you had to maintain a steady state of 60 tph southbound
over 3 tracks then the 4th would have to handle the 60 tph
reverse flow. However, the southbound demand peak is only about
45 minutes long. By the time the peak trains have to come back
the same way northbound, the rush hour is over and you can revert
to 2-2 utilization. Some s/b rush hour trains never come back...
they lay up at various places such as City Hall lower or Stillwell
yard and then return during the PM rush.
The LIRR uses 3-1 routing effectively. It would have made sense
on QB but it does fly in the face of Transit's current signal
strategy, which has placed any other kinds of signal improvements
on hold until the Messiah (whose initials are evidently CBTC) arrives
As I understood the 3/1 signalling proposal, it included an element to take over a portion of Sunnyside Yard as a staging spot for pullouts and pullbacks in the peaks. This would balance the biased flows until the rush hour was over. Does anyone else know more about this idea?
I never saw a plan for the yard. I do know the plan was dropped due to cost.
As for the "pack on the Queens express problem," the solution is to eliminate the opportunity to transfer. Close-in riders would have not choice but to take the local to Manhattan, and take connections there.
The express stops at Roosevelt Ave and Queens Plaza could be eliminated during rush hours -- the latter because you absolutely have to save room on the Queens Blvd Express for the G. Queens local riders would have no choice but to stay on the local until Manhattan.
Of course those in inner Queens would lose the oppotunity to ride an express, or to get to East Midtown along 53rd Street, and those in Outer Queens would have to change trains at Forest Hills to get to Inner Queens. But the load would be balanced, and the ride from Eastern Queens would be much faster than today. More eastern Queens passengers could be served.
I think having E and F trains skip Roosevelt Ave. during the rush hour makes sense, although it will piss off a lot of people.
I've generally found that coersion does not work well. A better approach is to give people an attractive alternative that they will elect to use.
The problem with the QB line is that trains fill up in Jamaica. Any additional service at that point would resolve the problem at its source. Any measures taken west of Forest Hills are an exercise in damage control. An RER type service over the LIRR local tracks to Queens Village and/or St Albans and a link to the 63rd St tunnel would have provided such an attractive alternative.
RER? Is that like Washington's Metro or San Francisco's BART? I myself would prefer such an alternative to the crowded E and F trains.
The Queens Blvd line definitely needs an alternative line. And unlike Lexington Ave in Manhattan, there is a line that parallels QB, the LIRR main line. There's also the Montauk line, but there was a whole thread about how NIMBYs would scream about having subways on that line. Perhaps having an RER service instead of a regular subway line on the Montauk line would appease them. Since that line goes to Jamaica, you would have a strong alternative to the E and F.
RER is the Paris express subway that has been built since the late 1960's. At that time Paris had a conventional Subway-Commuter Rail setup. The Subway or Metro consisted of 13 lines that covered the City limits. The extensive commuter rails terminated at half a dozen or so railroad stations. The railroad stations were situated at the outskirts of the city that existed in the 1840's.
The RER solution for dealing with planned urban sprawl was as follows. Build a series of 3 separate tunnels that would link rail terminals on opposite sides of the 1848 city. There would be a minimum number of stops between these rail terminals and each would be at a major transfer point to the existing subway lines. Finally, these RER trunk lines would be extended into the outlying regions by using the existing commuter ROW's. The closest analogy to NYC was one of Pataki's proposals. Extend MetroNorth south from GCT to a stop in the Financial District then east into Brooklyn and join the Atlantic Division at the Flatbush Ave Terminal.
There are problems with this sort of setup in NY that do not exist in Paris. For one thing, you have two different states, and when money flows between those states it flows in one direction -- west. MetroNorth-LIRR through service could work in a number of cases -- to long to commute, but it might work for other things -- but power incompatibility blocks it.
The you have the destination problem. Suburb to city commuter rail works because you may have to drive to a station, but you can walk or take the subway on the other end. Suburb to suburb you'd have to drive on both ends -- quite a trick.
MetroNorth to Jones Beach service would probably be popular, but the LIRR doesn't go to Jones Beach, and you still have the power problem
I've always thought that one of the greatest blunders of the 1960's was not converting the LIRR to catenary.
I would not underestimate any management's reluctance for trying inexpensive solutions. I have been forced to justify my decisions from simply using "non-preferred" vendors to specifying clones instead of brand names, even though these options resulted in considerable savings.
I was exposed to an amusing incident some 45 years ago, while still a teenager. I was a devotee of a particular surplus electronics store in Radio Row. The owner simply tacked on a straight markup regardless of an items' perceived worth. This resulted in a lot of bargains. There was a fish scale and a sign: "chokes and transformers 10 cents/pound." The owner was not a hobbyist and did not know what could be done with the items he sold. Many times he would ask us: "Hey boys - how can this be used?" One day grapevine had it that he had received a shipment of some special transmitting tubes that regularly sold for several hundred dollars which he was selling for $6.25! A group of us did not wait for the weekend but got down there after school. The owner's chief complaint was that people were asking what was wrong with the tubes. The chief engineer from a Washington DC radio station called about the tubes, while we were there. The owner told him the cost was $75 a piece. He sold 5 and no questions about their quality. He then turned to us and assured us that WE would still get our regular prices! Finally, as was his custom, he made sure we each had 15 cents car fare to get home.
There are a lot of embarassing questions that could be asked of any management. One way to deflect such criticism is to proclaim the need for an unobtainable resource. The easiest way to make a resource unobtainable is by cost. Thus, the "we're doing the best that can be done under the circumstances" excuse. The problem is that they are believed too often.
Your point regarding peak hour only is well taken, however your comparison to the LIRR is not valid. The LIRR used to couple unused trains onto existing scheduled returns and deadhead them all day. 20-car trains are not a viable option on the subway.
Waiting for CBTC is more like "Waiting for Godot" than the Messiah. There are specifications as to what the Messiah will bring:-)
> Many times he would ask us: "Hey boys - how can this be used?"
> One day grapevine had it that he had received a shipment of some
> special transmitting tubes ....
Uh, so what did you use them for? Build your own TV transmitter?
-Dave
One of my friends was a radio amateur and used them for his transmitter. I used them for an audio amplifier. Those tubes had great harmonic distortion specs. They also took the chill out of the basement during winter.
Not MMS?
Whence came the pax capacity for the 67' cars? Is it from the 1914 ERJ article about the cars, from some BMT document, from a TA document? Are these numbers before or after the 1950s rebuild of the cars which made some interior alterations?
The 270 figure came from a circa 1914 BRT document. There is another figure of 260 at www.bmt-lines.com. These figures work out to a nominal 2.5 sq ft per passenger. The figures for the Paris Metro are 4 passengers per square meter. This translates to 2.7 sq ft per passenger.
The NYCT figures come from the Queens-Manhattan Cordon Study in the FTA Library. The figures are 110, 145 and 175 for 51, 60 and 75 foot cars respectively. This translates to a nominal 4.2 sq ft per passenger.
The NYCT figures quoted are apparently for scheduled loads. Crush loads are 180, 240, and 300, respectively, for 51', 60', and 75' cars.
David
Thanks for the info. This works out to about 2.5 sq ft/passenger.
Each seated passenger occupies 3 sq ft and each standing passenger 1.875 sq ft. Assuming the 260 figure form www.bmt-lines.com, the A/B's work out to 78 x 3 = 234 sq ft for the seated passengers and 182 x 1.875 = 341 sq ft for the standees. This means that 565 of the 670 sq ft interior space is occupied. The positioning of remaining 105 sq feet is important. The positioning of the 4 poles by the doors meant that this free space provided corridors for easy entry and exit. The use of 3/2 seating and the standee handles on the seatbacks means that passengers can stand along the car's longitudinal center. These techniques were not followed in R series.
I don't think "crush loading" is something to be planned for, unless we want the standard of living in New York to be similar to Bombay. A 75 foot car with more than 150 people -- 1,200 on the train -- is about as crowded as subways should be allowed to get. You shouldn't have to be pressed against strangers on your way to work.
Personally, I haven't experienced crush loading since the late 1980s, taking a variety of subway lines out of Brooklyn. Where on the system are you actually squeezed against other passengers?
>>>Where on the system are you actually squeezed against other passengers? <<<
Ever been on a 4 or 5 train during the evening rush? SARDINE CITY!!!
Peace,
Andee
most morning rushes on e/f after Roosevelt Ave.
There are really two definitions for "crush" loading. One is spatial, the other operational. The spatial criterion appears to be around 2.5 sf/pax. Operationally, one could define crush loading as the point to which the car's load materially interferes with the entry of additional passengers. The second definition is important because this threshold defines the ability to adhere to schedules because of increased dwell time. It also permits the car designer some latitude to improve performance with the same spatial constraints.
Crush loading is NOT a pleasant or safe experience. A "Q" train I was on last year came dangerously close to this condition but half the crowd emptied out at Church.
The last time I experienced true crush loading was aboard the "A" train as I traveled from Utica Avenue to Hoyt-Schermerhorn Street, between 8:43 and 8:55AM, April 28, 1998. R38, Car #4031. We stopped at Nostrand Avenue and half of Brooklyn got on, aggressively pushing and elbowing their way in. I reached for a bar and fortunately found a few inches I could hold on to but my body was being twisted round by the crowd. Good thing I was bound for Hoyt, because when the doors opened, people spilled out, just like in "A Night At The Opera". I waited a few seconds and joined them.
Of course, with this thread in play, I am sure Steve B. is going to ask me to replay the tale of R-6-2 #1277, circa September 11, 1973...
Wayne
No, there's no need to replay that (it's up to you), although your original post on that memorable(?) ride is a classic. I think we can safely say you had to be there and leave it at that. It still makes me chuckle.
I remember being on a D train of R-42s on June 14, 1978 which was jammed to the gills. I had just left Cityana Gallery with an R-1/9 bulkhead destination mechanism in tow, and got a number of dirty looks from passengers. After a nice express run along CPW, I got off at Fordhan Rd., at which point this blind fellow was asking for assistance in finding an exit. I directed him along, but when I was unable to assist him to the street, he replied, "Well then, f--- you!" Same to you, too, fella. Guess what? Two months later, I saw him again at Fordham Rd. Same circumstances. Not wanting to get cussed out again, I went along my way.
That Q train you were describing sounds an awful lot like the one we took in October. It was packed when it pulled into Prospect Park, then emptied out when we got to Church Ave.
Yes, it was the very one, R40 #4336.
Wayne
And it made all local stops, IIRC. There was a problem on the D line somewhere.
Yes, further on up the road, above Prospect Park, perhaps as far back up as Sixth Avenue itself. Remember the interminable wait at Brighton Beach. We must have been out there a good half an hour.
Wayne
Yep, I sure do. I even had to put my sweatshirt on, as it started to get nippy. IIRC, we were debating as to why the Q couldn't have picked up the slack and continued onto Coney Island.
In 1965-1966 the (then 8-car) Q Brighton Express was crush-loaded EVERY weekday morning rush hour. There was no need to hold onto a strap or a pole. There was no room to fall or even lean. As a 5' tall high school freshman trying to exit at DeKalb with my thick briefcase, I can still hear one of the passengers saying "Let the little guy out!"
(Q was crush loaded 1964 to 1966)
But then they opened the Chrystie St connection, allowing all those extra express trains, and Brooklyn services was great for -- about five years before it all went to hell. Thanks to the Manhattan Bridge, it has pretty much stayed there. The D/Q is the most jammed trains in Brooklyn, and there is no way to add more without cutting down the 4th Ave line even further.
1965-66 was a transition period. What kind of equipment are you talking about: A/B; D; R27; R30 or R32?
Probably R-32s. They took over for the Triplexes on the Brighton line in 1964, and initially did run in 8-car trains. The Triplexes wound up on the West End, where they ended their careers.
I compared the carrying capacities of the Triplexes vs. the R32's in another post. The Multi's gave similar performance, for those who might think that super heavy trucks are part of the solution.
Ordinarilly, management should have discovered that the R32's introduction resulted in severe crowding. One might have thought suitable changes would have been made in subsequent car design and possibly even a retrofit. The real crime is the the R143's will bring passenger comfort and capacity down another few notches.
(The R143s will bring capacity down another notch)
There is a whole shift to off peak riding out there, due to economic changes. Taking away seats is a missed opportunity to improve service for a growing number of riders. But everything revolves around the rush hour in traditional transit thinking.
More seats and greater rush hour capacity are not mutually exclusive. The worst design came 45 years ago, when the TA ran LV's on the 42nd St Shuttle with their seats removed. The design was a failure and was removed after a very brief trial. The NYCT designers have not learned from this failure and have tried to implement it on a more gradual basis.
This is a seemingly counter-intuitive statement. Since a seated
passenger requires about 33% more square footage, it would
seem that the design that could haul the most would have no
seats. Please explain your theory.
It's a question of usable space and defined access and egress paths. This is not a problem for the seated passengers. The seats are well defined and do not move. Controlling the positions of standing passengers is like trying to contain a liquid. Well defined tether points are required in the form of poles and straps. These tether points must be designed so as not to interfere with the movement of other passengers.
Let's consider two examples: an R32 and an A/B, without going into complete detail. Consider the cross section of these two dissimilar designs.
The R32 has longitudinal or galley seating. There will be two seated and two standees along the cross section. The seated passengers will occupy occupy approximately 24" of space; the standees approximately 15-18" each. This will add up to 7', leaving a gap of 3' in the center. Not all the center space can be used because there in no tether point present, assuming that there in no pole nearby.
Now, consider the cross-section of an A/B with 3/2 cross-seating. The seated passengers occupy 18" each. This adds up to 90" leaving an aisle of 30" for two standees.
In each case there are two standees but the R32 seats 2 while the A/B seats 5. A detailed analysis can be made. One can segregate seating and standing space. However, careful consideration must be given to design. I think I've shown enough to demonstrate that careful design can significantly influence usable capacity.
I wholeheartedly agree that design strongly influences capacity and
loading times.
I think your 32-AB analysis may be flawed in that you are considering
transverse slices through the car and concluding that the R-32
accomodates 4 and the AB 7, but the width of these slices must
be different. If you are using 18" across and 24" front to back
as the outline of a seated passenger, then the R-32 slice is 18"
while the AB slice is 24". I also question the figure of 2 standees
per slice. It has been my experience riding on crowded R-32s that
there are almost always 3 standees per slice. The stanchion poles
are in the middle and frequent enough that there is usually a
tether point available....sometimes in the form of an adjacent
passenger.
I always felt that the ABs would have had substantially higher
loading and unloading times because the 3/2 seating created a
point of constriction, and because of the fewer available doors,
however, I don't remember those in service so I can't say for sure.
I never proposed that my 3-2 illustration was a complete analysis. Any cross sectional analysis of this type would have to integrate over the entire length of the car to be valid. The discrepency between section widths would be accounted for in this manner. However, the crush load figures for both cars come to around 2.5 sf/pax. One seats 78; the other 48. The difference in car size is only 12%.
I always felt that the ABs would have had substantially higher loading and unloading times because the 3/2 seating created a point of constriction, and because of the fewer available doors, however, I don't remember those in service so I can't say for sure.
The AB's did not have greater loading/unloading times despite obvious points you noted. The 3/2 seats were furthest from the doors. The passengers usually realized this and moved to the doors in advance of the train stop. Also the 3/2 seats compartmentalized the cars. There was not a solid row of 3/2 seats like the commuter trains. It's difficult to visualize or describe. I definitely had a lot of experience riding the AB's so I have an advantage over you in this respect.
The door quantity question is easier to answer. Did you add up the door widths on each side?
The BMT standadrd were in fact compartmentalized. They could be thought of as being three streetcars in one box. Although they had three sets of twin doors side, which didn't seem to be a lot for a 67-foot car, the doors were wider than on any R units.
[ the doors were wider than on any R units. ]
Yes, but the post in the middle didn't help. They were essentially two people at a time, one through each door, which is about what you could get through the doors of an R unit or a Triplex (about the same size as the R unit doors, but a single door rather than a double).
-- Ed Sachs
Yes, but the post in the middle didn't help. They were essentially two people at a time, one through each door, which is about what you could get through the doors of an R unit or a Triplex (about the same size as the R unit doors, but a single door rather than a double).
You're missing a couple subtle points.
That annoying post served a very important function. It naturally separated exiting and entering passengers - keep to the right. The lack of conflicts speeded things.
The side door width was 5'6" the center door width was 6'8" (including center posts). The R series is 3'8" by contrast. Passengers hold on to the center pole on the inside of the car. The passengers holding on to the pole form a circle with a radius of around 22" This means that they block the entire 44" doorway on the R series cars. However, this leaves 22" and 36" for the A/B side and center door passageways. This translated into 11" and 18" lanes on the extreme left and right. Passengers used these lanes to move to and from the car interior. The desired behavior of not blocking passageways was enforced by design not by calls for greater discipline.
Double width single doors take longer to open and close. This was known when the Triplexes were designed. Their use was a mistake.
I wonder why the new LIRR tri-level trains have them.
They think saved a few bucks. Also, the few seconds saved is not critical for a commuter railroad.
However, with 40 or 50 stops on a subway run a savings of 2 seconds per each opening or closing translates to 6 minutes on the roundtrip run. That may well be one full extra trainset required for a route.
I still vivdly remember riding on the BMT standards on the Canarsie line on Saturdays and pulling into Union Square on an 8th Ave.-bound train. The train would be reasonably full, yet would empty almost completely, and people would exit through both sides of any given set of doors. If we were transferring to the Broadway line, we would join the mob getting off. There weren't all that many people wanting to board, so this may not be a good example. It's one scene which has remained etched in my memory.
All of the Q trains from September 1965-November 1967 were Brightliners (R32s), as were all of the M (Coney Island to Chambers St., exp. Kings Highway to Prospect Park), N, T, TT, and an occasional QT train. Most QT and all RR trains were R27/R30. All of these were 8 cars long. The Franklin Shuttle, which still carried #7, was stainless steel with round storm windows (I guess this means R11s), and were 3 cars long. The Q was the only one that was crush loaded (I do not remember a single one that was not) although the M was quite crowded, too.
I do not know about Triplexes operating on the Brighton line until 1964, but I had lived on Brighton 6th St. during summer 1961. The locals I saw from there were new, deep forest green-colored R27/30s. The expresses I saw were R16s (yes, R16s!). I did not remember seeing any trains in summer 1961 on the Brighton line that looked particularly old.
The ten-car D relieved the crush loading of the Brighton Express to some extent. But November, 1967 also was a shock perhaps not so much from the route changes (D and B instead of Q and T) but mostly from the downgrading of equipment quality on the Southern Division. The N lost all of its Brightliners to R27/30s and the B and D had a mix of them and R1/9 cattle cars of the former IND system.
[ I do not know about Triplexes operating on the Brighton line until 1964, but I had lived on Brighton 6th St. during summer 1961. The
locals I saw from there were new, deep forest green-colored R27/30s. The expresses I saw were R16s (yes, R16s!). I did not
remember seeing any trains in summer 1961 on the Brighton line that looked particularly old. ]
R16s did not normally operate on the BMT southern division prior to Chrystie St. In the summer of 1961, the Brighton local ran R27/30s and the Brighton Express ran all Triplexes except for two 6-car sets of standards which ran on the "Bankers Specials" (Brighton-Nassau) in rush hours and on the Brighton express mid-day weekdays.
I never saw an R16 on the Brighton line until after Nov. 26, 1967, when they started mixing with the R27/30s on the QJ.
-- Ed Sachs
Ed,
I was but ten years old in summer 1961 and was not then interested in trains. However, if my memory does not fail me, under the canopy of the Brighton Beach station on the center tracks were trains with numbers on or about 6300 with windows and doors similar to those of the trains running on the outer tracks, numbered around 8300 (R27s/R30s).
I saw the trains at Brighton Beach during mid-day, not rush hours. Is it then possible that R16s had replaced, by summer 1961, the Standards on mid-day Brighton Express? Actually, this would have made a lot of sense. The extra crush spaces of the Triplexes would not have been needed during mid-day. The R16s were more modern, fitting for a heavily used line. And if the R16s had doubled as "Bankers' Specials", they would have had easy access via Nassau Street to the BMT Eastern Division, too.
Your sighting of R16s may have been a one-time occurance of them venturing to Brighton Beach. They were not normally used on any BMT southern division lines in those days. They ran almost exclusively on the Jamaica line (#15) and Broadway-Brooklyn local (#14), occasionally being diverted to the 14th St. line (#16), especially during snowstorms.
-- Ed Sachs
I guess it was just my luck to spot R16s during summer, 1961, on the express tracks at Brighton Beach. It was only during weekday, mid-day hours that I passed by there. But it wasn't a one-time occurrence that I saw the R16s there.
I am curious: which rolling stock was being used for the Brighton-Franklin weekend specials during that era?
The R-16s still had their original number curtains prior to Chrystie St., so if you did in fact see them, they would have carried #1 signs if they were assigned to the Brighton line. There is a photo in the R-16 section on this website of a train signed up as a #2, the BMT designation for the 4th Ave. local.
I remember seeing QB trains of R-27/30s on Saturdays in the fall of 1967, although I understand the R-32s also ran there. IIRC, some R-32s did remain on the N after Chrystie St. Most of them went to the AA, B and D lines.
Can't say what equipment operated on the Brighton-Franklin Ave. route, although an educated guess would be BMT standards. The R-11s ran on the shuttle with their #7 signs prominently displayed.
[ I am curious: which rolling stock was being used for the Brighton-Franklin weekend specials during that era? ]
From Jan, 1961 until the end of Brighton-Franklin service around 1963 the Saturday local service ran from Brighton Beach to Franklin Ave. using Triplexes, signed as '7'. Saturday express service on the Brighton line ran from Coney Island to Astoria, express in Brooklyn, via the Manhattan Bridge, and local in Manhattan. It used R27/30s signed as 'Q'. After about 1963, the Saturday Coney Island to Astoria service ran local all the way (signed as 'QB') and the Franklin trains never again ventured south of Prospect Park.
Prior to Jan., 1961, the Saturday service ran local from Coney Island to Franklin Ave. using Standards, and the Saturday Brighton Express service ran Brighton Beach to Astoria using Triplexes, also local in Manhattan.
By 1961, they were no longer running the "Sunny Summer Sunday" specials. When they did last run in the late 50s, they used Standards.
-- Ed Sachs
One thing that happened when Chrystie St. opened in 1967 was that the Brighton expresses were lengthened from 8 to 10 cars, increasing per train capacity by 25%. The other lines through DeKalb were still limited to 8 car trains for many years after that until platform extensions were done on these lines.
I recall in 1965 there was a semi-uproar among Brighton express riders over the replacement of the Triplexes by R-32s. A rider's group wanted to keep the Triplexes at least until Chrystie St. opened and train lengths could be increased, claiming that the R-32s had less capacity and the trains were more crowded. There is some truth to this. An 8 car train of R-32s is 480', while four triplexes were about 534'. Also, the Triplexes had lots more seats (but probably no more room for standees).
-- Ed Sachs
I know I'm beating a dead horse over this, but the Triplexes could have and should have been kept. They had at least ten years of useful life left in them, if not more.
The D-types were quite a crowd eater. A 12-car 548' long train had seating capacity for 640 and a total crush load of 2220 passengers. By contrast the the 8-car 480' R32's sat only 384 and had a total crush load of 1920. So the passengers were 40% less likely to get a seat and they should have had to schedule 13% more trains.
It also meant that that when the longer trains finally came after Chrystie opened, they were 25% less likely to get a seat and that the actual increased crush load was only 8% per train.
Ever been on a 7X at rush hour. It's pretty stuffed.
The thread on passenger capacites is very interesting. I might suggest as an excellent reference on such issues "Urban Space for Pedestrians" by the RPA (Authors Pushkarev and Zupan). All sorts of theories on ped queueing, levels of comfort and so forth.
In the way of comparison, the MBTA standards are:
Blue Line: 42-59-95 (48' cars)
Orange Line :58-81-131 (65' cars)
Red Line: 50 (#3 cars) or 63-62 (#1 and 2 cars)-87-167 (69' cars)
The 1st # is the seated capacity, followed by the off-peak downtown capacity and peak-of-the-peak capacity. These numbers are used for planning purposes.
My own calculations based on about 1.5 SF/PAX (the threshhold of acceptable short-duration comfort) are 159, 224, and 260/267 (Red #1 and 2) and 277 (Red #3) respectively. This is probably what is realized at about 5:15 PM or so......
My own calculations based on about 1.5 SF/PAX...
You mean 2.5 SF/PAX don't you?
I won't swear to my calculations without re-doing them, but I believe I used 1.5 consistently. I've seen some Asian, Eastern Eurpoean, and Third World calculations based on space as low as 0.9 SF/PAX.
Breda used 1.35 SF/Standee to calculate the crush standee capacity on the Type 8's (154 standees with 207 SF of usable standee floor space). Plus 44 seated. Lotsa folks in one trolley. Hope they all used their Right Guard.
Of course these are EXTREME crush capacities based on theoretical emergency situations. I certainly wouldn't advocate such loading or publish these standards, other than for crisis management purposes.
3 SF/PAX is more toward acceptable, even in the rush hour.
BTW, someone told me NYCT used 110 pax/bus as the crush load of an old GM fishbowl in rail shuttle service. Was that correct?
The reason I raised the question is that I did a little sanity check. For the East Boston cars 159 passengers x 1.5 SF/PAX yields 238.5 sq ft. Divided by a length of 48 feet gives a width of 4.97 feet. The East Boston cars are not that narrow. I saw similar anomolies for the Washington St and Harvard-Ashmont lines. A figure of 2.5 yields a width of 8.28 feet for the East Boston cars.
Oh yes, you are correct. However, the figures that are used for such calculations generally subtract room taken up by the seats and cabs, as well as an ellipse for a seated passenger's footprint. Hence standee capacity is based on the actual room available for standees, not the floor plan of the car. I just used figures already available (updated when the new seating patterns were adopted in the Red Line cars).
I believe that Pullman may have done an employee crush test at their plant when the 01500-01600 cars were being shipped to Boston; I'm not certain. Since this was the era of "how many college kids can fit into a phone booth?" I wouldn't be surprised.
Also, during an actual survey last Spring, I counted as many as 117 people in a Blue Line car - there was room for more if the need had arisen.
Thanx for all the info in the thread - very interesting!
That "kids-in-a-phone-booth" test is the kind of actual hard data that I trust, more than a bunch of calculations. Of course I'm also the guy who turns on broken machines to see if they're "really" broken.
It is unnecessary to run longer trains.
A lot of extra capacity can be gained just by improving the
signals and the track.
For example in Moscow, at the busiest times, there are 40
trains per hour.
No wonder their system transports the entire population
of the city every day.
Just to add a thought here, regarding the fact that the old IND stations were 660' long. I have always suspected that this was to accommodate 10 car trains of BMT standards (or similar 67' cars) rather than 11 car trains of 60' R-types.
-- Ed Sachs
I'd bet that one of the next orders for the A division might involve single cars or a group of cars to be single cars (for the 42nd S, 3 and possibly 7).
As for the B division, perhaps for the Franklin S (assuming that the next orders will be 60', and the possibility that the platforms be extended 10' (I assume 170' platforms for the Franklin), which would allow 3-car trains of 60' to run on the S) and maybe run on the BMT Southern Division, and also BMT Eastern Division (9-car 60's are possible, without much protest...and perhaps welcomed)...
Anybody have possibilities if single cars are a thing of the past?
It's possible that single cars will be ordered in the future, but not in the near future -- that's simply not the way NYCT does things right now.
As for the R-142/R-142A, they're arriving as 5-car units, but are designed so a sixth car can be put somewhere in the middle.
David
In addition, you can take out a car for a 4 car set.
The Franklin Avenue Shuttle doesn't need 170' trains. The 150' trains aren't even full at ruch hour.
Yup, a total waste of $70 million.
Sorry!
I wonder when the R142s are going to be entering service and on which line because I would like to ride them once enough of them are in service.
Jeff Alterman
This question gets asked about every other day. They'll be put in service when NYCT's good and ready to put them in service, and not before. As I said to the last person who posted about this, many, many people have to be trained in the operation and maintenance of these cars.
Railway Age says May or June, and that sounds about right. Each train (Bombardier's and Kawasaki's) will have to pass a 30-day reliability test -- no problems in 30 days. Any problem starts the clock over again.
David
let us stop asking this silly thread
and let us redbird lovers devour in the
absence of the 142s
Long live the redbirds!!! When the R142s replace the redbirds, they will be on the 2 or 5 line. I've heard the 5 will be first because the 5 has the older redbirds.
The 5 line have R26 AND R28. They go as far back as 1959-1961.
R36Gary
Yeah and the R68s passed!!!
Yeah, but they took 35 days to pass the 30 say test >:)
*ducking and running....*
During the overnight track work on the Nostrand Av Line,
the 2 is terminating at Utica right? This is the logical
terminal............
3TM
PS It feels good to be back......
Why are wheel detectors placed at the northbound local track at Atlantic Ave(2,3)? Slowly into Manhattan I go........
3TM
How often are wheel detectors turned on? I rarely see the light on top of them blinking.
02/27/2000
Can someone explain to us these wheel detectors, rules and applications? Sometimes I too see the light flashing and sometimes not.
Bill Newkirk
When the White Light on the Wheel Detector is Flashing that means the train is going too fast and Must slow down. If it not flashing that means your ok and your doing the Posted Speed.
Or there's a problem with the unit and it thinks your going to fast so slow down anyway because hey, the machinery knows best :)
A Good example of that is the one On the Downtown Express Track North of 14 Street On the No.4,5,6 Lines. Because of a problem 3 Week ago My Downtown No.6 Was rerouted Express from Grand Central to 14 Street. As I was going the WD Was flashing south of 28 Street. So every thing was going good keeping the train at 9MPH but then when approching the switch the thing keeped Flashing. I had to slow the train down to 4MPH then It cleared So I tryed to take it to 8MPH then the other WD keeped flashing so I had to keep the train at 5MPH from the switch intil I got 3 cars into 14 Street. After all I don't feel like being triped and I do like my job and want to keep it.
It reminds me of the WD at Parkchester before they got the bugs out of them.
the one On the Downtown Express Track North of 14 Street On
the No.4,5,6 Lines.
They have a WD THERE? I thought it was just a GT. Oh well...
Wayne
Yes only is you cross from TK 2 TO TK 1 otherwise it is a GT.
Ah so, would that be for the infamous 8/28/1991 switch? If so, very good choice. They say lightning never strikes twice in the same place...
Wayne
Yes that would be the famous Switch.
Stef,
I see that you have survived Chapter 2 of dealing with #6688's steel dust. I am curious as to how it went. I'm sure you didn't finish but,
Was it as bad as last week?
How many chapters will it take to finish?
Will the R-17 be usable this summer?
I hope you don't mind all of these questions, but I am very curious about how things are going. Lou has promised me dust sample if I can come up with an old fashioned canning jar!
Karl:
Lou from Brooklyn and I finished cleaning the ceiling above and around 2 of the 4 fan openings. Lou & I were surprised to find that the ceiling panels are white on the top also. We did a lot of vacuuming, and, with wiring help from Jeff H., put two fans back into place.
We learned from our experiences, and cleaning out the second opening and replacing the fan took Lou and I about an hour and a half.
We have one fan that needs bolts cut for us to get it down. Of course, that one is a replacement from Westinghouse (Car is GE). We estimate that 4-5 hours will be necessary tom finish this job, and then the car will need a thorough interior cleaning.
This car will run anytime. However, we hope to have the exterior paint job done by the summer.
Lou.
Thanks for the report. It sounds then as if you are halfway done with the muck business, although those frozen bolts may prevent you from getting past the 3/4 mark, until they can be cut off.
I'll bet when you're done with the muck, you may have a full day of cleaning the car interior. It sure sounds like when you are finally finished that you will have a job that you can really be proud of.
02/27/2000
Lou,
My questions on the R-17 (#6688).
1) I assume repaint into original maroon.
2) Will sealed beams be removed to authenticate as delivered appearence?
3) I also assume installation of original rollsigns.
Bill Newkirk
BERA # 2341
If I may represent the Museum, plans are to retain 6688 in the 1980s modern redbird paint scheme. Right now, we lack certain materials which would enable us to return the car to 1955 (roll signs, vinyl seats, etc).
However, this idea is not out of the question, but has been put aside for all interests involved. It's actually much easier to leave the car as is when it left service then to restore to a look of 4 decades ago, because of the numerous modifications that would have to be undone (cosmetic and mechanical). Again, it's not out of the question, but we're not ready to do that yet.
If I had my choosing to repaint the car back to Maroon, I'd probably lean on retaining the sealed beams and still use the fiberglass seats, depicting the car in say, 1960. Sealed beams were installed in the late 50s, but I can't recall the exact time the fiberglass seats replaced the originals that were in vinyl. It doesn't have to be exactly in an as delivered phase since modifications were made to the car not too long after it entered service. I like the sealed beams, and they are a major function of the car. I wouldn't do away with them since they're a great visual aid in looking down the Right Of Way, particularly in the darkeness.
-Stef
Speaking of restoring the car, Jeff H. got a good look at the motors for the roof loovers (sp??). Lou S and I wondering if we could get them restored. Don't know what circut they are on or how the TA cut them out. Intresting to see what is up there.
Only thing of intrest (oustside of the dust) we found an inspection tag in the roof. Don't know if it came from a motor/fan/or the replacement PA's up there (they orginals were in the seats, another restore job?). Too bad the date had the year ripped off....
The car has to be cleaned up (interior) by the 3/10 for the film shoot, so we do have a lot to do next Saturday. If that wasn't hanging over our head we would have had some breathing space. (Sorry for the Pun Lou, both of us were sneezing black gunk Saturday)
I'll do my best to show up and wrap this mess up on 3/4. Lou from CT has specified a target date for finishing the car exterior. He wants to wrap it up sometime over the summer. Well, that's fine. I want to concentrate on finishing the strip job after the film shoot. Anything else that needs to be done, I will do.
You didn't like the black stuff? Now you see how I feel. You guys ran out of the car, while I took in all that muck. I like the sweet smell of steel dust in the morning (not)....
-Stef
02/28/2000
Stef,
I must express some dismay on your statement that the R-17 will be repainted back into the "Redbird" paint. This doesn't make sense to me, with all the work done to strip off years of paint and returning to the Redbird look. With all that hard work and sweat done on the car, it should be returned to maroon. OK, keep the sealed beams. But since there is a need for original rollsigns, I'm pretty sure someone will donate rollsigns if the word was broadcasted.
As far as the interior is concerned, until authenic seats could be replicated, how about just painting the current fiberghlass seats red just to suffice. And as far as the wall and doors go, paint them in the as delivered blue/ grey colors. No need to strip off the old paint. My idea is to make it as close to original as possible without spending too many man hours and money.
As a BERA member, I'm sorry I can't make the numerous trips to volunteer like you, Thurston and the others. I wish I could. But I would think twice about repaint into the Redbird scheme. If it was repainted into maroon, then that would be an interesting draw for visitors, especially on New York Days !
Bill Newkirk
The car HAS to be stripped and painted. Stef did some good work at getting at some rust and water damage by the number plate. One side is pretty much on the they stripped and the some torch work on the number 1 end too.
If we can't do a whole restore to maroon, leave it in redbird paint for know. Heck there are metrocard adds in the car to boot as well. Forget the seats, what do we do about the floor. Not to meantion the inside paint is all anti-graffti paint, very hard to work with (and I don't think you need it at Brandford).
The ceiling needs some minor work as well and this is some type of porcilin (?) paint too. Imazing what we the gunk we cleaned around the fan holes but near some screws paint has been chipped and rust is setting in (salt air I guess).
Anyway, right now her color is BLACK DUST, hehe....
02/28/2000
Lou from Brooklyn,
As far as those floors are concerned, the original 9" X 9" tiles are obsolete. Maybe acquiring 12" X 12"'s and cutting them down would do the trick. However that would be very time consuming. They stripped the floor in the R-16 up at Kingston. I wonder what they're doing a replacement floor?
Bill Newkirk
The floor will remain until spring when the division picks go in and we can get bodies up there. By the way I noticed some bickering of painting the seats red and have to ask if ours looked funny too. We from the start wanted the car to resemble the original look. We are using a floor paint red followed by the vinyl red. The floor paint prevents key scratches from bringing the black through while the outside coat best resembles the vinyl. That includes the stockpile of green side sign tubes, original BMT number signs and appropriate interior. 9 inch floors are more than time consuming, they are expensive as you are forced to buy 25% more than you really need. The final product will include the leather motorman's cab seat covering and the green backlit guages. Mods remaining are the COMCO mic plates and side signs. Numbered side signs are next to impossible to come by.
Actually we did a SubTalk Mini-Survey when the project began.
We asked which paint scheme SubTalkers would prefer to see the
car in, and Redbird was the overwhelming favorite.
Personally, I prefer the Maroon scheme, but unfortunately as
a serious museum we must play by the rules. 6688 is an artifact
being preserved in a museum, not a conversation piece held in
a private collection. Whenever we "restore" a car to a previous
condition we have to document the decision very carefully. We've
identified the following major changes since the car was delivered:
sealed beams, handbrake indication, NACAL door operators replace
original VAPOR engines, blue door fault lights installed and then
disconnected, delay-start in MCM control group, fiberglass seats
replace red vinyl, white bulbs replace green in side destination
signs, several generations of end and side sign curtains, changes
to the main lighting polarity reversing circuit, layup trickle
charger removed, batteries upgraded from B4H to ED80, variable
speed fans and dampers disabled, radio antenna, bracket and foot
switch installed, and, of course, several generations of exterior
and interior paint schemes.
We might be able to pick a time in the early 1960s when the car
was still in maroon, but after the seats were changed, if such
a time ever existed. Painting the sets red to "simulate" the
vinyl, ummm, let's just say that would get more laughs at the next
ARM meeting than putting multiple-unit controls on a ConnCo wooden
open car (right Todd? :)
Another factor influencing our decision is the fact that we have
all the correct paint in stock to continue the Redbird scheme.
Personally I think it would be amusing to repaint in silver-and-blue
or white. The latter is how I most clearly remember 6688 in service
on the shuttle for many years.
If you're gonna preserve it, then the color it originally ran in would be appropriate. What was that, olive drab? The "redbird" color scheme was only used on a few R17's before the whole class was retired.
02/28/2000
Chris R16,
Olive drab was the original color of your R-16's, maroon was the original for the R-17's.
Bill Newkirk
WRONG. Maroon was the original paint used in those cars when they were delivered. Did you read Jeff's post carefully as to why the car is being kept as is and that it was maroon at one time? Or are you passing judgment before you heard the facts?
The R-16 was in olive drab, the R-17 was in maroon. As for painting the cars in redbird paint, they were made over for the shuttle, as well as a tempoary stint on the 7 to replace the R-33 singles being GOH'ed. The graffitied R-17s were pretty much disposed of by the end of 1987 with the R-21s and R-22s. By February of 1988, the Redbird R-17s were the last cars from the old fleet of IRT singles to still operate. It's companions were either scrapped or placed in work service during this time.
-Stef
02/28/2000
Jeff H.
I don't know if you got those side destination flourescent lights working. If so I'm sure those tubes were a special color order, I am aware of a source of color mylar tubes that can be slipped over current flourescent ones. Unless you found a bunch of the old ones.
I guess the decision to repaint into the Redbird scheme based on SubTalkers poll reflects the current popularity of the color rather than historical significance. Which MTA logo will you use? The original "M" or the current one?
Bill Newkirk
The logo is whatever was on the car when it was retired...appears
to be the two-tone blue M from the photos I have. We certainly
would never apply the current logo, even if it were not the most
hideous traction logo ever designed, because it would be decidely
unauthentic.
The side destination lights never stopped working...the car arrived
with them functional. The green lights were a special order.
I think Gerry O'Regan from Seashore was looking for green flourescents
for one of their Euro cars too. Sleeving them out with mylar
sounds like a good idea though.
Btw, the decision to retain the paint scheme was not made based on
the SubTalk poll! It was made based on curatorial concerns that
I outlined earlier. I just brought it up as a point of information.
Redbird represented a relatively short period in 6688's life.
And who's to say, how many of the existing redbirds still in NYCT are actually going to be retained for the Museums in the NY Area? 6688 may be among the few cars to be retained as a Redbird. Even if a couple of Redbirds were to be retained, someone may attempt to paint the cars to another scheme.
-Stef
Use the new logo? No way. We'll use the original ones for that car because the new logo wasn't used until 1994. As is, I need to take down the advertisments with the new logo on it. By the time the new logo was used, 6688 was enjoying retirement for 6 years...
-Stef
This has turned into a realy long thread & I'm enjoyed ALL the posts.
So, I guess it's time for my 2 cents .....
I was under the impression that the R-17 #6688 was getting a little cosmetic work so she could be ignorred as we started an effort to restore some of the other RT cars at Branford, e.g. Standard, H&M, Mineola, etc. The LoV & R-9 were talked about as also needing a cosmetic work 1st too. It now seems the touch-up job has turned into a monster. Might the mngt. at Branford consider painting the R-17 in Maroon since they've already gone so far ... seems reasonable.
Personally, either would be OK with me: Red is the color that a lot of customers will be able to relate to. Leaving her pritty much in the state she came to Branford can be argured for also; Maroon would "look realy marvelous" and make the a lot of subway buffs happy. My wish list includes a R33 in World's Fair colors for her to play with. But right now I just want to see her get painted and would realy like to have her at least displayed outside on the weekends for all the customers to share in our joy.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, my vote is for leaving #6688 in its Redbird color scheme. I think alot of people (myself included) find the red body with silver roof and black trim very attractive and most visitors to Branford will recall that color shceme as that's the way the car was last scene when in service.
02/29/2000
Doug (BMT man),
Sorry, I feel I have to disagree with you and others who feel that #6688 be repainted in the Redbird colors. It just doesn't make sense to me that a museum repaint a vehicle into it's last livery and not a historical one. Take for instance Red Arrow car #8. It was painted a few years back, into the Red Arrow livery. But using the #6688 theory, shouldn't #8 have been painted in the Orange/blue/white "Gulf" livery, since that was the colors it last wore that everybody remembers?
I caught Lou Shavell's response to my post in which #6688 will not be repainted using the graffitti free paint since it's hard to paint over it. Of course one day if they decided to repaint into maroon. But down the road will there be the same volunteers on hand to repaint it? Maybe yes, maybe no.
Bill Newkirk
I guess I will put my two sense worth in on this one. I agree with Lou's decision to keep 6688 in the current scheme. I am also a member of Shoreline, albeit stuck here in Florida due to Uncle Sam's yacht club. Like mentioned before all the modifications that were present in the selected paint scheme must be in place as well as any that werent present must be removed. ANY modifiactions or backdating must be documented as stated before. One of my personal pet peeves is people who criticise projects at a volunteer museum who do not put in the blood sweat and tears that goes along with all the hard work done out of a labor of love. I do not direct this at any particular person and do not mean to offend anybody, and if I do I truly apologize. But you have to remember one very important thing, at least 6688 is saved, it runs and is in very good shape. So why mess with a good thing. Jeff H mentioned that current materials are available to finish and stabilize the car to prevent any further deterioration. And on that note let the beatings commence, LOL
Steve L
Steve L's post should be used to respond to all those who criticize those who preserve rail equipment. however if somebody knows the whereabouts of vintage car appliances, then such backdating may become possible. and would be worth exploring. other than that, if someone has a hankering for maroon subway cars, MTA will sell you one and you can paint it any color you want.
I never expected the color of the car to be an issue. Before people start making judgments, let them get the facts straight. Come up and see what we're doing and you'll get an idea of why we're leaving the car as is. Any questions?
-Stef
This is the 36th post to go up about the R-17 in this particular thread. That's a significant amount of information being thrown about! Everyone had an idea to contribute. It's really nice to be able to share ideas with each of you. I've learned quite a bit, made new friends along the way. Fortunately, I was given the opportunity of learning a new trade. I can actually say I contributed to the overhaul of a Museum Car Favorite. That car's got of life in her. She'll keep on running.
What really surprised me was the great color debate that took place here. Everyone has their preferences for color schemes and that's fine. For realism, we try to portray the car in the best way possible. The Redbird Scheme is symbolic of the big turn around in the NYCT system. We were getting out of a chaotic period when all was hopeless. Now it was time to clean up the system - the system that belongs to us, the general public. New cars were coming in, older cars were being rebuilt. I would not trade the improvements of the Transit System for anything else. How many R-17s do you know were cleaned up and continued to run until retirement as such? Not too many. While other R-17s were going to scrap wearing the colors of a graffiti artist, 6688 and 15 others were still running and were better than the rest. Unfortunately, there was no AC in those cars, and they were unrebuilt, so their days were eventually numbered. Cars like 6688 had 33 years of service under their belts and appeared in various paint schemes during different time periods. Critics may say that the Redbird Scheme is not significant historically, but I disagree and have justified the scheme as being significant.
The project in itself has taken up a lot of time. Since I started working on the car 4/3/99, I've spent 94+ hours working with the R-17. There's still more to be done. And it will get done eventually. Just leave it to me and the crew to take of business. I've expressed concern about the vast nature of the project, but I learned that a good project takes time. To make this car just right, we are taking the time to fix as many things as we can with 6688. She'll come out far better than before. Thank God for history, and thank God for Rapid Transit. The greatest accomplishment anyone can have is to preserve history for generations to come, so they may appreciate it in the way that we have.
Well, that's all folks. Unless someone has something new to add, I think this should be pretty much the end of this thread. Stay tuned for Chapter 3 of R-17 Muck! to be concluded this weekend.
-Stef
Stef,
As an outsider looking in, I still think that what you, Lou S, Lou, Jeff and Thurston (I hope I didn't miss anybody) are trying to do with 6688 is terrific. As I told you in a post many months ago, your labors are appreciated by those of us who are forced to look on at a distance, It wouldn't matter if you had to paint the car silver and put a blue stripe on it, as long as it is preserved. The R-17 is sort of special to me in that it is probably the most recent model that I ever rode on the Subway System. I know when you're done, you'll all be proud of your accomplishment, as well you should be. I personally will be anxious to hear all about Chapter 3.
Eye for one would be interested to here reports from Coney Island, Kennebunkport, and Kingston too about what's happing there to preserve some of our favorite cars. I even wouldn't mind reports from Brooklyn (Bob D's trolleys), Baltimore & Warehouse Point.
Mr t__:^)
Hey Mr. t_:^) I have a great idea for you! If you join Seashore for only $30 per month, you'll get a bi-monthly summary of what's happening to preserve our cars... AND you'll be helping to support another museum too. Not to mention discounts from the museum store, the opportunity to run cars, etc.!
If you join Seashore for only $30 per month
Todd, unless the board approved a major dues increase recently,
I think you mean per year, right?
No, it's a special rate just for Thurston :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Boy am I glad we're all friends here !
Mr t__:^)
It's for preferred members only, I understand.-)
Thanks, Karl. I can appreciate your words. When Chapter 3 is finished, you'll be the first to know about it!
Regards,
Stef
P.S. You forgot to mention SubTalk Poster, Doug aka BMTman as another influence in the fight against Father Time.
If you are going with the Redbird color scheme, which is a good choice, will you be applying the current-use black-and-white decals on the interior, i.e. doors, car # on back of cab etc. ?
They did that at the TA Museum with #6387, it doesn't look out of order.
Wayne
Wayne:
The white on black door numbers (1 thru 12) were on the car, and will stay as such. I have acquired a few of the door decals from the period - the black printing on white that says "Please do not lean on the Doors" on one door, with the same message in Spanish on the other door. While I don't have enough for all doors, it is easy to have more made up, especially when you have one for Staples to duplicate. We have plenty of the original M decals, and car number decals as well. So, the decals will remain as they are on the car now. However, while removing paint from the storm doors, I did uncover the original decal that reads "Passengers are forbidden to ride between the cars" I am considering leaving that exposed.
I would say do so, by all means. I remember the labels which had an image of a cop with his hand extended in a stop gesture with the caption, "Riding between cars is prohibited!"
Are any of the original "Please keep hands" "Off the doors" decals still floating around? I always got a kick out of the door decals on the BMT standards. Their doors were so wide the entire "Please keep hands OFF door" decal fit very neatly on one door leaf.
I have a set on my computer room door that my son obtained when he was younger.
Mr t__:^)
I've always had a dream of rigging up a set of subway train doors. Electric engines might be easier than pneumatics; you'd need an air compressor for that.
Lou,
You've been exposeing a lot of things on the car, chippnig paint here and there.... I won't meantion a fan cover and "break glass" here bits...
He's an adventerous lad trying to uncover the past.
-Stef
The modern black and white labels aren't going to be used on the R-17. 6688 never received those type of labels.
On the subject of the R-16: If it is supposed to be presented as the car of 1954, then the labels are really way out of the time period, 30+ years!!! 6387, doesn't look exactly authentic. Certain items like those slanted door pockets make the car appear awkward.
-Stef
Not to mention the roller curtains it currently has. I've heard that 6398 might get some earlier, if not original, door engines, in which case the slanted pockets would be done away with.
03/01/2000
Steve L,
I just read your post and I saw a sentence that made a mention about people who are critical of projects at a volunteer museum. If that was directed at my comments on #6688 I wish to clear up a few things.
I wasn't being critical of the efforts of the repaint, just the choice of color. As far as volunteering myself, I cannot because of obligations down here. I do, in absence of stripping paint, cleaning cars etc., have made donations to several projects such as the trestle project and the general fund to name a couple. I even donated some items to the gift shop and even a signal head to Dana Bowers.
Yes there are some railfans who do make comments who expect the best and don't volunteer or donate. There has been a turn around at Branford as of late. Things are happening to make the place shine like never before. Attention is paid to maintenance of track, equipment, barns etc. Even the Sprague building is magnificent looking better than ever and air conditioned too.
My apologies if any members or SubTalkers viewed me as a complainer, I too am a perfectionist and that's pretty much how I responded.
Bill Newkirk
BERA #2341
Apologies are not necessary. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's all right to dream, you know?
-Stef, BERA member #2633
Bill, I think Steve L understood your point from the declaimer in his comments. I have found this thread to be a very interesting read, and haven't viewed anyone's comments as throwing cold water on the subject. We are unique group of folks that have more knowledge then the average customer at these museums. With that knowledge also comes a pasion for a cars as they looked/sounded/worked at a particular time in their history.
I would have to guess that the museum mngt and it's curator don't have an easy time when it comes to making a such decisions, but your position and the interest of the others that have contribute to this thread is part of what the mission of trolly/RT museums is all about.
I feel lucky to be able to get dirty on RT cars at a museum, but without the financial help of those of you out-of-towners all this conversation would be mute. So, let me encourage you to keep challanging us, because we all want the same thing, another operational RT car that gives future generations many happy trips down memory lane.
Mr t__:^)
Bill, I apoligise if you thought those comments were directed towards you I am kind of in the same boat since i am away from Branford and would very much like to be in a position to volunteer again as well. I was involved at Branford when I was younger,(not that I am that old ,only 28) mostly helping my Dad who at that time ran the restoration shop. It just gets under my skin when someone who isnt involved at all with a project starts giving all types of criticisms without helping out and inderstanding why that project is being done that particular way.
As for me I am more of a streetcar fan but I enjoy Rapid Transit equipment just the same and would like to cogratulate all who work towards preserving any Rapid Transit/Streetcar equipment.
a TRUE perfectionist would learn enough about the equipment to know that as time passes in the life cycle of a car, changes take place in car appliances as well as paint scheme, if these fittings no longer exist to backdate the car, they have to be replicated or the car has to be painted to whatever era the car truly represents. To do otherwise will result in a violated "artifact" that belongs in foamer disneyland. The past is best honored with AUTHENTIC restorations, not plastic caricatures of that which no longer exists.
You bring up a good point. Sometimes it just isn't possible to restore something to its original condition. The main building on Ellis Island is an example. There was some debate as to what period it should be retored to. Opening day in late 1900? Closing day in 1954? Somewhere in between? The 1918-1924 period was settled on because the building had reached archtectural maturity by then, and the last great wave of immigration took place during those years. Besides, the tiled ceiling in the Registry Room had been installed in 1917, after the Black Tom Wharf munitions explosion in 1916 damaged the original ceiling. Throw in the third floors on each wing and the railroad ticket office, and an original restoration became even more out of the question.
Getting back on topic, what about the interior paint scheme of R-1 #100? Is it in fact original? I know 1689's interior scheme isn't - at least it wasn't the last time I saw it.
Bill:
I do not disagree with you about the color of the exterior paint. However, it will take time and money to bring the car back to the original color and state. The rapid transit crew at Branford is relatively young in age, and we have the skills and materials to take the car back. This project was to stabilize and freshen up the car. It proved to be more difficult than originally thought, but the enthusiasm for the project is still there. Since the car is mechanically sound, this should give the car 12 years before it needs another painting. In the meantime, we can stabilize and preserve other RT cars, such as the Low-V, the High-V, and our R-9.
I invite you to come up and take a tour of the car with me. You would be surprised to see the number of modifications that would have to be changed out - even things you don't see such as the hand brake indication light. Signs, green tubes, flooring, and seats are the easy part.
03/01/2000
Lou Shavell,
The last time I was at Branford, I saw #6688 in the barn with a lot of the exterior pain removed. Of course, it's been a while since I was inside and took a ride down to Short Beach. Please don't take my words out of context, I am just as excited as everybody else in seeing this car being spruced up. It's just I got a little ticked off of the choice of color even if it was a temporary one.
I remember when the H&M "Black" car first went up and although it was a temporary stop gap measure and a full restoration was down the road, the car was painted and the H & M logos were painted on for realism.
Do you have those green florescent tubes? If not, I suggested clear green mylar tubes that slip over. My friend uses them in his Seeburg juke box. I may even have an original rollsign, possible front destination. So if you are in need of a sign, let me know.
Bill Newkirk
Bill:
Thank you for your offer. I do have a complete set of original signs for the car ends, and have the two bottom signs for the side. I still have to search through the museum archives to find the rest of them - if they exist. If not, I'll have to contact Charles Fiori to see what he has. However, the last scheme that I saw the original signs in was the silver and blue. If I find a picture of the old signs on an R-17 while it was in the current color scheme, it would give us justification to change them back. Until then, she will be the Diamond 5, running from Utica to E 241.
[Until then, she will be the Diamond 5, running from Utica to E 241.]
Except on "NY Days" when she becomes a diamond 7 running non-stop to Shea (Willets Point) ;-)
Mr t
Yeah. I could never understand why he liked that sign so much. Shuttle designations and 7 designations are also valid since the car ran on both lines.
What about circular 5, Dyre Av to Bowling Green?
-Stef
>>What about circular 5, Dyre Av to Bowling Green?
Which is Stef's faviorte since he always wants to make the Bowling Green annoucment to get the heck off the car at the high platform ;-P
Comedian!! I have yet to do that. If someone isn't occupying the T/O cab on a NY DAYS Event, maybe I can be Lou's Conductor.... Anyway, I would want to get the passengers out of the car making a an offucual Trolley Museum Announcement. The best way to do it? The PA System which works very nicely. If the passengers fail to heed to my announcements the'll have to climb out of the car unecessarily in the yard.
-Stef
Keep it up, guys! I may have it read Not in Service, skip the high level platform, and deadhead to the end of the line and back.
HA! Not without me you don't. Wherever that car goes, I go with it!!! Hehehe.
-Stef
Chapter 3 of R-17 Muck!, will continue on Sunday 3/5, instead of 3/4, as my colleagues and myself had originally planned.
-Stef
How about signing up 6688 for the route it was originally assigned to, namely the 6?
Well, I don't know about everyone else, Bill, but I'd like to think that I'll still be around in 10 years. Lou Shavell will be a little bit older, and he'll be directing traffic while I paint 6688 up yet for another time. Doing the work depends on who's there to do it. Will the same gang be at Branford in a decade or so? Who knows.... Sometimes things change and people change too.
I see the great debate continues on with how to paint 6688.... Leave it to the curatorial staff. They know what they're doing. And let's not put the maroon idea out to pasture, it just won't happen immediately.
You don't have to be a pro to work on the car; there's always something to learn. I suppose that previous experience in the field of rapid transit is a plus. Learning is one of the finer things of life. I'd get bored if I couldn't learn a new trade.
-Stef
colors. It just doesn't make sense to me that a museum repaint a vehicle into it's last livery and not
a historical one. Take for instance Red Arrow car #8. It was painted a few years back, into the
Red Arrow livery. But using the #6688 theory, shouldn't #8 have been painted in the
Orange/blue/white "Gulf" livery, since that was the colors it last wore that everybody
remembers?
That's an interesting point. How people remember a particular
artifact is of fleeting importance. Eventually no one will
have actual memories of the car in service as that period fades
further into the past.
To me, there is little "historic" importance to a paint scheme
except to historians of paint schemes. Obviously, as an
accomplished photographer, railfan and collector, you would
be such a historian. What we attempt to achieve in the museum world,
however, is to make a connection with the average visitor which
allows them to experience and understand how the artifact would
have affected their life had they been around during the period
in question.
The actual choice of colors and patterns does little to convey
this sense of history. Sometimes paint schemes will reflect
the artistic mood of the era, but more often they were chosen
based on the whim of an individual. Certainly an opulent paint
scheme with many flourishes and details reveals something about
pride in workmanship, and then we start to get into the details
that really make an impression on visitors, such as the type
of construction (wood vs metal), carved moldings, seat cushion
materials, etc.
At the Shore Line Trolley Museum, restoration work is based on
a restoration plan that is approved by the Curator. Our
approval procedures aren't as formalized and complex as, say,
Orange Empire Railway Museum, but restoration decisions must be
justified and must work together towards an overall plan.
The present work on 6688 is based on a restoration plan to do
a fairly quick renewal of the existing paint scheme. The painting
of Red Arrow #8 was based on a more complex restoration scheme.
Brooklyn PCC 1001 was restored to as-delivered condition, despite
difficulties of reversing some modifications, because its
most significant attribute is being the first PCC.
That's up to the Management to make that kind of decision. The AB Standard has no chances of getting any real work right now until she gets space in a carbarn. Doing any major work with the car on the outside will defeat our purpose of preservation. The elements would undo our work. The Mineola was supposed to be handled by outside sources the last time I heard about it. H&M Car 503? It's getting occasional work by some railroad enthusiasts. Who's to say when this car will be finished?. I'd be an advocate for running the car down the line during a NY DAYS Event, but she's not presentable just yet.
Now for the Lo-V and the R-9: These cars will eventually get worked on. It's hard for me to say which car needs it more. I would probably lean on the Lo-V because of the age factor. She'll get some work done inside and out, and so will the R-9. The R-9 does need extensive interior work. This will all come in due time.
Doing the R-17 work is a good project regardless if how big or small it may seem. We wan't to improve the car, mechanically and cosmetically. In this manner, 6688 can be used for many, many years to come.
-Stef
I hear 6688 can sprint down the track at Shoreline. If I had to vote on an exterior finish, I'd say paint it maroon. Just don't opt for silver and blue. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but to many people, that scheme conjures up bad memories of the graffiti epidemic of the 1970s.
There's a lot to be said for a colorful paint job, e.g. a Conn Co trolley that's is now in a bright yellow is a hanson beast ! When she comes out she turns heads every time.
Mr t__:^)
I'm sorry you feel that way. Just for clarification, we're not saying that the car won't be painted back into the maroon scheme, it just won't happen right now... Lou Shavell and Jeff H. will know what I'm talking about. We want to produce something authentic, not something unreal. And what's wrong with the Redbird Scheme? Absolutely nothing. It's the scheme that best represents the car when it came out of service. There's no real hassle in maintaining it as is. Have you ever seen 6609's interior at the Transit Museum? Almost everything is right except for the floor!!! Someone forgot to do the floor. The floor was originally composed of tiles. The linoleum floor isn't exactly authentic with the vinyl seats.
The purpose of removing the paint from the car is to make our lives easier in doing repaints. Painting over the redbird paint would not have worked since the new paint would not have adhered as well. Once the strip job is done, we'll have little diffiucly in getting the new paint on. The existing paint was starting to flake off. The roof was particularly a problem since rust was starting to build up. If we didn't take care of that problem, in a few years it would have become severe problem. Get to the problem before it becomes severe, is what we had in mind.
One thing's for sure, anything can happen. In 10-12 years, the R-17 will get another repaint. That time, she'll be in maroon.
-Stef
As Jeff has stated, it takes much more than just changing a paint color to bring a car back to its' original state. However, there will be a very big difference when the car is finished.
We are not using the anti-graffiti paint on the exterior. There are two reasons for this - it traps moisture, creating rust underneath, and it is difficult to paint over. So, changing it back to original maroon, if we choose to do it someday, will be as simple as painting it, without the horrendous effort necessary to remove the anti-graffiti paint.
I understand that we have original seats for about half the car. If I can find them, I will put one set in during New York Days so that the people can see the original seats.
The sealed beams were put on in 1957. I wouldn't take them off, since they were put on the car at an early stage, and when the car was still maroon.
Lou, I'm glad Lou from Brooklyn was able to lend a hand as the 'usual suspects' (Stef, Thurston and I) were not available yesterday.
Did Little Lou get his cap that had taken the 'long way around' to Brandford?
Doug aka BMTman
I had a change of plans this weekend, unfortunately, and could not make it. The other fellas will tell you what happened. Hopefully, I'll be back on 3/4 and start Chapter 3 of Playing in the R-17 Muck.
Regards,
Stef
I'm sorry that you missed Chapter 2 of the muck, and I'm sure you are too, but I'll bet you're not sorry you missed getting that filthy again.
Last night, I watched the Washington Wizards lose (again) to the Miami Heat at MCI Center. I took Metro to and from the game. After the game, I entered through the enterance near the Chinatown Arch and saw a 6 car train to Shady Grove in the station. The last car was packed because no one wanted to go to the front of the train. I got on in the 5th car as an announcement was made that the train would hold for 2 minutes so people could move to the front. I doubt anyone oustide the train could hear either the train operator or the station manager so people still crowded the back. Why doesn't WMATA employee someone to be on the platform to move people along to the front and get more people aboard?
Also, the next Red Line to Glenmont was at Metro Center when my train got there. That is one long wait considering Metro knew there was a Wizards game that night. Why don't they hold a train in the pocket at Farragut North?
I never got the impression that WMATA likes to have any variation from their normal schedule. Particularly for non commuters. How often do they add service for special events? I still cannot get over the fact that they close up shop at midnight (earlier if you need to go to or through downtown) ON NEW YEARS EVE.
It always seemed to me that on MetroRail, the goal is order. Not service. Order. Works pretty well when everything is normal.
They closed at 3 AM on New Years this year. And, if they hold for how ever long the frequency (f) is, simply every train becomes f minutes late. All they need is a gap train to fill in for the first train held and everything will be fine except all the trains are now f minutes late.
I gess I ougt to spel chek my messaages befor cntributing.
Never did find out what the problem was on the Manhattan Bridge. This stuff never makes the news. Anyone here hear anything that wasn't posted?
We (WCBS Newsradio-88) reported it was a broken rail, that information
having come from our traffic/transit contractors, Shadow Traffic.
A broken rail on the Brooklyn bound track. Nothing to do with the structural work being performed.
I am wondering why Redbirds, Greenbirds, BMT's Bluebirds, or SEPTA's Yellowbirds are called "birds", instead of "snakes", or other animal names.
When I take photos on train, the first animal I think of is snake. Trains are running like snakes. However, when you name a nickname on trains, if you name "Redsnake", you will scare a lot of people, especially kids.
But birds? I still can't imagine why birds are connected with trains.
Chaohwa
Not sure where the "bird" nicknames come from - but when our Redbirds go round a tight turn, they really "sing".
Wayne
Actually they squeak. :-P
Chaohwa
Here in Boston the nicknames began with the delivery of the (yech) 01400s in 1963. They were painted in the state colors of blue, gold and white, and were "Robins Egg Blue" inside and thus became "Bluebirds". The next new order (01500s and 01600s) in 1969 were unpainted brushed aluminum and were christened "Silverbirds". A local MBTA type has christened their predecessors (0600-0754) "Brownbirds" though they were really faded olive green, discolored by rust. The order delivered in 1980 also got nicknames, the (0600-0669) "Bluebelles" and (01200-01319) "Orange Blossoms". Finally the "Bluebirds" were repainted red and became Boston's "Redbirds". The other Red Line cars got repainted red or were delivered (01700-01753) in that scheme, but the silverbird nickname faded away and was not replaced.
One more time, everybody:
Let's all sing like the (Red) birdies sing,
Squeak, squeak-squeak, squeak-squeak....-)
I would assume it's
Squeal
Why do they call us hippos? I've never seen a hippo hold a rush hour crowd. Never seen one travel so much. Which hippos have windows and doors? We are R68. (R68A too.) Resistance is futile. We are the going to be the last cars standing. (AND MOVING!!!) Can I get an Amen?
No. You will be the last ones standing still, of course - that's your normal condition. But you will be scrapped before you are 35 years old because you are 75' long and can't get out of your own way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"No. You will be the last ones standing still, of course - that's your normal condition. But you will be scrapped before you are 35 years old because you are 75' long and can't get out of your own way."
I would have to say that this is a "Rim Shot" !
Long live the Hippos and Rinos (R-46) ... customers my love them, and our friend Steve too, but not many Subway Buffs.
Mr t__:^)
You beat me to the rim shot button. I call the R-68s Lumbering Lardbuckets myself. All that needs to be done is speed them up a bit, even if it's 5 lousy mph.
When I stood on the Eastern Parkway platform 50 years ago, waiting for a Jamaica train, I often thought the "multis" crossing into the station above me and then departing sure reminded me of a snake or a worm. You would have to see it to understand.
02/27/2000
I heard the nickname "Green Hornet" but never "Greenbird".
Bill Newkirk
Those were the 10 redbirds that were painted green first (and later had the red painted over it, making them almost brown). It can also refer to the R-10's which had the same paint scheme at the same time in the late 80's
02/28/2000
Eric B,
I am well aware of the R-29's and R-10's painted in that same green color that is now being painted on some stations as well as elevated structures! But I never heard about the above cars being referred to GreenBIRDS, maybe the green R-10's etc.
Bill Newkirk
Somebody just made that up on this board recently, I think. So redbird is based on Blue Bird, as someone pointed out, and greenbird, yellowbird, and and even whitebird and silverbird are just extensions of that.
#8885 is a Yellowbird; actually, a finch, since she's yellow and black.
Wayne
Is her beak big or small?
(sorry, I'm studing Darwin's finches in school)
Why, she has no beak at all, just a little gel wand underneath from which she dispenses her beauty treatments to the rails when they get all covered with ice. Most of the time, though, she sits pining for her lost Redbird mate at the north end of the 180th Street yard...
The finch (the bird itself) has a short beak, like the sparrow.
Wayne
No, the R-10s never had any association with birds that I'm aware of. Maybe Thunderbirds would have been appropriate, the way those cars thundered along CPW on the A line.
I believe the bird came from the old BMT Multi which was called Blue Birds by the builder, so everything else was nicknamed bird. By the way a Hippo can reach speeds of over 20 mph( I mean the 4 legged kind)
[By the way a Hippo can reach speeds of over 20 mph( I mean the 4 legged kind)]
But not the multi-wheeled kind - unless you drop one off a cliff.
LOLROTFWMP
LOLROTFWMP
Eh, Wot?
Eaounxczp!
Laughing Out Loud, Rolling On The Floor, Wet My Pants (not really).
Ah, "THEY STOOGE TO CONGA" (where the phone blows up in Cook's face and he backs away from it, eyes wide with fright, only to back right into the waffle iron, which snaps shut on his rear)...
That describes LOLROTFWMP. Thought I'd have a heart attack laughing at that.
Wayne
That's the way it was with me when I heard Bill Cosby's Fernet Branca story for the first time. I was crying.
Bill Cosby, eh? Remember "Lumps"? "Tonsils"? "Shop"?
Wayne
But of course. Not to mention Fat Albert (Hey, hey, hey!), his brother, Russell, et al.
I always liked that part of "shop" when his teacher confiscated a comic book:
"You'll get this back at the end of the semester."
"Why - does it take you that long to read it?"
That's worth a rim shot in my book.
Cosby also mentions taking a trolley car on a scouting hike. Since he's from Philadelphia, it makes sense.
03/03/2000
That reminds me of a cut from his 1966 comedy album, "I started out as a child" (Warner Brothers W1567). He was waxing nostalgic about playing street football , which is the #2 track title.
A rough summation of this cut, Cosby tells of a wild plan that has a team member hiding behind a black Chevy, another waiting in Cosby's living room and for Cosby himself to "go down to 3rd Street....catch the J bus......have him open the doors at 19th Street.....I'll fake it to you!!
I don't know if these street numbers are true but that's from his comedy album.
Bill Newkirk
AFAIK, the first train to be named for a bird was the BMT Bluebird. The name seemed to fit its bright blue color and was evocative of speed, lightness, and perhaps the fact that it was intended for the elevated lines.
Likewise, the Zephyr was nicknamed after the Burlington Zephyrs (which was a trademark) which describes the west wind or a gentle breeze.
Industrial works are not always given names that are descriptive. Can you imagine the TA introducing the R-32s as "Silver Snakes"? Or GM calling a new SUV "Rolling Blubber"?
As to the name of the Redbirds, I asked around as to the origin when they were first introduced. The distillation of the comments I received was that the TA wanted some kind of name to give them, and since they were painted red, "Redbird" suggested itself, with a nod to the Bluebird.
The R-32 received a pretty accurate nickname of "Silverliner" ....
--Mark
IIRC, the R32s were originally "Briteliners" which almost seemed a pun on "Brightonliners," the Brighton Express being their first stomping grounds.
Actually, the R32s are Brightliners. The R38s are Silverliners. AND THE R68/R68A NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT Hippo!!!!
Would you prefer we call them SLUG?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How's about Slowbirds??? :o> !
wayne
Or dodos?. They couldn't even fly.
A few months ago someone in some thread called them lumbering lardbuckets. It fits...
Peace,
Andee
That was yours truly, thank you very much.
Then the R-68 are hauling the mutilated remains my murdered compatriots to further humiliation at the hands of the filthy homonids. I do not blame them. They are being abused by human society as are the majestic boars and sows of the Earth.
Now, I will rest the whole REVOLUTION (not televised) crap, and instead do a station by station tour of the subway, once it's taken over by the pigs. It will be in the language that the Boarsheviks will adopt when we take power.
Histay siay Oarklynbay Ridgebay, ransfertay otay hetay 6 ocallay crossa'ay hetay latformpay.
Histay siay hetay 4 Exswintonlay xpresse'ay to Oodlardway niay hetay Oaronxbay. Hetay extnay topsay illway ebaytm Nionuay Quaresay. Tepsay niay nda'ay tandsay learcay foay hetay losingcay oorsday.
That name would go to the R38, with their half-corrugated, half flat silver sides. R32s (as Paul Matus has also pointed out) were known as "Brightliners".
Wayne
NYCT is already nicknaming the R142 and R142A as "Millenium Cars".
How about Millipedes?
Hey, that's a good one. I'm actually raising millipedes and other little critters at home. When I see a millipede going about it's way I think of a train that's continuously on the move.
-Stef
Have you got any centipedes?
No centipedes here. Millipedes however, are like trains with wheels....
-Stef
As long as none of those millipedes have wooden legs.-)
999-clump, 999-clump, 999-clump....
RIM SHOT!
I used a millipede instead of a centipede as a variation on a joke I heard in junior high. Only with a centipede, it would be 99-clump, 99-clump.
1. Centipedes: Diesel locomotives built by Baldwin. Noted for 1-D-D-1 wheel arrangment. Owned by PRR (mostly). All scrapped.
2. Why?
Why were they called Centipedes or why were they all scrapped? I don't know much about Baldwin Units, I'm afraid.
-Stef
Why? was a guestion of why raise millipedes. No exactly a mainstream hobby. (ours excepted.)
They were called Centipedes because the wheels were continuous from one end of the locomotive to another - no gaps, like on more traditional units. They were intended as passenger units for the Chicago run but never performed well in that service; ultimately they were regeared as freight pushers for Horseshoe Curve, where they served until they were depreciated. Basically, the Pennsy got rid of them as fast as possible because they weren't very good for much of anything.
I think the B&O had a couple of them also - someone did, anyway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ceentipedes - Trains Magazine did a article on them in the 1960's entitled Mr. Essl's Machine, and it was the definitive story on the Baldwin Centepedes. I don't believe B&O had them, I thing it was the Seaboard Air Line.
The PRR class was BP-60 to start (Baldwin Passenger, 6000 HP), changed to BH-50 (Baldwin Helper, 5000 HP) when regeared for pusher/freight service.
They actually lasted to around 1965 - I believe they were traded to GE for U-boats. (Baldwin bought electrical equipment for them from GE - a departure from the usual Westinghouse - that may have been a PRR spec.)
You're right, it was the Seaboard. And keeping them until 1965 would make logical sense - equipment trusts typically ran fifteen years, and they got them somewhere around 1950.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Milleniumbird.....not quite the same is it.
See "rejoice"
Paul, I'd have guessed that that was the reason for the rebuilt IRT-22/26 class cars being called "Redbirds".
But thanks for your post clearing this intriguing question.
Doug aka BMTman
What kind of bird is an ACELA?
02/29/2000
"What kind of bird is the Acela ?"
Maybe the Latebird !
Bill Newkirk
Maybe it's a apterix. (a wingless bird with hairy feathers, as noted in B.C.).
Dodo?
I think the reason why they're called "Birds" is because they glide along the tracks and they can fly-speed wise.
R36Gary
does anyone know what the initials A.S.R.Co. appearing on a hat badge along with J.C. SPECIAL POLICE stand for???? they are on the hats in a group picture of men in uniform taken around WWI or before.i am trying to track down the police dept, subway or trolly company of this group.i believe one of them may be my grandfather who died in the 1916 influenza epedemic.would appreciate any advice as to which direction i might take to identify the men in the picture(approx 25 standing on the steps of a city building).they also have badges on their jackets, but i can only make out what seems to be the number 1917 on them.thanks for any help you may be able to offer.
Well, the S.R. most likely stands for Street Railway. The A. is either the name of the town or something like Amalgamated. I'm assuming you're talking the New York/New Jersey area here; based on that I would suspect that the J.C. stands for Jersey City. HOWEVER, by the time of the first World War all of the streetcar lines in that area were under the control of the Public Service Railway (PSRY), so that may not be correct. In a quick scan of Hamm's The Public Service Trolley Lines in New Jersey I don't find any reference to an A.S.R.Co. in any of the predecessor lines, so my theory may be all wrong. Anyone else with any ideas?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another thing could be Atlantic Shore Railway Co or something similar. We had one in Maine which is Seashore's Right of Way's prior owner, but JC Special Police wouldn't work there. Atlantic City and Shore Ry is another possibility with the extra lettering deleted because everyone knew back then. Good Luck...
Gerry